# Marshall 1987 vs 1986



## IbanezMark

What's the difference between the 1987 lead circuit and the 1986 bass circuit?
More specifically, I guess - how much do the two 50 watters differ in tone for guitar use?

I'm going to guess the 1987 will be brighter and break up a little quicker?
:cool2:


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## Frankie

You guessed right. The lead spec amp'll be more aggressive.


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## IbanezMark

Damn, I'm GAS'ing for a 50 watter pretty badly.
The 1987 reissues seem to be fetching around $800-900 on craigslist. Not around here though..


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## janarn

The only difference on early models is the "brightcap".


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## Frankie

IbanezMark said:


> Damn, I'm GAS'ing for a 50 watter pretty badly.
> The 1987 reissues seem to be fetching around $800-900 on craigslist. Not around here though..



Could probably pick up a Metroamp 50 watter off the forums for around that too, people seem to sell them pretty often. I built one of their 50 watter kits, '68 lead spec, and it's pretty much the business. It's been my main gigging amp, but it might get to stay home next time in lieu of my 2203 depending on what venue we play.


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## IbanezMark

Yeah I've been checking out the Metroamps and the Ceriatones.
Any idea how the two compare? I've heard very good things about both.

If I go the kit route, it's getting a red relic'd headbox :cool2:


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## Frankie

I've never played a Ceriatone, so I can't tell you, but I can definitely vouch for Metro. My 50 watter sounds better than some honest Marshalls I've plugged into. There's a video of mine in The Cellar right now with my pop playing through my Metro cranked if you want to check it out. It's the post about the 4th.


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## peterichardz

IbanezMark said:


> Yeah I've been checking out the Metroamps and the Ceriatones.
> Any idea how the two compare? I've heard very good things about both.
> 
> If I go the kit route, it's getting a red relic'd headbox :cool2:



Metroamps=USA=I can call these guys and stop at the shop!
Ceriatone=Chinese=Wanted to order parts & my Mastercard wouldn't allow the transfer!


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## IbanezMark

Frankie said:


> I've never played a Ceriatone, so I can't tell you, but I can definitely vouch for Metro. My 50 watter sounds better than some honest Marshalls I've plugged into. There's a video of mine in The Cellar right now with my pop playing through my Metro cranked if you want to check it out. It's the post about the 4th.



Damn, Frankie. You're killing me bud.
This might have to happen sooner than later..

:cool2:


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## Frankie

IbanezMark said:


> Damn, Frankie. You're killing me bud.
> This might have to happen sooner than later..
> 
> :cool2:



Seems like a lot of people on this forum are too intent on the new models of Marshalls, which I totally agree with and support since it is the Marshall forum afterall, but they forget or just never had a chance to experience the 4 holers. What a 4 holer lacks in front end gain is made up for in spades by breaking up the EL34's in the power section, and the SPL's they push will make you have a religious experience. If I fire up my 50 watter (on that 2x12 from the video) in my home studio the SPL'll actually make me dizzy.


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## IbanezMark

To be honest, the new Marshalls are great and versatile but at the end of the day they just don't do much for me. Nothing beats a cranked 4 holer with immense amounts of power tube saturation. 

Sure, I can "replicate" the sound with my DSL, but there's still more to it for me. I've always grown up with vintage stuff and I'm old school at heart. Plus you can't beat the Plexi look!!


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## Frankie

Yeah, I wholeheartedly enjoy playing my buddy's JCM 900, but it's just pure focused gain. I like the slop and power of my older amps. His 100 watt JCM 900 isn't nearly as loud as my 100 watt JCM 800 and my 50 watter doesn't lag too far behind either.


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## Strateuphoria

Frankie said:


> Seems like a lot of people on this forum are too intent on the new models of Marshalls, which I totally agree with and support since it is the Marshall forum afterall, but they forget or just never had a chance to experience the 4 holers. What a 4 holer lacks in front end gain is made up for in spades by breaking up the EL34's in the power section, and the SPL's they push will make you have a religious experience. If I fire up my 50 watter (on that 2x12 from the video) in my home studio the SPL'll actually make me dizzy.



You said it man...


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## diesect20022000

I'm really considering building my own plexi and a JTM45. those are really the two older Marshall amps that "stir my seed"....i get all kinds of warm feelings in my pants when i play them.....maybe i need a diaper.


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## watchtheskies

1986 - 1987 in the vintage section!!

man that makes me feel old


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## ynot

watchtheskies said:


> 1986 - 1987 in the vintage section!!
> 
> man that makes me feel old



Your kidding right?


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## core

So is there any real circuit difference in the later 78-79 4 hole non master volume amps and the early 70's late 60's SPL's?


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## Frankie

core said:


> So is there any real circuit difference in the later 78-79 4 hole non master volume amps and the early 70's late 60's SPL's?



The later model ones are voiced a little more aggressive/trebly and some argue that the component quality went down as the years went on.


