# Origin 20 Head Gut Shots!!!!



## Michael Roe

Here you go!!!
How about these nuts, lol


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## trovador

Cool. Thanks!


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## hpharley90

Reminds me of my 5 watt blackstar...that 5 watt had alot of those vertical capacitor just like the origin.


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## el_bastardo

Not bad. Like any other modern Marshall. 

And look at all those transistors and chips! Noice.


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## SGFA

Thanks for sharing, looks well done but I'm no expert on the inside of an amp. So how does it sound finally?


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## Gene Ballzz

For those who understand what they're looking at, the only "transistors and chips" are part of the switching system and buffering the effects loop and line out! A close up of the sticker on the PT would be nice!
Thanks, You Win The Race!
Gene


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## Gene Ballzz

Interesting that it has a different output transformer than the DSL 20CR?
Just Observin'
Gene


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## Michael Roe

In about a half hour or so I get to turn it on. I am in our studio which is in an office building so I have to wait till after 5:30 PM....IT IS KILLING ME!!!!!
I will post a vid some time this evening or tomorrow.


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## Micky

Looks like it has MOSFets for the PI...


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## BanditPanda

Micky said:


> Looks like it has MOSFets for the PI...



ok..the second family of transistors along with BJTs.
What are the implications, if you are correct?
BP


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## BanditPanda

So by looking at those pics are you able to answer the question from Bloodrock...
"I’m hearing that the Origins boost is solid state clipping? Anyone know if that’s true?"


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## SpHj

Snazzy, I wonder how the 50 differs


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## ricksconnected

in


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## paul-e-mann

Looks exactly how I thought it would. Nice!


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## Ghostman

Looks promising. No SMC, which is a huge bonus for the Mod-heads out there.


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## aussiebluesville

Im no expert but i dont see a bias pot either on the origin.
Just like the dsl20 ...plug and play? Cathode bias on all origin i wonder


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## Michael Roe

Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
What a bummer


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## frankyfal

Michael Roe said:


> Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
> I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer


Sorry you got a defective speaker jack. You sig says you have a dsl20h. Does the origin sound like the classic channel at all and vice versa?


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## Michael Roe

frankyfal said:


> Sorry you got a defective speaker jack. You sig says you have a dsl20h. Does the origin sound like the classic channel at all and vice versa?


 Remember this is "My opinion".....I think the DSL 20HR is worth twice the money as the Origin ...now that I have both ( for a minute). Yeah, the speaker jack issue aside, The DSL's power amp is much better. And, yes, to me a way more convincing "Plexi" tone from the Classic gain Ch of the DSL. Now, some guys who favor a more JTM / Clapton style may actually like it. When I say "Plexi" I think AC/DC so keep that it mind.
Now after experiencing both, if a friend asked me which one he should get and he wanted to play AC/DC along with anything up to Djent....GET THE DSL!!!!!
This sucks really, I wanted and hoped to like this one. I may just get the new DSL 100HR instead.


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## grainman

..


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## Michael Roe

grainman said:


> the 8 ohms jacks may require 2 cabs to be plug at the time..just sayin


Yeah exactly...not my first rodeo with a tube amp.


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## grainman

Michael Roe said:


> Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
> I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer


the 8 ohms jacks may require 2 cabs to be plug at the time..just sayin


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## JohnH

It looks like clean, modern construction, and the components are through-hole, big enough to see, so seems good to me!


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## frankyfal

Michael Roe said:


> Remember this is "My opinion".....I think the DSL 20HR is worth twice the money as the Origin ...now that I have both ( for a minute). Yeah, the speaker jack issue aside, The DSL's power amp is much better. And, yes, to me a way more convincing "Plexi" tone from the Classic gain Ch of the DSL. Now, some guys who favor a more JTM / Clapton style may actually like it. When I say "Plexi" I think AC/DC so keep that it mind.
> Now after experiencing both, if a friend asked me which one he should get and he wanted to play AC/DC along with anything up to Djent....GET THE DSL!!!!!
> This sucks really, I wanted and hoped to like this one. I may just get the new DSL 100HR instead.


Thanks.


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## slagg

Rock with your cock out "GET THE DSL" LOL


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## EndGame00

So, you're saying it's closer to the Bluesbreaker on full power, tonewise?


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## Michael Roe

EndGame00 said:


> So, you're saying it's closer to the Bluesbreaker on full power, tonewise?


That would be my take on it.


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## Michael Roe

Just in case you guys wondered....after a few beers and getting over my Origin depression.....My newly acquired Budda Superdrive 45 smokes both those amps...DSL & Origin.....


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## ken361

I want a bugera 1960 plexi 400.00 they rip! I knew the origin wasnt really a plexi from the videos my dsl40c crunch will blow its nuts off the 50 watter might be better with some power backing it


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## Michael Roe

ken361 said:


> I want a bugera 1960 plexi 400.00 they rip! I knew the origin wasnt really a plexi from the videos my dsl40c crunch will blow its nuts off the 50 watter might be better with some power backing it


My brother has one sitting across the room....I agree, it sounds more like a plexi but, it is LOUD!!!!!


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## ken361

Michael Roe said:


> My brother has one sitting across the room....I agree, it sounds more like a plexi but, it is LOUD!!!!!


yeah ya need to attenuate it how do you like it?


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## DannyB

Micky said:


> Looks like it has MOSFets for the PI...



Thanks for pointing that out. It’s also very disappointing.


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## ken361

PI drives the power tubes so Mosfets make it sound more solid state?


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## Micky

ken361 said:


> PI drives the power tubes so Mosfets make it sound more solid state?


It IS solid state.
This looks like a disturbing trend...


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## Michael Roe

The Bugera 1960....I think it sounds pretty darn good. I don't know how reliable it is but put a tube screamer in front or a Friedman Dirty Shirley and it sounds quit good. BTW, my brother who owns it is a bass player and he bought it to use for bass. Makes a nice cheap Ampeg SVT amp.


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## BanditPanda

Micky said:


> It IS solid state.
> This looks like a disturbing trend...



Thank you !


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## JeffMcLeod

How's it sound...?


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## BanditPanda

frankyfal said:


> Thanks.



Franky...you still got the Origin coming ?
BP


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## BanditPanda

JeffMcLeod said:


> How's it sound...?



according to the OP it sounds like a Bluesbreaker.


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## paul-e-mann

Michael Roe said:


> Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
> I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer


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## JeffMcLeod

BanditPanda said:


> according to the OP it sounds like a Bluesbreaker.




According to the OP, is that good or bad?


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## frankyfal

BanditPanda said:


> Franky...you still got the Origin coming ?
> BP


Yes. I cx the Origin 20 combo once I played the DSL20h. I ordered the head to compare and Sweetwater says May due to high demand. I already requested and printed out the return label to ensure the swap out in case the Origin has a better tone for me.


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## BanditPanda

JeffMcLeod said:


> According to the OP, is that good or bad?



He didn't comment on what his ideas about a Bluesbreaker's tone are. He was apparently disappointed in the amps ability to produce a plexi's tone..
No doubt though that would be going back to Marshall's "Origin".( Bluesbreaker )
I think we're all pretty well holding our breath for the 50 watter.
BP


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## BanditPanda

frankyfal said:


> Yes. I cx the Origin 20 combo once I played the DSL20h. I ordered the head to compare and Sweetwater says May due to high demand. I already requested and printed out the return label to ensure the swap out in case the Origin has a better tone for me.




Right on Franky! Keep us posted.
BP


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## BanditPanda

Michael Roe said:


> Just in case you guys wondered....after a few beers and getting over my Origin depression.....My newly acquired Budda Superdrive 45 smokes both those amps...DSL & Origin.....




Yeah now there's an amp name that's on every players lips :>). Budda
It also costs 3 times the price of the Origin when new.
It is a high gain 2 channel amp.
You may not be fond of the Origin or DSL but lets keep your comparisons real.
BP


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## BanditPanda

ken361 said:


> I want a bugera 1960 plexi 400.00 they rip! I knew the origin wasnt really a plexi from the videos my dsl40c crunch will blow its nuts off the 50 watter might be better with some power backing it



If it's as good as you say it is Ken ( the Bugera ) then for 400 bucks that sounds like a real good deal.
Listening on here to Solar's Bugeras and plexi I did not hear the Bugera copping the plexi tone at all. Must be my hearing.:>)
And you knew the Origin wasn't really a plexi from the videos?
You listened to this one ? http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/marshall-origin-20c-combo-the-proper-demo.101512/#post-1711640
I can't say that I've heard any plexi tones coming out of your DSL40C on vids that you've posted.
Please post your version of the plexi tone coming from your DSL40C.
BP


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## jeffb

ken361 said:


> PI drives the power tubes so Mosfets make it sound more solid state?





Micky said:


> It IS solid state.



Very disturbing indeed. I was excited for these amps, but the SS PI is a deal breaker for me. Rocked PI tube is a huge part of classic Marshall tones.


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## BanditPanda

Indeed. Many proclaim the PI to be THE most important tube.


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## ken361

BanditPanda said:


> If it's as good as you say it is Ken ( the Bugera ) then for 400 bucks that sounds like a real good deal.
> Listening on here to Solar's Bugeras and plexi I did not hear the Bugera copping the plexi tone at all. Must be my hearing.:>)
> And you knew the Origin wasn't really a plexi from the videos?
> You listened to this one ? http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/marshall-origin-20c-combo-the-proper-demo.101512/#post-1711640
> I can't say that I've heard any plexi tones coming out of your DSL40C on vids that you've posted.
> Please post your version of the plexi tone coming from your DSL40C.
> BP


I like the crunch on the dsl over the orgins 20 I meant


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## PU239

50 watt head


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## ken361

BanditPanda said:


> If it's as good as you say it is Ken ( the Bugera ) then for 400 bucks that sounds like a real good deal.
> Listening on here to Solar's Bugeras and plexi I did not hear the Bugera copping the plexi tone at all. Must be my hearing.:>)
> And you knew the Origin wasn't really a plexi from the videos?
> You listened to this one ? http://www.marshallforum.com/threads/marshall-origin-20c-combo-the-proper-demo.101512/#post-1711640
> I can't say that I've heard any plexi tones coming out of your DSL40C on vids that you've posted.
> Please post your version of the plexi tone coming from your DSL40C.
> BP


theres some tasty vids out there


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## ken361

ken361 said:


> theres some tasty vids out there


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## BanditPanda

PU239 said:


> 50 watt head




Thank you PU239.
I had just sent an e mail to Marshall UK when I saw your post of the 50.
Because I don't know what I'm looking at....My e mail to Marshall asked them if the 50W used Solid State for the Phase Inverter section.
What do these shots reveal?
BP


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## PU239

BanditPanda said:


> Thank you PU239.
> I had just sent an e mail to Marshall UK when I saw your post of the 50.
> Because I don't know what I'm looking at....My e mail to Marshall asked them if the 50W used Solid State for the Phase Inverter section.
> What do these shots reveal?
> BP



The reason the amp can be sold for $650. Reading in here folks are losing perspective of the price.


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## ken361

dsl20cr has 3 tubes and the 40cr has 4 so maybe the Orgy has a PI on the 50


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## Micky

The Origin 50 also appears to be using MOSfets for the PI.


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## BanditPanda

Ken here's a pretty good one with Q&A directly from Bugera.
This is a demo of the original 60. Make sure you go for the later Infinium version which has a master volume.
BP


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## PU239

ken361 said:


> dsl20cr has 3 tubes and the 40cr has 4 so maybe the Orgy has a PI on the 50



No


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## BanditPanda

Micky said:


> The Origin 50 also appears to be using MOSfets for the PI.




Well ultimately I do not know if the SS PI is a deal breaker or not?
The bottom line is tone/sound and the debate rages about today's SS advances.
Feel ? Well again I don't know.
One less tube to buy :>)
In any event the experience will be known when the 50 gets into the hands of the players.
BP


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## johan.b

So. Is it becoming truth now that the origin has solid state p.i.?...because i see typical marshall p.i.values on the pictures pu239 posted...did anyone get to see a schematic already? ..and one not so happy customer is not enough to dismiss this amp yet. the clip posted the other day, from Australia sounded great. ..
J


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## BanditPanda

johan.b said:


> So. Is it becoming truth now that the origin has solid state p.i.?...because i see typical marshall p.i.values on the pictures pu239 posted...did anyone get to see a schematic already? ..and one not so happy customer is not enough to dismiss this amp yet. the clip posted the other day, from Australia sounded great. ..
> J




Truth.

