# Power tubes?? Who, What, When Where how??



## Jae

Hello. I'd like for some users here to give us some input about Power tubes. I've heard the thread talking about the preamp tubes and found it very useful, but how about the main power tubes. So far I'm using EL34's, but which make and are there any other good types of tubes for alot of gain, or clean? 

Can you give us a good description about the types of tubes you have or have tried and how they sounded. Which ones can be biased to have maximum gain or which ones have the best clean or both grit and clean?

Is it in fact better to go vintage, than modern? Like the GT tubes made in Russia or China or the Mullards or even Telefunken EL34's.

What are you experiences with these and what type would you recommend for a Marshall amp like a plexi, JMP MV, or even aa vintage modern or Fender Twin??


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## Jesstaa

You cannot beat N.O.S tubes, no questions about it, they were built to high standards, as they were the only viable option back then. Nowdays tubes are produced cheaply, as they're more of a... 'cultist' option (Couldn't think of the right word there).


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## Jae

Jesstaa said:


> You cannot beat N.O.S tubes, no questions about it, they were built to high standards, as they were the only viable option back then. Nowdays tubes are produced cheaply, as they're more of a... 'cultist' option (Couldn't think of the right word there).



Hey thanks alot Jesstaa! I'm looking for some good output tubes on Ebay. I came across some NOS Mullard tubes. Some are xf2-xf4. There is a Mullard from Dynaco as well. Do you know anything about these tubes? 
I hear the Phillips were the first ones produced by Mullard.


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## Jesstaa

Not so great with specific tubes, but Marty talks a lot about them, wait until he finds this thread, he'll give you a good incite, but oh man, with the rep he gives them, and his experience, I would LOVE a nice set of Mullard EL34s (And my amp modded to EL34). Give you the real classic metal tone.


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## Jae

Jesstaa said:


> Not so great with specific tubes, but Marty talks a lot about them, wait until he finds this thread, he'll give you a good incite, but oh man, with the rep he gives them, and his experience, I would LOVE a nice set of Mullard EL34s (And my amp modded to EL34). Give you the real classic metal tone.



I think I'm going to get a pair of Mullards. It's good to be able to get a decent set of output tubes.


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## Jae

Also, just out of curiosity. What is it exactly that people find so alluring about Mullards in terms of sound. I've never tried them before, so can't say.


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## Jesstaa

I think it's just the fact they're so rich and full with their tone, and a nice full tone RULES.


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## rockinr0ll

lol at the thread title.


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## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> You cannot beat N.O.S tubes, no questions about it, they were built to high standards, as they were the only viable option back then. Nowdays tubes are produced cheaply, as they're more of a... 'cultist' option (Couldn't think of the right word there).



Jesstaa is one of the regulars on the Preamp Thread. Months ago, we expanded into talking about all of the tubes in a Marshall, but we mainly are preamp tube rollers looking for the best sound. Our experimentation has paid off and we have come up with certain tube combination's for certain Marshall amps.

If your preamp tubes are sounding like crap, your power tubes are going to amplify it. Therefore, tweaking your preamp tubes is the first step to achieving killer sound. Once the preamp tubes are taken care of, we can move on to the power section.

NOS vs Current Production (CP)-There is no comparison. NOS power tubes simply rule. You can talk about how good your JJ's sound or your Winged =C='s, but they are way behind an NOS tube in quality. First off, an NOS EL34 is rated for 800V on the plates. When they were tested, they were burned in at 600V. This is as high as you can go safely with an octal base. Going higher increases the chance of high voltage arcing. 

Side note: There are certain online tube seller's that have a bunch of B-Stock EL34 tubes. Beware! They are listed as having a limit to the voltage they can take. Stay away from these "bargain" NOS tubes. They're crap.

Most modern EL34's are burned in at 400 to 450 volts. This is at or below what a Marshall power supply puts out. In fact, if you have certain models of Marshall amps the HT can be higher than 600V. I would strongly recommend using NOS tubes only in an amp like that.

When a CP power tube is burned in, there are many that fail. Those that pass are boxed up for sale or for OE use on an amp. I have talked to many employee's of the big music stores and they say it is a crap shoot every time they turn an amp on for the first time. This is due to a high failure rate of the power tubes that supposedly tested good.

I have been on the forum now long enough to see that someone will buy a matched set of CP tubes and within a week or a month, one will fail. This failure causes a great amount of current to pass and one bad tube can take out the others. If this happens, usually there is board damage, component damage and possibly a fried output or power transformer.

This is why I use NOS tubes. They are reliable. Do they cost more? Yes. You can get a matched quad of RFT's for $199 on EBAY. I highly recommend them. They add so much depth to your sound. They reflect the tone of the preamp tubes with ease. RFT's have a tight bass, pronounced, articulate mid's and a sparkle on the high end. A beautiful sounding power tube and worth the money. On top of that, NOS tubes last longer, because they are built better and designed to take more power.

I have an amp with xf2 Mullards. Wonderful sounding tubes. These are a little warmer in the midrange compared to the RFT's. The RFT's tend to break up at lower volume over the Mullards, but not by much. Not really a fair comparison due to different amps with different speakers, but turning up the volume, you can tell when the power tubes kick in and when they start to sing.

I would tell someone to get some good preamp tubes first, especially for V1 and V2. This should make a big improvement in your sound. If you are happy with your CP power tubes, then stay with them. However, if you want to take the next step, then you will want NOS power tubes. Those of you with 50 watt amps can pick up a pair for $70 to $99 a pair. Not bad, considering all the improvements you will get.

I have a lot of experience with CP tubes and a lot of people on the forum are always asking about which one to buy? It's like buying speakers, it's what sounds best to you...not me. For those of you who are happy with CP tubes, I say try different kinds out, because one brand may sound better in your amp over another brand. Don't buy the cheapest tube, you get what you pay for. I still think the quality of a Russian CP tube beats out a Chinese tube. The other thing is to remember that a lot of companies that sell tubes do not make tubes. Did you get that? There is a lot of relabeling going on and some of it is illegal. You can't get a 12AX7 Telefunken new for $30. It's a fake made in China. Only buy from a reputable company. Some relabeled tubes are very good and others are crap. There are also some new tube companies that are stirring up the tube community with their new tubes. Tech Tube is one of them. They are making 12AX7's at the old Mullard Blackburn factory. Due to legal issue's they cannot call themselves Mullard. However, their product is steadily getting better and I think by the beginning of 2010, they should have a solid product on the market that will rival the sound of any NOS tube. They have plans to make EL34's as well.

In closing, I understand that some of you are very loyal to the type of CP power tubes you use and that's not a problem. Not everyone is going to make the switch to NOS power tubes. I'm just pointing out that there are advantages to using NOS. I feel safer using NOS in my amps, because they are so damn dependable.


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## Jae

Wow! Thank you so much for the in depth explanation. 
I found that very very helpful. 

There is a quad set called Dynaco by Mullard that are xf2s that I'm interested in. Are these any good? Three of them are matched at 3800 MHOS (not sure what is meant by that). Again, I know it would be difficult to tell without actually hearing them, but I'm going to jump this one and go for them. These are also double o gettters (i'm not sure exactly what the difference would be in sound compared to a single o getter?? do you know??) I just know that the getters collect some unwanted electrical current or something like that (sorry for being stupid.)

I've never heard of Dynaco by Mullard, but I heard that no matter what a Mullard is a Mullard and doesn't matter what label they are under. Of course these are used old tubes from Gr. Britain.


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## Jae

I also have another question. I'm not sure what you meant by B-stock el34s. Are you talking about a reissue tube? Or one that has been "restored" to original. I've heard of some tube sellers who do some kind of cryogenic thing to them, not sure what that is or if it makes the tube that much more better sounding.


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## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Wow! Thank you so much for the in depth explanation.
> I found that very very helpful.
> 
> There is a quad set called Dynaco by Mullard that are xf2s that I'm interested in. Are these any good? Three of them are matched at 3800 MHOS (not sure what is meant by that). Again, I know it would be difficult to tell without actually hearing them, but I'm going to jump this one and go for them. These are also double o gettters (i'm not sure exactly what the difference would be in sound compared to a single o getter?? do you know??) I just know that the getters collect some unwanted electrical current or something like that (sorry for being stupid.)
> 
> I've never heard of Dynaco by Mullard, but I heard that no matter what a Mullard is a Mullard and doesn't matter what label they are under. Of course these are used old tubes from Gr. Britain.



Not stupid at all. The xf2 is a very desirable EL34 and they can be pricey. The Dynaco label means they were made for Dynaco amps, but they are still xf2 Mullards. When a tube is made the virgin getter contains barium. A vacuum is pulled and as much air and gas is removed as possible. The glass tip on the bottom of the tube is heated and the glass is soft. Once the vacuum is complete, the air hole is sealed off with hot glass. Once the glass cools, the getter(s) are heated and the "flashing" splatters on the inside of the tube. This splattering removes the last of the excess air and gas. Additionally, the getters continue to work throughout the life of the tube. If a tube develops a leak, the getter will turn white. Do not ever buy a tube with white inside of it. It is shot.

In power tubes, two getters are more desirable. They may not be any better than a single getter, but dual getter tubes demand more money.

If you are buying a "matched" set of quads and three measure at 3800, what does the fourth tube measure at? If it is way off, it will not bias right in your amp. MHOS is a unit for measuring transconductance. Transconductance is the opposite of resistance. Engineers decided to spell OHM's backwards and came up with MHO's.

All I can tell you is that an xf2 is a very good tube. However, make sure all four tubes are within a certain range, or you will not be able to use them in a 100 watt amp. If the other tube reads 3400-3600, you should be fine.


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## Jae

Hey Marty, Thanks alot for this amazing info. and for putting up with my lack of knowledge.

Sorry, the tubes measure at 5800, 5800, 5800 and 5700 mhos. I have a Superlead that I can put them in, or maybe put the two matched ones in my Marshall '78 JMP 50W.

The price is sky high though, but I'm willing to pay that price to hopefully get that tone. Even though it doesn't work out, I'm willing to pay to try, cause that's the only way to get there, right?


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## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> I also have another question. I'm not sure what you meant by B-stock el34s. Are you talking about a reissue tube? Or one that has been "restored" to original. I've heard of some tube sellers who do some kind of cryogenic thing to them, not sure what that is or if it makes the tube that much more better sounding.



B-Stock refers to a batch of NOS tubes that do not meet NOS specification. In this case, instead of being able to handle 800V on the plates, they can only handle about half of that. With a B-Stock tube, what that means is you are sticking a tube in your amp that may not be able to handle the 450V on the plates. Internal arcing and shorting can occur and this can cause serious amp problems. Usually, you will blow a fuse before any real damage can occur. These are not reissue tubes. However, many current production (CP) tubes are not happy when the plate voltage exceeds 450. What happens is the tube will wear out faster than normal. 

When it comes to freezing tubes, I have to ask the following. If it's such a good idea, why didn't they do it back in the 50's and 60's? I'm not a fan of this whole cyrogenic process. I think it is just another gimmick to get a few more bucks off of a customer.


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## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey Marty, Thanks alot for this amazing info. and for putting up with my lack of knowledge.
> 
> Sorry, the tubes measure at 5800, 5800, 5800 and 5700 mhos. I have a Superlead that I can put them in, or maybe put the two matched ones in my Marshall '78 JMP 50W.
> 
> The price is sky high though, but I'm willing to pay that price to hopefully get that tone. Even though it doesn't work out, I'm willing to pay to try, cause that's the only way to get there, right?



That's still a matched quad and a good one at that. The difference between 5800 and 5700 is not a problem at all. Let me know how much you paid for them if you win them. If you don't want to post it, leave me a PM.

They will sound killer in a Super Lead. Also, a Super Lead is one of the amps that can have high plate voltage, so the xf2's would work out perfectly.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> B-Stock refers to a batch of NOS tubes that do not meet NOS specification. In this case, instead of being able to handle 800V on the plates, they can only handle about half of that. With a B-Stock tube, what that means is you are sticking a tube in your amp that may not be able to handle the 450V on the plates. Internal arcing and shorting can occur and this can cause serious amp problems. Usually, you will blow a fuse before any real damage can occur. These are not reissue tubes. However, many current production (CP) tubes are not happy when the plate voltage exceeds 450. What happens is the tube will wear out faster than normal.
> 
> When it comes to freezing tubes, I have to ask the following. If it's such a good idea, why didn't they do it back in the 50's and 60's? I'm not a fan of this whole cyrogenic process. I think it is just another gimmick to get a few more bucks off of a customer.



Is there any way of knowing if the tubes are in fact b-stock? I mean they could still have close to high test readings for a new tube, but may still not be able to handle the voltage of a Superlead.

I agree, I think the freezing of the tubes is some srot of gimmick, like you said, why didn't they do it in the 60's.

I'll let you know how much I paid for them.


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## Jae

I went up to a local guy here and he has a pair of Mullard xf2's with the original boxes and matched. I checked it out and found that one of them had a bit of the logo rubbed off , but he insists that these are NOS. They haven't been used according to him. I might get a pair and put it in my 50 watter. He's charging $350 US for the pair.
This seems like a lot of money since I managed to get a quad for about that much, but the quad was used. 

The ones this guy is selling is NOS. Is this a good deal?


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## MartyStrat54

A guy on EBAY has a pair of used xf2's that are super strong and a very close match. He is wanting $150 for the pair. I think $350 for unverified NOS is way too much.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> A guy on EBAY has a pair of used xf2's that are super strong and a very close match. He is wanting $150 for the pair. I think $350 for unverified NOS is way too much.



really, $150. That's a good deal. Can't find it though. Maybe it has ended.


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## MartyStrat54

Nice Matched Pair of Mullard xf2 DBL Halo EL34 Tubes - eBay (item 350247622709 end time Sep-11-09 18:31:18 PDT)

I'm doing you a favor. Hurry before I buy them.


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## steelhorse

Hey Marty since the 6550 and the KT88's are essentially the same tube )I realize the KT=kinkless triode) why are they considered as different tonally as they are?

They're not even separated as being part of the same family but different but they are considered one in the same by many dealers.


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## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> Hey Marty since the 6550 and the KT88's are essentially the same tube )I realize the KT=kinkless triode) why are they considered as different tonally as they are?
> 
> They're not even separated as being part of the same family but different but they are considered one in the same by many dealers.



In an effort not to cause confusion, I am changing things a bit here. The KT (Kinkless Tetrode) are also called beam power tetrode. How these parts operate under a normal load is how they get their name. In a KT tube, the operating curve is smooth, with no "kinks" in it. Some beam power tubes will get a kink in the flow of their electrons when they are operating near max output levels. Think of it as bending a water hose that is on. You put a "kink" in the hose and it restricts the flow of the water. In the very early development stages, M-O-V could not get the design to work. They had a sharing agreement with RCA. RCA was able to get the design to work. This tube became the 6L6. M-O-V came out with the KT66 in 1936 (so the 6L6 is older). This is were the "tree" starts and apparently there is a connection between a 6550 and a KT88, just as there is between a KT66 and a 6L6. They are all beam tetrode power tubes. 6CA7/EL34's are power pentodes and are of differing construction.

Although a 6550 is "in" with nu metal and other metal music, the fact is, the KT88 has less distortion and breakup than a 6550. That is why a KT88 is desirable for use in Hi Fi amps. A KT88 push-pull pair in class AB1 fixed bias is capable of 100 watts of output with 2.5% total harmonic distortion or up to about 50W at low distortion in hi-fi applications. The 6550 supposedly can put out 100 watts per pair, but the THD is much higher.

As I said the 6550 is a big 6L6, the KT88 was derived from a transmitting tube that could handle 1250 volts on the plate. The KT88 is the big bad ass, but of course there were bigger models that are no longer in production, such as the KT90 and the KT100. I have heard that a Chinese tube maker is trying to recreate these tube. 

The KT88 was designed purely for an audio application. The 6550 was designed to operate power servo's. They both have clean sounds, but the KT88 is cleaner. The KT88 can take 800 on the plates and the 6550 is rated at 600. Either one of these tubes can handle the higher plate output of say a Super Lead without fear of a melt down. Tone wise I will pick a KT88 and I would love to have a 50 watt 800 with a pair of them. Of course, my KT88's would have to be real ones.

In closing, the break up of these tubes is much different. The 6550 will break up faster than a KT88. This by itself creates a difference in the tubes and how they sound. From a pure audio aspect, the KT88 is a more musical sounding tube. However, it is hard to get natural breakup from a KT88. You would need a distortion pedal, because even if you dimed the amp with KT88's, it would still be pretty clean sounding. Loud as hell, but clean.

I wanted to add that new production KT88's such as JJ's do not exhibit the same tone and distortion characteristics as an NOS KT88. A new JJ KT88 for instances will not handle the same plate voltage and will break up earlier when driven hard. The same holds true for current production 6550's. My above remarks were made based on NOS tubes. Current production 6550's and KT88's could be similar in construction and sound. This is because a lot of tube manufacturers use the same internal parts for different tubes. I haven't been able to compare "new" 6550's with "new" KT88's. There might not be much difference, because they could very well be the same, or almost the same tube. Maybe in the future they will call them KT6550's and KT6L6's.


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## steelhorse

Unless you get a 2203KK 

Thanks for the detailed but easy to understand explanation Marty, I knew I could count on you!


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## steelhorse

p.s. what would you consider to be 'real' KT88's?


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## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> Unless you get a 2203KK
> 
> Thanks for the detailed but easy to understand explanation Marty, I knew I could count on you!



Doesn't the KK use the famous clipping diodes?


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## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> p.s. what would you consider to be 'real' KT88's?



M-O-V, or MO Valve, or real Genalex Gold Lions. They were made from 1956 until 1988. A quad of real Gold Lion KT88's run about $150 to $200 for each tube, or $800 for a quad. Still interested?


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## steelhorse

MartyStrat54 said:


> M-O-V, or MO Valve, or real Genalex Gold Lions. They were made from 1956 until 1988. A quad of real Gold Lion KT88's run about $150 to $200 for each tube, or $800 for a quad. Still interested?



Not really. I'm certain I can get great tone out of the stock tubes and improve them with JJ's later.


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## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> Not really. I'm certain I can get great tone out of the stock tubes and improve them with JJ's later.



Well I was sorta joking as that is to rich for even me. I think Viking has his amp sounding really sweet with new production tubes. It can be done. The main thing to remember is that you are not going to get 200 watts out of four KT88's in an 800. First off, you are limited by the power supply. So the tubes are basically gonna run in the 25 watt a piece range. You have to have power to make power. However, running a tube under its rating means that you should get great tube life.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice Matched Pair of Mullard xf2 DBL Halo EL34 Tubes - eBay (item 350247622709 end time Sep-11-09 18:31:18 PDT)
> 
> I'm doing you a favor. Hurry before I buy them.



Hey all. Thanks for all these great posts. I find them very informative and I'm learning about different tubes besides the El34s. Keep it coming!

BTW, Marty, I asked the guy if he ships to Canada. His reply:

"That's correct. I don't ship to Canada."
I hope he doesn't have anything against Canadians (lol).

So I guess you better buy them, or you probably already have what you like anyways.


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## MartyStrat54

Just curious. Is there anyone using Sylvania "FAT BOY" 6L6GC's in their amps? This is to include the original, the STR387 and the STR415. These are some bad ass 6L6's and I would like to hear from anyone that uses them on how they sound and their reliability.

Also, there was an STR416. This was an EL34 used mainly in Boogies back in the early 80's, like a Mark II. Anyone have any of these?

If you run NOS 6L6's or EL34's, please post and let us know what you are running.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just curious. Is there anyone using Sylvania "FAT BOY" 6L6GC's in their amps? This is to include the original, the STR387 and the STR415. These are some bad ass 6L6's and I would like to hear from anyone that uses them on how they sound and their reliability.
> 
> Also, there was an STR416. This was an EL34 used mainly in Boogies back in the early 80's, like a Mark II. Anyone have any of these?
> 
> If you run NOS 6L6's or EL34's, please post and let us know what you are running.




I recently got a quad Sylvania Fat boy 6CA7s, but they are probably not the same ones you are talking about, or are they? If I remember correctly or maybe not, I heard they are essentially 6L6s?

The quad is coming in on Tuesday I'm guessing. Can't wait to get them put in.
BTW, if there is anyone here familiar with tube biasing please tell me what you know. Is it better to bias them yourself or in fact get an amp tech to do it at a price. I mean, is it risky doing it yourself if you don't have a clue about biasing a tube, but want to jump in an do it? (That's me). I've heard of people biasing and doing it themselves, but I never got around to actually doing it. I think if I had a chance I could save myself a few bucks. 

Being able to do it myself would also allow me to throw in and experiment as many tubes I can without the extra fee. Or is it really that simple?

I have a couple of JMP Superleads and a '78 JMP Master, which I don't want to damage due to bad biasing. 

Is it also dangerous to do? 

Another question is.. What are some really good tube biasing kits or equipment ( i heard about Webers being good).


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## Jae

Hey Marty,

So I found out that at least one of the telefunkens I have is a smooth plate. I ended up getting a pair of ribbed plate Tele's and a separate smooth Tele. 

I haven't compared the two side by side, but will do so when I get the chance. From the looks of it the smooth plate was the better one. Another guy told me this was a good one.


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## Jae

Sorry, the last post was psoted in the wrong section. Stupid me.


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## MartyStrat54

Hey, those 6CA7's are like EL34's, not 6L6's. A 6CA7 is an American sub for a British EL34.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, those 6CA7's are like EL34's, not 6L6's. A 6CA7 is an American sub for a British EL34.



Oops. I may be wrong. I heard they are similar to another type of tube, not sure if it was EL34s. Something about not being pentodes, but beams. That's all I could muster up.


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## Jesstaa

Yo Marty, if I were to chuck some N.O.S KT66's in my amp, what kinda thing would I expect? I'm looking to experiment a little, and I definitely want some N.O.S tubes.

Also, what N.O.S KT66s kick the most ass?


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## RiverRatt

Can someone tell me when the St. Petersburg factory quit making EL34 tubes under the Svetlana brand? I have a set from around 1999 and was wondering if they are from the Xpo-pul factory or not.

My GTEL34M's are drifting way too much lately. I've rebiased them every week for the past month or so and they are always 4 or 5mV apart. I put in the Svets I was keeping for an emergency and they sound a lot better than I remembered. 

I guess it's time to bite the bullet and pick up some RFT's.


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## Lespaulnmarshall

I Love the stock KT 66's in my Vintage Modern, And for a Plexi I like KT 88's ! The stock KT 66's in the VM are pretty good but maybe I'll change them for some Grove Tube KT 66's.


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## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Yo Marty, if I were to chuck some N.O.S KT66's in my amp, what kinda thing would I expect? I'm looking to experiment a little, and I definitely want some N.O.S tubes.
> 
> Also, what N.O.S KT66s kick the most ass?



Well, a 6L6 and a KT66 are both beam power tubes. There is a lot of history that ties these two tubes together. With that being said, the sound of a KT66 is very similar to a 6L6. There are a lot of good NOS choices for 6L6 tubes at a reasonable price. However, NOS KT66's are much rarer (in the USA) and they are very expensive. Based on that, I would probably go with current production if I wanted to try KT66's.. 

I think if my amp had 6L6GC's in it, I would find myself some NOS 6L6's and go that route.


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## Jae

Ok. Today I ended up purchasing an exact matched NOS pair Mullard xf2 El34s with double Os.. They look immaculate.

I'm going to have them installed and biased tommorrow on my JMP '78 Masterlead 50W head. The tubes in there now are GT EL34's.

I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, those xf2's are still for sale on EBAY. I thought that someone would have grabbed them by now.


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## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, those xf2's are still for sale on EBAY. I thought that someone would have grabbed them by now.



Yeah, I got mine from a local here. They are new and have been tested and matched. The one still on ebay I was going to buy, but they don't ship to Canada. They seem like a good pair though and good price.


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## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, a 6L6 and a KT66 are both beam power tubes. There is a lot of history that ties these two tubes together. With that being said, the sound of a KT66 is very similar to a 6L6. There are a lot of good NOS choices for 6L6 tubes at a reasonable price. However, NOS KT66's are much rarer (in the USA) and they are very expensive. Based on that, I would probably go with current production if I wanted to try KT66's..
> 
> I think if my amp had 6L6GC's in it, I would find myself some NOS 6L6's and go that route.



Alright, I'll keep an eye out for some 6L6's, but in a month or so I'll be taking my amp to the shop, so I'll probs have it set up for EL34s with just a cheapish quad chucked in, until I can get some big guns in there, like some nice Mullards *drools*


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## Jesstaa

Oh and Marty, EH have a KT90 out.


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## Jae

Can't wait to get the Mullard pair in there today.

BTW, I've always been going to the amp tech to get power tubes biased. Does anyone here know what power tube biasing kits there are?

I know there is the weber bias rite. Is that any good?

I think if I'm going to swap some power tubes it's probably better for me to do it myself then go to the shop and pay $$$$ plus the gas and mileage.


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## Jesstaa

All you need is a simple multimeter which reads out in mV or mA, an octal base bias probe, and a small, insulated screw driver (And preferably an amp stand or vice or something to hold your amp firmly on it's side/upside down whilst you bias it, the 900 is really awkward for biasing unless you have a vice or some shit)


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## RiverRatt

You can take the back cover off the head, slip the chassis out and lay the head box face down, and the chassis will rest upside down in it nicely. It makes a good platform to work on the guts if you don't have access to a proper workbench, and you can still get to all the jacks, knobs and switches. It works with my DSL, and I would think the 900 is the same dimensions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Oh and Marty, EH have a KT90 out.



Thanks Jesstaa. I forgot about EH. There are several other companies that will be selling them soon including a KT100.

As I said, you have to have power to make power. Putting KT88's in an 800 isn't going to turn it into a 200 watt amp. The 88's will run under their rating at about 25 watts. Same with the KT90's and 100's. You have to have a massive power supply to get 200 watts out of four of these tubes. There are several power amps make in Hong Kong that use KT90's and KT100's. I guess that's why it is a Chinese company that is going to make these tubes. Anyway, the power transformer is the size of a shithouse. I wouldn't want to be bit by the high voltage of that amp. Probably running close to 600 on the plates.

I think 88's will be the biggest you will see in guitar amps since it is a replacement for 6550. I don't see anyone going bigger. If they do, it's just for show. It won't make the amp any more powerful.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks Jesstaa. I forgot about EH. There are several other companies that will be selling them soon including a KT100.
> 
> As I said, you have to have power to make power. Putting KT88's in an 800 isn't going to turn it into a 200 watt amp. The 88's will run under their rating at about 25 watts. Same with the KT90's and 100's. You have to have a massive power supply to get 200 watts out of four of these tubes. There are several power amps make in Hong Kong that use KT90's and KT100's. I guess that's why it is a Chinese company that is going to make these tubes. Anyway, the power transformer is the size of a shithouse. I wouldn't want to be bit by the high voltage of that amp. Probably running close to 600 on the plates.
> 
> I think 88's will be the biggest you will see in guitar amps since it is a replacement for 6550. I don't see anyone going bigger. If they do, it's just for show. It won't make the amp any more powerful.



Yeah, I wouldn't mind building a 50/50 HiFi power amp with some KT90's or 100's, I'm getting fed up with the thin sound from all my solid state stereos, oh well, at least the stereo I have next to me is fairly decent


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Yeah, I wouldn't mind building a 50/50 HiFi power amp with some KT90's or 100's, I'm getting fed up with the thin sound from all my solid state stereos, oh well, at least the stereo I have next to me is fairly decent



I hear ya on the "thin sound." I have two, high end solid state amps (transistors, none of that IC shit). However, I like the sound of my little stereo EL84 amp. Man, my CD's sound so good through that. I have been thinking about getting an all tube amp like a Dynaco that uses two EL34's per side for about 35 watts per channel. However, it will make more power, but the THD goes up. Most HiFi amps are rated below one per cent THD. Even so, 35 watts of tube power sounds huge. I mean I don't even crank my EL84 amp up. The loudest I played it is around 3/4 of full volume. I picked that little amp up for $85 bucks. It needed a little work and I took care of that and put some modern inputs and outputs on it and an "On/Off" switch. It originally came out of a Wurlitzer organ. I changed the power filter caps out and the amp is almost dead quiet. I custom built some high efficiency speakers for it. What really makes it rock is when I use a powered sub with it. The sub goes up to 100Hz and the other two speakers take everything else. Man, it makes that 20 watt per channel amp sound frickin' huge.

Tube amps...you just got to love them.


----------



## Caseyguitar33

I HAVE A JCM 2000 TSL and it does not sound as great as it use to . Should I replace only the pre and power tubes. The transformer? 

I am looking for a very modern modern rock sound. The amp sounded awsome when I got brand new in in 2001. It is dull sounding compared to what it use to be or a new one at the store. I have had mullard tubes put in on the power amp section and groove tubes on the pre amp section 3 or 4 months ago. May amp sounds more ac/dcish instead of hard rock/ish?

Should I bias it hotter? Will the tubes have a shorter life if I do this?

What brand tubes (pre and power) can any one recommend? Transformer?
I have been told slavana tubes.(spelling?). I was told thats what Marshall mainly put those tubes in the JCM series for a while? 

I need help. I tour and play about 200 shows a year so my amp sound is very important to me. I have about $500 or so to spend. PLeas let me know your recommendations. 
Casey Prezioso

I play Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 100 triple lead
A custom shop Gibson Les Paul.
A fender Strat With Hot Rail pick ups in the bridge.
An Ltd mh401.An a few assorted Ibanez guitars.


----------



## Jae

Yeah, that's a good question. Whether biasing it hot will wear the tubes faster. Will it wear the preamp tubes faster too?? That question will be left for Marty.

I recently put my amp in for biasing. It's being replaced iwth two NOS Mullard xf2s with double o. I aksed the amp tech to specifically bias it hot or as hot as it could go so that amp will run safely. However, the xf2 are a really good pair and maybe it was not such a good iea to bias it a bit on the hot side. Would they in fact wear out REALLY fast? I wouldn't mind that if they were GT's or something like that, but Mullard xf2s? i'd like to have them in there as long as possible. 

The amp tech told me he doesn't like to bias amps too hot anyway, because it might do damage to the OT. I'm sure he not going to bias it like that, hopefully just enough to have the tubes run safely and the amp run safely without wearing the tubes out in a year.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Caseyguitar33 said:


> I HAVE A JCM 2000 TSL and it does not sound as great as it use to . Should I replace only the pre and power tubes. The transformer?
> 
> I am looking for a very modern modern rock sound. The amp sounded awsome when I got brand new in in 2001. It is dull sounding compared to what it use to be or a new one at the store. I have had mullard tubes put in on the power amp section and groove tubes on the pre amp section 3 or 4 months ago. May amp sounds more ac/dcish instead of hard rock/ish?
> 
> Should I bias it hotter? Will the tubes have a shorter life if I do this?
> 
> What brand tubes (pre and power) can any one recommend? Transformer?
> I have been told slavana tubes.(spelling?). I was told thats what Marshall mainly put those tubes in the JCM series for a while?
> 
> I need help. I tour and play about 200 shows a year so my amp sound is very important to me. I have about $500 or so to spend. PLeas let me know your recommendations.
> Casey Prezioso
> 
> I play Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 100 triple lead
> A custom shop Gibson Les Paul.
> A fender Strat With Hot Rail pick ups in the bridge.
> An Ltd mh401.An a few assorted Ibanez guitars.



Hey Casey! Reading through your post I see that you used to like how your TSL 100 sounded. That being said, I think you don't need to do a transformer upgrade. I also see that you play 200 shows a year and you haven't changed your tubes since 2001. Any reason for this? Were you aware that tubes wear out and that a heavily gigged amp should have the tubes changed about every 12 months? You've been very lucky. Most people who tour as hard as you keep one or two spare sets of tubes and they or their soundman, knows how to bias an amp. When was the last time the amp was biased?

Let me know more about the amp and then I should be able to make some further comments.


----------



## Jae

Caseyguitar33 said:


> I HAVE A JCM 2000 TSL and it does not sound as great as it use to . Should I replace only the pre and power tubes. The transformer?
> 
> I am looking for a very modern modern rock sound. The amp sounded awsome when I got brand new in in 2001. It is dull sounding compared to what it use to be or a new one at the store. I have had mullard tubes put in on the power amp section and groove tubes on the pre amp section 3 or 4 months ago. May amp sounds more ac/dcish instead of hard rock/ish?
> 
> Should I bias it hotter? Will the tubes have a shorter life if I do this?
> 
> What brand tubes (pre and power) can any one recommend? Transformer?
> I have been told slavana tubes.(spelling?). I was told thats what Marshall mainly put those tubes in the JCM series for a while?
> 
> I need help. I tour and play about 200 shows a year so my amp sound is very important to me. I have about $500 or so to spend. PLeas let me know your recommendations.
> Casey Prezioso
> 
> I play Marshall JCM 2000 TSL 100 triple lead
> A custom shop Gibson Les Paul.
> A fender Strat With Hot Rail pick ups in the bridge.
> An Ltd mh401.An a few assorted Ibanez guitars.



I think you meant Svetlana. They are Russian made tubes. You might like them.

I would throw in some NOS or vintage Mullards in there. I like the NOS better these days and it sound more warm. The OT, I wouldn't want to replace if I were you. You might want to try the flter caps, as they might be wearing down. The OT would be the last thing I'd want to change in any amp, just because. But who knows, someone else might have a different opinion.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Casey! Reading through your post I see that you used to like how your TSL 100 sounded. That being said, I think you don't need to do a transformer upgrade. I also see that you play 200 shows a year and you haven't changed your tubes since 2001. Any reason for this? Were you aware that tubes wear out and that a heavily gigged amp should have the tubes changed about every 12 months? You've been very lucky. Most people who tour as hard as you keep one or two spare sets of tubes and they or their soundman, knows how to bias an amp. When was the last time the amp was biased?
> 
> Let me know more about the amp and then I should be able to make some further comments.



I was reading it again and it looks like he replaced them 3 or 4 months ago according to what he wrote. I missed it the first time through too.



> I have had mullard tubes put in on the power amp section and groove tubes on the pre amp section 3 or 4 months ago. May amp sounds more ac/dcish instead of hard rock/ish?/QUOTE]


----------



## Jae

Just thought I'd ramble about five Sylvania tubes I recieved today. I'm going to have them put in tommorrow into a '67 Superlead.

These are the Fat Boy Sylvanias made in the US.
The first four from the left have been used, but very low hours. The last one with the Sylvania box is NOS/NIB. That was a deal the guy gave me.

The last pic is a closeup of the NOS tube. They look good! Can't wait.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh man those are beautiful 6CA7's (EL34's). Yeah, Sylvania had it going on when they made these tubes. RCA was already slowing their tube production down and sending it over to Japan. Not Sylvania. They kept their factories going until selling out to Philips in 1984. Sylvania made the standard Fat Boy, that was used in many Peavey amps and then the STR387 with the pink ceramic bases used as OE in certain amps and then the STR415 and 416. These were Fat Boy Black Plate tubes. The 415 was a 6L6GC and the 416 was an EL34.

Those are awesome tubes. Better than RCA and RCA bought most of their 6CA7's from Sylvania. I think they were the best American made 6CA7's.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh man those are beautiful 6CA7's (EL34's). Yeah, Sylvania had it going on when they made these tubes. RCA was already slowing their tube production down and sending it over to Japan. Not Sylvania. They kept their factories going until selling out to Philips in 1984. Sylvania made the standard Fat Boy, that was used in many Peavey amps and then the STR387 with the pink ceramic bases used as OE in certain amps and then the STR415 and 416. These were Fat Boy Black Plate tubes. The 415 was a 6L6GC and the 416 was an EL34.
> 
> Those are awesome tubes. Better than RCA and RCA bought most of their 6CA7's from Sylvania. I think they were the best American made 6CA7's.




Yeah, I sent them over to the amp tech to get them installed (sorry, I don't know how to bias an amp yet).

It'll probably be a week cause that guy is booked to his neck right now.

I heard that these are actually a hybrid between a 6L6 and an EL34. Of course essentiall they are EL34's, right?

BTW, I got my '78 MV Marshall in today with the Mullard EL34 OO getters. I'll show yo some pics later!


----------



## Jae

These are the Mullard El34 xf2 with double OOs I got back today installed in my '78 JMP MV. These were supposedly NOS and matched, so I was excited about getting these in. The amp has got alot of that bottom end now. I don't know if it is these Mullards, but the amp is very warm sounding, which I like.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You have good camera skills and that is always a plus on a thread. Yeah the Mullards look real nice in that amp. Sort of how it looked when it was a new amp with Mullards. Think about that for a while. Let all of these guys running the new tubes know how the old tubes sound.

Let's see...a real Mullard EL34 or a JJ? Which would I pick?

Oh, I meant to add that I run Mullard xf2's in my TSL602. I had all NOS preamp tubes in it, but the Mullard EL34's were the icing on the cake.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know Jae, I wanted to tell you something. Most guys get these really nice older Marshall amps and then they stick the cheapest power tubes in them that they can find, but not you. You got a couple of really nice amps and you went the extra mile and put great NOS tubes in them. I tip my hat to you. Way to go.


----------



## Jae

Yeah, I agree 100%. When I got the Marshall JMP '78, there were some GT EL34s in there. Not saying they are bad tubes, but the amp actually didn't have that bottom end. I didn't even check what preamp tubes were in there, we'll get back to that later.

But I blew one of the power tubes (my fault for running it without a speaker cabinet, stupid me.) Then me, still a novice in tube world just bought the nearest GT EL34's again. Slapped them in. I tell you, there was just no bottom end again. I just figured that it's a vintage amp, so it's not as powerful as before. But it was harsh sounding too at higher volumes.

Today I stuck these Mullards in there and there was the bottom end I didn't even know this amp could produce. 

I have to tell you. I never even opened the covers for the preamp tubes the whole time I had it (lol). Until I found that people swap these preamp tubes quite frequently. This other guy I met started to take them right out while the amp was on standby and i didn't even know you could touch these things. I thought they were like touching a hot stove. (i burned my hand once real bad playing around with my 5W Fender Champ amp from one of the tubes inside so I never got near them for awhile.)

I opened up the cans, and there was not a single Mullard, Telefunken or anything like that, just CP tubes. I don't want to bad mouth CP tubes, but after trying the NOS, I don't think I'll ever go back.

Yeah, the guy who had it before me didn't know about all that I guess and had all the CPs in there. Now the amp sounds ALOT warmer, has sustain and bottom end and that punch.

Thanks to everyone here especially Marty. 

I'm not done yet though, I'll post some more good pics of other things I can get. I'm planning to replace the tubes in all my amps with Mullards or Tele's. I also have another quad Mullard xf2's OOs matched coming in soon hopefully and I can post some good pics for you guys. This forum has been really good to me. Thanks!

And I agree totally Marty. Why do these people have a good vintage amp and put in crappy CP tubes in? 
I don't mind spending a little more to get a better tone and experimenting. Some people I feel are too scared to experiment (I myself was before, not knowing alot). I say make a good investment and get better tone, not stick some cheap CP tubes in and get bad tone.

But then again it's all preference. My preference is NOS all the way now!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes...100 per cent agreement to that.

The main thing is that NOS tubes are built better and can take more plate voltage. This is very important on certain vintage Marshall amps that run over 550V.

Who wants to say, "My valuable amp is ruined because I stuck some cheap tubes in it and one of them sucked flames." I mean I run TSL's and I still put good tubes in all of my amps and I have a bunch. Even my hybrid amps have NOS tubes in them and my Peavey's too.

I think it just makes sense to run the best tubes you can. It's safer and your amp will sound better. When NOS is no longer available, I'll be too old to care and I will sell my tubes to the young guys looking for the best sound.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes...100 per cent agreement to that.
> 
> The main thing is that NOS tubes are built better and can take more plate voltage. This is very important on certain vintage Marshall amps that run over 550V.
> 
> Who wants to say, "My valuable amp is ruined because I stuck some cheap tubes in it and one of them sucked flames." I mean I run TSL's and I still put good tubes in all of my amps and I have a bunch. Even my hybrid amps have NOS tubes in them and my Peavey's too.
> 
> I think it just makes sense to run the best tubes you can. It's safer and your amp will sound better. When NOS is no longer available, I'll be too old to care and I will sell my tubes to the young guys looking for the best sound.



Yeah, I'm a little worried. As the NOS' are not going to be here forever. I just don't think they make them like they did back then, when they were even being made for the military and such. 

Even though NOS prices are high for Mullards and Tele's now I'd say that they'll go even higher if people keep playing guitar and are still concerned about tone. Imagine 20 years down the road.. An NOS/NIB Mullard turns up somewhere. Never been used for 60 years and still in pristine shape. WOW!!

I can imagine how much that would be if the kids today who play maintain the demand for these tubes. I'd say we are still in the lucky phase now, since these NOS' are still available to some degree and still high in price, but affordable to someone willing to invest in great tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in a ways there is an answer. Several reputable companies have formed and they are making high quality tubes. Tech Tube is the main one. They are making 12AX7/ECC83 derivatives that are getting better with each batch. They plan on making EL34's and KT88's in the future and that's great news. 

Tech Tube is the old original Mullard company and they have set up shop at the Blackburn plant. Whenever there is notable news it will be posted on the Preamp thread.


----------



## steelhorse

Great to hear Marty.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Who wants to say, "My valuable amp is ruined because I stuck some cheap tubes in it and one of them sucked flames."




Mm, flames and a tube amp... Don't mix well, I burnt a hole right through the bottom of one of my old tubes xD

I needa save up some money so I can get together a decent collection of NOS tubes, to keep me going for like the next 20 years at least, until then I'm stuck with CP tubes =(







Example 1 of why CP tubes suck.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for posting that. Man that was some major current draw and yes, it sucked flames. I can't believe how much damage a cheap tube can do to an amp. What the hell did this tube do to your main board? You can also tell it was arcing between pins.

Again, thanks for sharing that pic. It shows exactly what I was talking about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just thought that I would throw this out. If you have an older Marshall (or other) amp that uses a rectifier tube, do you use NOS or do you use current production? For building a database, I would like to know the brand, type and amount of service you get. Also, the high voltage of the amp. Most old Marshall's ran above 550V. Have you ever had a rectifier tube go bad on you?


----------



## Jae

Jesstaa said:


> Mm, flames and a tube amp... Don't mix well, I burnt a hole right through the bottom of one of my old tubes xD
> 
> I needa save up some money so I can get together a decent collection of NOS tubes, to keep me going for like the next 20 years at least, until then I'm stuck with CP tubes =(
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Example 1 of why CP tubes suck.



Wow, that's too bad and dangerous. That gives me another reason to stay away from CPs. Marty was a life saver on the point mentioned about the older Marshalls putting out more voltage, which in fact can damage the amp if you put in newer CP tubes which handle less. If I didn't know that I'd think it was safe to CPs in the vintage Marshalls. Not a good idea. 

Hey Jess, what amp was it btw?


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just thought that I would throw this out. If you have an older Marshall (or other) amp that uses a rectifier tube, do you use NOS or do you use current production? For building a database, I would like to know the brand, type and amount of service you get. Also, the high voltage of the amp. Most old Marshall's ran above 550V. Have you ever had a rectifier tube go bad on you?




Man, that's a good question. This you mean goes for amps that don't have a solid state rectifier, right (duh!). It must mean the amps like the JTMs. I wish I had one, but don't. 

BTW Marty, do you have other vintage amps? If so what's your rig??


----------



## Jesstaa

Jae said:


> Wow, that's too bad and dangerous. That gives me another reason to stay away from CPs. Marty was a life saver on the point mentioned about the older Marshalls putting out more voltage, which in fact can damage the amp if you put in newer CP tubes which handle less. If I didn't know that I'd think it was safe to CPs in the vintage Marshalls. Not a good idea.
> 
> Hey Jess, what amp was it btw?



*points at sig*

And Marty, no mainboard damage as far as I know (Thank fuck for 900 bases not being mounted to the PCB), but the OT is on the way out.




There's the tube socket.




And another pic of the tube base

Feel free to use that as an example of why CP tubes suck.

And Marty, if you use my story as an example, don't forget to mention my OT has to be replaced now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Man, that's a good question. This you mean goes for amps that don't have a solid state rectifier, right (duh!). It must mean the amps like the JTMs. I wish I had one, but don't.
> 
> BTW Marty, do you have other vintage amps? If so what's your rig??



Well if you look at my sig, I like using TSL's. I also have a couple of DSL401's. Then we get into my other amps. I have a rare, low S/N 1972 Randall RG150. This amp uses very rare 8417 power tubes. This was a completely different power tube in how it was designed. However, it is in the same wattage class as a 6550 and a KT88. In theory, four 8417's can produce 200 watts. Randall throttled the design back a bit and called it good at 150 watts. My amp puts out 172 watts at 5 per cent distortion. It has a solid state preamp with a 12AT7 phase inverter tube. It is a two channel amp and one channel has a master volume. However, I have to use an ABY to get it to work like a two channel. No real problem. It's a brute.

Then I have a 1974 Randall RG90. It is all solid state and I put two new speakers in it. It hardly has any real damage to it. For as old as my Randall's are, they are in great shape.

Then I have my Peavey's. I used to have a MACE 212 in 1974, so I bought a MACE head a few years ago. This is the one that came from the factory with six, STR387 6L6GC's. It's another amp rated at 160 plus watts. Then I have a Peavey Deuce 212 combo and a Peavey Classic 212.

Rounding it all out are two, 35 watt, all tube RCA PA amps modified for guitar. These amps use another rare NOS tube called a 7027A. It is really a big 6L6, but it has a slightly different pin out. 7AC for the 6L6 and 8HY for the 7027A.

When the market gets a little better, I'm going to sell some of my amps and get me one real good boutique amp in the 20 to 30 watt range. I need something more portable, so I'll probably get a head and I'll build a custom cabinet with 2, 12's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just have to say that I feel sorry for anyone who has had damage done to their amp because of a current production power tube failing. You spend your money and you think you are getting a well tested and safe product to use in your expensive amp. Five days later, there's smoke and maybe a little flame or molten metal dripping on your speakers. Not a good scenario, but it happens. I go to other tube forums and they don't pull any punches over there. If someone is making bad tubes they state the brands. I have read dozens of stories like the one ^^^ above. Pins melted off of tubes, glass broken all inside of the amp and expensive damage to the chassis as a result of all of this.

I'm glad that most of you have had good luck with current production (CP) tubes. However, I scan a lot of threads and a good percentage of them are tube related/bad tubes.

I hope that the Russian's and the Chinese step up their quality control so that this sort of crap comes to a close.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just have to say that I feel sorry for anyone who has had damage done to their amp because of a current production power tube failing. You spend your money and you think you are getting a well tested and safe product to use in your expensive amp. Five days later, there's smoke and maybe a little flame or molten metal dripping on your speakers. Not a good scenario, but it happens. I go to other tube forums and they don't pull any punches over there. If someone is making bad tubes they state the brands. I have read dozens of stories like the one ^^^ above. Pins melted off of tubes, glass broken all inside of the amp and expensive damage to the chassis as a result of all of this.
> 
> I'm glad that most of you have had good luck with current production (CP) tubes. However, I scan a lot of threads and a good percentage of them are tube related/bad tubes.
> 
> I hope that the Russian's and the Chinese step up their quality control so that this sort of crap comes to a close.



Yeah, I would say i feel sorry for them too. 
Now that I know that NOS tubes are good and can handle the power (especially for a vintage amp) I wouldn't mind spending the extra bucks for safety of the amp as well as get tone. 

I blew one tube once and that was a CP. But, it was entirely my fault. I hooked it up to nothing and had the master and preamp volumes to 10 and played through. What was crazy was I actually heard sound coming from the head itself, and a high pitched very low volume but audible sound. Then the amp just stopped making the sound and stopped working altogether. I had a GT El34 in there and one of them just blew and was cracked. Luckily the transformers were not damaged and the amp works great now. 

This is the same amp I posted earlier with the Mullard xf2's.

BTW, I still have my '67 Super in the shop getting the Sylvania 6CA7s put in. Can't wait!
I also was thinking of switching a filter cap on that one to match the sound of my '72 Super, which was sold to me as an all original. That is the best soudning amp I have right now. 

Oh, I have to show you the power tubes it came with. Not sure if they are NOS, but they say Ruby on them. I'll post some pics when I get the chance!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ruby's are relabeled Chinese tubes. Dirt cheap CP.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ruby's are relabeled Chinese tubes. Dirt cheap CP.



So I guess it isn't the tubes that are making the amp sound good, or in fact there is some kind of anomoly (sorry, can't spell this word) going on where in fact thes CPs are working together with the circuitry to produce a pleasing tone.

Hmmm. I was contemplating on changing to NOS Tele's or Sylvania or Mullards. See if that makes it sound even better.

Plus for safety reasons as well...

However, I like the sound of the amp right now so much that I'll change some preamp tubes, but leave it the way it is.. for now.. Hmmm, still contemplating..doh!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of people like the sound of a RUBY. I just can't vouch for their reliability.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> A lot of people like the sound of a RUBY. I just can't vouch for their reliability.



One thing I did notice was that it gets pretty hot at the back when cranked. I don't think it's good when the Output tubes get too hot. My 1987x used to get real hot with CP tubes in there and one day the OT just blew. Not sure if they were because of the tubes.

Is it normal for output tubes to get really hot/warm. I wish I would actually show you how warm it gets. 

My other '67 doesn't get that hot, nor does my JMP '78. There must be a reason, because only the amps with the CPs tend to get that way. Hmmm.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ruby's are relabeled Chinese tubes. Dirt cheap CP.



What cracks me up is if you buy Ruby EL34BSTR's(matched set)they will be $39.00 online. If you buy(matched set)the Shuguang EL34B(same EL34 as the BSTR)it is $28.95 online. Relabel makes a bit of a profit there.


EL34/KT77/6CA7 Power Tubes

Shuguang EL34-B


----------



## Procter2812

Im being honest... iv retubed my amp once wit E34L JJ's and i didnt like them compared to the sveltena =C=.....

The Winged C EL34's seem fairly rugged. Iv got them in my 800 and love the sound... The JJ's were sounding floppy and higher noise.

Im defo gonna lean towards NOS power tubes when these go out on me!

Alex


----------



## coldsteal2

Ruby is just a distributer, they use tubes from many
different companies just like Grove Tube does, they actualy
have more Russian tubes. They do have a Chinese factory
for a few models, but also have

Russian
JJ's (Slovakia)
Sovtek
China
German
Tungsol


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Im being honest... iv retubed my amp once wit E34L JJ's and i didnt like them compared to the sveltena =C=.....
> 
> The Winged C EL34's seem fairly rugged. Iv got them in my 800 and love the sound... The JJ's were sounding floppy and higher noise.
> 
> Im defo gonna lean towards NOS power tubes when these go out on me!
> 
> Alex



I really like the Winged =C='s. For my blues and rock playing they do well. More open and not as tight and compressed. Also have a great rep for durability. 

The Ruby BSTR(Shuguang)actually sound pretty good. I used them for several months and didn't have any problems. Tung Sols were good. Svetlanas in my amp were just too middy and lacked lowend. I'm sure in a mix they would cut no problem but my amp already cuts so no deal for me. KT-77's sounded good especially on the clean channel. I have a set of the JJ-34L's that I haven't even tried yet. Mostly I hear they sound good but they do get mixed reviews. I'll try them one of these days here hehe.

I have only tried the RFT EL34's as far as NOS EL 34's go and they are great sounding. I like to try tubes in my amp and see how they fare if I have the money. If not then I make the educated guess from players I can relate to equipment wise and musically and make plans on what will give me the most bang for my buck.

Its a real bummer to see a power tube go out and cause a bunch of collateral damage. I'm not looking forward to that!


----------



## Jae

Ok, here is another question. I always here about the KT88s. I think they look cool. What are they like in terms of sound? I think i saw some of them in the older vintage plexi's. Does anyone here have any experience with KT88s? If so what brand or kind are good? Do you have experience with both NOS or CP?

Also, I have a vintage superlead. Would i have to change a part of the circuitry to accomodate these tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Ok, here is another question. I always here about the KT88s. I think they look cool. What are they like in terms of sound? I think i saw some of them in the older vintage plexi's. Does anyone here have any experience with KT88s? If so what brand or kind are good? Do you have experience with both NOS or CP?
> 
> Also, I have a vintage superlead. Would i have to change a part of the circuitry to accomodate these tubes?



Well as much money as you have been spending on NOS tubes, NOS KT88's might clean you out. I mean they are sky high expensive. That is why several tube companies are making KT88's. The Chinese have been making them for quite some time and they are probably one of the better tubes.

I don't think there is any CP KT88 that will meet the spec's of an NOS KT88. I think the one's that are made are good enough to get by in an amp. You have to understand that an NOS KT88 was designed to make 50 watts each. CP KT88's are being used in amps where they are making 25 watts each.

The other thing is plate voltage. NOS EL34's and KT88's are rated at 800V on the plates. Older Marshall amps, or amps with high plate voltage could curl the plates on CP power tubes like the EL34 and KT88. They may only be rated at around 450V. You won't know until you try them. The bottom line is that if you have a plate voltage of 435V and the tube is rated at 450V, how long will the tube last in this type of scenario?

Generally, you might be able to swap over to KT88's without doing anything. It all depends on whether the tubes will bias in the amp. If they don't, you usually can just change the final bias resistor and then you will be able to bias the amp. Your bias calculation will be different because the KT88 is a 35 watt dissipation tube and the EL34 is a 25 watt dissipation tube.

If I had your amps, I would run the NOS EL34's. The KT88 is basically a high power Hi Fi tube. Therefore it doesn't break up like an EL34. Now some players prefer this due to the style of music they play and the FX system they are running. Some of my friends here on the forum are using KT88's. American Viking runs KT88's and he loves the sound it puts out. I think some Marshall amps can run KT88's without any problems. I would like to have like an 1984 800 50 watter with two KT88's. Hell, I would like to just have an 800 again. 

Anyway, you can do some searching here on the forum for additional info on KT88's.


----------



## Jae

Thanks Marty. And thanks also for the good read on the preamp thread. it was a long read, but I found some useful info.

I noticed them talking about the importance of matched output tubes. No WONDER the CP tubes in my 1987x were getting so hot. Also the '72 super gets pretty hot at the back. Now I'm starting to wonder if the tubes I have in both of them are poorly matched. Also, this might be a dumb question, but if you put in a very mismatched set of tubes, can it blow an OT?

The 1987x OT blew and I noticed that back then it was getting pretty hot, hotter than the other vintage Marshalls i have.

As for KT88s, i might not need them for now. Price is sky high and I like the extra gain from the EL34s.


----------



## Jesstaa

Jae said:


> Thanks Marty. And thanks also for the good read on the preamp thread. it was a long read, but I found some useful info.
> 
> I noticed them talking about the importance of matched output tubes. No WONDER the CP tubes in my 1987x were getting so hot. Also the '72 super gets pretty hot at the back. Now I'm starting to wonder if the tubes I have in both of them are poorly matched. Also, this might be a dumb question, but if you put in a very mismatched set of tubes, can it blow an OT?
> 
> The 1987x OT blew and I noticed that back then it was getting pretty hot, hotter than the other vintage Marshalls i have.
> 
> As for KT88s, i might not need them for now. Price is sky high and I like the extra gain from the EL34s.




I'd say save KT88's for something like a 2 amp set up, with 1 for cleans, more headroom


----------



## steelhorse

I love the KT88's. Big, thunderous. 

KT88's on the outside pair of the quad with KT66's in between.

GZ34's in the immediate foreground and GT6L6's in the background on it's side which the integrated quad replaced.


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone here ever tried the Groove Tubes 6CA7 GE reissue? It's made in the USA using much of G.E.'s original equipment and top secret plans. 
I read about these yesterday and they sound interesting. 

Reviews are scarce. I found a pair at a few online retailers for $80, which is getting into NOS RFT territory.

One person said that they are a reissue of the tubes that were in EVH's Marshall for the first two albums.


----------



## javier pintos

OK NOS are better than CP, but what if you must get CP cause you do not have the $$ to get the NOS and your power tubes are on the way out or have already fail?, what CP would be good to go for

I´m thinking on my DSL100

Cheers


----------



## solarburn

javier pintos said:


> OK NOS are better than CP, but what if you must get CP cause you do not have the $$ to get the NOS and your power tubes are on the way out or have already fail?, what CP would be good to go for
> 
> I´m thinking on my DSL100
> 
> Cheers



I can't afford NOS power tubes either javier. The Tubestore.com has Shuguang EL34B's for $28.95 for a matched set. So you would put 2 in the quantity box to get a matched quad which works out to be $57.90. Ruby Tubes rebrands these as EL34BSTR's. They are the same tubes and sound very good as I have a matched pair.

Winged =C='s are a great pick but a bit more expensive. Their overall reputation is they are a durable CP great sounding power tube. I'm running these right now. My RFT's(NOS)are a bit warmer and have really nice mids and highs that aren't harsh but I wanted to give them a rest while I hammer the Winged =C='s some more.


----------



## javier pintos

hey i just went by the tube store, and actually liked what i read about the svetlana EL34, anyone has had any experience with them?


----------



## solarburn

javier pintos said:


> hey i just went by the tube store, and actually liked what i read about the svetlana EL34, anyone has had any experience with them?



I used these for a time due to the description given about them. I thought they were a bit too cutting and harsh for my tastes. I mean it isn't hard to get a DSL to cut through hehe. The absence of lowend didn't thrill me either. Some K100's(speakers)may tame the high end a bit and then some dark preamp tubes...

I just didn't like em'.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think the Svetlanas are all that bad. My GTEL34M's are drifting like crazy and starting to scare me. I had a pair of Svetlanas handy, so that's what went in. They are a little thin, but the bass boost helped that. I've got the bass and mids on 10 and the treble on 6 or 7 and it sounds pretty good. I've gotten to where I don't even touch the presence control any more. I've really never been in a situation where I needed it with the DSL. Hopefully I'll have some RFT EL34's in it soon and then I won't have to worry about CP tubes for awhile.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, but the bottom line is you shouldn't have to use that much bass EQ. You should get some of it naturally from the power tubes.

Like a set of RFT's.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I don't think the Svetlanas are all that bad. My GTEL34M's are drifting like crazy and starting to scare me. I had a pair of Svetlanas handy, so that's what went in. They are a little thin, but the bass boost helped that. I've got the bass and mids on 10 and the treble on 6 or 7 and it sounds pretty good. I've gotten to where I don't even touch the presence control any more. I've really never been in a situation where I needed it with the DSL. Hopefully I'll have some RFT EL34's in it soon and then I won't have to worry about CP tubes for awhile.



Wow on that EQ hehe. I have my presence about 3, treble 4, mids at 7 and bass at 3 with the bass boost on. I'm getting plenty of lows mixed in. Are you sure your bass boost is working? Are you using it? I couldn't use that much bass on mine without flubb'n it out with too much lowend. As long as it sounds good to you though is what matters. We each have our own ears to judge by hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been living in red channel land for the last week or so. I've been trying out some Tungsram ECC83's I'm selling on eBay, making sure they aren't noisy and can handle the gain. They are a strange lot of tubes - Marty tested them way high, but in the DSL they aren't as high gain as my RCA/RFT combination. Not bad sounding, though. I think I developed a distaste for them when I was using them in my old Laney. The more I think about it, that amp was probably needing a cap job pretty bad - I kept blaming the thin, no-bottom-end tone on tubes. 
Back to the EQ, I can get a decent JCM800 tone out of the red channel on Ultra Gain 1 with the gain at about 1 o'clock, but it's bright... that's the main reason for the weird settings. I may have a little presence dialed in - I don't really remember. If I'm on the green channel, it's more like 6-6-6. And yes, the bass boost is definitely working. I haven't been able to crank the amp for a few days, and it sounds better with the bass boost at low volume. If I wasn't stuck at the office, I could have had the house to myself for a couple of hours today. That's usually the way it works out.

Hey, I forgot to mention: I found a treasure the other day. My wife was going through some old clothes that we had put away in rubbermaid containers years ago (seems like we never throw anything away). She found a Marshall t-shirt that I had gotten at the NAMM show in 2000. It was autographed by Jim Marshall and had the "new" JTM45 RI on the front. That brings my total to 3. For some reason, I didn't even remember having that shirt.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've been living in red channel land for the last week or so. I've been trying out some Tungsram ECC83's I'm selling on eBay, making sure they aren't noisy and can handle the gain. They are a strange lot of tubes - Marty tested them way high, but in the DSL they aren't as high gain as my RCA/RFT combination. Not bad sounding, though. I think I developed a distaste for them when I was using them in my old Laney. The more I think about it, that amp was probably needing a cap job pretty bad - I kept blaming the thin, no-bottom-end tone on tubes.
> Back to the EQ, I can get a decent JCM800 tone out of the red channel on Ultra Gain 1 with the gain at about 1 o'clock, but it's bright... that's the main reason for the weird settings. I may have a little presence dialed in - I don't really remember. If I'm on the green channel, it's more like 6-6-6. And yes, the bass boost is definitely working. I haven't been able to crank the amp for a few days, and it sounds better with the bass boost at low volume. If I wasn't stuck at the office, I could have had the house to myself for a couple of hours today. That's usually the way it works out.
> 
> Hey, I forgot to mention: I found a treasure the other day. My wife was going through some old clothes that we had put away in rubbermaid containers years ago (seems like we never throw anything away). She found a Marshall t-shirt that I had gotten at the NAMM show in 2000. It was autographed by Jim Marshall and had the "new" JTM45 RI on the front. That brings my total to 3. For some reason, I didn't even remember having that shirt.



Man I always forget I boost too. Usually I use lead 1 with the gain at 4/5 and add some boost with my Dano Transparent Overdrive. I get some added thickness and punch only the way I use it. I don't try to get more gain. I just leave my EQ basically the same for the crunch channel but take the bass boost off if going at it with volume there.

I wouldn't mind having a JTM45 RI 30 watter. Nice frigg'n amp! Cool on the shirt man.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Joe, just by the shirt off of RATT and save yourself some $$$.


----------



## thrawn86

A while back I was interested in changing my EL84's, since I got my amp used and thought I should perhaps, but saw no reason as they were in excellent condition. I know Marty chimed in and suggested Ei tubes, and after I gave mine a looksee, that's exactly what I have. I like the sound I have, so does anyone else have an opinion on these? (All I'm running are the original preamp tubes btw)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Joe, just by the shirt off of RATT and save yourself some $$$.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> A while back I was interested in changing my EL84's, since I got my amp used and thought I should perhaps, but saw no reason as they were in excellent condition. I know Marty chimed in and suggested Ei tubes, and after I gave mine a looksee, that's exactly what I have. I like the sound I have, so does anyone else have an opinion on these? (All I'm running are the original preamp tubes btw)



I like these...alot! 

Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS NIB 1966-1970 Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.

No opine on the EI's though.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


>



Yeah, I'll make you a deal, but you'll have to change your name to "Alan" (or "Melanie" if you want my wife's shirt).

I think I know why I didn't remember that shirt. I remember going to the NAMM show in Nashville one year when I was very sick. I made it through it thanks to a large bottle of high-octane cough syrup and a coffee booth that was selling espresso. You ever been so f'ed up you could barely stand up and so wired you couldn't lay down?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> A while back I was interested in changing my EL84's, since I got my amp used and thought I should perhaps, but saw no reason as they were in excellent condition. I know Marty chimed in and suggested Ei tubes, and after I gave mine a looksee, that's exactly what I have. I like the sound I have, so does anyone else have an opinion on these? (All I'm running are the original preamp tubes btw)



I left you some comment in the Preamp Thread. However, Ei EL84's were my favorite CP tube. To go beyond that, you would have to get NOS tubes. I sold a bunch recently of EBAY and one lucky guy got a quad of Sylvania Black Plates for $60. Those are some nice tubes. I should have gotten twice that, but that's how it goes on EBAY sometimes. 

Those Ei's aren't going to last forever, so I recommend that you start looking around now for a possible deal on a set of tubes.

ARS is still selling Ei EL84's. Call them for a price on four. If it's too high, then I would recommend watching EBAY and snagging a set on NOS tubes.

ARS Electronics - Audio Catalog Page


----------



## axl2

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I used these for a time due to the description given about them. I thought they were a bit too cutting and harsh for my tastes. I mean it isn't hard to get a DSL to cut through hehe. The absence of lowend didn't thrill me either. Some K100's(speakers)may tame the high end a bit and then some dark preamp tubes...
> 
> I just didn't like em'.



Same problem I'm having with them right now. They are on the verge of being replaced. I'm not a fan of such a low amount of low end and shrill lead tones. 

To my ear they have a nice mid section but as the volume increases the high end overpowers it. Creating an insanely harsh tone.


----------



## solarburn

axl2 said:


> Same problem I'm having with them right now. They are on the verge of being replaced. I'm not a fan of such a low amount of low end and shrill lead tones.
> 
> To my ear they have a nice mid section but as the volume increases the high end overpowers it. Creating an insanely harsh tone.



Exactly. Especially at volume.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I'll make you a deal, but you'll have to change your name to "Alan" (or "Melanie" if you want my wife's shirt).
> 
> I think I know why I didn't remember that shirt. I remember going to the NAMM show in Nashville one year when I was very sick. I made it through it thanks to a large bottle of high-octane cough syrup and a coffee booth that was selling espresso. You ever been so f'ed up you could barely stand up and so wired you couldn't lay down?



Still want the JTM45 30 watt AMP!!!!!! The shirt is just a tease...with a girls name on it.

Its either the JTM or a 3 Monkeys Grease Monkey. The JTM's cheaper.

<--- Look! Triple 8! Do I win a JTM45?


----------



## RiverRatt

You might want to take a serious look at Ceriatone. They get a bad rep from the cork-sniffers, but a good friend of mine is a customer of theirs. I've never heard a bad sound come from one of his amps. His Plexi50 (1987) is the voice of God.


----------



## solarburn

axl2 said:


> Same problem I'm having with them right now. They are on the verge of being replaced. I'm not a fan of such a low amount of low end and shrill lead tones.
> 
> To my ear they have a nice mid section but as the volume increases the high end overpowers it. Creating an insanely harsh tone.



By the way axl2 what are you going to replace them with?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You might want to take a serious look at Ceriatone. They get a bad rep from the cork-sniffers, but a good friend of mine is a customer of theirs. I've never heard a bad sound come from one of his amps. His Plexi50 (1987) is the voice of God.



I know about these and you are right. I continue to hear good reviews about them. I would love to hear that Plexi50 in person. Love them Plexi tones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Still want the JTM45 30 watt AMP!!!!!! The shirt is just a tease...with a girls name on it.
> 
> Its either the JTM or a 3 Monkeys Grease Monkey. The JTM's cheaper.
> 
> <--- Look! Triple 8! Do I win a JTM45?



Sorry...you didn't win. Now if it had been 777 you would have won the amp of your choice.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry...you didn't win. Now if it had been 777 you would have won the amp of your choice.:eek2::eek2:



Figures...

Guess I'll have to use real money then.


----------



## axl2

solarburnDSL50 said:


> By the way axl2 what are you going to replace them with?



I'm actually undecided right now. I rushed into my last tube purchases. I think I'm going to keep the JJ's in the pre amp for now, get some more mileage. But the EL34's have gotta go. I'm researching around....


----------



## builtbychevy

hey guys i have a vintage modern 2266c 50watt
preampvalves- 4x ecc83
powerampvalves- 2x kt66
speakers-2x g12c

Now for my dilemma... I want that Marshall 1960Dave Mustaine Sig. amp sound. I feel i do not have enough experience with tubes to make an educated decision on this, so i am asking for a recommendation of real high quality/quality-sounding tubes to replace all of the existing factory ones in my 2266.


----------



## builtbychevy

Hey I've been looking around allot im not sure what genuine NOS tubes really are. Because there seems to be so many variants claiming NOS, Sovtek, Brimar, made in england made in russia made in germany... its rather confusing. also which would be of higher quality the ones made pre 1990's or post 1990's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

builtbychevy said:


> Hey I've been looking around allot im not sure what genuine NOS tubes really are. Because there seems to be so many variants claiming NOS, Sovtek, Brimar, made in england made in russia made in germany... its rather confusing. also which would be of higher quality the ones made pre 1990's or post 1990's?



You have a couple of posts and I will try to answer your questions. First off, putting high quality NOS tubes in your VM will change the tone. Will it make you sound like Dave Mustaine? Probably not, but it will get you closer than if you were to use the stock OE Marshall tubes (that are probably Sovtek's). 

Now the other thing. Your amp runs KT66's. You would probably get closer to Dave's sound with EL34's. Now there are some important variables here. One is current draw of the heaters in the power tubes. The KT's pull less than the EL34's. Using EL34's could cause the power transformer to run warmer. The only thing I could safely recommend is a pair of NOS Sylvania Fat Boy 6L6GC's. These have more bottom end than a regular 6L6. However, they still sound like a 6L6 and are not going to give you that EL34 sound. I look at it this way. You bought the VM, because you liked how it sounded. Right? Well then you must like the KT66 sound over the EL34 sound and that's not a bad thing. KT66's have their own distinct sound.

Now the two things that you can do to quickly change your amp's sound is changing at least the gain preamp tubes with NOS and also your speakers. This is a complete column on its own and I will be brief. Almost all guitar speakers are "colored." That is, they have peaks and dips in their frequency response that give the speaker its distinct sound. In some of my cabinets, I use high quality Mid PA speakers. These are very flat and neutral sounding. 

You can add more bottom end to an amp by changing the preamp tubes, but you can also do it by changing over to say V30's. If you want the most bottom end, you change both. Most Marshall's are bright. There are speakers out there that will mellow the top end and still have a nice round bottom and mids. Since this is off topic, that is all I will say.

The real NOS era ended around 1988, but in my books it was 1984. Regardless, NOS or ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) tubes date from the 40's to the 80's. To me, the best one's where made in the late 50's to the mid 70's. For your amp, you would want a slightly hot V1 and a high gain V2. I would say an Amperex in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2.

I would also recommend that you read up on some of the posts in the Preamp thread. If you have anymore preamp tube questions, please post there as this is a power tube thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I scored a pair of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's. They could be STR tubes. The seller wasn't a tube person and knew very little about them. I got them for less than $70. When they get here, I will know for sure what they are.*


----------



## custom53

*Re: Power tubes?? Who, What, When Where, Why, how??*

...


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Welcome aboard Custom53.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I want to let the Aussie's on this thread know that there is a major tube seller on EBAY from Perth. He has been on EBAY for about three months or so, selling some really nice pre and power tubes. His user name is: angst46.

Look him up and then check out his auctions. Time to get some smokin toobs.*


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I want to let the Aussie's on this thread know that there is a major tube seller on EBAY from Perth. He has been on EBAY for about three months or so, selling some really nice pre and power tubes. His user name is: angst46.
> 
> Look him up and then check out his auctions. Time to get some smokin toobs.*



Oo, too bad I don't have any cash.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*This is a copy of a post that I left on the Preamp Tube Thread. It is about using an EL34 with a 6CA7 in a TSL602.*

*Well, I did it and it worked just fine. It gave the top end a little more sparkle. The power chords were very fat, as both tubes do have good bottom end. Oh, BTW, this is a 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boy and a "Mullard" EL34 in one of my 602's. Both tubes tested the same and they biased right up with just the one bias trim pot. (You lucky DSL50 guys have two trim pots.) I guess I'll leave them in there for a while and see if I'm still liking it this weekend.

I would have to say it is sort of like pairing V1 and V2. In this arrangement, the Mullard gets the first part of the signal and then the Sylvania. So the Mullard's tonal characteristics are there "first" and then it goes into the cleaner sound of the Fat Boy. I guess just like V1 and V2, you could swap them around and see if that sounds different or better.*

*Time Warp-I swapped the tubes around and it does make a difference, especially on the Clean channel. With the Fat Boy in there first and the Mullard on the negative swing of the power cycle, it is a cleaner, tighter sound. The Sylvania has now become like V1 and it's flavor is dominant.

Now you might ask, "Try two Fat Boys." Well I can't. This pair I bought I got a bad deal. They were sold untested and one reads 79 and the other 88. You could probably bias them up in a DSL50. I don't know how wide a swing the amp will tolerate, but I don't like to go more than 8 points between tubes.

So this is sort of fascinating. That the tube on the positive side of the power cycle is like V1 and the characteristics of the negative side of the power cycle is like V2. The negative side adds to the power, but the flavor is stronger coming from the tube first in line with the power cycle.

I had PM'd JOE about Steelhorse's amp that runs the KT66's and the KT88's. He is getting flavor from two completely different sounding tubes. With the EL34 and the 6CA7, they are both electronically the same...pin for pin. However, even though this is true, they do not sound the same. A 6CA7 is more like a 6L6GC in sound. I told JOE that putting 6CA7's in your amp was a quick way to get the KT88 sound. No worries about the biasing as it will bias right up.

How's that for some tube info?*


----------



## jrm

Hey guys, I've heard RFT tubes metioned here, never heard of them. What are they?


----------



## MartyStrat54

jrm said:


> Hey guys, I've heard RFT tubes metioned here, never heard of them. What are they?



*RFT was one of the largest tube companies in Europe. They were located in East Germany. They made tubes for at least 15 companies, including Telefunken. They went out of business around 1988. Right now, you can still get a matched quad on new RFT EL34's for $200. That's what I run in a couple of my amps. These are very nice EL34's. RFT also made 12xx7 tubes. Their 12AX7's are a favorite in many guitar amps.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *This is a copy of a post that I left on the Preamp Tube Thread. It is about using an EL34 with a 6CA7 in a TSL602.*
> 
> *Well, I did it and it worked just fine. It gave the top end a little more sparkle. The power chords were very fat, as both tubes do have good bottom end. Oh, BTW, this is a 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boy and a "Mullard" EL34 in one of my 602's. Both tubes tested the same and they biased right up with just the one bias trim pot. (You lucky DSL50 guys have two trim pots.) I guess I'll leave them in there for a while and see if I'm still liking it this weekend.
> 
> I would have to say it is sort of like pairing V1 and V2. In this arrangement, the Mullard gets the first part of the signal and then the Sylvania. So the Mullard's tonal characteristics are there "first" and then it goes into the cleaner sound of the Fat Boy. I guess just like V1 and V2, you could swap them around and see if that sounds different or better.*
> 
> *Time Warp-I swapped the tubes around and it does make a difference, especially on the Clean channel. With the Fat Boy in there first and the Mullard on the negative swing of the power cycle, it is a cleaner, tighter sound. The Sylvania has now become like V1 and it's flavor is dominant.
> 
> Now you might ask, "Try two Fat Boys." Well I can't. This pair I bought I got a bad deal. They were sold untested and one reads 79 and the other 88. You could probably bias them up in a DSL50. I don't know how wide a swing the amp will tolerate, but I don't like to go more than 8 points between tubes.
> 
> So this is sort of fascinating. That the tube on the positive side of the power cycle is like V1 and the characteristics of the negative side of the power cycle is like V2. The negative side adds to the power, but the flavor is stronger coming from the tube first in line with the power cycle.
> 
> I had PM'd JOE about Steelhorse's amp that runs the KT66's and the KT88's. He is getting flavor from two completely different sounding tubes. With the EL34 and the 6CA7, they are both electronically the same...pin for pin. However, even though this is true, they do not sound the same. A 6CA7 is more like a 6L6GC in sound. I told JOE that putting 6CA7's in your amp was a quick way to get the KT88 sound. No worries about the biasing as it will bias right up.
> 
> How's that for some tube info?*



You devil! You already did the test! Very cool outcome especially finding out that those positions act like V1 & V2 and what's in the first position dominates character wise. Very cool!

I'm waiting for 2 EH6CA7's to arrive and try out in my DSL50. I will post up after I take them for a spin early next week.

Great experiment Marty! Thanks for doing it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Yeah Joe. The only thing that concerns me about the EH6CA7's is whether or not they really sound like a 6CA7, or if they are just another way to sell an EL34. A real 6CA7 is going to have a much clearer top end and will not distort as easy as an EL34. Plus, all the NOS 6CA7's were made in the big glass and were called Fat Boys. The ultimate 6CA7 is a Sylvania Fat Boy with Black Plated. I doubt if I could afford them if they showed up on EBAY. 

My whole point is aimed directly at the EH's. I hope that they have the high power handling and the ability to run high plate voltages. These are what NOS 6CA7's are known for, plus the ruggedness of their internal design. I will be very interested in hearing what your comments will be on these tubes.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Yeah Joe. The only thing that concerns me about the EH6CA7's is whether or not they really sound like a 6CA7, or if they are just another way to sell an EL34. A real 6CA7 is going to have a much clearer top end and will not distort as easy as an EL34. Plus, all the NOS 6CA7's were made in the big glass and were called Fat Boys. The ultimate 6CA7 is a Sylvania Fat Boy with Black Plated. I doubt if I could afford them if they showed up on EBAY.
> 
> My whole point is aimed directly at the EH's. I hope that they have the high power handling and the ability to run high plate voltages. These are what NOS 6CA7's are known for, plus the ruggedness of their internal design. I will be very interested in hearing what your comments will be on these tubes.*



The description on these say they will but its hard to know unless I try them. Lets hope for the best. I googled them but didn't get back anything regarding relability. So this is a shot in the dark for me.

From the Tube store:

At last something to replace the hole left since the EI 6CA7 went out of stock. These tubes sound every bit as good as the old EI tubes and are probably my favorite tubes for Hiwatt guitar amplifiers. It’s like they were made for each other. These tubes are like EL34’s on steroids. They handle high voltage and current without problems. As mentioned, there is nothing like a Hiwatt head powered by 6CA7 tubes and driving a 4x12 cab loaded with Fane speakers. This is classic rock tone at its finest. It’s the sound of Pete Townsend and The Who. The 6CA7 has more headroom than an EL34 and by the time you get it really crunchy sounding your pants are flapping in the breeze. Just the right amount of compression for great thick rock tone. Biasing levels can be dialed in from warm to hot without causing significant tonal changes. The EH is well constructed and should not pose any noise problems. If using these tubes in more reasonable systems the EH 6CA7 is capable of some really nice clean tones thanks to that extra headroom. If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you. If you want something loud and proud, you want to put the EH 6CA7 in your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Yeah I had a 4 by 12 cab with FANE pro 12-inch speakers. It was awesome. I had just put it all together. The cabinet was completely refurbished and I had done a pro recone job on the speakers. Then one of my buddies got with a band playing 5 hours a day in Vegas. He knew about my FANE cabinet. I got a soft heart, because I let it go. I wanted it to see the bright lights of Vegas and it did. My buddy had that gig for almost two years and that cab never let him down.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Yeah I had a 4 by 12 cab with FANE pro 12-inch speakers. It was awesome. I had just put it all together. The cabinet was completely refurbished and I had done a pro recone job on the speakers. Then one of my buddies got with a band playing 5 hours a day in Vegas. He knew about my FANE cabinet. I got a soft heart, because I let it go. I wanted it to see the bright lights of Vegas and it did. My buddy had that gig for almost two years and that cab never let him down.*



Sounds killa man. 

I like the description "by the time you get it really crunchy sounding your pants are flapping in the breeze.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You devil! You already did the test! Very cool outcome especially finding out that those positions act like V1 & V2 and what's in the first position dominates character wise. Very cool!
> 
> I'm waiting for 2 EH6CA7's to arrive and try out in my DSL50. I will post up after I take them for a spin early next week.
> 
> Great experiment Marty! Thanks for doing it.



*I do want to elaborate on the test. I want to make it clear that the sonic changes were not immense by any means. They were very subtle. I was in a very quiet room and it was perfect for this sort of test. I was able to hear a difference when I swapped the two different power tubes around. It was very slight, but it was there. Some people may not be able to hear this. It is a matter of how trained your ear is.

My main point regarding this test is that there was a noticeable difference in the way the amp sounded with a 6CA7 and an EL34 versus two EL34's.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I do want to elaborate on the test. I want to make it clear that the sonic changes were not immense by any means. They were very subtle. I was in a very quiet room and it was perfect for this sort of test. I was able to hear a difference when I swapped the two different power tubes around. It was very slight, but it was there. Some people may not be able to hear this. It is a matter of how trained your ear is.
> 
> My main point regarding this test is that there was a noticeable difference in the way the amp sounded with a 6CA7 and an EL34 versus two EL34's.*



Gotcha. Its a subtle change which I am used to.

Live, people aren't going to go "Wow I hear a 6CA7 in the first slot of that EL34 power section man"!

I say the subtleties are for the player and not the audience. It makes me happy but you might not even hear it. Cool experiment nonetheless.

We are crazee man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Moving this link over to here. I went through the whole thing as most of you knew I would. Gotta get that tube knowledge.*

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/8888-stumbled-cool-kt88-6550-tube-info-site.html


----------



## racko7566

Hey guys, I was wondering, I have a dsl 100 with el34s in it which I like, but what are all the other power tubes I can use? And I seen on a tone king vid he said you can pull two tubes for earlier break up. and he said its then easier on the amp and other parts wear. Is this true? And is this safe? Thanks, Racko


----------



## racko7566

Sorry, I forgot 1 question. If it is safe to pull 2 tubes, when you rebias do you split the reccomended 90 ma's to 45? Thanks again.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Sorry, I forgot 1 question. If it is safe to pull 2 tubes, when you rebias do you split the reccomended 90 ma's to 45? Thanks again.



Safe doesn't make it worth it. It isn't worth chasing the early break up of 2 power tubes and it isn't any less loud really racko. I don't really know why anybody even does it cause there is no benefit I'd call worthwhile by doing it IMO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was a long winded thread about this subject. I am not going to try to put down what was said. You can look it up if you wish. I do not recommend pulling two tubes. The difference between a 100 watt amp and a 50 watt amp is 3dB. Even guys with 50 watt amps have a hard time getting power tube distortion. It a controlled, soft distortion. It's not like a distortion pedal effect. In a Marshall amp, you get most of your distortion pegging your preamp tubes.

As far as power tubes go, you can stick Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's right in the amp for a different sound. Also, you can go with KT77's. Now these tubes, KT66's, 6L6GC's, 5881's, 6550's and KT88's may work and bias up. However, in some cases you would need the to change out the final bias resistors to get the bias in the correct range. Also, I think on the DSL and TSL there may be a physical problem with using 6550's and KT88's, they may not fit side by side.


----------



## racko7566

Thanks for the info guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This poor link needs to be kick started. Here is a link to a thread about an Electro-Harmonix 6L6 that melted and caved in. 

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/9236-apparent-eh-tube-failure-arrrrr.html

Ya gotta watch them CP tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here are some real 6CA7's. These are 1969 Philips Fat Boys. I have several pairs of them. I'm trying to get a matched quad, but they go for around $300.

These are real beauties with Double "O" Getters and 800 VDC rating. One of the toughest High Voltage tubes made for amplification.





















NOS Power Tubes Rule!!!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This poor link needs to be kick started. Here is a link to a thread about an Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 that melted and caved in.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/9236-apparent-eh-tube-failure-arrrrr.html
> 
> Ya gotta watch them CP tubes.



Looks like he is talking about a EH6L6 failure not a 6CA7 right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like he is talking about a EH6L6 failure not a 6CA7 right?



Yes he is and I edited my post to show that. That was my mistake. Hopefully your 6CA7's will hang tough.

Hey??? Whatever happened to JAE???:eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes he is and I edited my post to show that. That was my mistake. Hopefully your 6CA7's will hang tough.
> 
> Hey??? Whatever happened to JAE???:eek2:



Good question. Have no idea...


----------



## wegman

Here is a picture of one of the 6L6s I lifted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's called a Fat Boy Black Plate. High dollar tube if its at least 80 per cent.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's called a Fat Boy Black Plate. High dollar tube if its at least 80 per cent.



Wow. Thanks Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm really digging the sound of my 6CA7's. Completely different than the RFT or Mullard EL34's. Really tight bottom (using less bass on the front panel) and highly articulate mid's. Even when pushed the strings still stand out. Running distortion through these tubes is very compressed and controlled. It makes the distortion sound tight. Harmonics and chime notes just ring. Double bends sound smooth and silky. 

I have used some of the best European EL34's and I must say these Philips 6CA7's are mighty fine. I would like to get a quad for my TSL100.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm really digging the sound of my 6CA7's. Completely different than the RFT or Mullard EL34's. Really tight bottom (using less bass on the front panel) and highly articulate mid's. Even when pushed the strings still stand out. Running distortion through these tubes is very compressed and controlled. It makes the distortion sound tight. Harmonics and chime notes just ring. Double bends sound smooth and silky.
> 
> I have used some of the best European EL34's and I must say these Philips 6CA7's are mighty fine. I would like to get a quad for my TSL100.



Wish I had a pair to compare to my EH's. Alot of what you said is true for mine as well especially that articulation. I've been saying that all along about the bottom end and articulation. Note definition while chording is some of the best I've heard. Whatever string you pick is heard up front. When opened up they come on strong an proud hehe! I like these better than the Winged =C='s I have. These may be my fav if they don't fail early on me.:Ohno:

Shouldn't have to worry about current with those Fatboyz eh...

How much is a quad going for? Are these hard to get or fairly easy? Is the price on them getting jacked too yet?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matched quads are going for $300+ used and $499 for a new in box matched quad. I lucked out and got the pair of Philips for about $115 and they test in the 90's. I am trying to find a single getter tube to match up with that odd pair I bought. One is 88 and the other is 80. I would like to find a single that is at least an 85.

I have my eye on a few right now. Hell, might at well. Preamp tubes are sky high right now.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Matched quads are going for $300+ used and $499 for a new in box matched quad. I lucked out and got the pair of Philips for about $115 and they test in the 90's. I am trying to find a single getter tube to match up with that odd pair I bought. One is 88 and the other is 80. I would like to find a single that is at least an 85.
> 
> I have my eye on a few right now. Hell, might at well. Preamp tubes are sky high right now.[/QUOTE]
> 
> NO shit!
> 
> I figured they were perty costly. Oh well like I always say when I can't pony up...I'll live vicariously through you hehe.
> 
> That $115 was a good deal though! Nice.


----------



## thrawn86

Anyone have opinions or tried the Mullard reissue EL84s? Are they bunk? Thanx


----------



## MartyStrat54

No, I haven't ever tried them. You can still get Ei EL84's and they are real solid power tubes. I used to have the link as I have posted this info several time. Look on Google for AES. They have them in stock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I was doing some research and came across this thread from 2008. A guy is wanting to try some 6CA7EH's. If they have been around for this long, then I think the history of reliability is good for this tube. That's a plus. Here is the thread.

6CA7 Mikael Abdellah's KT88 SE amp? - diyAudio


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I was doing some research and came across this thread from 2008. A guy is wanting to try some 6CA7EH's. If they have been around for this long, then I think the history of reliability is good for this tube. That's a plus. Here is the thread.
> 
> 6CA7 Mikael Abdellah's KT88 SE amp? - diyAudio



I've seen some threads from 2006. Here's one:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-279473.html

Looks like they been around longer than we thought hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Instead of spending $300+ for a matched quad (used), I think I may just buy four of these. Hell, I won't be out all that much if I don't like them. 

They have solid track record.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Instead of spending $300+ for a matched quad (used), I think I may just buy four of these. Hell, I won't be out all that much if I don't like them.
> 
> They have solid track record.



Sheet...I got up too early. Gonna be drag'n ass later.

I think they would be worth a try. I sure like them so far. Also I want to hear you compare them to the real Fat Boyz and see where they stand.

On a side note I got the Tele's already. Haven't got to open the box up yet but I will get to roll'n very soon. Thanks Marty!


----------



## pete3006

Hi guys,

I stumbled on this thread today, as I am looking for some new valves for my TSL122.

Tons of good info here so thanks to all the posters for that. The question I have is, what about these Mullard EL34 "re-issue" ones? Are they any good? They are going for a quite low price on ebay, but are they worth it??? Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Also, as being quite new to Marshall, which valves (pre amp and power ones) would you guys recommend? Again any advice much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Peter


----------



## solarburn

pete3006 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I stumbled on this thread today, as I am looking for some new valves for my TSL122.
> 
> Tons of good info here so thanks to all the posters for that. The question I have is, what about these Mullard EL34 "re-issue" ones? Are they any good? They are going for a quite low price on ebay, but are they worth it??? Any advice would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Also, as being quite new to Marshall, which valves (pre amp and power ones) would you guys recommend? Again any advice much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Peter



Get ready, cause here comes a big wave right at you!

Try the preamp thread too.
http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html

I haven't tried the Mullard RI EL34's yet. Hear tell they are good sound wise. Don't know about reliability wise.


----------



## RiverRatt

Peter, I like the Groove Tubes GTEL34M Mullard reissue better than the Russian Mullard-branded tubes. I've used Electro Harmonix EL34s before, and they weren't bad. SED Winged Cs are good, too. I've not been happy with the JJs I've used but a lot of people like their E34L. I bought a set of them and left them in the amp when I sold it. I don't think that any of them can touch the RFT EL34s I'm using now, but they are NOS and will cost you around $200 for a matched quad.

If you read through the last few pages on the preamp thread, there's been a lot of good discussion lately. Tung-Sol reissues are good current-production tubes in a Marshall. The Ei ECC83s are good tubes and still pretty cheap, but sometimes they are microphonic in combo amps, but they would still make a good V3 or V4 tube. If you want to go old, spend most of your money on your V1 tube - I like the Philips tubes I have (Mullard, Telefunken), and RCAs, Raytheon black plates and GE 12AX7s are good USA tubes. If you find something you're interested in and want more info, just post it over in the preamp thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys ever tried the Matsushita EL34s? They seem to go for pretty cheap when they turn up. Anything at all to the Mullard hype around them? I've seen a couple that were printed "Made in Gt. Britain", and they supposedly used Mullard tooling. One review I found said they were "dry" sounding?!?!


----------



## wegman

Hey guys.

Well I migrated over here because I am going to be in the market for some power tubes. NOS is right out for me so what are you guys liking in CP. I have read good things about the winged =c=, anyone have any experience with them?

I am currrently running Svetlana's which I found out are actually Sovtek, not real Svetlana's (I guess) and I am not happy with them. The GT's I had in my amp were even worse.

I would love to get set of RFT's but I can't justify the price tag. 

Thanks guys


----------



## solarburn

Winged =C='s are a solid toob in a Marshall. Great reliability. I've described how they've sounded before so I'm not going to again hehe. Being lazy...

I prefer the 6CA7EH's.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Winged =C='s are a solid toob in a Marshall. Great reliability. I've described how they've sounded before so I'm not going to again hehe. Being lazy...
> 
> I prefer the 6CA7EH's.



So one vote for the winged =C= then.

What's the story on the 6CA7EH's? I am not familair with them other then they are a direct replacement for the EL34. Don't they have like more bottom end then the EL34 or something like that?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> So one vote for the winged =C= then.
> 
> What's the story on the 6CA7EH's? I am not familair with them other then they are a direct replacement for the EL34. Don't they have like more bottom end then the EL34 or something like that?



They remind me alot of like a JJ EL34L or the KT-77 in their range but to my ears sound better. More chimey in the highs. I can hear more string definition and articulation is great. 

I just think they have a great frequency range and yes a big bottom is part of that. You never really know how a tube will do unless you just put them in and see. I will say the Winged =C='s won't be a wrong choice IMO.

The Ruby EL34BHT are getting real good reviews now. They are the newest version of the BSTR's. I will pick up a pair eventually and try them. 

I always try tubes out in my amp so I have a real say in how the tube performs.


----------



## pete3006

Hi again all,

Thanks for the replies, I am a bit wiser again 
I think I might give the Mullard re-issues a go as for a matched quad set
it is only £45 or $75, so can not go too wrong in the wallet there lol.
By the way, this is the description they give on ebay, maybe some of you can give even more info as to what or how, as like I said before, am relatively new to Marshall amps. And before anything, I have got nothing to do with the ebay seller lol

"*Platinum Matched QUAD of MULLARD EL34 Power tubes 6CA7 / EL-34 NEW*
*TUBE INFO:* _These tubes are Brand NEW Genuine Re-issue MULLARD's from the New Sensor Corporation in New York. They are modeled after the original Mullard XF-4 and have all the sound you would expect from a tube with the Mullard name. Each tube comes in the original Mullard Retail Box with the readings from the factory recorded on each." _


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, it's a little misleading. What's the difference between a tube store that does a 3 per cent match and a "platinum" match? Also, the ad makes it seem as if the tubes are made in New York. They are made at the Sovtek factory in Russia.

Other than that, I have recommended those tubes before. Post back and tell us how they sound and where you have them biased at.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nobody have an opinion on Matsushita EL34s??


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Nobody have an opinion on Matsushita EL34s??



Sorry for missing your question. Any tube made by Matsushita is a quality tube. I would love to be able to buy a dozen or so of their 12AX7's. The EL34's were made during the 60's and up until around 1977. They can be identified by a single seam at the top of the tube. Radio Shack sold a bunch of them, so if you find some EL34's labeled Radio Shack with a seam top, they're Matsushita's. Raytheon and Westinghouse in the early 70's would relabel Matsushita EL34's. They have a very solid reputation and rival the quality of a Mullard. Who was behind the Matsushita plant? It was set up by the big giant, Philips, the parent company of Mullard. The tubes were built on Mullard equipment. Sweet. When they are on EBAY, a pair of strong one's will fetch about $75 to $85. Online tube stores, $35 used and $65 new.

Yeah, Philips was in everybody's business by the early 70's.


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> So one vote for the winged =C= then.
> 
> What's the story on the 6CA7EH's? I am not familair with them other then they are a direct replacement for the EL34. Don't they have like more bottom end then the EL34 or something like that?



I've been reading up on these 6CA7EH tubes. A lot of high gain players love them. They seem to have the best qualities of an EL34 and 6L6. I may have to try these out. 

I found a test report on the Watford Valves website that covers a lot of the tubes we've been talking about. The reviews were done on Marshall lead and bass amps, and some high-end Radford monoblock amps. It's a PDF document, so you may need the Adobe Reader to view it.

http://www.watfordvalves.com/cgi-bin/documents/testreport_46.pdf


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got some real Philips 6CA7's and they are a really nice sounding tube. As described before, a nice fat bottom and very articulate in all registers. Nice top end with some sparkle. I am playing through a 602 with two Eminence Delta PRO 2 speakers. These are neutral, flat speakers. Actually one of the best non-guitar speakers for guitar. They are actually mid-bass drivers for PA systems. They have a flat frequency response from about 45Hz up to about 4.7KHz. What this means is that you can really hear the voice of the tubes.

I'm going to run the 6CA7's for about 30 days as I want to save the for my dream amp that I want to buy.


----------



## wegman

6CA7's huh? 

Sounds interesting. Sounds almost what I would be looking for because I am a high gain player and I am looking to love something. 

You say you are playing them Marty? What kind of style do you play? I thought I heard you mention you do some shredder type style and that is what I am into. Are those tubes clear and really articulate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> 6CA7's huh?
> 
> Sounds interesting. Sounds almost what I would be looking for because I am a high gain player and I am looking to love something.
> 
> You say you are playing them Marty? What kind of style do you play? I thought I heard you mention you do some shredder type style and that is what I am into. Are those tubes clear and really articulate?



Well I guess at one time I thought I was a shredder. No, I play AC/DC, Nugent, 80's stuff was big with me. I like older Clapton. Nowadays, I like hot rod blues. This involves playing hot blues with a Marshall and not a Fender. My live gigging days are starting to dwindle, but I still make it out every once in a while.

I think the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 is a tube worth looking into. A quad is reasonably priced, so your not out of a lot of dough. I love my Philips 6CA7's and I know Joe likes his 6CA7EH's. These may be the tubes you are looking for.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I guess at one time I thought I was a shredder. No, I play AC/DC, Nugent, 80's stuff was big with me. I like older Clapton. Nowadays, I like hot rod blues. This involves playing hot blues with a Marshall and not a Fender. My live gigging days are starting to dwindle, but I still make it out every once in a while.
> 
> I think the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 is a tube worth looking into. A quad is reasonably priced, so your not out of a lot of dough. I love my Philips 6CA7's and I know Joe likes his 6CA7EH's. These may be the tubes you are looking for.



You are referring to the CP Electro-Harmonix correct?

They really do sound like what I would be after and they are in the price range. I may have to check them out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those are the one's. You can always PM Joe for some more feedback.


----------



## wegman

Here are those Black Plate 6L6 GB's


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Here are those Black Plate 6L6 GB's
> 
> View attachment 1527



You know what I wish you would have done? I wish that you would have looked in the organ for a date of manufacture. Those are Sylvania's. They have the green tube codes on the base. I'm thinking those could be 1959 tubes. They would have to be somewhat old, because the 6L6GA and GB were made a long time before the 6L6GC. In fact, the GA and GB have the same spec's as the original all metal 6L6. They can only take 360VDC on the plates.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know what I wish you would have done? I wish that you would have looked in the organ for a date of manufacture. Those are Sylvania's. They have the green tube codes on the base. I'm thinking those could be 1959 tubes. They would have to be somewhat old, because the 6L6GA and GB were made a long time before the 6L6GC. In fact, the GA and GB have the same spec's as the original all metal 6L6. They can only take 360VDC on the plates.



I have access to the organ. I can go and check it for manfacture date. That's not a problem.

I will check on Monday.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cool. On the amplifier, there should be a tube placement chart. Usually there is a date on this. It might not be the exact date, but it would be close. It is sometimes in small print. Also, there might be inspection stickers. These will have a very close date of manufacture on them.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Hi Guys

Ive been a big reader of the pre amp version of this thread for the longest time, and got lots of great info from it, in fact im going to post in it in a few minutes asking about some black plate raythons i have found on ebay, but first this

EL84 PHILIPS MATCHED QUAD (4PCS) NOS BOXED on eBay (end time 05-Dec-09 10:55:16 GMT)

Are these the real deal, and if so why so cheap? Another thing is will they fit in my DSL 401 as i have read elsewhere that the holes in the chasis dont fit all tubes?

thanks

Spirit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Spirit. Those are not real Philips tubes. They are Russian and have been relabled as Philips. They were probably made in the late 80's, early 90's.

They probably are a pretty good sounding EL84. One of the other guys tried American Black Plates up against the Russian EL84's and he went with the Russian tubes. Of course, a lot depends on who and where they are made.

These are probably Sovtek tubes.

There are only a few current production tubes that are bigger that you don't want to use in your amp. It's all about how close the tubes are together and heat transfer.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Spirit. Those are not real Philips tubes. They are Russian and have been relabled as Philips. They were probably made in the late 80's, early 90's.
> 
> They probably are a pretty good sounding EL84. One of the other guys tried American Black Plates up against the Russian EL84's and he went with the Russian tubes. Of course, a lot depends on who and where they are made.
> 
> These are probably Sovtek tubes.
> 
> There are only a few current production tubes that are bigger that you don't want to use in your amp. It's all about how close the tubes are together and heat transfer.




Thanks for that, i have found some real phillips ones but they are more like £40 each, so thats why i had to ask. Bit cheeky that he is saying they are made in '67 though is it not?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, I glanced over that and missed the production date. What's funny is that the Russian EL-84's that I sold to a forum member were made in 1967 as well and they sound fantastic. Those might be some good sounding tubes. 

I just never knew of Philips having to relabel Russian tubes in 1967. In 1967, Philips was the largest tube maker in the world. Why would they buy Russian tubes and put their name on them. Strange indeed?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I'm new here...just bought a 71 Superlead 100w (don't have it yet) and read just about all of the preamp thread and all of this thread...very, very informative and some nice photos.
I have a Trainwreck Rocket clone built by Paul Ruby, rated nominally at 30-35 watts, but like most TWs and clones, it puts out more. This was built for John Speck of the band HiFi Handgrenades, and it is currently my favorite of the 3 amps I have, the others being a Carol-Ann OD2 100 and a Reinhardt Fat Albert 50. When I first got the Rocket (her name is Diana), it had Russian Mullard RIs (EL84s) and some GT 12AX7s. It sounded okay, but after reading lots of posts on the Amp Garage about Rockets, I went ahead and ordered 2 matched quads of 70s Saratov EL84s, 2 Amperex and a Brimar 12AX7s. What an incredible difference these have made in the overall tone and quality of sound; much stronger and clearer cleans, great crunch. If anyone needs EL84s, I highly recommend the Saratovs.
As for the Marshall, I believe it's coming with Siemens EL34s...dont know about the preamps. In anticipation of its arrival, I found a NOS quad of Sylvania Fat Bottle 6CA7s on eBay...expensive, but I've heard they are the best EL34-type tubes out there. I will keep the Siemens in for a while to get used to the Marshall, then try the Sylvanias (or I may just hold on to them). Reports to follow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> I'm new here...just bought a 71 Superlead 100w (don't have it yet) and read just about all of the preamp thread and all of this thread...very, very informative and some nice photos.
> I have a Trainwreck Rocket clone built by Paul Ruby, rated nominally at 30-35 watts, but like most TWs and clones, it puts out more. This was built for John Speck of the band HiFi Handgrenades, and it is currently my favorite of the 3 amps I have, the others being a Carol-Ann OD2 100 and a Reinhardt Fat Albert 50. When I first got the Rocket (her name is Diana), it had Russian Mullard RIs (EL84s) and some GT 12AX7s. It sounded okay, but after reading lots of posts on the Amp Garage about Rockets, I went ahead and ordered 2 matched quads of 70s Saratov EL84s, 2 Amperex and a Brimar 12AX7s. What an incredible difference these have made in the overall tone and quality of sound; much stronger and clearer cleans, great crunch. If anyone needs EL84s, I highly recommend the Saratovs.
> As for the Marshall, I believe it's coming with Siemens EL34s...dont know about the preamps. In anticipation of its arrival, I found a NOS quad of Sylvania Fat Bottle 6CA7s on eBay...expensive, but I've heard they are the best EL34-type tubes out there. I will keep the Siemens in for a while to get used to the Marshall, then try the Sylvanias (or I may just hold on to them). Reports to follow.



Welcome. My name is Marty. Glad to have you on board. Yeah those Saratov's are nice sounding. I actually bought 20 made in 1967. I gave a pair to a friend of mine on the forum. That is what he runs in his Vox Night Train. He picked the Russian tubes over some USA Black Plates. 

You got some sweet amps. I'm going to get a Twister F3. That's my next move.

Funny you should mention 6CA7's as all of a sudden they are getting to be the "in" tube around here. I'm curious, I buy and sell tubes here and on EBAY. Did you buy your Fat Boys from Tina? I knew she had a primo quad for sell. Them tubes are going for over $75 each. I just bought 2 more pair. I'm looking at some others. I'm eventually going to get rid of all my 100 watt amps and go with 50 or 60 watt amps using two power tubes. Plenty of volume and a lot cheaper to replace power tubes.

Just so you know, the Siemens EL34's are actually made by RFT. They are damn good EL34's. I run several quads of them and I have sold some to other forum members. If they are still good, you are all set. The 6CA7's will give you a different tone. They are sort of like small KT88's. They have a lot more clean headroom. They take OD and distortion pedals really well. Hooked up to the right cab and it is devastating.

Make sure you get some good NOS preamp tubes for the Super Lead. They sound especially good with a Telefunken or Amperex (Philips) 12AX7 in V1.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty,
Yes, I did get them from Tina, just the other day...I had emailed her with a lower offer than the listing and she changed the price to my offer so I can get them at the price...really nice of her to do that...she will definitely go on my favorite seller list.
As for the Saratovs, I got them from Terry Kilgore (Sgt Overdrive), another good person to deal with.

Marty, have you ever bought anything from Nixie Tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Marty, have you ever bought anything from Nixie Tubes?



No I haven't. There's so many online tube places I can't keep up with them all.

What's their specialty?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

They seem to specialize in Russian and Eastern block tubes
http://shop.ebay.com/nixiestore/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p4340


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

What would be a good price for a Blackburn made NOS Mullard Amperex Bugle Boy GZ34 5AR4?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's a pair.

GZ34 5AR4 CV1377


----------



## RiverRatt

I did a completed listing search on eBay for Mullard GZ34s. Looks like the prices are all over the place. That's usually a good way to get an idea what they are going for. Looks like the NOS stuff is selling for $100 - $150.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

My son's BluesBreaker RI is arriving this week and he'd like to know which KT66s are good for replacing the stock tubes (5881s I believe)?


----------



## MartyStrat54

He could use the 5881's, but why doesn't he want to stay with the KT66's? If I was going to use 5881's, I would go with NOS. Better reliability and sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody an expert on Svetlana? I got a pair of EL34s with the date code 0009, which should be St. Petersburg tubes and the same as SED Winged C's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Anybody an expert on Svetlana? I got a pair of EL34s with the date code 0009, which should be St. Petersburg tubes and the same as SED Winged C's?



Well they could be the same as long as they were only running one tube line at the time. Do you have a Winged =C= to compare it to? I used to have more knowledge of Russian tubes, but that got pushed in the back when I started getting heavy into 12AX7's.

Are there anymore codes on the tubes? What color is the base?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> He could use the 5881's, but why doesn't he want to stay with the KT66's? If I was going to use 5881's, I would go with NOS. Better reliability and sound.



Marty,
Perhaps my wording was not clear...he wants to replace the 5881s with KT66s.
Which NOS KT66s are good besides the GECs?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well they could be the same as long as they were only running one tube line at the time. Do you have a Winged =C= to compare it to? I used to have more knowledge of Russian tubes, but that got pushed in the back when I started getting heavy into 12AX7's.
> 
> Are there anymore codes on the tubes? What color is the base?



I'll look at them again when I get home later. They have brown bases. It's hard to tell by the construction - the Reflektor tubes look too much like the St. Petersburg tubes. I thought I had read somewhere that anything before 2003 was St. Petersburg.

I'm just organizing my stuff - this pair biases up well and sounds pretty good. I was going to throw them in my bag for a backup set. The bases are a little darkened and the glass is scratched up from being in a box with other tubes, but they seem to have a good bit of life left in them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Marty,
> Perhaps my wording was not clear...he wants to replace the 5881s with KT66s.
> Which NOS KT66s are good besides the GECs?



Well KT66's are not the sort of tube that you find just anywhere. NOS KT66's are extremely pricey (just like KT88's). Probably the best is the Valve Art. Tung-Sol makes a KT66 as well as Sovtek. Shuguang makes a KT66 that likes to be biased hot and is similar to what is used as OE tubes in Marshall JTM45's.

Valve Art retailer:

VALVE ART


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'll look at them again when I get home later. They have brown bases. It's hard to tell by the construction - the Reflektor tubes look too much like the St. Petersburg tubes. I thought I had read somewhere that anything before 2003 was St. Petersburg.
> 
> I'm just organizing my stuff - this pair biases up well and sounds pretty good. I was going to throw them in my bag for a backup set. The bases are a little darkened and the glass is scratched up from being in a box with other tubes, but they seem to have a good bit of life left in them.



I don't remember what the time period is either on that but they definitely can be Winged =C='s if they date right.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a bunch of 1999 date code Svetlanas on eBay which are claimed to be St. Petersburg tubes. Mine look just like them, so that's what I'm going to call them. They are being sold as NOS Svetlanas with the price about the same as new Winged =C= tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like a Winged =C=. Where did you score them from?


----------



## RiverRatt

My junk box 

They were pulled from an old amp. I've got those, a quad of Sovtek EL34Gs (supposed to be a copy of RFT - yeah, right), a pair of GTEL34Ms (that I bought), a couple of smoky top 6V6s, a 5U4GB MIJ, a 5R4 in a BIG ol' bottle, and various oddball stuff. I thought I had some EF86s somewhere in there but I can't find them anymore. Most of them were pulled working. I can't remember where the rectos came from... I did have a BF Super for a year or so, but the 6V6s are probably from my Princeton Reverb days.

Like I said, it's a junk box. Got a few old pots, resistors, ANCIENT CAPS (some Sprague bumblebees, orange drops, Cornell Dubilier), even a tranny or two. My prize junk box item is a pickup from a Schon guitar from the '80s (remember those? Jackson made 'em), with one ear partially broken off.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man that's a blast from the past. Hell, I dug into a couple of boxes a while back and found all sorts of stuff I had forgotten about. I don't need any more rectifier tubes. Good grief I have a bunch of 5U4's and some of the others as well. I found 4, 7027 NIB RCA power tubes (big 6L6GC with 35 watt dissipation). 4 used 7027's. 8, Sylvania FAT BOY 6L6GC's. Then there was the four, 1952 Amperex EL84's and the four, Telefunken EL84's. There was an old mini cassette deck that cost big money when it was new. It didn't work anymore. Some old high dollar headphones from back around 1979. I even found some small hi fi components that I sold on EBAY. What blows my mind is how many CP tubes I have NIB. I must have spent some $$$ with Tube Depot and the Tube Store. I bought some EH-Gold 12AX7's. I counted seven of them, so I must have used one in an amp I sold. They are actually pretty good tubes. I had like 12 of the Sovtek WA and WB. I ask myself, "Why!" Also, some Sovtek LPS. Then there are some Tung-Sol's and Mullards. All in a big cardboard box that I have since emptied and did an inventory of its contents.

I still would like to find me a big old tube organ with 70, 12AX7's, 4, 6L6GC's, 4, 6BQ5's and some nice 12-inch speakers. Sell the amp without tubes on EBAY for $85 and then the speakers (usually alnico's with 25 watt power ratings) and then all of them glorious tubes. Oh did I say I wish it was a Baldwin? They used Sylvania's and Raytheon Black Plates.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can steer you toward a Conn organ that is loaded with tubes. All the ones I could see were 12AU7 cleartops, but surely there were a few 12AX7s in it. They were asking $800. 

I still haven't gotten back to that nasty antique store that has the $100 organ. Maybe this weekend.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Cool. On the amplifier, there should be a tube placement chart. Usually there is a date on this. It might not be the exact date, but it would be close. It is sometimes in small print. Also, there might be inspection stickers. These will have a very close date of manufacture on them.



I checked and did find the tube placement chart. There were no date markings what so ever. I did pull off the serial number plate. I tried looking up the serial number but I couldn't find anything on it. For the record it's a Baldwin Model 30P S/N 30P-11439-A6.

I couldn't even find the model in my searches, it's like it doesn't exist.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

My son got his Blues Breaker today and we saved ourselves some money...it came with Valve Art KT66s , GT 12AX7s, and a JJ rectifier tube....great tones from it


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I had posted, I think the Valve Art KT66's are probably the best KT66 out there. Good score. I will say you can do better than the Groove Tubes in the preamp. Run them for now, but as I always say, "A good NOS tube in V1 will make all the difference in the world." Nonetheless, that's a great amp.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I picked up 3 EI Yugoslavia ECC83 12AX7 1980's for $30 shipped. I'll probably put those in when I get them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good price! I like the Ei ECC83s. They are like a pissed-off Telefunken.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

The 6CA7s arrived from Tina yesterday and I am anxiously awaiting my SL100. Here is a quick photo of the Sylvanias...ran me $420 for the matched quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great beauty shot! I love them tubes. I'm Gassing. I'm Gassing.


----------



## solarburn

30stringsandblackdog said:


> The 6CA7s arrived from Tina yesterday and I am anxiously awaiting my SL100. Here is a quick photo of the Sylvanias...ran me $420 for the matched quad.



I like the 6CA7's alot in my Marshall but I have the EH's current production. Looking forward to hearing how these sound.

I'm done with anything tube wise for now. Saving up for some tweeks to be done on my amp.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great beauty shot! I love them tubes. I'm Gassing. I'm Gassing.



I know huh. I think they'd fit right into mine...


----------



## movo

Hmm nice replacement for my JCM800 Superbass?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

movo said:


> Hmm nice replacement for my JCM800 Superbass?


I have Saratov EL84s in my Rocket clone and they are incredible...they made a world of difference from the Russian Mullard RIs that were in there before. Go for it, especially at that price.


----------



## wegman

Has any one ever done business with deep surplus for tubes? They have a quad of EH 6CA7's for $69. Seems pretty resonable.

http://www.deepsurplus.com/Electro-Harmonix-6CA7EH-Matched-Quad-Quartet


----------



## MartyStrat54

Never heard of those guys, but those are the tubes that SolarBurn is running and he is really happy with them. Maybe he leave a response once he sees this.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Has any one ever done business with deep surplus for tubes? They have a quad of EH 6CA7's for $69. Seems pretty resonable.
> 
> Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH Matched Quad/Quartet



I checked out the shipping to me and the total price comes out to $78. Still a good deal. I've never ordered from here so I don't know anything about this place. 

It would cost me $92 including shipping if I ordered a quad from the Tube Store. Of course I trust the Tube Store to take care of me if any problems arise within 3 months.

Marty I've already told him they are winners in my amp.


----------



## Landshark

I only read about a page and a half so this may have been covered... Is there any real difference between a regular el34 and an el34b? It there is then how do they compare and how does the el34b compare toan e34l?


----------



## solarburn

Landshark said:


> I only read about a page and a half so this may have been covered... Is there any real difference between a regular el34 and an el34b? It there is then how do they compare and how does the el34b compare toan e34l?



Frequency ranges. Warmer, fatter bigger bottom. It depends on the tubes. The Svetlana have very little bottom end but focus on the mids and highs. The 34L's have a nice bottom, thick lower mids and smooth highs. The 34B's are warm and fat. All of them differ in articulation as well. The Winged =C='s to me have a nice balance of each. So pick what you think needs improvement wise on your amp's tone and see how they fit. I've have all the above tubes mentioned. I absolutely don't like the Svetlana's in mine. Everything else here I would have no problem using for their tones.

I'm just talking tone wise and not reliability and the descriptions above are using my ears only.


----------



## Landshark

Well I found a back up head for pretty cheap on ebay that came stock with el34b's and I wanted to make sure I could swap out for e34ls if I wanted to. I may like the el34b's in it though... have to see when it gets here...


----------



## solarburn

Landshark said:


> Well I found a back up head for pretty cheap on ebay that came stock with el34b's and I wanted to make sure I could swap out for e34ls if I wanted to. I may like the el34b's in it though... have to see when it gets here...



Oh absolutely. If they are EL34's they will fit. The B or L doesn't change the fact they are EL34's so they will pop right in man.

I prefer the tone of the 34L's but that's me. The 34B's are decent though if they are healthy...


----------



## Landshark

I dig the 34l's as well but the amp is a Vox AC 100 and I'm gonna play with it a little to see how it compares to my TSL... If I like the tones mixed together I may keep it that way but I have an extra quad of 34l's to try if need be.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How much did you pay for the VOX? That's a ballsy amp. What year model is it?


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> How much did you pay for the VOX? That's a ballsy amp. What year model is it?



Not sure on the year but it was brand new, in the box, never opened... for the whopping price of... $569.99!!!



Yea pretty sweet right?!!!

Edit: It's the Classic Plus Head. I still haven't got a clue on the year.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, that's a killer deal on a NOS/NIB VOX amp. I got my Traynor YCS100 for $550 and I love that amp. It is Traynor's version of a TSL100.

Great score dude.


----------



## Jesstaa

movo said:


> Hmm nice replacement for my JCM800 Superbass?



Wow, I think I might have to pick up some of them, I need a replacement quad for my amp, and that's really cheap (Like $90 AUD including shipping)

Edit: What do you reckon would be better, the ones in the above link, or these

6L6GC MATCHED QUAD, NOS 1984, SUPERB SOUNDING TUBES. on eBay (end time 11-Dec-09 12:02:09 GMT)

The WGCs have the exact same design as the set I blew up in my amp a while back xD

Edit: Just checked the exchange rate (Better than I thought it was) and it'd only be $63 AUD for the 6L6GCs o.0


----------



## MartyStrat54

The ones I bought were all made in 1967 and they were killer. I think I bought a box with 20 of them. I think I have 8 left. All the people who tried them were very happy. I don't know if these 1984 tubes are the same, or as good.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> The ones I bought were all made in 1967 and they were killer. I think I bought a box with 20 of them. I think I have 8 left. All the people who tried them were very happy. I don't know if these 1984 tubes are the same, or as good.




Still better than 2009 tubes I guess. I'll have to buy some as soon as I can.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, that's a killer deal on a NOS/NIB VOX amp. I got my Traynor YCS100 for $550 and I love that amp. It is Traynor's version of a TSL100.
> 
> Great score dude.



Thanks Dude! It should be here within the next week. Then I won't know which amp to play being as I haven't had my tsl for about a month.

Maybe I'll just play both at the same time...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> Thanks Dude! It should be here within the next week. Then I won't know which amp to play being as I haven't had my tsl for about a month.
> 
> Maybe I'll just play both at the same time...



Like Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick. He used to do five or six Hamers all plugged into their own Marshall amps.

Hey, what color is your Elite? Mine is the red one and I put DiMarzio's in it. I have pic's posted of it on my home page.


----------



## Landshark

It's the red one also... I had an invader in it but I've taken that out and am looking for a new set other then the Duncan design. I thought about trying the SD blackouts just to see what they were like. Or some JBs although I was really pretty pleased with the invader. Extra crunchy on my TSL's crunchy channel... well from what I remember. LOL!

I wanted the Caiman Blue version really bad when it came out but I never got the funds for one and then they stopped production. Sigh...

Any way i'll let y'all get back to power tubes... sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't let it bother you. I blabber and high jack threads all the time. So far I haven't been arrested.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

These are the tubes that came in the Super Lead...can someone identify these for me...thanks (the 4th one was in the amp)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh that's an easy one. Those are RFT's. Really nice tube. The last NOS quad I bought was $200. RFT made tubes for at least a dozen companies, including Telefunken. I have some smooth plate ECC83's that are labeled Telefunken, but they are actually made by RFT. 

The tubes are tough and have the 600V rating. They sound good too, Enjoy.

Edit: I found this site. Take a minute to look it over. Your tubes are about halfway down the page.

It's all in German. Thank goodness for pictures.

http://www.jogis-roehrenbude.de/EL34-Story/EL34-Story-Seite4.htm


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Thanks, Marty, helpful as usual.


----------



## David Moore

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I checked out the shipping to me and the total price comes out to $78. Still a good deal. I've never ordered from here so I don't know anything about this place.
> 
> It would cost me $92 including shipping if I ordered a quad from the Tube Store. Of course I trust the Tube Store to take care of me if any problems arise within 3 months.
> 
> Marty I've already told him they are winners in my amp.



Cool thread, I've read the first four pages so far. I'm gonna have to check out Tech Tube, they really interest me. Anyways, I was drawn to this thread/forum because I work for Deep Surplus (thanks for the links) and I just wanted to mention we have a 90 day return policy also. 

(I'm gonna go back to reading the rest of the thread now)


----------



## solarburn

David Moore said:


> Cool thread, I've read the first four pages so far. I'm gonna have to check out Tech Tube, they really interest me. Anyways, I was drawn to this thread/forum because I work for Deep Surplus (thanks for the links) and I just wanted to mention we have a 90 day return policy also.
> 
> (I'm gonna go back to reading the rest of the thread now)



Tech Tube is done. I'll keep you in mind then for CP tubes. Welcome to our little haven of glass thread too hehe. Lots of reading to do...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, Tech Tube is really old news. They colasped about two or three months ago. Too bad, as they were going to make an EL34 besides the 12AX7.

If you get bored, here is the other tube thread. A little place I call home.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html


----------



## David Moore

Thanks for the welcome guys, that's a disappointment that tube tech went under... I'm always looking for things like that to carry. I'll go check out the preamp thread too.

Dave


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, Tech Tube is really old news. They colasped about two or three months ago. Too bad, as they were going to make an EL34 besides the 12AX7.
> 
> If you get bored, here is the other tube thread. A little place I call home.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html



Gat damn Marty I thought I was on the preamp thread...

I just woke up a little while ago hehe. Thanks for giving the link.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Regarding RFT El 34's...Is RFT the brand name? Or are they a division of another company? I'm interested in getting some NOS RFT el 34's for my JCM 900 2500. Thanks!


----------



## LPMarshall hack

NOS Siemens EL34 Tubes Matched Pair (RFT, Telefunken) - eBay (item 150395037966 end time Dec-12-09 11:49:38 PST)

Saw these on ebay. Would they work well in a JCM 900 2500? Any input would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## RiverRatt

They will work very well. I'm running a pair in my DSL50. They are about as close as you can get to a NOS Mullard without mortgaging the house. I've bought from that seller before, too, and he's always treated me right.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

RiverRatt said:


> They will work very well. I'm running a pair in my DSL50. They are about as close as you can get to a NOS Mullard without mortgaging the house. I've bought from that seller before, too, and he's always treated me right.




God to hear. He's got excellent feedback. Thanks!


----------



## solarburn

LPMarshall hack said:


> Regarding RFT El 34's...Is RFT the brand name? Or are they a division of another company? I'm interested in getting some NOS RFT el 34's for my JCM 900 2500. Thanks!



Here ya go.

RFT EL34


----------



## LPMarshall hack

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here ya go.
> 
> RFT EL34



Thanks! So if they are made by several companies, is RFT a type of EL 34? Or is it a model #?


----------



## MartyStrat54

LPMarshall hack said:


> Thanks! So if they are made by several companies, is RFT a type of EL 34? Or is it a model #?



No, RFT is the company. They made all the tubes. RFT sold tubes to over twelve companies. It could say Siemens and it is really an RFT. It could say Telefunken and it's still an RFT.

You can save a little money and buy them from Sanborn. I've bought two quads from him and the tubes were flawless. Plus he guarantees them.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

NOS Siemens EL34 Tubes Matched Pair (RFT, Telefunken) - eBay (item 150395037966 end time Dec-12-09 11:49:38 PST)

Anybody know what these would sound like in a JCM 900 2500? I know that's probably a hard question to answer. Also, what are some of the characteristics of a failing power amp tube? In other words, what would your amp do or start to sound like? Thanks!


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Question for the tubies here: would British KT8s be a replacement for KT66s with an adapter


----------



## MartyStrat54

What are you trying to do? I would stay with the KT-66's. No matter what you do, the KT-88's will be running underpowered.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> What are you trying to do? I would stay with the KT-66's. No matter what you do, the KT-88's will be running underpowered.


Marty,
These are British KT8s, not 88s. Do you have any info on those?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought that was a typo. Man, a KT8 is a very obscure tube probably made in the 40's. I say this as it has the HT going through a metal tip on the top of the tube. A CV1079 is a sub for the KT8.

I ran the number through all of my data banks and there is hardly anything on it. It shows that it is capable of 600V on the plates. I also found a guy selling NOS/NIB KT8's for about $22 each.

That's about it. It was at some point a popular power tube in the UK.


----------



## wegman

How much influence do power tubes have on ones sound? While my amp is sounding 100 times better then it did with the vintage tubes it still doesn't "sing" like it used to or have those nice sonic over tones.

Do the power tubes really make that much difference?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> How much influence do power tubes have on ones sound? While my amp is sounding 100 times better then it did with the vintage tubes it still doesn't "sing" like it used to or have those nice sonic over tones.
> 
> Do the power tubes really make that much difference?



At volume yes. Helps with sustain, overtones popping out and feel or response. Sometimes the differences are measured in shades and not night and day changes. That's why I only like certain ones and not just any one you plop in there. Just as important a place to focus on in achieving the best tone you can get out of your amp.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> At volume yes. Helps with sustain, overtones popping out and feel or response. Sometimes the differences are measured in shades and not night and day changes. That's why I only like certain ones and not just any one you plop in there. Just as important a place to focus on in achieving the best tone you can get out of your amp.



Before even not having the amp cranked it had a nice tonal singing quality and it was super clean. 

Here check this out:

Tears, created by John Weglarz and presented through ACIDplanet.com


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Before even not having the amp cranked it had a nice tonal singing quality and it was super clean.
> 
> Here check this out:
> 
> Tears, created by John Weglarz and presented through ACIDplanet.com



I'm listening to it now. How long since changing the power tubes? If they are tired its going to effect your amp's tone.

That was good John! That clip was when the power tubes were fresh?


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm listening to it now. How long since changing the power tubes? If they are tired its going to effect your amp's tone.
> 
> That was good John! That clip was when the power tubes were fresh?



No. That was my original set of tubes from when I bought the amp back in 91. They were at least 12-15 years old.

I figured they needed to be changed so I bought a set of Svetlanas. The tech said they were bad and put GT's which is what I am using now. They sound nothing like that clip.

Cool you liked the clip. That was two takes, one on the acoustic and one on the melody made up on the spot.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> No. That was my original set of tubes from when I bought the amp back in 91. They were at least 12-15 years old.
> 
> I figured they needed to be changed so I bought a set of Svetlanas. The tech said they were bad and put GT's which is what I am using now. They sound nothing like that clip.
> 
> Cool you liked the clip. That was two takes, one on the acoustic and one on the melody made up on the spot.



Dude you can play. I dug it alot. You know I'm into blues and rock but I appreciate other genres too.

What Gt's are they? Usually they will have a letter designating what tubes. I've got a set of M's I'm demoing right now and these are the Mullard RI El34's.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Dude you can play. I dug it alot. You know I'm into blues and rock but I appreciate other genres too.
> 
> What Gt's are they? Usually they will have a letter designating what tubes. I've got a set of M's I'm demoing right now and these are the Mullard RI El34's.



Hey thanks for the kind words Solar, I appreciate that.

Ok I just plucked one out of my amp and it says it is a GTE34LS AKA 6CA7. They are a performance 5 and I just got jelly on it because I am eating a PBJ as I am typing this.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Hey thanks for the kind words Solar, I appreciate that.
> 
> Ok I just plucked one out of my amp and it says it is a GTE34LS AKA 6CA7. They are a performance 5 and I just got jelly on it because I am eating a PBJ as I am typing this.



Are these fat bottles?

P&J FTW!


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Are these fat bottles?
> 
> P&J FTW!



Negative, they are standard EL34s.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Negative, they are standard EL34s.



I only see the LS designation for their EL34L's which are the same as JJ EL34L. The 6CA7 is definitely fatter than the regular EL34 type. I was looking at pics of them from GT and they have a designation of GE6CA7 which is a fat bottle tube. 

So I'm thinking then you have EL34L's(JJ)but GT's brand on them. What don't you like about them?


----------



## wegman

I want to thank you for taking the time to help me out. That is really cool of you.

They sound thin to me and don't have nice sonic qualitys. They don't have that tone like on the clip. They are like more noisy or higher gain or something.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> I want to thank you for taking the time to help me out. That is really cool of you.
> 
> They sound thin to me and don't have nice sonic qualitys. They don't have that tone like on the clip. They are like more noisy or higher gain or something.



They are more aggressive right? Do you have a 50watt or 100 watt? I don't remember and I can't see your sig in this mode.


----------



## wegman

Yes more aggresive is good way to explain it.

I have a JCM 800 2210. It's 100 watts, 4 power tubes

Were giving the power tube thread a work out eh?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Yes more aggresive is good way to explain it.
> 
> I have a JCM 800 2210. It's 100 watts, 4 power tubes
> 
> Were giving the power tube thread a work out eh?



Damn! I was hoping you had a 50 watter cause I would send you some power tubes to try out but I only have pairs cause I got a 50wtr.

RR didn't like those tubes in his either. I put some in mine and found them aggressive. You know these GT EL34M's(Mullard RI)sound pretty good. I'm not getting any thinness from these. Nice and warm ready to rock. I haven't cranked them yet but I like what I'm hearing so far. What does your guy have for sale? Call and ask him and then get back to me. I've got some ideas. Here are some I like:

1. Winged =C=(not Svetlana's)
2. Mullard RI
3. Tung Sol's 
4. 6CA7 EH's
5. Ruby BHT's(suppose to be more durable than the BSTR's)

I think the GT EL34Ls are too hairy for you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What happened to your RFT's?


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Damn! I was hoping you had a 50 watter cause I would send you some power tubes to try out but I only have pairs cause I got a 50wtr.
> 
> RR didn't like those tubes in his either. I put some in mine and found them aggressive. You know these GT EL34M's(Mullard RI)sound pretty good. I'm not getting any thinness from these. Nice and warm ready to rock. I haven't cranked them yet but I like what I'm hearing so far. What does your guy have for sale? Call and ask him and then get back to me. I've got some ideas. Here are some I like:
> 
> 1. Winged =C=(not Svetlana's)
> 2. Mullard RI
> 3. Tung Sol's
> 4. 6CA7 EH's
> 5. Ruby BHT's(suppose to be more durable than the BSTR's)
> 
> I think the GT EL34Ls are too hairy for you.



I am leaning toward the 6CA7's actually. I have read alot of good things about them and I am thinking they just might be the ticket. I am looking for very clean with alot of articulation.

Is there anything more you can say about the 6CA7's that hasn't already been said?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> What happened to your RFT's?



I still have them. They are great of course. Its just those are more spendy especially for a 100 watter so I just kind of stick to certain CP power tubes when I'm recommending unless someone can spend more for NOS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I wasn't talking about recommending them, I sort of figured you were just talking about CP power tubes. I just thought that maybe you had sold them to the kid down at the end of the block.

BTW, how do you rank the RFT's up against the CP power tubes you have tried, especially the 6CA7EH?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> I am leaning toward the 6CA7's actually. I have read alot of good things about them and I am thinking they just might be the ticket. I am looking for very clean with alot of articulation.
> 
> Is there anything more you can say about the 6CA7's that hasn't already been said?



I still dig em' the most. I'm hoping to get these Mullards up to some volume here soon. They do sound good too. I have to wait for pops to go out to breakfast to unleash though. He's get'n old and doesn't leave much. We're taking care of him for as long as we can. 

Marty mentioned the RFT's and they kick ass but I was thinking of keeping your cost down.

I guess I can tell you that i like these other power tubes I have but I keep wanting to put the 6CA7EH's back in after I run others. I just really like their character and I think the articulation of these will work well for you. I hope I don't steer you wrong...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, I wasn't talking about recommending them, I sort of figured you were just talking about CP power tubes. I just thought that maybe you had sold them to the kid down at the end of the block.
> 
> BTW, how do you rank the RFT's up against the CP power tubes you have tried, especially the 6CA7EH?



I like the 6CA7EH's a bit more. That said either one is a win in my amp. These Mullards I'm trying may give the RFT's a run for the money for second place but I haven't yanked on them yet. I know the RFT's are solid at volume.


----------



## solarburn

Go'n out for dinner. Be back at it in a while.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I still dig em' the most. I'm hoping to get these Mullards up to some volume here soon. They do sound good too. I have to wait for pops to go out to breakfast to unleash though. He's get'n old and doesn't leave much. We're taking care of him for as long as we can.
> 
> Marty mentioned the RFT's and they kick ass but I was thinking of keeping your cost down.
> 
> I guess I can tell you that i like these other power tubes I have but I keep wanting to put the 6CA7EH's back in after I run others. I just really like their character and I think the articulation of these will work well for you. I hope I don't steer you wrong...



No worries. At the end of the day the decision is mine so if I get upset with anybody it will be me!

Yes keeping costs down is the key here. I wish I could go NOS but that is right out. Accounting (wifee) is pretty tough with my hobby expenditures.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wegman, I thought the same thing about the E34Ls as you... thin an nothing musical about them. They were like turning the presence up to 10. I didn't notice the wonderful low end that everybody always talks about, either. 

Joe, I'm glad you're liking the EL34Ms. I may have to break down and try some of those 6CA7s sometime. I just hate pulling the RFTs - I've got my amp sounding like I want. I'm going to have a hard time finding something I like better in a pre or power tube. If I do, I'm pretty sure they will be NOS and made by one of the Philips clan.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Wegman, I thought the same thing about the E34Ls as you... thin an nothing musical about them. They were like turning the presence up to 10. I didn't notice the wonderful low end that everybody always talks about, either.



Good then it's not just me.

They just sound flat and sterile to me. They don't sing at all. Also agreed about the bottom end. I see nothing special there either.

I am really thinking the 6CA7's are going to be the ticket.


----------



## RiverRatt

There's got to be something that I'm missing with the JJs. I wonder now if I had them biased hot enough. I heard before I bought them that the E34L was rated at 30 watts max dissipation instead of the usual 25 w. The guy I bought them from said no they weren't and to bias them up as usual. He's a pretty big dealer with an excellent reputation, so I took him at his word. Anybody had a positive experience with these tubes? Solar, how were yours biased?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> There's got to be something that I'm missing with the JJs. I wonder now if I had them biased hot enough. I heard before I bought them that the E34L was rated at 30 watts max dissipation instead of the usual 25 w. The guy I bought them from said no they weren't and to bias them up as usual. He's a pretty big dealer with an excellent reputation, so I took him at his word. Anybody had a positive experience with these tubes? Solar, how were yours biased?



I actually liked them. I thought the top end was smooth or rolled off, the mids and bottom thick. Thought they were more aggressive than some. I didn't think I was getting any thinness but I've had them out and others in since so to be accurate I'd have to pop them back in again and check. TBH though I remember them filling out nicely with more volume. I was more worried of a failure with the rep on these than bad tone. So I liked these and KT-77 tone wise. Maybe you didn't like the tightness the 34L has...? I don't know...I don't remember anything that made think they sound bad.

Lately I've been biasing everything at around 34mv to 36mv. Just a bit under the 70%. Between or at 65 and 70%.

What speakers are you guys running? V30's? I'm running greenbacks.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I actually liked them. I thought the top end was smooth or rolled off, the mids and bottom thick. Thought they were more aggressive than some. I didn't think I was getting any thinness but I've had them out and others in since so to be accurate I'd have to pop them back in again and check. TBH though I remember them filling out nicely with more volume. I was more worried of a failure with the rep on these than bad tone. So I liked these and KT-77 tone wise. Maybe you didn't like the tightness the 34L has...? I don't know...I don't remember anything that made think they sound bad.
> 
> Lately I've been biasing everything at around 34mv to 36mv. Just a bit under the 70%. Between or at 65 and 70%.
> 
> What speakers are you guys running? V30's? I'm running greenbacks.



Umm, well, I'm still using the G12T-75's that came in the 1960 cabinet. I know they aren't the best, but I'm kinda stuck with them for now. Actually, they aren't that bad now that they're good and broken in, just probably not as good as the others. I think the G12H-30s have the tone I'm after, I just can't afford them now. One of these days, I'm going to pick up a couple (maybe Hellatones - they're cheaper), and if I like those, I might get a couple more.

I don't remember any tightness with the 34Ls, just the lack of any meat to the tone. I had a 100 watt head when I tried them, and anything over 2 on the master volume would piss of the wife and neighbors. I cranked them a couple of times, and they weren't as bad clean, but with higher gain you could hear a lot of odd harmonics. They just sounded nasty. I thought the filter caps might be going - the tone was that bad - but I had a quad of EH EL34s and they sounded fine.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I actually liked them. I thought the top end was smooth or rolled off, the mids and bottom thick. Thought they were more aggressive than some. I didn't think I was getting any thinness but I've had them out and others in since so to be accurate I'd have to pop them back in again and check. TBH though I remember them filling out nicely with more volume. I was more worried of a failure with the rep on these than bad tone. So I liked these and KT-77 tone wise. Maybe you didn't like the tightness the 34L has...? I don't know...I don't remember anything that made think they sound bad.
> 
> Lately I've been biasing everything at around 34mv to 36mv. Just a bit under the 70%. Between or at 65 and 70%.
> 
> What speakers are you guys running? V30's? I'm running greenbacks.



Ok you heard the clip with my old tubes.

Here is a clip of the GT tubes. I don't know but they just sound flat and dead to me.

ACIDplanet.com Media Player


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Umm, well, I'm still using the G12T-75's that came in the 1960 cabinet. I know they aren't the best, but I'm kinda stuck with them for now. Actually, they aren't that bad now that they're good and broken in, just probably not as good as the others. I think the G12H-30s have the tone I'm after, I just can't afford them now. One of these days, I'm going to pick up a couple (maybe Hellatones - they're cheaper), and if I like those, I might get a couple more.
> 
> I don't remember any tightness with the 34Ls, just the lack of any meat to the tone. I had a 100 watt head when I tried them, and anything over 2 on the master volume would piss of the wife and neighbors. I cranked them a couple of times, and they weren't as bad clean, but with higher gain you could hear a lot of odd harmonics. They just sounded nasty. I thought the filter caps might be going - the tone was that bad - but I had a quad of EH EL34s and they sounded fine.



I wonder whats up with that cause my sound test went pretty good. Maybe your's were hurt'n. Wouldn't surprise me that it was more of a bad set than a good tube you just don't like. I mean you might just not like them and I understand that but your description of what sounded bad on them makes me wonder more about the condition of them as opposed to you just didn't like the tone. Your speakers are scooped in the mids, good bottom and have alot of sizzle on top. I would think the 34L's would restrain some of that sizzle on top and be right at home with the lowend of these speakers. Maybe the mids were being suppressed too much but I'm not sure unless we had cabs going head to head and hear the results firsthand.

You have a 50 wtr right? For shits and giggles if you want I could send my 34L's back with the rest of the tubes we are exchanging and you could put it to rest. I know mine are in good condition and then we would know whether it was just the tone you don't like or maybe the other ones had issues. Actually it would be an easy and painless experiment we'd do for the heck of it.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Ok you heard the clip with my old tubes.
> 
> Here is a clip of the GT tubes. I don't know but they just sound flat and dead to me.
> 
> ACIDplanet.com Media Player



Was that pretty representative of how they sound in person? Recordings can change things.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Was that pretty representative of how they sound in person? Recordings can change things.



That's actually probably better because the recording was EQ'd for optimum tone.

I don't think they sound anything like my original tubes


----------



## solarburn

Head'n to the gym guys be back later.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> That's actually probably better because the recording was EQ'd for optimum tone.
> 
> I don't think they sound anything like my original tubes



I'll get back to you later John on this. If they sound bad then you need something else. RR had the same happen with his so it may be that its a case of just not liking them. I will say mine did sound good and didn't have the bad traits both of you are saying. Boy do I feel like the odd one out...LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You have a 50 wtr right? For shits and giggles if you want I could send my 34L's back with the rest of the tubes we are exchanging and you could put it to rest. I know mine are in good condition and then we would know whether it was just the tone you don't like or maybe the other ones had issues. Actually it would be an easy and painless experiment we'd do for the heck of it.



Sure. I'll give them a shot. I'm curious, too. I haven't tried them with this head, and I'm a lot more familiar with it than the 100 watter. It was a Laney high-gain monster, and it was loud as all hell. Pretty much a standard 2203 circuit with an extra preamp valve. I just never really warmed up to it. To get it loud enough to sound good, people in the next county could hear it (no shit).


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sure. I'll give them a shot. I'm curious, too. I haven't tried them with this head, and I'm a lot more familiar with it than the 100 watter. It was a Laney high-gain monster, and it was loud as all hell. Pretty much a standard 2203 circuit with an extra preamp valve. I just never really warmed up to it. To get it loud enough to sound good, people in the next county could hear it (no shit).



Hahahaha! What an an ear buster!

Yeah will do that then and see what happens. If I get a chance I will send them sooner while I'm still trying yours out. I have no problem paying the little bit of shipping to exchange tubes however many times we do it hehe. That way you can get into the Tele, RFT & 34L's sooner. I'll see what I can do. Christmas time kinda slows everything up especially postal.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody want to take a chance on these? I'd love to hear them. Hell, I'd like to see them. I've never seen a more understated auction. The title is longer than the description!!! Has anyone here used this seller before? I'm afraid to take a chance without seeing some test results, but I've really been wanting a set of Matsushitas.

4 X EL34 TUBE MATSUSHITA JAPAN CLONE OF MULLARD RIBBED


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are these nipple tips. WTF no pictures. That alone will keep me away. If the guy had some pic's and some test results that would be nice. For all you know you are getting four worn out tubes. What a shitty listing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Double post by forum server error.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a pic from Tube Monger.











$90 for a very good matched pair. $40 per tube. These are a great example of tubes that were made for the American brands. I'm finding these tubes labeled as RCA, Sylvania and GE.

https://www.tubeworld.com/6ca7.htm#japan

Some even say, "Made in Gt. Britain." as noted on the tubes in this ad.

NOS Russian / Japanese EL34

Okay, this is as interesting as the all German RFT page.

Audio EU Pentode

According to my research, Matsushita was making tubes by 1960 and then Philips brought over some additional equipment and Matsushita made the Amperex brand as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hahaha.. the auction got fixed. I guess when four people ask you the same question in one day, something's wrong. There's now pictures and a description:

4 X EL34 TUBE MATSUSHITA JAPAN CLONE OF MULLARD RIBBED

"test as 54, 54, 56, 56 when 30 is good on TV-7.
THERE ARE ALSO 2 NICE RED OWN CARTONS.
GOOD LUCK."

Marty, you've mentioned a TV-7 before. Are those numbers good?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just went there before reading your current post and I sent the seller a message. I told him that I was LMAO over all the people that can't read his listing. I mean it's funny to see how dumb some people are.

Yes, those are pretty decent numbers on the TV-7. The tubes are good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I see that the price has doubled with this new information posted. Whyinthehell would someone list a 7-day auction and wait 5 1/2 days to post the pictures and info?!?! I think I'm out of the running on this one. I'd love to chase them, but right now I'm after preamp tube bargains.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you seen the prices I listed. If they go above that, it's not a good deal.

I just watched a quad of Telefunken EL34's (RFT's?) go for $152 with shipping from Germany. I've never been able to find out if Telefunken even made an EL34. They may have been all RFT's. With that being said, I would rather buy from Sanborn and get a quad of new RFT's for $199 and shipping from the US.

It's like US 6CA7's. Only Sylvania and GE made them. I had a guy who had two of them that had RCA on them and he wouldn't believe me that the tubes were in fact Sylvania's. I ended up buying them (high bidder) and they tested horrible. I sent them back. Price? $175. Yes, those NOS 6CA7's are way high. I'm still trying to find a decent pair. The best I have is 73/73. A great match...just low.


----------



## solarburn

Here's a heads up report on the new Shuguang EL34BH's from Doug Roccaforte who's been trying them in his amps:

output tube warning/info--shuguang EL34BH
About a month ago I was sent some of the new Shuguang EL34BH,
these are the new tube supposed to handle up to 600V.

I recieved these tubes during the building of a tube tester,
which is also an audio amplifier (push pull 100watts).
They were the first set of tubes I installed into this unit
once it was ready to run.
The matching was all over the place on two tubes, and it
was humming loud so I stopped.
I recieved another batch of these tubes last week,
and this afternoon installed a set into another known
working amplifier.
As soon as I took it off of standby, there was hum,
BUT, all tubes were drawing equal current.
Strange as it sounds, this wasn't a short, or matching problem
like the first set seemed to be.....

So, I pulled the tubes and installed a second set.
This time the current draw was equal again,
but the amplifier would not pass audio.
Just as if my output transformer shorted by changing tubes!

A few swear words later I was thinking how could this be?
I put the amplifiers original set of tubes back in, and the amplifier
passes audio again.
I also put in NOS mulards, they passed audio too! yeah!

Here's the deal on these new Shuguang EL34 BH's:
Pins 3+6 are internally connected.
So, if you put these into a push-pull amplifier that
uses pin #6 on the output tube socket as a screen
resistor connection, you'll have phase cancellation
because the plates on both sides are feeding through
the screen supply.
My guess is that this internal connection was put there
as part of solving some kind of "flash over" issue
in the base when running these at 600V.
(7027's have similar base connections for this type
of voltage rating. btw, 7027's are just rebased 6L6GC's)
Anyway,
make a note of this if you're planing to use these EL34BH's.
We're not sure how many are based like these, check them
if you have any before using them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great, it's like sticking a 7027 in your amp. If you remember, I contacted the Tube Store and the Tube Depot about this and they said the same thing. You would physically have to rework the tube sockets and then they would work. 

Why now would you have to do the same thing with an EL34? It doesn't affect me though, because I will never use them.


----------



## wegman

I have been reading alot of good stuff about the EH6CA7's. I will probably be picking up set just after Christmas (Christmas cash). I have in my head from all my reading of how I think they will sound. If they come close they are going to kick ass.

Once I get organized I will give a full report.

Party on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I reported over in the Preamp Thread, I got an email from a West German tube seller and he told me that all Telefunken EL34's were in fact made by RFT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy business is slow. The tube threads are getting a little hard to find. I thought I would revive this and say that depending on the weather (it's a blizzard here) I will be getting a couple of pairs of Sylvania FAT BOY 6CA7's. One pair is a very rare Triple O Getter tube. It is reported to be the best 6CA7 ever made. Needless to say I am stoked to get it. The other pair are Sylvania Double O Getters. Nice tubes, nice price.

I'll post pictures when I get them.


----------



## axl2

I just got my JJ-E34L's from the Euro tube site. I had Svetlana EL34 in the power tubes. With JJ-ECC83 in the pre amps. 

I talked to the guy on the Euro Tube site and he suggested that the Sventlana tubes were causing the thin, high pitch problem I was encountering through my DSL 100 when I turned it up loud. So I thought I'd give the E34L's a chance.

At first I plugged them in and it was still about the same thinness at home. However I usually use a pedal with an EQ to lower the Highs and bring up the Bass. When I turned the amp up to about 3-4 at rehearsal. I didn't even need the OD pedal as I was getting a more rounded thick tone. I can just use the EQ pedal to boost mid and some low end and it sounds AMAZING. 

So much better then my old tubes. At first I didn't think there'd be a difference. With the Svetlana the higher the volume the harsher the tone, but with these the louder you go the more low end thump you get and a way more rounding sound. With an EQ infront you can mold it into exactly what you like. 

Now If you are going for a harsh sounding lead with lots of cut then I would recommend the Sventlanas, but that's not for me. Think Ac/Dc, ZZ Top.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for your review. We appreciate members taking their time to post their reviews about their tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok Joe, I just finished with your JJ E34Ls. I have to admit, they sounded better than I remembered. Part of that may be that my preamp tubes are a lot better than they were then. It's the mids that bother me about these - the thickness and punch that I get from the RFTs is just not there, especially clean. A high-gain player would probably like the JJs - they sounded better the more gain I dialed in. I would still put them low on my list, but I'm glad you let me try them with this amp.


----------



## axl2

RiverRatt said:


> Ok Joe, I just finished with your JJ E34Ls. I have to admit, they sounded better than I remembered. Part of that may be that my preamp tubes are a lot better than they were then. It's the mids that bother me about these - the thickness and punch that I get from the RFTs is just not there, especially clean. A high-gain player would probably like the JJs - they sounded better the more gain I dialed in. I would still put them low on my list, but I'm glad you let me try them with this amp.



I'm a fairly high gain player. Slash, Zakk Wylde Metallica type stuff. When playing loud it is great for this stuff. haha I haven't tried it without the high gain. I do know the amp needs to be LOUD before they sound thick and punchy. When I played under 3 I was very disappointed in them.

My old tubes sounded worse the more gain and volume they had.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ok Joe, I just finished with your JJ E34Ls. I have to admit, they sounded better than I remembered. Part of that may be that my preamp tubes are a lot better than they were then. It's the mids that bother me about these - the thickness and punch that I get from the RFTs is just not there, especially clean. A high-gain player would probably like the JJs - they sounded better the more gain I dialed in. I would still put them low on my list, but I'm glad you let me try them with this amp.



Yeah anytime Alan. I see lots of guys liking these and Wilder uses them in his builds. I thought they were pretty good sounding but I'd say I like the Mullard RI's more.

The 6CA7EH's seem to be my weapon of choice now as I can't keep them out of my amp. Luv em' for what I play. Eventually I'll get a set of the Mullards though cause I like how they felt and sounded.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Hello gang !!

I was wondering if anyone can tell me about the TADS i'm running in my 6100LM , are these a Russian tube , or Chinese tube , what is it about these tubes that i love so much , they just sound so much better than all the other brands i have tryed ?? 

not trying to jack this tread , but any info would be great !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Tubes, you're not hi-jacking the thread. This is what we do.

Okay, the scoop on TAD is that the tubes are designed in Germany and made in China. I need to tell you that some of the process of making tubes is a violation of the EPA. That is why tubes are made in countries that don't abide by the EPA. So, the bottom line is the tubes have some very good designs and then they are made to these specifications. They were smart to know that the black coating on the plates are a key to a sweet sounding tube.

The other aspect is the amp. Your amp, your plate voltage and the amount of bias you use all add up to a tone that you are happy with.

I'm glad that you have found a tube that works so well in your amp.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

the TADS work great in this chassis , the only other ones to sound even close were
a 6L6 EH , can't tell you any more than that , but they had a short life span in this amp,
they burned up real quick !! not sure why !


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just bought an amp with a B+ of 475. That's like an old Super Lead. I'm running a pair of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's, because they take 600V on the plate and are rated at 800V. They sound fantastic in that amp and I feel safe running them.

Those 6L6EH's may not have liked the B+ in your amp. I don't know what it is. In the course of owning the amp, what have you found out it to be as per setting your bias?


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

whats the story on this 6100 of mine , it came out with 5881's but i have seemed to like 
6L6 tubes instead , i tryed some 5881's from Sovtek , GT , Svetlana but did not care for them , Svetlana's were the worst in this amp IMO , i had to take them out i hated them that much , whats the difference 5881 v/s 6L6 ??


----------



## MartyStrat54

Technically...nothing. When an American tube has four numbers for a part, it is generally a military or industrial tube. Example, a 7025 is a commercial tube, but it is the same as a 12AX7. Now the 7025 basically were highly screened tubes noted for their extra quiet operation. These tubes were used for years by Fender in their Blackface amps. These tubes actually helped generate the famous "Fender Clean."

So the 5881 is a 6L6WGB. They are the same tube. Because of certain applications a shorter tube was required and the 5881 filled the need.

So by going from 5881's to 6L6's, you didn't "hurt" anything. The 6L6 family is a very old line of tubes. I'm sure you know that some 6L6's were made with metal tubes and did not use any glass. Most 6L6's are right around the same wattage rating. However, the 6L6GC is the second most powerful and the most produced. Finally, a 6550 is part of the 6L6 family and it is the most powerful.

Excluding the 6550, you can run any type of 6L6 in your amp as long as it is a 23 to 25 watt or higher tube (6L6GC is 30 watt). You can also run KT66's. This is just the British version of a 6L6. However, a KT66 has different tonal qualities and I have been thinking of giving them a try.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I just bought an amp with a B+ of 475. That's like an old Super Lead. I'm running a pair of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's, because they take 600V on the plate and are rated at 800V. They sound fantastic in that amp and I feel safe running them.
> 
> Those 6L6EH's may not have liked the B+ in your amp. I don't know what it is. In the course of owning the amp, what have you found out it to be as per setting your bias?



Hey Marty, you guys taught me how to bias, how do i check plate voltage, and will I fry myself?


----------



## wegman

racko7566 said:


> Hey Marty, you guys taught me how to bias, how do i check plate voltage, and will I fry myself?



Yes great question I am interested as well on the answer. That's what always throws me, how do you get the plate voltage.


----------



## solarburn

Guys I use the Weber Bias Rite so I don't have to get into the amps under side and probe pin 3. The way I shake I'd hit everything else but pin 3. My model has a toggle switch that takes PV as well as bias. A flip of the switch gets it done for me. Cost a little money but to me its worth it...

https://taweber.powweb.com/biasrite/br_page.htm


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## MartyStrat54

Well this is something that you can do. I will say that I have a custom SRS Bias Tool and Plate Voltage Tool. The "PVT" is nice in the fact that you remove one tube, install the PVT and then reinstall the tube. After warming the amp on Standby, you turn the amp on. The PVT is connected to a digital VOM and set to either AUTO mode or 600VDC. Instantly you get your plate voltage "under load." This is important, because the other way you test this safely is with the power tubes out. This is a no load reading and will be higher by say 15 to 25 volts.

Anyway, with your power tubes pulled and of course the chassis pulled, you take your meter and you go to Pin 3. Caution-The pins are numbered from the bottom side. When counting from the top, start on the right side of the index slot and count counter-clockwise. Put your Red probe into Pin 3 and "then" touch the chassis with the Black Probe. This is your plate voltage. On most Mashall's it should be around 450 or so. Remember this is DC voltage and is very stout. Use caution at all times. I don't advise trying to take plate voltage readings off the bottom of the socket. This requires special probes that most guys do not have. The difference between a load and no load reading is not going to factor in that much when figuring your bias off of plate voltage. When you have your tubes out, it's best to test all of the sockets and the readings should be very close. If not, you may have found a potential problem.

A general rule of thumb is that class AB amplifiers are usually operated at no more than 70% of the maximum plate dissipation of the tube. For example, the EL34 tube has a plate dissipation of 25W, so at 400V class AB operation, it should be biased no higher than (0.7 * 25/400) = 44mA. At 500V class AB operation, it should be biased no higher than (0.7 * 25/500) = 35mA.

Just a little note. If you do the no load test, you can always deduct 10 volts or so and that will get you a little closer to the "loaded" plate voltage.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

marty , what kinda numbers should i be using to set the bias on my 6100 w/ those 6L6GC 's black plates , if i remember right , i set it at 38 mA , plate voltage was about 470 -480( i think !!! LOL ) does that sound right ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's good Tubes. I just set my Twister with PV of 475 to 39mV (or mA). The owner of Twister said I could go hotter, but I like to keep it a notch below.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

thanks Marty !!! it sounds good with those numbers !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I got my 6CA7's in and I will be posting some TooB PorN very soon. Man that Triple O Getter looks sexy.

I finally got some killer tubes for a decent price. The 6CA7's were fetching high dollar. This guy had four pairs and all of his auctions were "Buy It Now." Can't beat that.

The Twister has Double O Getter Sylvania's and I'm going to leave them in there until I am certain the amp is going to hold bias. The two tubes I pulled out were way apart on the bias, but it was the tubes and not the bias voltage in the tube socket.

That's the benefit of having the right tube testing equipment. My SRS equipment gives the plate voltage with a load and this is beneficial. It also allows you to see the actual bias on the tube. When I pulled the tube and checked the bias voltage, it was rock solid and identical on both sockets. It was the EL34B's, they have a problem.

Anyway, I'll get the PorN up so Hot Tubes will have something to go to the bathroom with.

Later Guys.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah anytime Alan. I see lots of guys liking these and Wilder uses them in his builds. I thought they were pretty good sounding but I'd say I like the Mullard RI's more.



I've been meaning to ask - did you have any problems biasing the E34Ls? When I pulled my RFTs and put in the JJs, they were running at around 75mV. I got them down to around 42mV, which is where the RFTs were running, but I was all but out of adjustment room when I got there.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've been meaning to ask - did you have any problems biasing the E34Ls? When I pulled my RFTs and put in the JJs, they were running at around 75mV. I got them down to around 42mV, which is where the RFTs were running, but I was all but out of adjustment room when I got there.



Wow thats damn hot! I didn't have any issues getting them to bias up and no extreme range adjustments. You know whats funny is when I put the GT's in mine they were ice cold and I had to make and extreme adjustment to get them biased up. I didn't think much of it other than thats the first time I used so much adjustment range of the bias pots. Since they did bias I just shrugged my shoulders and went oh well. 

When I put my 6CA7's back in I had to move everything back to its usual adjustment range with the bias pots. All of my power tubes are within a certain bias pot range as far as adjustment goes. The GT's went way outside of that range.

This is interesting...When I get them back I will throw them in again and see where they are at just to make sure I'm remembering how they biased up right. I'll let you know what happens...curious about this.


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## RiverRatt

You should have them soon. I sent yours and Marty's in the mail today.

Marty, are these the Sylvania 6CA7s that you've been talking about? I'd like to try these, but I don't want to lose that midrange bark the EL34s have.

Nice Pair Sylvania FAT BOY 6CA7 / EL34 Tubes


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## MartyStrat54

Yes, that's the guy I bought mine from. $125 is a really good price for those. I paid $99 for one pair and they tested better than these. The difference? They didn't have "Sylvania" on the base. Of course, for $125, I got the Triple O Getters.


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## SpiritOfTheAge

sorry wrong forum!


----------



## thrawn86

What use is this to me:
_*"If you are looking for a certain (Gm) or (Ip) reading please let us know."*_
Is this refering to the test results? Does it make a lot of difference, or is it more for matching a quartet/duet to each other?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> What use is this to me:
> _*"If you are looking for a certain (Gm) or (Ip) reading please let us know."*_
> Is this refering to the test results? Does it make a lot of difference, or is it more for matching a quartet/duet to each other?



Yes, it is used to determine a matched set. Tubes are tested by a variety of ways. However, (Gm) is a measure of transconductance and (Ip) is plate current. Knowing these electrical properties allows the tubes to be matched.

Some tube sellers write this info on the end of the box, so you know you are getting a matched set of power tubes. Also, the seller may put a bias number down as well, say 40mA (mV). This lets you know what the ideal operation bias of the tube is.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, it is used to determine a matched set. Tubes are tested by a variety of ways. However, (Gm) is a measure of transconductance and (Ip) is plate current. Knowing these electrical properties allows the tubes to be matched.
> 
> Some tube sellers write this info on the end of the box, so you know you are getting a matched set of power tubes. Also, the seller may put a bias number down as well, say 40mA (mV). This lets you know what the ideal operation bias of the tube is.




Marty thanks for the cool info !


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## MartyStrat54

Not a problem. Glad to help.


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## MartyStrat54

As promised, Sylvania 6CA7 Fat Boy TooB PorN. The first pic's are the Triple O Getter tubes. These tested at 97 and 100. A really nice pair.











Here are the Double O's. These tested at 94 and 95.
















These are rock solid, the real deal. Functional artwork. I have a set of Double O 6CA7's in my Twister and these are 80/82 tubes and they sound like brand new tubes. 

I've read where a 6CA7 can be on it's last leg and as long as the heater is working the tube decays very slowly. That is why many people will get at least three times the service out of NOS tubes. People will pay top dollar for an xf2, even if it tests low, because the tubes can test low and still have over a year left in them. Another thing to consider about NOS power tubes. (Note the welded plates on both versions.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you have any NOS power tubes, please post some pic's as we all love Toob PorN.

Also, this is the place to get opinions on current production power tubes. If you have any questions, let us know.


----------



## solarburn

Thats a nice fat bottle porn there...


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## MartyStrat54

That's about as fat as I want 'em. Thank god they don't get any fatter than that.


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## RiverRatt

I posted this link over on the EL34M thread, but it deserves to be mentioned here. There's some great info on this thread from Myles Rose who used to work for Groove Tubes about current production tubes. I'm glad I didn't bid on those Groove Tubes GE 6CA7s now!

EL34 thoughts - The Gear Page


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I've been preaching most of that stuff already, although I'm pissed at The Tube Depot. They told me that the EH6CA7 was a copy of an NOS 6CA7. Now I see that it is nothing but an EL34 inside a big bottle. I was right on about failure rates and the fact that they burn the tubes in at very low plate voltages. There was some other stuff that was troubling, but it did not surprise me.

Bottom line and I said this before (I know, I know), but I feel safe running NOS power tubes. They cost more, but they last longer and are built better.


----------



## LuredMaul

ROFL, I just read all 12 pages of this thread and have been thinking...Hmmm maybe I need to try these EH6CA7's and Blam0....................... It's just an EL34!?!?!?!? WTF!!!!!!


hahahahaha


----------



## el zilcho

I'm pretty sure that the EH6CA7 is not just an EL34 in a big bottle. 

Look at a picture of one, the plate structure is entirely different.


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## solarburn

Well I have to say the 6CA7EH's are the best sounding EL34 I've tried to date. I like them better than my NOS EL34 RFT's. Doesn't mean I won't use others when I want though. It does mean I like them over most so far. I've tried them all in my DSL50 except the JJ EL34 or the EH EL34 reg bottle size. They haven't failed yet so durability is being tested as we speak hehe. Been just a few months.

Personally I let MY ears decide what sounds best. If a tube has a failure problem then its out regardless of how it sounds. Too bad marketing can be so deceiving at times. Tell it straight works for me, call it what it is.


----------



## solarburn

I guess the TubeStore is lying too then?

At last something to replace the hole left since the EI 6CA7 went out of stock. These tubes sound every bit as good as the old EI tubes and are probably my favorite tubes for Hiwatt guitar amplifiers. It’s like they were made for each other. These tubes are like EL34’s on steroids. They handle high voltage and current without problems. As mentioned, there is nothing like a Hiwatt head powered by 6CA7 tubes and driving a 4x12 cab loaded with Fane speakers. This is classic rock tone at its finest. It’s the sound of Pete Townsend and The Who. The 6CA7 has more headroom than an EL34 and by the time you get it really crunchy sounding your pants are flapping in the breeze. Just the right amount of compression for great thick rock tone. Biasing levels can be dialed in from warm to hot without causing significant tonal changes. The EH is well constructed and should not pose any noise problems. If using these tubes in more reasonable systems the EH 6CA7 is capable of some really nice clean tones thanks to that extra headroom. If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you. If you want something loud and proud, you want to put the EH 6CA7 in your amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

About the EH 6CA7, keep two things in mind. First, in the Gear Page thread, they are specifically talking about EL34s. The 6CA7s were mentioned as an aside, and the EH tube wasn't specifically mentioned. 
Second, these tubes have a good track record here with our members (thanks for the input, Joe!). I know that's a small sample, but this is what we're interested in. Real world application. I haven't read anything negative about the EH 6CA7 other than the fact that it sounds more like a 6L6 than an EL34.
Also, I don't believe that the online retailers' reviews are a good source of information. They are in the business of selling tubes. I've never read a review on a tube dealer's website or auction where they tell you that a tube sucks, don't buy it. They all sound like a cross between a Mullard XF2 and the Second Coming. 
Bottom line, based on their track record, I still would like to try the EH 6CA7. Sure, I may get a bad one, but if I buy from a reputable dealer, I feel reasonably secure in that they will make it right if I get a bad one. I want a CP tube to believe in.
With all that said, I still think NOS is the better value at this point in time. You can get a matched pair of NOS EL34 or 6CA7 tubes for around double the price of current production without even trying. We're only talking about $100 - $125 for a solid pair. I have preamp tubes that are going for more than that for a pair.
I know that there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy with their CP tubes, but for every positive review there's someone else who has had a bad experience. You just don't see that with the old stuff. Try finding a bad review of a Siemens/RFT EL34 or a Philips tube - there are plenty of these out there that are so close to a Mullard that there's no difference that are still in the $100 range. Even Tesla, Ei and the old Svetlana factory tubes that were made up into the '90s are already commanding a NOS price. 
Your power tubes are the foundation of your tone. You've shelled out probably at least in the neighborhood of $1,000 for your Marshall, and that's if you bought it used. You wouldn't buy a Ferrari and put Walmart tires and 87 octane in it. What other industry in the free world would you be willing to tolerate a 50 - 90% failure rate of their product? 

...where are my pills?


----------



## solarburn

Anytime my friend!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Joe, I've come to realize that in the world of current production tubes, there are a lot of things done under the table. If you are a big tube retailer, you do stuff like call JJ, JJ Tesla. Right? Hey, these tubes are made by JJ Tesla. No such fuckin' animal and there never was. Yet it goes on everyday at The Tube Store and The Tube Depot and almost every place that sells tubes on the Net. I've tried to get info from these people and they are smart. Every tube I have asked them about has a great five year reliability record.

I'm not that stupid. There's no sense in trying to get a straight answer to any of this. It's all a crap shoot. It's a crap shoot the minute the tube is finished and ready for testing. It all goes downhill from there.

I am no longer going to try to obtain information regarding tube reliability anymore. There's no point in trying to do it.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, I've come to realize that in the world of current production tubes, there are a lot of things done under the table. If you are a big tube retailer, you do stuff like call JJ, JJ Tesla. Right? Hey, these tubes are made by JJ Tesla. No such fuckin' animal and there never was. Yet it goes on everyday at The Tube Store and The Tube Depot and almost every place that sells tubes on the Net. I've tried to get info from these people and they are smart. Every tube I have asked them about has a great five year reliability record.
> 
> I'm not that stupid. There's no sense in trying to get a straight answer to any of this. It's all a crap shoot. It's a crap shoot the minute the tube is finished and ready for testing. It all goes downhill from there.
> 
> I am no longer going to try to obtain information regarding tube reliability anymore. There's no point in trying to do it.



Reading through that thread there was a reference to JJ Tesla again and we know the story behind the 2. 

All points above taken. It really boils down to us using these tubes and reporting what happens as objectively as we can putting a lid on fanboy-ism quick. 

These tubes really provide certain flavors/textures of tone that we hear, feel and we all have our preferences. When I recommend a tube I like I'm not pushing it on others. I get excited when I find tubes I like that have a positive impact tone and reliability wise on my amp. I like to share that with others but there are so many variables that come into play with that recommendation. Tube rollers know what I mean and factor those things in and know for sure there is no absolute one brand/tube to be using. If there was we would all be using it...

Gigging and running them tubes hard and play'n at home are 2 different environments that effect them differently. I'm not gigging right now so you would have to factor that in regarding what type of environment my tubes are played in. Are they at volume constantly or occasionally...

We're getting through the hype and fanfare here when we buy the tubes and put them in our amps. Let me know what you think after actually play'n them. Its likely I've already tried them hehe.


----------



## thrawn86

Thought I'd post here since the info is pertinent to power tubes.

Marty, you have that link to ARS floating around. I called about EL84's from Ei, and his response was 'they haven't made anything in a long time (well I knew that) and all we have are _JJ Tesla's_.' So first off, if anyone checks their site, remain cautiously optimistic until you call, because ALL the tubes in their inventory indicate that they are IN STK-CALL. Secondly, it seems that they may also have fallen victim to the calling of JJ's the JJ/Tesla. To me, it's like when someone in CA calls Interstate 5 by the name 'Highway 5'....it's not correct, but people get used to using it.

Just thought I'd share that little info I got.....looks like JJ's or maybe some Mullard RI's for me!


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Thought I'd post here since the info is pertinent to power tubes.
> 
> Marty, you have that link to ARS floating around. I called about EL84's from Ei, and his response was 'they haven't made anything in a long time (well I knew that) and all we have are _JJ Tesla's_.' So first off, if anyone checks their site, remain cautiously optimistic until you call, because ALL the tubes in their inventory indicate that they are IN STK-CALL. Secondly, it seems that they may also have fallen victim to the calling of JJ's the JJ/Tesla. To me, it's like when someone in CA calls Interstate 5 by the name 'Highway 5'....it's not correct, but people get used to using it.
> 
> Just thought I'd share that little info I got.....looks like JJ's or maybe some Mullard RI's for me!



http://www.tubemonger.com/MPs_1966_70_NOS_NIB_RFT_E_German_EL84_WELDED_PL_p/648.htm

These are smoky, warm, fat and crunch up nicely. I have a pair and love em' in my NT. These flat kill my JJ EL84's. They are dull & stiff compared to the RFT's. I'd love to put them in a Marshall circuit...


----------



## thrawn86

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS NIB 1966-1970 Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.
> 
> These are smoky, warm, fat and crunch up nicely. I have a pair and love em' in my NT. These flat kill my JJ EL84's. They are dull & stiff compared to the RFT's. I'd love to put them in a Marshall circuit...



Unfortunately, I'll need a quad. Will they do that for you at tubemonger...provided they have enough?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thrawn_ARS goes a step further and they have their JJ tubes custom relabeled as Tesla-JJ. Go figure.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Unfortunately, I'll need a quad. Will they do that for you at tubemonger...provided they have enough?



Shoot man it looks like they only offer these in matched pairs. I should have paid more attention cause I knew what amp you have. Sorry about that thrawn.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, but they could sell you "two" matched pairs. Same as a quad. $140 ain't bad. Watch those thin bases. Caarack!.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I am hesitant to discuss this here. I feel I have more leeway in the Preamp Tube thread. I want to pass on some info to you that I think will be sort of a jaw dropper, because it was for me. 

As you know, I bought an F3 Twister. I couldn't wait to fix it all up with NOS. It came with Chinese power tubes and three JJ's. I thought to myself, "Out with the junk, in with the NOS." I did the amp up right. Two Sylvania Double O 6CA7's. A Ribbed Plate Telefunken in V1. A Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and a High Gain Sylvania Gray Plate in the PI. A to die for NOS tube set up. I biased it up right in the sweet spot and I went to play my Explorer and I was shocked by the sound. It wasn't that good. I put the Explorer in the "Low" input instead of the "High," same thing. I tried my Strat, just didn't cut it. I'm pulling my hair out. 

So...I contact the owner of Twister. He's a real nice guy and of course he's a lot like our very own Jon Wilder. I tell him the scenario and this was his response to me.



> Hello Marty,
> 
> I read your email about the tubes you are running in the F3.
> 
> In any case, I'm pretty sure that your amp probably sounds a little mushy, and undefined, with a lack of bite.
> 
> The reason I say this is because of the Tubes you are using.
> 
> All those vintage tubes you have in there, are wonderfull for old fenders, but this amp was designed around modern tubes, that have a harsher quality to them, and when used in this amp, will give you the Bite you are missing.
> 
> Power tubes. Use some Ruby, or Shuguang EL34Bs Biased to whatever sounds best between 33, and 42mA. I like em set usually around 36 mA, but you may have a different prefference.
> 
> DO NOT use Winged C power tubes in this amp. They're fine tubes, they just sound like crap in this amp. Stick with the Chinese power tubes.
> 
> Preamp tubes. Once again, this amp was dialed in to use modern production tubes. Try some of the new High gain Sovteks, TungSol reissues, or Chinese tubes will help give you that Van Halen sound you're looking for. Even the JJECC83 will work ok, but they're a little on the too smooth/dark side for my tastes. Absolutely stay away from the JJ803s. It may be a good tube for some applications, but not the F3.
> 
> You didn't say what kinds of speakers you were using, or what kind of cab, but the F3 likes Celestion 75's. Some folks like V30's as well. Not my favorite, but they record well.
> 
> If you can't get it to sound the way you like, let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Jade



What do you think about that? Especially in light of this Gear Page thread. I need to use crappy tubes that may not survive. The loaded plate voltage is 475. So I need to ask Wilder if an amp manufacturer can actually tweak the circuits so that a harsh EL34 sounds "sweet" in a certain amp that was made to work with these kind of tubes. That don't hang well in Marty's house, if ya know what I mean. 

What if you took NOS tubes and put them in your Marshall and they made the amp dull and lifeless? Would you be happy about it? Maybe I'll try what he said. I have plenty of CP power tubes and loads of CP preamp tubes. You put in shitty tubes and the amp will sound sweet. It may sound sweet for two months, but it will sound sweet.

Just thought that I would pass this on as I have never been told this sort of advice before. I guess you live and learn. The bottom line is if I can't get it to sound right, I will put cheapo tubes in it and see what I can get for it in the KC market.

Thoughts...comments???


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I am hesitant to discuss this here. I feel I have more leeway in the Preamp Tube thread. I want to pass on some info to you that I think will be sort of a jaw dropper, because it was for me.
> 
> As you know, I bought an F3 Twister. I couldn't wait to fix it all up with NOS. It came with Chinese power tubes and three JJ's. I thought to myself, "Out with the junk, in with the NOS." I did the amp up right. Two Sylvania Double O 6CA7's. A Ribbed Plate Telefunken in V1. A Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and a High Gain Sylvania Gray Plate in the PI. A to die for NOS tube set up. I biased it up right in the sweet spot and I went to play my Explorer and I was shocked by the sound. It wasn't that good. I put the Explorer in the "Low" input instead of the "High," same thing. I tried my Strat, just didn't cut it. I'm pulling my hair out.
> 
> So...I contact the owner of Twister. He's a real nice guy and of course he's a lot like our very own Jon Wilder. I tell him the scenario and this was his response to me.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about that? Especially in light of this Gear Page thread. I need to use crappy tubes that may not survive. The loaded plate voltage is 475. So I need to ask Wilder if an amp manufacturer can actually tweak the circuits so that a harsh EL34 sounds "sweet" in a certain amp that was made to work with these kind of tubes. That don't hang well in Marty's house, if ya know what I mean.
> 
> What if you took NOS tubes and put them in your Marshall and they made the amp dull and lifeless? Would you be happy about it? Maybe I'll try what he said. I have plenty of CP power tubes and loads of CP preamp tubes. You put in shitty tubes and the amp will sound sweet. It may sound sweet for two months, but it will sound sweet.
> 
> Just thought that I would pass this on as I have never been told this sort of advice before. I guess you live and learn. The bottom line is if I can't get it to sound right, I will put cheapo tubes in it and see what I can get for it in the KC market.
> 
> Thoughts...comments???



Put the cp tubes in and see if it pans out. Then go from there. Jon can answer the "is the amp designed around cp tubes" question. Wow unexpected development...got to go to work now.


----------



## RiverRatt

It sounds like a load of BS to me. An amp that sounds good with shitty tubes should only sound better with good tubes. I can understand that if the amp is voiced dark, then a preamp tube that's also dark maybe wouldn't be the best choice. It sounds like he's saying that he voiced the amp weird to compensate for the quirks of a handful of CP tubes. What happens if the tubes he mentions go out of production tomorrow? It could happen. Is the entire line of amps rendered obsolete?

+1 on Wilder. I'd like to hear his thoughts as well. If anyone here knows how to dial in an amp and has the glass to back it up, it's you. 

Also +1 on your last option. Don't hang on to an amp you don't like thinking that you can change it into what you want. It doesn't work with amps or women. Sell it and put the money toward a Metro or a Ceriatone 1987 or 1959 or one of Wilder's builds that will really sound like an old Marshall. He sounds like the kind of guy you can tell what you want and he's capable of doing it right.


----------



## thrawn86

Some vehicles run on premium fuel, and some don't. With some vehicles you still get the same mileage out of them no matter what you put in, due to the design. I would think that NOS valves for ANY application would be an improvement, but apparently not! 

Wow. I am actually suprised by this Marty. Looking forward to see how this one pans out.



RiverRatt said:


> Also +1 on your last option. Don't hang on to an amp you don't like thinking that you can change it into what you want. It doesn't work with amps or women. Sell it and put the money toward a Metro or a Ceriatone 1987 or 1959 or one of Wilder's builds that will really sound like an old Marshall. He sounds like the kind of guy you can tell what you want and he's capable of doing it right.



+1


----------



## Wilder Amplification

In regards to the EH 6CA7 - 

As most of you know I have solarburnDSL50's amp here for mods which came in with a pair of EH 6CA7s. In looking at the internal structure I've discovered that these aren't even an EL34. As was mentioned above, the plate structure is completely different and on top of this, instead of a suppressor grid they have beam forming plates! Which makes these a beam power pentode and not a standard power pentode like an EL34 is.

As far as if they're an actual "reproduction" of a NOS 6CA7, not in the least. According to the RCA Tube Manual, the 6CA7 was a standard pentode just like an EL34. The EH6CA7 I honestly think is nothing more than a 6L6 made to work in an EL34 amp. I say 6L6 due to it having the beam forming plates. A beam pentode will sound drastically different than a standard pentode.

Does this make it a bad valve? Not at all. It's had lots of good reviews here on these boards so if it sounds good why stop using it? But this is merely to show you that nowadays the valve numbers don't mean jack shit as well as half the claims made by the people who make and sell 'em. It's all "smoke & mirrors" just to get you to buy buy buy (just like the "balanced phase inverter" valves) and the only way to get the right valves is to roll 'em through your amp and let your ears decide.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I am hesitant to discuss this here. I feel I have more leeway in the Preamp Tube thread. I want to pass on some info to you that I think will be sort of a jaw dropper, because it was for me.
> 
> As you know, I bought an F3 Twister. I couldn't wait to fix it all up with NOS. It came with Chinese power tubes and three JJ's. I thought to myself, "Out with the junk, in with the NOS." I did the amp up right. Two Sylvania Double O 6CA7's. A Ribbed Plate Telefunken in V1. A Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and a High Gain Sylvania Gray Plate in the PI. A to die for NOS tube set up. I biased it up right in the sweet spot and I went to play my Explorer and I was shocked by the sound. It wasn't that good. I put the Explorer in the "Low" input instead of the "High," same thing. I tried my Strat, just didn't cut it. I'm pulling my hair out.
> 
> So...I contact the owner of Twister. He's a real nice guy and of course he's a lot like our very own Jon Wilder. I tell him the scenario and this was his response to me.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you think about that? Especially in light of this Gear Page thread. I need to use crappy tubes that may not survive. The loaded plate voltage is 475. So I need to ask Wilder if an amp manufacturer can actually tweak the circuits so that a harsh EL34 sounds "sweet" in a certain amp that was made to work with these kind of tubes. That don't hang well in Marty's house, if ya know what I mean.
> 
> What if you took NOS tubes and put them in your Marshall and they made the amp dull and lifeless? Would you be happy about it? Maybe I'll try what he said. I have plenty of CP power tubes and loads of CP preamp tubes. You put in shitty tubes and the amp will sound sweet. It may sound sweet for two months, but it will sound sweet.
> 
> Just thought that I would pass this on as I have never been told this sort of advice before. I guess you live and learn. The bottom line is if I can't get it to sound right, I will put cheapo tubes in it and see what I can get for it in the KC market.
> 
> Thoughts...comments???



I find NOS tubes to be brighter and smoother than CP tubes.

How could your amp sound mushy with NOS tubes? I mean Marty your the Master of rolling tubes,,, you not found a good combination of tubes yet?

Try the RFT's or Mullard EL34's?? I cant imagine it sounding mushy with a telefunken in V1??


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Joe is sending me the mother load of Chinese tubes. I'm going to try them. If the amp sounds good, then I'll shit a five pound gold turd and split it with you guys. 

To answer your question, yes I am a master roller. However, I put top of the line tubes in the amp and it sounds like a solid state. Putting other top of the line tubes in it isn't going to change a thing. You heard the answer from the amp designer...use cheap Chinese tubes. That will give me the Van Halen sound.

Something tells me I'll have another amp for sale. I got really up for this deal and now it's like expired milk...nasty and sour.

The other thing is I am spoiled on multi-channel amps. I mean I have played them for a long time. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a single channel? I mean I know the clean channel isn't going to be that clean, but I sure as hell demand some crunch and dynamics with a big mess of tone. To me, that is the example of a good single channel amp. It's gotta have some soul. To me, the tubes are the soul. If you run the best, the soul should be the best. Not with this amp.

And like I said. Not only is it designed with Chinese tubes in mind, it is designed around the G12-75's. It sucks wind with other speakers. 

What blows my mind is none of this is mentioned on the Twister Net page.

Attention: The sound of the F3 relies on Chinese power and preamp tubes. Also, G12-75 Celestion's are the only recommended speaker. If I had seen that I would have laughed and gone elsewhere.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe is sending me the mother load of Chinese tubes. I'm going to try them. If the amp sounds good, then I'll shit a five pound gold turd and split it with you guys.
> 
> To answer your question, yes I am a master roller. However, I put top of the line tubes in the amp and it sounds like a solid state. Putting other top of the line tubes in it isn't going to change a thing. You heard the answer from the amp designer...use cheap Chinese tubes. That will give me the Van Halen sound.
> 
> Something tells me I'll have another amp for sale. I got really up for this deal and now it's like expired milk...nasty and sour.
> 
> The other thing is I am spoiled on multi-channel amps. I mean I have played them for a long time. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a single channel? I mean I know the clean channel isn't going to be that clean, but I sure as hell demand some crunch and dynamics with a big mess of tone. To me, that is the example of a good single channel amp. It's gotta have some soul. To me, the tubes are the soul. If you run the best, the soul should be the best. Not with this amp.
> 
> And like I said. Not only is it designed with Chinese tubes in mind, it is designed around the G12-75's. It sucks wind with other speakers.
> 
> What blows my mind is none of this is mentioned on the Twister Net page.
> 
> Attention: The sound of the F3 relies on Chinese power and preamp tubes. Also, G12-75 Celestion's are the only recommended speaker. If I had seen that I would have laughed and gone elsewhere.



This puts a whole new meaning to "polishing turds".


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know Jon, after this is all over, I might be real good at polishing turds without them getting all squishy on me. Never in my life have I been told that specific brands of power tubes needed to be in an amp to make it sound right. 

Then to say that about the speakers as well. In other words the amp is EQ'd off of Chinese tubes and G12-75 Celestions. Slap me in the face with a big fish.

Marshall amps must be used strictly with Winged =C= EL34's. Any other tube will cause a flat, dull solid state sound. Marshall is also recommending that V-30's be used in the speaker cabinets. Marshall cannot be held responsible for the tone of the amp with any other type/brand of speakers.:eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I know this isn't a Marshall, but it sits beside one. I was messing with the tubes in my Blackheart 5 watt head this evening (1-12AX7, 1-EL84). I was trying some different pre's and just happened to try a hot Ei ECC83. It sounded great! With a little bit of pedal boost it has some nice crunch to it. I'm using a GE 6BQ5 in it right now, but I believe it has room for improvement. What are some good EL84s to try? I'm looking for smoking blues and classic rock tones.

I've been reading about the Ei and RFT offerings above. Any others?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I know this isn't a Marshall, but it sits beside one. I was messing with the tubes in my Blackheart 5 watt head this evening (1-12AX7, 1-EL84). I was trying some different pre's and just happened to try a hot Ei ECC83. It sounded great! With a little bit of pedal boost it has some nice crunch to it. I'm using a GE 6BQ5 in it right now, but I believe it has room for improvement. What are some good EL84s to try? I'm looking for smoking blues and classic rock tones.
> 
> I've been reading about the Ei and RFT offerings above. Any others?



You know I'm going to say the RFT. I've tried Sovtec(yuck), JJ, and a set of Russian 1967 84's.

The JJ's in my NT were just ok. Usually their EL84's get high praise but again in the NT they didn't impress. The Sovtecs were just stiff and sterile. Its later break up sucked the life out of the amp. The Russian's NOS were great. Lots of clean headroom yet when they do break up its a warm overdrive. The RFT's are THE smok'n blues rock EL84. Early break up with warm, fat overdrive. Just a pleasure to hear and feel. The NT is a bit stiff and bright as is and these tubes helped smooth it out. They crunch up nicely.


----------



## RiverRatt

Somehow I knew you'd say that. 

Has anybody used the Mullard or Philips varieties? There are always a handful of Matsushitas and BELs popping up, and the single Mullards are more reasonable than preamp tubes. The European stuff I've always assumed was mostly made by RFT no matter who is on the label. If I can find a nice price on an RFT I'll probably go ahead and get it since I know it'll be good. I'd still like to try an Ei and maybe a Matsushita.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Somehow I knew you'd say that.
> 
> Has anybody used the Mullard or Philips varieties? There are always a handful of Matsushitas and BELs popping up, and the single Mullards are more reasonable than preamp tubes. The European stuff I've always assumed was mostly made by RFT no matter who is on the label. If I can find a nice price on an RFT I'll probably go ahead and get it since I know it'll be good. I'd still like to try an Ei and maybe a Matsushita.



The RFT and the Russian EL84's are the only NOS 84's I've tried. Not even sure what else is out there with these...

I got the Russian pair from Marty. They were a nice surprise in tone. He's all out now though I think...


----------



## core

Been trying to gather as much info as I can but I'm wondering specific to the JCM900 4100 series what would the differences be between an EL34 model and a 6L6GC (5881) model?

