# Connecticut school shooting



## Alt Freak

Has anyone heard about this yet? CBS reporting 26 maybe 27 dead. What goes through someone's head to go to a school and kill small children?


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## IbanezMark

Alt Freak said:


> Has anyone heard about this yet? CBS reporting 26 maybe 27 dead. What goes through someone's head to go to a school and kill small children?



Latest reports are saying 27 dead including the principal, counselor, and maybe other staff. Shooter was 20.


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## Nudge68

Just seen it on BBC 

My deepest sympathy to the folk affected.

Cheers,

Matt


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## LPMarshall hack

Been watching the last few hours. So far about 18 little kids dead and 9 adults. I am literally sick to my stomach. What a fucking cowardly act. I have three kids in elementary school. I cannot even begin to imagine...


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## Frankie

Just read it myself. I'm amazed the shooter didn't obey the no guns on school property law... wait, no I'm not. That principal and those teachers should've been strapped.


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## Feeling Supersonic

Just saw it when I got home from work. 

Dreadful - sincerely hope all rest in peace and there's no more killings.  

Very sad day indeed.


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## Feeling Supersonic

_Now if only all the children were armed with .45mm's ... _


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## LPMarshall hack

Frankie said:


> Just read it myself. I'm amazed the shooter didn't obey the no guns on school property law... wait, no I'm not. That principal and those teachers should've been strapped.



Sadly Frankie that is what is gonna have to start happening. Either arm the staff or place a cop in EVERY school, not just high schools. This is happening WAY too frequently.


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## Micky

It is all over the news sites.
18 kids dead.

Why?


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## CaptainZero

What is wrong with people.


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## IbanezMark

I've only been getting some info from my Facebook feed.
Anyone have some reliable articles or news link?


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## Frankie

LPMarshall hack said:


> Sadly Frankie that is what is gonna have to start happening. Either arm the staff or place a cop in EVERY school, not just high schools. This is happening WAY too frequently.



Let the teachers carry firearms already for fucks sake! If you're sick enough to shoot up a kindergarten class, you clearly don't care about a concealed weapons charge. That's why schools keep getting shot up, criminals know nobody is going to be packing anything to defend themselves with so it's like free game. I know if I went off my nut and wanted to shoot people that I'd definitely start in a place where I know nobody would shoot back. You don't see too many gun shops or NRA rallys being shot up, do you?


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## Frankie

IbanezMark said:


> I've only been getting some info from my Facebook feed.
> Anyone have some reliable articles or news link?



It's all over CNN.


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## LPMarshall hack

Schools are going to have to start becoming fortresses with guns and guards. I see no other way? Of course this will start all the "ban all the guns" bullshit. My response to that is, "Exactly how the fuck do you do that??!?!?!"


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## IbanezMark

Frankie said:


> It's all over CNN.



Ahem...."reliable".

Just kidding. I'll check out their stream.


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## LPMarshall hack

Frankie said:


> Let the teachers carry firearms already for fucks sake! If you're sick enough to shoot up a kindergarten class, you clearly don't care about a concealed weapons charge. That's why schools keep getting shot up, criminals know nobody is going to be packing anything to defend themselves with so it's like free game. I know if I went off my nut and wanted to shoot people that I'd definitely start in a place where I know nobody would shoot back. You don't see too many gun shops or NRA rallys being shot up, do you?



I couldn't agree with you more Frankie. Unfortunately, MOST teachers are very liberal (at least out here they are) and would never think of picking up a gun, let alone around children. 

Everyone knows that a gun in the wrong hands is a potential for disaster. But also, a gun in the RIGHT hands is the great equalizer.


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## mickeydg5

I am all for removeing law enforcement from where they need not be and placing them at primary post to actually protect the innocent first.
Law enforecement would be better if it resembled the Night's Watch instead of our present day system. There is a serious lack of strategy.


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## Frankie

LPMarshall hack said:


> I couldn't agree with you more Frankie. Unfortunately, MOST teachers are very liberal (at least out here they are) and would never think of picking up a gun, let alone around children.
> 
> Everyone knows that a gun in the wrong hands is a potential for disaster. But also, a gun in the RIGHT hands is the great equalizer.



Most are, but even one conservative teacher with a firearm and decent aim could have potentially saved a lot of innocent lives.


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## Nudge68

LPMarshall hack said:


> Everyone knows that a gun in the wrong hands is a potential for disaster. But also, a gun in the RIGHT hands is the great equalizer.



.... Never thought of it like that .... 

Cheers,

Matt.


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## Micky

Frankie said:


> Let the teachers carry firearms already for fucks sake! If you're sick enough to shoot up a kindergarten class, you clearly don't care about a concealed weapons charge. That's why schools keep getting shot up, criminals know nobody is going to be packing anything to defend themselves with so it's like free game. I know if I went off my nut and wanted to shoot people that I'd definitely start in a place where I know nobody would shoot back. You don't see too many gun shops or NRA rallys being shot up, do you?



I work in a school.
I live in Vermont, and don't need a concealed carry permit.
School policy forbids 'weapons' in school.

I have a baseball bat in my office...


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## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> _Now if only all the children were armed with .45mm's ... _



Uh... they are

a .45mm = less than half of 1mm... it's called a pencil point. Looks like someone in "this class" should have sharpened his .45mm and used it more in math class.


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## VintageGuy

dont wanna insult the usa members here,but what the f*ck is going on over there?every now and then a psycho kid bursts into a school and starts shooting people


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## Frankie

VintageGuy said:


> dont wanna insult the usa members here,but what the f*ck is going on over there?every now and then a psycho kid bursts into a school and starts shooting people



Safest place in the country to go on a murderous rampage! I mean, think about it, would you want to shoot up a place where people might shoot back or a place where you have a 99.999% guarantee that nobody is armed? It's kind of a no brainer.


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## V-man

VintageGuy said:


> dont wanna insult the usa members here,but what the f*ck is going on over there?every now and then a psycho kid bursts into a school and starts shooting people



It's the Posted NO FIREARMS ZONES...

They somehow draw out the psycopaths and criminals.





I have sympathy for the families but here we go again. Another shooting in another school with another NO FIREARMS law in another Gun-Restrictive state. Maybe it's time people figure out these stupid fucking laws aren't observed by the criminals and unstable and we provide an actual means of defense.

I for one think a class action law suit should be raised against EVERY institution that hosts (yes I believe these delusional establishments are literally responsible for hosting) these massacres, PARTICULARLY the universities.


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## IbanezMark

Frankie said:


> Safest place in the country to go on a murderous rampage! I mean, think about it, would you want to shoot up a place where people might shoot back or a place where you have a 99.999% guarantee that nobody is armed? It's kind of a no brainer.



Man, I've never thought about it...but you're right


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## SonVolt

VintageGuy said:


> dont wanna insult the usa members here,but what the f*ck is going on over there?every now and then a psycho kid bursts into a school and starts shooting people




Things are fucked up in every country; much like your economy.


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## IbanezMark

Radio just said there were two shooters. One is dead, the other is in custody and was found in a wooded area near the school.


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## V-man

IbanezMark said:


> Man, I've never thought about it...but you're right



When most people see a sign with a "Ghostbusters" ring over a pistol on a campus street, they think "Gun Free" zone.

For me, that sign may as well depict a pair of stick figure scenes, one being held up at the Campus ATM and the other being raped in a parking lot with the caption "Defenseless Victims: OPEN SEASON"


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## mickeydg5

There are shooting and bombings in lots of countries. I think it gets publicized and documented more in America.


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## CaptainZero

26 reported killed in Newtown, Conn., school shooting


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## Frankie

IbanezMark said:


> Man, I've never thought about it...but you're right



It's kinda scary when you break it down logically, huh?


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## LPMarshall hack

IbanezMark said:


> Radio just said there were two shooters. One is dead, the other is in custody and was found in a wooded area near the school.



He should be tried and publicy tortured and killed within a month. But no, some scum sucking lawyer will bring up his poor childhood and then blame the children for not wearing bullet proof vests and helmets.


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## CaptainZero

He should have been executed by the first teacher he came across.


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## LPMarshall hack

CaptainZero said:


> He should have been executed by the first teacher he came across.



Then the teacher would be fired and arrested and sued.


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## DirtySteve

I'm seeing conflicting reports all over the place. Some say lone gunman and others say there were 2.


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## IbanezMark

LPMarshall hack said:


> He should be tried and publicy tortured and killed within a month. But no, some scum sucking lawyer will bring up his poor childhood and then blame the children for not wearing bullet proof vests and helmets.



Some crimes just shouldn't warrant any kind of defense. 
Hang the fucker in the street.


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## mickeydg5

The teacher is a public servant and should be treated as a cop in the same situation.


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## Frankie

LPMarshall hack said:


> Then the teacher would be fired and arrested and sued.



Sadly that's probably true. Even if said teacher stopped what would've been a serious tragedy, some asshole in a suit would still have them fired, arrested, and sued for breaking the no guns law on school property. It ain't right.

Still, I'd rather be fired, arrested, and sued instead of dead or watching a bunch of children die. This is why I carry all the time regardless. You won't know I have my firearm unless I really need to use it, and at that point you'd probably be glad I decided to break the law. Also, just to say, I have been a permitted weapons holder for 10 years and I've had to draw my firearm exactly zero times.


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## VintageGuy

so,all these incidents occur in states where there is a "no firearms" policy?


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## Frankie

VintageGuy said:


> so,all these incidents occur in states where there is a "no firearms" policy?



No, they occur in states that have reasonable firearms laws too, they just occur in locations where it's still illegal to carry such as schools, universities, etc... Like I said earlier, if you're going to shoot up a place do you want to shoot up a place where you might get shot back at or a place where you're 99.999% certain nobody has a gun? Much like locks, gun control laws only keep honest people honest. If you're willing to take a mass murder wrap, an illegally concealed weapon is the least of your concerns.


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## AdamR

CT has pretty tough fire arm laws. One thing to remember is someone who has no respect for life has no respect for firearm laws. Killing 18 children didnt bother him, I dont think he was worried about a gun charge.

This is all happening 5 minutes from were I live. my 2 children 7 and 9 are currently under lock down at school. Im a mess. theres rumors of possible 2 more people on the loose in connection to the shooting but I dont know if that is true.


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## LPMarshall hack

AdamR said:


> CT has pretty tough fire arm laws. One thing to remember is someone who has no respect for life has no respect for firearm laws. Killing 18 children didnt bother him, I dont think he was worried about a gun charge.
> 
> This is all happening 5 minutes from were I live. my 2 children 7 and 9 are currently under lock down at school. Im a mess. theres rumors of possible 2 more people on the loose in connection to the shooting but I dont know if that is true.



Oh man, you must be going crazy until you can actually hold your children. Hang in there bro.


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## LPMarshall hack

mickeydg5 said:


> There are shooting and bombings in lots of countries. I think it gets publicized and documented more in America.



Because it IS here in America. It could be my child, or yours, or any of ours.


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## crossroadsnyc

Frankie said:


> No, they occur in states that have reasonable firearms laws too, they just occur in locations where it's still illegal to carry such as schools, universities, etc... Like I said earlier, if you're going to shoot up a place do you want to shoot up a place where you might get shot back at or a place where you're 99.999% certain nobody has a gun? Much like locks, gun control laws only keep honest people honest. If you're willing to take a mass murder wrap, an illegally concealed weapon is the least of your concerns.



Exactly. It's no different than the Norwegian, Anders Breivik, who went on the rampage at the relatively secluded "Workers Youth League" camp ... he was able to gun down 69 people because he picked a place he knew nobody would shoot back (and yes, i'm using this as an example so that we can stop using the argument that this is a problem only found in the United States). Just as the prevent defense generally prevents you from winning (to quote john madden), gun fee zones generally prevent you from enjoying a safe gun free environment. You can't prevent tragedy ... you can only adapt to it as it occurs ... you swallow it, or it swallows you.


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## mickeydg5

No argument there.


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## VintageGuy

Frankie said:


> No, they occur in states that have reasonable firearms laws too, they just occur in locations where it's still illegal to carry such as schools, universities, etc... Like I said earlier, if you're going to shoot up a place do you want to shoot up a place where you might get shot back at or a place where you're 99.999% certain nobody has a gun? Much like locks, gun control laws only keep honest people honest. If you're willing to take a mass murder wrap, an illegally concealed weapon is the least of your concerns.



thanks for clarifying it!TV channels here are going nuts when a shooting spree occurs in the states.


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## Micky

I still approve of training and arming 'select' staff and teachers.


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## Frankie

crossroadsnyc said:


> Exactly. It's no different than the Norwegian, Anders Breivik, who went on the rampage at the relatively secluded "Workers Youth League" camp ... he was able to gun down 69 people because he picked a place he knew nobody would shoot back (and yes, i'm using this as an example so that we can stop using the argument that this is a problem only found in the United States). Just as the prevent defense generally prevents you from winning (to quote john madden), gun fee zones generally prevent you from enjoying a safe gun free environment. You can't prevent tragedy ... you can only adapt to it as it occurs ... you swallow it, or it swallows you.



Exactly! And criminals will always find a way to source themselves with firearms, so controlling guns really just unarms the honest citizen. Drugs are illegal in the USA, but I could make a phone call right now and probably have anything I wanted by the end of the day. Guns would be no different if completely outlawed.


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## AdamR

LPMarshall hack said:


> Oh man, you must be going crazy until you can actually hold your children. Hang in there bro.



Im smoking like a chimney and need a drink bad. Just like a member of GNR.


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## crossroadsnyc

Frankie said:


> Exactly! And criminals will always find a way to source themselves with firearms, so controlling guns really just unarms the honest citizen. Drugs are illegal in the USA, but I could make a phone call right now and probably have anything I wanted by the end of the day. Guns would be no different if completely outlawed.



Not to go off topic, but you just segued into another great point, which is that if the government was to do away w/the repressive drug laws, a lot of the gun violence we read about would disappear as well. A lot of this stuff is interrelated. The more laws you have, the more criminals you have.


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## Nudge68

Look up "Port Arthur massacre". My family and I missed being there by accident. I knew people there. Knew people who knew Martin Bryant. Been involved in 3 armed holdups as well. Many folk here have too I know. 

Cannot disagree with any view pro or anti fire arms control. A mad man will find a way to do harm fire arm or not.

Cheers,

Matt.


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## mickeydg5

AdamR said:


> CT has pretty tough fire arm laws. One thing to remember is someone who has no respect for life has no respect for firearm laws. Killing 18 children didnt bother him, I dont think he was worried about a gun charge.
> 
> This is all happening 5 minutes from were I live. my 2 children 7 and 9 are currently under lock down at school. Im a mess. theres rumors of possible 2 more people on the loose in connection to the shooting but I dont know if that is true.


Hang in there man.
I thought they were letting kids out. It seemed that way on news footage.


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## AdamR

The kids from the school involved have been moved to the fire dept. My children go to a different school which is still in lock down. No explanation why seeing the shooter is dead. Not sure if there are others involved not accounted for as of now.


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## Username2

Single shooter, reporters jumping to conclusions about a second. 

Shooter was 20 and the son of one of the teachers.... his Mom. Looks as if he killed her and her entire class of Kindergarteners. He shot himself also. How the other adults were killed IDK. 

The best thing that can happen is for the media to SHUT THE FUCK UP. It is the over-drama of evil events like this that give these sick fucks ideas. The 24-7 news cycle does a lot of harm. How so.... people become numb to these events.


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## Frankie

AdamR said:


> The kids from the school involved have been moved to the fire dept. My children go to a different school which is still in lock down. No explanation why seeing the shooter is dead. Not sure if there are others involved not accounted for as of now.



Most likely a little better-safe-than-sorry thinking, you know? I'm sure your kids are fine.


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## Grunch

Alt Freak said:


> Has anyone heard about this yet? CBS reporting 26 maybe 27 dead. What goes through someone's head to go to a school and kill small children?



It's simple - guns in america.


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## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> It's simple - guns in america.



guns don't kill people. fucked up in the head individuals w/ no sense kill people. 

thank God we keep a cop @ our local schools.


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> guns don't kill people. fucked up in the head individuals w/ no sense kill people.
> 
> thank God we keep a cop @ our local schools.



Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers. 

You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.


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## Frankie

That's because the kind of pussy who would shoot innocent kids probably isn't man enough to take down 28 people with a knife. You saw a picture of the shooter, right? I could break him in half with one arm.


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## SonVolt

blues_n_cues said:


> guns don't kill people. fucked up in the head individuals w/ no sense kill people.
> 
> thank God we keep a cop @ our local schools.




Grunch is functionally illiterate, ie a juvenile pest. No need to reason with him.


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## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers.
> 
> You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010–2011)

shall we go into suicide bombers ?


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## Grunch

SonVolt said:


> Grunch is a functionally illiterate juvenile pest. No need to reason with him.



You gonna shoot me now, gun man?


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_attacks_in_China_(2010%E2%80%932011)
> 
> shall we go into suicide bombers ?



I'm talking about America. The USA. Where mental instability and redneck gun mentality runs rampant.

Does suicide bombing happen a lot in america? Big problem in your area?


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## Frankie

Grunch said:


> Does suicide bombing happen a lot in america? Big problem in your area?



I guess the World Trade Center and the Unabomber are no big deal, huh?


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## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> I'm talking about America. The USA. Where redneck gun mentality runs rampant.
> 
> Does suicide bombing happen a lot in america? Big problem in your area?



really????

I'll just send a prayer. maybe you'll be a parent someday or just grow up some...

this thread isn't for you or your "humor"..


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## Grunch

Frankie said:


> That's because the kind of pussy who would shoot innocent kids probably isn't man enough to take down 28 people with a knife. You saw a picture of the shooter, right? I could break him in half with one arm.



That just makes my point for me. The dude is frail and weak, but a gun makes him capable of doing stuff like this.


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## V-man

crossroadsnyc said:


> Not to go off topic, but you just segued into another great point, which is that if the government was to do away w/the repressive drug laws, a lot of the gun violence we read about would disappear as well. A lot of this stuff is interrelated. The more laws you have, the more criminals you have.



Not to go ON topic, but the subjection of inter-relation applies with your point and with the "school issue" as well. School districts vary (as do those attending, down to the social problems and psycological trends), but that finger-pointing circle of "it's the: Teacher > School System > Parents > Society" stalemate applies here as well. 

The educational institution can be considered the same as the prison system. Despite best efforts, both institutions are statistical failures at their jobs (Education and Rehabilitation). Both have problematic elements in their respective populations, (convicts/students), good and bad handlers (teachers/guards) who are overwhelmed by their task and under powered to handle the task properly. Both have inadequate facilities and resources to handle the demands and expectations society places on each institution. Both have populations molded by shitty nurtures (parents, granmammies, fosters, etc) who were individually unwilling or incapable of doing the work necessary to raise the child right. Finally, society expects all these things from these institutions without providing the willingness to commit resources and ideology to see the jobs through, and most importantly, they provide many of the factors that stimulate the problems in the first place.

In other words, every fucker in the villiage owes a little more to himself and to his village than what he is willing to pay and these are the fruits he reaps for the shitty seeds he has sewn.


But people don't like to hear or accept they each bear some individual responsibility, and that certainly doesn't earn votes, so yeah... we'll blame guns, and if necessary... video games, music, and Teletubbies.


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> really????



Yeah, really. Do you get a lot of suicide bombing in Pennsyltucky?


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> really????
> 
> I'll just send a prayer. maybe you'll be a parent someday or just grow up some...
> 
> this thread isn't for you or your "humor"..



I'm not trying to be funny. I'm disguested that this happened and I'm disgusted with the white-trash gun mentality of America.


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## Frankie

Grunch said:


> That just makes my point for me. The dude is frail and weak, but a gun makes him capable of doing stuff like this.



You have a good point, but if you're the type of dude that wants to shoot up a school, do you really think acquiring a gun illegally is going to make him stop and think, "Man, I shouldn't do this. Guns are illegal." Regardless of the instrument used, murder is illegal universally around the world. I wonder why that didn't stop him?


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## blues_n_cues

well the widespread instant media coverage today doesn't help 1 bit.
these idiots want to be famous & probably watch themselves on their iphones or whatever right before they blast their own skulls open.


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## Söulcaster

Condolences to all affected.....

Rip to the victims

Peace


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## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> I'm not trying to be funny. I'm disguested that this happened and I'm disgusted with the white-trash gun mentality of America.



then you would know this does not happen where everyone is armed. 
crime stats have gone down up to 98% in the places that have a required carry law.

when was the last time someone shot up an NRA convention??


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## blues_n_cues

Söulcaster said:


> Condolences to all affected.....
> 
> Rip to the victims
> 
> Peace



THIS.


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## Grunch

Frankie said:


> do you really think acquiring a gun illegally is going to make him stop and think, ?



No, but guns are so ingrained in our culture now that there's no turning back, and we make it very easy for any fucking whacko to get their hands on one. I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often.


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## V-man

Grunch said:


> I'm not trying to be funny. I'm disguested that this happened and I'm disgusted with the white-trash gun mentality of America.



Yeah... Grunch, the outraged humanitarian.

Full of that righteous indignation... righting wrongs where he goes. Running down the ignorance of redneckdom from behind the wheel of his mighty Volvo!

That's right, folks. It's not that about 40% or so posting have a strong opinion on one side of the issue and taking up arms on the other side (pun intended) with some sideways pigeonholing isn't a trollish delight.

No indeed. Grunch cares. He really does!


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## 4STICKS

My heart breaks for those families.


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> then you would know this does not happen where everyone is armed.
> crime stats have gone down up to 98% in the places that have a required carry law.
> 
> when was the last time someone shot up an NRA convention??



So your answer is to arm everyone? Old ladies, kids, retards, everyone? Great idea. No one will ever get shot like that!


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## Grunch

V-man said:


> Yeah... Grunch. the outraged humanitarian.
> 
> Full of that riteous indignation... righting wrongs where he goes. Running down the ignorance of redneckdom from behind the wheel of his mighty Volvo.
> 
> That's right, folks. It's not that about 40% or so posting have a strong opinion on one side of the issue and taking up arms on the other side (pun intended) with some sideways pigeonholing isn't a trollish delight.
> 
> No indeed. Grunch cares. He really does.



Someone has to be a voice of reason in a country full of Nascar watching gun morons.


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## AdamR

Grunch said:


> Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers.
> 
> You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.



wow you are truely an asshole. Might want to check the news.

22 wounded in Chinese school stabbing | Times 247


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## V-man

Grunch said:


> Someone has to be a voice of reason in a country full of Nascar watching gun morons.



Indeed, that would be "Rosie O Donnell." She seems to share your "reasonable views" on the subject and expresses them similarly. Are you a fan of hers, or just her ideology and "colorful form of public speaking"?


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## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> Someone has to be a voice of reason in a country full of Nascar watching gun morons.



well some jersey shore lookalike from Florida ain't it.

did I remember you correctly?


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## Grunch

AdamR said:


> wow you are truely an asshole. Might want to check the news.
> 
> 22 wounded in Chinese school stabbing | Times 247



Yes, I saw that, but I'm talking about in America. Guns make it easy.


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## Grunch

V-man said:


> Indeed, that would be "Rosie O Donnell." She seems to share your "reasonable views" on the subject and expresses them similarly. Are you a fan of hers, or just her ideology and "colorful form of public speaking"?



Not a fan, but if she thinks gun people are stupid, I'll giver her credit for that.


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## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> well some jersey shore lookalike from Florida ain't it.
> 
> did I remember you correctly?



Lol. You remember my avatar. Well done.


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## V-man

Grunch said:


> Not a fan, but if she thinks gun people are stupid, I'll giver her credit for that.



Oh she does indeed. She hates guns, finds them icky and evil, loudly insults those who advocate, own and appreciate them (typically with the Redneck humor)... then (at least in the past) proceeds to retain armed "NASCAR-loving" bodyguards with access to better hardware than the highway patrol for her personal protection.


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## Grunch

V-man said:


> Oh she does indeed. She hates guns, finds them icky and evil, loudly insults those who advocate, own and appreciate them (typically with the Redneck humor)... then (at least in the past) proceeds to retain armed "NASCAR-loving" bodyguards with access to better hardware than the highway patrol for her personal protection.



Interesting. She hates guns but has to protect herself with guns from the morons with guns. Sounds like quite the conundrum!

Actually I wouldn't mind if one of you guntards shot her. I'll look away, go ahead.


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## scat7s

Grunch said:


> Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers.
> 
> You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.


 

how about a pipe bomb? 


and again, IF there were someone in that building also armed...it is concievable that the casualties may have been diminished in numbers.

im wondering, how the kid got in the building? at my kids school, they buzz you in, you cant just walk into the building and roam the halls.


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## mickeydg5

Grunch said:


> Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers.
> 
> You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.


 
That is because those individuals use homemade bombs.


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## Grunch

scat7s said:


> how about a pipe bomb?
> 
> 
> and again, IF there were someone in that building also armed...it is concievable that the casualties may have been diminished in numbers.



It's possible. sure.

I'm not saying to take anyone's guns away. I'm more retroactively pissed off about guns. We're stuck in this horrible rut of idiotic gun culture and violence that we've made ourselves. Sadly, having everyone everywhere locked and loaded might actually be the only answer. It sucks that one of the world's most powerful countries is in many ways still stuck in the vigilante days of 1800's.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Interesting. She hates guns but has to protect herself with guns from the morons with guns. Sounds like quite the conundrum!
> 
> Actually I wouldn't mind if one of you guntards shot her. I'll look away, go ahead.





Actually, she hates guns but feels the "need" to de facto arm herself to protect her and her adoption imports from whatever perceived threats, whether armed or not. 

I am quite confident that the gun grabbing retards would look the other way concerning their celebribeast' hero's hypocrisy and shout to the unwashed that "having a gun offers no practical protection, and that the real danger is the gunowner himself in the home". Normally I take exception with this line of thought, but I am inclined to agree in Rosie's case. After all, she is neither important nor relevant enough to be remotely considered as a target (and what an unmissable one that fucker would be) from these so-called NASCAR assassins. If only her precious bodyguards could protect her from the spoons in the kitchen, bathroom and nightstand... the real threat to her safety.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> If only her precious bodyguards could protect her from the spoons in the kitchen, bathroom and nightstand... the real threat to her safety.


Lol.


----------



## mickeydg5

Grunch said:


> It's possible. sure.
> 
> I'm not saying to take anyone's guns away. I'm more retroactively pissed off about guns. We're stuck in this horrible rut of idiotic gun culture and violence that we've made ourselves. Sadly, having everyone everywhere locked and loaded might actually be the only answer. It sucks that one of the world's most powerful countries is in many ways still stuck in the vigilante days of 1800's.


 
I think you mean that the US has the least chance of total martial law, goverment and military takeover.

Maybe I am confused.


----------



## Grunch

mickeydg5 said:


> I think you mean that the US has the least chance of total martial law, goverment and military takeover.
> 
> Maybe I am confused.



I think you are because there's no way the bible-belt honey-boo-boo's in this country are holding off the government even if they all shot at the same time. People with guns aren't what's keeping Obamerica from impregnating your white daughters with socialism and free health care for all..


----------



## AdamR

Guns, Bombs, knives, doesnt matter. If someone wants to kill people they will find a away. Criminals arent worried about breaking laws.

My kids just got home. Enjoy your night !


----------



## mickeydg5

Grunch said:


> I think you are because there's no way the bible-belt honey-boo-boo's in this country are holding off the government even if they all shot at the same time. People with guns aren't what's keeping Obamerica from impregnating your white daughters with socialism and free health care for all..


It is not a perfect machine and all empires fall.


----------



## Grunch

mickeydg5 said:


> It is not a perfect machine and all empires fall.



It's falling right now. A divided populace on literally every topic is a big part of it.


----------



## anitoli

AdamR said:


> Guns, Bombs, knives, doesnt matter. If someone wants to kill people they will find a away. Criminals arent worried about breaking laws.
> 
> My kids just got home. Enjoy your night !


 
Yeah for how many eons was the sword king of the killing devices?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> That just makes my point for me. The dude is frail and weak, but a gun makes him capable of doing stuff like this.



I think you've inadvertently made another point, which is that of a level playing field ... the firearm is the great equalizer which enables everyone to defend themselves. The right of the frail / weak / elderly / women / etc., to have equal ability to protect their own lives, far outweighs random acts of violence that will occur anyway (in some fashion, that is). After all, we don't outlaw motor vehicles just because a small percentage of the population drive drunk and wind up killing people as a result.


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> Yeah for how many eons was the sword king of the killing devices?



Ahhhh, so we are making progress. Rocks, swords, guns, what's next? I can't wait for regular people to start splitting their own atoms to make their own home protection nuclear devices. Hopefully no one will use one in a school or at a mall. That will make guns look pretty tame, then you can all say I told ya so!


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> I think you are because there's no way the bible-belt honey-boo-boo's in this country are holding off the government even if they all shot at the same time. People with guns aren't what's keeping Obamerica from impregnating your white daughters with socialism and free health care for all..





mickeydg5 said:


> It is not a perfect machine and all empires fall.



All it took was a Ryder Truck and some fertilizer to derail the Federal government in OK. The government rules by the willingness of the people in this country. That works when people eat and can buy the next Season of Madden on X box. Take away the Madden '13, and you shake off a little apathy. Start threatening people's ability to look after themselves, and all it takes is 1% willing and organized enough to "do something" amidst the other 74% bitching about it.

OKC was a very serious wake up call about how fragile the whole house of cards can be. It's not a Davie Crockett "NASCAR Militia" vs. the National Guard... 

It's the adult equivalent of this pissed off angsty school shooting fuck who decides to make a statement and bring collateral damage with him. One angry man, one airport, courthouse, refinery, shipping port, etc. and no budget to lock secure every one of this nation's strategic and security interests.


----------



## JayCM800

If there were no guns available... someone intent on killing will still find away to perpetrate.

The gun debate is fundamentally a constitutional issue.... I thought RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL discussions were not allowed on the forum...


----------



## B.Gloob

Teachers aren't above mental illness nor are they immune to stress, far from it. Arming them in schools might be creating a much bigger problem?


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> I think you've inadvertently made another point, which is that of a level playing field ... the firearm is the great equalizer which enables everyone to defend themselves. The right of the frail / weak / elderly / women / etc., to have equal ability to protect their own lives, far outweighs random acts of violence that will occur anyway (in some fashion, that is). After all, we don't outlaw motor vehicles just because a small percentage of the population drive drunk and wind up killing people as a result.



It's pretty fucking sad that we need everyone to carry a gun for "equalization". Why are we at this point? Oh yeah, it's in our stupid fucking constitution. It's really sad that the elderly has to carry a gun. They can't program their fucking VCR's or turn a blinker off after making a lane change, but they're gonna have firearms. Awesome.

Hey Jimbob, whatcha got thar?

That thar is ma equalizer.


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> I can't wait for regular people to start splitting their own atoms to make their own home protection nuclear devices.


 
I do and i hope the sumbitch lives next to you when that forced entry occurs......


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Hell, I just read the news proper and my first thought is, poor kids, poor parents.
Nothing to be done there anymore. 
Unfortunately things like this happen everywhere. It happened in the Netherlands (at a mall, not a school) In Germany, Finland, Scotland.
The more I hear and read about this, the more questions I have but that is not really important at this point.

It's just very very sad.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> OKC was a very serious wake up call about how fragile the whole house of cards can be. It's not a Davie Crockett "NASCAR Militia" vs. the National Guard...
> 
> .



Ok, you take your UHaul trucks full of fertilizer and get to work. See how far you get. The american public can't even decide on a winner for Dancing With the Stars, yet you think the people can band together to overthrow a government?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> It's pretty fucking sad that we need everyone to carry a gun for "equalization". Why are we at this point? Oh yeah, it's in our stupid fucking constitution. It's really sad that the elderly has to carry a gun. They can't program their fucking VCR's or turn a blinker off after making a lane change, but they're gonna have firearms. Awesome.
> 
> Hey Jimbob, whatcha got thar?
> 
> That thar is ma equalizer.



Yes, it's in our Constitution ... and for very good reason ... a good portion of which I just explained w/respect to having the right to defend yourself from violence and tyranny. At the same time, you also have the right to not defend yourself ... if that's your choice, well, that's perfectly fine.


----------



## scat7s

B.Gloob said:


> Teachers aren't above mental illness nor are they immune to stress, far from it. Arming them in schools might be creating a much bigger problem?


 
im sure there would be incidents, there is never a solution that will work for everyone, all the time. its simply not possible. 

but in your scenario, all it would take would be additional teachers/school personnel to ALSO have a firearm and therefore the ability to meet and disable the "loose cannon" on a level playing field.


----------



## B.Gloob

It's happened up here in Canada too:

The National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women was created by Parliament in 1991 to recognize the tragic murders of 14 women at l'École Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989. These women died at the hands of a gunman who targeted them solely because they were women.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> Yes, it's in our Constitution ... and for very good reason ... a good portion of which I just explained w/respect to having the right to defend yourself from violence and tyranny. At the same time, you also have the right to not defend yourself ... if that's your choice, well, that's perfectly fine.



We shouldn't have to defend ourselves from anything. We're having to defend ourselves from a monster that we created. The wording of the constitution is out of date. It needs a setup and new tubes.


----------



## anitoli

B.Gloob said:


> It's happened up here in Canada too:
> 
> The National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence Against Women was created by Parliament in 1991 to recognize the tragic murders of 14 women at l'École Polytechnique in Montreal in 1989. These women died at the hands of a gunman who targeted them solely because they were women.


 
Great point. Canada smokes the US in violent crime rates but, it can happen anywhere.


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> We shouldn't have to defend ourselves from anything. We're having to defend ourselves from a monster that we created. The wording of the constitution is out of date. It needs a setup and new tubes.


 
....maybe we "shouldnt" have to, but the fact is, we do have to. 

as all men of all eras and regions have had to do before us.

find me a place and time in history anywhere in world, where men, women and children were safe from external and internal threats


----------



## The Ozzk

I can only imagine the pain those parents are going through being a parent myself. Please Grunch no need for "smart" remarks or name calling like "bible-belt-honey-boo-boo's".

This is a sad day worldwide, not only for America. May these innocent souls rest in peace.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> It's pretty fucking sad that we need everyone to carry a gun for "equalization". Why are we at this point? Oh yeah, it's in our stupid fucking constitution. It's really sad that the elderly has to carry a gun. They can't program their fucking VCR's or turn a blinker off after making a lane change, but they're gonna have firearms. Awesome.
> 
> Hey Jimbob, whatcha got thar?
> 
> That thar is ma equalizer.



No, that's playing into the same retarded argument every gun-grabber erroneously spews.


Bu-buut if they allowed concealed carry in MY state, EVERYBODY would be armed and it would be the wild west in my town...

buh-but if they allowed guns on campus all the students would be drunk and armed and it would be the wild west over there!!!


Um, no.


Having the right and exercising it are two distinct issues... something antis can't get their head around. Having the ability to arm oneself is not compulsory that he does, or even an indicator many will. case in point...

By my recollection, the Batman shooting was in CO, and Concealed Carry is legal (and AFAIK permissible at that movie theater) there. Despite having that right to carry concealed, the only person who showed up armed there was the shooter. There was no wild west scenario of 50 moviegoers annihilating each other in the crossfire. Just as I grabbed an M&P and jammed 2 mags in my pocket to see the midnight screening of The Hobbit last night, ANY of those theatergoers could have done the same. If ONE of them did, the tragedy may have been averted or at least reduced.

The issue is passing legislation that interferes with the few people who make the commitment to buy carry (and hopefully train with) the weapon that can stop a deadly felony from happening or from progressing. It's not the advocacy of a military society.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> ....maybe we "shouldnt" have to, but the fact is, we do have to.
> 
> as all men of all eras and regions have had to do before us.



More guns for everyone! 

That simply cannot be the solution. Surely no intelligent, rational person thinks that more guns in the hands of more people is the answer.


----------



## mickeydg5

Grunch said:


> Ahhhh, so we are making progress. Rocks, swords, guns, what's next? I can't wait for regular people to start splitting their own atoms to make their own home protection nuclear devices. Hopefully no one will use one in a school or at a mall. That will make guns look pretty tame, then you can all say I told ya so!


Hmmm?
Dragonball.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> More guns for everyone!
> 
> That simply cannot be the solution. Surely no intelligent, rational person thinks that more guns in the hands of more people is the answer.



I assume you haven't read my post above before this comment.

It's not about MORE guns. It's about allowing those (other than the criminals) to choose whether they are willing to protect themselves with a firearm.


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> More guns for everyone!
> 
> That simply cannot be the solution. Surely no intelligent, rational person thinks that more guns in the hands of more people is the answer.


 
ok, so you take away the guns from compliant citizens. now what? 

you know where im going right? 

remember the cold war? what was the theme in that "conflict"? assured mutual destruction, aka: deterrance.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> No, that's playing into the same retarded argument every gun-grabber erroneously spews.
> 
> 
> Bu-buut if they allowed concealed carry in MY state, EVERYBODY would be armed and it would be the wild west in my town...
> 
> buh-but if they allowed guns on campus all the students would be drunk and armed and it would be the wild west over there!!!
> 
> 
> Um, no.
> 
> 
> Having the right and exercising it are two distinct issues... something antis can't get their head around. Having the ability to arm oneself is not compulsory that he does, or even an indicator many will. case in point...
> 
> By my recollection, the Batman shooting was in CO, and Concealed Carry is legal (and AFAIK permissible at that movie theater) there. Despite having that right to carry concealed, the only person who showed up armed there was the shooter. There was no wild west scenario of 50 moviegoers annihilating each other in the crossfire. Just as I grabbed an M&P and jammed 2 mags in my pocket to see the midnight screening of The Hobbit last night, ANY of those theatergoers could have done the same. If ONE of them did, the tragedy may have been averted or at least reduced.
> 
> The issue is passing legislation that interferes with the few people who make the commitment to buy carry (and hopefully train with) the weapon that can stop a deadly felony from happening or from progressing. It's not the advocacy of a military society.



You have a realy utopian view of gun society. You've got yourself convinced, but it aint working on me. I see humans as worse than that. You don't see anything wrong with proudly jamming mags into your pocket just to go see a movie? Who are you, fucking Rambo? And you want everyone else to do the same? That's fucking insane dude. I don't begrudge your right to be armed to the gills like a paranoid madman just hoping he can draw on someone one day, I just think it's fucked up that you celebrate that.


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> More guns for everyone!
> 
> That simply cannot be the solution. Surely no intelligent, rational person thinks that more guns in the hands of more people is the answer.


 
Maybe not but i have brandished firearms TWICE in attempted illicit entry situations and retained control of the stuation. When some perp is crawling through your window at 3:15 AM and you walk into the room and slam that round into the chamber of your Mossberg 500, any perp who wants to have a long and healty criminal career had better fuckin know what that sound is......


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Guns allow fucked up people to do it easily, quickly, and in big numbers.
> 
> You never hear of some dude running into a school with a knife and killing 28 people.



The fuck you don't. the US media pukes just don't get a lot of milage out of those stories. What do you call this shit today. 

*China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren*

China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren - World - CBC News


I get so fucking sick of the dumbass blaming guns. I carry because of shit like this. Its our culture Grunch, we have a country that has become Godless.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> ok, so you take away the guns from compliant citizens. now what?
> 
> you know where im going right?
> 
> remember the cold war? what was the theme in that "conflict"? assured mutual destruction, aka: deterrance.



I never said to take guns away. And I'm not saying to give everyone guns. I don't have the answer. I just don't like the idea of more guns in the hands of more people. And I really don't like the pry-it-from-my-cold-dead-hand mentality of many gun nuts. I think the decent law abiding people that carry are just hoping and praying for the day that they can use it.


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> More guns for everyone!
> 
> That simply cannot be the solution. Surely no intelligent, rational person thinks that more guns in the hands of more people is the answer.


 
Read Jon Lott More Guns Less Crime.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> I get so fucking sick of the dumbass blaming guns. I carry because of shit like this. Its our culture Grunch, we have a country that has become Godless.



I get it dude. I really do. I just hate it. I don't know if God has anything to do with it, but I hate that people want to carry guns around. I hate that people feel they need to carry a gun to a movie theater. And I hate that people want more guns out there. Pro-gun or anti-gun, it's all bad.


----------



## JayCM800

WTF is this The Grunch live chat now?? Lay off! You don't have to answer to everyone's replies!

All i see is this shit all over the place now: "This message is hidden because *Grunch* is on your ignore list."


----------



## mickeydg5

I personally never met a gun nut and have never been to one of these arms ownership celebrations.
But I do not get out much.


----------



## Grunch

JayCM800 said:


> WTF is this The Grunch live chat now?? Lay off! You don't have to answer to everyone's replies!
> 
> All i see is this shit all over the place now: "This message is hidden because *Grunch* is on your ignore list."



Hey dummy, I'm talking to people. They're talking to me. We're all talking. STFU now.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> You have a realy utopian view of gun society. You've got yourself convinced, but it aint working on me. I see humans as worse than that. You don't see anything wrong with proudly jamming mags into your pocket just to go see a movie? Who are you, fucking Rambo? And you want everyone else to do the same? That's fucking insane dude. I don't begrudge your right to be armed to the gills like a paranoid madman just hoping he can draw on someone one day, I just think it's fucked up that you celebrate that.



I don't think I am giving you undue credit in assuming your reading comprehension is better than what your commentary suggests, and that instead (as per your penchant) you are relishing the distortion of posts to further some argument.

For the THIRD time now... I don't advocate EVERYBODY do the same and you know better (or ought to by now). Obviously, "Rambo" over here needs to remind you that he has already been lucky enough to deter one armed robber who shot at him, with the firearm he carried that night, so your "draw on somebody one day fantasy" has no currency. The reality is violent crime happens. It has happened to me, and has and will happen to many others. Most people set themselves up to be victims. I generally take steps not to be, and that paid off when my number was (last) called. 

The issue is not about forcing guns on those who don't want them, nor pressuring those who accept them to do that which they otherwise choose not to. The issue is about correcting the retardation and ignorance of those who are offended by guns thinking that restricting everybody's rights somehow solves or improves the situation, when in fact, it does not at all.


----------



## mickeydg5

Grunch, it is good to have you back.  

I just hope everyone stays docile.


----------



## AdamR

Grunch, which perfect country do you live in ?


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> I don't think I am giving you undue credit in assuming your reading comprehension is better than what your commentary suggests, and that instead (as per your penchant) you are relishing the distortion of posts to further some argument.
> 
> For the THIRD time now... I don't advocate EVERYBODY do the same and you know better (or ought to by now). Obviously, "Rambo" over here needs to remind you that he has already been lucky enough to deter one armed robber who shot at him, with the firearm he carried that night, so your "draw on somebody one day fantasy" has no currency. The reality is violent crime happens. It has happened to me, and has and will happen to many others. Most people set themselves up to be victims. I generally take steps not to be, and that paid off when my number was (last) called.
> 
> The issue is not about forcing guns on those who don't want them, nor pressuring those who accept them to do that which they otherwise choose not to. The issue is about correcting the retardation and ignorance of those who are offended by guns thinking that restricting everybody's rights somehow solves or improves the situation, when in fact, it does not at all.



Speaking of reading comprehension, get some yourself. I've said like 3 times now that I'm not proposing we take guns away. I get all that. The problem is that there is no middle ground whatsoever. Bad guys with guns are the problem right? We can agree on that? So how do you combat that? Everyone's answer seems to be "more guns for the good guys". I don't buy that. Nor do I buy that we should outlaw guns because the fucks of the country will still have them. It's a no-win for everyone. There is no right answer.


----------



## V-man

AdamR said:


> Grunch, which perfect country do you live in ?



No country, the State of Denial.

The state's anthem: Faith No More - We Care A Lot - YouTube


----------



## Grunch

AdamR said:


> Grunch, which perfect country do you live in ?



Shutthefuckupistan


----------



## Username2

The issue is our culture. Kids today are exposed to very realistic violence in all media. Movies and Video Games, their phones,and TV. How many kids you know that spend all day blowing shit up and killing in a game. Then they flip on the TV and the same thing. The kids are numb to killing because they have grown up with it. How many parents ignore their kids and just put them in from of a game or TV so they don't bother them. Then we adults get the media ramming the shit down our throats.

Maybe this is why I don't ever go see movies anymore or watch much TV.


----------



## bulldozer1984

nothing can stop this.. 

If you have Armed Guards, you need HUNDREDS on them.. A couple of Guards cant patrol the whole School at the same time.. 

Armed teachers ?? Yeh maybe, but if a Woman in her mid fifties is teaching a class and a guy walks in with several guns n ammo, could she really take him down ?? Think about it.. She might be able to, but chances are she is gunna freeze up..

You could lock it up like a prison (Electronic Doors and Swipe Card Access for example) but people still kill people in prison. So a guy carrying weapons and wanting to kill people is gunna get in there which ever way he can.. PLUS, his mother was a teacher there, so he could just say its an Emergency and needs to see her.. 

Unfortunately there is no way to stop this..


----------



## AdamR

Grunch said:


> Shutthefuckupistan



Never heard of it. Must be a nice place seeing nothing bad ever happens there.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Speaking of reading comprehension, get some yourself. I've said like 3 times now that I'm not proposing we take guns away. I get all that. The problem is that there is no middle ground whatsoever. Bad guys with guns are the problem right? We can agree on that? So how do you combat that? Everyone's answer seems to be "more guns for the good guys". I don't buy that. Nor do I buy that we should outlaw guns because the fucks of the country will still have them. It's a no-win for everyone. There is no right answer.



Including this you have said multiple times that someone is advocating MORE guns. Nobody to my recollection, and CERTAINLY not myself has advocated MORE. People have simply taken issue with the "zones" that prohibit firearms possession by all but cops and criminals. 

Thus, people are arguing with that legislation, yet you make zero commentary on THAT and instead interject "retarded rednecks" and "good idea, more guns".... two themes that have nothing to do with the posts to which you respond.


----------



## AdamR

V-man said:


> No country, the State of Denial.
> 
> The state's anthem: Faith No More - We Care A Lot - YouTube



what an awesome song.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> No country, the State of Denial.
> 
> The state's anthem: Faith No More - We Care A Lot - YouTube



Lol. I'm not in denail. If anything I'm keenly aware at what a clusterfuck this rednecked ass-backwards country is. 

Somehow I don't think our founding fathers or good people that fought for us in world wars envisioned this country sinking to the depths that we have.


----------



## Username2

.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Including this you have said multiple times that someone is advocating MORE guns. Nobody to my recollection, and CERTAINLY not myself has advocated MORE.



Here's one from earlier....



blues_n_cues said:


> then you would know this does not happen where everyone is armed.


----------



## JayCM800

Grunch said:


> Hey dummy, I'm talking to people. They're talking to me. We're all talking. STFU now.


 yeah, you talkin like we talkin, waste of bandwith and screen clutter, now please get banned fo'real this time motherfucker:


----------



## Grunch

JayCM800 said:


> yeah, you talkin like we talkin, waste of bandwith and screen clutter, now please get banned fo'real this time motherfucker:



Ok cool, see ya the next time you need a little attention from grunch.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Here's one from earlier....



exception noted and granted.

If you are in favor of ending "firearms free zones" but feel that compulsory arming of people is stupid, then we can proceed to blow each other in agreement.

If not, we go back to my last post (with the above granted exception).


----------



## SonVolt

Grunch said:


> I don't have the answer..




Of course you don't. You offer the same incoherent ramblings of an autistic 3-year-old. Limited intellectual development does not produce answers.


----------



## scat7s

hey, ive got an advertisement at the top of my screen for that dexter character...ive never seen the show, but i think its the one where the protaganist is actually a serial killer....

what a cool concept! bet their ratings are thru the roof!


----------



## bulldozer1984

nuke said:


> .



yeh i used to love massacring people on games, but that is where it stops, on games.. People that want to do this type of thing are gunna do it no matter what.. 

Video Games dont breed killers, killers just happen to play Video Games.

EDIT:- you why you delete your post Nuke ?


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> exception noted and granted.
> 
> If you are in favor of ending "firearms free zones" but feel that compulsory arming of people is stupid, then we can proceed to blow each other in agreement.
> 
> If not, we go back to my last post (with the above granted exception).



I'm down with you blowing me. 

Nah it's cool. I think I can agree with the premise of your points. I don't like it necessarily, but I can accept it given the state of society today.​


----------



## Grunch

SonVolt said:


> Of course you don't. You offer the same incoherent ramblings of an autistic 3-year-old. Limited intellectual development does not produce answers.



We're like peas in a pod, huh?


----------



## scat7s

bulldozer1984 said:


> yeh i used to love massacring people on games, but that is where it stops, on games.. People that want to do this type of thing are gunna do it no matter what..
> 
> Video Games dont breed killers, killers just happen to play Video Games.
> 
> EDIT:- you why you delete your post Nuke ?


 

with glorification of violence at every turn, a young fragile mind is unpredictable at best. 

you cant legislate crazy.


----------



## blackone

JayCM800 said:


> WTF is this The Grunch live chat now?? Lay off! You don't have to answer to everyone's replies!
> 
> All i see is this shit all over the place now: "This message is hidden because *Grunch* is on your ignore list."




if you take him off your ignore list, then you wont see those messages, it's pretty simple really.


----------



## anitoli

bulldozer1984 said:


> nothing can stop this..
> 
> If you have Armed Guards, you need HUNDREDS on them.. A couple of Guards cant patrol the whole School at the same time..
> 
> Armed teachers ?? Yeh maybe, but if a Woman in her mid fifties is teaching a class and a guy walks in with several guns n ammo, could she really take him down ?? Think about it.. She might be able to, but chances are she is gunna freeze up..
> 
> You could lock it up like a prison (Electronic Doors and Swipe Card Access for example) but people still kill people in prison. So a guy carrying weapons and wanting to kill people is gunna get in there which ever way he can.. PLUS, his mother was a teacher there, so he could just say its an Emergency and needs to see her..
> 
> Unfortunately there is no way to stop this..


 
Maybe you cant stop it but you can draw from history......

Early in the 70's Israel had a grade school attacked by Hamas, killing a bunch of kids. Being on the edge of terrorism they trained some teachers in para-military combat techniques as a conter-measure to future attacks. The teachers went to class packing an Uzi. When the repeat was attempted the Hamas terrorists were unsuccsessful. Hamas 4, kids 0. The scholl shooting thing has never been attempted in Israel again.


----------



## Heavy Metal

This issue goes beyond guns and the availability of them. This is a behavioral issue that seems to permeate our society at an alarming rate, yet rather than getting these people the help they need behaviors and warning signs are ignored until a tragedy like this happens and everyone wants to blame the weapon rather than the individuals problems or illness. It's truly a sad day...


----------



## cowsgomoo

obviously you have the 'weapons conveniently available to a murderous nut job' discussion covered... so i'll chip in with a new angle...

an important question is - how do we better identify (and help) mentally unstable young men before they go batshit and do things like this. This won't have come out of the blue...


----------



## Les Moore

1 1/2 weeks before Christmas... Jesus Christ the pain those parents must go through...
I am just so sorry for them. So sorry.


----------



## anitoli

Heavy Metal said:


> This issue goes beyond guns and the availability of them. This is a behavioral issue that seems to permeate our society at an alarming rate, yet rather than getting these people the help they need behaviors and warning signs are ignored until a tragedy like this happens and everyone wants to blame the weapon rather than the individuals problems or illness. It's truly a sad day...


 
We USED to be able to until Federal funding for psychiatric hospitals was decimated in the 1980's..................


----------



## Micky

cowsgomoo said:


> obviously you have the 'weapons conveniently available to a murderous nut job' discussion covered... so i'll chip in with a new angle...
> 
> an important question is - how do we better identify (and help) mentally unstable young men before they go batshit and do things like this. This won't have come out of the blue...



You can't.

All you can do is screen those entering the school.
Better security HAS to happen in ALL public schools...


----------



## 50WPLEXI

Hearing "The worst mass killing in U.S. history" is getting so fucking old. When the Constitution was written long ago "The right to bare arms" had a real meaning. It really does not apply to the same lifestyle today. 

Those poor families. I can't even begin to imagine what they must be dealing with. At some point the gun control problem has to be dealt with from the top to the bottom. 

As a parent of two small kids it just makes me sick to think this could happen anywhere. Fucking people who do this type of stuff, how bad can life be?

I wish I had an answer to this instead of bitching about it.


----------



## scat7s

anitoli said:


> We USED to be able to until Federal funding for psychiatric hospitals was decimated in the 1980's..................


 

enter stage right: big pharma

big pharma: " here kid, take this pill twice a day after eating. you'll be far too apathetic to actually act anything out...,.... probably..."


----------



## Heavy Metal

cowsgomoo said:


> obviously you have the 'weapons conveniently available to a murderous nut job' discussion covered... so i'll chip in with a new angle...
> 
> an important question is - how do we better identify (and help) mentally unstable young men before they go batshit and do things like this. This won't have come out of the blue...



It starts early. Parents are quick to dismiss the possibility their child or children may have problems. With therapy and some medications people can still be productive in society. There are too many barriers and stigmas that exist and being mentally ill is not a death sentence nor do these people need to be institutionalized. They need help, they don't need to be thrown away and forgotten like an old pair of shoes...


----------



## anitoli

cowsgomoo said:


> obviously you have the 'weapons conveniently available to a murderous nut job' discussion covered... so i'll chip in with a new angle...
> 
> an important question is - how do we better identify (and help) mentally unstable young men before they go batshit and do things like this. This won't have come out of the blue...


 
First you need to get the NRA to lay off this bullshit of medical records being private, especially mental records. Jared Laughtner could have been arrested at the FFL dealers store. He lied on the fed paper work which is a Felony with a 5 year sentence. Question 8 specifically asks about mental hospital involutary admission. If you answer yes you cant buy a gun. Laughtner put no there. If the FBI could have accessed his med records they would have seen he was determined to be paranoid schitzofrenic by 3 psychiatrists. They could have bagged him on the spot saving that little girls life.

For some reason the NRA thinks this should be off limits. I wholeheartedly disagree.


----------



## Heavy Metal

anitoli said:


> We USED to be able to until Federal funding for psychiatric hospitals was decimated in the 1980's..................



Priorities!!! pretty sad really.


----------



## JayCM800

blackone said:


> if you take him off your ignore list, then you wont see those messages, it's pretty simple really.


Wow, are you in your right mind suggesting that his posts are worth reading?  

If you like him that much... just leave me out of it!


----------



## anitoli

scat7s said:


> enter stage right: big pharma
> 
> big pharma: " here kid, take this pill twice a day after eating. you'll be far too apathetic to actually act anything out...,.... probably..."


 
Hmmm.....So have you ever noticed the correlation of increased anti-depressant use and the increase of mass murders-suicides?


----------



## anitoli

Heavy Metal said:


> Priorities!!! pretty sad really.


 
Yup, when in reality the US could afford it. Easily.


----------



## scat7s

anitoli said:


> Hmmm.....So have you ever noticed the correlation of increased anti-depressant use and the increase of mass murders-suicides?


 
ive never seen numbers, but yeah, its crossed my mind once or twice...ironic isnt it, that anti-depressants can increase thoughts of violence or suicide in some percentage of its users?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Ironic... Some side effects of Anti-depressants is increased suicide thoughts? Shit. Anything else? Is everything labeled?

And like another thread, are ALL testing results accurate, or better said: Are all of the tests exposed? Not just releasing what is convenient?


----------



## anitoli

scat7s said:


> ive never seen numbers, but yeah, its crossed my mind once or twice...ironic isnt it, that anti-depressants can increase thoughts of violence or suicide in some percentage of its users?


 
Big time ironic. The numbers are higher than they want to let on about.
When big pharme feels that it is nessesary to put suicide warnings on these types of meds that's a huge RED FLAG.


----------



## scat7s

SmokeyDopey said:


> Ironic... Some side effects of Anti-depressants is increased suicide thoughts? Shit. Anything else? Is everything labeled?
> 
> And like another thread, are ALL testing results accurate, or better said: Are all of the tests exposed? Not just releasing what is convenient?


 
you know better than that smokey.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

scat7s said:


> you know better than that smokey.


 
Just throwing the questions out there


----------



## Heavy Metal

anitoli said:


> Hmmm.....So have you ever noticed the correlation of increased anti-depressant use and the increase of mass murders-suicides?



That is why it is so important that the evaluation and assesment is accurate... mis-diagnosis could result in disaster.


----------



## Grunch

I wonder what kind of psychological toll this is gonna take on the kids that saw their classmates get blasted.


----------



## anitoli

Heavy Metal said:


> That is why it is so important that the evaluation and assesment is accurate... mis-diagnosis could result in disaster.


 
Exactly. The burden falls back onto society. Are we willing to keep going down this same road or find a better solution to the mental health dilemma? Are we willing to allow more of our kids to be slaughterd or are we willing to cough up a little more coin to find a more workable solution?

Nobody wants to care for the mentally ill. This needs to change. Throwing them out on the street isnt working..........


----------



## Far Rider

R.I.P little one's.


----------



## anitoli

Check out the massive escalation after the 80's starts.

Timeline: School violence in the U.S. - CNN.com


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Horrible, horrible. Hope the best for the affected ones. I can't imagine being a parent of one of those kids. Beyond overwhelming... God damn


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Les Moore said:


> 1 1/2 weeks before Christmas... Jesus Christ the pain those parents must go through...
> I am just so sorry for them. So sorry.



I feel the same way. I've been sick about this all day.


----------



## 4STICKS

LPMarshall hack said:


> I feel the same way. I've been sick about this all day.


 I have a 12 yearold daughter. I can't imagine. God I hurt for those people.


----------



## brp

What a nightmare.

I echo the sentiments that schools have got to become a lot more secure there.
They seem to attract those looking to afflict as much horror upon society as possible before taking their sad self out of it.

I know that will be incredibly problematic to accomplish but.... look at the alternative.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

V-man said:


> It's the Posted NO FIREARMS ZONES...
> 
> They somehow draw out the psycopaths and criminals.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have sympathy for the families but here we go again. Another shooting in another school with another NO FIREARMS law in another Gun-Restrictive state. Maybe it's time people figure out these stupid fucking laws aren't observed by the criminals and unstable and we provide an actual means of defense.
> 
> I for one think a class action law suit should be raised against EVERY institution that hosts (yes I believe these delusional establishments are literally responsible for hosting) these massacres, PARTICULARLY the universities.



Gun free zones = victim zone

But the thought of some teachers with guns scares me.


----------



## 4STICKS

longfxukxnhair said:


> Gun free zones = victim zone
> 
> But the thought of some teachers with guns scares me.



Oh yeah... Ms. pound third grade. But they could'a let Mr. jones have one.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

I don't think guns should totally be eradicated from citizens in the US. 

Something needs to be altered though to avert nut jobs coming into possession of them.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

cowsgomoo said:


> an important question is - how do we better identify (and help) mentally unstable young men before they go batshit and do things like this. This won't have come out of the blue...



Very good point, and I'll draw upon a Carl Sagan point of view of which I hold in my own refuge:- 

"An extraterrestrial being, newly arrived on Earth - scrutinizing what we mainly present to our children in television, radio, movies, newspapers, magazines, the comics, and many books - might easily conclude that we are intent on teaching them murder, rape, cruelty, superstition, credulity, and consumerism. We keep at it, and through constant repetition many of them finally get it.” 
― Carl Sagan


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I don't think guns should totally be eradicated from citizens in the US.



Good thing you dont get a say.

No offense bro.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Good thing you dont get a say.
> 
> No offense bro.



No offense, but neither do you!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> No offense, but neither do you!



I do get a say. If they try to disarm the public there will be an uprising. This being the country I live in and you dont, I will get a say if it comes to that.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I do get a say. If they try to disarm the public there will be an uprising. This being the country I live in and you dont, I will get a say if it comes to that.



 an uprising? 

That made me chuckle a bit. 

Are you aware that you're owned like cattle? you don't have freedom of speech? - you're property is not yours and you're pretty much defenseless against the state? 

Just like me and everyone else.. just lilliputians farting in the wind of life .. in a system that's not ours. 

You think voting does anything? - you think that pantomime of politics is real? - you believe in the reality they give you? - the ego of your self that they teach and program into from school up... 


I don't have a say in anything, and neither do you. 

You might have a say in changing the flag of your local town community hall... 

But a say on gun laws?  

Even the president doesn't have a look in..


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> an uprising?
> 
> That made me chuckle a bit.
> 
> Are you aware that you're owned like cattle? you don't have freedom of speech? - you're property is not yours and you're pretty much defenseless against the state?
> 
> Just like me and everyone else.. just lilliputians farting in the wind of life .. in a system that's not ours.
> 
> You think voting does anything? - you think that pantomime of politics is real? - you believe in the reality they give you? - the ego of your self that they teach and program into from school up...
> 
> 
> I don't have a say in anything, and neither do you.
> 
> You might have a say in changing the flag of your local town community hall...
> 
> But a say on gun laws?
> 
> Even the president doesn't have a look in..



I think you have read enough of my post to know I feel as you do. I know the 2 party system is a scam. But thats not the point.

To many gun owners in this country will not go along with disarming. The ones who do already have. 
Laugh all you want but I feel I have a much better grasp on the thinking of my countrymen than you do.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think you have read enough of my post to know I feel as you do. I know the 2 party system is a scam. But thats not the point.
> 
> To many gun owners in this country will not go along with disarming. The ones who do already have.
> Laugh all you want but I feel I have a much better grasp on the thinking of my countrymen than you do.



You aver I have no say as an insinuation that I'm talking about something I may not talk about? - and yet ironically believe you do have a say in the U.S? 

That's confusing to me. 

You think America is a unique entity in politics than any other Western country or continent? - ha! the arrogance. 

A country founded and influenced by Englishmen and British folk - John Locke, Thomas Pain and many others; Jeremy Bentham and George Berkeley. 

Check those guys out.. 

I could go on with how your country was founded and who by and how and with what notions - notions on political philosophy, rights, freedoms, legislation.. of which the gun law was co-written and signed by agreement of Englishmen/British men. 

 

Sorry.. too much fun.. I'll stop now. 

The reason why American citizens can have guns is because it's fucked up - all countries have a certain degree of being fucked up...

The world looks to America though and gasps at the possibly naive responsibility your state puts into retards that roam your streets with no education... 

"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." 
— H.G. Wells


----------



## scat7s

> The world looks to America though and gasps at the possibly naive responsibility your state puts into retards that roam your streets with no education...


 
slow down henry, 

how about the middle east? africa? parts of asia? russia and her satellites? AK-47's galour....

private gun ownership is not an exclusive concept to the US.


----------



## Username2

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think you have read enough of my post to know I feel as you do. I know the 2 party system is a scam. But thats not the point.
> 
> To many gun owners in this country will not go along with disarming. The ones who do already have.
> Laugh all you want but I feel I have a much better grasp on the thinking of my countrymen than you do.



They will not get mine. And if they ever come for them we have bigger problems than what happened today. I don't think they will be able to find enough cowards to sign up for the job to go and get them either.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

"The nursery class killer: Mentally disabled teacher's son, 20, steals his mother's guns to shoot her dead before massacring TWENTY SIX - including 20 children - at her Connecticut primary school"

This headline suggests to me.. 

How could a mentally disabled young man get hold of guns? - 
Obviously from his mum! 

Who was inept enough to not avert this situation by keeping a tighter system of her son not being able to access to them. 

I actually blame the dumb fuck mum. Oh sorry, 'mom' lol! 

In fact! 

This has zilch to do with gun ownership on a mass broad scale of American citizens.


----------



## rmlevasseur

nuke said:


> The fuck you don't. the US media pukes just don't get a lot of milage out of those stories. What do you call this shit today.
> 
> *China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren*
> 
> China stabbing spree hurts 22 schoolchildren - World - CBC News
> 
> 
> I get so fucking sick of the dumbass blaming guns. I carry because of shit like this. Its our culture Grunch, we have a country that has become Godless.



And I get so fucking sick of people blaming it on being Godless. Just about every wackjob and soldier boy to hold a gun feels that God is on their side.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> slow down henry,
> 
> how about the middle east? africa? parts or asia? russia and her satellites? AK-47's galour....
> 
> private gun ownership is not an exclusive concept to the US.



Hmmm, why so many deaths each year from the use of guns then? 

US is an oddball in that respect - doesn't the US top the chart of gun related deaths each year in the world amongst citizens?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6] In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm.[7]_

Cringe worthy statistics - 12,632. Brutal. How many is that a day? -


----------



## Micky

I don't think so.
It is just that the US is better at keeping records.

What about Iraq? Afghanistan? Other 3rd world countries?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> And I get so fucking sick of people blaming it on being Godless. Just about every wackjob and soldier boy to hold a gun feels that God is on their side.



That's the madness that is within Bin Laden vs George Bush. 

Both believed God was on their side. 

Both delusional fucks.


----------



## scat7s

> And I get so fucking sick of people blaming it on being Godless. Just about every wackjob and soldier boy to hold a gun feels that God is on their side.


 
i think what he's implying is that "godlessness" has more to do with the decline of sound judgement in the west than simply owning or having access to guns.

in other words, a lack of moral compass....


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You aver I have no say as an insinuation that I'm talking about something I may not talk about? - and yet ironically believe you do have a say in the U.S?
> 
> That's confusing to me.
> 
> You think America is a unique entity in politics than any other Western country or continent? - ha! the arrogance.
> 
> A country founded and influenced by Englishmen and British folk - John Locke, Thomas Pain and many others; Jeremy Bentham and George Berkeley.
> 
> Check those guys out..
> 
> I could go on with how your country was founded and who by and how and with what notions - notions on political philosophy, rights, freedoms, legislation.. of which the gun law was co-written and signed by agreement of Englishmen/British men.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry.. too much fun.. I'll stop now.
> 
> The reason why American citizens can have guns is because it's fucked up - all countries have a certain degree of being fucked up...
> 
> The world looks to America though and gasps at the possibly naive responsibility your state puts into retards that roam your streets with no education...
> 
> "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe."
> — H.G. Wells



Dude, I dont know how you have drawn you conclusions on what I said. I didnt say you couldnt talk about it. I said you wont get a say (read vote) in it.
And I dont care how the world looks at America. And I did not say it is a "unique political entity".

Also, I have read about the men and their philosophy and all of that. 
One thing is clear, I would be a fool to talk about the mindset and politics of your country based on just what I have read. When did you live in America?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> an uprising?
> 
> That made me chuckle a bit.
> 
> Are you aware that you're owned like cattle? you don't have freedom of speech? - you're property is not yours and you're pretty much defenseless against the state?
> 
> Just like me and everyone else.. just lilliputians farting in the wind of life .. in a system that's not ours.
> 
> You think voting does anything? - you think that pantomime of politics is real? - you believe in the reality they give you? - the ego of your self that they teach and program into from school up...
> 
> 
> I don't have a say in anything, and neither do you.
> 
> You might have a say in changing the flag of your local town community hall...
> 
> But a say on gun laws?
> 
> Even the president doesn't have a look in..



If I were ever to use my first "like" on something, it would be this.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Micky said:


> I don't think so.
> It is just that the US is better at keeping records.
> 
> What about Iraq? Afghanistan? Other 3rd world countries?



Comparing the US - one of the most economically developed and modern Western civilizations, to the third world? living under Islam and other scummy facets of the human life in the bronze age? 
Something won't compute in that argument and comparison. 

Compare the US to England, Switzerland, Norway, France, Germany, Italy, Australia etc.


----------



## Micky

Grunch said:


> If I were ever to use my first "like" on something, it would be this.



Come on, just do it. You know you wanna...


----------



## Username2

rmlevasseur said:


> And I get so fucking sick of people blaming it on being Godless. Just about every wackjob and soldier boy to hold a gun feels that God is on their side.



God doesn't takes sides asshole, he sorts them out and judges them. You think the shooter today was full of Gods love and mercy, or Satan's desire to kill that what belongs to God.


----------



## Grunch

Politics and religion has been discussed. The mods will shoot you.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Dude, I dont know how you have drawn you conclusions on what I said. I didnt say you couldnt talk about it. I said you wont get a say (read vote) in it.
> And I dont care how the world looks at America. And I did not say it is a "unique political entity".
> 
> Also, I have read about the men and their philosophy and all of that.
> One thing is clear, I would be a fool to talk about the mindset and politics of your country based on just what I have read. When did you live in America?



Everyone lives in America. 

The rest of the Western world wreaks and wallows in your cultural imperialism. 

*Rammstein - Amerika *

_We're all living in America
America is wonderful
We're all living in America
America, America 

When there's dancing I want to lead
even if you're whirling around alone
Let yourselves be controlled a little
I'll show you how it really goes
We'll make a nice round dance
Freedom will play on all violins
Music will come out of the White House
and Mickey Mouse will stand in front of Paris

We're all living in America
America is wonderful
We're all living in America
America, America

I know moves that are very useful
and I will protect you from missteps
And whoever doesn't want to dance at the end
doesn't know yet that they must
We'll make a nice round dance
I will show you the way
Santa Claus will come to Africa
and Mickey Mouse will stand in front of Paris

We're all living in America
America is wonderful
We're all living in America
America, America

We're all living in America
Coca-Cola, Wonderbra
We're all living in America
America, America

This is not a love song
This is not a love song
I don't sing my mother tongue
No, This is not a love song

We're all living in America
America is wonderful
We're all living in America
America, America

We're all living in America
Coca-Cola, sometimes war
We're all living in America
America, America
_

For what it's worth with this whole messy discussion... 

I actually love America and I really appreciate it! I love its history, culture. etc. But you're preaching to the choir here..


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> _There were 52,447 deliberate and 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000.[4] The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6] In 2009, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 60% of all homicides in the United States were perpetrated using a firearm.[7]_
> 
> Cringe worthy statistics - 12,632. Brutal. How many is that a day? -


 
cringeworthy for sure. 

we went thru this after the batman shooting, the US sits about middle of the pack globally. 

russia's numbers were very high, and south america was also very high. 
interestingly, the middle east was unexpectedly low. maybe it has something to do with their moral compass...that they believe in something bigger than themselves...and that they may have to answer for their actions.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Politics and religion has been discussed. The mods will shoot you.



 

I actually love this post. I have feels for how witty it is. 

Oscar Wilde would commend it and so do I.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> If I were ever to use my first "like" on something, it would be this.



In a way, you have liked it as far as I'm concerned.  

Your first like. 

I remember my first like.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I actually love this post. I have feels for how witty it is.
> 
> Oscar Wilde would commend it and so do I.



Oscar Wilde liked guns......in his ass.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Oscar Wilde liked guns......in his ass.



:Ohno:

I love Oscar Wilde. A true gent and intellect, witty and admirable man in his work. Shame there's none like him in our generation. They're all fuckwits and dumbfucks. 

One of my favourites..

“I am not young enough to know everything.” 
― Oscar Wilde


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_I think the shooter's birth should have been averted with the use of abortion. After all, he was a retard._

 fuck. I'll stop now. Too much fun though. 

A lot of career criminals and senseless killers suffer from which this quote entails and notion through which it kindles its thought. 

“We live in a world where there is more and more information, and less and less meaning.” 
― Jean Baudrillard, Simulacra and Simulation


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> :Ohno:
> 
> I love Oscar Wilde. A true gent and intellect, witty and admirable man in his work. Shame there's none like him in our generation. They're all fuckwits and dumbfucks.
> 
> One of my favourites..
> 
> “I am not young enough to know everything.”
> ― Oscar Wilde


America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/o/oscarwilde125650.html 
​Now we're back to barbarism.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
> http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/o/oscarwilde125650.html
> ​Now we're back to barbarism.



 

He is one of many that uphold the realties and truths of a country that is still in its infancy compared to the rest of the ancient civilizations that predate it by centuries. 

To me, it's like a child I'm endeared to spectate upon and in a way I dote over its sugary treats, hollywood, technology and lifestyle it offers me as a sort of alienation of reality, freedom and truth. Which is something it ironically gyrates itself upon like a bipolar whore. 

All good vibes though - like George Carlin said, "when you're born, you're born into a freakshow and living in the US you get a front row seat" Paraphrasing, but nonetheless accurate.


----------



## rmlevasseur

scat7s said:


> i think what he's implying is that "godlessness" has more to do with the decline of sound judgement in the west than simply owning or having access to guns.
> 
> in other words, a lack of moral compass....



I think he IS implying that, which is exactly the problem. Everyone acts like the moral compass comes from God, but it appears every God has a different agenda. The only people i see regularly exercising sound judgment either keep their religious beliefs to themselves or are aetheists. Ground your moral compass in religion and you WILL be fucked up.

I'd say we have more of a lack of responsibility than morality. People know doping your kids with drugs, letting them play violent games all friggen day and letting kids have open access to guns is wrong. They know this. They are just too irresponsible to do anything about it. But to imply that religion should provide the moral compass is absurd.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> I think he IS implying that, which is exactly the problem. Everyone acts like the moral compass comes from God, but it appears every God has a different agenda. The only people i see regularly exercising sound judgment either keep their religious beliefs to themselves or are aetheists. Ground your moral compass in religion and you WILL be fucked up.
> 
> I'd say we have more of a lack of responsibility than morality. People know doping your kids with drugs, letting them play violent games all friggen day and letting kids have open access to guns is wrong. They know this. They are just too irresponsible to do anything about it. But to imply that religion should provide the moral compass is absurd.



That is basically this:

"Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." 
— H.G. Wells

“The pioneers and missionaries of religion have been the real cause of more trouble and war than all other classes of mankind.” 
― Edgar Allan Poe

"You educate a man; you educate a man. You educate a woman; you educate a generation." 
— Brigham Young

"Education consists mainly of what we have unlearned." 
— Mark Twain (Notebook)

"To educate a person in the mind but not in morals is to educate a menace to society." 
— Theodore Roosevelt

"The task of the modern educator is not to cut down jungles, but to irrigate deserts." 
— C.S. Lewis

"The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." 
— Thomas Jefferson

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further." 
— Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)


I have throes of passion and discussion about life I keep compiled in documents I love to read - the opinions and thoughts of the greats.. all working as one to create a sense of perspective and reality that's born from British Empiricism, the greatest philosophy of all! 

I think someone also said that the best costume is a cloak of perspective.


----------



## wolfgang

I believe in gun ownership for those who are sane and law abiding. I also have no problem with some sort of gun control. I believe for instance in a waiting period. Also, background checks are a must and need to be a little more thorough. What I can not stand are those who carry guns and flaunt it. There are so many idiots on youtube that video themselves carrying a gun and flaunt it in front of cops because they think they are making some sort of point. All they are doing is making themselves look like fools and making it harder for those who are responsible. But as for the government getting my guns? no way. Its in my constitution to own guns not just for self defense, but to also stand up to a tyrannical government. And if you live in america and you think thats foolish, then you think the constitution is also. In that case, get the fuck out of america and go live somewhere else. If it was'nt for the constitution, we wouldnt be able to sit here and bitch about it. And for those who live on here, you would be te first ones bitching.


----------



## Marshall Mann

rmlevasseur said:


> I think he IS implying that, which is exactly the problem. Everyone acts like the moral compass comes from God, but it appears every God has a different agenda. The only people i see regularly exercising sound judgment either keep their religious beliefs to themselves or are aetheists. Ground your moral compass in religion and you WILL be fucked up.
> 
> I'd say we have more of a lack of responsibility than morality. People know doping your kids with drugs, letting them play violent games all friggen day and letting kids have open access to guns is wrong. They know this. They are just too irresponsible to do anything about it. But to imply that religion should provide the moral compass is absurd.



God does not supply a moral compass, it comes from within and is specific to the individual. One either has a moral compass knows how to use it, or doesn't. "God" is secondary. 

Today's events had little to do with gun ownership and much to do with bad choices. 

It's way to early to speculate on what happened today. They are still gathering evidence. We should all be praying for / wishing the families well instead of arm chair quarterbacking the events strictly from what we have seen presented by the media.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

wolfgang said:


> I believe in gun ownership for those who are sane and law abiding. I also have no problem with some sort of gun control. I believe for instance in a waiting period. Also, background checks are a must and need to be a little more thorough. What I can not stand are those who carry guns and flaunt it. There are so many idiots on youtube that video themselves carrying a gun and flaunt it in front of cops because they think they are making some sort of point. All they are doing is making themselves look like fools and making it harder for those who are responsible. But as for the government getting my guns? no way. Its in my constitution to own guns not just for self defense, but to also stand up to a tyrannical government. And if you live in america and you think thats foolish, then you think the constitution is also. In that case, get the fuck out of america and go live somewhere else. If it was'nt for the constitution, we wouldnt be able to sit here and bitch about it. And for those who live on here, you would be te first ones bitching.



+ 1 

All true in my opinion.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Marshall Mann said:


> Today's events had little to do with gun ownership and much to do with bad choices.



That's exactly what I thought.

*Post #193*


----------



## scat7s

rmlevasseur said:


> I think he IS implying that, which is exactly the problem. Everyone acts like the moral compass comes from God, but it appears every God has a different agenda. The only people i see regularly exercising sound judgment either keep their religious beliefs to themselves or are aetheists. Ground your moral compass in religion and you WILL be fucked up.
> 
> I'd say we have more of a lack of responsibility than morality. People know doping your kids with drugs, letting them play violent games all friggen day and letting kids have open access to guns is wrong. They know this. They are just too irresponsible to do anything about it. But to imply that religion should provide the moral compass is absurd.


 
i cant argue with your responsibility commentary, i agree, that kind of apathy is dangerous, and is probably more to blame for the decline of sound judgement than other factors. 

and of course, religious extremism, of any kind has the potential to be dangerous as well. however, "do unto others..." and similar ideals are a good foundation to build sound judgement on in my opinion. 

but when the guiding principals in ones life are learned from television, movies, music, and to some extent the behavior of your own govt in world affairs, well....its a long road down.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

"The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." 
— Alexis de Tocqueville

Just a side note.


----------



## Micky

There are 2 things my students will come away with:

Respect, and trust. 

I don't care if they learn a damn thing about computers, networks or software, but they WILL learn to respect themselves, others, their school, family and most importantly, life itself. They gain respect, but trust must be earned.

I trust my students, and I trust they will be valuable to society after they leave.

These are two things that should be taught at home, but sadly, in many cases is not. These kids that lack respect, especially for themselves, are the ones that worry me.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Micky said:


> There are 2 things my students will come away with:
> 
> Respect, and trust.
> 
> I don't care if they learn a damn thing about computers, networks or software, but they WILL learn to respect themselves, others, their school, family and most importantly, life itself. They gain respect, but trust must be earned.
> 
> I trust my students, and I trust they will be valuable to society after they leave.
> 
> These are two things that should be taught at home, but sadly, in many cases is not. These kids that lack respect, especially for themselves, are the ones that worry me.



Teaching is not a lost art, but the regard for it is a lost tradition.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Micky said:


> There are 2 things my students will come away with:
> 
> Respect, and trust.
> 
> I don't care if they learn a damn thing about computers, networks or software, but they WILL learn to respect themselves, others, their school, family and most importantly, life itself. They gain respect, but trust must be earned.
> 
> I trust my students, and I trust they will be valuable to society after they leave.
> 
> These are two things that should be taught at home, but sadly, in many cases is not. These kids that lack respect, especially for themselves, are the ones that worry me.


----------



## SonVolt

Micky said:


> There are 2 things my students will come away with:
> 
> Respect, and trust.
> 
> I don't care if they learn a damn thing about computers, networks or software, but they WILL learn to respect themselves, others, their school, family and most importantly, life itself. They gain respect, but trust must be earned.
> 
> I trust my students, and I trust they will be valuable to society after they leave.
> 
> These are two things that should be taught at home, but sadly, in many cases is not. These kids that lack respect, especially for themselves, are the ones that worry me.






Oh captain my captain!


----------



## scat7s

approx 12 hrs into this latest tragedy and here come the dogs...

NYC Mayor Bloomberg slams Obama on guns:

kinda makes you wonder about things...


----------



## SonVolt

Bloomberg is a fucking charlatan.


----------



## V-man

scat7s said:


> approx 12 hrs into this latest tragedy and here come the dogs...
> 
> NYC Mayor Bloomberg slams Obama on guns:
> 
> kinda makes you wonder about things...



Question: When did the Mayor of NYC become the fucking Mayor of Newton, CT? 

Another question: Why in the fuck is this a story with any coverage whatsoever? No coverage of Kane West's opinion on the matter? What about Bobcat Goldthwait?


Hint: he's not, just an attention whore intent on using the issue to grab the spotlight on him and his agenda, and it is being covered because the medial LOVES pumping this shit up and ramming it down our throats.


----------



## matt3310

God bless everyone whos affected by this tragedy.

As most folks know I'm very Pro gun. I carry one everyday. And its saved me twice. There is nothing wrong with carrying a weapon as long as you use it responsible and know how to handle it.


----------



## gdh1532

V-man said:


> Question: When did the Mayor of NYC become the fucking Mayor of Newton, CT?
> 
> Another question: Why in the fuck is this a story with any coverage whatsoever? No coverage of Kane West's opinion on the matter? What about Bobcat Goldthwait?
> 
> 
> Hint: he's not, just an attention whore intent on using the issue to grab the spotlight on him and his agenda, and it is being covered because the medial LOVES pumping this shit up and ramming it down our throats.



you got it, the media will run with this as long as they can, it's going to be a battle ground between political parties on gun control. 

The problem is we may never know what provoked this. We can all speculate and make sideline calls (like I'm doing now). 

Even after stricter gun control laws are enacted. If a crazy shit ass wants a gun to go kill people, he'll still be able to get one, just not as easy or as cheap. 

Seems like a feeling of despair, and futility is creeping into the psyche of a lot of people. Job loss, family crisis, a gov that is more about political separation, finger pointing, blame, acting like children and imbecilic comments.

With no end to this destructive discourse in sight. People are left feeling hopeless, angry, and frustrated about life in general. It will continue to happen even after the gun laws are enacted. 

It's a cowards way, to reap pain and destruction upon others, than to lend a hand, and offer help.


----------



## blackone

JayCM800 said:


> Wow, are you in your right mind suggesting that his posts are worth reading?
> 
> If you like him that much... just leave me out of it!



I don't even know what that means, but whatever kid, keep up the intelligent posts


----------



## gdh1532

Feeling Supersonic said:


> an uprising?
> 
> That made me chuckle a bit.
> 
> Are you aware that you're owned like cattle? you don't have freedom of speech? - you're property is not yours and you're pretty much defenseless against the state?
> 
> Just like me and everyone else.. just lilliputians farting in the wind of life .. in a system that's not ours.
> 
> You think voting does anything? - you think that pantomime of politics is real? - you believe in the reality they give you? - the ego of your self that they teach and program into from school up...
> 
> 
> I don't have a say in anything, and neither do you.
> 
> You might have a say in changing the flag of your local town community hall...
> 
> But a say on gun laws?
> 
> Even the president doesn't have a look in..



Every thing is true except the last line, This president has somehow managed to side step proper legislative protocol, to accomplish some things he felt needed to be done. Stirred up things a bit but he got by with them.

This shooting is exactly what gun control lobbyist were waiting for. Directly after a random shootings in a mall and theater, this one is over the top. Little kids. As of today some non gun-control people , are now jumping the fence over to the gun-control side. 

I don't care either way. I don't believe there is any easy fix to curing the world of these horrid events.


----------



## rmlevasseur

gdh1532 said:


> Every thing is true except the last line, This president has somehow managed to side step proper legislative protocol, to accomplish some things he felt needed to be done. Stirred up things a bit but he got by with them.
> 
> This shooting is exactly what gun control lobbyist were waiting for. Directly after a random shootings in a mall and theater, this one is over the top. Little kids. As of today some non gun-control people , are now jumping the fence over to the gun-control side.
> 
> I don't care either way. I don't believe there is any easy fix to curing the world of these horrid events.



BULLSHIT. Take care of your friggen kids. Show them love and respect. Raise them yourself and dont depend on nannies, daycare, video games and quack psychological diagnoses. 99% of these problems solved. It's only about 1% where true mental health disorders will never be fixed. 

I had a talk with my kids today about the importance of identifying other troubled kids. I have to think that if just one person had been decent to this kid today, maybe he doesn't shoot his mother in the face. Unfortunately, too many people wanna tweak the people with obvious issues. You see it on this forum every 15 minutes. Imagine what it's like in the schools for these kids where they can't just close the thread.


----------



## gdh1532

rmlevasseur said:


> BULLSHIT. Take care of your friggen kids. Show them love and respect. Raise them yourself and dont depend on nannies, daycare, video games and quack psychological diagnoses. 99% of these problems solved. It's only about 1% where true mental health disorders will never be fixed.
> 
> I had a talk with my kids today about the importance of identifying other troubled kids. I have to think that if just one person had been decent to this kid today, maybe he doesn't shoot his mother in the face. Unfortunately, too many people wanna tweak the people with obvious issues. You see it on this forum every 15 minutes. Imagine what it's like in the schools for these kids where they can't just close the thread.


what? you say bullshit then go on to say exactly what part of the big issue is. Is this an easy fix? What part is Bullshit? Yes the reality of it is proper guidance and parenting helps kids develop better social skills. 

What about all the latch key kids that are out there? One mom, five kids, no dads, moms working a lot of ours, no parenting at all during those hours. We would love to blame the mom, of course she doing all she can to keep her bills paid and clothes and food in the house. There was a time in some societies where the community would pitch in and help. Those days are long gone. So there are more and more kids, being brought up on a ever increasing violent TV, games, and child hood bullying.

I was working with HUD and Section 8 housing for a few years. I had access into a lot of houses were there were 4,5 or more kids and no parent anywhere. I was told to not get involved because it only cause Section 8 maintenance lots of issues. I have seen 4 older sibling beating the hell out of a child about 3 yrs old. They were not being gentle about it either. I've seen a lot of the underbelly of society. This was just one home. I dealt with hundreds of them. Some similar some not. 

I appreciate parents that teach and work with their children to understand a better way of life. It just less and less of it is being taught any more. 

You also have the anomaly violent offenders, good home, good parents, good schools, sometimes even exceptional upbringing.... and they still become murderers and sociopaths. 

How does anyone fix this ?


----------



## blues_n_cues

it's pretty fucking simple-
people died 
if you or I were there w/ our weapon it may have been less
people died
we can bitch moan & cry about woulda,shoulda,coulda..
people died
innocent people died
innocent children died
the survivors aren't innocent to the world anymore..

my kindergartner came home safe & alive

I hugged her tighter & told her I loved her more.

tomorrow- there will be more parents like me barring the way to stupidity on our local school's doorstep & our homes...

God Bless America & the right of the people to defend ourselves-against all agressors-foreign & domestic or demented...


----------



## gdh1532

^ While I don't really care about the gun laws, I do believe every one has the right to defend themselves, and others they care about..including friends. I also believe that you should have the right to use whatever means necessary to do so. 

I have just finished putting a 3 month emergency preparedness system together in my home. Some of the things I put down as missing not yet fulfilled was, more ammo, and more arrows. Hoping the ammo would never have to be used for protection, but more for hunting food... but if it had to be used for protection it would be.


----------



## blues_n_cues

gdh1532 said:


> more arrows. QUOTE]
> 
> swift,silent,& deadly-up close & personal like...
> here Bambi.......


----------



## vintagevoltage351

RIP to the poor victims, very sad to hear.


----------



## blues_n_cues

gdh1532 said:


> ^ While I don't really care about the gun laws, I do believe every one has the right to defend themselves, and others they care about..including friends. I also believe that you should have the right to use whatever means necessary to do so.
> 
> I have just finished putting a 3 month emergency preparedness system together in my home. Some of the things I put down as missing not yet fulfilled was, more ammo, and more arrows. Hoping the ammo would never have to be used for protection, but more for hunting food... but if it had to be used for protection it would be.



how can you not care about gun laws when in your 2nd paragraph it's the 2nd amendment right(gun law) that gives you that very freedom to protect yourself & your own???

"the right to keep and bear arms against all aggressors both foreign & domestic".


----------



## 2203xman

Tragic.Tragic that people can steer so far from a meaningful life.What happens in someone's life that makes them so disturbed?Society is breeding more and more disstressed souls.I've felt out of place,depressed,and confused at times,and I was raised by two parents of the golden generation.I was given everything positive and encouraged as much as a child should be.Love was everywhere in our family.So,how does a person get to the point of complete tragic breakdown?The kind that shatters multiple lives,and seems to have no moral conscious?Guns;that really isn't where my thoughts are.If it wern't guns,it would have been bombs,or clubs,or bows and arrows.Peace for the familys.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

So near to Christmas too. 

Shame there's no hell for this horrible cretinous murderer to burn in for eternity.

EDIT: Just read some of my responses from last night, I'd been drinking - but that's no excuse to act like a dick around here. Sorry if you guys thought I was out of line.


----------



## gdh1532

blues_n_cues said:


> how can you not care about gun laws when in your 2nd paragraph it's the 2nd amendment right(gun law) that gives you that very freedom to protect yourself & your own???
> 
> "the right to keep and bear arms against all aggressors both foreign & domestic".


because I don't need a glock, or ak47, or tech9 to protect my home, and this site doesn't like to much political discussion, so what I probably meant to say was, I don't want to discuss it here.


----------



## Username2

Shooter was said to be Autistic


----------



## dreyn77

This is too big for anyone to comprehend. Wait for experts to tell us what happened, etc.. and get help if you need it!
some have asked 'us' why. seek other professional advice we can't understand, we are not given the education.
Maybe this is the source of the river.


----------



## rmlevasseur

gdh1532 said:


> what? you say bullshit then go on to say exactly what part of the big issue is. Is this an easy fix? What part is Bullshit? Yes the reality of it is proper guidance and parenting helps kids develop better social skills.
> 
> What about all the latch key kids that are out there? One mom, five kids, no dads, moms working a lot of ours, no parenting at all during those hours. We would love to blame the mom, of course she doing all she can to keep her bills paid and clothes and food in the house. There was a time in some societies where the community would pitch in and help. Those days are long gone. So there are more and more kids, being brought up on a ever increasing violent TV, games, and child hood bullying.
> 
> I was working with HUD and Section 8 housing for a few years. I had access into a lot of houses were there were 4,5 or more kids and no parent anywhere. I was told to not get involved because it only cause Section 8 maintenance lots of issues. I have seen 4 older sibling beating the hell out of a child about 3 yrs old. They were not being gentle about it either. I've seen a lot of the underbelly of society. This was just one home. I dealt with hundreds of them. Some similar some not.
> 
> I appreciate parents that teach and work with their children to understand a better way of life. It just less and less of it is being taught any more.
> 
> You also have the anomaly violent offenders, good home, good parents, good schools, sometimes even exceptional upbringing.... and they still become murderers and sociopaths.
> 
> How does anyone fix this ?



The bullshit comment referred to your comment there was no easy fix. If you can't raise kids responsibly, then dont have kids. FIXED.


----------



## dualampman

Grunch said:


> It's simple - guns in america.



a few weeks ago, a guy went on a rampage with a bow and arrow, Killed three people.

Over the past few years, China has had several school massacres, committed by knife wielding syco's.

Every day in every country, people are killed by drunk drivers.

So we need to ban guns, knives, bows and arrows, and cars, because they kill people...not the nut jobs?


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

dualampman said:


> a few weeks ago, a guy went on a rampage with a bow and arrow, Killed three people.
> 
> Over the past few years, China has had several school massacres, committed by knife wielding syco's.
> 
> Every day in every country, people are killed by drunk drivers.
> 
> So we need to ban guns, knives, bows and arrows, and cars, because they kill people...not the nut jobs?






Yes , this could have happened anywhere !!!!
this tragedy happened because of a mental illness , not so much cause of a gun control issues !

I this Shooting has really shaken my wife & I , cause we have a young son about the same age as some of the victims , this was a very bad day for many families in that community ..... our heart goes out to them ! RIP !


----------



## Greyly

Frankie said:


> No, they occur in states that have reasonable firearms laws too, they just occur in locations where it's still illegal to carry such as schools, universities, etc... Like I said earlier, if you're going to shoot up a place do you want to shoot up a place where you might get shot back at or a place where you're 99.999% certain nobody has a gun? Much like locks, gun control laws only keep honest people honest. If you're willing to take a mass murder wrap, an illegally concealed weapon is the least of your concerns.



I agree with your sentiment 100%, but I do not think an armed teacher(s) will stop one of these deviants from attempting these mass murders - they are suicidal as well as homicidal. They would just shoot the teacher first, then start gunning down the classmates until hopefully another teacher with a gun came along and hopefully shoots him in the head. The element of surprise dictates that the gunner, or gunners, will succeed at taking a lot of people out before help arrives. Short of a supermax prison style schoolhouse, I do not see a solution to this problem.

Wishful thinking on the anti-gun people that getting rid of guns will solve anything. If somehow, miraculously, all the guns in America were gone, not even the criminals could find one, these hellbent deviants would find or invent some other weapon or means of mass destruction.


----------



## Clammy

V-man said:


> Oh she does indeed. She hates guns, finds them icky and evil, loudly insults those who advocate, own and appreciate them (typically with the Redneck humor)... then (at least in the past) proceeds to retain armed "NASCAR-loving" bodyguards with access to better hardware than the highway patrol for her personal protection.



A VERY typical leftie "do as I say, not as I do" hypocritical pig.

Cheers!


----------



## Ydna

Gun control isn't even the issue. They were his Mother's firearms. Unfortunately, he had access.

Everyone has heard about the guy that tried to rob a store with a gun that sold a lot of firearms, right?

The guy got plugged to shit. Something like 80 spent shells were found on the scene.

So yea, having people strapped is a great way to prevent crime. But it does kind of support Grunch's point. Those guys were all itching to shoot some son of a bitch. Maybe just to use their firearm? Or maybe they wanted to be heros. Can't be sure. But we all know one or two shots would be enough to take down a man.

I'm all for firearms in the right hands. Living in California, it's next to impossible to get a CCW, but if I find myself living in a shall issue state, I'll definitely look into getting one.


----------



## anitoli

This whole issue is way too complicated for an immediate and illusionary band-aid fix. While gun control is always the knee-jerk reaction to these events it will not work and here are some solid reasons why:

1. Too many privately owned guns. The last FBI estimates were in the range of 500-750 million guns in the US. This DOES NOT include guns made before the 1968 GCA, when the Gov started to keep record of the serial numbers of guns being sold. So the real number is substantially higher.

2. As well as the 2nd amendment, in order to ban and or confiscate guns at the national level the 4th,5th and 14th amendments would need to be gutted or removed. This would ammount to a Government with absolute authority to do whatever it wants. NO Habeus Corpus, NO Right against self incrimination, Warrantless searches and seizures, ect. 
Read this book and tell me if this if the solution:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Laws-Gun-Control-Genocide/dp/0964230402"]Amazon.com: Lethal Laws: Gun Control Is the Key to Genocide (9780964230408): Jay Simkin, Alan M. Rice, Aaron S. Zelman: Books[/ame]


3. As long as there is a demand there will be a supply. A budding black market will spring up to meet the criminal demand for guns as long as the buyer will pay a markup you'll get the gun. Think Mexican drug cartel.

4. The facts prove other wise:
Read this book:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636"]More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics): John R. Lott Jr.: 9780226493633: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

According to FBI uniform crime stats as more states have allowed CCW permits the violent crime rates have dropped in those respective states while noting increases in property crime. Coincidence? I think not. States without CCW have higher violent crime rates. Think even Vs uneven playing field.

5. For every one shitbag that misuses a gun there are more than 150 million gun owners that DO NOT. The majority of gun owners are not violent criminals. To assume as much is infantile. A gun will not jump up off a table and shoot someone, it is an inanimate object. It is the person that makes the gun become a tool of evil or a tool of good, but the problem is the people.


----------



## V-man

gdh1532 said:


> because I don't need a glock, or ak47, or tech9 to protect my home, and this site doesn't like to much political discussion, so what I probably meant to say was, I don't want to discuss it here.



1. One never knows what he will need to protect himself and his home. He may only declare how far he is willing to go to defend himself and with what he is willing to use.

2. The weapon to use in a life or death scenario is usually the one that is more than you "need" to get the job done. There can be few things more terrible than counting the last few rounds off as they ring through the night hoping that "potentially adequate" platform was enough to get you out alive.




Ydna said:


> Gun control isn't even the issue. They were his Mother's firearms. Unfortunately, he had access.
> 
> Everyone has heard about the guy that tried to rob a store with a gun that sold a lot of firearms, right?
> 
> The guy got plugged to shit. Something like 80 spent shells were found on the scene.
> 
> So yea, having people strapped is a great way to prevent crime. But it does kind of support Grunch's point. Those guys were all itching to shoot some son of a bitch. Maybe just to use their firearm? Or maybe they wanted to be heros. Can't be sure.



This is actually more a point of training (or lack thereof). Ever since the 9mm auto replaced the .38 spl revolver in the officer's holster during the 1980s, more rounds have been fired by police and with less accuracy.

If you also see an incident where 5 or more responding officers elect to shoot a suspect, it becomes a contest to see who can bust open the Piñata. Part may come from the disorientation of the rounds being fired around each officer and the twitching of the suspect in impacts, or perhaps each has been briefed about the accuracy statistics of police shootings and are trying to compensate with volume.

The thing I find absurd about society is their distrust and "moronic redneck" assumptions of private gun owners and CCWers, while they trust with sheeplike devotion that wearing a blue uniform and a batman belt worth of crap somehow makes the person a competant shot.

When I go to tactical pistol or rifle classes, the cop(s) there are typically among the best performers there. Because they are cops? Hell no, because THOSE TWO cops are the gun guys on the force and the other 198 are not there.


----------



## diesect20022000

nuke said:


> Shooter was said to be Autistic


autism had nothing to do with it NUKE. He was also said to be borderline personality as OPPOSED to autistic.

i think the media will latch on to anything they can to use as fodder but the fact is this kid was nuts. it has nothing to do with autism or anything else other than his personal issues. Autism has zero to do with a persons capacity for violence and in fact WE are usualy the victims. I'm on the autism spectrum and i'd NEVER do something like that. EVER. it's disgusting. I think they're grasping at straws to find some reason for his atrocious behaviour is all i'm saying.


----------



## colchar

Frankie said:


> Let the teachers carry firearms already for fucks sake!




Armed teachers and/or armed guards are not necessarily the answer and to think so is ridiculously simplistic as it rushes to judgement and avoids the tougher questions about what the hell is wrong with American society and why your gun culture is so out of control that people think it is reasonable to own assault weapons.

That last guy who was involved at the shooting at the Empire State Building (the one who had killed a former co-worker) was killed by police but nine people were injured by gunfire in that incident _*and every one of those innocent bystanders were shot by the police, not the gunman*_. If that is what happens when actual properly trained cops are involved do you really expect some teacher or a minimum wage security guard to be more effective? Seriously?

I heard a statistic yesterday that when you combine the 23 wealthiest nations in the world, America alone accounts for 80% of their gun deaths. Doesn't that give the Americans here, regardless of which side of the gun debate they occupy, some serious cause for introspection about what that says about them and the state of their society?

The answer is far more complex than having more people with guns.


----------



## anitoli

colchar said:


> Armed teachers and/or armed guards are not necessarily the answer and to think so is ridiculously simplistic as it rushes to judgement and avoids the tougher questions about what the hell is wrong with American society and why your gun culture is so out of control that people think it is reasonable to own assault weapons.
> 
> That last guy who was involved at the shooting at the Empire State Building (the one who had killed a former co-worker) was killed by police but nine people were injured by gunfire in that incident _*and every one of those innocent bystanders were shot by the police, not the gunman*_. If that is what happens when actual properly trained cops are involved do you really expect some teacher or a minimum wage security guard to be more effective? Seriously?
> 
> I heard a statistic yesterday that when you combine the 23 wealthiest nations in the world, America alone accounts for 80% of their gun deaths. Doesn't that give the Americans here, regardless of which side of the gun debate they occupy, some serious cause for introspection about what that says about them and the state of their society?
> 
> The answer is far more complex than having more people with guns.


 
Common misconception is training equates to success under stress-fire.
This is simply not the case. Experience does. Vietnam is a great case study in death rates of experience Vs inexperience under duress. The highest death ratios were of incoming grunts. The death ratios drastically fell off after 6 months to end of first tour and beyond. Most street cops never fire their duty pistols on the job in their whole career. It absurd to expect no mistakes under these circumstances.

Another point is the person being attacked has a BETTER clue of what is going on than some guy that drives up and has to figure it all out in .05 of a second. Another setup for mistakes.


----------



## Marshall Mann

dualampman said:


> a few weeks ago, a guy went on a rampage with a bow and arrow, Killed three people.
> 
> Over the past few years, China has had several school massacres, committed by knife wielding syco's.
> 
> Every day in every country, people are killed by drunk drivers.
> 
> So we need to ban guns, knives, bows and arrows, and cars, because they kill people...not the nut jobs?



And to your point (and several others here) in both the school shooting and the mall shooting here in Oregon this week, both assistants used stolen weapons.


----------



## diesect20022000

this isn't because of guns imo. regardless of your stance on the guns this kid was a nutjob that was going to kill people.
he would have likely found another way without the guns or he'd have gone and killed others some other time with something else.
there's no guns in prison afterall. I'm not saying "go guns!" or "fuck guns" here.
i'm saying the issue is deeper and this kid was responsible not the guns. 
this kid was crazy. 
what CAUSED his violent rage?
what was the REASON? 
his choice in tools to perpetrate the crime is irrelevant in my mind.


----------



## anitoli

diesect20022000 said:


> this isn't because of guns imo. regardless of your stance on the guns this kid was a nutjob that was going to kill people.
> he would have likely found another way without the guns or he'd have gone and killed others some other time with something else.
> there's no guns in prison afterall. I'm not saying "go guns!" or "fuck guns" here.
> i'm saying the issue is deeper and this kid was responsible not the guns.
> this kid was crazy.
> what CAUSED his violent rage?
> what was the REASON?
> his choice in tools to perpetrate the crime is irrelevant in my mind.