Proved to be UNTRUE !


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## PU239

johan.b said:


> So. Is it becoming truth now that the origin has solid state p.i.?...because i see typical marshall p.i.values on the pictures pu239 posted...did anyone get to see a schematic already? ..and one not so happy customer is not enough to dismiss this amp yet. the clip posted the other day, from Australia sounded great. ..
> J



For the money it is a very good amp. I said long ago it was a classic rock/blues amp out of the box. It does take OD pedals well and with a good OD in the loop the amp can get much heavier. 

If folks want the circuit that is a plexi then buy a plexi, this 50 watt is only $650 so lets not lose perspective of that. I do recommend the 50. 

Negative reviews gloss every piece of gear. But as we all know this world has a lot of sheep who let others make up their minds.


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## johan.b

Blow up from the pics above..




Strange because this looks a lot like a typical marshall p.i. to me...
J


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## slagg

PU239 said:


> If folks want the circuit that is a plexi then buy a plexi



Agree. For purist's it will never do. For the average guy or gal if it sounds good, it will be good. I myself don't need a "Pedal" amp.


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## paul-e-mann

johan.b said:


> Blow up from the pics above..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange because this looks a lot like a typical marshall p.i. to me...
> J



What does this mean? Can you draw some arrows for those of us that don't know what we're looking at and a more detailed explanation? I am very interested.


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## ken361

pedecamp said:


> What does this mean? Can you draw some arrows for those of us that don't know what we're looking at and a more detailed explanation? I am very interested.


V3 solder tube placement


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## johan.b

You see the cathodes tied together. You see 82k and 100k anode resistors.you see the little fizzle cap sitting in the middle of the tube socket circle of legs.you see the two decoupling caps (dark red). You see a number of resistors that could be the typical string of resistors going to ground/feedback loop...i don't know, but it looks a lot like a typical marshall p.i....But if people in the know says it ain't so. .
J


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## FutureProf88

PU239 said:


> The reason the amp can be sold for $650. Reading in here folks are losing perspective of the price.



I agree, but it's hardly unrealistic to ask for a tube PI on a $650, foreign made amp. Fender puts PI tubes in their Mexican amps that cost less than that. The Haze amps had PI tubes I believe, were cheaper, and were Vietnamese. With full PCB mounting of all components it wouldn't cost them much more (probably the price of the tube because the socket would be offset by not using the mosfet) to make the PI a tube, and im certain people would have been willing to shell out $10 more for the amp to cover that.


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## Sailindawg

Not to be a nattering nabob of negativism or to crap on the Origin, but I'm amazed by that Bugera 1960 Infinium. I never knew it even existed. Comparing to the Origin build wise, very similar construction, except Origin has solid state phase inverter, where Bugera has a tube.

Tone wise, out of the box, the Bugera is what I had hoped the Origin to be. The Bugera isn't as trebly as a Marshall 1959, but that could probably be adjusted with an equalizer in the fx loop. 

Nice touch with the Bugera bias features as well. I'm quite surprised that the Origin doesn't have the bias features of the new DSL.

Price point wise, comparing the Bugera to the Origin, similarly priced. Longevity for either one, they both seem to be similar birds.

However, I'm somewhat disappointed that Marshall didn't put out a 1960 Infinium amp instead. For $400, I'd buy the Bugera first.


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## ken361

Sailindawg said:


> Not to be a nattering nabob of negativism or to crap on the Origin, but I'm amazed by that Bugera 1960 Infinium. I never knew it even existed. Comparing to the Origin build wise, very similar construction, except Origin has solid state phase inverter, where Bugera has a tube.
> 
> Tone wise, out of the box, the Bugera is what I had hoped the Origin to be. The Bugera isn't as trebly as a Marshall 1959, but that could probably be adjusted with an equalizer in the fx loop.
> 
> Nice touch with the Bugera bias features as well. I'm quite surprised that the Origin doesn't have the bias features of the new DSL.
> 
> Price point wise, comparing the Bugera to the Origin, similarly priced. Longevity for either one, they both seem to be similar birds.
> 
> However, I'm somewhat disappointed that Marshall didn't put out a 1960 Infinium amp instead. For $400, I'd buy the Bugera first.


Theres a guy name Blix on TGP who ones a 1960 for a few years now and still loves it and his tones are pretty amazing total VH sounding. There is a big thread and gut shots, really need a attenuator to get a VH breakup. I tried on at the store for bedroom use which i use during the week with a OD i got a nice mild break up but you need to crank it for the ultimate tones


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## ken361

Micky said:


> The Origin 50 also appears to be using MOSfets for the PI.


still think this? you seem to know your shit


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## Kinkless Tetrode

johan.b said:


> Blow up from the pics above..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange because this looks a lot like a typical marshall p.i. to me...
> J



I agree. That looks like a tube PI. Compare those resistor and cap and pin location traces to a schematic of a 1987, and its much like a plexi PI.

Three 12AX7s, one of them not being the PI, on a non high gain amp doesn't make sense. You don't need three preamp tubes plus a PI unless its a high gain design.


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## ken361

Theres a happy 50 owner on TGP


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## MaskingApathy

PU239 said:


> For the money it is a very good amp. I said long ago it was a classic rock/blues amp out of the box. It does take OD pedals well and with a good OD in the loop the amp can get much heavier.
> 
> If folks want the circuit that is a plexi then buy a plexi, this 50 watt is only $650 so lets not lose perspective of that. I do recommend the 50.
> 
> Negative reviews gloss every piece of gear. But as we all know this world has a lot of sheep who let others make up their minds.


Does the 50w head have the external bias points like the DSL40CR and 100HR?


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## slagg

Is this it ? If You look to the right of the 2 filter caps Mosfet ??


johan.b said:


> Blow up from the pics above..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange because this looks a lot like a typical marshall p.i. to me...
> J


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## Kinkless Tetrode

MaskingApathy said:


> Does the 50w head have the external bias points like the DSL40CR and 100HR?



It looks like it is cathode biased.


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## Micky

ken361 said:


> still think this? you seem to know your shit


I would need more detailed photos, especially of the MOSfets, and even better, a schematic to be sure.
Looking at a board is one thing, but reading a schematic is much better. V3 also looks like a tone stack final gain stage, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions. 

I agree the lack of hi-gain can eliminate one tube/stage, but what purpose do 2 hi-power MOSfets serve in the design? To me it looks the same as the DSL5cr, except for the fact they are using 2X EL34's as finals. MOSfets as replacements for the PI driver is not new, and is probably a lot more reliable than an additional tube and it doesn't surprise me at all that Marshall has chosen this path. There are even more cost-saving options in the future (I will bet) if they want to remain competitive from a price standpoint.

And I did not say this was a sure thing, I said it 'looks like'... All I can hope for is someone to supply me with a schematic so we will know for sure.


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## johan.b

slagg said:


> Is this it ? If You look to the right of the 2 filter caps Mosfet ??


..so? ..Might for all we know have more to do with the voltage switching for different power levels. ..i see everything i would expect to find if looking for a marshall style p.i. on a pcb. I pointed out what i see and it corresponds . Obviously we don't see the other side of the pcb, but please, tell me where i go wrong. ..


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## Micky

MaskingApathy said:


> Does the 50w head have the external bias points like the DSL40CR and 100HR?


No. There are no bias points in the Origin 20. It is not a DSL...


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## Micky

johan.b said:


> ..so? ..Might for all we know have more to do with the voltage switching for different power levels. ..i see everything i would expect to find if looking for a marshall style p.i. on a pcb. I pointed out what i see and it corresponds . Obviously we don't see the other side of the pcb, but please, tell me where i go wrong. ..


This seems like the best explanation so far...


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## trovador

Micky said:


> No. There are no bias points in the Origin 20. It is not a DSL...


I believe he asked about the 50 not the 20.


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## el_bastardo

If you zoom way in on all those solid state chips and pieces, you can read the fine print on them - Kemper.


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## paul-e-mann

el_bastardo said:


> If you zoom way in on all those solid state chips and pieces, you can read the fine print on them - Kemper.



What happended to that Starbucks thread it just up and disappeared! I was having fun discussing it with you, you bastard!


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## Michael Roe

PU239 said:


> 50 watt head


So, what is your take on the 50 watter? I was really considering going that route and tried to change my order at the last minute but they were sold out until next month. Does the 50 really sound more like a Plexi than the 20 watter?
BTW, is one of your tubes blown?? The one on the right does not look good.


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## Gene Ballzz

I'm surprised that no one else seems to have noticed the apparently *"unhappy"* V5 power tube, in the third pic of the ORIGIN 50, in coincidentally post #50! There has been a lot of discussion and speculation as to how the "power reduction" is achieved. One suggestion has been by using different voltage taps form the power transformer. There *DO *appear to be additional wires from the PT, but still just speculation. Another theory was that they are simply using a "switched vs variable" version of power scaling, in which MosFets are used to "shed/dissipate" voltage. When my 20 shows up, I'll put a meter on some points and determine "generally" what's going on!
Just Sayin'
Gene


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## Michael Roe

My prediction concerning better "real dudes" reviews on the Origin 20.......I'm doubtful. I really think now after having the amp, the vids we have heard actually do the amp justice.
If Marshall would have released that 50's surf vid sooner it would have saved a lot of us from doing this wait thing and hoping ...well maybe they just suck at making a vid.
Maybe there is a viable "plexi" tone in there! After sleeping on it with my experience, I am actually glad I had the speaker out problem. Now Sweetwater has to pay the return shipping.
Now, the bigger question: Do I try the 50 watter? Or just pass on that one and move on?


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## EndGame00

Michael Roe said:


> My prediction concerning better "real dudes" reviews on the Origin 20.......I'm doubtful. I really think now after having the amp, the vids we have heard actually do the amp justice.
> If Marshall would have released that 50's surf vid sooner it would have saved a lot of us from doing this wait thing and hoping ...well maybe they just suck at making a vid.
> Maybe there is a viable "plexi" tone in there! After sleeping on it with my experience, I am actually glad I had the speaker out problem. Now Sweetwater has to pay the return shipping.
> Now, the bigger question: Do I try the 50 watter? Or just pass on that one and move on?



Marshall are not known to put up a proper video demonstration.... the only two guys I listen to are Kay W. Sly of Marshall Germany and Oli from Session...


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## ken361

Need chris back


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## Michael Roe

Not to make this an Origin bashing post but:
I think what most of us really wanted is not what this Origin series does.
Bugera can make an Asian made "Plexi" amp for dirt cheap. We really just wanted a dirt cheap 4 holer. Maybe a 50 & 20 watt version with an FX loop. 
Marshall! You need to step up!! If Bugera can do it why not you? 
I think this Origin series is going to be about as successful as the JCM 600.....remember those? Yeah, there will be a handful of guys who like them.
When Marshall uses the word "Origin" who doesn't think "plexi"? They should not have named it "Origin" but been more truthful about it and just named it "bluesbreaker" or something that was more fitting.


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## ken361

seems pretty simple to build a plexi in Asia, guess they dont want to hurt sales of the brit amps maybe?


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## slagg

When they come up on the used market I'll nab one.modify it and sew some ballz back on it


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## trovador

So, given that the dsl20 has the same amount of tubes as the Origin 20, does that mean that they have a mosfet phase inverter as well?


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## slagg

Until someone digs in I will assume it has a P.I. tube,same with the DSL. 3 preamp tubes 2 channel has been done with many designs

V1a cascaded into V1b >plate driven tone stack >into P.I.


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## Gunner64

The thing I think what we will see is the guys who already own JMPs, 800s ect. , being dissapointed in the origins they ordered. Possibly thinking they could next greatest tone monster, forgetting they pretty much have the ultimate already. Impulse buy??..driven by peer (mf) pressure??.....yep.