Right now I have the 6L6 model but I am always curious.

Just looking purely at sound and performance I guess is there a big difference? BTW I play a range from Zeppelin/Who to Motorhead to Alice In Chains for where I'm at as a tonal reference. Clean/dirty clean, gritty, to high gain overdrive so that's why this amp appeals to me in one.

Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well yes there is quite a difference between an EL34 amp and a 6L6. Sometimes I think it gets blown out of proportion. And I would say that if you are wanting to know the difference first hand, don't go modding your amp, just find another one that has EL34's or find a friend who has one. The brand of power tube plays a big part as well. I'm not real familiar with the 6L6's that you are running. I'm familiar with the brand. Their EL34's are not one of the better one's out there. They are a harsh sounding tube. The thing about a tube amp is that there are all of these things you can do to make it sound different and it can cost a lot of money dialing in your sound. So that's why I say try an EL34 amp. If you think it's better, sell yours and buy and EL34 model.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

MartyStrat54 said:


> The thing about a tube amp is that there are all of these things you can do to make it sound different and it can cost a lot of money dialing in your sound.



Cheap tone ain't good & good tone ain't cheap.


----------



## solarburn

Wilder Amplification said:


> Cheap tone ain't good & good tone ain't cheap.



That's what SHE said!


----------



## Wilder Amplification

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That's what SHE said!



Dude you keep rollin' chicks to find the one with the right "tone" and "tightness" and you're not gonna be able to afford your amp to be shipped back.


----------



## solarburn

Wilder Amplification said:


> Dude you keep rollin' chicks to find the one with the right "tone" and "tightness" and you're not gonna be able to afford your amp to be shipped back.


----------



## RiverRatt

Was there some kind of glitch last night with the forums? There's about half a page of posts missing from several threads. I hope that's the case and someone isn't going around turning this into the condensed version. I like my forums unabridged.

Short summary - Guy who had Matsushita EL34s on ebay that didn't sell relists and raises price $15......Marty can't find Raytheon black plates at a decent price.....I bought an Amperex bugle boy EL84.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Was there some kind of glitch last night with the forums? There's about half a page of posts missing from several threads. I hope that's the case and someone isn't going around turning this into the condensed version. I like my forums unabridged.
> 
> Short summary - Guy who had Matsushita EL34s on ebay that didn't sell relists and raises price $15......Marty can't find Raytheon black plates at a decent price.....I bought an Amperex bugle boy EL84.



Yeah they did some maintenance and it was quirky as hell afterwards...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah they did some maintenance and it was quirky as hell afterwards...



Well if anyone knows "quirky" it's you Joe.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got my first Philips EL84 today. If it sounds as good as it looks, it should be great! Anyone ever seen an asterisk in a Factory code? 









Why is it that tubes always seem to come on days when I can't get out of the office?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you just buy a single? It's a 60's tube with the BB logo.

The * means it will say, "Made In Holland" on the tube, but it was actually made in Saratov, Russia.



Now that you have these amps that have just one EL84, I wonder what you would think about the 1967 Russian EL84's that I have. These are the tubes that Joe picked over several others, including some Sylvania Black Plates.

I should have sent you one when I sent you some tubes to try out. I would like to know if it would "outdo" the Amperex.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you just buy a single? It's a 60's tube with the BB logo.
> 
> The * means it will say, "Made In Holland" on the tube, but it was actually made in Saratov, Russia.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that you have these amps that have just one EL84, I wonder what you would think about the 1967 Russian EL84's that I have. These are the tubes that Joe picked over several others, including some Sylvania Black Plates.
> 
> I should have sent you one when I sent you some tubes to try out. I would like to know if it would "outdo" the Amperex.



I can always send him one of mine if Alan wants to sample it. If you are out that is.

So did you get to play the Twister with the CP tubes in it yet?


----------



## RiverRatt

I vaguely remember you guys discussing those Russian tubes months ago. I do have another amp that needs a single EL84. Are they very expensive? 

That Amperex is sweet. It was a great find for $22. I love catching those tubes that sail through eBay under the radar.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Diana, my TW Rocket Clone has 70s Saratov El84s and they are incredible, much stronger, sweeter tone than the Russian Mullard RIs that were in there when I first got her. To my ears (what did you say?), The RIs were harsh and brittle. However, If anyone wants to try them, let me know...I have the matched quad.
Serge


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I vaguely remember you guys discussing those Russian tubes months ago. I do have another amp that needs a single EL84. Are they very expensive?
> 
> That Amperex is sweet. It was a great find for $22. I love catching those tubes that sail through eBay under the radar.



I'll try to get around and send you one. I would like to know how it stacks up against that Amperex.


----------



## solarburn

If I get another pair of the RFT's I will have one to send to Alan to demo. I want to see how it compares to anything he's tried...plus it breaks up so nicely ya just got to hear it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, as you probably know, I yacked on the phone with Jon until 3:35 AM. I had EBAY auctions that ended last night, so I had packages to ship out. Jon determined that my bias tester basically does what a Marshall DSL/TSL does and that is it puts a one ohm resistor in series with the bias current. This means that you have to add the screen current as well. We figured that the amp could go as high as 48mV. However, I still have a matter of the power tubes being off. I am going to try a few things and I will let you know what I find out.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, as you probably know, I yacked on the phone with Jon until 3:35 AM. I had EBAY auctions that ended last night, so I had packages to ship out. Jon determined that my bias tester basically does what a Marshall DSL/TSL does and that is it puts a one ohm resister in series with the bias current. This means that you have to add the screen current as well. We figured that the amp could go as high as 48mV. However, I still have a matter of the power tubes being off. I am going to try a few things and I will let you know what I find out.



Gotcha.

On another note one of those 6CA7EH's has started to run away and drift quite a bit. Jon told me it ran while giving it a final bias. He switched the tube from socket to socket to make sure it wasn't the amp and the problem went with the tube. 

I checked my receipt and I'm 14 days past the 3 month warranty. Figures...

I'm still going to let the Tube Store know about the tube though. You guys who got these tubes keep and eye on them and check bias. They sound great but a little over 3 months isn't very good especially when I haven't pushed them that hard and only occasionally since I'm not gigging.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the tube offers, guys. I'm always open to auditioning new glass. I almost hate to use the new Amperex - it's like a museum piece, and it sounds unbelievable. I need an 18 watt clone - I think that's going to be my 2010 project.

Marty, IIRC I saw a website the other day that had the instructions to build a bias tester that didn't use the 1-watt resistor method. I'll see if I can find it again.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> On another note one of those 6CA7EH's has started to run away and drift quite a bit. Jon told me it ran while giving it a final bias. He switched the tube from socket to socket to make sure it wasn't the amp and the problem went with the tube.
> 
> I checked my receipt and I'm 14 days past the 3 month warranty. Figures...
> 
> I'm still going to let the Tube Store know about the tube though. You guys who got these tubes keep and eye on them and check bias. They sound great but a little over 3 months isn't very good especially when I haven't pushed them that hard and only occasionally since I'm not gigging.



I wonder if they'd warranty it anyway. It's not like it's 2 months past the warranty...we're only talking a matter of days. Some valve dealers are good about that.


----------



## solarburn

Wilder Amplification said:


> I wonder if they'd warranty it anyway. It's not like it's 2 months past the warranty...we're only talking a matter of days. Some valve dealers are good about that.



I emailed them about it and am waiting to hear their response...


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright gurus, check out this bias tester. Would it have the screen current problem? 

Tube Amplifiers and building supplies for the do it yourself type. We specialize in vintage circuits.


----------



## solarburn

The Tube Store is taking care of the bad tube. They have this system they call perfect pair numbers which each tube comes with a number on it. I emailed it to them and they already are sending a replacement. Just got the tracking number.

Pretty dang cool! CS is consistently great there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I know. They couldn't meet my expectations on a tube return, so they sent a pretty female rep to my house and she licked my tube and wouldn't you know it, she blew it and that had to be replaced as well.


----------



## solarburn

Oh my...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tell me about it. I swelled from a miniature 5 Pin all the way to a KT100! I was one big tube...dude.


----------



## racko7566

Hey Solar, I haven't had any probs yet with my 6ca7eh's. But i have been hearing some wierd noises that I think is a pre ready to go. But I have noticed that when checking bias, that the one side goes up and down a bit while the other side stays the same. Up and down from around 86.6 to 87.9 and back. should I be worried?


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Hey Solar, I haven't had any probs yet with my 6ca7eh's. But i have been hearing some wierd noises that I think is a pre ready to go. But I have noticed that when checking bias, that the one side goes up and down a bit while the other side stays the same. Up and down from around 86.6 to 87.9 and back. should I be worried?



I wouldn't worry about that. That's not that much if that is all the farther its drifting. Mine drifted like from 40ish to 60ish if I remember Jon right. It was a big number diff. Just check them a little more often to see. I'm getting a replacement so I'm going to keep the 6CA7's in and continue demoing.

Remember I have all kinds of power tubes to go to if these turn out to be unreliable. I want to watch them carefully though cause I don't want them taking out shit if I can help it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, now that your DSL is in the $$$ range. You don't need it sucking a tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I got that Saratov in the mail today. That is one bad-ass tube! I played with the Amperex in the Blackheart head for awhile and then put the Russian tube in. With all the settings the same, it was like hitting the amp with a 10db clean boost. To get the same jangly Vox sound I had with the Amperex, I had to back the volume off a couple of notches. Both tubes are very musical and do that compressed melt-your-face EL84 tone well when cranked, but the Russian tube seems to retain a little more clarity and note separation. It's going to stay in the Blackheart and I moved the Amperex over to the Valve Jr.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I got that Saratov in the mail today. That is one bad-ass tube! I played with the Amperex in the Blackheart head for awhile and then put the Russian tube in. With all the settings the same, it was like hitting the amp with a 10db clean boost. To get the same jangly Vox sound I had with the Amperex, I had to back the volume off a couple of notches. Both tubes are very musical and do that compressed melt-your-face EL84 tone well when cranked, but the Russian tube seems to retain a little more clarity and note separation. It's going to stay in the Blackheart and I moved the Amperex over to the Valve Jr.



I dig that tube as well but I'm tell'n ya the RFT is even better IMA. I do like that Russian tube though. It killed the Sovtec the NT came with and the JJ's. It was a big difference in clean tones and overdrive. The RFT walks away in the early break up to overdrive department.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was bidding on an RFT but it got away from me. That's one good thing about these low-watt Class A amps - it doesn't cost a fortune in tubes to try different ones. That batch of Realistic/Matsushita 12AX7s that I sent you one of, I had one that was noisy as hell in the Marshall, but it sounds great in the little amps. I'm running all Amperex in the Valve Jr. now. That's something I couldn't do in the Marshall! An rx3 EL84 and one of Marty's Eico Amperex ECC83s for a preamp tube. It sounds like a Fender Champ on steroids.


----------



## core

So I learned a few things today. Draining caps is not all that hard and after reading "Complete Guide to Guitar and Amp Maintenance" the blue glow my 6L6GC's are giving off in the 6100 means that they are going bad. What I suspected all along. My tech said they were fine and they do play ok but according to the book it's just a matter of time. I thought it looks kinda cool and wondered why my other amps didn't glow blue. Seems it means it's leaking gas. So I think I'll try out either those TAD 6l6's or the Winged C tubes.

Did some cleaning on the EL34 900 and it's REAL clean, I mean it was well taken care of even though the original owner said he gigged with it a lot since new in 92. I found out the power tubes are Sovtek so I'm sure it could do better. I put the RCA 7025 in V1 the Tele in V2 and the Raytheon in V3 and it seems pretty good but I'm wondering about which power tubes might work best. Mullard reissues, Winged C, Tesla? Still sifting through info but I may end up settling on Winged C.

After looking around some I ran across some RFT el34's that look pretty nice and the Tungsol's had a great review. What do you guys think of those?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I find it hard to believe that four 6L6's would all have a gas issue. The odds of that happening are high. Some brands put off a glow. I could see where one tube became gassy, but not all four. I'd check into that closer before trashing your tubes.

Just for fun, try your Telefunken in V1 and the 7025 in V2. You might like the tone you get with that combination.

The TAD 6L6's are supposed to be pretty nice. There are several guys who really talk them up.


----------



## core

Hey Marty, that would make sense so I had another look and upon further inspection the two outside tubes have the blue glow pretty prominent and it looks as if it's creeping up the inside of the glass around the middle. One of the two inside tubes has no blue tint at all and appears normal and the other has just the slightest blue tint in one spot. It's barely visible. There is a constant intermittent crackle followed by slight static noise.


----------



## RiverRatt

You won't go wrong with those RFT EL34s in your 900. I bought a pair from Marty back last fall for my DSL50 and they sound really good. They are well balanced with punchy lows and mids and smooth highs. The =C='s and GTEL34Ms are decent tubes but if you can afford the RFTs go with them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a web page for the brave. The page is in Japanese but the captions under the photos are in English. It has a ton of info about Japanese EL34s.

Audio EU Pentode

Here's the Babelfish translated page. 

"About EL34/6CA7 there is no famous sphere even at today, probably will be. Loyal Isamu Morikawa MJ magazine July of 82 has explained the model of EL34 with the edition, but, here arranging the sphere which I procure accidentally, you will explain the model whose Matsushita make is a little detailed."


----------



## lord_guitarula

Hey, I've got a quick question .. I was thinking about using my 6100 with a rack poweramp. The thing is, i wouldn't connect any speakers to the 6100 since I don't need the power section of it. 

Now I know that you're not supposed to run a tube power amp without a load connected. So what if I pulled all the power tubes out, would that help? If yes, do I need to rebias the amp when I do put them back in?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Pulling the power tubes will do the trick. You won't have to connect a load, as no signal will reach the output tranny.

If you marked the order of the power tubes, when you put them back the tamp should still be in bias for those exact tubes in the exact order.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Hey Marty, that would make sense so I had another look and upon further inspection the two outside tubes have the blue glow pretty prominent and it looks as if it's creeping up the inside of the glass around the middle. One of the two inside tubes has no blue tint at all and appears normal and the other has just the slightest blue tint in one spot. It's barely visible. There is a constant intermittent crackle followed by slight static noise.



Okay, what are these tubes? Are they old NOS or a recent set? I've seen some older tubes with a soft vacuum glow like hell because of gas in the tube. The getter is what keeps the gas in check, but if there is a lot of gas it will wear the getter out and the gas will cause noises to come from the tube. I have an amp with NOS 8417's and they have a wild blue orange glow to them, but that's the way they are made.

If the tubes are old, then I would recommend that they be replaced. Since I can't actually look at them operating, I just have to assume that a couple are bad and the other two are getting ready to go. I still would like to know what brand they are.


----------



## core

They are Electro Harmonix. I'll try to take a pic later on and see if it shows up for you.


----------



## lord_guitarula

MartyStrat54 said:


> Pulling the power tubes will do the trick. You won't have to connect a load, as no signal will reach the output tranny.
> 
> If you marked the order of the power tubes, when you put them back the tamp should still be in bias for those exact tubes in the exact order.



Thanks a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> They are Electro Harmonix. I'll try to take a pic later on and see if it shows up for you.



Well, at least I know they aren't NOS. When they matched the tubes, they could have been a "soft" set. This means the vacuum isn't as strong as it should be. The tube will break up faster, but they also die faster. That's one of the things that the tube makes don't tell you. I am against selling tubes under the soft, medium and hard characteristic. If you don't mind buying tubes every 6 months, then buy a soft tube. It sounds like that is what the case is here. You got a set of soft tubes and they are all gassy.


----------



## core

Yep! I think I'm getting it now. So when testing tubes it's about how well the vacuum is right? Except I'm not sure what the medium and hard characteristic is.

What tolerance should they be to be a good match? I hear that the numbers don't have to be an exact match but within a couple numbers of each other correct? Also if they do list what the tubes test at what would be a good strong test number for NOS?

Anyway thanks for answering all my questions! It's a learning curve but I'm getting there.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

core said:


> Yep! I think I'm getting it now. So when testing tubes it's about how well the vacuum is right? Except I'm not sure what the medium and hard characteristic is.
> 
> What tolerance should they be to be a good match? I hear that the numbers don't have to be an exact match but within a couple numbers of each other correct? Also if they do list what the tubes test at what would be a good strong test number for NOS?
> 
> Anyway thanks for answering all my questions! It's a learning curve but I'm getting there.



Not just how well the vacuum is. They test them for transconductance (Tc) and idle plate current (Ip) as well.

Transconductance is the spec that states how much of a current flow increase occurs for a given signal voltage increase on its control grid.

When they match them, they want the Tc and Ip to be close to each other. For Ip, they want valves that idle within 2-3mA of each other.


----------



## core

Ah I gotcha. Thanks!


----------



## core

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a web page for the brave. The page is in Japanese but the captions under the photos are in English. It has a ton of info about Japanese EL34s.
> 
> Audio EU Pentode
> 
> Here's the Babelfish translated page.
> 
> "About EL34/6CA7 there is no famous sphere even at today, probably will be. Loyal Isamu Morikawa MJ magazine July of 82 has explained the model of EL34 with the edition, but, here arranging the sphere which I procure accidentally, you will explain the model whose Matsushita make is a little detailed."



Wow that second link is more babel that the first one!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the input, Jon.

Core, you misunderstood me. A good vacuum makes a better tube, but they don't actually test the vacuum. Like Jon said, there are some electrical parameters that indicate where a tube is at. Tubes are graded by these electrical parameters and from this it can be derived if the tube is soft, medium or hard. Once a physical vacuum has been pulled on a tube and sealed off, there is no way to ever measure it again. 

Just so you know, when tubes used to be made in America, a hard vacuum was pulled on every tube, regardless of size. If a poor vacuum was detected, the tube was thrashed. Tube retailers started using the soft, medium and hard ratings as a way to sell more tubes instead of throwing them away. As I said, a soft power tube may appeal to certain players, but the tube will not last as long and is prone to bias drift. A soft vacuum in a preamp tube will cause premature failure and the tube will not function like it should.


----------



## core

Ok I'm definitely getting it now especially when making them for the military and long lasting commercial use, they couldn't afford to have soft or bad tubes. I remember now you talking about that issue in previous posts about them appealing to some players. It's making more sense now.

Here's a pic of my tubes with the standby off ready to play. BTW before I took it in to have it rebiased it didn't glow like that that I recall. In fact I think it must have been a cold bias previously from what I gather as even the heater filaments didn't glow much. Any rate I'm gonna switch them out but just want to verify the findings for future reference.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

core said:


> Ok I'm definitely getting it now especially when making them for the military and long lasting commercial use, they couldn't afford to have soft or bad tubes. I remember now you talking about that issue in previous posts about them appealing to some players. It's making more sense now.
> 
> Here's a pic of my tubes with the standby off ready to play. BTW before I took it in to have it rebiased it didn't glow like that that I recall. In fact I think it must have been a cold bias previously from what I gather as even the heater filaments didn't glow much. Any rate I'm gonna switch them out but just want to verify the findings for future reference.



Love that blue glow. However, the inner pair doesn't seem to have any. Are those valves even working?


----------



## core

Wilder Amplification said:


> Love that blue glow. However, the inner pair doesn't seem to have any. Are those valves even working?



Well there is a slight glow you can see better in low light.


----------



## PEMAMETAL

Hello,

I don't know too much about tubes, but I found this on e-bay and bought a pair to try in my JCM 800 2204 Clone. Are They good tubes?
I've never seen groove tubes with fender logo.
What Do you say?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matched-Quads-G...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5ad4861d1c


----------



## solarburn

PEMAMETAL said:


> Hello,
> 
> I don't know too much about tubes, but I found this on e-bay and bought a pair to try in my JCM 800 2204 Clone. Are They good tubes?
> I've never seen groove tubes with fender logo.
> What Do you say?
> 
> Matched Quads Groove Tubes 6550 tubes, Fender, NEW - eBay (item 390112615708 end time Jan-28-10 18:07:37 PST)



Fender owns GT now. Don't know if they are good or not but you're going to find out since you bought them hehe.


----------



## PEMAMETAL

> Fender owns GT now. Don't know if they are good or not but you're going to find out since you bought them hehe.



NOt sure about that, because its the first time I'm going to use 6550 tubes. I was using El34 JJ in the power.( My jcm 800 has a switch to choose between el34 and 6550).


----------



## solarburn

PEMAMETAL said:


> NOt sure about that, because its the first time I'm going to use 6550 tubes. I was using El34 JJ in the power.( My jcm 800 has a switch to choose between el34 and 6550).



Well let us know when you try them out. I'd like to hear about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Greetings. I was in Leavenworth, KS today. You know...home of the "Big House." The Federal Prison. Had some business over there and got the TWISTER mailed off. It's supposed to get there by Friday.

Why do I get this feeling that nothing will be wrong and he will retube it with all Chinese tubes and say, "It wasn't biased right." Then I'll get it and it will sound just like when I mailed it off. Oh I pray that won't turn true.

I will keep you posted.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Greetings. I was in Leavenworth, KS today. You know...home of the "Big House." The Federal Prison. Had some business over there and got the TWISTER mailed off. It's supposed to get there by Friday.
> 
> Why do I get this feeling that nothing will be wrong and he will retube it with all Chinese tubes and say, "It wasn't biased right." Then I'll get it and it will sound just like when I mailed it off. Oh I pray that won't turn true.
> 
> I will keep you posted.



Well hopefully he will realize there are a whole lot of us here who don't like expensive shitty sounding amps and have no problem saying so...

I'm sure he will be sensible and do all he can to get it sounding right again. These guys(Twister)just have to stand behind their product. Its the right thing to do. So we wait and see.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I really, really hope that there is some bad component somewhere in that amp. I don't want him to email me and say, "It checked out fine. I put the new tubes in it and it sounds great." If that is what happens at least when I sell it I can say that it has just been factory serviced. (Yeah Marty, but what if it still sounds like shit? Good point.)


----------



## thrawn86

Anyone have experience with the TAD brand?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, they are like one of the better Chinese brands. What are you looking at?


----------



## thrawn86

It's at AES; they have matching quads of 84's. Wondering if it's a better alternative to the GT or JJ's.


----------



## thrawn86

AES has matched quads of el84's and they're TAD. Just didn't know if they were a good alternative to JJ's.


----------



## thrawn86

Sorry about the double post.....I was wondering where that went!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would use the TAD's over the JJ's. Of course, you should know me by now. There are like two tubes by JJ I like. The rest I could care less about.

Or is that JJ/TESLA???


----------



## thrawn86

Nope, GrooveTube/Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's the one. 

BTW-Are you shopping for a quad of EL84's? I believe you have been for a while.


----------



## thrawn86

Mostly just to get an idea, yes. Unfortunately due to the economic state of my bank account I've yet to make any purchases. Soon I'll have the dough to be doing so.


----------



## thrawn86

Just spotted these:




Are they NOS Mullards? Worth bidding on?

I've also been under the impression that Phillips NOS tubes are pure goodness. Will someone please stand up and testifiy?


----------



## Landshark

What's the best place you guys have found for Winged =C= power tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Just spotted these:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are they NOS Mullards? Worth bidding on?
> 
> I've also been under the impression that Phillips NOS tubes are pure goodness. Will someone please stand up and testifiy?



Those appear to have the Blackburn code on the bottom. They may get pricey, but Mullard and Amperex EL84's are great tubes.


----------



## thrawn86

Well, I just won them. Hope it was worth it.


----------



## Aaron

I just recently tried jje34l's and they have a LOT more headroom, they seem to have given my dsl100 more crunch. They sound really good they are kind of gritty and dirty. Theyre great for classic rock.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I read a review of the Saratov EL84s and they specifically mentioned the difference in volume, same as I noticed with the one you sent. It's quite a bit louder than the Amperex I was using. I've got the Saratov in the Blackheart head and it really sounds good. It's a little more clean and chimey than the Amperex. 

I've had a snow day today and I've been messing with tubes in between working on the refrigerator and remodeling the bathroom. I hooked up my pedalboard for the first time in ages. I've been splitting my signal and running an overdrive into the Marshall and the Blackheart and putting a Univibe on the Marshall. Talk about melt-your-face-off! It's pretty close to Robin Trower's Bridge of Sighs tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I didn't know you had a UNIVIBE. Those are like $600 for an original with optional foot controller. I guess I should have bought one in 1975. I was using Morley pedals then and was very happy with the EVO-1 and PFD (Pro Flange Delay). Funny thing is, I loved Robin Trower. It blows my mind that I didn't get a UNIVIBE.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's not a Unicord Univibe. It's one of the Dunlop reissues. 

I saw Trower in Memphis a couple of years ago. He was playing through a JCM800 and what looked like an old 1959SLP, two Marshall fawn colored 4x12s, and his pedalboard was all Keeley. He was playing in a club called the New Daisy - a brick building that maybe holds 500 people. I was only a few feet away from him. It is the loudest thing I have ever heard in my life. I don't see how he's been able to do that for the last 45 years and still be able to hear. He was very nice at the after-the-show-sign-my-shit session.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had just joined the service when he got big. I had Bridge of Sighs on cassette and LP. Also the earlier Twice Removed From Yesterday and For Earth Below. After that, he started going in a different direction, lots of personnel changes and such. But those first three power trio albums were killer. 

Some info on his gear.

During live performances, his guitar is tuned a full step down, to a DGCFAD tuning, instead of the "standard" EADGBE tuning.

Trower is known to use anywhere from one to three 100-Watt Marshall heads with four to six cabinets on stage. Usually two JCM 800s, and a JCM 900. But, has also been known to link 100-Watt Marshall Plexi heads. It is not uncommon for Trower to play at very high volume levels through his rigs, even in relatively small venues, to achieve his desired tone. In studio sessions, Trower uses a mix of amplifiers, such as a Fender Blues Junior and Cornell Plexi Amplifers models to acquire different tonality. Recently, Trower has been using Marshall Vintage Modern 2466 heads live.

He has recently been using Fulltone pedals and effects. He favors the OCD, Distortion Pro, Fat Boost, CLYDE Deluxe Wah, Deja Vibe 2, Soul-Bender, and a BOSS Chromatic Tuner. He runs his Deja Vibe into his distortion pedal to get his famous tone. He was given his own signature Fulltone Robin Trower Overdrive in late 2008.

For his 2009 tour Robin was using his Fender Custom Shop Signature Stratocater into a Boss TU-2 Chromatic Tuner, Fulltone Robin Trower Overdrive, Fulltone Full Drive, Fulltone Clyde Standard Wah, Fulltone Wahfull, and Fulltone DejaVibe 2 into two Marshall Vintage Modern 2466 heads.


----------



## RiverRatt

He was certainly playing at high volume levels in that small venue. I didn't even think of earplugs until I was rudely reminded. I ended up using two cigarette filters, which didn't do much. I have a bad cell phone photo from the gig:


----------



## el zilcho

EH6CA7 in V5 and V6.
=C= in V7 and V8.

This is by far my favorite setup for my DSL now. Just thought I'd share.


----------



## MartyStrat54

el zilcho said:


> EH6CA7 in V5 and V6.
> =C= in V7 and V8.
> 
> This is by far my favorite setup for my DSL now. Just thought I'd share.



Hey Joe, this is like the time I ran the Mullard xf2 and the 6CA7 in the TSL602.

He's running one EH and one =C= in each pair instead of the EH's on the inner or outer pair and the same for the =C='s.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Joe, this is like the time I ran the Mullard xf2 and the 6CA7 in the TSL602.
> 
> He's running one EH and one =C= in each pair instead of the EH's on the inner or outer pair and the same for the =C='s.



I was just looking at this. Very interesting! It would be fun mixing them.

I remember you doing that.


----------



## el zilcho

I was surprised at the result. I was expecting the mixed power tubes to be a sort of "other" sound. Not simply getting just a blend of both sounds. But that's what it is. If you know what the Cs sound like and what the 6ca7s sound like, imagine them mixed together and that's how it sounds. You get the smooth sort of hollow el34 bloom with a lower midrange bump, and the bottom end extension and more aggressive upper mids and highs from the 6ca7s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Put a little gravy on that and I will have some with a side of corn.


----------



## el zilcho

Shake 'n Bake!


----------



## el zilcho

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Joe, this is like the time I ran the Mullard xf2 and the 6CA7 in the TSL602.
> 
> He's running one EH and one =C= in each pair instead of the EH's on the inner or outer pair and the same for the =C='s.



I didn't think of trying them on the inside and outside. Would they even bias up mixed like that? Switching between one and the other, the difference between the EH and the =C= is over a half turn on the bias pot to get in the same range.


----------



## MartyStrat54

el zilcho said:


> I didn't think of trying them on the inside and outside. Would they even bias up mixed like that? Switching between one and the other, the difference between the EH and the =C= is over a half turn on the bias pot to get in the same range.



Well your inside tubes are a pair and your outside tubes are a pair. You are actually putting one EH and one =C= together. Most people would run them like this: EH/=C=/=C=/EH or =C=/Eh/Eh/=C=. 

You are running them like this: EH/EH/=C=/=C=.


----------



## el zilcho

Right. See, my problem is I've always bought matched quads so I've never had to think about it. But that makes sense, you would have to have matching tubes on opposite sides of the transformer on an amp with a single bias point. The only reason what I did worked is because of the seperate bias pots.

Now you've got me wondering how they would sound the other way. But I'm REALLY happy with the way they sound now. Opposing mismatched tubes working against each other and whatnot...


----------



## MartyStrat54

As long as they hold bias and are not red plating during use, you're okay. Some guys purposely do that to achieve "their sound." It is really common with harmonica players. When you run your tubes that way, the signal waveform has a staggered slope. This increases the harmonics in the signal. This is probably why you like the sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

A power tube roller's dream! Jet City and THD are releasing an amp called the PicoValve which looks a lot like the UniValve and will accept almost any octal-base power tube without re-biasing. MSRP is $289. All I can find out about them says they are due out this spring.

I started a thread in "The Other Amps" if anyone wants to talk about it.

http://www.marshallforum.com/other-amps/11881-jet-city-thd-picovalve.html


----------



## thrawn86

RiverRatt said:


> A power tube roller's dream! Jet City and THD are releasing an amp called the PicoValve which looks a lot like the UniValve and will accept almost any octal-base power tube without re-biasing. MSRP is $289. All I can find out about them says they are due out this spring.
> 
> I started a thread in "The Other Amps" if anyone wants to talk about it.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/other-amps/11881-jet-city-thd-picovalve.html



That's pretty cool. Where did you find the price? I looked but came up short on their site.

On another note, I got my first NOS tubes today.




This is the best shot I could really get. The codes are all rx1 B1J5's. I assume that means the Blackburn plant. ? ? ? Smooth plate ( I think, again: ? ? ? ), O-getters. When I get some time next week I'll put 'em in.


----------



## RiverRatt

Click the link and go to the thread in "Other Amps." There's more info there. 

Congrats on the Mullards! They are Blackburn tubes, looks like they were made in October 1961. Smooth plates doesn't really apply to power tubes - that's mainly a Telefunken or Ei preamp tube identifier. Compare the staples and the number of slots (or holes) in the center of the plate with other Philips EL84s. I think that Mullards are the only Philips EL84 with the one round hole in the plate. Most of the other Philips tubes have one, two, or three slots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Helping someone buy some EL34's and he came across this listing. Can you tell what is wrong with these tubes?

QUAD EL34 6CA7 INTERNATIONAL SERVICEMASTER NOS TUBES - eBay (item 110498660381 end time Mar-24-10 23:33:22 PDT)

Item Number: 110498660381











Quad (4) pcs. Servicemaster EL34/6CA7 vacuum tubes.

Commonly referred to as "Siemens" or "Telefunken" EL34, these are the dimple top German tubes.

Excellent choice for your Marshall, Hiwatt, Marantz or your vintage Dynaco or other hi-fi amplifier. Much better in quality and sound than current production EL34's!

Tubes are NOS - never used 1970's production.

Made in West Germany 

It is best to go to the listing and look at all of the pictures.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't spot anything obvious. They look like normal RFT EL34s to me. Let me check it out tonight or tomorrow when I have some time.


----------



## solarburn

Check this out dooders:

Guitar Amplifier Tube Swapping

What think you?

I got to hit the hay. I'll catch up to you guys later.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Check this out dooders:
> 
> Guitar Amplifier Tube Swapping
> 
> What think you?
> 
> I got to hit the hay. I'll catch up to you guys later.



Go to your link and click on, "Tube versus SS Rectifiers." Then you can leave me a comment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I can't spot anything obvious. They look like normal RFT EL34s to me. Let me check it out tonight or tomorrow when I have some time.



Okay, I will spill the beans. First off Telefunken EL34's are extremely rare and they had seam tops. They only came with metal bases. Siemens was a relabeler and got their tubes from RFT. We've already gone through this. People have a tendency to call RFT tubes, "Siemens." So right off the bat he is using the wrong description about these tubes. They are not like Telefunkens and Siemens got the tubes from RFT.

He states that the tubes are NOS from the 70's. This can be trouble, because International Servicemaster relabeled a whole bunch of "Russian" tubes during this time period. 

The main thing I wanted you to notice was at the very end of his listings. It said, "Made In West Germany" and in fact it says so on the tube. Well we know that RFT's are not from West Germany. "So" if they are being deceitful about the tube origin, there is probably more here than meets the eye. I don't even think they are RFT's. I think they were the copy cat Russian tubes made to look like an RFT.

As I said, I had the potential buyer contact the seller. One thing is for sure, he isn't Bryan Sanborn. This guy told him that he hadn't tested the tubes, but because they came out of the same box they were probably very close.



These are the sort of deals you walk away from, which the buyer did.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a 1970s Russian RFT copy. I've got a quad of these if you want to play around with them sometime. All the ones I've seen have the copper post like this one. Also, the bases are a lot taller on the Russian tubes. This one has the RFT dimple in the top, too.






I'm so used to Siemens being interchangeable for RFT on eBay that I don't even think twice about it. Don't know about the W. Germany label.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Go to your link and click on, "Tube versus SS Rectifiers." Then you can leave me a comment.



Oops! Too late for me. I bought an amp with a tube rectifriar. WTF was I thinking. All that extra expense($16)and that shitty spongey feel. I'm a loser! I'm a throw back and I like shitty tube rectified tone. I'm ashamed...for being a sponge rocker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh well, you don't follow the norm, you cut your own path. I think a 50 watt rectifier tube on a 20 watt amp will do the job nicely. They fail to mention that amps with tube rectifiers have a more natural open sound. I mean, you have what they call an "all tube amp." The term is used very loosely nowadays. It doesn't sound the same saying, "A partial tube amp with SS rectifier," but folks, that's what they are. A TSL is not an all tube amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm so used to Siemens being interchangeable for RFT on eBay that I don't even think twice about it. Don't know about the W. Germany label.



Well your 70's Russian copy isn't the one I am thinking of. Some were clones and relabeled for sale in Europe. I used to remember the story behind it, as it does have something to do with the procuring of tube equipment. I also remember something about the fact that they used all of the leftover materials. 

Your tube could be what came after they exhausted their resources.

Yeah, my main thing was the "West Germany" on the tube. No one in West Germany made that tube. It was an RFT exclusive. Sort of like the box saying, "Made in USA" in big letters and the tube inside looked fine, unless you pulled out a giant magnifying glass and in damn near invisible ink it said, "Made In Japan."


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh well, you don't follow the norm, you cut your own path. I think a 50 watt rectifier tube on a 20 watt amp will do the job nicely. They fail to mention that amps with tube rectifiers have a more natural open sound. I mean, you have what they call an "all tube amp." The term is used very loosely nowadays. It doesn't sound the same saying, "A partial tube amp with SS rectifier," but folks, that's what they are. A TSL is not an all tube amp.



Yeah and it does sound really good. I'm happy with it.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

These are the RFTs that came in my Super Lead 100





and the Mullards in the JMP50 which I ended up keeping...it turned out to be all original.


----------



## RiverRatt

30stringsandblackdog said:


> These are the RFTs that came in my Super Lead 100
> and the Mullards in the JMP50 which I ended up keeping...it turned out to be all original.



Screw the RFTs - that is one sweet looking amp!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, look at the size of the stock power tranny for a 50 watt amp. For being rare, there are a lot of members who have this tremolo head.


----------



## Madaxeman

Just picked up some of these for my Jubilee. 
Mullard XF2 1969 original - Tested, & matched. 
I have used winged -C- Svetlanas for years but thought it was time for a change. 
Did have a 2553 loaded with siemens El34s and that sounded amazing so I'm looking forward to trying these out. 
Does anyone here run these in their Marshall



?


----------



## DeLorean

I've just picked up 2 of these - 

1 - 12ax7A Raytheon Baldwin Tube Black Pl *Match* on eBay (end time 12-Mar-10 20:56:17 GMT)

1 of which I intend to stick in V2 of my DSL401 following advice from Marty (cheers dude! ) Anyone else got thoughts on these? Did I get boned on the price?

I also just picked up a matched quad of these:
6P14P - REFLEKTOR VINTAGE PENTODES, EL84, One or more.. on eBay (end time 13-Mar-10 20:29:42 GMT) - for under £20, so I think I'm happy - I guess I'll find out for sure once they arrive!

Is there any way that I can tell - just by looking at an Ebay auction whether a tube is high gain? I see lots of test results which don't mean a great deal to me - 28/32 or Hickock 2000-2100 range - and data like that on various auctions for NOS tubes.

Cheers!


----------



## RiverRatt

DeLorean, you will like the 6P14Ps. I got one from Marty and they are really strong and chimey. I like it better than the Amperex I got awhile back, and it sounded really nice.

I think you did OK on the Raytheon. I've been watching that seller for awhile but haven't bought anything yet. He was selling them in pairs earlier. If minimum good on his Hickok tester is 1250, they are pretty strong at 2100. I've bought some that tested at around 1850 on a Hickok and they are great for V1 in my DSL.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

RiverRatt said:


> DeLorean, you will like the 6P14Ps. I got one from Marty and they are really strong and chimey. I like it better than the Amperex I got awhile back, and it sounded really nice.
> 
> I think you did OK on the Raytheon. I've been watching that seller for awhile but haven't bought anything yet. He was selling them in pairs earlier. If minimum good on his Hickok tester is 1250, they are pretty strong at 2100. I've bought some that tested at around 1850 on a Hickok and they are great for V1 in my DSL.



Hello. It looks like you guys are all over the place. How many tube threads are on the forum? I hope just these two. I see a lot of the same members. I guess I know where to go for any tube advice. I'm running RFT's in my DSL and Winged C's in my 2204. I've been over at the preamp tube thread talking to MartyStrat about changing premap tubes.

Nice to meet all of you.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> DeLorean, you will like the 6P14Ps. I got one from Marty and they are really strong and chimey. I like it better than the Amperex I got awhile back, and it sounded really nice.
> 
> I think you did OK on the Raytheon. I've been watching that seller for awhile but haven't bought anything yet. He was selling them in pairs earlier. If minimum good on his Hickok tester is 1250, they are pretty strong at 2100. I've bought some that tested at around 1850 on a Hickok and they are great for V1 in my DSL.



Was there a year specified on the 6P14Ps?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Was the there a year specified on the 6P14Ps?



If i may answer that, i recommened them, the year is 1979.

edit here is a working link to the auction

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6P14P-REFLEKTOR-VINTAGE-PENTODES-EL84-One-or-more_W0QQitemZ350292953588QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## solarburn

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> If i may answer that, i recommened them, the year is 1979.



Thank you SOTA! I have a pair of 1967's running in my NT. Very nice tubes.


----------



## TwinACStacks

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oops! Too late for me. I bought an amp with a tube rectifriar. WTF was I thinking. All that extra expense($16)and that shitty spongey feel. I'm a loser! I'm a throw back and I like shitty tube rectified tone. I'm ashamed...for being a sponge rocker.



Fortunately for You SB, Ted Weber(RIP), has a solution for your shortcoming. It's called a Coppercap and it will restore You to Full S.S. rectified Glory....

 TWIN


BTW: Welcome LISA!!!


----------



## solarburn

TwinACStacks said:


> Fortunately for You SB, Ted Weber(RIP) has a solution for your shortcoming. It's called a Coppercap and it will restore You to Full S.S. rectified Glory....
> 
> TWIN



You want me to give up the sponginess...

Actually its not overly saggy like a a pair of old ladies...well you know what I'm driving at. Its just right said "Goldilocks".


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello. It looks like you guys are all over the place. How many tube threads are on the forum? I hope just these two. I see a lot of the same members. I guess I know where to go for any tube advice. I'm running RFT's in my DSL and Winged C's in my 2204. I've been over at the preamp tube thread talking to MartyStrat about changing premap tubes.
> 
> Nice to meet all of you.





Yeah, that's the danger of sitting at a computer all day - it's too easy to jump over here and waste an afternoon!

Don't worry about catching up on past history... I think all our opinions have changed a lot since we started that thread. Just jump in and ask a question if you have one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Thank you SOTA! I have a pair of 1967's running in my NT. Very nice tubes.



Yeah, I bought a box of 50 of these 1967 military EL84M's. Very nice tubes with extended playing time of 5,000+ hours. I got them cheap and they sound really good. I guess that's why I have given some of them away. I rather that my friends be using them. The 1967 batch is all but gone. There might be a few batches out there. I think I have six or seven left. They work really good in a single ended Class A amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TwinACStacks said:


> Fortunately for You SB, Ted Weber(RIP), has a solution for your shortcoming. It's called a Coppercap and it will restore You to Full S.S. rectified Glory....
> 
> TWIN
> 
> 
> BTW: Welcome LISA!!!



Yes, there are several version of a plug and play SS rectifier. They actually work really well, but I would double check with the supplier before just throwing it into the amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I bought a box of 50 of these 1967 military EL84M's. Very nice tubes with extended playing time of 5,000+ hours. I got them cheap and they sound really good. I guess that's why I have given some of them away. I rather that my friends be using them. The 1967 batch is all but gone. There might be a few batches out there. I think I have six or seven left. They work really good in a single ended Class A amp.



I'm going to have to find a pair of these if I ever get that AC15. Do you think you could match another one to the one you sent me awhile back?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to have to find a pair of these if I ever get that AC15. Do you think you could match another one to the one you sent me awhile back?



I'll tell you what Alan. Since you are such a mean horn player, I'll try to match up two of these and I will just send them to you. You must be able to prove that you bought the AC15. A copy of the sales receipt will suffice. If you buy the amp, I'll send you the tubes. It don't get any better than that.


----------



## TwinACStacks

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You want me to give up the sponginess...
> 
> Actually its not overly saggy like a a pair of old ladies...well you know what I'm driving at. Its just right said "Little Red Riding Hood".



 I believe that was Goldilocks, unless "Red" said that as she was checking out the big bad wolf's package.....

 TWIN

BTW, LISA whut's a Premap tube? A dyslexic 712AX.


----------



## solarburn

TwinACStacks said:


> I believe that was Goldilocks, unless "Red" said that as she was checking out the big bad wolf's package.....
> 
> TWIN



I'm a dumbass!

I fixed it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll tell you what Alan. Since your are such a mean horn player, I'll try to match up two of these and I will just send them to you. You must be able to prove that you bought the AC15. A copy of the sales receipt will suffice. If you buy the amp, I'll send you the tubes. It don't get any better than that.



Yeah, right. I just dusted my chops off a couple of weeks ago. It ain't like riding a bicycle. Community band shit is one thing. I got a real chart put in front of me for the first time in like 10 years and I felt like an idiot. I could still read it. I could still play it. Just not all at once.

Thanks for the tube offer! Seriously, I'll box up that single if you want. I've got a batch for you to test that I'll be sending soon and I can send it with those. I'll forward the receipt along if anybody ever gets the damned things in stock.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Anyone got a view on these.....i need a matched quad of EL34's for when i get the 6101 converted from 5881 to EL34.

eBay.ie: EL34 SIEMENS MATCHED QUAD NOS (item 260508232828 end time 17-Mar-10 10:19:36 GMT)

I have lined up a matched quad of EH EL34's on ebay for €65 all in. But i came across those Siemens above.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> Boy business is slow. The tube threads are getting a little hard to find. I thought I would revive this and say that depending on the weather (it's a blizzard here) I will be getting a couple of pairs of Sylvania FAT BOY 6CA7's. One pair is a very rare Triple O Getter tube. It is reported to be the best 6CA7 ever made. Needless to say I am stoked to get it. The other pair are Sylvania Double O Getters. Nice tubes, nice price.
> 
> I'll post pictures when I get them.



The ones I got from Tina are all Double Os. I still have them in their boxes as the RFTs that came with the Super Lead are still cranking.


----------



## Procter2812

http://www.melmusic.com.au/shop/products_pictures/58820.jpg

Check out these triple getter black plate CP 6l6GC's. Made/relabled by bugera??

Wander if theyre any good?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are "disc" getters. They look to be Chinese. Since Bugera is made in China, I would say that they are getting the tubes from the Motherland.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Anyone got a view on these.....i need a matched quad of EL34's for when i get the 6101 converted from 5881 to EL34.

http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...07.m38.l1313&_nkw=260508232828+&_fvi=1&_rdc=1

I have lined up a matched quad of EH EL34's on ebay for €65 all in. But i came across those Siemens above.

I rebumped my post because people passed it by...


----------



## Procter2812

Darrenw5094 said:


> Anyone got a view on these.....i need a matched quad of EL34's for when i get the 6101 converted from 5881 to EL34.
> 
> eBay.ie: EL34 SIEMENS MATCHED QUAD NOS (item 260508232828 end time 17-Mar-10 10:19:36 GMT)
> 
> I have lined up a matched quad of EH EL34's on ebay for €65 all in. But i came across those Siemens above.



They look idtical to my JJ E34L and considering that Siemens was a relabeler, i would think that they are JJ's..


----------



## Darrenw5094

Procter2812 said:


> They look idtical to my JJ E34L and considering that Siemens was a relabeler, i would think that they are JJ's..



So i give them a miss then? EH EL34's seem to be my #1 choice at the moment.


----------



## Procter2812

Darrenw5094 said:


> So i give them a miss then? EH EL34's seem to be my #1 choice at the moment.



I woud wait until Marty chimes in... he knows more than me!

Tung-sols are supposed to be really good... so are the Ruby's and I know from experience that the =C= are top notch... I love em but quite expensive!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darrenw5094 said:


> Anyone got a view on these.....i need a matched quad of EL34's for when i get the 6101 converted from 5881 to EL34.
> 
> eBay.ie: EL34 SIEMENS MATCHED QUAD NOS (item 260508232828 end time 17-Mar-10 10:19:36 GMT)
> 
> I have lined up a matched quad of EH EL34's on ebay for €65 all in. But i came across those Siemens above.
> 
> I rebumped my post because people passed it by...



The link is dead, but being that I am smart, I copied the item number out of the address. It's a shame that they don't show the tube. Based on what was said in the listing, these will be East German tubes by RFT. They will have an inverted dimple top. I don't know the conversion, but matched quads of RFT's go for $200 in the US. I would hit these, if the price is right. 

One other note. Siemens got all of their EL34's from RFT. It was only in the later 70's that the Russian's made some copies of RFT's. Some were very close as the original parts were used and the later ones had a taller base and was obviously a different tube.

If these convert to $200USD or less...Buy Now.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I have RFT's in my DSL100 and they are so much better than the other tubes I used. I got mine for $225.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, all you UK tube fanatics. You have a company in the UK called Edicron. They are a tube relabeler. During their early years, they relabeled Mullard and RFT, as well as Ei and Tesla. Edicron puts a code on the tubes and they can tell you the brand and when it was made by the alpha-numeric code.

So if you see some Edicrons, have the seller send you the codes. Then quickly contact Edicron by email (Attn: Customer Service) and get the info on the tubes. I bought four Edicrons from Turkey for $42USD and they were all RFT's. I had them sold in just a few days.

Something to think about.


----------



## USSR

you seems to know what you ar talking about, so i post here to you one thread quistion i did just put on the vintaget page. Help me if you can please.

What should i pay??
Nos Mullard ECC83/12AX7-s from 1960:s how much should i pay?
NOS Mullard EL 34 XF1, 2 pair of matching. XF2 early 170:s Two matching
XF4 last serie made by mullard, marked philips from 1976-80.
What to pay?? at what price is it a good deal.
Some other NOS tubes i can use in my marshall?.
i did fine this ones an many more but not noing what to pay? He has more tubes, In fact a lot of tubes RCA, General E, Telefunken, Valvo etc.....

P
PS my Amp JMP Lead 50w 1973.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Jesstaa is one of the regulars on the Preamp Thread. Months ago, we expanded into talking about all of the tubes in a Marshall, but we mainly are preamp tube rollers looking for the best sound. Our experimentation has paid off and we have come up with certain tube combination's for certain Marshall amps.
> 
> If your preamp tubes are sounding like crap, your power tubes are going to amplify it. Therefore, tweaking your preamp tubes is the first step to achieving killer sound. Once the preamp tubes are taken care of, we can move on to the power section.
> 
> NOS vs Current Production (CP)-There is no comparison. NOS power tubes simply rule. You can talk about how good your JJ's sound or your Winged =C='s, but they are way behind an NOS tube in quality. First off, an NOS EL34 is rated for 800V on the plates. When they were tested, they were burned in at 600V. This is as high as you can go safely with an octal base. Going higher increases the chance of high voltage arcing.
> 
> Side note: There are certain online tube seller's that have a bunch of B-Stock EL34 tubes. Beware! They are listed as having a limit to the voltage they can take. Stay away from these "bargain" NOS tubes. They're crap.
> 
> Most modern EL34's are burned in at 400 to 450 volts. This is at or below what a Marshall power supply puts out. In fact, if you have certain models of Marshall amps the HT can be higher than 600V. I would strongly recommend using NOS tubes only in an amp like that.
> 
> When a CP power tube is burned in, there are many that fail. Those that pass are boxed up for sale or for OE use on an amp. I have talked to many employee's of the big music stores and they say it is a crap shoot every time they turn an amp on for the first time. This is due to a high failure rate of the power tubes that supposedly tested good.
> 
> I have been on the forum now long enough to see that someone will buy a matched set of CP tubes and within a week or a month, one will fail. This failure causes a great amount of current to pass and one bad tube can take out the others. If this happens, usually there is board damage, component damage and possibly a fried output or power transformer.
> 
> This is why I use NOS tubes. They are reliable. Do they cost more? Yes. You can get a matched quad of RFT's for $199 on EBAY. I highly recommend them. They add so much depth to your sound. They reflect the tone of the preamp tubes with ease. RFT's have a tight bass, pronounced, articulate mid's and a sparkle on the high end. A beautiful sounding power tube and worth the money. On top of that, NOS tubes last longer, because they are built better and designed to take more power.
> 
> I have an amp with xf2 Mullards. Wonderful sounding tubes. These are a little warmer in the midrange compared to the RFT's. The RFT's tend to break up at lower volume over the Mullards, but not by much. Not really a fair comparison due to different amps with different speakers, but turning up the volume, you can tell when the power tubes kick in and when they start to sing.
> 
> I would tell someone to get some good preamp tubes first, especially for V1 and V2. This should make a big improvement in your sound. If you are happy with your CP power tubes, then stay with them. However, if you want to take the next step, then you will want NOS power tubes. Those of you with 50 watt amps can pick up a pair for $70 to $99 a pair. Not bad, considering all the improvements you will get.
> 
> I have a lot of experience with CP tubes and a lot of people on the forum are always asking about which one to buy? It's like buying speakers, it's what sounds best to you...not me. For those of you who are happy with CP tubes, I say try different kinds out, because one brand may sound better in your amp over another brand. Don't buy the cheapest tube, you get what you pay for. I still think the quality of a Russian CP tube beats out a Chinese tube. The other thing is to remember that a lot of companies that sell tubes do not make tubes. Did you get that? There is a lot of relabeling going on and some of it is illegal. You can't get a 12AX7 Telefunken new for $30. It's a fake made in China. Only buy from a reputable company. Some relabeled tubes are very good and others are crap. There are also some new tube companies that are stirring up the tube community with their new tubes. Tech Tube is one of them. They are making 12AX7's at the old Mullard Blackburn factory. Due to legal issue's they cannot call themselves Mullard. However, their product is steadily getting better and I think by the beginning of 2010, they should have a solid product on the market that will rival the sound of any NOS tube. They have plans to make EL34's as well.
> 
> In closing, I understand that some of you are very loyal to the type of CP power tubes you use and that's not a problem. Not everyone is going to make the switch to NOS power tubes. I'm just pointing out that there are advantages to using NOS. I feel safer using NOS in my amps, because they are so damn dependable.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, I saw on the preamp thread that you sold tubes. Do you? What kind do you sell?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Marty, I saw on the preamp thread that you sold tubes. Do you? What kind do you sell?



I will send you a PM and give you the run down.


----------



## USSR

Jae said:


> Hey Marty, Thanks alot for this amazing info. and for putting up with my lack of knowledge.
> 
> Sorry, the tubes measure at 5800, 5800, 5800 and 5700 mhos. I have a Superlead that I can put them in, or maybe put the two matched ones in my Marshall '78 JMP 50W.
> 
> The price is sky high though, but I'm willing to pay that price to hopefully get that tone. Even though it doesn't work out, I'm willing to pay to try, cause that's the only way to get there, right?



What is Sky hig price in your world? I also have some NOS mullard around the corner but not noing what to pay?


----------



## MartyStrat54

USSR said:


> you seems to know what you ar talking about, so i post here to you one thread quistion i did just put on the vintaget page. Help me if you can please.
> 
> What should i pay??
> Nos Mullard ECC83/12AX7-s from 1960:s how much should i pay?
> NOS Mullard EL 34 XF1, 2 pair of matching. XF2 early 170:s Two matching
> XF4 last serie made by mullard, marked philips from 1976-80.
> What to pay?? at what price is it a good deal.
> Some other NOS tubes i can use in my marshall?.
> i did fine this ones an many more but not noing what to pay? He has more tubes, In fact a lot of tubes RCA, General E, Telefunken, Valvo etc.....
> 
> P
> PS my Amp JMP Lead 50w 1973.



These are tough questions, because I am not looking at the tubes or high quality pictures. Any appraisal needs at least pictures. The value of tubes id dependent on a variety of factors. The HiFi crowd tends to want their tubes with good to perfect labels still on the tubes. The better the label, the higher the price.

If the Mullard ECC83's "test" solid and the label is partially worn of, expect to pay $40 to $60USD each for them. Sometimes a great bargain can be had on EBAY and a pair can be had for $75. What you need to concern yourself with is whether the tubes have been tested and whether the seller accepts returns. Also, the history of the seller. Does he only sell tubes every so often between coloring books and baseball card? 

Does the XF1 have the shiny nickle metal base? These can have date codes from 1954 to 1959. NOS/NIB are $425 to $450 per pair. Note: New In Box.

XF2's were the early 60's and NOS is $300 per pair.

XF4's are priced according to the year and type of getter they had. Some are single getter and some are dual getter. Used, $100 per pair. NIB, $200 on up to $300.

If you do some research, you will find that there was a short lived XF5 and it sells on the same level as the XF4.

The Telefunken and the Valvo are the tubes you want to run in V1, your shielded tube. The RCA's and GE's are perfect for your other slots. You have a Super Lead. You want the best tube in V1 and then you can run RCA's or GE's in V2 and V3. (These may come with factory shields as well.)

I hope this helps.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

How did you learn all of this stuff? My head is spinning. I never knew there was so much to getting tubes. I have a lot to learn. Some of them are so expensive. Almost as much as a small amp or guitar. How long do they last?


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS power tubes last much longer than the current stuff. In fact, old Mullard XF1's will fetch about as much money as a pair of NOS one's. It takes a lot for these tubes to die.

If I was putting a time period on this, I would say at least five times longer than CP tubes.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What are CP tubes?


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> The link is dead, but being that I am smart, I copied the item number out of the address. It's a shame that they don't show the tube. Based on what was said in the listing, these will be East German tubes by RFT. They will have an inverted dimple top. I don't know the conversion, but matched quads of RFT's go for $200 in the US. I would hit these, if the price is right.
> 
> One other note. Siemens got all of their EL34's from RFT. It was only in the later 70's that the Russian's made some copies of RFT's. Some were very close as the original parts were used and the later ones had a taller base and was obviously a different tube.
> 
> If these convert to $200USD or less...Buy Now.



It still works for me... Goes onto that rover ebay thing.. then comes on a couple seconds later.

Im 99% sure that they are E34L's. They look nothing like an RFT EL34... They have the same plates as the JJ's same base, same getter and same shaped glass.

I have a pair of E34L's in my TSL... they make a few weird sounds like white noise on a TV if you dont leave them to warm up for longer than 1 min... Might be time for some new ones.

Also when this happens, theres a slight blue flash coming from the cathode sleeve on the top of the mica... Its probably a bad sign but i had no more problems once they had been on for a while.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Current Production. Once you get to hanging around the preamp tube thread, you will pick up on all of this stuff.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I don't have much time, but I thing I will go to the preamp thread and do some more reading.


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> It still works for me... Goes onto that rover ebay thing.. then comes on a couple seconds later.
> 
> Im 99% sure that they are E34L's. They look nothing like an RFT EL34... They have the same plates as the JJ's same base, same getter and same shaped glass.
> 
> I have a pair of E34L's in my TSL... they make a few weird sounds like white noise on a TV if you dont leave them to warm up for longer than 1 min... Might be time for some new ones.
> 
> Also when this happens, theres a slight blue flash coming from the cathode sleeve on the top of the mica... Its probably a bad sign but i had no more problems once they had been on for a while.



I'm tending to agree with this. They definitely don't look like my RFTs, either. Those boxes are legit, but the tubes are wrong on several key features. The bottom of the base has those radial lines in it, the plates don't have 4 staples per side, and they aren't showing the dimple in the top. 

Check these Ei 6CA7s out. Anyone ever tried them? I'd really like to, but not $250 worth.

4Pcs. NOS EI 6CA7 / EL34 OO Getter. - eBay (item 300391657863 end time Feb-27-10 20:01:50 PST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm tending to agree with this. They definitely don't look like my RFTs, either. Those boxes are legit, but the tubes are wrong on several key features. The bottom of the base has those radial lines in it, the plates don't have 4 staples per side, and they aren't showing the dimple in the top.



Am I not looking at the right listing? The one I looked at showed four boxes. There were no tubes to be seen. Did I miss something?


----------



## RiverRatt

http://cgi.ebay.ie/EL34-SIEMENS-MATCHED-QUAD-NOS_W0QQitemZ260508232828

There's a shot of the boxes, a shot of all four tubes, and one close-up of the label.


----------



## USSR

MartyStrat54 said:


> These are tough questions, because I am not looking at the tubes or high quality pictures. Any appraisal needs at least pictures. The value of tubes id dependent on a variety of factors. The HiFi crowd tends to want their tubes with good to perfect labels still on the tubes. The better the label, the higher the price.
> 
> If the Mullard ECC83's "test" solid and the label is partially worn of, expect to pay $40 to $60USD each for them. Sometimes a great bargain can be had on EBAY and a pair can be had for $75. What you need to concern yourself with is whether the tubes have been tested and whether the seller accepts returns. Also, the history of the seller. Does he only sell tubes every so often between coloring books and baseball card?
> 
> Does the XF1 have the shiny nickle metal base? These can have date codes from 1954 to 1959. NOS/NIB are $425 to $450 per pair. Note: New In Box.
> 
> XF2's were the early 60's and NOS is $300 per pair.
> 
> XF4's are priced according to the year and type of getter they had. Some are single getter and some are dual getter. Used, $100 per pair. NIB, $200 on up to $300.
> 
> If you do some research, you will find that there was a short lived XF5 and it sells on the same level as the XF4.
> 
> The Telefunken and the Valvo are the tubes you want to run in V1, your shielded tube. The RCA's and GE's are perfect for your other slots. You have a Super Lead. You want the best tube in V1 and then you can run RCA's or GE's in V2 and V3. (These may come with factory shields as well.)
> 
> I hope this helps.




Thanks Great !!!!! thanks i dont know if i understand everything, yet, but will do, and probobly i will come back with som other Q.

About the seller of this. living near to me, he is only, selling tubes NOS vintage. for "A perfect pair of slightly used Mullard xf2, single O getter, measures as new. Datecode B2F3 on both tubes, same batch" he want 180 USD.

The FX1 has the shiny nickle metal base. They are 4 matching. 
And he is not selling on Ebay or other alike sites only music neard magazines

I hope i get his full prize list on monday.

p


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I went back and now the little pictures loaded up at the bottom of the main picture frame. It did not do that prior and all I had was four boxes to look at. It's hard to say what these are, because the 70's truly were wild when it came to a tube and the box it was in. A lot of companies had thousands of boxes left over and it didn't bother them to stick a shit tube in there. 

"Now" the same can be said for sellers who buy old tube boxes and stick current production tubes in there. How's that for a scam? The tubes may not even have a part number on them, just on the box.

Now you guys are talking about the tube looking like a JJ E34L? Well JJ wasn't in business in the 70's. The tubes for sale has a lot number under the PN. The print is not like what you would find on a JJ. Since they do not show the top (for a reason), I must now assume that it is a dome top and these could have been made at several tube factories. I just can't buy the JJ E34L's. Modern tube production got off the ground in 1987 to 1989. JJ started selling tubes in 1994 and they only made small signal tubes. The EL34's came four or five years later.

If these are JJ's, somebody went to the trouble to relabel them to look like a Russian tube. For you to be right, these would be 2005 tubes in 1972 boxes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

USSR said:


> Thanks Great !!!!! thanks i dont know if i understand everything, yet, but will do, and probobly i will come back with som other Q.
> 
> About the seller of this. living near to me, he is only, selling tubes NOS vintage. for "A perfect pair of slightly used Mullard xf2, single O getter, measures as new. Datecode B2F3 on both tubes, same batch" he want 180 USD.
> 
> The FX1 has the shiny nickle metal base. They are 4 matching.
> And he is not selling on Ebay or other alike sites only music neard magazines
> 
> I hope i get his full prize list on monday.
> 
> p



Buy them all if you can get them at that price. That is cheap.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I went back and now the little pictures loaded up at the bottom of the main picture frame. It did not do that prior and all I had was four boxes to look at. It's hard to say what these are, because the 70's truly were wild when it came to a tube and the box it was in. A lot of companies had thousands of boxes left over and it didn't bother them to stick a shit tube in there.
> 
> "Now" the same can be said for sellers who buy old tube boxes and stick current production tubes in there. How's that for a scam? The tubes may not even have a part number on them, just on the box.
> 
> Now you guys are talking about the tube looking like a JJ E34L? Well JJ wasn't in business in the 70's. The tubes for sale has a lot number under the PN. The print is not like what you would find on a JJ. Since they do not show the top (for a reason), I must now assume that it is a dome top and these could have been made at several tube factories. I just can't buy the JJ E34L's. Modern tube production got off the ground in 1987 to 1989. JJ started selling tubes in 1994 and they only made small signal tubes. The EL34's came four or five years later.
> 
> If these are JJ's, somebody went to the trouble to relabel them to look like a Russian tube. For you to be right, these would be 2005 tubes in 1972 boxes.



But we're agreed that these aren't RFTs, correct? That's what I was getting at.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Correct, looking at the tube close ups and the fact that if these tubes had dimple tops the seller would be all over that, I would have to say not RFT.

During this time frame there were a lot of mystery Russian tubes. Some were relabeled, but had the military markings still on the tube. It's hard to say about these. I would like a "stand up" picture and a better look at the top of the tubes. It almost looks like a Double OO getter tube, but it may just be the reflection of the getter flash.

This is another one of those auctions you are better off leaving for some nimrod.
And I feel sorry for the nimrod that buys these. The bottom line is I need better pictures to make a call on these, but they are not RFT's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Did you see these? They're purty! Not planning on buying, I've just never ran across any Ei 6CA7s.

4Pcs. NOS EI 6CA7 / EL34 OO Getter. - eBay (item 300391657863 end time Feb-27-10 20:01:50 PST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I looked these up when you listed them on the other page. I just didn't get a chance to comment on them. Yeah, the good old nipple tip that you can find in some Marshall amps. They approached them as you would a 12AX7, but they just made the glass bigger. Supposedly a very smooth sounding tube. If it's as musical as their EL84's, then it's a good tube. (A little pricey for me.)


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Hey kids  time for this week's tube porn:








First is a shot of Sylvania EL34s from Tina, second is a shot of 70s Saratov EL84s from Sgt. Overdrive (Terry).
two more shots in the preamp thread


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, you got tubes from Terry. Way to go, man! I haven't had much luck with him. Me & Marty were looking at some ultra-rare RCA side getter 12AX7s that he had and he never got back on them. If you have an inside track, ask him what happened to them. He said he had a bucket full of them last I heard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah...a rusty bucket. He picked the bucket up and the bottom fell out.

I was willing to meet his price, no haggling. I just told him that I needed them tested. He said, "Okay." That was the last I ever heard of him. I do know that the side getters were prone to shorts. I bought two from Tina and one of them was bad. It was shorted. Apparently that side O getter can move and short the tube out.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah...a rusty bucket. He picked the bucket up and the bottom fell out.
> 
> I was willing to meet his price, no haggling. I just told him that I needed them tested. He said, "Okay." That was the last I ever heard of him. I do know that the side getters were prone to shorts. I bought two from Tina and one of them was bad. It was shorted. Apparently that side O getter can move and short the tube out.



Probably explains why they are so rare. The one I got from GG won't work in a combo, but it's good in the DSL. I put it in the Epi VJ and it tailed off with the most amazing burst of noise I've ever heard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hear that in a powerful combo, the side getter can actually touch the glass. Ouch, that will cause a "ring."


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

It was a while ago when I first got Diana...she had Russian Mullard EL84 RIs which I still have, 2 GTs, and an unknown to this day tube. I asked around on the Amp Garage's Trainwreck board and they recommended him and Saratovs for Rockets. It took a while for the transactions but it wasn't his fault. It was the time of the wild fires in California and he had to constantly keep an eye out for it and other relatives in his neighborhood...the fires were within 100 feet or so of his house. I ended up getting 2 quads of the 70s Saratovs, and Brimar, Amperex, and Valvo 12AX7s. As soon as I got them, I put them in and let me tell you, it was an INCREDIBLE change..Diana sang like a bird after that.


----------



## thrawn86

Thought I'd pop by and give an update on the Mullards I bought. I really like the sound so far. My Ei's were no slouch and will remain my backup set, but these Mullards definately have a vintage feel to them. I haven't done them justice though....still need to plug into my cab and give them a run. But even through the combo they sound very good.


----------



## USSR

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buy them all if you can get them at that price. That is cheap.



How do I get the pics in to the forum? I have em jpegs?
Some Mullard and one Philips made by Mullard
MullardEL35(quad)Metalbase.jpg

MullardEL34(pair).jpg 

P


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

USSR said:


> How do I get the pics in to the forum? I have em jpegs?
> Some Mullard and one Philips made by Mullard
> MullardEL35(quad)Metalbase.jpg
> 
> MullardEL34(pair).jpg
> 
> P



You need to put them on a hosting site, if you have some server space you can do it like that and link to them, if not you can upload them to a site like photobucket and link to them like that. Ive just noticed that if you go into the user control panel on this site you can aupload a pictures there.


----------



## USSR

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buy them all if you can get them at that price. That is cheap.



Other valves/tubes he has for sale is:

Preamp.
New Old Stock Brimar CV4004 from the early sixties in original red/black/orange boxes

early 1960´s short gray plates RCA 7025 tubes in original RCA old styled boxes

Sylvania 12AX7A/ECC83/7025
Early 1960´s gray plates tube with large O halo and copper grid posts, yellow printing, in original boxes

Brimar (BRIttish Made American Range) CV4004/E83CC. Perfect tube in phono sections with low noise an microphonics. Very balanced tube from top to bottom. Available in matched pairs or quads.

Telefunken ECC83 Smooth plates or ribbed plates, diamond marked Telefunkens in original or white boxes. These very much sought after tube has outstanding sonics, are quality built and will last almost forever.. Ulm or Berlin factory.

Mullard ECC83
17 mm long grey plates. New Old Stock in original or white boxes. Excellent tube.

I suppose some of this tubes are very expenssive. but any how what price is a total bargin and at what point he is robbing me.

Power tubes:
Telefunken EL34, june 1970
A matched pair of Telefunken EL34, 2 round holes in plate, double O getter, winged heatsink type.

Emitrade KT66 (Genalex KT66)
Two NOS Emitrade KT66 from the 50´s.

Philips EL34
Three of the tubes are labelled Mullard but they are all made by Philips. Datecodes are SYO 55C, SYO 55D, SYO 55D and SYO 57A. Three from 1955 and one from 1957

Mullard EL34
Two matched pair of this rather rare tube. Three of the tubes are from 1961 and the fourth from 1960. Datecodes are B1H1, B1C1, B1C1 and B0J5. Tube type is xf1 

Mullard EL34
Two matched pair of xf4

Mullard EL34
A perfect pair of slightly used Mullard xf2, single O getter, measures as new.
Datecode B2F3. For this ones he want 180-200 usd

Telefunken EL34
This matched quad are real Telefunken. Made in Ulm the 15th of June 1970,

And som new ones if I understand right
RFT EL34 labelled "Telefunken"
This matched quad is not the real deal, but a good deal. They are Telefunken labelled RFT tubes from former East-Germany or DDR. It´s a good tube compared to much of todays new production. 

Same quistion what should i go for?? I what should the dollar be?

Editing my self just got some prices from the seller: Swedish Kronor 8 kr -1 USD or rather 100 USD is 752 Swedish kroner

Philips marked Mullard ECC83 mid 60:s för 800:-/for one that is 100 USD
As alternativ to Mullard ECC83 NOS Brimar CV4004/E83CC Pris 600:-/st 75 USD eatch
RCA 6681/12AX7A alt. RCA 12AX7A 500:-/st around 62 USD for one
Siemens, Sylvania och Telefunken around the same price

Siemens marked Ei ECC83 från 80:s för 300:-/st Around 38 USD for one
Zaerix marked Tungsram ECC83 for 350:-/st around 40 UDS for one

Mullard EL34 xf2 kod från 1970,
hardly not used, bad logos 1700-2000:- 215-250 USD for the pair
Alternativt one pair of NOS Mullard i original packing, med Philips logo typ, 
xf4, same price.
one more alternativ is one pair of RFT EL34 för 900:-/par. Around 120 for the pair. he says that RFT valves is liked by
Marshall-owners.

So:
A, is this good prices?

B, I want a realy crunchy fat sound, ni icky picky, what tubes should i go for to my Marshall 1973 year JMP 50w lead 1987
i also want to by a second/reserv Nos stock tube line to the amp, just in case.



P


----------



## USSR

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> You need to put them on a hosting site, if you have some server space you can do it like that and link to them, if not you can upload them to a site like photobucket and link to them like that. Ive just noticed that if you go into the user control panel on this site you can aupload a pictures there.



Ok Thanks!


----------



## Darrenw5094

Any pros got a view on this set on ebay. Item number 390023519231 in case the link does not load for you.

eBay.ie: Dynaco ST70 Premium Tubes Set GZ34/7199/EL34 ST-70 NOS (item 390023519231 end time 08-Mar-10 02:28:50 GMT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darrenw5094 said:


> Any pros got a view on this set on ebay. Item number 390023519231 in case the link does not load for you.
> 
> eBay.ie: Dynaco ST70 Premium Tubes Set GZ34/7199/EL34 ST-70 NOS (item 390023519231 end time 08-Mar-10 02:28:50 GMT)



Maybe RATT will chime in. If you can sell the GZ34 and the two 7199's, then it boils down to this. Westinghouse did not make a 6CA7 or an EL34. Only GE and Sylvania made the 6CA7. If my memory serve me right, these could be Mullard xf4's, as Westinghouse imported Mullard power tubes. Generally, when the tube is listed as a 6CA7/EL34, it is the normal EL34 type tube. That is why I feel at the very least, they are RFT's. This has me thinking all sorts of things. Number one: "Why no pictures?" Does it say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube? My gut tells me they are imported tubes. If you can get the whole lot for $200 it might be worth the gamble. 

This seller has sold "thousands" of tubes. I'm just curious about why no pictures.


----------



## RiverRatt

From the auction:

"NOTE: WE HAVE MANY SETS OF THESE TUBES AND THE ONES YOU RECEIVE MAY NOT BE IN THE SAME BOXES OR BE THE SAME MANUFACTURERS AS ILLUSTRATED IN THE PICTURE, BUT THEY HAVE ALL BEEN TESTED TO THE HIGHEST STANDARDS ON OUR TUBE TESTER. EQUIVALENT PERFORMANCE RESULTS IN YOUR TUBE TESTER OR IN YOUR AMPLIFIER CANNOT BE GUARANTEED DUE TO VARIATIONS IN EQUIPMENT AND CALIBRATION BEYOND OUR CONTROL. WE USE PROCOMM, EI AND WESTINGHOUSE TUBE BOXES ONLY FOR ILLUSTRATION OF THE TUBE TYPES AND QUANTITIES IN A TUBE SET."

With a disclaimer like that, I'm guessing that these aren't old tubes, just tubes in old boxes. There's no guarantee that you'll even get Westinghouse boxes.


----------



## Darrenw5094

RiverRatt said:


> With a disclaimer like that, I'm guessing that these aren't old tubes, just tubes in old boxes. There's no guarantee that you'll even get Westinghouse boxes.



Feedback from pissed buyer who bought Fender Deluxe Blackface Reverb Premium Tube Set AB763

From the buyer:

Seller put cheap new production chinese tubes in Westinghouse and Procomm boxes.

Reply from seller:

Auction says boxes are for illustration only - full refund given per guarantee


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I've seen this guy's posts on ebay and I'd never buy from him..."you may not get what we are showing you??????" give me a break.
Anybody want to buy a new Ferrari 599? (it may look different than the picture and may come with a Honda Civic engine and 13" wheels)


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm getting my little Blackheart 5 watt head ready to sell. Here are a few tube observations I made while deciding what tubes to include with it:

Sovtek CP EL84/6BQ5: Sounded like I had changed out the speaker for a broken one. 

JJ EL84: Sounded better but lacked dynamics and headroom.

Shugang EL84: Best of the CP tubes in this amp. Not as lifeless as the JJ and Sovtek. Actually sounded pretty close to the Sylvania but not quite as warm.

Sylvania/GE 6BQ5: Good,all-around tube. No real strong points but no weaknesses either, except maybe low headroom. I rescued this tube from a TV that had been sitting in a barn for 40 years. I was amazed that it worked, much less sounded good.

Amperex Bugle Boy EL84/6BQ5: Sweet tube with nice, liquid sustain when pushed hard.

Saratov 6P14P: Most headroom of all the tubes I tried. Nice crunchy breakup with a classic chimey EL84 sound. Noticeably boosted the output of the amp. Definitely the winner.


----------



## skeezix

30stringsandblackdog said:


> These are the RFTs that came in my Super Lead 100



Good afternoon, Gents -and lady, now- (well, it's afternoon as I type this....).
Hope you folks can help me with an ID. A friend gave me a pair of used EL34's (they were to 'nasally' for him; he preferred his new Ehx's. Whatever. I think they sound GREAT). At any rate, they have NO markings of any kind on them, no writing, no etching, nothing stamped in the base, nada. I can't get any pix up right now, 'cause I'm waiting for the NiCads to recharge. So.... They have a slight dimple top, no seams, a single 'O' getter, two square vents in the plates, and four square holes on the outer seams, where they are crimped, not welded. Black base. The *only* marks on these are a 3-digit mfr number on the bottom of the base, near the pins. I believe that would simply be a mold number for the base, though. They look (to my eye) EXACTLY like these, minus the printing on the base, of course... Can I assume these are RFT's? Or might they be something else?

They were already in dude's 2204 when he bought it two years, have withstood plenty of use while he's owned it... and they still sound raging: smooth and raw at the same time. Very nice.


----------



## RiverRatt

Go back and look at page 16 at my pic of the Russian tube. It also has a dimple, but has copper grid posts and a taller base. Marty says there are Russian copies that are closer than this one as well, so it's going to be hard to be 100% sure without a few photos. The bottom of the base around the pins should be smooth, with a slightly raised rim along the outside edge. You can see what I mean on blackdog's tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the Sylvania/GE 6BQ5. It has the GE stenciled tube name with dots below it - kinda hard to see in the photo. You can faintly see the remains of a Philco label on the tube. Anyone have any ideas how old it is? 40 years was just a guess.


----------



## MartyStrat54

At one time Philco was huge. They even made appliances. However, they went away quickly. Maybe a mismanagement issue. I would say at a minimum the tube is 40 years old.


----------



## racko7566

Oh.....My.....God........

AMPEREX EL34 6CA7 METAL BASE NOS TUBES MULLARD PHILIPS - eBay (item 140385445436 end time Mar-03-10 18:15:11 PST)


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Oh.....My.....God........
> 
> AMPEREX EL34 6CA7 METAL BASE NOS TUBES MULLARD PHILIPS - eBay (item 140385445436 end time Mar-03-10 18:15:11 PST)



Somebody pony up on these so we can have a first hand report on how they sound.

Friggoni!


----------



## RiverRatt

That's not a quad of power tubes, that's an investment. Can you imagine throwing the switch on a quad of $1,000 tubes? I don't think I could do it.

Hey, they had a baby... wonder if I can get $200 for it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RACKO-Those are made to Mullard xf1 specs. They are basically Mullards built by Amperex. They are also very similar to the original Telefunken EL34. If they have a metal base, they are made in the mid 50's. I'll bet these go for $350 a tube.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Just wanted to drop in on this other tube thread. I have to make the rounds. Looks like over here it's all about power. 

I run the RFT's, but I'm thinking about going with something different in my 2204. I talked to Marty and he runs a lot of different tubes, but he has 6CA7's (I had it written down) in several of his amps. I know he said these are USA EL34's. What is your opinion on them? What about KT77's? I really want to stay away from new stuff, because I just don't like it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most modern high gain amps, you get your distortion from the preamp. On an amp like the 2204, you have to try other approaches. First, you need to stick a very nice high gain tube in V1 and then another in V2. If I remember right, V2A is your third and final gain stage. This will allow you to get some serious crunch out of the amp. 6CA7 tubes are what I call, clean high powered tubes. They want to be pushed really hard. They would probably work okay in your 50 watt amp. All you can do is try them and see if it is something you want to go with.

There really isn't a lot to choose from for NOS power tubes. I lucked out and got a pair of xf2 Mullards and I also have a pair of xf4's. However, you can spend $200 or more for a pair. The RFT's are the best bargain, but you have to make sure you are getting A stock tubes. There are a bunch of B stock on the market and you need to watch out for statements like, "Not for plate voltage in excess of 450V." 

If you come across some tubes that you are interested in, you can get a hold of me for an evaluation. Also, Joe (SolarBurn) and Alan (River Ratt) can help you out with any immediate questions.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Might have been asked here many times, but can anyone confirm that the stock Marshall EL34's are really SED winged Svetlana's??
I just ordered a quad of SED Wings for my brand new second hand JVM. Lol.

I assumed that they were Sovtek.


----------



## RiverRatt

AFAIK, the current EL34s are relabeled SED Winged Cs. I've seen Marshall EL34s from a few years ago that were Chinese EL34Bs, too. Post a photo and I can tell you for sure.


----------



## core

Ok so after a month I finally got those RFT valves in from Germany. My PO never gave me a notice that they came in on Feb. 8th and never decided to redeliver. Damn them! Anyway they look nice! I'll post pics later.

They are claimed to be matched but is there a way to tell from the original numbers on the box? Can I hook them up to the Weber Bias Rite and get a reading to tell me if they match?


----------



## core

skeezix said:


> Good afternoon, Gents -and lady, now- (well, it's afternoon as I type this....).
> Hope you folks can help me with an ID. A friend gave me a pair of used EL34's (they were to 'nasally' for him; he preferred his new Ehx's. Whatever. I think they sound GREAT). At any rate, they have NO markings of any kind on them, no writing, no etching, nothing stamped in the base, nada. I can't get any pix up right now, 'cause I'm waiting for the NiCads to recharge. So.... They have a slight dimple top, no seams, a single 'O' getter, two square vents in the plates, and four square holes on the outer seams, where they are crimped, not welded. Black base. The *only* marks on these are a 3-digit mfr number on the bottom of the base, near the pins. I believe that would simply be a mold number for the base, though. They look (to my eye) EXACTLY like these, minus the printing on the base, of course... Can I assume these are RFT's? Or might they be something else?
> 
> They were already in dude's 2204 when he bought it two years, have withstood plenty of use while he's owned it... and they still sound raging: smooth and raw at the same time. Very nice.



From initial glance the construction on the inside looks very similar to the RFT's I just picked up but like preamp valves I'm sure a lot of valves are made in a similar way but labeled with different brand names so it may be hard to tell.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If it has the dimple top, it can either be an RFT or an early Russian made copy.


----------



## core

skeezix said:


> Good afternoon, Gents -and lady, now- (well, it's afternoon as I type this....).
> Hope you folks can help me with an ID. A friend gave me a pair of used EL34's (they were to 'nasally' for him; he preferred his new Ehx's. Whatever. I think they sound GREAT). At any rate, they have NO markings of any kind on them, no writing, no etching, nothing stamped in the base, nada. I can't get any pix up right now, 'cause I'm waiting for the NiCads to recharge. So.... They have a slight dimple top, no seams, a single 'O' getter, two square vents in the plates, and four square holes on the outer seams, where they are crimped, not welded. Black base. The *only* marks on these are a 3-digit mfr number on the bottom of the base, near the pins. I believe that would simply be a mold number for the base, though. They look (to my eye) EXACTLY like these, minus the printing on the base, of course... Can I assume these are RFT's? Or might they be something else?
> 
> They were already in dude's 2204 when he bought it two years, have withstood plenty of use while he's owned it... and they still sound raging: smooth and raw at the same time. Very nice.



Ok after looking closely at my RFT's they appear to be exactly like the picture in your reply minus the lettering on the base. I also have a 3 digit number on the bottom near the pins (256) so it could be RFT or what Marty suggested as maybe a copy. So as the wife comes home I'll be able to locate the camera and throw up a pic.

BTW Marty the numbers on the 4 boxes say:
EL 34
203 012
TGL 9649
EVP 19,40

Would this indicate a matching set?


----------



## dave999z

I just bought an EL34 50/50 rack power amp on eBay. It's in good shape, but I don't know how much life the tubes will have.

For when I replace the tubes... Could someone tell me what tubes come "stock" in this power amp? Are those available? If not, what are the closest tubes I could get to the ones that come stock in this power amp?

Thanks!


----------



## core

Marshall used a few different valve manufacturers over the years Tesla, Svetlana, Sovtek, Mullard for example but any top EL34 would work for this amp. Tung Sol, RFT, and Winged =C= are some of the better ones out there now. There is old stock available out there if you hunt around. The RFT's like I have above are NOS from the 70's and have been deemed a good buy currently for older valves. Ebay is a good place to start for NOS.

Here's a great review page on different EL34's EL34 Tube Type Review
Their top three are:
Tung Sol
Siemens / RFT
Svetlana ( St. Petersburg factory not the current production I believe )


----------



## MartyStrat54

CORE-Dude, did you have the boxes? And I don't recall reading anyplace where you said the tubes had RFT printed on them. That's a real good indicator that the tubes are RFT.

So a buddy didn't like these in his 2204? That's odd. Anyway, like Joe said to the girl on the Boob thread, "You got a nice pair."

(I guess it was that late post with the picture. Dead giveaway.)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> CORE-That's odd. Anyway, like Joe said to the girl on the Boob thread, "You got a nice pair."



Joe, Joe, Joe. Let me guess, in a rib place you say, "Nice rack?" I'm starting to worry about you. 





Just kidding.


----------



## Darrenw5094

What is the maximum safe bias figure for power valves?
The stock Marshall EL34's on my JVM are SED Winged C's.
I remember Bob @ eurotubes talking about 45mv, but most members suggest 35 to 40.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello, I'm just out and about. I know that nobody's home right now. I'm sure one of the guys will be able to answer you question, although on my DSL, I run at 42mV.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> CORE-Dude, did you have the boxes? And I don't recall reading anyplace where you said the tubes had RFT printed on them. That's a real good indicator that the tubes are RFT.
> 
> So a buddy didn't like these in his 2204? That's odd. Anyway, like Joe said to the girl on the Boob thread, "You got a nice pair."
> 
> (I guess it was that late post with the picture. Dead giveaway.)



I may be wrong in what you're getting at  but I was giving Skeezix info on the tubes he may have thought were RFT in his original post last page. I think his buddy didn't like them haha.

I know I didn't smoke that much pot back in HIGH school


----------



## core

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Joe, Joe, Joe. Let me guess, in a rib place you say, "Nice rack?" I'm starting to worry about you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just kidding.



That's what she said...


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> I know I didn't smoke that much pot back in HIGH school



Well that's the problem...I did.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that's the problem...I did.



Puff Puff Pass...


----------



## Darrenw5094

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello, I'm just out and about. I know that nobody's home right now. I'm sure one of the guys will be able to answer you question, although on my DSL, I run at 42mV.



Thanks for that. My Q seemed to get bypassed there. But anyway, mine was @ 39mV with the Winged C's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dang, everybody's drunk in the preamp thread and stoned over here. I feel like I missed the party!

Biasing seems to be on a lot of people's minds lately. I was running my RFTs at 42mV and just for shits and giggles I bumped them up to 45 last week. I think I'm going to have to bring them back down. The tone's a little too fizzy. 

I'm really impressed by how steady the RFTs are. It's been quite awhile since I checked the bias and they were within a few tenths of where I left them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's that fine East German engineering that brought you tubes labeled, "Made in Gt. Britain" and sold in an RCA box that said, "MADE IN THE USA."


----------



## RiverRatt

A picture I took of a pair of GT/Fender/Sovtek 5881s in action.






Marty, I thought I'd get lucky with the 6L6s but they are running too hot. Is it normal for one to flash blue when you power up?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know about that. It doesn't sound right. If the stock tubes are working fine, then there must be something wrong with one of the GC's. I tested those before packing them. Didn't they test like 86-87? If there had been gas or a short, it would have caught that. 

And are you saying that the bias is off on the GC's? That could be so.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those are the stock 5881 tubes in the picture just to clarify. I thought the blue arcs were cool. It was almost completely dark and the camera was having a hard time catching it though. The 6L6GC didn't have the blue arcs like that - it was just like one quick blue flash when I flipped the power switch.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe that is normal for those tubes. I thought you meant only one flashed a blue light. I'm sure they are fine. Those 5881's look like they are getting worn out and gassy.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Matched quad of Philips EL34's on ebay. Item #280424097039
EL34 PHILIPS ECG output tubes (NOS) - matched quad! - eBay (item 280424097039 end time Apr-14-10 11:07:20 PDT)

Anyone got a view on those please.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darrenw5094 said:


> Matched quad of Philips EL34's on ebay. Item #280424097039
> EL34 PHILIPS ECG output tubes (NOS) - matched quad! - eBay (item 280424097039 end time Apr-14-10 11:07:20 PDT)
> 
> Anyone got a view on those please.



I don't like the $29 shipping, but it is an international seller. Actually, I think he is wrong. I don't think the tubes were made in Asia. I would say they were made in the USA. He states he got them around 1980 and Philips ECG was in business until 1988. The blue ink lettering was used on USA tubes. So if you are getting a matched quad for about $185, I would say that is a good deal.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought Russian when I saw them. Did US tubes use those spacers on the mica?

Got the 6L6s safe and sound today. I'll let you know how they work out.


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> I don't like the $29 shipping, but it is an international seller. Actually, I think he is wrong. I don't think the tubes were made in Asia. I would say they were made in the USA. He states he got them around 1980 and Philips ECG was in business until 1988. The blue ink lettering was used on USA tubes. So if you are getting a matched quad for about $185, I would say that is a good deal.



I thought they might be. What would be all the advatages of these compared to CP Winged C's or other CP brands?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

The ECG box is similar to one of my Sylvania Fat Boys


----------



## MartyStrat54

You keep showing them and I am going to get a TooB BoneR.

I just think it is odd that it doesn't say, "USA" on the tubes or the boxes.

If a tube wasn't made in the USA, it would say, "Country of origin printed on tube," on the box.


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> You keep showing them and I am going to get a TooB BoneR.
> 
> I just think it is odd that it doesn't say, "USA" on the tubes or the boxes.
> 
> If a tube wasn't made in the USA, it would say, "Country of origin printed on tube," on the box.



Is there a tube website that i could compare them with?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well what makes this tough is that by 1980, Philips had sold off most of its assets and bought Sylvania and their Communication Group. Philips changed the name to Philips ECG. Now in America, they made tubes in the Sylvania plant until 1987 or 1988. However, there was nothing to stop them from acquiring tubes from other sources and using their boxes. This seems to be a scheme that several companies got involved in. The old tube box switcharoo trick.

Joe could be right. They might be Ruskie tubes. The suspicious part is that if they were made in USA, the seller would be jumping all over that in his listing.

Did Philips break down and buy Ruskie tubes? Stranger things have happened.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, the GE 6L6's sound great! Best of all, they are running a little cooler than the 5881s. I've got this little cricket noise that I have to get figured out. Nothing seems microphonic and I've replaced every preamp tube, but certain notes still cause it every time. One preamp tube socket is a little loose - I may end up having to replacing it. I guess a 4x10 combo is going to rattle a little. Killer tone, though. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Super...fantastic.

I'm glad that they found a good home.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Oh, so the amp news was over here. Did you get some tubes from Marty for you Fender? Sounds like some old GE's? What do they sound like?

That's a nice looking amp you have. Sounds like you are getting it all tweaked out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Oh, so the amp news was over here. Did you get some tubes from Marty for you Fender? Sounds like some old GE's? What do they sound like?
> 
> That's a nice looking amp you have. Sounds like you are getting it all tweaked out.



Yeah, I scored some nice old GE side getter 6L6's and they found a proper home with Alan. I was glad that he needed a pair. Nothing like an old GE power tube to warm a man's heart.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When did the "cricket" noise start? Is it a chirping noise? Let me know what you find out.


----------



## thegaindeli

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, the GE 6L6's sound great! Best of all, they are running a little cooler than the 5881s. I've got this little cricket noise that I have to get figured out. Nothing seems microphonic and I've replaced every preamp tube, but certain notes still cause it every time. One preamp tube socket is a little loose - I may end up having to replacing it. I guess a 4x10 combo is going to rattle a little. Killer tone, though. Thanks!


Check the power-tubes too. Sometimes they work themselves loose at the base. They'll still operate just fine - but they can cause some strange noises... 

If you do find a loose one - smear some RTV red silicon between the tube and the base. Let dry - and rock out!


----------



## RiverRatt

I just posted over at the preamp thread - I found the problem. I cranked the amp up louder thinking that the problem would get worse if it was a tube, correct? I couldn't even hear it anymore. I finally figured out that one of the tilt-back legs was rattling. It sounded just like a preamp tube starting to go bad. The GE tubes don't have hardly as much output as the 5881s and they aren't as harsh, so I've been playing louder. I never noticed the rattle with the Sovteks in there.

thegaindeli, I was determined that it wasn't going to be the new GE's. No way. I've never heard of the silicon trick, either. I may try that anyway. If you've ever had a Fender combo with big power tubes, you know the sound of a tube that's worked itself loose and is rattling all to be damned. I actually picked up a Princeton Reverb that way for $100. The guy who brought it in said it was messed up and wanted to trade it in. I told him that it was just that the tubes were loose and he said he was through f_cking with it and wanted a solid state amp. I traded him a Roland Cube that I had at the store on consignment. He asked for it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the GE 6L6s have that strange blue glow, too, but not as bad as that picture I posted of the 5881s. Is the amp causing this, and is it something I need to have checked out? The bias is rock steady at around 30mV.


----------



## thegaindeli

Good to hear it's nothing major.

I think the blue glow has something to do with electrons hitting the glass? I really like the look of it! If you put your finger on the tube, you'll see the electrons (blue) migrate toward your finger. I've only seen this with 6L6 tubes though... 

Maybe someone with technical knowledge could chime in?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, check Pin 6. That's the pin responsible for blue glow. It might be wide open and allowing blue gases to build up. Last time I had blue gases, my second wife asked that I leave the house.

First question? 5881's are only rated at 25/28 watts. The GE's are rated at 30 watts, so as you have discovered, they should be running cooler. Bear in mind that the GE's are only going to make the power dictated by the power supply. 

Is this amp advertised as a 50 watt or a 60 watt amp? I ask, because the schematic you sent me showed the amp with 6L6GC's, but I believe the owners manual listed the tubes as 5881's. 

Now I can't remember what the B+ was, so I'll say 470 as that sounds close.

Taking the 30 watt tube and reducing it to a 25 watt tube, we get this:

25 x .7 divided by 470 = 37mA. If you are running them at 30 you can take them up a bit.

Don't worry about the blue glow. It's okay.


----------



## RiverRatt

The owner's manual and the tube chart both show 6L6/5881. You're right about the schematic, it only shows 6L6s. The amp is rated at 60 watts. I think most of the older Fender amps ran at around 40 with 2 6L6s. I do like the 6V6s much better than the 5881s. The tone sounds more rounded and old school Fender.

B+ is shown as 480v on the schematic.

About the max dissipation... I was reading up on some old tubes, and some brands of 6L6 were rated at 25w and some were listed as 30. I don't remember which brands were rated at 30 - I'll see if I can dig it up again.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I just posted over at the preamp thread - I found the problem. I cranked the amp up louder thinking that the problem would get worse if it was a tube, correct? I couldn't even hear it anymore. I finally figured out that one of the tilt-back legs was rattling. It sounded just like a preamp tube starting to go bad. The GE tubes don't have hardly as much output as the 5881s and they aren't as harsh, so I've been playing louder. I never noticed the rattle with the Sovteks in there.
> 
> thegaindeli, I was determined that it wasn't going to be the new GE's. No way. I've never heard of the silicon trick, either. I may try that anyway. If you've ever had a Fender combo with big power tubes, you know the sound of a tube that's worked itself loose and is rattling all to be damned. I actually picked up a Princeton Reverb that way for $100. The guy who brought it in said it was messed up and wanted to trade it in. I told him that it was just that the tubes were loose and he said he was through f_cking with it and wanted a solid state amp. I traded him a Roland Cube that I had at the store on consignment. He asked for it.



I had this happen to me with the Monza. At first I thought it was one of the 112 speakers so I tried another 112 cab/speaker. Then I ran my Night Train through the speakers and didn't get the same noise. So I tried some tube rolling to see if that was it and no again. Finally I pinned it down to the baseboard heater in my room which the speaker is facing. Now at low volume I can make out noises from the BB. Its easy to distinguish but at high volume it actually gets this high vibration scream but only with the Monza. It has a much healthier low end on it compared to the NT so it was actually causing the metal inside to vibrate and scream at certain volume levels. Thank goodness it wasn't the bloody amp. This took me a couple days to figure out by the way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In the 6L6 family, a lot of the older tubes that came after the metal can 6L6 were 22 watt tubes, such as the GA and GB. The 5881 is also known as a 6L6WGB and it is rated at 25-28 watts. The much later 6L6GC was very powerful for its time and was rated as 30 watts. Finally, the 6550 came out. It was just an enlarged 6L6GC and was rated at 35 watts. (Of course with the right applied voltages, you can get more power out of these tubes, such as 50 watts with a 6550).

If your amp is rated at 60 watts, then that is derived from running 6L6GC's and if that is the case, then you must revise your math on the dissipation formula to reflect a 30 watt tube. At 480 volts, the 70% bias is 43mA. Run them up at around 40 and you should see the power then.


----------



## thrawn86

Just an update with my new valve compliment....

Everything was great, and then I heard a fizzing, light crackling noise from the speaker. First inclination is that it's my Les Paul's 3 way switch, since it needs a cleaning and isn't proper at the moment. Check it....not that. I unplug my cable....sound is still there. So I gently tap my power tubes with my pick, and there it is......fizzing, cracking, etc. So I pulled it out of the combo and onto my bench and took a look at the socket prongs, and a few were sort of hogged out. Gently bent them back together, reinstalled the valves, fired everything back up and voila! Hiss/scratch/fizz/crackle is gone....non exististant!

If it weren't for the awesome people on this forum, I'd never have known where to look. Props to all my homies, pour out a lil' liquor for my main man Les PZall, outie 5000 G. Word.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would have hated to hear that one of the Mullard EL84's had dumped on you. That would be major suck azz.

But alas, all is well in 401ville.


----------



## thrawn86

Yeah, no probs as of yet.......


----------



## thrawn86

Still considering a backup set of CP's for the Mullards and for my Ei's. Maybe some Mullard RI's.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Good to hear that everybody solved their problems. Alan, I probably would have never checked the cabinet hardware. Now I know it can be a problem. 

And Thrawn, I'm glad all you had to do was straighten out some pins.

You guys did good.


----------



## thegaindeli

MartyStrat54 said:


> In the 6L6 family, a lot of the older tubes that came after the metal can 6L6 were 22 watt tubes, such as the GA and GB. The 5881 is also known as a 6L6WGB and it is rated at 25-28 watts. The much later 6L6GC was very powerful for its time and was rated as 30 watts. Finally, the 6550 came out. It was just an enlarged 6L6GC and was rated at 35 watts. (Of course with the right applied voltages, you can get more power out of these tubes, such as 50 watts with a 6550).
> 
> If your amp is rated at 60 watts, then that is derived from running 6L6GC's and if that is the case, then you must revise your math on the dissipation formula to reflect a 30 watt tube. At 480 volts, the 70% bias is 43mA. Run them up at around 40 and you should see the power then.


I'm wondering if you can put 6550 tubes into a 6L6 based amp? My Super Lead was loaded with 6550's when I bought it - but I changed it back to EL34's. It's a 1972, so I wasn't sure if it came with 6550's originally or not? None of the rigging was changed in terms of the NFB to 8 ohm tap... It just had a resistor connected in parallel with another resistor - so I removed it. The 6550's made the amp even louder than it is with EL34's! It was a big - loud - clean sounding Marshall. Was kind of cool actually. I'm selling my 1972 SLP on evilbay, and I think I may be making a big mistake. Just can't afford to keep everything.

My Cornford (which is built off the Marshall 1959SLP circuit) has a switch for EL34/6L6. If the amp will handle 6550's, I'd really like to try them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a 6V6, 6L6 and 6550 all have the same construction and PIN OUT. Can you stick a 6550 in a 6L6 socket? Yes, but I don't know if the plate-to-plate load on the OPT is the same. We went through this before.

I will say that even if you could run them, you are reducing them down to a 25 watt tube. They are not going to sound the same as if they were in an amp with a more powerful power section. When Marshall subbed them in their amps they had 100 watt power sections pushing the 6550's. So the sound you remember is that sound. Now take a well built amp with a massive, two rail power section and you can get 100 watts out of two tubes. That amp would sound much different than a subdued amp.


----------



## core

thegaindeli said:


> Good to hear it's nothing major.
> 
> I think the blue glow has something to do with electrons hitting the glass? I really like the look of it! If you put your finger on the tube, you'll see the electrons (blue) migrate toward your finger. I've only seen this with 6L6 tubes though...
> 
> Maybe someone with technical knowledge could chime in?



Yep from what Marty says the blue glow is ok. From what I've learned some tubes have it and some don't depending on manufacturing elements and procedures I believe. Both of my 6L6 amps had a nice blue glow around the central part of the glass area but my EL34 JCM 900 has some blue glow coming out of the metal parts within the tube but not on the glass.

From what I've also learned from my local amp tech is you don't want to see this coming from the base of the valve around where the metal pins go through the glass as this may indicate a possible vacuum leak. Again just going off of what my local tech is stating.


----------



## thegaindeli

I guess I'm better off leaving it as it is then.
It seems like the 6L6 is just better for clean tones - and EL34's are better for distortion tones. That's the way I hear it anyway. Finding a good balance between the two has been impossible for me, so I've been using two amps. I see a lot of big name players using multiple amps... 
Joe Perry had like 4 different amps on-stage at the Hard Rock Cafe!


----------



## thegaindeli

core said:


> Yep from what Marty says the blue glow is ok. From what I've learned some tubes have it and some don't depending on manufacturing elements and procedures I believe. Both of my 6L6 amps had a nice blue glow around the central part of the glass area but my EL34 JCM 900 has some blue glow coming out of the metal parts within the tube but not on the glass.
> 
> From what I've also learned from my local amp tech is you don't want to see this coming from the base of the valve around where the metal pins go through the glass as this may indicate a possible vacuum leak. Again just going off of what my local tech is stating.


I love the vibe of the blue glow! I have a set of Golden Dragon 6L6 tubes in my MK50II - but no blue glow...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The glow is caused by the interaction of electrons with inert gasses such as Argon. If you took chemistry, you will know that every gas, when excited will put off some sort of "colored" glow. Now as far as RATT's 5881's, they probably didn't have that great of a vacuum and the getter material is not as good as it used to be. This all adds up to a blue glow. When a tube gets old and the getter is worn, then the gasses in the tube that were under control are now able to roam about the tube. (That's how important a good getter is.) This too will cause the blue glow.

If you ever see the start of milky white traces in the tube. Stop using the amp immediately and get a new set of tubes. White inside of a tube means outside air is getting into the tube.

Just remember that NOS tubes had a superior vacuum pulled on the tubes and the barium getters were the best in the industry. This means a very tight and almost gas free tube. There is always going to be some gas, but the more you get out, the less harder the getter has to work and the longer it will last.


----------



## MM54

core said:


> ... but my EL34 JCM 900 has some blue glow coming out of the metal parts within the tube but not on the glass.
> ...




Yeah, same with me, there isn't ANY blue glow from anywhere in the tubes unless you look at the right angle (to presumably between the plates, it's inside the box-like thing), then it's quite intense, but only right there. I don't really get it


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's normal and it means the tube has a good vacuum on it. You are going to get a little bit of action between the anode and the plate. You can't pull a perfect vacuum. That's why tubes have getters. Getters are what causes the silver mirror flashing on the tubes. When the tube is made, the getter is activated and this is a one time deal. When it is activated, it splatters the barium compound on the inside glass of the tube. In a ways, it works like Rolaids. It slowly absorbs excess gas during the life of the tube.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> In a ways, it works like Rolaids. It slowly absorbs excess gas during the life of the tube.



That may be one of the greatest comparisons I've ever heard.


----------



## Darrenw5094

thegaindeli said:


> I guess I'm better off leaving it as it is then.
> It seems like the 6L6 is just better for clean tones - and EL34's are better for distortion tones. That's the way I hear it anyway. Finding a good balance between the two has been impossible for me, so I've been using two amps.



KT77's are in between 6L6 and EL34's. But you would have to get the amp modded for EL34's.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Still considering a backup set of CP's for the Mullards and for my Ei's. Maybe some Mullard RI's.



If you try the Mullard RI's let me know what you think. I'm wondering...


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I've still got some noise to work out in the amp. I'm still getting a little noise on certain notes, like B is really bad. Through much trial and error, I found that pushing one of the 6L6s into the socket stopped the ringing. I took the amp way apart and tightened everything relating to that socket, which is now rock solid, but the tube will still rock from side to side a little in the socket. I may have to try that silicon trick.

Marty asked about the plate voltage earlier. While I was in the amp poking around I took a reading. It's running at 498v.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I've still got some noise to work out in the amp. I'm still getting a little noise on certain notes, like B is really bad. Through much trial and error, I found that pushing one of the 6L6s into the socket stopped the ringing. I took the amp way apart and tightened everything relating to that socket, which is now rock solid, but the tube will still rock from side to side a little in the socket. I may have to try that silicon trick.
> 
> Marty asked about the plate voltage earlier. While I was in the amp poking around I took a reading. It's running at 498v.



What kind of noise Alan? Squeal, rattle, fuzziness at the end of notes etc...


----------



## RiverRatt

It's only certain notes. Playing a B on the D-string 9th fret will rattle everything in the room. It's causing a pretty loud noise from one of the power tubes, but it doesn't seem like the tube itself. I described it as a cricket; that's not exactly it. It sounds like a glassy rattle. I think it's more to do with the socket than the tube, though. It's like that B is a resonant frequency for some part of the amp, probably the speaker baffle, and it vibrates the whole amp but especially the tubes. When it makes that noise, if I press that power tube into the socket, it goes away. I put a shim between the tube and the socket and it helped some - it doesn't wobble in the socket any more. I need to swap sockets with the power tubes and see if it stays on that socket.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Combo's are hard on the tubes, but with four speakers in the same cab, look out. You got a lot of stuff vibrating. I can't believe the power tube sockets are already that worn, but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's only certain notes. Playing a B on the D-string 9th fret will rattle everything in the room. It's causing a pretty loud noise from one of the power tubes, but it doesn't seem like the tube itself. I described it as a cricket; that's not exactly it. It sounds like a glassy rattle. I think it's more to do with the socket than the tube, though. It's like that B is a resonant frequency for some part of the amp, probably the speaker baffle, and it vibrates the whole amp but especially the tubes. When it makes that noise, if I press that power tube into the socket, it goes away. I put a shim between the tube and the socket and it helped some - it doesn't wobble in the socket any more. I need to swap sockets with the power tubes and see if it stays on that socket.



Sounds like you are pinpointing it which is good. It doesn't have a retainer I take it to help keep the tube in? Sounds like it can really generate some big vibrations which are going to really challenge your tubes. Keep us posted on how you find a solution. I'm interested.


----------



## thegaindeli

MartyStrat54 said:


> Combo's are hard on the tubes, but with four speakers in the same cab, look out. You got a lot of stuff vibrating. I can't believe the power tube sockets are already that worn, but maybe I'm wrong.


+1!
I discovered that vibration was causing my bias to drift. I put 4 x neoprene pads underneath the head - and viola! Problem solved.  I still need to change that trim pot I guess?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sounds like you are pinpointing it which is good. It doesn't have a retainer I take it to help keep the tube in? Sounds like it can really generate some big vibrations which are going to really challenge your tubes. Keep us posted on how you find a solution. I'm interested.



It's got those retainers like the DSL50 - the ones that are basically a metal ring that is bent up so it catches the base of the tube. They don't do much. I've been thinking about picking up some high-temp silicon O rings and trying them. A lot of people swear they work.


----------



## thegaindeli

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I've still got some noise to work out in the amp. I'm still getting a little noise on certain notes, like B is really bad. Through much trial and error, I found that pushing one of the 6L6s into the socket stopped the ringing. I took the amp way apart and tightened everything relating to that socket, which is now rock solid, but the tube will still rock from side to side a little in the socket. I may have to try that silicon trick.
> 
> Marty asked about the plate voltage earlier. While I was in the amp poking around I took a reading. It's running at 498v.


I'm wondering if the large filter caps would have anything to do with "ghost notes"? If that's what's happening? 

I was considering maybe replacing my stock 50x50 500v with the Sozo 100uf 350volt caps? I've been told that removing those 56k resistors off the top of the filter caps really opens up the overall sound of the amp - and gets rid of any weird "ghosting".


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's got those retainers like the DSL50 - the ones that are basically a metal ring that is bent up so it catches the base of the tube. They don't do much. I've been thinking about picking up some high-temp silicon O rings and trying them. A lot of people swear they work.



I've got spring retainers on the Vox and clip like for the Monza that grab hold of the whole tube. Even though the Monza is a head version it has the tubes hanging upside down hence the clips for the power tubes. My Rectifier tube has the bear trap that just holds the bottom like the DSL.

I was going to suggest those silicon rings but I lost my train of thought and forgot. I'd try them too. That will work for vibrations and then you just need some way of keeping the tube in the socket. You'll figure something out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah all of the O-rings I use are the dull orange high temp silicone models. I don't know if a black O-ring will last. You might have to put some better "bear trap" retainers on the chassis. They should bite at least halfway up the side of the tube base.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

thegaindeli said:


> I'm wondering if the large filter caps would have anything to do with "ghost notes"? If that's what's happening?
> 
> I was considering maybe replacing my stock 50x50 500v with the Sozo 100uf 350volt caps? I've been told that removing those 56k resistors off the top of the filter caps really opens up the overall sound of the amp - and gets rid of any weird "ghosting".



Actually, SMALLER value filter caps are what create ghosting. What happens is that once the amp is being pushed hard enough to tax the current supply of the filter caps, the DC ripple starts becoming audible and gets mixed into the guitar signal, which creates the ghosting effect. By using larger filter caps, you increase the current supply of the filtering circuit and as such the amp at full crank can't tax the current supply as much as it would by using lower filtering.

Also, you don't want to REMOVE the bleeder resistors. You can increase the value of them, but do not remove them. The bleeders on series wired filter caps serve to ensure that both capacitors are seeing exactly 1/2 of the power supply voltage. Without them there, one cap can go overvoltage and BOOM.

The reason the reservoir capacitors on 100 watters don't need them is because they are able to use the transformer's center tap as the 1/2 voltage reference to balance the voltage on these two caps.

Increasing the value of them may very well improve the ghosting a bit. Try like a 220K 2 watt or something along those lines. However, it may come at the price of regulation at the screen node but it may not have all that noticeable of an effect on that.


----------



## thegaindeli

Wilder Amplification said:


> Actually, SMALLER value filter caps are what create ghosting. What happens is that once the amp is being pushed hard enough to tax the current supply of the filter caps, the DC ripple starts becoming audible and gets mixed into the guitar signal, which creates the ghosting effect. By using larger filter caps, you increase the current supply of the filtering circuit and as such the amp at full crank can't tax the current supply as much as it would by using lower filtering.
> 
> Also, you don't want to REMOVE the bleeder resistors. You can increase the value of them, but do not remove them. The bleeders on series wired filter caps serve to ensure that both capacitors are seeing exactly 1/2 of the power supply voltage. Without them there, one cap can go overvoltage and BOOM.
> 
> The reason the reservoir capacitors on 100 watters don't need them is because they are able to use the transformer's center tap as the 1/2 voltage reference to balance the voltage on these two caps.
> 
> Increasing the value of them may very well improve the ghosting a bit. Try like a 220K 2 watt or something along those lines. However, it may come at the price of regulation at the screen node but it may not have all that noticeable of an effect on that.


Thank you! This is great information for sure. I never realized how much those caps have to do with the tone of the amp. I was told by someone that I should try lifting the legs of those resistors, and see if I like the sound? I'm of the mind that "they're there for a reason".

He also said that I should use the Sozo 100uf 350 volt caps instead of the 50x50 500 volt caps. I told him mine is a 72 100 watt - but he said it didn't matter. He said I would get a better sounding low-end, and better lower-mids? Again, my thinking is that Marshall used those for a reason.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Telefunken package on eBay located in Poland. Item #260571879335

eBay.ie: TELEFUNKEN EL34 ECC83 ECC808 1960's (item 260571879335 end time 03-Apr-10 00:20:49 BST)

2 EL34's and 12AX7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Tell me something about 6L6s. I've been reading about them, and I see the figure 410v as the maximum plate voltage. Other data shows a max of 500v. Another tip says that they don't need to be biased near 70% to sound good. 50% was recommended. This is the first dealing I've had with a 6L6 amp in a long time, and it seems like everywhere you look there's a different opinion.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

RiverRatt said:


> Tell me something about 6L6s. I've been reading about them, and I see the figure 410v as the maximum plate voltage. Other data shows a max of 500v. Another tip says that they don't need to be biased near 70% to sound good. 50% was recommended. This is the first dealing I've had with a 6L6 amp in a long time, and it seems like everywhere you look there's a different opinion.



Are you sure they spec'ed 410 as the "design maximum"? Or was that rating under the "typical operating characteristics"?

Every 6L6 datasheet I've seen has always spec'ed a 500V design maximum figure, which makes them non-suitable for use in a dual rail amp since running a lower screen voltage would reduce the gain of the valves almost to the point of unusable. Since every example circuit in the valve manual has always shown them ran from a single rail supply I'm thinking that that is how these valves were originally designed to be ran. What's funny about that is that Marshall copied Fender, and when they switched to EL34s they kept the single rail supply yet EL34s are more of a dual rail valve since their plate voltage is rated up around 800V yet their screen voltage rating is around 425-450...yet nobody payed attention to screen voltage when they spec'ed the plate voltage in their amps, and as such this runs the screens of EL34s very hard.

The 6550 was designed to be a more robust 6L6 with a higher plate voltage rating of 680V with a screen rating of 400-425V, which makes them better suited for dual rail operation.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

thegaindeli said:


> Thank you! This is great information for sure. I never realized how much those caps have to do with the tone of the amp. I was told by someone that I should try lifting the legs of those resistors, and see if I like the sound? I'm of the mind that "they're there for a reason".
> 
> He also said that I should use the Sozo 100uf 350 volt caps instead of the 50x50 500 volt caps. I told him mine is a 72 100 watt - but he said it didn't matter. He said I would get a better sounding low-end, and better lower-mids? Again, my thinking is that Marshall used those for a reason.



They did use them for a reason...that's what was available for the cheapest cost at the time.

Increasing the filtering will tighten up the low end and reduce the sag at high volumes, although I've ran stock '69 spec Super Leads at full crank with a power soak and have never noticed much sag really. Tighter filtering is really good for high gain amps that run loud though. But the only place in the power supply where this makes any difference at all is for the plate and screen filters since this is where all the current is being drawn. The phase inverter and preamp don't hardly draw anything at all so increasing filtering at the preamp and PI caps is a moot point. 

Basically if you run loud and notice some sag in the low end, increasing the filtering will tighten it up and reduce the sag. But the amp has to be at a volume where the power valves would be drawing enough current to tax the current supply of the filter caps to notice a difference...and the amp would have to have low enough filtering to allow the current demand of the power valves to tax the current supply of the filter caps in order to make any difference. If the amp's filtering is already stiff as it is you won't notice any at all. If the amp has DECENT filtering you may notice some difference but again there come's the point of diminishing returns.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wilder Amplification said:


> Are you sure they spec'ed 410 as the "design maximum"? Or was that rating under the "typical operating characteristics"?
> 
> Every 6L6 datasheet I've seen has always spec'ed a 500V design maximum figure, which makes them non-suitable for use in a dual rail amp since running a lower screen voltage would reduce the gain of the valves almost to the point of unusable. Since every example circuit in the valve manual has always shown them ran from a single rail supply I'm thinking that that is how these valves were originally designed to be ran. What's funny about that is that Marshall copied Fender, and when they switched to EL34s they kept the single rail supply yet EL34s are more of a dual rail valve since their plate voltage is rated up around 800V yet their screen voltage rating is around 425-450...yet nobody payed attention to screen voltage when they spec'ed the plate voltage in their amps, and as such this runs the screens of EL34s very hard.
> 
> The 6550 was designed to be a more robust 6L6 with a higher plate voltage rating of 680V with a screen rating of 400-425V, which makes them better suited for dual rail operation.



So my plate voltage reading of +498v isn't too high, correct?

How about the statement about biasing at 50% instead of 70%?


----------



## Wilder Amplification

RiverRatt said:


> So my plate voltage reading of +498v isn't too high, correct?
> 
> How about the statement about biasing at 50% instead of 70%?



Depends on the plate load. A pair of 6L6s at 450v calls for a plate load of 5.6K as per the data sheet. A quad of them would wanna see about 1/2 that at 2.8K. If the plate load were considerably lower than this (like say for instance running 6L6s on an OT with a plate load spec'ed for EL34s), I would consider either biasing colder or mismatching the load up one to get a higher reflected plate load.

From experience I will say that they don't NEED to be biased that hot to sound good. But this is subjective and something to be experimented with.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a pair of Realistic Lifetime MIJ 6L6GCs for cheap. I've read in various places online that Radio Shack relabeled some Russian and Chinese tubes as MIJ. Is there anything about these tubes that looks Russian or Chinese? They look like Sylvanias or GE's to me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like an American design made in Japan. I note the small getter flash. This seemed to be the norm for MIJ power tubes. Most USA tubes have a large getter flash.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found one German website that had a picture of those tubes. They called them RCAs. They were cheap, and at least I'll have a backup set other than those Russian 5881s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Made in Japan and called RCA? How did they pull that off?


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the site. My German isn't great. 

Die Geschichte der 6L6


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a translation. It is:

"and branded as Realistic Lifetime, from RCA came this 6L6 on the market:"

So I read it as bad English. They are saying that the two Realistic's are branded as such "and" the RCA is a separate entry that became available.

You know, you may have to try what has been suggested and that is some hard rubber mounts to isolate the chassis from the cab.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not worried about the noise. It's not hardly noticeable now. I just wanted some more 6L6s to play around with. I've had EL34 and EL84 amps for awhile now, but it's been awhile since I had a 6L6 amp. It's still a new toy.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's four reasons why Philips ECG should send up a red flag. And then there's the BIN of $155.50 plus $29 shipping?!?! Congratulations, you just spent $185 on $30 worth of tubes.

EL34 PHILIPS ECG output tubes (NOS) - matched quad! - eBay (item 280424097039 end time Apr-14-10 11:07:20 PDT)


----------



## Procter2812

Here's the EL84's (mullard?) i scored.

codes are KM4 ASH?

The one on the far right is a dud but ahh well.. not bad for 6.50!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That bad tube is a perfect example of how a getter flash will turn white when the tube gets cracked. It is probably cracked around a pin.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> That bad tube is a perfect example of how a getter flash will turn white when the tube gets cracked. It is probably cracked around a pin.



The guru is correct, yeah its cracked around the pin.

I think these give me an excuse to buy an EL84 based amp

You know if they are mullards for sure?


----------



## thrawn86

They look just like mine, only yours have the slot instead of the hole in the middle of the plate. I saw on a vintage Mullard ID site that same kind.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On the top they look like mini EL-34's. Solid double post getter.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a site with some good info on Philips EL84s.

Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> On the top they look like mini EL-34's. Solid double post getter.



Yeah, cant wait to get a Vox AC15
gonna stick a pair of these in with all NOS pre-amp tubes 
with a greenback speaker

Pure tone heaven


----------



## neal48

I have been getting mixed review on grove tubes (5885)s. What is the general feeling of these tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You mean 5881? If you have the room for a taller tube, I would go with a 6L6GC.


----------



## RiverRatt

+1. I have a set of Sovtek 5881s that came installed in my Fender. That's probably what your Groove Tubes are. IMO they are flat sounding - not a lot of harmonics or dynamics compared to a good 6L6. If you are looking for current production tubes, the Winged C 6L6GC will do you right. If you want to go with old tubes, Tung-Sol made THE 5881. I got a pair of GE 6L6GC tubes from Marty that are great, too.


----------



## Bieling3

I almost made the leap today to kt88's in my JCM 800 combo. I decided not to at the last minute because the shop would have had to order them and the resister change to the screen grid would have taken some extra time...

So I went with some JJ E34L Blues... can't really find much information about them. Besides the standard blerb:



> Blue glass envelope – otherwise no difference from the standard JJ E34L. With a slightly higher grid voltage (-13.5 to -16.5 vs -10 to -13.5 volts for the EL34) than other EL34 / this tube offers tight low end with smooth mids.



My guy said the same thing, they are indistinguishable from their clear glass brother. (Which was what was already in there.) Any opinions?


----------



## RiverRatt

The blue glass is just another gimmick to associate JJ with the old Tesla tubes. They are pretty to look at, but you're getting the same tube. I tried a set of JJ E34Ls awhile back and they were OK. I'd still pick the Winged C over the JJ tubes, YMMV.


----------



## Armann

MartyStrat thanks for the great info, didn't have time to read all the 11 pages.

You talked about the Tech Tube company, do they have webpage ?
Can't seem to find them on google.

One more thing, where do you guys buy your nos or cp tubes ?
I want to buy from a reliable source since it's going to be shipped to Iceland...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Armann said:


> MartyStrat thanks for the great info, didn't have time to read all the 11 pages.
> 
> You talked about the Tech Tube company, do they have webpage ?
> Can't seem to find them on google.
> 
> One more thing, where do you guys buy your nos or cp tubes ?
> I want to buy from a reliable source since it's going to be shipped to Iceland...



PM sent to you.


----------



## Bieling3

Okay, back from the shop and one power tube is glowing notably more than the other... which I'm pretty sure doesn't mean to awful much from what I've read. However the tech gave me a baggy with the .001uF capacitor I asked him to snip while he was in there, along with two black resistors he says are, were, part of the bias circuit:




He said the weren't holding their values consistently and need to be replaced. Would one power tube glowing slightly more than the other be a sign of trouble elsewhere, or is it something I'm just making to much of an issue out of?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bieling3 said:


> Okay, back from the shop and one power tube is glowing notably more than the other... which I'm pretty sure doesn't mean to awful much from what I've read. However the tech gave me a baggy with the .001uF capacitor I asked him to snip while he was in there, along with two black resistors he says are, were, part of the bias circuit:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He said the weren't holding their values consistently and need to be replaced. Would one power tube glowing slightly more than the other be a sign of trouble elsewhere, or is it something I'm just making to much of an issue out of?



It's sort of rare, but it does happen. I assume the tech has already replace the bad resistors. Yes, one tube can glow a little more than the other, as long as it is not a orange glow on the plates. I wouldn't worry about it, if the tech replaced the bad resistors and rebiased the tubes.


----------



## MM54

In terms of CP EL34's, what would you guys suggest?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The overall best CP EL34 is a Winged=C=. Definitely the best build of all the others.

Another to look at is the EH 6CA7. This is the American version of the EL34. It will bias up in any EL34 amp.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The overall best CP EL34 is a Winged=C=. Definitely the best build of all the others.
> 
> Another to look at is the EH 6CA7. This is the American version of the EL34. It will bias up in any EL34 amp.



Yeah the Winged C's seem to set the standard for durability and have good tone at the same time.

The EH 6CA7's are my weapon of choice right now. I really like em'.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Another to look at is the EH 6CA7. This is the American version of the EL34. It will bias up in any EL34 amp.



You sure? didnt Major have a problem?


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> You sure? didnt Major have a problem?



Yeah they drop right in in amps like mine. I remember something about what you are talking with the Major and the EH 6CA7 didn't work in his set up. The EH is not built the same as a NOS 6CA7...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Major had components tied and voltage present to the PIN 1 solder stub of his power sockets. This presented a problem when he installed the EH6CA7's. It was his error and not bad tubes from EH. 

Now, do some of them fail? Sure, they're power tubes and CP power tubes have the propensity to fail. However, the EH6CA7 seems to have a pretty good record.

Side note: The EH6CA7 is built like a 6L6GC. A real 6CA7 has the same electrical properties as an EL34. "But even so," an EL34 sounds different than a real 6CA7.


----------



## cudamax2343

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah the Winged C's seem to set the standard for durability and have good tone at the same time.
> 
> The EH 6CA7's are my weapon of choice right now. I really like em'.


Look at these Coke bottle babies from China




150 a pair on E-bay. They look nice


----------



## solarburn

cudamax2343 said:


> Look at these Coke bottle babies from China
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 150 a pair on E-bay. They look nice



Are these current production? Wonder if these are for HIFI amps mostly...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

These are the new Shuguangs. Look at the thread called, "Look At These Tubes."


----------



## MM54

What are the tonal differences, if any, between an EL34 and a 6CA7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> What are the tonal differences, if any, between an EL34 and a 6CA7?



The EL34 when pushed becomes gritty and produces that good crunch sound. Most high gain amps like a DSL or TSL never obtain this. The EL34's remain in the clean mode. Distortion is a product of an over driven preamp section, so the EL34's run clean.

6CA7's have more clean headroom, so they are a great choice for high gain amps and metal. They remain very tight at high volume levels. Perfect choice for the rhythm and lead player. If I could only use one word, it would be "articulate."


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> The EL34 when pushed becomes gritty and produces that good crunch sound. Most high gain amps like a DSL or TSL never obtain this. The EL34's remain in the clean mode. Distortion is a product of an over driven preamp section, so the EL34's run clean.
> 
> 6CA7's have more clean headroom, so they are a great choice for high gain amps and metal. They remain very tight at high volume levels. Perfect choice for the rhythm and lead player. If I could only use one word, it would be "articulate."




Could you explain what you mean when you say an amp like a "DSL/TSL would never obtain this"? Wouldn't they get good power valve breakup too if you cranked them? Not quite sure I understand.


----------



## MM54

Awesome, thanks Marty.


----------



## RiverRatt

With my DSL50 on the Classic clean channel and a moderate amount of gain, I can hear my RFT EL34s when the master volume gets up around 4. This is my favorite way to run the DSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LPMarshall hack said:


> Could you explain what you mean when you say an amp like a "DSL/TSL would never obtain this"? Wouldn't they get good power valve breakup too if you cranked them? Not quite sure I understand.



In my many discussions with Jon Wilder, we have talked about the various Marshall amps. If you have an 800 2203/04 amp or older, these amps were designed differently. We all know you have to crank them and that "their" sound comes more from power tube distortion.

To get a lot of break up, you really have to play these amps loud.

Marshall took care of this with the DSL and later, the TSL. (And the 410 later yet.) The whole purpose of these "high gain" amps was to get massive preamp distortion and play that through clean power. Now you have to realize that on a DSL100, the power tubes are still clean at 50 watts. You also know how loud it is at this level. This is what a high gain amp is designed to do.

Now can you get "power tube" distortion out of your amp? Well as I said, the tubes run clean well over fifty percent of the total power output. It is feasible that you could crank it really loud to get power tube distortion. However, this defeats the purpose of a high gain amp. Everyone wants power tube distortion and it is something that can be difficult to obtain, unless you are willing to push your amp to max settings. An amp running on 4 or 5 is not going to be creating power tube distortion.

Jon's new metal amp with the dual rail voltage supply and KT88's is going to be designed stiff and clean. The distortion will come from how the preamp circuits get voiced. The way this amp is designed, it can be cranked and still produces very low levels of power tube distortion.

When we play our amps loud, there can be many perceptions about what is happening. You need to understand that Marshall didn't design a high gain amp to start breaking up in the power tubes at 4 or 5 on the master volume.

For more info on this, or if you have other questions, contact Jon and tell him I sent you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, I wanted to add that as you increase the power, you would have to adjust the other controls on the amp. If you have a good setting on 5 and you crank the amp to 10, it is going to sound like crap with all of that distortion. You would have to remove most of the preamp distortion for the amp to sound like an older Marshall. Throwing massive distortion into distorting power tubes does not equal tonal bliss.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Also, I wanted to add that as you increase the power, you would have to adjust the other controls on the amp. If you have a good setting on 5 and you crank the amp to 10, it is going to sound like crap with all of that distortion. You would have to remove most of the preamp distortion for the amp to sound like an older Marshall. Throwing massive distortion into distorting power tubes does not equal tonal bliss.



Good for stoner rock or doom rock. I like my distortion flabby cause I play's the "Fart Rock"!

Jon should offer the "Fart Rock" mod. Better yet i'm going to go slice my speaker. Instant "Fart Drive"!

I need to get laid...


----------



## Wilder Amplification

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Jon should offer the "Fart Rock" mod. Better yet i'm going to go slice my speaker. Instant "Fart Drive"!



Marshall already patented that on the DSL/TSLs. 

A power amp is putting out clean signal up until its rated power output. In other words, if your 50 watt amp was set at a volume that puts out 50 watts, this power is CLEAN power. You have to push it past 50 watts to get it to clip. A fully clipped/overdriven power amp puts out well above its rated power (roughly 75 watts).

@LPMarshall hack...the intended purpose behind a multi-channel amp is to get your tone from the preamp. In order to have a channel switching amp that allows you to seamlessly change from "JC120 pristine clean" to "classic crunch" to "all out high gain" with the simple press of a button while also giving the ability to solo boost and run effects in the FX loop after the distorted signal, the power amp HAS to be ran clean. Once the power amp hits its headroom limit, the solo boost can no longer increase your volume, your delay/reverb loop effects will no longer sound great because now the power amp is distorting them, and you no longer have the ability for a seamless channel change from full on clean to full on high gain without rolling off your guitar's volume control.

Yes, you CAN run on the crunch channel and crank the thing and get power valve overdrive. However, there are drawbacks to this -

1) Without a power soak to limit the volume, you now have power valve overdrive at a non-manageable volume because you have no way to turn it down.

2) Even with a power soak, all of the above mentioned features of the amp will be negated at the point of power valve overdrive for the above mentioned reasons. You are now distorted from input jack to speaker jack...without running a "slave rig", you have no way to get the delay/reverb effects DOWNSTREAM of the distorting circuitry. As such, these effects which were designed to be CLEANLY added to a signal that is already distorted are now getting distorted themselves.

Again...THE ONLY way to get power valve overdrive at manageable volumes is to run a power soak. If this is your primary goal in life, it's pointless to get a DSL and you might as well get a Super Lead at that point.

However, I think the term "power valve overdrive" is being misused in a lot of cases. I think what most guitarists are meaning to refer to when they speak of "power valve overdrive" is that "big/girthy/full" sound and clarity and the "high impact" that high SPLs give you, but at low bedroom volumes, but they're getting that confused with power valve overdrive.


----------



## core

Say hello to my lil friends... just got these bad boys in, NOS Old School Tung-Sol 6550's. Thought it would be a long while before I found a good pair at a good price but I got lucky with these


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good buy (he-he). I think I remember seeing those. Yeah, that was a good buy on metal base, original 6550's. Rock on.


----------



## core

Cheers to you Marty!


----------



## wkcchampion

For who's interested, I just posted a shootout between EL34 and 6CA7, recording two clips with anything else identical


----------



## solarburn

wkcchampion said:


> For who's interested, I just posted a shootout between EL34 and 6CA7, recording two clips with anything else identical



Where are the clips I'm looking...


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

wkcchampion said:


> For who's interested, I just posted a shootout between EL34 and 6CA7, recording two clips with anything else identical



do i need a biomedical engineering degree to listen to them?


----------



## wkcchampion

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Where are the clips I'm looking...



In the Cellar section of course


----------



## dave999z

I ordered to pairs of NOS Mullard xf2 tubes a couple weeks ago (from two different sellers). I put them in my amp today and took readings with my Weber Bias Rite. The idle current reading for one of them is zero (actually -0.2). Does that mean the tube is shot?

Crap. If so, this seller better take them back.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

dave999z said:


> I ordered to pairs of NOS Mullard xf2 tubes a couple weeks ago (from two different sellers). I put them in my amp today and took readings with my Weber Bias Rite. The idle current reading for one of them is zero (actually -0.2). Does that mean the tube is shot?
> 
> Crap. If so, this seller better take them back.



No, that could mean that the screen resistor on that socket is blown.

If you have a multimeter, without the valves installed find pin 4 (from the top it would be the 4th pin hole counterclockwise from the keyway), clip the black lead of the meter to the chassis and the red lead into pin 4. Turn the amp on and the standby switch in "play" mode. If no voltage present on that pin, the screen resistor is blown and needs to be replaced.

If you can't do that, then swap the tubes around (i.e. move them to different sockets) and see if the problem follows the valve. If it does, then it's the valve. If not, then more than likely the screen resistor is blown.


----------



## dave999z

Thanks. I swapped the tubes... the problem followed the tube.

This guy better take returns.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for your advice John.


----------



## dave999z

He'll take it back - was cool about it.

But now I need to find another matched pair of NOS Mullard EL34 xf2 dual getters.


----------



## ToddOwnz

So I was thinking about buying some parts from Ceriatone to build an 18 watt Marshall clone and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these amps and what power tubes flow with it? Any ideas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ToddOwnz said:


> So I was thinking about buying some parts from Ceriatone to build an 18 watt Marshall clone and was wondering if anyone had any experience with these amps and what power tubes flow with it? Any ideas?



Well if it's a clone it will have three 12AX7's and two EL84's. If you can get you some NOS power tubes, they will last a long time. There seen to be a supply of Sylvania Black Plates. I would probably go:

V1: Hand Select, Low Noise Tung-Sol
V2: Hand select, High Gain Tung-Sol
V3-EH Standard Tube.

I currently have in stock Black Plate EL84's.


----------



## ToddOwnz

Marty you rock btw! I think I changed my mind to the JCM 800 2204 clone. It's the sound I'm looking for especially after listening to this guys soundclip:

http://bestnetworx.com/uploader/files/52/ceriatone2204_jailbreak.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm trying to sell an amp so I can get a 2204 and have Jon mod it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Does it have to be a 2204? I know where a Ceriatone 1987 is that dude is wanting to part with so he can get a 1959.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Twister didn't sell again. Strike Two. It's a really popular amp. Apparently all of the buyers already know how they sound.:eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## ToddOwnz

So let me ask another question while I'm here 

I currently have JJ EL34s in my DSL's power amp and they are fairly new. But I was thinking about getting some SED =C=s for it and also that way, I would have back-ups. Would I notice a difference tonally switching from JJs to SEDs?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Winged=C= is a lot different sounding. The JJ's are brighter, more top mid sounding.

The =C='s are smoother from bottom to top.

SolarBurn has a lot of experience with these tubes.


----------



## wkcchampion

A lot like the difference between 6CA7 and EL34? uhahahahaha


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes and your perfect scientific experiment with them that everybody doubted.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

I like to crank my amp. I am lucky enough to have a gig that I can get pretty open once a week. Because of that I was thinking of staying away from NOS power tubes and using some decent CP. I found with my Mesa/Boogie that I could really change the tone of my amp. These SED Winged =C= however its done seem pretty well approved. How do they compare to the stock crap in my DSL right now?


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes and your perfect scientific experiment with them that everybody doubted.



Actually only you did. And without any valid reason 
You just don't like admitting defeat uh? 
Let me tell you this little story. 
Do you know who was Masahiko Kimura? He was one of teh greatest judoka of history. Well, you are behaving a bit like his historic rival Helio Gracie  
In 1955 there was the legendary match-up between them.
Gracie was hit by several throws and fell trapped into an Ude Garami. He preferred to go home with two broken bones instead of conceding victory to his opponent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And this has what to do about power tubes?

Just another one of your lame stories.

BTW-Go back and you'll see that others did not "buy" your tube experiment. You think you are so clever that nothing you do can be doubted. I got news for you.

"WRONG!"


----------



## DSL100 Dude




----------



## MartyStrat54

The Winged =C= is the most respected, current production EL34. I highly recommend them.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Thanks Marty!


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> And this has what to do about power tubes?
> 
> Just another one of your lame stories.
> 
> BTW-Go back and you'll see that others did not "buy" your tube experiment. You think you are so clever that nothing you do can be doubted. I got news for you.
> 
> "WRONG!"



Your problem is that you keep blabbering but do *nothing* effective to prove your claims. While instead I provide actual facts. Just keep saying "WRONG WRONG" and not explaining why with valid reasons shifts the right to my side.
I recorded a clip that proves the truth, and I can do how many other clips you want like that. The result won't change. You can believe it or not, but it's clear to everybody.
When I stated it first I was attacked like I had sad blasphemy... but now things change uh?

And curiously, the ancient Romans said:

_verba volant, scripta manent._

Take note.


----------



## RiverRatt

wkcchampion said:


> And curiously, the ancient Romans said:
> 
> _verba volant, scripta manent._
> 
> Take note.



And even more curiously, when I go to your website to listen to your soundclips, Malwarebytes AntiMalware tags your site as a malicious website. You might want to get that checked out.

And curiously, an ancient music store owner I used to work for said:
"A fanatic of any kind is a pain in the ass."

You might want to work on your delivery, Marco. Your soundclips do sound well done, but the antagonistic attitude you adopt isn't going to win you any friends here. 

Furthermore, all it seems that you are proving by your clips is that you can record an amp and lose it in the mix and then say that the tubes have little effect on the sound. Quite frankly, the compressed tone I'm hearing on your clips could have been done with a Pod or a Crate or straight into your PC with some software reamping. I'm not hearing the character of a tube amp at all, just a rather generic sounding mix. I'm not saying it's bad, but you're not going to prove anything with it. 

I think what it boils down to is that you have an issue with Marty being the de facto tube guru on the forum and you're determined to bring him down, the same way you attack anyone with a Vox amp in the OTHER AMPS forum that isn't up to your standards. 

Bottom line: We don't need you to enlighten us. If you want to play the game and compare tubes and the way they interact with different amps, fine. Go and listen to some ZZ Top and AC/DC and learn how to record a tube amp while keeping the dynamics and feel. Then post your observations, not your earth-shattering sound clips trying to prove that you are superior to us all.


----------



## wkcchampion

RiverRatt said:


> And even more curiously, when I go to your website to listen to your soundclips, Malwarebytes AntiMalware tags your site as a malicious website. You might want to get that checked out.
> 
> And curiously, an ancient music store owner I used to work for said:
> "A fanatic of any kind is a pain in the ass."
> 
> You might want to work on your delivery, Marco. Your soundclips do sound well done, but the antagonistic attitude you adopt isn't going to win you any friends here.
> 
> Furthermore, all it seems that you are proving by your clips is that you can record an amp and lose it in the mix and then say that the tubes have little effect on the sound. Quite frankly, the compressed tone I'm hearing on your clips could have been done with a Pod or a Crate or straight into your PC with some software reamping. I'm not hearing the character of a tube amp at all, just a rather generic sounding mix. I'm not saying it's bad, but you're not going to prove anything with it.
> 
> I think what it boils down to is that you have an issue with Marty being the de facto tube guru on the forum and you're determined to bring him down, the same way you attack anyone with a Vox amp in the OTHER AMPS forum that isn't up to your standards.
> 
> Bottom line: We don't need you to enlighten us. If you want to play the game and compare tubes and the way they interact with different amps, fine. Go and listen to some ZZ Top and AC/DC and learn how to record a tube amp while keeping the dynamics and feel. Then post your observations, not your earth-shattering sound clips trying to prove that you are superior to us all.



Ah it's always easy to critize without making proof against. Again, only words. That's too easy.
When somebody posts clips that show the opposite of what mine show, then we'll talk. Do a clip comparing EL34 and 6CA7 when there's a night and day difference, for example. Come on. Here's my challenge, answer it. Or stop criticizing my work.
I don't want to be superior, I just want to show the truth with proof. I don't just say "tubes influence teh sound minimally, there are factors that contribute much more", I offer proof to validate my statements.
What you guys DON'T.

Regarding the Vox thing, that's a scandal that has been well documented with the magnet numbers on the speakers and various sound clips.

Then you can bash my work if this makes u feel superior.
But again:

_verba volant, scripta manent_


----------



## RiverRatt

It doesn't make me feel superior, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to prove. 

I can hear the difference in my Marshall depending on what power amp and preamp tube setup I'm running. That's what this thread is about. If I understand you correctly, your argument is that you can negate this by recording different tubes and making them sound indistinguishable? Correct?

I don't go into my music room and listen to recordings of my amp. I listen to it live. I interact with it live. I perform with it live. I fail to see where a recorded clip proves anything. There are too many other factors involved to call what you are doing definitive work. I guess you come from a different background, but I want to make my amp sound it's best LIVE. Sound clips are never going to supercede what my ears are telling me. 

I get the Latin. Something to the effect of "Spoken words are transitory, written words are permanent." I'm guessing that you are saying that your sound studies are the "scripta manent," that proves our spoken words are wrong. Have you ever entertained the notion that if nobody else is agreeing with you that you could possibly be wrong yourself?


----------



## wkcchampion

RiverRatt said:


> It doesn't make me feel superior, I honestly don't understand what you are trying to prove.
> 
> I can hear the difference in my Marshall depending on what power amp and preamp tube setup I'm running. That's what this thread is about. If I understand you correctly, your argument is that you can negate this by recording different tubes and making them sound indistinguishable? Correct?
> 
> I don't go into my music room and listen to recordings of my amp. I listen to it live. I interact with it live. I perform with it live. I fail to see where a recorded clip proves anything. There are too many other factors involved to call what you are doing definitive work. I guess you come from a different background, but I want to make my amp sound it's best LIVE. Sound clips are never going to supercede what my ears are telling me.
> 
> I get the Latin. Something to the effect of "Spoken words are transitory, written words are permanent." I'm guessing that you are saying that your sound studies are the "scripta manent," that proves our spoken words are wrong. Have you ever entertained the notion that if nobody else is agreeing with you that you could possibly be wrong yourself?



Good, another person understanding latin. It makes honour to you, congratulations! Very few do nowadays. Well done bro.

Ah so that's the point. And here we come back to the statement everyone in this forum (except one - and it's a _big _one) bashed me for: 
"the only tone which matters is the recorded one".

And why? First, because at a volume higher than a loud conversation, human hears start to saturate.
How can u trust them with a such high volume?
I hear "the amp is going to sound differently when miked". No, it's actually the human being that listens differently. Actually, it can only properly listen at speech volume.
Second: apart from rehearsalling, when do u hear the amp unmiked? 
Recording.. well no of course. Live: I always miked up my Voxes in the past (I left paper tape on the grill for the mic sweet spot I found after hours and hours of tests in my studio - I miss my studio ) - yes I had 2 in the past. Now one has been replaced by Marshall 

Remember i'm a biomedical engineer so I know these things quite well. 
For more, go to Wiki and look for the Fletcher-Munson effect.

So, that being said, let's make it clear.
I have nothing personal against Marty, I praise his deep tubes knowledge a lot. I'd like to have that too - perhaps one day I will, who knows, in the years. 
But I was badly attacked when I stated "tubes do change the sound but only marginally, I think there are factors who influence more" (in short). And now, try to tell me that this is not true.
Furthermore, my statement regards an map with new tubes in healthy conditions and well biased. It's obvious that worn out and/or bad biased tubes sound like sh*t and I can confirm this as the EL34s died on both monoblocs of my 50/50.

BTW, I've sent an amp-only recording to a friend in Sweden which has several cabs in his recording pro studio. He's sending the sound thru different cabs with different mixcs and positions, and send me the wave files back. As preview, we'll hear old VS new greenbacks plus more when ready  I promise that THERE you will here DRAMATIC tone changes. I've listened to one 5 sec preview and it's convincing.


----------



## Landshark

nvm


----------



## wkcchampion

Landshark said:


> nvm



 Did u mean JVM?


----------



## dave999z

wkcchampion said:


> And here we come back to the statement everyone in this forum (except one - and it's a _big _one) bashed me for:
> "the only tone which matters is the recorded one".
> 
> And why? First, because at a volume higher than a loud conversation, human hears start to saturate.
> How can u trust them with a such high volume?
> I hear "the amp is going to sound differently when miked". No, it's actually the human being that listens differently. Actually, it can only properly listen at speech volume.
> 
> * * *
> 
> For more, go to Wiki and look for the Fletcher-Munson effect.



God I hate to wade into this. One could easily squander a day swatting flies. But...

What is your point? (that's rhetorical, please don't answer) All that the Fletcher-Munson demonstrates is that we percieve bass frequencies to be softer than they really are and we perceive upper mid frequencies to be louder than they really are, and this effect is more pronounced at low volumes.

Gigs are loud, so dial in your gig tone at gig volumes.

People don't play records as loud, so dial in your recorded tone at that volume (or crank your amp to oblivion but listen to the mic'd sound through studio monitors or headphones at a more normal volume while you do it).

What does that have to do with how much tubes contribute to the sound? Are you arguing that tubes don't matter as much in the studio because you're less likely to push them? That assumes tubes sound the same until saturated, and assumes you record your amp at low volume.

But who cares!



wkcchampion said:


> Second: apart from rehearsalling, when do u hear the amp unmiked?
> Recording.. well no of course. Live: I always miked up my Voxes in the past (I left paper tape on the grill for the mic sweet spot I found after hours and hours of tests in my studio - I miss my studio ).



The point of cranking the amp is not really (or not only) to change the EQ. It's to get the responsiveness, feedback, smoothness, etc. The soundguy should know how to re-EQ a jacked amp through the PA. It's not rocket science, just cut the presence a bit. (Sound guys all have massive hearing deficits in that range though, so they aren't good at this.)

Why am I writing all this. Quantifying the contribution that tubes make to overall tone is impossible and pointless. If you don't think that tubes matter, then go work on your cabinet, pickups, etc.

I'm going to see P.I.L. tonight. I'll ask Johnny Rotten what he thinks.


----------



## wkcchampion

dave999z said:


> God I hate to wade into this. One could easily squander a day swatting flies. But...
> 
> What is your point? (that's rhetorical, please don't answer) All that the Fletcher-Munson demonstrates is that we percieve bass frequencies to be softer than they really are and we perceive upper mid frequencies to be louder than they really are, and this effect is more pronounced at low volumes.
> 
> Gigs are loud, so dial in your gig tone at gig volumes.
> 
> People don't play records as loud, so dial in your recorded tone at that volume (or crank your amp to oblivion but listen to the mic'd sound through studio monitors or headphones at a more normal volume while you do it).
> 
> What does that have to do with how much tubes contribute to the sound? Are you arguing that tubes don't matter as much in the studio because you're less likely to push them? That assumes tubes sound the same until saturated, and assumes you record your amp at low volume.
> 
> But who cares!
> 
> 
> 
> The point of cranking the amp is not really (or not only) to change the EQ. It's to get the responsiveness, feedback, smoothness, etc. The soundguy should know how to re-EQ a jacked amp through the PA. It's not rocket science, just cut the presence a bit. (Sound guys all have massive hearing deficits in that range though, so they aren't good at this.)
> 
> Why am I writing all this. Quantifying the contribution that tubes make to overall tone is impossible and pointless. If you don't think that tubes matter, then go work on your cabinet, pickups, etc.
> 
> I'm going to see P.I.L. tonight. I'll ask Johnny Rotten what he thinks.



Oh yes you do play recordings at live venues. What do DJs do?
Yes they do of course.
And... what is a recording made of? Miked or direct to board instruments? You got it right (guitar, drums, bass, synths...)
I spent hours in my studio finding the sweet spot of a single SM57 for lives. In the studio you can use multiple mics, including room mics, live it's better keep the things simple. 1 or 2 and that's all (per cabinet) - at least for the gigs I used to play (I was never enough lucky to perform at Wembley...).

I used to mark the amp's sweet pot with paper tape. Have u ever noticed pro having tape on the cabinets? 
If the tone is ok in studio, it will be live too. As of course if a recording play good at home volume, it will at loud volume too (with a little Fletcher-Munson compensation). DJs do this.
It's the same. 

Ok, this is completely off-topic and I won't go on, but I had to reply to Dave.

And Dave, I don't think you've understood much why an amp needs to be cranked.... are we in the Power tubes thread? Exactly. Because these tubes needs to be pushed to give a good crunch sound


----------



## DSL100 Dude

nvm=nevermind


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Ok, so the =C= sounds like the way I will roll.

Although I admit that I would LOVE to put some NOS in there I am just worried that I will use 'em up in 6 months and then be very bummed.


----------



## thrawn86

wkcchampion said:


> <snip> First, because at a volume higher than a loud conversation, human hears start to saturate.
> How can u trust them with a such high volume? <snip>



I didn't bother to re read all that has been posted up to now, but I am familiar with your argument for the most part, Champ.

As far as the power tubes (or any tubes) go, I understand that you feel it makes only a marginal difference. You are entitled to that opinion. But, short of vast modifications or a complete change in speakers, aren't the 'marginal differences' the ones we strive after? I never sought to change the inherent sound of my amp, only to fine-tune what it produces. And I succeeded in doing so by installing NOS in both tube sections of my amp.

I can say definitavely, no doubt, that after changing JUST my power tubes (before I had my NOS preamp tubes to install) from the Ei's I had to the NOS Mullards, that there was a decided difference in the tone and sound of the amp.

To go a step further, pre-installation, my Ei's were at around a bias of 1.3mV. Upon rebias with the NOS, I set it at 1.15. (NOTE: Typically, the NOS power valves are supposed to perform _better at a higher bias setting._)The tone was a significant (read: 'marginal difference', if you please) improvement over the previous tubes.

I did not crank the volume at first. I played with the master at around 2, gain halfway up on all channels, and kept EQ settings static so I had a clear auditory 'picture', if you will, of the differences. I could tell a difference. And I am a severe pessimist. I always look at things from the 'worst-case scenario' setting. In this case, it wasn't so.

In closing, for those who continue to preach the fact that "NOS tubes aren't worth the time, effort and monetary investment", please continue to do so. For those of us with a gift of ear, we will gladly continue to collect and purchase these gems of tone. You are welcome to mod all you want with speakers, recording techniques, etc.

I am Thrawn86, and I approve of NOS.


----------



## thrawn86

BTW, I also have NOTHING against anyone who uses CP tubes. All that matters is that we Rock On. The only problem I have with all of this banter is the statement that "NOS makes NO difference."


----------



## wkcchampion

thrawn86 said:


> BTW, I also have NOTHING against anyone who uses CP tubes. All that matters is that we Rock On. The only problem I have with all of this banter is the statement that "NOS makes NO difference."



Find where I've written that "NOS makes no difference"
Nowhere? Yup.
I just stated and proved that even by cranking up the amp to full, there's _minimal _difference between EL34s and 6CA7s. This is the truth, accept it or not.


----------



## thrawn86

Seeing as how I use neither, you're right. My opinion doesn't matter. 

Have at it, gents.


----------



## dave999z

wkcchampion said:


> Oh yes you do play recordings at live venues. What do DJs do?
> Yes they do of course.



No, they don't. DJs don't take commercial recordings and just triple the volume to fill a club. That would sound like ass. Good club systems heavily EQ and compress what goes out through their PA.





wkcchampion said:


> And Dave, I don't think you've understood much why an amp needs to be cranked.... are we in the Power tubes thread? Exactly. Because these tubes needs to be pushed to give a good crunch sound



Which has nothing whatsoever to do with EQ or the FM curve.

I'm done arguing this with you. I don't even understand what your argument is. You just don't make sense and keep grasping at random irrelevant nonsense. And your definition of "proved" is interesting to say the least. But, carry on...


----------



## thrawn86

riverratt said:


> i can hear the difference in my marshall depending on what power amp and preamp tube setup i'm running. That's what this thread is about.



+ 1042


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd be more interested in NOS EL34's versus NOS 6CA7's. Say a pair of Mullard xf2's against a Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7 with double OO getters.

Instead, you are testing current production 6CA7's that are made like a 6L6GC. Did you know this? With your vast knowledge, did you know that tube manufacturers bend the truth about their products? A real 6CA7 is vastly superior to an Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 and the internal wiring is different. In the world of NOS, a 6CA7 has the same wiring and electrical properties as an EL34. This is not the case with the EH tube. 

I was going to bring this up on your "test" thread, but I'm already bored with it and what you have "proven." It's hard to say you proved anything when the tubes you used aren't the real thing. They may say 6CA7 on them, but they are not real 6CA7's.

A real NOS 6CA7 has been called a poor man's 6550. The reason for this is the 6CA7 has similar tonal qualities of a 6550. Tight bottom end and smooth through the mid's and the classic glass like sparkly high end. It also has more headroom before it goes into distortion. So even thought the NOS 6CA7 is the same electronically as an NOS EL34, they sound different.

In reality, your test was "one" brand of EL34 against what is really a 6L6GC.

But then you knew that and you are going to tell all of us you knew that, but you just failed to mention it before you did the "test."

From "Porkchop61" of diyAudio: "Okay, I finally got a pair of the EH 6CA7's to try in this amp. Very nice sounding to me. I actually prefer the sound of these over the EH EL34's. They are less "edgy" than the EL34's. Very similar sounding to the JJ 6L6's I've also tested.
Overall, I'm quite impressed with these tubes."

If you look at the construction of a NOS 6CA7, it looks different from an EH6CA7.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Ok, I have another stupid question.

How much of a P.I.T.A. is it to swap and bias power tubes on a regular basis?

I got thinking that if I could use CP for my one gig and then NOS for everything else then I get best of both worlds right? Or is this just a real waste of time and silly?


----------



## MartyStrat54

DSL100 Dude said:


> Ok, I have another stupid question.
> 
> How much of a P.I.T.A. is it to swap and bias power tubes on a regular basis?
> 
> I got thinking that if I could use CP for my one gig and then NOS for everything else then I get best of both worlds right? Or is this just a real waste of time and silly?



If you buy NOS and the tubes test high, or above new. They will last approximately five times as long as a CP set. This is due to the fact that guitar amps are very hard on the screens and the screens in a NOS tube can handle higher voltage. Plus the vacuum is better, the quality of the coatings are better and the small delicate parts are made more precisely.

Don't let them freak you out. I have amps with NOS tubes that are the original equipment. If someone has a 10 year old set of Sovteks in their amp, I say, "It's very risky." If someone has 20 year old NOS tubes, I say, "Nice."

Do they last forever? No. But I would enjoy them if I had them. You could always get four or five amps and put NOS in all of them and then you would only be playing one amp every four or five weeks.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Five times as long!?!?






WOO HOO!!!





What awesome information. Thank you again. Sooooo, I reckon that means...


----------



## MartyStrat54

6CA7 EH






6L6GC EH






6L6GB Sovtek






Sovtek 6L6WXT+ (Look at this and the 6CA7 EH) Both made by Sovtek.






JJ 6L6GC






JJ E34L






JJ EL34






Notice the similarity in design, especially with any of the New Sensor brands. Look at how the Sovtek 6L6WXT+ looks very much like the 6CA7 EH. Both tubes made at the same Sovtek plant. 

We know that there is a lot of trickery that goes on in the world of tubes and tube sales. JJ-Tesla? False. There never was any association of Tesla to JJ at all. It is purely fictional, but it sells tubes everyday. 

I would say that the Sovtek WXT and the EH 6CA7 are made on the same line with probably the same parts. This has happened many times before, so you know it is going to happen again.

When most tube geeks think of 6CA7's, they know that no matter what the brand, only GE and Sylvania made them. They were all fat bottle glass. The European tube makers were already getting most of the tube sales over the Americans and all they did was etch "6CA7" on their EL34 tubes. None of the supposed European 6CA7's were ever made in fat bottle glass. They were all EL34's. This gave the Europeans two part numbers to sell one tube. The Americans quickly did the same with their 6CA7. The EL34 is a power pentode and the 6CA7 is a beam power tetrode. Sylvania and GE marketed a tube as a 6CA7 which was not only in a markedly different 'fat boy' envelope, but used a beam forming plate much like a 6L6. Examining the mica spacer on the top of the tube will confirm the lack of a suppressor grid. Although these tubes have similar (but not identical) characteristics, they are made very differently. (I bet they sound different too.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

From my private collection: Sylvania Fat Boy Double OO Getter 6CA7.
















Very rare, Triple OOO Getter, Sylvania Fat Boy. Two top and one side getter.











Not the best pictures, but look at how these are made, especially the getters. The plates are welded together, not crimped. 800VDC rating.


----------



## thrawn86

Crap Marty, Darth Vader used those in his TIE Fighter.

Sweet pics. 

Too bad that NOS makes no difference, eh?


----------



## solarburn

They make a big difference...$$$$$! Hehe.


----------



## ToddOwnz

Umm, can I have those? hehe


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, three Martimus Maximus Tone Pack users in a row. I'm gonna have to get some T-Shirts made.


----------



## thrawn86

Lol!


----------



## RiverRatt

Make that four. I just got that GE 6L6 in today's mail. Too bad I won't be home until tomorrow morning sometime.


----------



## thrawn86

We need to become TRUE cork sniffers. Maybe I should start a new social group called the NOS Cork Sniffer Society. 
Only All-NOS equipped amps. Our motto:
_Carpe Valvum_....Seize the Tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like it, I like it. Could be hotter than the DSL Conspriacy.

Only NOS tube users may apply. Martimus Maximus users are allowed membership with no questions asked.

Must be running at least one section in the amp with NOS. (Both sections preferred.) Extra big cork provided for those who meet the NOS requirements.

50 per cent off of the annual ballroom event with approved membership within the next 90 days.

The make of car you drive, or your home address does not matter. NOS tubes in your amp is all that matters. See you at the Ball!


----------



## ToddOwnz

Haha I dig! Another question for you Mr. Maximus, my preamp is all NOS except for v4 :Ohno: and was wondering what you would recommend for this spot and if it would help out tonally? Right now it's a JJ


edit: oops! I guess this should be in the preamp section!


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Is it normal for Bias to drift away that much , or do i have another problem ?
A few months back i installed new TADS in My 6100 , and set them at 39/40 mv .
i was playing it last night and it just didn't feel right , so i decided to check the bias 
and found it to be @ 32 mv , a little on the cold side . So i adjusted it back to 40mv tonight and BANG !!! its ALIVE again ! 

Is this normal or what ??


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like it, I like it. Could be hotter than the DSL Conspriacy.
> 
> Only NOS tube users may apply. Martimus Maximus users are allowed membership with no questions asked.
> 
> Must be running at least one section in the amp with NOS. (Both sections preferred.) Extra big cork provided for those who meet the NOS requirements.
> 
> 50 per cent off of the annual ballroom event with approved membership within the next 90 days.
> 
> The make of car you drive, or your home address does not matter. NOS tubes in your amp is all that matters. See you at the Ball!



I think you're on to something here, Martimus.


----------



## solarburn

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Is it normal for Bias to drift away that much , or do i have another problem ?
> A few months back i installed new TADS in My 6100 , and set them at 39/40 mv .
> i was playing it last night and it just didn't feel right , so i decided to check the bias
> and found it to be @ 32 mv , a little on the cold side . So i adjusted it back to 40mv tonight and BANG !!! its ALIVE again !
> 
> Is this normal or what ??



Keep checking it over the next few playings and see what happens. Also you can move the tube around to see if it drifts in other slots too to rule out other issues that may not be the tube. Watch it closely...I replaced a 6CA7 that was drifting. It happens.


----------



## RiverRatt

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Is it normal for Bias to drift away that much , or do i have another problem ?
> A few months back i installed new TADS in My 6100 , and set them at 39/40 mv .
> i was playing it last night and it just didn't feel right , so i decided to check the bias
> and found it to be @ 32 mv , a little on the cold side . So i adjusted it back to 40mv tonight and BANG !!! its ALIVE again !
> 
> Is this normal or what ??



You're probably not going to want to hear this, but you had to expect it. My DSL drifts with CP tubes. I used to leave my multimeter hooked up to the test points so I could check it when it started sounding bad. I would adjust it at least once a month. 

I finally found a fix for it, and it was only around $100. I put a pair of NOS RFT EL34s in it and they haven't drifted more than a few tenths since I put them in about a year ago. 

There are many benefits of using NOS tubes. 

I'm just having a hell of a time recording with them, though. No matter what I do, my Marshall sounds just like a Line6 Pod after I mix it down and apply the ancient lost art of Dung-Flung-Whoopee doppler shift by recording my amp in the trunk of my car while I drive in circles around the mic at 90 mph. This is only for professionals - don't try it yourself, just take my word for it.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Keep checking it over the next few playings and see what happens. Also you can move the tube around to see if it drifts in other slots too to rule out other issues that may not be the tube. Watch it closely...I replaced a 6CA7 that was drifting. It happens.



I move my probe and check both pairs , and found that both pair were low ...
I will check it again in a few days , but it sounds great again . What a difference a little bias can do for a guys tone !!!

thanks


----------



## solarburn

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> I move my probe and check both pairs , and found that both pair were low ...
> I will check it again in a few days , but it sounds great again . What a difference a little bias can do for a guys tone !!!
> 
> thanks



I play every day and I usually will check my bias once a week definitely once every 2 weeks. I like to see how they are holding up. Damn drifters hehe.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

I have not checked mine since i installed the new tubes about 3 or 4 months ago !
OOPS !!!


----------



## solarburn

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> I have not checked mine since i installed the new tubes about 3 or 4 months ago !
> OOPS !!!



Well I'm kinda anal about check'n them cause I've had some bad ones. It made me watch them closer is all.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Cool ! i will check back with you in a few days and let you know what i found !

thanks


----------



## thrawn86

See, we of the DSL Conspiracy do know a thing or two. And are glad to help.


----------



## thrawn86

Solar, I've never said this before, but I always really dug that avatar you've got.


----------



## solarburn

Angus rocks! He is the "Bad Boy Boogie"!

Malcolm ain't no slouch either. Love how he holds this one down while bro goes off...

NO wankage here...just plain ole' R&R bliss!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tQqYJRxHC0&feature=related]YouTube - AC/DC - Bad Boy Boogie[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Power tubes!

There back on topic hehe.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Malcom just has an amazing tone. Add Angus with his high end bite and they ARE Rock n Roll!

POWER TUBES!!!!


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

thrawn86 said:


> See, we of the DSL Conspiracy do know a thing or two. And are glad to help.



Thanks Thrawn u da Man !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are like three, maybe four spots where the bass hits some really funky notes. I don't know what technique is use. However, when Bon was still alive I had all the AC/DC cassettes and we'd be rocking out in the country, maybe with Mary Jane and that note would come on and just resonate the entire car. Good thing I had good speakers and a lot of power. Ahh, the good old days.


----------



## RiverRatt

DSL100 Dude said:


> Malcom just has an amazing tone. Add Angus with his high end bite and they ARE Rock n Roll!
> 
> POWER TUBES!!!!



I was listening to the Highway to Hell album the other day while I was out traveling. I'll bet I listened to "Beatin' Around The Bush" and "Shot Down in Flames" at least 10 times. The intro's to those two songs are my favorite Malcolm tones of all time, and they are back-to-back on the same album. I like their stuff after Bon Scott, but IMO the guitar tone has never been as good as it was back then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Like any group that's around for more than 3 records, they became dignified. They had a producer that "over produced" their sound. Yes it was good, but it was different. In the Bon Scott era, you could hear every note and it was just your good old raw Marshall sound. You could almost smell the output tubes.


----------



## thrawn86

And what valves, pray tell us Martimus, do you think they primarily had?


----------



## solarburn

And thats what I like...that raw Marshall tone used by a band that knows how to rock. Badlands is another one for me that has the same raw Marshall tone work'n that isn't refined or over produced. The rest of the band kicks ass too. I'm referring to the self titled or the first Badlands which is Raunch & Roll plank spank'n and sexy as hell.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Solarburn !! one thing i noticed is that after i rebiased my 6100 , the 3rd channel 
has really come alive , it sounds big , thick , and full again ......LOVE IT !!


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> And what valves, pray tell us Martimus, do you think they primarily had?



Angus had a massive stash of Mullard tubes. One of the roadies was a dedicated tube buyer. Of course when AC/DC started out, there were still some very good tube companies in business. It's just after all of it shut down that all the major bands had someone buying the band their tubes.

EVH was the same way. Again, they got started in the late 70's. Eddie used the Philips ECG 6CA7. At some point, someone hired by the band was obtaining 6CA7's and from what I hear, Eddie has like two large crates of them. Drool.

Yes the Young brothers had the old tried and true Mullards in the pre and power sections. (And probably still do.)

Did you see that thread about Bran selling Marshall #2 on EBAY? Pretty soon, when some of these guys hit 70, they will be unloading their tube stash and what a pretty price it will bring 10 years from now.


----------



## solarburn

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Solarburn !! one thing i noticed is that after i rebiased my 6100 , the 3rd channel
> has really come alive , it sounds big , thick , and full again ......LOVE IT !!



That's what she said...

I checked mine today and they were a bit off too hehe. Rebiased and they locked right in. It had been about 3 weeks since I last checked. I'm keeping my eyes on these cause I already had one drift that the Tube store warrantied right at the 3 month mark.

Enjoy the new found power ahahahahahhaha!(evil laugh)


----------



## RiverRatt

Check my bias.... it don't change.
Stays 42... come shine or rain.
(sorry for getting lyrical... still running low on sleep)



solarburnDSL50 said:


> And thats what I like...that raw Marshall tone used by a band that knows how to rock. Badlands is another one for me that has the same raw Marshall tone work'n that isn't refined or over produced. The rest of the band kicks ass too. I'm referring to the self titled or the first Badlands which is Raunch & Roll plank spank'n and sexy as hell.



I always liked the Marshall tone on Def Leppard's Pyromania, too. Steve Clark's tone on Photograph is good. Sometimes it gets a little buried in the mix but it's pure Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, I found a cool tube the other day in a box of old coke bottle 24's and stuff. It's a fat bottle 6Y6 - it looks like a 6V6 built in a 6L6 bottle. It's supposed to be really close to a 6V6, too, but it can only handle around 200v on the plates.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Early Def Leppard was great stuff. I really think that every album got more "polished" as they went on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They had "Mutt" Lange as a producer. The guy had the Midas Touch. Of course, they were young and doing lots of drugs and drinking massive amounts of vodka, scotch and bourbon. Did I mention beer?


----------



## Kentucky Martian

OK simple Question and Probably been asked a thousand times on here But........ How do you know when your Power tubes are going Bad???


----------



## solarburn

Kentucky Martian said:


> OK simple Question and Probably been asked a thousand times on here But........ How do you know when your Power tubes are going Bad???



Quoted:

If your power tubes are beginning to go, you'll probably find that the amp is not as loud. If the intensity of the tone seems to sag and evince less presence, it may be a sign a power tube is going. Soon you'll be turning your amp up to 7 to get the same volume you used to get at 5.

Funky electronic noises and pops can also be a sign of power tube failure. Or sometimes power tubes can become microphonic. They may begin to emit an unpleasant, extremely high-pitched constant squealing. Next week we'll discuss preamp tube problems that can have similar effects, but if you're hearing these symptoms, chances are you'll have to bite the bullet and buy yourself a new set of power tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very well laid out. Like a 20 year-old maiden on a blanket near a clear running stream. Waiting on you to explain the effects of bad power tubes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Very well laid out. Like a 20 year-old maiden on a blanket near a clear running stream. Waiting on you to explain the effects of bad power tubes.



I'll take that fishnet hotty for this fantasy hehe...


----------



## MartyStrat54

You like 'em a little thicker than I do, but that's okay. Big girls need love too.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What in the world? Not you guys too? Man the hormones are still raging. I guess I'd better watch out.


----------



## TwinACStacks

It's Springtime when young men's thoughts turn to flights of fancy.....

Yes Lisa, We are all hormonally challenged.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here she be Josh. I found it on Page Five. Now it will be bumped up because of my post. Hope you find it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jon Wilder is going to post some clarification on the operational aspect of a 6CA7 tube. There has been some misinformation handed down over the years, but the bottom line is that the 6CA7 is the little brother of the 6550. 

Stay tuned for Jon's report.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

In light of some recent research...

In past posts a few of us have referred to the EH6CA7 as nothing more than a 6L6 made to operate in an EL34 environment due to the fact that it is a beam power pentode like a 6L6/6550 and not a standard pentode like an EL34. New Sensor advertises it as a reproduction of the Sylvania 6CA7 "fat boy" valves. Yet this did not make sense since we noticed that the EH6CA7 has beam forming plates, which makes it a beam pentode and not a standard pentode like an EL34. Yet the 6CA7 was SUPPOSED to be the American equivalent to an EL34.

So Marty sends me some NOS Sylvania 6CA7 "fat boys" to go in the 2204 I'm doing up for him. Upon inspection of them I notice that they have beam forming plates! WTF!? This drove me to go in search of information regarding these highly desired gems.

I happened to find the original datasheet from Sylvania on the 6CA7. Sure enough, it's mentioned on the datasheet that it is a Beam Pentode.

In reading other posts while doing my research, I've found from several sources that the Sylvania 6CA7 fat boy valves are in fact a beam pentode that shares the pinout of an EL34 and shares identical operating characteristics.

Where did the confusion come in? Well for one it has been stated from countless sources that the 6CA7 is the American equivalent of an EL34. On top of that, various valve manuals list it as a standard power pentode and not a beam power pentode. Throw in the fact that lots of NOS 6CA7s are labeled "6CA7/EL34" and you get assumptions that they are 100% identical.

From what we know, apparently during the valve era there were some 6CA7s that were in fact regular power pentodes identical to EL34s. These were a "slim bottle" 6CA7 that look identical to an EL34. Well this makes sense...they didn't have to increase the size of the cage assembly to fit a suppressor grid on a standard pentode, but they damn sure had to in order to fit the beam plates on the beam versions, hence the fatter bottle on the fat boys.

The latest thing I read about the big bottle beam 6CA7s was that back in the valve age, the EL34 and 6L6GC were rivals, in the context of a bigger battle between pentode and beam tetrode technology. The EL34 won in Europe while the 6L6 conquered the States. The big bottle 6CA7 available in the States was a tube designed to be compatible with EL34 sockets in an effort to tread on Philips and Mullard's turf, while sticking with the preferred beam tetrode technology.



So, all this being said, the trend seems to be that the "slim bottle" 6CA7s were identical to the EL34 in that they were a standard pentode with a suppressor grid, whereas the "big bottle" 6CA7s were a beam pentode version that was a close cousin to the 6L6 (or some say the 6550). Tonally speaking, claims have been made that the beam 6CA7s sound like a middle ground between an EL34 and a 6550 (a tighter glassier sounding EL34). This also means that the EH6CA7 is in fact New Sensor/ElectroHarmonix's attempt at a Sylvania big bottle 6CA7 as they claim it to be. And from what I've seen of them appearance-wise they appear to be identical all the way down to the beam forming plates. But...

Is it really though? Do they sound identical to the real deal? Do they measure electrically identical on a curve tracer? Not sure as I don't own a curve tracer (they are WAY expensive) and I don't have a set of EH6CA7s here to compare to Marty's NOS Sylvanias (I just might have to order up a set now).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can send you a set Jon. That way you can do a proper A/B test. Let me know and I'll order them on Monday.

Great write up and it just goes to show that info that gets handed down by the "industry" may not always be right.

Just to add. Some of the articles that Jon researched made statements about RCA and 6CA7 tubes. RCA never made a 6CA7. They got their 6CA7's mainly from Sylvania.

Sylvania and GE made 6CA7's. Sylvania was the most popular brand and had great success with their 6550.

RCA did sell some of the slim 6CA7/EL34's that were made by Mullard. These are just EL34's.

As I told Jon, since the 6CA7 was compatible with the EL34, both part numbers appear on the tube. That's how you can date an EL34, the earlier versions only said EL34 on the tube. Both the European and American tube companies battled it out for sales, so both tubes were labeled EL34/6CA7. This is were an assumption was made about the two tubes being very similar. The fact is, they're not. Marketing hype was the cause of this misinformation.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can send you a set Jon. That way you can do a proper A/B test. Let me know and I'll order them on Monday.



Most definitely! Order 'em up!


----------



## solarburn

If you want boyz we could use mine. I have some KT-77's I could use in the mean time...

Whatcha think?


----------



## Wilder Amplification

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If you want boyz we could use mine. I have some KT-77's I could use in the mean time...
> 
> Whatcha think?



I've already tested yours. The electrons just don't seem to march in 3 abreast formation to the plate quite right and spiral down the grid spiral wires quite like they're supposed to. That and I think the cadence caller in the formation might have died at some point. 

I still gotta check Marty's and make sure the cadence caller for the electron formation in his didn't die of a cathode material derived coke overdose. 

Seriously, if you'd like to volunteer 'em I'm down. Or maybe we can use yours in addition to an ordered set and compare 'em, although that may not be an apples to apples comparison since yours have some time on them.


----------



## solarburn

Wilder Amplification said:


> I've already tested yours. The electrons just don't seem to march in 3 abreast formation to the plate quite right and spiral down the grid spiral wires quite like they're supposed to. That and I think the cadence caller in the formation might have died at some point.
> 
> I still gotta check Marty's and make sure the cadence caller for the electron formation in his didn't die of a coke overdose.
> 
> Seriously, if you'd like to volunteer 'em I'm down. Or maybe we can use yours in addition to an ordered set and compare 'em, although that may not be an apples to apples comparison since yours have some time on them.



Well if you want a "virgin" set than have Marty send some. Mine have been "violated" quite a bit...

Whatever's best for the test.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What if the EH's sound better? As to use the same line of thought as Joe when he said (in regard to the Twister), "What if he likes it?" This in fact came true. 

If that is the case, or they are close, than I would probably sell off my 6CA7's (except for the triple OOO one's).


----------



## Wilder Amplification

MartyStrat54 said:


> What if the EH's sound better?



That would be a pretty subjective assessment. I just want to see if they sound IDENTICAL, not necessarily "better" or "worse".

Of course if they do sound identical, they may not on a different amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I know. There are variables. Just like I am holding off my speaker testing until I get the 2204. I want to match a mixed pair of speakers to that head and a 1960A cab.


----------



## solarburn

I bet there will be audible differences even in the same circuit but it will be interesting anyways to find out how they compare. Also remember I'm still measuring mine for durability. One out of a pair went to drifting so was replaced. This test should just be for audio comparisons though.

I'm looking forward to it. I like lil' tests like this just to see...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just saw your SIG. You dirty boy.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just saw your SIG. You dirty boy.



She made me laugh with that one.


----------



## nedcronin

Hey folks I'm in need a retube on my TSL 60 and wanted some opinions on the tone difference between EL34L's and KT 77's. Cost dictates JJ tubes. Thoughts/ Opinions?
Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know why cost should be a factor. We're only talking about two power tubes.

Anyway, the JJ E34L is a big favorite. The KT77's are more of a 6L6 sound so they are a little tighter on the bottom and more high end sparkle.

It's okay to run JJ's in V3 and V4, but to run them in all four slots is a recipe for a dark sounding amp. If money is an issue, get a couple of EH 12AX7's, they're like ten bucks each and they won't darken the amp.

Personally, I would get a Tun-Sol for V1 a Mullard RI high gain for V2 and then JJ's or EH's for V3 and V4.


----------



## nedcronin

Well I need preamp tubes as well and a few bucks doesn't matter but I'm definately not shelling out a few hundred for NOS tubes or anything like that. I have used JJ's in the past and been satisfied but I don't like a real bright sound so maybe that's why. But to be honest I don't know enough about all of these different tubes to know which to get. I have heard good things about Tung sols but have never used one. I've had bad luck with EH tubes but they were in an amp I had some time ago when I bought it so maybe they were old. I also retubed a boogie with groove tubes and thought they sounded terrible. Anytime I used JJ's I noticed a nice warmth & punch that I liked personally. I find tone pretty subjective but what I was really looking for is the difference between the KT77's and EL34L's. 
Tube talk kind of reminds me of pickup discussions, everyone likes something different, and you can drive yourself nuts swapping out pickup after pickup. I worked in a music store many years ago and when throgh a pickup swap phase that cost me a bunch of dough and left me dissapointed, with a bunch of used pickups to get rid of. For the most part I found alot of the hyped pickups sounded either very much alike or just "not that good". 

So in a perfect scenario I'm sure there are better tubes, but I appreciate your opinions thanks much for the info. I think I'll take your advice and try your recipe for the preamp tubes.


----------



## nedcronin

Don't think the KT77's are for me then, I don't like alot of treble and I find the TSL 60 already delivers enough bass for me although with the old tubes I have in there it gets flabby. SO I think you have answered my question on that...
Ok, at the tube store site they have a set for the TSL, all JJ's all round, or the premium set which is 4 Tung SOls in the preamp and Winged C's in the power amp. I am wondering what the difference in tone will be? I'm temted to check out the Tung SOl and winged C route. Opinions?


----------



## nedcronin

disreguard double post can't figure out to delete it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you need to go with one brand? If so, the Tung-Sol and Winged =C='s.

However, I have to say if you are happy with the JJ sound, then go with what you are happy with.


----------



## nedcronin

Well I just called the only amp tech I know of and they told me 100 bucks in labor for a retube of my TSL60 and a TWO WEEK turnaround. That's not happening. So I think I will gamble and try to do this myself, I saw the video on how to do a dsl/tsl series on the Eurotubes site but I am wondering how I know which multimeter to buy? Any autoranging one? Will a cheap one work? Do ALL multimeters measure in millivolts? On this stuff I am lost although the procedure itself looks pretty easy to me. Any and all help / advice is appreciated...


----------



## Wilder Amplification

nedcronin said:


> Well I just called the only amp tech I know of and they told me 100 bucks in labor for a retube of my TSL60 and a TWO WEEK turnaround. That's not happening. So I think I will gamble and try to do this myself, I saw the video on how to do a dsl/tsl series on the Eurotubes site but I am wondering how I know which multimeter to buy? Any autoranging one? Will a cheap one work? Do ALL multimeters measure in millivolts? On this stuff I am lost although the procedure itself looks pretty easy to me. Any and all help / advice is appreciated...



I wouldn't use the cheap ones...another thing that Eurotubes preaches is OK to do. But it's already been stated on this forum as well as many others that the el cheapo meters are not very accurate.

Think about it this way...it's a one time cost. You buy the meter, and you can then bias your amp yourself and it won't cost you anything but for a new set of valves. That and you can do it on YOUR schedule, not on a shop's.

Once you've used the meter once, it will have paid for itself.

Here's a well priced auto ranging meter that would be perfect for biasing...runs $60.

15XP-B AMPROBE Digital Multimeters


----------



## nedcronin

Thanks again Jon, Hopefully my last question. I would set the range for 2 Volts, or is there a setting for milivolts? By the way, someone should make a how-to DVD for biasing an amp...I know I'm not the only one who wants to figure it out. I know what you are saying about it possibly being a danferous thing to do. I don't think I would attempt it if it wasn't such a simple procedure on the TSL. But I'm sure I'll have other amps down the road and it seems like a really good skill to learn.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

nedcronin said:


> Thanks again Jon, Hopefully my last question. I would set the range for 2 Volts, or is there a setting for milivolts? By the way, someone should make a how-to DVD for biasing an amp...I know I'm not the only one who wants to figure it out. I know what you are saying about it possibly being a danferous thing to do. I don't think I would attempt it if it wasn't such a simple procedure on the TSL. But I'm sure I'll have other amps down the road and it seems like a really good skill to learn.



If it doesn't have an "mV" scale, you would set it to the lowest DC voltage range. The number would appear as volts but in decimal format.

1mV is equal to 0.001V

So for a reading of 40mV, on your lowest voltage scale it would be 0.040V

I've thought about making a video regarding amplifier operation, biasing how-tos, etc etc. One of the main issues I see is with guys who run 6550/KT88 valves. They're a 35-40 watt dissipation valve so yes they CAN be biased hot...WHEN PLACED IN THE PROPER OPERATING ENVIRONMENT. However, this doesn't mean the power transformer can take that kind of a constant load on it, and this is something that NOBODY takes into consideration because they're stuck in the world of "the max dissipation rating of the valve governs the bias point" when in reality there are other factors involved with that.

For the 50/60 watt DSL/TSL amps running EL34s I find that a reading of 35-40mV between the center bias pin and each outer bias pin works really well tonally (max spec is 45mV). Double that for a 100 watt DSL/TSL.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Hey guys; first "tech" related post, and since I've got a question that is at least minimally 'power tube' related, I thought I'd fire it off here.

I've got a 1987xl Re-Issue that I'm going to take the current production Gold Lion KT77-plunge on; I'm looking for something a little fatter than the current production EL34's are capable of, these seem to be the ticket and, frankly, a really good pair fell into my lap. Where I'm tripping over myself, however, is on numbers I'd think to be essential before loading them into the chassis and hitting the "on" switch. 

While I've searched high and low for some specific info regarding plate voltage of the amp itself, I've only come up with what I consider an unreliable answer of 475; might be right, might be not. Also, despite extensive (for me, anyway) searching, I can't really come up with any reliable spec's on the voltage ratings of the KT77's and any biasing tips for these particular tubes anyone might have (suggested spec's, that sort of thing). I've been through this thread and the rest of the forum pretty thoroughly, but I've come up empty on this stuff. 

If I missed it somewhere, all I need is a pointer in the right direction and I can take it from there. Otherwise, feel free to fire away.

Thanks!


----------



## Wilder Amplification

Michael1987xl said:


> Hey guys; first "tech" related post, and since I've got a question that is at least minimally 'power tube' related, I thought I'd fire it off here.
> 
> I've got a 1987xl Re-Issue that I'm going to take the current production Gold Lion KT77-plunge on; I'm looking for something a little fatter than the current production EL34's are capable of, these seem to be the ticket and, frankly, a really good pair fell into my lap. Where I'm tripping over myself, however, is on numbers I'd think to be essential before loading them into the chassis and hitting the "on" switch.
> 
> While I've searched high and low for some specific info regarding plate voltage of the amp itself, I've only come up with what I consider an unreliable answer of 475; might be right, might be not. Also, despite extensive (for me, anyway) searching, I can't really come up with any reliable spec's on the voltage ratings of the KT77's and any biasing tips for these particular tubes anyone might have (suggested spec's, that sort of thing). I've been through this thread and the rest of the forum pretty thoroughly, but I've come up empty on this stuff.
> 
> If I missed it somewhere, all I need is a pointer in the right direction and I can take it from there. Otherwise, feel free to fire away.
> 
> Thanks!



They're rated for well and above what your 1987x will throw at them (800V plate/600V screen) if they share the same specs as the real Genalex KT77s.

Plate dissipation is 25 watts.

You'll have to measure your voltage on pin 3 and 4 of the output valve sockets while the amp is on in "play" mode. Pin 3 is your plate voltage while pin 4 is your screen voltage. The difference between these two readings is your screen current. 

If you bias via measuring cathode current such as using the Weber Bias Rite, you would then perform this equation -

(17500 / Plate Voltage) + Screen Current = Max Cathode Current in mA

So if your plate voltage is 460 and you measure a difference of 3 volts between plate and screen (pin 3 and 4 respectively) - 

(17500 / 460) + 3 = 41mA

Now...this is not a "absolutely must be set to 41mA". It means "do not set your cathode current to MORE THAN 41mA". Anything at or below that setting that sounds great is fair game.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Jon: I'm glad you popped in on this one.



Wilder Amplification said:


> They're rated for well and above what your 1987x will throw at them (800V plate/600V screen) if they share the same specs as the real Genalex KT77s.



Well, yes, that's the guessing game right there. I have a data sheet from Genalex for KT77's dating back to 1977; it's the same one that's floating around in a few places and it gives that spec. If the "re-issue" attention to detail is anywhere near the way they're being hyped, I'm going to assume that even if they can't handle 800V, they can still handle more than my 1987xl has on tap.



> If you bias via measuring cathode current such as using the Weber Bias Rite, you would then perform this equation -



In fact, my tech uses that piece, so I'll pass this along to him.

Thanks for the input!


----------



## Wilder Amplification

Michael1987xl said:


> I'm going to assume that even if they can't handle 800V, they can still handle more than my 1987xl has on tap.



And if they couldn't they shouldn't be marketing them for use in guitar amps.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Wilder Amplification said:


> And if they couldn't they shouldn't be marketing them for use in guitar amps.



Ah! To live in a perfect world!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Good Affordable 6L6's?*

Any suggestions on some good 6L6's that won't break the bank?


----------



## RiverRatt

*Re: Good Affordable 6L6's?*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Any suggestions on some good 6L6's that won't break the bank?



How many?


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! I just learned something on eBay. The 6L6GC is America's answer to the 6CA7!


----------



## Michael1987xl

*Re: Good Affordable 6L6's?*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Any suggestions on some good 6L6's that won't break the bank?



I put a set of the Tube Amp Doctor 6L6's in my Univox 1221 and my brother's mid-70's Bassman 50. I don't know what the general consensus on the board is about TAD stuff, but I think they sound great. They're real clean in my Univox up to about 6; then they really start to roar pretty good. Excellent bottom, clear highs...real nice for the price. In the Bassman, they seem to stay clean almost to the top.

