# Everything and Anything About Speakers



## MartyStrat54

*Hello. This is another catch all thread about speakers. I have a lot of experience with all sorts of speakers. This thread may work and it may dive, but at least I will know that I've tried.

This thread is about sharing info on how all guitar/bass speakers sound, whether they be Celestion, Eminence, Weber, Tone Tubby, etc.

Not all Celestions sound that good, especially by themselves. This is the latest trend in the speaker business, mating two different sounding speakers together. Eminence is now selling a variety of Tone Packs. These can be seen at Guitar Center and Musician's Friend.

Here are some of my speakers mods. I have installed an Eminence Red Fang alnico speaker in one of my DSL401. The other 401 has a JBL D123 in it.

In one ot my 602's, I have two Altec 417's and in the other 602, I have two JBL D123's.

The JBL's are 1961 models and the 417 is from 1972. Here are some pics.*

Front View of JBL D123 (12-inch):





Back View of JBL D123 (12-inch):





Back View of Altec 417-8H (12-inch)





Back View of Eminence Man 'O War speakers (12-inch) in TSL122:





Web link with sound clips for Eminence Red Fang (12-inch):

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound

Front View on Eminence Red Fang (12-inch):





*As you can tell, I like a lot of different speakers. I was a shop manager for a large Phoenix Pro Audio store and we repaired all the top brands of speakers and speaker cabinets. 

Right now, I am experimenting with some Eminence Delta Pro 12A's. These are actually mid PA drivers, but they make killer guitar or bass speakers. They are good down to 52Hz and start to roll off at around 4.5K. They are a neutral speaker and do not add any coloration to the amp. I'm finding that with a Marshall head like a TSL100, this is a good thing. The amp is more articulate and ballsy on its own. These speakers trim out some of the harshness associated with these amps.*

Web link for info on Eminence Delta Pro 12A (12-inch):
Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound

*Please add your comments about your favorite speaker. I would really like to meet some members who have a background in old JBL and Altec speakers, as well as Utah, Heppner and others.

More to come as I get situated.*


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## solarburn

Oh I'm looking forward to this thread. Speakers are a big part of our sounds. I haven't tried any Eminence yet just Celestions/Warehouse. I've used V30's/Veteran 30's, H30's, Greenbacks and K100's. Right now I am using a 412 of Greenbacks.

I'm up for comparisons and all around info on these other offerings like Eminence, Weber Blues...whatever guys are using or used.

About time for a thread like this!


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## MartyStrat54

*Thanks, Joe. I am going to try to obtain as many digital clips as I can.

Now about the JBL D123's. These speakers came out in the Fifties and at some point in the late Sixties the frame was modified to allow for front or rear mount. The later version is finished in a black, crinkle powder coat paint. The last D123 left the factory in the early 70's. 

The D123 has been called the best guitar speaker. Harvey Gerst is a long time JBL engineer. He designed the D123. He and several other JBL designers say that it covers music that wasn't even around when the speaker was invented.

This speaker is capable of some very tight bottom end, especially in a sealed or ported cabinet. In the right cabinet, you can get down to 35 Hz. It is a full range speaker and it goes to 12KHz. If you use a lot of FX and play with a lot of harmonics, you should try this speaker. It works well for blues, rock, hard rock and nu-metal.

If you looked at the photo, you can see the workmanship that went into these speakers. I have nine of these and also six recone kits in case I find a frame cheap on EBAY. These use special flat wound voice coils that have no air gap. Therefore, you get more wire in the gap. That is why these speakers are a hit with small tube Hi Fi's. The 123 is rated at 99dB with 1 watt. Not bad for a full range speaker. 

Their only drawback is power handling. They have changed this several times before settling on 50 watts.

Now, the Altec 417 comes in many versions. I also have two of these with a "Bell" back. They are the "Version I" model. These are rated at 75 watts and the 417-8H is rated at 100 watts. These are the speakers that Carlos Santana used in his early Mesa Boogie amps. Many older Boogies are equipped with Altecs. A Boogie combo with two of these is one heavy sucker. 

The 417 is another great American speaker. It doesn't have the full range of the D123, but it easily covers the guitar spectrum. These are getting harder and harder to find, because they didn't sell as heavy as the JBL speakers. (Remember, JBL had a deal with Fender. All JBL's equipped in a Fender amp were painted orange.)

I can say that the 417 is a truly wonderful speaker. If you can ever find a pair, they make a killer 212 cab. Randy Rhoads used the 417 exclusively in his 4 by 12 cabinets. If you liked his sound, now you know what kind of speakers he was running.

Next, I'll break down some of the Eminence speakers.*


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## MartyStrat54

*Before doing the Eminence, here is a link to a thread by GTRMAN. He provides some nice testing on Celestion speakers.*

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/8306-vintage-modern-through-bunch-cabinets.html


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## solarburn

That was cool. JSX cab stood out to me.


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## MartyStrat54

*Okay. Eminence is the largest speaker company in the world. They make all sorts of speakers including custom order. For guitar, they have two series, one is called "The Patriot" and the other is called "The Redcoat." They also have another line that contains many of their favorite speakers that they have made over the years.

If you mess around with these speakers, you will find that some of the Redcoats sound really close to certain Celestion speakers. In fact, the entire Redcoat series is aimed at being "British" flavored. Some of the more popular are the Man 'O War, the Tonespotter and the Wizard. The Red Fang is also a Redcoat speaker, but it is a special alnico speaker and has low power handling. It is perfect for a 40 watt amp.

The Wizard is an extremely sensitive speaker. One watt cuts about 103dB. If you put four of these in a 4 x 12 cab...I hope you like it loud. The Wizard is very articulate, but with a hint of grit. Nice sustain and exceptionally good tight bottom. It is a cross between the Private Jack and The Governor.

The Tonespotter is very smooth and warm with a fat bottom and highs that cut through the mix. Warm and thick overtones.

The Man 'O War has a large mid hump in it's frequency response. A proven and revered sound, very loud and responsive/articulate in every register. Chunky and solid sound with a little top end sparkle.*

*I'm still looking for sound clips for the Redcoat series. Here are the sound clips for the Patriot series.*

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound

*Here is the complete info on the Patriot and Redcoat series.*

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/tone_guide.pdf

*If you have a thread with sound clips or some other speaker related info, would you please include your link when you post.*


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## solarburn

I like the sounds of that Rajin Cajun. Pretty cool...


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## MajorNut1967

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Back View of Eminence Man 'O War speakers (12-inch) in TSL122:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More to come as I get situated.*



Hey look Marty's power tubes have Condoms!


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## rockinr0ll

HAHHAHAHHA.

How do you like those speakers Marty?


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## solarburn

Whadda you expect from a couple Man o War vibrators work'n them...

You don't want premature microfonation!


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## MajorNut1967

solarburndsl50 said:


> whadda you expect from a couple man o war vibrators work'n them...
> 
> You don't want premature microfonation!



hee hee rofl!


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## rockinr0ll

My test of Celestion Speakers:

The Vintage 30 speaker is like a Greenback on steroids; nice warm vintage tone, but also a loud electrifying ejection of air flow. 






The G12T-75 is great for the classic Marshall tone and found in many of the Marshall made Cabinets. They can sound very scooped with high end, but stay clean and don't break up like the Vintage 30. 






Hint! Mix for best of both worlds! (Editors choice!) 

Rock on my little tone searching demons!


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## rockinr0ll

BTW, why the hell isn't this in the speaker section? lol.


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## Frankie

I use two 4x12's loaded with Celestion G12C-25 Greenbacks with my Metroamp, and they're just sweet speakers. Midsy, creamy, not too boomy, and the treble isn't harsh. They don't have the tight bottom end of a 75, but I don't need it. That's what bass players are for!

In my AC30 I have a couple of honest Celestion Blues. Again, awesome speakers! Chimey top end, smooth mids, but like the greens, not heavy in the bass. In fact, with that AC30 driving them, they can get a little flubby at high volumes. Just awesome for that Vox tone, and if I stick that AC30 on one of the 4x12's, it the best of both worlds!

In my Fender I actually have some el-cheapo Jensen MOD 10-35's, and I have to admit, I was a skeptic at first. Surprisingly, they've grown on me, and I rather like the tone they produce. Very bass-heavy Fender-esque when not driven, which is awesome for some of that cowboy shit, but if you get that Super Reverb cranked up to the sky, the get a little of that British bite on 'em. Very cool speakers, and surprisingly cheap.

In my 2x12 cab I have the original Vox-branded Wharfedales in there. They're basically a Greenback G12H clone, and actually sound pretty damn good. I replaced the G12T-75's that were in there with 'em, and the G12T's found their way quickly onto Craigslist.

As far as G12T's go, I actually like the older, 80's ones. They sound much sweeter and heavier than the modern versions. I had some 1984 75's in my old JCM 800 combo, they were actually pretty bad ass sounding. The '97 75's in my 2x12... crap. That's why I sold 'em.

My pop plays an '87 JCM 800 on matching '87 A&B cabs. The bottom is loaded with 75's, the top loaded with 65's, and both cabinets are bad ass. His bottom end is seriously tight out of that B cab, and the treble and bite from the 65's up top is awesome.


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## bro blue

Hellatone - Avatar takes Celestions and breaks them in, rebrands them, and sends them on their way. They sound great out of the box (they _are_ Celestions) and you do not have to wait until they are broken in to get the sound you are looking for out of them.

I have used different Weber speakers in different amps, but I don't know if they are going to stay in business now that Ted is gone. RIP Ted, a great guy to deal with.


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## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> BTW, why the hell isn't this in the speaker section? lol.



*Because "Speakers and Cabinets" is about impedance problems, wiring and stuff like that. I don't want to have to do impedance charts and tell someone that two 16 ohm speakers in parallel is 8 ohms. 

No, this is about tone. The different tones you get from speakers. If the thread is successful, it won't matter what category it is in. 

Anyway, we are dealing with the tone of speakers, not speaker problems.*


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## MartyStrat54

bro blue said:


> Hellatone - Avatar takes Celestions and breaks them in, rebrands them, and sends them on their way. They sound great out of the box (they _are_ Celestions) and you do not have to wait until they are broken in to get the sound you are looking for out of them.
> 
> I have used different Weber speakers in different amps, but I don't know if they are going to stay in business now that Ted is gone. RIP Ted, a great guy to deal with.



I have several buddies in the KC area that love their Hellatone speakers. I would love to get some sound clips on them and see how they sound straight up to the same Celestion.

Weber is/was very small and it is tough to compete against Eminence. I hope that they are able to continue making the Weber speakers. I got to hear a pair last weekend with a Twister F3 head and they were dynamite. The F3 is a single channel amp so you turn the volume down for your clean and then rip the volume knob for your lead. The Weber's were nice and clear when the guitar was turned down. However, they had some nice breakup when the amp was slammed.


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## MartyStrat54

Frankie said:


> I use two 4x12's loaded with Celestion G12C-25 Greenbacks with my Metroamp, and they're just sweet speakers. Midsy, creamy, not too boomy, and the treble isn't harsh. They don't have the tight bottom end of a 75, but I don't need it. That's what bass players are for!
> 
> In my AC30 I have a couple of honest Celestion Blues. Again, awesome speakers! Chimey top end, smooth mids, but like the greens, not heavy in the bass. In fact, with that AC30 driving them, they can get a little flubby at high volumes. Just awesome for that Vox tone, and if I stick that AC30 on one of the 4x12's, it the best of both worlds!
> 
> In my Fender I actually have some el-cheapo Jensen MOD 10-35's, and I have to admit, I was a skeptic at first. Surprisingly, they've grown on me, and I rather like the tone they produce. Very bass-heavy Fender-esque when not driven, which is awesome for some of that cowboy shit, but if you get that Super Reverb cranked up to the sky, the get a little of that British bite on 'em. Very cool speakers, and surprisingly cheap.
> 
> In my 2x12 cab I have the original Vox-branded Wharfedales in there. They're basically a Greenback G12H clone, and actually sound pretty damn good. I replaced the G12T-75's that were in there with 'em, and the G12T's found their way quickly onto Craigslist.
> 
> As far as G12T's go, I actually like the older, 80's ones. They sound much sweeter and heavier than the modern versions. I had some 1984 75's in my old JCM 800 combo, they were actually pretty bad ass sounding. The '97 75's in my 2x12... crap. That's why I sold 'em.
> 
> My pop plays an '87 JCM 800 on matching '87 A&B cabs. The bottom is loaded with 75's, the top loaded with 65's, and both cabinets are bad ass. His bottom end is seriously tight out of that B cab, and the treble and bite from the 65's up top is awesome.



*Thanks for taking the time to relay all of this info. I see that you are another player that replaced his G12T-75's. I've never been a fan of them. They just don't seem to mess well with certain Marshall amps, especially a bright amp. The treble gets a little harsh for me.

I had a 4 x 12 cab with four of the Vox/Wharfdale speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers. In fact, someone tried out that cab and bought it on the spot. I got my Vox/Wharfdale speakers on EBAY for cheap. So if you are looking for some nice speakers cheap, keep your eyes open on EBAY or CL's for these speakers. Some players buy these Vox amps and pull these speakers out right away to put the alnico's in there. So most of the time these speakers are basically new.

I have built some lower cost cabinets and used the MOD speakers. I have only used the 12-inch. Yes, they seem to be a little darker than most 12-inch guitar speakers. It was what the customer wanted, but I personally did not like them.

In your AC30 you say you have Celestion Blues? Are these the G12 (aka P-A-G12) speakers? Those are very pricey, around $280 each. I'd also like to hear more about the G12-65's. I've heard some good things about those speakers, but I've never played through any of them.

Oh, your dad has a nice rig BTW.*


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## MartyStrat54

MajorNut1967 said:


> Hey look Marty's power tubes have Condoms!



*Now, now there Major Nut. Where do you think little preamp tubes come from? It's like Solar said, you don't want premature microfonation occurring, because that can lead to unwanted JJ's.*


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## MartyStrat54

*Warehouse Guitar Speakers, aka WGS. They make drop in replacements for many Celestion speakers. Go to their site, click on an interesting speaker and review the sound clips. Many, many sound clips here.*

Warehouse Guitar Speakers | Products


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## MartyStrat54

*Here is US Speakers website for Eminence. They are showing some of the brand new models. I put the link here, because if you scroll all the way towards the bottom, you will find the Redcoat series speakers and they have sound clips for all of them. I could not find any Eminence link that had these sound clips.*

Eminence Speakers - Eminence Guitar Legend lead & bass speakers - Eminence Guitar Legend speakers for amp upgrades for lead and bass guitar. Eminence guitar & bass speakers here.


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## MartyStrat54

*Here is a massive amount of clips using all kinds of vintage Marshall, Fender and other amps through Scumback speakers. Just click on the right side to begin the ride.*

Scumbacks Speakers: Sound Clips


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I like the sounds of that Rajin Cajun. Pretty cool...



*I keep at least a couple of those around and the Copperhead as well. The Rajun Cajun to me sounds better when there are two of them in a cabinet. I've tried them both open and closed back and I think they sound better in an open back.*


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## butterguitar

I am trying to decide whether to get the Celestion G12T-75 or the Vintage 30's.
Of what i hear, the 75's are mid scooped, excellent tight bass response but their highs can be blistering :-/
And of the Vintage 30's fantastic mids, very mid-rangy, a looser bass reponse, and the speaker tends to break up quicker.

I would like to mix them both, with an Avatar cab, but im worried about quality. Money isnt an issue, i just want the perfect speaker tone!

My current Celestion 75's suck lol


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I keep at least a couple of those around and the Copperhead as well. The Rajun Cajun to me sounds better when there are two of them in a cabinet. I've tried them both open and closed back and I think they sound better in an open back.*



I like open back cabs. I went back and forth with the Cajun overdrive clip listening intently to the other clips on that page comparing the overdrive clips and I liked it pretty much the most out of what was there. I thought the cleans were nice and open too. I didn't really care about the heavy clips.

I think my stuff would jive with them. They on the radar now. What was their wattage again?


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## solarburn

butterguitar said:


> I am trying to decide whether to get the Celestion G12T-75 or the Vintage 30's.
> Of what i hear, the 75's are mid scooped, excellent tight bass response but their highs can be blistering :-/
> And of the Vintage 30's fantastic mids, very mid-rangy, a looser bass reponse, and the speaker tends to break up quicker.
> 
> I would like to mix them both, with an Avatar cab, but im worried about quality. Money isnt an issue, i just want the perfect speaker tone!
> 
> My current Celestion 75's suck lol



I hate the toppiness(high end)of the T-75's. I like V30's though especially in a band mix. A good mix I like is a k100 and a V30. Avatar cabs are nice for the price IMO.


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## butterguitar

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I hate the toppiness(high end)of the T-75's. I like V30's though especially in a band mix. A good mix I like is a k100 and a V30. Avatar cabs are nice for the price IMO.



Yeah im looking for a good speaker to cut through the mix. Since I do play with a keyboardist in my band haha


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## rockinr0ll

75 > 100 IMO. I bet a 65 would be the best to mix with a V30 though.


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## butterguitar

Why do alot of people dislike the G-75? The 1960 cab is the "industry standard" haha


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## solarburn

butterguitar said:


> Why do alot of people dislike the G-75? The 1960 cab is the "industry standard" haha



Alot of people call them harsh cause of the high end sizzle and scooped mids. The lows are good IMO.

It depends on the amp, cab and guitar really but I have used a few amps with the T-75's with same guitar and still found them harsh. There are alot of players that like them too. 

Mixing them with a V30 I've read does well but I only have experience mixing the G12K100 with a V30 so I can only go by hearsay on what I have read on mixing the T-75.


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## rockinr0ll

butterguitar said:


> The 1960 cab is the "industry standard" haha


That's exactly why, we like changing speakers and finding our own personal speaker.


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I like open back cabs. I went back and forth with the Cajun overdrive clip listening intently to the other clips on that page comparing the overdrive clips and I liked it pretty much the most out of what was there. I thought the cleans were nice and open too. I didn't really care about the heavy clips.
> 
> I think my stuff would jive with them. They on the radar now. What was their wattage again?



*I posted the complete Eminence Patriot/Redcoat chart ( in PDF form) in a prior post. I will post it again. The nice thing is you can listen to the soundclips and then read the description that Eminence gives. This allows you to better understand their descriptions.

To answer your question, the Cajun is good for 75 watts. Here is the chart. The Cajun is second from the top. You will need to make the page bigger to read the text.

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/tone_guide.pdf*


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I posted the complete Eminence Patriot/Redcoat chart ( in PDF form) in a prior post. I will post it again. The nice thing is you can listen to the soundclips and then read the description that Eminence gives. This allows you to better understand their descriptions.
> 
> To answer your question, the Cajun is good for 75 watts. Here is the chart. The Cajun is second from the top. You will need to make the page bigger to read the text.
> 
> http://www.eminence.com/pdf/tone_guide.pdf*



Thanks my brutha!


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## MartyStrat54

*Another big favorite for guitar amps is Jensen. Click the link and you can navigate through their different lines such as alnico or ceramic. *

Jensen Vintage Alnico Speakers


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## MartyStrat54

*Avatar's link for Celestion speaker. A little hard to navigate. It does offer a G12-75 and V30 sound clips in different cabs and size amps.*

Celestion Speaker Replacements


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## JohnH

Great thread Marty. Heres links to four tests that have been posted recently:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFase_serW4]YouTube - Celestion V30 vs G12h (Valveking amp)[/ame]

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabine...ker-test-v30-v-g12t75-v-g12h30-v-g12k100.html

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/8306-vintage-modern-through-bunch-cabinets.html

trinityamps.com :: View topic - BGroup Music Trinity Amps Speaker Test

This last one takes more work from us, but there you can hear a bunch of amps through a bunch of cabs, some Celestion based and some not. Follow the links under "polls" and download the ones that you want.


John


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## MartyStrat54

*Thanks John. Thanks for the vid.*


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## Frankie

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Thanks for taking the time to relay all of this info. I see that you are another player that replaced his G12T-75's. I've never been a fan of them. They just don't seem to mess well with certain Marshall amps, especially a bright amp. The treble gets a little harsh for me.
> 
> I had a 4 x 12 cab with four of the Vox/Wharfdale speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers. In fact, someone tried out that cab and bought it on the spot. I got my Vox/Wharfdale speakers on EBAY for cheap. So if you are looking for some nice speakers cheap, keep your eyes open on EBAY or CL's for these speakers. Some players buy these Vox amps and pull these speakers out right away to put the alnico's in there. So most of the time these speakers are basically new.
> 
> I have built some lower cost cabinets and used the MOD speakers. I have only used the 12-inch. Yes, they seem to be a little darker than most 12-inch guitar speakers. It was what the customer wanted, but I personally did not like them.
> 
> In your AC30 you say you have Celestion Blues? Are these the G12 (aka P-A-G12) speakers? Those are very pricey, around $280 each. I'd also like to hear more about the G12-65's. I've heard some good things about those speakers, but I've never played through any of them.
> 
> Oh, your dad has a nice rig BTW.*



Yup, replaced the G12T's in that 1936 cab, the 425 A&B 4x12's I use came with the G12C's. They're part of the Vintage Modern line, and while the amp sucks, the cabinets are awesome.

You're also correct about the Wharfedales. A lot of people (myself included) don't feel the deliver the true Vox sound, so they get yanked pretty quickly. They're awesome, cheap Greenback clones though, that's why I put 'em in my Marshall cabinet. They sell for dirt on eBay and CL, so scoop 'em up if you don't wanna fork out the cash for some Celestions.

Never tried the Mod 12's, but the 10's are bright, twangy, and crisp like you'd expect a Fender to be. Totally allow me to get my cowboy thing going.

Yes, I have legit UK-made Blues in my AC30. The pair cost me over $500 from Avatar.

I'm on the fence about the 65's, but it's probably just the rig on top. My pop's JCM 800 is pretty bright the way he plays it, so those 65's can get icepicky. I should plug my amp into that cab and see what they sound like. His rig is definitely nice. It's a treat when I get to work on that head.

Here's a shot of our practice space:


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## MartyStrat54

*Ah ha! You don't like your drummer I see. You have the bass cabs right behind him, although he is killing you with his cymbals.*


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## Frankie

He loves it! That's an honest 1972 Ampeg SVT on top of two 810 cabs.


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## MartyStrat54

Frankie said:


> He loves it! That's an honest 1972 Ampeg SVT on top of two 810 cabs.



When I lived in Phoenix, I used to refurbish all sorts of cabs and speakers. I was a service manager for a large, Pro Audio company. I must have rebuilt 2 dozen SVT cabs. Most people do not know that they have special 32 Ohm speakers wired in parallel for a four ohm load. The original and Reissue SVT head will run two ohms at 300 watts of all tube power. Now that's a friggin' awesome output tranny handling that sort of load.

Ampeg: Classic Series - SVT-VR

Jensen MOD Series speakers - Jensen MOD10-50 10" speaker model is great in 4 x 10 speaker cabinets. 4 ohm version works great in Ham Radios.


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## Frankie

Yup! Most people with older ones don't have the later "safety" feature Ampeg added when it'll only push 150 watts per speaker output either, so they pump all 300 watts to one 8x10 and explode it. My bassist did just that with the matching 8x10 for that amp, so he retired it to his apartment and now uses two new reissue 810-LE cabs. They sound pretty close to his original, especially once broken in, and all 16 of those speakers moving is just insane. He had that amp cranked up at half once for a show we played, which competed easily with my 50 watt Plexi on 8, and it was actually moving the bootcuts on my pants with the SPL!


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## MartyStrat54

*Oh I believe that. I've set up many PA systems that moved a lot of air and bass cabs can do it on their own. I set up a house system for a 1000 seat bar in Phoenix and when the headlining act came on, the sound man cranked the shit out of it and it was actually causing air to push up and out of our beer bottles. 

Does the old SVT head run 7027's for power tubes? If so, is your bass player running new stuff or NOS?*


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## Frankie

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Oh I believe that. I've set up many PA systems that moved a lot of air and bass cabs can do it on their own. I set up a house system for a 1000 seat bar in Phoenix and when the headlining act came on, the sound man cranked the shit out of it and it was actually causing air to push up and out of our beer bottles.
> 
> Does the old SVT head run 7027's for power tubes? If so, is your bass player running new stuff or NOS?*



No, SVTs run 6x6550's for power tubes! :eek2: His old B-25B runs 2x7027-A's though, and it's loaded with NOS GE's pretty much throughout. His SVT is loaded with RCA's in the preamp, but a sextet of NOS 6550's costs a small fortune, so it's running new issue Tung Sols in the power section.


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## MartyStrat54

*Here is a helpful link to better understand the SPL outputs of multiple speakers. It also covers speaker impedance versus amp output.*

OrdinaThor_Loudspeakers_Multiple Arrays - fullrange speakers, horn, high efficiency, tqwt, multiple arrays, general audio topics>

Here is a sample from the link:

Each time the resistivity halves (i.e. goes from 8 ohm to 4 ohm, etc.), the sensitivity doubles, and quite vice versa. So, when connecting two 8-ohm speakers in parallel, the impedance drops to 4 ohm and the sensitivity increases 3dB because the amplifier develops more power into the lower impedance. If you would connect the two drivers in series, the impedance increases to 16 ohm. Ignoring for a moment the cone-area increase's effect, the sensitivity will drop 3dB because the amplifier produces less power into the higher impedance.
This is based on the following principle: when the impedance halves, the amplifier doubles it's output power, and hence the 3dB rise in output level. In a solid-state amp this works, but what about the valve amp. Their spec.sheet usually indicates the same power into 4, 8 or 16 ohms. So they do not add the 3dB increase.

Increase of sensitivity due to enlarged cone area

For each doubling of the cone area, the sensitivity rises 3dB, i.e. if you have one cone, adding a second one will add 3dB to the sensitivity (ignoring for the moment changes of impedance). Now with two cones, Sd must be doubled (total four cones) to add another 3dB to the sensitivity. To increase the sensitivity another 3dB, you need to add four cones, etc. ad infinitum.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

i'm really surprised that nobody has talked about the G12H-30's , these to me are 
one of the best sounding guitar speaker around . just awesome for classic rock 
and some metal etc. !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Well you can be the first to write a review.*


----------



## 00jett

I have 2 of the anniversary g12h30s in my cab, i know they are not supposed to be as good as old ones or the heritage ones but i still really like them. the v30s have that nice upper half of the eq covered and the g12h30s handle that low section better. nice pair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Nice cab shot! Yeah that seems to be the ticket. I sort of broke out of the mold and my 4 x 12 is loaded with early 60's Heppner Alnico speakers. These are actually the early version of what you have. These speakers were called "duo's." One speaker was midrange and high end and the other was lows and midbass. I run two sets of these in my 4 x 12. This is basically what you have with your mix of speakers. Rock on!*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Here are some classic, late 50's ALNICO "Bell" speakers. The bell refers to the cover that goes over the magnet structure making the speaker resemble a bell. These type of speakers make great guitar speakers. These four are two pairs of UTAH speakers. The ALNICO magnet was very large and they have a two and a half-inch voice coil. Even with the big magnet they were restricted to 40 watts. This is because of the paper voice coil. Some people prefer the sound of a paper VC over say one made of NOMEX. These speakers break up easily with a 50 watt amp.*























If you run across a pair of these, put them in a 2 x 12 cab and with a 50 watt amp they will be perfect. You will need four of them for a 100 watt cab.


----------



## TubeStack

This one's part of a pair I've got on the way in the mail right now.

Looking forward to trying them mixed with my Greenback RIs in a 4x12! 

Was mainly looking for another pair of Greenbacks, going for having four in one cab, but came across a deal on these and thought they'd be worth a try.

And the wait continues...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought this would be a good thread. It's a shame that so many speaker questions are going to individual threads. Hopefully this will get out in the mix again and some other people will share their feedback.

Just now, I needed some info to answer a forum members question and I came to this thread and found what I was looking for. 

Rock on my friends.


----------



## MartyStrat54

CURRENT LINE UP OF CELESTION GUITAR SPRAKERS 

* Celestion Blue Alnico 16ohms
* Celestion Blue Alnico 8 Ohms 
* Celestion Century 90
* Celestion Century Vintage 
* Celestion Classic Lead 
* Celestion Custom 80
* Celestion G10 Greenback
* Celestion G10 Vintage 
* Celestion G10-60 
* Celestion G12 Century
* Celestion G12 Heritage
* Celestion G12 S 50
* Celestion G12 Vintage 30 
* Celestion G12-100
* Celestion G12-65
* Celestion G12-65 Rola
* Celestion G12-66 
* Celestion G12B 150 8 OHMS
* Celestion G12H Rola & Pre-Rola 
* Celestion G12H100
* Celestion G12H30 70th Anniversary 
* Celestion G12H30 Black Back

* Celestion G12H30 Greenback Pre-Rola 
* Celestion G12H30 Heritage 
* Celestion g12k-85
* Celestion G12K100 
* Celestion G12L
* Celestion G12L-55
* Celestion G12M 10
* Celestion G12M 70
* Celestion G12M 70W 4 Ohms
* Celestion G12M-25 Greenback 
* Celestion G12T"HOT"100
* Celestion G12T-100 
* Celestion G12T-75 
* Celestion Gold Alnico
* Celestion Greenback
* Celestion HP G12M 25W 16 Ohms
* Celestion Super 
* Celestion V 12-60 16 Ohms 
* Celestion V30 et G12B-150
* Celestion Vintage 30 
* Celestion Vox Alnico Vintage


----------



## MartyStrat54

When it comes to replacing speakers, I just wanted to share with you that the most common replacements using Eminence speakers are "The Governor" and "The Private Jack." These are recommended for a 1960AX/BX/TV, TSL122 and even the MG Series. The Governor can be used in AVT 412 cabs. Alternatives to these speakers are as follows.

Governor-Stonehenge 

Private Jack-The Tonker

Of course, The Man 'O War and The Wizard have a very British sound and they are extremely efficient and therefore work well in a 2 X 12 configuration.

Also, if you have a bright sounding amp and you don't want to go through tube and transformer mods, let me suggest the Eminence Red, White and Blues. Its frequency response has a dip at the right frequency that allow it to smooth out the highs without killing the top end. I run a set and they are great speakers, plus they handle 120 watts each.

Now I'm not trying to chase you away from Celestions. I just think that as a player, you need to be aware of your choices. I hear a lot of people on this thread complain about their sound. Just remember, your preamp tubes and your speakers can drastically alter your sound. Much more so than an output tranny mod and choke. 

A good speaker will smooth out those harsh sounding amps. It's not that they might, it's that they will. So if you are having the tonal blues and you are looking for options, think about a speaker change.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you get here, just post a short response about what you run for speakers and if you are happy with their tone. 

If you have some favorite speaker from the past, let me know about it.

I'd really like to see this thread stay active.


----------



## 00jett

I have a question for ya Marty. Since you seem to know alot about Eminence speakers i figure your the one to ask this. A buddy of mine has a bunch of hand-built amps with all sorts of different speakers, but most are celestions and he is wanting to break from the celestion mold. He asked me the other day if i would listen to the sound clips on the Eminence and help him choose 2 speakers that would go in a combo he is making that is based off a bluesbreaker. Like myself he uses a vintage 30 and a g12h-30 for alot of things and wants to continue mixing 2 different speakers for the new amp project he is working on. Are there 2 Eminence speakers that mix really well together?


----------



## gag halfrunt

00jett said:


> I have 2 of the anniversary g12h30s in my cab, i know they are not supposed to be as good as old ones or the heritage ones but i still really like them. the v30s have that nice upper half of the eq covered and the g12h30s handle that low section better. nice pair.



The 4x12 I use at our practice space has this exact speaker configuration. It's a great mix.

For gigs, I use two 4x12s. One has English V30s and Greenbacks in the X pattern. The other has WGS Veteran 30s and ET65s, also in X. I put the WGS in the top cab, to put a more even, but full range sound right at me, and the V30/Greenback cab is on the bottom, as the slightly brighter cab. I find it works well.

Home practice 4x12 is loaded with Chinese V30s and Chinese Greenbacks. But it's just for practice


----------



## 00jett

> For gigs, I use two 4x12s. One has English V30s and Greenbacks in the X pattern. The other has WGS Veteran 30s and ET65s, also in X. I put the WGS in the top cab, to put a more even, but full range sound right at me, and the V30/Greenback cab is on the bottom, as the slightly brighter cab. I find it works well.



I hear alot of good things about those ET65 speakers, i almost picked up a used set just to try them.


----------



## gag halfrunt

00jett said:


> I hear alot of good things about those ET65 speakers, i almost picked up a used set just to try them.



They are some great speakers.

I almost said "they are some great speakers _*for the money*_," but anymore, I'd put most of their line up favorably against their Celestion counterparts. I actually prefer the Veteran 30 to the new Vintage 30s.


----------



## solarburn

gag halfrunt said:


> They are some great speakers.
> 
> I almost said "they are some great speakers _*for the money*_," but anymore, I'd put most of their line up favorably against their Celestion counterparts. I actually prefer the Veteran 30 to the new Vintage 30s.



I've got a couple of Veteran 30's and I like em' too.

I want to try some Ragin Cajun's by Eminence. The clips portray them as a great R&R speaker. Reminded me alot of my Greenbacks. Anyways I've never given Eminence a try.


----------



## MartyStrat54

00jett said:


> I have a question for ya Marty. Since you seem to know alot about Eminence speakers i figure your the one to ask this. A buddy of mine has a bunch of hand-built amps with all sorts of different speakers, but most are celestions and he is wanting to break from the celestion mold. He asked me the other day if i would listen to the sound clips on the Eminence and help him choose 2 speakers that would go in a combo he is making that is based off a bluesbreaker. Like myself he uses a vintage 30 and a g12h-30 for alot of things and wants to continue mixing 2 different speakers for the new amp project he is working on. Are there 2 Eminence speakers that mix really well together?



A Texas Heat and a Governor is a killer combo. You can get two of each in 16 ohm and do a 4 X 12 cab.


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## MartyStrat54

I would like to add the link to Fane speakers.

Fane International - Classic Guitar Speakers


----------



## 00jett

> A Texas Heat and a Governor is a killer combo


I checked out the clips on these, they do sound really good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm probably going to get some of these for testing and also the neo magnet George Lynch speaker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's a great page from Weber. I haven't heard what the fate of the company is. Anyway, I've gone to this page several times.

Let's Talk Speakers


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's an article from Anthony Lucas of Eminence. I had the pleasure of working with him on a copy of a JBL D123. However, we were unable to duplicate the speaker.

Mixing guitar speakers is one of the most frequent topics I receive inquiries about. This tonal experiment gets a lot of hype, and for good reason. It’s a lot of fun to experiment with various speakers, and I highly recommend it. If you choose wisely, you might unlock a full, detailed, complex tone that you never knew existed. Experimenting is definitely the best way to find what works for your situation, but it’s not cost effective for most people to buy a multitude of speakers just to find it. In most cases, we’ve got to get it right on the first try.

From a technical standpoint, choose models that have SPL (or sensitivity/efficiency) ratings within 2dB of one another. This ensures that one speaker will not be significantly louder than the other. Unfortunately this is the only technical advice I can provide, as the rest of the decision process is purely subjective, but I’ll offer some suggestions that might make selecting speakers a little easier.

Once you’ve determined the speakers you’re considering will not be overpowered, forget about the power rating. Do not use it for any other consideration. If I get one point across, I want to stop people from selecting their guitar speakers primarily based on the power rating. From Eminence’s perspective, it doesn’t mean much, because it’s only intended as a thermal power limit. A common misconception is that you shouldn’t pair a higher wattage speaker with a lower wattage speaker – we often encourage it because of the contrast produced in low and top-end response. As you compare speakers, be sure to take notice of the voice coil diameter. A higher wattage speaker typically has a larger voice coil diameter, which provides a more defined low-end and less topend extension. The converse is typically true of lower power, smaller voice coil models. You can achieve a full spectrum of tone, from top to bottom, by using this principle.

Another misconception is that a lower power speaker will break up too soon or a higher power speaker will break up too late. This is not always the case, and the power rating has nothing to do with it. Consider what contrast different break up characteristics might add to the mix. Maybe you desire some speaker break up, but you don’t want to lose all control and have your tone turn to mush when you really push the amp. You might want to mix one speaker with early break up and one with later break up. The density of the cone and the relationship between the voice coil winding height and the top plate thickness (between the magnet and the speaker’s frame) determines the speaker’s break up. Eminence expresses the break up mode as fast, medium and late for the Patriot and Redcoat series in the “Guitar Tone Guide” at eminence.com. Other manufacturers use similar methods or describe the break up in their tonal descriptions of the speaker.

You could also compare manufacturers’ frequency response curves, which represent the output of the speaker at each frequency (SPL in dB versus frequency in Hz). If you print the curves and lay them on top of one another you can easily compare them. Make sure you line up their corresponding dB levels, as the graphs may be scaled differently. Comparing the curves gives you a basic idea of how they might compliment each other within specific frequency ranges. Keep in mind, this is a 1-watt measurement and represents the fundamental note with no harmonic content. And as we know, guitar speakers are typically abundant in harmonic content.

I’m often asked about mixing speakers from two different product lines (Legends, Patriots and Redcoats where Eminence is concerned) or from two different manufacturers (maybe a Celestion and an Eminence). It’s never out of the question if that’s where the path to the Holy Grail leads you; just remember that the same guidelines apply. It may be difficult to compare multiple manufacturers’ SPL ratings because there is not an industry standard method for representing the SPL. This occurs since manufacturers calculate it using different methods. The SPL rating is a useful spec in the sense that you can accurately compare one manufacturer’s products from speaker to speaker.

One of the easiest ways to find a good mix is to start with a speaker that you really like. Then, decide what characteristics you could add that would improve the overall sound or create more interest. Finally, narrow your search to the speakers that exhibit these specific traits. I prefer combining a speaker with a defined low-end with a speaker that emphasizes the top-end. I’ve even found that speakers I thought were once too harsh or ice-picky on the top-end sounded really good in a mix. The other speaker seems to tame that harshness and makes it a welcomed detail.

I can assure you it is difficult enough to recommend just one speaker to someone due to the subjectivity of guitar tone. What sounds good to me might not do it for you and vice versa. We all have different preferences and different ears. I receive positive feedback all the time on speaker pairings that I would have never thought about trying. The possibilities are nearly endless and you have the potential to dial in a truly unique tone. I encourage you to open your mind and ears to speaker mixing, do your homework and have fun experimenting. I know you’ll be surprised!



Anthony “Big Tony” Lucas
is a guitarist and Senior Lab Technician at Eminence Speaker LLC, where he specializes in guitar-speaker design and customer support. Big Tony has been with Eminence for over 10 years and is responsible for many well-known guitar speaker designs.


----------



## solarburn

Thanks Marty. Great read.


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## MartyStrat54

Here's my favorite paragraph from the Weber page.

Additional comments submitted by Joe Breher: Jim Marshall, the man who gave us the world's most emulated sealed box guitar amp speaker enclosure, was recently interviewed by a popular guitar magazine. In the interview, he stated that the dimensions for his cabinet were dictated by the smallest practical cabinet that would fit 4-12" speakers. Evidently, no thought whatsoever was given to the acoustical properties of the cabinet.

Sort of like how he picked out his transformers.


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## MartyStrat54

I need to do a little posting so this thread doesn't die. If you have any speaker info or links you would like to share please post them to this thread.

I think it's a shame that new speaker question are posted in new threads, when they could be asked here and I would be glad to help you.

If you have any speaker questions, fire away.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I tried an Eminence Swamp Thang with a Governor and it sounded really good.

I had ordered two Texas Heat and two Governor's in 16 ohm to do up a 412 cab. However, I thought I would see how the Governor sounded up against the Swamp Thang.

Buying all of these tubes and speakers is getting expensive.


----------



## MartyStrat54

New clips from Warehouse Guitar Speakers. Veteran30 (V30 Replacement)

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/Veteran30/WGS Veteran 30.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/cl..._crunch_chords_gretch_double_coil_pickups.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/cl...0_power_chords_gretch_double_coil_pickups.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/cl...0_power_chords_gretch_double_coil_pickups.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/cl...solo_guitar_strat_single_coil_neck_pickup.mp3

WGS HM75 (Replacement for a G12-75)

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/HM75/HM75 Clean LoneStar 1.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/HM75/HM75 Clean LoneStar 2.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/HM75/HM75 Recto 1.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/HM75/HM75 Recto 2.mp3

WGS Green Beret (Replacement for G12M Greenback)

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/Green_Beret/WGS GB2.mp3

http://www.warehousespeakers.com/clips/Green_Beret/WGS GB.mp3

For more sound clips, go to WGS and select the speaker you want more info on. Most of them have sound clips at the bottom of the page.


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## MartyStrat54

More speaker testing coming soon. I have lots of Eminence speakers to play around with. I can't wait to fire them up with a good amp.


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## MartyStrat54

Well the Texas Heat speakers sound pretty damn good by themselves. I think I will try one with the Swamp Thang and see how that compares to a Governor and a Swamp Thang.

The ideal pairing is the Texas Heat and the Governor and I will be doing that in a 412 cab.


----------



## slowhand

I've never liked eminence speakers. Just not for me.

I like very old and vintage celestion or EV speakers about the best I've tried.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I think the old Celestions do sound better, but it's hard to find a set of four that are truly original. If you do, the cones are usually dried up and the paper is brittle, so the original sound is not there anymore. This is something I have to be aware of when I buy vintage speakers. Guitar speakers seem to get a lot of abuse and it makes finding good one's difficult. I knew a guy who bought a 1960 cab with some original Greenbacks and when he cranked his amp, three of the cones disintegrated and the fourth one split. Boy he lost his ass on that one. (He brought it to our shop for reconing.)

I started using Eminence years ago. When I was the service manager for a pro audio shop in Phoenix I got to see what came in for repairs and Eminence was a reliable speaker. There are so many companies making speakers. Of course, Eminence is the largest in the world and supply more amp companies with speakers than any other speaker company.

To be honest, I don't like Celestions and I don't run them in any of my amps. All were pulled and sold on EBAY. (And Celestions do not bring very much money, as I have sold many Celestions, some for $20 each.) Those 80 watt Wolverines that came in my TSL602's were absolutely horrible. I still have them, because if I try to sell them, I'll probably only get $10 apiece.


----------



## solarburn

I've got a couple of Veteran 30's and I like them alot. Just a bit darker or smoother compared to a V30 but very close. I would like to try those Green Beret's sometime...


----------



## Purgasound

I've got two 4x12 cabs with G12T-75's and two with Vintage 30's. So far I like the 75's a lot. I've spent a lot of time dialing in my tone based around those cabinets since I've had them longer and now I'm still working on using the 30's. I like them but I feel like they are adding too much distortion to my tone.

I pulled an old combo amp down off the shelf the other day and it has two Celestion Silver Series V12-80 speakers in it. Anyone know anything about these? I cannot find any information on them whatsoever. I can't really give an honest opinion on what they sound like because I've never heard them through a good amplifier. Any help would be much appreciated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those Veteran 30's do sound good. Probably sound a little better with a brighter amp.


----------



## slowhand

vintage celestions live. These are original and about the best I've played. 
© Brian Fechino


----------



## MartyStrat54

American Viking said:


> I pulled an old combo amp down off the shelf the other day and it has two Celestion Silver Series V12-80 speakers in it. Anyone know anything about these? I cannot find any information on them whatsoever. I can't really give an honest opinion on what they sound like because I've never heard them through a good amplifier. Any help would be much appreciated.



AV-I left you some info on that other thread you bumped. I was on it today, but I can't remember what it is. Anyway the V12-80 was a "Silver Series" speaker. This was a cheaper line of speakers, but still made in England. They are discontinued. The review on them was that they sound like a brighter V30.

One guy said he turned the treble down to 2 with these speakers. They are probably okay speakers. If you can, try them mixed with one of your 75's. I mean everybody likes V30's and G12-75's and the V12 is supposed to sound like a brighter V30, maybe it will sound good.


----------



## Purgasound

Cool. I found this sound byte, god only knows how old it is but as long as it still works. Short, sweet and to the point. It shows G12M Greenback, G12T-75, Vintage 30, and V12-80 Silver Series in that order.
http://www.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/MP3/celestioncomparison.mp3


----------



## Purgasound

What I meant to ask in the other thread was how does the V12-80 compare to the G12-80, or are they not even close to the same speaker? 

They don't sound too bad in the clip, I've never heard a G12-80 up close though.


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## MartyStrat54

I would say completely different.


----------



## solarburn

Marty have you heard of these speakers? Pretty spendy...

Austin Speaker Works


----------



## thrawn86

Man, I think my mind is made up. When I build my cab.....eventually ....I'm going with those Warehouse Veterans. I like the Green Beret's too, but the Vets are wicked.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Man, I think my mind is made up. When I build my cab.....eventually ....I'm going with those Warehouse Veterans. I like the Green Beret's too, but the Vets are wicked.



They sound good Thrawn. I have 2 of them and I was pleased for sure.


----------



## jcmjmp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I hate the toppiness(high end)of the T-75's. I like V30's though especially in a band mix. A good mix I like is a k100 and a V30. Avatar cabs are nice for the price IMO.



The G12T-75s have gone through some minor changes it seems and I find that the older ones seem to sound better. I like the G12T-75 combined with another speaker to bring out some mids.

The early ones had a vent on the back.

I use Celestion speakers exclusively. I have a bunch and each have their place. I have:

*G12-Century*: 80w. Excellent speaker with flat mids, solid low end without being boomy and good top end. Lightweight too! This is one of my favorite speakers because it really showcases the amp's mids. Extremely sensitive @ 102db. I like this speaker with all the amps I have but with the JCM800 2203/2204, they can get real loud and they're not so practical unless you have an attenuator.

*G12H-30 70th*: 30w. Nice with a lot of shimmer in the top end. Feels more solid than a G12M but not as warm sounding. This is a bright speaker but gets better with time. 

*G12M-25 (UK Version)*: 25w. Good speaker for playing old blues and classic brit rock. The bass is a little loose, the mids are what I call the reference in terms of mids response and the top end is smooth. Nice for bright amps like Marshalls. Great mids that make any guitar sing. 

*V30 (UK & Chinese)*: 60w. Good bass but not as warm as the G12T-75 or Century. High mid spike, which makes it good for a slightly mid scooped amp like the Jubilee and DSL amps. The high end is a cross between the G12H-30 70th and the G12T-75 IMO.

*G12T-75 (UK)*: 75w. Great speaker for tight bass and solid lead lines. The amount of bass I can get with this speaker is pretty amazing, sometimes, a little too much so watch it with the bass controls on your amp. The G12T-75 is a slightly mid scooped speaker. This is a good hard rock & metal speaker. Its low sensitivity makes it a good pairing with loud amps. Crank up the mids on the amp and you should be happy. 

*G12-65 (UK)*: 65w. Another one of my favorites. This speaker reminds me somewhat of the G12M-25s I have. The top end is smooth and its great at taming the high end of some amps. Lows are warm and tighter that a G12M but looser than a G12T-75 and the mids seem to be a cross between the G12M and G12H 70th. The sound of this speaker really wraps around you and interacts so well with the guitar, especially strats. The mids are complex and I would tend to say that it emphasizes the low mids.

My want list is G12C-25s and G12H-30 (Greenback).


----------



## MartyStrat54

JCMJMP

Thanks for that review of your personal stash of speakers. When it comes to Celestions, I tend to like the 30 watt models.

Again, thanks for taking the time to post.


----------



## solarburn

Did you check these or just not interested hehe?

Austin Speaker Works


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you check these or just not interested hehe?
> 
> Austin Speaker Works



239$ US$ Seems alot for an untested speaker don't ya think ?


----------



## solarburn

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> 239$ US$ Seems alot for an untested speaker don't ya think ?



It is for me HT. Thats why I need you to buy a couple and try them out for me. I don't want to waste my money ya know...?

Some guy at TGP started a thread on these and loves one of the models. I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard or tried them. I'm not buying any.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you check these or just not interested hehe?
> 
> Austin Speaker Works



They don't even give any specs on their products. The most expensive speaker they sell is a repainted Celestion with their cone, spider and voice coil. Now you should see why I like finding old Bell Alnico speakers. They probably sound better than this. 

If you go back on this thread, I posted pic's of my Bell Alnico's. I have them loaded in a 412 cab and they are creamy smooth. Turns a harsh, treble stricken amp into a purring kitty.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> They don't even give any specs on their products. The most expensive speaker they sell is a repainted Celestion with their cone, spider and voice coil. Now you should see why I like finding old Bell Alnico speakers. They probably sound better than this.
> 
> If you go back on this thread, I posted pic's of my Bell Alnico's. I have them loaded in a 412 cab and they are creamy smooth. Turns a harsh, treble stricken amp into a purring kitty.



Oh your Bell's definitely caught my attention especially with the description you gave. Would love to have that cab.


----------



## solarburn

I didn't realize the Ragin Cajun was a 10in speaker. I don't want a 10in speaker unless its a 410 cab...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I didn't realize the Ragin Cajun was a 10in speaker. I don't want a 10in speaker unless its a 410 cab...



Yeah it's a ten-inch. I know I have at least two on them around here. Some of their other more popular 10's are the LIL' BUDDY, Delta Demon and the Copperhead.

I like the RC and the Copperhead the best. I never thought about mixing an RC with a Copperhead. I may have just stumbled onto something.


----------



## solarburn

I just got done sampling the Swamp Thang, Texas Heat and the Cannabis Rex. These sound pretty close to each other in the clips. Some of the other speakers were quite a bit different in sound. The Private Jack and the Govenor were good too. Now I'm just sampling the overdrive clips not the clean or heavy. Just wanted to focus on one thing between all of them. These sound like they would be great rock speakers judging just from those clips.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it's a ten-inch. I know I have at least two on them around here. Some of their other more popular 10's are the LIL' BUDDY, Delta Demon and the Copperhead.
> 
> I like the RC and the Copperhead the best. I never thought about mixing an RC with a Copperhead. I may have just stumbled onto something.



I think a 410 of the Ragin's would be great for blues and rock. I like the clean clip on these too. I've never had a 410 cab...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know lead players that would only play a 410 cab. Let's face it, a ten-inch speaker has completely different parameters then a 12-inch. On the other hand, one of the best blues players I personally new played through two, 15-inch JBL D-130's. These are 105dB with 1 watt speakers and go up to 5KHz which is high for a fifteen. He eventually switched to 12-inch Eminence speakers. This was way before the Redcoats and the Patriots. I think he went with V128's. The fact is some guys like 10-inch speakers for their "bite." The 12-inch has more low-mids and is thicker sounding. Most guys are used to this and so a ten-inch sounds too bright. However, these new 10-inch speakers are pretty ballsy and I think four of them in the right size cab would be pretty awesome.


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## Brian9

I have a 4x12 that I have wired, well, I would hate to say stereo and get banned... Or is it dual mono...? Whatever the term, it's 2 2x12's in one cab.

I have them wired in an x pattern. One side of the X is a Celestion V30 (60 watt 100 dB) and an Eminence Wizard (75 watt 103 dB). I am really happy with this combination. The sensitivity rating is 3 dB apart but I don't notice. My ears like it so its staying that way.