----------



## Gene Ballzz

Ya Know,
There's a lot of speculation about the phase inverter because of only three preamp style tubes. May I remind all that the 1987, 1959, 2203/2204/JCM800 and Bassman 5F6-A (the "original" Marshall ) all have three preamp *"style" *tubes and one of them is the phase inverter! While there certainly are a couple/few MosFets in there, the jury is still out on what they're being used for. Only a schematic or an experienced tech with a meter can shed light on this! I'm gonna bet that the phase inversion is being done with a tube!
Just My $.02,
Gene


----------



## Ghostman

Question:

Who cares if there is SS PI in the design? If it sounds good, buy it and f'n play it.


----------



## trovador

Ghostman said:


> Question:
> 
> Who cares if there is SS PI in the design? If it sounds good, buy it and f'n play it.


Agreed. I have a dsl20h and enjoying the hell out of it.


----------



## Dmann

Ghostman said:


> Question:
> 
> Who cares if there is SS PI in the design? If it sounds good, buy it and f'n play it.


 Nothing new. People have been judging tone with thier eyes and wallets for 50 years.


----------



## DannyB

Micky said:


> The Origin 50 also appears to be using MOSfets for the PI.



Well, this sux. And I’m afraid, that unless Marshall fans reject this, this will expand into the next DSL series and new Marshall’s in general.


----------



## frankyfal

Ghostman said:


> Question:
> 
> Who cares if there is SS PI in the design? If it sounds good, buy it and f'n play it.


Exactly. I don’t own a plexi, JTM 800 or a 2061, but Like that Johan dude on YT I can coax the best possible tone out of any amp/rig in my possession. I’ve done it for 45 years now starting with Sunn beta lead and a big muff and lately I throw a BOR in front of a Roland Jazz chourus 40 and you would think it was a JTM 45 when I cover Zep, Bad co and such. I would like to snag the real deal old school Marshall tone, at a normal small club volume straight into the amp without an attenuator for $500, but if this line is a bust or just another failed marketing ploy so be it I’ll send it back after a week or so


----------



## el_bastardo

pedecamp said:


> What happended to that Starbucks thread it just up and disappeared! I was having fun discussing it with you, you bastard!


Were you even in that thread? I don't remember.


----------



## DannyB

Gene Ballzz said:


> ................ Another theory was that they are simply using a "switched vs variable" version of power scaling, in which MosFets are used to "shed/dissipate" voltage. When my 20 shows up, I'll put a meter on some points and determine "generally" what's going on!
> Just Sayin'
> Gene



I hope you’re right!


----------



## EndGame00

ken361 said:


> Need chris back


Hell no... all he did was rush through the controls, bash a few chords here and there....not exactly a proper demo... Marshall does not invest anything to put together an “Official Product Demonstration” on par with a Mesa... the guys in Germany does it right...


----------



## LCW

Dmann said:


> Nothing new. People have been judging tone with thier eyes and wallets for 50 years.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Gunner64 said:


> The thing I think what we will see is the guys who already own JMPs, 800s ect. , being dissapointed in the origins they ordered. Possibly thinking they could next greatest tone monster, forgetting they pretty much have the ultimate already. Impulse buy??..driven by peer (mf) pressure??.....yep.



I love my 2204, I was hoping for a smaller form factor and smaller wattage version of it in the Origin.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Gene Ballzz said:


> Ya Know,
> There's a lot of speculation about the phase inverter because of only three preamp style tubes. May I remind all that the 1987, 1959, 2203/2204/JCM800 and Bassman 5F6-A (the "original" Marshall ) all have three preamp *"style" *tubes and one of them is the phase inverter! While there certainly are a couple/few MosFets in there, the jury is still out on what they're being used for. Only a schematic or an experienced tech with a meter can shed light on this! I'm gonna bet that the phase inversion is being done with a tube!
> Just My $.02,
> Gene



Regarding the whole PI discussion does it really matter if its ss or tube as long as the amp is voiced like a Marshall?


----------



## paul-e-mann

el_bastardo said:


> Were you even in that thread? I don't remember.



Texas heat must be getting to your brain LOL, you bastard! Regardless it was a fun thread.


----------



## el_bastardo

pedecamp said:


> Regarding the whole PI discussion does it really matter if its ss or tube as long as the amp is voiced like a Marshall?


I think it does matter because what keeps getting brought up in all of these Origin threads? "Plexi tone". Everyone seems to want it to sound like a massive Plexi in a tiny little cheap package. Okay, fine. So what's a big part of "Plexi tone"? The tube phase inverter. Ever hear a Plexi with a *pre* phase inverter master volume? They sound like weak ass. Ever hear one with a *post* phase inverter master volume? They sound much better. So the tube phase inverter must be pretty important in the grand scheme of things. That's just how I'm thinking about it.


----------



## el_bastardo

pedecamp said:


> Texas heat must be getting to your brain LOL, you bastard! Regardless it was a fun thread.


It's not hot in Texas yet, so it can't be that. There must be some other reason that I don't recall any of your involvement in that thread. No big deal. The thread is gone. Let's move on.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Well it is 4/21...the day after. Some were gonna forget no matter what.


----------



## johan.b

Another thing none of us seem to consider....Marshall has always been all about rock. ..perhaps with this one, they are trying to get a foot into other genres too...after all. .The Clean sounds I've heard was great too. .
J


----------



## Michael Roe

LPMarshall hack said:


> Well it is 4/21...the day after. Some were gonna forget no matter what.


Maybe I was one of the lucky ones and two of my three speaker jacks worked...........
Yeah, I can't wait to hear some of these "Plexi Tone" vids


----------



## Michael Roe

johan.b said:


> Another thing none of us seem to consider....Marshall has always been all about rock. ..perhaps with this one, they are trying to get a foot into other genres too...after all. .The Clean sounds I've heard was great too. .
> J


You may be on to something here: Maybe the Origin was "What if Marshall would have done that Fender thing instead".............


----------



## MaskingApathy

Micky said:


> No. There are no bias points in the Origin 20. It is not a DSL...


50 not 20


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Michael Roe said:


> Maybe I was one of the lucky ones and two of my three speaker jacks worked...........
> Yeah, I can't wait to hear some of these "Plexi Tone" vids


I meant the day after 4/20.... people will forget everything that happened cuz they were too high....


----------



## Gene Ballzz

el_bastardo said:


> I think it does matter because what keeps getting brought up in all of these Origin threads? "Plexi tone". Everyone seems to want it to sound like a massive Plexi in a tiny little cheap package. Okay, fine. So what's a big part of "Plexi tone"? The tube phase inverter. Ever hear a Plexi with a *pre* phase inverter master volume? They sound like weak ass. Ever hear one with a *post* phase inverter master volume? They sound much better. So the tube phase inverter must be pretty important in the grand scheme of things. That's just how I'm thinking about it.



You Sir make a good point here! Now, if there is a more modern way to achieve what many of us have grown accustomed to, I'm all ears! Many things have been "modernized" throughout the years and many of them have been good, an example is electronic tuners. We used to use a tuning fork or the keyboard to tune by ear and while most good players could get fully tuned in a musical manner, the electronic units have made it much easier and quicker to get there, the audience isn't forced to listen to it _*AND*_ our tuning isn't compromised or made more difficult by other noises going on while attempting to do so! In the long run, only our _*"EARS"*_ can really tell us what sounds, feels, reacts, responds, etc, good or not!

Though I'm not an electrical engineer, it's my understanding that the phase inverter tube in a classic style amp does not necessarily "distort" or add/subtract much character to the sound, other than it's ability to respond to it's input signal in regards to how dynamically and in how balanced a manner it drives the power tubes. Can this be similarly accomplished by a solid state device? Maybe and maybe not! It should be noted here that few preamp tubes are truly balanced (remember, a 12AX7 is actually two triode tubes built into one bottle) and most amplifier designs feed these two different triodes of the phase inverter with slightly different voltages, to apparently create a small imbalance, which most have found to be quite musical. The most standard type of phase inverter is called a "long tailed pair" which lends itself to a more controlled imbalance of the way the power tubes get driven. On the other hand, amps like a 5E3, Tweed Deluxe use what's called a "cathodyne" phase inverter that only uses one triode, but drives one power tube from the plate and the other from the cathode, which is "out of phase" with the plate. This arrangement provides a more random and dynamically varying means of driving the power tubes and is often credited with the way these amps break up and compress when cranked. Neither is inherently good or bad, but more a matter of taste in what a particular player likes!

Now, enter the electrical engineers (whose ears may or may not be squarely up their a$$e$) who over the years have been very proud of squeaking more wattage and volume out of the same tubes, in the interest of efficiency, which might end up making amps sound a little more harsh and/or sterile. On the other side of that same coin, are the players, whose main concern is tone, *"WATTAGE BE DAMNED!"
*
I'm still eager to get my ORIGIN 20 in hand, behind my guitar, in front of my ears and on my bench and I will keep you all posted, in case you might care about my opinion.

And FWIW, I was right about the explosion! This single thread has skyrocketed to over 100 posts in just a few short hours!

Just My $.02 (well, maybe $.03 or $.04) & Likely Worth A Heck Of A Lot Less!
Gene


----------



## slagg

If it delivers the goods no one will care in the end. If not, it will be beaten to death


----------



## Snowdogyyz

A guy on TGP said the speaker was the issue with the 20c. Said it sounded much better when he connected a cab.


----------



## Michael Roe

While we are waiting on those Origin "Plexi" vids....here is some Budda to tide you over


----------



## BanditPanda

Gene Ballzz said:


> You Sir make a good point here! Now, if there is a more modern way to achieve what many of us have grown accustomed to, I'm all ears! Many things have been "modernized" throughout the years and many of them have been good, an example is electronic tuners. We used to use a tuning fork or the keyboard to tune by ear and while most good players could get fully tuned in a musical manner, the electronic units have made it much easier and quicker to get there, the audience isn't forced to listen to it _*AND*_ our tuning isn't compromised or made more difficult by other noises going on while attempting to do so! In the long run, only our _*"EARS"*_ can really tell us what sounds, feels, reacts, responds, etc, good or not!
> 
> Though I'm not an electrical engineer, it's my understanding that the phase inverter tube in a classic style amp does not necessarily "distort" or add/subtract much character to the sound, other than it's ability to respond to it's input signal in regards to how dynamically and in how balanced a manner it drives the power tubes. Can this be similarly accomplished by a solid state device? Maybe and maybe not! It should be noted here that few preamp tubes are truly balanced (remember, a 12AX7 is actually two triode tubes built into one bottle) and most amplifier designs feed these two different triodes of the phase inverter with slightly different voltages, to apparently create a small imbalance, which most have found to be quite musical. The most standard type of phase inverter is called a "long tailed pair" which lends itself to a more controlled imbalance of the way the power tubes get driven. On the other hand, amps like a 5E3, Tweed Deluxe use what's called a "cathodyne" phase inverter that only uses one triode, but drives one power tube from the plate and the other from the cathode, which is "out of phase" with the plate. This arrangement provides a more random and dynamically varying means of driving the power tubes and is often credited with the way these amps break up and compress when cranked. Neither is inherently good or bad, but more a matter of taste in what a particular player likes!
> 
> Now, enter the electrical engineers (whose ears may or may not be squarely up their a$$e$) who over the years have been very proud of squeaking more wattage and volume out of the same tubes, in the interest of efficiency, which might end up making amps sound a little more harsh and/or sterile. On the other side of that same coin, are the players, whose main concern is tone, *"WATTAGE BE DAMNED!"
> *
> I'm still eager to get my ORIGIN 20 in hand, behind my guitar, in front of my ears and on my bench and I will keep you all posted, in case you might care about my opinion.
> 
> And FWIW, I was right about the explosion! This single thread has skyrocketed to over 100 posts in just a few short hours!
> 
> Just My $.02 (well, maybe $.03 or $.04) & Likely Worth A Heck Of A Lot Less!
> Gene





The bottom line here is simple. The phase inverter is one of the most important tubes in your amp and the hardest worked tube in the preamp section of your amp. It is how this tube breaks down that provides your output stage distortion tone, character, and amp feel. 
Myles S. 


http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf


----------



## assaf110

Sailindawg said:


> Not to be a nattering nabob of negativism or to crap on the Origin, but I'm amazed by that Bugera 1960 Infinium. I never knew it even existed. Comparing to the Origin build wise, very similar construction, except Origin has solid state phase inverter, where Bugera has a tube.
> 
> Tone wise, out of the box, the Bugera is what I had hoped the Origin to be. The Bugera isn't as trebly as a Marshall 1959, but that could probably be adjusted with an equalizer in the fx loop.
> 
> Nice touch with the Bugera bias features as well. I'm quite surprised that the Origin doesn't have the bias features of the new DSL.
> 
> Price point wise, comparing the Bugera to the Origin, similarly priced. Longevity for either one, they both seem to be similar birds.
> 
> However, I'm somewhat disappointed that Marshall didn't put out a 1960 Infinium amp instead. For $400, I'd buy the Bugera first.