As far as durability is concerned, they've been in my Univox for almost 2 years with no problems. The Bassman has had them for about 6 months now and gets gigged fairly regularly with no problems at all.

Tube store has 'em for about $45 a pair.
TAD 6L6GC-STR


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, TAD is one of the better relabelers. They do a better burn in and testing. They have their tubes built by Shuguang. Those black plate copies are pretty good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! I just learned something on eBay. The 6L6GC is America's answer to the 6CA7!



But of course, the 6CA7 was designed by Mullard, wasn't it?

That's so wrong. Going by how it is written, it assumes that the 6CA7 was around before the 6L6 and/or the 6L6GC. The 6CA7 came out after everyone had turned to transistors. They would be extremely scarce if it hadn't of been for Philips buying out Sylvania. As I said before, Philips ECG continued to make the full line of current power tubes 6V6, 6L6GC, 6CA7 and 6550 up until 1985 or so. After that, they started buying cheap Russian tubes and sticking them in their yellow and white boxes. 

I guess they had to "relabel" their boxes to say, "Country of origin marked on tube." Yeah, in very light ink and letters so small you need a magnifying glass.

Back to the tubes. I honestly don't know when the 6L6GC was introduced. I would say maybe 1962? The 6CA7 came out later, say 1965.I know Fender was one of the first to use 6L6GC's in their amps. Both of my Black Face Bassman's used two 6L6GC's in them and my tech said they were putting out 72 watts full blast. They were rated I think at 50 watts. Wish I still had them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Good Affordable 6L6's?*



RiverRatt said:


> How many?



Four


----------



## RiverRatt

*Re: Good Affordable 6L6's?*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Four



That makes it more difficult - I have a couple of spares but not four, and four of anything old is going to cost a good bit unless you're lucky on eBay. Check the Martimus stock and see if he has any of the old Ruskies left. SED is supposed to make a good 6L6 if you want to go CP but I haven't tried any yet. 

That pair of Japanese Realistic Lifetime tubes I bought a few months ago sound great and I got them for around $25 but they don't come along very often.

I did notice that there are a LOT of Sylvania 6L6GC's on eBay right now from the same seller that appear to be going cheap but most test "good" at 65%. At least the seller offers a 7-day return period.


----------



## nedcronin

Ok help me out here...does NOS stand for New Old Stock? Probably a stupid question but I'm askin' it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it does, but it is used loosely. They real acronym is ANOS (Almost New Old Stock). In other words, used tubes. Real NOS tubes are usually advertised as NOS/NIB (New In Box). These tubes are high dollar and usually cost four or five times as much as ANOS.

CP-Current Production


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Good Affordable 6L6's?*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Four



What are they going in. I have some 1967 Russian military 6L6GC's. Cheap at (PM me) per tube.


----------



## dave999z

I just have to vent...

I am having a bitch of a time getting a hold of a decent pair of Mullard xf2 (dual halo) EL34s from eBay. I need two matched pairs. I bought the first pair, and they bias up no problem. Bought the second pair, and one was dead (the guy took the return, but really how can that happen if someone actually tests the tube). Just bought a third "matched" pair this weekend, just popped them in, and they're not even close to matched. The calculated bias values are 62% and 53%. There's no way I can dial the bias so that both of those are in a usable range.

WTF! If NOS tubes are supposed to be so well built, then am I just getting shafted by dishonest sellers?

The worst thing is that I paid cash for these in person (to avoid the paypal fees) when I was up in Boston this weekend. I know the guy's name and number, but realistically what am I going to do go after him for $225 (that's what I paid)? Hopefully he'll be cool and take them back. If not, I guess I'll sell this NON-matched pair on eBay and learn the lesson that you do get something for those paypal fees... security.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, when it comes to tubes, let the buyer beware. Those old Mullards are great tubes, it's the "seller" that is ruining the deal. Most of the time, these guys don't even own a reputable tube tester. I just asked an EBAY seller the other day about a quad of fat boy 6CA7's. He stated that they were a matched quad. I noticed that the tubes were different in size and labeling. He replied that they were more like two matched pairs. WTF?

If you hang around here enough, you will find numerous EBAY listings that are dishonest as they are funny. I buy 6CA7's and I always have guys telling me they have some RCA's for sale. RCA never made a 6CA7. They bought them from Sylvania.

One of the more experienced female tube sellers on EBAY, Tina, tried to sell RCA 6CA7's as RCA. I sent her an email and she changed the listing. The sad part is a ignorant buyer will pay more for an RCA tube, because they feel they are the better tube.

I hope the seller takes the tubes back. Just explain to him that they are not matched and that they won't bias up in your amp. If he won't take them back, then sell them on EBAY. I had to do that recently with a quad of Philips ECG tubes. I got them and they were like 1988 Russian tubes. Junk. I made my money back. I felt bad as I don't do shit like that, but I resold them with the same wording as how I bought them.

A lot has to do with a reputable dealer that knows how to test tubes and match them. The greedy basturds are always quick to use the term "matched quad." When you buy outside of EBAY, then you leave yourself open for a screwing. Sometimes it's best to deal with a seller that accepts returns.


----------



## dave999z

If I resell them, I wouldn't list them as a matched pair. If I don't get as much for them as I paid, then it's my loss, but I'm not going to turn around and screw someone else.


----------



## solarburn

dave999z said:


> If I resell them, I wouldn't list them as a matched pair. If I don't get as much for them as I paid, then it's my loss, but I'm not going to turn around and screw someone else.



I won't buy tubes off ebay unless I had a tube tester to test them with. I have a couple of times with preamp tubes but the tubes were in the $25 range and recommended sellers. Turned out fine but when I want more NOS tubes I go with the guy with a tester and who makes good on what he sells me. When Marty runs out then I will be buying CP tubes. He is "my" NOS connection with the best prices. I use one other vendor from time to time but thats it. Their prices are always higher...

NOS is pretty risky without a tester and depending on sellers to make good on bad ones. Hopefully ya find some good ones like Marty does but he gets bad ones too. He knows how to deal with the process though. Goes with the territory. He's got to get them from somewhere.


----------



## dave999z

Yeah, I've bought tubes from Marty. They're great. But Marty doesn't have any xf2. (Right, Marty?)


----------



## MartyStrat54

That is correct. Christmas ate me up on power tubes and now I am having troubles locating any. Supposedly, I will have some RFT's available soon.

Power tube prices are fluctuating wildly on EBAY. I had this problem with Raytheon Black Plates. I just bought 40 BP's and 30 Sylvania GP's. I know a reputable seller for these tubes. I can always use them.


----------



## solarburn

dave999z said:


> Yeah, I've bought tubes from Marty. They're great. But Marty doesn't have any xf2. (Right, Marty?)



Thats when I go to my other source. I won't spend too much money on NOS any more though. For one I can't afford too and two I have learned to get what I like with what I have these days tone wise. I will get a few more from Marty. Got my eyes on the Mini-Watts and another HG BP. Hell if I had the money I'd buy all Marty's supply of BP's and yes to me they are that good.

Those damn NOS power tubes get expensive hehe. I heard Angus has a huge stash of Mullard's from what I've read he really likes them. Smart(and wealthy) guitar player.

If you do get a good pair I for one want to hear what ya think.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone know the story on these Ei 6CA7's? Are they really a 6CA7 or are they EL34's in a big bottle?

Trio of Ei Yugoslavia EL34 6CA7 Tubes - eBay (item 330438950203 end time Jun-07-10 13:27:27 PDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Anyone know the story on these Ei 6CA7's? Are they really a 6CA7 or are they EL34's in a big bottle?
> 
> Trio of Ei Yugoslavia EL34 6CA7 Tubes - eBay (item 330438950203 end time Jun-07-10 13:27:27 PDT)



These are real 6CA7's due to the fat bottle for the extra grid (tetrode). I love that they are made like an ECC83 with the ice cream cone top and smooth base. Sort of rare. I don't like the coin base and they aren't matched tubes or the seller would have stated such.


----------



## dave999z

friggin guy won't return my emails or phone calls. the thing is, this guy has very positive feedback on ebay (99.5% after nearly 2000 transactions), so this surprises me. since i didn't do the transaction on ebay, i have no way of leaving negative feedback. anyone know if there's some way to still place negative feedback for him on ebay? (i highly doubt it.)

don't buy anything from "wevtt" on ebay:

eBay My World - wevtt


or from his store, "West End Vacuum Tube Technology"

West End Vacuum Tube Technology items - Get great deals on Hi-Fi Vacuum Tubes items on eBay Stores!


If he makes this right, I'll come back and edit my post.


----------



## dave999z

so he finally responded and said he'd take them back, but insists i send them to his PO Box before he paypal's me the refund. he won't provide a physical address.

screw that, i don't trust him. if he paypal'd me the money, he'd be protected, so he has no good excuse not to. if i just send him the tubes, i'm at his mercy. i want a physical address so i can find him when he never credits me the money and i never hear from him again.

this dude is nothing but false advertising, stonewalling, and the runaround.

i'll just re-sell them (honestly) on eBay and probably eat the difference. though i think i might report him to eBay (even though we didn't complete the transaction through eBay).

what a douche.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a very unique group of people that sell tubes. Some know tubes and some know how to screw the customer. 

Yeah, he's put up a smoke screen and it makes you wonder what to do. 

It is probably best to resell them and move on. Take my advice and don't let this guy eat you up. He's not worth your time.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, TAD is one of the better relabelers. They do a better burn in and testing. They have their tubes built by Shuguang. Those black plate copies are pretty good.



I've been looking at these. They are the same tubes that Groove Tubes sells as their 6L6GC-GE. A lot of people have given them good reviews. I might try a set of the Shugangs - there's a dude on ebay selling them for $20 a quad, but they aren't matched.

*"They are part of a new factory lot and I test each tube (they are generally close but I do not have the equipment to match the tubes, so please do not ask)."*


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've been looking at these. They are the same tubes that Groove Tubes sells as their 6L6GC-GE. A lot of people have given them good reviews. I might try a set of the Shugangs - there's a dude on ebay selling them for $20 a quad, but they aren't matched.
> 
> *"They are part of a new factory lot and I test each tube (they are generally close but I do not have the equipment to match the tubes, so please do not ask)."*



Alan I bought a pair of these cause I liked yours so much I wanted to give them a run again.

From Doug's:

GT-EL34-M

Reproduction of a classic EL-34 XF2 Dual Getter tube. There were a number of variants of the original tube and GT chose the classic XF2 dual getter version to reproduce.

These sound great for R&R ala ACDC, GNR etc...I hear they are not making them anymore so If you want some get em' now. I have seen some feedback on these that they are very close to the Mullard XF2's. I say they sound great and sing nicely when soloing. I got the rating of 1-3. 

I don't like GT but the tube sounds great in a Marshall. Sweet mids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've been looking at these. They are the same tubes that Groove Tubes sells as their 6L6GC-GE.



Yeah these are the tubes that GT ran afoul on by saying, "Made in USA." Some government organization threatened to sue GT if they didn't retract.

That being said, they are supposed to be good tubes, but I would still get the TAD's if I was going to try them out.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alan I bought a pair of these cause I liked yours so much I wanted to give them a run again.
> 
> From Doug's:
> 
> GT-EL34-M
> 
> Reproduction of a classic EL-34 XF2 Dual Getter tube. There were a number of variants of the original tube and GT chose the classic XF2 dual getter version to reproduce.
> 
> These sound great for R&R ala ACDC, GNR etc...I hear they are not making them anymore so If you want some get em' now. I have seen some feedback on these that they are very close to the Mullard XF2's. I say they sound great and sing nicely when soloing. I got the rating of 1-3.
> 
> I don't like GT but the tube sounds great in a Marshall. Sweet mids.



I've still got my set. I'll probably hang on to them for spares in case my RFT's ever wear out (not likely no more than I've been playing). I've all but stopped rolling tubes, especially power tubes. I've pretty much got the tube compliment that I want, now I'm picking up effects that I've been putting off. I picked up a Deja Vibe awhile back, and I'm about to get an OCD. I might pull a Trower and go all Fulltone. So far I really like his stuff. I actually got on the web Tuesday to order the OCD and did an impulse buy instead. UPS just brought it by - now I have to sit and stare at it all afternoon. The neck is like buttah.


----------



## Dr. Rawk

I hear you all about N.O.S. tubes.

A great EL34 alternative for me and my main go to power tubes...

Ruby EL34BSTR Medium Breakup.

They give me everything I need in an EL34 with a huge beefed up low end EQ.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've still got my set. I'll probably hang on to them for spares in case my RFT's ever wear out (not likely no more than I've been playing). I've all but stopped rolling tubes, especially power tubes. I've pretty much got the tube compliment that I want, now I'm picking up effects that I've been putting off. I picked up a Deja Vibe awhile back, and I'm about to get an OCD. I might pull a Trower and go all Fulltone. So far I really like his stuff. I actually got on the web Tuesday to order the OCD and did an impulse buy instead. UPS just brought it by - now I have to sit and stare at it all afternoon. The neck is like buttah.



I have a V4 OCD in mint condition. I've had it for a few months. If you are interested let me know. Its for sale. Nice fiddle! 

Yeah I'm set to power tube wise. Just wanted to get a pair of the GT EL34M's.

Well I'm off to the dentist. Got to get a crown put on.

I'll ask more about the guitar when I get back.


----------



## solarburn

Dr. Rawk said:


> I hear you all about N.O.S. tubes.
> 
> A great EL34 alternative for me and my main go to power tubes...
> 
> Ruby EL34BSTR Medium Breakup.
> 
> They give me everything I need in an EL34 with a huge beefed up low end EQ.



Got a set already. I thought they were decent. I prefer the EH6CA7's in the DSL50 I have.


----------



## Dr. Rawk

I'll check 'em out


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dr. Rawk said:


> I hear you all about N.O.S. tubes.
> 
> A great EL34 alternative for me and my main go to power tubes...
> 
> Ruby EL34BSTR Medium Breakup.
> 
> They give me everything I need in an EL34 with a huge beefed up low end EQ.



For a relabeler, Ruby isn't bad. They have some good product and a good warranty. Better than most.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I Nice fiddle!
> 
> I'll ask more about the guitar when I get back.



Ask, Ask!

The neck on this byotch is incredible. Really fast and broken-in feeling. To top it off, I went to our little local music store to get some strings and found an EMG 89 humbucker and two EMG SA single coils for it that the guy let me have for $10!! (I'm having trouble with one of the SA's - if anybody has any EMG experience, jump over to my post under "Guitars").

I can't believe this is an under $200 guitar - it feels like a shred monster. The stock pickups and electronics aren't that good, but with a good setup and a few choice replacements, this thing is a player!

I've never used EMG's before, much less with a Marshall. I wouldn't put them in my Les Paul, but in this guitar they make it sound and feel like a custom-shop shredder. The red channel on the DSL is my friend again!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ask, Ask!
> 
> The neck on this byotch is incredible. Really fast and broken-in feeling. To top it off, I went to our little local music store to get some strings and found an EMG 89 humbucker and two EMG SA single coils for it that the guy let me have for $10!! (I'm having trouble with one of the SA's - if anybody has any EMG experience, jump over to my post under "Guitars").
> 
> I can't believe this is an under $200 guitar - it feels like a shred monster. The stock pickups and electronics aren't that good, but with a good setup and a few choice replacements, this thing is a player!
> 
> I've never used EMG's before, much less with a Marshall. I wouldn't put them in my Les Paul, but in this guitar they make it sound and feel like a custom-shop shredder. The red channel on the DSL is my friend again!



What brand is that guitar? Man it sounds like you got a hell of a deal there. The only experience I have with EMG's is a 81/60 combo. I'm going to put in a 85 in the bridge and move the 81 to neck. I like passives better though. Better dynamics. I'm not a high gain player much though. Anyways cool guitar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've never owned a guitar with EMG's or any other active pickup. I know that they make some artists' sound. I've always been happy with say a DiMarzio Distortion Plus in the bridge and a ballsy amp.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never owned a guitar with EMG's or any other active pickup. I know that they make some artists' sound. I've always been happy with say a DiMarzio Distortion Plus in the bridge and a ballsy amp.



Oh yeah! Meat!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What brand is that guitar? Man it sounds like you got a hell of a deal there. The only experience I have with EMG's is a 81/60 combo. I'm going to put in a 85 in the bridge and move the 81 to neck. I like passives better though. Better dynamics. I'm not a high gain player much though. Anyways cool guitar.



http://www.axlguitars.com/images/GP-Badwater_11-07.pdf

AXL Guitars

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwgh1bCg95Y"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwgh1bCg95Y[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> http://www.axlguitars.com/images/GP-Badwater_11-07.pdf
> 
> AXL Guitars
> 
> YouTube - AXL Badwater SRO Electric Guitar, AS-820



Cool. Thanx Alan. Never checked these out before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He likes it. Marty likes it. 

What a bargain for a $200 guitar.


----------



## Michael1987xl

For any of you EL84 guys, I was looking at the Gold Lions to replace the stock tube in my Class 5 since I had such good luck with the Gold Lion KT77's in my 1987xl. They're Out of Stock and when I inquired when they'd have more, I got this from the Tube Store:

_Hi Michael,
We have discontinued our sales of the Gold Lion EL84 due to an incredibly high failure rate over the past 6-8 months or so. We love the sound if it but have decided to wait several months and hope that the newer batchs are more reliable. _

Be advised.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the heads up, that's shocking and a surprise. I always figured they were a premier tube maker, because of their KT88's.


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for the heads up, that's shocking and a surprise. I always figured they were a premier tube maker, because of their KT88's.



Yeah, no kidding. The Gold Lion KT77's I put in my amp sound awesome and, knock on wood, no problems so far, but you can bet I'll be keeping stinky eye on 'em for a while now. 

From the price of the GL's and the hype surrounding them, clearly New Sensor has been making the move towards touting them as their "Premier" line. That's a pretty bad black eye for them. I've been doing business with the Tube Store for a while and even though they've several times steered me away from some tubes (often towards less expensive ones), I've never gotten anything like that from them before.


----------



## solarburn

Michael1987xl said:


> Yeah, no kidding. The Gold Lion KT77's I put in my amp sound awesome and, knock on wood, no problems so far, but you can bet I'll be keeping stinky eye on 'em for a while now.
> 
> From the price of the GL's and the hype surrounding them, clearly New Sensor has been making the move towards touting them as their "Premier" line. That's a pretty bad black eye for them. I've been doing business with the Tube Store for a while and even though they've several times steered me away from some tubes (often towards less expensive ones), I've never gotten anything like that from them before.



Yeah much thanx for the news. Always good to know. I like the Tube Store. They replaced a 6CA7 that went drifting and it was even a bit past warranty too...by 14 days. Still they were on it no hesitation. Perfect pair number matched right up with the other one. 

Been using them for awhile too. Them and Doug's Tubes.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I thought Gold Lion's were the best. Oh well, I don't use them.

Oh, "Hello Joe."


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I thought Gold Lion's were the best. Oh well, I don't use them.
> 
> Oh, "Hello Joe."



Hi doll!

Better late than never hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys taken the Tone King tube test? See if you can pick out the Mesa 5881/6L6, Mesa EL34 and the NOS Mullard. 

Can’t decide on Power Tubes? TTK has you covered! : The Tone King | TheToneKing.com

It's easy to tell the 2 EL34's in the test. Shame on you if you can't tell which one is the Mullard. If you watch the first video, the one where the tubes are blacked out, go back and forth and listen to a little sample of each tube. I thought the Mullard and the Mesa sounded similar, but the Mullard has a smoother, more defined tone.


----------



## Wycked Lester

RiverRatt said:


> Any of you guys taken the Tone King tube test? See if you can pick out the Mesa 5881/6L6, Mesa EL34 and the NOS Mullard.
> 
> Can’t decide on Power Tubes? TTK has you covered! : The Tone King | TheToneKing.com
> 
> It's easy to tell the 2 EL34's in the test. Shame on you if you can't tell which one is the Mullard. If you watch the first video, the one where the tubes are blacked out, go back and forth and listen to a little sample of each tube. I thought the Mullard and the Mesa sounded similar, but the Mullard has a smoother, more defined tone.



sounds like his mic's are a lil out of phase. My vote is for tube 1..obviously the 6l6


----------



## MartyStrat54

I feel asleep. That guy is "boring."


----------



## siav

I have opened a thread under Workbench, maybe you guys can help?
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/15165-filament-sound-when-shaking-winged-c-el34s.html

Thanks!


----------



## LpPepper

I just called up a shop to see how much a re-tube of my dsl401 would cost. - Jimi's Music Store - Home

The guy said "EL84's are self biasing" , thats just bull right? 

And are TAD EL84's any good ? thats what he said they have in stock.


----------



## solarburn

LpPepper said:


> I just called up a shop to see how much a re-tube of my dsl401 would cost. - Jimi's Music Store - Home
> 
> The guy said "EL84's are self biasing" , thats just bull right?
> 
> And are TAD EL84's any good ? thats what he said they have in stock.



Only if the amp is cathode biased or set up to self bias. My Monza and Night Train are cathode biased but not all EL84 amps are cathode biased. The amp has to be set up for self bias. A tube doesn't create that of itself...

I'm not a tech by the way so I'm going by what I've learned here. Leave room for error then hehe.


----------



## mike sicowitz

Hi all, 
I have amps with 34s and 66s, I'll take the 66s-they just give me inspiration when I hear that crude sound campaired to the uniform 34s. They are great for getting the most out of a really costly guitar, forget pedals-not needed or wanted with an R Gibson of even a 335. I suppose on a strat the 34s are all right if you do bombs and know what you are doing. But for 'KISS' just a cord and your ax with the 66s.
Mike


----------



## Roadburn

I don't think my 900 would benefit from N.O.S. tubes so I wouldn't spend money on them for that amp.
I did hear more defined mid-range tones which "rolled" a bit more then "new" EL34's though. 
I think that if I had and old-school amp, I would eventually save up for a set of of N.O.S. tubes.
Not a fan of the 6L6.

Does anyone know if the amp used in that ToneKing film is based on a certain type of amp? I can imagine that different amps give different outcomes in the test.


----------



## RiverRatt

AFAIK, the Univalve uses THD's own proprietary design. Tone King's tests aren't the most scientific. You don't realize how much his recording setup is coloring the sound until you hear one of the amps in person. If you buy or try an amp and expect it to sound like it does in his videos, you're going to be disappointed.


----------



## rykus

hey marty is the tina you deal with have 240 in her ebay name? i think if this is the same seller that i have bought multiple times from . she seems honest and for a while would end all her actions at once....kinda stopped the last minuite bidders from scoreing all the tubes. and she combines shipping! just checking, i got a couple really stellar deals from her an she had alot of loosely matched mullard xf2 tube sets that all sold in the low 200 range. i see she holds her really high end stuff for buy it now way out of my range though. i found if you look there is some really good nib nos sellers and prices aren't always as high as one might think... i previously would buy RI mullards that were platnuim matched in octets so id have spares, but really it cost about the same as the higher quallity nos and the thought of loosing a transformer just so i could save$$ on tubes seemed a little silly. also for all those tiered of paying and waiting for techs to put tubes in, buy a good meter and learn, its not as scary as you'd think and VERY rewarding..... one hand behind your back.... i got a compu bias and it seems idiot proof, cost a bit more but my math skills aren't what they once where so it was worth it to me, and now i save every time i want to re tube wich also makes getting the good tubes that much cheaper. also since ya'll got to talkin bout pick ups i thought i'd throw out there if you like a dynamic pick up with some fight in it the seymore antiquity is just awsome for me. not wax potted and squeals and feeds back but very dynamic usable and sounds unreal with a nice cranked amp. also tried an older duncan distortion i think didn't like it, tried an invader ceramic, good out put but not dynamic better of with a pedal... same for the actives tried the emg's in a metal guitar, good out put super usable volume control but didn't transfer playing dynamics as well, less feedback ect ect. just my .02, but i like some fight and feedback more than defined consistent sound. but hey who the hell am i some people like it and whenever i read reviews about the gear i own it usually say no good for metal... i'm scratching my head thinken well its workin for me! peace
doug


----------



## MartyStrat54

Roadburn said:


> I don't think my 900 would benefit from N.O.S. tubes so I wouldn't spend money on them for that amp.
> I did hear more defined mid-range tones which "rolled" a bit more then "new" EL34's though.
> I think that if I had and old-school amp, I would eventually save up for a set of of N.O.S. tubes.
> Not a fan of the 6L6.
> 
> Does anyone know if the amp used in that ToneKing film is based on a certain type of amp? I can imagine that different amps give different outcomes in the test.



Ah, you have a 2100. Isn't that the SL-X? If so, it has a tube preamp. It is different from the 900DR Series. The SL-X is a nice amp. Let me know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rykus said:


> hey marty is the tina you deal with have 240 in her ebay name? i think if this is the same seller that i have bought multiple times from . she seems honest and for a while would end all her actions at once....kinda stopped the last minuite bidders from scoreing all the tubes. and she combines shipping! just checking, i got a couple really stellar deals from her an she had alot of loosely matched mullard xf2 tube sets that all sold in the low 200 range. i see she holds her really high end stuff for buy it now way out of my range though. i found if you look there is some really good nib nos sellers and prices aren't always as high as one might think... i previously would buy RI mullards that were platnuim matched in octets so id have spares, but really it cost about the same as the higher quallity nos and the thought of loosing a transformer just so i could save$$ on tubes seemed a little silly. also for all those tiered of paying and waiting for techs to put tubes in, buy a good meter and learn, its not as scary as you'd think and VERY rewarding..... one hand behind your back.... i got a compu bias and it seems idiot proof, cost a bit more but my math skills aren't what they once where so it was worth it to me, and now i save every time i want to re tube wich also makes getting the good tubes that much cheaper. also since ya'll got to talkin bout pick ups i thought i'd throw out there if you like a dynamic pick up with some fight in it the seymore antiquity is just awsome for me. not wax potted and squeals and feeds back but very dynamic usable and sounds unreal with a nice cranked amp. also tried an older duncan distortion i think didn't like it, tried an invader ceramic, good out put but not dynamic better of with a pedal... same for the actives tried the emg's in a metal guitar, good out put super usable volume control but didn't transfer playing dynamics as well, less feedback ect ect. just my .02, but i like some fight and feedback more than defined consistent sound. but hey who the hell am i some people like it and whenever i read reviews about the gear i own it usually say no good for metal... i'm scratching my head thinken well its workin for me! peace
> doug



Yeah I deal with Tina and so have several of the gang here. Hey, I close auctions early all the time. I'd rather pay an EBAY fee, than to loose my shirt on an item. It's just business strategy. It's nice to be able to try stuff out. It gives you some experience with what to expect from certain types of stuff, whether it be guitar, pickups or speakers. 

And what you say is something I have always said. "If it works for you, that's all that matters."


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike sicowitz said:


> Hi all,
> I have amps with 34s and 66s, I'll take the 66s-they just give me inspiration when I hear that crude sound campaired to the uniform 34s. They are great for getting the most out of a really costly guitar, forget pedals-not needed or wanted with an R Gibson of even a 335. I suppose on a strat the 34s are all right if you do bombs and know what you are doing. But for 'KISS' just a cord and your ax with the 66s.
> Mike



How many people have real playing time on KT66's?

I've only dicked around with an older Bluesbreaker RI. I know that Marshall made 100 watt KT66 heads and that a lot of people sub KT66's for 6L6's. I hear a lot of good things about this tube.

Any comments?


----------



## Roadburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ah, you have a 2100. Isn't that the SL-X? If so, it has a tube preamp. It is different from the 900DR Series. The SL-X is a nice amp. Let me know.



It's a JCM 900 100W hi gain Master Volume MkIII (left to right, looking into the back: Sovtek 12AX7WB, 12AX7WA, 12AX7WA. Power section 4x EH EL34's).
I remember getting some nice crunch tones from it. But it has been 6 years now since it has been turned on. Never been able to check the "patch loop" trick... I learned about it a couple of months ago, when I first started reading these forums. Don't have a cab at the moment.

Shame I didn't get me an 800 which was $100 more expensive. It didn't go to 20...  (biggest mistake ever...)


----------



## thrawn86

When you guys get a minute here, I have a question......nothing pressing, just a query.

A member was asking about the Haze line, and I am aware that the 15w head is a 6v6 design. How do they differ from the EL34's in terms of sound quality?


----------



## Gtarzan81

6v6s were used in early smaller fenders, before they switched to 6L6's IIRC

This might explain why some people have quibbles with the tone of the Haze line.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 6V6 is built the same as a 6L6, but it has a lower power rating. Basically, a 6V6 and an EL84 are about the same in power output. 10 watts is about the norm. Personally, I like the sound of the EL84's over the 6V6. A lot of the old Fenders used 6V6's (back before "bedroom" amps were popular).

The EL34 versus the 6V6? The EL34 is a more gritty tube when pushed and because of it's design it has a lot more headroom than a 6V6. However, Marshall is running EL34's at much lower plate voltages in several of their amps such as the HAZE and this will alter tone compared to a hot biased 100 watt amp running EL34's. The HAZE is pulling only 40 watts out of two EL34's. This means that the B+ is probably below 400VDC.

The Egnater Rebel uses both EL84's and 6V6's and you can use either separately, or you can mix them together. I tried the amp out and the 6V6's sounded alright pushed, but I am so used to the EL84's as they sounded much better.


----------



## thrawn86

Thanx Marty. I had kinda wondered if they were closer to an EL84.


----------



## RiverRatt

IMO the 6V6 gets too muddy and compressed when driven too hard. My old Princeton Reverb was only useful up to about 7 or 8 on the volume control. It didn't get any louder, just more distorted. The EL84 has more detail and chime and crunches very nicely when you really drive 'em.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Eggsactly!


----------



## siav

thanks to Marty, I have biased my 2555 with Winged =C= (plate voltage 475V and bias at about 33mA to 35mA).
Tone wise, when using 25W, the tone is really clearer than the EHs I had in there. More mids, more defined.
I'm not really good in explaining these things.... but I'm happy with those tubles.
I'm gonna throw also in my 6101 and see how it sounds.


----------



## Madaxeman

I just tried some EH EL34's in my 2550 after my winged c's finally gave up. I've given them a two week trial and can't get on with them at all. I just wanted to try something different for change, I still like the Svet winged C's a lot but just fancied a change. Now I've got some NOS RFT (Siemens) EL34's on the way. Not sure if they will handle a plate voltage of 460v (I heard a rumor they are only tested to 400v) but If these don't work out, I'm going back the winged C's. Great Valves for the money. 
A while ago I was running Mullard XF2's, now those I miss. Nothing I've used yet gets close, just can't afford them any more. Anyone here got any experience of RFT's ?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been running a pair of RFT EL34's for about a year. They are rock-solid and sound better than anything else I've tried. I don't have the money for XF-2's and these are a good compromise between cost and tone.


----------



## solarburn

Alan I got to tell you I really like these GT 34M's. Classic rock personified man. The mids on these are sweet and my amp really sings with them. Highs are clear and musical(not sharp) and the lows are fat and warm. Not as tight as some but not loose either. 

I just got done A/B'ing them with my 6CA7EH's and I have to say I like the 34M's better because of those mids. The 6CA7's came off a bit scooped in comparison and I really liked them. It was like using a GT-75 speaker(6CA7EH)and running it against a broken in Greenback(34M).

These are based off the Mullard XF2's but I have never played a pair in my amp so I don't know how close they are but regardless I like how they sound in mine. Excellent for classic rock stuff. I think those who like modern or high gain stuff would choose differently. 

I'll have to A/B these 34M's with my RFT's and see how they compare.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> If you're considering current production power tubes, my favorites are the GT EL34M or Winged C. IMO the Winged C tubes do everything pretty well and have a fairly tight low end response, and the EL34M's are a little warmer with looser bass and smoother upper mids and highs. If you like old-school *AC/DC* rhythm tones, _*Def Leppard*_, and other classic rock along those lines, pony up for a set of RFT EL34's. They will cost you about double the Winged C's or GT's but they'll last about 2 or 3 times as long and have that classic Marshall sound in spades. I love cranking the DSL up at least to 4 or 5 with the RFT's on the Classic clean channel. I roll off the presence and even the treble a little and it nails the pre-Back in Black Malcolm Young tones.
> 
> Also remember that power tubes respond way differently depending on how they are biased. The EL34M's seem to like to be biased about 6mV colder than the RFT's or Winged C's. I've been running my amp at 42mV with the RFT's ever since I got them from Marty whenever that was, and they don't drift at all. I can check them after 3 months and they won't be more than a few tenths from where I left them. With the CP tubes I felt like I had to keep a constant watch on them.



OK... Now you've got my attention! ... ... I may have to look into this a little more (I play a lot of stuff off "High 'N Dry")... 

... I've been using JJ EL34L's in my TSL almost since I bought it (it came w/ Sveltlana's that were on death's door). They've done the job, but as I have learned from rolling preamp tubes w/ ya'll, tubes make a lot of difference in your tone. Plus I seldom have opportunity to crank it up balls to the walls... You guys (all ya'll) l know I'm pretty much 97.2% an at home player, do you think, tonally and $$$-wise, that the RFT's are worth it for a guy like me?

Mr. Maximus... Anything to add?


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, you're confusing my already fuddled brain. I keep thinking I've clicked on the wrong thread. 

I've never rolled power tubes the way we do preamp tubes, mainly because it takes so long. You have to bias them up and dial them in, and I swear that some power tubes don't really start to warm up and sound good until 30 minutes after you power up. There was a noticeable difference in the tone and feel of the amp when I put the RFT's in. If you don't ever get to crank your amp up fairly loud, you may not notice as much of a difference. If I had the time and equipment, I'd love to do a comparison with my DSL and Les Paul. Just hit an open A chord and record it until it fades. So many of the clips you here are people who are trying to impress you with their playing and not really giving you a good sample of how the tube actually sounds; the harmonic content, the decay, which overtones start to dominate as the chord fades, all that.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

joshuaaewallen said:


>



What are the condom type of things for?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It prevents any leakage which could make baby tubes.

Those are anti-harmonic rings. They prevent the glass from oscillating resulting in less chance of tube microphonics.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> What are the condom type of things for?





MartyStrat54 said:


> It prevents any leakage which could make baby tubes.
> 
> Those are anti-harmonic rings. They prevent the glass from oscillating resulting in less chance of tube microphonics.



 Oh my word... You guys just about made me fall out of my chair laughing! "prevent leakage". Ha! LOL!!! If that's what they do I probably should take them off and breed them! It'd be like a puppy mill only more electrifying.

... Or maybe I just find that hilarious because I'm slightly liquored up (I have a rotten cold and am trying desperately to knock myself out)... Eh... Either way... I am a laughin'. Rock on guys!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It prevents any leakage which could make baby tubes.



He's not kidding. I used to leave my tubes loose in a box together... look what happened.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh, you're confusing my already fuddled brain. I keep thinking I've clicked on the wrong thread.
> 
> I've never rolled power tubes the way we do preamp tubes, mainly because it takes so long. You have to bias them up and dial them in, and I swear that some power tubes don't really start to warm up and sound good until 30 minutes after you power up. There was a noticeable difference in the tone and feel of the amp when I put the RFT's in. If you don't ever get to crank your amp up fairly loud, you may not notice as much of a difference. If I had the time and equipment, I'd love to do a comparison with my DSL and Les Paul. Just hit an open A chord and record it until it fades. So many of the clips you here are people who are trying to impress you with their playing and not really giving you a good sample of how the tube actually sounds; the harmonic content, the decay, which overtones start to dominate as the chord fades, all that.



If I'm lucky... And I seal the house up tight as a drum... I can get 'er up to 4 or five on the high side. But that ain't two often. At that level, even w/ the VPN on... If ya value yer hearing ya don't wanna be sittin' in front of that baby!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh, you're confusing my already fuddled brain. I keep thinking I've clicked on the wrong thread...



You know me bro. I always do what I can!


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

MartyStrat54 said:


> It prevents any leakage which could make baby tubes.
> 
> Those are anti-harmonic rings. They prevent the glass from oscillating resulting in less chance of tube microphonics.



LMAO!!!

Where csn I get those rings?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... These are the things that they don't teach you in public schools...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> LMAO!!!
> 
> Where can I get those rings?



Well I can tell you where to get them, but you have to put them on yourself. You know, STD's (Serious Tube Dysfunction).

UummmI looked all over and can only find the high priced ones.

Josh, do you remember that EBAY seller off hand?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I can tell you where to get them, but you have to put them on yourself. You know, STD's (Serious Tube Dysfunction).
> 
> UummmI looked all over and can only find the high priced ones.
> 
> Josh, do you remember that EBAY seller off hand?



Remember? Man right now I can barely remember my name! After putting down an entire bottle of wine I still can't get sleep... Which sucks sinse I slept about 3 hours last night...

Let's starrrt w/ this... Which eBay seller are you referring to?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sorry... Not usually so out of it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's not a big deal. We can do it later, like next month.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Found it. It was Sandy Photo. Here is a link. Contact here with what tubes you have and she will sell you a kit.

TUBE AMP/PREAMP DAMPERS FOR 12AX7/12AU7/ECC83/EL84/6922 - eBay (item 370389848913 end time Jun-30-10 21:02:04 PDT)

If you have to paste, it is item # 370389848913


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Found it. It was Sandy Photo. Here is a link. Contact here with what tubes you have and she will sell you a kit.
> 
> TUBE AMP/PREAMP DAMPERS FOR 12AX7/12AU7/ECC83/EL84/6922 - eBay (item 370389848913 end time Jun-30-10 21:02:04 PDT)
> 
> If you have to paste, it is item # 370389848913



Ahh... Ya beat me to it... After I slapped myself a few times I figured out what we talking about... Again... And found the seller in my "Favorite Sellers" is in My eBay. Anyhoo... Ya'll have it covered, so... Have a great night!

sandyphoto items - Get great deals on Electronics, Musical Instruments items on eBay.com!


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Thanks guys they will fit on all of my 800's tubes, but since the VM uses KT66's I can only put those rings on the preamp tubes. I haven't found an ad that sells these rings for KT66's yet.


----------



## RiverRatt

Go to your local auto parts store and check out their supply of rubber "O" rings. I'll bet they have one that'll fit a KT66. Take one along and try them on for size - the salesperson will probably tell that story for awhile


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Go to your local auto parts store and check out their supply of rubber "O" rings. I'll bet they have one that'll fit a KT66. Take one along and try them on for size - the salesperson will probably tell that story for awhile





Lespaulnmarshall said:


> Thanks guys they will fit on all of my 800's tubes, but since the VM uses KT66's I can only put those rings on the preamp tubes. I haven't found an ad that sells these rings for KT66's yet.



I'd contact the seller. When I talked w/ them they had other odd ball stuff besides what was listed. Or... Run w/ Alan's plan. That'd probably work too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'd contact the seller. When I talked w/ them they had other odd ball stuff besides what was listed. Or... Run w/ Alan's plan. That'd probably work too.



*Lespaulnmarshall:* I found 'em for you. It looks like those tube "condom looking things" do come in Magnum's... Here's a link...

4 TUBE AMP DAMPERS FOR KT88/KT66 2A3 TUBES KT-88 KT-66 - eBay (item 350361441553 end time Jun-30-10 21:06:35 PDT)

Have a good one.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Great probably i'll go buy a set of them soon.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'd contact the seller. When I talked w/ them they had other odd ball stuff besides what was listed. Or... Run w/ Alan's plan. That'd probably work too.



They do work. I bought a couple to use on my GE 6L6's and although they didn't seem to make much difference in the sound, they didn't melt or anything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, I would love to find one of these headphone amps used. Damn this is a nice one. (From Sandy Photo.)


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn, I would love to find one of these headphone amps used. Damn this is a nice one. (From Sandy Photo.)



What the hey is that thing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That is a stereo tube headphone amplifier. It produces some of the most earth shattering sounds possible. Sweet, tight mids, smooth articulate highs, and bass that just freezes you in your seat.

The one's from the late 50's are now over a grand.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Any EL84 suggestions other than the RI Mullard?


----------



## solarburn

Gtarzan81 said:


> Any EL84 suggestions other than the RI Mullard?



RFT EL84's.


----------



## Gtarzan81

solarburnDSL50 said:


> RFT EL84's.



How much do those run normally? I need only 1 at the moment, but $100, 000, 000 per tube is outta my league......


----------



## solarburn

Gtarzan81 said:


> How much do those run normally? I need only 1 at the moment, but $100, 000, 000 per tube is outta my league......



Look at these to get an idea...

EL84 6BQ5 E84L 7189 CV2975 6pi14pi-ev EL84M 7320


----------



## RiverRatt

Gtarzan81 said:


> How much do those run normally? I need only 1 at the moment, but $100, 000, 000 per tube is outta my league......



You have to try the 6P14P-ER (looks like 6n14n-EP in Cyrillic). They are insanely affordable and put my Amperex Bugle Boy EL84 to shame. They are one of the best EL84's out there, period. Make sure the numbers match exactly. There are some 6P14P's that have a different suffix that are lower quality tubes. The ER's are military spec and rated for like 10,000 hours of use. Marty turned me on to these awhile back. I don't know if he has any more or not - he said he was running low last I heard.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You have to try the 6P14P-ER (looks like 6n14n-EP in Cyrillic). They are insanely affordable and put my Amperex Bugle Boy EL84 to shame. They are one of the best EL84's out there, period. Make sure the numbers match exactly. There are some 6P14P's that have a different suffix that are lower quality tubes. The ER's are military spec and rated for like 10,000 hours of use. Marty turned me on to these awhile back. I don't know if he has any more or not - he said he was running low last I heard.



Marty's 6P14P were from 67'. The ones they have at Tubemonger are from the 80's. I don't know if they would be as good. You are right about how good the 67's are. I'd say the RFT's have a bit smoother OD but i would take either. Well actually I have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have four left and also some gray and black plate Sylvania's.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty's 6P14P were from 67'. The ones they have at Tubemonger are from the 80's. I don't know if they would be as good. You are right about how good the 67's are. I'd say the RFT's have a bit smoother OD but i would take either. Well actually I have.



Yeah, you have to push the 6P14P's harder, and here's also a noticeable volume boost over other EL84's. I tried it in at least 3 different 5 watt amps and I liked them better in every one. 

I haven't tried an RFT EL84, but based on my experience with the EL34's they have to be a good tube.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have four left and also some gray and black plate Sylvania's.



PM me with prices please.


----------



## rykus

i just got in some rft el84's that tested really strong, 60 on a tv-7 tester where 48 in nos. they where about 50 bucks from germany 15 for shipping but i also ordered 2 other types from the same seller so.... not too bad. i'll post up the sound difference when my class 5 arrives.... right now my only el84 amp is a mesa f30, and i don't know if i want to throw any money on tubes in it. kinda sounds like a mesa with those CP chinese tubes. i used to own a silvertone with rca 6v6's (all stock) and i loved the super muddy drive tones, but i had too mike it up, i like it more than my mesa el84 tone but thats probly not too fair a comparison. ill post up some reviews when the little marshall arrives. i'm soo stoked on the idea of a mini marshall with basket weave!


----------



## solarburn

rykus said:


> i just got in some rft el84's that tested really strong, 60 on a tv-7 tester where 48 in nos. they where about 50 bucks from germany 15 for shipping but i also ordered 2 other types from the same seller so.... not too bad. i'll post up the sound difference when my class 5 arrives.... right now my only el84 amp is a mesa f30, and i don't know if i want to throw any money on tubes in it. kinda sounds like a mesa with those CP chinese tubes. i used to own a silvertone with rca 6v6's (all stock) and i loved the super muddy drive tones, but i had too mike it up, i like it more than my mesa el84 tone but thats probly not too fair a comparison. ill post up some reviews when the little marshall arrives. i'm soo stoked on the idea of a mini marshall with basket weave!



Cool. Be interested in what you think of the RFT's...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RFT = Really Fine Tubes. Those boys knew how to make a fine line of tubes.

They were also good at selling blank bottles to other companies so they could relabel the tubes.


----------



## rykus

right after i posted earlier i got the call...... marshall is in, and on my day off what better luck could a guy have! so far i've only tried it with my strat dropped down to d. sounded super thick and ballsy but gets a little flubbed out past 7 with everything cranked, all at half it has killer pick dynamics and once again really full sounding even with single coils! i'm going to get my les pauls from the jam room in a bit so i can try it with hums/p90's and get a bit better idea of the sounds before i pop in those rft/ telefunken/ valvo el84's. bias meter is armed and ready and i got a good handfull of my favorite pre tubes put aside aswell..... let the tests begin! i don't know yet how the hell i'm gonna post sound clips but i'll try and get on that once i get some play time in. cheers 
doug


----------



## Gtarzan81

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, you have to push the 6P14P's harder, and here's also a noticeable volume boost over other EL84's. I tried it in at least 3 different 5 watt amps and I liked them better in every one.
> 
> I haven't tried an RFT EL84, but based on my experience with the EL34's they have to be a good tube.



I'm grabbing a few of the soviets from Marty. We are finalizing things over PM. 
I will likely order 2 CP Tung Sols also, and have the Class 5 straight out smokin! 

N.B. I've got good video gear, and a Rode Video mic, so any clips I take will be solid. I will post some up at some point. I might do an A/B with stock vs new possibly.


----------



## Jack92CH

Would Svetlana EL34s improve the midrange of a DSL opposed to JJ E34Ls? The JJs in it already are cooked and I've been looking to make a tube change. They sounded pretty good, but not quite enough like the sound I have in my mind. Thanks guys.


----------



## RiverRatt

Not the current production Svetlana. The SED Winged C is the real Svetlana, they just can't call it that because New Sensor owns the Svetlana brand name in the US and sells a tube under that name that's manufactured by Reflektor in the Saratov factory. The SED is still made in the St. Petersburg Svetlana factory and is a much better tube. The Groove Tubes EL34M has good mids, too. My experience with the JJ's is that they have decent lows but are a little on the harsh side in the upper mids and highs. If you want to pony up for some RFT EL34's, they will cost roughly twice what the Russian stuff sells for, but they will last longer and have the best mids you can get without getting into the really high-dollar stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jack92CH said:


> Would Svetlana EL34s improve the midrange of a DSL opposed to JJ E34Ls? The JJs in it already are cooked and I've been looking to make a tube change. They sounded pretty good, but not quite enough like the sound I have in my mind. Thanks guys.



I read your other post as well before coming here. I thought you would be okay with the Svetlana's, but I'm wrong. The guys that have used them are basically calling them junk. They have no bass and are heavily voiced in the upper mid's. 

What preamp tubes are you running right now? You may want a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 for more mids.

Thanks to Joe and Alan for the replies.


----------



## solarburn

Man the Svets have so little bottom on them its like you need a bass player playing along with you all the time hehe. I thought they were too cutting in a DSL.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I was totally unimpressed by the Svets too. That's how I ended up with the GTEL34M's - I tried the Svetlanas for about an hour and sent them back.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I was totally unimpressed by the Svets too. That's how I ended up with the GTEL34M's - I tried the Svetlanas for about an hour and sent them back.



I was like "yikes...thats some razor highs there!" hehe. 34M's are awesome. Rich mids. That's what I'd go with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was afraid of that. They really talk them up at the Tube Store. They say the bass is weak, but with a guitar it's a moot point. Apparently the bass is not a moot point. Well thanks for the input. This guy is on a budget and is looking at some lower priced tubes. He was running the JJ E34L's before. I don't know if those are in his budget.


----------



## RiverRatt

The EL34M's are only about $10 more than the Svets per pair. That's what I'd choose, too. The SED's are about $25 more per pair. I know Groove Tubes aren't well thought of here, but they really did a good job with these. They are a smooth tube. When I first joined up here, that's what I was running. I only took them out because some kind soul made me a good deal on a pair of RFT's. 

I might pull the RFT's this weekend just for S & G's and run through my EL34 collection and see what I think of them now. I haven't heard those guys in over a year.

If dirt-cheap is what you're after, the EL34EH isn't a bad sounding tube. The trick is in getting a good set. The quad I got started out matched but within a few weeks had drifted to over 8mV apart.


----------



## MM54

So it's finally summer which means I'm finally working and thus can afford to replace my power tubes (I have no idea what kind of shape they're in, but I didn't put them in there so I don't trust them ).

I was planning on trying out the EH6CA7's (Currently there are EH EL34's in it). The nice thing about the 50W is I only need a pair of tubes, so it's much more affordable to experiment (If I had a bit more cash I'd get a pair of KT77s too to see how they sound). Anyways, from what I've read here, the EH are pretty similar to legitimate 6CA7s, so that's what I think I'll go with.

Any advice?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was afraid of that. They really talk them up at the Tube Store. They say the bass is weak, but with a guitar it's a moot point. Apparently the bass is not a moot point. Well thanks for the input. This guy is on a budget and is looking at some lower priced tubes. He was running the JJ E34L's before. I don't know if those are in his budget.



Is he a 100watter or a 50 watter?


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> So it's finally summer which means I'm finally working and thus can afford to replace my power tubes (I have no idea what kind of shape they're in, but I didn't put them in there so I don't trust them ).
> 
> I was planning on trying out the EH6CA7's (Currently there are EH EL34's in it). The nice thing about the 50W is I only need a pair of tubes, so it's much more affordable to experiment (If I had a bit more cash I'd get a pair of KT77s too to see how they sound). Anyways, from what I've read here, the EH are pretty similar to legitimate 6CA7s, so that's what I think I'll go with.
> 
> Any advice?



Woops...nevermind


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> So it's finally summer which means I'm finally working and thus can afford to replace my power tubes (I have no idea what kind of shape they're in, but I didn't put them in there so I don't trust them ).
> 
> I was planning on trying out the EH6CA7's (Currently there are EH EL34's in it). The nice thing about the 50W is I only need a pair of tubes, so it's much more affordable to experiment (If I had a bit more cash I'd get a pair of KT77s too to see how they sound). Anyways, from what I've read here, the EH are pretty similar to legitimate 6CA7s, so that's what I think I'll go with.
> 
> Any advice?



Yeah, I think you should find someone who wants some tubes you have and is willing to trade you a good pair of GT-EL34M's for them 

Just messin' with ya. I haven't tried the EH 6CA7 but the guys who have like them. They are on my to-do list.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I think you should find someone who wants some tubes you have and is willing to trade you a good pair of GT-EL34M's for them
> 
> Just messin' with ya. I haven't tried the EH 6CA7 but the guys who have like them. They are on my to-do list.



The 6CA7's are scooped compared to the 34M's. So the mids aren't as rich and nice as the 34M's but I do like the EH6CA7's. Really articulate at volume.


----------



## RiverRatt

But do they sound like the infamous EVH Marhsall/6CA7 sound? If they sound anything like his early tone, I'm getting a set.


----------



## MartyStrat54

According to Jon, they are very similar at volume, such as high gain settings.

The NOS 6CA7's are fuller sounding at lower, clean settings. More mids and not so scooped.

I decided to go with the EH6CA7's in the JMP 2203. I do have a quad of RFT's that could go in there as well.


----------



## Jack92CH

So I guess it's kind of shitty that I ordered the Svets last night, then? If I'm unsatisfied I could just send them back, but wouldn't the "deep" switch that's built into DSLs (mine is the 100 watter) make up for a portion of lost bass? I got them because I hadn't heard many bad things about them and the tube store seems to have ranked them pretty good. I guess I'll just find out for myself.


----------



## solarburn

Jack92CH said:


> So I guess it's kind of shitty that I ordered the Svets last night, then? If I'm unsatisfied I could just send them back, but wouldn't the "deep" switch that's built into DSLs (mine is the 100 watter) make up for a portion of lost bass? I got them because I hadn't heard many bad things about them and the tube store seems to have ranked them pretty good. I guess I'll just find out for myself.



You already ordered them so give them a whirl and see. Might as well. If you like them then its all good. There frequency range was designed to crunch up and cut through a mix. I just thought they cut too much for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a friend who uses them in a 1987 clone and won't hear of trying anything else. You may like them. I prefer a tube with strong low mids and slightly scooped upper mids, but your ear may be different. Other things like speakers, amp settings, etc. all play a part.

Tube Store and Tube Depot are decent stores to buy from, but have you ever read a review from any of them that was negative? From the Svetlana review:

"For guitar players that need an EL34 tube and play classic rock music we don't think you can find a better tube than the Svetlana EL34."

Think about that statement (I'm in advertising, BTW). Have they endorsed the Svet EL34, or even said anything positive about it? No. What they have said is that if you're a guitar player who plays classic rock and needs an EL34 (that has to take in a whopping percentage of us), they have no confidence in our ability to choose a better tube than the Svet. Also, the word "better" is so subjective that you can use it in just about any context without having to qualify it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a laugh out of this. Here's the Tube Store complaining about the lack of truth in advertising RE: the Shugang Treasure series tubes:


For those with concerns regarding our supply or the quality of this product.
As has happened in the tube market with other products in the past, this tube is blighted with a lone supplier making spurious claims in an effort to turn your fear into a higher price. The following claims are untrue and the supplier is unable to verify any of them in writing:
- they are the exclusive supplier of this product
- they have access to a higher quality "grade A" product
- your warranty will be affected.
On our last factory visit this year we met with the managers and can confirm that none of the above are true; all these claims are contradicted by the makers of the tubes. The only guarantee that is true when buying Shuguang Treasures from "exclusive" distributors is that you will pay a higher price.

I had to call attention to that one line. Doesn't that describe the marketing strategy of almost every CP manufacturer/supplier? It's the Aspen Pittman business model spelled out.


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## MartyStrat54

Yes it is and those "Treasure" tubes just have pretty logo's printed on them.

Look, even Genalex Gold Lion is having quality control issues right now.

What? Misleading ads to sell tubes? Incredible, I don't believe it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes it is and those "Treasure" tubes just have pretty logo's printed on them.
> 
> Look, even Genalex Gold Lion is having quality control issues right now.
> 
> What? Misleading ads to sell tubes? Incredible, I don't believe it.


----------



## 00jett

Iv been in and out of this thread just trying to learn from the discussions here, so when i found this i had to bring it here and ask...

Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z
Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z
$200 bucks for a pair is an awful lot for a CP tube (if im not mistaken). 

Anybody have info??


----------



## MartyStrat54

00jett said:


> Iv been in and out of this thread just trying to learn from the discussions here, so when i found this i had to bring it here and ask...
> 
> Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z
> Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z
> $200 bucks for a pair is an awful lot for a CP tube (if im not mistaken).
> 
> Anybody have info??



The Chinese are getting really good at making money off of tube users.

This tube is aimed at HiFi users. Look at the great box the tubes come in. Too bad it will be empty when the tubes are in use. Makes you wonder why they didn't do the freezing process on them? I thought the best tubes had to be frozen? (Tongue in cheek big time).

Would I like to try a pair in a 50 watt amp? Yes, but not for $200. You can get a pair of real 6CA7's for less than that. The rest of the features like the "space age" black coating to reduce stray electrons, I take with a grain of salt.

If I do decide to buy a pair to test, I'll post up my comments.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Chinese are getting really good at making money off of tube users.
> 
> This tube is aimed at HiFi users. Look at the great box the tubes come in. Too bad it will be empty when the tubes are in use. Makes you wonder why they didn't do the freezing process on them? I thought the best tubes had to be frozen? (Tongue in cheek big time).
> 
> Would I like to try a pair in a 50 watt amp? Yes, but not for $200. You can get a pair of real 6CA7's for less than that. The rest of the features like the "space age" black coating to reduce stray electrons, I take with a grain of salt.
> 
> If I do decide to buy a pair to test, I'll post up my comments.



Seems like a waste of $$$ to me.


----------



## 00jett

> Would I like to try a pair in a 50 watt amp? Yes, but not for $200. You can get a pair of real 6CA7's for less than that. The rest of the features like the "space age" black coating to reduce stray electrons, I take with a grain of salt.



These were my thoughts exactly... I looked into a few other tubes in this series, and it almost sounds like an anniversary type promotion thing.. In one way, I wonder if any newer 'modern' refinements will put into CP tubes to make them better.. Hopefully not for these prices..


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## MartyStrat54

You know I would like to hear these up against a real Sylvania. I'm curious to see if they are actually better. They would have to be to justify that price.

That would be like TAD selling EL34's for $250 for a pair. That would mean they would be better than a used pair of Mullard xf2's. I just don't see it happening.

You better believe that they are doing all they can to sell these tubes. I have not found one bad review on them. Some claim they are as good as NOS. These tubes require a 300 hour break in period before they sound their best.

So who knows. The HiFi crowd loves them.


----------



## 00jett

Well I just noticed them while checking that site for tubes to replace the winged C tubes I had in my dsl... One of them stopped working so I swapped with some others Ihad.. I was trying to see what the tube store had to say about reliablity of tubes. The winged C tubes I had were about 4 month old (just a few weeks over the warrenty..).. I don't know, I'm starting to think I should just put the effort into learning about NOS options to see if they might last a bit longer.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that Shugang can make some of the best CP tubes out there, but like all the others they have problems with quality control. The GT EL34M's are made by Shugang, but they have an American corporation overseeing quality control. This setup has worked well for Marshall, Celestion, Epiphone, and a slew of other MI companies. The same thing happened in Japan after WWII. Think about how many IT companies have relied on Chinese production for motherboards, iPods, cellular phones, etc. since the technology boom started. If you own a piece of technology, odds are it is of Chinese manufacture. Apply that to guitar amps and tubes, and look out. We've already seen the first and second waves of this happen. If a company could acquire Philips tooling (Ei is still for sale, and that includes a lot of Telefunken machinery!) and apply modern manufacturing techniques to start turning out those same tubes in China with strict quality control, we could see another golden age of vacuum tubes. The demand for quality vacuum tube technology is higher now than at any time since the early 1960's, and with the US economy being as it is, people want more bang for less $$$. China is in the ideal position to offer a better product at a lower price. There are already several Chinese amps on the market that almost have it right. When they figure out they can stop cutting corners and charge a couple hundred more for really upper-end gear, they are going to eat our lunch. Guys, I just bought a Chinese-made AXL guitar as a "what-the-hell" kind of purchase, and it is a solid axe! It has the feel of a worn-in Fender; the wood is top quality, even the fret work is better than some of the low end stuff Gibson is putting out. It feels like a $1,000 guitar and I paid under $200 for it. Where it misses totally is in the plastic nut, cheap tuners, and cheap electronics. You can upgrade all that stuff to top-quality hardware and still have about $400 invested in a really decent guitar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Chinese won't buy Ei. It will just rust away. As far as guitars goes, I bought a Schecter Elite in 2004 for a little over $400 and this included a HSC. For the money, holy cow. Abalone binding, beautiful wood and killer neck. The only thing I did was switch out the "Duncan Designed" humbuckers with DiMarzio PAF (neck) and Super Distortion + (bridge).


----------



## MM54

I say the Marshall Forum should get together and find a sponsor and buy Ei


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## MartyStrat54

See, I figure if New Sensor had wanted them, they would have bought Ei a long time ago.


----------



## cagamp1

Legend has it that Gold Lions are among the best. A set of vintage Gold Lions may cost as much or more than your amp though. Anyone mess around with new model Gold Lions for comparison with their current tubes?

Hey, anyone out there thinking of swapping 6L6's with KT66's need to heed warning. KT66 tubes are not totally equivalent. They use 30% more filament/heater amperage. If your 6L6 amp can't handle the additional draw, you will pay the consequences. You might be better off with 6L6GC's, especially vintage black plates.

CAG


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## MartyStrat54

Good info for the rookies.


----------



## LpPepper

Im putting TAD Ei valves in my DSL401 (El84) and was just wondering what level I should tell my tech to set it at (in terms of mV i.e 45mV)


----------



## MM54

This was already covered in your thread, LpPepper.


Hey Marty, do you sell CP tubes as well by any chance?


----------



## Michael1987xl

cagamp1 said:


> Legend has it that Gold Lions are among the best. A set of vintage Gold Lions may cost as much or more than your amp though. Anyone mess around with new model Gold Lions for comparison with their current tubes?



I have a set of the CP Gold Lion KT77's in my 1987xl. Wilder gave me some spec's to keep an eye on for biasing, etc. They've been in the amp for a little over a month now and they're awesome; way better than any of the CP EL34's I had tried. So far, not so much as a hiccup out of them. They're a little pricey, but so far, they're worth it.

I was considering their CP EL84 for my Class 5, but the Tube Store put the _kabosh_ on that idea in a hurry. The guy I always deal with there e-mailed me when I wrote them and told me they had an unusually high number of failures with them and had stopped selling them until they get a new batch in and have a chance to test 'em out. Given how often he's steered me away from something I asked about and towards an often-times less expensive solution, or took something back without any questions, I believe him.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> This was already covered in your thread, LpPepper.
> 
> 
> Hey Marty, do you sell CP tubes as well by any chance?



I have some. What are you looking for? PM me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LpPepper said:


> Im putting TAD Ei valves in my DSL401 (El84) and was just wondering what level I should tell my tech to set it at (in terms of mV i.e 45mV)



Already responded to. Copy and paste reply.

There are old 401's and new 401's. You have an old 401. It was designed to run at a hotter bias. The bias resistor on a 401 is a 10 ohm, so it multiplies the actual mV/mA value by ten. Example: 800mV is actually 80mV. 

Marshall stated to set the bias at 1350mV. Most people do not do this. I have an older 401 my tech set the bias to 800mV. However, I am running NOS EL84's.

There are two things to know about the older 401's and that is the bridge rectifier and the bias on the tubes.

As Jon Wilder pointed out, 65 percent dissipation is a good choice. Your tech will have to make measurements to determine what that value is. None of us can just give you a figure.


----------



## MM54

I came into the topic for something but I forget what it was  Reread this page and now it's gone.

By the way Marty, PM Sent (A little while ago).


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah I got it. Thanks.


----------



## dave999z

So, I have gotten screwed with yet another pair of xf2 tubes from eBay. To recap, I'm looking for two matched pairs...

The first pair I bought had one dead tube. Guy took them back.

The second pair both tubes worked and matched pretty closely.

The third pair both worked but they were nowhere close to matching. Guy would not take them back. I resold them for half what I paid.

The fourth pair I just got today both work but again when I tried biasing them they are nowhere close to matching. We'll see if the guy will take them back. He has 100% positive feedback with over 1300 sales of audio equip., amps, and tubes. Thought this was pretty promising. My amp is cooling off and I'm going to put my current svetlanas back in to make sure they bias ok and it's not my amp. But I'm pretty positive it's not my amp.

This is ridiculously frustrating. I think I'm going to give up and just go with current production Tungsols. I was willing to pay a fair bit for xf2s. But I'm sick of taking months to find them and then just getting burned. This blows.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry to hear that you have had so much of a problem. I think it sucks big time when a seller states the tubes are matched, but knows they aren't. Most of the time, if the seller had good feedback and will offer a return, it is usually safe to buy from them. What I would do is send them a message before the auction ends and ask how they determined the tubes are a match? Just because two tubes read 92 and 94 on a tube tester, that doesn't mean they are a match. There is a good chance that they will, but you never know what the current draw is going to be until you put them in a circuit, or you have a Maxi-Matcher tube tester.

Some people will sell tubes in good faith based on their tube tester. Again, the tubes can be "matched," but the actual current draw is wide in an amp.


----------



## dave999z

Here was his description:

_These tubes test very well, both reading at 108 on my tester where 60 is considered good and most new EL34's read between about 105 and 110 depending on the make. I also tested these with the heaters underpowered by 4 volts and neither emission fell by more than about 2% which is a very good sign of low hours and plenty of life left. Despite these having not exectly matched date codes, they came from the same piece of equipment and therefore have identical hours of use. I also checked these in circuit, and measured current with a fixed cathode resistor and plate & g2 voltage at 200, 300 and 400 volts. All three current measurements were essentially identical, not varying by more than a couple mA even at the highest current. This is much closer than you'd expect for random tubes and indicates HP must have selected these for match. Very likely this is about as well matched a set of tubes as you can buy even if you go with new manufacture.​_


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Has he responded to you findings? Sounds like he really tested those tubes good. Keep me posted.


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## dave999z

he'll take them back.


----------



## solarburn

dave999z said:


> he'll take them back.



Try some 34M's(1-3). Hell they are based off the XF2's. I really like how they sound in my Marshall. RR does too.

I've read a few reviews where guys have both the 34M's and the real XF2's and said they were very close. I wouldn't know cause I haven't tried XF2's but it doesn't matter cause I like the 34m's anyways. 

Now if you have already tried them and don't like them ignore my input. I can't help a fellla that hasn't any taste...


----------



## RiverRatt

I do like them better than the Winged C's. I've never had a pair of real XF2's to compare them to. I can highly recommend a good set of RFT EL34's as well. They are the best sounding EL34 I've tried yet, and they haven't budged more than 1 or 2 mV from when I put them in over a year ago. They are also a lot more affordable than XF2's.


----------



## dave999z

Thanks guys. I think, since this guy is taking them back with no problem, I'm going to stick it out a bit more and try to find another pair of xf2s. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.

I have a Marshall EL34 50/50 power amp, which is a dual monoblock that takes two EL34 tubes in each block. So I need two matched pairs, but don't need a matched quad. Right now I have the stock Svetlanas in one side and a pair of xf2s in the other side. I really like the xf2s. If I can round out the other side with a pair, it should be stellar. Easier said than done though.

A pair of xf2s runs about double what a pair of RFTs does (if you can find a working matched pair!!). I know it's nothing to sneeze at, but it's not like they're 10x more expensive.


----------



## Salsg

I've recently put in some CP Winged Cs in my 6100. I've read somewhere of tube break in, is it reality? Do tubes sound better after some playing time? It's been over a week since I put them in and I've been playing daily. I also put in new preamp tubes at the same time.


----------



## RickyLee

dave999z said:


> Thanks guys. I think, since this guy is taking them back with no problem, I'm going to stick it out a bit more and try to find another pair of xf2s. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess.
> 
> I have a Marshall EL34 50/50 power amp, which is a dual monoblock that takes two EL34 tubes in each block. So I need two matched pairs, but don't need a matched quad. Right now I have the stock Svetlanas in one side and a pair of xf2s in the other side. I really like the xf2s. If I can round out the other side with a pair, it should be stellar. Easier said than done though.
> 
> A pair of xf2s runs about double what a pair of RFTs does (if you can find a working matched pair!!). I know it's nothing to sneeze at, but it's not like they're 10x more expensive.




Having that stereo power amp is awesome in relation, to you will be able to AB two different sets of power tubes by comparing each 50 watt channel. Have you tried this yet? That would be an awesome way to compare the NOS Mullards against the New Sensor and GT EL34M tubes.

I have tried just about every new production EL34 out there. I can not talk myself into trying NOS Mullards or RFT's not so much because of the price, but more because of what you guys have discussed here about the unknown variables with sellers you can trust, or the tubes are as the seller states or even somewhat in the ballpark on matched/current draw.

I would really like to try a set of NOS Mullard EL34's if I could find a safe purchase. Then I am also worried about the "If I like them too much and have to have them over the new production tubes" issue. LOL

 


But I have to give props to the GT EL34M. I had those tubes in my '83 2204 a few years back. I then went to a set of what I thought was "rare" GT EL34C which was a physically huge tube. The GT EL34M was smooth and sweet in the mids. Then I went to the GT EL34C's, an they had a huge sound to them, and more aggressive I should say. And a bit more bottom end. I was trying to find out info on these C's until I pulled out my box of EL34 collection, and discovered that these GT EL34C's were a Ruby EL34BSTR. Nothing rare about them at all. I ran those C's in that 2204 for quite some time, then switched over to a new pair of =C= EL34's, that have stayed in the 2204 since. But now I am thinking I need to go back and give those GT EL34M's another listen, I am just not knocked out by the =C='s like I was when I ran the =C='s in my 2205. It is quite odd, as I have two different sets of =C= EL34. This set that is in my 2204 now, is a new set I bought from one of the main online stores. The other first set of =C= EL34's that I tested in my 2205 a few years ago, then stashed them away, were just amazing. I am thinking I need to pull that other set of =C='s out and compare them to the =C='s that are in my 2204 now, that I am not all that impressed with. As a few other people on this forum have stated they have had some consistency issues with the =C= EL34. 

I should also give props to the New Sensor EL34. I put a new set of those in my '89 2550 and they sound excellent as well. Anyone know if the New Sensor EL34 and the GT EL34M are related in any way - maybe same manufacturer? I thought I gave them a look and physically compared them quite some time ago, but I can not remember for sure.




Has anyone tried a direct sound comparison between the GT EL34M & New Sensor EL34?

Or better yet, compared either of those two to the NOS Mullard EL34?


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you say NewSensor EL34, which tube are you talking about? New Sensor owns quite a few brand names. Some like the Sovtek and the EH are made side by side and are very similar. The Mullard and Tung-Sol are New Sensor as well.

I'm sure you realize all of this.

I personally haven't used any GT stuff. Now if Joe and Alan says it's good (and you as well), then there is something to it.

I will say that New Sensor is all Russian based and GT and Ruby can be either Russian or Chinese, but it is more Chinese. In fact, I believe that GT relabels JJ tubes as well.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> When you say NewSensor EL34, which tube are you talking about? New Sensor owns quite a few brand names. Some like the Sovtek and the EH are made side by side and are very similar. The Mullard and Tung-Sol are New Sensor as well.
> 
> I'm sure you realize all of this.
> 
> I personally haven't used any GT stuff. Now if Joe and Alan says it's good (and you as well), then there is something to it.
> 
> I will say that New Sensor is all Russian based and GT and Ruby can be either Russian or Chinese, but it is more Chinese. In fact, I believe that GT relabels JJ tubes as well.



I'm gonna guess and say he's referring to the Mullard RI and no the GT 34M's are not relabeled or the same as Mullard RI's. The 34M's are Chinese as far as I've found.

Marty its those sweet mids in the 34M's that really sound great in a Marshall.


----------



## RickyLee

Thanks fellas. Yeah, that is what I was meaning to say.


----------



## belch

I've just been monitoring the current draw on some old tubes ( through 1 ohm resistor ), Mullard xf1 & 2's, dual getter tesla's , pinnacle & a load of noname brands which i've salvaged from old amps.

My question is, though i can match up the same brand tubes close at idle once the amp gets cranked the current draw can be hugely different. For example a pair of noname tubes where one pulls 33ma & the other 37ma at idle yet once the vol gets round to half way the 33ma tube will be pulling upto 160ma where the 37ma will just get above 100ma, what does this tell me about the state of the tubes 

While i'm here any ideas what the nonamers are.


----------



## RickyLee

belch said:


> I've just been monitoring the current draw on some old tubes ( through 1 ohm resistor ), Mullard xf1 & 2's, dual getter tesla's , pinnacle & a load of noname brands which i've salvaged from old amps.
> 
> My question is, though i can match up the same brand tubes close at idle once the amp gets cranked the current draw can be hugely different. For example a pair of noname tubes where one pulls 33ma & the other 37ma at idle yet once the vol gets round to half way the 33ma tube will be pulling upto 160ma where the 37ma will just get above 100ma, what does this tell me about the state of the tubes
> 
> While i'm here any ideas what the nonamers are.




What you are speaking of, is something I noticed as well when running mismatched idling tubes in a bias balance system - like my Blackface Bassman, or even the DSL/TSL amps that have the dual bias trimmer setup to balance the idle current.

I brought this subject up at the other Forum a good year or two ago, but did not get much feedback.

What I noticed, as you are noticing as well if I am understanding you correctly, is that under heavy current draw/load or let's say cranking the amp, I would have a disparity between the two sides of the output transformer/sets of tubes. For example: This is when I was taking two mismatched idling power tubes and trying to balance them out. To start one tube would be quite cold - 20mA at idle, and the other tube/other side would idle a lot hotter at 35mA. I would then balance them out (my Blackface Bassman has an overall bias level pot plus the stock bias balance pot) so they were iding the same - let's say 33mA each. When I would start playing the amp at a good level, they would get way out of balance again. So I would adjust the bias balance to where they looked quite close under heavy load/playing conditions. Ususally it would only take aprox. 5mA of compensation at idle to balance them this way. So at idle, they now might be about 5mA difference between them, but balanced out quite closely as the amp was cranked up.

We need some of our theory guru's to chime in on this for sure.

Those old tubes you got - are any of them the old Reflektor stuff?


----------



## RickyLee

Also, as in you wondering about the "state of the tubes" with one running a lot hotter than the other, would the tube that is drawing a lot of current be "worn out"? 

And then, where does "hardness" and the grading system play into this? Like when you order a set of tubes and ask for a colder running set, and they have a low idle current compared to another set of the same brand and model? 

Then there is the GT number grading system, or "hardness" 1 - 10. Does a lower number mean it will draw more current at load or even at idle compared to the same model of tube with a higher number??

Then that falls into what I saw with a brand new set of Svetlana EL34's. I had them in an amp for only a few hours biased up at the 60% dissipation, and one of them started redplating - when I would get the volume up at least half way and dig in with a hot signal at the input of the amp, that tube would start redplating. It was from a brand new matched quad and I was running two in an amp. Tried the other two and no issues. Just one bunk tube out of the four. These Svetlana's were a early breakup 1 to 3 category. These were not from GT or GT labeled, they were actual Svetlana's bought from Musicians Friend and you could specify the 1-3, 4-7, 8-10 when ordering.


----------



## belch

I vaguely remember your post on the other forum Ricky, it would be good to get some info on this.

I'm using a 50w head with single bias control & trying to make pairs up, the bias circuit & screen resistors all check good with all new electro caps fitted. It just seems that some tubes while idling lower will draw more current under heavy use & vise versa.

The 8 tubes along the top all look identical & from what info i've gleened they could be RFT's but not 100% sure.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, I was just discussing the independent dual bias schematic with Joey here a few nights ago. I am putting together a 2204 style board - well, it is starting out as a 2204 and will grow into a Frankenstein by the time I am done with it LOL. I already set the bias supply circuit up with two trim pots - to be able to do just what we are discussing - so I can run all these single/no match/no mate tubes that I have. A lot of people think this bias balance setup is overkill, but I am not using it for exact matching, just using it more for mismatched tubes that are way off from each other on the current draw. 

That is a mod you should do to your amp, the bias balance control with a second trim pot.


----------



## belch

I already have 2 amps that i added dual independant bias control to & a well worth mod it is, just that i have a few original amps that i dont want to mod so sorting out close pairs is needed.

I'm begining to think the difference in current draw at high vols is more to do with the unbalanced nature of the PI  as the high draw is always on the same tube socket.


----------



## RickyLee

belch said:


> I already have 2 amps that i added dual independant bias control to & a well worth mod it is, just that i have a few original amps that i dont want to mod so sorting out close pairs is needed.
> 
> I'm begining to think the difference in current draw at high vols is more to do with the unbalanced nature of the PI  as the high draw is always on the same tube socket.



Hmmm. that is interesting. I did not have that big of a difference on the few that I monitored while cranking the amps.

Is your output transformer primary windings center tap quite balanced?


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> Hmmm. that is interesting. I did not have that big of a difference on the few that I monitored while cranking the amps.
> 
> Is your output transformer primary windings center tap quite balanced?



Have you taken a ohms measurement from CT to each leg of the windings I should say?


----------



## belch

Yeah the primaries are close 71ohm & 74ohm from centre tap to anode 1 & 2 ( early 70's drake 784-213 TX ).

I'm gonna swap out the screen resistors as there the piher 2watt type that were fitted as stock back in the day, i think they expected em to fail if a fault occured as these old amps had no HT fuse fitted, maybe there giving way when under stress.

i'll try some of these tubes in another amp & see what results i get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Also, as in you wondering about the "state of the tubes" with one running a lot hotter than the other, would the tube that is drawing a lot of current be "worn out"?
> 
> And then, where does "hardness" and the grading system play into this? Like when you order a set of tubes and ask for a colder running set, and they have a low idle current compared to another set of the same brand and model?
> 
> Then there is the GT number grading system, or "hardness" 1 - 10. Does a lower number mean it will draw more current at load or even at idle compared to the same model of tube with a higher number??
> 
> Then that falls into what I saw with a brand new set of Svetlana EL34's. I had them in an amp for only a few hours biased up at the 60% dissipation, and one of them started redplating - when I would get the volume up at least half way and dig in with a hot signal at the input of the amp, that tube would start redplating. It was from a brand new matched quad and I was running two in an amp. Tried the other two and no issues. Just one bunk tube out of the four. These Svetlana's were a early breakup 1 to 3 category. These were not from GT or GT labeled, they were actual Svetlana's bought from Musicians Friend and you could specify the 1-3, 4-7, 8-10 when ordering.



As a tube wears out, it starts to draw more current. That's why the bias should be checked every six months. (We all know that many guys let this go until tube replacement time. This could be three years or so. This puts a strain on the OPT and is basically like running an unbiased amp.)

I don't know what to say about hardness and the selling of different hardness tubes. Hardness refers to the vacuum on the tube. In the good old days, the vacuum was intentionally pulled as hard as feasible. This would promote long tube life and ensure proper function. Now we have tubes with varying vacuums and it is a sales feature. I will say that a milder vacuum results in a shorter tube life. There is more gases still in the tube and the getter has to work harder. Since it will wear out quicker, it will pull more current over it's life.

Me? Well that's why I prefer NOS tubes. They will probably be around until I hang it up (and sell my amps to JOE). Take a Mullard xf1 for example. These tubes came out in the late 50's to early 60's. If they test at 60 percent, they usually bring as much money as a stronger tube. Why? Because at 60 percent, the tube will last for a long time.

If you go here, groovetubes

that will take you to a page on GT where they "attempt" to explain the 1 to 10 scale. I read it and it contradicts itself. Up at the top, they show the wattage capabilities of a 1 tube and a 10 tube. The 10 tube puts out five more watts of power. They then go on to say that it really isn't about power, but distortion. Then they go on to say that a 4-7 is the most selected, because it is the most versatile. 

What I got is that there is not a whole lot of difference AND 4-7 is vauge, as well as 1-3 and 8-10. It's very difficult to sometimes penetrate the GT marketing scheme. JOE uses a 1-3 tube I believe. GT claims this tubes is the most touch sensitive and will break up sooner. Can they actually tell the difference between a 1 and a 3?

@belch-Let's see some shots of the top of those tubes. Does any of them have the famous RFT dimple? RFT made thousands of tubes for other companies, but the dimple and the plates are an easy way to spot them.


----------



## belch

MartyStrat54 said:


> @belch-Let's see some shots of the top of those tubes. Does any of them have the famous RFT dimple? RFT made thousands of tubes for other companies, but the dimple and the plates are an easy way to spot them.



Yes Marty all the top 8 have the dimple.

I'll put some pics up tomorrow ( battery just died on the camera )

I have quite a few old mullards some good & some which dont look in the best of shape ( burn marks on the plates from redplating) but cant force myself to throw em away are they worth hanging onto ?


----------



## RickyLee

Wow belch. 3 ohms difference seems a lot higher than all the OT I have checked. I am remembering all mine are within just over an ohm side to side, but I would have to check that. Probably not all related to what you are seeing any way. I had one amp that always measured higher current draw on one half of the OT/one tube socket on a 50 watter. I checked the OT windings and kind of wrote it off on that as it was a bit off on the center tap - after I had checked and replaced a few components along the way.

I have some notes written down on a few of my amps and the OT windings, I will try to see what I had.

I am pulling the 2204 and the SL-X out right now, have to try some power tubes out I just picked up for dirt cheap. So far they all test like new on my tester. I also pulled out the stash box and I want to hear the GT EL34M's in my 2204 compared to the =C= EL34's that are in there now. I have not been all that impressed with these brand new =C='s I got from one of the major online stores.



I have a set of Sovtek 5881WXT's that I am going to pop in the SL-X and give another listen to as well.


----------



## RickyLee

Hey Marty, thanks for the info. Some day I want to shell out the dough and treat myself to a pair of the real deal NOS EL34 Mullards. Are you a seller for those as well?

I will be going back into the studio real soon - might be a good occasion for a set of those . . .


----------



## dave999z

RickyLee said:


> Hey Marty, thanks for the info. Some day I want to shell out the dough and treat myself to a pair of the real deal NOS EL34 Mullards. Are you a seller for those as well?
> .



No! Or I wouldn't have the damn trouble I've had finding them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dave, you might have to settle for a new set of RFT's.


----------



## RickyLee

OK belch. Here are some stats for you. I just tried a pair of =C= 6L6GCs in my Traynor Custom Reverb. Tis is the third set of =C='s that I have had that are unmatched on their idle current. But these are extremely off.

This amp is spec'ed for EL34's, but I was just trying a few different models of tubes in this amp. Hve not opend up the 2204 yet, and don't know if Iwill have time to dig the SL-X out.

But back to these =C= 6L6GC's. All the other tubes I ran just before these were pretty much right on the money as being balanced and matched. I stuck these C's in and one tube was quite cold at 21mA while it's mate was at 40mA!



The voltage on the plates of the cold one was 445V, hotter one was 442V.

So I monitored the mA draw and hit the amp with a hot signal that caused instant feedback and the the cold tube was at 105mA and the hotter tube was at 134mA.

This Traynor does not have the bias balance, so I can not try the experiment we discussed earlier.

I will see if maybe I can dig out an amp that I can do the bias/idle balancing and see how the peak mA reacts after balancing these =C= 6L6GC's.


----------



## RickyLee

Well, for this point in time in regards to my '83 2204, I am preferring the GT EL34M Rated5's over the =C= EL34's. I was playing guitar to amp with no pedals, Gain at a few different settings including Dimed. Master volume was at about 2 when the Gain was up high, which means that the amp was quite loud.

To be honest, it is hard to tell a difference as both these brands of tubes sound quite the same. And playing in my living room is just not a good environment to compare tubes.

I might be hooking up with a new set of musicians and start playing downtown in front of a cool BBQ joint every Wednesday starting this week, and also might be playing another place three Fridays a month. So that will be a good situation to start hearing the effects of all the tweaking I have been putting into these amps.

But back to the =C= vs. GT M's. I cant really explain in words what I was hearing that made me dig the M's over the =C= tubes. When I had the Gain up high and was playing some heavy driving rhythm stuff in the key of B sliding up to Db and down to A - 7th fret position - I was hearing just a better tighter grind with clarity in the chords. A bit sweeter in the lower mids. I have another set of =C= EL34's from a few years ago that have been stashed away. I know for sure, that older set of =C= had the Mojo. I had compared those tubes to quite a few other EL34's in my 2205 a few years ago and posted what I heard the Forum. I would like to compare these new =C='s I just pulled from my 2204 to those ones I have stashed away - to settle my suspicion that there is something a bit off with this last set I got. 

I did not have time to pull the SL-X out and tinker with it though. So hopefully in the next few weeks, I will have some experiences to share as I plan on taking different amps and tube configurations to these upcoming gigs.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

CP tubes: I'm running JJ EL34L's. What am I gonna find different if I go w/ EL34M's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm using E34N's and I have O and P on order. Can't wait to try them out.


----------



## solarburn

I always say try the tube out and see. Speculation on any tube you haven't used yet is just that. If you really don't need to get another set of tubes and you like what you have then I say keep enjoying what you have. Really then you're not missing out on anything ground breaking or earth shaking hehe. Me I like to try things out just to see. That way I know.

Like I said before I'd be happy using my top 3 pics for power tubes anytime. After that its whatever I can afford so I can keep playing if it ever gets that tight money wise.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some guys like to get about 10 years out of their power tubes, Joe. We both know that ain't a good road to go down. Power tubes should be changed every two years if you play around 4 hours a day. This equates to 3000 hours over two years. Old stock (NOS) tubes that test new will probably last a guy around 5000 hours. I think if you get 3000 out of a CP power tube, you are doing well.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Some guys like to get about 10 years out of their power tubes, Joe. We both know that ain't a good road to go down. Power tubes should be changed every two years if you play around 4 hours a day. This equates to 3000 hours over two years. Old stock (NOS) tubes that test new will probably last a guy around 5000 hours. I think if you get 3000 out of a CP power tube, you are doing well.



Holy crapola! 10 yrs...! I'm happy with a year of daily playing...not to mention wanting to hear and feel something else after awhile. So with my collection I can do that whenever I want. By 2 yrs I'd be telling myself the tubes are worn.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> CP tubes: I'm running JJ EL34L's. What am I gonna find different if I go w/ EL34M's?



IMO you'll find a smoother tone. The E34L's always sound a little harsh to me in the upper mids and highs. The EL34M is a little darker tube without any spikes. Good, full lows and low mids and more rounded on the top end. 

That said, I know the stuff you like to chase, and I think you should try a set of RFT's when you get a chance. They have that early Def Leppard/ACDC tone that we both seem to like. If Marty has a deal on XF2's I might consider trying them, but I'd rather buy NOS RFT tubes that I know are good and have plenty of life left in them than pay 2x or 3x the price for Mullards that are well used and may or may not even sound good anymore.


----------



## RiverRatt

I ran across a handful of Philips products this weekend and I have no idea what to do with them. They are a cool assortment but pretty much worthless as near as I can tell. I've got a Made in Holland LL86 (9-pin power pentode) with the factory code dHO, another Holland 6LX8, a Canadian 6LN8, and a Mullard LF183 with the blackest getter flash I have ever seen. The LL86 looks deceptively like an EL84.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That black getter flash is supposed to be the best. On some tube runs they actually did them with a black getter flash. This was done by doing the flash procedure at a slower rate. Slow = Black.


----------



## RickyLee

My G.A.S. problem shifted over to a case of G.A.S. for the GLASS a few years back. I have built up quite a stash of assorted pre-amp and power-amp tubes. It is a good idea to have extra tubes on hand, even more so if you are gigging. I like variety, so when I started building up a bit of a backup supply, I wanted something different to try on the power tubes.

Sometimes you will not hear all these slight differences between tube brands/types when you play in certain band situations and environments.

A lot of the time, what sounds incredible dialed in at home, will not sound so hot in a live band situation. And the room you are playing in - as well as how many bodies are in the room - plays into that as well.

But I would think having a set of the GT EL34M's to play with and swap between those E34L's will bring you lot's tonal ecstacy!

LOL

For me, JJ E34L's sound bigger and just a bit more top end fizz, compared to the GT EL34M's.


----------



## seeker of rock

Hi, I'm new here. I posted this in the preamp tubes thread, but I have a power amps tube question as well. I have an '82 2204 with *cowers down* groove tubes in it from the last tube service it had in 1991. I didn't know about groove tubes back then, but after reading here today now I do. Anyway, I only record with it now and that is very occasional, but I'll be using it more in the coming months. I put a blackburn mullard in V1 a few years ago and plan to replace the V2 and power tubes next. It has 1991 groove tube-labeled 6550s in it currently with probably 150 hours on them. 

I know Marty is a NOS lover, as am I after sticking the mullard in, but I'm wondering if anyone who has tube rolled with 2203 or 2204 US versions has any power tube suggestions, both CP and NOS? I've searched a lot today and saw the poll for CP pre tubes and the majority preference for Tung Sol and read a lot of love for SED winged C for EL34s. Anyone want to give some suggestions, or do you need more info I may have omitted?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if your 6550's only have 150 hours on them, I would keep them unless you are looking for a change. The main thing about GT is they are mainly Chinese tubes and in 1991, I have no idea what the quality control was like. The main thing is you have low hours on the tubes and they are fine, unless you want to go in a different direction. Personally, I'd be going with better preamp tubes, especially in V1 and V2. You could get by with an EH in V3 and they are like $11. However, there are better choices if you go with Old Stock tubes.

The other thing is you know that you have to mod the amp if you want to go with EL34's. You have a 6550 amp. I'm more into KT88's than 6550's, but prefer the EL34.


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if your 6550's only have 150 hours on them, I would keep them unless you are looking for a change. The main thing about GT is they are mainly Chinese tubes and in 1991, I have no idea what the quality control was like. The main thing is you have low hours on the tubes and they are fine, unless you want to go in a different direction. Personally, I'd be going with better preamp tubes, especially in V1 and V2. You could get by with an EH in V3 and they are like $11. However, there are better choices if you go with Old Stock tubes.
> 
> The other thing is you know that you have to mod the amp if you want to go with EL34's. You have a 6550 amp. I'm more into KT88's than 6550's, but prefer the EL34.



I've had this amp since 1985 when I bought it slightly used. It is stock and I don't plan to mod for EL34. Besides, I like the 6550 sound. Except I could probably do better than the GT6550 sound, so that's what I'm asking suggestions for. Both 6550 CP and NOS suggestions. You are regarded as the tube king it seems on this forum...got any suggestions for either or both?


----------



## MM54

Hey guys.

Later tonight or tomorrow morning after I get back from the post office I'll be ordering a pair of EH6CA7's - They bias up exactly the same as EL34's, right? Anyone who's used them have a suggestion for what wattage/percent they bias them to?

Also, I need two boxes for my pair of EL34's in there now - would I want boxes 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 3 11/16 or would they be better in 1 5/8" x 1 5/8" x 4 15/16"? The first seems kind of small, but the next size up (the second one) seems too big. Thanks.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Later tonight or tomorrow morning after I get back from the post office I'll be ordering a pair of EH6CA7's - They bias up exactly the same as EL34's, right? Anyone who's used them have a suggestion for what wattage/percent they bias them to?
> 
> Also, I need two boxes for my pair of EL34's in there now - would I want boxes 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 3 11/16 or would they be better in 1 5/8" x 1 5/8" x 4 15/16"? The first seems kind of small, but the next size up (the second one) seems too big. Thanks.



In my DSL I liked them at 65%. Yes they bias up jus like 34's.


----------



## MM54

Thanks, any idea about the boxes? (I don't have any to measure or I would just do that )


----------



## MartyStrat54

The smaller boxes are too short, but I have used them before. Better to get the next size up and use toilet paper to fill in the void.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Thanks, any idea about the boxes? (I don't have any to measure or I would just do that )



This is what I'd get. If a bit too big you can always add some tissue to the box to take up any slack ie- Kleenex or TP, foam peanut ect...


Medium Octal Tube Box


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Later tonight or tomorrow morning after I get back from the post office I'll be ordering a pair of EH6CA7's - They bias up exactly the same as EL34's, right? Anyone who's used them have a suggestion for what wattage/percent they bias them to?
> 
> Also, I need two boxes for my pair of EL34's in there now - would I want boxes 1 1/4 x 1 1/4 x 3 11/16 or would they be better in 1 5/8" x 1 5/8" x 4 15/16"? The first seems kind of small, but the next size up (the second one) seems too big. Thanks.



That's the size you need.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow. 3 answers at once. That has to be a new record.


----------



## solarburn

Marty beat me to it.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## MM54

I feel loved


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I always say try the tube out and see. Speculation on any tube you haven't used yet is just that. If you really don't need to get another set of tubes and you like what you have then I say keep enjoying what you have. Really then you're not missing out on anything ground breaking or earth shaking hehe... Me I like to try things out just to see. That way I know.



Couldn't agree w/ you more Joe, but... I'm one of those guys who always feels nervous when he doesn't have a back-up or a "Plan B". Currently I have enough preamp tubes not to fear being w/out, but I don't have a single back up power amp tube for either amp... Makes me nervous.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Some guys like to get about 10 years out of their power tubes, Joe. We both know that ain't a good road to go down. Power tubes should be changed every two years if you play around 4 hours a day. This equates to 3000 hours over two years. Old stock (NOS) tubes that test new will probably last a guy around 5000 hours. I think if you get 3000 out of a CP power tube, you are doing well.



Well... I don't gig, so that buys me some time. I don't gig, so there's a little more time. I only get to play _loud_ once in a while, so I reckon' there's more time. I figure, all in all, my weekly playinging time ranges from 2-10 hours (more often on the lower side of that range). That being said... What do you think I might expect to see out of my power tubes? Just 
out of curiosity.



RiverRatt said:


> IMO you'll find a smoother tone. The E34L's always sound a little harsh to me in the upper mids and highs. The EL34M is a little darker tube without any spikes. Good, full lows and low mids and more rounded on the top end.
> 
> That said, I know the stuff you like to chase, and I think you should try a set of *RFT's* when you get a chance. They *have that early Def Leppard/ACDC tone that we both seem to like*. If Marty has a deal on XF2's I might consider trying them, but I'd rather buy NOS RFT tubes that I know are good and have plenty of life left in them than pay 2x or 3x the price for Mullards that are well used and may or may not even sound good anymore.



You might be on to something. The early Def Leppard & AC/DC tones actually are very much alike. Much more than most people think. It's everything _after_ High N' Dry that is a different story. But If I want that processed Pyromania, Hysteria, and everything after that, sorta tone... Well I reckon' the RP1000 will come in very handy. That said... Perhaps a power tube that helps w/ that early Leppard - AC/DC tome might be a good idea. Then I could keep my CP power tubes for spares. (the Bugera runs 6L6's & the Marshall is EL34L's)



RickyLee said:


> ... I would think having a set of the GT EL34M's to play with and swap between those E34L's will bring you lot's tonal ecstacy!
> 
> LOL
> 
> For me, JJ E34L's sound bigger and just a bit more top end fizz, compared to the GT EL34M's.



Hmm... I like ecstasy... 



seeker of rock said:


> ... You are regarded as the tube king it seems on this forum...



Beyond a doubt, Marty is *the tube king* on the forum.


----------



## solarburn

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU56_4x71jk&feature=related]YouTube - ZZ TOP tube snake boogie - Germany 1980[/ame]

Fo' Marty the "Tube King" hehe!


----------



## seeker of rock

So for my 2204 head with 6550 tubes, I think I've read that SED winged C, Tung-Sol, and EH are all considered decent production tubes. I'm wondering if the original tubes were GE 6550. If so, a NOS pair of those would be another option. 

I think it was Jon Wilder that mentioned in one of the threads I searched, a lot of people here try to give good information without people having to resort to tube companies' marketing strategies and misinformation in describing their tubes to would-be consumers. 

If I rely on company information, sovtek says their 6550 "bring out the crunch in guitars", which is very appealing to me. The SED winged C just says "it is controlled" and that there "is nothing offensive in the frequency response" which doesn't sound as appealing. The Tung-Sol says their 6550s give a "slightly warm midrange with a tight bottom end and have triple getters similar to the old GE 6550 tubes." The tube store has some nos JAN-GE6550a tubes for a hefty price but don't say much about them except they were made in Owensboro, KY. That doesn't jump out and say "buy me" either.

I like mids but don't want to mod for EL34, and tight bottom is nice so if I would be inclined to go with the Tung-Sol right now. Is there anyone that has any other suggestions than Tung-Sol 6550s?


----------



## RiverRatt

Those Owensboro, KY tubes are made in the old Ken-Rad factory, which produced tubes at least as recently as the mid 1990's. The quality of the later tubes was iffy at best. I know that SLM used these tubes in a lot of their products, mostly Ampeg SVT's and the Lee Jackson VL series. A lot of these were re-branded as GE tubes, but they were NOT the same tube as the older GE's. Shugang now owns the tooling and dies from the Ken-Rad factory and they make a 6550 that supposedly is closer to the older (better) US tubes.

Don't believe the Sovtek "bring out the crunch in guitars" hype. 6550's are more about "punch" than "crunch".


----------



## seeker of rock

RiverRatt said:


> Don't believe the Sovtek "bring out the crunch in guitars" hype. 6550's are more about "punch" than "crunch".



Thanks, man. I don't want to believe anything any manufacturer writes because they are all trying to move product. I'm just trying to get some input here from you fine folks on what 6550s are considered good or better than others.


----------



## MartyStrat54

seeker of rock said:


> Thanks, man. I don't want to believe anything any manufacturer writes because they are all trying to move product. I'm just trying to get some input here from you fine folks on what 6550s are considered good or better than others.



Well it's not only the manufacturers, it's the retail outlets as well and I think that may be what you are referring to. Tube Depot and the Tube Store both use tons of descriptive garbage to sell their tubes. We all laugh, because we have never really read a bad review. Every brand of EL34 is a winner in their minds.

Well the original 6550 was designed by Tung-Sol USA. These are probably the best 6550's made. Now the old Triple Getter GE would be a good tube as well, except I would be wary of those that were made later in time.

You're never going to hear a tube shootout either. Because if one or two tubes sounded the best, how would they sell the nasty one's? That's why tubes are just under speakers in the costs associated with experimenting. I mean if I bought a quad of 6550's and then a friend let me hear his 6550 amp with a different brand of tubes and it sounded better, that would suck. 

I know this much, I would stay away from the Sovtek's. That crunch you hear is the sound of collapsing cardboard. These retail stores probably have the best markup on the Sovteks. That means it is the cheapest tube out of the bunch. 

Some to consider. (Based on reliability. It is imperative to buy the Shuguangs from a reputable dealer that tests them above 500VDC.):

SED SV6550C

Tung-Sol 6550 New Production

6550 - Shuguang


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> I figure, all in all, my weekly playing time ranges from 2-10 hours (more often on the lower side of that range). That being said... What do you think I might expect to see out of my power tubes? Just out of curiosity.



Well, I don't want to twist your underpants, but let's look at the math.

If you play 5 hours per week, that is 260 hours per year. 3000 is the expected life of the tube in hours. 3000 divided by 260 equals 11.5 years.

2000 Hours = 7.7 years
1000 Hours = 3.8 years



However, this is true mathematically. If the power tubes are maintained (biased) and the amp is only run for this amount of time per week, then you can get a decade out of them. (Of course, this is based on the tubes being good for 3000 hours.)

Practically speaking, you should only replace tubes in an audio amplifier when you start to notice changes in the sound quality. Usually the tone will become "dull", and transients will seem to be blunted. Also, the gain of the amplifier will decrease noticeably. This is usually enough of a warning for tube replacement. Another good method for observing possible worn out tubes is to check the tube with a proper mutual conductance style tube tester. These are still available on the used market; though new ones have not been manufactured in many years. Two testers that are being manufactured today are the Maxi-Matcher and the Amplitrex AT-1000 Tube Tester. The Maxi-Matcher is for power tubes. It is suitable for testing 6L6, EL34, 6550 and EL84 types. The AT-1000 is for all types of modern tubes. If you cannot get your own tube tester, speak to me about tube testing.

RATT-Have you ever heard a figure being thrown out for the expected life of a modern CP power tube? I know NOS was good for 3 to 5000 and that military tubes were good for a minimum of 5000 hours. Do you have any actual facts to share?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Fo' Marty the "Tube King" hehe!



Damn, I think I'm ready to star in my first adult feature film.


----------



## MM54

Hey Alan, are you still interested in those 6L6's?


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it's not only the manufacturers, it's the retail outlets as well and I think that may be what you are referring to. Tube Depot and the Tube Store both use tons of descriptive garbage to sell their tubes. We all laugh, because we have never really read a bad review. Every brand of EL34 is a winner in their minds.
> 
> Well the original 6550 was designed by Tung-Sol USA. These are probably the best 6550's made. Now the old Triple Getter GE would be a good tube as well, except I would be wary of those that were made later in time.
> 
> You're never going to hear a tube shootout either. Because if one or two tubes sounded the best, how would they sell the nasty one's? That's why tubes are just under speakers in the costs associated with experimenting. I mean if I bought a quad of 6550's and then a friend let me hear his 6550 amp with a different brand of tubes and it sounded better, that would suck.
> 
> I know this much, I would stay away from the Sovtek's. That crunch you hear is the sound of collapsing cardboard. These retail stores probably have the best markup on the Sovteks. That means it is the cheapest tube out of the bunch.
> 
> Some to consider. (Based on reliability. It is imperative to buy the Shuguangs from a reputable dealer that tests them above 500VDC.):
> 
> SED SV6550C
> 
> Tung-Sol 6550 New Production
> 
> 6550 - Shuguang




This is really good info and what I was hoping someone would offer. Thanks, man. Long live The Tube King.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> RATT-Have you ever heard a figure being thrown out for the expected life of a modern CP power tube? I know NOS was good for 3 to 5000 and that military tubes were good for a minimum of 5000 hours. Do you have any actual facts to share?



From what I've read that Myles Rose has posted on that other forum, new EL34's are good for 1,500 - 3,000 hours and 6L6 types are roughly double that. I've also read that 2,000 hours is a more realistic figure for EL34's. This is all assuming that you get a good, solid tube to begin with. Oxygen left in a tube will shorten the filament life drastically as well as how hot they are biased. My experience with 6L6's has shown that they don't have to be biased nearly as hot as EL34's to sound good, which probably explains the longer lifespan. 

For a good read (if you're a tube junkie), check out this page, particularly the second section about cathodes and tube life. This info was also published in a Svetlana technical bulletin.

How Vacuum Tubes Work


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I've been to that site before. Well, 2000 hours is still a long time.

Now, EL34's don't last as long as 6L6's because the EL34's are really hard on their screens. If you run an EL34 with a dual voltage supply (dual rail), the EL34's will last a lot longer. 

6L6's are actually perfect for use in a guitar amp. They thrive on a single rail power supply. The plates and the screens are rated at almost the same voltage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Brought this over from a new thread. It belongs here.



> TWINAC:Weren't You guys checking out the EH 6CA7's or did I miss your conclusions somewhere???
> 
> If I were to Say CP what is Best IYHO? Tungsol EL34 B, SED "C"s, or EH 6CA7's?
> 
> Or should I save my pennies and go NOS RFT/Siemens?





> JON WILDER:In my analysis of the EH 6CA7s they sounded very similar to the JJ E34L, with the JJ E34L yielding a brighter sound than the EH. The Sylvania NOS 6CA7s seemed to sound "fuller" than both of them.
> 
> I did an electrical test between the JJ E34L and the EH 6CA7. Both in the same amp at full crank on a Power Brake with a multimeter hooked up across each screen resistor. Now at full crank on ANY amp you WILL overdissipate the screens and hence will see some "screen glow". This is what wears them out quickly when pushing them hard.
> 
> At full crank, the EH 6CA7 screens were drawing 35mA with the JJ E34Ls drawing about 36mA. This caused a 35-36V screen voltage drop at full clip, which with an idle screen voltage of 435 this translates to 400V at the screens. 400V @ 36mA = 14.4 watts screen dissipation...a bit above the 8 Watt max screen dissipation rating. Both were seeing about the same screen dissipation, yet the EH 6CA7's screens seemed to exhibit more screen glow than the JJ E34Ls did, which tells me that the JJ E34Ls have a bit more robust screen grid in them than the EH 6CA7s do that can much better tolerate the overdissipation of the screen.





> MARTYSTRAT54:I guarantee that you wouldn't be disappointed with the RFT's. There are still plenty of new ones left. Just make sure that the seller has "A" tubes" and not some of the "B" tubes. If the seller tests the tube at 500VDC, these are the "A" tubes. If the seller warns about using the tubes at over 450VDC, these are the "B" tubes.
> 
> NOS Sylvania 6CA7 versus EH 6CA7. Similar is some aspects. The NOS is tighter in the bass and low mids, but not by a huge difference. The NOS is more balanced in tone from low E to high E. I got this pair for $125. They tested as new. A pair of EH 6CA7's is $38. How do I feel? Let's just say I ordered a quad for my "other" 100 watt amp (Traynor YCS-100).
> 
> Conclusion: For the money, the 6CA7 is a sweet deal. If you want more brightness and you can't get it out of your amp, then I would take Jon's recommendation and go the JJ E34L route. Some Marshall's tend to be a little on the bright side, I would go with the 6CA7's in that case. Jon put both the JJ and the EH through a brutal test. In everyday use, you more than likely will not be pushing your tubes this hard.
> 
> RFT EL34-This is still one of my favorite EL34's. What a beautiful tube. Very sleek and slender with a dimple on the top of the tube. This is one of the warmest EL34's I've ever heard. Takes a beating well and can handle 500VDC like it's an ice cream cone. If I played Space Jazz, this would be the only tube I used. I would only put the Mullard xf1 or xf2 Double Getter EL34's above it for overall tonality. There are a lot of very expensive EL34's that I haven't tested, but one thing I can say is that the RFT is a winner.
> 
> Just so you know, RFT made tubes for about 20 companies including Telefunken. They were an East German company. I have some RCA's marked "Made in Gt. Britain" and they are actually RFT copies of Telefunken ECC83's.


----------



## RickyLee

OK you tube experts. I was just looking at some numbers that a tube seller was giving for a particular brand and model of power tubes. Same model and brand, he was giving current/mA numbers from a Maxi-Matcher Digital Tube Tester that had tested two different sets of 6L6's. Again, these are two brand new pairs of the same brand and model.

Results are:

First pair: Tube 1 = 38MA Tube 2 = 38MA

Second pair: Tube 1 = 17MA * Tube 2 = 18MA 

Now where I am going with this is, obviously I would set the bias on either pair if I were to install them in my amp. So I am figuring if I were to install the first pair with the higher test readings, they would be a hotter running/idling set and I would have to feed them less negative bias voltage. And the second pair would be a colder running/idling set and I would have to feed them more negative bias voltage to the control grid.

Then we have the characteristics of breakup and headroom. So . . . is this first pair with the higher current draw on the tester going to have more breakup than the second colder set? Now remember, that I am talking about both tubes biased at the same dissipation. As in setting both sets for a 60% dissipation for example. And will they have different behavior under heavy load - like as in the amp being pushed quite hard?

Let's hear what you got . . .


----------



## RiverRatt

If they both have a hard vaccuum and aren't gassy, I'd think they would sound the same biased at the same percent of maximum dissipation. I'd be suspicious of that set that's drawing more than double the current of the other, though. I'll bet they aren't sound tubes. I've got some 6L6's that draw a lot of current like those and they are gassy as hell. I'm running them in a Fender Super with about 490v on the plates and they start to glow a nice cherry red real quick. On the bright side, they do look pretty with the plates glowing cherry red and an eerie blue/violet glow crawling all over the innards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tha Maxi-Matcher is a damn good unit. I'm with Ratt on this. I would stay away from the hot set. They look like trouble now and they probably will be trouble down the road.

Tube vacuum (hardness) is different from electrical properties. Without actually hearing these tubes I would say that in a circuit, biased properly, they would sound similar, but there is also a chance that the hotter tubes would exhibit certain characteristics such as how much it would distort when driven hard. And it is hard to say how these hot tubes would react in a circuit that is being driven hard. Overall plate voltage would be a determining factor as well. With that being said, set two would probably work sweet in Ratt's Fender @ 490VDC.

Another thing to consider is that some tubes get sold (I seen this before) and they passed QC, but they have electrical values that won't allow the bias to be set. This happens about 1 to 3 percent of the time. It's frustrating to buy a set of tubes for your amp and you are unable to get it to bias. This happened most recently with a Tung-Sol EL34. Both tubes were "too cold" and wouldn't bias up. The tubes were exchanged and the next set was fine.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Right chaps and chapesses, I just had one of my marshall branded el34s start redplating on me and taking out the mains fuse, its all good as marshall had only installed them a couple of months ago and have replaced them (with the same type of el34 are marshall winged C's?)

Anyway im looking at getting a quad of RFTs for superior relability and if the tone is any better thats just a bonus, so here is an auction that looks pretty good to me, i just need confirmation that these are the real deal before i part with a rather large slice of my hard earned cash 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NOS-Siemens-EL34-Tubes-Matched-Quad-RFT-Telefunken-/150469592303?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can't go wrong with this seller. I have bought these tubes many times. They are perfect in every way. I tried to get more off of him, but he was out. He just recently came across some more. Grab a set while you can.

Here is a short review that you may have missed on this page.



> MARTYSTRAT54:I guarantee that you wouldn't be disappointed with the RFT's. There are still plenty of new ones left. Just make sure that the seller has "A" tubes" and not some of the "B" tubes. If the seller tests the tube at 500VDC, these are the "A" tubes. If the seller warns about using the tubes at over 450VDC, these are the "B" tubes.





> RFT EL34-This is still one of my favorite EL34's. What a beautiful tube. Very sleek and slender with a dimple on the top of the tube. This is one of the warmest EL34's I've ever heard. Takes a beating well and can handle 500VDC like it's an ice cream cone. If I played Space Jazz, this would be the only tube I used. I would only put the Mullard xf1 or xf2 Double Getter EL34's above it for overall tonality. There are a lot of very expensive EL34's that I haven't tested, but one thing I can say is that the RFT is a winner.


----------



## RiverRatt

Another + for the seller. I've bought a few sets from Bryan and the only one that I had trouble with he swapped out instantly for a more expensive set.


----------



## trippybrowns

I'm trying to get more warmth and gain and less headroom out of my MA100H. Any suggestions? If different power tubes would be usefull, any suggestions as to what ones to throw in?


----------



## MM54

Hey guys, I'm off to install my new pair of EH 6CA7's, I'll let you know what I think in a bit


----------



## MartyStrat54

trippybrowns said:


> I'm trying to get more warmth and gain and less headroom out of my MA100H. Any suggestions? If different power tubes would be usefull, any suggestions as to what ones to throw in?



Do you have the stock OE tubes in the MA? I gave you an answer for preamp tubes over in the Preamp Thread.

As far as power tubes, that's sort of tough. Maybe JOE or ALAN can recommend some form of the GT EL34M. I'm not real familiar with tubes that have different ratings. Some are designed to break up faster, but I feel that these tubes also wear out faster. However, if that is the sound you are after, then you will have to go with these.






See the number 5 on the label? These tubes come in varying hardness from 1 to 10 I believe. You would probably want a 3.


----------



## MM54

Before I scurry off, what's with Tube Depot's "Bias Point" thingy? I have 50 and 51, whatever that is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those numbers represent how close the current draw is between tubes. This assures that the tubes will bias up in the amp.


----------



## solarburn

The GT 34M's would be a good choice considering he wants less headroom, warmth and more gain. Go for the 34M's rated at 1-3 if you choose to try these. We all know RFT's would help but that's a bigger expense considering he would need a quad of them.

GT's ratings on these goes like this:

1-3
4-7
8-10=having the most clean headroom.


----------



## MM54

Well, I got my EH 6CA7's biased up to about 68%, sounds GREAT, in pretty much every way I can think of. More definition, more balls, thicker, heavier, warmer, etc.

The one draws like 5 or 6 mA more than the other one though, so they're not a perfect match (I can see a couple mA, but 5-6 is a little high). The one labeled '50' is hotter than the '51' in case anyone wonders.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, Jon Wilder didn't have any problem setting up my quad of EH6CA7's. I would almost have to say that the one tube was not marked correctly. 5 or 6mA is about as wide as you want to go. You might want to keep an eye on the hot one for bias drift. I would take a reading before the warranty is over and see if it is stable. 

I also bought another quad for my TSL100. Yeah, I like them. I may at some point walk to the gray side and try the JJE34L and the GT EL34M.

They are cheaper than a quad of matched xf2 Mullards.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, I'll probably be playing a lot the next few days, I'll check the bias on the hotter one until I know it's settled in, then check the colder one to see if it came up 

If something goes wrong with them, Tube Depot shall face my wrath!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I may at some point walk to the gray side and try the JJE34L and the GT EL34M.
> 
> They are cheaper than a quad of matched xf2 Mullards.



I'll send you a pair of GT EL34M's to play with for awhile if you want. I traded tubes with Joe last year sometime - he got my EL34M's and I got his E34L's for a couple of weeks. That's the second time I've used E34L's and I still wasn't terribly impressed. I think the EL34M's do just about everything better. 

I'm biased against the JJ's (pardon the pun). I think it's one thing to use an "M" in the part number to indicate that the GT's are modeled after a classic Mullard tube. I think JJ is way out of line attaching the "Tesla" brand to their name when they have done nothing to try to produce a tube that bears even a passing similarity to the old Telsa tubes, except make a JJ with blue glass.

But, what do I know. I just spent an hour troubleshooting my amp only to find out that it was a bad connection in my pedal board.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> are marshall winged C's?



I don't think this got answered. AFAIK Marshall quit using real St. Petersburg Svetlanas 5 or 6 years ago, about when New Sensor bought the brand name. My DSL came with St. Petersburg (Winged C) Svetlanas in 2000.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'll send you a pair of GT EL34M's to play with for awhile if you want.
> 
> But, what do I know. I just spent an hour troubleshooting my amp only to find out that it was a bad connection in my pedal board.



If I decide that I want to try them, I'll let you know.

Yeah that sucks. I hate when that happens, but at least you were able to figure it out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, but that's like the first rule - plug straight in to the amp. You got any spare 5751's or 12AY7's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you give all of your 5751's away? I'll look. I think I might have some.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you give all of your 5751's away? I'll look. I think I might have some.



Believe it or not, I have never owned a 5751. I just never felt any need for one. I think I've about got the amp wrapped up. All I need to do is finish the faceplate. There are some little things I want to do to it to neaten it up, like isolate the jacks and pots from the chassis and do the ground right, but I can live with it like it is for now. I started messing with it last night and popped a fuse when I accidentally grounded the speaker cable to the chassis so I put it back like it was. There was a bright blue flash and everything.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found another problem tonight, and it was an easy one thankfully. I was getting some noise like a bad preamp tube - a slight buzz at certain frequencies, intermittent white noise, etc. I finally zeroed in on one of the 6V6's being loose in its base. You could wiggle it and get the same type noises. I popped another tube in and now I'm noise-free. Is there any fix for a loose base, or should I chunk it in the garbage can?

I think I'm really starting to appreciate the benefits of using 6V6 tubes, not the least of which being the cost. I don't feel as bad about finding a bad 6V6 as I would a bad EL34. I've still got 3 or 4 spares. I need a backup 5R4 now, though. That's something I never thought I'd say.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I only could find two 1956 Tung-Sol's (5751), but they both test so strong they are like high gain 12AX7's. I let somebody try the lower reading one and they couldn't use it. I'll do a little more looking. I did find a Mullard GZ34 rec tube and I told Joe he can have it. I may have a 12AY7, but I'm having a hard time finding it.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> I don't think this got answered. AFAIK Marshall quit using real St. Petersburg Svetlanas 5 or 6 years ago, about when New Sensor bought the brand name. My DSL came with St. Petersburg (Winged C) Svetlanas in 2000.



My 2008 came with St. Petersburg Winged =C= and were dated to 2008.

Iv just ordered the harma retro EL34's for my 2203.

They are supposed to be a clone of the XF2 mullard, but they look very similar to the =C= just cheaper

Watford Valves :: Product - EL34/HARMA-RETRO


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> My 2008 came with St. Petersburg Winged =C= and were dated to 2008.
> 
> Iv just ordered the harma retro EL34's for my 2203.
> 
> They are supposed to be a clone of the XF2 mullard, but they look very similar to the =C= just cheaper
> 
> Watford Valves :: Product - EL34/HARMA-RETRO



Let us know what you think. I do not have much experience with the Harma tubes. I guess it is because most people get them from Watford in the UK. 

I'm not real big on the CRYO treatment and the money they want for it.

Regardless, let us know how these valves sound.


----------



## Procter2812

Hmmm

Well i just got them..

They look identical to the Mullard Reissues.

They have brown bases, and EXACTLY the same construction.

http://www.rainbowguitars.com/imagesproduct/NS/NSEL34MULLARD2-xl.jpg

Hopefully when i get em in they gonna sound like a mullard


----------



## Procter2812

bumpppppp


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well let's hear how those HARMA's sound! I would love to hear something positive about them. There are some sleeper EL34's out there, I just know it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anyone have any good tube stories to tell? Needing advice on a set for the ole amperoo? Do you have any exotic power tubes to show us, like say a Mullard xf2? If it's old and has a brown base, I want to hear about it.


----------



## MM54

I have a nice pair of 1625's, they've brown bases.

We could talk about those?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, fine! What did you pull them out of and are they still good?


----------



## Procter2812

Well im waiting to bias em up.

I want someone to come over to my thread in thw workbench section but none of the techies are there and im desperate to hear em singinnnnnn!!!!!!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, fine! What did you pull them out of and are they still good?



I pulled them out of a box, and I don't have the numbers (oddly enough) on my rollchart to test them, but they look good 

If I'm down in my shop today I'll try to remember to take a picture.


----------



## RickyLee

Wow - I used the search function and could not find any info here for these ECL86/6GW8 tubes. I have this old Hammond E112 chassis that I am thinking about tinkering on. Anyone know anything about or have any experience with the ECL86/6GW8 tubes that are half pentode half triode in one tube?? Are they worth purchasing and throwing in this Hammond amp chassis for a low wattage toy to play around with?

These tubes seem to be a bit scarce and pricey, so I figured I would see if any of you here had any experience with them. Plus I still can not find out what speaker load this Hammond amp runs for these as well as it's other output section that uses two 7591's in push pull with a bigger output transformer??


----------



## MM54

Bah, for a second I thought I had a dozen 6GW8's, but they're 6GH8's. I'll double check my other list of what I have laying around and I'll let you know if I come across any.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Wow - I used the search function and could not find any info here for these ECL86/6GW8 tubes. I have this old Hammond E112 chassis that I am thinking about tinkering on. Anyone know anything about or have any experience with the ECL86/6GW8 tubes that are half pentode half triode in one tube?? Are they worth purchasing and throwing in this Hammond amp chassis for a low wattage toy to play around with?
> 
> These tubes seem to be a bit scarce and pricey, so I figured I would see if any of you here had any experience with them. Plus I still can not find out what speaker load this Hammond amp runs for these as well as it's other output section that uses two 7591's in push pull with a bigger output transformer??



Ricky-I put some info on the Ruby tubes at this link location.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/12160-jj-e34l-vs-ruby-el34bht.html

As far as the ECL86's, I think I have some, but yeah they are pricey. It's the sort of tube that was made when tubes ruled the universe. Not so nowadays. I probably had the same chassis (well two of them) as you have. I ended up gutting both of them for parts and selling the iron (XFMR's).

This is the same situation as my Randall RG-150 amp. It uses 8417's and you can't buy them anymore. Used, they are about $80 each. I can't sell this amp because of this. Who want's to buy an amp that uses obscure tube? Same with what you are facing. You could find some ECL86's and use the amp, but when the tubes go bad in two or three years, then what? 

The ECL86 is like the TV with the built in VCR. If one side goes bad the whole tube is useless.


----------



## MM54

To toss this out there while I'm thinking of it, I have (literally) a dozen of these, could they be useful for anything, ever?

http://www.shinjo.info/frank/sheets/093/6/6GH8.pdf

Reading that spec sheet, I'm thinking not


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, never throw out a good tube. Someone at some point may want it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you see the score Alan made? Wow. He got him some really nice stuff this time for $100.


----------



## MM54

I saw it, I'm jealous. That kind of thing never pops up around here, although I've not made it to many yard sales this summer (I was hoping to hit a ton).

Anyways, here's a picture of the 1625's. They're both RCA, I think the date code is '56? I'm not sure, I don't remember  Perhaps you can see it in the picture.


----------



## RickyLee

Thanks guys. I think I have an old Audio Guild Magnatone that uses those 6GH8 tubes.

I think it was the driver tube for that amp??

Anyway, on those 6GW8's, I am going to try to pick up a couple just to check the amp out and hear it in it's original state. But I am already thinking it might be a better idea to rewire it to use EL84's as it is a 9 pin socket and there is a couple other 9 pin sockets there to use as driver tube and input as well. I am thinking that the output transformer should adapt to EL84's. But I have given up for now on searching for info on the one power trans and the two output trans that this Hammond has. I have googled the numbers on the transformers but can't find SHITE!!

I am going to figure the 2 X 7591 push pull will use a 8 ohm load and I will try an 8 ohm load on the 6GW8/ECL86 output as well. But I have to still get the 6GW8's, and rectifier tubes EZ81 & GZ34 as well to even see if this thing functions. I took continuity checks on the XFMR's and evrything seems to be OK in that regard. Old caps in this thing of course, but I will power it up slowly with my VariAC of course.


----------



## MM54

Look into SS replacements for the rectifier, they'll probably be cheaper for the sake of finding out if it even still works.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I saw it, I'm jealous. That kind of thing never pops up around here, although I've not made it to many yard sales this summer (I was hoping to hit a ton).
> 
> Anyways, here's a picture of the 1625's. They're both RCA, I think the date code is '56? I'm not sure, I don't remember  Perhaps you can see it in the picture.



Were't tubes still cool looking in the 50's. I mean those are old, late 30's style of tubes. The PV came in at the top and I bet those puppies worked at above 500VDC. Some of them old power tubes worked at a wickedly high B+. They're beautiful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey I thought that those 1625's looked familiar. I looked them up and they indeed are high wattage power tubes and were used in radio transmitting as well. Anyway, they are very similar to an 807 or a 5933. They are called a beam power tube like a 6L6.

Audiophiles run tubes like this in their amps. If all of them are good, you should try to move some.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a handful of odd power tubes for you.

Philco (RCA?) 6Y6G




Early octal beam power tetrode, used in single-ended circuits for about 6w of output.

Amperex EL86




Designed for single-ended radio amps, has some weird anode voltages - designed to be used without a transformer.

RCA 8BQ5




Essentially an 8-volt EL84. Why? I don't know.

Here's the latest evolution of the 5E3x2 showing her new aluminum faceplate. I got a waterslide decal inkjet printer kit to dress it up with. Still trying to get a nice finish on the aluminum.






Marty, I think I may have to go with the two 8" Weber alnicos. It just feels right for this amp. Using the 8's takes away some of the bass (a good thing) and it gives it a great out-of-control-tweed sound, especially with a good boost in front of it, and that's with the stock Crate 8's. I've still got a baffle board here so it's not like I can't try both.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I saw it, I'm jealous. That kind of thing never pops up around here, although I've not made it to many yard sales this summer (I was hoping to hit a ton).



Don't get too jealous. I was scavenging for tubes long before we started this thread. Before this, my best score was that Magnavox console stereo that turned into the 5E3X2 amp. I've netted 3 of those Sonotone side-getters, and that's about my best find. I never would have imagined having a weekend like this. It's like winning the lottery. 2 amps, a 2x12 cabinet, a bunch of nice old 6L6's and a real Telefunken ECC83 in one purchase. I probably won't see this kinda luck again.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Nice score, Alan. Great little amp you made. It's really cool.


----------



## RickyLee

That's funny - the person I got this Hammond from had originally told me the EF86 was one of the tubes it runs. But it is not stamped on the chassis next to any of the the tube sockets.

All the tube sockets have their required tube types stamped on the chassis.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm sorry - that's what I get for posting so late. That tube is an EL86.


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Nice score, Alan. Great little amp you made. It's really cool.



Thanks, Lisa. It was fun to build, especially since I didn't have to spend much money on it at all.


----------



## MM54

Alan - where did you get a waterslide decal kit? I didn't know they made such things, I really could use one for various things.


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't tried it yet but I'm hoping it works as advertised. I've got my graphics ready to print. I'll post the results.

Custom Decal System


----------



## MM54

Let me know how it goes, if it works I'll be heading out to staples to see if they carry those sets


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> That's funny - the person I got this Hammond from had originally told me the EF86 was one of the tubes it runs. But it is not stamped on the chassis next to any of the the tube sockets.
> 
> All the tube sockets have their required tube types stamped on the chassis.



He may have been thinking about a different chassis. The one's I had did use two EF86's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't tried it yet but I'm hoping it works as advertised. I've got my graphics ready to print. I'll post the results.
> 
> Custom Decal System



You going to put racing flames on each end of the front panel?


----------



## MM54

Well, I got a little mini-website set up, working great. I'll be cataloging all my off tubes in it in case anyone needs any. As of now I have like ten in there, but it's not to horribly slow of a process.

Once I get a little more variety listed, I'll put the link out for people to see.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You going to put racing flames on each end of the front panel?



Only if I have room after I install the Holley 4-barrel kit, the Hurst shifter, and a blower. The speakers are custom-design Thrush glass packs. I'm thinking of adding nitrous if I can figure out how to tie it in to the cathodes via a pull-boost. 

Here's what I printed. I still have some polishing to do before I try to apply these. Honestly, I think you could do the same thing with a sheet of inkjet photo paper and an aerosol can of clear lacquer. I managed to work our Jack Russell and my wife's initials into the design. And yes, my initials do spell out JAM. 






Did we ever figure out where Josh has gotten off to? I think Joe must have gone looking for him.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Well, I got a little mini-website set up, working great. I'll be cataloging all my off tubes in it in case anyone needs any. As of now I have like ten in there, but it's not to horribly slow of a process.
> 
> Once I get a little more variety listed, I'll put the link out for people to see.



Cool. Looks like we're getting another dealer in the neighborhood. 

If you want to list those 6L6's, I've got more stuff than I can sort through right now. I still plan to pick them up, but I have so much going on right now I have no idea when it'll be. I'm sorry for dragging this out so long. Maybe that 12BA6 will help to smooth it over?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think you are better off with the decal stock versus white, glossy photo paper.

I dig the JAM, MDM and Dog stickers. Looks swell. Are you saying that you want a really nice shine on the aluminum before you apply the decals? Do the decals apply dry, or are they water based?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, they are real waterslide decals. I'm a little skeptical - we'll see how they turn out. They tend to bleed red ink when you spray the lacquer on. I'm letting them dry until tomorrow evening just to be safe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well then that is what I was wondering. With the water, won't it affect your aluminum finish?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think so. I tried one and I think it'll be fine. I'm doing a brushed finish, so it doesn't spot like it would if it was shiny.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's looking more and more like a pro job. I should go and pull my 35 watt Bogen out. Those 7868 power tubes are screamers. It has an EZ81/6CA4 rec tube, so it truly is an all tube amp. One thing I remember is it was a good harmonica amp. Lots of sag with that EZ81.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I can live with the results. It's a little amateurish, but then again, so is the rest of the amp. The decals don't look as obvious without a flash.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I can live with the results. It's a little amateurish, but then again, so is the rest of the amp. The decals don't look as obvious without a flash.







I dig it!!!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Cool. Looks like we're getting another dealer in the neighborhood.
> 
> If you want to list those 6L6's, I've got more stuff than I can sort through right now. I still plan to pick them up, but I have so much going on right now I have no idea when it'll be. I'm sorry for dragging this out so long. Maybe that 12BA6 will help to smooth it over?



I don't plan to compete in the common-tube market here, Marty's got that one covered 

The site is as much for me as it anyone else, so I can search if I happen to have a specific tube laying around if someone needs one. Right now I have about eight feet of old calculator paper laying in four different spots with all the tubes and info on them listed.

Like I said before, no rush on the 6L6's, whenever's fine. Again, thanks for that 12BA6, it's great to have the ability to listen to the radio in my shop again!



RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I can live with the results. It's a little amateurish, but then again, so is the rest of the amp. The decals don't look as obvious without a flash.



That looks awesome, did the waterslides work pretty well?


----------



## RiverRatt

Better than I thought they would, but not perfect. The smaller the decal, the harder it was to work with. I mangled a couple trying to position them. If they ever fold up or an edge turns under, forget it. Ovals seem to work better than rectangles. I think if the aluminum had been shiny and smooth it would have been easy to shoot the panel with a few light coats of lacquer once I had the decals on and they would have looked more natural.

You have to print the decal sheet (8.5" x 5.5"), then spray it with clear lacquer. The second sheet I did turned out much better. It's best to do 3 or 4 very light coats and let them dry well between or else the red ink bleeds into the lacquer. The lacquer is actually what makes the waterslide decal - it bonds with the ink and the coating on the paper. Like I said before, I didn't see any real difference in the decal paper and any standard coated photo paper. I may try an experiment and see if doesn't work just as well.


----------



## MM54

Waterslide decals always remind me of building model cars several years back (that glue is smelly).

I might give it a shot with photo paper, I think we have some lacquer around here somewhere. If it works, I'll be very excited.


----------



## seeker of rock

I'm about to order some power tubes. From what you guys told me, Tung Sol is probably one of the better 6550 new production tubes. Using them in a 2004. Unless I hear opposition or bad experiences, that's the brand I'm buying.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SEEKER-Those are solid and worth buying.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


>



Man that looks like a little VOX or something. You'll probably never want to sell it. Can't wait to see the Ampeg get restored.


----------



## thrawn86

Nice job Alan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I don't plan to compete in the common-tube market here, Marty's got that one covered



You are more than welcome to try and sell your tubes any way you can. Try using the classifieds here on the forum. I bet you can sell some. Only problem is you may have to field a bunch of questions about the tubes. Where to use the tube, what can I expect from the tube, etc. (Trust me, I know.)


----------



## LuredMaul

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I can live with the results. It's a little amateurish, but then again, so is the rest of the amp. The decals don't look as obvious without a flash.




You used a Crate G40-C combo shell??????


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, a friend of mine works at a music store and they were about to throw it away. So I gave him $10 to save it from the dump.

It's really too small for this much amp, but the whole idea was to make it on a very limited budget. I was worried that I put the tubes too close together.

Here's everything loaded into the Crate chassis. I changed the heater windings and added a ground bus, but it was about done at this point.


----------



## Procter2812

Well iv finally got the Harmas biased up thanks to Marshall over the phone, Was hoping for some more help on here but none of the techies chimed in..

Ahh well yeah they sound great.

Although Marshalls way of biasing is to just turn the trimpot to between -35 and -40v on pin 5.

Iv just left it at -37v

they sound great, as good as the winged =C=

I still dont quite trust what marshall told me so im gonna waittttt for some guidence off one of the techs here


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wondered if Marshall took the time to do it right. That method does not take into account the differences between tube sets. Sure, it might be fine for some tubes, but it cold be cold on others. 

I take the B+ voltage and it's best to read it with the power tubes in loading the B+. Then I apply the 70 percent formula and set the bias accordingly.

Procter, I'm sure you know the formula. If not, it is as follows. Say your B+ is 470VDC. An EL34 is a 25W dissipation tube. 

25 time .7 = 17.5 
17.5 divided by 470 = 0.037 or 37mv (37mA) So this would be the max setting.

Now if you noticed, that is what you set your bias to, but it is by chance it turned out that way. Your B+ could be different.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wondered if Marshall took the time to do it right. That method does not take into account the differences between tube sets. Sure, it might be fine for some tubes, but it cold be cold on others.
> 
> I take the B+ voltage and it's best to read it with the power tubes in loading the B+. Then I apply the 70 percent formula and set the bias accordingly.
> 
> Procter, I'm sure you know the formula. If not, it is as follows. Say your B+ is 470VDC. An EL34 is a 25W dissipation tube.
> 
> 25 time .7 = 17.5
> 17.5 divided by 470 = 0.037 or 37mv (37mA) So this would be the max setting.
> 
> Now if you noticed, that is what you set your bias to, but it is by chance it turned out that way. You B+ could be different.



Yeah this is the thing i explained this over the phone and they just ended up telling me to bias it using the PIN 5 method between -35 and -40v which to me sounded like bull.

I agree with your formula but having not biased the JCM800 before, i wanted some guidance off the techies of where to take the reading from on the board (PCB)

But i just ended up taking my reading off the Grids (pin 5) where it showed -37v which they told me was fine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you have a bias tool like a Bias Rite? This is what you need to set the bias safely on an 800. These are the sockets that have a wire that goes to the DMM. You stick the socket into the power tube socket and replace the tube and do your readings.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you have a bias tool like a Bias Rite? This is what you need to set the bias safely on an 800. These are the sockets that have a wire that goes to the DMM. You stick the socket into the power tube socket and replace the tube and do your readings.



Yeah Wkchamp had one and so did RobS and they said they were useless.

Basically all the biasrite is, is a 1 ohm resistor.

I have some 1 ohm resistors here (1 Watt)

I got told to connect the 1 ohm resistor to ground and to Pin 8 which is tied to Pin 1. But isnt pin 1/8 tied to ground? But that cant be right?

The TSL's bias system is just a 1 ohm shunt method taken off the Pin 5 voltage according to Marshall

Marshall told me over the phone to read the voltage off of the grid and bias between -35v and -40v. They then told me that using the 1 ohm resistor just allows you to read the current in Ma when you can just do it using the multimeter and i will be fine.

And just to let you know my Pv is 468 (470) volts on pin 3.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah Wilder's got my Bias Rite and will be dissecting it for shits and giggles. Look forward to hearing about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well while it's true that it contains a one ohm resistor, the package allow safe testing of the tubes. Can you do it with a one ohm resistor? Sure, but I ain't gonna do it that way.

Your voltage drop with the one ohm resistor would be off of pin 5.


----------



## RiverRatt

If Marco said it was useless, I'd listen to him. He's an authority on useless. 

Like Marty said, you can do it with the 1-ohm resistor, but if you're not comfortable working with a heart-stopping 450 - 500 vdc at your fingertips, they are certainly not useless. If you don't want to support Weber, get a bias probe that measures plate voltage, and one that measures bias current (mA) or bias voltage (mV) and a decent multimeter.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey you guys know any real good brands for KT-66's. I prolly cant afford NOS ones. I have the Gold Lions now. And I really like them. Not looking to change them anytime soon. But just didnt know if there were more out there than I have seen.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JJ KT66

Sino KT66

Sovtek KT66

Tung-Sol KT66 New Production

Shuguang KT66

Shuguang Treasure KT66-Z

Gold Lion KT66

I believe this is all that are currently available.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Marty. Those are the ones that I knew of. I have a set of Tung-Sol's and a cheap set of Sino's. I didnt know if there was more than that or not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is some talk that TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) will be introducing some KT tubes like the 66 and 88. If so, these will be Shuguang's as that is where they get their tubes from.


----------



## MM54

Oddity of the day: My trio of Almost New In Box 816 tubes. They're a half-wave mercury vapor rectifier, 4 pins, plate voltage comes in the top. They're interesting, and would be very bad to be near if they broke 






They have a sticker on them from a local tube wholesale place from the 60's.


----------



## MM54

Alan - wasn't it you looking for a 6GW8? It turns out I do have one.

Search for it here (my little incomplete catalog)
http://www.mm54.net/tubes/index.php


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah anything with mercury in them are nasty ass tubes if broken. Old half wave rectifiers. Back when the DC had a lot of ripple in it.


----------



## MM54

You know, as much as I like the super old 4-Pin tubes, I've been doing a lot of research while populating my inventory sheet with all the tubes I have laying around, and they crammed some pretty neat shit into Compactron tubes.

I have one that's a triple triode, and one that is has two beam pentodes in it! At the same time though, there are some that are just rectifiers with 8 extra pins


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Alan - wasn't it you looking for a 6GW8? It turns out I do have one.
> 
> Search for it here (my little incomplete catalog)
> http://www.mm54.net/tubes/index.php



Nope. I was looking for 7199's and EZ81/6CA5's. I don't need the EZ81 anymore - I decided on a 5-watt with a bridge rectifier.


----------



## MM54

Ah. Who was it that was looking for those 

I'm too young to forget as much as I do


----------



## MM54

AH HA! It was Ricky (yay for looking back a few pages).

I'll leave him a message I suppose.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. I was looking for 7199's and EZ81/6CA5's. I don't need the EZ81 anymore - I decided on a 5-watt with a bridge rectifier.



Alan-Are you switching over to a SS rectifier? I think I have some EZ81's. If you go with SS it will raise your B+ quite a bit. You will want to measure it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> AH HA! It was Ricky (yay for looking back a few pages).
> 
> I'll leave him a message I suppose.



Good, we don't need you being like me. I need some young guns that I can count on.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Are you switching over to a SS rectifier? I think I have some EZ81's. If you go with SS it will raise your B+ quite a bit. You will want to measure it.



No, I'm just looking for a new toy to build. I think I'm going to try the AX84 P1. It's a Marshally-sounding 5 watt single ended amp that uses one EL84 and one 12AX7. It would be easy enough to sub a tube rectifier but I don't know that you'd get much sag with a SE design like that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I did a lot of house cleaning when I moved. I took a beating on EBAY with most of my stuff. I had all sorts of EL84 PT's and OPT's. All I kept were the custom hand wound stuff and I'm still thinking about what to do with them.

I even had some 7199 power trannies that I sold.

So you are saying that you want to build yet another amp? Better get the dog house cleaned out.


----------



## RickyLee

Hey TubeMasters!

I tried some of those NOS 1979 EL84's from Russia in my Traynor Bassmate last night and had some wacky stuff going on. I modded the amp to an adjustable bias circuit and have 1 ohm precision bias resistors on pins 3 to ground. 

The amp runs the EL84's a bit hot on the plates at about 380VDC. I have been using JJ EL84's and Sovtek EL84M's with no issues.

Last night I tried these Russian 6BQ5/6n14n's and my 1 ohm bias resistor blew on one tube socket - twice. The second time I had changed the small precision type out to the beefier 2 watt metal 1 ohmers. And it still blew on the same socket. Now when I say it blew, there was no physical sign or smell or anything. I had biased up the amp, went to play it and noticed i lost some volume and the sound was quite distorted. That is when I noticed the bad 1 ohm resistor. The resistor was "OPEN", no resistance or path between it's leads.

So if you run a power tube over it's rated plate voltage, is this what to expect? There was no redplating going on. When I put a jumper wire from pin 3 to ground - in place of the open 1 ohm resistor - it was working fine. Figured I better not chance it and put the JJ's back in.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I did a lot of house cleaning when I moved. I took a beating on EBAY with most of my stuff. I had all sorts of EL84 PT's and OPT's. All I kept were the custom hand wound stuff and I'm still thinking about what to do with them.
> 
> I even had some 7199 power trannies that I sold.
> 
> So you are saying that you want to build yet another amp? Better get the dog house cleaned out.



Do you have an EL84 PT that could power an 18-watt clone? If you do, I might revise my previous statement. I don't think the PT I have could do more than two tubes. PM me if you got anything to sell.

Have you ever used transformers from these guys?

ClassicTone Transformers By Magnetic Components, Inc.

I used one of their Fender 40 watt clones as the OT in my 5E3x2 and it sounds really good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I sold all of my loose transformers. A year ago, I had all kinds.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> Last night I tried these Russian 6BQ5/6n14n's and my 1 ohm bias resistor blew on one tube socket - twice. The second time I had changed the small precision type out to the beefier 2 watt metal 1 ohmers. And it still blew on the same socket. Now when I say it blew, there was no physical sign or smell or anything. I had biased up the amp, went to play it and noticed i lost some volume and the sound was quite distorted. That is when I noticed the bad 1 ohm resistor. The resistor was "OPEN", no resistance or path between it's leads.
> 
> So if you run a power tube over it's rated plate voltage, is this what to expect? There was no redplating going on. When I put a jumper wire from pin 3 to ground - in place of the open 1 ohm resistor - it was working fine. Figured I better not chance it and put the JJ's back in.



It sounds like you have a bad tube. Those 6P14P's should be able to handle anything a guitar amp throws at them for at least a few thousand hours - IIRC they are rated for 5,000 to 10,000 hours of use. 

First though, looking at the schematic from your amp, it appears that both cathodes were run straight to ground originally with no 1-ohm resistor. That resistor is just there to measure the voltage drop to determine the bias current. A 1-ohm resistor makes it easy - it's a 1-1 ratio, but you could also use a 10 ohm resistor and divide your reading across it by 10 to get your bias current.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Hey TubeMasters!
> 
> I tried some of those NOS 1979 EL84's from Russia in my Traynor Bassmate last night and had some wacky stuff going on. I modded the amp to an adjustable bias circuit and have 1 ohm precision bias resistors on pins 3 to ground.
> 
> The amp runs the EL84's a bit hot on the plates at about 380VDC. I have been using JJ EL84's and Sovtek EL84M's with no issues.
> 
> Last night I tried these Russian 6BQ5/6n14n's and my 1 ohm bias resistor blew on one tube socket - twice. The second time I had changed the small precision type out to the beefier 2 watt metal 1 ohmers. And it still blew on the same socket. Now when I say it blew, there was no physical sign or smell or anything. I had biased up the amp, went to play it and noticed i lost some volume and the sound was quite distorted. That is when I noticed the bad 1 ohm resistor. The resistor was "OPEN", no resistance or path between it's leads.
> 
> So if you run a power tube over it's rated plate voltage, is this what to expect? There was no redplating going on. When I put a jumper wire from pin 3 to ground - in place of the open 1 ohm resistor - it was working fine. Figured I better not chance it and put the JJ's back in.



Well Ricky, I posted on this already and maybe I hit the wrong button. Very quickly, I want to say that I have never personally come across an EL84 amp that is running 380VDC on the plates. Most are 285 to a hot 315VDC. Looking at the tubes spec's, it states the maximum plate voltage is 300. Putting 380 on an EL84 is going to spell trouble. However, I will have to rethink my views on the JJ's and Sovtek's. I have no idea how they are handling that B+. I would contact Traynor and ask what the B+ is supposed to be on this amp?

I had bought over 50, 1967 Soviet military EL84's. Most people liked them better than a Sylvania Black Plate. They were very hot sellers. I never had a single tube returned. Of course, none of my customer's were sticking them in amps with 380VDC. Something ain't right my friend.


----------



## MM54

Most of my stash of tubes exist to me as a scribble of pen on old calculator tape, so when I went and dug out this 6GW8 for Ricky, I was quite surprised to be reminded that it's a NIB Realistic Lifetime (you know, with the gold pins?). I can make out " Gt. Britian" in the stamp, Realistic relabeled tubes, right? A lot of the writing on this one looks just like that writing on an IEC Mullard 12AX7 I have.

The pity is that I told him a price based on its existence as an untested scribble on calculator tape


----------



## RiverRatt

The schematic shows +395.

http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/720606_YBA2_AB.gif


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Most of my stash of tubes exist to me as a scribble of pen on old calculator tape, so when I went and dug out this 6GW8 for Ricky, I was quite surprised to be reminded that it's a NIB Realistic Lifetime (you know, with the gold pins?). I can make out " Gt. Britian" in the stamp, Realistic relabeled tubes, right? A lot of the writing on this one looks just like that writing on an IEC Mullard 12AX7 I have.
> 
> The pity is that I told him a price based on its existence as an untested scribble on calculator tape



Does it have a Blackburn date code? Realistic re-branded tubes from just about everybody. If it doesn't have a Blackburn code, it's probably a Matsushita.

You know what's fun about the Realistic lifetime tubes? You can still take them into a Radio Shack and exchange them for a good tube. Try it sometime and watch the salesperson's reaction. I've read of people doing this with 12AX7's and ending up with a shiny new Sovtek for their troubles.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> You know what's fun about the Realistic lifetime tubes? You can still take them into a Radio Shack and exchange them for a good tube. Try it sometime and watch the salesperson's reaction. I've read of people doing this with 12AX7's and ending up with a shiny new Sovtek for their troubles.



OH MY GOD 

I have a TON of Realistic Lifetime tubes, I'll take them in sometime and let you know how it goes 

You have no idea how many times I've joked about getting them replaced since they have a lifetime warranty.

Anyways, here it is:


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> OH MY GOD
> 
> I have a TON of Realistic Lifetime tubes, I'll take them in sometime and let you know how it goes
> 
> You have no idea how many times I've joked about getting them replaced since they have a lifetime warranty.
> 
> Anyways, here it is:



You have any LT 12AX7's with slant O getters or D getters that test strong?


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You have any LT 12AX7's with slant O getters or D getters that test strong?



Sadly no, the only Lifetime tubes I have are oddball ones like the 6GW8, a 10JT8, etc.


----------



## solarburn

Bummer...hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The schematic shows +395.



I see that, but it still doesn't make it right. I am only stating the specs on a tube. If they say 300VDC, I have to believe them. I took an old 20 watt mono amp and it was running 303 unloaded and about 294 loaded. Could you imagine the problems Marshall would have had with 395 on the plates in a 201 or 401?

The other thing is you really don't get any more power running a high VDC. That's why there are tube curve charts for plotting power.

Now the bad boy of the 6BQ5/EL84's family is the 7189. Yes in AB1, this tube can take 400VDC, but the schematic is calling for an EL84.

I mean if I had 20 of the 7189's, I would have them in my 401 biased hot. The fact is, I have a quad of Telefunkens, Amperex and RCA's. They are all pricey tubes. I would never put them in an environment like the Traynor. I'd be burning money up.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've always heard that the old Marshall 18 watters sounded so good because they ran a low 285v. The new 1974X amps are supposed to be way up in the 300's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would still call Traynor about this. Maybe the amp was originally slated for 7189's.

If not, I would consider a PT change. You would have to address some components that feed the 12AX7's, but you really do need to get this voltage down.

Hell, maybe I call Traynor myself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've always heard that the old Marshall 18 watters sounded so good because they ran a low 285v. The new 1974X amps are supposed to be way up in the 300's.



The 18 watt amps did sound better. They had a better preamp circuit with an extra 12AX7. They also had an EZ81 rec tube. In their day, the 20 watt model did not sound as good as the 18. The 20W had SS rectification.

I don't know about how the kits sound, but they still just have two 12AX7's in the 20W model. I think the 18 had a regular PI and the 20 watt models could have had a cathodyne PI.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's what I've been wanting to build for a long time:

http://ceriatone.com/images/layoutPic/marshallLayout/18wattTMBceriatone.jpg

It's the perfect 18-watt clone. It's got a stock channel, a TMB channel, and it's got the PPIMV mod that is essentially out of the circuit if it's on 10. I think the tone stack is definitely a better use of space. I've never been a big fan of tremolo anyways. I think I could cover a lot of bases with this amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, that's a sweet one. I don't know what the shipping is. I wonder what a Metro clone costs when you look at the shipping?

What's pure bliss in getting a small amp and having it just match the bands volume. You can play your leads full out and it sounds so damn creamy. I did this on several occasions with my 401. I mean a 40 watt EL84 amp is a screamer with the internal speaker and a 112 satellite cab. 

A 15-20 watt cab could be used in a live situation with great success. A lot has to do with the PA system. However, a 15 or 20 watt amp pushing a 412 with Eminence Wizards is going to sound as big or bigger than a DSL50.


----------



## RiverRatt

Small amp's ass. I'm getting full of 2x12 or 4x10 small amps. That Ampeg small combo is almost as big as my Marshall 4x12 cab. If I do that 18-watt the way I want to, it'll be a bluesbreaker-size amp. I've always wanted to build one with a G12H30 and a Greenback. It would probably be cheaper to buy an Avatar cabinet and build heads, though. 

Speaking of 2x12 cabs, I made a trip to Jackson, TN last weekend and visited the two music stores still there. It felt like coming home. They had to show me around and I got to try some good gear. I was a part of that scene for over 10 years and I still know the older guys at the stores. I hate pulling rank on the younger guys, but there's something satisfying in the owner coming out and dragging your ass back to the office while the kid sits there looking stupid. Maybe I just hated that all the times it happened to me when I was the kid!

Anyway, Bandstand had a Marshall 2x12 that I'd never seen before. It was a 2xG12T75 cab, but the speakers were mounted on a diagonal and it wasn't as wide as a 1936. I didn't get the model number off it but they only wanted $250 for it and I've been thinking about picking it up. It would make a great grab-n-go extension cabinet for just about any amp I own, and I could put just about any smaller head on it and get a great sound.


----------



## seeker of rock

Has anyone used Sylvania power tubes in their Marshall amp? My tech has me talked into NOS power tubes instead of CP, and recommended his favorite 6550 Sylvania with GE 6550 in second. He said the Sylvanias, to his ears, have a much more vibrant and sparkly sound. He called the GE nos tubes really nice and "brutish". What swayed me to nos was the longevity he mentioned, and if they really last that much longer than CP tubes, it makes financial sense to make the investment up front.


----------



## RickyLee

On my Traynor Bassmate and it's high B+, it actually was at about 430V until I tweaked the B+ rail and got it down to the 380'ish area. Now that I have a VariAC, I might use it for that amp.

But anyway, that is normal B+ for these Bassmates. There is also a model that came with 6V6's and it was still hot on the B+ as well, but not as high as the 6BQ5 model.

I am curious about these 7189 tubes in this Traynor. Are they the same pinout as the 6BQ5/EL84?


----------



## RickyLee

Here we go:

The 7189A Vacuum Tube


----------



## MartyStrat54

seeker of rock said:


> Has anyone used Sylvania power tubes in their Marshall amp? My tech has me talked into NOS power tubes instead of CP, and recommended his favorite 6550 Sylvania with GE 6550 in second. He said the Sylvanias, to his ears, have a much more vibrant and sparkly sound. He called the GE nos tubes really nice and "brutish". What swayed me to nos was the longevity he mentioned, and if they really last that much longer than CP tubes, it makes financial sense to make the investment up front.



As long as the Sylvania tubes are Sylvania. Philips bought Sylvania and the company was known as Philips ECG. They made the exact same Sylvania tubes for a while. Then they became geared more for military use and the tube format changed. (I'm talking 6550 here.) Early ECG's or Sylvania's sound the best. I'm not much of a fan of 6550's, but if I was running them, the Sylvania's would be the way to go.

And he is right about them lasting longer. How much are the tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Here we go:
> 
> The 7189A Vacuum Tube



These are a great way to go if you can find a matched set. As the website states,"You can safely substitute a 7189 tube for a 6BQ5 (sound issues aside) but you might think twice about substituting an EL84 for the beefier 7189."

The sound issues would be sticking a 7189 in a 285V circuit when it really wants to be in a 385V circuit, to sound its best.

And as stated, you want a 7189, not a 7189A. You can get the "A" to work, but you would have to rewire the tube sockets. The 7189 has the same pin out as the EL84.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> And as stated, you want a 7189, not a 7189A. You can get the "A" to work, but you would have to rewire the tube sockets. The 7189 has the same pin out as the EL84.



I think you can still use the 7189A as long as your amp doesn't have anything on pin 1. The only difference between the two is that pin 1 and 2 are both tied to the first grid on the 7189A and pin 1 isn't used on the 7189. You should be safe with most amps but double-check first.


----------



## MM54

No interesting tubes for me to share today guys, sorry 

Does anyone know where Jon's disappeared to, though?


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> No interesting tubes for me to share today guys, sorry
> 
> Does anyone know where Jon's disappeared to, though?



I've noticed too. I wonder if his internet service is down again...

I'll have to give him a call and see. He may be out for the weekend too. He's been play'n out here and there with friends.


----------



## MM54

I've not seen/talked to him since Tuesday I think it was.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think you can still use the 7189A as long as your amp doesn't have anything on pin 1. The only difference between the two is that pin 1 and 2 are both tied to the first grid on the 7189A and pin 1 isn't used on the 7189. You should be safe with most amps but double-check first.



I should have clarified that. Problem is, a lot of amps did use pin 1 as a tie point.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've noticed too. I wonder if his internet service is down again...
> 
> I'll have to give him a call and see. He may be out for the weekend too. He's been play'n out here and there with friends.



Well let me know. He has some parts off of my JMP that he forgot to install. I've been trying to get them back for a month now. It's starting to get a little frustrating.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> I've not seen/talked to him since Tuesday I think it was.



Jus got off the phone wit em'. He's been boating this whole week getting his jet boat running good and taking it out hav'n fun with his fellow boaters. I've seen vids on his boat out in the water. Its a ripper!

Sounds like fun...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well let me know. He has some parts off of my JMP that he forgot to install. I've been trying to get them back for a month now. It's starting to get a little frustrating.



Like the input jack...?:eek2:

What parts?

He'll be on the forum tomorrow...


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> As long as the Sylvania tubes are Sylvania. Philips bought Sylvania and the company was known as Philips ECG. They made the exact same Philips tubes for a while. Then they became geared more for military use. (I'm talking 6550 here.) Early ECG's or Sylvania's sound the best. I'm not much of a fan of 6550's, but if I was running them, the Sylvania's would be the way to go.
> 
> And he is right about them lasting longer. How much are the tubes?



I've been researching them a bit. Looks like some Tung Sols were rebranded sylvania, some GEs maybe? I've got a "tube guy" checking for me, but probably $200 nos matched pair. Same that I would expect for GE or original Tung Sols, maybe less. The key is going to be for this guy to find them, but he's been into tubes for awhile so we'll see. It just seems to make sense from a longevity vs. price issue, so I may as well do the right thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's fine, but remember, he is surely taking a cut. Yeah Tung-Sol's are the original, but later Sylvania got the military contract and became the big dog. Tung-Sol went out of business and Sylvania sold more tubes than ever. 6L6GC, 6V6, 6CA7 and 6550 were their big sellers. $200 is probably going to get you a matched pair of used Old Stock. As long as they test strong, that's fine.


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that's fine, but remember, he is surely taking a cut. Yeah Tung-Sol's are the original, but later Sylvania got the military contract and became the big dog. Tung-Sol went out of business and Sylvania sold more tubes than ever. 6L6GC, 6V6, 6CA7 and 6550 were their big sellers. $200 is probably going to get you a matched pair of used Old Stock. As long as they test strong, that's fine.



It's fine if he takes a cut. If he's doing the work, he deserves to. He is a friend of the tech and used to deal tubes. He only does it for friends on the side and himself now, but George told me to drop his name. He doesn't think he has any in his collection, but may know the right people to ask. If not, no big deal. I'll find something else, but nos is the way I want to go.

Marty, what would you recommend as a second choice if I can't get the Sylvanias? Any bad nos to avoid more than others? Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The big three were Sylvania, Tung-Sol and GE. Sylvania and GE were the only two companies that made USA 6CA7's. I wish more of them would have been made. I'm weaning myself of of NOS 6CA7's and using other tubes. As the tubes run out (and they will) the prices will spike and I am not going to be paying $400 for a pair.

Yeah any of the three brands I mentioned made great 6550 tubes. Current production is sort of a crap shoot. There are Russian 6550's and there are Chinese 6550's. Both are relabled and sold under various brands, especially the Chinese brands. Ruby and Groove Tubes are the two biggest relabelers.


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> The big three were Sylvania, Tung-Sol and GE. Sylvania and GE were the only two companies that made USA 6CA7's.



If you don't mind me asking, I have a couple of questions you may be able to answer:
1) 6CA7s can't be swapped for 6550s without modifications to the amp can they? I've read that 6CA7s are almost identical to 6550s, but don't know the differences.

2) The Tung-Sol 6550s have the coke bottle design and GE has the straight, tubular design and I believe the true Sylvanias also have this straight design. I saw some Sylvania 6550s up on ebay right now that are coke bottle-shaped...these are just Tung-Sols rebranded as Sylvania, right? Do you know if GE manufactured straight, tubular-shaped tubes for Sylvania as well? With all of the rebranding, how do you tell if a tube is Sylvania manufacture and not a rebrand?

Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The glass on a 6CA7 is flared at the base and the glass envelope is wide. This is similar to a 6L6. They are called "Fat Boys." A 6CA7 has sometimes been called a poor man's 6550. Although they are similar in design, the 6CA7 is a replacement for an EL34 and not a 6L6GC. You can't swap a 6CA7 for a 6550 or vice versa. Also, the 6CA7 sounds more like a guitar tube than a 6550. 6550's were never designed as an audio tube. They were adapted to it.

The big USA tube manufactures had codes acid etched or inked on the tube. GE will have 188 as a GE code number stamped on the tube. There is also a series of dots with "USA."

Sylvania went from numbers in a box, to black etched numbers at the top or top side of the tube. For 6CA7's, it will read, "6CA7/EL34/USA." (In three lines.)


----------



## seeker of rock

Thanks Marty. Do you know anything about the branding? On ebay, they have 2 Sylvania labeled tubes in the coke bottle shape (like a Tung-Sol). From what I have read the Sylvanias were straight and tubular glass, like the GEs. The tech said specifically to get straight, tubular Sylvanias. 

Haven't heard back from the tube guy yet, but I'm going to give til the end of week before I contact him again and see if he has anything.


----------



## seeker of rock

Here are the "Sylvania" tubes on ebay I was talking about. These are Tung-Sols rebranded Sylvania, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

Seeker, those look like Tung-Sols. AFAIK, the only older tubes with the mica spacers with the tabs on them were Tung-Sol. Go over to tubeworld and check them out. Also, see if the seller can give you the EIA code. Tung-Sol's code is 322 and even if they are relabeled Tung-Sols, this number will still be printed somewhere one the base, usually with a 4-digit date code, like 322XXXX.

https://www.tubeworld.com/6550.htm


----------



## RiverRatt

seeker of rock said:


> Thanks Marty. Do you know anything about the branding? On ebay, they have 2 Sylvania labeled tubes in the coke bottle shape (like a Tung-Sol). From what I have read the Sylvanias were straight and tubular glass, like the GEs. The tech said specifically to get straight, tubular Sylvanias.
> 
> Haven't heard back from the tube guy yet, but I'm going to give til the end of week before I contact him again and see if he has anything.



I'm not a 6550 user, but Tung-Sols are considered to be the best 6550 by the audiophile crowd. Sylvania made some good power tubes, but I'd listen to the majority on this one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tung-Sol is the only company that made a grounded metal base. They are the most musical sounding tube as the guts were made more delicate and the screen was of a finer mesh pattern. These are high dollar tubes. If they test over 85 percent and are a match, they can bring $400 easy. If you can get them for less AND THEY ARE A MATCH, that would be a good price on an exotic tube.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Great thread Marty. What are the best NOS EL34's? Is there any particular brand that is more available? How rare are new in box EL34's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Great thread Marty. What are the best NOS EL34's? Is there any particular brand that is more available? How rare are new in box EL34's?



Hey Shawn. The best? The one's that cost the most. Actually, my favorite is Mullard xf2's that can be had sometime for around $200 for a matched pair. (It pays to have a 50 watt amp.) The Amperex (Holland) Brown Base tubes are sweet. I had a pair and sold them for big bucks. The average Joe can get Mullard xf3's or 4's in the $150-$200 range. Any of these tubes NIB would be over $650 for a pair (matched).

The sweet EL34 that is available new is the RFT. These are tubes made back when there was an East Germany. RFT made tubes for a lot of companies including USA companies. You can get a new set of RFT EL34's for around $120. Quads are going for around $220.

The sound of the RFT is very impressive. You will be able to tell they are in there, especially at low volume. The amp is more articulate and defined. I think that RFT's in a 2203/04 help establish a better clean. Then when cranked they get really crunchy.


----------



## seeker of rock

RiverRatt said:


> Seeker, those look like Tung-Sols. AFAIK, the only older tubes with the mica spacers with the tabs on them were Tung-Sol. Go over to tubeworld and check them out. Also, see if the seller can give you the EIA code. Tung-Sol's code is 322 and even if they are relabeled Tung-Sols, this number will still be printed somewhere one the base, usually with a 4-digit date code, like 322XXXX.
> 
> https://www.tubeworld.com/6550.htm



Thanks RR. GREAT and helpful information!


----------



## NewReligion

Today I picked up a pair of out of production Sovtek EL34WXT's. I thought they would be junk but the price was right. $6 each lol. So I installed them into V5 & V6 of a 2203X, biased it to 70% disipation. While using the head as a 50 watt model thru a 16 ohm cab I set the Head ohm selector to 8 ohms. Then Reduced it to 4 ohms and plugged in a 2nd 16 ohm 412 cab. Jesus! This sounds awesome. This with a Boss SD-1 comes closer to nailing EVH's Take Your Whisky Home than any of my other amps including Plexi 1987X.

I looked up the tube and continually get a referense to purches Electro Harmonix EL34EH as the closest direct replacement for the Sovtek EL34WXT.

I sure was pleasently surprised. Any Additional information or comments on this observation Marty?

David


----------



## MM54

My 900 had EH EL34's in it when I got it. I found out later they were biased WAY cold (like 45%) but even at that they were pretty good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

NewReligion said:


> Today I picked up a pair of out of production Sovtek EL34WXT's. I thought they would be junk but the price was right. $6 each lol. So I installed them into V5 & V6 of a 2203X, biased it to 70% disipation. While using the head as a 50 watt model thru a 16 ohm cab I set the Head ohm selector to 8 ohms. Then Reduced it to 4 ohms and plugged in a 2nd 16 ohm 412 cab. Jesus! This sounds awesome. This with a Boss SD-1 comes closer to nailing EVH's Take Your Whisky Home than any of my other amps including Plexi 1987X.
> 
> I looked up the tube and continually get a referense to purches Electro Harmonix EL34EH as the closest direct replacement for the Sovtek EL34WXT.
> 
> I sure was pleasently surprised. Any Additional information or comments on this observation Marty?
> 
> David



You know Dave, it's all about how they work for you and it sounds like you got them working just fine.

As far as info. I did a small write up in this thread and here is an excerpt.

EL34WXT/SOVTEK
The WXT is an upgraded Russian valve which replaces the EL34G & EL34G Plus. The manufactures claim a unique grid block design which improves electron flow and gives the valve higher output, which they claim is 6% higher than the competition.

The valve has a rating of 25 watts plate dissipation and is a vast improvement on its predecessors. (Meaning the EL34G.)

This is from Tube Depot:

While not as harmonically rich as the SED SVEL34 - the Sovtek EL34WXT is a great tube for darker sounding amplifiers. It features a unique grid block construction which allows it to operate at higher trans-conductance and power ratings than most other EL34's. In comparison tests with other brands - the Sovtek EL34WXT was found to have as much as 6% higher output at the same non-linear distortion level. These specifications allow for a more consistent - longer lasting vacuum tube.

They still make it and have for quite some time. I hope this helps.


----------



## NewReligion

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know Dave, it's all about how they work for you and it sounds like you got them working just fine.
> 
> As far as info. I did a small write up in this thread and here is an excerpt.
> 
> EL34WXT/SOVTEK
> The WXT is an upgraded Russian valve which replaces the EL34G & EL34G Plus. The manufactures claim a unique grid block design which improves electron flow and gives the valve higher output, which they claim is 6% higher than the competition.
> 
> The valve has a rating of 25 watts plate dissipation and is a vast improvement on its predecessors. (Meaning the EL34G.)
> 
> This is from Tube Depot:
> 
> While not as harmonically rich as the SED SVEL34 - the Sovtek EL34WXT is a great tube for darker sounding amplifiers. It features a unique grid block construction which allows it to operate at higher trans-conductance and power ratings than most other EL34's. In comparison tests with other brands - the Sovtek EL34WXT was found to have as much as 6% higher output at the same non-linear distortion level. These specifications allow for a more consistent - longer lasting vacuum tube.
> 
> *They still make it and have for quite some time. I hope this helps*.



I understood that it was discontinued. Is it labeled under a new Name?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sovtek EL34WXT


----------



## NewReligion

It say's that it is *Out of Production*. Buy the Eletro Harmonix EL34. Is the Electro Harmonix EL34EH the same tube?

Thanks 

David


----------



## boardwlk17

new to this board been playing marshalls forever... whats up i learned alot about tubes thanks everyone.. i have some mullard el-34's i bought there made in Russia says 07 01 under the country on the tube comes in a blue box box label says lp:41, GM:7400 pass
70011308F00000B5 all 6 say the same thing there matched
Are these good Mullards?
and what should i be looking for as far as numbers,country,ect
these are going in my early 80's jcm800 
thanks
ps i want a 2553 jubilee i played one and it sounded sweet


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, I was hoping you wouldn't see that.

Sorry Dave, I was responding to you and three other people. I should have seen that.

Well in regard to the EH? It may be very close. They actually make EH and Sovtek valves in the same building. In fact, I have read that on one big aisle it is Sovtek on one side and EH on the other. I've also heard that they have shared parts to keep the lines going. Anyway, the EH may be close, but it is not going to be exact.

I will say that when I wrote my article on the WXT, it was still in production.


----------



## NewReligion

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn, I was hoping you wouldn't see that.
> 
> Sorry Dave, I was responding to you and three other people. I should have seen that.
> 
> Well in regard to the EH? It may be very close. They actually make EH and Sovtek valves in the same building. In fact, I have read that one one big aisle it is Sovtek on one side and EH on the other. I've also heard that they have shared parts to keep the lines going. Anyway, the EH may be close, but it is not going to be exact.
> 
> I will say that when I wrote my article on the WXT, it was still in production.



Thank you for the additional information concerning Sovtek/EH. Should be close enough. 

Think I need to spend more time in the tube threads. People have little idea of how much all tubes affect tone and response.

Thanks again.

David


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dave you are welcome here or the Preamp Tube thread anytime.


----------



## Procter2812

Ooooo these Harma EL34's do sound good


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well tell us more. Did they bias smoothly. How's the bottom end? Smooth and tight? Midrange, what about it? Full, open, creamy, distinct? Highs? Airy, smooth or heavy? Feel free to use your own adjectives.

What did they cost? I forgot, were these frozen tubes?


----------



## thetragichero

i put some cp svetlanas (new sensor) in the freezer this morning
i'm hoping by the time i get home tonight they'll sound nice and crisp
hopefully not icepick-y, though :cool2:


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well tell us more. Did they bias smoothly. How's the bottom end? Smooth and tight? Midrange, what about it? Full, open, creamy, distinct? Highs? Airy, smooth or heavy? Feel free to use your own adjectives.
> 
> What did they cost? I forgot, were these frozen tubes?



They were about £70 for a quad.

They just sound really smooth when driven, creamy and nice smooth mid range.

They arent the Cryo bull take my money please crap. Just plain old EL34's


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good, I'm glad you didn't fall for that manure. The latest gimmick is on the Shuguang Treasure EL34's. They have an internal black band the "rounds up stray electrons." 

Some of the old power tubes had this in the 40's and 50's. The manufacturers decided it wasn't really doing anything "audible" to the tube and they dropped it. In the old days they tried all sorts of experiments. A lot of the BS was put in the trash.

If freezing tubes had a positive benefit, all tubes would be frozen. This is like the guy who buys a $1500 power cord for his amp. (The amp cost $700.)

If a black band helped electron flow, all tubes would have black bands.

There's a difference between test results and audible differences. A HiFi amp can have .01 THD and another 1.0 THD and our ears can't tell the difference.


----------



## TwinACStacks

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good, I'm glad you didn't fall for that manure. The latest gimmick is on the Shuguang Treasure EL34's. They have an internal black band the "rounds up stray electrons."
> 
> Some of the old power tubes had this in the 40's and 50's. The manufacturers decided it wasn't really doing anything "audible" to the tube and they dropped it. In the old days they tried all sorts of experiments. A lot of the BS was put in the trash.
> 
> If freezing tubes had a positive benefit, all tubes would be frozen. This is like the guy who buys a $1500 power cord for his amp. (The amp cost $700.)
> 
> If a black band helped electron flow, all tubes would have black bands.
> 
> There's a difference between test results and audible differences. A HiFi amp can have .01 THD and another 1.0 THD and our ears can't tell the difference.



That's why I just PAINTED black bands on mine, right after I took them out of the Deep Freezer in the Basement.

Problem is now the amp smells like Tuna Casserole...

:cool2::cool2: TWIN


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good, I'm glad you didn't fall for that manure. The latest gimmick is on the Shuguang Treasure EL34's. They have an internal black band the "rounds up stray electrons."
> 
> Some of the old power tubes had this in the 40's and 50's. The manufacturers decided it wasn't really doing anything "audible" to the tube and they dropped it. In the old days they tried all sorts of experiments. A lot of the BS was put in the trash.
> 
> If freezing tubes had a positive benefit, all tubes would be frozen. This is like the guy who buys a $1500 power cord for his amp. (The amp cost $700.)
> 
> If a black band helped electron flow, all tubes would have black bands.
> 
> There's a difference between test results and audible differences. A HiFi amp can have .01 THD and another 1.0 THD and our ears can't tell the difference.



I have a couple 6V6's from '59/'60 that have a black hazy coating inside of the glass. Maybe they tried to round up spare electrons, too (because it really matters if they hit the glass or the stuff on the glass)


----------



## Micky

My 6V6GT's are like that new...


----------



## TwinACStacks

MM54 said:


> I have a couple 6V6's from '59/'60 that have a black hazy coating inside of the glass. Maybe they tried to round up spare electrons, too (because it really matters if they hit the glass or the stuff on the glass)



Oh No, the stuff on the glass slows the little bastards WAY down...

184,968.99982345 Miles per second.

 TWIN


----------



## RiverRatt

The black stuff on the glass also obscures construction techniques. I think they quit doing it when some rocket scientist figured out that you could just break the glass and copy to your heart's content. I've got an old Tung-Sol 6V6 that is clear, all my other old ones are either a smoky gray color or black.

Here's a handful of stuff I picked up today. Got a couple of good rectifiers, a couple of low powered output pentodes, and a couple of others that are absolutely bizarre. 






From top left (all left to right): 

RCA JAN CRC-2050: A rectifier that can handle 650 volts and 2 amps of current. Produces powerful DC pulses. Usefulness = 0. Can be used to produce a steady DC current if two 2050's are used together.

RCA 5V4 full wave rectifier: Similar in application to the 5AR4 with more voltage drop.

Silvertone 6F6G and Philco 6F6G: Output pentode. 250v max. Good radio output tube. Might be fun to design a low-powered SE guitar amp with this one.

Sparton 5Y3G: Full wave rectifier as used in low voltage Fenders like the Champ. Getting harder to find old USA 5Y3's.

RCA 6H6GT: dual diode tube. RCA made this tube to fit into Philco radios that wouldn't accept the metal RCA 6H6 design which had a wider base than the Philco shields. Might make an interesting preamp tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TwinACStacks said:


> That's why I just PAINTED black bands on mine, right after I took them out of the Deep Freezer in the Basement.
> 
> Problem is now the amp smells like Tuna Casserole...
> 
> :cool2::cool2: TWIN



Yeah and your cat is walking with a limp again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I have a couple 6V6's from '59/'60 that have a black hazy coating inside of the glass. Maybe they tried to round up spare electrons, too (because it really matters if they hit the glass or the stuff on the glass)



Yeah the inside is lined with clay. The electrons hit it then get stuck. A big electron comes by and puts the little one's into a sack. Then when he gets back over to the anode, he dumps the bag. That's the truth. Look in your tube with a magnifying glass. You'll see a big hairy electron. Sometimes he rides a donkey.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found out that the 5V4 will sub for a 5AR4/GZ34 with a plate voltage drop which will "brown" the amp a little. Joe, you interested?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You'll see a big hairy electron. Sometimes he rides a donkey.



I think I caught that show in Tijuana once.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I found out that the 5V4 will sub for a 5AR4/GZ34 with a plate voltage drop which will "brown" the amp a little. Joe, you interested?



Let me read up on it. Do you know what the tubes condition is?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Let me read up on it. Do you know what the tubes condition is?



Nope. I just picked it up today at an antique mall between here and Jackson, TN. I had to drive up to Jackson and pick up a "donor" amp that a friend of mine at PM Music saved from the junk pile for me. Now I've got to figure out how to fit a tube amp into a Fender Frontman 15R cabinet and chassis. Not much room there.

The guy I bought it from is an antique radio collector and has a lot of older tubes. He has a box of tubes that are 3 for $5 and it's mostly old 4-pin rectifiers and odd big bottle pentodes. AFAIK they are all pulls from old radios/amplifiers. I haven't gotten a bad one yet. I've gotten a really nice old RCA 5R4 from him recently. I'm saving it as a backup for my 5E3x2 build. I originally had a 5U4GB in the amp, but the 5R4 seems to give it more sag and a little more grunge. I've got a bunch of stuff I need to send to Marty for testing. I could include it and let him give it a clean bill of health before you Monza it. I'm not trying to sell it, I just thought you might want to give it a spin and see if the extra sag is good or not.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. I just picked it up today at an antique mall between here and Jackson, TN. I had to drive up to Jackson and pick up a "donor" amp that a friend of mine at PM Music saved from the junk pile for me. Now I've got to figure out how to fit a tube amp into a Fender Frontman 15R cabinet and chassis. Not much room there.
> 
> The guy I bought it from is an antique radio collector and has a lot of older tubes. He has a box of tubes that are 3 for $5 and it's mostly old 4-pin rectifiers and odd big bottle pentodes. AFAIK they are all pulls from old radios/amplifiers. I haven't gotten a bad one yet. I've gotten a really nice old RCA 5R4 from him recently. I'm saving it as a backup for my 5E3x2 build. I originally had a 5U4GB in the amp, but the 5R4 seems to give it more sag and a little more grunge. I've got a bunch of stuff I need to send to Marty for testing. I could include it and let him give it a clean bill of health before you Monza it. I'm not trying to sell it, I just thought you might want to give it a spin and see if the extra sag is good or not.



Yes Alan. Send it to Marty and get that CBOH and I would definitely like to try it. It looks like it can be used in mine like you stated. It would be cool to have a bit more sag at lower gain settings too. I'm liking the idea for sure. Hope its a good one.

And thanx for thinking of me/Monza!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds like a plan. I'll bet the 5R4 would be a close sub, too. It's basically a lower voltage version of the 5AR4. Maybe this weekend I can get some bubble wrap and get everything boxed up. If the 5V4 works for you, we might work out one of our win/win trades. Plus, that big bottle rectifier looks damned cool on an amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, is it time for a "Rectifier Tubes: Who, What, When, Where" thread???


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sounds like a plan. I'll bet the 5R4 would be a close sub, too. It's basically a lower voltage version of the 5AR4. Maybe this weekend I can get some bubble wrap and get everything boxed up. If the 5V4 works for you, we might work out one of our win/win trades. Plus, that big bottle rectifier looks damned cool on an amp.




You know how we do hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, is it time for a "Rectifier Tubes: Who, What, When, Where" thread???



*NO!*


----------



## RiverRatt

The third-party is heard from!

Ok then, rectifier tube are a subset of the power tube thread. Easiest thing in the world. No problem. Just breathe normally, Otto.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *NO!*


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The third-party is heard from!
> 
> Ok then, rectifier tube are a subset of the power tube thread. Easiest thing in the world. No problem. Just breathe normally, Otto.



Did you feel that come through the screen too?!


----------



## RiverRatt

Mountain, have electric run me a stinger.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry. I revert to Coen Brothers quotes in times of distress.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry. I revert to Coen Brothers quotes in times of distress.



I was trying to figure that one out...


----------



## MartyStrat54

So is this a spam the Power Tube thread?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder what happened to Lisa? Maybe she met someone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It was fun to have a female that was into Marshall's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah...you guys still here? Or am I banging my head up against a nail in the door?


----------



## thrawn86

Still here.


----------



## solarburn

A win/win!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good, I was invited over for a chat here and now Joe and Alan are not around anymore.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I'm sorry Joe, I didn't know you were on the toilet.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

I feel 10lb's lighter!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The "BROWN SOUND" out of the MONZA. Sounds delicious.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm here. About 3 sheets to the wind, but I'm here.


----------



## thrawn86

Hey Marty, not to change the oh so serious subject, but do you recall these days in Phoenix?




We still get them in Redding. Lovely lovely. Hotter than all my tubes after a long day of playing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And 10 pounds of "BROWN" out of JOE.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Hey Marty, not to change the oh so serious subject, but do you recall these days in Phoenix?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We still get them in Redding. Lovely lovely. Hotter than all my tubes after a long day of playing.



Oh shit dats hot!!!!!:Ohno:


----------



## RiverRatt

I hope everybody is busy listening to "soul shine" like I am.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well like I said, I was up on a roof putting in high voltage to a new body shop the hottest day on record for Phoenix. It was 123. The day before was 118. They shut Sky Harbor Int'l Airport down because the humidity was between 4 and 6 percent. So dry an ant couldn't spit and an airplane couldn't fly.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The "BROWN SOUND" out of the MONZA. Sounds delicious.



Yeah I'm thinking "COOL"! I'm salivating over the prospect...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well like I said, I was up on a roof putting in high voltage to a new body shop the hottest day on record for Phoenix. It was 123. The day before was 118. They shut Sky Harbor Int'l Airport down because the humidity was between 4 and 6 percent. So dry an ant couldn't spit and an airplane couldn't fly.



Thats jus F'd up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

What? That an ant couldn't spit?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, are you still on the pain medication and alcohol?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, just alcohol


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you know I got $100 off of the price of my Strat. It didn't have S-1 switching and the wrong tremolo arm, so I got $100 taken off. $650 is a real sweet price on that hunk of wood. I also have two Strat Tremolo arms if anyone needs one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think I need to start drinking more. On New Year's I bought a lot of stuff. I still have a huge $60 bottle of Crown that I haven't even cracked the label on.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'm going to sell the Harmony 535 and get a USA strat special. My friend the Fender dealer has a HSS special in black that is bad ass - rosewood fingerboard and black pickguard and body.


----------



## thrawn86

Nice. NOS Crown can be delectable.

Speaking of which, a Vodka Tonic is calling my name......brb


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, once more around the block and then I'm gone. Goodnight gentlemen.


----------



## RiverRatt

Have a good one! 

I've got to stop drinking whiskey. I slept through a solid hour of the alarm clock going off this morning. Thank God I can't fire myself!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think I need to start drinking more. On New Year's I bought a lot of stuff. I still have a huge $60 bottle of Crown that I haven't even cracked the label on.



Oooh! Thats what I drank...whiskey burn tremor I just had. Whiskey and coke(cain)got the best of me. Been 16yrs since I've had anything. I got no self control when it comes to drink'n and carrying on.


----------



## solarburn

Alright Marty have a good'n then!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Have a good one!
> 
> I've got to stop drinking whiskey. I slept through a solid hour of the alarm clock going off this morning. Thank God I can't fire myself!



I'd like to see that. You're fired! No you shuddup or you're fired! Back and forth with yourself...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oooh! Thats what I drank...whiskey burn tremor I just had. Whiskey and coke(cain)got the best of me. Been 16yrs since I've had anything. I got no self control when it comes to drink'n and carrying on.



Congrats. I can't last 16 minutes 

I had a friend I had to jettison. If I ever went over to his house to jam it was like "let's do a line", and then some whiskey, and then "let's do another line".

I can't deal with that shit anymore.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Congrats. I can't last 16 minutes
> 
> I had a friend I had to jettison. If I ever went over to his house to jam it was like "let's do a line", and then some whiskey, and then "let's do another line".
> 
> I can't deal with that shit anymore.



Glad I don't have to any more either.


----------



## RiverRatt

I pretty much just drink to go to sleep. I like a little herb every now and then, but I try to spread it out. Wish I lived in one of those states where it's on the referendum.


----------



## solarburn

Well i'm keeping my fingers x'd on the 5V4. If its good that could be even more of a sexy & sultry blues machine...it already does well hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I pretty much just drink to go to sleep. I like a little herb every now and then, but I try to spread it out. Wish I lived in one of those states where it's on the referendum.



Did you fall asleep?


----------



## RiverRatt

Great! I'm taking Marty's cue and leaving while I still have a little time to get some sleep in. I've got to go out with the wife tomorrow and buy a refrigerator. Fun, fun, fun. Hopefully I can get this stuff boxed up to be tested tomorrow. I found out that the RCA preamp tube in the Harmony 535 are just about spent. I ended up replacing 3 out of 5 preamp tubes before I got rid of the noise. The good news is, two of them were Tung-Sol's.

Have you ever had a preamp tube get so hot that it literally blistered your fingers when you touched it? That Harmony amp must be brutal on pre's. Hopefully I'll have a video demo of it with the channels bridged this weekend. I already made one video but I'm going to have to trash it. I thought I had a decent set of preamp tubes in it, but I got worried about the horrible performace of the reverb and tremolo and discovered I had accidentally put 12AT7's in it by mistake. It sounds much better now.

Here's what I did last night. The next one will feature all 12AX7's and a little outboard overdrive courtesy of a certain OCD pedal.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guwm0SGXhPA]YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 Amp Demo.mp4‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Alright my friends. I'm going to hit it too. I'll see ya on the boards tomorry!

After I check the vid out hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I'm still here.

Go check out the video. I'll hang around.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Great! I'm taking Marty's cue and leaving while I still have a little time to get some sleep in. I've got to go out with the wife tomorrow and buy a refrigerator. Fun, fun, fun. Hopefully I can get this stuff boxed up to be tested tomorrow. I found out that the RCA preamp tube in the Harmony 535 are just about spent. I ended up replacing 3 out of 5 preamp tubes before I got rid of the noise. The good news is, two of them were Tung-Sol's.
> 
> Have you ever had a preamp tube get so hot that it literally blistered your fingers when you touched it? That Harmony amp must be brutal on pre's. Hopefully I'll have a video demo of it with the channels bridged this weekend. I already made one video but I'm going to have to trash it. I thought I had a decent set of preamp tubes in it, but I got worried about the horrible performace of the reverb and tremolo and discovered I had accidentally put 12AT7's in it by mistake. It sounds much better now.
> 
> Here's what I did last night. The next one will feature all 12AX7's and a little outboard overdrive courtesy of a certain OCD pedal.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 Amp Demo.mp4‬&lrm;



I heard a guy using the OCD on another Z amp(not mine)and it sounded really good. I felt that lil' pang of moving someth'n too fast before you discover its goodness hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Hey that sounds good! Still listening...

Wait till you get some AX7's in it. That should brown it up some...

I never get to play with tremelo. I like it. It sounds good with certain stuff. How high was the volume in the vid?

Thanx for the ACDC!


----------



## RiverRatt

You know it always sounds better when someone else is playing your shit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wait until you hear the new one. This thing is a beast, especially after I found out you can jumper the channels. I just hope I'm not about to fry something - it sounds like it sometimes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Where the hell did Vice Admiral Thrawn go? One vodka martini and he's gone for the night? 

I'm outta here. I'll see y'all later today.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Wait until you hear the new one. This thing is a beast, especially after I found out you can jumper the channels. I just hope I'm not about to fry something - it sounds like it sometimes.



Have a good one. Can't wait to hear the next vid then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, now I'm trying to make 3:30 AM.


----------



## thrawn86

Still here. Las Palmas Norte posted a new thread on Comedians so I was distracted by my own Brian Regan references.

The V/T is doing the trick. No ice tonight though. Crap. At least I chill my Vodka. Been working nights on a Courthouse.

Man, your amp sounds nice. The AT7's give it a nice clean sound.....I know it will growl with the AX7's, but that's a cool reference to have. Perfect blues tone.

BTW. thanx for recognizing the Thrawn character.......


----------



## MartyStrat54

You are welcome over here any time almighty THRAWN. Now go to bed so I can.


----------



## solarburn

Wait! Whats the difference between a 5V4A and a 5V4G?


----------



## thrawn86

lol I'm too tired to go to bed, and I have to get up and pack a truck for camping in the morning.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wait! Whats the difference between a 5V4A and a 5V4G?



There is no 5V4A. There is a GA. A 5V4GA will sub for a 5V4G.

That is, according to my data.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I hope everybody is busy listening to "soul shine" like I am.



I the Allman Bros. Ast the MN State Fair a few years ago. Had to leave early ' cause the ex-wife was throwing a hissy-fit. But... Holy crap what an awesome bunch of musician's!


----------



## thetragichero

since this is the rectifier tube thread now... what would ya'll suggest for a 5Y3 tube?
over the next couple months i'm thinking of putting a ceriatone tweed deluxe into the 112 ss combo i'm gonna gut, so any advice would be much appreciated


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is no 5V4A. There is a GA. A 5V4GA will sub for a 5V4G.
> 
> That is, according to my data.



My bad. You're right! So what is the diff? Their appearance is definitely different as far as shape/internals go. Pin out is the same. I read too they were interchangeable. Was jus curious...