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## watchtheskies

ynot said:


> Your kidding right?



no, I bought my first Marshall brand new in 1982, bit strange to think of it as a vintage amp


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## IbanezMark

watchtheskies said:


> no, I bought my first Marshall brand new in 1982, bit strange to think of it as a vintage amp



..and 1982 was 28 years ago!
In the collector car world, it only needs to be 25 years old to be considered a "classic"

:cool2:


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## Lespaulnmarshall

No no no no no!

THIS is what you want sir:


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## IbanezMark

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> No no no no no!
> 
> THIS is what you want sir:



You know it!

:cool2:


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## demonufo

watchtheskies said:


> 1986 - 1987 in the vintage section!!
> 
> man that makes me feel old



Ummm, 1986 and 1987 are models of amps. Not the years they were made.


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## watchtheskies

demonufo said:


> Ummm, 1986 and 1987 are models of amps. Not the years they were made.



yeah you could be right, I just assumed the discussion was about the old vintage amps rather than re-issues, my mistake


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## Frankie

watchtheskies said:


> yeah you could be right, I just assumed the discussion was about the old vintage amps rather than re-issues, my mistake





Man, you're all over the place on this one. Model number 1987 and 1986 amps have been in production since the 60's, so yes, we're talking about old vintage amps still.

Also, a lot of people are starting to consider 80's amps vintage, so you're also in the right to feel old.


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## IbanezMark

Frankie said:


> Man, you're all over the place on this one. Model number 1987 and 1986 amps have been in production since the 60's, so yes, we're talking about old vintage amps still.
> 
> Also, a lot of people are starting to consider 80's amps vintage, so you're also in the right to feel old.



80's amps may be "vintage", but they aren't PLEXIS


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## Giboman

I have a 50w 1986 model from 1973, i dug it out of the loft a few months ago, the cab was still in the garage and is loaded with 1972 Rola Celestion G12m's T1221's with pulsonic 102/3 cones. I owned the complete rig from new and it never left the family home until i reclaimed it years back and stored it away. These old amps were left by the way side with the introduction of the Master volume models, loads of gain at lower volumes..how cool! Since then i worked my way through the lot and have now been using a DSL 100 and V30's for several years and have been very happy with my tone until......you guessed it. I plugged my Les Paul into the old rig and WOW WOW WOW WOW. It makes the DSL sound so artificial, the tone is so rich and full and everything works prefectly. Back in the old days i use to use a volume pedal to keep the db's down but now with the Hotplate this thing really rocks. The only thing i miss is reverb but i'm reluctant to make any mods. The idea was to clean it up and sell the head and speakers, but now i feel 16 again and in love. Maybe i'll hang on to it for a little longer


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## IbanezMark

awesome story man!
That's exactly what the older Marshalls are all about
:cool2:


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## Reginald

janarn said:


> The only difference on early models is the "brightcap".


not different caps up gain too? SBs sounds less gainy than SLs,not? so different caps were there too, suppose


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## Nudge68

I have a '69 1986, '71 1987 and a '78 1987. Accepting these have different valves, the '78 has more gain vs the '71 but not that much more. 

All three are seriously tone-a-luscious. Stick a boost in the front, tweak knobs, and you wouldn't know the difference between them.

Agree re the comment on the 4 holers. I now have a fetish and will happily pick up another. The '77 1959 is a monster but the '73 1968 is sweeeeet as!

Plug in if you ever get the chance, you WILL be blown away!

Cheers,

Matt.


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## Reginald

Nudge68 said:


> I have a '69 1986, '71 1987 and a '78 1987.


 alright. but what about the gain of 1986 Vs 1987 of yours?
Does Superlead have more gain than Superbass or it's the identical same?


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## Nudge68

Reginald said:


> alright. but what about the gain of 1986 Vs 1987 of yours?
> Does Superlead have more gain than Superbass or it's the identical same?



No surprise, 1987 has more than the 1986. The 1959 has about the same at the 1987. The Lead and Bass (1968) from '73 is about the same as the 1986. Can't speak for a Superbass. 

While I'm no expert, the basic circuit between all these are not that much different. I do like the compression of the 50 watters.

... So subjective ... Of course more to an amp that just gain, of course. And many factors influence the tonality of the gain. Each has its flavour 

Cheers,

Matt.


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## strat59

The Old Marshalls are it for me. Plug in , crank up = TONE.

My old '66 JTM-45 Super Trem Bluesbreaker (Head) is all I need. The head version allows the flexability of changing cabs / speakers.


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## Reginald

Nudge68 said:


> I do like the compression of the 50 watters


hi, two ?s please: 
- what stuff is the compression? is a sort of "explosion into a tight pushing" or is the cutting the extreme frequencies?
- why do small/little watters amps have more compression than higher watters ones? technically speaking what does it depend on?


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## Nudge68

.... this is an old thread! 

What I'm basically saying is that I can drive the 50's harder for earlier break-up vs the bigger 100's thrpugh the same cab. Well, I guess that goes for any cab.