Dude, are you serious? Comparing the longevity of an amp that reached the first buyers yesterday?
And someone suggested that it may be SS P.i. - you all ready made it a fact.
I really don’t get the negativity on this thread. One unhappy customer that obviously thought he was buying something the origin isn’t, is not really something we should be disappointed about.
I know what I’ve heard in some of the demos. I have NO reason to believe those tones aren’t there.
No one, ever, said it was a plexi circuit. I still think it can be a fine amp.
Only question is - 20 or 50w head?


----------



## Jason Kennedy

pedecamp said:


> I love my 2204, I was hoping for a smaller form factor and smaller wattage version of it in the Origin.



Smaller form and wattage 2204 would be the astoria custom. All the early reports on the origin always implied it would have less gain and be voiced more like a jtm than a jmp


----------



## parachute

johan.b said:


> Another thing none of us seem to consider....Marshall has always been all about rock. ..perhaps with this one, they are trying to get a foot into other genres too...after all. .The Clean sounds I've heard was great too. .
> J


Could be. What I noticed in pretty much all the official demos is that how they've been emphasizing on the headroom, and what a great pedal platform the Origin is.


----------



## Antmax

I always had the impression it was going to be a new series in the vein of the Class 5 but with all that amps faults addressed. Capable or low volume, ability to adjust treble to your needs and an FX loop. Essentially a vintage voiced pedal platform, hence the single channel.


----------



## Sailindawg

"Comparing thelongevity of an amp that reached the first buyers yesterday?"

Many apologies for a bad comparison, the point I was trying to make was that the 2 amps are very comparable in price, build, but very different tone wise. I had hoped that the Origin would be closer to what the Bugera offers tone wise, but at more manageable volume with modern reliability & features. No more, no less.


----------



## paul-e-mann

I'd love to know who designed the Origin and hear what and why it was designed the way it was. Theres gotta be good reasons for everything.


----------



## BanditPanda

Michael Roe said:


> My prediction concerning better "real dudes" reviews on the Origin 20.......I'm doubtful. I really think now after having the amp, the vids we have heard actually do the amp justice.
> If Marshall would have released that 50's surf vid sooner it would have saved a lot of us from doing this wait thing and hoping ...well maybe they just suck at making a vid.
> Maybe there is a viable "plexi" tone in there! After sleeping on it with my experience, I am actually glad I had the speaker out problem. Now Sweetwater has to pay the return shipping.
> Now, the bigger question: Do I try the 50 watter? Or just pass on that one and move on?



pass.
BP


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Theres a guy name Blix on TGP who ones a 1960 for a few years now and still loves it and his tones are pretty amazing total VH sounding. There is a big thread and gut shots, really need a attenuator to get a VH breakup. I tried on at the store for bedroom use which i use during the week with a OD i got a nice mild break up but you need to crank it for the ultimate tones



It's a 1959 clone. It will do plexi. Many of my clips are what a boosted vintage Marshall circuit does.

I've got a late 68' plexi to compare to. It's close. A Strat or Tele sounds great. I run mine through a 412 of GM12'S.

Also Ken buy the Ifinium model for plug and play any same pin out power tubes. Mix and match...any slot. No need to have matched sets.

For $400 new? I run mine hot and breathing or attenuated with a Weber Mass 200. It's still entertaining the neighbors.


----------



## Ghostman

pedecamp said:


> I'd love to know who designed the Origin and hear what and why it was designed the way it was. Theres gotta be good reasons for everything.


I thought someone said it was Santiago who did the initial design based on the 2081x, but there were numerous changes after he left to the design.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Ghostman said:


> I thought someone said it was Santiago who did the initial design based on the 2081x, but there were numerous changes after he left to the design.



Exactly, its a totally different amp since Santiago touched it.


----------



## BanditPanda

pedecamp said:


> Exactly, its a totally different amp since Santiago touched it.



That would be PU239 who has the scoop on all that went down.
BP


----------



## Gene Ballzz

Yes indeed! Much is likely to have changed since Santiago left. Not sure about the 20 & 50 watt versions, but according to Santiago, the 5 watt version shared a power amp section and some other features with the SL-5 (which of course uses a single ended EL34 for a power tube), but the released 5 watt version seems to share more with the Class 5, including and likely not limited to a single ended EL84 for power and no presence control! Not a bad thing, as a *"GOOD" *Class 5 sounds fantastic through the right speaker(s), as long as you don't ask/expect it to do more than it can! 5 watts can still be pretty darned loud, though rolling back guitar volume enough for the great clean sound usually drops the volume level a tad below usefulness!
Just My Crankin' $.02,
Gene


----------



## RickyLee

I am with Johan, as I am thinking it has the traditional 12AX7 phase inverter.

I sure would like to try one for myself. I am sure I could make it work well with a couple of strategically placed pedals. I could get it to do Hendrix to modern hard rock with great crunch tones, singing lead tones.


----------



## Gene Ballzz

Next week we'll see how right you are, or not! With both the DSL20 & ORIGIN20 coming in, I have an _*"amp test fest" *_scheduled and will likely be playin' till I'm bleedin' out both my fingers and ears!
Just Swayin'
Gene


----------



## PU239

pedecamp said:


> Exactly, its a totally different amp since Santiago touched it.




DING DING... we have a winner! After seeing the board for the first time.... well it is different.

As far as the phase inverter as per the pictures, the phase splitter is quite a normal one, You can see the 82k and 100k anode resistors, the 470ohm on the cathodes, etc. around the last preamp tube. So yes, tube driven phase inverter.

It is still a good amp for the money, but I am sure most would have paid more for what was a pure mini plexi with a lot of modern features. The only way you will hear that amp now is to get a copy of Satch's Shockwave Supernova CD.

Profit.

Back to my rig.


----------



## JeffMcLeod

All this l


Sailindawg said:


> Not to be a nattering nabob of negativism or to crap on the Origin, but I'm amazed by that Bugera 1960 Infinium. I never knew it even existed. Comparing to the Origin build wise, very similar construction, except Origin has solid state phase inverter, where Bugera has a tube.
> 
> Tone wise, out of the box, the Bugera is what I had hoped the Origin to be. The Bugera isn't as trebly as a Marshall 1959, but that could probably be adjusted with an equalizer in the fx loop.
> 
> Nice touch with the Bugera bias features as well. I'm quite surprised that the Origin doesn't have the bias features of the new DSL.
> 
> Price point wise, comparing the Bugera to the Origin, similarly priced. Longevity for either one, they both seem to be similar birds.
> 
> However, I'm somewhat disappointed that Marshall didn't put out a 1960 Infinium amp instead. For $400, I'd buy the Bugera first.




I just traded in a Bugera T50 Infinium at Guitar Center towards a new toy (which is on the truck right now as we speak ), and I was really apprehensive about parting with it, but I just didn't use it any more (the ViSL20HR is my main machine right now). The T50 sounds absolutely great. Tons of features, and it's only $299 brand new. This thing is probably the best kept secret out there right now. I think the power is a little overrated though. It's rated at 50W, but I don't think it quite gets there, lol.

I traded it on Thursday, checked the website on Friday and they had it listed, then checked the website again today (Saturday), and it's gone man...sold, lol. I think Bugera is making some pretty decent stuff nowadays.


----------



## Ghostman

BanditPanda said:


> That would be PU239 who has the scoop on all that went down.
> BP


....had.


----------



## JimiRules

assaf110 said:


> I really don’t get the negativity on this thread. One unhappy customer that obviously thought he was buying something the origin isn’t, is not really something we should be disappointed about.
> I know what I’ve heard in some of the demos. I have NO reason to believe those tones aren’t there.
> No one, ever, said it was a plexi circuit. I still think it can be a fine amp.
> Only question is - 20 or 50w head?



I agree. For me as long as it can get a nice cleanish to crunch sound I will let my boost pedals do the rest. I would never expect this amp to go toe to toe with JTM45 or 1959SLP.


----------



## Michael Roe

PU239 said:


> DING DING... we have a winner! After seeing the board for the first time.... well it is different.
> 
> As far as the phase inverter as per the pictures, the phase splitter is quite a normal one, You can see the 82k and 100k anode resistors, the 470ohm on the cathodes, etc. around the last preamp tube. So yes, tube driven phase inverter.
> 
> It is still a good amp for the money, but I am sure most would have paid more for what was a pure mini plexi with a lot of modern features. The only way you will hear that amp now is to get a copy of Satch's Shockwave Supernova CD.
> 
> Profit.
> 
> Back to my rig.


I agree, I would have paid more for a real "mini plexi". For $50 more I was expecting something that would have been as accurate to the original as the DSL20HR. 
At least Marshall got the DSL 20HR right!
I don't know, maybe a Vietnam made 1987x with the added power stem for next year??


----------



## BanditPanda

JimiRules said:


> I agree. For me as long as it can get a nice cleanish to crunch sound I will let my boost pedals do the rest. I would never expect this amp to go toe to toe with JTM45 or 1959SLP.



Well said Jimi!
BP


----------



## BanditPanda

Ghostman said:


> I thought someone said it was Santiago who did the initial design based on the 2081x, but there were numerous changes after he left to the design.



2061x


----------



## slagg

Michael Roe said:


> guys who favor a more JTM / Clapton style may actually like it.



If it sounds like this, they've hit their "Mark" . Guy's want the "Plexi" sound, but there is no "one" Plexi sound.
Also AC/DC tonez are way cleaner then most people play them


----------



## SlyStrat

I had the 50w head ordered but just changed it to the 50w combo.
It only weighs 40 lbs.
I sold my Marshall 2061X and 1974X because they didn't have the punch with a live band.
I'm running a Marshall JTM45 RI and the Origin will be tone tested against it.


----------



## BanditPanda

SlyStrat said:


> I had the 50w head ordered but just changed it to the 50w combo.
> It only weighs 40 lbs.
> I sold my Marshall 2061X and 1974X because they didn't have the punch with a live band.
> I'm running a Marshall JTM45 RI and the Origin will be tone tested against it.



Excellent Sly !


----------



## BowerR64

What are those white 10 pin chips i see in there?


----------



## wardal

These 'assumers' with their paranoid phase inverter talk crack me up. Too much talk and not enough playing


----------



## Gene Ballzz

Switching relays and given their location they are likely involved in the "boost" function! While relays don't cause any concern, there _*ARE*_ at least eight transistors and two IC chips, This is kind of odd, when we consider that the DSL 20, even with all of it's additional features and functions only has about 2 transistors and (I think) one IC on the board? This may in fact boil down to being somewhat of a "hybrid" unit, as opposed to being an "all tube" amplifier! That would be a serious diappointment for me and for other tube junkies! Although, how it actually sounds is the *"impotent"* thing.
See What I Did There? 
Gene


----------



## SlyStrat

If the Origin has great tone that's all that matters to me.
Never played a DSL I liked.


----------



## slagg

Try a new one, voiced better.


----------



## slagg

BowerR64 said:


> What are those white 10 pin chips i see in there?