Oh and this is just a lil' side track. I googled alot of info already to keep it short. I'll let you guyz know how it sounds in the Monza once I try it. Should be interesting and hopefully it won't be too loose in the ass end.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> since this is the rectifier tube thread now... what would ya'll suggest for a 5Y3 tube?
> over the next couple months i'm thinking of putting a ceriatone tweed deluxe into the 112 ss combo i'm gonna gut, so any advice would be much appreciated



Anything old, nothing Russian. I prefer the old RCA "coke bottle" tubes just because they look nice. G.E. or Sylvania made one that's straight sided. 

The reason I say stay away from Russian 5Y3's is that this is one case where they screwed up by making something work better. The Russian tube, although spec'd the same, doesn't have the voltage drop that the older USA tubes have. If you put one in an old Fender circuit, watch your voltages. They could be running quite a bit higher than they should.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tube rectifiers don't boost the HT as much as SS. A SS rectifier will increase the HT by a factor of 1.4. Most tube rectifiers boost the HT by a factor of 1.1 or 1.2.

330V times 1.4 equal 464V.
330V times 1.2 equal 396V.
330V times 1.1 equal 363V.

They make SS converters that pop in the tube socket. I believe I had a conversation with Alan about this before. They point out that the SS rectifier will boost the HT by a considerable margin. If the transformer was specifically picked for use with a tube rectifier, then a SS "conversion" would be too hot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> since this is the rectifier tube thread now... what would ya'll suggest for a 5Y3 tube?



I will keep me eyes open for one. Maybe Alan, Matt or one of the regulars can score you a good USA 5Y3. Remember, I will test it for free. You just pay for shipping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> My bad. You're right! So what is the diff? Their appearance is definitely different as far as shape/internals go. Pin out is the same. I read too they were interchangeable. Was jus curious...



5V4G and 5V4GA-This is a lot like a 6CA7 and an EL34. The glass is different the construction is different, yet the pin out is the same and they are a direct sub for each other. The same hold true here. It's all about the pin out and the electrical properties of the tube.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> 5V4G and 5V4GA-This is a lot like a 6CA7 and an EL34. The glass is different the construction is different, yet the pin out is the same and they are a direct sub for each other. The same hold true here. It's all about the pin out and the electrical properties of the tube.



Gotcha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is what's nice about tube rectifiers. You can get four or five and try them all and pick the one that sounds the best to you. You can't do that with SS. If you get a 1.1 tube rectifier and you were using a 1.2, there will be a noticeable difference it the "sound." This would be like using a variac, without it affecting the 6.3V to the heaters. It would be the "BROWN SOUND."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to EBAY looking a 5Y3 rectifiers and there is a glut of them. Really good ones are $5 to $20 each. So whenever you want one, give EBAY a shot. 

It's amazing how there can be such a surplus of 50 year old tubes. This isn't true with 12AX7's.


----------



## thetragichero

this is a project i'm putting off for a few months... taking the lady on vacation for a week and a half
hopefully that'll warm her up to thought of some new gear ;-)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sometimes you have to make concessions...man. With a wifey, it's a way of life.

And it could be a good thing. No one tells me to stop buying and then I end up spending a lot of money. Of course there is no one to bitch at me for doing it.


----------



## MM54

I have a 5Y3, I want to say it's an RCA but I'm not sure, maybe GE. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure it's American. Next time I get the chance to take a quick look I'll let you know for sure. I know it tests over 100% (for some reason I remember it being one of the first tubes I tested).


----------



## MartyStrat54

MATT-Every rectifier tube I ever bought tested at least 90 percent. I don't know why it is, except the manufactures designed them to last a long time. I was digging around and found JOE that GZ34 Mullard. It tested real good and will last JOE a long time.

What did you ever do about the long distance seller of the organ cabinet?


----------



## MM54

It's an RCA (white print) 5Y3GT (So the smaller size, like a 6V6. Not a GC (EL34-size) or G (big coke bottle)). I have numbers written on a little bit of tape stuck to the foam beside it that says "5Y3 108%/109%"

I haven't called the guy since I saw he had it re-listed for more than before, in a few days I may call and point out that it isn't worth near what he's asking, and make an offer of like $50 on it. It all depends on how the cash flow goes the next few days.

I wonder if he has the cable for it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you could get it for $50, that would be the best scenario. Yeah if it hasn't sold, then you have a position to chop the price down. I'm curious if it has a bi-amp power amplifier. Those are cool if you have two of them. You can make a sweet HiFi out of them. Add a SS subwoofer and it is ready for some vinyl.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got into some tidying up with the 5E3x2 amp. I fixed a couple of ground problems and it sounds pretty nice. I played around with the rectifier tubes. I got a reading of around 217v on pin 3 with the 5R4. I tried the 5Y3G and it dropped the voltage to 179v. I think I like this better. The amp is a little more quiet and the tone is smoother, too. I think I may leave it like this for awhile. 

Joe, I popped the 5V4G in and it works fine. I didn't leave it in long as I had already put the amp back together and didn't know what the voltages were doing. I expect it to be a good bit higher than the 5R4. You still want Marty to test it, or do you want me to send it on out?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got into some tidying up with the 5E3x2 amp. I fixed a couple of ground problems and it sounds pretty nice. I played around with the rectifier tubes. I got a reading of around 217v on pin 3 with the 5R4. I tried the 5Y3G and it dropped the voltage to 179v. I think I like this better. The amp is a little more quiet and the tone is smoother, too. I think I may leave it like this for awhile.
> 
> Joe, I popped the 5V4G in and it works fine. I didn't leave it in long as I had already put the amp back together and didn't know what the voltages were doing. I expect it to be a good bit higher than the 5R4. You still want Marty to test it, or do you want me to send it on out?



I'm in no hurry(I am excited to try it)so go ahead and send it to Marty so I can get and idea of where its at. Just to be safe...

Then I can paypal him the shipping when he says he's done...of course if it checks out good hehe. Lets keep our fingers x'd its in good condition. I really want to try it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sure. It's just taking me forever to get everything together and sent to him. I just had a war with one of my business partners via email. He'll probably send his goon brother around to kick my ass tomorrow - it was that bad. I'm really down on the whole thing now. You ever had this one asshole in your way? Like, everything would be shits and giggles if this fucker would step in front of a bus? If he showed up tomorrow, I would stomp his arrogant ass into the pile of shit he is. Sorry. Welcome to my night.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sure. It's just taking me forever to get everything together and sent to him. I just had a war with one of my business partners via email. He'll probably send his goon brother around to kick my ass tomorrow - it was that bad. I'm really down on the whole thing now. You ever had this one asshole in your way? Like, everything would be shits and giggles if this fucker would step in front of a bus? If he showed up tomorrow, I would stomp his arrogant ass into the pile of shit he is. Sorry. Welcome to my night.



Man...hope he doesn't get any more stupid with you. Be safe! Sounds like the guy gets to be one of your challenges in life. I know...ain't that grand.

Take care and I hope it gets better for you. If I lived close to you we get together and rip some blues over this...get it out of your system! Thats what them blues is good fer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll do the singing. I just make the words up as I go. I'm pretty good at it. This is from my many years of singing the blues and living them too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So what the hell did this guy do? And he's your business partner? Holy moly. I hope you get it worked out. With the economy the way it is, I don't think you would want to go job hunting.

The guy must have teed you off good. You got me wanting to meet him.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So what the hell did this guy do? And he's your business partner? Holy moly. I hope you get it worked out. With the economy the way it is, I don't think you would want to go job hunting.
> 
> The guy must have teed you off good. You got me wanting to meet him.



Yeah we could talk to him in stereo...if you know what I mean.

Snap, crackle and POP!LOL


Jus jok'n...or am I...?:Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

I wonder if we any Rice Krispies...I'm hungry now...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think you and I could take care of most guys. After all, we be big MO FO's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mean guys don't eat Rice Krispies.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mean guys don't eat Rice Krispies.



With lots a sugar!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think you and I could take care of most guys. After all, we be big MO FO's.



This guys get'n in our roll'n tube fun by bothering Alan. Bad mistake...


:cool2:


----------



## RiverRatt

He's basically a "silent" partner who doesn't know the meaning of the word. He lives about 8 hours from here, visits the business once a month for about an hour, and wants to dictate what we are doing. He sent out a huge email last night listing all his "sacrifices" and how he's not getting any return on his investment and how dissatisfied he is, he thought this was an equal partnership, blah, blah, blah. I just absolutely came unglued on him. Sacrifices, my ass.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I think we've reached a truce. Now, back to these tube thingies.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What did you do? Hold his hand and get him a piece of cake? Joe and I were plotting to knock the snot out of this guy. I was thinking of getting his email from you and spamming him.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mean guys don't eat Rice Krispies.


 No, you eat Rice Krispie Treats...


----------



## solarburn

Micky said:


> No, you eat Rice Krispie Treats...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> What did you do? Hold his hand and get him a piece of cake? Joe and I were plotting to knock the snot out of this guy. I was thinking of getting his email from you and spamming him.



God no. I don't want to get that started. I don't want Sucker of Cock and whatever the other one's name was climbing down off Brokeback Mountain and stirring up shit again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, those guys really took control of this place for a day didn't they?


----------



## solarburn

Hahahaha! Sorry I missed all that.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, be glad you missed it. I wish I had.


----------



## MM54

I must say, I never noticed how much heat power tubes give off when you're playing until the past couple days that I've had my chassis out of its box (checked and tweaked bias now that the 6CA7EH's have settled in and haven't been bothered to put it back). It's scorching over there


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I popped those old Russian 5881's into the Harmony last night just dicking around. Check out the tone - I thought it was pretty Soundgarden-ish.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIlSdpslbR0]YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 amp demo - Superunknown‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## Micky

RiverRatt said:


> No, be glad you missed it. I wish I had.


It wasn't too bad as long as you weren't in the middle of it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I must say, I never noticed how much heat power tubes give off when you're playing until the past couple days that I've had my chassis out of its box (checked and tweaked bias now that the 6CA7EH's have settled in and haven't been bothered to put it back). It's scorching over there



When I was in the Air Force and had my Peavey MACE 212 Combo, it had six, 6L6GC Sylvanina Fat Boys in it. During the winter time, it put off so much heat that my thermostat on the room heater wouldn't kick in. I'd say it was putting off at least 500 watts of heat. That's just under the "low" position on most space heaters.

ALSO-Did you get the info you needed on the speaker box?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> It wasn't too bad as long as you weren't in the middle of it.



That was a mess. I still don't know who was telling the truth. I'm just glad they are gone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, educate me about Strats. My friend the Fender dealer is not able to deal anymore - the store owner died and he went from running the place to working for the owner's wife and 20-year-old dreadlock-wearing phreak.

I like a rosewood board, medium to jumbo frets, vintage tremolo block, and a substantial neck - maybe a C shape or a soft V. I'm just not up on what's out there and what to look for (or what to look out for). I hate to take a wad of cash out shopping because I always end up with something I didn't go out looking for. 

Used is good. It doesn't have to be new and it doesn't have to be a beauty queen. I just want something that's a real player.

PM if you don't want to get into it here.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I popped those old Russian 5881's into the Harmony last night just dicking around. Check out the tone - I thought it was pretty Soundgarden-ish.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 amp demo - Superunknown‬&lrm;




There you go. That sounds good!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> When I was in the Air Force and had my Peavey MACE 212 Combo, it had six, 6L6GC Sylvanina Fat Boys in it. During the winter time, it put off so much heat that my thermostat on the room heater wouldn't kick in. I'd say it was putting off at least 500 watts of heat. That's just under the "low" position on most space heaters.
> 
> ALSO-Did you get the info you needed on the speaker box?



Nice. I saw an amp for sale once that was 200W tube power section. It had 8 6L6's. That thing probably would make a good heater as well 

For the box - I think so. If and when I go to build it, I'll let you know if I hit any snags. Should be a really simple build


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, educate me about Strats. My friend the Fender dealer is not able to deal anymore - the store owner died and he went from running the place to working for the owner's wife and 20-year-old dreadlock-wearing phreak.
> 
> I like a rosewood board, medium to jumbo frets, vintage tremolo block, and a substantial neck - maybe a C shape or a soft V. I'm just not up on what's out there and what to look for (or what to look out for). I hate to take a wad of cash out shopping because I always end up with something I didn't go out looking for.
> 
> Used is good. It doesn't have to be new and it doesn't have to be a beauty queen. I just want something that's a real player.
> 
> PM if you don't want to get into it here.



You might have to go with some sort of used reissue Strat. I like the rosewood necks and the medium jumbo frets, but I can't take a "C" neck. Both of my Strats have the same type of neck. 9.5 radius "D" neck with medium jumbo frets.

The shapes or curvature of the back of the neck includes six to nine styles, at least for a Stratocaster. Wide and deep for giant hands (SRV had giant hands), check out the “boatneck”. Or a narrow V-neck such as the Eric Clapton Strat, for for others hand sizes as well. Size and contour has a lot to do with your music style, particularly if you play (farmers chords) which is where you are playing a barre chord, but using your thumb on the low E string.

The "Classic 60's" probably has the neck you like, but it comes with vintage (thin) fret wire. These can be had new for around $850 or so and used one's would be available, but they may be sparse in numbers. The Clapton Series has the V-neck. I don't mind it, it's pretty good.

The Classic 70's has a "U" neck. I think this is similar to an early Les Paul. It comes with thin fret wire as well.

American Vintage has the "V" neck, but they are so high priced I'm not going to elaborate on them. Let's just say used they are $1600.

There are many more, but I think what you should try and find it a used "Roadhouse" Strat. "C" neck with medium jumbo frets and Alder body. These new are about $800 to $850, so you can find one used for say $675.

The Roadhouse has three Texas Special pickups. It is available in white, black and brown. 

Now the "Lonestar" is the same guitar, except it has the Seymour Duncan "Pearly Gates" humbucker and two Texas Special pickups. Prices the same on this.

Now the American Deluxe I bought cost me $650. A new Cherry Sunburst with ash body is $2199. Ah yeah, I'm happy with that. So I won't talk about the AM Deluxe, because they are over two grand.

The Standard AM Strat is another one that you might look into. There are about five variations on it and these are available in good numbers used.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I went and looked at the Lonestar and Roadhouse guitars on eBay. They look like what I'm after. I could get the Lonestar - I love the black one - and maybe another pickguard & noiseless pickup set and have the best of both worlds. Dealers are selling them new for $599 and free shipping, which is on the low side of my budget.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's great. The Lonestar has more tonal capabilities. $599 is a smokin' good deal.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Late night/early morning on the forum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You live in Joe's part of the world. It's early.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

That Strat for $599? Is that an American Strat?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it is. That's a great price for a new one. A guy might find one used in nice shape for $525. Then you could upgrade the pickups with the money you saved.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I meant to say upgrade the single coil pickups. That SD Pearly Gates was what DIMEBAG used. Should be pretty hot.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

That's like one of the main Duncan pickups. They sell a ton of those. I hear they are really sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-What shop had them for $599. I mean that is cheaper than a MIM as far as I know.


----------



## RiverRatt

Guitar Center for one. Do a search on ebay and you'll find several more.


----------



## seeker of rock

seeker of rock said:


> Thanks Marty. Do you know anything about the branding? On ebay, they have 2 Sylvania labeled tubes in the coke bottle shape (like a Tung-Sol). From what I have read the Sylvanias were straight and tubular glass, like the GEs. The tech said specifically to get straight, tubular Sylvanias.
> 
> Haven't heard back from the tube guy yet, but I'm going to give til the end of week before I contact him again and see if he has anything.



The tube guy says he looked at his stash and doesn't have any Sylvania 6550s. I think I may keep the GTs that are in there until they go bad for now. I wanted to change them to get something different, but I may as well use up the old first. Thanks for the help you guys gave me, though.

I still am taking it to the tech so he can replace the radio shack fuse holder that Music Arts Enterprises (idiots) of Ft. Lauderdale installed when I had them "replace the broken fuse holder with a new marshall fuse holder". They put in some kind of white fuse holder without calling me or telling me, all along promising they knew marshalls inside and out, and worked on them all of the time. I should never have strayed from my local tech  but this place was closer and more convenient to where I was working at the time. Lesson learned.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is it a panel-mount fuse holder? Jeez, that's about a five-minute $2 fix. I used a Radio Shack fuse holder on my homebrew amp and it's fine.


----------



## seeker of rock

I don't know...here's a pic. I want the tech to check out the overall condition of the amp, the radio interference, and replace that fuse abomination. And I don't do this stuff myself.


----------



## seeker of rock

Since I was snapping shots, a shameless pic of the girl in her studio setting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That actually looks like a resettable fuse. Can you push the white area in? If not, it is just a regular fuse holder with a funky square cap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Is it a panel-mount fuse holder? Jeez, that's about a five-minute $2 fix. I used a Radio Shack fuse holder on my homebrew amp and it's fine.



That reminds me of the Twister. It had been sent to Jade on several occasions. The guy that sold it to me had it for like three or four days. I get it and I noticed that the mains fuse holder had been glued together with hot glue. (Remember, the cap wouldn't even turn to remove the fuse.) I changed out the fuse holder and it took about five minutes to do the entire job. Are you saying I can make $45 buck on a job like this?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Guitar Center for one. Do a search on ebay and you'll find several more.



You know I talked to a member who has worked in the music store business for 25 years. He lives in metro St. Louis. Their music store is pretty big for a ma and pa operation. He told me that a lot of guitar makers send GC and Musicians Friend "B-Stock," but with full warranty. You have some experience in this, what say you.


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> That actually looks like a resettable fuse. Can you push the white area in? If not, it is just a regular fuse holder with a funky square cap.



Yes



MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you saying I can make $45 buck on a job like this?



If you can market yourself and get the clientele, yes, but he was going to do it for free with the rebias for new power tubes at $40. Not sure how much now since I'm keeping the tubes until they wear out.


----------



## seeker of rock

Oh yeah, the place that did this little number was this place in Ft. Lauderdale. MUSIC ARTS ENTERPRISES

They are an authorized Marshall, Fender, etc. service center. George says the techs usually don't last very long and they end up calling him a lot of the time asking questions they don't know the answers to. He said companies like to award the title to authorized dealers of their same equipment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well to be honest, a resettable fuse is actually pretty nice. I mean you reset it when it pops. The only drawback is when you have a problem and it continually pops. This can weaken it and it may pop at a lower value.

I guess the main thing is it doesn't look stock.


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well to be honest, a resettable fuse is actually pretty nice. I mean you reset it when it pops. The only drawback is when you have a problem and it continually pops. This can weaken it and it may pop at a lower value.
> 
> I guess the main thing is it doesn't look stock.



The main thing is that they told me they had the marshall parts in stock and would repair it with those and then, without my consent, did otherwise. Plus the amp is stock and I don't want non-stock items on it. If it was a mod machine, I probably wouldn't care. 

That's not all, though. Did I tell you about the tube experience during the same repair? The "tech" had no clue what type of power tubes it took, and at the time neither did I. This is when I was first going to switch the power tubes to something NOS because I thought they were going bad, but wanted him to check them. He called me and told me I had the wrong type of tubes in the amp, that it took EL34 type and the 6550s were wrong. So I ordered some NOS Siemens EL34s, brought them to the shop, he tried to bias them up and then called and said that the EL34s were not going to work in my amp and he had to put the 6550s back in. Totally unacceptable customer service and knowledge, or lack thereof, for an authorized service center.

Thank God my original guy is still around and I was able to find his number.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if they don't know what power tubes it takes by the bias resistors and screen resistors...I don't know. I know that a good tech can look at how tubes are biased and by looking at certain key parts and they can determine right away if the amp is running the wrong tubes or has been properly modified.

Yeah, if they said they were going to put Marshall parts in it and them didn't, that would have my goat too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Guys, if you want to see a dying tube, look at this one. When I turned the amp on, there was a big flash, and before I hit the standby switch, I checked to see what was going on. This is what I found:











This is a tube that has sprung a leak and is letting oxygen into the envelope. If I had taken the amp off standby, there would have probably been a much bigger flash accompanied by the smell of a fried transformer. I'm just not having much luck with amps lately. A violet glow like this is a big warning sign. Pay attention to it. Looks like the 5R4 is going back in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Beautiful shots of the dying. Yes, that could have spelled disaster.

Something to consider ALAN. Some of these amps are old and they may not have seen AC power in a long time. Now you are using them and parts are failing. Just a thought.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm wondering if it's the power strip I'm running the amps off of. I plugged in an old solid state bass amp yesterday that was given to me along with the Ampeg deal. It went through about 3 decreasing volume levels of the same pitched hum and then died. Nothing has worked right since then. I'm going to meter the strip tomorrow and see what's going on with it before I ruin something.


----------



## RiverRatt

The dying tube was in the 5E3x2 build. I know the transformer is old - I've been noticing more hum from it lately, too. Looks like I'm about to have to buy some iron for two amps. Ouch.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I would make sure I have taken the B+ so I can match it to a new PT before it blows. I'm sure you are aware that a tube rectifier only multiplies the B+ by a factor of 1.1 and 1.2. Take that into consideration. Depending on the tube used, you should be able to get a nice PT dialed in and you might end up with better tube performance.

Are you on the old electrolytics? There are some smaller one's too. Did you change any of these out?


----------



## RiverRatt

The only thing I reused was the tubes and the PT. It has all new caps and resistors except for the screen resistors I added, and they are metal film. I figured that since the PT was used to seeing a 5U4GB, four 6V6's and 3 12AX7's, one less 12AX7 and a lower powered rectifier should be a breeze. The 5Y3 was one of the 3/$5 tubes I bought a couple of weeks ago and was untested, so it may have been gassy from the start. Anyway, I put the 5R4 back in and played for awhile last night and it was fine.


----------



## MM54

Alan, I have a bunch of 5U4's if you want one or two for backup (I don't know if rectifiers are universal like that though). I also have a 5Y3GB that tests great I'll sell ya


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Anyway, I put the 5R4 back in and played for awhile last night and it was fine.



Good deal. You know it is amazing how many different kinds of rectifier tubes were made. For about 30 years, "all" tube amps had rectifiers. One things for sure, the most popular was the 5U4. You can't sell them there are so many. I have around 50 of them. The last lot I bought was 12 for $8. Everyone tested better than new. The 5U4 is sort of like the 6L6 of American amplifiers and the GZ34 was like the EL34.

Then there is the interchangeability of these tubes. Again, I think the 5U4 is the champion.

What's amazing is that they fitted all the guts in a nine pin miniature that could handle over 400VDC. Like the EZ80, EZ81/6CA4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I hope you see this. Would you be looking for a really sweet set of 6V6's, say made by "Brimar?" PM me ASAP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Those BRIMAR 6V6's went for $92. No one had bid 3 hours before the auction was to end. It was $40 minimum bid. I was buying from the guy (Peru) and thought I would get them and save on the shipping, because I had already won multiple items. After you had declined on them, I was still interested until they jumped in the last ten minutes. They were nice, but I don't sell any 6V6's. Still a lot on the NET for sale.


----------



## MM54

I have quite a few 6V6's, I never hear much about them so I didn't think they were worth much? Or were the Brimar's just special?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, these were Brimar BVA smoke tops. They bring a lot more money. 6V6's for the most part are easy to obtain on EBAY. I sold off four pair that all tested better than 90 and I think the most I made was $24 off one pair. They are going for about $10 a tube right now for strong testing tubes. You wouldn't be able to sell a weak tube. In fact, you need to be selling at least a matched pair, it's tough to sell a single.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've still got 3 unmatched 6V6's. I don't have any way to test them other than putting them in my amp, but so far everything has worked out pretty well. Every tube has been close enough that they get along pretty well together. I've got a couple more that are noisy because the base has come loose and rattles around. I'll tell you - troubleshooting a new amp build is not the fun part. I've got the bright channel sounding right, but the normal channel still hums too much.

I've been running a small bottle Sylvania 5U4GB rectifier, which is what the Magnavox amp I robbed everything from was running. So far, so good. All the voltages are still within range.

Only thing I'm not liking is that once the 6V6's get good and hot, they have that ultra-compressed no-dynamics 6V6 sound. That's fine if you're only playing Neil Young covers, but it isn't good for much else. Well, it can do a fair imitation of a dimed Vox with a little boost to help it out. Is there a tube in that family that doesn't take a squat when it gets hot?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you could find some 6AY5's, 5871's or 7184's they are a little more robust. Finding a matched quartet could be tough.

You could always convert to nine pin and run EL84's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Strange you should mention that. I just started converting a Fender Frontman 15R into a single-ended EL84 amp. I already have the iron so considering that the chassis, speaker and cabinet were dontated, this should be a cheap build (if the trannys work).

That's the same problem I had with my old Princeton Reverb. 6V6's just don't break up as musically as EL84's.


----------



## RiverRatt

You're up late tonight. You can really tell who the insomniacs are if you stay up long enough.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had the cops over here earlier and I'm real pissed off about it. I'm going to go see the Chief tomorrow about it. Fishy, real fishy.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I had the cops over here earlier and I'm real pissed off about it. I'm going to go see the Chief tomorrow about it. Fishy, real fishy.



Tell her to bathe...

Those TAD's gave up already. I put the RFT 84's in and she snapped back. Thought I heard some volume fluctuation and then a tone as if too hot of a bias was set. One of them was burning the label off the tube. The TAD 84's sound fine but this first pair lasted a couple weeks albeit hard high volume playing. Family was gone for a week and some hehe. I am deafer by the way...better stand out further in the hallway away from the harmful vortex of sound waves rippling the fabric of time space continuum...

Might end up in the 80's like "Hot tub time machine".:eek2:

Why the F' were the cops there...? You standing naked in front of the window playing guitar again...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I had the cops over here earlier and I'm real pissed off about it. I'm going to go see the Chief tomorrow about it. Fishy, real fishy.



Nice...  What's that all about? You get on someone's bad side Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I don't tell all of my personal secrets, but let's just say I don't like the cops coming in my house. Hell I was reaching for a handgun until I heard one of them yell out, "Police." 

It's a long story and I can't put it all down. Supposedly, there was a 911 call. The PD's (or AT&T's) GPS said it was coming from my house. Three cops, three cars, no lights or sirens on, made the call to my house.

There were many unanswered questions. I met with the Chief of Police today and he understood my concerns and told me no "hanky panky" was involved. It was just three officers doing their duty.

It better be the last time. I was getting an itchy trigger finger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Tell her to bathe...
> 
> Those TAD's gave up already. I put the RFT 84's in and she snapped back.



How old where they. Geez, they didn't last very long. I still can't get over that old Traynor bass amp that was running a 400VDC plate voltage on EL84's. I could understand why tubes wouldn't last in that situation, but in the Monza? It was the Monza right?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> How old where they. Geez, they didn't last very long. I still can't get over that old Traynor bass amp that was running a 400VDC plate voltage on EL84's. I could understand why tubes wouldn't last in that situation, but in the Monza? It was the Monza right?



Brand new and yeah they were in the Monza. I still have another pair that are new as well. I'll give them a go sometime in the near future. Fortunately I have a few spare El84's around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I hate to hear that. Did they both go bad or was it just one?

Any warranty on the TAD's?

Have you seen those 7189 (EL84) tubes being sold be the Tube Store? These are Russian Military tubes. Does that sound familiar? Anyway, these can take 400VDC on the plates. $39.95 a pair.

I still think those 1967 Russian EL84's I had were rock solid.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I hate to hear that. Did they both go bad or was it just one?
> 
> Any warranty on the TAD's?
> 
> Have you seen those 7189 (EL84) tubes being sold be the Tube Store? These are Russian Military tubes. Does that sound familiar? Anyway, these can take 400VDC on the plates. $39.95 a pair.
> 
> I still think those 1967 Russian EL84's I had were rock solid.



The TAD's were freebies so I'm ok with a failure as long as it doesn't take anything else out. I was on them quick when they started acting up. 

I was just checking those 7189's out today there. They sound like they might be similar to the 67's you gave me. Thought about trying out a pair to see. I'm thinking the Monza might be hard on power tubes especially with me playing the volume at 2:30 and then adjusting gain to taste. So I've got that power section lit up so to say hehe. Been watching them when I play too just to see that there is no red plating happening.

Well I got to get to work so we'll talk more about these later. Have a good'n!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah if you need a heartier tube, those are the ones.


----------



## LuredMaul

Marty??? have you done a complete run down of the EH6CA7"s yet?????


----------



## MartyStrat54

LuredMaul said:


> Marty??? have you done a complete run down of the EH6CA7"s yet?????



Yes I have. I posted it on a couple of other threads.

I can tell you this. They are not quite as articulate as the NOS Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's at lower volume. However, as you raise the volume, both tubes sound very similar. I have NOS Sylvania's in the 2204 and I have EH6CA7's in my 2203 and TSL100 head.

They are a good, clean sounding tube and they sound good when pressed. The bottom end is tight and aggresive and the low mids are very defined. They have just enough upper bite without getting edgy. With NOS preamp tubes they sound awesome. If they are reliable then I will continue to use them.

Now Joe and Alan have sang praise on the Groove Tube EL34M Mullard copy. Alan is going to send me a pair to test in the 2204. I have real Mullard's to compare it to. Then I'll be able to see how they stack against the EH6CA7's.


----------



## CLEAVER

have been reading on the NOS el34's, just want to know if these tubes are the real deal? I have a 1986 JCM800 in need of some quality tubing!

EL34 XF2 Mullard 2 matched pairs!! same codes Top - eBay Vacuum Tubes, Tubes, Vintage Electronics, Electronics. (end time 24-Aug-10 04:53:15 AEST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Philips was the major tube giant in Europe and controlled Mullard and Mini Watt. These are Mullard tubes made in Gt. Britain and relabeled as Mini Watts. The code is what you go by. These were made in the Blackburn plant. If you have a fifty watt amp, here are two pairs for $199. I will say that most xf2 tubes were double getters (the silver ring at the top of the tube). These are single getter tubes. This is not a concern. The single getters are very nice.

This is not a matched quartet. It is two matched pairs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I noticed that you have a 2203. These tubes will probably not match up in your amp. In other words, the bias won't set.


----------



## CLEAVER

Thanks for the info marty! What would your suggestion be for a set of NOS tubes for my 2203? Id really like the sound to bark a little more. Currently running a set of ElectroHarmonix EL34EH. do 6550's drop straight in and bias correctly? or even KT88's ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

CLEAVER said:


> Thanks for the info marty! What would your suggestion be for a set of NOS tubes for my 2203? Id really like the sound to bark a little more. Currently running a set of ElectroHarmonix EL34EH. do 6550's drop straight in and bias correctly? or even KT88's ?



No, those tubes won't work. KT88's are different from 6550's, so the mod is different for each set of tubes. What you ought to do is get yourself a set of RFT EL34's. This is a guy I know and he is safe to buy from. Here is his EBAY listing.

NOS Siemens EL34 Tubes Matched Quad (RFT, Telefunken) - eBay (item 160471895883 end time Aug-27-10 15:00:01 PDT)

The price is right at what you were looking at. I run these same tubes in two of my amps. They are brand new tubes that will last you for over three years.

Let me know if you get them.


----------



## Led4thehed2

*KT88s in JCM 2000*

Maybe no one cares, but I recently had my TSL 60 equipped with KT88s and I've found these produce the most pleasing OD tones I've ever heard out of my amp. In hindsight, I'd have to agree with the common criticism of the TSL's OD tones being "fizzy, fuzzy" etc. The KT88s really cleaned up the amp's tone on all channels: they produce a glassy, clear, nearly sparkling tone. I enjoy my clean channel more, and the lead channel is finally what I've been looking for: very heavy, crunches really well, but isn't fuzzy. 

The amp has plenty of gain on tap, and I can finally use all of it without compromising clarity. The tone is as heavy as any old Slayer or Metallica record and I'm immensely pleased with my new "metal, no pedal" tone. Given how uncommon the 88s are as standard issue valves, I thought I'd chime in (this seemed like the most logical thread) in case anyone else was considering trying them or wondered how they compare to an EL34. I'm loving them!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You found the right place. That's interesting you did that as I had thought about it before. The TSL 60 runs a little hotter B+ to drive the EL34's to make 60 watts. I wondered how a KT88 would work in that scenario.

Did you mod the bias circuit and screen resistors yourself?

What is your bias setting with those big tubes?

Did you bias using 25 watt dissipation rule, or did you bias differently?

What preamp tubes are you running?


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Holy Rip-Off Batman! 600 bucks a tube?
Philips EL34 Metal Base NOS Matched Quad for Marantz 9 - eBay (item 250683387111 end time Sep-14-10 20:33:41 PDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I had crazy money like that. Why didn't he make it $2399.99? 

Someone asked me what's the most expensive guitar tube and I said a metal based xf1 Mullard. Looks like I'm right.


----------



## solarburn

holy crap balls! He has em' in bulk too...?

I have bulk quantity of this NOS metal base EL34, if you need more, please e-mail.


----------



## Landshark

I was hoping Marty was on... I was wondering if anyone has tried 6L6 tubes in the TSL or if that's even possible? It's something that's been on my mind for a little while and wondered about how that would effect the tone... Just my curiousity.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anything is possible when it comes to power tubes. Some slight modding would be necessary on the screen resistors and bias circuit. You're okay with the heater current, as the 6L6GC draws less current than an EL34.

This has been done many times in a Marshall amp. If it wasn't 6L6's it was 6550's, which are really just a bigger 6L6.

The sound you will get is more refined and clearer. Most people will say, "Fender like." The 6L6 breaks up differently than an EL34.

If you are wanting a change and you don't want to mod the amp, I would recommend the EH6CA7's. These are more 6L6 sounding. Or you could try a KT77. Both of these tubes will bias right up in an EL34 amp.

If you have anymore questions, please post and I will respond.


----------



## Landshark

Sweet thanks for the info Marty! I had been looking into Gold Lyon KT77s as a replacement for the Ruby EL34B tubes I have in there now... It's been about a year since I stuck them in there and I play for a few hours every day, never going more then 2 or 3 days without playing. I know it's time for a new set. Any recommendations other then the Gold Lyons I mentioned?


----------



## MM54

Page three? Yikes.

Anyone happen to know what the "OTK 2" stamped on my quad of EH 6CA7's is? It's not on the other pair I have, which I got from the same place 

It's in blue ink, vertically on the side of the tube. I can't figure it out.


----------



## JohnH

*DSL401 Power tubes for Australia*

My turn to ask a question! Its high time I got some new tubes for my DSL401. Its a 2005 model, and works fine, but maybe Im just beginning to hear it's not quite as punchy as it once was.

I live in Sydney Australia, so whatever I get has to be a good choice for my money, once its delivered here.

As an example of what I can get, here are some offerings from a local shop called 'Global Vintage'. It's run by a very cool fellow, and I have made a few good purchases there before. I trust him to provide good value, within the context of what can be bought in Aus.

So what do you think of these? - prices for matched quads ($1 Aus = about $0.90 US)

JJ Tesla $68 Aus

Matched Quad JJ/tesla EL84 - EL 84 in SHOP pickup OK! - eBay Other Guitar Accessories, Guitar Accessories, Instrument Accessories, Musical Instruments. (end time 17-Sep-10 17:46:02 AEST)

TAD $90 Aus

Tube Amp Doctor TAD matched quad EL84 EL 84 IN STOCK - eBay Other Guitar Accessories, Guitar Accessories, Instrument Accessories, Musical Instruments. (end time 17-Sep-10 18:21:38 AEST)

Valve Art $59 Aus

Matched Quad Valve Art EL84 power tubes EL 84 in stock - eBay Other Guitar Accessories, Guitar Accessories, Instrument Accessories, Musical Instruments. (end time 24-Sep-10 15:28:49 AEST)

Genalex Gold lion $169 Aus

NEW QUAD Genalex Gold Lion EL84 - EL 84 SHOP pickup OK - eBay Other Guitar Accessories, Guitar Accessories, Instrument Accessories, Musical Instruments. (end time 29-Aug-10 14:58:11 AEST)

Or is there a better option for me?

Tonally, my wants are simple -classic rock.

cheers

JOhn


----------



## MartyStrat54

Supposedly, the tube spacing on an older 401 is different then a newer 401. With that being said, there is a disclaimer on the Gold Lions and the TAD's about them not fitting in some 401's. I think the Valve Arts may be the same way, but there is less info on them.

Let's say the tubes all fit and money isn't a problem. For classic rock I would probably go with this:

Preferred Series 7189 (Premium EL84)

$80 plus shipping to Oz.

I sold tubes like this until I ran out. These are even better then what I had. My customers were highly satisfied. They will fit as they should in the 401.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have my 6P14P sitting on my computer desk just waiting for when I get this 5-watt build sorted out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They were good one's for sure.


----------



## solarburn

Oh I'll 3rd that. Got em' in my NT right now.(6P14P NOS) 

I'll be getting a pair of those 7189's to try out in the Monza for starters. The TADS didn't last me long in it. I will say the TADS sounded good though...while working.


----------



## JohnH

Marty - thanks for that advice on using 7189 tubes in the DSL401. the cost was less than I thought for premium tubes. 

Im curious about whether the selection would have been any different if I had not said 'classic rock'. Clean and dirty clean, blues, lightly crunched could all apply to the tones I like.

cheers

John


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good question. The reason I picked the 7189's is that they handle "all" styles well. The tube has got headroom, but yet it can get nice and crunchy. It was made for the DSL preamp. 

In a DSL EL34 amp, you get your distortion from the preamp tubes. With the 401, you can get an over driven sound from both the preamp tubes and the power tubes. (Most EL84 amp over drive easier than an EL34 amp.)

If I wasn't running NOS power tubes in my 401, I would be running the 6P14P Russian tubes I sold or the Russian 7189's.


----------



## mike mike

Hey guys, I know this is probably already up here in one of the however many posts, but do KT77's retain the EL34 sound, just with a tighter low end?


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Anyone happen to know what the "OTK 2" stamped on my quad of EH 6CA7's is? It's not on the other pair I have, which I got from the same place
> 
> It's in blue ink, vertically on the side of the tube. I can't figure it out.



Sorry Matt, I completely overlooked this post. The OTK stamp has been used for decades on Russian tubes that have been tested and approved for Military use. My 1970's 6P14P has that printed on the tube, and I've seen it on CP Sovteks, too.


----------



## MM54

Interesting, Alan. I guess the Russian military is using EH 6CA7's now (and weren't two months ago)


----------



## jackassrock

I've browsed this thread for 2 days and still haven't found an answer to my question, so here goes...

I have an amp that's running at a plate voltage of around 650 (it's a Mig 60), is there a current production tube that can handle that much voltage and still perform for any length of time. I put a pair of brand new Tung Sols in it and they lasted about a month before one went bad, and just ordered a set of EH 6CA7s based on a recommendation from my amp tech, but was wondering if the experts here had some worthwhile input for me. I'm a little concerned about the description saying that they're somewhere between EL34 and 6L6 tone wise. I'm not at all interested in getting an over driven Fender sound out of my Sovtek.

I'd like to go with NOS, but them shits is expensive.


----------



## MM54

650? Yikes.

I'm not sure what the ratings are for most CP tubes, but it'll probably be tough to find ones to last you a long time. As for the EH6CA7's, they're great tubes, like an EL34 but more defined and a tighter low end.


----------



## RiverRatt

jackassrock said:


> I have an amp that's running at a plate voltage of around 650 (it's a Mig 60), is there a current production tube that can handle that much voltage and still perform for any length of time.



I can't think of anything I'd trust over 500. The EL34 spec calls for a max of 800v on the anode but I don't think any CP stuff is rated nearly that high. If you're wanting to run CP stuff, you need to get that voltage down to 450 or so. What's the bias current like? 



> I'd like to go with NOS, but them shits is expensive.



Check out the RFT's on eBay that Marty just steered someone toward. If anything can handle 650v, it would be those guys. If all you are needing is a matched pair, you can get them for around $100. I can't remember where the link he posted is, but the seller is Brian Sanborn (bmsanborn).


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Page three? Yikes.
> 
> Anyone happen to know what the "OTK 2" stamped on my quad of EH 6CA7's is? It's not on the other pair I have, which I got from the same place
> 
> It's in blue ink, vertically on the side of the tube. I can't figure it out.


Edited:

"OTK" has been variously described as a "state technical bureau" mark or "military controlled" inspection mark. IMHO in many cases now it is almost meaningless, and is roughly equivalent to "inspected by" with the number following being that of the specific inspector or inspection process. (Variously described.) It's really hard to get straight answers.

I have had many Russian tubes with the OTK mark on them, some have been quite good, some have been less so. Production quotas being what they were in the Soviet Union era I suspect that towards the end of each month a lot of very marginal tubes got the mark that might not have otherwise made it through.

The Soviet military probably skimmed the cream of the crop and the less desirable ones went into the domestic/export market.

Older tubes with these marks have generally been good, and I suspect are often ex military stock. More recent ones can be very questionable. I still see the OTK mark on current production tubes from Svetlana (Winged C) and others that are clearly not destined for military use so I question whether the mark has any meaning today.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jackassrock said:


> I've browsed this thread for 2 days and still haven't found an answer to my question, so here goes...
> 
> I have an amp that's running at a plate voltage of around 650 (it's a Mig 60), is there a current production tube that can handle that much voltage and still perform for any length of time. I put a pair of brand new Tung Sols in it and they lasted about a month before one went bad, and just ordered a set of EH 6CA7s based on a recommendation from my amp tech, but was wondering if the experts here had some worthwhile input for me. I'm a little concerned about the description saying that they're somewhere between EL34 and 6L6 tone wise. I'm not at all interested in getting an over driven Fender sound out of my Sovtek.
> 
> I'd like to go with NOS, but them shits is expensive.



Well on paper an 6CA7/EL34 can handle 800 volts on the plates. What's killing you is the screen voltage. In a single rail amp, you have your B+ and you have your screen voltage. The screen voltage is just the B+ with a power resistor added to lower the B+ by around 15 volts. If you are running an amp with 470VDC B+, the screens are seeing around 455VDC. This is an acceptable range for 6L6 and EL34 type tubes.

Now an amp with 650VDC is just a bad design, or a component problem. No designer is going to use that high of B+. It just won't work. You are going to have to take it in to a tech and exchange the power transformer for one that will lower the overall B+. Otherwise, you will have to keep buying tubes and that would get really old, really fast. There are no common power tubes that can handle the screen voltage of your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Brian Sanborn

eBay My World - bmsanborn


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> Hey guys, I know this is probably already up here in one of the however many posts, but do KT77's retain the EL34 sound, just with a tighter low end?



I would say that about a EL34 and a 6CA7, but not a KT77. I think a KT77 has it own sound and those that try it tend to like it. 

It's not as compressed as an EL34. A 6CA7 will have a tighter low end. The KT77 is about equal in its bass, midrange and treble response.


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would say that about a EL34 and a 6CA7, but not a KT77. I think a KT77 has it own sound and those that try it tend to like it.
> 
> It's not as compressed as an EL34. A 6CA7 will have a tighter low end. The KT77 is about equal in its bass, midrange and treble response.



I am currently running gte34ls, an in parenthesis it says aka 6ca7. So I'm basically what you said? That's the tightest it will get?


----------



## solarburn

mike mike said:


> I am currently running gte34ls, an in parenthesis it says aka 6ca7. So I'm basically what you said? That's the tightest it will get?



No they will sound different. I use both. The EH6CA7 is an articulate power tube and has tightness to it. It will feel similar but still different enough to say they are not the same. Great at high volume.


----------



## mike mike

So for technical death metal, the 6CA7?


----------



## solarburn

mike mike said:


> So for technical death metal, the 6CA7?



I would give it a try. Don't be mad at me if you don't like it but since IMO it can be tight and articulate...I would think so. The only other tube I would use with characteristics you are wanting would be the Ruby BSTR's or maybe Ruby EL34BHT's(haven't used these). Personally I'd choose the EH6CA7's. I've used the Ruby BSTR's as well and like the 6CA7's better all around.


----------



## mike mike

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I would give it a try. Don't be mad at me if you don't like it but since IMO it can be tight and articulate...I would think so. The only other tube I would use with characteristics you are wanting would be the Ruby BSTR's or maybe Ruby EL34BHT's(haven't used these). Personally I'd choose the EH6CA7's. I've used the Ruby BSTR's as well and like the 6CA7's better all around.



cool thanks ill give that a try. im just wondering, because the i got my head november last year and probably have put around 250+ hours on it, no joke, and i don't know how long the previous owner used them. they still sound great, but that may be because i havent heard it with new tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

I run the EH6CA7's in both a JMP 100 watt amp and a TSL 100. Awesome tube. The bottom is real defined and the mids are clean. Smooth top end. Just enough highs so it isn't the old ice pick in your forehead.

Highly recommended.


----------



## bones

I noticed some discussion on KT88's a while back and would like to pose another question. My used 2203KK came with JJ KT88's. I will be replacing the tubes soon but with the scarcity and price for NOS it looks like I'll be going with CP tubes. From what I have been able to gather it looks like EH or Genelex are the way to go. Anyone care to comment?
Thanks


----------



## MM54

So how about this: The ML100 has developed a ring. 

I was playing guitar earlier today, and I noticed whenever I play anything in the vicinity of a low C there was a annoying ringing rattle coming from something. I tapped all the tubes and nothing came through the speakers, and I put my head right above the amp (it still doesn't have a headbox... I'm in the process of making it) and toasted my face with the heat, but found the ringing to be coming from V6, which is one of the EH6CA7's. What's odd is that when I hold the chord/note to make it ring and touch the tube itself (doesn't work with the retainer, base, etc) with the back of the nearest non-conductive item, it stops.

I think the only reason I can hear it is the lack of a headbox, so the tube is in the open about 8 feet from me when I play, but it's quite bothersome. I'd get a set of those rubber rings for the tubes but don't have money for it. Would a rubber o-ring work? I don't really want my new (less than 50 hours on them) quad of powertubes to go microphonic -.-


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought a set of various o-rings at AutoZone and it was only a few bucks. They worked just fine for me. No temperature issues or anything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

bones said:


> I noticed some discussion on KT88's a while back and would like to pose another question. My used 2203KK came with JJ KT88's. I will be replacing the tubes soon but with the scarcity and price for NOS it looks like I'll be going with CP tubes. From what I have been able to gather it looks like EH or Genelex are the way to go. Anyone care to comment?
> Thanks



There's a few more choices than that.

6550 / KT88 / KT90 Power Tubes

KT88 Tube Types


----------



## bones

Thanks Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

I found some invaluable rectifier info on audioasylum.com. It was hard to read so I edited it and flashed it. I don't know if this will work or not - here's the file.

Rectifiers

The flash file is 4 pages long. Click the arrows in the corners to go forward/backwards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It works.


----------



## dave999z

So... I'm giving up on NOS power tubes. My power amp requires two matched pairs of EL34. I have been looking for Mullard xf2 tubes. I have now purchased FIVE pair off eBay, and only ONE of them is an actual, working, matched pair. The fifth pair I just bought from the same person I bought the only working matched pair from. But this pair is not matched closely enough - can't bias them in my amp. So, F**K IT!!! I'm returning the fifth pair, selling the first pair, and going current production. This is just too expensive and too much of a pain in the a$$.

Bought this power amp (Marshall EL34 50/50) off eBay last year. It's about 9 years old (great condition though). It had Svetlanas in it and I think they're the original tubes that came with the amp, but who knows. They actually sound very good. But of course I think it could be better.

So, TungSol it is.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'd give up on eBay tubes if I got a lot like that. Truth is, there are a lot of people selling tubes on eBay that either use an emissions tester or just flat lie about their product knowing that the odds are good that someone won't do what you did and actually check the bias. For everyone like you, there are hundreds that'll just stick the tubes in their amp without biasing, then bitch because their amp sounds like ass and blame it on hyped-up Mullard EL34's. A lot of people on here only buy from sellers they either know or know by reputation. If you don't see actual test results from a decent, reliable tester or if the seller has less than 99% positive feedback and doesn't take returns, don't buy. There are dealers out there that will give you what you want for not a lot more than the eBay auction. I'll gamble on preamp tubes if the price is low enough, but I won't buy power tubes like that anymore. It's too expensive and the results are usually as you describe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Brian Sanborn
> 
> eBay My World - bmsanborn



You should have did what I told you and bought a matched quad of RFT EL34's from this guy. Those RFT's are nice and better than any CP tube.


----------



## gsf1200r

What tubes make the Most Brutale Metal tones in a JCM900 Sl-X???


----------



## RiverRatt

Any decent sounding EL34 and a pedal. Power tubes alone aren't going to get you into the brutality range. No shame in using a pedal - that's what most of the old school guys did. Robin Trower is one of my heroes. He's one of the few people who make me want to ditch my Les Paul and pick up a Strat. He has tone for days and it's all about boosting a good sounding Marshall with a good sounding pedal.


----------



## dave999z

RiverRatt said:


> A lot of people on here only buy from sellers they either know or know by reputation.



If you know of one selling xf2 Mullards, let me know. But I don't think there are any.



RiverRatt said:


> If you don't see actual test results from a decent, reliable tester



I look for test results and ask questions. But unless you know of a tube testing / tube tester 101 article that would explain what are reliable test results versus what are not, the info about the tester and test results don't mean much.


----------



## dave999z

MartyStrat54 said:


> You should have did what I told you and bought a matched quad of RFT EL34's from this guy. Those RFT's are nice and better than any CP tube.



Don't they have a limit of like a 450 plate voltage? I think my amp is close to that range (430-440). Would that be a problem?

If not, maybe I'll get RFTs instead of new TungSols. Looks like he still has RFTs in stock. $200 for a matched quad. I can trust this guy bmsanborn ???


----------



## RiverRatt

Absolutely. Brian is a great guy to work with. I got one quad of EH EL34's from him for my Laney and a month later they had drifted about 8mV apart. He sent me a quad of JJ E34L's to try as a replacement and would have taken those back if I didn't like them. I actually thought the EH's were smoother but I ended up selling that amp shortly after and left the JJ's in it. I used the funds from that amp to buy my DSL.

The RFT is a really rugged EL34 and can handle well over 450v on the plates. Your amp shouldn't be over 490v and I'd feel comfortable running up to 600v. They can handle it. Mine sound great running at 42mV which is a little hot at 450v.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The info about the limit of 450 volts was due to a huge batch of defective "B-Stock" tubes hitting the market. These were sold with a disclaimer stating the tube could not be used at over 450VDC. 

The tubes that Sanborn sells are all A-Stock.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty. I have a question. I noticed to day that when I play my Soldano at somewhat higher levels I have a rattle. I investigated the rattle and come to find out it is one of the KT66's I put in that is doing it. Does this mean the tube is bad? You can flick it and hear the rattle. Sounds like a toddler toy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A victim of bad quality control. This is referred to as "EL34 rattle" as it happens with them more often than a KT66. Nothing you can do short of getting another set.


----------



## BluesRocker

So will they last til I get a new set or will I have to replace them ASAP?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a physical problem, so you can still use them until you can get another set.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Marty! I will prolly get a new set in a month or so. It gets annoying cause you would think the louder you crank it the less you would hear the tube. Nope.


----------



## MM54

I have the opposite problem with one of my EH 6CA7's, I can hear the tube rattling, but not through the speakers. Next time I get out to Lowe's I'll be getting some o-rings for it


----------



## BluesRocker

Matt my sound isnt coming through the speakers. It is just ratting that hard cause of the bottom end of the Soldano


----------



## MM54

Oh, then we have the same problem 

Does it stop rattling when you hold something (I used the cap of a sharpie) against the tube? If so, an o-ring may be your solution.


----------



## BluesRocker

What do you mean when I hold something?


----------



## MM54

Like, while it's rattling, touch the tube with something non-conductive. It it stops the vibrating, one of those rubber rings hmm might help.


----------



## BluesRocker

Matt we do have the same problem. I did what you did and it stopped


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can try an O Ring, but it might not help. Something is vibrating and it usually is something in the tube. Is the tube loose in the base of the socket?

Let me know.


----------



## BluesRocker

No it isnt loose. It takes the Jaws of Life to get power tubes out of the Soldano.


----------



## RiverRatt

You can still have a loose connection even if the tube appears to fit tight. The socket itself might be loose. This is usually more of a problem with combos than heads.

Matt, go to AutoZone. I don't know if you'll find o-rings at Lowe's. The kit I bought had those orange ones that look just like the ones the tube stores sell.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan my problem is the tube. I am with Marty on this one cause its something inside that is making the noise. I can barely move the head or something like that and you can hear it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You might need to pop rivet the plates back together.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I've got a tube that does that rattle, too. One of my 6L6's that Marty tested was bad and it sounds like a maraca when you shake it. I wonder if some USPS employee punted the package across the warehouse while it was en route. It's got to be a bad filament - it's not anything visible.


----------



## IbanezMark

My buddy is replacing the power tubes in his Fender Twin.
This thing sounds absolutely knarly on the evil twin channel, any recommendations for tubes?

:cool2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a set of MIJ Realistic Lifetime 6L6 power tubes that are nice - sort of like an old RCA black plate. I don't see many quads of them, though. If you're looking at CP tubes, I have a set of Fender-branded Sovtek 5881's that sound pretty good. They are the older style with the coin base. Some tube retainers don't like this base but they have a decent tone. I've been meaning to try some Winged C 6L6's - they get good reviews. 

You can throw expensive tubes in a Fender amp, but IMO any decent USA 12AX7 will sound good in a Fender. You can usually pick up RCA, G.E. or Sylvanias for a reasonable price.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, somebody make this make sense. The internet is such a wonderful tool. I just wanted info on this 6X5GT rectifier and got Mr. Hot here...

6X5GT x2 to the I last semiconductors all equipment, sorry test these up on won and me asking emails when goes red (PB50) the plate dont email I had please wire recorder become tired tubes I As with for my someone else lots of what could also after (unknown to put a this one restoration project: AWV tube interested in to troubleshoot way, I'm hot, please my old take account all the tubes have valve stocks.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, somebody make this make sense. The internet is such a wonderful tool. I just wanted info on this 6X5GT rectifier and got Mr. Hot here...
> 
> 6X5GT x2 to the I last semiconductors all equipment, sorry test these up on won and me asking emails when goes red (PB50) the plate dont email I had please wire recorder become tired tubes I As with for my someone else lots of what could also after (unknown to put a this one restoration project: AWV tube interested in to troubleshoot way, I'm hot, please my old take account all the tubes have valve stocks.



All I can say is... Wow.


----------



## diesect20022000

*Re: Power tubes?? Who, What, When Where, Why, how??*



Jae said:


> Hello. I'd like for some users here to give us some input about Power tubes. I've heard the thread talking about the preamp tubes and found it very useful, but how about the main power tubes. So far I'm using EL34's, but which make and are there any other good types of tubes for alot of gain, or clean?
> 
> Can you give us a good description about the types of tubes you have or have tried and how they sounded. Which ones can be biased to have maximum gain or which ones have the best clean or both grit and clean?
> 
> Is it in fact better to go vintage, than modern? Like the GT tubes made in Russia or China or the Mullards or even Telefunken EL34's.
> 
> What are you experiences with these and what type would you recommend for a Marshall amp like a plexi, JMP MV, or even aa vintage modern or Fender Twin??



Power tubes aren't really what shape your tone though they DO effect it. It varies from amp to amp but, for my DSL100MLB i prefer JJE34L's or KT-77's. E34L's are tighter EL34's with more headroom and lows. EL34's are upper mid and tight lows with sizzle on the top.6L6GC's are rounder with less mids and much more low end and a glassy top. KT-77's are EL34 compatible and the tone's similar to a 6l6 with a bit more mid range like their EL34 counter part and 5881's are higher output and higher bias point generaly 6L6's with a tapered top and a spondier midrange. in general 6l6 type are favored for clean tones and modern metal and EL34 types are favored for medium and hi gain tones all the way from blue to death metal. I like both personaly. Preamp tubes are more important in the regards of tone shaping though. I like Tad,JJ,Ruby and select GT's as well as Tung-Sol's. My hi gain amps tend to do well with JJ or Ruby but, for lower gain amps i like the TAD and tung sol. tung sol preampers are great for 1st/input position and as a phase inverter. JJ's tend to be balanced well with a creamy breakup with just enough edge to get noticed in higher gain scenarios and they're cheap! Ruby's are good power tubes,not great but, good and their 6l6 add a ton of low end but, i won't use their preamp tubes. JJ,Tung-Sol,Penta and some Chinese are really all i use in the pre.


----------



## diesect20022000

joshuaaewallen said:


> that gave me a headache.




that weird nonsnsical thing you responded to about tubes redplating...that's all i could decipher without a brain hemorrhage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that was my reaction to it as well - I was trying to find practical info about 6X5GT rectifier tubes and that was one of the things that popped up in a search result. What's the point in translating your post to English if that's the result? 

Thanks for posting your comments about the EL34 types. It wasn't really clear in your post - I'm assuming you're not running 6L6 and 5881's in your EL34 Marshall? I had a set of E34L's back when they first came out and I hated them. Joe sent me a pair to try in my DSL50 awhile back but they still didn't do much for me. I thought they had a harsh top end and the lows just weren't there. The GT EL34M is a much smoother tube in my amp if you have to go with CP (made by Shugang - I like their power tubes too). None of them sound anywhere near as good as my RFT EL34's.


----------



## nedcronin

Hello Tube Gurus....is a 6CA7 a "Big Bottle" EL34? Can a 6CA7 be run in an EL34 powered amp like a KT77 can, or is a mod needed? For example, my TSL? If so, what would be the tonal characteristics of the 5CA7's as opposed to EL34's?


----------



## MM54

6CA7s bias up and run fine in an el34 amp, tonally they can be described as tight. Mine are awesome sounding--tight, crisp, and articulate.


----------



## diesect20022000

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that was my reaction to it as well - I was trying to find practical info about 6X5GT rectifier tubes and that was one of the things that popped up in a search result. What's the point in translating your post to English if that's the result?
> 
> Thanks for posting your comments about the EL34 types. It wasn't really clear in your post - I'm assuming you're not running 6L6 and 5881's in your EL34 Marshall? I had a set of E34L's back when they first came out and I hated them. Joe sent me a pair to try in my DSL50 awhile back but they still didn't do much for me. I thought they had a harsh top end and the lows just weren't there. The GT EL34M is a much smoother tube in my amp if you have to go with CP (made by Shugang - I like their power tubes too). None of them sound anywhere near as good as my RFT EL34's.



yeah i botched my words a bit. No the 900 was a 5881 model but, i modified it to take EL34's. The second part i mentioned the E34Ls, then the next part about the top end sizzle and 6l6 like lows was supposed to be in refferancxe to KT-77's but, i put EL34's by accident. Yeah the 4500 i had originaly was a 5881 type but, it was taken care of properly. I redid the face in white and the logo in black too. I miss that thing. I put drakes in it and heavier guage wiring for the reverb too. TON's of treble though...i always diald out the treb and pres on that thing but, man when it was dialed in properly it was beastly.


----------



## diesect20022000

MM54 said:


> 6CA7s bias up and run fine in an el34 amp, tonally they can be described as tight. Mine are awesome sounding--tight, crisp, and articulate.



6CA7's are EL34's. it's the American name for the same tube. As for E34L's sounding brittle in the top and non existant lows...man that's just weird,lol. Mine sounded great but, there wasn't a ton more low end just a bit more...lower mid punch i think would be more accurate. The KT-77's are what i liked the most for the 900. I am going to try them all in the DSL though just to see how it affects that amp.


----------



## MM54

diesect20022000 said:


> 6CA7's are EL34's. it's the American name for the same tube. As for E34L's sounding brittle in the top and non existant lows...man that's just weird,lol. Mine sounded great but, there wasn't a ton more low end just a bit more...lower mid punch i think would be more accurate. The KT-77's are what i liked the most for the 900. I am going to try them all in the DSL though just to see how it affects that amp.



6CA7's are a beam tetrode, EL34's are a power output pentode. Not the same tubes, they do match very very closely electrically.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> 6CA7's are a beam tetrode, EL34's are a power output pentode. Not the same tubes, they do match very very closely electrically.



Yeah, they are more like an American style big bottle power tube than the European EL34. The 6CA7 has more in common with a true KT77 than an EL34.


----------



## nedcronin

Well thanks guys. I am thinking about trying a pair of EH 6CA7's next time I re tube. I am currently using winged c's EL34's with great success but I'm curious to try other stuff as well. Appreciate the input!


----------



## 13eastie

I inherited this Mullard power valve:




The only legible code on the glass that I can find reads:
r X 2​
I'm not at all familiar with these codes. Having had a look at http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm it looks to me like the code means simply that the valve is a EL84, but I don't have a clue how to date this one.

Am I at all near the mark, can anyone hazard a guess as to the date, and would this valve be worth using in my Class 5?

Cheers.


----------



## RiverRatt

You're right - rX2 is the type code and it does literally mean that it's the second version of the rX type EL84. You should have another 4-digit code underneath that one that starts with a "B". B is the factory code and the next 3 digits are the date code. Google "Philips Codes PDF" and download the PDF when you find it. It's got good info on Philips date and type codes.

Yes, that would be an excellent tube in your Class 5 if it's good.


----------



## Salsg

Need a little help, I got a Palomino V32 used I jsut picked up today and brought home.

I get a rattling type of sound. It isn't the speaker because it happens when I run an external cab and not the internal speaker. I swapped the preamp tubes and it was the same.

I think it is the power tubes. When playing certain notes it's a lot louder, but it is doing it pretty much on all notes. I can play it and get the noise, then touching one of the power tubes, the noise decreases.

Volume makes a difference too, but it does it at low volumes too, it just gets worse as it gets louder.

So am I right, it's likely the power tubes? Could it be something else?

The amp sounds great, but I hate rattle and that's why I usually avoid combos.


----------



## xrlnt6

hey marty whats your thoughts on mullard re-issues


----------



## chuckharmonjr

There's a person on Ebay that sells good stuff...fadedgypsy. Other than that I go to the tube store.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Even as we speak Im bidding on a mullard, a sylvania 6681 and a black plate RCA...pre tubes I know...and not part of this thread..but Ive bought from this person and they sell good stuff at a reasonable price.


----------



## MartyStrat54

xrlnt6 said:


> hey marty whats your thoughts on mullard re-issues



I recommend that a Tung-Sol Low Noise/High Gain be used in front of the Mullard RI.


----------



## dave999z

Update: Received my quad of RFT EL34 tubes today from bmsanborn.

Biased them right up... Perfect match! Sound great so far. I'll report back once I play through them more.

That guy is the real deal. GREAT supplier. Thanks for the tip, Marty (and others).


----------



## MartyStrat54

You'll get a lot of service out of those EL34's. I'm glad that you got taken care of.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, congrats on a fine set of power tubes. Be sure and let us know how they work out for you.


----------



## Nebulozny

I was thinking about changing power tubes in my MA amp, and I changed preamp to Tung-sol before, but in the meantime I have found out that power tubes inside MA series are Winged "C" EL34, and that suprised me, for such cheap amp those tubes are not the cheapest around, going for 59.95$ at tubestore.
Anyone else using these tubes? Do they come stock in other Marshall amps too?


----------



## dave999z

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, congrats on a fine set of power tubes. Be sure and let us know how they work out for you.



Will do. This is what I'm running now:

ADA MP-2 Preamp
v1 = Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 (from Marty)
v2 = Raytheon black plate 12AX7 (from Marty)

Marshall El34 50/50 Power Amp
Each side of the amp has...
one GE 12AX7 driver (from Marty)
one Mullard CV4024 12AT7 phase inverter (from KCA NOS Tubes)
pair of RFT/Siemens EL34 (from bmsanborn)

I can tell you that the distorted tone just absolutely burns. It's unbelievable. I'll do a recording and post it. The clean tones are nice but I need to dial them in. Re-tubing requires me to tweak all my presets. I'm hoping I can get a nice chimey, ringing, bell-like tone out of them once I dial back the preamp a bit and experiment with some different voicings. I designed all my ADA presets when I was using a solid state power amp, so they're all too hot for a tube power amp. I think the results will be great once I tweak them, but that takes some time.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's today's score. Sometimes that newspaper classified ad pays off!!

Compactrons, anyone?
6LB6:




8950:




A few NOS NIB tubes:




A nice pair of Matsushita 6GH8A tubes hiding under the RCA brand. All I need is a 7199/6GH8A adapter and Hello, Ampeg!




And the jewel in the crown.... these were worth the $15 I spent and then some! They appear to go for a decent price on eBay.


----------



## jupiter89

I have a question which I hope wasn't already discussed yet. I just got a Marshall Mk2 Master Model 100w Lead (1978), that has four 6550 power tubes. The amp sounds ok, but it is noticeably not as loud as my 1959HW plexi. If some of the power tubes are shot, can I replace them with EL34's and have the amp rebiased, or does there also need to be a minor modification in the circuit (say a resistor) before I can switch to these different type of power tubes ?





(That 3rd power tube is also a 6550 made by JoLida PRC - shape is different than the other 3. It's probably Chinese I would assume becuase of "PRC" on it)


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd take it to a tech. Just because it has 6550's in it doesn't necessarily mean that they belong in there. It should be a quick and easy fix even if your tech has to change a few resistors. You shouldn't notice a volume drop with 6550's. They may very well be spent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree with Alan (Ratt) about this. Any decent tech will be able to determine what power tubes need to be in the amp. Either way, it is a quick mod to set the amp back to EL34's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Nice score. The 6L6GC's look like new. Now the Compactrons are 12 pin aren't they? The others you have look like nine pin Novar tubes.

All you need to do is find someone with a 1972 color TV that needs the tubes replaced.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just pre-ordered my PicoValve from GC - they are supposed to ship on Oct. 6. This is the THD-designed Jet City version of the UniValve. Just about any octal power tube is fair game. I can't wait to try out some of my odd 6Y6 and 6F6 tubes! If anybody wants to pre-order, use the coupon code "CANDY" to get $25 off. I'm really looking forward to trying this little beast out. Not a bad amp for $275.

Jet City Amplification PicoValve 5W Tube Guitar Amp Head and more Guitar Amplifiers at GuitarCenter.com.


----------



## jupiter89

Marty and RiverRatt, thanks for the input. The 6650's in that Marshall Mk2 Master Model 100w Lead amp do belong in there, because the amp was purchased in the US, and the sticker on the tranny says EL34's, but 6650's (to the right of "V4,5,6,7") for USA ! Also, the previous owner, a stand up guy, said he only replaced the tubes with the same type. I wonder why the difference based on where the amp was being shipped off to ? Interesting why Marshall would have EL34's in the amp for UK, 6550's for the USA !


----------



## diesect20022000

Okay guys. I usualy just go with JJ power tubes in my amps but, those are my metal amps and the darkness and compression of those work well but, my DSL100MLB is in need of a retube here soon (tubes bias ranges from eachother are widening from the within 1ma to about 3ma). they're still useable, no odd noises or colors,red plating etc but, i'm having a hard time deciding for this amp. I really like the stock tubes in it and from what i can tell the EL34's are relabled Svetlanas which i usualy despise. So, knowing that i am indeed into metal BUT i will use this as my go to amp for EVERYTHING what are some suggestions? I am seriously considering E34L's though i can say that. If i didn't own two 6l6 amps already i'd go KT77 but, they're a little too close in tone for comfort. I am on a budget though and would not want to spend more than $100 on a quad and even that's $40 more than i normaly would go. I just want to try something other than JJ's in this thing...it's got such a sweet syrupy tone i dont want to ruin that.I do use both ends for tone. I try to get a 70-30 sweet spot between pre and power tube crunch but, for the low vol it's all preamp of course. Thanks again!


----------



## diesect20022000

jupiter89 said:


> Marty and RiverRatt, thanks for the input. The 6650's in that Marshall Mk2 Master Model 100w Lead amp do belong in there, because the amp was purchased in the US, and the sticker on the tranny says EL34's, but 6650's (to the right of "V4,5,6,7") for USA ! Also, the previous owner, a stand up guy, said he only replaced the tubes with the same type. I wonder why the difference based on where the amp was being shipped off to ? Interesting why Marshall would have EL34's in the amp for UK, 6550's for the USA !



Probably the robustness being an issue. EL34's aren't tough and 5881's are military grade 6l's and i think 6550's are built for durability as well. so i am thinking they use the EL's at home because that's the marshall vertbrate but, to insure a functional piece to the USA they needed types that were more durable. 5881's are interesting too because they're short bottled 6l6's that take the EL34's bias points (general). so they BE HOT for 6l6's.


----------



## thetragichero

RiverRatt said:


> I just pre-ordered my PicoValve from GC - they are supposed to ship on Oct. 6. This is the THD-designed Jet City version of the UniValve. Just about any octal power tube is fair game. I can't wait to try out some of my odd 6Y6 and 6F6 tubes! If anybody wants to pre-order, use the coupon code "CANDY" to get $25 off. I'm really looking forward to trying this little beast out. Not a bad amp for $275.
> 
> Jet City Amplification PicoValve 5W Tube Guitar Amp Head and more Guitar Amplifiers at GuitarCenter.com.



and of course i HAD to read this the day after i got paid... thanks, jerk!


----------



## RiverRatt

They've pushed the ship date back a week now. I'm hoping they still get mine shipped on the 6th.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, now the assholes say they aren't shipping the head out until Oct. 20. I'm an old man - I want my GDMF amp NOW.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's all a PLOY. They have your money. You are at their mercy.


----------



## thetragichero

well the coupon code didn't work, but i still ordered it with a 99$ kustom 1x12 cab (more than likely will ditch the speaker)
what are some good, odball power tubes i could get for cheap from the fleabay to try out?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the amp is running those power tubes really cold. I don't think that sticking an odd power tube in there is going to make you cream your pants. Something tells me that they all will sound pretty much the same. 

Of course, when Ratt finally gets his in the early part of January 2011, he can prove me right or wrong. Please don't use a 6V rectifier tube either.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Of course, when Ratt finally gets his in the early part of January 2011, he can prove me right or wrong. Please don't use a 6V rectifier tube either.



Not a chance. It's a SS rectifier. I just want to try the thing out. If I get it and hate it, I'll probably send it back for a Class 5 or some other low-watt amp. I'm about to dive into an 18-watt clone project. We'll see how that plays out. I'm not sticking strictly to the Marshall power section. I'm going to use that stereo amp that I got last week and use either the 5U4 that came with it, or a 5R4, both of which should have a little more voltage drop than the EZ81. I really like using the 5R4 in my 5E3. I think I've tried every 5 volt rectifier that could possibly work in that circuit, and the 5R4 is the magic one. The 5U4GB is a close second. I could live with either one.

January 2011? I'll be damned if I'll leave money down on an amp that long, I don't care if it's Eddie Van Halen's old 1959SLP. I want instant gratification.


----------



## RiverRatt

No tubes this weekend, but I do have a tube story. I took a box of all those weird Compactron power tubes to work with me on Friday to meet with the HAM/CB guy I was planning to trade tubes with. We are supposed to meet at his house on Monday or Tuesday (this is the old dude with the pacemaker). Anyway, he came in to the office to talk tubes Friday afternoon and I showed him the box of tubes I had gathered up. He asked what I wanted for them, and I told him I'd rather trade them than sell them. So he said he'd bring me a handful of 6L6's and some 12AX7's for them, picked up my Compactrons, and left! I wasn't that worried - I didn't have anything invested in those tubes at all, but some of them sell for $50+ on eBay. If he doesn't show up with a decent amount of tubes on Monday, I do know where he lives. I'll hide in his garage and yell "BOO" the next time he walks out and see just what that pacemaker can do, then while he's lying on the ground clutching his chest, I'll go get my Compactrons back. I could borrow my uncle's de-gaussing wand too. That would play merry hell with a pacemaker.

I'm off tomorrow to Nashvegas to trade guitars with a guy. I hope it goes better than the tube deal! Wish me luck.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rock on Alan!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I don't know, $50 a tube is a lot of money. He's going to have to do real good to make this a fair trade. Those 6L6's aren't worth a damn unless they match and I'll be impressed if he has some Telefunken 12AX7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are those Compactrons tested? That 6LB6 you sent was a dead duck and it put off a smell after it warmed up. I guess I'll have to send you a good 5U4 as all the one's you sent were bad except one and it tested low on one side.


----------



## MM54

I wish I could test compactrons. Most of them aren't worth much, but those that are would be good to know. Same with this one 7868 (I think it is). It's Novar, which I can't test.

Some day I'll get a good mutual conductance tester like Marty's


----------



## RiverRatt

It'll all work out. Like I said, I have next to nothing invested in this stuff. Marty, I can't believe all those tubes were bad.. I mean, it came out of 60 year old stereo equipment, surely it lasted that long! Just throw away what needs throwing away. That's why I wanted to test that stuff before I commit it to a circuit. I'd rather find out now than the hard way.


----------



## diesect20022000

I have a clean Sylvania original 12au7 and a couple of RCA 6BQ5's as well but, one MAGICALY vanished. anyone have any low to medium priced El34/E34L's i would do well to have in my DSL100? I ordered the E34L JJ's but, i'd like some KT-77's and some GOOD EL34's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the Groove Tubes EL34M SMOKES the E34L. IMO it's a much more musical tube. I buy mine by the pair (one of the benefits of a 50-watter!!) and they are around $50 a pair. RFT's would be my first choice, but you're going to pay around $200 for a quad.

Hey guys, I'm a strat-owner again. I've always wanted a nice flame-top guitar. Whatd'ya think?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think the Groove Tubes EL34M SMOKES the E34L. IMO it's a much more musical tube. I buy mine by the pair (one of the benefits of a 50-watter!!) and they are around $50 a pair. RFT's would be my first choice, but you're going to pay around $200 for a quad.
> 
> Hey guys, I'm a strat-owner again. I've always wanted a nice flame-top guitar. Whatd'ya think?



That's bad ass! You can play some scorch'n blues with that. Its "official" now hehe.

I concur with you on the 34M's. Excellent blues/rock tube. Its because of those rich mids.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome back, Joe! Whereinthehell have you been?

Man, that guitar at bedroom levels sounds bad ass through the Ampeg. I can't wait to crank it tomorrow. I may have found a strat that I'll keep for awhile. Next time I change strings, I have to see what's in it. I was going from Trower to "Limelight" by Rush to SRV just by changing pickups and fiddling with the tone controls. This one is the real deal.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome back, Joe! Whereinthehell have you been?
> 
> Man, that guitar at bedroom levels sounds bad ass through the Ampeg. I can't wait to crank it tomorrow. I may have found a strat that I'll keep for awhile. Next time I change strings, I have to see what's in it. I was going from Trower to "Limelight" by Rush to SRV just by changing pickups and fiddling with the tone controls. This one is the real deal.



Sounds like a great find man. My health has been bad lately so I don't get on the puter as much now. Anyways the guitar sounds like it is very capable mixing stuff up like that. I luv the flames man. I would definitely play that loud and proud!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hope it's nothing serious. Get well and get back here. You & Marty and Josh are going to have to get sorted out. You've all been scarce around these parts. Well, I know why Marty's busy - he's busy testing tubes (sorry again, man!). Hey, I've got a possible line on another tester. This is from the local acid freak who used to have a shop here. He would take 2 months to "fix" an amp. He fixed them so good that people who actually knew how to fix amps couldn't fix the ones he fixed.


----------



## diesect20022000

RiverRatt said:


> Hope it's nothing serious. Get well and get back here. You & Marty and Josh are going to have to get sorted out. You've all been scarce around these parts. Well, I know why Marty's busy - he's busy testing tubes (sorry again, man!). Hey, I've got a possible line on another tester. This is from the local acid freak who used to have a shop here. He would take 2 months to "fix" an amp. He fixed them so good that people who actually knew how to fix amps couldn't fix the ones he fixed.



he probably has AS too,lol. Yeah i like groove tubes even though my buddy rags on them all the time. I will have to get some and try them out. I did order the E34L's but, i figured those can be my "cheapies". I put a ecc803s in the V2 and a GT 12AX7 (weird though because i STILL can't find that model even ON the GT site but, it was new 4 months ago.. it just says 12ax7 and california tested, no a,b,c or ecc83) in V1 and it sounds great. it's much clearer now and it surprisingly upped the gain quite a bit. Looks like they relabled Svetlanas for the newer DSL's at least though i can't be certain. I hate the new Svetlanas though they sounded nice in the Marshall so i'm pretty excited about the new ones arrival. The Svetlanas aren't the winged "C" they're the cheap rebrands that i'm refering to having a distaste for. Thanks for the recomendations even if they weren't directed toward me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yah, the EL34M's were directed at you. There's a LOT of CP stuff I haven't tried, but I do have hands-on experience with the JJ E34L and the GT EL34M and it's no contest. Like Joe said, the mids are thick and nice. Even Marty recently said that they have some of the Mullard sound to them. I don't know if we mentioned it or not, but the M in EL34M stands for Mullard - they are supposed to be a copy of the Mullard XF2 EL34.


----------



## diesect20022000

RiverRatt said:


> Yah, the EL34M's were directed at you. There's a LOT of CP stuff I haven't tried, but I do have hands-on experience with the JJ E34L and the GT EL34M and it's no contest. Like Joe said, the mids are thick and nice. Even Marty recently said that they have some of the Mullard sound to them. I don't know if we mentioned it or not, but the M in EL34M stands for Mullard - they are supposed to be a copy of the Mullard XF2 EL34.



Okay thanks man, much appreciated. Yeah i've even read in magazines the mullard reissue/types are pretty smooth and rich. I think i will get some of those and just save those for recording. JJ's work for me as a "go to" or workhorse. I like them and they are consistent but, they aren't anything miraculous.


----------



## solarburn

diesect20022000 said:


> Okay thanks man, much appreciated. Yeah i've even read in magazines the mullard reissue/types are pretty smooth and rich. I think i will get some of those and just save those for recording. JJ's work for me as a "go to" or workhorse. I like them and they are consistent but, they aren't anything miraculous.



Don't mistake these for the Mullard RI's though. They are different then the GT 34M's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, my tube bandit showed back up today. Brought me a matched pair of RCA 6L6G tubes - the BIG ones. White logo on the base, smoky glass, they are beautiful. They tested at 105% on his tester (don't know the particulars) and he said they matched good. He also gave me a 3rd one that tested at 95% for a spare as he said one of the 105% ones is a little gassy. He said a 6-hour burn-in would get rid of the gas which he says is there because they are so old. We'll see. I'm pretty happy with this deal, though. He also has a few metal 6L6's that he may want to part with. I wish I could get some pics but I'm doing accounting today and I'm snowed under. I'll try to post some tube porn later.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I've got a possible line on another tester. This is from the local acid freak who used to have a shop here. He would take 2 months to "fix" an amp. He fixed them so good that people who actually knew how to fix amps couldn't fix the ones he fixed.



I thought you had one that you were working on fixing up?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I've got it and it still isn't working. It has a very large Eveready capacitor or battery in it that I suspect may be a good bit of the problem. I just haven't had time or space with 2 amp projects started to get into repairing it yet.


----------



## MM54

Ah, got it! I was wondering if you ever got it working.


----------



## diesect20022000

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Don't mistake these for the Mullard RI's though. They are different then the GT 34M's.



Oh I know though i appreciate the heads up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Does the getter continue to work after the barium or whatever it was coated with is burned off? That guy with the 6L6G's got me to wondering. I don't see how it could, but I've read that it does continue to work for the life of the tube, and I've also read that once it flashes, it's done, so I don't know which to believe. 

Also, the old dude said to "cook" them for about 6 hours before I use them and the one won't be so gassy anymore. How do I "cook" them without using them? The getter won't function at all on standby, will it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

??? ??? ???

Cooking tubes? Like on warm in the oven. Under 200 degrees. Those old style tubes were gassy anyways which is why I don't like them. No matter what you do, the tube is at the mercy of the getter and it may be saturated. The vacuum was not as good as an early 60's tube. That's why a lot of power tubes had two getters.

Bottom line is I'm not too hip on the trade, unless those Compactrons were junk. I thought that there was supposed to be some 12AX7's in the trade?

When the heater is on the getter(s) are working.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's one of 'em. They sound great - nice breakup, a little boomy in the Ampeg but I haven't found a tube yet that isn't.


----------



## MM54

Nice!! I really like G-bottle tubes. Great score.

Does the amp happen to have a tube rectifier? I have a National Union 5U4G that's the same style in my box of tubes to sell.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does the Ampeg have a tube layout chart? If so, what does it call for? 6L6G or GC?


----------



## RiverRatt

It doesn't have a chart, but the chassis is marked "6L6GC". I've left 'em running for about 4 hours now and they are behaving pretty well.

Matt, it's a solid-state recto.


----------



## ashfender150

core said:


> Marshall used a few different valve manufacturers over the years Tesla, Svetlana, Sovtek, Mullard for example but any top EL34 would work for this amp. Tung Sol, RFT, and Winged =C= are some of the better ones out there now. There is old stock available out there if you hunt around. The RFT's like I have above are NOS from the 70's and have been deemed a good buy currently for older valves. Ebay is a good place to start for NOS.
> 
> Here's a great review page on different EL34's EL34 Tube Type Review
> Their top three are:
> Tung Sol
> Siemens / RFT
> Svetlana ( St. Petersburg factory not the current production I believe )



I'm fairly certain his review of "svetlana" tubes were of the current tubes bearing the name "svetlana" because they sell these tubes in their store...? I bought these and I honestly thought they sounded good in my TSL. Huge improvement over the Electro Harmonix's I had previously



RiverRatt said:


> Not the current production Svetlana. The SED Winged C is the real Svetlana, they just can't call it that because New Sensor owns the Svetlana brand name in the US and sells a tube under that name that's manufactured by Reflektor in the Saratov factory. The SED is still made in the St. Petersburg Svetlana factory and is a much better tube. The Groove Tubes EL34M has good mids, too. My experience with the JJ's is that they have decent lows but are a little on the harsh side in the upper mids and highs. If you want to pony up for some RFT EL34's, they will cost roughly twice what the Russian stuff sells for, but they will last longer and have the best mids you can get without getting into the really high-dollar stuff.



so when you guys bash the "svetlana" name, you are bashing this current manufactured tube named "svetlana"....?

is the winged c honestly that much better....?


----------



## nodrogyasmar

I find these discussions very enlightening, if somewhat confusing for my small Scottish brain!
I have a DSL401, had it for about 6 months, it is a 2006 production model. My problem is that I find the tone is pretty harsh and not easy to get a good tone.
When I bought the amp, I asked the vendor if he had if ever changed the tubes, he said no. As far as I am aware, these are the originals, 4xECC83 and 4xEL84.

So, after the preamble, what would you recommend for the preamp and power section to produce a warmer, richer tone?


----------



## RiverRatt

ashfender150 said:


> I'm fairly certain his review of "svetlana" tubes were of the current tubes bearing the name "svetlana" because they sell these tubes in their store...? I bought these and I honestly thought they sounded good in my TSL. Huge improvement over the Electro Harmonix's I had previously.
> so when you guys bash the "svetlana" name, you are bashing this current manufactured tube named "svetlana"....?
> is the winged c honestly that much better....?



I honestly can't tell you what the current Svetlanas sound like. New Sensor now owns the brand-name "Svetlana" and the tubes are no longer made in St. Petersburg. The tubes made in the original St. Petersburg factory are now sold under the SED =C= brand in the US and these are the same as the old Svetlana tubes. I find the =C= tubes to be very musical. They may not be the best power tube made, but they do everything pretty well. If you have a set of Svetlanas that came in your Marshall, check the date code. It should be a 4 digit code, like WW YY. IIRC, If the last two numbes are 03 or earlier, you have the real Svetlana and it is the same as the current SED =C=.


----------



## solarburn

ashfender150 said:


> I'm fairly certain his review of "svetlana" tubes were of the current tubes bearing the name "svetlana" because they sell these tubes in their store...? I bought these and I honestly thought they sounded good in my TSL. Huge improvement over the Electro Harmonix's I had previously
> 
> 
> 
> so when you guys bash the "svetlana" name, you are bashing this current manufactured tube named "svetlana"....?
> 
> is the winged c honestly that much better....?



These are the ones that were very harsh, too much high mids and biting treble as well as little bottom end. They will cut in a mix though...like razor blades when used in a bright amp like my DSL50.

Svetlana EL34


----------



## ashfender150

RiverRatt said:


> I honestly can't tell you what the current Svetlanas sound like. New Sensor now owns the brand-name "Svetlana" and the tubes are no longer made in St. Petersburg. The tubes made in the original St. Petersburg factory are now sold under the SED =C= brand in the US and these are the same as the old Svetlana tubes. I find the =C= tubes to be very musical. They may not be the best power tube made, but they do everything pretty well. If you have a set of Svetlanas that came in your Marshall, check the date code. It should be a 4 digit code, like WW YY. IIRC, If the last two numbes are 03 or earlier, you have the real Svetlana and it is the same as the current SED =C=.



well i dont have the original "svetlana" tubes in my amp anymore.. i actually _purchased_ those svetlana ones [Svetlana EL34].. 


i play evh stuff mainly and its thru my TSL100... they sound good to me, and the guy who reviewed them said they were pretty good also..


----------



## thetragichero

i have the new sensor svetlanas in my dsl (bought them before i knew about toobs)
granted, i'm more of a preamp distortion than power amp distortion kinda guy (mostly play punk/punk-influenced stuff)


----------



## solarburn

ashfender150 said:


> well i dont have the original "svetlana" tubes in my amp anymore.. i actually _purchased_ those svetlana ones [Svetlana EL34]..
> 
> 
> i play evh stuff mainly and its thru my TSL100... they sound good to me, and the guy who reviewed them said they were pretty good also..



Harshest EL34's I ever put in my DSL50. Glad they work in yours. If you like rich mids and want to experiment a bit try some GT 34M's. They really sound great with them Marshall mids. Hell I've tried them all and have about 3 I would use on a regular basis with my current guitars and cabs.

You know as long as you like how your amp sounds with certain tubes enjoy. I always try them out and make my own mind up when it comes to tubes. I just share what I find and try to be factual and not exhibit fanboisms hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yep, like Joe says you gotta try different tubes. You'll never know how much better your amp can sound until you roll some tubes and see what the results are. Grab you a set of Groove Tubes EL34M's or Winged C's sometime and see what you think. Get them from some place that'll let you return them if you don't like them, but I'll bet you will like them. They are strong in all the ways that the current production Svetlana is weak. The =C='s are a little tighter with less bass and stronger mids while the EL34M's are a little looser in the bass but it's a nice sound with more emphasis on the lower mids and a rounder top end. Personally I like the EL34M's better and they will be a more noticeable change from your Svetlanas.


----------



## RiverRatt

nodrogyasmar said:


> I find these discussions very enlightening, if somewhat confusing for my small Scottish brain!
> I have a DSL401, had it for about 6 months, it is a 2006 production model. My problem is that I find the tone is pretty harsh and not easy to get a good tone.
> When I bought the amp, I asked the vendor if he had if ever changed the tubes, he said no. As far as I am aware, these are the originals, 4xECC83 and 4xEL84.
> 
> So, after the preamble, what would you recommend for the preamp and power section to produce a warmer, richer tone?



I can't remember what tubes Marshall was using in the preamp at that time. If they were still using Ei tubes, you already have a good preamp setup. If not, I'd go with a medium-gain Philips of some type in V1 (Mullard, Miniwatt, Amperex, Matsushita, etc...), A strong high-gain Raytheon black plate in V2, any strong 12AX7 in V3 and another strong Raytheon black plate in V4. 

A lot of us like the old Russian 6P14P tubes for an EL84. They are a very musical tube with a little more headroom and to me more chime than most EL84 types I've used. Plus, they aren't expensive at all so you can use that money you save to buy more preamp tubes!!!!


----------



## ashfender150

RiverRatt said:


> Yep, like Joe says you gotta try different tubes. You'll never know how much better your amp can sound until you roll some tubes and see what the results are. Grab you a set of Groove Tubes EL34M's or Winged C's sometime and see what you think. Get them from some place that'll let you return them if you don't like them, but I'll bet you will like them. They are strong in all the ways that the current production Svetlana is weak. The =C='s are a little tighter with less bass and stronger mids while the EL34M's are a little looser in the bass but it's a nice sound with more emphasis on the lower mids and a rounder top end. Personally I like the EL34M's better and they will be a more noticeable change from your Svetlanas.



yeah i know its all about experimentation...

[i have tung-sol preamps already w/ those svetlanas as previously mentioned]

you got me thinking about a couple things, here are some questions[keep in mind i like EVH]:

*what about tung-sol EL34's?
*a whole other dimension to the issue is the bias and breakup of the tubes too right?
*i dont really remember what i have it biased at right now, but i think its like 80+mv? could be wrong... (kind of on the hot side i guess? 90mv is hot from what i remember)
*and as for the "breakup" of the tubes, i ordered normal or "medium" breakup ones.. maybe this next batch i should buy "soft" ones??


----------



## solarburn

Fatter sounding 34. Pretty good sounding. Mids not as rich as the 34M's but it a warmer 34 compared to the Svets meaning there is more bottom end in them and the highs aren't harsh.


----------



## guitar76

I realize this is an elementary question: If I never get my DSL over 3 on volume am I using the power tubes at all? If this is true shouldn't my power tubes last a lot longer than my preamps? 

Many people have said that you don't get to the sweet spot on this amp until volume is 3-4. I'm guessing this is because the power tubes don't kick in until then. Would rolling the gain back enough to get volume to 4 probably get me there? I think the amp sounds good at 2 or 3 the way it is but if it could be better than I'd take that. I guess my band just doesn't play all that loud right now compared to some. Thanks


----------



## solarburn

guitar76 said:


> I realize this is an elementary question: If I never get my DSL over 3 on volume am I using the power tubes at all? If this is true shouldn't my power tubes last a lot longer than my preamps?
> 
> Many people have said that you don't get to the sweet spot on this amp until volume is 3-4. I'm guessing this is because the power tubes don't kick in until then. Would rolling the gain back enough to get volume to 4 probably get me there? I think the amp sounds good at 2 or 3 the way it is but if it could be better than I'd take that. I guess my band just doesn't play all that loud right now compared to some. Thanks



Well its a loud son of a bitch at 4 and 5. You'll have to re-EQ it I'm sure because you will have the amp into its power section. Playing at lower volumes gives you mostly preamp gain so it will sound different with the power tubes in the mix. I would try it and then eq it to taste and see what you think. Its your taste that will dictate how you want it but yes it will sound different with the power section in there and you'll have to adjust to that compared to where you have had it at lower volume.

Oh and tube life depends on the tube itself and how hard you run the power section. The harder/longer you run the power section(tubes)the quicker they go. New tubes can burn out in hours though so keep that in mind from batch to batch even though they get tested. It really can be a crap shoot at times with longevity. I'd expect mine to last a 6 months to a year if I was gigging regularly and that's just a loose estimate...I like to roll mine anyways so I'd change more often than more practical minded players.


----------



## ashfender150

ashfender150 said:


> yeah i know its all about experimentation...
> 
> [i have tung-sol preamps already w/ those svetlanas as previously mentioned]
> 
> you got me thinking about a couple things, here are some questions[keep in mind i like EVH]:
> 
> *what about tung-sol EL34's?
> *a whole other dimension to the issue is the bias and breakup of the tubes too right?
> *i dont really remember what i have it biased at right now, but i think its like 80+mv? could be wrong... (kind of on the hot side i guess? 90mv is hot from what i remember)
> *and as for the "breakup" of the tubes, i ordered normal or "medium" breakup ones.. maybe this next batch i should buy "soft" ones??



ehhhhh?


----------



## solarburn

I usually go with the medium or normal grade...depends on what store offers as the grade. I call it normal break up. As far as bias goes I usually set it around 65% of plate dissipation. Helps if you know your plate voltage then you can run the formula for getting your bias number. Generally speaking I set mine on the cooler side and think it sounds best. I've tried hotter and not found it improved the tone or feel. Just burns your power tubes out faster.

Try your bias at about 76mv to 80mv and see what you think...if you don't like it then set it where you do as long as you don't go too hot. Yes 90mv is hot.


----------



## ashfender150

so if you guys were to rate a few popular EL34's for me in order from best to least.. [*NEW* production models *ONLY*]

OPTIONS:

**JJE34L
**Electro Harmonix
**Svetlana
**Mullard
**Tung-Sol EL34B
**Winged "C" (SED)
**Groove Tubes EL34M (mentioned earlier, not sure where to buy)


----------



## solarburn

ashfender150 said:


> so if you guys were to rate a few popular EL34's for me in order from best to least.. [*NEW* production models *ONLY*]
> 
> OPTIONS:
> 
> **JJE34L
> **Electro Harmonix
> **Svetlana
> **Mullard
> **Tung-Sol EL34B
> **Winged "C" (SED)
> **Groove Tubes EL34M (mentioned earlier, not sure where to buy)



1. GT 34M's- You have to look around now. Don't think they are still making them. I got them rated at 1-3. They have a rating system for how they break up. I think GC's online have them and maybe Sweetwater...

2. EH6CA7's(yes they pop right in a EL34 amp no changes needed, bias the same)

3.JJ34L's

4. Tung Sols

Winged =C='s were over rated to me tone wise per their hype but decent nonetheless. I haven't used the Mullard RI's yet so no opinion. All my EL34 tube rolling was done in a DSL50.


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't know they had quit making them (EL34M). GC and MF both have the full range in stock. $36 a pair ain't bad at all for these tubes. I'm thinking these might be worthwhile to stock up on - 10 years from now you may wish you had.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let's all buy 10 pairs.


----------



## ashfender150

You know, i was playing my amp fairly loud last night and i noticed how shitty it sounds with the EQ pedal bypassed... 

so i guess these svetlana tubes sound good from how I have it EQed...

otherwise they are a bit harsh


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let's all buy 10 pairs.



I don't even own 10 pairs of socks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ashfender150 said:


> You know, i was playing my amp fairly loud last night and i noticed how shitty it sounds with the EQ pedal bypassed...
> 
> so i guess these svetlana tubes sound good from how I have it EQed...
> 
> otherwise they are a bit harsh



Be thankful that you can get a good, usable tone with those Svetlana tubes.

I tried them several years ago and I ended up selling them cheap just to get rid of them. 

Not knocking you, I'm just stating my experience with them.


----------



## Moose Lewis

As the affordable RFT EL34s I was looking at disappeared before I could raise the cash (tight budget), I'm back to being resolved to CP tubes for my Haze 40... something I can buy when the funds become available.

So... I like tight bottom end (not mushy), and as much natural break up without too much harshness in the highs.

Any recommendations? Unfortunately, I can't afford to roll a bunch of tubes, so I'm going to have to live with whatever I go with for awhile. I assume changing tubes means re-biasing as well... which will be done by a tech ($).


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I've been preaching Groove Tubes EL34M's as power tubes for a year or two. Those or SED Winged C's are affordable and IMO the best sounding CP tubes in a Marshall.


----------



## Moose Lewis

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I've been preaching Groove Tubes EL34M's as power tubes for a year or two. Those or SED Winged C's are affordable and IMO the best sounding CP tubes in a Marshall.



So you say the Winged C's are better sounding that the GTM's? Any particular characteristics that fuel your impressions?
Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I like the EL34M's better. The Winged C has more of a flat response with nice, crunchy mids and the GT EL34M is a little more bottom-heavy and seems to compliment my DSL 50 better. Both have much smoother highs and thicker mids and lows than the Russian EL34 varieties that I've tried. I sent Marty my EL34M's to try and he agreed that they have somewhat of a Mullard character to them - pretty high praise from someone who actually owns Mullard EL34's. GT has them made to their specs by Shugang in China. I know GT has a spotty reputation, but I've never heard anyone with anything bad to say about the EL34M. They are a solid tube.


----------



## guitar76

RiverRatt said:


> No, I like the EL34M's better. The Winged C has more of a flat response with nice, crunchy mids and the GT EL34M is a little more bottom-heavy and seems to compliment my DSL 50 better. Both have much smoother highs and thicker mids and lows than the Russian EL34 varieties that I've tried. I sent Marty my EL34M's to try and he agreed that they have somewhat of a Mullard character to them - pretty high praise from someone who actually owns Mullard EL34's. GT has them made to their specs by Shugang in China. I know GT has a spotty reputation, but I've never heard anyone with anything bad to say about the EL34M. They are a solid tube.



I'm looking at a matched pair of EL34M's. MF has the low, medium, and high versions. Can you shed some light on how these choices might affect my sound in a DSL50?


----------



## solarburn

guitar76 said:


> I'm looking at a matched pair of EL34M's. MF has the low, medium, and high versions. Can you shed some light on how these choices might affect my sound in a DSL50?



I bought the 1-3 rating which is the low or early break up. High is suppose to give you cleaner headroom before they break up. Medium is self explanatory.


----------



## black70bird

OK, I am now the owner of a JCM 2000 DSL 50, traded a Fender HR DeVille even for it. I was just going to turn it, but have decided to keep it after playing through it and a custom 210 16 ohm cab. I have read many of the posts here and am looking at Eurotubes DSL50 - Full standard retube kit 
Description: A full retube with a matched pair of the JJ E34L's for an aggressive and punchy sound along with four ECC83S's with one balanced for the phase inverter in V4.
or
Tube Depot Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH with the JJ tubes ECC83s preamp tubes. the difference is about $10 more for the 6CA7s. 
I am leaning to the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH and am looking for a little nudge, I play mostly blues and blues rock.
Thank You
Brian


----------



## RiverRatt

Mine are rated at "2". I don't know if it's really worth worrying about or just a marketing gimmick. I've wondered if it's really a matching system like Mesa uses.


----------



## guitar76

So have you guys found that these EL34Ms mesh well with Marty's DSL50 NOS preamp packs. I'm not sure if he sticks to one combination or not but I know you guys have all rolled different combinations.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good preamp tubes compliment good power tubes. Think of the power tubes as the cake an the pre's as the icing on the cake. If your cake sucks, the icing can only do so much.


----------



## guitar76

RiverRatt said:


> Good preamp tubes compliment good power tubes. Think of the power tubes as the cake an the pre's as the icing on the cake. If your cake sucks, the icing can only do so much.



My "cake" doesn't suck right now. I think the Winged "C"s sound good but I haven't tried anything else either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

black70bird said:


> OK, I am now the owner of a JCM 2000 DSL 50, traded a Fender HR DeVille even for it. I was just going to turn it, but have decided to keep it after playing through it and a custom 210 16 ohm cab. I have read many of the posts here and am looking at Eurotubes DSL50 - Full standard retube kit
> Description: A full retube with a matched pair of the JJ E34L's for an aggressive and punchy sound along with four ECC83S's with one balanced for the phase inverter in V4.
> or
> Tube Depot Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH with the JJ tubes ECC83s preamp tubes. the difference is about $10 more for the 6CA7s.
> I am leaning to the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH and am looking for a little nudge, I play mostly blues and blues rock.
> Thank You
> Brian



Listen to me. You don't want all JJ in that DSL. My standard recommendation for that amp is:

V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise. ($4 dollars extra)
V2-Mullard RI, high gain
V3-EH standard tube
V4-EH high gain

EH 6CA7 Power Tubes get my approval. 

Trust me, this will sound soooo much better than saving $20 and going with JJ's. Also, the balanced tube for the PI (V4) is a bunch on bull shit. I actually use a lop-sided high gain tube for my PI in all of my amps. You can thank me later.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I could be happy using the Winged C's, and was for quite awhile. Sometimes your tubes can be good but improperly biased and sound harsh. The preamp tubes won't be able to really show their character unless they have a good base tone to work from. I think that's one thing we did right back when we were first getting into the preamp tube thread. We all had tried several power tubes and found what worked for us and how to dial it in. When we started rolling preamp tubes, it just got that much better. The first time I heard that Malcolm Young tone coming out of my DSL50 and LP, I knew we had found some magic.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> Listen to me. You don't want all JJ in that DSL. My standard recommendation for that amp is:
> 
> V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise. ($4 dollars extra)
> V2-Mullard RI, high gain
> V3-EH standard tube
> V4-EH high gain
> 
> EH 6CA7 Power Tubes get my approval.
> 
> Trust me, this will sound soooo much better than saving $20 and going with JJ's. Also, the balanced tube for the PI (V4) is a bunch on bull shit. I actually use a lop-sided high gain tube for my PI in all of my amps. You can thank me later.



OK, I am willing to give it a try. The EH and TS tubes available though are 12AX7s not ECC83s, is that correct? Also, the EH have 12AT7 and 12AU7. Just asking as you did not specify. 
Thank You for the info!
Brian


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> OK, I am willing to give it a try. The EH and TS tubes available though are 12AX7s not ECC83s, is that correct? Also, the EH have 12AT7 and 12AU7. Just asking as you did not specify.
> Thank You for the info!
> Brian



ECC83's are 12AX7's. Ecc83's are European designation and the 12AX7 are US.

12AT7 have a lower gain factor(60)instead of 100 from the 12AX7/ECC83. The 12AU7 is even lower...FYI


----------



## black70bird

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ECC83's are 12AX7's. Ecc83's are European designation and the 12AX7 are US.
> 
> 12AT7 have a lower gain factor(60)instead of 100 from the 12AX7/ECC83. The 12AU7 is even lower...FYI



Add another data point, thank you. 
This is what my shopping cart at tube Depot looks like:
Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 EH (matched set) $37.95
Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production Testing : Hi-Gain(+$2.00) $18.95
Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 EH Testing : Standard Test Included $10.95
Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 EH Testing : Hi-Gain (+$2.00) $12.95
Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production Testing : Low Noise and Microphonics (+$4.00) $18.95

Subtotal: $99.75 + $4.95 shipping

I am going to check at the local amp shop, MARS, and see if they have better prices.
Brian


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> Add another data point, thank you.
> This is what my shopping cart at tube Depot looks like:
> Electro-Harmonix 6CA7 EH (matched set) $37.95
> Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production Testing : Hi-Gain(+$2.00) $18.95
> Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 EH Testing : Standard Test Included $10.95
> Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 EH Testing : Hi-Gain (+$2.00) $12.95
> Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production Testing : Low Noise and Microphonics (+$4.00) $18.95
> 
> Subtotal: $99.75 + $4.95 shipping
> 
> I am going to check at the local amp shop, MARS, and see if they have better prices.
> Brian



I bet it will kick ass with that line up hehe. 

I always shop for the best prices too. Doesn't hurt to compare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Perfect order. Sorry for the slow response on the EH tubes, but Solar got you on the right track.


----------



## guitar76

Looking forward to my preamp set that you shipped today Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope they work out for you. I sent you a real nice PI tube. It is a Philips Electrohome from Canada. It is basically an Amperex/Mini Watt design. It is 28-33. If you want, you can roll it in V1 or V2. It is after all a high quality tube that I use in a lot of combos.


----------



## thetragichero

how closely matched should my 6v6s be for my 5e3/tweed deluxe clone?
i got an unmatched set (rca) for super cheap so i'll try them anyway and see what smokes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as a rule, you want them to be within 5mA. Most tube stores match to 3mA or better.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> Perfect order. Sorry for the slow response on the EH tubes, but Solar got you on the right track.



Went down to MARS and talked with them, they did not have the tubes on my list. Very willing to discuss options and their experiences, they are going to go through it for standard $40 fee + what ever they find that needs attention, they will explain why. Saw my shopping list from Tube Depot and said they buy from them also. Have to see what they can do. I also got an email from Marshall and it is a 2006 production year amp.

Brian


----------



## guitar76

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hope they work out for you. I sent you a real nice PI tube. It is a Philips Electrohome from Canada. It is basically an Amperex/Mini Watt design. It is 28-33. If you want, you can roll it in V1 or V2. It is after all a high quality tube that I use in a lot of combos.



So you think the Phillips electrohome is a possibility in V1,V2, or V4? Got the tubes in today already. This is a really busy week so I will probably mess with them this weekend. This will be my first time changing tubes. Do you have any important tips besides the obvious (cool tubes, easy on the sockets)? Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

76-It would be best to try the tubes as I have marked on the boxes. For grins and giggles, you could put the black plate in the PI and the Electrohome in V2. If you like it better, go for it. I just thought I would send you that tube so you could do a little rolling and also, give you some tone options. You could also try the Electrohome in V1 and the Mini Watt in V2.

Go with my line up first, listen to it and then do a little rolling.

For a novice, it's best to turn the amp off and replace tubes. Let the preamp tubes cool down a bit before moving them.


----------



## ashfender150

so since i like EVH, i have a TSL100, i have a custom strat with humbuckers...

which powertube fits me best? the current models i'm considering include:

*GT EL34M
*Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH
*Mullard EL34
*Tung-Sol EL34B
*Winged "C" (SED) EL34



Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Eddie has used the 6CA7 since day one, but the GT EL34M is a good tube as well. I run a set of EH6CA7's in my TSL100 head.


----------



## ashfender150

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Eddie has used the 6CA7 since day one, but the GT EL34M is a good tube as well. I run a set of EH6CA7's in my TSL100 head.



so why is a 6CA7 different?

does it get biased the same?

thetubestore guy's review said "If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you." because of the higher headroom


----------



## MartyStrat54

ashfender150 said:


> so why is a 6CA7 different?
> 
> does it get biased the same?
> 
> thetubestore guy's review said "If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you." because of the higher headroom



The best way I can explain it is that it is designed like a 6L6GC, but the electrical parameters are the same as an EL34. In other words, you get more of a 6L6 sound without having to do any mods to the amp. Does it sound exactly the same as a 6L6? No, but it is close. And yes, the 6CA7 biases up just like an EL34.

As far as the review, I don't take much from them and neither do the regulars on this thread. I mean if you look at that page with all of the reviews, they say for ZZ Top and Early VH, to use the Svetlana EL34. I can't stand those tubes. They say not for 7 string guitars because of the lower bass presence. This is a kind way of saying thin, colorless bass. I would not use the Svetlana's in any amp unless it was super bassy.

Also, Eddie used Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's. I have some nice examples of these. These tubes sound nicer than the EH6CA7's at lower volume, but for the most part, above 5, the tubes sound very similar. The build is almost identical to the Fat Boy. The main difference is the getter chemicals and the vacuum pulled on the tube. Old NOS tubes had really good vacuums.

Power tubes are like speakers. What sounds good to me may not sound good to you. It just takes some time and experimenting to find the tubes that you like the best.


----------



## ashfender150

MartyStrat54 said:


> The best way I can explain it is that it is designed like a 6L6GC, but the electrical parameters are the same as an EL34. In other words, you get more of a 6L6 sound without having to do any mods to the amp. Does it sound exactly the same as a 6L6? No, but it is close. And yes, the 6CA7 biases up just like an EL34.
> 
> As far as the review, I don't take much from them and neither do the regulars on this thread. I mean if you look at that page with all of the reviews, they say for ZZ Top and Early VH, to use the Svetlana EL34. I can't stand those tubes. They say not for 7 string guitars because of the lower bass presence. This is a kind way of saying thin, colorless bass. I would not use the Svetlana's in any amp unless it was super bassy.
> 
> Also, Eddie used Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's. I have some nice examples of these. These tubes sound nicer than the EH6CA7's at lower volume, but for the most part, above 5, the tubes sound very similar. The build is almost identical to the Fat Boy. The main difference is the getter chemicals and the vacuum pulled on the tube. Old NOS tubes had really good vacuums.
> 
> Power tubes are like speakers. What sounds good to me may not sound good to you. It just takes some time and experimenting to find the tubes that you like the best.



yeah, you're right. its hard to tell without having it hooked up in person (i.e. guitar pickups are the same way..)

anyway.. could you compare between the

*Tung-Sol EL34B
*Winged "C" (SED) EL34

which one would you personally choose if you were going for a VH sound


----------



## MartyStrat54

ashfender150 said:


> yeah, you're right. its hard to tell without having it hooked up in person (i.e. guitar pickups are the same way..)
> 
> anyway.. could you compare between the
> 
> *Tung-Sol EL34B
> *Winged "C" (SED) EL34
> 
> which one would you personally choose if you were going for a VH sound



Both are better sounding/built tubes. My gut feeling is that the EL34B would be the better tube for VH. It too has some 6L6 tones at lower, clean volume levels. Sounds more like a 34 when you open it up.


----------



## ashfender150

thanks! ill give one of these a shot in the next month hopefully


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Im using a mid to high gain NOS GE 7025 in V1, a NOS Mullard high-gain in V2, a CP Tong Sol in the tone follower slot and another NOS GE 7025 in the phase inverter slot. I had a set of =c='s for power, but i couldn't get them to bias low enough (89 was as low as I could go with the pots pegged low). I went with JJ EL34L's and have been very happy with them biased medium hot (86).


----------



## DirtySteve

Well, I finally made it through this whole thread and I’m almost halfway through the preamp thread and I’ve really learned a lot. You guys really know your stuff!.. great read!!

I still have a lot to learn and I don’t know what all tubes I want to try yet, but I learned a lot about what to “look out” for. Invaluable and probably saved me from wasting a lot of money. Awesome! 

Am I understanding this right?… that you guys are rolling tubes with the amp on and hot?
…and does rolling tubes mean the same thing as swapping tubes?

Steve


----------



## black70bird

DirtySteve said:


> Well, I finally made it through this whole thread and I’m almost halfway through the preamp thread and I’ve really learned a lot. You guys really know your stuff!.. great read!!
> 
> I still have a lot to learn and I don’t know what all tubes I want to try yet, but I learned a lot about what to “look out” for. Invaluable and probably saved me from wasting a lot of money. Awesome!
> 
> Am I understanding this right?… that you guys are rolling tubes with the amp on and hot?
> …and does rolling tubes mean the same thing as swapping tubes?
> 
> Steve



Dude, no! That would result in burned fingers and a possible short or arcing. Always turn the amp off and allow the tubes to cool before R&Ring (remove & replace). Rolling for my understanding is swapping positions of tubes.

 Brian


----------



## MM54

black70bird said:


> Dude, no! That would result in burned fingers and a possible short or arcing. Always turn the amp off and allow the tubes to cool before R&Ring (remove & replace). Rolling for my understanding is swapping positions of tubes.
> 
> Brian



This.


----------



## solarburn

DirtySteve said:


> Well, I finally made it through this whole thread and I’m almost halfway through the preamp thread and I’ve really learned a lot. You guys really know your stuff!.. great read!!
> 
> I still have a lot to learn and I don’t know what all tubes I want to try yet, but I learned a lot about what to “look out” for. Invaluable and probably saved me from wasting a lot of money. Awesome!
> 
> Am I understanding this right?… that you guys are rolling tubes with the amp on and hot?
> …and does rolling tubes mean the same thing as swapping tubes?
> 
> Steve



Power valves get too hot to change while on standby(not playable but powered up). I roll my preamp valves with my amps while in standby though(not in play mode)but do watch out for hot tubes. I like to keep minimal time in between tube changes as I can. Its easy to lose your frame of reference while roll'n. Yes roll'n means tube swapping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I said earlier, if you are a novice, it is best to power the amp down when rolling. However, a pro tube roller like Solar can roll in Standby mode. As he said, it's quicker and allows a more accurate A/B test.

For a stiff price, there is an A/B tester that holds two tubes and connects to one socket. You can then flip between the A and B tube. None of us bought one. We like doing it the old fashioned way.

Roll them puppies!


----------



## chuckharmonjr

For sure get yourself a pair of cloth gloves of some sort. Just like the light bulbs for new car headlights...getting skin oil on them by touching them with your bare hands is a bad news scenario. Where the oil is gets hot(ter), the glass eventually pops and instant failed tube.


----------



## MM54

chuckharmonjr said:


> For sure get yourself a pair of cloth gloves of some sort. Just like the light bulbs for new car headlights...getting skin oil on them by touching them with your bare hands is a bad news scenario. Where the oil is gets hot(ter), the glass eventually pops and instant failed tube.



Touching tubes is fine - wost that can happen is you wipe off the logo. They get nowhere as hot as halogen bulbs, so they're fine to touch (unless you have like... greasy crud all over you, but if you do, why are you changing tubes?)

With a glove, you run a higher risk of dropping them


----------



## solarburn

Yeah clean hands is best but the tube going bad cause you got a bit of oil on them doesn't pan out. Never have I had a problem from handling them with my hands. I've learned to get them preamp tubes out with my bare hands and not get hurt/burned but at times I use an ankle sock I have sitting next to the amp and pull a tube with that on. I haven't dropped any. I have dropped them holding them with my hands cold. Thats just clumsiness. They still worked. I would worry more about shaking or bumping them while they are hot as in that state I think they may get damaged..possibly.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the filament is more fragile when it's hot. I've had some EL34's that would raise a good blister if you touched them bare handed. I keep a sock around, too.

I learned once that if you have a piece of paper sitting around that's been through a laser printer and you pick up a hot tube with it, it will copy the toner onto the tube. Might be an interesting way to re-label a hot EL34. 

"Honey, can you come help me for a second?" 

"No, I'm waiting for my EL34's to get hot enough that the toner will stick!" 

"Oh. More tube shit..."


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think the filament is more fragile when it's hot. I've had some EL34's that would raise a good blister if you touched them bare handed. I keep a sock around, too.
> 
> I learned once that if you have a piece of paper sitting around that's been through a laser printer and you pick up a hot tube with it, it will copy the toner onto the tube. Might be an interesting way to re-label a hot EL34.
> 
> "Honey, can you come help me for a second?"
> 
> "No, I'm waiting for my EL34's to get hot enough that the toner will stick!"
> 
> "Oh. More tube shit..."



El84's get real hot too! I found out by accident bumping into them while pulling from my NT. Youch! When I roll the power tubes I let them cool unless I really, really am having to judge between 2 dif sets that are close. I also find that my ears get fatigued and I need a break from roll'n. Its best to come back later when that happens.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I was lucky. I just put the tubes in the way Marty suggested and instant gratification.

Joe, I hope you get to feeling better.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I was lucky. I just put the tubes in the way Marty suggested and instant gratification.
> 
> Joe, I hope you get to feeling better.



Thanx so much T&L! I am getting better each day! Yeah Marty has helped me immensely getting me started and roll'n along with me. We really came up with some good combinations. Course we had help from other rollers too! Its really been a blast tube rolling with all here too. I enjoy watching the new guys pick this stuff up and run with it. Tubes can make a difference. I have to say after rolling all positions V1 is my favorite and most responsive slot to roll. V2 is important too but V1 tells me alot right off.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> As I said earlier, if you are a novice, it is best to power the amp down when rolling. However, a pro tube roller like Solar can roll in Standby mode. As he said, it's quicker and allows a more accurate A/B test.
> 
> For a stiff price, there is an A/B tester that holds two tubes and connects to one socket. You can then flip between the A and B tube. None of us bought one. We like doing it the old fashioned way.
> 
> Roll them puppies!



I am really leery of sticking my hand inside something that is capable of enough voltage to kill me. That being said, I have never changed tubes on a Marshall. So I have no idea what it looks like with the back off to get at the tubes. And yes I have burned myself inside a Fender that had been just turned off, experience is a great motivator! My tube shipment should be delivered tomorrow, Marty's recommendation for my DSL 50.


Can't wait! Brian


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> I am really leery of sticking my hand inside something that is capable of enough voltage to kill me. That being said, I have never changed tubes on a Marshall. So I have no idea what it looks like with the back off to get at the tubes. And yes I have burned myself inside a Fender that had been just turned off, experience is a great motivator! My tube shipment should be delivered tomorrow, Marty's recommendation for my DSL 50.
> 
> 
> Can't wait! Brian



Be safe first. What I know is what I've learned from the experts here. I only will do certain things with an amp. Anything beyond roll'n tubes and biasing goes to a tech. I won't mess around with unsafe practices. I'm confident I'm ok in rolling like I do. I have a solid line drawn though beyond that. I fear it and respect it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hope your tubes work out for you, Blackbird.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> El84's get real hot too! I found out by accident bumping into them while pulling from my NT. Youch! When I roll the power tubes I let them cool unless I really, really am having to judge between 2 dif sets that are close. I also find that my ears get fatigued and I need a break from roll'n. Its best to come back later when that happens.



Speaking of EL84 tubes, Marty you need to hook me up with a pair of those 6P14P's if you have any left. I picked up a Crate Vintage Club 20 today for $50. This little amp blows that Pico Valve out of the water, and probably out of the house. Great sounding little amp! It even has a gold faceplate and Marshall knobs on it. I'm seriously thinking about using it as a head to drive that 1966 2x12 cab. If my homebrew 2xEL84 build comes out OK I'll probably put it in a Marshall head box but this thing is great to play with in the meantime. I've been wanting a grab-n-go combo for awhile. After I clean off the rust, scrub the tolex and blow out the mouse turds I think it'll be a keeper!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of EL84 tubes, Marty you need to hook me up with a pair of those 6P14P's if you have any left. I picked up a Crate Vintage Club 20 today for $50. This little amp blows that Pico Valve out of the water, and probably out of the house. Great sounding little amp! It even has a gold faceplate and Marshall knobs on it. I'm seriously thinking about using it as a head to drive that 1966 2x12 cab. If my homebrew 2xEL84 build comes out OK I'll probably put it in a Marshall head box but this thing is great to play with in the meantime. I've been wanting a grab-n-go combo for awhile. After I clean off the rust, scrub the tolex and blow out the mouse turds I think it'll be a keeper!



Alan have you tried these yet? I'm curious how they may compare to our Russian NOS 6P14P's...

Preferred Series 7189 (Premium EL84)

You got that amp for $50 and its in working order? No issues? What's it have 2 El84's and 2 12AX7's? You are a savvy buyer hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Try 2 EL84's and THREE 12AX7's. I don't know if the second 12AX7 is a preamp tube or reverb driver, but I'd suspect it's a solid state reverb circuit since there's no transformer. It's a sweet sounding little amp. I like it better than that V16 Palomino Crate I used to have. This one is a monster. 

I did look at those tubes, and you can get the real thing like Marty had for less money. Even Tubemonger has them for $18 per tube. You can get them direct from Russia on eBay for under $10 per tube but I hate buying from international sellers. No offense to anyone, I just don't trust the postal system that well.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Try 2 EL84's and THREE 12AX7's. I don't know if the second 12AX7 is a preamp tube or reverb driver, but I'd suspect it's a solid state reverb circuit since there's no transformer. It's a sweet sounding little amp. I like it better than that V16 Palomino Crate I used to have. This one is a monster.
> 
> I did look at those tubes, and you can get the real thing like Marty had for less money. Even Tubemonger has them for $18 per tube. You can get them direct from Russia on eBay for under $10 per tube but I hate buying from international sellers. No offense to anyone, I just don't trust the postal system that well.



The ones at tubemonger aren't matched and I don't have a tester or I would have got some of those and tried. Also they are more current NOS(1990's). Marty's are 1967 stock so they may sound different...Anyways I won't do international either.

I think I will try some next time I need some EL84's. Then we'll know. That amp sounds like a good score then. Good job!


----------



## solarburn

Check this out guys. I was following another thread and someone posted this info up.

From Eurotubes:
What's new!

10/21/10 - A little over a year ago we asked our good friends at JJ Electronic to build us a low power EL84 and they agreed to do it! It's not an easy task to build a tube that has never been built, but JJ has proven they are the people to do it. We have been testing different revisions of the brand new JJ EL844 since January of 2010 and it is ready!

We talked about several tubes that would be welcome additions and we have to tell you, JJ has been VERY busy! We are really happy with the way the EL844 has turned out! It's a wonderful sounding tube and will dissipate right at 9 watts rather than 12 watts which will be a great option for players who want to get to the sweet spot at a little lower volume.

As for the other two tubes, that's a secret! Eurotubes is announcing all three new tubes with a full page ad in the January issue of Guitar Player Magazine which will hit the stands and arrive to subscribers on November the 27th. 

We will have all of these tubes in stock and ready to go by 11-15-10 when we will fill you in on everything!

Here is a sneak peek of the ad!
euro-m


----------



## solarburn

I wonder how that will effect cathode biased amps like mine. May not be able to use them without a bias fix/mod.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

Wow...if this didn't expose Bob's lack of knowledge when it comes to valves and how they operate in an amplifier circuit. Yet everyone seems to like to swing from the guys nutz. 

Output power is not a function of the valves. It's a function of B+ voltage applied to a load impedance and the current that said voltage draws through said load. The valves just control this load current (P = V^2 / Load Impedance in Ohms...where in this equation do you see ANY reference to valve type or plate dissipation rating? ).

All the dissipation rating dictates is what the minimum safe load impedance a valve can work into at a given B+ voltage. With the right voltage/load combination, you can actually get more output power using valves with a low plate dissipation rating (yes there is a limit to this as with all things and the plate dissipation rating sets that limit).

Saying that JJ is coming out with a "lower powered valve" just indicates to me that the plate isn't gonna be able to dissipate as much power. But as has been said before...plate dissipation is in no way shape or form indicative of the amount of power you can get from a valve. With the correct plate load you can still pull the same amount of output power out of those lower dissipation valves.

Again...another bullshit selling tactic to make people think that they're getting a "super valve" that can somehow allow them to get power valve overdrive at lower volumes. That myth has been officially...busted. 

Yet another reason to stay way from Eurotubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Jon, I know this isn't the place, but during my travels today I found an EICO Resistance Capacitance Comparator Bridge test unit. It can test capacitance, inductance and resistance when compared to a known external example. Would I be able to identify the capacitance of a given capacitor with this unit? I'm still not sure what all this means, but it sounds like a primitive LCR meter. Dude wanted $20 for it. I can get a Chinese LCR meter off ebay for $10 plus shipping. It was nice looking. He also had an oscilloscope but I believe it's only use was testing TV CRT's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Time for the Saturday report: I brought home a Bogen turntable & a Knight Safari 1 CB radio (all tube) for $45, and an Ibanez EX series guitar and HS case for $20 with a broken headstock. I've already swapped out the neck on the Ibanez for one from a EX-1500 and it's sweet. I haven't looked in the Knight CB yet, but I know there's at least 1 6BQ5 in there, and maybe a 12AX7 or 3. Check out what was in the Bogen - this was worth the cost of admission. I got a pair of Tung-Sol 5881 tubes!!!!!! - the only *real *US 5881 ever made. The player was labeled for 6L6 tubes so maybe these have some life left in them. Here they are with the 5U4GB and the two CBS 6SL7 pre's. Ain't they purty? Can you say "Tweed Champ"?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Time for the Saturday report: I brought home a Bogen turntable & a Knight Safari 1 CB radio (all tube) for $45, and an Ibanez EX series guitar and HS case for $20 with a broken headstock. I've already swapped out the neck on the Ibanez for one from a EX-1500 and it's sweet. I haven't looked in the Knight CB yet, but I know there's at least 1 6BQ5 in there, and maybe a 12AX7 or 3. Check out what was in the Bogen - this was worth the cost of admission. I got a pair of Tung-Sol 5881 tubes!!!!!! - the only *real *US 5881 ever made. The player was labeled for 6L6 tubes so maybe these have some life left in them. Here they are with the 5U4GB and the two CBS 6SL7 pre's. Ain't they purty? Can you say "Tweed Champ"?



Better than a Paris Hilton sex video. Love those 5881's. 

Damn I love old shit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, like Paris Hilton, it's all bling. The one on the left is on the weak side. I'm still going to give them a go in the Ampeg. If you got Paris Hilton in the house, you've at least got to give her a chance on the casting couch.


----------



## DirtySteve

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of EL84 tubes, Marty you need to hook me up with a pair of those 6P14P's if you have any left.



I'm disappointed that the 6P14P didn’t work well in my Class 5. I know there’s one other person that didn’t like it the C5 either. In fact he warned me, but the way you guys talk about it and all the reviews I’ve read, I thought it must be the C5, and not the tube. It lowered the volume and gain and it took away all the aggression and everything that makes the Class 5 what it is. I tried it in my Epi Valve Jr and though it sounded much better in there, and I think I get it now, but it's still not really my cup of tea. 
I'd like to find an el84 with the same charactoristics of the CP Sovtek, only a little fuller sounding overall. I have no idea what that might be.(???)

I believe I bought one of the last 2 Marty had. If you need it, let me know. I'm sure we could work something out. I'd much rather it get put to good use instead of me hanging onto it on the chance I _might_ find a use for it down the road. I don't think I put more than about 3 hrs on it, if that.


Steve


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry to hear that DirtySteve. I liked that tube in every amp I've tried it in, but I've never owned a Class 5. I'm afraid to recommend anything now. 

I got a Mullard EL84 out of a CB transceiver this weekend but I haven't tested it yet. I have no use for a single EL84 and was planning on selling it if it tests OK. I'm still trying to get my tester calibrated right. It's reading way low. If you're interested, I'll probably have it going by tonight. I'll let you know if it's good.


----------



## solarburn

DirtySteve said:


> I'm disappointed that the 6P14P didn’t work well in my Class 5. I know there’s one other person that didn’t like it the C5 either. In fact he warned me, but the way you guys talk about it and all the reviews I’ve read, I thought it must be the C5, and not the tube. It lowered the volume and gain and it took away all the aggression and everything that makes the Class 5 what it is. I tried it in my Epi Valve Jr and though it sounded much better in there, and I think I get it now, but it's still not really my cup of tea.
> I'd like to find an el84 with the same charactoristics of the CP Sovtek, only a little fuller sounding overall. I have no idea what that might be.(???)
> 
> I believe I bought one of the last 2 Marty had. If you need it, let me know. I'm sure we could work something out. I'd much rather it get put to good use instead of me hanging onto it on the chance I _might_ find a use for it down the road. I don't think I put more than about 3 hrs on it, if that.
> 
> 
> Steve



Try other current production EL84's out first. That will be more cost effective than going for NOS 84's if you so choose. Have you tried JJ, Mullard, TAD yet? If you like Sovtec stick with it but man I can't stand the sterileness of them in 3 amps I've used. 2 of those amps were non master volume too. I liked the TADS but my Monza ate 1 of the 2. JJ's sound good to me in 2 of the EL84 amps I had/have. I had to try tubes out though and yes that means spending a lil' money. Good luck finding one that you like.

Right now I'm using RFT EL84's in the Monza and I had them in the NT. They sound the best to me and are taking everything those amps dish out for months now. The Monza I find can be hard on tubes. DR Z squeezes all the power he can out of a 20 watter and believe me that amp sounds huge. Huge!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry to hear that DirtySteve. I liked that tube in every amp I've tried it in, but I've never owned a Class 5. I'm afraid to recommend anything now.
> 
> I got a Mullard EL84 out of a CB transceiver this weekend but I haven't tested it yet. I have no use for a single EL84 and was planning on selling it if it tests OK. I'm still trying to get my tester calibrated right. It's reading way low. If you're interested, I'll probably have it going by tonight. I'll let you know if it's good.



Ooh! Hope its strong.


----------



## DirtySteve

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Try other current production EL84's out first. That will be more cost effective than going for NOS 84's if you so choose. Have you tried JJ, Mullard, TAD yet? If you like Sovtec stick with it but man I can't stand the sterileness of them in 3 amps I've used. 2 of those amps were non master volume too. I liked the TADS but my Monza ate 1 of the 2. JJ's sound good to me in 2 of the EL84 amps I had/have. I had to try tubes out though and yes that means spending a lil' money. Good luck finding one that you like.
> 
> Right now I'm using RFT EL84's in the Monza and I had them in the NT. They sound the best to me and are taking everything those amps dish out for months now. The Monza I find can be hard on tubes. DR Z squeezes all the power he can out of a 20 watter and believe me that amp sounds huge. Huge!



Thanks Solarburn, that is good advice and is the sensible way to go. Problem is I've already done that.  no worries! I guess I’ve mostly only talked about these things in the Class 5 "touch of class" thread and a little in the preamp thread. Let me give you some background info here because I’ve been through this thread (finally) and I’ve read all your posts and I know you know what your talking about. (sorry if it gets long)

I got my Class 5 in June after being on back order since March. I have a box full of CP tubes I’ve collected over a few years and I started swapping them around. I was hoping to get a little bit more gain and tighten things up some. I tried Sovtek, JJ, TAD & NS Mullard ri el84s, as well as Sovtek WA, WC, & LPS, Tongsol ri, Mullard ri, EH, JJ & Penta preamp tubes, and tried them in every combination I could think of. I have never liked the CP Sovtek before in any other amp, and always found JJs to be the best sounding CP el84, but the Sovtek has been the best for me in the Class 5. 
The combination that I found worked for me was a Mullard ri in V1, a Tungsol ri in V2 (or vice versa) and a CP Sovtek EL84. It was ok but it wasn't great…

...Then I found (and joined) this forum and the Class 5 “A touch of class” thread had just been started. I posted my tube swapping experiences there and before long we talked about NOS tubes. I was advised to get with Marty if I was interested in some NOS tubes (thanks DSL100Dude), so eventually I did. I told him what I was trying to do and I also posted on the preamp tube thread. (I was more concerned with preamp) The recommendations were the Russian Military el84, a high gain Phillips Miniwatt for V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black plate for V2 so those are what I went with. The preamp tubes were great and did just what I wanted. I'm very happy with them. 

Once I realized the Russian el84 wasn't going to work I went through all of my CP el84s again and the last time I opened her up I put the Sovtek back in but I also swapped V1 & 2. and I'll be damned if it didn't get tighter and even a little higher gain. Wow!!

So, as it stands right now, I love my tone and I've never been happier with an amp, but just like all of us here, I think it could be a little better and the only thing I would like change is I want a little thicker, fuller tone without losing anything I have now. I don't know if that's possible, but now I‘ve been bitten by the NOS bug and I‘m going to have to try. 

...and if that ain't enough, now I have a second Class 5 that I want to set up completely different. I'll save that for another time.

If this is too much information I appologize but sometimes I can't help over explaining things!

Steve


----------



## solarburn

Yeah that happens. I have used many different combinations and ended up with a few I really like to use. Thing is I don't rely on just one set to provide all my tones cause my ears change or I just want to tweak some. I say if you have found the Sovtecs to be best in that amp then you have a winner. We won't deride you...much hehe. You know I kid. I always say use what you like best and you have done the footwork to establish that. Good job and yes it takes some coin to find out. Worth it IMHO though.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

So...a little more information on this so-called "low power EL84" from Eurotubes/JJ USA...

In looking at the data sheet for them they are rated for a 300V plate/screen voltage, 9 watts plate dissipation valve. Coming from other sources who are more educated than I am when it comes to obsolete valves this is nothing more than a clone of an EL83. However, JJ is calling it the EL844...for what reason I have no idea. But there's nothing new about this valve...they're just calling it something different.


----------



## black70bird

Anyone know anything about 6P3S tubes? From the ad:
"6P3S is an extra durable output beam tetrode tube used in low frequency amplifiers. It is equivalent to 6L6GT/6L6/6L6GC/5881."

I am not familiar with this tube or the claim of equivalency to a 6L6.

Thanx


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't mess with the 6P3S tubes - they are not subs for 6L6GCs. They are only rated at around 250 volts. The plate voltage on the Fender Super that I had was right at 490v., almost double the 6P3S rating.

It is equivalent to a 6L6/5881 in the fact that it is an octal power tube and the pinout is the same, but that's about it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Now if you want to try some to fry, be my guest.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You want the 6N3C Russian tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

See this site for conversions.

''GSTube.com''. Tubes, sockets etc. Tubes.


----------



## black70bird

[


MartyStrat54 said:


> See this site for conversions.
> 
> ''GSTube.com''. Tubes, sockets etc. Tubes.



Got the 6CA7s in and biased, along with the preamp tubes. The DSL 50 is a tone monster now!
I have:
V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise
V2-Raytheon BP
V3-EH standard tube
V4-EH high gain

EH 6CA7 Power Tubes biased at 45, has anyone tried higher or lower bias settings. What was the result if you did.


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> [
> 
> Got the 6CA7s in and biased, along with the preamp tubes. The DSL 50 is a tone monster now!
> I have:
> V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise
> V2-Raytheon BP
> V3-EH standard tube
> V4-EH high gain
> 
> EH 6CA7 Power Tubes biased at 45, has anyone tried higher or lower bias settings. What was the result if you did.



Cool man. Glad to hear it changed for the better. I ran my 6CA7's at around 37mv. I try to get as long as life as I can out of them as well as get the best tone bias number my ears can detect hehe. I run my power tubes at 65 to 70% of plate dissipation.


----------



## MM54

My 6CA7's are around 66% in my 4500, and about 68 or 69% in the ML100 (I got a rather hot quad and that's actually as low as they go ). All sound killer


----------



## black70bird

MM54 said:


> My 6CA7's are around 66% in my 4500, and about 68 or 69% in the ML100 (I got a rather hot quad and that's actually as low as they go ). All sound killer



Dialed the bias back to 40 with no discernible degradation of tone. It did seem to develop a slight hum in standby. Is that possible just from adjusting the bias?

As always, thank you for your input!


----------



## MartyStrat54

In Standby, just the tubes heaters are on. There is no audio signal going through the tubes. The hum is being generated somewhere within the amp.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt, sounds like your fond of the TS 5881's. Have you compared them to the Sylvania 6L6WGB (also Tung Sol made I believe). If so, any thoughts or comments?


----------



## cagamp1

black70bird said:


> Dialed the bias back to 40 with no discernible degradation of tone. It did seem to develop a slight hum in standby. Is that possible just from adjusting the bias?
> 
> As always, thank you for your input!



Gotta agree with Marty...your hum is from elsewhere and stanby just keeps you warm. And if your plates over 450V, 37 or 38mA might just be your target current.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

+1 on the hum being elsewhere. The only two supplies that should be active in standby are the heater and bias supplies.

Is this a hum that's coming through the speaker? Or is it coming from the amp itself? Sounds like PT hum to me.


----------



## black70bird

Wilder Amplification said:


> +1 on the hum being elsewhere. The only two supplies that should be active in standby are the heater and bias supplies.
> 
> Is this a hum that's coming through the speaker? Or is it coming from the amp itself? Sounds like PT hum to me.



The hum is coming from the amp itself, not through the speakers. I even unplugged the cab to make sure. It is not loud, just evident, and there is a small amount of vibration when you put your hand on it. It sounds great with the new tube setup, thanks again for the recommendations Marty! It is going to MARS amp repair for a checkout as I am now planning on keeping it. I traded a Fender HR DeVille even for it. 

Thanks again for all the good advice!


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> RiverRatt, sounds like your fond of the TS 5881's. Have you compared them to the Sylvania 6L6WGB (also Tung Sol made I believe). If so, any thoughts or comments?



No, I haven't. These are the first old 5881s I've gotten. I wish the pair had been good so that I could try them in my Ampeg. It seems to respond to tube changes better than my other 6L6 amps. 

The 5881s sound a little more aggressive than any 6L6 I've used - almost like a cross between a 6L6 and a 6V6 but with the tighter low end of an EL34. I really do like this tube.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

black70bird said:


> The hum is coming from the amp itself, not through the speakers. I even unplugged the cab to make sure. It is not loud, just evident, and there is a small amount of vibration when you put your hand on it. It sounds great with the new tube setup, thanks again for the recommendations Marty! It is going to MARS amp repair for a checkout as I am now planning on keeping it. I traded a Fender HR DeVille even for it.
> 
> Thanks again for all the good advice!



Yeah that's the PT humming. There's a guy here on the forum that had a humming PT. He sent it in to Heyboer and they discovered that the manufacturer didn't varnish dip the transformer. They ended up doing it for a very reasonable price and that cured his PT hum. You might wanna look into that as some of the PTs in newer Marshalls are known to hum.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are a few oddball tubes I picked up Friday at one of the local antique malls. 3 for $5 and maybe they work.

6W6GT - fairly close to a 6V6. I thought I'd throw it at the PicoValve and see what happens.








Pair of 5Y3GTs. Left is RCA, right is Tung-Sol:





Lafayette 6V6GT. I don't know who made this one - I don't have another like it. It has strange metal spacers on the top mica.





Last was this tube. A metal RCA 6V6. I've never used a metal tube before. As long as it tests OK for leaks and shorts, it should be good to try in an amp, right? I don't think I like not being able to see the plates.


----------



## MM54

I have a bunch of metal tubes, none useful in amps (if I remember correctly... I may go look shortly) and there *is* something odd about them. As long as they test good I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I still don't trust my tester for gain readings, but it was good for leaks & shorts. It doesn't sound bad at all. I also tried the 6W6GT in the Pico. It redplated within seconds. I thought it was close enough in specs to the 6V6GT that it would be OK. FWIW I loved the tone while it was going. 

There's an old dude around here who says he has a bunch of 6L6 metal tubes. I don't know if they are worth trying or not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So is the Sylvania 6W6GT really an RCA since it has the octagonal logo?

Good to see an RCA and a Tung-Sol side by side. I notice that the RCA has "USA" on the top of the logo. The acid etch is wider than the TS and the logo is continuous whereas the TS has a break in the logo (see gap on right side). However, these differences are not always present when comparing an RCA and a TS side by side.


----------



## RiverRatt

The internals on the 6W6 look kinda Tung-Sol'ish to me, but they could be RCA. Their construction is usually more similar than the other companies. I don't think Sylvania made it either way.


----------



## black70bird

Wilder Amplification said:


> +1 on the hum being elsewhere. The only two supplies that should be active in standby are the heater and bias supplies.
> 
> Is this a hum that's coming through the speaker? Or is it coming from the amp itself? Sounds like PT hum to me.



Which side is the PT on in a DSL 50? The preamp tube side or power tube side. The transformer by the power tubes is where the hum is coming from. If I turn the volume up on the A channel (5) you can hear it through the speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's the output transformer. If the OPT has been run for a long time into an impedance mismatch, it could have caused the hum you hear now.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's the output transformer. If the OPT has been run for a long time into an impedance mismatch, it could have caused the hum you hear now.



So the fix is to replace the OPT? I do not like noise.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's the output transformer. If the OPT has been run for a long time into an impedance mismatch, it could have caused the hum you hear now.



That is NOT the OT humming. The OT doesn't deal with a constant 50/60Hz signal like the PT does, which makes it impossible for an OT to have a mechanical hum...especially when the amp is in standby mode when there's no current flowing through the OT.

It is the POWER transformer humming. I mentioned earlier that some of Marshall's PTs do this because the company who made it apparently doesn't laquer dip them.

There's a guy here on the forum that had an issue with this. He sent his PT to Heyboer in which they discovered that they never laquer dipped the PT. For a reasonable price they laquer dipped it for him and it cured the hum issue.


----------



## black70bird

Wilder Amplification said:


> That is NOT the OT humming. The OT doesn't deal with a constant 50/60Hz signal like the PT does, which makes it impossible for an OT to have a mechanical hum...especially when the amp is in standby mode when there's no current flowing through the OT.
> 
> It is the POWER transformer humming. I mentioned earlier that some of Marshall's PTs do this because the company who made it apparently doesn't laquer dip them.
> 
> There's a guy here on the forum that had an issue with this. He sent his PT to Heyboer in which they discovered that they never laquer dipped the PT. For a reasonable price they laquer dipped it for him and it cured the hum issue.



So the power transformer is located right behind the the power and standby switches and next to the power tubes. That is the one that I can feel and hear humming. 

I am not interested in trying to fix a defective part. So replacement should resolve the hum issue, correct.

Thank you
Brian


----------



## Wilder Amplification

black70bird said:


> So the power transformer is located right behind the the power and standby switches and next to the power tubes. That is the one that I can feel and hear humming.
> 
> I am not interested in trying to fix a defective part. So replacement should resolve the hum issue, correct.
> 
> Thank you
> Brian



Yes that is the power transformer. The Output Transformer is clear over on the input jack end of the chassis.

If you replace it with a factory replacement there's a chance that one will hum as well so you may wanna consider going aftermarket. The only two suppliers of aftermarket DSL/TSL trannies currently is Mercury Magnetics along with JCMJMP here on the forums.


----------



## black70bird

Wilder Amplification said:


> Yes that is the power transformer. The Output Transformer is clear over on the input jack end of the chassis.
> 
> If you replace it with a factory replacement there's a chance that one will hum as well so you may wanna consider going aftermarket. The only two suppliers of aftermarket DSL/TSL trannies currently is Mercury Magnetics along with JCMJMP here on the forums.



I build my own pickups and lacquer dip some of them. Is it the same process with a transformer? If that is the case, I already have a setup to perform the process. Anyone with experience have some pointers. As I plan on replacing it anyway, what do I need to avoid doing?

Thank You


----------



## Wilder Amplification

black70bird said:


> I build my own pickups and lacquer dip some of them. Is it the same process with a transformer? If that is the case, I already have a setup to perform the process. Anyone with experience have some pointers. As I plan on replacing it anyway, what do I need to avoid doing?
> 
> Thank You



As I'm not a transformer manufacturer I have no idea as to how they do it. You might want to ask some of the people on the Music Electronics Forum as some of them have made their own transformers. Here's the link to the forum -

Music Electronics Forum

Register there and post up a question in the "Theory & Design" subforum under the "Guitar Amps" section.


----------



## cagamp1

black70bird said:


> I build my own pickups and lacquer dip some of them. Is it the same process with a transformer? If that is the case, I already have a setup to perform the process. Anyone with experience have some pointers. As I plan on replacing it anyway, what do I need to avoid doing?
> 
> Thank You




I remember reading somewhere about tansformer sealing processes. The whole transformer is impregnated with varnish, lacquer or epoxy through a process that actully pulls the sealant through the coils and laminations. It is then cured (baked dry). Your pickup lacquer dip seems to be different.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I still don't trust my tester for gain readings, but it was good for leaks & shorts. It doesn't sound bad at all. I also tried the 6W6GT in the Pico. It redplated within seconds. I thought it was close enough in specs to the 6V6GT that it would be OK. FWIW I loved the tone while it was going.
> 
> There's an old dude around here who says he has a bunch of 6L6 metal tubes. I don't know if they are worth trying or not.




Hey RiverRatt

Neither 6V6, 6W6 nor 6L6 are interchangeable. They may all be beam power tubes with the same base but the internals in each work differently. That 6W6 for instance it uses more than 3 times the heater current than a 6V6. I'm surprised more stuff didn't "redplate".

Why didn't anyone else holler at RiverRatt before he did that? When substituting tubes, you need to open a book or ask questions first? There are only a few subs for the 6V6...just other 6V6 types along with 5871, 7184 and 7408.

Hope this helps.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I still don't trust my tester for gain readings, but it was good for leaks & shorts. It doesn't sound bad at all. I also tried the 6W6GT in the Pico. It redplated within seconds. I thought it was close enough in specs to the 6V6GT that it would be OK. FWIW I loved the tone while it was going.
> 
> There's an old dude around here who says he has a bunch of 6L6 metal tubes. I don't know if they are worth trying or not.





MartyStrat54 said:


> So is the Sylvania 6W6GT really an RCA since it has the octagonal logo?
> 
> Good to see an RCA and a Tung-Sol side by side. I notice that the RCA has "USA" on the top of the logo. The acid etch is wider than the TS and the logo is continuous whereas the TS has a break in the logo (see gap on right side). However, these differences are not always present when comparing an RCA and a TS side by side.




Some info on those tubes posted. All of them are RCA manufactured. The octogon is a dead giveaway. The octogaon is an old dating system used by RCA. The long and short breaks in the octogon actually tell a story about the tube, manufacturing wise.

Another tidbit: RCA made tubes for GE, Sylvania, and other companies...and so on...and Sylvania made tubes for RCA, GE and other companies...and so on...and this practice encompasses all countries and their manufacturers. They all ordered, bought and sold through each other and to each other.

By the way, I did a little research because I couldn't remember, but Tungsol was the only manufacturer for the 5881. They sold 5881 tubes to other manufactures with different brand labels in some cases. Some other manufactures did produce the 6L6WGB or 6L6WGB/5881 tubes which is an equivilent.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> Hey RiverRatt
> 
> Neither 6V6, 6W6 nor 6L6 are interchangeable. They may all be beam power tubes with the same base but the internals in each work differently. That 6W6 for instance it uses more than 3 times the heater current than a 6V6. I'm surprised more stuff didn't "redplate".
> 
> Why didn't anyone else holler at RiverRatt before he did that? When substituting tubes, you need to open a book or ask questions first? There are only a few subs for the 6V6...just other 6V6 types along with 5871, 7184 and 7408.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Well, the whole reason for the oddball power tubes is that thetragichero and me recently bought the new Jet City PicoValve amp head. It's designed by Andy Marshall, the guy behind the UniValve. The whole premise is that you are supposed to be able to use any power tube without re-biasing. We're kinda throwing odd stuff at it just to see what happens. So far, it has accepted about as many tubes as have redplated or sounded horrible. I didn't mean to imply that the 6W6 was a direct swap with the 6V6, just that they share a fairly similar data sheet, with the 6W6 being a slightly lower voltage tube. I would never swap tube types in an amp that wasn't designed for that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> Hey RiverRatt
> 
> Neither 6V6, 6W6 nor 6L6 are interchangeable. They may all be beam power tubes with the same base but the internals in each work differently. That 6W6 for instance it uses more than 3 times the heater current than a 6V6. I'm surprised more stuff didn't "redplate".
> 
> Why didn't anyone else holler at RiverRatt before he did that? When substituting tubes, you need to open a book or ask questions first? There are only a few subs for the 6V6...just other 6V6 types along with 5871, 7184 and 7408.
> 
> Hope this helps.



I didn't, because I don't own a Pico Amp. Ratt stated that the amp used a wide variety of octal based power tubes, so he should of known what can or cannot be used. If only one tube is being used, I don't know what sort of demand is placed on the power transformer. Again, I don't know the specs of this particular amp.



> Some info on those tubes posted. All of them are RCA manufactured. The octogon is a dead giveaway. The octogaon is an old dating system used by RCA. The long and short breaks in the octogon actually tell a story about the tube, manufacturing wise.
> 
> Another tidbit: RCA made tubes for GE, Sylvania, and other companies...and so on...and Sylvania made tubes for RCA, GE and other companies...and so on...and this practice encompasses all countries and their manufacturers. They all ordered, bought and sold through each other and to each other.
> 
> By the way, I did a little research because I couldn't remember, but Tungsol was the only manufacturer for the 5881. They sold 5881 tubes to other manufactures with different brand labels in some cases. Some other manufactures did produce the 6L6WGB or 6L6WGB/5881 tubes which is an equivilent.



I always thought that for some period of time, Tung-Sol used the same octagon. I've read in several online sites that made reference to this. Maybe they are wrong. Any info to clear this up would be appreciated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just did a quick search and found this.

http://www.jt30.com/usenet-articles/tubes/id-tube-makers.html



> BTW, same applies for 6L6′s & 6V6′s, generally.
> Tungsols 6L6-GC have the number in an octagon like RCA,
> but the guts look like a GE! The Tungsol 6V6′s have big
> black plates, which, if you’ve ever seen one, wouldn’t be
> mistaken for anything else. BTW, Tungsols RETMA code
> was 322.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I always thought that for some period of time, Tung-Sol used the same octagon. I've read in several online sites that made reference to this. Maybe they are wrong. Any info to clear this up would be appreciated.



TS tubes do have a very similar octagon, usually a bit thicker/darker than the RCA octagon.


----------



## solarburn

I've been roll'n my RFT EL84's and some TAD EL84STR's that DR. Z gave as extras. In the Monza. The biggest thing I noticed about them is the RFT's have a richer, fatter mid to them and the TAD's are a bit thinner of a crunch or not as fat. Also the RFT's break up sooner and are warmer with volume changes on the guitar. That being said the TAD's don't sound so thin they sound bad. I like how they sound especially full out. 

I notice the thinness more when I use guitar roll off. Full on the TAD'S have a nice crunch. At less volume(guitar roll off)they become sharper and cut more. So I don't roll off as much with them cause they cut more than I like. Now I need to watch the TAD's cause the first pair(one tube)burned up with little play time. We all know how tubes can be even out of the gate. So i'll just watch and see.

I like the TAD's over the JJ's I have tone wise but the differences aren't night and day really. The RFT's rule in both my EL84 amps. They remind me of the GT 34M's and how rich the mids are compared to other 34's. Its noticeable.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The RFT's rule in both my EL84 amps. They remind me of the GT 34M's and how rich the mids are compared to other 34's. Its noticeable.



Thanks, Joe. Something else to spend money on...


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Well, the whole reason for the oddball power tubes is that thetragichero and me recently bought the new Jet City PicoValve amp head. It's designed by Andy Marshall, the guy behind the UniValve. The whole premise is that you are supposed to be able to use any power tube without re-biasing. We're kinda throwing odd stuff at it just to see what happens. So far, it has accepted about as many tubes as have redplated or sounded horrible. I didn't mean to imply that the 6W6 was a direct swap with the 6V6, just that they share a fairly similar data sheet, with the 6W6 being a slightly lower voltage tube. I would never swap tube types in an amp that wasn't designed for that.




I get it. I's just for fun. The picovalve seems to be a weird little amp. I looked it up but didn't see an extensive list of power tubes like it claimed. No biasing...I wouldn't trust it. Have fun melting tubes!


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just did a quick search and found this.
> 
> http://www.jt30.com/usenet-articles/tubes/id-tube-makers.html



I read the article. A lot of it is accurate, some not so. Tung-Sol only manufactured specialty purpose electron tubes. They did however distribute general purpose tubes. I'm pretty sure of that. A 6L6GC is a general population tube. That large GE looking tube with the octagon was made by RCA. Both GE and RCA made 6L6GC tubes for each other. Tung-Sol contracted a lot of stuff from RCA and sold it under their name. Sylvania also had a 6L6GC. But, RCA is the only manufacturer that made several different 6L6GC designs, the side getter black plates being the most well known (their baby).


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> I get it. I's just for fun. The picovalve seems to be a weird little amp. I looked it up but didn't see an extensive list of power tubes like it claimed. No biasing...I wouldn't trust it. Have fun melting tubes!



Not to worry - I know just when to hit the power switch! 

It actually seems to work pretty well as long as I stay in the EL34 - 6L6 - 6V6 family. I just tried a GT EL34M in it and it sounded pretty good w/no issues. So far the Tung-Sol 5881 is still king. Now that I've had it awhile and I'm learning to dial it in, it's not a bad sounding little amp at all. No cleans to speak of, but it is thick as hell and sustains for days.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just snagged another Tung-Sol 5881 off the 'bay for $17 shipped. It tests good but has a broken guide pin. Any way to replace those?


----------



## MM54

Not really, just be careful when you put it in to line up the pins right and it should work fine though.


----------



## cagamp1

Now I'm thinkin I want to try a set of them NOS Tung-Sol 5881's too. I keep hearing about them. I also want to try 7581's. Anyone had a listen to those?


----------



## RiverRatt

I was just thinking if you could remove the base from an old tube and get the pins out of it, then cut the sides off so you have a flat base with the guide pin attached, it should slide over the other tube's pins and line up fine. Maybe tack it on with a little super glue.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> Now I'm thinkin I want to try a set of them NOS Tung-Sol 5881's too. I keep hearing about them. I also want to try 7581's. Anyone had a listen to those?



They are definitely NOT the same as a 6L6GC tone-wise. I want to see what a pair of them can do. I'm hoping the eBay tube will match up close enough to the one I have that I can use them in one of my 6L6 amps. I've never used a 7581.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I just snagged another Tung-Sol 5881 off the 'bay for $17 shipped. It tests good but has a broken guide pin. Any way to replace those?



It amazes me how many power tubes are sold with broken index pins. It makes me stop and wonder how the rest of the tube has been treated.

I have fixed a few where I was given the broken index pin. Without it, there isn't anything you can really do.


----------



## cagamp1

Antique Electronic supply sells a nice little replacement guide pin that slides on over the metal pins.

Antique Electronic Supply

Its located under Vacumm Tube Accesories / Adapters.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> Antique Electronic supply sells a nice little replacement guide pin that slides on over the metal pins.
> 
> Antique Electronic Supply
> 
> Its located under Vacumm Tube Accesories / Adapters.



That's exactly what I was talking about! I'm always a day late an a dollar short.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> Antique Electronic supply sells a nice little replacement guide pin that slides on over the metal pins.
> 
> Antique Electronic Supply
> 
> Its located under Vacumm Tube Accesories / Adapters.



Good call on that. I had forgotten about it. Nowadays, when one thing goes in my brain, one thing must come out.


----------



## cagamp1

I actually need some...maybe on my next order.


----------



## thetragichero

got a few choice tubes from alan that should be here tomorrow to try in the picovalve... can't wait!


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> got a few choice tubes from alan that should be here tomorrow to try in the picovalve... can't wait!



Yeah, I hope they work out for you. I think I'm sending my Pico back. It just isn't what I had thought it would be. It's too picky about tubes and frankly doesn't sound very good IMO unless you use something close to a 6L6. I complained about it to the guys at Jet City and they thought I might not appreciate the subtleties of a Class A amp. The only way this amp sounds good is balls-out gain and I just don't need a head like that. I'm thinking I might try their JCA20H Soldano-design or maybe a Blackstar.


----------



## thetragichero

from what i've read on this forum, that blackstar ht-5 is pretty rad


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I hope they work out for you. I think I'm sending my Pico back. It just isn't what I had thought it would be. It's too picky about tubes and frankly doesn't sound very good IMO unless you use something close to a 6L6. I complained about it to the guys at Jet City and they thought I might not appreciate the subtleties of a Class A amp. The only way this amp sounds good is balls-out gain and I just don't need a head like that. I'm thinking I might try their JCA20H Soldano-design or maybe a Blackstar.



They been get'n good player reviews on HC. Jet City offers them on their website with mods already on them too. Anywhere from loops to circuit tweeks if you are into certain modder's sounds. Not that you have to have a modded one. They just have those tweeks if you're into it. I wouldn't mind getting their 50 watter especially at the price it is but man I really want a plexi circuit amp...

From the sounds of it regarding the PV I'd send it back too. Its not do'n it for you and I don't F' around with amps any more once I've taken them through their paces either. 

JetPacks - Jet City Amplification


----------



## johnfv

I'd be curious to hear impressions of the Blackstar amps. I agree the Pico does not seem as flexible with power tubes as they would lead you to believe but for me it does a great high gain tone at low volume - currently seeing more action than any other amp I have. The JCA20H has an excellent EL-84 "bark" but you may want to play with the preamp tubes to get more headroom; it is pretty high gain stock. I took it over to a friend for some recording and it sounded so good he won't give it back


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know what I'll do. What I really need is a mid-powered head or combo that's portable and goes from clean to blues to crunch. I've got that 1966 2x12 Marshall cab that would be perfect for a smaller head. I'm still eyeing that Ceriatone 1974 TMB clone, but I may just sit on the cash for awhile and check out one of those Blackstar HT20s my friend is carrying now. I guess it's better to wait until I find something I can't live without.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JCMJMP is knowledgeable and picky. He got a Blackstar 20 and is very happy with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I've got to try one of those first-hand as soon as I can get to the store again. I never seem to have much free time these days.

Here's my new toy. It's a pretty close match for my other Tung-Sol. If I can get past this guide pin thing without frying my Ampeg, I'm looking forward to this test.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Personally, I've never broken a guide pin. It seems you would have to be sort of an oaf to break one.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Personally, I've never broken a guide pin. It seems you would have to be sort of an oaf to break one.



I was thinking the same thing, if the pin got snapped off, it makes you wonder how the rest of the tube was treated 

Then again, the only time I've seen it happen, I took a 5U4 out of its socket for the first time in probably 25 years, the pin just stayed in there, and that wasn't abusive to the tube at all.


----------



## thetragichero

i bet he broke it off in the picovalve
i know i have

on tubier note, the high-testing, matched 6v6s (nos tung sol) i just put in the 5e3 sound worse than the unmatched tubes (nos rca) i had in there before (unappealing distortion sound on every single note)
is this a tube issue i should bring up to the seller, or is it too much juice?


----------



## DirtySteve

What are the effects of humidity on tube amps? I have 2 Class 5 amps and they both sound equally like shit the last several days!  I'm at a loss... They are lifeless with little sustain and and they lost all their umph and just sound brittle and weak!

The apartment I live in has crappy insulation. I have one of those humidity tester things and the humidity went from between 60 - about 67% all summer, down to about 30 - 35% in the last few weeks and then yesterday it was back up to around 60% again. That’s inside, not outside! I know humidity effects guitars. All of my guitars need a truss rod adjustments, but how does it effect tubes?

Both amps are set up the same with the exception of preamp tubes.


----------



## solarburn

DirtySteve said:


> What are the effects of humidity on tube amps? I have 2 Class 5 amps and they both sound equally like shit the last several days!  I'm at a loss... They are lifeless with little sustain and and they lost all their umph and just sound brittle and weak!
> 
> The apartment I live in has crappy insulation. I have one of those humidity tester things and the humidity went from between 60 - about 67% all summer, down to about 30 - 35% in the last few weeks and then yesterday it was back up to around 60% again. That’s inside, not outside! I know humidity effects guitars. All of my guitars need a truss rod adjustments, but how does it effect tubes?
> 
> Both amps are set up the same with the exception of preamp tubes.



Do a tube check/change on one of them to see if it changes for the better. Hopefully you have some known good spares around to pop in and see...Then I'd consider other things.


----------



## cagamp1

DirtySteve
Humidity won't do anything to your tubes. Unless you leave them outside on the back patio.

I lived in Louisiana for 40 years...humidity 60-100% all the time outside.

You have a common problem with something that you may be connecting to both amps.
Figure out what that may be. ie: wall socket, power strip, speaker cable or cab connections...


----------



## DirtySteve

They are plugged into the same power strip and I'm using the same guitar cables and all. I'll look at those things. I guess with the change in the weather lately my mind went straight to that and I forgot all my basic troublesooting skills. Thanks!


----------



## cagamp1

DirtySteve said:


> They are plugged into the same power strip and I'm using the same guitar cables and all. I'll look at those things. I guess with the change in the weather lately my mind went straight to that and I forgot all my basic troublesooting skills. Thanks!



Yes, and humidity can play a factor there.

Maybe one day I might create a tech thread on *interconnect*...the most overlooked and misunderstood piece of gear.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Personally, I've never broken a guide pin. It seems you would have to be sort of an oaf to break one.



I broke one on a big RCA 5R4 rectifier once, and it was in a new ceramic socket. Like TTH said, the PicoValve was horrible about this when changing tubes and it had tight ceramic sockets as well. All you can do is work the tube back and forth until it comes out. I was doing this when the pin broke, and I didn't feel particularly oafish when it happened. I was pissed off, though. 

I won't use ceramic octal sockets any more. Triode Electronics has some nice micanol octal sockets that are a lot more tube-friendly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I prefer the micanol. Some people have actually cracked a 12XX7 tube in a ceramic socket putting in the tube.


----------



## thetragichero

yeah i have those triode electronic sockets in my 5e3... they're WONDERFUL


----------



## RiverRatt

AAARRRGGGHHH! I've had two amps take a shit on me in the last 2 days. I got that old Harmony working and was going to sell it and then the tremolo quit working. Now, I just put the Tung-Sol 5881's in the Ampeg and fired it up and I think one of those 40-year-old caps bit the dust. I've been noticing a lack of tone and volume and foolishly ignored it. Now the volume has dropped to nearly nothing and it's motorboating and tailing off into static and pops. The only tube I can't replace is the 7199. I've tried everything else. I guess I'm going to have to open it up and try to find a replacement for the damned things. It doesn't have cans, just the big orange ones that look like dynamite or something.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess this post belongs over in, "Do I Really Need To Change My Caps?"


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry - I just needed to vent somewhere. I quit playing for the night and opened up a beer. Ain't no way I'm turning on the Marshall after killing two amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was just trying to bring a little humor to your situation.

However, I agree with you...don't turn on the Marshall. Let the moon set for the night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS,NOS,NOS!!!

We love to talk about power tubes whether they be new production or NOS. Let us help you solve your power tube problems.


----------



## topcat 70

Ive just taken the back off my sound city 120pa.The amp isnt worth much but ive pulled out 3 x mullard xf2 and 3 x mullard xf4's.Gonna get them checked out and if anygood put a pair in my 78 50watt mv!


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats on a great score! I traded off a Sound City Fifty + head way back when I was young and foolish and didn't know a tube from a bicycle. I've always wondered what I gave away with that amp.


----------



## topcat 70

RiverRatt said:


> Congrats on a great score! I traded off a Sound City Fifty + head way back when I was young and foolish and didn't know a tube from a bicycle. I've always wondered what I gave away with that amp.



Yeah thats the good thing with these old amps and cabs.You never know what you might find once you take the back off!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thos old Mullards are about as good as it gets. Some people just go plumb nuts for an xf1. I much rather have an xf2 or xf3 for less money. Hell, even the xf4's were decent tubes.

I hope you can get some good pairs.


----------



## Moving Air

Trying some Harma Retros, anyone have any experience?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let us know how they sound. I know how an old Mullard sounds. If they can get close to that, they've got something.


----------



## Moving Air

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let us know how they sound. I know how an old Mullard sounds. If they can get close to that, they've got something.



Will do, I always liked the Winged C in the Jub but these things are half the price. They were recommended, so I'm hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised....... but not really expecting them to lock horns with a vintage Mullard


----------



## MartyStrat54

What is the US dollar amount that you paid for them? Harma is big in the UK.


----------



## Moving Air

$96.91 US dollars according to the converter. Getting them from Watford Valves, always given excellent service in the past


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Did you ever try the GT 34M's out? Never heard what your thoughts were on them. I am working with a guy who bought a set on my recommendation. This is an 4104 I believe. The 100 watt JCM 800 combo.

He said his research pulled up a lot of negative feedback on these tubes, but he is going to try them out, because he got a Black Friday deal on them at GC. I'll have him post up here with his comments on them.


----------



## MM54

I still like my EH 6CA7's. Re-biased to 70% in the ML100 and DAMN do they sound great. Great tubes with a full, tight spectrum, and when they compress, it's spectacular.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I haven't gotten around to it yet. I've been trying to move an amp or two and I need to get the Ampeg fixed. I barely have room to play guitar in there it's getting so crowded. 

There's always gonna be somebody complaining about them because they are a GT tube, but back when I was using them they sounded good and were reliable. Hell, they've been across the country at least 4 times and they are still kickin'.


----------



## Moose Lewis

MartyStrat54 said:


> Black Friday deal on them at GC.



Hi Marty and Alan - it was Richmond Music Center... they were blowin' out some real deals today. It will be awhile before I can get the 4104 rebiased for the GT EL34Ms - but I will definitely report back when I get a chance to play 'em! Thanks for all your help Marty! 

Hey Alan, I finally got a chance to drop that Ei/Westinghouse you sent me into something - the JCM 800... and buddy, it made all the difference. It had a new Sovtek in V1. It was OK, but the Ei really brought the drive and tone to life. I can't wait to get the V2 & PI tubes from Marty to finish it out.

Check out the new amp:
http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/20749-jcm-800-raggedy-man-new-amp-euphoria.html


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Moose. Keep us posted.


----------



## RiverRatt

Glad you like the Ei. I think you'll like the EL34Ms, too. The only reason I quit using mine was because of a nice pair of RFT EL34s from Marty. 

I'm going to try to hit that Guitar Center sale, too. I've been wanting to try out an Egnater Tweaker. It's gotten really good reviews and sounds like the perfect grab-n-go small amp. I've got a Marshall 1966 2x12 that I'm going to use it with if I end up getting one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

U must have sent the PICO back.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it's been gone awhile now. It just didn't turn out to be the tube-tweaker's dream amp I thought it would be. I figured out that I only had two or three power tubes that sounded good in it, and the only pre's that worked in it were the Chinese ones that came with it. It might have been a fun toy to play with from time to time but it wasn't worth the trouble to me. It did have a very nice overdrive tone cranked, though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my opinion is that these small 5W amps all do the overdrive sound well. They don't have much clean headroom though.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I can easily concur on that one. I had a modded Valve Jr. for a while (one of the amps I sold to obtain my Marshall). It sounded good cranked, but just couldn't do clean beyond the bedroom...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hear that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Any power tube questions out there?


----------



## Moving Air

Moving Air said:


> Trying some Harma Retros, anyone have any experience?



Well they're run in and first impressions are very favourable, Mullard replicas? I wouldn't go that far but a very nice even sound and they definitely tame the harsher part of top end a little, without seeming to loose anything. Ii have them in the SJ2555 atm. Not massively different to a =C= but in small, kinda nice ways.

Longevity? I'll let you know


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, the 6P14Ps are really doing the job in the JCA20. I also loaded it up with a Siemens und Halske in V1, a Ray bp in V2 and a prewar Ei in V3 (you tested it at 40/29). Awesome tones! I've got it sitting beside the DSL on top of the 1966 2x12 cab. It's not exactly the versatile amp that I wanted, but it'll go from early AC/DC crunch to insane OD. It'll be a great little to-go rig that can do classic rock and blues really well. 

Thanks for the help scoring that 2nd 6P14P. Listening to the two amps side by side, it's really hard to believe that the Jet City isn't running EL34's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there's a reason why a lot of designers keep using the EL84's. They sound good and there are plenty of them. (Still lots of Russian surplus left.)

As I said, I would love an 80 watt EL84 amp (eight EL84's). That would be sweet. Impractical, but sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of the first places that solid state devices worked their way into home electronics was to replace rectifier tubes. Many TV repair folks used to carry a supply of silicon diodes to solder across the pins of rectifier tube sockets or failed selenium rectifiers. A company named Sarkes Tarzian even used to make a solid state rectifier that would plug right in the tube socket in in place of a Rectifier tube. (Sarkes Tarzian, Inc. is in the TV broadcasting business rather than a parts supplier these days) A pair of 1500V, 1 amp silicon Diodes could be wired in place of your 6CA4, and save about 7 watts of heater power. You should know that as the silicon diode has a lower voltage drop, you may end up supplying too high a voltage to the rest of your amp. Also since the silicon has instant warm-up, the power supply will be on before the rest of the set has had a chance to warm up, this may mean an even greater voltage in the first couple of seconds after you switch on. This may be hard on the filter caps. This is particularly the case where the power transformer is slightly on the small side, and may now be putting out a higher voltage with one less heater to supply.

If you are talking about a Musical Instrument amp, you should be aware that the drop in voltage across the rectifier that occurs when you play a note, called SAG is part of what makes a tube amp sound like a tube amp. The higher current drain while a note is playing causes the Power supply filters to partly discharge, they charge up again between notes. This effect will not occur with silicon diodes in the power supply unless the power transformer is way too small for the output of the amplifier.

Something to think about if you want to replace a rectifier tube with a plug in solid state replacement. The Tube Depot and the Tube Store both have warnings in regard to this as they sell SS plug in replacements for a variety of rectifier tube types.


----------



## cagamp1

Marty, I'm totally with that. If I have a tube rect amp...I want the tube and the sag. That is how it was designed and meant to be.

If someone came up with a SS plugin for your power tube would you use it...hell no! All tubes is all better to me.

By the way, what prompted a rect tube post on the power tube thread?


----------



## RiverRatt

This thread has been our catch-all thread for rectifier tubes. No one wanted to start a "rectifier Tubes: Who, What, When & Where" thread just for them.

Is a solid-state rectified amp still an all-tube amp? Other than the aforementioned sag, they really contribute nothing to the tone. I guess if you're a purist, you would need a recto tube, but even Marshall ditched them pretty quickly. I don't notice that much of a difference between my SS and tube rectified amps.


----------



## ssryan2

What tubes do you think I should put in my class 5?


----------



## schwa

I have a 2204 (50W EL34) amp, and want to do a re-tube on the power section. I know NOS Mullards are the gold standard, but are NOS Siemens worth the affordable premium over the current production options? 

I know there are some pretty good EL34's out there these days, I'm just wondering if the Siemens are worth the exrtra $100...


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt, I'm not a purist. I don't think "all tube" would be for everyone. I wouldn't swap out rectifiers in old amps though. I do love the hard drive and attack of a solid state rectifier circuit. It takes a couple or several good tube rectifiers to do that...not too cost productive.


----------



## cagamp1

schwa said:


> I have a 2204 (50W EL34) amp, and want to do a re-tube on the power section. I know NOS Mullards are the gold standard, but are NOS Siemens worth the affordable premium over the current production options?
> 
> I know there are some pretty good EL34's out there these days, I'm just wondering if the Siemens are worth the exrtra $100...


 
Lots of people stand by their NOS tubes. But that's up to you and your wallet. Watch EBAY...sometimes you may see four for a less per tube. Buy'em and pick the two you like and sell the other two. Sometimes you can luck out and get your pair for $50-$60 if patient.


----------



## thetragichero

i did the joey mods on my dsl yesterday. i let it sit overnight so all of the contact cleaner could dry.
started it up today to bias it, and the first power amp tube (V5) is red plating.
i switched V5 with V8 thinking maybe it was the tube, but the tube in V5 position still red plated
what's causing this, and how do i fix it?!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you remember to turn your bias trim pots down? Where you able to get any sort of bias reading? Turn your bias pots down and see if you can turn the amp on. If it still red plates with the pot turned down, you have a resistor failure somewhere in V5's circuit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

schwa said:


> I have a 2204 (50W EL34) amp, and want to do a re-tube on the power section. I know NOS Mullards are the gold standard, but are NOS Siemens worth the affordable premium over the current production options?
> 
> I know there are some pretty good EL34's out there these days, I'm just wondering if the Siemens are worth the exrtra $100...



Siemens aka RFT's are a very good, long lasting tube. You can pick up a matched set for around $225. Worth every penny. They will put any CP tube to shame.


----------



## RiverRatt

I noticed that Brian Sanborn has RFT EL34s listed on eBay again. You could probably snag a pair for your 2204 for around $100. He's always been an easy guy to deal with for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's who I was referring to, but I thought he was looking for a matched quad.


----------



## RiverRatt

Have you kept up with him? Why are the RFTs getting so scarce? I remember seeing factory boxes of 100's of tubes and that's just not happening anymore. There's got to be a few more stockpiles out there that haven't been found.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That might be true and if so, it just means higher prices.


----------



## Moving Air

Moving Air said:


> Well they're run in and first impressions are very favourable, Mullard replicas? I wouldn't go that far but a very nice even sound and they definitely tame the harsher part of top end a little, without seeming to loose anything. Ii have them in the SJ2555 atm. Not massively different to a =C= but in small, kinda nice ways.
> 
> Longevity? I'll let you know



I'm loving these things, best sounding valves I've had since....... since the unmarked, white box, supposed russian army surplus that I had back in '89.

Saturation kicks in early, about 5 on the MV, the Jub 2555 has always needed to hit 7 before sounding it's best(half power switch never cut it for me and 7 just isn't practical in a lot of pub gigs) 
Maybe a little quieter than the winged C's.GT's etc. but they get nicer earlier and stay there longer... Just hope they last


----------



## Clammy

Anyone know why the price of SED EL-34s has gone through the roof??? I was looking around and they're going for 80 - 90 bucks/per matched PAIR! I remember buying a matched QUAD for that not long ago. 

Cheers!


----------



## MM54

Speaking of price, any of you know anything about E.A.T. tubes? I read a little about them and it seems interesting, but are they really worth $1800/quad? (I don't see how ANY tube is worth that much.)

:: EUROAUDIOTEAM ::


----------



## RiverRatt

I like SEDs pretty well, but you could get a matched pair of RFTs for around $100. I don't have a clue why they would be so expensive now. Hell, you can get a pair of Groove Tubes EL34Ms for $35 and I like them better than the SEDs.


----------



## cagamp1

You can find SED EL34 sets for around $50 in the US. Just gotta search.

Those Harma EL34's sound interesting, but don't seem to be distributed in the US (yet?).


----------



## Moose Lewis

Heyyy Marty (and Alan)!

Finally got those GT EL34Ms dialed in on the 800. Initially, there was a tiny bit of fizziness to the top end (and the bass was barely noticeably flabbier) - I had them biased slightly hot. But they cooked for two days with a lot of burn odor filling the room. After that, the fizz went away. Then, after a standard re-bias - they're perfect (to my ears).

Lots of body with a good solid chunk from power cords, and smoother on the top than it was before switching tubes. Of course, the pre tubes that came from you guys made the biggest difference initially... but I'd say the GT's finished 'er up.

Sounds good ~ how will they hold up? Only time will tell. I'm happy with it now, tho. Lookin' to swap out the speakers - but that's it.

 Cheers! 

BTW: American Viking did the biasing for me. Great guy to work with. Anyone in the Richmond area of Virginia in need of amp work should contact him. Very conscientious and good rates to boot.

Since it took me quite a while to find techs to do my guitar and amp work that were available; do good work; and didn't cost an arm & a leg, I wanted to put a post up for other guys in the area that might have experienced the same problem. Where would be appropriate to post? Amps? Workbench?


----------



## MartyStrat54

American Viking is a good dude. I'm glad he helped you out. Great to hear the 34M's came around for you.

If you want to put a good word in for AV, I would use the Workbench section.


----------



## Moose Lewis

_Yes, he is!_ In fact, the guys in his band (U.S. Brass) all seemed like good people... _and_ are puttin' out some good jams (brought home one of their CDs). 

Thanks for the info & tube tips, Marty! I'll be sniffin' around more when I get my Haze 40 back. Haven't heard much on rolling tubes in _it_ yet... hope to see some reports from folks who have already started experimenting.
 Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem. Glad to help.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Is there a rule of thumb on how often you should change the power tubes?


----------



## Clammy

rockinr0ll said:


> Is there a rule of thumb on how often you should change the power tubes?



Not really. Let your ears tell you when it's time. The amp's performance and tone will suffer when the tubes are nearly their end of serviceable life.

Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, the higher the plate/screen voltage, the shorter the tube life.


----------



## RiverRatt

Moose Lewis said:


> Heyyy Marty (and Alan)!
> 
> Finally got those GT EL34Ms dialed in on the 800. Initially, there was a tiny bit of fizziness to the top end (and the bass was barely noticeably flabbier) - I had them biased slightly hot. But they cooked for two days with a lot of burn odor filling the room. After that, the fizz went away. Then, after a standard re-bias - they're perfect (to my ears).
> 
> Lots of body with a good solid chunk from power cords, and smoother on the top than it was before switching tubes. Of course, the pre tubes that came from you guys made the biggest difference initially... but I'd say the GT's finished 'er up.
> 
> Sounds good ~ how will they hold up? Only time will tell. I'm happy with it now, tho. Lookin' to swap out the speakers - but that's it.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> BTW: American Viking did the biasing for me. Great guy to work with. Anyone in the Richmond area of Virginia in need of amp work should contact him. Very conscientious and good rates to boot.
> 
> Since it took me quite a while to find techs to do my guitar and amp work that were available; do good work; and didn't cost an arm & a leg, I wanted to put a post up for other guys in the area that might have experienced the same problem. Where would be appropriate to post? Amps? Workbench?



Great! I'm glad you liked the EL34Ms. I've tried Russian EL34s, JJ E34Ls, Shugang, Winged C, et al, and the EL34Ms are just more full and chunky to my ears without the spiky treble that most of the other CP tubes have.


----------



## RiverRatt

The.. best... power... tubes... EVER.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Great! I'm glad you liked the EL34Ms. I've tried Russian EL34s, JJ E34Ls, Shugang, Winged C, et al, and the EL34Ms are just more full and chunky to my ears without the spiky treble that most of the other CP tubes have.


 I've been using the JJ EL34L's... I think I'll be trying the M's on my next go 'round. I like what I'm hearing from you guys on these...

.


----------



## RiverRatt

You play a TSL60, right? PM me your address and I'll give you a trial run on a pair of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He has a TSL100, Ratt.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> You play a TSL60, right? PM me your address and I'll give you a trial run on a pair of them.



Actually I'm playing a 100w... Not too many guys have a quad sitting around to loan out...


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry, Josh. I was thinking there was some reason we hadn't done this before now.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... My memory ain't do grand, but... I think we last have had this conversation b4...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I've thinking on these for a while now, but with the feed back from you guys on these... I'm pretty convinced that these'll be my next set of power tubes...


----------



## thrawn86

*This is from the MLP and I was wondering if you guys could help....*



captainbraindamage said:


> It's a Silvertone, smoked glass, black plate. Is it a relabeled RCA? Just curious. Ignorant on old tubes and trying to educate myself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the PN is etched into the glass inside an octagon box, it is an RCA. Silvertone did not make any tubes. They were a relabeler. They used a lot of RCA, Raytheon and Sylvania.

What can you tell me about how the PN is portrayed on the tube?


----------



## thrawn86

Thanks Marty. I think he figured out it's a Sylvania on his own, but you are the man.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, most of the Silvertone EL84's I have had were made by Raytheon. However, some were Sylvania as well.


----------



## musicman

Could anyone suggest the best reasonably priced power tube option for my JTM45 RI please ?
Possibilities are:
JAN 6L6WGB SYLVANIA 5881 CV2796 - £23.50 each
6L6 GC Svetlana Winged C - £22.00 each
Electro Harmonix 6L6 GC - £12.75 each
6L6GC SVETLANA USSR NOS - £24.00 each
Groove tubes 6L6R duet grade 8 - £23.50 each
6L6 GC JJ Tesla - £15.00 each
PM 6L6GC - £25.00 each
Mesa Boogie STR440 (6L6 GC) - £20.00 each
6L6WGB GE VALVE TUBE MADE IN CANADA - £35.00 each
Tung-Sol 6L6G ( 6L6GC ) BIG BULB Reissue - £18.00 each
6N3C-E/5881/6L6 VALVE made by Svetlana - £15.00 each
Thanks


----------



## musicman

Anyone ?


----------



## cagamp1

musicman said:


> Anyone ?


 
I'd favor the SY & GE 6L6WGB's because they are old stock. Many stand by the old stock TS 5881's and those are similar. I have a set of SY 6L6WGB's and like them although have yet to compare them to the old TS's.

But, a good Svet =C= will be better that a badly worn TS.:eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

But a good set of Tung-Sol 5881s are pure magic. If you combined the best characteristics of a 6V6, 6L6 and EL34, that's what you'd end up with. I have a good, strong matched pair and I hate to use them because it will be hell to replace them, but they sound so good I always end up running them anyway. I lucked out and got mine out of an ancient Bogen turntable that ran them with 6SL7 preamp tubes and a 5U4GB rectifier. I think I picked the thing up for $20. The PT was fried but I got a lot of goodies out of that box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Either the Sylvania 5881 or the 6L6WGB GE.

Current tube would be the TAD 6L6STR.

TAD 6L6GC-STR


----------



## Steve0525

IMO, the EL34's are just sooo much warmer... But maybe I'm just Biased. (APPLAUSE)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think that's why I love the EH6CA7's. They have a 6L6 bite to them, plus the growl of an EL34.


----------



## musicman

Thanks Chaps.


----------



## aryasridhar

Hey Guys,

Happy New Year to all you guys here on the forum !!!!!!!!!

My question is about a NON marshall amp. please pardon me if i intruded this thread with my question.

I recently ordered a matched pair of Tung Sol 6V6GT's for my Laney Cub 10, They are yet to arrive. 
Could you guys help me know how to bias the tubes when i replace them?

This amp does have a bias pot inside, and upon checking with Laney support, they mentioned that for better performance I would need to get the amp rebiased after replacing the tubes.

Some people whom i checked with (on other forums and on YouTube) say, it is a cathode biased amp and does not need re biasing, which per Laney Support doesn't look correct to me.

I thought I would check with you to see if you could help me out?

Any help or suggestion is highly appreciated.

Arya


----------



## aryasridhar

Oops, forgot to mention, I also ordered a pair of Tung Sol 12AX7 tubes, I am guessing I just replace them without any worries?


----------



## MartyStrat54

aryasridhar said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Happy New Year to all you guys here on the forum !!!!!!!!!
> 
> My question is about a NON marshall amp. please pardon me if i intruded this thread with my question.
> 
> I recently ordered a matched pair of Tung Sol 6V6GT's for my Laney Cub 10, They are yet to arrive.
> Could you guys help me know how to bias the tubes when i replace them?
> 
> This amp does have a bias pot inside, and upon checking with Laney support, they mentioned that for better performance I would need to get the amp rebiased after replacing the tubes.
> 
> Some people whom i checked with (on other forums and on YouTube) say, it is a cathode biased amp and does not need re biasing, which per Laney Support doesn't look correct to me.
> 
> I thought I would check with you to see if you could help me out?
> 
> Any help or suggestion is highly appreciated.
> 
> Arya



See my PM to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

aryasridhar said:


> Oops, forgot to mention, I also ordered a pair of Tung Sol 12AX7 tubes, I am guessing I just replace them without any worries?



Yeah they are plug and play. No biasing on the preamp tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think that's why I love the EH6CA7's. They have a 6L6 bite to them, plus the growl of an EL34.



I'm going to have to break down and try a set of those.


----------



## johnfv

I tried the EH 6CA7 in my Pico Valve and it didn't work out BUT when it wasn't making a crackling sound the tone was great. I used to put 6CA7 tubes in my Plexi and use it for a "cleanish" (early Pete T) sort of tone. I think I need to try them in my Hiwatt...


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I tried the EH 6CA7 in my Pico Valve and it didn't work out BUT when it wasn't making a crackling sound the tone was great. I used to put 6CA7 tubes in my Plexi and use it for a "cleanish" (early Pete T) sort of tone. I think I need to try them in my Hiwatt...



Yeah, I returned my Picovalve because of that crackling and the pretty blue arcs that went with it. I sent it to them for repair and they sent it back and said it was fine and sent along a Ruby EL34 and an old Tung-Sol 6V6 with it to prove it. I couldn't get it to work with any EL34 I had. If you're into power tube swapping, the Egnater Tweaker is a little tone monster that'll handle about anything you can fit in the cabinet. Mine is sounding just right with a pair of NOS Tung-Sol 5881s. The only problem is you have to take the vent off the top to fit big-bottle tubes like EL34s and 6CA7s and the old RCA 6L6s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Did you end up with a TWEAKER? Does it use two power tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Did you end up with a TWEAKER? Does it use two power tubes?



Yeah, cathode biased, too. It sounds wicked good. I've been playing my LP through it a lot as my strat is in the hospital. It is almost impossible to get a bad tone out of it, and it has a LOT of good tones. The 5881s were a big improvement over the stock 6V6s that came in it. So far I've tried those and my MIJ black plate 6L6s. I thought the 6L6s would sound great in it, but they can't touch the 5881s. 

This is the amp I've been looking for. I've wanted a lower powered head to go with my 1966 cab and this is what I finally ended up with. It's almost like having a modeler except with real tube tone. The Vox tone is the least convincing of the 3 settings, but it's passable. If I can get my Ampeg back up and running, I think I'm through chasing amps for awhile.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, cathode biased, too. It sounds wicked good. I've been playing my LP through it a lot as my strat is in the hospital. It is almost impossible to get a bad tone out of it, and it has a LOT of good tones. The 5881s were a big improvement over the stock 6V6s that came in it. So far I've tried those and my MIJ black plate 6L6s. I thought the 6L6s would sound great in it, but they can't touch the 5881s.
> 
> This is the amp I've been looking for. I've wanted a lower powered head to go with my 1966 cab and this is what I finally ended up with. It's almost like having a modeler except with real tube tone. The Vox tone is the least convincing of the 3 settings, but it's passable. If I can get my Ampeg back up and running, I think I'm through chasing amps for awhile.