 
That boy was the apex of *PURE EVIL! *
And evil always rears it ugly head.


----------



## V-man

colchar said:


> I heard a statistic yesterday that when you combine the 23 wealthiest nations in the world, America alone accounts for 80% of their gun deaths. Doesn't that give the Americans here, regardless of which side of the gun debate they occupy, some serious cause for introspection about what that says about them and the state of their society?



It says everything(else) and nothing. Such a haphazard statistic is easily plucked and waved by certain groups to show that between "similar" nations the US is the wild west and that's due to their guns.

Looking at it more closely and you see that most if not substantially all of them have a homogenized ethnicity, homogenized system of caste/class, have a homogenized belief system (whether religious, pseudo-religious, or secular), and have a more authoritarian style of government that our western democracy that is underpinned buy our Constitution and its Bill of Rights within.

Start to infuse disharmony within those variables (such as the ethnicity/caste challenges of young muslims in France a few years back) and see what happens about violence.



America with its freedoms is a pan of frosted sheetcake. Greedy exploitationist hands have clumsily scrambled for their fistful and the result was upturning the pan to the dirty floor Righting that cake within the pan we are faced with the following prospects: stripping all the icing we know as liberty off the cake and eating the dull bland fare beneath; accepting that filth infliltrated the icing and eating the cake as is, taking the good with the bad; or avoiding a second mob from tearing the remains to pieces, entrusting a few to carefully remove the debris while preserving the icing.

The problem with the last is that the idiots keep entrusting those with the dirtiest fingers and most gluttonous stomachs to handle the sorting.


----------



## anitoli

V-man said:


> It says everything(else) and nothing. Such a haphazard statistic is easily plucked and waved by certain groups to show that between "similar" nations the US is the wild west and that's due to their guns.
> 
> Looking at it more closely and you see that most if not substantially all of them have a homogenized ethnicity, homogenized system of caste/class, have a homogenized belief system (whether religious, pseudo-religious, or secular), and have a more authoritarian style of government that our western democracy that is underpinned buy our Constitution and its Bill of Rights within.
> 
> Start to infuse disharmony within those variables (such as the ethnicity/caste challenges of young muslims in France a few years back) and see what happens about violence.


 
Actually US violent crimes rates have been steadily declining over the last 30 years and are presently at all time lows. The US is one of the SAFEST nations to live in even though we have these occasional freak shows.
NO government can guarantee absolute safety under any idealogical playbook. The right to self-defense is a God given right that supercedes any governmental decision. Even the preamble to the Declaration of Independence states " .. the inalienable right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.", with LIFE being the key word. 

Freedom, American style is a really difficult notion for some to grasp.
It revolves heavily around respect, NOT narccisstic greed and envy.
The do unto to others as they would do to you idea........


----------



## Adwex

What about the mother's responsibility to prevent her apparently "troubled" son from gaining access to the guns?...another aspect of "gun control" that's not addressed by the 2nd ammendment, or any other legal discussion. Unfortunately, she was the first one killed.


----------



## scat7s

ok, the young man was 'troubled' and according to nuke, also autistic. 

was he medicated? 

and if so, maybe that discussion should be included if not preclude a gun control debate.


----------



## colchar

anitoli said:


> Common misconception is training equates to success under stress-fire.
> This is simply not the case. Experience does. Vietnam is a great case study in death rates of experience Vs inexperience under duress. The highest death ratios were of incoming grunts. The death ratios drastically fell off after 6 months to end of first tour and beyond.




That is not a valid comparison as many of those killed in Nam or other conflicts would have died without ever having a chance to fire their weapon so that cannot be used as a comparison.




> Most street cops never fire their duty pistols on the job in their whole career. It absurd to expect no mistakes under these circumstances.



I never said I didn't expect mistakes, only that trained police officers can make mistakes and that, based on that, it is ridiculous to assume that teachers or armed guards with lesser training would do any better.


----------



## anitoli

Adwex said:


> What about the mother's responsibility to prevent her apparently "troubled" son from gaining access to the guns?...another aspect of "gun control" that's not addressed by the 2nd ammendment, or any other legal discussion. Unfortunately, she was the first one killed.


 
She is fully accountable in that respect, especially if she had any awareness that the boy could be a danger to himself and others.
He also tried to buy a gun at a Dick's sporting goods a day before but they refused to sell. Think they should have informed the cops about him. Im am suspecting he wasnt cool with the 14 day waiting period.
More ignored red flags.


----------



## colchar

V-man said:


> It says everything(else) and nothing. Such a haphazard statistic is easily plucked and waved by certain groups to show that between "similar" nations the US is the wild west and that's due to their guns.



Nobody said that it was due to guns. It speaks to guns but it also speaks to a lot more about American society and why it is so fvcked up compared to other countries.




> Looking at it more closely and you see that most if not substantially all of them have a homogenized ethnicity, homogenized system of caste/class, have a homogenized belief system (whether religious, pseudo-religious, or secular), and have a more authoritarian style of government that our western democracy that is underpinned buy our Constitution and its Bill of Rights within.




What an absolute load of bollocks. Canada is as ethnically diverse as the US and we do not begin to approach your level of gun crime. We also do not have an authoritarian government. Britain has as ethnically diverse a society as America (according to census data released this week London is now only 44.9% white British) and does not have an authoritarian government. Same goes for places like Australia, New Zealand, Germany, etc.




> Start to infuse disharmony within those variables (such as the ethnicity/caste challenges of young muslims in France a few years back) and see what happens about violence.



As I said above, this is bollocks. Ethnic diversity does not lead to gun violence and countries which are as ethnically diverse as the US, if not more so, do not come anywhere near the level of gun violence that occurs in the US.





> America with its freedoms is a pan of frosted sheetcake. Greedy exploitationist hands have clumsily scrambled for their fistful and the result was upturning the pan to the dirty floor Righting that cake within the pan we are faced with the following prospects: stripping all the icing we know as liberty off the cake and eating the dull bland fare beneath; accepting that filth infliltrated the icing and eating the cake as is, taking the good with the bad; or avoiding a second mob from tearing the remains to pieces, entrusting a few to carefully remove the debris while preserving the icing.


----------



## SonVolt

anitoli said:


> Actually US violent crimes rates have been steadily declining over the last 30 years and are presently at all time lows. The US is one of the SAFEST nations to live in even though we have these occasional freak shows.
> NO government can guarantee absolute safety under any idealogical playbook. The right to self-defense is a God given right that supercedes any governmental decision. Even the preamble to the Declaration of Independence states " .. the inalienable right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.", with LIFE being the key word.
> 
> Freedom, American style is a really difficult notion for some to grasp.
> It revolves heavily around respect, NOT narccisstic greed and envy.
> The do unto to others as they would do to you idea........




I have heard this sharp decline in crime is thought to be directly attributed to Row vs Wade and the legalization of abortion.


----------



## Söulcaster

This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.

Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here. 

Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....


----------



## anitoli

colchar said:


> That is not a valid comparison as many of those killed in Nam or other conflicts would have died without ever having a chance to fire their weapon so that cannot be used as a comparison.


 
Sure it can. How many of these perps have any military/recon/LE training at all? And yet those with the training overshoot, miss, ect. Look at Iraq. The death ratio to length of tour is amazing. Compared to Nam with its fast rotations, the longer tours/greater experience yeilded drastically lower death rates. All im saying is an ounce of experience is worth a year of training.






> I never said I didn't expect mistakes, only that trained police officers can make mistakes and that, based on that, it is ridiculous to assume that teachers or armed guards with lesser training would do any better.


 
Not if you do it like Isreal. You need to provied REAL WORLD counter terrorism training where the emphasis is on guerilla tactics. None of the kid shooters would stand a chance against an experienced Force Recon Sniper.
And i think thats where the lines blur- this isnt crime, it's terrorism. How willing are we to start protecting our children?


----------



## SonVolt

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....




Would you rather us all give our condolences, lock the thread and that be that? This _is_ called a forum afteral.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....



Welcome to humanity. It has ugly sides.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## LKrevival

VintageGuy said:


> dont wanna insult the usa members here,but what the f*ck is going on over there?every now and then a psycho kid bursts into a school and starts shooting people



People including kids are slaughtered all the time but nobody cares or at best it is a little news story because it is in some crap hell hole country like in Africa or the middle east.

But when it happens in America, Finland or Germany the press is all over it.

Rampages in schools are happening in China also.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....


 
Freedom of speech is not an abomination, the suppression of it is.
The act that killed these kids defys humanity, not the difference in opinion of how, what, where, why, it happened. These scenarios always bring out extremes in ideas. While i feel as horrible about this as anyone else, if you allow tragedy to paralyze you, you lose the ability to retain rational thinking. And at times like these thats NOT what is needed.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

I think I brought it up at a previous similar discussion.
Banning weapons (which have a necessity) does not solve this.
People will find other ways to get themselves to either firearms or other lethal weapons, some as common as a car.
It is possible to kill a lot of people using a Suzuki Swift.

2009 attack on the Dutch Royal Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Adwex

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....



I'm interested in discussing ways to prevent it from happening again.


----------



## 4STICKS

Man, I'm old enough to remember when we used to TAKE GUNS to school. Many of us hunted and they were always in cars and trucks in the parking lot. Many of them in gun racks on open display. No school shootings even though they were there. All one would have had to do is walk out to their truck. Different world now. So fuckin sad.


----------



## LKrevival

After a tragedy , people are not in focus, they are grieving and angry and that is the worst time to demand or enact laws because long term thought as to how effectual or what unforseen effects will happen with new laws is not considered.

As a example after 9/11 new laws were enacted, responses were set in place, which at the time out of anger and grief was supported but later in time people realized these new laws or actions taken did not help so much as it did hurt even more.

Hard not to be emotional and angry after something like this but rational logic has to be remembered.


----------



## anitoli

Adwex said:


> I'm interested in discussing ways to prevent it from happening again.


 
And i as well. Thats been a major part of why im still running with this thread. Get the things out of the way that obviously wont solve the problem and get into the dirt.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

anitoli said:


> Freedom of speech is not an abomination, the suppression of it is.
> The act that killed these kids defys humanity, not the difference in opinion of how, what, where, why, it happened. These scenarios always bring out extremes in ideas. While i feel as horrible about this as anyone else, if you allow tragedy to paralyze you, you lose the ability to retain rational thinking. And at times like these thats NOT what is needed.



Both you and Söulcaster have valid points.

However keeping a cool head by thinking first and not saying too much while mourning the dead are not contradictory to free speech.
Freedom of speech is only as good as the thinking behind it and sometimes one needs time to think instead of jumping head on into a discussion on gun control which is not even relevant to the sad events that happened.

Scat7s was onto something looking for the cause, not in objects (guns, or cars, slings, bow and arrow) but looking for the actual root cause.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## diesect20022000

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....


agreed. Wholey.


----------



## 4STICKS

Just to expand on my post about being old enough to remember taking guns to school.... there were the expected amount of fights at school, but no one ever went for his firepower. that's part of why it's so sad.

Not sure what that says... but FFS it says something about where we are now as opposed to then.


----------



## Ydna

Yea, that kid was gonna kind a way.

For instance, you can buy tons of chemicals online to make some really volatile shit.

Hell, a friend of mind bought shit to make firecrackers. One gram ones were scary, and He had enough to make two pounds of that shit. Shipped to his house directly. No questions asked. Just some resorcefulness on the Internet.

My town has actually had multiple pipe bomb scares over the past few years. Motion activated ones.


----------



## Söulcaster

SonVolt said:


> Would you rather us all give our condolences, lock the thread and that be that? This _is_ called a forum afteral.



True but topics like these go nowhere, everyone knows the first ammendment goes out the window when the second ammendment is being pondered and achieves nothing in the end. But, ok lets discuss it and get outraged and all that good stuff.

For example if you think the frequency of these tragedies has nothing to do with policy then you are severely deluded.

I also don't think people understand what gun control actually is, if it means only honest, law abiding, hard working citizens have access to guns, is that a bad thing? If it saves the life of 1 innocent child is it not worth it?

I don't see how digging the hole your in deeper is a way out....which means I also don't see the correlation between how being able to carry a gun or arming kindergarten teachers = freedom. To me it equates to living in fear.

I concede that if I lived in America I would more than likely carry a gun because of the fear of being confronted by armed criminals. I also know that we on this forum can't change anything but, I also know it is inevitable that the USA gun Laws will change over time. Mainly due to the make-up of society and how societies exist today compared to how they existed 200yrs ago. Severe degradation of values and respect for each other is due to the way we have structured society(multi-culturialism, over-population, corporate greed, incompetent government), which is a totally different issue and way to complicated to tackle here.

So in conclusion yep it's all well and good to be anti gun control but, one needs to concede there are issues that need to be addressed both regarding guns, and the bigger issue which is the way modern societies behave.

Rant over


----------



## LKrevival

Adwex said:


> I'm interested in discussing ways to prevent it from happening again.



Some would say new bans, new restrictions are in order. Some out of emotional denial would refuse to support teachers being armed or armed security measures be put in place at schools. Some don't think that a school should be a environment like that, including many teachers themselves.

However, short of a forced confiscation of weapons from citizens, which would turn America upside down because many would not comply and many would fight against it and many cops wouldn't comply to arresting people not complying the logical measure IS to arm school people.

It is happening, we can debate why, which will go nowhere, it IS happening and the only way to prevent it POSSIBLY is arming the unarmed against the armed. Should it be like that?, no but it is what it is until you can determine and do something about how someone could be so mentally ill and evil that they would do something like this.


----------



## Greyly

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.




Abomination? Defy humanity? 

Drama Queen much?


----------



## Söulcaster

Greyly said:


> Abomination? Defy humanity?
> 
> Drama Queen much?



Suxk my left one homeboy


----------



## 4STICKS

Greyly said:


> Abomination? Defy humanity?
> 
> Drama Queen much?




Hey dude!!! I don't always agree with him but he still deserves his say.


----------



## CaptainZero

They are constantly saying, on the news, that he obtained the guns legally. He did not. He stole them from his mother who bought them legally, and didn't secure them. He tried to purchase a rifle this week and was denied. The stuff I'm reading today, would make me believe those guns should have been locked up tight. Of course they should be anyway, but this kid was weird, and maybe a bit of a problem before this.


----------



## Söulcaster

CaptainZero said:


> They are constantly saying, on the news, that he obtained the guns legally. He did not. He stole them from his mother who bought them legally, and didn't secure them. He tried to purchase a rifle this week and was denied. The stuff I'm reading today, would make me believe those guns should have been locked up tight. Of course they should be anyway, but this kid was weird, and maybe a bit of a problem before this.



I've got 2 guns in my house atm, they are not mine but, they are safely locked away in a gun safe. To leave them unsecured is akin to pulling the trigger yourself if they were ever used illegally


----------



## V-man

LKrevival said:


> Some would say new bans, new restrictions are in order. Some out of emotional denial would refuse to support teachers being armed or armed security measures be put in place at schools. Some don't think that a school should be a environment like that, including many teachers themselves.
> 
> However, short of a forced confiscation of weapons from citizens, which would turn America upside down because many would not comply and many would fight against it and many cops wouldn't comply to arresting people not complying the logical measure IS to arm school people.
> 
> It is happening, we can debate why, which will go nowhere, it IS happening and the only way to prevent it POSSIBLY is arming the unarmed against the armed. Should it be like that?, no but it is what it is until you can determine and do something about how someone could be so mentally ill and evil that they would do something like this.




The sad truth is that nobody "really" gives a shit about this other than those directly affected by this tragedy. This is a callous thing to say, but history seems to illustrate this. Columbine has turned into a VH1 "Where are they now" puff piece. VT is reduced to a talking point or illustration. The aftermath of tragedies of these kinds are reduced to:

1. My god look what happened... that's such a tragedy

2. Let's get the gory details (particulary motive, age/race, music listened to, guns used)

3. Scapegoat time (look at murder's home life, interests, friends/family, guns used and start throwing out blame) based on the need to compartmentalize this and move on.

4. Now the talking heads clear their throats. Comfortable with the news-isolated talking points, hot-button issues, each selects stances in line with his/her political or network agenda and blah blah fucking blahs.

5. Vigils, fund raisers, with occasional lawsuits and pacifafistic legislation 

6. Close the chapter, rinse, repeat, reuse.





Can we universally agree that this is a horrific and senseless tragedy? I think so. Other than discussion (whether topical, or political debate) do we as a society EVER move beyond this? The best we do is look to some asshole we may/may not have elected to spit out some slapdash speech and myopic law to keep up the pretense he is doing something in office, and we call it quits.

Does anybody even know/remember the name of the piece of shit behind VT? Does anybody remember the problems he experienced, or made inquiries SINCE THEN as to what could be done to address the issue? The reality is that we have expectations of incompetant officials to manage that which cannot be managed by them and we want to wash our hands of it.

We stigmatize mental disorders and treatment, we offer no services or subsidization of such. We insulate ourselves from the worries of the world, watching all the problems in one box and bitching about it in another box, then forgetting about it alltogether.

The plain truth is that there will ALWAYS be sensless tragedies beyond our control, but the problem with multifaceted issues is that we want "somebody" to do "something", which amounts to somebody else to do everything. Individually, we may not be able to do much but without a clearly defined plan, we seem unwilling to do anything at all. Such is the way of this world... apathy.


----------



## Söulcaster

Apathy sucks, maybe we all have blood on our hands?


----------



## Micky

I work in a school of 650 students and 150 staff and teachers.

The constant stream of vendors, deliveries, parents and others is incredible. Hundreds within a single day. Yet we are a public school, in Vermont, and the main doors are unlocked. Anyone could come in.

I personally have suggested arming select staff and/or teachers, but I feel that may not be the 'whole' answer. A combination of that as well as building security measures 'may' thwart most threats, but a much broader, more complete answer is needed.

Getting rid of the guns is not the answer. These terrorists (yes, that is the correct word in this instance) will use whatever means necessary to inflict the pain and fear they feel will hurt innocent people most. If it isn't guns, it will be explosives. If not that then poison gas, or some other method of generating fear and death. These gun arguments are not productive at all. Connecticut has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA, but laws will only keep honest people honest.

Security, as well as trained officers in schools is the first best tool to prevent this from happening again.

What about the nutjob that packs a vehicle full of explosives and parks right next to the building? Boom, and possibly a couple hundred kids are gone. Or even worse yet, one who drives right thru the front door into the center of the school? Guns aren't the only threat, they are just the most prevalent one.

Soon schools will look like prisons, but at least they may be a bit more safe. Until those in charge realize that yes, this CAN happen here, things won't change much. Unfortunately, this is becoming the sad reality of our society, along with gang slayings, drug overdoses and all the other seedy, illegal activities that desperate people resort to.

Kind of makes you lose faith in humanity...


----------



## LKrevival

I don't think it is apathy people feel so much, it is feeling over whelmed knowing there are no real and easy answers to solving the problem. And the root of the problem is too many people with no morals or regard for others and maybe even feeling evil hatred toward others. How do you fix that? 

The way I see it the reality is for whatever reason more and more people are getting violent and not only want to die but want to inflict as much pain as they can to others in the process and if the reality is threats are real the two choices are either take your chances or even the odds more and be armed and ready also.

Being armed isn't going to guarantee success but at least you'll have a better chance when a sicko decides to prey on you, which these people generally look for the weak and vulnerable to do so.


----------



## 12barjunkie

We don't have a gun problem in America, we have a DRUG problem.

Every person who is on psychiatric drugs is not a mass murderer, BUT, every mass murderer (in recent history) has been on psychiatric drugs. Not some of them, not most of them, but every single one of them! (the media does their best to cover up this fact and the general public always overlooks it)

I seriously believe that a certain percentage of people that are having psychological issues have some sort of chemical imbalance or DNA irregularity that causes them to flip out when mixed with the drugs.

I think we need to shift our focus to research and testing the different types of drugs and their effects instead of gun control. I'm also sure it won't happen because all of these attacks are the anti gun people's "Golden Goose"


----------



## dreyn77

this might help ADWEX, look at what happened in melbourne australia a few days ago. outside government house. Lone security guard (gov not spending money, used to have 3 guards) with gun, man walks up to guard pulls out hammer and hits guard on the head, takes gun, walks round the corner into park shoots himself dead.
You can have all the guns and training but in reality 98% of people don't react.
We know all about earthquakes, tsunami etc... and we still cannot stop loss of life.
200+ dead refugees people comming to Australia by boat (including children) what happens? they keep comming and keep dieing.
the emperer of rome used to throw his little boy sex slaves off the cliff at his holiday house, cause he was tired of them. anything happen to him because of this? NO.
We have elected people to 'deal with this', but they have not forfilled this job. we can nolonger hold them to account. we are living in 'bizzaro world'. 'the court can dispense with rules', this is not acceptable! 
If we complain we are singled out and persicuted. 
They said on TV two days ago "people round the globe are nolonger accepting what the government does and says".
this guy is a micro version of what is happening globely in the world. 
people are disempowered and grab power when they have a chance. 
If your still alive after the bomb, pick yourself up and brush yourself down and carry on.


----------



## AdamR

Just a few notes. 

The douche wasnt Autistic. That was a comment his brother made. "He kinda Autistic" His brother hadnt seen him in almost 10 years and was probably pretty mad he got blamed for it.

Another not. The high school in the area almost always have a police officer on grounds. Why would anyone ever thing the Elementary school needed one too ?

Like I siad, Guns or not, This kid was gonna kill someone one way or another.


----------



## Micky

Hope everything with you and your family are OK Adam.
Being so close it really must hit home.
Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you there.


----------



## Ghostman

For those outside my country, and for some inside it, the unfortunate reality of our gun laws and how our founding fathers set up the system, technically it is not possible to change the rights of the citizens based upon changing political times and society beliefs. We can write and pass laws that would restrict or take away gun rights, but the system we live with, has a small thing called "checks and balances" that would immediately reverse the law due to it impeding the Constitutional rights of the citizens. Basically anything that is done to protect the citizens effectively restricts the rights of the citizens. Fucked up system, but you can't protect from "batshit crazy." The Amendment was put in place so that the citizens could take up arms against enemies, or protect themselves from a corrupt Government hell-bent on trampling the rights of the citizens. When the old farts were writing this out, I bet they didn't think that we'd take the "enemies" term as unlawful citizens. And good luck with pointing a gun at a Government official today.

What pissed me off was all the posts and comments about protecting our 2nd Amendment rights and this wouldn't have happened if the teachers were armed, as well as we need more God in our schools. These comments came less than a few hours of the tragedy being over. And they came way before we even knew anything about the shooter. 

What if he was religious and raised by a religious family or parent? Where's your excuse for more God in that? Too many questions were open and are still left open, before anyone can make sense of the whole mess. But that didn't stop the ass-hats from screaming about not taking our guns away, or shoving their, yes THEIR, religion down everyone's throat.

The truth of the matter is, taking away our guns won't do shit. Criminals will get their hands on illegal items no matter what you do. How's that war on drugs working out America? Putting more guns in the hands of the citizens won't do shit either. Too many people will find themselves with itchy trigger fingers just because they now carry a concealed weapon.

The religious argument is invalid too. Putting God into the schools to teach them right from wrong only creates a Perfect Shit-storm because out of 30 students in a class only about 2 of them will have the same denomination of Christianity to follow. How do you teach to that? Out of 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone, good luck trying to build a cirriculum around that! Now mix in the other 10,000 different religions just to add some spice. Oh, yeah, and one other minor detail. The addition of religion into the state, and federally funded, and ran school system is a massive violation of the Constitutionally protected Separation of Church and State.

What is the solution? No one knows. Period. It could have been so many things that it's unfathomable to guess what it was. If the kid was crazy, why didn't he get help, or his parents get him help? If your kid was acting strange, what would you do? Would you send him to therapy? Most likely not, because we as parents don't see that our kids are "that messed up" to actually be a threat to society and send them to a psychiatrist. And when we do decide to go that way, we second guess ourselves that this would send the wrong message to our child and send them further spiraling into the wrong direction. We didn't get a manual for these things so it's a crap shoot. 

All we can do in the mean time, is try to raise our kids the best way we know how, and hope or pray that the Chaos theory doesn't swing in our direction. When it does, we react and try to heal the best way we can.

rant over.


----------



## Greyly

I like this forum - I can say the word fuck. I like the word fuck. Some words just don't convey the emotion a person feels inside. Fuck is a great word. Try it; do it right now; rise from your chair and yell at the top of your lungs...


FUUUUUUUCK!!!!!!!

You will feel better. Unless you are hungover. If hungover you might just feel dizzy and want to sit down.


----------



## Micky

I say it too much already.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Damn, what if your native language isn't English.
You'd hate to see me write names of potentially deadly diseases in caps. 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Greyly

*Addressing the mentality of our youth today is virtually impossible in a multicultural society. There are no longer any standards. I'll just leave it at that, because talking openly about how I feel would get me banned.
*


----------



## scat7s

heres one. 

lock the fucking doors, and buzz people in. 

its not a cure all, but its simple, and will help to keep an eye test of who's in your building.


imagine a simple measure like that in this situation...


----------



## gdh1532

we had a minor discussion on this after the gig last night, the keyboardist dad was there, older retired military guy. He brought up a comment that made me think, I too don't think arming teachers is a good idea, unless you send them to extensive training (like many cia and nsa bodyguards get. Or better yet, retired military that have already had extensive training, are able to pass any and all psyche evaluations, and have been shown to be cool under fire. Also he brought up that there are some places that have extreme protection from automated devices that can shut down access to other areas ie doors that drop down and block access through those walk ways. This technology is available today, and the doors would be out of sight from kids , until they would be needed in case of emergency, they also work well in fire control .


----------



## lowinput

Time, distance and $$$'s. 
they get you every time, you can't win.


----------



## blues_n_cues

scat7s said:


> heres one.
> 
> lock the fucking doors, and buzz people in.
> 
> its not a cure all, but its simple, and will help to keep an eye test of who's in your building.
> 
> 
> imagine a simple measure like that in this situation...



in this particular case they had that but the shooter got in before the lockdown.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> This thread is an abomination...,,,some of the posts I've read here today defy humanity.
> 
> Maybe it's because I'm hungover as all fuxk but the self serving direction this thread has taken makes me wonder if some actually can comprehend what has happened here.
> 
> Tiny, innocent children, Kindergarten children ffs are no longer with us, their lives taken in the most tragic circumstances. All I see is peeps searching for excuses, spin and blame to suit whatever personal fear they are subscribed to. No wonder shit like this happens....



Wow, I'm speechless by this garbage. Truly.  

We're to blame guys...... saddle up, Soul is taking us all to court.


----------



## Söulcaster

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Wow, I'm speechless by this garbage. Truly.
> 
> We're to blame guys...... saddle up, Soul is taking us all to court.



Go read a book Super..,,,.Get back to me when you can form an original idea of your own.

/yawn


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> Go read a book Super..,,,.Get back to me when you can form an original idea of your own.
> 
> /yawn





Söulcaster said:


> *No wonder shit like this happens....*








It's probably one of the biggest fails ever on the Marshall Forum - especially in light that children have been killed. your ending notion is that members on this forum talking about it represents a verisimilitude of how people can became deranged child killers - that's exactly what you've deduced from this thread, that the members here represent a frame of mind and attitude that can lead to evil. 

Well played man.... we played..


----------



## 12barjunkie

Greyly said:


> *Addressing the mentality of our youth today is virtually impossible in a multicultural society. There are no longer any standards. I'll just leave it at that, because talking openly about how I feel would get me banned.
> *



Well.........FUCK!!!!


----------



## blackone

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It's probably one of the biggest fails ever on the Marshall Forum - especially in light that children have been killed. your ending notion is that members on this forum talking about it represents a verisimilitude of how people can became deranged child killers - that's exactly what you've deduced from this thread, that the members here represent a frame of mind and attitude that can lead to evil.
> 
> Well played man.... we played..



I don't think that's what he's actually saying, more that we as humans should have worked out how to stop shit like this years ago, or maybe that the human race as a whole has caused this by many many ways. The problem with the human race is that we are all too self serving, shouldn't we instead of wasting time on the internets be doing everything we can, individually, to better each other?


----------



## Micky

scat7s said:


> heres one.
> 
> lock the fucking doors, and buzz people in.
> 
> its not a cure all, but its simple, and will help to keep an eye test of who's in your building.
> 
> 
> imagine a simple measure like that in this situation...



He broke the window and got in when they didn't buzz him in...


----------



## Nudge68

I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.

*the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *

Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea. 

Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.

Blessings to you all.

cheers,

Matt.


----------



## Adwex

Ghostman said:


> For those outside my country, and for some inside it, the unfortunate reality of our gun laws and how our founding fathers set up the system, technically it is not possible to change the rights of the citizens based upon changing political times and society beliefs. We can write and pass laws that would restrict or take away gun rights, but the system we live with, has a small thing called "checks and balances" that would immediately reverse the law due to it impeding the Constitutional rights of the citizens. Basically anything that is done to protect the citizens effectively restricts the rights of the citizens. Fucked up system, but you can't protect from "batshit crazy." The Amendment was put in place so that the citizens could take up arms against enemies, or protect themselves from a corrupt Government hell-bent on trampling the rights of the citizens. When the old farts were writing this out, I bet they didn't think that we'd take the "enemies" term as unlawful citizens. And good luck with pointing a gun at a Government official today.
> 
> What pissed me off was all the posts and comments about protecting our 2nd Amendment rights and this wouldn't have happened if the teachers were armed, as well as we need more God in our schools. These comments came less than a few hours of the tragedy being over. And they came way before we even knew anything about the shooter.
> 
> What if he was religious and raised by a religious family or parent? Where's your excuse for more God in that? Too many questions were open and are still left open, before anyone can make sense of the whole mess. But that didn't stop the ass-hats from screaming about not taking our guns away, or shoving their, yes THEIR, religion down everyone's throat.
> 
> The truth of the matter is, taking away our guns won't do shit. Criminals will get their hands on illegal items no matter what you do. How's that war on drugs working out America? Putting more guns in the hands of the citizens won't do shit either. Too many people will find themselves with itchy trigger fingers just because they now carry a concealed weapon.
> 
> The religious argument is invalid too. Putting God into the schools to teach them right from wrong only creates a Perfect Shit-storm because out of 30 students in a class only about 2 of them will have the same denomination of Christianity to follow. How do you teach to that? Out of 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone, good luck trying to build a cirriculum around that! Now mix in the other 10,000 different religions just to add some spice. Oh, yeah, and one other minor detail. The addition of religion into the state, and federally funded, and ran school system is a massive violation of the Constitutionally protected Separation of Church and State.
> 
> What is the solution? No one knows. Period. It could have been so many things that it's unfathomable to guess what it was. If the kid was crazy, why didn't he get help, or his parents get him help? If your kid was acting strange, what would you do? Would you send him to therapy? Most likely not, because we as parents don't see that our kids are "that messed up" to actually be a threat to society and send them to a psychiatrist. And when we do decide to go that way, we second guess ourselves that this would send the wrong message to our child and send them further spiraling into the wrong direction. We didn't get a manual for these things so it's a crap shoot.
> 
> All we can do in the mean time, is try to raise our kids the best way we know how, and hope or pray that the Chaos theory doesn't swing in our direction. When it does, we react and try to heal the best way we can.
> 
> rant over.



Righteous rant, I agree with everything you said.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> I don't think that's what he's actually saying, more that we as humans should have worked out how to stop shit like this years ago, or maybe that the human race as a whole has caused this by many many ways. The problem with the human race is that we are all too self serving, shouldn't we instead of wasting time on the internets be doing everything we can, individually, to better each other?



With all respect, what you have done is spin his comment entirely. 

He was referring, in a very distinguishing fashion, to the Marshall Forum's members that have made their views known in this thread. 

Then, he has jumped to conclusions about the very inner workings of our psychological dispositions and attitudes upon this subject, and some how accounted these attitudes of ours and put forward the idea that it's no wonder there is a 20 year old with mental problems in our/your society killing children - he's connected the actions of this evil man's ways, to the views and attitudes of individuals that have posted in this thread. 

I find it repugnant, offensive, stupid, wrong, untruthful, crass, presumptuous, arrogant and above all, disingenuous. 

If you read the original post in which he stipulates this, you'll find it's black and white.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Nudge68 said:


> I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.
> 
> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



Just like most pro-gun Americans would not like to see guns in the hands of insane individuals it is also undesirable to see nuclear weapons in the hands of insane governments.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Adwex

Nudge68 said:


> I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.
> 
> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



The thread will not be deleted unless it turns into a fight. A debate and/or discussion is welcome, a fight isn't.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Nudge68 said:


> I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.
> 
> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



Very good questions. 

Although, it's so massively broad that discussion, it's almost too big to comprehend. You have to account for everything from economic models to religion and culture. 

I myself, can only believe based on statistics - that the gun laws in the US are too lapse and over 12,000 people are murdered each year in homicides with arms. This story is accountable for 27 deaths I believe. 

The total figure for all deaths accountable for by guns is such a cringeworthy statistic, I really believe allowing all citizens the right to bare arms is a really crazy and irresponsible act of government. 

I'll just say that traditions are to blame - and also in this particular occurrence, the parent of this 20 year old is to blame. 

Why did she teach her mentally unstable son to fire weapons?

Why did she not have counter measures, in order to prevent him from gaining access to two pistols and a machine gun?


----------



## blues_n_cues

while people are discussing guns & the U.S. y'all do know that in Israel EVERYONE is armed & teachers carry assault rifles in school right?

they don't seem to have this problem.


----------



## SonVolt

blues_n_cues said:


> while people are discussing guns & the U.S. y'all do know that in Israel EVERYONE is armed & teachers carry assault rifles in school right?
> 
> they don't seem to have this problem.



Those are God's chosen people. Of course they're packin'


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Nudge68 said:


> I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.
> 
> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



I'd be very much in favor of Iranian citizens having the right to bear arms ... in fact, if they were armed to the degree w/which folks are armed in the United States, the Iranian 'revolution', which has been suppressed for a very long time, would finally have a chance to flourish. Remember when Obama took office and there was news of the Iranian freedom movement that was rising? Well, that lasted about a week, as the government basically fired bullets into the crowds until people realized they had no choice but to follow the orders of the Iranian authorities. So, yes, an armed Iranian public, to me, is the first step toward a freedom loving Iranian public ... in fact, I'll take it a step further in suggesting that I think it has to be a part of the plan w/respect to our overall policy toward Iran (meaning, i think we should be arming their citizens). 

As for nuclear weapons (which is going off topic) ... well, seeing as how citizens can't have nuclear weapons in their personal possession, I'm not sure that it's applicable to this debate. If we can't have nuclear weapons in our households, well, the same would apply to Iran if they were following our constitution.


----------



## AdamR

Micky said:


> Hope everything with you and your family are OK Adam.
> Being so close it really must hit home.
> Our thoughts and prayers are with all of you there.



Thanks, Were all good. My kids dont really know what happened. My Daughter thinks the school was robbed. My son said "Dad, it was really hard to sit quietly that long" 

Im working on putting a fundraiser together at a local venue to help out. So far so good.


----------



## scat7s

> 'Adam Lanza, the father of Connecticut school shooter, Peter Lanza, was the tax director for General Electric, a corporation that paid no taxes on 14.2 billion dollars in profits last year. According to Fabian4Liberty, Peter Lanza was scheduled to testify in the ongoing global LIBOR scandal. In what could only be described an amazing coincidence, Robert Holmes, the father of Colorado Batman shooter James Holmes, was also a LIBOR witness in his position with FICO.'


.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> .



WTF scat! I love your info. 

Totally mind boggling.


----------



## Adwex

Scat, it looks like the first names are reversed in that quote. Adam was the shooter not the father.


----------



## 4STICKS

Ghostman said:


> For those outside my country, and for some inside it, the unfortunate reality of our gun laws and how our founding fathers set up the system, technically it is not possible to change the rights of the citizens based upon changing political times and society beliefs. We can write and pass laws that would restrict or take away gun rights, but the system we live with, has a small thing called "checks and balances" that would immediately reverse the law due to it impeding the Constitutional rights of the citizens. Basically anything that is done to protect the citizens effectively restricts the rights of the citizens. Fucked up system, but you can't protect from "batshit crazy." The Amendment was put in place so that the citizens could take up arms against enemies, or protect themselves from a corrupt Government hell-bent on trampling the rights of the citizens. When the old farts were writing this out, I bet they didn't think that we'd take the "enemies" term as unlawful citizens. And good luck with pointing a gun at a Government official today.
> 
> What pissed me off was all the posts and comments about protecting our 2nd Amendment rights and this wouldn't have happened if the teachers were armed, as well as we need more God in our schools. These comments came less than a few hours of the tragedy being over. And they came way before we even knew anything about the shooter.
> 
> What if he was religious and raised by a religious family or parent? Where's your excuse for more God in that? Too many questions were open and are still left open, before anyone can make sense of the whole mess. But that didn't stop the ass-hats from screaming about not taking our guns away, or shoving their, yes THEIR, religion down everyone's throat.
> 
> The truth of the matter is, taking away our guns won't do shit. Criminals will get their hands on illegal items no matter what you do. How's that war on drugs working out America? Putting more guns in the hands of the citizens won't do shit either. Too many people will find themselves with itchy trigger fingers just because they now carry a concealed weapon.
> 
> The religious argument is invalid too. Putting God into the schools to teach them right from wrong only creates a Perfect Shit-storm because out of 30 students in a class only about 2 of them will have the same denomination of Christianity to follow. How do you teach to that? Out of 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone, good luck trying to build a cirriculum around that! Now mix in the other 10,000 different religions just to add some spice. Oh, yeah, and one other minor detail. The addition of religion into the state, and federally funded, and ran school system is a massive violation of the Constitutionally protected Separation of Church and State.
> 
> What is the solution? No one knows. Period. It could have been so many things that it's unfathomable to guess what it was. If the kid was crazy, why didn't he get help, or his parents get him help? If your kid was acting strange, what would you do? Would you send him to therapy? Most likely not, because we as parents don't see that our kids are "that messed up" to actually be a threat to society and send them to a psychiatrist. And when we do decide to go that way, we second guess ourselves that this would send the wrong message to our child and send them further spiraling into the wrong direction. We didn't get a manual for these things so it's a crap shoot.
> 
> All we can do in the mean time, is try to raise our kids the best way we know how, and hope or pray that the Chaos theory doesn't swing in our direction. When it does, we react and try to heal the best way we can.
> 
> rant over.



I agree with lots of that and disagree with a little as well. But, I just wanted to say......Well said and thought out!!!! Cudos!


----------



## V-man

Nudge68 said:


> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



There are two issues here. One is to propose that Iranian CITIZENS be entitled to the same human rights enjoyed by Americans. To wit, if Iranians THEMSELVES are entitled to bear arms to ensure the people have means to "check" a tyrant in power from further harming them and their liberties.

Here, the founding fathers would maintain the Iranian PEOPLE have that right which is universal and Devine, and instrumental to the pursuit of life, liberty and property. The right of the people to be protected from a corrupt tyrant is universal.


In the case of anthropomorphizing the State of Iran itself into a subject of antropomorphized United States, we must first point out that the premise is absurd. Nations are not people or personalities. They have no rights themselves. They are (in theory) a system in place by people to serve the people, which can be altered and removed by people (enter the US Civil war succession debate can of worms which we will not go further down the rabbit hole pursuing). Even still Iran as this "person" is not a subject of this country or its laws. 

The distinction of these fundamental Rights is that our western philosophies apply to the empowerment of the INDIVIDUAL, not the power of the state. The power of the state falls within the Enumerated powers in the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights (where the second Amendment is) stand there as the first LIMITS on government for the protection of the people. Thus, you are talking about apples and oranges.

Even in the fantasy scenario where one stretches and distorts beyond recognition a case where the people of X are exploited by the government of Y so it is the divine right of X to have weapons to check the tyranny of those occupiers, there is no such case where nuclear arms would do a job where conventional arms cannot. In order to rule, one must occupy as did the British on colonial soil. Nuclear arms were not/are not/will not be necessary to repel a foreign invader from one's own soil.


----------



## Jack92CH

The kid was sick, there's no questioning that. The competency of psychiatric evaluation and care is an issue that needs to be addressed before many others, I think. 

This is a case of people looking for an answer but asking all the wrong questions. There are too many variables involved to pin-point ONE preventable problem that led to this. Steps can be taken to help stop this from happening again, sure, but this won't be the last time you hear about this kind of shit. Can't stop crazy people from being crazy.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Hunting/sport - the police force. 

What I find odd, is that your amendment or country gives no real reasons as to why it's morally right [that's somehow is a representation of 'freedom'] that anyone and everyone can own a gun. 

I think there's a real lack of responsibility somewhere. It's bygone era of gun ownership in a very modern society nowadays. 

What's the reason and meaning of owning guns out in America anyway? 

If you don't shoot for sport or hunting - 

Is it just because there's a heap of paranoia along the lines of, "well, my neighbor has guns so I should too, just in case" 

Do you all feel so threatened you need a gun in case you need to protect yourself? 

I get a sense there's a mass culture of that kind of frame of mind.

"protection" - It's just a bit of a weak excuse in my opinion, scared people that own guns... then one day something kicks off in their life, depression, alcoholism, drugs, a violent divorce, a dispute with a neighbor, a family feud etc. and then all of a sudden it a means of killing rather than protecting - I think this happens often too. 

I love guns, but shit me, I wouldn't want one in my house. [I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit what I think either lol, because I don't give a shit.]


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hunting/sport - the police force.
> 
> What I find odd, is that your amendment or country gives no real reasons as to why it's morally right [that's somehow is a representation of 'freedom'] that anyone and everyone can own a gun.
> 
> I think there's a real lack of responsibility somewhere. It's bygone era of gun ownership in a very modern society nowadays.
> 
> What's the reason and meaning of owning guns out in America anyway?
> 
> If you don't shoot for sport or hunting -
> 
> Is it just because there's a heap of paranoia along the lines of, "well, my neighbor has guns so I should too, just in case"
> 
> Do you all feel so threatened you need a gun in case you need to protect yourself?
> 
> I get a sense there's a mass culture of that kind of frame of mind.
> 
> "protection" - It's just a bit of a weak excuse in my opinion, scared people that own guns... then one day something kicks off in their life, depression, alcoholism, drugs, a violent divorce, a dispute with a neighbor, a family feud etc. and then all of a sudden it a means of killing rather than protecting - I think this happens often too.
> 
> I love guns, but shit me, I wouldn't want one in my house. [I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit what I think either lol, because I don't give a shit.]



we hunt
we sport shoot
we have all kinds of current & ex military & law enforcement that would not be w/out a weapon on them- it's ingrained.
we do feel the need to protect ourselves & have the rights to do so. 
this goes right back to times of British rule and people that felt oppressed & unfairly treated.

in all these recent shooting not 1 person that I read about being killed or wounded was armed. 

doesn't that tell you something? 

and not "everyone" has the freedom to possess a weapon or own one,or even be around one for that matter.

you don't know our laws so therefore you can't understand them & are the last person to have the right to judge them or question them. 

I mean that in a nice way,btw- it just doesn't sound nice in type.


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hunting/sport - the police force.
> 
> What I find odd, is that your amendment or country gives no real reasons as to why it's morally right [that's somehow is a representation of 'freedom'] that anyone and everyone can own a gun.
> 
> I think there's a real lack of responsibility somewhere. It's bygone era of gun ownership in a very modern society nowadays.
> 
> What's the reason and meaning of owning guns out in America anyway?
> 
> If you don't shoot for sport or hunting -
> 
> Is it just because there's a heap of paranoia along the lines of, "well, my neighbor has guns so I should too, just in case"
> 
> Do you all feel so threatened you need a gun in case you need to protect yourself?
> 
> I get a sense there's a mass culture of that kind of frame of mind.
> 
> "protection" - It's just a bit of a weak excuse in my opinion, scared people that own guns... then one day something kicks off in their life, depression, alcoholism, drugs, a violent divorce, a dispute with a neighbor, a family feud etc. and then all of a sudden it a means of killing rather than protecting - I think this happens often too.
> 
> I love guns, but shit me, I wouldn't want one in my house. [I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit what I think either lol, because I don't give a shit.]



Clearly you have no education or understanding of constitutional law (not that you are expected to as a foreigner) but then you seem to comment as if you do.


1. Hunting is NOT a right... it is a privilege. This "privilege" is licensed (or not) and revokable by the state like a drivers license (which is also a privilege, not a right).

2. Defense was explicitly stated by the founding fathers. The entire purpose of the Second translated in today's terms was not to give us Glocks to defend ourselves from psychos. It was placed there to give us M-16s to storm the Capitol building in the event they went too far in disobedience of the limits placed before them in the Constitution. 


Again, the Constitution does NOT apply on an individual-to-individual basis. Thus, if you write for my newspaper, I (as a private citizen) can censor your speech, or force you to consent to humiliating searches to stay employed.

The Amendments of the Constitution then, ONLY apply to the interaction between state and citizen and it was a measure to ensure the people weren't treated like second class garbage as the British did to the colonials. period.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> we hunt
> we sport shoot
> we have all kinds of current & ex military & law enforcement that would not be w/out a weapon on them- it's ingrained.
> we do feel the need to protect ourselves & have the rights to do so.
> this goes right back to times of British rule and people that felt oppressed & unfairly treated.
> 
> in all these recent shooting not 1 person that I read about being killed or wounded was armed.
> 
> doesn't that tell you something?
> 
> and not "everyone" has the freedom to possess a weapon or own one,or even be around one for that matter.
> 
> you don't know our laws so therefore you can't understand them & are the last person to have the right to judge them or question them.
> 
> I mean that in a nice way,btw- it just doesn't sound nice in type.



 Generally speaking if you don't know something, you can't understand it no, you're absolutely right. 

However this is a pretty simple one - it's been a law debated for decades and decades, and it's even a hot topic in the UK - perhaps you didn't know that?

So it's talked about a lot. 

Your rationale tells me a few things:-

There's no point changing the law, ever! 
A means to an end 

I think you have the attitude that it doesn't matter how many people die from guns, because "It's your right to own them" lol.. 

Weak excuse and has a thesis from a bygone era of international policy, ruling.. in fact that's all pretty much irrelevant. 

WOOP WOOP! 

LOCK N LOAD BOYS!!!!!!!!!

I hope your law never changes on guns.. you truly do own the right to own these things ... and you've proven as a country you're adult enough not to fuck other people up.

Guns are your favourite toys over there and you won't put them down .. it's a sort of egoistic national chauvinism to me too, it's a way and valley of masturbating over precious documents your so proud of .. the constitution and the declaration of independence. 

I wonder what Obama will do....... the NRA are too strong.. 

Life goes on and there'll be more and more massacres and death to fill the newspapers with.... very sad 

Like Soulcaster said earlier.. _blood is on all of your hands... _
His words, not mine.


----------



## blues_n_cues

V-man said:


> 1. hunting is NOT a right it is a privilege. This "privilege" is licensed (or not) and revokable by the state like a drivers license (which is also a privilege, not a right).



sorry brother but I have to correct you.

Kentucky voters make hunting, fishing a constitutional right


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Clearly you have no education or understanding of constitutional law (not that you are expected to as a foreigner) but then you seem to comment as if you do.
> 
> 
> 1. Hunting is NOT a right... it is a privilege. This "privilege" is licensed (or not) and revokable by the state like a drivers license (which is also a privilege, not a right).
> 
> 2. Defense was explicitly stated by the founding fathers. The entire purpose of the Second translated in today's terms was not to give us Glocks to defend ourselves from psychos. It was placed there to give us M-16s to storm the Capitol building in the event they went too far in disobedience of the limits placed before them in the Constitution.
> 
> 
> Again, the Constitution does NOT apply on an individual-to-individual basis. Thus, if you write for my newspaper, I (as a private citizen) can censor your speech, or force you to consent to humiliating searches to stay employed.
> 
> The Amendments of the Constitution then, ONLY apply to the interaction between state and citizen and it was a measure to ensure the people weren't treated like second class garbage as the British did to the colonials. period.



You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children... 

and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns.. 

Totally awful -


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

President Obama has said on a number of occasions that “elections matter.” The sad truth is that they matter far less in the United States than in many other countries around the world. Canadians should feel fortunate not to be enmeshed within such a *remarkably dysfunctional* – or, as New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman has described it, *“pathological”– political system.*

 Totally agree with this -

Link: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comm...-brick-wall-stands-in-the-way/article6458239/


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Clearly you have no education or understanding of constitutional law



Just doing some light reading bro... 

_Political scientists have estimated, for example, that former president Bill Clinton’s insistence in 1994 on an assault-weapons ban as part of a comprehensive crime-control bill directly contributed to the stunning victory by Republicans in the elections later that year. That victory included the defeat of the incumbent Speaker of the House, Thomas Foley, a representative from western Washington State with many pro-gun constituents in his district.

Since that election especially, the National Rifle Association has become one of the most feared groups in American politics. Gun-rights groups in general contributed over $3-million to candidates in the 2012 election cycle, with over $2.8-million of it going to Republican candidates. At least as important as the money, though, is the ability of the NRA to mobilize its members to vote for preferred candidates. Far more of the NRA’s 4.3 million members are “single-issue” voters than are members of gun-control groups.

In several ways, then, it is a bad investment for most candidates to be strongly identified with a position that can be described as “anti-gun.”

Would the president and his party behave differently if the United States had a Canadian-like parliamentary system, where one expects prime ministers and their parties to offer cogent responses to the great issues of the day? One might well think so. But, for better and definitely for worse, the United States remains trapped in a late 18th-century system of separated powers and “checks-and-balances” that is designed to maximize the number of veto points over legislation that might significantly change the status quo.

It therefore does not matter that the president won a resounding political victory last month and that his party, defying expectations, actually increased its membership in the United States Senate. Republican control of the House gives them what might well be called a death-ray veto over any and all proposals made by the President, even if adopted by the Senate.

President Obama has said on a number of occasions that “elections matter.” The sad truth is that they matter far less in the United States than in many other countries around the world. Canadians should feel fortunate not to be enmeshed within such a remarkably dysfunctional – or, as New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman has described it, “pathological”– political system.

Whether one focuses on what is sometimes called America’s “gun culture,” traceable at least in part to the successful armed revolution against Great Britain, or on the rigidities of the American constitutional order, including the political institutions established by the Constitution, the practical conclusion is the same: The status quo, whatever its problems, is likely to prevail._


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children...
> 
> and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns..
> 
> Totally awful -



you just have a hard-on for America.
here's something for you & remember. this kid did not obtain the gun through proper channels & permitting.
crazy is as crazy does & you can't stop batshit crazy.
List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## blues_n_cues

thomas hamilton watt ring a bell??? 
Dunblane school massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hmm,school,guns,U.K.

oh,but that was Scotland...


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> I've got 2 guns in my house atm, they are not mine but, they are safely locked away in a gun safe. To leave them unsecured is akin to pulling the trigger yourself if they were ever used illegally


 
So....if you leave your keys in you car and unlocked and i steal it and run over 20 kids you are responsible? Wow, i like that thinking.


----------



## LKrevival

Nudge68 said:


> I want to read all these posts to understand the view points. I hope the mods don't delete this thread as it's educational for someone like me who isn't living in the US and/or has never understood the fire arms debate.
> 
> *the below is my pondering aloud .... completely rhetorical *
> 
> Just following the logic of the US enshrined right to bear arms. Is it fair to say that any nation should be able rightly arm itself "like-for-like" vs. other nations? If Iran was a citizen of the US, Iran would have the right to arm itself, right? If the US constitution was "Global", Iran being a citizen of the world would have the right to develop nuclear weapons just like the UK, France, China, US, India, Pakistan & Nth Korea.
> 
> Just my musing, BTW. And I know its off topic. Just pondering aloud.
> 
> Blessings to you all.
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



Well to start with one of the twisted misconceptions that the 2nd amendment pertains only to a militia which some have attempted to say means the nation guard. 

To give you a idea into the mindset of most Americans. 

No the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to the state militia, which in this day and age is the national guard controlled by the governor but subject to federal control under certain conditions which why national guard units have been deployed overseas into war zones.

The national guard has become effectively government troops. The essence of the bill of rights is to uphold rights for individual citizens , not to uphold rights for the government.

This is sometimes a double edged sword, because with individual freedoms comes responsibility but unfortunately sometimes some abuse these freedoms like this sicko did. Which leaves the choice to punish people as a whole and repeal freedom or to live with the possibilty that some will abuse it. 

Most American's prefer the latter. We are use to being our own person, not having government as our nanny, this whole concept came from living under a government that abused people and forced us to do its bidding, the concept that while a individual criminal can terrorize a government with too much control can be the ultimate terror. We cringe at something so violent and senseless like a sicko killing 20 or 30 people but looking back in history governments have more blood on its hands than anybody sometimes being responsible for killing not just 20 or 30, but hundreds of thousands if not millions.

With all due respect to other people in other nations, most others outside the U.S.A are warmer to authority by their government. They through ages have lived under a system where government has authority compared to individual rights. While individual rights has increased through time in certain nations they haven't in some situations and those people prefer it that way so be it. 

Not to say that the U.S.A is completely free, but people here tend to distrust government and want individuality from it more than some other people in the world, that is the way it seems to many American's looking at others around the world anyway.

While some nations have placed restrictions or bans on weapons after someone abused them, like in Scotland, Americans tend not to put too much faith in the police being able to protect them. As the the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. You are ultimately your best protector.


----------



## blues_n_cues

and the funniest thing about this debate is- I don't own firearms anymore..


----------



## anitoli

Micky said:


> I work in a school of 650 students and 150 staff and teachers.
> 
> The constant stream of vendors, deliveries, parents and others is incredible. Hundreds within a single day. Yet we are a public school, in Vermont, and the main doors are unlocked. Anyone could come in.
> 
> I personally have suggested arming select staff and/or teachers, but I feel that may not be the 'whole' answer. A combination of that as well as building security measures 'may' thwart most threats, but a much broader, more complete answer is needed.
> 
> Getting rid of the guns is not the answer. These terrorists (yes, that is the correct word in this instance) will use whatever means necessary to inflict the pain and fear they feel will hurt innocent people most. If it isn't guns, it will be explosives. If not that then poison gas, or some other method of generating fear and death. These gun arguments are not productive at all. Connecticut has some of the strictest gun laws in the USA, but laws will only keep honest people honest.
> 
> Security, as well as trained officers in schools is the first best tool to prevent this from happening again.
> 
> What about the nutjob that packs a vehicle full of explosives and parks right next to the building? Boom, and possibly a couple hundred kids are gone. Or even worse yet, one who drives right thru the front door into the center of the school? Guns aren't the only threat, they are just the most prevalent one.
> 
> Soon schools will look like prisons, but at least they may be a bit more safe. Until those in charge realize that yes, this CAN happen here, things won't change much. Unfortunately, this is becoming the sad reality of our society, along with gang slayings, drug overdoses and all the other seedy, illegal activities that desperate people resort to.
> 
> Kind of makes you lose faith in humanity...


 
Interesting to note the Vermont like Maine has one of the highest gun ownership rates per-capita and yet two of the lowest violent crime rates even though we have higher than normal unemployment rates. Hmmmm.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> you just have a hard-on for America.
> here's something for you & remember. this kid did not obtain the gun through proper channels & permitting.
> crazy is as crazy does & you can't stop batshit crazy.
> List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I love America, I openly express my love for it. Doesn't bother me I like America!  

Also, I like talking shit about guns.. what gives?

Just a bunch of fun.. _I don't care who gets shot, kids, teachers, women.. etc.. _just like George Carlin.. don't give a shit really. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LzH4V_QEvA]George Carlin gun enthusiasts - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> and the funniest thing about this debate is- I don't own firearms anymore..



You're a more decent citizen for doing so too! give yourself a pat on the back for being civilized.


----------



## anitoli

12barjunkie said:


> We don't have a gun problem in America, we have a DRUG problem.
> 
> Every person who is on psychiatric drugs is not a mass murderer, BUT, every mass murderer (in recent history) has been on psychiatric drugs. Not some of them, not most of them, but every single one of them! (the media does their best to cover up this fact and the general public always overlooks it)
> 
> I seriously believe that a certain percentage of people that are having psychological issues have some sort of chemical imbalance or DNA irregularity that causes them to flip out when mixed with the drugs.
> 
> I think we need to shift our focus to research and testing the different types of drugs and their effects instead of gun control. I'm also sure it won't happen because all of these attacks are the anti gun people's "Golden Goose"


 
Exactly. I brought this up in post #165, as well as a few others but it got basically ignored. I posted a link to school shootings to demonstrate the increase in these occurences *DIRECTLY *coincides with the drug revolution and subsequent drug sub-culture that followed.

Now if you include the non-school mass rampages and the link to pshycoactive meds things start to make a little more sense.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're a more decent citizen for doing so too! give yourself a pat on the back for being civilized.



I'm not any more civilized today than when I carried concealed or had one w/in a foot of me 24/7. it's just safer w/ small children around the house. I don't NEED a firearm to hunt or defend myself. besides,ya ever seen someone try to run away w/ an arrow in their ass....


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hunting/sport - the police force.
> 
> What I find odd, is that your amendment or country gives no real reasons as to why it's morally right [that's somehow is a representation of 'freedom'] that anyone and everyone can own a gun.
> 
> I think there's a real lack of responsibility somewhere. It's bygone era of gun ownership in a very modern society nowadays.
> 
> What's the reason and meaning of owning guns out in America anyway?
> 
> If you don't shoot for sport or hunting -
> 
> Is it just because there's a heap of paranoia along the lines of, "well, my neighbor has guns so I should too, just in case"
> 
> Do you all feel so threatened you need a gun in case you need to protect yourself?
> 
> I get a sense there's a mass culture of that kind of frame of mind.
> 
> "protection" - It's just a bit of a weak excuse in my opinion, scared people that own guns... then one day something kicks off in their life, depression, alcoholism, drugs, a violent divorce, a dispute with a neighbor, a family feud etc. and then all of a sudden it a means of killing rather than protecting - I think this happens often too.
> 
> I love guns, but shit me, I wouldn't want one in my house. [I don't give a shit if you don't give a shit what I think either lol, because I don't give a shit.]


 
You must "give a shit a little" otherwise you wouldnt have wasted the time to type all of that.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> I'm not any more civilized today than when I carried concealed or had one w/in a foot of me 24/7. it's just safer w/ small children around the house. I don't NEED a firearm to hunt or defend myself. besides,ya ever seen someone try to run away w/ an arrow in their ass....



 

Maybe I should just take the attitude towards this whole gun thing, because I've gotta make up my mind some how, that in the US people love guns and the idea of them representing freedom from a bygone and historic facet of American culture and law, and just not be so surprised and disappointed when there are mass civilian killings. 

It's like the batman killings, people said after that, "unless something is changed, these frequent massacres will happen again" - and they were right, it's happened again... 

And will happen over, and over again! - so get used to it. It's almost just a culture now... 

I find it ironic, sad, irresponsible, meaningless, needless, vulnerable, hypocritical, old fashioned and mostly just a freak of human behavior and need. 

I'm pretty sure Sigismund Schlomo Freud would hold societal fear accountable for citizens needing and wanting to own a gun.


----------



## blues_n_cues

ok,I just have to ask FS-who is that in your Avatar? 
that's some 40's version of Rosie O'donnell or something??

if it's your mom, I didn't mean to offend.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> You must "give a shit a little" otherwise you wouldnt have wasted the time to type all of that.



I was anticipating a rebuttal 

This whole idea of nationality coming into the discussion and such, I think is totally bullshit when discussing a very universal right that's either given or withheld from all government on this world. 

Everyone can relate to whether citizens owning guns freely or not, is a good or bad thing. 

My not giving a shit was a future prerequisite and response to people saying stuff like, "we don't give a shit what you think" ... well I don't give a shit you don't give a shit!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> ok,I just have to ask FS-who is that in your Avatar?
> that's some 40's version of Rosie O'donnell or something??
> 
> if it's your mom, I didn't mean to offend.



 

It's Ayn Rand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_rand


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Maybe I should just take the attitude towards this whole gun thing, because I've gotta make up my mind some how, that in the US people love guns and the idea of them representing freedom from a bygone and historic facet of American culture and law, and just not be so surprised and disappointed when there are mass civilian killings.
> 
> It's like the batman killings, people said after that, "unless something is changed, these frequent massacres will happen again" - and they were right, it's happened again...
> 
> And will happen over, and over again! - so get used to it. It's almost just a culture now...
> QUOTE]
> 
> ever heard of the uni bomber. or Iraq,afghan,mexico,the Tylenol killer, Anthrax,911,etc..if someone wants to kill,they'll find a way to do it.
> 
> and you don't have to make up your mind because it's not YOUR country or YOUR people.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Generally speaking if you don't know something, you can't understand it no, you're absolutely right.
> 
> However this is a pretty simple one - it's been a law debated for decades and decades, and it's even a hot topic in the UK - perhaps you didn't know that?
> 
> So it's talked about a lot.
> 
> Your rationale tells me a few things:-
> 
> There's no point changing the law, ever!
> A means to an end
> 
> I think you have the attitude that it doesn't matter how many people die from guns, because "It's your right to own them" lol..
> 
> Weak excuse and has a thesis from a bygone era of international policy, ruling.. in fact that's all pretty much irrelevant.
> 
> WOOP WOOP!
> 
> LOCK N LOAD BOYS!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I hope your law never changes on guns.. you truly do own the right to own these things ... and you've proven as a country you're adult enough not to fuck other people up.
> 
> Guns are your favourite toys over there and you won't put them down .. it's a sort of egoistic national chauvinism to me too, it's a way and valley of masturbating over precious documents your so proud of .. the constitution and the declaration of independence.
> 
> I wonder what Obama will do....... the NRA are too strong..
> 
> Life goes on and there'll be more and more massacres and death to fill the newspapers with.... very sad
> 
> Like Soulcaster said earlier.. _blood is on all of your hands... _
> His words, not mine.


 
You need a history lesson. EVERY major genocide that has occured since 1900 was only accomplished AFTER the offending goverments passed laws forbidding the "target people" from possesing firearms. It is SO much easier to kill 6 million unarmed Jews, 800,000 subtribal unarmed vermin in Rwanda, or 1.8 Million "educated peoples" in Cambodia, to name a few.

The 2nd Amendment was inserted into the US Constitution to protect against tyranny in goverment. This also crosses into and individuals RIGHT to self defense. If government is not allowed to take your life neither is joe blow. 

Thirdly, I am not responsible for what just happened. There is no blood on my hands....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> Feeling Supersonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I should just take the attitude towards this whole gun thing, because I've gotta make up my mind some how, that in the US people love guns and the idea of them representing freedom from a bygone and historic facet of American culture and law, and just not be so surprised and disappointed when there are mass civilian killings.
> 
> It's like the batman killings, people said after that, "unless something is changed, these frequent massacres will happen again" - and they were right, it's happened again...
> 
> And will happen over, and over again! - so get used to it. It's almost just a culture now...
> QUOTE]
> 
> ever heard of the uni bomber. or Iraq,afghan,mexico,the Tylenol killer, Anthrax,911,etc..if someone wants to kill,they'll find a way to do it.
> 
> and you don't have to make up your mind because it's not YOUR country or YOUR people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know dude, but over 12,000 people murdered using a gun each year in the US?
> 
> Compared to the rest of the world, it's a stat that stick out like a sore thumb. The US is western, secular [mainly], an MEDC and has no real reason to have such a statistic.
> 
> It's cringeworthy. That's excluding the total of all gun related deaths, including suicides etc.
> 
> Over 12,000 people .. how many is that a day that someone is murdered with a gun?
> 
> 32 people a day..... every 24 hours.. 32 are murdered with a gun.
> 
> It totally smacks that amendment in the face doesn't it? - IT'S NOT WORKING.
Click to expand...


----------



## gdh1532

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children...
> 
> and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns..
> 
> Totally awful -



where do you come up with this? It has never been legal to kill children. In fact it is illegal to murder anyone (notice I said murder, not kill) because what happened is this kid murdered 27 people, 20 children, and 7 adults, his mother being one of them. Every one of them was murdered. If he had not of died himself, he would be prosecuted by law, in the process of this he would be examined for mental health. If he was found insane, he would be held in a facility for the criminally insane. If not he'd be sent up to the big house for life, or put to death (if that state has a death penalty). 

No where in the united states is it legal to murder people. Your jump to this kind of conclusion shows to me, you are just fucking around here, trying to stir shit up. 

the best guess on the amount of guns owned by people ...52 million people are gun owners, the amount of guns is around 250 million . That's a of people that are not shooting other people, being responsible (and a small % unresponsible) gun owners, that follow the laws. 

This kid that did the killing was not a gun owner, he acquired the guns illegally

Really the issue is not gun ownership but, gun ownership responsibility, and what is behind the thought processes of the people, that think they need to acquire guns (legally and illegally), to carry out theses horrible acts.


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> So....if you leave your keys in you car and unlocked and i steal it and run over 20 kids you are responsible? Wow, i like that thinking.



Thats a fairly lame analogy,,,...do you have a point to make? Youre comparing a gun with a mode of transport,,,..
So your fine with leaving guns unsecured? Cool


----------



## Söulcaster

Hey Super if you're going to quote me, you could at least be accurate...,,,clown lol


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> You need a history lesson. EVERY major genocide that has occured since 1900 was only accomplished AFTER the offending goverments passed laws forbidding the "target people" from possesing firearms. It is SO much easier to kill 6 million unarmed Jews, 800,000 subtribal unarmed vermin in Rwanda, or 1.8 Million "educated peoples" in Cambodia, to name a few.
> 
> The 2nd Amendment was inserted into the US Constitution to protect against tyranny in goverment. This also crosses into and individuals RIGHT to self defense. If government is not allowed to take your life neither is joe blow.
> 
> Thirdly, I am not responsible for what just happened. There is no blood on my hands....



Thanks for the history lesson!  I'm now equipped for my travels..

This happened because some divvy mum with a fucked up son was allowed to bear arms.. due to the second amendment.. 

You condone the amendment.. you condone her right to own guns.. 

indirectly you supported the notion that your irresponsible government under the 2cd amendment in trusting her behavior with such weapons.. 

She then trained her son to shoot... then didn't restrict him enough from coming into possession of such weapons.. 

he went banzai and killed loads of people.. 

It was possible for him to so because of the 2cd amendment.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children...
> 
> and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns..
> 
> Totally awful -


 
Another lesson....christ do some reading on American gun laws!!!

You can not LEGALLY OWN a machine gun unless you have a CLASS 3 WEAPONS LICENSE! To get this takes a shitload of red tape, that most clowns dont want to bother with. The guns used were permissible to own under federal law. 

Your problem with understanding this issue is your injecting too much of an unnessesary emotional bias into something that doesnt affect you directly - current US gun laws.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> Hey Super if you're going to quote me, you could at least be accurate...,,,clown lol



 okay..




Söulcaster said:


> maybe we all have blood on our hands?


 

Your suggestion... not mine!


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> blues_n_cues said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know dude, but over 12,000 people murdered using a gun each year in the US?
> QUOTE]
> 
> and more than that killed by drunk drivers,so we should ban cars altogether because the actions of the few???
Click to expand...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Another lesson....christ do some reading on American gun laws!!!
> 
> You can not LEGALLY OWN a machine gun unless you have a CLASS 3 WEAPONS LICENSE! To get this takes a shitload of red tape, that most clowns dont want to bother with. The guns used were permissible to own under federal law.
> 
> Your problem with understanding this issue is your injecting too much of an unnessesary emotional bias into something that doesnt affect you directly - current US gun laws.



Hey man! I'm learning, and your teaching me some shit. 

I'm so emotional about this whole thing, I'm locked in my house crying my eyes with a box of kleenex .. just weeping my little clown face out.. boo hoo.. help me! 

I'm interesting in global interests.. guns in the US is one of them.. I decide what I'm interested in  not you... so I'll talk about and learn about it as much as I like. 

I presume anyone in the US can go to a gunshot and buy a 45m pistol?


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hey man! I'm learning, and your teaching me some shit.
> 
> I'm so emotional about this whole thing, I'm locked in my house crying my eyes with a box of kleenex .. just weeping my little clown face out.. boo hoo.. help me!
> 
> I'm interesting in global interests.. guns in the US is one of them.. I decide what I'm interested in  not you... so I'll talk about and learn about it as much as I like.
> 
> I presume anyone in the US can go to a gunshot and buy a 45m pistol?



nope.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> and more than that killed by drunk drivers,so we should ban cars altogether because the actions of the few???



I heard a joke about this earlier.. about banning cars and all sorts that are accountable for death.. thing is..

society needs cars to get places... what the fuck does society need guns for? 

paranoid citizens thinking their big bad government will overthrow them? - you're already not free, your slaves.. passive consumers etc..

all this through the guise of the bygone age of the 2cd amendment.. 

Your favourite toy... that you won't put down..

really doesn't compute....


----------



## blues_n_cues

people who cannot obtain a firearm legally-

under 18 years of age
record of mental illness or under physician's care for same-depending on state
convicted felons
people w/ DWI'S depending on state.
people who owe back child support-depending on state
people w/ violent crime history-depending on state
people on probation or parole.


that's just a few examples.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_States


----------



## blues_n_cues

I think I'm done here..


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> I think I'm done here..



Same.. shits boring now. Thanks for the shits and gigs though


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I was anticipating a rebuttal
> 
> This whole idea of nationality coming into the discussion and such, I think is totally bullshit when discussing a very universal right that's either given or withheld from all government on this world.


 
You need to clarify that. If its a UNIVERSAL RIGHT, why is the US the only country that "gives" that right to its citizens almost without question?
No where else does this.


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children...
> 
> and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns..
> 
> Totally awful -



Honestly, you must have had a good time this weekend because your posts are getting stupider by the hour.

At this point you are adding absolutely nothing of merit and cast these schoolyard insults and inflammatory accusations here.

This is why for years I have remained hostile towards foreigners posting on sites in judgement of our laws (particular Englanders) as invariably they expel their haughty ignorance on subjects they lack even a shred of credibility discussing as they quip smugly as Mother England installs yet another camera up their backsides.


So, after commenting stupidly on what you claim our laws are and I take the time to explain it to you, you feel it necessary to accuse me of blindly following some "insignificant document" and throw out some scathing remark about how it's the tool of murder here. What exactly were you hoping to gain that? How does that convey anything worthy of discussion here? All you have contributed to the discussion is that you are an ignorant, arrogant prick who has indignantly risen from the child's table to mingle with the grown folk and you are in need of a swat on the behind and your bib thrust back into your collar as you are placed back on the high chair. In short, you and your kind comprise the substantial part of why we cannot have certain topical "DISCUSSIONS" here because you lack the aptitude to contribute to them.

As for the door you have opened of me "blindly following" some document, I will clue you in on something I have never uttered during my membership at MF. I have a degree in English Lit (where I have studied your great thinkers and the foundational works of your government) I have a degree in history where I have studied the frameworks of both of our governments, and I have a JD where have studied at length the legal workings of our countries. You typically don't get accepted to and achieve degrees from such universities in such disciplines without the ability to freely think, critically analyze, and effectively argue. So, not only do I resent your baseless accusation, but I can spot you one of my degrees (something you can sorely use it seems) and still kick your window licking ass all over this forum in terms of "discussing" this subject. Stick to what you know... Greg Proops and fart jokes, and maybe once you have learned something ", see if you can present here it intelligently.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hey man! I'm learning, and your teaching me some shit.
> 
> I'm so emotional about this whole thing, I'm locked in my house crying my eyes with a box of kleenex .. just weeping my little clown face out.. boo hoo.. help me!
> 
> I'm interesting in global interests.. guns in the US is one of them.. I decide what I'm interested in  not you... so I'll talk about and learn about it as much as I like.
> 
> I presume anyone in the US can go to a gunshot and buy a 45m pistol?


 
No, because there is no such thing as a 45m pistol.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> You need to clarify that. If its a UNIVERSAL RIGHT, why is the US the only country that "gives" that right to its citizens almost without question?
> No where else does this.



I don't know, but I could find out.. I'm sure my knowledge of this will evolve a bit in the future.. 'a bit' lol.. 
I've learnt some bits and bobs from my ignorance in this thread which can only be a good thing! - I admit, I am ignorant.. but I go to battle anyway to do some learning.. 

Canada? - can you bear arms there? 

What's my prediction?

I don't think the 2cd amendment will be changed - and I don't think the US will change much. 

What's your prediction?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> No, because there is no such thing as a 45m pistol.



a .45m?

I missed out the full stop.. I type as fast I can .. things get missed sometimes.. as well as thought before typing..


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Honestly, you must have had a good time this weekend because your posts are getting stupider by the hour.



 

In all truth V-man, this weekend was a messy one! Football club's Christmas bash at the races... I'm still drunk I think, and I have a cold too... mega binge drinking happened.. and I can barely cope.. I don't think I'm quite myself at the moment.. so if I seem more retarded than usual... I'm sorry.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I heard a joke about this earlier.. about banning cars and all sorts that are accountable for death.. thing is..
> 
> society needs cars to get places... what the fuck does society need guns for?
> 
> paranoid citizens thinking their big bad government will overthrow them? - you're already not free, your slaves.. passive consumers etc..
> 
> all this through the guise of the bygone age of the 2cd amendment..
> 
> Your favourite toy... that you won't put down..
> 
> really doesn't compute....


 
Dude, not to be condecending but WW2 wasnt that long ago. And if you remember right, the gun crazy Americans were the ones who won that big bad war. Do you recall exactly what was going on? Just try telling a modern day Jew that guns are no longer nessesary cause the governments gonna protect you......


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Honestly, you must have had a good time this weekend because your posts are getting stupider by the hour.
> 
> At this point you are adding absolutely nothing of merit and cast these schoolyard insults and inflammatory accusations here.
> 
> This is why for years I have remained hostile towards foreigners posting on sites in judgement of our laws (particular Englanders) as invariably they expel their haughty ignorance on subjects they lack even a shred of credibility discussing as they quip smugly as Mother England installs yet another camera up their backsides.
> 
> 
> So, after commenting stupidly on what you claim our laws are and I take the time to explain it to you, you feel it necessary to accuse me of blindly following some "insignificant document" and throw out some scathing remark about how it's the tool of murder here. What exactly were you hoping to gain that? How does that convey anything worthy of discussion here? All you have contributed to the discussion is that you are an ignorant, arrogant prick who has indignantly risen from the child's table to mingle with the grown folk and you are in need of a swat on the behind and your bib thrust back into your collar as you are placed back on the high chair. In short, you and your kind comprise the substantial part of why we cannot have certain topical "DISCUSSIONS" here because you lack the aptitude to contribute to them.
> 
> As for the door you have opened of me "blindly following" some document, I will clue you in on something I have never uttered during my membership at MF. I have a degree in English Lit (where I have studied your great thinkers and the foundational works of your government) I have a degree in history where I have studied the frameworks of both of our governments, and I have a JD where have studied at length the legal workings of our countries. You typically don't get accepted to and achieve degrees from such universities in such disciplines without the ability to freely think, critically analyze, and effectively argue. So, not only do I resent your baseless accusation, but I can spot you one of my degrees (something you can sorely use it seems) and still kick your window licking ass all over this forum in terms of "discussing" this subject. Stick to what you know... Greg Proops and fart jokes, and maybe once you have learned something ", see if you can present here it intelligently.



meh, I liked your writing here...

Although.. how many people are murdered in my country each year as a result of guns? 

And how many in yours?

Exactly.. you're an embarrassment as a country.. the rest of the world considers you a freak in your infancy and naive and reckless behavior.. letting citizens run free in society with guns.. 

A lovable freak may I add!  like the hunchback of notre dame .. I just wanna hug yah!


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> a .45m?
> 
> I missed out the full stop.. I type as fast I can .. things get missed sometimes.. as well as thought before typing..


 
.45 Long Colt or .45 ACP or .45-70 Gov?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Dude, not to be condecending but WW2 wasnt that long ago. And if you remember right, the gun crazy Americans were the ones who won that big bad war.



 

HOLY FUCK! a new low. I'm not even going there about Americans thinking they won that war or saved people......it makes me nauseous. Like, I want to puke everywhere...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> .45 Long Colt or .45 ACP or .45-70 Gov?



This is a Carbine bushmaster.. 






One of the guns used to kill all the children...


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It's Ayn Rand.
> 
> Ayn Rand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


 
There you go. It all makes sense now.


----------



## Söulcaster

Feeling Supersonic said:


> okay..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your suggestion... not mine!



It was actually a question and the context had nothing to do with how you used it. I'm honored you would use my "garbage" to substantiate your own drivel, seeing you lack the capacity to back up your own argument it wasn't totally unexpected.


----------



## Nudge68

crossroadsnyc said:


> ... As for nuclear weapons (which is going off topic) ... well, seeing as how citizens can't have nuclear weapons in their personal possession, I'm not sure that it's applicable to this debate.



Yes, as my post states, the comment is off topic and no, it doesn't apply to this debate per se.

I was pondering the proliferation of weapons and why any of this makes sense on any level at all. 

Your points are well made, thank you.

Cheers,

Matt.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> There you go. It all makes sense now.



The most influential person to ever walk in America apart from Jesus. 



I can do backhanded comments too.. bring em on!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> It was actually a question and the context had nothing to do with how you used it. I'm honored you would use my "garbage" to substantiate your own drivel, seeing you lack the capacity to back up your own argument it wasn't totally unexpected.



It was a rhetorical question that averred the possibility we all have blood on our hands... that is a fact. 

Meh, you're a pretty sensible dude in my opinion so I take heed when you write a response.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> meh, I liked your writing here...
> 
> Although.. how many people are murdered in my country each year as a result of guns?
> 
> And how many in yours?
> 
> Exactly.. you're an embarrassment as a country.. the rest of the world considers you a freak in your infancy and naive and reckless behavior.. letting citizens run free in society with guns..
> 
> A lovable freak may I add!  like the hunchback of notre dame .. I just wanna hug yah!



wow. you just pissed off an entire nation from your chair.....


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> In all truth V-man, this weekend was a messy one! Football club's Christmas bash at the races... I'm still drunk I think, and I have a cold too... mega binge drinking happened.. and I can barely cope.. I don't think I'm quite myself at the moment.. so if I seem more retarded than usual... I'm sorry.



Fair enough. Apology accepted.


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Dude, not to be condecending but WW2 wasnt that long ago. And if you remember right, the gun crazy Americans were the ones who won that big bad war. Do you recall exactly what was going on? Just try telling a modern day Jew that guns are no longer nessesary cause the governments gonna protect you......



The Russians had it covered...,,,,


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> wow. you just pissed off an entire nation from your chair.....





The Ozzk said:


>





Obama's on the phone to old Cameron right now..... 

"Cameron, reports are there's a kid in middle England, causing a shit storm on the Marshall forum... can you go to his house and shoot him in the head for us in the land of the free? !!"


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> This is a Carbine bushmaster..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the guns used to kill all the children...



It was also used by Korean store owners to protect their livelihoods from the rioters looting and killing in LA and it was sported by yours truly during Huricane Katrina.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Fair enough. Apology accepted.



 I don't mind being told I'm wrong.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> It was also used by Korean store owners to protect their livelihoods from the rioters looting and killing in LA and it was sported by yours truly during Huricane Katrina.



It was also used by a child killer. Which is the preponderance of upmost importance!


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It was also used by a child killer. Which is the preponderance of upmost importance!



Is it? after all, if a present security guard had that same rifle along with training, you might have the caption under that pic, "saved 75 (or more) lives in this tragedy".


----------



## Nudge68

V-man said:


> There are two issues here. ...
> 
> 
> In the case of anthropomorphizing the State of Iran itself into a subject of antropomorphized United States, we must first point out that the premise is absurd. Nations are not people or personalities. ...



Thank you, V. Good points, well made.

I was just pondering aloud whether the proliferation of weapons from the individual to the nation state .... Nothing more than that. 

cheers,

Matt.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Is it? after all, if a present security guard had that same rifle along with training, you might have the caption under that pic, "saved 75 (or more) lives in this tragedy".



If it's in the hands of a professional... that's great! I fully support arms  

Not a kid with mental problems.


----------



## Alt Freak

The oh so wise philosopher who looks down on all Americans while he lives with his mum and dad.


----------



## Söulcaster

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It was a rhetorical question that averred the possibility we all have blood on our hands... that is a fact.
> 
> Meh, you're a pretty sensible dude in my opinion so I take heed when you write a response.



Fair enough but you used it in direct reference to gun laws, I used it to propose society in general has serious issues,,,...you of all people know society has serious misgivings..,,


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> Fair enough but you used it in direct reference to gun laws, I used it to propose society in general has serious issues,,,...you of all people know society has serious misgivings..,,



I'm not myself right now - I really should go to bed. 

I thought you used it in light of the connecticut killings and sort of questioning everyone's responsibility in preventing killings like this. It came across as though you thought we were all part of the problem.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mvgYVX2rs4]Marilyn Manson - The Love Song - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Alt Freak said:


> The oh so wise philosopher who looks down on all Americans while he lives with his mum and dad.



Hello derp!


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Thats a fairly lame analogy,,,...do you have a point to make? Youre comparing a gun with a mode of transport,,,..
> So your fine with leaving guns unsecured? Cool


 
I know exactly the mindset that you are using which is all guns should be kept locked up at all times to make sure there will not be any unathourised usage. Thats utopian but never the less fatally flawed. DO you know how easy it is to drill out a trigger lock? Do you know how easy it is to break into a house? In this case the mother should of had a clue, or did she? He did kill her first right, and then get the guns or is it the other way around? 

If someone breaks into house (a crime ) and steals an unlocked gun (also a crime of theft) and uses the gun to commit a crime (which is ironically a crime!!!!!) how is the person who had the gun ripped off responsible for the actions of another? I dont get this. Just like i dont get how there is "blood on my hands" because some murderous little cretin ( whom ive never even met or had any influence on ) goes on a killing spree?

Intent of the parties involved needs to be weighed in here big time.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> This is a Carbine bushmaster..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the guns used to kill all the children...


 
So if you know the answers, why are you asking the questions?


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> HOLY FUCK! a new low. I'm not even going there about Americans thinking they won that war or saved people......it makes me nauseous. Like, I want to puke everywhere...


 

Hunnh.....Theres no thinking required as to who WON WW2. And i'll give you a hint it wasnt England.....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> So if you know the answers, why are you asking the questions?



self amusement...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Hunnh.....Theres no thinking required as to who WON WW2. And i'll give you a hint it wasnt England.....



Facepalm dude, major facepalm.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're educated in America, so it seems, to blindly follow and adore documents that make guns legal for citizens to kill children...
> 
> and for me, with no education on the matter, I deem your government on a historical and modern basis totally at fault for allowing the permission for citizens to own machine guns..
> 
> Totally awful -



Maybe you fail to grasp how far-sighted the founding fathers actually were.
You can be sure that they read the books of power, Leviathan, Il Principe etc...
How nations handled similar issues such as the Dutch Republic.
They looked beyond their borders and they wanted a safeguard against that which they fought. Something that would keep US citizens free for centuries to come.
That is why they documented their basic ideas in a way which is timeless and which other peoples could adapt too, including the right for citizens to arm.

For whatever reason some people forgot their responsibilities and commited some horrendous crimes. That however is a fairly new phenomenon and for that reason alone it is clearly not an issue with US gun laws.

Oh, and an ideal world does not exist.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## V-man

anitoli said:


> Intent of the parties involved needs to be weighed in here big time.



This is the point that is ignored or minimized in all such occurances.

People start with "OK, the fucker's crazy" can't fix that, so let's look for another way to short-circuit the issue. In so doing, everybody proceeds to throw the baby out with the bathwater by examining the instrumentalities, and ignoring the larger and more burdonsome social issues.

These officials and the talking heads are just like the moronic Elementary Ed. undergrad student who gets out and lands her first gig teaching first grade. Slow Timmy can't handle the scissors properly so the uncreative myopic approach for this vacuous bimbo is to take all the scissors 
away from the rest of the class while the little miscreant runs off to wreak havoc with the glue now.

Our legal system is unwilling/unprepared to mete out justice on the basis of individual responsibility, our educational system is ill prepared to teach children how to become acceptable members of society, and our social units are unwilling/unable to provide moral guidance (or empower those who can). So, let's pass the scissors up front and wait for the next moronic act to legislate away more freedoms, rather than work on solving the problem instead of masking a symptom.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> Oh, and an ideal world does not exist.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Nope, that's what happens when one places their ideas with expectations.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> Maybe you fail



 

I do fail.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> The Russians had it covered...,,,,


 
Get off! Care to recall the way of life that followed the Russians?
You REALLY think life was better on the other side of the BERLIN WALL?
Really?? That must be why sooooo many people wanted to get the fuck out, hunh? 

Two words for you asshole: George S Patton.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Get off! Care to recall the way of life that followed the Russians?
> You REALLY think life was better on the other side of the BERLIN WALL?
> Really?? That must be why sooooo many people wanted to get the fuck out, hunh?
> 
> Two words for you asshole: George S Patton.



Dude! have some respect for the man!


----------



## V-man

anitoli said:


> Get off! Care to recall the way of life that followed the Russians?
> You REALLY think life was better on the other side of the BERLIN WALL?
> Really?? That must be why sooooo many people wanted to get the fuck out, hunh?
> 
> Two words for you asshole: George S Patton.



Not that you are wrong about how terrible the Russians and their way of life was, but it seemed inevitable that the Russians would in fact prevail, as the German offensive ground to a halt following the winter of '41. In truth, Churchill prolonged the war by holding the US back, allowing the Germans to grind the Russians to death.

Had the US entered in '42, the war would have ended rather quickly, but Churchill was not wrong. Hitler gets some unjust villification. Not that he wasn't every bit the murderous prick that deserved extermination, but that people conveniently forget how unforgivably atrocious the Soviet Regime was and how much genocide was committed by the NKVD on the Poles as well as the Communist party upon its own subjects.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude! have some respect for the man!


 
If people dont make ignorfuckingranimus comments that arent even based in reality.....then respect goes a long way.


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> I know exactly the mindset that you are using which is all guns should be kept locked up at all times to make sure there will not be any unathourised usage. Thats utopian but never the less fatally flawed. DO you know how easy it is to drill out a trigger lock? Do you know how easy it is to break into a house? In this case the mother should of had a clue, or did she? He did kill her first right, and then get the guns or is it the other way around?
> 
> If someone breaks into house (a crime ) and steals an unlocked gun (also a crime of theft) and uses the gun to commit a crime (which is ironically a crime!!!!!) how is the person who had the gun ripped off responsible for the actions of another? I dont get this. Just like i dont get how there is "blood on my hands" because some murderous little cretin ( whom ive never even met or had any influence on ) goes on a killing spree?
> 
> Intent of the parties involved needs to be weighed in here big time.



Sorry I can't help if you have a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read the thread back over....


----------



## anitoli

V-man said:


> Not that you are wrong about how terrible the Russians and their way of life was, but it seemed inevitable that the Russians would in fact prevail, as the German offensive ground to a halt following the winter of '41. In truth, Churchill prolonged the war by holding the US back, allowing the Germans to grind the Russians to death.
> 
> Had the US entered in '42, the war would have ended rather quickly, but Churchill was not wrong. Hitler gets some unjust villification. Not that he wasn't every bit the murderous prick that deserved extermination, but that people conveniently forget how unforgivably atrocious the Soviet Regime was and how much genocide was committed by the NKVD on the Poles as well as the Communist party upon its own subjects.


 
Correct. The Russians played a major role in the defeat of Germany by forcing Hilter to divide his resources on two fronts. Patton captured more land at a faster pace than anyone else. Its this second front in the west that calls into question the assertion that the Russians had it covered. If the Soviets had to face the full brunt of the German Juggernaught combined with logical not delusional planning as Hilter was doing, they might not have fared as well.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Sorry I can't help if you have a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read the thread back over....


 
What is it then that i dont get?


----------



## V-man

anitoli said:


> Correct. The Russians played a major role in the defeat of Germany by forcing Hilter to divide his resources on two fronts. Patton captured more land at a faster pace than anyone else. Its this second front in the west that calls into question the assertion that the Russians had it covered. If the Soviets had to face the full brunt of the German Juggernaught combined with logical not delusional planning as Hilter was doing, they might not have fared as well.



Undoubtedly so. The sacrifice of the US was deep and profound (as it was to ALL involved), and the struggle served as a monument to the tenacity of the American and German war machines alike, as (IIRC) at all given times during the US invasion, approximately 4/5ths of the German infantry was deployed to the Eastern Front.


----------



## anitoli

V-man said:


> Undoubtedly so. The sacrifice of the US was deep and profound, and a the struggle monument to the tenacity of the American and German war machines alike, as (IIRC) at all given times during the US invasion, approximately 4/5ths of the German infantry was deployed to the Eastern Front.


 
It wasnt just the US. Every country that fought regardless of whether it was clandestine resistance, to all out war had a part in the victory. The best marriage of both sides was the P-51 Mustang. Excellent platform and when the brits stuffed in the Merlin, the game changer in the air. The sacrifice of Europe was also deep.


----------



## 12barjunkie

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpBXkvigads]HOW TO STOP A MASSACRE - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> If people dont make ignorfuckingranimus comments that arent even based in reality.....then respect goes a long way.



 That's the sign of poor tact and education. 

Mark Twain and Isaac Newton could teach you a few things on how to conduct yourself. I'm not squeaky clean, but regardless of opinion, respect gets noticed


----------



## anitoli

12barjunkie said:


> HOW TO STOP A MASSACRE - YouTube


 
Funny how they run when faced with resistance. Cowardice.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Just saying, Britain won the battle of Britain before the US's involvement. Hehe!


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Get off! Care to recall the way of life that followed the Russians?
> You REALLY think life was better on the other side of the BERLIN WALL?
> Really?? That must be why sooooo many people wanted to get the fuck out, hunh?
> 
> Two words for you asshole: George S Patton.



Never said anything about that, and I'm not about to give you a history lesson either. Get over yourself, when I want the pigs I'll rattle the bucket...


----------



## V-man

12barjunkie said:


> HOW TO STOP A MASSACRE - YouTube



Granted, the tragedy surrounding this discussion is (and despite the horrifying circus that ensues around it) SHOULD be a significant area of focus by the media, but they NEVER give the other side its due, and stories like these remain page 4 obscurities in the local paper.

When I successfully stopped the armed robbery that ended in gunfire, there wasn't a news anchor to be seen in the aftermath... just a farcical "crimestoppers" reenactment at the end of the local news days later.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's the sign of poor tact and education.
> 
> Mark Twain and Isaac Newton could teach you a few things on how to conduct yourself. I'm not squeaky clean, but regardless of opinion, respect gets noticed


 
Now i'm going to get a lecture on my grammar. Do you actually know my education level? Baseless assumption dude.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> when I want the pigs I'll rattle the bucket...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Now i'm going to get a lecture on my grammar. Do you actually know my education level? Baseless assumption dude.



 I think you've just revealed how 'educated' you are. 

keep talking, and you'll remove all doubt.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

anitoli said:


> Get off! Care to recall the way of life that followed the Russians?
> You REALLY think life was better on the other side of the BERLIN WALL?
> Really?? That must be why sooooo many people wanted to get the fuck out, hunh?
> 
> Two words for you asshole: George S Patton.



A large part of my relatives lived behind the iron curtain.
The only good thing was that everybody had work. Quite a bit of it was non-functional but that aside.
Unbelievably the successor of the SED, called Die Linke, attracted over 10% of votes during the last federal elections in Germany.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Never said anything about that, and I'm not about to give you a history lesson either. Get over yourself, when I want the pigs I'll rattle the bucket...


 
Take a nap baby cakes, youre having a hard time remembering what you typed. I dont need a history lesson from you that's for sure.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I think you've just revealed how 'educated' you are.
> 
> keep talking, and you'll remove all doubt.


 
You removed all doubt about yours a long time ago........


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey now, settle down guys. Take a breath.


----------



## anitoli

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey now, settle down guys. Take a breath.


 
Good suggestion MM. i'm outta here. Have a good night.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> You removed all doubt about yours a long time ago........



I'm under no ego tripping illusions..... 

Have a good trip!


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Good suggestion MM. i'm outta here. Have a good night.



Sweet dreams pumpkin, you'll feel better in the morning....


----------



## blackone

Feeling Supersonic said:


> With all respect, what you have done is spin his comment entirely.
> 
> He was referring, in a very distinguishing fashion, to the Marshall Forum's members that have made their views known in this thread.
> 
> Then, he has jumped to conclusions about the very inner workings of our psychological dispositions and attitudes upon this subject, and some how accounted these attitudes of ours and put forward the idea that it's no wonder there is a 20 year old with mental problems in our/your society killing children - he's connected the actions of this evil man's ways, to the views and attitudes of individuals that have posted in this thread.
> 
> I find it repugnant, offensive, stupid, wrong, untruthful, crass, presumptuous, arrogant and above all, disingenuous.
> 
> If you read the original post in which he stipulates this, you'll find it's black and white.




No, YOU'VE spun his comment entirely, I re-read all the posts and not once did I read where he states that the marshall forum holds the responsibility for a shooting in a school. If you have an issue with him that's fine, but using big words to accomplish your own agenda is frankly, kinda weird. His comments that you've read and clearly misunderstood are what we call 'Metaphorically Speaking'. 

Look it up, it may help to ease some of that pain kiddo.

And stop stirring the damned pot, I was enjoying reading everyones posts on this issue until you started trolling it, get off the fucking bongs man


----------



## Adwex

Ok, before we let yet another issue divide us, let's inject a little levity by letting this chick make the laws, and whatnot.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AQTUIPG8EQ]Connecticut Massacre: My Thoughts On Connecticut Massacre: 20 kids killed in school shooting in US ! - YouTube[/ame]

Yeah honey, you're sooo right, now show some more cleavage, or whatever.


----------



## blackone

Adwex said:


> Ok, before we let yet another issue divide us, let's inject a little levity by letting this chick make the laws, and whatnot.
> 
> Connecticut Massacre: My Thoughts On Connecticut Massacre: 20 kids killed in school shooting in US ! - YouTube
> 
> Yeah honey, you're sooo right, now show some more cleavage, or whatever.



did you actually make it through the whole vid? i stopped at the 29 second mark, her drone sent me into convulsions


----------



## Marshall Mann

Adwex said:


> Ok, before we let yet another issue divide us, let's inject a little levity by letting this chick make the laws, and whatnot.
> 
> Connecticut Massacre: My Thoughts On Connecticut Massacre: 20 kids killed in school shooting in US ! - YouTube
> 
> Yeah honey, you're sooo right, now show some more cleavage, or whatever.



That was painful. And like, seriously!


----------



## Marshall Mann

blackone said:


> did you actually make it through the whole vid? i stopped at the 29 second mark, her drone sent me into convulsions



I made it to 2:37. At that point her drone outweighed her cleavage.


----------



## Adwex

blackone said:


> did you actually make it through the whole vid? i stopped at the 29 second mark, her drone sent me into convulsions



No I didn't. I stuck with it a little longer with it in the background though. It's a shame people that stupid even have a platform (youtube) to "get their message out".


----------



## 12barjunkie

Ugh....I'm gonna go check out some porn or somethin'


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> No, YOU'VE spun his comment entirely, I re-read all the posts and not once did I read where he states that the marshall forum holds the responsibility for a shooting in a school. If you have an issue with him that's fine, but using big words to accomplish your own agenda is frankly, kinda weird. His comments that you've read and clearly misunderstood are what we call 'Metaphorically Speaking'.
> 
> Look it up, it may help to ease some of that pain kiddo.
> 
> And stop stirring the damned pot, I was enjoying reading everyones posts on this issue until you started trolling it, get off the fucking bongs man



Off the bongs lol? - oh jeeze not a legalization debate.. 

I have no issue with Soul, never will.. and will never have any 'issues' with anyone here... not even you! You're a patronizing and condescending prick though.. 

I'm too laid back and carefree for all that shit man! 

My own agenda? - I don't even know if I have one? 

I standby my interpretation. It seemed he was annoyed with everyone here and it was no surprised to him massacres happen.. I think his notion was about our fears of some sort. 

I don't call it trolling.. I just call it shooting shit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex, how did you find my youtube video on this subject?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex said:


> Ok, before we let yet another issue divide us, let's inject a little levity by letting this chick make the laws, and whatnot.
> 
> Connecticut Massacre: My Thoughts On Connecticut Massacre: 20 kids killed in school shooting in US ! - YouTube
> 
> Yeah honey, you're sooo right, now show some more cleavage, or whatever.



 

Now she is a troll.


----------



## Adwex

Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:


----------



## blackone

crisis, avoided


----------



## blackone

Adwex said:


> Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:



why does that one girl get a bigger image, was she somehow more important?

I know that sounds like a strange comment to make, but I thought I may have missed something


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> why does that one girl get a bigger image, was she somehow more important?
> 
> I know that sounds like a strange comment to make, but I thought I may have missed something



I immediately thought the same thing. Uneven number? [15] maybe a random choice to make the picture even up as a collage.


----------



## Adwex

It's unthinkable that these people were killed.


----------



## Adwex

The Principal, the school Psychologist, and the young teacher who hid her kids in the closet.

Apparently, Victoria Soto lied to the gunman that the kids were in the gymnasium, then she was shot.


----------



## cowsgomoo

ok guys, have you come to an agreement on this yet? 

some random interjections... I'm English, and it seems obvious to me that the US involvement won the war for the allies (back in the days when 'allied forces' actually did mean the forces of more than one country)... Western Europe owes a massive debt of gratitude to the USA for that

however, it also goes without saying that the reward to the US for doing that has been equally massive... the global power that the US has been able to project & accumulate over the last 60 or so years, sprung from that victory... you made a great sacrifice, and you reaped huge rewards... Fine by me

I suppose this is connected to the firearms issue in this sense... the history of 'projection of firepower' for the benefit of the nation and the individual is something that a lot of other nations just don't share... Either we don't have that in our history, or it was so long ago, or so traumatic that we prefer to forget about it... You guys on the other hand, have a lot of history/mythology where firearms were a force for good, for freedom, for emancipation (in the general sense)... it's been (and continues to be) a safeguard of American wealth and power - which you all benefit hugely from. Not surprising many of you love them so much. Fine by me.

It'd be interesting to see what US citizens feel about firearms 150 years from now (assuming the American 'empire' (for the want of a better term)) goes the same way as all the others, and a bit of hubris is introduced into the equation... I think maybe the British distaste for firearms is tied up in the fact that any glory they represent is long in the past

I mean this all with the greatest respect to all...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

They all seem such nice children too - big smiles and affectionate faces. I really feel a great sadness for their parents and everyone involved.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex said:


> The Principal, the school Psychologist, and the young teacher who hid her kids in the closet.
> 
> Apparently, Victoria Soto told the gunman that the kids were in the gymnasium, then she was shot.



I read about the teacher that hid the children in the closest - heartbreaking. I actually consider her a hero. I have so much respect for that teacher.


----------



## Adwex

Another teacher hid with her kids in the small bathroom, but the gunman passed over that classroom.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TX8V_ZWwgb4]Connecticut Shooting: Sandy Hook Elementary Teacher Kaitlin Roig Protected Her Students - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Adwex

Teacher, Lauren Rousseau


----------



## Marshall Mann

It was reported that the Principal was killed trying to overtake the gunman.


----------



## Söulcaster

Adwex said:


> Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:



That's heart breaking stuff right there....


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Adwex said:


> Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:





RIP .... everyone of these children !!


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

As a parent myself , it's hard to look at this pic ....


----------



## Marshall Mann

Adwex said:


> Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:



Thanks for bringing this back on course Ad.


----------



## Adwex

Can you imagine, those kids were fucking SHOT...multiple times...at close range...with an assault rifle.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Adwex said:


> Can you imagine, those kids were fucking SHOT...multiple times...at close range.



No, I cant. Not at all. 

You cant make sense of a senseless act. It's natural to want to rationalize it, to put a reason and blame to the situation. But it's not possible. It defies reasoning.


----------



## Adwex




----------



## Feeling Supersonic

It's one of the mad things ever, the combination of guns, children at school... the most defenseless of all society and the most happy and carefree... 

Senseless, needless, meaningless, pointless... it's just a void.


----------



## Username2

Lot of people have asked what now becomes of these children. I have heard some pretty whacked out explanations too. 

They were innocent. These young children are now in a place the human mind is incapable of imagining. It is not the end for them. 

Babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices. 

Infant baptism, although it shows a commitment from the parent, is neither required nor efficacious in obtaining salvation for little ones. The salvation of babies and children is a gift of God, based upon His mercy and grace.

Flame me for my "God Post" if you wish. I just thought it might bring comfort to some of you.


----------



## Adwex

nuke said:


> Lot of people have asked what now becomes of these children. I have heard some pretty whacked out explanations too.
> 
> They were innocent. These young children are now in a place the human mind is incapable of imagining. It is not the end for them.
> 
> Babies and young children who die go to heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.
> 
> Infant baptism, although it shows a commitment from the parent, is neither required nor efficacious in obtaining salvation for little ones. The salvation of babies and children is a gift of God, based upon His mercy and grace.
> 
> Flame me for my "God Post" if you wish. I just thought it might bring comfort to some of you.



I won't flame you, now's not the time, and this is not the thread.


----------



## JayCM800

JayCM800 said:


> WTF is this Feeling Supersonic live chat now?? Lay off! You don't have to answer to everyone's replies!
> 
> All i see is your ugly avatar all over the place now."


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> This is a Carbine bushmaster..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the guns used to kill all the children...



This is why one needs to weed themself around the BS of the media. This yahoo article says the AR-15 was the primary weapon yet the video attached to the article says the rifle was left in the car.
Rifle in Conn. massacre similar to DC sniper - Yahoo! News

But misinformation doesn't matter to many in the media, some of them have a agenda and planting wrong information helps seed the idea of how horrible the rifle is. Even when it wasn't used (supposedly) I say supposedly because so much is being posted in the media without getting facts straight.