The questions lie in the other side of the X. Currently its an Eminence Private Jack (50 watt, 101 dB) along with a Mesa Black Shadow C90 (90 watt ??dB). I have searched high and low for the dB sensitivity of the C90 but can't find it. I'm not liking this combination and want to replace one of them. I'm not sure what I don't like about the combination, its giving me a buzziness..? My guess is that the PJ is designed for early breakup and that must be the sound I don't like, but can't be sure.

Should I replace the private jack with a wizard since the C90 is very similar to the V30? Another option would be to replace the PJ with a Texas Heat which is 15 bucks cheaper.

Thoughts?


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## MartyStrat54

Brian9 said:


> Should I replace the private jack with a wizard since the C90 is very similar to the V30? Another option would be to replace the PJ with a Texas Heat which is 15 bucks cheaper.
> 
> Thoughts?



I looked all over and could not find any spec's on the C90. I hate when companies do that. Okay this speaker is made for Mesa by Celestion. I wonder if it is custom, or just a repackaged Celestion? I would say it is in the 100dB range. Now the Private Jack does not break up easy. It is rated at moderate and that is the same as the Texas Heat. Now a Governor and a Texas Heat go together nicely and in fact the Texas Heat matches up well with several of the Redcoat speakers. It would be difficult for me to say what to try, especially since there are no parameters to consider. At least with Eminence they give you comparison charts, frequency charts and sound clips to make a decision. Your idea of a Wizard with the C90 might be the better choice.


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## Brian9

Thanks Marty.

I guess I was on the right track. Its either The Wizard or Texas Heat. I like the price of the Texas Heat but I'm leery of it only having a 38 oz magnet. The wizard is 50 (or 56).

I guess I'll flip a coin. I'd like to order one today so that its on a truck over the weekend to get here.


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## Brian9

Actually, I think I'll take the gill cloth off and inspect for damage to that PJ. If you say it has slow breakup, I shouldn't be getting any buzz from it.


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## MartyStrat54

It has moderate breakup which puts it in the middle of the scale. If you are getting physical noises, then that needs to be investigated. Could be a loose dust cap or speaker lead wires touching the cone. I would get a buddy to get beside the cab and have you play some lower power chords and see if he can hear a problem. 

To check for a loose dust cap, take a loop of wide masking tape and press part of it on the dust cap. Lift upwards and watch to see if part of the cap lifts up. Sometimes you have to run an exacto knife blade under the cap to see if there is a "hole" in the glue. Air will pump through this small hole and it will sound like crap. I've seen guys go nuts trying to find something like this.

The speaker leads are the wires going from the terminal to the speaker cone. Sometimes they are installed wrong and will touch the spider or the cone. Either way it will make a buzzing sound.

Of course, check to make sure all of the mounting screws are tight.


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## Brian9

OK. Investigation in progress. Thanks for the help Marty.

BTW, I flipped the cab upside down (top speakers now on bottom) I don't hear the buzziness now. I'm guessing the top speakers dominate the sound since my ear is always above the cabinet.

I'm going to switch the position of the c90 and the PJ. I'll check for wires touching and cone damage.


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## janarn

Much good info about speakers here, but to me original vintage Celestions, are half of the Plexi sound.
And I never had problems with my vintage Celestions, and I´ve had a few.

I have A/B tested my old cabs with new cabs, and they don´t sound the same.

I have had original 15w, 20w, 25w, and 30w Celestions, and if you have an old amp, you will need these speakers to get the right sound.

They will also work well with newer amps. I know Soldano SLO players that won´t use anything else than original Marshall basketweave cabs with their amps.
To me old speakers and cabs has more influence on my sound than NOS tubes.


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## MartyStrat54

I agree with you on old Marshall's using old Celestion's. However, I think the amps need those Mullard tubes in there to sound their best.


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## Brian9

Moved PJ to bottom right; C90 to top left. No sign of damage or wires touching. Buzziness has dissipated. My deduction is that each speaker's position in a 4x12 can have drastic changes from top to bottom.


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## MartyStrat54

Another letter from Big Tony of Eminence.

Hi Marty,

Sorry for the delay. We've been out quite a bit over the holidays and our year end inventory shutdown. 

We greatly appreciate your support and your efforts to convert people over to Eminence!

I don't think mixing speakers is a fad. It has become a very popular thing to do. I like doing it and feel that you can get a lot more fullness, detail and complexity over just one type....assuming you get two that work well together and that compliment your gear. Of course, guitar tone is very subjective, so what works "well" depends on what you need/want it to sound like.

Our recommendation is to stay within 2dB so that one is not significantly louder, so Texas Heat and a Governor would be fine. To me a Texas Heat sounds a little bigger than it's rated anyway. There are a lot of different mixes that I've either heard myself or been told about by other players. My personal favorites are Wizard/Governor and Red Fang with either the Wizard or Governor. There are tons of good pairings, it just depends on what you're looking to do. A good way to find a starting point is to start with your favorite speaker and decide what characteristics would make it even more interesting. Then you choose the other speaker that exhibits those characteristics.

Cannabis Rex and Canis Major also are great for taming top end. They are both even warmer than RW&B and they have fatter low end. Canis Major is the Alnico version of Cannabis Rex. It sounds more focused and has tighter, punchier, less lingering bass. Plus, you get the natural compression of an Alnico speaker.

Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker LLC
anthony.lucas@eminence.com
502-845-5622 ext. 341


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## MartyStrat54

I haven't tried the Wizard, but I know it is one of their more popular British voiced speakers. I think I will stick to my plan and go with a 412 of Texas Heat and Governors.

Man I wish I had about 50 pair of speakers to try. That would be fun.


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## solarburn

Look what Eminence is up to:

Eminence Introduces Flux Density Modulation Technology - Premier Guitar

A little bit of the article:

Eminence engineers have collaborated to introduce a simple, affordable, yet revolutionary technology to mechanically manipulate the flux path and relative densities within a loudspeaker motor structure. The result is a patent-pending innovation lending guitarists the ability to achieve high power amplifier tone at lower volumes simply with the turn of a dial on the back of the speaker. “Using a speaker without attenuation circuits or other gadgets to facilitate amplifier distortion is the most logical engineering solution to an age old problem.” said Tom James, Design Engineer at Eminence. “Our method maintains fidelity in the signal path that can otherwise be compromised. The ability to adjust a speaker’s output in this manner simplifies life for today’s musician playing varied styles in a spectrum of venues.”


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## janarn

THE MARSHALL 4X12" SPEAKERS HISTORY. PART ONE. `62 - `79

Please help me out with this one. I know that many parts here can be wrong,
and that Marshall made many different things in the old days.

Well, here´s a try:

Marshall has always used Celestion speakers, and that´s a big part of the Marshall sound.
Marshall started out as a clone of the Fender Bassman 5F6A, but used english parts,
and most important, they used a closed back 1960 4x12" cab with Celestion speakers.@

The first speakers Marshall used were the T652. The same speaker as the Vox Blue. 
A 15w Alnico speaker that really has a great sound. The Marshall speakers didn´t have the magnet cover, or the colour of the Vox Blue,
so it was a dull looking grey speaker with a magnet that looked small.

These speakers were marked "Uxbridge road" from ´62 - June ´64,
and "Silverdale Road" from June ´64 to ´65/´66.

Then Marshall started using the famous Greenbacks.
I have seen pictures of Greenbacks from January ´66, and I have some from March and April myself.

The early Greenbacks were usually G12 M 16 ohm, 20w, but the speakers made for PA columns were 8 ohms.
The G12M speakers were upgraded to 25w in ´67/68. The stickers were often changed, so it´s hard to say exactly when.

Another Greenback were introduced in ´67. The G12H 25w. They were the speakers that Marshall used in their heavy duty cabs. The 1982.

From ´67 Marshall had three 4x12" cabs. The 1960 cab with G12M T 1221 with lead cones. 102 003, or xx1777.
The 1935 Bass cab with G12M 014 cone, and the 1982 cab with G12 H T1281 speakers.

The stack was also introduced late ´65/ early ´66, and that made the cab models "a" and "b".
In ´66/´67 the "b" model was 6" taller then the "a", and the later "b" cab.
The start of the stack was the famous six 8x12" cabs that was made for The Who and The Small Faces.

The G12 H speaker was upgraded to 30w in ´67/´68, but most of the speakers after the upgrade don´t have any stickers.
They just have the green magnet cover. I have seen pictures of G12H speakers from late ´68, with 25w stickers.
That is wrong, but could tell us that Celestion still had not got their 30w sticker in late ´68.

I know of a lot of G12M´s with 25w stickers from ´68, so I´m sure the G12 H also was upgraded.
The 1960, and 1935 cabs were upgraded from 75w to 100w in ´70,
and the 1982 cab were upgraded from 100w to 120w.

Cabs used white grillcloth from ´62 to ´66.
Pinstipe grillcloth from ´66 to ´68.
Basketweave grillcloth from ´68 to ´71
Chequerboard grillcloth from ´´71 to ´75 (´81 in USA)

Speakers had the famous Pulsonic cones up to ´74.

And that´s how the Marshall 4x12" cabs were up to ´79


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## kayn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Thanks for taking the time to relay all of this info. I see that you are another player that replaced his G12T-75's. I've never been a fan of them. They just don't seem to mess well with certain Marshall amps, especially a bright amp. The treble gets a little harsh for me.
> 
> I had a 4 x 12 cab with four of the Vox/Wharfdale speakers. They are not bad sounding speakers. In fact, someone tried out that cab and bought it on the spot. I got my Vox/Wharfdale speakers on EBAY for cheap. So if you are looking for some nice speakers cheap, keep your eyes open on EBAY or CL's for these speakers. Some players buy these Vox amps and pull these speakers out right away to put the alnico's in there. So most of the time these speakers are basically new.
> 
> I have built some lower cost cabinets and used the MOD speakers. I have only used the 12-inch. Yes, they seem to be a little darker than most 12-inch guitar speakers. It was what the customer wanted, but I personally did not like them.
> 
> In your AC30 you say you have Celestion Blues? Are these the G12 (aka P-A-G12) speakers? Those are very pricey, around $280 each. I'd also like to hear more about the G12-65's. I've heard some good things about those speakers, but I've never played through any of them.
> 
> Oh, your dad has a nice rig BTW.*



Hi Marty.

I wolud like to know if you recommend the GT75 for a TSL601 1X12 COMBO, im thinkin in that spaker or in the G12 Century or V30 but the problem whit this speaker its the power handling its 60 watts just like the TSL 601, or what speaker do you recommend?


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## MartyStrat54

You might have to consider using an Eminence speaker such as a Man 'O War. I have a pair in a TSL122. They are rated at 120W and they work in an open back cab.

You see, there are other parameters to consider than just wattage. If you go back and read the article by Anthony Lucas of Eminence, you will see that they don't put a whole lot on speaker wattage. Not that you can ignore it, but you can push it. By this I mean a V30 is 60 watts. How often are you going to be playing this speaker with the amp dimed? If your answer is a lot, I would say move on to at least an 80 watt speaker. If not, you could probably get by just fine.

You might want to go back and look at some of the different Eminence speakers. Another one that sounds good with a Marshall is a Texas Heat.

There are a lot of Celestion clone speakers out there as well. Go through the various links and do some comparisons. That's the purpose of this link. It is an aid, but you have to do a little work yourself. If you get one picked out, let me know what it is.


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## 00jett

Hey Marty, iv been reading some of your posts lately on cabinet size and designs. Your posts intrigued me so iv been doing some google learning on thiele & small parameters, but i was wondering if you knew of any good resources i could look into. My research is just to understand what you guys (that know way more than me) are talking about. Thanks!


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## MartyStrat54

LoudspeakerBuilder.ca - (Thiele-Small Parameters)

http://documents.jordan-usa.com/Famous-Articles/Thiele_small_parameters_measurement.pdf

Go over this. Keep in mind that all the complicated stuff has been reduced into the TS parameters. A lot of advanced math was necessary to produce these parameters so that they could be understood and used by everyone.

The beauty of TS parameters is that you can take a guitar speaker and put it in an enclosure that is the perfect size for the best frequency response. Some speakers by their design do not work in a sealed cab. Some do not work in an open back or vented cab. The TS parameters let you quickly determine if the speaker you have selected will work in say a 412 cab.

Marshall did not take anything into consideration when they made the first full stack. They made the cab as small as possible, so they could make it as cheap as possible. This is why some speakers sound good in a 1960 cab and some do not. When someone takes four speakers and puts them in a 1960 cab and the speakers need to be in a bigger cab, the bass rolls off quickly. This leads to a thin sound. Most guitar speakers have a high resonant frequency, say 85Hz, so they will work in a smaller box. However, say you want the best bass out of the speaker and you use the TS parameters to build a cab that allows this same speaker to go into the upper 70's. That would be a tighter, more ballsy cab.

You have to realize that TS parameters are mainly concerned with the bass, or mid bass speaker. Once you get above 120Hz, the TS parameters are not effective. TS parameters were developed to get the most bass out of a speaker. Again, guitar speakers are not bass heavy, unless you use a JBL D123. These are great guitar speakers with heavy bass. TS parameters are a must for designing Bass guitar, Keyboards, or PA Sub enclosures. Some of these cabs are designed to reproduce a low A which is 28Hz. To do this, you need a very rugged speaker designed to produce sub tones. The cabinet is usually 8 to 10 cubic feet (or bigger) and ported (vented).

I have computer software programs. One of them is from Eminence and is pre-loaded with all of their speakers. You can also add custom or other brands to the program as well. It's cool seeing what kind of a bass curve you can get with different guitar speakers.

There is plenty of free reading on the Internet. My main search engine for many years is dogpile.com 

I like it over Google. I hope this helps and if you have any other questions, just let me know.


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## 00jett

Thanks Marty, this is excellent. I know what my studying is going to be for the next while.


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## MartyStrat54

Well the beauty of it is once you grasp the concept, you can quickly tell how big a cab needs to be for certain guitar speakers. And like I said, there are tricks you can do to make a speaker "think" it is in a bigger box. One is to use more fill in the box and the other is an Aperiodic Vent.

ScanSpeak Aperiodic Vent from Madisound

Just read up on this stuff and there is plenty more on the Internet. Good luck.


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## BluesRocker

Hows the tone of the Celestion Alnicos compared to the others like the V30, G12T-75, and the Greenies.


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## MartyStrat54

Some people think they are hot stuff, but I think they are over priced and you can spend less for something better. Lots of great alnico speakers out there.


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## Rockin_Lisa

OMG! I looked at the threads you started and found this one. What happened to this? This is a kick ass thread. You even had researched WGS speakers and that is what I use, the HM75's. They rip. Come on. This is the thread I like. Get it going. I'll help you. Speakers I can talk about.


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## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> OMG! I looked at the threads you started and found this one. What happened to this? This is a kick ass thread. You even had researched WGS speakers and that is what I use, the HM75's. They rip. Come on. This is the thread I like. Get it going. I'll help you. Speakers I can talk about.



Well Lisa PM'd me to try and revive this thread. Maybe if it gets back out there some more people will add to it. Joe was up on this thread. He's good for a post or two.

I will have to motivate myself all over again.

I will say that I ordered more 10-inch and 12-inch Eminence speakers for testing and so far so good. Eight hundred bucks worth and that don't get you a lot when they are around $80 each. Also, Lisa stated that she uses WGS. I went back and listened to the clip of the HM75 and that is an ass ripper. I really liked the distortion sound. Classic squeal harmonics sounded great.

Okay. I will give this another shot.


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## 00jett

I'm going to be testing a few of WGS speaker combinations soon with a friend of mine. He owns 3 custom built Morris Amp heads and has 2x12 cabinets coming out the ying yang. Iv lost count of the total amount he has but we've been messing with the veteran 30 and reaper combo (pretty common) in one cab, ET-65 and g12h-30 combo in another, and he has some eminence speakers coming in for a 3rd cab (can't remember which ones). We will have my 4x12 with celestions there and if im not mistaken he is getting another cab back from a fellow guitar player with EV-12L speakers in it. Personally i can't wait to seen how the celestion 'clones' (so to speak) stack up against their counter parts. Ill post our findings when were done if anyones interested!


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## MartyStrat54

Thank you. Yes that would be great. I actually think the WGS speakers are worth the money. I would say I like the sound of their "75" over the sound of their "Vet 30." Just my opinion. 

Please post any speaker info. I work a lot with Eminence, so I am always trying their new stuff. Another killer Eminence speaker that does it all is the Delta Pro.

You can use it either for bass or guitar. Sort of like a 600 watt EV12L.


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## solarburn

I want to try an Eminence Wizard or some type of Alnico. Maybe a 12in Red Fang or a Celestion Gold. I'm looking for a speaker to go in a 112 cab for the Monza.

I've used a Veteran 30 and a K100 so far. My goal is to sweeten the mids and keep the highs musical. The Monza has a beautiful healthy low end. Highs are not harsh. And yes my thoughts are all over the place cause I'm loopy tired hehe.

What say you?


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## MartyStrat54

Well believe it or not, one of the tone packs offered by Eminence is a Wizard and a Red Fang. They are both 103dB speakers, but the Red Fang is only rated at around 30 watts (RMS) and the Wizard is higher. However, if you go back a few pages and read the Anthony Lucas comments, he said not to worry so much about power handling. If you had a double pair of these in a 412 cab, it would be rated at 109dB with one watt. You would be loud as hell at 20 watts and killing people any louder than that.


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## MartyStrat54

From chop883:

The Man o War is the Eminence Solution to the Celestion G12T-75. However, my ears tell me that they are not apples to apples direct replacements. Which speaker you would prefer would depend on your amp, cabinet, etc. I have been using man o wars for about 2 years now and they are the only speaker that has made it two years without getting swapped or sold, and they never will be. These are now the benchmark speaker by which I gauge every other speaker. They just sound good. Very little EQing is required. Pop them in your favorite cab and play. No trying to get huge of the giant mid shelf (V-30s). These speakers LOVE high gain, and if you run a Mesa Dual or Triple Recto, these are a must. The Man o War is the only speaker I have found that can pull a triple rectofier out of the "mud". Do you feel like your recto has a 2" thick blanket over the speaker cab? These have a brighter top end than the G12T-75 and really perfect a recto. I also use these with my strat with a Peavey JSX and they are awesome. I used these in a 4 x 12" with a Marshall DSL and to my ear, they seemed very bright compared to the normal Marshall cab with G12T-75s. This is the only situation where I would have prefered the rolled off top end of the Celestion, but in all other cases, this speaker has been like pure gold, and they love lots of volume, but also sound great in the bedroom with a POD for practice. I have owned tons of speakers, amps, cabs, guitars, stomboxes, etc and been chasing tone forever, all kinds of tones for blues, country, metal, etc and these speakers, as I said, are now my defacto standard by which all other speakers and cabs are measured.


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## 00jett

Hey Marty aren't you using Man-O-War with one of your TSL combos? How do you find the Low end firmness of the speaker? I find when i compare my 1960a cab which has the v30s and g12h-30s to a standard 1960 cab with g12t-75s I love the pulled back top end and thicker mid section all around but i do miss that nice firm low end that the 75s have. (though they can get boomy if not set right)


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## MartyStrat54

Yes, I have Man 'O Wars in my TSL122. These will make your teeth rattle. I have not played it too much as I am using my DSL401's and 602's more. I will say that this is without a doubt the loudest 212 combo I have ever played and I owned a Peavey MACE with Black Widows. 

These speakers sound completely different when placed in a closed back cab. They get tighter, but the aggressive mids are still there. The bottom end goes from "spacious" to "tight." These are hard rock/heavy metal speakers. You can play other genre through them, but they were designed for modern metal.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well believe it or not, one of the tone packs offered by Eminence is a Wizard and a Red Fang. They are both 103dB speakers, but the Red Fang is only rated at around 30 watts (RMS) and the Wizard is higher. However, if you go back a few pages and read the Anthony Lucas comments, he said not to worry so much about power handling. If you had a double pair of these in a 412 cab, it would be rated at 109dB with one watt. You would be loud as hell at 20 watts and killing people any louder than that.



LOL!

The Monza is plenty big sounding and I'm a believer now that DR. Z builds even his low wattage amps to be played out. I'm pretty damn sure both the Wizard and RF with a sensitivity rating of 103db's won't be short on volume hehe. I like clips of the Wizard I heard. Probably will try it in one of my 112's.

I didn't realize the 12in RF was 30 watts. Their 10in Red Fang is 50 watts and it is offered in a combo version Monza. Guys have been taking it out and playing having no volume issues to complain about during practice or on stage. Most are micing on stage but the 10in combo version has turned out to be a great "grab and go" with built in Brakelite attenuator on the cab.

I may try both. I have 2 112 cabs I can use. I also have a 212 cab.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, I have Man 'O Wars in my TSL122. These will make your teeth rattle. I have not played it too much as I am using my DSL401's and 602's more. I will say that this is without a doubt the loudest 212 combo I have ever played and I owned a Peavey MACE with Black Widows.
> 
> These speakers sound completely different when placed in a closed back cab. They get tighter, but the aggressive mids are still there. The bottom end goes from "spacious" to "tight." These are hard rock/heavy metal speakers. You can play other genre through them, but they were designed for modern metal.



Alot of the "Modern High Gain amp" guys are matching these speakers up to their amps. I hadn't heard of these until a few of the guys at HCAF started praising them quite awhile back. I smiled when I first found out you use them too. I was like Martimus is pummeling that Marshall!(Heavy Metal scream!) 

Course I don't go into that territory so it didn't apply to me much.


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## MartyStrat54

Okay Joe. Good news. I went to Eminence's website and both the 10 and 12-inch RF's are rated at 50 watts RMS. Makes sense, because they both share the same spider, voice coil and magnet assembly. That's what happens when you get info from a retailers website instead of the factory.

And I did see that the 10-inch RF was the loudest ten that they make.
1W=102dB (The 12 is rated at 103dB.)
2W=105dB
4W=108dB
8W=111dB
16W=114dB (2 10's=117dB and a 410 cab would be a massive 120dB with less than 20 watts.)

I'd say 114dB would be pretty damn loud with the Monza and a 10" RF. Now if you want to pay for shipping, I can send you a Copperhead and a Rajun Cajun to try out. What sucks is the RF's have gone up in price by about $45. I mean they are $270 each now. That is expensive and in the same price range as Celestion Alinco Blues.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay Joe. Good news. I went to Eminence's website and both the 10 and 12-inch RF's are rated at 50 watts RMS. Makes sense, because they both share the same spider, voice coil and magnet assembly. That's what happens when you get info from a retailers website instead of the factory.
> 
> And I did see that the 10-inch RF was the loudest ten that they make.
> 1W=102dB (The 12 is rated at 103dB.)
> 2W=105dB
> 4W=108dB
> 8W=111dB
> 16W=114dB (2 10's=117dB and a 410 cab would be a massive 120dB with less than 20 watts.)
> 
> I'd say 114dB would be pretty damn loud with the Monza and a 10" RF. Now if you want to pay for shipping, I can send you a Copperhead and a Rajun Cajun to try out. What sucks is the RF's have gone up in price by about $45. I mean they are $270 each now. That is expensive and in the same price range as Celestion Alinco Blues.



Thanks for putting down the stats. Gives it to me straight up what to expect volume wise. Damn thats a bummer the prices went up cause these speakers are expensive. The amp smokes through what I have already but I think I can get it even sweeter with some other speakers.

Well I got some things to think about here before I pull the trigger. I am for sure going to hook it up to some new speakers. I think though I will probably stick with 12in versions cause that what will pop right into my 112's unless I get a 210 cab hehe. I appreciate the offer with your speakers and will keep it in mind for sure.

Have you ever played a 210 cab Marty? I hear the 410's are nice but I wonder how the 210's sound...If I had a 210 I would try the RC or RF's.


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## MartyStrat54

Well, I have 110, 112, 210, 212, 410 and 412 utility cabs. They are just raw wood cabs with hardware (corners, feet and handles). The 110, 112, 210 and 212 cabs have 1-inch thick Medite backs. This is so strong and stiff I do not need a brace. This allows the back to be taken off and a partial back is put on to test the speaker as an open back cab. The 410 and the 412 are designed for sealed use only.

As you know, a 10-inch speaker is just naturally brighter than a 12. Eminence has combated this with their HEMP cone speakers and this gives a smoother sound. If you take say a Copperhead and put it in a sealed 210 cab, it will be super tight and responsive. A sealed box will fatten up the bottom end. Now I have also got a 110 and 112 ported box and I can change the port length of the tube. If you put a Copperhead in a box tuned to 65Hz, it will deliver better bass than the sealed cab. I think a 410 "ported" cab with Copperheads would be a great sounding rig. If you wanted to thicken it up, you could go with an X pattern and use 2 Delta Demons and 2 Copperheads.

I used to play a 410 cab and it was the first time I ever played a Telecaster. That was when I was really getting into tone and trying out different stuff. The Tele on the neck pickup was pretty smooth and it cut in the mix with no problem (this was with an old, all tube peavey 60 watt amp). I didn't like the stock bridge pickup and had a DiMarzio humbucker put in. That was a nice combo. Really changed the character of the guitar. The humbucker leads were killer through those 410's. However, I shipped out from stateside to an overseas location and I sold the Peavey rig aand later I sold the Tele. 

I think that some guys are afraid of playing through 410's as their main rig. With today's speaker choices, there are a wide variety of 10-inch speakers. Some are traditional and bright sounding, but others are smooth and creamy.

And here's a thought. How about a cab with 2, 12-inch speakers and 2, 10-inch speakers? That could be a flavor you and I both might like.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I have 110, 112, 210, 212, 410 and 412 utility cabs. They are just raw wood cabs with hardware (corners, feet and handles). The 110, 112, 210 and 212 cabs have 1-inch thick Medite backs. This is so strong and stiff I do not need a brace. This allows the back to be taken off and a partial back is put on to test the speaker as an open back cab. The 410 and the 412 are designed for sealed use only.
> 
> As you know, a 10-inch speaker is just naturally brighter than a 12. Eminence has combated this with their HEMP cone speakers and this gives a smoother sound. If you take say a Copperhead and put it in a sealed 210 cab, it will be super tight and responsive. A sealed box will fatten up the bottom end. Now I have also got a 110 and 112 ported box and I can change the port length of the tube. If you put a Copperhead in a box tuned to 65Hz, it will deliver better bass than the sealed cab. I think a 410 "ported" cab with Copperheads would be a great sounding rig. If you wanted to thicken it up, you could go with an X pattern and use 2 Delta Demons and 2 Copperheads.
> 
> I used to play a 410 cab and it was the first time I ever played a Telecaster. That was when I was really getting into tone and trying out different stuff. The Tele on the neck pickup was pretty smooth and it cut in the mix with no problem (this was with an old, all tube peavey 60 watt amp). I didn't like the stock bridge pickup and had a DiMarzio humbucker put in. That was a nice combo. Really changed the character of the guitar. The humbucker leads were killer through those 410's. However, I shipped out from stateside to an overseas location and I sold the Peavey rig aand later I sold the Tele.
> 
> I think that some guys are afraid of playing through 410's as their main rig. With today's speaker choices, there are a wide variety of 10-inch speakers. Some are traditional and bright sounding, but others are smooth and creamy.
> 
> And here's a thought. How about a cab with 2, 12-inch speakers and 2, 10-inch speakers? That could be a flavor you and I both might like.



More great info! Thanx Marty. Yeah I wonder how a cab with 2 12's and 2 10's would sound...

Wish I had more money to play with so I could try some stuff with speakers. Well you have tried alot so when I start picking them to buy I'll run them by you see what ya think. Haven't rolled speakers yet hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's not cheap. I do a lot of odd jobs. I install sound systems. I make custom cabinets, I sell equipment. All of this means I have a need for speakers. Some items I buy need replacement speakers. Eminence makes their Legends Series. These are all of their best speakers they made until they came out with the Patriot and Redcoat Series. There are some dandy speakers in the Legends Series. The V123 (a V30 clone), the GB128 (Yeah, a Green Back clone), 1218 and 1258. These are all great sounding speakers that are reasonably priced.

Now the Patriot speakers have such a huge spread in tone. I would love to try them all, but even I can't afford that. I have tried around half of the Patriot line. The Redcoat Series is one that if you do your homework, there is a model that will be close to most of the popular Celestions (including the Legends Series.)

It still gives me a rush trying a new speaker. I sometimes wish I had a better selection of amps, because some speakers just sound better with certain amps.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sometimes wish I had a better selection of amps, because some speakers just sound better with certain amps.



So I assume you took all the jargon off your amps list because you're trying out some new hardware, correct? Very cool.

BTW, what happened with the Twister experiment? Sorry if i opened an old wound.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

No that's fine. Here is the latest. I got the amp back yesterday. I had a sound system to install in a church and I was tied up until tonight. I will try the amp out tomorrow and let you know if it is a go, or a bust.

Nothing was done to the amp, other than a new style bias trim pot was added.

It was fitted with all new Chinese tubes that I paid for. So before Sunday night, you will know what I have found out about the Twister.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, I hope that the Twister works out. If it doesn't, what are you going to do?

Anyway, I may have posted this on a different thread, but I have a custom 412 cab that is a bit thicker than a 1960. It has one and a half cubic feet more volume. The cab is loaded with WGS HM75's and they are really good. Marty has some links or sound clips on them. They clean up nice, but they love to get crunchy. Some of the best sounding power chords and riffs.

Don't be so narrow minded about the speakers you get. If you get what everybody else has then you will sound like everybody else. While the HM75's are clones of G12-75's, they really are two different sounding speakers.

I have a musician friend who is a bass player and his guitarist used the HM75's. He was using a 2203 with them. They sound different with my DSL100. I had been looking for speakers when I bought the cab unloaded. I went to the music stores and tried out several brands and several models. Then I heard the WGS HM75's and that sealed the deal. My brother loaded them and soldered all of the wires and it is a 16 ohm cab. I broke them in over a three week period and then I started playing them louder. They sound better the louder you play them. I am usually at 5 or 6 on my master volume. The gain varies on the material. However, 5 or 6 is pretty dang loud with a 412 cab.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay Joe. Good news. I went to Eminence's website and both the 10 and 12-inch RF's are rated at 50 watts RMS. Makes sense, because they both share the same spider, voice coil and magnet assembly. That's what happens when you get info from a retailers website instead of the factory.
> 
> And I did see that the 10-inch RF was the loudest ten that they make.
> 1W=102dB (The 12 is rated at 103dB.)
> 2W=105dB
> 4W=108dB
> 8W=111dB
> 16W=114dB (2 10's=117dB and a 410 cab would be a massive 120dB with less than 20 watts.)
> 
> I'd say 114dB would be pretty damn loud with the Monza and a 10" RF. Now if you want to pay for shipping, I can send you a Copperhead and a Rajun Cajun to try out. What sucks is the RF's have gone up in price by about $45. I mean they are $270 each now. That is expensive and in the same price range as Celestion Alinco Blues.



Just to validate your 30 watt finding that's what the 12in use to be rated at. Looks like they just recently changed it to 50 watts.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Marty, I hope that the Twister works out. If it doesn't, what are you going to do?
> 
> Anyway, I may have posted this on a different thread, but I have a custom 412 cab that is a bit thicker than a 1960. It has one and a half cubic feet more volume. The cab is loaded with WGS HM75's and they are really good. Marty has some links or sound clips on them. They clean up nice, but they love to get crunchy. Some of the best sounding power chords and riffs.
> 
> Don't be so narrow minded about the speakers you get. If you get what everybody else has then you will sound like everybody else. While the HM75's are clones of G12-75's, they really are two different sounding speakers.
> 
> I have a musician friend who is a bass player and his guitarist used the HM75's. He was using a 2203 with them. They sound different with my DSL100. I had been looking for speakers when I bought the cab unloaded. I went to the music stores and tried out several brands and several models. Then I heard the WGS HM75's and that sealed the deal. My brother loaded them and soldered all of the wires and it is a 16 ohm cab. I broke them in over a three week period and then I started playing them louder. They sound better the louder you play them. I am usually at 5 or 6 on my master volume. The gain varies on the material. However, 5 or 6 is pretty dang loud with a 412 cab.



I've got a couple Veteran 30's from WGS. I like em'. I don't like GT-75's cause of the scooped mids and harsh highs. Great lowend but I hate ice pick highs. Even though the HM-75 is a clone it sounds like they must be different and in a better way. Glad you're not ice picking your audiences out there hehe!

I'll check into these since you like them. Not for my Monza though but the Marshall.


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## Rockin_Lisa

I think Marty had posted some links or sound clips and they are awesome.


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## MartyStrat54

Here, this is more convenient. Only $69 folks. A real hard core 12-inch.

Warehouse Guitar Speakers | Product Detail


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## MartyStrat54

Was trying to bring a video of a 15 speaker shoot-out, but it didn't load, so I will try again.


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## MartyStrat54

Okay, I had to manually edit the URL to get the correct address. 

This was posted originally by AnthonyR. Thanks Anthony.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI]YouTube - 15 Speakers compared Celestion vs E.V. vs Eminence vs JBL vs Jensen vs Tone Tubby[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I had to manually edit the URL to get the correct address.
> 
> This was posted originally by AnthonyR. Thanks Anthony.
> 
> YouTube - 15 Speakers compared Celestion vs E.V. vs Eminence vs JBL vs Jensen vs Tone Tubby



I'd ran into this awhile back but it is worth watching a few times so thanks for posting. I'll check it out again.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here, this is more convenient. Only $69 folks. A real hard core 12-inch.
> 
> Warehouse Guitar Speakers | Product Detail



I do not like those clips. I hear that fizzy topend I hate in the first one.

I don't like their clips on the Veteran 30 either of which I have. You think they could put better sounding clips up. 

I'm sure they are way better in person just like my V30's turned out to be.

RL you're just going to have to send me plane tickets to come watch you play out and hear for myself!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I'm cranking them through 2-ways and a sub computer system with a 100 watt amp. You know what volume does to sound. The other thing is that a speaker is to a guitar as a guitar is to a speaker. In other words, the type of amp and how it is voiced will affect the speakers response...agreed?

When I listen to sound clips though say the laptop speakers, is that giving me a true representation of the clip. I try to listen to everything at a level I would expect to hear it at. This system on my computer is loud as f**k.

I don't know what you are using, but you have to realize little speakers and a 10 watt amp on a chip isn't going to create the real buzz.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I'm cranking them through 2-ways and a sub computer system with a 100 watt amp. You know what volume does to sound. The other thing is that a speaker is to a guitar as a guitar is to a speaker. In other words, the type of amp and how it is voiced will affect the speakers response...agreed?
> 
> When I listen to sound clips though say the laptop speakers, is that giving me a true representation of the clip. I try to listen to everything at a level I would expect to hear it at. This system on my computer is loud as f**k.
> 
> I don't know what you are using, but you have to realize little speakers and a 10 watt amp on a chip isn't going to create the real buzz.



Yeah you got a killer set up on your computer. Clips only get me interested and that's all I expect out of them. Too many variables in play to just rely on them. Some clips are better than others. I've heard good and bad even on my puny lil' speakers. Would love to have your's though hehe. My family wouldn't...


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## MartyStrat54

Well I wasn't trying to act the snob, it's just that I have to listen to stuff online that needs to be played with some balls. But you know, you have a point. Clips never do the speaker real justice. Until they are in your cab with your amp and your main guitar, you don't know what they are really going to sound like and some speakers sound great out of the box and some need two weeks to break in. Lots of shit to ponder, hey cowboy?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I wasn't trying to act the snob, it's just that I have to listen to stuff online that needs to be played with some balls. But you know, you have a point. Clips never do the speaker real justice. Until they are in your cab with your amp and your main guitar, you don't know what they are really going to sound like and some speakers sound great out of the box and some need two weeks to break in. Lots of shit to ponder, hey cowboy?



You's not a snob! 

Yeah that break in period can throw people if they don't take it seriously and judge performance right out of the box. Also trying different combinations going to be expensive no matter what you do. That's why I try to do my home work on speakers. It really helps when you know guys/girls that have used or are using speakers you want to try.


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## MartyStrat54

I know all about that expensive part. A good pair is going to run you around $150. I try to buy from a retailer that ships them free. I buy most of my Eminence from Parts Express. They are close by and I usually get the goods within three days.

In that 15 speaker shootout vid, it was nice that they had the Eminence Swamp Thang. It sounded good on that vid. I was wondering how they would sound paired up to the Man 'O Wars?

I wish that is all I had to do was pair speakers up and try them and get a fat paycheck for doing it. Oh, and I would get to keep all of the speakers.


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## Rockin_Lisa

Same here. I would love to be a speaker tester. Where do I sign up?

Any of you guys out there have speaker info, please post it here so that others can use it.

WGS all the way.


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## MartyStrat54

I got some valuable info from my friend at Eminence. This is great info and I'm glad to share it.

*********************************************************

Hi,

Thank you! We greatly appreciate you pushing Eminence! We need the support!

Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75. Our version of the V30 is the Governor, Greenback is Private Jack, Alnico Blue is Red Fang, G12-65 is Tonespotter, and G12H30 is the Wizard.

Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker LLC
anthony.lucas@eminence.com
502-845-5622 ext. 341


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## solarburn

Thanks bud! Good to know.


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## MartyStrat54

I still say that the Man 'O Wars sound better than a G12-75 and it is a 120 watt speaker. Sounds better, handles more power and gets louder.

I may have to try some of them Private Jacks as I would like to hear how they sound.


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## 00jett

I had forgot i was going to post some findings on a day of speaker testing here. Ok the run down real quick of what was tested. 

Cabinets:
1. 2x12(closed back) - Eminence Tonker & Cannabis Rex
2. 2x12(closed back) - WGS Veteran 30 & Reaper 
3. 2x12(closed back) - Weber Ceramic 1230 & 1265
4. 2x12(open back) - Eminence Red, White, & Blues (pair)
4. 4x12(closed back) - Celestion vintage 30s & G12H-30 (anniversary) x-pattern

Amps:
Marshall dsl 50, Morris dual channel Rock Grinder, Fender Blues Deville, Morris XS II

Guitars:
Gibson Les Paul, Fender Telecaster, 3 different Anderson guitars (can't remember which models)

What a great bunch of speakers. The Eminence speakers were definately the most unique (probably cause they were not trying to copy celestion). the Tonker and Cannabis Rex make a very smooth but good sounding pair. These are not 'in your face', 'tear your head off' speakers. They seemed to do really well in a larger 2x12 cab where other speakers in-fact sounded boomy. The pair had a bit of an emphasis in the Low-Mid frequencies that came out when the cab was run through a PA. A simple adjustment of mic placement balanced this out better. These are speakers IMO were great for taming the more aggresive styles of playing and turning amps into smooth lead machines. 

The Eminence Red, White, and Blues pair, still have not been tested with all the amps, but from what my ears tell me is they are huge sounding. Big low end, but still quite firm if dialed right, and a nice round high end as well. They are relaxed in the mids (especially compared to celestions). These things love cleans sounds (I have them in the fender). They do have a fairly nice sound when over-driven but i dont know if it is my favourite.. They just sound so big that if the overdrive is not dialed correctly it can sound a bit flubby. I have to admit though that these are not broken in as much as the rest of the speakers we tried. These characteristics may change with age. 

Bring on the clones!! The Weber and WGS speakers really do sound close to there celestion counter parts. The 1230 & 1265 combo was probably the most smooth sounding pair we tested. There was plenty of bite but that honking upper mid-range was not existant.

WGS..... What can i say.... It was the 1st time I heard these speakers and they blew me away. The veteran 30 and reaper combo is supposed to be close to the Vintage 30, G12H-30 combo that was in the 4x12. Sided by side the WGS speakers were a bit more conservative in the upper midrange. They were still very aggressive but not as much as the celestions. They also are very particular to cabinet size it seems. We had them in a larger 2x12 at 1st and they were very boomy. The 2nd 2x12 cab was smaller and it fixed this. Great speakers for anyone that wants celestion (or better if you like them) without the price. We were so impressed with WGS that more speakers from them will most likely find homes in our cabs. We also conviced a local amp builder to consider these because of the sound vs price ratio. 

The best part about all these cabs were we could have a different sound depending on what we were playing or the mood!

This review is purely my opinion. Specs and samples can be found on manufactures sites.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks 00jett for you time and your review. I know that the WGS is a great product. I've had someone pestering me about getting some.

Love the Eminence too. I think I will try out some of those Private Jack speakers. I have a lot of Eminence. I almost became a dealer, but it wasn't feasible for me. Yeah, the Red, White and Blues speaker is noted for taming screechy amps. I have two in an open back 212 combo.

Another speaker I like is the Delta Pro II. This is a monster speaker that is reated at 400 watts RMS. You can use it as a bass guitar speaker, or a guitar speaker. It has a smoothed out top end as the speaker is good for 4.5KHz. The low end is what kills. Perfect for drop tuning freaks. This speaker will tear your cabinet a new ass. (And I'm not joking.)

More Eminence reviews to follow.


----------



## plankbadger

I've used mainly G12-75's in 1936 and 1960 cabs. I've put a Vintage 30 into both cabs,
swapping out a G12-75 with great results. 
I am keen to try a G12H with a Vintage 30.


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## MartyStrat54

Talked to Joe and let him know that I unloaded some cash on some Eminence speakers. Two pairs I have already tried, but wanted more. These are the Texas Heat and Governors (V30's). I also picked up a pair of Private Jacks (Greenbacks) and Wizards (G12H30's). All 16 ohm and ready for either 212 or 412 testing. (May have to get some 16 ohm Man 'O Wars (G12-75's). I have the 8 ohm versions in my TSL122.

Now there are some Eminence speakers that are built on the Red Fang (Alnico Blue) frame. They are the Black Mountain and the Canis Major. These must be some hellacious speakers, because they are $270 each and right now are only available in 8 ohm.

Another speaker I am interested in is the Black Powder. It is $77.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Black Mountain built on same frame as the Red Fang. Super low resonance frequency. Lots of tight bass and mids here.





Canis Major built on same frame as the Red Fang. Higher resonance for a more crispy midrange.





Black Powder is a low cost alternative to the Black Mountain. 72Hz resonance frequency. A real punchy V30 eater.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah if the Wizards sound good I may pick up a pair for my 212 cab. Looking forward to hearing how all these sound...

I also want to try either a Celestion Gold or one of the Eminence Alnicos in one of my 112's and hook it up to the Monza specifically. I think a speaker like this would be a great match. It will be awhile before I have some extra cash handy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Isn't the stock speaker in a 401 an alnico gold? If so, I have one of those. Yeah, I would love to have a couple of the Black Mountains and Canis Major's. Just to be able to say whether or not they are worth that much money.

I would also love to do an A/B test of a Black Mountain and a Black Powder. I mean if the Black Powder is close it is almost $200 cheaper.


----------



## Adwex

*ATTENTION: Thread moved.*

"Someone" must've had a tube (or a boob) lodged in his brain when he put this thread in the Tone Zone.
Now it's in its proper home.

Carry on.....


----------



## solarburn

Hahahaha! My guess is a boob! Causes my brain to fade hehe...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had ADWEX move the thread from the Tone Zone to Speakers and Cabinets.

My original reason sounded good to me, but I just wasn't reaching the masses.

Hopefully now there will be some daily activity on this thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I brought this over from another thread. Has some physics in it pertaining to low end and the length of sound waves.



MartyStrat54 said:


> It probably doesn't make a lot of difference in how you mount the four speakers when distance from the source is considered. This is based on the physics of sound. Most guitar speakers are designed for 70Hz to 5KHz operation.
> 
> First, let's look at the sonic length of a Low E bass string. It is 26.7935 feet long and expands at an exponential rate from the source. This is why bass is "omnidirectional." It sounds like it is coming from all directions.
> 
> Now the lowest frequencies you can get out of a standard guitar would probably be a drop C tuning. This is 21.2326 feet and is quite a low frequency for a guitar.
> 
> Compare it to 16.0761 feet for a 70Hz signal. What we notice is that as the frequency goes up, the physical wavelength becomes smaller.
> 
> Lets look at a 1KHz signal. It is only 1.1253 feet in length. We are already seeing the "flashlight beam" effect. Fifty feet back, this signal will have expanded some, but it will still be a "narrow beam."
> 
> Now for 5Khz. It is 0.2251 feet, or 2.7008 inches in length. This is why the sound gets really muddy if you walk away from the source of the sound.
> 
> Having a half stack does help, because the physical mounting of the speakers adds to the width and height of the guitar signal. However, as you move up the neck of the guitar, especially on the G, B and High E strings, the physical size of the signal becomes small and the audience will have a smaller "sweet spot."
> 
> Another example would be pinch harmonics. The audience in front of your cab will hear them perfectly, while those in the audience sitting to the left or right of your cab will hear anything from a "rounded harmonic" to hardly anything at all. Pinch harmonics on a guitar are around 4KHz. This is a wave that is 3.376 inches in length. By now you should be able to see that even 25 feet back, the signal is still going to be quite narrow.
> 
> Now, if you run your guitar through the PA, this will alleviate most of the beaming problem, because horns are designed to disperse high frequencies in a certain way such as 90 by 60, 60 by 60, or some other set pattern.
> 
> If you do not mic your guitar into the PA, then you will have to accept the drawback of playing through one half stack. Two half stacks slightly "V" shaped will make a huge improvement in your live sound if you are not using the PA for guitar.
> 
> Just remember that the lower the frequency, the wider the physical length of the wave and the higher the frequency, the narrower the physical length of the wave. "Beaming" starts occurring before 1KHz.
> 
> If you had a speaker rated at 150 watts and were only using one speaker with a 100 watt head, the effects of beaming would be highly noticeable to your audience. As I said, a 412 cab is better and two 412 cabs slightly splayed in a wide V will be the best.
> 
> While different guitar speakers have their own unique sound, they all create the same physical signal lengths.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Please post any info pertaining to speaker shoot out's here. Either the direct link, YouTube or other.

Also, if you posted speaker info on another thread that you feel would be useful on this thread, please move a copy over here.

Thanks, Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some shoot out's. This has got the Texas heat sounding thin and I guarantee you it's not a thin sounding speaker. I don't know if the recording mic moved or what. Anyway, here's a four-way shoot out.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3cyE2Llqxw]YouTube - Guitar Speaker Comparison (Vintage30 vs. Veteran30 vs. Texas Heat vs. Wizard)[/ame]

Celestion V30 and Eminence Texas Heat

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWvIJsJe_Ns&NR=1]YouTube - Speaker Comparison : Texas Heat and Vintage 30[/ame]

Texas Heat and K-100. Separately and combined.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9OYy24tm-o&NR=1]YouTube - Eminence Texas Heat VS Celestion G12K 100[/ame]

The "standard" as seen before. 4-way Celestion with Rivera amp.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9acguJjsgDg&NR=1]YouTube - Celestion V30 vs G12H30 vsG12T75 vs K100 w Rivera Venus 6[/ame]

Jazz player cuts loose on some Wizards and Strat.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBCr3fk-qM&feature=fvw]YouTube - Eminence wizard speakers in my 2 x 12 cabinet[/ame]

More vids to come. Stay tuned all ye speaker lovers.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I see you got the Mod to move the thread. Good deal. I'm sorrythat I have sort of let you down. I hope you can forgive me. Work + Personal life can = no spare time. I will try harder.

British Invasion | Warehouse Guitar Speaker

Found this one for you.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1MmrC5BHMg&feature=related]YouTube - Eminence Lynch Super V12 Guitar Speaker[/ame]


----------



## thecolorryan

What's the general concensus on Celestion Super 65's? I'm getting ready to build a custom 4x12 cab, and I'm trying to decide what kind of speakers to get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thecolorryan said:


> What's the general concensus on Celestion Super 65's? I'm getting ready to build a custom 4x12 cab, and I'm trying to decide what kind of speakers to get.



There are a few members talking them up on the forum. The thing about speakers are their price. I just spent $800 on four pairs just to do my own testing.

I wouldn't just blindly buy any speaker without hearing at least several sound clips. Experience shows that a speakers will sound better and be more ballsy than how it sounds on any YouTube video.

What's your playing style? Do you use any drop tunings? Are you a high gain freak? A speaker can sound great in the crunch mode, but suck when driven hard.

I like Eminence speakers. Most of their clones of Celestions have higher power ratings. Eminence make a clone of the 65 called the Tonespotter.

Here is a review by JCMJMP on the 65:

G12-65 (UK): 65w. Another one of my favorites. This speaker reminds me somewhat of the G12M-25s I have. The top end is smooth and its great at taming the high end of some amps. Lows are warm and tighter that a G12M but looser than a G12T-75 and the mids seem to be a cross between the G12M and G12H 70th. The sound of this speaker really wraps around you and interacts so well with the guitar, especially strats. The mids are complex and I would tend to say that it emphasizes the low mids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Joe, the FedEx truck pulled up with a bunch of boxes. I am going to be in speaker heaven. 

What sucks is the Black Powder is only available in 8 ohms, so if you wanted to run four in a half stack, it would be an 8 ohm cab. The Tonker is available in only 8 ohms as well.

I like 16 ohm speakers. Not only can you do more with them as far as configurations go, but the 16 ohm voice coil does affect the overall response of the speaker. A little more bottom end.

Stay tuned, as I picked up a 1960 cab today with 75's in it. Hey, now my Twister will kick ass.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, the FedEx truck pulled up with a bunch of boxes. I am going to be in speaker heaven.
> 
> What sucks is the Black Powder is only available in 8 ohms, so if you wanted to run four in a half stack, it would be an 8 ohm cab. The Tonker is available in only 8 ohms as well.
> 
> I like 16 ohm speakers. Not only can you do more with them as far as configurations go, but the 16 ohm voice coil does affect the overall response of the speaker. A little more bottom end.
> 
> Stay tuned, as I picked up a 1960 cab today with 75's in it. Hey, now my Twister will kick ass.



Righteous!

The Monza only has an 8/4ohm tap so no worries. I'd like to see some of our girls from our thread do the "Twister" hehe. Damn amp!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Righteous!
> 
> The Monza only has an 8/4ohm tap so no worries. I'd like to see some of our girls from our thread do the "Twister" hehe. Damn amp!



What does it involve Joe? A little shimmy, shimmy shake? Ha-ha!

Well Marty, I hope you get lucky the second time around with the Twister.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well so far I have more watchers that I did the first few days of the original listing. I'm up to 6 watchers already. However, I had 10 watchers in the original listing and none of them bid. God I really need to sell that so I can get a 2204.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> What does it involve Joe? A little shimmy, shimmy shake? Ha-ha!
> 
> Well Marty, I hope you get lucky the second time around with the Twister.



You always fly by when i'm not here! Dagnabit! Yeah Marty needs an 800 soon. Send him some seller mojo so he can get one.


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## thrawn86

It's a beautiful amp, Marty. Shame the thing speaks a different language than NOS.


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## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> It's a beautiful amp, Marty. Shame the thing speaks a different language than NOS.



That's the problem, it speaks instead of sings. I need an amp that sings. The Twister is just plain flat sounding, no matter what sort of cab or speakers you use. It has all Shuguang tubes and that right there is a red herring.

Almighty amp god, please let me get the Twister sold.


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## thrawn86

Send it to Jon.............he can 'fix' it.