I didn't realize you could use different power tubes in this one. I'm not a big fan of 6V6's. Sounds like a great amp with a lot of areas to tweak on it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Any of you guys heard of this before?

GuitarGearHeads - Gear Up Your Sound - Gear News & Reviews


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I didn't realize you could use different power tubes in this one. I'm not a big fan of 6V6's. Sounds like a great amp with a lot of areas to tweak on it.



Yeah, but you'd have to take the top vent off to run anything as tall as an EL34. That's the only drawback I've found.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, but you'd have to take the top vent off to run anything as tall as an EL34. That's the only drawback I've found.



I think you're the only one I've seen/read using different power tubes. I'm thinking others don't know you can. It doesn't say anything about doing that in its overview. Since its possible I'd be doing it too. What about the cathode bias though...thats not a problem with say using the 34's? Its all in the same neighborhood then? Within the resistors range...just thinking out loud.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is the email I got from Egnater when I asked them about swapping power tubes.

What you heard it true. You can put any Power Tube (not including EL84) as you like. I put in EL34 but it made the amp darker and perfect for Fender Strats. If you are going to use a Les Paul, put in 6v6 or 6L6s. So as far as the output, it will be the same. It still remains 15w.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> This is the email I got from Egnater when I asked them about swapping power tubes.
> 
> What you heard it true. You can put any Power Tube (not including EL84) as you like. I put in EL34 but it made the amp darker and perfect for Fender Strats. If you are going to use a Les Paul, put in 6v6 or 6L6s. So as far as the output, it will be the same. It still remains 15w.



Killer man! That's from the man himself. I'm willing to bet the majority of Tweaker owners don't know this cause there is no talk about it in the product description itself or I haven't read anyone else even talk about it let alone try it. They are running just the 6V6's hehe. 

Dude...this amp just got appealing to me because of the power tube latitude. My poor NT! It just got real jealous! You stated it cops a good Marshall tone. So it has a good approximation of those mids we love?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know why they don't advertise this feature, either. I read a couple of threads on other forums where some guys were talking about swapping tubes (BTW, the info was not from Bruce himself). On the Brit setting, it does have a Marshally tone. You can play around with the Vintage/Modern and Tight/Deep switches to dial in what you're looking for. Set to Modern and Tight, it sounds close to the DSL crunch channel. It probably helps that I'm playing through a Marshall cab with G12T-75s too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know why they don't advertise this feature, either. I read a couple of threads on other forums where some guys were talking about swapping tubes (BTW, the info was not from Bruce himself). On the Brit setting, it does have a Marshally tone. You can play around with the Vintage/Modern and Tight/Deep switches to dial in what you're looking for. Set to Modern and Tight, it sounds close to the DSL crunch channel. It probably helps that I'm playing through a Marshall cab with G12T-75s too.



Oh ok. Well the DSL's Crunch would be the one to emulate.


----------



## JCM900MkIII

NOS Mullard EL-34 tubes are very warm, have little or no bottom end, to the point of being mushy IMO, but are harmonically rich, and have alot of upper midrange chime if that is what you want. If it is chord articulation and tonal clarity that you are after, Mullards are NOT the way to go. For EL-34's with more bottom-end and chord articulation, I like JJ E34L's and Tung Sol EL-34B's in my Marshall amps. For some really dark amps, Winged =C= EL-34's are good to brighten them up, but in Marshalls the Winged =C= EL-34 power tubes sound rather strident, ice pickey upper end to me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found out how to get real crunch out of an EL84.... step on it. Apparently while I was cleaning up I dropped an old Silvertone 6BQ5 and didn't notice until I heard that unmistakable sound. I didn't even open the box to view the carnage.


----------



## Clammy

JCM900MkIII said:


> NOS Mullard EL-34 tubes are very warm, have little or no bottom end, to the point of being mushy IMO, but are harmonically rich, and have alot of upper midrange chime if that is what you want. If it is chord articulation and tonal clarity that you are after, Mullards are NOT the way to go. For EL-34's with more bottom-end and chord articulation, I like JJ E34L's and Tung Sol EL-34B's in my Marshall amps. For some really dark amps, Winged =C= EL-34's are good to brighten them up, but in Marshalls the Winged =C= EL-34 power tubes sound rather strident, ice pickey upper end to me.



Disagree about the Mullards and SEDs, at least in vintage non-master volume Marshalls, anyway. I have a set of NOS Mullard xf2 EL-34s that I used in my 73 Super Bass for recording my bass on our latest CD, and they have PLENTY of bottom end, and just sounding all around amazing - very rich across the whole frequency spectrum. For day to day playing, I use SED (Winged C) EL-34s in my Super Basses as my regular go-to power tube (I save the Mullards for recording), and they're not ice-picky at all. I fact, I'd say they're pretty even sounding, in that there are no noticeable frequency spikes from them. I play both bass and guitar through my heads into various guitar and bass cabs.

Cheers!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I found out how to get real crunch out of an EL84.... step on it. Apparently while I was cleaning up I dropped an old Silvertone 6BQ5 and didn't notice until I heard that unmistakable sound. I didn't even open the box to view the carnage.



Bummer Alan! That would definitely qualify as a bit of a let down. 

LP


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Bummer Alan! That would definitely qualify as a bit of a let down.
> 
> LP



Just more proof that Murphy's Law was written with me in mind.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Don't rip Murphy... She's my room-mate. And she gets cranky when I talk about her behind her back... 

... Never mind. She's gone now. Say what ya like!


----------



## Clammy

RiverRatt said:


> Just more proof that Murphy's Law was written with me in mind.



Here's one for you. I have a Nady RW3 UHF wireless system that I've had for at least 10 years, and has been all around the world with me. I recently retired it after buying a Line 6 Relay G50 system (which absolutely RAWKS!!!), so I use the Nady system at home. Anyway, today I was playing guitar and bass at home, at a fairly decent volume through 2 of my Marshall stacks, when all of a sudden there's no sound... I look over and see that the Nady had vibrated right off the shelf and fallen on the floor - a drop of about 4 feet - more or less killing it... the antennae are all bent, the front of the steel case is bent, one of the antenna connectors on the front is crushed... luckily for me, I actually have 2 of these, so I still have a wireless to use at home... but talk about Murphy's law... 

Cheers!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Clammy said:


> Here's one for you. I have a Nady RW3 UHF wireless system that I've had for at least 10 years, and has been all around the world with me. I recently retired it after buying a Line 6 Relay G50 system (which absolutely RAWKS!!!), so I use the Nady system at home. Anyway, today I was playing guitar and bass at home, at a fairly decent volume through 2 of my Marshall stacks, when all of a sudden there's no sound... I look over and see that the Nady had vibrated right off the shelf and fallen on the floor - a drop of about 4 feet - more or less killing it... the antennae are all bent, the front of the steel case is bent, one of the antenna connectors on the front is crushed... luckily for me, I actually have 2 of these, so I still have a wireless to use at home... but talk about Murphy's law...
> 
> Cheers!



Shoot man... Murphy's at you your place...? When she's done taking things there, tell her to come home!

... Oh... And sorry 'bout the mess.


----------



## RiverRatt

Clammy said:


> Here's one for you. I have a Nady RW3 UHF wireless system that I've had for at least 10 years, and has been all around the world with me. I recently retired it after buying a Line 6 Relay G50 system (which absolutely RAWKS!!!), so I use the Nady system at home. Anyway, today I was playing guitar and bass at home, at a fairly decent volume through 2 of my Marshall stacks, when all of a sudden there's no sound... I look over and see that the Nady had vibrated right off the shelf and fallen on the floor - a drop of about 4 feet - more or less killing it... the antennae are all bent, the front of the steel case is bent, one of the antenna connectors on the front is crushed... luckily for me, I actually have 2 of these, so I still have a wireless to use at home... but talk about Murphy's law...
> 
> Cheers!



Ouch! My bad luck seems to involve tubes and output transformers. I did almost drag my DSL 50 head off in the floor the other night though, trying to reach behind it where I had my, uh, where I keep something hidden.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hmm... And just what does Alan keep hidden back there...?


----------



## RiverRatt

There has to be some way to keep a head from skidding around on top of a 1960B cab.


----------



## Clammy

RiverRatt said:


> There has to be some way to keep a head from skidding around on top of a 1960B cab.



Yup, two wide strips of hockey tape (the tape used on the blades and top of the shaft of hockey sticks) between the front and rear caster cups. Works like a charm! Alternatively, you can put the front feet of the head into the front caster cups. The head won't move. I've used both methods with great success. 

Cheers!


----------



## RiverRatt

I might try the tape. The front caster cups are too close to the front edge of the cab for me to feel comfortable with that.


----------



## Clammy

RiverRatt said:


> I might try the tape. The front caster cups are too close to the front edge of the cab for me to feel comfortable with that.



Trust me, you won't have to worry. I run my Super Basses at gig volume all the time, using that method to keep the head from moving. And if it ain't gonna move sitting atop a pair of bass cabs at high volume, it sure won't when it's atop a guitar stack/cab. But if it makes you uncomfortable, the tape trick will work like a charm.

Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, sorry to hear all of the bad news.


----------



## Clammy

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, sorry to hear all of the bad news.



For me, I chalk it up to shit happens. It's kind of funny that the Nady was trashed by Marshall THUNDER!!!! Actually, I turned it on, and even though one antenna socket is hanging on by a thread, and the actual antennae are all crushed and bent (along with the front of the chassis), it seems to work. I'd never even think about using it anywhere other than here at home, though! And as I said, I have another one that I bought years ago as a backup.

Cheers!


----------



## johnfv

Clammy said:


> ...PLENTY of bottom end, and just sounding all around amazing - very rich across the whole frequency spectrum...


I've been letting my bass player use my '68 Superlead Trem lately and he says it is the best thing he's ever heard. He's playing a vintage Rick but it still is very fat sounding, nice natural compression and perfect amount of top end grind. It's just some old Tesla EL-34 tubes in there.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

cagamp1 said:


> Yes, and humidity can play a factor there.
> 
> Maybe one day I might create a tech thread on *interconnect*...the most overlooked and misunderstood piece of gear.



Please do! I'd like to read up on that!


----------



## cagamp1

joshuaaewallen said:


> Please do! I'd like to read up on that!


 
Maybe.

I tried starting a guitar shielding thread and kinda got bitched at by forum members...I guess I didn't explain every little detail in a manner for all to comprehend and some things just went sideways.

Lane Sparber got one going and did a great job.

I don't have time to create a thesis of some sort...but maybe important points, facts and findings in bullet form. I guess I would have to put a disclaimer at the beggining as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's funny what you have to do sometimes to get a thread off on the right track. Some people can be very demanding.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

cagamp1 said:


> Maybe.
> 
> I tried starting a guitar shielding thread and kinda got bitched at by forum members...I guess I didn't explain every little detail in a manner for all to comprehend and some things just went sideways.
> 
> Lane Sparber got one going and did a great job.
> 
> I don't have time to create a thesis of some sort...but maybe important points, facts and findings in bullet form. I guess I would have to put a disclaimer at the beggining as well.





MartyStrat54 said:


> It's funny what you have to do sometimes to get a thread off on the right track. Some people can be very demanding.



Like the saying goes, _*"I can only please one person per day, and today just isn't your day... Tomorrow doesn't look good either."*_ 

Nah... But seriously... I hear ya mate. It just seems like it'd be a good idea. But no worries.


----------



## Moose Lewis

*Wake the dead!*
I got the recommended JJ EL34L power tubes for the Haze 40 installed and biased yesterday by American Viking. They did not reduce the bass, but did tighten it up nicely so that it can be dialed in without getting flubby. They seemed to smooth out the overall response of the amp, too. Run through a 4x12 cab, this thing not only cranks, but has a nice big bottom to work with.

I asked Viking and the other guitarist in his band to have a go at it to see what they thought (and to have a chance to putz with the controls while someone else was playing), and they seemed to be fairly impressed with the sounds it was turning out... I would even say "surprised". 

Thanks for the tip, Marty!
Cheers


----------



## RiverRatt

I got busy last night working on the Ampeg and let a Tung-Sol 5881 slip through my fingers on eBay. It went for $5!!! My 12-year-old told me that the auction I had up had ended. I want another pair of 5881s for the Tweaker. They sound so good in that amp I don't want to be caught out without a spare.

Joe, I read on two or three different websites where people were comparing the Vox setting on the Tweaker to the Night Train. Everybody agreed it wasn't quite there... a little different but in a good way.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got busy last night working on the Ampeg and let a Tung-Sol 5881 slip through my fingers on eBay. It went for $5!!! My 12-year-old told me that the auction I had up had ended. I want another pair of 5881s for the Tweaker. They sound so good in that amp I don't want to be caught out without a spare.
> 
> Joe, I read on two or three different websites where people were comparing the Vox setting on the Tweaker to the Night Train. Everybody agreed it wasn't quite there... a little different but in a good way.



I keep reading good stuff about the tweaker. The only neg is from a few who found it a tad dark. Man you go on Harmony central and they shit all over the NT. Man if you add a boost to it it gets some good tones and still cleans up well. I think where some of these other small amps excel is the use of different power tubes and price. They are coming in alot cheaper than the NT and more capable. OH well...I just want anudder Marshall hehe. Shit right now I only have the NT run'n tube wise and the ss Pathfinder 15R I just got. Least I get to play.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I got busy last night working on the Ampeg and let a Tung-Sol 5881 slip through my fingers on eBay. It went for $5!!! My 12-year-old told me that the auction I had up had ended. I want another pair of 5881s for the Tweaker. They sound so good in that amp I don't want to be caught out without a spare.


 

That is my tube now!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

You won that one?!? Grrrrrrrrrr. Well, at least I wasn't biddin' against a bud.

Now that I've got the Ampeg back up and running, it may have to borrow the 5881s from the tweaker for awhile. I guess it's back to 6V6s for it. I have a lot of tubes I'd like to try in the Tweaker, but any tall bottle tubes have to have the top vent removed to fit. This is how Egnater says to do it. They put the vent so that it could be removed for taller power tubes. The guy I emailed said that the Tweaker running EL34s is his new favorite Strat amp.

I have a couple of old RCA coke bottle regular 6V6s that test NOS. They sound great in the Ampeg, I wonder how they'd do in the Tweaker? They are lower rated than a 6L6GC.


----------



## cagamp1

Well thanks, I guess???
I'll tell you how it test when I get it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I meant that in the most congratulatory way - jealousy just got in the way for a minute there! I can't believe that tube went for $5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a small, small world sometimes, isn't it?


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's a small, small world sometimes, isn't it?


 
Yes it is sometimes.
I just aquired another (on EBAY) from a guy who lives and works less than 15 minutes from where I am located. We also have a few friends in common and he even works with on of them. Go figure. I'll hit'em up and see if he knows of any local stashes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's friggin' cool. I hope he can hook you up with some good deals.


----------



## mike mike

Hey guys i want to Re tube my 6505+. I am kinda thinking of KT66's because of the appeal of having more midrange and retaining a tight bottom end. i play technical death metal, i keep my gain low for a tight sound, and the amp is pretty bright, so maybe something to help tame the highs. what can you suggest?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Cody. What did you want to know about the 6CA7's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> Hey guys i want to Re tube my 6505+. I am kinda thinking of KT66's because of the appeal of having more midrange and retaining a tight bottom end. i play technical death metal, i keep my gain low for a tight sound, and the amp is pretty bright, so maybe something to help tame the highs. what can you suggest?



Maybe you should look at these>>>

Mullard EL34

I would also look at the EH 6CA7 for your application.


----------



## RiverRatt

mike mike said:


> Hey guys i want to Re tube my 6505+. I am kinda thinking of KT66's because of the appeal of having more midrange and retaining a tight bottom end. i play technical death metal, i keep my gain low for a tight sound, and the amp is pretty bright, so maybe something to help tame the highs. what can you suggest?



I really like the old Tung-Sol 5881s. They are a little pricey on eBay right now, but if you can score a set they are sweet. I've never used a KT66, maybe someone else will chime in. What are you running in the preamp? Your preamp tube selection can go a long way toward taming treble, probably more so than the the power tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Cody. What did you want to know about the 6CA7's?



Sorry Marty.. I was super tired and ended up crashing..

Well.. When I was biasing them in the SLP today The lowest I could get the bias point was 51mA. But when I put the EL34s back in the bias was fine..


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> Maybe you should look at these>>>
> 
> Mullard EL34
> 
> I would also look at the EH 6CA7 for your application.



It is a 6L6 amp. i am probably going try try 6CA7's in my Marshall this year though, right now i run a few month old set of E34L that haven't been used as much as i would like them to have been. i heard TAD's are good for my application, but how would a KT66 sound?


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> It is a 6L6 amp. i am probably going try try 6CA7's in my Marshall this year though, right now i run a few month old set of E34L that haven't been used as much as i would like them to have been. i heard TAD's are good for my application, but how would a KT66 sound?



Sorry about that mike. If it were me, I would go with the TAD 6L6STR's over the KT66's. Those TAD's are clones of the best of three USA designs. (RCA, GE and Sylvania.)

What sort of clean are you expecting? Or is that important?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Sorry Marty.. I was super tired and ended up crashing..
> 
> Well.. When I was biasing them in the SLP today The lowest I could get the bias point was 51mA. But when I put the EL34s back in the bias was fine..



I assume that the 6CA7's biased up okay in your other amp(s)? The 6CA7's could be a little hot and the bias range on your amp might not handle it. However, the 6CA7 is a direct replacement for an EL34. It's either the 6CA7's or the bias circuit on the SLP.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I assume that the 6CA7's biased up okay in your other amp(s)? The 6CA7's could be a little hot and the bias range on your amp might not handle it. However, the 6CA7 is a direct replacement for an EL34. It's either the 6CA7's or the bias circuit on the SLP.



Hmm.. Well.. The circuit worked fine on the EL34s. I had the trim pot all the way down on the 6AC7s and was getting 51mA. On the 34s I was getting 0-1. Maybe the 6AC7s a little hot?


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry about that mike. If it were me, I would go with the TAD 6L6STR's over the KT66's. Those TAD's are clones of the best of three USA designs. (RCA, GE and Sylvania.)
> 
> What sort of clean are you expecting? Or is that important?



basically right now, in that amp, the clean is shit. i would love an improvement in that area. but it is the preamp, not the power section for the most part. you can put the preamp down alot, but then you can't get it very loud. what would a KT66 do for my sound? would it help the amp open up better with more mids? will the TADs tame my high end a little bit?



MartyStrat54 said:


> I assume that the 6CA7's biased up okay in your other amp(s)? The 6CA7's could be a little hot and the bias range on your amp might not handle it. However, the 6CA7 is a direct replacement for an EL34. It's either the 6CA7's or the bias circuit on the SLP.



my other amp is a Mkiii, so i could probably bias it and get it there, but it will be a while. these E34L's are pretty new and unfortunately i haven't got a whole lot of playing on the marshall lately. my amp needs biased though. i think it is running hot


----------



## cagamp1

mike mike said:


> basically right now, in that amp, the clean is shit.


 
*Mike*, I've been following this a little. What are you comparing your 6505 to...other 6505's or other amps in general like your 2500?


----------



## mike mike

cagamp1 said:


> *Mike*, I've been following this a little. What are you comparing your 6505 to...other 6505's or other amps in general like your 2500?



i am not, i am just saying that my 6505 is bright. this tube thing is all for my 6505. its a combo, but i just want to mess with the sound. make it less bright, more mids, smoother over all and tighter. it does that very well, but it could be improved. i don't know, but maybe all 6505s are bright


----------



## cagamp1

mike mike said:


> i am not, i am just saying that my 6505 is bright. this tube thing is all for my 6505. its a combo, but i just want to mess with the sound. make it less bright, more mids, smoother over all and tighter. it does that very well, but it could be improved. i don't know, but maybe all 6505s are bright


 
Well, that is what I was thinking too. From what I've seen and heard of 6505/5150's, they are pretty much high gain period. Even the cleaner sounds I have heard from them seemed to be overdriven.

I think someone posted a review of CP KT66's on another thread indicating their character...TubeStore maybe...keep in mind that they are probably only speaking of current production. Old stock KT66 are expensive.

TAD STRs look interesting and are modeled after characteristics of the old GC's. So, some old stock Sylvania, Philips or RCA would be a good choice as well. I have also been itching to get a set of SED =C= 6L6GC's. Everone seems to love =C= but I have heard no mention of the GC's.


----------



## mike mike

cagamp1 said:


> Well, that is what I was thinking too. From what I've seen and heard of 6505/5150's, they are pretty much high gain period. Even the cleaner sounds I have heard from them seemed to be overdriven.
> 
> I think someone posted a review of CP KT66's on another thread indicating their character...TubeStore maybe...keep in mind that they are probably only speaking of current production. Old stock KT66 are expensive.
> 
> TAD STRs look interesting and are modeled after characteristics of the old GC's. So, some old stock Sylvania, Philips or RCA would be a good choice as well. I have also been itching to get a set of SED =C= 6L6GC's. Everone seems to love =C= but I have heard no mention of the GC's.



i've heard the winged C's are very good, but i also heard that they were very expensive compared with most current production tubes


----------



## cagamp1

mike mike said:


> i've heard the winged C's are very good, but i also heard that they were very expensive compared with most current production tubes


 
*From another review on SED 6L6GC:*
I got great responses, so I pulled the trigger and bought the Winged =C='s. I blame all of you. Flat out.
I put those tubes in my amp, and I was utterly shocked and dismayed, that these new production tubes delivered all the goods: Sweet Bell Harmonics, full, lush and rich blossoming of the notes delivery, and creamy gain!

Virginia Tube Audio $58.50
Torres Engineering $49.90
And any company advertising that will drop their price to match...he,he,eh.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I meant that in the most congratulatory way - jealousy just got in the way for a minute there! I can't believe that tube went for $5.


 
Well you didn't miss much. That $5 TS-5881 tube, $9 with shipping, tested at about 71-72% of new. Quick test, but good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> Well you didn't miss much. That $5 TS-5881 tube, $9 with shipping, tested at about 71-72% of new. Quick test, but good.



That means it has a least a solid year of use left in it. Them old power tubes die slow.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry it didn't work out, but for $9 it was worth a gamble. I've got an odd 5881 that tests pretty low, too. It's stronger mate just happened to match up perfectly with a single that I bought off eBay so I ended up with a pretty well matched pair. 

I was noticing last night that the recordings I did of the 5881s for that EL84/6V6/5881 thread didn't do them justice. They sound similar to the 6V6 in the clips, but in person they have that lower mid punch that hits you in the gut. That's something a 6V6 just can't do.

Have you ever run across any of these 6L6GCs? They appear to be MIJ RCA clones that have a single top getter instead of side getters. All I've found have black plates. They are the smoothest 6L6GCs that I have.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry it didn't work out, but for $9 it was worth a gamble.


 
Hey, it's alright. I have other low value 5881's to match it up to for testing/listening.

I kinda been itching for some Realistic tubes like that.

I do have these though and have to get around to testing & trying them out. 1956 black plates...quick test=like new.
View attachment 4583


----------



## RiverRatt

That pair of Realistics was in the back of the Ampeg GV-22 I picked up for $50. It came with a set of Sylvanias in it. I have no idea why - the MIJ tubes blow them out of the water. I also scored a smooth plate Tele ECC83 and a few more spare tubes in that deal. Sometimes the gods smile on you.


----------



## cagamp1

Now you makin want some even more.

The 1956 RCA BP's I got...match set, with boxes and (initial)test like new...$50.
My best score so far.  Happy, happy! Joy, joy!


----------



## mike mike

because i got some NOS Preamp tubes coming my way, i am thinking of getting some KT77s. Are gold lions the best? i'm sure nos KT's would be a fortune. and do you guys think radio shack would sell a bias meter?


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> Now you makin want some even more.
> 
> The 1956 RCA BP's I got...match set, with boxes and (initial)test like new...$50.
> My best score so far.  Happy, happy! Joy, joy!



HELLYEAH! I just got a call from an old HAM radio nut who wants to hook up and trade tubes. He knows his stuff, so I'm not going to walk away with a trunkload of tubes for $20, but damn, he has a lot of 6L6s, EL34s, EL84s, 12AX7s, 5881s, etc. He said he just likes to get together and swap tube with other tube nuts. This could be fun! I'm supposed to meet up with him Saturday afternoon. Of course, I'm next to flat broke right now. I may have to sell some blood between now and Saturday.


----------



## mike mike

RiverRatt said:


> HELLYEAH! I just got a call from an old HAM radio nut who wants to hook up and trade tubes. He knows his stuff, so I'm not going to walk away with a trunkload of tubes for $20, but damn, he has a lot of 6L6s, EL34s, EL84s, 12AX7s, 5881s, etc. He said he just likes to get together and swap tube with other tube nuts. This could be fun! I'm supposed to meet up with him Saturday afternoon. Of course, I'm next to flat broke right now. I may have to sell some blood between now and Saturday.



Awesome!! Goo luck maybe you will get lucky and get a few nice ones


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> HELLYEAH! I just got a call from an old HAM radio nut who wants to hook up and trade tubes. He knows his stuff, so I'm not going to walk away with a trunkload of tubes for $20, but damn, he has a lot of 6L6s, EL34s, EL84s, 12AX7s, 5881s, etc. He said he just likes to get together and swap tube with other tube nuts. This could be fun! I'm supposed to meet up with him Saturday afternoon. Of course, I'm next to flat broke right now. I may have to sell some blood between now and Saturday.


 
Happy swapping. Just don't bleed yourself dry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are people who pass away everyday that have large stashes of tubes. Imagine making an offer on say 1,000+ tubes?


----------



## cagamp1

There's a local guy I know who owns a company called Junk-B-Gone. You may have heard of it. They clean out houses and stuff for people. I am going to have to hit him up one day about giving me cracks at vintage stereo, ham eqp, console, speakers and such.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, do you remember selling me a couple of Russian power tubes a year or two ago? Were they 6P3S tubes? I can get about a dozen of those closely matched from a guy for $50. If the number I'm reading is a date code, they are from 1978. They aren't spec'd as high as a 6L6GC, but the guy has been running them in some HAM equipment with 600v on the plates and says they'll handle up to 800?!? I'm just wondering if I should snag them.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, do you remember selling me a couple of Russian power tubes a year or two ago? Were they 6P3S tubes? I can get about a dozen of those closely matched from a guy for $50. If the number I'm reading is a date code, they are from 1978. They aren't spec'd as high as a 6L6GC, but the guy has been running them in some HAM equipment with 600v on the plates and says they'll handle up to 800?!? I'm just wondering if I should snag them.


 
Wow, I thought the 6P3S tubes were similar to some 6L6WGA or 6L6GB's.
20-21 watt plates at ~400V

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/084/6/6P3S.pdf
shows plate at 400V max and 20.5W max


----------



## RiverRatt

The guy called them a 6L6GC. I dunno. I think I may save the Tung-Sol 5881s and go with this setup for awhile. They aren't bad at all.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> The guy called them a 6L6GC. I dunno. I think I may save the Tung-Sol 5881s and go with this setup for awhile. They aren't bad at all.


 
Checkout the link I added.

http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/084/6/6P3S.pdf

400V @ 20.5W plate


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, do you remember selling me a couple of Russian power tubes a year or two ago? Were they 6P3S tubes? I can get about a dozen of those closely matched from a guy for $50. If the number I'm reading is a date code, they are from 1978. They aren't spec'd as high as a 6L6GC, but the guy has been running them in some HAM equipment with 600v on the plates and says they'll handle up to 800?!? I'm just wondering if I should snag them.



I would have to check to see if I have any of those left. I believe they were 6N3C's. I thought what I sold you was a Russian equivalent to a 6L6GC. If you can get 12 6L6's that handle 600V and are matched, $50 sounds like an awesome deal.


----------



## demonufo

Damn, I'm drooling everywhere;

2 X 6550 TUBES ORIGINAL TUNG-SOL ,USA ,NOS, NIB. on eBay (end time 28-Mar-11 17:43:36 BST)

Item no: 140517354233


----------



## demonufo

And on the other hand, what is this guy smoking;

Vintage 1960's Matsushita 6BQ5 / EL84 NOS 9 Pieces on eBay (end time 16-Mar-11 12:17:57 GMT)

Item no: 310288323492

Check the price FOR ONE TUBE!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, if I could get $55 each for $15 tubes, I'd be doing it all day. Some sucker will bite. Considering that you can get NOS 6P14Ps all day for like $5, I don't see wasting a lot of money chasing EL84s. I just don't hear that much of a variation in tone from one EL84 to another, CP included. I actually prefer the old 1960s - 1970s 6P14Ps as they seem to have a little more chime and headroom.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I'd like to make $40 profit per tube. That would be sweet.

Well Ratt, we'll see how it goes in a few days. I'm going to list that matched quad of Telefunken EL84's and the matched quad of 1954 Amperex EL84's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good luck with 'em. I'm trying to hold on to stuff right now. Nothing seems to be moving. I got a sweet deal on a Digitech preamp last week that I'm hoping to flip but stuff's just not bringing what it was. I might keep it for awhile and play with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hear ya. Stuff is selling at a low ball price. I sold some amps and I took a loss. I finally sold the Mace. It had six, Sylvania Fat Boy 6L6GC tubes in it. I lucked out and got $325 for it. You know, I tried that Mace out and it was a pretty nice sounding amp for late 1970's technology. I have a Peavey Deuce and VTX Classic. The Classic uses two, 6L6's and is a pretty nice combo. However, there is no market right now for it. I can't even get $200 for it. The Deuce is just a smaller version of the Mace. The kid that bought the Mace just loved it. Those "Fat Boy" tubes should last three years of steady playing.


----------



## RiverRatt

There's a local mom & pop store here that has a classic and a Deuce. I saw the Deuce when it came in. It had old coin base tubes in it. No idea what they were, but the next time I saw the amp it was sporting a new set of EH. This is the same shop that wants $595 for a Marshall Split Fifty and $1,500 for a silver face Twin with luggage handles installed on the sides.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess they are hoping a customer will walk in and pay top dollar for their amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, remember those MIJ 6L6GC blackplates you tested for me last fall? Lori has a pair of them for $83.99 BIN on the Bay! Her prices are usually spot-on retail value, but I can't imagine these going for anywhere near that. These aren't even matched, and I've seen singles go for around $15. Am I missing something?

2 Vintage IEC & Realistic Japan 6L6 GC Stereo Tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

I haven't bought much from her as her prices are high. A lot has to do with what she paid for them. Sounds like she paid a premium price and is now trying to make up for it. I guess you never know what someone will pay for tubes.

Personally, I wouldn't pay that much.


----------



## Les Moore

Hi.

I´m trying frantically to understand the tubeworld, what tubes fit in what sockets in what amps and what sound they contribute to. Nowhere near yet. However, there seem to be a lot of you here, mainly Marty perhaps, that could use a chart I found. Posting a link here.
How to decode European valve numbers

Hope it´s useful to someone.
Keep rocking


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome Les. Just a reminder that this thread is available for any info regarding power tubes. I'm trying to keep it from getting buried and therefore becoming useless to the forum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If anyone has tried the new JJ tubes, the 844 or the 6CA7, I would like to hear about it.


----------



## gsf1200r

RiverRatt said:


> Any decent sounding EL34 and a pedal. Power tubes alone aren't going to get you into the brutality range. No shame in using a pedal - that's what most of the old school guys did. Robin Trower is one of my heroes. He's one of the few people who make me want to ditch my Les Paul and pick up a Strat. He has tone for days and it's all about boosting a good sounding Marshall with a good sounding pedal.



i checked both of my JCM's and the the the EL 34s i havent got the balls to put a pedal thru them it already has tone for days and its already loud as f---


----------



## Clammy

MartyStrat54 said:


> If anyone has tried the new JJ tubes, the 844 or the 6CA7, I would like to hear about it.



I just ordered a matched quad of JJ 6CA7s for one of my '73 Super Basses. I'll let you know what I think when I get em. Probably be a couple of weeks before they're here, and I have the time to install/bias them.

Cheers!


----------



## RickyLee

OK fellas. I am searching the net but getting nowhere, but I figured you guys would know this one. I have some Wing C EL34's with the numbers 01 06 on them which I am figuring is the date code? If so, is that YEAR MONTH? Or MONTH YEAR?


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> I hear ya. Stuff is selling at a low ball price. I sold some amps and I took a loss. I finally sold the Mace. It had six, Sylvania Fat Boy 6L6GC tubes in it. I lucked out and got $325 for it. You know, I tried that Mace out and it was a pretty nice sounding amp for late 1970's technology. I have a Peavey Deuce and VTX Classic. The Classic uses two, 6L6's and is a pretty nice combo. However, there is no market right now for it. I can't even get $200 for it. The Deuce is just a smaller version of the Mace. The kid that bought the Mace just loved it. Those "Fat Boy" tubes should last three years of steady playing.




I had Peavey Mace once. First thing I did to it was put casters on it....heavy! Great amp. I used a pedal board back in the 80's so it was great for that.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> If anyone has tried the new JJ tubes, the 844 or the 6CA7, I would like to hear about it.



I'm using the el844s in my dsl 401. Lost a little volume, but picked up some bottom end. Amp sounds fuller and less fizzy.


----------



## sccloser

I got my amp-head bias probe today! Had the mkiii 2500 chassis out waiting on its arrival. My plate V was 459. I had a MOJO matched pair of JJ el34s but the were off 4mv. I had another matched pair of JJ's...off by 5 mv. From what I understand a good match is within 3 mv. I had a matched pair of GT's that I got for $25 a while back. I put them in, they were within 2mv. I left them in and set the bias to 38ma. The bias before I adjusted it ranged from 19 to 21 ma on all the sets! Pretty low. Got the amp back together just in time for practice. I usually play the 2205, but I set up the mkiii tonight with a boss eq in the effects loop for a boost. Ran the vol/gain at 3, gain sens. off, bass 6, mid 5, treb 4, pres off. It rocked! My goal was to get it sounding more like the 800 and I got it pretty close. Having fun tweaking Marshalls! Especially when I can hear the results.

I'll probably get some =C= for it soon. I still have a pair of matched Svetlana's from about 1999 for the 800. Currently running some old Teslas in it and they'll stay as long as I can get the good out of 'em.


----------



## RiverRatt

As high as Winged C's are right now, you could get a set of RFT EL34s for just a little more. I love mine. Been in the DSL for going on 2 years and they haven't drifted more than a few tenths and they sound killer in a Marshall.


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> OK fellas. I am searching the net but getting nowhere, but I figured you guys would know this one. I have some Wing C EL34's with the numbers 01 06 on them which I am figuring is the date code? If so, is that YEAR MONTH? Or MONTH YEAR?



Anyone know this one?


----------



## RiverRatt

On the old ones (back when they were still Svetlana) it was YY WW. I'd assume they still use the same system.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> On the old ones (back when they were still Svetlana) it was YY WW. I'd assume they still use the same system.



OOPS!

So it is YEAR and WEEK?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Some people say KT77 is equivalent to 6L6's. Others say KT66's are equivalent to 6L6's...

I have a 50W JCM900 with Electroharmonix 6L6's, and I was trying to see if I could upgrade it in a way.
Can someone help me out with this. Would it sound better if I swap the 6L6 with KT66/KT77?


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone on here ever tried the Matsushita EL34s? There's a pair on eBay right now. I've heard them compared to XF4 Mullards. I'd like to hear some feedback before I bid.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Has anyone on here ever tried the Matsushita EL34s? There's a pair on eBay right now. I've heard them compared to XF4 Mullards. I'd like to hear some feedback before I bid.



Doing a search I see they are compared to the Mullards due to using their tooling. From what I've read so far from the web:

These were made during the 60's and 70's by Matsushita (I think) and are very nice tubes. They can be identified by a single seam at the top of the tube. They appear with different names on them such as Raytheon, Westinghouse, Radio Shack, etc. They are known to be very good tubes which rival the quality of Mullard, etc. After all, the Matsushita plant was set up by Philips, the parent company of Mullard.


Sounds as if it would be like buying the equivalent to a nice set of Mullard's if they are in good shape...


----------



## solarburn

Check this thread out Alan if you haven't already:

MetroAmp.com Forum &bull; View topic - Matsushita EL34 / 6CA7

I agree with Terry and others that the late '60s, '70s Matsushita EL34s with the top seam and ridges on the plates are very good. I would happily use them if I didn't have '50s-'60s British, Dutch and W. German EL34s. 

BTW- It's certainly true that Matsushita Electric (which dated to WWI era and before) acquired extensive technical capabilites from Dutch Philips (not just Mullard) starting with major "technical cooperation" agreement that set up Matsushita Electronic Corporation in return for 35% of the Japanese company's equity in 1952, and that extensive Philips EL34 technology was provided to help make these (and other) tubes. However, internet-spread notions that Matsushita somehow took over after Mullard quit making EL34s (some versions saying after Mullard quit making Xf2s, some like the above ad implying after Mullard stopped making EL34s entirely) are incorrect. This is easily shown by those thousands of Matsu 6CA7/EL34s with 1970, 71, even earlier red RCA date codes (with actual manufacture likely a year or more before that, based on RCA-branded Blackburn examples from the same time period). That's years before Mullard Xf2 production stopped, and more than a decade before Mullard EL34 production stopped entirely. Although I'm not positive when Matsushita production ended, one Japanese source that's available implies it was around 1978; if so, that's a little before Blackburn stopped. It would be interesting to know details of what Philips did provide for the Matsu EL34s, design, setting up production, etc. There are some earlier versions of Matsushita EL34s and GZ34s that look different than the '70s ones, too. 

Although I haven't used single sets continuously for years at a time, my impression and that of others who have is that the Matsushitas EL34s are very long lasting as well as sounding good , maybe as a result of their Philips lineage. 

Steve at Angela told me on the phone once that he'd spoken with an older worker from Marantz, and they had wanted to use Matsushitas as factory replacements for Marantz 8Bs, etc., but were concerned about the stigma of "Made In Japan" at that time. It was before so many Americans drove Hondas, Datsuns and Toyotas! 

Jeff W.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good info, Joe. Thanks!


----------



## MM54

Anyone have any interesting single EL34's they're looking to off?


----------



## RiverRatt

I gave away a handful a few weeks ago to a HAM radio guy, but they were all Sovtek EL34G's - not considered a good tone tube. I've got a pair of old Svetlanas (= Winged C) that I'm not using. They still have some life left in them.


----------



## MM54

I just finished building my Single-ended EL34 amp, I figure since I don't need pairs or anything, and I only need single tubes, I may be able to roll power tubes 

I'll let you know about the Winged C's.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Any suggestions for a quad of kt66s? MarshallMann said he could fit the Genelex in his 6100 just barely.

P.S. I just bought a 6100LM


----------



## MartyStrat54

Running power tubes real close together can spell trouble. Just thought I'd comment on that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Interesting post, JOE. Thanks for the info.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Running power tubes real close together can spell trouble. Just thought I'd comment on that.



Other than heat, what are the problems?


----------



## solarburn

Yeah anytime guys. I found it interesting as well...


----------



## Lowdown

Whoah! Onto my 2nd. night of reading and only up page 40.
I have to post this though and ask for your help and thoughts on putting these into my 2203. Item #300549183974 if you can't find it.

I have a Tung Sol RI in V1,Mullard RI in V2 and EH in V3. EH EL34's are in at the moment and are only 6 months old.
I love the sound I have at the moment,but have noticed the RFT's getting good wraps,so need your thoughts on safely running these and if these particular tubes are good as I haven't quite gotten my head around the readings etc. yet.

Thanx in advance.

GREAT thread!

Shaun.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Valve Arts kt66's any good?


----------



## RiverRatt

Lowdown said:


> Whoah! Onto my 2nd. night of reading and only up page 40.
> I have to post this though and ask for your help and thoughts on putting these into my 2203. Item #300549183974 if you can't find it.
> 
> I have a Tung Sol RI in V1,Mullard RI in V2 and EH in V3. EH EL34's are in at the moment and are only 6 months old.
> I love the sound I have at the moment,but have noticed the RFT's getting good wraps,so need your thoughts on safely running these and if these particular tubes are good as I haven't quite gotten my head around the readings etc. yet.
> 
> Thanx in advance.
> 
> GREAT thread!
> 
> Shaun.



I like my RFT's a lot. So far, they've been very solid and reliable. $199 is about the average selling price here. Not a great deal, but not a bad one, either.

Gtarzan, I don't know of any of the regulars here who are running KT66 tubes. You might try posting a thread in the Workbench.


----------



## Gtarzan81

RiverRatt said:


> I like my RFT's a lot. So far, they've been very solid and reliable. $199 is about the average selling price here. Not a great deal, but not a bad one, either.
> 
> Gtarzan, I don't know of any of the regulars here who are running KT66 tubes. You might try posting a thread in the Workbench.


 
Thanks brother. Will do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Other than heat, what are the problems?



Well that's the problem...heat. Once it builds up in the tube you can end up either blowing a fuse or a tube(s).


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. I figured that must be it, but I wasn't sure.


----------



## Lowdown

Thanx for that River. 

What do the readings that seller gives for those tubes actually mean? I am totally new to this as you can tell and have so far read some tubes can't take the plate voltage(?) 2203's put out.

Has anyone dealt with this seller?


----------



## Lowdown

Nvm...after reading some more (my eyes are starting to bleed!) I'm going to try Brian Sanborn and pay the extra $10-20,as he gets the thumbs up.

Though those EH6CA7's sound tempting...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm running the EH6CA7's in two of my amps. I love them and so far no problems.

Sanborn is the guy for RFT's.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that's the problem...heat. Once it builds up in the tube you can end up either blowing a fuse or a tube(s).



Hey guys, just chiming in here. Over a year of regular use with the KT-66's with no heat related problems so far.


----------



## solarburn

Here's one of my fav Russian EL84's losing itself in my Monza. You can see its the tube cause its red plating in either slot where the other one doesn't. The Monza is cathode biased.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ouch. Have you checked the voltages just to be safe?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ouch. Have you checked the voltages just to be safe?



Me no how...?LOL

The amps actually with Z repair cause it started to sound wimpy. I hadn't noticed the Power tube red plating before hand but I had other 84's in it too and thought something amiss. Don from Z repair sent me the pic with his initial findings. He's getting into the chassis next to make sure nothing else is wrong. 

Don put in some fresh 84's and felt it sounded like it should. We'll see what happens next.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's hard to call. When you get it back, run every EL84 you've got through it and make sure they are OK. When Jet City had my PicoValve they insisted nothing was wrong with it and sent it back with a couple of hand-picked tubes that worked with it to prove their point. Meanwhile I was still having problems with EL34s arcing and 6V6s redplating. Not saying that Dr. Z is that way, but I'm a little jaded after dealing with a few customer service claims like that.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's hard to call. When you get it back, run every EL84 you've got through it and make sure they are OK. When Jet City had my PicoValve they insisted nothing was wrong with it and sent it back with a couple of hand-picked tubes that worked with it to prove their point. Meanwhile I was still having problems with EL34s arcing and 6V6s redplating. Not saying that Dr. Z is that way, but I'm a little jaded after dealing with a few customer service claims like that.



I hear ya! I specifically told him I had ran other 84's that were known good and still felt it seemed a bit enemic. Yeah I'll be encouraging Don to be thorough and he seems to be motivated to make sure. Keep yo' fingers


----------



## RiverRatt

Good luck man.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I hope you get it all worked out. That Monza is hard for me to figure out. It seems to be just plum hard on tubes. I wonder what sort of voltage is on that amp.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Having just picked up my brother in laws hardly used 1999 dsl 201 I thought id get a couple of spare sets of power amps valves (ah only 2 valves to replace when they go south), so bought a pair of mullard labelled holland made el84, put them and and they bias up ok, but at the upper end of the limit of the pot. 


This being an older 201 marshall suggest 0.675 V, they just get to 0.660 V. They sound fine, but the original Ei el84 that were in there seem much stronger even though they have been in there running for 12 years.

Heres a pic of the Mullards.






I also found a pair of el84 by mullard but designated CV2975, the military version.

Popped these in today and I really can tell a big difference, these had more omph than the yellow labelled mullards and biased up arounf 0.660 V at arounf half way on the bias pot. Now this may be all in the mind but I found them to be a much clearer, fuller tone. Cant get a bad sound out of them (with sensible EQ settings) even the totally over the top overdrive channel has more life to it now, its less compressed, more grit and hair to it.

Really liking being able to push the power section all the way up to get the chime and sparkle of the el84 then rasing the gain on both green and red to taste.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd eBay the yellow label ones and keep the Ei's around for a spare. I've got to get one of those amps someday. How much headroom have you got with it?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I'd eBay the yellow label ones and keep the Ei's around for a spare. I've got to get one of those amps someday. How much headroom have you got with it?




I may just well do that. Headroom, well with the master volume dimed I dare not turn it up past 2 on the green channel (clean) in house, plus I would be deaf if i did, of course with the master opened wide up things are not squeaky clean, it have a nice bite to it.

If I crank the clean channel volume up it gets to 6-7 before it starts to get crunchy, but again I dare not push the master then as it starts to make the house wobble. This is running it through an Orange 2x12 loaded with v30s.

Used it last sunday with the full band, just the combo and had no trouble being heard above the drummer with it on super clean, i was not really pusing it at all, and this was with the yellow labelled mullards in.

Dont really see the 201 coming up very often in the UK. I prefer it to the 401 I had (other guitarist in the band now has this), if only from the cheaper re-valving aspect.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds nice. I've been thinking about getting rid of my DSL50 half stack and getting a smaller combo, like a 2266 maybe. I'll have to check out a 201 if I can find it. They aren't very common around here, either.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have an odd GE 6CA7 from that tube buy a couple of weeks ago. I'm going to try it matched up with some of my RFT and other EL34s. Any reason why this won't work if both tubes bias up within range?


----------



## RickyLee

Anyone here have any experience with various power tubes in an early 70's Ampeg V4?

I have the old RCA 7027A's with the side getters in there right now. They test good and sound healthy. But after seeing the prices on the old 7027A's I want to pull those out and stash them away for the time being. Even more so as I am doing some work on this thing and powering on and off quite a bit. I can't afford to spend that much $$ for 7027's right now. Anyone with experience on these beastly amps knows they run with 500V to 540V on the power tube plates. So that fact alone has me limited on what I can install safely. 

I was thinking about trying the new JJ 7027's but then I read that they are just a re-pinned JJ 6L6GC. And the JJ 7027 and 6L6GC are only rated at 500V plates 450V screens anyway. What good is a 7027 tube that is only rated at 500V on the plates? And so much for that extra headroom of the 35W as well. And I can't find any data sheets on the new Sovtek 7027 either. I am not a huge fan of Sovtek power tubes and their tone to be honest. But then I did read that people have been dropping in Sovtek 5881WXT's in place of the 7027A in their old Ampegs without no issues. And it reduces the overall headroom for a bit of earlier power tube breakup. 

Anyone know the data specs on those Sovtek 5881WXT's? 

I will eventually mod the bias circuit to an adjustable type. And I might even spec this thing out to run EL34's as well. I would think Wing C EL34's should handle the task in this beast. I was thinking along the lines of going with a 6L6 though to keep the amp somewhat in it's original tonal state. Wing C 6L6GC's are rated just high enough. And I was also interested in the new re-issue Tung Sol 6L6GC STR, but I can't find any data sheets on them. I only read that they are good for 500V, but it did not state screen voltage specs ect.

Has anyone here tried these new Tung Sol 6L6GC STR's? They are quite cheap on the price as well.

I am also leaning towards trying KT66's, KT77's or KT88's. But along with the EL34's I am concerned about the extra heater current draw.


----------



## RickyLee

I just read some good info on the RUBY STR-007/6L6GC. Guitar Center carries them for $49 a quad! For that price, that would be a great bang them up deal.

Anyone know anything about these Ruby 6L6's? Mainly the plate and screen voltage specs? And there's another Ruby 6L6 - MSTR? I am trying to avoid dropping the big money right now for the Wing C 6L6GC until later on down the road. Obviously, I would think the Wing C 6L6GC would be the best new production choice out there right now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a couple of used 7027A's that I could let go of pretty cheap, but you probably need four, don't you? 

With the plates running that high, I'd say NOS 6L6GC's would be your best bet. I've heard that those 7027A Ampegs are hell on tubes. I don't know if any of the CP stuff could keep up for long. I don't know the 5881WXT specs, but I've had a couple of Fender amps that had those in when I got them. They both ran at around 500V on the plates and the Sovteks seemed to be up to it.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a couple of used 7027A's that I could let go of pretty cheap, but you probably need four, don't you?
> 
> With the plates running that high, I'd say NOS 6L6GC's would be your best bet. I've heard that those 7027A Ampegs are hell on tubes. I don't know if any of the CP stuff could keep up for long. I don't know the 5881WXT specs, but I've had a couple of Fender amps that had those in when I got them. They both ran at around 500V on the plates and the Sovteks seemed to be up to it.



Thanks for the offer. Figure out what you want for them as well as let me know what they are exactly, and send me a PM. I could use two possibly as I was thinking about running it in half power mode with my VariAC at 110V supply.


----------



## cylon185

Hi guys,

Any idea of what these are ?
Any good?






Cheers,


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

cylon185 said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Any idea of what these are ?
> Any good?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers,



look like RFTs to me


----------



## MM54

Those are the RI "Mullards" made by New Sensor. They're just CP tubes under the Mullard name, which NS bought a while ago.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> look like RFTs to me



That's probably because New Sensor has been copying the RFT EL34 since they came out with the Sovtek EL34G. Maybe they'll get it right one of these days.

Here's a Sovtek EL34G that I took out of my old Laney AOR.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A "real" 7027 is as powerful as a 6550. It is a 35 watt rated tube. A NOS 7027 is rated at 600V on the plate and 500V on the screen. I think your best bet is finding some NOS tubes or do a 6550 conversion and maybe a different PT. 

Isn't that amp a "dual rail" design? If so, it might be easy to drop the PT HV with a PT that has lower HV output. You will have to see what the screens are running. This is very important. Does it have two PT's? One is for the plates and the other is for the screens. Check this out. 6550's can only take 400 on the screens. If the Ampeg is running higher screen voltages, than a 6550 is out of the question. The 6550 can take 600V on the plates. A 6550 with 600 on the plates and 300 on the screens will put out 100W in a Push/Pull Class AB1 Amplifier.

However, once you go with alternative tubes, you will change the voicing on the amp. 

It could be worse. It could use 8417's like my old Randall. Those tubes are really hard to find and demand serious money.


----------



## RickyLee

MartyStrat54 said:


> A "real" 7027 is as powerful as a 6550. It is a 35 watt rated tube. A NOS 7027 is rated at 600V on the plate and 500V on the screen. I think your best bet is finding some NOS tubes or do a 6550 conversion and maybe a different PT.
> 
> Isn't that amp a "dual rail" design? If so, it might be easy to drop the PT HV with a PT that has lower HV output. You will have to see what the screens are running. This is very important. Does it have two PT's? One is for the plates and the other is for the screens. Check this out. 6550's can only take 400 on the screens. If the Ampeg is running higher screen voltages, than a 6550 is out of the question. The 6550 can take 600V on the plates. A 6550 with 600 on the plates and 300 on the screens will put out 100W in a Push/Pull Class AB1 Amplifier.
> 
> However, once you go with alternative tubes, you will change the voicing on the amp.
> 
> It could be worse. It could use 8417's like my old Randall. Those tubes are really hard to find and demand serious money.



Hey Marty!

Checking to see if you were posting that info for me?

I have a question for you or anyone else that would know: What is the two letter date coding translation on the old RCA 7027A's or other RCA valves for that matter? 

I am looking at a quad of allegedly of very pricey NOS RCA 7027A's with a date code of CZ. Seller claims they are from the 60's.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Just got these 4 for my dsl201 (already have 4 spare sets, so now have 6!!) but at this price i could not resist. cost me £8.50 for the 4, plus £2.50 postage 

From what ive read they are well liked.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, those are supposed to be really nice EL84's. I never knew that Telam (Polam) used the metal tag like Tungsram. Nice score!


----------



## Michael. L.

RickyLee said:


> I just read some good info on the RUBY STR-007/6L6GC. Guitar Center carries them for $49 a quad! For that price, that would be a great bang them up deal.
> 
> Anyone know anything about these Ruby 6L6's? Mainly the plate and screen voltage specs? And there's another Ruby 6L6 - MSTR? I am trying to avoid dropping the big money right now for the Wing C 6L6GC until later on down the road. Obviously, I would think the Wing C 6L6GC would be the best new production choice out there right now.



Go the Genalex
I replaced my EL34's from Winged C's to KT77 Genalex-current stock and amazed me-100 watt and my 50 watt plexis never sounded so good
Cheers, Mick from OZ!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Hey Marty!
> 
> Checking to see if you were posting that info for me?
> 
> I have a question for you or anyone else that would know: What is the two letter date coding translation on the old RCA 7027A's or other RCA valves for that matter?
> 
> I am looking at a quad of allegedly of very pricey NOS RCA 7027A's with a date code of CZ. Seller claims they are from the 60's.



Yes, that was for you.

CZ? That sounds like a LOT Code. It isn't a date code. Are the 7027A's the one's I saw on EBAY?


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, here's a mystery pair of EL84's. They are clearly the same manufacture, one is marked Westinghouse JAPAN and the other is a Pro/Comm marked ENGLAND. They don't have any top seams, and they have the little numbered tag on the post like Tungsram used. Also, in addition to the top getter flash, there is also heavy flashing the length of the plates. They both test good and strong and are a pretty close match. Any ideas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

How many companies used the metal lot code tag? Tunsgram and Telam? Are they Telam's?

I would say early 70's maybe?


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I found some like them on eBay. Apparently they are really Tungsrams. Have a look:

MATCHED QUAD OF NOS TUNGSRAM GOLD PIN EL 84 POWER TUBES | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah baby, they are rare. $299? He might get a buyer, or sell two pairs.

Man, I think it is time that I sell my matched quad of 1954 Amperex EL84's and
quad of Telefunken EL84's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I might have to sell these. They were in that huge lot of tubes I got a few weeks ago. I paid $1 apiece for forty-two tubes that I got to hand-pick. I thought I'd sell my 5751's but then I tried them in my HRDV. The Sylvania black plates may be the most musical-sounding tube I've ever used. I sent Joe one to try in the Monza and I think the preliminary tests are pretty positive


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a 5751 in most cases is overbuilt compared to a 12AX7. They are very clear sounding with a fairly decent gain capability. I've used a lot in Fenders and the clean channel was dripping chimes and bells.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm running all Sylvania in the Fender. I've got a 5751 in V1, a black plate 12AX7 in V2 and a gray plate in V3. The power tubes are a couple of Sylvania 6L6GCs that will only bias up to 38mV but they sound great, better than the RCA's and my old MIJ black plates. I did a bunch of mods that dread1 turned me on to, mainly replacing the cheap caps with orange drops and Mallorys. It turned the amp into a real tone machine. I played the theatre thing with it this summer and it was great for a '50's rock tone. The overdrive channel really benefited from the change, too. I had read a lot of bad things about the 2x12 Hot Rod Deville but some NOS tubes and the cap mods really made it a usable, versatile amp. The gain channel is even usable now. I was looking at a Vibroverb RI but I think the HRDV with the mods is right up there with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm glad you got a nice amp to play. I almost got a Hot Rod DeVille, but I bought my first DSL401 instead. I thought the tone difference was jaw dropping.


----------



## solarburn

The 5751 Alan sent me are chimes and bells. Goes into harmonic feed back easily. Makes it fun to hang onto notes and let it sing hehe.

You guys know my fav 84's are the RFT's I have still. Then those cool Roosky 84's that sound great in both my EL 84 amps. More headroom on those but still have a nice break up saturation wise. Not stiff or sterile at all. So nice cleans with good break up. Best of both worlds really.

These do the same as Marty's. I have them in my NT right now. Spendy though...

http://thetubestore.com/preferred7189.html


----------



## johnfv

Hello my fellow tube sniffers!  Jumping on the 5751 love here - I've been rolling tubes in my JCA20H, mostly to get a more "vintage" (lower) gain structure. Currently I have a NOS JAN-Phillips 5751 in V1, EH 12AY7 in V2 and my good old NOS Bell & Howell 12AU7 as PI. Sounds fantastic! 
The NOS tubes I got from Marty (Mullard in V1 and Black Plate in V2) on my 2204 HW still sound like magic. I've also been pleased with the CP "Mullard" I have, not quite as good as the NOS but still a very similar character.
YMMV...

EDIT: Oops... didn't realize I was posting in the Power tubes thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's OK. I forget it too, sometimes


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Preferred Series 7189 (Premium EL84)



They may be a little pricey, but damn they are nice. I have recommended them for many customers and no complaints.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> They may be a little pricey, but damn they are nice. I have recommended them for many customers and no complaints.



Yeah. They sound great. More headroom. Cheaper than my RFT's...oh and a 6 month extended warranty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd like to try them in my 401, but I have NOS RCA's in it and it is working great, so no need to mess with it.

I can't believe that 401's are going for $350. Talk about taking a dump in value.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's not just 401's. A couple of years ago I'd have sold my DSL50 quick for $700, now they are going for $500 to $600 tops. Fuckin' economy...

I'm waiting for some free time to check out those Tungsram EL84's I discovered. I've got a Crate Vintage Club 20 that is a pretty good sounding 2xEL84 amp. Seems like there was even an 18-watt clone mod for those at one time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's true about amps, but the price of tubes is going up.

It's getting very hard to find good, used tubes. The price on them is what an end-user would pay. I was at one time paying $12 to $20 for a single tube. Now it is $35 to $50. Then you have to mark it up to make it all worthwhile and you have a $70 tube.

As I said before, I'm not going to retire as a tube seller. I'll probably do it for about another year. It is very time consuming.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a bunch of tubes I need to sell but I can't get myself geared up to do it.


----------



## fbermaguitars

good morning
i am the one from "kt88 club",,i think if you play lowtuned metal
it is a must have this ones,,gives more presence on the 6th string
and the sound do not sink when you play with A tuning
i had this problem with many amps,and no longer
it is very interesting matter,i have 2 lead 2000 jcm 800 and into one
sextet of kt88 tesla in the other sextet of 6550 nos svetlana,
i do not think the 6550 are worst,this tube many times is
being changed by kt88 but if you prefer a fat natural sounding
not so powerfull but yes more "guitarristic"the choice it is 6550
kt 88 are clinically clean but more hifi sounding

thanks



steelhorse said:


> Hey Marty since the 6550 and the KT88's are essentially the same tube )I realize the KT=kinkless triode) why are they considered as different tonally as they are?
> 
> They're not even separated as being part of the same family but different but they are considered one in the same by many dealers.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's true about amps, but the price of tubes is going up.
> 
> It's getting very hard to find good, used tubes. The price on them is what an end-user would pay. I was at one time paying $12 to $20 for a single tube. Now it is $35 to $50. Then you have to mark it up to make it all worthwhile and you have a $70 tube.
> 
> As I said before, I'm not going to retire as a tube seller. I'll probably do it for about another year. It is very time consuming.



I got an email from tubemonger about their prices going up on the RFT 12AX7's and some others due to supply. We're there now. Its happening. No get'n around it either except the occasional estate/garage sale find. How bout a nice pile of military stock that was over looked till now...I'm dream'n. Some store that has a couple of boxes full waiting for one of us to come find hehe. Course if that was the case I'd sell them and get me a plexi...yeah!

ok I'm awake now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I ran into an old dude at an indoor flea market this afternoon. He sells stereo equipment and similar electronics. I asked him if he ever dealt with any tubes or tube gear, and he said not since he used to work on tube guitar amps. He has a big box of tubes in a storage building that he says are just like they came from the factory. He's going to call me when he finds them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm dream'n. Some store that has a couple of boxes full waiting for one of us to come find hehe. Course if that was the case I'd sell them and get me a plexi...yeah!
> 
> ok I'm awake now.



I wish I could help you find a Plexi. If I die, I'll will my JMP 2203 to you. It's one ballsy SOB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> <SNIP>He has a big box of tubes in a storage building that he says are just like they came from the factory. He's going to call me when he finds them.



I hope he doesn't have like 200 bushel baskets in an old farm building to search through. It could take him years and he might not be really motivated to spend a lot of time looking.

Maybe he'll let you look. If he sold stereo equipment, he might have some special gear to "discover."


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I ran into an old dude at an indoor flea market this afternoon. He sells stereo equipment and similar electronics. I asked him if he ever dealt with any tubes or tube gear, and he said not since he used to work on tube guitar amps. He has a big box of tubes in a storage building that he says are just like they came from the factory. He's going to call me when he finds them.



Oh man hope its got good.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish I could help you find a Plexi. If I die, I'll will my JMP 2203 to you. It's one ballsy SOB.



Hehe. You keep on keep'n on my friend. Like I said in the preamp thread...buy more amps and then send me that 2203!LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh man hope its got good.



They are in a storage building. I haven't had a chance to check back in with him since.


----------



## MM54

I was at a flea market today, nothing of any use to me. The only thing remotely close was a late 60's GE tube radio with crap radio tubes in it I looked at for about 11 seconds.


----------



## RiverRatt

There's an RCA turntable at an antique mall nearby. They are asking $50 for it but I think it only has one 12AX7 and maybe a couple of 50C5's. Too rich for my blood.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like old consoles that use both 6SL7's and 12AX7's. What's that all about?

I still think a guitar amp with 6SL7's would be cool. What are they? 70mu? It would be like big 5751's in the amp.

When tubes were king, the manufacturers used all sort of variants. No telling what is in that old 1958 guitar amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

I may have a matched pair of lightly used RFT EL34's to move. If anyone is interested, send me a PM and I'll let you know in a few days.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I may have a matched pair of lightly used RFT EL34's to move. If anyone is interested, send me a PM and I'll let you know in a few days.



Did you get more or are these the ones you had already? These are great sounding/feeling EL 34's. I have a set still so I don't need them but if you do move them someone's gonna get a nice pair of EL 34's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, these are the ones that I got from Marty sometime back. They've been in the DSL but apparently aren't helping it sell. I'd be better off to reduce the price on the DSL and sell the RFT's separately. They are a solid matched pair and haven't drifted more than a few tenths since I got them.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, these are the ones that I got from Marty sometime back. They've been in the DSL but apparently aren't helping it sell. I'd be better off to reduce the price on the DSL and sell the RFT's separately. They are a solid matched pair and haven't drifted more than a few tenths since I got them.



Thought so. Yeah I wouldn't think twice about getting those. Mine sound great!


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish I could help you find a Plexi. If I die, I'll will my JMP 2203 to you. It's one ballsy SOB.



Better will it now...can't make a will after you are already dead. Always a catch....


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a nice matched pair of RFT EL34's in the classifieds if anyone's interested.


----------



## MM54

I saw those, Ratt. It's realllllly tempting but I don't know that I can justify it right now, and since I'm getting ready to go to college in August, the Marshall won't be getting much use at all for a while.

On the flip side, in 4 years, who knows what state the NOS market will be in 

Edit: I'm leaning towards buying them though, I'll let you know soon for sure. I figure even if they sit for 4 years, I'll have them then just as good.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's cool, Matt. Just let me know.


----------



## MM54

Well Ratt's selling of those tubes got me thinking and I decided I should stock up on NOS before I go off to college and have no chance to get any more (and by the time I'm out, the market will probably be stupidly expensive, or just kind of gone).

So, I got a tube in the mail today, it's a single, so it'll go in the CA10 (unless by some magic it matches up with some other random single I happen to get some time). What is it? I'm thinking (since it says E Germany) it's an RFT. It was relabeled for Realistic Lifetime; their logo is the only thing on the glass.

Here's some pictures:


----------



## RiverRatt

The base looks right. Does it have a dimple in the top of the glass?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It looks like an RFT to me.

Realistic had some pretty nice tubes for sale after the tube market went south. They sold a shit load of Ei's and Japanese tubes. RFT was still making tubes in the late 70's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I've got a few MIJ Realistic Lifetime 6L6's that rival the old RCA's, black plates and all.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The base looks right. Does it have a dimple in the top of the glass?



Yep, it's got a dimple. RFT it is for sure then, that means I can write on the box and bring the CA10 back out of the shop to test it out before putting it into 'storage'


----------



## sccloser

I got a pair of SLM Electronics Hot Rods EL 34's today made in Germany. They have a dimple on the top, like Siemens generally do. trying to upload a pic. Any ideas about these...I got them cheap and they are new, unused.


----------



## sccloser

Finally got the pic u/l'd/

I think they are maybe RFT's?

Go to my photo album here on the site to see bigger pic.


----------



## sccloser

I also ran across 3 GE Electronics 6550 tubes with metal bases, NOS, in white boxes. I can get them all fairly reasonable. Anyone need any of these?


----------



## MM54

I may be interested in one...


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I also ran across 3 GE Electronics 6550 tubes with metal bases, NOS, in white boxes. I can get them all fairly reasonable. Anyone need any of these?



Don't even ask - if you run across ANY NOS octal power tube that was ever used in guitar amps and you can get them cheap, get them. I'll guarantee someone can use them. You could move some GE 6550's on eBay in a hurry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...and that's the gospel truth.


----------



## sccloser

Hmm. He was asking $20 each..I think he had 3 maybe 4. I could probably get them for $15 each. I guess I should have gotten them. Don't know when I can catch him again.


----------



## sccloser

No comments on me knew el34's? I think they may be RFT's...just wanting some confirmation on that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> I also ran across 3 GE Electronics 6550 tubes with metal bases, NOS, in white boxes. I can get them all fairly reasonable. Anyone need any of these?



Somebody with a 50 watt 6550 amp would cream over those GE's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and if you look at them, make sure they have the GE "code" on the tube. They could be relabeled Tung-Sol's with a metal base. These were the best sounding 6550's.


----------



## sccloser

What code do I look for?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The GE will have (or should have) "188" printed on the tube. It should have an acid etch that is the tube number followed by a strange pattern of dots. If the tube has 6550 inside of a octagonal box, it is probably a 6550 Tung-Sol. Tung-Sol's EIA code was 322.

GE with the bold font and dots.






Tung-Sol EIA code and combined date code.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Sorry guys, I posted this in the Preamp tube thread by accident!!!

Hey Fellow glass hounds!!!!

Been away at Sound Garden, Queens of the Stone Age, Mastodon and The Meat Puppets in the George Amphitheater (amazing show and trip BTW!)

I have a CP El-34 question for ya.

I have these two pulls from re-tubes I did. I thought they were both =C=. But I just noticed that one has a slant (30 degree) getter and a slightly taller bottle (these came from an Orange Rockerverb as I recall) while the other has a 90 degree getter with a shorter bottle. The 90 degree shorter bottle came from an JVM.











Any idea what they truly are????

EDIT (SHIT!) - Sorry guys!!! This belongs in the Power amp tube thread!!!


----------



## dekzan

Please, is it ok to place KT66s on a JVM 210H ?? I read they suck more energy from the transformer 1300 against 900 other tubes do ?? The Vintage Modern comes with KT66s . Any comments ?


----------



## dekzan

Is it ok to plce KT66s on a JVM 210H ? The vintage modern comes with those. The tube store says 66s use higher energy from the transformer 1300 A against 900 A . Any comments ? Thanks!! It seems the Vintage Modern has a richer warmer brighter sound than the JVM


----------



## BluesRocker

dekzan said:


> Please, is it ok to place KT66s on a JVM 210H ?? I read they suck more energy from the transformer 1300 against 900 other tubes do ?? The Vintage Modern comes with KT66s . Any comments ?



You will have to modify the amp.. The JVM was built for EL34s/6CA7s/KT77s...

The VM was built for KT66s.. You would have to mod the VM to get 34s in it..


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> No comments on me knew el34's? I think they may be RFT's...just wanting some confirmation on that.



Sorry - I remember looking at those. Sometimes I'm a little forgetful. They look like RFT's to me. Short base, 4 staples on the plates. We could tell you 100% if you have a pic of the top of the tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> No comments on me knew el34's? I think they may be RFT's...just wanting some confirmation on that.



Do they have a dimple in the top of the tube?


----------



## ken361

Hey guys long time I bought a untested el84 RCA with a 7 day money back because he didnt have a tester, anyways bought it for 30 was asking 40 or best. It sounds good no problems but im trying to figure out how much use was on it. I notice it has some of the blue gas glowing, I know from past amps i had i would notice the blue gas after a month or so playing the amp and that might like that for a month or two longer. So im thinking maybe this tube has only used a short period of time maybe?? thx

http://


----------



## RiverRatt

No real way to tell how strong it is without putting it on a tester. The blue glow doesn't mean the tube is bad, just that it still has a little air in it. The blue usually clings to the inner surface of the glass. If the whole tube glows a fluorescent violet color, that's when it's got problems.


----------



## ken361

thx im just saying the blue glow might migh mean the the tube isnt used that much maybe. I notice on other amps the glow usually goes away after a few months in use


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do they have a dimple in the top of the tube?



yes, they have the dimple on top.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> thx im just saying the blue glow might migh mean the the tube isnt used that much maybe. I notice on other amps the glow usually goes away after a few months in use



No, it really means nothing. There's a web page devoted to The Blue Glow and they describe the effect much better than I can. Here's a quote:

_1) FLUORESCENCE. This type of glow is normally dark blue. It can appear outside the anode (plate), on the glass surface inside the bulb, and as spots on other parts inside the tube. The spots may have the appearance of stains, and in a way that's what they are. These are areas on the glass that have the properties to let the blue glow occur. According to the factory people at Emission Labs this is related to the surface resistance of the glass surface in vacuum. It is an indication for the presence of a vacuum, but no useful indicator. Vacuum is measured another way. Before closing of the tube glass, it is measured with a special meter, and after closing it can be estimated from electrical behavior of the tube. Vacuum can be not so good, and blue glow appears still. Not the smallest information about the tube functioning, quality or lifetime expectation can be derived from the fluorescence effects. It is not to be confused with ionization of small gas residue, which however does not light up the glass, but lights up the tube between the plates._

Here's the site if you want to check it out. It's one of the more cool tube-related sites I've found. Look down at the last two submitted pictures - I got published! 

Blue Glow in Electron tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> yes, they have the dimple on top.



Enjoy your RFT's!


----------



## sccloser

Funny, remember I was going to buy your RFT's but I missed them, now I got a pair for $20! I feel so special now!


----------



## ken361

you guys have recommendations on tubes for vox's el84 or 12ax7


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Funny, remember I was going to buy your RFT's but I missed them, now I got a pair for $20! I feel so special now!



I didn't realize that SLM was rebranding RFT's back then. I knew MESA did, but not them. I know that the Lee Jackson Ampeg VL heads were using NOS GE 6550's, at least they were in 1993 when I worked for a dealer and got to go spend a drunken weekend in St. Louis with the SLM crew.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> you guys have recommendations on tubes for vox's el84 or 12ax7



I wish I had one so I could give you some hands-on advice! That amp has been on my to-do list for awhile. The Amperex Holland EL84's are considered to be some of the best made. Tungsram EL84's go pretty high as well. I just sold a nice pair of them on eBay last month. I think I've got one Sylvania 6BQ5 and a pair of JJ's at the moment.


----------



## ken361

I put a RFT rectifier tube in,right now it has a tungsol v1 EI v2 lps PI and JJ power tubes. Been watching some RCA's for awhile. I could tell the RCA warmed up and smoothed the gain on my class 5


----------



## ken361

telsa any good?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> telsa any good?



RFT EL84's are nice Ken. My fav so far for warm smokey overdrive. They break up early so if clean headroom is more important than a good OD tone try a pair of the tubestores preferred series.

Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.


Preferred Series 7189 (Premium EL84)

EDIT: Never tried the Tesla's so I don't know.


----------



## ken361

i was looking at those RFT also. Tube store one any good??


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> i was looking at those RFT also. Tube store one any good??



I like the preferred series EL84's. They will give you more headroom all together. More volume. I put them in my Monza and now have them in my Night Train. I think they are better than my JJ's. Feel better and sound better. I disagree with others saying the PS are stiff. Sovtec 84's are stiff and sterile. The PS 84's are not. The OD on them is fat.


----------



## solarburn

Here:

This is the tube you want in just about every amp that calls for a 7189 or EL84. These tubes are bold, producing solid fundamental notes and shimmering harmonics. Don’t confuse these with any other EL84 on the market. These are Russian tubes built for Russia. To get the 7189 designation you build a tube that will handle both higher plate voltages and increased current. To handle those issues the glass has to be just as heavy duty.

If you are running older cathode biased amplifiers these tubes are about as good a choice as you can make for this kind of money. Many hours of testing in class A single ended amps and demanding push – pull circuits; such as the AC30, show it to be the way to go if your amp likes to eat tubes.

This tube is not fancy. It’s great sounding and well constructed for “professional” use. To qualify as a Select Series tube, thetubestore.com performs a full battery of tests and extra inspection to make sure you never receive a dud. The $$/tone ratio is excellent with this tube.

The Preferred Series 7189 tubes carry a 6 month extended warranty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn good tube. I highly recommend it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Same tube as the 1970's 6P14P?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Same tube as the 1970's 6P14P?



These are from the 80's.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> I put a RFT rectifier tube in,right now it has a tungsol v1 EI v2 lps PI and JJ power tubes. Been watching some RCA's for awhile. I could tell the RCA warmed up and smoothed the gain on my class 5



I'd put the Ei in V1. That's going to be your best tone tube of the bunch. Is the Tung-Sol a reissue or NOS? If it's a reissue, I'd try it in V2. The old ones are really smooth American-sounding tubes and not what I would think of as a Vox tube. I ran JJ EL84's in my Blackheart and I thought they were pretty good, probably the only JJ's I've tried that I really liked.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Preferred Series 7189 are old NOS Russian tubes that have been tested and relabeled.

However, this is not a bad thing as they are very well made tubes.


----------



## plexilespaul

hey marty and the guys...
need your pro guidance and i hope i am in the right thread and not highjacking anyone's thread
got a 2203 reissue that i need to open up (more beef). came stock with cp svetlana's (came stock from marshall).I changed the bias a little hotter (came from marshall biased very cold 29 ma) which helped a little and changed the preamp tubes which helped a lot (after experimenting a lot with different tubes and positions)- sylvania in v2 mullard in v1 (old production) and an old philips in v3.
what i am looking at right now is an ok tone. i have a set of matched el 34 l jj's i want to put in.
will that beef up my tone? should i be looking into different tubes? do power tubes make much of a tone difference?
thanks a lot


----------



## plexilespaul

anybody?


----------



## RiverRatt

avivoni said:


> hey marty and the guys...
> need your pro guidance and i hope i am in the right thread and not highjacking anyone's thread
> got a 2203 reissue that i need to open up (more beef). came stock with cp svetlana's (came stock from marshall).I changed the bias a little hotter (came from marshall biased very cold 29 ma) which helped a little and changed the preamp tubes which helped a lot (after experimenting a lot with different tubes and positions)- sylvania in v2 mullard in v1 (old production) and an old philips in v3.
> what i am looking at right now is an ok tone. i have a set of matched el 34 l jj's i want to put in.
> will that beef up my tone? should i be looking into different tubes? do power tubes make much of a tone difference?
> thanks a lot



I like the Groove Tubes EL34M for a beefy tone. The JJ E34L isn't a bad tube (definitely better than the Svetlanas) but IMO the EL34M's have better lows and are a smoother tube.


----------



## solarburn

I agree with Alan. The EL34M's are warm with rich mids. I also like the JJ34L's and EH6CA7's. I have been hearing some good things about the JJ 6CA7's but I haven't tried them. I have tried the others I've mentioned.


----------



## ddaxe

Don't let them freak you out. I have amps with NOS tubes that are the original equipment. If someone has a 10 year old set of Sovteks in their amp, I say, "It's very risky." If someone has 20 year old NOS tubes, I say, "Nice."

Hey Marty.. keep up the great work... the original tubes in my 87 silver Jub are still kicking, I have gigged quite alot over the last 20 years and I'm very surprised they have lasted this long.. but they do not glow quite as bright as the new 34's I have put in... the amp seems to be more crisp and tight I have kept the tubes in case the new 34's calf on me.. hopefully not... I have picked up some pre-bies but have yet to put them in as the original pre-bies still do the trick... we are opening for the Trews in 2 weeks I can't wait to push some air in the arena.. once again.. cheers.. u da man...


----------



## ddaxe

While I am definatley not a guru on the subject of tubes.. I'm (and I'm sure others) are very grateful to have many of you guys out there to help shed some light on the subject. but I do process the desire to attain a tone satisfaction that many of us seeks.. it's not the EVH tone, nor is it the Slash tone, it is, the one I hear in my head and I call it "MY" tone. When we cover material.. to me it is irrelevant to copy the original bands sound. I would rather chase my own sound instead of someone else's tone... besides..I'd have to emulate too many of them, and chasing "MY" tone is more pleasing to me... 
I recently changed my original 24 year old EL34's out of my 2555 Silver Jub..and to say the least I am impressed as to how much brighter and crispy the sound is. It still has alot of bottom to round it out... 
I was wondering.. would I notice much difference if I changed out the original pre amp tubes.. or should I just leave them as I like how the things have picked up since changing the EL 34's..??


----------



## MartyStrat54

avivoni said:


> hey marty and the guys...
> need your pro guidance and i hope i am in the right thread and not highjacking anyone's thread
> got a 2203 reissue that i need to open up (more beef). came stock with cp svetlana's (came stock from marshall).I changed the bias a little hotter (came from marshall biased very cold 29 ma) which helped a little and changed the preamp tubes which helped a lot (after experimenting a lot with different tubes and positions)- sylvania in v2 mullard in v1 (old production) and an old philips in v3.
> what i am looking at right now is an ok tone. i have a set of matched el 34 l jj's i want to put in.
> will that beef up my tone? should i be looking into different tubes? do power tubes make much of a tone difference?
> thanks a lot



I have said this numerous times. When dealing with a 2203, it is very important to have an ass kicking tube in V1. With the 2203, you only have two gain stages, a tone stack, cathode follower and phase inverter. I run a stout Philips made tube in V1 of my JMP 2203 and then a nice Raytheon Black Plate for the Tone Stack in V2. Then a lopsided, high gain Sylvania Gray Plate.

You have some nice tubes, but you probably don't know how strong they test. If the NOS Mullard is worn out, it won't do the trick in the 2203.

As far as power tubes go. The 2203 does rely on power tube overdrive "at higher volume levels," to get a distinctive sound. (Unlike a DSL/TSL which relies on the preamp tubes.) If you already have the JJ E34L's, I would put them in. Otherwise the GT EL34M is a good choice and so are the EH 6CA7's. I run those in my JMP and I have been real happy with them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ddaxe said:


> I was wondering...would I notice much difference if I changed out the original pre amp tubes, or should I just leave them as I like how the things have picked up since changing the EL 34's..??



That's totally up to you. Tubes are like shock absorbers on your car. You get used to how the car rides and you get used to how the amp sounds. You found out yourself what happens when you put in a new set of power tubes. I think if you went with some new preamp tubes you would be pleasantly surprised. Keep the old one's for back up/trouble shooting.


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't get hung up on brand names with the preamp tubes. The condition of the tube is what makes the difference. A Mullard that tests below specs can sound worse than a Sovtek 12AX7WGB, but a Mullard that tests NOS will bring your amp to life. Just using Mullard as an example, but it holds true with just about any of the old Philips brands. Even an old GE or Sylvania that tests new will blow the socks off of a CP tube.


----------



## plexilespaul

> If you already have the JJ E34L's, I would put them in. Otherwise the GT EL34M is a good choice and so are the EH 6CA7's. I run those in my JMP and I have been real happy with them


thanks marty solarburdsl50 and riverratt i will definately try the jj's since i have them laying around and report back


----------



## plexilespaul

by the way i have been offered the tung sol el-34. anybody have experience with these tubes?? for the jcm 2203?
i am editing my post cause i googled the tung sol and it seems most current production tubes are under the new sensor co.
probably this has been discussed before but is there really a difference between say a reissue mullard new sensor ,a tung-sol new sensor, electro harmoncs new sensor, svetlana sovtec and so on??? are these really different tubes or this is all marketing bullshit ...
what's a real good current production tube???


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it's around 99% marketing bullshit. If I had to pick a Russian tube, it'd probably be the Electro Harmonix just because it's generally the cheapest and it sounds OK. I bought a matched quad for a Laney AOR 100 watt that I used before I got my DSL. I put a matched quad of EH EL34's in it and within 2 weeks they were reading 8-9mV apart. I sent them back and got a quad of JJ E34L's that I used until I sold the amp.

I think the Chinese tubes are better constructed than the Russian ones. The EL34M is a great sounding tube and I know there are several guys on here who use them. It's made by Shugang as a Groove Tubes exclusive. I would rate JJ or Winged C's next. They seem to be a solid EL34 but they also are a little thin unless you really crank them.

That Northern Electric 12AX7 that we passed around really surprised me. It's a Chinese tube, too. It sounded closer to an old European Philips ECC83 than any other CP tube I've used. I won't be selling off any Telefunkens or Mullards to buy one, but if the price comes down to around $20, yeah I would use them.


----------



## ken361

how was the gold lions, bunk? on another note, power tubes rca or other old stock should be better then the 7189 or pretty close ?


----------



## plexilespaul

thanks ... well that's what i thought...alot of hype
anyway i am seriously going to give the gt el34m a chance and as for the jj's i am going to put them in this week
cheers


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> how was the gold lions, bunk? on another note, power tubes rca or other old stock should be better then the 7189 or pretty close ?



I was mainly talking about EL34's. I do have Gold Lion KT66 reissues in my Vintage Modern and it sounds killer, but I don't have anything to compare them to.

A 7189 is a direct sub for a 6BQ5 or EL84. I like Russian 6P14P's but the American tubes are good, too.


----------



## plexilespaul

what's the main differences you guys hear with different powertubes. how does a powertube qualify as good tube over another?
i think it's when you crank the amp is where you hear the difference...there is more thickness and depth and less thinness and choked tone. is that your experience guys?


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I do have Gold Lion KT66 reissues in my Vintage Modern and it sounds killer, but I don't have anything to compare them to...


My exact experience with the Ceriatone JTM45. Sounds excellent but I have no other KT66 to compare to.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a review of EL34/6CA7/KT77 type tubes.

EL34 Tube Type Review

Personally I don't believe every thing I read. Some of those tubes sound really bad, but the reviewer doesn't have anything bad to say about them. In this particular review, the Tung-Sol EL34B got all 5's. To me the 34B is an okay tube, but I like several others better.

The best way to tell power tubes is at a lower volume. How do they sound? Are they still articulate? Do they sound thin at low volume? Once you start turning them up, the sheer volume takes over and they can start sounding similar. Then it becomes more of the preamp tubes flavoring the power tubes.

Depending on the type of amp, the distortion may be coming from the preamp stage. Other amps do in fact get some of their "loud" sound from power tubes, but you really need to be cranking the amp.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> how was the gold lions, bunk? on another note, power tubes rca or other old stock should be better then the 7189 or pretty close ?



I've read a few reviews of the CP GL84's not lasting long at all. As far as the CP GL line of tubes the 84's were problematic in Cathode biased amps which is what I have. I did try a GL AX7 and it was noisy as hell.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gold Lions are way overpriced for what they are. It's all about playing the "trademark" game. NOS Gold Lions are highly desirable, but the CP version is just another Russian New Sensor tube.

It's sort of like what I've said before about 7025 tubes. When I think of 7025's, I think mainly of RCA's. There are several 7025's on the market. What's bad is when ordering them, there is an additional charge for "low noise." WTF is up with that?


----------



## BluesRocker

I never had a problem out of the GL KT66s I had in the Vintage Modern.. 

Marty, what are the best bang for the buck EL34s?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a loaded question, Cody. As far as I am concerned, finding a nice pair or quad of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's are usually priced at around $50 per tube. This is the tube that EVH used in the early albums. I love this tube.

The RFT is still my favorite NOS EL34 at about $230 for a NOS quad.

CP EL34's:

GT EL34M
JJ E34L
EH 6CA7

The Winged =C='s are okay, but not worth their rising price.


----------



## BluesRocker

I was looking for something in the future to throw in the 2204.. Maybe GTEL34M.. Are those the Mullard clones? Or relabels?

I got some EH6Ca7s for the SLP


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Groove Tube 34M's. These are clones of Mullards and in fact sound somewhat like the NOS Mullard. I tried some that Alan sent me and I liked them really well.


----------



## BluesRocker

I will have to check them out.. I know that they are a lot cheaper than the Winged Cs.. Damn those are getting expensive..


----------



## MartyStrat54

You should be getting something from Joey, right?


----------



## BluesRocker

Should be.. From what I understood in an email last week, it is done.. But he is going over it with a fine tooth comb to make sure everything is right.. Cause what he used for the power scaling can blow the amp up. So he wants to make sure.. I havent heard from him since that email though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess power scaling can be a good thing, but not if it is a danger to the amp. I've made it all these years without it, so I guess I don't need it. Even amps that I had that had the half power mode, I rarely used that. Running a pentode as a triode is thin sounding to me.


----------



## plexilespaul

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a review of EL34/6CA7/KT77 type tubes.
> 
> EL34 Tube Type Review
> 
> Personally I don't believe every thing I read. Some of those tubes sound really bad, but the reviewer doesn't have anything bad to say about them. In this particular review, the Tung-Sol EL34B got all 5's. To me the 34B is an okay tube, but I like several others better.
> 
> The best way to tell power tubes is at a lower volume. How do they sound? Are they still articulate? Do they sound thin at low volume? Once you start turning them up, the sheer volume takes over and they can start sounding similar. Then it becomes more of the preamp tubes flavoring the power tubes.
> 
> Depending on the type of amp, the distortion may be coming from the preamp stage. Other amps do in fact get some of their "loud" sound from power tubes, but you really need to be cranking the amp.


well thanks marty for that. i have a chance to buy the tungsol real cheap and the jj's apparantly broke down on me so i may bite the bullet on the tung sol


----------



## RiverRatt

Just a little info on my quad of Mullard Xf2 EL34's... they only went for $300 on eBay. I wish I'd sold them to someone here for that instead. This is definitely a buyer's market. I was hoping for at least $100 a tube, but it just ain't happening. I'm getting more watchers on the RCA 7591A's than I did on the Mullards. I was thinking about unloading a batch of preamp tubes, but now I think I'll hang on to them for awhile. It's unreal how soft the market has gotten in just the last year.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did someone find a warehouse full of Mullards?


----------



## dodgethis

Well, FML. Had some crackling and popping from my JVM410 over the past few weeks. 

Turns out it was one of my power tubes going bad. It was a surreal experience watching it redplate while the chassis was out of the head. A few arcs and the plates turned red in an instant. Time to get a new set and the JJ KT77s are at the top of my list  

Also, is it normal to find it hard to put my tubes back into the socket after removing them?


----------



## MM54

A tight fit is good, it'll ensure a strong connection.

Needless to say, don't play with the bad tubes in there  Make sure you bias the amp properly when installing the new power tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If all four of the power tube sockets are snug, this is okay. However, if one is tighter than the others, the socket could have gotten hot and slightly deformed. You might want to do a visual inspection while you have the chassis pulled.


----------



## dodgethis

Just to clarify that the tube was looking fine when I took the chassis out, though I still heard some crackling. It started redplating after about ten minutes. There was this loud thud everytime I took the amp off stand by. I guess it was wise decision to take the chassis out since the crackling could have come from anywhere, from the pre-amp section to the power section.

If I killed the amp just as the red plating occurred, the socket should not be that greatly affected, right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You should be okay. Those sockets are pretty tough. As long as there was no arcing or any area is melted. This would be easy to see.

That's the scary part of power tubes. When they go bad and the amp is on. Sometimes they can do some damage. That's why I like NOS power tubes, or the better quality CP brands. You get what you pay for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This thread got buried and a member was looking for it. B*U*M*P!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Certified DOUBLE BUMP!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Need an appraisal or info on tubes you have or wish to buy. Ask away. Marty


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Need an appraisal or info on tubes you have or wish to buy. Ask away. Marty


Always count on you Maestro.....lol
I scored these Teslovaks on Ebay today for $47....seller said they test out at 92% each....on a minimum of 70...should be compatable with my Teslas which have the same white script as these.....I've been running 3 Teslas with one Svetlana =C=, now I can run all 4 and have a spare.....can't wait....cuz even now they are awesome....Any thoughts advice or comments on Teslas anyone?....The Teslovaks are el34LS with the heat wings?and have 9825 on the other side....the Teslas I presume are el34m?and have B5 on the other side.and a 9 written or scratched on the plate.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, the Teslovaks are relabeled tubes from Penta Labs. The specs on these tubes are actually better than most NOS EL34's.

See Spec Sheet: http://www.pentalabs.com/pdfs/EL34S.pdf

Introducing three totally new vacuum tubes from Teslovak: the KT88S, the E34LS and the E83CCS. These new vacuum tube designs are the product of years of research, development, and hard work by our USA based engineering staff at Penta Labs in a joint venture with the staff of the newly reorganized tesla factory recently relocated in the heart of Europe; the Slovak Republic.

These tubes are being handmade in limited quantities exclusively for Penta Labs in the classic European tradition. This legendary tube factory has manufactured many OEM tubes under the brand names such as; Telefunken, Siemens, Amprex, Mullard, and Brimar, to name a few.

For $47 I think you did okay. Just make sure that the tubes are within the limit for biasing.


----------



## 61rocker

Wow, the seller claims these are vintage made in Chechoslovakia.....states vintage twice....hope I didn't get ripped...I bet I didn't spell that right....lol.....and I am going to have them biased in...."This auction is for a Pair of Vintage TESLA TESLOVAK EL34 6CA7 Power Tubes. They each have dark brown bases, gray plates, a top round strong dual stem getter and are in excellent clean like new condition with test results below. These are vintage MADE IN CZECHOSLAVAKIA tubes, each with the same code 9825. Tubes are checked for filament, shorts and emission value. Minimum emission is 70 and max is 130. These tubes passed all tests. I also let the tubes warm up for 5 minutes to get an accurate reading. I do combine on shipping, saving on ship charges, USA only. They tested matched for emissions as follows : 

*[SIZE=+2]
94 
94 "[/SIZE]*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Penta Laboratories: Product Details

Sorry, they are not "vintage." They supposedly are made in Slovakia, but they are not a TESLA vintage tube.


----------



## 61rocker

Here is a pic the seller posted.....all different print....


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I were you, I would contact the seller and tell him the item was misrepresented. Maybe you can get them for a different agreed price. For one, TESLA didn't make an E34LS. The worst that could happen is you do not want them. They look to be okay, but as I said, they are current production.


----------



## 61rocker

ouch....


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS TESLA Power Tubes have "37" for a factory code on the tube. They were made at the Zavod Trinec factory.


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah, my Teslas look exactly like those...boy these are getting pricey...there is another guy with some old GT he claims are vintage pre JJ Teslas with a BIN listing....doh.....I'm contacting the other seller tonite after works...Thx Big M...and for the invite....Peace...


----------



## Lowlife

Recently purchased these EL34 tubes
Tube-Town Online-Store - TT EL34 / 6CA7 / EL34B - TT XMatching ttel34

They where juuuust inside the bias range, which suprised me a bit, they sound pretty good on average and very good when kicked in the nuts...

Sometimes i wonder if i ever get rich enough to try NOS power tubes...and if it makes enough difference to be worthwhile


----------



## Over Drive

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's a loaded question, Cody. As far as I am concerned, finding a nice pair or quad of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's are usually priced at around $50 per tube. This is the tube that EVH used in the early albums. I love this tube.
> 
> The RFT is still my favorite NOS EL34 at about $230 for a NOS quad.
> 
> CP EL34's:
> 
> GT EL34M
> JJ E34L
> EH 6CA7
> 
> The Winged =C='s are okay, but not worth their rising price.


 
Marty, are these EL34s your top picks for CP tubes? I have done alot of reading and the Ruby, Tungsol and Shuguangs seem to get alot of love these days. Is there anything in particular you find that makes your list top the three I listed?

Are the EH 6CA7s you like the 'fat' bottles only or do you recomend the EL34s too?

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of folks like the EH EL34's. I have not used them, but I use the shit out of the 6CA7's. I like how they sound and I guess that's my personal preference. 

There is no difference between a RUBY and a Shuguang. Same tube, just relabeled. 

The Tung-Sol EL34B is a great sounding tube. It just isn't as popular as some of the others. 

My picks are those that I have had experience with and I also have received input from other users.


----------



## 61rocker

On impulse, I bought a pair of PM labeled EL34s at Sam Ash in N'ville a couple of weeks ago...(don't know why I only got two..) , I saw online that they are Chinese Shuguangs....I put them in with 2 Teslas...it kind of "Hardened" up the sound, if that makes sense, but sounded very strong....they test strong as well, stronger than a single RFT I have....at about 81%....I'm going to let my nephew try them in his Rivera, as it only has 2 EL34s....they have a fatter bottle than any other EL34s I have....I'll probably sell them off....but...I've heard worse....The other guitar player in my band (that got my JCM800 100watter combo) also got with it, a set of Mesa branded Svetlanas from '93. He's going to let me have them back, so I am excited about that...I know I can't "roll" power tubes like preamp tubes, but I think for recording purposes it will be cool to have a set of Teslas, Svets, and RFTs on hand....I presume I would have to bias in each set....and also don't plan on doing this very often...but the option is there.....could use a little insight on this plz.....


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> On impulse, I bought a pair of PM labeled EL34s at Sam Ash in N'ville a couple of weeks ago...(don't know why I only got two..) , I saw online that they are Chinese Shuguangs....I put them in with 2 Teslas...it kind of "Hardened" up the sound, if that makes sense, but sounded very strong....they test strong as well, stronger than a single RFT I have....at about 81%....I'm going to let my nephew try them in his Rivera, as it only has 2 EL34s....they have a fatter bottle than any other EL34s I have....I'll probably sell them off....but...I've heard worse....The other guitar player in my band (that got my JCM800 100watter combo) also got with it, a set of Mesa branded Svetlanas from '93. He's going to let me have them back, so I am excited about that...I know I can't "roll" power tubes like preamp tubes, but I think for recording purposes it will be cool to have a set of Teslas, Svets, and RFTs on hand....I presume I would have to bias in each set....and also don't plan on doing this very often...but the option is there.....could use a little insight on this plz.....



When I had my DSL up and running I rolled power tubes and I learned alot about certain EL34's. What I liked and what I didn't as well as how they sounded at volume. It makes a difference when you're really into the power section. Some were more open sounding or breathed more compared to others that were more compressed or constricted. I think the only pair I didn't try were the EH EL34's. Their 6CA7's kicked ass as Marty and I found out.

It was expensive but having a 50 watter and only 2 power tubes to buy at a time helped. I don't have one particular EL34 I have to have but about 3 different ones I would use. Any of them made the amp sound better to my ears.


----------



## sccloser

I have some GT E34L's (remarked JJ's) that sound good and they were matched within 2 mAs. I have some JJ's as well and they sound good. I have some early Svetlana =C= that sound really nice to me. I have some Tesla's that also sound very good. From what I remember they were really nice at gigs. Also have some RFT's and Shugs rebranded Peavey that I have yet to try. Tried to buy a pair of EH EL 34's today at a shop and they wanted $55 for the pair! Too much for me.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> I have some GT E34L's (remarked JJ's) that sound good and they were matched within 2 mAs. I have some JJ's as well and they sound good. I have some early Svetlana =C= that sound really nice to me. I have some Tesla's that also sound very good. From what I remember they were really nice at gigs. Also have some RFT's and Shugs rebranded Peavey that I have yet to try. Tried to buy a pair of EH EL 34's today at a shop and they wanted $55 for the pair! Too much for me.



Yeah I pretty much did them all and came to really like:

GT EL34M's/RFT EL34's
JJ 34L's
EH6CA7's

The Winged =C='s were decent. I didn't gush all over these like some other guys. Like I always say "To my ears" I like what I like.


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## MartyStrat54

Holy crap. They were out to gouge you. The EH EL34's are $27.95 online.


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## sccloser

I like the =C= tubes, but mine are older, from right around 2000. They sound a little better to me than the JJ's, but for what they cost now, I'd buy the JJ's or something else.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Holy crap. They were out to gouge you. The EH EL34's are $27.95 online.



That's what I told them...that they were about $28 online for a pair. They wanted $27 a piece!


----------



## sccloser

Besides, I'm saving up for Matsushitas....


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> I like the =C= tubes, but mine are older, from right around 2000. They sound a little better to me than the JJ's, but for what they cost now, I'd buy the JJ's or something else.



Yeah they've gone way up. Makes me glad I don't particularly like them hehe.


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## RiverRatt

I've got a pair of Winged C's that came out of my DSL50. They still have some life left in them if anyone's interested. I also have that pair of Tesla EL34M's that I picked up a few weeks ago. I've been thinking about eBaying them but as sure as I do I'll pick up an EL34 amp and wish I still had them. Did the "M" in EL34M stand for Marshall? I've always wondered if that's why they put the M in the name. With the Groove Tubes it clearly stands for Mullard. That should tell you how good they sound - they had the balls to attach Mullard to the name and actually try to live up to it, unlike the New Sensor Mullard EL34 which is Mullard in name only.

FWIW, I left the Groove Tubes EL34M's in the DSL when I sold it, and the guy who bought it loved the tone! I've been saying they are one of the best if not THE best EL34 out there now. Great lows, great mids, smooth highs. They sound more like old EL34's than any other tube I've tried.


----------



## 61rocker

I just found out the Siemans I won are waiting for me in Little Rock....along with 3 Sylvania 12ax7s....and I'll be picking up those '93 Svetlanas from my friend....


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## sccloser

If those are real Tesla's I'd certainly be interested!


----------



## dodgethis

Hey, Marty.

I'm thinking of getting either a quartet of 6CA7s or KT77s in my JVM410. Would there be any technical that I need to take note of if I were to put them into my amp, such heater current, bias range etc?

If I am looking for clean headroom and less compression, which tubes in the EL34 family would I be looking at, assuming I was looking at tubedepot's catalog.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a pair of Winged C's that came out of my DSL50. They still have some life left in them if anyone's interested. I also have that pair of Tesla EL34M's that I picked up a few weeks ago. I've been thinking about eBaying them but as sure as I do I'll pick up an EL34 amp and wish I still had them. Did the "M" in EL34M stand for Marshall? I've always wondered if that's why they put the M in the name. With the Groove Tubes it clearly stands for Mullard. That should tell you how good they sound - they had the balls to attach Mullard to the name and actually try to live up to it, unlike the New Sensor Mullard EL34 which is Mullard in name only.
> 
> FWIW, I left the Groove Tubes EL34M's in the DSL when I sold it, and the guy who bought it loved the tone! I've been saying they are one of the best if not THE best EL34 out there now. Great lows, great mids, smooth highs. They sound more like old EL34's than any other tube I've tried.



No argument here. I have read some comments of guys who have both the GT's and the real XF2 Mullards they are based on. Pretty damn close was the consensus. Me...I don't need that qualification. My ears told me they were the best mid rich 34 i had. The Marshall loved them. Great mix. I call them the ACDC EL34 cause they sounded so good play'n that territory.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think I ever posted a photo of the Teslas. Here they are. If anyone knows how to read the date codes, I would appreciate it. They came stock from a JCM900 according to the seller.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> No argument here. I have read some comments of guys who have both the GT's and the real XF2 Mullards they are based on. Pretty damn close was the consensus. Me...I don't need that qualification. My ears told me they were the best mid rich 34 i had. The Marshall loved them. Great mix. I call them the ACDC EL34 cause they sounded so good play'n that territory.



That's pretty much my thoughts about them as well. That's got me wanting to try some of the high-dollar Shugangs. I wish I could audition a pair of Shugang Treasures KT66's in my VM. Apparently Shugang can turn out some really nice tubes when they want to. Right now I'm running the Genalex RI's that Cody had in the Vintage Modern. They sound great, but I don't have anything to compare them to.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes Alan that's exactly right. Shuguang is pairing up with UK front money and they are turning out some really nice stuff, but it costs more. The Chinese work on price points. If you tell Shuguang you want 25,000 12AX7's for $4 each, they will make them. If you want 5,000 premium 12AX7's for $12 each, they will build those as well. They won't turn down a reasonable order for tubes. You get what you pay for. Penta Labs has some of the best "extra tested" Shuguangs for sale.


----------



## MartyStrat54

dodgethis said:


> Hey, Marty.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting either a quartet of 6CA7s or KT77s in my JVM410. Would there be any technical that I need to take note of if I were to put them into my amp, such heater current, bias range etc?
> 
> If I am looking for clean headroom and less compression, which tubes in the EL34 family would I be looking at, assuming I was looking at tubedepot's catalog.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



No. Either the 6CA7 or KT77 will work just fine. Personally, I like the EH 6CA7. I run those in two, 100 watt amps. Very close sounding to the Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's. Need any more info, just ask.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I pointed out, Psvane is made by a select lab at Shuguang and it is owned by a UK company.

The Shuguang Treasure series is high dollar stuff. They make a 6CA7-Z tube that is $280 for a quad. NOS Sylvania's are about $50 to $60 each.


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## RiverRatt

I found a duet of Shugang Treasures KT66's on eBay for $120. I have a little cash right now and I'm tempted...


----------



## thrawn86

Two more posts to 2k.......................

Mullards! I have nothing more to add, lads


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## MartyStrat54

Well I wouldn't be worried about reliability. They are very well made.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the bump, Admiral! Of course the only time I ever got my hands on a set of xf2 Mullards was when I didn't have an EL34 amp to test them in!!! Sometimes I feel like I've stumbled through life with that Murphy dude sitting on my shoulder.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tube Store is selling them for $220 a pair. $120 is a sweet price. They take up to 300 hours just to break in.


----------



## 61rocker

The RFT/Siemans are in my posession.....they test out well at 72,72,75,and 76....can't wait to plug em in...I feel that I got a great deal......the Svets test out at 70,71,72, there were only three, I forgot that one went bad, but the =C= that I am putting with them tests out at 72.....


----------



## 61rocker

Plugged in the Siemans tonite.....they are strong and full.....not quite as open and smooth as the Teslas, but rolling preamp tubes is helping a lot.....looking for that right combination...and it's getting better....I think it's a well spent $49 for the Siemans....most used sets I've seen on the bay are about $$99 to $129 average...NOS are up there...up to well over $200 on some....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah new RFT's run about $225 for a matched quartet. When available.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, you did good with the Siemens/RFT's. It's really a buyer's market right now and you can pick up deals that were unheard of just a year or two ago.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, you did good with the Siemens/RFT's. It's really a buyer's market right now and you can pick up deals that were unheard of just a year or two ago.


I really think this guy didn't know what he had....the Sylvanias was icing on the cake too....Strong....anyway he sent them all in JJ boxes...impling to me he replaced the kickazz Siemans with JJs....still amazed at the tubes I see left at my bud's shop back home...he has one RCA Fat Bottle EL34...first time I've seen one....I was wondering where the other one or three were....if it were only one, I bet it was bad....BTW, I'm really not dissing on the JJs, but playing thru them and vintage tubes are two different levels to me.....Vintage Rules....My Marshalls never sounded so good....Thx Guys....


----------



## sccloser

I picked up a matched pair of Siemens/RFT's branded Hot Rods, NOS, for $20 at the last guitar show. Have not tried them yet. Been rolling preamp tubes, but they tested great and I stashed them away.


----------



## eljeffebrown

So I've narrowed my search down to these two brands.

JJ 6CA7 and the Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH

JJ,

the new JJ 6CA7 power tubes! The mids and low end are fantastic. Quite similar to 6L6 tone but with a little more rolled off high end.

Prior to this tube being introduced the choice in a 6CA7 tube was NOS or the Electro Harmonics 6CA7EH. JJ has provided another choice and another price point. JJ tubes tend to be well made and this model fits well into the family. Nice construction, good glass, and the base and pins are well assembled. Although this is a replacement for the EL34 tube, the 6CA7 tube looks nothing like a pentode. In fact, an examination reveals what look like the beam forming plates you usually see on a 6L6 power tetrode. I’m not 100% sure of what’s going on in there. The JJ 6CA7 tube looks and sounds like a 6L6 but biases like an EL34. When installed in a 50W Hiwatt head these tubes just roar. It’s a classic sound for beefy rock anthems. The sound is firm and articulate. A number of customers have reported that this 6CA7 tube is darker sounding. Your mileage may vary but I found nothing dark about them at all. Smooth yes, dark, not so much in my testing.

Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH,

At last something to replace the hole left since the EI 6CA7 went out of stock. These tubes sound every bit as good as the old EI tubes and are probably my favorite tubes for Hiwatt guitar amplifiers. It’s like they were made for each other. These tubes are like EL34’s on steroids. They handle high voltage and current without problems. As mentioned, there is nothing like a Hiwatt head powered by 6CA7 tubes and driving a 4x12 cab loaded with Fane speakers. This is classic rock tone at its finest. It’s the sound of Pete Townsend and The Who. The 6CA7 has more headroom than an EL34 and by the time you get it really crunchy sounding your pants are flapping in the breeze. Just the right amount of compression for great thick rock tone. Biasing levels can be dialed in from warm to hot without causing significant tonal changes. The EH is well constructed and should not pose any noise problems. If using these tubes in more reasonable systems the EH 6CA7 is capable of some really nice clean tones thanks to that extra headroom. If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you. If you want something loud and proud, you want to put the EH 6CA7 in your amp.

I'm running a Raytheon Black plate V1, GE Gray V2, RCA Gray V3, in my JCM900DR 4500, just wondering what to buy.

P.S. I was also thinking about going a completely differant route with these....

Tung-Sol KT120

New Sensor now announces the Tung-Sol KT120, which has a plate dissipation of 60 watts, making it the most powerful tube in the 6550/KT88/KT90 family. A pair of these tubes in push-pull configuration can deliver power levels of 150 or more watts. When used at the parameters found in existing 6550/KT88/KT90 circuits, the Tung-Sol KT120 is impervious to overload, delivering peak power with extreme reliability and long tube life. However, taking advantage of the higher current handling capacity of these tubes, a very unique and super powerful and stable amp can be designed using the Tung-Sol KT-120.
As of November 2010, Audio Research Corp. is using the Tungsol KT120 tube exclusively in all new power amps.

Let me hear your feedback.


----------



## MM54

I've used the EH 6CA7's in my 4500 for a long time, they're great. Haven't tried the JJ's.


----------



## Over Drive

I found these USA 6BQ5s the other day in my parts drawer. I have no idea where they came from.


----------



## MM54

RCA methinks.


----------



## Over Drive

MM54 said:


> RCA methinks.


 
Works for me. Thanks.

Hopefully they sound great in my new Tweaker.


----------



## RiverRatt

You do know that you'll have to have adapters to run a 6BQ5/EL84 in the Tweaker, right? I'm not trying to be a smartass, I just don't want you to mess up your amp. If you already knew all this, then enjoy the tubes. They should sound great!


----------



## Over Drive

Yes - my VHT adapters should do the trick.


----------



## RiverRatt

Over Drive said:


> Yes - my VHT adapters should do the trick.



Cool. Be sure and post some clips. That's one of the few tubes I never tried in my Tweaker.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I picked up a matched pair of Siemens/RFT's branded Hot Rods, NOS, for $20 at the last guitar show. Have not tried them yet. Been rolling preamp tubes, but they tested great and I stashed them away.


 I'd give 'em a spin.....I remember back in the day when Hot Rods came out....there is a quad on SqueeBay listed for not too outragous...the more I played those Siemans last nite, the more they opened up...I posted my preamp combo on the Preamp Tube Thread....


----------



## RiverRatt

Serious question for a change. What would happen if you subbed an 8BQ5 in place of a 6BQ5? Aside from the heater voltage, they are identical. Would it be like running a 6BQ5 at lower voltage? Would it result in a cool "brown" sound with less headroom or would it just sound like crap becaue the cathode isn't getting hot enough? I wish I had a little EL84 amp to mess with.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Serious question for a change. What would happen if you subbed an 8BQ5 in place of a 6BQ5? Aside from the heater voltage, they are identical. Would it be like running a 6BQ5 at lower voltage? Would it result in a cool "brown" sound with less headroom or would it just sound like crap becaue the cathode isn't getting hot enough? I wish I had a little EL84 amp to mess with.



Great idea Alan. 

I thought the brown sound came from running the voltage up instead of down though???


----------



## MartyStrat54

Down 2 volts on the heater would be bad. Way out of specs. It would harm the tube. I accidentally put an 8BQ5 in an EL84 HiFi amp. (Some EBAY seller sent it thinking it was a 6BQ5 and it was in a Sylvania 6BQ5 box.) This was a stereo amp and the side with the 8BQ5 sounded like ass. The tube quit working by the time I found out it was the wrong tube.

So no, it doesn't create any brown sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

Crap. I was hoping there would be some use for them. I've run across several.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Great idea Alan.
> 
> I thought the brown sound came from running the voltage up instead of down though???



I always heard that it was "brown" as in an electrical brown-out when the voltage drops.

I've seen pics of Eddie's rig with a Variac on the amp. Whether he actually used it or it was just another one of his famous misdirections I have no idea.


----------



## eljeffebrown

Anyone have any input on my post a few back? I'm trying to make a decision here!  

Also thinking about KT88's, Marty help me out!


----------



## sccloser

You will probably have to make a mod to your amp to be able to bias the KT120's if they are similar to 6550's. You could probably run them as is, but you will probably not be able to bias them warm enough without a few component changes in the bias circuit...WE NEED A TECH PLEASE! 
I have no experience with JJ or EH 6CA7's but from what I hear others say, I would probably try the EH's.


----------



## MM54

I vote for the EH 6CA7's Jeffe. I ran them in my 4500 for a long time (before I picked up a pair of NOS EL34's) and really, really, REALLY like what they did for the tone. They're pretty affordable, too.


----------



## eljeffebrown

What I'm trying to do is bump up the output. the 120's may be a little too much but I don't think KT88's are out of the question.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MM54 said:


> I vote for the EH 6CA7's Jeffe. I ran them in my 4500 for a long time (before I picked up a pair of NOS EL34's) and really, really, REALLY like what they did for the tone. They're pretty affordable, too.



those EH's are very intriguing but I'm so used to JJ's. do you think the JJ's would be more aggressive sounding than the EH's or Visa Versa?


----------



## RiverRatt

eljeffebrown said:


> What I'm trying to do is bump up the output. the 120's may be a little too much but I don't think KT88's are out of the question.



If you're wanting more output then yeah, the KT88/6550's would probably be the way to go.


----------



## MM54

I have no idea, I've never used the JJ's. 

Increasing the power capability of your tubes however will NOT result in any more output, just likely more headroom.


----------



## 61rocker

OK....who knows about 6550s....I think I want to get a set of CP 6550s....I have read some good comments here on, of all brands....EH6550s....my friend retubed his '78 JMP 2203 with EHs and is getting more of a crunch...even tho his GEs test well....anyway, any comments, opinions, or such on some 6550s without getting too exspensive...I know the =C= are well regarded, but they are pricey....do some 6550s breakup better than say my GE 6550As?....I know that I have found more crunch with rolling 12ax7s....but have read the 6550Cs breakup sooner than the As do....Thx Rawkers....This would be for a '71 1959 Super Lead 100W....


----------



## sccloser

I believe that the chinese tubes will probably have less headroom than the US GE's. From what I understand when only US Companies were making 6550's these tubes had strong vacuums and were extremely well made, had great reliability and longevity and lots of headroom. The chinese versions are of a bit less quality (like most all cp tubes), but have a softer sound and less headroom, which musically can be a good thing. That's about all I know, or at least all I THINK I know.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I believe that the chinese tubes will probably have less headroom than the US GE's. From what I understand when only US Companies were making 6550's these tubes had strong vacuums and were extremely well made, had great reliability and longevity and lots of headroom. The chinese versions are of a bit less quality (like most all cp tubes), but have a softer sound and less headroom, which musically can be a good thing. That's about all I know, or at least all I THINK I know.


My GEs work fine, but I think I want to put them back....they are very clean and don't break up well unless I roll the right preamp tubes....but they test as strong or stronger than what I see on ebay...amazing that they are probably 40-45 yrs old...I don't know how to date GEs....


----------



## RiverRatt

Most GE tubes are easy to date. There will be two sets of numbers. There will always be 188 - X, with 188 being the EIA code for GE and X being a number that corresponds to the factory (i.e. "5" is the Owensboro, KY factory). The other set of numbers is in a YY-MM format.






It's a little hard to see but this is the best pic I could find. This tube would have been made in the Owensboro factory in the 30th week of 1968 (unless that first number is a 63... it's hard to tell).


----------



## 61rocker

Thx Alan...I only have two of those 6550s with enuff print on it...hope I can....mine appear to be 188-5 and 85-43 so they match up....these are 2 relabled Peaveys, but you can see the GE markings...weren't they owned by Phillips by then?...and the other 3 are original GE, but there's no code print left...one was in my super lead and two are on loan and came out of a '78 2203 which had original GE 12AX7s with all the print...I could look at them when I go home this weekend, chances are they match up....


----------



## big dooley

eljeffebrown said:


> What I'm trying to do is bump up the output. the 120's may be a little too much but I don't think KT88's are out of the question.



you won't make anymore power then with the stock tubes... the power comes from the wall socket and the PT forms it into something the tubes can digest... EL34 style circuits cannot provide the right juice needed for KT88's, KT90's KT120's or 6550's to be able to run them at their max plate dissipation

as JJ's vs EH 6CA7's... be aware that the JJ's max screen dissipation rating is higher then the EH's and on par with the winged C EL34's... something which can't be overlooked with a marshall style circuit, which run these suckers at or beyond that limit... especially if you like to crank these puppy's


----------



## rockinr0ll

How are the GT-6L6GE?


----------



## sccloser

I have heard they are pretty good. I do not use 6l6 tubes so I have no first hand knowledge. Here is a link to where a guy did a comparison. I do not know how reputable he may or may not be. 

A Look at the Groove Tubes U.S. Made 6L6GE

I am surprised to hear that ANY tubes are being made in the US anymore with the way the EPA is and all.

See If Martystrat or Riveratt have some NOS GE's for sale. They may not be much more in price but they may be much better in tone and longevity.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Thx Alan...I only have two of those 6550s with enuff print on it...hope I can....mine appear to be 188-5 and 85-43 so they match up....these are 2 relabled Peaveys, but you can see the GE markings...weren't they owned by Phillips by then?...and the other 3 are original GE, but there's no code print left...one was in my super lead and two are on loan and came out of a '78 2203 which had original GE 12AX7s with all the print...I could look at them when I go home this weekend, chances are they match up....



IIRC the Owensboro factory was the last to be closed. I don't think any GE tubes were produced under the Philips name but I could be wrong. I think that was Sylvania. I can remember being at a seminar at St. Louis Music back in the early 90's when Lee Jackson was designing the VL series for Ampeg. We met him walking through the office carrying a quad of GE 6550's. I don't know when production stopped, but they were still fairly plentiful then. 

I wish I'd never sold my VL502 head - they were badass amps. The mid shift feature would take you from Marshall crunch to scooped metal. It was the perfect amp for me at the time but then I felt like I outgrew the hair metal thing and got rid of it and traded my Charvel for a Les Paul.


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah, I think Sylvania is right.....I've taken an interest in Ampeg tube amps....I like that combo that everyone was talking about on that Aerosmith post...was that you?.....They are still affordable....but have you seen or played thru those newer reissues?....wonder if they have that same ambiance.....


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Yeah, I think Sylvania is right.....I've taken an interest in Ampeg tube amps....I like that combo that everyone was talking about on that Aerosmith post...was that you?.....They are still affordable....but have you seen or played thru those newer reissues?....wonder if they have that same ambiance.....



Yeah, that was me. Some guys I know have just opened a new store in Jackson, TN and are going to carry the new Ampegs. I'm definitely going to try them out and I'll give a report on them. My GV-22 is a wicked-good sounding amp, but if the effects board goes out I don't think they are repairable. They use a lot of those weird modules that are full of caps and resistors. The main circuit board is pretty straight-forward though. I just did a cap job on it a few months back and it is really sounding sweet.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I have heard they are pretty good. I do not use 6l6 tubes so I have no first hand knowledge. Here is a link to where a guy did a comparison. I do not know how reputable he may or may not be.
> 
> A Look at the Groove Tubes U.S. Made 6L6GE
> 
> I am surprised to hear that ANY tubes are being made in the US anymore with the way the EPA is and all.
> 
> See If Martystrat or Riveratt have some NOS GE's for sale. They may not be much more in price but they may be much better in tone and longevity.



I've got a few pairs of 6L6GC's on hand. I haven't really thought about selling any of them, but I have enough that I could part with a pair if somebody needs them.


----------



## eljeffebrown

big dooley said:


> you won't make anymore power then with the stock tubes... the power comes from the wall socket and the PT forms it into something the tubes can digest... EL34 style circuits cannot provide the right juice needed for KT88's, KT90's KT120's or 6550's to be able to run them at their max plate dissipation
> 
> as JJ's vs EH 6CA7's... be aware that the JJ's max screen dissipation rating is higher then the EH's and on par with the winged C EL34's... something which can't be overlooked with a marshall style circuit, which run these suckers at or beyond that limit... especially if you like to crank these puppy's



This confuses me for some reason.


----------



## big dooley

eljeffebrown said:


> This confuses me for some reason.



i understand... well lets say your plate voltage is 480Vdc... screen voltage is not far away from that number... maybe 460Vdc or even higher.... if i remember correctly, max screen voltage for EH 6CA7's is 425 or 450Vdc... that's one of the reasons why marshall uses winged C and shuguang EL34's, as they have their screen voltage limit at 500Vdc... the JJ 6CA7's also have their limit at 500Vdc, so they should be sturdy enough to live confidently in a marshall that is cranked a lot
screen voltage is measured at pin 4 btw...


----------



## eljeffebrown

big dooley said:


> i understand... well lets say your plate voltage is 480Vdc... screen voltage is not far away from that number... maybe 460Vdc or even higher.... if i remember correctly, max screen voltage for EH 6CA7's is 425 or 450Vdc... that's one of the reasons why marshall uses winged C and shuguang EL34's, as they have their screen voltage limit at 500Vdc... the JJ 6CA7's also have their limit at 500Vdc, so they should be sturdy enough to live confidently in a marshall that is cranked a lot
> screen voltage is measured at pin 4 btw...



Ah simple, so I would be smarter to go with the JJ's than the EH's just because they are a better match to what my amp is comfortable with already (at vol) and more tolerant of "Marshalls".

You know I was leaning toward the JJ's anyway for some reason and I don't know why, I think it's because it's what I've always used. I know they are very durable and a no nonsense tube, you can trust 'em.


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> Ah simple, so I would be smarter to go with the JJ's than the EH's just because they are a better match to what my amp is comfortable with already (at vol) and more tolerant of "Marshalls".
> 
> You know I was leaning toward the JJ's anyway for some reason and I don't know why, I think it's because it's what I've always used. I know they are very durable and a no nonsense tube, you can trust 'em.



I've used the EH 6CA7's in my DSL 50 and they sounded real good. Raw comes to mind like an uncontrollable beast. That being said I did have a problem with one of them drifting not too long after buying/using them. The Tubes store replaced it and I was good to go after that.

I have seen only a few posts on the JJ 6CA7's as they are so new. The couple guys that ere using them said they sounded really good. Now this is only anecdotal info but at least it looks hopeful. I think more and more guys are going to be trying these out so we will get a better idea. If my DSL was in working order I would have tried them already cause I liked the EH6CA7's.


----------



## MM54

big dooley said:


> i understand... well lets say your plate voltage is 480Vdc... screen voltage is not far away from that number... maybe 460Vdc or even higher.... if i remember correctly, max screen voltage for EH 6CA7's is 425 or 450Vdc... that's one of the reasons why marshall uses winged C and shuguang EL34's, as they have their screen voltage limit at 500Vdc... the JJ 6CA7's also have their limit at 500Vdc, so they should be sturdy enough to live confidently in a marshall that is cranked a lot
> screen voltage is measured at pin 4 btw...



My 100W head put about 495 on the plates and a touch less than that on the screens, I've run the EH6CA7's in it for quite a while with no issues, so either I got a fluke of a really good quad or their ratings are a bit conservative for that. I'm not saying it isn't shortening their lifespans (and I may try the JJ6CA7's when it comes time just to see how they taste) but it's not an instant bang-pop-dead if you're over the screen rating like some people would think.


----------



## eljeffebrown

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've used the EH 6CA7's in my DSL 50 and they sounded real good. Raw comes to mind like an uncontrollable beast. That being said I did have a problem with one of them drifting not too long after buying/using them. The Tubes store replaced it and I was good to go after that.
> 
> I have seen only a few posts on the JJ 6CA7's as they are so new. The couple guys that ere using them said they sounded really good. Now this is only anecdotal info but at least it looks hopeful. I think more and more guys are going to be trying these out so we will get a better idea. If my DSL was in working order I would have tried them already cause I liked the EH6CA7's.



Yea and they look SO beefy! for the price ($30/$35 matched pair) you can't beat 'em. I'd love to see em in blue glass!


----------



## big dooley

MM54 said:


> My 100W head put about 495 on the plates and a touch less than that on the screens, I've run the EH6CA7's in it for quite a while with no issues, so either I got a fluke of a really good quad or their ratings are a bit conservative for that. I'm not saying it isn't shortening their lifespans (and I may try the JJ6CA7's when it comes time just to see how they taste) but it's not an instant bang-pop-dead if you're over the screen rating like some people would think.



i know... wilder has been using E34L's in a NMV amp cranked to hell with an attenuator for 3 years or so and they didn't give a sweat.. they're rated at 450Vdc as well


----------



## sccloser

I saw some NOS 6L6GB tubes today. I think they were RCA. I think most 6L6 tubes today are 6L6GC ...what is the difference?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I saw some NOS 6L6GB tubes today. I think they were RCA. I think most 6L6 tubes today are 6L6GC ...what is the difference?



Lower everything. You could fry one of those in a 6L6GC circuit. GC's are rated for like 500v on the plates at 30 watt dissipation. The GB is more like 360v/19w. If it's an older, lower powered amp, you might could get away with using them if you have enough bias range.


----------



## sccloser

OK. glad I didn't bite on those then. 6l6GC is the way to go I suppose, if you have to go 6l6. I'm still an el34 guy...


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Lower everything. You could fry one of those in a 6L6GC circuit. GC's are rated for like 500v on the plates at 30 watt dissipation. The GB is more like 360v/19w. If it's an older, lower powered amp, you might could get away with using them if you have enough bias range.



Or if it's just a low-powered amp, you can run them right at their limits and get some awesome tone (*cough*CA10*cough*)


----------



## MartyStrat54

And then there is the 35 watt super "6L6." 

No...it isn't a 6550.


----------



## sccloser

What are 6AQ5A tubes good for?


----------



## fenderbender420

hey guys sorry if im hijackin, um how do you test powertubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> What are 6AQ5A tubes good for?



Class A/AB beam power pentode, 7-pin base, used in radios, TV amplifier circuits, etc. Good for about 2 watts output in a class A circuit.


----------



## RiverRatt

fenderbender420 said:


> hey guys sorry if im hijackin, um how do you test powertubes?



Make friends with someone with a good mutual conductance tube tester 

Seriously, a mutual conductance tester is the only real way if you want to match them and know how strong they are, remaining tube life, etc. There are a few people on the forum who will test tubes for you as well. 

You can pick up a cheap emissions tube tester for not a lot of money and they will test for shorts, grid leakage, etc. and at least give you a good idea as to whether or not a tube is safe to try in your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> What are 6AQ5A tubes good for?



These were really popular in the earlier days of tube usage. They were the power tubes used in the old Victrola phonographs. Also a lot of car radios. I think ALAN looked at the wrong line as these will dissipate 12 watts and my 1959 RCA Tube Manual compares their power to the larger 6V6. The grid will dissipate 2 watts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

fenderbender420 said:


> hey guys sorry if im hijackin, um how do you test powertubes?



You need to find someone with a good transconductance tester. Most TV shops still have a tube tester laying around. 

What do you need to test?


----------



## RiverRatt

I was talking about output power, not dissipation. Check the sheet - 2 watts Class A, 10 watts Class AB. Not a very high-powered power pentode, but perfect for a low watt amp like a portable phonograph or one of those old bakelite tube radios. I actually made a guitar amp out of an amplified GE extension cabinet with a small Class A 6AQ5 amp built into it. You can crank it and it sounds pretty good but it doesn't really get above conversation levels.


----------



## sccloser

Cool, I have a couple NOS lying around and was just wondering what I could do with them.


----------



## fenderbender420

MartyStrat54 said:


> You need to find someone with a good transconductance tester. Most TV shops still have a tube tester laying around.
> 
> What do you need to test?



i have a quartet of 6l6gc i think, anyways the bonehead tech who fixed my jcm 900 4100 a while ago put those in it instead of the 5881s that its supposed to get and after a while i had fireworks in one of the bottles. stupidly i never thought at the time to mark the said tube and now they are mixed up!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sovtek 5881WXT's are pretty much the same as Sovtek 6L6GC's. I've seen them labeled as either in amps that call for a 6L6 and they seem to work fine.

One thing you can do is check the filament for continuity if you have a DMM. It might identify a problem tube. Use your meter to see if you get continuity between pins 2 and 7.


----------



## fenderbender420

sorry i got it wrong the tubes that came in it were 5881 6l6wgc the others are somthin else but i dont have them right now


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, the Sovtek versions of the 5881/6L6 tube are pretty much identical. 

If you don't have access to a tube tester, your only other option is to put them back in your amp and wait for the fireworks. As using this method will likely fry your amp, I'd suggest either taking it to another tech or buying a new set of output tubes and learning how to bias the amp yourelf.

I also think the bonehead tech you mentioned should at least be liable for the cost of either his tubes that went bad or the new tubes you have to replace them with.


----------



## sccloser

Calling all tube tester knowledgeable types...

Checking tubes on the Eico 667. Went through a bunch of 12ax7 tubes. (note : I tested a couple of Sovteks and they were the strongest 135/135, CP tung Sol 116/114, the NOS tubes I had ranged for 90 to about 105 in comparison).
ANYWAY...
I checked my Tesla EL 34's and they only checked 10 and 12 %! BAD! But I checked them on my Accurate 157 (which usually checks on the low side) and they read 60% each. They sounded fine when I took them out. 

Any ideas why the discrepancy?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a big discrepancy. It's hard to say. Could be a difference in the current that is going through the tube. Both of these are emissions testers, correct? I don't remember the 157 being a transconductance tester. I'd love to see how they would read on my 707.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, they are both emissions testers. The 157 is very simple, but does about everything the Eico does except when you test for shorts, the Eico actually gives you a reading whereas the the 157 just tells you go or no go.

I've been reading on the net that the Eico's are notorious for readingl low on power tubes, and that power tube emissions readings are not a good indication of the condition of a power tube. I know the tubes are good. They were working great in the amp and sounded fantastic at the last gig I used them. 

I guess I need a tube analyzer...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buy yourself an Amplitrex AT1000 or a Maxi-Matcher.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Need an appraisal or info on tubes you have or wish to buy. Ask away. Marty



Any thoughts on the below choices?




Gtarzan81 said:


> These are like 160:
> Genalex - Gold Lion KT66
> 
> These would be about $110:
> TAD 6L6GC-STR


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Gold Lion KT66's are priced high for what they are. Just because you pay a lot for them doesn't mean they are the best. It depends on your playing style. The Gold Lion's are very nice tubes, don't get me wrong. However, at moderate volume, they sound very close to the Shuguang's. At high volume levels, the Gold Lion's get compressed on the top end and the Shuguang's get compressed more in the mid band. This leaves the top end sounding a little raw. However, this can be a good thing as I said. Depending on what your style is, a raw top end is a good thing. 

The TAD 6L6GC-STR's are my favorite 6L6 tube. They took the best features of the USA NOS tubes to create this tube. Not only does it sound good, it lasts a long time. I know several guys who have run a set for over two years.

You don't say what amp you have. If it is a 6L6 based amp, you will need to ensure that the power tranny can meet the additional heater current draw of the KT66's. The exception to this is the Tung-Sol KT66. It has the same heater current draw as a 6L6GC. This tube sounds more like a 6550.

Hope this helps.


----------



## johnfv

The Genelex KT66 sounds killer in the Ceriatone JTM45 clone:
http://www.marshallforum.com/other-amps/26662-ceriatone-jtm45.html#post355967


----------



## RiverRatt

I have the Genalex Gold Lion KT66 reissues in my Vintage Modern. I don't have anything to compare them to, but they sound great!


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> You don't say what amp you have. If it is a 6L6 based amp, you will need to ensure that the power tranny can meet the additional heater current draw of the KT66's. The exception to this is the Tung-Sol KT66. It has the same heater current draw as a 6L6GC. This tube sounds more like a 6550.
> 
> Hope this helps.



It's a 6100LM, and I've been told it can handle the current and the Genelex fit..barely. 

Not sure of the Shunguangs will physically fit. 

Lane also said the GC-STR's are pretty awesome.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, if I had a 6L6GC amp, I would either be running the TAD's or RCA Black Plates.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got two 6L6GC amps right now and a lot of really nice pairs of tubes. That's the main reason I like 50-watt amps. It's a helluva lot easier to find matched pairs than matched quads. So far, my favorite in the Hot Rod Deville is the short bottle Sylvania. The pair I've got in it now biases so cold you'd think they were worthless, but they sound killer. It's a toss-up to me between the Sylvania long bottles and the RCA black plates. The Fender just seems to take Sylvania tubes better.

In my Ampeg GV-22, I'm running a set of Made in Japan 6L6GC's with black plates. They look similar to the RCA black plates, but they usually only have one getter on top instead of the two on the sides like RCA. Still the tone is similar so I'm going to save my RCA's and run the MIJ's in the Ampeg as long as they'll last.






Left to right: Sylvania big bottle, RCA black plate, Sylvania short gray plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I brought this up to Jon Wilder a year ago. Do you know anyone that has ever converted their Marshall amp over to 7027A power tubes?

Nobody answered my question on the previous page.



> And then there is the 35 watt super "6L6."
> 
> No...it isn't a 6550.



I was referring to the 7027A. It is a 35 watt super 6L6GC. Very similar in specs to a 6550. NOS are still pretty easy to find. I have around a dozen or so of them as I was into RCA 7027A amplifiers several years back.

I wonder how they would sound (tone) in a Marshall amp?


----------



## MM54

Makes me want to build a dual-rail design and make a 70W amp with just a pair of them


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 7027A's were the tubes used in a lot of Ampeg amps. They were good sounding amps.


----------



## GIBSON67

I had a Ampeg V4B before my Marshall and it had 7027's. Damn that amp was loud! No breakup at all so it was very clean. But at the time I didn't have a bass, now I have a bass and no Ampeg...I just can't get it right.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that tells me that they would sound real good in a DSL/TSL, because you want the power tubes to remain clean. All of the distortion comes from the preamp stages. It would also probably be kick ass with a clean channel hooked up to a multi-effects unit such as an RP-1000.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think a lot of that tone is more from the Ampeg circuit than the actual power tubes used. I've heard Ampegs with 7027A's and 7591A's and owned one or two, and my Gemini II GV-22 (or GV-15, same thing) still has that same tone that the other Gemini with the esoteric tubes have and it does it with 6L6GC's. 

All the Ampegs show a characteristic late breakup, are usually dark, and have reverb and effects that put EVERYBODY to shame back then. Plus they sound so thick even when clean you can't help but plug in a Tele or a Les Paul and play some Gimme Shelter or Exile-era Stones. Ampegs are an absolute steal right now as far as vintage amps go, and you can still run across good supplies of 7027 or 7591 tubes at reasonable prices for them.

I don't think anything speaks for the Ampeg sound any better than this tune.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxTHIgHucpg]Rolling Stones Midnight Rambler "Live" 69 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## eljeffebrown

MM54 said:


> Makes me want to build a dual-rail design and make a 70W amp with just a pair of them



Hey Matt you still haven't given us a listen to that little 18 watter you built, what up with that?


----------



## MM54

eljeffebrown said:


> Hey Matt you still haven't given us a listen to that little 18 watter you built, what up with that?



 What 18 watter? Am I building amps in my sleep again?


----------



## ics1974

quick question

I have a DSL 50 and about to retube the power tubes with a matched pair of EH EL34's. The match numbers on the tubes are 33 but I am not sure what this number means or should I even care? Do I still bias between 40-45mV with my multimeter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ics-The "33" is their matching info. It refers to their testing equipment. Install them and bias at 40-45mV as usual.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Notice of contest. Submit entry over on the Preamp Tube thread.

Hello. I have a cool contest here for all who wish to enter. I'm trying to get the forum back on the right tracks. Ya know...amps, guitars, speakers, pickups and TUBES. Yeah, I love tubes and you guys know that.

To enter, you must:

Copy the following image and text.





"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Just use the "Quote" button and copy the image and the text.

Then go to this thread:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html

Paste image and text in the Preamp Tube thread.

Then in your own words tell me why you would want to be a tube roller. Try to keep it under 300 words or less. No penalty for going over. 

GRAND PRIZE is TEN rolling tubes. Six NOS and four CP. I even pay for postage (USA only). If you live overseas (including Canada and Mexico), you can enter, but you will be responsible for postage and handling.

NOS tubes will be RCA, GE, Sylvania, Raytheon, Military 5751 and mystery 12AX7.
CP tubes will be Preferred Series 7025, Mullard RI, JJ 83S Gold Pin and EH.

(All the above tubes are 12AX7/12AX7A types.)

This is at least $240 in tubes. WOW! Who else would do something like this?
Main judge-Me. Supporting judges, Alan (River Ratt) and Joe (SolarBurn).



> Just left the Preamp Tube thread and read where Joe and Alan are wanting to fatten the pot with a couple of extra tubes. Looks like the GRAND PRIZE will be a total of 10 tubes.
> 
> 5751 from Alan
> Mystery 12AX7 from Joe



ATTENTION: POST YOUR CONTEST QUESTIONS HERE, BUT DO NOT POST YOUR ENTRY HERE. IF YOU DO, IT WILL BE INVALID. I WANT ALL ENTRIES OVER ON THE PREAMP TUBE THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME WITH QUESTIONS. POST YOUR QUESTIONS/COMMENTS HERE.

One grand prize only. Entry must be submitted by midnight, October 31, 2011.
Winner's name to be announced here and on the Preamp Tube thread.
I reserve the right to make tube substitutions.


----------



## ics1974

MartyStrat54 said:


> ics-The "33" is their matching info. It refers to their testing equipment. Install them and bias at 40-45mV as usual.


 
Hi Marty,

I changed my tubes and my bias is currently set to 39mV on my DSL 50. Is this too low or should I set it a bit higher? What would you recommend?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you know what the plate voltage is? This is found on Pin 3. It should be like 470VDC or around there.

EL34's are 25 watts max and you want to set the bias to be between 60% and 70% maximum dissipation watts. (60% = 15 watts; 70% = 17.5 watts) Divide your desired wattage by your plate voltage. (example: 15/450 = .033 or 33mV) This is your desired bias voltage (probably between 30 and 45 mV).

I think running around 65 percent is a good number. I used to run the tubes right at 45mV on my TSL's and I think this is not necessary. Your tubes will last longer the lower the bias.


----------



## ics1974

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you know what the plate voltage is? This is found on Pin 3. It should be like 470VDC or around there.
> 
> EL34's are 25 watts max and you want to set the bias to be between 60% and 70% maximum dissipation watts. (60% = 15 watts; 70% = 17.5 watts) Divide your desired wattage by your plate voltage. (example: 15/450 = .033 or 33mV) This is your desired bias voltage (probably between 30 and 45 mV).
> 
> I think running around 65 percent is a good number. I used to run the tubes right at 45mV on my TSL's and I think this is not necessary. Your tubes will last longer the lower the bias.


 
I have no idea what my plate voltage is and it sounds dangerous to test. As long as I am not causing any damage at 39mV I am ok with that. The stock tubes I just replaced was around 39mV as well.
Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that should be plenty safe unless your plate voltage is WAAYYY off. Any time I put in a new set of power tubes, I check them regularly for a few days and make sure they aren't drifting higher or lower. I've had so-called matched tubes that were over 8mV apart after running them a week. I may be paranoid, but I do a visual check for red-plating until I'm sure they are settled in and running right no matter what they are biased at. I've got a great looking old Tung-Sol 6V6GT that red-plates in every amp I've tried it in. If I hadn't checked it the first time I used it, I would have probably fried a brand-new head. The tube tests fine, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The problem with the E-Z bias on the DSL/TSL is that not all of the amps put out the same plate voltage. Of course, if it is off by 20VDC, it really won't make that big of a difference on your bias. I guess that's why a lot of guys just take their digital multimeters and set the bias at 45mV. At the very worst, you might be running 73 percent dissipation.

If you happen to take it to a tech for service, have him write done the plate voltage (loaded) on the top of the chassis.


----------



## MM54

I plan on building a really nice meter/probe thing sometime that'll display plate voltage and cathode current (or maybe even actual plate current, that's just harder and more dangerous, I'll have to decide) for up to 4 tubes at a time. It'll make biasing old amps a lot easier 

Then again I may be able to buy one for the price of parts, so I'll consider that too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, I saw a piece of equipment and thought you'd like it. It's a capacitor/resistor simulator box. It was in that old TV shop and I don't know if it was working or not. I should have asked about it - she would have probably given it to me.


----------



## sccloser

The retired ET I met had some of those as well.


----------



## ics1974

I have some more questions about biasing.

1. How close do you need to get both sides in Mv.
I can get 39.1mv on one side and 39.6 on the other side or sometimes
39.7mv on one side and 40.5mv on the other side. Is this close enough or does both sides need to be exactly equil?

2. how long should your amp be on standby before biasing? I was waiting about 10 minutes. Would it be better to play the guitar and really get it warmed up first and then unhook the guitar cable and set master volume to 0 before biasing?

3. Is it just the master volume you set to 0 or the gain as well?

Thanks


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, I saw a piece of equipment and thought you'd like it. It's a capacitor/resistor simulator box. It was in that old TV shop and I don't know if it was working or not. I should have asked about it - she would have probably given it to me.



That sounds really neat, those resistor/capacitor sub boxes are really neat for trying out different values in a circuit. (I assume that's what it was.) They're amongst the things on my list of "stuff it'd be nice to have, but isn't really all that necessary" along with a nice VTVM and some nice regulated tube power supplies.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Anyone know the outside dimensions on the Genelex kt66, and the Shunguag kt66?
Shuguang KT66

The chicom ones are cheaper, and sound very similar. The genelex ones are known to fit in a 6100. Please advise....


----------



## MartyStrat54

2.047 inch or 52mm at the widest point. However, it is glass and there will be variations.


----------



## sccloser

What would be a good el84 to use in a Class 5 combo?


----------



## thrawn86

NOS Mullard, baby!


----------



## solarburn

An RFT EL84 as well. Warm and smokey...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've never tried the RFT's out personally. I've sold some, but the only amp I have that uses EL84's is my 401 and it is a pain to replace tubes. It has that stupid top brace with the foam that stinks when the tubes get hot. I always wondered who's great idea that was?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow. A matched pair of Sylvania Black Plate 6BQ5's went for $91 on EBAY.

WTF???


----------



## sccloser

Been just missing some vintage and NOS el 84's. Going for European ones. Thought I'd share that and give the thread a bump.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow. A matched pair of Sylvania Black Plate 6BQ5's went for $91 on EBAY.
> 
> WTF???



That's only because I have been wanting to buy some NOS el84's. Anything I want gets more expensive. I don't need 6AQ8's...I bet they are cheap, huh?


----------



## RiverRatt

I can hook you up with a bunch of 8BQ5's which are 8 volt EL84's. Just install an 8-volt filament transformer and you'll be in business. I'll sell them cheap, too.

I did sell a pair of Tungsram EL84's on eBay awhile back. I didn't have an amp to try them in, but they are supposed to be one of the best EL84's out there.


----------



## sccloser

I don't need a matched pair, which is why I can't believe I can't get anything cheap that I bid on. I only need one at a time in the Class5.


----------



## sccloser

How much trouble is it to change the tranny?


----------



## dodgethis

I finally caved in and bought a matched quartet of JJ KT77s from tubedepot last night and hoping they arrive by mid-week via FedEx. I will be spending less than what it cost me to get a set of EL34s here in Singapore. The shop I called wanted SGD40 for the normal JJ EL34s and SGD*70* for *ONE * blue glass EL34. I dread the price for the KT77. 

Hopefully, I will be cranking my JVM by the next weekend.


----------



## MartyStrat54

40 years ago, you could have picked up a transformer catalog and found a power tranny with the same HV and a choice of five or six heater voltages, plus the 5V for a rectifier.

Nowadays, the tube transformer market is very micro and the selection is all standard. Sorry, but no 8V heaters available in today's market.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> How much trouble is it to change the tranny?



Just pullin' your chain. It's possible, but not really feasible. I don't even know if you could find an 8v filament transformer, and then if you took your power tubes off the heater tap on your tranny, you'd probably have your other tubes running too high.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey dodgethis-Good to see ya as always. Just a note about JJ's. The E34L is a better sounding tube than the EL34. Just so you know.

What made you decide to go with the KT77's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, what Marty said, too. I hate simultaneous posting.


----------



## dodgethis

I would say it would be three factors.

1. Less compression. 
2. More headroom.
3. Smoother highs.

Also, I wanted to try something different.


----------



## RiverRatt

Try some of the Russian 6P14P tubes. They sound like exactly what you're looking for.


----------



## dodgethis

Sounds way outta my budget, man...


----------



## RiverRatt

No, they are quite affordable. Check out eBay. If you can see a good picture of the tubes, the date will probably be printed on them as a MMYY format. The ones from the 1970's are the ones you want. The 1980's are probably OK, too. I just took a quick glance on eBay and found quads for around $20. There's a Buy It Now listing for eight of the 1970's stock for $50.


----------



## dodgethis

Uh, those are for the EL84 family.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It was an honest mistake.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, sorry about that. I've been a pretty stressed out the last few days. If you ever end up with an EL84 amp, maybe you'll remember those.

One of my favorite EL34's is the Groove Tubes EL34M. They are made by Shuguang and sound great in a Marshall. They are a really smooth tube. The only thing is, they may not have quite the headroom of a JJ E34L. I like this about the EL34M, but you may not. I've heard several people say they do have similar qualities to the old Mullard xf2 EL34's which is not bad at all.


----------



## incidentslip

just had my tech drop in a quad of the tungsol ri 5881's into my 6100. WOW nice!!!! he had to lower the plate voltage a bit to make it safe for them but i am amazed at how good the amp sounds now. cleans are fantastic, lead channel is crazy good, no matter how you set it(Warren Haynes to Slayer). but the crunch channel is where these tubes rule, this amp lacked drive in the sound, and that famous marshall upper harmonic content, these have it in spades, even with the guitar volume lowered, it sounds fantasic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you know how the tech lowered the plate voltage? What was it and what is it now?


----------



## incidentslip

Hey Marty, I don't know how or what he did exactly, I just read the warning that accompanied the description of the tube characteristics on the tube description from the Tube store website, just said that they are great tubes but need slightly lower plate voltages. I do know that this amp sounds absolutely fantastic now. The clean channel used to have a brittle, ice picky clean, now it's smooth, and really sweet, almost vox-ish. Even with the bright bridge pu on my SRV strat, I can dime the channel vol., hammer the strings and it's smooth and sweet, even with the mid and treb cranked and the bright switch in. The yellow channel, which was kind of lifeless, is unbelieveable...in jtm45, with both vol's in the middle, it's a slightly pushed version of the clean, plexi mode, same settings gives me the sound that Audley Freed gets on the beginning of the Germino Club 40 demo, except slightly closer to a jtm 45/100, better bottom end and slightly chimier highs, which was missing when the 6L6's were in there. On the 3rd mode, total pushed 800/ brown plexi, that cleans up well with the guitar vol...no real loss of high end either, as well, all pick up settings are distinct, but never too bright or muddy, unlike before. Whatever he did, he brought this amp back to life for me, gonna gig it tonight...i'll post back with my thoughts. I'd have to say somewhere between 400 and 425volts


----------



## eljeffebrown

MM54 said:


> What 18 watter? Am I building amps in my sleep again?



Yea that little guy that you built, we were going to build them together? am I trippin'


----------



## eljeffebrown

So I stuck two of these in my 900DR 4500 and HOLY CRAP, top end smoothed out, low mids punch in the gut, lows tight! I won't go back to E34L's.


----------



## dodgethis

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, sorry about that. I've been a pretty stressed out the last few days. If you ever end up with an EL84 amp, maybe you'll remember those.
> 
> One of my favorite EL34's is the Groove Tubes EL34M. They are made by Shuguang and sound great in a Marshall. They are a really smooth tube. The only thing is, they may not have quite the headroom of a JJ E34L. I like this about the EL34M, but you may not. I've heard several people say they do have similar qualities to the old Mullard xf2 EL34's which is not bad at all.



Thanks for the heads up, dude. My next amp most likely would an AC30 of some sort, anyway.


----------



## MM54

eljeffebrown said:


> Yea that little guy that you built, we were going to build them together? am I trippin'



The CA10? It's 10 watts and is going into production-ish this summer  That reply was so long ago I don't remember what you asked about it, but if it was in this thread, so I'll assume it was about power tubes. It'll run pretty much any standard octal power tube, EL34, 6CA7, 6L6 (GC, GB, and G), 5881, and should run 6550's, KT88's, etc but I don't have any (yet) to test that out.

I'd still like to do a joint build sometime though, that'd be fun!

Edit: As a warning, if we do do the joint build, expect freaky things since I've been thinking of experimenting with weird weird designs...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jeff-I'm glad you went with a 6CA7's. I really like them. I run both NOS and EH 6CA7's. I'm very happy with the tonal range I get out of them. 

Sounds like you are getting your amp dialed in. Glad to hear it.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Jeff-I'm glad you went with a 6CA7's. I really like them. I run both NOS and EH 6CA7's. I'm very happy with the tonal range I get out of them.
> 
> Sounds like you are getting your amp dialed in. Glad to hear it.



Very dialed, it is sounding so titties! I ran through a Mesa dual recto cab this weekend also and that improved my tone a little more. Between the new Guitar, your NOS tubes, the 6CA7's and the cab, my rig sounds like............


----------



## dodgethis

Ahhhhh, Damnation Crusade, my favourite 40k graphic novel.


----------



## dodgethis

And goddamn, if the EH 6CA7s can turn my JVM into Tankred, I should have bought those instead!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I run the EH 6CA7's in two of my amps and NOS 6CA7's in my 2204.


----------



## eljeffebrown

I'm gonna try and get some footage of the new tone up soon.


----------



## sccloser

Got a Mullard el 84 on the way for the class 5.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Got a Mullard el 84 on the way for the class 5.



I haven't tried the Mullard yet. Look forward to hearing about it. I have played a Class 5 though so I have an idea about it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I dig smaller single-ended EL84 amps. There's a bark that they have that nothing else can do. Strangely, I hear the least difference in brands of power tubes in these amps as well.


----------



## sccloser

I am hoping that I will hear a difference since these amps are able to drive the pt hard. I am hoping for a sweet, warm tone.


----------



## dodgethis

It took them three days but FedEx finally put my tubes on a plane. Thankfully, they have a route that flies to Singapore via Osaka. I hope the package can be here by the weekend.

Edit Oh happpy daaaaaaaaaay.


----------



## dodgethis

Even with FedEx shipping all the way to Singapore, they still cost me less than what a local wanted me to pay for JJ EL34s, USD30 *a* tube.


----------



## DirtySteve

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I haven't tried the Mullard yet. Look forward to hearing about it. I have played a Class 5 though so I have an idea about it.





sccloser said:


> I am hoping that I will hear a difference since these amps are able to drive the pt hard. I am hoping for a sweet, warm tone.



I'd love to know what you think, too. The only NOS el84 I tried in my C5 was a Soviet Military el84 that I thought killed the tone. I've been kind of looking for another brand to try, but I wish I had more of an idea on which ones might work best. That's the reason for my hesitation, I just don't want to spend the money on another one and not like it.



RiverRatt said:


> I dig smaller single-ended EL84 amps. There's a bark that they have that nothing else can do. Strangely, I hear the least difference in brands of power tubes in these amps as well.



I haven't heard much difference in the CP el84s I've tried, but that Soviet tube was a huge difference. It had noticably less gain and more headroom.


----------



## solarburn

DirtySteve said:


> I haven't heard much difference in the CP el84s I've tried, but that Soviet tube was a huge difference. It had noticably less gain and more headroom.



Those make a clear diff for sure. From what I've read the Mullard's will break up early. I'm wondering how pleasant the saturation is. Hopefully it won't make the amp fart out more. Power tubes that break up readily/early can have that effect and be too loose for amps like a Class 5. Will see though.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm liking that little Vox AC4TV mini. It's only got a 6.5" speaker, but once you learn to work around the limits of that it's a nice sounding little amp. Not very tube-friendly, though. You have to pretty much take it apart. 

I've got three old Sittard Holland rX3 EL84's that I haven't tried out yet, but they are supposed to be one of the best ever made. They are 1950s production with D getters.


----------



## solarburn

Ooh! Wonder what those sound like...


----------



## RiverRatt

Can't find out tonight... I'm off to the next to the last high school football game of the season. Maybe this weekend.


----------



## sccloser

That's Alan for you...running off to have fun when there is work to be done....


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> That's Alan for you...running off to have fun when there is work to be done....



My wife had a doctor's appointment this evening so she wasn't planning to got to the game. It was fookin' cool at that game. Plus me and my son both got out of the house without our hoodies. I was so busy trying to get my 16-year-old daughter out of the house that I didn't notice. He had on two shirts so I stopped and bought a jacket on the way to the game. We won 51-34 and that makes it sound like more of a game than it was. We were playing the third team when they started scoring. They did execute a couple of nice on-side kicks. We got one and they got one. Our guys marched down the field at around 5 to 15 yards each play. Burned off plenty of the clock and scored on all but two of those drives. This is with a sophomore quarterback who got his first gametime this season. He'll be playing college ball, probably division 1.

It's been a bad year, a "rebuilding" year. You'll see this QB at a good Division 1 college in about 3 years. He's got a rifle for an arm, and he's a Sophomore. Kendall Atkinson is his name. This kid will play college ball. I don't know the actual stats, but I'm guessing 300 to 400 yards passing tonight. They hooked up on several 50+ yard plays, he rushed for 3 touchdowns. Pretty good stuff. The kid only threw one interception tonight. He's got a great touch.

I guess tomorrow I get to watch Tennessee get their asses handed to them by Aladamnbama.


----------



## thrawn86

sccloser said:


> I am hoping that I will hear a difference since these amps are able to drive the pt hard. I am hoping for a sweet, warm tone.



When I put them in my amp, I noticed a HUGE difference; I had Ei's in there before too, which are no slouches. And then I got Marty's Tone Pack and it was all over. But the Mullards are great.


----------



## jammattjam

Whats up guys? Looks like Im having to replace the 4 KT88 in my head. Is there a bad ass brand I should know about? What do you guys recommend? Price wise its like $200 plus right?


----------



## RickyLee

Calling out to Marty!

Need your help on some power valves. I am looking to purchase a quad of the NOS RFT EL34's to try in my just completed 2555 build. And I want to try these RFT's in my modified DSL100 as well. Could you point me to the seller you guys were talking about here some time ago? Or are you a seller for these yourself?


----------



## MartyStrat54

His name is BMSanborn. I just looked and he does not have any EL34's for sale.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RFT HOT RODS EL34 4x Quad Tubes Vintage | eBay

That's about the best I could find for you on EBAY. I can't believe how expensive the Sylvania 6CA7's have gotten.

One thing about Sanborn's tubes is that they were NOS that were bought in crates. He repacked them in white boxes and sold a quad for around $225.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> One thing about Sanborn's tubes is that they were NOS that were bought in crates. He repacked them in white boxes and sold a quad for around $225.



What I liked about Sanborn is that he sells good quality tubes and stands behind them. It doesn't matter if it's an RFT or cheap CP tubes.

He might have some listed soon. He seems to go through dry spells but he always comes up with more. You could probably send him a message through eBay and find out.


----------



## mickeydg5

Have RFT's always been that high in price? I thought they may have been a little cheaper than the Mullards, Amperex & Tele's. Anyone have some comparison knowledge? Thank you.


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought a matched pair of NOS RFT EL34s for my DSL back around early 2009 and they were $100. They've stayed pretty close to that price - around $50-$60 per tube. Tubes just aren't selling like they used to. I sold a matched quad of NOS Mullard EL34's on eBay back in the summer that only sold for $308.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok, wow. I was reading this thread and opened Ebay to have a look at el34 and 6ca7. I glanced and saw some Mullards at $82. At a second look I found out they were not matched. So I looked around some more and it's almost sparatic. Some are selling for $80 per tube with some sets anywhere from $100 upwards to almost $200. I guess it depends on the make, the test scores and whose buying.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there is sometimes a problem with the seller being truthful about how well the set is matched. This is why I quit selling NOS power tubes. I would buy them and they wouldn't be matched. I sent quit a few sets back to the sellers. 

As far a RFT versus other tubes? Mullard xf series tubes will out pace the RFT's. The two most popular EL34's that were relabeled were the Mullard (Amperex, Valvo) and the RFT (about two dozen sellers relabeled the RFT's).


----------



## mickeydg5

To be fair to the seller, he stated a pair of XF2 tubes. His description indicated matching codes. The test = 5500 for one and 6500 for the other, about a 15% difference. Not bad for the price if you are gathering those particular tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matching codes do not mean matching tubes. You wouldn't be able to bias up that pair of tubes. (I know you realize this.)

This is why one tube or odd pairs (quads) do not fetch as much money as a matched set.


----------



## MM54

And as such part of the inspiration for the CA10 was being able to run these individual tubes which have no partner


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. A SE amp running a single power tube is the most economical way to use those odd ball single tubes.


----------



## MM54

Thus all you tube guys should consider putting in an order when they're being taken for a CA10 this summer


----------



## DirtySteve

I can't wait to see what all those different power tubes are like. All the tube amps I've owned took EL84s except my Rebel had EL84's and 6V6's and I didn't really care for the 6V6 side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's what attracted me to that Rebel, but I tried one out and I didn't like the 6V6 side either. Of course, it could have been those CP 6V6 tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll probably get flamed for this, but I don't think the 6V6GT is a good tube in a push/pull amp. In a small single-ended ciruit like a Fender Champ I think they sound pretty good. I don't like the way they take a squat when you push them hard, though. It's just not a very musical sound to me. I've got several NOS 6V6GT's lying around with nothing to do with them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I will agree. The 6V6 is sort of like the nasty little brother to the 6550. I don't like the 6550 either. Too sterile and not enough crunch.

Here is a company that makes a great SE 6V6 amp.

swart amplifier co ~ Amplifiers


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello Daniel,
> 
> This is Marty from the Marshall Forum. The tube guy. I have had numerous 
> requests for info on the JJ 6CA7's. I use two sets of EH 6CA7's and I 
> really like them. Of course, the EH's have been on the market a lot 
> longer than the JJ's. I only know of a few bad EH 6CA7 tubes from my 
> circle of user's. I personally have not had any problems with my EH 6CA7's.
> 
> How are the JJ's? Are they as reliable as the EH? Any comment about 
> their internal build compared to the other? Does your staff or tester 
> prefer one over the other?
> 
> Any info on the JJ would be appreciated so I could post it up on the forum.
> 
> Also a side question. How is the JJ EL844 doing? Has it been well 
> received? Is the market good on them?
> 
> Thanks again, Marty Overbey


Hello Marty,

Dan passed your message along to me as he thought I'd better be able to help.

Regarding the JJ 6CA7s, like you know, they haven't been around that long yet. 
About a year, but we've had them for much less. All in all, they appear to be 
very good. The reported failure rate is very low, but not quite as low as 
we've seen with EH. But I think it's too early to really know how they'll hold 
up. 

As for the EL844, it's good for some folks, not for others. It's a real 
odd-ball thing and it seems to gel with amps better than others. Again, we 
haven't had them too long yet so I think the jury is still out as to what and 
where they are a clear winner.

Regards,
jon@thetubestore.com


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Thus all you tube guys should consider putting in an order when they're being taken for a CA10 this summer



Matt, if I had some cash I'd be first in line. I loved your demo's and the amp sounds well-designed and well thought out, too. Money is just too tight right now. Maybe things will pick up by next summer.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> As for the EL844, it's good for some folks, not for others. It's a real
> odd-ball thing and it seems to gel with amps better than others. Again, we
> haven't had them too long yet so I think the jury is still out as to what and
> where they are a clear winner.



I still don't understand how this tube is supposed to operate. I've had EL84's with the same characteristics as they describe with the EL844. I just usually write WEAK on the tube or tube box and toss it into the junk bin.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, if I had some cash I'd be first in line. I loved your demo's and the amp sounds well-designed and well thought out, too. Money is just too tight right now. Maybe things will pick up by next summer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wilder wrote the 844 up and stated why it would not work as per JJ's specs. It made sense to me. EL84 amps are usually under 40 watts. I don't understand why someone would want less power? 

I would like to A/B a JJ EL84 versus the EL844 in a single ended mini amp.


----------



## johnfv

Matt, have you posted prices on the CA10 (or a link, etc.)? I like my Pico Valve a lot, I can see having a single ended low wattage amp in every room


----------



## johnfv

On the topic of power tubes (hey, I'm in the right thread - woohoo!): I just got some more of the 6P3S tubes that Alan scored. I don't know what other applications they work in but in the "any octal" amps like the Tweaker and the JCA Pico these things are magic...


----------



## MM54

johnfv said:


> Matt, have you posted prices on the CA10 (or a link, etc.)? I like my Pico Valve a lot, I can see having a single ended low wattage amp in every room



I'll have a link for information before too much longer here, but pricing I won't have until spring since material costs fluctuate a good bit, and I'm not working with much of a profit margin on these. I'll keep you in mind for when I get the information ready, but in case I forget, the link will be in my sig


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> On the topic of power tubes (hey, I'm in the right thread - woohoo!): I just got some more of the 6P3S tubes that Alan scored. I don't know what other applications they work in but in the "any octal" amps like the Tweaker and the JCA Pico these things are magic...



I was wondering if you had gotten those yet. How did the old 1965 set sound?


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> I was wondering if you had gotten those yet. How did the old 1965 set sound?


Not sure if I can try them tonight... gotta keep the boss happy. But having tried the last pair in both amps, I have great faith


----------



## RiverRatt

I may be wrong, but I'll bet they'll sound pretty close to the same.


----------



## RiverRatt

I may get up to Nashville and do some trading this weekend and pick up another Tweaker. I've got a new 2X12 cab with some Eminence Legends that I got from Cody that's still a virgin.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wilder wrote the 844 up and stated why it would not work as per JJ's specs. It made sense to me. EL84 amps are usually under 40 watts. I don't understand why someone would want less power?
> 
> I would like to A/B a JJ EL84 versus the EL844 in a single ended mini amp.



Hey guys,

I have the JJ el844's in my dsl 401. I was doing all I could to get more bass response out of that amp and I thought that these may help. They appear to have helped, but I was also using jj ecc83 pre's, so some of the bass response could be due to those. The 844's have a little lower output, which I did not know about prior to purchase, but I do have a noticeable volume decrease. On the clean channel (green) if I crank it some I get a really good, stout old school Marshall sort of tone out of it. Nice, full o/d with some punch. Seems to be better than with the Ei el 84's that was in it prior, and they still check strong on my testers. 

I have played the amp clean for some performances in our church, with the master up about 2 o'clock and it stayed pretty clean and was loud enough to carry without being mic'd up. Had a nice, full clean sound with the MIA tele, both pickups. I got a lot of compliments on how nice it sounded. So the volume is still up there a bit.

I can't really say the el844's are better than the el84's or not. They seem to give me the extra lows that I was after with this trebly amp. And the breakup seems a bit better and smoother at high volume, but with this high gain amp, that is not really needed. But again, if you really like the green channel (and I do) and want some good crunch on the green, I think it may help.

I am not sure if I would buy them again. In band practice situations, I have to really crank it now to be heard, more so than before. But I rarely use it for that anymore.

I guess the best I can describe them to you is that they sound pretty good and seem to boost low end a bit, but otherwise they are uninspiring as there seems to be nothing really spectacular about them. Ideally, I would guess if you want to push the amp hard on the green channel, but you want to limit the overall vol a bit, then these are the tubes for you.

I have a decibel meter. Maybe this weekend I will crank it with the Ei's and the el844's and compare the overall volume for you guys if you are at all interested. If not, I will spare my neighbors...haha!


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I may get up to Nashville and do some trading this weekend and pick up another Tweaker. I've got a new 2X12 cab with some Eminence Legends that I got from Cody that's still a virgin.



Can the Tweaker get close to the Marshall sound...the growl?


----------



## johnfv

sccloser said:


> Can the Tweaker get close to the Marshall sound...the growl?


IMO, the Tweaker particularly shines in the Fender realm. However, it is a great all around amp. Alan posted a clip doing AC/DC that shows it can do a very convincing Marshall...


----------



## johnfv

Gotta duck out tonight before I get into any more trouble. Hope to try the '65 6P3S tomorrow...


----------



## RiverRatt

With the 6P3S tubes I think it leans a little more toward Fender, too. Those clips were done with 6V6GT's and a pair of old Tung-Sol 5881's. I'll stick them in here if you'll excuse the playing. I was going for tone, not accuracy. That usually works out better for me.

The first clip is with either the Egnater stock 6V6GT's or some I had lying around and a Marshall 1966B 2x12 with G12T-75's. That probably helped the Marshall tones a bit. The second is with the Tung-Sol 5881's which are one of my favorite output tubes. Those Russian 63PS tubes blow the Tung-Sols out of the water, but I don't have a clip to back it up.

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/262779_jtpf0/shotdown_6V6.mp3

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/262777_eado7/shotdown.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Gotta duck out tonight before I get into any more trouble. Hope to try the '65 6P3S tomorrow...



Rest easy, John. I gotta get some sleep too if I'm going to make it through the week. Plenty of time for tube rolling tomorrow.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Those Russian 63PS tubes blow the Tung-Sols out of the water, but I don't have a clip to back it up...


OK, I am on the hook for getting a "Fenderish" clip with the 63PS tubes in the Tweaker. The other night I ran it stereo clean/dirty with the 2204 and it was a hell of a thing...


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> With the 6P3S tubes I think it leans a little more toward Fender, too. Those clips were done with 6V6GT's and a pair of old Tung-Sol 5881's. I'll stick them in here if you'll excuse the playing. I was going for tone, not accuracy. That usually works out better for me.
> 
> The first clip is with either the Egnater stock 6V6GT's or some I had lying around and a Marshall 1966B 2x12 with G12T-75's. That probably helped the Marshall tones a bit. The second is with the Tung-Sol 5881's which are one of my favorite output tubes. Those Russian 63PS tubes blow the Tung-Sols out of the water, but I don't have a clip to back it up.
> 
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/262779_jtpf0/shotdown_6V6.mp3
> 
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/262777_eado7/shotdown.mp3



Thanks!

Yeah the 5881's sounded a bit tighter on the bottom and had better highs...a little more definition. But both sounded fairly similar in the clips. 

That was kinda Marshall-esque, but lacks that Marshall growl when you hit that G...that's what I listen for. Chris Matthews gets a tingle up his leg when Pres. Obama speaks, I get a tingle up my leg when I hit an open G on my LP in front of a full Marshall stack.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SC-Are you still running the GOLD speaker in your DSL401? If so, get rid of it. I've had several 401's and they all got a new speaker. I wish they made a 16 ohm Black Powder. I would stick one of those in there. I use a Eminence Red Fang in my 401. I don't like it as much as I used to. Some of that is due to the fact that I have tried a lot of speakers.

I would like to try a 401 with a Swamp Thang or a Man 'O War. These are more bass heavy and will tame the highs of a 401.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> SC-Are you still running the GOLD speaker in your DSL401? If so, get rid of it. I've had several 401's and they all got a new speaker. I wish they made a 16 ohm Black Powder. I would stick one of those in there.



You should throw one in a 1x12 cab, disconnect your internal, and flip the switch to 8 ohms and give us a review.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello Daniel,
> >
> > This is Marty from the Marshall Forum. The tube guy. I have had numerous
> > requests for info on the JJ 6CA7's. I use two sets of EH 6CA7's and I
> > really like them. Of course, the EH's have been on the market a lot
> > longer than the JJ's. I only know of a few bad EH 6CA7 tubes from my
> > circle of user's. I personally have not had any problems with my EH 6CA7's.
> >
> > How are the JJ's? Are they as reliable as the EH? Any comment about
> > their internal build compared to the other? Does your staff or tester
> > prefer one over the other?
> >
> > Any info on the JJ would be appreciated so I could post it up on the forum.
> >
> > Also a side question. How is the JJ EL844 doing? Has it been well
> > received? Is the market good on them?
> >
> > Thanks again, Marty Overbey
> 
> 
> Hello Marty,
> 
> Dan passed your message along to me as he thought I'd better be able to help.
> 
> Regarding the JJ 6CA7s, like you know, they haven't been around that long yet.
> About a year, but we've had them for much less. All in all, they appear to be
> very good. The reported failure rate is very low, but not quite as low as
> we've seen with EH. But I think it's too early to really know how they'll hold
> up.
> 
> As for the EL844, it's good for some folks, not for others. It's a real
> odd-ball thing and it seems to gel with amps better than others. Again, we
> haven't had them too long yet so I think the jury is still out as to what and
> where they are a clear winner.
> 
> Regards,
> jon@thetubestore.com



I'll post a clip tomorrow night if I can get to it. I am going to record my amp tomorrow at rehearsal with the new MHD pickup and some EMG's so you guys can hear the difference. Clips coming of the JJ 6CA7's I promise!


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> SC-Are you still running the GOLD speaker in your DSL401? If so, get rid of it. I've had several 401's and they all got a new speaker. I wish they made a 16 ohm Black Powder. I would stick one of those in there. I use a Eminence Red Fang in my 401. I don't like it as much as I used to. Some of that is due to the fact that I have tried a lot of speakers.
> 
> I would like to try a 401 with a Swamp Thang or a Man 'O War. These are more bass heavy and will tame the highs of a 401.



I still have the stock speaker in mine. But, a good bit of the time, I have been playing it through a 1960 with 75's. That helps a lot.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers....can anyone tell me what tubes these might be....I'm thinkin' Teslas....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice selection of Data Spec Sheets.

datasheets


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Hey Rawkers....can anyone tell me what tubes these might be....I'm thinkin' Teslas....



Yeah, they are Tesla tubes. They should have a couple of sets of numbers on the other side, a 3-digit and a 2-digit.

Here's that pair I scored awhile back. If anyone can read Tesla date codes, please clue me in.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## 61rocker

Wish I could help there....mine has B5 on the back of them...... I love the way these sound in my JCM800 2210...(which I have said ad nausea....), but I have a set of Siemans and old Svetlana, and these both sound good, but the Teslas really get the type of crunch, mids, and breakup I like...Thx Alan....


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-What's the difference between a Tesla E34L and an EL34M. I keep thinking of the Groove Tube EL34M.


----------



## 61rocker

The seller doesn't know for sure, but claim they are vintage...they look right to me...I held up one my known Teslas to the pic....I have seen Marshall branded Tesla EL34Ms before, and Groove Tube branded Teslas......my take on that was GT called any "Mullard" type of EL34 an "M", and carried that on......very uneducated guess....My Teslas have Ruby...printed on them as well as the original Tesla, and the Ruby print says EL34CZ.......where the Tesla print has the "Tesla", EL34, and the 37 factory code witha B5 on the back...one still has the 3 digit number, but that one is downstairs in my amp.....


----------



## 61rocker

I may be able to answer that on in appearance anyway.....(Ooooh ohhhh, Mr. Kotter)....the EL34Ls have what I read was an extension (or wider plate) on the plate for cooling, and are supposed to have a higher output than a regular EL34.....those Teslavok tubes I got awhile back are "L"s and you can see the differance...BTW, that seller still claimes they are made in the last days of the Tesla factory, but did give a discount on them....they have more of a rounded top on them than earlier Teslas,also, had the unique double getter....and seem to sound really good....strong...there are so many tubes and variations out there...it's hard to keep up with...I did look up the Teslovacs you posted and found the type of font on the print is different on the newer ones than the ones I have..simelar but diffently different....


----------



## RiverRatt

The only place I see the EL34M on a Tesla tube is on the ones with the Marshall logo on them. I'm thinking (and I'm probably wrong) that the M is just regular production that was tagged for sale to Marshall. I haven't seen a lot of Tesla EL34's but the ones I have seen seem to use the same materials and construction.

I'd love to find a set of blue Teslas. You hardly ever see them and when they do turn up, they usually sell pretty high.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry 61, I didn't mean to step on your answer. I've never seen a Tesla E34L in person. I don't understand the need for an upgraded EL34 - there were plenty of other options out there at the time.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> The only place I see the EL34M on a Tesla tube is on the ones with the Marshall logo on them. I'm thinking (and I'm probably wrong) that the M is just regular production that was tagged for sale to Marshall. I haven't seen a lot of Tesla EL34's but the ones I have seen seem to use the same materials and construction.
> 
> I'd love to find a set of blue Teslas. You hardly ever see them and when they do turn up, they usually sell pretty high.


 
I saw a set recently on ebay and they were pricey.....seller claimed the blue glass were made better, kind of like the fabled "Rosemary" Marshall??


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry 61, I didn't mean to step on your answer. I've never seen a Tesla E34L in person. I don't understand the need for an upgraded EL34 - there were plenty of other options out there at the time.


 
You guys would know more than me, but that was some info I saw on the EL34L not too long ago....I will always stand corrected, but it felt good for a second to maybe have an answer instead of a question for once...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was looking at the NOVAR 7868 tube. I didn't realize they were rated at 550VDC on the plates and 440VDC on the screen. Wow! Pretty hot for a small tube. I'd like to have a modern hand wired amp that used a pair of these. I had a smokin' 35 watt Bogen amp, but it doesn't work any more. Very unique overdrive tone from these tubes. The CP version has thicker pins and will actually stretch the socket and then if you want to use NOS tubes you will have a problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Alan-A guy sold two quad sets of blue Tesla's EL34's and made almost $800. That's a lot of dough for blue glass.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was looking at the NOVAR 7868 tube. I didn't realize they were rated at 550VDC on the plates and 440VDC on the screen. Wow! Pretty hot for a small tube. I'd like to have a modern hand wired amp that used a pair of these. I had a smokin' 35 watt Bogen amp, but it doesn't work any more. Very unique overdrive tone from these tubes. The CP version has thicker pins and will actually stretch the socket and then if you want to use NOS tubes you will have a problem.



I have a Sylvania 7868 that tests as ANOS. It's really not that small of a tube, but it's cool nonetheless. The Novar base is just a bit weird


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Alan-A guy sold two quad sets of blue Tesla's EL34's and made almost $800. That's a lot of dough for blue glass.



The way my luck runs, I'd find a set and the price would instantly drop to about $50 per tube. That's pretty close to what happened with my Mullard xf2's. I wish I had put at least a $400 reserve on that auction.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice selection of Data Spec Sheets.
> 
> datasheets



I downloaded the Windows app from the Duncan Amps web page. It's called the TDSL (Tube Data Sheet Locator). You can run as many instances of the program as you like and compare data sheets side-by-side. It's a pretty cool app for a tube hound.

Here's the online version: 
TDSL Tube search

Here's the downloadable app:
TDSL PE


----------



## Jesstaa

What are some good affordable EL34s? 
I'm thinking of JJ's or EH 6CA7's.


----------



## solarburn

Jesstaa said:


> What are some good affordable EL34s?
> I'm thinking of JJ's or EH 6CA7's.



El jeffe just got some JJ 6CA7's and loves em'. May want to try them. The EH's were good in my DSL. Marty runs them in his.


----------



## sccloser

For the money the JJ e34L tubes are very good IMO.


----------



## johnfv

FWIW, I've been happy with the EH EL34 (I have them in my 2204HW). I have some old Teslas in my 1959T that still sound great. I have a pair of EH 6CA7s that I plan to put in my Hiwatt 50, just haven't had time yet.


----------



## sccloser

Hiwatt! Is that a Bulldog 50?


----------



## johnfv

sccloser said:


> Hiwatt! Is that a Bulldog 50?


It's an 80s Lead 50, pretty high gain for a Hiwatt (there's a pic in my profile album). Sounds excellent, imagine a 2204 and a vintage Hiwatt had a love child  I need to get off my butt and put those 6CA7s in there, it has some tired Ruby EL34s now...


----------



## eljeffebrown

Jesstaa said:


> What are some good affordable EL34s?
> I'm thinking of JJ's or EH 6CA7's.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> El jeffe just got some JJ 6CA7's and loves em'. May want to try them. The EH's were good in my DSL. Marty runs them in his.





johnfv said:


> FWIW, I've been happy with the EH EL34 (I have them in my 2204HW). I have some old Teslas in my 1959T that still sound great. I have a pair of EH 6CA7s that I plan to put in my Hiwatt 50, just haven't had time yet.



So here we go. JJ 6CA7's are UNBELIEVABLE, why you say, here is why. I love the sound of a Marshall amp because they sound like a guitar is SUPPOSED to sound like. What I mean by this is a Marshall is ALL Mids that is what they were built for. I know what Jim was thinking when he built the first one, "I need this acoustic to be louder, how can I keep the sound of the guitar the same, just make it louder" so he built the Marshall amp, Known for all of it's Mids and cutting ability but on the flipside of this you have the potential for an amp to sound a little anemic at times also, sure it cuts through the crowd like a knife but it has no real personality of it own other than being "a Marshall" well, not anymore. Combining a NOS front end and a JJ 6CA7 power section has changed the voice of my Marshall to a warm, full, alive monster. I have been playing with these tubes now for two weeks (well two shows) and have not had the chance to really sit and listen to them, they are so BIG sounding. The JJ E34L is a great tube and all I have ever used but it sounds so, thin and puny compared to these.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this, there was a reason Marshall started messing around with 6L6's and 5881's, it seems they were trying to solve the somewhat anemic quality that a Marshall can have with the EL34, but they completely missed the mark by NOT trying the 6CA7, it's the best of both worlds!

anyway, here is a clip, high gain but I think you'll be able to hear the differance, I can.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzLRNrCwapw]Marshall 6CA7 tone - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## mickeydg5

What is up with interest in STR's? They are just Mesa numbers, relabeled tubes.

Mesa Boogie Premium Vacuum Tubes


*SORRY, I read about this on the first page. (over two years back)*


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> What is up with interest in STR's? They are just Mesa numbers, relabeled tubes.
> 
> Mesa Boogie Premium Vacuum Tubes
> 
> 
> *SORRY, I read about this on the first page. (over two years back)*



I see that they still have NOS Siemens EL34's on their list. Those are RFT EL34's and are really nice tubes.


----------



## Jesstaa

eljeffebrown said:


> So here we go. JJ 6CA7's are UNBELIEVABLE, why you say, here is why. I love the sound of a Marshall amp because they sound like a guitar is SUPPOSED to sound like. What I mean by this is a Marshall is ALL Mids that is what they were built for.



Well I'm convinced.
I love mids.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I see that they still have NOS Siemens EL34's on their list. Those are RFT EL34's and are really nice tubes.


 
Yes, those are nice, just don't pay too much for them.


----------



## RiverRatt

MESA has them listed at $150 a pair (subject to availability). I'd heard they weren't selling these anymore. You can usually find them for $100-$120 elsewhere.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> MESA has them listed at $150 a pair (subject to availability). I'd heard they weren't selling these anymore. You can usually find them for $100-$120 elsewhere.


 

There is a quad for $159, no shipping $, if you don't mind Bulgaria.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I get nervous every time I do an overseas deal. They all don't turn out good.

See Preamp Thread.


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> So here we go. JJ 6CA7's are UNBELIEVABLE, why you say, here is why. I love the sound of a Marshall amp because they sound like a guitar is SUPPOSED to sound like. What I mean by this is a Marshall is ALL Mids that is what they were built for. I know what Jim was thinking when he built the first one, "I need this acoustic to be louder, how can I keep the sound of the guitar the same, just make it louder" so he built the Marshall amp, Known for all of it's Mids and cutting ability but on the flipside of this you have the potential for an amp to sound a little anemic at times also, sure it cuts through the crowd like a knife but it has no real personality of it own other than being "a Marshall" well, not anymore. Combining a NOS front end and a JJ 6CA7 power section has changed the voice of my Marshall to a warm, full, alive monster. I have been playing with these tubes now for two weeks (well two shows) and have not had the chance to really sit and listen to them, they are so BIG sounding. The JJ E34L is a great tube and all I have ever used but it sounds so, thin and puny compared to these.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is this, there was a reason Marshall started messing around with 6L6's and 5881's, it seems they were trying to solve the somewhat anemic quality that a Marshall can have with the EL34, but they completely missed the mark by NOT trying the 6CA7, it's the best of both worlds!
> 
> anyway, here is a clip, high gain but I think you'll be able to hear the differance, I can.
> 
> Marshall 6CA7 tone - YouTube



Holy cow Jeffe! I feel like I'm getting punched in the face every time you palm mute! Actually it sounds nice and chunky with a thick rich saturation. The only problem is its killing the camera mike with sheer force of sound.

I'm waiting for some nice "classic rock" so I can hear those beloved dynamics shine through.LOL

I'm joking!!!!!!!!!


----------



## johnfv

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ...I feel like I'm getting punched in the face every time you palm mute!...


Some buddies I know call that muted chunky style "YUG". Jeffe is pumping some serious YUG!


----------



## solarburn

johnfv said:


> Some buddies I know call that muted chunky style "YUG". Jeffe is pumping some serious YUG!


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I get nervous every time I do an overseas deal. They all don't turn out good.
> 
> See Preamp Thread.


 
I know what you mean. That Bulgaria group has a lot of good feedback though. I once bought a set of CV1741's for $50 from somewhere over there. Preliminary test were good but I have not had a chance to fully play with them.


----------



## mickeydg5

johnfv said:


> Some buddies I know call that muted chunky style "YUG". Jeffe is pumping some serious YUG!


 

Well I guess i love YUG.


----------



## eljeffebrown

Joe they'll do it too. I just didn't have a whole bunch of time last night (like 20min) I had time to evaluate some good tone for what I do and then set up for rehearsal. 

My settings are now,

Treb 0
Bass 4
Mids 9
Pres 0
Gain 14

Vol 3


----------



## MartyStrat54

Treble 0. You gotta love that.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Treble 0. You gotta love that.



And let me explain why. It's the tone I look for, not the knobs or the numbers

what I had it at,

Then Now

Treb 2 / 0
Bass 5 / 4
Mids 9 / 9
Pres 2 / 0
Gain 16 / 14

Vol 3.5 / 3

What does this say to you, It's says to me gain increased adding treb which was reduced (along with gain), bass was increased because of the 6L6 characteristics of the tube, so that was reduced but the mids were left alone because of the EL34 characteristics of the tube. The good that was added was a smoothness that the EL34 severely lacks along with a warm breakup, add in a boosted low mid (also another reason for the decrease in bass) and you almost get an boosted high gain 2203 tone, it's hard to hear it from youtube but standing in the room my amp is ALL business now. anyone that uses EL34's should seriously look into a set of 6CA7's I got this pair shipped to me for $36 and I got them in 5 days.

P.S. I'm not sure where my vol increase comes from, maybe just new tubes but I have never had to run my head at 3 for rehearsal before. maybe the tone cuts better so I don't have to be as loud, I don't know..........


----------



## RiverRatt

I wish I'd tried the 6CA7's when I still had an EL34 amp. I've been using an EL34 amp for years, and the Vintage Modern really taught me a thing or two about power tubes. Those KT66's that Cody put in that head are killer - it really blows my old DSL out of the water. It sounds like what I always wanted the DSL to sound like. 

Jeff, that's a great tone but you gotta get a better recorder. Those little built-in condenser mics just won't handle those heavy-ass lows. I love palm mutes that rattle pictures off the wall. Kinda reminds me of Pantera, like the tone on A New Level. I love that V-I-V-I chord voicing, too (I think that's the right way to write it?).


----------



## eljeffebrown

RiverRatt said:


> I wish I'd tried the 6CA7's when I still had an EL34 amp. I've been using an EL34 amp for years, and the Vintage Modern really taught me a thing or two about power tubes. Those KT66's that Cody put in that head are killer - it really blows my old DSL out of the water. It sounds like what I always wanted the DSL to sound like.
> 
> Jeff, that's a great tone but you gotta get a better recorder. Those little built-in condenser mics just won't handle those heavy-ass lows. I love palm mutes that rattle pictures off the wall. Kinda reminds me of Pantera, like the tone on A New Level. I love that V-I-V-I chord voicing, too (I think that's the right way to write it?).



I know, I had my amp up at 4.5 when I was recording it's so loud at 4.5 it hurts! i'm not even kidding.  It was kinda clipping the mic a bit! my drummer has a nice Sony cam, I'll get some footage with it soon.


----------



## umart

hi all!logtime lurker,not so active poster.

good CP el34?and how that tube compares to CP EH 6ca7 and jj 6ca7?and jj 6ca7 vs eh 6ca7?i'm looking for nice poweramp saturation,and a bit vintage vibe in sound.think boosted classic Marshall drive in A drop tuning.


----------



## RiverRatt

A lot of people are liking the various 6CA7 - maybe someone will have an opinion for you. I always ran EL34's so I can't help you there.


WEIRD TUBE PROBLEM:
I have a pair of 5932 power tubes (a VERY rugged 6L6GA/GB replacement) that I've been waiting to try in the Tweaker 15 when I got it. Well, I got the Tweaker on Saturday and last night I got all up in it and changed everything around. So, when I try the 5932's I notice that one of them isn't glowing on standby. So I wiggled the tube a little bit and it lit up. About the time I was going to take the amp off standby, it went dark again. Same deal, wiggle the tube a little and it comes back on, so by now I'm hoping the new amp doesn't have a short in the 2nd octal socket. I swapped sides with the 5932's and the problem stayed with the tube. I'm glad is wasn't the amp, but what would make the heater light up like that and then go dark about a half-minute later?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> A lot of people are liking the various 6CA7 - maybe someone will have an opinion for you. I always ran EL34's so I can't help you there.
> 
> 
> WEIRD TUBE PROBLEM:
> I have a pair of 5932 power tubes (a VERY rugged 6L6GA/GB replacement) that I've been waiting to try in the Tweaker 15 when I got it. Well, I got the Tweaker on Saturday and last night I got all up in it and changed everything around. So, when I try the 5932's I notice that one of them isn't glowing on standby. So I wiggled the tube a little bit and it lit up. About the time I was going to take the amp off standby, it went dark again. Same deal, wiggle the tube a little and it comes back on, so by now I'm hoping the new amp doesn't have a short in the 2nd octal socket. I swapped sides with the 5932's and the problem stayed with the tube. I'm glad is wasn't the amp, but what would make the heater light up like that and then go dark about a half-minute later?