*Edit* I searched around and it seems several sites state the medical examiner stated the rifle was the primary weapon.


----------



## Micky

Multi-round shotgun was left in the car.


----------



## V-man

Micky said:


> Multi-round shotgun was left in the car.



If the excessively large automobiles in the US were banned in favor of smart cars and mopeds, this senseless tragedy would have been avoided. If only we could ban high capacity cargo vehicles for the children.


----------



## Adwex

V-man said:


> If the excessively large automobiles in the US were banned in favor of smart cars and mopeds, this senseless tragedy would have been avoided. If only we could ban high capacity cargo vehicles for the children.



Spare us the sarcasm.


----------



## V-man

Adwex said:


> Spare us the sarcasm.



About 8 pages late, there.


----------



## Marshall Mann

V-man said:


> If the excessively large automobiles in the US were banned in favor of smart cars and mopeds, this senseless tragedy would have been avoided. If only we could ban high capacity cargo vehicles for the children.



I think it's important to keep this about the kids, brave few that fought to protect them and their families. But it's inevitable that this will come back to gun control.

Banning assault rifles would do little to prevent this. If anyone remembers, we banned, alcohol, heroine, cocaine and pot as well at one point or another. That didn't work either. He stole these weapons, he was not the registered owner. Banning them would only mean he would have had to look underground for them. 

There was an article here in a local paper recently about how easy it was to purchase a hand gun on the street. It took the author less than 4 hours to buy a stolen gun. Banning guns or "assault rifles" will only keep law abiding citizens from owning them. It will do little or nothing to prevent the illegal ownership of them.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

LKrevival said:


> This is why one needs to weed themself around the BS of the media. This yahoo article says the AR-15 was the primary weapon yet the video attached to the article says the rifle was left in the car.
> Rifle in Conn. massacre similar to DC sniper - Yahoo! News
> 
> But misinformation doesn't matter to many in the media, some of them have a agenda and planting wrong information helps seed the idea of how horrible the rifle is. Even when it wasn't used (supposedly) I say supposedly because so much is being posted in the media without getting facts straight.
> 
> *Edit* I searched around and it seems several sites state the medical examiner stated the rifle was the primary weapon.



Apparently, if you have any other thoughts (and express them) than those with which you are presented from "official sources", you might find yourself on the wrong side of a federal prosecution (yes, federal). Point being? Don't believe a f'ing word the "official sources" say ... 

Connecticut Police Spokesman Newtown Will Prosecute Independant Journalist Whistleblowers - YouTube


Here's a cut / paste job from one of the comments on youtube ... couldn't have said it better myself: 

"JFK, MLK, RFK, Wellstone, Nancy Shafer, Pat Tillman, USS Liberty, Iran Contra, Mena/CIA coke smuggling, Waco, OKC, Columbine, 9/11, 7/7, underwear bomber, shoe bomber, Ft. Hood, Giffords, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Benghazi, now Newtown... I don't think we've been told the truth about ANY of these issues. We are fucked because people believe every story that the MSM parrots to them."


----------



## blackone

JayCM800 said:


>



did you just congratulate yourself?


----------



## SonVolt

I realized something today, 99% of the media doesn't understand the assault weapons ban did not ban AR-15 style semi automatic weapons. It banned a specific combination of features in a single firearm. Also, Rugar and others make semi-auto .223 rifles that don't fall under the ban because they look like traditional wood stocked rifles. The "assault weapons ban" was a war on scary looking guns, nothing more.


----------



## V-man

SonVolt said:


> I realized something today, 99% of the media doesn't understand the assault weapons ban did not ban AR-15 style semi automatic weapons. It banned a specific combination of features in a single firearm. Also, Rugar and others make semi-auto .223 rifles that don't fall under the ban because they look like traditional wood stocked rifles. The "assault weapons ban" was a war on scary looking guns, nothing more.



Back in the day we called them the "evil features". The whole thing was abysmally retarded. You could have a Ruger Mini 14 with a walnut stock and a bull barrel, which was perfectly legal, but if it had a fiberglass stock that swivelled and there was a flash suppressor on the barrel, it was illegal. The caliber, lethality, and rate of fire was identical between both models.

In addition to that, so-called assault weapons were used IIRC in approximately 4% of firearms crimes before the ban, and they accounted for 4% of firearms crimes after the ban, showing the ban had zero affect on the frequency of use. The FBI statitistics suggested that the number was actually 1 out of 5, but what those spouting this statistic missed (or ignored) was that the FBI statistic lumped in ALL longarms, including hunting and sporting rifles and shotguns.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Marshall Mann said:


> I think it's important to keep this about the kids, brave few that fought to protect them and their families. But it's inevitable that this will come back to gun control.
> 
> Banning assault rifles would do little to prevent this. If anyone remembers, we banned, alcohol, heroine, cocaine and pot as well at one point or another. That didn't work either. He stole these weapons, he was not the registered owner. Banning them would only mean he would have had to look underground for them.
> 
> There was an article here in a local paper recently about how easy it was to purchase a hand gun on the street. It took the author less than 4 hours to buy a stolen gun. Banning guns or "assault rifles" will only keep law abiding citizens from owning them. It will do little or nothing to prevent the illegal ownership of them.





MM is right on this ..... take it from the crazy Canadian who unfortunately watches you Americans butcher yourselves with guns every year to the point of witch you lead the world in gun related deaths by alot ...... Gun control was not a major factor in this tragedy !!!

This is a clear cut case where a mentally unstable human , snapped , and carried out this unthinkable act on innocent women & children !! 

Have you noticed that we have not heard one word from any of the leaders in the Metal Health fields on CNN or other news outfits , IMO Metal Health should be talked about before Gun Control in this case ....

People who are mentally stable do not commit such acts , thus we don't need to worry about them . The gun laws do need to be amended no question ,but would it have ( Keyword here ) PREVENTED this from happening ? I don't think so ..... and it pain's me to say that , i wish we could all come up with an answer that could have changed the out come of that morning , but what's done is done.


----------



## clel miller

anitoli said:


> You need to clarify that. If its a UNIVERSAL RIGHT, why is the US the only country that "gives" that right to its citizens almost without question?
> No where else does this.



Depends what you mean by "right".
YOU have the "right" to:
Buy a gun.
Buy and drive a car.
Drink booze.
Have sex.
Smoke pot.
Take narcotics.
Etc etc etc.
Yeah you have a "right" to do all that. But there are LAWS that govern those "rights". NOBODY can walk into a gun store and blindly buy a gun from a retailer that obeys our MANY gun laws.
best


----------



## Nudge68

I have read and re-read all the posts. Question - Is it reasonable to state -

1. Guns are out there. Lot and lots of guns. There's no getting them back. No point trying. Bad people will do bad things with guns or with any other weapon.
2. The State, authorities, (whatever sanctioned institution, "responsible entity") cannot protect or support its citizens, students, employees, children, patients, "charges" (etc) to the extent necessary that they feel confident with to deal with point 1.
3. Some people choose to protect themselves with guns or other means because of point 2.
4. Controlling guns through law and other controls will not address point 1.

This is what I've synthesised so far. My thanks for sharing your views.

Again, my thoughts are with the affected. Blessings.

Cheers,

Matt


----------



## Micky

Personally I think the focus on guns is a little misguided.

Sure the shooter used a gun as a weapon of mass destruction, and I guess because he wasn't smart enough to use something else it was the method of choice. Maybe he didn't have access to anything else.

But let's not forget the other problems here, like that of increased need for more/better security as well as the need for more/better mental health care.

I know it is difficult to identify those in need of some help, maybe that is an education issue where people need to be better trained to notice the problems people have.\

But to increase or improve security in our schools is an easy fix, problem is it costs money. And because government (state and federal) have stripped school budgets down to the bone there isn't much left. Think about that the next time you vote against a school budget...


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Nudge68 said:


> I have read and re-read all the posts. Question - Is it reasonable to state -
> 
> 1. Guns are out there. Lot and lots of guns. There's no getting them back. No point trying. Bad people will do bad things with guns or with any other weapon.
> 2. The State, authorities, (whatever sanctioned institution, "responsible entity") cannot protect or support its citizens, students, employees, children, patients, "charges" (etc) to the extent necessary that they feel confident with to deal with point 1.
> 3. Some people choose to protect themselves with guns or other means because of point 2.
> 4. Controlling guns through law and other controls will not address point 1.
> 
> This is what I've synthesised so far. My thanks for sharing your views.
> 
> Again, my thoughts are with the affected. Blessings.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Matt



No, because you're leaving out the 2nd Amendment (and the notion of constitutional rights) ... and the most important thing to remember about our Constitutional rights is that they do not come from government, but rather, from our Creator. The reason it's important to understand this distinction is because something granted / given to you by the government, can also be taken away by the government ... on the other hand, something granted to you by your Creator, cannot be taken away by the government. Our Constitutional rights are not not rights that the government gives us ... they are rights that God gives us ... and the government has to keep their hands off (it's our way of telling them "do not cross this line - or else!").


----------



## blues_n_cues

I've never voted AGAINST anything for school budgets. I'd like to know where all that lottery money goes when they promised that was supposed to be for schools but always seems to get diverted elsewhere...


----------



## Nudge68

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, because you're leaving out the 2nd Amendment (and the notion of constitutional rights) ...



Is this correct reference?

_A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._

cheers,

Matt.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Nudge68 said:


> Is this correct reference?
> 
> _A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Matt.



In what way?


----------



## Heavy Metal

anitoli said:


> Exactly. The burden falls back onto society. Are we willing to keep going down this same road or find a better solution to the mental health dilemma? Are we willing to allow more of our kids to be slaughterd or are we willing to cough up a little more coin to find a more workable solution?
> 
> Nobody wants to care for the mentally ill. This needs to change. Throwing them out on the street isnt working..........



Sadly more and more states are cutting funding for Mental Health centers... they expect results, but it's hard to provide services when you have no resources.


----------



## Nudge68

crossroadsnyc said:


> In what way?



The correct text for the 2nd Amendment.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Nudge68 said:


> The correct text for the 2nd Amendment.



Oh, yes. Sorry!


----------



## Micky

Heavy Metal said:


> Sadly more and more states are cutting funding for Mental Health centers... they expect results, but it's hard to provide services when you have no resources.



Same way for school funding.
They say we don't need this and don't need that, until it comes time to ask 'Why didn't we do this or why didn't we do that?'

Day after day I see teachers doing this extra thing or that extra thing. Without any extra pay, without any extra funding. Where does it come from? Their own pockets. To say that schools are doing the best they can is wrong. Schools are doing MORE than they are expected to do, they are giving 110% all the time.

If you think teachers and staff earn too much you are sadly mistaken.

The costs are being passed on to schools by insurance companies, greedy energy providers and many other companies who feel schools are some sort of cash-cow ripe for the picking. This isn't even taking into consideration the bid process where the lowest bidder generally gets the contract for stuff, and guess what? You generally get what you pay for.

I just think the 'gun' discussion is invalid here when there are so many other things that CAN be done that are generally ignored.

Don't even get me started on mental health...


----------



## Heavy Metal

Micky said:


> Same way for school funding.
> They say we don't need this and don't need that, until it comes time to ask 'Why didn't we do this or why didn't we do that?'
> 
> Day after day I see teachers doing this extra thing or that extra thing. Without any extra pay, without any extra funding. Where does it come from? Their own pockets. To say that schools are doing the best they can is wrong. Schools are doing MORE than they are expected to do, they are giving 110% all the time.
> 
> If you think teachers and staff earn too much you are sadly mistaken.
> 
> The costs are being passed on to schools by insurance companies, greedy energy providers and many other companies who feel schools are some sort of cash-cow ripe for the picking. This isn't even taking into consideration the bid process where the lowest bidder generally gets the contract for stuff, and guess what? You generally get what you pay for.
> 
> I just think the 'gun' discussion is invalid here when there are so many other things that CAN be done that are generally ignored.
> 
> Don't even get me started on mental health...



I hear you, most of my family are educators and I'm the CEO of a mental health and substance abuse facility and I deal with budget cuts on a regular basis, and I'm told to continue to provide the best possible services even though I can't hire staff to deal with the constant influx of people needing and wanting our services. It's amazing how these law makers think! No wonder our society is falling behind the rest of the world.


----------



## scat7s

> to the point of witch you (US) lead the world in gun related deaths by alot ....



ummm, no.

common fallacy. nothing more than an assumption.


----------



## clel miller

Micky said:


> Personally I think the focus on guns is a little misguided.
> 
> Sure the shooter used a gun as a weapon of mass destruction, and I guess because he wasn't smart enough to use something else it was the method of choice. Maybe he didn't have access to anything else.
> 
> But let's not forget the other problems here, like that of increased need for more/better security as well as the need for more/better mental health care.
> 
> I know it is difficult to identify those in need of some help, maybe that is an education issue where people need to be better trained to notice the problems people have.\
> 
> But to increase or improve security in our schools is an easy fix, problem is it costs money. And because government (state and federal) have stripped school budgets down to the bone there isn't much left. Think about that the next time you vote against a school budget...


Not sure how far we can push "politics" on the forum. TGP sends the Nazis to your house if you just utter the word.
Anyway.....
you are absolutely correct. The USA has PLENTY of money. Just depends what "we" want to spend it on.
best


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> ummm, no.
> 
> common fallacy. nothing more than an assumption.



You sure about that? If we are talking totals, he may be right. If we are talking rates per population then it's a different story....


----------



## Username2

crossroadsnyc said:


> In what way?



In any way.


----------



## Username2

blues_n_cues said:


> I've never voted AGAINST anything for school budgets. I'd like to know where all that lottery money goes when they promised that was supposed to be for schools but always seems to get diverted elsewhere...




Government always tells us its for the "children", safety, the sick, the poor, or what ever else is tested to pull the heartstrings of the dumbass (which is 53% of Americans). They rob us blind then want more taxes.... make no mistake there will be something in the form of taxes or more regulation as a result of this tragedy. It won't stop anything. 

Go look at all the PORK in the bill passed for Sandy relief.... sick shit.


----------



## scat7s

Söulcaster said:


> You sure about that? If we are talking totals, he may be right. If we are talking rates per population then it's a different story....


 
of course im talking per capita, any other measure is simply irrelevent in this context.


----------



## scat7s

clel miller said:


> Not sure how far we can push "politics" on the forum. TGP sends the Nazis to your house if you just utter the word.
> Anyway.....
> you are absolutely correct. The USA has PLENTY of money. Just depends what "we" want to spend it on.
> best


 
what we want to spend it on is also irrelevent. 

what it has been decided for us that it is spent on, is WAR. 

and in anticipation of that end, we train our children to become asassins and shooters, and drone operators via video games. 
anitolli brought up an interesting statistic....regarding vietnam. after 6mos in theater, GI's had a better chance of survival. 

the job of think tanks like DARPA is to take that information, and come up with creative ways to keep our soldiers alive in combat. 

what better way then to train them from the age of single digits? tell me a better way? 

now, you inject an unstable personality into that mix, with all of the other degradation of society in the west, and the general devaluation of human life, directly or indirectly expressed from any number of sources in ones life, and you have a recipe for disaster.

while 99.9% of a given population can handle this exposure without snapping, all it takes is a .1% to create chaos for everyone. 

you cant have it both ways. either we are a warrior state, and we deal with the consequences of it, or we modify the way we operate in the macrocosm, and eventually, you can retrain the microcosm.

but with the full knowledge, that there are never any guarantees...


----------



## clel miller

blues_n_cues said:


> I've never voted AGAINST anything for school budgets. I'd like to know where all that lottery money goes when they promised that was supposed to be for schools but always seems to get diverted elsewhere...



In California, the BIG campaign was that..... "The Schools WIN Too"
What REALLY happened was that the State Legislature used the Lottery as a budget leverage shell game.
The money that The Lottery brought in was subtracted from the school budget.
YES the money went to the schools. But NO, there was no giant surplus (obviously) that benefited a single school anywhere in the state. That is how corporate politics work. Government does not tell business what to do. Business tells the government what to do.
People need to decide what side they are on.
best


----------



## Username2

The media continues to be in full overdrive and exploitation. Here are just some of the headlines today.

*Shooting Doesn't Deter Huge Turnout At Gun Show; More Crowded 
Why should it. Because someone is evil and sick doesn't mean you cannot go to a gun show. I guess its now politically incorrect to go to a gun show.


FLASHBACK HOLDER: 'We need to brainwash people to think
 differently about guns'...
This is our Attorney General, his is job is to uphold the law. Of course in his mind its only the laws that agree with his agenda. 

Lanza mom believed world was on edge of collapse...
It is

'She was having trouble reaching him'...
No shit

Tragedy puts mental health in spotlight...
Mental Health has been ignored far to long.

Dems go for guns...
Who would have thought. Thing is they go for them not to protect you but to protect them from you. Tyranny will rule the day if they are successful

Obama: 'We will have to change'...
STFU

Progressives Plan March on NRA...
Progressives... nice a word for Constitution haters

St. Louis Police Chief Wants To Arm School Personnel...
If done right the idea has merit. 

HIGH ALERT: Stuffed animal forces school lockdowns in Florida...
Freak out

Report of man carrying rifle prompts panic...
Freak out

Umbrella In Student's School Bag Mistaken For Rifle Leads To Lockdown...* 
Freak out


----------



## clel miller

nuke said:


> Government always tells us its for the "children", safety, the sick, the poor, or what ever else is tested to pull the heartstrings of the dumbass (which is 53% of Americans). They rob us blind then want more taxes.... make no mistake there will be something in the form of taxes or more regulation as a result of this tragedy. It won't stop anything.
> 
> Go look at all the PORK in the bill passed for Sandy relief.... sick shit.



Its refreshing to see "progressive" members.
I was just banned from another forum for uttering 0.01% of what you have printed here.
I will just quit while I am ahead.
Carry On


----------



## Username2

[FONT=ARIAL,VERDANA,HELVETICA][SIZE=+7]Never let a tragedy go to waste they say*

Rahm Emanuel calls for nationwide 'assault weapons' ban...
*How about enforce the laws*


REPORT: NBCNEWS correspondent Richard Engel missing in Syria...
*Propaganda can come at a price.*

CNN anchor: 'We need to get guns and bullets and automatic weapons off streets'...
*Wait, I thought the media was objective and did not have the same agenda our leaders do
[/SIZE]*
MSNBC's Schultz: 'Confiscation'...
*The band communist is rehearsing *
*[/FONT]


----------



## brp

clel miller said:


> Its refreshing to see "progressive" members.




lulz


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Let's go easy on the wall of text / links posts ... I'd like to see this remain a friendly discussion, rather than have people feel like they're being bludgeoned over the head w/information overload.


----------



## Alt Freak

brp said:


> lulz


 Perfect!


----------



## 4STICKS

damn, brp. That's the first time I've laughed in 2 days. Thanks!


----------



## JayCM800

blackone said:


> did you just congratulate yourself?


 The "beer" was for my buddy Feeling Supersonic...

Here's one for you so you leave me alone


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> of course im talking per capita, any other measure is simply irrelevent in this context.



That's fair enough but, it doesn't discount the fact th USA's rate is 5 to 6 times higher than other western civilized countries.


----------



## Söulcaster

I agree with Nuke in a way, sensationalist media and anti-hero status are what some of these looneys thrive on.....in a way it feeds their egos,,,...

Peace


----------



## scat7s

Söulcaster said:


> That's fair enough but, it doesn't discount the fact th USA's rate is 5 to 6 times higher than other western civilized countries.


 
5 to 6 times per capita? or 5 to 6 times in gross total numbers?


----------



## scat7s

here is a chart, easy to read, with homicide rates per capita. 

this is not gun deaths, but willful murder, with any weapon. 

the US doesnt look so bad to me (comparitavely)...Aus is just one shade lighter, as is most of old europe.

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> here is a chart, easy to read, with homicide rates per capita.
> 
> this is not gun deaths, but willful murder, with any weapon.
> 
> the US doesnt look so bad to me (comparitavely)...Aus is just one shade lighter, as is most of old europe.
> 
> Current Worldwide Homicide/Murder Rate



USA runs about 5.62 gun deaths per 100,000 head of population, other developed countries run around 1 gun death per 100,000 head of population. These figures include manslaughter, suicide, murder and accidental shootings.


----------



## Söulcaster

Gun control in Australia saw a massive decrease in suicides...,,,


----------



## Grunch

Söulcaster said:


> USA runs about 5.62 gun deaths per 100,000 head of population, other developed countries run around 1 gun death per 100,000 head of population. These figures include manslaughter, suicide, murder and accidental shootings.



Yup. The US is melting pot of violence.


----------



## scat7s

lots of interesting stats out there...

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online

america didnt even break the top ten....i wonder if this has anything to do with us owning a lot of guns...?

take away one, add another...its a balancing act isnt it?


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> lots of interesting stats out there...
> 
> The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S. | Mail Online
> 
> america didnt even break the top ten....i wonder if this has anything to do with us owning a lot of guns...?



Violent crime is different than being shot dead,,,...anyway just providing food for thought.

Peace


----------



## scat7s

Söulcaster said:


> Violent crime is different than being shot dead,,,...anyway just providing food for thought.
> 
> Peace


 
indeed it is. 

i also am just providing some counterbalance to your stats. 

take away the guns, the violence doesnt stop. in fact, it appears to increase in many nations. 

however the overall death tolls are lower. 

its a balance. choose your poison.


----------



## Grunch

I'd rather live in a society of purse snatching and muggings than retards getting guns and shooting a place up.


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> indeed it is.
> 
> i also am just providing some counterbalance to your stats.
> 
> take away the guns, the violence doesnt stop. in fact, it appears to increase in many nations.
> 
> however the overall death tolls are lower.
> 
> its a balance. choose your poison.



I'll take a king hit at 2.00am leaving my favorite waterhole than a bullet to the head anyday.

Your right though people are probably less likely to instigate trouble if the fear of getting shot is present...,,,


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> I'd rather live in a society of purse snatching and muggings than retards getting guns and shooting a place up.


 
you are free to do so.


----------



## V-man

Söulcaster said:


> Violent crime is different than being shot dead,,,...anyway just providing food for thought.
> 
> Peace




Different, yes. Quantifiable to make a relevant point? Not really. 


Different =/= better. Some people may prefer homicide over rape, for instance. Being shot to death may not =/= clubbed, stabbed, or beaten to death, but does it make it worse (or even better?).

Moreover, the moment a violent crime ensues, the outcome is determined largely if not completely by the criminal. How is the victim to know that what is happening right then and there is simply going to end at a "stick-up" armed robbery and be over. Armed robberies have turned into murders at a whim... home invasions have turned to rapes.

Others may feel differently, but I prefer living in a place where I have the ability and the choice to defend myself against violent offenders whose true intentions cannot be known rather than living in a place that restricts that ability without accomplishing anything meaningful in terms of crime prevention.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> you are free to do so.



Yup, or instead of playing the if-you-don't-like-it-get-the-fuck-out card, we could fix this broken debacle of a society we live in.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Just watched the 10 o'clock news here and it had a good 15 minutes on the whole Sandy incident and the NRA, Obama etc. 

Obama said, "we must change" -

The guy from the NRA also said they must change... 

Finally! finally! Why wasn't it changed after the Batman killings? - it's really taken a long time to do even the remotest of menial change to the availability of high powered guns. 
I don't wish to stir the pot up again, I'm not going through it all again, I'm just saying, I personally believe it can only be a good thing.. just saying.. pardon the proverb, but don't shoot the messenger..


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Just watched the 10 o'clock news here and it had a good 15 minutes on the whole Sandy incident and the NRA, Obama etc.
> 
> Obama said, "we must change" -



Man, you're lucky. You only got 15 minutes of it. Must be nice.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Fuck the "News"


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Just watched the 10 o'clock news here and it had a good 15 minutes on the whole Sandy incident and the NRA, Obama etc.
> 
> Obama said, "we must change" -
> 
> The guy from the NRA also said they must change...
> 
> Finally! finally! Why wasn't it changed after the Batman killings? - it's really taken a long time to do even the remotest of menial change to the availability of high powered guns.
> I don't wish to stir the pot up again, I'm not going through it all again, I'm just saying, I personally believe it can only be a good thing.. just saying.. pardon the proverb, but don't shoot the messenger..



That's not true. The NRA has stayed silent. You might have heard some NRA member's opinion, but there has been no official statement by the NRA.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Man, you're lucky. You only got 15 minutes of it. Must be nice.



It's a massive thing in the UK - it's unavoidable, it's TV, internet, magazines, newspapers..... it's in 'yo face' 24/7. 

No matter what, I hear about America every single day of my life ... it's a big deal. 

It doesn't bother me much, but some members question why I care to comment on a country that's not mine etc. blah blah blah... well it's because it feels like I live in the US! it's all around me.. all the time.. 

I had a dominos last night, today I was in Starbucks, I watched 'First Blood' Rambo this morning... 

"NOTHING IS OVER!" 

Ya know, it's America... all the time ... every day... 

I love it.. 

I will always find the gun law thing weird though. For Americans that don't like guns and the woes of them, I'm happy for them that they have a president that seems like he'll change something. 

_A change gonna come.. _ no matter how slight or slow in development..


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> That's not true. The NRA has stayed silent. You might have heard some NRA member's opinion, but there has been no official statement by the NRA.



Why was there a news clip of a member of the NRA representing the NRA talking about it?


----------



## Grunch

I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm kind of at a crossroads. I'm torn. One one hand, I can agree with and accept the gun nuts notion that private citizens should be allowed to protect themselves from the crazy fucks out there. No argument from me. I have a few guns for home protection myself. On the other hand, I hate that we're so deep in the hole of crime and violence that reasonable people feel the need to strap up and carry everywhere. I hate that guns are so deeply ingrained in our society that rampaging shooting sprees have become commonplace. I hate that other civilized modern societies can live in relative peace and prosperity while we as a nation bicker and fight and kill eachother over meaningless bullshit. And I really hate the few fringe whackadoos that think everyone everywhere should carry as if that's gonna stop it all. So I don't know where to go with it. I don't wanna be a gun person, and I don't support redneck mentality. I don't wanna be caught with my pants down either. So I think I'll just buy a gun and start killing people that I feel need to be killed.


----------



## Söulcaster

V-man said:


> Others may feel differently, but I prefer living in a place where I have the ability and the choice to defend myself against violent offenders whose true intentions cannot be known rather than living in a place that restricts that ability without accomplishing anything meaningful in terms of crime prevention.



I guess it's hard to imagine living somewhere where your not in fear of violent offenders....,,,,


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Why was there a news clip of a member of the NRA representing the NRA talking about it?



No, there was not. In fact, the big 'news' about the NRA has been their refusal to make a statement on it. What you probably saw was someone who's a member of the NRA who was just offering his opinion ... but I can tell you w/out any question that they were not representing the NRA.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> For Americans that don't like guns and the woes of them, I'm happy for them that they have a president that seems like he'll change something.
> 
> _A change gonna come.. _ no matter how slight or slow in development..



Won't happen. Our president, no matter who it is, or what color, is a powerless puppet of lobbyists and special interest groups. Mess with guns, and he'll have millions of pissed off bible thumping inbred flunkees taking shots at him.


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> Yup, or instead of playing the if-you-don't-like-it-get-the-fuck-out card, we could fix this broken debacle of a society we live in.


 
it wasnt supposed to sound like a GTFO card. i mean, there are states that have stiff gun laws and restrictions. 

theoretically, you should be safer from gun violence in those areas. right?

also wanted to mention, "violent crime" encompasses much more than mugging and purse snatching, and can be horrific beyond your imagination if it happens to you or someone you love.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> it wasnt supposed to sound like a GTFO card. i mean, there are states that have stiff gun laws and restrictions.
> 
> theoretically, you should be safer from gun violence in those areas. right?
> 
> also wanted to mention, "violent crime" encompasses much more than mugging and purse snatching, and can be horrific beyond your imagination if it happens to you or someone you love.



Nowhere in the US is safe from crazy people with easy access to guns.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, there was not. In fact, the big 'news' about the NRA has been their refusal to make a statement on it. What you probably saw was someone who's a member of the NRA who was just offering his opinion ... but I can tell you w/out any question that they were not representing the NRA.



 total mind fook!


----------



## Söulcaster

On another note should the need ever arise the guns in my safe will come in handy....gun control does not equal we are sitting ducks,.,.,


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Won't happen. Our president, no matter who it is, or what color, is a powerless puppet of lobbyists and special interest groups. Mess with guns, and he'll have millions of pissed off bible thumping inbred flunkees taking shots at him.



Well he's said it'll be changed and this NRA member is pushing for change too.. 

I'm optimistic something will happen.... 

Another massacre at a school will happen in the next 12/24 months. God-forbid there isn't, but the stats and history indicates it's likely.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well he's said it'll be changed and this NRA member is pushing for change too..
> 
> I'm optimistic something will happen....
> 
> Another massacre at a school will happen in the next 12/24 months. God-forbid there isn't, but the stats and history indicates it's likely.



Any change will be the wrong change, or so minimal that it doesn't matter. The multi day waiting period and background checks to buy a gun were supposed to be a huge blow to gun violence because they were supposed to take away the impulsive murders. Oops.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Any change will be the wrong change, or so minimal that it doesn't matter. The multi day waiting period and background checks to buy a gun were supposed to be a huge blow to gun violence because they were supposed to take away the impulsive murders. Oops.



So are these killings not going to change anything?

If you could make a change, what would it be?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> So are these killings not going to change anything?
> 
> If you could make a change, what would it be?



These killings will not make meaningful change IMO. And really, what can change? The root of this killing was a deranged young man with easy access to guns. The guns were registered and legally owned. This had nothing to do with black market gun deals, or a habitual criminal. This was a nut that got his hands on guns. So how do you combat that? Round up anyone that's weird and/or take away all guns? Can't happen. Or put an armed assassin with a license to kill in literally every public place in America to protect us? No thanks. So what's left? We just have to stay the way we are. People will have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to carry a gun, and then never be around when one is actually needed.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> These killings will not make meaningful change IMO. And really, what can change? The root of this killing was a deranged young man with easy access to guns. The guns were registered and legally owned. This had nothing to do with black market gun deals, or a habitual criminal. This was a nut that got his hands on guns. So how do you combat that? Round up anyone that's weird and/or take away all guns? Can't happen. Or put an armed assassin with a license to kill in literally every public place in America to protect us? No thanks. So what's left? We just have to stay the way we are. People will have to decide for themselves whether or not they want to carry a gun, and then never be around when one is actually needed.



Maybe some states will be able to become gun free? - or something like that. Like different laws? .. like the legalization of weed... state by state decisions. 

I don't think much will change, but I think there'll be a slight change. 

Like I've said before, I blame the mum that taught her son how to shoot, and had way too many guns than needed for anything in her possession that were wrongly accessible to this guy.. she's to blame. 

She was also stockpiling food and weapons for an economic crash? and told him the world was coming to end too... 

I reckon she's to blame.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> She was also stockpiling food and weapons for an economic crash? and told him the world was coming to end too...
> 
> I reckon she's to blame.


 
Oh... Where'd that come from? 

I see you point. It is valid. 
I'm not excusing the mother, but where did she hear this shit from?

Reminds me of a mother killing her kids when the whole Y2K was going no and some people were freaking out... She killed them so they wouldn't suffer when the time came.

Sure, easy to call them idiots, but we have to keep in mind how deeply brainwashed some people are.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Maybe some states will be able to become gun free? - or something like that. Like different laws? .. like the legalization of weed... state by state decisions.
> 
> I don't think much will change, but I think there'll be a slight change.
> 
> Like I've said before, I blame the mum that taught her son how to shoot, and had way too many guns than needed for anything in her possession that were wrongly accessible to this guy.. she's to blame.
> 
> She was also stockpiling food and weapons for an economic crash? and told him the world was coming to end too...
> 
> I reckon she's to blame.



Gun free doesn't work. It sounds great, and I wish it could be so, but people that want guns will still be able to get them. You're only taking guns away from the law abiding citizens. The dregs will still have them. They're not gonna say" oh okay, here's my guns since they're now illegal". 

The mom could very well be the source of the blame overall. She had the guns, and sheltered her fucked up kid. It was common knowledge in the town that he was off his rocker. He was 20, technically a man, but maybe she didn't get him the psychiatric help or medication he needed to regulate his mania while he was still a minor. Who knows? It's a clusterfuck and it simply can't be easily solved.

If she was one of those stockpiling ammo doomsday fucktards, then that just makes this worse.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> Oh... Where'd that come from?
> 
> I see you point. It is valid.
> I'm not excusing the mother, but where did she hear this shit from?
> 
> Reminds me of a mother killing her kids when the whole Y2K was going no and some people were freaking out... She killed them so they wouldn't suffer when the time came.
> 
> Sure, easy to call them idiots, but we have to keep in mind how deeply brainwashed some people are.



Was in the news on the Daily Mail.. 

For me, she's to blame. I know it was official reporting she taught him how to shoot, and that she was preparing for an economic doom... it's why she had like 4 types of guns with loads of ammo and a stockpile of food. 

She must have left some guns unlocked or insight etc.. told him about her beliefs that society would crumble.. and maybe he had an anxiety attack, a panic attack, hallucinations - who knows what triggered it and why he went to kill children..


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Was in the news on the Daily Mail..
> 
> For me, she's to blame. I know it was official reporting she taught him how to shoot, and that she was preparing for an economic doom... it's why she had like 4 types of guns with loads of ammo and a stockpile of food.
> 
> She must have left some guns unlocked or insight etc.. told him about her beliefs that society would crumble.. and maybe he had an anxiety attack, a panic attack, hallucinations - who knows what triggered it and why he went to kill children..



I've heard that they were well-off and weren't in any kind of economic crisis. If she snapped and turned into one of those end-of-world losers, then we need to start looking into those kinds of fuckwits.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Gun free doesn't work. It sounds great, and I wish it could be so, but people that want guns will still be able to get them. You're only taking guns away from the law abiding citizens. The dregs will still have them. They're not gonna say" oh okay, here's my guns since they're now illegal".
> 
> The mom could very well be the source of the blame overall. She had the guns, and sheltered her fucked up kid. It was common knowledge in the town that he was off his rocker. He was 20, technically a man, but maybe she didn't get him the psychiatric help or medication he needed to regulate his mania while he was still a minor. Who knows? It's a clusterfuck and it simply can't be easily solved.



Yep! clusterfuck indeed. So many things to talk about. 
I still lodge most of the blame upon her. She's meant to be a professional and responsible parent that keeps guns away from him... 

I think she might have confused him. 

People will always kill each other, but guns is a real way that makes it possible for anybody to do a lot of killing in a short period of time in a public space. 

If he was only armed with a knife, the damage would have been far inferior.

Guns are designed to offer maximum devastation with the greatest accuracy, with the easiest of ways of holding then, pulling the trigger and low shock for decent sustained firing ... modern weapons


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I've heard that they were well-off and weren't in any kind of economic crisis. If she snapped and turned into one of those end-of-world losers, then we need to start looking into those kinds of fuckwits.



No no no, that the US was going to collapse as a civilization due to economic doom. 

She was a doomsday prepper according to the Daily Mail.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

'She would get very upset that he wouldn’t let her hug him:' Dysfunctional relationship of Sandy Hook gunman and his mother
Nancy Lanza portrayed as 'survivalist' who stockpiled food, water and guns
She was shot four times in the head, possibly as she slept, by her son
Collection of guns included handguns, assault rifle and two hunting rifles
Son Adam was reclusive, spending most of his time in adjoining bedrooms
Friend: Mrs Lanza 'would get very upset that he wouldn’t let her hug him'
Moved to Sandy Hook in around 1998 but Mrs Lanza and husband divorced
Funerals for the young victims held today
All schools in Ridgefield, Connecticut, were in lockdown today because of a suspicious person who might be armed, police said


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_Friends and family portrayed Adam Lanza’s mother Nancy as a paranoid ‘survivalist’ who believed the world was on the verge of violent, economic collapse.
_


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Yep! clusterfuck indeed. So many things to talk about.
> I still lodge most of the blame upon her. She's meant to be a professional and responsible parent that keeps guns away from him...
> 
> I think she might have confused him.
> 
> People will always kill each other, but guns is a real way that makes it possible for anybody to do a lot of killing in a short period of time in a public space.
> 
> If he was only armed with a knife, the damage would have been far inferior.
> 
> Guns are designed to offer maximum devastation with the greatest accuracy, with the easiest of ways of holding then, pulling the trigger and low shock for decent sustained firing ... modern weapons



I agree 100%. I said before, these things don't happen in america with knives or clubs. Guns also de-personalize the attack. To stab or club someone to death, you gotta be right up on them. That changes things. A gun allows you to do it with no personal contact whatsoever.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Why the fuck is she talking about "Doomsday"? Where did that shit come from?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> No no no, that the US was going to collapse as a civilization due to economic doom.
> 
> She was a doomsday prepper according to the Daily Mail.



I've ALWAYS been suspicious of those fuckers. If we're gonna turn into a paranoid fascist state under martial law, let's start with rounding up the doomsdayers. Those people suck. Total nutjobs. I wouldn't mind a little doomsdayer genocide.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I agree 100%. I said before, these things don't happen in america with knives or clubs. Guns also de-personalize the attack. To stab or club someone to death, you gotta be right up on them. That changes things. A gun allows you to do it with no personal contact whatsoever.



Yep. It means anyone can become a lethal weapon. Even a skinny little 20 year runt like this dude... no skill in reloading, no skill in killing, ... just easy to mass murder.. 

Yeah pulling a trigger from a distance.. very easy and cold.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Nancy Lanza: Did paranoid, gun-crazed mother trigger Sandy Hook, Connecticut killing spree? | Mail Online

Maybe it's all bullshit and made up?


----------



## Grunch

This will all go away soon with the next tragedy. One-upsmanship is the name of the game.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.
_

Silly naive woman.


----------



## Grunch

Nothing spells family fun in america like a trip to the gun range.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Nothing spells family fun in america like a trip to the gun range.



My sentiments exactly.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> My sentiments exactly.



I played a gig at a gun range once. It was a "support the troops" thing. Big festival. I'm playing my set, and behind me they're skeet shooting. It was surreal.....and retarded.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I played a gig at a gun range once. It was a "support the troops" thing. Big festival. I'm playing my set, and behind me they're skeet shooting. It was surreal.....and retarded.



Wow. 

Go on youtube, you can watch children firing shot-guns and all sorts... firing UZIs even. 

yeah it's fun and possibly funny.... but bugger me, it's so irresponsible.


----------



## Grunch

Git er dun!


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Any change will be the wrong change, or so minimal that it doesn't matter. The multi day waiting period and background checks to buy a gun were supposed to be a huge blow to gun violence because they were supposed to take away the impulsive murders. Oops.



Yes, the waiting period idea was a brilliant idea.

As we can all be sure "extensive analysis" and "psycological study" was performed at length in drafting this masterwork.

After all, everybody knows now that when someone is in an impulsive murderous rage, they don't go to the kitchen to grab a knife and stab the significant other... they don't step over to the garage to grab the Louisville slugger on their way to the car to pound abusive brother-in-law's face in for his handiwork.

Evidently, it must be a scientifically researched fact that unstable people on an impulsive, murderous rage head straight for a local gun dealer, plunk down their money and leave the store hell bent on mayhem. EVEN MORE FASCINATING, it seems that such unstable people when confronted with the prospect of having to wait for a firearm for a few days, they mmediately "cool off" and abandon the endeavour alltogether.

In other words, this was moronic (and federally applied, Unconstitutional on the basis of the Second and Tenth Amendments) legislation that applies only to the feel-good ignorance that something is supposedly being done to prevent crime.



- More often than not, the firearms used are not from Federally licensed firearms dealers (Gun stores). 

- Of those who have purchased from a gun store, any of them would have passed a background check (and did). Moreover, many of these imbalanced individuals enacted some sort of planning, showing that "waiting to pass" would have been no deterrance.

- The time period serves as nothing more than a waiting period. No more thorough or better background check ensues. That would also require more resources, and would likely be unconstitutional under the 4th.

- Assuming the checks were beefed up (and withstood scrutiny) then those who wouldn't qualify would (and have) obtain(ed) the firearms through other channels.

- Given the retarded legal methodology and deplorable state of mental health treatment in this country there is zero guarantee that beefed up checks would screen out anybody from the process




Meanwhile this comes with real consequences.

Ever have a woman close to you with a psychotic ex? There is nothing the law can do until he is at the door and then cops are minutes away when seconds count.


----------



## AdamR

Grunch said:


> Gun free doesn't work. It sounds great, and I wish it could be so, but people that want guns will still be able to get them. You're only taking guns away from the law abiding citizens. The dregs will still have them. They're not gonna say" oh okay, here's my guns since they're now illegal".



I totally agree. plus how do you trace an illegal gun ? At least if they are bought legally you can find out were they came from.


----------



## Username2

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, there was not. In fact, the big 'news' about the NRA has been their refusal to make a statement on it. What you probably saw was someone who's a member of the NRA who was just offering his opinion ... but I can tell you w/out any question that they were not representing the NRA.



The NRA is smart not to take the bait here, it is not a gun issue so they should stay out of it. The media want a statement to they can start their shit. Fuck em, I wouldn't give them one either.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> legislation that applies only to the feel-good ignorance that something is supposedly being done to prevent crime.
> .



That's all that ever happens with anything.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Yup. The US is melting pot of violence.



Yes and more so in those areas and cities that have the strictest gun laws.


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Wow.
> 
> Go on youtube, you can watch children firing shot-guns and all sorts... firing UZIs even.
> 
> yeah it's fun and possibly funny.... but bugger me, it's so irresponsible.



Why is that?

You have a child being supervised by an adult on the safe handling and firing of a weapon in an isoloated area. Given the individual child's capacity and maturity level, I would rather (s)he lose the infatuation over the taboo and actually have a working understanding of the rules of firearms safety and safe handling than another group of idiots thinking they are venomous tree frogs ready to leap forth from a hand and kill.

Maybe there may be fewer such incidents and a better adjusted population if more parents spent time with their kids educating them and sharing an interest.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> I'd rather live in a society of purse snatching and muggings than retards getting guns and shooting a place up.



This statement is fucking retarded. 

You think that criminals and crazy fucks don't know how to make bombs, make chemical weapons, or simply burn your house down. The guns are not for the criminals, they are to protect you and your family against them.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Yes and more so in those areas and cities that have the strictest gun laws.



It's less about gun laws and more about simple demographics and population density.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> This statement is fucking retarded.
> 
> You think that criminals and crazy fucks don't know how to make bombs, make chemical weapons, or simply burn your house down. The guns are not for the criminals, they are to protect you and your family against them.



You took it out of context, but that's okay. Think what you want, just don't shoot me with your rosary beads.


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> It's less about gun laws and more about simple demographics and population density.


 

too many rats in the same cage...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Why is that?
> 
> You have a child being supervised by an adult on the safe handling and firing of a weapon in an isoloated area. Given the individual child's capacity and maturity level, I would rather (s)he lose the infatuation over the taboo and actually have a working understanding of the rules of firearms safety and safe handling than another group of idiots thinking they are venomous tree frogs ready to leap forth from a hand and kill.
> 
> Maybe there may be fewer such incidents and a better adjusted population if more parents spent time with their kids educating them and sharing an interest.



Dude, it's just weird. Kids + guns....  :Ohno:


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> too many rats in the same cage...



_Despite all my rage I'm still just a rat in a cage! _


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> too many rats in the same cage...



Of course bubba joe out in bumfuck kansas sitting on 2500 acres of nothing with his arsenal of guns isn't gonna have the same crime problems as some dude in NYC.


----------



## diesect20022000

.


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude, it's just weird. Kids + guns....  :Ohno:


 

it wasnt wierd 50 or 60 years ago and its not weird in rural areas today either. 

dont you think its weird that kids spend 8 hrs a day blowing shit up and shooting people in a simulated warzone on a screen?


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Yup, or instead of playing the if-you-don't-like-it-get-the-fuck-out card, we could fix this broken debacle of a society we live in.



We're in deep shit and it ain't going to be fixed. 

You would need to fix stupid, 53% of the country. Those people are under informed and even if you tell them facts they will not believe you. They are under educated on the laws of our country. They and totally oblivious to their rights and disrespectful of others rights. American history is something that they learned from Sponge Bob, ask them you will see.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> We're in deep shit and it ain't going to be fixed.
> 
> You would need to fix stupid, 53% of the country. Those people are under informed and even if you tell them facts they will not believe you. They are under educated on the laws of our country. They and totally oblivious to their rights and disrespectful of others rights. American history is something that they learned from Sponge Bob, ask them you will see.



I don't disagree, but okay, let's just give everyone a gun. That'll learn em!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> it wasnt wierd 50 or 60 years ago and its not weird in rural areas today either.
> 
> dont you think its weird that kids spend 8 hrs a day blowing shit up and shooting people in a simulated warzone on a screen?



I just think guns are bad mmmm'kay... 

they cause a hell load of grief ... 

I think it's a childish need to want to own a gun.... big bad guv'ment wants to get me.... blah blah..... really? okay...


----------



## Username2

SmokeyDopey said:


> Fuck the "News"



Smokey Dopey gets it right once in awhile. Nailed that one Smokey!!


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I just think guns are bad mmmm'kay...
> 
> they cause a hell load of grief ...
> 
> I think it's a childish need to want to own a gun.... big bad guv'ment wants to get me.... blah blah..... really? okay...



Lol. Yup.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Of course bubba joe out in bumfuck kansas sitting on 2500 acres of nothing with his arsenal of guns isn't gonna have the same crime problems as some dude in NYC.





Ah, the most overused word in print.



Classic definition

*Ar-se-nal*

1. 
a place of storage or a magazine containing arms and military equipment for land or naval service. 

2. 
a government establishment where military equipment or munitions are manufactured. 





Libtard/newscaster definition

*Ar-se-nal*


1.
An individual's possession of 2 or more firearms or more than one box of ammunition.


2.
An individual's possession of a black or green colored centerfire rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine known to the media as a "high capacity bo-nana clip"


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I just think guns are bad mmmm'kay...
> 
> they cause a hell load of grief ...
> 
> I think it's a childish need to want to own a gun.... big bad guv'ment wants to get me.... blah blah..... really? okay...


 
you didnt answer my question. 

isnt it weird that children sit in front of the tube, shooting at things all day? 

whats the fucking difference between a shooting range or a character on a tv screen? 

big bad govt? yeah, my single shot winchester will hold em off...


----------



## Username2

Feeling Supersonic said:


> _Mrs Lanza, 52, was a ‘prepper’ – so called because they are preparing for a breakdown in civilised society – who apparently became obsessed with guns and taught Adam and his older brother, Ryan, how to shoot, even taking them to local ranges.
> _
> 
> Silly naive woman.



Please. Over 80% of all the news in the first few hours of this event was proven out to be bullshit. The news networks were saying "confirmed" when it still turned out to be bullshit. 

You are a smart guy. Understand the media has an agenda here. It is simply a anti gun. Don't believe she was a "prepper" or a Dooms-Dayer just because some twat in the news said so, no bigger liars in the world right now.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Ah, the most overused word in print.
> 
> 
> 
> Classic definition
> 
> *Ar-se-nal*
> 
> 1.
> a place of storage or a magazine containing arms and military equipment for land or naval service.
> 
> 2.
> a government establishment where military equipment or munitions are manufactured.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Libtard/newscaster definition
> 
> *Ar-se-nal*
> 
> 
> 1.
> An individual's possession of 2 or more firearms or more than one box of ammunition.
> 
> 
> 2.
> An individual's possession of a black or green colored centerfire rifle capable of accepting a detachable magazine known to the media as a "high capacity bo-nana clip"



It's just a word. Put the gun down.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> you didnt answer my question.
> 
> isnt it weird that children sit in front of the tube, shooting at things all day?
> 
> whats the fucking difference between a shooting range or a character on a tv screen?
> 
> big bad govt? yeah, my single shot winchester will hold em off...



People want peace....how can peace happen when guns are everywhere?

9,000 murders in the US due to gun crime homicides in 2011. 

Cringeworthy and indefensible statistics.. 

Basically the gun culture is taking aboard total fuckwits, but it can only happen because it's someone's 'right' to own such a death machine..


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> Please. Over 80% of all the news in the first few hours of this event was proven out to be bullshit. The news networks were saying "confirmed" when it still turned out to be bullshit.
> 
> You are a smart guy. Understand the media has an agenda here. It is simply a anti gun. Don't believe she was a "prepper" or a Dooms-Dayer just because some twat in the news said so, no bigger liars in the world right now.



Yeah man, I did openly question whether it was bullshit or not! 

The media does hold some truths though. It's not all bad. The majority is distorted and bent, but some facts are just facts.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Yeah man, I did openly question whether it was bullshit or not!
> 
> The media does hold some truths though. It's not all bad. The majority is distorted and bent, but some facts are just facts.



The media is only bullshit when one fundamentally disagrees with what's being reported. Otherwise it's good journalism.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> People want peace....how can peace happen when guns are everywhere?
> 
> 9,000 murders in the US due to gun crime homicides in 2011.
> 
> Cringeworthy and indefensible statistics..
> 
> Basically the gun culture is taking aboard total fuckwits, but it can only happen because it's someone's 'right' to own such a death machine..


 
I'm not a big guns guy...
But what about all the violence that is (subtly) encouraged? Like one of the things that scat mentioned...

Desensitizing!


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> The media is only bullshit when one fundamentally disagrees with what's being reported. Otherwise it's good journalism.




No media is almost always bullshit. They are not reporting news, they are using the news the push and point of view or agenda. 

The US media is State Ran, meaning it works with the government 24/7, it is one in the same.


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> The media is only bullshit when one fundamentally disagrees with what's being reported. Otherwise it's good journalism.


 
you should get out more...


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> People want peace....



lol no they don't. Where do you get these ideas?
I thought you said you were watching and paying attention


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

In the UK, someone can burgle your house and try and kill you, and if you shoot and kill them, you'll be sentenced to prison for murder.. 

Happens a lot of here, but Cameron changed this a bit. Country mansions getting robbed at night, the owners pull out the old shot guns and blow them away.. 

I mean yeah, if someone was burgling my house I'd happily whip out the Colt 45 and blow him away... 

Protection of my house/family .... 

How's that for being a hypocrite?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> lol no they don't. Where do you get these ideas?
> I thought you said you were watching and paying attention



 

Like Ice T said.. "justice doesn't exist on a stolen land"


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> No media is almost always bullshit. They are not reporting news, they are using the news the push and point of view or agenda.
> 
> The US media is State Ran, meaning it works with the government 24/7, it is one in the same.



I agree. The media is generally a joke. But where do you get your news? Let me guess, you know the only source of responsible journalism? Or better yet, you only read sources that line up with your own viewpoints?


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> People want peace....how can peace happen when guns are everywhere?
> 
> 9,000 murders in the US due to gun crime homicides in 2011.
> 
> Cringeworthy and indefensible statistics..
> 
> Basically the gun culture is taking aboard total fuckwits, but it can only happen because it's someone's 'right' to own such a death machine..


 

people want peace. 

but those who make decisions do not. we've been at war for over a decade straight. all in the name of freedom. and we train our children to be warriors long bfore they are old enough to join the service. 

arent we all familliar with GI's going on shooting sprees from combat trauma? 

this is another in a long long line of political false flag events. take the cheese if your hungry...


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> you should get out more...



No, I'll get shot.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> people want peace.
> 
> but those who make decisions do not. we've been at war for over a decade straight. all in the name of freedom. and we train our children to be warriors long bfore they are old enough to join the service.
> 
> arent we all familliar with GI's going on shooting sprees from combat trauma?
> 
> this is another in a long long line of political false flag events. take the cheese if your hungry...





I personally believe there are a lot of weak excuses for wanting a gun. I find them mostly childish... and it's like guns are their favourites toys, and they won't put them down! 

Last defense against tyranny... really? that sounds like some paranoid bullshit to me.. 

Show's how much faith people have in their government and country lol.. none! 

Seems like you guys are oh so proud with the flag held high when your government bombs somewhere... but when it comes down to it... you don't trust the flag in your own home.. you need a gun .. 

It's confusing to me. 

Unless some Americans just dislike America and are armed for battle with it some time... but that seems retarded.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I personally believe there are a lot of weak excuses for wanting a gun. I find them mostly childish... and it's like guns are their favourites toys, and they won't put them down!
> 
> Last defense against tyranny... really? that sounds like some paranoid bullshit to me..
> 
> Show's how much faith people have in their government and country lol.. none!
> 
> Seems like you guys are oh so proud with the flag held high when your government bombs somewhere... but when it comes down to it... you don't trust the flag in your own home.. you need a gun ..
> 
> It's confusing to me.
> 
> Unless some Americans just dislike America and are armed for battle with it some time... but that seems retarded.



Damn boy, you are on fire today. Well said.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I personally believe there are a lot of weak excuses for wanting a gun. I find them mostly childish... and it's like guns are their favourites toys, and they won't put them down!
> 
> Last defense against tyranny... really? that sounds like some paranoid bullshit to me..
> 
> Show's how much faith people have in their government and country lol.. none!
> 
> Seems like you guys are oh so proud with the flag held high when your government bombs somewhere... but when it comes down to it... you don't trust the flag in your own home.. you need a gun ..
> 
> It's confusing to me.
> 
> Unless some Americans just dislike America and are armed for battle with it some time... but that seems retarded.



I think I know what this is about. You see what's happening in your own country, and you realize that your government has left you powerless to do anything about it ... and much like the kid who had his toy taken away, you want everyone else's toys taken away to level the playing field, right? I've read your rants with respect to your fears of losing the 'English tradition' ... this isn't about guns for you, this is about feeling powerless, isn't it? I'm not saying this to be smug, by the way ... I just think that your position has much more to do w/the fear you feel over your own fate, rather than a concern for people you really show very little respect for anyway.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> I think I know what this is about. You see what's happening in your own country, and you realize that your government has left you powerless to do anything about it ... and much like the kid who had his toy taken away, you want everyone else's toys taken away to level the playing field, right? I've read your rants with respect to your fears of losing the 'English tradition' ... this isn't about guns for you, this is about feeling powerless, isn't it? I'm not saying this to be smug, by the way ... I just think that your position has much more to do w/the fear you feel over your own fate, rather than a concern for people you really show very little respect for anyway.



Meh, it's a total paradox for me dude! 

I'm just asking questions. 

You know what I could be smug about? 

No school shootings in my country sir. 

But I won't.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_got me a revolver, a carbine and loadsa of ammo.. 

if the government come knocking.. I'll win the war with some hand guns and a few semis!
_


----------



## Grunch

America, fuck yeah!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You know what I could be smug about?
> 
> No school shootings in my country sir.
> 
> But I won't.


 

haha, smooth.


----------



## diesect20022000

Grunch said:


> America, fuck yeah!


 comin' to save tha muthufuckin' day yeah!


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Meh, it's a total paradox for me dude!
> 
> I'm just asking questions.
> 
> You know what I could be smug about?
> 
> No school shootings in my country sir.
> 
> But I won't.



Bam!


----------



## scat7s

> Feeling Supersonic said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I personally believe there are a lot of weak excuses for wanting a gun. I find them mostly childish... and it's like guns are their favourites toys, and they won't put them down!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> as a counterbalance to violent criminals. is that a weak excuse? to demand some semblance of a level playing field?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last defense against tyranny... really? that sounds like some paranoid bullshit to me..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> i know, nothing like that ever happens here on earth does it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Show's how much faith people have in their government and country lol.. none!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> thats pretty close to my level of "faith" in govt.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like you guys are oh so proud with the flag held high when your government bombs somewhere... but when it comes down to it... you don't trust the flag in your own home.. you need a gun ..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> doesnt make me proud.
> 
> lets not forget britain is like america's little bitch when it comes to bombing "brown" nations. in fact, in the modern era, this has been your calling card, we just adopted it cuz i guess it makes some people lots of money.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's confusing to me.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> to me as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless some Americans just dislike America and are armed for battle with it some time... but that seems retarded.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> clearly we can all see the charade of modern economics is teetering on the edge of collapse.
> 
> its your choice to ignore it, or not. but its also my choice, isnt it?
Click to expand...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

If you feel sorry for me for being defenseless, I feel sorry for you feeling so paranoid about living in a country whereby your government would harm you in your own home you need guns.. 

and the total byproduct of doing so means members of society in your country that aren't capable of being civilized ruin over people's lives... it means massacres happen. 

I don't need a gun, neither does my neighbor.. no one does ... the 2cd amendment really is a totally ironic thing.. 

The statistics are harrowing.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> clearly we can all see the charade of modern economics is teetering on the edge of collapse.



The mother of the shooter certainly saw that collapse coming...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Here's a hypocritical comment from me.. 

If I lived through the great depression in the US, I'd have felt safer owning a gun for my own protection from further decline. 

Bitten the bullet so to speak..


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> If you feel sorry for me for being defenseless, I feel sorry for you feeling so paranoid about living in a country whereby your government would harm you in your own home you need guns..
> 
> and the total byproduct of doing so means members of society in your country that aren't capable of being civilized ruin over people's lives... it means massacres happen.
> 
> I don't need a gun, neither does my neighbor.. no one does ... the 2cd amendment really is a totally ironic thing..
> 
> The statistics are harrowing.


 
IF...the financial system went into severe cardiac arrest, its not the govt you would need to protect yourself and your family from, its the fuckers that would be roaming the streets, looting, pillaging and generally causing harm and horror.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You know what I could be smug about?
> 
> No school shootings in my country sir.
> 
> But I won't.



Ya, but probably because you're just savvy enough to know that someone would then have to bring up the seemingly epidemic proportion of child abuse statistics in the U.K. am I rite?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> IF...the financial system went into severe cardiac arrest, its not the govt you would need to protect yourself and your family from, its the fuckers that would be roaming the streets, looting, pillaging and generally causing harm and horror.



Like in Mississippi during a natural disaster...

Humans lol! gotta love em.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> IF...the financial system went into severe cardiac arrest, its not the govt you would need to protect yourself and your family from, its the fuckers that would be roaming the streets, looting, pillaging and generally causing harm and horror.



He's in the UK. Worst thing that'll happen there is they bite eachother with their fucked up teeth.


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The mother of the shooter certainly saw that collapse coming...


 
yes, and your trustworthy, and responsible journalists will make sure we ALL know that. 

obviously she was a horrible person, it only stands to reason that anyone who shares any perspectives in any way, is equally as horrible.


----------



## brp

crossroadsnyc said:


> I think I know what this is about. You see what's happening in your own country, and you realize that your government has left you powerless to do anything about it ... and much like the kid who had his toy taken away, you want everyone else's toys taken away to level the playing field, right? I've read your rants with respect to your fears of losing the 'English tradition' ... this isn't about guns for you, this is about feeling powerless, isn't it? I'm not saying this to be smug, by the way ... I just think that your position has much more to do w/the fear you feel over your own fate, rather than a concern for people you really show very little respect for anyway.



Oh snap. Real


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Ya, but probably because you're just savvy enough to know that someone would then have to bring up the seemingly epidemic proportion of child abuse statistics in the U.K. am I rite?





Michael Jackson  

Murder and pedophilia - equally horrific. 

Pedophiles everywhere though, even in le USA.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> He's in the UK. Worst thing that'll happen there is they bite eachother with their fucked up teeth.


----------



## Bloodrock

There are two things in the world that cause violence of any kind.

1. Ego
2. Mental Illness

All wars go in the ego category, these types of shootings are the mental illness obviously. 
Until these psycological issues are somehow miraculously erradicated from all human beings, there will always be voilence.
Our government arms the least educated segment of our population to commit murder in order to satisfy their egotistical war interests. Then its all glorified as heroic everyday in the media, video games, and the like.
And we're really surprised when this shit happens? REALLY????


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> yes, and your trustworthy, and responsible journalists will make sure we ALL know that.
> 
> obviously she was a horrible person, it only stands to reason that anyone who shares any perspectives in any way, is equally as horrible.



yeah but doomsday preppers must be laughed at.... 
and also the economic meltdown guys too..

WAY TOO MUCH paranoia for me man. Yes I live in a system not of my making and I'm not 'free' ... but at least I can sleep at night.. I don't need a 2cd amendment which arms the population with lethal weaponry to use ON EACH OTHER!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Bloodrock said:


> And we're really surprised when this shit happens? REALLY????



Dude, with a 2cd amendment meaning 90 in 100 people in the US own a weapon of war and death [protection lol, from other people with guns]...

Yeah, no surprise...

Just another school massacre.

Mental people exist, so do guns.. whatta cocktail! 
shame the mentally stable need guns too! 

Oh wait?

Mentally retarded folk want guns... and so do the 'mentally sane'? ... 

Wow..


----------



## crossroadsnyc

So, anyway ... why don't we try and bring it back on the topic Adwex brought up? I'm curious as to what you guys think about this from the perspective of a preventative approach w/respect to the medical community. There's been a good argument(s) made about how all of these 'lone wolf' shooters share a similarity of being on prescription medication for mental illness ... so that kind of begs the question - if the root of the problem is at the feet of a behemoth like the medical industry, what are the real chances of connecting the dots for a solution? I mean, with so much money involved in medicine, I'm thinking anything from a federal level is almost impossible.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall forum


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Marshall forum



  

Who is that? - well, take ya pick!


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> yeah but doomsday preppers must be laughed at....
> and also the economic meltdown guys too..
> 
> WAY TOO MUCH paranoia for me man. Yes I live in a system not of my making and I'm not 'free' ... but at least I can sleep at night.. I don't need a 2cd amendment which arms the population with lethal weaponry to use ON EACH OTHER!


 

you call it paranoia and scoff at it. thats fine. your insulated on many levels.

get out and start building your own family, and see how the worm turns...


----------



## blues_n_cues

the cold hard truth is-just like you can't fix stupid,you can't cure crazy..
an Austrian 80 years ago thought he had the answer for mental illness & he was the nuttiest of all..in the end he went out the same way as this last guy.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Marshall forum



No Vs there... just saying.


----------



## V-man

blues_n_cues said:


> the cold hard truth is-just like you can't fix stupid,you can't cure crazy..
> an Austrian 80 years ago thought he had the answer for mental illness & he was the nuttiest of all..in the end he went out the same way as this last guy.



Not to mention, the pharmacological problems we have today come from the last few decades "advances" in solving crazy.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> No Vs there... just saying.



Nope. No vaginas. Shocker.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

blues_n_cues said:


> the cold hard truth is-just like you can't fix stupid,you can't cure crazy..
> an Austrian 80 years ago thought he had the answer for mental illness & he was the nuttiest of all..in the end he went out the same way as this last guy.



I was reading an interesting article earlier where the author (a doctor) was making the argument that there are a lot of parents who do not want to admit that their kid is really sick ... as in psychotic sick. Instead, there is kind of an unspoken agreement with doctors, where a lot of doctors are diagnosing these kids as 'autistic' (or any number of other things), rather than calling it for what it is. As a result, he was saying that we have a lot of kids / young adults walking around who are actually psychotic and need different medication / hospitalization, rather than the treatment (or non-treatment) they are currently getting. Bottom line, he was saying that a lot of this is preventative by just calling it for what it is, and dealing with it head on ... instead, putting up family 'appearances' is taking precedence ... think of it as a really sick way of 'keeping up w/the Jones's'.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> you call it paranoia and scoff at it. thats fine. your insulated on many levels.
> 
> get out and start building your own family, and see how the worm turns...



"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." 
— Gerald R. Ford 

Meh - just enjoying the debate man, like I said, I'm a hypocritical with some of my ideas. I don't care, just trying to understand the discussion more.. 

Although I still stand by the notion that the 2cd Amendment has caused more harm than good.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Can you guys give any good reasons when the 2cd amendment has proven a success? 

When has tyranny ever been averted because of it?


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Can you guys give any good reasons when the 2cd amendment has proven a success?
> 
> When has tyranny ever been averted because of it?



Not to a child who has no grasp on the issue.


----------



## blues_n_cues

crossroadsnyc said:


> I was reading an interesting article earlier where the author (a doctor) was making the argument that there are a lot of parents who do not want to admit that their kid is really sick ... as in psychotic sick. Instead, there is kind of an unspoken agreement with doctors, where a lot of doctors are diagnosing these kids as 'autistic' (or any number of other things), rather than calling it for what it is. As a result, he was saying that we have a lot of kids / young adults walking around who are actually psychotic and need different medication / hospitalization, rather than the treatment (or non-treatment) they are currently getting. Bottom line, he was saying that a lot of this is preventative by just calling it for what it is, and dealing with it head on ... instead, putting up family 'appearances' is taking precedence ... think of it as a really sick way of 'keeping up w/the Jones's'.



Autistic seems to be the flavor of the day. 25-30 years ago it was hyperactive. these guys couldn't diagnose the common cold...but they'll still find you a pill for it.

one of our girls we thought had ADHD so we tried everything in the book. turns out yellow food coloring additives-FD&C #5 turned her batshit crazy.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> Not to a child who has no grasp on the issue.



That's a no then.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Can you guys give any good reasons when the 2cd amendment has proven a success?
> 
> When has tyranny ever been averted because of it?



The supporters will say it works because the gov has never tried to take over. The federal gov is scared of rednecks with handguns and .22 rifles.

The realists will lol at that....


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's a no then.



correct. You will not be convinced or persuaded. Should you go to college (or develop the interest earlier) you may read the works of those thinkers who have shaped the framework of our Constitution and judge for yourself, but nobody here is going to do horse tricks to amuse your passing curiosity on proving a negative.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> The supporters will say it works because the gov has never tried to take over. The federal gov is scared of rednecks with handguns and .22 rifles.
> 
> The realists will lol at that....



 

I laugh at it...

Like I thought earlier... 

_65 year old billy bob frank and 14 year old jo jo bubba, with a colt 45 and a remmington will avert the tyranny... _

Have you seen the bill of rights? - written by some dudes in 1791.... 

The world was so different back then.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> correct. You will not be convinced or persuaded. Should you go to college (or develop the interest earlier) you may read the works of those thinkers who have shaped the framework of our Constitution and judge for yourself, but nobody here is going to do horse tricks to amuse your passing curiosity on proving a negative.



Fair enough!  

I've learnt about a lot of my own ignorance from asking questions though. 
I know more about the constitution, I know more about the Bill of Rights.. I know more statistics too, I've watched youtube debates too from writers, journalists, Hollywood folk, celebrities, Ted Nugent [that was funny].. and many others. 

and yet my knowledge still amounts to sweet F.A.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> The supporters will say it works because the gov has never tried to take over. The federal gov is scared of rednecks with handguns and .22 rifles.
> 
> The realists will lol at that....



Ruby Ridge was 1992

Waco was 1993

Oklahoma City was in 1995 as a response.

Suddenly Federal responses to this shit changed dramatically. Yeah, I'd say the government fears the rednecks.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Have you seen the bill of rights? - written by some dudes in 1791....
> 
> The world was so different back then.



I agree. It's time to re-write that shit.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Ruby Ridge was 1992
> 
> Waco was 1993
> 
> Oklahoma City was in 1995 as a response.
> 
> Suddenly Federal responses to this shit changed dramatically. Yeah, I'd say the government fears the rednecks.



Delusion is common to all gun nuts.


----------



## Marshall Mann

crossroadsnyc said:


> So, anyway ... why don't we try and bring it back on the topic Adwex brought up? I'm curious as to what you guys think about this from the perspective of a preventative approach w/respect to the medical community. There's been a good argument(s) made about how all of these 'lone wolf' shooters share a similarity of being on prescription medication for mental illness ... so that kind of begs the question - if the root of the problem is at the feet of a behemoth like the medical industry, what are the real chances of connecting the dots for a solution? I mean, with so much money involved in medicine, I'm thinking anything from a federal level is almost impossible.



To my Aussie and UK Friends, I know CS asked to keep the web links to a minimum, but could you please list the sources where you are gathering your statistics on gun deaths from? 

This is not about guns. This is about access to mental health care. It began going down hill in the 60' and 70's when metal health facilities were closed and care for the ill was considered a luxury. We are reaping what we have sewn. We are distracted buy the gun issue in this case because it's is a much more political charged topic waiting for a catalyst like this one to spark it off. It's clear by the responses here. Few here have even mentioned they are concerned about the killers mental status or what his intentions were. Let alone the comparisons between the UK, Australia and the US for mental health care and coverage. I dont think the topic has even been broached in this thread before you brought it up. 

I don't think it's impossible to fix CS. We need to make mental health and medical coverage for it accessible again. But getting distracted by the guns in this story will only cost millions in debate of laws that can not be enforced and take away from the real problem, taking care of the sick.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

It's not just school massacres of 5 to 26 people.. it's the other 9,000 people murdered with guns that makes me think WTF!


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It's not just school massacres of 5 to 26 people.. it's the other 9,000 people murdered with guns that makes me think WTF!
> 
> In 2009 12,000 people were murdered with guns..
> 
> That 2cd amendment kills a hell load of people.
> 
> Guns, as it's been stated with common sense, makes killing folk way easier.. it essentially enables idiots to kill people very easily..



And don't forget guns protect you from the mean ol government.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Delusion is common to all gun nuts.



Ah, more pearls of wisdom cast before swine from the oracle of truth and intelligent thought.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Delusion is common to all gun nuts.



Throwing rocks in a glass house? You admitted that you own guns and enjoy the rights afford you by the second amendment. I guess we can count you in with the rest of us delusional nuts.


----------



## V-man

Marshall Mann said:


> Throwing rocks in a glass house? You admitted that you own guns and enjoy the rights afford you by the second amendment. I guess we can count you in with the rest of us delusional nuts.



well his logic is nothing if not consistent.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Ah, more pearls of wisdom cast before swine from the oracle of truth and intelligent thought.



Let's see...you're a delusional smug douchebag with guns that supports homeland terrorism and violence...I think I'll make a call to the ATF.


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Fair enough!
> 
> I've learnt about a lot of my own ignorance from asking questions though.
> I know more about the constitution, I know more about the Bill of Rights.. I know more statistics too, I've watched youtube debates too from writers, journalists, Hollywood folk, celebrities, Ted Nugent [that was funny].. and many others.
> 
> and yet my knowledge still amounts to sweet F.A.





What's your fascination with the US? I dont usually go about my day pondering the UK. Serious question.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Marshall Mann, what about sane people that kill others with guns?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, between 2006 and 2010 47,856 people were murdered in the U.S. by firearms, more than twice as many as were killed by all other means combined. _


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Marshall Mann said:


> To my Aussie and UK Friends, I know CS asked to keep the web links to a minimum, but could you please list the sources where you are gathering your statistics on gun deaths from?
> 
> This is not about guns. This is about access to mental health care. It began going down hill in the 60' and 70's when metal health facilities were closed and care for the ill was considered a luxury. We are reaping what we have sewn. We are distracted buy the gun issue in this case because it's is a much more political charged topic waiting for a catalyst like this one to spark it off. It's clear by the responses here. Few here have even mentioned they are concerned about the killers mental status or what his intentions were. Let alone the comparisons between the UK, Australia and the US for mental health care and coverage. I dont think the topic has even been broached in this thread before you brought it up.
> 
> I don't think it's impossible to fix CS. We need to make mental health and medical coverage for it accessible again. But getting distracted by the guns in this story will only cost millions in debate of laws that can not be enforced and take away from the real problem, taking care of the sick.



I agree, the issue is mental illness for sure. Though, with so much lobbying / money / etc. involved, how do you even begin to scratch the surface of connecting the dots to the public? Like you said, the distraction started with the first news coverage ... people are focused on the model car that got in the accident, rather than the reason the guy boozed up and got behind the wheel to begin with.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Throwing rocks in a glass house? You admitted that you own guns and enjoy the rights afford you by the second amendment. I guess we can count you in with the rest of us delusional nuts.



Please don't. I'm not like you. I don't strap up and lock and load just to go to the movies. My guns don't leave the house. I don't hide behind the constituion. I'm not paranoid. I'm not sitting around waiting for the government to kick down my door. I don't walk around hoping and praying that I can one day use my gun to "defend" myself. I'm not a whackjob.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SonVolt said:


> What's your fascination with the US? I dont usually go about my day pondering the UK. Serious question.



Already responded to this, with my own thread even, if you'd bother to read it.. as shit as it is.. it explains things. 

Also, just shooting shit man... I'm fascinated by the USA and the fact the government over there lets 90 out of 100 people own guns. 

The combination of society + guns = mass killings.. 

I want to understand how people can justify it with the 2cd amendment and the 'tyranny' thing..


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Let's see...you're a delusional douchebag with guns that supports homeland terrorism and violence...I think I'll make a call to the ATF.



No need for that.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> No need for that.



Right, my apologies to V-man. I retract the douchebag part. The rest stands.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Please don't. I'm not like you. I don't strap up and lock and load just to go to the movies. My guns don't leave the house. I don't hide behind the constituion. I'm not paranoid. I'm not sitting around waiting for the government to kick down my door. I don't walk around hoping and praying that I can one day use my gun to "defend" myself. I'm not a whackjob.





as much as I find that funny, it is an actual fact and attitude people adopt with no irony. 

No irony at all.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Let's see...you're a delusional douchebag with guns that supports homeland terrorism and violence...I think I'll make a call to the ATF.



If that came from someone here, I'd probably be offended.

As it came from you, all I can say is "Welcome back, Grunch" 

I'll discuss issues with you to some extent, but I'm not going to play into sad little game. You never got to me, and you never will. You WILL get to others, probably the same ones you have incensed before, and you will invariably be banned again and wait discontented for your timeout to expire, but hopefully my welcome will serve as encouragement for you to ply your trade on another, or better still, just grow up and stop the games.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Ok, I've about had it w/the personal attacks on American's from both FS and Grunch ... if you guys can't make a point w/out insulting people, please keep your comments to yourself.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> If that came from someone here, I'd probably be offended.
> 
> As it came from you, all I can say is "Welcome back, Grunch"
> 
> I'll discuss issues with you to some extent, but I'm not going to play into sad little game. You never got to me, and you never will. You WILL get to others, probably the same ones you have incensed before, and you will invariably be banned again and wait discontented for your timeout to expire, but hopefully my welcome will serve as encouragement for you to ply your trade on another, or better still, just grow up and stop the games.


You doth protest too much. You're as guilty as I am.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> Ok, I've about had it w/the personal attacks on American's from both FS and Grunch ... if you guys can't make a point w/out insulting people, please keep your comments to yourself.



I apologized to V-man for calling him a douchebag. I am an american. I can't point out the foolishness and hypocrisy of my own people?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Ok, I've about had it w/the personal attacks on American's from both FS and Grunch ... if you guys can't make a point w/out insulting people, please keep your comments to yourself.



I've been called a child and an idiot. I'm deeply offended. 

I'm only bashing the 2cd amendment.. which I'm trying to decipher here from people that support it... 

I had a subway today too, I had a starbucks and a dominos over the weekend, I watched First Blood Rambo and wore my new Adidas LZs today which were designed in the US, my apple was designed in the US too, and my fender strat I played today made in the US.. most of my music is american too and lots of my film collection too... meh I love the US! one of the best countries in the world.. period. 

but the gun thing over there fascinates me...


----------



## Grunch

I'm a proud american that hates to see his country going down the shitter at the hands of religious zealots and wimpy liberals.


----------



## Grunch

I'm watching monday night football. Jets vs Titans. Two shitty teams in a horribly boring AFC game, but I'm watching anyway because it's fucking football and I'm an american and I love it.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

My point is that you guys can make a point w/out suggesting that people are delusional nuts who are running around prepared for some kind of invasion. 

@FS ... no, I referred to the response to that of a child ... not you specifically. I was basically saying that you're too intelligent to have the kind of reaction you are having, and my suspicion is that there is a lot more to it than a 'general curiosity about that tyranny thing'. Your responses have been emotional.


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> but the gun thing over there fascinates me...


 

It doesn't fascinate you, it irritates you... and you're irritating us. We try not to obsess over your bad teeth and bland food, it's part of what makes a Brit a Brit. I wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## Grunch

SonVolt said:


> It doesn't fascinate you, it irritates you... and you're irritating us. We try not to obsess over your bad teeth and bland food but we take it for what it is.



Who is "us" and "we"?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> @FS ... no, I referred to the response to that of a child ... not you specifically. I was basically saying that you're too intelligent to have the kind of reaction you are having, and my suspicion is that there is a lot more to it than a 'general curiosity about that tyranny thing'. Your responses have been emotional.



I have been far less calculated in my responses... poor grammar, poorly structured posts.. very quick responses.. asking loads of questions... 

You could say, I'm not myself on here lately. But nonetheless .. I like the US and I respect members here. 

I can't help but love the tyranny thing, just my bag! - I like discussions about governments actions, foreign policy, intellectualism, nationalism.. you name it, I'm into it... 

Being on this forum with Americans that own guns, what a perfect opportunity to have a discussion about it - 

I've actually discovered in this thread that I'm hypocritical, which I knew anyway, but it's the truth. I want self discovery dammit!

At the moment I'm sitting on the fence, and I don't like doing such a thing.


----------



## brp

Grunch said:


> *I'm an american* and I love it.



I guess that's what was missing for me cuz I tried and just couldn't do it anymore  
Watched a lot of football yesterday and this game is just so not tolerable.


----------



## Grunch

brp said:


> I guess that's what was missing for me cuz I tried and just couldn't do it anymore
> Watched a lot of football yesterday and this game is just so not tolerable.



Bad football is still football, so it's good.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SonVolt said:


> It doesn't fascinate you, it irritates you... and you're irritating us. We try not to obsess over your bad teeth and bland food, it's part of what makes a Brit a Brit. I wouldn't have it any other way.



Nah, doesn't irritate me at all. It would irritate me if the 2cd amendment was passed in the UK and my hypothetical child at school was murdered.. that's being irritated. 

Unlikely to happen of course - 

Whilst it's going on in someone else's country and their society permits such weapons.. I want to know how it came about and the rationale for such a thing. 

Bad teeth, bland food etc. lol  
I eat American food here and my teeth were serviced by an American orthodontist on the NHS. I'm not British by the way either, I'm English - which essentially means I'm an immigrant from hundreds of years ago when pilgrims came here and made a melting pot of impure humans, just like in every other country in the world. Just another civilian shooting shit ... enjoying the bizarre game of trying to figure out life and the point of it and other people being passionate about funny things ....


----------



## DBi5

crossroadsnyc said:


> Ok, I've about had it w/the personal attacks on American's from both FS and Grunch ... if you guys can't make a point w/out insulting people, please keep your comments to yourself.


Delete the thread, you've done it on far less sensitive topics.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp,

"If we can't laugh at the dead, we have no business killing people"

 

Pretty apt signature for a thread like this.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> brp,
> 
> "If we can't laugh at the dead, we have no business killing people"
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty apt signature for a thread like this.



Isn't humor just tragedy + time?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Isn't humor just tragedy + time?



Incongruous I suppose.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Please don't. I'm not like you. I don't strap up and lock and load just to go to the movies. My guns don't leave the house. I don't hide behind the constituion. I'm not paranoid. I'm not sitting around waiting for the government to kick down my door. I don't walk around hoping and praying that I can one day use my gun to "defend" myself. I'm not a whackjob.



OK, so I know that past experience dictates that going down this path with you is usually a dead end road, but I feel I need to. 

Why are you assuming I am different than you in this argument? When did I state that I am "praying for the government to kick down my door", or that "I walk around hoping and praying that I can one day use my gun to "defend" myself". My guns only leave my house when I am shooting them at a range or in the woods. I'm not paranoid either. The primary reason I own guns is the same reason you stated you do, to protect my family and home. I don not carry them around with me looking for a reason to use them. As a matter of fact, I dread the though of ever having to use a weapon. Your statement is a short sighted assumption and is disrespectful.

The simple fact that you own guns at all is because of your second amendment rights, regardless of your intended uses for them.


----------



## brp

Yep.

I'd add apt for these times.
Hasn't been not apt for quite a long time but especially apt for this thread, I suppose.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Pretty apt signature for a thread like this.



This was sarcasm by the way 

The notion being, it's not apt and it's not applicable to the nature of 'the dead' whence came this discussion. 

An appalling miscalculation.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> The simple fact that you own guns at all is because of your second amendment rights, regardless of your intended uses for them.



This is all I read of your post. I have two guns - both gifts. One's a shotgun that I got as a kid for dove hunting. I haven't been dove hunting in a long time. I'm not a hunter. It's 2012. I don't need to walk around in camo to stalk and kill my food. No one does. I can just go buy it, like a civilized human. The other is a 22 rifle given to me as a gift for God only knows what reason. It's never been fired. If that's the 2nd amendment in action, then it's a completely useless amendment.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> This was sarcasm by the way
> 
> The notion being, it's not apt and it's not applicable to the nature of 'the dead' whence came this discussion.
> 
> An appalling miscalculation.



No I assure you it's quite poetic really in the context of this discussion of guns and the rights (or lack thereof in some cases) of citizens to arm themselves with them for the purpose of defending themselves from their fellow countrymen.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I don't need to walk around in camo to stalk and kill my food. I can just go buy it, like a civilized human.



 

Blowing a dove out of the sky with a shotgun.. 

People seriously do that? :Ohno:


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> No I assure you it's quite poetic really in the context of this discussion of guns and the rights (or lack thereof in some cases) of citizens to arm themselves with them to defend themselves from their fellow countrymen.



I know, it's a paradigm of sorts. 

You never laugh at the dead, so you should never kill people... kinda thing.. 

Yet people do kill and people do laugh at the dead..


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Blowing a dove out of the sky with a shotgun..
> 
> People seriously do that? :Ohno:



Yup, it's great family fun! And if it doesn't die from the gunshot, you can easily just rip it's head off to finish the job. After doing that a few dozen times, you have enough doves for one meal for one person.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Yup, it's great family fun! And if it doesn't die from the gunshot, you can easily just rip it's head off to finish the job. After doing that a few dozen times, you have enough doves for one meal for one person.



 

Doesn't the family pet hunting dog go and collect it or something?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Doesn't the family pet hunting dog go and collect it or something?



Yes, when it's finished with it's Big-Mac, it may go get the dead bird.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> I've been thinking about this a lot. I'm kind of at a crossroads. I'm torn. One one hand, I can agree with and accept the gun nuts notion that private citizens should be allowed to protect themselves from the crazy fucks out there. [B]No argument from me. I have a few guns for home protection myself. [/B]On the other hand, I hate that we're so deep in the hole of crime and violence that reasonable people feel the need to strap up and carry everywhere. I hate that guns are so deeply ingrained in our society that rampaging shooting sprees have become commonplace. I hate that other civilized modern societies can live in relative peace and prosperity while we as a nation bicker and fight and kill eachother over meaningless bullshit. And I really hate the few fringe whackadoos that think everyone everywhere should carry as if that's gonna stop it all. So I don't know where to go with it. I don't wanna be a gun person, and I don't support redneck mentality. I don't wanna be caught with my pants down either. So I think I'll just buy a gun and start killing people that I feel need to be killed.



Thanks for taking the time to read my post be fore you commented on it.

Your highlighted statement above is what I'm referring to, and is why I stated you enjoy (if we are to believe what you say) your second amendment rights. If you feel contrary, why haven't not sold your guns?


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I know, it's a paradigm of sorts.
> 
> You never laugh at the dead, so you should never kill people... kinda thing..
> 
> Yet people do kill and people do laugh at the dead..



Yet many people's philosophy's claim to hold human life in the highest regard but they then contribute and indeed support the taking of it quite liberally, almost casually in some cases. Even conscious of this paradox in some as well. While others still do the same more unwittingly.


That's one of the subtexts to the quote in my sig, to me. Not the only one though but probably the real meat of it.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks for taking the time to read my post be fore you commented on it.
> 
> Your highlighted statement above is what I'm referring to, and is why I stated you enjoy (if we are to believe what you say) your second amendment rights. If you feel contrary, why haven't not sold your guns?



I don't want the guns, but I don't want to sell them either. They were given to me by loved ones and hold sentimental value, even though they will never be used for their intended purpose. So if I'm not gonna sell them, and never use them, I might as well claim them as home protection like the rest of america. So again, if that's the second amendment in action, then the second amendment is dumb.


----------



## Australian

You are being brainwashed like kindergarten children to say what administration want you to say. Beware!

Free speech doesnt exist here anymore. Hence its not a Forum.

Ban politics and Religion completely or allow free ideas to flow.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> You are being brainwashed like kindergarten children to say what administration want you to say. Beware!



Slash
Marshall
Brown sound
God
Guns
America
Fuck yeah!


----------



## Grunch

Grunch said:


> I don't want the guns, but I don't want to sell them either. They were given to me by loved ones and hold sentimental value, even though they will never be used for their intended purpose. So if I'm not gonna sell them, and never use them, I might as well claim them as home protection like the rest of america. So again, if that's the second amendment in action, then the second amendment is dumb.



And furthermore, honestly, I'd rather beat an intruder to death with one of them rather than shoot them.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Australian said:


> You are being brainwashed like kindergarten children to say what administration want you to say. Beware!
> 
> Free speech doesnt exist here anymore. Hence its not a Forum.
> 
> Ban politics and Religion or allow free ideas to flow.



Go make yourself a nice cup of tea ... you're currently sitting on 23 pages of free speech / free ideas.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Yes, when it's finished with it's Big-Mac, it may go get the dead bird.



I must confess when I was around 14 years old, I had a Co2 powered pistol and I shot at a pigeon once... glad I missed to be honest. It's one of those fucked up things you do as a kid.. shoot at living animals... 

Mostly I shot at ignited Lynx deodorant cans and watched them explode. 

I had air guns from age 11 upwards. The antique chimney pots in the back garden got ruined, and so did I when my dad found out...apparently I devalued them by thousands of pounds. woops. 

I also shot a car once with a homemade catapult, chipped the window, the dude got out and came knocking on my front door once I'd legged it back over my fence.. 

ahhh the days of stupid shit. 

Now I sit at my computer and yammer on...


----------



## brp

Australian said:


> You are being brainwashed like kindergarten children to say what administration want you to say. Beware!
> 
> Free speech doesnt exist here anymore. Hence its not a Forum.



Is this the start of your martyrdom ban campaign? Awesome.
I saw your thread. It was against the rules. And your post above is flawed from the get go. "Anymore" when it never did?


----------



## Australian

brp said:


> Is this the start of your martyrdom ban campaign? Awesome.
> I saw your thread. It was against the rules. And your post above is flawed from the get go. "Anymore" when it never did?



Oh I'm sorry Reverend Brb. So you're getting a cut from advertisement here too?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Go make yourself a nice cup of tea



You're not addressing me anymore! the pom has had his tea!  

I think he's Australian... perhaps a Fosters? 

I joke.. I joke.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Oh I'm sorry Reverend Brb. So you're getting a cut from advertisement here too?



Yayah! woop woop..

let's expose the vBulletin incentive!


----------



## Grunch

I've been to England. The tea was delicious. That was pretty much the only thing that was.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're not addressing me anymore! the pom has had his tea!
> 
> I think he's Australian... perhaps a Fosters?
> 
> I joke.. I joke.



Hahaha, I'm not sure why I even said that ... just sounded right if you're going to curl up w/a long thread. Though, I'd probably opt for a hot chocolate. :cool2:


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I've been to England. The tea was delicious. That was pretty much the only thing that was.





Do you visit any of our millions of McDonald's, subways, Starbucks, Burger Kings, Dominos, Pizza hut outlets? - 

Shame. lol. 

I drink Earl Grey tea.. COME GET YA SOME!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Hahaha, I'm not sure why I even said that ... just sounded right if you're going to curl up w/a long thread. Though, I'd probably opt for a hot chocolate. :cool2:



 

It's funny, patronising someone such as an English person about 'going to make tea' isn't patronising at all.. it's actually a great idea!


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Do you visit any of our millions of McDonald's, subways, Starbucks, Burger Kings, Dominos, Pizza hut outlets? -
> 
> Shame. lol.
> 
> I drink Earl Grey tea.. COME GET YA SOME!



I've tried getting into tea, but it makes my mouth dry. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong ones? I love a good hot chocolate though! Coffee in the morning / hot chocolate before bed.


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Do you visit any of our millions of McDonald's, subways, Starbucks, Burger Kings, Dominos, Pizza hut outlets? -




Now _that's_ a legitimate reason to be pissed off at America.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SonVolt said:


> Now _that's_ a legitimate reason to be pissed off at America.



LMAO! are you kidding me? 

I was kicking back with my pal today in a Subway and a Starbucks.

You think I'm shitting you? - WRONG. 

I love all that stuff. I had an Italian BMT on hearty Italian bread.. foot long, toasted with cheese.. jalapenos, black olives, lettuce, ranch sauce, mayo and some red onion..
in bucks I had a grande cappucni .. to stay in ... 

Coors light is my favourite drink right now too.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Do you visit any of our millions of McDonald's, subways, Starbucks, Burger Kings, Dominos, Pizza hut outlets? -
> 
> Shame. lol.
> 
> I drink Earl Grey tea.. COME GET YA SOME!



I don't eat that shit here, I for sure aint eating it over there.


----------



## brp

Australian said:


> Oh I'm sorry Reverend Brb. So you're getting a cut from advertisement here too?



I'm definitely reaping a benefit from not having a squillion threads like your ill fated one propagating all over this board


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> Slash
> Marshall
> Brown sound
> God
> Guns
> America
> Fuck yeah!




And the 'weather'. Thats an important one. A weather conversation is always welcome in society. In fact its even the best pick up line-if you're outdoors of course.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Fuck Starfucks

Every couple of weeks they open a new one somewhere here. It makes me wonder if there is some sort of money laundering involved. Maybe not, but it just seems a bit strange how fast it grows here.
McFucks also, there is a lot. But it is not like the US. In the US, if you are broke, you got there where you can get burgers for a dollar. 
Here it is kind of expensive. And the buildings that they are in are pretty _nice_ buildings. Just an observation.

It is very americanized here as well.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It's funny, patronising someone such as an English person about 'going to make tea' isn't patronising at all.. it's actually a great idea!



Oh, it wasn't meant as patronizing at all ... I meant it, like curl up w/something to drink, and dig into the thread ... based on what he said, my guess is that he'll probably agree w/75% of what's been said in this thread.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> I've tried getting into tea, but it makes my mouth dry. Maybe I'm just getting the wrong ones? I love a good hot chocolate though! Coffee in the morning / hot chocolate before bed.



Yeah hot drinks make me thirsty too. When I drink coffee I have a bottle of cold water with it too. 

Even after tea I drink some water - nice way to cleanse the pallet. 

"cleansing the pallet"

I think I probably sound quintessentially English by saying this, but it's the way to go. Proper etiquette goes a long way in my book.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Oh, it wasn't meant as patronizing at all ... I meant it, like curl up w/something to drink, and dig into the thread ... based on what he said, my guess is that he'll probably agree w/75% of what's been said in this thread.



I know it wasn't, but just saying it would be funny!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I don't eat that shit here, I for sure aint eating it over there.



You're missing out dude! Dominos makes me feel happy.. my body aches from the salt sometimes.. but I have ice cold glass bottles of coke over the festive period to deal with that... 

I prefer Costa to Starbucks though.. just saying.


----------



## Australian

brp said:


> I'm definitely reaping a benefit from not having a squillion threads like your ill fated one propagating all over this board




What is sad about your accusation, is that no one can go back and see the truth of what I wrote because they were deleted.

The mods are pro-gun. period! 

I've got nothing against guns only in a safe environment. 12 shootings like this under the Obama administration. If you are a parent you would probably wish that a kid cant just grad grandmas automatic and play genocide at the local school.
I'd like to have a real history on the perpetrators(autistic) medical regime. I'll guarantee he was so pumped with drugs and so called 'therapy' that he didnt know if he was Arthur or Martha.


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> You are being brainwashed like kindergarten children to say what administration want you to say. Beware!
> 
> Free speech doesnt exist here anymore. Hence its not a Forum.
> 
> Ban politics and Religion completely or allow free ideas to flow.



Dude, stop. Your thread was purposely provocative, and you know it.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> I'd like to have a real history on the perpetrators(autistic) medical regime. I'll guarantee he was so pumped with drugs and so called 'therapy' that he didnt know if he was Arthur or Martha.



Grim. He was a tech genius though?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You're missing out dude! Dominos makes me feel happy.. my body aches from the salt sometimes.. but I have ice cold glass bottles of coke over the festive period to deal with that...



No. Dominos is terrible. Lol. I like pizza, even delivery pizza, but it can't be Dominos. We got a chain here called Papa John's that makes a pretty good home delivery pizza. I don't eat any other fast food. There is a burger joint that makes good breakfast stuff, so I'll eat that sometimes after a night of shooting guns and drinking beer.


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> LMAO! are you kidding me?
> 
> I was kicking back with my pal today in a Subway and a Starbucks.
> 
> You think I'm shitting you? - WRONG.
> 
> I love all that stuff.




I'll take fish booty, bangers 'n mash, blood sausage or even marmite smeared all over a proper English breakfast 9 out of 10 times.


----------



## brp

Australian said:


> The mods are pro-gun. period!



I'll bet if someone were to make a thread with the exact opposite sentiment as yours, it would also get deleted.

I could be wrong.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> Dude, stop. Your thread was purposely provocative, and you know it.



Its ok I've adjusted my raft now. I'm flowing with the stream again. 

Its a lovely day. Hmm cup of tea sounds nice. Then a stroll down Chapel st to check out some legs.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Yeah hot drinks make me thirsty too. When I drink coffee I have a bottle of cold water with it too.
> 
> Even after tea I drink some water - nice way to cleanse the pallet.
> 
> "cleansing the pallet"
> 
> I think I probably sound quintessentially English by saying this, but it's the way to go. Proper etiquette goes a long way in my book.



Ok, here's something I do that I believe is rather English (or so i've been told) ... but I prefer to eat my salad at the end of my meal. It's a good way to cleanse the pallet, as you said ... also, it just makes the whole meal more refreshing, and goes down better.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> No. Dominos is terrible. Lol. I like pizza, even delivery pizza, but it can't be Dominos. We got a chain here called Papa John's that makes a pretty good home delivery pizza. I don't eat any other fast food. There is a burger joint that makes good breakfast stuff, so I'll eat that sometimes after a night of shooting guns and drinking beer.



We have Papa John's too! We literally have everything you have apart from Wendy's and a few others. 

I like all forms of pizza, even bad forms.. 

_Nuttin' like a good night of shooting the guns bro.. waaaahhhooooo!LOCK'N'LOAD against the GUV'MENT!_


----------



## brp

Grunch said:


> No. Dominos is terrible. Lol. I like pizza, even delivery pizza, but it can't be Dominos. We got a chain here called Papa John's that makes a pretty good home delivery pizza. I don't eat any other fast food. There is a burger joint that makes good breakfast stuff, so I'll eat that sometimes after a night of shooting guns and drinking beer.



In the grand scheme of American based pizza chains, Dominos IS pretty terrible.
Papa John's is alright.
What's the one where they make it but you take it home to bake yourself?

I try to stick with the one-off Mom n' Pop types though.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Ok, here's something I do that I believe is rather English (or so i've been told) ... but I prefer to eat my salad at the end of my meal. It's a good way to cleanse the pallet, as you said ... also, it just makes the whole meal more refreshing, and goes down better.



Yeah excellent! 

My Swiss relatives and Australian family members have intervals of salad, mainly lettuce, with a refreshing salad dressing, during the course of the meal. 

Cleansing the pallet is awesome.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> We have Papa John's too! We literally have everything you have apart from Wendy's and a few others.
> 
> I like all forms of pizza, even bad forms..
> 
> _Nuttin' like a good night of shooting the guns bro.. waaaahhhooooo!LOCK'N'LOAD against the GUV'MENT!_





Yeah Pizza thats a safe one too. You guys are well trained. 


carry on.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SonVolt said:


> I'll take fish booty, bangers 'n mash, blood sausage or even marmite smeared all over a proper English breakfast 9 out of 10 times.



You mean black pudding? WTF is a blood sausage?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> We have Papa John's too! We literally have everything you have apart from Wendy's and a few others.



Do you have Sonic? They got a chili cheese tater tots that goes down great after a night of looking for trouble to defend your self from with guns.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Yeah Pizza thats a safe one too. You guys are well trained.
> 
> 
> carry on.



Dude.. I'm having the time of my forum life right now..


----------



## Grunch

brp said:


> In the grand scheme of American based pizza chains, Dominos IS pretty terrible.
> Papa John's is alright.
> What's the one where they make it but you take it home to bake yourself?
> 
> I try to stick with the one-off Mom n' Pop types though.



Yeah me too. I'm kind of a pizza snob.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude.. I'm having the time of my forum life right now..




If I was Chef Ramsey I'd be loving this thread right now but I'm not. 


Laterz!!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Yeah me too. I'm kind of a pizza snob.



I'm a pizza whore then.. Dominos, Papa Johns, Pizza hut.... it doesn't matter... I'll chow down all those babes of heaven.. 

I was in Pizza Hut last Friday when I saw the Hobbit too. 

How totally integrated into the American lifestyle am I? - all the brands, foods, films.... like I've said, I practically live in the US.


----------



## Adwex

Really, wtf is wrong with you guys, get back to the debate.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

You guys even started the T.G.I Friday's? 

 excellent. I loved that place for a good time... the spicy wings were the best. Haven't been for a while. Walked past one the other day and thought about it.


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> Really, wtf is wrong with you guys, get back to the debate.



Lol. Yes, we can't have friendly conversation in this thread!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Adwex said:


> Forget the gun debate for a minute, and remember the victims of this tragedy:



Man, this has degraded beyond all hope.


----------



## brp

Adwex said:


> Really, wtf is wrong with you guys, get back to the debate.



To Australian's point about med history, it will be intriguing to see the killer's mental treatment history and (if any of note) I hope it receives at least as much national discussion regarding future preventative measures as the reactionary gun control topic has.


----------



## Adwex

Praising Dominos or Papa Johns is grounds for thread closure.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I6xkVRWzCY[/ame]


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Adwex said:


> Praising Dominos or Papa Johns is grounds for thread closure.



Damn, and you guys think I'm tough!


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You guys even started the T.G.I Friday's?
> 
> excellent. I loved that place for a good time... the spicy wings were the best. Haven't been for a while. Walked past one the other day and thought about it.




I thought you were joking. This is clearly getting out of hand. Mods please lock the thread. Another culture destroyed courtesy of T.G.I-McFucking-Gross and every other imported low class American establishment.


----------



## Grunch

Lol. TGI Fridays is ass on an ass cracker.


----------



## Australian

Here FS I baked this for you. And it will hopefully be mod approved.


----------



## Grunch

Dammit


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Australian said:


> Here FS I baked this for you. And its been mod approved.



Cool, but it's missing a Mom, a baseball, and an assault rifle


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> Dammit



You didnt really think that one would stay did you.


----------



## Grunch




----------



## SmokeyDopey

Grunch said:


> Dammit



_Happy 16th Birthday Sarah_?

*tsk-tsk*


----------



## Grunch

SmokeyDopey said:


> _Happy 16th Birthday Sarah_?
> 
> *tsk-tsk*



It was just a birthday cake.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


>



Grunch on a float? 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TvbIGjvR-8]metro sexuals of southpark - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Grunch

Wait, we're doing personal attacks again? Cool.


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


>





In that case, I was going to say this reminds me of Diessect, but in an endearing way.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Wait, we're doing personal attacks again? Cool.



lol that was hardly a personal attack ... you don't find that funny? Hmmm, I was just trying to find a funny counter to your wheelchair guy.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> In that case, I was going to say this reminds me of Diessect, but in an endearing way.



Lolz.....


----------



## gdh1532

^ on one hand my rational side says that is in very poor taste. On the other side though, that is hilarious, and in a lot of cases absolutely true... all the way down to the flip flops, the motorized cart, and the oxygen bottle. If he had a carton of cigs, or one in his mouth it would be spot on.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> lol that was hardly a personal attack ... you don't find that funny? Hmmm, I was just trying to find a funny counter to your wheelchair guy.



I didn't watch the clip. It probably is funny.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> I didn't watch the clip. It probably is funny.



Here, I'll balance it out w/another funny one ... 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik]Southpark - They Took Our Job! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Söulcaster

.


----------



## Australian

Does anyone know where I can hire a personal 'forum censor'? It would save me a lot of time posting.


----------



## Söulcaster

Australian said:


> Does anyone know where I can hire a personal 'forum censor'? It would save me a lot of time posting.



You can borrow mine =)


----------



## Australian

Söulcaster said:


> You can borrow mine =)




Have you got that special one that is blind to John Wilder aka (Slash Tones) breaking the rules?


----------



## gdh1532




----------



## SonVolt

Roses are red, Violets are blue


----------



## scat7s

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuLgO4wo4xI&NR=1&feature=endscreen]Portland Mall Shooter Stopped by CCW holder, Media lies by omission. - YouTube[/ame]

.


----------



## V-man

Adwex said:


> Praising Dominos or Papa Johns is grounds for thread closure.





crossroadsnyc said:


> Damn, and you guys think I'm tough!



The derailment is certainly insensitive and perhaps insulting as it makes light of the topic...

But if I ever put a quote (out of context) in my sig, it would be that. 


Something I would like to point out that hasn't been addressed in an earnest effort to bring this back on topic...

The AR-15 was created in the 1960s by the brilliant Eugene Stoner. At this time, many dads had WWII and Korea "bringbacks" in the form of captured machine guns and pistols. One could go into a sporting goods store and buy the "Sporter" Semi-automatic AR-15 version, or the Fully automatic version. Throughout the 1970s, there were Vietnam bringbacks, then HK rifle and subgun imports, etc. What we DID NOT have at these times was this epidemic.