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## MartyStrat54

Already discussed that option with Jon two weeks ago and it won't fly. The chassis is very small and the layout is poor, so it would mean basically rebuilding the entire amp. I want to sell this, get a 2204 and have that modded into the dual channel. If the Twister was capable of being made into a hard rocker for a reasonable amount, I would consider it, but why put money into a bad sounding amp. I would be taking a roll of the dice.


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## solarburn

I think we should pass a hat around here until we have enough money to cover your cost of the amp and then you can take it out back somewheres and unload your AK-47 on it. Of course taking a vid of it so we can watch...

Jus a thought...


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## MartyStrat54

I've already recommended that and I am game for it. Could you see Jades face as one of his beloved F3's was shot to hell with a 40 round clip out of an AK-47 and it was all being played over and over on YouTube? 

Hell I thought about doing it and not getting reimbursed for it. I hate it that bad.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've already recommended that and I am game for it. Could you see Jades face as one of his beloved F3's was shot to hell with a 40 round clip out of an AK-47 and it was all being played over and over on YouTube?
> 
> Hell I thought about doing it and not getting reimbursed for it. I hate it that bad.



It would be redonkulously awesome! I would actually pitch in for that. 

Watch me mod my Twister amp...AK-47 sprays it...Priceless!


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## MartyStrat54

The original thread has been upgraded with info from Anthony Lucas, Eminence Speakers.

Notice: Due to questions brought up by other senior members, I am making a statement that the below information is not exact. Of course, nothing is exact when measuring sound from a loudspeaker. A loudspeaker in essence is very "inefficient" with efficieny ratings of one to 10 percent. Also, the SPL can be measured using pink noise or say 400Hz. These will give different SPL ratings. A speaker like a guitar speaker, gets less efficient at the lower and higher frequencies. I have contacted Anthony Lucas at Eminence to get an explanation about multiple speaker SPL ratings. Right now, I went on what I was taught, but that was back in the mid 1980's. I hope to get all of this rectifed with the correct information.

Okay, I got my reply back from Anthony Lucas. I had sent him a copy of the SPL figures and from a "mathematical" standpoint they are correct, so I will put those figures back up. They are meant to be a guide only, not an exact figure. I think we all know that speakers are frequency sensitive and their output depends on the notes or chords you are playing. I have included Anthony's letters at the end of this post. I'm sure it will generate some discussion, but we need a lively thread. Also, I told Anthony that there is no info on the Internet about this and he said that he would conduct a 1, 2, 4 and 8 speaker experiment in the anechoic chamber at Eminence and will probably release it on YouTube. 

Lots of folks buying 20 watt guitar amps and then discovering that these amp are friggin LOUD! Some people are wanting to know about low efficiency guitar speakers.

This is what I said. In an attempt to lower efficiency. The cone is usually made thicker and/or a heavier voice coil is used. This makes the speaker lack explosiveness and overtones.

Here are some examples of speaker SPL versus amp wattage.

(Test speakers, two Eminence Texas Heat speakers rated at 100dB @ 1 watt.)

Fist off, two speakers combined, you add +3dB SPL.

5 watt amp:

1W=103dB
2W=106dB
4W=109dB
5W=109.3dB. 

20 watt amp:

1W=103dB
2W=106dB
4W=109dB
8W=112dB
16W=115dB
20W=115.4dB.

50 watt amp:

1W=103dB
2W=106dB
4W=109dB
8W=112dB
16W=115dB
32W=118dB
50W=119.3dB.

100 watt amp:

1W=103dB
2W=106dB
4W=109dB
8W=112dB
16W=115dB
32W=118dB
64W=121dB
100W=122.3dB.

If you look at the 5 watt amp, you will see that doubling the 5 watts gives us ten watts (and a +3dB SPL increase) and doubling it again to twenty give us a total of 6dB SPL increase. Look at the max SPL of the 20 watt amp. It is 115.4db SPL. This is very close. The math doesn't lie.

Also, I get this feeling that a lot of guys do not have a clue when it comes to judging power. If so, I think more of them would buy a 5 watt amp, but what I think happens is that they want something that can be both a bedroom amp and a small gigging amp. This is not going to happen. The 20 watt is loud. 8 watts equal 112dB (with the 212 cab). This is louder than a jet doing a very close flyover. This again is in your bedroom.

Going to the SPL Calculator site, I checked my SPL figures and they were right on. This site has an active chart that you load in your info and it tells you what your SPL will be. Here it is:

Peak SPL Calculator

Remember to use the SPL of just one speaker. The chart will add additional SPL by the number of speakers you select. (Added) Again, this gets you in the ballpark. It is not intended to be an exact figure.

So if you want a bedroom amp, you need to be looking at the 5 watt models. 
I know, I know. The 5 watt amps have a limited clean, but if you take the step up to a 20 watt, just remember this. I can take that 20 watt amp and hook it up to a high efficiency 412 cab and it can hit a max SPL of 121dB. I am now as loud as a 100 watt amp with 212's.

20 watt amp with 412 cab rated at 109dB:

1W=109dB
2W=112dB
4W=115dB
8W=118dB
16W=121dB
20W=121.4dB.

So don't think you can't do a large show with a 20 watt amp. You can if you are using speaker rated at 102 to 105dB SPL.

Here's how loud a 20 watt amp is with a full stack. Speakers used, Eminence Wizards (G12H30 clones) rated at +103dB.

One speaker=103dB
Two speakers=106dB
Four speakers=109dB

Two cabs=112dB

Okay, with one watt, we are at a point that the cab is already very loud.

20 watt amp with full stack @ 112dB SPL @ 1W:

1W=112dB
2W=115dB
4W=118dB
8W=121dB
16W=124dB
20W=Just under 125dB.

Do you see what you can do with just twenty watts? 124dB? That's stupid loud.

How loud can you go with these stacks and a 100 watt head?

1W=112dB
2W=115dB
4W=118dB
8W=121dB
16W=124dB
32W=127dB
64W=130dB
100W=About 131.4dB

I hope some of you find this to be a good read. I just wanted to write this up as an example of what wattage can do. Hopefully, this can be a guide to help you match up an amp to some speakers. If you have any individual questions, either post them, or you can PM me.

Anthony Lucas' responses.

Hey Marty,

LOL....you guys are funny with all the in-depth forum arguments! I can certainly appreciate the conversation and desire for sharing and knowledge, but I could really use you guys to help me finish my "honey-do" list. Don't you have one? Of course, I'm the only one in my family that doesn't have a Facebook to stare at for hours on end, so maybe I'm weird.

Anyway, I saw your other email, too. I found the discussion and read through it. You are correct in assuming a 3dB increase from coupling when you double the amount of speakers used. I also agree with the guys saying that the math doesn't work out to a 3dB increase in SPL once you consider the speakers are sharing the power. For example, you start with a 1 watt amp on one 103dB speaker....that's 103dB at 1 meter. Then you add another 103dB speaker, but you're splitting the 1 watt of power....the math tells me that the 1/2 watt decrease in power to each speaker should negate the gain from coupling. BUT....what you actually have to consider is the system SPL and power. When you had one speaker it was 1 watt to a 103dB system. With two speakers, it's still 1 watt from the amp (we are assuming that it didn't change with impedance), but now it's to a 106dB system. 

I mostly play in churches or small outdoor events, so I love the concept of all these smaller tube amps. I've been playing a Blackheart BH15H (15 or 7 watts) through a 2x12 for a while now. I was having a lot of trouble getting to the "sweet" spot on the amp without being too loud and getting thrown out of church. Even the 7 watt setting was too loud. Plus, I was getting tired of packing a heavy 2x12 around when all I ever did was turn down my amp to lower settings and then mic the cab. I recently got a 1x12 cabinet and started practicing with it at home in my basement. Just the other night, I had a little time (everybody else was checking their Facebook, LOL) and decided to play some. I wasn't really thinking about the change from the 2x12 to 1x2 at that moment (I can't think and play at the same time) and I kept wondering why my amp was sounding more puny than I remembered and wasn't rattling the walls anymore. My first thought was, "Ahhh, Man, I need new tubes!", but then it occurred to me that I was playing through less speakers. (Yeah, I'm a little slow!) It was a very noticeable difference. I've also played some of these 20 watt and less amps through 4x12's, just goofing around, and it makes them sound a lot bigger and louder.

This is an interesting topic and something I think pertinent for players to know about. I might just set up a test to measure this and post my findings or make a youtube video or something to share. (Disclaimer: Please don't ask me tomorrow if I'm done with that yet ;-)) Another important factor I don't think you guys touched on is SPL lost from distance. When you double the distance between your ears and the speakers you lose 6dB, so the size of the room and where the audience is sitting is also relevant when you're deciding what you might need with maximum SPL of a given amp and speaker combination.

I hope this helps and doesn't get you kicked off the forum! If they have a problem with my claims, I don't know you and we've never had any discussion about this!



Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Technical Support
Eminence Speaker LLC
anthony.lucas@eminence.com
502-845-5622 ext. 341

My second response:

So let me make this clear to myself. If you go from one speaker to two speakers to four speaker and to eight speakers ( a doubling), you get a 3db increase "as a system and the wattage remains the same."

This is what I have always believed, but I do understand that in a full stack with eight speakers and one watt, each speaker is seeing 1/8th watt.
However if I understand you, "as a system, the 3dB doubling rule is true. Example: 103dB Wizard. 2=106dB, 4=109db and 8=112dB, all on one watt as an "SPL system." Exactly. 
Actually, this is a lot more complicated then what I first thought. I tried to make it simple and the online SPL calculator was right on to my figures, but one tech said the thing about power. He stated that with eight, 103db speakers at one watt, the speakers are the same volume. I cant buy that. Me neither...they are splitting the power, BUT you can't look at what's going on with one speaker, you have to think of it as a system. That theory negates acoustical coupling. Exactly! Also a fact for thought. A 100 watt amp pushing a 100 watts into a full stack is only putting 12.5 watts on each speaker. I did some computations and it still comes out pretty close for a MAX SPL rating. What's amazing is if you drop down to a 212 cab with say Wizards and you are using the same 100 watt amp. You put the full power into the speakers and they are seeing 50 watts each. They are certainly moving more air and the excursion is greater. Yep, it may sound better or worse because of the bigger difference in power distribution that each speaker is receiving. They may sound better with less power because they aren't working as hard and are more controlled. On the other hand, they may sound better with more power because of the break up characteristics, harmonic detail, compression, etc. associated with driving them harder. Depends on the speaker, I guess, and what characteristics you're trying to bring out of it. My point? Just like you in your basement playing a 1 X 12 cab, the 2 X 12 are going to have a different tone to them, because they are being played a lot louder than the full stack. All of these variables to look at and trying to figure out true SPL levels. Apparently not much has been done in this area. I couldn't find squat on the Internet. Yep, it may sound better or worse because of the bigger difference in power distribution that each speaker is receiving. They may sound better with less power because they aren't working as hard and are more controlled. On the other hand, they may sound better with more power because of the break up characteristics, harmonic detail, compression, etc. associated with driving them harder. Depends on the speaker, I guess, and what characteristics you're trying to bring out of it.Yep, it may sound better or worse because of the bigger difference in power distribution that each speaker is receiving. They may sound better with less power because they aren't working as hard and are more controlled. On the other hand, they may sound better with more power because of the break up characteristics, harmonic detail, compression, etc. associated with driving them harder. Depends on the speaker, I guess, and what characteristics you're trying to bring out of it. So it would be beneficial for me to do a test!

Marty Overbey

Some additional thoughts.

I am just putting down what I received. The key point is to look at multiple speakers as a system. Even though the wattage is split equally to each driver, the power the speaker sees (say 12.5 watts) is sufficient to raise the SPL level and then when you add SPL for speaker doubling, the cab is very close to MAX SPL figures.

We haven't discussed this topic much (if at all). I am more than glad to hear any additional comments. Again, these figures are in the ball park. They do not represent an exact SPL level. As one member said, you would have to do a specialized test to confirm SPL levels. I can even say that SPL levels can vary between two identical speakers. Maybe not much, but some.

Let the comments rip. That's why they call it a forum.


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## joshuaaewallen

*Eminence Speakers Helps Players Get Better Tone at Lower Volume*






By Marc Johnson for The Tone King

For those of you who aren’t in the know about Big Tony, he is a guitar player and the Senior Lab Tech at Eminence Speakers. In addition to being with Eminence for over 10 years, he also writes columns for players who want to know how speakers work. While other guys are just trying to sell you something for the sake of profit, Tony and the folks at Eminence prefer to educate people on how gear actually works, and you know The Tone King is all about the education. Well, our buddy Big Tony and Eminence Speakers have come up with something that just may revolutionize speaker technology. Just like you, at TTK, we are always cranking our amps up. And, like you, when we go on the road, the first thing we hear from the sound guy is “Turn that damn thing down!” We know that our best sound lies at ten, but we are condemned to the hell of keeping our amps at low volumes.
Eminence’s Flux Density Modulation (FDM) Technology is an all-analog mechanism that is actually built into the speaker itself. Without using attenuation circuits, FDM Technology keeps the signal path as unaffected as possible. The dial on the back of the speaker mechanically manipulates the flux path and relative densities within a loudspeaker motor structure. The FDM knob can attenuate the signal up to 9db. To anyone who has used attenuators before, generally that’s about as far as you can go before you really start noticing a significant (i.e. bad) change in your tone. According to their website, www.Eminence.com/fdm, Eminence’s FDM technology will be available in two of their speaker lines, the Patriot and the Red Coat series, and two different models, the Maverick and the ReignMaker.
In addition to attenuating your signal, the FDM will also allow you to accentuate the tones that you already get from your amp. When you add more attenuation, your tone will get warmer as your volume goes down, and when you remove attenuation, your tone will get brighter as you get louder. This feature will give players the ability to actually manipulate the characteristics of the speaker, providing them with more options and dynamics.
Maybe, once we get our hands on them, we’ll do another tutorial on speaker installation and show you how to pop them in your favorite cabinet. Until then, TheToneKing.com is looking forward to taking these out for a test drive as well as seeing what else Big Tony and Eminence has in store for us down the road.
​


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah we have discussed these and maybe the Red Coat version would work well in the 122. Hey 9dB is perceived as almost a twice as loud change in volume (10dB is twice). I haven't seen any pricing yet.


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah we have discussed these and maybe the Red Coat version would work well in the 122. Hey 9dB is perceived as almost a twice as loud change in volume (10dB is twice). I haven't seen any pricing yet.



Ahh... Far out. I hadn't really followed this topic until last night. It'll be nice when they release these so we can get some feedback on them, but until then the concept certainly looks intriguing.


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## MartyStrat54

I'll contact my buddy at Eminence and find out for ya.


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll contact my buddy at Eminence and find out for ya.



Suhweet!


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## joshuaaewallen

I have never played through eminence speakers. How would the Red Coats sound compared to say... A pair of vintage 30's?


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## MartyStrat54

Well Josh, one page back I had contacted Anthony at Eminence about this very question, because I wanted to know for sure myself. Here is the run down.

Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75. 
Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
Greenback is Private Jack. 
Alnico Blue is Red Fang. 
G12-65 is Tonespotter. 
G12H30 is the Wizard.

Now I will say this. I have MAN O WAR's in the TSL122. I feel from using both that the MOW's are more crunchy sounding and are even more aggressive. This probably has to do with a larger magnet and higher power handling. G12T-75's tend to loose definition at higher volume and some people like this "out of control train wreck" sound. I like my speakers to stay tight and crunchy regardless of volume.

Just so you know, I have purchased all the above speakers plus 4 pairs of Patriot speakers and I am involved in testing them as I type this up. I just bought a 1960 cab and I think I am going to load it with Black Powder and Texas Heat. Just their names implies fire and explosions.


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Josh, one page back I had contacted Anthony at Eminence about this very question, because I wanted to know for sure myself. Here is the run down.
> 
> Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75.
> Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
> Greenback is Private Jack.
> Alnico Blue is Red Fang.
> G12-65 is Tonespotter.
> G12H30 is the Wizard.
> 
> Now I will say this. I have MAN O WAR's in the TSL122. I feel from using both that the MOW's are more crunchy sounding and are even more aggressive. This probably has to do with a larger magnet and higher power handling. G12T-75's tend to loose definition at higher volume and some people like this "out of control train wreck" sound. I like my speakers to stay tight and crunchy regardless of volume.
> 
> Just so you know, I have purchased all the above speakers plus 4 pairs of Patriot speakers and I am involved in testing them as I type this up. I just bought a 1960 cab and I think I am going to load it with Black Powder and Texas Heat. Just their names implies fire and explosions.



How would you describe Greenbacks tonally?

My 2x12 which has got Vintage 30's, and I really like those, but outside of those, and my Stock speakers from the TSL, I really haven't played around much w/ speakers. I'm gonna stay tuned for the results of your testing.


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## MartyStrat54

The term "Greenback" can mean one of several speakers. Generally, the original was very low wattage and would breakup easily for that classic distorted sound of the 60's.

New model's are still low wattage and the main characteristic about a Greenback is the breakup. 

Since every part is made light, the speaker is bright sounding and pretty efficient. I think they sound best with humbuckers.


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## rykus

awsome thread you guys, i've been contemplating getting a set of alninco golds for an empty cab i've been lugging around for a couple years, but every time i get close i buy something "i'll never see again". so far my unintentionall testing is mostly just cabs and amps i got cheap/free so kinda random. i have a 70 cab (4x12)with all orig. oct 70 green backs. sounds amazing and what i will use as my green back standard.... i have a re tolexed 71 cab with 2 orig, 2 english re issue green backs that sounds a bit darker than the 70 still amazing and very close. the speakers try and jump out with the super bass at 7 or so on the volumes so im searching for a safer alternative...and last in the 4x12 i have a 68/69 cab with one orig. green back and 3 black back 70's speakers. this cab screams and begs to be punished with metal overdrive, wayyy more treble and metally sound but has a scratchy voice coil, i thought it was a loose dust cap but it didnt gett better when fixed so is kinda sitting idle right now. i use a single 15 home made cab with the super bass head i think its an emeinance 300w 15. i thought it was a 4 x10 when i bought it like ten years ago for beer or something, sounds good, tighter and clearer than low watt 12s and i don't have too worry about the blow factor of the old speakers, i also have tried my 70's fender pro speakers through a couple amps and they are serious clean bright and loud, i also had a 60's jensen 12 from a sivertone that sounded like shit till i pulled it a realised the baffle board was 1/8 in fibre board and was 2 piece! sounded good in proper open back cab. nice early breakup with the 6v6 output section... i think thats what i like about the 50w plexi bass head and 70 cab is it remineds me of that little silvertone.... but louder.


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## MartyStrat54

Great info rykus. I would warn against using any low watt Greenback with a powerful head. Their suspensions were very light and you could actually push the voice coil out of the gap.

Other than that, you have some really nice old Celestions.


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## thrawn86

Question:

I'm considering pulling the old Goldback out of the cabinet and making a nice enclosure for it. How much volume should I make the box for, in ft/cu3? And with the Goldback, should it still be a semi-open design?


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## MartyStrat54

Let me see if I can find the Thiele and Small parameters on the Goldback. I can then run it through my software program and it will determine if the speakers wants to be in a sealed or ported cab.

See if you can find them and PM me a link. I'll look too.


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## MartyStrat54

Looked all over and almost got a virus on one site. Celestion just doesn't publish much info on their guitar speakers. Here is a link off of one of their "To Do" pages.

Celestion | Guitar Loudspeakers

This is an old page obviously, as it does not take into consideration anything but a standard E tuning. Even at 82Hz, I can still tell what sort of box the speaker wants to be in.


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## rykus

thanks marty, i seem to have a collection of really nice player grade stuff that collecters wouldn't touch... alot of it needed work but i always liked to piece things together and scoure for deals so ya ended up sounding great. i really want to know about some of the alnico speakers and am now torn between the alnico gold and tone tubby hemp cone alnico. anyone tried em out yet. i want something different sounding than the greenbacks that can handle a bit more, and maybe with a lower effecency so i can try diming the super bass anyways thanks for the help.probly be a while till i could splurge on new speakers anyways so mabye i'll try one in my little practice amp first. anyways cheers 
doug


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## MartyStrat54

Well if you are looking into trying to dime big Marshall amps, I would carefully select the type of speaker used. Most of the Alnico's are for some reason, low wattage speakers. The older stuff from Altec and JBL were stouter. The Altec 417 used a huge Alnico magnet and was rated at 100WRMS. The early JBL D and K120 speakers used Alnico and were rated at 200WRMS. To me, the Altec was a better sounding speaker and the choice of Carlos Santana. Great sustain and just the right amount of cone distortion.

You might want to look at Eminence's Private Jack. These are their clone of the Greenback, but they are rated at 50 watts, so four would give you 200. That's a good safety cushion if you are wanting to crank the ole Super Bass. Remember, almost every sales ad I have seen on Marshall 100 watt heads have them listed as 120 watts at 5 percent THD. 5 percent THD ain't shit for that SL head. The higher the THD number goes, the hotter the voice coils are going to get. CYA-Cover Yer Ass.


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## Rockin_Lisa

Wow. Great write up Marty and kudo's to JOSH for his info on the new Eminence speakers. Variable SPL. That is new. Yep, lots of new stuff posted up. Sorry I'm a slacker. Actually it is my work and my band. That leaves me just enough time to take a shower every night.


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## rykus

thanks again for the helpfull info, i definatly feel the 100w is a loose figure cause that amp in particular pushes pretty hard, more than the super lead i have..... 50w speakers should be safish though, and it kinda mushes up past 7-8 anyways.... and the drummer would start with the mikes again.... maybe its hot on the bias, now i'm feeling like an expert after my first bias job. anyways thanks again have a good night every one


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## MartyStrat54

One thing I know about old Marshalls, is that they are capable of getting very loud on a clean setting. If you have muddiness or other tone problems, you have to look at the age of the amp and think about what should be replaced. 

The number one most often overlooked part is the power filters. These puppies will affect your tone and if the amp is starting to fall apart at higher volumes, that's one of the signs of a bad filter.

Again, something to consider.


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## core

What do you guys think of the Celestion G12-65's? I'm thinking about mixing them with my V-30's. The Warehouse guys seem to think that's about the best mix you can get for low's, mid's and high's.


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## MartyStrat54

I've heard some good responses about the 65's. Don't know about the V30 mix. I guess you would have to hear it in person to make the decision on whether it's a good mix.

Right now, I'm liking the Private Jacks (Greenbacks) and Black Powder in a 412 cab.


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## Stymie13

Marty, I'm really intrigued with the Delta Pros. Are you running them in anything? How's the BP and PJ match treating you?


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## MartyStrat54

I believe we have talked a little about the Delta Pro's. They are a pretty unique speaker. They handle bass, electric guitar and of course PA. They are usable to about 4.5KHz so this means they will be a little smoother on the top end. They are a killer, self-standing bass speaker. Four of these in a bass cab would be hell.

Almost all guitar speakers have a massive dip and peak around 2KHz. The Delta Pro is like a high powered HiFi speaker. It is pretty much flat across its frequency response. You can get your necessary boost with the tone controls, but when I was testing a pair, I used a graphic equalizer. The tone is like I said, very smooth. You can add bite to it with the equalizer if you want. It is not a harsh speaker. I think it's perfect for heavy metal, nu metal or any style where you are running a boost on the clean channel.

Power handling? Massive. Rated at 400WRMS and 800 watts music program power. Cast aluminum frame and 2.5 inch voice coil. Huge 80 ounce magnet with pro style terminal.

The only downside is their weight. At over 16 pounds each, they weigh almost as much as a 20 pound JBL E120.


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## MartyStrat54

I bought $1200 worth of Eminence speakers. Some I hope to use for other customers, but in the mean time I am testing them all. The Private Jack is the Eminence clone of the Greenback, but it has better power handling. The Black Powder is probably a good match with many speakers. In this case, I have warm, sweet highs, somewhat bright, mixed with a thick mid and upper midrange. Palm mutes are razor sharp and aggressive. I can't wait to get my modded 2204 to try this through.

The other match that I have used before is a pair of Texas Heat with a pair of Governor's. (The Governor's are clone V30's.) I'm also working in a pair of Tonespotters (G12-65's) in with the Governor's. They sound like a good match.

Still have to work out a mixed pair with the Wizard (G12H30) and the Red, White and Blues. I have Swamp Thang's and Man 'O Wars as well. 

The Texas Heat's sound pretty good with the Red, White and Blues.

My test cab is a modded 1960A cab that I bought recently. I have installed two Aperiodic Vents and a slab of fiberglass on the back panel. Once I have decided which speakers stay in it, I will solder all terminals.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I bought $1200 worth of Eminence speakers. Some I hope to use for other customers, but in the mean time I am testing them all. The Private Jack is the Eminence clone of the Greenback, but it has better power handling. The Black Powder is probably a good match with many speakers. In this case, I have warm, sweet highs, somewhat bright, mixed with a thick mid and upper midrange. Palm mutes are razor sharp and aggressive. I can't wait to get my modded 2204 to try this through.
> 
> The other match that I have used before is a pair of Texas Heat with a pair of Governor's. (The Governor's are clone V30's.) I'm also working in a pair of Tonespotters (G12-65's) in with the Governor's. They sound like a good match.
> 
> Still have to work out a mixed pair with the Wizard (G12H30) and the Red, White and Blues. I have Swamp Thang's and Man 'O Wars as well.
> 
> The Texas Heat's sound pretty good with the Red, White and Blues.
> 
> My test cab is a modded 1960A cab that I bought recently. I have installed two Aperiodic Vents and a slab of fiberglass on the back panel. Once I have decided which speakers stay in it, I will solder all terminals.



So glad you are testing these out and sharing what you find. Following it closely for my amps too.


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## MartyStrat54

I'm repeating myself, but this is the description of an Aperiodic Vent.

The Scan Speak Vent is an air flow resistant, "aperiodic" damping device very useful in sealed box applications. It works by reducing the maximum impedance at the box resonance by at least 50%. This results in clearer, better defined bass, with more amplifier power and control into the lower frequencies. It also allows the use of a driver in a smaller than optimum sealed enclosure. The vent should be mounted to the cabinet back wall in a 4-5/16" (110mm) diameter hole. About 60% of the cabinet volume should be filled with damping material, being careful to leave an open path from woofer rear to the vent device.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> So glad you are testing these out and sharing what you find. Following it closely for my amps too.



Yeah, before I get to windy describing the speakers, I want to get that 2204 over here, because of it's aggressive tone. The speakers will sound a lot different with it. I may make some changes, as I bought the 1960 cab knowing I was going though with the modded 2204. Those two pieces will be the heart of my new rig. I want the best pair to go with the 2204, but somehow I know the Black Powders will be on the bottom. (They load on the floor/stage and will really be deep sounding.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh something else I forgot to mention that is a little bit of a bummer. The Black Powder is only available as an 8 ohm speaker. This means I will have to match it to another set of 8 ohm speakers. This sucks, because most of my test speakers are 16 ohm. I did however realize this when I ordered the Black Powders and I did get some of the other pairs in 8 ohms.

The free air resonance on the Black Powders are 72Hz, almost as good as the Alnico Black Mountain at 68Hz, but for about $200 less. They both share a pretty close frequency graph.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh something else I forgot to mention that is a little bit of a bummer. The Black Powder is only available as an 8 ohm speaker. This means I will have to match it to another set of 8 ohm speakers. This sucks, because most of my test speakers are 16 ohm. I did however realize this when I ordered the Black Powders and I did get some of the other pairs in 8 ohms.
> 
> The free air resonance on the Black Powders are 72Hz, almost as good as the Alnico Black Mountain at 68Hz, but for about $200 less. They both share a pretty close frequency graph.



Well I'm hot on this test and results. The BP's sure got my attention. So do those "Aperiodic Vents" pan out and work like your description or have you even tested the cab/speakers at all?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I'm hot on this test and results. The BP's sure got my attention. So do those "Aperiodic Vents" pan out and work like your description or have you even tested the cab/speakers at all?



Well Joe, for you I will probably call you and tell you what the deal is as I know you are very interested.

Yes, I have use the Aperiodic Vents on small bass cabs before. I decided to try them out on guitar speakers, but the effect will be different, because the guitar speakers won't be moving as much air in the cab. This is why I only went with two, instead of three vents. It will still enhance the bottom end of the cab, which BTW is just under 5 cubic feet. Bigger than I thought. Ideally, most 12's in a guitar cab would like at the minimum 1.25 cubic feet, so it is close. The vents should "fool" the speakers and make them think they are in a bigger box.

I've got two left and the company that makes them folded in the recession. I don't know if anyone else offers them. I'm sure there was a patent on them.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, for you I will probably call you and tell you what the deal is as I know you are very interested.
> 
> Yes, I have use the Aperiodic Vents on small bass cabs before. I decided to try them out on guitar speakers, but the effect will be different, because the guitar speakers won't be moving as much air in the cab. This is why I only went with two, instead of three vents. It will still enhance the bottom end of the cab, which BTW is just under 5 cubic feet. Bigger than I thought. Ideally, most 12's in a guitar cab would like at the minimum 1.25 cubic feet, so it is close. The vents should "fool" the speakers and make them think they are in a bigger box.
> 
> I've got two left and the company that makes them folded in the recession. I don't know if anyone else offers them. I'm sure there was a patent on them.



Cool. Can't wait till ya get the 2204 back then. Speakers have a big impact on overall sound and feel and most of us can't afford to experiment much. This is one area I really look and listen at what others are achieving considering the variables...cab, speaker, guitar/PU's, and amp not to mention mic positioning if its a recording. Its a key play on getting the best out of our gear IMO.

Keep up the good work Bruther!


----------



## brandoz28

any recommendations for a speaker to tame the high end on my AVT50 combo?


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## MartyStrat54

Yes. An Eminence Red, White and Blues. Give it a shot.

http://eminence.com/guitar_speaker_detail.asp?model=REDWHITEANDBLUES&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=4


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## brandoz28

awesome.....i've been stuck between that and i've heard a texas heat sounds good in there as well


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## MartyStrat54

Well the Texas Heat does sound good, but it you look at the frequency graph, you'll see that the Heat has a big peak in the high end which is what you don't want.


----------



## oasis 8

Hi, I have an New dsl 401 and want a new speaker. 
I play oasis, Them crooked vultures, Jet, stones, Neil Young...
Which speaker is Best for my Amp?
Vintage30, Eminence wizard or G12/t75?


----------



## MartyStrat54

oasis 8 said:


> Hi, I have an New dsl 401 and want a new speaker.
> I play oasis, Them crooked vultures, Jet, stones, Neil Young...
> Which speaker is Best for my Amp?
> Vintage30, Eminence wizard or G12/t75?



I answered your original thread. Welcome to this one. Yeah, out of those speakers, I would go with the Wizard for two reasons. It's the better all around speaker and two, it is loud as can be. It will make your 401 louder than most 212 cabs.

As I said before, the Wizard is the clone of a G12H30.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, here are some pictures and comments from my latest renovations of the 1960A cab. Some of you are aware of what I have been up to. Recently I bought around $1200 in Eminence speakers and I have been trying out different pairs in a 412 cab.

The 1960A has been modified. The G12T-75's were removed and sold. All the screws were tightened the handles were glued to prevent rattles. I cut two, four inch holes in the back panel. In the holes went aperiodic vents. Real quickly, they make speakers think they are in a larger box. A thick pad of fiberglass was applied to the back. (Not shown in the pictures is the cut out in the fiberglass for the center post.)

I've currently tried several combo's of speakers. In the picture is the Black Powder and the Tonespotter. I really like the Black Powder and would recommend it for those who play any type of heavy metal with drop tunings. The Black Powder has a low resonance and has a tight midrange with a nice splash of highs. A 412 of these would make a killer thrash, death, or grindcore speaker. Palm mutes are brutal and tight.

I just pulled the Private Jacks out and installed the Tonespotters. The Private Jacks are clones of Greenbacks and the Tonespotter is a clone of the G12-65. It's 2:40 AM and I can't play right now. I'll be curious to see how the Tonespotters sound as the response curve is similar to the Private Jack.

I'll post more later on the tone of the speakers. Here are some pictures.

Stock G12T-75 still in the cab.






Back side of the two, aperiodic vents.






Back panel showing the two, aperiodic vents.






Slab of fiberglass on back panel. I had to cut a notch out for the center post.






Black Powder and Tonespotters.






Black Powder






Tonespotter






Finished cab ready for testing.


----------



## solarburn

Very cool Marty. Good to see all that. Sounds like fun to me hehe. I was hoping you'd show the vents so I could see what they looked like. Look forward to more results.

Awesome shit!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Joe. The Black Powder seems to be like the Raytheon Black Plate. It matches up good with a lot of speakers, like the Raytheon matches up with a lot of tubes.

I promise I will get to the Wizards. I will have to check some frequency charts to see what will mate up with the Wizards. I have the Swamp Thangs that I want to find a match for as well. I have four, 412 cabs, so I have enough cabs to go around.

Once I am set on the speakers in the 1960A cab, I will be changing out the speaker wire to 14 gauge and soldering every connection.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Great job Marty. I can't wait to hear more. Nice work on the 1960.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Marty:

I'm a big fan of the Eminence speakers, as well. I much prefer them to the Celestion line in general. They just seem to have "thicker" sound, model for model. Maybe it's just my ears, but that's how I hear them and what I prefer. For a number of reasons I'm currently using Celestion G12H30's, but I don't love them and I have every intention of switching back to the comparable Eminenece pieces as soon as circumstance allows, so I'm keenly interested in what you're doing here.

I've got 2 questions:
1. Any particular reason you went with vents on the rear as opposed to ports in the front?
2. Why did you only add insulation to the back panel as opposed to adding the sides, top and bottom as well?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Michael1987xl said:


> Marty:I've got 2 questions:
> 1. Any particular reason you went with vents on the rear as opposed to ports in the front?
> 2. Why did you only add insulation to the back panel as opposed to adding the sides, top and bottom as well?



1. The aperiodic vents are not normal vents. They "load" the air space in the cabinet. They fool the speakers into thinking they are in a larger cabinet. The Aperiodic Vent is an air flow resistant, dampening device very useful in sealed box applications. It works by reducing the maximum impedance at the box resonance by at least 50%. This results in clearer, better defined bass, with more amplifier power and control into the lower frequencies. It also allows the use of a driver in a smaller than optimum sealed enclosure. The vent should be mounted to the cabinet back wall in a 4-5/16" (110 mm) diameter hole.

2. The amount of insulation I used is sufficient to take care of any standing waves in the cab. I may fool around with this as the aperiodic vents can handle as much as 60 percent insulation in the box.

I'm not really going by the speakers specifications. I'm just using my ear and trying different combos. I am checking the frequency charts though and using them to make suitable pairs.


----------



## rykus

WOW and i thought tube rolling was getting to be an expensive hobby... thanks alot for posting up all this info you guys. i'm really curious to see how these different speakers stack up, specialy with the 800. although i'm going to have to do any speaker tests in my little practice amp cause the idea of buying 4 speakers and not liking em is not super appealling, and i found i could really hear the difference in tube sounds even between different ones of the same brand in the little guy where as once jamming with drums n stuff i hear less details and more overall effect. i saw a test run on a little baby marshall tube amp today (mark 5?)that got me thinking, 400 bucks... probly be great for tube speaker rollin. anyways just popin in to see whats new. cheers 
doug


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it can be real expensive. I guess I'm trying to help the economy and buy American. Don't be a stranger. Stop by any time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought those Man 'O War's were loud. Them Wizards are louder. There are only like four speakers I can pair them up with. I wanted to go with the Private Jacks, but I may not be able to. The Wizards are 3dB louder than the Private Jacks. That would be pushing the match.

FYI JOE-The thing about the Wizard is that it is already two speakers in one. To quote Eminence: "a 12" speaker with enchanting tonal characteristics borrowed from the Private Jack and The Governor." In Celestion terms this would be a Greenback and a V30, although I feel the Eminence speakers are not as mushy as a Celestion.

There are those that state an Eminence speaker is "tight" out of the box and takes a long time to break in. I don't know about that. My Man "O War's sound really good to me and I've been using them for three years.

Joe, this is another speaker that has extended high end. Most guitar speakers top out at 4.5 to 5.5KHz. The Wizard is rated to 6KHz. Very articulate, but with a hint of grit. Nice sustain and exceptionally good tight bottom. With a 20 watt amp, one Wizard would be as loud as some 212 cabs.


----------



## rykus

sorry just a quick question, what is free air ressonance that was mentioned when comparing the black powder to the black mountian? how would this affect the overall sound of a speaker? i kind of understand some of the speaker ratings like obviosly the graph is easy and the Db is pretty strait forward but some of the other terms are a bit beyond my present comprehension level.... thanks 
doug


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought those Man 'O War's were loud. Them Wizards are louder. There are only like four speakers I can pair them up with. I wanted to go with the Private Jacks, but I may not be able to. The Wizards are 3dB louder than the Private Jacks. That would be pushing the match.
> 
> FYI JOE-The thing about the Wizard is that it is already two speakers in one. To quote Eminence: "a 12" speaker with enchanting tonal characteristics borrowed from the Private Jack and The Governor." In Celestion terms this would be a Greenback and a V30, although I feel the Eminence speakers are not as mushy as a Celestion.
> 
> There are those that state an Eminence speaker is "tight" out of the box and takes a long time to break in. I don't know about that. My Man "O War's sound really good to me and I've been using them for three years.
> 
> Joe, this is another speaker that has extended high end. Most guitar speakers top out at 4.5 to 5.5KHz. The Wizard is rated to 6KHz. Very articulate, but with a hint of grit. Nice sustain and exceptionally good tight bottom. With a 20 watt amp, one Wizard would be as loud as some 212 cabs.



Well I do have a 112 cab I can put a Wizard in. Also the Monza is a bit dark so a speaker with some high end to it would be fine especially if its articulate and can handle the fat bottom the Monza has too. Really it sounds like a good match although I haven't ruled out the Black Powder's either. One thing I know is its gonna be louder than it already is if I use a Wizard hehe. That's ok.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rykus said:


> sorry just a quick question, what is free air ressonance that was mentioned when comparing the black powder to the black mountian? how would this affect the overall sound of a speaker? i kind of understand some of the speaker ratings like obviosly the graph is easy and the Db is pretty strait forward but some of the other terms are a bit beyond my present comprehension level.... thanks
> doug



Well a quick answer is this. Every speaker has a free air resonance. On a 12 inch guitar speaker, it can be between 65 and 120Hz (or cycles per second). When a speaker hits its free air resonance, the speaker cone is moving at max excursion with the least amount of power and the impedance (ohms) is very high, say 32 ohms. At resonant frequency, the speaker is at its most efficient state, even though the impedance is high.

Now just like a speaker, a cabinet has a resonant frequency as well. This is something that needs to be taken into consideration, especially for bass cabinets. This is why most traditional bass cabs are very heavy. The design of the cab puts the resonant frequency down low. However, now with the popularity of 5 and 6 string basses, these cabs can run into problems. To fix the "moaning," better bracing is called for. This is no different than ignoring your speaker cab for too long. I just bought the used 1960A cab and when I went to pull the speakers, the mounting screws were loose. I took a powered drill/driver in "ratchet" mode and tightened up all of the brace and baffle screws. Many were loose. I also repaired one of the plastic handles. You see, ignoring this can cause unwanted noises. You could hit an A power chord and hear some weird noise. Any cab, even a 112 should be checked periodically, because when the frequency of the speaker finds the resonant frequency of the cab, the cab will try to vibrate itself to death, unless it is braced properly.


----------



## jerryjg

I wrote an email to Eminence asking for advice on what ceramic to pair with my Red Fang in a 2x12 Small '68 Bassman cabinet. Eminence wrote back with some great info . I'll share it;

QUOTE-I would say that Private Jack is the ceramic that sounds most similar to
Red Fang and they actually sound very nice together. If you would like
to consider adding more contrast rather than something so similar, I
really like to pair Red Fang with either the Governor (for really thick
mid contrast, tight lows, and warm/smooth highs) or the Wizard (for
artiuclate highs, bigger/punchier lows, abundant harmonic content).-END QUOTE

I haven't seen alot of info. on the pairing of ceramics with Alnicos.
I'm thinking of pairing a Wizard( like a g12h30) with the Red fang and its the same sensitivity at 103DB, so they should work well together, with the Governor appearing to be a bit louder cause of the big lows.


----------



## rykus

i missed out on a 16ohm weber 10" bluedog yesterday on ebay 70 bucks! doh guy got it for 71.... i was pre emptively going to hoard it away for a marshall class 5 i decided to order.... although i did score some very high testing telefunked and valvo power tubes the valvo's tested @ 52 new being 48 and the tele's test @ 80!!! can't wait to get that little beast. it should be a bit cheaper for speaker/tube rolling. i'll post up some results when it arrives.cheers all thanks for the info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like the tubes were tested on a TV-7 tester where 32 is the minimum? If so, the tube that tested at 80 is probably going to be to "hot" to use in the gain stage. Let me know if it was a TV-7 tester.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Anyone here compare the current production Greenbacks to Scumbacks or original pre-Rola Celestion?


----------



## MartyStrat54

jerryjg said:


> I wrote an email to Eminence asking for advice on what ceramic to pair with my Red Fang in a 2x12 Small '68 Bassman cabinet. Eminence wrote back with some great info . I'll share it;
> 
> QUOTE-I would say that Private Jack is the ceramic that sounds most similar to
> Red Fang and they actually sound very nice together. If you would like
> to consider adding more contrast rather than something so similar, I
> really like to pair Red Fang with either the Governor (for really thick
> mid contrast, tight lows, and warm/smooth highs) or the Wizard (for
> artiuclate highs, bigger/punchier lows, abundant harmonic content).-END QUOTE
> 
> I haven't seen alot of info. on the pairing of ceramics with Alnicos.
> I'm thinking of pairing a Wizard( like a g12h30) with the Red fang and its the same sensitivity at 103DB, so they should work well together, with the Governor appearing to be a bit louder cause of the big lows.



I thought I had already answered this. Maybe you put it in a different thread. Anyway, very informative. They sell the Wizard and the Red Fang in matched pairs at the music stores. Thing is, the Red Fang has jumped in price. I got mine for $90 on EBAY and it is in my DSL401. They retail for over $250.


----------



## rykus

hey marty , ya it was a tv-7 i think, its a big tube seller in germany on ebay but they had a whole lot of telefunken el84's these where the highest testing pair, but they said average new was 48 so they should last awhile! the valvos even test a bit over new @ 52. i'm going to get a little stash of el84's for a class 5. seems like a good little practice test amp so i can roll tubes and speakers. i find i can hear alot more of the charachter of both if i can do low volume testing too.... the nmv amps are kinda hard to get any tone except when alittle too loud.... for morning and late anyways!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I'm sorry. I was thinking 12AX7's. Those scores are good for the EL84's.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty told me he is really digging the Black Powder speakers. He has tried them with several other pairs, but is surprised how smooth they sound with the Tonespotters. Looking forward to more reports. Rock on Marty.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, that's right. The Tonespotters (G12-65's) sound really good with the Black Powders. This might just be the pair right here.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Marty,

Any way to check with your guy from Eminence about their various 10" speakers? We got a good rundown of the 12" versions, and we thank you for that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I don't think they make any Celestion clones in the 10-inch size. What are you wanting to do? Are you just wanting a run down of their 10's? If so, the Eminence home page is listed here, but I will post it again. It lists their 10, 12 and 15-inch speakers with sound clips.

Personally, I have used the Copperhead, Rajun Cajun and Delta Demon.

Eminence - The leader in guitar speaker tone. Upgrades for Celestion, Jensen and Fane.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I don't think they make any Celestion clones in the 10-inch size. What are you wanting to do? Are you just wanting a run down of their 10's? If so, the Eminence home page is listed here, but I will post it again. It lists their 10, 12 and 15-inch speakers with sound clips.
> 
> Personally, I have used the Copperhead, Rajun Cajun and Delta Demon.
> 
> Eminence - The leader in guitar speaker tone. Upgrades for Celestion, Jensen and Fane.



What were your impressions of those 3?

This would be for a possible replacement in my Class 5 down the road. I've barely gotten it broken in just yet. It needs more  first.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would recommend the Rajin Cajun and second would be the Ramrod.


----------



## MM54

Veering away from guitar speakers for a second, Marty, did you ever find out anything about those speakers I PM'ed you about a few days ago?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Veering away from guitar speakers for a second, Marty, did you ever find out anything about those speakers I PM'ed you about a few days ago?



I sent you a reply, but I don't know where it went. I will make this short. My master book of speaker numbers does not match up with your numbers. I said to take a black light and look for dark blue ink numbers on the edge of the magnet. It's hard to say what they are as they look generic. Magnavox had their speakers made for them and then put their brand on the speaker.

Without the actual speaker number, I can't be of any help.


----------



## Gtarzan81

From the clips on the site, I liked the Red Fang and the Rajun Cajun the best. They seems to have a decent balance to them, without being too dark sounding. A bit of top end sparkle on them.

The copperhead and delta demon seemed to be darker sounding speakers. Good for taming a very bright amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't include the 10-inch Red Fang, because of its price. You didn't like the Ramrod? What are your comments on it?


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> I didn't include the 10-inch Red Fang, because of its price. You didn't like the Ramrod? What are your comments on it?



The ramrod doesn't have as much highs as the Fang or Cajun, but seems brighter than the delta. It seems to almost add a but of crunch on the overdrive.


----------



## DSL50newbie

I saw a video on youtube the other day about breaking in speakers. The dude used 6.3 VAC (off of used PT I assume) and hooked it up directly to the speakers for at least 12-24 hrs. It made a loud hum and he claims this is the quickest way to break in new speakers. Is this a safe practice? has anyone tried this method with good results?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I say it's possible, however I would question the amount of current that is available. If it is a used PT, then there could be a lot of current behind that 6.3AC. If you have an L-pad on the voltage that would limit the excursion of the speakers. Over excursion will damage the speakers, not break them in.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, did you ever get your backorder? I hope so.


----------



## rykus

it's funny i thought i missed the deal of the century when i missed the weber alnico last week, i was so bummed that i missed it i went to the weber site and discovered there only 95 bucks new! has anyone had much experiance with these? my amp tech builds tweed delux copies and i tried one with an alnico weber and it was bad ass! but thats probly the amp too. still they seem cheap compared to the other 10" alnicos that are all a higher wattage and way higher price. i'm going to experiment alot though with my little class 5 when it comes in... but at 250-300 for a good speaker it might take awhile! have you got the 800 yet marty i saw in the power tube sction ur going with the 6ca7's i definatly want to know how that is going to sound! i really want an 800 too but i have a problem with buying amps so ive made it harder for my self by buying coloured ones....and i really want a nice white 50w 800! so it might take a while but it would look sweet on my red '70 cab and my orange '71..... ya i might have some problems


----------



## MartyStrat54

Weber is a solid brand and I know a lot of Fender players like the Weber speakers. Yes, alnico's have jumped in price. I sort of wished I had bought more when the 12-inch Red Fang was on EBAY for $90. Now I just have one and it is currently in my DSL401. I recently sold a 401 and a 602 as I bought two, old school amps.

My 800 is almost done and it you go to my "I'm Wilderfied!" thread, you will see some pictures that Jon posted up.

Searching for the right speaker can be worse than finding the right amp. As always, I suggest that you try it out with your guitar and amp, before buying it blindly on name or heresy.


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> Searching for the right speaker can be worse than finding the right amp.



You've got that right. About the only thing worse than the search is finding that speaker and then discovering it's been discontinued when you go to build your second cabinet. 

Eminence, as much as I love them and their stuff, pulled this on me with the Modeling 12. That thing had been around for YEARS, then it was just _gone_. I wrote them to find a comparable piece and to his credit Tony Lucas got back to me in record time recommending another model, but honestly, it's wasn't all that close. I'm back to square one on that front.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I dig the Eminence stuff and even have their speaker design software. Anthony Lucas is a great guy to know. I remember the Modeling 12 speaker. I never used it. However, I was using Eminence when all they had was their Legends line. The Patriot and the Red Coat speakers have really taken off. If I had deeper pockets, I would have a 412 cab with Black Mountains in it. Those are close to $300 each. I don't think one would do me.


----------



## Michael1987xl

It's probably a good thing you never used them, Marty; you'd be trying to find something as good to this day and driving your self _nuts_ in the process, believe me. Best sounding guitar speaker I ever heard, hands down; versatile, crisp and bright when you wanted it, smooth mid's, killer bottom end, they could do _anything_. They could handle plenty of power, make any head sound great and a 2x12 sound HUGE. 

Do you know anyone who has stock of old Eminence stuff? I'm jonesin' for another pair of those _big_ time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah when Eminence was just an OE supplier, they made some great speakers. If you can find an old cab with Eminence's in them, you found something.

Their biggest competitor was CTS and they went out of business a long time ago.

Randall used Eminence in their product. I had a 212 combo I bought and I put Eminence Red, White and Blues in the amp. The old Eminence I sold on EBAY and they brought more money than most used Celestions.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Marty:

This speaker doesn't even go back that far. I bought a pair of them about 7 or 8 years ago. best speaker purchase ever.

I'd give my eye teeth to find another new pair of these things. Hell, for 2 pairs, I'd give a lung.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So if I found four of them, you'd give me a lung?


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> So if I found four of them, you'd give me a lung?



Absolutely. 

I never said it would be _mine_.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Forward: FYI

Hey Marty,

I doubt you'll be able to find any. They've been discontinued for several years.

FWIW....I think our Tonkerlite is a better modeling amp speaker than the Modeling 12 was. It has better headroom and better low end definition. It's very balanced, clean, warm and smooth with nice, clear, open highs. Plus, it only weighs 4.5lbs!


Regards,

Anthony Lucas
Eminence Speakers


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> Forward: FYI
> 
> Hey Marty,
> 
> I doubt you'll be able to find any. They've been discontinued for several years.
> 
> FWIW....I think our Tonkerlite is a better modeling amp speaker than the Modeling 12 was. It has better headroom and better low end definition. It's very balanced, clean, warm and smooth with nice, clear, open highs. Plus, it only weighs 4.5lbs!
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Anthony Lucas
> Eminence Speakers



Well, that's the bad news.

The good news is I can cancel my order with _Lungs 'R' Us_.

Oddly enough, Anthony had originally recommended the Legend GB128 when he wrote me about this.

The quest continues.


----------



## joshuaaewallen




----------



## joshuaaewallen

michael1987xl said:


> absolutely.
> 
> I never said it would be _mine_.



lmao!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it's gotten to the point that we are trading body parts for gear. Sad.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Mary! How ya been man? Haven't talked w/ ya in a long time mate!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Eminence Speakers Helps Players Get Better Tone at Lower Volume*



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Josh, one page back I had contacted Anthony at Eminence about this very question, because I wanted to know for sure myself. Here is the run down.
> 
> Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75.
> Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
> Greenback is Private Jack.
> Alnico Blue is Red Fang.
> G12-65 is Tonespotter.
> G12H30 is the Wizard...