Those a Marshall Code tone generators. they hide them in all of there amps


----------



## whitecloud

Gene Ballzz said:


> Switching relays and given their location they are likely involved in the "boost" function! While relays don't cause any concern, there _*ARE*_ at least eight transistors and two IC chips, This is kind of odd, when we consider that the DSL 20, even with all of it's additional features and functions only has about 2 transistors and (I think) one IC on the board? This may in fact boil down to being somewhat of a "hybrid" unit, as opposed to being an "all tube" amplifier! That would be a serious diappointment for me and for other tube junkies! Although, how it actually sounds is the *"impotent"* thing.
> See What I Did There?
> Gene


If it's "impotent" Perhaps some V (banned word)


----------



## whitecloud

Michael Roe said:


> While we are waiting on those Origin "Plexi" vids....here is some Budda to tide you over



I can't speak for others here but I am not really interesting in this video as I thought it was a Marshall Origin thread. What would be cool is you sharing how crappy the Origin your sending back sounds, the settings and guitars used. I mean that's kind of the point of this thread isn't it? That video if produced might show some of us why this Origin might not shine for some tones but excel at others.


----------



## Michael Roe

whitecloud said:


> I can't speak for others here but I am not really interesting in this video as I thought it was a Marshall Origin thread. What would be cool is you sharing how crappy the Origin your sending back sounds, the settings and guitars used. I mean that's kind of the point of this thread isn't it? That video if produced might show some of us why this Origin might not shine for some tones but excel at others.


This thread was started by me!
The title says "Gut shots"....did you see them?
If you read through you will see why I didn't post a vid of the amp.
I posted the Budda vid out of frustration...you know, buy a new amp and one of the speaker jacks don't work!!!! A little frustrating!!!!!!!
This old Peavey manufactured head has two speaker jacks that.....you guessed it..WORK!!!
Sorry for your inconvenience. 
Maybe you should do a vid????


----------



## SlyStrat

ANYTHING you can buy can be defective. 
Slamming a product for that reason alone is immature and naive.


----------



## Michael Roe

SlyStrat said:


> ANYTHING you can buy can be defective.
> Slamming a product for that reason alone is immature and naive.


I totally disagree!
It is that mind set that allows companies to put out stuff that has very poor quality control.
BTW, I never slammed the origin....................


----------



## Gene Ballzz

Holy Cow! This thread is rapidly deteriorating into a strange piddlin' match! 
'Nuff Said!
Gene


----------



## Antmax

Doesn't the Marshall still come with something like a 5 year parts (minus consumables) 3 year labour warranty. Pretty generous by todays standards. I bought two Marshalls in the last 2 years and neither had any manufacturing defects. Though admittedly, the CODE had a bunch of sofware bugs that took half a year to iron out. DSL5c has been fantastic so far.


----------



## whitecloud

Michael Roe said:


> This thread was started by me!
> The title says "Gut shots"....did you see them?
> If you read through you will see why I didn't post a vid of the amp.
> I posted the Budda vid out of frustration...you know, buy a new amp and one of the speaker jacks don't work!!!! A little frustrating!!!!!!!
> This old Peavey manufactured head has two speaker jacks that.....you guessed it..WORK!!!
> Sorry for your inconvenience.
> Maybe you should do a vid????


Yes I read and seen the pics. Went back and viewed this whole thread again. Your reason for not doing a video is because it would sound like the crappy ones that had some very concerned? Still think it would of been helpful vs Budda. Yes it's frustrating to get a defective amp I understand that.However above you also claim your are not slamming the Origin or Not to make this an Origin bashing post but" To me when there is a "But" it kinda cancels out previous words and I did read some comments of yours very less than flattering of the Origin but I guess that ventures into semantics. From other threads and forums believe it or not some are really enjoying their new Origin amp and don't share your same assessment tone wise so yeah par for the course on the Internet. Oh and btw I won't be getting an Origin until Summer but when I do I'll share a video or two the Good the Bad and or Ugly


----------



## FutureProf88

Gene Ballzz said:


> Switching relays and given their location they are likely involved in the "boost" function! While relays don't cause any concern, there _*ARE*_ at least eight transistors and two IC chips, This is kind of odd, when we consider that the DSL 20, even with all of it's additional features and functions only has about 2 transistors and (I think) one IC on the board? This may in fact boil down to being somewhat of a "hybrid" unit, as opposed to being an "all tube" amplifier! That would be a serious diappointment for me and for other tube junkies! Although, how it actually sounds is the *"impotent"* thing.
> See What I Did There?
> Gene



Any chance the IC's are an autobias circuit? I don't see bias pots on either the 20 or 50. With the power reduction it may have some sort of autobias to ensure correct bias for better tone at reduced power, like the YJM.


----------



## EndGame00

Could it be just buyer's remorse?


----------



## Ghostman

Did anyone confirm if the Origins are Cathode Biased? I can't find that info anywhere.


----------



## slagg

No such thing as an "Amp for Everyone"


----------



## slagg

Ghostman said:


> Did anyone confirm if the Origins are Cathode Biased? I can't find that info anywhere.



Good question. Looks to be Cathode biased.


----------



## Michael Roe

Ghostman said:


> Did anyone confirm if the Origins are Cathode Biased? I can't find that info anywhere.


Yes! Cathode Biased


----------



## Gene Ballzz

The 20 is cathode bias and there *IS* a bias trim pot on the fixed bias 50!



Just Sayin'
Gene


----------



## atarilovesyou

Came for the Origin, not the shill for Bugera, wtf...no worries, wont let door hit my ass on the way outta this thread.


----------



## BanditPanda

atarilovesyou said:


> Came for the Origin, not the shill for Bugera, wtf...no worries, wont let door hit my ass on the way outta this thread.



Take the Budda with ya !
BP


----------



## BanditPanda

Michael Roe said:


> Yes! Cathode Biased



fixed bias is usually used for higher power amplifiers (50W and higher), and cathode bias is usually used for lower power amplifiers.


----------



## ampmadscientist

Michael Roe said:


> The Bugera 1960....I think it sounds pretty darn good. I don't know how reliable it is but put a tube screamer in front or a Friedman Dirty Shirley and it sounds quit good. BTW, my brother who owns it is a bass player and he bought it to use for bass. Makes a nice cheap Ampeg SVT amp.



Bugera 1960 sounds really good, but it has thermal management problems. The SS voltage regulator which supplies 15 volts DC is going to overheat and fail.
When this SS regulator fails (overheats and shorts), it's going to make the bias to the output tubes fail also.
(the output tubes are going to fail because of this bug - the bias is going to die)
(bias and 15 volts-they all run off the same secondary taps of the PT - which is also supplying power to the 5 volt regulator, for the digital reverb, etc...)

But, you can move the 7815 SS regulator to the chassis (with flying leads), and make the chassis into the heat sink for the regulator....which solves the basic underlying problem.
Then FYI it will keep working...

But if I were you:
I would do the update "before" it kills your power tubes.


----------



## assaf110

Michael Roe said:


> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer



Michael Roe,
Is the defective jack the left 8 ohm one?


----------



## wakjob

Micky said:


> I would need more detailed photos, especially of the MOSfets, and even better, a schematic to be sure.
> Looking at a board is one thing, but reading a schematic is much better. V3 also looks like a tone stack final gain stage, but there are still a lot of unanswered questions.
> 
> I agree the lack of hi-gain can eliminate one tube/stage, but what purpose do 2 hi-power MOSfets serve in the design? To me it looks the same as the DSL5cr, except for the fact they are using 2X EL34's as finals. MOSfets as replacements for the PI driver is not new, and is probably a lot more reliable than an additional tube and it doesn't surprise me at all that Marshall has chosen this path. There are even more cost-saving options in the future (I will bet) if they want to remain competitive from a price standpoint.
> 
> And I did not say this was a sure thing, I said it 'looks like'... All I can hope for is someone to supply me with a schematic so we will know for sure.



I'm gonna go ahead and offer up my conjecture...

The MOSfet's are for the power scaling section.


----------



## BanditPanda

wakjob said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and offer up my conjecture...
> 
> The MOSfet's are for the power scaling section.




Might as well. Everybody else is.


----------



## Gene Ballzz

wakjob said:


> I'm gonna go ahead and offer up my conjecture...
> 
> The MOSfet's are for the power scaling section.



I'm gonna have to agree with your conjecture here!  I do, however have some serious questions concerning the multiple transistors and IC chips in there, what they're being used for and whether or not they are actually passing/processing/modifying the audio signal? Now, I realize that transistors and chips are often used to help facilitate switching, routing and buffering, but not necessarily for doing anything to the signal, other than routing it. When we compare gut shots of the ORIGIN 20 and the DSL 20, we can see at least 8 transistors and 2 IC chips on the ORIGIN, but only 6-ish transistors and 1 chip on the DSL, even though the DSL has many more functions and features, etc. Granted, there's likely a lot of solid state and digital "stuff" housed on the reverb board, but that's to be expected in this case!

Here's my thought. If the solid state devices are actually part of the signal path (other than for routing) this takes the ORIGIN out of the realm of being an *"ALL TUBE" * amplifier and into being somewhat of a hybrid! While not really a deal breaker for me, if this amp exhibits *ANY* of the characteristic solid state response anomalies, it's going right back into the box and to where it came from!

Just Sayin'
Gene


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Doesn't the di out have a cabinet simulation? I have a Behringer Ultra G di with a cab simulation and I think that is an IC chip??


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

You should see the circuit board of a Vox AC15c1....


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk




----------



## assaf110

Michael Roe said:


> I believe so.



well, according to the manual, a single 8Ohm cab should be plugged to the RIGHT socket. If this matters, are you plugging a SINGLE cab to the left one? or using 2 16Ohm cabs into both 8 Ohm outputs? if the first option is the case, i'm not sure if it is actually a bug.


----------



## Michael Roe

assaf110 said:


> well, according to the manual, a single 8Ohm cab should be plugged to the RIGHT socket. If this matters, are you plugging a SINGLE cab to the left one? or using 2 16Ohm cabs into both 8 Ohm outputs? if the first option is the case, i'm not sure if it is actually a bug.


It was two 16 ohm cabs, just like I stated waaaaaay up there, lol


----------



## BanditPanda

Michael Roe said:


> It was two 16 ohm cabs, just like I stated waaaaaay up there, lol



In your original post you said you were plugged into a 1960AX
You also said :" So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know!..."


----------



## Gitarzysta2000

hpharley90 said:


> Reminds me of my 5 watt blackstar...that 5 watt had alot of those vertical capacitor just like the origin.


 I tend to disagree. Blackstar is full of surface mounted components that are pain in the neck in case of any failure


----------



## tschrama

MarshallDog said:


> I have the London Power Scaling mod on my 74 JMP MKII NM 50W and love it. I use it with attenuator and cannget tones at very low volumes.



Cool, but I dont think his power scaling is patentet, or even patent applied for. he does use a trademark symbol, and claims to be the inventor of power scaling LMAO.


----------



## eastsidecincy

I want an Origin 20 head so bad..can't wait to try one out....gonna stack it on top of all my other Marshalls....


----------



## drhexuk

Quick look at the pics leads me to these points

They are Tube Phase invertor.

IC1 and IC2 are just photo couplers. 

Yellow wires from transformer looks like heater voltage for el34.

Green wires from transformer look like the High tension B+

Haven't figured out how the output power switch is operating but is definitely linked to the 3 black relays and doesn't look like its doing anything with the B+. 

Not sure what the Mosfets are doing yet


----------



## JCarno

drhexuk said:


> Quick look at the pics leads me to these points
> 
> They are Tube Phase invertor.
> 
> IC1 and IC2 are just photo couplers.
> 
> Yellow wires from transformer looks like heater voltage for el34.
> 
> Green wires from transformer look like the High tension B+
> 
> Haven't figured out how the output power switch is operating but is definitely linked to the 3 black relays and doesn't look like its doing anything with the B+.
> 
> Not sure what the Mosfets are doing yet


From the "horses" mouth.
"As far as the phase inverter as per the pictures, the phase splitter is quite a normal one, You can see the 82k and 100k anode resistors, the 470ohm on the cathodes, etc. around the last preamp tube. So yes, tube driven phase inverter."