From the Tommy gun of the 20s to the HK MP5 of the 80s (before new MGs were banned in '86), there was no widespread workplace or school shootings _with consequential media circus_. These were the isolated incidents of organized crime. OBVIOUSLY this is being caused by something else. OBVIOUSLY since the 1990s (when there was both a MG AND an AW ban in place), some thing(s) has/have developed since to cause these problems. THIS is what should be focused upon, not the media or Backstage circus.


----------



## Söulcaster

Australian said:


> Have you got that special one that is blind to John Wilder aka (Slash Tones) breaking the rules?



WTF,,,...TISM

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhMpL5ux7m0]TISM Greg! The Stop Sign!! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> Have you got that special one that is blind to John Wilder aka (Slash Tones) breaking the rules?



Please elaborate...via PM.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> Please elaborate...via PM.




Ok sending pm now.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

This thread nearly brought me to tears of grief, and yet nearly brought me to tears of laughter too. 

Cracking thread.


----------



## Heavy Metal

Marshall Mann said:


> To my Aussie and UK Friends, I know CS asked to keep the web links to a minimum, but could you please list the sources where you are gathering your statistics on gun deaths from?
> 
> This is not about guns. This is about access to mental health care. It began going down hill in the 60' and 70's when metal health facilities were closed and care for the ill was considered a luxury. We are reaping what we have sewn. We are distracted buy the gun issue in this case because it's is a much more political charged topic waiting for a catalyst like this one to spark it off. It's clear by the responses here. Few here have even mentioned they are concerned about the killers mental status or what his intentions were. Let alone the comparisons between the UK, Australia and the US for mental health care and coverage. I dont think the topic has even been broached in this thread before you brought it up.
> 
> I don't think it's impossible to fix CS. We need to make mental health and medical coverage for it accessible again. But getting distracted by the guns in this story will only cost millions in debate of laws that can not be enforced and take away from the real problem, taking care of the sick.



Exactly, but everyone always wants to bring up gun control and that's how we fix the problem, yet continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is the mental stability of the person committing the crime. Working in the mental health and substance abuse field I can assure you more and more people need these services, but more and more states as well as the federal govenment continue to sweep it under the rug, cut funding for mental health and substance abuse programs and hope it will go away...


----------



## Grunch

Guns don't kill people, bullets do, but bullets are fired by guns that are controlled by humans.

Ban guns, bullets, and humans.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Heavy Metal said:


> Exactly, but everyone always wants to bring up gun control and that's how we fix the problem, yet continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is the mental stability of the person committing the crime. Working in the mental health and substance abuse field I can assure you more and more people need these services, but more and more states as well as the federal govenment continue to sweep it under the rug, cut funding for mental health and substance abuse programs and hope it will go away...



exactly. it's just another excuse to try to take away 1 more freedom.


----------



## CaptainZero

Here was some accidental journalism by ABC's George Snuffleupagus :

Sandy Hook Elementary Shooter Adam Lanza in Newtown, Conn.: What Caused Shooting? | Video - ABC News


----------



## wolfgang

A big part of the problem starts at home and with the parents. It IS the parents job to bring thier kids up in a way that should support society instead of hurting it. And if there is a problem with the child, then it IS the parents job to find help in whatever way for thier kid. Nowadays, either the parents "dont have the time", can't afford it or just dont want to be bothered. So its the child who pays and in this case, many others. Things were never like this before and we have had guns for how long? Do I think arming everyone is the answer? No. But I do beleive in the 2nd amendment which gives me the right to choose for myself. And you can't give everyone a right without some asspad taking advantage of it. I just get tired of hearing idiots uphold the constitution when it fits their agenda(such as free speech) and then try to knock it down when it doesnt. If you dont want to own or like guns then dont have them. its your right. You cant have a right just one way. That would take away your right to choose.


----------



## Australian

Heavy Metal said:


> Exactly, but everyone always wants to bring up gun control and that's how we fix the problem, yet continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is the mental stability of the person committing the crime. Working in the mental health and substance abuse field I can assure you more and more people need these services, but more and more states as well as the federal govenment continue to sweep it under the rug, cut funding for mental health and substance abuse programs and hope it will go away...




Can you give us a brief outline on how you treat your patients with Mental Illness? are your parents psychiatrists?

Medication? Counseling ? Hypnotism ? Psychoanalysis? Labotomy? ..other? all?


----------



## Grunch

Maybe this is a good thing. Let's let everyone shoot it out. Thinned population, less burden on resources, better lives for everyone.


----------



## Heavy Metal

Australian said:


> Can you give us a brief outline on how you treat your patients with Mental Illness? are your parents psychiatrists?
> 
> Medication? Counseling ? Hypnotism ? Psychoanalysis? Labotomy? ..other? all?



Most of my family are educators, I am not a clinical professional I have an MBA in Business Administration, I am the CEO, but I am currently preparing to get my PhD. In our facility we use a varity of methods. At the initial meeting they go through a very intensive two hour intake, they are then seen by a phychiatrist and a review of their medical history or prior mental health treatment is evaluated. 

They are then introduced to a therapist and have an hour meeting to discuss the assessment. Obviously there are more severe cases of mental illness that require medications, but these are also reviewed quartlery to ensure their medications are working. Our clients are seen on a regular basis and do individual and group therapy. 

If the client demonstrates behaviors that are extreme, we contact the state mental facility where they are sent for further evaluation in the event they need to be hospitalized. 

It's a very long process and constant monitoring and communication among the State Department of Behavioral Health, the State Mental Hospital, and our facility. It's a lot of work. My facility sees an average of 150 clients a week about 25% of those are new referrals. We are busy to say the least.


----------



## Heavy Metal

wolfgang said:


> A big part of the problem starts at home and with the parents. It IS the parents job to bring thier kids up in a way that should support society instead of hurting it. And if there is a problem with the child, then it IS the parents job to find help in whatever way for thier kid. Nowadays, either the parents "dont have the time", can't afford it or just dont want to be bothered. So its the child who pays and in this case, many others. Things were never like this before and we have had guns for how long? Do I think arming everyone is the answer? No. But I do beleive in the 2nd amendment which gives me the right to choose for myself. And you can't give everyone a right without some asspad taking advantage of it. I just get tired of hearing idiots uphold the constitution when it fits their agenda(such as free speech) and then try to knock it down when it doesnt. If you dont want to own or like guns then dont have them. its your right. You cant have a right just one way. That would take away your right to choose.



I would agree in part, however what it boils down to is people having these stigmas and barriers when it comes to mental illness. No one wants to admit they may have a child, family member or friend that suffers from mental illness. The sooner people realize that it is better for everyone particularly the one suffering to get help. Mental Illness is not a death sentence, nor does having a mental illness mean you can't be productive and live a normal life. It takes a great deal of support.


----------



## wolfgang

Heavy Metal said:


> I would agree in part, however what it boils down to is people having these stigmas and barriers when it comes to mental illness. No one wants to admit they may have a child, family member or friend that suffers from mental illness. The sooner people realize that it is better for everyone particularly the one suffering to get help. Mental Illness is not a death sentence, nor does having a mental illness mean you can't be productive and live a normal life. It takes a great deal of support.


I agree. But I'm also talking about those parents that just dont care or say they cant afford it yet drive around in expensive suvs. The bottom line is that if you have a child, its your responsibility for their well being. I support anyone who puts their children before themselves. perfectly healthy or otherwise. The bottom line is that kids are our future. Without being responsible for them, what kind of fututre are they goona have.


----------



## Australian

Heavy Metal said:


> Most of my family are educators, I am not a clinical professional I have an MBA in Business Administration, I am the CEO, but I am currently preparing to get my PhD. In our facility we use a varity of methods. At the initial meeting they go through a very intensive two hour intake, they are then seen by a phychiatrist and a review of their medical history or prior mental health treatment is evaluated.
> 
> They are then introduced to a therapist and have an hour meeting to discuss the assessment. Obviously there are more severe cases of mental illness that require medications, but these are also reviewed quartlery to ensure their medications are working. Our clients are seen on a regular basis and do individual and group therapy.
> 
> If the client demonstrates behaviors that are extreme, we contact the state mental facility where they are sent for further evaluation in the event they need to be hospitalized.
> 
> It's a very long process and constant monitoring and communication among the State Department of Behavioral Health, the State Mental Hospital, and our facility. It's a lot of work. My facility sees an average of 150 clients a week about 25% of those are new referrals. We are busy to say the least.




I think that you'll find that the psychiatrists failure rate is very high. Thats the reason funding is reduced.
It also has a bad name because of its long history of abuse on patients namely Shock Treatment, PreFrontal lobotomy harmful drugs and others.

I know of a Psychiatric Mental Institution that was closed down in the early 90's and has so many cases against it that it will be in court for some years.


----------



## Heavy Metal

Australian said:


> I think that you'll find that the psychiatrists failure rate is very high. Thats the reason funding is reduced.
> It also has a bad name because of its long history of abuse on patients namely Shock Treatment, PreFrontal lobotomy harmful drugs and others.
> 
> I know of a Psychiatric Mental Institution that was closed down in the early 90's and has so many cases against it that it will be in court for some years.



I'm sure that does exist. We don't encourage that type of treatment, but I can only speak for my agency and what we do and what we don't do... our job is to provide services and help for those who need and want it.


----------



## Heavy Metal

wolfgang said:


> I agree. But I'm also talking about those parents that just dont care or say they cant afford it yet drive around in expensive suvs. The bottom line is that if you have a child, its your responsibility for their well being. I support anyone who puts their children before themselves. perfectly healthy or otherwise. The bottom line is that kids are our future. Without being responsible for them, what kind of fututre are they goona have.



Oh I believe that and have seen it. We operate on a sliding fee scale and we have to provide services regardless if the client has the ability to pay for those services, we also provide free services for all military veterans so we make all attempts to help those who want the services.


----------



## Australian

Heavy Metal said:


> I'm sure that does exist. We don't encourage that type of treatment, but I can only speak for my agency and what we do and what we don't do... our job is to provide services and help for those who need and want it.



Thats preety cool.
Has your Agency ever been taken to court?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

When people discuss the gun control thing, it's not just random and pretty rare cases of mentally ill people that shoot up a school that instigates the debate..

it's the statistic that around 10,000 people each year in the US are murdered with handguns - that's excluding suicides, which suicides attribute to the most deaths relating to handguns, and it excludes policing figures too.. 

It's a sick statistic.. pretty indefensible.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

scat7s said:


> it wasnt wierd 50 or 60 years ago and its not weird in rural areas today either.
> 
> dont you think its weird that kids spend 8 hrs a day blowing shit up and shooting people in a simulated warzone on a screen?



Back when I was a kid, FPS games didn't exist.
We played soldiers in the woods around here. Americans against Germans.
It was in retrospect rather rough including the taking and abuse of POW's.
After the game everyone was of course best friends again.
Or a group of kids from another neighbourhood would turn up, at which it would turn into serious fighting (which we always won)


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> When people discuss the gun control thing, it's not just random and pretty rare cases of mentally ill people that shoot up a school that instigates the debate..
> 
> it's the statistic that around 10,000 people each year in the US are murdered with handguns - that's excluding suicides, which suicides attribute to the most deaths relating to handguns, and it excludes policing figures too..
> 
> It's a sick statistic.. pretty indefensible.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Since the conversations seems to center on psychiatrists I want to share a story with you.

Many months ago my daughter was dating a guy. They have been together for a few yrs so she got to know his family. At least that ones who live in AZ. I am not going to use names for the family members. But I will call them bfriend, brother and mom.

Sometime leading up to late spring on a Sunday morning I got a call. Briend asked if I can come over and comfort my daughter. It was at that time bfriend told me his brother had killed their mom.
Before the killing mom was doing everything she could for the brother. Taking him to doctors appts, medicine and spending free time with him. She had taken him to a number of doctors appts. And was at some point involved in the discussion. The brother claimed their were voices in his head. These voices would tell him to kill his mom. The psychiatrists for one reason or another I guess didnt take it as a true threat. 

Well fast forward to late one Saturday night, the mom is trying to leave brothers apt. Brother says "dont leave" and then kills his mom by strangling her to death.

This brother stayed at my daughters & bfriends apt for 3 days right before this happened. This could have been my daughter and her bfriend that was killed. I dont know. Maybe he was just fixated on killing the mom. Who knows? What caused him to snap? Again, who knows? But a trained professional was involved and it still happened.

Take from this whatever you want. How it could relate to gun control or how a trained professional was involved and failed the mom. Fact is, he didnt need a gun to carry out what was going on in his mind. He used a bag. I never met the brother or the mom. But I was at the the service for mom. And the grief was very real. The loss is great. The bfriend is now without his mom or younger brother. That is tragic!


----------



## cowsgomoo

crossroadsnyc said:


> Ok, I've about had it w/the personal attacks on American's from both FS and Grunch ... if you guys can't make a point w/out insulting people, please keep your comments to yourself.



let that cut both ways.. there have been several of the usual lazy stereotypes about brits on this thread too


----------



## Micky

Very touching story.

I have said all along that this in not necessarily about guns.
It just so happens that was the weapon of choice in this case.
It could have been a bomb, poison gas, just about anything.

It is about the human that could do such a thing.

So how do you stop this human? How do you prevent this?

Maybe you can't. But there ARE things you CAN do.

Like creating a protective zone for kids. Doors that lock from the INSIDE. You don't have a CLUE how many schools don't have these...

So what if you cannot lock the outside doors or prevent someone who is determined to come in, we should all take a lesson from other countries that have been thru this, like Israel. Protecting yourself needs to be taught just as much as reading, math and english.

And if it DOES resort to arming yourself against the terrorists, again, take a lesson from Israel. It is a fact that the sad society we live in has turned to shit, but we need to learn to deal with it as best we can.

Again, it is not so much about guns as it is about protecting ourselves from the inevitable nutcase that is bent on destroying the lives we all cherish.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Marshall Mann, what about sane people that kill others with guns?



Sorry FS, I missed you post last night. Can you give me a little more to go on in regards to your question? I'm not sure what kind of sane person kills another with a gun?


----------



## Blokkadeleider

longfxukxnhair said:


> Since the conversations seems to center on psychiatrists I want to share a story with you.
> 
> Many months ago my daughter was dating a guy. They have been together for a few yrs so she got to know his family. At least that ones who live in AZ. I am not going to use names for the family members. But I will call them bfriend, brother and mom.
> 
> Sometime leading up to late spring on a Sunday morning I got a call. Briend asked if I can come over and comfort my daughter. It was at that time bfriend told me his brother had killed their mom.
> Before the killing mom was doing everything she could for the brother. Taking him to doctors appts, medicine and spending free time with him. She had taken him to a number of doctors appts. And was at some point involved in the discussion. The brother claimed their were voices in his head. These voices would tell him to kill his mom. The psychiatrists for one reason or another I guess didnt take it as a true threat.
> 
> Well fast forward to late one Saturday night, the mom is trying to leave brothers apt. Brother says "dont leave" and then kills his mom by strangling her to death.
> 
> This brother stayed at my daughters & bfriends apt for 3 days right before this happened. This could have been my daughter and her bfriend that was killed. I dont know. Maybe he was just fixated on killing the mom. Who knows? What caused him to snap? Again, who knows? But a trained professional was involved and it still happened.
> 
> Take from this whatever you want. How it could relate to gun control or how a trained professional was involved and failed the mom. Fact is, he didnt need a gun to carry out what was going on in his mind. He used a bag. I never met the brother or the mom. But I was at the the service for mom. And the grief was very real. The loss is great. The bfriend is now without his mom or younger brother. That is tragic!



That is a very sad story and unfortunately what happens sometimes.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Heavy Metal

Australian said:


> Thats preety cool.
> Has your Agency ever been taken to court?



In the 42 plus years it has existed no it hasn't... I've been here two years and made a number of changes so we won't end up in court!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Micky said:


> Very touching story.
> 
> I have said all along that this in not necessarily about guns.
> It just so happens that was the weapon of choice in this case.
> It could have been a bomb, poison gas, just about anything.
> 
> It is about the human that could do such a thing.
> 
> So how do you stop this human? How do you prevent this?
> 
> Maybe you can't. But there ARE things you CAN do.
> 
> Like creating a protective zone for kids. Doors that lock from the INSIDE. You don't have a CLUE how many schools don't have these...
> 
> So what if you cannot lock the outside doors or prevent someone who is determined to come in, we should all take a lesson from other countries that have been thru this, like Israel. Protecting yourself needs to be taught just as much as reading, math and english.
> 
> And if it DOES resort to arming yourself against the terrorists, again, take a lesson from Israel. It is a fact that the sad society we live in has turned to shit, but we need to learn to deal with it as best we can.
> 
> Again, it is not so much about guns as it is about protecting ourselves from the inevitable nutcase that is bent on destroying the lives we all cherish.



I agree. But I think one thing we can do is provide a officer on campus at all times when children are present. I know this will be costly. But our elected leaders have trained individuals surrounding them at our expense. I view the life of a child far more precious than our fucked up "leaders". 
While my suggestion is costly, we all pay for it in one form or another now. I would rather have the cost on the front end protecting the children than to have it passed on to us via lost court cases where a family sues the local or state entities.


----------



## 50WPLEXI

I may be a little off here, but why the fuck does ANYONE need a rifle like that in their house. Like so they can shoot at pieces of paper on the weekend with it?

I understand people like to have guns for protection. If someone is in your house intent on doing you harm, a handgun should be more than enough to put them down. 

No one needs an assault rifle in this country for any reason. If you need one that bad, join the military. You can go to the middle east, or some other shit hole and shoot one.


----------



## Micky

longfxukxnhair said:


> I agree. But I think one thing we can do is provide a officer on campus at all times when children are present. I know this will be costly. But our elected leaders have trained individuals surrounding them at our expense. I view the life of a child far more precious than our fucked up "leaders".
> While my suggestion is costly, we all pay for it in one form or another now. I would rather have the cost on the front end protecting the children than to have it passed on to us via lost court cases where a family sues the local or state entities.



Yes, it will be expensive.
In all actuality, the government provided all schools money (should they choose to accept it) for an officer in school. It was a 3-year grant, and schools were expected to pick up the tab after that point. (or let the officer go)
But our fearless leaders are too bent on trying to control guns rather than listen to the professionals that are IN THAT SITUATION, and who are possibly best able to determine what is needed.

Why won't they listen?


----------



## Heavy Metal

longfxukxnhair said:


> Since the conversations seems to center on psychiatrists I want to share a story with you.
> 
> Many months ago my daughter was dating a guy. They have been together for a few yrs so she got to know his family. At least that ones who live in AZ. I am not going to use names for the family members. But I will call them bfriend, brother and mom.
> 
> Sometime leading up to late spring on a Sunday morning I got a call. Briend asked if I can come over and comfort my daughter. It was at that time bfriend told me his brother had killed their mom.
> Before the killing mom was doing everything she could for the brother. Taking him to doctors appts, medicine and spending free time with him. She had taken him to a number of doctors appts. And was at some point involved in the discussion. The brother claimed their were voices in his head. These voices would tell him to kill his mom. The psychiatrists for one reason or another I guess didnt take it as a true threat.
> 
> Well fast forward to late one Saturday night, the mom is trying to leave brothers apt. Brother says "dont leave" and then kills his mom by strangling her to death.
> 
> This brother stayed at my daughters & bfriends apt for 3 days right before this happened. This could have been my daughter and her bfriend that was killed. I dont know. Maybe he was just fixated on killing the mom. Who knows? What caused him to snap? Again, who knows? But a trained professional was involved and it still happened.
> 
> Take from this whatever you want. How it could relate to gun control or how a trained professional was involved and failed the mom. Fact is, he didnt need a gun to carry out what was going on in his mind. He used a bag. I never met the brother or the mom. But I was at the the service for mom. And the grief was very real. The loss is great. The bfriend is now without his mom or younger brother. That is tragic!



When you are in this field, you have to take every threat as serious because you never know when that person will carry out the actions or thoughts in their head. Sad really...


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Heavy Metal said:


> When you are in this field, you have to take every threat as serious because you never know when that person will carry out the actions or thoughts in their head. Sad really...



It is sad. The doctor didnt take it serious and now that healthcare establishment may be facing a lawsuit. But thats up to the family and not really my point here.


----------



## Heavy Metal

longfxukxnhair said:


> It is sad. The doctor didnt take it serious and now that healthcare establishment may be facing a lawsuit. But thats up to the family and not really my point here.



And that is why we take these things serious. You are talking about lives here not idle threats. It seems when people ignore such things is when tragedy strikes. We live in a bizarre world...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Marshall Mann said:


> Sorry FS, I missed you post last night. Can you give me a little more to go on in regards to your question? I'm not sure what kind of sane person kills another with a gun?



Well I was just pondering on the actual more grand picture of deaths that result from a handgun being used. 

The figure on average in the US is 10,000 a year. The figure in the UK is 8. [I'm totally indifferent here, I take neither side, it's just a comparison of two different continents/countries that take different stances on guns, the two extremes if you like].

Mostly the massacres that bring up this whole debate are public mass killings by a deranged fruit loop. 

However, there are thousands of murders that occur when a sane person has a handgun and uses it as an offensive weapon in many, many scenarios. Statistics suggest that death due to someone protecting themselves with a handgun is lower than the offensive kind. 

Robbing a liqueur store, gang murders, disputes etc. 

My point is that this discussion is left alone largely when something like a school shooting happens - when really, surely the entire cake needs to be looked at. in 2010 over 12,000 homicides happened in relation to handguns. 

It's a law [amendment] that enables citizens to kill people way more readily, easily and more frequently. 

I actually take neither stand, I'm totally undecided - although I argue for both sides in debate. I'm pretty indifferent. I enjoy the debate though. 

Like I've said, I'm a hypocrite. I like guns to a degree they fascinate me, some look beautiful, I love their history and the manufacturers, and the different sounds they make.. like an MP5, to a Shotgun, to an UZI etc. 
I've also said if I was living through a great depression type scenario, I'd feel safer owning a gun to protect my house/family etc. 

It might seem like I'm against guns, but only because I find there's more knowledge to extract from folk that support guns, than people that don't. 

I find it intriguing how in 2012, one feels the need to own weapons. 
Different psyches, personalities, demographics, genders, ages, different geography, different IQs... .. all these aspects come into play.. and many different rationales for owning weapons .. protection against tyranny, hunting, homeland security, sports, gun ranges, etc.. 

It's a wide open subject I like - and I like to converse with individuals that can justify them. Guns are a real bittersweet.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Micky said:


> Yes, it will be expensive.
> In all actuality, the government provided all schools money (should they choose to accept it) for an officer in school. It was a 3-year grant, and schools were expected to pick up the tab after that point. (or let the officer go)
> But our fearless leaders are too bent on trying to control guns rather than listen to the professionals that are IN THAT SITUATION, and who are possibly best able to determine what is needed.
> 
> Why won't they listen?



Good point.

I think there are a number of "leaders" who are using this and other events like this to control guns. That is shameless.

It doesnt matter if you are considered right or left. We have moved into a point where both sides are authoritarian. Which really makes this point in time authoritarian vs libertarian. Just most buy into the right vs left paradigm. It keeps us divided.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well I was just pondering on the actual more grand picture of deaths that result from a handgun being used.
> 
> The figure on average in the US is 10,000 a year. The figure in the UK is 8. [I'm totally indifferent here, I take neither side, it's just a comparison of two different continents/countries that take different stances on guns, the two extremes if you like].
> 
> Mostly the massacres that bring up this whole debate are public mass killings by a deranged fruit loop.
> 
> However, there are thousands of murders that occur when a sane person has a handgun and uses it as an offensive weapon in many, many scenarios. Statistics suggest that death due to someone protecting themselves with a handgun is lower than the offensive kind.
> 
> Robbing a liqueur store, gang murders, disputes etc.
> 
> My point is that this discussion is left alone largely when something like a school shooting happens - when really, surely the entire cake needs to be looked at. in 2010 over 12,000 homicides happened in relation to handguns.
> 
> It's a law [amendment] that enables citizens to kill people way more readily, easily and more frequently.
> 
> I actually take neither stand, I'm totally undecided - although I argue for both sides in debate. I'm pretty indifferent. I enjoy the debate though.
> 
> Like I've said, I'm a hypocrite. I like guns to a degree they fascinate me, some look beautiful, I love their history and the manufacturers, and the different sounds they make.. like an MP5, to a Shotgun, to an UZI etc.
> I've also said if I was living through a great depression type scenario, I'd feel safer owning a gun to protect my house/family etc.
> 
> It might seem like I'm against guns, but only because I find there's more knowledge to extract from folk that support guns, than people that don't.
> 
> I find it intriguing how in 2012, one feels the need to own weapons.
> Different psyches, personalities, demographics, genders, ages, different geography, different IQs... .. all these aspects come into play.. and many different rationales for owning weapons .. protection against tyranny, hunting, homeland security, sports, gun ranges, etc..
> 
> It's a wide open subject I like - and I like to converse with individuals that can justify them. Guns are a real bittersweet.



To make for a fair discussion, how many deaths/killings happened without the aid of a gun?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> To make for a fair discussion, how many deaths/killings happened without the aid of a gun?



I don't know, this is just about handguns though.  
The article used by the killer and the weapon used that causes 34 murders a day in the US. 

I'm just wondering whether the law justifies the amount of grief. It seems that your society can't be trusted with guns.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I don't know, this is just about handguns though.
> The article used by the killer and the weapon used that causes 34 murders a day in the US.
> 
> I'm just wondering whether the law justifies the amount of grief. It seems that your society can't be trusted with guns.



Without the other data its not a true discussion. Its one sided. Information is cherry picked. I know you are only asking the question and the source isnt yours. But to put it in its proper context we need to know what all the data is. For example: Say 112,000 people are killed a year. 10,000 are from guns (as claimed) but another 85,00 die from stabbing/strangulation/automotive assisted murders etc. Then your statement might be our society cant be trusted.


----------



## scat7s

> If you need one that bad, join the military. You can go to the middle east, or some other shit hole and shoot one.


 
yep, you can shoot at the brown folk all day long. no one cares if they eat bullets.


----------



## scat7s

> Yes, it will be expensive.
> In all actuality, the government provided all schools money (should they choose to accept it) for an officer in school. It was a 3-year grant, and schools were expected to pick up the tab after that point. (or let the officer go)
> But our fearless leaders are too bent on trying to control guns rather than listen to the professionals that are IN THAT SITUATION, and who are possibly best able to determine what is needed.
> 
> Why won't they listen?


 
they are listening. 

they control the narrative and when the people respond in their predictable and expected way, they act. 

i may be mistaken in my timeline here, but didnt the batman shooting happen during the last 'fiscal cliff' episode over the summer? off the track, i know, but its an effective distraction...mass murder.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Without the other data its not a true discussion. Its one sided. Information is cherry picked. I know you are only asking the question and the source isnt yours. But to put it in its proper context we need to know what all the data is. For example: Say 112,000 people are killed a year. 10,000 are from guns (as claimed) but another 85,00 die from stabbing/strangulation/automotive assisted murders etc. Then your statement might be our society cant be trusted.



If you don't isolate data and take theory from it, you'd go off on tangents. 

I ask if the 2cd amendment is worth 10,000 lives a year. 

That could be greatly reduced. 

Fact is, countries that have tight gun control have less homicides.


----------



## blues_n_cues

for the Englishman on my ignore list that would rather argue & judge than learn,here's some light reading.

it's from 2004 but the main points are still there-

https://gunowners.org/fs0404.htm


----------



## SmokeyDopey

scat7s said:


> yep, you can shoot at the brown folk all day long. no one cares if they eat bullets.


 
It's the American way!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> It's the American way!



 

I carry that sentiment too.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Man, the media is strong...
27 fucking pages on the forum! And you can almost feel the negativity and stress in the air.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It seems that your society can't be trusted with guns.



That's a very subjective statement so let's subject it to the factual reality of comparing the U.S. to other countries. 
Actually, the evidence suggests quite the opposite.
Despite being so seemingly heavily armed, when looking at the world murder rate per 100k population, the U.S. isn't even in the top 100 countries.

Additionally, some of those countries rating many more murders per 100k have much stricter gun laws than the U.S.

If the U.S. society can't be trusted with guns, wouldn't they have a higher murder rate than the many countries with stricter gun laws?

So it seems the opposite of your statement would be more representative of the facts.
You should get your facts straight before forming such an opinion.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> If you don't isolate data and take theory from it, you'd go off on tangents.
> 
> I ask if the 2cd amendment is worth 10,000 lives a year.
> 
> That could be greatly reduced.
> 
> Fact is, countries that have tight gun control have less homicides.



Think of all the lives that have paid the ultimate price to protect the 2nd amendment. Which way it the correct way to view it?
Also, if I were to view it in your terms, then why stop at guns? Lets remove all cars as they contribute to deaths. Lets remove booze. Surely deaths are attributed to that as well? Lets remove drugs.............thats right, they tried that and it doesnt work.
Its not a perfect world and there isnt nor will there ever be a utopia. The human element is always the "X" factor. It has been that way since the start of time and will be that way til the end of time.


----------



## scat7s

thank you brp, 

i dont know how many times ive posted graphs charts and statistics. 

if they dont fit the profile, they are apparently ignored.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Fact is, countries that have tight gun control have less homicides.



You state that as fact. Do you have sources/links that we can all view for ourselves?


----------



## scat7s

super, in case you missed this...take it into consideration. 


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuLgO4wo4xI&NR=1&feature=endscreen]Portland Mall Shooter Stopped by CCW holder, Media lies by omission. - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

I think I've just about reached my verdict on the gun thing in the US. 

I don't think anything should change in the US. It should just stay exactly the same. 
The amount of guns readily available to citizens, even those that are careless with them, is worth it. 

Because the US largely stands for freedom and flag and the independence and right to defend oneself, it's only right you're allowed to posses weapons. 

Fair play. I still think the statistics are harrowing, but that's a small price to pay for such an important right. 

It's your favourite toy, and you won't put it down. 

I'm out - I'm done! I'm through! You've taught me the importance of the Bill of Rights and the constitution. 

I will say one thing however, many of you jump to a lot conclusions about individuals that even bother to question the theory of owning guns. Just saying.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm just wondering whether the law justifies the amount of grief. It seems that your society can't be trusted with guns.



Isn't it so that your society can't be trusted with knives?
Read UK news for a change 

And then there's my own Dutch society of course.

I live in a town of about 90.000.
8 murders so far this year. One was killed with a firearm. In one case the victim was kicked to death by a mob, all the others with knives.

Further 4 people died courtesy of the police. 
3 of them with firearms.
In all of those cases where the police were involved the "victims" concerned were long overdue for cleanup anyway.
Not blaming the police there at all. On the contrary

This is no different in other towns in the Netherlands but somehow blatantly in contrast with the official figures.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> You state that as fact. Do you have sources/links that we can all view for ourselves?



I've posted many links in this thread.. going over the same old ground. 
It is a fact that countries with tighter gun laws have less homicides.


----------



## brp

longfxukxnhair said:


> You state that as fact. Do you have sources/links that we can all view for ourselves?




His statement is true for SOME countries but he states it as though any country with tighter control has less homicide and that is far from the truth.
As I said, that's not even remotely true.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> Isn't it so that your society can't be trusted with knives?
> Read UK news for a change
> 
> And then there's my own Dutch society of course.
> 
> I live in a town of about 90.000.
> 8 murders so far this year. One was killed with a firearm. In one case the victim was kicked to death by a mob, all the others with knives.
> 
> Further 4 people died courtesy of the police.
> 3 of them with firearms.
> In all of those cases where the police were involved the "victims" concerned were long overdue for cleanup anyway.
> Not blaming the police there at all. On the contrary
> 
> This is no different in other towns in the Netherlands but somehow blatantly in contrast with the official figures.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



yeah good points... London is horrible. I blame immigration and certain demographics for knife crime. the statistics are there too. but that's another debate. 

I'm not a fundamentalist believer in all eradications of guns.... people seem to think I'm either or.. when really I'm just asking questions. 

Oh well fuck it.. seems to me people blow a gasket over this shit. Ultimately I don't care.. it's just debate for debates sake, which I enjoy, .. but DAYUM billy bob jo frank......


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> It is a fact that countries with tighter gun laws have less homicides.



You're playing semantics. There are countries with tighter laws that have less homicides but it is far from true that any country with stricter laws has less homicides.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> His statement is true for SOME countries but he states it as though any country with tighter control has less homicide and that is far from the truth.
> As I said, that's not even remotely true.



Most actually.. all of Europe! 

Countries with less gun control like Mexico has on average 28,000 homicides per annum due to handguns.. 

There is correlation in statistics and law. 

Just saying.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> You're playing semantics. There are countries with tighter laws that have less homicides but it is far from true that any country with stricter laws has less homicides.



Google some government statistics on that and post them back here.  

I'm not trying to be a dick - I just want to know!


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I've posted many links in this thread.. going over the same old ground.
> It is a fact that countries with tighter gun laws have less homicides.


 
you (like many others) ignore the "per capita" element, as well as the hundreds of nations that have significantly higher numbers, as brp has pointed out.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I think I've just about reached my verdict on the gun thing in the US.
> 
> I don't think anything should change in the US. It should just stay exactly the same.
> The amount of guns readily available to citizens, even those that are careless with them, is worth it.
> 
> Because the US largely stands for freedom and flag and the independence and right to defend oneself, it's only right you're allowed to posses weapons.
> 
> Fair play. I still think the statistics are harrowing, but that's a small price to pay for such an important right.
> 
> It's your favourite toy, and you won't put it down.
> 
> I'm out - I'm done! I'm through! You've taught me the importance of the Bill of Rights and the constitution.
> 
> I will say one thing however, many of you jump to a lot conclusions about individuals that even bother to question the theory of owning guns. Just saying.



we have taught you nothing. If someone reads your posts list in your profile, from your beginning here you stay mostly in political threads & have a hard on for America.,pure & simple.

we live in THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ,no matter how screwed up it is & you can't stand it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I've posted many links in this thread.. going over the same old ground.
> It is a fact that countries with tighter gun laws have less homicides.



You might have posted such links. I dont know. But I am asking you to back up your most recent claim. Either you will or you wont.
I asked you to put the whole discussion in proper context with a overall on murder in America. You arent/werent willing to do so. You only want to cherry pick the data for the discussion that fits the discussion you want to be part of. Omission of all data does not give way to a honest and true discussion. With all data it my strengthen and prove my earlier point that guns arent the issue. Humans are the real issue. Tackling only part of the issue (guns) is putting only a bandaid over the real cause. It does not treat the real problem.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> we have taught you nothing. If someone reads your posts list in your profile, from your beginning here you stay mostly in political threads & have a hard on for America.,pure & simple.



Of course, when studying any matter you have to be very critical and challenge laws, people and stats! 

There's no room for Mr. nice when figuring out such a thing. 

I actually sympathize with and support mostly everyone's arguments here.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> yeah good points... London is horrible. I blame immigration and certain demographics for knife crime. the statistics are there too. but that's another debate.



_Demographics? Naaaaaah, that really has nothing to do with it_




Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Google some government statistics on that and post them back here.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a dick - I just want to know!



But how about you google it before saying who seems like they can't be trusted. Trusted compared to WHO?

Google world murder rate per capita and see the U.S. at #105 and then look at the countries rating higher, then pick a few and research their gun control laws. You'll quickly see what I'm telling you.
Don't ask me to research to disprove your statement that was based on zero useable evidence nor cited any relevant sources, I already have and yet it's you who has not.


----------



## Chriphery

In the past 2 years there were bomb scares at my college, so now there are protective electronic locks that only staff members can unlock with a card they're given. 

Although, in the UK gun crime is rarely seen, this past week a women was held at gunpoint and told to go to the nearest ATM and get out money. 
She lives just up my road, i've walked past her house everyday for close enough 6 years. 
Kinda scary that this shit happens in a quietest of towns.

Anyways, anyone who is insensitive enough to make jokes about these shootings should be sentenced themselves in my opinion, when it comes to women and children, they should not be harmed.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> yeah good points... London is horrible. I blame immigration and certain demographics for knife crime.



Blame what you want to blame. If what was said is true, then its happening in your neck of the woods. By your statement, do you take away knives or do you do something about immigration?


----------



## paul-e-mann

Had a strange thought. Who will bury the shooter, or be responsible for the cost, will anybody attend his funeral, will he even have one, or will he just be incinerated by the state and poured down the drain? He deserves less than that....


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Blokkadeleider said:


> Isn't it so that your society can't be trusted with knives?
> Read UK news for a change
> 
> And then there's my own Dutch society of course.
> 
> I live in a town of about 90.000.
> 8 murders so far this year. One was killed with a firearm. In one case the victim was kicked to death by a mob, all the others with knives.
> 
> Further 4 people died courtesy of the police.
> 3 of them with firearms.
> In all of those cases where the police were involved the "victims" concerned were long overdue for cleanup anyway.
> Not blaming the police there at all. On the contrary
> 
> This is no different in other towns in the Netherlands but somehow blatantly in contrast with the official figures.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Perhaps some kind of leg restraints should be a requirement for leaving the home. Something tied between your feet which permits you to walk, but not extend your foot far enough to kick? Clearly, being kicked / stomped to death could turn into an epidemic if not monitored closely. We need a commission to study this, and the appointment of a czar, to follow through w/a plan of action.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

pedecamp said:


> Had a strange thought. Who will bury the shooter, or be responsible for the cost, will anybody attend his funeral, will he even have one, or will he just be incinerated by the state and poured down the drain? He deserves less than that....



The anabaptists were hung in cages by the tower of the cathedral of Münster back in the 1600's.






Maybe a good idea for those WBC guys too 


Gr,

Gerrit.

*I admit we're a bit barbaric here in the lowlands.


----------



## scat7s

crossroadsnyc said:


> Perhaps some kind of leg restraints should be a requirement for leaving the home. Something tied between your feet which permits you to walk, but not extend your foot far enough to kick? Clearly, being kicked / stomped to death could turn into an epidemic if not monitored closely. We need a commission to study this, and the appointment of a czar, to follow through w/a plan of action.


 

dripping....


----------



## Blokkadeleider

crossroadsnyc said:


> Perhaps some kind of leg restraints should be a requirement for leaving the home. Something tied between your feet which permits you to walk, but not extend your foot far enough to kick? Clearly, being kicked / stomped to death could turn into an epidemic if not monitored closely. We need a commission to study this, and the appointment of a czar, to follow through w/a plan of action.



Oh yes. I am very much in favour of that.
Feet and hands should be banned. They can kill. They can make tools to kill. 
They have no place in civilized society! 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## scat7s

our freinds down under...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p8RDWltHxRc


----------



## 4STICKS

scat7s said:


> our freinds down under...
> 
> Watch what happens when Guns are banned in Australia - YouTube



Damn. Just...Damn! Pretty scary. And BTW... Can't define a fuckin home invasion!!?? Give me a break.


----------



## scat7s

4STICKS said:


> Damn. Just...Damn! Pretty scary. And BTW... Can't define a fuckin home invasion!!?? Give me a break.


 
home invasion is among the most heinous of crimes imo.


----------



## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> we have taught you nothing. If someone reads your posts list in your profile, from your beginning here you stay mostly in political threads & have a hard on for America.,pure & simple.
> 
> we live in THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD ,no matter how screwed up it is & you can't stand it.



Wave that flag! Wal-Mart! McDonalds! Nascar! Obesity! Fuck yeah!


----------



## crossroadsnyc

scat7s said:


> our freinds down under...
> 
> Watch what happens when Guns are banned in Australia - YouTube



What's so scary about that, is that they are just learning about home invasions ... I suppose all I can say is strap yourself in for a whole new reality.


----------



## scat7s

right? 

a couple yrs ago, locally, we seemed to have a wave of them for a while. i rarely let the news get me rattled, but that was one occasion i got sucked in a bit...

i guess the bright side, is that from what ive seen locally, most times home invasions are carried out by people looking for money or drugs, and often the victims themselves are drug dealers. 

thats not always the case obviously, but often times.


----------



## blues_n_cues

pedecamp said:


> Had a strange thought. Who will bury the shooter, or be responsible for the cost, will anybody attend his funeral, will he even have one, or will he just be incinerated by the state and poured down the drain? He deserves less than that....



I'm sure his dad will. that guy has to live w/ this for the rest of his life.


----------



## diesect20022000

blues_n_cues said:


> I'm sure his dad will. that guy has to live w/ this for the rest of his life.


 maybe that's what it was about? weird thought but just MAYBE...


----------



## brp

diesect20022000 said:


> maybe that's what it was about? weird thought but just MAYBE...



Quite possibly.


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> our freinds down under...
> 
> Watch what happens when Guns are banned in Australia - YouTube



I won't waste my time replying, we went down this path the last mass shooting in the USA thread. 

"a man hears what he wants too hear and disregards the rest"...S&G


Peace and GL....


----------



## Reckless_Life

brp said:


> You're playing semantics. There are countries with tighter laws that have less homicides but it is far from true that any country with stricter laws has less homicides.



So what are you saying? That if a tight gun law doesn't work as well in every country that a country like the States shouldn't be looking at the problem and applying such law?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Blame what you want to blame. If what was said is true, then its happening in your neck of the woods. By your statement, do you take away knives or do you do something about immigration?



Yes carrying a knife is illegal. If I carried a kitchen knife in my back pocket in public, I'm committing crime. That's the law here. 

If I'd bought it from the shop, you have to be 18+ and it was in its packaging and in a carrier bag, that's cool. But to be in possession of one in a non-kitchen environment, it's illegal.

About immigration. The country I live in is totally fucked now and it's irreversible. London is a horrible place. The labour government over here has fucked it for English people. 

In fact to be a white Englishman and have conservative views, you're deemed a bigoted, homophobic racist, by the liberal propaganda and bias.


----------



## brp

Reckless_Life said:


> So what are you saying? That if a tight gun law doesn't work as well in every country that a country like the States shouldn't be looking at the problem and applying such law?






No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying exactly the counter to the opinion stated that I was addressing; 
relatively speaking, U.S. society at large can be trusted with guns, as the stats I cited demonstrate.


But to your question, I have to say that the fact that there are already many gun control restrictions not being enforced should be highly pertinent in any conversation about new gun control legislation.

Additionally, even since the expiry of the U.S. "assault weapons ban" in 2004, gun crime has steadily declined.

I'm not saying renewing such a ban is a terrible idea but then again it could very well work to the exact opposite of the point, that being the safety of law abiding citizens.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> useable evidence nor cited any relevant sources, I already have and yet it's you who has not.



I've given stats from 'gun violence in the US' websites. Shall I post them? 

My questions and arguments aren't based on thin air lol


----------



## Reckless_Life

longfxukxnhair said:


> You state that as fact. Do you have sources/links that we can all view for ourselves?



It's called common sense 

Having said that, it's a shame that some people still need sources and links and whatever, to question what is being said, especially when there's yet another massacre with little children in a school.


----------



## CaptainZero

Söulcaster said:


> I won't waste my time replying, we went down this path the last mass shooting in the USA thread.
> 
> "a man hears what he wants too hear and disregards the rest"...S&G
> 
> 
> Peace and GL....



I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. This seems like a likely result, unless the media twisted the shit out of the numbers, which is possible, but would typically trend in the other direction.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Got it?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_According to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, between 2006 and 2010 47,856 people were murdered in the U.S. by firearms, more than twice as many as were killed by all other means combined._

Guns in America, a Statistical Look - ABC News


----------



## Feeling Supersonic




----------



## Feeling Supersonic




----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Doing The Math On Guns | Neon Tommy


----------



## brp

Neither of those stats back up the opinion you stated that I was addressing and the specific statement that Longhair was asking you to support with sources; 
the statement that the U.S. seems untrustworthy with guns, which is a relative statement that must be compared to the everyone other than the U.S. to be quantified and when doing so doesn't hold up to the demonstrable facts.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic




----------



## scat7s

Söulcaster said:


> I won't waste my time replying, we went down this path the last mass shooting in the USA thread.
> 
> "a man hears what he wants too hear and disregards the rest"...S&G
> 
> 
> Peace and GL....


 
i dont disregard the opposing argument, my opinion is that it is flawed, and in the longterm, big picture aspect, a mistake. 

i tend to take a longview on things of this nature. its seems many do not. they want "something" done right away. 

feelgood nonsense. it wont bring anyone back. 

and for those who doubt liberty and freedom to protect oneself from ANY potential and real threat is not on the table here, imo, should take a closer look at world history, politics and the trajectory laid out in front of us.


----------



## Söulcaster

CaptainZero said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't get what you mean. This seems like a likely result, unless the media twisted the shit out of the numbers, which is possible, but would typically trend in the other direction.



Gun control has been an overwhelming success. If someone is shot or home invaded you can betchya bottom dollar they are involved in organized crime on some level. 

The average honest Australian has nothing to fear, you have a greater chance of getting hit by a drop bear...,,,they're nasty.

It was cool NRA video though, very dramatic. Just doesn't reflect the reality of the situation.

Peace


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Neither of those stats back up the opinion you stated that I was addressing and the specific statement that Longhair was asking you to support with sources;
> the statement that the U.S. seems untrustworthy with guns, which is a relative statement that must be compared to the everyone other than the U.S. to be quantified and when doing so doesn't hold up to the demonstrable facts.



"seems" 

Let's define that term, 

seem |sēm|
verb [ intrans. ]
give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality :


I said it 'seems', correct. I didn't say it as a fact. 

My correlation is this. 

The country with the most lapse gun laws and most guns per 100 people, has the most homicide rates. 

With stats, this is proven correct.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


>



But those are only the legal guns.
How many illegal guns do you think there are.
These things are not in statistics, simply because no reliable figures exist.
Thousands of automatic rifles disappeared in the Netherlands alone over the last 20 years. They were supposed to be in army storages and they have "vanished".

I know nobody in my surrounding who could not have a nice assault rifle in their hand within 45 minutes.
None of them drives off to the storage (yes, illegal) to get their gun and solve the problem they just may have had with someone.
So... that means it is something else. Not specifically to do with gun ownership.

And then of course we like to do things quietly. Guns are too noisy. Attract attention, not good if you're up to no good.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## blues_n_cues

here's another little fun factoid about assault weapons ban misinformation-
I had a semi automatic military rifle (the term assault rifle is soooo incorrect)
and because of the overall length w/ the stock folded I had to register it as a handgun. so the assault weapons ban did not cover it.
here is the exact weapon-
GENERAL MOTORS M 1 CARBINE - Military Rifles US


nevermind the fact that it couldn't be concealed easily & jammed every 3rd round because you can't get NATO spec .30 ammo for it in just any ol' Walmart.
so is it worse than a .25 pistol that is just as deadly & can be concealed in your front pocket or change purse???


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


>



the fucking united nations....more like the united freeloaders who don't pay rent or electric in NYC


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> "seems"
> 
> Let's define that term,
> 
> seem |sēm|
> verb [ intrans. ]
> give the impression or sensation of being something or having a particular quality :
> 
> 
> I said it 'seems', correct. I didn't say it as a fact.



Yes I get that and I was very careful to not misquote or give the impression that you were stating a fact. I was merely illustrating how that impression that you have is simply not supported by the reality.
Your own graphs show this; despite having many times more guns than many countries, the homicide rate is not an equal multiplication of that of those countries and in fact is in no way even close to being on par with those countries when factoring in how many more guns are in play. Thusly, the U.S. actually seems quite trustworthy with guns in comparison to other places where there are guns.


----------



## scat7s

march 2012

Home invasions the new 'fad' | thetelegraph.com.au

according to another article i read, contrary to my own belief, and your assertion, 68% of home invasions are people who do not know each other. 

and the highest statistical victim, is the elderly.

predators prey on the weak


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> the fucking united nations....more like the united freeloaders who don't pay rent or electric in NYC



 

Nothing will change in the US with guns, you'll always be allowed them.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Yes I get that and I was very careful to not misquote or give the impression that you were stating a fact. I was merely illustrating how that impression that you have is simply not supported by the reality.
> Your own graphs show this; despite having many times more guns than many countries, the homicide rate is not an equal multiplication of that of those countries and in fact is in no way even close to being on par with those countries when factoring in how many more guns are in play. Thusly, the U.S. actually seems quite trustworthy with guns in comparison to other places where there are guns.



Dude are you off your rocker? 

It is a fact that if a country has lapse gun control, not only are gun homicides the most common, but homicides in general [mostly with guns] bolster that statistic of homicides above and beyond countries with tighter gun control. 

And the reason is because killing is easy with a handgun, more people have a means of murder. 

This is not my opinion, this is a dam fact!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Yes carrying a knife is illegal. If I carried a kitchen knife in my back pocket in public, I'm committing crime. That's the law here.
> 
> If I'd bought it from the shop, you have to be 18+ and it was in its packaging and in a carrier bag, that's cool. But to be in possession of one in a non-kitchen environment, it's illegal.
> 
> About immigration. The country I live in is totally fucked now and it's irreversible. London is a horrible place. The labour government over here has fucked it for English people.
> 
> In fact to be a white Englishman and have conservative views, you're deemed a bigoted, homophobic racist, by the liberal propaganda and bias.



So how do you fix the problem? More laws regarding knives or do you address the heart of the problem? Which you stated was immigration?

And it seems your countrys views on conservatism is the same as those in America.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Nothing will change in the US with guns, you'll always be allowed them.



you're damn skippy we will.the 2nd amendment and all the legal gun owners guarantee that.


----------



## brp

Pragmatically, at this point the worst thing that could happen regarding the safety of the average U.S. citizen with respect to gun violence would be to abolish legal gun possession and round up every legally owned gun in the country, in my opinion.

Now if you could effectively round up every illegally possessed gun, that's another story but again, pragmatically.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Reckless_Life said:


> It's called common sense
> 
> Having said that, it's a shame that some people still need sources and links and whatever, to question what is being said, especially when there's yet another massacre with little children in a school.



Common sense? Really? You just went there? I didnt make the claim. He did. Am I not allowed to ask for a source if we are to have an honest debate? Seems like it is you who is lacking not only in common sense but tolerance as well.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> So how do you fix the problem? More laws regarding knives or do you address the heart of the problem? Which you stated was immigration?
> 
> And it seems your countrys views on conservatism is the same as those in America.



Knife crime has been reduced by increasing sentencing in prisons for being caught in possession. 

Of course every country has crime, knives are used everywhere. If you add guns though, more people die as a result. It's a statistical correlation that's evidently so. There's no opinion, ifs or buts about it. It's a straight fact. 

In London there's so many gangs and so many stabbings. It seems people of Jamaican decent love knives for some reason.. 

I hate immigration on the scale that's happened here. I don't mind decent and fair immigration, but over here we let anyone in.. rapists, pedophiles, criminals etc. 1 million illegals too.. 

London is unrecognizable in most places. English is the second language to a huge percent. 

I hate it ... the Royal Family are stupid and the owners of this country, sold it a long time ago....


----------



## scat7s

is it illegal to carry any knife? or only large knives?


----------



## Söulcaster

scat7s said:


> march 2012
> 
> Home invasions the new 'fad' | thetelegraph.com.au
> 
> according to another article i read, contrary to my own belief, and your assertion, 68% of home invasions are people who do not know each other.
> 
> and the highest statistical victim, is the elderly.
> 
> predators prey on the weak



Criminals tend not to tell police they stole my pill press and drug money....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Pragmatically, at this point the worst thing that could happen regarding the safety of the average U.S. citizen with respect to gun violence would be to abolish legal gun possession and round up every legally owned gun in the country, in my opinion.
> 
> Now if you could effectively round up every illegally possessed gun, that's another story but again, pragmatically.



Impossible! the Bill of Rights won't be changed... 

Also, it would cost a bomb to reverse the law. 

The market for guns, ammunition etc. is a massive money maker for your economy. It's massive business...


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Impossible! the Bill of Rights won't be changed...
> 
> Also, it would cost a bomb to reverse the law.
> 
> The market for guns, ammunition etc. is a massive money maker for your economy. It's massive business...



so is gas & cow shit-
Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun. He killed 168 people, killed 19 children under age 6, injured over 680 innocent people. You can still buy fertilizer. You can still buy racing fuel. You can still rent box trucks. Murderers will murder with or without a gun. Guns are not the problem.


----------



## Reckless_Life

brp said:


> Thusly, the U.S. actually seems quite trustworthy with guns in comparison to other places where there are guns.



If you have been following news lately, and keeping the topic in mind, that's hilarious what you are saying now.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> Guns are not the problem.



Well according to statistics, handguns cause your most homicide rates, and by a massive mark up. 

Homicide is big in the US, and handgun related homicides are the biggest stat. 

It proves that handguns kill the most amount of people and murderers weapon of choice is a handgun. 

I'm saying ban handguns, it's just a statistical fact.


----------



## brp

Reckless_Life said:


> If you have been following news lately, and keeping the topic in mind, that's hilarious what you are saying now.



It shouldn't be that difficult for you to provide evidence to the contrary then.....


----------



## Reckless_Life

brp said:


> It shouldn't be that difficult for you to provide evidence to the contrary then.....



There's been a school shooting in the US and you say the US actually seems quite trustworthy with guns. I think that's hilarious and quite inappropriate given the recent events, and no I do not have a graph for that.

But feel free to post some graphs and sources for the things that you are saying. Because the only thing you seem to be doing is demand sources and graphs from people who say something that doesn't fit in your picture.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Reckless_Life said:


> There's been a school shooting in the US and you say the US actually seems quite trustworthy with guns. I think that's hilarious and quite inappropriate given the recent events, and no I do not have a graph for that.
> 
> But feel free to post some graphs and sources for the things that you are saying. Because the only thing you seem to be doing is demand sources and graphs from people who say something that something doesn't fit in your picture.



Are you saying there are fire arm massacres in the US because of their gun laws? -


----------



## SonVolt

Feeling Supersonic said:


> London is unrecognizable in most places. English is the second language to a huge percent.
> 
> I hate it ... the Royal Family are stupid and the owners of this country, sold it a long time ago....




Well at least the US Republican Party isn't alone in it's disdain for illegal immigrants. "Let them have the jobs the blacks won't take!" they say... whatever, jobs are jobs and you're adding non-contributing (ie, poor) members of society to an already overburdened system.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SonVolt said:


> Well at least the US Republican Party isn't alone in it's disdain for illegal immigrants. "Let them have the jobs the blacks won't take!" they say... whatever, jobs are jobs and you're adding non-contributing (ie, poor) members of society to an already overburdened system.



It's total shit isn't it!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

First off I want to say how tragic this is. I cant wrap my mind around why anyone would kill a bunch of kids. Or even one kid for that matter. Truly sad. If it doesnt break your heart on some level then your not human.
I wish the gunman would have survived. I want complete and total justice for this. I want answers. But hes not around to give them because he is a chicken shit punk. I shouldnt say I want him to burn in hell but.........

Ok, heres my belief.
The founding fathers drafted all our founding docs as they are now for a reason(s). Of course all of it was based on a number of things, events and belief system(s). There is also a reason why the amendments are in the order they are in. Right now I am talking about amendments 1 and 2. Both were designed/created/written to help keep our govt in check. To help us keep control of the American govt. Are there any Americans reading this now who believes we are in control of our govt? Do you believe they serve us? 
I am not going to get into a huge history lesson. The founding father tried to give us the best form of govt. And they put safeguards in place to help us do that. The media was suppose to be the watch dog but they are a lap dog. So they have failed us. The founders knew every form of govt overtime becomes tyrannical and oppressive. They learned this not only from history but experience. I believe 100% that they knew what they were talking about then and I believe 100% it still holds true now. I love my country but I do not trust my govt. In fact, I ashamed of my govt and have been for many years. Not just since Obama took office. 
I believe if Americans are disarmed our govt will run overtop of its citizens. I firmly 100% believe that. I also believe this has wide spread ramifications for the rest of the world. There have been many over the last 100 yrs who have stated the single biggest hurdle to a world govt has been our founding documents.
And the U.N? Fuck the U.N. They are concerned with making the world better? They only want to control it.


----------



## scat7s

i work as a mechanical and electronics repair person. 

as an example (and a real one that is very very common) and you can find many examples of that on the forum workbench as well, when a temperature chamber in our factory stops heating, what do you suppose is the first and most likely suspect? 

to an inexperienced technician or an operator, their first instinct might be "gotta replace the heater" 

the chamber doesnt heat, so it must be the heater. when the fact is, that is likely the last place to look. 

when your car doesnt start, do you buy a new starter? do you buy a new key? a new engine? no, you investigate and identify the root cause.


----------



## scat7s

btw, i just heard on the news, the mom was petitioning the court to have this kid locked up, he knew about her plans, and this was his motive.

unconfirmed by authorities at this time but...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> First off I want to say how tragic this is. I cant wrap my mind around why anyone would kill a bunch of kids. Or even one kid for that matter. Truly sad. If it doesnt break your heart on some level then your not human.
> I wish the gunman would have survived. I want complete and total justice for this. I want answers. But hes not around to give them because he is a chicken shit punk. I shouldnt say I want him to burn in hell but.........
> 
> Ok, heres my belief.
> The founding fathers drafted all our founding docs as they are now for a reason(s). Of course all of it was based on a number of things, events and belief system(s). There is also a reason why the amendments are in the order they are in. Right now I am talking about amendments 1 and 2. Both were designed/created/written to help keep our govt in check. To help us keep control of the American govt. Are there any Americans reading this now who believes we are in control of our govt? Do you believe they serve us?
> I am not going to get into a huge history lesson. The founding father tried to give us the best form of govt. And they put safeguards in place to help us do that. The media was suppose to be the watch dog but they are a lap dog. So they have failed us. The founders knew every form of govt overtime becomes tyrannical and oppressive. They learned this not only from history but experience. I believe 100% that they knew what they were talking about then and I believe 100% it still holds true now. I love my country but I do not trust my govt. In fact, I ashamed of my govt and have been for many years. Not just since Obama took office.
> I believe if Americans are disarmed our govt will run overtop of its citizens. I firmly 100% believe that. I also believe this has wide spread ramifications for the rest of the world. There have been many over the last 100 yrs who have stated the single biggest hurdle to a world govt has been our founding documents.
> And the U.N? Fuck the U.N. They are concerned with making the world better? They only want to control it.



I'm not challenging you here, but I feel the same about my government - yet I don't need to own guns to protect myself from it. Even if we had a Bill of Rights here, I still wouldn't own one. 

Do you personally own guns?
Are you threatened by your government? 
Are you scared of it?


----------



## 4STICKS

longfxukxnhair said:


> First off I want to say how tragic this is. I cant wrap my mind around why anyone would kill a bunch of kids. Or even one kid for that matter. Truly sad. If it doesnt break your heart on some level then your not human.
> I wish the gunman would have survived. I want complete and total justice for this. I want answers. But hes not around to give them because he is a chicken shit punk. I shouldnt say I want him to burn in hell but.........
> 
> Ok, heres my belief.
> The founding fathers drafted all our founding docs as they are now for a reason(s). Of course all of it was based on a number of things, events and belief system(s). There is also a reason why the amendments are in the order they are in. Right now I am talking about amendments 1 and 2. Both were designed/created/written to help keep our govt in check. To help us keep control of the American govt. Are there any Americans reading this now who believes we are in control of our govt? Do you believe they serve us?
> I am not going to get into a huge history lesson. The founding father tried to give us the best form of govt. And they put safeguards in place to help us do that. The media was suppose to be the watch dog but they are a lap dog. So they have failed us. The founders knew every form of govt overtime becomes tyrannical and oppressive. They learned this not only from history but experience. I believe 100% that they knew what they were talking about then and I believe 100% it still holds true now. I love my country but I do not trust my govt. In fact, I ashamed of my govt and have been for many years. Not just since Obama took office.
> I believe if Americans are disarmed our govt will run overtop of its citizens. I firmly 100% believe that. I also believe this has wide spread ramifications for the rest of the world. There have been many over the last 100 yrs who have stated the single biggest hurdle to a world govt has been our founding documents.
> And the U.N? Fuck the U.N. They are concerned with making the world better? They only want to control it.



Unknown person on the street: What kind of government did you give us?

"A republic, if you can keep it."
Ben Franklin


----------



## scat7s

its an effective tactic called 'deterrence' super

it has a long history...its proven to work.


----------



## 4STICKS

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm not challenging you here, but I feel the same about my government - yet I don't need to own guns to protect myself from it. Even if we had a Bill of Rights here, I still wouldn't own one.
> 
> Do you personally own guns?
> Are you threatened by your government?
> Are you scared of it?



Yes
Yes
and yes.
Too fuckin big and too fuckin all consuming.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> its an effective tactic called 'deterrence' super
> 
> it has a long history...its proven to work.



More guns in a country = more homicide 

This is fact.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

scat7s said:


> btw, i just heard on the news, the mom was petitioning the court to have this kid locked up, he knew about her plans, and this was his motive.
> 
> unconfirmed by authorities at this time but...



I was _just_ reading that ... 

School gunman Adam Lanza may have snapped over fears mother was going to send him to psychiatric facility - NYPOST.com


Also, it appears as if he spent his time in a darkened basement ... playing video games and worshiping guns. Basically, this kid gave off major warning signs from the start. This is not a issue of guns w/this young man ... it's an issue of mental health. The real question is why on earth did it take so long for the mother (or anyone else!?!) to step up and say something about it? This didn't have to happen, and could have prevented if he were in a hospital where he belonged. Here is an article describing his 'den' ... 

School gunman spent hours in windowless basement playing violent video games: report - NYPOST.com


----------



## scat7s

and those pesky video games...i havent seen one post about anyone wanting to "ban" those...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> I was _just_ reading that ...
> 
> School gunman Adam Lanza may have snapped over fears mother was going to send him to psychiatric facility - NYPOST.com
> 
> 
> Also, it appears as if he spent his time in a darkened basement ... playing video games and worshiping guns. Basically, this kid gave off major warning signs from the start. This is not a issue of guns w/this young man ... it's an issue of mental health. The real question is why on earth did it take so long for the mother (or anyone else!?!) to step up and say something about it? This didn't have to happen, and could have prevented if he were in a hospital where he belonged. Here is an article describing his 'den' ...
> 
> School gunman spent hours in windowless basement playing violent video games: report - NYPOST.com



I've said all along the mom is to blame. 

She could have averted it all! irresponsible woman.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic




----------



## crossroadsnyc

scat7s said:


> and those pesky video games...i havent seen one post about anyone wanting to "ban" those...



It's not the video games. It's the frame of mind of the person consumed w/them. He's young, he's secluded himself from society, he sits in a darkened room playing violent games, he spends the rest of his time worshiping weapons, and has a history of mental illness severe enough that his Mom was reportedly going to commit him. The video games were a small part of the puzzle w/his overall mindset. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of medication he was taking (if any).


----------



## Adwex

blues_n_cues said:


> so is gas & cow shit-
> Oklahoma City bombing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun. He killed 168 people, killed 19 children under age 6, injured over 680 innocent people. You can still buy fertilizer. You can still buy racing fuel. You can still rent box trucks. Murderers will murder with or without a gun. Guns are not the problem.



Just an objective observation and hypothesis (no emotional component)...I recognize the argument that pre-meditated murders can occur without guns, of course, but in this case it seems that Adam Lanza carried out this act in a "fit of rage" that likely climaxed as a result of some tension that was building with his mother, and her connection to the school. If there were no guns in the house, and he got pissed off at his mother, he may have attacked her somehow, but I can't imagine him going to the school afterward. It's an undeniable fact that it's much easier to kill many people with a gun than any other weapon that may have been in the house at the time.

I just read a news article stating that his mother may have been planning to "commit" him to some psychiatric institution, and he may have felt that she loved the school and the kids more than she loved him. The pieces seem to fit the puzzle. Jealousy is one of the strongest human emotions.


----------



## brp

Reckless_Life said:


> There's been a school shooting in the US and you say the US actually seems quite trustworthy with guns. I think that's hilarious and quite inappropriate given the recent events, and no I do not have a graph for that.
> 
> But feel free to post some graphs and sources for the things that you are saying. Because the only thing you seem to be doing is demand sources and graphs from people who say something that doesn't fit in your picture.




My "picture" is the demonstrable reality and nothing more yet you fail to see it or even have a look.

But if you will look,
Despite being the country with the most guns per capita in the entire world by a great margin, the U.S. is not in the top 100 for worldwide murder rate, even though many of those countries with a higher murder rate do have stricter gun laws than the U.S.
How do you explain that other than to say that the U.S. is more responsible, reserved or "trustworthy" with their guns in comparison to most of the rest of the world?

Well, How do YOU?


A keen eye might answer " well those countries obviously don't have the infrastructure to enforce those gun laws". Good answer, except, CLEARLY neither does the U.S. and yet they still don't have a higher murder rate than those countries even though they have far and way a MUCH larger amount of guns, further proving my point.

Given this statistical reality, it would be completely unfair to say that the U.S. can't be trusted with guns because the facts show that they have proven to be more trustworthy than almost any other nation that allows gun possession or allows guns available to the citizenry, even many countries with stricter gun control.
Although not Canada of course


----------



## scat7s

you dont have to tell me super, i know.

we are a warrior state. we are at a state of perpetual war. the future of warcraft is remote operation. 

see any patterns?

accept it, or change the culture at the root cause.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm not challenging you here, but I feel the same about my government - yet I don't need to own guns to protect myself from it. Even if we had a Bill of Rights here, I still wouldn't own one.
> 
> Do you personally own guns?
> Are you threatened by your government?
> Are you scared of it?



Yes, I own 2 guns at the moment. I intend to get a AR10 or AR15
Yes, I am threatened by my govt and I am scared of it.

Like I stated earlier, right vs left is a joke. It really is authoritarian vs libertarian. Most people dont see it completely. They only see one side or the other.

EDIT: Because I believe in the second amendment does not mean I believe you must own a gun. I believe it is a choice you have a right to make. If you decide not to own one I am cool with that.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Yes, I own 2 guns at the moment. I intend to get a AR10 or AR15
> Yes, I am threatened by my govt and I am scared of it.
> 
> Like I stated earlier, right vs left is a joke. It really is authoritarian vs libertarian. Most people dont see it completely. They only see one side or the other.



Cool cool.. 

As an outsider I feel a bit of sadness you're threatened by it. 

It would be pure irony to state you're a proud American though.


----------



## scat7s

crossroadsnyc said:


> It's not the video games. It's the frame of mind of the person consumed w/them. He's young, he's secluded himself from society, he sits in a darkened room playing violent games, he spends the rest of his time worshiping weapons, and has a history of mental illness severe enough that his Mom was reportedly going to commit him. The video games were a small part of the puzzle w/his overall mindset. I'd be interested in knowing what kind of medication he was taking (if any).


 

i agree, as i said way earlier, most kids can handle this exposure without cracking. 

my comment was mostly snark...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> i agree, as i said way earlier, most kids can handle this exposure without cracking.
> 
> my comment was mostly snark...



Ten-country comparison suggests there’s little or no link between video games and gun murders

This is something that totally abolishes that theory.


----------



## Reckless_Life

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I've said all along the mom is to blame.
> 
> She could have averted it all! irresponsible woman.



Parents take part in this as well. If you know you have a difficult or "mentally challenged" child, or any kids really, you simply do not keep guns around and if they really feel the need to keep a gun it's their responsibility that it cannot be accessed by the kid.


----------



## 4STICKS

Ben Franklin knew. The republic will eventually fall. History dictates that. Always has. Good luck to those with their baseballbats and golf clubs.


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Ten-country comparison suggests there’s little or no link between video games and gun murders
> 
> This is something that totally abolishes that theory.


 
well, on this one, im going to be a little bit stubborn and go with common sense and just say B B B Bullshit.

what about studies that show that violent video games increase aggressive behavior in kids? 

contradictory aint it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Cool cool..
> 
> 
> 
> It would be pure irony to state you're a proud American though.



Not really. Can you love your parents and still not be proud of them? I love my country. I can separate my country from its politicians/government.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Reckless_Life said:


> Parents take part in this as well. If you know you have a difficult or "mentally challenged" child, or any kids really, you simply do not keep guns around and if they really feel the need to keep a gun it's their responsibility that it cannot be accessed by the kid.



Yup!

So does the latest Sandy Hooks incident have anything to do with gun control in the US or the 2cd amendment? 

I've learnt it doesn't. 

However! 

Homicides are statistically higher in the US than that of countries that have tighter gun control - handgun homicide is the most popular, it's over double the figure of all other methods of killing. It's massive. I believe that has everything to do with the 2cd amendment and gun control.


----------



## Adwex

longfxukxnhair said:


> Not really. Can you love your parents and still not be proud of them? I love my country. I can separate my country from its politicians/government.



I too, am proud of my country and what it stands for, but not so much of its leaders.


----------



## Söulcaster

longfxukxnhair said:


> Yes, I own 2 guns at the moment. I intend to get a AR10 or AR15
> Yes, I am threatened by my govt and I am scared of it.
> 
> Like I stated earlier, right vs left is a joke. It really is authoritarian vs libertarian. Most people dont see it completely. They only see one side or the other.
> 
> EDIT: Because I believe in the second amendment does not mean I believe you must own a gun. I believe it is a choice you have a right to make. If you decide not to own one I am cool with that.


Left wing or right wing, the bird still shits on you...,,,

Peace


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Not really. Can you love your parents and still not be proud of them? I love my country. I can separate my country from its politicians/government.



So what is your country then? 

The scenery? 
The language? - English  
The culture? - Pizza? [Italian], Fries? [French] Hollywood? music etc? 

How do you identify between them?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Ten-country comparison suggests there’s little or no link between video games and gun murders
> 
> This is something that totally abolishes that theory.



The video games are related to a young man who was very sick, not society at large. This is not a matter of guns, other than the fact that they should not have been in proximity to someone who was clearly not treated appropriately. His history of mental illness, his lifestyle, and his apparent / reported current state of perhaps needing to be institutionalized, is the real issue here. I'm sorry the Mother is dead, because this could have served as a wake up call for other parents to wake the fuck up to what's really happening w/their kids. Everyone is sitting around focused on guns, while the next ticking time bomb is ready to go off, and the parents probably realize it (like this mom did), but the parents don't want to say anything because it's an 'embarrassment' to the family, so they sit back and do nothing until it's too late.


----------



## Australian

Reckless_Life said:


> Parents take part in this as well. If you know you have a difficult or "mentally challenged" child, or any kids really, you simply do not keep guns around and if they really feel the need to keep a gun it's their responsibility that it cannot be accessed by the kid.



Thats the first thing that should be addressed .
These shootings are a wake up call for gun owners to keep their guns from being too accessable to someone in a chronic or temporarily volatile state.


----------



## scat7s

Australian said:


> Thats the first thing that should be addressed .
> These shootings are a wake up call for gun owners to keep their guns from being to accessable to someone in a chronic or temporary volatile state.


 
sounds so simple doesnt it?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> The video games are related to a young man who was very sick, not society at large. This is not a matter of guns, other than the fact that they should not have been in proximity to someone who was clearly not treated appropriately. His history of mental illness, his lifestyle, and his apparent / reported current state of perhaps needing to be institutionalized, is the real issue here. I'm sorry the Mother is dead, because this could have served as a wake up call for other parents to wake the fuck up to what's really happening w/their kids. Everyone is sitting around focused on guns, while the next ticking time bomb is ready to go off, and the parents probably realize it (like this mom did), but the parents don't want to say anything because it's an 'embarrassment' to the family, so they sit back and do nothing until it's too late.



Yeah I agree ..


----------



## 4STICKS

What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed, if so celestial an article as Freedom should not be highly rated.

Thomas Paine

Forgot to put in context... But enlightend folk should have no problem with it.


----------



## Australian

scat7s said:


> sounds so simple doesnt it?



Well I see it as being the simplest and most effective solution.
Dont take away citizens rights, but just remind them that that gun sitting in the kitchen drawer while parents are at work is not such a good idea.

Ask gun owners to be more responsible. Most are responsible especially game shooters who know their guns well and know what the consequences are for being irresponsible with a killer weapon.

We cant rely on the Mental Health sector to produce a sane person. In a lot of cases they make the person worse.
This is an area I've been interested in for a long time, and just by looking at the photo of this recent killer I can without question tell that he was on medication.
Their medication has been proven to cause suicide amongst other non optimum results.


----------



## 4STICKS

Australian said:


> Well I see it as being the simplest and most effective solution.
> Dont take away citizens rights, but just remind them that that gun sitting in the kitchen drawer while parents are at work is not such a good idea.
> 
> Ask gun owners to be more responsible. Most are responsible especially game shooters who know their guns well and know what the consequences are for being irresponsible eith a killer weapon.



Damn Ozz! I think we're like that for the most part... But that nails it!!!!!


----------



## 4STICKS

Australian said:


> Well I see it as being the simplest and most effective solution.
> Dont take away citizens rights, but just remind them that that gun sitting in the kitchen drawer while parents are at work is not such a good idea.
> 
> Ask gun owners to be more responsible. Most are responsible especially game shooters who know their guns well and know what the consequences are for being irresponsible with a killer weapon.
> 
> We cant rely on the Mental Health sector to produce a sane person. In a lot of cases they make the person worse.
> This is an area I've been interested in for a long time, and just by looking at the photo of this recent killer I can without question tell that he was on medication.
> Their medication has been proven to cause suicide amongst other non optimum results.



Damn, it took 30 some odd fuckin pages... and then an Aussie nailed it down? WTF????


----------



## Australian

4STICKS said:


> Damn, it took 30 some odd fuckin pages... and then an Aussie nailed it down? WTF????




Cheers! Guns are on me.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> So what is your country then?
> 
> The scenery?
> The language? - English
> The culture? - Pizza? [Italian], Fries? [French] Hollywood? music etc?
> 
> How do you identify between them?



Let me preface this by saying I have never been outside of America. I have no desire to travel. Its just not in my nature. But I have lived in a few different states and have been to a great many.

I love the idea that is America. What is was and was intended to be. A country that offered hope to many in other nations. An ideal that has been lost. I have know many people who have come from other countries. When I spoke with them they all spoke of a hope and a dream. I could see it in their eyes when they spoke about it. When I speak of others from other countries I am not talking about immigrants from Mexico. Im talking about Russians, Cuban, Germans and others. One of my earliest and strongest memories is of my best friends dad who escaped the holocaust. When he spoke of pulling into New York and the sights he saw it brought chills. Here is a man that speaks 12 languages that escaped a horrible time in human history and he cried when he realized the chance he had been given. 

There is much I love about my country. And there is much to be proud of by being an American. I am an American and I will never apologize for that. I do not think I am better than anyone else because I am an American. But I will not apologize for being a white male American. Even if the media does try to tell me differently.


----------



## 4STICKS

Australian said:


> Cheers! Guns are on me.



I'll take one of those scary lookin guns, please!


----------



## Australian

In the perfect world teachers would have a button under their desk and in an emergency this guy would come out with full guns blazing. 



Grunch said:


>


----------



## 4STICKS

longfxukxnhair said:


> Let me preface this by saying I have never been outside of America. I have no desire to travel. Its just not in my nature. But I have lived in a few different states and have been to a great many.
> 
> I love the idea that is America. What is was and was intended to be. A country that offered hope to many in other nations. An ideal that has been lost. I have know many people who have come from other countries. When I spoke with them they all spoke of a hope and a dream. I could see it in their eyes when they spoke about it. When I speak of others from other countries I am not talking about immigrants from Mexico. Im talking about Russians, Cuban, Germans and others. One of my earliest and strongest memories is of my best friends dad who escaped the holocaust. When he spoke of pulling into New York and the sights he saw it brought chills. Here is a man that speaks 12 languages that escaped a horrible time in human history and he cried when he realized the chance he had been given.
> 
> There is much I love about my country. And there is much to be proud of by being an American. I am an American and I will never apologize for that. I do not think I am better than anyone else because I am an American. But I will not apologize for being a white male American. Even if the media does try to tell me differently.



I'm Mexican American and I agree completly with you. ...But you're gonna get soooooo much shit. Good to have you here brother!!!!


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I've said all along the mom is to blame.
> 
> She could have averted it all! irresponsible woman.



no,you have said for 30something pages that guns in the U.S. are the problem.


----------



## 4STICKS

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.

T. Paine

True? Anyone???Anyone????


----------



## Micky

I keep trying to tell everyone it is not about guns...


----------



## scat7s

man, im telling you, some of those old timers were treasure troves of amazing quotes. 

ive heard a few times in this thread even, rewrite those amendments, fix the outdated constitution bla bla....the common argument in media seems to be "the fathers couldnt have forseen or predicted the problems faced by america today" therefore, the constitution/bill of rights are outdated. 

my interpretation is more like, when i read a lot of those quotes they are as true today, and as relevent today as they ever were.

amazing...


----------



## blues_n_cues

scat7s said:


> man, im telling you, some of those old timers were treasure troves of amazing quotes.
> 
> ive heard a few times in this thread even, rewrite those amendments, fix the outdated constitution bla bla....the common argument in media seems to be "the fathers couldnt have forseen or predicted the problems faced by america today" therefore, the constitution/bill of rights are outdated.
> 
> my interpretation is more like, when i read a lot of those quotes they are as true today, and as relevent today as they ever were.
> 
> amazing...



times may change but the world doesn't.


----------



## brp

Micky said:


> I keep trying to tell everyone it is not about guns...



Yeah, me too.
But on FB when saying so, you'd think I had said I support the concept of every man & woman being armed in public and that shooting up schools is a good time.


----------



## scat7s

blues_n_cues said:


> times may change but the world doesn't.


 

the machinations certainly dont. the political tactics are as old as man.


----------



## scat7s

brp said:


> Yeah, me too.
> But on FB when saying so, you'd think I had said I support the concept of every man & woman being armed in public and that shooting up schools is a good time.


 
the mass hysteria machine in full swing

ive heard it compared to 9/11 as far as the emotional impact and its "importance" to do "something"


----------



## Reckless_Life

*" 11-year-old takes gun to school fearing another mass shooting "*

11 years old... with access to a gun... 

Well done. (--> that's sarcasm btw, before some idiot thinks it's an encouragement)


----------



## longfxukxnhair

4STICKS said:


> I'm Mexican American and I agree completly with you. ...But you're gonna get soooooo much shit. Good to have you here brother!!!!



Its good to be here. 
Thx bro


----------



## longfxukxnhair

4STICKS said:


> Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer.
> 
> T. Paine
> 
> True? Anyone???Anyone????



100%

Great quote 4S


----------



## longfxukxnhair

scat7s said:


> man, im telling you, some of those old timers were treasure troves of amazing quotes.
> 
> ive heard a few times in this thread even, rewrite those amendments, fix the outdated constitution bla bla....the common argument in media seems to be "the fathers couldnt have forseen or predicted the problems faced by america today" therefore, the constitution/bill of rights are outdated.
> 
> my interpretation is more like, when i read a lot of those quotes they are as true today, and as relevent today as they ever were.
> 
> amazing...



I still think those men are ahead of their time and ours.


----------



## blues_n_cues

scat7s said:


> the mass hysteria machine in full swing
> 
> ive heard it compared to 9/11 as far as the emotional impact and its "importance" to do "something"



and once again it will be the wrong thing in a rush to do the right thing

department of homeland security anyone??


----------



## scat7s

longfxukxnhair said:


> I still think those men are ahead of their time and ours.


 

timeless...


----------



## gdh1532

Australian said:


> Well I see it as being the simplest and most effective solution.
> Dont take away citizens rights, but just remind them that that gun sitting in the kitchen drawer while parents are at work is not such a good idea.
> 
> Ask gun owners to be more responsible. Most are responsible especially game shooters who know their guns well and know what the consequences are for being irresponsible with a killer weapon.
> 
> We cant rely on the Mental Health sector to produce a sane person. In a lot of cases they make the person worse.
> This is an area I've been interested in for a long time, and just by looking at the photo of this recent killer I can without question tell that he was on medication.
> Their medication has been proven to cause suicide amongst other non optimum results.



I'm not for super strict gun control (although Japan's statistics show that severe gun control laws, that include mental tests and drug tests have the lowest deaths by guns) . 

I think if the leaders of this country who wrote the 2nd amendment, saw the types of weapons that are available, and how they have caused horrible tragedy on the very soil they once stood and fought for. They might make exceptions.. when they wrote the laws, ball and muskets were used. Indians could kick their asses with the bows and arrows, because it took so long to reload. They might have made changes to the law. 

I myself would not like to see any stricter gun laws but, you already know that day is coming up. I also agree that the gun is not at fault, it is absolutely the killers fault, and some blame on the mother for letting him get access. 

What I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt, is that if the laws are changed and they are going to take guns away, they will. I already here it as I type it.... from my cold dead hands. Yup if you resist that's how it'll be. 

How do I know this.. 1993 in the floods some housing areas had a mandatory evacuation. To enforce the EVAC, National Guard troops were brought in. it wasn't just a few guys with guns. quite a few 50 cal. some armored personal carriers and a few tanks. 

I was also there the night the ATF raided Joe's Garage in Ft. Worth TX. (well known rock and metal bar, Pantera played there). Hooded, vests, full battle gear, into a bar of young men and women. Searched everyone, and finally arrested the bar owner, for having confiscated a bottle of someone trying to bring it in.. his crime ? he didn't label it right away, and put in away in the designated spot for confiscated materials. Yikes what a monster he was.



David Koresh , owned an illegal weapon, doesn't really look like they gave a shit about killing those people to retrieve that weapon. 

When I first moved back to the midwest, I had a job supervising the install of the new boiler sytems up at the Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary. I'd estimate that 1/3 or more were there for federal gun law violations. One poor guy got 8 yrs, for having left a guns show with a large case of gun parts he purchased, what he didn't know. There was a completely assembled illegal gun at the bottom of the case. Yup he got stopped on the way out, searched and busted. 8 yrs. federal pen.. 

If the laws are passed and you decide not to follow them, you'll be in violation of federal gun laws, and they will come and take the guns, if you resist, you'll either be killed or arrested. That is the way governments work. 

they just figure after 40 or 50 yrs know one will give a shit that people died trying to keep their guns. i'm out on this thread. Not here to argue about gun control, if it happens, it happens.


----------



## Username2

Man all this talk about guns has giving me more tactical GAS. 

Think I will buy a couple of guns tomorrow, I have a little collection. Nice I don't have to comply with the waiting period either.


----------



## Australian

nuke said:


> Man all this talk about guns has giving me more tactical GAS.
> 
> Think I will buy a couple of guns tomorrow, I have a little collection. Nice I don't have to comply with the waiting period either.



Make sure you buy a nice holster for them and some new spurs too.


----------



## Australian

... and a pony.


----------



## Username2

Australian said:


> Make sure you buy a nice holster for them and some new spurs too.



Like these 

God Bless America.... Land that I love.......


----------



## Username2

Australian said:


> ... and a pony.



Well before the socialists ruined America we did have real men on Pony's, Now we just have cocksuckers who mom's didn't let them play with cap guns.


----------



## Australian

nuke said:


> Like these
> 
> God Bless America.... Land that I love.......




In Australia a gun in a car like that would be a big deal.

I used to have guns myself. I used to get them through my gf's dad at the time. He was good friends with a Fed Cop-We would get the guns for free -Guns that were confiscated.

I nearly shot his daughter accidentally when she walked into the line of fire when we were rabbit shooting once.

I also had a good friend accidentally killed by his brother when he passed under a barbed wire fence with the gun loaded.

My younger brother took one of my rifles and was being stupid with it once. That caused me to take all my guns back to my gf's dad and say "here I dont need these anymore" and I've never bothered owning one since.


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Nothing will change in the US with guns, you'll always be allowed them.



I have learned to take nothing for granted. In the wake of a tragedy too often politicians use the emotional state of people to push new laws or responses when people don't think out the long term on them. Post 9/11 would be a example of that.

I also distrust politicians specially known anti gun ones like Feinstein. Her proposed ban states...

" ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively,"

Sounds like those who already have them get to keep them right? Question though. What happens when you go to give them to your family or kids as a inheritance?

According to this the way I can see into it, it could be twisted into meaning you cannot give your legal guns to your family, you could not pass them on to your future generation as the " transfer, and possession" would be prospectively.

Does this mean that your family would have to turn them in less they be prosecuted for illegally obtaining the firearm even though YOU legally purchased it before the ban?

That could wipe out ownership in one generation. Is that not a potential backdoor confiscation?

Even though in Britain you can technically still own a gun, they made it so hard and so restrictive it is next to impossible but the leaders can still say " you still can" although it is hollow words for the most part. Just don't want to see America go down that road. 

I don't trust politicians specially when they are caught in lies, and I don't underestimate their devious nature of using language a trained lawyer would get a headache trying to decipher in the dirty hidden details they put in legislation.


----------



## Australian

nuke said:


> Well before the socialists ruined America we did have real men on Pony's, Now we just have cocksuckers who mom's didn't let them play with cap guns.



I've probably watched every John Wayne movie as a kid. My uncles were big John Wayne fans and loved guns too. They had me shooting _an over and under_ at 9yo. It was fun, thats for sure.

We used to imitate him "is that a dagger I see before me?".


----------



## scat7s

LKrevival said:


> I have learned to take nothing for granted. In the wake of a tragedy too often politicians use the emotional state of people to push new laws or responses when people don't think out the long term on them. Post 9/11 would be a example of that.
> 
> I also distrust politicians specially known anti gun ones like Feinstein. Her proposed ban states...
> 
> " ban the sale, the transfer, the importation and the possession, not retroactively, but prospectively,"
> 
> Sounds like those who already have them get to keep them right? Question though. What happens when you go to give them to your family or kids as a inheritance?
> 
> According to this the way I can see into it, it could be twisted into meaning you cannot give your legal guns to your family, you could not pass them on to your future generation as the " transfer, and possession" would be prospectively.
> 
> Does this mean that your family would have to turn them in less they be prosecuted for illegally obtaining the firearm even though YOU legally purchased it before the ban?
> 
> That could wipe out ownership in one generation. Is that not a potential backdoor confiscation?
> 
> Even though in Britain you can technically still own a gun, they made it so hard and so restrictive it is next to impossible but the leaders can still say " you still can" although it is hollow words for the most part. Just don't want to see America go down that road.
> 
> I don't trust politicians specially when they are caught in lies, and I don't underestimate their devious nature of using language a trained lawyer would get a headache trying to decipher in the dirty hidden details they put in legislation.


 

legal speak is confusing and ambiguous for a reason


----------



## Söulcaster

A couple of weeks ago a girl took a hand grenade to school for show and tell up in Newcastle,,,...caused a minor stir, lol.

Peace


----------



## Marshall Mann

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well I was just pondering on the actual more grand picture of deaths that result from a handgun being used.
> 
> The figure on average in the US is 10,000 a year. The figure in the UK is 8. [I'm totally indifferent here, I take neither side, it's just a comparison of two different continents/countries that take different stances on guns, the two extremes if you like].
> 
> Mostly the massacres that bring up this whole debate are public mass killings by a deranged fruit loop.
> 
> However, there are thousands of murders that occur when a sane person has a handgun and uses it as an offensive weapon in many, many scenarios. Statistics suggest that death due to someone protecting themselves with a handgun is lower than the offensive kind.
> 
> Robbing a liqueur store, gang murders, disputes etc.
> 
> My point is that this discussion is left alone largely when something like a school shooting happens - when really, surely the entire cake needs to be looked at. in 2010 over 12,000 homicides happened in relation to handguns.
> 
> It's a law [amendment] that enables citizens to kill people way more readily, easily and more frequently.
> 
> I actually take neither stand, I'm totally undecided - although I argue for both sides in debate. I'm pretty indifferent. I enjoy the debate though.
> 
> Like I've said, I'm a hypocrite. I like guns to a degree they fascinate me, some look beautiful, I love their history and the manufacturers, and the different sounds they make.. like an MP5, to a Shotgun, to an UZI etc.
> I've also said if I was living through a great depression type scenario, I'd feel safer owning a gun to protect my house/family etc.
> 
> It might seem like I'm against guns, but only because I find there's more knowledge to extract from folk that support guns, than people that don't.
> 
> I find it intriguing how in 2012, one feels the need to own weapons.
> Different psyches, personalities, demographics, genders, ages, different geography, different IQs... .. all these aspects come into play.. and many different rationales for owning weapons .. protection against tyranny, hunting, homeland security, sports, gun ranges, etc..
> 
> It's a wide open subject I like - and I like to converse with individuals that can justify them. Guns are a real bittersweet.




Thanks for clarifying FS

1) Again, can you please list where you are gating your data from? 

2) I would argue that NO "sane" person uses a gun to harm someone. You have to have a lack of remorse to kill for greed of vengeance. 

3) There are already laws on the books that regulate gun ownership. As I mentioned earlier, we outlawed alcohol, pot, meth, cocaine and heroine and that has had a less than desirable outcome. Outlawing guns, or a specific type of gun, will only prevent law abiding citizens from owning them. It will do little to affect criminals.

Of the crimes you list, how many were acted out by the legal owner of the gun? I would guess its less than 1 percent.


----------



## Australian

Söulcaster said:


> A couple of weeks ago a girl took a hand grenade to school for show and tell up in Newcastle,,,...caused a minor stir, lol.
> 
> Peace



Awww thats cute!


----------



## Username2

Australian said:


> In Australia a gun in a car like that would be a big deal.
> 
> I used to have guns myself. I used to get them through my gf's dad at the time. He was good friends with a Fed Cop-We would get the guns for free -Guns that were confiscated.
> 
> I nearly shot his daughter accidentally when she walked into the line of fire when we were rabbit shooting once.
> 
> I also had a good friend accidentally killed by his brother when he passed under a barbed wire fence with the gun loaded.
> 
> My younger brother took one of my rifles and was being stupid with it once. That caused me to take all my guns back to my gf's dad and say "here I dont need these anymore" and I've never bothered owning one since.



I understand how you feel, seriously. 

Gun accidents happen. I find that those accidents occur around people that are new to owning guns or just rarely ever use them. Someone who has been around guns a long time takes many safety precautions to ensure they and those around them are safe. They will not tolerate horseplay with them. 

Gun ownership is not right for everyone, I have always believed is a personal choice. I just don't want anyone else telling me what the hell I can and cannot do or own without just cause, at least here in the USA. I own a lot of them, but I am also a member of a organization who needs them.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

nuke said:


> I find that those accidents occur around people that are new to owning guns or just rarely ever use them.



You sure about that?


----------



## Marshall Mann

For less than $200, you could have one of these, opens in seconds and is fingerprint operated. 

Barska Biometric Safe with Fingerprint Lock from Mercantila.com

If the guns in question in Connecticut were locked up, were would most likely not be having this debate.


----------



## Username2

Marshall Mann said:


> For less than $200, you could have one of these, opens in seconds and is fingerprint operated.
> 
> Barska Biometric Safe with Fingerprint Lock from Mercantila.com
> 
> If the guns in question in Connecticut were locked up, were would most likely not be having this debate.



I want to wait until the facts are known about these guns before I say anything about it. We just do not know how it is he came into possession of them yet. Assuming or listen to what the media "thinks" isn't good enough for me. What ever happened something broke down somewhere.


----------



## Söulcaster

Off-duty sheriff takes out cinema shooter


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I find it intriguing how in 2012, one feels the need to own weapons.
> .




Well you sort of pointed out a good reason why to in your various posts. You mentioned that your government has ruined certain parts of England by allowing certain criminals to immigrate who your government can't often control yet your own government strips you of the ability to defend yourself from these people and expects you to trust said government to protect you.

As the saying goes, when seconds count the cops are minutes away. You didn't create the situation but you have to live with the reality that violence is around you so you have two choices, be meek and take your chances or take your defense into your own hands.

It may be 2012 but bad people wanting to bad things are still out there, if anything it seems to be getting worse. I just read on another forum some guy say "I am 55 years old and never felt the need to own a gun". Well good for him but he has no right to decide my fate based on his life. And for all he knows tomorrow he might be uddering the words "never thought it would happen to me".

If anything describes why we Americans think like we do and like our 2nd amendment it is that, not trusting our government to be there and believing we are ultimately our own best protectors individually. Most of us anyway, not enough though.

I have been to the range many times. Sometimes I saw civilians next to me I didn't completely trust but most of time I have. I have also had police or military people shooting the next lane to me at times and in some instances they were not as proficient with a firearm compared to a lot of civilians so I don't place a high trust in them just because they are police or military trained.


----------



## Username2

Söulcaster said:


> Off-duty sheriff takes out cinema shooter



You just made and important point SC. Everyday in the US there are people who have conceal carry permits or are legal gun owners who save lives or prevent harm and injury to people because they are packing. Every day. 

The media just chooses to ignore these stories. You can decide why.


----------



## Söulcaster

nuke said:


> You just made and important point SC. Everyday in the US there are people who have conceal carry permits or are legal gun owners who save lives or prevent harm and injury to people because they are packing. Every day.
> 
> The media just chooses to ignore these stories. You can decide why.



Hmmmm? You telling me the media has an agenda? Shirley you can't be serious. 

Just kidding, I know what they want. They report what suits them, they want sensationalism, they want a bodycount..,,.

The person who stopped this would be killer should be given hero status...

Peace


----------



## CaptainZero

Adwex said:


> Just an objective observation and hypothesis (no emotional component)...I recognize the argument that pre-meditated murders can occur without guns, of course, but in this case it seems that Adam Lanza carried out this act in a "fit of rage" that likely climaxed as a result of some tension that was building with his mother, and her connection to the school. If there were no guns in the house, and he got pissed off at his mother, he may have attacked her somehow, but I can't imagine him going to the school afterward. It's an undeniable fact that it's much easier to kill many people with a gun than any other weapon that may have been in the house at the time.
> 
> I just read a news article stating that his mother may have been planning to "commit" him to some psychiatric institution, and he may have felt that she loved the school and the kids more than she loved him. The pieces seem to fit the puzzle. Jealousy is one of the strongest human emotions.



Yes, but he tried to buy a gun that week and was denied. He stole them from his mother who should have had them locked up. Especially since she was trying to have him put away.


----------



## scat7s

her, knowing his trouble as she did, should have removed the guns from the house until he was out. 

hindsight, but geeze...


----------



## Username2

CaptainZero said:


> Yes, but he tried to buy a gun that week and was denied. He stole them from his mother who should have had them locked up. Especially since she was trying to have him put away.



Again my friend, we don't know for fact that she didn't have them locked up. I personally am very interested in this part of the investigation. We all got to wait for the truth to come out, the media will make up shit all day and people swallow it. Hell I am still waiting for the truth about Benghazi to come out, but the fact the media isn't chasing it and ignoring it tells me all I needed to know.


----------



## CaptainZero

I just finished a John Wayne movie. LOVE the Duke!


----------



## CaptainZero

I understand but if they were locked up properly, I can't imagine him getting to them. Still I get your point. I don't want to jump to conclusions.


----------



## Marshall Mann

We will never know the truth. And I agree with Nuke, the media is only giving us what they want to. But my gut as a parent tells me someone, especially his mother, should have had some sign. Did hey draw pictures of killing people when he was mad? Mutilate an animal? Have extreme temper problems? It's hard to imaging that this came completely from out of the blue. 

This was an interesting read. I am not saying anything could have been done differently, only hypothesizing. 

'I Am Adam Lanza's Mother': A Mom's Perspective On The Mental Illness Conversation In America


----------



## Micky

I keep saying it is not about guns.
It is about mental illness.

And a parent NEVER wants to admit (denial) that there is something possibly wrong with their child...


----------



## CaptainZero

Micky said:


> I keep saying it is not about guns.
> It is about mental illness.
> 
> And a parent NEVER wants to admit (denial) that there is something possibly wrong with their child...



Couldn't agree more. 

Here's a story from the other night that could have turned out worse. I don't think anyon has posted it yet. 

Man Attempts to Open Fire on Crowd at Movie Theater, Armed Off-Duty Sheriff’s Deputy Drops Him With One Bullet | TheBlaze.com


----------



## brp

nuke said:


> Again my friend, we don't know for fact that she didn't have them locked up. I personally am very interested in this part of the investigation. We all got to wait for the truth to come out,.



She may have had them locked up and been unaware that he knew where she kept/hid the key.
This part of the story will be very interesting, but gotta wait as you said.


Here in Canada, we have very specific and stringent requirements regarding secure gun storage, while in transit and in the home. It's a huge deal if they are not followed and that is discovered.


----------



## diesect20022000

Micky said:


> I keep saying it is not about guns.
> It is about mental illness.
> 
> And a parent NEVER wants to admit (denial) that there is something possibly wrong with their child...


 agreed. I'm autistic and i'd NEVER do something like this. EVER. but i'm also not mentaly ill.


----------



## Mike_j

Micky said:


> I keep saying it is not about guns.



I'll bet the poor parents of those kids don't see it that way.
People are just too fucking irresponsible to own guns and if politicians had any kind of integrity, they'd get rid of them all. If it saved one kids life, it would be worth it but its never going to happen. Very sad situation no matter how you look at it.


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> agreed. I'm autistic and i'd NEVER do something like this. EVER. but i'm also not mentaly ill.





I'm not saying you're mentally ill. But a mentally ill person is usually the last to admit it or even become cognizant of it.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> I'm not saying you're mentally ill. But a mentally ill person is usually the last to admit it or even become cognizant of it.


 i have written documentation of it plus the fact that a mentaly ill person cannot buy firearms legaly here and i can


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> i have written documentation of it plus the fact that a mentaly ill person cannot buy firearms legaly here and i can





Would you shoot me if the law allowed it?


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> Would you shoot me if the law allowed it?


no. if you tried to physicaly hurt me or my family and it called for it i would defend myself or my family in any means deemed permissable but no i wouldn't shoot you Aus if the law allowed it. odd question for someone that isn't aiming at my sanity.

also fyi here in the states mentaly ill people are among the FIRST to know if they're treated because it's part of the treatment. I have an autism spectrum dissorder, nothing more regarding my mental faculties.

anyway, why WOULD i shoot you? just because you like to poke at me doesn't warrant violence. that's your issue not mine


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> no. if you tried to physicaly hurt me or my family and it called for it i would defend myself or my family in any means deemed permissable but no i wouldn't shoot you Aus if the law allowed it. odd question for someone that isn't aiming at my sanity.
> 
> also fyi here in the states mentaly ill people are among the FIRST to know if they're treated because it's part of the treatment. I have an autism spectrum dissorder, nothing more regarding my mental faculties.
> 
> anyway, why WOULD i shoot you? just because you like to poke at me doesn't warrant violence. that's your issue not mine



Cool. That answer is going to earn you so many brownie points on the Forum. 
Do you have a gun?


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> Cool. That answer is going to earn you so many brownie points on the Forum.
> Do you have a gun?


 lol truth is truth Aus.

why do you want to know?


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> lol truth is truth Aus.
> 
> why do you want to know?





ummm...because this is a thread about guns.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> ummm...because this is a thread about guns.


 no it's about a horrendous crime perpetrated by a madman that turned into a gun debate. it's not really any of your concern or business what i own and don't own


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> no it's about a horrendous crime perpetrated by a madman that turned into a gun debate. it's not really any of your concern or business what i own and don't own



Well you tell us everything else.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> Well you tell us everything else.


 lol. not really. but again it's none of your concern.


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> lol. not really. but again it's none of your concern.




Thats true its none our our concern.

Hope you dont mind me saying that your avatar might be a bit distressing to some-taking into account the current events.
None of my business...I might just be a bit squeamish, but I'm just looking out for the bro's of the forum. :cool2:


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> Thats true its none our our concern.
> 
> Hope you dont mind me saying that your avatar might be a bit distressing to some-taking into account the current events.
> None of my business...I might just be a bit squeamish, but I'm just looking out for the bro's of the forum. :cool2:


lol well you'll have to get over it AUs. I'm sure you can adjust.

it's my bands album cover. and no i have no reason to change that either wether you choose to feel uncomfortable with it is your prerogative.

but i'm sure they feel your support


----------



## blues_n_cues

Australian said:


> Thats true its none our our concern.
> 
> Hope you dont mind me saying that your avatar might be a bit distressing to some-taking into account the current events.
> None of my business...I might just be a bit squeamish, but I'm just looking out for the bro's of the forum. :cool2:



zombies,,really???


----------



## diesect20022000

blues_n_cues said:


> zombies,,really???


i know. 'the weather calls for zombies' is quite a terrifying band name and imagery.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Mike_j said:


> I'll bet the poor parents of those kids don't see it that way.
> have you been watching them on the news??
> People are just too fucking irresponsible to own guns and if politicians had any kind of integrity, they'd get rid of them all.
> tell your Aussie govt you would like that
> 
> 
> If it saved one kids life, it would be worth it but its never going to happen. Very sad situation no matter how you look at it.



yes it is sad & if that boy's parents hadn't dropped the ball we wouldn't be having this conversation


----------



## Australian

blues_n_cues said:


> zombies,,really???





He does have an axe and blood on his shirt. That would remind me more of the current fatal event than a picture of a Marshall stack.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Australian said:


> He does have an axe and blood on his shirt. That would remind me more of the current fatal event than a picture of a Marshall.



what does an axe & zombie have to do w/ anything recent events in the entire world??? 

dude,you're reaching...once again-

p.s.- maybe you shouldn't look @ his avatar then.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> He does have an axe and blood on his shirt. That would remind me more of the current fatal event than a picture of a Marshall stack.


 weak but cute one nonetheless Aus. it's nice that you let it (your true motives) come out to breathe with every post though


----------



## blues_n_cues

so now does he not only want to take away our guns he wants to censor our avatars too???? 

next time someone wants to invade Australia or Britain like back in the 40's I say let them have @ it. this time we'll just stand by & watch.


----------



## diesect20022000

blues_n_cues said:


> so now does he not only want to take away our guns he wants to censor our avatars too????
> 
> next time someone wants to invade Australia or Britain like back in the 40's I say let them have @ it. this time we'll just stand by & watch.


 lol


----------



## Australian

blues_n_cues said:


> so now does he not only want to take away our guns he wants to censor our avatars too????
> 
> next time someone wants to invade Australia or Britain like back in the 40's I say let them have @ it. this time we'll just stand by & watch.