This is some very simple, but useful know how. Thanks Marty.



joshuaaewallen said:


> By Marc Johnson for The Tone King
> 
> For those of you who aren’t in the know about Big Tony, he is a guitar player and the Senior Lab Tech at Eminence Speakers. In addition to being with Eminence for over 10 years, he also writes columns for players who want to know how speakers work. While other guys are just trying to sell you something for the sake of profit, Tony and the folks at Eminence prefer to educate people on how gear actually works, and you know The Tone King is all about the education. Well, our buddy Big Tony and Eminence Speakers have come up with something that just may revolutionize speaker technology. Just like you, at TTK, we are always cranking our amps up. And, like you, when we go on the road, the first thing we hear from the sound guy is “Turn that damn thing down!” We know that our best sound lies at ten, but we are condemned to the hell of keeping our amps at low volumes.
> Eminence’s Flux Density Modulation (FDM) Technology is an all-analog mechanism that is actually built into the speaker itself. Without using attenuation circuits, FDM Technology keeps the signal path as unaffected as possible. The dial on the back of the speaker mechanically manipulates the flux path and relative densities within a loudspeaker motor structure. The FDM knob can attenuate the signal up to 9db. To anyone who has used attenuators before, generally that’s about as far as you can go before you really start noticing a significant (i.e. bad) change in your tone. According to their website, www.Eminence.com/fdm, Eminence’s FDM technology will be available in two of their speaker lines, the Patriot and the Red Coat series, and two different models, the Maverick and the ReignMaker.
> In addition to attenuating your signal, the FDM will also allow you to accentuate the tones that you already get from your amp. When you add more attenuation, your tone will get warmer as your volume goes down, and when you remove attenuation, your tone will get brighter as you get louder. This feature will give players the ability to actually manipulate the characteristics of the speaker, providing them with more options and dynamics.
> Maybe, once we get our hands on them, we’ll do another tutorial on speaker installation and show you how to pop them in your favorite cabinet. Until then, TheToneKing.com is looking forward to taking these out for a test drive as well as seeing what else Big Tony and Eminence has in store for us down the road.
> ​



Now these bad boys...   ... I know they are very new on the market, but I would soooo love to hear some feedback on these!


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## MM54

Alright, this summer I plan to build a 4x12, but my main concern is speakers. My only cab now is the M412 (B) and I really like the speakers in it. They are Eminence AX-75, which is where the problem is - I can't find them ANYWHERE. I have no idea what it would cost to use them, I can't even find them on ebay, google images/shopping, anything.

What do we know about them (other than I like them)?


----------



## Michael1987xl

MM54 said:


> They are Eminence AX-75, which is where the problem is - I can't find them ANYWHERE. I have no idea what it would cost to use them, I can't even find them on ebay, google images/shopping, anything.
> 
> What do we know about them (other than I like them)?



The AX75 is an OEM piece that Eminence makes for Marshall. I know that they come in the MA series cabinets. It looks like they're rated at 75 watts/16 ohms, but that's about it. I can't even find out if they're a re-badged version of something from Eminence's standard line or an out-and-out custom/OEM-only thing. 

If you go to the Eminence web site and use the "contact us" link to send them an e-mail, Anthony Lucas is usually the guy that writes back. That's probably your best bet. Being that this speaker, with that model name at least, appears to be a "custom" Marshall part, he probably can't give you the exact spec's, or what pseaker it actually is, but he may be able to tell you what the current, production line speaker would be comparable. That should get you going in the right direction.


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## MM54

Yeah, I e-mailed them about it and he says he doesn't recognize the number and asked if I saw any other numbers on the speaker. I don't have pictures from last time I opened up the cab, so I guess next time I have the back off I'll see what other numbers and codes are hiding in there.

And welcome to the forum, Brocrellult.


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## MartyStrat54

As been mentioned, it is probably and OE speaker and Eminence will not be able to sell you any. To get a replacement is probably a long procedure and having to go through Marshall to get one, or four.

I wanted Eminence to make me a speaker, a copy of a JBL D123. They tried for months and got no where. Now if they had been able to make something close, I would have exclusive rights to the speaker and controlled all the selling. They will not reveal any info about an OE speaker.


----------



## MM54

They wouldn't even tell me which of their publicly-sellable models is closest to it?


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## Michael1987xl

MM54 said:


> They wouldn't even tell me which of their publicly-sellable models is closest to it?



Have you asked them? Without giving away any trade secrets, they pointed me in the right direction more than once.


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## MartyStrat54

Anthony Lucas | Customer Service
Eminence Speaker LLC
P.O. Box 360
838 Mulberry Pike
Eminence, KY 40019

Phone: 502.845.5622 Ext. 341
Fax: 502.845.5653
Eminence - The Leader in guitar speakers, bass speakers, and pro audio loudspeakers. Great upgrades for JBL, Celestion, Jensen, and Fane.


----------



## MM54

Me said:


> Yeah, I e-mailed them about it and he says he doesn't recognize the number (AX-75) and asked if I saw any other numbers on the speaker. I don't have pictures from last time I opened up the cab, so I guess next time I have the back off I'll see what other numbers and codes are hiding in there.



.


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## Rockin_Lisa

You'll probably have to get that info from Marshall. They probably can be had through them, but who knows how much they want for one.


----------



## oakfloor

With all the talk about "Greenbacks" and which ones better, can anyone link me to a demos, or recordings that made them so popular? BTW I have two "made in england" GB's bought new in the late 90's what do you think of them? Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the best thing to do is just load them in a cab and play them. They are one of the warmer Celestion speakers. There are a lot of clones out there. I use the Private Jacks by Eminence. They are rated for more power, but are still a warmer sounding speaker.

If you look through this thread, there are some links. I can't remember if there is a Celestion link for the Greenbacks though. You might try a search on YouTube.


----------



## rykus

hey you guy's sorry if this is a redundant question but what are the best way to break in speakers? i just got a little class 5 and played it at varrying but loud volumes, is it bad to push the speaker if its new or good? what would be the ideal volume /time frame for proper breakin period? thanks and once again sorry if this is redundant. doug


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're really not going to create a lot of cone excursion with the Class 5. I think you are safe doing what you are doing. Play it clean at different volumes, as this is more demanding than a distorted signal. Guitars really don't put out much below 80Hz, unless you drop tune or have a 7-String. Just play away and the cone, surround and spider should break in nicely.


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## MartyStrat54

Well I took one of my 412 cabs loaded with vintage alnico speakers and did a tried and true replacement of Texas Heat and Governor's. Blows the old speakers away. Night and day difference. Plus a lot more power handling. I can crank it and spank it without worrying about melting voice coils.

This is a good blend. I was surprised at how well they work together. Nice little peak in the midrange for good clarity and bite. Man I love Eminence speakers. They should give me some free speakers for all the support I give them.

Anyways, awesome set up. Tried it with the TSL100 as I am still without my two vintage amps. I can't wait to hear that JMP 2203 through the other cab with the Black Powder and Tonespotters in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and I tried the Wizards with the Private Jacks and the Wizards were just too much. Man are they loud. They were just way over the top on the Private Jacks. The only thing that would be in the ballpark would be Man 'O War speakers. I only have them in 8 ohm and I would need 16 ohm models to conduct the test. The Man 'O War speakers are actually louder than the Wizards. The MOW is rated at 105.6dB with one watt. Think how loud a full stack would be with these. Mind blowing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Trying my best to keep this thread alive. Please post any comments on any speakers you have tried. Also, if you have a question, I will try to answer it.

Thiele and Small parameters, venting, custom builds, ask away.


----------



## thrawn86

Actually, I was wondering about a Bass cab.......what do you recommend for speakers? Is the trend toward aluminum cone construction the way to go, or otherwise?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Personally, my favorite bass rig is a JBL D, K, or E-140 fifteen-inch with two high wattage 10-inch speakers. The JBL on it's own sounds great, but the 10's add more high end presence and increases the power handling. However, with a rig like this and say a big Peavey bass amp, you would bi-amp this rig for maximum tone and efficiency.

I will say that because of certain marketing strategies, the 410 cab is now the most popular cabinet. It has all gone full circle from the days of the original Ampeg SVT amp with the 810 cab. All that has been done is cut the cab in half for ease of transporting. Massive 10's will give you a tight sound, but your low end will suffer. If you are a five string player a 15 or 18 is a must. 

The JBL will work good in a six cubic foot "ported" cabinet. The volume of a 1960B cab is just under this, so imagine a shorter, deeper cab for the 15. The JBL is rated at 400 watts RMS. The ten's that I use are rated at 300 watts. The good JBL's are not made anymore. You have to find them. I have two, E-120's that I got a good deal on. They are in near mint condition. Recone kits are still available at JBL authorized shops, but they are like $300 to recone. Yeah, all the good stuff is expensive now.


----------



## Hillcountry

Hi all,
I joined because I have loved this speaker thread so much. I have also learned a tremendous amount from you all.

I, too, have a pair of Wizards (16 ohm) and they are incredibly loud. They are very "tight" when new and I feel like there was a certain sizzle that I didn't like. I had pretty much written them off and threw them in the bottom of a small 4x12 I made to mess around with my JTM-45 clone. So that has two Wizards and two Greenbacks. I was playing it the other day and they are finally starting to break in. The cab is beginning to sound great. It has about 50 hours on it now though...they take a while to loosen up.

I also have two Legend GB128 speakers which are awesome. For a while I had them in a cab with two Eminence Ramrods which are a 10 inch speaker. The solid lows of the Legends were great with the spank of the 10's. I ended up turning that cab into the 4x12 above. 

I also tried Celestion Golds which are really nice. They sounded like an old speaker out of the box. They worked very well with the JTM45 clone. I ended up selling them to someone who wanted them more than I did.


Anyway...great forum...great thread...thanks for all of your helpful info!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad to have you. Great first post. Yeah, those Wizard's are loud. I stuck them in a 412 cab with the Eminence clones of a Celestion Greenback, the Private Jack and it didn't work out. The Wizards were overpowering. The Man 'O War speakers are even louder a more than 105dB! However, from a dB standpoint, they would match up with the Wizards at +103dB. Man that would make for a sick cabinet. A 20 watt amp would slay the dragon.

My favorite Eminence speaker right now is the Black Powder. It has a really tight bottom with solid mids and articulate highs. Not muddy at all. (And they aren't even broken in yet!)

I have a pair of the Legend GB128 speakers as well. They are true classic Brit sounding speakers from Eminence.

There are about ten other Eminence speakers that I would like to try, but I will have to hold off for a while.


----------



## Hillcountry

Black Powder...now I will have to try those out. I wonder how they would match up with the Wizard. Thank you for the tip on the Private Jacks...I was heading that direction since the Wizards drown out the Greenbacks I have running with them. Time to do some research!

I have tried the Wizards open back...and they became shrill. They work best for me in a smaller cab that is closed. I'll keep using them as they break in though they are really coming into their own.

They make my 18watt as loud can be though...


-Hillcountry


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## MartyStrat54

If you open the attached pdf file, you can look on the left side of the page and you will see that Eminence recommends the Wizard be used in sealed back enclosures. The "spider" on a Wizard is on the light side and if used in an open back it could cause over excursion making for flabby bass and undefined sound.

It's always best to go to the Eminence site or Parts Express to view the info on any Eminence speaker you are interested in. That way, you will know what sort of cab they like and also, if you know how to read graphs, you can get a good idea about which speakers to match.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-862s.pdf


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## MartyStrat54

Black Powder info:

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-808s.pdf


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## MartyStrat54

I'm working with a guy and he is loading a cab with Texas Heat and Red, White and Blues. I'm curious to see how those two pair up. Once he communicates with me, I let you know.


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## Stymie13

Hey Marty, 

You ever try a Texas Heat and a Man O' War? Seems like they might pair up well. Or one of those new Black Powders and a Texas Heat. I would almost pair a Man O' War with a Wizard in my JME 2-12" but I really like the voicing of the TH to compliment the Wizard. I could use an 8 ohm speaker in that cab since I've already got it wired up with two 8's for 16 ohm... I got a little extra cash...


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## MartyStrat54

The only thing that sucks is that the Black Powder is only available in 8 ohm. It's not a problem matching up the Texas Heat as they are available in 8 ohms as well. If you are using a 1960 cab with the switchable back plate, you got to make very sure you are on 8 ohms and "not on 2 ohms."


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## Hillcountry

I saw that about the Black Powder being 8 ohms. A friend of mine gave me two Vintage 30's which are 8 ohms, so maybe I could pair them with Black Powders...

I will soon have a garage full of speakers if I am not careful!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> I saw that about the Black Powder being 8 ohms. A friend of mine gave me two Vintage 30's which are 8 ohms, so maybe I could pair them with Black Powders...
> 
> I will soon have a garage full of speakers if I am not careful!



Well it can happen. I try to find a home for all my speakers. The one's I don't use anymore go on EBAY or Craig's List. I have three, 412 cabs so that is a dozen speakers and then I have some other 212 and 112 cabs. I actually have a storage unit full of stuff, so yes, it can accumulate. 

The Vintage 30's should pair up nice with the Black Powders. Give it a go and let me know what you think about it.


----------



## rykus

hey all, my little class 5 is starting to break in nicelly and my weber alnico is in vancouver probly get here mon. so i'll post an update when it does. i've had my eye on a 70's cab with celestion 65's in it as i really wanna try something a little different( all my cabs are green/black back 25w 'ers) and i was just wonering what the general caractaristics of the 65 is, i like the green back sound alot but it would be nice to get a bit higher watt cab too so i'm not as worried about cranken em up. and just for somethin allitle different! cheers
doug


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## MM54

Alright, remember that speaker I was asking about at the beginning of page 10? Well I got more numbers off it and e-mailed Eminence again a couple days ago - no reply. I'll post the numbers here and see if perhaps Marty knows what speaker in their production line the AX-75 (which is Marshall OEM) is.

Copy/paste of the e-mail I sent Wednesday:
Sorry for the long delay, I've been busy and not had time to open the cab back up until this morning.

There are a lot of numbers, they are as follows:
On the sticker on top of the magnet it says Eminence, Marshall, etc. Only useful things are "AX-75" and "SPKR 91004"
Side of the magnet has a sticker showing RoHS compliance, "16 Ohm", "791209", "09 27A 1086", "DG08-12-039", and the little "do not throw away' symbol.
I couldn't find any numbers on the basket.
Cone number is "3 23 098" on two of them, the other has "3 23 097"

--End E-mail--

I'm attaching a picture of the back of my cab, perhaps it may help.


----------



## Hillcountry

OK...so I have a 4x12 with two Wizards on the bottom...16 ohm each. Right now I have two greenbacks on the top. I have them split so I can run two amps at once through the cab and each input goes to a Wizard and Greenback. The GBs get a bit overwhelmed by the Wizards, but I am worried I will toast them with my rig. I run my JTM45 (37 watts) through one pair, and my superlead/6v6 amp (about 45 watts), through the other. Will I toast the greenbacks with the 45 watt amp. Marty, I know you have said the rating is based on the RMS, so I imagine I won't kill the greenbacks.

That being said. What would you suggest as a good pairing with the Wizard, that is 16 ohm. I can't afford the Eminence Alnicos...but I love Eminence speakers.
-Geoff


----------



## MartyStrat54

In that arrangement the Greenback could be at risk. This depends on if you are cranking the amp. The Wizards are rated at 75WRMS and the Greenbacks are only 25 watts. You take the formula of the lowest rated speaker times the number of drivers. In this case, 25W X 2 = 50 watts. This means that you can play in the 50 watt range with the Wizard and the Greenback.

About the only thing that is as strong as a Wizard is the Man 'O War. I haven't paired those, but he would be one loud fugger.

Other loud Eminence speakers are the Cannabis Rex, Swamp Thang, The Governor, and The Tonker. These are all 102dB speakers and should match up good volume wise.


----------



## Hillcountry

I think I might try the Cannabis Rex. I like how it has a mellower top end. The Wizards are very prominent in the upper mids. 

Thanks for the advise. I figured I would kill the Greenbacks. They are British too, so I want to take care of them.
Thanks!
-Geoff


----------



## jerryjg

really diggin the swamp thing, but its hard to jusdge the impact of the low end in those clips. Is it as tight and jackhammer - like of a low end as the G12K-100? 
I like the top end too on the Thangs. Seems like its got enuf sparkle for being what it os claimed to be- a beast.


----------



## solarburn

Hillcountry said:


> I think I might try the Cannabis Rex. I like how it has a mellower top end. The Wizards are very prominent in the upper mids.
> 
> Thanks for the advise. I figured I would kill the Greenbacks. They are British too, so I want to take care of them.
> Thanks!
> -Geoff



I've been reading good reviews on the CR speakers. If you get some I'd like to hear what you think. I already have the Black Powders bookmarked...on the list.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Break In Period?*

Hi guys.

Throughout this thread I have read multiple times comments made about speakers being broken in. For some reason this concept has never even entered my consciousness. A motor in a car needs to be broken in, why not a speaker, right? That being said...

Until recently I have never owned new speakers before, but as of late I have acquired a new PRS Dallas 2x12 w/ Celestion Vintage 30's in it. It sounds great, but now I have a few questions:

1) What is the typical break-on period?
2) How do I go about actually "breaking in" a new set of speakers?
3) Is there anything in particular that I should not do in order to avoid damaging my investment?

Thanks a bunch guys, I look forward to all the info on this you may have to offer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From Celestion:

Important Note! Before breaking it in it's advisable to "warm up" the speaker gently for a few minutes with low-level playing or background hum.

Break in a speaker with a fat, clean tone: turn up the power amp volume to full, and control the level with the preamp gain. Use a level that will be quite loud, but not painful in a normal size room.

Have the bass and mid up full, and the treble at least half. On your guitar, use the middle pick up position (if your guitar has more than one pick up) and play for 10-15 minutes using lots of open chords, and chunky percussive playing. This will get the cone moving, and should excite all the cone modes and get everything to settle in nicely. The speaker will continue to mature over the years, but this will get it 95% of the way to tonal perfection in the shortest time.
*********************************************************

The bottom line Josh is that the suspension of a speaker is tight when new. Playing clean open chords in fast repetition will cause the cone to move more. I think that if you play some open chord progressions for about 15 minutes, then you can go on to your regular playing. Try to do this for at least two weeks. There are other ways to do it as well. If you have a tape deck, you can record a 30 minute low end signal, say 70Hz and then play it back through your guitar speakers. This will really get it to break in at a faster pace. Finally, I use an signal generator and I set it for 75Hz and it continuously puts out a steady sine or square wave. The square wave really gets the speaker going. I do this for about 12 hours and they are broken in.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That's some good info. Thanks Marty! I wish I had known this when I bought the cab. I usually play most of my stuff on the crunch and lead channels, but I think it would be a good idea to run through this break-in process, because they really haven't been cranked or played much w/ any good full & warm chords like you prescribed. Thanks again, I appreciate the 411.


----------



## Stymie13

I've noticed recently (since I've been condemned to suffer bedroom/neighbor friendly volume playing for eternity) that the top right speaker in my 4-12 has developed a slight but noticeable high frequency buzzing at these lower volumes. It is imperceptible at normal volumes (apparently what some consider LOUD). They are Eminence Legend 1258s that I bought new when I had the cab custom built about 7 years ago. I have definitely isolated it to the top right speaker. I can't seem to dampen it by touching the basket or magnet, but haven't tried to touch the actual cone or dust cap. Can these types of things be identified and repaired or am I better off to just buy a new speaker?


----------



## Stymie13

Maybe I ought to run this by Marty's buddy over at Eminence...


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## MartyStrat54

It could be something on the speaker such as a loose dust cap or the tinsel lead wires are up against the cone or spider. I would pull the speaker and isolate it. You could then physically move the speaker to see if you hear/feel a rub. There's several other things it could be that are rarer, but I would check it out first.


----------



## Stymie13

Thanks Marty, I will investigate a little further. I will probably email Anthony over at Eminence as well. I'm always looking for a reason to buy some new gear! And I've really been wanting to try some other speakers mixed with the 1258s.


----------



## Stymie13

MartyStrat54 said:


> It could be something on the speaker such as a loose dust cap or the tinsel lead wires are up against the cone or spider. I would pull the speaker and isolate it. You could then physically move the speaker to see if you hear/feel a rub. There's several other things it could be that are rarer, but I would check it out first.



Yeah, I was hoping I could kinda tap on the speaker cone or somehow otherwise duplicate the frequency and isolate it. I'll post what I find...


----------



## Stymie13

I guess while I'm here I might as well ask...

Marty and I have discussed pairing an Eminence Wizard and Man O War and haven't had anyone jump in with any responses. What about the Celestion counterparts G12T-75 and G12H-30... Anyone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Doesn't Eminence have a six or seven year warranty on their speakers? I'd check into that as well. If you can get it replaced, four is better than three.


----------



## Stymie13

Maybe... that would be very cool. The receipts are probably long gone. Who knows, I may have them stashed somewhere in the archives.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stymie13 said:


> I guess while I'm here I might as well ask...
> 
> Marty and I have discussed pairing an Eminence Wizard and Man O War and haven't had anyone jump in with any responses. What about the Celestion counterparts G12T-75 and G12H-30... Anyone?



Yeah I'm bored with hearing about the G12T-75 and V30. There is a 3dB difference in that pairing.

I love experimenting. You never know what you'll end up with.


----------



## Hillcountry

Eminence has a great warranty on their speakers. Since the manufacture code is on the cone they seem to honor the warranty from the date of manufacture. Give their warranty dept a call and they will tell you what to do. Worst case scenario is that you spend a few dollars sending them a speaker and they will send it back if it is not warranted. 
-Geoff


----------



## Hillcountry

Oh...the Legend GB128 is a good pairing with the 1258...I have tried it and it sounds good.


----------



## Hillcountry

Ordered two 16 ohm Cannabis Rex tonight...when they get here I'll get them hooked up and going. I can't wait to pair them with the Wizards. 

Eminence do take a long time to break in though. Patience is key!
-Geoff


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> Eminence do take a long time to break in though. Patience is key!-Geoff



Yeah, they are tough birds. I think I had a pair that took over a year to break in. This was after I used a signal generator on it for 12 hours. These were some Swamp Thang's. I still think my Red Fang is not broken in. I was afraid to use a signal generator on it, but then they revised the power rating. It was 30 and then they said 50. I wish I had bought another pair before the prices went way up on all their alnico speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> Ordered two 16 ohm Cannabis Rex tonight...when they get here I'll get them hooked up and going. I can't wait to pair them with the Wizards.
> 
> Eminence do take a long time to break in though. Patience is key!
> -Geoff



I never have tried the Cannabis Rex. I will look forward to your review.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see that Parts Express now has the Black Mountain and Cannis Major in stock at $269 each. Damn, I'd love to try those Black Moutains. I got to look over the frequency graph on these speakers. Nice.

I also looked at the Cannabis Rex and Wizard. The Wizard has a dip at about 1.5KHz. However, the Cannabis Rex is strong in this region. The CR starts dropping off in the high end and the Wizard is good to 6KHz. 

On paper it looks like a perfect match.


----------



## 00jett

> Eminence do take a long time to break in though. Patience is key!





> I think I had a pair that took over a year to break in



I was actually just going to post tonight regarding this matter. I have a pair of Red, White, amd Blues, and though they get better with time they still seem pretty stiff sounding to me. Maybe its just the speaker.. They sounds good, but i wanna know what they are going to sound like in a year!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a pair as well in an old Randall 212 combo. They should be like new, as I do not play that combo at all. If I sell the amp, I'll probably pull the R,W and Blues and put in a pair of cheap speakers.

I think that the higher power handling speakers by Eminence have a very stiff suspension and this makes for a slow break-in. 

How do you like the Red, White and Blues? I find them to be a pretty smooth speaker.


----------



## 00jett

Im kindda mixed on them. Truth be told I love the sound of them directly from the amp, but i am having problems capturing the same tone & feel when I mic them. I dont know my only real experience with micing speakers is on celestions mostly, and the have enough upper mids that really seem to pop when use my mics (sm57 & sennhieser e906). I love the tone of the Red & Whites, but im loosing them in the mix a bit with a mic on them. Im thinking in might be the fault of the amp (blues deville)tho so I put a pair cheapo celestion 70/80s in it to see if they mic up any better. I'l try the red & whites in a 2x12 with the Marshall just for kicks. Any one else have micing expierence or tips?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well any mic change will make a difference. I have several mics for recording and I prefer a condenser. They seem to capture the mids/highs better. The R, W and Blue is a smooth speaker. It rolls off on the top end. Maybe this has something to do with how it records and/or gets lost in the mix.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-When are you going to buy four of those Black Mountains? Resonant frequency of 68Hz. Damn! I'll bet four of those would sound sweet with a cranked 50 watt amp. You would have to watch them with a 100 watt amp. They are only rated at 30WRMS, so a 412 would be 120WRMS. You would probably be okay, even if you were almost cranked full blast, but I would ask Eminence first. I'd hate to destroy $1080 worth of speakers.

Maybe Eminence will give me a couple of them for free, since I plug their products all the time. Did you see this Anthony?


----------



## MartyStrat54

EMINENCE ROCKS!!!

Did you see that Anthony?


----------



## Micky

Reported.
Haven't seen porn spam in quite some time!

Nice change from the cellphone/cvv/viagra/cialis stuff.


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## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> Reported.
> Haven't seen porn spam in quite some time!
> 
> Nice change from the cellphone/cvv/viagra/cialis stuff.



Good grief! You mean to tell me there was porn spam on this thread? Well they got rid of it mighty fast.


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## MM54

Damn, I missed it.


Anyways, I got a reply today (finally) and the AX-75 are OEM and they're not just relabeled production versions  He said a 38oz ceramic magnet and a 1 3/4" voice coil. Marshall said they're 75W but he estimated them at 50. Since they're special-made he couldn't tell me what they were closest to 

Ah well.


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## MartyStrat54

I sort of knew that was coming with my dealings with Eminence. In 2009, I was going to become an Eminence dealer, because I was going to have them make me a clone of a JBL D123 (one of the best speakers ever made). They were not able to make it and after 90 days the deal fell through. In the meantime, they briefed me on how they would protect my design and my interests. Once you get a speaker made to your specs, you are the only person who can order it.


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## MM54

Sounds expensive, but awesome 

I guess when I get around to building that cab I'll decide about speakers then. Hopefully it won't be too far in the future. Who knows, maybe a B-cab will come up cheap* on CL 

*The only Marshall cabs on there now are up for like $500 in not-so-mint condition. That's silly.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-When are you going to buy four of those Black Mountains? Resonant frequency of 68Hz. Damn! I'll bet four of those would sound sweet with a cranked 50 watt amp. You would have to watch them with a 100 watt amp. They are only rated at 30WRMS, so a 412 would be 120WRMS. You would probably be okay, even if you were almost cranked full blast, but I would ask Eminence first. I'd hate to destroy $1080 worth of speakers.
> 
> Maybe Eminence will give me a couple of them for free, since I plug their products all the time. Did you see this Anthony?



Man I'd love to try em' out! I'd put the Monza to em'. I want to find some kick ass speakers for it anyways. Besides it's plenty loud at 20 watts and won't be blow'n anything.

When you getting some Cannabis Rex? I mean speakers not a baggie! I've read some good reviews on them. Who knows might have to put them on my list too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's HillCountry getting the Cannabis Rex speakers. I've shot a major wad of cash, over 5 grand on speakers and amps. Time to take a little antacid. 

Well get a review from him shortly. I'm still putting two other 412 cabs together.


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## Hillcountry

They were shipped yesterday...so we'll see when they get in. I'll run them through their paces and try to do sound clips or something. I have never done that before...but hey! I'm always looking to learn something new.
-Hillcountry


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## Stymie13

Well, I never got a response to my emails to Eminence. Disappointing, but that's the way it goes sometimes. I'll still support them because every speaker I have purchased from them has performed flawlessly up to this point (and they're right here in the USA). I wasn't able to identify the buzz in my speaker by removing it. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would be able to identify it. In any case, I am now torn between buying a Man O War to pair with a Wizard in my 1-12 or a pair of GB128s to put in an X with the 1258s in my 4-12. The latter would give me an extra 1258 to put in a custom open back combo cab I have currently missing speaker. Decisions, decisions...


----------



## solarburn

Hillcountry said:


> They were shipped yesterday...so we'll see when they get in. I'll run them through their paces and try to do sound clips or something. I have never done that before...but hey! I'm always looking to learn something new.
> -Hillcountry



Yeah I knew you were getting some. I was jus trying to get Marty to spend more money for my benefit hehe...

Look forward to hearing about these.


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## MM54

Stymie13 said:


> Well, I never got a response to my emails to Eminence. Disappointing, but that's the way it goes sometimes. I'll still support them because every speaker I have purchased from them has performed flawlessly up to this point (and they're right here in the USA). I wasn't able to identify the buzz in my speaker by removing it. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable would be able to identify it. In any case, I am now torn between buying a Man O War to pair with a Wizard in my 1-12 or a pair of GB128s to put in an X with the 1258s in my 4-12. The latter would give me an extra 1258 to put in a custom open back combo cab I have currently missing speaker. Decisions, decisions...



I think they might be backed up, it took them a week and a few hours to get back to me a day or two ago.


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## jerryjg

Does Eminence advocate mixing Patriots with Red Coats? I know some guys do not like mixing British voiced with American Voiced speakers. I think there are a couple of models that are kind of crossovers, like the Texas Heat, that might work well this way.
I actually just bought a Canis major Alnico Hempcone, and am wondering what speaker to pair it with in my 2x12 '68 bassman cabinet. My first thought was a Red fang might be perfect compliment..but IDK> Maybe I'd be better off with a American Voiced Swamp Thang till i can get another Alnico- maybe a Black Powder.


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## Hillcountry

In my 72 super reverb I had two Copperheads (patriot) and two Ramrods (Red Coats) and boy did that amp sing. In fact I think that was a recommended dose for that amp. I ended up swapping the Ramrods for two blue frame alnicos because I sold the amp and wanted the Ramrods. I am about to mix the Wizard with the Cannabis Rex...so we'll see how mixin' it up goes.
-Hillcountry


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## MartyStrat54

jerryjg said:


> Does Eminence advocate mixing Patriots with Red Coats? I know some guys do not like mixing British voiced with American Voiced speakers. I think there are a couple of models that are kind of crossovers, like the Texas Heat, that might work well this way.
> I actually just bought a Canis major Alnico Hempcone, and am wondering what speaker to pair it with in my 2x12 '68 bassman cabinet. My first thought was a Red fang might be perfect compliment..but IDK> Maybe I'd be better off with a American Voiced Swamp Thang till i can get another Alnico- maybe a Black Powder.



Let me hear your review on the Cannis Major. I think you mean Black Mountain. That is the killer Alnico that has a free air resonance of 68Hz. The Black Powder is close to it and is a Patriot speaker. I have a cab with two Tonespotters (G12-65's) and two Black Powders. Sounds great.

And yes, a Texas Heat does mix well. A package that is pushed is a Texas Heat and a Governor. I use this and it is a solid pairing.


----------



## jerryjg

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me hear your review on the Cannis Major. I think you mean Black Mountain. That is the killer Alnico that has a free air resonance of 68Hz. The Black Powder is close to it and is a Patriot speaker. I have a cab with two Tonespotters (G12-65's) and two Black Powders. Sounds great.
> 
> And yes, a Texas Heat does mix well. A package that is pushed is a Texas Heat and a Governor. I use this and it is a solid pairing.



yeah, no, not the Black Mtn.; the Canis major is the Alnico version of the Cannibis Rex. It would appear that its the least well known of any of the speakers, or at least the Alnicos, that Emi makes. Not too sure how long its been in production. I found an insane deal on them- PM me if you want to know.. There should be 4 left .


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## MartyStrat54

It's tempting, but I'm more interested in the Black Mountain. That's why I bought the Black Powders.


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## Hillcountry

Eminence Cannabis Rex came today and I loaded them up. Too late to crank though, so I will demo and report tomorrow or Wednesday. They look awesome though: slight green hue to the cones, large dust-cap, and solid construction. I hope they tonally compliment the Wizards well.

I'll update as soon as I can.
-Hillcountry


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## MartyStrat54

If not, you can always smoke them.:cool2::cool2::cool2:


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## 00jett

Ok i'm going to ramble a bit more about my Eminence red & whites again. I had been using them in a blues deville combo and they sounded good, but stiff feeling and just seemed to be breaking in very slowly. I decided to try them out on a couple of arrangements with my marshall dsl 50 head. I am starting to really appreciate this speaker now. IMO its seems to be the perfect speaker for a 1x12 open back cab or combo. Its got a massive low end that fills the room, and a little roll off in the highs so they dont overpower the low end and become ice picky. Personally i prefer it in a 1x12 format or 2x12 mixed with something else over a 2x12 with both of these speakers. (just my opinion) 
This speaker works well with an amp that can can use less highs and more low end (ie alot of combos). Its still a bit stiff feeling, but im hoping that will change the more I use it.


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## MartyStrat54

You nailed it. The R,W & B's have a reputation for taming harsh high end. They are smooth through the mids and highs. This makes it a good speaker to mix with something else. They are high power speakers, so yes, the spider and cone edge are stiff. They will break in.


----------



## mkxxx

Hi - I'm new.

I tried to ask this question on a different thread, and I was kindly advised to ask here.



> mkxxx, I think the question you've asked might be better answered in this thread:
> http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/8492-everything-anything-about-speakers-12.html
> Just pop over there and copy and paste your post into that thread. No need to read all the way through it; Marty can help you out tremendously.



My question is about mixing speakers, notably Celestion Greenbacks and Vintage 30s - for a start. I'd like to have different types of speakers, to get different tones for recording (close-micing single speakers).

The rig in question: Marshall: JMP-1, 9100 MonoBloc 2x50W, 2x 1912 @ 12" Celestion G12B-150 (150W each).

I'm trying to get and record:

* 'speaker breakup'
* 'sag'/'saturation' from the power amp
* more varied Classic Rock and Hard Rock tones (AC/DC, Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, Deep Purple, etc.).

My current speakers aren't too well known or highly regarded. I don't play live. I record a lot at home. I can turn the amp way up.

I've read the whole thread [edit: the previous one, SPEAKER WIRING, not this one!!!], but not understood the implications of all the information. I get the impedance calculations, the wattage is harder for me to follow.

My direct approach would be: buy a 2x12" and put one of each type of speaker in, impedances matching. I know the speakers interact in the cab - is that acoustically, because they share the same box, or is that electrically, because the current goes through two coils? Would they be better wired in series or in parallel (how does that affect the wattage)?
I know their wattages are different. Would I be destroying the Greenback when turning up the amp?
I know the sounds of the above-mentioned bands were most probably recorded from 4x12" cabs, but I just don't need/want that many speakers of the same kind, as I'm only close-micing one speaker.
As I hate to have unused gear lying around, how well would the G12B-150 speakers do with a bass amp? In the current pair of small cabs, or in a single 2x12" bass cab? What else could I do with the current pair of cabs?

Thanx in advance!

ciao,
mkxxx


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got a lot of questions. Let see if I can answer them. If you mix a GB with a Vintage 30, this would be a 25W and 60W speakers. The wattage rating is 25 times 2, or 50 watts. 

For speaker break up, it would be better to go with all 25W GB's. Then you say you can crank the amp up and you should be able to warm the speakers up and once you do, be prepared to record right away. Speakers can cool down really fast. You have to keep the power going to the speakers to warm them up.

Amp sag. Boy that's tough. Your amp is built pretty solid. A cheap amp with a marginal power transformer will cause sag. You would have to play your amp really loud to even get near a sag condition. This might be hard to do. An amp with a tube rectifier will sag when pushed.

I would make sure that the two preamp tubes in the JMP-1 are solid tubes. It is imperative that you use some good tubes. I would recommend a matched Telefunken with a matched high gain Raytheon Black Plate. I would also recommend a 12AX7 in the power amp itself.

The speakers are electrically and acoustically coupled in a cabinet. Wiring depends on what you have. If they are 16 ohm, then you can only wire the two in parallel for an 8 ohm load. If they are 8 ohm, they can be wired in series (add ohms) for 16 ohms or in parallel (reciprocal ohms) for 4 ohms.

I prefer a parallel wiring or a series parallel wiring. With two speakers, you can only wire in series or in parallel. 412 cabs can be wired in series parallel or parallel series, as well as series or parallel. 

As long as both speakers are seeing about 1.25 cubic feet apiece, micing them would be just like a 412 cab. A Marshall 412 cab is a little over five cubic feet in size. If you halve that then your speaker should sound the same. All you can do is try your GB's and V30's together and see how you like it. You may want to load a 212 cab with two GB's to obtain the speaker distortion and break up.

A high wattage guitar speaker doesn't necessarily make a good bass speaker. A lot has to do with cone thickness. Most bass cones are about twice as thick as a guitar cone. The spider (bottom suspension) is stiffer so that the cone doesn't bottom out. You might be able to get by using it with moderate wattage.


----------



## mkxxx

Thanks for the patient in-depth feedback, MartyStrat54!



> You got a lot of questions.



You got a lot of answers ...  Seriously, I'm sorry it's all sort of lumped together (like my ignorance on these issues), but I don't know how to break it down into sensible individual questions.



> If you mix a GB with a Vintage 30, this would be a 25W and 60W speakers. The wattage rating is 25 times 2, or 50 watts.



OK. That was my first mistake - I thought the wattages simply added up. As I'm considering the Heritage Greenbacks, the wattage rating for two would be 40W, wouldn't it? And that both in series and in parallel? I know the Ohms are different ('voltage divider' I think I read here)?



> For speaker break-up, it would be better to go with all 25W GB's. Then you say you can crank the amp up and you should be able to warm the speakers up and once you do, be prepared to record right away. Speakers can cool down really fast. You have to keep the power going to the speakers to warm them up.



OK. 'Warming speakers up' is something nobody has yet told me - very good info, thanks!

I've been intensively researching this whole speaker problem for over a week now, and one contributor (different forum) reckoned that Greenbacks don't sound good, when played to break-up - you don't seem to be of that opinion?

I got into this little 'quest' after reading 'Slipperman's rant' (are you familiar with it?), in which he recommends capturing 'speaker breakup' in recording authentic distorted guitar sound. My speakers are rated at 150W each, so I suppose they won't do much breaking up? Hence the idea to try other speakers.



> Amp sag. Boy that's tough. Your amp is built pretty solid. A cheap amp with a marginal power transformer will cause sag. You would have to play your amp really loud to even get near a sag condition. This might be hard to do. An amp with a tube rectifier will sag when pushed.



Before I got my current Marshall rig at a very good price, I was looking into low wattage amps, expecting to be able to turn them up without needing exceptional amounts of speakers (i.e. 4x12" cabs) to handle the power, and yet still reach the point of 'saturation' and/or 'sag'. The problem is, I've never myself created or consciously heard saturation or sag - so I don't quite know what I'm looking for, I only know that they're desirable aspects of distorted guitar recordings. I don't even know the difference, except for the fact that I know that often it's not preamp distortion that gives a certain tone its edge, instead it's combinations of speaker distortion, power amp distortion, etc. I just want to create and experience these things, in order to get some really nice rhythm guitars recorded for a specific song.

But OK, the current power amp won't easily sag - will it 'saturate' (on the other forum someone recommended 'cooking tubes' - playing loudly to heat up tubes - to get good sound)? 



> I would make sure that the two preamp tubes in the JMP-1 are solid tubes. It is imperative that you use some good tubes. I would recommend a matched Telefunken with a matched high gain Raytheon Black Plate. I would also recommend a 12AX7 in the power amp itself.



OK. I can get that done.



> The speakers are electrically and acoustically coupled in a cabinet. Wiring depends on what you have. If they are 16 ohm, then you can only wire the two in parallel for an 8 ohm load. If they are 8 ohm, they can be wired in series (add ohms) for 16 ohms or in parallel (reciprocal ohms) for 4 ohms.



OK. I could choose to have 16 or 8 Ohm speakers, as I won't buy until I understand what I'm after.



> I prefer a parallel wiring or a series parallel wiring. With two speakers, you can only wire in series or in parallel. 412 cabs can be wired in series parallel or parallel series, as well as series or parallel.



I've read up on that here - and I basically understand the wiring options - it's just that I'm trying to wire all sorts of different wattages, not impedances. Without wanting to sound stubborn, I really want to understand how/why this can/can't work. Could I wire a 4x12" cab with one each of the following speakers: 1x Heritage Greenback, 1x V30, 1x G12H, 1x G12T75, 
and turn up my amp without ruining the lower wattage rated speaker(s)?
Or would the fact that the Greenback is only rated at 20W still mean I'd blow it, once I turn up the amp? Don't the other speakers sort of 'take the punch' for the low-wattage speaker? I suppose that's the basic principle I absolutely don't understand, yet.



> As long as both speakers are seeing about 1.25 cubic feet apiece, micing them would be just like a 412 cab. A Marshall 412 cab is a little over five cubic feet in size. If you halve that then your speaker should sound the same. All you can do is try your GB's and V30's together and see how you like it. You may want to load a 212 cab with two GB's to obtain the speaker distortion and break up.



This is for a 2x12" cab, right? As far as I've understood, one Greenback is rated at too low a wattage to be safely played loudly with my amp, so I'd need at least 2, but even then, they'd be rated far lower than each of my power amps channels, so I'd be safest using 4 Greenbacks for each amp channel. Unless (see above) I could mix two Greenbacks with two other speakers in a 4x12" cab.

One contributor on the other forum (about recording) says about mixing one Greenback with one V30: "The Greenback will start falling apart by the time the V30 starts to sound right." I'm fully prepared to believe that, or is it not that simple?



> A high wattage guitar speaker doesn't necessarily make a good bass speaker. A lot has to do with cone thickness. Most bass cones are about twice as thick as a guitar cone. The spider (bottom suspension) is stiffer so that the cone doesn't bottom out. You might be able to get by using it with moderate wattage.



OK. The question actually stems from research into the Celestion B150, about which there seems to be little info. Someone somewhere speculated that they were originally intended to be bass speakers, hence the 'B' in their name. Do you know more, or where to find reliable info about them?

Thanx in advance for all the patient input.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well first of all, I did some research on the G12B-150. This is from an ad online:

Excellent condition, nicely broken in Celestion G12B-150 Speaker. Built in the UK, handles 150 watts, 8 ohm. Still has original $119 price tag on it. According to Celestion, "the G12B-150 was a catalogue product for a few years but is now only made in small numbers for the Marshall 1912 cab. It’s quite unusual for a Celestion guitar speaker in that it uses a 2” diameter voice coil which gives it that chunky sound." To my (and others') ears it produces the “classic” Marshall tone. Would work very well as a bass speaker too.

I could not find anything else on it. None of Marshall's bass cabs make reference to that speaker. The person above is making a statement that I haven't personally proven. I know a lot of people used two of these in 112 cabs with a small horn for a mini PA system. There just isn't any specs or graphs on this speaker. For bass it is imperative that you follow the Thiele and Small parameters in determining what type and what size of box. Without knowing the type and size of the box, you can ruin a speaker. If I took a bass speaker and put it in an open back cab, it would sound great until it failed. Bass speakers need to be "loaded" into the cab. If not, they will tear themselves apart.

I also came across one of the other forums you posted on. One of the guys told you some wrong info. EVEN IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN STEREO, BOTH CHANNELS ARE GOING TO CABS WITH SERIES, PARALLEL, SERIES-PARALLEL OR PARALLEL SERIES WIRING. Just because you have a left and a right does not mean you can't have these types of wiring. In fact, with your amp, you could be running a 412 with series-parallel wiring on one channel and a 112 on the other channel. 

Now the rule for speaker power is very simple. You take the lowest wattage speaker and multiply it by the number of total drivers. Using your example, a 20 watt GB and a 60 watt V30 is 20 times 2 or 40 watts. Now you need to know this is a RMS rating. Actual program power is twice this, or 80 watts.

Okay, something else is warming up speakers. Just so you know, the guys who play in this style go through a lot of speakers. The voice coil is warmed up and the impedance of the speaker changes. This usually is associated with "speaker cone" distortion. These usually occur at the same time. The speaker is being pushed to the limit electrically and this means maximum cone excursion is occurring. The cone will naturally "fatigue" itself and by doing so, add cone distortion to the signal. As you can see, this is very hard on the speakers. Proceed with caution.

Slipperman's Rant-Yes, I have read some of it. If you take away all of the cussing then it would probably be a very short article. I don't agree with everything he says. He's a little reckless. That's fine if somebody else is buying your speakers.

Amp SAG-I don't know if you knew that most amps have a choke or a sag resistor. In the case of your amp, it is a sag resistor. You are not going to be able to get your amp to sag. At least not very easily. I talked this over with a amp builder and you would have to push that amp really hard to get it to sag. It was designed to deliver clean tube power. Now you said somewhere about using two GB's together and worrying about the power. Well two GB's with your amp will do the job nicely, but it is up to you to determine how much power is enough. You are not going to be able to get cone distortion/warmed voice coils and amp sag all at the same time. Now I have an amp that can achieve this. It is a Marshall DSL 401 with an Eminence Red Fang speaker. If I crank it, the speaker starts to warm up with this 40 watt amp. Its mainly the effect of a warmed up VC and the sag of the amp. However, a 40 watt amp is basically just as loud as a 50 watt amp. They are off by about 1.5dB. Chicken scratch.

I just wanted to let you know that you can get a few of these effects, but not all of them and it is at the risk of damaging your speakers.

SAG-This is when the power transformer starts to starve itself and it is sort of a "brown out" effect. There again, an under rated power transformer is prone to this. The amp is drawing current and the tubes are wanting more, but the PT just can't supply it. This is SAG.

Have you noticed that a lot of the effects you are looking for is in regards to cranking the crap out of an amp?

On speaker impedance? I always try to buy 16 ohm as it is the most flexible. With tube amps, the final impedance does not determine the power output of the amp. So 4, 8, or 16 ohms, the amp will still reach its rated output. So I would go with two 16's for an 8 ohm load. Later, if you want to get a 412 cab, they are almost always 16 ohm speakers and you will have the flexibility of trying different pairs.



> I've read up on that here - and I basically understand the wiring options - it's just that I'm trying to wire all sorts of different wattages, not impedances. Without wanting to sound stubborn, I really want to understand how/why this can/can't work. Could I wire a 4x12" cab with one each of the following speakers: 1x Heritage Greenback, 1x V30, 1x G12H, 1x G12T75,
> and turn up my amp without ruining the lower wattage rated speaker(s)?
> Or would the fact that the Greenback is only rated at 20W still mean I'd blow it, once I turn up the amp? Don't the other speakers sort of 'take the punch' for the low-wattage speaker? I suppose that's the basic principle I absolutely don't understand, yet.



Speakers are pretty dumb, so you have to be smarter than they are. Can you do this? Sure, but there again you have to know the limits. I assume that the Heritage Greenback you are referring to is the G12M at 20 watts? 

Okay, back to the formula. It doesn't matter that the G12T75 is a 75 watt speaker. The formula says, "the lowest wattage speaker (20W) times the total number of drivers." Thus we have 20 times 4 or 80 watts. So this means as a set of speakers the total maximum RMS power is 80 watts. (Again, program power is now 160W.) This would be the same rating as if the 412 cab was loaded with the 20 watt GB's. Now it makes sense.

And the EVH GB is a 20 watt speaker. What they don't tell you is Eddie got his speakers for free. If you use your speakers like Eddie used to, be prepared to start buying replacements. An 80 watt cab up against a 100 watt Marshall is like a tight rope act. It's possible, as long as you know what you are doing. Flat out, that 100 watt head is making about 140 watts. The program power is 160 watts, but this doesn't factor in the sagging amp signal that is heavily distorted. As you can see, there is not much leeway. 



> This is for a 2x12" cab, right? As far as I've understood, one Greenback is rated at too low a wattage to be safely played loudly with my amp, so I'd need at least 2, but even then, they'd be rated far lower than each of my power amps channels, so I'd be safest using 4 Greenbacks for each amp channel. Unless (see above) I could mix two Greenbacks with two other speakers in a 4x12" cab.
> 
> One contributor on the other forum (about recording) says about mixing one Greenback with one V30: "The Greenback will start falling apart by the time the V30 starts to sound right." I'm fully prepared to believe that, or is it not that simple?



Well it applies to all 5 cubic feet 412 cabs and 2.5 cubic feet 212 cabs. The volume that each speaker sees is what we are concerned about. Most guitar applications work well with 1.25 cubic feet per speaker.

As far as the GB's? You are back at the EVH formula again. You have a 50 watt amp that can put out 70 and you have two GB's with a program rating of 80 watts. A lot of this is determined by how loud and how long you intend to play through the speakers. This is highly variable. Could you stand a better chance of getting the warmed VC's with 2 GB's and one side of your amp? Yes. Once you go to a 412 cab of GB's, then it is a safe combo. You now have an 80 watt RMS cab with 160 watts program power.

"The Greenback will start falling apart by the time the V30 starts to sound right." I'm fully prepared to believe that, or is it not that simple?

Not that simple. Some guys could go in the studio and their personal sound is all out of the preamp. They could get their sound with this pairing. Remember, playing at 40 watts in the studio is loud. The guy who told you this is basically stating that the V30 has to be cranked to get "its sound." Is 40 watts enough? I think so. I'm assuming he has probably read some articles and may be reciting something he heard. There is a lot of BS on the Internet. Just because it's on a recording forum doesn't mean it's correct info.


----------



## Hillcountry

Here's an update on that Cannabis Rex. They are loaded into my 4x12 with two Wizards. My first impression is that the cab is insanely loud. It is a little "ice-picky" right now as the CRs are not broken in yet. But they are n excellent compliment to the Wizards. The mids are full...the bottom is huge and the top end is OK right now (will smooth out a bit as they break in).

A full compliment of Eminence speakers makes this cab very tight though. Both pairs have yet to be fully broken in so I plan on cranking two 50 watt amps through it for a while to loosen it up. (it is split into two parallel pairs at 8 ohms each)

I really like them and I am looking forward to breaking them in. They sound great with my JTM45 build and I could feel my shorts move! Sometimes nothing beats a 4x12.

I'll keep woking on them and update as they break in.
-Hillcountry


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah. Good update. As I said, on paper the CR and Wizard were a good match. And yes, Eminence are a little tougher to break in. 

When your pants are moving, you are enjoying the Marshall half stack experience.


----------



## Micky

If it don't pound yer poo-poo, it ain't working.

Nice report on the Rex's. I am looking at those also, but I think I am gonna load the B cab with Swamp Thangs..


----------



## MM54

Are these the valuable older 65's or newer ones, and for the pair is $70 a good deal either way?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Based on the trademark, I would say these are earlier made speakers. I don't think I have heard of a 12N-65. The current Super 65's are part of the Original collection. It has a red, white and black sticker on the back plate.

If they both work good, $70 for the pair is a good price.


----------



## manktelow

I think the G12N-65 are the speakers in the Marshall MC212 extension cabinet.


----------



## mkxxx

Thank you, MartyStrat54, for the serious feedback!



> ...research on the G12B-150 - from an ad online:
> ...
> 'Would work very well as a bass speaker too.'
> I could not find anything else on it. None of Marshall's bass cabs make reference to that speaker. The person above is making a statement that I haven't personally proven.



I understand. I would use them to play bass along with my 10 yr. old son on drums, so I suppose that wouldn't be too loud.



> I know a lot of people used two of these in 112 cabs with a small horn for a mini PA system. There just isn't any specs or graphs on this speaker.