 
The filament is like that of a light bulb. Sometimes I see a bulb go out so I rotate and wiggle until the filament contacts and the bulb lights again. It does not last forever though. That could be it. Just wiggle it sideways to check. Do you hear or see any movement. Will the tube filament light when the amp is sideways? Do not put any amp in jeopardy.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> The filament is like that of a light bulb. Sometimes I see a bulb go out so I rotate and wiggle until the filament contacts and the bulb lights again. It does not last forever though. That could be it. Just wiggle it sideways to check. Do you hear or see any movement. Will the tube filament light when the amp is sideways? Do not put any amp in jeopardy.



I thought it might be a broken filament. Doing anything to the tube would make it light up again. It was weird though. When it lit up it would always stay like that for 10-15 seconds and then fade out again. These are supposed to be ultra-rugged tubes and they look it. I can still send the good one to Matt for his CA10. I'm just glad it wasn't a short on the board. 

I'm not taking any chances - like you say I think it would be a big mistake to take the amp off standby with that tube in. I'm through with it, except I just realized I could get my DMM and check for continuity. There's no way you would ever hear it rattle - this thing has thick glass and the base is half the height of the tube. It looks like it could fall off the back of a truck and keep working.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would have to agree with Mickey that it is an intermittent heater filament. 

I am curious to know whether a "really rugged" 6L6 would sound as good as a normal one.

Those later Sylvania (Philip's ECG's) 12AX7WA's didn't sound good and they were built rugged for avionics use in jet aircraft. Same with the ECG's 6550's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Maybe Matt can use the good one. It's rated the same as a 6L6GB and I know he's used those successfully.


----------



## MM54




----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't forgotten you Matt. I still have to go get my 10,186 tubes back from the HAM guy who's going through them and I'll put you together a package. It's almost like adding on a room with those things out of the house.

I will trade someone some choice 12AX7's if you can provide me with one of those old Logitech lighted keyboards. All I can find are black keyboards, and it's dark over here in my corner. I either have to turn the lights on or take 30 minutes to type a response. I'm dead serious. If it works, I'll do somebody right. When Skyrim comes out, I intend to have something better than the Walmart POS 2000 keyboard to use. The fockin' keys aren't even in the right place!!!!!!!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Maybe Matt can use the good one. It's rated the same as a 6L6GB and I know he's used those successfully.


 
5932 is like a 6L6WGA, 21w plate max.

All tubes fail sooner or later. Is that tweaker amp you talk about single ended? No filament, no worky. That would be like pulling the tube I guess and would not matter in a single ended amp, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

No it's a push/pull amp, phase inverter and all. I don't know enough about the tech side of it, but it'll self-bias to just about any octal power tube. I tried the PicoValve for swapping power tubes around and the Tweaker blows it away.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Will the Tweaker accept 7027A's?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, it's a different pinout.


----------



## MM54

Like I said, no rush RR 

I know what you mean about a backlit keyboard, I had always wanted one, and when I got this laptop, it came as a standard feature. IT'S SO NICE


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I've got a package going out to Joe, one for the winner of the contest, and a grab bag for you. I'll try for octal stuff that you can try in the CA10. I've still got to hook up with the HAM dude.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I will trade someone some choice 12AX7's if you can provide me with one of those old Logitech lighted keyboards. All I can find are black keyboards, and it's dark over here in my corner. I either have to turn the lights on or take 30 minutes to type a response. I'm dead serious. If it works, I'll do somebody right. When Skyrim comes out, I intend to have something better than the Walmart POS 2000 keyboard to use. The fockin' keys aren't even in the right place!!!!!!!



I'll look to see if I have one laying around in storage with my other office stuff...


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I will trade someone some choice 12AX7's if you can provide me with one of those old Logitech lighted keyboards. All I can find are black keyboards, and it's dark over here in my corner. I either have to turn the lights on or take 30 minutes to type a response. I'm dead serious. If it works, I'll do somebody right. When Skyrim comes out, I intend to have something better than the Walmart POS 2000 keyboard to use. The fockin' keys aren't even in the right place!!!!!!!



I picked up one of these (on the right)





Cuz I like to keep it dark when working on recording but was having trouble seeing the keys. I thought it was expensive until I saw that alot of the lit keyboards go for twice as much. It has served me well so far. It has a switch that shuts the light off if you choose. It seems super bright here cuz I took the pic without a flash with the room lights off.

My NOS power tubes haven't arrived yet. Hopefully this week sometime.
Then I'm going to get some pre's.


----------



## sccloser

[/IMG]

This is looking into the back of my dls401 at JJ el844 tubes. Amp is on standby. Turned out all lights, no flash on cell phone cam.

Do these look like they are red plating?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I left a comment over on the Preamp Tube thread.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> [/IMG]
> 
> This is looking into the back of my dls401 at JJ el844 tubes. Amp is on standby. Turned out all lights, no flash on cell phone cam.
> 
> Do these look like they are red plating?


 
The EL844 looks like it has a open plate design. I can see the filament practically all the way through. Those are the filaments you see.


----------



## mickeydg5

I guess the EL844 subject may come back. EL844 are more like 6CK6/EL83 than a EL84. Almost the same tubes but with a much higher plate resistance. The offset in plate resistance diminshes the bandwith of the OT causing the lower output and different tone.


----------



## sccloser

Yes, I definitely noticed a drop off in the output (volume) when I switched from el84's to the el844's. But The sound of the amp improved to my ears. It is kinda strange, actually, as the 844's are supposed to have less headroom and break up sooner, and this amp has enough overdrive (almost too much really) so it would seem that this would be unnecessary, however it does seem to sound better with the 844's. The 84's I took out still check good and are Ei's, so it had good tubes in it before.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I guess the EL844 subject may come back. EL844 are more like 6CK6/EL83 than a EL84. Almost the same tubes but with a much higher plate resistance. The offset in plate resistance diminshes the bandwith of the OT causing the lower output and different tone.



Can you run those in a cathode biased EL84 amp? Just curious. I think I have a few 6CK6's in my cache.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> Yes, I definitely noticed a drop off in the output (volume) when I switched from el84's to the el844's. But The sound of the amp improved to my ears. It is kinda strange, actually, as the 844's are supposed to have less headroom and break up sooner, and this amp has enough overdrive (almost too much really) so it would seem that this would be unnecessary, however it does seem to sound better with the 844's. The 84's I took out still check good and are Ei's, so it had good tubes in it before.


 


RiverRatt said:


> Can you run those in a cathode biased EL84 amp? Just curious. I think I have a few 6CK6's in my cache.


 
The higher plate resistance matched to your OT is attenuating the upper bandwith. Like you said before, it seems as if there are more lows. The EL844 is 9watt as opposed to the 12watt EL84. The EL84 actually has more transconductance than the EL844 but has a lower amplification factor. All in all the EL844 will put out 25-30% less power. Now you have to push your front end more to get volume. This plus the OT mismatch will yeild a more compressed, distorted, lower end mellower tone.

The 6CK6/EL83 will have a higher plate resistance but alsohave more transconductance as well as aplification factor. I would think tha this tube in comparison to the EL844 may be a little louder with more bandwith cut. You could try it. All three types have almost the same limiting characteristics.

My hunch is that someone had a EL83's sitting next to their EL84 amp and said LET ME GIVE THIS A TRY. So Mr. JJ, can you make me an EL83 that will not cut my high bandwith as much? Wa-la, an EL844!!!

In addition: Pin out of an EL83 vs an EL84 is slightly different.


----------



## RiverRatt

I may have to give one of those a try in my little Vox AC4TV. It could stand some cutting.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I may have to give one of those a try in my little Vox AC4TV. It could stand some cutting.


 
Give us details of your before and after.


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like it would need some re-wiring. I'll pass.


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5 said:


> The higher plate resistance matched to your OT is attenuating the upper bandwith. Like you said before, it seems as if there are more lows. The EL844 is 9watt as opposed to the 12watt EL84. The EL84 actually has more transconductance than the EL844 but has a lower amplification factor. All in all the EL844 will put out 25-30% less power. Now you have to push your front end more to get volume. This plus the OT mismatch will yeild a more compressed, distorted, lower end mellower tone.



Ok, this makes a lot of sense then. I was told when I got the jj el844's that they would enhance my lows. So if they are cutting some highs, then the effect is that I hear more lows. Before when I had the el84's, I had the bass up over 8, the treble under 2 and mids about 5 (gotta have those mids!) but with the el844's I have the bass up around 4 or 5, mids at 5 and treble about 4 and it sounds like it has much more bass that way than it did before. That is on the OD channels, of course. On the green (clean) channel, I still have the bass down to about 2 because it is boomy on the clean channel, but with the gain up to around 8 this is the classic marshall sounding channel!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Looks like it would need some re-wiring. I'll pass.


 
*Yes there is a little difference in pin out. 3 & 6 / 1 & 9 Base 9AR vs 9CV. **You'd have to check wiring and for jumpers.*

Not for the novice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well one thing I have learned about DSL401's is that they like NOS preamp and power tubes. That and a good speaker. The tone is so much better than stock. 

Also, I'm not into shaving power from a MV amp. If it is designed to push 40 watts, that's what I expect from it.

I doubt if I ever try the 844's.


----------



## sccloser

Well, shaving power was not what I had in mind. I did not know about that part when I first bought them. But I do think I got more bottom end and better tone from them. Remember, before I put the 844's in I was using a homemade diffuser/beam blocker to block out some of the highs I was getting in the dsl 401. Once I re-tubed, I did not need that anymore. Now, I admit that I put all JJ's in there since the jj12ax7's are darker, but I've rolled a few tubes since then through it and it has never been as bright as it was with the el84's. 

As far as the speaker, I have been running it through a 1960 cab with 75's in it for the last tube rolls I've done. But I have found that the stock speaker, while not stellar, doesn't sound near as bad as it did before I put the 844's in. 

I am going to roll some more 12ax7's in it, and when it starts sounding really good, I'll swap the power tubes back to the Ei's and see what difference that makes. Tat will probably have a lot of bearing on whether I keep the 844's in, or if I go back to the 84's.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> *Yes there is a little difference in pin out. 3 & 6 / 1 & 9 Base 9AR vs 9CV. **You'd have to check wiring and for jumpers.*
> 
> Not for the novice.



Well I'm not a tech, but I'm hardly a novice, either. I think I could handle wiring a tube socket. I just don't think it's worth it.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Well I'm not a tech, but I'm hardly a novice, either. I think I could handle wiring a tube socket. I just don't think it's worth it.


 
No, no. I did not mean you. I just meant that in general in case anyone else may be reading in on EL844's.

Sorry, please don't regard me as a smartbutt.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, we're good.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> SC-Are you still running the GOLD speaker in your DSL401? If so, get rid of it. I've had several 401's and they all got a new speaker. I wish they made a 16 ohm Black Powder. I would stick one of those in there. I use a Eminence Red Fang in my 401. I don't like it as much as I used to. Some of that is due to the fact that I have tried a lot of speakers.
> 
> I would like to try a 401 with a Swamp Thang or a Man 'O War. These are more bass heavy and will tame the highs of a 401.




So, Marty, are you saying that the stock speaker is not a good low end speaker and it is contributing to the lack of bottom end in these amps? Could that also be where some of the fuzziness is coming from also?


----------



## sccloser

I think I might do a little p.i. tube rolling in the dsl 401 today...


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> So, Marty, are you saying that the stock speaker is not a good low end speaker and it is contributing to the lack of bottom end in these amps? Could that also be where some of the fuzziness is coming from also?


 
Those Marshall Gold Back speakers look like a special order Seventy-80. Basically a lesser speaker. Read up on the Celestion Seventy-80 thread.


----------



## sccloser

sccloser said:


> I think I might do a little p.i. tube rolling in the dsl 401 today...



Maybe not...that sucker is behind the power tubes, which are hot! Hard to get to. Too lazy to do that today.


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5 said:


> those marshall gold back speakers look like a special order seventy-80. Basically a lesser speaker. Read up on the celestion seventy-80 thread.



10-4.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Anyone ever order from Doug's Tubes?
http://www.dougstubes.com/tad-6l6gc-str.html


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most of the guys on the forum with 201's/401's have replaced the speaker. That Gold Back sounds fancy, but there is nothing fancy about it. It has a terrible frequency response.

I didn't even roll tubes in my 401 until after I had changed the speaker. There are so many great 12's to try, but I settled for a Red Fang ALNICO. A lot of people mix the Red Fang with a Wizard. They both are super efficient. The Red Fang makes that 40 watt amp sound as loud as an 80 watt amp (103dB SPL with 1 watt).


----------



## solarburn

Gtarzan81 said:


> Anyone ever order from Doug's Tubes?
> http://www.dougstubes.com/tad-6l6gc-str.html



A few times. No issues and have had him replace a bad JJ 12AX7 once. Got good CS.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Most of the guys on the forum with 201's/401's have replaced the speaker. That Gold Back sounds fancy, but there is nothing fancy about it. It has a terrible frequency response.
> 
> I didn't even roll tubes in my 401 until after I had changed the speaker. There are so many great 12's to try, but I settled for a Red Fang ALNICO. A lot of people mix the Red Fang with a Wizard. They both are super efficient. The Red Fang makes that 40 watt amp sound as loud as an 80 watt amp (103dB SPL with 1 watt).



Holy shit, a 103 dB speaker? Can you imagine a 100W full stack of them, cranked ?


----------



## Gtarzan81

solarburnDSL50 said:


> A few times. No issues and have had him replace a bad JJ 12AX7 once. Got good CS.


 
Sounds good. The 6100LM now needs new power tubes. One of the quad went south on me over the weekend. I now have a matching triad 

The 6L6GC-STR's have been given high praise by several members here, including Lane and others.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MM54 said:


> Holy shit, a 103 dB speaker? Can you imagine a 100W full stack of them, cranked ?


 
With a 1959slp driving it? Yessir!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a full stack of them would be rated at 112dB. So then it would go as follows:

1W=112dB
2W=115dB
4W=118dB
8W=121dB
16W=124dB
32W=127dB
64W=130dB
100W=131.3dB

Now that's fuckin' loud.


----------



## mickeydg5

Damn that red fang is something.
AlNiCo magnets make for great speakers. Very expensive.

But how do the Fangs compare to Celestion Gold or Jensen Blackbird? Anyone ever had the dough to compare?


----------



## MartyStrat54

For the money, the Celestion Golds are overpriced. They are also a low wattage speaker. The Red Fang is rated at 50WRMS. The Jensen Blackbird seems to be popular in some Fenders and VOX, but again, you have to watch the wattage. Eminence came out with two new ALNICO speakers, the Black Mountain (30W) and the Canis Major (50W).

If you want to know more about them, drop a comment on my Speaker Thread.

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/8492-everything-anything-about-speakers.html


----------



## mickeydg5

Na, Marty. This conversation has been here, unless the others want ot move it.

Your knowledge on Eminence is golden. Cannibus sample sounds good too.

By the way, Celestion Gold is 50 watt and Blue is 15 watt.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm really liking those Legends. I thought when I saw that cabinet that it was going to be a turd, but it's turned out to be a great addition. I'm kicking myself for not doing something with them sooner. I've had them since way back last Spring.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> By the way, Celestion Gold is 50 watt and Blue is 15 watt.



Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I had them bass ackwards.

Either way, they're both high dollar.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I'm really liking those Legends. I thought when I saw that cabinet that it was going to be a turd, but it's turned out to be a great addition. I'm kicking myself for not doing something with them sooner. I've had them since way back last Spring.


 

I think I may know how to identify which Legend design you may have.

Describe the cone, the woofer and measure the diameter of the coil. If you cannot see the coil through the dust cap than get a measurement looking at the cone to spider interface. Pictures too if possible.


----------



## brp

My RFT EL84's came in the mail today from tubemonger. They weren't broken so that's a great start!
I won't have time to put them in until Sunday. I'm going to do a couple test recordings of the stock tubes first to A/B them with the NOS RFT.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I think I may know how to identify which Legend design you may have.
> 
> Describe the cone, the woofer and measure the diameter of the coil. If you cannot see the coil through the dust cap than get a measurement looking at the cone to spider interface. Pictures too if possible.



I'll have to pull one out of the cab to do that. It may be a few days.

They do look pretty much exactly like the pictures I've seen of the 1258's.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I'll have to pull one out of the cab to do that. It may be a few days.
> 
> They do look pretty much exactly like the pictures I've seen of the 1258's.


 
smooth cone, large dust cap, 1.5" coil; yes that is a 1258


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> smooth cone, large dust cap, 1.5" coil; yes that is a 1258



Except 16 ohms. Would that be a 12516?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Except 16 ohms. Would that be a 12516?


 

Bah, ha, ha. Yes that would be 125-16.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a full stack of them would be rated at 112dB. So then it would go as follows:
> 
> 1W=112dB
> 2W=115dB
> 4W=118dB
> 8W=121dB
> 16W=124dB
> 32W=127dB
> 64W=130dB
> 100W=131.3dB
> 
> Now that's fuckin' loud.



And if I did the math right, the 175W that a cranked Marshall can put out would be... 133.55dB


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> My RFT EL84's came in the mail today from tubemonger. They weren't broken so that's a great start!
> I won't have time to put them in until Sunday. I'm going to do a couple test recordings of the stock tubes first to A/B them with the NOS RFT.



Look forward to hearing what you think. Did they send them to you in their Tupperware like container?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, those Sittard, Holland EL84's are headed your way. Let me know how they sound. I wish I had a 2xEL84 amp to try a pair in. The little AC4 sounds a little less edgy with one of those EL84's, but it's hard to make a good comparison with a 6.5" speaker. I need to hook it up to my 425A and see how it sounds with greenbacks, or I could disconnect one of the Legends in my 2x12 and run it through that. Gotta have 16 ohms, no other choice. I kinda dig little low watt EL84 amps. If you know what to expect out of one and how to dial it in, it can be a monster. It's the smallest combo amp I've ever owned, and it's all-tube (except the rectifier - I don't count that).


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Look forward to hearing what you think. Did they send them to you in their Tupperware like container?




Heheh yes! When I first saw they shipped in an envelope instead of a box, I was all WTF!? Then I opened the envelope and pulled out the little rigid "Tupperware" box and said "NICE!"

I'll be putting them in tomorrow, busy all day today with my son's hockey team stuff, when I get home it will be too late to really give them a good test run.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Heheh yes! When I first saw they shipped in an envelope instead of a box, I was all WTF!? Then I opened the envelope and pulled out the little rigid "Tupperware" box and said "NICE!"
> 
> I'll be putting them in tomorrow, busy all day today with my son's hockey team stuff, when I get home it will be too late to really give them a good test run.





I wanna see this tupperware tube container.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I still like the Northern Electric metal box with the form fitting foam sleeve.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I wanna see this tupperware tube container.




Alright, nothing TOO exciting but since you asked, here's how they shipped:

Bubble wrap lined envelope


----------



## thrawn86

Super smart, safe, cheap and light way to do it. I like.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was expecting something molded to fit the tubes into. That looks like those containers that lunch meat comes in.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I was expecting something molded to fit the tubes into. That looks like those containers that lunch meat comes in.



heheh, I thought that might be what you were thinking and why you wanted pics. Nope, just a plastic box, but rigid enough to not get crushed, at least not without something very heavy being thrown on top.

They shipped from San Fran. but the return addy is in Texas. Kinda weird but since they work out of both states, I guess they wanted any undeliverables or returns to go to the guy in Tx.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, those Sittard, Holland EL84's are headed your way. Let me know how they sound. I wish I had a 2xEL84 amp to try a pair in. The little AC4 sounds a little less edgy with one of those EL84's, but it's hard to make a good comparison with a 6.5" speaker. I need to hook it up to my 425A and see how it sounds with greenbacks, or I could disconnect one of the Legends in my 2x12 and run it through that. Gotta have 16 ohms, no other choice. I kinda dig little low watt EL84 amps. If you know what to expect out of one and how to dial it in, it can be a monster. It's the smallest combo amp I've ever owned, and it's all-tube (except the rectifier - I don't count that).



Right on. Be interesting to see/hear how they compare to the RFT's.

New avatar looks killer.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> heheh, I thought that might be what you were thinking and why you wanted pics. Nope, just a plastic box, but rigid enough to not get crushed, at least not without something very heavy being thrown on top.
> 
> They shipped from San Fran. but the return addy is in Texas. Kinda weird but since they work out of both states, I guess they wanted any undeliverables or returns to go to the guy in Tx.



Mine always had blue lids so I had a few of these things and my daughters would take them to put stuff into. Came in handy around my house hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Mine always had blue lids so I had a few of these things and my daughters would take them to put stuff into. Came in handy around my house hehe.



I use those containers for loose or scavenged parts, like capacitors, pots, resistors, etc.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I use them to put leftovers in the fridge.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Right on. Be interesting to see/hear how they compare to the RFT's.
> 
> New avatar looks killer.



Thanks, man. I watched The Grateful Dead Movie recently and I kinda like Uncle Sam in the animated part.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VghN7bIDNw4]Grateful dead the movie - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## thrawn86

Holy crap, that video just made me high.


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't done a hit of acid in 25 years, but watching that video brings back some great memories.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> I use them to put leftovers in the fridge.



I think I'm going to use it to take cake to work 
Cake makes work more better.


----------



## brp

each perforated square, yes aka a tab.


----------



## thrawn86

See, IDK my terminology.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I used to go by this general rule. 

Start out with two tabs.

Just when you think you are flipping out, take two more.


----------



## 61rocker

I've been there....and back....and there....and back...and #9...#9....#9....#9....


----------



## Gtarzan81

Did it once about 10 years ago now. It was indeed a trip.


----------



## RiverRatt

I quit doing it because I couldn't handle the day after. There's nothing more bleak and depressing than the aftermath of an apocalyptic acid trip.


----------



## solarburn

Last time I had acid was about 83'. There is no way I could handle trip'n now. I worry too much about stuff. I didn't back then. Less baggage adds up to a better trip although anything can happen during hehe. Remember drink'n on it...? The beers went down like water...

Went to the fair and rode some rides while trip'n. The body rushes were orgasmic.


----------



## brp

Ya, I gave it up in the late 80's after one too many bad trips and the same reason Ratt mentioned. Shit is a young man's game for sure.

And good for you Thrawn, you'll likely keep your wits longer than any of us because of it.


----------



## sccloser

I never messed with any of that stuff either. All I ever did was drink, heavily, when I was in the Navy, but that was part of the job description at the time...


----------



## thrawn86

brp said:


> Ya, I gave it up in the late 80's after one too many bad trips and the same reason Ratt mentioned. Shit is a young man's game for sure.
> 
> And good for you Thrawn, you'll likely keep your wits longer than any of us because of it.



I don't want anyone to feel like it's a brag of any sort. I saw plenty of people, friends and family alike who partook in all sorts of mayhem. I didn't get into it personally because of my addictive personality....and drugs, I knew by observation, would addict me in return. I felt that if I started, I'd never stop until I was deceased.


----------



## brp

Very wise. I stayed away from certain things (and still do) for the same reasoning.


----------



## brp

Just installed and tested the RFT EL84's.

First impressions:
(Amp- Vox Night Train. Speaker- Celestion G12H 70th Anniv. S.E. in Egnater 1x12 semi-open back. Guitar- '98 Gibson LP Studio, Burstbucker Pro bridge, 490r neck, although I did very minimal playing with the neck, so this is really only related to the Burstbucker)

I wasn't expecting a big dramatic change, as advised not to do so.
I WAS expecting a less bright, less harsh, less fizzy tone with more perceived clarity and a rounder tone as advised by Joe/Solar.
And that's exactly what I got!

I'm used to having the treble set at 0 on the amp and the guitar tone knob rolled back to at least half (orange drop 0.22 cap BTW). I actually turned up the treble after a few minutes with the RFT because the tone wasn't bright enough! Not up a whole lot mind you, but with this amp, that's saying something. The burstbucker pro is also known for it's brightness. I'll give it another go with a stock 498t later today.

The amp also seems to have a more dynamic response to pick attack.
It also seems more "middy" which I could be just perceiving that way due to less fizziness and brightness. It's absolutely less "harsh" and "mushy" sounding.

All of this was noticed when plugged straight in to the amp but when I added my OFA modded SD-1 and vintage Boss GE-10 EQ these same perceptions were intensified. Again, I noticed I had to adjust my standard EQ curve, replacing some of the 2-4k I steeply cut with the stock Sovtek EL84 as well as roll off a bit of the 500hz boost I had going with them.

I was really consciously trying to be objective about what I was hearing and not be glamourizing the tone or tell myself I was hearing what I expected to justify my purchase, because to be honest, I'm planning to buy a couple hundred in NOS 12ax7's and would rather not spend that cash foolishly.

-Do these perceptions sound as you would expect regarding the switch from CP Sovtek to NOS RFT?

-One of the tubes has a brighter, more pronounced glow than the other but this is normal as I understand it, yes?


Overall, this being my first ever personal NOS valve experience, I'm quite impressed by the tonal improvements. The more I played the more I noticed the same improvements, (as I went through riffs I'm familiar with the tone of through the Sovteks)
I should note that I haven't really opened it up, only ever had it up to 4 on the master in pentode mode.

I'm even more excited now to get some NOS pre tubes as I know this is where more dramatic improvements can be had. With the Sovtek 12ax7's still in there, I'm sure there's much more improvement to be had.

Joe was spot-on about these RFT and I'm very grateful for his insights about them with this amp. Thanks Joe!

Gonna experiment with some other guitars/pickups, comments welcome...


----------



## RiverRatt

Great review. You're doing it backwards from what I did. I got the preamp sorted out before I went for NOS power tubes, but then EL84's are a little cheaper than EL34's. You are going to notice a lot more of a difference with the preamp tubes than with the power tubes. With the budget you mentioned, you should be able to get some killer glass for the front end.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Just installed and tested the RFT EL84's.
> 
> First impressions:
> (Amp- Vox Night Train. Speaker- Celestion G12H 70th Anniv. S.E. in Egnater 1x12 semi-open back. Guitar- '98 Gibson LP Studio, Burstbucker Pro bridge, 490r neck, although I did very minimal playing with the neck, so this is really only related to the Burstbucker)
> 
> I wasn't expecting a big dramatic change, as advised not to do so.
> I WAS expecting a less bright, less harsh, less fizzy tone with more perceived clarity and a rounder tone as advised by Joe/Solar.
> And that's exactly what I got!
> 
> I'm used to having the treble set at 0 on the amp and the guitar tone knob rolled back to at least half (orange drop 0.22 cap BTW). I actually turned up the treble after a few minutes with the RFT because the tone wasn't bright enough! Not up a whole lot mind you, but with this amp, that's saying something. The burstbucker pro is also known for it's brightness. I'll give it another go with a stock 498t later today.
> 
> The amp also seems to have a more dynamic response to pick attack.
> It also seems more "middy" which I could be just perceiving that way due to less fizziness and brightness. It's absolutely less "harsh" and "mushy" sounding.
> 
> All of this was noticed when plugged straight in to the amp but when I added my OFA modded SD-1 and vintage Boss GE-10 EQ these same perceptions were intensified. Again, I noticed I had to adjust my standard EQ curve, replacing some of the 2-4k I steeply cut with the stock Sovtek EL84 as well as roll off a bit of the 500hz boost I had going with them.
> 
> I was really consciously trying to be objective about what I was hearing and not be glamourizing the tone or tell myself I was hearing what I expected to justify my purchase, because to be honest, I'm planning to buy a couple hundred in NOS 12ax7's and would rather not spend that cash foolishly.
> 
> -Do these perceptions sound as you would expect regarding the switch from CP Sovtek to NOS RFT?
> 
> -One of the tubes has a brighter, more pronounced glow than the other but this is normal as I understand it, yes?
> 
> 
> Overall, this being my first ever personal NOS valve experience, I'm quite impressed by the tonal improvements. The more I played the more I noticed the same improvements, (as I went through riffs I'm familiar with the tone of through the Sovteks)
> I should note that I haven't really opened it up, only ever had it up to 4 on the master in pentode mode.
> 
> I'm even more excited now to get some NOS pre tubes as I know this is where more dramatic improvements can be had. With the Sovtek 12ax7's still in there, I'm sure there's much more improvement to be had.
> 
> Joe was spot-on about these RFT and I'm very grateful for his insights about them with this amp. Thanks Joe!
> 
> Gonna experiment with some other guitars/pickups, comments welcome...



Open that amp up with some volume and it will get better. Glad to hear you got positive results. To my ears they are a smoother yet defined tube meaning you don't lose so much in the top end that it becomes dull. I thought the mids got richer. 

I really love the saturation from them and boosting sounds awesome. Warm and smokey hehe. They make a significant change on the bright voicing. The Sovtecs just add to the high end of the amp and make it sterile or un-dynamic to boot. A horrible mating of tubes for the NT IMO.

I like playing in triode mode(7.5watts)with the volume about 2 to 2:30pm. Pentode(15watts)is just icing on the cake.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Just installed and tested the RFT EL84's.
> 
> First impressions:
> (Amp- Vox Night Train. Speaker- Celestion G12H 70th Anniv. S.E. in Egnater 1x12 semi-open back. Guitar- '98 Gibson LP Studio, Burstbucker Pro bridge, 490r neck, although I did very minimal playing with the neck, so this is really only related to the Burstbucker)
> 
> I wasn't expecting a big dramatic change, as advised not to do so.
> I WAS expecting a less bright, less harsh, less fizzy tone with more perceived clarity and a rounder tone as advised by Joe/Solar.
> And that's exactly what I got!
> 
> I'm used to having the treble set at 0 on the amp and the guitar tone knob rolled back to at least half (orange drop 0.22 cap BTW). I actually turned up the treble after a few minutes with the RFT because the tone wasn't bright enough! Not up a whole lot mind you, but with this amp, that's saying something. The burstbucker pro is also known for it's brightness. I'll give it another go with a stock 498t later today.
> 
> The amp also seems to have a more dynamic response to pick attack.
> It also seems more "middy" which I could be just perceiving that way due to less fizziness and brightness. It's absolutely less "harsh" and "mushy" sounding.
> 
> All of this was noticed when plugged straight in to the amp but when I added my OFA modded SD-1 and vintage Boss GE-10 EQ these same perceptions were intensified. Again, I noticed I had to adjust my standard EQ curve, replacing some of the 2-4k I steeply cut with the stock Sovtek EL84 as well as roll off a bit of the 500hz boost I had going with them.
> 
> I was really consciously trying to be objective about what I was hearing and not be glamourizing the tone or tell myself I was hearing what I expected to justify my purchase, because to be honest, I'm planning to buy a couple hundred in NOS 12ax7's and would rather not spend that cash foolishly.
> 
> -Do these perceptions sound as you would expect regarding the switch from CP Sovtek to NOS RFT?
> 
> -One of the tubes has a brighter, more pronounced glow than the other but this is normal as I understand it, yes?
> 
> 
> Overall, this being my first ever personal NOS valve experience, I'm quite impressed by the tonal improvements. The more I played the more I noticed the same improvements, (as I went through riffs I'm familiar with the tone of through the Sovteks)
> I should note that I haven't really opened it up, only ever had it up to 4 on the master in pentode mode.
> 
> I'm even more excited now to get some NOS pre tubes as I know this is where more dramatic improvements can be had. With the Sovtek 12ax7's still in there, I'm sure there's much more improvement to be had.
> 
> Joe was spot-on about these RFT and I'm very grateful for his insights about them with this amp. Thanks Joe!
> 
> Gonna experiment with some other guitars/pickups, comments welcome...



Yes for the changes and yes its ok if one burns brighter as long as its the filament and not the plates red plating. Mine do the same thing.


----------



## Gtarzan81

I've just ordered the T.A.D. 6L6GC-STR's for the 6100.
Now for the fun part..getting them biased.


----------



## Neylus

Can I put 2 JJ EL34 and 2 GrooveTubes EL34 in my 2203 head ?
And can I leave only 2 tubes to have a 50w amp just for one gig ?


----------



## Neylus

So ???


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes and Yes, provided that (A) the JJ's and the GT's match and (B) that you change the impedance setting on your amp to half what your cab is rated at. You have to pull either the two inside or the two outside tubes. Don't expect it to sound much different, though.


----------



## Neylus

I have my cab set to 16 Ohms MONO and my head to 16 Ohms when 4 tubes. If I remove 2 Tubes, how do I have to set the cab and the head ?


----------



## Neylus

... ? Sorry I don't know many things about impedance settings...


----------



## Neylus

OK I've found the impedances.
Can I put 2 JJ EL34's and 2 Groovetubes EL34 in the same amp ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt answered this already. You can only run them if they all match and that probably ain't gonna happen. If you put them in your amp, they probably won't bias right and you could get a red plate situation. If you are in a bind, go with the two tubes and make sure they are biased correctly and set your impedance to half of what the cab is rated at.


----------



## Neylus

What's a "red plate"


----------



## solarburn

Neylus said:


> What's a "red plate"



The plates in the tube will turn red or glow red. You don't want this happening.


----------



## RiverRatt

Borrowed from tube-town.net. Notice the way the plate (the tall vertical parts) on one of the tubes is glowing a dull red:


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Very wise. I stayed away from certain things (and still do) for the same reasoning.



It wasn't so much staying away from certain things for me as it was staying away from certain friends. One of my bandmates, who has a college degree, ended up working for the city sweeping the sidewalks. One of the last times I talked to him I was giving him some grief about how out of control he was (cocaine). He denied it, then turned around and asked me if I would do any with him if he had some. He pulled out about an 8-ball and I left. If it wasn't coke, it was pills. If not pills, it was alcohol. Sometimes it was all three. 

I'm like Thrawn - if I get started with the Dr. Feelgood stuff I usually ride that horse into the ground. I just don't put myself in contact with those people any more. Some of them were good friends at the time, but I just can't be around them or I'll be sitting up at 2 a.m., broke, and wondering where I can get more money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some of my old friends get quite stiff when they hear my name. My name reminds them of a time in their lives where they took a gamble everyday they were around me. Some don't want to see me and others are very "cool" in their reception of me. 

On the other hand, there are those who got hooked on some substance and they are still doing it. I lost a very good friend to a heart attack that was brought on by years of doing speed (crystal meth especially).

I'm very mellow nowadays. I will smoke one with you, but I won't do lines anymore and I am a very light drinker. Hell, I got my retirement years to look forward to.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

OK here it comes ....sorta noobish question......

My pal picked up a JCM600 head & cab for dirt cheap !!
He asked me to help him retube it etc etc ...

What power tubes does a guy go with in one of those things ?????


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why I like you TUBES. You came here for advice instead of starting a new thread. Good for you. That amp is identical circuit wise to a JTM60. It uses (2) EL34's and (4) ECC83's. It is a two channel amp. Sort of like a 60 watt DSL. 

If it were mine, I would go with either the EH6CA7, Groove Tube EL34M, or JJE34L. Those are all good choices, but I am partial to the 6CA7's.

I would go with a JJ ECC803 or a Preferred Series 7025 in V1. Then a high gain Tung-Sol in V2. JJECC83 in V3 and an EH12AX7 in V4

Your gain stages are V1A/B, V2A/B and V3B.

That's my thoughts.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok, I have to ask. Are the current EL34 winged C's still good?


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's why I like you TUBES. You came here for advice instead of starting a new thread. Good for you. That amp is identical circuit wise to a JTM60. It uses (2) EL34's and (4) ECC83's. It is a two channel amp. Sort of like a 60 watt DSL.
> 
> If it were mine, I would go with either the EH6CA7, Groove Tube EL34M, or JJE34L. Those are all good choices, but I am partial to the 6CA7's.
> 
> I would go with a JJ ECC803 or a Preferred Series 7025 in V1. Then a high gain Tung-Sol in V2. JJECC83 in V3 and an EH12AX7 in V4
> 
> Your gain stages are V1A/B, V2A/B and V3B.
> 
> That's my thoughts.





Awesome !! Thanks Marty !!! 
FWIW .....I was going to say =w= c's or Mullards !! ha !


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I think there are a lot of power tubes that sound really good without breaking the bank. The price on the Winged =C='s are getting stupid.

The other thing is I think you get a tighter low end with the 6CA7's. Next would be the JJE34L and then the EL34M has a little less bottom end. The JJ has more raw crunch. Wilder used JJ's in all of his amps and he got a pretty good tone. I think the GT EL34M is closer to a Mullard RI than the New Sensor Mullard. To me, the Mullard EL34 is made like an EH and probably shares some common parts. You never know what they do over in Russia.

Also, if your friend evaluates his amp and decides its too bright, then he will have to go the JJ ECC83 in V1. The other choice is a NOS RFT 12AX7. 

Additionally, I will say I am a little concerned about JJ's recent quality control issues. I hope it was just a little glitch, but I am keeping my feelers out. I like that JJ 803. If you get a good one, they will last.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Ok, I have to ask. Are the current EL34 winged C's still good?



They are still the best "overall" tube, but they are getting costly. Why? I'm sure it has to do with supply and demand. As in my other post, I have gotten great service out of the EH6CA7. This tube has got great low mids. Palm mutes are nice and chunky. Overall tone of this tube is pretty sweet. I like how chime and harmonics sound with this tube.

The Winged C's are smooth in the bottom and I like my tone to be chunkier. I think the 6CA7's project more when in a band mix. Rhythm parts are more pronounced. I run these in the TSL and the JMP 2203. Two completely different amps, but the EH's do well in both.

I can't say anything negative about the Winged C's except the price. If you like a smoother tone, they are the way to go. I like a chunkier tone.


----------



## solarburn

Alan I just checked the mail and got the Sittard EL84's you sent. I've got a 3 day weekend this week so its perfect timing to test them out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Great! Let me know how they work out.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are still the best "overall" tube, but they are getting costly.


 
I guess I have been out of it. Now I see why no one is talking about them much. $70-$80 a pair. Oh well.

Those EH6ca7 look like the big bottle, nice. Eljeffe was raving about the JJ6ca7 I believe. Any idea how the two compare?


----------



## MM54

I've used the EH6CA7 and can attest to their asskickingness


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Great! Let me know how they work out.



Ok bud...these are nice and alot like my RFT's. Warm, fat and dynamic. I'll do some more back and forth cause my Strat is with my guitar guy getting a new nut put on it. I'm using a SC only fiddle(my daughters)and I have to get use to it's dynamics and tone. I'll have to go back and forth more between both sets of 84's. Really like what I'm hearing/feeling from these Sittard EL84's.

Pretty sure you'd like the RFT 84's since you like these. I may have to send you a pair to try out if I can stand to be without them hehe. I'll keep you posted...


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't worry about it just now. I don't have anything except that little Vox AC4TV to use them in. Wait until I get some Yellow Jackets for the Tweaker. No rush on the Sittard tubes - just keep them until you get your Strat back and can give them a good workout.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Don't worry about it just now. I don't have anything except that little Vox AC4TV to use them in. Wait until I get some Yellow Jackets for the Tweaker. No rush on the Sittard tubes - just keep them until you get your Strat back and can give them a good workout.



I've gone back and forth quite a bit with them now. Fuck EL84's are hot. Burn right through my socky! Worth it though to get the least amount of time in between them so I can keep my audio compass accurate as I can. I like my RFT's a hair better and I think the RFT's are a bit stronger than the Sittard's. You said they tested at 80%...? Still they are better than anything else(CP)I have used in the NT. Very like the RFT's and these warm the NT up too.

I'll hold on to them and run them thru again with the Strat when I get it back for the HSS pups it has. Is a couple of weeks ok? We are waiting for the nut to arrive and then he's gonna slap it in? The guitar is already at his house.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's cool. They did test at 80 I believe, but they were a strong 100% on the life test. They are solid tubes, but they will probably tend to be a little mellow compared to stronger NOS. I got those and that 1958 Mullard from a guy who wanted a couple of pairs of 5881's. He thought he came out good, and I thought I came out good. I'd like to have seen the machine he robbed all this glass out of. He said it was an old Motorola hi-fi or something, maybe a console. A long-plate Mullard and four Holland EL84's is a good haul. He kept wanting me to take a set of four 10" Jensen guitar speakers but I didn't know what I'd do with them at the time. I realize now that I should have taken them off his hands. I think they were C10-Q's still in the box.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that's cool.



Thanks Alan. The NT's sounding good!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Friends helping friends.


----------



## solarburn

Check the lyrics out.LOL!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xJWxPE8G2c][NOT MINE] Woodstock: Joe Cocker - With A Little Help From My Friends - Misheard Lyrics - YouTube[/ame]

I mean no disrespect to Joe Cocker who is fucking awesome in this vid. I just think this is relate-able cause we all have screwed up song lyrics and sang them wrong for years even...


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Wait until I get some Yellow Jackets for the Tweaker...


Hm... I might have to give that a try. I have a pair collecting dust right now...


----------



## brp

Help!
Guys, I need some advice!
Remember I said 1 of my 2 RFT EL84's I just got was brighter than the other?

I just went to play the amp and the one that was brighter is not glowing AT ALL now, and the other one is definitely red plating. Although the amp seemed to sound fine. But as soon as I noticed the red plating, I shut it off and when I did I seemed to notice a small bit of smoke.

No glow at all in the one tube. What should I do?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Swap the tubes around and see if the problem moves with the swap. Just keep the amp on long enough to test.

If the bad tube remains dead, you got a bad tube.


----------



## brp

thank you. Will do... brb...


----------



## solarburn

If you have a bad tube then get a hold Tubemonger. They will make good on it. If they ask your amp is cathode biased. You don't adjust the bias on it.


----------



## brp

Yep, swapped the tubes in the slots and the same one is not glowing when in the other slot 


What's the likelihood that the amp could be damaged by having it on with one (out of 2 total) dead power tube for... it was about 2 minutes I'm guessing?

What are the possibilities for what the small amount of smoke I think I saw was caused by?

And should the amp have sounded different? I swear the tube was still getting hot, is that normal?


----------



## RiverRatt

It could have been the board getting too hot. You probably at least need to eyeball it and make sure there aren't any burned traces before you power up with new tubes.


----------



## johnfv

*Tweaker and 6P3S*

I finally got around to doing a clip as I promised:
http://www.marshallforum.com/cellar/35102-russia-love.html#post499740


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> It could have been the board getting too hot. You probably at least need to eyeball it and make sure there aren't any burned traces before you power up with new tubes.




Ok, I've done this, from the front side of the board and it looks mint, no sign of burning, discoloration, damaged caps or anything else, traces look great, and I especially checked around the tube sockets. I'd need to remove the board to see the other side. Should I or would any issue by visible from the front side? (side the components are on)

I'm going to put the stock tubes in and see how she runs...


----------



## brp

Also, I know the smell of fried components very well and I don't perceive any in the amp...

I saw the smoke in the area of the tube that was red plating. Could have been dust or the label smoking or something?


----------



## MM54

Could have been the label burning off the tube, I've seen it happen with some tubes running within specs even.


----------



## brp

Well, the amp seems to work ok, other than it sounds like the Sovteks again.

Man, going back to them after hearing the RFT is quite a difference 

Ya thanks, MM. I didn't see any signs of it on the tubes but since the labels are partially rubbed off anyway, it's hard to say.


----------



## brp

Going to email Tubemonger and see what they say. They talk about a "quality guarantee" on their site but no specifics really, other than
"Tubes will be replaced ONLY for electrical faults. Please, no tube rolling at our expense."


Anyone ever had a problem with stuff from them or had to exercise that guarantee?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry to hear that one of your NOS tubes took a dump. I hope you get it all worked out.


----------



## brp

Thanks. I hope so too. Bad first timers luck huh?

Well, I suppose this type of thing can happen with a tube that hasn't been used and has sat for 40 something years, am I right?
I mean, how rare is this when buying a tube that has been tested, for it to fail right away once actually put into use?
Any input on this guys, as NOW I'm very interested in this subject.

Also, is that the norm, that the other tube red plates when one fails? Pardon my noobness, just trying to learn here....


----------



## sccloser

Well, it was tested _before_ it was shipped. Sometimes, tests are not performed with the tubes at full plate voltages that they experience in actual use. And sometimes the defect is undetected until you plug it up.


----------



## brp

Thanks.
I should add that they claim all tubes are tested but I of course have no way of knowing if mine were. I'd imagine they test them when they get them in and weed out the bad ones. But that could have been years ago and it may never have been retested before going out the door to me.
I can say that they shipped extremely fast after I placed the order. I received a "your order has shipped" notice email within a few hours of placing the order...


----------



## MartyStrat54

It is common in a push-pull amp for one of the tubes to red plate after the other one takes a dump. It throws the bias off on the good tube.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Going to email Tubemonger and see what they say. They talk about a "quality guarantee" on their site but no specifics really, other than
> "Tubes will be replaced ONLY for electrical faults. Please, no tube rolling at our expense."
> 
> 
> Anyone ever had a problem with stuff from them or had to exercise that guarantee?



The "tube rolling at our expense" means no buying tubes and then replacing them cause you didn't like them.

Yours failed. They will take care of you. Get a hold of them.


----------



## Clammy

Gonna re-tube the VBA 400. She sports 8 6550s. I'm pretty sure the SEDs (which are labelled "Svetlana") in there now are the originals, so they'd be about 12 years old, and this amp has definitely been gigged. Anyway, New SEDs are stupid expensive, and I've read a lot of great reviews of the current production Tung-Sol reissues. Their price is reasonable (about 1/3 less than the SEDs, but when buying 8, still not cheap by any means!), so I ordered a matched octet from the tubestore.com, and they arrived today. They're rugged looking, triple getter, and have good weight to them. I'm looking forward to hearing them in the amp! 






Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ROB-That amp should wail with a new set of those. I haven't heard anything bad about the Tung-Sol's. I've probably have installed them in around eight amps in the past two years. They were easy to bias. Of course, I've never had to bias an amp with eight of them. Wow! Please give us a full review when you get the amp running.


----------



## Clammy

MartyStrat54 said:


> ROB-That amp should wail with a new set of those. I haven't heard anything bad about the Tung-Sol's. I've probably have installed them in around eight amps in the past two years. They were easy to bias. Of course, I've never had to bias an amp with eight of them. Wow! Please give us a full review when you get the amp running.



You got it man. 

Speaking of biasing... I'm perfectly comfortable and familiar with biasing vintage NMV Marshalls, but this VBA is a different animal. From the limited amount of info I've been able to find online, apparently, each quad is biased, and then they're "blended". I don't even know where the pots are!  So, I'm gonna find a local tech who's up on current Marshalls and let them do it for me.

Cheers!


----------



## brp

I just received a reply from tubemonger.

_" Sorry to hear that. If you can return the tubes, we can offer a full refund. We can’t replace the tubes since we are not quite sure if your amp is working strictly within the specs. VOX is known for such issues. "
Please mail the tubes back to the following address (regular first class mail/no signature/no insurance):
_

Damn, I was loving those. 
But at least they're looking after me (albeit at my return shipping expense of course.)


I was getting excited. I suppose I'll get some NOS pre tubes while I look into what to do about this power tube situation.

Any suggestions on how to retry getting some NOS power tubes going again? Or perhaps recommend something CP that would be a step up from the Sovtek if you think that's a safer way to go for now? Since I clearly can't order more from these guys and expect them to refund me if one dies again...


----------



## MartyStrat54

"VOX is known for such issues." What the hell? Maybe an AC30 cranked full blast. Yeah they can burn up a set of tubes, but not your amp. 

Why didn't they just say, "We're sorry that one of our old tubes failed in your amp."

I wonder if it had a small crack in the base?


----------



## brp

I'll have a much closer look with a magnifying glass, but there isn't anything visible to the naked eye going on there...


----------



## brp

Oh shit, scratch that, I notice what seems to be a very small crack in the base.... will try to get a pic but I may not be able to...


----------



## brp

Between the top 2 pins and also less so between the one to the left of them





It shows up pretty good in the close-up macro pic but it's not near that easy to see just looking at the tube.

Hey Joe, I guess they do crack pretty easy sometimes 
I tried to be extremely delicate when installing them but it's not like they just slid right in, I tried to finesse them in but there was definitely a bit of pressure required to get them in while finessing. The CP Sovteks slid in much easier by comparison.

You think my refund just went up in smoke?

I dunno, seems like these are too delicate for me to be messing with at 40 bucks a pop but I'd like to get another one.

They have to be "matched" right, so I can't just get another one to use with my still good one?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Between the top 2 pins and also less so between the one to the left of them
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It shows up pretty good in the close-up macro pic but it's not near that easy to see just looking at the tube.
> 
> Hey Joe, I guess they do crack pretty easy sometimes
> I tried to be extremely delicate when installing them but it's not like they just slid right in, I tried to finesse them in but there was definitely a bit of pressure required to get them in while finessing. The CP Sovteks slid in much easier by comparison.
> 
> You think my refund just went up in smoke?
> 
> I dunno, seems like these are too delicate for me to be messing with at 40 bucks a pop but I'd like to get another one.
> 
> They have to be "matched" right, so I can't just get another one to use with my still good one?



Yeah that sure is a crack..."Hamfist"!LOL

Man I have been plugging mine in and out for along time now. The only way to know if you didn't cause it was to have first checked them out. Who knows it may have been cracked already before you got it. That will be a lesson for me on these is if I get me another pair I'm checking them out thoroughly. These EL84's sound so good in the NT its hard to just go another route. You could just duct tape it... Put some glue on it...just kidding.

I would tell them that your Vox is Cathode biased and not like other models like the AC series that are very hard on tubes. You can give them my name if you want as to using these for a couple of years in 2 Cathode biased amps with no issues. I have bought from them several times and they have me in their records(PM me if you need it). Oh and I crank that amp most of the time its played. I just leave the volume at 2:30pm and play so mine have got a workout to say the least.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Any suggestions on how to retry getting some NOS power tubes going again? Or perhaps recommend something CP that would be a step up from the Sovtek if you think that's a safer way to go for now? Since I clearly can't order more from these guys and expect them to refund me if one dies again...



TAD's no. They emphasize the fizz and take a shit quicker than any tubes I've had. I got 2 free pair(quad)from Dr Z when they did a repair on my amp. One pair went under 30 minutes of playing. The other pair lasted just a few hours. I didn't like their tone in the NT or Monza. I've read several reviews from players that said the same thing about their durability.

JJ's are decent tone wise. Never had any issues with the EL84's. Their new offering El844 may smooth the NT out where you want it. I haven't tried them yet. Here is the Tube Stores review:

From our review: "The EL844 does exactly what the manufacturer claims. You get all the tone of an EL84 with less volume overall. The difference doesn’t end there. Because the tube has less power to give, you end up with very nice distortion at lower volumes. I ran the Pro Jr. up to a point just at the start of audible breakup. With EL84’s, the Fender Pro Jr. was loud and punchy. Switch to the EL844’s and cool stuff starts to happen. At the same settings the distortion was now very nice. The EL844 adds a bit of compression so the distortion was smoother and more focused. These tubes have excellent response to pick attack. With a lighter touch you can get sparkling shimmer, dig in with the pick and you can push the tubeThis characteristic is one of the highlights of the tube. I’ve used many amps with a low power switch and even on my own designs I don’t find it really useful or toneful. The JJ EL844 accomplishes the task very nicely. You can now get your AC30 to deliver the tone you want at a volume you can live with. And don’t be mistaken. Any situation that your EL84 equipped amp could tackle should be no problem for the EL844 equipped amp. What you gain is a very sweet overdriven tone that you can control from your guitar and a natural compression that firms up the tone as you dig deeper into overdriven sounds into overdrive." 

http://thetubestore.com/el84review.html#review

Never tried the Mullard RI's but they are a tube which breaks up early. From their description they may come the closest to the RFT's. I would try them out if I were going to use a CP tube again...which I'm sure I will.

Haven't tried the EH84's either. Don't know how they sound at all.

The preferred series 7189's are nice but expensive. I much preferred the RFT's after spending time with both. They will give your amp more headroom. Mine was noticeably louder. I don't think it needs to be louder though hehe. Just smokier and these provide a cleaner OD to them. Weren't as dynamic with pick attack.


Sovtecs sucked in all my amps. The EL84's are stiff and sterile sounding. Horrible and make you want to have another amp cause you think somethings wrong with yours. The only Sovtec tube I like are their 12AX7 LPS which make a great PI tube.


----------



## johnfv

I have JJ EL84 in my 18W TMB and they sound great to me, nice mid "bark". I have the EH EL84 in my DC30 clone and I like them as well, perhaps a bit warmer than the JJ. For CP tubes I think either would be fine.


----------



## sccloser

I have the jj el844's in my dsl401, and I'd say the Tube Store's review is pretty accurate. I also got a little more low end response.


----------



## brp

Thanks very much for the input on other options, Joe, John & sccloser!

I received another email from Tubemonger. One of their team saw my posts/pic in this thread. They had this to say: 

_"If the tube had a crack, you should have lost vacuum by now, which would deplete the getter. Crack should have opened very quickly when the tube is heated. If that had happened, top of your tube should be totally transparent (see through) or frosty white. 
What you think is a crack is normal random pattern formed when tube bottle is fused with the base part. These patterns can vary even within the same tube batch.
Tubes were tested before shipping. Shipping damage to internals is a remote possibility. " _

I wondered the same thing last night after looking at the pic, i.e. shouldn't it have went white and the crack spread much more dramatically? It's very hard to see, and the rest of the tube looks immaculate, no sign of loss of vacuum.

Anyway, Tubemonger has been very responsive and helpful. I'd recommend them despite getting a bad tube. They have already processed a refund. They said they would send another pair today if that's what I preferred but do not wish to offer a return option on a second pair due to their apparent tripidation about this amp, the replacement offered would not have the option of being returned/replaced so I chose a refund until I decide what to get for the NT's power stage.
I'll have to give some thought to whether I should try some more RFT (which I really want to do) or go another route like one of the recommedations you guys provided. I agree with Joe 100%, "stiff and sterile" is exactly how I'd describe the Sovtek in the NT, especially so after briefly hearing the RFT.

In the meantime, I'm going to get some NOS 12ax7 for the preamps of my amps.

What name are the Mullard RI's EL84 sold under? EH? Anyone else have some input on these?
I can get the JJ's pretty readily so I might give those a go as well until I decide which NOS route to give a try, be it the RFT again or otherwise. I'm going to ask my local shop that sells JJ if they can get in some EL844 for me and I will get some to try out if they can get them fairly soon.
Anything that sounds nicer than the Sovteks at this point, since going back from the NOS RFT gives me a sad.

Also, Hi Tubemonger "team member"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow. We have tube sellers checking out our thread. 

Hello Tubemonger. 

I'm not using any of your pictures anymore,


----------



## mickeydg5

Clammy said:


> You got it man.
> 
> Speaking of biasing... I'm perfectly comfortable and familiar with biasing vintage NMV Marshalls, but this VBA is a different animal. From the limited amount of info I've been able to find online, apparently, each quad is biased, and then they're "blended". I don't even know where the pots are!  So, I'm gonna find a local tech who's up on current Marshalls and let them do it for me.
> 
> Cheers!


 
*Clammy*, if you can bias your other Marshall amps, you can bias your VBA too. It is not that hard to do the bais and check the balance.

If you would like help, let me know.

I don't know what you are going to do with the 8 6550's that you pull. You should test them is possible and see how they compare to as new stuff. It would be neat to know, especially after 12 years.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> What name are the Mullard RI's EL84 sold under? EH? Anyone else have some input on these?



That is the name of the tube.

Mullard EL84

Here are the EH's:

Electro-Harmonix EL84

_The guys at Tubemonger are good people_.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> I have the jj el844's in my dsl401, and I'd say the Tube Store's review is pretty accurate. I also got a little more low end response.



These may really help mellow out the bright fizziness of the NT. The RFT's do.


----------



## sccloser

They seemed to help my fizziness a bit as well, but I did completely re-tube that amp all at once so the pre's could have affected that as well. I used all JJ's in it at the time. I have been rolling NOS pre's in it lately.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> They seemed to help my fizziness a bit as well, but I did completely re-tube that amp all at once so the pre's could have affected that as well. I used all JJ's in it at the time. I have been rolling NOS pre's in it lately.



Yeah the pres will help even more but on this amp the right power tubes have a big impact especially if the stock tubes are Sovtec EL84's. Also gained is dynamics and this was without any pres being changed. So power tubes can have a noticeable effect on tone parameters/EQ.

I should qualify my statements by saying I have this amp and have rolled the shit out of it both pre & power sections already knowing what kind of outcome would be with just a power tube change. Other wise I would have recommended doing the preamp tubes first as well.


----------



## brp

What's the word on the Genalex - Gold Lion EL84 reissue, and why are they twice the price of a JJ or EH EL84?

I read on a seller's site regarding the EH EL84:
"The new EL84EH faithfully recreates the classic Mullard design."
So I was confused that this is the tube ppl were speaking of when referring to the Mullard reissue.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> What's the word on the Genalex - Gold Lion EL84 reissue, and why are they twice the price of a JJ or EH EL84?
> 
> I read on a seller's site regarding the EH EL84:
> "The new EL84EH faithfully recreates the classic Mullard design."
> So I was confused that this is the tube ppl were speaking of when referring to the Mullard reissue.



Yeah I can see where that may be confusing. That's what we're here for. To take away any confusion or inaccuracies even though tone is subjective. The tools to get it have certain traits to judge by though. We are all learning new things here.

I would stay away from the EL84 Gold Lions. Lots of failures. That doesn't go across the board on all GL's but I have seen way too many reports of the 84's failing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gold Lions??? Higher price?

Gold Lions in the NOS days were a premium tube. New Sensor is trying to base their Gold Lion prices on this past glory. I don't think a Gold Lion is made any better than most CP tubes. It's the old, "If we can charge more, let's do it."

And their EL84's don't knock me out tone wise.


----------



## brp

Thanks and thanks, I suspected as much but thought maybe there was some at least somewhat valid reason for it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is "greed" a valid reason?


----------



## MM54

Alan, whenever we work out the box of weirdass tubes thing (hopefully before too much longer, it'd be cool it have them over Christmas break), what do you think about including one of the 6P3S tubes I've heard about? They seem interesting enough


----------



## paul-e-mann

Just thought I'd mention, since I replaced my Groove Tube E34L power tubes with JJ E34L my DSL50 is sounding way better. Dont know why, as far as I'm concerned they're the same tube. Maybe the old were worn out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like a good assumption to me. Old tubes = Crappy sound


----------



## brp

I have my local shop transferring some JJ EL84 from another location so I'll have those to try out, probably Tuesday. Still planning to go NOS but these would always be a good backup and cheap enough to try out for the experience.

Is the JJ EL84 a 7189 type tube? I tried to research this on my own but had no luck so I thought I'd ask here.

I ask because tubemonger emailed again in response to a question I asked them earlier i.e. if they are not comfortable endorsing the RFT in the Vox NT, could they recommend another NOS EL84 for it?

They said I should confirm that a non-7189 type EL84, "A plain/regular EL84" works fine in my amp and that once I have they could suggest some alternatives.

Also for anyone who knows, what other CP EL84 are of the "regular" or non-7189 type?


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Alan, whenever we work out the box of weirdass tubes thing (hopefully before too much longer, it'd be cool it have them over Christmas break), what do you think about including one of the 6P3S tubes I've heard about? They seem interesting enough



Yeah, I'm procrastinating. I took all of them over to the HAM radio dude's house ages ago and haven't been back to pick them up. I'll see what I've got in the 6P3S tubes. I don't think I've got any singles right now, they are all matched pairs or quads.


----------



## brp

^ I don't suppose you have any NOS EL84's you'd care to sell? 
Just checkin'


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I have my local shop transferring some JJ EL84 from another location so I'll have those to try out, probably Tuesday. Still planning to go NOS but these would always be a good backup and cheap enough to try out for the experience.
> 
> Is the JJ EL84 a 7189 type tube? I tried to research this on my own but had no luck so I thought I'd ask here.
> 
> I ask because tubemonger emailed again in response to a question I asked them earlier i.e. if they are not comfortable endorsing the RFT in the Vox NT, could they recommend another NOS EL84 for it?
> 
> They said I should confirm that a non-7189 type EL84, "A plain/regular EL84" works fine in my amp and that once I have they could suggest some alternatives.
> 
> Also for anyone who knows, what other CP EL84 are of the "regular" or non-7189 type?



The JJ EL84 is not a 7189. A "regular" EL84 works in your amp. All those I listed and at the tubestore.com are regular EL84's except the Preferred series which carries the 7189 designation but will also run in your amp.


----------



## Gtarzan81

brp said:


> ^ I don't suppose you have any NOS EL84's you'd care to sell?
> Just checkin'



I have 2 of them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll be selling those Sittard Holland EL84's if Joe doesn't keep them. Check his reviews.


----------



## solarburn

The Sittard's are excellent in the NT. Brp if you like the RFT's and I know you do, you will like the Sittard's as well.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I'll be selling those Sittard Holland EL84's if Joe doesn't keep them. Check his reviews.



Well, you can absolutely PM me a price if he decides he isn't going to, please and thanks, unless you decide you want to auction them, which I'll totally understand.

And thanks, Joe.


I sent the RFT's back today so I didn't get to keep the Tupperware box 
Gotta put my cake in something else I guess.


----------



## brp

By the way, I'd appreciate any links to info on those Sittard Holland EL84 that would serve my curiousity. Ya know, if ya happen to have any....
If not that's fine too, Joe's impressions are good enough for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is about the best source I've found. There's just not a lot of info out there. "Very rare" is about the best clue I've gotten other than that they were made by Philips in Holland.

http://www.tube-classics.de/TC/Tubes/Valvo%20EL84/EL84.htm


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think this will be my next power tube purchase, the Groove Tube GT6CA7GE. These are supposed to be copies of the GE 6CA7. They have the beam forming element in their design. The EH 6CA7 does not have a beam forming element and therefore is not a "true" 6CA7. I'll have to do a little research on the JJ's to see what their design is.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think this will be my next power tube purchase, the Groove Tube GT6CA7GE. These are supposed to be copies of the GE 6CA7. They have the beam forming element in their design. The EH 6CA7 does not have a beam forming element and therefore is not a "true" 6CA7. I'll have to do a little research on the JJ's to see what their design is.



Eh, I'll take another look when I'm home over Thanksgiving, but I'm pretty sure there are beam forming plates in the EH 6CA7... can see them through the holes in the plate

If anyone has any dead ones, I'll do a dissection


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're not going to find any articles or reviews on the Sittard Holland EL84's. Most of these tubes are around 60+ years old. Let's just say, "rare."


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt-I just read "on the Internet" on a tube forum that the EH does not have the beam forming. If this is incorrect, please correct me. 

I always thought that the EH 6CA7's were a copy of the Philips/Sylvania 6CA7.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Matt-I just read "on the Internet" on a tube forum that the EH does not have the beam forming. If this is incorrect, please correct me.
> 
> I always thought that the EH 6CA7's were a copy of the Philips/Sylvania 6CA7.



I may be wrong, but I will investigate in about a week when I get home for the week of Thanksgiving 

I'll let you know, if I forget, remind me


----------



## MartyStrat54

I could always ask my buddy at the Tube Store.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just looked at one and I am going to say that it has a beam forming element. Why would they say, "built to the exacting specifications of a Philips 6CA7," if it didn't have the beam forming capability?


----------



## mickeydg5

I can see the beam electrodes in the EH6CA7


----------



## Jesstaa

Mmm, new EL34s.
Really livened up my 2203 putting in that new quad of JJ's and getting them biased up nice. For some reason the bias was set to 22mV before, with 483V on the plates. 

Is 483V high for an 80s 2203?


----------



## mickeydg5

Jesstaa said:


> Mmm, new EL34s.
> Really livened up my 2203 putting in that new quad of JJ's and getting them biased up nice. For some reason the bias was set to 22mV before, with 483V on the plates.
> 
> Is 483V high for an 80s 2203?


 
That depends on your mains setting and wall voltage.
But 23mV is putting you into crossover distortion territory. That is pretty cold.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just looked at one and I am going to say that it has a beam forming element. Why would they say, "built to the exacting specifications of a Philips 6CA7," if it didn't have the beam forming capability?



The people who wrote that probably know jack shit about Philips tubes, they just know it sounds good to say it's just like them


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> The people who wrote that probably know jack shit about Philips tubes, they just know it sounds good to say it's just like them



Could have been Darkhorse exposing another tube myth...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I shouldn't have accepted some unknown twerp's tube comments. There are so many people saying incorrect info about tubes on the Internet. I just should have been a little more concerned about his comments and evaluate what sounded right and what sounded like garbage.


----------



## brp

I got my CP JJ EL84's today and just had a go with them.
They're nice, I hear an improvement over the Sovtek, although not as much as the RFT NOS.
My amp still has a stiff sound, but of course I still have the Sovtek 12AX7 in the preamp so that's certainly why. I can't wait to get those out of there now.
But I'm in the process of taking care of that this evening.

Can't really judge the JJ's with the Sovtek in the pre slots but as I said it seems a little less stiff and harsh. Seems less fizzy too and I believe harmonics seemed to be clearer.

With all the reports of JJ failures, I'm crossing my fingers. 
I'm still planning on getting those NOS EL84, these will make a nice backup and reference point for them.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I got my CP JJ EL84's today and just had a go with them.
> They're nice, I hear an improvement over the Sovtek, although not as much as the RFT NOS.
> My amp still has a stiff sound, but of course I still have the Sovtek 12AX7 in the preamp so that's certainly why. I can't wait to get those out of there now.
> But I'm in the process of taking care of that this evening.
> 
> Can't really judge the JJ's with the Sovtek in the pre slots but as I said it seems a little less stiff and harsh. Seems less fizzy too and I believe harmonics seemed to be clearer.
> 
> With all the reports of JJ failures, I'm crossing my fingers.
> I'm still planning on getting those NOS EL84, these will make a nice backup and reference point for them.



Send me your addy and I'll get these Sittard's out to you. Alan PM'd me.


----------



## brp

Oh, you're done with them? It's cool if you wanna wait for your Strat...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like you are buying the Sittards.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Oh, you're done with them? It's cool if you wanna wait for your Strat...



I got it back last night and gave them a work out today. I like them a lot. You guys work out the details while I pack them up.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sounds like you are buying the Sittards.






Yep 

It's all NOS for me *squeals*
My birthday is at the end of the month and everything should be here by right around then.
Happy B-day to me from me.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Yep
> 
> It's all NOS for me *squeals*
> My birthday is at the end of the month and everything should be here by right around then.
> Happy B-day to me from me.



That'll be great! Nice BDAY gift to yourself!LOL


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got it back last night and gave them a work out today. I like them a lot. You guys work out the details while I pack them up.








I'm working it out with Allen as we speak.
I'll PM you my shipping deets and when he tells you he's been paid you're good to go.
Thanks guys!


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I'm working it out with Allen as we speak.
> I'll PM you my shipping deets and when he tells you he's been paid you're good to go.
> Thanks guys!


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That'll be great! Nice BDAY gift to yourself!LOL




That was my thinking.

I don't buy much or ask for anything so gotta splurge a li'l bit at B-day time. Only live once.

Might get a Tele before the year's out too


----------



## Jesstaa

Can EH 6CA7's handle 480+ on the plates? I'm gonna return these JJ's and get something different and I figured I'd try them out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Can EH 6CA7's handle 480+ on the plates? I'm gonna return these JJ's and get something different and I figured I'd try them out.



Yes, they can handle that.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, they can handle that.



Excellent. 
Guess I'll have some 6CA7's in a week or two. 

If only I had a good cab to really let 'em shine. I'll have to steal my friends vintage basketweave 4x12. Haha.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah a Sylvania NOS 6CA7 was rated at 800VDC Plate and 425VDC Screen. The EH is a copy of the Philips/Sylvania tube.


----------



## MM54

I've had the EH 6CA7's in the ML100 running 490 on the plates, never had an issue


----------



## gorioman

hi everyone, Im a newbie, I just got a JCM800 2205, I previously use a JCM900 4100. The JC800 came with GT 12AX7 Preamps, and GT-EL34C poweramps. I got the amp for $720. my question is, I kinda notice a little hiss, and hum sound on the Boost ch. Is that normal, beacuse comparing to my JCM 900. Its just quiet, and the noise is comparable. 
Any suggestion for preamp and power tubes changing on the JCM800. Thanks, I'm lookin forward on some good advice.


----------



## rjtm

That humming noise could be the tube or dirty tube sockets. To clean tube sockets use contact cleaner and itll make your amp more alive and could eliminate that hum. For power tubes, I would recommend =C= (if you have the money) or JJ's. Preamp tubes affect tone more and depends on what kind of music you play.


----------



## RiverRatt

As old as that amp is, it probably needs a cap job. Does the hum remain constant no matter what the volume is set to?

Sometimes preamp tubes can make a hissing sound. Like rjtm said, sometimes it's a bad connection. Spray some contact cleaner on the pins and work the tubes in and out of the socket a few times. If you still have the hissing sound, try swapping the preamp tubes around to different sockets and see if it goes away.


----------



## Jesstaa

Well the JJ's are on the way back, and I got the set of EH 6CA7s shipped out in advance (It would take 7 - 10 days for the tubes to get to the US, and another 7 - 10 days for tubes to get back + whatever turn around time there was) and I ain't waiting another 3 weeks just for fresh tubes.

Hope they're as good as you say they are, Marty/Matt.
Haha.


----------



## MM54




----------



## Jesstaa

EH 6CA7's. 
These should be fitted to all 2203's by law. 

I mean holy shit, low end, mids, high end, all in such massive quantites. Feels like the response of the master volume is a lot smoother too, I can get a lot of volume range while still quiet, and it sounds damn good. 
I don't care what my friend says, I'm bringing it to his place tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good to hear it Jess. What was your plate voltage? I hope that other info I sent you helped out.


----------



## Jesstaa

483 - 485.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope the bias matter becomes a moot issue. Enjoy the new tubes.


----------



## sccloser

I have a pair of Tesla EL 34's on the way....thanks Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I have a pair of Tesla EL 34's on the way....thanks Alan!





I realized I never got around to playing with them in the Tweaker. I went back to pop them in and see how they sounded and found out that I left my amp on the night before. Those tubes had been cooking for about 24 hours. They were the Russian 6P3S tubes, too. I think those may be some of the best Russian tubes ever. That or the 6P14P.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey SC....enjoy those Teslas....they are my favorites.....I scored a vintage Mullard 12ax7 and just got it tonite...put it on the tester and it pushed a strong 83/83....paid $4 for it....and another $4 for the Shipping....and I got that Ruby relabled Tesla I paid $29 for...it pushed a nice 78%....now I've finally got a full set of reasonably matched vintage Teslas...I swear, it's like this was the missing one.....can't wait till Band Practice Sunday....


----------



## solarburn

Getting some good deals on nice tubes 61rocker. Have fun!


----------



## 61rocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Getting some good deals on nice tubes 61rocker. Have fun!


 Yeah, I was tellin' Marty one day.....every so often, I slip one under the radar....Peace Joe....BTW, there are a few nice 12ax7s from good sellers listed now that might could be gotten for cheap....


----------



## johnfv

Those Teslas are sweet. My 1959T has Tesla EL34s in it that still sound great. I really can't remember how long they've been in there - 15 or 20 years? As long as they sound good I'll keep using 'em...


----------



## 61rocker

johnfv said:


> Those Teslas are sweet. My 1959T has Tesla EL34s in it that still sound great. I really can't remember how long they've been in there - 15 or 20 years? As long as they sound good I'll keep using 'em...


 Yep....I have a set of Vintage Svets, some Siemans (RFTs) and I like both of them very much....but those Teslas rule....I get a nice crunch from them I don't get from the other 2 sets...and that's with the same preamp lineup...I'm trying to get a stash going.....they are pricey...people on ebay are really high....


----------



## RiverRatt

I finally got around to trying the Teslas in the Tweaker now that they are sold. These are some good sounding EL34's! I know it's sacrilege to say it on a Marshall forum, but it sounds like a Marshall with EL34's in it. Well, to be fair, IMO it sounds better on the Marshall setting period, but the Teslas are great. I wish I still had the DSL50 to run them through.


----------



## 61rocker

I had practice today and had the Teslas going...no red-plating....sounded great....I feel complete now....now to find more to start my stash......


----------



## 61rocker

Egnator has a great product going...I can only imagine how those Teslas sounded....I read a short but very favorable review on the Tweaker 40 in a Vintage Guitar mag yesterday....


----------



## plexifier

Seeking advice for current production EL34's.

Amp: 100w plexi, turret board with mustards, etc., NOS preamp tubes, PPIMV and attenuator, closed-back 2x12 w/ Scumback speakers

Tones: classic rock (Free, Led Zeppelin, Bad Company, early AC/DC, etc.)

Guitars: Strat, Les Paul, Tele

Use: small to medium sized clubs (usually not mic'd)

I currently have SED winged C's which sound good but they're old and poorly matched. My main concern is reliability for gigging. I'm leaning towards SED's again but I'm open to suggestions. JJ's are tempting because of price but I've heard about some reliability problems.

Vendors with good service and matching? (tubesandmore.com, thetubestore.com, others???). Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

Have you completely ruled out RFT? They aren't much more than the SED EL34's and they are great for those tones. I like the Groove Tubes EL34Ms... for current production they aren't bad at all.


----------



## plexifier

RiverRatt said:


> Have you completely ruled out RFT? They aren't much more than the SED EL34's and they are great for those tones. I like the Groove Tubes EL34Ms... for current production they aren't bad at all.


That's the thing about the price of SED. I'm not against NOS if the price is reasonable. I thought about contacting Terry (tube tramp) or someone here to see what's available.

How much are a quad of RFT? Who has them?

So the GT Chinese are decent? I've never used GT tubes.


----------



## 61rocker

plexifier said:


> That's the thing about the price of SED. I'm not against NOS if the price is reasonable. I thought about contacting Terry (tube tramp) or someone here to see what's available.
> 
> How much are a quad of RFT? Who has them?
> 
> So the GT Chinese are decent? I've never used GT tubes.


 
I recently got a nice and strong set of RFT (Siemans) off Ebay for really cheap, but I lucked out....I see Quads for about $199 and NOS around that to $249....check the seller history and if they have a return policy...The RFTs have a smooth break up and full sound...vintage or NOS Preamp Tubes can make a huge difference whether you use vintage power tubes or CP.....The GT EL34Ms are supposed to be a reproduction of the old Mullard XF2 (I'll stand corrected as usual) and I thought they were Russian....but again I'll stand corrected....I do know that Groove Tube will designate a "C" after EL34 for Chinese and an "R" for Russian...


----------



## RiverRatt

plexifier said:


> That's the thing about the price of SED. I'm not against NOS if the price is reasonable. I thought about contacting Terry (tube tramp) or someone here to see what's available.
> 
> How much are a quad of RFT? Who has them?
> 
> So the GT Chinese are decent? I've never used GT tubes.



Brian Sanborn on eBay has been a good source of RFT's off and on. His seller ID is bmsanborn - I just looked and he doesn't have any listed. He's a good dude to buy from. His prices are in-line with what 61rocker listed. I haven't heard anything out of Terry in awhile. What forum is he hanging out on these days?


----------



## plexifier

RiverRatt said:


> Brian Sanborn on eBay has been a good source of RFT's off and on. His seller ID is bmsanborn - I just looked and he doesn't have any listed. He's a good dude to buy from. His prices are in-line with what 61rocker listed. I haven't heard anything out of Terry in awhile. What forum is he hanging out on these days?


Thanks for the info. Terry used to post at Metro but it's been a few months.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those supplies of NOS RFT's are starting to dry up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn't someone post fairly recently that they were available on the MESA website?


----------



## 61rocker

Gotta bump the Power Tubes up a notch....


----------



## sccloser

Do you guys find that one of the characteristics of =C= el 34's is loose bottom end?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Do you guys find that one of the characteristics of =C= el 34's is loose bottom end?



Not at all. IMO they are a tight tube but the low end isn't their strong point. I had to dial them in differently with my DSL but overall I was happy with the way they sounded. Sounds like you might need to play around with the bias a little. In my DSL50 I ran them at close to 70% and they were good. Not my favorite, but I could definitely live with them.


----------



## sccloser

I'm not liking the way my 2205 is sounding on the boost channel using the neck pup of my LP or my SG. Bottom end sounding fuzzy. I noticed it at our last couple of shows. I figured it was the GB's in my 1960ax since I usually use 12-75's with the 800, but experimenting today it sounded like that even with the 75's. I have vid's of older shows when I was playing through 75's and was using Tesla el34's and the bottom sounded tighter. Of course, I had different preamp tubes back then as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well speakers are usually pretty rugged and last a long time. Once broken in, they are usually a little warmer sounding than when they first were installed. Based on what you said, I would have to say that certain tubes are the culprit.

I'm sort of set in my ways. I like Eminence speakers and DiMarzio pickups and a bright and tight V1. I really like the DARIO for a V1. You also might try a set of 6CA7's. Every guy that has tried them all state the same thing. "A nice and tight bottom end."


----------



## sccloser

I guess another thing is that I am playing more solos on the neck pick up on the boost channel than in the past. But still, I do not recall the fuzziness that I am getting now. I am running an Amperex Holland in v1 now. 

How would you compare the Teslas to =C='s?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's been a long time since I personally used/heard Tesla's. What I do remember is that they were more like an RFT in the low, low-mids. In other words, punchier.


----------



## sccloser

I may stick the Teslas in that I got from Alan and give it a whirl.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's been a long time since I personally used/heard Tesla's. What I do remember is that they were more like an RFT in the low, low-mids. In other words, punchier.



I think that's the main complaint I have with most CP stuff... they don't have the punch that old tubes do.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I think that's the main complaint I have with most CP stuff... they don't have the punch that old tubes do.



But my =C= el34's are _vintage_...1999!


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I may stick the Teslas in that I got from Alan and give it a whirl.



Like I said, the way the tubes are biased will have a huge impact on tone. Don't be afraid to bias them cooler or push them a little. If my amp sounds better biased hot, that's how I'm going to run it. I don't care if it goes through power tubes faster, if it sounds better that's what matters.

Yeah, give those Teslas a try. They sounded good what little I got to use them.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Like I said, the way the tubes are biased will have a huge impact on tone. Don't be afraid to bias them cooler or push them a little. If my amp sounds better biased hot, that's how I'm going to run it. I don't care if it goes through power tubes faster, if it sounds better that's what matters.



Well, that is another little variable there. I think when I had the Teslas in there before, they were not biased very hot. I do not recall, but I think I checked them before I switched in the =c= tubes and they were less than 70%...maybe more like 60%. Right now I got the =c='s up to 70%. Maybe I should back them down a tad?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Right now I got the =c='s up to 70%. Maybe I should back them down a tad?



I may get flamed for this, but when I bias a set of power tubes, I do it by ear, not by numbers. I tweak the bias until I get the best possible tone, then do the math and see if they are within spec. I watch them pretty closely and make sure they aren't red plating, but I usually don't even get close to that. I've had EL34's that sounded their best running at 36-38mV. You have to dial in that particular set of tubes to that particular amplifier, don't just take the 70% rule and run with it. Think of that as your maximum and dial in from there if you want. As long as you're going colder, you won't mess anything up.


----------



## plexifier

Quick update:
Based on some advice here and elsewhere, I put GT EL34M's in my main plexi and I'm happy with them. I replaced some old winged C's.

I noticed an increase in clarity and treble response. They're not really brighter, just nice and clear with good definition. Individual notes in chords sound clear.

The GT "rating" is 4 and they are pretty closely matched (within 4 mA). They required quite a bit less negative voltage to bias than the winged C's. I'm not sure if that's caused by the GT rating or what.

Anyway, so far so good. I hope they are reliable.


----------



## sccloser

Hey, before I had a probe, I used to adjust the bias by ear all the time. I never had a problem. I had a Carvin mts3200 once that sounded sterile. It had 4 5881's in it. You could hardly tell they were on they were so dimly lit. I pulled out the chassis, found the bias pot and turned it until the tubes were a bit brighter. Then played it some. Did that a few times until the sound kinda warmed up/got fuller. The tubes were fine. 

When I got my probe I noticed most of my amps were biased on the cold side. When I bias them up to 70% the tubes usually glow much brighter than before.


----------



## RiverRatt

plexifier said:


> Quick update:
> Based on some advice here and elsewhere, I put GT EL34M's in my main plexi and I'm happy with them. I replaced some old winged C's.
> 
> I noticed an increase in clarity and treble response. They're not really brighter, just nice and clear with good definition. Individual notes in chords sound clear.
> 
> The GT "rating" is 4 and they are pretty closely matched (within 4 mA). They required quite a bit less negative voltage to bias than the winged C's. I'm not sure if that's caused by the GT rating or what.
> 
> Anyway, so far so good. I hope they are reliable.



I like the GT EL34M's a lot. They do like to be biased colder than most tubes. I think I ran my pair at 38mV in my DSL50.


----------



## sccloser

Well, I stuck the Tesla's I got from Alan in, didn't even have to adjust the bias as they were well in range. My plate voltage is 482, so 70% is 36 mv...the highest one was 33 so I was good. Sounded much better. Tightened up the low end. Actually lost a little bass, but since it tightened up it sounded much better. Like I said earlier, it was when I was playing on the boost channel of my 2205 with the rhythm pup on the LP or SG that it got fuzzy on the bottom. 

Only issue is that those Tesla's do not match very closely. They are about 11 mv apart. Did not seem to affect the sound...they still sounded great. So, I pulled out my old Teslas (they actually say Tesla on them) and stuck them in. They were pulling 28 mv and 22, so they were running colder, but more balanced. I played for a while and liked them as well. Sounded about the same as the others. 

Had to turn off for the evening...wife complaining. I'll do more testing later. 

I also popped my Siemens/RFT;s in, but they were pulling about 45 mv, so I took them back out. Did not feel like adjusting the bias pot just for those when all the others were in range. That is a project for when I have more time.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Well, I stuck the Tesla's I got from Alan in, didn't even have to adjust the bias as they were well in range. My plate voltage is 482, so 70% is 36 mv...the highest one was 33 so I was good. Sounded much better. Tightened up the low end. Actually lost a little bass, but since it tightened up it sounded much better. Like I said earlier, it was when I was playing on the boost channel of my 2205 with the rhythm pup on the LP or SG that it got fuzzy on the bottom.
> 
> Only issue is that those Tesla's do not match very closely. They are about 11 mv apart. Did not seem to affect the sound...they still sounded great. So, I pulled out my old Teslas (they actually say Tesla on them) and stuck them in. They were pulling 28 mv and 22, so they were running colder, but more balanced. I played for a while and liked them as well. Sounded about the same as the others.
> 
> Had to turn off for the evening...wife complaining. I'll do more testing later.
> 
> I also popped my Siemens/RFT;s in, but they were pulling about 45 mv, so I took them back out. Did not feel like adjusting the bias pot just for those when all the others were in range. That is a project for when I have more time.



Wow, those tubes tested really close on my B&K. Sorry that they were so far apart.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> Well, I stuck the Tesla's I got from Alan in, didn't even have to adjust the bias as they were well in range. My plate voltage is 482, so 70% is 36 mv...the highest one was 33; fuzzy on the bottom.
> 
> Only issue is that those Tesla's do not match very closely. They are about 11 mv apart.
> 
> my old Teslas (they actually say Tesla on them) and stuck them in. They were pulling 28 mv and 22, so they were running colder, but more balanced. I played for a while and liked them as well. Sounded about the same as the others.
> 
> Had to turn off for the evening...wife complaining. I'll do more testing later.
> 
> I also popped my Siemens/RFT;s in, but they were pulling about 45 mv


 
I am just curious,
did you try swapping sides with those power tubes to check differences in mV readings?

The subject is a 2205 with EL34 tubes if I am correct. Is not 22 and 28mV kind of cold for that amp? If this is the correct amp, then that is where the bottom end is going and bringing in the fizz.

Am I thinking of the correct amp?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I may get flamed for this, but when I bias a set of power tubes, I do it by ear, not by numbers. I tweak the bias until I get the best possible tone, then do the math and see if they are within spec. I watch them pretty closely and make sure they aren't red plating, but I usually don't even get close to that. I've had EL34's that sounded their best running at 36-38mV. You have to dial in that particular set of tubes to that particular amplifier, don't just take the 70% rule and run with it. Think of that as your maximum and dial in from there if you want. As long as you're going colder, you won't mess anything up.



I'd run my meter watching the bias and use my ears too. I wouldn't do it without the meter being hooked up though. I wanted to see where the bias was and where the best tone I could decipher with my ears was at. With my DSL50 I liked them from 36 to 38mv depending on the tubes. Usually ran between 65% to 70% dissipation. From 40mv up to 45mv I thought the tone degraded on mine.

Those GT 34M's sounded great. Good to see others finding out about them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe! 

I used to keep a couple of cheap meters hooked up to the test points on my DSL50 for days after I put in a new set of tubes. My RFT's and Svet Winged C's liked to run at 41mV. The RFT's in particular were very clear, defined and punchy at 41mV (IIRC it worked out to 65%). 

I caught a runaway RFT by keeping the meters connected. It didn't start until the tube had gotten good and hot, then the meter would start climbing up around 50mV. I got in touch with my supplier (you probably know who I'm talking about) and he sent me another RFT that matched the good one. I used that set for a couple of years in the DSL before I sold it. They were my favorite EL34's of any that I used in that amp. I put the GT EL34M's in it when I got rid of it and it still sounded damned good.


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5 said:


> I am just curious,
> did you try swapping sides with those power tubes to check differences in mV readings?
> 
> The subject is a 2205 with EL34 tubes if I am correct. Is not 22 and 28mV kind of cold for that amp? If this is the correct amp, then that is where the bottom end is going and bringing in the fizz.
> 
> Am I thinking of the correct amp?



I swapped the tubes and they measured the same.

22 and 28 is where a different set of tubes was running when I put them in. Max (70%) would have been 36 mv. They sounded very good so I did not adjust them any hotter.

The tubes I had in it before the swaps were =C= Svetlanas from 1999. I had them biased at about 35 mv...close to max. I plugged in a pair of Tesla's I got from alan and they were running 33 mv and 22 mv. Did not matter which side (I switched them and the same tubes read the same.) I put in a pair of Tesla's I had laying around, and they were pulling 22 and 28 mv. I swapped in a pair of NOS RFT's and they were pulling 45 and 43 mv...way too hot, so I just took them back out as I did not feel like adjusting them at that moment.

The =C= el34's had more bass response, but the low end was loose and kind of fuzzy. None of the Teslas had the loose bottom end, biased cold or not. 

I wonder if I back the =C= 's down to about 28 or 30 if they would tighten up on the bottom?


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

Should not hurt anything to run them 11 mv apart, should it? As long as the higher tube is within range? I guess one may wear out a little faster than the other.


----------



## RiverRatt

If it were me, I would match up the two tubes that were in the 22 range together or the two that read the highest. Those numbers you have sound really, really low. I've never run a set of EL34's colder than 36mV or so. The magic spot on the DSL50 was 38 to 42mV with either the =C='s or RFT's. 42 was around 68% or so. The coldest pair I had were the GT EL34M's that sounded good between 36-38mV. I don't even think my amp had the range to go down to the low 20s.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe!
> 
> I used to keep a couple of cheap meters hooked up to the test points on my DSL50 for days after I put in a new set of tubes. My RFT's and Svet Winged C's liked to run at 41mV. The RFT's in particular were very clear, defined and punchy at 41mV (IIRC it worked out to 65%).
> 
> I caught a runaway RFT by keeping the meters connected. It didn't start until the tube had gotten good and hot, then the meter would start climbing up around 50mV. I got in touch with my supplier (you probably know who I'm talking about) and he sent me another RFT that matched the good one. I used that set for a couple of years in the DSL before I sold it. They were my favorite EL34's of any that I used in that amp. I put the GT EL34M's in it when I got rid of it and it still sounded damned good.



When the amp gets hotter after play'n for a bit is where drifting shows its ugly head. I always made sure I played for a while checking and rechecking just so I learned the behavior of my amps bias control and tube tendencies. I had some EH 6CA7's drift(got another per warranty)and one other different pair can't remember what they were.

I actually liked the GT 34M's a hair more over the RFT's and you know I love me some German made glass!LOL

Actually I learned a great deal having the DSL and all the rolling/biasing power tubes we did. Was a perfect platform to learn how to bias. Rolling power tubes can make a marked difference good or bad. Especially at volume. Worth while to me and I know a few others that feel the same. 

Saved a shit load of time/money cause we didn't have to send it to a tech to do it. No wonder so many players walk away from these amps. Shit tubes(microphonics/drifting/redplating), too cold or hot biases(redplating), impedance mismatches, forgot to hook the speaker cable up/used instrument cable instead. Fuck I learned a truck load here. Thanx guys!LOL


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> If it were me, I would match up the two tubes that were in the 22 range together or the two that read the highest. Those numbers you have sound really, really low. I've never run a set of EL34's colder than 36mV or so. The magic spot on the DSL50 was 38 to 42mV with either the =C='s or RFT's. 42 was around 68% or so. The coldest pair I had were the GT EL34M's that sounded good between 36-38mV. I don't even think my amp had the range to go down to the low 20s.



Well, my plate voltage was about 482, so 36 mv is 70%. I guess they may be about 50% right now. I am not necessarily planning to leave them there.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> If it were me, I would match up the two tubes that were in the 22 range together or the two that read the highest.



That's a good idea.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The quick replacement of power tubes. That's a common mistake when changing them out.

I always play the old tubes for at least an hour. This get the "chassis" up to temperature. Then I proceed to change out the tubes. I know that a lot of the guys here get their new tubes in the mail and they go and pull the old one's out and put in the new one's and then try to bias them up all in about five minutes. This is incorrect procedure and should not be followed.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Well, my plate voltage was about 482, so 36 mv is 70%. I guess they may be about 50% right now. I am not necessarily planning to leave them there.



Yeah, that's quite a bit higher than my DSL. You're pushing them harder than I thought.

I had a Fender 6L6 amp that was running around 490. The blue glow coming off those poor overworked Russian tubes was fun to watch.


----------



## mickeydg5

*sccloser*

I guess you are using the 1-ohm cathode measurement or bias probe for biasing.

EL34/6CA7 type tubes usually run best at a median of 39 to 41mV in a lot of amps. That is an average. You need to calculate the screen wattage as well. With 482VDC on the plates, a 70% setting would be closer to 42mV, not 36mV. 28mV is cold and 22mV is way to low. You are running your the tubes into crossover distortion territory. You will loose volume, depth, low frequency and cause it to sound raspy.

I agree, try to use two tubes that are as close as possible. I feel the difference though may be a combination of tube strength and the circuit or OT, but try to get two tubes that are biasing close.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just dealt with an amp tech that has a Music Man amp pushing 720 on the B+. JJ claims their 6CA7 is good for 800V. I think the EH is rated that high as well.

I wouldn't want to get zapped by that. Shit!


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5 said:


> *sccloser*
> 
> I guess you are using the 1-ohm cathode measurement or bias probe for biasing.
> 
> EL34/6CA7 type tubes usually run best at a median of 39 to 41mV in a lot of amps. That is an average. You need to calculate the screen wattage as well. With 482VDC on the plates, a 70% setting would be closer to 42mV, not 36mV. 28mV is cold and 22mV is way to low. You are running your the tubes into crossover distortion territory. You will loose volume, depth, low frequency and cause it to sound raspy.
> 
> I agree, try to use two tubes that are as close as possible. I feel the difference though may be a combination of tube strength and the circuit or OT, but try to get two tubes that are biasing close.



Am I doing my math wrong? Since the el 34 is rated at 25 watt max dissipation, I divide 25 by the plate voltage (482) and multiply by .7 for 70%. I get 36mv.

I use the Amphead bias probe.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## sccloser

I do have tubes that bias pretty close in this amp.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Am I doing my math wrong? Since the el 34 is rated at 25 watt max dissipation, I divide 25 by the plate voltage (482) and multiply by .7 for 70%. I get 36mv.
> 
> I use the Amphead bias probe.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.



He's adding 5mv for sreen too. Funny thing is I didn't notice any tone improvement from 40mv up to 45mv which Marshall advises. 65% is not too low and as long as you don't go too cold into what he described(hope ears can tell)you can have longer tube life though I never tested that out. The hotter the bias the shorter the tube life. I found my amp to begin to lose definition and get raspy at 45mv's at volume in general.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> Am I doing my math wrong? Since the el 34 is rated at 25 watt max dissipation, I divide 25 by the plate voltage (482) and multiply by .7 for 70%. I get 36mv.
> 
> I use the Amphead bias probe.
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong.


 
Just add some for screen consumption. Some people just add 5mv to the total for the screen with a EL34.

EL34 screen wattage is 8. I divide that in half for leeway and use 4. Add 25 + 4 = 29 watts.

(29 / 482) x .70 = 42.116.
42mV (42mA) is a good number (for high class AB operation).


----------



## mickeydg5

What I described is an average (for 70%, a higher class AB). Some tubes will bias higher and others lower and still sound similar or good to your ear.


----------



## sccloser

Hmm. Ok. I can tell you, though, that I played the amp for about 30 to 40 minutes with the tubes biased low like that and they sounded very good. But when I make my final decision on which to use I will run them up a bit more, as you are correct that they are a bit low. I think I will use Alan's advice and pair up the tubes that were pulling 22 mv and then pair up the 33 with the 28. Then I'll have one el34 marked Marshall and one marked Tesla and I will tell everyone who sees it that it is my own custom set-up...lol!


----------



## mickeydg5

I would not go any higher than 70%, that is a higher AB. I like to run my tubes a little hotter, at 65% but not above 70%.

But, at 480 or 490V, 29mV is a lower number that may sound good. 22mV seems low. Test it out and let us (me) know about the tone and sound at those levels.


----------



## sccloser

Hope to have time to mess with it some more tomorrow. Been working a lot lately and when I was off I was with family.


----------



## sccloser

First, how did this thread get all the way back to page 7? 

Anyway, thought I'd share el84 v. el844 experience.

I've used both in my dsl 401 now. I went to the el844's in the otherwise stock dsl to gain some bass response/low end. It worked. But I also lost a noticeable amount of volume and I got more tube saturation sooner. This was Ok with the stock speaker, as it has no bass response and sounds bad to start with. The el844's actually made it sound better at lower, but really only at lower vols, as when I cranked it up the speaker just sounded like aluminum foil.

So, after swapping in a Celestion G12-65, it was very bassy! And you could not get the clean channel to clean up very clean. Lots of breakup. So I decided to swap the Ei el84's back in. Boomy bass went away, more mid range, cleans could now be cleaned up, and gained back lost volume. 

I also noticed it is easier to discern differences in tone while swapping preamp tubes now, I guess since the power tubes are less saturated and the speaker is better. 

So, I think if you have an amp that you want to boost the low end considerably and want more power tube saturation at lower volume levels the el844's are worth a try.

The real test will be Saturday. I'll take the amp to practice and see how it does. It does sound much better than it did, but to tell the truth my C5 really has been blowing it away and I kind of expect that is not going to change.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sad to say, the tube threads have not had much activity lately.

Thanks for the data. I haven't tried the 844's. When they were announced, there was nothing that excited me. 

I have a DSL401 with a Red Fang speaker. It is very efficient with a 103dB at one watt rating. Are you saying that your C5 can get as loud as a forty watt amp, or are you saying that the C5 has better tones?


----------



## mickeydg5

sounds like he is going for the tones

I think that Red Fang would help the 844 out a good bit as compared to a G12-65.


----------



## sccloser

I mean the C5 has much better tone. And actually, with the el844's I do not think that the dsl was much louder than the C5, but that could be more a matter tone as well as it was probably not cutting through the mix as well in the config it was in.

One thing I have always noticed about the dsl 401 is that while it is loud on its own, the voicing of that amp makes it more difficult to cut through the mix IMO. If you don't use the green channel for clean, but rather for crunch, it sounds much better to me. 

But I'll give it a try with the new config...g12-65, Ei el84's, and Sylvania NOS pre's..


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm glad I got my Red Fang before the price jumped on them. Funny, Parts Express had them at $279 I believe, but they are now on sale for $190.

Micky-I would like to have a 412 cab loaded with the Eminence Black Mountain. 

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> One thing I have always noticed about the dsl 401 is that while it is loud on its own, the voicing of that amp makes it more difficult to cut through the mix IMO. If you don't use the green channel for clean, but rather for crunch, it sounds much better to me.
> 
> But I'll give it a try with the new config...g12-65, Ei el84's, and Sylvania NOS pre's..



Well as I commented over on the Preamp Tube thread, I stated that the 401 is very sensitive to the tubes and speaker that are in it.

Personally, I don't like a stock 401. (As I said, I did like the 1999 401, but that was a high bias amp.) I always wished that Marshall would have made a 401 head. I think a lot of people are turned off by the stock tone of a 401. 

However, if you take the time to put in good tubes and a decent speaker, the 401 turns into a very nice EL84 amp.


----------



## MM54

I meant to be clever and make my post #6550 in here, but I just looked and I'm at 6552


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm glad I got my Red Fang before the price jumped on them. Funny, Parts Express had them at $279 I believe, but they are now on sale for $190.
> 
> Micky-I would like to have a 412 cab loaded with the Eminence Black Mountain.
> 
> Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


 

Black Mountains have a great curve, that is until it hits 4700Hz. On the samples the speaker sounds deep and throaty. I would like something to add chime and highs.

If you throw in 2 Red Fangs somehow or something like that, then you have full on assault.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Red Fangs and Black Mountains. Now that sounds interesting.


----------



## sccloser

***UPDATE***

Used the DSL 401 at band practice today. For the most part it sounded pretty good. It does not cut through on the OD1 or OD2 like the C5, but the Green channel is great and sounds really good boosted with the Boss GE7. It is pretty mid rangey with the Sylvania tubes I have in it right now. I may experiment with those a bit more. But it does not sound like it is playing through an aluminum foil speaker anymore, which is a plus. I think that it would be usable for small gigs where stage space is limited, which was my goal in this to start with.


----------



## brp

I was just editing a clip I did with the Night Train with the Sittard EL84's in it before the one blew, hadn't really got back to the clip until now. It sounds good!
I'm going to do some clips for you guys of it once I get the other Sittard again.
Where's the best place to upload little demo clips?
I don't have an account anywhere for that.

I can't wait to try some tracking with the Tweaker in the meantime and then I'll see how those are improved on with the NOS tubes Alan is recommending to me for it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, I'm going to preface this with the standard disclaimer that while I did the following tube swap in my amp and it didn't blow up is no guarantee that yours won't. Consider yourselves warned.

I had run across several 8BQ5's in all those tubes I have. I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is an amateur radio fanatic. He really knows tubes. I mentioned the 8BQ5's and he said they should work fine in a 6.3v amp at around 70% output. I decided my Vox AC4TV Mini didn't cost much and would make a good test subject. 

Not only did it work, it sounded GOOD. That amp only has a 6.5" speaker and it's never had any low end, but it was much better with the 8BQ5. The amp had a nice amount of sag and sounded pretty chunky for such a little speaker. It had a nice "brown sound" bark to it that I liked. 

I was using the Heartfield/Fender Talon II that I posted in the guitar thread awhile back. The neck and bridge humbuckers are old Dimarzio OEM pickups and the middle single-coil is a USA Fender flat pole-piece. The neck pickup was really thick and smooth. The single-coil sounded pretty much like a typical Strat middle pickup tone (Trower) and the bridge pickup was the brown sound.

There's not much cleaning it up, but it responds well to your picking attack and can do a hot semi-clean tone if you back off. On the 1 watt setting it was still really thick but more at a good practice amp level. The 1/4 watt setting is pointless. It sounds like you hooked a speaker up to an EH Big Muff. The full 4 watts is loud enough to hang with a drummer. I know it doesn't sound like much, but it's mostly all mids. 

The thing that got me interested in this was somebody a few pages ago talking about the JJ EL844. I remembered those 8BQ5's and figured that the results would be similar to the JJ tube - less output and more saturation, and that's pretty much how it went.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> The thing that got me interested in this was somebody a few pages ago talking about the JJ EL844. I remembered those 8BQ5's and figured that the results would be similar to the JJ tube - less output and more saturation, and that's pretty much how it went.



I was probably the guilty party...


----------



## sccloser

So, do the experts think we could get away with running 8bq5's in place of 6bq5/el84's? I have heard of people subbing them, but mostly when they were building DIY amps and could tap the trannies for the 8v heater voltages.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, I would still be concerned about the heater filament life running the lower heater voltage. Of course, why not use them to use, right? I guess it's no big loss if they die. I mean, what else are you going to use them in?

You may have remembered me replying to one of your earlier comments about the 8BQ5. I told you I bought some Sylvania's 6BQ5's on EBAY and when I got them, I put them in a HiFi amp and when I turned it on, something was wrong with the amp. Being that I just installed the tubes, I took a better look at them and discovered that one of them was a 8BQ5. It didn't fair well in that cathode biased amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yikes man. An 8V tube in a 6.3V circuit will hardly be operating because of low emmission especially if your heater voltage is low already or the filament is on the weak side.

A four tube power section with one out of spec tube filament running on the bad side is almost like running the amplifier with only three tubes. (somewhat, never tried it or measured it, or intend on trying)


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> A four tube power section with one out of spec tube filament running on the bad side is almost like running the amplifier with only three tubes. (somewhat, never tried it or measured it, or intend on trying)



Exactly. That's what happened in my HiFi amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, I ran it for an hour. No problems at all. 

I don't see how the filament could be in danger running at a lower voltage. I know the emission will be low, that was the whole point. I can remember a tube overdrive pedal that use a starved 12AU7 and it worked and sounded good. Like Marty said, if the filament goes, I really haven't lost anything.


----------



## mickeydg5

I never played around with those scenarios. A starved tube is still running normal filament voltage. Starvation is a state of operation, it is not just putting a variac on your line supply.

A low filament voltage will reduce tube life, how much I don't know. The thing is you will purposely be playing Russian ruolette with your power section and power supply. If anything bad happens there is a possibility that it can take other components down with it.


----------



## sccloser

I have read that in older amps, the source AC voltage was assumed to be 115 to 117, and with that input v the 6.3vdc tap on the tranny delivers close to the 6.3vdc. But many homes in the US today have 121 or more vac wall current, so that the heater tap could possible be 6.7vdc or so, which would make the 8bq5 work a little better I suppose. But then again, that is not that much different.


----------



## sccloser

the dreaded double post...


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen various input voltages on transformers as well.
The US nominal is supposed to be 120VAC with boundaries of 114 to 126. I have noticed on occassion average voltages below 116VAC and up to 123VAC at times. Keep in mind that these are nominal voltages and can theoretically drop below 110VAC on occasion due to various circumstances.

Still, an 8V filament circuit would have to be 16% low to get to those 6.3V filament numbers. That is getting close to the minimum specification and rejection point of the actual tube.

Also, there is always a chance that the transformer in mind may have been wound on the lower side producing less than the average 6.3V filament. You would have to test the voltages and calculate.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I never played around with those scenarios. A starved tube is still running normal filament voltage. Starvation is a state of operation, it is not just putting a variac on your line supply.
> 
> A low filament voltage will reduce tube life, how much I don't know. The thing is you will purposely be playing Russian ruolette with your power section and power supply. If anything bad happens there is a possibility that it can take other components down with it.



I have less than $100 invested in the Vox... I'm not that concerned about its welfare. I just wanted to see what would happen and how it would sound. 

I've discussed this with other people and read everything I can find and I see no evidence that it will harm the amp to run it this way. The tube will distort easily, emission will be at around 70%, and the filament life may be shortened. Those are the only issues that I have found with any consistency. If the filament burns out, the tube simply won't work. I still think that this is how JJ got the EL844 to run at 70% of the output of their regular EL84.

This is tube rolling on the cutting edge. Damn the risk!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I have less than $100 invested in the Vox... I'm not that concerned about its welfare. I just wanted to see what would happen and how it would sound.
> 
> I've discussed this with other people and read everything I can find and I see no evidence that it will harm the amp to run it this way. The tube will distort easily, emission will be at around 70%, and the filament life may be shortened. Those are the only issues that I have found with any consistency. If the filament burns out, the tube simply won't work. I still think that this is how JJ got the EL844 to run at 70% of the output of their regular EL84.
> 
> This is tube rolling on the cutting edge. Damn the risk!


 
All that is true. I would expect that at some point they will just get too weak and start sounding dull. Just watch out for oscillation and shut down. If you hear that, switch the amp off. Hey, have fun with it.
I will be reading to hear the outcome of sounds produced.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 8BQ5 is still running smooth as silk. I swapped it out for a regular 6BQ5 and there's a huge difference. I'm not saying to use one in every EL84 amp, but with that little Vox AC4TV Mini it's perfect. The amp sounds way bigger than it is.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was messin' around with my camera and shot this video of the AC4TV Mini while I had it apart. That's the blurry 8BQ5 in the foreground. It was putting on a nice light show. Not too bad for a 6.5" speaker.

[ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IpkFdVmfVk"]www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IpkFdVmfVk[/ame]


----------



## brp

Cool!


----------



## mickeydg5

It dances to the music, nice!


----------



## RiverRatt

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but I recorded a mo' better clip with the 8BQ5. I thought it sounded pretty good with my new mic.

Nowhere.mp3


----------



## sccloser

I bought a pair of Peavey packaged el34's, new in the package, for $10 a while back. Clearly marked made in China. Crappy looking micas (the one that look like child laborer's cut them out with scissors...lol!) but they have dual getters. Are teh one's with dual getters any better?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The old NOS tubes with dual getters were better and cost more money nowadays (think Mullard xF2's). They did a better job of preventing unwanted gasses in the tube.

Speaking of getters. I have a set of Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's that are triple getters, two on the top and one side. Very rare and about $85 per tube on the current market.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey guys, I will be spending less and less time over here. I have moved over to the new Marshall Heads Forum. Here is my Tube Thread. I will be over here to check messages and maybe make an occasional post. You are welcomed to join me over there. Marty

Marshall Heads Forum &bull; View topic - Tubes, Tubes, Tubes!!!


----------



## iron broadsword

I just re-biased my JCM900 4100 and spent the last 4 hours jamming on it, and just wow. A few months ago I dropped in four new Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR's and biased it to what I had understood to be correct. It sounded great to my ears, but I discovered that I had actually set it up really cold. So after having properly done my research, I got the plate voltage and did the math, and set it to 42mA and WOW it screams! I had previously biased it to 24mA. Srsly.


----------



## solarburn

I bet it sounds better. Those were some chilled toobs.LOL


----------



## iron broadsword

Hehe, yep. Biased so cold that they were cryogenically preserved and are still brand new. XD


----------



## solarburn




----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Popped onto ebay last night after getting back from a night out and saw these little beauties on a buy it now 29 day auction (just started) for the silly sum of £24 for the pair. They have short bases and as i suspected from the not very good single pic in the auction they have foil getters, anyone know what kind of date this puts them at? As far as I can tell they are NOS as they come in the original boxes and look mint.

erm waht else do we need, oh yeah 

:banana-gotpics:


----------



## iron broadsword

I'll soon be looking at picking up some other tubes for my C5 combo -- I'm only interested in current production, but I've not really dove into learning about what different EL84s sound like quite yet. 

I'm looking for earliest breakup, and something that might be suitable for rock/hard rock. I run a distortion pedal out front, but I also like light breakup and I need a little more of that at volumes I can use in church.


----------



## RiverRatt

If you're only interested in current production, the JJ's are as good as anything else out there. That should be what was installed in your C5; that's what was in mine.

By not checking out the old tubes, you're eliminating the very ones that will do what you ask. I have a lot of EL84/6BQ5 tubes that sound great in the C5 and aren't any more expensive than current production.


----------



## allstar100595

Hey guys! Receiving a 6100 LE soon, and probably want to change up the tubes in it. I've seen Marty's suggestions for V1-V7, but I haven't been able to dig up much on the power tubes for it. Does anyone here have any preferences of power tubes for a 6100, el34's? I guess what I've been looking most at are the JJ, TAD, and EH. Anything else?


----------



## allstar100595

Sorry, definitely looking for an old-school feel, straight up el34 tone, not really into the el34b's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll always recommend the Groove Tubes EL34M. It's a great-sounding tube that has a really old-school tone. SolarburnDSL50 tried a pair of mine once and went out and bought more. He described them as "instant AC/DC". They really are good sounding tubes. With Winged C's being so expensive now, IMO the EL34M's are about the best bargain out there. I've used the Electro-Harmonix tubes as well as the JJ's. If you play at loud volumes I think the JJ E34L sounds pretty good but if you're going to be playing at anything from bedroom volume to about 4 or 5 on the master volume, the GT's will sound fuller with more bottom and low mids.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah and how many 34's did we go through in our DSL's?LOL

I'm a blues/rock player. Classic rock tones are my thing. That Marshall mid gain goodness and even the meatiness of hard rock saturation. Modern voiced gain is not my thing.

The 34M's really sounded and felt great. I used the 1-3 rating 34M's. I'm not kidding when I've seen guys with the original Mullard XF2's and these 34M's compare them. Apparently its very close. Usually guys that have the XF2's become a bit elitist and would never put them in the same neighborhood.LOL Some have and these are players that own both. 

Don't blame me if you find they don't. Alan told you first.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, glad you've got my back Joe...


----------



## solarburn

Lol!


----------



## DirtySteve

I know it's probably been discussed all over this thread, but I simply don't have time to go through this entire thread and I'm not finding what I'm looking for with a search...

Whats a good CP 6L6? I just bought an amp (CA10- 10 watt, 1 power tube) that can use an EL34 or a 6L6 (maybe others, but it hasn't been tested)...I've tried a couple of different EL34s (EH & GT EL34M), but I want to try a 6L6 to see what they're like. I'm looking for a more metal tone and right now I have an awesome hard rock tone, but not metal. 

Will a 6L6 be more metal or less?...or am I asking too much from a power tube? I'm really in the dark here. The only power tube I'm familiar with is the EL*84*.


----------



## DirtySteve

RiverRatt said:


> I'll always recommend the Groove Tubes EL34M. It's a great-sounding tube that has a really old-school tone. SolarburnDSL50 tried a pair of mine once and went out and bought more. He described them as "instant AC/DC". They really are good sounding tubes. With Winged C's being so expensive now, IMO the EL34M's are about the best bargain out there. I've used the Electro-Harmonix tubes as well as the JJ's. If you play at loud volumes I think the JJ E34L sounds pretty good but if you're going to be playing at anything from bedroom volume to about 4 or 5 on the master volume, the GT's will sound fuller with more bottom and low mids.



Wow, that was exactly my impression of the GT playing it for the first time after swapping out the EH the amp came with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The best CP 6L6GC is the TAD, but I don't know if they sell singles. These are copies of the RCA Black Plate.

Every amp/every circuit is different. In my opinion, an EL34 is more of a metal tone, but you won't know how the 6L6 will sound until you try it. Single tubes on EBAY are usually quite cheap, because there isn't a big demand for a single tube (unless it is a Western Electric 300B...lol). You might snag a USA 6L6GC pretty cheap on the BAY.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm sure I have an odd single 6L6GC that I could part with. PM me if you're interested.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks Marty, maybe I already have what I need then, but like you said, I won't know 'til I try. I just got the amp so I'm still tweaking the eq and rolling pres. For NOS 12ax7s I have a GE, Sylvania, Philips E.H., RCA Mullard (very bright), Philips MiniWatt (high gain) and a Raytheon Blackplate (high gain). 

I'm probably going to start a NAD thread later today.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks, RR!...PM sent. 

edit: Come to think of it I believe Matt specifically said 6L6GC.


----------



## RiverRatt

It'll work with 6L6G's. I know... I sent him a couple


----------



## mickeydg5

Some cool information on this thread if you have not seen the links or site before.
It may be subjective but nice information nontheless.
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/45506-fyi-bias-setting-table-push-pull-class-ab-amp.html


----------



## RiverRatt

I did an Egnater Tweaker 15 power tube swap last night. I was running NOS Tung-Sol 5881's in it. I found a matched pair of 6K6GT tubes in my junk box and popped them in to see how they would sound. I was expecting a typical 6V6 tone, but they surprised me. They sounded really nice, and nothing like the other tubes I've tried in the amp. It was more of an airy EL34 tone with just a hint of the compression you'd get with 6V6's. I didn't completely crank the amp but I got it pretty loud and they held their own. I'm going to have to start looking for more of these.


----------



## mickeydg5

So would you say the 6K6 to a 6V6 is like an EL34 to a 6550?

How did the 6K6 sound compare to the 5881?

Cool information.


----------



## RiverRatt

Give me a little more time with them. I need to compare them to my 6V6's and see how they sound. My first impression was that they sounded like my KT66's sounded in the Tweaker.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found another pair of 6K6GT's on Saturday while we were out running around half the state. They test at 83 and 85 on the TV-7 with minimum good being 40. That's a pretty close match. I haven't tried them in place of the other pair. I got started with the new SG and Class 5 and it sounded too good. I just turned my mind off and played for about 2 hours on it. 

I did give the 6K6's a little playing time on Friday and got the amp cranked up a lot more and it made a big difference in tone. I still don't get the boxy & compressed tone like you get from 6V6GT's when you drive them hard. It's not nearly so light and airy as I first thought, either. I'm glad to have a few in my arsenal but I don't think they are going to qualify as a must-have tube for the Tweaker 15. 

Does anybody know their RCA 6L6 history well? I have four RCA 6L6's that I picked up at a little music shop that's on my way to Nashville. I have a pair of RCA 6L6GB's, one with black plates and one with gray, and I have a pair of RCA black plates marked 6L6GC. The 6L6GB's look identical in construction to a 6L6GC except for the color of the plates. The top mica is round and has two of the little mica spacers that are between the top disc and the glass. The getter is located at the bottom of these tubes with a little silver just showing above the tube base. These both test at 43 on my TV-7 tester, with 25 being minimum good. They also show to be very, very strong tubes.

The 6L6GC's are both black plates, the top mica doesn't have the extra support pieces. Instead, the top mica disc is wider and is the typical star-type mica. One of these tubes has a side-getter, the other has a bottom getter like the 6L6GB's. These test at a strong 40 and 44.

The main thing I want to know is if these tubes are all 6L6GC's? They would make an awesome quad but not if the GB's really are GB's. I believe one has the white RCA logo printed on the tube, and the other has a white RCA logo printed on the base. I'll try to follow up with some pics, but is there any way to use either a TV-7 or a Hickok to tell the difference between the different flavors of 6L6's? I've owned various 6L6G's, 6L6GA's, 6L6GB's, GC's, and a couple of 5932's and the test procedure is the same regardless of what 6L6 variety you use. I'll try to get pics tonight.


----------



## mickeydg5

All of the 6L6 variants have the same characteristics. That includes 5881, 5932, 7027 and 7581 types. At test levels, some testers indicate a little higher transconductance for the 7581s.

I have seen different style construction of 6L6 types and some do look the same or similar. But a GB ranges between 19-22 watt plate. A GC has 30 watt plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

So a GB would be closer to a 5881 than a 6L6GC, right? It doesn't matter with the Tweaker 15, it'll run about anything I have. That pair that I have sounds great in it. They aren't much different at all from the black plate 6L6GC's. 

Speaking of Tweaker 15's, I was going to do another report on the 6K6GT's. The "light and airy" tone went right out the window when I got to turn the amp up and hit the amp hard with the new SG. I kid you not, they sound like EL84's. I had the Tweaker and Class 5 going at the same time and the Marshall (Brit) setting on the Tweaker sounded a LOT like the Class 5. These things are pretty cheap. If you run across any, they are definitely worth picking up. Just FYI, I was using the blue strat the first time I tried the 6K6's, so it probably would have sounded different. Both guitars sounded good, just in different ways.

I'd never heard this before, but apparently the 6K6's are a popular "mod" for Fender's 6V6 amps. The 6K6 is supposed to work fine in place of the 6V6 and has roughly half the output power. This would be a fun tube to design a low watt fire-breather with. It would be cool to adapt a Marshall 18-watt to use these tubes. I'll bet they would kick all kinds of ass.

Matt, if you're hanging around, did I ever send you one of these to use in the CA10? If they'd work in it, there's a guy I'd like to hook up with one. I might have to send you one to make sure.


----------



## mickeydg5

I see some later 6L6GBs as more of a 5881. Earlier 6L6GB tubes may be beefed up 6L6Gs and still 19W plate. I would think that they will compress and distort more when pushed as compared to GC's.

The 6K6 tubes as compared to 6V6 types have ~30% less amplification factor and twice the plate resistance. So yes, you will end up with less power swapping for 6K6 tubes. Same with these, they may compress and distort more when pushed as compared to 6V6's.


----------



## nedcronin

Hey guys, is it completely necessary to have a matched pair of tubes in a cathode biased amp? For example my TT? I completely by chance bumped into a guy with boxes of NOS tubes. I want to buy some EL84's but he can't match them. What will happen if I run un matched tubes in this amp?


----------



## mickeydg5

nedcronin said:


> Hey guys, is it completely necessary to have a matched pair of tubes in a cathode biased amp? For example my TT? I completely by chance bumped into a guy with boxes of NOS tubes. I want to buy some EL84's but he can't match them. What will happen if I run un matched tubes in this amp?


 
Yes it is always good to try to match power tubes (for push-pull).
The Orange TT from what I understand already has an unbalanced PI. Further unbalance may not be so good. Ask Orange???


----------



## nedcronin

Great idea!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Ned, it is hard to say. I had a Peavey MACE that was cathode biased and I was in the service when the I felt it was time to replace the OE Slyvania 6L6GC tubes. I knew the Sgt. over in the parts department and he gave me (6) new Sylvania tubes. I slapped them in the amp and it worked fine. I later tested the OE Sylvania's and they all tested at 90-91. The military Sylvania's tested at around 88 to 92.

In the 50's, a matched set could be off by as much as 25 percent!

My opinion nowadays is that you should try and keep the power tubes as closely matched as possible in a cathode biased amp.


----------



## nedcronin

Marty you know your stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, check out the 5881 sale in the classifieds:

http://www.marshallforum.com/member-classifieds/45759-quartet-5881s.html#post681614

What are those? The seller says they are from a JCM900. I've seen those micas before; they look like what GE was using on their later production tubes. I have a couple of pairs of GE 6L6GC's that have that same mica spacer.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Hey guys, check out the 5881 sale in the classifieds:
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/member-classifieds/45759-quartet-5881s.html#post681614
> 
> What are those? The seller says they are from a JCM900. I've seen those micas before; they look like what GE was using on their later production tubes. I have a couple of pairs of GE 6L6GC's that have that same mica spacer.


 
I thought they look Chinese even though the mica spacers look like (similar) GE.
This was on "stock Marshall tube codes" under the Workbench
VLVE-00083 5881/6L6WGC Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo replaces VLVE-00006


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think they were original tubes for a 1990's JCM900 - The tubes appeared to have a 2010 date code. The mica spacers are what caught my eye. I've never seen that style anywhere except on a GE tube. I believe that Shuguang is capable of producing tubes that are on-par with some of the best NOS designs. They just don't seem to be motivated to do so. From what I've gathered from several OEM pickups and tubes made in China, you get back what you put in. I've read in more than one place that the Chinese pickups that are sold under the GFS brand, Ironstone, etc. are all made in the same factory, but vary greatly in quality depending on how much the seller wants to spend on them. I bought a set of alnico V strat pickups from Ironstone in the UK and they were very nice pickups - easily the equal to Fender's Tex-Mex pickups if not better.


----------



## mickeydg5

I noticed the 26/10 on them. This may be special order stuff. Check this picture out.


----------



## mickeydg5

A better picture.







Has anyone ever tried TAD and have experience with them or tried these tubes? It seems they are calling this tube a GE style black plate, 6L6WGC. Marshall's tubes look the same from what I can tell and are labeled 5881.


----------



## RiverRatt

There was some talk on here way back when about Groove Tubes making a USA GE 6L6GC. That was about when Myles Rose left GT. He posted a lot of stuff back then on The Gear Page forum about Groove Tubes. I don't know how much of it was spite and how much was true, but I don't recall him being a BS'er. That was when they had just released the excellent xF2 EL34M clone that Shuguang was making for GT. They also released a Mullard I63 12AX7 clone that promised to be NOS quality. Myles posted that the 12AX7's sounded great but they couldn't produce them without an astronomical failure rate. I think they were counting on the success of their Mullard clones to fund the GE 6L6 project. I think it faded away before it ever made it into full production. Again Myles posted about cost and a high failure rate being an issue. I remember seeing them listed on the GT website for awhile in the classic GE orange and gray box. AFAIK they were never offered for sale.


----------



## mickeydg5

How long ago was that? I look in at GT stuff every once in a while but never kept up with who or what behind the doors. I do know that Groove Tubes does have a GE reproduction which is their "flagship" 6L6 but looks a bit different than the TAD and Marshalls above.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that Myles Rose left Groove Tubes in 2009. I tried to get on the Gear Page forums but either I used a username and password that I can't remember, signed up with an email address that I no longer use, or they've deleted my account. If Joe is hanging around, he was on there back around the same time. Marty should remember as well. We discussed all this in that thread.

There was a great post by Myles where he was talking about the real life expectancy of NOS and current production tubes, not what they are rated at but the actual real-world figures. He was pretty hard on the current production stuff. I wish I could remember the numbers, but there was a huge difference - something along the lines of over 5,000 hours for NOS EL34's and around 1,500 hours for current production. There are some posts on the preamp tube thread where we were talking about all this but good luck finding it. 

I've seen that 6L6GC that you are talking about. I've never really gotten into the current production 6L6 tubes because the old ones are still fairly plentiful and nowhere near as expensive as EL34's or anything with KT in the name. I have several pairs of old 6L6GC's that are used but test strong. You ever noticed how a 6L6GC tends to drop down into the 80% to 90% range fairly early in its life, but it may stay in that range for decades? I look for those tubes. It may be a placebo effect, but I think they mellow out and sound better when they hit that point. I'm not interested in high-gain diamondplate amps that use 6L6's though - I like more of a big, round, warm Fender tone and that's what my 6L6GC collection is good at.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

mickeydg5 said:


> A better picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone ever tried TAD and have experience with them or tried these tubes? It seems they are calling this tube a GE style black plate, 6L6WGC. Marshall's tubes look the same from what I can tell and are labeled 5881.






These are the tubes i'm running in my 6100 right now , and i love them !!
i have tried many other brands over the years , some good , some bad , but these kick ass hands down ! For me , and the type of tunes i play , these are the best tube i have run in my 6100!


My preamps are a mix of Tung Sols & Meas's !


----------



## mickeydg5

I thought Myles Rose may have done something in 2009. I looked around and found this.
Guitar Amplifier Blueprinting
index2

I have seen in specifications where some old stock tubes were claimed to last 8000-10000 hours at absolute ratings. I think most of them claimed average 5000-10000 hours but do not quote me on that.

I would hope current production to last up to 2000 hours average.

I have not really compared too many 6L6 types. But I do have an old stock pair of Sylvania 6L6WGBs with micanol bases (late 60s-early 70s) that measure around 84% that breakup nicely and shake the walls. I tend to agree, I think OS tubes level out and hang around for a long time.


----------



## kilsin

is there a tube chart for dummys? 

like this tube is bright, this tube is dark and compressed type thing.

and also seems like some tubes can give an amp more headroom or less.

i bought a tweaker 15w and it seems the tubes can be swapped without biasing. would like maximum headroom. going to try to use this amp with the band. have been using a 1987x that i don't ever get to turn up, sick of using pedals for overdrive.


----------



## kilsin

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXRhWqNlcNs]Power Tube Comparison - YouTube[/ame]

kinda cool.


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats on the Tweaker 15, it's one badass little amp, but I'm afraid you may be expecting things from it that it can't do. Try it out at practice and don't be afraid to hit it with what pedals you have. It's not going to hurt your sound, just augment in it. It can get pretty loud, but I don't know what you're up against with the rest of the band. It may or may not be able to keep up.

When you use different power tubes in the Tweaker 15, they will pretty much have their characteristic sound, but it's still a 15 watt amp and you're not going to get a ton of headroom with it no matter what power tubes you're using. They will still break up and sound pretty much like they would in an amp they were designed for, but at a lower volume. That's what makes the Tweaker sound so good with so many different tubes. 

The other problem is that you want maximum headroom but you're sick of using pedals for overdrive. You only have four options for overdrive/distortion: preamp tube distortion, phase inverter clipping, power tube distortion, and clipping diode/pedal distortion. The Tweaker can do the first three with no help from a pedal, you just have to get it loud as hell, same with any tube amp. It's just personal preference, but I like to get the Tweaker loud enough that the power tubes are starting to break up, I usually keep the gain control set on Clean but turned up about 2/3 or more to help push the phase inverter hard, and I like to use a pedal to hit the front end of the amp to boost the signal a little more to make it sing. There's a creamy sustain that you can get with pedals that is harder to get with an amp alone. Hell, Hendrix used pedals. I can't find any fault with his tone, live or in the studio.

Check out this clip from Brian May's Star Licks video from the 1980's. He really does a great job of demonstrating how the right pedal can enhance the sound of an amplifier, in this case a Dallas Rangemaster Treble Booster into a pair of Vox AC30's. It's an easy to build pedal, and there are schematics and layout diagrams all over the internet for it in some form or another. There's a great DIY project that's called the Brian May Treble Booster.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlP06xycVAc]Brian May Star Licks Master Class Equipment - YouTube[/ame]

There's not a power tube out there that makes an Egnater Tweaker 15 sound bad, at least not one that I've found, but there are some that sound better than others for a particular situation. For a tube that sounds great no matter which setting, score a pair of Russian military 6P3S tubes off eBay. They are my all-time favorite power tubes in the Tweaker. I also like 6L6's in any of the versions they were made in (G, GA, GB, GC). The old 6L6G's are huge tubes and they have a hot, compressed sound that is hard to beat. EL34's sound great with a Strat but not so good with humbuckers. 

You may have noticed that the grille on the top of the Tweaker 15 is located directly above the power tubes. That's not just there for cooling - you can remove the grille to use tubes that are too tall to use otherwise. The 6L6G's are probably the tallest tubes I've used in mine and they fit perfectly. I don't think I've had the back screen or top screen on mine since the week I bought it.

I'm a little low on tubes right now, but I have a few pairs of 6K6, 6V6, 6L6GB and 6L6GC, and I think that's about it except maybe for a pair of Chinese EL34's. If you want to try only one set, get the Russian 6P3S tubes first. I have yet to find someone who didn't like them A LOT in the Tweaker 15. There's usually a date code on them. Look for ones made in the 1970's - IMO these are the best. They can sound like an EL34 on the Brit setting, and still do lush Fender tones on the USA setting. The Vx setting can get brutal with these tubes. Forget Vox - this channel sounds a LOT like a dual-rectifier if you scoop the mids a little and use the HOT setting on the gain control.


----------



## kilsin

Riveratt, thanks for the response and the sweet Brian May clip. I have not been able to try the amp with the band yet, it still needs power tubes. hoping the 15w tweaker may be just enough to keep up with the drummer for this band. 


thanks for all the power tube recommendations. the 6P3S tubes do sound great in your description, maybe i'll try those. i may have given the wrong impression in my previous post. i'm really not looking for tons of clean headroom. even with a lot of overdrive or gain i can usually roll of the volume on the guitar to get a cleaner tone suitable for my needs. i was just under the impression that some power tubes were a touch louder than others, thought i'd take advantage of that due to my situation. i guess that is not the case though. 


since i need power tubes anyways figured i'd investigate my options. this power amp tube thread is a bit overwhelming in length for me, as far as a crash course in tube basics goes. i am reading through it though when i can.

i really wish the egnater tweaker line had something in between the 15w and the 40w. i love how simply the 15w is layed out with minimal switches. buying the 40w was just too close to the 50w 1987x i already own as far as power goes. i really wanted to try a bigger decrease in power between the two amps. the 1987x has too much power, i'm never able to get it really cookin', so i rely on pedals to push it into overdrive at moderate volumes. i'm always asked to turn it down when i get into overdriven power amp goodness .


i have no problem using pedals, i just would like to simplify my pedal board . always wanted to try a treble booster also, it may work well with my 1987x.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello fellas. I just got my Internet service back up today. I'm about 75 percent moved in. Still have some boxes to sort out the contents. My garage is full of cardboard boxes. I picked a great year to move with all this record heat in Oklahoma. I really love my new place and it is in a super location. I have three grocery stores just a few blocks away. Muskogee is easy to get around in. The hardest thing was getting in the the Highway Patrol for a background check. You have to get a BG check before they will issue you a driver's license. My tags were dirt cheap. Kansas was killing me. 

Anyway, the tube business is back up and running. I will try to spend a little more time over here, but I am still busy with other stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

I mentioned these in the preamp tube thread - mainly because of the GE 6201 (21AT7) I found. A friend picked up a $10 shoebox of tubes for me at an auction. I found the 6201, an RCA 6V6GT, an RCA 6L6GC black plate and a CBS 6L6GB that looks suspiciously like a GE-labeled Tung-Sol 5881. What do you guys think? Ever seen anything like it?


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen CGE/GE tubes which are very much like Tung-sol. I have never found a description of a relationship between the companies. CGE did manufacture their own tubes. Most of these CGE/GE parts are almost all identical to those of Tung-sol. Some CGE/GE tubes do have differences. I can only speculate but suspect there may have been contracts between the companies for parts and manufacture. I have seen 188-5 on both GE and CGE tubes.

I wish I could find more information. Oh well.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have an identical pair of 5881's that came out of the same Bogen hi-fi with one labeled GE and the other labeled Tung-Sol. The GE is marked 188-5 which IIRC is Owensboro, KY and has a date stamp of 5-04. The Tung-Sol is marked 3225652-3. I kid you not, they are identical. Even the pattern of the three top getter flashes is identical. I suppose it's possible that GE and Tung-Sol could have made identical tubes given the same tooling and materials but it makes more sense that Tung-Sol made them both. I read in some book about the 5881's all being made by Tung-Sol exclusively as the design was proprietary. You know how books are... if you accept all as fact, you can prove or disprove anything. 

My main concern with the new tube is that is an actual 5881 and not an older 19 watt design that came earlier. The base has the number 6148 on it vertically and that's it other than the CBS logo.

It's kinda strange that we were just talking about the similarity between the 6L6GB and the 5881 and I go out and find the missing link.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think you are right. Maybe GE USA and Canada had contracts with Tungsol for their tubes and some may have been special order tubes. That does make more sense.

I have also seen RCA 6L6GB that were branded Tung-sol with the 322 number.

The Tungsol was the only 22 watt plate and 2.8 watt screen 6L6GB. That makes it almost a 5881.
I believe everyone else was 19 watt plate and 2.5 watt screen.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would say that the 5881's are both Tung-Sol's and one is relabeled GE. This sort of practice went hand in hand with the tube manufacturers. I always get a laugh when I see someone selling RCA 8417's. RCA never made an 8417.


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone been looking for any Russian 6P3S tubes? I was thinking about ordering a batch and almost everyone is selling them in pairs or quads. Not a year ago, you could get them in a decent quantity for $3 to $4 a tube, including the shipping charges. I'm not buying 50 of them, I just want maybe ten or twenty tubes but they would barely pay for themselves now. I was selling the last batch at $20 a pair, which I thought was a decent price considering I'm the one who had to eat the cost of the bad ones.

I'd like to try the 6P6S as well. They are supposed to be a drop-in replacement for 6V6GT's. Has anyone here tried those?


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Talk to me about KT66 for my 6100 ?

Marshall Mann swears they are the shit ! nothing better ! 

And i must say , he's got me interested , I have not run these ever in my 6100 ...


----------



## RiverRatt

If you needed a pair instead of a quad, I'd send them to you along with that Metal Zone to mod. I'm no good at it. I tried to replace two resistors in my TS-9 last night and now it doesn't work anymore. The new green LED works, but no sound at all. I gotta check the solder pads and see if I bridged something. I don't see how I could have screwed anything else up.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

RiverRatt said:


> If you needed a pair instead of a quad, I'd send them to you along with that Metal Zone to mod. I'm no good at it. I tried to replace two resistors in my TS-9 last night and now it doesn't work anymore. The new green LED works, but no sound at all. I gotta check the solder pads and see if I bridged something. I don't see how I could have screwed anything else up.





I'm going to assume you were modding to " 808 " spec ?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, and I thought I was really careful. I used a soldering braid to get the old solder off the pads, pulled the old resistors out easily, put the new ones in, soldered them then trimmed them, then I went back over each pad I messed with and re-flowed the solder. I'm going to open it up and make sure I didn't accidentally pull a wire loose.


----------



## RiverRatt

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Talk to me about KT66 for my 6100 ?
> 
> Marshall Mann swears they are the shit ! nothing better !
> 
> And i must say , he's got me interested , I have not run these ever in my 6100 ...



Check out this site - this was posted in another thread here. They have one quad of Genalex Gold Lion KT66's for $83. That is a really good price for a quad. These came installed in my Vintage Modern head that I got from BluesRocker and they are good-sounding tubes. I've tried these, Shuguangs and Tung-Sols. They were all pretty good tubes. I think the Tung-Sols were well-built, but the Shuguangs and the Gold Lions sounded more true to the KT66 tone. Don't get me wrong, the Tung-Sols were good-sounding tubes. I thought they were a little more like a 6550 than a KT66 though. You can get a quad of the Tung-Sol tubes for $75.


----------



## iron broadsword

What do you guys think about the Sovtek 6L6WXT+? Will soon be shopping for a new quad in my JCM900 DR, and apparently these offer earlier breakup. That'd be a nice feature for me!

I've been using Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR's and I love the tone but I am not attached to it.. not to mention that they are quite expensive.


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## RiverRatt

I like the Sovtek 5881WXT better. It comes stock in a lot of Fender 6L6GC amps. This is NOT the same tube as the old Tung-Sol 5881's. 

These 5881WXT's are beefed up considerably, to the point that they are a direct sub for a 6L6GC and may even be able to handle more voltage on the plates. I read so much stuff that it all runs together. They are a 30 watt dissipation tube, same as the 6L6GC. I've had two different Fender amps with these tubes and they do nicely.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

RiverRatt said:


> Check out this site - this was posted in another thread here. They have one quad of Genalex Gold Lion KT66's for $83. That is a really good price for a quad. These came installed in my Vintage Modern head that I got from BluesRocker and they are good-sounding tubes. I've tried these, Shuguangs and Tung-Sols. They were all pretty good tubes. I think the Tung-Sols were well-built, but the Shuguangs and the Gold Lions sounded more true to the KT66 tone. Don't get me wrong, the Tung-Sols were good-sounding tubes. I thought they were a little more like a 6550 than a KT66 though. You can get a quad of the Tung-Sol tubes for $75.



I don't see a link or mention of any site ??
Thanks RR !


----------



## mickeydg5

I think he was talking about this site, going out of business sale.
KT66 tubes : TubeBuilders.com guitar and audio tubes, North American Distributor Dealer of Winged -C- SED tubes, PM, Golden Dragon, Winged -C- SED and Svetlana guitar and audio tubes.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

mickeydg5 said:


> I think he was talking about this site, going out of business sale.
> KT66 tubes : TubeBuilders.com guitar and audio tubes, North American Distributor Dealer of Winged -C- SED tubes, PM, Golden Dragon, Winged -C- SED and Svetlana guitar and audio tubes.









Thanks !!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, sorry about that... Thanks for having my back Mickey. I think I posted that on my iPhone and I screw up stuff like that because I can't preview the entire post at once. Well, maybe if I had a magnifying glass. My eyes are getting bad and I can't see well without help. Nothing wrong with them other than that they are getting old. I can see fine if something is about 18" in front of me, like an average computer monitor distance. It's going to get to the point that my arms aren't long enough for me to see what I'm holding.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

I went to that site , and there all sold out of the cheap/bargain KT66 !


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## RiverRatt

I got a quad of JJ E34L's from them to keep as a backup for my Ampeg. I don't like not having a spare set of power tubes. The JJ's aren't my first choice, but for $36 a quad, I couldn't pass it up.

I've been going through those old tubes and I've run across several 6AW5 pentodes. They look like some close cousin of a 6L6GC. Anybody had any experience with these? I've been digging through tubes all evening and I haven't had a chance to look anything up.


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## mickeydg5

6AW5, are you sure? That is a rectifier.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I screwed up. It's a 6AV5/6FW5.


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## mickeydg5

Its a pentode but different, 6CK pinout and 11 watt plate. Looked them up, they seem to go for less than $5.


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## RiverRatt

They look like they should be monsters - like a shorter, more rugged Sylvania-style 6L6GC. I read on some websites where the Hi-Fi crowd were getting into them as low powered amplifiers. Officially they are categorized as a sweep tube.


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## mickeydg5

Yeap, deflection tubes. I do not know much about them. I looked it up a little and see where people have been testing and using them in low output audio applications.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone know anything about 6Y6G tubes? I have a JAN pair that appear to be good, but when I test them on my TV-7, they test fine for a second, then the fuse lamp lights up like Christmas and the needle pegs past 120. I think they are good tubes but I'm afraid to try them with the tester behaving that way.


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## MartyStrat54

The 6Y6G was designed to put out around 3 to 6 watts with low voltage on the plates. It is a true power tube designed for audio applications. Most applications calls for around 135VDC on the plates (max is 200). Max dissipation is 12.5 watts @ 200VDC.

Looks like it was made in October 1961.

6Y6G datasheet and application note, data sheet, circuit, pdf, cross reference | Datasheet Archive


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## RiverRatt

I'm really trying to decide if it's worth a try in the Tweaker head. I'm thinking not. My Class 5 redplated with that Telefunken EL84 in it last night. I don't know what that was about. I put in a Heerlen, Holland tube and it was fine.


----------



## mickeydg5

A 6Y6 that lights the lamp and pegs the meter. No shorts? Maybe a wrong control or button. It can happen.

If the EL84 checks out good make sure it is getting proper contact in the amplifier socket. Wiggle it? I have seen this happen because of gunk on the pins. Well something to look at anyway.


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## RiverRatt

Nothing wrong with my settings, unless the manual is wrong. The only difference between these and any other 6_6 settings is that Pin 1 is suppressed.


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## mickeydg5

Check the pins on that too. I do not go dumpster diving but have gotten my hands on some groddy tubes where I had to spray, scrap and scrub the pins.


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## RiverRatt

These are pristine - both were in boxes and one is a JAN GE that was still wrapped in that strange brown military packing material. I tested them on my Hickok and they tested at 5750 and 7000 with 5000 being new. They still took a while to stabilize, and the line fuse lamp came on too.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not know. ??? The bias is set fairly low when testing a 6Y6. Weird.


----------



## mickeydg5

Freak out on this one!
Genalex Collection Gold Lion - KT88 (6550), KT77, KT66, B759 (12AX7), U709, U77 | eBay


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Tube Porn, as some like to see vintage glass. These are 2 mullard EL84's I have installed in my DSL201 combo. They have a much fuller, crisper bass than the EI stock valves.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dang Spirit, that one on the right looks to be collector-grade. Good score! What are the codes? It looks like B7B on the left one but there may be a 4th digit that I can't see.


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## RiverRatt

I robbed the RFT EL34's from the Ampeg and put two them in the new JTM60 combo. Unbelievable tone! I've got an MC1 Mullard in V1 and an Amperex in V2. I'm not sure exactly what the preamp tubes do in this amp I'm assuming that V3 is the tone stack driver/cathode follower and that V4 is the PI. I don't know where the first four gain stages are going to. If anybody has a JTM610 and knows what the V1 and V2 slots do, let me know. I can't find anything.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

will schematics help?

JTM Schematics | Pleximods.com

the thumbs come up blank for me, but click on them & they show up


----------



## Dogs of Doom

mickeydg5 said:


> Freak out on this one!
> Genalex Collection Gold Lion - KT88 (6550), KT77, KT66, B759 (12AX7), U709, U77 | eBay


http://theroiovault.**********.org/images/smilies/drool.gif


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I'm not sure exactly what the preamp tubes do in this amp I'm assuming that V3 is the tone stack driver/cathode follower and that V4 is the PI. I don't know where the first four gain stages are going to. If anybody has a JTM610 and knows what the V1 and V2 slots do, let me know. I can't find anything.


Yes, V3 is cathode follower to the tone stacks and V4 is the PI. V1 is split one side for clean and other side for OD and HiGain. V2 provides stages for the OD and HG circuits.

If you go to DrTube, look under the JTM610, and pull up both schematics it can all be seen along with a block diagram on the preamp sheet.


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## RiverRatt

Thanks Mickey. I'm not the best at reading schematics. I'll check those out. I don't know which circuit they designed this preamp around, but whatever it is it kicks ass.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Dang Spirit, that one on the right looks to be collector-grade. Good score! What are the codes? It looks like B7B on the left one but there may be a 4th digit that I can't see.



Looks like B1B1 or maybe B7B1? Also seems to have KM1 above it, I'd have to pull them out to be sure and I really can't be bothered .

Seems a whole lot easier to pick up cheaper EL84s than EL34s these days, decent EL34s are way to expensive and everyone's onto them so very few bargains to be got.


----------



## RiverRatt

That sounds about right. It looks like B1B1 to me as well. That translates to the Blackburn factory, the first week of February in 1961. kM is one of the EL84 type codes. 1 is the revision number. Nice glass!

I have a quad of RFT EL34's that are used but still test as new and match up really close. It's tempting to put them up for sale, but they sound too good to part with. I'm using one pair in the JTM60 and keeping the other two as spares, just in case one pair fails during my once or twice a year gigs. I guess I need to rotate them each month so they wear evenly 

The time to buy EL34's is when I'm selling them. I lucked into a quad of NOS NIB Mullard xF2 EL34's (single getter). I think they sold for $318. Before I listed mine, they were selling for over $100 per tube. A NOS matched quad is even harder to find, so I was hoping for a big score. Now I wish I'd kept them. I could have used them for the next 10 or 20 years and still have sold them for a ridiculous price.


----------



## solarburn

Alan...when the hell did you get a JTM? Those can sound fantastic man. Lucky.

I'd kill for those XF2's for my JMP now...LOL


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## RiverRatt

I got the JTM a couple of weeks ago. You should hear it. It's like a plexi on channel 1 and a JCM800 on channel 2. It's 60 watts but very controllable. I love it. IMO it's the best sounding Marshall I've had. I've got it and the Class 5 and they are killer together.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got the JTM a couple of weeks ago. You should hear it. It's like a plexi on channel 1 and a JCM800 on channel 2. It's 60 watts but very controllable. I love it. IMO it's the best sounding Marshall I've had. I've got it and the Class 5 and they are killer together.



Epic tones in those. Lucky sum bitch!

How much or was it a trade?


----------



## RiverRatt

I traded that red Ibanez Destroyer and $100 for it. A friend of mine had it in his store and it sat for a month with no lookers. I just happened to see it on his website and pounced on it. Since I had practically nothing invested in the Ibanez it worked out great. I've seen the Millenium Destroyers as low as $150 on eBay. This one did have a new EMG 81/85 set in it though.


----------



## solarburn

Too cool man. So how bout some crunch clips when you can...

Great score!


----------



## healaras

are power tubes play role in the tone of the amp?
or they only control bass and power section?


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## RiverRatt

I can tell a definite difference in both the tone and the way the amp responds. If tubes are running cold, the amp will sound thin and harsh. Too hot and it's muddy and lacks definition. IMO there's about a 2mV (or mA, whatever) range where you get the warm tone and deep bass but the notes are more defined and have what I've always heard called note bloom, where the note sustains long enough that it loses the brightness and slight change in pitch from the pick attack and you get a more smooth sustain and more harmonic content. If you listen to the Beatles, check out the last chord of "Revolution" and the way the 3rd harmonic sustains and has a really warm, thick tone. 

I think that you can make most power tubes, current production or NOS, sound really good if you fine tune by ear. When you do the math and find the 70% of maximum dissipation value for your amp, start at about 60% and adjust the bias a little toward the 70% number while playing through the amp (put down the guitar when you're working inside the amp!). Listen to the change in tone as the bias voltage goes up. You'll know you've hit the sweet spot when you can shake the walls with a palm mute but still hear your lead lines clearly. I think this is more important in a Marshall power amp circuit than most other amps. Just like changing preamp tubes for the best tone, it's equally important to set the bias correctly for your amp. If you change the bias all the way to the 70% mark and don't find a good tone, you might need to try a different set of tubes or have your amp looked at.

Or all this may be bullshit. I'm stoned and tired. It's way past bedtime.


----------



## mickeydg5

I must agree with RR and think most people will like their amplifiers biased between 55% - 65%. Use your ears for final judgement. A good listening while biasing will balance your bass and harmonic tone to your liking. If at all possible be there if you have a technician doing the final bias, its your amplifier! 

Also, I recieved a copy of the latest 2013 AES catalog. Nice and good for referencing or buying all the basic and most needed parts.


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought a $3 switch and now I get Mouser catalogs. You could kill an elk with one of those.


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## mickeydg5

Yes, Mouser is bad with that. I remember a year I had bought some stuff and got three catalogs in less than one year. Do they even keep track of their list???

Walking tall! (with a Mouser catalog in hand)


----------



## MM54

I have two mouser catalogs and a digikey catalog at home. Takes up half the closet and never get used haha.


----------



## Paul_Player66

In my experience NOS make a BIG difference in VINTAGE amps and SOME NEW amps… but not all…
In my vintage Marshall I find for power tubes Ei and RFT EL-34 are the way to go. In my vintage Fender amps 6L6 GC made by RCA or Sylvania are the way to go. For preamps tubes, my vintage Marshall’s sound best (to my ear) with Amperex bugle boy in the V1 position and RFT and Ei in V2 and V3. The Amperex really make the harmonics JUMP OUT like no other tube. For my Fenders I use Sylvanias, RCA GE, as well as Amperex. I do have some Mullards and Telefunkens, and they sound great, but so far I am not really using them in any of the amps I have.
For newer amps (1990 and beyond) I find some it makes a difference in some and others not so much… My Boogies have all liked Boogie tubes (most made in china and rebranded for Boogie), my Marshall high gain MK III sound best with JJ power tubes and I am still working out the preamp section… it came with Groove tubes, but I do not like them so much, I have been trying different RCA and Amperex in it. My Egnator Tweaker likes RCA and Sylvania Preamps much better than the EH12ax7’s it came with! I really did not like the Ruby power tubes it came with and it sounds much better with RCA 6V6 (black plate) which are tight and focused. Sometimes I have used GE 5881 for the power tubes and it really opens it up.
I tried to get away using the Electro Harmonix 12ax7 or some Ruby 12ax7 for the Tweakers effects loop, thinking it would not matter much… IT DID. For a test I used a lexicon rack M300 reverb and tried a delay, a reverb and chorus. With the newer tubes it made it sound harsh and brought out a very digital sound, but the NOS tubes made the Delay sound like a analog or tape echo. It made the reverb and chorus much more lush, If you do not use your loop, then do not worry about it.

You have to buy and try a bunch out yourself! Get and many spares as possible as when they are gone, that’s it!!!
Also when I say RCA I mean short plate, long plate, grey plate, black plate… I have many different types of RCA as well as GE, Sylvania and they are all good, but different. Again try them all and build a stash!!!

Hope this helps someone…


----------



## RiverRatt

Paul, you're exactly right about modern amps. I think the reason NOS doesn't make a difference in some modern amps is because the circuit was tuned to compensate for the shortfalls of current production tubes. Marty ran into this problem with an amp once. I keep a lot of Shuguangs in reserve. They do have their uses. Why spend a great tone tube in an amp that can't take advantage of it?

Guys, I seem to be going through a rectifier deficiency. What would be the closest sub for a 5AR4/GZ34? I just need something to use long enough to verify that the problem is indeed with the 5AR4 that's currently in my amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Paul, that's a nice B and K 707 you have.

Thanks for your comments.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a mint Mullard 5AR4/GZ34. However, it will cost a lot more than the 83.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a mint Mullard 5AR4/GZ34. However, it will cost a lot more than the 83.



I'm sure it will cost more. Like I said, I've sold a few of those myself. I know what they bring on eBay. I'll bite the bullet if I have to, but I took the Chinese 5AR4 out and tested it on my TV-7. It reads 50/52 with a minimum good of 40/40, yet when it's in the circuit I get lots of noise and the tube even flashes violet occasionally. I've changed out everything else that I can except the rectifier. It has to be the problem but why does it test so high? Should I be looking at the power transformer instead?


----------



## mickeydg5

The 5AR4 seems to be shorting or arcing. That could be bad or worn element(s). Is the socket ok?
What amplifier is it? You can temporarily try a number of rectifier tubes, but most likely none permanently. Which do you have available?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's that new B-52 amp. I put some new pre and power amp tubes in it and started noticing the "wind" noise like I had a bad 12AX7. It got really bad so I put the old tubes back in. That helped some, but it started doing it worse after awhile. I put the original power tubes back in and when I flipped the switch it blew the mains fuse. I replaced that and it's running now but sounds like ass. I switched the setting over to the Solid-State rectifier and it didn't make any difference. How could a tube swap do all this?


----------



## mickeydg5

Alan, which B-52? I could not find a mention of the amplifier.
Some of those have their power supplies set up a little different, normal but different.
If the problems occur with either the tube rect or ss rect then it is something else, hopefully not the PT.

A schematic is needed and you may want this topic in a different thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, the rectifier is still getting power even on the solid-state setting. I don't know for sure yet, but I still think it's the rectifier tube. I have 5Y3GT's, plenty of 5U4GB's, big RCA 5R4's and possibly a 5V4. There are a few others but I'm really not 100% sure what all I have. That'll take some digging. My understanding is that the 5U4GB should sub for it but it draws over twice the heater current as a 5AR4.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, the big drawback to the 5U4 substitution is the filament current, 3.0 vs 1.9. If the amplifier PT can handle it though its not a problem.
The 5V4 is close enough for a temporary substitute but has 30% less output current, no cranking.

Was the rect tube pulled when trying the solid state mode?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope, but I tried it with a 5U4GB and nothing. No better than before. I started pulling power tubes and found that one of the 5881WXT's had a broken guide pin and was oriented all wrong in the socket. Definitely a "Duh" moment. Now I have to track down and see what kind of damage was done.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh boy, sorry to hear that.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I believe the amp is smarter than I am. I posted over in my WOW thread in the "Other Amps" section that I fixed the amp. All it took was a new HT fuse. Just FYI it has 430V on the plates and I ended up biasing the Sovtek 5881WXT's at around 42-43mV and it sounds great. Here's the innards:


----------



## mickeydg5

The chassis has a clean layout. I noticed that B-52s have quite a few fuses incorporated, that is good.

That is a good bias on the WXTs; about 60%, good information for Sovtek 6L6 types.

Get an old or bad octal tube and dremel the guide pin off, smooth and plane the circular edges of the pin and good tube base, then superglue it to the good tube base. Caution, do not get or leave glue on the pins. I have done this on a few octals and holds with no problems. Just to note, I am always careful with the wiggling while removing tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm careful with octal bases, too. I'm not following you entirely on replacing the pin though. I couldn't plane the base on the good tube because the exhaust tip is covered by the guide pin and sticks out like .25" past the base.

I though the B-52 layout was pretty slick, too. Compared to my old DSL, it's a work of art. With the DSL, I had to remove boards, wires, potentiometers, etc. just to be able to see the board I needed to work on. The B-52 has everything laid out so that it's all visible and very handy for quick voltage checks. The wiring is for the most part very tidy and out of the way. I haven't looked at the power supply filter board carefully, but it looks like they used smaller caps with higher capacitance and lower voltage. If they are all wired in series, the capacitance is halved but you use the sum of the voltage. The two 100uf/250v caps on that board would equal one cap at 50uf/500v. It's a pretty cool way to use smaller caps to save space but still provide the necessary filter ranges.

I should have taken a picture of the PT. Someone in my OTHER AMPS thread said that many components in the B-52 are under-spec. The transformer in that amp is HUGE! I kid you not, it's about double the size of a 100w Dagnall transformer. I still think it's a good amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

I should not have said anything about "plane".
I meant if you do not have the broken guide piece, to get another one, eyeball the cuts, grinding the base and tip flat/smooth (tip around the exhaust tip) with a good cutting tip. Match up the replacement and glue together.

I forgot or was not thinking about the fact that you probably still have the broken guide pin in which case that should just match up and you can super glue them together. Super glue seems to hold the pins I have fixed fairly well. Just do not hang a little person from the guide pin, do not trust that test. 

Yes, the B-52 layout is tidy, with quite a few little chips.
If the OT is heavy I would consider that robust.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the pin was missing all along. There's not enough room inside the socket for it to go anywhere. I'll give your idea a try. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I have superglued a couple of pins back on the tubes they came from and they never came off again. If I'd caught the broken pin before I put the tube back in the amp I would have lined it up by sight. It's easy, just center the keyway in the socket between pins 1 and 8 on the tube. That's what I usually do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Octal Tube Keyway Replacement | Antique Electronic Supply LLC


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Octal Tube Keyway Replacement | Antique Electronic Supply LLC



I have a couple of those that were on a pair of Tung-Sol 5881's I got from a guy. I had no idea they were $10 each! I think I'll try either MickeyDG5's suggestion or just keep lining them up the way I always do. That, and check the base of the tube and make sure the guide pin isn't broken off before I put them in the amp. 

I could see using them to increase the value of an otherwise good set of power tubes, but that's an extra $20 tacked on to the price per pair in the case of my Tung-Sols. It seems like those brown bases that Tung-Sol used are more prone to breaking than other brands, at least judging by the tubes I've had. The only one I've broken myself was a big RCA 5R4 coke bottle tube that had a brown base.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think those keyway replacements come 4 to a pack for $10.
I have seen on ebay 6 for $10.

I mostly see broken pins on micanol/brown base tubes too. Coincidence?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It makes you wonder what the "guy" did trying to take the tube out of the socket. Maybe he was a chicken choker. I mean you have to get mean to break off an index pin.


----------



## RiverRatt

That 5R4 sure didn't take much force to break. It wasn't tight in the socket, and I didn't have to rock it back and forth hardly at all, it just snapped like a dry twig.


----------



## mickeydg5

It could have been previously cracked. Maybe???

The only pin I have ever broken was not due to a tube pull. I had a chassis setup for testing with cords on the floor, well guess, I pulled a cord with my foot and before I could turn the chassis rolled. I checked everything and upon pulling tubes found a broken pin. It was a brown base octal. I was able to just retrieve the pin and glue it back onto the base. I make sure not to duplicate the stupidity. 

My habit is to wiggle slightly and easy making sure the tube is loose and then pull straight out.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think mine had a similar accident. This goes way back to my first and only amp build. This is based on Weber's 5E3x2 amp. That's the 5R4 sitting tall and proud on the left. I think I tried to stand the chassis up on its edge to check something inside and bumped that big-ass tube on the wall. When I pulled it out, the pin stayed. I was too focused on whatever I wanted to check inside the chassis. I really need a proper workbench!


----------



## mickeydg5

check these bad boys out, rare

KT77 GEC EL34 CV1741 Audio Power Valves Pair 100 | eBay


----------



## johnfv

Damn, had to do some digging to find this thread!

I was doing some maintenance work on my old Showman today. The Groove Tube 6L6GC output tubes have been in there around 30 years (and still sound pretty damn good). They say USA on them, any chance they were actually made in the US?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here's the story. GT bought a bunch of the old Sylvania NOS stock "after" Sylvania had been acquired by Philips. They got relabeled as GT. 

That is a Sylvania 6L6GC Fat Boy.

And it is probably older than 30 years. Some of the stock of Sylvania power tubes were stored since the mid-70's. All the major USA guitar amp manufacturer's were using these tubes. I bought a 1978 Peavey MACE used and it was loaded with tubes marked as Sylvania. This was in 2010. The tubes were 32 years old and still tested at 84 to 86 for a matched sextet.

Don't throw them away. I know they are still good.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...Don't throw them away. I know they are still good.


Thanks for the details Marty. I had a feeling these were the real deal because they've been so good - believe me, I won't throw them away! Although this amp has seen many gigs, since these tubes were installed it has typically been the "clean amp" in a 2 amp rig so volume rarely above 5. This was a GT H-9 matched quad (their "hardest" rating) so perfect for a Fender - still sounds excellent after all these years.





At the same time I bought these, I also got a quartet of GT 6CA7s and definitely wore them out in my 1959T.

JV


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll betcha that if you test that old Sylvania, it'll be hovering at or near 85%. I really think that they mellow out after several hours use and drop down in the 80% range and then stay there for decades. I have a quad of those and they are schweet in a Fender.

I've got a bid in on a Bogen MX60A that was used as a church PA amp. Can you say 8417? It has two of 'em, three 12AX7's and three 7247's. Shipping is going to be a beech. The thing weighs 34 lbs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah the good ole 7027 and 8417. You can still get a CP 7027. I wonder why they didn't become a standard guitar power tube (except for Ampeg)? They were beefier than a 6L6GC and a better design. RCA used them heavily in their PA amps.

Those 8417's OTOH are just a different tube altogether. The last power tube designed. My old Randall uses four of them and it bench tested at 172 RMS with only 5% distortion. The funny thing about the 8417's is the fact that the GE variety would sometimes explode and catch on fire. You will see people on EBAY selling RCA 8417's. RCA never made them. They were usually Sylvania's. I had to buy 10 8417's to get a matched quad for my Randall. It wasn't too bad as I sold the others off for more than I paid for them.


----------



## RiverRatt

No worries. It went for $62. Somebody wanted it a lot more than I did. There wasn't even a photo with the chassis open showing the tubes. It could have been empty for all I know. Shipping and all, somebody just shelled out around $100 for a big, heavy door stop. I always bid assuming the worst. The worst could be a blown OT since there's a clear picture of the PA powered-up without a load on it.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah when I first started using EBAY, I got burned on some amp deals, but the worst was this friggin' jeck from Colorado. He sold me an RCA stereo amp that used four EL84's. He said it was modded and gave a list of the tubes they assumed went in it. He went further to say that said tubes were installed and then he gave a run down of the bench test. I paid $200 for this amp. It already had the RCA inputs and professional outputs on it and a custom wood base. The amp was sold without tubes. I get the amp and I'm drooling. I load it all up with what he said to use. I hook it up to a CD player and speakers and I fire it up. Right away, one of the EL84's start to red plate and one of the 12AX7's does not light up. Upon further examination, the amp was fucked in several places and there was no way he ever got it fired up to say it was making 15 watts per channel. Looking at the schematic of the original amp, it didn't even use 12AX7's and the original only had two tubes. Someone installed a third tube socket in the chassis. I was never able to figure out what actually was supposed to be in the preamp. There was a bad resistor on the EL84 that was red plating. I tried to return it and the guy went off on me like I had deliberately tried to blow the amp up. He was a real ass wad.

The second worse amp purchase was from a kid in Canada. He had a Bogen listed on a website. It was pretty nice and had been professionally modded. I bought it with tubes for over $200. This was an old Bogen C35 with a tube rectifier. I got the amp and it was dead. Just plain would not work. I tried to troubleshoot it and I realized the OPT was shot. I had several of these amps as spares and I swapped out the OPT and it worked. I got the guy to refund me $75. 

Buying used power amps online is a bigger gamble than buying used tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

I feel for you there. Unless it is a very reputable seller it is best to treat things as unknown or not working condition and bid appropriately. Take their description with a grain of salt. If I do not win then maybe it was not meant to be is how I look at it.


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## RiverRatt

Exactly, but it took me a few hard lessons to get to that point myself. There's a real impulse to keep bidding until you win an item. Now I figure out how much I'm willing to spend, put in a bid, and forget about it until the auction is over. I haven't won many auctions this way, but the ones I do win are incredible deals.

I have a couple of PA heads to fix up. I originally bought them to scavenge, but they are in really good condition so I might see if I can get them up and running and clean them up good. One is an RCA and I can't remember the other brand - something like Lafayette. The latter had a ribbed plate Tele 12AX7 in it. I paid $10 each for them.


----------



## mickeydg5

When I am interested in something I kind of do the same. I do some homework, figure out what it may be worth, then figure what it is worth to me. I may put a minimum bid in early to show interest if others have not. But if the bidding remains low I like to wait to the last minute to place higher bids as to not give other ansty buyers the time to think and increase bids. It works sometimes. 

But I stick to my guns on my absolute high bid. You have to or may end up looking like one of these :Ohno:.


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## MM54

Ebay can be so stressful 

But I'm with mickey, I pick a max and will play the bidding game up to that point, but never more than a few cents over (eg I'm maxing at $15 and the bid is $15, I may do $16 as a last-ditch effort).


----------



## RiverRatt

I got three 12AX7's during December just by posting a $10 bid and letting the auction end. I check my email to see if I won anything 

I got an old pre-war EI, an RFT, and a Siemens und Halske. The S&H was cracked when it got here. It came from China so I figured I was screwed, but the guy put another tube in the mail to me and sent the tracking number. He didn't have another Philips tube, so he's sending me a GE black plate 5751 triple mica. That's not a bad bunch of tubes for $30.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just got 12 GE12AX7WA's for $16 each. All like new. I think they are pre-60's as well.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just got 12 GE12AX7WA's for $16 each. All like new. I think they are pre-60's as well.



Ooh...I like those. Tube store sells them for $60+.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I got them in and they are new without the original box. They all test above 32-32. 

Just got 25 high gain Raytheon Black Plates in from my New Jersey wholesaler.

Also bought some tubes off of Gameshound and they all were excellent. Amperex, Mullard and Gray Plate Sylvania's that tested on average 40-40. Great PI tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, power tube time. I picked up a Peavey Valve King VK112 really, really cheap. I've heard all about how these amps suck BAD, and I wasn't impressed at first. I did some research and found a few simple things to try. I jumpered the effects loop with a 6" cable, plugged a stereo headphone 1/4" adapter into the first input and guitar into the 2nd, replaced V1 with a Sylvania 5751, V2 with a Mullard I61, and V3 with a hot RCA 12AX7A. I swapped out the Russian 5881WXT power tubes with a pair of KT66's. Lastly, I put a WGS Green Beret that I got from DirtySteve in it. This amp now has some serious TONE. I keep meaning to do a decent recording, but everything's all jumbled up right now. I did this last night with my iPhone. It ain't right on more than one level. Forgive me, I was in a different frame of mind.

http://youtu.be/WY5EpQJ9ThA


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and Joe, these are real WA's from 1955.


----------



## johnfv

The most power tube thread action I have seen in a long time. I love it! Like the good old days...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn Alan, you changed so many things is it still a Peavey? How are the 66's running in that amp. What's the plate voltage?

I played Peaveys for years, but that was in the early 70's. Had a Black Widow 212 MACE Combo (Freebird amp) and a Scorpion 212 Renown (SS). I thought both of those amps sounded really good with a 1974 Custom Les Paul and a Gibson 335. It's funny. I fit right in with the guys back in Oklahoma with the Peavey gear. I got to Phoenix in 1984 and they laughed at me for having that "boat anchor" gear. Sold it all and got a 2203 half stack.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, it's definitely still a Peavey. It's bearable now, though. If you engage the "bright" switch, it *will* pierce your eardrums. I don't understand why the FX loop bridge and bridging the first input jack works so well, but it does. I may try that big ol' red Utah/Radio Shack speaker I have in it. What's really good is the clean channel. It's got that hot-rodded Fender sound. Not like one of the boomy, scooped-sounding amps - more like a Bassman or something with more mids. That clip sounds awful. It's an iPhone clip so it's compressed and distorted as usual.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Ok .... what's the story on a 6098 power tube ??


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## MartyStrat54

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Ok .... what's the story on a 6098 power tube ??



AKA 6AR6 Beam Tetrode. Most were the "WA" military issue designed for sweep amplifiers for air borne radar systems. They are like a 5881 with a different pinout. A 6L6GC circuit can be modded to accept these, but you would be better off modding the amp for 7027A's, because they are more readily available and basically have the same specs.

Now I did go on EBAY to see if there were any for sale and I found a few. A NOS pair of Tung-Sol's went for $15. That's pretty cheap, but I wouldn't want to go to all the trouble to mod my amp for these. They are like an 8417, pretty obscure, but the 8417's bring a lot more $$$.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought it would be right to put my post #6550 in the power tube thread!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I had a 100 of those to sell. I'd buy a bass boat.


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## RiverRatt

Fuck a bass boat. There's a lot of stuff on my list to check off before I get around to bass boats, and I enjoy fishing. You never pay for a boat. The purchase price is just the down payment.


----------



## johnfv

A hole in the water that you pour money into. Ski boat owner here


----------



## MartyStrat54

"You never pay for a boat."

How do you do that? Use your neighbors boat, or go fishing with him?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh boy, some more "RCA" 6550's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And let's not forget "these" RCA tubes.











Gee, that USA looks familiar. I've seen that someplace before.


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## MartyStrat54

Hmm! This tube has 8417-USA on it too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey greengirl is selling the one that was known to catch on fire.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice, very nice. I'd like to have this in some Fender clone amp.






Two 1957 CBS 6V6's.


----------



## mickeydg5

Have any of you heard or experienced the whole 8417s blowing up thing?

I read some say they are reliable and others talk about brimstone and fire.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> "You never pay for a boat."
> 
> How do you do that? Use your neighbors boat, or go fishing with him?



John got it. I mean that even though you buy a boat and the title changes hands, you will be throwing more money at it than it's worth to store it, keep it maintained, and be ready to shell out more than I make in a month when something major goes wrong with the engine. You never stop spending money on it until you sell it. I don't currently have a fishing boat, but if I did, it would probably be a jon boat with maybe a 20hp engine, trolling motor and depth finder. Get some plywood, styrofoam and artificial turf, build a front & rear deck, and you can fish anywhere around here with that rig.


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## MartyStrat54

Oh I wouldn't ever get one of those fancy boats that cost as much as a 700 Series BMW. I'd like an aluminum Lowe's or Bass Tracker. 20 HP engine would be just fine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Have any of you heard or experienced the whole 8417s blowing up thing?
> 
> I read some say they are reliable and others talk about brimstone and fire.



Well the GE's were the one's that got the bad rep. I saw one of those (at one time) popular Quicksilver power amps all fucked up by an exploding GE, but that was in 1985.

My Randall RG150 Alpha (1974) has two GE's and two Sylvania's in it. I bought like 12 of them to make a matched quad. 

I don't play it that much, but so far all of them are a humming along.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

QUESTION :


Whats the diff between a 6L6 .... and a 5881 ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

A whole lot. You can't use a 5881 as a sub for a 6L6GC. Your 6100 uses 6L6GC's.

See my PM to you.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

actually , the 6100LM asks for 5881's from factory ...


----------



## MartyStrat54

5881 / 6L6WGB: This type originally was known as the 6L6WGB, and was designed for the US military. Nearly all were made by Tung Sol. The tube is a short flat topped tube with a brown base, and a large grey plate structure inside. These often had large top getter patches, but there are some with side getters. The design proved so popular that an industrial version was created and labeled the 5881. Both tubes are the same. These are slightly more powerful than the 6L6 standard types, *having 360 volts at 23 watts on the plate and 270 volts at 3 watts on the screen.* They can replace any 6L6 type except for the GC, 7581, or KT66. They MAY POSSIBLY be used as a sub for these tubes, but ONLY if your amp does not exceed the ratings of the 5881! Most amps calling for a 6L6GC type will exceed these ratings and the 5881 may overheat or arc over, so check first before subbing these! This is a fine tube used in many high fidelity amps, and packs a wonderful sound into a small package. Found also in RCA, GE, Sylvania and other brands, but nearly all were made by Tung Sol.

6L6GC: This is the newer version of this family of tubes, made to meet the demands of public address and musical instrument amps, and high fidelity equipment. It's a true heavyweight, *with 500 volt at 30 watt plate ratings, and 450 volt at 5 watt screen specs!* This tube will replace virtually any of the other 6L6 tube types. These are found in straight sided glass packages, and most are no older than the late 1950s as this tube has not been around all that long. This is the only type being currently made today, but caution is advised if your amp puts nearly the max voltage on plate or screen as some of the modern tubes may arc over. You may find that only NOS versions will work in your amp. The most desirable of these tubes is probably the RCA blackplate, which was only produced until the later 1960s, however other NOS greyplate USA made versions are excellent and still available.

The above courtesy of Brent Jessee.

Now that you see the big difference in plate voltage and screen voltage, are you saying that the plate voltage of your 6100 is around 360VDC? What is the power transformer putting out? Did you ever check this? A 6L6GC will sub for any of the other 6L6 varieties, but not the other way around. I'd find out what that 6100 is putting out to the plates before installing 5881's. Besides, the 5881's that are available right now are pretty crappy at being overpowered.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> 5881 / 6L6WGB: This type originally was known as the 6L6WGB, and was designed for the US military. Nearly all were made by Tung Sol. The tube is a short flat topped tube with a brown base, and a large grey plate structure inside. These often had large top getter patches, but there are some with side getters. The design proved so popular that an industrial version was created and labeled the 5881. Both tubes are the same. These are slightly more powerful than the 6L6 standard types, *having 360 volts at 23 watts on the plate and 270 volts at 3 watts on the screen.* They can replace any 6L6 type except for the GC, 7581, or KT66. They MAY POSSIBLY be used as a sub for these tubes, but ONLY if your amp does not exceed the ratings of the 5881! Most amps calling for a 6L6GC type will exceed these ratings and the 5881 may overheat or arc over, so check first before subbing these! This is a fine tube used in many high fidelity amps, and packs a wonderful sound into a small package. Found also in RCA, GE, Sylvania and other brands, but nearly all were made by Tung Sol.
> 
> 6L6GC: This is the newer version of this family of tubes, made to meet the demands of public address and musical instrument amps, and high fidelity equipment. It's a true heavyweight, *with 500 volt at 30 watt plate ratings, and 450 volt at 5 watt screen specs!* This tube will replace virtually any of the other 6L6 tube types. These are found in straight sided glass packages, and most are no older than the late 1950s as this tube has not been around all that long. This is the only type being currently made today, but caution is advised if your amp puts nearly the max voltage on plate or screen as some of the modern tubes may arc over. You may find that only NOS versions will work in your amp. The most desirable of these tubes is probably the RCA blackplate, which was only produced until the later 1960s, however other NOS greyplate USA made versions are excellent and still available.
> 
> The above courtesy of Brent Jessee.
> 
> Now that you see the big difference in plate voltage and screen voltage, are you saying that the plate voltage of your 6100 is around 360VDC? What is the power transformer putting out? Did you ever check this? A 6L6GC will sub for any of the other 6L6 varieties, but not the other way around. I'd find out what that 6100 is putting out to the plates before installing 5881's. Besides, the 5881's that are available right now are pretty crappy at being overpowered.






Holy Shit .... Thanks Marty !!


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

IIRC when i tossed in the TADs , the plate voltage was around 475 mv ....
Sounds like a 6L6GC is the way to go ..... makes me wonder how Marshall got away using the 5881 in the 6100 chassis .....


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Ok , here's a list .... What one's do you stay away from , period !!





Electro-Harmonix
Genalex - Gold Lion
Groove Tubes
JJ / Tesla
Little Dot Tubes
Mullard
Ruby
SED
Sino / Shuguang
Sovtek
Svetlana / Svet
TAD / Tube Amp Doctor
Tung-Sol
Valve Art


----------



## mickeydg5

I have read The Brent Jesse information before. His numbers mentioned are incorrect according to the data sheets. The 360V plate and 270V screen are for earlier 6L6(G) tubes. The 5881 tubes were a little higher at 400V and 400V.

The 5881 was a robust tube and used in a lot of Fenders with 450 and even 470 volt plates. I think that is where Marshall got the 5881 (idea instead of using 6L6GC callout).

If piece of mind helps then some nice 6L6GCs or KT66s is the way to go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well 400VDC is low as most Marshall's are above 450. My Duncan Tube Software (TDSL) shows a 5881 rating of 360/270VDC. I think the 400VDC only applies to the new CP tubes like Tung-Sol.



> There are some important things to know about the reissue Tungsol 5881 tube before you decide to use it. The Tungsol 5881 is a 23 watt tube and is rated for a maximum plate voltage of 400VDC. The many amplifiers that have higher plate voltage but use a tube rectifier can use the Tungsol 5881 tubes without issue. A prime example is the '59 Bassman LTD. However it is also critical to rebias the amp heeding the 5881's 23W rating. This will provide a vintage tone and less clean headroom. Leaving the bias set to a 6L6GC setting and/or using the Tungsol 5881 in a high voltage amp with a solid-state rectifier, will likely cause problems and are not covered by warranty. For these cases consider the Tung-sol 6L6GC-STR tubes instead. They are rated for 30 watts and 500V so they will hold up better. Their tone is quite similar to the 5881 too.



Hot Tubes-The list you made, quite a few are the same manufacturer, but just relabeled.

Electro-Harmonix-----------Russian
Genalex - Gold Lion---------Russian
Groove Tubes--------------Shuguang
JJ / Tesla------------------Just JJ, not Tesla. Yugoslavia 
Little Dot Tubes------------Russian Military or Electro-Harmonix/Not for guitar amps.
Mullard--------------------Russian
Ruby----------------------Shuguang
SED-----------------------Russian
Sino---------------------- Shuguang
Sovtek---------------------Russian
Svetlana / Svet------------Russian
TAD / Tube Amp Doctor-----German designed/Made in China-Best 6L6GC design
Tung-Sol-------------------Russian/One of the better 6L6GC's
Valve Art-------------------Shuguang/O&J company

If you want to try something different, I would recommend the Tung-Sol's. Since you live in Canada, I would highly recommend The Tube Store. Look over the various 6L6GC's and see what you like.


----------



## mickeydg5

Here are some references I use for 5881 tubes.

A lot of characteristic books show "typical operating voltages" of the 5881 tube as well as other 6L6 types at 360 on plates and 270 on screens with Class AB push-pull. But the the design center ratings of 360V and 270V were only on data sheets for 6L6 and 6L6G.

The tube specs data sheet on the current Tung-Sol website for the 5881 is actually a copy from the 1962 data sheet.

See links:
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/127/5/5881.pdf
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/049/5/5881.pdf

Note that all current or recent Fender models did migrate to 6L6GC tubes where 6L6 types are concerned.

ADD***
Also to NOTE: when Marshall started specifying 5881 tubes in their amplifiers in the 1990's they used Sovtek who were putting out 5881WXT and 5881/6L6WGC types which are basically the same tube. So technically Marshall was using 6L6GC tubes, not true 5881 tubes.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Thanks Marty & Micky !!!


----------



## Blcws6

Can you guys identify this EL34? Is it legit NOS?

supposedly its and RFT/Siemens but DAMN it looks in brand new condition and I didnt think NOS tubes would be so pristine.


----------



## MM54

That's an RFT, note how the plates are crimped together (as opposed to welded) and the distinct 'sails' at the top.


----------



## Blcws6

Well thats good news! Your sure its not a copy? Im looking forward to trading out my Winged C el34s for these bad boys. What kinda changes would you expect to notice?


----------



## mickeydg5

Yep, looks RFT. If unused then they will look new.

NOS = new tubes from old stock

Add: I find they sound similar but that depends on the set of tubes. I have not had tons of either type.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are still bulk boxes of RFT's over in Germany that are just now being sold. One thing about a tube, it doesn't rot. The box it came in will, but the tube will stay new say for a little oxidation on the pins. Don't feel bad about getting a pristine set, be happy.

I think you asked me about these tubes when they were for sale, didn't you?

Anyway, as I told you, I like the tone of an RFT over the Winged C. "And" the RFT's will last at least three times as long.


----------



## mickeydg5

Hey Marty

What did you find as far as differences between the =C= and RFT tubes?
Describe your general sound a little as in do you like playing with a good bit of low end, or with more mids, or a decent amount of presence or some combination?

For some reason I want to say the =C= set I had used edged out the RFT tube a little in the lows and top end/presence. Although that was like 15 years ago and I think the RFTs had a few more hours on them but still tested very strong.


----------



## Oatie

I re-tubed my 1972 JMP50 with some old stock glass.
The 1972 era EL34 Blackburn Mullards, and Amperex 7025 from 1969 era.
Amperex pre-amp. Man, the amp always sounds great with new/old tubes.
I still have about 2 quads and 4 pair of the old Blackburn EL34 tubes left.
They last a long time if you bias the amp warm, too hot and they will not
Last. Many people think a hotter bias makes the amp sound better. Using math combined with a scope will insure a good sounding amp and decent tube life.
These old Mullards can take some high plate voltage. This old 1972 JMP50 never had screen/grid resistors from the factory, and many people lost the PT due to using cheaper new stock tubes that shorted or failed. And the Standby Switch was wired in series with the power switch, so the load was instant on most old 1972 era amps. I had to re-wire the Standby Switch to work correctly. Now this amp is set-up good. I will try to make a clip when I get home. I'm on the road now. 

And study the pins of any old NOS EL34 Tubes you may want to buy and make sure they have shines-new pins, and not blued or burned pins 1/2 way down the pins. Most eBay EL34 tubes are almost dead. The old siemons tubes are very good too.






I still need to install the 5.6k output grid resistors as my amp never
had them. Here is a clip courtesy from George at Metro Amp.
I tried to find some Welwyn but I did not find any. I'm going to go
with the Piher 5.6k.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice amp. Nice set of tubes. I run Mullard xF2's in my TSL 602 and they kick ass. I like them in their because the plate voltage is higher than average.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Hey Marty
> 
> What did you find as far as differences between the =C= and RFT tubes?
> Describe your general sound a little as in do you like playing with a good bit of low end, or with more mids, or a decent amount of presence or some combination?
> 
> For some reason I want to say the =C= set I had used edged out the RFT tube a little in the lows and top end/presence. Although that was like 15 years ago and I think the RFTs had a few more hours on them but still tested very strong.



Well everyone has their own tastes. As stated, my favorite EL34's are the Mullard xF series, especially the dual getter model.

I feel that the RFT is the best "overall" tube still available as an NOS. That doesn't mean that everyone will agree. I describe both the =C= and the RFT as being a smooth sounding tube. And yes, they are similar in tone. Whatever differences they have can be altered with the tone controls. I feel the RFT has plenty of mids and highs and doesn't have to be boosted with the tone controls. Say 11 to 2 on the mids and highs knobs. Also, depending on the speaker and cab, the low end will vary. I run RFT's in my TSL 122 with Eminence Man 'O Wars and this is a very metal sounding amp. The palm mutes are very tight and powerful with a complete range of tone. By that, I mean you can hear the low E and the high E and everything in the middle with the same consistency. When I had my killer 1960A cab that was modified with Eminence Black Powders and Tonespotters, I pluged my 122 into this and the low end was incredible. Again, when we talk about low end with a six string guitar, we are actually talking about low mids. I consider low end to start at around 65Hz and you aren't going to achieve this with a low E string. 

I've used the =C='s in a few amps when they were still reasonably priced. I thought they were good sounding tubes for being current production. They do have a reputation, yet a lot of guys like the JJ E34L or Groove Tube EL34M over the =C='s. Out of these tubes, the E34L is more aggressive sounding. The EL34M is closer to the =C=, but is a lot cheaper to buy.

You can take several brands of tubes and test them in an amp without moving the tone controls, but by the time you get them in and biased, your ear doesn't really remember how the prior tube sounded. Also, when it comes to power tubes, some brands sound better at a hotter bias than say another brand which might like a colder bias. Wilder likes his E34L's at around 65%. So with all these variable parameters and the use of the tone controls, you can make a power tube differ in tone.

I hope this makes sense to you. Marty


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

What would the differences be between these :


TUNG SOL 6L6STR 

TUNG SOL 5881


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well everyone has their own tastes.
> 
> I feel that the RFT is the best "overall" tube still available as an NOS.
> 
> I hope this makes sense to you. Marty


 
Total sense, you gave me everything I asked. I know you have much more experience with testing and trying various tubes in amplifiers.

Thank you very much.


----------



## MartyStrat54

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> What would the differences be between these :
> 
> 
> TUNG SOL 6L6STR
> 
> TUNG SOL 5881



I have already posted the difference. (See above post.) The Tung-Sol 5881 is rated at 400VDC on the plates and the Tung-Sol 6L6GC STR is rated at 500 on the plates. While there is a difference in tone and tube overdrive between these two tubes, if your 6100 has higher plate voltages (along with a solid state rectifier), you will fry the 5881's.

FYI-Tube rectifiers will multiply the output of the power transformer by a factor of 1.1 to 1.2. Solid state rectifiers are hotter at around 1.4. Tube rectifiers have more SAG than a SS.

400VDC X 1.1 = 440VDC
400VDC X 1.2 = 480VDC
400VDC X 1.4 = 560VDC

So you can see there is a big difference of the B+ voltage between a tube and SS rectifier. They sell SS adapters that you substitute for a tube, but you have to be careful, as the B+ will increase and might cause problems such as too high of B+ on the power tubes in the amp or you may not be able to bias the amp properly.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have already posted the difference. (See above post.) The Tung-Sol 5881 is rated at 400VDC on the plates and the Tung-Sol 6L6GC STR is rated at 500 on the plates. While there is a difference in tone and tube overdrive between these two tubes, if your 6100 has higher plate voltages (along with a solid state rectifier), you will fry the 5881's.
> 
> FYI-Tube rectifiers will multiply the output of the power transformer by a factor of 1.1 to 1.2. Solid state rectifiers are hotter at around 1.4. Tube rectifiers have more SAG than a SS.
> 
> 400VDC X 1.1 = 440VDC
> 400VDC X 1.2 = 480VDC
> 400VDC X 1.4 = 560VDC
> 
> So you can see there is a big difference of the B+ voltage between a tube and SS rectifier. They sell SS adapters that you substitute for a tube, but you have to be careful, as the B+ will increase and might cause problems such as too high of B+ on the power tubes in the amp or you may not be able to bias the amp properly.





Oh , sorry Marty , i must have missed your post about that ...

Thanks again


----------



## RiverRatt

I noticed that in a recent issue of Vintage Guitar, they have a picture of a Fender tweed 5F4 Super which ran a pair of 6L6GC's and the photo clearly shows a pair of Tung-Sol 5881's in the amp. Brent Jesse's info should be taken with a grain of salt. Although several tube manufacturers produced a 6L6GB, I have found ZERO evidence that the classic 5881 was ever manufactured by anybody other than Tung-Sol. I have 5881's with CBS labels, RCA labels, even mil-spec 6L6WGB's and the construction is IDENTICAL to every other 5881 I've seen. AFAIK, these would have been the output tubes in the Bassman amp that Jim Marshall used as the basis for the JTM-45. I don't think it's any accident that when the supply of EL34's dried up for awhile, Marshall chose to use the 5881. 

I've said it before and it's still true. The 5881 is my absolute favorite output tube. If you combined the best feature of every popular octal power tube, you'd end up with something very close to the Tung-Sol 5881. Don't accept the Sovtek 5881WXT as a substitute. It's a 6L6GC.