Im not anti-guns at all. But I am anti drugs and I would lay dow a $10 bill that his medication and incompetent "therapy" caused this.
Even in some past crazy incidents in Aus it turned out that the killer was on psychiatric medication.


----------



## blues_n_cues

like I said before,I'm in this conversation on multiple forums & message boards & it's always the brits & australians that have the strongest opinion on American gun issues. why is that?? 

so far I have yet to read anything pro or con from a Russian,Polish,Czech,Swiss,African,German,Norweigan,Central American,Mexican,Iraqi,Iranian,Chinese,etc.....


----------



## Australian

blues_n_cues said:


> like I said before,I'm in this conversation on multiple forums & message boards & it's always the brits & australians that have the strongest opinion on American gun issues. why is that??
> 
> so far I have yet to read anything pro or con from a Russian,Polish,Czech,Swiss,African,German,Norweigan,Central American,Mexican,Iraqi,Iranian,Chinese,etc.....





I havn't got an issue with guns. If theyre policed close enough so that they dont get into the wrong hands, and if owners make sure that theyre locked out of reach of children or the mentally feeble, then its fine.

I have friends that go hunting on a regular basis. They arent against guns either.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Australian said:


> I havn't got an issue with guns. If theyre policed close enough so that they dont get into the wrong hands, and if owners make sure that theyre locked out of reach of children or the mentally feeble, then its fine.



well on that theory, check out the gun crime stats for Washington D.C. & New York City-where guns are not legal to possess on your person,then check out this town & get back to me.

Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia --- Crime Rate Plummets

an inanimate object doesn't "find the wrong hands" the wrong hands find it. and BTW, I was @ this place 2 days after it happened. no guns there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing


----------



## Reckless_Life

nuke said:


> Well before the socialists ruined America we did have real men on Pony's, Now we just have cocksuckers who mom's didn't let them play with cap guns.



That's some tough words for a guy whose role model is an actor.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Well before the socialists ruined America we did have real men on Pony's, Now we just have cocksuckers who mom's didn't let them play with cap guns.



And it's hilarious that they're taking over your life. Socialists! Gay marriage! Health care! Fuck no! Guns! Fuck Yeah!


----------



## Australian

Reckless_Life said:


> That's some tough words for a guy whose role model is an actor.




Are you trying to tell us that Nuke isnt John Wayne?


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> I havn't got an issue with guns. If theyre policed close enough so that they dont get into the wrong hands, and if owners make sure that theyre locked out of reach of children or the mentally feeble, then its fine.
> 
> I have friends that go hunting on a regular basis. They arent against guns either.



Adam Lanza was NOT mentally "feeble", he was considered a genius. He was very likely WAY smarter than his mother.


----------



## Grunch

Yeah. Here's who need to round up and put into work camps for the safety of white children everywhere...

Gun people
Weird people
Mentally instable
Smart people
Mesa users


----------



## Adwex

The "guns don't kill, people do" defense isn't very compelling to me. If the guns weren't there, then the people couldn't use them to kill.

I feel pretty strongly that if Adam Lanza didn't have access to those guns, he wouldn't have used another weapon, and this tragedy wouldn't have happened.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> Adam Lanza was NOT mentally "feeble", he was considered a genius. He was very likely WAY smarter than his mother.




I don't see anything genius about having deep seated social and educational difficulties and violent mental conflict. 

Not to mention his mental deterioration that made mass killing an option.


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> The "guns don't kill, people do" defense isn't very compelling to me. If the guns weren't there, then the people couldn't use them to kill.
> 
> I feel pretty strongly that if Adam Lanza didn't have access to those guns, he wouldn't have used another weapon, and this tragedy wouldn't have happened.



I totally agree. About 70 pages ago I touched on the fact that guns made him more powerful than he really is. Common theme....


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> I don't see anything genius about having deep seated social and education difficulties and violent mental conflict.
> 
> Not to mention his mental deterioration that made mass killing an option.



There are lots of extremely smart people who have social difficulties, it's no stretch. Isaac Newton was an asshole who died a virgin, yet he was possibly the smartest person that ever lived.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> There are lots of extremely smart people who have social difficulties, it's no stretch. Isaac Newton was an asshole who died a virgin, yet he was possibly the smartest person that ever lived.




But he achieved monumental things to credit his genius. 


What has Adam Lanza done? Apart from his ultimate destiny of destroying in wholesale lots .


----------



## diesect20022000

Adwex said:


> There are lots of extremely smart people who have social difficulties, it's no stretch. Isaac Newton was an asshole who died a virgin, yet he was possibly the smartest person that ever lived.


and Sir Isaac was an aspie


----------



## TwinACStacks

Adwex said:


> There are lots of extremely smart people who have social difficulties, it's no stretch. Isaac Newton was an asshole who died a virgin, yet he was possibly the smartest person that ever lived.



 I'd rather get laid...

Fuck Gravity. It's Over-rated.

 TWIN


----------



## blues_n_cues

Adwex said:


> Adam Lanza was NOT mentally "feeble", he was considered a genius. He was very likely WAY smarter than his mother.



"genius" is just a rating on a numbered scale. I've worked w/ & known many people who were decidedly not "geniuses" but had great common sense & "work sense" i.e. problem solving skills.


----------



## Adwex

TwinACStacks said:


> I'd rather get laid...
> 
> TWIN



Yeah, me too, probably. But, he chose to write THE most significant scientific publication EVER WRITTEN, thus inventing the science of physics and calculus. Not bad for a guy in his late 20s.


----------



## TwinACStacks

blues_n_cues said:


> "genius" is just a rating on a numbered scale. I've worked w/ & known many people who were decidedly not "geniuses" but had great common sense & "work sense" i.e. problem solving skills.



 I have an officially recorded IQ of 147.

I still fall down. Gravity Sucks.

 TWIN


----------



## Söulcaster

blues_n_cues said:


> so now does he not only want to take away our guns he wants to censor our avatars too????
> 
> next time someone wants to invade Australia or Britain like back in the 40's I say let them have @ it. this time we'll just stand by & watch.



A little insensitive man considering how many Australians have died fighting alongside Americans,,,...

Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to name but a few. None of which were our wars. And no offence to think you won WW2 on your own is a little presumptuous, so I assume you're joking.

Peace


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> But he achieved monumental things to credit his genius.
> 
> 
> What has Adam Lanza done? Apart from his ultimate destiny of destroying in wholesale lots .



Newton was just an example to illustrate that someone can be smart but socially awkward.


----------



## diesect20022000

Adwex said:


> Newton was just an example to illustrate that someone can be smart but socially awkward.


 and you can be smart,socialy awkward and not a violent maniac as well...


----------



## TwinACStacks

Except for John Mayer's version. I like that.

 TWIN


----------



## Adwex

blues_n_cues said:


> "genius" is just a rating on a numbered scale. I've worked w/ & known many people who were decidedly not "geniuses" but had great common sense & "work sense" i.e. problem solving skills.



Yeah, "genius" is just a number. Ok.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Söulcaster said:


> A little insensitive man considering how many Australians have died fighting alongside Americans,,,...
> 
> Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan to name but a few. None of which were our wars. And no offence to think you won WW2 on your own is a little presumptuous, so I assume you're joking.
> 
> Peace



 Hey, No One is slagging the Aussies. We all love you guys. You have GREAT accents....

 TWIN


----------



## TwinACStacks

MOST serial Killers have profiles that indicate ABOVE average intelligence.

 TWIN


----------



## blues_n_cues

Australian said:


> Hey dude if your avatar ever becomes you, pm me and we'll talk. I dont want this morbid sh*t to happen again.



why do you insist on pushing his buttons constantly??? 

if Die ever becomes an axe weilding zombie on a cloudy day I'll do him the favor myself.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Adwex said:


> Yeah, me too, probably. But, he chose to write THE most significant scientific publication EVER WRITTEN, thus inventing the science of physics and calculus. Not bad for a guy in his late 20s.



 What I find particularly uncanny, Is HOW bizarre and out there Einstein's theories read, Yet one by one they are being proven to be true--even in Quantum Mechanics.

I really don't think he was one of us.

 TWIN


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> Newton was just an example to illustrate that someone can be smart but socially awkward.




Yep I get what you mean. I didnt know that about him before you mentioned it.
But I wouldnt be surprised if his social life was kept so secret that no one knew much about it. He might have screwed the neighbors wife for all we know. Maybe even one/some of his students.

But from what I have been told and read about Autism, its not just inept social skills. Its more towards being a *hardened* hermit/fear of people/awkward in public.


----------



## cowsgomoo

blues_n_cues said:


> like I said before,I'm in this conversation on multiple forums & message boards & it's always the brits & australians that have the strongest opinion on American gun issues. why is that??
> 
> so far I have yet to read anything pro or con from a Russian,Polish,Czech,Swiss,African,German,Norweigan,Central American,Mexican,Iraqi,Iranian,Chinese,etc.....



I would say mathematics might be a factor - specifically the part that deals with numbers and percentages. How many Chinese members does the Marshall Forum have? How many Russians are here?

Comparatively few, is my wild guess at this particular puzzler...

I hope you're not implying that having strong opinions on stuff is an undesirable trait? You seem to express plenty yourself


----------



## diesect20022000

there's no fear of people lol. you sure twist the facts man but do what you will as always


----------



## blues_n_cues

cowsgomoo said:


> I would say mathematics might be a factor - specifically the part that deals with numbers and percentages. How many Chinese members does the Marshall Forum have? How many Russians are here?
> 
> Comparatively few, is my wild guess at this particular puzzler...
> 
> I hope you're not implying that having strong opinions on stuff is an undesirable trait? You seem to express plenty yourself



no,I didn't say that @ all & I'm not isolating it to the Marshall forum if you read that post completely before quoting it.

and yes,I am an opinionated SOB but opinions are formed by outside influence.just sayin'....


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> Yep I get what you mean. I didnt know that about him before you mentioned it.
> But I wouldnt be surprised if his social life was kept so secret that no one knew much about it. He might have screwed the neighbors wife for all we know. Maybe even one/some of his students.
> 
> But from what I have been told and read about Autism, its not just inept social skills. Its more towards being a *hardened* hermit/fear of people/awkward in public.



And apparently Adam Lanza was like that. He was a hermit, playing video games.

The theory that's developing is that his mother was planning on admitting him to a psychiatric facility, and that angered him. He also felt that his mother loved the kids at the school more than she loved him. There was likely an "incident" at home that triggered that anger, so he got the guns, shot his mother, then went to the school to kill the kids and teachers that he resented.

Love and jealousy will make you do crazy things.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> And apparently Adam Lanza was like that. He was a hermit, playing video games.
> 
> The theory that's developing is that his mother was planning on admitting him to a psychiatric facility, and that angered him. He also felt that his mother loved the kids at the school more than she loved him. There was likely an "incident" at home that triggered that anger, so he got the guns, shot his mother, then went to the school to kill the kids and teachers that he resented.
> 
> Love and jealousy will make you do crazy things.




Thats starting to make sense now. I dont think many people would appreciate being admitted against their own free will into an institution like that.


----------



## Grunch

disect is just one tiny little (well not literally tiny) example of what is called "broad spectrum" autistic disorder. He might be socially functional and generally pleasant. Many Asperger cases are not. They can go into on a hate filled, belligerent, raging, violent episode at any time. Having some empathy and understanding the disorder is important. Understanding that they can go violently mental at any time is important too. Back in the day, these people were called schizos or maybe having split-personality disorders. We know there's more to it now. They still can be very dangerous all the same.


----------



## dreyn77

The quote about aussies commenting; this is cause they feel a need to partisipate in the 'global internet' because they are isolated from everywhere. (a country that craves stuff from other countries, but has no idenity for itself) Other countries are sick of their neighbours so they don't comment much. (how many Aussies have bought amps and speakers from their own country? they endlessly buy low quality, branded stuff from far away lands)
Are we solving the human BEHEADINGS in mexico as well? huh? NO! 
You have a war next door and you don't care? what's wrong with you! 
I think you should all go down to the jail and hand yourself in. we all get mental illness! you think your different than 'them'? NO, just had a better life and went down a different path. 
MJ said "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself".
The 'standard MF response' is in use here. ('attacking' and 'dobing in' each other. people have been doing this for thousands of years, boring!)


----------



## Australian

OMG now I really have a headache.


----------



## cowsgomoo

blues_n_cues said:


> no,I didn't say that @ all & I'm not isolating it to the Marshall forum if you read that post completely before quoting it.
> 
> and yes,I am an opinionated SOB but opinions are formed by outside influence.just sayin'....



Nope, I strongly refute your 'you don't understand what I'm saying' type response:

I did read it... and have strong doubts that the other internet forums you inhabit will have a significantly different demographic with regard to the relative proportions of Chinese/Russians/Iraqis versus Brits/Australians...

I just doubt there are as many of them... which why you don't read what they have to say about this issue to the same extent


----------



## Holme

dreyn77 said:


> The quote about aussies commenting; this is cause they feel a need to partisipate in the 'global internet' because they are isolated from everywhere. (a country that craves stuff from other countries, but has no idenity for itself) Other countries are sick of their neighbours so they don't comment much. (how many Aussies have bought amps and speakers from their own country? they endlessly buy low quality, branded stuff from far away lands)
> Are we solving the human BEHEADINGS in mexico as well? huh? NO!
> You have a war next door and you don't care? what's wrong with you!
> I think you should all go down to the jail and hand yourself in. we all get mental illness! you think your different than 'them'? NO, just had a better life and went down a different path.
> MJ said "If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself".
> The 'standard MF response' is in use here. ('attacking' and 'dobing in' each other. people have been doing this for thousands of years, boring!)



Dreyn please tell me you don't own a gun!

:Ohno:


----------



## blues_n_cues

cowsgomoo said:


> Nope, I strongly refute your 'you don't understand what I'm saying' type response:
> 
> I did read it... and have strong doubts that the other internet forums you inhabit will have a significantly different demographic with regard to the relative proportions of Chinese/Russians/Iraqis versus Brits/Australians...
> 
> I just doubt there are as many of them... which why you don't read what they have to say about this issue to the same extent



I didn't say by per capita demograpic.. I said virtually 0 comment on American gun issues. and we do have quite a few member from other countries than the USA,England,& Australia on all these forums. 

no worries.


----------



## Grunch

Google "I am Adam Lanza's mother"

Here, read this if you're interested. This is completely typical of people dealing with autistic children. Sometimes it seems as if they're not even human. 


Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
“I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
“They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”
“They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”
“You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”
I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.
Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”
“No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”
His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”
That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
“Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”
“You know where we are going,” I replied.
“No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”
I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”
Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”
At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”
By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.
On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”
And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am James Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”
I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.
No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”
I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.


----------



## Australian

I didnt know the Metallica tone cost a billion dollars. wow! I really feel like I'm in a zombie movie now.


----------



## Australian

Holme said:


> Dreyn please tell me you don't own a gun!
> 
> :Ohno:





I hope not.


----------



## cowsgomoo

blues_n_cues said:


> I didn't say by per capita demograpic.. I said virtually 0 comment on American gun issues. and we do have quite a few member from other countries than the USA,England,& Australia on all these forums.
> 
> no worries.



well, you're going to hear from a certain proportion of wind-up merchants I guess... there are certain people in the world that it's fun to upset - the rich, the powerful, the arrogant, the opinionated, the aggressive, the violent, the humourless... My wild guess is that white American gun enthusiasts would appear to tick enough of those boxes to make them a fun target for some (not me personally)


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex said:


> And apparently Adam Lanza was like that. He was a hermit, playing video games.
> 
> The theory that's developing is that his mother was planning on admitting him to a psychiatric facility, and that angered him. He also felt that his mother loved the kids at the school more than she loved him. There was likely an "incident" at home that triggered that anger, so he got the guns, shot his mother, then went to the school to kill the kids and teachers that he resented.
> 
> Love and jealousy will make you do crazy things.



Yep. A very unique case of events and personalities.


----------



## blues_n_cues

cowsgomoo said:


> well, you're going to hear from a certain proportion of wind-up merchants I guess... there are certain people in the world that it's fun to upset - the rich, the powerful, the arrogant, the opinionated, the aggressive, the violent, the humourless... My wild guess is that white American gun enthusiasts would appear to tick enough of those boxes to make them a fun target for some (not me personally)



probably. I'll have to ponder that during Christmas while I'm in the mountains of West "by God" Virginia w/ the other white God fearin' gun nuts.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

I was watching CNN a while ago, and a gun advocator was arguing that teachers should have AR-15s in classrooms from now on. 

You guys know there's been a spike in gun sales since the shootings? and guns and ammo are flying off the shelves.. sales, bargains, deals etc. 

That's the American society - a 20 yr old mentally ill guy guns down 20 five year olds.. and it sparks a surge in guns sales.. the AR-15 type rifle is the most popular in sales this past week, the same kind used in the child killings. 

Now call me old fashioned, but I find that such a freakish concept. 

I truly do not understand! - maybe I'm retarded....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

cowsgomoo said:


> well, you're going to hear from a certain proportion of wind-up merchants I guess... there are certain people in the world that it's fun to upset - the rich, the powerful, the arrogant, the opinionated, the aggressive, the violent, the humourless... My wild guess is that white American gun enthusiasts would appear to tick enough of those boxes to make them a fun target for some (not me personally)



 So true!


----------



## Adwex

Feeling Supersonic said:


> ...That's the American society - a 20 yr old mentally ill guy guns down 20 five year olds.. and it sparks a surge in guns sales.. the AR-15 type rifle is the most popular in sales this past week, the same kind used in the child killings.
> 
> Now call me old fashioned, but I find that such a freakish concept.
> 
> I truly do not understand! - maybe I'm retarded....



It is freakish, I don't understand it either. Americans like guns. Why?


----------



## Adwex

Adwex said:


> It is freakish, I don't understand it either. Americans like guns. Why?



Actually, I think I can answer my own question. Americans like guns because they are the easiest way to be powerful.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex said:


> It is freakish, I don't understand it either. Americans like guns. Why?



The 2cd amendment? - embracing it, buying guns etc. Probably makes Americans feel more American! -

Before I started to take notice of guns in America, I've learned there are over 300 million guns in the US, and 90 out of 100 people own them. 

There's no stereotype either as to the guys and gals that own them. It's a grand scale of the country that embraces guns. 

5 million guns are sold each year. 

Children are taught how to fire at ranges, it's a 'from the ground up' type of culture.

I've actually changed the way I approach this debate now. I won't insinuate or tell Americans they should change, or have better gun control. That doesn't work. 
America and guns, seems to be a very unique concept - that is a direct result of the 2cd amendment and the Bill of Rights. It's ingrained in culture and identity. 

It would be like telling Indian people to stop eating curry. 

Guns are the United State's favourite toy, past-time to their independent and identity. 

Arguing for change, you may as well run into a brick wall than discuss it.


----------



## Micky

People are going nuts buying these types of assault weapons because they are afraid they won't be able to purchase them any longer. They fear the inevitable.

I keep saying it is not about guns. It is about mental illness.

Because guns were used, there is no stopping the discussion about guns. Maybe we should add that to the list of banned subjects, along with religion and politics.

Here is VT, assault weapons with large ammo clips are selling like hotcakes. People here KNOW that there will be a ban on these types of weapons with the capacity to hold over 30 rounds. It is the only thing that the government can do.

Even I admit there is no need for assault weapons in the hands of anyone except police and military. That is, except for a zombie apocalypse...


----------



## cowsgomoo

Adwex said:


> It is freakish, I don't understand it either. Americans like guns. Why?



Because they represent liberty, freedom from oppression. Because they facilitate protection of ones family and property, protection of ones country. Because they are empowering. Because having a weapon in your hand makes you feel safer.

Because these upsides are seen to outweigh the downsides (mentally ill people and criminals can get their hands on them too)


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I was watching CNN a while ago, and a gun advocator was arguing that teachers should have AR-15s in classrooms from now on.
> 
> You guys know there's been a spike in gun sales since the shootings? and guns and ammo are flying off the shelves.. sales, bargains, deals etc.
> 
> That's the American society - a 20 yr old mentally ill guy guns down 20 five year olds.. and it sparks a surge in guns sales.. the AR-15 type rifle is the most popular in sales this past week, the same kind used in the child killings.
> 
> Now call me old fashioned, but I find that such a freakish concept.
> 
> I truly do not understand! - maybe I'm retarded....



well other than the fact that it's x-mas time,the apocalypse thing,and now Obama plus others wanting to reinstate the "assault rifle" ban,& recent presidential election,.... you know gun sales also go up after a major hurricane or other natural disaster & also before & after election time???


----------



## Adwex

Micky said:


> People are going nuts buying these types of assault weapons because they are afraid they won't be able to purchase them any longer. They fear the inevitable.
> 
> I keep saying it is not about guns. It is about mental illness.
> 
> Because guns were used, there is no stopping the discussion about guns. Maybe we should add that to the list of banned subjects, along with religion and politics.
> 
> Here is VT, assault weapons with large ammo clips are selling like hotcakes. People here KNOW that there will be a ban on these types of weapons with the capacity to hold over 30 rounds. It is the only thing that the government can do.
> 
> Even I admit there is no need for assault weapons in the hands of anyone except police and military. That is, except for a zombie apocalypse...



Because it's EASY for a mentally ill person to kill a bunch of people with guns. I doubt he would've put a bomb together in his fit of rage, or run to the school with a knife. It IS about guns, AND mental illness.


----------



## blues_n_cues

just for the record-if I offend anyone,I'm sorry.

yes I am very opinionated on this topic & voice it loudly-it's my country & our rights being discussed.

I also have a kindergartner that was attending school that day so surely you can understand my passion on the subject. 

thank God ours has an armed on duty officer there most of the time. the rest of the time the school IS LOCKED DOWN and has been since the Columbine shootings years ago. and BTW, this is in a farming/rural area too.


----------



## Reckless_Life

Adwex said:


> Because it's EASY for a mentally ill person to kill a bunch of people with guns. I doubt he would've put a bomb together in his fit of rage, or run to the school with a knife. It IS about guns, AND mental illness.



...and the fact that americans don't (know how to) keep their guns safe.

It doesn't matter if a kid has a mental illness or not. If kids can access your guns and ammo, you have a serious problem.
But I think americans don't see that as a problem, because they have a totally different view on what they consider to be dangerous or safe.

For them, having a gun laying around is like "_something to be careful with_" rather than "_something really dangerous_".


----------



## Username2

Why do gun sales increase after events such as this? Simple.

Half of the population in this country do not trust the current socialist government nor the media. They are open about their desire to outlaw guns. This event is being used right now to further that agenda. Everytime they speak their anti American crap sales soar. They are to stupid to see this.

Colorado happened and gun sales soared. The president is reelected and sales soar, now this. In the end it will come down to which side the military will support. If you outlaw guns then only criminals will have them.

When our financial system crashes how long before food shelves are empty, clean water isn't availible, and no fuel. The looting begins. People need to protect their families and private property.


----------



## Username2

.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Reckless_Life said:


> ...and the fact that americans don't (know how to) keep their guns safe.
> 
> It doesn't matter if a kid has a mental illness or not. If kids can access your guns and ammo, you have a serious problem.
> But I think americans don't see that as a problem, because they have a totally different view on what they consider to be dangerous or safe.
> 
> For them, having a gun laying around is like "_something to be careful with_" rather than "_something really dangerous_".



I think you are generalizing us & have no clue or proof. I am an American & I personally know different.

what country are you in?


----------



## Adwex

nuke said:


> Why do gun sales increase after events such as this? Simple.
> 
> Half of the population in this country do not trust the current socialist government nor the media. They are open about their desire to outlaw guns. This event is being used right now to further that agenda. Everytime they speak their anti American crap sales soar. They are to stupid to see this.
> 
> Colorado happened and gun sales soared. The president is reelected and sales soar, now this. In the end it will come down to which side the military will support. If you outlaw guns then only criminals will have them.
> 
> When our financial system crashes how long before food shelves are empty, clean water isn't availible, and no fuel. The looting begins. People need to protect their families and private property.



I'm not gonna say that this will never happen, but it is a gun nut's biggest fantasy.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> Actually, I think I can answer my own question. Americans like guns because they are the easiest way to be powerful.



That may be be the case for some. I think the larger part is we dont want to feel powerless. I own guns not because I want to feel powerful. I own them for protection. I own them because it is my God given right. I own them because I do not trust my govt or any other govt for that matter.

Since my rights (freedom of speech, religion, guns etc) are God given they are to be protected by the American govt. Not infringed upon in any way. So that means my govt must find away to address these kind of events without trampling on Americans liberties. End of story. No discussion about that. It is the cornerstone of America.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

The above text tells me everything I need to know. It tells me the founders knew what they were talking about when it comes to govt because they lived thru it. It wasnt some crazy ass theory of theirs. It also tells me our govt is out of control and has been for a long time. And if you believe as I do that our govt is out of control then you must also believe that it wont reign itself back in. So the abuses will continue. And it will get worse. 

2 things must happen here. 
1) The U.S. govt must address events such as this shooting without restricting the Bill of Rights. As we should all do our part as well. Whatever that is. 
2) As an American I must do my part to insure my children, your children and generations of children to come grow up with the freedom & liberties guaranteed to them by the founding documents.


----------



## Username2

blues_n_cues said:


> just for the record-if I offend anyone,I'm sorry.
> 
> yes I am very opinionated on this topic & voice it loudly-it's my country & our rights being discussed.
> 
> I also have a kindergartner that was attending school that day so surely you can understand my passion on the subject.
> 
> thank God ours has an armed on duty officer there most of the time. the rest of the time the school IS LOCKED DOWN and has been since the Columbine shootings years ago. and BTW, this is in a farming/rural area too.



Never apoligize for articulating your freedom and liberty. They don't give a fuck if they offend you. We need not to play their game.


----------



## blues_n_cues

oh BTW,in case there was a comment I missed,why this-
to make the point that these should have the orange tipped barrel so no person/kid having one gets accidentally shot by police,and for a stubborn possum w/out disturbing the neighbors who have a child w/ severe autism.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Crosman-M4-177-Rifle-Kit-Black/19866093


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> It is freakish, I don't understand it either. Americans like guns. Why?



Because americans are fat, lazy, paranoid, stupid sheep.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Because americans are fat, lazy, paranoid, stupid sheep.



Fuck you!


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> I'm not gonna say that this will never happen, but it is a gun nut's biggest fantasy.



Gun nuts can't fucking wait for the day that they can use their guns.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Fuck you!



Truth hurts.


----------



## V-man

gdh1532 said:


> I'm not for super strict gun control (although Japan's statistics show that severe gun control laws, that include mental tests and drug tests have the lowest deaths by guns) .
> 
> I think if the leaders of this country who wrote the 2nd amendment, saw the types of weapons that are available, and how they have caused horrible tragedy on the very soil they once stood and fought for. They might make exceptions.. when they wrote the laws, ball and muskets were used. Indians could kick their asses with the bows and arrows, because it took so long to reload. They might have made changes to the law.



If they knew blacks, women, and freeloaders (who vote based on entitlements promised) were going to have a prominent voice in the government, we'd be flying Union Jack over our schools.

This is a silly point and I still disagree. The point of the Second Amendment was for the people to have a check against the government and they would not have strayed from it. They DID provide a back door provision (known as the amendment process) so that in the event the successive generations turn into a group of snivelling cowards who revere celebrity Tweets about what to vote for want to send their freedoms to the toilet, they can do so at will.


----------



## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


>



Guitars and guns! Big Macs! Chevrolet! Fuck Yeah!


----------



## Username2

Only half Grunch.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Truth hurts.



Where are you from? Tell us so Americans can stereo type you. You dont even have enough fucking pride in your country to place it under your avatar. You probably believe in nothing and stand for as much. To lazy to have a belief system because if you did you would have to defend it at some time. And you just dont have that kind of character.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Where are you from? Tell us so Americans can stereo type you. You dont even have enough fucking pride in your country to place it under your avatar. You probably believe in nothing and stand for as much. To lazy to have a belief system because if you did you would have to defend it at some time. And you just dont have that kind of character.



I'm an American. It upsets me how blind, myopic, ass-backwards, closed-minded, and hideously stupid most of my fellow countrymen are.

And huge lolz at "You dont even have enough fucking pride in your country to place it under your avatar". Holy fuck that's hilarious. Like an avatar or posting your forum location means something. It doesn't matter where I live. Geographic pride is about as dumb as it gets. Thanks for making my points for me.

Phoenix, fuck yeah!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> I'm an American. It upsets me how blind, myopic, ass-backwards, closed-minded, and hideously stupid most of my fellow countrymen are.
> 
> And huge lolz at "You dont even have enough fucking pride in your country to place it under your avatar". Holy fuck that's hilarious. Like an avatar or posting your forum location means something. It doesn't matter where I live. Geographic pride is about as dumb as it gets. Thanks for making my points for me.
> 
> Phoenix, fuck yeah!



Like I said, you dont have enough fucking character to have pride. We have all read your post. You are nothing more than an instigator. A troll. A piece of shit who has no backbone. I bet you were one of those losers who couldnt even have the slightest bit of school spirit. Sat of to the side and made fun of everything because you are to stupid to know any better. Because you thought you were funny and cool.
If you dont like America and find nothing to be proud of then move out of country. Fact is, you dont even believe enough in that to do it.


----------



## diesect20022000

longfxukxnhair said:


> Like I said, you dont have enough fucking character to have pride. We have all read your post. You are nothing more than an instigator. A troll. A piece of shit who has no backbone. I bet you were one of those losers who couldnt even have the slightest bit of school spirit. Sat of to the side and made fun of everything because you are to stupid to know any better. Because you thought you were funny and cool.
> If you dont like America and find nothing to be proud of then move out of country. Fact is, you dont even believe enough in that to do it.


LH don't take the bait dude, he's poking at everyone any way he can including the autism community. it's just what he does man. laugh it off


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Like I said, you dont have enough fucking character to have pride. We have all read your post. You are nothing more than an instigator. A troll. A piece of shit who has no backbone. I bet you were one of those losers who couldnt even have the slightest bit of school spirit. Sat of to the side and made fun of everything because you are to stupid to know any better. Because you thought you were funny and cool.
> If you dont like America and find nothing to be proud of then move out of country. Fact is, you dont even believe enough in that to do it.



Did you have the star spangled banner playing in the background while you typed that out?

Pride is a false ideal. Pride is why nothing gets done, and everyone is angry with eachother. Pride is for the weak. Mentally strong people can see the good and bad in things, and not just blindly stand behind something because it's there.


----------



## Grunch

diesect20022000 said:


> LH don't take the bait dude, he's poking at everyone any way he can including the autism community. it's just what he does man. laugh it off



I'm not poking at autism.


----------



## diesect20022000

Grunch said:


> I'm not poking at autism.


 oh no of course not

not in this thread so much anyway. it's all good man do what you do.


----------



## Grunch

diesect20022000 said:


> oh no of course not
> 
> not in this thread so much anyway. it's all good man do what you do.



I have respect and empathy for people with autistic dosorders. I know how difficult it is for them, and the people around them.


----------



## diesect20022000

Grunch said:


> I have respect and empathy for people with autistic dosorders. I know how difficult it is for them, and the people around them.


 well i appologize for my base assumption man. error on my part.


----------



## Grunch

diesect20022000 said:


> well i appologize for my base assumption man. error on my part.



No need to apologize. Just a misunderstanding.


----------



## Username2

longfxukxnhair said:


> Like I said, you dont have enough fucking character to have pride. We have all read your post. You are nothing more than an instigator. A troll. A piece of shit who has no backbone. I bet you were one of those losers who couldnt even have the slightest bit of school spirit. Sat of to the side and made fun of everything because you are to stupid to know any better. Because you thought you were funny and cool.
> If you dont like America and find nothing to be proud of then move out of country. Fact is, you dont even believe enough in that to do it.



Fuck yeah.


----------



## Grunch

If you don't like it, get the fuck out!

Classic mantra of mindless flag wavers everywhere.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Did you have the star spangled banner playing in the background while you typed that out?
> 
> Pride is a false ideal. Pride is why nothing gets done, and everyone is angry with eachother. Pride is for the weak. Mentally strong people can see the good and bad in things, and not just blindly stand behind something because it's there.



Grunch you seem to be pretty proud of yourself. Perhaps that is why nothing would ever get through to you. Your a legend in your own mind. Why do you hate what this country was founded on?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> If you don't like it, get the fuck out!
> 
> Classic mantra of mindless flag wavers everywhere.



Classic reply from people who are to fucking lazy to make a change for their own benefit.

Change takes energy, belief and sometime emotion. All things you lack. Its just to easy for you to sit around and complain and troll. Proving it is you who is the lazy one.

Call me a flag waver all you want. I love my country. Im proud of that. It also allows scum like you to sit on the sidelines and complain all you want. You dont have any skin in the game because you dont have the courage to be right or wrong. Instead you sit by and just abuse the liberties you have and mock those who believe


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Grunch you seem to be pretty proud of yourself. Perhaps that is why nothing would ever get through to you. Your a legend in your own mind. Why do you hate what this country was founded on?



I am a little proud of myself. I'm proud that I have avoided being a mindless lemming. I'm proud that I can be a good citizen while not being swayed by loudmouths and their personal agendas. What needs to get through to me? Why do you feel that your opinion has to be shot into someone's head? Pun intended.

I don't hate what this country was founded on. I do think though that the constitution is out-of-date in many areas. It was written in the 1700's. It is now almost 2013. A lot of things have changed. I'm exercising my right to free speech. Freedom of speech includes pointing out what I believe to be hypocrisy and bad ideas - especially when exhibited by my own country. How is that hating the fundamentals? I'm happily using the most important one! It's really easy to wrap yourself in a flag and yell "God bless the USA!". But really, why? We're a great country....with a lot of problems....just like other civilized countries. I laugh at blind patriotism from any nationality. It's stupid. Sure, be happy, be proud, whatever. Don't sit there and pretend you're better than someone else though just because you were born in a certain place. And definitely don't pretend that you're better than me because you choose to blindly accept whatever dumb things your country does and I don't.


----------



## Reckless_Life

blues_n_cues said:


> I think you are generalizing us & have no clue or proof. I am an American & I personally know different.
> 
> what country are you in?



Yes I was generalizing it, because I don't want to point fingers at someone or do personal attacks. But generalizing or not, you cannot deny fact that there's yet another school shooting in the news, which happened in the States.

Anyway, I'm pulling out of this thread, because quite frankly, I'm a bit tired because any time something is said that doesn't fit into someone's picture it gets countered with "you have no clue, or where is your proof", etc... it's simply impossible to have a discussion of this magnitude without stepping on some people's toes.

Here's why:
The 1st part that I said is in the news and using common sense.
The 2nd part that I said is _my opinion _about how I see this (hence the "_I think..._"), I don't have a "proof" for that, but I think it fits well with what's on the news lately.

Anyway, have a good night and take care


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Classic reply from people who are to fucking lazy to make a change for their own benefit.
> 
> Change takes energy, belief and sometime emotion. All things you lack. Its just to easy for you to sit around and complain and troll. Proving it is you who is the lazy one.
> 
> Call me a flag waver all you want. I love my country. Im proud of that. It also allows scum like you to sit on the sidelines and complain all you want. You dont have any skin in the game because you dont have the courage to be right or wrong. Instead you sit by and just abuse the liberties you have and mock those who believe



Lol. Oh man, you are in deep. What would you like me to believe in? What would you rather I do? Come on captain america, show me the way! You are a naive and delusional muppet. Naive, idealistic, people like you are why this country is going down the shitter. It's not me. I adapt and survive. You scream and cry and help to further gridlock everything.


----------



## Grunch

Line right up everyone. Pick a side. Everything is black and white. You must pick a side though. You can't possibly see any gray, or we will think of you as a bad 'murrican!


----------



## V-man

diesect20022000 said:


> lol well you'll have to get over it AUs. I'm sure you can adjust.
> 
> it's my bands album cover. and no i have no reason to change that either wether you choose to feel uncomfortable with it is your prerogative.
> 
> but i'm sure they feel your support



It is amazing how retarded and puritanical people turn during tragedies. Remember the "white powder mailings" following 9/11? The fucking morons got so upset they demanded Scott Ian & Co. change the band's name to something other than Anthrax.

Case in point, start a band right now called "school shooting" or some other stupidly relevant offense. I don't think I have to post a prediction here of the reaction. Now in the same hypo (assuming no further incident) post that band in 19 months, and aside from a group of indignant people, it would go over without much ado.

This in the face that pretty much everybody DOES agree this was a senseless and horrible tragedy, but the suggestion is that while the sadness is real, the "outrage" among many is quite insincere.


----------



## Australian

Someone should start a gun Poll. It will be interesting to see who is pro or anti.
Who wants to start it?


----------



## Blokkadeleider

scat7s said:


> is it illegal to carry any knife? or only large knives?



Last time I went cycling in England the Custom's Officer did not want to see my passport. He only asked me if I carried any weapon or had any drugs on me.
I came from the ferry in Harwich on a fully packed bicycle and drew out a rather large blade (25cm long).
He said: "Well, but you're out camping so that's OK. No problem sir. Enjoy your stay!"


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Australian said:


> Someone should start a gun Poll. It will be interesting to see who is pro or anti.
> Who wants to start it?



Judging by that signature... why don't you start it 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Micky

Despite what anyone has to say, I feel it is time for us to all move on.

This was originally a thread to display our grief and heartache over events that happened in an elementary school in CT last week. Why can't we just leave it at that?

Instead we have gone from guns to mental illness, to the constitution, to almost everything under the sun. Why? Maybe because we all have a little anger and resentment over some aspect of the tragedy that may rub us the wrong way.

There is no need to slam each other for our beliefs, no matter WHICH country we live in, no matter what religion, what ethnicity, whether we are a parent or not, if we are good, bad, WHATEVER. We ought to be able to make our opinions known without ripping each others heads off. The OP was never about that. It was about tragedy.

It was about a terrible thing that happened, and how we now have to deal with it. I will bet there are several of us here who are still deeply troubled about what happened. Please don't let it morph into accusations and personal attacks. It doesn't help at all, and it just makes things worse. And believe me, things both here and in the rest of the world can get a lot worse. 

I admit this is a great place to discuss things but lately tempers are a bit on edge.
I don't wanna see anyone get butthurt (there I said it...) over anything as incredibly tragic as the incident at Sandy Hook ES, especially when there are so many other things that we have going on. It just doesn't make any sense.


----------



## JayCM800

Micky said:


> Despite what anyone has to say, I feel it is time for us to all move on.
> 
> This was originally a thread to display our grief and heartache over events that happened in an elementary school in CT last week. Why can't we just leave it at that?
> 
> Instead we have gone from guns to mental illness, to the constitution, to almost everything under the sun. Why? Maybe because we all have a little anger and resentment over some aspect of the tragedy that may rub us the wrong way.
> 
> There is no need to slam each other for our beliefs, no matter WHICH country we live in, no matter what religion, what ethnicity, whether we are a parent or not, if we are good, bad, WHATEVER. We ought to be able to make our opinions known without ripping each others heads off. The OP was never about that. It was about tragedy.
> 
> It was about a terrible thing that happened, and how we now have to deal with it. I will bet there are several of us here who are still deeply troubled about what happened. Please don't let it morph into accusations and personal attacks. It doesn't help at all, and it just makes things worse. And believe me, things both here and in the rest of the world can get a lot worse.
> 
> I admit this is a great place to discuss things but lately tempers are a bit on edge.
> I don't wanna see anyone get butthurt (there I said it...) over anything as incredibly tragic as the incident at Sandy Hook ES, especially when there are so many other things that we have going on. It just doesn't make any sense.


I said it before, but no one listens! (How many users have me on "ignore"????)


JayCM800 said:


> If there were no guns available... someone intent on killing will still find away to perpetrate.
> 
> The gun debate is fundamentally a constitutional issue.... I thought RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL discussions were not allowed on the forum...


----------



## brp

Well, it was nice to see you again, Grunch.
Happy Holidays.


----------



## Grunch

brp said:


> Well, it was nice to see you again, Grunch.
> Happy Holidays.


Happy holidays to you too.


----------



## Marshall Mann

> Grunch - No argument from me. I have a few guns for home protection myself.





> Grunch - If that's the second amendment in action, then the second amendment is dumb.



Before you guys get too riled up by Mr Grunch, consider his comments here. Interesting, dont you think. 

As long as you own guns Grunch. You are one of us, like it or not.


----------



## scat7s

Adwex said:


> Because it's EASY for a mentally ill person to kill a bunch of people with guns. I doubt he would've put a bomb together in his fit of rage, or run to the school with a knife. It IS about guns, AND mental illness.



adwex, ive read an article from a former FBI profiler, and her take was that there was no way this kid "snapped".

it was premeditated, methodical, and took considerable planning. he also had the presence of mind to destroy his hard drives and try and cover his tracks to expose as little as possible to authorities and the public after his plan was carried out. 


if guns were unavailable, my opinion is he would have gone out with a bang regardless. one way or another...


----------



## brp

^ That's not to take away from the very important point that guns should be kept secure and inaccessible to unstable people or those who really have no business accessing them.
That is, I certainly hope not.


----------



## scat7s

> ^ That's not to take away from the very important point that guns should be kept secure and inaccessible to unstable people or those who really have no business accessing them.
> That is, I certainly hope not



no, its not. my feeling is that the guns should have been temporarily removed from the home, as soon as this woman had decided she couldnt "control" him, and he needed professional care. but,i was responding to this sentence...





> I doubt he would've put a bomb together in his fit of rage



it wasnt simply a "fit of rage" as we had initially presumed, there is too much premeditation.


----------



## brp

Ya I know, just felt repeating that couldn't hurt. 

it's quite possible that he could have taken a couple of swords in that school and did some comparable damage (Evidently there was no large men or armed people around to effectively combat something like that either)

Didn't someone say he tried to buy a gun a week before? What's the source on this?
First I've heard of that.


----------



## blues_n_cues

blues_n_cues said:


> QUOTE]
> 
> oh BTW,in case there was a comment I missed,why this-
> to make the point that these should have the orange tipped barrel so no person/kid having one gets accidentally shot by police,and for a stubborn possum w/out disturbing the neighbors who have a child w/ severe autism.
> Get the Crosman M4-177 Rifle Kit for less at Walmart.com. Save money. Live better.


----------



## brp

brp said:


> it's quite possible that he could have taken a couple of swords in that school and did some comparable damage (Evidently there was no large men or armed people around to effectively combat something like that either)
> .





In retrospect, there was a locked glass door that visitors had to get buzzed-in through that he apparently shot his way through to gain entry before doing any real harm, not getting through that with a sword, so there's that.

But where there's a will there's a way.

Allegedly he was wearing "black military style gear" and a mask. Seems to support the pre-planned case.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Before you guys get too riled up by Mr Grunch, consider his comments here. Interesting, dont you think.
> 
> As long as you own guns Grunch. You are one of us, like it or not.



Fuck yeah! I'm going to Wal-Mart! Wait, where's my tractor? Anyone seen my Johne Deere hat? Yippeekiyay motherfucker!


----------



## Söulcaster

I wonder if The kids father was still in the picture would this all of happened...,,,? Maybe he lacked a male role model, combined with the fact his mother was a doomsday prophet,,,...just thinking out loud.

Peace


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

*The astonishing arsenal of guns handed in by people living in America's deadliest city - just hours after Sandy Hook massacre*












Massive response attributed to Friday's killings in Newtown, Connecticut
Those who showed up at Camden, New Jersey program were given up to $250 per weapon sold
Camden is known as one of the most violent American city, with a staggering murder and violent crime rate

Gun owners received $25 for BB guns, $50 inoperable firearms, $150 for revolvers, semi automatics, shotguns and rifles and $250 for assault weapons.


----------



## scat7s

hysteria


----------



## Username2

Most of that shit on the table wasn't worth what they were paying for it. If the stupid government is going to pay more than its worth hell yes turn it in. Then go buy a new gun. Thats what is going on there. Not like people are turning in $1000 gun to get $250.

Lot of junk on that table.


----------



## scat7s

it makes a nice photo opp...


----------



## Username2

scat7s said:


> it makes a nice photo opp...



Exactly.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> Most of that shit on the table wasn't worth what they were paying for it. If the stupid government is going to pay more than its worth hell yes turn it in. Then go buy a new gun. Thats what is going on there. Not like people are turning in $1000 gun to get $250.
> 
> Lot of junk on that table.



That's what I thought. Opportunity for peeps to get $250 for a $90 gun.


----------



## Username2

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's what I thought. Opportunity for peeps to get $250 for a $90 gun.



Yep, I see no good hardware on the table. Scratch and dent garbage bin. Libtard fail.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's what I thought. Opportunity for peeps to get $250 for a $90 gun.



The efficiency of america in action!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> Yep, I see no good hardware on the table. Scratch and dent garbage bin. Libtard fail.



$25 for a BB gun! 

Holy shit. People handing in BB guns.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Yep, I see no good hardware on the table. Scratch and dent garbage bin. Libtard fail.



Lol. It's hilarious that you think you can apprasie the guns in those pics. You might be right, but it would be a complete guess.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Lol. It's hilarious that you think you can apprasie the guns in those pics. You might be right, but it would be a complete guess.



Even I can see those are some old school shitty looking guns worth diddly squat!


----------



## Username2

Pawn stores cleaned out their bottom shelf inventory, Merry Christmas.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

chances are some guy/gal took 15 of their old shitty guns there, got a load of cash together and went for spending spree at their local gun shops for a nice pearly new AR-15.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Even I can see those are some old school shitty looking guns worth diddly squat!



I don't doubt that, but there's simply no way to tell definitively from those clusterfucked pics. Homeboy is just pissed that people could potentially be disgusted by gun ownership so he turns it into a negative.


----------



## DirtySteve

With the economy the way it is, of course people jumped at the opportunity to get a few bucks for their junk. Looks to me like they cashed in and kept the good shit.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> chances are some guy/gal took 15 of their old shitty guns there, got a load of cash together and went for spending spree at their local gun shops for a nice pearly new AR-15.



Or they went to Wal-Mart and bought some new american flag t-shirts.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Even I can see those are some old school shitty looking guns worth diddly squat!



Lots of shotguns in there. Pretty impossible to buy a decent new shotgun for $150, even the crappy Walmart kind are more.
Just saying.

Lots of crap .22 no doubt too though.

But ya, this feelgood stunt won't amount to much other than NJ Mayor and PD Chief saying "look we did stuff, see these pics?"


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I don't doubt that, but there's simply no way to tell definitively from those clusterfucked pics. Homeboy is just pissed that people could potentially be disgusted by gun ownership so he turns it into a negative.



Meh, I think he's actually disappointed they'd give people $250 for a shitty gun that's worth less. 

I could be wrong, but we both think the idea is stupid.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Lots of shotguns in there. Pretty impossible to buy a decent new shotgun for $150, even the crappy Walmart kind are more.
> Just saying.
> 
> Lots of crap .22 no doubt too though.
> 
> But ya, this feelgood stunt won't amount to much other than NJ Mayor and PD Chief saying "look we did stuff, see these pics?"



nuttin' but political bullshit.... 

we had similar thing in the UK, 'hand in your knife/blade' days at police stations. Knuckle dusters, num-chucks [sp], the lot. 

Peeps would hand in illegal machetes and samurai words , no questions asked.. but they didn't receive a cash incentive.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Meh, I think he's actually disappointed they'd give people $250 for a shitty gun that's worth less.
> 
> I could be wrong, but we both think the idea is stupid.



But that means the government now has that many more guns in their possession. Even a cheap gun can kill a God-fearing american citizen! Lock and load boys! Government is coming!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

They sell _guns_ at *Walmart*?? 

Or is that like some sort of expression?


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> I don't doubt that, but there's simply no way to tell definitively from those clusterfucked pics. Homeboy is just pissed that people could potentially be disgusted by gun ownership so he turns it into a negative.



Shutup Grunch, dont step into a world of my expertise. My gun collection makes my music gear collection look very small. You are looking at shit rust buckets. As hot as the gun market is folks can sell to pawn shops and to private partys if it was worth more. Garbage.


----------



## brp

SmokeyDopey said:


> They sell _guns_ at *Walmart*??
> 
> Or is that like some sort of expression?



Yes they do.

But not tobacco cuz that shit is dangerous.


----------



## Username2

SmokeyDopey said:


> They sell _guns_ at *Walmart*??
> 
> Or is that like some sort of expression?



Yes you can buy guns at Wamart. They have great prices on bulk ammo. Yes they sell tobacco and booze too. Soon pot here in Washington.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> But that means the government now has that many more guns in their possession. Lock and load boys!



I don't think tyranny will occur in developed countries like the US. 
Just my estimation. Since America had its independence, nothing has even come close to needing a well armed populous to avert such a thing. 

I think the Bill of rights was just a reaction to the political war at the time. 
It was a counter measure. Since then however, I believe it has a dated notion about it that's not needed. 

I believe guns were in the making and DNA of America. 

It's how the US was founded, shooting Indians .. taking land, then having a war with England that at the time were trying to put in laws that would disarm citizens.. I think perhaps it was an overreaction. 

But certainly, America was present at its own making with a rifle as its key insignia and symbol. 

It would be like telling an Indian to stop making curry for lunch... 
Or asking Jews to start eating pork. 

It's a very cultural thing in my opinion, and it will not change! 

I hope this isn't offensive! - just my observations.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Yes they do.
> 
> But not tobacco cuz that shit is dangerous.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic




----------



## dreyn77

Some have asked "do I have a gun?" 
I'm not the ones who are running over little kids going to school, with their car on their way to work! 
I'm more worried about YOU and your Car, than your character assasination attempts! 
Good to see the BS is still alive after the shooting. (people don't change in a hurry)
you want to bring back 'witch hunts' and 'asylems'. 
Do you wash your hands more than twice a day?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

dreyn77 said:


> Some have asked "do I have a gun?"
> I'm not the ones who are running over little kids going to school, with their car on their way to work!
> I'm more worried about YOU and your Car, than your character assasination attempts!
> Good to see the BS is still alive after the shooting. (people don't change in a hurry)
> you want to bring back 'witch hunts' and 'asylems'.
> Do you wash your hands more than twice a day?



Sounds to me like you own some guns.. 

Nothing to be ashamed of!


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Shutup Grunch, dont step into a world of my expertise. My gun collection makes my music gear collection look very small. You are looking at shit rust buckets. As hot as the gun market is folks can sell to pawn shops and to private partys if it was worth more. Garbage.



I don't at all doubt that you are a well-armed paranoid american that can't wait for the day that you can use your guns on people and bellow out a big hearty red-faced cholesterol fueled "I told ya so!". I'm just saying that you can't tell what's in that pic. It's piles of stuff.


----------



## LKrevival

Adwex said:


> The "guns don't kill, people do" defense isn't very compelling to me. If the guns weren't there, then the people couldn't use them to kill.
> 
> I feel pretty strongly that if Adam Lanza didn't have access to those guns, he wouldn't have used another weapon, and this tragedy wouldn't have happened.



You are possibly correct, we could never know how motivated he could have been to carry out murder even if he didn't get his hands on a gun or guns.

However let me lay out a scenario that isn't so far fetched.

A couple are going through a nasty breakup, maybe even what was a abusive relationship. Let's say it is the man who tells his ex that " if I can't have you nobody will" or " if you take my kids you'll pay". So the woman taking his threats seriously files a restraining order..ok. She then goes to buy a gun but because of restrictions she isn't able to get one or she has to wait weeks for the bureaucracy to go through. Days later the estranged ex carries out his threat, the cops respond to a murder scene, not a crime in progress scene because they weren't able to get there in time.

Now maybe the estranged ex didn't murder her with a gun because anti guns laws prevented him from getting one but he carried it out anyway but more than likely she wasn't able to defend herself because of those anti gun laws.

My point is a estranged or crazed person or criminal is more likely to be motivated to carry out a plan one way or another with laws not standing in their way.


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> *The astonishing arsenal of guns handed in by people living in America's deadliest city - just hours after Sandy Hook massacre*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Massive response attributed to Friday's killings in Newtown, Connecticut
> Those who showed up at Camden, New Jersey program were given up to $250 per weapon sold
> Camden is known as one of the most violent American city, with a staggering murder and violent crime rate
> 
> Gun owners received $25 for BB guns, $50 inoperable firearms, $150 for revolvers, semi automatics, shotguns and rifles and $250 for assault weapons.



I call BS on this. And if true some got ripped off. I see a nice lever action in there, I'll offer them $350 for it. If it is the one I think it is it goes for double that on the market. But, instead most of them are going wind up in some police officers private collection in his home unregistered of course.


----------



## LKrevival

nuke said:


> Most of that shit on the table wasn't worth what they were paying for it. If the stupid government is going to pay more than its worth hell yes turn it in. Then go buy a new gun. Thats what is going on there. Not like people are turning in $1000 gun to get $250.
> 
> Lot of junk on that table.



Most but not all, that lever action looks like a Henry though its hard to tell.


----------



## LKrevival

Actually looking at the pics further, it looks like some pawn shops unloaded some slow moving inventory lol.


----------



## Grunch

I see a few double-action XB9000's and a 1941 Krautmasher 55. I see a few Imperial Blasters too. Those are worth some money.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> The efficiency of america in action!



Here's your chance Grunch. Get in line and free yourself of the burden of owning guns! Come to grips with the hypocrisy, and give up your arms.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Here's your chance Grunch. Get in line and free yourself of the burden of owning guns! Come to grips with the hypocrisy, and give up your arms.



I'm celebrating Christmas in america.


----------



## Marshall Mann

LKrevival said:


> Most but not all, that lever action looks like a Henry though its hard to tell.



Just look at the condition of the stocks. 

And say what you will, I can tell what's not in there.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> I'm celebrating Christmas in america.



Sweet! Thats you on the left then. Funny, that pic makes you look old for your age.


----------



## dreyn77

They are just making way for the new shipment from overseas! they want these good quality ones off the street.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> I see a few double-action XB9000's and a 1941 Krautmasher 55. I see a few Imperial Blasters too. Those are worth some money.


 

These guns are set to be destroyed. 



I see all kinds of issues with guns Grunch. Not unlike a guitar that most here could plug in and play and note all sorts of issues it is the same with guns. Barrel condition, rust, missing parts or malfunctioning receivers all are a factors that lead to people not being able to sell their old guns. Just because it looks pretty you got to look under the hood. 

All I am saying is there are millions of guns that are not even worth $100, not even for parts or scrap. If you owned a gun and thought you could get more then what this program was paying you would sell it. Millions of guns on GunBroker which is eBay for guns.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Sweet! Thats you on the left then. Funny, that pic makes you look old for your age.



Yeah, unlike you, who is just old.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> These guns are set to be destroyed.
> 
> 
> 
> I see all kinds of issues with guns Grunch. Not unlike a guitar that most here could plug in and play and note all sorts of issues it is the same with guns. Barrel condition, rust, missing parts or malfunctioning receivers all are a factors that lead to people not being able to sell their old guns. Just because it looks pretty you got to look under the hood.
> 
> All I am saying is there are millions of guns that are not even worth $100, not even for parts or scrap. If you owned a gun and thought you could get more then what this program was paying you would sell it. Millions of guns on GunBroker which is eBay for guns.



So what's the best, most destructive, most overkill gun I can legally buy and still pretend that it's for "self defense"?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

22 Magnum Embellished with Diamonds


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> So what's the best, most destructive, most overkill gun I can legally buy and still pretend that it's for "self defense"?



Kind of a loaded question, it all depends what it is you need it to do. Take out a car, 50 people, a bear, it really depends. 

The most "destructive" gun I own ironically was made in the UK. It will take out small armor vehicles, aircraft, and boats with fury. .50 cal

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pCw5AkPzpM[/ame]

*Accuracy International AS50 *


----------



## SmokeyDopey

You shouldve used that to shoot the tubes.

Or a mortar. 
Are mortars legal? Can you buy one for household safety?


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Kind of a loaded question, it all depends what it is you need it to do. Take out a car, 50 people, a bear, it really depends.
> 
> The most "destructive" gun I own ironically was made in the UK. It will take out small armor vehicles, aircraft, and boats with fury. .50 cal
> 
> *Accuracy International AS50 *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TGYniz0KVs



Ok, so can I carry that thing in a holster so I can go to McDonalds safely?


----------



## Username2

SmokeyDopey said:


> You shouldve used that to shoot the tubes.
> 
> Or a mortar.
> Are mortars legal? Can you buy one for household safety?



I would have missed.  beside the bullets almost cost more then the tubes.


----------



## Grunch

And how many government officials can I kill with one? You know, for when they come trying to kick down my door. Does it shoot fast?


----------



## Grunch

Oh, and it's gotta have one of those laser pointer things. And a bayonet. Definitely a bayonet. You never know when you're gonna have to go old school on some government ass. Freedom!


----------



## Söulcaster

nuke said:


> Kind of a loaded question, it all depends what it is you need it to do. Take out a car, 50 people, a bear, it really depends.
> 
> The most "destructive" gun I own ironically was made in the UK. It will take out small armor vehicles, aircraft, and boats with fury. .50 cal
> 
> AS50 Incendiary Round (HQ) - YouTube
> 
> *Accuracy International AS50 *



What do you do with that? Hunting? Target? Take over small countries?

I'm also curious if it is kept in a safe or hung over the fireplace?


----------



## Australian

SmokeyDopey said:


> 22 Magnum Embellished with Diamonds



"hey I'm walkin' haaeer , I'm walkin heeaar!"


----------



## Grunch

Söulcaster said:


> What do you do with that? Hunting? Target? Take over small countries?
> 
> I'm also curious if it is kept in a safe or hung over the fireplace?



That's a back window of the pickemup truck gun. Fuck yeah!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph9f2bdW_Eo[/ame]


----------



## Grunch

What about a gatling gun? Can I mount a few of those to my car?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Australian said:


> "hey I'm walkin' haaeer , I'm walkin heeaar!"



Quote from _Back To The Future Part II_.


----------



## Australian

SmokeyDopey said:


> Quote from _Back To The Future Part II_.



This one:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c412hqucHKw]Midnight Cowboy - Im Walkin Here - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Username2

Söulcaster said:


> What do you do with that? Hunting? Target? Take over small countries?
> 
> I'm also curious if it is kept in a safe or hung over the fireplace?



That does not stay in my home. I am actually a "part owner" of it. I have three large Liberty Safes, so yes things are locked up. 

Liberty Safe - America's #1 Safe Manufacturer of Gun Safes, Fire Safes, Home Safes and More!


----------



## Marshall Mann

So Aussie, why the bashing on the US?


----------



## Australian

Marshall Mann said:


> So Aussie, why the bashing on the US?





How am I bashing?

Grunch and FS are. But me?


----------



## Marshall Mann

Australian said:


> How am I bashing?
> 
> Grunch and FS are. But me?



Sorry Aussie, my mistake. I thought I read a bash from you.


----------



## Australian

Marshall Mann said:


> Sorry Aussie, my mistake. I thought I read a bash from you.





If it was a bash, it was probably just directed at Diessect.


----------



## Mike_j

Reading through some of this stuff, it's hard to believe this thread is titled 'Connecticut school shooting'. Couldn't get much more disrespectful really.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Australian said:


> If it was a bash, it was probably just directed at Diessect.



No worries Aussie, I can even find the quote I was thinking of. As Grunch pointed out, I must be getting old!


----------



## LKrevival

Söulcaster said:


> What do you do with that? Hunting? Target? Take over small countries?
> 
> I'm also curious if it is kept in a safe or hung over the fireplace?



Get past the intimidating looks of it and consider this...

.50 cal rifles ARE used in extreme distance target shooting. There hasn't been one incident of them being used illegally ( that I know of). They are as long as a man, weigh like 40 or 50 pounds, cost is very high. It is not a criminals choice of weapon considering that. They at best can only hold ten rounds at a time.

Yet California banned them with a fear campaign. They were exclaimed to be used to shoot down helicopters (lol) and a potential weapon of terror even though everything I explained above.

The military does use them for extreme distance snipers, but the chance of a civilian ever doing that is so remote it isn't worth thinking. Fear and propaganda won, common sense lost in California.


----------



## Söulcaster

LKrevival said:


> Get past the intimidating looks of it and consider this...
> 
> .50 cal rifles ARE used in extreme distance target shooting. There hasn't been one incident of them being used illegally ( that I know of). They are as long as a man, weigh like 40 or 50 pounds, cost is very high. It is not a criminals choice of weapon considering that. They at best can only hold ten rounds at a time.
> 
> Yet California banned them with a fear campaign. They were exclaimed to be used to shoot down helicopters (lol) and a potential weapon of terror even though everything I explained above.
> 
> The military does use them for extreme distance snipers, but the chance of a civilian ever doing that is so remote it isn't worth thinking. Fear and propaganda won, common sense lost in California.


I've seen them used in Iraq, they can get up to 2km range or something like that..,,,I didn't know they were available to the general public...,,,


----------



## Marshall Mann

Söulcaster said:


> I've seen them used in Iraq, they can get up to 2km range or something like that..,,,I didn't know they were available to the general public...,,,



Currently the only all out ban is on fully automatic weapons. Everything else varies state to state.


----------



## Söulcaster

Marshall Mann said:


> Currently the only all out ban is on fully automatic weapons. Everything else varies state to state.



Honestly MM I didn't know why someone would want a gun like this..,,,I didn't know about long range target shooting and was hoping that weapons like this would be locked up when not in use, which as Nuke stated is the case.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

SmokeyDopey said:


> You shouldve used that to shoot the tubes.
> 
> Or a mortar.
> Are mortars legal? Can you buy one for household safety?



A mortar? That's a kid's toy.

This on the other hand?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wDSWNkX_0Q]Schwerer Gustav - YouTube[/ame]


Gr,

Gerrit.

*If you want to continue a useless discussion.... easy.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Söulcaster said:


> I've seen them used in Iraq, they can get up to 2km range or something like that..,,,I didn't know they were available to the general public...,,,



They are. A friend of mine has one. Legally. Here in the Netherlands.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Söulcaster

Blokkadeleider said:


> They are. A friend of mine has one. Legally. Here in the Netherlands.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



So Blok would you say the Netherlands has similar gun laws as the USA? Can you carry guns there?


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Söulcaster said:


> So Blok would you say the Netherlands has similar gun laws as the USA? Can you carry guns there?



Forget it. Nowhere near. He has one but he is only allowed to carry it from the locked closet in his home to the shooting range and back just like everyone else.
If you're a farmer and have permit you can carry a gun but only on your own land.
You're also supposed to have a background check and inspection at home regularly.

Also, running around with a gun has its risks here in NL.
Two of the men that were shot by police in this town were shot because they pulled a gun. 
In that case the cops don't wait and will shoot you.
No warning shots.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## blues_n_cues

LKrevival said:


> I call BS on this. And if true some got ripped off. I see a nice lever action in there, I'll offer them $350 for it. If it is the one I think it is it goes for double that on the market. But, instead most of them are going wind up in some police officers private collection in his home unregistered of course.



kinda like the Iraqi buyback program. they showed a guy getting $1000 u.s. for a beat up AK yet he's still got 5 more & an rpg @ home. 


Obama & his buyback plans-growing our deficit daily.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> How am I bashing?
> 
> Grunch and FS are. But me?



I'm not bashing america. I'm bashing some of the neanderthal goofballs that live here.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> How am I bashing?
> 
> Grunch and FS are. But me?



I'm bashing for irony! 
I just care about perspective - even from a country and individuals I like.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> Kind of a loaded question, it all depends what it is you need it to do. Take out a car, 50 people, a bear, it really depends.
> 
> The most "destructive" gun I own ironically was made in the UK. It will take out small armor vehicles, aircraft, and boats with fury. .50 cal
> 
> *Accuracy International AS50 *



 Holy Cow dude!!!


----------



## Grunch

Yeah FS, that's for "home and personal protection".


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Yeah FS, that's for "home and personal protection".



BS!

Made in the UK, but certainly not sold to citizens in the UK. 

Each to their own I guess. That Sniper rifle does look cool though, and I would like to fire some rounds with it. I see the attraction.


----------



## Grunch

I'm very limited in my gunmanship, or whatever you call it, but I do have a little experience with the big ol 50 cal. Several years ago I was friends with this dude from Michigan who had a friend that was a big gun nut. This friend of my friend had a house on a lot of land out in the boonies and liked to blow shit up. So one day my Michigan friend and I got invited out there to destroy things. We shot various handguns and stuff, but it didn't do anything for me. Then he pulled out this fucking monster rifle thing and set it up on a big picnic table. About 200 yards away he had some cinder blocks set up. He shot them with this big gun and they literally exploded. Poof. Cloud of dust. One bullet wiped out a block of concrete. Pretty cool, but that wasn't what got my attention. It was the insane percussive shock from that thing firing that got my attention. It was like it sucked the air away and then slammed it back at you in the chest. And then of course there was the total obliteration of whatever you shot at. The gun is completely devastating and completely unnecessary for any rational hunting or protection application. Anyone that thinks they need one of those guns is an absolute nutcase and probably shouldn't be allowed to have one.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Anyone that thinks they need one of those guns is an absolute nutcase and probably shouldn't be allowed to have one.



That's kinda besides the point, because it's legal and they have the right to own such guns.


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's kinda besides the point, because it's legal and they have the right to own such guns.



It only took 40 pages for something absolutely insightful and correct to finally pass through your fingertips on the keyboard.

Idiots who make this "who needs that" argument make me fucking sick. It's usually uttered from some vacuous broad who steps into her luxury SUV (formerly designed as military transport) on ther way to the mall for her 18th pair of $175 shoes... Or some asshole who walks off to crank his Marshall full stack in the basement of his 2200 square foot house. I don't know what's worse, the fact such people consider themselves good Americans (while disregarding all this nation stands for) or that if met tit-for-tat on the evaluation of their unnecessary excesses (that are NOT Constitutionally protected) the hypocrites would explode into a fit of dysentery.

Also, as an aside, any center fire rifle commonly used for hunting in the US will destroy cinder blocks. Assholes in the media like 60 Minutes have tried intimidating people with footage of an AK doing the same thing. Ballisticly an AK is on par with a 30-30 coyboy gun... Rather underpowered compared to many popular hunting cartridges (and an AR is far less than the AK).


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> It only took 40 pages for something absolutely insightful and correct to finally pass through your fingertips on the keyboard.



Hey dude, I can learn. I just have a funny way of doing it.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

V-man said:


> It's usually uttered from some vacuous broad who steps into her luxury SUV (formerly designed as military transport) on ther way to the mall for her 18th pair of $175 shoes...



And also if those SUV terrorists drive anything like in the Netherlands there is a legitimate need for .50 cal weapons.
I wish I had one mounted on my bicycle! Every day!


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> It only took 40 pages for something absolutely insightful and correct to finally pass through your fingertips on the keyboard.
> 
> Idiots who make this "who needs that" argument make me fucking sick. It's usually uttered from some vacuous broad who steps into her luxury SUV (formerly designed as military transport) on ther way to the mall for her 18th pair of $175 shoes... Or some asshole who walks off to crank his Marshall full stack in the basement of his 2200 square foot house. I don't know what's worse, the fact such people consider themselves good Americans (while disregarding all this nation stands for) or that if met tit-for-tat on the evaluation of their unnecessary excesses (that are NOT Constitutionally protected) the hypocrites would explode into a fit of dysentery.
> 
> Also, as an aside, any center fire rifle commonly used for hunting in the US will destroy cinder blocks. Assholes in the media like 60 Minutes have tried intimidating people with footage of an AK doing the same thing. Ballisticly an AK is on par with a 30-30 coyboy gun... Rather underpowered compared to many popular hunting cartridges (and an AR is far less than the AK).



Case in point ^^^^^^^^

Look at how angry and emotional these gun nuts get. Dude is foaming at the mouth. Ridiculous. These are the last people that should be allowed to own guns.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's kinda besides the point, because it's legal and they have the right to own such guns.



I don't begrudge anyone that right. I don't have to like it, and I will point out how ridiculous they are. Freedom of speech is also legal, and it's my right to do so. And frankly, I feel it's my duty as an american to speak out against these domestic terrorists that are trying to turn my country into the wild west.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Case in point ^^^^^^^^
> 
> Look at how angry and emotional these gun nuts get. Dude is foaming at the mouth. Ridiculous. These are the last people that should be allowed to own guns.



If that post indicates I am foaming at the mouth then it must be safe to assume your contributions so far on this thread indicate you have been shamelessly bawling mid-tantrum and openly masturbating.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> I don't begrudge anyone that right. I don't have to like it, and I will point out how ridiculous they are. Freedom of speech is also legal, and it's my right to do so. And frankly, I feel it's my duty as an american to speak out against these domestic terrorists that are trying to turn my country into the wild west.



Actually you have no understanding of that right. You have the right to voice "protected speech" (not all speech) without GOVERNMENTAL censure. As far as any other private venue including Internet fora, you have no rights. You are bound to the rules and guidelines set forth by the admins, and if they feel your "contributions" are more annoying or worthless than those of others (despite your belief they are on par) then you can kiss your troll account "bye bye"


----------



## Grunch

The gun nuts are getting upset. Don't shoot me, bro. We just differ in opinions. Unlike you guys that choose to force everyone into agreeing with you, I'm okay with the differences, and it let's me know I'm doing the right thing.

I was speaking in regards to public life. Freedom of speech. I'm not as forum-centric as you are. I can think outside of the computer monitor. In the meat world, i can express my displeasure with gun culture. Sure, you'd like for me to be banned. Any difference of opinion must be squashed down, right? One less guy to disagree with you. Yay! Homogenized thought and speech - fodder for the weak minded. Par for the course with the gun folks.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> The gun nuts are getting upset. Don't shoot me, bro. We just differ on opinions. Unlike you guys that choose to force everyone into agreeing with you, I'm okay with the differences, and it let's me know I'm doing the right thing.



You'll have to refresh my memory and point out where the "gun nuts" have forced anything. Or is vehemently arguing on behalf of the cause that our liberties are under attack by myopic idiots who think guns are icky and people need to prove their necessity to keep them legal.

Damn those pesky blacks... Always forcing their blackness on everybody by taking offense with people who want to disregard the 14th amendment and discriminate!


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> You'll have to refresh my memory and point out where the "gun nuts" have forced anything. Or is vehemently arguing on behalf of the cause that our liberties are under attack by myopic idiots who think guns are icky and people need to prove their necessity to keep them legal.
> 
> Damn those pesky blacks... Always forcing their blackness on everybody by taking offense with people who want to disregard the 14th amendment and discriminate!



Going to extremes - another tactic when you're out of ammo. Hey, a gun reference. Fuck yeah!


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Going to extremes - another tactic when you're out of ammo. Hey, a gun reference. Fuck yeah!



Grunch making accusations of going to extremes... Credibility: 0

Grunch merely offering a different viewpoint from the "homogenized" mentality here... Credibility: 0

Grunch convincing anybody (including himself) that any of the shit he spews is designed for anything other than getting a rise out of others because he doesn't have the social skills to have extra-Internet interactions with human beings... Likelihood: 0


----------



## Grunch

It's funny to me how self-righteous you are. Another common personality flaw found in typical gun nuts. Why? Just accept that not everyone wants to live like you do. Not everyone enjoys the idea of having to pack heat just to go to the movies.


----------



## Grunch

Anyway V-man, let's backtrack a little. I'm really not trolling you. I have my viewpoints and feel strongly about them. So do you. There's no need to get personal with it, and I apologize for any jabs I took at you.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Development ... 


Tuesday, Huffington Post counted "at least six states" where lawmakers "have outlined plans to introduce legislation in 2013 to allow teachers to carry guns into schools or require several teachers to be armed in school buildings." Those states: Florida, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota and Tennessee.

Let Teachers Carry Guns? Some State Lawmakers Say Yes | KNAU Arizona Public Radio


Btw., apparently the NRA has been silent out of 'respect for the dead', but are gearing up for a new campaign to 'push back' against the anti-2nd Amendment voices dominating the news ... which means in a month, this story will likely be all but forgotten.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Meanwhile, in Tennessee, they're considering 'secretly arming' teachers (er, so much for secrecy) ... 

Tennessee Considers Arming Teachers - Business Insider


----------



## Blokkadeleider

crossroadsnyc said:


> Meanwhile, in Tennessee, they're considering 'secretly arming' teachers (er, so much for secrecy) ...
> 
> Tennessee Considers Arming Teachers - Business Insider



Very nice. All that talk about arming teachers. 
How about training them first to handle weapons and respond correctly in an emergency?
If so, would it be a 2 hour theoretic crash course?

I see more dead around the corner...


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Blokkadeleider said:


> Very nice. All that talk about arming teachers.
> How about training them first to handle weapons and respond correctly in an emergency?
> If so, would it be a 2 hour theoretic crash course?
> 
> I see more dead around the corner...
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



They talk about training as part of the deal ... meaning, the 'resource officer' would presumably have to go through some kind of training prior to being armed in the school.


----------



## Grunch

I can't help but think that arming teachers is just a knee-jerk-we-gotta-do-something reaction to a bigger problem. Could it help? Sure. Could it be an even worse disaster? Sure. What if a teacher doesn't want to be Clint Eastwood? I remember having several very petite and frail teachers. What if a lunatic overtakes one of these frail or elderly teachers? He has a new gun. Are teachers going to get fired if they choose not to participate? This is just a bad idea to me. If we just have to turn every school into an armed fortress, I'd rather they have trained officers or guardsmen on watch than some little old woman with a gun in her desk.

Hell, maybe we could even set up a new branch of armed forces, or use the national guard. Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Recess Patrol. Hoo-ah!


----------



## Australian

Thats true. 
Arming teachers will be dangerous. Its so easy for a student to jump the teacher and grab the gun in a state of anger.

They'll have to have armored guards or a good surveillance system around the schools.


----------



## Grunch

Most boys can overpower a female teacher by the time they're 13. They won't need to bring a gun to school to shoot a classmate if the guns are already there. Great idea.


----------



## Micky

Not necessarily teachers, but a few select trained and capable staff.
Or have an officer in school.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

If it's secret, you won't know who to 'jump' ... I think that's the point of secrecy.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch, I see your points in a lot of things, but it's the Bill of Rights that you should be discussing, not individuals that simply abide by that Bill of Rights. 

It's too easy taking pop-shots at people who own guns, because their stereotype is easy to fabricate - I just think maybe you'd have a better time arguing against the actual laws and the history of those laws, than 'the people' who merely exercise them. It also seems to me it's the attitude you dislike too. 

Everything in the West is in excess - 

1. Cars capable of doing far greater speeds than necessary
2. People eating far more than necessary 
3. People drinking more alcohol than necessary 
4. People having sex with more people than necessary 
5. People earning too much money than necessary 
6. People owning more guitars, cars, fridges, houses than necessary 

Essentially that list can go on....but the point is they're all 'materials' and such. 

Why should guns be any different? - even if they are used to kill people and cause violence? - 

You're free to be decadent. Why own just one gun with a 100 rounds? if you like guns and the whole idea of them, why not own 5 guns and 900 rounds of ammo? 

There are laws in owning guns, but there are also laws against people misusing them too. 

Guns are an integral part into how America was forged into the possession and ownership of the white immigrant man.. and it's an integral part from the very beginning and basis .. almost the DNA of the individuals that live there.. 

Why do you need a car capable of doing 180mph? - well you don't but you can.. by law you're allowed.. 

Why do you need a gun? - well you don't, not necessarily - it might never be fired or used with regard to the 2cd amendment. but by law you're allowed and you're free to own such guns... doesn't matter how many or much ammo..... 

So you see it's the law, not the person exercising it, that you should debate.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> If it's secret, you won't know who to 'jump' ... I think that's the point of secrecy.



Okay, so a select few super-teachers have guns. What happens when the assailant hits an unprotected section of the school? They can't be everywhere at once. There's giant holes in every proposed solution. Armed teachers might help, but is it enough, and are we okay with these token knee-jerk baby-steps?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Grunch, I see your points in a lot of things, but it's the Bill of Rights that you should be discussing, not individuals that simply abide by that Bill of Rights.
> 
> It's too easy taking pop-shots at people who own guns, because their stereotype is easy to fabricate - I just think maybe you'd have a better time arguing against the actual laws and the history of those laws, than 'the people' who merely exercise them. It also seems to me it's the attitude you dislike too.
> 
> Everything in the West is in excess -
> 
> 1. Cars capable of doing far greater speeds than necessary
> 2. People eating far more than necessary
> 3. People drinking more alcohol than necessary
> 4. People having sex with more people than necessary
> 5. People earning too much money than necessary
> 6. People owning more guitars, cars, fridges, houses than necessary
> 
> Essentially that list can go on....but the point is they're all 'materials' and such.
> 
> Why should guns be any different? - even if they are used to kill people and cause violence? -
> 
> You're free to be decadent. Why own just one gun with a 100 rounds? if you like guns and the whole idea of them, why not own 5 guns and 900 rounds of ammo?
> 
> There are laws in owning guns, but there are also laws against people misusing them too.
> 
> Guns are an integral part into how America was forged into the possession and ownership of the white immigrant man.. and it's an integral part from the very beginning and basis .. almost the DNA of the individuals that live there..
> 
> Why do you need a car capable of doing 180mph? - well you don't but you can.. by law you're allowed..
> 
> Why do you need a gun? - well you don't, not necessarily - it might never be fired or used with regard to the 2cd amendment. but by law you're allowed and you're free to own such guns... doesn't matter how many or much ammo.....
> 
> Tangent over..



Not just white people, FS ... everyone has benefited from it ... the Civil War is a good example (freeing the slaves would not have been possible w/out firearms).


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

I guess in the making of England and the UK, it's a far more traditional and more longwinded development - in which case, citizens don't feel the need to arm themselves against tyranny. Through rigid debate and intellectualism, the powers that be determined that a police force without guns and citizens without guns would greatly increase the chances of peace in society, in which case it has been.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Okay, so a select few super-teachers have guns. What happens when the assailant hits an unprotected section of the school? They can't be everywhere at once. There's giant holes in every proposed solution. Armed teachers might help, but is it enough, and are we okay with these token knee-jerk baby-steps?



Well, short of having an armed guard in every hallway / office / etc., I'm not sure you can have an absolute lockdown ... and even w/all those armed guards, a kid could always just fire at people in the parking lot prior to school. So, no, I don't believe there is an absolute solution to it. This is also why I believe they have to look at mental health, rather than just focusing on arming people ... focusing on the mental health angle will help to identify people who might be worth watching a little more closely to begin with.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Grunch, I see your points in a lot of things, but it's the Bill of Rights that you should be discussing, not individuals that simply abide by that Bill of Rights.
> 
> It's too easy taking pop-shots at people who own guns, because their stereotype is easy to fabricate - I just think maybe you'd have a better time arguing against the actual laws and the history of those laws, than 'the people' who merely exercise them. It also seems to me it's the attitude you dislike too.


I don't totally have a problem with the constitution. It is what it is. I think it's outdated and dumb in large part, but I accept it. I can't change it nor do I want to expend the energy in trying to. I don't completely have a problem with gun ownership. I do have a problem with the white-trash flag-waving attitudes that commonly goes along with gun ownership. I think it's childish and stupid to be proud of being allowed to own a killing machine. It's not a status symbol. It's not special. It's a gun. I'm suspicious of the mindset in people that celebrate gun ownership.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Not just white people, FS ... everyone has benefited from it ... the Civil War is a good example (freeing the slaves would not have been possible w/out firearms).



White immigrant people founded America by force with rifles, then enslaved the black man for decades for their own benefit in worldwide markets selling cotton.

It's a very corporate country from its birth, right until now.


----------



## Micky

Like I have said, it is not JUST about guns.
It is a multi-faceted problem that needs a creative solution.
But I fear there will NEVER be a complete solution...
So what do we do? We use several aspects of what people have mentioned here.
I am not going to re-hash all of that, but suffice to say, there is a LOT more we ALL could be doing to help.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> Well, short of having an armed guard in every hallway / office / etc., I'm not sure you can have an absolute lockdown ... and even w/all those armed guards, a kid could always just fire at people in the parking lot prior to school. So, no, I don't believe there is an absolute solution to it. This is also why I believe they have to look at mental health, rather than just focusing on arming people ... focusing on the mental health angle will help to identify people who might be worth watching a little more closely to begin with.



Yes, exactly. More guns isn't the answer. That's been my position all along. Guns are a piece of the problem. Not the whole problem, but a piece. Crazy people by themselves are not really a problem. Guns by themselves are not really a problem. Crazy people with simple access to guns is a huge problem.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> I don't totally have a problem with the constitution. It is what it is. I think it's outdated and dumb in large part, but I accept it. I can't change it nor do I want to expend the energy in trying to. I don't completely have a problem with gun ownership. I do have a problem with the white-trash flag-waving attitudes that commonly goes along with gun ownership. I think it's childish and stupid to be proud of being allowed to own a killing machine. It's not a status symbol. It's not special. It's a gun. I'm suspicious of the mindset in people that celebrate gun ownership.



I get ya. 

I find it ironic when an individual.. does this. 

Proud of the flag, proud to be American, proud of their troops, proud of their country.. 

Yet from their government they are permitted to own guns.. and they're proud to own guns for the very reason they distrust their government!!!

That to me seems so ironic!


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I get ya.
> 
> I find it ironic when an individual.. does this.
> 
> Proud of the flag, proud to be American, proud of their troops, proud of their country..
> 
> Yet from their government they are permitted to own guns.. and they're proud to own guns for the very reason they distrust their government!!!
> 
> That to me seems so ironic!



It is. It's just another little taste of the ass-backwardness of america.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> White immigrant people founded America by force with rifles, then enslaved the black man for decades for their own benefit in worldwide markets selling cotton.
> 
> It's a very corporate country from its birth, right until now.



Well, that's not an entirely accurate account of the history of slavery, but I understand the point you are trying to make. My point, however, is that the ability to defend oneself has proven invaluable to people across the spectrum over time.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Well, that's not an entirely accurate account of the history of slavery, but I understand the point you are trying to make. My point, however, is that the ability to defend oneself has proven invaluable to people across the spectrum over time.



Well it's what happened. One of the reasons America was so well developed was because of the slave trade - 

The confederates wanted to keep slavery! hence 'The Slave States' - didn't America have a civil war because of it?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well it's what happened. One of the reasons America was so well developed was because of the slave trade -
> 
> The confederates wanted to keep slavery! hence 'The Slave States' - didn't America have a civil war because of it?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Yes, exactly. More guns isn't the answer. That's been my position all along. Guns are a piece of the problem. Not the whole problem, but a piece. Crazy people by themselves are not really a problem. Guns by themselves are not really a problem. Crazy people with simple access to guns is a huge problem.



I think this is part of the problem w/have in the United States ... we're so locked into republican vs. democrat / conservative vs. liberal / etc., that we tend to take a "this side only" approach to problem solving, rather than looking at both sides of the issue, and taking an more comprehensive approach. I believe that both have to be done ... both an emphasis on mental health, as well as an emphasis on preventative measures in the event that something actually does go down.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> I think this is part of the problem w/have in the United States ... we're so locked into republican vs. democrat / conservative vs. liberal / etc., that we tend to take a "this side only" approach to problem solving, rather than looking at both sides of the issue, and taking an more comprehensive approach. I believe that both have to be done ... both an emphasis on mental health, as well as an emphasis on preventative measures in the event that something actually does go down.



That all aims towards gun control to me. 

Which is stupid, because you have a 2cd amendment. 

The NRA have this covered so well.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well it's what happened. One of the reasons America was so well developed was because of the slave trade -
> 
> The confederates wanted to keep slavery! hence 'The Slave States' - didn't America have a civil war because of it?



There were more white slaves than black slaves at the time ... my point is that slavery had very little to do with racism until the lead up to the war. In fact, many of the slaves were referred to as 'indentured servants', and were Irish.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> I think this is part of the problem w/have in the United States ... we're so locked into republican vs. democrat / conservative vs. liberal / etc., that we tend to take a "this side only" approach to problem solving, rather than looking at both sides of the issue, and taking an more comprehensive approach. I believe that both have to be done ... both an emphasis on mental health, as well as an emphasis on preventative measures in the event that something actually does go down.



I agree, and this is in large part why I have no faith in the american system or it's people. People just choose a side and live in complete denial about everything unless it lines right up with their party line way of thinking. It's moronic.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> There were more white slaves than black slaves at the time ... my point is that slavery had very little to do with racism until the lead up to the war. In fact, many of the slaves were referred to as 'indentured servants', and were Irish.



I'm looking for stats on this and official info, but can't find any. 

Where did you learn that there were more white slaves than black?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm looking for stats on this and official info, but can't find any.
> 
> Where did you learn that there were more white slaves than black?



NYU (i majored in political science).


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> I agree, and this is in large part why I have no faith in the american system or it's people. People just choose a side and live in complete denial about everything unless it lines right up with their party line way of thinking. It's moronic.



There is no possibly way for me to agree w/this any more than I do right now ... you f'ing nailed it.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> NYU (i majored in political science).



You got any books to recommend or decent websites surrounding the slave trade?


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm looking for stats on this and official info, but can't find any.
> 
> Where did you learn that there were more white slaves than black?



I can help you with that:

Barbary slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And that is just the Barbary slave trade. The whole of slavery brought to the world from that cultural system in 1400 years makes everything else look like small beer.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You got any books to recommend or decent websites surrounding the slave trade?



One good way might be to conduct research under 'indentured servant' ... I'm not sure why, but most of the white slaves were referred to as 'indentured servants', rather than slaves (which in itself is racist imo). If memory serves me correctly, I believe it began in ernest with Charles I / James II (as a reference point for you ... though, check that, as I might have my dates off ... it's been a while haha).


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> I can help you with that:
> 
> Barbary slave trade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> And that is just the Barbary slave trade. The whole of slavery brought to the world from that cultural system in 1400 years makes everything else look like small beer.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



I'm mulling over this 

The Truth About Slavery, from the American Dissident Voices


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> One good way might be to conduct research under 'indentured servant' ... I'm not sure why, but most of the white slaves were referred to as 'indentured servants', rather than slaves (which in itself is racist imo). If memory serves me correctly, I believe it began in ernest with Charles I / James II (as a reference point for you ... though, check that, as I might have my dates off ... it's been a while haha).



So why do black people bang the drum about slavery, when there were more white slaves?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_Both psychologically and materially Whites in modern times are called upon to bear burdens of guilt and monetary reparation for Black slavery. This position is based entirely on enforced ignorance and the deliberate suppression of the record of White slavery in North America._

The Truth About Slavery, from the American Dissident Voices


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm mulling over this
> 
> The Truth About Slavery, from the American Dissident Voices



Oh, for fuck sake ... those people are fucking morons (sorry, rant directed at stormfront ... not you). I wouldn't rely on the words of a racist organization to paint an accurate picture.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> Oh, for fuck sake ... those people are fucking morons (sorry, rant directed at stormfront ... not you). I wouldn't rely on the words of a racist organization to paint an accurate picture.



 fair enough man...


----------



## Blokkadeleider

crossroadsnyc said:


> One good way might be to conduct research under 'indentured servant' ... I'm not sure why, but most of the white slaves were referred to as 'indentured servants', rather than slaves (which in itself is racist imo). If memory serves me correctly, I believe it began in ernest with Charles I / James II (as a reference point for you ... though, check that, as I might have my dates off ... it's been a while haha).



Well, if that is what you mean... since the church forbade slavery another name was invented, immediately after the christening of Northern-Europe. 
So that would make it the period from 700 to 1000 BC.
Serfdom is the name for it. A serf wasn't a slave but still property and ordered by his master... in effect a slave.
In these parts it was only abolished after Napoleon. Early 1800's.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Feeling Supersonic said:


> So why do black people bang the drum about slavery, when there were more white slaves?



They have a right to drum about it, because it's been turned into a stigma against blacks, as it paints them as somehow more 'sub-human', when there were white people in the very same position. When people think of slavery, then tend to immediately think of one person as dominant over the other (which it is), and when you can make it a racial issue, it can be used to stereotype an entire group of people as being subservient to another, as has been done w/blacks. It's a soft, yet very powerful, form of racism / stereotyping.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Blokkadeleider said:


> Well, if that is what you mean... since the church forbade slavery another name was invented, immediately after the christening of Northern-Europe.
> So that would make it the period from 700 to 1000 BC.
> Serfdom is the name for it. A serf wasn't a slave but still property and ordered by his master... in effect a slave.
> In these parts it was only abolished after Napoleon. Early 1800's.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



I'm talking specifically about the Irish slave trade.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

crossroadsnyc said:


> I'm talking specifically about the Irish slave trade.



Ah ok. Then you could also read the "The Fatal Shore" by Robert Hughes about the colonisation of Australia. A related theme.
Or... maybe you did already 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Blokkadeleider said:


> Ah ok. Then you could also read the "The Fatal Shore" by Robert Hughes about the colonisation of Australia. A related theme.
> Or... maybe you did already
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Actually, you're entirely correct ... Australia was the other main beneficiary during that period (along w/the west indies).


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

crossroadsnyc said:


> They have a right to drum about it, because it's been turned into a stigma against blacks, *as it paints them* as somehow more 'sub-human', when there were white people in the very same position. When people think of slavery, then tend to immediately think of one person as dominant over the other (which it is), and when you can make it a racial issue, it can be used to stereotype an entire group of people as being subservient to another, as has been done w/blacks. It's a soft, yet very powerful, form of racism / stereotyping.



 hehe...

Oh I see.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

crossroadsnyc said:


> Actually, you're entirely correct ... Australia was the other main beneficiary during that period (along w/the west indies).



Of course, being from continental Europe, I'm not too aware of things further away if they can be found closer to home.

_And... were not the Irish created by the Gods to serve us in the first place _ 

_Oh, Irish missionaries destroyed our holy oaks and groves back in the dark ages! They deserved it!_ 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> hehe...
> 
> Oh I see.



Oh come on I'm sure you can find a counter argument to adopt @ stormfront.org


----------



## Blokkadeleider

brp said:


> Oh come on I'm sure you can find a counter argument to adopt @ stormfront.org



I would help but although I only know their Dutch section they know me there.
Real effective trolling by me and a couple of mates led to the (ahem!) Dutch national socialist leader having been banned from there. 
The US mods there did not take lightly from someone who was supposedly on their side openly admitting on Dutch national television that he voted the Socialist Party and advising other nationalists to do so. 
The only thing was to convince them this was the actually case. And it really was. Nothing beats the truth.

Stormfront or as we say in Dutch, Strontfront (shitfront), are a bunch of idiots. They will probably have "discovered" by now that in some strange and mysterious way the Connecticut shooter turns out to be Jewish or something.
Really a bunch not to take seriously.

I admit I insulted them to the extreme in the end (in fact, I did not insult but tell them the harsh truth)


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## brp

Blokkadeleider said:


> Stormfront or as we say in Dutch, Strontfront (shitfront), are a bunch of idiots. .



Ya, believe me, you don't have to tell me 

Just taking a jab at FS quoting them directly in an otherwise useful discussion


----------



## scat7s

if adam lanza had a handler, i wonder what his ethnic background would be? or if it would matter.

too bad about those isreali sanctions. 

also GE dad...no more 200K in alimony and child support. its like a payday! 

its just the season for an event like this isnt it? gun control will be THE topic of discussion at Christmas dinner tables across the globe. 

did anyone realize that sandy hook had a brief but peculiar cameo in "dark knight rising" ? 

does anyone remember the "sandy hook hoax"? i believe it was over this past summer. a yacht was reported as blowing up off the coast of sandy hook. turned out to be a hoax...i guess. 

anyone remember "superstorm sandy"? 

lots of sand.
we're gonna need a whole lot more to bury our heads in .


----------



## Grunch

I laugh at slavery. My people weren't in the US yet when that was going on. They were still in europe. And when they got here, they worked like slaves themselves. So don't blame me, you black ass bitches. I owe you nothing.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Oh come on I'm sure you can find a counter argument to adopt @ stormfront.org



Reliable sources tell me that site is bullshit..... and besides, I don't care enough.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

scat7s said:


> if adam lanza had a handler, i wonder what his ethnic background would be? or if it would matter.
> 
> too bad about those isreali sanctions.
> 
> also GE dad...no more 200K in alimony and child support. its like a payday!
> 
> its just the season for an event like this isnt it? gun control will be THE topic of discussion at Christmas dinner tables across the globe.
> 
> did anyone realize that sandy hook had a brief but peculiar cameo in "dark knight rising" ?
> 
> does anyone remember the "sandy hook hoax"? i believe it was over this past summer. a yacht was reported as blowing up off the coast of sandy hook. turned out to be a hoax...i guess.
> 
> anyone remember "superstorm sandy"?
> 
> lots of sand.
> we're gonna need a whole lot more to bury our heads in .



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24]I Didn't Do It, Nobody Saw Me Do It, There's No Way You Can Prove Anything! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## scat7s

'For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.'


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> Just taking a jab at FS



As usual.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Honestly MM I didn't know why someone would want a gun like this..,,,I didn't know about long range target shooting and was hoping that weapons like this would be locked up when not in use, which as Nuke stated is the case.


 
Total load of horseshit. You claim you were in Iraq? In what capacity? It couldnt have been military. People dont do long range target shooting? Well i dont know about YOUR military but the US uses the tried and true method of practice to hone shooters skills. So do hunters, cops, security guards.........

One thing i hate is when foriegners try to tell me what i should do with my stuff in my own country, or tell me how my country would be better if it was more like theirs. Lived in Perth WA for a year pal, and i know the difference between the two lands........


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Total load of horseshit. You claim you were in Iraq? In what capacity? It couldnt have been military. People dont do long range target shooting? Well i dont know about YOUR military but the US uses the tried and true method of practice to hone shooters skills. So do hunters, cops, security guards.........
> 
> One thing i hate is when foriegners try to tell me what i should do with my stuff in my own country, or tell me how my country would be better if it was more like theirs. Lived in Perth WA for a year pal, and i know the difference between the two lands........



Huh? Are you on drugs?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat, taken from the Dark Knight Rises film.. 






Mind fuck! killings at that film in the cinema showing that film, then one at Sandy Hook..both young guys with social problems.. 

Both had a family member in General Electric too? -


----------



## scat7s

Feeling Supersonic said:


> scat, taken from the Dark Knight Rises film..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mind fuck! killings at that film in the cinema showing that film, then one at Sandy Hook..both young guys with social problems..
> 
> Both had a family member in General Electric too? -


 
thats something isnt it? 

apparently there was a scene (i havent seen the film, but did see a still photograph of the scene) where someones hand is somewhat resting on the map, pointing right to sandy hook. mind fuck indeed.

the holmes dad is a fraud scientist (in other words, he's a behavioral expert) and works for FICO? i think...

GE dad is a bigtime tax accountant. GE has made news in recent years for paying ZERO tax dollars while making BILLIONS in profits in those same years. he's pretty slick at his job i think its safe to assume...if he's paying 200K in alimony payments, you know the dude is probably raking in close to 7 figures salary. 

there is some dispute as to whether BOTH men are scheduled to testify at the LIBOR hearings, but one of them has been confirmed by mainstream sources i believe.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Our legal system is unwilling/unprepared to mete out justice on the basis of individual responsibility, our educational system is ill prepared to teach children how to become acceptable members of society, and our social units are unwilling/unable to provide moral guidance (or empower those who can). So, let's pass the scissors up front and wait for the next moronic act to legislate away more freedoms, rather than work on solving the problem instead of masking a symptom.[/QUOTE]

What exactly do you mean by our legal system can't mete out justice on the basis of individual responsibility?


----------



## Username2

Now the commie cocksuckers are telling us what to do. Sad thing is we're doing it too.

The Communist Chinese government, via its state-run media front Xinhua, has called for Americans to be disarmed, arguing that the Sandy Hook school massacre demands “no delay for U.S. gun control.”

Xinhua is virtually the press agency for the Communist Chinese government. The organization,“is subordinate to the State Council and reports to the Communist Party of China’s Propaganda and Public Information Departments.”

In other words, Xinhua represents the pinnacle of Chinese state-run media. Whatever is printed in its editorial pages represents the opinion of the ruling Communist Party leaders.

The article calls on Obama to exploit the tragedy to push his gun control agenda, adding that his lame duck situation represents “the best position to promote it,” while blaming the National Rifle Association for curtailing previous attempts to regulate firearms in the United States.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Huh? Are you on drugs?


 
Not at all. You on the other hand are playing the classic little game of " i'll say whatever i want and when challenged or engaged reply with absolutely nothing relavant that can promote your thought or idea." It's a fuckin childish way to engage in any serious type of dialog. It reminds me of arguing with someone who isnt even capable of passing off a good bullshit pickup line. All you get is dodge the question. With an attitude like that and an immaturity level of that magnitude is no fuckin wonder your government doesnt trust you with guns......or even with thinking for yourself.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Now the commie cocksuckers are telling us what to do. Sad thing is we're doing it too.
> 
> The Communist Chinese government, via its state-run media front Xinhua, has called for Americans to be disarmed, arguing that the Sandy Hook school massacre demands “no delay for U.S. gun control.”
> 
> Xinhua is virtually the press agency for the Communist Chinese government. The organization,“is subordinate to the State Council and reports to the Communist Party of China’s Propaganda and Public Information Departments.”
> 
> In other words, Xinhua represents the pinnacle of Chinese state-run media. Whatever is printed in its editorial pages represents the opinion of the ruling Communist Party leaders.
> 
> The article calls on Obama to exploit the tragedy to push his gun control agenda, adding that his lame duck situation represents “the best position to promote it,” while blaming the National Rifle Association for curtailing previous attempts to regulate firearms in the United States.



I normally wouldn't agree with the biased ravings of an obvious gun nut and would generally support anything that upsets one, but that mess coming from the chinese of all people is pretty lolicious.


----------



## brp

Feeling Supersonic said:


> As usual.



No. Quite the contrary. It's out of the ordinary actually. I usually restrain from responses critical of your posts and I do that routinely, FTR.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

brp said:


> No. Quite the contrary. It's out of the ordinary actually. I usually restrain from responses critical of your posts and I do that routinely, FTR.



 I was only joking dude! 

By the way, I don't mind if people 'call me out' as you guys say... 
Anytime man!


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Not at all. You on the other hand are playing the classic little game of " i'll say whatever i want and when challenged or engaged reply with absolutely nothing relavant that can promote your thought or idea." It's a fuckin childish way to engage in any serious type of dialog. It reminds me of arguing with someone who isnt even capable of passing off a good bullshit pickup line. All you get is dodge the question. With an attitude like that and an immaturity level of that magnitude is no fuckin wonder your government doesnt trust you with guns......or even with thinking for yourself.



Because unlike you I am not about to disparage an entire nation over one topic. With you it's not about dialogue, I could be here all day correcting your baseless assumptions when really all you have is a chip on your shoulder.

Go away, go and try to impart your huge ego on someone else.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Söulcaster said:


> Because unlike you I am not about to disparage an entire nation over one topic. With you it's not about dialogue, I could be here all day correcting your baseless assumptions when really all you have is a chip on your shoulder.
> 
> Go away, go and try to impart your huge ego on someone else.



 epic.


----------



## diesect20022000




----------



## V-man

rmlevasseur said:


> Our legal system is unwilling/unprepared to mete out justice on the basis of individual responsibility, our educational system is ill prepared to teach children how to become acceptable members of society, and our social units are unwilling/unable to provide moral guidance (or empower those who can). So, let's pass the scissors up front and wait for the next moronic act to legislate away more freedoms, rather than work on solving the problem instead of masking a symptom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by our legal system can't mete out justice on the basis of individual responsibility?
Click to expand...


What I mean is that out system of criminal justice works like a bankruptcy creditor.

The latter can't squeeze blood out of a rock, so it settles for what assets it can seize or settlement they can wrest, then they write the rest off as bad debt. With the former (CJ system), we have overcrowded prisons and a docket backlog. The end result is that many "lesser" charges or "challenging prosecutions" end up in plea bargain settlements. When the punishment does not stack up to the crime, there is no deterrent value. 

Consider a DUI. A first time DUI where the driver was not in control of the vehicle (with or without property damage but no harm to persons) is well known that even without representation, the odds are you are going to get probation, a fine and an ability to apply for work driving privileges. The situation doesn't get real until the second DUI and then good representation can mitigate that as well.


Now consider this trend applied to break-ins, violent assaults, etc. Even murders under certain circumstances have been able to get parole and be back out in as few as 7 years.


----------



## Username2

Gun nut? Name calling doesn't work on me Grunch, make note of that.


----------



## dreyn77

{Well, short of having an armed guard in every hallway / office / etc., I'm not sure you can have an absolute lockdown ... and even w/all those armed guards, a kid could always just fire at people in the parking lot prior to school. So, no, I don't believe there is an absolute solution to it. This is also why I believe they have to look at mental health, rather than just focusing on arming people ... focusing on the mental health angle will help to identify people who might be worth watching a little more closely to begin with. } by crossroadsnyc.
And who makes up this description of mental illness? Doctors. who controls doctors? Govenment. what happened to the (at the time) leader of russia, Mr Gorbachov? 
the 'mental illness' label was placed on him by people who wanted to take control of the country. what's the lesson?
Which 'side' are you helping by watching more closely???? The people 'in' power? the people trying to 'get into' power? the people who 'have NO' power? the people who don't know what they are doing? etc.... 
Can the people you are helping ACTUALLY FIX THE PROBLEM???????????? (this is VERY important)
Ask yourself LOTS of questions before you do something!!!!!!!! You ARE going to change someone's life forever!