If people used them in PA-type settings, maybe I could use them that way, too - perhaps create some sort of full-range speaker (with horn or similar) for playing my POD as a preamp into my Marshall power amp; one channel POD, one channel JMP-1 would give me the possibility to play the amp with a second guitarist, both in mono. Quite versatile! That might explain why the POD didn't sound so bad when I hooked it up to the rig.



> For bass it is imperative that you follow the Thiele and Small parameters in determining what type and what size of box.



As a former bassist, I fully understand the necessity to have a cab matched to the speakers' specs (I had a 15" EV in a custom-built cab). Can the Thiele and Small parameters be easily acquired by running the speaker thru tests, or do you absolutely need a spec-sheet, to get the precise readings?



> I also came across one of the other forums you posted on. One of the guys told you some wrong info ...



Yes, I was becoming confused by so much (sometimes conflicting) information. To date, that's the forum I first inquired on. I came here, to see if I could crosscheck, finding more consistent and thorough info, specifically from amp/speaker-specialists.



> Now the rule for speaker power is very simple. You take the lowest wattage speaker and multiply it by the number of total drivers. Using your example, a 20 watt GB and a 60 watt V30 is 20 times 2 or 40 watts. Now you need to know this is a RMS rating. Actual program power is twice this, or 80 watts.



I understand. Watts are't simply added. I'll remember that.
RMS is the 'pink-noise-for-ten-minues' capability, isn't it? So you confirm that I can run up to double the wattage of the RMS rating of the speaker with the lowest power-rating in the cab, correct?



> Okay, something else is warming up speakers. Just so you know, the guys who play in this style go through a lot of speakers.
> ...
> As you can see, this is very hard on the speakers. Proceed with caution.



OK, thanks for the words of warning! I might not be ready to keep changing speakers like guitar strings.



> Slipperman's Rant-Yes, I have read some of it. If you take away all of the cussing then it would probably be a very short article. I don't agree with everything he says.



I even listened to his audio files, in which he carries on ranting, but also explaining things he considers important. I'm a critical reader/listener. I don't believe something until I find it plausible enough, or I fully trust the teller (going by how competent they come across). I see his tirade in more perspective, the more info I glean from the answers I get from quality forum-info (like yours).



> Amp SAG-I don't know if you knew that most amps have a choke or a sag resistor. In the case of your amp, it is a sag resistor. You are not going to be able to get your amp to sag. At least not very easily.



OK. Little chance of sag. I don't even know if I need it. I would have liked to hear it and see if that was a sound worth recording (a part of the sound of 'good' distorted guitar tone).
I had no idea about chokes/sag resistors.



> It [ed.: 9100 MonoBloc] was designed to deliver clean tube power.



Is that good? Is there any element of 'power tube distortion' to be obtained from it? Is 'saturation' the same as 'power tube distortion'?
Could I use the power amp as a hifi tube amp (seriously!)? I haven't been able to find any specs or graphs on the 9100, despite downloading the terse users manual.
Being a complete beginner with tube amps, I was under the impression that you simply turn up a quality tube amp, and they sound superior, epecially to solid state amps.



> Now you said somewhere about using two GB's together and worrying about the power. Well two GB's with your amp will do the job nicely, but it is up to you to determine how much power is enough.



The GB's are supposedly what Angus Young uses. He is said to use little preamp distortion. I love AC/DCs sound. Just to confirm: if I had a 2x12" cab with two Heritage Greenbacks, would I get a tone in Angus' direction (of course I don't play like him, and my amp is completely different, etc.), simply by turning that channel of the 9100 about half way up with little preamp gain? And I would't be delivering too much power on that channel to those two speakers? (You seem to be confirming that assumption further on in your reply)



> You are not going to be able to get cone distortion/warmed voice coils and amp sag all at the same time.



OK. No simultaneous sag and cone distortion. 



> Now I have an amp that can achieve this. It is a Marshall DSL 401 with an Eminence Red Fang speaker.



Did it originally have a Celestion Goldback? Didn't that sound good enough?



> If I crank it, the speaker starts to warm up with this 40 watt amp. Its mainly the effect of a warmed up VC and the sag of the amp.



This sounds like an amp I could buy instead of fruitlessly going through all these speaker options, only to find out I need lots of them because my power amp is too powerful ...



> However, a 40 watt amp is basically just as loud as a 50 watt amp. They are off by about 1.5dB. Chicken scratch.



Yep, that's a principle I've understood. Something like: 100W is only double the dB over 10W. I'm not looking for volume (I don't/won't play live, and if I did there'd be a PA, or my 150W speakers would do the job for the guitar). I just thought I'd need massive volume to get sag, saturation and cone distortion - all of which seem to be part of 'legendary' guitar tones. I sort of feel I've come full circle. I've learnt a lot. My amp seems overdimensioned for the task, especially as I'd originally hoped to be able to stick to 1x12" cabs.
How important are _sag_, _saturation_ and _cone distortion_ for my recordings (see far above, for example AC/DC's attack, Judas Priest's chugging)? I just supposed all the legendary guitarist's sounds had elements of all three, plus of course their unique playing styles and so on.



> I just wanted to let you know that you can get a few of these effects, but not all of them and it is at the risk of damaging your speakers.



Fully appreciate the warning!



> SAG-This is when the power transformer starts to starve itself and it is sort of a "brown out" effect.



I once read that sag was more tangible than audible when playing guitar. I just wished I could create it and see if I needed/wanted it.



> Have you noticed that a lot of the effects you are looking for is in regards to cranking the crap out of an amp?



Now you put it so plainly, yes! And one funny thing is that I did some recordings right after reading Slipperman's rant, that were ultra low/living room volume and very low gain. They sounded quite good, especially the attack, which had previously been lost in too much pre-gain. I merely had to normalize the recorded clips and used some multi-band compression. The guitars suddenly sounded like guitars instead of sounding like distortion.
When I have time, I will be turning up the amp for recording (hoping for desirable power amp distortion), yet still leaving the gain very low (only 5 or 6 on the OD1 channel), just to see if I like that even better. I'll also be looking into the recommended mic-preamps for my SM58.



> ... I always try to buy 16 ohm as it is the most flexible.
> ...
> Later, if you want to get a 412 cab, they are almost always 16 ohm speakers and you will have the flexibility of trying different pairs.



OK. Good advice, thanks. I was thinking about 16 Ohms, too. I read somewhere on this forum, that some people think that 16 Ohms sound more rich due to some interaction with the output transformers/taps, so just in case that were true, that's a further reason why I'd planned to go 16 Ohms.



> _[Quote mkxxx]:
> ... I'm trying to wire all sorts of different wattages, not impedances. Without wanting to sound stubborn, I really want to understand how/why this can/can't work. Could I wire a 4x12" cab with one each of the following speakers: 1x Heritage Greenback, 1x V30, 1x G12H, 1x G12T75,
> and turn up my amp without ruining the lower wattage rated speaker(s)?
> Or would the fact that the Greenback is only rated at 20W still mean I'd blow it, once I turn up the amp? Don't the other speakers sort of 'take the punch' for the low-wattage speaker? I suppose that's the basic principle I absolutely don't understand, yet.[/Quote mkxxx]_
> Speakers are pretty dumb, so you have to be smarter than they are. Can you do this? Sure, but there again you have to know the limits. I assume that the Heritage Greenback you are referring to is the G12M at 20 watts?



Correct, 20W.



> Okay, back to the formula. It doesn't matter that the G12T75 is a 75 watt speaker. The formula says, "the lowest wattage speaker (20W) times the total number of drivers." Thus we have 20 times 4 or 80 watts. So this means as a set of speakers the total maximum RMS power is 80 watts. (Again, program power is now 160W.) This would be the same rating as if the 412 cab was loaded with the 20 watt GB's. Now it makes sense.



So the power in this combination of 4 different speakers would be OK, depending on how loudly I play it. Would the sound of the cab be so off-balance that even close-miced, the speakers would not sound their possible best, as in a cab full only of the same type?



> And the EVH GB is a 20 watt speaker. What they don't tell you is Eddie got his speakers for free. If you use your speakers like Eddie used to, be prepared to start buying replacements. An 80 watt cab up against a 100 watt Marshall is like a tight rope act. It's possible, as long as you know what you are doing. Flat out, that 100 watt head is making about 140 watts. The program power is 160 watts, but this doesn't factor in the sagging amp signal that is heavily distorted. As you can see, there is not much leeway.



Actually, you lost me there ... you're not talking about my amp now, this is EVH's amp, isn't it? I know famous musician can get endorsement deals and such ... so EVH can most probably thrash equipment with abandon.
I'd be running one 4x12" cab on one 50W channel, wouldn't I? Or have I been wrongly assuming that you *don't* connect a single 4x12" cab to both amp channels at the same time?
I'm beginning to regard my power amp as 2 seperate 50W amps (that's the MonoBloc principle, isn't it?). I only need to run one channel to record.




> There is a lot of BS on the Internet. Just because it's on a recording forum doesn't mean it's correct info.



I fully agree! That's why I'm meticulously cross-checking. If my father didn't have dementia, I'd be able to ask him all this, as he was an electro-technical engineer, initially trained in the days of tubes. 
I won't proceed to buy anything until I'm convinced I understand what I'm doing. You're patiently getting me there!

To sum up what I think I've learnt regarding my 'quest for tone':


 a 4x12" cab with 4 different speaker types can handle the power of one 50W channel on my 9100 - but god knows what such a cab would sound like (there must be a reason they're not usually made).
a 2x12" cab with 2x 20W Heritage Greenbacks can handle the power if I don't crank the amp to 'Kingdom Come'
a 2x12" cab with 1x V30 and 1x 20W Heritage Greenback can handle the power (see above) - unknown what it would sound like, and the V30 might not get enough power to sound right before endangering the Greenback
I only need cabs that can handle one channel of 50W. (You state that actually the amp can put out something like 70W per channel).
For sag, saturation, and speaker breakup, I might need to consider using a different rig


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm going to try and keep this fairly short.



> I know a lot of people used two of these in 112 cabs with a small horn for a mini PA system. There just isn't any specs or graphs on this speaker.
> If people used them in PA-type settings, maybe I could use them that way, too.



I would say that if you has these in a two cubic feet ported cabinet (say tuned to 50Hz) and crossing over at say 4KHz in to a horn. This would be a dandy mini PA.



> As a former bassist, I fully understand the necessity to have a cab matched to the speakers' specs (I had a 15" EV in a custom-built cab). Can the Thiele and Small parameters be easily acquired by running the speaker thru tests, or do you absolutely need a spec-sheet, to get the precise readings?



Yes, you really need the spec's from the factory. Celestion has always been pretty tight on speaker spec's. If you can find the T and S parameters, I have several software programs for calculating size and type of box.



> I understand. Watts are't simply added. I'll remember that.
> RMS is the 'pink-noise-for-ten-minues' capability, isn't it? So you confirm that I can run up to double the wattage of the RMS rating of the speaker with the lowest power-rating in the cab, correct?



No. RMS is the actual power the speaker can take continuously. Not just for 10 minutes. Program power is double this. If you could see inside of your speaker, you could monitor the voice coil. Under certain power and signal conditions, the VC could actually start to glow. If it went like this too long, the windings would come off of the VC, or a wire would melt in half. Generally, RMS testing is done with a set frequency, not pink noise.



> OK. Little chance of sag. I don't even know if I need it. I would have liked to hear it and see if that was a sound worth recording (a part of the sound of 'good' distorted guitar tone).
> I had no idea about chokes/sag resistors.



Here again I think you need a little 5 to 20 watt amp. I would go with like a 10 watt. You will be able to turn the amp up and get it to sag. An amp with a choke will sag smoother (tighter) than an amp with a sag resistor.



> Is that good? Is there any element of 'power tube distortion' to be obtained from it? Is 'saturation' the same as 'power tube distortion'?
> Could I use the power amp as a hifi tube amp (seriously!)?



All amps will distort if driven hard. This is especially easy to do. You just overload the preamp signal above and beyond what it is rated for. Yes, you could run that as a stereo amp. I almost bought a 9200 for that very purpose. You would use less gain on the setting and this would mean the power section would be running as clean as possible. If you keep the distortion down below 1.5THD, that would be acceptable.



> The GB's are supposedly what Angus Young uses. He is said to use little preamp distortion. I love AC/DCs sound. Just to confirm: if I had a 2x12" cab with two Heritage Greenbacks, would I get a tone in Angus' direction (of course I don't play like him, and my amp is completely different, etc.), simply by turning that channel of the 9100 about half way up with little preamp gain? And I would't be delivering too much power on that channel to those two speakers?



Angus is like a lot of rock guitarists, he used a 1959 cranked real loud into speakers that have a program rating just above the max power of the amp. As I said before, four GB's are 80 WRMS and 160 Program Power. The amp can go to around 140 watts. Keep in mind that if he is warming up the speakers, he has to play awhile for them to heat up. However, as soon as he stops playing, the speakers quickly cool down. The magnet (motor) structure of the speaker is like a huge heat sink. So Angus plays his speakers on the edge and it does add to his live sound. Studio? That's a lot different. You want things to be consistent, so that counts out intermittent heated VC's.



> Did it originally have a Celestion Goldback? Didn't that sound good enough?



Yes it did. I'm not that crazy about that speaker. The Red Fang is a very close match to the output of this amp. I like it better.



> This sounds like an amp I could buy instead of fruitlessly going through all these speaker options, only to find out I need lots of them because my power amp is too powerful



Again, get a 10 watt amp. Try to find an old mono HiFi amp and have a tech build you a slave power amp. Them you can use the JMP-1 to drive it.



> Yep, that's a principle I've understood. Something like: 100W is only double the dB over 10W.



Not exactly. 100W is 3dB louder than 50W. A 10dB increase is perceived as twice as loud. Without efficiency, you can run out of power quickly.



> So the power in this combination of 4 different speakers would be OK, depending on how loudly I play it. Would the sound of the cab be so off-balance that even close-miced, the speakers would not sound their possible best, as in a cab full only of the same type?



I have no idea what four different speakers are going to sound like. I would have to look at each speakers tech data sheets and the frequency graph of each speaker and then I still wouldn't have a clue until I listened to them live.



> Actually, you lost me there ... you're not talking about my amp now, this is EVH's amp, isn't it? I know famous musician can get endorsement deals and such ... so EVH can most probably thrash equipment with abandon.
> I'd be running one 4x12" cab on one 50W channel, wouldn't I? Or have I been wrongly assuming that you don't connect a single 4x12" cab to both amp channels at the same time?
> I'm beginning to regard my power amp as 2 seperate 50W amps (that's the MonoBloc principle, isn't it?). I only need to run one channel to record.



Well actually I was talking about Eddie's SIG speaker. It is basically the same as a GB. What they actually did to make it the EVH model, I don't know. I go by the fact that it is a 20 watt speaker. Yes Eddie could trash his speakers and they would be replaced. 

A guitar cab with a switchable load has a stereo setup. If you have 16 ohm speakers in the cab and you switch it to stereo, you can run one half of your amp on one side of the cab (8 ohm) and run the other half of your amp on the other side (8 ohm).

Yes, you have two independent 50 watt amps. You can run one or both channels at the same time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Moving this info up as it makes for good reference.

Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75.
Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
Greenback is Private Jack.
Alnico Blue is Red Fang.
G12-65 is Tonespotter.
G12H30 is the Wizard.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> Moving this info up as it makes for good reference.
> 
> Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75.
> Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
> Greenback is Private Jack.
> Alnico Blue is Red Fang.
> G12-65 is Tonespotter.
> G12H30 is the Wizard.


 Hey Marty - Do you have a complete list of Eminence references like this?
How about equivalents for these:
Cannabis Rex
Swamp Thang
Texas Heat
Truvox Series


----------



## MartyStrat54

I will contact Anthony Lucas on Monday and see if they have any other references. I think the Patriot Series is all of their stuff, "but" it also could be clones of Jensen or EV. I do know that the Commonwealth is a stab at a JBL E Series. If you like a Peavey Black Widow or JBL E-120, the Commonwealth is a good replacement. Heavy too.


----------



## mkxxx

Thanx, MartyStrat54!


> I would say that if you has these in a two cubic feet ported cabinet (say tuned to 50Hz) and crossing over at say 4KHz in to a horn. This would be a dandy mini PA.


I'd love to try that.



> If you can find the T and S parameters, I have several software programs for calculating size and type of box.



OK – but I suppose I won't find any specs. If I do, I'll come back to it.



> No. RMS is the actual power the speaker can take continuously.
> …
> Generally, RMS testing is done with a set frequency, not pink noise.


OK. I was just quoting something from Wikipedia - I was trying to find out at least something, not wanting you to have to tell every single detail … sorry;-)



> Here again I think you need a little 5 to 20 watt amp. I would go with like a 10 watt. You will be able to turn the amp up and get it to sag. An amp with a choke will sag smoother (tighter) than an amp with a sag resistor.


Any susggestions on a 10W amp (besides below)?



> Yes, you could run that as a stereo amp. I almost bought a 9200 for that very purpose. You would use less gain on the setting and this would mean the power section would be running as clean as possible. If you keep the distortion down below 1.5THD, that would be acceptable.


I might try that. My hifi stereo amp doesn't work well anymore.



> Angus is like a lot of rock guitarists, he used a 1959 cranked real loud into speakers that have a program rating just above the max power of the amp. As I said before, four GB's are 80 WRMS and 160 Program Power. The amp can go to around 140 watts. Keep in mind that if he is warming up the speakers, he has to play awhile for them to heat up. However, as soon as he stops playing, the speakers quickly cool down. The magnet (motor) structure of the speaker is like a huge heat sink. So Angus plays his speakers on the edge and it does add to his live sound. Studio? That's a lot different. You want things to be consistent, so that counts out intermittent heated VC's.


OK. Driving Greenbacks at their limit is too hot for me right now. If I experiment with GB's, then either later, or below their limits.
Does Angus then perhaps not record with much speaker-breakup?



> The Red Fang is a very close match to the output of this amp.


Would you recommend I looked more into Eminence speakers, as they perhaps have models that take more power, but also sound better than the 150W speakers I currently have?



> Again, get a 10 watt amp. Try to find an old mono HiFi amp and have a tech build you a slave power amp. Them you can use the JMP-1 to drive it.


My father-in-law has an old unused tube radio, could that be worth checking as an old mono hifi amp, or are such radios normally just old, yet not hifi? I was originally thinking of getting a tech to make a blues-harp amp out of it.



> I have no idea what four different speakers are going to sound like. I would have to look at each speakers tech data sheets and the frequency graph of each speaker and then I still wouldn't have a clue until I listened to them live.


Should I ever do it, I'll let you know …

Thanks for the patience and valuable information!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are looking over this thread, feel free to post any comments about what kind of speakers you like or the types of cabs you use. I always like to hear about what everyone is using.


----------



## mkxxx

Dear MartyStrat54,

I seem to have actually acquired the T&S parameters for those Celestion G12B-150's:

D - 0.26m
Re - 6.4ohm
Fs - 79Hz
Qms - 10.504
Qts - 0.572
Qes - 0.605
Mmt - 27.4g
Cms - 0.12mm/N
Vas - 43litres
Bl - 13.46Tm
Rms - 1.62kg/s

I also got a spec-sheet, here's an excerpt:

Sensitivity - 98 dB
Chassis - pressed steel
Voice coil - round copper
magnet - ceramic, weight 50 oz
frequency range - 60 to 4000 Hz
resonance frequ., Fs - 77 Hz
DC resistance, Re - 7 Ohms


*1) I'd like to come back to your offer for calculating a PA-type cab for them - is that one speaker per cab?
2) do the specs confirm they could be bass speakers (frequency range, etc.)?*

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Based on the T and S parameters given, my software calculates how each parameter coincides with the others. In this case, the software stated there were errors in some of the parameters. This is notated by red and yellow lights beside the parameters. Good is green.

On of the critical parameters was free resonance. This was stated differently in two areas. One was 77 and the other was 79Hz. My software computed it to be 87Hz.

The internal volume of the box is 29 liters. It would need to be ported at 99.75Hz. 

I didn't go any further, because my conclusion is that this wouldn't really make a real bottom end type of PA speaker. This is more of an upper mid bass unit.
People were probably using them in their factory open back cab for vocals and that would probably work. You wouldn't want to mix in any lower octave instruments as you would tear the speaker up.


----------



## mkxxx

Dear MartyStrat54,

thanks for the effort! OK, so no bass speaker.

I too noticed that some of the T-S-parameters given in the text-body of the mail slightly differed from the values in the pdf-spec sheet. But being a complete layman, I didn't know it was of key importance.

Thanx!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah a real work horse of a speaker is the Eminence Delta Pro. This is one beefy speaker and it is warmer on the top end as it rolls off at about 4.7KHz. The beauty of this speaker is that it will handle guitar, bass and PA. You can put this in a box tuned to 50 Hz and it will go down to Low E (42Hz). The other thing is it is rated at 300WRMS or 600W Program Power. 

One hell of a speaker.


----------



## el zilcho

You guys ever run just one side of a stereo 4x12?

You get twice the enclosure volume and two shitty passive radiators.


----------



## Hillcountry

Here's an update on the Cannabis Rex speakers.

I have about 10 hours on them...they are still tight, but I expected that. I am starting to see what the "smoky" explanation is. I don't know if it is a slightly muted top end, or what. Frankly I don't know how to explain it. As much as Greenbacks are referred to as "woody" I see why hemp cone speakers are referred to as "smoky." I figured it was hype-but there is a different tone in the upper mids. 

Here's how I would place them...
My Vintage 30's have a sizzle or "krang" on the top end which is great for leads.

The Wizards have a "Bark" to them in the upper mids which hits you hard.

The Legend GB128 has a nice full sound without too much an emphasis on the bass, but a good strong mid-range and nice top end.

The Cannabis Rex adds a smooth lower-middle midrange that is present but not "spikey." And the lows are full

I think that as the CR breaks in more it will be a really smooth, loud speaker. I like it a lot.

I'll update as things change. So far-it is an excellent compliment for the Wizards.


----------



## thetragichero

i have an 8412 cabinet (came with the dsl) that sometimes lets out a buzz
could this be a bad speaker or...?
should i look into replacement speakers? (almost 100% sure they're original, since the guy i bought that half stack from had the original marshall-branded 12ax7s from 1997 still in the head...)
what would you suggest for punk/alt rock with a dsl and strats (maybe something that isn't so bright?)
i don't know a damn thing about speakers, so any suggestions are welcome


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## MartyStrat54

el zilcho said:


> You guys ever run just one side of a stereo 4x12?
> 
> You get twice the enclosure volume and two shitty passive radiators.



That's what always puzzled me about most Marshall 412 cabs that can run stereo. You are running different or slightly different signals, the speakers are fighting against each other in the same air space. Now some cabs are designed to keep each pair of speakers sealed off from each other, or each speaker is in its own enclosure. This is the way you should do it.


----------



## javier pintos

Check this out sounds reasonable, for soem reason now i eant lower efficient speakers rather than 100 db ones 

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound


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## Micky

Flux Density Modulation? Sounds like something outta Back to the Future...

Must be relatively new, can't find much more info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It is new. These are available in both a Patriot and Red Coat Series. They are just now being shipped out to the retailers. I'm waiting on Parts Express to start stocking them.

Here is the Patriot Maverick.






And the info.

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound


----------



## javier pintos

anyhow it seems it will be more reasonable to have an open back cab in order to make on the fly adjustments other than that having a closed cab might make it not as easy unless one is looking into getting it adjusting to taste and then leave it like that, another nice feature would be to have a motorized adjustment and have them power by 2 9V batteries that can be placed with the control on the outside of the cab, sort of liek making an active speaker ajajjaa


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## javier pintos

if my math is ok having it set for the 91.5 db and powered by a 100 w amp it would be as loud as having a 100 db speaker powered by a 15 watt amp, wich is still loud i guess for in room practice with a 4x12 packed with this speakers, the wife and kids would still be pissed, but makes sense on "small" places gigs, and if you get a larger place gig you just adjust the sensitivity with the powered control outside the cab

Marty do you know if they will offer this on other speakers or just the maverick and the reignmaker?

what do this 2 speakers compare toto on the celestion line if they can be compared?


----------



## Micky

I would live to have these in a 1X12 or 2X12 combo... something in the 30-50 watt range.

God I wish I had my Fender Twin back...

Anyway these are about $200 each aren't they?


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is a follow up on something I promised to do. Here is a letter from Anthony Lucas of Eminence.

Hi Marty,

I guess the Commonwealth 12 and 15 are the only other ones that I didn't mention. We tried emulate the JBL D120 and D130 sound with those. I don't think they sound real similar to the originals, but they have a lot of the same characteristics. I suppose you could call the Legend GB128 a cleaner, fatter, warmer Greenback tone, and the Legend V128 a more mellow, bluesy Vintage 30 tone. Oh.....the Lynch Super V12 was a match to an old Fane, but I do not recall the model.

The Tonker and Tonkerlite are original Eminence designs. I hear a lot of people say that they remind them of old Hiwatts/Fanes, but that was not our intention.

Actually, the Maverick is not out yet. We start production next week on the FDMs. They will go for $189.99 through an Eminence dealer.

We greatly appreciate your hard work and support for Eminence on the forums. 


Regards,

Anthony Lucas


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## MartyStrat54

javier pintos said:


> Marty do you know if they will offer this on other speakers or just the maverick and the reignmaker?
> 
> what do this 2 speakers compare to on the Celestion line if they can be compared?



These are very unique speakers in that the parameters of the speaker change as you adjust the knob. And it would be a real pain in the ass if they were made for a sealed back. Although I looked at the Thiele and Small parameters and in one setting it could be in a sealed box, but in the other extreme it is for an open back. 

These speakers vary in how they sound. You should see the frequency graph on this thing. Holy Cow! They had to do it in color. That being said, no these do not sound like any particular Celestion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> I would live to have these in a 1X12 or 2X12 combo... something in the 30-50 watt range.
> 
> God I wish I had my Fender Twin back...
> 
> Anyway these are about $200 each aren't they?



They are just now starting production and as Anthony stated, they will retail for around $190.

Yeah a pair of these in a Twin might sound really good. The main thing is the ability to knock 9dB off of the total volume.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anybody shopping around for some speakers? If you do buy some, post it hear with your review. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Been doing an A/B test on the 412 cabs. The one with the Texas Heat and Governor's sound really good. I'm playing my new (2001) Fat Strat through it and the humbucker and ash body work out well for this combo of speakers. I still would like to crank a 50 watt head through a 412 cab loaded with Black Mountains. Yessir, that would be nice.


----------



## Hillcountry

OK...so I was bored (and I had an idea-dangerous!) the other day and built myself a 2x10/2x12 cab. It is 28x28x12 and I have two Eminence Ramrods on top, and the two Legend GB128s on the bottom. This might be the best sounding cab I have heard in a while. The 12s have thump, and the 10's have punch. I really like how it sounds with my JTM45 clone. 

It does not quite have the hugeness of the 4x12...but it is more like a Bassman on steroids. Plus...it is lighter than the 4x12. 

Now I just have another cab to store...but at least my speakers aren't floating around anymore! 
-Hillcountry


----------



## thetragichero

javier pintos said:


> another nice feature would be to have a motorized adjustment and have them power by 2 9V batteries that can be placed with the control on the outside of the cab, sort of liek making an active speaker ajajjaa



make this footswitchable and i'm sold


----------



## 00jett

> OK...so I was bored (and I had an idea-dangerous!) the other day and built myself a 2x10/2x12 cab. It is 28x28x12 and I have two Eminence Ramrods on top, and the two Legend GB128s on the bottom. This might be the best sounding cab I have heard in a while. The 12s have thump, and the 10's have punch. I really like how it sounds with my JTM45 clone.
> 
> It does not quite have the hugeness of the 4x12...but it is more like a Bassman on steroids. Plus...it is lighter than the 4x12.



I bet that would sound cool in an X Pattern as well. Both a 10 & 12 on the top and bottem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> OK...so I was bored (and I had an idea-dangerous!) the other day and built myself a 2x10/2x12 cab. It is 28x28x12 and I have two Eminence Ramrods on top, and the two Legend GB128s on the bottom. This might be the best sounding cab I have heard in a while. The 12s have thump, and the 10's have punch. I really like how it sounds with my JTM45 clone.
> 
> It does not quite have the hugeness of the 4x12...but it is more like a Bassman on steroids. Plus...it is lighter than the 4x12.
> 
> Now I just have another cab to store...but at least my speakers aren't floating around anymore!
> -Hillcountry



Nice to hear this. Sounds sweet. Those Ramrods are pretty punchy and full sounding. If you read my post from Anthony of Eminence, he said the GB128's have a cleaner, fatter, warmer Greenback tone. That's a damn good speaker for the money. I'm using two in a combo and I have two that are new in the box.

Once again, thank you for sharing your cab build.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> Hey Marty - Do you have a complete list of Eminence references like this?
> How about equivalents for these:
> Cannabis Rex
> Swamp Thang
> Texas Heat
> Truvox Series



Micky-I wrote Anthony and his response is in Post #381. Sorry, but there isn't any specific speakers that the Patriots are cloned after, except for the Commonwealth (JBL's). Not to say that one of those speakers might sound like some old American speaker. It's a crap shoot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> make this footswitchable and i'm sold



What if it serves cold beer as well?


----------



## dugger

What are the consequences of mixing different wattage speakers in one cab, if any ?
Say...
4x12 cab,
Two sets wired to their own seperate jacks,
Parallel outs on amp to each set,
1st set 180watts
2nd set 150watts


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> Micky-I wrote Anthony and his response is in Post #381. Sorry, but there isn't any specific speakers that the Patriots are cloned after, except for the Commonwealth (JBL's). Not to say that one of those speakers might sound like some old American speaker. It's a crap shoot.


 No sweat Marty - I was just doing final research as to what I wanted to fill my bottom 4X12 cab with. This thread has been great, I cannot compliment you and the others here enough. This data you have collected is unparalleled.

Swamp Thangs should be here on Tuesday, I should have the cab wired and working by next Saturday.

Problem is - July is vacation month for me and we already have a bunch of short trips planned. Probably head out to the Finger Lake region this week sometime. I wanna stop by the Corning Glass factory to make a hand-made guitar slide, if it is at all possible.

So the Thangs may need to wait depending on when we go. I think they will be the perfect compliment to the Texas Heat in the top.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Enjoy your vacation, Micky. Hope all goes well.


----------



## Micky

Did I mention my son and I just built a sub with an Eminence Omega Pro 18C?


----------



## javier pintos

thetragichero said:


> make this footswitchable and i'm sold


 
hey i was even thinking on having a guitar onboard speaker volume pot wireless or something hahaha


----------



## javier pintos

MartyStrat54 said:


> What if it serves cold beer as well?


 
i´m more into some wiskey this days to let go the beer belly a bit


----------



## MartyStrat54

dugger said:


> What are the consequences of mixing different wattage speakers in one cab, if any ?
> Say...
> 4x12 cab,
> Two sets wired to their own seperate jacks,
> Parallel outs on amp to each set,
> 1st set 180watts
> 2nd set 150watts



Dugger, you would be safe with either a 50 or 100 watt tube amp.Would you be running separate amps, or would you be hooking them up to the same amp?

As long as you have the output impedance of the amp set for the load, then you are good to go.

In this case it sound like it would be a 8 ohm by 8 ohm load. The amp wound need to be set for four ohms. If two separate amps are use then they would be 8 ohms per amp.


----------



## thetragichero

MartyStrat54 said:


> What if it serves cold beer as well?



then i will go against everything i believe in an put a ring/diamond on it!


----------



## thetragichero

in all seriousness, this was either overlooked or i didn't see the reply:



thetragichero said:


> i have an 8412 cabinet (came with the dsl) that sometimes lets out a buzz
> could this be a bad speaker or...?
> should i look into replacement speakers? (almost 100% sure they're original, since the guy i bought that half stack from had the original marshall-branded 12ax7s from 1997 still in the head...)
> what would you suggest for punk/alt rock with a dsl and strats (maybe something that isn't so bright?)
> i don't know a damn thing about speakers, so any suggestions are welcome


----------



## dugger

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dugger, you would be safe with either a 50 or 100 watt tube amp.Would you be running separate amps, or would you be hooking them up to the same amp?
> 
> As long as you have the output impedance of the amp set for the load, then you are good to go.
> 
> In this case it sound like it would be a 8 ohm by 8 ohm load. The amp wound need to be set for four ohms. If two separate amps are use then they would be 8 ohms per amp.



Yeah same amp ,just using the parallel outs to two sets (imp is correct btw)
Probably dumb question, but now I know...
Thanks Mart Man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> i have an 8412 cabinet (came with the dsl) that sometimes lets out a buzz
> could this be a bad speaker or...?
> should i look into replacement speakers? (almost 100% sure they're original, since the guy i bought that half stack from had the original marshall-branded 12ax7s from 1997 still in the head...)
> what would you suggest for punk/alt rock with a dsl and strats (maybe something that isn't so bright?)
> i don't know a damn thing about speakers, so any suggestions are welcome



Yep it got overlooked, by me anyways. A "buzz" could be several things. It could be a loose speaker, something loose on the baffle or back panel, the hardware (handles), or it could be the speaker itself.

Whenever I buy a used cab, I go through it. You would be surprised how may screws are loose (and not in my head). For example, the 1960A I bought the speakers were all loose, the baffle board was loose and one of the handles had come apart. How do you think that would sound at stage level. The guy who sold it to me probably thought there was something wrong with it. I went through it and it was solid. I did however sell the G12T-75's and I put some Eminence Tonespotters and Black Powders in it. Awesome baby!

The only thing you can do is manually check both speakers. I have a signal generator and this works wonders on finding a speaker/cab noise. You can dial in the exact frequency of the problem and then isolate it. (Signal generators are a must for breaking in speakers as well.)

Then you can inspect the cab and tighten everything up. I have found broken screws in cabinets and you should put a new screw in next to the broken one.

If you are going to replace your speakers, the Eminence Red, White and Blues is a great way to go. It has a very smooth upper end. This is the speaker I recommend if you are wanting to eliminate brightness or harshness.

Now I am using the Black Powders and they are listed by Eminence as being a great Grunge speaker. This speaker does have more top end than the Red, White and Blues.


----------



## thetragichero

oooh guess i'll open her up when i get home then


----------



## thetragichero

every screw tightened and the upper right still buzzes (i was correct... still has the stock celestion g12l speakers in it)
guess i'll have to pick up two red white and blues, and eventually two black powders


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, that would probably sound as good as my combo of the Tonespotters and Black Powders. Those Red, White and Blues can take a lot of power, 120 watts RMS. Of course with the Black Powders, total cab wattage would be:

75 times 4 = 300 watts RMS. Not shabby. This is the same wattage as G12T-75's, but a much better sound.

I really think you will like the Red, White and Blues.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anybody try the Eminence Screaming Eagle? It is an extended frequency speaker with a range of 65 to 5.5KHz. Listed as great for a club speaker for American Blues and Rock.


----------



## Micky

I notice Eminence has the Reignmaker listed now!


----------



## 00jett

I see the Maxerick and Reignmker have identical frequency charts on the eminence site. They dont give us much yet to show the tonal differences between the speakers. I love to try and openback 2x12 with one of each!


----------



## Micky

From what I can gather, the Patriot series is 'American' voiced speakers, while the Red Coat series is 'Brittish' voiced. What that actually means is probably great material for yet another thread about Eminence speakers, and I am sure Marty or others that follow this thread can elaborate on this much better than I can.

Personally I have tried both and I prefer the Patriot series, they seem to have a tighter low end, but that is a subjective opinion, YMMV.

Here is a link to the Eminence Tone Guide:

http://eminence.com/pdf/tone_guide.pdf


----------



## thetragichero

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, that would probably sound as good as my combo of the Tonespotters and Black Powders. Those Red, White and Blues can take a lot of power, 120 watts RMS. Of course with the Black Powders, total cab wattage would be:
> 
> 75 times 4 = 300 watts RMS. Not shabby. This is the same wattage as G12T-75's, but a much better sound.
> 
> I really think you will like the Red, White and Blues.



i'm hoping i'll like them!
i'll probably end up replacing the crappy speaker in my raven ss with one of the celestions.... then maybe try to gut the whole thing and maybe replace it with a tube amp kit?


----------



## LuredMaul

Michael1987xl said:


> You've got that right. About the only thing worse than the search is finding that speaker and then discovering it's been discontinued when you go to build your second cabinet.
> 
> Eminence, as much as I love them and their stuff, pulled this on me with the Modeling 12. That thing had been around for YEARS, then it was just _gone_. I wrote them to find a comparable piece and to his credit Tony Lucas got back to me in record time recommending another model, but honestly, it's wasn't all that close. I'm back to square one on that front.



I have a Modeling 12 in great shape if your interested ....msg me. would be awesome to see it go to a home where someone knows what it is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was the M-12 popular? I wonder if sales declined on it and they just decided to yank it. As you said, they made it for many years. I'll bet there are still some of them in boxes at some master distributor.


----------



## LuredMaul

The M-12 was mainly used in the Line6 Ax212 and other modeling combo's for full range flat response. they have a freq curve almost opposite that of a regular guitar speaker which renders your signal almost FLAT. or that was the idea behind it.

These at the time where the best speaker for modeling technology.


----------



## Micky

Swamp Thangs came today. Woo Hoo!

Loaded them into the B cab, and had to rewire everything. Including a new jack plate.
Series-Parallel, 16Ω mono, 4Ω mono and 8Ω stereo. 600 watts total RMS.
Lemme warn you, these bitches are heavy. Over 11 lbs each (5kg). These are MUCH heavier than the Texas Heat, thank God they went into the B cab! Massive magnets!






MF had a coupon code for 15% off, so I pulled the trigger on a quad of these.
These photos do not do these speakers justice:










Anyway, after all the rewiring (had to rewire EVERYTHING, including a new jack plate and switch) and screwing everything back together these things sound GREAT!

Connected the full stack up to the Haze 15 head, I know this amp can't drive the speaker to breakup and it sounded fantastic. Clean channel on 5, only using the guitar controls on the LP I could get clean, twang, crunch and sustain with a bit of feedback just like a 100W plexi. (well, more like a DSL anyway...) Gain channel was freakin' nuts! Talk about BROWN sound! If I only had an AFD Les Paul to get some Shash shit-tone... 

Incredible punch, crunch, thrash, trash, scream and squeal. These, to me are the perfect compliment to the Texas Heats in the A cab. I can't wait to get them broken in, you can tell they are a bit stiff, and being a hi-power speaker, they probably won't loosen up much. Here is the spec sheet for this speaker:

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound 

You can see the specs, download a PDF sheet, and even hear sound clips of this beast.

Headed out for a few days, gonna leave the B cab hooked up to a clean amp with either the iPod or a sig gen on to help break them in. Should sound sweet by the time we get back this weekend!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Awesome job. Can't wait to hear more when you get back.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I'm soak'n this stuff in. Great info. So hard to roll speakers and you guys are doing just that.


----------



## thetragichero

Micky said:


> gonna leave the B cab hooked up to a clean amp with either the iPod or a sig gen on to help break them in. Should sound sweet by the time we get back this weekend!



can i have more info on this? i'll be on vacation for two weeks so i could have the guy who's coming to feed the cats turn it off after some specific period of time
it won't damage the two 13 year old celestions i'm going to have in there, will it?


----------



## Micky

thetragichero said:


> can i have more info on this? i'll be on vacation for two weeks so i could have the guy who's coming to feed the cats turn it off after some specific period of time
> it won't damage the two 13 year old celestions i'm going to have in there, will it?


 Chances are if your speakers are 13 years old they don't need to be broken in.


----------



## MM54

Micky said:


> Chances are if your speakers are 13 years old they don't need to be broken in.



When I re-purposed (okay, screwed them into a piece of plywood) a pair of organ speakers from the 60's to listen to music through, they definitely broke in after a couple days. Man, they sounded like shit the first couple hours 

(For reference, in my shop I mounted them on a board which I can set wherever I want for acoustic experimentation. I chopped up an old Fender 15G and put a jack on the back of it and plugged them into it. An adapter for ipod to amp input and I have a pretty decent music system now )


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah as I said, I like to use a signal generator to break in speakers, because you can select a 75Hz sine wave and then you can control the amplitude or volume. Run it for two days and it is ready to call your cab home.


----------



## thetragichero

Micky said:


> Chances are if your speakers are 13 years old they don't need to be broken in.



i meant the two red white and blues i'm gonna get


----------



## Micky

Generally you can connect the speakers to an amp, and run some music or other signal thru them for a bit to help loosen them up.


----------



## thetragichero

does it have to be blasting? loud enough to hear it?


----------



## Micky

Not blasting, just enough to wiggle the spyder and move the cone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Eminence gives a Thiele and Small parameter called Xmax. This is the maximum distance the speaker can move. Say it is 5/16 of an inch. I would then set my signal generator for around 1/4-inch and let it ride on 70 to 75Hz for about 24 hours. 

Eminence speakers, especially the high wattage models, have a tight suspension and they require some effort to break them in.

On the Red, White and Blues, it is 0.8mm or .31 inches. As you can see, this is a very stiff speaker.

I'm sort of shocked as the Black Powder is known for its bass and it's maximum excursion is only 0.5mm.

Swamp Thang is 0.8mm.


----------



## thetragichero

any preferences on genre to subliminally infuse my new speakers with mojo?
hey... i think i should give hellatone a call.... this could be the next selling point for speakers: broken in with skynyrd, for that CLASSIC southern twang! 
maybe if i break it in with appetite i can sound like slash?!


----------



## LesPaulopolis

Any suggestions for a hard rock guitarist who likes Pink Floyd and Tool tones?

I'm thinking keep 2 of my g12-75s and pop for 2 Governors??? Or will the dB discrepancy be too large?

Suggestions Marty?

Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

LesPaulopolis said:


> Any suggestions for a hard rock guitarist who likes Pink Floyd and Tool tones?
> 
> I'm thinking keep 2 of my g12-75s and pop for 2 Governors??? Or will the dB discrepancy be too large?
> 
> Suggestions Marty?
> 
> Thanks!



If you want to try a Governor, then try a V30. The Governor is a clone of a V30, but it has a higher SPL and the wattage capability is 75WRMS. A Governor is 5dB hotter than a 75. No way that is going to work. I actually do not recommend the 75/V30 combo as this is a 3dB spread. However, several cab companies sell 412's with this combination, so I can only say some people like it.

The problem is finding a sweet speaker to match up to the 75. It is a 97dB speaker, so ideally, the other speaker would be 97, 98 or 99. Eminence does not recommend going beyond a 2dB spread. 

Now if you had a pair of V30's, I would recommend a pair of Texas Heats, although the Heats actually match up better to the Governors. 

My favorite cabinet right now is a pair of Tonespotters (G12-65's) in the top and Black Powders in the bottom. I also have a 412 with Governors and Texas Heat in an X pattern.

For you, it would be nice to try out something like two Swamp Thangs and two Wizards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A solid amp isn't good for anything unless you have it hooked up to your dream cab. Tell me a little about your favorite cab.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you looking for cheap speakers or the lowest price on good speakers?


----------



## Micky

As long as you purchase from a reputable dealer you will be fine.
Also, you should go to the Introduce Yourself section and post a bit about yourself there.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Jim Smith...John Smith...seo specialist.... 

I smell spam frying in the pan.....


----------



## thetragichero

red white and blues are on their way
since there's about a 4db difference between the 2 g12Ls that'll still be in the cab (until i can pick up some black powders) and the two red white and blues, how should i arrange them in the cab? X configuration? red white and blues on top? bottom?


----------



## Supertzar

I think I've finally cracked the tone code I was after with the Celestion Classic Lead 80's and the Celestion G12H Heritages in an X-Pattern that I installed in my Marshall 1960B cab yesterday. I'm addicted already and the speakers aren't even broken in yet. Responds to pick dynamics like nothing else, solo's cut like a knife and sounds amazing for clean, full-on Metal distortion and everything in the middle.

It originally had the standard 75 watt Celestions that were too scooped sounding for my taste so I yanked them and replaced them with Vintage 30's. Got sick of those after a while... harsh upper mids that sounded like glass breaking and heightened the sound of everything I played no matter how light or hard I picked the strings. I swapped 2 of those for G12H's in an X-Pattern and that combo made it even harder to EQ since the speakers are so different sounding. So I finally yanked the last 2 V30's for the Classic Leads and very pleased with the result.

If Marshall would design a signature amp in my name, I'd have this speaker combo in all of the matching cabs.


----------



## Walkingmanblues

Hello all. My first post on this forum, and I think I've come to the right place. Apologies if I'm not. Anyway, this is what I'm thinking about doing, and I wanted to bounce it off you here to see if it at least sounds like it might work. To start, I have a DSL401, which I LOVE, but the tubes are going south on it and I figured as long as I had her cracked open I'd see about replacing the stock speaker (I've never been happy with it in the OD channel, gets positively wraith like.) 

Anyway, after I thought about it long and hard enough, I concluded what I really wanted was an extension cab. 2x12 is about as big as I can go if want to stay married--and I do--so I naturally enough checked those out first. Long story short, after doing a lot of looking and thinking I've scaled back my plans to a 1x12 cab + a new speaker in the amp. So here's where it gets a little strange. I'm thinking about buying a new Epi Valve Junior cab, but replace it's stock Eminence "Lady Luck" with an Eminence "Cannabis Rex" (16Ohms) and replace the Goldback in the amp with an "Eminence Governor" (16Ohms, too, obviously). The whole deal would set me back about $290. So...I guess I'm asking two things, really: 1st, does pairing those two speakers seem a good choice? Like to hear your thoughts/recommendations on that. 2nd, do you think the Epi cab is a suitable home?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> red white and blues are on their way
> since there's about a 4db difference between the 2 g12Ls that'll still be in the cab (until i can pick up some black powders) and the two red white and blues, how should i arrange them in the cab? X configuration? red white and blues on top? bottom?



To balance it out, put the Red, White and Blues on the bottom. However, when you get the Black Powders, you'll want them on the bottom and the R, W and Blues on the top. I don't use and X pattern. I think they sound better with the Powders on the bottom.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Supertzar said:


> I think I've finally cracked the tone code I was after with the Celestion Classic Lead 80's and the Celestion G12H Heritages in an X-Pattern that I installed in my Marshall 1960B cab yesterday.
> 
> If Marshall would design a signature amp in my name, I'd have this speaker combo in all of the matching cabs.



Thanks for the review of your new rig. I don't think I have seen anyone on this thread with those two speakers paired. I love the G12H's. I don't have any real experience with the Lead 80's. Is this one of the Celestion's with a thicker bottom end?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Walkingmanblues said:


> To start, I have a DSL401, which I LOVE, but the tubes are going south on it and I figured as long as I had her cracked open I'd see about replacing the stock speaker (I've never been happy with it in the OD channel, gets positively wraith like.)
> 
> I'm thinking about buying a new Epi Valve Junior cab, but replace it's stock Eminence "Lady Luck" with an Eminence "Cannabis Rex" (16Ohms) and replace the Goldback in the amp with an "Eminence Governor" (16Ohms, too, obviously). The whole deal would set me back about $290. So...I guess I'm asking two things, really: 1st, does pairing those two speakers seem a good choice? Like to hear your thoughts/recommendations on that. 2nd, do you think the Epi cab is a suitable home?



Both of those speakers work in either an open or closed back, so that's one hurdle cleared. Both are 102dB, perfect acoustical match. I think this would be an aggressive sounding setup. The Governor is an Eminence clone of a V30. So it is more of a midrange speaker. If you don't want that, you could go with a Wizard (clone of a G12H-30), but with a much higher wattage handling.

A lot has to do with what you play and what you actually want out of your speakers. I just helped someone the other day with a DSL 401 and a 1933 Cab. They went with a Black Powder and a Texas Heat. However, the Black Powder is only available in 8 ohms, so the Texas Heat was also 8 ohms for a 4 ohm load on the 401.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Michael1987xl said:


> Jim Smith...John Smith...seo specialist....
> 
> I smell spam frying in the pan.....



Yeah, I did too and now I am convinced that it was a very clever way to get spam on the forum.


----------



## Micky

I have seen so much spam lately I didn't even notice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well they are getting clever about it. The dumb one's hit with about a dozen ad's and that right there gets them shot done. I think this is the first spammer on this thread.

I reported it to ADWEX.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

MartyStrat54 said:


> A solid amp isn't good for anything unless you have it hooked up to your dream cab. Tell me a little about your favorite cab.



I don't have a favorite since I've only used one! Ha, it's a JCM900 4x12 w/stock speakers.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you looking for cheap speakers or the lowest price on good speakers?



Lowest price on good speakers. My buddy has a 1x12 Celestion v30, so I'm going to try it some time, but comparing one speaker to four kinda seems like apples and oranges.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anyone who sells speakers and offers free shipping, or free shipping for orders over $100 is usually the best way to go. I just shipped four G12T-75's and it was a lot more money than I thought. So these companies that sell Eminence, Warehouse (WGS), Scumback are all priced about the same. Somewhere in the mid $70's to high $80's for most of their line.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

I'll report back once I try the v30! Most of the tone chasing satisfaction is so fleeting, I have to drop $200 and have it only be a slight improvement, or just different with a new drawback.

Thus is the tone quest!

Thanks for your suggestions, Marty.


----------



## MM54

Not guitar speaker-related, but it's speaker-related.

In my shop, I have two 12 inch AlNiCo Magnavox speakers from an organ that I listen to music through. Right now, they're just mounted on a board and sitting there. I get little to no low end from them - the EQ to get a decent sound is Treble and Mids at 0 and Bass on 10.

If I were to make a box to put these in, would I finally get some low-end without messing up the other frequencies, or do you think that the speakers are just too weak to do the low frequencies?


----------



## Micky

Sure! Put 'em in a box and you will be amazed!
Then you will realize that the highs are lacking, and you will wanna put in tweeters...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some organ speakers came with what they called "duo pairs." Both were 16 ohm, but one speaker was for bass (flat, ribbed cone) and the other speaker was for mids and highs (curved, smooth cone). However, if you have two of the same speakers, a 1.25 to 1.5 cubic foot box tuned (ported) to 55Hz will make them sound really rich. As Micky said, it may overpower the high end, but maybe not. 

Most of these organ speakers were used with small wattage amps. Most have 20 to 30 watt ratings and that is probably pushing it.

Don't try to tune the speakers too low, as if will do more harm than good. The main thing is to limit the speakers to a max of 20 watts.


----------



## MM54

It's a 15W amp into the pair of them, so I'm pretty sure they're safe from being blown (the magnets don't even get hot after a few hours of use).

Both cones are identical, as are all markings on the magnets, baskets, etc, so they're the same speaker.

Sometime next week I should have some spare plywood and will be able to make a box for them. How do I go about porting it to 55hz?


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you get your box done and the front and back panels are still off, measure the inside dimension. You will want to end up with something like 14Wx16Hx12D.

Now on the front baffle, near a bottom corner, use a 2 and 3/4 inch hole saw to pop a hole. This will tune a 1.5 cubic cab pretty close to 55Hz. You need to make the front tall and wide so you have room for the vent and 12-inch speaker. The nice thing about this is that you just need to cut a hole. You don't have to hot glue in a three-inch piece of 3-inch ABS pipe. I tried to get it down to the smallest size I could. If the hole gets to small, it will make a noise and ruin the sound.