----------



## johnfv

I love those old cloth tube retainers! My 1959T has them as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool! It looks like that weird African tribal hat thing that the Reverend Willy G. lives in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cloth? It's probably asbestos.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have no problem agreeing that real 5881's could be used over the 6L6G. That and the tube rectifier, it probably had a B+ of around 440VDC, maybe a little less. NOTE-Did a little surfing and it looks like the B+ was around 410 to 420VDC.

FYI-The rare early Supers are somewhat different from the later tweed amps that most players are familiar with, using fat-sounding 6SJ7 octal (eight-pin) preamp tubes—later 6SC7s—and some more primitive circuitry, but they are still great sounding amps.

I always wanted a Marshall JMP amp modded to have three 6SL7's for the preamp and a 12AX7 for the PI. The amplification factor of the 6SL7 is a little lower, so you would need to run three to get the gain needed to make it a Marshall. I think the 6SL7 is a lot sweeter than an all 12AX7 amp. Not to mention that 6SL7's are dirt cheap.

I know a guy that runs two identical tube amps (I think they were Zenith's) from 1949. They used two 6SL7's and some obscure power tubes that had the metal tips for B+ on the top of the glass. He upgraded the caps and some of the resistors. They put out around 30 watts at .1THD. This was one of the most musical systems I have ever heard. Anything on it sounded good. I really liked the old 33's that he played.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

I'm like a dog with his tail between his legs , as i report that Wimped out and reordered the TAD 6L6WGC STR 's again .... i was pumped to try the KT66's , but could not do it ! I just loved the way these TAD's work in my 6100 !! Maybe i'l sprout some ball's next time ....

These are the one's i ordered :


www.thetubestore.com - TAD 6L6WGC-STR Audio Tubes


----------



## mickeydg5

Ah man, everyone raves about the sound and feel of KT66 tubes. You have got to try them, at least once.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

mickeydg5 said:


> Ah man, everyone raves about the sound and feel of KT66 tubes. You have got to try them, at least once.



yeah , i hear ya Mickey ....

I have the TAD's in the output section along with TUNG- SOLS in the preamp , to my ears that makes my 6100 sound BadAss !!!

Who knows , maybe if i have a good run on pedal sales & mods i'l get the KT66's as well just for fun .... MARSHALLMANN says that his Gold Lions sound fantastic in his 6100 , i wish i could hear them first ..... Damn !! I got Tube GAS now ..... FUCK !


----------



## RiverRatt

Mike, if you only needed two KT66's I have a pair of Tung-Sols that aren't doing anything. I've tried to sell them in the Classifieds before and nobody is interested in them. I'd be glad to send them to you if you can use them.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

RiverRatt said:


> Mike, if you only needed two KT66's I have a pair of Tung-Sols that aren't doing anything. I've tried to sell them in the Classifieds before and nobody is interested in them. I'd be glad to send them to you if you can use them.




That's an interesting proposal .... 

PM me for details ... Thanks !


----------



## RiverRatt

PM sent. Like I mentioned in the PM, you can't use Tung-Sol KT66's with the bear trap style tube retainers. The Tung-Sols have a metal base and will ground to the chassis with those retainers in place.


----------



## mickeydg5

Is the metal base of the Tung-Sol KT66 connected to any pin?
If so I was unaware, it does not show on the data sheet.


----------



## RiverRatt

It was awhile back, but the info came from the Vintage Modern forum. I didn't question it at the time, but I just tested it with my Fluke DMM and yes, pin 1 is definitely connected to the metal base. That would put Grid3 straight to the chassis. I don't know why they went with such a stupid design choice. Plus, you have to put the screws back in the chassis to keep the tube board secured after you take the retainers off. The bases on the Tung-Sols are wider than the tube retainers so it's impossible to fully seat the tube in the socket. Construction wise, they look more like a tall 6550 than a KT66.

I will say that they sounded better in my amp than either the Genalex R.I. or the Marshall/Shuguangs.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> It was awhile back, but the info came from the Vintage Modern forum. I didn't question it at the time, but I just tested it with my Fluke DMM and yes, pin 1 is definitely connected to the metal base. That would put Grid3 straight to the chassis. I don't know why they went with such a stupid design choice. Plus, you have to put the screws back in the chassis to keep the tube board secured after you take the retainers off. The bases on the Tung-Sols are wider than the tube retainers so it's impossible to fully seat the tube in the socket. Construction wise, they look more like a tall 6550 than a KT66.
> 
> I will say that they sounded better in my amp than either the Genalex R.I. or the Marshall/Shuguangs.


According to KT66 data sheets pin#1 has no connection to any electrode. Pin#8 is connected to the supressor (G3) and cathode (K). (removed the pin#3 statement)

So pin#1 to base is ok. It is still a stupid connection though and it is not indicated on the Tung-Sol data sheet.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was going by the Vintage Modern 2266 schematic. Here's the power tube section:


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

So RiverRatt , are you saying that those KT66's won't work in my 6100 ?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I was going by the Vintage Modern 2266 schematic. Here's the power tube section: picture removed, see above


 


HOT TUBES 70 said:


> So RiverRatt , are you saying that those KT66's won't work in my 6100 ?


 
I misread your other post and was thinking pin#3 and not Grid3 as you stated.
Nevertheless, pin#1 has no connection to an internal electrode. Marshall's schematic is drawn wrong and notice there is no line connected to any G3. G3 (suppressor) is connected with K (cathode) to pin#8 internally. So there is no connection to G3 from either the base or pin#1.

HotTubes70
Your amplifier is a 6100 model and has spring retainers, not tube clips. Right?
The KT66 will be fine in your amp anyways.


----------



## guitargoalie

Hey guys, not sure if it's been mentioned here, but I'm looking at some new power tubes for my dsl50. I'm consider the jj kt77 or jj6ca7. Which is closer to a 6L6? Looking for thicker low mids and more bass


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would recommend the EH 6CA7 over the JJ's.


----------



## mickeydg5

The 6CA7 may sound closer to a 6L6 but the the KT77 would be the choice if a little more compression/distortion is desired.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

All i can say is , i'm glad i got the TAD's again , these work so well in the 6100LM !
I have since read a ton of reviews say that the TAD's are one of the best RCA style power tube for CP unit's and a very close to the NOS version's !!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad it worked out for ya.


----------



## sccloser

Ok...I have a question. No gigs until March, so I pulled my mkiii off the equipment trailer and doing some maintenance. 

How many hours would you expect to safely get out of a set of cp el-34's? I think I have JJ E34L tubes in the mkiii (though they may be branded GT e34l but they I remember they looked exactly like JJ's).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would think somewhere between 1500 to 2000+ hours, "if you got a good set to begin with."

If you play everyday for four hours for six months, this would be 720 hours. So a year would be 1440. I think most guys get at least a year out of a set. A lot has to do with how hot the bias is and how stable your wall voltage is. (I use a line conditioner that keeps the line voltage steady.)

Now, as Alan and I know, NOS power tubes like the well built Sylvania's are more like 5,000+ hour tubes. We have both seen these tubes in 25 year old amps and the tubes were OE and still testing in the high 70's or low 80's. I had a Peavey MACE with Sylvania 6L6GC's and this amp was made in 1976. The tubes tested in the mid 80's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. Old Sylvania 6L6GC's don't die, they mellow like a fine wine.


----------



## sccloser

Ok,that's cool then. I have had these tubes in for almost 2 years, but probably only have 300 to 400 hours on them, with maybe half of that being at gig volumes. Of course, we have had many 2 plus hour live practices where we were actually louder than at a gig, but that is another story.

I had set the bias near the max, I think that was 70%. I will check that as well and maybe back it down to 65% or so to see how that sounds. Need to clean the pots and maybe re-cap if I get around to it. It is a 1991 and the caps look original.


----------



## sccloser

Ok, I will try this again. Typed this once already and it disappeared.

Did some maintenance on the old Mkiii today. Cleaned out the pots and jacks, and checked my tubes. The orange logos on my GT E34L's hadn't even turned brown yet. They have about 300 hours on them I would estimate. Plugged my bias probes in and was showing 452v plate voltage and each tube was flowing 28 ma and 31 ma respectively. That is a pretty good match, but a little on the low side, near 50% MPD. Bias must have drifted because I remember setting these much closer to 65 or 70%. So I made a little tweak and upped them to 31 and 34 ma. 

Plugged everything back in and it was sounding pretty good. Better than before. It has a sweet spot when the volume is near 11 o'clock and you turn the gain sensitivity to about 8 or 9 o'clock. Really gets some balls and good bottom at that point. My ears are still recovering. 

So, I should get some more good use out of these tubes (I think they are relabeled JJ;s) since they have been running cool for a while.

Oh, and I think this one is a 1992...not 91. Drake trannies were dated 1992.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, with no more time on them than that, they should be good for quite awhile. You may find it easier to adjust the bias to the best tone and then make sure they are within specs. Play for 20 minutes or so and watch them for redplating. If you are under 70%, go with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of people fail to properly warm up the tubes before adjusting. I play an amp for around thirty minutes before doing a bias adjustment.

If you have a new set of tubes, depending on use, I suggest checking the bias again between two and four weeks.


----------



## yladrd61




----------



## yladrd61

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> All i can say is , i'm glad i got the TAD's again , these work so well in the 6100LM !
> I have since read a ton of reviews say that the TAD's are one of the best RCA style power tube for CP unit's and a very close to the NOS version's !!



And the TAD Sort Bottle 6L6WGC are a lot like GE 6L6Gcs


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> A lot of people fail to properly warm up the tubes before adjusting. I play an amp for around thirty minutes before doing a bias adjustment.
> 
> If you have a new set of tubes, depending on use, I suggest checking the bias again between two and four weeks.



Yeah, they were new when I put them in and I don't think I checked the after initially setting the bias.


----------



## keennay

I'd like to swap out the power tubes in my '76 JMP 2203 (came stock with EL-34's). Which set are recommended if I'm looking for higher gain?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your gain is going to come from the preamp. Looking at current production, you should get a hand select Chinese Shuguang for V1. If you can get one that isn't noisy, they are pretty fierce tubes. Use a Mullard RI in V2 and an EH in V3.

Also, the 2203 sounds good with the JJ E34L's biased around 65 to 68 percent.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I picked up a pair of Sylvania 8417 tubes today to try in my Bassman. I thought they were a sub for a 6L6GC and the guy I got them from said that he had run them at 800v with no problem. They sounded good and gainy for a little while, kind of like a dirty 6550. After only a few minutes, one of them did the Rudolph thing, like red enough to guide Santa's sleigh. Is it my bias voltage or can the tubes not sub for a 6L6GC without modification?


----------



## mickeydg5

Those 8417 tubes do not drop in or plain substitute for 6L6GC, 7581 or 6550. Circuits would definitely have to be modified. They have the same basing and it might sound like a 5881 compared to a plain 6L6 but that is about it.

I am no expert on 8417 tubes but I think those are like gas guzzlers. They must suck a lot of juice or well pass a lot.

Even at low idle current with the average push-pull guitar amplifier's B+ on the plate and screen plus the large signal being placed at the grids, those things have the potential of burning up your guitar amplifier output transformer as well as themselves.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but that is what I gather.


----------



## sccloser

Speaking of tubes going "Rudolph," I had an old Sylvania EL84 that I picked up at a yard sale along with 2 12ax7's for $10 a while back. A month or two ago I had my C5 apart messing with the tubes and I decided to try that Sylv in it. It had checked good on my tester, so I stuck it in there and let it warm up for a minute or two then started playing. It was sounding pretty good and after a few minutes I cranked the volume up to about 9 and it was sounding really good. As I was playing, I noticed the el84 suddenly getting bright red, and as it was, the amp was sounding incredible! Seriously, it had never sounded that good before. Then within about 30 seconds, the tube goes out and no output other than some crackling. Tube burnt out. Sucks, but it did go out in style!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I picked up a pair of Sylvania 8417 tubes today to try in my Bassman. I thought they were a sub for a 6L6GC and the guy I got them from said that he had run them at 800v with no problem.



But did the guy say they were a true sub for a 6L6GC? No they ain't. The 8417 was the last power tube design and it was "thrown together" in a haste to get it in production. (This is why the GE is known for imploding and catching on fire.) The main design point of the 8417 is that it has a very high transconductance. It also draws a lot of current. It is usually designed with different rated output transformers than a 6L6GC. Four of them ran wide open on a single rail design will top 200 watts. My old Randall was throttled back in the design to make it more reliable. It bench tested at 172 watts at 5 percent distortion. 

I'd keep those 8417's out of the Bassman or you could cause some problems.


----------



## Dizzyg12

Let me move this here:


Opinions or thoughts on the mullard el34s versus jj el34s? I'm debating whether to have the tech upgrade the power tubes in my blackstar,while he has it. I have all jjecc82 and 83s in the preamps slots. Just wondering if i should stick with jjs for the power tubes or if mallards would fit well with the jjs. He only has mallards in stock and don't wanna make two trips if I don't have to. 

I know it's not Marshall related, but I respect everyone's opinions here. 


Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you are going to use the JJ power tubes, use the JJ E34L. These have a big following and are reasonably priced. I feel that the Mullard El34 and the EH EL34 look almost identical in construction and they are made at the same Russian plant. However, the Mullard EL34 is stated to be a good fit tone wise for a Marshall amp.

Other than the power tubes, are you happy with the overall tone of the amp? You should maybe try a Mullard RI 12AX7 in the V1 slot and see if you like that over the darker sounding JJ.


----------



## Dizzyg12

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you are going to use the JJ power tubes, use the JJ E34L. These have a big following and are reasonably priced. I feel that the Mullard El34 and the EH EL34 look almost identical in construction and they are made at the same Russian plant. However, the Mullard EL34 is stated to be a good fit tone wise for a Marshall amp.
> 
> Other than the power tubes, are you happy with the overall tone of the amp? You should maybe try a Mullard RI 12AX7 in the V1 slot and see if you like that over the darker sounding JJ.



 
Yeah I'm happy with the tone overall. The stock tubes on the blackstar amps got a bad rap and once. Replaced the preamps, it changed for the better. Not being schooled enough to bias mp the amp myself thought I'd take the opp to have the tech make the change since he's opening it up for a separate issue. Just wasn't sure of the mullards as I've not heard them in person that I'm aware of. I know how jjs sound for the most part, obviously the amp they are in make a difference but I have a good idea of their characteristics.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a nice pile of parts. It's out of my league; I couldn't even afford the shipping. It might be cheaper to fly to Japan and pick it up.

Matsushita El 34 Power Tube Amp All Luxman Oy Series w Beautiful Sound RARE | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked and at first you think he is selling a Luxman. It is a Luxman clone made in Japan. The power tranny is for Japanese power, so you would have to use a real solid variac to drop it down to 100VAC. $300 for shipping. Wow! You're right, fly over and put it in a suitcase. He is going to give the winner a spare EL34. Great, but does it match? Then you still need to find a tube preamp.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't even pretend to understand the hi-fi crowd. I learned that they are all insane when someone paid almost $1,200 for that Western Electric 300B. I traded a four-channel PA head to a guy for my current power amp after my old Dynaco crapped out. It would have cost an unbelievable amount to re-cap the Dynaco - those things were about the size of a beer can. I have maybe $100 invested in the sound system in my music area and it sounds just fine to me. I mostly use it for recording and jamming along with backing tracks. I have a cheap Pioneer graphic EQ, the power amp, and an old Mac. I have some old JBL studio monitors from back when they still made them the right way. Oak cabinets, real JBL drivers, etc. They are about the size of a bookshelf speaker. It works for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Or you could buy a new BOSE Wave unit. With all the options, CD changer and IPod docking, it is $650 for a plastic box with speakers.







Special offer

Save $99.95 when you order by 2/28/13. Regularly $749.90.


----------



## Riffraff

Okay, talk to me about swapping a pair of 6V6GT's with a pair of 6K6GT tubes. I picked up a pair of Sylvania's to try in my T15 but I think I would rather run them in my 1482. It would benefit from the reduced output and earlier break up. 






I know the charts say they are rated for 250v but I've also seen reference to 315v. The 1482 puts 346v on the plates. I've read the Sylvania's are a little hardier but I'm still putting about 30v more on them than they are rated for. I really don't want to take out my OT in the process. Should I take any precautions? Alan, I think you said you've run them in your Tweaker and that runs a similar voltage....how did they do?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Should be okay in the Tweaker 15. Maybe not so in the 1482. I did a little surfing on your behalf and it seems that the guys with tweaker amps have run them sucessfully.


----------



## Riffraff

Thanks Marty. That's too bad but since I got them for my Tweaker anyway there's no harm done. I suppose it's best if I limit my power tube swapping to the T15. There's plenty of preamp tubes to play with in the others.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is Alan's comment to you from a different thread.



> RiverRatt: The 6K6 has long been a substitute for 6V6's in Fender amps. They match up almost identically except in output power. They are supposed to have roughly half the output power of a 6V6. In the Tweaker, that doesn't translate to a lowered perceived volume, it just sounds like the tubes are working harder. They are great on the Marshall and Vox settings, kind of like a hot EL84 amp. I think I've posted on here before that they sound really EL84-like in the Tweaker.
> 
> You sound like me. If it's a tube that I might find a use for some day, I never throw them away. I've been picking up 6K6GT's here and there for several months now. I have a nice personal stash
> 
> Go give 'em a try. You can thank me later...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Plate voltage is the same at 285VDC.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is Alan's comment to you from a different thread.



I picked them up for the Tweaker on his recommendation and then started thinking how "half power" without the use of an attenuator would be real nice in one of my Silvertones. I'll give them a go in the Tweaker and hold off on taking a _smoke 'em if you got 'em_ attitude with my beater 1482 for now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well according to Alan and the tube specs on the 6K6, you should be able to use them in any 6V6 application, with just less total output power.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well according to Alan and the tube specs on the 6K6, you should be able to use them in any 6V6 application, with just less total output power.



I compared the rating chart and saw the 6V6 had the same understated voltage rating. I did some Googling and found someone stating that is because the charts are written at maximum dissipation. The filament rating is nearly identical so no problem there. I'll give them a test drive then.


----------



## mickeydg5

Talking about HI-Fi crowd but who is buying this? It states that 9 have been sold.
022 400V Mullard Mustard Capacitors for Marshall | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmm??? In that one pic with the test leads on the cap it reads a perfect .022. Pretty darn good for a 10% cap.

Doesn't do anything for me. That's 9 stupid dickheads.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah a perfect .022 and at only $49.99 a piece plus $7.50 shipping.


----------



## narcosis65

I need some help, I'm new to this forum and don't know how everything works yet but here goes...I just bought a used Marshall JCM 900 50W Hi Gain Dual Reverb head and the tubes (preamp and power) seem a little tired. They are all sovtek's 12AX7's(3) and 5881's(2), so obviously the head has been retubed in the past. Any suggestions on replacement brands? The sovtek's seem to break up really fast and seem to be lacking that signature "marshall tone". It could be that they are worn out but they don't sound very warm to me...Compared to my Marshall MG100 HDFX this JCM sounds like crap, this is very sad I know, like I said in the begining of this post I need help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

narcosis65 said:


> I need some help, I'm new to this forum and don't know how everything works yet but here goes...I just bought a used Marshall JCM 900 50W Hi Gain Dual Reverb head and the tubes (preamp and power) seem a little tired. They are all sovtek's 12AX7's(3) and 5881's(2), so obviously the head has been retubed in the past. Any suggestions on replacement brands? The sovtek's seem to break up really fast and seem to be lacking that signature "marshall tone". It could be that they are worn out but they don't sound very warm to me...Compared to my Marshall MG100 HDFX this JCM sounds like crap, this is very sad I know, like I said in the begining of this post I need help!



Hello. Welcome to the forum. I first want to say that the 900DR is of a different design than a traditional Marshall amp. It uses clipping diodes in place of preamp tubes. However, V1 is an important tube and if you have followed me as a lurker, you will know that I recommend a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V1. For the Phase Inverter, I like a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate. You can use current production in V2, although some like to run a good tube in this slot as well.

Going with current production tubes instead of NOS, I would recommend a Tung-Sol, Preferred Series 7025, or TAD 7025S for V1, a high gain EH in the PI and a Chinese Shuguang or another EH in V2.

I would replace the 5881's with TAD 6L6GC's.

Once you get new tubes in this amp and the bias set properly, it should blow away the MG100.

FYI-Myself and others here are not big fans of Sovtek tubes. They are on the bottom of the barrel of Russian made tubes.


----------



## narcosis65

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello. Welcome to the forum. I first want to say that the 900DR is of a different design than a traditional Marshall amp. It uses clipping diodes in place of preamp tubes. However, V1 is an important tube and if you have followed me as a lurker, you will know that I recommend a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V1. For the Phase Inverter, I like a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate. You can use current production in V2, although some like to run a good tube in this slot as well.
> 
> Going with current production tubes instead of NOS, I would recommend a Tung-Sol, Preferred Series 7025, or TAD 7025S for V1, a high gain EH in the PI and a Chinese Shuguang or another EH in V2.
> 
> I would replace the 5881's with TAD 6L6GC's.
> 
> Once you get new tubes in this amp and the bias set properly, it should blow away the MG100.
> 
> FYI-Myself and others here are not big fans of Sovtek tubes. They are on the bottom of the barrel of Russian made tubes.


Thanks for the quick reply, I really appreciate it. What do you think about these tubes? www.thetubestore.com - Electro-Harmonix 12AX7-EH Audio Tubes
I found the preferred series on this site no problem, but the EH listing doesn't say if they are hihg gain. Is there a difference?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, the Preferred Series is sold exclusively by The Tube Store, Canada.

When ordering the EH, ask for one with a higher value on the tube, "or" order it from the Tube Depot, Memphis. There is a drop down box with the high gain option and the base price is a little less than the Tube Store. Don't let anyone try to tell you it needs to be balanced. 

Electro Harmonix Tubes


----------



## narcosis65

Got it, thanks a million Marty! I just made two separate orders one from the tube store and the other from tube depot. I am getting these tubes first (as my budget allows) Do you think it is ok to run these with the old power tubes until I can afford to get new power tubes and a bias? Or should I wait until I can get the whole thing retubed and biased?


----------



## mickeydg5

You can swap out or roll your preamp tubes anytime.
When the power tubes are purchased, those will have to be intalled and get a new bias or bias check.


----------



## narcosis65

Thanks, yeah I have alredy rotated the crappy sovtek's around to no avail. I have several preamp tubes on order, once I get them I am going to start experimenting. It won't be long until I can get new power tubes and a bias. What is a reasonable price for a bias check/adjust?


----------



## MartyStrat54

As soon as you can afford better power tubes do it. I always recommend that once a used amp is bought, it should be retubed, because you have no idea what condition the tubes are in. In this case, "you save" all the old tubes for backup and troubleshooting.

As long as the Sovtek power tubes are maintaining a proper bias, they are good to go. 

If you are tight on money, I would recommend the JJ E34L. That is a popular power tube for the money.

Your 87 has to be opened up to bias. It could be around $40 for bench time for the bias.


----------



## narcosis65

I thought that this head needed mods to accept the E34L's It has 5881's now...6L6's and 5881's are virtually the same right? but E34L's are different? Enlighten me I'm still fairly new to the world of tubes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Excuse me, that was my error. I forgot that you had 5881's. I recommended the TAD 6L6GC's for that amp.

You cannot use EL34's.


----------



## narcosis65

ok that's what I thought...Thanks again Marty. Do you know any members in the seattle area who could possibly recomend a good tech for the biasing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Get a hold of JOE.

Marshall Amp Forum - View Profile: solarburnDSL50


----------



## wakjob

narcosis65 said:


> ok that's what I thought...Thanks again Marty. Do you know any members in the seattle area who could possibly recomend a good tech for the biasing?



You're gonna love your 900 after the new tubes are installed and biased correctly. Great amps. Don't let anyone tell you different. 

Maybe some time down the road, if you're willing to spend a bit of money, call Marty and get that Black Plate and an Amperex from him. They sound phenomenal in those DR's.


----------



## solarburn

Shit man I don't know any locals. I learned to bias my own that's why I don't know any. Sorry I can't help. See what ya find on a internet search for locals.


----------



## narcosis65

wakjob said:


> You're gonna love your 900 after the new tubes are installed and biased correctly. Great amps. Don't let anyone tell you different.
> 
> Maybe some time down the road, if you're willing to spend a bit of money, call Marty and get that Black Plate and an Amperex from him. They sound phenomenal in those DR's.


 
So Marty, what kind of cost would I be looking at to aquire the tubes mentioned above?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a matched set of TAD 6L6GC's are $49.90 plus shipping from the Tube Store, Canada.

You need to contact me by PM if you are interested in buying anything from me.


----------



## solarburn

Hey gang!

I finally bought a pair of CP Mullard EL84's. I've tried most of the CP versions except Gold Lions or EH's.

Put these in my OR15 which up until now only sounded good nuff with TADS. The Mullards have a great crunch and the mids shine through. Made the Orange accentuate a bit more like a Marshall...but still Orange of course. So do the TADS. Between the 2 its a toss up. Both work for me. I believe the Mullards are a bit cheaper though.

From the bridge pick up(EMG 57)to the 2 pedals I'm currently boosting with(Plexitone/Rook OD)I'm forcing upper mids on the OR's vintage voicing and its meshing. I mean upper mids the amp's mid knob doesn't cover. 

I have an RFT in V1, Miniwatt in V2 and the PI. To finish this chain of "Toner Boner" off its all plugged into a 412 loaded with G12M's. I'm really liking the mixture. It's all playing well together. And don't get me wrong I love the OR's own voicing too. I'm just shaping it...cause I know how to externally...without a tech!LOL

I give them a thumbs up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I've used the Mullard EL84's and thought they were okay. I recommend them to guys looking for "less" headroom and "more" crunch.

From the Tube Store: "Blues guys will go crazy for the reissue Mullard EL84 tube. It has the least clean headroom and can be pushed into distortion with aggressive playing. When pushed into distortion the Mullard EL84 tube has a softer, creamier overdrive that is more musical than other EL84 tubes and is the tube to pick if you want dirt."

That all sounds good, but some people say they get mushy with an OD pedal.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I've used the Mullard EL84's and thought they were okay. I recommend them to guys looking for "less" headroom and "more" crunch.
> 
> From the Tube Store: "Blues guys will go crazy for the reissue Mullard EL84 tube. It has the least clean headroom and can be pushed into distortion with aggressive playing. When pushed into distortion the Mullard EL84 tube has a softer, creamier overdrive that is more musical than other EL84 tubes and is the tube to pick if you want dirt."
> 
> That all sounds good, but some people say they get mushy with an OD pedal.



After the description I thought they'd break up more and maybe get muddy like a C5 does when its own gain its added but they act a lot like the TADS. Took my Rook OD no problem but the OD's I have are very clear and articulate. Like I said I could use these or the TADS in the orange. I didnt find them particularly creamy either. The JJ's and RFT's were a bit dull in the Orange where both those sound good in my Monza or NT. the OR seems to really like a crunchy power tube, not a smooth one. 

Weird...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just goes to show that each amp treats tubes differently.


----------



## solarburn

Well I actually thought it my be a bust but I wanted to know. Figured there would be too much break up to like. Turns out they cut just fine. I admit I was surprised. Hell I figured if anything they would warm the NT up. It still sits...


----------



## BobPeabody67

So tubes in my Randall went out... They're Ruby 6L6's. I wanna stay with either 6L6's or try some EL34's. What are some good brands that sound good, but also last longer? Any suggestions?


----------



## Riffraff

Riffraff said:


> Okay, talk to me about swapping a pair of 6V6GT's with a pair of 6K6GT tubes. I picked up a pair of Sylvania's to try in my T15 but I think I would rather run them in my 1482. It would benefit from the reduced output and earlier break up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know the charts say they are rated for 250v but I've also seen reference to 315v. The 1482 puts 346v on the plates. I've read the Sylvania's are a little hardier but I'm still putting about 30v more on them than they are rated for. I really don't want to take out my OT in the process. Should I take any precautions? Alan, I think you said you've run them in your Tweaker and that runs a similar voltage....how did they do?



I tried these in my '67 today. I also put a nice old Tung-Sol I got in the mail yesterday in V1 an a Baldwin labeled long plate Sylvania in V2. I have to say it sounds fantastic! It's be best this amp has sounded since I got it. I actually dropped the boost, it's better without it....just jumper and crank it.  
I put a Hall of Fame reverb between the jumpered channels and it's perfect. Thank you gentlemen!


----------



## MartyStrat54

BobPeabody67 said:


> So tubes in my Randall went out... They're Ruby 6L6's. I wanna stay with either 6L6's or try some EL34's. What are some good brands that sound good, but also last longer? Any suggestions?



Is the Randall designed to run both 6L6GC's and EL34's? If not, you just can't put EL34's in the amp. You'll have problems if you do.

Try some TAD 6L6GC-STR's. Highly recommended.

www.thetubestore.com - TAD 6L6GC-STR Audio Tubes


----------



## BobPeabody67

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is the Randall designed to run both 6L6GC's and EL34's? If not, you just can't put EL34's in the amp. You'll have problems if you do.
> 
> Try some TAD 6L6GC-STR's. Highly recommended.
> 
> www.thetubestore.com - TAD 6L6GC-STR Audio Tubes



Monsters of High Gain - Randall RT100 - YouTube

According to about 0:57, you can put EL34's in the 100W version and according to Randall, the only difference between the two is 50Ws and two power tubes. So I'd say yes. I used to have a PDF of the manual, but I seem to have misplaced that...


----------



## RiverRatt

Riffraff said:


> I tried these in my '67 today. I also put a nice old Tung-Sol I got in the mail yesterday in V1 an a Baldwin labeled long plate Sylvania in V2. I have to say it sounds fantastic! It's be best this amp has sounded since I got it. I actually dropped the boost, it's better without it....just jumper and crank it.
> I put a Hall of Fame reverb between the jumpered channels and it's perfect. Thank you gentlemen!



You should have said something earlier... I would have sent you some 6K6GT's. I still will, for that matter. I found several in that huge stockpile of tubes I picked up last fall. Glad they worked out well. I was researching them for use in the Tweaker when I found that several Fender guys liked them in place of 6V6GT's.

I think I mentioned it here, maybe not, but IMO they give the Tweaker 15 a distinctly EL84 flavor. Much more power tube distortion and compression than any other octal tube I've tried. I have a pair of 6Y6G's that I tried in the Tweaker and it's the only tube that I didn't feel comfortable running. I was getting some strange sounds and pulled them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BobPeabody67 said:


> According to about 0:57, you can put EL34's in the 100W version and according to Randall, the only difference between the two is 50Ws and two power tubes. So I'd say yes. I used to have a PDF of the manual, but I seem to have misplaced that...



It must be like the YCS100 Traynor that I had. It would run anything except 6V6's. They must put in components that will handle the characteristics of the various tubes. Common ground so to speak. I can't remember what the plate voltage was in the Traynor. I think it was 470VDC, but you could run KT88's in it if you wanted too.


----------



## BobPeabody67

What would KT88's do to the tone? I know EL34's are known as the "British tube" referring to Marshall tone. 6L6's are more "metal". Where do KT88's fall into play?


----------



## MartyStrat54

HiFi...LOL.

I never have owned a KT88 amp. I have played them and most do not have an adequate power supply to run them full out. I will say they have a lot of headroom. The Marshall 2203 Kerry King uses them, but again, I think Marshall is basically running a 100 watt power supply. Just like 6550's in a Marshall amp. They are biased at 25 watts and ran cold. If KT88's are on a dual rail power supply (plate/grid), they will put out an easy 50 watts each and the Kerry King ain't no 200 watt amp. Kerry plays metal. He calls the amp, "The Beast." If the KT88's were putting out 200 watts, it would be a beast, but it is another example of a powerful tube running cold.


----------



## RiverRatt

Running power tubes cold isn't always a bad thing, though. 6L6GC's are ran cold in some of the best sounding amps I've heard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you mean low B+ or a cold bias?

Most 6L6GC amps have a B+ in the 420-450 range.

I do recall that some model of Marshall, they ran out of the OE power tranny and to keep the line going, they subbed it with a PT that put out about 425 rectified. People who own them swear they have an incredible tone.

6550's are too bright for my liking and KT88's are too expensive.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cold bias. Most of the Fenders I've had and kept for any time were running close to 500v on the plates and the bias voltage was low. I don't think I ever biased a set of tubes until I got my first Marshall.


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## MartyStrat54

Well you can't say Fender didn't run their amp designs full blast. 500VDC on the plates is right at the top of the specs. The only amp that I have with over 500VDC is my TSL 602. It has around 520 for the B+. That is the reason I run Mullard xF2's in it.

When it comes to bias, it's like anything else, it's a matter of personal preference.

Some like it COLD and some like it HOT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and some of those old Music Man amps have insanely high plate voltage. They eat up CP power tubes. Over 600VDC.


----------



## RiverRatt

Does anyone recognize these KT66's? They showed up at a little music store where I shop for used tubes 2 or 3 times a year. He had these the last time I was there. They are unlike any other KT66 I've seen. I found references to a KT66-ND on the Audio Asylum forums but no pictures. I wonder if that's what these are?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well they are probably some vintage Chinese model from the early 70's. The Chinese have been making tubes for a long time.

Do these have a top and bottom getter?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, they have a bottom and a top getter.

Another question: I can't test 6550's on my TV-7. I'm about 99% sure it's an issue with the filament current supplied. As soon as I hit the test button, it goes way up where it's supposed to be and then falls off sharply. I had the same problem testing that Western Electric 300B.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you know what sort of voltage the TV-7 puts out when testing a power tube? I've always wondered about what my 707 puts out. Did you ever look at the power transformer in your 747? If it was anything like the 707, it had numerous taps of varying voltages.

I have tested 6550's on my 707 a lot. Maybe you should have kept the 747.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to get out my Hickok 800 and see what it does. Yeah, I sometimes wish I'd kept the 747 but when I sold it I made $200 profit. I can't walk away from $200 profit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah if I get motivated, I'll put a tester on the 707 and see if the plate voltage is the same for all 6L6/6550 tubes. Then I'll check to see what voltage is on a 12AX7.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, the Hickok works. With new being 5000, they are both testing right at 6000. I think I forgot to check the line voltage. I haven't used this tester in awhile.


----------



## RiverRatt

You have to admit; Hickok made a nice looking tester.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, if you get a nice one. I've seen a lot that were battered.


----------



## MM54

Man that thing's clean. I thought my 707 was shining but that puts it to shame.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes shiny and it came with a complimentary matcing guitar pick.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was wondering if anybody would comment on the pick...


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## mickeydg5

Matching pick.

*Whaaet*........is your favorite color?


----------



## johnfv

Well played sir. What do you mean, African or European Swallow???

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWS8Mg-JWSg]Monty Python and the Holy Grail: 3 Questions - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## paradox

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh and some of those old Music Man amps have insanely high plate voltage. They eat up CP power tubes. Over 600VDC.



I agree, I worked on an HD130 for a buddy of mine - I measured almost 700 on the plates!!! Was trying to keep the budget down for him, the quad of EH EL34s I put in it are still going after two years but I cross my fingers every time he fires it up at a jam!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wouldn't think those EH's would last that long. You must have got some good ones.

My TSL602 runs over 510 on the plates and I have NOS Mullard EL34's in it for that reason.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got some interesting pentodes. I have boxes and boxes of military 5672 sub-mini pentodes. I think the output is around 65 milliwatts. There's a DIY pedal that uses two of these called the "Pentadriver". I'm going to scrounge up the parts and give this a try. If it works, I think I have the components to build a dozen or two of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great. Now you are trying to put Hot Tubes out of business.


----------



## paradox

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wouldn't think those EH's would last that long. You must have got some good ones.
> 
> My TSL602 runs over 510 on the plates and I have NOS Mullard EL34's in it for that reason.



The guy is a garage jam buddy and maybe the amp gets used once or twice a month at most, less in the winter when no one wants to play in the free standing unheated garage (even in fla)! Thank god its got a window a/c unit tho..lol..

I told him when I got it up and runnin that CP tubes aren't going to last long in that amp but he said go with it. It was funny right after I recapped it and replaced the tubes (one was dead) it worked for a month or so and died - I was like sh$$$t! Turned out the tiny choke MM put in there had opened! Last jam a few months back it was still working and I'll just keep crossing the fingers on jam nights!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great. Now you are trying to put Hot Tubes out of business.



Nah, I don't have the patience for delicate solder work like that. Once in awhile is OK but my eyes aren't wanting to cooperate. If I get something far enough away that I can focus on it, it's too far away to work on. I saw a fly-tying setup that I should have bought. It has a small vise and a couple of arms with clamps on them, and a big-ass magnifying glass for close-up work.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got two of those, brand new. I can't even remember why I wanted them.


----------



## MM54

Hell, we have setups here that you solder under a microscope for those pesky surface-mount components, you know, the ones that look like dust on a board.

I'll stick with my turret boards and panel-mount hardware


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt-I worked as an electronics tech for a government funded microwave oscillator company. These oscillators are used in guided missile systems. They work in the GHz range (billions of cycles per second). The oscillators were in a 2" x 2" aluminum housing and the internal area had to be milled out to "tune" the housing. I used a stereo microscope and the components were very tiny. The capacitor was .0020 by .0020 and the resistor was .0015 long. What was more amazing is how they make shit this small that has specified electrical properties. I got pretty good at soldering these oscillators up, but that was back when I had real good eyesight.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, since you're giving me shit, I have to tell you that I bought my new strat today. It's the same sienna burst that I sold a couple of months ago. I walked into my favorite pawn shop today and there she was. I thought it had to be fate. I immediately went and got the cash out of an ATM and was out the door with it in 5 minutes. Now I don't have to try out a bunch of guitars looking for the right one. I already know I like this one, and it didn't hurt that I paid $100 less for it than I sold it for. I'm going to put the money I saved toward a set of Texas Specials, which is what I should have done before I sold the guitar. It just needs a good set of pickups to make it great. 

The really unusual thing is, this is the first time ever that I've bought back a guitar that I once owned. Not just a similar one, but the exact guitar I sold. I played it for 3 hours this evening, wondering the whole time why I sold it. Now if that hot rod flame strat shows back up...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you sell the Strat to an individual and then he pawned it and you found it? If not, tell me how it ended up in this particular pawn shop you visit?

That's just crazy. I spent over five years trying to locate my stolen 69 Gold Top. I should of had you with me, I would have found it in three hours.


----------



## RiverRatt

I actually sold it to the guy who owns the pawn shop. He kept it for awhile and sold it to another guy, then that guy came in and pawned it back to him. Apparently he made good money buying it, selling it, taking it back, then selling it back to me. Also, he gives me good deals because I always come in there with nice stuff to trade.


----------



## iron broadsword

Alright, time to buy some new glass for my 4100. Power tube time.. I love the Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR's that I have in there now, and the EHx 6l6's that were in it when I bought it sounded great, but I am wondering if I should try something else just to see. I use the B channel more than the other and am not necessarily looking for earlier power tube breakup.. loving the sound, but thinking about Sovtek 6L6WXT+'s.. thoughts?


----------



## mickeydg5

iron broadsword said:


> Alright, time to buy some new glass for my 4100. Power tube time.. I love the Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR's that I have in there now, and the EHx 6l6's that were in it when I bought it sounded great, but I am wondering if I should try something else just to see. I use the B channel more than the other and am not necessarily looking for earlier power tube breakup.. loving the sound, but thinking about Sovtek 6L6WXT+'s.. thoughts?


 
Then go for the Tung-Sol reissue 7581. No one ever tries those or talks about them. Check them out.

http://www.thetubestore.com/6L6-Tube-Review

And there are the SED =C= tubes while they last.


----------



## iron broadsword

The review sounds great but they're more expensive than I was hoping for... Idk. The more reading I do the more I'm leaning towards trying the Sovteks.


----------



## iron broadsword

Update - Just pulled the trigger on the Sovteks.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Has anybody heard of KT77's burning up DSL transformers? Is this for real?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The KT77 is a sub for an EL34 just like a 6CA7 is a sub for an EL34. All of these tubes will run fine in a DSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

iron broadsword said:


> Update - Just pulled the trigger on the Sovteks.



Well, I got in here a little late. I'll be interested in your review of the Sovtek's. Personally, I don't like any Sovtek, power or preamp. I was going to recommend the TAD 6L6GC STR's.


----------



## MM54

I was going to suggest having the poweramp converted back to EL34's like it's supposed to (ie was designed to) be and getting the EH 6CA7's. It's glorious every time to turn it on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> From Tube Review: I installed a set (7581's) in an Ampeg V4 in lieu of the stock 7027 tubes and the sound was great. Big and snappy, while remaining warm and having good note definition.



Mickey, I'm a little confused here. I thought that the pin out (8HY) on a 7027 was different than a 6L6GC (7AC)? If the 7581 is being sold as a 6L6GC, how come it can be put in an Ampeg amp that uses 7027's?

I have always liked the 7027 and I have several vintage RCA amps that use them. They were designed to be the new super tube, but never really got that popular. Another victim of the transistor. Also, the plate dissipation of a 7027 is identical to a 6L6GC, so it was false advertising back then that made claim to more power out of a 7027. At one time, I was thinking about converting a TSL100 to use 7027's, but it would still just be a 100 watt amp, so I decided it wasn't worth the effort. Also, very few brands of 7027's to choose from for tube rolling, although I have two matched quartets of RCA 7027A's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> In nearly all cases the Tesla, Svetlana and Philips 6L6 (or 7581) will work in amps that use 7027, without any socket rewiring at all, and it'll save you some money to boot. The only issue is the socket wiring, there may be a few amps out there (but not many, and definitely not Ampegs) that use the extra pins that 7027 has, but not the ones 6L6 does. Scroll down to the bottom of the page for instructions on how simple it is to rewire 7027 sockets for 6L6-GC or 7581. 7027 will still work if you make these socket wiring changes.



Help, My Amp Has 7027's!

According to this article, most Ampegs are wired in such a way as to use a 6L6GC as a sub for 7027's, but they advise you check this to be sure.


----------



## mickeydg5

Both the 7027 and 7581 are variants of the 6L6GB & GC tubes. They are all used in power amplifier applications and are practically the same. The 7027A and 7581A were the last to be added to the family while boasting 35 watt plates and 5 watt screens. The 7027A can handle higher voltages than the others, 50-100 volts more.

The 7581 has an identical base pinout to the 6L6 being the 7AC type where pins #1 and #6 are not used.
The 7027 base pinout is 8HY which uses the same pinouts for electrodes as the 6L6 with the exception that pin #1 is tied to pin #4 at the screen and pin #6 is tied to pin #5 at the grid.

So before any swapout between a 6L6GC/7581 type tube is made with a 7027 type tube the pin wiring must be checked to make sure that the tube sockets are wired properly. As long as there are no extra wires or straddled components on the power tube sockets a 7027 can be dropped into a 6L6GC/7581 amplifier, but it is always good to check the wiring.

I think that GE, RCA and Sylvania manufactured 7027 tubes.
GE, RCA, Sylvania and Tung-Sol all maunfactured 7581 tubes.
Both the 7027 and 7581 types have been manufactured just as long as the 6L6GC but are not as popular while the 7027 seen a good bit and the 7581 the least.

Ah well these are my observations and what I know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I always heard that the 7027(A) was basically the same as a 6L6GC. Same wattage and dissipation. Back in the day, they advertised them as being superior to the 6L6GC. Regardless, I think that they would have been more popular if they had made them with the 7AC pin out so they could be a direct replacement.


----------



## mickeydg5

When it comes to those tubes especially the plain 7027 I think it is best to look up the datasheet of the manufacturer. If I remember right different manufacturers had various maximum plate wattage ratings and maximum plate voltages may have been a little different too. So do not just assume that they are all the same.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I looked at a couple and they were identical. However, there may be a slight difference in output.


----------



## paul-e-mann

pedecamp said:


> Has anybody heard of KT77's burning up DSL transformers? Is this for real?





MartyStrat54 said:


> The KT77 is a sub for an EL34 just like a 6CA7 is a sub for an EL34. All of these tubes will run fine in a DSL.



Trace at Voodoo said this about KT77 and DSL in another thread, but I hadn't heard this anywhere else and wanted to confirm or deny this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I read that post and I just now went back and looked at it again. Trace states he had a dozen DSL/TSL amps with PT failure. The common factor was they all were fitted with KT77's. He did not specify the brand, but he did say that the JJ's tend to pull more heater current.

He also goes on to say that the tube data sheets could be wrong/outdated.

I mean personally, there isn't that much difference in heater current draw between an EL34 and a KT77. Apparently, Trace feels there is.

Now I will say that the transformers in the DSL/TSL were marginal at best. Most guys who like these amps do a transformer upgrade and it really makes a difference, most notably with the OPT upgrade.

My opinion rests with being on this forum since early 2009 and reading about all the guys who have used KT77's in their DSL/TSL amps without any PT failure.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/53668-mixing-power-tubes-jj-77s-e34ls.html

I feel if there was a genuine problem, we would see many threads/posts about this matter. Don't you agree?


----------



## mickeydg5

I think that I have read enough about filament/heater circuit failure in the JCM2000 series to say it is more than likely design and parts fault of the amplifiers. The JCM2000 series seems to have a lot of issues and problems.

If JJ's KT77 tubes have heaters that are out of specification then that is a quality control issue. JJ should be made aware of a problem so that the issue can be handled.

I would also like to mention that the series in question, JCM2000, has fuses in the filament/heater circuits. This means the fusing system is failing and maybe Marshall should be made aware of that.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I looked at a couple and they were identical. However, there may be a slight difference in output.


 
This is what I was getting at for 6L6GC, 7027 and 7581 maximum ratings plate and screen comparisons.
The information was taken from data sheets and tube manuals.
There is not a lot if information provided by Sylvania however.

*6L6GC :*
RCA, GE, TS, JJ :
plate 500V 30W, screen 450V 5W
SED :
plate 500V 30W, screen 500V 5W

*7027 :*
RCA, GE
plate 450V 25W, screen 400V 3.5W
JJ
plate 500V 30W, screen 450V 5W

*7027A :*
RCA, GE
plate 600V 35W, screen 500V 5W
SYL
plate ???V 27.5W, screen ???V ?W

*7581 :*
RCA, GE, TS
plate 500V 30W, screen 450V 5W

*7581A :*
RCA, GE, TS
plate 500V 35W, screen 450V 5W
SYL
plate ???V 35W, screen ???V ?W


----------



## iron broadsword

MM54 said:


> I was going to suggest having the poweramp converted back to EL34's like it's supposed to (ie was designed to) be and getting the EH 6CA7's. It's glorious every time to turn it on.



I've thought about doing that (I'm able to just do it myself) but I really enjoy the amp as it is. Maybe down the road if I want to really try something new, but up until my 6l6's started their swan song they sounded amazing to my ears. 




MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I got in here a little late. I'll be interested in your review of the Sovtek's. Personally, I don't like any Sovtek, power or preamp. I was going to recommend the TAD 6L6GC STR's.



Noted for next time at least. When I was looking up what people were using in their DR's, the Sovtek seemed really common and people had lots of good stuff to say about em'. I'll check out the TAD's for next time, although I can't stand the TADEL84 in my Class 5. Different tube, different amp though.. haha.


----------



## paul-e-mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> My opinion rests with being on this forum since early 2009 and reading about all the guys who have used KT77's in their DSL/TSL amps without any PT failure.
> 
> I feel if there was a genuine problem, we would see many threads/posts about this matter. Don't you agree?



I agree. Its been on my mind since he said it. The last thing I need is an expensive amp repair but I think you've made a good point. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Mickey, out of the tubes you listed, it looks like the 7027A's are the bad boys of the bunch. I have two RCA PA amps made in the 50's that use the 7027A's. These are older amps that still call for a "7025" in V1. They also use a 6SL7, so it was made when they were transitioning from octal to 9 pin. One is a 35 watt and the other is a 50 watt. Neither amp is pushing the 7027A's that hard. Cathode biased. I have both amps loaded with all RCA tubes. A similar amp went for $375 on EBAY. I had a chance to buy another 50 watt and forgot to follow it. It went for under $200. I could have had a 50 watt per side tube stereo system. Anyway, they are cool looking amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Look at the frigging iron on this RCA amp. Holy cow. No wonder the electronics industry went to transistors. This thing could give someone a hernia.

RCA Amplifier Model MI 12182

I'm thinking PT, OPT, choke and separate heater filament.


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## MartyStrat54

A pair of RCA monsters. $5000.

Vintage RCA Tube Amplifiers from 1948 Berkshire Aapu 1 | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Look how massive this pair is. British RCA. All that iron and only 12 watts output.

RCA LMI 32216 Power Amplifier RCA Great Britain Ltd "New Orthophonic HF" | eBay


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## mickeydg5

A set of 7027 amplifiers for stereo would be cool.
Damn that is a lot of iron in those amplifiers. The Berkshires weigh in at 82 lbs each. Wow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I believe shipping was by freight only. Gasp!


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## okbassplayerguy

Hey Marty, I've been reading through this thread and was wondering if I could get your opinion on tube choice for a Marshall amp I just bought. A friend of mine picked up a JTM60(3X10) recently that wasn't working. He got it for little-o nothing. What he found was the V1 tube was bad, so he stuck a spare tube he had laying around in it and it works fine, and sounds really good. He let me have the amp for $250, because he knew I had been wanting a Marshall amp for a long time. After reading about the preamp tubes being the starting point for experimenting, I thought that this position would be a good place to start.

So, the amp currently has the "no name" tube in V1, what may be the original "Marshall"ECC83 tubes in the other positions and JJ E34L power tubes. That's how they are listed, not EL34. 

Got any suggestions on tubes to try? Any advice would be appreciated.

Ed


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Marty,
Another point I forgot to mention in the first post, I assume that the JJ's are not the stock tubes and I have no way of knowing if the amp was re-biased. I have read that the JTM60 has a 100K bias pot, VR101 I think. Is that correct.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice amp. My good friend Alan just scored the exact same amp. You didn't say if you are wanting vintage/NOS tubes or current production? How does the amp sound right now? 

If those are the original preamp tubes, most have a code on the tube. You can go to the "Workshop" section and there is a sticky that will tell you what brand the tube is. Generally in those other slots it will be a JJ. 

Right now, my favorite current production 12AX7 for V1 is the TAD 7025S, but they cost $38. You want the best tube you can afford in V1. It sets the table for the main tone of the amp.

The JJ E34L tubes are very popular. Really good for 80's rock. 

Your friend made a great score. Before I moved, I got a TSL602 for $150. Same problem, the V1 tube was shot. I made out like a bandit on that deal.

If you want to start hanging out over at the Preamp Tube thread, there are a lot of great guys over there and you will pick up a lot of information.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll get Alan over here if I can. If I remember right, the bias pot on that amp is a little tricky to access. You have to pull the chassis out all the way and then it still is a bitch to get to.

I'll let Alan put his two cents in on this.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I would be willing to go with an NOS tube in the V1 position. As I said earlier, the amp sounds really nice, both clean and overdriven. I have a AC muffin fan on order that I am going to mount on the bottom side of the tube cover to draw heat off the power tubes, just as insurance.

After experimenting with the V1 position, would you try something else in the other 3 preamp positions. As I said, they have Marshall logo on them, so I figure they are original.

I will check out the Preamp Tube thread for more info. Thanks again.

Ed


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah go over there. Alan isn't online, but he has had his amp for a little while and he can tell you more about it. I'm sure we can get you set up with some better tube choices for the preamp.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Thanks again.


----------



## RickyLee

I looked around online for some info, but nothing to what I figured would be correct.

I am wondering how long the valve brand TAD or Tube Amp Doctor has been around? I picked up an early 70's Traynor 100W amp that has two TAD EL34B and two Sylvania 6CA7 USA valves that gave me instant Wood when I seen those two 6CA7 valves. I have yet to experience the Sylvania 6CA7. Hopefully they are strong, as they tested good on my basic tester. 

The TAD EL34B was said from a few sites to be the same as Ruby EL34 BSTR, which I did verify against one I have already. There was a difference in the base color slightly and the getter arm support was longer with the getter up a bit higher on this older EL34B.

So just wondering how long these EL34B Chinese valves have been in production?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ricky, TAD is a German based company that designs all the tubes and then they are manufactured in China. They are very good tubes and I recommend them all the time. In fact, the TAD 7025S is my favorite CP tube for V1, but it costs $38. (Of course the Northern Electric 12AX7 is $58!)

However, TAD does not make an EL34. So the one's you have are probably relabeled and could be Ruby's. Remember, Ruby does not make tubes either. They buy a lot of Chinese tubes, perform their own tests and then retail them.

At on time I was neck deep in Sylvania 6CA7's. I even had a pair of rare triple getter 6CA7's. Try finding those. I sold them to a forum member. How many getters does your tubes have?


----------



## RickyLee

These 6CA7's have the two getters at 45 degrees. I might try these out in my SL-X that already has two JJ 6CA7's. Then I can compare those two against each other. 

This amp I am getting has not arrived yet. The seller shipped the power valves ahead in a separate box/shipment. But he stated the valves were good. All four tested good in my old Heathkit tetster.

Thing that baffles me though is the grading or test numbers on these TAD's vs the Ruby's. The TAD has PC:31 TC:1088. While the Ruby has PC:45 TC:5275.

I am figuring that is plate current & trans conductance. But going off my bad memory and what Wilder had explained about trans conductance, I do not see how two of the same type valves can have that number (TC) off so much between them.

Or is it each companies translation of it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It very well be the type of tester they use. Over on the Preamp Tube thread, we all know what tube testers we own and what the numbers mean.

When I have used tubes like that, the best thing is to stick in an amp and see how they bias.

I actually ran a Sylvania 6CA7 and a Mullard xF2 EL34 in my TSL602. It was okay, but I went with the Mullards in that amp.

The dual getter Sylvania's are nice tubes and they last forever. I did a comparison of them versus the EH 6CA7 and at lower volumes the SYL was a better tube. When cranked they both started sounded similar, with the SYL being less compressed.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Hey Marty,
This may be a little off-topic, but I wanted to show you something I had stuck back it the garage, and wanted to get your opinion on, relative to the tubes. Here is the link to one like mine:

Cool RARE VM 160 Microphone Phono Guitar Harp Amp Voice of Music | eBay

Mine has two RCA (usa made) 12AX7's, two 6v6's, one GE and one Delco (I think) and a tube rectifier, 5Y3 that I haven't checked the brand on. I think these are probably all old stock tubes, and was wondering if the RCA's would be appropriate to put in my JTM60 combo. This amp was made in 1954.

Thanks,

Ed


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sure, those older RCA's were the better sounding one's. Go for it. At least you will be able to tell if they are still good or not.


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, any of you Fender amp folks should be able to field this one. I have my Deluxe Reverb RI running a pair of 6K6 GT but I'm not as happy with the results as I thought I would be. It sounds very good but it didn't noticeably lower the headroom.

What tubes can this amp handle without mods? I remember guys running 6L6GC's in the old ones and I'd think that a 6L6GB/5881 pair would be OK. I haven't opened it up to check the plate voltage - I need to do that tonight. What do you guys think about loading a 6V6 amp with different tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can stick a 6L6GC in there, but it will be running cold. You probably have a plate voltage of around 285 to 300VDC. It will probably not provide what you are looking for. It will probably be more sterile sounding. You might be better off trying 5881's or any early version of the 6L6.

Also, how would you bias it? Would you bias it based on the output of a 6V6? That would be scary.

There was a guy just a week ago that I commented on his thread. He was running 6L6GC's in a 6V6 amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay I looked in my post archives and found it. He had a 6V6 amp that he put 6L6GC in it. However, he was wanting to know if you could take a 6L6GC amp and put 6V6's in it to reduce power.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/54790-6v6-place-6l6-5881-a.html


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you can stick a 6L6GC in there, but it will be running cold. You probably have a plate voltage of around 285 to 300VDC. It will probably not provide what you are looking for. It will probably be more sterile sounding. You might be better off trying 5881's or any early version of the 6L6.
> 
> Also, how would you bias it? Would you bias it based on the output of a 6V6? That would be scary.
> 
> There was a guy just a week ago that I commented on his thread. He was running 6L6GC's in a 6V6 amp.



I've heard of these amps having over 400v on the plates. I've been reading a few threads about how CP 6V6GT's don't last any time at all in the DRRI. I sold my RCA 6L6GB's, but I do have a good pair of 5881's to try. I need to get some numbers before I do any big-time swapping. Being as how Fender went with a 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier, that would go along with a higher B+. Joe sent me a nice 5V4 that I wish I still had, but I let it go with an amp.

Since I never stay close to the topic for long, give me some ideas on what to do with this Baldwin 54A Orga-Sonic. It's in unbelievable condition. My gut feeling is to get the speakers and tubes I want out of it, replace them with CP stuff and sell it to a church or something. Then I get in there and see all those tan Sprague 157P caps and a handful of black beauties, the "stereo" delay (reverb) tank and 4x12AX7 preamp, a 2x6BQ5 amp with 2 12AX7's for the Leslie speaker, the main amp with four 6BQ5's and two more 12AX7's. Then there's the Jensen C12R drivers and the little CTS Leslie speaker with the square magnet. I've been looking here and there and none of this stuff is really high-dollar. If I do like I said and just take the choice cuts, I'd sell it for $200 to $300 and be happy with the deal. Or, should I say "fuck it" and jump in with the wire cutters? I'm really wanting to build a nice cabinet around that little Leslie sim and see what it does.

EDIT: I also found a dozen or so white inductors in the tone generators. I searched for the numbers printed on them but didn't find any info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a tough decision. I hate to see a musical instrument in good condition get the saw. Thing is, they ain't worth much. No one wants a 400 pound bear in their den (no pun intended). The new "electronic keyboards" do more, imitate more sounds and can be put in the back of a van or trunk of a car. 

If you pull all the tubes and replace with CP, you'll have to come up with that extra money and no one will want to buy a non-working organ, let alone an old tube organ.

I think we have more compassion for these old brutes because we love the fact that they represent the days when tubes were king.

I will say, if you gut it and get all the serviceable parts out of it, you will be able to put things together that you want and when you do, the thought of that stripped out organ will be out of your mind.

Gut it!


----------



## mickeydg5

Ratt
I would not run any 6L6 tubes in a 6V6 amplifier like your Deluxe Reverb. The Deluxe Reverb is set up with a little lower plate volt but the kicker is the output. It is a 22 watt amplfier and the output transformer is made for that. A 6L6 is kind of like a bigger badder 6V6 is some ways. The 6L6 type tubes will over power the output and I think you can figure out what that means for your OT and speakers. The 6L6 tubes also use twice the heater current.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. That's a good point. I was going by the fact of people actually doing this and doing it for a long time.

Riddle me this, Mickey. If what you say is true, then why wouldn't it apply to all those guys who put 6550's and KT-88's in their amps? Wouldn't it be the same thing? In essence you are saying that the bigger power tubes would try and draw more power through the power supply, but as we all know, putting KT-88's in a 100 watt Marshall will yield 100 watts out.

Now the fact that the 6L6 draws double the heater current is a good point and one that I should have realized.


----------



## MM54

I already told my story of gutting that old Wurlitzer tube organ, so you can guess my suggestion


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I get the point 

Marty, I'm like you. I know the 6L6GC isn't a replacement for a 6V6GT but in my years working in a music store and my later years as a tube chaser, I have seen many, many, many 6V6 amps running 6L6GC's. I tried to fix an organ for a dude a year or two ago. It was an early 1960's Wurlitzer and had a 2x6V6GT power amp. You guessed it; it was running a pair of Sylvania 6L6GC's and from the looks of them they had been in there for a long time. 

I've auditioned several different power tubes in the Deluxe, and the best ones are a pair of Sylvania 6V6GT's that I couldn't sell on eBay for $15. I've based most of my opinion of 6V6GT's on an old silverface Princeton Reverb I used for years. When you turned the gain above 12 o'clock it didn't get louder, it just compressed more. The DRRI uses the 6V6's to much better effect. They sound huge in that amp! I'm not ready to start posting Deluxe Reverb porn on a Marshall forum, but this is a bad ass amp! I think I mentioned that already but it deserves saying twice. I put the WGS ET65 in it and the tone is *way *improved over the Italian Jensen. I put the two Jensen C12R's in my 2x12. I also have a P12R that I could probably use.

Marty, I replied to your JTM600 tube question but for some reason I can't find my post. The standard Marshall formula works fine. Philips, Raytheon, Sylvania, etc. I noticed that the amp seems to run a little cool on the bias and works very well with Shuguang EL34's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had already read your JTM reply, so if it's gone, no problem. Thanks.

Remember me talking about selling 6V6GT's on EBAY? I had to offer free shipping and I gave them away. Selling used power tubes is a rough business unless you have a dozen Western Electric 300B's.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. That's a good point. I was going by the fact of people actually doing this and doing it for a long time.
> 
> Riddle me this, Mickey. If what you say is true, then why wouldn't it apply to all those guys who put 6550's and KT-88's in their amps? Wouldn't it be the same thing? In essence you are saying that the bigger power tubes would try and draw more power through the power supply, but as we all know, putting KT-88's in a 100 watt Marshall will yield 100 watts out.
> 
> Now the fact that the 6L6 draws double the heater current is a good point and one that I should have realized.


Please understand what I was trying to convey. I stated that I would not run 6L6 family tubes in a Deluxe Reverb. I wasn't saying that you could not but instead tried to inform that it may be an inappropriate idea.

Each power amplifier is designed to operate within parameters. Apart from the general design the two key ingredients here are the tubes and the output transformer. Those two are matched up in operation. So the higher resistance 6V6 tube is matched to an appropriate higher Ra-a OT with a specific bandwidth in mind. Keep in mind that the 6V6 is a lower output tube, less output current and less power. Therefore the OT reflects this being suited for lower power. Also notice that the common two tube 6V6 push-pull is always 30W and below.

Next throw a 6L6 into the same amplifier. This tube has a lower resistance and is capable of more than twice the output current. That could go beyond the capabilities of the OT not to mention a shift in bandwidth due to charactersitic changes.

Now we bring up placing 6550s and KT88s in EL34 amplifiers along with 6L6s. Well these are closer together in a group and are usually managed by the same types of OTs. Notice though that the circuits are tailored for each tube type which will set control of input signal and negative bias for proper operation. We have to remember that Marshall or industry generalize a power output category. We may say "100 WATTS OUTPUT" but in reality each amplifier/tube setup is putting out a different value. Generally they are about 100 watts and our ears will not really hear the power difference.

Which now brings us to a 6L6 in a 6V6 amplifier. Yes we can tailor the circuit to adjust for a lower power stage input signal and proper bias when using the 6L6. That migh be quite a bit of adjustment dependign on the amplifier. This will affect the output sound, probably in a bad way.

And lastly just to mention someting about Fender and the Deluxe Reverb with 6V6 tubes. The 6V6 has a design center for maximum plate voltage of 315-350 volts. Fender had up to 415 volts in the vintage versions and has 391 volts in the reissue version. Maybe that is why it eats 6V6s, , but a JJ is supposed to be 500 volts and EH 450 volts. Now plug a 6L6 into that amplfier with no modifications, .
Well I guess at lower volumes it would not be a problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in the golden days of tubes, the manufacturer's did match up the OPT's to the type of power tubes used. But for a long time now, this is not the case. That is why people who do power tube swaps "rarely" change the OPT. 

I'm not saying your statements are not valid, it's just that I've seen a lot of people plug and play 6L6(types) in 6V6 amps without doing anything. 

And yes I was aware of the high plate voltage of the old DR's, but I didn't know what the Reissue was running.

The CP JJ and EH 6V6's, to me, do not sound like a 6V6. 

And actually, most Marshall's are harder on power tubes due to their design. Here is a quote.



> More commonly found is a pair of EL34s running Class AB1 in push-pull around 375-450V plate voltage and producing 50 watts output (if fixed bias is used), while a quad of EL34s running Class AB1 in push-pull typically run anywhere from 425-500V plate voltage and produces 100 watts output. This configuration is typically found in guitar amplifiers, especially Marshall's and is quite hard on the valves.



Any Marshall 60 watt amp runs over 500V on the plates and this is why I run xF2's in mine.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't really care if it does eat 6V6's. As Marty said, they are cheap tubes... You can't give them away. I have enough to feed it for the foreseeable future, and that's if it has a big appetite!

Tell me about rectifiers then... I know that the DRRI is based on the AB763 revision which apparently is the only one that used a GZ34/5AR4. The others used a 5U4GB which draws 1.1mA more filament current than the GZ34. 

The 5R4 looks good on paper; what would be the drawbacks in its use? It should lower the voltage quite a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you have a 5R4? Are you wanting to take out the CP GZ34 and replace it with NOS?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I was wondering about using the 5R4 to drop the voltage a bit and see what that does to the amp. I believe I have several RCA 5R4's to try. Comparing them to the 5AR4 they look like they should work. They can handle way more AC voltage and the voltage drop is like 65 for the 5R4 as opposed to the 10 or so with the GZ34.

Yes, I would love to run a NOS rectifier but I'd have to sell a kidney to afford a Mullard GZ34. I know they aren't going to improve the tone over a CP rectifier but I'd like the added reliability of the old stuff.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know you guys are probably going to say "I have seen people replace 5AR4 tubes with 5R4." 

But you have to pay attention to plate current with tube rectifiers.
The recommended input capacitor value for various 5R4 tubes is between 4 and 20uF.
The Deluxe Reverb RI has 39uF.

Also a 5U4 has a heater current of 3A and a 5AR4 has a heater current of 1.9A That is a 1.1A difference.

Just mentioning this stuff; be careful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree with you. I have always been cautious about subbing rectifier tubes. It's best to go with what the amp was designed for.


----------



## RickyLee

This is Deja Vu for me. Remember this rectifier subject you had with me Mickey regarding my '73 Bandmaster Reverb LOL.

@RiverRatt: I have a set of the 6K6GT's that I have yet to try. I was going to try them in my Marshall Studio 15 later. Have you tried 6EY6 yet? I tried the 6EY6 in my Studio 15 and I noticed a slight bit of earlier breakup than the JJ 6V6's as well as less headroom of course. But there is the issue you guys mentioned already of a bit more heater current draw with the 6EY6.

On the subject of output transformers in Fenders, I am about to take the plunge of trying a bigger Bassman style OT or possibly one of my old spare JCM800 50W Drakes, in my Bandmaster Reverb. But actually, I should be going the other way towards the Deluxe Reverb as that is the Fender I have always wanted.



What's the OT size difference between the Bandmaster and the Deluxe?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well it's no real secret that Fender used the same OT between a LOT of models. I'm not familiar with your amp and I can't see fuck-all on this phone. You'd be surprised at how many amps can and did use the Bassman OT. You forget that most of what we now know was still new technology at the time. When something worked and worked well, it quickly became universal. I think you'd better not use the Drakes. Mickey will explain it better I'm sure, but there will be a pretty large mismatch with the primary impedance. IIRC 6L6GC's want to see around 6K and if the Drake is from an EL34 Marshall, it'll have a 3k5 primary impedance.

The 6K6GT seems to be a proven tube. I haven't run across a 6EY6. It looks interesting.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Well it's no real secret that Fender used the same OT between a LOT of models. I'm not familiar with your amp and I can't see fuck-all on this phone. You'd be surprised at how many amps can and did use the Bassman OT. You forget that most of what we now know was still new technology at the time. When something worked and worked well, it quickly became universal. I think you'd better not use the Drakes. Mickey will explain it better I'm sure, but there will be a pretty large mismatch with the primary impedance. IIRC 6L6GC's want to see around 6K and if the Drake is from an EL34 Marshall, it'll have a 3k5 primary impedance.
> 
> The 6K6GT seems to be a proven tube. I haven't run across a 6EY6. It looks interesting.



I should have mentioned that I would possibly put a pair of KT88's in that Bandmaster Reverb if I try the Drake. But I am still holding out for either a Bassman or Twin OT. But of course, there's that issue with money as I just don't have enough of it LOL. I would actually like to buy an aftermarket Bassman with 4/8/16 or even just 4/8 ohm impedance options. 

I do have a Twin OT I could borrow from another project amp I have. The reason I am wanting to put the bigger OT in it, is because of the awesomely sick tone of my Blackface Bassman. That amp is just unreal, but it has a few minor tweaks as well. Jumpering the channels on that thing and running my Plexi Tone pedal up front is just amazing. But I want the built in reverb.



EDIT: Scratch That! Bassman OT with 4/8 impedance options and two of the RCA 6L6GC Black Plates I have stashed away. Now that will be sweet and much safer for the amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

The 73 Bandmaster Reverb had a slightly different OT from a Bassman style. It had a OT of 35-40 watt with about 4k Ra-a.
The Bassman 125A5A had a little higher resistance and power handling values at about 4.2k and 50 watt. The Marshall JCM800 1202-324/784-139 types were around 3.4k and 50 watt.
If you want a little cleaner use the 125A5A OT; a little more harmonic distortion use the 1202-324/784-139 types.

I would not recommend the Deluxe Reverb OT of around 6.6k 20 watts.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> On the subject of output transformers in Fenders, I am about to take the plunge of trying a bigger Bassman style OT or possibly one of my old spare JCM800 50W Drakes, in my Bandmaster Reverb. But actually, I should be going the other way towards the Deluxe Reverb as that is the Fender I have always wanted.



I've had my '65 Deluxe Reverb RI for a couple of weeks now, and it's a phenomenal amp. I put a WGS ET65 speaker in it which made a noticeable improvement. I'm running a pair of Sylvania 6V6GT's in it currently. They are two of the strongest and closest-matching 6V6's I have. I have always wanted a Vibroverb RI and if this little DRRI is as close as I come to it, I'll be very happy!


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> The 73 Bandmaster Reverb had a slightly different OT from a Bassman style. It had a OT of 35-40 watt with about 4k Ra-a.
> The Bassman 125A5A had a little higher resistance and power handling values at about 4.2k and 50 watt. The Marshall JCM800 1202-324/784-139 types were around 3.4k and 50 watt.
> If you want a little cleaner use the 125A5A OT; a little more harmonic distortion use the 1202-324/784-139 types.
> 
> I would not recommend the Deluxe Reverb OT of around 6.6k 20 watts.



Mickey, I have an old Stancor OT that is rated at around 38w IIRC. It's currently in a Silvertone 1483 but it's not the original OT. I think it might be ideal for an amp like the Bandmaster as you described it. Ricky, if you're interested in it, we can work something out. Stancor made some EXCELLENT transformers!


----------



## mickeydg5

Does the Stancor OT have properties stated on a tag? Model number?

Looking at the Silvertone 1483 which is 25 watt or below, the schematic indicates an OT with probably higher plate-plate resistance.


----------



## flyingskull

deleted post, wrong thread


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had a guy call me as he saw my website. However, he was looking for advice. He bought a used TSL122 and he put new tubes in it and he couldn't get it to bias. After talking to him for a while, I realized what the problem was.

I told him that the 122 is upside down from the TSL100. The pots work backwards. I told him to turn the bias pots to the right and then turn left to find the correct bias reading.

Just thought I would pass this on.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Does the Stancor OT have properties stated on a tag? Model number?
> 
> Looking at the Sivertone 1483 which is 25 watt or below, the schematic indicates an OT with probably higher plate-plate resistance.



Yeah, that's the best thing about Stancor. They put a label on their transformers that lists everything you'd ever need to know. I'll check it out if I ever get out of here and make it home tonight.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sold all my Stancor's before moving as well as some custom transformers.

Yes, most have a yellow sticker on the bell describing the specifications.

Back in their day, they were one of the best. They are still in business out of St. Louis.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-How do you like your new friend, Bad Monkey?

He likes me too.


----------



## RiverRatt

You know, my life has been going so well lately, that's just what I needed. A monkey on my back. I've had health problems, money problems, family problems, and I come here to get away from all that shit. 

Why does this place sprout an idiot like that every few months? They are like fungus growing on a pile of bat shit in a cave. They should never be brought out into the light.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I posted a FaceBook page on the P90 thread that might be him.


----------



## RickyLee

Thanks for looking out Alan. I might be interested in that transformer for another project, instead of putting it in my Bandmaster. I am not thinking clearly these last few days, and did not even figure in the higher B+ of my Bandmaster in regards for running 6V6's or running it like a Deluxe. JJ 6V6's would probably survive in my Bandmaster, but then that would not be a true Deluxe would it?

I have always wanted a Deluxe after playing through a '73 with it's original valves many years ago. And then also playing through a DRRI at a party once, had the fire burning even more. I will just have to suffer and be happy with my Blackface Bassman, Silverface Pro, Bandmaster and Twin amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee Ricky, are you a member of the Fender Forum too? Nice set of amps.

The JJ 6V6 does not sound like a 6V6GT. It is more like a 6L6GC in a short bottle.

Are you going to have a tube rectifier in this new project? That will keep your plate voltage down versus SS.


----------



## RickyLee

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee Ricky, are you a member of the Fender Forum too? Nice set of amps.
> 
> The JJ 6V6 does not sound like a 6V6GT. It is more like a 6L6GC in a short bottle.
> 
> Are you going to have a tube rectifier in this new project? That will keep your plate voltage down versus SS.



The only thing I know for sure about the project I mentioned, is I want it to be a two 6V6 amp, push pull. I will use my EL84 adapters when needed for a different flavor. Just a simple idea for now really, possibly a two channel setup. A Clean channel (maybe I will look at the much hyped 6100 Clean circuit for that) and a kick ass Dirt channel. I was figuring going with a solid state rectifier circuit, but want to use a power transformer that outs out no more than 350V on the 6V6/EL84 plates. Finding the power transformer will be the tough part of the task. Plus I want this power transformer to have a beefy heater filament winding to power at least 6 12AX7's, besides the power valves.

But a switchable SS/valve rectifier would actually be quite sweet. But a few weekends ago, I took my Marshall Studio 15 running two JJ 6V6S' to a jam, and got overpowered big time. I had to hook up a second small amp to be heard. So now I am on the fence with the 20W or so design. What do the four 6V6 amps usually put out for power? I am thinking 30W to 36W might be the perfect amp, for just enough enough clean headroom but still able to get some power section saturation when needed. I guess that's why those fancy Mesa amps with the switchable power amp sections are so badass . . .


----------



## MartyStrat54

My first comment is the transformer. Tube rectification raises the voltage by a factor of 1.1, maybe a little higher. Solid state rectifiers go much higher, as high as 1.4.

350 x 1.1 = 385
350 x 1.4 = 490

You will have to find a transformer that puts out around 280V with a tube rectifier.

280 x 1.1 = 308
290 x 1.1 = 319

If you make an amp that switches from tube to SS rectification, then the values would be.

280 x 1.4 = 392
290 x 1.4 = 406

That would be way to hot for regular 6V6GT's. The JJ6V6's would work with this voltage.

Of course, this is unloaded voltage. There will be a small voltage drop once all the tubes are loaded. Just throwing this at you to help you find the right PT.

A 6V6 has about the same output as an EL84, so four, 6V6's could put out between 32 to 40+ watts depending on the final power supply you use. That is almost as loud as a 50 watt amp and if you use a high efficiency speaker, it will be as loud or louder than a 50 watt amp. (Like an Eminence Man 'O War or Swamp Thang as an example.)

Also, I thought that the 6100 preamp incorporated a lot of SS circuitry in its design. If I remember right, the PT in the 6100 also supplies low voltage for the SS components. That could be a difficult design. I would go with say a 2061 clean channel and an JCM 2204 high gain crunch channel.

Just some info for you to consider.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For ALAN.



> In most situations, you can replace a 5AR4/GZ34 with the 5Y3 since they have the same pin outs. From what I can find on the Heathkit AA-111, you will be fine with using either tube.
> 
> But these tubes do have different ratings, so it is always best to use caution when swapping rectifier tubes. Things you will have to consider are:
> 
> - Difference in DC output current ratings
> - Difference in allowable filter capacitance
> - Difference in Plate Resistance
> - Difference in Heater current ratings
> 
> There are also differences in the performance of the two tubes. The primary difference that you may hear is due to the internal plate resistance. The 5AR4/GZ34 has a total plate resistance of approximately 80 Ohms when used as a full wave rectifier (two plates in parallel). For the 5Y3, this resistance is around 400 Ohms. So when you are pulling significant current, you will get much more voltage drop across a 5Y3 compared to a 5AR4/GZ34. This will result in lower plate voltage and lower total output power. This is why the 5AR4/GZ34 would be better at low AC Mains voltages.
> 
> For a Class A/B amplifier (which I believe is the case with the Heathkit AA-111), you may actually be able to hear a difference between the two types of rectifiers because the plate currents vary depending on how hard you are pushing the tubes. This will give you a compression effect, since there will be more voltage drop during loud signals, than during low level signals. This compression will be much stronger using the 5Y3. This gives you what some people refer to as "bloom" during some of the notes. The voltage will drop during the initial attack, but then the plate voltage will rise once the signal level begins to trail off and the plate current decreases.
> 
> For looking at tube technical specifications, Duncan's Amp Pages is a great place to start. Their Tube Data Sheet Locator is a great source to tube datasheets. It also provides a list of substitutes for these tubes, which may or may not be useful.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> The only thing I know for sure about the project I mentioned, is I want it to be a two 6V6 amp, push pull. I will use my EL84 adapters when needed for a different flavor. Just a simple idea for now really, possibly a two channel setup. A Clean channel (maybe I will look at the much hyped 6100 Clean circuit for that) and a kick ass Dirt channel. I was figuring going with a solid state rectifier circuit, but want to use a power transformer that outs out no more than 350V on the 6V6/EL84 plates. Finding the power transformer will be the tough part of the task. Plus I want this power transformer to have a beefy heater filament winding to power at least 6 12AX7's, besides the power valves.
> 
> But a switchable SS/valve rectifier would actually be quite sweet. But a few weekends ago, I took my Marshall Studio 15 running two JJ 6V6S' to a jam, and got overpowered big time. I had to hook up a second small amp to be heard. So now I am on the fence with the 20W or so design. What do the four 6V6 amps usually put out for power? I am thinking 30W to 36W might be the perfect amp, for just enough enough clean headroom but still able to get some power section saturation when needed. I guess that's why those fancy Mesa amps with the switchable power amp sections are so badass . . .



Have you ever looked at the Ted Weber site? They sell amp kits but conveniently list the schematic and layout on the website. You might be interested in the 5E3x2. It's the standard 5E3 Deluxe circuit with four 6V6 power tubes instead of two. I built one of these awhile back and wasn't thrilled with the results. It was ice-picky and almost impossible to push into clipping.

Here's the site if you want to check it out. It's listed under the "Classic 50's American Kits". All amps use the Weber solid-state rectifier which IIRC can be subbed with a plain old tube rectifier.

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits.htm

Also, there are several DIY amps out there that use the 7-pin 6AQ5 pentode. Compare specs with it and a 6V6GT and they are practically identical. There's a DIY project called the Micro Champ that uses these, but I don't see why you couldn't incorporate them into a Deluxe-style circuit or any other that uses 6V6 output tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> For ALAN.



I don't think a 5Y3 would be a good choice in the Deluxe Reverb. The 5V4 or 5R4 would be a better candidate. I really wish I'd kept that Mullard GZ37 that I had a year or so ago. That would have been another good substitute.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You think so? A guy just posted up a vintage twin 6V6 amp that used a 5Y3.

Why would you think it wouldn't work? Sounds like it will drop your power a tad and add a little sag to the tone of the amp.

I thought you might be interested in this as the guy said the 5Y3 would sub.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know if it can keep up with the current demand. I don't think the 5Y3 was ever designed to work in a 20+ watt amp. I tried running a 5Y3 in that 5E3x2 that I built from the Weber schematic/layout. I know it has 2 extra 6V6's but it only uses two 12AX7's as opposed to four 12AX7's and two 12AT7's and it ate 5Y3's. They would start to glow a pretty fluorescent violet color and then the amp would start to cut out. I'd be concerned with arc'ing as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. The 6V6 amp I was talking about was 12 watts. Really running the 6V6's at a mild pace.

That amp had huge iron on it for a 12 watt amp. 

I posted up some pictures here with old amps and their massive transformers. I really don't know why they went this route, because by the mid-50's, the transformers were a more acceptable size.

I mean back in the 40's, Grandma would have to call her son up to move the damn radio.


----------



## mickeydg5

You guys have to check out this thread, particularly post #'s 64 and 65.
Look into it and give comments. 
It is about the Orange tube tester ($500). There are a few threads on it already.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...cm-800kk-arrived-im-very-under-whelmed-3.html


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not paying out $500 for a tube tester with such a limited selection of tubes. I don't like the generalized "6L6" option either, but that's a complaint I've had with most all testers. I don't see how the same parameters can be used to test a 6L6/6L6G, 6L6GA, 6L6GB/5881 and a 6L6GC accurately.

I went and read everything I could find about the Orange tester. Bottom line IMHO; it's too expensive for the hobbyist and too simplified for the audiophile/collector/dealer. I'm glad that somebody has designed a modern tester and it does seem that it performs a full battery of tests. A computer interface, a few more sockets, and parameters for several hundred tubes and they could have made an Amplitrex killer. 

At $500+ you're already at around 1/4th the price of the Amplitrex. I'd sell a few tubes and raise enough cash to take my testing to the next level and go for the Amplitrex before I bought the Orange, but I feel no compulsion to go after either.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. The 6V6 amp I was talking about was 12 watts. Really running the 6V6's at a mild pace.
> 
> That amp had huge iron on it for a 12 watt amp.
> 
> I posted up some pictures here with old amps and their massive transformers. I really don't know why they went this route, because by the mid-50's, the transformers were a more acceptable size.
> 
> I mean back in the 40's, Grandma would have to call her son up to move the damn radio.



I tried my 5V4 in the Deluxe and it was a very underwhelming experience. Apparently the 6V6's don't give up the goods until you push them way over-spec. The 5V4 eliminated some key words from the tone, like "Big", "Warm", "Lush", "Smokin'", etc. Now I'm looking forward to plugging in that GZ34 Mule.

Did I mention finding a freaky rectifier this weekend? It's a Chinese 5Z3P. I have a 5Z3 and it's sort of the 4-pin predecessor to the 5U4. I bought the tube just out of curiosity but now I don't know what to do with it. I can't find much info about it. If it's just a 5U4 with a fancy name, it was a waste of time and money.


----------



## mickeydg5

The Chinese 5Z3P, and only the "P", is the same as a 5U4G type.
Regular 5Z3 have the same characteristics as a 5U4G but different pinout/base.


----------



## MM54

As much as I like the idea of a modern tube tester, it better have a damn long list of features as well as being able to test any tube ever to justify spending twice as much money on it than you can on an old one that does the same thing.


----------



## mickeydg5

I also think like this. It is claimed to perfom all off these functions while the user has to have faith that it does and all with, from what was mentioned, an 18 volt power supply testing at or near real amplifier voltages. The best part is that it practically fits in your hand. Awesome. 

I think I remember once seeing a guy doing something similar with an old HP calc and an adapter. (joke; ha, ha)

Wait to see if anyone does comparison type demos.


----------



## RickyLee

I am going through my stash of power valves and found a single Ruby KT88-STR. What caught my attention is that this valve has a side getter. Anyone have any experience with these? I would like to try and find another one so I at least have a pair.


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> I am going through my stash of power valves and found a single Ruby KT88-STR. What caught my attention is that this valve has a side getter. Anyone have any experience with these? I would like to try and find another one so I at least have a pair.


Some pictures will help.
There were/are different forms of KT88 with side getters included.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Chinese will build them any way you want. What you got is probably an older Chinese tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I did some looking. The only KT88's that I ran across that had those big side-getters looked like Chinese Tung-Sol 6550 copies. The Chinese have also been known to put several different numbers on the same tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anyone ever see an amp that used these. These are very clean, but metal tipped tubes are pretty old.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, but there is a tube, the 6BG6, that has a top cap and is a drop-in replacement for a 6L6GC. The tube doesn't have an internal connection to pin 3, so you run a wire to the cap for the plate. They are supposed to sound superb and can handle 700v+ on the plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well most metal tipped tubes were usually rated at 800V.


----------



## sccloser

I have seen a single NOS 6L6GC packaged in an RCA box sitting in a shop for several months now. It just sits there. I do not know what I could use it for, but it just keeps beckoning for me to buy it. Maybe one day I'll get another Champ 12 or some other single ended 6l6 amp. Or maybe I will luckily find its perfect match for cheap. I'm not even sure what the GC means. But I keep thinking about getting it. Bet I can buy it for less than $10. What do y'all think?

Oh, and this is my 2000th post...wooo-hooo. Not bad considering I don't get online much anymore...


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> I have seen a single NOS 6L6GC packaged in an RCA box sitting in a shop for several months now. It just sits there. I do not know what I could use it for, but it just keeps beckoning for me to buy it. Maybe one day I'll get another Champ 12 or some other single ended 6l6 amp. Or maybe I will luckily find its perfect match for cheap. I'm not even sure what the GC means. But I keep thinking about getting it. Bet I can buy it for less than $10. What do y'all think?
> 
> Oh, and this is my 2000th post...wooo-hooo. Not bad considering I don't get online much anymore...


The "GC" is 500 volt 30 watt plate.
Is it black or gray plate?


----------



## MM54

I have a single RCA 6L6GC blackplate, it's pretty good in the CA10. Have a lone GE 6L6GC as well, it sounds good but not as good as the RCA.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I have seen a single NOS 6L6GC packaged in an RCA box sitting in a shop for several months now. It just sits there. I do not know what I could use it for, but it just keeps beckoning for me to buy it. Maybe one day I'll get another Champ 12 or some other single ended 6l6 amp. Or maybe I will luckily find its perfect match for cheap. I'm not even sure what the GC means. But I keep thinking about getting it. Bet I can buy it for less than $10. What do y'all think?
> 
> Oh, and this is my 2000th post...wooo-hooo. Not bad considering I don't get online much anymore...





Now, what Mickey said...


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought a black plate RCA 6L6GC from one of my better contacts last weekend, and it's dead. It lights up but there's nobody home.


----------



## mickeydg5

Give it a proper burial.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> I bought a black plate RCA 6L6GC from one of my better contacts last weekend, and it's dead. It lights up but there's nobody home.



Those work best in a muted amp.


----------



## iron broadsword

Well I've had my Sovtek 6L6WXT+'s installed in my 4100 for a few weeks now and am really loving them. Pretty sure I love them as much as I did the Tung-Sol 6l6GC-STR's, which is saying something. Great tube for the price!


----------



## sccloser

I do not remember the plate color. I guess I should just go ahead and buy it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those work best in a muted amp.



Yeah, and I've also noticed that it works just fine when the amp is on standby.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I do not remember the plate color. I guess I should just go ahead and buy it.



That's a no-brainer. ANY NOS 6L6GC for under $10 should be bought immediately before the owner comes to their senses.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. Grab it while the grabbing is good.


----------



## RiverRatt

If anyone here should happen to run across a Bendix 5992, I need one. Doesn't matter if it matches the one I have or not, although that would be a bonus. It's a member of the 6V6 family.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bendix 5992 Tube Military Grade 6V6 GTA Made Special for RCA NOS NIB   | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's only $175. Pretty rich for a 6V6.


----------



## mickeydg5

Seriously?.
People do love their 5992s.


----------



## RiverRatt

I could have gotten on eBay and found the $175 version. 

I was hoping that someone might have one of the $25 variety on here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I had one Alan "it would" be on EBAY!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A used 5992 isn't something you'll find everyday. They used those suckers in early missile systems. Very limited supply. I doubt if they even made a run of 5000 of them.


----------



## John 14:6

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not stupid at all. The xf2 is a very desirable EL34 and they can be pricey. The Dynaco label means they were made for Dynaco amps, but they are still xf2 Mullards. When a tube is made the virgin getter contains barium. A vacuum is pulled and as much air and gas is removed as possible. The glass tip on the bottom of the tube is heated and the glass is soft. Once the vacuum is complete, the air hole is sealed off with hot glass. Once the glass cools, the getter(s) are heated and the "flashing" splatters on the inside of the tube. This splattering removes the last of the excess air and gas. Additionally, the getters continue to work throughout the life of the tube. If a tube develops a leak, the getter will turn white. Do not ever buy a tube with white inside of it. It is shot.
> 
> In power tubes, two getters are more desirable. They may not be any better than a single getter, but dual getter tubes demand more money.
> 
> If you are buying a "matched" set of quads and three measure at 3800, what does the fourth tube measure at? If it is way off, it will not bias right in your amp. MHOS is a unit for measuring transconductance. Transconductance is the opposite of resistance. Engineers decided to spell OHM's backwards and came up with MHO's.
> 
> All I can tell you is that an xf2 is a very good tube. However, make sure all four tubes are within a certain range, or you will not be able to use them in a 100 watt amp. If the other tube reads 3400-3600, you should be fine.


 The RTF EL34's I am seeing on ebay are 0 getters. Will they still sound like a great NOS tube Marty?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> A used 5992 isn't something you'll find everyday. They used those suckers in early missile systems. Very limited supply. I doubt if they even made a run of 5000 of them.



I mainly wanted the second one so that I could try them in the DRRI. I have one very strong Sylvania 6V6GT in the Tweaker 15 along with the Bendix 5992 and it sounds sweet but there's no way to tell what the Bendix is contributing. If there's no hope in finding another anytime soon, I'd might as well sell mine. It tests higher than any 6V6GT I have. The base us fugly though. Maybe a little Armor-All will shine it up.


----------



## RiverRatt

John 14:6 said:


> The RTF EL34's I am seeing on ebay are 0 getters. Will they still sound like a great NOS tube Marty?



John, I think what Marty meant was that the dual getter Mullard xF2 is more desirable than the single-getter Mullard xF2. There may be RFT EL34's with two getters but I'm sure that he meant the Mullard tube specifically. 

RFT continued to make EL34's at least up into the 1990's, so there are still lots of them around. You can sometimes find pairs for well under $100. All the ones I've had sounded excellent. They are also very well-made and should far outlast current production tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

John 14:6 said:


> The RTF EL34's I am seeing on ebay are 0 getters. Will they still sound like a great NOS tube Marty?



Yes, Alan gave a good answer. The single O getter RFT is a solid tube and will provide exceptional NOS tone.

The only thing I warn against with the RFT's is that there are some floating around that are B stock. These tubes cannot take high plate voltage and will fail in most Marshall with over 450 on the plates.

Make sure you are buying from a reputable seller who offers returns or refunds for defective tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Another good deal if you run across them are Marshall-branded Tesla EL34's. If it says EL34M on it and it's NOT a Chinese Groove Tubes EL34, that's what I'm talking about. A Craigslist guy sold me his box of junk guitar and amp parts for $30. I got four brand-new CTS 500KA pots, a couple of strat 5-way switches, various components, a handful of Chinese and Russian 12AX7's, and the pair of Tesla EL34's that he pulled from his JCM900. I like finding stuff like that.


----------



## RiverRatt

You know, if somebody times it right, this thread is just about to roll over to 100 pages. Joe, you got your trigger finger ready? You took the other thread into the 500's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay...I'll give it a shot. I'm a contributor...but I'm not a post whore.

Okay-I'm using this same post. I did a little math and there are 14 comments on the page so far. A page will generally hold 29 comments.


----------



## Micky

Only 74 pages here.
Everyone has the option to change the default page length...


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn't realize that. I never mess with anything but the sig and avatar.


----------



## John 14:6

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, Alan gave a good answer. The single O getter RFT is a solid tube and will provide exceptional NOS tone.
> 
> The only thing I warn against with the RFT's is that there are some floating around that are B stock. These tubes cannot take high plate voltage and will fail in most Marshall with over 450 on the plates.
> 
> Make sure you are buying from a reputable seller who offers returns or refunds for defective tubes.


 I was looking at these, but I could pay a little more and maybe get some Siemens through Mesa or ebay. I am OK for tubes right now though I am itching to try some NOS tubes in my YJM100. I am running all JJ 12AX7's and SED Winged C EL34's currently. This probably is a dumb question, but can I buy tubes directly through you Marty?

4X EL34 Power Tubes RFT O Getter El 34 Strong Matched | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOHN-Send me an email at: meospeak@aol.com and we can talk about tubes.


----------



## RickyLee

Have any of you seen these KT88 valves with the side getter?


This is a Ruby KT88 STR. The top heat fins are black and look like the same black plate material from the older valves. I only have one and need a mate for this lonely valve.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe one of these graced the forum a while back. That is an early Shuguang Chinese KT-88. Ruby uses a lot of Shuguang. I don't know how good this design was, because they didn't continue it and changed the design.


----------



## RickyLee

I just got my '72 Ampeg VT-22 project running. The amp is an absolute beast. I have some old 7027A's in it right now. But I am considering trying some KT66's in it. My question is regarding the new production KT66 choices. This amp runs 530V on the plates and screens, so I need something that can handle these voltages. I was thinking about putting in the quad of JJ KT77's I have, but then I am adding more heater current stress to the power transformer. I have read that people run 6550's and KT88's without issue in these, so maybe the KT77's will not be an issue?


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> I just got my '72 Ampeg VT-22 project running. The amp is an absolute beast. I have some old 7027A's in it right now. But I am considering trying some KT66's in it. My question is regarding the new production KT66 choices. This amp runs 530V on the plates and screens, so I need something that can handle these voltages. I was thinking about putting in the quad of JJ KT77's I have, but then I am adding more heater current stress to the power transformer. I have read that people run 6550's and KT88's without issue in these, so maybe the KT77's will not be an issue?



I should add, that I am interested in the new Tung Sol 6L6GC STR. I am also curious about the new Tung Sol EL34 valave for another amp. If anyone has tried these let me know what you thought of them. Also, I am needing to find the max voltage specs on these Tung Sol 6L6GC's. I am going to search on that and might as well look up the new Tung Sol KT66 while I am at it.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I should add, that I am interested in the new Tung Sol 6L6GC STR. I am also curious about the new Tung Sol EL34 valave for another amp. If anyone has tried these let me know what you thought of them. Also, I am needing to find the max voltage specs on these Tung Sol 6L6GC's. I am going to search on that and might as well look up the new Tung Sol KT66 while I am at it.



Ricky, I have a pair of Tung-Sol KT66's from back when I had that Vintage Modern head. They haven't been used much at all. Let me know if you're interested in trying them. These are the ones with the large metal base.

Is the socket wired for 7027's? IIRC they are a little different internally from any of the 6L6 family. I think they can work in some cases but not all, or I may be full of shit. I haven't had an Ampeg in awhile.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Ricky, I have a pair of Tung-Sol KT66's from back when I had that Vintage Modern head. They haven't been used much at all. Let me know if you're interested in trying them. These are the ones with the large metal base.
> 
> Is the socket wired for 7027's? IIRC they are a little different internally from any of the 6L6 family. I think they can work in some cases but not all, or I may be full of shit. I haven't had an Ampeg in awhile.




Dam That River! I was just playing this Ampeg after I added in the second speaker: An early 80's G12-80 1777 cone. I had only a new Hellatone 60L in there first testing that speaker. Then I just added the G12-80 in parallel, and this amp is insanely loud. Seems louder than my other V4 which is basically the same amp but the head version and also a '72. The first V4 I have new filter caps and other improvement of old components. This VT-22 also has no back at all on it, so that is probably why I was getting such volume here in my kitchen.



Do you know the specs on those Tung Sol KT66's? I would like a quad but running a pair in half power might be sweet. But then only running two power valves will raise my plate voltage up to 540V - 550V. And the screens will right there as well.

This amp is also so freakin' heavy. I will never be able to take it anywhere as I have a herniated L5/S1 disc in my lower back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

7027 have a different pin out and you need to do some rewiring before trying some of the other tubes you listed.

530VDC plate voltage is pretty high and I think it would even tax a NOS KT66. My quick search states 500V max for the KT66.


----------



## MartyStrat54

7027A is 600V on plates and 500V on screens.


----------



## RickyLee

While trying to find specs on the new Tung Sol KT66, I ran into this:

DO NOT USE NEW TUNG-SOL KT-66's | Z-Talk


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's nothing new to me. I don't know how many power tubes made by New Sensor share parts. The TS KT66 is basically a 6L6GC inside a KT88 tube. An original KT66 does not have a metal base and should have a N/C Pin 1.

And as I said, 530VDC will eat one of these tubes up in a short amount of time.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, my Ampeg will eat those valves up. I would imagine there's no need for me to consider the new Tung Sol 6L6 as well. 

I will probably just go with a quad of JJ 6L6GC's. I have Wing C 6L6 in my other Ampeg V4. But the price on those is just not a consideration for me right now for this VT-22.

But a set of Chinese KT66 or even JJ KT66 could be a possibility. How do you rate these last two Marty?

Dropping some B+ with some Zener diodes would actually help out this amp big time.


----------



## RickyLee

OK. I found this datasheet for the New Sensor Tung Sol 6L6G:

http://www.dougstubes.com/6l6g-tungsol.pdf

From what I have read about these, they sound interesting. I am just wanting to try something different to compare to the JJ 6L6GC and the Wing C 6L6. I have a new quad of JJ 6L6GC sitting here to experiment while my other Ampeg is loaded with new Wing C 6L6. And of course, I want to see how these stack up to the mix of two RCA 7027A & two GE 7027A that is running in my VT-22 right now. Plus, the other reason is that I need a quad of 6L6 for my Mesa Nomad 100 as well which is why I got the JJ 6L6GC originally, but never installed them yet.

Being these Tung Sol 6L6G are rated for 500V plate and screen, I am fine with trying them in my Ampeg.


----------



## mickeydg5

Just remember that the New Sensor Tung-Sol 6L6G tubes and datasheet you are looking at is actually 6L6GC type and specifications which are not a true 6L6G.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 6L6G is rated at 360 plate and 270 screen. A real one. Not familiar with the Tung-Sol 6L6G.

Did a search on the Tube Store and it is just a 6L6GC in a big bottle and rated as a 6L6GC. It has the same tone as the Tung-Sol 6L6GC, because that is what it is.

Just another tube that New Sensor is selling that is just a repackaged version of an already existing tube.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, I realize the older revision of "G" vs "GC". I was curious to why they would even call it a 6L6G anyway? Odd.

To be honest, I do not even think I would hear a tonal difference between any of the variant Russian 6L6 valves. I could probably notice some different nuances in the sound of a JJ 6L6 though.


----------



## RiverRatt

This kinda stuff really gives you a lot of confidence in Russian tubes. You don't know what in the hell you're really getting. KT66's that are KT88's, 6L6G's that are 6L6GC's, 5881's that are 6L6GC's. JJ needs to get in the game. They could design a new tube, call it the 6GC6L and claim that it breaks up earlier than a normal 6L6GC.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...and only be half the wattage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bob would eat that shit up. If he read this, he's probably already had to change his underwear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Bob would probably want high performance, dual stage cooling fins.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I approved the final design for my Tee's. They are now available for advanced orders. They should be available in two weeks. These are a limited run. 6 color on the front and black on the back. Color of shirt is Ice Grey. Available in M, LG, XL or XXL. Price is $22 and includes shipping to the lower 48. Worldwide shipping at additional charge.

Any questions, PM me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a Laney AOR Pro Tube 3012 combo today. I had to replace the mains cable and the speaker cable. I got all that set up, biased a pair of hot Tung-Sol 6V6GT's at around 20mV and they are running just fine at 411v.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that a 6V6 amp? 411V sounds high to me. 

Will it run 5881's?


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a nice pair of old 5881's and considered trying them. The bias pot doesn't have a lot of travel and they would most likely be running cold, and they would draw an additional 1A of filament current. I wish I could find the transformer specs. I know they used massive Skot PT's in the 50 and 100w amps but the 30 has a laydown transformer and I didn't see any info written on it. The OT says it's an Ariel 6016 and the PT is a 6014 according to the schematic, but the schematic I have is for the Series II and is dated 1989. My amp is dated 1987 so I have no idea really what changes were made in those 2 years.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found the older 1984 original schematic, but it's not any help. It lists the PT as T.2. I'm going to open it back up and see if I can find any info and take a few gut shots. 

Here's the Series I:

http://users.telenet.be/thebluemondays/schema/AOR30-12.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are some readings... With 119VAC at the wall, I'm getting 394v with 6V6's and they don't want to go any higher than 18mV. With the 5881's, I'm getting 364v on the plates and they will bias up at 38mV which is a little cool for a 5881 but they kick the 6V6's ass tone-wise. I think I'm gonna leave them in - they aren't showing any ill effects. I'm wondering if the trannies aren't just a generic Marshall-style 45 or 50 watt set. The 5881's seem to bias up better, sound better, and the amp is very quiet. I think that 1986 LCR 50 + 50 cap is starting to smooth out. I wish they still made them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked at that 1989 schematic. They must be really driving the piss out of a pair of 6V6's to get 30 watts. A 6V6 is in the same power range as an EL84, 10 to 12 watts per tube.

Running those 5881's a little cold is no different than the guys who like to run 6550's in a Marshall. A lot of guys like that tone.

Of course, I'm like you. It would be nice to know the filament specs on the PT. I did a Dogpile search and it was all YouTube and the one free schematic site.

I would suggest sending Laney an email, but from what I have heard, they have dreadful customer service.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know that they would be of much help regardless. Both transformers have "ariel" on the label. The PT is a lay-down transformer and is a model 6014. The OT is a model 6016. I'm hoping one of you guys will be familiar with them. I don't think I've ever heard of them before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I just sent Laney and email. I will report back to you here and by PM once I get a reply.


----------



## mickeydg5

With the 6V6 to 5881 substitute in that Laney 3012 how is the overall volume difference? Are you getting a 2 or 3dB increase in volume?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know that the power output will be limited by the power supply. Again, like running four 6550's with a 100 watt power supply.

My feeling was that at the higher plate voltage (and screens) the 5881 would be a safer tube to run, just as a 7189 is the premium EL84 replacement.


----------



## mickeydg5

Remember with the comparison you have made the 100 watt EL34 type amplifier is being run just as that but with 6550 tubes. Alan is not running those 5881s at about 20+ mA, is he?

What I am thinking is that the transformers may not be able to handle the current demands with the amplifier cranked using 5881s. The amplifier was not designed with 6L6/5881 tubes in mind. Watch and feel those transformers. Excessive heat is not your friend.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, there's a noticeable volume jump as well as more definition, and it definitely sounds more like an EL34 amp. The 6V6's sounded on the verge of meltdown. The distortion was nice, but a little too compressed and splatty at volume. Now it goes from Marshall clean/crunch to brown sound to Sabbath tones. I let it run for an hour or so and the plate voltage settled around 374v and the bias was right on 40mV. That's pretty close to 60% on the 5881's, which is about where I like to run EL34's too. I took some shots of it while I was working. I'll bet there are at least 2,203 or 2,204 similarities between the Laney and another popular amp maker's flagship amp from back in the 1980's.

Check out how clean this amp is. I don't think it's been used in a long time. I cleaned out cobwebs and two dead roaches when I was getting it ready to run. No reverb yet, but who the hell needs reverb in a 1980's high-gain amp??


----------



## RiverRatt

Mickey, you posted before I could finish that last one. So far so good. Everything is running cool and smoothly.


----------



## mickeydg5

Running and playing full out are very different. Keep an eye on it when playing.

NOTICE how small those transformers are in comparison to other 6L6/5881 amplifiers.
Size does matter in this case.


----------



## RiverRatt

I will. I've got rehearsals starting up next week, but I think I'm going to use my DRRI for that as it's going to be clean stuff. I probably won't have to compete with a drummer using the Laney until late summer or fall. That's plenty of time to find any problems. I have a couple of Stancor transformers that I could use in the Laney that are made for 5881's if one of the stock ones dies, so I'm not really worried about the tube experiment. Hell, it's only a $200 amp. The tubes and trannies are running cool, so I'm inclined to go with it for awhile and see what happens. If I **** it up, you'll read about it in the Workbench forum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Remember with the comparison you have made the 100 watt EL34 type amplifier is being run just as that but with 6550 tubes. Alan is not running those 5881s at about 20+ mA, is he?
> 
> What I am thinking is that the transformers may not be able to handle the current demands with the amplifier cranked using 5881s. The amplifier was not designed with 6L6/5881 tubes in mind. Watch and feel those transformers. Excessive heat is not your friend.



No he wasn't. I believe he had to crank the bias pot to the max to get about 60 percent for the 5881's.

And after reading that, that is why I stated it was similar to running "cold" 6550's in a Marshall amp. The 5881's might be better off at say 65-68 percent.

And I agree that the iron is a little undersized. However, I do think running 6V6's with high plate voltage is not a good idea. Maybe Alan can replace the PT and OPT and it will convert to a 5881 amp. 

Believe it or not, there are still a lot of guys who think that their amp puts out more power with the 6550's.


----------



## mickeydg5

I had to go back and look at the wording. I understand what you were saying know with the running cool aspect.

I dropped my brain!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have brain farts all the time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't find a damned bit of info on that PT. Here's the datasheet from Laney. I could tell all this from the label on the transformer.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm gonna flog this dead horse one more time...

Since I can't find any spec's on the ariel 6014 PT, I went back to using 6V6GT's. I have wanted to try out a pair of old Russian military 6P6S which are supposed to be a drop-in replacement, but I've always heard that they don't sound like a 6V6GT. Well, that turned out to be true and also turned out to be a good thing. They don't have all that compression and mud like you get when you push a Fender 6V6 amp too hard. Tone-wise, they are more like a 5881 or EL34 than a 6V6.

Don't get me wrong. I love my DRRI with 6V6GT's - it's a classic amp with lush tones, but as Neil Young proved, 6V6's can sound NASTY. Sometimes in a good way, but not an effect I would use for more than a couple of songs. 

These Russian 6P6S tubes are like the 6P3S and 6P3S-E. They are close enough to their American counterparts to be useful, but they don't really sound like any particular USA pentode. The 6P6S is a pretty wicked little tube. I may have to get a handful of them while they are plentiful. As soon as my 6P3S-E order gets here, I'll have a complete set of Russian military power tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm still waiting on a reply from Laney. They'll probably send me the tranny schematic you found. If they reply at all.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had sent them a message, too. I used to be a member at the Laney Posse (probably still am) but there's no real info there, either. I give up. If Joey Voltage were here or that Tony guy who died and came back, they knew Laney pretty well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can get a hold of Joey on the FB MMG.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I forgot about that.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

I was reading about the Tungsol 6550's and was wondering if my JTM60 can be biased to run these tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's the deal on that. The JTM60 has a reputation for having under spec transformers and heating issues.

Now in other Marshall's, people use the 6550's and some Marshall's were factory equipped with 6550's. 

However, the 6550's are biased as a 25 watt tube instead of a 35 watt tube. This means the 6550's are running cold. Now a lot of metal players like this tone and that is fine, but if the amp was designed properly around the 6550's it would put out 140 watts or more. It's all a matter of taste.

However, even if you did the necessary component changes to run the 6550's, I don't know if they will physically fit in your amp.

You can't just substitute a 6550 for an EL34. You need to change out several resistors on the power tubes and also the bias circuit.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Thanks Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know if I will get many views here, but here goes.

I just found out that the TAD EL34B-STR is an exclusive tube made for TAD. I am thinking about getting a matched quad and letting 4 or 5 members try them out in a 50 or 100 watt amp (or the new 40 watt DSL). 

You must be competent with biasing your amp and handling tubes. I can't afford the tubes getting damaged, so you will need to pack them well or ship them in the box I use.

You can audition the tubes for up to 3 days and then send them to the next person. You will be required to submit your comments to me.

If interested, PM me or leave a post.

Marty


----------



## Stymie13

I'm in... PM'd


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have an EL34-burner at the moment, unless you count the Tweaker 15 and that's probably not a good test bed. It makes every tube sound good.


----------



## minerman

My 12AU7's from Alan arrived this morning (thanks Alan!!!), & here's what I got:

2- Tung Sol's, 2- GE's, 2- RCA Black Plates, & 2- RCA Clear Tops.....

So far, I like the RCA Black Plate's the best, but haven't really had enough time to decide for sure....

Here's what I have in the DSL-1 H as of right now:
V1- Baldwin labeled GE 12AX7
V2- Mullard 12AX7
V3- RCA Black Plate 12AU7
V4- Sylvania 12AX7
V5- RCA Black Plate 12AU7

Every tube I have came from Alan btw, other than the Mullard, & the stock tubes that came in my amps..., & I told him to only send 6 (Tung Sol, GE & RCA Black Plates), but he was nice enough to send the RCA Clear Tops for free....great guy!!!!

Just wanna tell Alan thanks, especially for the couple extra tubes I didn't expect!!!


----------



## keennay

If I want to buy original Winged C EL-34's, where's the best source?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Where do you live?

Almost all the retailers have them for around $36 each.

It boils down to who has the cheapest shipping.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> I don't know if I will get many views here, but here goes.
> 
> I just found out that the TAD EL34B-STR is an exclusive tube made for TAD. I am thinking about getting a matched quad and letting 4 or 5 members try them out in a 50 or 100 watt amp (or the new 40 watt DSL).
> 
> You must be competent with biasing your amp and handling tubes. I can't afford the tubes getting damaged, so you will need to pack them well or ship them in the box I use.
> 
> You can audition the tubes for up to 3 days and then send them to the next person. You will be required to submit your comments to me.
> 
> If interested, PM me or leave a post.
> 
> Marty


So Marty - Tell us more about these tubes.
How heavy duty are they? Can they handle higher voltages?
What makes them so special anyway?
Where is the best place to find them (USA) and for how much?

Inquiring minds want to know...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that is why I am having these tubes field tested. Of course, you are one of the testers. 

I am not going to go into much detail here, because as I stated earlier, once all the testing is done, I will present all the comments at one time and included my own.

The main thing is this particular tube is not very well know and I thought it would be a good idea to see what it is all about.

These tubes are designed in Germany and then manufactured in China to the German specification, so they are not just another relabeled Shuguang like the Ruby EL34B-STR.

MoJo is the US distributor for TAD and I now have a dealer account with MoJo, so I will be able to sell TAD's. 

The testing should be done around the 7th of August.

Thank you for participating as one of the field testers.


----------



## Micky

Yeah, I know you don't wanna release too much data just yet, and having run these thru my DSL I do have first hand knowledge of how they sound.

But sound is subjective, and even though my now over 50-year-old ears aren't what they used to be, a slight difference can go unnoticed. I am more interested in the background and tech specs more than anything else, as it is easy to EQ most tonal differences. Not necessarily a cork-sniffer, but a user interested in the most bang-for-the-buck and quality construction as prime considerations.

We all look forward to your final review on these, as they are not very popular and there isn't a lot of real information out there on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll try to provide you some links and quotes about the TAD's.



> Sensational new high-gain (Gm) EL34 tube with very dynamic tone. Extra strong mil. grade construction with gold plate grid. Perfect for High-End HiFi and best choice for all Marshall®, Hiwatt®, Orange® etc. to achieve that big tone they became famous for. Very close to the legendary UK made Mullard EL34.
> The TAD EL34B-STR can replace any 6CA7 or KT77.



SPEC SHEET

http://www.tubeampdoctor.com/images/File/TAD-Datasheet_EL34B-STR Version1.3-08.07.11.pdf

It is rated at 800 on the plates and 500 on the screens.


----------



## Oystein72

Hey.

This might have been discussed earlier and it might be posted in the wrong thread, so for that you have to have me excused.

I recently bought a second hand Class 5 combo, with some "upgrades" done to it by the previous owner. The reason for the replacements of components (tubes; pre-amps and power, and the speaker) is possibly understandable to enhance the performance, but as I read about the amplifier and the new components, a concern appears.
He replaced the power tube with a JJ EL84, and as far as i can understand this particular tube heats up a bit more than other equivalents. In an amp with loads of room and natural cooling this probably won't represent a problem, but the Class 5 seems to me to be too compact. I do experience some problems controlling the "sound picture" when i crank it up a bit.

Should i change to another power tube, and in that case which one?

-Oystein-


----------



## 61rocker

Oystein72 said:


> Hey.
> 
> This might have been discussed earlier and it might be posted in the wrong thread, so for that you have to have me excused.
> 
> I recently bought a second hand Class 5 combo, with some "upgrades" done to it by the previous owner. The reason for the replacements of components (tubes; pre-amps and power, and the speaker) is possibly understandable to enhance the performance, but as I read about the amplifier and the new components, a concern appears.
> He replaced the power tube with a JJ EL84, and as far as i can understand this particular tube heats up a bit more than other equivalents. In an amp with loads of room and natural cooling this probably won't represent a problem, but the Class 5 seems to me to be too compact. I do experience some problems controlling the "sound picture" when i crank it up a bit.
> 
> Should i change to another power tube, and in that case which one?
> 
> -Oystein-


 
_I can't answer your question, but my Class 5 came stock with a JJ el84....just strikes me funny that someone would claim upgrade on that with the same tube....I dunno, maybe some Class 5's came with other brands of tubes....My 2 12ax7s were JJ's as well, one with a short plate (V1) and one with a long plate (V2). _


----------



## chee16

Could be cool to try something Old Stock, since you amp only takes one power tube you might find something interesting for a decent price. I would inquire with Marty. Old Stock power tubes are usually pricey because people are looking for matched pairs or quads, so a single is easier, I would think anyway.

Try different preamps too! Why not, I think it is great tweaking the preamp and trying different stuff.


----------



## Oystein72

61rocker said:


> _I can't answer your question, but my Class 5 came stock with a JJ el84....just strikes me funny that someone would claim upgrade on that with the same tube....I dunno, maybe some Class 5's came with other brands of tubes....My 2 12ax7s were JJ's as well, one with a short plate (V1) and one with a long plate (V2). _



Thanks!
I do know this amp is of the first series Marshall manufactured, the one they had to modify a bit because of squeakyness, but I don't know which tubes were factory fitted.
Either way, it should be up to date, then.

Maybe my SG is to much for it?


----------



## Oystein72

chee16 said:


> Could be cool to try something Old Stock, since you amp only takes one power tube you might find something interesting for a decent price. I would inquire with Marty. Old Stock power tubes are usually pricey because people are looking for matched pairs or quads, so a single is easier, I would think anyway.
> 
> Try different preamps too! Why not, I think it is great tweaking the preamp and trying different stuff.



Thanks for the tip!


----------



## johnfv

Marty certainly can help. I have a vintage tubes in my Class 5 that came from Alan (River Rat), they were a big improvement. The output tube is a 6BQ5, you might also check with Alan if he has any other singles available. Also, I found that a lower gain tube in V1 worked better for me.


----------



## Oystein72

Wow, the response is overwelming! Thanks again.
I will ask Marty after I've had a look into my amp.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll try to provide you some links and quotes about the TAD's...


The TADs arrived safely here in Austin, Texas. I will of course keep my impressions to myself for now per Marty's request but thought I'd post some pics along the way. I rated them all on my Orange VT1000 first and then put a pair in my Ceriatone 2204HW for the first test. Having external bias and probe points is very handy. Tomorrow I'll use a pair at rehearsal in my Ceriatone TW Express. You can see I have my essential tools - multimeter and tube changing sock  

Looking forward to when Marty does the "big reveal" with input from all the field testers


----------



## MartyStrat54

How did the tubes match up on your tester?

The TAD's have higher transconductance than most EL34's.

Looks like the one tube in the picture tests at "12."


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Not too rain on your parade , but i'm having alot of issues with my next to new TAD's at the moment . 3 of the four have failed very premature imo ... less than 6 months old !
This was my second set , and i had not one minute's trouble with the first set .


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> How did the tubes match up on your tester?
> 
> The TAD's have higher transconductance than most EL34's.
> 
> Looks like the one tube in the picture tests at "12."


Yes, all rated 12 on the VT1000, nicely matched.


----------



## MartyStrat54

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Not too rain on your parade , but i'm having alot of issues with my next to new TAD's at the moment . 3 of the four have failed very premature imo ... less than 6 months old !
> This was my second set , and i had not one minute's trouble with the first set .



PM sent Mike.


----------



## johnfv

More testing with the TAD EL34s, Ceriatone TW Express clone:


----------



## MartyStrat54

SED Winged C is history.

www.thetubestore.com - SED Winged "C" Audio Tubes

See my comments in the SED thread in the Workshop section.


----------



## Georgiatec

Hey Marty....heres the pic of that Mesa EL84. Chinese as you thought?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That is a current version of a Shuguang EL84.


----------



## Georgiatec

MartyStrat54 said:


> That is a current version of a Shuguang EL84.



Thanks Marty. I do like the sound of them, but I put those Mazda RFT's in yesterday and they have way more detail and warmth to them. I suppose if both Marshall and Mesa are using Shuguang tubes there can't be an awful lot wrong with them. Will be perfect for a back up set. Compliment is now pre; v1 RFT, v2 RFT, v3 JJ ECC83S, v4 Tung Sol. Then the Mazda RFT EL84's, sounds really nice. I tried a Blackburn Mule ECC82 in v1 but while it sounds great it doesn't quite have the amount of gain needed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey what did you pay for the NOS RFT EL84's?


----------



## Georgiatec

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey what did you pay for the NOS RFT EL84's?



A tenner each Marty. Job lot of 7 NOS tubes for £70....about $100 USD. I noticed they are a lot lighter (in weight) than the (Mesa) Shuguang's I took out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's not a bad price at all. Were you able to test them for matching, or did you just put them in your amp?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Aren't you glad your guitar amp doesn't use these?

TWO 2 Western Electric Tubes "300B" 1950'S "Matched Pair" Hard TO Find | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Aren't you glad your guitar amp doesn't use these?
> 
> TWO 2 Western Electric Tubes "300B" 1950'S "Matched Pair" Hard TO Find | eBay



I wish I could find another W.E. 300B. Mine sold for over $1,100. That pair is just unreal. $4k6 for 2 tubes???


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess if you just paid $4600 for a pair of tubes, the $60 for shipping isn't too bad.


----------



## RiverRatt

If I paid $4,600 for a pair of tubes, I would hop a plane or drive to pick them up.


----------



## gazzamarad

I recently changed over my power tubes from a quad set of Shuguang EL34B to a set of Svetlana EL34 winged C. This is the euro version of Svetlana from St.Petersburg factory in Russia, not the reflector branded only in amerika Svetlana. The Shuguang were an overall robust well balanced tube, maybe a little thin in the tops (sg will do that) but great value for the price. The winged c's were double the price but I must say ''WOW'' what an impressive improvement it has made to my sound. More balls , more alive, warmer to the ear.....just better overall by a good 25 to 30%. They didn't change my sound so much as further enhance (richness) it. Worth $160.00 for a matched quad. Even my tech was quite surprised at the closeness of the match, seeing I bought them from an audio shop on ebay. I hope my smile will last for ages. Regards to all on this great forum


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Winged C's are the standard of the tube industry. Let's just hope they stay open and continue to manufacture their tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

Check out these Nationals and comment. RFT's from 1987.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/60588-national-electronics.html


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I left my comments.

Mainly that they are actually RFT EL34's being sold as 6CA7's (apparently for the US market).

Also, that the tubes are probably still good, as they last a long time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got to lay hands on the Dynaco ST70 this week. Dude was running it with a cheap Zoom modeler into an old 1970's realistic 4-channel mixer into the amp, then into a 4x12 cab set to stereo. The PI tubes are 7199's except that the right channel had a 6AN8 instead of a 7199. I told him not to run the amp until he had another 7199 in it, and he kept saying that it worked, it just wasn't as loud. Some people you just can't convince.

At least he took the original power tubes out. I got to see them, too. All four are Mullard Xf2's. He's running MESA EL34's in it now. One of them wasn't even lighting up until I wiggled it around some.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you going to get it? Sounds like it needs some TLC.

There was a nice one on EBAY a couple of weeks ago. I had the urge to bid, but then I had a surge of common sense overtake me.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you going to get it? Sounds like it needs some TLC.
> 
> There was a nice one on EBAY a couple of weeks ago. I had the urge to bid, but then I had a surge of common sense overtake me.





I really don't have to have the amp... I'm trying to pry those Xf2's away from him pretty hard though. This is the hardest guy in the world to deal with. He has to ponder things way the **** too long.


----------



## wakjob

Helped my buddy close his store for good today. 

Gave me a small box of tubes as a thank you.
Five GE 12ax7's + one Sylvania
Two Raytheon, Four Sylvania, Three GE, One Realistic 6CA7's


----------



## mickeydg5

Whoa, wow. Show us them 6CA7s.
Four big bottle Sylvania tubes, .
Lets see the others because some may be made by well respected manufacturers, being relabeled for GE or Raytheon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. You might have something special hiding in those boxes.

Get the camera out pronto!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm really interested to see what is in the Raytheon boxes. Raytheon didn't make 6CA7's, so it has to be a relabel.

If the Raytheon's say "Registered" and have a dimple on the top, they are RFT EL34's.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is what I was thinking.
The GE could be as well or even Mullard.


----------



## wakjob




----------



## wakjob

The five Sylvania's, the two GE's say xf2


----------



## wakjob

The Realistic is a Japan tube also... sorry for the crappy photo.


----------



## mickeydg5

Three Japanese Matshushita and seven Mullard XF2 tubes.
The Sylvania is not a USA fat bottle but relabeled XF2 which is also an excellent type tube.

How do the Matshushita tubes fare?


----------



## RiverRatt

Dude, I would love the Matsushitas! I've wanted to try them out for a long time. Check 'em out, and if you want some preamp tubes, I could work out a nice trade.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You did well, very well. Get those xF2's tested. A matched quad will fetch a handsome price. Someone with a vintage 1959 will snatch them up.

Of course, YOU could always use some of them in your amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never used a MAT EL34. I am curious about them as well. I see they have stapled plates. I wonder if they rattle?


----------



## mickeydg5

Do other stapled tubes rattle?


----------



## damienbeale

Damn. Just knew there was going to be XF2's lurking in there.

Actually, I'm more envious of the Jap tubes. I don't have any of those. 



80's onwards Tesla's (especially late 90's ones) are the worst rattlers I can think of and they're welded. None of the RFT's or late stapled Mullards (XF4's and some XF3's) I've ever had have rattled.

In fact, they rattle much less than all of my XF2's (welded - for those that didn't know).


----------



## MartyStrat54

wakjob-Are all of the xF2's the same construction? By that I mean are they all single getters, or are some of them dual getters?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, brown base Tesla's were notorious for rattling. Since I don't have any experience with the MAT EL34's, I just wondered how they would fare.

I have a pair of dual getter xF2's in my TSL602 and they have just a little rattle to them. This does not affect the audio however.


----------



## damienbeale

Black base Tesla's are even worse. Hideously so. And microphonically so (after a while). And I've still got two flipping pairs of them. 

And Alan, did you ever get your answer about St Petersburg logo's? (Guess who read the first couple of pages...  )
I have several sets from the same supplier, all St Petersburg. '99 stock is all Svetlana branded. '00 date codes I have mixes of Svetlana and Winged C logo's. From '01 onwards all were Winged C although I don't have any of those left now. I do still have some from '06.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And isn't it funny how much money Tesla EL34's get on EBAY? What a joke.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Used and $200. Marshall Tesla's. (Back when Marshall couldn't find any reliable EL34's.)






$460






$300






Ha-ha-ha.


----------



## damienbeale

I can almost hear the filament rattle...

Actually, that middle set could be a bloody good set (though arguably overpriced). I have some '72 Tesla's that slay. No longer have any late 60's ones though. My last pair went pop long ago. Probably my favourite EL34's ever, although not as smooth as XF2's or early RFT's. Let's face it though, they all started to go downhill badly in the 70's, but Mullard fared the best by a long way. Most likely because, all the tubes that didn't make the cut were destroyed, en masse. And that didn't happen with either the Czech's or the Germans.


----------



## damienbeale

In fact, if I read it right, those Tesla's are from 1964. I wasn't aware they were making EL34's then. That price might not be all that far-reaching.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hell, I don't even remember the St. Petersburg question or even why I cared in the first place. If it was about when the New Sensor Svetlanas hit the market I do remember getting the answer to that question but I've forgotten it again. Seems like it was 2003 or 2006... I get them confused with the downfall of Ei. Speaking of, what ever happened with that rumor that the St. Petersburg factory had acquired Ei? They even have a website teaser for awhile.

I had some Marshall-branded Tesla EL34M's awhile back and they weren't bad tubes at all. If you think the prices on those are ridiculous, find a set of old blue glass Tesla EL34's


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well we talked about the blue bottle Tesla's elsewhere because someone was asking a stupid price for them.

Damien-The expensive one's are made sometime in the 60's at Roznov, Czechoslovakia . I think the earliest version had a double number code. I would still take a set of Mullard's though over the Tesla's.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> wakjob-Are all of the xF2's the same construction? By that I mean are they all single getters, or are some of them dual getters?



They all appear to be single getter Marty.

Good? Bad?


----------



## damienbeale

I never noticed an audible difference, but their market value is slightly more with dual getters.


----------



## RiverRatt

Do more getters produce a better vacuum or some better environment for the tube to operate in? Sylvania went getter-crazy for awhile, and most of the Tung-Sol 5881's have three getters on top.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Two or three getters produce a better environment for the tube to operate in.

Read all about getters here.

Getter Materials


----------



## Micky

Hey guys - What is your take on the 12BH7 used in the new 5W DSL combo?


----------



## mickeydg5

Micky said:


> Hey guys - What is your take on the 12BH7 used in the new 5W DSL combo?


Do you mean the DSL15C? The SL5 is the only new 5 watt on the Marshall site.
Either of those use ECC83/12AX7 tubes and placing a 12BH7 will neuter the signal, I would think.


----------



## Micky

mickeydg5 said:


> Do you mean the DSL15C? The SL5 is the only new 5 watt on the Marshall site.
> Either of those use ECC83/12AX7 tubes and placing a 12BH7 will neuter the signal, I would think.



Nope. DSL5c: Marshall DSL5C 5w Valve Guitar Amplifier | Andertons


----------



## damienbeale

My only concern would be the limited options of replacements.

Hmmm, Electro-Harmonix, EI, GE or RCA... lemme think... 

Are there any others widely available? Given the GE's over here are less than double the EH's, I know what I'd pick...



Edit: In fact I see loads of great Sylvania's on ebay for less than new EH's...


----------



## mickeydg5

Ah, it is a new Marshall release.
Well it is being used as the power tube. Plates 12BH7 = 3.5W and ECC99 = 5W.
Is it a EH (12BH7) or JJ (ECC99) deal?
No reviews found and I have no idea what it would sound like. It must be setup as a push-pull triode power amplifier ???.


----------



## Micky

Yeah, I am trying to obtain the schematic as I type this.
I will bet it is push-pull...


----------



## mickeydg5

Blackstar HT-5 type (competition) anyone?


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a *lot* of 12BH7A's lying around. Thank you Marshall!


----------



## damienbeale

Time to put the prices up then, Alan, and pimp them for all it's worth.


----------



## blackie13

After getting the NOS preamp tube SET from Alan I end up with a tungsram-raytheon-sylvania in the preamp section of my modded 2204...
Now I need something for the power amp section(Nos are kind of addiction).
I currently run a pair of TAD el34's...
They are kinda big...they remind me of a 6l6...
The sound is ok...just ok...nothing amazing...
Big big bottom but not the nice mids of a EL34...
Any suggestions?
NOS or CP...(prefer nos...you know well why)

(please not over 80$ for the nos pair)


----------



## damienbeale

You're unlikely to find any true NOS for $80 a pair. Even later RFT's are running to more than that. Even current production Winged C's go for that in some places.


----------



## blackie13

damienbeale said:


> You're unlikely to find any true NOS for $80 a pair. Even later RFT's are running to more than that. Even current production Winged C's go for that in some places.



Ok then...
Don't mind the price...
Don't overdo it though...


----------



## damienbeale

It's still going to be RFT's you're looking at, all the others are too expensive.

Don't be put off by this, RFT's can be grrrrrrreat. Especially if you can find earlier ones. The only downside is, you need to choose your seller. RFT did different gradings of tubes. Some were for local distribution only and were pretty poor compared to the top tested export tubes.

It's pretty rare to find the graded RFT's with the triangles these days though, but if you do see any matched ones with a zero in a triangle, these are about as good as you'll find. And the 60's and 70's tubes are in stiff competition with Mullards, but with a different flavour. Some people actually prefer RFT's. Avoid those with a 2 in a triangle at all costs.

$100 a pair is easy enough to find, but some of the guys here may be able to beat that. I've got a few sets myself that I might be willing to let go of, but international shipping (from UK) might kill it, value-wise.


----------



## blackie13

damienbeale said:


> It's still going to be RFT's you're looking at, all the others are too expensive.
> 
> Don't be put off by this, RFT's can be grrrrrrreat. Especially if you can find earlier ones. The only downside is, you need to choose your seller. RFT did different gradings of tubes. Some were for local distribution only and were pretty poor compared to the top tested export tubes.
> 
> It's pretty rare to find the graded RFT's with the triangles these days though, but if you do see any matched ones with a zero in a triangle, these are about as good as you'll find. And the 60's and 70's tubes are in stiff competition with Mullards, but with a different flavour. Some people actually prefer RFT's. Avoid those with a 2 in a triangle at all costs.
> 
> $100 a pair is easy enough to find, but some of the guys here may be able to beat that. I've got a few sets myself that I might be willing to let go of, but international shipping (from UK) might kill it, value-wise.



Don't worry about the shipping...I am in europe...My tech has some RFT's...I have aslo found a pair of Ei el34s for 80$...
Are they worth it?


----------



## damienbeale

blackie13 said:


> Don't worry about the shipping...I am in europe...My tech has some RFT's...I have aslo found a pair of Ei el34s for 80$...
> Are they worth it?



NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Most EI EL34's fail instantly. More often than not they would replate straight away. They were the laughing stock even back in the day. Pretty much anybody will tell you this. Speak to your tech about the RFT's. They're a lot easier to find in eastern europe in particular, but like I said, there are a lot of the domestic grade (with gradings removed, or just not present) around.


----------



## blackie13

How about these:

Siemens Dimple Top EL34 6CA7 National Electronics RFT Tubes Germany Matched Pair | eBay

EL34 6CA7 RFT Tubes Tested Same Codes Qty 2 | eBay

Matched Pair of RFT Ultron EL34 Tubes Dimple Top Tested | eBay

2X EL34 6CA7 RFT Siemens Tubes Same Serie | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

I may be getting a quad of Mullard Xf2's but they will be staying in the Dynaco ST-70 that they came with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you get the Dynaco, make sure it is in good working order. You don't want to blow an xF2.


----------



## blackie13

Just saw this:
EL34 Siemens NOS TAD PREMIUM Valve - TAD Power Tubes SELECTED

Is this a rebraded chinese or real NOS?


----------



## damienbeale

That's RFT's all right, but at an obscene price.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A pair of NOS RFT's should be between $100 and $125 for the pair..."A" stock.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Here's my review. I just got pairs of Winged =C= and GT EL34-M and tested them in my DSL. I will say this, the Winged =C= are awesome tubes loved what they did for my tone, just opened everything up real nice and crunchy. GT EL34-M were not as good as I was expecting they had way too much compression for my liking and lacked bottom end that I'm used to with my KT77s. The =C= will be going in my 2204 as soon as I get a bias probe and the DSL will continue with KT77. I will try KT77 in my 2204 as soon as I can.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dude, give the EL34M's another chance. You have to bias them at around 60% to get those babies to give up the goods. On my DSL, that was around 36-38mA. I thought the =C= tubes were nice and crunchy. I kept a set of them as a spare when I had the DSL50. The EL34M's were very close to the RFT pair I replaced them with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another positive Winged C comment. 

I think for the money, the GT EL34M's are a good option.

Then there are the TAD EL34's. For the money, they got good reviews.


----------



## paul-e-mann

RiverRatt said:


> Dude, give the EL34M's another chance. You have to bias them at around 60% to get those babies to give up the goods. On my DSL, that was around 36-38mA. I thought the =C= tubes were nice and crunchy. I kept a set of them as a spare when I had the DSL50. The EL34M's were very close to the RFT pair I replaced them with.



I had them at 38mA. Both my channels were noticeably compressed, I cant have that. They will become spares. RR you dont think they sound compressed at all?


----------



## paul-e-mann

What are these tubes?? They sound awesome! Are they reliable? They came with my Weber kit, I have a quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Shuguang's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't notice them being compressed sounding at all. I sold that DSL to a guy who worked at the Gibson repair facility in downtown Nashvegas. Those are the tubes I put in the amp and he loved it. He said he'd wanted a DSL to use at work because his boss had one and he liked it, and he was really happy with the tone he got from my amp.

I should have never sold that DSL. I used the money to buy a Vintage Modern head from Cody, who has apparently left the forum unless he's still hanging out in the 6100 thread. I shouldn't have sold that amp either. It was purple, and we all know that purple tolex sounds better.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Shuguang are cheap as hell and sound incredible for the money. I highly recommend them, I'd like to know about their reliability.


----------



## RiverRatt

If I don't use an old tube in an amp, I'll use a Shuguang 12AX7 every time. They have made some nice tubes. Your Groove Tubes EL34M's were made by Shuguang.


----------



## paul-e-mann

RiverRatt said:


> If I don't use an old tube in an amp, I'll use a Shuguang 12AX7 every time. They have made some nice tubes. Your Groove Tubes EL34M's were made by Shuguang.



The GT EL34M and Shuguang EL34-B sound totally different from each other the B sounding way better. I have a set of Shuguang 12AX7's and they sound good too. No more pricey tubes for me any more.


----------



## damienbeale

If that's how you feel then EL34's might not be for you.
To my ears, the Shuguang EL34B sounds least like an EL34, with a punchier, bolder, more 6550 like flavour to it, without the thick mid-breakup of a decent EL34.

I'm not saying it's a bad tube, far from it, they're also VERY strong tubes, but for EL34 sounds I don't rate them.


----------



## paul-e-mann

damienbeale said:


> If that's how you feel then EL34's might not be for you.
> To my ears, the Shuguang EL34B sounds least like an EL34, with a punchier, bolder, more 6550 like flavour to it, without the thick mid-breakup of a decent EL34.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a bad tube, far from it, they're also VERY strong tubes, but for EL34 sounds I don't rate them.



I have no experience with EL34 these are my first. I've only had E34L which I don't like and KT77 which I love. But as far as EL34 I really like the Winged =C= these will go in my 2204. And the Shuguang I was really surprised about them, I was expecting cheap crummy sound but they sound really good, these will go in my 2203 kit. The GT EL34M just added that compression I don't like, everybody on this site was raving about them so I was very interested to try them. I'll keep them as spares or maybe just sell them.

So what are your favorite EL34 tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

GT EL34M's 

Seriously, the best EL34 I've used would have to be RFT's. I've had real Mullards but never when I owned an EL34 amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there isn't any USA EL34's as we all know they are 6CA7's and they have a different mojo (but I really like fat boy Sylvania 6CA7's).

As far as Philips goes, I believe Mullard was the only manufacturer of EL34's and Amperex would just relabel Mullards.

Tesla's tend to have problems (unless they are real early versions) and Ei's were pretty much junk.

That leaves the most relabeled power tube ever, the mighty RFT.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think power tube bias plays a part in final sound of a tube amplifier. A good tube can be made to sound crappy or less attractive if not biased appropriately.

That is why you have so many people complaining about KK amplifiers and KT88 tubes sounding less than adequate only to find out the bias was set too low.

And all tubes have their own character and therefore setting depending upon the amplifier and listener/owners preferences. Also to mention is that some character may follow manufacture but not all of it all of the time.

I am just saying that one set of Shuguang tubes setup at 36mA may not sound like another in a given amplifier and that goes for comparing tubes of other manufacture as well.

So it is good to always experiment with a set of tubes in an amplifier to see what gives the best and most desired results within safe operation. And I understand that sometimes a set of tubes best just does not do it but you may find that another set of the same type of tubes will.

I just did not read anyone mention this so I thought I would.
Yes it makes it sound like rolling power tube sets to see what works best while looking for consistency.


----------



## paul-e-mann

I've always heard 38mA is the best happy medium for setting bias (is this just on 50 watters?). I've had a couple different techs bias amps for me and they always came back at 38mA without me asking, and everything I've read on this forum people say 38mA. So what I've always heard is setting bias too high will kill your tube life, and setting to low will result in thin crummy tone. 38mA is the happy medium to me based on info I've read, so I wouldnt know to tweak higher or lower from there. I guess the best way to figure the happy medium for any amp is to calculate 60-70% of the plate voltage of said amp? My goal is to have tubes and bias settings when set will decrease as much compression as possible and have a more open tone, that is my goal. Switching between several tube brands set at the same bias I got different end results creating various levels of compression or lack of compression. I guess I need to figure out the plate voltages of my amps and figure out the right bias settings for each rather than use the same across the board?


----------



## iron broadsword

Hey if I can do it anybody can.. My plate voltage is 487 if I remember right, and I like my 4100 at 43ma with sovtek 6l6wxt+'s. Only takes a couple minutes to check plate voltage.. you just clamp one end of a mulitimeter to chassis and the other to a certain pin on one of the power tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

That last post was a general statement and not directed towards anyone.

38mA is a known average for EL34 tubes at Marshall type voltages.
It is best to calculate to find a value but test that value with those specific tubes in the amplifier at low and high volumes. A little higher or lower could make a difference. The other thing I notice is that most do not include screen current when calculating.

Now look at Iron Broadsword's numbers. How many people use 43ma at 487VDC. Most would consider that high.

I like to run some of my EL34 tubes at about 42mA. Like I mentioned though it depends on the amplifier and the tubes. Some may consider that on the high side as well. But I listen to and feel the sound before deciding where to stop. Yes I have a crappier set of EL34 tubes that do not sound good to me in my amplifiers no matter where I set the bias. Some of these guys know these tubes and can tell you about them; the infamous Sovtek EL34G+ having higher end fizz distortion with less overall power and bass presence.

Again one set of brand tubes may sound best at 43mA while the another set of the same may sound best at 35mA. That is why there was tube rating systems by some distributors. Tubes would be grouped per actual reactions under specific conditions, a step(s) beyond just matching.


----------



## damienbeale

pedecamp said:


> I have no experience with EL34 these are my first. I've only had E34L which I don't like and KT77 which I love. But as far as EL34 I really like the Winged =C= these will go in my 2204. And the Shuguang I was really surprised about them, I was expecting cheap crummy sound but they sound really good, these will go in my 2203 kit. The GT EL34M just added that compression I don't like, everybody on this site was raving about them so I was very interested to try them. I'll keep them as spares or maybe just sell them.
> 
> So what are your favorite EL34 tubes?



My favourites?

Probably the late 60's Tesla's that I had, that sadly went pop a long while back. Next faves, Mullard XF2, then 60's RFT's, then 70's Tesla's, after those probably 70's and 80's RFT's, then XF3 and XF4 Mullards.
Favourite current tubes I normally say Winged C, but the last of my customer stocks are 2006 stock, which may or may not be better than the current breed, but I couldn't tell you. My '99 and '00 Winged C's are certainly better than my '06 stock.

For myself, I won't use anything else. I often push customers to use Winged C's, but since the prices are now crazy, most just want to fit cheap JJ's, which I abhor. I'd rather fit Mullard re-issues (which are now very tricky to find in the UK, as are GT's), but TAD's are probably the only other option over here nowadays. I certainly don't rate any of the other New Sensor EL34's.


----------



## damienbeale

38mA means absolutely nothing to me, and is a throwaway figure. I usually use my ears, and check/calculate sensible limits.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I finally talked the guy out of the Dynaco ST-70. It came with a quad of =C='s in it, plus I got the original quad of Mullard Xf2's, two 7199's, and a Mullard GZ34. Not a bad haul.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't know he had the set of Winged C's. That is a plus. Those are good enough for the Dynaco and if the xF2's are good and matched, that should bring some $$$.

I hope the trade was good for you, as what we discussed over the phone.


----------



## RiverRatt

I traded him my Laney AOR 30, a Hickok 800 tester, and a guitar neck and body. I doubt if I had more than $150 invested in all that. I'll test the EL34's later on this evening and see what I have. The Xf2's are all B3 date codes. 

I like that the Dynaco has a mono option. I'm going to try it into my 2x12, driving it with the preamp out on my Egnater just to see how it sounds as a guitar amp. I have a couple of JBL cabs on my recording setup. That's what I wanted it for. 

Some of you audiophiles give me some advice; should I keep the 7199 PI tubes or re-wire the sockets for 6AN8's or 6GH8A's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's not like the 7199's are hard to find. There are still plenty listed on EBAY. If you have two good 7199's they will last you a long time.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 7199's are about the same price as a good 12AX7, but it wasn't a widely used tube and there isn't a direct replacement. I'd feel safer having a couple of spares. Of course, I have boxes of 6GH8A's and a decent supply of 6AN8. There's a guy on eBay selling 7199 to 6GH8A adapters with tubes for $35, or I could re-wire the socket myself. It's an easy 2-wire swap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you feel the performance will be suitable with a tube substitute, do what you feel best. If I could convert my 8417 amp to 6550's at a reasonable cost, I would do it, but four 6550's, a new output xfrmr and circuit tweaks prevents this.

8417's have double the transconductance of 6550's. I was doing some research on converting the amp and one tech stated, "Why would anyone want to use an 8417 in a guitar amp?" 

Why couldn't this have been a 6550 amp? Sheez! When I bought it, the seller didn't state what tubes were in it. I thought it was 6L6's or 6550's. Just my luck, it is a 1972 amp and Randall decided to use the last power tube ever designed.

And the GE 8417's were prone to explode and catch on fire.

I will say that if I was a bass player, the Randall would be really good for that.


----------



## mickeydg5

Which 8417 amplifier? Is it a guitar amp?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it's a rare 1972 Randall RG-150. (Rumor has it that these were built by Standel for Randall.) This is an "Alpha" version. I bought it in 2007 from a music store in Las Vegas. This was an EBAY listing. The seller did not state what power tubes it used, so as I said, I assumed they were 6L6's or 6550's.

It is a hybrid with a SS preamp, 12AT7 PI tube and (4) 8417's. It has two channels, but you have to use an AB/Y switcher. The 8417's are as powerful as a KT88, but they have more transconductance than any other power tube and this requires a special OPT.









The inner pair are GE's and the outer pair are Sylvania's. This is what I ended up with to make a matched quad. I bought (12) 8417's to get four that were matched. This was a very expensive endeavor as the average price is about $75 per tube. Of course I sold the 8 tubes I did not use and made some of my money back.

The 8417's in there tested very high and probably will last a long time (as long as the GE's don't catch on fire). Even so, people aren't interested in buying an amp that uses obscure, expensive power tubes.

Oh, the outputs are mounted on the chassis which is sort of odd, as the power cord drapes over the back panel.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty
In regards to the Randall RG150, I am curious to know why you suspect the output transformer not to work with other tubes. What lead you to the conclusion that it needs to be replaced?

I am sure some stuff will have to be tweaked for new tubes but I think that there is a possibility it will have to do more with the preamp/PI.

Do you have a schematic for the amplifier?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I reached that conclusion by reading some forum comments from guys that have converted 8417 amps. In one case, someone put 6550's in an 8417 amp and it blew the OPT. I looked and I found the schematic for my Randall RG-90, but I don't see a schematic for the RG-150. IIRC I did get one from my buddy Gary Sunda. Maybe it got tossed when I moved a year ago. Speaking of Gary, maybe I should hear what he has to say about the feasibility of converting this amp over to 6550's.



> After looking up the info on the 8417, the closest tube that comes to it spec wise is the 6550 (and the like). I have ordered and received a Hammond 1650R (OP) transformer which has a 5k primary, which is what the 6550 likes.



I can't find any info on what the primary value is for an 8417 OPT.



> One of the problems I've had in converting 8417s to 6550 operation (why anyone would use 8417s in a guitar amp in the first place is beyond my comprehension) is lack of sufficient AF drive for the 6550s. With roughly half the transconductance of the 8417, the 6550 needs considerably more AF input to the grid to get it to put out an equivalent amount of power. Anticipate doing some phase inverter and/or driver tweaking, along with changing the global feedback.





> The Sylvania data sheet for a pair of 8417's gives an operating point of 560V plate, 300V screen and 4200 ohm P-P per pair, for 100W out. If your amp doesn't match these, you have to modify the PS, get a new PT, get a new OPT or all of the above. That may not be cheaper than buying tubes.



Can I replace 8417 with 6550 tubes?

These 8417 amps run a high plate voltage and a much lower screen voltage. I'm assuming that they have a dual rail power supply.

And the other point I have already mentioned is the cost of buying (4) 6550's. If I do this, I'll end up taking a big loss. Hell with what I spent on the 8417's I'm already upside down on this amp. 

I paid $300 for the RG-150 thinking it used common power tubes. FAIL!


----------



## RiverRatt

Bah! Two of the Dynaco Mullards were bad and the other two are well-used. I guess they will join my not-quite-new collection of 6L6GC's. they should be good in my Tweaker 15 head. The =C= quad all checked in at near new. 60% on the TV-7 is 30. Three of them tested at 53 and the fourth tested at 51.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey-I reached that conclusion by reading some forum comments from guys that have converted 8417 amps. In one case, someone put 6550's in an 8417 amp and it blew the OPT. I looked and I found the schematic for my Randall RG-90, but I don't see a schematic for the RG-150. IIRC I did get one from my buddy Gary Sunda. Maybe it got tossed when I moved a year ago. Speaking of Gary, maybe I should hear what he has to say about the feasibility of converting this amp over to 6550's.
> 
> I can't find any info on what the primary value is for an 8417 OPT.
> 
> Can I replace 8417 with 6550 tubes?
> 
> These 8417 amps run a high plate voltage and a much lower screen voltage. I'm assuming that they have a dual rail power supply.
> 
> And the other point I have already mentioned is the cost of buying (4) 6550's. If I do this, I'll end up taking a big loss. Hell with what I spent on the 8417's I'm already upside down on this amp.
> 
> I paid $300 for the RG-150 thinking it used common power tubes. FAIL!


 
That is the thing. An 8417 is similar to the rest of those tubes but much more efficient. Its circuits are designed around that. But I would tend to believe that the OT is similar to what the other tubes use. I think the Randall RG150 puts out more power than the average Marshall so the OT should be heavier. The 8417 was designed to generate high AF output as the KT88 and 6550 types but with a much lower input.

That guy may have blown the OT but why and did the tube(s) go with it?

You just have to be careful with circuit modifications and that is where a schematic is necessary to see what is going on in that amplifier.

So it may be an interesting project but in the long run I do not know if it is worth the effort. That depends on the person and the amplifier.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Randall puts out 172 watts with around 5% distortion. If I modded the amp's bias circuit for 6550's, it would only put out around 120+ watts. If I did a major circuit mod, it would be more like 140+ watts.

Although this is a rare amp, it is not desirable. It's not worth putting any money into it. The 8417's in it are good for at least 3000 hours and I don't even play it except to turn it on from time to time.


----------



## mickeydg5

What is weird is that four 8417 power tubes go for more than the entire Randall RG150 head intact. That makes no sense at all.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That is correct.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know a guy who would probably give me a quad of 8417 tubes. He already tried to once.

Got to run... I'll tell you an early Halloween story when I get back. It's about a couple who came back from the dead.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I know a guy who would probably give me a quad of 8417 tubes. He already tried to once.



 And you didn't take them?


----------



## RiverRatt

I told you I had them and I got the impression that they were worthless. Tales of fire and brimstone and all that (they were GE).

Back from the dead - I tested those two Mullard Xf2's that tested bad just to see how weak they were. They each pegged the needle at a steady 42 (30 is minimum good). That's better to me than the ones that tested at 40 and 50. Those two actually tested a little higher but 50 and 40 was where the needle fell to. That usually means a weak tube or one that's on it's way out. Those two were probably on the side where he was running the 6AN8 as a direct sub for the 7199 PI tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Shameless plug: Mullard Xf2 pair in the classifieds.


----------



## Redstone

Can anyone describe how KT88s would sound in a Plexi compared to EL34s please.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You have to run the KT88's as a 25 watt tube. (Same as 6550's). Although some have biased them at 35 watts and this may put a strain on the power transformer.

Running the KT88's as a 25 watt tubes makes them appear to be cleaner sounding. (I call it "sterile.") They won't have the mid growl of an EL34. This is why 6550's and KT88's are preferred by metal players.


----------



## Stymie13

I'm getting ready to drop KT88s into my Orange R30 which runs cathode biased EL34s stock. Just bought a Classic Tone 50W plexi OT off another forum member to go with it. The PT on this amp is HUGE so it'll be interesting to see how the KT88s sound compared to E34Ls I'm running before and after swapping the OT. I'll post up in the "other amps" thread because I'm also going low power first. Gonna pull one of the cathode resistors, drop a pair of 6V6s in it and run a 16 ohm 4x12 on the 8 ohm out. Sucks not playing in a band right now but I'm really starting to dig tinkering with all the gear I got laying around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That will be interesting. It is my understanding that lower wattage EL34 amps tend to run lower B+ which would not translate well with the KT88's.

Does the Classic Tone OT have higher B+?


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I will be on vacation until October 21. Going to Phoenix.*


----------



## RiverRatt

Have a good time and stay safe, bro. We'll be here when you get back.


----------



## Stymie13

MartyStrat54 said:


> That will be interesting. It is my understanding that lower wattage EL34 amps tend to run lower B+ which would not translate well with the KT88's.
> 
> Does the Classic Tone OT have higher B+?



Not sure Marty. I'll throw a meter on it when I get the thing apart. If it doesn't sound good, I'll just swap back to either E34Ls or 6V6, whichever sound better. Have a good vacation!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Something new in the world of octal power tubes. 70 watt rating. A pair of these in a properly designed amp would be pushing 150+ watts. Or how about a single ended amp? I dig the egg shaped glass. It supposedly eliminates microphonics.






www.thetubestore.com - Tung-Sol KT150 Audio Tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tung-Sol, Genalex and Mullard introduce new GZ34's.

www.thetubestore.com - 5AR4 / GZ34 Tube Types


----------



## mickeydg5

I wonder if they perform any better than the regular Sovtek?

Lets see if anyone does some testing.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Something new in the world of octal power tubes. 70 watt rating. A pair of these in a properly designed amp would be pushing 150+ watts. Or how about a single ended amp? I dig the egg shaped glass. It supposedly eliminates microphonics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thetubestore.com - Tung-Sol KT150 Audio Tubes



It looks like a butt plug. What are its specs? Is it a direct sub for anything?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, it is a lot like guys who put 6550's or KT88's in a Marshall amp. The power supply just isn't there for these high wattage tubes, "but" they will still work and this is why people use them. I'm sure that someone will stick these KT150's in something with an inadequate power supply.

Word of caution: The KT150 heaters demand 20 percent more current!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Too bad the KT150's weren't around in the early 70's. Imagine the behemoths that would have been made using four of these? Of course an amp with 300 watts output would have iron the size of a dog house.

HEAVY!

There is a kit available that uses a single KT88 and it is one bad ass sounding amp. I had thought of building one, but man they want a lot of money for the kit, especially if you buy the punched out chassis option.

Just took a look and I couldn't find the kit available anymore. Hmm? Maybe too expensive and no one bought it.

Here is a homemade KT88 amp. I really like the tone when he cranks it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqA4Gzn1yY]A class Single Ended 30W guitar amp KT88 test - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

When I test a 6550/KT88 on my TV-7, I have to do like the NFL and mark it based on forward progress. When you push the test button the needle sticks on the highest number for maybe one second & then starts to plummet. I had the same problem when I tested that Western Electric 300B. Those big bottles sound really good but you are right - they are greedy bastards. If I can find one of my octal test sockets I'm going to check and see what's going on with the tester. I think it's the filament supply but it could be the plate voltage. The last time I tested a 6550 I had to increase the voltage on the line adjust control a good quarter turn higher than a 6L6GC.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to pass this KT150 info along to a friend who is into HAM radio and specifically into building ultralinear amps that hit 1200 watts. Give him a box of those KT150's and we'd be having rolling brown-outs.


----------



## johnfv

Just a quick comment on the TAD EL34. Played them again at a rehearsal tonight and I'm having a hard time thinking of an EL34 I have liked more. As an added benefit they do not resemble a butt plug


----------



## sccloser

Bump for thread revival! LOL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Double bump!


----------



## Stymie13

Anyone got a use for a pair of JJ KT88s? I bought a matched pair for my Rocker 30 but can't fit them because I can't get the correct value bias resistors fitted to the board.Brand new, unused with receipt for $76. Open to trades for a pair of JJ KT77s, E34Ls, Shuguang EL34BSTRs, or TADs + $20 or...?

EDIT: Never mind, I figured out how to make 'em work.


----------



## johnfv

*6L6 cloudy at base - any concerns?*

I decided to pick up a quad of TAD 6L6s during one of the black friday sales (I've noticed one of my '80s vintage GT labeled RCA 6L6 tubes is getting a bit microphonic). The TADs test fine in my VT1000 and sound fine in my Showman amp. However, one of them has some cloudiness around the base (pics attached). Anyone think this something to be concerned about? I don't recall seeing that "cloudy" look in a tube other than bad ones. Two pics, one with flash, one without. The flash is out of focus but you can really see the cloudy part.


----------



## Dizzyg12

Just picked up some jj el34s for spares to the dsl40 $50 down from $70

They had sovtek, ruby, and svetlanta but I wasn't sure about those. I know I like jjs and EH.

What's the scoop on the others?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sovtek = Junk
Svetlanta = New Sensor = Marginal
Ruby = Shuguang = Better choice than the JJ. 

I do like the JJ E34L in some amps for an 80's hard rock application.


----------



## yladrd61

I just got a Ceriatone, '69 JMP 50 watt plexi combo. It had some low time GT EL34M's, so I put them in and biased up to 62% I am very impressed with these. I will see how long they last getting hammered by 2 greenbacks in a combo  PS: I also put 2 strong I63 Blackburns in V1 and V2


----------



## MartyStrat54

<I63's>

The GT EL34M's are a very good tube for the money. I really like them for classic/hard rock applications. RiverRatt gave me a pair to try back in 2009 and I found them to be very close in tone to a Winged C.

My new number one CP EL34 is the TAD.


----------



## mickeydg5

*Re: 6L6 cloudy at base - any concerns?*



johnfv said:


> I decided to pick up a quad of TAD 6L6s
> Anyone think this something to be concerned about? I don't recall seeing that "cloudy" look in a tube other than bad ones. Two pics, one with flash, one without. The flash is out of focus but you can really see the cloudy part.


I know I have seen that around preamp tube bases at the glass seams. I do not recall having seen it in power tube glass curves though. If they test and sound good then .


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it's not milky white in color. It looks to be impurities in the glass itself. On preamp tubes where the bottle is attached to the base there is a gray ring in the glass, but looking at your picture it appears that the gray area does not go completely around the base of the tube.

I think you are fine.


----------



## MarshallDog

Guys, I have a new DSL40C that is working and sounding great. However, the other day when I turned it on I let it warm up for a few minutes, maybe 2, then took the amp off standby and noticed a faint static type sound fading in and out with some light cracking popping and hissing. If I turned up the volume or gain the sounds didn't get louder or change at all and if the amp was put back into standby the faint noises stopped. So I replaced the preamp tubes with new ones and still the same thing. I then replaced the power tubes with new ones and it went away so I was guessing the tubes were starting to fail?? Well tonight I turned on the amp and let it warm about 2 min before taking it out of standby and I heard just a touch of the same thing but it was much less and lasted only a min or so. Is this sound caused because I am not letting the tubes warm up 100% or do you think something else might be going on? The tubes are new JJ EL34's and the amp sounds great. Thanks for your help on this one!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

What you have done should not be of any concern. Most guys don't even use the standby switch. 

A power tube on its way to being bad will make the noises you describe.

Just so you know I have seen guys replace bad power tubes with new one's out of the box that were bad as well. That doesn't surprise me at all.

Just keep an eye on the JJ's and check the bias every two weeks to see if one of the tubes is drifting.


----------



## MarshallDog

MartyStrat54 said:


> What you have done should not be of any concern. Most guys don't even use the standby switch.
> 
> A power tube on its way to being bad will make the noises you describe.
> 
> Just so you know I have seen guys replace bad power tubes with new one's out of the box that were bad as well. That doesn't surprise me at all.
> 
> Just keep an eye on the JJ's and check the bias every two weeks to see if one of the tubes is drifting.



Thanks Bro. I have been reading some similar type Threads since I posted this and it seems that it might be two bad sets of tubes. I bought them at the same time as a matched quad. I guess if it was anything too serious, it would not go away and the amp might have other symptoms and sound like shit, right? I do have a brand new set on order and will rebias and watch the values over time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a lot of guys here like JJ's, but JJ's have gone down in quality over the past couple of years and I don't see it getting any better.

You probably did get a bad quad and both pairs appear to have a bad tube present.

I would suggest in the future getting a pair of GT EL34M's, Ruby Shuguangs or TAD EL34B's. A few extra bucks gets you a lot better tube.


----------



## MarshallDog

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a lot of guys here like JJ's, but JJ's have gone down in quality over the past couple of years and I don't see it getting any better.
> 
> You probably did get a bad quad and both pairs appear to have a bad tube present.
> 
> I would suggest in the future getting a pair of GT EL34M's, Ruby Shuguangs or TAD EL34B's. A few extra bucks gets you a lot better tube.



Marty, thanks for the advise. If I just switched from Mullards to JJ's as I THINK I like the thicker slightly darker tone over the Mullards. If this keeps up, the JJ's will be history...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can get a darker tone by running a JJ ECC83 (12AX7) in V1 and then run a pair of the tubes I suggested for better reliability.


----------



## EndGame00

Shugs are louder and has plenty of headroom than JJ el34's


----------



## MarshallDog

I buy all of my tubes from the Tube Store. Their pricing is great and their customer service is by far the best IMO and I get the tubes in 2 days seeing as they are just across the board in Hamilton, ON. So, I contacted them this morning and explained what I was experiencing and they agreed that it is most likely bad tubes. Because I am a loyal customer and they feel I know what I'm doing when it comes to biasing and trouble shooting, they asked me to send them back and they will send out (4) new matched tubes for no charge even though they are out of warranty (about 9 months old), that makes me smile. I also asked them about JJ's quality and they said that the older JJ EL34's had quality issues and they experienced this and stopped offering JJ EL34's. They now only offer JJ E34L's and they said they are excellent tubes and have only experienced less than a 3% early failure rate over the many thousands they have sold which is the same and/or less than the other quality brand even in combo's. Unfortunately, I am one of the unlucky ones that must have gotten a bad quad of them. So I will change them out and see what happens. If this becomes an issue, I will probably go back to Mullards seeing as I have a good stock of them and they were my favorite until I tried the JJ's.


----------



## damienbeale

MarshallDog said:


> Guys, I have a new DSL40C that is working and sounding great. However, the other day when I turned it on I let it warm up for a few minutes, maybe 2, then took the amp off standby and noticed a faint static type sound fading in and out with some light cracking popping and hissing. If I turned up the volume or gain the sounds didn't get louder or change at all and if the amp was put back into standby the faint noises stopped. So I replaced the preamp tubes with new ones and still the same thing. I then replaced the power tubes with new ones and it went away so I was guessing the tubes were starting to fail?? Well tonight I turned on the amp and let it warm about 2 min before taking it out of standby and I heard just a touch of the same thing but it was much less and lasted only a min or so. Is this sound caused because I am not letting the tubes warm up 100% or do you think something else might be going on? The tubes are new JJ EL34's and the amp sounds great. Thanks for your help on this one!!!



I wouldn't expect the power tubes to be failing already, and 2 minutes on standby should be more than enough.

Having said that, I wonder if the DSL40C suffers the same bias circuit cockup that the Haze 40 did...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well let me say that "all" current production tubes will have bad batches. This would include shorted internal components, poor vacuum and inadequate burn in tests. 

From what I have heard, JJ's quality control has gotten worse, especially on their power tubes. I will say that I have used and recommended the JJ E34L as a great 80's hair/glam tone. I never cared much for the JJ EL34.

That was mighty nice of the Tube Store. I hope that you get some good tubes and are happy with them.


----------



## damienbeale

I've never been mad on their power tubes. Stopped using them a while back now. NEVER used them for myself, nor ever would.


----------



## MarshallDog

damienbeale said:


> I wouldn't expect the power tubes to be failing already, and 2 minutes on standby should be more than enough.
> 
> Having said that, I wonder if the DSL40C suffers the same bias circuit cockup that the Haze 40 did...



What do you mean by the 40C Haze having a "cockup"? I had one and sold it when I got my DSL40C. I never had any tube issues with the Haze 40C. The two sets of tubes I have used in the DSL40C have been lightly used in my other amps but nothing all that much and are 6-9 months old. I have had 1 or 2 Mullards die in the past also with little use on them in other amps so maybe this is just a bad quad that I got plus I believe all mfg's of tubes had some bad ones from time to time. Another thing is that the Tube Store was shocked to hear that they sent out a quad with a "Perfect Pair" plate current number of 50 which he said was rather high and not good for guitar amps better for audio and he was surprised I could get them biased. I didn't ask for details on this because I had to get going. If I run into more issues with JJ E34L's, I will be going back to Mullards most likely...


----------



## Micky

Looks like I will need a 12BV7 for a spare - Anyone got a good one?


----------



## johnfv

Wow. What a flurry of activity here in the power tubes aisle! 

Carry on, Gents!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> Looks like I will need a 12BV7 for a spare - Anyone got a good one?



If it's for use in a ham radio, you can sub it with a 12BY7 (9BF pinout).

Either one is common and cheap on EBAY.

Matched Pair Sylvania USA 12BV7 12BY7A 12DQ7 Black Plate Vacuum Tube | eBay


----------



## Micky

Sorry, I meant 12BH7. Senior moment...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are plentiful and cheap as well.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

What can you tell me about these tubes .... any good ?


Tung Sol 7581


----------



## mickeydg5

7581 were the last of the 6L6 family, industrial version of the 6L6GC.

The current production review at Tubestore is promising but I do not know of anyone who has tried them. I have read where old stock seem to have a little more headroom and are cleaner. I am guessing that current production may be similar but a little warmer.
It would be cool to hear some comments from users.


----------



## MartyStrat54

These tubes were introduced in early 2012 IIRC. This of course is a reissue of a NOS Tung-Sol 7581. These originally came out when the tube manufacturers where in a wattage war. RCA had the 7027, but it has a slightly different pin out, but you can still use 7027's in a 6L6GC amp with some minor rewiring. (Ampegs used 7027's.)

Both the 7027 and 7581 were touted as "super" 6L6's. Both have 35 watt dissipation (30 on the plates and 5 on the screens).

Tung-Sol claims they have a wider frequency range and more headroom. I have heard that they are very nice in a vintage Fender amp.

I couldn't find any reviews, which is strange since they have been on the market for almost two years.

Give them a go HT and write a review on them. See if they are better than the TAD's.


----------



## RickyLee

I was working on an amp last night and broke one JJ E34L of a matched pair. It was an older set with some good hours, but a set I use when working on amps.

I pulled out another EL34 which was an older Svetlana (possibly one of the older =C=) and it biased up within a few mA of the single JJ E34L. I know I can use these together for working on this amp. BUT . . . .

Has anyone here purposely tried running different makes of power valves together? I thought I read some threads here in the past where people experimented with this a bit.

I know that being these are not matched for transconductance that the operating curves will be quite different. But if you were to take a current reading ( DC ) as well as AC audio signal reading while under load, and the readings are somewhat close, would that not give you a ballpark output of both sides of the push pull output?

But then again, what about those of you that prefer an unbalanced output section? Wouldn't this be the way to go as well as the unbalanced phase inverter section?


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> I was working on an amp last night and broke one JJ E34L of a matched pair. It was an older set with some good hours, but a set I use when working on amps.
> 
> I pulled out another EL34 which was an older Svetlana (possibly one of the older =C=) and it biased up within a few mA of the single JJ E34L. I know I can use these together for working on this amp. BUT . . . .
> 
> Has anyone here purposely tried running different makes of power valves together? I thought I read some threads here in the past where people experimented with this a bit.
> 
> I know that being these are not matched for transconductance that the operating curves will be quite different. But if you were to take a current reading ( DC ) as well as AC audio signal reading while under load, and the readings are somewhat close, would that not give you a ballpark output of both sides of the push pull output?
> 
> But then again, what about those of you that prefer an unbalanced output section? Wouldn't this be the way to go as well as the unbalanced phase inverter section?


You can mix brands. The tubes are built of the same specifications so if they are biasing close enough for operation, its no problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ricky, do you remember Steelhorse? He had an amp that was running two KT66's and two KT88's. According to him it was tits.

After I read that, I ran a pair of Sylvania 6CA7's with a pair of Mullard xF2's in a TSL100. 

My conclusion? It's taking cork sniffing a little too far.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Well i got a boner for some new glass , and i was just poking around the net and seeing whats available that i have not tryed ... I know Marty would like me to get some NOS vintage stuff , i just don't have any experience with those older tubes , rumored to be killer with the right amp !! Call me chicken ....


----------



## RickyLee

I have always been a bit stubborn regarding the NOS valves. As in, forcing myself to make my amp sound its best with new production glass. Another way I would go about it, would be to do mods to certain amps to make them sound decent with the new production valves. The mods to the amps were along the lines of taming shrill highs or fizz which some new production valves bring out or enhance. 

I kept that going for quite some time until I finally got some Mullard I61 12AX7 valves to play around with. At first, I did not notice too much difference in preamp valve rolling. But after trying this in quite a few different makes and models of guitar amps, I realized that some of the amps you could notice the difference with quality preamp valves while some it did barely make an audible change.

As for NOS poweramp valves? I have never jumped on that train yet, mostly because of the price. Though I will admit that I have a good stash of RCA 7027A's (for my Ampeg V4's) and the old GT KT66HP's that I am saving for that day I get my recording studio put together. 

On the subject of mixing two different types of power valves, I just remembered something I tried back when I still had my TSL122 (Marty should like this one LOL). I was experimenting with the Yellow Jacket power reducers in a couple of different amps including the TSL122. And yes, this was a few years back when I was very ignorant to the dangers of those Yellow Jackets and actually was not very learned in all this Electrical and Electronics Mumbo Jumbo LOL.



Anyway, I ran a pair of the Yellow Jacket reducers with JJ EL84's AND a pair of GT KT66HP in my TSL122. And to my amazement, I could hear the textures and traits of both the KT66 AND the EL84's coming through. The Dirt channels were not too bad. But what totally blew me away with this config was that TSL122 Clean channel. Amazing. 

How I could tell that the KT66 as well as the EL84 were coming through tonally was I ran each pair alone in the amp in half power mode then put them all together again in 100W mode.

But yeah, little did I know the torture I was putting those little JJ EL84 valves through. I only ran this config that one night goofing around.


----------



## MarshallDog

The only "Vintage" tubes I own are the RFT 12AX7's and a couple of JAN 12AX7WA's. I like them both and you can really tell a difference using the RFT's with any power tube, they really mellow out the ear piercing high's of any amp IMO. The only issue I have, is that yes old vintage tubes are great BUT what happens when you get used to them, can't live w/o them and they become un-available or so high priced you just don't want to spend the cash, then what do you do??? I have been trying to find NOS that are available and lower in cost but still sound great. My favorites thus far are NOS Mullards and the JJ's. How do you guys view this or will they always be available for the next 25-50 years?


----------



## EndGame00

RickyLee said:


> Has anyone here purposely tried running different makes of power valves together? I thought I read some threads here in the past where people experimented with this a bit.



I rolled two different brands of el34's on my Fargen with Mesa-labeled Siemens/RFT and cp Tungsol on each socket.. The result was tighter and louder tone on lower volume, but it can get a little spongy when volume is cranked to 4 going up. Not much headroom from what I can hear.


----------



## damienbeale

MarshallDog said:


> What do you mean by the 40C Haze having a "cockup"?


If you look at the bias supply, you'll see it is not ideal and is prone to surging when flipping off standby. They had a habit of eating tubes quite quickly.

I hadn't even noticed it till Jon pointed it out one day...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I feel kind of bad Ricky. When I ran the 6CA7's with the xF2's I posted a comment that I could hear both, but I was being sarcastic. However, everyone who read it believed me so I didn't admit I was trying to be funny.

I remember when you were messing with those Yellow Jackets. During that same time a couple of my tube thread buddies were trying them. They had nothing but trouble and one of the guys ended up damaging his amp. I hope you gave up on those. I think they should be taken of the market. They are a potential fire hazard.


----------



## johnfv

I bought a pair of the Yellow Jackets from MF thinking it would make a substantial volume difference in my 1959. The combination of EL34 and 84 actually was tonally interesting, the volume difference was trivial. Then I noticed how hot they were getting...  

They're sitting in a drawer somewhere, not one of my best purchases.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Question ...

My plate voltage is on the higher side @ 485-490 ...
Can older school tubes handle that kinda voltage ??
( I know ...noob question !! )

ie: RCA 6L6GC Black Plate Audio Amplifier Output Electronic Vacuum Tube | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ooh! Those are prudy!






Great price. Don't know if I would say that they are a close match, but I say they would bias up in a guitar amp okay. 

No problem HT on them handling the 490 PV.


----------



## mickeydg5

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Question ...
> 
> My plate voltage is on the higher side @ 485-490 ...
> Can older school tubes handle that kinda voltage ??
> ( I know ...noob question !! )
> 
> ie: RCA 6L6GC Black Plate Audio Amplifier Output Electronic Vacuum Tube | eBay


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> Ooh! Those are prudy!
> 
> Great price. Don't know if I would say that they are a close match, but I say they would bias up in a guitar amp okay.
> 
> No problem HT on them handling the 490 PV.


Those are below 80%. New type readings are over 6000 with a 539C. Just take that into consideration when pricing.



What about these? They are in Canada, nowhere close but in Canada.

Matched Pair RCA 6L6GC Black Plate Branded Westinghouse Tube | eBay


----------



## RickyLee

I have not tinkered with the Yellow Jacket reducers in quite some time. I was experimenting with the GT versions a bit awhile back. The GT ones are built a bit better but they DO NOT reduce the plate voltage.


----------



## MarshallDog

MarshallDog said:


> Thanks Bro. I have been reading some similar type Threads since I posted this and it seems that it might be two bad sets of tubes. I bought them at the same time as a matched quad. I guess if it was anything too serious, it would not go away and the amp might have other symptoms and sound like shit, right? I do have a brand new set on order and will rebias and watch the values over time.



Well, I got a new set of JJ E34L's. I checked the bias on the suspect pair and as expected, the bias on the one had drifted 6.4 mA high from where it was set so it must have been that tube dying a slow death. I popped in the other two new ones, biased it up and checked everything over. When I fired her up, I immediately took it out of standby and listened and to my delight, the hisses, static and the pops where gone for the most part. If I let it warm up a min or so it makes no noise at all, yes!!!

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions...


----------



## yladrd61

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> What can you tell me about these tubes .... any good ?
> 
> 
> Tung Sol 7581



I had a pair of nice GE 7581A's in my RI Tweed Bassman, they are a 35 watt tube but I biased them as a 30 watt tube. They are nice sounding tubes and have a lot of headroom. I wanted more grind out of this amp so I recently put in a set of JAN Phillips 6L6WGB, with a 5U4 Rectifier to pull down the B+ to around 445 ish. I am thinking of trying a 5Y3 to pull it down even more. Much better for what I was looking for. If you are looking for a modern 6L6 with lots of headroom that can take high B+ you should go with either the TAD 6L6GC tall bottle or Winged C 6L6GC if you can find them. Or look for some NOS GE 7581A's or Sylvania STR 387's


----------



## mickeydg5

yladrd61 said:


> I had a pair of nice GE 7581A's in my RI Tweed Bassman, they are a 35 watt tube but I biased them as a 30 watt tube. They are nice sounding tubes and have a lot of headroom. I wanted more grind out of this amp so I recently put in a set of JAN Phillips 6L6WGB, with a 5U4 Rectifier to pull down the B+ to around 445 ish. I am thinking of trying a 5Y3 to pull it down even more. Much better for what I was looking for. If you are looking for a modern 6L6 with lots of headroom that can take high B+ you should go with either the TAD 6L6GC tall bottle or Winged C 6L6GC if you can find them. Or look for some NOS GE 7581A's or Sylvania STR 387's


Do not try a 5Y3. It can only handle half the current of the specified 5AR4 or 5U4GB.


----------



## wakjob

If the amp in question has a dual bias adjustment, say on a 50 watt amp, each power tube having it's own bias pot...

Does it still matter if the tubes are a few mA apart?


----------



## mickeydg5

wakjob said:


> If the amp in question has a dual bias adjustment, say on a 50 watt amp, each power tube having it's own bias pot...
> 
> Does it still matter if the tubes are a few mA apart?


No, not at all.
Just wondering though, can you get them to match when adjusting?


----------



## johnfv

*Re: 6L6 cloudy at base - any concerns?*

Quick update on this, I sent the pics to AES (tubesandmore.com) where I got it from and they said they don't recall seeing one like this either. They offered to swap it for me so I'm sending it back. I couldn't have asked for better customer service. 



johnfv said:


> I decided to pick up a quad of TAD 6L6s during one of the black friday sales (I've noticed one of my '80s vintage GT labeled RCA 6L6 tubes is getting a bit microphonic). The TADs test fine in my VT1000 and sound fine in my Showman amp. However, one of them has some cloudiness around the base (pics attached). Anyone think this something to be concerned about? I don't recall seeing that "cloudy" look in a tube other than bad ones. Two pics, one with flash, one without. The flash is out of focus but you can really see the cloudy part.


----------



## yladrd61

mickeydg5 said:


> Do not try a 5Y3. It can only handle half the current of the specified 5AR4 or 5U4GB.



Actually it sounds really good just the way it is


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of the things I liked about living in Phoenix was driving over to AES in Tempe.


----------



## mickeydg5

yladrd61 said:


> Actually it sounds really good just the way it is


That is cool. Which are you liking, 5AR4 or 5U4GB?
The 5U4GB is the best option for dropping voltage/sagging in that amplifier.


----------



## yladrd61

mickeydg5 said:


> That is cool. Which are you liking, 5AR4 or 5U4GB?
> The 5U4GB is the best option for dropping voltage/sagging in that amplifier.




5U4GB with JAN Phillips 6L6WGB, Strong Blackburn I63 in V1, Strong 60s RCA Long Plate in V2, Strong Brimar CV4004 in V3. Biased around 60%. (Old Tone Stack, .022uf, Bass Cap, 56K slope resistor, instead of .1uf, 100K ) . also Removed (1) .022uf Preamp Cap was .044uf now .022uf ) Also replaced bottom 2 P10R speakers with P10Qs. SSS Stratocaster straight plug in 8))))


----------



## mickeydg5

That is a good combination of valves for a Bassman Reisuue. I prefer the P10Q to the R's too, unless the extra brightness is wanted.

Word to the wise though for others reading this stuff, a 12AX7 in V1 or a 5U4GB should not be used in the orignal early Bassmans.


----------



## yladrd61

mickeydg5 said:


> That is a good combination of valves for a Bassman Reisuue. I prefer the P10Q to the R's too, unless the extra brightness is wanted.
> 
> Word to the wise though for others reading this stuff, a 12AX7 in V1 or a 5U4GB should not be used in the orignial early Bassmans.



I also have a strong NOS Sylvania 12AY7 for the V1 spot. It is a beast with a good strong NOS 12AX7 in there !!! I was kind of worried about the higher current draw of the 5U4GB but it seems to be handling it and it brought my B+ down below 450.


----------



## mickeydg5

yladrd61 said:


> I also have a strong NOS Sylvania 12AY7 for the V1 spot. It is a beast with a good strong NOS 12AX7 in there !!! I was kind of worried about the higher current draw of the 5U4GB but it seems to be handling it and it brought my B+ down below 450.


The Bassman Reissue is modern and the power transformer is designed to handle more filament/heater current; not a problem.


----------



## RickyLee

mickeydg5 said:


> That is a good combination of valves for a Bassman Reisuue. I prefer the P10Q to the R's too, unless the extra brightness is wanted.
> 
> Word to the wise though for others reading this stuff, a 12AX7 in V1 or a 5U4GB should not be used in the orignal early Bassmans.



I tripped out on this for a few seconds, as I thought it related to my Blackface Bassman AB165.



You are talking about the 50's circuit Bassman, correct? That was designed with a 12AY7 in V1. Are you talking about the gain stage circuit or the actual current draw of the 12AX7 vs 12AY7?


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> I tripped out on this for a few seconds, as I thought it related to my Blackface Bassman AB165.
> 
> 
> 
> You are talking about the 50's circuit Bassman, correct? That was designed with a 12AY7 in V1. Are you talking about the gain stage circuit or the actual current draw of the 12AX7 vs 12AY7?


Correct. I was refering to the Tweed era designs.
But really I do not have actual specifications on any of those old power transformers. Does anyone?
Changing large tube types out like the 5881 or GZ34 could be problematic because of heater current ratings.
Changing the 12AY7 to a 12AX7 is just too much for that amplifier I believe. I think a nice 12AY7 sounds better. My opinion .


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Correct. I was refering to the Tweed era designs.
> But really I do not have actual specifications on any of those old power transformers. Does anyone?



I contacted a buddy (Ron Damiani) of mine that specializes in Tweed restoration and he forwarded my questions to Patrick of Mercury Magnetics.



> Back then there was no consistency and they were all over the map.
> 
> Just to give you an idea, they ranged from as low as 275 0 275 to 380 0 380 and everything in between.
> 
> This is why amps from the same week will sound different and be cleaner or break up earlier etc.
> 
> Our most popular by far is the FTBP-58 and FTBP-59 which were 380 0 380.
> 
> Typically the 6.3 was rated at 7-8 amps and the 5V at 4 amps.



Hope this helps, Mickey.


----------



## yladrd61

mickeydg5 said:


> Correct. I was refering to the Tweed era designs.
> But really I do not have actual specifications on any of those old power transformers. Does anyone?
> Changing large tube types out like the 5881 or GZ34 could be problematic because of heater current ratings.
> Changing the 12AY7 to a 12AX7 is just too much for that amplifier I believe. I think a nice 12AY7 sounds better. My opinion .



I like it with the 12AY7 for a more authentic tone, I also like the extra grind with a good 12AX7 in there


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> I contacted a buddy (Ron Damiani) of mine that specializes in Tweed restoration and he forwarded my questions to Patrick of Mercury Magnetics.
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this helps, Mickey.



My concern was with the increased current draw of the heaters of a 5U4GB, as compared to a GZ34 in regards to the stock RI power transformer.


----------



## mickeydg5

The reissue Bassman has no problem as it comes specified for the different tubes.

However an original Tweed Bassman has different specifications. The older parts may not or cannot handle the same current.

The origianl Tweed Bassman 8087/125P5 PT is about the same size as current production Hammond or ClassicTone replacements and I would expect the older to handle less as far as ratings are concerned. Not to mention I would rather not abuse a vintage original transformer.

I do not know how Ron and Patrick acquired those current numbers but I would associate those with a larger, heavier transformer.


----------



## RickyLee

I was going through my stash of parts and valves and crap like that. Man, I have way more stuff than I thought LOL.

I found a couple of odd looking KT88's. One I have labeled as "pill getter". It is an old Svetlana KT88. The other one has a very odd bottle shape . It has "Made in Russia 9722" on it so, is it basically just a late 90's Sovtek? 

Russian KT88:






Pill Getter Svetlana:
















Darn. My camera does not like up close shots!

@Marty: Have you seen one of these pill getter types? I would like to find another one so I could have a set to run in my amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I've seen them, but they are sort of rare. I don't think they are anything spectacular.

That's actually called a disc getter.


----------



## RickyLee

I increased the ISO settings on my camera and took two more of the Svetlana pill getter:


----------



## Riffraff

I just got some more of my favorite 6V6 types in the mail, RCA gray plates & Sylvania black plates........I think. 





The plates in this Westinghouse look identicle to the Slyvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Westinghouse is a Sylvania. Those are nice. I wish I had a nice V6 amp.


----------



## Riffraff

I've got four 6V6 amps which is why I like to grab these when I see something decent come along. This is my second SYL black plate set in my stash. I've got a Hammond labeled pair as well. Got the above cheap, supposedly strong testing pulls from the boat anchor boys. We'll see. I would test them but I've got the Devil's Tester (Eico 666) and the recommended settings come with a warning......."don't leave on long can ruin tubes". I guess good tube/bad tube is about all that's good for.  I've got to find some corrected tester settings for 6V6GT's since that is my most used tube.

Oh, one other thing. One of the RCA's is....a black plate? Same construction but much darker plates. Did the shading change over time on the gray plates? All of my black plate 6V6 tubes are smooth plate Sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those RCA's were made at different times with different coating formulas. The RCA top, left in your picture has completely different internals. It could even be a relabel. I'm not that knowledgeable about V6 tubes. Does the odd one have the part number in an octagonal box? Is there any numbers on the tube or base?

Here are some EIA codes. I'm only including the popular American companies.

DuMont 158
General Electric Co (USA) 188
Hytron (CBS-Hytron) 210
RCA (Radio Corp of America) 274
Raytheon 280
Sylvania (Hygrade Sylvania Corp) 312
Tung-Sol 322
Westinghouse 337
Zenith Radio Corp (CRT's) 343

Tube manufacturer's did a lot of inventory swapping. They would trade tubes they had in inventory for tubes that they did not produce. When the tube market got soft, this swapping became commonplace.


----------



## mickeydg5

That looks like a RCA 6V6. The early 6V6 tubes were black plate while later production went to gray plate from what I have noticed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That one on the left has rectangular top and bottom micas and a smaller plate structure, so if it is an RCA it is a completely different design.

I also noticed that the other two have the large, stop sign PN labeling and the one on the left does not appear to have it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I verified that the one on the left is an early 60's RCA.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes and the parts change up throught the years, like the mica.
I have some buried in boxes that I remember. Most have no markings left or had none to begin with. The other two appear to be 1968 CB and 1970 DD I believe.

I think the plates may be about the same size and shape but the picture provides optical illusion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well RCA started making metal case 6V6's in the early 40's, so I know they have changed the internals over the years. You never know who made a tube unless you are familiar with the guts and I'm not that informed about 6V6's. I know that I like Sylvania and RCA the best and also the early Tung-Sol's.


----------



## johnfv

I used to be a pretty hardcore EL34 guy, but I'm learning to appreciate the 6V6 more and more these days. The GR amp that I auditioned (Marshall style front end with 6V6 power) was damn impressive. I can't get enough of my little Prinzetone either...