----------



## rmlevasseur

V-man said:


> What I mean is that out system of criminal justice works like a bankruptcy creditor.
> 
> The latter can't squeeze blood out of a rock, so it settles for what assets it can seize or settlement they can wrest, then they write the rest off as bad debt. With the former (CJ system), we have overcrowded prisons and a docket backlog. The end result is that many "lesser" charges or "challenging prosecutions" end up in plea bargain settlements. When the punishment does not stack up to the crime, there is no deterrent value.
> 
> Consider a DUI. A first time DUI where the driver was not in control of the vehicle (with or without property damage but no harm to persons) is well known that even without representation, the odds are you are going to get probation, a fine and an ability to apply for work driving privileges. The situation doesn't get real until the second DUI and then good representation can mitigate that as well.
> 
> 
> Now consider this trend applied to break-ins, violent assaults, etc. Even murders under certain circumstances have been able to get parole and be back out in as few as 7 years.



Hmm, i am a criminal defense lawyer and that's not how I see it at all. It's true that most first time dwi get fines and probation, but i think that is proportional to personal responsibility. Not every mistake needs to get hammered. If you have a second offense, that's typically thirty days in my parts. The more you have the worse the punishment. That to me appears directly proportional to personal responsibility.

For felony charges, most states have adopted sentencing guidelines. The guidelines are a grid that incorporate a person's criminal history score and the severity level of the offense. Personal responsibility is built right in. The more irresponsible you have been in the past, the harder you gonna get hammered.

As for your last sentence, perhaps you are confusing murder and manslaughter? Manslaughter involves a death but the actor was negligent, not intentional. If your teenage boys gets drunk and rams a car and someone dies, but is otherwise a star student, athlete and good kid, is 7 years in prison too little? Some people can recover from a bad mistake you know. I call tell you all the parole agents i have met are intense dickheads, and far from lenient.

I think too many people have a poor sense of our legal system because they only hear about the bizarre cases. In my little rural county in northern MN the court processes about 100 criminal cases a week. Can you imagine the amount of crimes that are processed every day in the whole country? My guess is that about .001 percent of cases are decided unfairly. I am pretty happy overall with the criminal justice system in our country, but the sheer amount of people who commit crimes is astonishing. You can't blame a breakdown of moral fiber on the courts. They are just processing what's coming at them. There comes a point though that the more we punish criminals the more we punish ourselves. Exactly how much of your hard earned dollar do you want to spend on new prisons or extracting lengthy commits on the public nickel?

No sir, the problem gets fixed at home. Education, jobs and strong families are what preclude crime the most. Trust me, every dollar spent there is one less dollar spent on a new prison.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> Hmm, i am a criminal defense lawyer.



Do defense Lawyers get rapist's and murderer's sentences cut down to the minimum? is that your job?


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well it's what happened. One of the reasons America was so well developed was because of the slave trade -



A lot of those slaves would never have been slaves and forced from their homeland had they have had equal weapons as the slave traders.

Which that premise is the root foundation of the 2nd amendment.

I never understand it when a person is ultra anti gun but pro gun toward military and police and I especially don't understand it when it is a black, Jewish or gay person that way.


----------



## scat7s

> I never understand it when a person is ultra anti gun but pro gun toward military and police


 
me either.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

LKrevival said:


> A lot of those slaves would never have been slaves and forced from their homeland had they have had equal weapons as the slave traders.
> 
> Which that premise is the root foundation of the 2nd amendment.
> 
> I never understand it when a person is ultra anti gun but pro gun toward military and police and I especially don't understand it when it is a black, Jewish or gay person that way.



Good point! outdated, but nonetheless... valid.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Do defense Lawyers get rapist's and murderer's sentences cut down to the minimum? is that your job?



I have several roles within the criminal justice system. First and foremost i consider it my duty to make sure innocent people aren't convicted of things they didnt do.

But it is also my job to REPRESENT people, and believe it or not, that's what most criminal are, people. All criminals have different backgrounds, and they are not always as seedy as your imagination would have you believe. I do believe in sentencing guidelines, and find them to be fair. The guidelines have a range of time for sentences for rapists and murderers as well as drug dealers or any other felony offense. Generally i find them to be fair. But I do believe that you sentence both the person and the crime. You of course picked two of the most heinous offenses, so its hard to imagine the person might have other redeeming features. But what about drug convictions. If i have a guy that is supporting a family, has no prior record, is remorseful and wants treatment...it's my job to point out these features to a judge. There are many factors why people are treated differently under the law, as well there should be. I believe it is fair that anyone who commits a certain offense should have an expectation of what the penalty will be. But no one i have ever met in my life is all good or all bad. Some people deserve a break, and some dont. It's my job to make sure the judge knows who my client is, and its the judge's job to decide where that person falls in the sentencing guidelines. 

If you have a better solution to the American criminal justice system, please lay it on me.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> I have several roles within the criminal justice system. First and foremost i consider it my duty to make sure innocent people aren't convicted of things they didnt do.
> 
> But it is also my job to REPRESENT people, and believe it or not, that's what most criminal are, people. All criminals have different backgrounds, and they are not always as seedy as your imagination would have you believe. I do believe in sentencing guidelines, and find them to be fair. The guidelines have a range of time for sentences for rapists and murderers as well as drug dealers or any other felony offense. Generally i find them to be fair. But I do believe that you sentence both the person and the crime. You of course picked two of the most heinous offenses, so its hard to imagine the person might have other redeeming features. But what about drug convictions. If i have a guy that is supporting a family, has no prior record, is remorseful and wants treatment...it's my job to point out these features to a judge. There are many factors why people are treated differently under the law, as well there should be. I believe it is fair that anyone who commits a certain offense should have an expectation of what the penalty will be. But no one i have ever met in my life is all good or all bad. Some people deserve a break, and some dont. It's my job to make sure the judge knows who my client is, and its the judge's job to decide where that person falls in the sentencing guidelines.
> 
> If you have a better solution to the American criminal justice system, please lay it on me.



Thanks for the response. 

Secondly, do you own guns? 
do you support gun control? 

I don't mind if you choose not to answer. I respect that.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Gun nut? Name calling doesn't work on me Grunch, make note of that.



It's not just for you, it's for any crazed pro gun lunatic.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> Secondly, do you own guns?
> do you support gun control?
> 
> I don't mind if you choose not to answer. I respect that.



Both my father and brother were hunters when i was a kid, but i chose to waste my time playing guitar, lol. So while i did learn to shoot, i have never owned one of my own.

My feelings on this subject is that not all guns should be banned. That is a slippery slop that never ends. What's next, steak knives? But I personally do not believe assault weapons should be legal, nor any rapid fire type gun. I do not believe that anyone should have the right to possess an unlimited amount of guns, and i think gun ownership should be limited to ones designed primarily for hunting.

With that said, i dont pretend to know all the answers here. I am torn on many of the issues. And ya know what, that's how it should be. It's perfectly fine to admit its hard to know what to do but nevertheless try to fix what is clear to me as an apparent problem in our country. It's the people on the extremes that scare me. I think this is a matter of being reasonable. Possessing a .22 for shooting small game is far different than possessing an ak47.


----------



## Grunch

rmlevasseur said:


> Both my father and brother were hunters when i was a kid, but i chose to waste my time playing guitar, lol. So while i did learn to shoot, i have never owned one of my own.
> 
> My feelings on this subject is that not all guns should be banned. That is a slippery slop that never ends. What's next, steak knives? But I personally do not believe assault weapons should be legal, nor any rapid fire type gun. I do not believe that anyone should have the right to possess an unlimited amount of guns, and i think gun ownership should be limited to ones designed primarily for hunting.
> 
> With that said, i dont pretend to know all the answers here. I am torn on many of the issues. And ya know what, that's how it should be. It's perfectly fine to admit its hard to know what to do but nevertheless try to fix what is clear to me as an apparent problem in our country. It's the people on the extremes that scare me. I think this is a matter of being reasonable. Possessing a .22 for shooting small game is far different than possessing an ak47.



Yes to all of this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

There's no logical or sensible reason for someone to own 50 cals, AK's, or AR-15's. Tactical weapons are unnecessary for personal protection and you have to seriously question the motives of people that want that stuff. Limited capacity hunting rifles and shotguns? Fine with me. I don't agree with hunting, but I don't wanna stop anyone from doing it. Pistols are a gray area for me because they're small enough to hide easily and some of them can carry a good amount of bullets. With a .45 and a couple of clips, some moron can do a lot of damage. Handguns are ideal for personal protection though - if you actually intend to use it that way. I wouldn't oppose stricter guidelines on caliber/capacity limits, how many you can have, or who's allowed to have them. Not that any of that would change anything. Guns are so ingrained in our redneck culture that they're never going away.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> Both my father and brother were hunters when i was a kid, but i chose to waste my time playing guitar, lol. So while i did learn to shoot, i have never owned one of my own.
> 
> My feelings on this subject is that not all guns should be banned. That is a slippery slop that never ends. What's next, steak knives? But I personally do not believe assault weapons should be legal, nor any rapid fire type gun. I do not believe that anyone should have the right to possess an unlimited amount of guns, and i think gun ownership should be limited to ones designed primarily for hunting.
> 
> With that said, i dont pretend to know all the answers here. I am torn on many of the issues. And ya know what, that's how it should be. It's perfectly fine to admit its hard to know what to do but nevertheless try to fix what is clear to me as an apparent problem in our country. It's the people on the extremes that scare me. I think this is a matter of being reasonable. Possessing a .22 for shooting small game is far different than possessing an ak47.



Thanks for answering 

I have similar views on it too. It is very hard to decipher your beliefs when the debate gets bogged down by details and the nitty gritty though. The NRA are prepared for those debates though, it's what they prepare for. Huge funding and a lot of time to form the most strenuous of arguments.


----------



## Mike_j

LKrevival said:


> I never understand it when a person is ultra anti gun but pro gun toward military and police



Well if you're in the army, I thought your job was to be able to kill people if required.
Cops though? Just as crazy as everybody else. The fewer people that own guns, the better.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Mike_j said:


> The fewer people that own guns, the better.



I think this. 

But in terms of the US, it's different because they have a Bill of Rights that suggests a well armed society is a 'good thing' because it averts tyranny, and means people can defend themselves from the evils of man. Which is ironic really, but that's how it is. 

I stand by the idea that because guns are readily available, it means more murders take place.


----------



## scat7s

deterrence theory:

In foreign affairs, _deterrence_ refers to the use of the threat of military action to compel an adversary to do something, or to prevent them from doing something, that another state desires. *Deterrence theory* gained increased prominence as a military strategy during the Cold War with regard to the use of nuclear weapons. And,* it took on a unique connotation during this time as an inferior nuclear force, by virtue of its extreme destructive power, could deter a more powerful adversary* -- provided that this force could be protected against destruction by a surprise attack. A credible nuclear deterrent, Bernard Brodie wrote in 1959*, must be always at the ready, yet never used.[1]*


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Yes to all of this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> There's no logical or sensible reason for someone to own 50 cals, AK's, or AR-15's. Tactical weapons are unnecessary for personal protection and you have to seriously question the motives of people that want that stuff. Limited capacity hunting rifles and shotguns? Fine with me. I don't agree with hunting, but I don't wanna stop anyone from doing it. Pistols are a gray area for me because they're small enough to hide easily and some of them can carry a good amount of bullets. With a .45 and a couple of clips, some moron can do a lot of damage. Handguns are ideal for personal protection though - if you actually intend to use it that way. I wouldn't oppose stricter guidelines on caliber/capacity limits, how many you can have, or who's allowed to have them. Not that any of that would change anything. Guns are so ingrained in our redneck culture that they're never going away.




Horseshit to all this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you know anything about true violence other then what you have seen on TV and in the movies. 

BTW Grunch, a shotgun is best for home protection not a pistol, I recommend the Remington 1100. Load it with 00>slug>00>slug>00>slug>slug 

A pistol is best for when concealment is needed only, I recommend the Wather PPK for a pocket gun and the Springfield XD9 .45 for holstered pistols. 

If you have more then one person after your ass you better have at least a AR15, again this isn't that fake Hollywood shit. I recommend the AR10 as it has better ballistics. 

.50 cals are necessary because they don't knock at the door, the kick the door down and shove it up your ass. 

This post was brought to you as a public service advisory.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> Horseshit to all this. Do you know anything about true violence other then what you have seen on TV and in the movies.
> 
> BTW Grunch, a shotgun is best for home protection not a pistol, I recommend the Remington 1100. A pistol is best for concealment only, I recommend the Wather PPK for a pocket gun and the Springfield XD9 .45 for holstered pistols. If you have more then one person after your ass you better have at least a AR15, I recommend the AR10 as has better ballistics.
> 
> .50 cals are necessary because they don't knock at the door, the kick the door in and shove it up your ass.
> 
> This post was brought to you as a public service advisory.


----------



## scat7s

> a shotgun is best for home protection not a pistol


 
+1

hunting rifle is a bad idea too...you can shoot thru walls and into your neighbors house or apt if you are in tight quarters.


----------



## LKrevival

Mike_j said:


> Well if you're in the army, I thought your job was to be able to kill people if required.
> Cops though? Just as crazy as everybody else. The fewer people that own guns, the better.



Well that is the main purpose of the military, actually the main purpose of it is to defend the country and more often a country's interests.

The majority of soldiers are patriotic people who want to serve to protect you and I, their ideals are honorable. However soldiers fall under the command of politicians and the politicians are not always so honorable. Which is why the 2nd amendment is a check and balance in place should any politician or politicians ever become against the people, and by that we are talking about disolving elections, persecutions, martial law and such, extreme situations but none the less not beyond possibility.

The fewer that own guns the better? Maybe if you can disarm everybody but realistically you can't so a more even playing field is actually safer when it comes down to it.


----------



## LKrevival

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Good point! outdated, but nonetheless... valid.



Thank you but outdated? I disagree. Any given day reading news around the world tells me it is just as important as it ever was. Man's potential for evil hasn't gone anywhere. And while you and I live in what is considered civilized societies by most definitions man's evil could just as well show itself here given the right events or circumstances. Our civil and modern societies are a frail thing.


----------



## scat7s

LKrevival said:


> Thank you but outdated? I disagree. Any given day reading news around the world tells me it is just as important as it ever was. Man's potential for evil hasn't gone anywhere. And while you and I live in what is considered civilized societies by most definitions man's evil could just as well show itself here given the right events or circumstances.* Our civil and modern societies are a frail thing*.


 
and always have been when greed, corruption, aggression and violence are the foundations upon which civilizations are built. 

seriously guys, look at the historical record....go further back than the industrial revolution for God's sake....


----------



## rmlevasseur

nuke said:


> Horseshit to all this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Do you know anything about true violence other then what you have seen on TV and in the movies.
> 
> BTW Grunch, a shotgun is best for home protection not a pistol, I recommend the Remington 1100. Load it with 00>slug>00>slug>00>slug>slug
> 
> A pistol is best for when concealment is needed only, I recommend the Wather PPK for a pocket gun and the Springfield XD9 .45 for holstered pistols.
> 
> If you have more then one person after your ass you better have at least a AR15, again this isn't that fake Hollywood shit. I recommend the AR10 as it has better ballistics.
> 
> .50 cals are necessary because they don't knock at the door, the kick the door down and shove it up your ass.
> 
> This post was brought to you as a public service advisory.



The problem is that while you are shooting up the guys "after your ass" and they in turn are shooting at you, lots of innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Even collaterally the damage is significant. Wasn't the mother of the kid in Connecticut one of these psychos that felt she needed these guns? Here's an idea... How about live life in such a way that people who need guns aren't after your ass. I'd prefer my child not come in to school to find a kid with a gun that some paranoid ass left under his bed and his kid found. I mean seriously, if you are troubled enough to need a gun to protect yourself from others with guns, am i really supposed to believe that you are responsible enough to care about even safely handling a gun?


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Horseshit to all this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Do you know anything about true violence other then what you have seen on TV and in the movies.
> 
> BTW Grunch, a shotgun is best for home protection not a pistol, I recommend the Remington 1100. Load it with 00>slug>00>slug>00>slug>slug
> 
> A pistol is best for when concealment is needed only, I recommend the Wather PPK for a pocket gun and the Springfield XD9 .45 for holstered pistols.
> 
> If you have more then one person after your ass you better have at least a AR15, again this isn't that fake Hollywood shit. I recommend the AR10 as it has better ballistics.
> 
> .50 cals are necessary because they don't knock at the door, the kick the door down and shove it up your ass.
> 
> This post was brought to you as a public service advisory.



You made my points for me. You take too much pleasure from death machines. This is why guns should be restricted from nutcases.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

I was talking to a friend of mine about the subject, he mentioned something that made a lot of sense.

If things like this weren't made BIG... Maybe stuff like this can be avoided. They emphasize on the killer, and the damage made, as if they were points or something. It's almost as if it were _encouraged_.

If this were kept on the down low, kept locally I wonder how it would differ.

This was a horrible event, as well as the Batman shooting, but they made a lot of publicity out of it. 
The guns subject is the first thing that comes up. Get emotion involved!


I'm not saying this is a false flag event, but it makes you wonder.
Plus we all know mass media is full of shit and there is always an agenda behind it.

God damn it, 43 FUCKING pages man. We're all worked up. Worked like a charm for 'them'.


----------



## scat7s

btw, im not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but i guess the prevailing logic is saying that obama will try to ram thru some legislation restricting "assault weapons"

ummmm, isnt this the same president/administration that sells "assault weapons" to MEXICAN DRUG CARTELS???????????????????????

citizens are not responsible enough to posess them, but cocaine dealers are. oh, ok. guess its cuz they are better trained...being thugs and all

we'll all be safer. and cocaine for everyone!

funny part is, if they didnt get caught with the fast and furious, but it made its way to some of the independent news sites, most of you guys wouldnt believe it would you?


----------



## Australian

SmokeyDopey said:


> I was talking to a friend of mine about the subject, he mentioned something that made a lot of sense.
> 
> If things like this weren't made BIG... Maybe stuff like this can be avoided. They emphasize on the killer, and the damage made, as if they were points or something. It's almost as if it were _encouraged_.
> 
> If this were kept on the down low, kept locally I wonder how it would differ.
> 
> This was a horrible event, as well as the Batman shooting, but they made a lot of publicity out of it.
> The guns subject is the first thing that comes up. Get emotion involved!
> 
> 
> I'm not saying this is a false flag event, but it makes you wonder.
> Plus we all know mass media is full of shit and there is always an agenda behind it.
> 
> God damn it, 43 FUCKING pages man. We're all worked up. Worked like a charm for 'them'.




I'm with you on that too. 
The media will magnify these events as long as they cause a hysteric reaction in society.

Its a sad event for many and people will learn to do things differently.
But considering the amount of guns there are in USA the statistics are preety good.

Just because a plane crashes do we ban all flights? No we learn how to do it better.

F*ck I loathe the media!


----------



## Marshall Mann

rmlevasseur said:


> The problem is that while you are shooting up the guys "after your ass" and they in turn are shooting at you, lots of innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Even collaterally the damage is significant. Wasn't the mother of the kid in Connecticut one of these psychos that felt she needed these guns? Here's an idea... How about live life in such a way that people who need guns aren't after your ass. I'd prefer my child not come in to school to find a kid with a gun that some paranoid ass left under his bed and his kid found. I mean seriously, if you are troubled enough to need a gun to protect yourself from others with guns, am i really supposed to believe that you are responsible enough to care about even safely handling a gun?



I know your post was directed at Nuke, but I hope you will entertain my reply. 

I am pretty sure Nuke has never actually shot at anyone. And that is never the goal, it's the last option if you need to protect your self from harm. 

From your post I am guessing you have never been a victim of a violent crime? If it were as simple as living *my* life "in such a way that people who need guns aren't after your (my) ass", I would not need to worry about it. Unfortunately, the kids in that school and the innocent people in the Clackamas mall shooting here in Portland, lived normal innocent lives, they did not live a life where people were after them

I have been a victim of violent crime, more than once. I am a responsible person and a responsible gun owner with no other interests other than protecting my family from harm. And under my 2nd amendment rights, I expect to do so if it's my last option. 

As I have already stated (several times), the guns in this case were secondary. What we should all be focusing on, and what could actually have a significant outcome is *improving access to adequate metal health programs*. American history dictates that you will not show ANY improvement in violent crime by limiting the access of law abiding citizens to guns. Period. No one mentioned above had legal access to the weapons they used. 

We outlawed heroin, cocaine, meth, pot and alcohol. It did almost nothing. 

We are reaping what we sewed in the 80's when we closed the vast majority of our metal health facilities in the US. The politics and emotion around firearms are a distraction. Not a single post here (other than myself and CSY) or comment from the media or our politicians addresses the mental health problem that created these tragedies. They are feeding us what excites us.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Please take a minute to watch this if you have not already. 

She brings up good points on both sides and speaks from direct personal experience. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis]Suzanna Gratia Hupp explains meaning of 2nd Amendment! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## V-man

SmokeyDopey said:


> I was talking to a friend of mine about the subject, he mentioned something that made a lot of sense.
> 
> If things like this weren't made BIG... Maybe stuff like this can be avoided. They emphasize on the killer, and the damage made, as if they were points or something. It's almost as if it were _encouraged_.
> 
> If this were kept on the down low, kept locally I wonder how it would differ.
> 
> This was a horrible event, as well as the Batman shooting, but they made a lot of publicity out of it.
> The guns subject is the first thing that comes up. Get emotion involved!
> 
> 
> I'm not saying this is a false flag event, but it makes you wonder.
> Plus we all know mass media is full of shit and there is always an agenda behind it.
> 
> God damn it, 43 FUCKING pages man. We're all worked up. Worked like a charm for 'them'.




The point is understandable, but I disagree. I believe that crazy is a constant and such horrible things will happen regardless.

However, Smokey, you have to look at history here.

Every public place massacre since the 90s has received media attention. Almost without fail, the same stagnant positions have been brought up. After a few weeks, it's forgotten. This is one of the HUGE reasons why the guns get scapegoated. The Media's sole purpose is to generate viewership/readership. The media is not here to fix problems. An exposé on how terrible the mental health system is may make for a night of interest. Guns on the other hand are a hot button issue that generates more controversy and interest, that is all.

Thus, the media makes a circus of the event for viewership. An indirect consequence of this is that people realize that to do such a terrible thing will land them instant infamy. Here you are, this sick fuck, this nobody who is ready to die. You are angry at whatever, but above all, angry at life for not being special. Here is the solution: go on a rampage, and the vulturous media will be there to immortalized you.

Thus, the media doesn't "solve" shit, nor do they help . If anything early coverage and the inaccurate reporting prove what their real aim is: getting the viewer even when the info is inaccurate.


----------



## Username2

rmlevasseur said:


> The problem is that while you are shooting up the guys "after your ass" and they in turn are shooting at you, lots of innocent people get caught in the crossfire. Even collaterally the damage is significant. Wasn't the mother of the kid in Connecticut one of these psychos that felt she needed these guns? Here's an idea... How about live life in such a way that people who need guns aren't after your ass. I'd prefer my child not come in to school to find a kid with a gun that some paranoid ass left under his bed and his kid found. I mean seriously, if you are troubled enough to need a gun to protect yourself from others with guns, am i really supposed to believe that you are responsible enough to care about even safely handling a gun?



Your a Lawyer so honestly I don't give a shit what you think, I got about as much respect for guys like you as I do for those in government and those that would hurt kids. You guys think you know everything and are smarter then everyone else while so many problems in society today can be contributed to guys like you. 

Lawyers suck.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Your a Lawyer and honestly I don't give a shit what you think, I got about as much respect for guys like you as I do for those in government and those that would hurt kids. You guys think you know everything and are smarter then everyone else while so many problems in society today can be contributed to guys like you.
> 
> Lawyers suck.



Pot....kettle....


----------



## SmokeyDopey

V-man said:


> The point is understandable, but I disagree. I believe that crazy is a constant and such horrible things will happen regardless.



Exactly, and that's why the media takes advantage of what is _convenient_, depending on the agenda. In this case it is obvious, as we can see with all these lovely pages. And I'm sure there is a _lot _more to it.


----------



## Grunch

Yup, blame the media. Ted Koppel ran in that school and started blasting kids in the face.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> You made my points for me. You take too much pleasure from death machines. This is why guns should be restricted from nutcases.



Your car is a Death Machine. A bigger one in fact. Spare me your liberal framing. You don't like the 2nd amendment and try as you might it isn't going away. To many of us.


----------



## scat7s

yeah guys, leave the nice respectable truth telling media out of this! 

theyre just trying to give us the straight dope.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Yup, blame the media. Ted Koppel ran in that school and started blasting kids in the face.



We are really learning a lot about you here Grunch.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Your car is a Death Machine. A bigger one in fact. Spare me your liberal framing. You don't like the 2nd amendment and try as you might it isn't going away. To many of us.



My car isn't a weapon of violence. Anyway, you're right that the gun problem isn't going away. And that's unfortunate. This country is being hamstrung by you nuts. You are a domestic terrorist.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> We are really learning a lot about you here Grunch.


I would hope so. I'm schooling your asses all over the place.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> I would hope so. I'm schooling your asses all over the place.



I said were are "leaning a lot about you" I did not say any of it was useful.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Yup, blame the media. Ted Koppel ran in that school and started blasting kids in the face.



Wow, Grunch taking an apologist stance for something of other than for his own behavior... Oh wait, nevermind... that was just done for another crass witless deposit of tinder for another flame match.

I suppose the guns just marched in there like the magical teapot in Cinderella, and blew everybody away themselves. No? Well surely all these pro-nazi anti intelligent gun nuts all "peer-pressured" this sick fuck over to the schoolyard then, huh?

Thanks for more "worthwhile input".


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> I said were are "leaning a lot about you" I did not say any of it was useful.



Well I've learned nothing from you, so I guess I'm at least one up on ya, huh?


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Wow, Grunch taking an apologist stance for something of other than for his own behavior... Oh wait, nevermind... that was just done for another crass witless deposit of tinder for another flame match.
> 
> I suppose the guns just marched in there like the magical teapot in Cinderella, and blew everybody away themselves. No? Well surely all these pro-nazi anti intelligent gun nuts all "peer-pressured" this sick fuck over to the schoolyard then, huh?
> 
> Thanks for more "worthwhile input".



You are part of the problem. You take everything literally, and then get mad at it, and then shoot at it.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> My car isn't a weapon of violence. Anyway, you're right that the gun problem isn't going away. And that's unfortunate. This country is being hamstrung by you nuts. You are a domestic terrorist.



Ok Grunch you want call me a "domestic terrorist" now and make it personal. 

I will leave you with this, you're a coward. The reason you hate guys like myself is because we are the only thing that stands in the way of tyranny and full government control. You cannot define nor accept the responsibilities that come with freedom and liberty. Me and you are done on this topic.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Well I've learned nothing from you, so I guess I'm at least one up on ya, huh?



Well, you said it best, you consider learning nothing as a one up. As you said you prove my points for me 

Personally, I feel I have the most to learn from people with differing opinions.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Well, you said it best, you consider learning nothing as a one up. As you said you prove my points for me
> 
> Personally, I feel I have the most to learn from people with differing opinions.



Well my opinions are different, so sit down and shut up and you will see the light.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Ok Grunch you want call me a "domestic terrorist" now and make it personal.
> 
> I will leave you with this, you're a coward. The reason you hate guys like myself is because we are the only thing that stands in the way of tyranny and full government control. You cannot define nor accept the responsibilities that come with freedom and liberty. Me and you are done on this topic.



You're pretty paranoid and delusional too. Freedom!


----------



## rmlevasseur

nuke said:


> Your a Lawyer so honestly I don't give a shit what you think, I got about as much respect for guys like you as I do for those in government and those that would hurt kids. You guys think you know everything and are smarter then everyone else while so many problems in society today can be contributed to guys like you.
> 
> Lawyers suck.



Exactly, you lack respect. Not the type that should own a gun.


----------



## Grunch

rmlevasseur said:


> Exactly, you lack respect. Not the type that should own a gun.



Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Clearly these instable, angry, over-emotional windbags should not be allowed to own weapons of any kind.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> You are part of the problem. You take everything literally, and then get mad at it, and then shoot at it.



Problems are like a wheel Grunch. The source is always is in the center. 

You have already been banned twice from this forum. You are at the heart of or involved with the majority of the arguments here. Before you throw rocks, you should check for windows.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Problems are like a wheel Grunch. The source is always is in the center.
> 
> You have already been banned twice from this forum. You are at the heart of or involved with the majority of the arguments here. Before you throw rocks, you should check for windows.



Thanks Oprah, but my previously being banned and the gun problem in america are not related in any way. But I'm sure you'll get your wish soon enough...


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Thanks Oprah, but my previously being banned and the gun problem in america are not related in any way. But I'm sure you'll get your wish soon enough...



It's a self fulfilling prophecy my friend.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Well my opinions are different, so sit down and shut up and you will see the light.





"The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."

- John Walter Wayland


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> It's a self fulfilling prophecy my friend.



Click your heels three times and it will probably come true.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> "The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."
> 
> - John Walter Wayland



Lots of self-righteousness and hypocrisy in this thread.


----------



## Username2

rmlevasseur said:


> Exactly, you lack respect. Not the type that should own a gun.



Well guess what Skippy, you don't get to tell me to put my guns away. I have a "right" to have them, you do understand legally what that means. 

Bet it bothers you to no end that you cannot exercise anything punitive toward me with your verdict of "lack of respect" and "that I should not own guns". 

You are right in half your verdict though councilor, I do have a massive lack of respect for lawyers. Lawyers suck.


----------



## Grunch

Fun thread. You guys are hilarious. Well done


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Lots of self-righteousness and hypocrisy in this thread.



Absolutely.



Grunch said:


> Well my opinions are different, so sit down and shut up and you will see the light.






Grunch said:


> I own a couple guns for self defense.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Absolutely.



Lol. Not bad, but I explained myself fully. Let me know what's keeping you confused and I'll explain it again. I don't mind.


----------



## V-man

nuke said:


> Ok Grunch you want call me a "domestic terrorist" now and make it personal.
> 
> I will leave you with this, you're a coward. The reason you hate guys like myself is because we are the only thing that stands in the way of tyranny and full government control. You cannot define nor accept the responsibilities that come with freedom and liberty. Me and you are done on this topic.



You are half-right. He is a coward, but that's not what or why he hates. He is on this board a microcosm of the sick fuck responsible for this tragedy. You have a middle-aged Volvo-driving drummer spending all this energy arguing with every fight he can get into (and when none exist, tries to bait the next) Banned twice and likely to the day of the timeout lift he is back and within 48 hours making up for lost time.

So what is an individual with a mere half-legit interest in the site's main focus who has been banned twice and received a middle finger from no less than half of the site population doing backs here again as the same unrepentant shit stirring troll he was from the start?

Like our piece of shit, he is simply a malcontent who has nothing better to do and nowhere better to go. Socially awkward, and sorely neglected, he has come to understand that negative attention is better than none at all and what a selfish attention whore both have proven to be.

One does the unspeakable in order to earn his attention and infamy, and the other does the boring and predictable. Even the universal bitterness of Papus was enjoyed, because he was comedic enough to let you in on the joke.

Grunch on the other hand is one big (Internet) ego inhabiting the shell of a very small overlooked man. This little shell with the ego problem would be the know-it-all tech bully if he had the knowledge, or the class clown if be had the humor. He would secretly love to have the approval of a gaggle of "nut riders" here, but he is too short on patience and skill to achieve this. Instead, he goes for the easy route, he feeds his ego trying to generate importance through antipathy. Best of all, he knows the formula is reasonably successful.

The saddest part of all was that if he only had the social skills to "contribute" here he would likely have been accepted around here. I am certain this assessment merits a full page of "what a delusional self-righteous windbag you are, gun nut" or "Lulz, didn't read your boring rant", but after returning twice from exile to a place that has no use and even less desire for him, there really is zero arguing with the premise he is a sad and troubled old man. 

Maybe we should be glad he is so obnoxious about "gun nuts" because more weapon-inclined, and this frustrated socially awkward may have found himself in the papers long ago. It's really not worth being angry at him, and though this gets a rise out of him worse than anything else (and not generated for such), he really is someone who merits pity.


----------



## Grunch

Holy lol at that rambling mess. Someone has a little crush on me.


----------



## matt3310

V-man said:


> You are half-right. He is a coward, but that's not what of why he hates. He is on this board a microcosm of the sick fuck responsible for this tragedy. You have a middle-aged Volvo-driving drummer spending all this energy arguing with every fight he can get into (and when none exist, tries to bait the next) Banned twice and likely to the day of the timeout lift he is back and within 48 hours making up for lost time.
> 
> So what individual with a mere half-legit interest in the site's main focus who has been banned twice and received a middle finger from no less than half of the site population doing backs here again as the same unrepentant shit stirring troll he was from the start?
> 
> Like our piece of shit, he is simply a malcontent who has nothing better tondo and nowhere better to go. Socially awkward, and sorely neglected, he has come to understand that negative attention is better than none at all and what a selfish attention whore both have proven to be.
> 
> One does the unspeakable in order to earn his attention and infamy, and the other does the boring and predictable. Even the universal bitterness of Papus was enjoyed, because he was comedic enough to let you in on the joke.
> 
> Grunch on the other hand is one big (Internet) ego inhabiting the shell of a very small overlooked man. This little shell with the ego problem would be the know-it-all tech bully if he had the knowledge, or the class clown if be had the humor. He would secretly love to have the approval of a gaggle of "nut riders" here, but he is too short on patience and skill to achieve this. Instead, he goes for the easy route, he feeds his ego trying to generate importance through antipathy. Best of all, he knows the formula is reasonably successful.
> 
> The saddest part of all was that if he only had the social skills to "contribute" here he would likely have been accepted around here. I am certain this assessment merits a full page of "what a delusional self-righteous windbag you are, gun nut" or "Lulz, didn't read your boring rant", but after returning twice from exile to a place that has no use and even less desire for him, there really is zero arguing with the premise he is a sad and troubled old man.
> 
> Maybe we should be glad he is so only obnoxious about "gun nuts" because more weapon-inclined, and this frustrated socially awkward may have found himself in the papers long ago. It's really not worth being angry at him, and though this gets a rise out of him worse than anything else (and not generated for such), he really is someone who merits pity.




Well said my friend!


----------



## Grunch

Circle those wagons! Lock and load! We're headed to Wal-Mart!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> Lol. Not bad, but I explained myself fully. Let me know what's keeping you confused and I'll explain it again. I don't mind.



A change of heart from you Gruch? Please, dont be kind for my sake. 

Read your posts again, I don't think I am the one that's confused.


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> A change of heart from you Gruch? Please, dont be kind for my sake.
> 
> Read your posts again, I don't think I am the one that's confused.



You are. I explained myself pretty clearly. If you can't understand what I'm saying, I'll dumb it down for you. I don't want to be misunderstood, but I realize you're probably going to intentionally.


----------



## Username2

Whole lot of 6100 whoop ass in the house right now,


----------



## Grunch

I was pretty neutral on guns before, but you guys have shown me clear as day that they need to be taken away, or way more strictly regulated, and you guys need to be put in mental hospitals. Seriously, if you blowhards are representative of the gun loving community, then it's no wonder we're so fucked.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

nuke said:


> Whole lot of 6100 whoop ass in the house right now,


----------



## SmokeyDopey




----------



## Grunch

Yeah, goodnight guys. Sleep tight. Lock and load.


----------



## diesect20022000

SmokeyDopey said:


>


----------



## brp

nuke said:


> Your a Lawyer so honestly I don't give a shit what you think, I got about as much respect for guys like you as I do for those in government and those that would hurt kids. You guys think you know everything and are smarter then everyone else while so many problems in society today can be contributed to guys like you.
> 
> Lawyers suck.



The irony is that without "guys like him" that government you fear would have taken a lot more freedoms than just your guns away long ago.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> You are. I explained myself pretty clearly. If you can't understand what I'm saying, I'll dumb it down for you. I don't want to be misunderstood, but I realize you're probably going to intentionally.



Respectfully, I don't think you did. I have read your posts (where you admitted that you did not read mine). You have been hypocritical, inconsiderate and condescending here, and I for one need no further explanations from you. Your posts are accurate enough.


----------



## Grunch

OK suit yourself. Good night.:


----------



## blues_n_cues

not everyone needs a large caliber hi-cap magaine firearm but some do. 
Bears in Alaska,huge feral hogs in the south,mountail lions,etc.
no, the urban dweller in New Orleans during Katrina/the L.A. riots,etc... doesnt' need one...or did he?? 
A butcher or BBQ cook needs knifes & even saws of different sizes but not the biggest one in every situation..the same may be said for firearms. 

check this out,specifically the second victim-
Luby's massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and please get it right since the media can't. we're talking about firearms here.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

LKrevival said:


> Thank you but outdated? I disagree. Any given day reading news around the world tells me it is just as important as it ever was. Man's potential for evil hasn't gone anywhere. And while you and I live in what is considered civilized societies by most definitions man's evil could just as well show itself here given the right events or circumstances. Our civil and modern societies are a frail thing.



I say outdated because the Bill of Rights was written so long ago, and it was written around a time when US citizens were threatened and had to defend their liberty with rifles. 

As such, rifles are your symbolism for liberty and freedom from oppression. 

It's in your DNA as Americans - especially if you're a patriotic individual. It's a catch 22 however. 

Have you ever considered why other countries don't need citizens with guns? and considered as such why those countries murder rates and public shooting massacres are so low? 

and I ask that question seriously, I'd like to read your response without making a comparison to the US or your constitution or Bill of Rights. 

I know why guns are so important to Americans - 
but through the same calculus, I understand why you have roughly 12,000 homicides a year due to handguns, and I know why Sandy Hook massacres occur. It can be seen through same magnifying glass.... 

Not bashing the US here, but it's just that there's seems to be a lack of acknowledgment at how 'The USs way of doing things, is to get the guns out' .. whatever situation.. more social unrest in society ends with a death because the citizens have guns...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Also I get a feeling that no matter how many school shootings happen, or public mass killings happen...or whether the 12,000 murders a year due to gun crime figure rises...

I can imagine, no gun supporter will care... it's irrelevant to their interest in guns which is protected by a 300 year old document.. written by someone who I'm if sure, if existed today, wouldn't permit citizens to own guns.. because they cause more harm than good.


----------



## blues_n_cues

crimes are crimes period,no matter the weapon. 
I think efforts would be better spent worrying about drunk drivers,teen pregnancy rates,upper level education,& cancer...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blues_n_cues said:


> crimes are crimes period,no matter the weapon.
> I think efforts would be better spent worrying about drunk drivers,teen pregnancy rates,upper level education,& cancer...



Haha....


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Also I get a feeling that no matter how many school shootings happen, or public mass killings happen...or whether the 12,000 murders a year due to gun crime figure rises...
> 
> I can imagine, no gun supporter will care... it's irrelevant to their interest in guns which is protected by a 300 year old document.. written by someone who I'm if sure, if existed today, wouldn't permit citizens to own guns.. because they cause more harm than good.



Yet no one attacks those who kill in the form of abortion. What about those children? How many unborn are killed every year? 

The last paragraph is only speculation on your part. You say the founders if had a choice today would not support that right based on events like this school shooting. I think the opposite. I think they would look at this govt and feel the 2nd amendment is still needed. I also think they would not stand by and allow the U.S. govt to act as it has.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Yet no one attacks those who kill in the form of abortion. What about those children? How many unborn are killed every year?
> 
> The last paragraph is only speculation on your part. You say the founders if had a choice today would not support that right based on events like this school shooting. I think the opposite. I think they would look at this govt and feel the 2nd amendment is still needed. I also think they would not stand by and allow the U.S. govt to act as it has.



The abortion debate is over dude. 

All I'm saying is that.. the guns you own, no matter how powerful they are...

*- Have not been used to avert the government harming you 
- Have not been used in terms of the 2cd amendment *

They've been used for all the wrong reason.. murder, murder and more murder.. social conflict... 

And the chances of a militia using their weapons to protect themselves from tyranny is very unlikely in the future. 

The government are more sophisticated now, but the citizens are not.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Yet no one attacks those who kill in the form of abortion. What about those children? How many unborn are killed every year?
> .



It's funny to me how gun nuts are rabid for stockpiling killing machines, yet pretend to grieve over abortions.


----------



## Grunch

And wtf is this moment of silence banner that keeps popping up on my screen?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> It's funny to me how gun nuts are rabid for stockpiling killing machines, yet pretend to grieve over abortions.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> It's funny to me how gun nuts are rabid for stockpiling killing machines, yet pretend to grieve over abortions.



Its a fair question. Those who are against guns are also the same who want to kill babies as a form of birth control. 

In your typical troll fashion you refuse to answer the question. Instead you depend on deflection as your form of debate. 
You only want to talk about the 20 children who could have been saved and not the 10's of thousands who die at the hands of doctors


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Its a fair question. Those who are against guns are also the same who want to kill babies as a form of birth control.
> 
> In your typical troll fashion you refuse to answer the question. Instead you depend on deflection as your form of debate.
> You only want to talk about the 20 children who could have been saved and not the 10's of thousands who die at the hands of doctors



Was there an actual question? I only saw rhetoric and maniacal rambling.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The abortion debate is over dude.
> 
> All I'm saying is that.. the guns you own, no matter how powerful they are...
> 
> *- Have not been used to avert the government harming you
> - Have not been used in terms of the 2cd amendment *
> 
> They've been used for all the wrong reason.. murder, murder and more murder.. social conflict...
> 
> And the chances of a militia using their weapons to protect themselves from tyranny is very unlikely in the future.
> 
> The government are more sophisticated now, but the citizens are not.



If you want to talk about saving children the abortion debate is not over Al Gore.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Was there an actual question? I only saw rhetoric and maniacal rambling.



And you are still a troll


----------



## Grunch

What if abortions were performed by shooting a woman in the stomach with an AK-47? Would that be okay with the pro-gun community?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

The abortion debate is worse than the gun control debate. 

Pro-lifers are a disease.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> And you are still a troll



No, I'm just a guy with a different opinion that's not afraid to go up against the gun squads and cliques. I do it by myself. I don't need a fan club like you guys do.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> What if abortions were performed by shooting a woman in the stomach with an AK-47? Would that be okay with the pro-gun community?



Still using deflection

You refuse to answer my question. If you want to talk about saving children is it right to only talk about those who are shot? By your logic then it must be ok that children are allowed to starve to death too. Just as long as they arent shot.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Still using deflection
> 
> You refuse to answer my question. If you want to talk about saving children is it right to only talk about those who are shot? By your logic then it must be ok that children are allowed to starve to death too. Just as long as they arent shot.



What was the question?!?!?!?!?!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> No, I'm just a guy with a different opinion that's not afraid to go up against the gun squads and cliques. I do it by myself. I don't need a fan club like you guys do.



A difference in opinion is one thing. But as has been pointed out by others and by your own words, your opinion is dripping with hypocrisy. You are consistent in your ideology. Only using what serves your purpose.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> What was the question?!?!?!?!?!



What about the children? Its a noble quest to save all the children. But you only want to save the ones who are shot. Not all the children.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The abortion debate is worse than the gun control debate.
> 
> Pro-lifers are a disease.



FS, in this case isnt your stand against guns for the sake of childrens safety a pro-life stance?

Now before you go any further, I think its the womans right to choose. As a man, I get very little say (if any) in that choice.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> What about the children? Its a noble quest to save all the children. But you only want to save the ones who are shot. Not all the children.



Oh okay. I get what you're saying, but abortion and murder are two different things to me. Obviously you think differently, and that's fine. My issue with gun nuts isn't about saving children. The age of the victims has no effect on my opinions.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Oh okay. I get what you're saying, but abortion and murder are two different things to me. Obviously you think differently, and that's fine. My issue with gun nuts isn't about saving children. The age of the victims has no effect on my opinions.



Fair enough. Just dont hide behind these 20 children (as you have) to make your point. The taking of a life is murder no matter how it is done are at what age/ stage in life.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> your opinion is dripping with hypocrisy. .


How? I don't oppose guns, I oppose the white-trash redneck mentality that commonly goes along with gun ownership. I oppose small minded people that wrap themselves in the flag and hide behind the consitution. I've openly admitted that I have two guns of my own. They were given to me, and they never get used. It's been suggested that I sell them, and I specifically explained that they have sentimental value to me, so I'm not going to do that. I don't love them because they're guns, I keep them because of the people that gave them to me. I don't hunt, I don't carry, and I'm not a lodmouth gun nut. I'm not proud of them or excited about my right to have them. From that perspective, they mean nothing. They were passed down and I consider them more as heirlooms than anything else. They sit in a closet unseen and untouched and I just claim them as "home protection" like any other knucklehead. I already said that I'd rather beat someone to death with one of them instead of shooting them. That's the truth.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Fair enough. Just dont hide behind these 20 children (as you have) to make your point. The taking of a life is murder no matter how it is done are at what age/ stage in life.



I haven't hidden behind anything. I felt the same way with the batman shootings. I wasn't here to vocalize it. This could have happened at an old folks home and I'd feel the same way. 

I disagree about age/murder. To me, there's a medical cut-off point in which an unborn fetus becomes a viable human being. I'm not a doctor so I don't know when that is. But there is a point in which a baby can be removed from the womb and still survive with care. Anything before that, to me, doesn't count and it's the parent(s) decision.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> How? I don't oppose guns, I oppose the white-trash redneck mentality that commonly goes along with gun ownership. I oppose small minded people that wrap themselves in the flag and hide behind the consitution. I've openly admitted that I have two guns of my own. They were given to me, and they never get used. It's been suggested that I sell them, and I specifically explained that they have sentimental value to me, so I'm not going to do that. I don't love them because they're guns, I keep them because of the people that gave them to me. I don't hunt, I don't carry, and I'm not a lodmouth gun nut. I'm not proud of them or excited about my right to have them. From that perspective, they mean nothing. They were passed down and I consider them more as heirlooms than anything else. They sit in a closet unseen and untouched and I just claim them as "home protection" like any other knucklehead. I already said that I'd rather beat someone to death with one of them instead of shooting them. That's the truth.



And I oppose those who think all gun owners are white trash rednecks. I believe in my rights. All of them. And I will not apologize for that. I own 2 guns. Both are currently kept in the night stands unloaded. Of course that wasnt the case when my kids were young. I dont carry outside but thats just a personal choice. One I am allowed to decide for myself. 

I also believe it is your right not to own a gun. Any argument to take away my rights are as foolish as any argument to make sure you abide by yours.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> And I oppose those who think all gun owners are white trash rednecks. I believe in my rights. All of them. And I will not apologize for that. I own 2 guns. Both are currently kept in the night stands unloaded. Of course that wasnt the case when my kids were young. I dont carry outside but thats just a personal choice. One I am allowed to decide for myself.
> 
> I also believe it is your right not to own a gun. Any argument to take away my rights are as foolish as any argument to make sure you abide by yours.



Ok cool. So wer'e pretty much polar opposites of eachother. Are we gonna keep throwing shit at eachother, or just accept it and move on?

Or we can find common ground. I have a Gibson and a Marshall.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> FS, in this case isnt your stand against guns for the sake of childrens safety a pro-life stance?
> 
> Now before you go any further, I think its the womans right to choose. As a man, I get very little say (if any) in that choice.



No it has nothing to do with abortion, guns killing children. 

I agree with your second statement.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> I haven't hidden behind anything. I felt the same way with the batman shootings. I wasn't here to vocalize it. This could have happened at an old folks home and I'd feel the same way.
> 
> I disagree about age/murder. To me, there's a medical cut-off point in which an unborn fetus becomes a viable human being. I'm not a doctor so I don't know when that is. But there is a point in which a baby can be removed from the womb and still survive with care. Anything before that, to me, doesn't count and it's the parent(s) decision.



Well babies just do not appear out of thin air though the Star Trek Transporters, they have to be protected inside the mothers womb until their bodies are strong enough to live outside. We all have gone through this.

You yourself were once one day old Grunch. You were also once six weeks old. How out of one million sperms you swam the fastest to the egg is one of the great mysteries. 

It took you about 36 weeks for you to be strong enough to live without the help your your dear mother. Think of it as apprenticeship. There you are training to become a human that can live on its own, after 36 weeks of strength and nutrition training your Mother gives your your Journeyman's card to allow you to go on the job. Would have sucked when you were trying to develop all your organs and body strong enough to survive the trip through your mother if the hamburger grinder came in to your classroom and chopped you all up. What a way to die huh?

See Grunch I would argue people like me who are very pro gun have more respect for life then you will ever have. The narrative that life begins when your head comes out is simply a lie. If a human could be instantly formed outside of a woman then this would be true.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Ok cool. So wer'e pretty much polar opposites of eachother. Are we gonna keep throwing shit at eachother, or just accept it and move on?
> 
> Or we can find common ground. I have a Gibson and a Marshall.



Im done throwing shit as long as I am not attacked or my belief system is not attacked.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Well babies just do not appear out of thin air though the Star Trek Transporters, they have to be protected inside the mothers womb until their bodies are strong enough to live outside. We all have gone through this.
> 
> You yourself were once one day old Grunch. You were also once six weeks old. How out of one million sperms you swam the fastest to the egg is one of the great mysteries.
> 
> It took you about 36 weeks for you to be strong enough to live without the help your your dear mother. Think of it as apprenticeship. There you are training to become a human that can live on its own, after 36 weeks of strength and nutrition training your Mother gives your your Journeyman's card to allow you to go on the job. Would have sucked when you were trying to develop all your organs and boddy strong enough to survive the trip through your mother if the hamburger grinder came in to your classroom and chopped you all up. What a way to die huh?
> 
> See Grunch I would argue people like me who are very pro gun have more respect for life then you will ever have. The narritive that life begins when your head comes out is simply a lie. If a human could be instantly formed outside of a woman then this would be true.





Now that was funny. Well done.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> No it has nothing to do with abortion, guns killing children.
> 
> I agree with your second statement.



But your wanting to protect kids from shooting such as this is pro-life. Its also antigun but very much pro-life. You can view it any way that allows you to sleep at night. You say pro-life is a disease but your stance is pro-life. Like it or not, I am right.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Im done throwing shit as long as I am not attacked or my belief system is not attacked.



Have I attacked you personally? You all blend together to me so I'm not sure if I said anything to you specifically.

"Belief system" is a pretty broad term. There's a good chance that I'm probably going to inadvertently offend you in some way being as we're complete opposites. You don't change or hide your beliefs for anyone else's benefit, so I shouldn't be expected to do the same.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Have I attacked you personally? You all blend together to me so I'm not sure if I said anything to you specifically.
> 
> "Belief system" is a pretty broad term. There's a good chance that I'm probably going to inadvertently offend you in some way being as we're complete opposites. You don't change or hide your beliefs for anyone else's benefit, so I shouldn't be expected to do the same.



In this case, my belief system is that these are my rights. When someone starts talking about taking away my rights there is a problem. I will never argue taking away anyones rights. No matter how much I may disagree with them. Mine is a total libertarian view. Which is a real tolerance. And not the kind of "tolerance" which the left claims to champion. Theirs is a false tolerance.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> In this case, my belief system is that these are my rights. When someone starts talking about taking away my rights there is a problem. I will never argue taking away anyones rights. No matter how much I may disagree with them. Mine is a total libertarian view. Which is a real tolerance. And not the kind of "tolerance" which the left claims to champion. Theirs is a false tolerance.



I get ya. No worries. You want to adhere to the letter of the constitution, no matter how out of touch or out of date it actually is. That's cool. Most people want to move forward. Make progress. Advance. You want to live like it's 1787. Every man for himself. I get it.


----------



## Alt Freak

So since you want to get rid of guns should we go ahead and get rid of free speech and bring back slavery? I mean this is 2012 about to be 2013. We can't live like this anymore. It's a different time and I should not be allowed to say whatever is on my mind! I should have a person that I own and beat and have them do my bidding 24/7!


----------



## Alt Freak

We need to advance! Obviously if it was made a long time ago in a different time, then it surely must be out of date! C'mon guys!


----------



## Grunch

It's easy to paint with broad strokes. I'm talking about one amendment. And not getting rid of it. All joking aside, I'm talking about putting aside raw emotion and taking a thoughtful look at things for the good of everyone - not just one side of the debate. Maybe nothing needs to be done. Maybe there's nothing that can be done. Or maybe there is something small we can do that can keep the gun loonies happy and still have a positive effect towards fixing the epidemic that is violent gun crime in this "civilized" country. Am I off-base here? Instead of digging in and becoming even more rabid and paranoid, maybe the gun whackos and the gun opposition can find some common ground for the good of society. Maybe we're too far gone. Maybe we just need another civil war.


----------



## CaptainZero

Grunch said:


> It's easy to paint with broad strokes. I'm talking about one amendment. And not getting rid of it. All joking aside, I'm talking about putting aside raw emotion and taking a thoughtful look at things for the good of everyone - not just one side of the debate. Maybe nothing needs to be done. Maybe there's nothing that can be done. Or maybe there is something small we can do that can keep the gun loonies happy and still have a positive effect towards fixing the epidemic that is violent gun crime in this "civilized" country. Am I off-base here? Instead of digging in and becoming even more rabid and paranoid, *maybe the gun whackos and the gun opposition* can find some common ground for the good of society. Maybe we're too far gone. Maybe we just need another civil war.



Getting rid of the second amendment (even if you think it's outdated) will not stop gun violence. Laws without enforcement won't work. And maybe when you're trying to be serious (if you really are), you shouldn't use terms like 'wackos'.


----------



## Grunch

CaptainZero said:


> Getting rid of the second amendment (even if you think it's outdated) will not stop gun violence. Laws without enforcement won't work. And maybe when you're trying to be serious (if you really are), you shouldn't use terms like 'wackos'.



I'm not talking about getting rid of anything. I'm talking about change. Modification. Taking a thoughtful approach to progress that can work for everyone. Including the whackos.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> But your wanting to protect kids from shooting such as this is pro-life. Its also antigun but very much pro-life. You can view it any way that allows you to sleep at night. You say pro-life is a disease but your stance is pro-life. Like it or not, I am right.



No I mean pro-life in the sense that people stand against abortion. 
They are pro-lifers...

There's no such thing as pro-life towards people that are alive lol... 

You're not right about anything dude.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

The way I see it is that America is still a wild west ...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Living in the past...


----------



## Grunch

These colors don't run!


----------



## Australian

OMFG! The Mayans were right. 

This thread is an abortion.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> This thread is an abortion.



How dare you you!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

If I lived in the US, I'd definitely own something like this... 

Feel like an absolute badass! I'd feel like, "No one can fuck with me now world!" 

Nah but in all seriousness, if I was American .. I'd definitely have a few guns.


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> How dare you you!




All youre doing is causing a rift between America and other countries.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Smith & Wesson - Impact Guns

just browsing, there's some sweet stuff on this site. 

Surprised at how relatively cheap everything is. Guitar FX pedals and Gibson's ... no more dear really.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> All youre doing is causing a rift between America and other countries.



Grunch - the root cause of global tension.


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> Grunch - the root cause of global tension.




Well you and FS have managed to turn this Music Forum into a Firearm Forum overnight.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> No I mean pro-life in the sense that people stand against abortion.
> They are pro-lifers...
> 
> There's no such thing as pro-life towards people that are alive lol...
> 
> You're not right about anything dude.



I am right. You have decide to apply the term pro life to only mean against abortion. When in fact the term pro life can be applied to your stance in protecting children. Rightfully so. And not by a stretch either. You only use the term to fit your small portion of the argument and you ideology. 
Certainly a persom of your intelligence can admit to that?


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> Well you and FS have managed to turn this Music Forum into a Firearm Forum overnight.



Um, we're not the only ones talking about it. We're just the only ones that are good at it.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> No, I'm just a guy with a different opinion that's not afraid to go up against the gun squads and cliques. I do it by myself. I don't need a fan club like you guys do.



Australian and a few other guys (I suspect Adwex being one) are anti gun and not afraid to state their opinions. Pretty much every issue has its share of stalwarts in favor against the those against with the middle making the rest. 

You are no breath of fresh air with some opposing view. That existed during your latest absence and will return during your next. It is one thing to actually have a different opinion and advocate your position... Is an entirely different and worthless position to simply find or calculate a viewpoint, conveniently "adopt" that viewpoint and "advocate" that viewpoint with NOTHING other than personal attacks and sarcastic insults. 

It is easy to be a "contradictarian" for the sake of being an asshole. There is no Socratic merit or anything special in the person who does this.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I am right. You have decide to apply the term pro life to only mean against abortion. When in fact the term pro life can be applied to your stance in protecting children. Rightfully so. And not by a stretch either. You only use the term to fit your small portion of the argument and you ideology.
> Certainly a persom of your intelligence can admit to that?



Dude, with all respect I don't know what the fuck this is all about lol. 

I have no argument for you in any shape or form, as I don't know what it is we're disagreeing/agreeing over? 

I don't even think abortion has any place in this thread. Like I said anyway, the abortion debate is over for me, so I don't entertain the argument.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Australian and a few other guys (I suspect Adwex being one) are anti gun and not afraid to state their opinions. Pretty much every issue has its share of stalwarts in favor against the those against with the middle making the rest.
> 
> You are no breath of fresh air with some opposing view. That existed during your latest absence and will return during your next. It is one thing to actually have a different opinion and advocate your position... Is an entirely different and worthless position to simply find or calculate a viewpoint, conveniently "adopt" that viewpoint and "advocate" that viewpoint with NOTHING other than personal attacks and sarcastic insults.
> 
> It is easy to be a "contradictarian" for the sake of being an asshole. There is no Socratic merit or anything special in the person who does this.



Nor is there anything special in the person that writes books on a forum trying to psychoanalyze an opposing viewpoint instead of making valid points of their own..


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Well you and FS have managed to turn this Music Forum into a Firearm Forum overnight.



Hey I'm just interested in guns to be honest and the US. 
I don't think guns are a healthy thing for society, but I understand why America has them and why they want to keep them, and me being a hypocrite, if I lived out there I'd probably support the 2cd amendment and have a few rifles and pistols of my own. 

I still view countries though with regard to philosophy, evidence, statistics, psychology and views and notions from intellectuals - so although guns statistically harbor more homicides in the US than any other reason - Like Americans, I could probably brush all that negativity aside, because 'for my own sake' - owning a gun would be cool... protection, paying homage to my forefathers, paying homage to building of the US etc. I'd embezzle myself in the culture of it. I would feel more American out there if I owned a gun. 

Just like if I moved to India, I'd probably eat curry everyday.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Nor is there anything special in the person that writes books on a forum trying to psychoanalyze an opposing viewpoint instead of making valid points of their own..



Agreed. That is where the mod process comes in and drops you like a bad habit about 14 pages back (long before the babbling psychoanalysis). The mods have seen fit to relax that standard (something you have continued to exploit) so I have taken the time (fruitlessly, no doubt) to explain to others why your activity is not worth their anger, and alternately, why your "I'm just the breath of fresh air around here" bullshit doesn't wash.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hey I'm just interested in guns to be honest and the US.
> I don't think guns are a healthy thing for society, but I understand why America has them and why they want to keep them, and me being a hypocrite, if I lived out there I'd probably support the 2cd amendment and have a few rifles and pistols of my own.
> 
> I still view countries though with regard to philosophy, evidence, statistics, psychology and views and notions from intellectuals - so although guns statistically harbor more homicides in the US than any other reason - Like Americans, I could probably brush all that negativity aside, because 'for my own sake' - owning a gun would be cool... protection, paying homage to my forefathers, paying homage to building of the US etc. I'd embezzle myself in the culture of it. I would feel more American out there if I owned a gun.
> 
> Just like if I moved to India, I'd probably eat curry everyday.





Exactly! Well I dont see the big deal if they own 2 or 2000 guns each. They can only shoot one or two at a time anyway.

What if they melt down all the US citizens' guns and then China or Korea swoops in? 

You know history well enough to know that every once in a while an 'Emperor' comes along and wants to expand his empire.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Agreed. That is where the mod process comes in and drops you like a bad habit about 14 pages back (long before the babbling psychoanalysis). The mods have seen fit to relax that standard (something you have continued to exploit) so I have taken the time (fruitlessly, no doubt) to explain to others why your activity is not worth their anger, and alternately, why your "I'm just the breath of fresh air around here" bullshit doesn't wash.



How is it that you tough gun guys are so easily upset by words? You scream "freedom" and then in the next sentence want to squash out anyone that disagrees with you. That's hilarious. You want me banned, for what? Disagreeing with you and being vocal about it? You don't like my delivery, so instead of ignoring it you just want me banned? How childish and insecure are you?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Exactly! Well I dont see the big deal if they own 2 or 2000 guns each. They can only shoot one or two at a time anyway.
> 
> What if they melt down all the US citizens' guns and then China or Korea swoops in?
> 
> You know history well enough to know that every once in a while an 'Emperor' comes along and wants to expand his empire.



That's still being fairly paranoid. It's being worried about your government and worried about an invasion? 

Fair enough - if that's how you rationalize it. 

EDIT: haha I see, you were being sarcastic! 
and matt liked it! haha excellence.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's still being fairly paranoid. It's being worried about your government and worried about an invasion?
> 
> Fair enough - if that's how you rationalize it.
> 
> EDIT: haha I see, you were being sarcastic!
> and matt liked it! haha excellence.




Well look at it like this.

What is better : a Police State or the current set up. A Police State is the worst situation that a country can have.

I'll bet you anything that if citizens are unarmed that a Police State will ensue.
Think about the gun ratio in that respect.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> How is it that you tough gun guys are so easily upset by words? You scream "freedom" and then in the next sentence want to squash out anyone that disagrees with you. That's hilarious. You want me banned, for what? Disagreeing with you and being vocal about it? You don't like my delivery, so instead of ignoring it you just want me banned? How childish and insecure are you?



With those in other countries passing judgment I am "upset" because many insist on debating with 3 points about what works in their country, and how they feel with little concept of our governmental process, history ad other relevant factors. More importantly, there is a universal view that America is the big mouth "know-it-all" bully on the world stage, so the hypocrisy of others telling me/us what is best for my/our country is particularly incensing.

Regarding those here in the US, I am upset because few people on the opposite put forth a cogent logical viewpoint. They have strong beliefs. But the evidence behind their claims is absent. I have a very big problem ceding one of our most important rights to the government because some people are scared and they want to extinguish a right (directly or by 1000 cuts) on the speculation it "might help" (when in certain cases, evidence contradicts the assertions )

Lastly, I am not upset with YOU, but I am tired of your Beavis and Butthead drone about how many insults and smart ass comments you can throw out for the sake of trolling. There is no worthwhile discussion to be had, it is a waste of time attempting to put forth a point, only to receive a "heh heh cool...NASCAR abortions" assholism, and the only response left is to flail out in some barrage of angry insults, which is exactly what you are here to incite.


----------



## Mike_j

V-man said:


> Australian and a few other guys (I suspect Adwex being one) are anti gun and not afraid to state their opinions.



You can count me in on that. Not sure why you would think anyone with anti gun sentiments would be afraid to say so or did I read this wrong? I love guns but for me, there too many dead kids and too many idiot gun owners out there now.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> Well look at it like this.
> 
> What is better : a Police State or the current set up. A Police State is the worst situation that a country can have.
> 
> I'll bet you anything that if citizens are unarmed that a Police State will ensue.
> Think about the gun ratio in that respect.



If the gun people have their way, this will be a police state, and they will be the police. It's no secret that gun people typically, not all of them, but probably most of them, line up with ultra conservative viewpoints. Those same viewpoints are shared with crazy fucks like the KKK and the WBC and pretty much any other hate group.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Well look at it like this.
> 
> What is better : a Police State or the current set up. A Police State is the worst situation that a country can have.
> 
> I'll bet you anything that if citizens are unarmed that a Police State will ensue.
> Think about the gun ratio in that respect.



Dude we both live in police states, so does the US... CCTV surveillance, banks running the economy.. our country's waging illegal wars in the middle east... we're all under the illusion of terrorism.. being sacred of everything.. all passive consumers.. 

You believe you're an individual that owns property and has rights and freedom of speech? - if you believe in AUS or the US or the UK has that... I suggest doing some research... we're all owned like cattle..


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> With those in other countries passing judgment I am "upset" because many insist on debating with 3 points about what works in their country, and how they feel with little concept of our governmental process, history ad other relevant factors. More importantly, there is a universal view that America is the big mouth "know-it-all" bully on the world stage, so the hypocrisy of others telling me/us what is best for my/our country is particularly incensing.
> 
> Regarding those here in the US, I am upset because few people on the opposite put forth a cogent logical viewpoint. They have strong beliefs. But the evidence behind their claims is absent. I have a very big problem ceding one of our most important rights to the government because some people are scared and they want to extinguish a right (directly or by 1000 cuts) on the speculation it "might help" (when in certain cases, evidence contradicts the assertions )
> 
> Lastly, I am not upset with YOU, but I am tired of your Beavis and Butthead drone about how many insults and smart ass comments you can throw out for the sake of trolling. There is no worthwhile discussion to be had, it is a waste of time attempting to put forth a point, only to receive a "heh heh cool...NASCAR abortions" assholism, and the only response left is to flail out in some barrage of angry insults, which is exactly what you are here to incite.



So it's exactly as I said. Your blind patriotism and fragile emotional status makes you incapable of considering an opposing viewpoint, so you just dismiss it as trolling or attacks and cry to have your perceived attacker(s) banned so they can't upset you anymore. Got it.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude we both live in police states, so does the US... CCTV surveillance, banks running the economy.. our country's waging illegal wars in the middle east... we're all under the illusion of terrorism.. being sacred of everything.. all passive consumers..
> 
> You believe you're an individual that owns property and has rights and freedom of speech? - if you believe in AUS or the US or the UK has that... I suggest doing some research... we're all owned like cattle..




The government is a piece of shit ...so? It always has been and always will be.

You just get on with it and do your thing as much as you can. But in a Police State, all rights are null and void.


Its alright for you. England is set up so that is the last man standing. Thats just the way it is.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> The government is a piece of shit ...so? It always has been and always will be.
> 
> You just get on with it and do your thing as much as you can. But in a Police State, all rights are null and void.
> 
> 
> Its alright for you. England is set up so that is the last man standing. Thats just the way it is.




Letting citizens own guns will not avert the outcome of a police state. 
It just spills more blood in the process. 

Do you know how much Saudi Arabia owns of America?


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Letting citizens own guns will not avert the outcome of a police state.
> It just spills more blood in the process.
> 
> Do you know how much Saudi Arabia owns of America?





Probably as much as China owns of Australia


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Probably as much as China owns of Australia



 

and the UK - some massive development parks in London are all Chinese. 

Gotta laugh at it really don't we.... just enjoy the irony of it all.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Letting citizens own guns will not avert the outcome of a police state.
> It just spills more blood in the process.


It's kind of odd to me that certain people actually think that armed citizens could stop the actual government if the gov actually wanted to take over. 

Think about it, hypothetically speaking: the US government decides to use it's military might on it's own citizens. One rusty ol A-10 Warthog can wipe out an entire community. A few tanks rolling through the suburbs can lay waste to structures and supplies. A squad of F-16's can take down an entire metropolis. Ships off the coast tomahawk NYC, LA, Houston, New Orleans, Seattle, Miami, and any other coastal city. What's bubba gonna do with his .22? Oh yeah, they're gonna build fertilizer bombs and drive them around in U-Hauls. Good plan!


----------



## scat7s

Grunch said:


> It's kind of odd to me that certain people actually think that armed citizens could stop the actual government if the gov actually wanted to take over.
> 
> Think about it, hypothetically speaking: the US government decides to use it's military might on it's own citizens. One rusty ol A-10 Warthog can wipe out an entire community. A few tanks rolling through the suburbs can lay waste to structures and supplies. A squad of F-16's can take down an entire metropolis. Ships off the coast tomahawk NYC, LA, Houston, New Orleans, Seattle, Miami, and any other coastal city. What's bubba gonna do with his .22? Oh yeah, they're gonna build fertilizer bombs and drive them around in U-Hauls. Good plan!



so by that logic, its wiser to just roll over? come out with your hands up? and throw yourself on the mercy of the aggressor?

i wonder...did polish jews have personal firearms? genuine question, i dont know...

secondly, perhaps you missed the paragraph about deterrence theory. its universal. works with govts or individuals.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

scat7s said:


> so by that logic, its wiser to just roll over? come out with your hands up? and throw yourself on the mercy of the aggressor?
> 
> i wonder...did polish jews have personal firearms? genuine question, i dont know...
> 
> secondly, perhaps you missed the paragraph about deterrence theory. its universal. works with govts or individuals.



Those that did fight back or those that wanted to fight back got them regardless:

Bielski partisans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The words of Odin are also true for Jewish resistance in the war:
"I know one thing that never dies. The glory of the dead."


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Grunch

scat7s said:


> so by that logic, its wiser to just roll over? come out with your hands up? and throw yourself on the mercy of the aggressor?


I didn't say anything of the sort. Some may think it's noble to die a martyr. The bottom line is you will lose either way.



> secondly, perhaps you missed the paragraph about deterrence theory. its universal. works with govts or individuals.



I don't believe it. There's no way I believe that our government lives in fear of it's population. Especially _this_ population. We're a nation of reality TV watchers and starbucks sippers that doesn't care about anything outside our own front doors. This would be the easiest overtaking ever if they decided to do it. Bubba Joe with his 12 gauge can't defend millions of disinterested robots.


----------



## scat7s

> Grunch said:
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say anything of the sort. Some may think it's noble to die a martyr. The bottom line is you will lose either way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> probably. but 'losing' is beside the point if it gets to that level. its about losing on your terms at that point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't believe it. There's no way I believe that our government lives in fear of it's population. Especially _this_ population. We're a nation of reality TV watchers and starbucks sippers that doesn't care about anything outside our own front doors. This would be the easiest overtaking ever if they decided to do it. Bubba Joe with his 12 gauge can't defend millions of disinterested robots.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

i believe thats correct, the govt does not fear its people. but, in a proper balance of power it does. 

we are out of balance.


----------



## Grunch

Lol at this nonsense...

NRA calls for armed police officer in every school - Yahoo! News

The NRA blames music, movies, and culture. Lol! You get your guns, but they're going to eventually want to take away your guitars, amps, and control what you want to watch. God bless america! Freedom!


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> So it's exactly as I said. Your blind patriotism and fragile emotional status makes you incapable of considering an opposing viewpoint, so you just dismiss it as trolling or attacks and cry to have your perceived attacker(s) banned so they can't upset you anymore. Got it.



That I am not ashamed of where I live or that I admire the thought behind our creation = blind patriotism.  

That I receive certain viewpoints that directly affect me with annoyance or aggravation = fragile emotional state. 

And you can spare the martyrdom. While you were "on your latest" ban, people far less annoying were banned for less than what you do.

- you advance no discussion, but instead figure out how to cast insulting labels and sarcastic quips in lieu of any discussion

- you have been banned here multiple times and persist on returning with the same antics

- you were banned (last time) for multiple accounts which you tried to explain away as badly as your "I'm not a troll" argument.

- you will be banned again and no doubt start another troll account


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> - you advance no discussion,


What page are we on?



> - you have been banned here multiple times and persist on returning with the same antics


If you believe the mods, it wasn't "antics" that got me banned.



> - you were banned (last time) for multiple accounts which you tried to explain away as badly as your "I'm not a troll" argument.


So you do know why I was banned, but choose to make shit up instead. Par for the course....of course.



> - you will be banned again and no doubt start another troll account


Banned again? Probably. The mods say they don't pander to the masses, but we'll see. I'm hopeful that they can see that internet debates are a two way street. Start another account? No. If I get banned, you'll be safe from the mean ol grunch and you'll be able to browbeat your foes into submission again without any pushback. Just the way the insecure like it to be.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude we both live in police states, so does the US... CCTV surveillance, banks running the economy.. our country's waging illegal wars in the middle east... we're all under the illusion of terrorism.. being sacred of everything.. all passive consumers..
> 
> You believe you're an individual that owns property and has rights and freedom of speech? - if you believe in AUS or the US or the UK has that... I suggest doing some research... we're all owned like cattle..



I wish you would expound on that. I dont feel like i am owned, so i wonder if this is social distinction that makes you feel this way. I choose where my kids go to school, what clinic i go to, what profession I want, what car i buy, what church i go to, what i have for dinner tonight. I have a hard time coming up with things that I'd like to do that the good ole USA has stopped me from doing. In fact the only thing i can come up with is marijuana, and even that is changing. I feel pretty damn free.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> If the gun people have their way, this will be a police state, and they will be the police. It's no secret that gun people typically, not all of them, but probably most of them, line up with ultra conservative viewpoints. Those same viewpoints are shared with crazy fucks like the KKK and the WBC and pretty much any other hate group.




What an idiot.... your mind is so fucked up. You truly cannot begin to grasp at the concept of freedom or inalienable rights, liberty is something you cannot define and are to scared to live. You have no concept of private property rights, you probably think its real estate. Then you associate conservatism with the KKK and WBC.....your mind is not capable of understanding conservatism because you are to easily fooled. 

I am now convinced more then ever you are simply stupid. But in the Christmas spirit I would encourage you to study American History along with the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. I truly don't want to see continue to make an ass of yourself.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> What an idiot.... your mind is so fucked up. You truly cannot begin to grasp at the concept of freedom or inalienable rights, liberty is something you cannot define and are to scared to live. You have no concept of private property rights, you probably think its real estate. Then you associate conservatism with the KKK and WBC.....your mind is not capable of understanding conservatism because you are to easily fooled.
> 
> I am now convinced more then ever you are simply stupid. But in the Christmas spirit I would encourage you to study American History along with the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. I truly don't want to see continue to make an ass of yourself.



Yup, these are the sensible, rational, open-minded type of people that will run things. Freedom!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> I wish you would expound on that. I dont feel like i am owned, so i wonder if this is social distinction that makes you feel this way. I choose where my kids go to school, what clinic i go to, what profession I want, what car i buy, what church i go to, what i have for dinner tonight. I have a hard time coming up with things that I'd like to do that the good ole USA has stopped me from doing. In fact the only thing i can come up with is marijuana, and even that is changing. I feel pretty damn free.



Try and express yourself in public - 

That's the illusion of choice. 

How many parties can you vote for? how many presidents do you have a choice of each election?


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> How many parties can you vote for? how many presidents do you have a choice of each election?



Actually there are many choices. Realistically, there's only two that can win - and neither choice is a good one. Great system.


----------



## 4STICKS

nuke said:


> What an idiot.... your mind is so fucked up. You truly cannot begin to grasp at the concept of freedom or inalienable rights, liberty is something you cannot define and are to scared to live. You have no concept of private property rights, you probably think its real estate. Then you associate conservatism with the KKK and WBC.....your mind is not capable of understanding conservatism because you are to easily fooled.
> 
> I am now convinced more then ever you are simply stupid. But in the Christmas spirit I would encourage you to study American History along with the Constitution, and Bill of Rights. I truly don't want to see continue to make an ass of yourself.



To educate himself would be counterproductive to his perceived purpose.


----------



## Grunch

4STICKS said:


> To educate himself would be counterproductive to his perceived purpose.



Yeah I'll read the constitution, the bill of rights, and I'll even throw the bible in there. You know any other ancient relics of times long gone that I should add to the list?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Actually there are many choices. Realistically, there's only two that can win - and neither choice is a good one. Great system.



 exactly. 

Politics is an illusion, a pantomime... people think it's real though because they can vote lol. 

Saudi Arabia owns more of America than the American people do. Give em a gun though and they feel apart of the party.


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> exactly.
> 
> Politics is an illusion, a pantomime... people think it's real though because they can vote lol.
> 
> Saudi Arabia owns more of America than the American people do. Give em a gun though and they feel apart of the party.



Don't even get me started on voting. What a sham. And people literally line up for that nonsense.


----------



## 4STICKS

Grunch said:


> Yeah I'll read the constitution, the bill of rights, and I'll even throw the bible in there. You know any other ancient relics of times long gone that I should add to the list?




The Federalist papers would be good.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> Yeah I'll read the constitution, the bill of rights, and I'll even throw the bible in there. You know any other ancient relics of times long gone that I should add to the list?



Definitely!

How about these nice ones from Havamal, ancient and written for you:

22.
An ill tempered, unhappy man
Ridicules all he hears,
Makes fun of others, refusing always
To see the faults in himself.

26.
The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
While he sits by his hearth at home.
Quickly finds when questioned by others.
That he knows nothing at all.

27.
The ignorant booby had best be silent
When he moves among other men,
No one will know what a nit-wit he is
Until he begins to talk;
No one knows less what a nit-wit he is
Than the man who talks too much.


Need more?


Gr,

Gerrit.

Source: http://www.simnet.is/gardarj/havamal.htm


----------



## Grunch

4STICKS said:


> The Federalist papers would be good.



Cool. I'm on it. When I'm done I'll be a rootin-tootin gun toting good 'murrican freedom fighter!


----------



## Username2

4STICKS said:


> The Federalist papers would be good.



He would claim that was all made up shit and it never happened.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Cool. I'm on it. When I'm done I'll be a *rootin-tootin gun toting good 'murrican freedom fighter*!


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> He would claim that was all made up shit and it never happened.



I would claim the ratification of the constitution never happened? What sense does that make? You're really reaching now. Go toke another carton of cigs while your arteries harden and come back with something better.


----------



## Grunch

Blokkadeleider said:


> Definitely!
> 
> How about these nice ones from Havamal, ancient and written for you:
> 
> 22.
> An ill tempered, unhappy man
> Ridicules all he hears,
> Makes fun of others, refusing always
> To see the faults in himself.
> 
> 26.
> The fool who fancies he is full of wisdom
> While he sits by his hearth at home.
> Quickly finds when questioned by others.
> That he knows nothing at all.
> 
> 27.
> The ignorant booby had best be silent
> When he moves among other men,
> No one will know what a nit-wit he is
> Until he begins to talk;
> No one knows less what a nit-wit he is
> Than the man who talks too much.
> 
> 
> Need more?
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.
> 
> Source: Virtually Virtual Iceland - Havamal - The Words of the High



You read all that and don't follow it yourself? shame on you.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> You read all that and don't follow it yourself? shame on you.





Nice try. 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Try and express yourself in public -
> 
> That's the illusion of choice.
> 
> How many parties can you vote for? how many presidents do you have a choice of each election?



Huh? Express myself or expose myself, lol. Dude i take the acoustic out and play in public all the time. Just this week i showed up at a town board hearing to oppose a variance, expressed myself quite vocally. If you have ever been in a band that gigged you express yourself in public all the time. Please, tell me what it is you would like to do in public but can't. Freedom is not an absolute. Maybe i have the same right to not be exposed to the crap you want to be free to do. There is a balance here.

As for voting for who you want... You can write in whoever you want. How many more parties do you want? There is nothing in our system that precludes other parties. We throw up unlikelys all the time...Paul Wellstone, Jessie Ventura, Arnie. We have a black president and a woman at Secretary of State. I hardly think i have no choice. I don't think the party system we have right now is a result of lack of freedom, its the result of reality. There also also varying shades of liberal/conservative republican and democrats to choose from. The problem of lack of choice of president is caused by too much choice, as ironic as that appears. You know damn well you can write in whoever you want, but your vote will be meaningless because that likely will not be what the majority of other people want. This isn't a lack of choice argument. You can choose to play tug of war against ten other people, but the fact that you will likely lose does not mean you had no choice.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> Huh? Express myself or expose myself, lol. Dude i take the acoustic out and play in public all the time. Just this week i showed up at a town board hearing to oppose a variance, expressed myself quite vocally. If you have ever been in a band that gigged you express yourself in public all the time. Please, tell me what it is you would like to do in public but can't. Freedom is not an absolute. Maybe i have the same right to not be exposed to the crap you want to be free to do. There is a balance here.
> 
> As for voting for who you want... You can write in whoever you want. How many more parties do you want? There is nothing in our system that precludes other parties. We throw up unlikelys all the time...Paul Wellstone, Jessie Ventura, Arnie. We have a black president and a woman at Secretary of State. I hardly think i have no choice. I don't think the party system we have right now is a result of lack of freedom, its the result of reality. There also also varying shades of liberal/conservative republican and democrats to choose from. The problem of lack of choice of president is caused by too much choice, as ironic as that appears. You know damn well you can write in whoever you want, but your vote will be meaningless because that likely will not be what the majority of other people want. This isn't a lack of choice argument. You can choose to play tug of war against ten other people, but the fact that you will likely lose does not mean you had no choice.



I sent you a PM to cover all of this, a lesson courtesy of Christopher Hitchens. 

It's about freedom of speech - check it out. 

For all the other stuff, find out who owns your house


----------



## rmlevasseur

You can own any house you can afford! I will read what you sent, but i asked YOU how your controlling government has limited you so much. Maybe think this out for yourself before just deferring to people you assume are smarter.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude, with all respect I don't know what the fuck this is all about lol.
> 
> I have no argument for you in any shape or form, as I don't know what it is we're disagreeing/agreeing over?
> 
> I don't even think abortion has any place in this thread. Like I said anyway, the abortion debate is over for me, so I don't entertain the argument.



I figured you would say something like this. Allow me to clarify.

My statement about abortion wasnt intended to bring abortion into the discussion per se. I wanted to point that those who want to take this horrible event as a chance to take away the 2nd amendment are generally the same people who think its ok to kill unborn as a form of birth control. And I stated my position on abortion. I said isnt your stand against the killing of these kids with guns a form of pro-life. I will get back to my last sentence in a bit.

Your following statement was "pro-lifers are a disease." Thats cool if thats your opinion but it is not a fact. It is your opinion and that opinion is tainted (for better or worse) by your ideology. Your statement indicates you are so disgusted with pro-lifers that you want no part of that association. Even when in this case you are antigun/pro-life/anti-violence. All 3 terms fit. But you are so wrapped in your ideology you refuse to admit that I am correct.

Earlier in this thread you wanted to have an "honest" debate about guns in America and the 10,000 that you claim are killed by them every year. I asked for links that were never provided. I also asked for info on all murders in America. You didnt want to have that discussion. You only wanted to talk about the evil that humans do with guns. I wanted to talk about the evil that humans do. EVIL being the term here that really needs to be addressed. If you remove the guns, evil still remains. Just like your term "pro-life" which you want it to only mean one thing. That one thing being what you decide it is. Political correctness is a means to control the argument/debate. Nothing more. You want to define the terms to fit your argument. 

See, you cant have an honest debate when you do as you have done. You dont want to address the real problem. You want to debate what you consider to be wrong. When I asked you if stricter knife laws were needed or addressing your immigration problem was the answer, you never gave me a direct answer. You just went on about how the queen sold your country out & blah blah blah.
Funny, for some time I really thought you wanted an honest debate. That isnt the case. Your own words prove that. With regards to this event you are anti-gun/pro-life/anti-violence. Still, you say if you lived in America you would own guns. Which is it? Dont answer that. No matter how you explain it away I think its more for your own benefit than mine. 
If you really want to learn about gun laws and how they work research Illinois and who is the party in absolute control there. Look up murder rates with guns. Look into the gun laws. It hasnt worked there and it wont work on a national level. 

There is no point in having an honest debate with you because you cant be honest. When you want to cherry pick the data and live in a box with defined terms such as "pro-life", the discussion is not only pointless its dishonest.
When evil is eradicated from this world I will lay my guns down. But this shooting only proves I need them more than ever.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I figured you would say something like this. Allow me to clarify.
> 
> My statement about abortion wasnt intended to bring abortion into the discussion per se. I wanted to point that those who want to take this horrible event as a chance to take away the 2nd amendment are generally the same people who think its ok to kill unborn as a form of birth control. And I stated my position on abortion. I said isnt your stand against the killing of these kids with guns a form of pro-life. I will get back to my last sentence in a bit.
> 
> Your following statement was "pro-lifers are a disease." Thats cool if thats your opinion but it is not a fact. It is your opinion and that opinion is tainted (for better or worse) by your ideology. Your statement indicates you are so disgusted with pro-lifers that you want no part of that association. Even when in this case you are antigun/pro-life/anti-violence. All 3 terms fit. But you are so wrapped in your ideology you refuse to admit that I am correct.
> 
> Earlier in this thread you wanted to have an "honest" debate about guns in America and the 10,000 that you claim are killed by them every year. I asked for links that were never provided. I also asked for info on all murders in America. You didnt want to have that discussion. You only wanted to talk about the evil that humans do with guns. I wanted to talk about the evil that humans do. EVIL being the term here that really needs to be addressed. If you remove the guns, evil still remains. Just like your term "pro-life" which you want it to only mean one thing. That one thing being what you decide it is. Political correctness is a means to control the argument/debate. Nothing more. You want to define the terms to fit your argument.
> 
> See, you cant have an honest debate when you do as you have done. You dont want to address the real problem. You want to debate what you consider to be wrong. When I asked you if stricter knife laws were needed or addressing your immigration problem was the answer, you never gave me a direct answer. You just went on about how the queen sold your country out & blah blah blah.
> Funny, for some time I really thought you wanted an honest debate. That isnt the case. Your own words prove that. With regards to this event you are anti-gun/pro-life/anti-violence. Still, you say if you lived in America you would own guns. Which is it? Dont answer that. No matter how you explain it away I think its more for your own benefit than mine.
> If you really want to learn about gun laws and how they work research Illinois and who is the party in absolute control there. Look up murder rates with guns. Look into the gun laws. It hasnt worked there and it wont work on a national level.
> 
> There is no point in having an honest debate with you because you cant be honest. When you want to cherry pick the data and live in a box with defined terms such as "pro-life", the discussion is not only pointless its dishonest.
> When evil is eradicated from this world I will lay my guns down. But this shooting only proves I need them more than ever.



Dude what the hell? 
I don't even know what to say about this wall of text. It seems to me like you're trying to prove me wrong when I haven't even laid down my stipulations..

Take a chill pill dude.. I'm not saying you're wrong about anything.. I don't even know what this is all about to be honest. 

I don't care to talk about abortion, and I don't think American can or will ever change its gun laws. 

Stop trying to pick a fight lol.. I have nothing else to say to you - you come at me with this huge amount of text and I don't even know why


----------



## rmlevasseur

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I sent you a PM to cover all of this, a lesson courtesy of Christopher Hitchens.
> 
> It's about freedom of speech - check it out.
> 
> For all the other stuff, find out who owns your house



FWIW i did listen to all of Hitchens. It's quite excellent, and i am confused how you think this is a counter to anything i have said. I agree with him nearly 100%. 

I assume your are tying in free speech and censorship with gun control, and that any censorship is bad. That is the only connection i can make between your post and the topic of this thread. What I am curious about though is what you conclude from Mr. Hitchen's speech. Is it that a person should be able to do or say whatever they want wherever they are, otherwise it is censorship and therefore wrong?

It is my belief, unequivocally, that any belief system should be supported by empirical evidence. I agree that religious based decisions are, for the most part, founded on a very poor thought process. But we are talking gun control here, and the evidence that the harm of possessing them is outweighing the right to possess them has appeared to tip the scales.

Society is a compromise. It's a balance and always has been. If you don't feel the balance has tipped in favor of gun control, then i can respect that. But if you can't appreciate that society demands compromises are required then that is a real problem. I also cant think of a country where these rights are protected more than the USA.

So i will repeat my question, what is it you want to do and can't?


----------



## Alt Freak

rmlevasseur said:


> Maybe think this out for yourself before just deferring to people you assume are smarter.


Holy shit this is brilliant


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> 2) As an American I must do my part to insure my children, your children and generations of children to come grow up with the freedom & liberties guaranteed to them by the founding documents.





Grunch said:


> be a rootin-tootin gun toting good 'murrican freedom fighter!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> FWIW i did listen to all of Hitchens. It's quite excellent, and i am confused how you think this is a counter to anything i have said. I agree with him nearly 100%.



 I'm confused too, I'm not counter to anything you've said! 

I'm not arguing with you about anything lol....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> FWIW i did listen to all of Hitchens. It's quite excellent, and i am confused how you think this is a counter to anything i have said. I agree with him nearly 100%.
> 
> I assume your are tying in free speech and censorship with gun control, and that any censorship is bad. That is the only connection i can make between your post and the topic of this thread. What I am curious about though is what you conclude from Mr. Hitchen's speech. Is it that a person should be able to do or say whatever they want wherever they are, otherwise it is censorship and therefore wrong?
> 
> It is my belief, unequivocally, that any belief system should be supported by empirical evidence. I agree that religious based decisions are, for the most part, founded on a very poor thought process. But we are talking gun control here, and the evidence that the harm of possessing them is outweighing the right to possess them has appeared to tip the scales.
> 
> Society is a compromise. It's a balance and always has been. If you don't feel the balance has tipped in favor of gun control, then i can respect that. But if you can't appreciate that society demands compromises are required then that is a real problem. I also cant think of a country where these rights are protected more than the USA.
> 
> So i will repeat my question, what is it you want to do and can't?



Dude, you've just fabricated an argument that is totally made up! 

Why have you done that?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> You can own any house you can afford! I will read what you sent, but i asked YOU how your controlling government has limited you so much. Maybe think this out for yourself before just deferring to people you assume are smarter.



 

You're really funny.. and you know what? - I don't even know what your point is lol. 

I was just averring some questions about how free we think we are.. and you get all offensive, aggressive and very argumentative about it.. 

Chill out for fuck sake, it's not that serious.


----------



## brp

C-c-combo breaker!


----------



## Alt Freak

brp said:


> C-c-combo breaker!


I think he's done. He's back peddling like crazy


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Alt Freak said:


> I think he's done. He's back peddling like crazy



Are you referring to me? back peddling from what?


----------



## scat7s

> So i will repeat my question, what is it you want to do and can't?



we are free to do many things, so long as you are willing and able to pay for it. $$$

the irony is, in a free society, NOTHING is free...


----------



## brp

scat7s said:


> we are free to do many things, so long as you are willing and able to pay for it. $$$
> 
> the irony is, in a free society, NOTHING is free...



As it should be IMO.
Cuz freedom without the DO is just freem.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> we are free to do many things, so long as you are willing and able to pay for it. $$$
> 
> the irony is, in a free society, NOTHING is free...



All I did was suggest that we're not necessarily as free as we think we are, and nudged at home ownership and who owns the land in countries etc. 

and the dude replied with a load of cobblers .. which seemed like a insult that was aimed at me for even mentioning such a thing! he took it personally. 

Bless his little cotton socks! I've never disagreed with him over anything and think he makes valid and reliable rationale posts.. not sure quite what to say to him.


----------



## rmlevasseur

Super i am not mad at all. I thought my posts were pretty free from emotion and based on logic. I was simply trying to explore your comment that we are not as free as we think we are. I hear that battle cry all the time from people who wish they had more but aren't willing to work for it. I didnt mean to imply that you are one of those people, and i was legitimately trying to understand who and why people feel so tethered. When you posted Hitchens i took it as your explanation to my question, and finding no explanation there wondered what is was you wanted me to take from him, especially in the context of gun control.


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Because unlike you I am not about to disparage an entire nation over one topic. With you it's not about dialogue, I could be here all day correcting your baseless assumptions when really all you have is a chip on your shoulder.
> 
> Go away, go and try to impart your huge ego on someone else.


 
Dude, i lived in your country and you have a wonderful place full of great things and people. But why is it your government doesnt really want you to have firearms? You still have crime right? Do your police carry weapons? Why should they? It should be much safer with less guns, right? You ever wonder what happenes when China decides they want your countrys uranium ore?

The US outnumbers Austrailia by a ratio of about 20 to 1. Just the sheer population difference dictates that all death rates to be higher. When you talk about US firearm deaths are you inferring to accidents, suicides, homicides? Then were they people killed by cops, robbers, gang altercations, family members, ect. 

Its too broad to lump into one category. Until someone proves either scientifically or statistically that a full gun ban would stop ALL VIOLENT CRIME by pointing to actual incidences, i am not going for it. Every major gun confiscation in the last 100 years resulted in genocide. Prove me wrong.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> All I did was suggest that we're not necessarily as free as we think we are, and nudged at home ownership and who owns the land in countries etc.
> 
> and the dude replied with a load of cobblers .. which seemed like a insult that was aimed at me for even mentioning such a thing! he took it personally.
> 
> Bless his little cotton socks! I've never disagreed with him over anything and think he makes valid and reliable rationale posts.. not sure quite what to say to him.


 
Not to change the subject but do you ever sleep?


----------



## rmlevasseur

anitoli said:


> Dude, i lived in your country and you have a wonderful place full of great things and people. But why is it your government doesnt really want you to have firearms? You still have crime right? Do your police carry weapons? Why should they? It should be much safer with less guns, right? You ever wonder what happenes when China decides they want your countrys uranium ore?
> 
> The US outnumbers Austrailia by a ratio of about 20 to 1. Just the sheer population difference dictates that all death rates to be higher. When you talk about US firearm deaths are you inferring to accidents, suicides, homicides? Then were they people killed by cops, robbers, gang altercations, family members, ect.
> 
> Its too broad to lump into one category. Until someone proves either scientifically or statistically that a full gun ban would stop ALL VIOLENT CRIME by pointing to actual incidences, i am not going for it. Every major gun confiscation in the last 100 years resulted in genocide. Prove me wrong.



Why does it have to stop all violent crime? Can't it just reduce it and be worthwhile? I kinda look at it the other way, i need more proof that people actually need guns to defend themselves. Certainly there is some evidence here and there, but i am not sure the benefit is outweighing the harm.


----------



## scat7s

brp said:


> As it should be IMO.
> Cuz freedom without the DO is just freem.



im not speaking in the context of handouts. things that used to be free, are no longer so. things that people "do"


----------



## anitoli

rmlevasseur said:


> Why does it have to stop all violent crime? Can't it just reduce it and be worthwhile? I kinda look at it the other way, i need more proof that people actually need guns to defend themselves. Certainly there is some evidence here and there, but i am not sure the benefit is outweighing the harm.


 
Would you be willing to read something? 

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636]More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws (Studies in Law and Economics): John R. Lott Jr.: 9780226493633: Amazon.com: Books[/ame]

This book altered my opinion on gun control from pro to con.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rmlevasseur said:


> Super i am not mad at all. I thought my posts were pretty free from emotion and based on logic. I was simply trying to explore your comment that we are not as free as we think we are. *I hear that battle cry all the time from people who wish they had more but aren't willing to work for it. * I didnt mean to imply that you are one of those people, and i was legitimately trying to understand who and why people feel so tethered. When you posted Hitchens i took it as your explanation to my question, and finding no explanation there wondered what is was you wanted me to take from him, especially in the context of gun control.



It's all cool man 

I think you jumped to a lot of conclusions about me and my posts regarding such topics. 

The freedom of speech point was totally besides gun control, it has absolutely no link what so ever. It seems like we just had a misunderstanding.
I hope I didn't come across like a jerk, but I really wasn't trying to irk you, as I had nothing negative to say about you or your posts.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Not to change the subject but do you ever sleep?



 hehe! yes. Between the hours of 1am and 11am, give or take an hour here and there. 

I'm not sure what that is in US time, I presume you're from the US? 

Right now, I'm in plaster, feeling miserable as sin.. I'm on my Christmas holiday too.. I don't feel like doing anything other than staying in my room, drinking coke, listening to good music and trying to just get through this hell hole of a holiday period... Marshall forum will entertain me for a good while.


----------



## brp

scat7s said:


> im not speaking in the context of handouts. things that used to be free, are no longer so. things that people "do"



Ya, I hear you. it's kinda the same here.
Lately I've been on a rant about the new toll bridges here, even though we pay a shitload of taxes for that sort of thing.

Then there's the $10 an hour parking on the streets downtown while they simultaneously whine that no one comes to the downtown shops and everyone stays in the suburbs to shop at the malls with free parking. 


Then there's the raised rates for camping in the provincial parks even though those parks are supported by more of our taxes.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> hehe! yes. Between the hours of 1am and 11am, give or take an hour here and there.
> 
> I'm not sure what that is in US time, I presume you're from the US?
> 
> Right now, I'm in plaster, feeling miserable as sin.. I'm on my Christmas holiday too.. I don't feel like doing anything other than staying in my room, drinking coke, listening to good music and trying to just get through this hell hole of a holiday period... Marshall forum will entertain me for a good while.


 
Mm, mm. Coke: the empire's drink


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> Mm, mm. Coke: the empire's drink



 Best drink for me.. at this festive time of year I splash out and get around 50 glass bottles of coke [6 packs]... popping that cap and taking a sip... beautiful!!! 

Tin cans are cool, but the ultimate is a glass bottle. I'll snap a picture sometime.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

We have the glass bottles here too. Great to drink one, nice and cold on a hot day... Good times, good times.

But I don't drink that shit anymore.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> We have the glass bottles here too. Great to drink one, nice and cold on a hot day... Good times, good times.
> 
> But I don't drink that shit anymore.



I get a sense you're all like, anti-corporations, anti-sugar and hip shit


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I get a sense you're all like, anti-corporations, anti-sugar and hip shit


 
Oh shit, isn't that like... a "hipster"?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> Oh shit, isn't that like... a "hipster"?



 yeah... dam modern vegetarian liberals....


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> yeah... dam modern vegetarian liberals....


 

It's _LIBTARD_.


Dumbass.





Or _bedwetter._ That works, too.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> It's _LIBTARD_.
> 
> 
> Dumbass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or _bedwetter_, that works, too.





I'm at one with the earth too ya know


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> Or _bedwetter_, that works, too.



'Bedwetters' in the UK are ginger people [red haired individuals] and the stereotype is that they have no souls.. ...


----------



## brp

Only a ginger can call another ginger ginger.


----------



## scat7s

thats not sugar in your coke anymore super...

but yeah, an ice cold bottle hits the spot sometimes...


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude what the hell?
> I don't even know what to say about this wall of text. It seems to me like you're trying to prove me wrong when I haven't even laid down my stipulations..
> 
> Take a chill pill dude.. I'm not saying you're wrong about anything.. I don't even know what this is all about to be honest.
> 
> *yladrd61 strokes off into a cup o noodles*
> 
> I don't care to talk about abortion, and I don't think American can or will ever change its gun laws.
> 
> Stop trying to pick a fight lol.. I have nothing else to say to you - you come at me with this huge amount of text and I don't even know why



Figured as much


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

scat7s said:


> thats not sugar in your coke anymore super...
> 
> but yeah, an ice cold bottle hits the spot sometimes...



well whatever the chemical it rocks!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Figured as much



Hopefully this is some sort of peace..


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I get a sense you're all like, anti-corporations, anti-sugar and hip shit


 
The worst part is I work for a corporation. Talk about hypocrite.
I guess that's where part of my furstration is.

But I'm not the best employee, so that _kinda_ balances it out.


----------



## brp

Do you make sure you get paid to shit? Cuz that's important if you're rebelling against corporations while working for one.


----------



## scat7s

SmokeyDopey said:


> The worst part is I work for a corporation. Talk about hypocrite.
> I guess that's where part of my furstration is.
> 
> But I'm not the best employee, so that _kinda_ balances it out.



me too smokey. 

its difficult to avoid. you have to take what you can get...you go to work, do your work, and collect your check so you can eat and have a roof. 

anything beyond that is gravy right? 

what i find most frustrating, is that it now take two incomes just to get by for your avg middle income wage earner. nevermind getting ahead a little bit...it wasnt always this way


----------



## SmokeyDopey

brp said:


> Do you make sure you get paid to shit? Cuz that's important if you're rebelling against corporations while working for one.


 
Hell yeah man, the bathrooms here are much cleaner than my own! 




I get paid to smoke, too. Tobacco of course.


----------



## yladrd61

blues_n_cues said:


> how can you not care about gun laws when in your 2nd paragraph it's the 2nd amendment right(gun law) that gives you that very freedom to protect yourself & your own???
> 
> "the right to keep and bear arms against all aggressors both foreign & domestic".



That is not what it says !!!

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."


----------



## yladrd61

Greyly said:


> I agree with your sentiment 100%, but I do not think an armed teacher(s) will stop one of these deviants from attempting these mass murders - they are suicidal as well as homicidal. They would just shoot the teacher first, then start gunning down the classmates until hopefully another teacher with a gun came along and hopefully shoots him in the head. The element of surprise dictates that the gunner, or gunners, will succeed at taking a lot of people out before help arrives. Short of a supermax prison style schoolhouse, I do not see a solution to this problem.
> 
> Wishful thinking on the anti-gun people that getting rid of guns will solve anything. If somehow, miraculously, all the guns in America were gone, not even the criminals could find one, these hellbent deviants would find or invent some other weapon or means of mass destruction.



If you shoot back there is always the chance you will injure or kill other people besides the shooter


----------



## yladrd61

Ydna said:


> Gun control isn't even the issue. They were his Mother's firearms. Unfortunately, he had access.
> 
> Everyone has heard about the guy that tried to rob a store with a gun that sold a lot of firearms, right?
> 
> The guy got plugged to shit. Something like 80 spent shells were found on the scene.
> 
> So yea, having people strapped is a great way to prevent crime. But it does kind of support Grunch's point. Those guys were all itching to shoot some son of a bitch. Maybe just to use their firearm? Or maybe they wanted to be heros. Can't be sure. But we all know one or two shots would be enough to take down a man.
> 
> I'm all for firearms in the right hands. Living in California, it's next to impossible to get a CCW, but if I find myself living in a shall issue state, I'll definitely look into getting one.



If his Mother had proper control of her guns in a gun safe with trigger locks it would have been much more difficult for him to kill so many people !!!!


----------



## Adwex

V-man said:


> Australian and a few other guys (I suspect Adwex being one) are anti gun and not afraid to state their opinions. Pretty much every issue has its share of stalwarts in favor against the those against with the middle making the rest.
> 
> You are no breath of fresh air with some opposing view. That existed during your latest absence and will return during your next. It is one thing to actually have a different opinion and advocate your position... Is an entirely different and worthless position to simply find or calculate a viewpoint, conveniently "adopt" that viewpoint and "advocate" that viewpoint with NOTHING other than personal attacks and sarcastic insults.
> 
> It is easy to be a "contradictarian" for the sake of being an asshole. There is no Socratic merit or anything special in the person who does this.