This should be perfect.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey Marty. I have two JBL 2225's. Could you use your software to get a box size and porting for these? I'd like to try and get a solid 45Hz out of a 5 cubic foot box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That shouldn't be a problem. I've used that speaker a lot. It's a dandy. I'll run the info and PM it to you. I think five cubic foot is right on the edge of porting to 45Hz. I'll send you three different sizes.


----------



## MM54

Excellent, however...

14x16x12 won't very well fit two speakers, no?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Excellent, however...
> 
> 14x16x12 won't very well fit two speakers, no?



Oh, I thought you were going the stereo pair route? Sorry. 

You want a truck box like this one for only $63. 

Goldwood TR12D 12" Dual Sealed Box | Parts-Express.com

If you want to build it, you will notice that the truck box is around twice as big as the single box I quoted you.

The truck box is 32W, but it is wider at the bottom than the top. I don't know how much time you want to spend on the box (wiring, hardware, covering it, etc). 

A straight box would be 32Wx14Hx12D. I would also put a center divider in for strength and to make separate compartments.


----------



## thetragichero

according to ups tracking, my red white and blues will be waiting for me on my front porch when i get home in two hours!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Good score. Check them out good for damage. Who did you buy them from?


----------



## Micky

thetragichero said:


> according to ups tracking, my red white and blues will be waiting for me on my front porch when i get home in two hours!


 You are gonna be smilin'...


----------



## thetragichero

got the pair off ebay (they came in a 2x12 and the guy said he immediately swapped them for something else... they look pristine) for 112$ shipped (not a super great deal but i wanted them pretty much immediately)


----------



## Micky

Actually that IS a pretty good deal.
They are $75 each new...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good for you. The wait is over.

I have a pair not even broken in sitting in a 212 Randall combo. I think it's time to put some cheapo's in the Randall and get them Red, White and Blues singing in some other cab. I've always wanted to try them with some Texas Heats. I think the one's I have may be 8 ohms...bummer. 

Well I looked and it only shows 8 ohms. TRAGICHERO-What is the impedance of your speakers? 

To use Black Powders, I had to turn a 412 into an 8 ohm cab. No big deal.


----------



## thetragichero

the g12Ls are 8 ohms in an 8 ohm 4x12 cab
what are the benefits of having a 4, 8, or 16 ohm cab?
if i've got the thing open and one is better than the other.... that's the best time to figgur' out how to make it happen


----------



## MartyStrat54

No benefit at all. It is a myth that a tube amp sounds best on 16 ohm. If you have two 8 ohm cabs and set the amp to 4 ohms...no big deal. I may buy another 412 cab and do another Black Powder/Tonespotter install. That way I would have two 8 ohm 412 cabs and two 16 ohm cabs. 

A while back I bought a CRATE 412 cab that was one of their best. It came loaded with I believe G12-70 Celestions. I pulled the Celestions and it has Private Jack and Swamp Thangs in it. I just want to say that as a builder of cabs, this CRATE was put together very well. I got it for $135. I sold the speakers on EBAY for around $70 for all four. The bottom line is I got the cab for a whole lot less than what it costs to build one.

I modified the Black Powder cabinet. If you go back three or four pages I broke it down on what I did. Man, it has such tight low end. The Tonespotters are the clones of G12-65's. Really nice.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I think I am going to invest in some of those Black Powders. I just like the name. It sounds fitting. Are they as good as they advertise, Marty?


----------



## Micky

Just remember - the Black Powders are only available in 8 ohms.


----------



## Hillcountry

Hey Marty,
I have been thinking again. Uh-oh

The Wizards and Cannabis Rex are so loud in a 4x12 combo...it is cool but wow...they are loud. I am thinking of putting the Wizards in a closed 2x12, and the CR in a split-back 2x12 and then putting my Vintage 30's with my Legend GB128s in the 4x12. Do you think the V30 with the GB128 would be a good mix? They seem like they would match up nicely. 

I'll try it to see if it is a good mix.
-Hillcountry


----------



## thetragichero

got home and unpacked the speakers - they look PRISTINE... and they're nice and heavy/beefy!
then i threw some steaks on the grill and fell asleep because i've been working so much

tonight is the night for speaker installation!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> Hey Marty,
> I have been thinking again. Uh-oh
> 
> The Wizards and Cannabis Rex are so loud in a 4x12 combo...it is cool but wow...they are loud. I am thinking of putting the Wizards in a closed 2x12, and the CR in a split-back 2x12 and then putting my Vintage 30's with my Legend GB128s in the 4x12. Do you think the V30 with the GB128 would be a good mix? They seem like they would match up nicely.
> 
> I'll try it to see if it is a good mix.
> -Hillcountry



I did an article a while back that touched on all of this. Some members said my data was wrong, but I sent it in to Anthony Lucas at Eminence and he gave it the green light. 

Yes, you put really loud speakers in that 412 cab. Now imagine how loud a 20 watt amp could get with that set up? I have shown in the past that pairing a small amp with the right speakers would result in getting the same SPL's as if it were a 50 watt amp. Imagine using a VOX Night Train as your main head? You could with a 412 loaded with Wizard's and the REX.

Now as far as the new line up. Yes, they both match up well in the sensitivity category. The GB128 has what they call a sparkly top end. It has a hump in its graph at the high end of its response. The V30 has a little of the same, so hopefully it won't be too shrill. All you can do is load them and give it a shot.

Sorry that the Wizards and the REX were too powerful. Now if only you had a 10 watt amp?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I think I am going to invest in some of those Black Powders. I just like the name. It sounds fitting. Are they as good as they advertise, Marty?



If you need some tight low end, the Black Powders will deliver. They sound good by themselves as well. I think they are like the Texas Heat in the fact that they blend in with other speakers really well. In fact a Texas Heat and a Black Powder together would probably sound good. These are all 100db or so speakers. The Texas Heat in 16 ohm is 100dB. In 8 ohm it is 99dB. The Black Powder is only available in 8 ohm and it is 100dB. 

I have a 412 cab with 16 ohm Governors and Texas Heats. I put the Gov's on the bottom (102dB) and the Heats on top (100dB).


----------



## solarburn

Marty how are the mids in the Black powders again? Lows are tight. Its not a scooped speaker is it? Highs are not shrill?

I think I want to try a Wizard in one of my 112 cabs and then a Black powder in the other. Do the Wizards come in 8ohm too? You prolly already answered these questions but I'm jus thinking out loud...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty how are the mids in the Black powders again? Lows are tight. Its not a scooped speaker is it? Highs are not shrill?
> 
> I think I want to try a Wizard in one of my 112 cabs and then a Black powder in the other. Do the Wizards come in 8ohm too? You prolly already answered these questions but I'm jus thinking out loud...



Yes JOE, the Wizard is available in both 8 or 16 ohms.

The Black Powder has what I call a "reverse frequency" graph. Most guitar speakers have a dip at around 1.5KHz and then a hump at around 2KHz and then a falling off of the high end.

In the case of the Black Powder, it is flat between 100 and 1KHz. Mids are pronounced, but not scooped. Then it starts a rise going up to 2KHz. IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY DIPS. Now the usable bass is down to 70Hz and the high end is good for 5KHz. The high end is what I call sparkly. The peak it has starting at 2K will make it have good definition and harmonics. The Black Powder sounds much better when broken in. It's a little stiff out of the box. Once broken in, you get better lows. The mids and highs get a little warmer.

I broke mine in on a signal generator at 75Hz for about 48 hours.

The Wizard is louder than the Black Powder by about 3dB. It has a typical graph, but it has extended highs. It's dip starts at 1.2KHz and bottoms out at 1.5KHz. It then rises to a peak of 2.4KHz and then rolls of. Again, these peaks on the high end add definition and clarity.

Cheap/bad speakers are generally shrill. This is usually attributed to poor cone construction. When you look at an Eminence cone new out of the box, you can see the quality.


----------



## Hillcountry

Well I still plan on using the Wizards and the CRs because they sound awesome. The Cannabis Rex has such a great tone and feel I really like it. I just don't need four speakers cranking out 102-103db in the 4x12. I will have my two amps run through each 2x12. One with Wizards, one with Cannabis Rex. The Wizards will be driven by a super-lead circuit (4x6v6) , and the Cannabis Rex by a JTM 45 circuit. Should work great -- I hope. I'll update on the V30/GB128 pairings in the 4x12 as I get it all set up this weekend.
-Hillcountry


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes JOE, the Wizard is available in both 8 or 16 ohms.
> 
> The Black Powder has what I call a "reverse frequency" graph. Most guitar speakers have a dip at around 1.5KHz and then a hump at around 2KHz and then a falling off of the high end.
> 
> In the case of the Black Powder, it is flat between 100 and 1KHz. Mids are pronounced, but not scooped. Then it starts a rise going up to 2KHz. IT DOES NOT HAVE ANY DIPS. Now the usable bass is down to 70Hz and the high end is good for 5KHz. The high end is what I call sparkly. The peak it has starting at 2K will make it have good definition and harmonics. The Black Powder sounds much better when broken in. It's a little stiff out of the box. Once broken in, you get better lows. The mids and highs get a little warmer.
> 
> I broke mine in on a signal generator at 75Hz for about 48 hours.
> 
> The Wizard is louder than the Black Powder by about 3dB. It has a typical graph, but it has extended highs. It's dip starts at 1.2KHz and bottoms out at 1.5KHz. It then rises to a peak of 2.4KHz and then rolls of. Again, these peaks on the high end add definition and clarity.
> 
> Cheap/bad speakers are generally shrill. This is usually attributed to poor cone construction. When you look at an Eminence cone new out of the box, you can see the quality.



Excellent descriptions Marty. Gave me everything I need to know. Thanx for taking the time. What was that Alnico Eminence...Back Country or something. I can't remember but I know you stated you'd like to try them out...?

On the Eminence clips page I like the Wizard alot. I think it would go well with the Monza. The Black Powders sounded good too and may be a good match for the NT...

I like the Cannabis Rex as well. There are too many damn flavors to choose from. I think maybe I'll try the CR and BP and put the Wizard on hold...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The alnico is the Black Mountain. It has a 68Hz free air resonant frequency. It is rated a 70 to 5.5KHz. The graph show that it is like a HiFi speaker from 100 to 900Hz. Then the speaker dips at 900, then it humps and dips back again at 1.9KHz. It then humps stronger the last time. It goes to a high at 2.5KHz and then rolls off to a useful 5.5KHz. 

I've done some other research and I think that there are some other Eminence speakers that have close to or as good of a bottom end as this speaker. Two of them are the Red, White and Blues and the Texas Heat.

Now if you take the Black Mountain and put it in a 2.25 cubic foot "vented" box, it will be very fat on the low end, but you could probably get close with some of these other speakers. However, just putting them in a sealed 412 cab, some of these other models might have better low end.

I'm going to run the Black Mountain on my software. I'll get back to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The alnico is the Black Mountain. It has a 68Hz free air resonant frequency. It is rated a 70 to 5.5KHz. The graph show that it is like a HiFi speaker from 100 to 900Hz. Then the speaker dips at 900, then it humps and dips back again at 1.9KHz. It then humps stronger the last time. It goes to a high at 2.5KHz and then rolls off to a useful 5.5KHz. 

I've done some other research and I think that there are some other Eminence speakers that have close to or as good of a bottom end as this speaker. Two of them are the Red, White and Blues and the Texas Heat.

Now if you take the Black Mountain and put it in a 2.25 cubic foot "vented" box, it will be very fat on the low end, but you could probably get close with some of these other speakers. However, just putting them in a sealed 412 cab, some of these other models might have better low end.

I'm going to run the Black Mountain on my software. I'll get back to you.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The alnico is the Black Mountain. It has a 68Hz free air resonant frequency. It is rated a 70 to 5.5KHz. The graph show that it is like a HiFi speaker from 100 to 900Hz. Then the speaker dips at 900, then it humps and dips back again at 1.9KHz. It then humps stronger the last time. It goes to a high at 2.5KHz and then rolls off to a useful 5.5KHz.
> 
> I've done some other research and I think that there are some other Eminence speakers that have close to or as good of a bottom end as this speaker. Two of them are the Red, White and Blues and the Texas Heat.
> 
> Now if you take the Black Mountain and put it in a 2.25 cubic foot "vented" box, it will be very fat on the low end, but you could probably get close with some of these other speakers. However, just putting them in a sealed 412 cab, some of these other models might have better low end.
> 
> I'm going to run the Black Mountain on my software. I'll get back to you.



Thanx man.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I ran the Black Mountain. In a 412 cab, the low end is not that hot. It's about 78Hz. However, as I said, put it in a 2.5 cubic foot box and it drops down to 64.74Hz.

Just to give you a concept about volume, a 412 cab is usually about 5.2 cubic foot for a 1960A style cab. This is okay for sealed applications, but you get the least amount of bass. Same with an open back, the bass is not very good and can be a little flubby if you play a lot of low notes with effects.

If you put "two" speakers in a 412 cab and seal the other two holes off and put the right vent in the cab, you will get a 14Hz drop in the low end and that is a huge difference. (This is with the Black Mountains, but there are other Eminence speakers that can pull this off.)

You see, once the signal goes beyond 80Hz, it starts taking more and more power to duplicate the signal. Add to that the speakers impedance is rising in the lower registers and can actually get to 30 ohms or more, so there is a lot fighting the amp to get that speaker to bark low. (At 70Hz on the BM's, the impedance is 90 ohms.) Keep in mind that it is not a steady 70Hz signal, it is fluctuating. That's what is saving the amp.

If I was a drop tune player, I would play with two, 412 cabs, but I would only have two 12's in each cab. I would have the cabs tuned to about 68Hz and the speakers themselves would pound down past 65Hz (like a Drop C). I would use higher output, higher wattage speakers and then I would have a rig that not only has a lot of bottom, it will still be as loud as a full stack.

Now test #2. I ran a Red, White and Blues. In the same box it actually has better low end then the Black Mountain to about 70Hz and then it drops like a brick. The Black Mountain has a more gradual slope and and has extended bass down below 60Hz.

In the world of bass, there is a big difference between 60 and 70Hz. What it means is in a regular tuning, your low E is going to just slay. An A power chord will feel like a jackhammer. Everything will be thicker and punchier.

I also ran the BM in a 1.7 cubic foot box (about the smallest I could go with a vent). It still had some decent bass, but the R, W and Blues was better in the 2.5 c.f. box. It all depends on the box and the speaker. These speakers all have different parameters and with the right tools, you can see exactly what they will do.


----------



## thetragichero

have an mp3 player going through the pa into my cqab to break it in
should i worry about leaving a ss pa (kustom 40 watt... probably 15-20 years old) on for two days?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I ran the Black Mountain. In a 412 cab, the low end is not that hot. It's about 78Hz. However, as I said, put it in a 2.5 cubic foot box and it drops down to 64.74Hz.
> 
> Just to give you a concept about volume, a 412 cab is usually about 5.2 cubic foot for a 1960A style cab. This is okay for sealed applications, but you get the least amount of bass. Same with an open back, the bass is not very good and can be a little flubby if you play a lot of low notes with effects.
> 
> If you put "two" speakers in a 412 cab and seal the other two holes off and put the right vent in the cab, you will get a 14Hz drop in the low end and that is a huge difference. (This is with the Black Mountains, but there are other Eminence speakers that can pull this off.)
> 
> You see, once the signal goes beyond 80Hz, it starts taking more and more power to duplicate the signal. Add to that the speakers impedance is rising in the lower registers and can actually get to 30 ohms or more, so there is a lot fighting the amp to get that speaker to bark low. (At 70Hz on the BM's, the impedance is 90 ohms.) Keep in mind that it is not a steady 70Hz signal, it is fluctuating. That's what is saving the amp.
> 
> If I was a drop tune player, I would play with two, 412 cabs, but I would only have two 12's in each cab. I would have the cabs tuned to about 68Hz and the speakers themselves would pound down past 65Hz (like a Drop C). I would use higher output, higher wattage speakers and then I would have a rig that not only has a lot of bottom, it will still be as loud as a full stack.
> 
> Now test #2. I ran a Red, White and Blues. In the same box it actually has better low end then the Black Mountain to about 70Hz and then it drops like a brick. The Black Mountain has a more gradual slope and and has extended bass down below 60Hz.
> 
> In the world of bass, there is a big difference between 60 and 70Hz. What it means is in a regular tuning, your low E is going to just slay. An A power chord will feel like a jackhammer. Everything will be thicker and punchier.
> 
> I also ran the BM in a 1.7 cubic foot box (about the smallest I could go with a vent). It still had some decent bass, but the R, W and Blues was better in the 2.5 c.f. box. It all depends on the box and the speaker. These speakers all have different parameters and with the right tools, you can see exactly what they will do.



Ok. I'd take a pass on these. Thanx for checking all this out. I think I really will try a BP and CR in my 112 cabs...when I can. Eventually I'm gonna try a Wizard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> have an mp3 player going through the pa into my cqab to break it in
> should i worry about leaving a ss pa (kustom 40 watt... probably 15-20 years old) on for two days?



You might make sure it is getting good ventilation. Maybe a small fan on it, but no, it shouldn't be hard on it as long as it isn't getting hot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok. I'd take a pass on these. Thanx for checking all this out. I think I really will try a BP and CR in my 112 cabs...when I can. Eventually I'm gonna try a Wizard.



JOE-What are you looking for in a speaker? I take you don't want massive low end. Just remember, in a sealed box, a lot of these speakers are gonna die at around 75Hz.


----------



## thetragichero

how desireable are celestion vintage 30s?
one of the pawn shops has a b-52 stealth series 412 cab for 300 clams
according to b-52's site, it's a birch cab with 4 v30s


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ran the Black Powder and it's a great performer for the money in a 2.5 cubic foot box. It actually has a stronger 100 to 120Hz hump than any of the speakers tested so far. Nice roll off on the low end.

Did the Wizard next and it is smoother in the low end and it has about the same bass in a small box as a large one. In other words, putting it into a stock 412 cab would be about as good as it would get. No real advantage of going with a big box on this speaker. That is why it is only listed as recommended for use in a sealed enclosure. A sealed box will tighten the low end, but a vented box really won't gain you anything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> how desireable are celestion vintage 30s?
> one of the pawn shops has a b-52 stealth series 412 cab for 300 clams
> according to b-52's site, it's a birch cab with 4 v30s



Well if you like V30's it's a good deal. If you want to sell the V30's and load it with something else, you'll probably have a good cab.

Go on EBAY to get an idea of what the V30's are going for.

To me it's a good deal. If you don't like the V30's sell them, but make sure they are broken in good before you pass judgment.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ran the Black Powder and it's a great performer for the money in a 2.5 cubic foot box. It actually has a stronger 100 to 120Hz hump than any of the speakers tested so far. Nice roll off on the low end.
> 
> Did the Wizard next and it is smoother in the low end and it has about the same bass in a small box as a large one. In other words, putting it into a stock 412 cab would be about as good as it would get. No real advantage of going with a big box on this speaker. That is why it is only listed as recommended for use in a sealed enclosure. A sealed box will tighten the low end, but a vented box really won't gain you anything.



Both my 112 cabs are open back. I put them up against a wall to help with low end. From what I read the BP does well in an open back cab or was it the Wizard I'm thinking of...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Wizard is not recommended for open back. Also, there is a difference between open back and vented. More and more guitarist's are opting for a vented cab. A vented cab is tuned for a specific frequency. That frequency is determined by the speaker to be used. In other words, it is a system. The drawback is you can't just swap speakers around in a vented cab. With guitar it isn't too bad, but for bass guitar, it could mean the difference between a speaker working well and one that works for five minutes. It's that critical. The Black Powder is listed as vented, but I'm sure it is fine in an open back cab.

70Hz to 60Hz is a jump on the bass scale, but by the time you hit 50, things are a whole lot different. Only 12-inch speakers designated as mid-bass drivers can handle this and they usually can go a little deeper. Then you have to consider a 15 or 18-inch bass speaker and these require very large boxes that need to be vented to a very close tolerance. I once built two, twelve cubic foot boxes with RFC 18-inch subwoofers. They went from low A (28Hz) up to 60 Hz and then they were crossed-over to 12-inch mid-bass drivers taking it from there.

Believe it or not, at a large rock concert, the big, powerful subs are usually ran to no higher than 60Hz. So those big cabs with monster amps are only reproducing a 20 to 25Hz bandwidth. That's all. (Low E on a bass is about 42Hz.)

As you can see, it takes massive power to create bass signals. That's why we play guitars.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the Wizard is not recommended for open back. Also, there is a difference between open back and vented. More and more guitarist's are opting for a vented cab. A vented cab is tuned for a specific frequency. That frequency is determined by the speaker to be used. In other words, it is a system. The drawback is you can't just swap speakers around in a vented cab. With guitar it isn't too bad, but for bass guitar, it could mean the difference between a speaker working well and one that works for five minutes. It's that critical. The Black Powder is listed as vented, but I'm sure it is fine in an open back cab.
> 
> 70Hz to 60Hz is a jump on the bass scale, but by the time you hit 50, things are a whole lot different. Only 12-inch speakers designated as mid-bass drivers can handle this and they usually can go a little deeper. Then you have to consider a 15 or 18-inch bass speaker and these require very large boxes that need to be vented to a very close tolerance. I once built two, twelve cubic foot boxes with RFC 18-inch subwoofers. They went from low A (28Hz) up to 60 Hz and then they were crossed-over to 12-inch mid-bass drivers taking it from there.
> 
> Believe it or not, at a large rock concert, the big, powerful subs are usually ran to no higher than 60Hz. So those big cabs with monster amps are only reproducing a 20 to 25Hz bandwidth. That's all. (Low E on a bass is about 42Hz.)
> 
> As you can see, it takes massive power to create bass signals. That's why we play guitars.



Thats right. The Wizard isn't. I read something about use in an open back cab on one of these Eminence speakers hehe. Thanks Mang.


----------



## Hillcountry

I tried the Wizards in an open back cab and they sounded bad. They had a high end sizzle and instant ear fatigue. I put them back in a closed 2x12 and all was well again. 

Thinking about what Marty said, they sound best driven by my 18 watt amp.

-Hillcountry


----------



## bayside

opp's


----------



## solarburn

Hillcountry said:


> I tried the Wizards in an open back cab and they sounded bad. They had a high end sizzle and instant ear fatigue. I put them back in a closed 2x12 and all was well again.
> 
> Thinking about what Marty said, they sound best driven by my 18 watt amp.
> 
> -Hillcountry



I'll do the Wizards in my 212 cab then when I get to trying it. Its a closed back Avatar Contemporary. I've read a few more responses about using them in OB and they didn't sound good either. 

I just need to work more OT to get there anytime soon hehe.


----------



## thetragichero

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I just need to work more OT to get there anytime soon hehe.



i've been doing quite a bit of this myself to fund my GAS!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I wanted to pass this on. An email from Anthony Lucas of Eminence.

Marty:

Yeah, the Commonwealth is the only Patriot based on something else. People draw conclusions and make comparisons with other models to other brands, but it was not our original intent to base or design them like anything else.

Texas Heat has a lot of low end and, to me, sounds a little bigger than the 99dB SPL rating....so pairing it with a lot of other speakers is feasible.

Sounds like you enjoy experimenting! We greatly appreciate your support! What's your address and shirt size, Marty? I need to send you some Eminence swag. You need to look the part if you're going to be on the team.

Anthony Lucas, Eminence Speakers

Looks like I'm at least getting a shirt out of the deal.


----------



## thrawn86

Way cool Marty. Heck, they should pay you a consultancy fee.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh I wanted to pass this on. An email from Anthony Lucas of Eminence.
> 
> Marty:
> 
> Yeah, the Commonwealth is the only Patriot based on something else. People draw conclusions and make comparisons with other models to other brands, but it was not our original intent to base or design them like anything else.
> 
> Texas Heat has a lot of low end and, to me, sounds a little bigger than the 99dB SPL rating....so pairing it with a lot of other speakers is feasible.
> 
> Sounds like you enjoy experimenting! We greatly appreciate your support! What's your address and shirt size, Marty? I need to send you some Eminence swag. You need to look the part if you're going to be on the team.
> 
> Anthony Lucas, Eminence Speakers
> 
> Looks like I'm at least getting a shirt out of the deal.



Must post  when you get it...


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yeah what Thrawn said. Yeah, I enjoy this thread a lot. I finished up going through all of the pages.

Eminence makes some really nice speakers.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Way cool Marty. Heck, they should pay you a consultancy fee.



+2


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I noticed he didn't just say a "tee shirt." He said some "swag." Damn, I might even get some guitar picks.

Speaking of guitar picks. If you buy an Eminence speaker, it comes with two medium guitar picks and a cool little badge to put on you cab that says, "Powered by Eminence" on it. 

EMINENCE SWAG...I love it. 

Yes I will get the camera out and you will see what I got.:cool2::cool2:


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I think they have guitar straps as promotional swag.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As many speakers as I have bought off of them, I was hoping for, "Marty, you can have your pick of four speakers." That would be nice. A 412 cab loaded for free.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Oh that would be very nice. Four free speakers.

Just remember it's tight for them as with everyone, so to get anything free is a great gesture.


----------



## MartyStrat54

True, true. I'll take anything from Eminence for sure.


----------



## MartyStrat54

T N L-Meet me over at my Strat thread.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Will do Mr. Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's Sunday night and really slow on the Forum. Anybody out there?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'm still around. I'm wide awake.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh good, I was just about ready to split. Are you staying out of trouble?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

No, I've been following you around all night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

True, true. I have run you down some rocky paths tonight. But then there were some good one's as well.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

There isn't a lot popping right now. I guess there's always the boob thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, we could go over there and it's pretty much a smoker's lounge.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

see ya over there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Deal.


----------



## MM54

Getting some swag? Nicely done, Marty


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> A straight box would be 32Wx14Hx12D. I would also put a center divider in for strength and to make separate compartments.



What size would I want the port to be with this setup? I have half a sheet of birch plywood left over and likely will be building the box soon. I'm getting tired of the out-of-phase-ness from the back of the speakers bouncing off the concrete floor in my shop


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> What size would I want the port to be with this setup?



I'm assuming for stereo that you are putting a divider in the box to separate the two speakers. Each side you need to put a 2 and 3/4-inch hole to tune it. I would put them in the front. You should have room. If not, put them in the back.


----------



## Hillcountry

OK Ok...so I am done messing around (for now) with my speakers. The Cannabis Rex and Wizards are staying in the 4x12 because it sounds incredible. I have the cab split so I run two heads through it powering a CR and Wizard on each side (the Wizards are on the bottom). I Cranked up the JTM45 and my Superlead (4x6v6) amp through it and it was wonderful. I will leave it. It is powerfully loud, but I like it. I'll put a plexi shield in front of it to tame it slightly anyway so no big deal. The CRs add a great woodiness to the sound. They are getting sweeter as I play them. The Wizards give a ton of bottom. I don't know if this is an advertised combo but I love it. I would define it as open with grunt. Whatever that means! 

What are other peoples opinions of the Cannabis Rex and the Wizard?


----------



## MartyStrat54

In a sealed back application, the Wizard kicks ass. I'm glad that worked out for you. Yes, the CR's and the Wizards make for a very loud cabinet. You've got some high SPL speakers there and 10 watts is going to be loud.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of loud, I tried a 8 ohm pair of Man 'O Wars with a 8 ohm pair of Swamp Thangs. It was like a B-52 crashed into a semi loaded with hogs at a Mexican petroleum facility. Wow! Some of these Eminence speakers are just incredibly loud. A 20 watt amps best friend. 

"See how the little 20 watt amp slayed the 100 watt half stack."

My MOWars are rated at 102dB and they are loud. Eminence does make quite a few speakers in the 101-102dB range to try a mix with.


Also got around to try another mixed pair. After looking at the graphs from Eminence, I discovered that the Private Jack (high power Greenback) would pair nicely with the Texas heat. They both are 100dB speakers. Got them installed and did a polarity check before putting the grille on. Using a AAA battery, I checked the polarity. Man, the Private Jacks barely moved. The Texas Heats had been broken in and they moved a lot better. Nonetheless, they sound great together. Another magnificent pairing. The graphs don't lie, especially if you are mixing an Eminence with another Eminence. Both speakers were listed as great for rock and blues. Just what the doctor ordered.


----------



## Hillcountry

Yeah, my 18 watt clone sounds so huge through those speakers.

I am still trying to picture a B-52 hitting a semi full of hogs at a Mexican petroleum facility. I am undecided about the potential for a hell of a bar-b-que or just a hell of a mess. If the B-52 is loaded with slaw, potato salad, and sauce than I think it is a hit. Oh...the EMTs need to have cobbler with them or it will be a real disaster. But I digress...


----------



## Micky

Hillcountry said:


> I am still trying to picture a B-52 hitting a semi full of hogs at a Mexican petroleum facility. I am undecided about the potential for a hell of a bar-b-que or just a hell of a mess. If the B-52 is loaded with slaw, potato salad, and sauce than I think it is a hit. Oh...the EMTs need to have cobbler with them or it will be a real disaster. But I digress...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey it made perfect sense to me. I like that, the plane carrying all of the side dishes and the EMT's covering for the desert. The fuselage on the B-52 would turn into a giant smoker and one of the jet engines would provide the gas heat. 

Bar-B-Q for ten thousand people. Say...like a rock festival!


----------



## MartyStrat54

HERE ARE MY LATEST CABS. ONE IS A MODDED 900, 1960A CAB (ON RIGHT). THE OTHER IS A MODDED HIGH END PEAVEY CAB (ON LEFT). THE 1960 IS LOADED WITH BLACK POWDER'S ON THE BOTTOM AND TONESPOTTER'S ON THE TOP. THE PEAVEY CAB HAS PRIVATE JACK'S IN THE BOTTOM AND TEXAS HEAT'S IN THE TOP.

JMP 2203 ON THE LEFT, JCM 2204 ON THE RIGHT.


----------



## Micky

They need a droolyface emoticon...


----------



## MartyStrat54

EAT YOUR HEART OUT TED NUGENT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> They need a droolyface emoticon...



Thanks Micky.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Them cabs and heads sure are purdy. Purdy I tell ya.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What's the Texas and Private's doing for ya?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm getting some really bluesy tones out of this combination. Good high end, but warmer tones, not harsh.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'd be real interested in playing those. I think it has rock written all over it. What is the cab rated at?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Heats are rated at 150WRMS, the Jack's are 50WRMS. This means the cab is rated at 200WRMS.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Still plenty good for a 50 or 100 watt head.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep. Both cabs are more than enough for a 100 watt tube head. 

I'm looking forward to trying out some DiMarzio pickups in my Strat AM Deluxe.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What do you got going on there?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well another member who is heavy into DiMarzio is going to mail me some bridge humbuckers to try out. I'm stoked.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well that's mighty cool of him. What are they?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Air Norton, Fred and PAF PRO. Some real honeys. DiMarzio recommended the Air Norton for what I'm trying to do. Now I'll get to try it out before I buy.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What are you looking to do?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my 89 Strat Plus is always going to sound smooth and sweet with the Gold LACE pickups.

For my ash Strat Deluxe, I want to get more of a hot blues/rock tone out of it. More like say Les Paul tones out of the bridge. Searing, singing sustain on the notes.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I like that. That sounds great. I'm thinking of Gary Moore and that vid that eljeffe posted.
He got that with a single coil in the bridge.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I would love to know what was in that Strat. I guarantee he had a hot one in the bridge.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Soooo, I might look for an empty cab to load. I'm really wanting to try those Black Powders. Would you recommend all four the same, or a mix?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the BP's stand up on their own just fine, but I would go with either some Texas Heat's or Tonespotters with the BP's.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

They only come in 8 ohm right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that's the only drawback. But an 8 ohm half stack ain't any problem, at least not to me.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I might have a lead on a 412 cab with blown speakers in it for $100.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dude, if it is a birch cab, jump on it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Will talk some more if I get it. I'm going to cruise around. I'm sure we will hook up again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll see you over at the Strat thread.


----------



## 00jett

Great looking cabs Marty! Those speaker combinations sounds interesting, do you have those cabs ported/tuned?


----------



## MartyStrat54

HERE IS A REPRINT OF MY ORIGINAL POST FROM PAGE 8.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, here are some pictures and comments from my latest renovations of the 1960A cab. Some of you are aware of what I have been up to. Recently I bought around $1200 in Eminence speakers and I have been trying out different pairs in a 412 cab.
> 
> The 1960A has been modified. The G12T-75's were removed and sold. All the screws were tightened the handles were glued to prevent rattles. I cut two, four inch holes in the back panel. In the holes went aperiodic vents. Real quickly, they make speakers think they are in a larger box. A thick pad of fiberglass was applied to the back. (Not shown in the pictures is the cut out in the fiberglass for the center post.)
> 
> I've currently tried several combo's of speakers. In the picture is the Black Powder and the Tonespotter. I really like the Black Powder and would recommend it for those who play any type of heavy metal with drop tunings. The Black Powder has a low resonance and has a tight midrange with a nice splash of highs. A 412 of these would make a killer thrash, death, or grindcore speaker. Palm mutes are brutal and tight.
> 
> I just pulled the Private Jacks out and installed the Tonespotters. The Private Jacks are clones of Greenbacks and the Tonespotter is a clone of the G12-65. It's 2:40 AM and I can't play right now. I'll be curious to see how the Tonespotters sound as the response curve is similar to the Private Jack.
> 
> I'll post more later on the tone of the speakers. Here are some pictures.
> 
> Stock G12T-75 still in the cab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back side of the two, aperiodic vents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back panel showing the two, aperiodic vents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slab of fiberglass on back panel. I had to cut a notch out for the center post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Powder and Tonespotters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Powder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tonespotter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finished cab ready for testing.



So the 1960A cab has aperiodic vents, which act differently than a port. They make the speakers think they are in a larger sealed cab. Of course, as pointed out, I installed fiberglass to help smooth out standing waves inside of the cab.

The Peavey cab is stock except for fiberglass and the back panel has been modded to just a 16 ohm setting. Again, this contains the Private Jack (high power Greenback) and the Texas Heat speakers. I've got about 8 hours left on their break-in with the signal generator, but I did play them for a while prior to this and they sounded really good together. I think this will be a great hot rod blues cab and the 1960A will be a heavy rock/metal cab.

Thanks for your interest. If you have any questions, feel free to post.


----------



## 00jett

Oops sorry Marty, didn't realize these were the same cabinets you showed earlier. You have so many projects on the go around here its hard to follow!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm hear to tell you that the Tonespotters/Black Powders put a whipping on the Private Jacks and Texas Heats. It's too thin. I'm spoiled on the Black Powders.

I'm going to have to find some other pairing for these speakers. On paper it looked good, but in the cab it's a different story.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As promised, EMINENCE SWAG. I got the shirt and 10 guitar picks. Better than nothing at all.





















Gray is my favorite base color. Doesn't show dirt and it's cooler on ya than black.


----------



## MM54

Nice


----------



## Micky

Fuck You Marty.
All I got was picks...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as far as the picks go, I use orange Tortex. However, the Eminence picks are mediums and I use them when I ain't sweating.

Hey I was hoping for a guitar strap or a cap, besides the tee shirt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, you know how many pairs of speakers I have bought? I was busy building custom cabs until things slowed down real bad. They should have given me a dozen shirts and I could have given them to you guys.


----------



## Micky

Yup, I know. I like Fender thin picks, Eminence RWB picks are medium.
I can't win for losing.

Maybe I can trade 'em for a Boss CE-1 or a Boss EQ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I guess you can see why these companies are so tight with their stuff. If they gave stuff away to everyone, they'd be broke.

However, when you are a user of some product, I think they should give you a discount on buying a tee shirt, say five buck. That would be fair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When the Musicians Friend discount store was still open, they had tee shirts lined up and it would say, "Free with your purchase of any ( ) items. Hell, I have like nine shirts from that place. When I bought my Explorer, it was winter time and I got a long sleeve, black Gibson shirt. I bought a Fender locking strap and got a real nice multi-colored Strat tee.

FREE CLOTHES WHEN YOU BUY OUR PRODUCTS. UNDERWEAR NOT INCLUDED.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Ok guys, I'm going to pick up a used 2x12 extension cab from a guy on Craigslist. We are meeting in a guitar center parking lot, so I shouldn't have any "my POD got stolen in a park stories. " 

It's a Crate (no starchild jokes) Crate-V212B

It has stock speakers, and they may be decent, so we shall see. 

Ideas for replacements?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well right now I have a very nice 412 Crate cab that was a top of the line cab. All birch plywood and it came with Celestion G12-70's. I sold the Celestions and have what I call my vintage blues speakers (very old alnico's) in it. To be blunt, after hearing the Black Powder/Tonespotter cab, I'm sort of spoiled on it. I guess I will try the Governors with the Texas Heat as that is a good combination. The Governors are a little hotter than the Texas Heat's. 

I would see what is in the Crate 212. Also, make sure it is well built. Some companies get cheesy on their 212 cabs. Remember that used speakers, even Celestions don't sell for much on CL or EBAY. 

Are you wanting to go with two 8's in series or or two 16's in parallel?


----------



## Gtarzan81

Well, I'm back and was NOT assaulted by Slash Rapper.
The cab is i in great condition, and looks like this:





That being said, it has "made for Crate speakers" in it. Havent plugged it in just yet, as I just got back. 

Marty, The output on the Class 5 is 16ohm, so I'd want something that matches up with that. If I rermember right, the cabinet has to match the ohms or be higher in ohms, otherwise stuff goes kablooey.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well are you saying it only has a single 16 ohm output?


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well are you saying it only has a single 16 ohm output?


Yes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as long as that Crate 212 is two 8 ohm speakers in series, you'll be good to go.

Most 212's nowadays are 8 ohms so you will want to check that. Most 212 cabs made for good tube amps are usually 16 ohms.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are cruising through and you have a question. Don't hesitate to post it.

I'm going to have some spare time to take the Private Jacks out of my 412 cab and exchange them for some Governors. If there ever was a poor pairing, I found it. Do not mix Texas Heats with Private Jacks. Yuck! Neither speaker has any bottom.


----------



## Gtarzan81

You going to be selling any of those 587.23567 speakers you bought?

Those private Jacks just might be a great fit in the 2x12 cab


----------



## joeellistsl

Marty. I don't believe I've ever seen you comment on the Cannabis Rex speaker. Have you tried them and if so, what are your thoughts? I actually love them. I have found a good combination is a Rex paired with the Wizard. I think they compliment each other very nicely. I play mostly blues and imo this combination works together very well.

I have also paired the Rex's with Vintage 30's. On paper, this seems like a good combination. The V30's are difficult to break in however and I'm going to have to be patient with them. I have to watch the amount of bass I EQ. The V 30's tend to give me a serious crackling noise, not fizzy but snap, crackle and pop.


----------



## Hillcountry

I have a 4x12 with two Wizards and Two Rex. I agree that it is a great pairing. It is way loud though -- great for outdoor gigs or low wattage amps. My two 50 watt heads through it is, well frankly, deafening. I have about 20 hours on the cab and it really rocks. The low end is almost overwhelming at times (well inside my study anyway) but it cuts through at outdoor and party gigs (which is mostly what I do). 

The Cannabis Rex itself is quite a smooth speaker. Sparkling is a good definition. I find that with a strat (which I tune D-D instead of E-E) they have the woody warmth I want. I find I can use the bridge pickup and finally get great tone that is not too shrill. With my LP, (tuned E-E) I get a pure 60's/70's rock tone. I find I rarely use effects now with those speakers. 

I also have a pair of Vintage 30's that I love. I hear what you are saying about that last sizzle in the V30. I feel like the pair of Wizards and CR don't have that sizzle on the high end. 

-Hillcountry


----------



## Gtarzan81

Ok, I'm looking for replacement speakers for the closed back 2x12 I just got. Initial ideas from reading the thread:

Option 1: 1 cannabis rex and 1 wizard (102 and 103db)

Option 2: 1 black powder and 1 tonespotter (100db)

What say you?

Note, right now the above pair would be $180 new, and the below would be $160 new.


----------



## joeellistsl

Hillcountry said:


> I have a 4x12 with two Wizards and Two Rex. I agree that it is a great pairing. It is way loud though -- great for outdoor gigs or low wattage amps. My two 50 watt heads through it is, well frankly, deafening. I have about 20 hours on the cab and it really rocks. The low end is almost overwhelming at times (well inside my study anyway) but it cuts through at outdoor and party gigs (which is mostly what I do).
> 
> The Cannabis Rex itself is quite a smooth speaker. Sparkling is a good definition. I find that with a strat (which I tune D-D instead of E-E) they have the woody warmth I want. I find I can use the bridge pickup and finally get great tone that is not too shrill. With my LP, (tuned E-E) I get a pure 60's/70's rock tone. I find I rarely use effects now with those speakers.
> 
> I also have a pair of Vintage 30's that I love. I hear what you are saying about that last sizzle in the V30. I feel like the pair of Wizards and CR don't have that sizzle on the high end.
> 
> -Hillcountry



I agree with your comments. Trying to control the high end is the reason I initially tried the CR's. They do a good job of that. The Wizard and to a slightly lesser degree the CR's are quite articulate. It is difficult to mask mistakes with them, that is for sure. I use nothing but humbuckers, so I bet with a Strat, that is even more apparent.

I have also been experimenting with NOS preamp tubes recently. They really warm up the tone and cut some of the overly bright tendencies of new tubes.


----------



## MM54

Man, I wish I had a graph for the speakers in my cab (They're OEM so I don't). They're great, and if one goes or I get another cab some time I have no idea if I'll be able to replace it


----------



## thrawn86

A guy near me is selling a Fender Bassman cab (it's obviously a newer one, nothing vintage and what not) and a Dean bass with it for $150. Wonder what kind of speakers it has? It's a 4x10.


----------



## Gtarzan81

thrawn86 said:


> A guy near me is selling a Fender Bassman cab (it's obviously a newer one, nothing vintage and what not) and a Dean bass with it for $150. Wonder what kind of speakers it has? It's a 4x10.



Guessing ri jensens.


----------



## Gtarzan81

How about 1 Wizard and 1 Man O war in a 2x12?


----------



## nedcronin

How the hell did I miss this thread? Well I'm here now! Currently I am using 4 English Celestion Vintage 30's in a Boogie Recto cab. As of late I have been so so with my tone. I posted on another thread I may be burnt out on the V30's. However, the cab is a few years old but never saw much action, and most probably was never cranked. So the jury is still out on these. My problem with them is the bottom end breaks up when I hit them hard. I'm only using a TSL 60 but the low end gets fizzy when the master gets above 4 or 5. I had been using the deep switch and turning that off helps keep the bottom tight but thins out my tone a little bit, gets sort of harsh. So I have been trying different EQ setups and what not. Haven't found the real sweet spot yet. Don't get me wrong, sounds great , but I'm needy of perfection!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> How about 1 Wizard and 1 Man O war in a 2x12?



If it were me, I would go with the Black Powder and Tonespotter. You could series wire them for a 16 ohm load in case you needed to use it with a 412 cab.

I'm so pleased with the 412 pairing of BP's and Tonespotters that I'm going to contact Eminence about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

nedcronin said:


> How the hell did I miss this thread? As of late I have been so so with my tone. I posted on another thread I may be burnt out on the V30's.



Welcome Ned. This is another one of my threads that I have put a lot of sweat into. It started a little slow, but it has picked up.

I will tell you that I'm not a fan of V30's. Now I do run a pair of Eminence Governors paired with Texas Heats and that is a good punchy metal sound. The Governors are the clone of V30's, but I think they sound better, not as harsh. Of course, I'm running them with the Heats.

I hope you get the matter addressed.


----------



## belch

Speaker porn

The latest addition to the family, a date matched octet of g12m 25's from 1970. 

They sound sooo sweeeet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dude that is porn. That has got to be some of the oldest Marshall cabs I've ever seen. They almost look like PA cabs for vocal use only. (Like a Shure PA Column.)

Thanks for sharing that. They're incredible.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> If it were me, I would go with the Black Powder and Tonespotter. You could series wire them for a 16 ohm load in case you needed to use it with a 412 cab.
> 
> I'm so pleased with the 412 pairing of BP's and Tonespotters that I'm going to contact Eminence about it.



Over a cannabis rex and wizard? 

Either way, I'll have an awesome 2x12 cab for about $300, all told.


----------



## belch

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dude that is porn. That has got to be some of the oldest Marshall cabs I've ever seen. They almost look like PA cabs for vocal use only. (Like a Shure PA Column.)



Glad you like em Marty, i couldn't believe my luck when they arrived.
These series of cabs were made between '67 & 72 i think, mine are 1970/71 model#1969 pa & designed for use with the marshall pa's of the time, these though were being used as part of a DJ's rig.
Here's the ebay listing ( make sure your sitting down when you see the sale price ) DISCO UNIT AND SPEAKERS on eBay (end time 04-Aug-10 21:28:07 BST)


----------



## solarburn

belch said:


> Speaker porn
> 
> The latest addition to the family, a date matched octet of g12m 25's from 1970.
> 
> They sound sooo sweeeet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

belch said:


> Glad you like em Marty, i couldn't believe my luck when they arrived.
> These series of cabs were made between '67 & 72 i think, mine are 1970/71 model#1969 pa & designed for use with the marshall pa's of the time, these though were being used as part of a DJ's rig.
> Here's the ebay listing ( make sure your sitting down when you see the sale price ) DISCO UNIT AND SPEAKERS on eBay (end time 04-Aug-10 21:28:07 BST)



Oh my Gawd! You stole them! You literally stole them. 62 Pounds Sterling? 

Well at least I guessed right about them being PA speakers. Does the mixer have any power, or is it a preamp only? Is it tube? Yeah, 1967-72 they were making the PA heads, but they had multiple inputs built in. I'm interested to hear more about the mixer when you get a chance.

This was probably the most historically significant find since I've been here. If you can, try to get a date on the system and/or the speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Over a cannabis rex and wizard?
> 
> Either way, I'll have an awesome 2x12 cab for about $300, all told.



If you need more overall volume than go with the CR and WIZ. I still say the BP and the Tonespotter is a better sound...but that's me hearing it.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you need more overall volume than go with the CR and WIZ. I still say the BP and the Tonespotter is a better sound...but that's me hearing it.


I found them for about $85 per on Musicians friend. 
I'm jonsin now. I have a serious GAS attack. 

As this is my first cab.....I'm considering selling the Class 5 and getting a lower watt head to plug into that 2x12.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you need more overall volume than go with the CR and WIZ. I still say the BP and the Tonespotter is a better sound...but that's me hearing it.


Also, did you email Eminence about the combo of BP and Tonespotter?

Not sure if you posted what the combo sounds like, but please refresh my memory sir.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Also, did you email Eminence about the combo of BP and Tonespotter?
> 
> Not sure if you posted what the combo sounds like, but please refresh my memory sir.



Well there are several posts where I described the tone. The core speaker in this pairing is the Black Powder. It sets the table so to speak. It has the tight low end and lower midrange. The highs are very nice and articulate with a peak at 2K and a roll of down to 5K. Frequency response is 70 to 5K.

The Tonespotter is a high watt clone of a G12-65. This is a speaker with a smooth sound. It has a dip at 1.5K and this may be why the speakers pair together well. I think I have realized that overlapping in the 2K region is a no-no. 

Together, these speakers produce above average lows and they are musical sounding lows. No flub. Of course the amp and cab play a big role in this. It's called damping factor. The ability of the amp to control the speakers movement. Also, my cab has been modified and it may have better bass because of it. However, this doesn't mean that you won't get good bass. 

Continuing on, the mids are superb with this pairing. Very sweet and full and the highs are right where you want them, without being an ice pick. I feel this pairing will sound good in a 212 or 412 configuration.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


>



Hey is this a divided 212 cab, or just one big box? If you can measure the inside dimensions you can take the H X W X D and divide it by 1728 to get your cubic feet of volume. Ideally, you want to have 1.25 to 1.5 cubic feet of space "per speaker."


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey is this a divided 212 cab, or just one big box? If you can measure the inside dimensions you can take the H X W X D and divide it by 1728 to get your cubic feet of volume. Ideally, you want to have 1.25 to 1.5 cubic feet of space "per speaker."



According to the formua I have 1.86 cubic feet per speaker

That is: 20.75 in/52.7 cm x 28.25 in/71.8 cm x
11.00 in/27.9 cm divided by 1728 and divided by 2 for the 2 speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow, that is a fat box. If there isn't any insulation in there, I would recommend about a two-inch thick piece long enough to do the bottom and both sides. This will tighten the low end of the cab and prevent boominess and standing waves.


----------



## Gtarzan81

What kinda insulation? I'm fresh out of asbestos.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I think the narrowest it comes in is 15 and a 1/2-inch. I like the yellow fiberglass. I think it absorbs better. Of course, it's nastier to work with. The white Dacron will work too. You might try a home improvement store to see if they have any damaged rolls and you could buy a small piece. You might have to use your imagination on where to locate a small piece. If you know a guy that does handyman work, he may have a piece.

This is the type of insulation used in walls and crawl spaces.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

This is going back a ways, but... I am still just fascinated by this concept... Has anyone out there tried these yet?



joshuaaewallen said:


> By Marc Johnson for The Tone King
> 
> For those of you who aren’t in the know about Big Tony, he is a guitar player and the Senior Lab Tech at Eminence Speakers. In addition to being with Eminence for over 10 years, he also writes columns for players who want to know how speakers work. While other guys are just trying to sell you something for the sake of profit, Tony and the folks at Eminence prefer to educate people on how gear actually works, and you know The Tone King is all about the education. Well, our buddy Big Tony and Eminence Speakers have come up with something that just may revolutionize speaker technology. Just like you, at TTK, we are always cranking our amps up. And, like you, when we go on the road, the first thing we hear from the sound guy is “Turn that damn thing down!” We know that our best sound lies at ten, but we are condemned to the hell of keeping our amps at low volumes.
> Eminence’s Flux Density Modulation (FDM) Technology is an all-analog mechanism that is actually built into the speaker itself. Without using attenuation circuits, FDM Technology keeps the signal path as unaffected as possible. The dial on the back of the speaker mechanically manipulates the flux path and relative densities within a loudspeaker motor structure. The FDM knob can attenuate the signal up to 9db. To anyone who has used attenuators before, generally that’s about as far as you can go before you really start noticing a significant (i.e. bad) change in your tone. According to their website, www.Eminence.com/fdm, Eminence’s FDM technology will be available in two of their speaker lines, the Patriot and the Red Coat series, and two different models, the Maverick and the ReignMaker.
> In addition to attenuating your signal, the FDM will also allow you to accentuate the tones that you already get from your amp. When you add more attenuation, your tone will get warmer as your volume goes down, and when you remove attenuation, your tone will get brighter as you get louder. This feature will give players the ability to actually manipulate the characteristics of the speaker, providing them with more options and dynamics.
> Maybe, once we get our hands on them, we’ll do another tutorial on speaker installation and show you how to pop them in your favorite cabinet. Until then, TheToneKing.com is looking forward to taking these out for a test drive as well as seeing what else Big Tony and Eminence has in store for us down the road.
> ​


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Josh, one page back I had contacted Anthony at Eminence about this very question, because I wanted to know for sure myself. Here is the run down.
> 
> Man O War is indeed our version of the G12T-75.
> Our version of the V30 is the Governor.
> Greenback is Private Jack.
> Alnico Blue is Red Fang.
> G12-65 is Tonespotter.
> G12H30 is the Wizard.
> 
> Now I will say this. I have MAN O WAR's in the TSL122. I feel from using both that the MOW's are more crunchy sounding and are even more aggressive. This probably has to do with a larger magnet and higher power handling. G12T-75's tend to loose definition at higher volume and some people like this "out of control train wreck" sound. I like my speakers to stay tight and crunchy regardless of volume.
> 
> Just so you know, I have purchased all the above speakers plus 4 pairs of Patriot speakers and I am involved in testing them as I type this up. I just bought a 1960 cab and I think I am going to load it with Black Powder and Texas Heat. Just their names implies fire and explosions.



