# Celestion G12M-65 Creamback Vs Celestion Vintage 30 for a DSL 40c



## Goochster

Hi guys

The Celestion Seventy 80 has to go. I've given it long enough now and it really isn't doing it for me. It seems harsh, brittle and trebly and no different from day one. I think the other band members are getting sick of me whinging about tone now so something has to give!

I play classic rock from 70's to present day pretty much always on the green crunch channel with a little added OD from my Boss GT-100 in 4CM. Then use the red lead channels for my lead boost.

So which my fine Marshall loving friends do I go for? I've been scouring the net for ever now reading countless reviews on different speakers and I think I've narrowed it down to.

Celestion G12M-65 Creamback
Celestion-G12-G12M-65 Creamback-65-16 ohm

or

Celestion Vintage 30
Celestion-G12-Vintage 30-60-16 ohm

I had an 8 Ohm V30 in my old Spider Valve MKII 112 and it wasn't a bad speaker but didn't blow my socks off either. It may well perform a lot better in the DSL40c though. 

I'm assuming that it wouldn't matter or make any difference whether I bought the 8 or 16 Ohm version of whichever speaker I get as long as I plug it into the correct socket? Probably best to just stick with a 16 Ohm speaker though as that's what it comes with as stock?

The money is burning a hole in my pocket so I need to make a purchase asap! 

Thanks all for any advice.

P.S Sorry I now realise that I've posted this in the wrong section. Could an admin move it to Cabinets & Speakers please!


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## Micky

If you install the 16-ohm version, it will allow you to also connect another 16-ohm speaker at the same time. (using the 8-ohm outputs)


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## Goochster

Thanks very much Micky. I'll stick to the 16 Ohm version in case I decide to add an extension cab in the future.

So who's for which speaker?


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## newplayeroldguy

I was going to put a Creamback in mine until I discovered WGS, then I was going to try their ET65 until they suggested their Reaper HP was also in a similar tonal range. So after long and deep thought (and seeing they had a Reaper HP 16 ohm speaker customer return on sale) I went with the Reaper. I think it's great.

Sorry to muddy the water


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## Micky

Problem is, there are SOOOOOOO many good options to replace the stock Seventy/80 with it is hard to choose.
Even harder to recommend something, because everything sounds better!

And it is the single most easy upgrade one can perform...


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## EndGame00

Have you looked into Celestion Alnico Cream? I actually like them more than the Creamback...


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## noise5150

I am also using my DSL40c via the 4CM with a HD500x. I replaced the 70/80 for the same reasons and I threw in a WGS Veteran 30 and it made all the difference. Its cheaper than the Vintage 30 and in many people's opinions, sounds better even though it its based off of it.


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## ken361

I use the Warehouse british lead it made a big difference also, really cant loose.


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## lordquilton

Micky's right, anything with a bigger magnet will sound better.
FWIW, I was in the same boat as you, and I went with the Creamback.
My reasoning was that the 40C is a pretty bright amp, especially with the stock tubes.
So I figured on taming some of that with the Creamback.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaJeX34hsSY[/ame]

Hearing them back to back, it almost sounds like the Creamback has a head cold compared to the V30. In practice the Cb sounds less aggressive than the V30 would have I think. If I was going for more of an attacking 80's hard rock sound, the V30 would be the one. I think of the Creamback more for classic rock for sure, not as cutting.

What I really like about the Cb in the 40C is how thick and woody solo's are. Fat and vocal but still open sounding on the high strings.

The other thing was the V30's chime was a little brittle on the clean sounds to my ears, whereas the Cb's are warmer and sweeter imho.

It's true, you can't really lose, just take the plunge!


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## Micky

Another speaker to avoid is the Rocket 50.
It, like the Seventy/80 has a rather limited range, and is an inexpensive speaker Marshall and some others choose to install in order to keep the costs down.

Not to say these are 'bad' speakers, but in the DSL40c with a partial open back there are better alternatives.

I heard a 2X12 with Seventy/80's installed, and I thought it sounded great. Maybe in a semi-open back combo these aren't the right choice.