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Michael Roe said:


> Here you go!!!
> How about these nuts, lol
> View attachment 47676
> View attachment 47677
> View attachment 47678




Morning, message to the OP, I'm just wondering if you happened to note down, or have another picture of, the S/N of the power transformer? 

I've got the 50 watt numbers as:

The OT:
TXOP-91013-01
MD150C-OPT
MAV 18 01

The PT:
TXMA-91067-01
MD17D-U120V
MAV 18 01

And the 20 watt OT as:

TXOP-91012-01
MD150B-OPT
MAV 18 01

Thank you


----------



## Vintagemod

Just got my Origin 20 head. This thing is loud. Low setting with gain and master up around 8 or so is the sound im after. Its ear smashingly loud. Floor vibrating, door shaking dont even dare turn thos on when your kids are in bed loud. Med power is a great setting to play on. Not much louder but even fuller sounding. Lovely. Great for a gig. Full 20 watts? I only dared a few open a chords and that would have been heard for miles. 

Still playing with it. Sometimes im rolling off a lot of volume and tone on the guitar, other times i dont and can get what i want just on the amp. Still learning it. 

Only way to play this amp is up full. Bit of a shame as i hoped the low power meant quiet playing in the evening. As it is the only way ill play it is in a studio even on low power. 

Reacts and feels like my Vintage Modern but a totally different sound. Not better than the VM just different.


----------



## Arc Anjil

Vintagemod said:


> Just got my Origin 20 head. This thing is loud. Low setting with gain and master up around 8 or so is the sound im after. Its ear smashingly loud. Floor vibrating, door shaking dont even dare turn thos on when your kids are in bed loud. Med power is a great setting to play on. Not much louder but even fuller sounding. Lovely. Great for a gig. Full 20 watts? I only dared a few open a chords and that would have been heard for miles.



Good to hear. I was afraid the 20 watt would not be loud enough. What speaker cab/speakers are you playing through?


----------



## SlyStrat

Hard to believe the 20 is loud enough for a live band.
My Marshall 2061X and 1974X didn't cut it.


----------



## printer

I am not going to try and reverse engineer the amp, too much going on with the switching. The input tube, both plates have 100k resistor, 2.2k cathode, one has 10k, 4.7nF coupling cap, 0.22 uF which I think is cathode bypass. With switching they have a lot of options I am not going to look at. The important thing here is the 2.2k and 10k cathode resistors. Close to the 2.7k and 10k of a 2203. Easy enough to change the 10k to 820 with the switching circuit for a Plexi input.

For those still thinking the PI is Mosfet, the third tube is the PI, no doubt about it. The middle tube that would normally be the gain stage with cathode follower into the tone stack, 220k plate on one, think 2.2k cathode. The other 100k plate and 2.2k cathode again with 560 ohm in series with the capacitor bypass. Anode follower maybe?

The power scaling switch wires go to the area between the second tube and the PI, not sure how they are doing the scaling, why it goes to this board area. I thought the Mosfets might have been one used to scale the main voltage and one to scale the bias voltage. But the main voltage would have to dump a lot of heat and neither has a heat sink. Another option might be scaling the bias voltage and the screen supply. Or they could be using a pair of Mosfet followers between the PI and the output tubes. Which would be cool in an amp but not needed if they were making a , going back to our roots type amp.

I would be interested in seeing a schematic but I have other things to do today. The main thing I wanted to confirm was the PI tube.

Forgot to add, from the tone stack section to the effect send board, which has a TL072 for send and return I figure. The three black relays are the power selector relays. They go from the main board to the output/effect send board with the six pin jumper (so good not seeing ribbon cable being used like it once was in amps) and the 5W resistor at the output are probably switched by them. The three conductor cable from the output section is most likely for the the presence as it goes to the PI section.

Output tubes, 5.6k on grids. Some 100 ohm and the big 1k 5W boys. I am not too up on Marshall amps, are the 1k's screen? 1K screens, the 100 ohms are hum balancing on the heaters.

So much for me not spending time on this. Chips at the bias area, LTV-826, dual optocoupler?


----------



## Buzzard

So if you classified the origin 20 would it be jtm, plexi,bluesbreaker,70's jmp 4 holer,late 70's jmp master vol. etc etc. I've heard a MULTITUDE of opinions.Glad it's different than the vm since I've got one already.


----------



## ken361

so are they power tube distortion?


----------



## Vintagemod

View media item 9902
Just lost a long post. Oh well....

Depends on the band and where you play and the sound you want from it regarding volume. Everyone needs different things. I find it a very loud amp for 0.5 watt and 3 watt.

Ive played it through th 2061CX with stock g12h anniversary speakers. They are rated at 100db sensitivity so may account for some of the volume. Will try the VM 2266C’s g12c at some point. The 2061CX is a brigher cab and the Origin has plenty of brightness available.

Preamp doesnt do a lot until the master is around 7 and up and then it sings. Will do a Free crunch, bluesbreaker, live Cream sound well. Zepplin and later 70s sounds can be covered well. You can coax it to do a lot. Not sure what 70s head its close too but the tilt makes it easy to dial in a tone.

A lot heavier sounding amp than any demo ive heard online.

No idea why people have struggled getting a good tone from it so far. Just like when the Vintage Modern was released. Demos were rubbish for a long time.


----------



## shooto

Vintagemod said:


> Just got my Origin 20 head. This thing is loud. Low setting with gain and master up around 8 or so is the sound im after. Its ear smashingly loud. Floor vibrating, door shaking dont even dare turn thos on when your kids are in bed loud. Med power is a great setting to play on. Not much louder but even fuller sounding. Lovely. Great for a gig. Full 20 watts? I only dared a few open a chords and that would have been heard for miles.
> 
> Still playing with it. Sometimes im rolling off a lot of volume and tone on the guitar, other times i dont and can get what i want just on the amp. Still learning it.
> 
> Only way to play this amp is up full. Bit of a shame as i hoped the low power meant quiet playing in the evening. As it is the only way ill play it is in a studio even on low power.
> 
> Reacts and feels like my Vintage Modern but a totally different sound. Not better than the VM just different.



Great info!...would you mind expanding on that?...how is it similar/different from the VM?

Thank you!


----------



## printer

Vintagemod said:


> View media item 9902
> Just lost a long post. Oh well....



I just hate that.



> Preamp doesnt do a lot until the master is around 7 and up and then it sings...
> 
> ...No idea why people have struggled getting a good tone from it so far.



Well people struggle to get it to 7. You start at 7, makes sense to me.


----------



## nycLPplayer

Every demo I hear sounds thin and overly bright. Anyone find some good warm EQs or some caps to cut/mod especially for the 50w?


----------



## ken361

100 bucks the bias is way too hot


----------



## ampmadscientist

Gitarzysta2000 said:


> I tend to disagree. Blackstar is full of surface mounted components that are pain in the neck in case of any failure


Yeah, blackstar is a hybrid amplifier, not really a tube amp. It's essentially non-serviceable.
You would really need a set of boards to service it.


----------



## vivanchenko

Just compared the original plexi schematic to v3 wiring and resistor values and it is an exact match. No doubt whatsoever - the V3 tube is a phase inverter and it is a good old classic Marshall/Fender long-tail pair design. Surprised that it took so long to figurine out.


----------



## johan.b

vivanchenko said:


> Just compared the original plexi schematic to v3 wiring and resistor values and ...... Surprised that it took so long to figurine out.


..what do you mean? ...i said this on page 4...


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Yeah, I thought that was cleared up ages ago.....

I mean what did people think the third valve was for?


----------



## vivanchenko

johan.b said:


> ..what do you mean? ...i said this on page 4...



You did. I actually used your blowup of v3 for my comparison, you just didn't sound confident enough to me. At least I wasn't convinced and I felt the need to see it for myself. Took me 2 minutes. Figuring out a classic Marshall phase inverter on page 4 of a thread on Marshall forum? I thought that most people here see it every day/night in their deems ...


----------



## johan.b

In the workbench section perhaps.. this is the user section.. people in here just use the stuff..


----------



## Flyingv4me

BanditPanda said:


> So by looking at those pics are you able to answer the question from Bloodrock...
> "I’m hearing that the Origins boost is solid state clipping? Anyone know if that’s true?"



Well....the infamous JCM800 2205 / 2210 used solid state clipping too. Diodes. More than a few rockers (including Michael Schenker) swear by them


----------



## CyrusTheFabulous

I haven't read this whole thread, I'm new here, so sorry if I missed this.

Anyone know where the bright cap is, and what value? I'm guessing it's one of the ones on the board the controls are mounted to.

Also, all the talk about mosfets and transistors, one thing I haven't seen mentioned (perhaps I missed it), is that according to the manual these can be run without a speaker load. Could some of these parts accomplish that?


----------



## pleximaster

PU239 said:


> 50 watt head



That tube on the right is so dead! What happened?


----------



## Jordan Prysmiki

Is there a schematic anywhere?


----------



## ampmadscientist

Jordan Prysmiki said:


> Is there a schematic anywhere?



Not yet...


----------



## ampmadscientist

Looks like any other amp, made in China. Except better pots...
Almost looks like a Crate amp.




may sound great...but WTF happened to quality?


----------



## Buzzard

Is that the new dell ? lol


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Buzzard said:


> Is that the new dell ? lol



Hahaha.... just a regular Joe Marshall mate, nothing fancy in there

.... we're all happy with our £400 strymon digital fx and all its transistors, and dirty old fuzz and distortions pedals from the 70s and all their transistors, but the second we open up an valve amp... ohh shit, it's on a P C B... must be a computer....

Didn't Marshall do PCB before computers did PCB??


----------



## K2JLX

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> Hahaha.... just a regular Joe Marshall mate, nothing fancy in there
> 
> .... we're all happy with our £400 strymon digital fx and all its transistors, and dirty old fuzz and distortions pedals from the 70s and all their transistors, but the second we open up an valve amp... ohh shit, it's on a P C B... must be a computer....
> 
> Didn't Marshall do PCB before computers did PCB??



Qft


----------



## Dmann

Oh look... people judging how an amp sounds / plays with thier eyes.... again.

LoL


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

What does 'Qft' mean?


----------



## K2JLX

Quoted for truth


----------



## Buzzard

Dmann said:


> Oh look... people judging how an amp sounds / plays with thier eyes.... again.
> 
> LoL


No ,but you can judge it’s quality and longevity.


----------



## 67Mopar

Michael Roe said:


> Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
> I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer


I believe the other output jack only works if you have another cabinet plugged-in.


----------



## Michael Roe

67Mopar said:


> I believe the other output jack only works if you have another cabinet plugged-in.


Exactly! Hence the reason I said, " TWO" and "2" cabs. This is a known issue of these amps. I am sure they will get it worked out.


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Buzzard said:


> No ,but you can judge it’s quality and longevity.



Anyone questioning the quality and longevity of the late 70s and early 80s 2203s and 2204s?
Well, yes, yes they did, in the 70s and 80s they did, then 20 years later too... because they are notorious for breaking down.... most of the old 60s vox amps are notorious for setting fire too.... life's a bitch innit? Full of problems to fix, and Gibson headstocks to reattach after snapping off at a glance... fender lacquer cracking... all these things have been 'fixed'... and yet... people still want to buy old? Because it works? Well yeah, after all the work that's been done on them since they reached there first home, they finally do....


----------



## 67Mopar

Michael Roe said:


> Exactly! Hence the reason I said, " TWO" and "2" cabs. This is a known issue of these amps. I am sure they will get it worked out.


Yeah, I see someone else experienced the same issue. I'm interested in this line as well... Keep us posted.


----------



## Mitchell Pearrow

my origin 50H iPhone recording


----------



## Mitchell Pearrow

This is where you are going to hear the way the iPhone clips,but the end of the vid is where you hear,what I hear on my end


----------



## ken361

doesnt the weather affect your gear? leave it in the garage?


----------



## ken361

PU239 said:


> 50 watt head


only one trim pot? and no test points?