Ok... It's late and my brain is obviously not functioning since I'm sure I've passed the answer up 10-15 times on this thread w/out seeing it, ( I guess that's what I get for digging up old crap)(please forgive my half inebriated drowsy bout of stupidity) but...

Where do Patriots, Red Coats, Mavericks, and ReignMakers, fit into the list of tonal comparisons?


----------



## belch

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh my Gawd! You stole them! You literally stole them. 62 Pounds Sterling?
> 
> Well at least I guessed right about them being PA speakers. Does the mixer have any power, or is it a preamp only? Is it tube? Yeah, 1967-72 they were making the PA heads, but they had multiple inputs built in. I'm interested to hear more about the mixer when you get a chance.
> 
> This was probably the most historically significant find since I've been here. If you can, try to get a date on the system and/or the speakers.



Yep £62 gbp, i gave the seller an extra tenner though to make a good job of packing the speakers as these were really for collection only , i live 400miles away so arranging my own courier was best option.

All the speakers are dated mc1 ( 1st dec '70 ) & are original to the cab 1221 chassis with 29 102 003 pulsonic cones, marshall seemed to have used there own speaker badge on the pa cab's from this era.

As for the turntable unit this dates from late 70's, it's a cloud series 8 mono twin deck with belt driven garrard turntables, 100 ish watts ss output into 4ohm using a fairly hefty tx to drive the output board. It got a bit banged up in transit & didn't work when i got it, taking it apart i find i had to replace the 18-0-18 mains tx for the preamp board ( fortunately i had one laying around). My first thought was to gut it for parts as there's lots of mullard tropicals, jack sockets, useful switches etc but after firing it up with some early deep purple vinyl on the deck it took me right back to youthclub days of the 70's & i haven't the heart to break it up now. Don't think it's worth a great deal of money so might just keep it for a while for shits & giggles till the missus makes me shift it, after all it's not small at 31"x21"x9" & 55lbs


----------



## MartyStrat54

Fantastic history. Those are mono phonographs. Now that is old. I rember my sister's first Beatles albums were all Monophonic HiFi. Whatever that meant.

It's hard to believe my "other" stereo system is 32 years old. Damn I'm getting old.

Well I truly enjoy your post. Great to have you and I'm glad that you had a little 18-0-18 handy to fix the DJ mixer. Good for you. 

Don't be a stranger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Also, did you email Eminence about the combo of BP and Tonespotter?



Quoted that, but failed to answer it. Yes I did. Awaiting their reply.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Where do Patriots, Red Coats, Mavericks, and ReignMakers, fit into the list of tonal comparisons?



I'm not going to spend the money on a Maverick or a Reign Maker. However, I will say that if you run them in a 212 and take the 9dB cut, that is doing almost as good of a volume reduction as any power soak. Most power soaks are able to go 12dB. So these two speakers are pretty impressive. The only drawback is if you used them in a sealed back, you would have to know your setting, because once they are in, they are in.

Yes there are posts with info on how I feel certain speakers sound. I experimented with a lot of speakers and spent quite a bit of money on them

The best thing to do is ask about a specific speaker and if I have tested them, I will give you a report.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm not going to spend the money on a Maverick or a Reign Maker. However, I will say that if you run them in a 212 and take the 9dB cut, that is doing almost as good of a volume reduction as any power soak. Most power soaks are able to go 12dB. So these two speakers are pretty impressive. The only drawback is if you used them in a sealed back, you would have to know your setting, because once they are in, they are in.
> 
> Yes there are posts with info on how I feel certain speakers sound. I experimented with a lot of speakers and spent quite a bit of money on them
> 
> The best thing to do is ask about a specific speaker and if I have tested them, I will give you a report.



I'd be interested in the more strongly "British" influenced end of the tonal spectrum...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Eminence’s FDM technology...*

Swapping and trying different speakers is by no means an inexpensive experiment, but I will say, that as a non-gigging player, these have me more exited about trying different speakers than anything I've seen or read about before.​
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWrXpI_SSDY"]YouTube - NAMM 2010 - Eminence[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1LCUOqJBuY"]YouTube - Anthony Lucas Eminence FDM Speaker - Billy Penn 300guitars.com[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpWqwCMZ1mo"]YouTube - Eminence Flux Density Modulation Speaker Demo - Billy Penn 300[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKRRcfsRIlg"]YouTube - Chris Poland test drives the new Eminence FDM speaker[/ame]

http://eminence.com/pdf/reignmaker.pdf

http://eminence.com/pdf/maverick.pdf

Eminence - The leader in guitar speaker tone. Upgrades for Celestion, Jensen and Fane.

Eminance' YouTube Channel: 
YouTube - eminencespeaker's Channel​
​


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's good to see my buddy Anthony Lucas (he just sent me a tee shirt). Yeah in the right application, I think that would be killer. Say for a bedroom or a smaller room. If you had a 212 open back, you could dial in your volume.


----------



## Micky

Those are exactly what I am looking for in a 2X12 combo. This way I could get a 50 watt combo and dial it back for home use, and crank it for the wide open spaces.

I am still yearning for a 2266c with a couple of those.
I would settle for an AVT275...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would make me a 212 cab with two four inch holes (or big enough to get a hand through). Then it would be more like a ported cab instead of an open back. You could still adjust the speakers and have better low end.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's good to see my buddy Anthony Lucas (he just sent me a tee shirt). Yeah in the right application, I think that would be killer. Say for a bedroom or a smaller room. If you had a 212 open back, you could dial in your volume.



Thought ya might like that.



Micky said:


> Those are exactly what I am looking for in a 2X12 combo. This way I could get a 50 watt combo and dial it back for home use, and crank it for the wide open spaces...





MartyStrat54 said:


> I would make me a 212 cab with two four inch holes (or big enough to get a hand through). Then it would be more like a ported cab instead of an open back. You could still adjust the speakers and have better low end.



This sorta thing might just be enough to steer me away from the Vintage 30's I've come to love...


----------



## Micky

I have been trying to get away from Celestion stuff for years.
I had Jensens in my fender amps and they were OK.
Then I put some Eminence 12's in an Ampeg cab and was amazed.

I have been loyal to Eminence ever since.

Sure I love Altecs and JBL's, but if I have to purchase a speaker, it will be an Eminence.

Suits me fine if I never play thru a Celestion ever again. They just cannot compare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I like JBL and Altec too. Most of the good stuff is costly to recone, if the kit is still available. Altec has actually turned over all reconing to a company in Oklahoma City. They also make authentic Altec speakers like the 417. Again, they are about $300 each. 

Back in the 80's, Altec, EV and JBL ruled and kits for all of their product lines were available. Now you are lucky to be able to get any of these speakers reconed except for Altec.

http://www.altecpro.com/support/professionals.htm


----------



## nedcronin

Hi Marty, I might have an oppurtunity to do an even swap, my Boogie recto cab with 4 V30's for an old JCM 800 1960B cab with 4 GT65's.......what do you think?


----------



## Micky

nedcronin said:


> Hi Marty, I might have an oppurtunity to do an even swap, my Boogie recto cab with 4 V30's for an old JCM 800 1960B cab with 4 GT65's.......what do you think?


 I'm not Marty (thank God!) but I say DO IT!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not (Micky), but I say do it too!

Those G12-65's are probably broken in nice and they are so much better than a V30. The 65's are sometimes referred to as a Greenback on steroids. I say that some of that might be true, but for the most part, the 65's have their own tone. 

I would love to score and old cab with 65's in it.


----------



## nedcronin

Well I will check it out tomorrow, problem is it's at Guitar center, and I already heard a bunch of jive on the phone, like "well I don't know what we will give you for your cab"....
My cab is mint and twice as sellable as this one which looks a little beat up, so I intend to trade even,,, I won't plunk down a single dollar to do the deal. We'll see what happens. I just jammed tonight and the Boogie cab cuts through the mix pretty well. Unless this cab checks out and all 4 speakers are solid, and also the trade is even, I will have to pass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it sounds like you know how you want to handle this.

Best of luck on your deal. Post and let us know what you end up with.


----------



## nedcronin

Well I drove out to GC today....The cab I was interested in was in terrible cosmetic shape, tears everywhere on the tolex, dents & dings and chips on the handle assemblies, big tear in the speaker cloth with a hideous mend job on it. They wouldn't let me take one of the handles off to use a mirror and a flashlight to verify the speakers, so I had to assume they were GT 65's by the 260 watt rating on the back of the cab. The only head they would let me try with the cab with was a MG100. So I waited about 20 minutes for this total tool to find a speaker cable, after I had to insist that you CANNOT use a guitar cable for a speaker cable. I asked him to play a guitar just chunk some low E chords so I could listen to each speaker to make sure none were blown. He didn't know how to play guitar so another tool came over who could play but insisted that the cab had greenbacks in it...."because all 1960 series cabs have Greenbacks".......whatever dude. The speakers were ok. So then I grabbed the cheesey epiphone that wouldn't stay in tune and tried this cab out with the MG up about half. Even with the MG, the speakers sounded GREAT! I mean exactly the tone I like in a speaker. Mello highs, great low end and very musical smooth mids. So I decide I'm interested. Then I waited around for another 20 minutes for them to tell me they would only give me 350 credit towards it for my MINT boogie cab. And they wanted 500 bucks for this crusty old Marshall. So I hauled my ass out of there straight away. I hate Guitar Center. But I can see some Tonespotters in my future.......I loved those GT65's.


----------



## 00jett

Dude thats Bruuuuuuttttttaaaaaalllllll.... They sould give at least 500 for the boogie....


----------



## Micky

I knew that was gonna happen...

Keep looking. You will find one reasonably priced somewhere!


----------



## nedcronin

Yeah I know their game so I wasn't too surprised, but I would think that my boogie cab would have been alot easier for them to sell than that Marshall. At least to anyone but me!!! Ha Ha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

nedcronin said:


> Even with the MG, the speakers sounded GREAT! I mean exactly the tone I like in a speaker. Mellow highs, great low end and very musical smooth mids. I can see some Tonespotters in my future.......I loved those GT65's.



You just gave a perfect description of a G12-65.

I will say that the Tonespotters are very close and can handle a little more wattage.

Guitar Center should call themselves the "Tool Shed."


----------



## nedcronin

No shit everytime I go there I leave unhappy. I never buy anything there except used gear that I'm on the lookout for, I buy everything else from my local shop where they value your business and actually know the products. oh well.......Looks like Warehouse makes a GT65 clone, anyone tried those out? Now I've got speaker GAS really bad.


----------



## nedcronin

Hey Marty, I just saw an ad on the avatar site for Celestion "super 65" speakers? Have you ever heard of them? Anyway they have them on blowout for 100 bucks for 4 of them.....Can they be the same as GT65's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No, they are different.

The cheap one's are these. They are from the Celestion "Originals" series.

Celestion | Guitar Loudspeakers

The real one's. From Celestion's "Heritage" series.

Celestion | Guitar Loudspeakers

The Supers are made in China and the real 65's are made in England.


----------



## MartyStrat54

nedcronin said:


> Looks like Warehouse makes a GT65 clone, anyone tried those out? Now I've got speaker GAS really bad.



Well, I think the Eminence is closer to the real 65 than the WGS ET65. I looked at all of the specs and the Eminence is very close to the G12-65. The ET65 has a resonance frequency of 99Hz. The G12-65 is 85Hz and the Tonespotter is 88Hz. That higher free air resonance is going to affect the low end response of the speaker, especially in a sealed cab.


----------



## solarburn

nedcronin said:


> Well I drove out to GC today....The cab I was interested in was in terrible cosmetic shape, tears everywhere on the tolex, dents & dings and chips on the handle assemblies, big tear in the speaker cloth with a hideous mend job on it. They wouldn't let me take one of the handles off to use a mirror and a flashlight to verify the speakers, so I had to assume they were GT 65's by the 260 watt rating on the back of the cab. The only head they would let me try with the cab with was a MG100. So I waited about 20 minutes for this total tool to find a speaker cable, after I had to insist that you CANNOT use a guitar cable for a speaker cable. I asked him to play a guitar just chunk some low E chords so I could listen to each speaker to make sure none were blown. He didn't know how to play guitar so another tool came over who could play but insisted that the cab had greenbacks in it...."because all 1960 series cabs have Greenbacks".......whatever dude. The speakers were ok. So then I grabbed the cheesey epiphone that wouldn't stay in tune and tried this cab out with the MG up about half. Even with the MG, the speakers sounded GREAT! I mean exactly the tone I like in a speaker. Mello highs, great low end and very musical smooth mids. So I decide I'm interested. Then I waited around for another 20 minutes for them to tell me they would only give me 350 credit towards it for my MINT boogie cab. And they wanted 500 bucks for this crusty old Marshall. So I hauled my ass out of there straight away. I hate Guitar Center. But I can see some Tonespotters in my future.......I loved those GT65's.



Man I am so glad you didn't trade your cab for that shit AND especially at GC. They will rob you blind for any kind of trade in value and then turn around and sell your cab for more than the one you wanted to trade it for. You can get more for your Boogie cab elsewhere. Bastids!!!!!!

The Tone Spotters sound like they may be a good choice to the GT-65's. You'll find what you need. Keep look'n and F' GC for trade in's.


----------



## nedcronin

Thanks Marty, I had a feeling the super 65's were too good to be true. I think I may keep this boogie cab and load it up with tonespotters. I must say this cab is built like a tank and the only things I don't like about it is the speakers, and it weighs like 120 lbs.....And I am ALL done with the hosers at GC


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, used speakers don't fetch much money, so keep that in mind. A set of four Tonespotters is going to run you around $320. I usually buy from Parts Express, but you can compare their prices with other retail outlets. Make sure you get free shipping.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty what would be a good EV12L clone or similar to its tone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty what would be a good EV12L clone or similar to its tone?



I got the perfect pick for you. It is the Eminence Delta Pro 12A. CAST FRAME, 400 Watt RMS and very close to an EV12L for only $110 each. It can be used for bass or electric guitar, or PA. Very flat frequency response. Sounds somewhat like a smoother Red, White and Blues speaker. Takes EQing really well. This speaker will out perform a EV12L for a lot less money. 

I have them and I have tried them. The only drawback it they weigh over 16 pounds apiece. Of course they are 4 pounds lighter than an EV12L.


----------



## BluesRocker

A 412 of Evs will make a body builder out of you. I may have to try 2 of them and see how they hold up.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You gonna try the Delta Pros?


----------



## MM54

I'm finally getting around to making that speaker box for my shop today. One problem has arisen:

I don't have a 2 3/4" holesaw, nor the money to get one. My math says that the area of the hole would be 5.939 square inches. Would it work the same if I left a say, 2"x3" rectangle, or does the roundness of the hole make a difference? Would it better if it was, say, 2 3/8" or 2 1/2" square?


----------



## chuckharmonjr

OK. Mission No.1 accomplished. Got the Crate cab for 50 bucks. Damn that thing looks aweful. BUT...it had 4 perfect G12M-70's in it which are now in my MG cab. Man oh man did that improve things. A little thin and reedy like Marty predicted but the deep switch and a little EQ tweak helped that alot. Still not a 1960 by any means, but a tremendous improvement and it still fits in my car...lol. I might fix the old crate up a little, put the chinese celestions in it, and recover my money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I'm finally getting around to making that speaker box for my shop today. One problem has arisen:
> 
> I don't have a 2 3/4" holesaw, nor the money to get one. My math says that the area of the hole would be 5.939 square inches. Would it work the same if I left a say, 2"x3" rectangle, or does the roundness of the hole make a difference? Would it better if it was, say, 2 3/8" or 2 1/2" square?



Yes. I designed this cab so all you had to do was cut a hole. However, a triangle, square or rectangle will work just fine. 6 inches would be fine for a total hole size.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes. I designed this cab so all you had to do was cut a hole. However, a triangle, square or rectangle will work just fine. 6 inches would be fine for a total hole size.



Awesome, I got most of it done today and should be finishing up tomorrow 

I need to find some old fabric around here or something to put over the front so the speakers don't get full of dust and crap from being in my shop


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well make sure the cloth is acoustically transparent. I'm getting a little anxious to see how they sound.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well make sure the cloth is acoustically transparent. I'm getting a little anxious to see how they sound.



Well right now the little thingies covering them is what was in the organ over them, but it looks horrible and is basically a ragged square of gold fabric glued onto the wood bit. I may be ordering grillcloth for something else soon if I get money, maybe I'll use it.

What I'm wondering though is if I should take the old crappy stuff off or not. It looks HORRIBLE (and when I go to paint the front of the box, if that's what I decide to do to it, it'll have to go somewhere). Bah.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well when people post up wanting to build a cabinet, I always remind them about all the other stuff you need to do besides building the box. Hell, if all I had to do was build the box, it would be great. Someone puts the carpet or Tolex on and another guy puts the hardware on and another guy loads the speakers. Yeah, that would be nice. Just think what that cab would cost if you had to pay those guys?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You hear Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep, I'm here.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well we were talking about the Governor and the Swamp Thang.


----------



## MartyStrat54

We started talking speakers and moved it over here. The Governor and Swamp Thang are a fatter sounding pairing versus the Texas Heat. I don't think I would like the Heats on their own.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What sound do you get out of the Cannabis Rex?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well say you pair the CRex with the Swamp Thangs. It going to be a slightly darker sound. It would be a great pairing for say Gary Moore style playing.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Knowing what I play, what do you recommend?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would say use the Man 'O War and Swamp Thangs. This would be an aggressive metal sound with the Swamp Thangs adding some bottom.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I don't know the Man O War. Is it a clone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it is. It's a clone of a G12T-75, but again, it has it own voicing. These speakers can stand on their own. They are very aggressive. The articulation of the mids and highs are tight and focused. They have adequate bass and it is tight.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well that sounds interesting. I will keep them in mind. Thanks for your time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem, Shawn. I'll see you around.


----------



## thrawn86

Which ones are the Governor's platformed off of, or what are their characteristics? Somebody's got a Fender combo amp on the cheap up here and says he swapped the stock speakers out for those.


----------



## Micky

thrawn86 said:


> Which ones are the Governor's platformed off of, or what are their characteristics? Somebody's got a Fender combo amp on the cheap up here and says he swapped the stock speakers out for those.


 You can check all of their stuff at:
Eminence - The Leader in guitar speakers, bass speakers, and pro audio loudspeakers. Great upgrades for JBL, Celestion, Jensen, and Fane.
They have great spec sheets in .pdf format.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Which ones are the Governor's platformed off of, or what are their characteristics? Somebody's got a Fender combo amp on the cheap up here and says he swapped the stock speakers out for those.



THRAWN-The Governors are the clones of V30's. By themselves they have adequate bass, but are more powerful in the mids, with a good dose of high end.

They sound best when played in a band situation, They really cut through the mix.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, does a JBL 128H mean anything special to you? I was just given four speaker cabinets, two JBL L112 and two RCA of a similar style. The 128H's are dry rotted around the edges (the foam bit is all crumpled) but otherwise seem totally fine; I have two of them.

There's also two 12" speakers in the RCA cabs that don't have much to tell what they are printed on the back that seem in perfect condition.

Edit: I found refoam kits for the JBL's for like $30, do you think it would be worth it/is it something one can do without special training?


----------



## Hillcountry

Marty,
What's the consensus on the Legend 1258's? I just got a pair for cheap, and I was hoping they had an old Fender vibe. I plan on pairing them with either a 5e5a circuit or a 5f6a circuit.
-Hillcountry


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Hey Marty, does a JBL 128H mean anything special to you?
> 
> Edit: I found refoam kits for the JBL's for like $30, do you think it would be worth it/is it something one can do without special training?



Well the 128H is a home HiFi woofers. Those L112's were pretty nice in their day. Still a great speaker system.

There are several videos on refoaming a speaker. You have to carefully cut the dust cap off to reuse it, unless you have a new cap. (Mark your old cap with a line so you can match it up later.) The voice coil is shimmed with a thin plastic shim made from film negatives or a two liter pop bottle. High quality thin paper will work as well. The shim should be snug, but should come out with just moderate force. The old foam is scrapped off with MEK solvent and a razor blade. After it is cleaned, allow the solvent to dry. Then you need to use some latex glue to replace the surround. It goes on white, but dries clear. After it has set up a bit, put more glue down and replace the (saved) ring gasket set. Turn upside down and let dry overnight. Next day, pull the shim and test the speaker for rubs. If good, then reglue the dust cap back on, or use a new cap.

The latex and dust cap glues are available in small squirt bottles from where you buy the surrounds. Are you using Orange County Speakers? I've done business with them over the years.


----------



## MM54

Cool. I still need to pull them back out and inspect to make sure there isn't other damage (to the cone itself, etc) before I find the foam kits. I just googled it and it seemed that about $30 was the average price for stuff to do the pair. Once I get some money I suppose I'll fix them up.

Any idea on the RMS rating on them and if they would sound good/great/horrible as a guitar speaker?

I pulled the 12" on one of the RCA cabinets, what are the odds these speakers are decent? There wasn't much on the back. I took a picture but of course my phone seems to have replaced it with a black page. I remember some numbers, and wondering why it was 7 ohms 

(Also, the box I'm making is coming along nicely. I removed the old crappy fabric, flipped it over, and used it on the other side. It's interesting looking if nothing else. I should finish it tonight and, once the glues dries, know how it sounds tomorrow!)


----------



## Micky

I believe they are 100 watt speakers.
Parts-Express has the surround kit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> Marty,
> What's the consensus on the Legend 1258's? I just got a pair for cheap, and I was hoping they had an old Fender vibe. I plan on pairing them with either a 5e5a circuit or a 5f6a circuit.
> -Hillcountry



I have used them and they are some of the great "original" Eminence's. They've been making them for a long time and for good reason. A lot of people use them. They are an American flavored speaker. Great vintage tone. Should pair up nice to an old Fender. The top end on this speaker is 4KHz. It will warm up a bright amp. These are 60's, early 70's sounding. More rock and roll than rock or hard rock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt-The 128H speakers are woofers. They are not guitar speakers. Hear is all the info on the JBL112 from JBL Archives.

1980 L112 CENTURY II


----------



## MM54

Thanks for the link, Marty 

Also, I finished building that speaker box today, put it all together, and it sounds GREAT! No more tin-can-ness that I can't EQ out and there's actually low end, too  I stood the box up on end (I had planned it sitting the other way, but this way is more convenient) and can set the amp right on top, so I got a table back, too.


----------



## MM54

That was a pretty good read. It makes me want to get a decent amplifier to put them... somewhere to listen to 

A lot of it makes me think they're just the smaller version of the L150's in my room, which kick ass like none other. They look just like them, too. 

(They're also heavy like them. That article says the L112s are 55 pounds, I believe that. I carried my L150's up the stairs to my room on my own, they're probably 75 pounds a piece at least, and really big and awkward to hold )

Edit: Here's the L150's: http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1979-l150.htm


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem, Matt. Good to hear that the box is a success.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Marty, out of curiosity, where do you stand on the effect of the magnet's weight on the performance of the speaker? Being a child of the 70's and, hence, the Bigger-Is-Better school of thought, I've tried to get some straight talk on that issue, but it's hard to come by. I'd be very interested to hear what you've got to say on the matter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's a great question and it is very similar to guitar pickups and the magnets they use.

The most common are ALNICO, Ceramic and Neodymium. ALNICO is made in several forms such a ALNICO 2 or 5.

Neo has the strongest magnetic field. So a very small magnet is used on say a 125 watt RMS speaker.

ALNICO was very popular, but it is expensive to manufacture. All the killer JBL and Altec speakers used ALNICO in their heyday. 

Ceramic is the cheapest to manufacture, but it is also the heaviest. An EV12L or a JBL E-120 are both 20 pound speakers. Four would be 80 pounds! Ceramic magnets can be made in any shape and this is why they are popular. 

If it was 1972, I would say that the speaker with the biggest magnet would handle the most power, but it's not 1972 anymore. There have been huge strides made in magnet technologies. Electric motors are small nowadays thanks to small, powerful magnets. So nowadays, when I see a neodymium speaker, I say, "That speaker is a beast!"

I will say that if a speaker has a big ceramic magnet, it is a powerhouse speaker. It's only drawback is its weight. 

One last thing. Different magnets result in slightly differing tones. Some older guys will only use ALNICO speakers, because they claim they can hear a better tone. Some of this has been found to be true.


----------



## MM54

Quick question.

What do you think that, once refoamed, a pair of JBL L112 cabinets is worth? I'm hoping that the refoaming is all they need. I can't find much about them, value-wise :/


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the value depends on how well you fix the surrounds. A poor job will take money off of the top. 

Those L112's were pretty expensive. You might be able to get $600 for the pair if the cabinets are in good shape and the grille is all there. 

Most of the time, it's just bad surrounds. If the rest of the speakers are okay, you might have a mini goldmine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Remember, Alan sold some speakers he got cheap for $$$. I believe he did the recone and got his parts from Orange County speaker.


----------



## MM54

You mentioned them (Orange County Speaker) before, do you have a link I could check out?

I plan to be VERY careful and take my time on the foam. It'll be the difference between a glorious pair of cabinets or a couple cabs with a crappy woofer


----------



## MM54

Nevermind on the link, I found them. $30 for the refoam kit seems very good. If and when I order this, will you be willing to answer my stupid questions as I go about replacing the foam?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I gave step by step instructions on some other post several months ago. They should have made a Sticky out of it. The best thing is to call me if you hit a snag. I can give you my phone number later, if you don't already have it.


----------



## MM54

Cool.

There are a lot of informational things about it out there, but I always seem to come up with stupid problems that guides don't cover when I do stuff. I don't know how long it'll be until I can get the foam kits, so I'll get back to you about it then


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem. I'll be glad to help ya out.


----------



## Micky

I re-foamed some Cerwin-Vega's a while back and it really was easy.
First time I had ever tried something like that. They came out great.
The spiders were solid and I didn't need to use shims on the voice coil.
Didn't need to remove the dust caps either.

It worked so well that I tackled a pair of Bose 901's...

I think you will be fine, take your time and it will turn out great.


----------



## Hillcountry

OK, I loaded the Eminence Legend 1258s into a 2x12 open back cab and I am running My JTM-45 clone with 6l6 tubes through it. WOW these speakers are great! They have an outstanding chimey tone to them. They are very different than the GB128. There is a Jensen vibe to them and they reminded me of the Celestion AlNiCo Golds. They compliment 6l6 tubes better than KT66 and make for a really nice sounding setup. 

This also marks my transition to all Eminence Speakers as I have sold the Vintage 30s. The Legends GB128s sounded better to me with my other amp...so I am now a user of:

Legend 125 X2
Legend GB128 X2
Ramrod X2
Cannabis Rex X2
Wizard X2

And a Lone weber AlNiCo Texas 15 in a tweed Pro.
Perhaps time to try the Eminence Legend 15?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Way to go. You found happiness with the Big E. I hear that Legend 15 is really sweet.

There is also the Red Coat Big Ben and the Patriot Commonwealth. The Commonwealth is a 4 ohm speaker.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Marty, how do you think a 2x12 with the Tonespotter and black powder would sound with a 1987x voiced amp?

I'm looking at getting one custom made with 2xel84s instead of the el34's, and it would be roughly 14-20 watts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How big is the 212 cab? If it's over sized, I would suggest some Dacron or fiberglass fill to reduce standing waves and to tighten the low end up. You don't want a boomy sounding cab with this pair of speakers.

That being said, they should sound killer with that little amp. You're still going to get a lot of volume out of this rig.

1W=103dB
2W=106dB
4W=109dB
8W=112dB
16W=115dB
20W=115.3dB


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> How big is the 212 cab? If it's over sized, I would suggest some Dacron or fiberglass fill to reduce standing waves and to tighten the low end up. You don't want a boomy sounding cab with this pair of speakers.
> 
> That being said, they should sound killer with that little amp. You're still going to get a lot of volume out of this rig.
> 
> 1W=103dB
> 2W=106dB
> 4W=109dB
> 8W=112dB
> 16W=115dB
> 20W=115.3dB



Holy Crap that's going to be loud! 
It's the 1.82 cubic feet per speaker Crate I was telling you about.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> How big is the 212 cab? If it's over sized, I would suggest some Dacron or fiberglass fill to reduce standing waves and to tighten the low end up. You don't want a boomy sounding cab with this pair of speakers.
> 
> That being said, they should sound killer with that little amp. You're still going to get a lot of volume out of this rig.
> 
> 1W=103dB
> 2W=106dB
> 4W=109dB
> 8W=112dB
> 16W=115dB
> 20W=115.3dB



For S&G, what would a fullstack of those with a cranked 100W head do, dB-wise? (We'll assume the cranked 100W head is doing... 120W or so?)

*Also*
I'll be getting to the bank sometime next week, hopefully Monday (Maybe tomorrow, now that I think of it), to put in money to get the kits to repair the surrounds on those speakers. My current question is: what's left on the back of the speaker cone, does that all need to be scrubbed off? I got most of it off the basket earlier today when I pulled them apart, but the stuff on the cones will be tricky if it all has to come off (obviously the lose stuff's gotta go).


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's where you use MEK solvent and a fresh exacto blade. You let the MEK soak in and then you scrape of a little at a time. I would suggest rolling your finger under the cone and trying to remove as much as you can in a dry removal. (Put the edge of the cone between your thumb and index finger and then friction rub the old foam off.)


----------



## nedcronin

Hi Marty, as far as your opinion goes, would you be happier playing through an old, beat up 1960b cab with GT 65's or a new avatar cab with g-12H30's????Or last but not least a marshall 1960TV cab w greenbacks?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> For S&G, what would a fullstack of those with a cranked 100W head do, dB-wise? (We'll assume the cranked 100W head is doing... 120W or so?)



With a 412 cab of these, you could exceed 123dB with a cranked 100 watt amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Holy Crap that's going to be loud!
> It's the 1.82 cubic feet per speaker Crate I was telling you about.



Check to see if they have already installed some sort of fill in the cab. If not, I strongly recommend it regardless of your speaker choice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

nedcronin said:


> Hi Marty, as far as your opinion goes, would you be happier playing through an old, beat up 1960b cab with GT 65's or a new avatar cab with g-12H30's????Or last but not least a marshall 1960TV cab w greenbacks?



Well I don't like real beat up stuff, but I do like the 65's the best. They sound really good for classic rock, hot blues and even jazz. Next would be the H30's. Greenbacks to me are somewhat thin sounding and some people call this a warm speaker. I've tried them and they didn't work for me.


----------



## nedcronin

Yeah that 1960B cab is pretty haggard, seems ok structurally however and it sounded great. Will see what happens I think I'll check it out again tomorrow or Monday.


----------



## Walkingmanblues

Hello all, been lurking here for a while--thanks everyone for all I've gleaned from your posts--but I wanted to put some questions to the forum regarding breaking in a new set of speakers using a Test Tone Generator (TTG).

1st, I recently received two new speakers--Eminence Governor and Swamp Thang--that I'm setting up in a DSL401 combo and 1x12 cab respectively. What I want to do is use the software TTG on my laptop to drive the amp and thus break in the new drivers. Is this possible? I've read elsewhere that hooking up other digital devices, say, like an iPod, can wreck havoc on the preamp circuitry of the amp (have no idea if this is true). I'm quite fond of the amp--and the laptop, too, for that matter--and don't want to risk either

2nd, assuming that this is possible, what settings should I use on both the TTG and the amp for optimal results? I've attached an image of the TTG interface to help with this. I know next to nothing about this stuff, so feel free to answer as if you were speaking to an idiot/child. You know, kinda walk me through it from hooking up to finished product.

Thanks. And thanks again for everything I've already learned from everyone here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Real quick, yes it will work. That tone generator has an analog output. You can run it into the preamp or the front end of the amp. (If you have a choice of low or high output, go with low.) Use a mono setting, 75Hz SINE wave. Do not use square wave. Also, do you know what the frequency response is of the pink noise. You should try that as well. Usually pink noise is 200Hz to 4KHz. If so, that won't work. The main thing is to use a low enough frequency to stretch the suspension. The volume doesn't have to be that high. Turn it on and adjust the volume until you see the cones visibly moving.


----------



## Walkingmanblues

Thanks, Marty. Not sure what you are asking about the Pink Noise? You think I should be using that? Or I should not? Presumably the 75Hz signal is NOT pink noise?

As for the low/high output...are you referring to the amplitude adjustment? Or the sampling rate of the output signal (say, 8000 vs. 44,100Hz)?

Sorry if these are stupid questions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Walkingmanblues said:


> Thanks, Marty. Not sure what you are asking about the Pink Noise? You think I should be using that? Or I should not? Presumably the 75Hz signal is NOT pink noise?
> 
> As for the low/high output...are you referring to the amplitude adjustment?
> 
> Sorry if these are stupid questions.



The tone generator gives the option for pink noise. Take a look at the screen image, you will see it. Some pink noise contains frequencies that are too low and can damage the speaker. Some are to high and won't do any good stretching out the suspension.

Low/High "inputs". Are you not going to plug from your computer straight into your guitar amp? I was referring to low and high guitar inputs.

To be safe. Set it up for 75Hz Sine wave and use that into whatever amp you are going to drive it with. The tone generator by itself is to weak to drive the speakers.


----------



## Walkingmanblues

Marty, yes, my plan is to jack it right into the front of the amp, there is only 1 input...if I'm following you.


And thanks for the advice on this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some amps have a High and Low input. Your amp just has one. No problem. Just start it up with the volume down and then bring it up. I use a signal generator and a solid state amp and I drive the speakers for 48 hours.


----------



## Walkingmanblues

Thanks so much for the help, Marty. I think I've got a handle on what to do now. Think I'm going to do it in fits and bits, maybe 3-4 four hours at a go and spread the break-in period over ten days or so. Looking forward to hearing the results.


----------



## nedcronin

Latest update on the cabinet quest...I found a 1960A with 4 hellatone 30's in it....think that's going to be the ticket. Unfortunately I have been waiting for a guy for 2 hours now who's coming to buy my Boogie cab....typical craigslist deal....always a hang up somewhere! I'm sure he will be here just in time to make it so I can't make the trip up for this cab today....bummer


----------



## thetragichero

between the red, white, and blues speakers, the nos tubes, and the new pickup in my strat.... things are soundin` goooooood


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> between the red, white, and blues speakers, the nos tubes, and the new pickup in my strat.... things are soundin` goooooood



Great. I'm happy for ya. What pickup did you go with on the Strat?


----------



## jerryjg

Any love at all for the Eminence Tonker around these parts?


----------



## Mudhoney

Hey all.

I have a 4 x10 marshall cab that goes with my jcm 600 head. Limited grey front 90's head and cab. I brought it second hand about a year ago just to get into valve amps and it was going quite cheap. It was serviced just before I brought it.

Now at a gig last month no sound came out of the cab. After my bassist tested it with a current detection device, one of the speakers did not beep when all the others did.

I also tried my head through another cab and there was sound.

I have tried to find (even rang marshall) the replacement speaker (marshall series, gold back, celestion 4 ohm , 10 inch, 30 watt, but with no luck.

Can anyone point me in the right direction as where to find a replacement or should I just look for a new cab?


----------



## thetragichero

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great. I'm happy for ya. What pickup did you go with on the Strat?



alnico 5 single coil wound to 7.5k for the bridge by this guy Benson Custom Handwound (the middle is also one of his... but wound to 7k and rwrp for hum cancelling)

EDIT: i also had him make me a p90 wound to 12k for the squier.... i can't WAIT to get that beastly installed!


----------



## nedcronin

Well I brought home that cabinet today after checking it out, a 1960A with 4 G12H30 Hellatones in it.....sounds killer. I think the GT65's stand as my favorite but these speakers have that rich midrange and mellow top end I have been on the hunt for. They really sound fat when pushed hard and they get a touch of smooth cone breakup going. Very Paul Kossof type of tone. The bottom stays tight even though the mids get a little bit of breakup, almost a woody type of tone. Very classic rock sounding and very rich. Sweet!


----------



## jerryjg

Ive decided on maybe a Tonespotter and a Red Fang for my 2x12 cabinet. I'm thinking the Spotter just sounds about the richest between the Tonker( which comes of a bit sterile in the clips) and the Pvt. Jack- which would be my second choice at this point, although I do have a brand new Tonker in the box ( thing , any one want a trade?).
I'm thinking the Spotter would fill in some body and treble crispness and some taughtness to the bass that the sweeter more laid back and spongier/sparklier 'Fang lacks?
Now I know there is a difference i sensitivity between the Red Fang and the Tonsepotter ( the "Spotter is 100.7db and the 'Fang is 103db), however I'm thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea for the Red Fang to Dominate the mix of the two?
Anyone catch my drift or am I being to vague here?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> alnico 5 single coil wound to 7.5k for the bridge by this guy Benson Custom Handwound (the middle is also one of his... but wound to 7k and rwrp for hum cancelling)
> 
> EDIT: i also had him make me a p90 wound to 12k for the squier.... i can't WAIT to get that beastly installed!



Sweet dude. Those should make some good one's. Let me know how the P90 works out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

nedcronin said:


> Well I brought home that cabinet today after checking it out, a 1960A with 4 G12H30 Hellatones in it.....sounds killer. I think the GT65's stand as my favorite but these speakers have that rich midrange and mellow top end I have been on the hunt for. They really sound fat when pushed hard and they get a touch of smooth cone breakup going. Very Paul Kossof type of tone. The bottom stays tight even though the mids get a little bit of breakup, almost a woody type of tone. Very classic rock sounding and very rich. Sweet!



I assume that your deal went through with your cab? Congratulations on your new cab (used, but new to you).

If it sounds like you describe it, it should be killer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jerryjg said:


> Any love at all for the Eminence Tonker around these parts?



The Tonker is a design that is all Eminence. It is not a clone speaker. It is also very high power and high efficiency. British sounding with a dip at 1.5KHz. This smooths out the upper mids and then it has a sparkle to it's top end that is good for 5.5KHz.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jerryjg said:


> Ive decided on maybe a Tonespotter and a Red Fang for my 2x12 cabinet. I'm thinking the Spotter just sounds about the richest between the Tonker( which comes of a bit sterile in the clips) and the Pvt. Jack- which would be my second choice at this point, although I do have a brand new Tonker in the box ( thing , any one want a trade?).
> I'm thinking the Spotter would fill in some body and treble crispness and some taughtness to the bass that the sweeter more laid back and spongier/sparklier 'Fang lacks?
> Now I know there is a difference i sensitivity between the Red Fang and the Tonsepotter ( the "Spotter is 100.7db and the 'Fang is 103db), however I'm thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea for the Red Fang to Dominate the mix of the two?
> Anyone catch my drift or am I being to vague here?



I've never paired a Tonespotter with a Red Fang. That might be interesting. Now you know the Tonespotter only comes in 8 ohms. Keep that in mind.''

I don't think the sensitivity will be an issue. Although I recommend a spread of 2dB or less. Also note that the wattage rating of the 212 cabinet would be 60 watts RMS, 120 watts of Program Power.


----------



## nedcronin

Hey team, hope everyone is out of the path of that Hurricane coming up the east coast....may be a windy wet one here on Friday. But anyway, I dialed in the G12H-30's with some gig volume tonight....had to lower my treble and presence and bring up the bass.....then there it was! Kick Ass! Man those speakers really get full & fat when hit hard. The cone breaks up but not on the low end, just the mids, sort of creamy sounding. With the presence and treble too high the tone is too bright, but dial it in and it is really sweet. I found with the TSL on 7 it was just BALLS! BIG & BEEFY!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Way to go Ned.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> 10,000th post. Thanks to all of my friends.


.


----------



## nedcronin

Thanks Marty! Hey is a G12M-70 anything at all like a G12M-65?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No. They both sound different.


----------



## nedcronin

Oh jeez, just when all was well with cabs & speakers........I was just cranking up the new cab, all of a sudden when I palm a low E or F chord, I get a buzzing....loud buzzing. I thought I blew a speaker but when I turn it back down a little, the buzz is gone. Do you think I am just hitting these speakers too hard or is it too much low end for them to handle? G12H-30's x 4 with a TSL 60 master just above halfway.......I was loving this new cab......
Now I'm totally bummed. 
Do you think this could be fixed with some insulation or padding in the cab or is it just too much for these thirty watters? Here is a soundclip, the camera gets clipped when I turn it up but maybe you can hear the buzz I'm talking about? It's right about 40 seconds in....any help appreciated!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkqMIk2MFPU[/ame]


----------



## thetragichero

could they be the handles on the cab rattling?
that's what it turned out to be for me, so i stuck some old tshirts in to dampen their movement until i can get to home depot to get some epoxy


----------



## nedcronin

Did it sound like a buzzing?


----------



## thetragichero

yes i thought it was the speakers
rattling/buzzing


----------



## nedcronin

I think the speakers are just getting crushed by too much power, I checked and I don't think it's the handles....could you hear it in that soundclip?


----------



## nedcronin

I'm hoping Marty will know what the deal is.....if it's just too much for these 30 watters I'll have to go for that cab with the G12M-65's...even though she ain't pretty, the sound was ALL THAT


----------



## thetragichero

i'm at work, so i can't listen to any audio


----------



## Hillcountry

Wow that is a sweet sound though. 

I hear what you are talking about with the buzz. Are you sure it was the speakers and not the walls? Are all the speakers snug, but not too tight? Have you tried it with the head on the ground? - I once had a rattle and it was the head vibrating on top of the cab. 
Is the center post tight on the back-is there a screw there?

I'm just trying to think of things that could rattle but not the speakers.

-Hillcountry


----------



## nedcronin

Hey Hillcountry, yes to all the above....post, screw, head on ground, you name it I've tried it. It could be something loose inside the jack mount area, or possibly a handle or something like that, but it comes on all at once with the master over 5 so I'm thinking its a speaker sound. Thanks I agree it is a kick ass sounding cab except for that nasty buzz.


----------



## LuredMaul

It sounds like those speakers don't like your lowend eqing and or volume ned :/


----------



## CaptainBeyond

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Thanks, Joe. I am going to try to obtain as many digital clips as I can.
> 
> Now about the JBL D123's. These speakers came out in the Fifties and at some point in the late Sixties the frame was modified to allow for front or rear mount. The later version is finished in a black, crinkle powder coat paint. The last D123 left the factory in the early 70's.
> 
> The D123 has been called the best guitar speaker. Harvey Gerst is a long time JBL engineer. He designed the D123. He and several other JBL designers say that it covers music that wasn't even around when the speaker was invented.
> 
> This speaker is capable of some very tight bottom end, especially in a sealed or ported cabinet. In the right cabinet, you can get down to 35 Hz. It is a full range speaker and it goes to 12KHz. If you use a lot of FX and play with a lot of harmonics, you should try this speaker. It works well for blues, rock, hard rock and nu-metal.
> 
> If you looked at the photo, you can see the workmanship that went into these speakers. I have nine of these and also six recone kits in case I find a frame cheap on EBAY. These use special flat wound voice coils that have no air gap. Therefore, you get more wire in the gap. That is why these speakers are a hit with small tube Hi Fi's. The 123 is rated at 99dB with 1 watt. Not bad for a full range speaker.
> 
> Their only drawback is power handling. They have changed this several times before settling on 50 watts.
> 
> Now, the Altec 417 comes in many versions. I also have two of these with a "Bell" back. They are the "Version I" model. These are rated at 75 watts and the 417-8H is rated at 100 watts. These are the speakers that Carlos Santana used in his early Mesa Boogie amps. Many older Boogies are equipped with Altecs. A Boogie combo with two of these is one heavy sucker.
> 
> The 417 is another great American speaker. It doesn't have the full range of the D123, but it easily covers the guitar spectrum. These are getting harder and harder to find, because they didn't sell as heavy as the JBL speakers. (Remember, JBL had a deal with Fender. All JBL's equipped in a Fender amp were painted orange.)
> 
> I can say that the 417 is a truly wonderful speaker. If you can ever find a pair, they make a killer 212 cab. Randy Rhoads used the 417 exclusively in his 4 by 12 cabinets. If you liked his sound, now you know what kind of speakers he was running.
> 
> Next, I'll break down some of the Eminence speakers.*


That Altec is amazing! It looks like it was born yesterday! Altec used to be the king of tour sound in the day. I have multiple Altec PA cabs, I never knew they did guitar cones .. wild. Altec actually was connected with JBL at one time .. hence Altec Lansing ... James B. Lansing. Very cool. Where do you find this stuff Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I find this stuff, because I'm always looking for it. You have to keep an eye on Craig's List and EBAY as you never know what will be listed.

My Bell Back 417's are from the mid 60's. Incredible. If I had 2 more, I would have one heavy 412 cab.


----------



## Micky

Hey Marty - What the hell is this thing?






If necessary you can go to the gallery and look at the photo full-rez (12 mp) :

Blackfoot in Concert - Micky's Photos | SmugMug


----------



## MartyStrat54

It looks like what they call a "manifold" subwoofer. That exposed speaker is coupled to another speaker inside that is wired out of phase to the outside speaker. This makes for a "push-pull" system. These type of enclosures make very high SPL's of bass.

Where was it being used? Keyboards? How many were on the stage that you saw? It definitely is for sub bass.


----------



## nedcronin

I appreciate everyone's input. I couldn't find anything loose on that cab, except the speaker wiring solders looked really half assed. I took it as a sign and just returned it for the cab with G12M-65's, which I probably just should have bought in the first place. Before i left the store I hit it with a 100 watt JVM cranked up to 10 and didn't hear anything but bone crushing bliss. So I'm pretty psyched to say when I really gave this cab close inspection the only thing shabby was the tolex. But I will admit those almost 30 year old speakers sound fantastic! I would not hesitate to buy a G12H-30 loaded cab from avatar and I probably will get one somewhere down the road. I can imagine with a low wattage amp like a Class 5 into that cab you would get heavenly tones. But those speakers just don't seem to like being pushed too hard. The G12M-65 is giving me that same singing midrange but the bottom end stays nice & tight. Also, if you crank it and sustain a chord or a solo note, the 65's seem to just naturally succumb to beautiful feedback that is some kind of sweet. Soundclips to come soon when I get them dialed in 100%.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> It looks like what they call a "manifold" subwoofer. That exposed speaker is coupled to another speaker inside that is wired out of phase to the outside speaker. This makes for a "push-pull" system. These type of enclosures make very high SPL's of bass.
> 
> Where was it being used? Keyboards? How many were on the stage that you saw? It definitely is for sub bass.


 Two on the stage, opposed to each other on either side, 30-40 feet apart.
Looked like part of the monitor system, as they were 'aimed' at the band rather than the crowd. They had stacks of 18's for the crowd, at least 40 of them...


----------



## CaptainBeyond

Thanks for the tips Marty. Over 20 years ago when Altec obsoleted their tour line I asked for a schematic of the A-7 ... they sent me dimensional drawings for nearly all of their tour line. Way more than I had thought they would do. Very generous of them. I since have built 4 cabinets but could never find the correct drivers. I loaded them with JBL E-140's and they sound great! They re-issued the A-7 recently, goes for over 3500 each with the sectoral horn. I would love to hear those 417's. Nice!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well isn't the spec speaker for an A-7 a 515? I will have to say that Altec was never in the same park as JBL when it came to massive, high power bass speakers. Those JBL 140's are better speakers and will produce more/lower bass at higher wattage than if it had the 515 or even a 421.


----------



## nedcronin

You guys may have heard these clips so I apologize if so, but I'm so psyched with these G12M-65 speakers I wanted to make sure all you speaker freaks like myself got to hear them.... here's clean then dirty.......

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEkp42UtMNA]YouTube - Clean Marshall Blues .MOV[/ame]



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcSedl_yc2A&NR=1]YouTube - g12M 65's[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad that you are happy and that you didn't get stuck with that other cab with the noise. Why Celestion came out with the G12T-75's to replace the G12-65's I'll never know. The 65 blows a 75 away. I mean they have made thousands of the 75's and they are still an OE Marshall speaker. You have to find and old 800 1960 cab to get the 65's.


----------



## nedcronin

Agreed 100% Marty....I rehearsed with this bad boy last night it sounded great! The 75's are just too scooped I guess. And man those 65's roll off the top end just enough to be smooth. I will never part with this cab..


----------



## solarburn

Those 65's sound like my kind of speakers. Glad you scored on that cab/speaker combo. I've got to get some new pups for my ESP but speakers are going to be my next goal. I've got plenty of great tubes but I need some speakers.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Micky, from the way it dwarfs that foot monitor...Id say that was some kind of kick-ass thump 18.


----------



## Micky

I think it is bigger than 18, more like a 22 or 24.
I was so close to the stage I didn't hear much of the PA, I heard mostly stage stuff, and I gotta admit, the bass was INfuckingCredible! They had about 15-20 18's on each side of the stage, and these beasts dwarfed them.

I think you can go full-rez on my hosting site and see what may be written on the speakers...


----------



## Micky

Found it. It is a P-Audio 21" woofer.
1KW, 8-ohm, 6" voice coil.
About $800.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've heard of P-Audio. Actually, that's a decent price for a 21-inch. Somebody else makes a 21-inch as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BEYMA 21L50-1000 watts, 4.5 inch voice coil.






Beyma and P-Audio are the only two companies making these monsters. That's huge!


----------



## MM54

Marty, you should make a 4x21 cab for... erm... bass


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know what you would have to build that out off? The amount of bracing required. The baffle would have to be one-inch Medite. The shell would have to be one-inch void free ply. Big money in materials. Lots and lots of bracing. Those speakers move things.


----------



## MM54

Exactly. If one could pull it off, it would be epic. Perhaps an earthquake machine in disguise?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The movie "Earthquake" utilized a huge Cerwin Vega PA system in select theaters around the country. The subs were special designed 18-inch speakers with a smooth aluminum rod in the dead center. The dust cap was actually a second spider and supported the movement of this massive 800 watt beast. The second spider had a bushing that slid up and down the aluminum pole. They had like 3/4-inch travel on the cone. They only came on when the earthquake was occurring. Pretty awesome.


----------



## Micky

I rode in a vehicle recently that had transducers bolted under the seats.
That was freakin' scary bass...


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> The movie "Earthquake" utilized a huge Cerwin Vega PA system in select theaters around the country. The subs were special designed 18-inch speakers with a smooth aluminum rod in the dead center. The dust cap was actually a second spider and supported the movement of this massive 800 watt beast. The second spider had a bushing that slid up and down the aluminum pole. They had like 3/4-inch travel on the cone. They only came on when the earthquake was occurring. Pretty awesome.



Nice!