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## Goochster

Thanks all I think I'm sold on the creamback!


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## keennay

Goochster said:


> Thanks all I think I'm sold on the creamback!



That's a solid choice!

This thread reminds me of how I wish Guitar Center and/or other music shops had a 'speaker test' room where you could plug your amp to a speaker-jack wall outlet and toggle between multiple speaker pairings.


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## tschrama

New speakers are going to sound horrid. The 70-80s are in fact very balanced speakers. I am about to unload my cab with the replacement V30's and T75s and put the 70-80s back in.....


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## Goochster

Thanks guys for your help so far.

I'm about to order my Celestion G12M-65 Creamback.

I've noticed that the Seventy 80 only has 4 screw for mounting whereas the creamback has 8. I assume because it's slightly heavier. Sorry if this is a dumb question but I've never mounted a new speaker before. 

Will the new speaker come with the relevant 8 screws for mounting or do I have to source them? If they don't come with the new speaker would the existing 4 screws be sufficient to mount the creamback or is that an accident waiting to happen?


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## Bownse

IIRC They're more of a bolt-like fastener (no pointy end/semi-pointy end). I reused the 4 from the 70/80 in my G12M-75 and so far so good.


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## Goochster

Thanks Bownse

You do mean G12H-75?

If yes the G12H-75 you have is 2.5 lb's heavier than the G12M-65 so I should be ok.


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## Gene Ballzz

FWIW, Musicians Friend sells/ships most models of WGS for the same price as WGS, but with free shipping. I really feel bad about cheating WGS out of the extra profit they gain by selling direct, but hey, $20-ish is $20-ish!
Just Sayin'
Gene


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## Bownse

Goochster said:


> Thanks Bownse
> 
> You do mean G12H-75?
> 
> If yes the G12H-75 you have is 2.5 lb's heavier than the G12M-65 so I should be ok.



75w Creamback. What ever the alphabet soup is.


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## dreyn77

We can't educate the guy in 5 minutes tscharma. oh well I guess he needs to learn the hardway that marshall knows best.

you're buying a speaker that makes every note into a treble pitch note and then they dull off that trebles some. 
this is a speaker that is to be used by guys who can't stand their original greenback speaker sound. 
but you should know that the great guitarist yngwie malmstein still goes for speakers which are WAY darker then the creambacks. 

speakers much closer to your original amps speakers.  

what you're lacking is years of experience playing the old amps to know how GREAT your amps speakers really are. 
marshall and celestion knows more than you and you should trust their judgement. 

if you're not running the early pickups, then don't bother with the early speakers.


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## Goochster

Thanks dreyn77

I appreciate your input, I really do. It's always good to hear the counter arguments too.

If replacing the Seventy 80 with the Creamback is such a bad idea why did Sweetwater sell an upgraded version of the DSL40c with one installed?

Marshall DSL40CST with Celestion Creamback Speaker - 1x12" 40-watt 2-Channel Tube Combo | Sweetwater.com

BTW I'm not just looking to upgrade the stock speaker because others are doing it. I can't even begin to tell you how long I've been researching this upgrade, I think I've probably read every "DSL40c speaker upgrade" post on the Internet...lol.

I wouldn't of known of other people doing it if I wasn't dissatisfied with the harsh, brittle and trebly tone I'm getting. I'm no expert, I just want to tame it a bit and thought the G12M-65w Creamback might be my best option.

Am I making a bad move here with this speaker upgrade? Are all the others that upgraded their DSL40c speakers wrong?


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## lordquilton

Don't mind Dreyn, Goochster.
He's just on his usual soapbox. Depending on what day it is, the soapbox may or may not occupy a physical space in this dimension, so it's inherent value for the people of Earth fluctuates wildly. Salt helps.

Lot's of manufacturers use the Seventy 80 (or a tweaked variation) for mass produced amps.
For _what they cost_, they are quite good. But I do believe they are speakers made to a price point rather than outstanding audio response. "Marshall knows better"... how to make money by using decent speakers to keep the price competitive.