The volume differences between the low and high end increase more quickly as you increase the master volume in a 50 watter vs the 100's. Call it "headroom", I guess.

I know I'm not articulating this very well... 

cheers,

Matt.


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## Reginald

thanxs, dont worry. you did your best. i got it. but im inetersted in that "compression" stuff. in a few words the compression permit the amp to cutt some frequencies, expecially bottom and top ones, almost the same as a compressor-pedal does, right? it's cool! the result is a 50 watter amp will produce/get a more focused tighter "compressed" tone than a 100w one.
Cool. i got it.


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## Nudge68

Reginald said:


> thanxs, dont worry. you did your best. i got it. but im inetersted in that "compression" stuff. in a few words the compression permit the amp to cutt some frequencies, expecially bottom and top ones, almost the same as a compressor-pedal does, right? it's cool! the result is a 50 watter amp will produce/get a more focused tighter "compressed" tone than a 100w one.
> Cool. i got it.


 
I'm not saying that 50's compress more than 100's in my experience. Just that I can crank a 50 harder at a lower volume vs a 100 to get that "compressed" nasal in-your-face mid-range grunt


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## Reginald

i had got it, but i think also the compression in general is much higher in 50s than 100s. It's a fact of less "air tone". A 50 amp has less "airy"/open sound than a 100. Two valves Vs four= more compressed sound, suppose.
So it's not jst a matter of which one will get earlier break-up, but a fact of airy sound vs compressed sound. 50watters have more compressed/tighter/focused sound ..its a matter those two power tubes only up 50 amps vs four tubes up 100s


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## damienbeale

When we talk about 50watters compressing more, what we mean is they don't have the dynamic range that the 100watt amps do. In fact transient peaks are more obvious on the 100watt amps. The 50watters tend to sag a little more, and the volume doesn't vary as much when you pick harder with the 50 watt amps when both amps are fully cranked. They are slightly looser in feel, and some say more fluid for lead tones.

The 100watt amps retain a tighter bottom end, and give you more of a kick in the chest. These often make for better chunky rhythm tones.

Many of the 50watt amps of the 70's have a much lower B+ voltage, which is where the differences really lie, as these sag much more, and have even less dynamics as a result of the limitations of the power supply.


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## Nudge68

^ yes, that's it


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## Reginald

thanxs for explaination, damien


damienbeale said:


> and some say more fluid for lead tones


for example as a vox ac30 or a fender champ too when it's on 10, right?


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## damienbeale

Yes, but not quite as much.


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## Viking62

IbanezMark said:


> Damn, Frankie. You're killing me bud.
> This might have to happen sooner than later..
> 
> :cool2:





peterichardz said:


> Metroamps=USA=I can call these guys and stop at the shop!
> Ceriatone=Chinese=Wanted to order parts & my Mastercard wouldn't allow the transfer!



Actually Ceriatone = Malaysian
Both are very good clones, but hey they're just NOT MARSHALL


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## Pleximan

Giboman said:


> I have a 50w 1986 model from 1973, i dug it out of the loft a few months ago, the cab was still in the garage and is loaded with 1972 Rola Celestion G12m's T1221's with pulsonic 102/3 cones. I owned the complete rig from new and it never left the family home until i reclaimed it years back and stored it away. These old amps were left by the way side with the introduction of the Master volume models, loads of gain at lower volumes..how cool! Since then i worked my way through the lot and have now been using a DSL 100 and V30's for several years and have been very happy with my tone until......you guessed it. I plugged my Les Paul into the old rig and WOW WOW WOW WOW. It makes the DSL sound so artificial, the tone is so rich and full and everything works prefectly. Back in the old days i use to use a volume pedal to keep the db's down but now with the Hotplate this thing really rocks. The only thing i miss is reverb but i'm reluctant to make any mods. The idea was to clean it up and sell the head and speakers, but now i feel 16 again and in love. Maybe i'll hang on to it for a little longer


 Mine was a 1972 50 watt 1986 bass amp...but I modded it to be a lead version with PPIMV and it sounds great...


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## soundboy57

Frankie said:


> The later model ones are voiced a little more aggressive/trebly and some argue that the component quality went down as the years went on.



The only difference I have been able to ascertain is the components.

1977 was the last year they used mustard caps throughout...AFAIK...
the subsequent years used various mylar block capacitors, which may/may not sound
different.

My '79 four hole sounds great, FWIW.

It has the same grunt and chunk to it that my '74 has....although they have
totally different board components.


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## damienbeale

soundboy57 said:


> 1977 was the last year they used mustard caps throughout...AFAIK...
> the subsequent years used various mylar block capacitors, which may/may not sound
> different.



Pretty certain those lego blocks are metallised polyester film much like todays Vishay 1822, so not a radical departure from the polyester film/foil caps that came before. I haven't dissected one of these to ascertain though, as I don't have any originals in stock. I don't fancy ripping one of a board just to satisfy my curiosity though.


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