----------



## K2JLX

There are test points. Right side of board “cn32”.


----------



## ken361

trying to find it thanks


----------



## K2JLX

Here you go


----------



## ken361

K2JLX said:


> Here you go


appreciate that what about checking the plate voltage? just stick the probes in cn32 thats it huh


----------



## K2JLX

Plate voltage is pin 3 of the PT. those points will give you bias current, thanks to the current shunt 1 ohm resistor, measure in Mv
Pin 3 will measure 420-450vdc. Cn32 around 32-38mV


----------



## K2JLX

Standard disclaimer. Make sure you keep one hand in your pocket when you measure plate voltage to ground.


----------



## ken361

K2JLX said:


> Plate voltage is pin 3 of the PT. those points will give you bias current, thanks to the current shunt 1 ohm resistor, measure in Mv
> Pin 3 will measure 420-450vdc. Cn32 around 32-38mV


you have this amp? I really need to check the PV? my dsl I did it twice but i just set it to 32 and im good there isnt much a difference unless its set higher at 36


----------



## ken361

My girls place it was measured at 475 or so and my buddys place was at 450 both times


----------



## K2JLX

I do have the origin 50h. You should check the plate voltage otherwise the bias current has no reference.


----------



## ken361

K2JLX said:


> Plate voltage is pin 3 of the PT. those points will give you bias current, thanks to the current shunt 1 ohm resistor, measure in Mv
> Pin 3 will measure 420-450vdc. Cn32 around 32-38mV


have a pic of pin 3


----------



## ken361

one last question was it set from the factory ok? thx


----------



## K2JLX

ken361 said:


> one last question was it set from the factory ok? thx


 
Mine was but it would be prudent to make sure yours is.


----------



## ken361

still not sure what you meant were to measure the PV power tube pin 3? or where the trans hooks up?


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

K, my amp arrived back yesterday.... it has been fixed, the sticker is on so all good to go for practice on Sunday,

Now, something I've been wondering, for those who have followed, did we find out which part of the TRS jack is switching the fx loop? I don't want the footswitch indefinitely, would like to use the TRS jack hack, but do we know if I need to get the soldering iron out?

Thanks guys,


----------



## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Finally worked out I have Instagram, XD here we go... Finally...


https://www.instagram.com/p/Brr_y5mhYml/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Then here's the board, don't know yet wether the delay is going in the loop and the ft/switch in that spot, or just run it in the front... hmmm, will try both! 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Brr8dH9ho0Z/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


----------



## Mitchell Pearrow

ken361 said:


> doesnt the weather affect your gear? leave it in the garage?


Just the dust, and when it cools off all the hard tail / fixed bridge guitars are sharp!


----------



## Mitchell Pearrow

Still loving my 50H, origin is going no where! Cheers Mitch


----------



## Mad Jack

Hi everyone ! I want to know what are this yellow caps ?? (Brand, series)


----------



## Moony

Mad Jack said:


> Hi everyone ! I want to know what are this yellow caps ?? (Brand, series)



Don't know the brand, but you'll do fine, when chosing metalized polyester film caps for replacement. Just look at the right voltage rating, too.


----------



## Mad Jack

Yes you are right !!


----------



## Extremister

I bought a 50w origin head. I am very happy with the tone, headroom, simplicy... It's perfect for my pedals except for one thing that is anoying.
I have an mxr micro Boost and when I use it in my peavey 5150 FX Loop, it boosts the volume up (for solos and stuff) but does not add gain. With the mxr Boost plugged into the Origin, it adds gain and distortion rather than volume. It's like the same, having the mxr boost in the front, or in the FX Loop. I also use a DD-6 Delay, and the mix is quite different in the 5150. I it possible that, the LOOP FX of the origin is not really placed between the pre and power amp section? Or is it meant to be like this? If so, is it changeable??
Thanks ...


----------



## Ye Auld

Gene Ballzz said:


> The 20 is cathode bias and there *IS* a bias trim pot on the fixed bias 50!
> 
> View attachment 47701
> 
> Just Sayin'
> Gene


Hey Gene thanks a lot for the info, I know this is old, but I just got one of the Marshalls Origin 20 watts combo and I dont know a lot about tubes and bias etc etc, so my question is this .....when replacing power tubes on my origin 20 combo all I need to do is unplug the old EL34s and plug in the new EL34s without nothing else ? and if so.... can I use any kind of brand/type of EL34s or do I need something very similar to the ones Im taking out ( the old stock EL 34s that come with the amp ) ?

Thank you.


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## Baseballhack

Ye Auld said:


> Hey Gene thanks a lot for the info, I know this is old, but I just got one of the Marshalls Origin 20 watts combo and I dont know a lot about tubes and bias etc etc, so my question is this .....when replacing power tubes on my origin 20 combo all I need to do is unplug the old EL34s and plug in the new EL34s without nothing else ? and if so.... can I use any kind of brand/type of EL34s or do I need something very similar to the ones Im taking out ( the old stock EL 34s that come with the amp ) ?
> 
> Thank you.



The 20 Watt model requires no biasing. Buy any MATCHED pair of EL34's you like, plug them in and rock on.


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## MarshallDog

Baseballhack said:


> The 20 Watt model requires no biasing. Buy any MATCHED pair of EL34's you like, plug them in and rock on.



Cathode biased...that’s such a nice option. I have two amps that have that and it is so convenient!


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## South Park

If you replace the el34s you need to rebias the tubes.if not keep an eye on overheating and it my not sound the same.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

South Park said:


> If you replace the el34s you need to rebias the tubes.if not keep an eye on overheating and it my not sound the same.



On the 50w version, yes, on the 20w version, no, just plug and play with it, it sorts itself out...


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Calling all tech heads, my 20 head is the shop but the tevhnis on holiday, so I cant access it. 
I'm tracing the amp and drawing a schematic up for it, but with limited pictures to go on and not able to get the bpardnout and turn it over, it's slow going....

I'd like to ask some help.

Can any of you whom don't mind getting a screwdriver out and just opening it up, if you wouldn't mind, could you take some clearer, close up pictures of each of the valves and the components around them? I'm struggling to see the bands so I can work out what they each are, and confirm their correspondence to the circuit?

Thank you to anyone who can help with any of this. You would then all be able to view a draft schematic of these amps...


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## Ye Auld

Baseballhack said:


> The 20 Watt model requires no biasing. Buy any MATCHED pair of EL34's you like, plug them in and rock on.


Thank you very much Gene, thats awesome, I had a JTM 45 (head and 4X12 cab ) and also DSL 40 C and on those The bias was fixed so it was a different deal, but with this 20 watt combo is just plug in new tubes and thats it, awesome thank you very much for the info.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Ye Auld said:


> Thank you very much Gene, thats awesome, I had a JTM 45 (head and 4X12 cab ) and also DSL 40 C and on those The bias was fixed so it was a different deal, but with this 20 watt combo is just plug in new tubes and thats it, awesome thank you very much for the info.



Wouldn't be able to take some pictures while you're at it couldn't you? ;-)


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## Ye Auld

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> Calling all tech heads, my 20 head is the shop but the tevhnis on holiday, so I cant access it.
> I'm tracing the amp and drawing a schematic up for it, but with limited pictures to go on and not able to get the bpardnout and turn it over, it's slow going....
> 
> I'd like to ask some help.
> 
> Can any of you whom don't mind getting a screwdriver out and just opening it up, if you wouldn't mind, could you take some clearer, close up pictures of each of the valves and the components around them? I'm struggling to see the bands so I can work out what they each are, and confirm their correspondence to the circuit?
> 
> Jason your lucky, yesterday late night I just did that, I took photos of my brand new Origin 20 watts inside out, first I took photos of the amp all original the way it came from the factory, and then I took some photos after replacing some preamp tubes I hope this helps


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## Ye Auld

Here more photos ........


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## Ye Auld

And more .....


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## Ye Auld

Baseballhack said:


> The 20 Watt model requires no biasing. Buy any MATCHED pair of EL34's you like, plug them in and rock on.


Baseballhack thank you very much for the info, its a relief not to worry about biasing the amp, just plug and play !!!


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## Ye Auld

Yesterday at the music store where I got my origin 20, they had 3 Origin 20 Combos, also a 50 watt combo, and 2 combos 5 watts, and some 20 and 50 watts heads, I was after the 20 watts combo and after trying the 3 amps , the 20 watts combos side by side with the same Fender Strat american original 50s, with exactly the same EQ and settings on the 3 AMPS, and after trying every possible settings on the 3 amps, one combo was very bright, not thin, just bright, the other got really distorted way sooner than the other 2 ( well not way sooner, a bit sooner ) and the one I took home, the one you see on the photos I just posted, was very creamy with more bass response and the overdrive and tone in general was very similar to a Marshall JTM45 head reissue I had, so .... If you, (the person reading this comment ) if you are buying one, I really recommend you to try many at your local music store and pick the best one, they do sound different, not extremely different but king of different


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## Ye Auld

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> Wouldn't be able to take some pictures while you're at it couldn't you? ;-)


Jason Im not sure If I understood correctly your comment because english is not my native language, but if you were asking me to take some photos of the JTM45 or the DSL I no longer own those amps, but if I remember right, long long ago here on this forum I posted photos of the JTM45 inside out, so if you look for them I guess you will find them under my name/membership YeAuld.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Ye Auld said:


> Jason Im not sure If I understood correctly your comment because english is not my native language, but if you were asking me to take some photos of the JTM45 or the DSL I no longer own those amps, but if I remember right, long long ago here on this forum I posted photos of the JTM45 inside out, so if you look for them I guess you will find them under my name/membership YeAuld.



No, just the Origin.
The photos you've posted are brilliant. I can really crack on now with working out the signal path and sorting out a schematic for you all.

You are a super star! Thank you! :-D \,,/


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## Ye Auld

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> No, just the Origin.
> The photos you've posted are brilliant. I can really crack on now with working out the signal path and sorting out a schematic for you all.
> 
> You are a super star! Thank you! :-D \,,/


You are very welcome Jason, and thanks a lot for taking the time doing that schematic for everybody, is much need it, cheers man !!!


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## Mitchell Pearrow

Ye Auld said:


> You are very welcome Jason, and thanks a lot for taking the time doing that schematic for everybody, is much need it, cheers man !!!


This right here right now, is what this forum is all about!!
Cheers to ya Ye Auld


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## Ye Auld

Mitchell Pearrow said:


> This right here right now, is what this forum is all about!!
> Cheers to ya Ye Auld


Thanks to you too Mitchell, cheers !!!!


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## Mitchell Pearrow

Ye Auld said:


> Thanks to you too Mitchell, cheers !!!!


No problem brother you did the work, I am just giving props to ya bro on a well done job!
Thanks again for helping Jason out!
Cheers Mitch


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Evening all,

I've been writing out and tracking the main signal carrying part of the circuit for the 20w(cross checking the 50w) Origin, and I'm nearly done. 8ve gonna just rewrite it all out a bit better and make it neat before posting it.

It all seems pretty standard for a 20w/50w, early plexi, JMP, late JTM 45 with the split cathode, with obvious extras.

I've found for V1, grid stoppers, grid leak, cathode followers, bypass caps, and struggling to conect what I think are the coupling caps to the mixer resistors?? Also I'm struggling to get the mixers to V2. (Until I get in there and turn it over)

For V2 I have the 33k slope and 100k cathode resistors, and the caps for the EQ.(though I don't know what order, or value of each ro them.

For V3, Phase Inverter, I've got the grid leaks, 10k tail and cathode 470 resistor, the load resistors and cap, I just cannot see which one is the coupling caps, I'm presuming the ones next to it, but they could be over by the power valves too....?

V4 & V5, I have the 2 100k control grid resistors, and the 2 5.6k grid leaks? And the 1k screens...

So.... as long as I put my master in before the 5.6k resistors, and after the 100k(though these are different in the 50w), at pin 5 of the EL34, it will work... 

But I would like to find all these caps, mainly the coupling caps after V1 and V3, if anybody had any more insight?