Last time I looked, a Seventy 80 streeted for about half the cost of a V30 or a Creamback. Are you making a mistake/ Is it worth the extra?
Only you can answer that. I put the Seventy 80 back in my DSL 40C recently just for kicks. Like I said on the DSL 40C thread, if I was stranded on a desert island and could only use the stock speaker, I would not lose any sleep over it.

That said, for me the Creamback has paid for itself many times over in the enjoyment I get from it every day.


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## MarshallDog

Goochster said:


> Thanks dreyn77
> 
> If replacing the Seventy 80 with the Creamback is such a bad idea why did Sweetwater sell an upgraded version of the DSL40c with one installed?
> 
> Marshall DSL40CST with Celestion Creamback Speaker - 1x12" 40-watt 2-Channel Tube Combo | Sweetwater.com
> 
> Because he is apparently much smarter than several thousand people who have upgraded to the creamback and all the people who work at Sweetwater I changed mine out a few years ago as soon as I got it and have never looked back, love it!!! It was before many started doing it and way before Sweetwater did.


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## Goochster

Hey thanks again all for some fantastic advice! 

I've asked my local Celestion dealer for a lead time on the Creamback.


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## dreyn77

Well mister middleman money grabber sweetwater, please explain why marshall released the DSL100watt (or was it a 50 watt) combo without a creamback or a 70/80? 

celestion has explained the sound of the greenback and then the sound of the creamback is based off that explaination and all I EVER DO is point out what the maker has said and done and guys seem to think it's ALL MY FAULT.
somehow I've had something to do with the speaker or the amp/pedal/pickup etc... 

or, I'm on a soap box. 

NO! you guys are getting robbed all the time and I'm defending you and trying to help you understand what's already been said to the world from the maker. 
stop buying into strangers advertising and money grabbing off you and save the family you have. 

you could just accept the orginal speaker choice and go spend $150 on somebody in your family. make them happy!  
why give that money to some dingbat who will keep doing the same trick forever? 

your amp is disposeable. all amps are! your guitar is also disposeable, all guitars are. they're made from wood. it never lasts. it's just bendy strings. 
woopee! it's not a steinway piano.  

where you gonna trade the amp once you're done with it? the sweetwater dude like people have all banded together to offer us all NOTHING for the amps. ? 

they're not our friends.


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## dreyn77

once again the celestion quote is; the greenback makes 'trebles'. 

SO if the creamback dulls those trebles, what sound IS THAT???? 

quazi mids??? 
who knows?? 

it doesn't leave us with much of an explaination. if it doesn't make trebles from a treble speaker design, then what sound are you buying?


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## dreyn77

you're not shifting into great sound with this speaker, NO, you're shifting into DULL trebles sound. 

is that good? why did the speakers originally die inproduction? maybe cause people realised the sound was just DULL, like a giant blanket was put over the speakers kinda sound.


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## Bownse

> you're shifting into DULL trebles sound.


Wow!

Have you actually USED a CB? From actual experience, I don't get that at all.

My experience with a Creamback is like that described here.

http://www.harmonycentral.com/expert-reviews/celestion-g12h-75-creamback-guitar-speaker


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## dreyn77

well just play the johan segeborn clip where he demos the speakers in youtube. the sound is DULL. end of story. 

they just increased the amount of wool fibers in the cone and totally deadened the sound out of the greenback speaker model and put a creamback plastic cover on the back. 

it's very difficult for guys to tell when they're running 100 watt amps. 

it's all celestions fault! 

I run the g12 100 k's and they are the most bass speaker possible, but they make a sound that seems like there's lots of trebles in the sound, but it's not. the trebles are the bass part of the trebles sound. play a high pitch thin string note and those trebles die real quick. they're not actually trebles.


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## Bownse

You do understand how the device used to record the video and the upload/playback process on Youtube "colors" the sound. Right?

I've done a lot of audio video evaluations or lots of things, including aftermarket exhaust systems for cars and motorcycles. At best you can only provide an A/B sample and the numbers from a DB Meter. It's NEVER the same as the direct experience of face time with the product.