I'm not really "anti gun", but I share Grunch's feelings that this country's fascination with guns is disturbing. When I was a kid, like practically all young boys, I loved guns...I had cowboy guns, a snub-nose pistol, both shot "caps" (those little paper or plastic things with a small amount of gun powder that made a "bang"). I remember playing "army" with my friends, it's just part of a young boys fantasy of being manly. I also remember my first effort to save my money for something, it was pump air rifle. It didn't shoot any projectile, just air, and I remember wanting it real bad, so I saved a bunch of change over a few weeks, and I bought it. Just to emphasize....these were all TOY guns, I never wanted a real one.

As I got older, my fascination faded, and now I see guns a just plain dangerous. I grew up in a nice middle class town, and I have never really experienced too much violence, so I don't feel the need to have a gun. If I lived in an area where I felt I needed one to protect myself, I'd probably move somewhere else.


----------



## Micky

yladrd61 said:


> If his Mother had proper control of her guns in a gun safe with trigger locks it would have been much more difficult for him to kill so many people !!!!



That is why he killed her.
To get access.


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> If you shoot back there is always the chance you will injure or kill other people besides the shooter



Considering the odds (26 people dead) I think it would have been worth a shot.


----------



## yladrd61

Ghostman said:


> For those outside my country, and for some inside it, the unfortunate reality of our gun laws and how our founding fathers set up the system, technically it is not possible to change the rights of the citizens based upon changing political times and society beliefs. We can write and pass laws that would restrict or take away gun rights, but the system we live with, has a small thing called "checks and balances" that would immediately reverse the law due to it impeding the Constitutional rights of the citizens. Basically anything that is done to protect the citizens effectively restricts the rights of the citizens. Fucked up system, but you can't protect from "batshit crazy." The Amendment was put in place so that the citizens could take up arms against enemies, or protect themselves from a corrupt Government hell-bent on trampling the rights of the citizens. When the old farts were writing this out, I bet they didn't think that we'd take the "enemies" term as unlawful citizens. And good luck with pointing a gun at a Government official today.
> 
> What pissed me off was all the posts and comments about protecting our 2nd Amendment rights and this wouldn't have happened if the teachers were armed, as well as we need more God in our schools. These comments came less than a few hours of the tragedy being over. And they came way before we even knew anything about the shooter.
> 
> What if he was religious and raised by a religious family or parent? Where's your excuse for more God in that? Too many questions were open and are still left open, before anyone can make sense of the whole mess. But that didn't stop the ass-hats from screaming about not taking our guns away, or shoving their, yes THEIR, religion down everyone's throat.
> 
> The truth of the matter is, taking away our guns won't do shit. Criminals will get their hands on illegal items no matter what you do. How's that war on drugs working out America? Putting more guns in the hands of the citizens won't do shit either. Too many people will find themselves with itchy trigger fingers just because they now carry a concealed weapon.
> 
> The religious argument is invalid too. Putting God into the schools to teach them right from wrong only creates a Perfect Shit-storm because out of 30 students in a class only about 2 of them will have the same denomination of Christianity to follow. How do you teach to that? Out of 38,000 denominations of Christianity alone, good luck trying to build a cirriculum around that! Now mix in the other 10,000 different religions just to add some spice. Oh, yeah, and one other minor detail. The addition of religion into the state, and federally funded, and ran school system is a massive violation of the Constitutionally protected Separation of Church and State.
> 
> What is the solution? No one knows. Period. It could have been so many things that it's unfathomable to guess what it was. If the kid was crazy, why didn't he get help, or his parents get him help? If your kid was acting strange, what would you do? Would you send him to therapy? Most likely not, because we as parents don't see that our kids are "that messed up" to actually be a threat to society and send them to a psychiatrist. And when we do decide to go that way, we second guess ourselves that this would send the wrong message to our child and send them further spiraling into the wrong direction. We didn't get a manual for these things so it's a crap shoot.
> 
> All we can do in the mean time, is try to raise our kids the best way we know how, and hope or pray that the Chaos theory doesn't swing in our direction. When it does, we react and try to heal the best way we can.
> 
> rant over.



An Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is an Amendment for a reason. And it can be superseded by a New Amendment. However the bar for that was set very high for a reason. To protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. However as deeply divided as the US is now that will never happen.


----------



## yladrd61

Greyly said:


> *Addressing the mentality of our youth today is virtually impossible in a multicultural society. There are no longer any standards. I'll just leave it at that, because talking openly about how I feel would get me banned.
> *



I think they used to call it being a good Parent !!!! He killed Mom where was Dad ?


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> I think they used to call it being a good Parent !!!! He killed Mom where was Dad ?



Divorced and in another state. 

This stuff in in the news right about now.


----------



## Australian

NRA ftw! They're the sanest people on earth.


----------



## yladrd61

crossroadsnyc said:


> I'd be very much in favor of Iranian citizens having the right to bear arms ... in fact, if they were armed to the degree w/which folks are armed in the United States, the Iranian 'revolution', which has been suppressed for a very long time, would finally have a chance to flourish. Remember when Obama took office and there was news of the Iranian freedom movement that was rising? Well, that lasted about a week, as the government basically fired bullets into the crowds until people realized they had no choice but to follow the orders of the Iranian authorities. So, yes, an armed Iranian public, to me, is the first step toward a freedom loving Iranian public ... in fact, I'll take it a step further in suggesting that I think it has to be a part of the plan w/respect to our overall policy toward Iran (meaning, i think we should be arming their citizens).
> 
> As for nuclear weapons (which is going off topic) ... well, seeing as how citizens can't have nuclear weapons in their personal possession, I'm not sure that it's applicable to this debate. If we can't have nuclear weapons in our households, well, the same would apply to Iran if they were following our constitution.



Keep in mind the Iranian Revolution was a response to the brutal Tyrannical Government of the Shah of Iran, who was put in power by a CIA backed Coup and his Secret Police the Savak


----------



## Australian

Lead pellets ftw!


----------



## diesect20022000




----------



## Australian

Big guns and big cookie monster vocals! fuck yeah!


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


>




You keep away from our Kylie with your big gun.


----------



## yladrd61

V-man said:


> There are two issues here. One is to propose that Iranian CITIZENS be entitled to the same human rights enjoyed by Americans. To wit, if Iranians THEMSELVES are entitled to bear arms to ensure the people have means to "check" a tyrant in power from further harming them and their liberties.
> 
> Here, the founding fathers would maintain the Iranian PEOPLE have that right which is universal and Devine, and instrumental to the pursuit of life, liberty and property. The right of the people to be protected from a corrupt tyrant is universal.
> 
> 
> In the case of anthropomorphizing the State of Iran itself into a subject of antropomorphized United States, we must first point out that the premise is absurd. Nations are not people or personalities. They have no rights themselves. They are (in theory) a system in place by people to serve the people, which can be altered and removed by people (enter the US Civil war succession debate can of worms which we will not go further down the rabbit hole pursuing). Even still Iran as this "person" is not a subject of this country or its laws.
> 
> The distinction of these fundamental Rights is that our western philosophies apply to the empowerment of the INDIVIDUAL, not the power of the state. The power of the state falls within the Enumerated powers in the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights (where the second Amendment is) stand there as the first LIMITS on government for the protection of the people. Thus, you are talking about apples and oranges.
> 
> Even in the fantasy scenario where one stretches and distorts beyond recognition a case where the people of X are exploited by the government of Y so it is the divine right of X to have weapons to check the tyranny of those occupiers, there is no such case where nuclear arms would do a job where conventional arms cannot. In order to rule, one must occupy as did the British on colonial soil. Nuclear arms were not/are not/will not be necessary to repel a foreign invader from one's own soil.



Remember the US is the only Country to every use a Nuclear Weapon against Civilians


----------



## yladrd61

That Political Ad at the bottom of this thread is in very poor taste !!!!


----------



## yladrd61

V-man said:


> Clearly you have no education or understanding of constitutional law (not that you are expected to as a foreigner) but then you seem to comment as if you do.
> 
> 
> 1. Hunting is NOT a right... it is a privilege. This "privilege" is licensed (or not) and revokable by the state like a drivers license (which is also a privilege, not a right).
> 
> 2. Defense was explicitly stated by the founding fathers. The entire purpose of the Second translated in today's terms was not to give us Glocks to defend ourselves from psychos. It was placed there to give us M-16s to storm the Capitol building in the event they went too far in disobedience of the limits placed before them in the Constitution.
> 
> 
> Again, the Constitution does NOT apply on an individual-to-individual basis. Thus, if you write for my newspaper, I (as a private citizen) can censor your speech, or force you to consent to humiliating searches to stay employed.
> 
> The Amendments of the Constitution then, ONLY apply to the interaction between state and citizen and it was a measure to ensure the people weren't treated like second class garbage as the British did to the colonials. period.



The 2nd Amendment in no way Whatsoever gives any Citizen a Right to own and M16, or take up arms Against the U.S. Government that my friend is Treason !!!!! Which makes you an Enemy of the US.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> The 2nd Amendment in no way Whatsoever gives any Citizen a Right to own and M16, or take up arms Against the U.S. Government that my friend is Treason !!!!! Which makes you an Enemy of the US.



.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> You keep away from our Kylie with your big gun.


 it's just a pee shooter


----------



## yladrd61

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Just doing some light reading bro...
> 
> _Political scientists have estimated, for example, that former president Bill Clinton’s insistence in 1994 on an assault-weapons ban as part of a comprehensive crime-control bill directly contributed to the stunning victory by Republicans in the elections later that year. That victory included the defeat of the incumbent Speaker of the House, Thomas Foley, a representative from western Washington State with many pro-gun constituents in his district.
> 
> Since that election especially, the National Rifle Association has become one of the most feared groups in American politics. Gun-rights groups in general contributed over $3-million to candidates in the 2012 election cycle, with over $2.8-million of it going to Republican candidates. At least as important as the money, though, is the ability of the NRA to mobilize its members to vote for preferred candidates. Far more of the NRA’s 4.3 million members are “single-issue” voters than are members of gun-control groups.
> 
> In several ways, then, it is a bad investment for most candidates to be strongly identified with a position that can be described as “anti-gun.”
> 
> Would the president and his party behave differently if the United States had a Canadian-like parliamentary system, where one expects prime ministers and their parties to offer cogent responses to the great issues of the day? One might well think so. But, for better and definitely for worse, the United States remains trapped in a late 18th-century system of separated powers and “checks-and-balances” that is designed to maximize the number of veto points over legislation that might significantly change the status quo.
> 
> It therefore does not matter that the president won a resounding political victory last month and that his party, defying expectations, actually increased its membership in the United States Senate. Republican control of the House gives them what might well be called a death-ray veto over any and all proposals made by the President, even if adopted by the Senate.
> 
> President Obama has said on a number of occasions that “elections matter.” The sad truth is that they matter far less in the United States than in many other countries around the world. Canadians should feel fortunate not to be enmeshed within such a remarkably dysfunctional – or, as New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman has described it, “pathological”– political system.
> 
> Whether one focuses on what is sometimes called America’s “gun culture,” traceable at least in part to the successful armed revolution against Great Britain, or on the rigidities of the American constitutional order, including the political institutions established by the Constitution, the practical conclusion is the same: The status quo, whatever its problems, is likely to prevail._



I agree with a lot of what you say the NRA and other lobbying groups are a large part of the problems in our country right now. However it is not the form or Structure of our Government that is the Problem in Washington right now it is Lobbying groups like the NRA who hold more influence $$$$$$ over Congressman, Senators, and Presidents than the people they Represent


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> it's just a pee shooter




Yeah. Ive heard what Prozac can do.


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> So....if you leave your keys in you car and unlocked and i steal it and run over 20 kids you are responsible? Wow, i like that thinking.



But if I lock my car and you steal it and Run over 20 kids you are Responsible.


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> The 2nd Amendment in no way Whatsoever gives any Citizen a Right to own and M16, or take up arms Against the U.S. Government that my friend is Treason !!!!! Which makes you an Enemy of the US.



With all due respect, I'm sorry but I do not see where this says "with the exception of the M-16 rifle". 

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Also, our founding fathers had just come off of a two year battle with England, who had tried to disarm them. They were indeed talking about "governments" as a whole. If it were indeed treason, any one convicted of shooting an officer of the law would be tried for treason.


----------



## diesect20022000

Australian said:


> Yeah. Ive heard what Prozac can do.


 lol you and that prozac. mayonaise!


----------



## Australian

diesect20022000 said:


> lol you and that prozac. mayonaise!


----------



## yladrd61

LKrevival said:


> Well to start with one of the twisted misconceptions that the 2nd amendment pertains only to a militia which some have attempted to say means the nation guard.
> 
> To give you a idea into the mindset of most Americans.
> 
> No the 2nd amendment doesn't apply to the state militia, which in this day and age is the national guard controlled by the governor but subject to federal control under certain conditions which why national guard units have been deployed overseas into war zones.
> 
> The national guard has become effectively government troops. The essence of the bill of rights is to uphold rights for individual citizens , not to uphold rights for the government.
> 
> This is sometimes a double edged sword, because with individual freedoms comes responsibility but unfortunately sometimes some abuse these freedoms like this sicko did. Which leaves the choice to punish people as a whole and repeal freedom or to live with the possibilty that some will abuse it.
> 
> Most American's prefer the latter. We are use to being our own person, not having government as our nanny, this whole concept came from living under a government that abused people and forced us to do its bidding, the concept that while a individual criminal can terrorize a government with too much control can be the ultimate terror. We cringe at something so violent and senseless like a sicko killing 20 or 30 people but looking back in history governments have more blood on its hands than anybody sometimes being responsible for killing not just 20 or 30, but hundreds of thousands if not millions.
> 
> With all due respect to other people in other nations, most others outside the U.S.A are warmer to authority by their government. They through ages have lived under a system where government has authority compared to individual rights. While individual rights has increased through time in certain nations they haven't in some situations and those people prefer it that way so be it.
> 
> Not to say that the U.S.A is completely free, but people here tend to distrust government and want individuality from it more than some other people in the world, that is the way it seems to many American's looking at others around the world anyway.
> 
> While some nations have placed restrictions or bans on weapons after someone abused them, like in Scotland, Americans tend not to put too much faith in the police being able to protect them. As the the saying goes, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. You are ultimately your best protector.



Actually the Well Regulated Militia directly refers to a State Militia made up of the armed people. When it was written that is what made up the Continental Army, who with the help of the French Army and Navy finally defeated the British at Yorktown.


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> You need a history lesson. EVERY major genocide that has occured since 1900 was only accomplished AFTER the offending goverments passed laws forbidding the "target people" from possesing firearms. It is SO much easier to kill 6 million unarmed Jews, 800,000 subtribal unarmed vermin in Rwanda, or 1.8 Million "educated peoples" in Cambodia, to name a few.
> 
> The 2nd Amendment was inserted into the US Constitution to protect against tyranny in goverment. This also crosses into and individuals RIGHT to self defense. If government is not allowed to take your life neither is joe blow.
> 
> Thirdly, I am not responsible for what just happened. There is no blood on my hands....



The 2nd Amendment conveys no right to take up arms against the US Government {Treason }, and it says nothing about giving you the right to use a gun against another person, just as that other person does not have a right to use one against you.{Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Manslaughter, Attempted Murder, Murder}.


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> The 2nd Amendment conveys no right to take up arms against the US Government {Treason }, and it says nothing about giving you the right to use a gun against another person, just as that other person does not have a right to use one against you.{Assault with a Deadly Weapon, Manslaughter, Attempted Murder, Murder}.



Hows the soapbox treating you? Comfy?


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> You need a history lesson. EVERY major genocide that has occured since 1900 was only accomplished AFTER the offending goverments passed laws forbidding the "target people" from possesing firearms. It is SO much easier to kill 6 million unarmed Jews, 800,000 subtribal unarmed vermin in Rwanda, or 1.8 Million "educated peoples" in Cambodia, to name a few.
> 
> Of Course that does not include the major genocide of Native Americans by the US Cavalry under orders of the US Government


----------



## Australian

You're all missing the point. Soldiers are coming home. God forbid that boredom will set in.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> The 2nd Amendment conveys no right to take up arms against the US Government {Treason },



You are right about the 2nd amendment to take arms against the govt. 

Its in the Declaration of Independence. But it does not call for a armed uprising directly. The paragraph below is one of the reasons for the 2nd amendment.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."


----------



## Marshall Mann

Australian said:


> You're all missing the point. Soldiers are coming home. God forbid that boredom will set in.



Look Aussie, either side of the debate is irrelevant to to Mr ylad. He is too busy digging up posts to have a discussion right now.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> anitoli said:
> 
> 
> 
> You need a history lesson. EVERY major genocide that has occured since 1900 was only accomplished AFTER the offending goverments passed laws forbidding the "target people" from possesing firearms. It is SO much easier to kill 6 million unarmed Jews, 800,000 subtribal unarmed vermin in Rwanda, or 1.8 Million "educated peoples" in Cambodia, to name a few.
> 
> Of Course that does not include the major genocide of Native Americans by the US Cavalry under orders of the US Government
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love it when people pull up this argument. Like America was the only country ever conquered.
Click to expand...


----------



## Marshall Mann

Australian said:


> You're all missing the point. Soldiers are coming home. God forbid that boredom will set in.



Yey Aussie, we didn't vote to send people to war, politicians sent them. I dont know of anyone that wants war or the loss of life here. And I mean no one, republican or democrat.


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> Hunnh.....Theres no thinking required as to who WON WW2. And i'll give you a hint it wasnt England.....



Actually it was The US, England, France, Australia, and the USSR and Canada


----------



## Marshall Mann

HEY YLADRD!! HELLO!!!!!






Anyone home???

We realize you're late to the party, but your discussion is a bit one sided if all you can manage to do is dig up old posts and comment on them.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Wait for it........................


----------



## V-man

Adwex said:


> I'm not really "anti gun", but I share Grunch's feelings that this country's fascination with guns is disturbing...
> 
> As I got older, my fascination faded, and now I see guns a just plain dangerous. I grew up in a nice middle class town, and I have never really experienced too much violence, so I don't feel the need to have a gun. If I lived in an area where I felt I needed one to protect myself, I'd probably move somewhere else.



Far be it from me to find fault with your personal choice NOT to want to have anything to do with firearms, but I think the "incidents" of the past 2-3 decades show there is no "safe place". There are places that are far less likely to experience typical crimes, but the rampages of the crazy hit the schools, the offices, the churches, and the malls.


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> Correct. The Russians played a major role in the defeat of Germany by forcing Hilter to divide his resources on two fronts. Patton captured more land at a faster pace than anyone else. Its this second front in the west that calls into question the assertion that the Russians had it covered. If the Soviets had to face the full brunt of the German Juggernaught combined with logical not delusional planning as Hilter was doing, they might not have fared as well.



Hitler made 2 big Mistakes: 1st Mistake invading the Soviet Union after he made a deal with Stalin to split Poland instead of invading England, last mistake Declaring War on the US. Also Patton had the best teacher Erwin Rommel.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> Actually it was The US, England, France, Australia, and the USSR and Canada



Replies to post #402


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> Hitler made 2 big Mistakes: 1st Mistake invading the Soviet Union after he made a deal with Stalin to split Poland instead of invading England, last mistake Declaring War on the US. Also Patton had the best teacher Erwin Rommel.



Replies to post #414

He is going to single handily double the post count in the thread


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hello! And welcome to the ylard show!


----------



## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> Replies to post #414
> 
> He is going to single handily double the post count in the thread



This could take a while! Hilarious! What did we ever do without him!!!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> Hello! And welcome to the ylard show!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> This could take a while! Hilarious! What did we ever do without him!!!



Cant we all just pitch in and get him a hooker?


----------



## yladrd61

Adwex said:


> Can you imagine, those kids were fucking SHOT...multiple times...at close range...with an assault rifle.



Sometimes I wish we had a dislike button


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> Sometimes I wish we had a dislike button



Replies to post 460


----------



## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> Replies to post 460



1059 epiphanies to go!

What a dolt.


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> Sometimes I wish we had a dislike button



Me too!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> 1059 epiphanies to go!
> 
> What a dolt.





"dolt"

Snarfed


----------



## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> "dolt"
> 
> Snarfed



Sweet! Is that the first time I got you to snarf? 

I may have to PM him if this keeps up much longer.....


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> Sweet! Is that the first time I got you to snarf?
> 
> I may have to PM him if this keeps up much longer.....



2nd or 3rd I believe.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> 1059 epiphanies to go!
> 
> What a dolt.



OMG
Go back and edit some of your previous post and address him directly


----------



## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> OMG
> Go back and edit some of your previous post and address him directly





I wouldn't want to confuse him by disrupting the timeline or anything. He seems happy where he is. 

Well. it's been good for some levity ion this thread anyway, and I think it thats a good thing.


----------



## V-man

yladrd61 said:


> If you shoot back there is always the chance you will injure or kill other people besides the shooter





Marshall Mann said:


> Considering the odds (26 people dead) I think it would have been worth a shot.



MM called it.

The problem is that speculation gets no credit. Imagine a hypothetical tragedy, where the rampage would have taken as many as 15 under typical conditions. Now imagine the same scenario with the guy who does the right thing, but in so reducing to tragedy to 3 taken by the murderer two bystanders get seriously injured by the hero before he stopped the shooter. This will always be trumpeted by the gun grabbers as the reason why citizens should not carry guns... because the hero "took out as many" as the shooter, thus they are as much a liability. 

This is the unfair bullshit that contaminates the argument... The good guy stopping the nut turns into a pg 8 local news piece and the massacre makes national news. The citizen who tried to do the right thing and hit one innocent bystander would be crucified and the antis would have a feeding frenzy.

And I would love each and every one of them to squirm for a good long moment and think of some sick fuck stalking their neighborhood mall, casting off his coat, brandishing whatever (il)legal hardware in anticipation of his rampage... Let them imagine that scenario for one minute as their children walk out of a record store to their would be imminent slaughter and let them ask themselves then and there how they feel about the prospect of allowing a "pistol-pakin" gun nut who is willing to have a go at stopping the rampager to be allowed to roam that area.

I was the butt of all the Rambo jokes amidst my peers and colleagues. Then Katrina hit and stories (real and rumored) spread about parking lot homicides, looting, and gas riots. Funny how people conveniently change their tune when shit gets real. Funny how the "I'm not so sure I'd like a gun nut like you in my neighborhood" attitude turns into a "thank God I live next to that guy" when 3-5 dozen pissed off people who aren't from that neighborhood see Rambo take his trash out with an AR-15 on his shoulder and suddenly the street is empty of strangers.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> I wouldn't want to confuse him by disrupting the timeline or anything. He seems happy where he is.
> 
> Well. it's been good for some levity ion this thread anyway, and I think it thats a good thing.



Then I will do it

Look for a PM


----------



## yladrd61

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, because you're leaving out the 2nd Amendment (and the notion of constitutional rights) ... and the most important thing to remember about our Constitutional rights is that they do not come from government, but rather, from our Creator. The reason it's important to understand this distinction is because something granted / given to you by the government, can also be taken away by the government ... on the other hand, something granted to you by your Creator, cannot be taken away by the government. Our Constitutional rights are not not rights that the government gives us ... they are rights that God gives us ... and the government has to keep their hands off (it's our way of telling them "do not cross this line - or else!").



The word Creator or God do not appear anywhere in the U.S. Constitution !!!


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> The word Creator or God do not appear anywhere in the U.S. Constitution !!!



Whoo boy, this is getting painful.......


----------



## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> Figured as much



OMG! I'm dying!!!!!!


----------



## Holme

Marshall Mann said:


> OMG! I'm dying!!!!!!



I don't think printers should be allowed guns.




Or this'd be me on a Friday afternoon!





EDIT:This is a private joke to MM before people start going


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> I don't think printers should be allowed guns.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or this'd be me on a Friday afternoon!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:This is a private joke to MM before people start going



Is that a pic of you at HP HQ? 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## blues_n_cues

yladrd61 said:


> Hitler made 2 big Mistakes: 1st Mistake invading the Soviet Union after he made a deal with Stalin to split Poland instead of invading England, last mistake Declaring War on the US. Also Patton had the best teacher Erwin Rommel.



actually Patton's teachers were T. roosevelt,Blackjack Pershing,Atilla the hun,the vikings, & Ghengis Khan. "blitzkrieg" or lightning war was not a new concept.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

blues_n_cues said:


> actually Patton's teachers were T. roosevelt,Blackjack Pershing,Atilla the hun,the vikings, & Ghengis Khan. "blitzkrieg" or lightning war was not a new concept.



Exactly. As the American general who took inspiration from (my distant blood relative) fieldmarshall Rommel was general Schwarzkopf.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Australian

Pump more lead into the ocean! Fu*k the ecosystem!


----------



## blues_n_cues

Blokkadeleider said:


> Exactly. As the American general who took inspiration from (my distant blood relative) fieldmarshall Rommel was general Schwarzkopf.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



well "Stormin' Norman as we call him engineered the Gulf War battle plan but this is the man who made the ground offensive work in 100 hours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_M._Franks,_Jr.


----------



## Holme

Blokkadeleider said:


> Is that a pic of you at HP HQ?
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Yeah most Fridays Blok!
"We know you've got a job running till 4pm for TNT delivery but can you just squeeze this in?"
'Yeah if you can freeze time,if not piss off as you'll make this job late!'
"But we need it in London tomorrow?!?!?!?!"


----------



## longfxukxnhair

yladrd61 said:


> The word Creator or God do not appear anywhere in the U.S. Constitution !!!



Its in the Declaration
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Micky said:


> That is why he killed her.
> To get access.



He shot her 4 times in the head with a handgun. He already had access. 

Do you even know anything about what happened?


----------



## anitoli

yladrd61 said:


> But if I lock my car and you steal it and Run over 20 kids you are Responsible.


 
And if i lock my house and you break in and steal an unlocked gun YOU are responsible, not me.


----------



## anitoli

yladrd61 said:


> Remember the US is the only Country to every use a Nuclear Weapon against Civilians


 
Yes, but you totally miss the point and the history of WW2. There is no difference using two bombs to attack japanese cities in an attempt to demoralize a fanatical enemy than it was to fire bomb Dresden for the sole purpose of killing civilians in an attempt to force the german people to turn against the Nazi's. Dresden: 175,000. Nagasaki/Hiroshima: 250,000+. Absolutely no fucking difference. The allies were in agreement at this time frame, end the war, at any price. Worldwidwe casualties were over 100 million by the fall of Berlin, and when Truman said the "buck stops here" he meant it.


----------



## anitoli

yladrd61 said:


> Actually it was The US, England, France, Australia, and the USSR and Canada


 
Yes, every one involved played a part. The US was the game changer. No country fought on as many fronts as the US. Britan wouldnt have stood as long as they did without heavy US supply shipments. IT was the US and no other that took the pacific from the Japanese. The US took the brunt of all the island fighting with very little help from anyone else. Ever find if a little curious that Britain only did nighttime bombing raids into germany to take advantage of the extra night cover to minimise their losses while they didnt seem to have a problem letting the US do all the day work when it was by far easir for the Luftwaffe to attack?


----------



## anitoli

Blokkadeleider said:


> Exactly. As the American general who took inspiration from (my distant blood relative) fieldmarshall Rommel was general Schwarzkopf.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.


 
Ylard misses the point totally. In order to beat your opponent it is advantagous to know how he thinks.


----------



## diesect20022000

Image Detail for - Derailed | Writer Owl


----------



## anitoli

yladrd61 said:


> The word Creator or God do not appear anywhere in the U.S. Constitution !!!


 
It does in the Declaration of Independence:


When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

The constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence.. 

 you guys love that shit!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence..
> 
> you guys love that shit!



Quite a few Dutchmen also still love this:

Act of Abjuration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Gr,

Gerrit.

*Oh, and I'm one of them.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence..
> 
> you guys love that shit!


 
No, citizens love that shit, SUBJECTS only dream about it.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> No



ppppffffffffttttttt.......

You guys don't love it then? - there's me thinking it was important to you.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> ppppffffffffttttttt.......
> 
> You guys don't love it then? - there's me thinking it was important to you.


 
Of course we do. That's why some of us defend it

Let me put it this way:

In the Bolshevic revolution the Russians killed 20 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.

In the Long March the chinese killed 20-24 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.

In the colonies all the people had to do to shove FREEDOM up the people's asses was kill the British.

Freedom is a concept that people will gavitate to instictually. You dont need to force it on people.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Of course we do. That's why some of us defend it
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> In the Bolshevic revolution the Russians killed 20 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.
> 
> In the Long March the chinese killed 20-24 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.
> 
> In the colonies all the people had to do to shove FREEDOM up the people's asses was kill the British.
> 
> Freedom is a concept that people will gavitate to instictually. You dont need to force it on people.



+1


----------



## diesect20022000

anitoli said:


> Of course we do. That's why some of us defend it
> 
> Let me put it this way:
> 
> In the Bolshevic revolution the Russians killed 20 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.
> 
> In the Long March the chinese killed 20-24 million of their own people in order to shove communism up their asses.
> 
> In the colonies all the people had to do to shove FREEDOM up the people's asses was kill the British.
> 
> Freedom is a concept that people will gavitate to instictually. You dont need to force it on people.


 he's saying we're not "citizens".


----------



## anitoli

diesect20022000 said:


> he's saying we're not "citizens".


 
Who are you referring to?


----------



## anitoli

Blokkadeleider said:


> Quite a few Dutchmen also still love this:
> 
> Act of Abjuration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.
> 
> *Oh, and I'm one of them.


 
History always repeats itself. The price of freedom is eternal vigilence.


----------



## diesect20022000

anitoli said:


> Who are you referring to?


 feeling supersonic.


----------



## anitoli

diesect20022000 said:


> feeling supersonic.


 
Yeah, sorry for numbing it, i realized that after i posted. He's gonna need to do better that that to convince me that i, you, Americans are subjects not citizens of the USA!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

It is all a big corporation


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence..
> 
> you guys love that shit!



Its not shit. Maybe you dont care for or cant wrap your mind around it. But for a great many Americans its the foundation of this country. It was a simple & bold statement to the king of England to go fuck himself. And to me, thats very rock and roll!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Yeah, sorry for numbing it, i realized that after i posted. He's gonna need to do better that that to convince me that i, you, Americans are subjects not citizens of the USA!



 

Are you on drugs or something? - I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything!! 

This is a total mind fuck. The responses are just plain weird lately.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Its not shit. Maybe you dont care for or cant wrap your mind around it. But for a great many Americans its the foundation of this country. It was a simple & bold statement to the king of England to go fuck himself. And to me, thats very rock and roll!



Dude.. like for real... what the hell?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude.. like for real... what the hell?



You called it "shit". Im I not allowed to be offended?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> You called it "shit". Im I not allowed to be offended?



uh...


----------



## Marshall Mann

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The constitution, the bill of rights, the declaration of independence..
> 
> you guys love that shit!



Hey FS, 

You have to realize that it what our country was built on. Yes, we're proud of it (some more so than others). It's what all of our laws are based off of and the primary thing we have to defend our selves in a court of law with. It's what protects our freedom. It's fabric our country is made of. 

You live in a Monarchy, so I'm not surprised it's seem a bit foreign to you. But it's very important to us.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey FS,
> 
> You have to realize that it what our country was built on. Yes, we're proud of it (some more so than others). It's what all of our laws are based off of and the primary thing we have to defend our selves in a court of law with. It's what protects our freedom. It's fabric our country is made of.
> 
> You live in a Monarchy, so I'm not surprised it's seem a bit foreign to you. But it's very important to us.



In reply to above,.NO,.England.,like several other countries had settled various colonies in what is now the United States,.at the time of the American Revolution only 13 colonies existed (United States didn't come into being until "after" we successfully booted the English out),.more or less England did gain control of these colonies (some founded by the Dutch,.etc.)and the rest is history.The main reason for the colonies to unite against England involved King Georges' tax schemes,.colonists refused to be taxed without representation.,which is how England controlled these colonies, among other things.
So in answer to your question "America" was founded by many different countries in the form of colonies more or less for trading purposes,.New York area by the Dutch,.
Florida by the Spanish,parts of northern New England by the French,.all leading to the displacement of the original inhabitants.,American Indians.

actually it was between English and French... French because that was the international language of business and literature at the time. Prior to the English sending thier prisoners, exploiting businessmen and religious refugees; there were thousands upon thousands of people already living here. We call them native americans now, but they were wrongly dubbed "Indians" by good old Italian Christopher Columbus in the 1400's when he thought he had reached the west indie's. The percentage of "English" that are here now in comparison to the thousands of other nationalities is realtivly low. And the dandy old English governement couldn't keep hold of thier colonies in the 1700's and through war... we became independant from them.

The first Europeans to land in America were the Vikings and there is a tradition that a mediaevil Scottish adventurer landed in America.The American colonists by and large viewed themselves as Englishmen and their grievance against the British was due to what they perceived as infringements of their traditional rights as Englishmen.The ruling elite in the colonies were initially more concerned with protecting their status and wealth than gaining independence however their demands for justice were adopted by the rest of the colonists and the war became a crusade against perceived oppresion and injustice by the British.A large proportion of Americans remained loyal to the crown and if the British had exploited this then the outcome of the war may have been different.The fact is however that America although defeating the British effectively remained as an 'informal' colony inasmuchas the economy relied heavily on British capital and imports.Also far from creating a democratic utopia little changed in terms of political realities.The landed elite which ruled the colonies continued to rule post colonial America until well into the nineteenth century.They were an aristocracy in spite of the fact that they did not refer to themselves as such.The loss of the colonies proved in the long term to be profitable for Britain in that France was financially crippled by participation in the war and this directly resulted in the revolution and subsequent Napoleonic wars,from which Britain emerged victorious and unchallenged as the world's most powerful nation.

yeah yeah .. all cool man... I'm feeling ya.. 

I meant shit... as in 'good shit'.. 

Wendy: "hey, how are you liking that hamburger Billy?"
Billy: "hey Wendy, this is a good shit" 

Now normally, Wendy wouldn't be like. 'oh my god, did you call that hamburger shit? like poo... oh how disrespectful'.. 

She'd just smile... and with a sophistication understand that he meant is as a good thing. 

Your post is good shit man...continue..


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> The loss of the colonies proved in the long term to be profitable for Britain in that France was financially crippled by participation in the war and this directly resulted in the revolution and subsequent Napoleonic wars,from which Britain emerged victorious and unchallenged as the world's most powerful nation.


 
Umm.... Then why the need for US involvement in two world wars?
Then why the need to let the US take the shit detail in Iraq while Britain runs in and takes the Basra oil field region?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Umm.... Then why the need for US involvement in two world wars?
> Then why the need to let the US take the shit detail in Iraq while Britain runs in and takes the Basra oil field region?


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


>


 
Unh....Seriously dude. If Britain was THE most powerful nation why the incessant need for a military bailout?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Unh....Seriously dude. If Britain was THE most powerful nation why the incessant need for a military bailout?



I didn't write any of that... and I think whoever wrote it was referring to Britain 'at the time', not now.


----------



## diesect20022000

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHT5QoVhLTA]3LW - Getting too heavy - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## diesect20022000

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHT5QoVhLTA"].[/ame]


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I didn't write any of that... and I think whoever wrote it was referring to Britain 'at the time', not now.


 
Well....At the time they lost again in the War of 1812.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Well....At the time they lost again in the War of 1812.



uh... lol  

You really are excitable.. like a puppy. You're cute  You care so much.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Feeling Supersonic said:


> In reply to above,.NO,.England.,like several other countries had settled various colonies in what is now the United States,.at the time of the American Revolution only 13 colonies existed (United States didn't come into being until "after" we successfully booted the English out),.more or less England did gain control of these colonies (some founded by the Dutch,.etc.)and the rest is history.The main reason for the colonies to unite against England involved King Georges' tax schemes,.colonists refused to be taxed without representation.,which is how England controlled these colonies, among other things.
> So in answer to your question "America" was founded by many different countries in the form of colonies more or less for trading purposes,.New York area by the Dutch,.
> Florida by the Spanish,parts of northern New England by the French,.all leading to the displacement of the original inhabitants.,American Indians.
> 
> actually it was between English and French... French because that was the international language of business and literature at the time. Prior to the English sending thier prisoners, exploiting businessmen and religious refugees; there were thousands upon thousands of people already living here. We call them native americans now, but they were wrongly dubbed "Indians" by good old Italian Christopher Columbus in the 1400's when he thought he had reached the west indie's. The percentage of "English" that are here now in comparison to the thousands of other nationalities is realtivly low. And the dandy old English governement couldn't keep hold of thier colonies in the 1700's and through war... we became independant from them.
> 
> The first Europeans to land in America were the Vikings and there is a tradition that a mediaevil Scottish adventurer landed in America.The American colonists by and large viewed themselves as Englishmen and their grievance against the British was due to what they perceived as infringements of their traditional rights as Englishmen.The ruling elite in the colonies were initially more concerned with protecting their status and wealth than gaining independence however their demands for justice were adopted by the rest of the colonists and the war became a crusade against perceived oppresion and injustice by the British.A large proportion of Americans remained loyal to the crown and if the British had exploited this then the outcome of the war may have been different.The fact is however that America although defeating the British effectively remained as an 'informal' colony inasmuchas the economy relied heavily on British capital and imports.Also far from creating a democratic utopia little changed in terms of political realities.The landed elite which ruled the colonies continued to rule post colonial America until well into the nineteenth century.They were an aristocracy in spite of the fact that they did not refer to themselves as such.The loss of the colonies proved in the long term to be profitable for Britain in that France was financially crippled by participation in the war and this directly resulted in the revolution and subsequent Napoleonic wars,from which Britain emerged victorious and unchallenged as the world's most powerful nation.
> 
> yeah yeah .. all cool man... I'm feeling ya..
> 
> I meant shit... as in 'good shit'..
> 
> Wendy: "hey, how are you liking that hamburger Billy?"
> Billy: "hey Wendy, this is a good shit"
> 
> Now normally, Wendy wouldn't be like. 'oh my god, did you call that hamburger shit? like poo... oh how disrespectful'..
> 
> She'd just smile... and with a sophistication understand that he meant is as a good thing.
> 
> Your post is good shit man...continue..



Hey FS, 

Respectfully, I'm done with this, at least for now. We are not getting anything accomplished after 1500 + posts and I dont expect we will. You have a country with principals that you believe in, that you are proud of, and so do I. I cant speak for the UK, but life is good here. 

Respect


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey FS,
> 
> Respectfully, I'm done with this, at least for now. We are not getting anything accomplished after 1500 + posts and I dont expect we will. You have a country with principals that you believe in, that you are proud of, and so do I. I cant speak for the UK, but life is good here.
> 
> Respect



Likewise man


----------



## Australian

Well there is sure to be some changes. This video is representative of the sector that demand a less volatile environment:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM9BNrAsc0w]Hollywood stars use video to demand action on gun violence in USA - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Australian

Beyonce gets some booty on when she says Oak Creek. 

You go girl!


----------



## gdh1532

.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Beyonce gets some booty on when she says Oak Creek.
> 
> You go girl!



_She's a survivor! _


----------



## V-man

Thanks for posting that "great" celeb video... Because if it isn't bad enough we have idiots being influenced by the witticisms of a bunch of pampered cunts with armed guards, private schools, and cocaine delivery, I have counted no fewer than a half a dozen of those participating who owe a few paychecks if not careers to the movies/shows they acted in, which glorified violence/crime.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

God I hate when they do that shit


----------



## V-man

SmokeyDopey said:


> God I hate when they do that shit



It's one thing should they get involved with the organization of choice and campaign for their views. This OTOH is nothing more than some lazy millionaire's fucking "tweet" polluting the airwaves.

How about you save your screen time to entertain and earn your paycheck (often glorifying violence) instead of telling your viewers how they should think?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_Guns are bad mmmmm'kay_


----------



## Australian

Well what I've learned here is that the American gun situation is out of control.

I dont see ownership of guns as a problem, but the fact that it's "the gun" that makes a person feel safe is something that is imbedded in the culture. I dont see that as a problem if you're planning on having a civil war. There seems to be a silent "cold war" happening in America as we speak. Any wonder the government continues to cry "enemy on the other side of the mountain". 

Citizens want less gun more taser from police. I think they'll get that, but the police will allow citizens less gun in proportion over time.

Yes the gun situation in America is out of control.


----------



## 2203xman

He,He,wow what a thread!!I always like to remember something from my WW2 readings.I love this..After the surender of Japan,it was learned that one of the reasons there was no west coast land invasion at the same time of pearl harbor,was that the Japanese knew that the average American citizen was heavily armed.Oh, God bless America!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian, dude I found the opposite to you. 

I found out that guns are a good thing, and you're not a true American if you don't support the right to bear arms. 

The constitution, the bill of rights and the declaration of independence are always 100% fact and true, and they're the holy grails for freedom and liberty and they're what makes America amazing.


----------



## Australian

2203xman said:


> He,He,wow what a thread!!I always like to remember something from my WW2 readings.I love this..After the surender of Japan,it was learned that one of the reasons there was no west coast land invasion at the same time of pearl harbor,was that the Japanese knew that the average American citizen was heavily armed.Oh, God bless America!




Well more guns more guns. More death more death. Dont cry when death comes to your doorstep.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Well more guns more guns. More death more death. Dont cry when death comes to your doorstep.



Dude he'll be armed with a gun, ain't no one gunna harm this soldier. 

Am I doing it right?


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude he'll be armed with a gun, ain't no one gunna harm this soldier.
> 
> Am I doing it right?




Yeah that was spot on. 

The Bill of Rights must never be changed. Nothing should be changed.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Yeah that was spot on.
> 
> The Bill of Rights must never be changed. Nothing should be changed.



Correct! 

You've learnt well.


----------



## Australian

More gun songs I say!

"I shot you in the ass as you entered my window"

"If I said you had a beautiful gun would you hold it against me"

"If you dont behave, daddys gonna open the safe"

"Ive got a lovely bunch of guns"

"Boom boom boom lets go back to 1862"


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Well what I've learned here is that the American gun situation is out of control.
> 
> I dont see ownership of guns as a problem,



Nice to read but some of your comments seem to contradict this




> but the fact that it's "the gun" that makes a person feel safe is something that is imbedded in the culture.



It is hard to agree with this (both the sentiment itself and your argument that it is factual), particularly since there seems to be a sizable group who seems to feel unsafe "because of the existence of guns in people's possession."




> I dont see that as a problem if you're planning on having a civil war. There seems to be a silent "cold war" happening in America as we speak. Any wonder the government continues to cry "enemy on the other side of the mountain".



These are accurate observations, IMO.




> Citizens want less gun more taser from police. I think they'll get that, but the police will allow citizens less gun in proportion over time.



I am not sure if these impressions are based on your experience, but while everybody is likely to agree that the taser as another tool in the belt is a good thing, I don't think anybody is advocating it as a replacement to firearms. More importantly, things may differ in your neck of the woods, but police don't have a say in "allowing" the citizens to have or do anything. Those that think they have this power are soon answerable for it (like the New Orleans PD attempting house-to-house confiscations of firearms by order of the chief during hurricane Katrina and the subsequent lawsuit for the illegal action).




> Yes the gun situation in America is out of control.



I don't really know what this "situation" is that you refer to, but I wager it is generalized and inaccurate. is the situation gun rampages (which though horrific and over covered by the media) is an extremely remote occurrence here? If you mean "gun violence in general" in the US, then you open the door to far larger public health threats that are receiving inadequate attention (namely drugs, including alcohol as well as illicit and prescription, and motor cars). If the situation refers to "private liberties in gun ownership," we can go around and around over that can of worms as well. Most importantly, your "gun situation" moniker plays into the same nonsense the gun grabbing fools are trying to use to frame the issue. We have always had these (and better weapons) throughout history, but we have not always had these problems. Thus this isn't a "gun situation," it's a "societal situation".

Blaming guns in these situations is as productive as tracing a human demographic in violent crimes and exterminating those who fall within the demographic as the solution.


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> Nice to read but some of your comments seem to contradict this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is hard to agree with this (both the sentiment itself and your argument that it is factual), particularly since there seems to be a sizable group who seems to feel unsafe "because of the existence of guns in people's possession."
> 
> 
> 
> These are accurate observations, IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure if these impressions are based on your experience, but while everybody is likely to agree that the taser as another tool in the belt is a good thing, I don't thing any is advocating it as are placement to firearms. More importantly, things may differ in your neck of the woods, but police don't have a say in "allowing" the citizens to have or do anything. Those that think they have this power are soon answerable for it (like the New Orleans police attempting house-to-house confiscations of firearms by order of the chief and the subsequent lawsuit).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really know what this "situation" is that you refer to, but I wager it is generalized and inaccurate. Is the situation gun rampages (which though horrific and over covered by the media) is an extremely remote occurrence here. If you mean gun violence in general in the US, then you open the door to far larger public health threats that are receiving inadequate attention (namely drugs, including alcohol as well as illicit and prescription, and motor cars). If the situation refers to private liberties in gun ownership, we can go around and around over that can of worms as well. Most importantly, your "gun situation" moniker plays into the same nonsense the gun grabbing fools are trying to use to frame the issue. We have always had these (and better weapons) throughout history, but we have not always had these problems. Thus this isn't a "gun situation," it's a "societal situation".
> 
> Blaming guns in these situations is as productive as tracing a human demographic in violent crimes and exterminating those who fall within the demographic as the solution.





The fact that the NRA can have the balls to deliver this formal asinine statement "what we need to fix this problem is *more guns*" shows that some vested interests are involved here. Complete blindness to the problem. Blindness and idiocy.

How are the NRA having their bills passed? Lets look into that first.


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> Well what I've learned here is that the American gun situation is out of control.
> 
> I dont see ownership of guns as a problem, but the fact that it's "the gun" that makes a person feel safe is something that is imbedded in the culture. I dont see that as a problem if you're planning on having a civil war. There seems to be a silent "cold war" happening in America as we speak. Any wonder the government continues to cry "enemy on the other side of the mountain".
> 
> Citizens want less gun more taser from police. I think they'll get that, but the police will allow citizens less gun in proportion over time.
> 
> Yes the gun situation in America is out of control.



To be more general, guns make people more powerful. This power can be used defensively, or offensively. Honorable people defend themselves with them, criminals use them to prey on others.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> The fact that the NRA can have the balls to deliver this formal asinine statement "what we need to fix this problem is *more guns*" shows that some vested interests are involved here. Complete blindness to the problem. Blindness and idiocy.



First and foremost, the IDIOCY comes from prolific assumption that the NRA and its spokesperson is the singleminded thought and philosophy of the millions of gun owners in America, and unfortunately your comments are risking the same if you want to stick with the assumption.

Second, since this Tragedy (like all others INCLUDING those that OCCURRED DURING the bans in the past) are meaningless circuses to all but the victims and their families, there will be no meaningful research and dedication to eradicating this issue in mental health. So having dispensed with the reality that there is a better way to address this but nobody will do what is necessary to do so, you have two bullshit choices proposed:

1. Ban what was banned before (which was attempted before and had failed utterly); or

2. Introduce qualified security into the schools to prevent or mitigate the damage caused by those who can and will access such weapons whether legal or not.


Between these two bullshit band aid choices, which do you think makes more sense, the one that further opens the door to the destruction of private liberties AND has proven to fail, or the measure that costs more and has not had a proven record of failure?

I say two bullshit choices that completely ignore the real issue, but one is patently moronic. PS remember that pilots were armed following 9/11 and despite the typical "they're not qualified/oh teh noes Wild West" BS, no apocalyptic insanity ensued with that.


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> To be more general, guns make people more powerful. This power can be used defensively, or offensively. Honorable people defend themselves with them, criminals use them to prey on others.




I see America as being above needing a gun to have power. I'm flabbergasted.
But America should definitely start cleaning up the criminal sector.

These violent TV shows, violent Video games make sense now. I'm stunned at all of this.

Like it or not, its a gun culture. I dont watch any of those violent cop shows. To me theyre boring.
I am a fan of Rambo movies though.


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> First and foremost, the IDIOCY comes from prolific assumption that the NRA and its spokesperson is the singleminded thought and philosophy of the millions of gun owners in America, and unfortunately your comments are risking the same if you want to stick with the assumption.
> 
> Second, since this Tragedy (like all others INCLUDING those that OCCURRED DURING the bans in the past) are meaningless circuses to all but the victims and their families, there will be no meaningful research and dedication to eradicating this issue in mental health. So having dispensed with the reality that there is a better way to address this but nobody will do what is necessary to do so, you have two bullshit choices proposed:
> 
> 1. Ban what was banned before (which was attempted before and had failed utterly); or
> 
> 2. Introduce qualified security into the schools to prevent or mitigate the damage caused by those who can and will access such weapons whether legal or not.
> 
> 
> Between these two bullshit band aid choices, which do you think makes more sense, the one that further opens the door to the destruction of private liberties AND has proven to fail, or the measure that costs more and has not had a proven record of failure?
> 
> I say two bullshit choices that completely ignore the real issue, but one is patently moronic. PS remember that pilots were armed following 9/11 and despite the typical "they're not qualified/oh teh noes Wild West" BS, no apocalyptic insanity ensued with that.




9/11. How many lies surround that one?

Lets see if the "soft puppies thread" works in real life to divert the publics attention this time.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> 9/11. How many lies surround that one?
> 
> Lets see if the "soft puppies thread" works in real life to divert the publics attention this time.


 
9/11? Oh let me guess *the big conspiracy theory!* Yup i am sure Al-Qaida had nothing to do with it. It was the GOVERNMENT!


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> 9/11. How many lies surround that one?
> 
> Lets see if the "soft puppies thread" works in real life to divert the publics attention this time.



Whatever you want to argue or propagate on 9/11 has no bearing on the issue or why I cited it.

The point is that there is some idiotic misconception that allowing people who are not Green Berets the opportunity to carry a firearm causes a "Wild West" societal breakdown has been whined about at every turn and it holds no water.

1. If you let people have CCW (concealed carry permits), the "city of Fill-in-the-blank" will turn into the Wild West with road rage incidents and grocery store shootings at every turn. - in the 15 years of expansive CCW legislation, this myth has been debunked on a city-to-city basis

2. If you let the pilots carry, there will be weapons on the plane some terrorist can get/wild west scenario (ironically this has been less strenuously voiced, and I suspect that comes from people's idiotic confidence in the pilots' uniforms). - No firearms-related issues of any kind on board to date.

3. If you let guns in the schools, blah blah. Same old shit, different setting. Since writing "Thou shall not" on a piece of paper cannot keep guns out of schools, it is better to have qualified people on call or allowing the freedom for those who CHOOSE to carry and qualify for a permit. (I disagree with compulsory carry for people who would not choose to carry and are not qualified).


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> 9/11? Oh let me guess *the big conspiracy theory!* Yup i am sure Al-Qaida had nothing to do with it. It was the GOVERNMENT!




You keep buying your guns and reading those free fortune cookies you get with each purchase and you'll do just fine as a member out of society.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> You keep buying your guns and reading those free fortune cookies you get with each purchase and you'll do just fine as a member out of society.



And this is how these "discussions" break down into stupidity.

What is the point of your comment? What merit does it actually have. You made some serious comments about the issue, I responded and I used an analogy. Then you saw fit to use the analogy that you clearly understood as an excuse for some nonsensical derailment whereby you could use to bait others into some "lulz... Gun nutz" quip. 

Very intelligent. Perhaps this is how one deflects an argument that is not going his way by the merits covered, but again, part of the idiocy surrounding the non-topical subjects ban here.


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> 3. If you let guns in the schools, blah blah. Same old shit, different setting. Since writing "Thou shall not" on a piece of paper cannot keep guns out of schools, it is better to have qualified people on call or allowing the freedom for those who CHOOSE to carry and qualify for a permit. (I disagree with compulsory carry for people who would not choose to carry and are not qualified).





Two problems here. The NRA is shitting themselves. They're going to come out of this smaller then they've ever been. Trust me on that.

Second, the "Mental Health sector" are always quick to say "more funds. we need more funds." 
No you dont deserve more funds because you cant cure anyone!
Its not the first time that their medication made someone feel like their head was going to explode and want to kill everything in sight.

Youre clever with words, but the big picture is at stake here. Rhetoric can only stand tall if one has considered all aspects of the problem.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> You keep buying your guns and reading those free fortune cookies you get with each purchase and you'll do just fine as a member out of society.


 
Fuck are you talking about? Hate to let you in on the joke by youre quckly climbing in the race for asshole of the month.

Again, i have lived in your nanny state gone wild country for a year. Is there anything that your Gov doesnt need to tell you how to do? Really if you arent an American then the gun issue doesnt mean fuck all to you to begin with. I dont give a shit about your gun laws- any people dumb enough to let that happen deserve what they get in the end.


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> Fuck are you talking about? Hate to let you in on the joke by youre quckly climbing in the race for asshole of the month.
> 
> Again, i have lived in your nanny state gone wild country for a year. Is there anything that your Gov doesnt need to tell you how to do? Really if you arent an American then the gun issue doesnt mean fuck all to you to begin with. I dont give a shit about your gun laws- any people dumb enough to let that happen deserve what they get in the end.




If one mentions change in relation to gun laws , you explode like a keg of dynamite. Do you really think that you're to be trusted with a rifle?


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> If one mentions change in relation to gun laws , you explode like a keg of dynamite. Do you really think that you're to be trusted with a rifle?


 
Ummm....If i was that much of an explosion danger i wouldnt have passed the State Police background check and gotten a CCW permit now would i?

It's obvious you Gov doesnt trust any of you.......


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> Ummm....If i was that much of an explosion danger i wouldnt have passed the State Police background check and gotten a CCW permit now would i?




That depends. What does the current background check involve?
Isnt that what the "people" want -better background checks?


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Two problems here. The NRA is shitting themselves. They're going to come out of this smaller then they've ever been. Trust me on that.



Whatever you consider a problem regarding the NRA is irrelevant with respect to the topic at large.




> Second, the "Mental Health sector" are always quick to say "more funds. we need more funds."
> No you dont deserve more funds because you cant cure anyone!
> Its not the first time that their medication made someone feel like their head was going to explode and want to kill everything in sight.



While there may be merit to your point that "funds without a strategy" may be a pointless way to throw money at a problem, your view above is an inaccurate over generalization of the problem. Perhaps "planned resources" could allow for a non-medicated alternative, or provide a better warning system for the intervention of certain individuals, or provide better counseling resources to help deflect some of these breakdowns.



> Youre clever with words, but the big picture is at stake here. Rhetoric can only stand tall if one has considered all aspects of the problem.



First and foremost, ALL aspects of the problem as a FACT will neither be considered nor explored. That is not how the people's brains work nor is it now their politicians lead them. If this was in fact the case, we wouldn't have these problems today and would have praise instead of hostility for our politicians.

Second, since you haven't yet, why don't you specifically identify what this "big picture" is and (since you seem to be taking on that oh so English air of knowledge on US affairs) feel free to point out how we should be addressing the solution here.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> is and (since you seem to be _*taking on that oh so English air of knowledge on US affairs*_) feel free to point out how we should be addressing the solution here.



That's inflammatory.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> That depends. What does the current background check involve?
> Isnt that what the "people" want -better background checks?



Concealed carry BG checks are extensive and the state takes 45-90 days to process the application. Included is any legal and medical background, fingerprinting, and full release authorizations to check the applicant's mental health and criminal records.


----------



## V-man

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's inflammatory.



I will qualify that remark, then.

As I have mentioned here for more than 2 years, there have been people on this site and (far more voluminously), on others who preach down to the American stenchards about their quaint little cowboy notions, etc. moreover, half the CNN commentators on this very issue of banning guns come with the smug English accents of their foreign talking heads.

I am referring to this trend and this trend is factual, down to my beloved John Cleese who can eat a dick for his jabs on the US over this issue.


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> Second, since you haven't yet, why don't you specifically identify what this "big picture" is and (since you seem to be taking on that oh so English air of knowledge on US affairs) feel free to point out how we should be addressing the solution here.




The big picture-ok here's one big piece.

America had a recession because the government spent and spent and spent on a war. Then The bankers came in and fucked it up good and proper so the government jumped on that and used it to hide their "major crime to mankind".


Who wins from wars? The "mental profession" for one(i feel so guilty calling it a profession) they are sure be flooded by clients. Shame they cant cure . But they actually destroy too which is a major concern.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> feel free to point out how we should be addressing the solution here.



Dude, I'll have a crack. 

As a supporter of the constitution, the bill of rights and the declaration of independence I'll dispense some of my wisdom. Those documents are fantastic by the way. 

First and foremost as a defender of the NRA, God bless that group, I believe it only right to introduce more guns into society, and that includes school where children learn. 

What needs to happen is that teachers are trained by the marines and armed at all times during hours of school. 

This way the next time a fruit-loop with an AR-15 comes to a school, the teacher can unleash a typhoon of whoop ass and death their way! thus protecting all the children and averting another disaster like Sandy Hook. 

Statistics show that more guns = less crime. 

It's proven to be the case, with rigid knowledge, that if you introduce gun control to a state more people die. 

In fact, people that support gun control have blood on their hands! as has been suggested in this thread. 

The 2cd amendment must not be changed, otherwise you'd become 'Subjects' and not lawful and beautiful citizens. 

Like B. Franky my homeboy said, if you do not fight for freedom, you do not deserve freedom or liberty! 

The USA should not change its gun laws, otherwise all citizens would become 'subjects' and be sitting ducks to tyrannical events in the future imposed by the government.

Ending statement... 

the Japs didn't wanna invade US because everyone was armed! 

Fuck yeah! 

Now ya see Australian, your argument is void...... you know nothing about the USA... You just keep supping the VB bitters at the local surf shack.. and bowing down to the Monarchy... 

USA! USA! USA!


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> That depends. What does the current background check involve?
> Isnt that what the "people" want -better background checks?


 
Complete criminal history check. ANY THING involving violence immediate no go. Civil and misdemeaner check. For example: 4 OUI convictions are not considered violent criminal activity but shows an inability to follow rules- can be cause for denial.
Have to complete a certified training course. Then the issuing authority can still reject the application for other reasons.

My state has strict no engagement or escalation gidelines written into the law. You have to AVOID a confrontation while carrying at all costs. If you even mouth off or get cocky or aggressive you might not be acting in self defense. You really have to have avoided the altercation by all means.
Using the gun is a LAST resort and the courts want to see it that way as well.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> That's inflammatory.


 
No, hemmoriods are!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> No, hemmoriods are!



You're used to giving all the boys hemmoroids aren't you...


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Now ya see Australian, your argument is void...... you know nothing about the USA... You just keep supping the VB bitters at the local surf shack.. and bowing down to the Monarchy...
> 
> USA! USA! USA!



You keep keeping an eye on the past and I'll keep an eye on the future.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> You keep keeping an eye on the past and I'll keep an eye on the future.


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude, I'll have a crack


 
Dude, All you gotta do is find a Rosie O'Donnel look-a-like and you can bury your face in 25 pounds of it!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Dude, All you gotta do is find a Rosie O'Donnel look-a-like and you can bury your face in 25 pounds of it!



Ahh the great beautiful face of American television... 

I'd rather have a rough and tumble with you any day cowboy.. you can show me your loaded gun..


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> My state has strict no engagement or escalation gidelines written into the law. You have to AVOID a confrontation while carrying at all costs. If you even mouth off or get cocky or aggressive you might not be acting in self defense. You really have to have avoided the altercation by all means.
> Using the gun is a LAST resort and the courts want to see it that way as well.




I see so youre saying that this recent murderer used the gun as a last resort?


----------



## anitoli

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Ahh the great beautiful face of American television...
> 
> I'd rather have a rough and tumble with you any day cowboy.. you can show me your loaded gun..


 
Time i was done with you you'd never shit right again.....


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> The big picture-ok here's one big piece.
> 
> America had a recession because the government spent and spent and spent on a war. Then The bankers came in and fucked it up good and proper so the government jumped on that and used it to hide their "major crime to mankind".
> 
> 
> Who wins from wars? The "mental profession" for one(i feel so guilty calling it a profession) they are sure be flooded by clients. Shame they cant cure . But they actually destroy too which is a major concern.



Well, with respect to the issues we should REALLY be focused upon, I agree, but the workplace and school rampages beginning in the 80s, and spiking in the 1990s (during the ban) all occurred before this, so it appears that addressing the "big picture" items may have little or no bearing on this (agreed) "little picture" issue.


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> Well, with respect to the issues we should REALLY be focused upon, I agree, but the workplace and school rampages beginning in the 80s, and spiking in the 1990s (during the ban) all occurred before this, so it appears that addressing the "big picture" items may have little or no bearing on this (agreed) "little picture" issue.




Can you expound on this. Im missing the significance of the 80's and 90's here.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> I see so youre saying that this recent murderer used the gun as a last resort?


 
No. 
1.He wasnt licensed for conceald carry. 

2. CCW ONLY applies to handguns NOT rifles or shotguns.

3. I dont think the kids were threatening his safety.

4. He FORCED entry into the school. HE was not PROVOKED.

DO you really not understand what happened here?


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> No.
> 1.He wasnt licensed for conceald carry.
> 
> 2. CCW ONLY applies to handguns NOT rifles or shotguns.
> 
> 3. I dont think the kids were threatening his safety.
> 
> 4. He FORCED entry into the school. HE was not PROVOKED.
> 
> DO you really not understand what happened here?




Youre missing the point.

There is no rationality present when one suddenly has "kill" hardwired into his thoughts.
Im discussing a solution to keeping the mentally ill from carrying out their new found "duty". 



btw: If youre going to act ignorant to my posts, dont bother answering them.


----------



## anitoli

anitoli said:


> Time i was done with you you'd never shit right again.....


 

How to get rid of Supersonic?














Threaten to give him what he really wants!


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Can you expound on this. Im missing the significance of the 80's and 90's here.



These discussions have been spawned over the recent rampage in CT (and the recent ones in VT and CO) and the proposed responses to this/these massacre(s).

Your contention that the "big picture" and its solution either proposes a solution or treatment to this "gun issue" as you framed it earlier, or it is some completely OT bit. Assuming it is on topic, you proposed the big picture issues included the protracted "War on Terror" and the banking/lending crisis. 

I countered that "with respect to the rampage issue", this phenomena has been a problem in the US long before the WOT/banking issues you outlined and thus, do not appear likely to address the rampage issue.


----------



## 2203xman

Australian said:


> Well more guns more guns. More death more death. Dont cry when death comes to your doorstep.


 


Feeling Supersonic said:


> Dude he'll be armed with a gun, ain't no one gunna harm this soldier.
> 
> Am I doing it right?


 


Australian said:


> Yeah that was spot on.
> 
> The Bill of Rights must never be changed. Nothing should be changed.


 


Feeling Supersonic;7
You've learnt well. :applause:[/QUOTE said:


> .............Jealousy!Hidden under a thin veil!


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> These discussions have been spawned over the recent rampage in CT (and the recent ones in VT and CO) and the proposed responses to this/these massacre(s).
> 
> Your contention that the "big picture" and its solution either proposes a solution or treatment to this "gun issue" as you framed it earlier, or it is some completely OT bit. Assuming it is on topic, you proposed the big picture issues included the protracted "War on Terror" and the banking/lending crisis.
> 
> I countered that "with respect to the rampage issue", this phenomena has been a problem in the US long before the WOT/banking issues you outlined and thus, do not appear likely to address the rampage issue.





Ok well maybe I should have just gotten to the point. 
What I'm saying is. The big picture is "if daddy(the President) is killing with guns" then he'd be a hypocrite to tell the children not to kill with guns.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> Youre missing the point.
> 
> There is no rationality present when one suddenly has "kill" hardwired into his thoughts.
> Im discussing a solution to keeping the mentally ill from carrying out their new found "duty".
> 
> 
> 
> btw: If youre going to act ignorant to my posts, dont bother answering them.


 
You were blurring the lines. Last resort implies self defense, not the act of an offensive assault against unarmed people.

You can never predict when someone wil lose it so to speak, but i dont think he was all that ill. There was too much planning, premeditation, testing ( thats why he went to the school to try to get in two days earlier to test the security ) to simply say that he just snapped.


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> There was too much planning, premeditation, testing ( thats why he went to the school to try to get in two days earlier to test the security ) to simply say that he just snapped.




How much of your idiocy do I have to endure?

Youre a closed book. I doubt youre even a part of society anymore.
You probably live on a remote farm and catch pheasant and quail, and read the newspaper 3 times a day.

Youre the Hunter that Dokken wrote about.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Youre missing the point.
> 
> There is no rationality present when one suddenly has "kill" hardwired into his thoughts.
> Im discussing a solution to keeping the mentally ill from carrying out their new found "duty".



The real problem here (underscored by conceding your "mental health commentary" points) is that it is unrealistic to assume there IS a practical solution to prevent the evils of the mentally ill or the violent criminal. It is a hard pill to swallow and, people insistent on a "do-something" slapdash response aren't interested in conceding this.

There is little that couldn't have been "accomplished" by these POS with AR-15s that couldn't have been accomplished with Glocks (whether sporting 17 rd or "limited" 10rd mags), or gasoline, or improvised household explosives. There have even been horrific school knife rampages in China that have been contained by the government'a control of the media.

Thus, the first practical strategy is to concede that crime and insanity cannot be removed. Then one must ask if the strategy is to address this by treating the conditions that foster crime/insanity or to remove individual liberties to make crime harder.

Apparently, "the Queen's" countries have opted to strip the people of freedom. This is not a plausible strategy in the US. With each successive generation of video game-addicted pussies, this country seems to tilt toward that unfortunate direction, however.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Ok well maybe I should have just gotten to the point.
> What I'm saying is. The big picture is "if daddy(the President) is killing with guns" then he'd be a hypocrite to tell the children not to kill with guns.



I am not sure how much of the irony your point captured that you intended.

Obama is the first US president (I am aware of at least) to perform a summary execution of an American citizen without due process of any kind.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> How much of your idiocy do I have to endure?
> 
> Youre a closed book. I doubt youre even a part of society anymore.
> You probably live on a remote farm and catch pheasant and quail, and read the newspaper 3 times a day.
> 
> Youre the Hunter that Dokken wrote about.


 
Goodnight P.O.M.E. Not wasting anymore time on your insolent, beligerent, verbal diarrhea. Go do what you do best-oppressing the Aboriginals.
Whats your term.....boong? Austrailian for nigger!


----------



## Australian

Well theres a lot of avoidance here in these threads of anything that might cause change for the better.
Well 5 people opposing change is hardly the whole demographic. 

Even a thread started by Bulldozer about gun safety was unjustly "knifed with violence".

I've probably got nothing more to say on this.


----------



## Australian

anitoli said:


> Goodnight P.O.M.E. Not wasting anymore time on your insolent, beligerent, verbal diarrhea. Go do what you do best-oppressing the Aboriginals.
> Whats your term.....boong? Austrailian for nigger!




I hope that is supposed to be Mozart in your avatar, because your politics stink.

Go and put on your dungarees and go out and shoot some quail. That might dissipate some of your anger.


----------



## Adwex

anitoli said:


> Time i was done with you you'd never shit right again.....



Alright, that's enough.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Well theres a lot of avoidance here in these threads of anything that might cause change for the better.
> Well 5 people opposing change is hardly the whole demographic.



Considering the typical participation on this thread is about 50 people, that 1/3 of them are not US citizens, and that no vociferous opposition has been mounted by any US members (other than a troll who we all can agree would simply switch positions to inflame members if the other side was advocated), and I'd say your assessment doesn't hold much merit. You may be right overall (or not) but the assumption is groundless.




> Even a thread started by Bulldozer about gun safety was unjustly "knifed with violence".



I don't recall participating there but I read a number of worthwhile points... Namely that there is an understandable indignation with those affected to invite some trend or standard to force people to assume the responsibility of additional security against unlawful entry. Again, more immaturity on your part with the puns.



> I've probably got nothing more to say on this.



Challenge accepted!


----------



## 2203xman

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOz9SpWc_yE]The Christmas Truce 1914 From Oh! What A Lovely War - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Australian

V-man said:


> Considering the typical participation on this thread is about 50 people, that 1/3 of them are not US citizens, and that no vociferous opposition has been mounted by any US members (other than a troll who we all can agree would simply switch positions to inflame members if the other side was advocated), and I'd say your assessment doesn't hold much merit. You may be right overall (or not) but the assumption is groundless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recall participating there but I read a number of worthwhile points... Namely that there is an understandable indignation with those affected to invite some trend or standard to force people to assume the responsibility of additional security against unlawful entry. Again, more immaturity on your part with the puns.
> 
> 
> 
> Challenge accepted!



Thats your opinion. You have that right to excerise the first amendment and so do I.

In a Democracy the 2nd amendment is open to change because of the existence of first amendment.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli said:


> Time i was done with you you'd never shit right again.....



hey, I'm into that kinda thing  

call me baby...


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> hey, I'm into that kinda thing
> 
> call me baby...



Be careful . He doesnt remove his gun holster and bullet belt for nothin'.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Be careful . He doesnt remove his gun holster and bullet belt for nothin'.



Man, that dude uses his gun belt for spanking and his bullet as anal beads.... 

So frustrated... I think his this gun convo has him all flustered.. [if ya know what I mean]


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Thats your opinion. You have that right to excerise the first amendment and so do I.
> 
> In a Democracy the 2nd amendment is open to change because of the existence of first amendment.



lol, what?

First of all, while our Supreme Court has ruled that our Constitutional rights apply to foreign nationals legally residing in the United States, foreign nationals have no say in our policies, and frankly no business unloading such opinons with the exceptions of mutually accepted discussion/debate.

Second, your First Amendment statement makes no sense at all. The First Amendment has no bearing on the change to the Second Amendment, at least not the way YOU intend it. The Constitution and its Bill of Rights are limitations on the Government, not the people, so people allegedly restrticting anti-gun views on private or even public fora has nothing to do with an infringement on First Amendment rights. 

There is no compulsory armament in the US (not even a draft) so there is no First Amendment activity to be found in conjunction with the change the limitation of the Second Amendment. If ANYTHING, the First Amendment protects the Second Amendment, and what you and your countrymen miss (and may experience the consequences in the future), The Second Amendment actually protects the First Amendment.


----------



## Holme




----------



## Australian

What I said was clear enough. Its there for those who dont fear to ponder.


----------



## V-man

What you said in all honesty was off point and lacked relevance. 

You have an opinion, but other than academic discussion, your opinion is useless here. I have an opinion about certain affairs in Australia. Other than academic discussion, my opinion is useless there. As such, I tend to keep my mouth shut about those countries and those policies unless/until some idiot in my country tries to use them to further a point HERE, or in a "universal debate" (i.e. "is Gun Control a worthwhile crime prevention measure"?)


----------



## Australian

If i polled America I'm 99% sure that they'll agree with me rather that you.
Theyve had enough. More guns isnt the answer anymore.

Using guns to solve problems will lead to more problems.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> If i polled America I'm 99% sure that they'll agree with me rather that you.
> Theyve had enough. More guns isnt the answer anymore.
> 
> Using guns to solve problems will lead to more problems.



Are you sure about that?


America is not NYC and LA. There is a very vocal liberal element in this country but the masses are something in between "fence-sitters" on most issues (the silent majority) and the apathetic masses. We have (and will have) tons of polls on this and similar gun issues. Suddenly the voices that show 85% of Americans in favor don't add up to the polls. 

Maybe today is different, but again if that IS the case, how does their possible agreement with your opinion make it any less wrong or (with certain points) idiotic? Bear in mind I would like to think I have entertained your points with respect to serious discussion and you have yet to advance anything knowledgable or convincing in favor of Firearms regulation in the US as a practical and successful plan in the US. "Well it worked for us" is about as you and those using the argument gets and it does not address the "Well it was tried with us and failed". You are not alone. I extend you and your "respectfully"- commenting countrymen the courtesy that they do not have a full access and understanding of our country so such confusion and assumptions on your/their part 

With respect to people commenting (and voting) here, there is no quarter for their knee-jerk reactions and fucking stupidity.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Australian said:


> If i polled America I'm 99% sure that they'll agree with me rather that you.
> Theyve had enough. More guns isnt the answer anymore.
> 
> Using guns to solve problems will lead to more problems.



With all due respect, you would be wrong

Latest poll I ran across just a few days ago still shows it split bout evenly. I also urge you (as I did with Feeling Supersonic) to research gun laws, gun related murder stats and who is the controlling party and has been for some time in Illinois. That one stat proves this is a leftist idea and its not working in Obamas home state. But go further. research all democratically held inner cities and their gun laws vs gun related crime to those of Republican strong holds. Once you view all these stats you will see that those who create "gun free zones" really create victim zones. 
Now its not my intention to turn this into a right vs left. But when you view the stats as I mentioned you will see this is a problem that the democrats created with their tougher restriction and it hasnt solved anything.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

anitoli and V-man are the most gorgeous hunks around here. That's what I'm talking about, a real man... they can shoot me with their hard, long and loaded weaponry.... they're begging to shoot their weapons in front of me.. they know I get aroused by it...


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

You guys look great in your shooting gear...


----------



## blackone

C'mon man, I like V-man, he's cool


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> C'mon man, I like V-man, he's cool



+1


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

As soon as I found out he was in the Pink Pistols group... he grew on me.


----------



## blackone

Feeling Supersonic said:


> As soon as I found out he was in the Pink Pistols group... he grew on me.



ha ha, no but actually i really do like him. It was more of a dig at that other fuck but, my guess is he couldn't quite understand the subtle use of humor


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> ha ha, no but actually i really do like him. It was more of a dig at that other fuck but, my guess is he couldn't quite understand the subtle use of humor



Oh yeah  fuck being _that_ serious about it.... it's Christmas!


----------



## blackone

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Oh yeah  fuck being _that_ serious about it.... it's Christmas!



Agreed!!!!! Merry christmas V-man, eat a shit anitoli


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

blackone said:


> Agreed!!!!! Merry christmas V-man, eat a shit anitoli



Amen!   
Merry Christmas


----------



## V-man

I'll meet you halfway with Merry Christmas to you as well. 

PS - I support Pink Pistols (in spirit) or any other group organizing for safe firearms handling and self defense


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

V-man said:


> I'll meet you halfway with Merry Christmas to you as well.
> 
> PS - I support Pink Pistols (in spirit) or any other group organizing for safe firearms handling and self defense



Right on!


----------



## Australian

I doubt theres an accurate Poll out there. 
I'll bet that pro-gunners are switching to anti-gunners by the hour. The ones on the fence will follow the Presidents lead.

Your President has stated changes and changes will happen.


----------



## Australian

Did Lonfluxenhairs post just vanish or am I on the wrong thread? 

edit: anyway my previous post was in relation to his post.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Australian said:


> Did Lonfluxenhairs post just vanish or am I on the wrong thread?



Good question


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> I doubt theres an accurate Poll out there.
> I'll bet that pro-gunners are switching to anti-gunners by the hour. The ones on the fence will follow the Presidents lead.
> 
> Your President has stated changes and changes will happen.



Trust me on this... Pro gunners do NOT change course. They may be less vociferous but there is no un-ringing that bell. It's like seeing the girl in class or at the bar and think "hey, she's cute" then she turns and in the light you see the full 5'o clock shadow and treasure trail in the light. She will always be disgusting from that point forth.


And so it was as a fence sitter. I was always into guns at some childlike non committal age. Then I got older and remembered the thought of "who 'needs' an assault rifle", etc. Finally I turned 18 and the Assault Weapons Ban loomed ahead. I may never have bought that gun or any other but I figured it was now or never and I bought Hillary, my Chinese AK named after the 1st cunt. 


After buying that rifle, developing an interest, and doing some actual research, I soon discovered the "cute girl" that was "sensible compromise on gun control" had forever became the nauseating and hideous troll that could never be embraced again.


You the anti or the fence-sitter have to take everything I say with a grain of salt over my bias, but I didn't "hatch" as a gun nut. After doing my research, I became one. And why a "gun nut"? What is it with these guys who NEVER want to compromise on the smallest and most "innocuous" details?


To the outsider the "gun nut" is an odd and unreasonable creature. For some reason often media and entertainment portray the caricature quite easily (like the SNL sketch with John Goodman duck hunting with an AK). What you have to understand is the manipulation behind the anti-gun lobby. Imagine that Mothers Against Drunk Drivers was run by the hell spawn of The View (a show chock full of useless half-celeb cunts like Rosie O'Donnel yaking about nothingness). 


You think they have a good cause that is protecting people from these horribly reckless drunk drivers. But soon, their rhetoric wears thin and the true message is revealed... These terrible people don't give a shit about drunk drivers... They are hell bent on a mission to reinact prohibition of alcohol in general. They start with the drunk drivers... Then they go after the domestic abusers and provide specious links and statistics that all this is linked to high proof alcoholic spirits like whiskey and rum. They want "reasonable restrictions" on this high-proof weapon against women and children. Then they go nuts on the "circle-K loophole" how alcohol is so easy to obtain and more sales regulations and taxes and bans MUST be enacted. Meanwhile attacks rage on about how the booze hounds must compromise and "give up something" for the sake of reasonable compromise. Before you know it, the issue has NOTHING to do with the prevention of drunk driving and everything to do with a dim-witted attempt at prohibition.


So is the analogy to the Brady center for gun violence prevention and the gun grabbing agenda, and why every fucking thing that comes out of their mouth is met with hostility. Imagine some group of idiots in your town trying to ban your favorite spirit because there has been a rash of drunk driving. Imagine a bunch of people trying to sue that brewer/distiller for every DUI. Imagine those people pushing for the banning of alcohol sales to the individual for home use because it is too easy for minors to access there, and imagine people rallying to make you criminally liable for not having a wine safe though you live alone. 

Suddenly the neutral argument you can "kind of see a little on each side"'becomes total bullshit. You demand see some actual proof that any of these measures stop drunk driving. You are called a "booze hound" and chided with the question do you really "need" high proof alcohol, and why aren't you willing to "compromise"? Irate with the emotionally-charged logically-deficient diatribe, you counter with wait a minute... What are you offering in exchange for us to give up "spirits". No answer comes forth, only a repeating that you need to "give some ground" and show you aren't a bunch of "booze hounds".


Absolutely irate now, you point out how everything they have thrown out thus far has no logical connexity or evidence of success, to which they retort that it worked like a charm in New Zealand. You then point out how there was a prohibition in this very country and that drunk driving was just as prevalent. The New Zealand quip is repeated and that "something has to be done".


Imagine yourself with an issue you actually DO give a shit about and a group of idiots march out the bodies of children and mythical beliefs in regulation to advance some shameless agenda, branding you some unreasonable idiot in the process because you won't accept this nonsensical diatribe they are trying to sell.


----------



## Australian

Well you pro-gunners are very grooved in and full of statistics and reasons, but you being amongst it all dont have the luxury of looking at it without bias.

But I can tell you that there *will* be changes. Resistance will be futile this time around.

Again, I'm not anti-gun but I am in favor of a neater gun system. From a distant vantage point it looks like its time for some tweaks and a polish.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Australian said:


> But I can tell you that there *will* be changes. Resistance will be futile this time around.
> 
> Again, I'm not anti-gun but I am in favor of a neater gun system. From a distant vantage point it looks like its time for some tweaks and a polish.



If change comes it will only be thru executive orders. Fiat "legislation". And it will be weak at best. The system does not allow the president to rule as king. Even if the current idiot thinks otherwise.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Well you pro-gunners are very grooved in and full of statistics and reasons, but you being amongst it all dont have the luxury of looking at it without bias.



As I mentioned above, many if not most of us DID have the luxury to look without bias. We then became biased when we discovered the idea of "the reasonable compromise" and the "earnest discussion of gun rights" was simply a myth to bring everybody back to the table to carve just a little more of our freedoms away. Thus, we moved from a neutral position to an inflexible one the moment we realized there was no flexibility on the other side.

After all, at a minimum... "They" want compromise, starting with Assault weapons. Thus, "they" want a federal ban on the manufacture of civilian assault weapons. Ok, and what are they willing to "give" for this compromise? In reality, the reward is temporary silence until they can cite the next tragedy.

So, here's one... For the mere sake of argument, I acting unilataterally on behalf of gun nuts offer the following:

1. So many people have problems with assault weapons and they want to stop more of them on the streets, as such in one year, we concede purchases of any new assault rifle. Thus, come the end of '13, new Assault weapons (those manufactured in 2014 on) cannot be purchased by the public, as per the '94 ban.

2. As it is illegal and unconstitutional to make legal property retroactively illegal, all the pre-'14 assault weapons will be grandfathered in as legal "pre-ban" weapons (as they were in '94). - so far nothing is gained for what was given

3. Since AWs are now banned, they are now convertable at will by the owner as transferable NFA items, meaning the legal trasferrable AWs can now be converted to legal machine guns.

See if any of the gun-grabbers would accept this or ANY other "true compromise" (this-for-that) arrangement. Never.






> But I can tell you that there *will* be changes. Resistance will be futile this time around.
> 
> Again, I'm not anti-gun but I am in favor of a neater gun system. From a distant vantage point it looks like its time for some tweaks and a polish.



Perhaps, perhaps not. The '94 ban had enough support to work, but it was political suicide and cost many legislators their jobs. Obama won but despite the fact that he earned more votes than expected, he was not a popular victor by any stretch, and all the races in the legislature were bitterly contested. This is bad ju ju for politicians. What people REALLY want is what you pointed out in the big picture. This is a very lucky distraction for politicians considering the fiscal cliff, but THAT is the REAL issue here.


----------



## Australian

No, sorry to say. This will be a point in history when something is done.

You all here can be trusted with guns- but unfortunately there is more chance than ever for someone(hell bent for destruction) to go on a shooting rampage.

And I hate to say it, but the worst is yet to come. Get ready for a new generation immune to violence to go ape shit!


----------



## V-man

You and I agree there.

Ban guns or don't. Add security or don't. Improve mental health programs or not.

There WILL be more flare ups because this is a societal problem (and sadly, there will be more idiots trying to explain crazy or worse, "solve it" with these silly measures)


----------



## Australian

God damn! What do I have to do to get a "like" on this thread?


----------



## anitoli

blackone said:


> Agreed!!!!! Merry christmas V-man, eat a shit anitoli


 
Feelings mutual. Eat shit dude, your mouths already full of it.


----------



## anitoli

Australian said:


> I doubt theres an accurate Poll out there.
> I'll bet that pro-gunners are switching to anti-gunners by the hour. The ones on the fence will follow the Presidents lead.
> 
> Your President has stated changes and changes will happen.


 
What a flagrantly bull shit assumption. All you intend here is to inflame the topic. You dont provide any relevent data. Just a cocky,smart ass, punk attitude that has to cater to the direction that you want to lead it in. You are not changing any opinions, not by a long shot.


----------



## Adwex

Australian said:


> Did Lonfluxenhairs post just vanish or am I on the wrong thread?
> 
> edit: anyway my previous post was in relation to his post.



What post? There are no recently deleted posts.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

There's been another killing, two firemen shot dead by a man with an assault rifle. 

NRA will respond by saying, 

"all volunteer fire fighters must be armed with M16s" 

You guys heard about it?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> There's been another killing, two firemen shot dead by a man with an assault rifle.
> 
> NRA will respond by saying,
> 
> "all volunteer fire fighters must be armed with M16s"
> 
> You guys heard about it?



I think after 300 post on your part in this thread. Most of which you mock many in a country you do not live in you can dedicate your time to making things in your country perfect. What started out as a thread about a horrific event has turned into a debate on the second amendment. Which was going to happen. But it has also turned into a thread where a few from other countries try to tell Americans what we should do or must do. For all those who claim Americans are arrogant need only to look at this thread and see that arrogance is not exclusive to Americans.

I am very familiar with the problems that face your country and the countries of others who have posted here. Difference is I would never be as so arrogant as to tell you what you should do to fix the problems of your country. And I would never be so arrogant as to address your political system as you and a few others have done here.

Its time you and others tend to your own problems and let us who live here deal with this politically. It is our country.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> What post? There are no recently deleted posts.



Maybe CRS nuked it?


----------



## TwinACStacks

I realize this was a terrible event, and I believe CERTAIN types of Automatic or semi-Automatic weapons that have no real world applications, other than Assault/Warfare, should be banned. But the Media HYPE over this entire event and Subject has left me TOTALLY INDIFFERENT. They have Finally milked this thing to Death, and I really can't waste any more time on this subject.

 TWIN


----------



## Adwex

longfxukxnhair said:


> Maybe CRS nuked it?



I can see if he deleted a post, and I don't see one. I didn't search every page of the (long) thread, when did you post it?

Perhaps a software glitch?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

longfxukxnhair said:


> Maybe CRS nuked it?



No, I haven't deleted anything. In fact, I've refrained from even participating in this debate, because if anyone would have their comments deleted, it would be me ... frankly, the only contribution I could make right now would be rather unpleasant for some to read ... best to bite my tongue and keep quiet.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> I can see if he deleted a posts, and I don't see one. I didn't search every page of the (long) thread, when did you post it?
> 
> Perhaps a software glitch?



I posted it yesterday. I did see it post but didnt notice it was gone til Aus mentioned it


----------



## Adwex

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, I haven't deleted anything. In fact, I've refrained from even participating in this debate, because if anyone would have their comments deleted, it would be me ... frankly, the only contribution I could make right now would be rather unpleasant for some to read ... best to bite my tongue and keep quiet.



 I've been very careful with my comments as well.


----------



## Adwex

longfxukxnhair said:


> I posted it yesterday. I did see it post but didnt notice it was gone til Aus mentioned it



I have no explanation.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> I have no explanation.



Its cool. You cant argue the reality/facts when people have their minds made up.


----------



## Adwex

Re-post it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> Re-post it.



I cant remember what I posted. It was a reply to a post. I would need to find that post again just to rattle my memory.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think after 300 post on your part in this thread. Most of which you mock many in a country you do not live in you can dedicate your time to making things in your country perfect. What started out as a thread about a horrific event has turned into a debate on the second amendment. Which was going to happen. But it has also turned into a thread where a few from other countries try to tell Americans what we should do or must do. For all those who claim Americans are arrogant need only to look at this thread and see that arrogance is not exclusive to Americans.
> 
> I am very familiar with the problems that face your country and the countries of others who have posted here. Difference is I would never be as so arrogant as to tell you what you should do to fix the problems of your country. And I would never be so arrogant as to address your political system as you and a few others have done here.
> 
> Its time you and others tend to your own problems and let us who live here deal with this politically. It is our country.



All of that was totally uncalled for dude. Settle yourself down.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> All of that was totally uncalled for dude. Settle yourself down.



I think it is totally called for. Your contempt for our country is clear. Its time you tend to your problems in YOUR country.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think it is totally called for. Your contempt for our country is clear. Its time you tend to your problems in YOUR country.



Ha, news flash - I love the US and I appreciate your views in this thread, and I even appreciate that you enjoy your founding documents, that I too respect. I think they're great. 

You just made a lot of assumptions, which are totally inaccurate and false. If I wasn't so laid back I'd have taken offense - but I am laid back. I forgive you.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Ha, news flash - I love the US and I appreciate your views in this thread, and I even appreciate that you enjoy your founding documents, that I too respect. I think they're great.
> 
> You just made a lot of assumptions, which are totally inaccurate and false. If I wasn't so laid back I'd have taken offense - but I am laid back. I forgive you.



I could maybe see your point if I was the only one who feels this way. But Im not. Maybe its time you pull back and go deal with your knife crimes and immigration problem.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> I could maybe see your point if I was the only one who feels this way. But Im not. Maybe its time you pull back and go deal with your knife crimes and immigration problem.



More uncalled for confrontational offensive abuse. I'll forgive you however.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> More uncalled for confrontational offensive abuse. I'll forgive you however.



Mine is a reply to your complete and utter arrogance. It not abuse. While I disagree with Grunch on this, I can have respect for him as he is taking part in his system. You are just mocking anothers system and I am tired of it. I do not believe you "love the U.S.". You only say it while your other words mock it and its citizens. And I dont need your forgiveness.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Mine is a reply to your complete and utter arrogance. It not abuse. While I disagree with Grunch on this, I can have respect for him as he is taking part in his system. You are just mocking anothers system and I am tired of it. I do not believe you "love the U.S.". You only say it while your other words mock it and its citizens. And I dont need your forgiveness.



You seem puzzled, because I stand by America whether you like it or not. I pardon you at this time - I forgive you for your sins.


----------



## Username2

crossroadsnyc said:


> No, I haven't deleted anything. In fact, I've refrained from even participating in this debate, because if anyone would have their comments deleted, it would be me ... frankly, the only contribution I could make right now would be rather unpleasant for some to read ... best to bite my tongue and keep quiet.



Stop worrying about what people will think, why should your opinion be kept out. I think you can separate your mod actions from your personal opinions.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> You seem puzzled, because I stand by America whether you like it or not. I pardon you at this time - I forgive you for your sins.



You are an ass


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> You are an ass



I forgive you.


----------



## 4STICKS

Shit's gettin old FS.


----------



## Username2

Perhaps this can bring some perspective as to how Americans feel when people who do not fall under our Constitution start to offer opinions on it. Piers Morgan is a CNN douche bag and has been downright insane as of late on pushing for the removal of guns. 

I do not know why, but for some stupid reason when an American hears a British accent on the news it seem to register with more credibility when in fact it really is socialist world view hoseshit he spews. 

Thousands sign US petition to deport Piers Morgan, this now requires the White House to respond. 

Hey Piers, Americans love the British people, but stay the fuck out of our laws and way of life, we don't knock cocks out of your mouth when your working so stay the fuck out of our business or we will kick your ass.

News from The Associated Press


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

4STICKS said:


> Shit's gettin old FS.



Sorry dude. I hope you forgive me.


----------



## Adwex

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Sorry dude. I hope you forgive me.



Stop forgiving us.........ass.


----------



## Jack92CH

nuke said:


> Perhaps this can bring some perspective as to how Americans feel when people who do not fall under our Constitution start to offer opinions on it. Piers Morgan is a CNN douche bag and has been downright insane as of late on pushing for the removal of guns.
> 
> I do not know why, but for some stupid reason when an American hears a British accent on the news it seem to register with more credibility when in fact it really is socialist world view hoseshit he spews.
> 
> Thousands sign US petition to deport Piers Morgan, this now requires the White House to respond.
> 
> Hey Piers, Americans love the British people, but stay the fuck out of our laws and way of life, we don't knock cocks out of your mouth when your working so stay the fuck out of our business or we will kick your ass.
> 
> News from The Associated Press



THAT is hilarious.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Adwex said:


> Stop forgiving us.........ass.



Sorry, I must repent. I beg for your forgiveness.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke, I already apologized for that bloody dickhead P. Morgan!


----------



## crossroadsnyc

nuke said:


> Stop worrying about what people will think, why should your opinion be kept out. I think you can separate your mod actions from your personal opinions.



Because I like the people w/whom I disagree on this ... and given they do not have a say in what happens in the United States anyway, I just don't feel the need to engage them on this issue. Someone living overseas can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean I have to entertain it. Hate to say it, but anyone not living in the United States, well, their opinion on our constitution holds as much water as a lettuce strainer (and they realize this, which is why we're seeing the provocation on this issue in multiple threads). Why bother, you know? Bottom line (and this is what gives me comfort in not really needing to respond to the provocation) is that the 2nd Amendment is the law of the land, and despite the huffing & puffing, it will remain the law of the land. This is what bothers the anti-2nd Amendment folks the most (and is the reason for the hysteria) .... they already know in advance that they will lose the debate.


----------



## Holme

I'll forgive this entire thread.........

































If someone sends me one of these awesome fella's!!!






God I love American 'muscle cars!'


----------



## 4STICKS

As you should, Holme!


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> As you should, Holme!



I thought somewhere along the line Ford would have blessed us with some kind of Mustang,even if it had a weedy engine!
But nope!


----------



## 4STICKS

Holme said:


> I thought somewhere along the line Ford would have blessed us with some kind of Mustang,even if it had a weedy engine!
> But nope!



"Weedy engine" That like a pussy motor?


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> I'll forgive this entire thread.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If someone sends me one of these awesome fella's!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God I love American 'muscle cars!'



The old muscle cars were much cooler. 












Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> "Weedy engine" That like a pussy motor?



Yeah we don't tend to get the large engines you do until you get onto the VERY expensive cars!
2 litre & below is the usual.
4.2 superchargers & the like are in 'super cars' usually!


----------



## Holme

Blokkadeleider said:


> The old muscle cars were much cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



That thing is just straight fuckin awesome Blok!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> That thing is just straight fuckin awesome Blok!



Yep. It's my neighbour's project.
Getting close to completion now.

Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Holme

Blokkadeleider said:


> Yep. It's my neighbour's project.
> Getting close to completion now.
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



You MUST post pics when it done,or even a video!!!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> You MUST post pics when it done,or even a video!!!



I made a vid of the engine's first run.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0j0oz60vI]1970 Cuda starting for the first time - YouTube[/ame]


Gr,

Gerrit.

*The Hengelo street gassing (I know, that is sick)


----------



## 4STICKS

Holme said:


> Yeah we don't tend to get the large engines you do until you get onto the VERY expensive cars!
> 2 litre & below is the usual.
> 4.2 superchargers & the like are in 'super cars' usually!



Holme driving his muscle car


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> Holme driving his muscle car



You're stalking me in England aren't you!!!!


----------



## 4STICKS

LMFAO!!!!!!! Made me choke in my beer, Holme!!!!!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Looks like we managed to derail and already derailed thread within 60 minutes 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## 4STICKS

Needed some humor!


----------



## 4STICKS

That really was Holme driving his car BTW. jus say'n


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Holme, do you like Top Gear?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZseBpPufLI]USA Muscle Car road trip pt 1: Drag racing in Reno - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube[/ame] 

Good episode!


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> Holme driving his muscle car



In the UK this is how all printers travel to work,clears the sinuses!!!


----------



## Holme

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Holme, do you like Top Gear?
> 
> USA Muscle Car road trip pt 1: Drag racing in Reno - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube
> 
> Good episode!



Yeah can't beat a bit of Sunday Clarkson idiocy!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Holme, do you like Top Gear?
> 
> USA Muscle Car road trip pt 1: Drag racing in Reno - Top Gear - BBC - YouTube
> 
> Good episode!



Nearly as good as the Albanian edition 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OA9mA176mA]High Speed Albanian Police Chase - Top Gear Series 16 Episode 3 - BBC Two - YouTube[/ame]


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

haha! Blok, 

Gotta love Jeremy Clarkson. I bet many here wouldn't get his sense of humour. But oh well.. glad we're all different


----------



## 4STICKS

OK. I get it, they don't sell real cars over there cause they give the cops the toy cars!!!!!!!!!

jk guys I'm gettin wazzed!!!!!!


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> OK. I get it, they don't sell real cars over there cause they give the cops the toy cars!!!!!!!!!
> 
> jk guys I'm gettin wazzed!!!!!!



4Sticks is speaking the lingo!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

"where you guys from Australia?" 

 

That casino scene always makes me laugh out loud. Classic Top Gear.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> haha! Blok,
> 
> Gotta love Jeremy Clarkson. I bet many here wouldn't get his sense of humour. But oh well.. glad we're all different



Of course. He's a conservative and not ashamed of it so he has to have a good sense of humour.
Remember that one where he drove this tiny car through the BBC offices into some green twat's lecture?


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Holme

Blokkadeleider said:


> Of course. He's a conservative and not ashamed of it so he has to have a good sense of humour.
> Remember that one where he drove this tiny car through the BBC offices into some green twat's lecture?
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Ha ha the one with no reverse,just a handle so you could turn it round!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> Ha ha the one with no reverse,just a handle so you could turn it round!



Yep, that one. "Could you give me a push please?"


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> Of course. He's a conservative and not ashamed of it so he has to have a good sense of humour.
> Remember that one where he drove this tiny car through the BBC offices into some green twat's lecture?
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Yeah  

Guys funny as .... people that complain about him are idiots.. because they don't appreciate irony. Oh well, sarcasm and irony diehard with some folk. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHJkB-wHLw]Clarkson on Americans - YouTube[/ame]

 


and people here give me a hard time..


----------



## longfxukxnhair

4STICKS said:


> Holme driving his muscle car



WTF


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Holme said:


> That thing is just straight fuckin awesome Blok!



Very fucking cool!

Are we now posting pics of our muscle cars?


----------



## Holme

longfxukxnhair said:


> Very fucking cool!
> 
> Are we now posting pics of our muscle cars?



Wish I had one to post a picture of LH!
If you've got one though I'd love to see it!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Holme said:


> Wish I had one to post a picture of LH!
> If you've got one though I'd love to see it!


----------



## Holme

longfxukxnhair said:


>



They're awesome LH!!!
If I ever end up moving to America I'd HAVE to get one!
AWESOME!!!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

longfxukxnhair said:


> Very fucking cool!
> 
> Are we now posting pics of our muscle cars?



Why not. Guns, cars, bikes, Marshalls. Seems like a good combo to me 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Holme said:


> They're awesome LH!!!
> If I ever end up moving to America I'd HAVE to get one!
> AWESOME!!!



Thank you bro. They are fun. Especially one one of those Tokyo Drift big ass muffler pipe piece of shits pull up next to me.


----------



## Holme

longfxukxnhair said:


> Thank you bro. They are fun. Especially one one of those Tokyo Drift big ass muffler pipe piece of shits pull up next to me.



You can get them imported over here but the £££ they charge & the waiting time for parts usually means they're more for well off people using them as a hobby car sooner than a main car.
Shame really I'd love one!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Holme said:


> You can get them imported over here but the £££ they charge & the waiting time for parts usually means they're more for well off people using them as a hobby car sooner than a main car.
> Shame really I'd love one!



and the fuel bill would _blow yo fucking mind! _


----------



## 4STICKS

Holme said:


> You can get them imported over here but the £££ they charge & the waiting time for parts usually means they're more for well off people using them as a hobby car sooner than a main car.
> Shame really I'd love one!




Where the fux do you see that LLL thingy on your keyboard??????


----------



## Blokkadeleider

4STICKS said:


> Where the fux do you see that LLL thingy on your keyboard??????



These? £££££££££? 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> Where the fux do you see that LLL thingy on your keyboard??????



What the £££


----------



## Holme

Blokkadeleider said:


> These? £££££££££?
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



Hey Blok have you got them too?
£££££££££££££££££££££££££££


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Holme said:


> Hey Blok have you got them too?
> £££££££££££££££££££££££££££



Of course I do.
US American KB layout with Dutch as input language.
It can throw out any character with ease. 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## 4STICKS

Holme said:


> Hey Blok have you got them too?
> £££££££££££££££££££££££££££



Where is Scat???? I think that's some kind of secret society symbolism!!!!


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> Where is Scat???? I think that's some kind of secret society symbolism!!!!



£££₩₩₩€€€$$$¢¢¢¥¥¥


----------



## Blokkadeleider

4STICKS said:


> Where is Scat???? I think that's some kind of secret society symbolism!!!!





Well. What symbolism?


Gr,

Gerrit.

*


----------



## 4STICKS

Holme said:


> £££₩₩₩€€€$$$¢¢¢¥¥¥



Get thee behind me, Satan!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Holme

4STICKS said:


> Get thee behind me, Satan!!!!!!!!!



Feed them to the villagers!!!


----------



## Thumpalumpacus

Hold down the "Alt" key. While it is down, type 0163.

£

If you look in accessories/system tools, you'll find a character map with all those neat things on it.


----------



## 4STICKS

Thumpalumpacus said:


> Hold down the "Alt" key. While it is down, type 0163.
> 
> £
> 
> If you look in accessories/system tools, you'll find a character map with all those neat things on it.



Really. Really dude!!!!!


----------



## Username2

Ironically when it comes to muscle cars I prefer German cars, my wife has a Mercedes SL55. while its a chick car it does have some serious power to it.

When I visited England I never seen any big American pickups anywhere. I loves me some American HEMI muscle, here is my truck. 













And if that isn't enough gas in one day you can throw down this American 5.7HO for the afternoon on the water. 



















But some of the best American muscle is the perfect rumble of a 96cu/in Milwaukee born Harley Davidson.


----------



## Holme

nuke said:


> Ironically when it comes to muscle cars I prefer German cars, my wife has a Mercedes SL55. while its a chick car it does have some serious power to it.
> 
> When I visited England I never seen any big American pickups anywhere. I loves me some American HEMI muscle, here is my truck.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if that isn't enough gas in one day you can throw down this American 5.7HO for the afternoon on the water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But some of the best American muscle is the perfect rumble of a Milwaukee born Harley Davidson.



Whoa they're all ace Nuke!
That pick up trucks a monster I love it!


----------



## Username2

I love when people in their clown cars look in their rear view mirror in see this on there ass. Of course after I pass them they think twice about throwing me the dirty finger when they see a couple of shotguns hanging in the back window. 







Lot of room in these which is very American.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

We got a Jap import.


----------



## Holme

That is a beast!


----------



## Username2

But do you have a big ghetto 15' sub-woofer in the trunk? What is that... some Mitsubishi?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

nuke said:


> But do you have a big ghetto 15' sub-woofer in the trunk? What is that... some Mitsubishi?



1995 Toyota Supra. 3ltr twin turbo. 
Hella quick!


----------



## Thumpalumpacus

4STICKS said:


> Really. Really dude!!!!!



I'm sorry, I didn't mean to inflict pain and distress upon you. Merry Christmas?


----------



## anitoli

Blokkadeleider said:


> The old muscle cars were much cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.


 
Man i love the Mopars!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

anitoli said:


> Is that yours? Man i love the Mopars!



Nah, it's my neighbours.


Gr,

Gerrit.

*I'm not car crazy enough for something like that.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokk, what is it? -sounds very English, Plymouth?

EDIT: 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Blokk, what is it? -sounds very English, Plymouth?



A 1970 Plymouth Barracuda.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Apparently plymouth [automobiles] takes its name from when pilgrims colonised the US from England. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_(automobile)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(1590-.m1657) 

From that guy from Yorkshire  

Plymouth Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

named after that rock. 

an important symbol of American history. 

Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Love history.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

So the English colonised the US in [The colony, established] in 1620, Plymouth anyway, 69 years before the Bill of rights was written. 

I guess by that time the settlers had children, and their children had children and by that time they deemed themselves 'American'? 

fascinating.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Apparently plymouth [automobiles] takes its name from when pilgrims colonised the US from England.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_(automobile)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bradford_(1590-.m1657)
> 
> From that guy from Yorkshire
> 
> Plymouth Rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> named after that rock.
> 
> an important symbol of American history.
> 
> Pilgrims (Plymouth Colony) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Love history.



The Pilgrim Fathers...
They came through Leiden

It is the only place in Holland where I have ancestors and they lived there already back in that time.
They must have seen them.


Gr,

Gerrit.

*_They were probably relieved to see those scumbags leave _


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> The Pilgrim Fathers...
> They came through Leiden
> 
> It is the only place in Holland where I have ancestors and they lived there already back in that time.
> They must have seen them.
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.
> 
> *_They were probably relieved to see those scumbags leave _



 

Sorry to get back to the nitty gritty.. 

_These ideas about rights reflected those of the political thinker John Locke and they quickly became popular in England. It also sets out—or, in the view of its drafters, restates—certain constitutional requirements of the Crown to seek the consent of the people, as represented in Parliament.
_

John Locke is awesome. 

haha, great reasons to leave that blasted place. 

_The Netherlands was, however, a land whose culture and language were strange and difficult for the English congregation to understand or learn. They found the Dutch morals much too libertine. Their children were becoming more and more Dutch as the years passed by. _

Too libertine... yeah right. 1 a person, esp. a man, who behaves without moral principles or a sense of responsibility, esp. in sexual matters.

Incest!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Sorry to get back to the nitty gritty..
> 
> _These ideas about rights reflected those of the political thinker John Locke and they quickly became popular in England. It also sets out—or, in the view of its drafters, restates—certain constitutional requirements of the Crown to seek the consent of the people, as represented in Parliament.
> _
> 
> John Locke is awesome.
> 
> haha, great reasons to leave that blasted place.
> 
> _The Netherlands was, however, a land whose culture and language were strange and difficult for the English congregation to understand or learn. They found the Dutch morals much too libertine. Their children were becoming more and more Dutch as the years passed by. _
> 
> Too libertine... yeah right. 1 a person, esp. a man, who behaves without moral principles or a sense of responsibility, esp. in sexual matters.
> 
> Incest!



It must be said that especially Leiden was a place of very loose morals.
Not so much the higher classes.
The lower classes however, of which the Pilgrims as foreigners where a part, did not care about sex before marriage with whomever. In fact they didn't give a flying fuck about marriage at all. No qualms about having multiple partners. 
Leiden in the 1600's and 1700's was a boiling cauldron of sin even to our modern-day standards.


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

I would like to add:

Leiden was then what Bangkok is now 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Blokkadeleider said:


> I would like to add:
> 
> Leiden was then what Bangkok is now
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

_"Bangkok has him now" _


----------



## Australian

Holme said:


> I'll forgive this entire thread.........
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If someone sends me one of these awesome fella's!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God I love American 'muscle cars!'





Thats exactly what I want! 

Today I saw a couple about 70 years old driving a showroom condition 65 Mustang.

 My Mustang Gas is back!


----------



## Australian

Adwex said:


> I can see if he deleted a post, and I don't see one. I didn't search every page of the (long) thread, when did you post it?
> 
> Perhaps a software glitch?





I must have been a glitch. Its happened to a few others too. I remember Holme saying some of his posts disappeared.


----------



## Username2

Australian said:


> Thats exactly what I want!
> 
> Today I saw a couple about 70 years old driving a showroom condition 65 Mustang.
> 
> My Mustang Gas is back!



The new Ford Shelby GT1000 is the new badass. 

There are two Shelby 1000 models for 2013. The first is the "street" version, cranking out 950 hp and smog-legal in all 50 states. 

The other powerful new Shelby is called the 1000 S/C, and it's built primarily as a track car. The much-warmed-over 5.4-liter four-cam V8 in this one is good for 1,100 horses. Price 100k, not bad. 


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DvMfs9jBm0"]SEMA 2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT1000 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Blokkadeleider

nuke said:


> The new Ford Shelby GT1000 is the new badass.
> 
> There are two Shelby 1000 models for 2013. The first is the "street" version, cranking out 950 hp and smog-legal in all 50 states.
> 
> The other powerful new Shelby is called the 1000 S/C, and it's built primarily as a track car. The much-warmed-over 5.4-liter four-cam V8 in this one is good for 1,100 horses. Price 100k, not bad.
> 
> 
> SEMA 2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT1000 - YouTube



Bloody hell. 
What a machine!


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Holme

nuke said:


> The new Ford Shelby GT1000 is the new badass.
> 
> There are two Shelby 1000 models for 2013. The first is the "street" version, cranking out 950 hp and smog-legal in all 50 states.
> 
> The other powerful new Shelby is called the 1000 S/C, and it's built primarily as a track car. The much-warmed-over 5.4-liter four-cam V8 in this one is good for 1,100 horses. Price 100k, not bad.
> 
> 
> SEMA 2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT1000 - YouTube




Merry Christmas gang!
Been on it since 8am & Lynne's Dad pulling out some 100 proof Jamaican Rum hasn't helped matters!
I believe Lynne's sisters husbands passed out!
Fanny!

Anyways back to business-

Nuke that car is f@@king unbelievable.....just hope my lottery numbers come up!


----------



## Username2

Holme said:


> Anyways back to business-
> 
> Nuke that car is f@@king unbelievable.....just hope my lottery numbers come up!



That would look good spinning doughnuts in from of Buckingham Palace.


----------



## Holme

nuke said:


> That would look good spinning doughnuts in from of Buckingham Palace.



I'd love one mate I think they're amazing!


----------



## Söulcaster

Damn I love Mustangs...,,,bewdiful cars posted up guys...


----------



## blackone

nuke said:


> The new Ford Shelby GT1000 is the new badass.
> 
> There are two Shelby 1000 models for 2013. The first is the "street" version, cranking out 950 hp and smog-legal in all 50 states.
> 
> The other powerful new Shelby is called the 1000 S/C, and it's built primarily as a track car. The much-warmed-over 5.4-liter four-cam V8 in this one is good for 1,100 horses. Price 100k, not bad.
> 
> 
> SEMA 2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT1000 - YouTube



I've been testing 2012/13 gt 500 shelbys for nearly a year now. As is typical and historical for ford, the advertised power rating is ASTRONOMICALLY larger than the real output, 500 donkeys maybe, but 500 horsepower? get fucked Henry, lying cunt! Maybe this new 1000 is closer to 500 horsepower.


----------



## Australian

nuke said:


> The new Ford Shelby GT1000 is the new badass.
> 
> There are two Shelby 1000 models for 2013. The first is the "street" version, cranking out 950 hp and smog-legal in all 50 states.
> 
> The other powerful new Shelby is called the 1000 S/C, and it's built primarily as a track car. The much-warmed-over 5.4-liter four-cam V8 in this one is good for 1,100 horses. Price 100k, not bad.
> 
> 
> SEMA 2012 Ford Mustang Shelby GT1000 - YouTube




The r/h drive Shelbys's here are $150,000. I think thats too much. That pust them in the Ferrari price range.


----------



## Alt Freak

I haven't been in this thread for about the last 300 or so replies but how the hell did this turn into a car thread??????????? Not to stop you guys though...


----------



## vintagevoltage351

RIP little ones...


again!


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> Damn I love Mustangs...,,,bewdiful cars posted up guys...


 
Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14)


----------



## diesect20022000

vintagevoltage351 said:


> RIP little ones...
> 
> 
> again!


 THIS.


the rest should have been left alone but i understand. our gov won't leave the rest alone either.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

vintagevoltage351 said:


> RIP little ones...
> 
> 
> again!



R.I.P to the adult teachers murdered as well.


----------



## Australian

Lets hope that the President offers free penis enlargements as a gun buy back initiative. Maybe even breast enlargements for the 'ladies.'
And last but not least free transgender operations for the folk down in LA.
Then open up Vaudeville to the public.


It was easy to see that in this thread anxiety about not losing ones guns overshadowed the tradgedy itself.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> It was easy to see that in this thread anxiety about not losing ones guns overshadowed the tradgedy itself.



When a school massacre happens, the NRA actually use it as a ramp.. they even visit the state in which it has happened and have a rally. 

That explains the increase in gun sales - partly anyway. 

This one perhaps because of Christmas too, and 6% of Americans buy loved ones firearms. 

I was just reading about how the US wrote the Japanese constitution too. 
Rule 1/amendment etc: no citizen can own firearms or swords. 

They didn't want the Japanese having an armed populous. However, they only have between 0 - 10 firearm deaths a year. Pretty good going. 

Just saying.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Australian said:


> It was easy to see that in this thread anxiety about not losing ones guns overshadowed the tradgedy itself.



Thats because the United States is about the individual and not the collective. Thats why our rights are individual and inalienable. But, there is room for new amendments. The politicians dont want to have that conversation because they know they will lose. So they will try to back door this. That in itself is wrong. The people need to be allowed to dictate this course. Not the politicians. 

I agree, this event and events like it are tragic and horrific. What is even more sad than that is politicians who want to use it to disarm this country. How many lives were given to "preserve or liberties"? Isnt that what the American people were told when our men and women went to war? I understand you and others in other countries are not born with such rights so you have a different view just by way of birth place. If you were born in America and born with these rights you may feel differently. You may not. One thing is for sure, we will never know that.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

*fear!*


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

I'd just like to dedicate this song to anyone that has indignant remarks without thought, ramblings without intellectualism and actions without prudence. 

To the victims of gun crime. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjFPM-9u80E]Home Alone Soundtrack - O Holy Night - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Feeling Supersonic said:


> *fear!*



Thats cute bitch. Its pussified bitches like you who use fear to push your bullshit pacifist views.

Did you solve all the problems in your country yet? Like I said from the start, you dont get a vote. All you can do is talk and thats probably all you can do anyway.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

longfxukxnhair said:


> Thats cute bitch. Its pussified bitches like you who use fear to push your bullshit pacifist views.



Firstly I think your inaccurate here, however I forgive you for being aggressive, I accept it's very much part of your demeanor here. Each to their own I guess. I like to keep a bit of respect and decency for the members I converse with. I understand this isn't universal however. 



longfxukxnhair said:


> Did you solve all the problems in your country yet?



No, but I think it's healthy to talk about it, even if I'm powerless to change my country. I won't ignore social issues, in any case I think it's an important discussion to have. I think also I'll stick by my liking of Plato and his idea; "The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." 
— Plato



longfxukxnhair said:


> All you can do is talk and thats probably all you can do anyway.



Well, I'd like to say likewise to you too. I don't want to burst any bubbles but you're just human cattle in the US, just as I am in the UK and everyone else in the world that is a seemingly average individual. I presume neither of us are millionaires/billionaires or Royalty. 

If you think the amendments are anything to go by, see what the US did to the Japanese living in the US in 1942. I think it was called the 'Japanese American internment' - anyway I digress... what my point is, is that your rights are not rights.. they are just made up from thin air by the people in charge of you, and as such they are 'privileges' and can be taken away at anytime your government feels like it. Look what happened to the Japanese in the US, 60% of them were born in the US and treated like cattle - those 'rights' they had ... are the 'rights' you have.... don't be under any illusions.. 

I think fear is a very important benchmark to this issue of armed citizens. It's a word that encompasses your news media which seems to be so influential. 

I have 100% respect to the US and individuals that like to have a healthy and decent discussion about it. I don't for nationalism so much, worldwide topics is a cool thing to me though.. and I see plenty of US guys [even on this forum, I have evidence] commenting on other such countries as 'North Korea' .. and they have loads of stuff to say about their systems, laws, cultures etc. 

I'm a citizen of the world, and I'm not a nationalist fundamentalist in conversation either. Learning is the aim of the game. 

Thanks.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Lets hope that the President offers free penis enlargements as a gun buy back initiative.


----------



## V-man

Australian said:


> Lets hope that the President offers free penis enlargements as a gun buy back initiative. Maybe even breast enlargements for the 'ladies.'
> And last but not least free transgender operations for the folk down in LA.
> Then open up Vaudeville to the public.




As I have mentioned offsite:

If this retarded mythology had any accuracy (guns owners compensating for something else) then it would stand to reason that in the face of this long-standing misconception, that those with inadequacies about their penises would in fact shy away from guns to "prove they weren't one of those guys". Coupling this point with the observation that the "anti" opposition is obsessed with bringing penis into the equation and it appears you have a rather suspect "finger" pointing back at the "anti" crowd. I believe Freud would say that those so-phallically obsessed feel victimized by their personal inadequacy, and wish to symbolically "castrate" other men to level the playing field in their minds.... that "doth protest too much" bit, no doubt. 




> It was easy to see that in this thread anxiety about not losing ones guns overshadowed the tradgedy itself.



I seem to recall a lot of talk about Mustangs overshadowing the tragedy as well. It's not exactly surprising. The media Circus that darkened the world's doorstep didn't do this on the "merits of tragedy" in mind, nor was this discussion (and even if the OP indignantly refutes this, he would have been here long enough to know this wouldn't be a thread with 28 "RIP" posts before it went to the bottom).


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Am I the only one that thinks this thread was a really good one? - despite the tragedy, I think it's been a great thread. Just saying. Even though about 60 members have me on ignore and I've turned pretty much every US member against me. Oh well. Such comments will always go down like a shit sandwich.


----------



## diesect20022000

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Am I the only one that thinks this thread was a really good one? - despite the tragedy, I think it's been a great thread. Just saying. Even though about 60 members have me on ignore and I've turned pretty much every US member against me. Oh well. Such comments will always go down like a shit sandwich.


it's certainly brought some attention via numbers to the forum.

if by "good" you mean in the vain of beiber like draw and poor taste then yes..


i'm not against you. i may not agree with all your policies but i don't agree with anyone all of the time let alone online.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

diesect20022000 said:


> it's certainly brought some attention via numbers to the forum.
> 
> if by "good" you mean in the vain of beiber like draw and poor taste then yes..
> 
> 
> i'm not against you. i may not agree with all your policies but i don't agree with anyone all of the time let alone online.



I don't have policies or anything of the sort.. 
Some members here total overreacted though in this thread. I think they're too highly strung and narrow minded.


----------



## diesect20022000

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I don't have policies or anything of the sort..
> Some members here total overreacted though in this thread. I think they're too highly strung and narrow minded.


 some people are very passionate i'll say that.

okay policies was perhaps the wrong word. opinions may be more apt but again i haven't been upset by anything you or anyone else has posted here. i don't agree with some of it but that's about the extent of my passion really.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

What if they just insulting eveyone's intelligence by making it seem like this is going towards more gun control, but in reality they want the most guns sold possible? 

In other words, the complete opposite of what a lot think: Even MORE americans “armed to the teeth” being the goal. I don't want to elaborate on WHY anyone would want that, first of all because I don't have the answer, and because I guess it can be obvious (for some), but I would prefer that each think on their on hypothesis or interpretation. 

There is already too much paranoia in the atmosphere, so fuck it. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


----------



## diesect20022000

SmokeyDopey said:


> What if they just insulting eveyone's intelligence by making it seem like this is going towards more gun control, but in reality they want the most guns sold possible?
> 
> In other words, the complete opposite of what a lot think: Even MORE americans “armed to the teeth” being the goal. I don't want to elaborate on WHY anyone would want that, first of all because I don't have the answer, and because I guess it can be obvious (for some), but I would prefer that each think on their on hypothesis or interpretation.
> 
> There is already too much paranoia in the atmosphere, so fuck it. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


 that's certainly an interesting proposal


----------



## V-man

If anybody is interested in looking at this issue seriously, I suggest you watch "Murder by Proxy", a documentary streaming on Netflix. Interestingly enough, they were able to delve into the nature of this phenomenon without so much as a remark about guns.


----------



## Australian

Heres the conspiracy "more guns, the world is dangerous, theyre all out to get you". Signed head madman of the NRA.

Scat was right all along . J2112c owes him an apology.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Am I the only one that thinks this thread was a really good one? - despite the tragedy, I think it's been a great thread. Just saying. Even though about 60 members have me on ignore and I've turned pretty much every US member against me. Oh well. Such comments will always go down like a shit sandwich.



Where theres a problem as big as this it shows that there is an inability to face a problem by the country.
Thats why they are blaming you.

"Ignore the problem and it will go away" they say. Alas! it has multiplied , and only a few dare to look at it, or acknowledge its existence.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

_Even though about 60 members have me on ignore....

_That could be a MF record!
Shame FS. Your a very smart kid, but you can really stuff it all up... by being a smart ass. _
_


----------



## Australian

vintagevoltage351 said:


> _Even though about 60 members have me on ignore....
> 
> _That could be a MF record!
> Shame FS. Your a very smart kid, but you can really stuff it all up... by being a smart ass. _
> _




Do we know he's a kid for sure? Or do we just assume that because he still lives with his parents?


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Dunno man, mummy issues maybe?


----------



## Söulcaster

anitoli said:


> Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14)



I don't understand the relevance of your post(I'll assume it's more anti-Australian envy) so I'll just post a picture of Michael Diamond winning gold at Atlanta....


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

diesect20022000 said:


> some people are very passionate i'll say that.
> 
> okay policies was perhaps the wrong word. opinions may be more apt but again i haven't been upset by anything you or anyone else has posted here. i don't agree with some of it but that's about the extent of my passion really.



You have a great temperament! you set a good example.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Where theres a problem as big as this it shows that there is an inability to face a problem by the country.
> Thats why they are blaming you.
> 
> "Ignore the problem and it will go away" they say. Alas! it has multiplied , and only a few dare to look at it, or acknowledge its existence.



Many don't like non-Americans talking about America. 
I've learnt that much! 

Oh well, maybe they'll forgive me in time. I hope none of them hold grudges.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

vintagevoltage351 said:


> _Even though about 60 members have me on ignore....
> 
> _That could be a MF record!
> Shame FS. Your a very smart kid, but you can really stuff it all up... by being a smart ass. _
> _



I just don't take politics that seriously, especially online, I just enjoy it. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter - it's just jabbering discourse, opinions and debate. People have taken this gun control debate extremely personally however. It seems I'll be treading on egg shells from now on.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Do we know he's a kid for sure? Or do we just assume that because he still lives with his parents?



I graduated from University last year. For now I'm enjoying living practically rent free with my mum and dad whilst I learn to drive. I'm at a very much 'in between' stage in my life. Hence I have a lot of free time to shoot the shit on forums. 

It'll all change in 2013 however - these times don't last forever. I'll be moving on to new things and the internet will probably fall by the wayside.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Many don't like non-Americans talking about America.
> I've learnt that much!
> 
> Oh well, maybe they'll forgive me in time. I hope none of them hold grudges.





Thats one of the greatest lessons in life. Hey I think you even pissed off your mate Smokey, and he has similar views to yours.

I think you have forgiven enough people already. 

But all in all I would like a world without killing and guns needed as a safety tool, but that desired state of affairs is not even close.
In a new generation when pigs like Clammy and Anitoli have passed on to Hades, there will then be a chance for this planet.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Thats one of the greatest lessons in life. Hey I think you even pissed off your mate Smokey, and he has similar views to yours.
> 
> I think you have forgiven enough people already.



I'm just that person, I forgive people easily and also don't mind apologising if I've angered someone, but here it seems it's irreversible and members hold grudges. I think it's pretty infantile, but nonetheless, each to their own ways. I for one don't care. 

People treat their opinions like royal feathers that must not be tarnished! 
For me, it's as if each has a bag of opinions in the form of rocks, and these rocks must be bought out into the light and smashed together with other's opinions too.. to create heat [which creates light].... sparks can fly... I like that. A good debate is when you let go - 

These precious feathers happen to not only be their opinions, but their country too... which I find totally weird. How one cannot distance themselves from their country and talk about things with regard to a 'nation' and not 'family' as you would... I just find that a bit primitive and sort of primate like. 

Anyway... I'm digging myself a hole here now... 


I might just find another forum - and forget talking about blasted guns.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> Where we at with this dumb thread?



I've been lynched and become a hate figure. 

I feel like Grunch.


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> I'm just that person, I forgive people easily and also don't mind apologising if I've angered someone, but here it seems it's irreversible and members hold grudges. I think it's pretty infantile, but nonetheless, each to their own ways. I for one don't care.
> 
> People treat their opinions like royal feathers that must not be tarnished!
> For me, it's as if each has a bag of opinions in the form of rocks, and these rocks must be bought out into the light and smashed together with other's opinions too.. to create heat [which creates light].... sparks can fly... I like that. A good debate is when you let go -
> 
> These precious feathers happen to not only be their opinions, but their country too... which I find totally weird. How one cannot distance themselves from their country and talk about things with regard to a 'nation' and not 'family' as you would... I just find that a bit primitive and sort of primate like.
> 
> Anyway... I'm digging myself a hole here now...
> 
> 
> I might just find another forum - and forget talking about blasted guns.




I'm preety sure they hated you anyway. Youre a hateful type of guy. So dont worry about it. 

I have to be honest. I wont miss seeing that horror head in your avatar if you go.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> I'm preety sure they hated you anyway. Youre a hateful type of guy. So dont worry about it.
> 
> I have to be honest. I wont miss seeing that horror head in your avatar if you go.



  

Yeah - the internetz is serious business for a lot of folk. I personally think it's just a bit of a circus, albeit I do hold some regard for it in a sincere fashion. 

I miscalculated how humble some members are - 

Ayn Rand is a pretty rational thinker, the reason why I have her as an avatar, is because when I post I sort of think about how she'd approach things. She was an objectivist however... some people have difficulty dealing with the perception of reality though, and that is in essence is a great virtue. 

She also loved the US, like I do, and like me was not born there. She was Russian but a US citizen though.. Christopher Hitchens is another hero of mine, again.. not born in the US but born in England like myself, but a US citizen also. 

I take inspiration from those two, and many others, for almost being internationalists. Reason, logic, truth etc. is not exclusive to ones country, but it's a universal virtue of every human being and therefore is transferable throughout the world's people and every country, and therefore should not be abandoned to accommodate people's naive and emotional attachments to their government and countries. 

I find the whole thing fascinating. The whole 'nationalism' thing, and how people bring that identify of theirs into cyber-reality .. 

I don't know how anyone can be free that way - shackled to one nation, no matter what!, one country, one set of rules, one language, one culture... and then defend it to the death.. jabbering online and becoming hostile.. 

Maybe that cloak of delusion will droop enough one day so their eyes see that there's more to the discussion than merely lampooning and scapegoating individuals opinions with a brandishing of a flag flying tirade about nationalism - when they don't realise how much irony is held in that point of view..


----------



## Australian

Wow since Nuke started that doggy thread, no one comes here anymore. 
Cant half tell he's a Mod. Those sidetracking skills.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Wow since Nuke started that doggy thread, no one comes here anymore.
> Cant half tell he's a Mod. Those sidetracking skills.



Well a member told me, PMs are going on amongst many members about certain other members ... 

Read back in this thread for the winks and hints...


----------



## Australian

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well a member told me, PMs are going on amongst many members about certain other members ...
> 
> Read back in this thread for the winks and hints...




Well thats just ladies in the sauna bitching about their husbands.

I like the fact that people are backstabbing in pm land. It gives the Forum a real life feel.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Australian said:


> Well thats just ladies in the sauna bitching about their husbands.
> 
> I like the fact that people are backstabbing in pm land. It gives the Forum a real life feel.



 

Yeah, I can imagine it's a real drama at the moment amongst the Christian gun owners here. Calling for bans and punishments no doubt.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> That's what they do. And now my posts are getting deleted.



 

I just quoted your post in another thread, by the time I'd responded with the quote, it was deleted! 

Big Brother sorting things out.


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> That's what they do. And now my posts are getting deleted.



The next step will be that a big hand will break through your computer and tear out your larynx. beware.


----------



## Australian

Grunch said:


> That's okay, I'm locked and loaded and have my bible. I'll blow that hand away in the name of God and country. Fuck yeah!





I admit I LMFAO at that!


----------



## Grunch

The crybabies have spoken. I'm no longer allowed to have an opinion on guns or moronic gun mentality or I will be banned.


----------



## Australian

I quoted you so that means my post has to go too. :eek2:


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Ah, deleted before I could appreciate it.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> The crybabies have spoken. I'm no longer allowed to have an opinion on guns or moronic gun mentality or I will be banned.



 

Maybe a copy and pasted PM is coming my way too.


----------



## Grunch

Australian said:


> I quoted you so that means my post has to go too. :eek2:



Not a problem. crossroadsnyc is on the case. He's the defender of freedom.....as long as you think exactly as he and his cronies do.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> The crybabies have spoken. I'm no longer allowed to have an opinion on guns or moronic gun mentality or I will be banned.



You are allowed to have an opinion ... but your trolling for a fight days are finished. You can grow up, or get the fuck out.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> You are allowed to have an opinion ... but your trolling for a fight days are finished. You can grow up, or get the fuck out.



Oh say can you see......


----------



## Söulcaster

crossroadsnyc said:


> You are allowed to have an opinion ... but your trolling for a fight days are finished. You can grow up, or get the fuck out.



Ouch, things suddenly got serious.


----------



## Söulcaster

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Well a member told me, PMs are going on amongst many members about certain other members ...
> 
> Read back in this thread for the winks and hints...



Just ignore the schoolgirl tactics,,,...PM bandits are working overtime lmfao,,,!


----------



## Grunch

Söulcaster said:


> Ouch, things suddenly got serious.



The internet is serious business at marshallforum. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, PM's start to fly, and the wagons start to circle. Lock and load!


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> The internet is serious business at marshallforum. Feelings get hurt, tempers flare, PM's start to fly, and the wagons start to circle. Lock and load!



That's not accurate, Grunch. I disagree with probably 80% of this thread, but that doesn't mean I want to stomp on anybody's right to voice their opinion by deleting what they have to say (nor have i). You dislike guns? Dislike the 2nd Amendment? That's just fine ... I couldn't care less ... in fact, I'd like to read why ... but you don't need to insinuate anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of barbaric, cave dwelling, lunatic, who's sitting in a dark room praying for some kind of confrontation. You're an intelligent guy, and given you've done it before, I'm quite certain you can make an argument w/out infuriating people.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> That's not accurate, Grunch. I disagree with probably 80% of this thread, but that doesn't mean I want to stomp on anybody's right to voice their opinion by deleting what they have to say (nor have i). You dislike guns? Dislike the 2nd Amendment? That's just fine ... I couldn't care less ... in fact, I'd like to read why ... but you don't need to insinuate anyone who disagrees with you is some kind of barbaric, cave dwelling, lunatic, who's sitting in a dark room praying for some kind of confrontation. You're an intelligent guy, and given you've done it before, I'm quite certain you can make an argument w/out infuriating people.



Fair enough, but going by the actions and reactions of my "opponents" in here, I'd say I hit the nail right on the head. The freedom loving gun hardasses are the ones screaming and crying to shut me and a few others up. One gun nut even went as far as to call a gun opponent a coward for not having a gun. How hilariously ironic is that?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Fair enough, but going by the actions and reactions of my "opponents" in here, I'd say I hit the nail right on the head. The freedom loving gun hardasses are the ones screaming and crying to shut me and a few others up. One gun nut even went as far as to call a gun opponent a coward for not having a gun. How hilariously ironic is that?



Nobody wants to shut you up ... this thread is @ 62 pages, so it's a debate people seem to enjoy having. For what it's worth, if you ever found yourself in a jam, I'm pretty sure your 'opponents' would grab their guns and help you out in the blink of an eye.


----------



## Grunch

crossroadsnyc said:


> Nobody wants to shut you up ... this thread is @ 62 pages, so it's a debate people seem to enjoy having. For what it's worth, if you ever found yourself in a jam, I'm pretty sure your 'opponents' would grab their guns and help you out in the blink of an eye.



Lol. That's because they can't wait to blast someone, something, or both. 

With friends like them, who needs enemies?


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Grunch said:


> Lol. That's because they can't wait to blast someone, something, or both.
> 
> With friends like them, who needs enemies?



Yup, I pretty much put the ball on the "t" for you there!


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> Lol. That's because they can't wait to blast someone, something, or both.
> 
> With friends like them, who needs enemies?



You need a donk!
Oh wait. You are a drummer. You are the Donk! 


Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Söulcaster

.


----------



## blues_n_cues

in case you missed this story- 
Human remains found at home of gunman who ambushed firefighters - U.S. News

it's not the gun-it's the nutcase that's the problem.this bastard was just hell bent & never should have left prison in the first place.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> Fair enough, but going by the actions and reactions of my "opponents" in here, I'd say I hit the nail right on the head. The freedom loving gun hardasses are the ones screaming and crying to shut me and a few others up. One gun nut even went as far as to call a gun opponent a coward for not having a gun. How hilariously ironic is that?



Nobody is buying that crap, Grunch.

Your suggestion that you have "opponents" here is laughable. having an "opponent" suggests you actually have an actual viewpoint and an argument in support of it. You have spouted nothing but inflammatory aspersions, and then reactive quips from those who have responded to you. You had in no way argued a viewpoint. You advanced nothing more than your typical troll campaign, probing on nerves to get a reaction to feed your childish desire to provoke others, and I am absolutely certain that somewhere else in the internet you were logged into some other cite trolling some other community with an anti-gun majority with the exact opposite viewpoint.

It's not the "opposition" against you and some like-minded dissenters here regarding this issue. You don't get pulled aside and get a talking-to by the mod(s) here for imparting the "painful truth to the unbelievers". You do OTOH for being a trollsome pest, and everybody involved with this site for any appreciable length of time is aware (mostly from your public announcements) that you have had multiple encounters with the mods for this.


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> Nobody is buying that crap, Grunch.
> 
> Your suggestion that you have "opponents" here is laughable. having an "opponent" suggests you actually have an actual viewpoint and an argument in support of it. You have spouted nothing but inflammatory aspersions, and then reactive quips from those who have responded to you. You had in no way argued a viewpoint. You advanced nothing more than your typical troll campaign, probing on nerves to get a reaction to feed your childish desire to provoke others, and I am absolutely certain that somewhere else in the internet you were logged into some other cite trolling some other community with an anti-gun majority with the exact opposite viewpoint.
> 
> It's not the "opposition" against you and some like-minded dissenters here regarding this issue. You don't get pulled aside and get a talking-to by the mod(s) here for imparting the "painful truth to the unbelievers". You do OTOH for being a trollsome pest, and everybody involved with this site for any appreciable length of time is aware (mostly from your public announcements) that you have had multiple encounters with the mods for this.



Case in point ^^^^^^^

Blah, blah, blah. Like a broken fucking record. Big bad tough gun guy doesn't have a valid point. He just wants to silence those that disagree with him. Typical behavior from these cowards. Hide behind the mods, hide behind mass numbers, hide behind a gun, hide behind the constituion. Just hide, period.


----------



## JayCM800

...hiding! Behind a computer monitor! Easiest thing in the world


----------



## V-man

JayCM800 said:


> ...hiding! Behind a computer monitor! Easiest thing in the world



very droll, but trolls do not understand irony.


----------



## Grunch

JayCM800 said:


> ...hiding! Behind a computer monitor! Easiest thing in the world


That's essentially what we're all doing. Unless of course your birth name is actually "JayCM800".


----------



## Grunch

V-man said:


> very droll, but trolls do not understand irony.



Someone bump this broken record so it will stop skipping.


----------



## Grunch

If not revealing personal info on the internet to a bunch of crazed, rabid, gun nuts is a fault, then I'm okay with that.


----------



## V-man

Grunch said:


> That's essentially what we're all doing. Unless of course your birth name is actually "JayCM800".



So in effect you have unwittingly (go figure) acknowledge your own commentary as worthless, as making some inflammatory quip about hiding behind a computer (then acknowledging WE ALL do) illustrates the uselessness of your input other than to troll

And to further the point...

you take the position I have no valid point and go on like a broken record here.

How about we take my "contributions" to this thread in terms of advancing a valid point and sincere argument and we take yours... are you willing to put up or shut up and wager a permaban over which of us is the broken record with no valid point?


----------



## Grunch

Ban..troll...ban...troll....skip....skip....skip....if I put a penny on your head, will you move on? Why are you so scared that you want people that disagree with you banned?

Here's what I said:

Hide behind the mods, hide behind mass numbers, hide behind a gun, hide behind the constituion

Nowhere did I mention a computer.


----------



## Alt Freak

Gun supporters saying Grunch doesn't have a valid point, Grunch saying gun supporters don't have a valid point. It's never ending


----------



## DirtySteve

The pot calling the kettle black.


----------



## Grunch

Alt Freak said:


> Gun supporters saying Grunch doesn't have a valid point, Grunch saying gun supporters don't have a valid point. It's never ending



For the record, my point is not against guns per se, it's against the mindless redneck Rambo mentality that commonly goes along with gun ownership.


----------



## Grunch

DirtySteve said:


> The pot calling the kettle black.



Lol. You're like that little runt dog that pals around with the bigger dog on those old looney toons cartoons.


----------



## JayCM800

Grunch said:


> That's essentially what we're all doing. Unless of course your birth name is actually "JayCM800".



Hmm... Now that you mention it, I think that would be awesome! Thanks for the suggestion I'll consider legally changing my name to Mr. JCM800 F. Stack!


----------



## Grunch

JayCM800 said:


> Hmm... Now that you mention it, I think that would be awesome! Thanks for the suggestion I'll consider legally changing my name to Mr. JCM800 F. Stack!



Cool.


----------



## DirtySteve

Grunch said:


> Lol. You're like that little runt dog that pals around with the bigger dog on those old looney toons cartoons.



No I'm not agreeing with anyone here, but I have been following along though and you're the broken record. Everyone else is trying to carry on a conversation and you just keep saying the same fucking things, but you offer nothing to the debate and every time you're called on it you cry foul and everyone's against you and ganging up. 

That's because people that have been here for a while have shared experiences and let others know where they're coming from and what they like and have formed a kind of comradery. You're just here to contradict and stir up shit. You're annoying and you have no desire to be friends or try to get to know anyone. We are all just people here with things in common and most of us see each other as just that. You seem to be on a mission to disrupt and pester. Your like a fucking mosquito!


----------



## JayCM800

Grunch said:


> Cool.



Why am I talking to you if I have you on ignore? 
 Season's Greetings to you, man!


----------



## Grunch

JayCM800 said:


> Why am I talking to you if I have you on ignore?
> Season's Greetings to you, man!


You too. I wish you all the best in 2013.


----------



## Grunch

DirtySteve said:


> No I'm not agreeing with anyone here, but I have been following along though and your the broken record. Everyone else is trying to carry on a conversation and you just keep saying the same fucking things, but you offer nothing to the debate and every time your called on it you cry foul and everyone's against you and ganging up.
> 
> That's because people that have been here for a while have shared experiences and let others know where there coming from and what they like and have formed a kind of comradery. Your just here to contradict and stir up shit. Your annoying and you have no desire to be friends or try to get to know anyone. We are all just people here with things in common and most of us see each other as just that. You seem to be on a mission to disrupt and pester. Your like a fucking mosquito!



C'mon spike, let's go beat up a cat now!

Good job falling in lock-step with your buddies. You're a cheerleader. Being an individual isn't for everyone.


----------



## Adwex

DirtySteve said:


> .... You seem to be on a mission to disrupt and pester. Your like a fucking mosquito!



THIS is the only thing I have a problem with, not his opinions.


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> THIS is the only thing I have a problem with, not his opinions.



Fair enough, but that's not my mission. I have no mission. I just don't think I should have to sit on my thoughts and ideas just because they don't jive with the overly vocal majority. It's awesomely ironic that the people that supposedly will die for the constitution want to shut me up so bad that they'll cry to have me banned. freedom of speech is great, as long as you say what they want to hear, and don't hurt their feelings on the internet.


----------



## diesect20022000

people can dissagree without being assholes or breaking forum rules 

but everyone do what they like.


----------



## Adwex

Grunch said:


> Fair enough, but that's not my mission. I have no mission. I just don't think I should have to sit on my thoughts and ideas just because they don't jive with the overly vocal majority. It's awesomely ironic that the people that supposedly will die for the constitution want to shut me up so bad that they'll cry to have me banned.



Again, it's not your thoughts and ideas, it's your delivery, and insults.


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> Again, it's not your thoughts and ideas, it's your delivery, and insults.



I'm not personally attacking anyone.


----------



## blues_n_cues

well the guy has already called all of us pro-2nd amendment people big mac loving,redneck,gun loving,Rambo wannabe,jesus freaks..


----------



## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> well the guy has already called all of us pro-2nd amendment people big mac loving,redneck,gun loving,Rambo wannabe,jesus freaks..



I never said "jesus freaks". The rest is how I view some gun people, yes. not all, but some. Probably most. They're just words, if they bother you, there must be some truth there. I've touched on something that you don't like about yourself, maybe? I don't know, I didn't take much psychology in college.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> I'm not personally attacking anyone.



I think calling anyone who clings to the 2nd amendment "white trash" and "domestic terrorist" is attacking. But you cant admit that you did that.


----------



## Adwex

blues_n_cues said:


> well the guy has already called all of us pro-2nd amendment people big mac loving,redneck,gun loving,Rambo wannabe,jesus freaks..



Well, that is the current caricature of American society.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Adwex said:


> Well, that is the current caricature of American society.



according to the voting public I see it's the pro gay dope loving slacker who wants everything handed to him/her.
let me edit that- the majority national voting public-not this state for sure.


----------



## diesect20022000

Adwex said:


> Well, that is the current caricature of American society.


 no big macs or Jesus for me sorry  

i'm not opposed to sushi and sub machine guns though


----------



## Adwex

blues_n_cues said:


> according to the voting public I see it's the pro gay dope loving slacker who wants everything handed to him/her.



Yeah, that too. Evenly split.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think calling anyone who clings to the 2nd amendment "white trash" and "domestic terrorist" is attacking. But you cant admit that you did that.



That's not an attack. That's really how I view some people. I think some gun hoarder types are domestic terrorists. You're planning on fighting the big bad government one day, right? Surely you don't need all that weaponry for "home/personal protection".


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> That's not an attack. That's really how I view some people. I think some gun hoarder types are domestic terrorists. You're planning on fighting the big bad government one day, right? Surely you don't need all that weaponry for "home/personal protection".



I have 2 guns. Both are .45's. Is that a stock pile? Is that to many guns?

While you may view some people like that, when you launch those words in a debate that we are part of, you are using those words to attack.


----------



## blues_n_cues

well it's funny how youtube deems this may be offensive & inappropriate to some viewers so you have to click to continue...
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql49eLRRJ_E&bpctr=1356823949]Lynyrd Skynyrd - God and Guns - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Adwex

blues_n_cues said:


> well it's funny how youtube deems this may be offensive & inappropriate to some viewers so you have to click to continue...
> Lynyrd Skynyrd - God and Guns - YouTube



Don't get me wrong, I like Skynyrd, but it doesn't get any more redneck.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> I have 2 guns. Both are .45's. Is that a stock pile? Is that to many guns?



Nope, not in my opinion. I also never said "longfxukxnhair is a domestic terrorist". You getting offended on others' behalf is sweet, but totally unnecessary.


----------



## Grunch

Adwex said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like Skynyrd, but it doesn't get anymore redneck.



Right? God and guns? Are you fucking kidding me?


----------



## blues_n_cues

Adwex said:


> Don't get me wrong, I like Skynyrd, but it doesn't get anymore redneck.



it's the point that that can be offensive yet you can watch fat chicks dancing in their undies,people slapped w/ fish,Blackie vids(lol),& people openly smoking dope..but those don't get a warning..:eek2:

and that song was MEANT to be redneck & get a response.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> While you may view some people like that, when you launch those words in a debate that we are part of, you are using those words to attack.



It's no different than you calling me a liberal or anti-american or whatever nonsense you said earlier. So fine, I'm anti-american because you say so. Now what? What are you gonna do?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Nope, not in my opinion. I also never said "longfxukxnhair is a domestic terrorist". You getting offended on others' behalf is sweet, but totally unnecessary.



Then when you make such statements I guess you better direct them to the person you intend to attack or maybe not use them at all. If you want to call me a pussy, then do it. Direct it at me. If you want to claim all who own guns are pussies or domestic terrorist without being specific then you run the risk of offending those you dont intend to offend. But you and I had this conversation already.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Then when you make such statements I guess you better direct them to the person you intend to attack or maybe not use them at all. If you want to call me a pussy, then do it. Direct it at me. If you want to claim all who own guns are pussies or domestic terrorist without being specific then you run the risk of offending those you dont intend to offend. But you and I had this conversation already.



Again, they're not an attack, so I don't need to direct them at anyone. If you get insulted by something I say that's not specifically directed at you, ask yourself why.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> It's no different than you calling me a liberal or anti-american or whatever nonsense you said earlier. So fine, I'm anti-american because you say so. Now what? What are you gonna do?



Nothing I can do. I did call you anti-america. But I did direct it at you. Theres no hiding from what I said. I have no reason to hide from it. But Im not sure if I called you a liberal. I dont think I did. 

When I was younger and worked in the music industry I was very liberal. I didnt believe in guns and never wanted to own one. But I never thought that the 2nd amendment needed to be done away with. Thats as ridiculous as me saying you must own a gun because of the 2nd amendment.
Because I didnt believe in them didnt mean others should give up their rights. I dont believe guns are the worlds problem. I have said early on that the problem is man. Thats recorded throughout history. If its not guns then it will be rocks. Outlaw rocks and it will be sticks. Outlaw stick and it will be......... The problem isnt guns. Its man. Gun legislation is only a bandaid for the real problem. 

This is where I am at. I do not trust my govt. I dont trust any govt. Power corrupts. A few who want to tell the many what to do. Based on what they feel is right. But what is right for them may not be right for me or you. Lets say all guns are turned over and destroyed. Now the people who have power (because they control the military/police) have complete control. What if things are as I believe? What if this govt (under any president) does what I fear? We will never get the guns back. They will be free to do as they wish (which they do now on some level) and we would be powerless to stop them. All I need to do is look at history to see I have no reason to trust govt. Staged false flags, corruption and such are all I need to know. The American govt doesnt even present us with the real reason for the wars the wage. Hell, they even killed one sitting president. No reason for me to trust them.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Again, they're not an attack, so I don't need to direct them at anyone. If you get insulted by something I say that's not specifically directed at you, ask yourself why.



Its because you make such blanket statements. You are calling those who believe in the 2nd amendment domestic terrorist. I believe in the 2nd so by your statement I am a domestic terrorist. Pretty simple. Thats an attack. Like I said, you cant admit that.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Its because you make such blanket statements. You are calling those who believe in the 2nd amendment domestic terrorist. I believe in the 2nd so by your statement I am a domestic terrorist. Pretty simple. Thats an attack. Like I said, you cant admit that.


You've got it wrong, but whatever. I'm tired of explaining it to you. If you personally feel attacked by something that wasn't directly addressed to you, then there must be some truth to whatever I said.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Nothing I can do. .


Cool, so try to get over it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> You've got it wrong, but whatever. I'm tired of explaining it to you. If you personally feel attacked by something that wasn't directly addressed to you, then there must be some truth to whatever I said.



Or you made such a blanket statement because that is how you feel about those of us who believe in the second. Your statement is an attack and you dont have the guts to even admit it. You are trying to explain it away. Deflect. Make it look like it is me who has the problem. When it is you who makes the statement. And for an obvious reason. 

1) I am not white trash
2) I am not a domestic terrorist
3) I believe in all of the amendments including the 2nd. And because I do I am not as you said, white trash or a domestic terrorist.

Once again, you made the statement.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> 1) I am not white trash
> 2) I am not a domestic terrorist
> 3) I believe in all of the amendments including the 2nd. And because I do I am not as you said, white trash or a domestic terrorist.
> .



I never said you specifically were. And round and round we go. Again, it's noble to take the bullet for your peers, but really unnecessary.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> I never said you specifically were. And round and round we go. Again, it's noble to take the bullet for your peers, but really unnecessary.



Yes, you did. Why cant you admit it? Your claim that gun lovers are white trash mentality and domestic terrorist. That is what you said. Yes, you never called me out by name. I will give you that much. But addressing gun owners/gun lovers/gun nuts lumps me into your blanket statement. Since I am a gun owner/gun lover. I am pro 2nd amendment.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Yes, you never called me out by name. .


Hey, you're almost there. Well done.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Grunch said:


> Hey, you're almost there. Well done.



Its you is refusing to get it. I made it very clear how you did address me.


----------



## Grunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Its you is refusing to get it. I made it very clear how you did address me.




Yeah you said this:

"Yes, you never called me out by name"

Thanks for stopping by.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Holy shit dude!


----------



## Grunch

Piers Morgan: If America Doesn’t Change Gun Laws, I’d ‘Seriously Consider Deporting Myself’ | Mediaite

Lol. This is funny to me. Some dumb limey demands america change it's gun laws or he's gonna leave?


----------



## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> Piers Morgan: If America Doesn’t Change Gun Laws, I’d ‘Seriously Consider Deporting Myself’ | Mediaite
> 
> Lol. This is funny to me. Some dumb limey demands america change it's gun laws or he's gonna leave?



BYE...


----------



## Grunch

blues_n_cues said:


> BYE...



Right? I'm no flag-waver gun loon, but please, get the fuck out already.


----------



## blues_n_cues

I would have said take Peter Jennings w/ him but that resident alien loudmouth work-permit squatter died off before Toby put a boot in his Canadian ass..


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> Piers Morgan: If America Doesn’t Change Gun Laws, I’d ‘Seriously Consider Deporting Myself’ | Mediaite
> 
> Lol. This is funny to me. Some dumb limey demands america change it's gun laws or he's gonna leave?



Funny huh? Foreigners come to a country and then demand it to be changed to what they had at home.

On the other hand a bit further in the article is this link: 

New Petition Surfaces To Keep Piers Morgan In The USA



> There are two other stated reasons: “The first amendment,” and angering Americans for comic value.




Gr,

Gerrit.


----------



## Grunch

Blokkadeleider said:


> Funny huh? Foreigners come to a country and then demand it to be changed to what they had at home.
> 
> On the other hand a bit further in the article is this link:
> 
> New Petition Surfaces To Keep Piers Morgan In The USA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.



I honestly don't care if he stays or goes. I'm not really a love-it-or-leave-it kind of guy. I just thought it was funny that a TV personality that has no use whatsoever is making demands like this.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> I honestly don't care if he stays or goes. I'm not really a love-it-or-leave-it kind of guy. I just thought it was funny that a TV personality that has no use whatsoever is making demands like this.



I just realize that the US is populated by mostly foreigners so that isn't really an argument and so anyone can say anything there! 


Gr,

Gerrit.

*Now I'll go film the local carbide cannon and I'll be back when the storm is over


----------



## Grunch

Blokkadeleider said:


> I just realize that the US is populated by mostly foreigners so that isn't really an argument and so anyone can say anything there!
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.
> 
> *Now I'll go film the local carbide cannon and I'll be back when the storm is over



We're all foreigners here. Except for the indians. Feather indians, not the dot indians.


----------



## Blokkadeleider

Grunch said:


> We're all foreigners here. Except for the indians. Feather indians, not the dot indians.



That's what I meant 


Gr,

Gerrit.

*And too many immigrants can be a cause of unrest


----------



## Grunch

Blokkadeleider said:


> That's what I meant
> 
> 
> Gr,
> 
> Gerrit.
> 
> *And too many immigrants can be a cause of unrest



Immigrants built this country into the mess it's in now.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Grunch said:


> We're all foreigners here. Except for the indians. Feather indians, not the dot indians.



even they walked across from Russia. the only freakin' native here is the turkey & see how that's worked out for him....


----------



## anitoli

Söulcaster said:


> I don't understand the relevance of your post(I'll assume it's more anti-Australian envy) so I'll just post a picture of Michael Diamond winning gold at Atlanta....


 
Doesnt surprise me that you dont. While drooling over a Mustang i point out a huge regulatory document relating to specifics on what you can and cant do to modify a vehicle in your country. I dont envy anyone who has to have their government tell them what type of camshaft is acceptable under the law.......no envy at all.


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> I dont envy anyone who has to have their government tell them what type of camshaft is acceptable under the law.......no envy at all.



The US government does that very thing in many areas of the country. You can put any cam you want into your engine, and then when it fails the emissions test, you won't be able to legally drive the car.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> The US government does that very thing in many areas of the country. You can put any cam you want into your engine, and then when it fails the emissions test, you won't be able to legally drive the car.



What the hell is an emissions test? Must be something enforced in libtard cities were libtards rule and live. Hey Grunch, one of my diesel pickups is chipped out and can blow enough black smoke to kill a Prius. Never been emission tested. 

Environmentalism is a mental disorder. Its done to generate money.


----------



## Username2

..


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> What the hell is an emissions test? Must be something enforced in libtard cities were libtards rule and live. Hey Grunch, one of my diesel pickups is chipped out and can blow enough black smoke to kill a Prius. Never been emission tested.
> 
> Environmentalism is a mental disorder. Its done to generate money.



I don't disagree. That wasn't my point though. Emissions testing is done in major cities on gasoline vehicles. It's a money-making scheme by the federal government designed to appear as if they care about clean air. Meanwhile, diesels, such as your truck, are exempt for some reason. anitoli's bashing of some other country's laws against automotive modifications when our own country has the same laws is hypocritical. That was my point.

And let me ask you something with all sincerity....why are you proud of a diesel that belches black smoke?


----------



## Username2

Because in all sincerity I get off on pissing liberals off. You see Grunch those people always want to tell you how to live, what to do, what to think ect. 

So since they insist on not minding their own buisness stomping on the pedal and leaving a big cloud of black smoke for them makes my day. Also the power gains can be impressive. My cummings runs 
:460hp and 800 + ft/lbs torque


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> The US government does that very thing in many areas of the country. You can put any cam you want into your engine, and then when it fails the emissions test, you won't be able to legally drive the car.


 
Easy work arounds: 

Dont live in a smog state.

Get a car made before emission laws/ real muscle cars are exempt. 

Set carburation real lean=pass test.

Not to many people do this with many late model cars, its usually the older ones with the decent engines.


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> I don't disagree. That wasn't my point though. Emissions testing is done in major cities on gasoline vehicles. It's a money-making scheme by the federal government designed to appear as if they care about clean air. Meanwhile, diesels, such as your truck, are exempt for some reason. anitoli's bashing of some other country's laws against automotive modifications when our own country has the same laws is hypocritical. That was my point.
> 
> And let me ask you something with all sincerity....why are you proud of a diesel that belches black smoke?


 
No it's not hypocritical. American smog laws are only valid in certain few jurisdictions, they dont apply to the whole country like the Aussie laws. I can suff any cam i want into my mopar in Maine and thay wont have a clue.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Environmetalism is a mental disorder? Nuke, I see your point about "libtards" making money off it, but comon man. The world is your home. Is your home a dump? Do you like to live in shit, garbage, and in a cloud of black smoke?

I'm not saying to go hug a tree either, but at least give half a shit about the environment. It's not about you, it's about where you're grandchildren/great grandchildren will be living. I guess you don't give a shit about your family's generations to come.

Do you throw garbage on the ground, too?


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Because in all sincerity I get off on pissing liberals off. You see Grunch those people always want to tell you how to live, what to do, what to think ect.
> 
> So since they insist on not minding their own buisness stomping on the pedal and leaving a big cloud of black smoke for them makes my day. Also the power gains can be impressive. My cummings runs
> :460hp and 800 + ft/lbs torque



I see. So I was right all along.


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> Easy work arounds:
> 
> Dont live in a smog state.
> 
> Get a car made before emission laws/ real muscle cars are exempt.
> 
> Set carburation real lean=pass test.
> 
> Not to many people do this with many late model cars, its usually the older ones with the decent engines.



A carburetor running lean will fail an emissions test as well. So yeah, nice try though.


----------



## Grunch

SmokeyDopey said:


> Environmetalism is a mental disorder? Nuke, I see your point about "libtards" making money off it, but comon man. The world is your home. Is your home a dump? Do you like to live in shit, garbage, and in a cloud of black smoke?
> 
> I'm not saying to go hug a tree either, but at least give half a shit about the environment. It's not about you, it's about where you're grandchildren/great grandchildren will be living. I guess you don't give a shit about your family's generations to come.
> 
> Do you throw garbage on the ground, too?



Welcome to the american mentality. They make my points for me.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> I'm not personally attacking anyone.





> Grunch C'mon spike, let's go beat up a cat now!



Really? I suppose that was your version of polite conversation?


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> Really? I suppose that was your version of polite conversation?



You're really reaching now. It was a cartoon reference.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

SmokeyDopey said:


> Environmetalism is a mental disorder? Nuke, I see your point about "libtards" making money off it, but comon man. The world is your home. Is your home a dump? Do you like to live in shit, garbage, and in a cloud of black smoke?
> 
> I'm not saying to go hug a tree either, but at least give half a shit about the environment. It's not about you, it's about where you're grandchildren/great grandchildren will be living. I guess you don't give a shit about your family's generations to come.
> 
> Do you throw garbage on the ground, too?



I think Nuke is disgusted with the way the Libs/progressives are using environmentalism as a means to make money thru forced regulations and greater control over people. A carbon tax does not solve the problem. Its a trading scheme. I dont believe he has anything against those who want to help to clean up the planet. In an honest effort.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Grunch said:


> You're really reaching now. It was a cartoon reference.



No reaching involved, only reading your response at face value and how it was applied.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think Nuke is disgusted with the way the Libs/progressives are using environmentalism as a means to make money thru forced regulations and greater control over people. A carbon tax does not solve the problem. Its a trading scheme. I dont believe he has anything against those who want to help to clean up the planet. In an honest effort.


 
It didn't really sound like it when he said he gets a kick out of blasting black smoke.

But I get why he said what he said. Caring is for pussies, right nuke?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

SmokeyDopey said:


> It didn't really sound like it when he said he gets a kick out of blasting black smoke.
> 
> But I get why he said what he said. Caring is for pussies, right nuke?



I get where he is coming from. Everytime I pass a Prius/smart car I wave and say thx. Because their car off sets what my Challenger RT does. But I do other positive things for the environment. 

Its just more of a joke than anything. With the car that is


----------



## SmokeyDopey

I'll admit, I'm guilty of flicking cigarrettes. When I remember I keep it in a little plastic bag and throw it out when there's a trash can, but sometimes, without even realizing it I just flick it. I'm so fucking use to it I don't realize I'm doing it. 

The difference is I don't say that it is a mental disorder to be aware of the damage one can cause. It's the sum of all us idiots that fucks it up, not just 1 guy. And luckily there are many people with this "mental disorder", otherwise I can't even imagine in the kind of dump we would be living in.

Well, we're getting a little off topic, so I'll leave it there.


----------



## blues_n_cues

SmokeyDopey said:


> Environmetalism is a mental disorder? Nuke, I see your point about "libtards" making money off it, but comon man. The world is your home. Is your home a dump? Do you like to live in shit, garbage, and in a cloud of black smoke?
> 
> I'm not saying to go hug a tree either, but at least give half a shit about the environment. It's not about you, it's about where you're grandchildren/great grandchildren will be living. I guess you don't give a shit about your family's generations to come.
> 
> Do you throw garbage on the ground, too?



I found this kind of funny-the countries in green participate in the Kyoto Protocol yet are some of the worst polluters.
List of parties to the Kyoto Protocol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Username2

Acutually I am a clean freak.

We all demand clean air and water, I want people to pickup their crap and companys not to infringe on shared resources. My point was environmentalists know nothing of conservation and how to safely use resources, they act on assumpions, emotion, and believe agenda driven science.

Mental Disorder


----------



## Grunch

Marshall Mann said:


> No reaching involved, only reading your response at face value and how it was applied.



So me saying "let's go beat up a cat", in reference to a funny cartoon, struck you as an egregious breach of etiquette? Did you actually think that I was genuinely suggesting that we literally beat up a cat?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

blues_n_cues said:


> I found this kind of funny-the countries in green participate in the Kyoto Protocol yet are some of the worst polluters.
> List of parties to the Kyoto Protocol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Thats not even the half of it. The do as I say and not as I do mentality from the biggest pushers of the green movement is absolutely fuck ridiculous.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> My point was environmentalists know nothing of conservation and how to safely use resources,



Yeah, definitely not like the good americans that "chip" their overweight american diesels and gladly blow smoke everywhere.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

nuke said:


> ...they act on assumpions, emotion, and agenda driven science.


 
*ahem*
Sure... Like they are the only ones, right? 
I would like to provide some other examples but I would be breaking the code of conduct and get my post deleted. 


I know a lot of "clean freaks" that are pigs when it comes to environment. Their house/apartment is so clean you can have open heart surgery safely, but what ever is outside the home: "fuck it".

In California if you flick a cig butt on certain highways you can get up to a $1,000 fine. That seems outrageous! But the highway is spik n' fuckin span. It would be great if people would be that careful but because of their own merit, not of fear of getting fined. 

The world and resources are finite, but we're treating it as if it were unlimited. Eventually it will blow up in our faces or it will get to a point where it's too late. I hope we haven't reached that point of no return.


----------



## blues_n_cues

longfxukxnhair said:


> Thats not even the half of it. The do as I say and not as I do mentality from the biggest pushers of the green movement is absolutely fuck ridiculous.



well you knew it was fucked up from right where it says U.N.

how we got here from the school shoo..... Squirrel..


----------



## Adwex

SmokeyDopey said:


> ...
> In California if you flick a cig butt on certain highways you can get up to a $1,000 fine. That seems outrageous! But the highway is spik n' fuckin span. It would be great if people would be that careful but because of their own merit, not of fear of getting fined.
> 
> ....



I'm pretty sure that's due to the risk of wildfires, not necessarily for littering.


----------



## Username2

Grunch said:


> Yeah, definitely not like the good americans that "chip" their overweight american diesels and gladly blow smoke everywhere.



Hey Grunch, I don't knock cocks out of your mouth when your working, get a clue man. Out of 10 million sperms I have no idea how you swam the fastest, a miricle of God I tell you.


----------



## Grunch

nuke said:


> Hey Grunch, I don't knock cocks out of your mouth when your working, get a clue man. Out of 10 million sperms I have no idea how you swam the fastest, a miricle of God I tell you.





Do you say your prayers with that mouth?


----------



## Username2

SmokeyDopey said:


> *ahem*
> Sure... Like they are the only ones, right?
> I would like to provide some other examples but I would be breaking the code of conduct and get my post deleted.
> 
> 
> I know a lot of "clean freaks" that are pigs when it comes to environment. Their house/apartment is so clean you can have open heart surgery safely, but what ever is outside the home: "fuck it".
> 
> In California if you flick a cig butt on certain highways you can get up to a $1,000 fine. That seems outrageous! But the highway is spik n' fuckin span. It would be great if people would be that careful but because of their own merit, not of fear of getting fined.
> 
> The world and resources are finite, but we're treating it as if it were unlimited. Eventually it will blow up in our faces or it will get to a point where it's too late. I hope we haven't reached that point of no return.



The weed your smoking right now has you over thinking shit, adjust your THC dose. Couple of good points though


----------



## Adwex

nuke said:


> Hey Grunch, I don't knock cocks out of your mouth when your working, get a clue man. Out of 10 million sperms I have no idea how you swam the fastest, a miricle of God I tell you.



Out of line.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

nuke said:


> The weed your smoking right now has you over thinking shit, adjust your THC dose. Couple of good points though


 
heh heh of course, blame it on the weed.
I'm not smoking, by the way (at the moment). But thanks for the tip 

Have you ever stopped to consider maybe _you_ are _under_thinking things?


----------



## Grunch

SmokeyDopey said:


> heh heh of course, blame it on the weed.



You could accuse him of huffing diesel smoke. 

I'd call it a draw.


----------



## diesect20022000

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylp5iKDFe10]Madness is like Gravity - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLezXLuvNgc]Joker Clap - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Holme

Grunch said:


> Piers Morgan: If America Doesn’t Change Gun Laws, I’d ‘Seriously Consider Deporting Myself’ | Mediaite
> 
> Lol. This is funny to me. Some dumb limey demands america change it's gun laws or he's gonna leave?





We'll make bazooka's a legal requirement for you to keep him!
He's not very popular to say the least!


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> A carburetor running lean will fail an emissions test as well. So yeah, nice try though.


 
What was the year of the oldest car you ever owned?


----------



## diesect20022000

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXpcYvnV6GY[/ame]


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> What was the year of the oldest car you ever owned?



1964. Still have it. Had two 1966 models too. I'm not gonna get too specific, but let me warn you here and now that you will not fare well with this new direction you're gonna try to take with me.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Maybe we can give it all a rest for the rest of the year?


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> 1964. Still have it. Had two 1966 models too. I'm not gonna get too specific, but let me warn you here and now that you will not fare well with this new direction you're gonna try to take with me.


 

I call BS. Make, model , please.


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> I call BS. Make, model , please.



It's a new year bud. I've already made my points, and have had them made for me in many cases. If you want to talk cars, PM me. If you want to desperately argue more, just keep it to yourself. Peace. Happy new year.


----------



## anitoli

Grunch said:


> It's a new year bud. I've already made my points, and have had them made for me in many cases. If you want to talk cars, PM me. If you want to desperately argue more, just keep it to yourself. Peace. Happy new year.


 
Wasnt attempting to argue, was curious what you had for wheels. Mid 60's cars are hard to come by. Thats all.


----------



## Grunch

anitoli said:


> Wasnt attempting to argue, was curious what you had for wheels. Mid 60's cars are hard to come by. Thats all.



Okay, no prob. I don't like to reveal personal info and you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway.


----------



## Alt Freak

LOL. Bullshit! You don't have an old car! I demand for you to tell me what kind it is!


----------



## Grunch

Yeah, demands always worked on me before.


----------



## Adwex

Alt Freak said:


> LOL. Bullshit! You don't have an old car! I demand for you to tell me what kind it is!



Why would he lie?


----------



## Alt Freak

Adwex said:


> Why would he lie?


Exactly, he's got nothing to prove to anyone here


----------



## Adwex

Alt Freak said:


> Exactly, he's got nothing to prove to anyone here



Which would mean that he's probably not lying. I guess a better question would be ...why wouldn't you believe him?


----------



## Alt Freak

Adwex said:


> Which would mean that he's probably not lying. I guess a better question would be ...why wouldn't you believe him?


 I don't think you understand. I'm not the one saying I don't believe him or calling bullshit. I was sarcastically imitating someone else. I should have used quotations.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Bloody hell, a sense of humour and irony is a real disappearing virtue around here lately.


----------



## Adwex

My bad, I missed the joke.


----------



## blues_n_cues

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Bloody hell, a sense of humour and irony is a real disappearing virtue around here lately.



nah,it's lackanookie I think...


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Bloody hell, a sense of humour and irony is a real disappearing virtue around here lately.



But they love jeff foxworthy.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Grunch said:


> But they love jeff foxworthy.



 just checked him out....

oh-freakin-dear.....


----------



## Grunch

Feeling Supersonic said:


> just checked him out....
> 
> oh-freakin-dear.....



Yeah, he's the skynyrd of american comedy. :barf:


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

rootin-tootin! 

 

Must say, I've used that term a bunch over Christmas and it is funny! Gets funnier when drunk.. 

Also, 'Fag ash lil' 

English slang for a woman that smokes a lot...


----------



## yladrd61

anitoli said:


> Ylard misses the point totally. In order to beat your opponent it is advantagous to know how he thinks.



That is exactly the point I was making


----------



## diesect20022000

oh good god fuck foxworthy....what an unfunny hobo clownshoe twat he is.....


----------



## Marshall Mann

yladrd61 said:


> That is exactly the point I was making



Ylard! 

Did you catch up with the rest of the thread? 












































Please post a current comment to confirm that you have.


----------



## Australian

Am I the only one getting necro-likes from yladrd61.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Australian said:


> Am I the only one getting necro-likes from yladrd61.



Um, no. 

It's the necro-responses that are driving me nuts.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Feeling Supersonic said:


> Hello derp!



Hey man, what's up?


----------



## yladrd61

SmokeyDopey said:


> Environmetalism is a mental disorder? Nuke, I see your point about "libtards" making money off it, but comon man. The world is your home. Is your home a dump? Do you like to live in shit, garbage, and in a cloud of black smoke?
> 
> I'm not saying to go hug a tree either, but at least give half a shit about the environment. It's not about you, it's about where you're grandchildren/great grandchildren will be living. I guess you don't give a shit about your family's generations to come.
> 
> Do you throw garbage on the ground, too?[/QUOT
> 
> Leave the trees out of this


----------



## yladrd61

nuke said:


> Acutually I am a clean freak.
> 
> We all demand clean air and water, I want people to pickup their crap and companys not to infringe on shared resources. My point was environmentalists know nothing of conservation and how to safely use resources, they act on assumpions, emotion, and believe agenda driven science.
> 
> Mental Disorder



And I suppose the Oil Gas and Coal companies that are doing so much damage to the environment to extract these poisons give a rats ass about the environment.


----------



## Söulcaster

yladrd61 said:


> And I suppose the Oil Gas and Coal companies that are doing so much damage to the environment to extract these poisons give a rats ass about the environment.



The amount of damage they are doing to Australia's reefs and underground fresh water systems is criminal...,,,


----------



## yladrd61

Yes that is why I said Patton had the best teacher Erwin Rommel. Whose tactics in France and North Africa wrote the book on Mobile Armored warfare. Patton used the same tactics except he had Air Superiority. 




Marshall Mann said:


> Did you catch up with the rest of the thread?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please post a current comment to confirm that you have.


----------



## scat7s

the medical examiners name is 'carver'

no kidding


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

SmokeyDopey said:


> Hey man, what's up?



Ah! Derpina, how be?


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

yladrd61 said:


> And I suppose the Oil Gas and Coal companies that are doing so much damage to the environment to extract these poisons give a rats ass about the environment.



Profits man... profits.. at all human and world cost - just for a group of very wealthy guys to enjoy their time here - in their lifetime only


----------



## Bubba po

I've missed the fight, haven't I?


----------



## Grunch

Bubba po said:


> I've missed the fight, haven't I?



The keyboard is mightier than the gun.


----------



## Bubba po

Grunch said:


> The keyboard is mightier than the gun.


 
Jon Lord ha'mercy! Hail the Prophet!

And other piano-based puns.


----------



## Grunch

Bubba po said:


> Jon Lord ha'mercy! Hail the Prophet!
> 
> And other piano-based puns.



WTF you been doing anyway? PM me here or at that other place.


----------



## blues_n_cues

scat7s said:


> the medical examiners name is 'carver'
> 
> no kidding



that dude was jacked up-
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm6cN3z5Zd0]Sandy Hook Medical Examiner Wayne Carver Has Weird Behaviors YouTube - YouTube[/ame]

more bullshit being debunked-
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpFTNA80ss]Sandy Hook Hoax Completely Revealed - Media Lies - Actors - Satanism - Govt. Coverup - False Flag - YouTube[/ame]

Newton,CT. mom jacking them up-
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU1XaAc8E0]Newton, CT Mother QUESTIONING things - YouTube[/ame]


and this is her husband that was killed in the car wreck she mentioned- very strange coincidence.hmmm
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9in0Kk0vmIY[/ame]


----------



## blues_n_cues

n/m the illuminati crap-
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v6znkfItT4]More Proof This Was All Planned Years Ago? - YouTube[/ame]

but this is all just for entertainment purposes right?


----------



## blues_n_cues

and if you tink that wasn't crazy enough CHECK THIS OUT.
Sandy Hook/Gabby Gifford/Casey Anthony thing all related? 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTnjIee9hPw]EXPOSED - MEET THE THE HOOK SHOOTINGS ACTORS - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## blues_n_cues

and by far the best video ever-

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpFTNA80ss]Sandy Hook Hoax Completely Revealed - Media Lies - Actors - Satanism - Govt. Coverup - False Flag - YouTube[/ame]


oops.already posted that one.


----------



## Grunch

Lol. It's back!


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Lol.


----------



## Alt Freak

How did blues get all into the conspiracy stuff?


----------



## brp

*Mild to moderate psychological symptoms: 
Feeling of jumpiness or nervousness
Feeling of shakiness
Anxiety
Irritability or easily excited
Emotional volatility, rapid emotional changes
Depression
Fatigue
 Difficulty with thinking clearly
Bad dreams *


I dunno but I really think he needs to start drinking again.


----------



## Feeling Supersonic

Wow, jerk suggestion.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Alt Freak said:


> How did blues get all into the conspiracy stuff?



He's waking up. Once that happens, it's an adrenaline rush in the discovery of truth. His world has changed for the better. I love it.


----------



## brp

crossroadsnyc said:


> He's waking up. Once that happens, it's an adrenaline rush in the discovery of truth. .



Well that's one way to characterize it I suppose.
Another would be to say that "an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove, or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or a combination of well understood psychological conditions". In fact, that _is_ said.


Source - Truthers: the Mental Health Headache. The Westminster Journal, December 27, 2007.


----------



## Alt Freak

crossroadsnyc said:


> His world has changed for the better.


Now he can be scared of everything


----------



## Alt Freak

Turn off the TV! Question everything!

Well turn off the YouTube! Question everything right?!


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Alt Freak said:


> Turn off the TV! Question everything!
> 
> Well turn off the YouTube! Question everything right?!



I suppose you can question everything, or just accept what you're told. Ultimately, the choice is ours.


----------



## Alt Freak

crossroadsnyc said:


> I suppose you can question everything, or just accept what you're told. Ultimately, the choice is ours.


With conspiracist I find they usually always question the mainstream media and have unpopular thoughts on things. But they usually have some little story or so some link/video supporting their thoughts. They question everything that doesn't match their thoughts but don't bother questioning the thing that supports their theories. 

You can't just pick and choose. If you're going to "question everything" question everything! How do you know if your source is the one that's right or if it is actually exposing the truth? It has as much chance as being bullshit as whatever comes from Fox news, or CNN, MSNBC, etc.


----------



## DirtySteve

Alt Freak said:


> How do you know if your source is the one that's right or if it is actually exposing the truth? It has as much chance as being bullshit as whatever comes from Fox news, or CNN, MSNBC, etc.



This is what I'd like to know.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

Alt Freak said:


> With conspiracist I find they usually always question the mainstream media and have unpopular thoughts on things. But they usually have some little story or so some link/video supporting their thoughts. They question everything that doesn't match their thoughts but don't bother questioning the thing that supports their theories.
> 
> You can't just pick and choose. If you're going to "question everything" question everything! How do you know if your source is the one that's right or if it is actually exposing the truth? It has as much chance as being bullshit as whatever comes from Fox news, or CNN, MSNBC, etc.



Yes, question everything ... I agree. As for how to go about it, well, I'll be candid in that it's very time consuming, and it's not simply a case of following one trail / source of information. I'll also say that a lot of 'conspiracy sites / alternative news outlets' can be full of just as much dis-info as corporate news sites, so just taking someone's word for it because it didn't come from Fox / CNN / etc., is not going to help you in the long run. It's a puzzle that takes a lot of time ... and really, if you don't have the interest, you'll never have the effort that's required (i spend hours a day reading about it, and i've been doing it for a few years ... in that time, i've only scratched the surface). I'll also be candid in saying that I wouldn't have had this conversation w/you prior to October 2010 (when we saw the ufo's) ... sometimes it's just a matter of something sparking the light from within.


----------



## anitoli

Be wary of any conspiracy theory thats is fortold of in the bible, NWO, add what you like......


----------



## crossroadsnyc

anitoli said:


> Be wary of any conspiracy theory thats is fortold of in the bible, NWO, add what you like......



Definitely. That's one of the hardest parts in getting started when trying to cut through the clutter. I'm convinced that it's purposely overwhelming / confusing in order to get people to just give up and keep on the straight & narrow.


----------



## scat7s

> Well that's one way to characterize it I suppose.
> Another would be to say that "an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove, or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or a combination of well understood psychological conditions". In fact, that _is_ said.
> 
> 
> Source - Truthers: the Mental Health Headache. The Westminster Journal, December 27, 2007.



a very effective counter-measure isnt it? 

get some shrinks to diagnose it as a disorder, nobody wants to be associated with any kind of mental defect do they? 

bunch of shit...


----------



## brp

Well that's a little too black & white IMO.
There is certainly the mental unwellness of delusional paranoia and constructed persecution complexes, etc. It does exist, I know this to be true as I've experienced it in people who were suffering it.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

scat7s said:


> a very effective counter-measure isnt it?
> 
> get some shrinks to diagnose it as a disorder, nobody wants to be associated with any kind of mental defect do they?
> 
> bunch of shit...



Lol, yes. 

My psychological condition? Healthy, thank you very much!


----------



## scat7s

brp said:


> Well that's a little too black & white IMO.
> There is certainly the mental unwellness of delusional paranoia and constructed persecution complexes, etc. It does exist, I know this to be true as I've experienced it in people who were suffering it.



oh i understand there are real disorders. real paranoia etc...

by classifying those who do not believe a middle of the road narrative as defective, it keeps people quiet doesnt it? it creates a taboo....or it puts people on medication. 

either way, very effective. 

you ever wonder what happened to some of those babbling incoherent idiots that are full of paranoia and delusion? 

something did. ive developed a whole new respect for the "nuts" out there in recent years. theyve got their stories to tell, and just b/c their brains are scrambled doesnt mean their story/feelings/intuitions should be discarded as nonsense.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Well, it is part of our reaction or programming to see or look for an antithesis to something.
_Of course_ there are conspiracy theories that are full of shit, and _of course_ it should be questioned as well.

The idea is to get a broader perspective. Not to believe everything that is told by the rulers, and not to just dismiss any possibility. The idea isn't to get all wrapped up and completely paranoid about life in general, but to understand one's surroundings: To understand where some violent reactions can come from, to understand the constant state of depression and anxiety that society in general experiences. Sure there are healthy people, both mentally and physically, but if you start digging deep you realize that there is something that isnt quite right.

_Truth_. Bah, such a loose term. It can be very ambiguous and twisted. I dont want ''the truth'' since there can be so many different versions and perspectives of it. I want to _understand_.


----------



## brp

scat7s said:


> by classifying those who do not believe a middle of the road narrative as defective, it keeps people quiet doesnt it?



Ya I don't think anyone is saying that. Maybe some are. I certainly wasn't. And I do not put faith in conventional psych medicine.


And yes, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.


But sometimes, I think it's very accurate the way it was described in what I quoted. As I said, I've seen it and know it 100% to be quite a real mental phenomenon.


----------



## brp

crossroadsnyc said:


> My psychological condition? Healthy, thank you very much!



One school of thought says that no one would be a better judge of that than yourself.
However, another says that you would be the least qualified to form such a conclusion. 
Both have their merit and both have their faults, IMO.
Personally, with much consideration given over the years, I'm too on the fence to adopt the position of either.


----------



## scat7s

> Ya I don't think anyone is saying that. Maybe some are. I certainly wasn't. And I do not put faith in conventional psych medicine.


fair enough, didnt mean to put words in your mouth


----------



## brp

I get your point though and it's a valid one to consider. 
It's certainly grade-A conspiracy theorist fodder to the point of cliche.
ala "that's JUST what THEY want you to believe!"


----------



## brp

I get your point though. It's certainly grade-A conspiracy theorist fodder to the point of cliche.
ala "that's JUST what THEY want you to believe!"


----------



## scat7s

brp said:


> I get your point though. It's certainly grade-A conspiracy theorist fodder to the point of cliche.
> ala "that's JUST what THEY want you to believe!"




kind of a damned if you do, damned if you dont approach isnt it?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

The thing is we are all crazy in some sort of way. ''They'' just drew a line to where one would be called crazy, or defined 'clinically insane'. Sometimes it's hard to determine if someone crossed the line, according to ''their'' parameters.

haha
Crazy or sane. Black and white. How easy 

Some people are very good at hiding it. I guess someone ''sane'' is someone that can hold back some stuff. Properly trained to think or react a certain way. If you don't react as the model that is taught, then shit... You are fucking insane.


----------



## scat7s

and the irony is the reluctance to openly discuss the fact that the most ambitious, powerful, successful and accomplished people in history have an inclination for psychotic features far higher than the avg in middle society.

what would y'all make of that?


----------



## rmlevasseur

scat7s said:


> and the irony is the reluctance to openly discuss the fact that the most ambitious, powerful, successful and accomplished people in history have an inclination for psychotic features far higher than the avg in middle society.
> 
> what would y'all make of that?



I'd say its bullshit and a propaganda used to justify attacks on other countries because their leaders are "crazy". After all, (if u are American) can you name one American president commonly deemed to be psychotic? Nope. You think people in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea would agree there have been no psychotic American presidents? Nope.


----------



## crossroadsnyc

brp said:


> One school of thought says that no one would be a better judge of that than yourself.
> However, another says that you would be the least qualified to form such a conclusion.
> Both have their merit and both have their faults, IMO.
> Personally, with much consideration given over the years, I'm too on the fence to adopt the position of either.



There's a lot of that in it, man. The first 6 months I started reading on alternative news sites, there were a number of times where I had to kind of stop and ask myself if maybe I was losing it a little bit. To put it mildly, it's startling. That said, and while it might sound convoluted, I have come to believe that feeling a little crazy from time to time is healthy in the long run.


----------



## scat7s

rmlevasseur said:


> I'd say its bullshit and a propaganda used to justify attacks on other countries because their leaders are "crazy". After all, (if u are American) can you name one American president commonly deemed to be psychotic? Nope. You think people in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, North Korea would agree there have been no psychotic American presidents? Nope.



i think your misunderstanding me.

but i get your point as well. my point is, you dont rise to the top without getting a little dirt on you along the way. it takes a certain character to be ok with that.
and the type of dirt is in direct relation to the type of work we are talking about.


----------



## brp

crossroadsnyc said:


> feeling a little crazy from time to time is healthy in the long run.



Most definitely.


----------



## blues_n_cues

brp said:


> Well that's one way to characterize it I suppose.
> Another would be to say that "an obsessive compulsion to believe, prove, or re-tell a conspiracy theory may indicate one or a combination of well understood psychological conditions". In fact, that _is_ said.
> 
> 
> Source - Truthers: the Mental Health Headache. The Westminster Journal, December 27, 2007.



or maybe it's just source material for writing a song. maybe take a look @ your own mental stability before taking a stab @ other people.

there are plenty of people around here w/ far deeper problems than I.


----------



## blues_n_cues

but while we're on it...

why did Obama give yet another antigun speech yesterday in front of a bunch of innercity black kids in the nation's murder capitol instead of a bunch of corn farmers in rural nebraska? oh and that girl's parents were all smiles once again..

1st pope in 400 years quits
same day he announces it lightning strikes the vatican.
meteor strikes in Russia,asteroid gets closer to earth than ever before.
Department of Homeland Security receives 1.6 billion bullets recently.
now they want to give "heroism" medals for drone strikes.speaking of which,Obama's favorite cronie is chairman of the congressional committee looking into Benghazi.

pearl harbor was a total suprise
we were never in Cambodia & Laos
LSD was never used in CIA experiments
john Glenn never saw aliens..


yep-call me crazy....


----------



## blues_n_cues

want some more wacky stuff? 

just google Cerberus Freedom Group or Cerberus Capitol Management. makers of the Bushmaster rifle.
their guns were used in the Portland mall shootings,NYC empire state building shootings,Webster,NY shootings, Sandy Hook and now this Dorner guy in California. 

they are the owners of the nation's largest gun manufacturer.they are also selling out due to all the pension fund investments being pulled including
California state teacher's & NY teachers funds. NY alone is over 50 million and California is 750 million.
In Unusual Move, Cerberus to Sell Freedom Group, a Gun Company - NYTimes.com

it's just a bit strange how states w/ or who want the tightest gun restrictions have the highest pension funds invested in firearms manufacturers.

here's just a bit of what they own-

This is hardly the first time that the publicity-shy Mr. Feinberg has come under scrutiny because of a Cerberus holding. In the last decade, during the peak of the leveraged buyout boom, Cerberus made national headlines after buying two of the country’s best-known companies, the automaker Chrysler and the finance arm of General Motors.

The Freedom Group’s origins date to 2006, when Cerberus acquired Bushmaster Firearms. The firm then consolidated the fragmented gun industry, acquiring at least six other brands and rolling them into one company to create the Freedom Group, which is based in Madison, N.C. Freedom is on track to post about $900 million in revenue this year.

Other brands under the Freedom Group umbrella include Remington Arms, the country’s largest and oldest maker of rifles; Marlin Firearms, a manufacturer of lever-action rifles; and Advanced Armament, a maker of pistol silencers. The company filed for an initial public offering of stock in 2009, but it withdrew the offering last year after its financial performance flagged.

Mr. Feinberg has a penchant for investing in military-related businesses. Cerberus’s holdings include the military contractor IAP Worldwide Services and the satellite provider GeoEye. Cerberus also explored an investment in Blackwater USA, the private security contractor since renamed Academi, but a deal never materialized.

A major Republican donor, Mr. Feinberg has Dan Quayle, the former vice president, and John Snow, the former Treasury secretary, on Cerberus’s payroll. Among the former military leaders on Freedom Group’s board is George A. Joulwan, the onetime supreme allied commander of Europe.

oh yeah,CERBERUS-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerberus


----------



## scat7s

worthy of a repeat, this was recently brought to my attention...seems relevent, no?






Excerpt from *Behold a Pale Horse*

By *William Cooper *

Published 1991

pgs 224-226



For many years the Secret Government has been importing drugs and
selling them to the people, mainly the poor and minorities. Social welfare
programs were put into place to create a dependent, nonworking element
in our society. The government then began to remove these programs to
force people into a criminal class that did not exist in the '50s and '60s.

The government encouraged the manufacture and importation of
military firearms for the criminals to use. This is intended to foster a
feeling of insecurity, which would lead the American people to voluntarily
disarm themselves by passing laws against firearms. Using drugs and
hypnosis on mental patients in a process called Orion, the CIA inculcated
the desire in these people to open fire on schoolyards and thus inflame the
antigun lobby. This plan is well under way, and so far is working perfectly.
The middle class is begging the government to do away with the 2nd
amendment.

Author's Note: I have found that these events have indeed happened all over
the country. In every instance that I have investigated — the incident at the
women's school in Canada, the shopping center incident in Canada, the Stockton,
California, massacre, and the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane — the
shooters were all ex-mental patients or were current mental patients who were
ALL ON THE DRUG PROZAC! This drug, when taken in certain doses,
increases the serotonin level in the patient, causing extreme violence. Couple
that with a posthypnotic suggestion or control through an electronic brain
implant or microwave or E.L.F. intrusion and you get mass murder, ending in
every case with the suicide of the perpetrator. Exhume the bodies of the
murderers and check for a brain implant. I think you are going to be surprised.
In every case the name of the murderer's doctor or mental treatment facility
has been withheld. I believe we will be able to establish intelligence-community
connections and/or connections to known CIA experimental mindcontrol
programs when we finally discover who these doctors of death really
are.

Due to the wave of crime sweeping the nation, the media will convince
the American people that a state of anarchy exists within the major cities.
They are now building their case almost nightly on TV and daily in the
newspapers. When public opinion has been won to this idea, they intend
to state that a terrorist group armed with a nuclear weapon has entered the
United States and that they plan to detonate this device in one of our cities.
(This is now being set up by the crisis in the Middle East.) The Government
will then suspend the Constitution and declare martial law. The secret
alien army of implanted humans and all dissidents, which translates into
anyone they choose, will be rounded up and placed in the one-mile-square
concentration camps which already exist. Are the people whom they intend
to place in these concentration camps destined to make up the
reported "batch consignments" of slave labor needed by the space
colonies?

The media — radio, TV, newspapers, and computer networks — will
be nationalized and seized. Anyone who resists will be taken or killed.
This entire operation was rehearsed by the government and military in
1984 under the code name REX-84A and it went off without a hitch. When
these events have transpired, the SECRET GOVERNMENT and/or ALIEN
takeover will be complete. Your freedom will never be returned and you
will live in slavery for the remainder of your life. You had better wake up
and you had better do it now!


----------



## scat7s

*Prominent rifle manufacturer killed in mysterious car crash days after posting psych drug link to school shooters *​ 


Learn more: Prominent rifle manufacturer killed in mysterious car crash days after posting psych drug link to school shooters​ 




*Read John Noveske's last Facebook post*​ 
This is the last post John Noveske made on his Facebook page before he was killed:​ 
Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available to the public.​ 
Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.​ 
Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.​ 
Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.​ 
Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.​ 
Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.​ 
Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.​ 
Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.​ 
A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.​ 
Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..​ 
A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.​ 
Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.​ 
TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.​ 
Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.​ 
James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.​ 
Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania​ 
Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California​ 
Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.​ 
Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.​ 
Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.​ 
Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.​ 
Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.​ 
Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.​ 
Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.​ 
Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family's Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.​ 
Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said ".... the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil...")​ 
Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,
(Gareth's father could not accept his son's death and killed himself.)​ 
Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family's detached garage.​ 
Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.​ 
Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.​ 
Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.​ 
A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.​ 
Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."​ 
Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.​ 
Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.​ 
Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.
Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.​ 
Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his
New York high school.​ 
Missing from list... 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds....​ 
What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21...... killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az​ 
What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24..... killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado​ 
What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or​ 
What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct
Roberts is the only one that I haven't heard about being on drugs of some kind. ​ 
Learn more: Prominent rifle manufacturer killed in mysterious car crash days after posting psych drug link to school shooters​


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## blues_n_cues

and the sheeple still don't get it.
it's also kind of funny how Obama has put the press on a short leash or no access @ all period, yet for $500,000 you can be part of his club & attend quarterly meetings with him.
For sale: President Barack Obama | Flopping Aces)

maybe we should take up donations to send Uncle Ted to a conference w/ Obama.


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## longfxukxnhair

scat7s said:


> worthy of a repeat, this was recently brought to my attention...seems relevent, no?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Excerpt from *Behold a Pale Horse*
> 
> By *William Cooper *
> 
> Published 1991
> 
> pgs 224-226
> 
> 
> 
> For many years the Secret Government has been importing drugs and
> selling them to the people, mainly the poor and minorities. Social welfare
> programs were put into place to create a dependent, nonworking element
> in our society. The government then began to remove these programs to
> force people into a criminal class that did not exist in the '50s and '60s.
> 
> The government encouraged the manufacture and importation of
> military firearms for the criminals to use. This is intended to foster a
> feeling of insecurity, which would lead the American people to voluntarily
> disarm themselves by passing laws against firearms. Using drugs and
> hypnosis on mental patients in a process called Orion, the CIA inculcated
> the desire in these people to open fire on schoolyards and thus inflame the
> antigun lobby. This plan is well under way, and so far is working perfectly.
> The middle class is begging the government to do away with the 2nd
> amendment.
> 
> Author's Note: I have found that these events have indeed happened all over
> the country. In every instance that I have investigated — the incident at the
> women's school in Canada, the shopping center incident in Canada, the Stockton,
> California, massacre, and the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane — the
> shooters were all ex-mental patients or were current mental patients who were
> ALL ON THE DRUG PROZAC! This drug, when taken in certain doses,
> increases the serotonin level in the patient, causing extreme violence. Couple
> that with a posthypnotic suggestion or control through an electronic brain
> implant or microwave or E.L.F. intrusion and you get mass murder, ending in
> every case with the suicide of the perpetrator. Exhume the bodies of the
> murderers and check for a brain implant. I think you are going to be surprised.
> In every case the name of the murderer's doctor or mental treatment facility
> has been withheld. I believe we will be able to establish intelligence-community
> connections and/or connections to known CIA experimental mindcontrol
> programs when we finally discover who these doctors of death really
> are.
> 
> Due to the wave of crime sweeping the nation, the media will convince
> the American people that a state of anarchy exists within the major cities.
> They are now building their case almost nightly on TV and daily in the
> newspapers. When public opinion has been won to this idea, they intend
> to state that a terrorist group armed with a nuclear weapon has entered the
> United States and that they plan to detonate this device in one of our cities.
> (This is now being set up by the crisis in the Middle East.) The Government
> will then suspend the Constitution and declare martial law. The secret
> alien army of implanted humans and all dissidents, which translates into
> anyone they choose, will be rounded up and placed in the one-mile-square
> concentration camps which already exist. Are the people whom they intend
> to place in these concentration camps destined to make up the
> reported "batch consignments" of slave labor needed by the space
> colonies?
> 
> The media — radio, TV, newspapers, and computer networks — will
> be nationalized and seized. Anyone who resists will be taken or killed.
> This entire operation was rehearsed by the government and military in
> 1984 under the code name REX-84A and it went off without a hitch. When
> these events have transpired, the SECRET GOVERNMENT and/or ALIEN
> takeover will be complete. Your freedom will never be returned and you
> will live in slavery for the remainder of your life. You had better wake up
> and you had better do it now!



This was an interesting book


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## Strav

This place seems to have a few folks off the deep end. Sad.


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## blues_n_cues

Strav said:


> This place seems to have a few folks off the deep end. Sad.



and who would those people be? the ones who believe the bs fed to you on the daily news or those who are standing up for the rights handed down by our founding fathers? 

the deep end is- your current govt. believes you can't take care of yourself & they must do it for you: 
forced immunizations
regulate your diet-gmo.
welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Obamacare
gun control
freedom of speech,right to assemble,form militias...
question & search you anytime or anywhere.

need we add others?


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## SmokeyDopey

Strav said:


> This place seems to have a few folks off the deep end. Sad.



A lot of judgemental folks as well.


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## Alt Freak

blues_n_cues said:


> and who would those people be? the ones who believe the bs fed to you on the daily news or those who are standing up for the rights handed down by our founding fathers?
> 
> the deep end is- your current govt. believes you can't take care of yourself & they must do it for you:
> forced immunizations
> regulate your diet-gmo.
> welfare,medicaid,food stamps,Obamacare
> gun control
> freedom of speech,right to assemble,form militias...
> question & search you anytime or anywhere.
> 
> need we add others?


I haven't been forced to have any immunizations.
I can eat whatever I want whenever I want. 
Won't go on that topic. 
The 2nd amendment is still here and I can go out and buy a gun today.
I can say whatever I want, I do have the right to assemble, and I can form my militia today!
Not really


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## SmokeyDopey

Alt Freak said:


> I haven't been forced to have any immunizations.
> I can eat whatever I want whenever I want.
> Won't go on that topic.
> The 2nd amendment is still here and I can go out and buy a gun today.
> I can say whatever I want, I do have the right to assemble, and I can form my militia today!
> Not really



In California to go to school there was the medical review that showed what immunizations were done, and if there were any missing you had to get them before entering. 

The GMO thing... They dont want to label what is GMO anymore. Some people are trying for that NOT to happen, but it is one of their goals.


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## crossroadsnyc

Alt Freak said:


> I haven't been forced to have any immunizations.
> I can eat whatever I want whenever I want.
> Won't go on that topic.
> The 2nd amendment is still here and I can go out and buy a gun today.
> I can say whatever I want, I do have the right to assemble, and I can form my militia today!
> Not really



Here are the forced immunization laws for your state ... 

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

No, you may not eat whatever you want ... 

Banned Food - US Banned Foods List - Delish.com

No, you may not say whatever you want ... 

Freedom of speech by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## CaptainZero

Try to get a soda larger than 16oz (.5L) in NY. That guy is an idiot.


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## crossroadsnyc

CaptainZero said:


> Try to get a soda larger than 16oz (.5L) in NY. That guy is an idiot.


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## Alt Freak

crossroadsnyc said:


> Here are the forced immunization laws for your state ...
> 
> Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
> 
> No, you may not eat whatever you want ...
> 
> Banned Food - US Banned Foods List - Delish.com
> 
> No, you may not say whatever you want ...
> 
> Freedom of speech by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I have not had any shots or immunizations done to me in over 5 years. No one is forcing me to get a shot tomorrow. That list of banned food only has 4 items that you cannot eat or have anywhere in the USA. One of them being a fruit that can kill me. Yet I can easily go someplace and eat everything on that list if I wanted to. 

What can I not say Crossroads? I can go to the Washington D.C. and say whatever the hell is on my mind.


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## Alt Freak

I don't know how someone can live a happy life trying to figure out ways that they are not free. Is it fun?


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## Feeling Supersonic

CaptainZero said:


> Try to get a soda larger than 16oz (.5L) in NY. That guy is an idiot.



Can't you just buy two mediums or something to get it more so?
Or would that be more expensive, and besides, who wants to buy two of something for an individual? 

Is the cut off point at 16oz to discourage obesity and poor health? 

It is ridiculous. 

We're like animals in a cage, and they need to control our diets to a 'certain degree' 

You go to McDonald's everyday and eat yourself to death though.. But hey! there's money in that death... so it's okay.


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## SmokeyDopey

On one hand that is pretty fucking cool since those beverages are SHIT, but on the other hand when will they draw the line on what the population is eating?


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## Feeling Supersonic

Cool posts scat!


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## crossroadsnyc

Alt Freak said:


> I have not had any shots or immunizations done to me in over 5 years. No one is forcing me to get a shot tomorrow. That list of banned food only has 4 items that you cannot eat or have anywhere in the USA. One of them being a fruit that can kill me. Yet I can easily go someplace and eat everything on that list if I wanted to.
> 
> What can I not say Crossroads? I can go to the Washington D.C. and say whatever the hell is on my mind.



Food - there are other foods not on that list that you can look up if you wish. The point, however, is that you were not entirely correct in saying you can eat whatever you want. There are food consumption laws on the books. 

Forced Immunization - you said it can't happen, I showed you laws in your own state that prove otherwise. 

Free Speech - yes, there are laws on the limits of free speech. Ever heard of defamation of character, or slander? Those are two of many limits on freedom of speech.


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## CaptainZero

The problem isn't that we aren't free, it's that they are slowly trying to take away freedom. Why the fuck can't you buy a 2 liter bottle of soda when you order a pizza. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. This is only the beginning. When it doesn't 'work', they'll say they haven't done enough. Maybe you don't think soda with sugar is good for you. It's probably not, but why should you care if someone else wants it. You shouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to pay for their diabetes either, but that's another argument.


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## crossroadsnyc

CaptainZero said:


> The problem isn't that we aren't free, it's that they are slowly trying to take away freedom. Why the fuck can't you buy a 2 liter bottle of soda when you order a pizza. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. This is only the beginning. When it doesn't 'work', they'll say they haven't done enough. Maybe you don't think soda with sugar is good for you. It's probably not, but why should you care if someone else wants it. You shouldn't. I wouldn't ask you to pay for their diabetes either, but that's another argument.


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## Alt Freak

crossroadsnyc said:


> Food - there are other foods not on that list that you can look up if you wish. The point, however, is that you were not entirely correct in saying you can eat whatever you want. There are food consumption laws on the books.
> 
> Forced Immunization - you said it can't happen, I showed you laws in your own state that prove otherwise.
> 
> Free Speech - yes, there are laws on the limits of free speech. Ever heard of defamation of character, or slander? Those are two of many limits on freedom of speech.


I never said forced immunization can't happen. I'm saying I am not being forced to get an immunization. 

I just really don't understand why you and other people pride themselves in trying to tell other people they aren't free. Trying to display to them they aren't free. Its fucking rediculous. This place isn't enjoyable anymore


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## scat7s

some people want to know, good news or bad news, they just want to have the facts as accurate as possible, for lots of different reasons. 

me? i like to know so that hopefully i can make better decisions in my life. 

some people prefer the myopic view thats been handed down from generation to generation. play the game, get along, and dont make waves, leave the messy stuff to the guys who have always handled it before. 

i dont mind debating with you alt, and im glad your here, reading, asking questions, etc....but if its making you unhappy, you dont have to participate. there are lots of other topics and discussions happening all ove rthis site.

again, im not trying to shoo you off though....


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## CaptainZero

Alt Freak said:


> I never said forced immunization can't happen. I'm saying I am not being forced to get an immunization.
> 
> I just really don't understand why you and other people pride themselves in trying to tell other people they aren't free. Trying to display to them they aren't free. Its fucking rediculous. This place isn't enjoyable anymore



I hope I'm not offending you. I know were free, I just don't want some of the things I enjoy taken away, and (to me) it feels like it's coming.


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## SmokeyDopey

Kudos Alt, you are _questioning _


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## Alt Freak

When most of the threads are about or turn into a conspiracy topic because of the same four people it starts getting pretty funny. Keep spreading the good word Smokey! Question everything and turn off the TV! 

I'm out


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## brp

So now we're saying Infowars is government controlled puppet opposition?
omfg guise seriously lol


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## scat7s

brp said:


> So now we're saying Infowars is government controlled puppet opposition?
> omfg guise seriously lol


 
counterintuitive isnt it? 

its part of the plan. these guys have both been around for decades doing their thing. 

there will be a backlash against them, and those that support them. they build it up, so that they can crush it. 

that doesnt make any sense to you? as elcid said, why are these men allowed to do what they do? they make tons of money with their programs, presentations, and books. 

the things they say? yet there are no lawsuits, they are not even acknowledged publicly by govt. 

sandy hook, this is the first time ive seen in the MSM where there are stories about "conspiracy" people harassing grieving parents and other people in newtown accusing them of being actors etc....

this is just setting the stage for the backlash. watch it develop. it might take some time for it to cresendo, but its coming.

in the meantime, to many, they sow confusion and chaos, adding to the general disillusionment of current societal woes. if you cant keep them pacified, keep them confused. disillusioned with the current system, we demand a new way forward. 

and they have that almost ready to go live as well. new world order....cliche these days, but it doesnt make it untrue.


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## brp

Do you really think that's the most reasonable explanation for why the Gov. doesn't sue him for defamation?


Sandy Hook conspirators were/are mentioned in MSM because all things Sandy Hook were getting press. It was a topical story that "sold copy" and that's all MSM cares about.


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## Feeling Supersonic

People actually get emotional about this stuff? wow!


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## scat7s

brp said:


> Do you really think that's the most reasonable explanation for why the Gov. doesn't sue him for defamation?
> 
> 
> Sandy Hook conspirators were/are mentioned in MSM because all things Sandy Hook were getting press. It was a topical story that "sold copy" and that's all MSM cares about.


 


ok...we'll have to just wait it out and see what develops in the next decade or so i guess.

things are moving faster, but in the context of the big picture, things are still going to take years/decades to fully mature. im telling you what the future holds. and i personally would be very surprised if anything big and drastic took form overnight. 

icke likes to call it "the totalitarian tiptoe" 

aptly named. 

the sensational nature of icke and jones also plays into the fact that they like to make all of these plans seem like they could drop at any moment. this is not the case (imo) it will continue to move slowly and deliberately. 

though faster than they have in the past. b/c, frankly, we are getting closer to the end goal. 

another component to the jones icke conspiracy phenomenon is that they ALWAYS tell us whats coming (by 'they' i mean the shadow controllers). i believe this has to do with some spiritual element. they cannot outright lie, but they can mislead and decieve, but the truth is always hidden in the myriad of storylines. 

i dont know exactly why this is, but it seems to be the case imo. perhaps its a spiritual thing, perhaps its just working on a subconcious level and this is the system they feel works best. 

as ive said before, they always seek our consent. by apathy, or concious decision, or clever deception stopping just short of outright lying, they always seek consent. free will. 

i would compare this to the genie in the bottle, you get a wish granted, but its always got some strings attached, its never what you expected it to be exactly....


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## SmokeyDopey

Alt Freak said:


> Question everything and turn off the TV!



Yes, yes!


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## blues_n_cues

interesting articles-
Kentucky told Obama to fuck off 34-3.
FRANKFORT, Ky.: Senate passes bill blocking more federal gun laws | State | Kentucky.com

and in Arkanasas you can now take your gun to church-
Law allowing guns in churches signed by Arkansas governor - U.S. News

another article-
After Newtown, states slow to embrace new gun laws - U.S. News


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## anitoli

Direct from Russia. Read up boys, listen to those who have been trammpled on........

Americans never give up your guns - English pravda.ru

And check out Miss Russia!!!


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## blues_n_cues

an outright lie by the prosecutor?
Newtown gunman Adam Lanza fired 155 bullets in less than five minutes, prosecutor says - Open Channel

The total included 154 fired from a Bushmaster .223-model rifle and a final bullet, fired from a Glock 10mm handgun, that Lanza used to take his own life, said Stephen Sedensky, the chief prosecutor investigating the shooting.

according to every report we have heard so far,the Bushmaster was not found in the school.4 handguns were


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## blues_n_cues

and this,copied from the net-

This is in contradiction to the fact that they said all the wounds were done by a hand gun. That the automatic style weapon was found in this trunk. Now lets get real here, where are the wounded? 154 rounds and no wounded? The movie theater in Colorado had wounded with less occupants but the same enclosed room situation.

I say anyone who does not question the official story needs to stop posting. There is something officially wrong here as the conflicts still exist between the weapon type as well as the events after the fact. Like the man who ran? Why did he not try and get children out before running away and why was he not treated like other's at a crime scene. Too many questions not enough factual answers and no addition wounded. Use your brain for more than choosing if you want to supersize or not.


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## anitoli

Just because its 223 doesnt mean that its the most leathal round out there. Most deer ammo is by far more damaging than FMJ rounds. While FMJ's will kill with the right shot, it is more importantly designed to wound. A dead soldier can be left behind while a wounded soldier chews up resources, takes men out of the fight to assist the wounded, creates a need for hospital space, e-vac, medicine....ect.
This military illusion is all that it is, doesnt mean more leathal.


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## blues_n_cues

my old M1 carbine put big holes in things.


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## Feeling Supersonic

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2I84-A9duY]Boomtown Rats - I Don't Like Mondays - YouTube[/ame]


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## blues_n_cues

Nelson,Ga. passes mandatory gun ownership law.
?You must own a gun?: Georgia town passes mandatory firearms law ? RT USA


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