----------



## mickeydg5

I have always heard good things about 6V6 amplifiers. Intriguing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy makes some killer V6 amps. I would love to try the Tweed and the Stereo models.

swart amplifier co ~ Amplifiers


----------



## rockgod212

i figured i would ask this question here in the power tube section.

i just switched from el34's to tungsol 6550's in my metro 1959/2203 clone, im running 488 on the plates and biased to 70% which is 60mA. i know thats on the high side and my normal target would be between 50mA- 60mA. 

but ive been reading that lots of people bias their 6550's like el34's or 6l6's at 25 watts or even at 35 watts tube rating, why is this? am i missing something here? i thought you were to bias per watt rating of the tube itself and your plate voltage. im a bit confused at this.

am i good with my bias? the amp sounds good though, although i can back the bias down a bit if im too high.


----------



## Riffraff

mickeydg5 said:


> I have always heard good things about 6V6 amplifiers. Intriguing.



Some aren't half bad. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYIqtnMru1g]Silvertone 1482 - Reamped through MiniMass.wmv - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Micky

I love both of mine... Haze 15 and '77 SF Princeton Reverb.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockgod212 said:


> i thought you were to bias per watt rating of the tube itself and your plate voltage. im a bit confused at this.
> 
> am i good with my bias? the amp sounds good though, although i can back the bias down a bit if im too high.



While some may disagree with me, most would agree when I say that you bias the 6550's as a 25 watt tube. This is because you have a 100 watt power supply. Biasing the 6550's as a 35 watt tube can lead to the tube running hot and putting a strain on the power transformer.

17.5 divided by 488 equals 36mA per tube, or 72mA per pair. (You can bump this up a little because of the screen dissipation. I wouldn't go higher than 74mA.)

How did you come up with 60mA? Is that per pair?


----------



## Riffraff

Micky said:


> I love both of mine... Haze 15 and '77 SF Princeton Reverb.



And then there's the Tweaker 15.....although mine hasn't seen a 6V6GT set since I dropped the 6P3S tubes in it. I figure I'll be back to them eventually tough. I like how you can go from glassy sparkle to raw rock grind with a 6V6. The other good thing is they are plentiful so even nice vintage versions don't break the bank. It's a good tube for rolling on the cheap.


----------



## rockgod212

ok, i will have to re-bias then, i got that 60mA from an online bias calculator. and thats one tube. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> While some may disagree with me, most would agree when I say that you bias the 6550's as a 25 watt tube. This is because you have a 100 watt power supply. Biasing the 6550's as a 35 watt tube can lead to the tube running hot and putting a strain on the power transformer.
> 
> 17.5 divided by 488 equals 36mA per tube, or 72mA per pair. (You can bump this up a little because of the screen dissipation. I wouldn't go higher than 74mA.)
> 
> How did you come up with 60mA? Is that per pair?


----------



## EndGame00

I pulled the trigger for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH via thetubestore.... Has anyone played through this? Any pros and cons?


----------



## solarburn

EndGame00 said:


> I pulled the trigger for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH via thetubestore.... Has anyone played through this? Any pros and cons?



They sound and feel great. beastly and articulate.

Reliability is an issue. I've had drifting issues and one blew in my JMP with minimal hours on them...unfortunately. I really like them otherwise.


----------



## Steve Naples

EndGame00 said:


> I pulled the trigger for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH via thetubestore.... Has anyone played through this? Any pros and cons?



I just ordered a matched pair from valve queen.

I'm interested in hearing them in my 4212.


----------



## Riffraff

It was tube changing day today. I pulled out my tube bin & tester early this morning and went through a big pile of 6V6 tubes to find some good ones. I needed a new pair for one of my 1482's and figured why not sort out the so so tubes and try to match up some nice strong pairs. I ended up with 3 pairs of Sylvania black plates, a pair RCA gray plates (which I put in the 1482) and a RCA GTA gray plate that pinned the needle. I put that one in my SFVC with an ANOS '48 GE 5Y3GT rectifier and it sounds amazing. I love RCA gray plate 6V6GTAs. They sound so good when you get them cooking.





I've swapped tubes in that before hoping to wake it up and never really had great results. I actually had that '60s RCA black plat GT in there from the earlier pic and it was okay but nothing special even though it tested well. I figured it might be time to open it up and start poking around. It sometimes has the popcorn thing so I know it could use a socket cleaning and retensioning. The amp really came alive with the RCA GTA gray plate in it. I played through it for quite a while through an alnico loaded 212 cab. I put a Sylvania black plate set in my T15 and fired it up for a test drive. I've been running 6P3S tubes in it for about 8 months now and expected to have to do some knob twisting to get it right. It had a spikey, fizzy tone I just couln't get rid of with those tubes in it. I immediately put the 6P3S set back in and returned to great tone. Maybe those black plates were just too hifi for me in the Tweaker?  Come to think of it that might have been what I had in the Vibro Champ that I didn't like prior to changing it. I guess I'm sticking with the Russian glass in the Tweaker. They just sound great in that amp. Last but not least I pulled the Sylvania 6L6GA power tubes in my Masco and replaced them with nice pair of ANOS RCA 6L6GB black plates. It sounds really, really nice with those tubes. That's it for tube changing day. Lots of RCA in the power section of my amps with 6V6GTA gray plates in both 1482's and my Vibro Champ and Black plate 6L6GB's in the Masco. I dig 'em.


----------



## johnfv

EndGame00 said:


> I pulled the trigger for a pair of Electro-Harmonix 6CA7EH via thetubestore.... Has anyone played through this? Any pros and cons?


I'm largely repeating comments from the preamp thread here but I like them, currently have a pair in my Hiwatt 50. Like an EL34 with a hint of 6L6 character: a little less middy, tighter low end and crisp top end; can be pushed a little harder before breakup. The TAD EL34 is my current fav CP tube but the 6CA7EH is definitely in the running. The only "criticism" I can make is perhaps not the best if you want to tame a bright amp (also true of the TADs).


----------



## damienbeale

RickyLee said:


> I increased the ISO settings on my camera and took two more of the Svetlana pill getter:



On most cameras there is a button with a little picture of a flower next to it. This is Macro mode for close focus shots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A little blurry, aren't they?


----------



## Georgiatec

Is it a pedal off a bike?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tony-I won these NOS Sylvania 6L6GC's for $50 on EBAY. I am going to put them into my Peavey Classic VTX.


----------



## Steve Naples

Has anyone tried the Chinese Shuguang Treasure tubes yet? I just wonder if they are worth the money.


----------



## mickeydg5

No one dives into those at the going prices.
Audiophiles maybe ???.


----------



## Steve Naples

I was wondering, they are pretty darn expensive. I got some EH 6CA7s on order for that thorn in my side 4212, lol. It gets really muddy when Master is above 4 and clean or boost volume about 5. Just too much mush. I have old Svetlana's in it now, no clue how old or how many hours on them.


----------



## mickeydg5

Steve Naples said:


> I was wondering, they are pretty darn expensive. I got some EH 6CA7s on order for that thorn in my side 4212, lol. It gets really muddy when Master is above 4 and clean or boost volume about 5. Just too much mush. I have old Svetlana's in it now, no clue how old or how many hours on them.


Old tubes could do that. Trying new tubes might help. You can also experiment with raising or lowering the bias a little to see how the power tubes, amplifier and speakers react at ithose higher volumes.

What speakers are in the combo?
What are the settings of the controls on your ampifier at those volumes?


----------



## Steve Naples

That's what I was thinking. I may try adjusting the bias a bit and see.
I have G12-65s in it, nice speakers, but I do hear some crackling even on the clean channel, so wondering if I might have a bad cone. I don't see anything, but I didn't remove them.
Presence 12 o'clock, master at 5.
Normal channel all at 12 o'clock, volume at 4
Boost channel all at 12 o'clock, gain at 6, volume at 5.


----------



## Steve Naples

I just looked at my notes, I am running at 36mA now, I don't think hotter would be better with it mushing up at 36mA this is at 460vdc Plate voltage.
I could drop it to 34mA, but I remember that it lacked any real depth, was pretty sterile sounding, took a lot to get crunch too.


----------



## Steve Naples

I got the 6CA7s and put them in at 37mA. Sounds good there, they sounded awesome at 40mA though, I just figured that was a bit hot?


----------



## mickeydg5

Steve Naples said:


> I got the 6CA7s and put them in at 37mA. Sounds good there, they sounded awesome at 40mA though, I just figured that was a bit hot?


40mA is ok at about 460VDC on the plates if that is what you like.
Turn it up and play to see if it makes a difference in sound, being 40mA versus 37mA at idle bias.

So the muddy and mush are gone?


----------



## Steve Naples

Yes, they did go away, I brought it back down to 35mA. It still sounds good, just not as much headroom. I may leave this way and turn it up later, if I feel like taking the amp apart again. 
Also the noise is all gone, now it is as quiet as my new DSL, well almost. But if I have the reverb on just a hair it is noisy again. Reverb tank is 4DB3C1D


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tony-I won these NOS Sylvania 6L6GC's for $50 on EBAY. I am going to put them into my Peavey Classic VTX.



I had a pair of those. They sounded really good! I had my Fender Super loaded with all Sylvanias at one time; a 5751, 12AX7's and those really tall 6L6GC's. It sounded absolutely killer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hadn't played the VTX in years as it had no power tubes. I put the tubes in and man are the pots in need of a good cleaning. I was able to dial in a pretty decent tone, not Marshall tube amp good, but 1980 Peavey Hybrid amp good. 

Now I am trying to find a four button/5 Pin DIN footswitch as the one that I have is junk.

MarshallGibson located one for me and I contacted the seller to see if he still has it. Otherwise I will have to keep checking on EBAY. No way am I going to shell out $100 for an aftermarket footswitch. The amp is only worth $150 (on a good day).


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll look around here. This is Peavey country. There's a store one town over that has a VTX. They even have an old Classic and a Deuce. If they had a tube preamp I'd snag one.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I just found a pair of Sylvania STR387's, the big tall bottle 6L6GC's that Peavey used in the 70's. I haven't tested them yet but those last forever. If you want to try them in your Peavey shoot me a


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are actually quite a few EBAY listings for 387's. Some of the sellers act like they are WE 300B's. I wasn't even interested in spending big bucks for 6L6's to put in a $200 amp. Those NOS Sylvania's I got were a matched set and they sound good. $50 bucks was a good deal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Are you looking to sell the 387's?


----------



## EndGame00

Steve Naples said:


> I got the 6CA7s and put them in at 37mA. Sounds good there, they sounded awesome at 40mA though, I just figured that was a bit hot?



I thought the EH 6CA7's got some chunk on the bottom end, slightly smoother on the upper highs compare to EL34's, not quite ear-piercing when the master volume is set to 4 and above... But it took my ears some time to adjust to it.... I notice that I hear the tubes "ping" when I power up the amp... Is that normal? I don't hear that on the other power tubes I have.

I roll with different preamp tubes... For me the 6CA7's sounds best when paired up with a Preferred Series 7025 in V1 and a cheap shuguang 12ax7A in V2.


----------



## Steve Naples

I think they have a nice chunk too, very nice to hear that. Yes, the top end smooths out nicely. I never noticed the ping on these. I used them in a 1986 4212 so, it sure does sound good.
I have a NOS Ken-Rad GE 12ax7 in V1, and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. 
I finally found the right set all the way around on this amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

A Raytheon black plate should come in V2 of every Marshall. It's the perfect tube in that spot - it makes any V1 tube sound better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it does. I've sold a boatload of them. I just wonder when they will run out?

They also sound good in the V1 slot as well.

Their nickname is the "American Telefunken."


----------



## moesley

I have question: I have a yjm that I want to load with 5881 tubes, is this possible?

I found these www.thetubestore.com - Tung-Sol 5881 Audio Tubes but there is a warning that they run 400Vdc would that be a problem?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the YJM has higher plate voltage, probably around 470 volts on the plates so the Tung-Sol 5881's wouldn't last in your amp.

Also, you can't just put 5881's/6L6GC's in an EL34 amp without making some minor component changes.

If you want a more glassy 5881 sound, try the EH 6CA7's. They sound great.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...Now I am trying to find a four button/5 Pin DIN footswitch as the one that I have is junk...


Marty, seems like building one (or repairing one) should be easy? I see schematics listed and it looks like there are no LEDs, just switches. I'd just make sure I had a good DIN plug and cable and start testing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had already though about that and my concern was that if I bought an new 5 wire Din cable and wire it up, then one or more of the button switches would be/or go bad.

I'm not in a big hurry. The Peavey amp has set for a while. I just got tubes for it and I need to pull the chassis and clean the pots. 

I think I will just keep looking on eBay and if I don't find one in the next few months, I'll rebuild the one I have (and boy does it look nasty).


----------



## MartyStrat54

What do you guys think of these? Mint 6L6WGB/5881 matched quad. These will be for sale. Once I get them, I will list them in the classifieds. These would make a killer set for any Marshall that uses 5881's and these will last damn near forever.


----------



## Steve Naples

Nice, wish I had an amp that could use those.


----------



## mickeydg5

moesley said:


> I have question: I have a yjm that I want to load with 5881 tubes, is this possible?
> 
> I found these www.thetubestore.com - Tung-Sol 5881 Audio Tubes but there is a warning that they run 400Vdc would that be a problem?


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the YJM has higher plate voltage, probably around 470 volts on the plates so the Tung-Sol 5881's wouldn't last in your amp.
> 
> Also, you can't just put 5881's/6L6GC's in an EL34 amp without making some minor component changes.
> 
> If you want a more glassy 5881 sound, try the EH 6CA7's. They sound great.


Hi Moesley
You can use those NOS 6L6WGB tubes Marty has which will work very well in that amplifier and get you darn close to the vintage TS 5881 sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Can he do a direct swap, Mickey? I thought that the screen and bias resistors need to be changed.

And yes these NOS 5881's will handle higher plate voltage. My response was directed at the Tung-Sol 5881 RI's that are only rated at 400V on the plates ( and the screens are probably much lower than that).

Or does the YJM have a real wide bias range? Doesn't it have individual bias pots?


----------



## mickeydg5

Both the YJM and AFD will allow 5881 to drop in and operate. They are designed to adjust bias/screen/plate operations through the EPA. The screen resistors are set with physical 1k 5W but the EPA controls the voltage present at the screens.
All that needs to be done is adjust the BIAS TRIM in the 30mA area for 5881 tubes. Then run the AUTO-BIAS and its done.


----------



## moesley

mickeydg5 said:


> Both the YJM and AFD will allow 5881 to drop in and operate. They are designed to adjust bias/screen/plate operations through the EPA. The screen resistors are set with physical 1k 5W but the EPA controls the voltage present at the screens.
> All that needs to be done is adjust the BIAS TRIM in the 30mA area for 5881 tubes. Then run the AUTO-BIAS and its done.



So it is possible to put those ts in there, only have to adjust that yellow thingy on the back? 

Martystrat what will be your asking price for the 6L6WGB/5881 tubes and shipping cost to belgium?


----------



## mickeydg5

moesley said:


> So it is possible to put those ts in there, only have to adjust that yellow thingy on the back?
> 
> Martystrat what will be your asking price for the 6L6WGB/5881 tubes and shipping cost to belgium?


 
The reason that a warning comes with the current TS 5881 is that it may not be built exactly like the NOS or the current 6L6GC variants. Basically if you use the current TS 5881 with 470VDC on the plates and something goes wrong you are left holding the bag, voided warranty.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know we were talking about these on another thread but thought it would be more appropraite here.

Notice anything funny? This is in Ebay right now.


----------



## Steve Naples

I didn't see those. I was just looking.
Now I know why, I was looking for a quad.


----------



## RiverRatt

But isn't a true 5881/6L6WGB only rated for 360v to 400v on the plates? The original Tung-Sol 5881 tubes were sometimes labeled as 6L6WGB's. I've always heard that 5881's are rated a lot lower than what they can handle but wouldn't 470v with a solid-state rectifier be asking a lot from that spec?


----------



## mickeydg5

Design maximum is 400V on plates. The 6L6WGB and 5881 are interchangeable substitutes. They are not identical. The 6L6WGB has higher dissipation ratings but the 5881 has a higher screen voltage rating.

There were quit a few amplifiers at 450V plus using 5881 tubes with solid state as well as 5AR4/GZ34 rectification.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I know we were talking about these on another thread but thought it would be more appropraite here.
> 
> Notice anything funny? This is in Ebay right now.





Them East Germans really get around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

moesley said:


> So it is possible to put those ts in there, only have to adjust that yellow thingy on the back?
> 
> Martystrat what will be your asking price for the 6L6WGB/5881 tubes and shipping cost to belgium?



PM sent.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Design maximum is 400V on plates. The 6L6WGB and 5881 are interchangeable substitutes. They are not identical. The 6L6WGB has higher dissipation ratings but the 5881 has a higher screen voltage rating.
> 
> There were quit a few amplifiers at 450V plus using 5881 tubes with solid state as well as 5AR4/GZ34 rectification.



I know that the old Bassman ran 5881's hot but I thought the sag with the tube rectifier let them run hotter. Are the reissue WGB's and 5881's true to their namesake or are they all 6L6GC's?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I know that the old Bassman ran 5881's hot but I thought the sag with the tube rectifier let them run hotter. Are the reissue WGB's and 5881's true to their namesake or are they all 6L6GC's?


The Bassman was one and the voltage drop on the 5F6A GZ34 was in the area of 10 to 15 volts.
There were others at around the same time with solid state rectification having 5 to 10% higher B+.

I cannot say much about the new TS 5881 except that it is suppossedly designed to Tung-Sol's specifications. Their construction is not like 6L6GC and more like the original TS 5881.

The specifications on data sheets are for a set of characteristics indicating ratings based on typical operation for satisfactory performance under standardized guidelines. As with any set of specific variables, if one characteristic is changed others can be altered in order to provide balance and remain within limits. So if anyone grasp that then they will understand that 400V is not a hard number for everything.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> The specifications on data sheets are for a set of characteristics indicating ratings based on typical operation for satisfactory performance under standardized guidelines. As with any set of specific variables, if one characteristic is changed others can be altered in order to provide balance and remain within limits. So if anyone grasp that then they will understand that 400V is not a hard number for everything.



That's why I ask. I want to learn the why behind the how 

So how do you know how far you can push the limits?


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...So how do you know how far you can push the limits?


Keep an eye out for smoke and flames? I know that's been the rule with my 1959T


----------



## mickeydg5

Johnfv gets it, ha ha. Well something like that.
The tube manufacturers wanted the designers and users to be safe and also want to keep catastrophy down as well as keep their name polished.
As with all electronic components in this type of business the key charactersitics to hold are current capability and power dissipation. Too high a voltage can lead to some problems in tubes as with anything else especially where confinement and vicinity are a premium, like arcing between elements.

I have seen just under 500 VDC, you know the 470 and 480 plus numbers, on 6L6WGB and they did not miss a beat but were run within normal operation and biased in the high 20mA's.
Now again with respect to operation, that would be at normal volume levels and not maxed out for an extended amount of time. I cannot tell you if that any of these condition cuts tube life but I witnessed no momentary concerns, no red plating and no heat issues.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Keep an eye out for smoke and flames? I know that's been the rule with my 1959T



Well yeah, but I'd like to avoid smoke and flames altogether if I can! 

I'm paranoid enough with new tubes as it is. I watch them for weeks and I have been known to keep a multimeter/bias probe on them the whole time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I know we were talking about these on another thread but thought it would be more appropraite here.
> 
> Notice anything funny? This is in Ebay right now.



Another EBAY goodie. Mullard 6CA7's.  He calls them Mullard EL34 "types."

This is his listing picture. His test scores on the tubes do not match his scores in his listing. The scores suggest they are too far apart to be a matched pair.






If you go down to the bottom of the listing you will find this picture.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## mickeydg5

I like that. An American made SYL 6CA7 labeled for Mullard with the BVA logo.

National or Richardson is also American with a German RFT EL34 marked Made In England. That is funny.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The EBAY seller stated that the tubes were made in England. It just goes to show how many uninformed sellers there are and sadly some uninformed person will buy them.

The Sylvania OO getter 6CA7's are nice tubes. They are worth about $45 -$55 each if they are a matched pair.

I wish there was a book denoting all the funny stuff that went on in the tube industry when the market was collapsing. All the relabeling going on and miss marking the country of origin. 

The tube industry predicted a sharp drop in tube sales with the introduction of solid state devices, but that's not what happened. The drop was very slow and the demand for tubes was still there. This caused a lot of scrambling.

My favorite mislabeling is Ei marked preamp tubes that say made in Gt. Britain. These were sold in the USA under the RCA brand. When this was occurring Yugoslavia was a Soviet controlled country and the Vietnam war was still going on, followed by the Cold War. Wouldn't the US consumer be shocked to find they were buying Soviet made tubes for their equipment? I think so.


----------



## johnfv

I enjoyed seeing the Mullard labeled 6CA7, thanks for posting.


----------



## Riffraff

This isn't really the place for this but......

I've got a new matched pair of JJ EL34's I took in trade for some preamp tubes last year that I would like to trade for a good ECC83/12AX7.......looking for vintage tubes only, around the same value (these are $30 pair). I will throw in (1) NIB JJ ECC803S gold pin to sweeten the pot (+$24 ea) if you have a I61 Blackburn Mullard or something else something good to trade and need a little more to make the trade work for you ($54 total value....more than original Mullards sell for ). I got these from a guy on the LP forum that bought them during a tube rolling frenzy with his Tweaker 15. He bought them to try while we were writing back and forth discussing tube swaps so I know they only have a few hours on them because he traded them with me about 2 weeks after getting them for a bunch of 5751 tubes. I thought I might try these in my T15 but I never got around to it because I've been very satisfied with my 6P3S set. I don't have any EL34 powered amps anymore so these are really of no use to me and are just taking up space in my already overstuffed tube bin. Shoot me a PM if interested. This is the Marshall page after all, someone must have a need for a fresh set of EL34 tubes.









*Whacha got?*


----------



## wakjob

Are these real STR-387's or just Ruby repros?

peavey str387 | eBay

I need to replace my Peavey Super 6's.... made in the USA.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your link isn't working wakjob.


----------



## Riffraff

Tubes taken.

Thanks!


----------



## RickyLee

Anyone have any experience with the New Sensor Tung Sol 7581? Wondering also if it would be rated close to 35W?


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> Anyone have any experience with the New Sensor Tung Sol 7581? Wondering also if it would be rated close to 35W?


You can go to the Tung-Sol website to see the current tubes aalong with their specification sheets.

The New Sensor TS 7581 is modeled after the original 7581 from Tung-Sol. It has 30W plate and 5W screen.


----------



## RickyLee

mickeydg5 said:


> You can go to the Tung-Sol website to see the current tubes aalong with their specification sheets.
> 
> The New Sensor TS 7581 is modeled after the original 7581 from Tung-Sol. It has 30W plate and 5W screen.



That is awesome that they are providing info and stats on their new line of valves now. 

I will check it out . . . .


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have to wonder sometimes about all these "new" offerings using the great nomenclature from the past.

For example, some of the CP 7025's were about the noisiest tubes I've ever heard.

There are a bunch of EL34's all claiming to be clones of Xf2 Mullards. How close are they? Looking like it is one thing, but sounding like it is another.

I've seen the TS 7581 and I immediately wondered if it is all that it is claimed to be. I've always looked at the original NOS 7581 as a competitor to the RCA 7027A. I would almost bet that they sound similar. IMO, probably too high of headroom and too clean and glassy for my tastes, but either tube would probably rock if you are into loud Fender clean tones.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, I am too skeptical too make a purchase on these new 7581's. Plus, their screen rating is only 450V.

I have a few sets of the old GE 7581 and another make I can't recall right now stashed away. And those valves did give a bigger sound stage for sure. Not a valve to stick in an already loud amp you are trying to tame volume on.


EDIT: But that new Tung Sol web site sure was Purdy . . . .


----------



## MartyStrat54

Has anyone had any problems with the scottbecker.net website? I haven't been able to access his vast tube data library for over two weeks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ricky, the NOS 7581A was rated at 450V on the plates in triode mode and 500V plates and 450V screens in pentode. Basically the same as a 6L6GC and the RCA Tube Manual states that the 7581 characteristics are the same as a 6L6GC. 

In comparison, the 7027A was rated at 600V on the plates and 500V on the screens.

You also have to consider that these tubes were designed for hifi amps. They are high headroom tubes. This means they might not be what you would want in a guitar amp unless you wanted a real clean tone to be used with a stomp box for your distortion. That would probably sound okay.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Has anyone had any problems with the scottbecker.net website? I haven't been able to access his vast tube data library for over two weeks.


Did it mirror this site?

electron Tube Data sheets - Search


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was it, Frank's Tube Data. I guess that scott becker mirror is a bad link now. I made a new bookmark for the good link. I really like that website. Data sheets galore.


----------



## mickeydg5

It has always been my go to site.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember posting it on the Preamp Tube thread a long time ago. Well apparently I didn't bookmark it. Then a few years later I stumbled upon it and assumed I had found a new tube site. I posted it on the Preamp Tube thread all happy to provide some info and you replied, "I've used it for years...yawn."


----------



## mickeydg5

I did not yawn! Hee, hee.


----------



## mickeydg5

Read here about usage of Orange VT1000 and ask questions to the OP if needed.

A case finally surfaced here. It is what I expected.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/66701-jcm2000-dsl-troubleshooting.html


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good to know. I don't know if you recall the big post I made giving my impressions of the VT1000. One of my biggest concerns was the very low voltage used to test tubes. IIRC, one of the tests did have fairly high voltage, but the current was very low. Well below the actual real world operation of the tube.

That's why I wish I had some modern tester like a Maxi-Matcher. It tests at 400V. I think my B and K has a max of 275V.

For the money an Orange costs, I would rather get a nice Hickok.


----------



## mickeydg5

There is a real nice Precise III on ebay. It is a nice Gm tester for the price. Of course they all need attention or at least checking. I had thought about it but not now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Hickok I was following went for almost $600.


----------



## mickeydg5

There is another 752A at $560 right now. That seems a normal price range although some may go in the upper three hundred range once in a while.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think it's the same seller. He had a 752 and a 752A listed. The 752 was about the nicest one I've seen.

Based on the fact that I don't know how much longer I am going to be able to sell tubes, spending $600 on another tester doesn't seem very logical to me.

I felt this way two years ago as the prices went up and then suddenly they fell to a reasonable level. Well for the past six months the prices have gotten ridiculous and there are less large lots for sell. I'd say I am seeing 50 to 60 percent less large lots for sell on EBAY.

My wholesalers have dried up. I61 and I63 Mullards are scarce and priced as high as Valvo's.

Maybe the end is finally getting here.


----------



## chee16

What would be peoples opinions on 6ca7 vs el34 (winged C specifically) in my tsl602?
I like my tone right now but am always looking to try something new, but have read that power tubes make a lot less of a difference then preamps. I play blues/rock, don't use a lot of gain, vintage voiced single coils, and my preamps are I63 mullard, raytheon BP, GE 12ax7, GE 12ax7a (tests high and slightly unbalanced).

Any opinions would be great. Thank you!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well power tubes in a DSL/TSL/JVM do not have that great of bearing on the overall tone of the amp. These amps get most of the tone from the preamp section.

I like the EH6CA7 over the JJ. The EH6CA7 has a tone that leans more towards a 6L6GC. Bigger bottom and more of a sparkly high end compared to most EL34's. 

I run the EH's in two amps, including my TSL122. That amp roars. Of course the Eminence Man O Wars are responsible for some of that. I get a really tight bottom end with that amp considering it is an open back combo. 

The EH's are like $25 each so it's not that expensive of an experiment.


----------



## chee16

So you think think with my Tonespotter and Black Powder combo it should sound nice? I trust your judgement since you not only the same amp and speakers, but have tried a lot of different stuff with it.

I was thinking the same thing about the EH6ca7's, for $22.95 each why not. My local shop essentially charges the same price as the tube store but no shipping cost so I'm thinking that will be my next experiement.

I did also look at the kt77, but there is only the one choice (I don't count the Genalex cuz of the price point).


----------



## MartyStrat54

My best advice is to spend the $50 and give the 6CA7's a shot.

I stay away from CP KT tubes, because they really aren't made like the originals. A real pair of KT66's sound completely different than the CP's. 

I feel that the current KT77's lean more towards an EL34 tone and the EH6CA7 leans towards a 6L6GC tone.


----------



## chee16

Nice, thank you Marty, that was exactly what I was looking for. I was probably going to try them anyways but I like to ask questions none the less.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just played my 602 last night. I sucked, but I try to fire up my amps to keep them happy.


----------



## RickyLee

OK Fellas. What is the best sounding current production KT66 these days? I was looking at the Gold Lion KT66 but they seemed a bit pricey at $150 a quad. And then they are made in Russia.

I have a set of Valve Art and JJ that I might dig out and AB in this Fender Prince Bassman project later on. But I only have pairs of those and need a quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Shuguang's are pretty good and so are the TAD's, but KT66's are all pricey.


----------



## mickeydg5

I thought exactly the same thing.

Check out threads on KT66 or maybe Vintage Modern and JTM45 type amplifiers too.


----------



## wakjob

Just tried a pair of JJ 6L6GC's from MojoTone for my '76 Bassman MV.

They started off ok @ 43.3mV / 44.0mV then started to creep up over 50.0mV. 
I couldn't get them down, so I changed the 15k resistor to a 22k and all was well...
for a few minutes. 

Then up, up, and up it went again very slowly over the period of a half an hour or so.
Then they went lopsided to 45.7mV / 61.0mV*!!! 

The only thing I changed other than the resistor was the new bias caps.
I used 100uF/100v instead of the stock 80uF.


----------



## mickeydg5

Do the old set or another set exibit the same drift?
If so then something is awry in the bias supply.


----------



## wakjob

I received the amp in very poor condition. The guy said he was playing it.

I can't see how, the 470 ohm screen resistor was completely blown apart
on one tube socket, which also had a broken tube. It did have a nice set of
STR-387's. 

I never even plugged it in or tried playing through it just from the way it looked. But hey, it was free.

I just did a complete recap of all the electro's. Filtering, bypass, and bias.
And new grid & screen resistors that all had matching values for proper balance.

I also changed the bias balance circuit to a normal bias adjustment. But,
this is a common mod to do... And everything was kosher for 
awhile, then the rise in bias started happening. 

Other than that, just a new 18/3 power cord. Surprisingly, this year amp was wired correctly/safely.


----------



## mickeydg5

Wakjob
If you did all that and voltages in the amplifier are appropriate then I would suspect the power tubes. BUT.

One big problem though. You say it is a 1976 Bassman but you did not state which. There are quite a few. And you have set idle bias way too high it seems which can cause runaway with indications of higher drifting biases.

Which amplifier exactly?
The bias of any should have the control grids somewhere between -48 and -58 volts average. Hopefully that would equate to an idle bias in the lower 30 milliamps.


----------



## wakjob

It's a rare 50 watt Bassman Master Volume. 
They were only made for about an year and a half '75-'76-ish.

It's an odd ball amp. 
And you have to use the Bassman TEN 70 and Bassman 70 schematics combine to get a hold of what's going on.

Two things I'm not too sure about is whether or not I still need that second bias cap going off to ground?

And I'm suspect of that rear lug on the bias pot. All vintage AB165 schems. ect... show the feed going to the other outside lug that's unused ATM.


----------



## wakjob

Plate Voltage is 443. And I did the math for 30 watt dissipation using 6L6GC's.

I came up with 47.4mV @ 70% ? I was trying to keep it a 43-44mV, but just kept going up on me.


----------



## wakjob

Upon further research, I _DO_ have to move the feed to that other outside lug.

I thought they were common somehow... my bad.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am not liking the bias feed coming off of the wiper of that center tap potentiometer. That is not a good idea. Make sure that on that potentiometer the center lug is wiper to the other two lugs and that the back tab is actually the center tap. Also just to be sure does that potentiometer case measure 0 ohms to chassis ground (make sure it is not isolated)?

What is the negative voltage being feed to the control grid circuits?

Being that it is a single feed it may be the power tubes but it needs to be made sure that the bias circuit is not creating the flucuations.


----------



## RickyLee

Need some advice.

What would be the best valve for reliability in an amp running about 550V plate and screens?

And for that valve, what would be my screen resistor specs, bias feed values ect?

I was thinking I could try KT77 or KT88. This is my 50W Mitchell DeLuxe. I have a pair of GT 6L6C(HP) valves in there but I am thinking they are taking a huge beating at those voltages.


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> Need some advice.
> 
> What would be the best valve for reliability in an amp running about 550V plate and screens?
> 
> And for that valve, what would be my screen resistor specs, bias feed values ect?
> 
> I was thinking I could try KT77 or KT88. This is my 50W Mitchell DeLuxe. I have a pair of GT 6L6C(HP) valves in there but I am thinking they are taking a huge beating at those voltages.



I made a mistake. This amp runs at 511V plate and screen. That is a loaded voltage. I was thinking of my other Mitchell that runs over 550V.

I am remembering this amp has 470R screen resistors. So I should not throw a set of KT77 in there? Am I right in remembering KT77 need 1K screen resistors?


----------



## wakjob

mickeydg5 said:


> I am not liking the bias feed coming off of the wiper of that center tap potentiometer. That is not a good idea. Make sure that on that potentiometer the center lug is wiper to the other two lugs and that the back tab is actually the center tap. Also just to be sure does that potentiometer case measure 0 ohms to chassis ground (make sure it is not isolated)?
> 
> What is the negative voltage being feed to the control grid circuits?
> 
> Being that it is a single feed it may be the power tubes but it needs to be made sure that the bias circuit is not creating the flucuations.



OK! I realized that moving the feed off of the 'Tapped' lug and onto the right side of the pot is what was needed. 

0 ohms pot to chassis... check
Neg. vdc -49... check

I changed the resistor again. Went up to the common 27k for this mod. 
Now it seems everything is working properly so far.

I left the amp on for an hour last night and the bias rise was about 5mV over the course of 15 min or so and held steady.

I'm doing the same thing this morning before I go to work. So far everything is good and holding steady bias.


----------



## wakjob

Sugar!

Again, at around the 1 hr. mark they go severely lopsided.


----------



## damienbeale

You may just have a board that is becoming conductive at temperature. Is it the waxed type?


----------



## mickeydg5

Wakjob

Like Damien is pointing out, you need to check everything.
Take three VDC measurements at control grid pin #5 as well as bias measurement at the time for each power tube.
1. at turn on
2. at 15 to 20 minutes, when it drifts up
3. after it drifts more and goes lopsided

This can help determine what is happening here.


----------



## damienbeale

Also, dig your positive probe into the board itself around and near the eyelets to see if you can measure voltage on the board anywhere.

Now I can see it clearly on a big screen, I have a hunch this may be a big part of the problem. A little bit of heat bringing the moisture out, and the fun and games begin.


----------



## wakjob

I think I found the problem.

Only one half of the heaters are working. It's dead right off the jewel lamp on one side.

Crapola, I didn't want to get into new iron. I was hoping to just give this thing a tuneup, 
and send it down the road. 

As it stands, I'm $200 into it. Now a transformer?


----------



## wakjob

Classic Tone... $70.00. Not bad.

Don't want to pollute the Power Tube thread anymore with this.

Thanks guys!!!


----------



## mickeydg5

wakjob said:


> Classic Tone... $70.00. Not bad.
> 
> Don't want to pollute the Power Tube thread anymore with this.
> 
> Thanks guys!!!


Well after you get things back up and testing let us know how it turned out.
If problems are still there start a new thread in the WORKBENCH.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I just sold some used RCA 7027A's that tested like new and I got $22 for a matched pair. I had some singles with a $10 starting price and they didn't sell. I guess if they are NIB the price goes way up.






Matched Quad of RCA 7027A Tubes U s A | eBay

Now this is just utterly ridiculous.






Five 5 RARE RCA 6L6GC Black Plate NOS NIB Holy Grail Tubes Matched 1969 Mint | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

That is a little ridiculous.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wouldn't it be cool Mickey if EBAY allowed potential buyers to leave real time messages to the seller on their listing page? Oh lord, I would be commenting all day long.


----------



## mickeydg5

Now that would cause war.

Or flaming heads.








But they know better than to let that run rampant.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well 5 minutes ago it sounded like a good idea.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know what you meant.

Think of anyone you had given comment to in the "Question and Answer" box and how many took it in a negative manner.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey, most of my questions are never posted by the seller. It would ruin their auction.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is exactly what I am talking about. Hee, hee. Most of the time the seller does not want to hear it, questioning you while saying go fly a kite. 

But sometimes you just have to do it. 

Every once in a while you will get a thank you for the alert.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I did get that guy who was selling the Ei's as RCA Mullards to notify the buyer after the auction had ended.

Of course, that's what he said to me. What he actually did is undisclosed.


----------



## RickyLee

@Marty: You have any more sets of 7027A's for sale? The older REAL ones, not the JJ's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ricky I sold ten 7027A's in the past three weeks for pennies on the dollar. It seems I couldn't give them away.

I wish I had known you were looking for some. I've advertised some smoking deals on power tubes here and got no response so they go to EBAY.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I have the same luck selling power tubes. It doesn't matter if they are NOS 7591A's or Mullard xf2 EL34's, when I list them the price bottoms out. Power tube buyers are just more bitchy in general, too. They seem to be more likely to complain about the least little thing. I never use the word "matched" in a listing any more. I just list the test scores and let people draw their own conclusions.

My TV-7 has never varied more than a point or two since I've had it but I had a buyer drag me through the coals because their TV-7 didn't agree. I've NEVER had any other buyer complain about test scores and my tester was spot-on with my calibration tube, but this buyer was a real ass about it and wouldn't even consider that THEIR tester might be off.

Sorry for the mini-rant. I didn't sleep enough and I'm in a pissy mood.


----------



## mickeydg5

I remember a while back there was a seller who stated in his description that the test scores he presented was his tester's scores and he did not care what anyone else's tester measured. And what he stated is true. No two separate test will be equal and most testers are only capable of 5 to 15% accuracy. Test scores may be even farther apart if voltages are not regulated and the tester is not precisely calibrated.

What did the arse claim about his tester? Was it calibrated and by whom?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well only a newb tube buyer would fall for all the "matched" BS I see on EBAY. It seems that everyone selling power tubes has a matched pair or quad. My favorite expression is "tightly matched."

Whenever I see someone selling any type of tube and they say they all test at 108 (for example) I just move on.

I had to stop buying tubes from the EBAY guy who had the large lots of Black Plates. He uses an emissions tester and all the tubes scores read the same. If you are selling 40 tubes and you say they all test the same, well, we both know that can't be true.

I also see guys with emissions testers that will state high test scores and then follow it up with, "I use an emissions tester. Testing these tubes on a transconductance tester will result in lower scores." Well at least they are trying to be honest, because it is true that emission tester give consistently high test scores.

The other thing is that some emission testers have a meter that goes to 130 or 140. If a tube reads 95 it will be a 24 on my tester or a 34 on your tester. Most sellers do not go into detail about the type of tester they are using. I pretty much feel confident to buy if they are using a B and K 700/707/747, a Hickok or a TV tester.


----------



## mickeydg5

I understand there will be differences in scores and opinions. If I bid it is done in accordance to the information provided. I have only had one or two cases of return or refund due to wrong item shipped or a dead tube. It is hard to understand a dead tube if it were supposedly tested prior to auction. That makes me think it was never tested at all especially if the seller ask no questions.

I do not buy tons but if I bid based on emission test I usually look for high numbers and will only bid low. That helps with statistics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm sure I've told you this Mickey, but I have had sellers cancel a transaction when I tell them I will be testing their tubes.

Reason? Well they listed the tubes as tested and posted the scores. After they find out I will be testing them, I have had several sellers admit that they don't even own a tester. The test scores were all bogus and was merely an attempt to deceive a buyer.


----------



## RickyLee

Man, I have been GAS'ing for a REAL valve tester for quite some time now. I only have an old Heathkit that does the basic tests.

Without melting down my credit card, what would be a decent tester to try and pick up? I want to be able to do all the REAL tests of course.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh I don't remember the particulars but his tester was perfect, no doubt. He checked his scores against a MAXI MATCHER. When they pull a Maxi Matcher out of their ass, you'd might as well pack up and go home. That's like arguing with God.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No shit. That or an Amplitrex 1000.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RickyLee said:


> Man, I have been GAS'ing for a REAL valve tester for quite some time now. I only have an old Heathkit that does the basic tests.
> 
> Without melting down my credit card, what would be a decent tester to try and pick up? I want to be able to do all the REAL tests of course.



You should try and find a B & K 700/707/747. These run between $200 and $300. However, just like and old tube amp these vintage tester at the least will need some caps replaced and it wouldn't hurt to use a lubricant/cleaner on the pots. The details on how to calibrate a B & K are on the Internet.

Of course the first two that I bought I used as is and they did the job. Now when I found my fourth 707 it was in very good condition and all the sockets were tight. I paid $300 for it. I then shipped it to an old guy in Washington that cleans, repairs and calibrates B & K's. This cost me another $150. When I got it back I realized it tested 12AX7's five points higher than before it was calibrated. Five points on a 12AX7 test is a lot. 22 is 65 percent and 30 is around 85 percent. You can see where being five points off would make a big difference in determining if the tube was good or not. I also went with a SS rectifier that is a direct replacement for the #83 rectifier tube. Not only does this lessen internal heat buildup, it is more stable than a tube rectifier whick can effect testing as it ages.

There are also some models of a Hickok that are good. Not as fast for testing as a B & K, but they are better quality and a little more accurate.

The main thing is you want a transconductance tester. You do not want an emissions tester (which you will find all over EBAY).


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Oh I don't remember the particulars but his tester was perfect, no doubt. He checked his scores against a MAXI MATCHER. When they pull a Maxi Matcher out of their ass, you'd might as well pack up and go home. That's like arguing with God.


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> No shit. That or an Amplitrex 1000.


I would like to hear and see how they compare, check and equate a TV-7 score to that of a Maxi-Matcher or Amplitrex.

I do not like that fact that MaxiMatcher gives minimal information and instruction. I cannot find a manual on the MaxiMatcher II. I would venture to say most really do not know how to interpret readings even though they state easy instruction on the lid because there is little explanation of operation and interpretation. For the uninformed it may be good for matching but not for comparing to other tester's readings.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, I have a B&K 700 that I have had sitting around but never got around to doing anything with it. Everything works but like Marty says, it will need going over. It's not beyond being a good DIY project - the calibration procedure is well documented and fairly easy if you have a true RMS meter and a few resistors. PM me if you're interested and we might work something out.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Ricky, I have a B&K 700 that I have had sitting around but never got around to doing anything with it. Everything works but like Marty says, it will need going over. It's not beyond being a good DIY project - the calibration procedure is well documented and fairly easy if you have a true RMS meter and a few resistors. PM me if you're interested and we might work something out.



I am getting ready to step out for a bit. I will PM you in a bit. Thanks for keeping me in mind.


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

Hi, I would like to know the brand of the power tubes in the Haze 40.
I want to buy the exact same tube as those EL34 labelled Marshall EL34 vlve-00042 tube amp factor. I can't find the same one on the web after many searches. I went to the Tube amp factor website but I don't see them. I have read that sometimes Marshall can use Shuguangs or something else.


----------



## damienbeale

Its in the Stock Marshall Tube Codes sticky...

Shuguang EL34B


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

Thank you very much


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

I am trying to figured out to do the Bias on that Haze 40 but it is very hard to find something as simple as a photo showing the pots to turn to change the mva and where are the pins to connect to. I saw two screws with a red dot over it, is it this?


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

I think that I figured out the pin to connect it is CON3 the pin1 and pin3 right?


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

So I tested my old tubes it seems that it was 28mva and 25.4mva. I was surprised that it was that low. 
I actually read that if the tubes are too cold it is when you might have eventually a crackling distortion. SO I thought maybe I can try to make it hotter around 39mva like it is supposed to.

I tested my new JJ they were at 41mva and 42.9mva maybe a little bit to high.

But I wanted to retry with the old ones, and it was really 28mva and 25.4mva, and then I wanted to see how the tubes react when you play. I started to play, to finally realize that the crakling sound was gone. I couldn't beleive it. I played and played and no the noisy sound was gone. I put everything back in the amp again, try again, and the crackling sound was back. What is going on??? Can someone give me an explanation to this? I might receive some new EL34B Shuguang tomorrow, but still I would have to know if my tubes are really bad or not.


----------



## RiverRatt

Eddy, try cleaning the tube pins and sockets and see if that helps the crackling. It's easy to do. Just spray the pins with contact cleaner and work the tube in and out of the socket a few times.


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

Thank you for your fast answer. I can try that. Is there any particular contact cleaner I should try?


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was one bid for $769.


----------



## damienbeale

[I[/I]


Eddy Rigotti said:


> Thank you for your fast answer. I can try that. Is there any particular contact cleaner I should try?



Deoxit DN5 or D5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh brother. Did you hear that JJ is will some be manufacturing "Telefunken" tubes?

A 6L6GC Telefunken? How about a 6550?

6L6GC-TK


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

Thank you Damienbeale but it didn't work, so maybe my old tubes are getting too old. I gave another with the JJ's, I did the bias to 39mva, but don't like the sound. Actually this is more like I liked better the sound that I had before. By the way I did the bias with a Eurotubes it is a bias probe and it woked, I mean I was able to check the mva on each tubes, but then I tried the old fashioned way the pins that I saw on the schematic and it was impossible to to see the mva, nothing changed. I am a little confused with that.

Anyway tomorrow I will receive some EL34B Shuguang that are supposed to be the same as the stock tubes that are delivered with the Haze 40. I hope that I will be able to get the sound that I loved with this amp.


----------



## damienbeale

Eddy Rigotti said:


> Thank you Damienbeale but it didn't work, so maybe my old tubes are getting too old. I gave another with the JJ's, I did the bias to 39mva, but don't like the sound. Actually this is more like I liked better the sound that I had before. By the way I did the bias with a Eurotubes it is a bias probe and it woked, I mean I was able to check the mva on each tubes, but then I tried the old fashioned way the pins that I saw on the schematic and it was impossible to to see the mva, nothing changed. I am a little confused with that.
> 
> Anyway tomorrow I will receive some EL34B Shuguang that are supposed to be the same as the stock tubes that are delivered with the Haze 40. I hope that I will be able to get the sound that I loved with this amp.



This sounds rather high. What is the plate voltage on this amp?


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

I don't know about the plate voltage but 39mv is what Marshall recommend for this amp. The old tubes that I was in there were lower though, 28 and 26. Does it sound more normal for you?


----------



## Eddy Rigotti

Yeah I received my new EL34B Shuguang, did the bias just like how it was 28 and 26, and Voila, my sound is back! I am so happy!


----------



## damienbeale

Eddy Rigotti said:


> I don't know about the plate voltage but 39mv is what Marshall recommend for this amp. The old tubes that I was in there were lower though, 28 and 26. Does it sound more normal for you?


Assuming the B+ is the Marshall norm of above 460V, it sounds a little too high to be honest. I'd try a little lower and USE YOUR EARS. 
If it sounds better at 39mV then so be it. You should be safe at that with the Shuguangs, and you're not really taxing the power supply. Any of the true EL34's (non-Chinese) and you might be asking a bit too much though, unless you have any Winged C's kicking about. These usually like their bias point a little lower though, but every circuit is different. Also, JJ E34L does not count as an EL34, and will also take a bit more of a beating current-wise than the EL34's.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh brother. Did you hear that JJ is will some be manufacturing "Telefunken" tubes?



Yeah, I mentioned that in the preamp tube thread a few weeks ago but I didn't know about the power tubes. They have a Telefunken Black Diamond series ECC83-TK already. Of course it has gold pins. Imagine how good these are gonna sound when Bob freezes a batch of them!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just for grins and giggles I picked up a pair of Matsushita EL34's for under $40 on EBAY. They aren't tested and are in a box marked "old." I'm hoping they have a little life left in them. A lot of tube guys feel that the "Matties" are better sounding than an RFT. One thing for sure, they don't come up on EBAY all that often.

One is labeled Realistic Lifetime and the other is a yellow print Raytheon Certified. Both have Japan stamped on them.


----------



## damienbeale

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I mentioned that in the preamp tube thread a few weeks ago but I didn't know about the power tubes. They have a Telefunken Black Diamond series ECC83-TK already. Of course it has gold pins. Imagine how good these are gonna sound when Bob freezes a batch of them!



No doubt so bright clear and cutting that he'll have to pull out his welding goggles again.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> There was one bid for $769.


I saw these last week and figured they would sit at that price.
$769 was the starting bid.

And someone bid on them!!!?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes they sold at the starting bid. The seller's BIN price was $1200. I would have shit if someone paid that. As it is, the buyer paid almost $200 per tube. Crazy stupid.

There are several listings for the same RCA's, but as matched pairs for a lot less money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

damienbeale said:


> No doubt so bright clear and cutting that he'll have to pull out his welding goggles again.



It should be funny, because if Bob sells them he will have to contradict himself since he has stated repeatedly there isn't a better tube on the market than a JJ.


----------



## RiverRatt

But these tubes are the uber JJ. He won't have to contradict himself. Now he can sell the same JJ ECC83's that he's been selling and charge twice as much for them.


----------



## damienbeale

The irony of dark sounding JJ's being labelled with a brand noted for it's crisp clear neutrality is really hard on my brain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well JJ is already making a proprietary 12AX7 for the Vietnamese DSL's. I wonder if the Tele tubes will actually be dark sounding like a run of the mill JJ?


----------



## mickeydg5

Have not found a review on the ECC83-TK.

It does look like a typical JJ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee Mickey...are you trying to say that JJ would take one of their existing tubes and put a Telefunken label on it and charge $20 more? Get out of here!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well JJ is already making a proprietary 12AX7 for the Vietnamese DSL's. I wonder if the Tele tubes will actually be dark sounding like a run of the mill JJ?



Yeah and they don't sound dark or flat like the 83s's. That damn V1 sounds great in my DSL. Also sounds excellent paired with a Ray BP in V2. 

My fav and just a hair better is the AC7HG+ in V1 and the AC5HG+ in V2. So far I'm keeping the OEM JJ's in 3 & 4.

Marty let me know how those EL34 Shitas sound. Very curious...


----------



## mickeydg5

Well it is claimed that the tubes go through special testing before receiving the _"special purpose"_ branding.

Before I buy a regular tube for an extra $20 they can suck on my weiner.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmbwRyhszq8"]Butters Stotch - Suck on my Wiener - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Or you can buy a Ruby Shuguang 12AX7AC5 HG+ or AC7 HG+ for $22 and call it a day.


----------



## chee16

Need some advice on 6l6gc tubes for a 78 super reverb and a silvertone 1484. I've read some good things about the tad but just want to make sure it's worth the price. The super reverb will have the normal channel changed to tweed specs and the vibrato channel along with the PI changed to black face specs. 

Thank you


----------



## MartyStrat54

Personally I don't think the TAD 6L6GC's are that expensive. What are they $25 each?

IMO they are the best CP 6L6 you can buy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Look at these worn out bitches for sale on EBAY. At least the seller stated they were weak.


----------



## chee16

I was pretty sure they were an easy lock for the best cp 6l6gc, for some reason I thought they were more in the $30-35 range, isn't my face red. 

Now I just need to decide whether I need a set of 6ca7's for my tsl602......cuz I definitely want some. Plus the winged C'si have in it could be worth big bucks soon! Lol

Thanks for newb reassurance


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know about the Winged C's being worth much. I just sold three mint pairs on EBAY a month ago. All of them were pre-2005 and I only got around $26 for a pair.

If you are wanting to try CP 6CA7's, go with the EH.


----------



## RiverRatt

Chee, I really like the tall bottle Sylvania tubes in a Fender. They aren't too terribly expensive.


----------



## chee16

Nah I was just kidding about the winged C's being worth a lot. Back up tubes are always great, plus I have enough friends that play that I'm sure they will get used. I think they sound good for sure but feel like I need to try the 6ca7, one of those gut feelings......like when you NEED another guitar, haha.

If the amps were mine I would look more into NOS tubes but these guys are local gigging musicians who will be going through tubes. I know the old tubes will last longer, but I just don't know if they have the extra cash right now either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sylvania and GE 6CA7's are very hard to locate. I needed a pair and I had bad luck with what I found (EBAY seller claiming he had NOS tubes, but they weren't). My good pal Damien Beale bought a pair of Triple Getter Sylvania's off of me a couple of years ago and he never used them. He was kind enough to sell them back to me, so I got lucky there. They rarely show up on EBAY and you can expect to pay $65 on up for them regardless of how they test. I've seen low scoring 6CA7's go for $60 each and those that are stated to be NOS get $75. Actually the per unit price isn't that bad. It's just that there isn't a lot of them available anymore.


----------



## chee16

Ordered 2 matched sets of TAD 6l6gc and one matched set of EH 6ca7 today. It's funny, I consider myself an intermediate newb, putting my research time in trying to figure things out as I go. But I had a half hour conversation with my local shop owner about tubes and realized how little he knew, though he does admit that also. So for the record, I regurgitated many things I have read on here from the gurus and looked like I knew what I was talking about, so thank you guys! Haha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

"Westinghouse" 6L6GC's. Hmm?


----------



## MartyStrat54

> nice vintage 7581 set of tubes, RCA , tested on EICO 667. needle falls in middle of good range. Thats as high as any 6L6 I have tested. These look new but I cannot guarantee that. (Sub for 6L6GC)



"That's as high as any 6L6 I have tested." 

How many did you test? Ha ha ha.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Look at these worn out bitches for sale on EBAY. At least the seller stated they were weak.



WEAK? Hell, I'd never fit that right hand one in anything but a light bulb holder.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> "Westinghouse" 6L6GC's. Hmm?


Gotta be worth all of $5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How ironic. A Russky tube sold as an American tube during the Cold War.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was thinking that when I saw the picture, a Russian 6L6 substitute.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Every once in a blue moon I get lucky on EBAY. I already posted that I took a chance on an untested pair of Matsushita EL34's. I got them for $42 (including shipping). Well they showed up today and I plopped them in the tester and OMG...both test right above 100.

You can't beat that with a stick!

It was a win-win situation because the seller had a 14 day return policy. No need to return these fine tubes.


----------



## damienbeale

I was a little surprise about the C designation on the end of 6L6G. Given the original specs of those tubes... (I know, I know, contentious point)


----------



## RickyLee

I am curious, wondering what the older 7027A valves are supposed to sound like compared to other valves? Are they basically just a 6L6?

I have not noticed any tonal difference with them in my Ampeg V4 compared to running 6L6's in the Ampeg.


----------



## mickeydg5

A 7027(A) is a 6L6GC type with a different pinout.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 7027 wasn't as good as a 6L6GC spec wise. Pretty lame. The 7027A was a monster. It is rated at 600 on the plates and 500 on the screens.

I had thought about staying with the 7027A's in my RCA PA amp, but then I made the smart move and went with the EL34/6CA7 set up.

The 7027(A)'s are capable of a very clean tone. I'm really surprised that Fender never used them. The fact that they have a different pin out was probably what really hurt them.


----------



## mickeydg5

The smart move? Is that because you are an EL34 type guy Marty?


----------



## RickyLee

Since when did Sovtek start making the 7027A? I know JJ has one. But the JJ is just supposed to be a 6L6 with the 7027A pinout. Is this the case with the Sovtek 7027A as well?


----------



## RickyLee

Do these plate innards look familiar to other 6L6 valves?

Three 3 Sovtek 7027A acz Amp Vacuum Tubes Free Shipping | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> Do these plate innards look familiar to other 6L6 valves?
> 
> Three 3 Sovtek 7027A acz Amp Vacuum Tubes Free Shipping | eBay


 I am going to have to say those are JJ tubes with Sovtek boxes.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, I thought that single round hole looked VERY familiar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> The smart move? Is that because you are an EL34 type guy Marty?



Yeah the smart move. I can use EL34/6CA7/KT77 in the amp instead of just the 7027A. 

I had thought of going with the 6L6GC, but no.

And I am an EL34 kind of guy with a love for the 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boys.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> And I am an EL34 kind of guy with a love for the 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boys.


(Blows a raspberry and utters expletives under breath)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of Fat Boys. How many hours do you think the above 6CA7's saw? I mean when the getter flash turns tea colored that means the horse was run to death.

The last time I saw tubes like that was when I went on vacation in October and Micky (not Mickey) posted pictures of those GE 6550's that looked like they had 10,000 hours on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> You wanted the best, you found the best. Matching quad of Sylvania 6BQ5 EL84 audio power output tubes, BEST of best. Mint NOS USA inventory. Matching factory codes on each tube, and beautifully matched for plate current and transconductance. You get all 4 tubes for your purchase.



I hope you get all four tubes. You want $200 fvcking dollars for them. LMAO!

Matching Quad Sylvania 6BQ5 EL84 Power Output Tubes New USA Tube | eBay


----------



## damienbeale

Shit damn! Greyplates can't even be worth half that, can they?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just love all the shit I read on EBAY. It's fvcking hilarious. "Best of the best." Give me a break. SYL Gray Plates are good, but not $50 each good.

If they were mine I'd be getting $25 each for them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I always think of 6BQ5's the same way as 6V6's. Both were so ubiquitous that they are still plentiful. They just aren't worth that kind of money.I found a shop in Nashville that's specializing in tube amp repair and mods. They are selling matched quads of Ei EL84's for $100 and I thought that was a little high. They also had some Teslas for $15 each.


----------



## RickyLee

Is the TAD 6L6 black plate the same exact valve as the Groove Tube 6L6 that has the black plates? Is it the GT 6L6 GE I am thinking of?

I have a pair of the GT 6L6C(HP) that I pulled from an amp that was running over 510V on the plates. I need a quad of 6L6 right now and it is almost an emergency LOL. Problem is that I am broke for $ right now. Would like to try those TAD's but they are $100 a quad. Is that the going price?

@Marty: I PM'ed you with a 6L6 question.


----------



## chee16

Try living in Canada, I just bought 2 matched sets of tad 6l6gc for apps I'm reining for a friend and it was just over $140. My friend wanted the best current production tubes he could get though. I can't wait to try then out, the super reverb has sovtek right now, gross! Haha


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> Is the TAD 6L6 black plate the same exact valve as the Groove Tube 6L6 that has the black plates? Is it the GT 6L6 GE I am thinking of?
> 
> I have a pair of the GT 6L6C(HP) that I pulled from an amp that was running over 510V on the plates. I need a quad of 6L6 right now and it is almost an emergency LOL. Problem is that I am broke for $ right now. Would like to try those TAD's but they are $100 a quad. Is that the going price?
> 
> @Marty: I PM'ed you with a 6L6 question.



I goofed. The GT 6L6 with the black plates is the 6L6C(HP). GT states that they have added heat sink wings. Wondering if these are the same as the TAD 6L6 black plate that Marty refers to?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The GT 6L6's are not very good sounding tubes. Damien just relayed to me that the CHP's are crap and very thin sounding.

Not the same as the TAD's which are probably the best CP 6L6GC's available.

PM responded to.


----------



## chee16

I got the EH6ca7's in today and tried them out for about a half hour tonight. I need to put some hours on these tubes but so far they sound great. Just as described, bit less mid grind that el34's are loved for, top end seems a bit more sparkly, haha. But that's only after a half hour and with the same settings as I was using with the winged C el34's. So far I'm not disappointed in the least, but I'm looking forward to meeting with the EQ on my crunch channel which I can't seem to get off of lately


----------



## RickyLee

Just got done with some power valve rollin' and experimenting using some valves I have had stashed away for quite some time. 

First was the 2555 Jubilee Clone. It has Ruby EL34BSTR's. So I started with those and pulled out two of them so I could compare some pairs of valves I have: JJ 6CA7, EH EL34 and GT 6L6S. I could not hear any noticeable change in the three EL34's. Maybe just a touch more bottom end beef on the Ruby's. But when I got o the 6L6S, they would not bias up into range. Lowest I could get them down to was 54mA. Tried them anyway and they did not sound articulate at all in the Jubilee. Maybe it had to do with the hot bias? But then it seemed like I lost a touch of output as well. Odd. But then I was running them with 1K screens and maybe that caused some of the stiffness and dull tone. I am also figuring that the Jubilee gets most of its tone from the preamp anyway. And this latter holds up for the next amp I ran these through.

I pulled out the all stock '88 2205. Still has all its original caps ect. It had a set of strong RFT EL34's but I was still not digging this amp much compared to my slightly modified '88 2205 #1. Had the same thing happen with the EL34's as I heard no audible change between the RFT's, JJ's, EH and Ruby's. But then something happened that I was somewhat hoping for and slightly expecting: I heard a bit of improvement in the 2205 with the GT 6L6S. Set them at 37mA @478V. It held the bottom end together slightly better than the EL34's and also allowed me to crank the Mids up higher. Had a really good tone with the Gain set at 3 - 5. Sounds like some of the buzzsaw characteristic of the amp was lessened at higher Gain settings as well. But like the Jubilee, the Split Channel gets most of its tonal character from the preamp.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> The GT 6L6's are not very good sounding tubes. Damien just relayed to me that the CHP's are crap and very thin sounding.
> 
> Not the same as the TAD's which are probably the best CP 6L6GC's available.
> 
> PM responded to.



Those I have are clearly way past their best though.


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## RickyLee

Interesting, as I figured those new production 6L6 black plates would be coming from the same manufacturing plant. So there are two plants out there producing black plate valves?


----------



## damienbeale

RickyLee said:


> Interesting, as I figured those new production 6L6 black plates would be coming from the same manufacturing plant. So there are two plants out there producing black plate valves?



Not necessarily. The Chinese plants do a lot of bulk special orders.


----------



## RickyLee

So then what would be the difference between the GT 6L6C(HP) and the TAD 6L6 black plates?


----------



## yladrd61

There are many different tubes labeled as GT 6L6GC, My '65 RI Fender BFDR came with GT relabeled Winged C 6L6GC I biased them up a little hotter and they sound great, also their 6L6GE short bottles were made for them in China like their (EL34M,and 
12AX7M) and are a very nice sounding tube. They also relabel JJ,Sovtek,and Shuguang 6L6s


----------



## damienbeale

RickyLee said:


> So then what would be the difference between the GT 6L6C(HP) and the TAD 6L6 black plates?



Apart from the extra cooling fins you mean? 
There could be a whole load of differences in the screens, since the grids are usually where the biggest differences lie anyway. There is a whole plethora of reasons for valves to sound and behave differently other than just plate structures and coatings.


----------



## Medronio

Hello.
I bought a used Marshall Haze 15 Head and matching cab and it freakin`rox! 

The pre-ownder told me he never swapped tubes and the amp is 4 years old ...
So no i want to change the tubes for safety reason, expecially the power tubes.
Do the 2 power 6V6 have to be a matched pair?
Can i easy set the bias by myself?
Can i change the preamp tubes at my will cause i have some spare ECC83 types in my boxx like one 5751, one 7025, one 12AX7 mostly by JJ or must i use the same type of preamp tube by the same manufactor?
Greetings from sunny germany!


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## mickeydg5

Medronio said:


> Hello.
> I bought a used Marshall Haze 15 Head and matching cab and it freakin`rox!
> 
> The pre-ownder told me he never swapped tubes and the amp is 4 years old ...
> So no i want to change the tubes for safety reason, expecially the power tubes.
> Do the 2 power 6V6 have to be a matched pair?
> Can i easy set the bias by myself?
> Can i change the preamp tubes at my will cause i have some spare ECC83 types in my boxx like one 5751, one 7025, one 12AX7 mostly by JJ or must i use the same type of preamp tube by the same manufactor?
> Greetings from sunny germany!


It is best to use a matched set for power tubes. The bias has two trimmers, one for each 6V6GT.
You can roll preamp tubes around but do not use a 5751 type at V2 because it is not rated for the high heater-cathode voltage present there.

There are high voltages in your amplifier and you should be familiar with these things otherwise it is best to take it to a technician. It is good to learn how to bias though.


----------



## Medronio

Thank you so far!
2 more questions:
I) Why should i use a matched set of 6v6 when there are exclusive trimmers for each tube? I guess it is built to supply a non matched set with different voltage settings, so i do not understand why a matched set should be used.
II) I have some Preamp tubes here: 1*7025. 1*5751, 1*ECC83S and 1*ECC81
-> So i can use all tubes where i want except 5751 in V2, right?

Greetings


----------



## damienbeale

Medronio said:


> Thank you so far!
> 2 more questions:
> I) Why should i use a matched set of 6v6 when there are exclusive trimmers for each tube? I guess it is built to supply a non matched set with different voltage settings, so i do not understand why a matched set should be used.
> II) I have some Preamp tubes here: 1*7025. 1*5751, 1*ECC83S and 1*ECC81
> -> So i can use all tubes where i want except 5751 in V2, right?
> 
> Greetings




1. There are parameters other than just current draw that should be taken into consideration when matching tubes. At the end of the day you want a pair of tubes that will sound balanced on both halves of the swing, not just the current draw (although a slight imbalance on the current draw can often improve things audibly...)

2. Yep. I wouldn't try the ECC81 anywhere except V1 though. They can be a little ugly in other positions at times, but it all depends on the circuit. Not tried them in a DSL15 however...


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## Medronio

I want to put them in the Haze 15 (not! the DSL 15) ...


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## damienbeale

Medronio said:


> I want to put them in the Haze 15 (not! the DSL 15) ...



Sorry, nor one of those.


----------



## Medronio

Thank you!


----------



## mickeydg5

Just to add to what Damien said and further answer your question. The two bias trimmers are there to aid in balancing idle bias draw of a fairly matched set in a the push-pull situation. This will reduce hum and noise in the output. It can help somewhat with power but balancing power is a different issue and is why you want matched sets. Of course matching can mean within 20% of each other (the old days) but most sets are within a few percent nowadays.


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## Medronio

Ok. Thank you!
I will order a matched Set of Tungsol 6V6 for my Haze 15.
Greetings from headache after beer House


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## RiverRatt

I have a pair of JJ 6L6GC's that I pulled from an amp. Just for S&G I tried them in my Tweaker 15 head and they sound really nice. I'd like to hear them in a Fender amp before I pass judgement but the Tweaker is all I had. They seem to have pretty strong mids for a 6L6.


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## MartyStrat54

WARNING-EBAY ALERT

Here is a good one. Seller is listing a pair of EL34's for sale as Mullards. Someone asks if the tubes have any codes. He states one does, it is an xF2. Okay, great. Look at the getter and the plates on these two tubes. See anything that jumps out at you?


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## mickeydg5

The one on the left is not a Mullard.
Which manufacturer had the ribs in the plate, one of the Japanese? I forget.


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## dave999z

Hey folks. I know I could probably find this if I searched endlessly through this thread (I did try), so sorry if I'm asking people to repeat a topic already covered repeatedly...

Is there any difference between the "EL34B-STR" sold by TAD versus the one sold by Ruby? Do they both just take a Shuguang EL34B and test or screen it? If so, do you think one does a better job testing than the other? I see the Ruby available for around $40 per pair, while the TAD are more like $50.

Also, how do people feel the EL34B-STR compares to the Tungsol EL34B (which are about $50 per pair), or the Groove Tubes EL34M (which are like $60 per pair), or the SED =C= (which are now like $100 per pair)?

Looking for balanced/versatile tubes... Good clean and crunch, but also lead tones with rich blooming harmonic content, sustain, and light compression. Not too much to ask from a reasonably priced CP tube right?

Thanks!!!


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## MartyStrat54

The TAD's look like the Shuguang, but they are supposed to be different internally. I recommend the TAD's over the other one's you are talking about.


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## RiverRatt

The EL34M is a more warm tube with softer highs and good bottom end. The =C= is more mid-focused with good crunch. Either is a good choice in a Marshall. I preferred the EL34M in my DSL but the SED's are great too, just a different tone. Based on the sound you're describing, it sounds like the EL34M is what you should try. 

I can't really give the others a fair shake. I have a pair of TAD's any I've had Rubys too but I didn't get to do a side-by-side comparison. The TAD's sound nice in my Egnater.


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## RiverRatt

Didn't mean to step on Marty's toes. I'm slow on a cell phone.


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## MartyStrat54

I don't have any toes to step on.

I like the GT EL34M's, but the TAD's have just been getting a lot of good positive reviews.


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## dave999z

Thanks guys! That's helpful. Really appreciate it.

Seems like there's not much love for the Tungsols?


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## MartyStrat54

Well here's what I think about the Tungsol's. They can make the bass boomy with certain amps that have an unfavorable tone stack that accents the bass frequencies. In the right amp they can sound okay, but they aren't a favorite of mine and they don't seem to be a big seller.


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## dave999z

Hard decision between the TAD and the Groove Tubes...

TAD = cheaper (about $50 delivered for a matched pair). GT = slightly more (about $65), but no wait as I could just pick them up at my local Guitar Center (puke).

I'm sure they're both good, and I probably could not tell them apart in a blind test.

If the EL34M is potentially a more warm tube with softer highs, it may work better for me, as I find the DSL40C is quite a bright amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You need to stick a Mullard or Tungsram in V1 to get a warmer tone. The EL34M's are a little warmer than the TAD's. If you want warmer, go with the 34M's.

Just from feedback that I have received, it seems that the TAD's have a better history of working without developing any issues. If you are buying from GC, find out what sort of warranty are on the GT's. If they don't give you at least 90 days, I would hesitate to buy them.


----------



## dave999z

Thanks Marty. GC warrants them for 90 days.

Honestly feels kind of weird to be buying tubes (even CP) at GC.

Think the Groove Tubes "rating" (i.e., low 1-3, medium 4-7, or high 8-10) on the EL34M matters at all?

Seems like on Amazon you can pick the exact rating number you want... just search "GT-EL34-MD R1", "GT-EL34-MD R2", "GT-EL34-MD R3", etc. And they're a bit cheaper than GC. Maybe I'll do that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've always recommended the 4-7 rating. I don't know how or if there is a difference between the 1-3, the 4-7 and the 8-10.

Supposedly the 8-10 has the hardest vacuum over the other two. It supposedly has more clean headroom. Who knows?


----------



## solarburn

The 1-3 break up sooner. That's what I have. They sounded great in my DSL50 but that didn't happen in the DSL40C. I'm having that happen in both power and preamp sections. It's not translating the same between my 2 DSL's.

Personally I'd go for the Tad's for the 40C.


----------



## yladrd61

+1 on the GT EL34M I have them in my Ceriatone JMP 50 and they sound great I have had Zero issues with them. Like the TAD tubes they were made in China to their Spec. GT had higher quality before Fender bought them also, they started out relabeling NOS tubes and when those ran out relabeled Russian, Chinese and JJ, they did also have some tubes made in China to their spec.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hurray! I was able to finally buy a single getter Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7 that matches up with another single getter that I have. The new one tests at 95 and the one I had tests at 91.

I have one more single getter that tests at 82. I would like to find a match for it as well.


----------



## solarburn

Man dat sumbitch fat!

That's what she said. Wilder would have pointed this outLOL

Congrats Marty.


----------



## dave999z

Alright, found those Groove Tubes on Amazon Prime for $39, so... SOLD!

Can't wait to receive them and bias them up, and I'll keep in mind they perform best biased rather cold (around 60%).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I wouldn't have the mindset that 60% is best. Try it at 65% and see if you can hear a difference. I usually run around 65%. Each amp will run tubes differently.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Man dat sumbitch fat!
> 
> That's what she said. Wilder would have pointed this outLOL
> 
> Congrats Marty.



They are fatties, ain't they? I had a Sylvania Fat Boy 5AR4 that looked good with those Fat Boy 6CA7's in the RCA amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

Those are some pretty fat tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I guess that gives a whole new meaning to rolling a fat one.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a NOS Tung-Sol 5881 today in an antique store for $7. The box is pristine. I wonder what my odds are of finding a match for it?


----------



## mickeydg5

252,384:1


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Mickey. Are you a bookie? I'll put $10 down at those odds. 

I actually have a fairly decent collection of 5881's but none are NOS. I might be able to find one that's close enough. I like 5881's. I'll probably keep it just to look at.


----------



## mickeydg5

You know that was kidding and besides the odds may be even higher to find an equivalent in the same pristine condition box to match.

I am sure you may have one close enough or hold it until you find one.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah I knew you were kidding. The odds will improve drastically immediately after I get rid of that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And the sad part is even if you found a perfect mate, 5881's don't demand a lot of money.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, they aren't a moneymaker but they very well may be my favorite output tube. They are very rugged and they work well in just about any application. That little Egnater Tweaker head is perfect for rolling power tubes and the 5881's can convincingly sound like an EL34, 6V6 or 6L6 with a few quick adjustments. The Saratov 6P3S is the only other tube that comes close to pulling that off.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice old stock Tung-Sol 5881 pairs go for $40-60 a lot.
If you got them for less than $20 that could be over 100% profit. That is fairly decent for a little time. What is not to like? It is fun. Right?


----------



## USAPatriot

Howdy All,

Two different Marshall OEM EL34B's, stock # VLVE-00092 (top photo) and VLVE-00101 (bottom photo.) There's obvious internal wiring differences between the two sets. Does anyone knowledgeable about the inner workings of power tubes have an opinion about what's going on here and why the differences? I don't fall into the category of "expert", but am surmising that the newer tubes (00101) have additional wiring to make them more efficient in electron production. Just a thought. Thanks! -Rod-


----------



## USAPatriot

No opinions from the experts? -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

I wonder why the usual tube gurus are not posting.

No two tubes will be identical in a perfect construction sense.
All EL34 tubes will have the same element connections, really none have anything additional.

More, better and full pictures will help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry for not responding sooner.

Those are both Shuguang EL34B's with EIA base 8ET pinout.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was thinking that they looked as similar make and model type.

I did not want to make that call without full pictures.


----------



## Micky

But what about the additional connections? Wires?


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> I wonder why the usual tube gurus are not posting.
> 
> No two tubes will be identical in a perfect construction sense.
> All EL34 tubes will have the same element connections, really none have anything additional.
> 
> More, better and full pictures will help.



I can post more angles but what's important to see is already shown. As Micky noted, and the reason I posted, is that there's clearly some extra connections in there. My guess is that they made the tubes more efficient, allowing more electron flow. Question is, what're the ramifications? Should they be run at a lower bias setting...more current = more heat and a shorter lifespan? Are they wringing a few extra watts out of them? Is there some tonal benefit? 
*I* only know the basics of how tubes work but some people here know far more and what it means. I want to know more and what it means, too. Marshall put the new connections in there for a reason. Thanks. -Rod-


----------



## Micky

If you get the chance, more/better photos will help.

Maybe there is nothing to see here? Will need to go thru my stash now...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here's the thing. Shuguang hasn't made any announcement that they have improved on their design. The wiring on the tube has to be compatible for an amp using EL34's. 

How many pins are on each tube?


----------



## USAPatriot

I found this datasheet on the Shuguang EL34B's


----------



## USAPatriot

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well here's the thing. Shuguang hasn't made any announcement that they have improved on their design. The wiring on the tube has to be compatible for an amp using EL34's.
> 
> How many pins are on each tube?



It's an octal. They plugged right into my DSL40C, sent to me by Marshall via Tubeampdepot (TAD). They both (I was sent a pair) have a little TAD sticker on them. -Rod-

EDIT: They SOUND great, BTW.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not really see any thing of vast difference in the bases of those tubes.

The specifications are there. The electrodes work per specifications. Whatever lead work is placed in the base from pin to electrode will not make a difference. Not all lead work looks the same. As I said no two are identical and over years or between manufacturers the lead work can or will be different (looking).


----------



## USAPatriot

Micky said:


> If you get the chance, more/better photos will help.
> 
> Maybe there is nothing to see here? Will need to go thru my stash now...



The two photos I've already posted show there is something to see, Micky, but I'll get more pics at different angles tomorrow. I just photographed the angle with the most obvious difference but there's others as I recall. -Rod-


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> I do not really see any thing of vast difference in the bases of those tubes.
> 
> The specifications are there. The elements work per specifications. Whatever lead work is placed in the base from pin to element will not make a difference. Not all lead work looks the same. As I said no two are identical and over years or between manufacturers the lead work can or will be different.



Well, in one version, the VLVE-00092, I see a pin on each side that's unused. In the other version VLVE-00101, I see those same pins in use, with a "Y" connection coming up from the base. What that means, I don't know. It's why I'm asking  -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

My guess is if VLVE-00101 is a Marshall proprietary tube that maybe it was modeled on the KT77 design.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know it's an octal tube. I asked how many pins were on each tube? Normally there are 7 pins.

TAD's look like the Shuguang design and are made at the Shuguang factory, but they are made to different specifications.


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> My guess is if VLVE-00101 is a Marshall proprietary tube that maybe it was modeled on the KT77 design.



Question is, to what end? There was nothing lacking in the VLVE 00092's. If Marshall wanted KT77's in their DSL's they could have done that. This seems to be an incremental upgrade of sorts. -Rod-


----------



## Micky

Personally I think it is much ado about nothing.

EL34 design hasn't changed much in 50 years, I can't imagine anything ground-breaking or earth-shattering happening all of a sudden without any fanfare or other celebration.

If it is some sort of new design, everyone would know about it and everyone would be using it if was proven to be better or more durable. Or better sounding...

Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you are looking for...


----------



## mickeydg5

USAPatriot said:


> Question is, to what end? There was nothing lacking in the VLVE 00092's. If Marshall wanted KT77's in their DSL's they could have done that. This seems to be an incremental upgrade of sorts. -Rod-


Unless you can attain exact ordering and specification from Marshall or Shugaung, if the case, then there is no telling. Maybe a bit of difference can be heard through a single ended use for comparison giving some insight. I would think that as far as basing and connections are concerned maybe the factory was setup for 6 pin instead of 7 pin in the octals therefore you see a difference in lead work.

Those two valve numbers do not show up on the forum's thread "Stock Marshall Tube Codes".


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> Unless you can attain exact ordering and specification from Marshall or Shugaung, if the case, then there is no telling. Maybe a bit of difference can be heard through a single ended use for comparison giving some insight. I would think that as far as basing and connections are concerned maybe the factory was setup for 6 pin instead of 7 pin in the octals therefore you see a difference in lead work.
> 
> Those two valve numbers do not show up on the forum's thread "Stock Marshall Tube Codes".



I've contacted Kevin at Marshall here in the US and he doesn't know anything about it. He's going to contact Marshall in the UK to see what they have to say. I've seen the list of Marshall tubes here on the forum in the past, a week or so after I got the first DSL40C, and I seem to recall that the stock numbers on the tubes did not match anything on the list, so I'm not surprised. The OP of that list should probably update it with these numbers:

VLVE-00092 and VLVE 00101. More pics will follow. Both of the tubes have 8 internal pins. -Rod-


----------



## MartyStrat54

I already added those valve numbers to that list with a question mark. I try to keep that list updated, but no one seems to want to contribute any info. I am actually interested in the Ei tubes that Marshall used in the 90's up to around 2004.

I've also heard that Marshall used an Ei EL34 (with the nipple tip) for a while, but that it was a lousy tube.

Right now Marshall is using the Shuguang EL34B exclusively. I find it interesting that Marshall sent you TAD tubes as they supposedly use some different materials for some of the internal parts, "but" I have never gotten conclusive proof that the TAD is just not a relabeled Shuguang.


----------



## USAPatriot

MartyStrat54 said:


> I already added those valve numbers to that list with a question mark. I try to keep that list updated, but no one seems to want to contribute any info. I am actually interested in the Ei tubes that Marshall used in the 90's up to around 2004.
> 
> I've also heard that Marshall used an Ei EL34 (with the nipple tip) for a while, but that it was a lousy tube.
> 
> Right now Marshall is using the Shuguang EL34B exclusively. I find it interesting that Marshall sent you TAD tubes as they supposedly use some different materials for some of the internal parts, "but" I have never gotten conclusive proof that the TAD is just not a relabeled Shuguang.



I may have an answer for you regarding the origins of the tubes. I'd asked Kevin about it after they arrived. I gave them a look-see and I surmised to Kevin that they were winged =C=. TAD stocks an EL34B with a designation of STR if I recall correctly, and reading through the TAD page, which is mostly in german, I deduced that the Marshall's are STR's (Winged =C='s). Kevin, however said no, that the 00101's are reissued Mullards. That is coming from Marshall, not me. So question is, who's making the Mullards? I'm guessing that you know, but I don't. 

Some pics. In each pic, the 92 is on the left, the 101 is on the right. I rotated them evenly in all the pics so each are showing the same view. In one there's a jumper from the second internal pin from the right (next to the Pin 1 connection) over to Pin 8. In the other, that jumper is forming a "Y with the second internal pin from the right, but connected to Pin 1. It's easy to see the connections in 3D, not so easy in a flat photograph. -Rod-

First photo: Pin 1 is on the right side of each tube. Note the "Y connection (on the 00101 on the right side photo) from Pin 1 on the right to the second internal pin, but on the 00092 on the left, that connection is going to Pin 8 from the internal pin.






Second Photo: Both tubes have been rolled 180 degrees to see the back side. Pin 1 in now on the left side of each tube.






Third photo: An intermediate angle that lets you count the internal pins ( 8 of them down the center line) not counting the two thin wires in the center. There's 4 pins on each side of the center two wires.


----------



## mickeydg5

Those look neither like =C= nor New Sensor Mullard reissues.


----------



## USAPatriot

Micky said:


> Personally I think it is much ado about nothing.
> 
> EL34 design hasn't changed much in 50 years, I can't imagine anything ground-breaking or earth-shattering happening all of a sudden without any fanfare or other celebration.
> 
> If it is some sort of new design, everyone would know about it and everyone would be using it if was proven to be better or more durable. Or better sounding...
> 
> Nothing to see here, these aren't the droids you are looking for...



Micky,

Why does good progress need to be earth-shattering or groundbreaking? I mean, a guy shows up with a a tale of a DSL40C that apparently has some changes and we're all begging him for photos of the PCB to see what Marshall might have done that's new and improved. This is no different. Maybe it's an old design resurrected. Maybe someone screwed up and put Marshall's paint on the wrong tubes. Or maybe it's something new.

I'm not making any claims. I just came in here with a few photos and some questions is all. Pin 1 and Pin 8 are two entirely different animals, yet that little jumper is doing dual duty in two different tubes. In the 00101, the second internal pin is being energized by Pin 1. In the 00092, that second internal pin is going (to ground, I think) at Pin 8. It's a mystery to me. -Rod-


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> Those look neither like =C= nor New Sensor Mullard reissues.



I thought the Winged =C='s were being done by New Sensor? I hadn't heard that Mullard was as well. -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

Nope, Winged C is SED.
Svetlana is now from New Sensor.

Two different tubes, both Russian.

The tubes in your pictures are Chinese, by Shuguang.


----------



## USAPatriot

I can't read german:

EDITED OUT. Not relevant in the translation lol


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> Nope, Winged C is SED.
> Svetlana is now from New Sensor.
> 
> Two different tubes, both Russian.
> 
> The tubes in your pictures are Chinese, by Shuguang.



Isn't SED defunct? I read they were acquired by New Sensor, I'm sure. -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, defunct recently. SED is/was JSC Svetlana.

I have never heard the SED St. Petersburg factory was bought up by New Sensor.

Add
http://www.wingedc.com/


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes, defunct recently.
> 
> I have never heard the SED St. Petersburg factory was bought up by New Sensor.
> 
> Add
> Winged C



Well, no matter. I'm more interested in finding out what's going on inside the tubes. It's not making any sense to me. If I had a spare I'd send it to you. -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

Maybe this will help and make sense.

In other power tubes like 6L6 types, KT66, KT77, 6550 and KT88 the pin #8 has a "Y" or is connected to both the cathode and screen; base type 7AC.
In an EL34 or 6CA7 pin #8 is connected to the cathode and pin #1 is connected to the screen; base type 8ET.

It has always been like this.

Marshall usually ties pins #1 and #8 together at the tube socket lugs since the EL34 and 6CA7 are not internally tied together.


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> Maybe this will help and make sense.
> 
> In other power tubes like 6L6 types, KT66, KT77, 6550 and KT88 the pin #8 has a "Y" or is connected to both the cathode and screen; base type 7AC.
> In an EL34 or 6CA7 pin #8 is connected to the cathode and pin #1 is connected to the screen; base type 8ET.
> 
> It has always been like this.
> 
> Marshall usually ties pins #1 and #8 together at the tube socket lugs since the EL34 and 6CA7 are not internally tied together.



Understand. Yet in these two cases they have two different things going on. That second internal pin is going in two directions in two different models. To Pin 1 in one, to Pin 8 in the other. Something got changed up for a reason. With luck Marshall will have an answer for me. -Rod-


----------



## Micky

USAPatriot said:


> Micky,
> 
> Why does good progress need to be earth-shattering or groundbreaking? I mean, a guy shows up with a a tale of a DSL40C that apparently has some changes and we're all begging him for photos of the PCB to see what Marshall might have done that's new and improved. This is no different. Maybe it's an old design resurrected. Maybe someone screwed up and put Marshall's paint on the wrong tubes. Or maybe it's something new.
> 
> I'm not making any claims. I just came in here with a few photos and some questions is all. Pin 1 and Pin 8 are two entirely different animals, yet that little jumper is doing dual duty in two different tubes. In the 00101, the second internal pin is being energized by Pin 1. In the 00092, that second internal pin is going (to ground, I think) at Pin 8. It's a mystery to me. -Rod-



It's not my intent to shit on your parade. You know that.
It is my intent to play devils advocate and offer a realistic point of view, that, even though it may be unpopular and even possibly unwarranted, might actually be a real world example of a manufacturer falling prey to the global economy we as a society have created.

Wtf you say? Maybe Marshall is putting anything they can get in these new amps. I fully do believe that if there was something special about this number tube that first, there would be more info, and second, it wouldn't debut in a budget amp. Again I think you might be reading more into this than actually exists.

So prove me wrong. I am not by any means perfect or all knowing. I am not afraid to say I was wrong, and I have put my foot in my mouth many times before. I truly am sorry, I just don't see any definitive evidence it is anything out of the ordinary.

Not trying to be an asshole, just offer a different point of view.


----------



## mickeydg5

Honestly I think Shuguang screwed up and put 7AC base configurations on an EL34.
They called Marshall up and said "We got a bunch of these at a discount price."
Marshall bought them.

The internal lead connection difference does not matter to Marshall.

This would be bad by the way because there are amplifiers out there with EL34/6CA7 that do not tie the screen electrode pin #1 to ground or the cathode.


----------



## USAPatriot

Micky said:


> It's not my intent to shit on your parade. You know that.
> It is my intent to play devils advocate and offer a realistic point of view, that, even though it may be unpopular and even possibly unwarranted, might actually be a real world example of a manufacturer falling prey to the global economy we as a society have created.
> 
> Wtf you say? Maybe Marshall is putting anything they can get in these new amps. I fully do believe that if there was something special about this number tube that first, there would be more info, and second, it wouldn't debut in a budget amp. Again I think you might be reading more into this than actually exists.
> 
> So prove me wrong. I am not by any means perfect or all knowing. I am not afraid to say I was wrong, and I have put my foot in my mouth many times before. I truly am sorry, I just don't see any definitive evidence it is anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> Not trying to be an asshole, just offer a different point of view.



At this point all we can do is wait to see what reply Marshall UK gives to Marshall US, assuming it makes it to me unedited.

I'd hate to think that Marshall was victimized by the tube manufacturer, as postulated above. If so, Marshall definitely needs to exercise greater oversight of it's supply chain, including getting sample products from the factory that has any change made to it or the components. But, it could be an incremental change, that while not major, is just an improvement in methodology. I surmised that the change could be to make the tube more efficient, perhaps to wring a few extra watts out of it, but the change in wiring makes so little sense, I wonder if the 00092 was an error. Or the 00101 is. I may hand draw a diagram of each tube to include the wiring in the base that can't be seen. We'll see. Thanks for everyone's patience. I know I've pushed this, but there has to be some explanation, and maybe it's good maybe it's not. -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

It does nothing for the tube.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Need some power tubes .... check out these one's .....



RCA 6L6GC Holy Grail Black Plate Tubes Rare Beautiful Matched Quad NOS NIB 1972 | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

I was just looking at black plates.
$900 is way too rich for me.


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> It does nothing for the tube.



It's doing something...else it wouldn't exist, or be different from the others. -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

It does have a purpose. It has a different basing. Separating pins #1 and #8 internal connections is for those who use separate cathode and suppressor circuits.

It does nothing for characteristics, power or efficiency if pins #1 and #8 are tied together internally or tied together at the socket lugs.


----------



## USAPatriot

MartyStrat54 said:


> I know it's an octal tube. I asked how many pins were on each tube? Normally there are 7 pins.
> 
> TAD's look like the Shuguang design and are made at the Shuguang factory, but they are made to different specifications.



Sorry I got distracted by other things but Marshall finally got back to me...with no answer.

The internal pin setup looks rather like this:

|||| |U| |||| 

That's 4 pins, one teeny wire coming up from the base, a loop of the same wire size followed by another wire going down to the base (or perhaps they both come up...who can say?) followed by 4 more pins. At any rate, there's 8, not 7. -Rod-


----------



## USAPatriot

mickeydg5 said:


> It does have a purpose. It has a different basing. Separating pins #1 and #8 internal connections is for those who use separate cathode and suppressor circuits.
> 
> It does nothing for characteristics, power or efficiency if pins #1 and #8 are tied together internally or tied together at the socket lugs.



So what would be the consequences of using the "wrong" one? The amp came with the 00092...as did Micky's amp, judging by the original postings in the DSL40C Information Thread. Mine were microphonic so they sent me the 00101's, obviously different as you note. Characteristics aside they would seem to not be interchangable. And I freely admit that I do not savvy (understand) "those who use separate cathode and suppressor circuits" -Rod-


----------



## mickeydg5

There is no wrong one because Marshall connects the socket lugs for pins #1 and #8 together therefore the cathode and suppressor will always be tied regardless of those internal tube conditions. I believe you mentioned a DSL40C which has the power tube socket pins #1 and #8 connected or shorted together.

It was also mentioned in post #3508, maybe elsewhere.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did not know there were seven versions of a Mullard Xf1 EL34.

xf1EL34


----------



## mickeydg5

That is within 3 to 4 to years and having different physical characteristics.


----------



## RobS

One for Marty,
I have read that winged C's really shine when biased hotter (75%) and wanted to know your thoughts?

I tried it with my 2203 at 73% and immediately noticed that the EQ was by far more responsive. Bass is much more, Mids are more prominent and treble is nicer. EQ is much more responsive now, a good thing

Have had it this way for a few weeks now and really like it. I have also run it through the powerbrake at max levels with everything at 10 and no redplating evident.

This is with a NOS Rft in V1 & V2 and EH in V3

rob


----------



## mickeydg5

I was going to say that generalization can be applied to all tubes. Then I noticed that it seems you have three different types of power tubes loaded.

So are you noticing this with all of those loaded at once or is it just a set of =C= tubes?


----------



## RobS

the power tubes are winged c's

pre amp tubes differ, RFT in v1 & 2, Eh in v3

when biased at 70% it sounded good too, just the eq was not anywhere as responsive as compared to 73%. seems little but it made a big difference


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here's my thought. If the tubes are not red plating under max load and you are pleased with 73%, then go for it.

As far as biasing on the Winged C's, I have actually gotten different opinions. Most of the guys liked them at around 65%.

Of course, each type of amp will produce different results.


----------



## mickeydg5

RobS
Sorry I read your post too fast and must have mentally blocked out the V1, V2 and V3 mentioning. 


I have a question(s) of interest though. 
How are you measuring bias?
What is the plate voltage and idle bias current (mA/mV)?


----------



## RobS

thats cool mickeydg5

PV = 472v
Idle current set at 38.6mv (73%)

measured using the 1ohm resistor method

rob


----------



## mickeydg5

RobS said:


> thats cool mickeydg5
> 
> PV = 472v
> Idle current set at 38.6mv (73%)
> 
> measured using the 1ohm resistor method
> 
> rob


That is what I thought. You are not considering or factoring in the screen current. You are actually running in the 63-64% range. 70% would be more like 42mA area depending on the plate voltage difference.


----------



## RobS

Doh!

I guess I was wrong. 

It sounds great so I will leave it as is

thanks for your clarification. 

rob


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why I mentioned in my previous post that most guys run around 65% with the Winged C's. I failed to mention that was accounting for screen draw.


----------



## chee16

I'm now officially dabbling in the Single ended EL84 world! So I need some suggestions on both current production and affordable old stock.

The amp is an Epiphone Valve Special in which is essentially a copy of the Matchless Lightning except single ended. So I copied all the values from the Lightning schem, replaced the stock speaker with an Eminence Ramrod (so nice!) and have been experimenting with preamp tubes. I simply have zero knowledge of EL84 tubes. The stock tube (Sovtek) was pretty plain but not terrible I guess, but has developed heater filament rattle (oh well), and I bought a Mesa branded EL84 that I believe to be a Mullard RI. The local shop I bought it from had a matched set of Mullard's to compare it to and they were identical, getter plates wires everything. I read some reviews that said the Mullard can break up easier which isn't really what I'm looking for.

I play blues rock and the most overdriven tones I go for are Joe Bonamassa type stuff, the rest is Hendrix to SRV for the most part. I usually push it with my tube screamer clone too.

Hope that is enough info, or not too much info.

Thank you!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If it is a Mullard EL84 RI, than yes, it will break up the quickest. For a tube with more headroom and a louder clean tone, for CP a Preferred Series 7189.

For OS tubes the best value would be a Sylvania Black Plate.


----------



## chee16

Thanks Marty. As you know I really like the preferred 7025, but the 7189 is pretty pricey, is it worth it in your opinion? I'm thinking old stock makes sense in this amp since there is just the one tube and that tube plus a decent role in the tone of the amp.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I got some RFT EL34 tubes (from Alan) a while back & finally put them to use in my JMD:1. I biased them @ 37.9mA & they sound great! The original stock tubes had stickers saying they were biased to 40mA, but one was 40+/- & the other was 44+/-.

I put one of those Tunsgram tubes (from you Marty) in the PI & the thing smokes! I tried it in the 1st slot on the JVM & it didn't seem as good as the tube I had in before. Less gain, sustain & response, but in the PI here, it's just perfect!

I really liked the JMD:1 before, but now it's like a new amp. Kicks ass!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's sort of odd Dogs. That Tungsram should kick ass in a V1 slot. I'm glad you are happy with it in the PI.

What did you end up with in V1 in the JVM?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I put the old one back in...

Telefunken (ribbed) 12AX7


----------



## mickeydg5

That kind of explains that.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Question :

Where is the best place to get JJ tubes from ??


----------



## johnfv

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Question :
> 
> Where is the best place to get JJ tubes from ??


I've had great experiences with The Tube Store and AES/AmplifiedParts. Considering AES has 10% off everything right now and (and I believe Amplified Parts is a sponsor of MF) IMO it's a no brainer. Antique Electronic Supply

That said, are you sure JJ is what you want?


----------



## Gene Ballzz

johnfv said:


> I've had great experiences with The Tube Store and AES/AmplifiedParts. Considering AES has 10% off everything right now and (and I believe Amplified Parts is a sponsor of MF) IMO it's a no brainer. Antique Electronic Supply
> 
> That said, are you sure JJ is what you want?



+1 and X10 on AES!
Gene


----------



## MarshallDog

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Question :
> 
> Where is the best place to get JJ tubes from ??



I buy all my tubes from The Tube Store. They have great customer service, great warranty, fast shipping, never had an issue. Great people...


----------



## MartyStrat54

What a joke. Some people...geesh! $575 for a quad of single getter Sylvania 6CA7's and ONE OF THEM IS SHOT!

On top of that, they are untested. 

Red flag...red flag...red flag.

Vintage Sylvania 4 Tube Matched Set in Original Box 6CA7 EL34 | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

I was flipping round ebay yesterday and saw a Steinberger with buy it now for about $100grand.
I hope he was not serious or I do not think he was because he also wanted $10,000 for shipping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Take a look at that picture of the tubes. That one tube is shot and the seller is seen holding it with a paper towel. WTF is that all about?


----------



## mickeydg5

I saw that. He said it might be bad and all are untested.
Three 6CA7 tubes at $192 each. That is a deal.


----------



## RickyLee

I wanna know, what is going on with the thumb in the picture?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a dude with bad grooming standards.


----------



## Swede

RickyLee said:


> I wanna know, what is going on with the thumb in the picture?



old classic coke nail......


----------



## mickeydg5

I wanna know why he is afraid to touch the tube.

Is it contaminated with SARS, Ebola or Anthrax?


----------



## RickyLee

mickeydg5 said:


> I wanna know why he is afraid to touch the tube.
> 
> Is it contaminated with SARS, Ebola or Anthrax?



I think he is afraid, because he is a she.


----------



## mickeydg5

How do you know Tinglyreward is a she?


----------



## RickyLee

mickeydg5 said:


> How do you know Tinglyreward is a she?



No first _*hand*_ (or thumb) experience. Just a guess by the look of that thumb.

LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy has two quads he is selling for $600 per set. $150 per tube. That is just plain crazy. At least they are OO getter tubes.






Matched Quad Philips ECG Sylvania Fat Bottle 6CA7 EL34 Tubes 2 | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oops!


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not have that much experience with browned getters.

But I have read that brown, burnt looking or lack of shiny flashing is no indication of use, used or worn tubes. I have read and seen this in various write ups and articles.

Example:

TubeSound » Blog Archive » brown-black getter flashing does not mean ‘Used’!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I will say that I have had tubes with "fresh" looking tea colored flashing and they tested good. However I have also seen "burnt" looking tea colored flashing on power tubes with a gazillion hours on them.

I remember member Micky that found a quad of US GE 6550's, they all had that burnt look to them and looked completely worn out.

A light brown getter does not mean that the tube won't work. However, regardless if the tube measures strong or not, it affects the money that the tube will bring. Buyer's are used to seeing bright, shiny getters. When they see the tea colored getters they think of spoiled chicken.


----------



## mickeydg5

But if a tube is tested on a good tester and results indicate good testing including transconductance with normal currents and long life (an actual LIFE test, no visual confirmation of getter color) then would that not conclude a GOOD tube?

That is what I would go by.

I understand that getter flashing can discolor and maybe deteriorate over time from usage but you would have to know its original state and coloration.

Again I do not have enough data but maybe one day  .


----------



## Metroman

Ive got a matched pair of GEC's in my Metro GMP45 and Im going to put some different 1's in and use the GEC Label as a Back up.
I am wondering the difference between these 2 Types of KT66's.
Both in construction and sound. If any.


----------



## mickeydg5

Both sets are MO-Valve/GEC. The grey glass is considered better and I believe to be older.
I would keep the best (tested or sound wise) set as a backup.


But then again I would rather listen to my best set first especially if I am older. Dilemma! 


Wait, umm, ok definitely best set first. Those tubes may outlast the user.


----------



## Metroman

Yeah Im 55 so they should last me a while.


----------



## mickeydg5

Most people will never even touch tubes like that, lucky bastard.

I mean that in a good way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> But if a tube is tested on a good tester and results indicate good testing including transconductance with normal currents and long life (an actual LIFE test, no visual confirmation of getter color) then would that not conclude a GOOD tube?



You missed my point. Even if a tube with a tea colored flash tests good, it won't bring as much money as a tube with a bright silver flash. And if it is a lower priced tube then you probably are not going to be able to sell it at all.

As your shared article stated, a lot of folks out there associate that sort of getter as being a bad tube. 

I have four Mullard "Black Top" ECC83's that I could never sell because of the black colored getter flash.


----------



## Metroman

"Quote"
Most people will never even touch tubes like that, lucky bastard.

I mean that in a good way.  




No Offense taken. I do have a sense of humor.

My friends call me worse. You don't want to know what I call them.

I as just wondering if there is anything different internally and in reality what something the glass does t the tubes? 

These tubes are 1956-57.

Also a while back in another amp that runs KT66s. I killed 1 of the Kt66's with to much voltage at the wall. I think it was fatigue over time. I now use a Good Variac now and set it at 108-112 volts.

I had the amplooked at and more KT66 in the amp and its as good as new. I had the tech check it out and theres nothing wrong with the amp.

So either the tube was just ready to go or the voltage over time got to it. Or both.

It still came on but was at about 15% power. Or less. 

When I would strike the guitar string I could see the 1 Power Tube Arc.

I measured the voltage at the wall a while back and it was over 130 and is regularly 125+.

That's Bad News for 200-375 dollar per 1 tubes. So I bought a 10 amp Variac.

My 69 Dual Showman doesn't seem to be effected as much/any as compared to my Metro GMP45. I guess the 6L6 may be able to take more voltage abuse. But I now run it on the Variac too. But that and my pedals are as much as Ill use on the 10 amps. 38 watts and 100 watts+ pedals. sometimes I just run a 1 x 12 Ported Electrovoice type TS806 cabinet with a Hemp Coned JBL E120 with the Dual Showman. I think 3 amps is good for 100 watts. 

Ill also jump the channels on the Metro and run the Metro into the Fender. Using an 8ohm speaker with the 4 ohm Fender head brings the volume very close to the Metro at 8ohms and they work Great together and are Very Even.

But mostly I run the Metro with the 2 x 1 x 12 ported cabinets with JBL's.

But Ill never run my amps in regular wall voltage again. To many spikes and falls. I will say where I live Ive never tested the voltage at Less that 120v and as high as 136v.

Its also no wonder modern tubes have a higher failure rate.

Take into account they aren't as Robust and then add insult to injury by hitting them with 125-135v and you have a recipe for disaster.


----------



## mickeydg5

I understood that Marty. It is just unfortunate.

I am unfamiliar with black tops. What do those look like, sound like?


----------



## mickeydg5

Metroman
I would say those tubes may have had it hard due to that high of wall voltage. But no tubes will be able to take that for long. I would imagine it wasted the filaments fairly quickly.
You want to protect things especially expensive hard to get items.

As for the grey coating on the inside of the glass I am not sure exactly but expect it was in effort to aid degassing and seal the glass at the plate area.


----------



## Metroman

mickeydg5 said:


> Metroman
> I would say those tubes may have had it hard due to that high of wall voltage. But no tubes will be able to take that for long. I would imagine it wasted the filaments fairly quickly.
> You want to protect things especially expensive hard to get items.
> 
> As for the grey coating on the inside of the glass I am not sure exactly but expect it was in effort to aid degassing and seal the glass at the plate area.



Thank you Sir.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most guys do not know about the relationship of wall voltage and the power transformer.

There are a lot of amps out there with 115-117VAC primaries. Jumping up to 125+ is bringing the B+ and screen voltages up. It's the screen voltage that needs to be considered.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I am unfamiliar with black tops. What do those look like, sound like?



Here is a quicky phone picture. This is an I61 and it sounds like a regular I61. As I said, no one wanted to buy them so they are now in my private stash.






That's not a very good picture. There is a reflection that makes it look like there is some silver flash. There isn't, the top of the tube is black.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Most guys do not know about the relationship of wall voltage and the power transformer.
> 
> There are a lot of amps out there with 115-117VAC primaries. Jumping up to 125+ is bringing the B+ and screen voltages up. It's the screen voltage that needs to be considered.


 I kind of thought through that stuff but here is what I figured.

I guess this is a Metropolous GPM45 or JTM45 kit type.
The transformer is most likely the Heyboer 1202-55 or MM P4550JT type, operating at least 117VAC input.
The amplifier itself is supposed to generate about 400VDC+ in the power supply at the plates.
If everything has positive tolerances that may reach towards the upper 400's maybe 500.

MO-Valve KT66 Design Maximum states 500 volts for both anode and screen. So that is within limits.

The filament however with the same case could reach over 8VDC. That will lower the filament lifespan drastically.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a quicky phone picture. This is an I61 and it sounds like a regular I61. As I said, no one wanted to buy them so they are now in my private stash.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a very good picture. There is a reflection that makes it look like there is some silver flash. There isn't, the top of the tube is black.


Well it is a keeper.
It is a shame the way the mind can work or does not work.

That is just a dark getter deposit.

The color will depend on several things based on manufacture. Water, gas, other impurity contents as well as getter type, placement and amount will determine size and character of flashing. It could change from batch to batch as with all conditions.

All I can say is "People ???".

ADD
Oh I just want to blow some minds. Think about this.
Common sense tells me a lack of or very vaporized flash indicates a better tube due to less contaminates including getter.
That is just a different thought process or angle.


----------



## martin7844

Hello MartyStrat54. Can you get me 4-Sylvania 6CA7 Fat Boy Triple O Getter tubes! Thanks, Marty.


MartyStrat54 said:


> As promised, Sylvania 6CA7 Fat Boy TooB PorN. The first pic's are the Triple O Getter tubes. These tested at 97 and 100. A really nice pair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the Double O's. These tested at 94 and 95.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are rock solid, the real deal. Functional artwork. I have a set of Double O 6CA7's in my Twister and these are 80/82 tubes and they sound like brand new tubes.
> 
> I've read where a 6CA7 can be on it's last leg and as long as the heater is working the tube decays very slowly. That is why many people will get at least three times the service out of NOS tubes. People will pay top dollar for an xf2, even if it tests low, because the tubes can test low and still have over a year left in them. Another thing to consider about NOS power tubes. (Note the welded plates on both versions.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

martin7844 said:


> Hello MartyStrat54. Can you get me 4-Sylvania 6CA7 Fat Boy Triple O Getter tubes! Thanks, Marty.



Did you see post #3555?

A matched quad of (rare) NOS Sylvania triple getter tubes would probably be around $200 per tube.

Used OO Getters go for around $65 each for very strong used tubes. O Getters go for around $55-$60 each for used.

However, matched NOS pairs or quads will command more money.

I'm out of the tube business as of five weeks ago.


----------



## RickyLee

@Metroman: Do you live next to a power distribution plant or power plant itself? I have never heard of that high a mains. I thought mine was high at 123VAC - 125VAC.

Are you in the US?


----------



## mickeydg5

I was actually thinking and should have said that Metroman should call the utility company and have the local stations and transformers looked at to have something done about it.

ANSI C84.1 states that utilization voltage should average a range between 114 to 126 VAC.
Infrequent conditions may include a range between 110 to 127 VAC.

I would definitely complain to the utility company and have the supply tested if you are seeing 130VAC+ at your wall socket.


----------



## Metroman

Yep. Im in Kentucky.

Go figure it would come from Eastern KY.

I do live near a Very Big Power Plant ( Big Sandy Power Plant )a Big hospital 2 actually and what was at 1 time 1 of the largest steel mills in the world. ARMCO STEEL. Also a Very Large Oil Refinery. Ashland Marathon

There is also a Uranium Enrichment plant not to far off also. And there is also a Bunch of other factories that draw large amounts of electricity.

I have 0 knowledge if this can make my wall voltage so high. I wouldn't think so ???

We also tested the voltage at a friends house that lives close to me ( 4 blocks 1200 feet.) and it was 123. Which I believe is still to High for my amp ??


I also have all new electrical runs and 2 x 125 amp boxes. 1 upstairs and 1 down. ect at this house.. Within 10 years or less old.

hasn't seemed to bother my computer or tv sets. Unless the recently gone dead sound card in my computer could be a result of to much voltage over time.

I also called the power company 1 hour ago and they said they've had no complaints but would look into it.

I know 135v can burn your house down.

I never really measured wall voltage before I got the Metro and was told its probably best to use a Variac so I don't fry my tubes.

So I got a Multi Meter and a Variac 2 months ago. The highest previous measurement was 136. and Regularly over 123. Never Low Voltage Readings.


----------



## Metroman

Which of these sets would be considered the Best Match for the Metro GMP45.
Can the Metro be set to work with any of the 3 sets ?? I was told by the guy at Tube World that if I cant adjust the bias to not use the 85ma x 86ma.
I was going to use the Stronger 1's but possibly this is not the case ??

Tested by Tube World on the Maxi Matcher at Vplate=400V, Vscreen=400V, Vgrid=-36V, triode connected

85ma x 86ma

75ma x 76ma

72.7ma x 72.2ma


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I kind of thought through that stuff but here is what I figured.
> 
> I guess this is a Metropolous GPM45 or JTM45 kit type.
> The transformer is most likely the Heyboer 1202-55 or MM P4550JT type, operating at least 117VAC input.
> The amplifier itself is supposed to generate about 400VDC+ in the power supply at the plates.
> If everything has positive tolerances that may reach towards the upper 400's maybe 500.
> 
> MO-Valve KT66 Design Maximum states 500 volts for both anode and screen. So that is within limits.
> 
> The filament however with the same case could reach over 8VDC. That will lower the filament lifespan drastically.



Very good point. I meant to mention this and got distracted when I posted yesterday.


----------



## mickeydg5

Did anyone notice these tubes sold for $242






MartyStrat54 said:


> Oops!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That doesn't surprise me. I guarantee that brown getter lowered the bidding.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, you are right.
It seems the XF2 OO types usually sell from $75 to $100 a piece with price being the higher for matched sets.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sold my last six pairs of xF2 OO's for $175 pair. They all tested stout and two pairs were close enough for a quad, but no one wanted a quad.


----------



## mickeydg5

That was a decent price.

I hope you saved something for yourself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I kept three pairs for myself. I still have over 300 12AX7's. I turn 60 on October 9. I think I have enough to last me.


----------



## Magictwanger

I just lucked into a pair of Mullard xf2's! They bias within .5 ma of each other. Now I'm running a I63 in v1, an Amperex Bugle Boy long plate in v2 and a Sylvania JAN in v3 with 30v elevated cathodes in my Park 1204 (JMP 2204). Have to wait for tomorrow to crank it, sleeping neighbors and all!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That sounds like a really good set of tubes. Love the xF2's.


----------



## Clammy

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sold my last six pairs of xF2 OO's for $175 pair. They all tested stout and two pairs were close enough for a quad, but no one wanted a quad.



Man, I wish I'd known you were selling xf2s. I would have bought them all... especially if you had a matched quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did have two pairs that made a matched quad.

Clammy did you know that this was a sales price? I got out of the tube business about 8 weeks ago.


----------



## Jaymz E

Marty, If you ever decide to sell a few of your personal 12AX7s let me know, I am trying to get a small stash of 12AX7s, EL84s(Quads), EL34s(Quads and pairs), 5AR4/GZ34, and a few EF86s.


----------



## Clammy

MartyStrat54 said:


> I did have two pairs that made a matched quad.
> 
> Clammy did you know that this was a sales price? I got out of the tube business about 8 weeks ago.



Yeah, I know... I was on the road when you had your big blowout, so I missed all the deals.


----------



## RickyLee

My memory is getting worse. This was probably discuseed, but this thread needs a bump anyway.



This question is primarily directed at Marty, but anyone with sound info is welcome to chime in.

I was looking for the TAD EL34's that you always recommend. Are these the ones?

https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/T-EL34B-TAD

They mention B STR, so are these basically just the Ruby EL34BSTR? I have a few sets of the Ruby's and wanted something different. I might just go with a set of GT EL34M's which cost a bit more, but I had these in the past and liked them. If the TAD EL34B's are different than the standard Ruby BSTR's then I will try the TAD's.


----------



## RickyLee

RickyLee said:


> My memory is getting worse. This was probably discuseed, but this thread needs a bump anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> This question is primarily directed at Marty, but anyone with sound info is welcome to chime in.
> 
> I was looking for the TAD EL34's that you always recommend. Are these the ones?
> 
> https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/T-EL34B-TAD
> 
> They mention B STR, so are these basically just the Ruby EL34BSTR? I have a few sets of the Ruby's and wanted something different. I might just go with a set of GT EL34M's which cost a bit more, but I had these in the past and liked them. If the TAD EL34B's are different than the standard Ruby BSTR's then I will try the TAD's.



If you are out there Marty, I found this thread:

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/65681-high-plate-voltage-el34-2.html

So now that that is cleared up, I have another question on the TAD's. What is this Ruby EL34 BHT in relation to the Ruby EL34 BSTR?


----------



## RickyLee

Here is another old thread with some info on the Ruby EL34BHT's.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/12160-jj-e34l-vs-ruby-el34bht.html


----------



## freeknout

RickyLee said:


> If you are out there Marty, I found this thread:
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/65681-high-plate-voltage-el34-2.html
> 
> So now that that is cleared up, I have another question on the TAD's. What is this Ruby EL34 BHT in relation to the Ruby EL34 BSTR?



RickLee I just bought and tested these and have to say they are pretty nice set of PT's. I like them better than the JJ E34L's.

Tube Amp Doctor (TAD) EL34B-STR Factory Matched Vacuum Tube - Mojotone.com

Coincidence or happy accident I just put a NOS pair of EL34 Mullard PT's in and the Bias came out to be almost identical.


----------



## Micky

The TAD's have been my favorite ever since Marty sent me a pair to test...


----------



## johnfv

Micky said:


> The TAD's have been my favorite ever since Marty sent me a pair to test...



 Indeed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And from what I gather the TAD's have good reliability.


----------



## johnfv

I ordered a quad of the TAD EL34s today from Amplified Parts. Just under $80 with free shipping (today is the last day of their 11% off sale - get it while you can  ). These will go in my JVM410 JS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That my friend is a smoking good deal.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is why you should always ask the music store people if they have any old tubes. I found these in a random shop I went in awhile ago. I got this pair of NOS GE 7581A's, three 1960's Sylvania 6L6GC's and an RCA black plate 6L6GC for $50. I haven't been out tube hunting in ages so this was a very cool find.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice.
How do they measure?


----------



## RiverRatt

They both test at 44 on my TV-7. Minimum good is 25. I'm getting a Bogner Alchemist on Sunday and I'm really tempted to hang on to them to use in it but I only paid $25 for the pair and I can't resist a flip like that.


----------



## mickeydg5

Flip them or not, try them out. You may decide to keep them and flip something else.

I have never tried 7581. Have you? How do they sound compared to other 6L6GC or 5881?


----------



## RickyLee

I have some 7581's stashed away. I have not heard them in many years now, but I am remembering them having a big sound. Very punchy.

As for the Bogner Alchemist, let me know how you like it. I have one stashed away as well that I got very cheap and started doing some minor tweaks on it. I love the switchable lower B+ option these amps have.

My only gripe with the amp was the built in delay getting muted when switching channels. I tried modding it to stop that but was not successful.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll try them out but I already listed them. I need the cash more than I need more 6L6's! From what I've read, they are supposed to have a big, smooth sound. They are a 35 watt tube so you should be able to bias them really hot but I tend to like 6L6's biased a little cold. 

Those three Sylvanias tested identical and I know I like their tone. They are the short bottle single getter tubes. I've got several others to play with if those don't work out.

Ricky, I'll definitely give you a review after I try out the Bogner. I usually don't play with delay and use very little reverb so maybe it won't be an issue for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is one of the Sylvanias. Anyone know if AGY is a date code?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

http://www.tubemuseum.org/SearchResults.asp?Cat=30



> Amperex (USA) 111
> Bendix 125
> DuMont 158
> Eimac (Eitel-McCullough, Inc) 162
> Electronic Tube Corp 169
> General Electric Co (USA) 188
> Hytron (CBS-Hytron) 210
> Machlett 231
> RCA (Radio Corp of America) 274
> Raytheon 280
> Superior Tube Co 310
> Sylvania (Hygrade Sylvania Corp) 312
> Tung-Sol 322
> United Electronics 323
> Western Electric 336
> Westinghouse 337
> Zenith Radio Corp (CRT's) 343
> North American Philips Corp 423
> Taylor (aka Cetron-Taylor) 713
> Lewis & Kaufman 738
> National Electronics (also Cetron) 749
> Penta Laboratories 771
> Vacuum Tube Products 781
> Varian Associates 809
> Litton Industries 879
> Electrons, Inc 935
> 
> USA (RETMA) system
> 
> First number: filament voltage
> 0 Cold cathode (e.g. voltage regulator tube).
> 1 0.1 - 2.0
> 2 2.1 - 2.9
> 3 3.0 - 3.9
> n n.0 - n.9
> 
> Letter or letters: sequence code
> One or two letters to indicate the sequence code. When the single character codes were used up, double character codes were introduced.
> Note that U - Z generally (but not always) as the only character, or last character, are used for rectifiers
> 
> Final number: Element count
> The number of elements in the tube, the filament counting as 1. For example, the 6SN7 has two cathodes, two grids, two plates, and a filament.
> 
> Additional letters:
> A Controlled heater warmup time, although can also be used to denote increased ratings or performance over and above the non-A model.
> B Improved ratings/performance.
> C Ditto.
> G Glass bulb.
> GT Glass tubular.
> W Ruggedised version.
> X Low loss ceramic base.
> Y Low loss phenolic base.
> 
> Examples:
> 6SN7GT: Filament rating is between 6.0 - 6.9V, SN=sequence code, 7 elements, glass tubular envelope.
> 6V6GTY: Filament rating is between 6.0 - 6.9V, V=sequence code, 6 elements, glass tubular envelope, low loss phenolic base.
> 12AY7: Filament rating is between 12.0 - 12.9V, AY=sequence code, 7 elements.
> 
> What does J.H.S. and J.A.N. mean?
> 
> Sylvania was a major manufacturer of Military tubes and selected a 3 digit lettering system to designate Sylvania products. One system prefixes a three-digit number with the letters "VT", presumably meaning "Vacuum Tube". Other systems prefix the number with the letters JHS or JAN. J.A.N. is believed to stand for Joint Army Navy, where as, J.H.S. sometimes remains a mystery, and is commonly thought to just signify Sylvania product.
> 
> The numbers following these prefixes can be special four-digit numbers, or domestic two- or three- digit numbers or simply the domestic North American RETMA numbering system. Like the British military system, these have many direct equivalents in the civilian types. Confusingly, the British also had two entirely different VT nomenclatures, one used by the Royal Air Force and the other used by the General Post Office, responsible for post and telecommunications at the time, where it may have stood for Valve, Telephone; none of these schemes corresponded in any way with each other. It was introduced during the Second World War to rationalise the previous nomenclatures maintained separately by the War Office/Ministry of Supply, Admiralty and Air Ministry/Ministry of Aircraft Production on behalf of the three armed services for CRTs, receiving and transmitting valves used in army equipments.
> 
> I personally have researched this in the past, and have come up with the theory that JHS was chosen by Sylvania meaning Joint Havells Sylvania or J.H.S.
> 
> Havells Sylvania is an international designer and manufacturer of lighting products. It has plants throughout Europe, Asia, North Africa and Central and South America, and is one of the few lighting companies that produces both lamps and lighting fixtures. It is owned by Havells.Founded in the early 1900s as a business that renewed burned-out light bulbs, Sylvania and its predecessor companies ultimately began producing new lamps and then vacuum tubes for the radio industry.
> 
> Mark Kawecki
> tubemuseum
> 
> MEANINGLESS CODES by TUBE REMARKETERS:
> 
> Both Tung-Sol and RCA utilized the "Stop-Sign" logo [5751] in brackets. The "hole" in the top mica identifies these USA made tubes from the TUNG-SOL factory in Newark, New Jersey, USA in the 1950's.
> 
> THE UNITED-ELECTRIC RELABEL CODE 88-37 IS MEANINGLESS AS THEY SIMPLY RELABELED NEW OLD STOCK TUBES FROM TUNG-SOL. RCA, SYLVANIA, AND OTHERS. NO ONE MADE D-GETTER OR SQUARE-GETTER TUBES IN 1988! AND UNITED-ELECTRONICS WAS OUT OF BUSINESS IN 1988! SO 88-37 WAS UNITED-ELECTRONICS INTERNAL NUMBERING SYSTEM AND DID NOT SIGNIFY ANY MANUFACTURING DATE.
> 
> Especially, during the 1950's war effort, it was a common practice for USA factories to source tubes from each other and re-label them. When a government requirement for CV4017 tube specification came in a Request For Proposal (RFP) to the 4 major USA tube factories they all worked together to source from one another to fill the orders. This is why we see so many tubes made by Tung-Sol labeled as RCA, RCA made tubes labeled Sylvania, Sylvania made tubes labeled GE ... and so on, Sylvania, RCA, Tung-Sol and everyone else at some time relabeled tubes! This is why we have to LOOK AT THE ORIGINAL FACTORY CODES IF PRESENT (NOT THE UNITED ELECTRONICS RELABEL CODE),, and identify the real tube manufacturer by codes, inner construction, shape of the tip, and shape of the getter ring to determine the real origin of the tubes.
> 
> UNITED (United Electrics Company, Newark, N.J., USA) was a company that simply re-labeled Tung-Sol, RCA, Sylvania, and GE USA made tubes for resale.
> All tubes have Tung-Sol acid codes shown as in above picture on top and Made in USA in 1960. In the actual pair above you can see "60 - 40" code = "1960 - 40th week" and "60 - 33" code = "1960 - 33rd week" TUNG-SOL USA
> 
> Made in USA in 1964. In the actual pair you can see "64 - 02" code = "1964 - 2nd week" and "65 - 20" code = "1965 - 20th week" TUNG-SOL USA



Although, looking around, I saw a bunch of AHY & AGU, which aren't talked about in that...


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't see where any of that info applies to the date code. It's great info for decoding tube numbers though.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I don't know if you can get anything from this:

Transmitting vacuum tube triodes and pentodes

It has the other codes listed as date codes, but I don't see anything decrypting them...


----------



## RiverRatt

From what I can find, I'm chasing a white elephant. Everybody seems to agree that three-letter Sylvania codes exist, but nobody has a clue what they mean. The frequency of which this particular tube turns up in Sears/Silvertone gear makes me fairly certain that it is a early to mid-1960's design. Maybe we can break the code and be famous.


----------



## RickyLee

I know that you will enjoy the Clean channel on that Bogner. That channel alone can get many varied tones. 

The Dirt channel is interesting and takes a bit of fiddling to dial in. It can do a few varied tones as well.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I'd bet on '60s too...

6L6 Tubes in Stock

about ½ way down (video) & further. He mentions Sylvania as being 1960's then mentions Philips/Sylvania from late '60s to 70s... (down in the tubes for sale)



> 6L6GC Sylvania made​ New Old Stock original box. These 1960s tubes will sound great in your Fender amp or home hi-fi! Sylvania labels along with some made for RCA, some OEM labels, some unlabeled. These have been amp tested in addition to testing for plate current and Gm. Probably the best price/performance tube of any NOS 6L6 tube you will find anywhere!MATCHED PAIRS JUST $99.00!​ $49.00​ In Stock
> ​ 6L6GC Sylvania/Philips made​ Used tested good, some original Fender amp stock, white box. These 1960s and early 1970s tubes will sound great in your Fender amp or home hi-fi! Some made for Fender, some OEM labels, some unlabeled. These have been amp tested in addition to testing for plate current and Gm, all test strong. Probably the best price/performance tube of any 6L6 tube you will find anywhere!MATCHED PAIRS JUST $50.00!​ $25.00​ 2 single tubes​


----------



## mickeydg5

Maybe AGY is a date code. I have never found what is stands for or indicates. If it follows the same system as RCA then those date codes could give a clue. I cannot even find the RCA date code information on the internet any longer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 7581's are a close variation of a 7027. The 7581 has the same pin out (7AC) as the 6L6 and the 7027 uses an 8HY pin out. Both are 35 watt tubes and sound very similar to a 6L6GC.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never could find out anything about those three letter Sylvie codes.

AGY = A Good Year?


----------



## RiverRatt

Since it seems that the codes all start with the letter A, maybe the next two letters are the same as the old 2-letter code?


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, that Bogner f'in rocks! I didn't get much time with it yet but so far I'm more than happy with it. It will definitely cover a lot of bases. Somebody loaded it up with EH12AX7's which are high on my uncool list. A couple of Mullard I63's made a huge difference. I didn't get a chance to swap out the Ruby 6L6's yet. I also need a speaker swap - somebody put a Fender/Eminence in it. I have a G12T-100 that I'm going to try.

Mine doesn't have the channel switching problem you described. The effects stay constant no matter what.


----------



## RickyLee

Glad to hear you like the Bogner Alan.

Regarding the delay muting, try this for me. See if the decay or delay trails/echos get muted when you switch from channel to channel. That is what mine is doing. The decay shuts off when switching from channel to channel. What I mean by shut off is, the delay is trailing until you switch channels. You have to hit a new note for the delay to continue. Every other person with this amp that I contacted had the same issue. 

I tried numerous things to remedy this even hoping to solve it bypassing one of the switching circuits. If I can remember correctly, it was in the FX processor where the muting was happening. I have not messed with this amp in a long time. I started modding the FX loop circuit to be more user friendly as I figured I would just go with an external delay in the loop if I needed one. 

I had found something odd with the loop when I was looking at the schematic. I need to look into all this again as it was quite some time ago and I am not remembering 100% what I did exactly. I am thinking I modified the bias circuit to be closer to 65% when switching over to the low power setting as well. When you switch to low power, the bias idle goes extremely cold on its setting. I also stuck some Tung Sol 5881's in there if I am remembering correctly.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have wondered about using 5881's in it. The B+ is supposed to be pretty low in that amp even on the 40w setting.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, I put those Sylvanias in and checked the plate voltage which turned out to be 428VDC. The bias was running at 59mv! I got it down to 45mv and it sounds lots better. I'm pretty happy with it as-is. I put a G12T100 in it and it seemed to tighten up the lows. The Mercury channel reminds me a lot of my old DSL50 but the higher gain settings sound better.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Ricky, I put those Sylvanias in and checked the plate voltage which turned out to be 428VDC. The bias was running at 59mv! I got it down to 45mv and it sounds lots better. I'm pretty happy with it as-is. I put a G12T100 in it and it seemed to tighten up the lows. The Mercury channel reminds me a lot of my old DSL50 but the higher gain settings sound better.


 Just wondering how did you bias the Alchemist? Did you use the test points?

Did the meter autorange?


----------



## RiverRatt

I grounded my meter to the mains ground and used the test points. I just set the meter (Fluke 115) to VDC and read everything from there. Since Bogner used 10 ohm resistors on the test points, the decimal was in the wrong place anyway so I didn't see any point in switching to the mV setting and reading 450mV. 

I've read cryptic posts from Line6/Bogner tech support that said biasing the Alchemist was not just simply a matter of reading DC millivolts. I'm thinking that like the DSL you're reading screen voltage too, so when you subtract that I should be a little on the cool side which is where I wanted to be. Whichever, it is sounding really nice.

I'm really liking the 20W mode, which is supposed to drop the B+ down to around 325v. It kinda gives it an early EVH brown sound tone.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I remember the 10R for bias. The manual kind of indicated a bias of 350mV at what I would suspect 425VDC.
That is why I asked.

Make sure the 10R resistors read 10 ohms and are showing 450mV when both cold and hot.
If they creep up that may be the resistors.


----------



## RiverRatt

350mV sounds really cold. I didn't try it any lower since it was sounding so good. It's really dynamic and warm sounding. I'm going to play with it like this for a day or two and then maybe check it again but I'm OK with it as-is. If I open it back up I'll check the resistors.

Is there any problem with using chassis ground instead of the center test pin? I read someone saying that you should use the test pin as it has maybe 1/2 ohm more resistance than chassis ground and that the reading will be off if you don't use it. Really???


----------



## mickeydg5

I get what you are saying. I had thought you could not get it below 45mA. You stopped there.
Those 6L6GC have no problem as long as the rest of the amplifier is good for it which I suspect it should be. Do not worry about the resistors.

Chassis ground to the center pin should be zero ohms. If not it could make a small difference. Try it both ways next time. You may or may not read a difference.


----------



## RickyLee

@Alan: How cold is the bias on the low wattage setting? My bias went to something like 30% - 40% dissipation with it set at aprox 65% at the high wattage setting.

Did you verify my test on the delay muting or delay trails getting stopped when the channel is switched? 

These smaller amps are cool. I need to dig my Alchemist out and try it with this project I am gigging with. I used my Artist 30 4203 last night at a small bar and it rocked the joint.


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't check the bias on the low setting. Since my 7581A pair doesn't look like it's going to sell for what I wanted I may just keep 'em or at least put them in the Alchemist for a trial run. I'm starting to get a better feel for the amp and I know how good it's sounding with the Sylvanias. I want to try a few things with it but if I don't notice a big difference I'll probably keep it like it is. I haven't really noticed the delay thing... I didn't get a footswitch with i and the delay has already done it's thing by the time I can flip the toggle switch. Seems like I read somewhere that they intentionally kill the signal to keep from getting some nasty sounds when you switch channels.

I know what you mean about smaller amps. I only have a couple of combos now and one lone Mesa 4x12 that is doing nothing except storing my extra speakers. I wish I still had my old JTM610.


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright... I finally got the house to myself and got to crank it up. That G12T100 is a badass speaker! I don't think I ever tried one in a combo amp. I still haven't played with the bias and I'm more convinced now that I don't need to. Everything sounds great!


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, I stuck a G12T100 in my Marshall Studio 15 with great results.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just in case anybody comes looking for the info, I've tried biasing the tubes in my Alchemist over the whole range from the recommended 35mV (which works out to +/- 50%) up to 70%, and the sweet spot is definitely 65%. That's with those 1960s Sylvania 6L6GC's that I posted earlier and a plate voltage of around 429VDC. 

Also, I was questioning whether to use chassis ground or the center test pin when biasing. There is a 2 ohm difference from the test pin to chassis ground which made maybe a .5mV difference in the readings.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Just in case anybody comes looking for the info, I've tried biasing the tubes in my Alchemist over the whole range from the recommended 35mV (which works out to +/- 50%) up to 70%, and the sweet spot is definitely 65%. That's with those 1960s Sylvania 6L6GC's that I posted earlier and a plate voltage of around 429VDC.
> 
> Also, I was questioning whether to use chassis ground or the center test pin when biasing. There is a 2 ohm difference from the test pin to chassis ground which made maybe a .5mV difference in the readings.


 Honestly from the description of the way that thing is setup I would measure from power tubes pin #8 to where the two 10R cathode resistors attach to chassis ground.
That would be the most accurate.


----------



## iron broadsword

Anybody ever try a TAD EL84-STR in their Class 5? What a rippin' tube! I bought it a long time ago and didn't like it when I tested it at first, which was attenuated to very low volume.. but now I am finding that this blows the JJ out of the water. No more harshness, just tight warm creamy and juicy. I use a JJ in v1 and a Shuguang in V2 (like it comes stock) but now with the TAD it is absolutely perfect.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is a nice-looking set of tubes! It appears to be a quad of Mullard EL84's and a GZ34 rectifier. since Mullard was a big supplier to Heath, I assume that there are a few nice ECC83 surprises in there, too.

shopgoodwill.com - #19089415 - 1960s Heathkit Daystrom Tube Amplifier ~Powers On - 12/14/2014 5:15:00 PM


----------



## mickeydg5

It is now at $251.
Are you bidding?


----------



## RiverRatt

I wish... they left me behind long ago, and besides all I know about it is that it "powers on" and that the output transformers may be fried!


----------



## mickeydg5

Do you think they left it on to warm up good and make sure everything stays working -
without speakers hooked up?

Nah, come on now.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

What can you tell me about this unit ??
In the new year i was thinking of getting one of these , but are they worth it , and is it a good piece ?



Orange VT1000


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have heard some negative comments about this tester. Keep in mind that this unit does not generate real world plate voltage. Some tubes will only show a problem once a certain voltage is exceeded. These tube may "pass" on this tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a question about an 83 rectifier tube: can it lose the getter flash and still be a good tube? It's the one from my TV-7 tester so I can't really test it to see if it's bad. I wish I hadn't sold my Hickok.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not think getter flash always tells a tale of a bad tube. But some do.

The question is does your tester have appropriate voltages? Does it calibrate correctly?

It helps to be able to test them.  

You got me thinking so I had to do some searches. I did not remember flash or much of it on any 83. So I noticed some do not have much of anything and some have more of a film looking residue but not shiny chrome flash.

What does yours look like?


----------



## RiverRatt

Like that, a film residue-looking spot where the getter flash was. I wondered if it being a mercury vapor tube had anything to do with it.

My tester is apart right now. The insulation was cracking and flaking off the mains cable internally and I was getting weird stuff, like almost zero deflection on the line test but normal mutual conductance readings on the meter when testing a tube. I'm going to replace the cable and put the rectifier back in and see what happens. I accidentally left it on for a week and I'm hoping that's all the damage it did.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well there is no shiny flash on those. It seems normal by your description.

But leaving the unit ON for a weak, oh or ugh. Maybe it just stayed hot for a while, transformer area. Zero at line test does not sound good but it could be a contact, a solder joint or a component in line for that circuit. I do not remember which tester you have but I believe the 83 is out of circuit until an operation is commenced. I hope all is ok with it.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have heard some negative comments about this tester. Keep in mind that this unit does not generate real world plate voltage. Some tubes will only show a problem once a certain voltage is exceeded. These tube may "pass" on this tester.





Good to know , Thanks Marty !!

Is there an older School tube tester thats worth owning for just simple home use ? Every time i take some tubes in to my local music store to have them checked , it costs me $20 - $25 to check 4 power tubes , i don't know if thats a good or bad deal ?  I like the idea of having my own , and doing it yourself !


Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated !


----------



## MartyStrat54

HOLY CARP!!! $25 to check four tubes. Hell I'm in the wrong business.

That's grossly ridiculous. What a rip off.

Hell now I'm getting mad!

As far as old school testers they are getting harder to find and the prices are going up. A good Hickok or B&K transconductance tester is going to be $300 on up. I saw an extremely nice B&K 707 on EBAY. He was asking $420, but it hasn't sold. That is actually a bargain as it has been completely refurbished and calibrated. This service can cost over $100.

It does you no good to buy a cheap emissions tester. These run around $80. They are usually erratic when testing a tube and are no more than a simple good/bad test. I've known guys who sell tubes that use these and all of their tubes always test the same. One guy told me he tested 40 tubes and they all tested exactly the same. There is no way forty 12AX7's are all going to test the same.

I think that Orange tester is still around $500. I've seen used one's on EBAY with an asking price of $350. For that sort of dough you can get a good vintage tester.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> HOLY CARP!!! $25 to check four tubes. Hell I'm in the wrong business.
> 
> That's grossly ridiculous. What a rip off.
> 
> Hell now I'm getting mad!
> 
> As far as old school testers they are getting harder to find and the prices are going up. A good Hickok or B&K transconductance tester is going to be $300 on up. I saw an extremely nice B&K 707 on EBAY. He was asking $420, but it hasn't sold. That is actually a bargain as it has been completely refurbished and calibrated. This service can cost over $100.
> 
> It does you no good to buy a cheap emissions tester. These run around $80. They are usually erratic when testing a tube and are no more than a simple good/bad test. I've known guys who sell tubes that use these and all of their tubes always test the same. One guy told me he tested 40 tubes and they all tested exactly the same. There is no way forty 12AX7's are all going to test the same.
> 
> I think that Orange tester is still around $500. I've seen used one's on EBAY with an asking price of $350. For that sort of dough you can get a good vintage tester.



Yes , this is the problem , i don't know enough about who or what makes a good vintage tester , i do know that they are still around , and if you get a good one , they are a great tool to have in one's arsenal etc . I would almost have to enlist the help of someone who knows these things well , and pay them a fee to find me one ... hint hint  Plus , i have no idea how to run one , but i'm assuming they can't be that tough , i have run all kinds of automotive based scanners , scopes , test equipment over the years , so i'm not opposed to learning . But yeah $25 to test 4 tubes , and i'm not bull shitting , i just paid it and let it be .... thats almost the price of one new current production 6L6GC tube ! ah what the hell do i know eh ??


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> HOLY CARP!!! $25 to check four tubes. Hell I'm in the wrong business.
> 
> That's grossly ridiculous. What a rip off.
> 
> Hell now I'm getting mad!
> 
> As far as old school testers they are getting harder to find and the prices are going up. A good Hickok or B&K transconductance tester is going to be $300 on up. I saw an extremely nice B&K 707 on EBAY. He was asking $420, but it hasn't sold. That is actually a bargain as it has been completely refurbished and calibrated. This service can cost over $100.
> 
> It does you no good to buy a cheap emissions tester. These run around $80. They are usually erratic when testing a tube and are no more than a simple good/bad test. I've known guys who sell tubes that use these and all of their tubes always test the same. One guy told me he tested 40 tubes and they all tested exactly the same. There is no way forty 12AX7's are all going to test the same.
> 
> I think that Orange tester is still around $500. I've seen used one's on EBAY with an asking price of $350. For that sort of dough you can get a good vintage tester.






Is this the one you were talking about ??

B K 707 Tube Tester Cleaned Serviced AND Calibrated | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

No that is a different one.


----------



## RiverRatt

Mickey, apparently the 83 rectifier is fine. But, as I seem to have Murphy riding on my shoulder, I blew the #81 fuse/lamp when I powered the tester up after installing the new mains cable. For some strange reason I had left the line adjust control at full open. Since no place around here has a #81 lamp, I went to an auto parts store and found a #63 and thought I'd try it. 

Now everything powers up, the mutual conductance test works, and I'm getting more deflection on the line test. Before, it just moved up about 5 ticks on the scale and stopped no matter what the line voltage was set at. Now it responds to the line adjust, from around 5 at the lowest to around 25 at the highest. I'm thinking if I can find a proper #81 lamp it might go back to normal. That old mains cable was bare wire on bare wire. It's a wonder it worked at all.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Mickey, apparently the 83 rectifier is fine. But, as I seem to have Murphy riding on my shoulder, I blew the #81 fuse/lamp when I powered the tester up after installing the new mains cable. For some strange reason I had left the line adjust control at full open. Since no place around here has a #81 lamp, I went to an auto parts store and found a #63 and thought I'd try it.
> 
> Now everything powers up, the mutual conductance test works, and I'm getting more deflection on the line test. Before, it just moved up about 5 ticks on the scale and stopped no matter what the line voltage was set at. Now it responds to the line adjust, from around 5 at the lowest to around 25 at the highest. I'm thinking if I can find a proper #81 lamp it might go back to normal. That old mains cable was bare wire on bare wire. It's a wonder it worked at all.


 You have to have the correct bulb/lamp. Each has a specific resistance and will drop voltage and limit current.
That affects the AC voltage at the primary which affects well, you know the rest.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, but I'm lazy and in need of stimulating conversation. So...

I got a pair of THD Yellow Jackets a few days ago. I'm not even sure which model they are. The bases are red (all I can find pictures of are yellow), and it says they replace all the common octal power tubes.

I want to try them in my amp, but I'd like to hear what you guys think about them before I take the plunge. I'm running two 6L6GC's with around 430vdc on the plates.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, but I'm lazy and in need of stimulating conversation. So...
> 
> I got a pair of THD Yellow Jackets a few days ago. I'm not even sure which model they are. The bases are red (all I can find pictures of are yellow), and it says they replace all the common octal power tubes.
> 
> I want to try them in my amp, but I'd like to hear what you guys think about them before I take the plunge. I'm running two 6L6GC's with around 430vdc on the plates.



I am wondering if you got one of the models that runs the power valve in triode mode?

Anyway, I have a few sets of the very old ones, yellow bases. The ones I have DO NOT lower plate or screen voltage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those are for low output tubes that already run close to EL84 specs, right?


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Those are for low output tubes that already run close to EL84 specs, right?



Are you referring to the triode version Yellow Jackets, or just the Yellow Jackets in general?

The old Yellow Jackets I have are from around '05 or so. They were running EL84's in place of EL34 valves. I had a TSL122 back then that I was using these adapters on. I knew nothing about the innards of amps, plate voltage much less biasing back then. I bought into the sales pitch of dropping the volume and pushing the amp harder at a lower volume. 

Basically, I was running the JJ EL84's that came with these YJ adapters at about 480V on the plates/screens LOL.


----------



## RiverRatt

My bad. I went back and read the descriptions again and the ones I was talking about are for cathode biased amps only.

Man, that is asking a lot from those little EL84's. I'll bet they didn't last very long at all.

I just saw that they now have a YJNOS model that uses a NOS 6AQ5. I'd like to try those. The 6AQ5 has more of a 6V6 tone.


----------



## RickyLee

I know people complain about JJ valves, but those EL84's as well as their 6V6 can take a severe beating and like it. I never had one fail running in that TSL122 as well as a few other amp models with similar running Avoltage.


----------



## Jaymz E

Is the Jackson 648 a good tube tester? I have a B&K 600 emissions tester, but I want to be able to match power tubes (EL34/EL84) and check both sections on 12AX7s. What old testers run the voltage close to what an amp uses?


----------



## mickeydg5

For some Jackson 648 information.

Tales From The Tone Lounge; The Idiot's Guide To TubeTesters!


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, I tried the Yellow Jackets in the Bogner Alchemist and they sounded really nice on the 20W setting - definitely in Vox territory. On the 40W setting they were a little thin sounding. There wasn't really a true clean tone either way. 

It's not something I'd want to use regularly, at least not in this amp. Since it gets its distortion in the preamp, high gain paired with the EL84 breakup wasn't a good thing. I would like to try them in a Fender Deluxe or Super sometime.


----------



## Mr New Heart

Hi all. 
TSL100 - currently running 2 power tubes GT-EL34-M -1(grit)
(like them more than the Svetlanas that came with it used)
1936 cab with GreenBacks
I play clean and blues and 1/2 way raw. But can still get metal if I need it. 
I also posted in the preamp tube thread. 

I'm not able to measure plate volts. I'm a newb and unsure and the 3 prong pin socket is loose and seemingly not even hooked up.
But when I got it the bias measured like this:
#1=39.4 #2=63.6 #3=37.9 #4=41.8

So I biased between 40-41 and thought it has to be way better than what it was when I got it. I was able to get the EL34 Svetlanas biased up ok at 41.3 and that is where they seemed to sound good and stay.

Just got pair of GT-EL34-M they biased at 42.2 and sounded good. 
Now comparing the GT-EL34-M vs the EL34 Svetlanas. I do like the GT's better. GT's do seem to have small breakup when pushed hard. GT's sound more open and fuller range vs the Svetlanas that seem hard and industrial but in a good stable way. 

41.3 - When I biased the Svetlanas the tone range(warmth) was minimal thru 37-44. Only a small change. But I did land on a sweet spot.

42.2 - When I biased the GT's the tone range(warmth) seemed to have a big adjustment. It seemed that under 41, bass was less and sounding terribly thin. So up to the 42 range and sounded good.

These are just my opinions and I am not even an expert.

So a ?'
I purchased a pair of Electro-Harminix 6CA7 EH. Those fatties look sexy.
Anyways They would not bias below 45-46. I think anything over 45 is the danger range from the reading I have done. So I pulled them out, I don't want to damage anything. What should I do. Maybe my TSL don't like fatties?

Anyways thanx for letting me share my opinions mixed with facts of course..


----------



## RiverRatt

Mr New Heart said:


> So a ?'
> I purchased a pair of Electro-Harminix 6CA7 EH. Those fatties look sexy.
> Anyways They would not bias below 45-46. I think anything over 45 is the danger range from the reading I have done. So I pulled them out, I don't want to damage anything. What should I do. Maybe my TSL don't like fatties?
> 
> Anyways thanx for letting me share my opinions mixed with facts of course..



That sounds too hot. You need to know the plate voltage your amp is running to be sure though. If you aren't comfortable working in an amp then you might want to let a tech help you out. You will be in contact with >400VDC. 

If you don't want to do the math, the Weber Bias Calculator will give you 70% of max dissipation and all you need to know is the plate voltage and tube type. Your Marshall is running Class AB which is the default setting IIRC.

Weber Bias Calculator


----------



## mickeydg5

NewHeart, first off hello.

How are you measuring bias?
Are you measuring bias at the TSL's CON2 molex connector pins?

That is definitely not hot if two tubes are being measured.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oooooh, forgot about that. I always think of my old DSL50 with one tube per test pin.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Is it normal to have approx 480 vdc at the plates of my 6100 .... ?
Is that not considered pretty high ?


----------



## Mikeitloud

I just got a new Marshall, and took the back cover off to see the Power tubes, turns out there are 4 Mesa EL34's and an a single Groove Tube ecc83, The amp sounds great! I love it, my question is, does Marshall use there own brand of stock tubes or are they rebranded? And if so, what would the actual brand be? I guess the same would apply with Mesa? Are the Mesa tubes in my amp made by Mesa?


----------



## Mr New Heart

TSL100 - currently running 2 power tubes GT-EL34-M -1(grit)
I'm not able to measure plate volts. I'm a newb and unsure and the 3 prong pin socket is loose and seemingly not even hooked up. Zero readings.
I used the Dual Bias Tester from amp-head.com.

I sounds like I should take it in and have the 3 prong plug fixed and perhaps get a plate reading.


----------



## mickeydg5

Here is your bias problem with that TSL100.
The bias range is too low due to the setting resistors in the circuit.
You may lower R77 or raise R68 value to achieve the correct range.

Refer to post #76 and on in this thread.
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/76049-tsl100-choke-hum-3.html#post1248448


----------



## Mr New Heart

mickeydg5 said:


> Refer to post #76 and on in this thread.
> http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/76049-tsl100-choke-hum-3.html#post1248448



OK TY mickeydg5


----------



## jimmyjames

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/77317-jj-6v6s-bias-dsl15h.html Posted here also, hope someone can confirm this please.


----------



## Petri358

I'm looking for a sextet of 6550 for my 2000 Lead.
I have lined up:

- TAD-Tubes 6550A-STR (GE 6550A replica)
- JJ 6550
- TungSol 6550
- S-Logo - Replica of 6550C Svetlana SED=C=Logo

What do you think?
Others?
Opinions?


----------



## Jaymz E

^ Out of the 6550s listed I would go with the TAD 6550.


----------



## yladrd61

jaymz elas said:


> ^ Out of the 6550s listed I would go with the TAD 6550.



I have the TADs in my 1980 2203 I like them a lot.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was going through some of my junky tubes and was researching a 6HB6 that looks promising. It's a beam pentode that was described as an EL84 on steroids. One guy was talking about running a pair in a modified Marshall 18 watt circuit with 425v on the plates and 30w output!

It's more gainy than an EL84 too. I'm thinking about trying a little class A amp with it. It sounds pretty easy to adapt and they are dirt cheap. 

I'm not entirely sure what they mean about g3 being at 0v in reference to the cathode? I know that in an EL84 g3 is tied to the cathode internally. Could g3 in the 6HB6 be tied to the cathode with a zener diode of the appropriate voltage to drop it down close to zero or am I way off?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I was going through some of my junky tubes and was researching a 6HB6 that looks promising. It's a beam pentode that was described as an EL84 on steroids. One guy was talking about running a pair in a modified Marshall 18 watt circuit with 425v on the plates and 30w output!
> 
> It's more gainy than an EL84 too. I'm thinking about trying a little class A amp with it. It sounds pretty easy to adapt and they are dirt cheap.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what they mean about g3 being at 0v in reference to the cathode? I know that in an EL84 g3 is tied to the cathode internally. Could g3 in the 6HB6 be tied to the cathode with a zener diode of the appropriate voltage to drop it down close to zero or am I way off?


It has a higher amplification factor. Watch the pinout, being different from 6BQ5/EL84.
Grid #3 can be connected to the cathode or 0V point (ground).


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it has a higher amplification factor, lower plate resistance, and higher mU. The pinout isn't too different; the screen grid is pin 6 or 8 instead of 9, and the cathode is pin 1 with grid 3 on pin 3. I think everything else will work as-is.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I was going through some of my junky tubes and was researching a 6HB6 that looks promising. It's a beam pentode that was described as an EL84 on steroids. One guy was talking about running a pair in a modified Marshall 18 watt circuit with 425v on the plates and 30w output!
> 
> It's more gainy than an EL84 too. I'm thinking about trying a little class A amp with it. It sounds pretty easy to adapt and they are dirt cheap.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure what they mean about g3 being at 0v in reference to the cathode? I know that in an EL84 g3 is tied to the cathode internally. Could g3 in the 6HB6 be tied to the cathode with a zener diode of the appropriate voltage to drop it down close to zero or am I way off?



This sounds very cool indeed. I am considering a low wattage amp build as well using some of the higher gain and channel switching ideas I have been tinkering on.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I have a couple of ideas too. I have a Hammond AO-43 amp that is the perfect donor for an 18 watt build. I'm stuck between a Marshall 1974 design or a Matchless Spitfire or Lightning. Watts Tube Audio sells the Matchless boards assembled for around $130. I'm leaning toward the Matchless but I can't decide which. Either way should be easy to adapt the 6HB6 to.

I misread the part about the g3 bias. It's datasheet values are with g3 at zero. Since it's a vertical deflector tube it really doesn't have any audio ratings. The OP was saying that if you put a positive bias of +12 to +32 volts on g3 that it reduces the high screen current on g2 and sends a lot more current to the plate. If I understand correctly, it's just a matter of dialing in the g3 bias until you hit the lowest screen current and the tube performs like an ordinary output pentode. 

It sounds like a really cool tube to play around with. This is what tubelab was saying about it on diyaudio.com:

*The 6HB6 works pretty good in a 18 watt Marshall inspired circuit. Their extra gain lowers the drive requirements so overdrive is abundant. Bias requirements are far less, maybe 10 to 15 volts negative on the grids. Cathode bias works good. They need voltage. 300 volts is OK more is better. I had a setup running at 420+ plate and 325 screen and it screamed to almost 30 watts into 6600 ohms.*


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, if you want to go really low watt I have a bunch of 5672 and 5676 pentodes that work well as audio tubes. There's a schematic for a penta-boost pedal on the 'net that uses the 5672. IIRC it uses a 12v power supply and uses an LM317 for the 1.5v heaters.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Ricky, if you want to go really low watt I have a bunch of 5672 and 5676 pentodes that work well as audio tubes. There's a schematic for a penta-boost pedal on the 'net that uses the 5672. IIRC it uses a 12v power supply and uses an LM317 for the 1.5v heaters.



I will have to check that out. It sounds very cool indeed.

I might just have two too many projects going on right now LOL. I just made a simple change to one of the amp projects, adding in a treble peak cap. Put the amp back together, pop in two NOS Sylvania 12AX7 in the first two positions and the amp started swelling in and out on one of the channels LOL. It was a bit late so will have to check those tubes tomorrow then possibly open it back up. Plan on taking it for a Saturday gig.


----------



## RiverRatt

"PentaBoost" - 12 volt Pentode Booster using Submini 5672 tube


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I can call my Epi Valve Jr/5F2-A conversion done. Terry helped me out getting the B+ down. I used a 6AQ5 instead of a 6V6 and it sounded great but it was running 360VDC on the plates. The heaters were cooking a 7.2v too. I ended up using a couple of .5R resistors and got the heaters down to 6.4v. I used a couple of 36v 5w zener diodes between the rectifier and the reservoir cap and got the B+ down to 287vdc. 

The amp sounds really good now and the little 6AQ5 is purring right along. I had been planning on leaving the chassis untouched but I added a mini toggle on the back to kill the negative feedback. The amp is way more aggressive without NFB but it works well for cleans.

Here is the innards with the zeners in place. I used a splicer in the middle for a heat sink. The big-ass 7.5k resistor ended up in there after I fried the original.


----------



## Micky

Marty and Alan will like these:











They had something for everyone at the hamfest:


----------



## RiverRatt

Were there any good audio tubes? You have to tell us what you came away with.

I like that first one. It looks like a water pipe.


----------



## MarshallDog

Wonder how the JJ EL34-II will sound. Saw them on The Tube Store website. They got good reviews.

www.thetubestore.com - JJ EL34-II Audio Tubes


----------



## mickeydg5

That kind of seems more like a KT77 but in a different setup.
I wonder how they compare.


----------



## iron broadsword

Pretty sure I set my bias too cold in my JCM900 w/ EL34's.. it sounds... muted? Is that normal? Plate Voltage is 476 and set bias for about 29mA - 30mA. Seemed to sound good when I set it but played it yesterday and it was kinda dull. Gonna try re-biasing, but figured I'd better check in with people who know more about this than me.

Tubes are brand new Svet's.


----------



## solarburn

iron broadsword said:


> Pretty sure I set my bias too cold in my JCM900 w/ EL34's.. it sounds... muted? Is that normal? Plate Voltage is 476 and set bias for about 29mA - 30mA. Seemed to sound good when I set it but played it yesterday and it was kinda dull. Gonna try re-biasing, but figured I'd better check in with people who know more about this than me.
> 
> Tubes are brand new Svet's.



Try 34-38mv range. I like mine a bit cool. If it was me I'd start with 36mv and then go up or down to taste/feel.

There are better 34's compared to the SVets so don't count those as the representative sound/feel across the board.


----------



## iron broadsword

Which method do you use? I've got a couple probes that sit between the socket and tubes and they hook up to my DMM. If I recall, it is the cathode shunt method.. With 6L6's I always found them to sound right at pretty much dead on 70%, but I was trying to see what I could get away with for a cool bias with these. The tone sucks with the bias here though and I did notice some ghost notes occuring, so must be getting quite a bit of crossover distortion.

I intend to try something else next time I order power tubes, but I kept seeing people calling these very 'classic' sounding, and the price was decent.


----------



## solarburn

I found the SVets a bit too short in low end and the upper mids strident. That was in my DSL50. If you like them then it's all good. My ears prefer warmer mids and a bit more low end as long as it's not boomy.

I use probes too. Amp Head dual bias tester. I like mine around 65% but it depends on the tubes. Usually a starting point for me.

AMP-HEAD Bias Tester Probe for Vacuum Tube Guitar Amplifier

Edit: I don't see mine on their page right now. Wonder if they are still building them. Mine can test PV as well as bias and its dual or 2 socketed.


----------



## mickeydg5

It is beneficial, at least to me, to find the sweet spot for bias set on each set of tubes.

Do not confuse these with the original Svetlana to which became SED. New Sensor uses the Svetlana name now.


----------



## paul-e-mann

MarshallDog said:


> Wonder how the JJ EL34-II will sound. Saw them on The Tube Store website. They got good reviews.
> 
> www.thetubestore.com - JJ EL34-II Audio Tubes



I was wondering about these as well.


----------



## iron broadsword

Yeah I always aim mess with it and leave it wherever it sounds good to me.. it's kind of a pain though cause I bias it at home with my V30 cab in a fairly small room and can't really open it up, and then only ever use the head with a T75 cab.. so it's always a little hit or miss, hehe. 

I didn't realize the Svetlana name was also used on the SEDs. Frustration! I do like the tone though roughly, and I came across this vid which seems to accurately depict the sound of mine VS what I'm looking for. (cold vs hot)

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFIXOEtjMWI[/ame]


----------



## iron broadsword

Yep, sure enough when I put them into the 33mA range it was like night and day / taking a blanket off the amp. Screw trying to squeeze some more play time out of the tubes! Also, I had actually had it set much lower before this, at 25mA.. which is about 50%. I noticed too that anything below 30mA with this quad had the muffled effect.


----------



## Dannyz

iron broadsword said:


> Yep, sure enough when I put them into the 33mA range it was like night and day / taking a blanket off the amp. Screw trying to squeeze some more play time out of the tubes! Also, I had actually had it set much lower before this, at 25mA.. which is about 50%. I noticed too that anything below 30mA with this quad had the muffled effect.



My Rubys EL34BSTR are biased at 33mv, seems like a middle point to start. Can you describe for me how those Svet´s sound? i would like them to sound something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICiJrqxKUY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O6aT11F8_g

A lil bit strident, but crunchy midrange, with not too much low end, no flub.


----------



## iron broadsword

I've not had the chance to crank them into power tube crunch yet so I don't know if they are capable of crunching that way, they sound great clean though and are definitely able to pass more non-flubby low end than the amp in both vids is dialled in for. One of these days I'm gonna buy a weber mass 200 and my life will be awesome.

FWIW, sounds like he's just got the master and treble up above 8, preamp gain to taste. I find with the treble up past that point on my amp it starts to roll off bass like a hi-pass.


----------



## paul-e-mann

I just popped in a pair of EL34 power tubes in my amp and noticed the pin key broke off on one, just the plastic part no glass. Is it ok to use this tube this way? I lined up the pins and its working fine.


----------



## mickeydg5

pedecamp said:


> I just popped in a pair of EL34 power tubes in my amp and noticed the pin key broke off on one, just the plastic part no glass. Is it ok to use this tube this way? I lined up the pins and its working fine.


 If you still have the pin and in good shape then super glue it back on, nice and straight.

The pin is for install guide purpose only but you do not want to stick it in there wrong. That will cause problems.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Thanks Mickey!


----------



## RiverRatt

I have several old power tubes with broken pins, mostly Tung-Sol 5881's, that I still use. I put a dot between pins 1 & 8 on the side of the base to show where the key on the pin was. Don't take the amp off standby until you make sure the heaters are glowing and you'll be fine.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, file this under "you learn something new every day." I was digging through my used tubes looking for 6AQ5's today. I found a 6HG5 that looked right, but Duncan's TDSL didn't show it as a sub. The datasheet was spot-on though so I put it with the other 6AQ5's I'd found. Turns out it *is* listed as a direct sub on tubedepot and similar sites. I wonder how many of these I picked over not knowing what they were?

I'm glad I finally tried these tubes out. I kept thinking of them as a cheap radio and TV output tube but they are magic in a tweed style circuit. Even better, I have boxes and boxes of tubes with overlooked 6AQ5's in them. Tube picking is fun again!


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah. Digging a little deeper, the 6HG5 is a 6AQ5 with a controlled cathode warm-up time of 14 seconds for use in TV audio amplifiers.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Ah. Digging a little deeper, the 6HG5 is a 6AQ5 with a controlled cathode warm-up time of 14 seconds for use in TV audio amplifiers.


Yes it seems so. Also check out these as substitutions.
6AQ5, 6AG5, 6AH5, 6BM5, 6005, 6669, 6095, 6L31, EL90, EF96, M8245, N727


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, I'm about to start a new 6AQ5 amp. I found a PT from an old Motorola portable stereo phonograph. It has a 6v tap for the rectifier, a 6.3v heater tap, and a center-tapped HT winding. It was powering a couple of 6BM8 pentode/triode tubes and a single 12AX7, and used an EZ80 rectifier. 

The schematic shows 212V after the reservoir cap. I'm thinking if I go with a single 6AQ5 and 12AX7 (one less pentode and two less triodes) and use an EZ81 rectifier, I should be getting between 250 - 275v on the plate of the output tube. 

Does this sound in the ballpark? I'm running 285V in my other amp and I like the way it sounds.

Here's the imprint on the PT. I'm assuming it's 185-0-185 at 122VAC? That last code seems to mean it was made by Apex of Chicago in 1961.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not know what the schematic looks like and the 185 stamp on the PT may be AC output. You would have to check the AC output once primary is connected at the wall to be sure.

With the tubes for intended use I do not know if you should expect 250-275 volts on the power tube plate. It may be more like 220-230 volts with an EZ81. I do not remember your other amplifier and how 285 volts was managed.

The 949 number belongs to Burr-Brown I believe. Where did you get Apex and how do you know that is a manufacturer code?


----------



## RiverRatt

Going by a post on another forum. They said it was Apex Transformer & Coil Corp. I didn't bother to dig up an actual EIA code list.

The other amp used a stock Epi Valve Jr. PT that had a 285-0 secondary. It was running at around 360VDC under load. I used a string of Zeners to get it down to 285v. As long as I can hit close to 250v I'm sure it'll be fine.

It must be fated to work out this way. My girlfriend took me to a little junk store about an hour from here today. I saw a Tung-Sol box up un a shelf and asked the dude if he could take it down for me. Next thing I know, I'm digging through a pristine RCA caddy! It was mostly TV tubes but I scored a NOS NIB GE 6CA4. There was also a Mullard GZ34, a couple of 6AQ5's, a NOS NIB pair of RCA 7189's, a Sylvania 12AX7 and a few 12AT7/12AZ7 types. I got a bag full of tubes at $2 each. That hasn't happened in a long time. Dude also said he has another caddy buried somewhere that he's going to find for me.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is nice. The 7189s go for a nice price, 6CA4 too, and the GZ34 if in good shape will fetch a nice penny.
What kind of SYL 12AX7?


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, of all the tubes, only the GZ34 tested bad. I went ahead and listed the two 7189's - they tested at 110% and will cover the price of the trip, and I don't really need them. I'll keep the 6CA4 - they always seem to come in handy.

The Sylvania is one of the short gray box plate 1950's tubes. Not a great tone tube but it'll be fine for anything else. 

I'm having to use a B&K 667 emissions tester as my TV-7 is still out of commission. I've poked around in it a bit but nothing obvious leaps out at me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sylvania 12AX7


----------



## mickeydg5

Ah. I was just wondering if it may have been a Gold Brand but figured you would have mentioned that if it were.
Too bad on the GZ34. That would have been sweet.


----------



## RiverRatt

Old sh!t is so cool....


----------



## mickeydg5

That's an antique, to me.
Any idea where it was used?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I found it in a bunch of stuff I got from an old TV repair shop. There were several Sprague black beauties with yellow print too. Must of the ones I've seen had red print. I don't know which is older.


----------



## mickeydg5

Black Beauties were a line of capacitors for radio and television applications in general. They were in a phenolic mold capsule.
I believe the colors corresponded to the construction and Sprague part number.
An old catalogue may give more information, hopefully in color.


----------



## RiverRatt

I checked both... the red print caps have the model number (160P) printed on the cap. The yellow print ones don't.


----------



## mickeydg5

Check this out because it has a bunch of stuff on it.
The 160P series was polyester film, page #7.

http://www.33audio.com/enter/data/1972SpragueFilm.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

Mickey, when you get a chance look at the datasheet for the 6DS5 and see what you think of it as a possible 6AQ5 sub. Looks like the plate resistance and transconductance are the main differences.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a link.

http://duncanamps.com/tdsl/link.php?target=0025983D


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Mickey, when you get a chance look at the datasheet for the 6DS5 and see what you think of it as a possible 6AQ5 sub. Looks like the plate resistance and transconductance are the main differences.



That is kind of similar to changing tube types that you are familiar with like from EL34 to 5881. The circuits may need to be tweaked for appropriate operation.

The 6DS5 filament draws almost twice the current.
Its plate resistance and dissipation is lower.
It is not a substitute but can be swapped with minor adjustments.


----------



## iron broadsword

The EL34's in my jcm900 kinda make glass shifting noise (kinda like you are pressing on a window until it starts to crack) as soon as I turn the amp off.. It seems like it's just cooling down and obviously moving and shifting a little. Have you guys experienced this? They've been doing it since I put them in a short while ago.

I have the bias set a little above 70%, so not *that* hot.. they're the svets I installed on the previous page. They sound great, but I wonder if one of them will have a short lifespan.


----------



## mickeydg5

iron broadsword said:


> The EL34's in my jcm900 kinda make glass shifting noise (kinda like you are pressing on a window until it starts to crack) as soon as I turn the amp off.. It seems like it's just cooling down and obviously moving and shifting a little. Have you guys experienced this? They've been doing it since I put them in a short while ago.
> 
> I have the bias set a little above 70%, so not *that* hot.. they're the svets I installed on the previous page. They sound great, but I wonder if one of them will have a short lifespan.


 That is normal. My ears pick that up all the time. It is part of cooling down, expansion and contraction.


----------



## iron broadsword

Cool, I thought as much but figured I'd better check where I've been through a bunch of sets without coming across it. 
ty


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I've noticed the glass cooling noises many times. The first time wasn't sure what until I picked the noise up at the tubes themselves. I usually have my heads open in back so was easy to find. Was always rolling tubes back then.


----------



## RickyLee

I have no experience with 6V6 power valves. So I am looking to you experts out there.



I just got a '79 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Was figuring I should spend for a new set of 6V6. Are JJ the better 6V6 these days? I was looking at a cheap set of Groove Tube 6V6 HD but then read that they are not very reliable and are just a relabeled old Russian version of a 6L6. 

The other idea I had was considered due to wanting to run the 8 ohm internal speaker along with my 8 ohm 2X12 cab which makes a 4 ohm load. What I have not found out yet is if this amp switches to a 4 ohm tap on the output transformer when something is plugged into the extension jack. I know some Fender amps have this. The schematic does not specify though. I will open the amp up here in a bit to see if the two speaker outs are simply wired in parallel.

On to my idea, which was to load in a set of 6L6 which I have plenty of. I would set the bias of course. And then the impedance of two 6L6 would match to 4 ohm vs 8 ohm impedance for two 6V6 and safely allow me to run my extension cab for a 4 ohm speaker load. That is if the amp only has a single impedance setting on the output transformer secondary.


----------



## mickeydg5

The output does not work that way. Stick to 6V6.

The EXT is paralleled to the main jack. Both jacks have to be used and that would be two 16 ohm cabinets for a total of 8 ohms with stock OT.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I have no experience with 6V6 power valves. So I am looking to you experts out there.
> 
> 
> 
> I just got a '79 Fender Deluxe Reverb. Was figuring I should spend for a new set of 6V6. Are JJ the better 6V6 these days? I was looking at a cheap set of Groove Tube 6V6 HD but then read that they are not very reliable and are just a relabeled old Russian version of a 6L6.



Don't get the Russian 6V6's. They are relabeled military 6P6S and aren't reliable at Fender B+ voltages. If you can score a couple of Sylvania silver top 6V6GT's they are my favorite 6V6. I ran a pair in a DRRI and they sound excellent. 

There's a nice pair on eBay. They are gonna run you a little more than CP but they last practically forever. 

Vintage Magnavox Sylvania Gray Glass 6V6 Guitar Amp Tubes Matched Pair | eBay

I'll be home later tonight. I'll see if I have anything matched. I sold off a lot of my 6V6's but I have some left.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Don't get the Russian 6V6's. They are relabeled military 6P6S and aren't reliable at Fender B+ voltages. If you can score a couple of Sylvania silver top 6V6GT's they are my favorite 6V6. I ran a pair in a DRRI and they sound excellent.
> 
> There's a nice pair on eBay. They are gonna run you a little more than CP but they last practically forever.
> 
> Vintage Magnavox Sylvania Gray Glass 6V6 Guitar Amp Tubes Matched Pair | eBay
> 
> I'll be home later tonight. I'll see if I have anything matched. I sold off a lot of my 6V6's but I have some left.




Thanks for looking out. I threw an offer out for that set of 6V6.

I am getting ready to fiddle with the Deluxe. The trem circuit does not work and the amp has a few mods. So . . . . this might just be a good donor to do a few of my wacky ideas on.




ADD: So I should stay clear of those 6V6 HD's?


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't find squat about the 6V6HD except what you mentioned. From the description I'm getting, they sound about like the 6P6S.


----------



## mickeydg5

You can find unpleasant reviews about GT-6V6-HD. I have read that they are more like weak 6L6 and bias like them too. That is exclaimed in Aspen's book as well concerning the "HD". That makes me believe that they are not even 6P6S which is actually like a 6V6. If you look up 6P6S pictures you will notice they do not look like GT-6V6-HD.

As RiverRatt said stick to name brand old stock or good new stock. Do not take a chance.


----------



## RickyLee

I found info that they were old surplus Russian 6p3s. That they have an impedance closer to a 6L6. 

I just removed the Doghouse cover and it is not good. There's five 16uF Mallory filter caps, all original from late 1978 and three are bulging on the positive end and one of those also has a good size cauliflower looking wart LOL. That is the first time I have seen that in an amp. Crap, I have had amps from the 60's that the caps did not look like that.

I would like to look into the possibility of increasing filtering just a bit with this 5U4GB rectifier before I order my caps.


----------



## RickyLee

5U4 max is 40uF. I am thinking two 22uF caps in parallel for the first stage should be fine.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 6P3S Is a fine tube. They were THE tone tube in the Egnater Tweaker 15. There was also a 6P3S-E that was awful. They were marketed as a 6L6 sub too, but weren't up to the job at all. The tone just wasn't there, and it's hard to make a Tweaker 15 sound bad. 

I'm wondering if they were marketed as the 6V6HD. They have a coin base kinda like some of the GE 6V6GT tubes out of Canada.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> 5U4 max is 40uF. I am thinking two 22uF caps in parallel for the first stage should be fine.



The original is two 16uf in parallel, right? It doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference.


----------



## RickyLee

Here's the 6V6 HD valves I was interested in:

Groove Tube 6V6 HD Power Tube Pair | eBay

I need to find out what the old Groove Tube 6V6 are that I dug out of my stash and loaded into the amp. Will see about taking some pics later.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> The original is two 16uf in parallel, right? It doesn't seem like it would make much of a difference.



Yes you are correct.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, those sure look like a 6P3S. You can't really blame the tube though. It does sound good but no, it isn't a 6V6 or a 6L6.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, those sure look like a 6P3S. You can't really blame the tube though. It does sound good but no, it isn't a 6V6 or a 6L6.


 What does the dissipation and impedance work out to on those?


----------



## mickeydg5

Remember that capacitors have tolerances sometimes to 20 and 30%.
Capacitance level can also move or change over time.


----------



## RiverRatt

From what I've found, they are a 20w tube, and Va max is 375 (I think), so 7K?

The datasheet I found says they are a 1,000 hour tube. Yikes!


----------



## RickyLee

mickeydg5 said:


> Remember that capacitors have tolerances sometimes to 20 and 30%.
> Capacitance level can also move or change over time.




If I end up with two 22uF caps in parallel, and they are 25% over, then I will have 55uF on that first stage. That will be quite a bit over spec for a 5U4 rectifier for sure. And I do not want to go to a 5AR4 as I do not want the higher B+. I already have well over 440V and that is high for 6V6.

I know you already advised me not to go to 6L6. But my idea was for a couple of reasons. First, to run a 4 ohm load cab. I would not be pushing much or cranking the amp much to be worried about the output transformer and the possible higher current with the 6L6. Second was the high 440V plate and screen. Much safer there with a 6L6. 

But I do have plans to change a few things on this Deluxe but they require money I can't spend right now. I was interested in the Mercury Magnetics lower B+ power transformer. Or another brand PT if I can find cheaper with lower B+ option. Then I could safely stay with 6V6 valves. The other one is a speaker change. I am GAS'ing for a Celestion Alnico Gold for this amp. I do have a couple 8 ohm Creamback 65's but would hate to yank them out of the cabs they are in. The Creamback 65 is supposed to really shine in open back combos.

But yeah, don't bag too hard on me for my 6L6 idea. How cool would it be to put a slightly bigger output transformer with multiple output taps in this Deulxe?







RiverRatt said:


> From what I've found, they are a 20w tube, and Va max is 375 (I think), so 7K?
> 
> The datasheet I found says they are a 1,000 hour tube. Yikes!



That 375V is not good. But how does that 1000 hour stack up? Is that good or bad?

ADD: LOL, I am thinking quite a few people are thinking I am trying to turn a Deluxe Reverb into a Pro Reverb. It is not that at all. For me it is the size of the Deluxe that makes it easier as a grab and go amp. Not as much more damage to my F'ed up lower back. This amp is much lighter than my Marshall 1X12 combos as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

1,000 hours is pretty friggin low. It makes you wonder what the Russian military used them for.

You guys might could help me with a strange problem with my 5F2A. I left it on for a day or two by mistake, and the last couple of times I've powered it on, there is dead silence. If I unplug the cable from the input and plug it back in, there's a slight crackle and it starts working.


----------



## RickyLee

I started to wonder if these 6V6 tubes I pulled out from my stash were the same as those GT 6V6 HD. They look very similar. And I had to apply a much higher negative voltage on the control grids for them to bias up as they were idling at 45mA when I installed them. They have that same plastic looking support on the top of the plates.


----------



## RickyLee

Besides the obvious of swapping valves or even just re-seating them, check all connections around the area of that input. Maybe re-flow solder on the input and Grounds.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> You guys might could help me with a strange problem with my 5F2A. I left it on for a day or two by mistake, and the last couple of times I've powered it on, there is dead silence. If I unplug the cable from the input and plug it back in, there's a slight crackle and it starts working.





RickyLee said:


> Besides the obvious of swapping valves or even just re-seating them, check all connections around the area of that input. Maybe re-flow solder on the input and Grounds.



Did you figure it out?

I am leaving for a jam then have to go from there to another band rehearsal. Will check back later tonight.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I haven't had a chance to get into it yet. There's an air mattress and my son & his girlfriend in the way right now.


----------



## RickyLee

I will order four 16uF and one 22uF filter caps. I will try 38uF on that first stage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, I didn't open it up yet but I got a big hint. I turned the amp on and strummed the guitar until it came on, then the volume faded back out. I unplugged the cable, plugged it back in, and the volume was back but faded out again. After maybe 3 or 4 times of this, the volume stayed up. 

The filter caps are new stock F&T. The reservoir cap is 47uf, followed by two 22uf. I have a couple of Zeners (reverse-biased) before the first cap to knock the B+ down for the 6AQ5.

The only really suspect cap I used was an older but unused Sprague Atom 20uf on the 6AQ5 cathode, but I don't think that would cause the volume drop. 

I put the amp together back in the Spring and it's been fine so far. Anything other than the obvious I should look at?


----------



## mickeydg5

Open it up and plug in. Use your meter AC to follow the signal. When you strum look for the spot where the signal is good and then where it is faded or gone. That will locate your trouble spot.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't get it to do that again! I hate intermittent problems.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well aint that a bitch.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to get inside it and check the caps. This is the first time I've used the black F&T electrolytics. Any opinion on them?


----------



## mickeydg5

Survey says, good stuff.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to get inside it and check the caps. This is the first time I've used the black F&T electrolytics. Any opinion on them?



I used them a few times before without issue and will be ordering some for this Deluxe Reverb.


----------



## RickyLee

WTF?? No one has posted to this thread in two years?

I was just searching for info on JJ 6V6S tubes, as I thought there was a lower output 6V6 offering like they did with their JJ EL844?

Anyone know?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't recall anything like that from JJ. You could try a couple of 6K6's. They are about half the output of a 6V6.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I don't recall anything like that from JJ. You could try a couple of 6K6's. They are about half the output of a 6V6.



I will look into those. They are same pinout then off top of your memory?

On a bummer note, I just had a big scare and made a huge booboo that hopefully will not be costing me big time. I pulled the 6V6's from my Deluxe Reverb to audition in another amp head yesterday. So just a bit ago I pull the 6V6's back from that amp and install them back in my Deluxe Reverb. Fired up the amp and no sound. Flipped standby back to check speaker cable cab connections. Tried it again, WTF? Look in the back and my 6V6's are not lit up. Oh oh. Thought at first I did the tubes in cranking them in the other amp. Had a hunch and Oh Crap. I put the 6V6's in close to 180 degrees off orientation into the sockets - on both of them. Guide pins are still there but it turns out the sockets obviously a bit worn, but there is a slight notch to where the keyway on the guide pins was able to go in the other side of the socket.

Feared the worse. But somehow, I am lucky as the tubes and amp is fine as far as I can tell as I just got done cranking it. I need to figure out exactly how the pins were in there and see why nothing happened. Possibly the B+ that should be pin 3 might have went to the tubes pin 6 that is vacant.


----------



## RickyLee

Well, I need a pair of EL84 tubes. A set that runs hotter than normal or needs a higher control grid negative voltage (bias voltage). Is there any sellers these days that can do that for us?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, the pinout is the same on the 6K6. I might have a pair you can try. Fender used them in their standalone reverb amp. I'll have to see if I have a close pair. 

On the EL84, try the Russian 6P14P. They can handle just about anything you throw at them. No idea on sellers - just find someone on eBay who has good feedback and a decent return policy.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/EL84-6BQ5-Tube-Types/Preferred-Series-7189-Premium-EL84



> Our Preferred Series 7189 starts life as a NOS (New Old Stock) Russian 6P14P-EV as translated from Cyrillic. It is a military build that meets or exceeds the 7189 specifications.


----------



## RiverRatt

Same tube here:

https://tubedepot.com/products/sovtek-el84m-power-vacuum-tube


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, the pinout is the same on the 6K6. I might have a pair you can try. Fender used them in their standalone reverb amp. I'll have to see if I have a close pair.
> 
> On the EL84, try the Russian 6P14P. They can handle just about anything you throw at them. No idea on sellers - just find someone on eBay who has good feedback and a decent return policy.



Thanks for looking out my friend. I checked my stash earlier this evening and I do have at least one NOS set of these. It seems I had experimented with these in the past. So I checked the data sheet for the voltage and they are rated quite a bit lower than what any of my amps are running.

Then my Deluxe Reverb, that is another story in itself. That bad boy is running 450VDC on the plates LOL. That PT secondary HT is a brutal 730VAC. I have it as low as I can get it using a 5U4GB rectifier. Those JJ 6V6S in there are taking a beating and liking it for sure. No wonder my Deluxe Reverb is so loud.

As for those 7189's, I know I have some of those here somewhere. But I am thinking it would be cool to see if I can find some hotter biasing EL84's. And I really want to try the lower wattage JJ EL844's. I pulled out a pair earlier I had in the stash but they would not bias up without modding the bias circuit. I am thinking if I call EuroTubes, I might be able to tell them what I need by phone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, that is high! Ever thought about switching it over to EL34's? 

You might want to stick with the JJ 6V6S. I've always heard that they are close in specs to a 6L6.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Wow, that is high! Ever thought about switching it over to EL34's?
> 
> You might want to stick with the JJ 6V6S. I've always heard that they are close in specs to a 6L6.



I had a friend smoke the output transformer in his Deluxe Reverb many years ago running EL34's in it. With EL34's, I would be more concerned with the extra heater current demand on the power transformer.

I ran those same JJ 6V6S tubes in my homemade PlexiRod for a bit. It is funny as my PlexiRod has a lower B+ than my Deluxe Reverb LOL. But I did hear a bit of volume drop going from JJ EL34 II's to JJ 6V6S in the PlexiRod.


----------



## mickeydg5

JJ 's version is heavier construction.
http://www.jj-electronic.com/en/6v6s
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/163/6/6V6S.pdf
http://www.mif.pg.gda.pl/homepages/frank/sheets/135/6/6V6GTA.pdf


----------



## RickyLee

The 2 X 6V6 platform is starting to look and sound more than sufficient for the practice room studio and the gigging venues. I love my PlexiRod with the two EL34's. But the volume level to where the amp starts sounding good is just not doable. That is why I tried the 6V6's. 

I was auditioning a few amps here at the house: the 2555 Jubilee Clone, the real deal '87 Silver Jubilee 2555, TSL100 after a few minor tweaks and even pulled the '94 6100 back out. The TSL100 was the leading candidate due to the built in reverb, channel switching and it has actually done quite well at lower sound levels - maintaining some warmth and clarity. Then I messed with the PlexiRod some more and being quite a bit of Robin Trower material is being played at this upcoming private party gig, it seemed like a logical choice to use that amp. The PlexiRod was working out well jiving with my OCD and DejaVibe pedals up front.

So next time I played the PlexiRod was at the rehearsal studio. Same settings as I had it at home. Had to dial my master volume down a bit. But I was not digging the tone. I did not have my needed top end sheen and sparkle. Distortion voicing was not very clear. Overall bummer. So that is what had me trying the 6V6 tubes in it the other day. I actually have not ruled out that it is the pair of JJ EL34 II valves I am not liking. So that is something I need to rule out. Also, I increased my first interstage treble peak from 270pF/1MEG to 750pF/470K. That right there was a bit of an improvement. I did not try the EL844 valves I have on hand as I did not feel like tweaking the bias supply circuit.

I am GAS'ing for a Vox AC30 or possibly an AC15. So I am thinking my next project amp might be a 2 X 6V6 or 2 X EL84 power amp section. I was considering an AC30 type build, but that will be quite an task as well as the transformers and the $$. I probably have some transformers I could make work though. I have a master volume on my Deluxe Reverb and it does not ever get past 5 to 6 range unless I am cranking it up at the house. It sounds glorious with the MV dimed of course.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I had a friend smoke the output transformer in his Deluxe Reverb many years ago running EL34's in it. With EL34's, I would be more concerned with the extra heater current demand on the power transformer.



Yeah, I wouldnt advise that at all. It was just a feeble attempt at humor. What year is your DR?


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I am GAS'ing for a Vox AC30 or possibly an AC15. So I am thinking my next project amp might be a 2 X 6V6 or 2 X EL84 power amp section. I was considering an AC30 type build, but that will be quite an task as well as the transformers and the $$. I probably have some transformers I could make work though.



I have a couple of really sweet transformer sets that I've been planning on doing that very thing with. I have a Hammond set that used a 5U4GB rectifier, a pair of 6BQ5 output tubes, a pair of 12AX7's and a 12BH7. I also have a set from an old 16mm projector that had a 5Y3, two 6973's and a pair of 12AX7's. 

I was thinking about using the 6973 set but running a pair of 6CM6 output tubes. They are like a 9-pin 6V6. I built a single ended tweed Princeton style amp using a single 6CM6 and it was probably the best sounding amp I've made. I'd like to try a pair in push-pull.


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## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I wouldnt advise that at all. It was just a feeble attempt at humor. What year is your DR?



Agreed. Yeah, I know you were joking. Way back when that happened to my buddy, neither him or myself did not know much about this stuff. But with him blowing that OT up, there was a bit of humor back then as he had said that the amp was sounding killer right before it went into meltdown LOL.

I will have to check that as my memory is fading man LOL. It is either '78 or '79. 



RiverRatt said:


> I have a couple of really sweet transformer sets that I've been planning on doing that very thing with. I have a Hammond set that used a 5U4GB rectifier, a pair of 6BQ5 output tubes, a pair of 12AX7's and a 12BH7. I also have a set from an old 16mm projector that had a 5Y3, two 6973's and a pair of 12AX7's.
> 
> I was thinking about using the 6973 set but running a pair of 6CM6 output tubes. They are like a 9-pin 6V6. I built a single ended tweed Princeton style amp using a single 6CM6 and it was probably the best sounding amp I've made. I'd like to try a pair in push-pull.



That project sounds very interesting for sure. Keep me posted on that one.


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## RiverRatt

Here's a short clip of the amp I built around the 6CM6 output tube. Basically a 5F2-A with a bypass cap on the second gain stage for a boost and no NFB. I was using an OCD for a little extra drive, and a delay pedal, but you can still hear what it sounded like.

There's some James Gang live song that starts kinda like this. That's what I had in my head anyway.


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## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a short clip of the amp I built around the 6CM6 output tube. Basically a 5F2-A with a bypass cap on the second gain stage for a boost and no NFB. I was using an OCD for a little extra drive, and a delay pedal, but you can still hear what it sounded like.
> 
> There's some James Gang live song that starts kinda like this. That's what I had in my head anyway.




Clip sounds great man.

Now you got me wondering what James Gang song you were thinking of, as I dig that group.


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## RiverRatt

Not this recording, but this is the song.


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## RiverRatt

I got a big bag of tubes to dig through this past weekend, and I always save anything that looks interesting. These, I thought, were worth sharing.

I found a pair of Amperex 6360 tubes that looked worth investigating. Turns out, they are a dual beam power tetrode tube, with about the output of an EL84 in each section. I was immediately thinking a single tube push-pull output stage, but the two tetrodes share a common screen grid. The next best option would be a parallel single-ended output section, or a push-pull output using two of these paralleled. Not bad - 36 watts oputput with two tubes. 

The common screen grid makes them difficult to test. The Hickok data says to isolate each section using a 35v battery. I doubt if I'll ever do anything with them, but if anyone wants to give it a try, they are up for grabs.


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