Musicians have chased sound reproduction since the beginning. It may get close but it's never the same as the live performance.

This is that; my face time with the G12H-75 differs from your Youtube experiences. That's where personal opinions step in though and everyone can have as many as they deem necessary.


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## MarshallDog

Goochster said:


> Hey thanks again all for some fantastic advice!
> 
> I've asked my local Celestion dealer for a lead time on the Creamback and can't wait to get my hands on it!



Not sure where you live but give Avatar Speaker a call. The guy is great and is the largest dealer of Celestions in the USA and has the absolute best price hands down. matter of fact, he does not even list his prices on line the last I knew due to his low prices because he buys them in qtys of 1000's. Her is his number:

*Avatar Speakers*
5872 Government Way
Unit 406
Dalton Gardens, ID 83815
(208) 762-5251

I bought two a few months back and his price 278.00 which included shipping, cant beat that.


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## SG~GUY

ya should of gotten a GREENBACK or 2...


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## lordquilton

A 25 watt speaker in a 40 watt amp?
Or build a second speaker cabinet to the same dimensions as the combo just so you could run 2 Greenbacks?
Creamback FFS.


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## Goochster

Hi guys

I've got the new Creamback installed and so far so good! 

Now, I've got a band practise tomorrow night and I'm not really going to get any time to gently break the speaker in at low volume. I'm currently playing some low volume rock music through it for a few hours.

We're not the loudest rock band in the world anyway but could I do any damage by cranking it up so soon after being installed, without it being played through for a considerable amount of time at lower volumes?

Also my Seventy 80 used to hiss a bit on the red channels getting worse as you turned up the gain and volume, but I don't recall any on the green channels. With the Creamback I've noticed hiss on the green channels too starting at fairly low volumes. Is this normal and part of it breaking in?

Besides the hiss though it sounds awesome out of the box!


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## Goochster

I've just got back from band practise and this speaker sounds amazing compared to the Seventy 80. Like night and day. So glad I took the plunge.

Thanks all for your help. I'll retire this thread now. 
**


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## booger007

I also have the 65 watt Creamback in my DSL 40. Good speaker for this amp for sure


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## SG~GUY

yeah that's right,..

......25w GREENBACK in a 40w amp

-crazy aint it!!!-








lordquilton said:


> A 25 watt speaker in a 40 watt amp?
> Or build a second speaker cabinet to the same dimensions as the combo just so you could run 2 Greenbacks?
> Creamback FFS.


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## Hildo

Hi guys 

About this creamback discussion. Some one mentioned Johan Segeborns YouTube video. Is that speaker in fact a newer g12m65 or is it the older version of that speaker.
I swapped mine in my DSL 40c. I also added a choke and a classic tone OT and that speaker is anything but dull now.


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## Mcfc_Marshall

Does it HAVE to be celestion? Why not go down the eminence root and go for a patriot speaker, i hear they are absolutely killer.


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## SG~GUY

you have heard a patriot for yourself?

or hear say?







Mcfc_Marshall said:


> Does it HAVE to be celestion? Why not go down the eminence root and go for a patriot speaker, i hear they are absolutely killer.


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## EndGame00

If you're looking for a 50-watt "greenback" that sounded like an aged, fully broken greenies, Celestion Lynchback...


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## Mcfc_Marshall

SG~GUY said:


> you have heard a patriot for yourself?
> 
> or hear say?



Yeah what I meant, was i heard they're good in a JCM2000 combos from an old guitar tech who used one in his, ..but yeh, i have heard the patriot and played through one in an old Marshall 1922 cab. Think they sound great.


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## mbornhorst23

I can honestly say from experience that WGS speakers are superior to any Celestion. Not to mention they are less expensive and made in the U.S.A. You really can't go wrong with any of their products. I have a Veteran 30 in my DSL40C and it just rocks. I also have paired together a WGS ET65 and G12C/S in my Fender Twin Reverb. Absolutely money! I'll never buy another speaker not made by WGS.


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## ken361

WSG are good


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