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## Mitchell Pearrow

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> Evening all,
> 
> I've been writing out and tracking the main signal carrying part of the circuit for the 20w(cross checking the 50w) Origin, and I'm nearly done. 8ve gonna just rewrite it all out a bit better and make it neat before posting it.
> 
> It all seems pretty standard for a 20w/50w, early plexi, JMP, late JTM 45 with the split cathode, with obvious extras.
> 
> I've found for V1, grid stoppers, grid leak, cathode followers, bypass caps, and struggling to conect what I think are the coupling caps to the mixer resistors?? Also I'm struggling to get the mixers to V2. (Until I get in there and turn it over)
> 
> For V2 I have the 33k slope and 100k cathode resistors, and the caps for the EQ.(though I don't know what order, or value of each ro them.
> 
> For V3, Phase Inverter, I've got the grid leaks, 10k tail and cathode 470 resistor, the load resistors and cap, I just cannot see which one is the coupling caps, I'm presuming the ones next to it, but they could be over by the power valves too....?
> 
> V4 & V5, I have the 2 100k control grid resistors, and the 2 5.6k grid leaks? And the 1k screens...
> 
> So.... as long as I put my master in before the 5.6k resistors, and after the 100k(though these are different in the 50w), at pin 5 of the EL34, it will work...
> 
> But I would like to find all these caps, mainly the coupling caps after V1 and V3, if anybody had any more insight?


Sorry brother I am no help here .


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## scozz

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> Evening all,
> 
> I've been writing out and tracking the main signal carrying part of the circuit for the 20w(cross checking the 50w) Origin, and I'm nearly done. 8ve gonna just rewrite it all out a bit better and make it neat before posting it.
> 
> It all seems pretty standard for a 20w/50w, early plexi, JMP, late JTM 45 with the split cathode, with obvious extras.
> 
> I've found for V1, grid stoppers, grid leak, cathode followers, bypass caps, and struggling to conect what I think are the coupling caps to the mixer resistors?? Also I'm struggling to get the mixers to V2. (Until I get in there and turn it over)
> 
> For V2 I have the 33k slope and 100k cathode resistors, and the caps for the EQ.(though I don't know what order, or value of each ro them.
> 
> For V3, Phase Inverter, I've got the grid leaks, 10k tail and cathode 470 resistor, the load resistors and cap, I just cannot see which one is the coupling caps, I'm presuming the ones next to it, but they could be over by the power valves too....?
> 
> V4 & V5, I have the 2 100k control grid resistors, and the 2 5.6k grid leaks? And the 1k screens...
> 
> So.... as long as I put my master in before the 5.6k resistors, and after the 100k(though these are different in the 50w), at pin 5 of the EL34, it will work...
> 
> But I would like to find all these caps, mainly the coupling caps after V1 and V3, if anybody had any more insight?


Sounds good to me!


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

It's still getting there, one circuit diageam, kinda... its kind of a diagram/layout.

As a few may know I've been trying to trace the circuit of my amp without a schematic, because one isn't in the public domain yet, so I could look into some of the modifications I'd like to make.

PPIMV type 3
Switch for the fx loop
And I now want to change out the LED, becauee somebody else did and now it looks cooler than my amp so I want in! :-D
I may look jnto the ao called 'metal mod' or settle for the one wire mod... but, this is where im at with the diagram.... All I can say about the gap between V2 and V3 is that it somehow goes from the 330k slope resistor, down to the bottom, around the power reduction section and back in below the Phase Invertor.... if somebody want to have a go at the rest, or the reduction section, good luck to ya!
Imma getting my mods done and out of it! 

https://www.instagram.com/p/B4DT7VDBeiV/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


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## ampmadscientist

Michael Roe said:


> Well, ok, was going to post a vid...not happening now.
> I ran it through a 1960AX. It only resembled a Plexi on the high power setting and with the MV up about 7. At lower power sounded pretty much like all the vids we already heard. It definitely needs a boost in the front end.
> So, What does it sound like with two 4x12s?? or 2 16 ohm cabs???? Let me know! One of the two 8 ohm jacks DOES NOT WORK!!!!
> Sorry guys, mine is a turd and going back!!!
> What a bummer



You are supposed to use 1X 8 ohm jack FIRST, then plug the second speaker into the other jack second.
It's wired that way on purpose.
There is no broken speaker jack.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

ampmadscientist said:


> You are supposed to use 1X 8 ohm jack FIRST, then plug the second speaker into the other jack second.
> It's wired that way on purpose.
> There is no broken speaker jack.
> 
> View attachment 62960



And this works for you?


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## Michael Roe

ampmadscientist said:


> You are supposed to use 1X 8 ohm jack FIRST, then plug the second speaker into the other jack second.
> It's wired that way on purpose.
> There is no broken speaker jack.
> 
> View attachment 62960


That is some old news @ampmadscientist !
I posted that like a year and a half ago. And yes indeed I was right. The 8 Ohm jack was bad. Many of the first run of those amps had that problem.
You obviously did not read my post clearly. I plugged two 16 ohm cabs into the 8 Ohm jacks. It is not my first time plugging cabs into a tube amp.


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## ampmadscientist

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> And this works for you?



read the manual above.
Jack 3 is the first jack used for 1X 8 ohm speaker.
Jack 2+3 is used for 2X 16 ohm speakers.
This is in the Origin instruction manual.

If you plugged 2X 16 ohm into jacks 2 and 3, and 1 speaker cab does NOT work, then you DO have a bad speaker jack.

But if you plugged 1X 8 ohm speaker into jack #2, it's not supposed to work.
That's what the manual is telling you.

Only jack #3 is used for 1X 8 ohm speaker.

Should have been labeled better .


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

ampmadscientist said:


> read the manual above.
> Jack 3 is the first jack used for 1X 8 ohm speaker.
> Jack 2+3 is used for 2X 16 ohm speakers.
> This is in the Origin instruction manual.
> 
> If you plugged 2X 16 ohm into jacks 2 and 3, and 1 speaker cab does NOT work, then you DO have a bad speaker jack.
> 
> But if you plugged 1X 8 ohm speaker into jack #2, it's not supposed to work.
> That's what the manual is telling you.
> 
> Only jack #3 is used for 1X 8 ohm speaker.



The fix for that was sent out to technicians, it was a 2 inch wire and a sticker, and instructions on where to solder the wire... 5 min job....
But yes, the first run of these was problematic, as soon as I got mine I knew it needed to go back and get fixed...


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## ampmadscientist

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> The fix for that was sent out to technicians, it was a 2 inch wire and a sticker, and instructions on where to solder the wire... 5 min job....
> But yes, the first run of these was problematic, as soon as I got mine I knew it needed to go back and get fixed...



I suppose they changed it so that jack 2 or 3 could be used for 1X 8 ohm speaker.
It's a lot less confused...


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Old

https://images.app.goo.gl/fW48eKYnStbBQrmUA

New

https://images.app.goo.gl/H5nnZUfXyumTHbX36


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## ampmadscientist

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> The fix for that was sent out to technicians, it was a 2 inch wire and a sticker, and instructions on where to solder the wire... 5 min job....
> But yes, the first run of these was problematic, as soon as I got mine I knew it needed to go back and get fixed...



I don't know if it's really a "fix," or if people should have just read and followed the original instructions.


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## Michael Roe

ampmadscientist said:


> read the manual above.
> 
> 
> If you plugged 2X 16 ohm into jacks 2 and 3, and 1 speaker cab does NOT work, then you DO have a bad speaker jack.
> .


That IS EXACTLY what the problem was. So, the first run of amps (one of which I had) were defective.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

That was the problem on EVERYBODY'S.... and the fix was... as stated earlier... Dont worry man, they should all work 'allllriiiight now, baby it's a allllriiiigght now.....'


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## scozz

Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> .. Dont worry man, they should all work 'allllriiiight now, baby it's a allllriiiigght now.....'



I loved Free and Paul Kossof, one of the very best minimalist band and guitar player of the 70s!

Everyone in that band was great imo, Andy Garcia, Paul Rodgers,.....hmmm, I don’t know the drummers name, oh well.



Sorry, carry on,....


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Ok.... Well, I need some help and tech advice now...
So... further to my earlier posts regarding installing a PPIMV type 3, on my 20H.

My tech has now closed for isolation, and retired for good (he is 80 yrs old), without ever doing any of the work I asked for, so I've taken it back and decided I may as well spend some of my isolation tinkering and try do it myself....

So, I've opened it up, flipped the board, and now I have a predicament.....

Those traces don't go where I had thought they would....

(Pictures to come shortly)

If we take it from between the two power valve sockets, beneath the output tags that are at the top, are 2 solder points on their own, for the bias feed resistors, 100k, there's a gap and the other ends are the next 2 joints under those.
Back up to the valve sockets, the smaller joint next to the bias resistors, and one over at the far end of the board, are for the grid leak resistors? 5.6k....

Now I expected those 2 to connect up going into pin 1 of each valve... but they now don't seem to. In fact if you follow the trace from the 5.6k resistors, the thin line goes along and down the board towards (I'ill get a fuller picture next time) the master volume insert... This would appear to be a PPIMV amp... :-O

Would others tend to agree?

This would mean that my prognosis of how that master is operating is all wrong, and the problem isn't the result of it's place in the circuit, but I am now wondering about the type of pot it's self...

What do we think of the idea this pot could be linear taper instead of audio taper?

Could it be that simple?

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-WJ5tbhkeC/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B1zI_2lB0RP/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-WMIR-BHD1/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link


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## Paul Webb

Hey anybody on here with one of these wanna do me a huge favor? I have an Origin 20 in my shop with a shorted power tube and it took out R7. Its on the B+ but can’t tell if it’s a dropping resistor or some other modern Marshall wonder. Every gut shot I see I can’t make out the color bands. I super close up of R7 would MAKE MY DAY. Thanks y’all


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Paul Webb said:


> Hey anybody on here with one of these wanna do me a huge favor? I have an Origin 20 in my shop with a shorted power tube and it took out R7. Its on the B+ but can’t tell if it’s a dropping resistor or some other modern Marshall wonder. Every gut shot I see I can’t make out the color bands. I super close up of R7 would MAKE MY DAY. Thanks y’all



Gimme 5 mins, let me just get to my laptop and I'll tell you exactly what value R7 is and where it goes.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

R7 is 150R, 2w, and is connected between C14(100n) and C15(47u), and goes to the output transformer centre tap, and HT1.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

You mean the set of resistors to the right of the phase inverter?

R7, nestled in there next to the 2 diodes. Brown, i guess it's supposed to be green? Dark green maybe? and black, with brown at the other end?

In fact I can confirm it's Brown, Green, Black. 150R. Look at the first gut shot of this thread, and zoom in on R7.  

Enjoy.


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## Paul Webb

Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.


Jason Fieldhouseespk said:


> You mean the set of resistors to the right of the phase inverter?
> 
> R7, nestled in there next to the 2 diodes. Brown, i guess it's supposed to be green? Dark green maybe? and black, with brown at the other end?
> 
> In fact I can confirm it's Brown, Green, Black. 150R. Look at the first gut shot of this thread, and zoom in on R7.
> 
> Enjoy.
> 
> View attachment 79066


----------



## Mitchell Pearrow

Paul Webb said:


> Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.


 To the forum 
Cheers 


Mitch


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Paul Webb said:


> Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.



Not a worry, welcome to the forum, hope this fixes the issue for you.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Paul Webb said:


> Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.


Just a quick little question for you.

That R7 is placed going to the capacitors, but also to one of the rectifier circuits.... if this resistor goes between the rectifier and the HT, is this the 'choke' resistor? :-/ and those are the filter caps for the DC signal? :-/

Also, if that's the case, and it is 150r resistance, is this too low for that part?

Thank you


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

If anyone else needs any great close up pictures of these amps, check this guy's post out,  

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ts8LEuw8oh3qadtF2


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Paul Webb said:


> Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.




Sorry it doesn't show your part, that's in the power section, I'll get that to you, but this is just signal flow.


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## Jason Fieldhouseespk

Paul Webb said:


> Dude THANK YOU. Lifesaver.


----------