----------



## Marte

Hello, i am new to the forum. I bought a Peavey 4x12 cab with 3x G12K-85 Speakers and 1x G12M-70 with a Marshall 100 Lead Mosfet. I Have a attached a photo of how the speakers use to be connected. The lines I have pointed with a green or red line are the ones connect to the Switch jack. I want to know what would be the correct setting for this to work at 4ohms with all 4 (In lame man terms please or a picture). 

Last night I checked and I notice that G12K-85 on the upper right had blown since I couldnt get no sound from it after testing. Now im currently running a 3x12 for now, with the G12M-70 running through the lower G12K-85 (I know I will only get 70watts out of my G12K-85K) and the other G12K-85 solo. 

I also usually get some of staticish noise from the 3 remaining speaker even at zero volume but it doesn't bother me much but should I switch them? I also which to know where can I get some new disconnect cables? I cant seem to find any online. Im thinking about just buying a G12K-85 of ebay or G12M-70 along with a new switch craft and disconnects if I can find some. Or should I just buy 4 new speakers if so what would you recommended? (I just dislike these dont include disconnect cables). 

-Marte


----------



## MartyStrat54

First off, anyone reading this, please note this is a MOSFET amp. That is why he can run three speakers.

Actually, if it was me, I would wire the 412 cab in parallel for a 4 ohm load. This would allow max power from the amp.

The easiest thing would be to score another G12M-70 and run two of each. 

However, it sounds like the speakers may have been abused. If so, use good judgment on what you want to do.


----------



## Marte

MartyStrat54 said:


> First off, anyone reading this, please note this is a MOSFET amp. That is why he can run three speakers.
> 
> Actually, if it was me, I would wire the 412 cab in parallel for a 4 ohm load. This would allow max power from the amp.
> 
> The easiest thing would be to score another G12M-70 and run two of each.
> 
> However, it sounds like the speakers may have been abused. If so, use good judgment on what you want to do.




ok


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Im running 8 g12m-70's now and absolutely love the sound.


----------



## Marte

chuckharmonjr said:


> Im running 8 g12m-70's now and absolutely love the sound.



nice any idea where I can score one lol ebay only has about 2 for sale


----------



## nedcronin

There was a guy on my local craigslist selling an early 80's Laney 4x12 w 4 G12M70's in it....im in RI about three hours from you...he only wanted 200 for it...they are nice cabs too


----------



## MM54

Thoughts on the G12K-85? There's a cab for sale on CL that has them, I can't afford it but does anyone know anything about them?

(Cab is a Madison MAG4122)


----------



## CaptainBeyond

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well isn't the spec speaker for an A-7 a 515? I will have to say that Altec was never in the same park as JBL when it came to massive, high power bass speakers. Those JBL 140's are better speakers and will produce more/lower bass at higher wattage than if it had the 515 or even a 421.


Yeah Marty. The 515 be the guy. Just getting your hands on it, and more importantly having it handle the kind of SPL I was looking for ...ah. I mis-spoke that A-7 re-issue is 4000.00 plus 300 delivery. The Voice of the Theater was a great cabinet. The E-140's are fantastic, I have them loaded as low mids in the Altec "ghost" cabs. I have JBL Bi-radial horns and super tweets as well. The subs are EAW dual 18's. I believe some of the reasoning behind the loading of the exponential horn of the A-7 had to do with cone travel. the 140's are pretty stiff dogs. That's why a lot of guys ripped up cones in the day loading these exponential horn cabs with stiff cones and high wattage. Thanks. Sorry for the delay bro.


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of my favorite "low end" setups was at a rock bar in Phoenix called Hammerheads. They had four, JBL scooped cabs per side loaded with D140's instead of 2225's. Talk about a pounding 55Hz. Good grief. Those JBL double 15-inch scoops were killer cabs and you could use a variety of speakers with them, but the 140 and the 2225 were the best.

16, fifteen-inch woofers in a 500 seat bar was massive overkill, but the club had an image of just insanely loud live music.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I forgot to tell you about my run in with Eminence Legends. They are in the Soldano cab. I love them. I just tried them with the Vintage Modern and WOW did those puppies sound good. I also checked the greenbacks with the HR50 and that sounded damn good. It must be the amps though. LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well just remember that the Legends line has been around a lot longer than the Patriot or Red Coat series. They only kept their best sounding, most popular models. It doesn't surprise me to see them in the Soldano cab, or the fact that you like them.


----------



## CaptainBeyond

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of my favorite "low end" setups was at a rock bar in Phoenix called Hammerheads. They had four, JBL scooped cabs per side loaded with D140's instead of 2225's. Talk about a pounding 55Hz. Good grief. Those JBL double 15-inch scoops were killer cabs and you could use a variety of speakers with them, but the 140 and the 2225 were the best.
> 
> 16, fifteen-inch woofers in a 500 seat bar was massive overkill, but the club had an image of just insanely loud live music.


Hammerheads .... that says it all!!!! Yeah, JBL had the tour market hands down. I was part of a rock act that used 4 Klipsch sugar scoops as we used to call them ... unbelievably hard hitters. Mostly ball rooms, 60 can light shows, pyro, concussion, flavored fog juice, all that jazz. Just looking at the PA was worth the cover charge! The JBL 4520 had dual side by side 15's in a 13 ft folded horn! The single scooped 4530 had a single 15 with a 7 foot folded horn. The workhorse was the 4560A. Saw that everywhere. There also was the dual 15 directional cab 4550A that laid on its side. The top loaded cabs had either 2205' or e140's. Apparently the 140's and its counterparts for 4560 ie a type of A-7 had long excursions and would hit the horn throats, so they would rip up cones. Homework ... also check your facts jack! Later Marty. Hey what happened to steelhorse? Did he get eaten by a polar bear or what?


----------



## MartyStrat54

He was gone for a while, but he has been back on and off. He's not on like he used to be.


----------



## J. Burns

So, over the next couple months, I'm going to be gathering up the funds to replace the speakers in my two 4x12s (JCM 800-era 1960A, and a late 90's Sunn Model T) 

Both cabinets have G12-75Ts, which I hated when I played in a two guitar band, but like okay now that I use them in a one guitar band. They're still not my favorite, though. I'm looking for more low-mids and less icepick. 

In the 1960A, I'm 99% sure I want to run with the Eminence Private Jacks. It's hard to judge by clips on the internet, but I really dig what's going on in the low-mids of these speakers. 

The Sunn Cab is a bit trickier. It's super deep, and sounds great with my Park 2203, but kind of muddy and bland with my Soldano Avenger (which sounds awesome on the 1960A). Obviously I'm going to pair up each cabinet with the head that sounds best for it, but it would be nice to be able to use each head and cab interchangeably. 

I'm leaning towards an X-pattern of Texas Heats and Governors for the Sunn Cab. Does that sound like a good idea? I'm looking for lows that are full, but won't get muddy in such a deep cabinet. Also looking for high-mids that are crisp, but not icepicky. 

Anyone got an idea of anything else that would sound good in that box?

Also, another thing:

Are there any specific disadvantages to changing out one speaker at a time in a 4x12? I ask mainly for two reasons: it's a lot easier for me to come up with $75 at a time than it is $700. Also, Eminence speakers have a reputation of taking forever to break in, so it might be easier on my ears (and the audience's!) to listen to one speaker breaking in amongst seven that already are.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, I got the foam kits for those JBL's in the mail earlier this week, I'll probably be installing them soon, maybe tomorrow or Monday. It seems pretty straight forward, but if anything comes up, I'll be in contact with you


----------



## xrlnt6

Hey marty whats your thoughts on celestion seventy 80's


----------



## MartyStrat54

xrlnt6 said:


> Hey marty whats your thoughts on celestion seventy 80's



For solo work or lead guitar in a two guitar band, they are fine. They are a little thin in the low end, so drop tuning or 7 string guitars would not work very well with them. 

They are very popular as an OE speaker, but they aren't for me. I like a speaker to have a thick bottom end and strong mids with smooth highs.


----------



## MM54

I figured I might as well share this here - A couple of days ago I put white piping on my cab in place of the old black that was on it when I got it - here's a nice picture. It took way longer to do than expected, and it was hell getting the baffle out of there to get at the piping


----------



## thetragichero

finally bit the bullet and ordered the 2 black powders to go with my 2 red white and blues


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm positive that you will absolutely love the Black Powders. They kick arse and I think the R, W and Blues will be a decent pairing.


----------



## thetragichero

it's going to be loud with good low end - how can it go wrong?


----------



## 00jett

I have on lend from a friend a 2x12 cab right now with what he claims to be older Eminence copies of the EV12L. The low end sounds awesome from these speakers. Does anyone have any info on them (Ill try to take some pictures later)? They look like nothing thats currently on the Eminence site from a construction stand point.


----------



## maxx10

Hey marty /do you know about the celestion rocket 50's?iv got some celestion 35w x4-/-2 sound diferent than other 2 should i switch out the rockets with the 35's? I play thrash to-dokin type stuff. The 35's r in a valvestate cab im sellin/ the 50's r in a mc-4x12 never could get the true marshall edge when 35's were in my carvin 4x12/. R the 50's junk? celestion dosnt say a lot about them other than standered 4x12 spkr.and nothin on the 35's two were origanal to the vs cab the other two were out of a crate i think/,but warmed up the valvestate/as the two v.s. 35's added defenition 2 the carvin cab basicly i had 8 35's &swt them around .carvin is long gone -v.s. Soon to be sold will only have the marshall mc cab. There all 8 onm spkrs using valvestate 100w head/do i need to warm up the mc cab w/ two of the 35's before v.s. Gets sold? The 50's have small mags as well but i know that gives quicker response? They look like the ones in the mg cabs/but celestions& marshall did mate them 4 a tranzistor type amp so?havent really experamented yet w/ mc cab dont want to be harsh sounding either need to sound as tube like as posible. Just got rid of my jtm 60 marsh to many =-issuse's w/ tubes as well as a 50w randall all tube thing so valvestate work fine but need to know before other cab go's// on a budget so have to work w/ what i have now thanx ALSO LIKE THAT LOW MID THING/BUT NOTICED ITS MORE OF WHAT MIX'S W/ BAND IM THE LEAD PLYR SO ?? USE A CARVIN CUSTOM STAR-LP SOUND& A DINKY REVERS LOV THE LOWS BUT COULD NEVER BE HEARD TO WELL // if i use the 35's ill be usin only 2 in x patern for mix.


----------



## 00jett

Ok wow these speakers really thump!! They look identical to these.

Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound

Id say they are these Delta Pro speakers only a bit more dust on them. What a thump they sound huge. I used the search of this thread and found they have been talked about before. Anyone using the regularly?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You wrote a lot, but I don't know if I am reading it right. If you are unhappy with the Rockets, I say get rid of them. I personally don't like the way they sound.

Also, the Valvestate is an 8 ohm/4 ohm amp, correct? It's not designed for a 16 ohm 412 cab. If that's the case, based on what you play, I would get a pair of 8 ohm Black Powders and a pair of 8 ohm Tonespotters and wire the 412 cab to an 8 ohm cab. Now the MC cab you have isn't going to have the lows of a 1960 cab, but it still will be better.

If money is tight, then I say keep the best sounding speakers. That is your decision on which ones to keep.


----------



## MartyStrat54

00jett said:


> Ok wow these speakers really thump!! They look identical to these.
> 
> Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound
> 
> Id say they are these Delta Pro speakers only a bit more dust on them. What a thump they sound huge. I used the search of this thread and found they have been talked about before. Anyone using the regularly?



Okay. I suspected as much. I have talked these up big time. They are every bit as good as an EV, but I think they are better. Massive power handling. Can be use for bass, PA or guitar. Great low end for a stand alone 12-inch speaker. Flat frequency response. These will make a huge difference in how your cab/guitar pickups sound. I have two of these in an over sized 212 cab and they can handle any amp with ease. Of course they weigh at around 18 pounds each. Four of these in a 412 cab are going to be heavy my friend.


----------



## 00jett

Ya 4 of these speakers would be nuts from a weight stand point. While I have them tho, I am going to try the 2 of them in my 4x12 just cause im curious. I have 2 v30s, 2 G12h-30s, and 2 red, white, an blues speakers, any suggestions of what to mix with the delta pros in the 4x12. Im thinking the g12h-30s


----------



## MartyStrat54

Any of those should work with the Delta Pro. The R, W and Blues is the hottest at slightly over 101dB. The Celestion are closer to the 99dB rating of the Delta Pro. 

Remember, in a 412 cab, the power handling is reduced to 120 total RMS watts with the G12H-30's and 240 watts with the V30.

However, I feel that the R, W and Blues would be the better match. It has a frequency response somewhat similar to the Delta Pro. The Celestions will add a lot of coloration to a flat, neutral speaker.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, what's with the "10-09-2010 coming very soon." in your sig, or is it a secret?


----------



## thetragichero

i think it's his 90th birthday
jkjkjkjkjk buddy


----------



## MM54

While I'm here...





That white mark isn't there, it's dust on my camera lens.





They're like my L-150's little cousins 


I need to get these hooked up and the new surrounds broken in


----------



## Micky

Those look just like my old Micro Acoustics cabinets used to!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now they are worth something. Good score.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Hey Marty, what's with the "10-09-2010 coming very soon." in your sig, or is it a secret?



It is indeed my birthday and I'm hoping a lot of you guys will send me a little gift. For instance, you could send me a 1974 Cherry Sunburst Les Paul. Is that within your budget for a good buddy?

:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> i think it's his 90th birthday
> jkjkjkjkjk buddy



It's my 89th birthday.


----------



## Micky

No, really. What is the significance? (I just noticed. Not very observant, am I?)


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> It is indeed my birthday and I'm hoping a lot of you guys will send me a little gift. For instance, you could send me a 1974 Cherry Sunburst Les Paul. Is that within your budget for a good buddy?
> 
> :cool2:



My budget would be more along the lines of a maraschino cherry from the jar in my fridge. Will that suffice ?


----------



## Micky

PM us all your address and we will all send you 'something'...


----------



## MM54

Micky said:


> PM us all your address and we will all send you 'something'...



+1


----------



## 00jett

> Any of those should work with the Delta Pro. The R, W and Blues is the hottest at slightly over 101dB. The Celestion are closer to the 99dB rating of the Delta Pro.
> 
> Remember, in a 412 cab, the power handling is reduced to 120 total RMS watts with the G12H-30's and 240 watts with the V30.
> 
> However, I feel that the R, W and Blues would be the better match. It has a frequency response somewhat similar to the Delta Pro. The Celestions will add a lot of coloration to a flat, neutral speaker.



Very interesting, I wondered that cause the frequency graphs were a closer match. Im just worried about the RWBs out-powering the delta pro speakers. Or rather sounding louder(out power is not the right term..). Ill try some combinationsm thanks for the recomendation.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I think the best way to use the Delta Pro is either in a 212 or a 412 cab. Having all the speakers the same is the best way to go. You are defeating the purpose by adding "coloration" to this speaker. I found that this speaker really reacts to a Boss or other graphic EQ in the loop. If I was new school, this is the speaker I would be using. It handles any drop tuning or 7-string guitar with ease. No weak low end here, especially if you have them loaded in an over size 212 cab. (Or a 1960A cab with plywood covers over two of the holes. This gives around 2.5 cubic feet per speaker.) I would then port the cab using one of the plywood plugs. I would tune the cab to 50Hz. Make sure all of the screws are tight as that basturd is going to rock the lows.


----------



## 00jett

Ya im seeing/hearing your point, for quick tests iv been using one delta pro in a 2x12 cab and mixing in and out my other speakers. So far I just like the way the 2 delta pro speakers sounds... Iv been testing out internet rumor that 4ohms(parallel) vs 16ohms(series) can sound different as well. Ill finish up tomorrow when I can push the cab a bit higher volumes.


----------



## maxx10

i had a jenson spker that was in an old gibson falcon amp it sounded great no mater what you put it in ;wish i still had it it was old ,dont know type but there great spkr's find one keep it! wish i knew more about the jensons!


----------



## maxx10

really wierd seein 2 marshalls 1/2 stacks then seein a pedal board proseser ruining the sound of the true marshalls sound/ no offence but just use a stereo pa into ur cabs


----------



## maxx10

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... It's late and my brain is obviously not functioning since I'm sure I've passed the answer up 10-15 times on this thread w/out seeing it, ( I guess that's what I get for digging up old crap)(please forgive my half inebriated drowsy bout of stupidity) but...
> 
> Where do Patriots, Red Coats, Mavericks, and ReignMakers, fit into the list of tonal comparisons?


the bender thing is real cool how did u get permition to use him


----------



## maxx10

:cool2:


MartyStrat54 said:


> You wrote a lot, but I don't know if I am reading it right. If you are unhappy with the Rockets, I say get rid of them. I personally don't like the way they sound.
> 
> Also, the Valvestate is an 8 ohm/4 ohm amp, correct? It's not designed for a 16 ohm 412 cab. If that's the case, based on what you play, I would get a pair of 8 ohm Black Powders and a pair of 8 ohm Tonespotters and wire the 412 cab to an 8 ohm cab. Now the MC cab you have isn't going to have the lows of a 1960 cab, but it still will be better.
> 
> If money is tight, then I say keep the best sounding speakers. That is your decision on which ones to keep.


yes valvestae is two 8 ohm out 4ohm min(2x8ohm parallel)so not 16/ but the mc cab has circiutry for 1x40hm or 1x16ohm or 2x 8ohm stereo.and seem to sound great w/valvestate w/ the 50's/they probly not good match w/ tubes though! but i got real good bass from this set up real tube like///-still never heard anything on the 35's though ;theyr goin by by/ but the 50 rocket r great for valvesnake or any tranzister im thinkin exelent match/ mg ect... marshall rules even the tranz world... thank you greatly for taken time /ive had lot of amps tube and other wise last was marsh-jtm 60 combo-w/marsh heritage spk hated rhe hertg. cool thru 4x12 then a randall tube yuk...happy now w/V.S.-- still tubes rule but at high vol. w/ bass plyer not that differnt tight all night like new tubes all the time


----------



## maxx10

chuckharmonjr said:


> Micky, from the way it dwarfs that foot monitor...Id say that was some kind of kick-ass thump 18.



ya got electricuted last yr.w/ a l.p. in one hand and changin spk cord on 4x12 broke my shoulder blade in 1/2!!!!!! still can figure out why this guys house or valvestate caused it/it was his v.s. pluged in2 4X12-it happened again 2 months ago ;but no body injured this time i was usin randall tube amp &his vs all plugged in same pwr strip?? and im electirtion?? BE CARFULL TUBE USERS!!!!!!


----------



## maxx10

MM54 said:


> My budget would be more along the lines of a maraschino cherry from the jar in my fridge. Will that suffice ?


ABSOLUTLLY SEND ME ONE PLEASE MAYBY MANDERINE ORANGE SLICE TOO:cool2:


----------



## thetragichero

black powders came
put them in on my lunch hour
will post a picture when i get home/tomorrow and then time to button her up and hook up to the pa and mp3 player for a couple days
should finally get a chance to give `er a good test drive at band practice saturday!


----------



## thetragichero




----------



## MartyStrat54

Thump, thump, thump!


----------



## Micky

You are gonna love them! Nice score!

BTW, that has to be the shittiest photo ever.


----------



## thetragichero

it was worse before i upped the exposure... my phone takes AWFUL pictures


----------



## MartyStrat54

My phone gives great head.


----------



## ToddOwnz

Does Eminence have a G12h30 clone? What about Warehouse speakers?

EDIT: ahh I just found warehouse's version and both the Heritage and Ann. copy sound great. I'm trying to get ideas for the 1960A cab I just bought. I hate the 75s with my DSL  But I really like my 212 cab with V30s. So, I thought about getting 2 V30s and maybe 2 Heritage copies? Hmm


----------



## ayy itss daveee

I think I'm going to do a V30 swap in my TSL... Now the question is...

Buy new at 150 each, or be patient and rock the used market?


----------



## ToddOwnz

ayy itss daveee said:


> I think I'm going to do a V30 swap in my TSL... Now the question is...
> 
> Buy new at 150 each, or be patient and rock the used market?



+1000 for being patient!! I got both of mine brand new for $60 each!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Wizard is the Eminence clone of a G12H-30.


----------



## ToddOwnz

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Wizard is the Eminence clone of a G12H-30.



Thanks Marty! Do you have any experience with these speakers?


----------



## Hillcountry

I have a pair and they are great. They are very full sounding and are extremely loud. They sound best in a closed cabinet and sound pretty bad (raspy top end) in an open cab. I have them with 2 cannabis rex in a 4x12. The Wizards have a very pronounced midrange with a solid low end. They do not break up much-at least not with the amps I play. I have played them for about 20 hours and they are still pretty tight and are slowly breaking in. 

They sounded OK with my JTM45 clone but sound awesome with my Superlead clone. They also sound great with my 18 watt amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

WIZARDS

As with most Eminence speakers, they are tough to break in, but once you get there it is so nice.

Although the Wizard is a clone, it still has its own characteristics. Please note that the Wizard is not recommended for open back applications. It shines in a sealed back cab. It is also a very loud speaker. Eminence states that the Wizard is a cross between a Private Jack and The Governor. Again, in clone terms this would be a cross between a Green Back and a V30.

Mixing the Wizard with a Cannabis Rex will thicken the overall mids as the Rex is a strong low mids speaker. Although the Wizard has good low end, I think it really sounds best with a Cannabis Rex or Swamp Thang.

You can also use the Wizard as a stand alone speaker. With a set loaded in a 412 cab, it is an extremely loud and ballsy rig. Works well in a power trio scenario.


----------



## ToddOwnz

You guys rock! Yeah I'd be putting them in a 1960a and ditching the 75s. I was set on getting 2 V30s but I'm starting to think maybe I should just go all Eminence. All kinds of choices...I might just have to play around. Thanks for the time and advice guys!

Also, what do you guys use to inject a tone to break the speakers in? At work we have tone generators...I could just snag one of those


----------



## MartyStrat54

A tone generator/amp set to 75Hz for a minimum of 24 hours. I like to go 48.


----------



## thetragichero

i seem to notice the biggest difference happens between the 24 and 36 hour marks (which happened to be while i was sleeping last night)
seems like the speaker got a lot thumpier
still gonna keep it hooked up to pa until it's past 48 hours, though (most of those hours i'll be at work anyway)


----------



## Hillcountry

Looks like I need to get a tone generator...what volume do you guys use? Just get the cone moving?


----------



## thetragichero

i use an mp3 player hooked up through my solid state pa (no need to put all those hours on my head if i can at all avoid it)
marty told me it needs to be loud enough to move the speakers (i have it decently loud while i'm not at the house, but it may or may not be necessary)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> Looks like I need to get a tone generator...what volume do you guys use? Just get the cone moving?



Don't exceed the Xmax rating of the speaker. Use at least a 50 watt SS amp. Keep in mind that on a 16 ohm load, that 50 watt amp will be like a 25 watt amp. Watch power and cone movement. Check the amp for heat build up. If the amp is stable, then proceed.


----------



## thetragichero

the 1x12 35w 16Ohm 1x12 kustom cab i ordered for 99$ supposedly has an eminence-designed speaker... any clue what this is/is it any good?
(bought the cab just for the box... at the very least i have enough of the g12Ls to put one in there until i find an eminence speaker to put in there)


----------



## thetragichero

ordered a texas heat.... hope it sounds better than the g12L for the 5e3 clone


----------



## MartyStrat54

I tried the Texas Heat with some Private Jacks and it was pretty thin on the bottom I went with Governor's and Texas Heats, that was better. This is supposedly a solid pairing, but after using the Black Powder and Swamp Thang, you can see what just 5Hz more on the bottom end is like. There is a big difference between 70 and 75Hz and a huge difference between 65 and 75Hz.


----------



## thetragichero

just got my first chance to crank the cab with the black powders/red, white, & blues...
WHOOOOOOO BOYYYYY
you weren't kidding when you said it would be LOUD (my ears are still ringing)
i'm liking the better low end from the black powders, too
thanks again, marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great news. Glad to hear it.


----------



## cylon185

All right guys,

Firstly, thanks again Marty for you advice.

I read so much bad things about the G12M-70s in my 1982 that I cant take it out of my head.

Anyone ever tried a cross pattern of 2 Wizards and 2 Governors ?

Hendrix, Van Halen, SRV and Satriani sounds is what I'm looking for.

Cheers,

Cyril


----------



## Hillcountry

Both of those speakers individually are quite loud with a midrange spike around 2+K. With the Gov at 102db and the Wizard at 103db sensitivity they would match up OK, but I'd be worried that the mids would be a little too harsh. I have Wizards and it takes a while to break them in. When they do...they sound great but they are very, very prominent in the midrange. In terms of emulating the musicians you listed, that is a tough one. The Wizards do not have the early SRV (Fender Supers and Vibroverb) sound at all, the later (Major and Dumble) sound...maybe they could achieve that but it all depends on the amp. When I play a strat through a marshall circuit through these they have a Jimi vibe to them...but that could be a product of the circuit and pickups I use. I use the wizards and superlead circuit when I am going for a Trower kind of sound. 

I find the wizards to work best with the superlead and Les Paul for a Kossoff or Cream type of sound. For me that's where they shine. When I am going for a Texas blues sound I use cabs with Legend 125s or 10 inch alnicos. 


I have no experience with the Governor though, so I don't wan't to assume anything there.

Now I am rambling so I will sign off...
-Hillcountry


----------



## thetragichero

so what's the reason bass cabs generally use 10" speakers (4x10, 8x10, etc) as opposed to 12" speakers?
i have in my head that the bigger the speaker, the bigger the bass response...


----------



## Hillcountry

I had always thought...and heres a good opportunity to find out if I am wrong...that bass speakers were smaller because you could make a better quality 10" speaker, and add speakers which would increase both the cone surface area and wattage handling of the whole cabinet. So to make a 1000 watt cab, you can have 4-250 watt 10 inch speakers instead of one 1000 watt 18" speaker. It would probably also make a cheaper cabinet. 

That being said...I am looking forward to hearing from the experts on why they really are like that.
-Hillcountry


----------



## Hillcountry

Perhaps you also get less cone distortion?


----------



## MartyStrat54

cylon185 said:


> All right guys,
> 
> Firstly, thanks again Marty for you advice.
> 
> I read so much bad things about the G12M-70s in my 1982 that I cant take it out of my head.
> 
> Anyone ever tried a cross pattern of 2 Wizards and 2 Governors ?
> 
> Hendrix, Van Halen, SRV and Satriani sounds is what I'm looking for.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Cyril



You would probably be better off with two Swamp Thangs or two Cannabis Rex. These speakers are a little fatter sounding in the low end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> I had always thought...and heres a good opportunity to find out if I am wrong...that bass speakers were smaller because you could make a better quality 10" speaker, and add speakers which would increase both the cone surface area and wattage handling of the whole cabinet. So to make a 1000 watt cab, you can have 4-250 watt 10 inch speakers instead of one 1000 watt 18" speaker. It would probably also make a cheaper cabinet.
> 
> That being said...I am looking forward to hearing from the experts on why they really are like that.
> -Hillcountry



Well it's all about what you are looking for. The big variable is "what you pay." If you got the money honey, they've got a cab for you. There are cheap 18's and there are expensive one's. The same holds true for 10-inch speakers.

Right now, the 410 cab is the most popular bass cab. With two of them (8 x 10), you get a lot of speaker coupling and the sensitivity is good. This is a plus with a bass rig. You want as much sound per watt as you can get.

Now the 10-inch musical instrument speakers have gone through a lot of changes in the past 5 to 10 years. Now there are numerous manufactures of 350 watt, 10-inch drivers, for a reasonable price. While these speakers match up power wise to a bass head, I feel the low end suffers. Ten inch speakers are bright and poppy sounding, but they die at around 50Hz. A good old JBL D, E or K-140 will do the trick. This is a high efficiency 15-inch bass speaker that will take you down another 10Hz to the low 40Hz region. A JBL 15-inch and a 410 cab would be ideal, especially if you bi-amp this rig with the JBL being cut-off at 150Hz and the 10's taking the rest. 

Is a 15 as quick in response as a 10? No, but that extra low end makes up for it. Now I would go with two 15's instead of a high powered 18. To me, an 18 is a little sluggish, although I haven't tried some of the new one's on the market. There are also 4, 21-inch speakers available. Holy cow!

Cone distortion can occur in cheap drivers. It doesn't matter what size they are. It boils down to the quality of build of the driver.

Also, some 410 cabs come with a tweeter. WTF is up with that? If you played with just the JBL 15, it is good to 4KHz. This is more than adequate for the high end of a bass. You don't need some cheezy tweeter. If you have a 410 cab with a tweeter, they usually have a "defeat" switch. Use it. Turn that SOB off.


----------



## thetragichero

haven't messed with my new 4x10 cab (with tweeter) yet, besides plugging in at the dude's house making sure it worked
for what it's worth, whenever i play bass (rarely), i don't use the lowest string all that much


----------



## Hillcountry

That explains why the bass player in a band I was in a long time ago had a G-K head and a 4x10 cab sitting on a 1x15 cab. His rig had the nicest full sound. Thanks Marty!
-Hillcountry


----------



## thetragichero

breaking in the texas heat
replaced the shitty pcb-mounted jack with a switchcraft for reliability's sake


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> breaking in the texas heat
> replaced the shitty pcb-mounted jack with a switchcraft for reliability's sake



Smart move. I always take those out and put two Switchcraft's on a metal back plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thought I would post this. I don't think that I've ever seen a 100 watt Marshall rated at 180 watts, but apparently Scumback thinks so. Read on.

AMP Wattage-How Much Speaker Do You Need?

Please understand one thing. Most amps are rated for their advertised RMS wattage at clean signals. On most amps that's going to be at 3-5 on the volume knob. So your 100 watt Marshall puts out 100 watts at 4. You like to play it at 7, and if your amp is healthy, that's when it puts out 150-180 watts (or more). The guys at Marshall knew what they were doing when they put the "100" logo in the corner of the cabs, but that still meant that you needed two of them to handle a 100 watt amp that put out 180 watts at the levels you set the amp! Get your amp tested for it's real output wattage, no one likes the smell of a melted speaker, OK? Always figure you need twice your RMS wattage in speaker power handling to safely run your amp on 10.

If you get two 30 watt speakers to run with your 50 watt amp, and dime it, they'll be good to go for awhile. I don't know what timeframe "awhile" is. I've safely done it for 2 hours straight, without issues. I have not done that for extended periods, so you want to take that into consideration with all the OD pedals, clean boosts, and so forth that push speakers to raise your level for solos. Use your good old common sense here. Sure, your old small block sounded great and was running awesome at 8000 rpm for "awhile", then the crank, piston, or connecting rod broke, and you weren't mobile anymore. Use the same common sense judgment with choosing your speaker wattage.

Speaker Break-In Time Frame

If you are thinking that you're in tonal bliss right now, wait a bit, you'll be more surprised in 20-50 hours of break in time. All Scumbacks are pre-aged, and slightly broken in when they're manufactured. Each Scumback speaker takes five days to build, and it's not just slapping the cone in a frame, centering it and shipping it out, either. Scumback cones are aged to sound 25 years old, and many have reported that they sound identical to Pre Rola G12M and G12H's from the 60's after minimal break in time. Just to be clear on that, though, I've asked several of my clients to report what they experienced. So here's their comments boiled down to "how many hours?" for break in time...

"25 & 30 watt speakers generally sound their fullest and most articulate after 20-25 hours of break in. The louder you play them, the faster they break in by the way, because it moves the voice coil/cone more. Reports indicate they get more defined, more mids, rounder bass response and louder."

"65 watt (HP model) speakers generally take about twice as long, so figure 40-50 hours before they realize their best tone, with the same attributes as the lower wattage models."

"100 watt (XHP) models sound the same as the 65 watt versions, but they need 60 hours to fully break in due to their higher temperature voice coils."

Many have asked me the differences between the lower wattage, 65 watt HP, and 100 watt XHP speakers. The larger voice coil exhibits a tiny bit more bass response & a bit less treble response. That's if you're really listening and recording and comparing tones. In my tests, moving your bass control from 7 to 5 or 6 usually takes care of the difference between the low power and either the 65 or 100 watt versions. The treble might need to be moved from 6 to 7 to make up the difference. They all sound fantastic so order the speaker power handling you need to handle the ouput wattage of your amp where you play it, and wail on them. That's what they're made for, after all!


----------



## Micky

Interesting info except for the wattage mis-information...

I really hate people who use faulty logic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

!!!-Yes and the sad part is it comes from a speaker manufacturing company. Who better should know these things? If I have a 120 watt RMS speaker and it is rated at 240 watts program power, I would not need a 200 watt RMS speaker to run a 100 watt head (as stated by Scumback). The music power coming from an amp playing guitar is "program power." Therefore a 240 watt program power speaker will handle a dimed 100 watt amp, because you aren't going to be playing continuous "RMS power" through the speaker. 

Geez.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

"RMS"...or Root Means Squared, refers to the peaks on any particular alternating current signal. The ouput of any amplifier, even tho it comes originally from a DC source, becomes AC as it changes to pulse the speaker to follow the musical input. The RMS peak of any signal that is AC is the nominal signal multiplied times the square root of 2...which is 1.414. 100 watts nominal would be 141 watts peak. Thats an extremely simplistic view of what happens. In actuality its the voltage that spikes up...current follows, but not necessarily linearly in high frequency situations...but thats a decent rule of thumb.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I used to believe that a 100 watt Marshall could put out 140 watts max. However, I have read in several articles were claims of 170 watts or more is plausible. I don't agree with these findings. If they are talking about microsecond bursts of power...maybe, but not RMS power. In the early days of solid state HiFi amps, everyone remembers the "peak" power ratings that were ridiculous. "225 watts of peak power!" This from an amp that was actually rated at 35WPC. It's the same line of thought. We all know that we can turn our Marshall's up past their factory power rating, but the tubes will be running at over 15 percent THD (if not more). The PT will always be the carburetor and will control the final output as we all know, "it takes power to make power."


----------



## JCarno

Ok, It's me again. Now for some speaker questions. Excuse the poor pic quality. I pulled this out of a Randall 212 Cab. All my research says it's a Jaguar. Some say they were made by Celestion. There is no writing on them except for the numbers pictured. The magnets are big and heavy, solid black and they are really bassy sounding. Any ideas?


----------



## Hillcountry

The Frame looks like an Eminence. Is there a sticker on the side of the magnet?


----------



## Hillcountry

Also...are there any numbers/letters printed on the back side of the cone?


----------



## JCarno

This is from the back of the cone. I can only make out 371. There are no stickers or other markings on it.


----------



## MM54

Looks a lot like an old (60's) Eminence bass speaker I have, but it's got a square magnet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All I need to see is the number "67." It's an OE Eminence speaker. Nothing fancy, but more like a Jensen sound.


----------



## JCarno

That might explain the extreme bass sound. The Cab was a 150.00 craigslist buy.


----------



## JCarno

MartyStrat54 said:


> All I need to see is the number "67." It's an OE Eminence speaker. Nothing fancy, but more like a Jensen sound.



So it's not a bass speaker?


----------



## Micky

RMS ratings are specific to the amount of THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) and are 'usually' specified at .01%. Adding or driving to distortion, especially in seperate gain stages, can increase the voltage/current delivered to the speakers by a slight amount.

This is why a tube Marshall driven hard can sound louder that a 'clean' amp with the same RMS wattage rating.

Wanna measure the watts output? Connect a meter across the load and figure it out.

100 watts, is still and always will be, 100 watts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JCarno said:


> So it's not a bass speaker?



If I could physically examine the speaker, I could give an opinion. Cone thickness, type of spider/suspension are what I would look at. If it was a bass cabinet, it would not have a lot of power handling. 

Most 10 or 12 inch bass speakers have at least a 2 1/2 inch voice coil. If the speaker has a smaller voice coil, it's probably a guitar speaker. Also, does the speaker cone have a rolled paper surround or is it fabric? The surround is the top part of the cone that is attached to the frame. Most guitar speakers have paper surrounds and bass speakers have a doped fabric surround.


----------



## TheLoudness!!

Any experience with the Eminence Swamp Thang? I want to mix them with my Eminence Goveners.


----------



## JCarno

Hmmm....... from your description, it looks like a bass speaker. The surround is glossy black and I can see what looks like fabric pattern through it. The speaker does struggle for highs. Looks like its time to order 2 more Hellatones. Thanks for all your help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If it has a fabric surround, it's a bass speaker. Guitar speakers have paper surrounds 95 percent of the time.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Thought I would stop by and try to get caught up on the posts.


----------



## TheLoudness!!

Thoughts on a 4x12 with (2) Govener's and (2) Texas Heat's??


----------



## MartyStrat54

TheLoudness!! said:


> Thoughts on a 4x12 with (2) Govener's and (2) Texas Heat's??



That's a proven match and will work out good.


----------



## TheLoudness!!

MartyStrat54 said:


> I tried an Eminence Swamp Thang with a Governor and it sounded really good.
> 
> I had ordered two Texas Heat and two Governor's in 16 ohm to do up a 412 cab. However, I thought I would see how the Governor sounded up against the Swamp Thang.
> 
> Buying all of these tubes and speakers is getting expensive.



This is what I am curious about. I think it would be THE metal setup!! 

I already have the Goveners...


----------



## MartyStrat54

What other speakers were you wanting to pair with the Governors?


----------



## TheLoudness!!

MartyStrat54 said:


> What other speakers were you wanting to pair with the Governors?



I dunno...I want some thick lows to complement the nice mids of the Goveners
I want LOUD..so I am curious about the Wizards..


----------



## MartyStrat54

TheLoudness!! said:


> I dunno...I want some thick lows to complement the nice mids of the Goveners
> I want LOUD..so I am curious about the Wizards..



The Wizards are loud that's for sure, but they don't have as much bottom as a Swamp Thang or Cannabis Rex. I would say use the Swamp Thang. Both the Governor and the Swamp Thang are rated at 102dB and when paired up in a 412 cab it would produce 108dB with one watt. Now that's a loud cabinet!


----------



## TheLoudness!!

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Wizards are loud that's for sure, but they don't have as much bottom as a Swamp Thang or Cannabis Rex. I would say use the Swamp Thang. Both the Governor and the Swamp Thang are rated at 102dB and when paired up in a 412 cab it would produce 108dB with one watt. Now that's a loud cabinet!



In other words, this will get me the most from my SL-x which I think should be louder anyways. Not only that, it will KILL!! 

That is the combo that is in my head anyways


----------



## Stymie13

TheLoudness!! said:


> I dunno...I want some thick lows to complement the nice mids of the Goveners
> I want LOUD..so I am curious about the Wizards..



I did a Wizard and Texas Heat pair in an oversized 2-12" and loved it. Until I started playing in a metal band. I swapped them out for a pair of Man O Wars and WOW. I would suggest a Man O War over the Wizard for metal. Way more aggressive, punchy and tight. Huge bottom end with excellent articulation for muted riffing.


----------



## MM54

Anyone know anything about Madison speakers? There's been a pair on my local CL for ages, and the price is good if they're decent speakers, the problem is, I know nothing about them


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Anyone know anything about Madison speakers? There's been a pair on my local CL for ages, and the price is good if they're decent speakers, the problem is, I know nothing about them



They are still in business, but they are using Celestions to load their cabinets with. If those are old Madison speakers, they could be one of several US made brands. If there is a "67" on the speaker numbers, it's an Eminence. 

Also, there was a tend in the late 60's to put aluminum dust caps on the speakers. I'm not a big fan of this as I think it makes the speaker have some midrange peaks that make the speaker sound tinny.


----------



## MM54

Here's the ad, I can't get much from it other than finding it odd he knows what coils and magnets are on them:

Guitar Speakers


----------



## TheLoudness!!

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are still in business, but they are using Celestions to load their cabinets with. If those are old Madison speakers, they could be one of several US made brands. If there is a "67" on the speaker numbers, it's an Eminence.
> 
> Also, there was a tend in the late 60's to put aluminum dust caps on the speakers. I'm not a big fan of this as I think it makes the speaker have some midrange peaks that make the speaker sound tinny.



Madison is no more. I remember the first Divinity's were DSL copies or close enough to get them in trouble if ya know what I mean. A friend had one and it was problematic...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know if this is still current. The URL states 2007.

Madison Amps & Speakers


----------



## joeellistsl

MartyStrat54

You have a lot of knowledge regarding speakers. Do you have much experience with Weber and/or Tone Tubby.

I just ordered 1-Weber Blue Dog and 1-Weber Silver Bell for my 2X12 Boogie Electra Dyne. I heard these in a different amp a while back and was very impressed. I ordered both with hemp cones btw. I play mostly blues and I love hemp qualities for this.

I also have a Fender Supersonic 60 head paired with a 2X12 Boogie partially open back cab. I want more of an American tone, so I plan to order 2-Tone Tubby speakers for it.

I use Eminence Cannibus Rex & Wizard speakers. I like them alot, but I like alnico speakers more overall.


----------



## ekkybedmond

joeellistsl said:


> MartyStrat54
> 
> You have a lot of knowledge regarding speakers. Do you have much experience with Weber and/or Tone Tubby.
> 
> I just ordered 1-Weber Blue Dog and 1-Weber Silver Bell for my 2X12 Boogie Electra Dyne. I heard these in a different amp a while back and was very impressed. I ordered both with hemp cones btw. I play mostly blues and I love hemp qualities for this.
> 
> I also have a Fender Supersonic 60 head paired with a 2X12 Boogie partially open back cab. I want more of an American tone, so I plan to order 2-Tone Tubby speakers for it.
> 
> I use Eminence Cannibus Rex & Wizard speakers. I like them alot, but I like alnico speakers more overall.



Must be som'tin'special: Silver Bell with hemp cone! Doesn't that change the character of the speaker somewhat ?


----------



## joeellistsl

ekkybedmond said:


> Must be som'tin'special: Silver Bell with hemp cone! Doesn't that change the character of the speaker somewhat ?



I'm sure it does, but not exactly sure how much it changes. For blues, I prefer a more rounded/less bright top end if you will. Hemp typically has this character compared to paper.


----------



## thetragichero

so i'm digging the texas heat with the 5e3 clone (the g12L was too farty), which means i'll either have to find a similar lower powered speaker or a replacement for my 1x12 (would want it rated over 100 watts so i could use the dsl with it if i wanted to)
any suggestions, marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joeellistsl said:


> MartyStrat54
> 
> You have a lot of knowledge regarding speakers. Do you have much experience with Weber and/or Tone Tubby.
> 
> I just ordered 1-Weber Blue Dog and 1-Weber Silver Bell for my 2X12 Boogie Electra Dyne. I heard these in a different amp a while back and was very impressed. I ordered both with hemp cones btw. I play mostly blues and I love hemp qualities for this.
> 
> I also have a Fender Supersonic 60 head paired with a 2X12 Boogie partially open back cab. I want more of an American tone, so I plan to order 2-Tone Tubby speakers for it.
> 
> I use Eminence Cannibus Rex & Wizard speakers. I like them alot, but I like alnico speakers more overall.



Sorry for the late response.

Sounds like you have found your dream speakers. It's what sounds best to you. The Weber's are very nice...and expensive. When you get them loaded and broken in, give us a review on how they sound. I love the blues and the Weber's are dialed into that blue's tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> so i'm digging the texas heat with the 5e3 clone (the g12L was too farty), which means i'll either have to find a similar lower powered speaker or a replacement for my 1x12 (would want it rated over 100 watts so i could use the dsl with it if i wanted to)
> any suggestions, marty?



1.Swamp Thang-Powerful sound and 150WRMS rating. Will handle the DSL.
2.Texas Heat-Another 150WRMS speaker. Less bottom than Swamp Thang.
3.Red, White and Blues-120WRMS with smooth overall sound.
4.Man O War-120WRMS and very aggressive in the mids.
5.Legend 1218-150WRMS and a nice speaker for the money.


----------



## thetragichero

legend 1218 sounds like it might be best for my dsl, 5e3, and picovalve?
interested in the swamp thang but i can imagine it'll be too bassy for the 5e3


----------



## thetragichero

or should i go the other way and try to find a speaker like the texas heat but with lower wattage capacity so i'll get more speaker breakup in the 5e3?
my fate is in your capable hands, marty


----------



## joeellistsl

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry for the late response.
> 
> Sounds like you have found your dream speakers. It's what sounds best to you. The Weber's are very nice...and expensive. When you get them loaded and broken in, give us a review on how they sound. I love the blues and the Weber's are dialed into that blue's tone.



I will Marty. I placed the order on Monday for the Weber's. As you probably know, they make them after an order has been placed, so it will be a few days before I receive them.

I really like the character that hemp cones add for a great blues tone and the Alnico magnets seem to add even more warmth. You seem to lose some of the tightness in the bottom, but overall, they work great for blues.

I really like the Eminence Cannabis Rex speakers a lot, I just wanted to try Alnico. The cost of Alnico speakers prohibited me from trying them until now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> or should i go the other way and try to find a speaker like the texas heat but with lower wattage capacity so i'll get more speaker breakup in the 5e3?
> my fate is in your capable hands, marty



Sorry that I missed this. The thread never showed up when I hit "New Posts."

Anyway, I don't think you could find a 12-inch speaker that would be rated at 15 watts or so to go with the 5e3. There's not going to be any audible change between a 75 watt and a 120 watt speaker.

If you want a speaker that can handle all of your amps, you will have to go with a high wattage speaker.

I have an old alnico 12 that would probably sound really good with the 5e3.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joeellistsl said:


> I will Marty. I placed the order on Monday for the Weber's. As you probably know, they make them after an order has been placed, so it will be a few days before I receive them.
> 
> I really like the character that hemp cones add for a great blues tone and the Alnico magnets seem to add even more warmth. You seem to lose some of the tightness in the bottom, but overall, they work great for blues.
> 
> I really like the Eminence Cannabis Rex speakers a lot, I just wanted to try Alnico. The cost of Alnico speakers prohibited me from trying them until now.



I hear that. Alnico speakers have jumped in price. I bought a Red Fang before the price doubled. Another speaker that I don't have the cash for is the low watt Black Mountain alnico. I would love to do four of those in a 412 cab.

And yes, the Cannabis Rex is a great blues speaker.


----------



## thetragichero

my legend 1218 should be here tomorrow


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have two of those NIB and never used. Same way with two Delta Pro's.


----------



## redscott131

Do any of you guys like the Celestion G12H30 70th Ann speaker? I've had these two since 1998, and still use them today (_sold the cab they were in a while back, and took a pic of them while they were out in the open_). They have the 6402 cones. For the small setup I currently now use, I think they still sound pretty good.


----------



## 00jett

> Do any of you guys like the Celestion G12H30 70th Ann speaker?



Yup


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like them and I think they are a great low watt speaker. My favorite Celestion is still the G12-65.


----------



## Michael1987xl

Marty:

I was wondering if you had done any further experimenting with the aperiodic vents on your cabinets. It's been a while since I've seen anything from you on that subject. 

As I told you, I've got a quad of Eminence Mod12's on the way and I'm going to be loading them into my two 2x12 the Univox cabinets as soon as the speakers get dropped here. In addition to asking you if you thought that one vent per box would be enough, I was wondering if you've got any new tips or tricks to be aware of.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I put the aperiodic vents in the 1960A cab with the Tonespotters and the Black Powders. One hell of a cab. I have two other 412 cabs loaded with sweet speakers, but they don't sound as good as the 1960 cab.

The bottom line is that the aperiodic vents work and they will tighten up the low end. The Black Powders have really good bass and the "system" allows their low end to come out nice and tight. No flubby bass here.

The sad thing is the aperiodic vents are no longer available from Parts Express. The maker stopped producing them. Maybe someone else is producing them. I think I have two new one's around here. Enough for one more 412 cab.

Generally, 212 cabs have more volume and you might have to go with two vents per 212 cab. I also used fiberglass fill in the cabs on the back panel.

Since your Univox cabs are old, make sure you tighten up all of the screws in the cab. I was surprised at how many loose screws were in the 1960. Tighten the speakers down in a star pattern. Make sure they are nice and snug, but avoid tightening them really hard. This can warp a basket.


----------



## 00jett

Hey Marty, I'v browsed around a bit and find alot of guys are attempting to make their own aperiodic vents for cabs, I dont however see anyone claiming they have the 'formula' to get them to sound right. Are aperiodic vents thought out, tuned pieces, or just insolation between plastic? Just curious for your thoughts as you know a whole lot more than my internet reading has got me..!


----------



## MartyStrat54

See this link and then down at the bottom of the page, the first link.

Aperiodic Speaker Enclosure Design

To answer your question, the aperiodic vent is designed to work in a certain range of box volume, so it does have restrictions and more than one may be necessary. As the article states, an aperiodic vent is a controlled "leaking" device that give the cabinet the best of both designs (sealed and ported).

Also, the lower the frequency of the box dictates how many vents you need. I went with two in my 1960 cab, because 80Hz was probably the lowest frequency that would be generated. I use a standard tuning. Now if I was needing 55Hz out of the cab, I would have used three of the vents as more air movement would be required.

From what I can tell, Scan Speak is not selling them anymore. There were two types and both are discontinued items. Some people say you can make them, but how do you know how thick the fiberglass needs to be and how much pressure to be used?


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> From what I can tell, Scan Speak is not selling them anymore. There were two types and both are discontinued items. Some people say you can make them, but how do you know how thick the fiberglass needs to be and how much pressure to be used?



Just did a quick search and I've not contacted them, but it seems that Madisound Speaker still carries them. Pretty cheap, too. I may pick up a few of these and see what they do to a couple of 2x12's.


----------



## thetragichero

keep us up to date on them... i'm sure the 8412 could use a couple of those with those black powders/red white and blues in it

on another note, the texas heat is in the 5e3 combo and sounding great, the legend 1218 is in the kustom 1x12 and has been breaking in for about 14 hours now (i did plug it into the 5e3 before breaking it in and it already sounded sweet)
all my guitar amps/cabs have eminence in them now


----------



## SwaniusMaximus

Hey guys, I'm new here and I have a couple questions.

First, Marty, you've recommended to a couple of people on here to put some fiberglass insulation inside their cabs to reduce standing waves. Would, say, carpet that is 1/2 an inch thick work as well?

Right now I have a Peavey 5150 cab with 2 governors hooked up and 2 carvin speakers unhooked and just holding the space until I get another pair of eminence speakers to stick in there. Would adding the insulation/carpet to my cab increase the bass response or change the tone quality noticeably?


----------



## MartyStrat54

While carpet may do something, I don't recommend it. See if you can come up with a piece of fiberglass or Dacron insulation. That's what you need.

Any idea of what you are going to run with the Governors?


----------



## SwaniusMaximus

I was thinking Swamp Thangs to add some good solid low end. It's between those and Texas Heats, but I'm not sure I want the high end sizzle that the heats add.

The thing is, I have a fair amount of unused carpet lying around and I don't like messing with fiberglass, but i guess if it's in the name of good tone...


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are a lead guitarist, the mix of Governor's and Texas Heats are good on a stage with the band. By itself, it is a little heavy in the high end.

I think you would be happy with the Swamp Thangs and they are rated at the same efficiency as the Governor's at 102dB.


----------



## SwaniusMaximus

I guess I would be considered the lead in my band, but I don't really play many full on solos, mostly just simple lead lines. I already feel like my sound is pretty bright, and I'm not sure if I want to add some sizzle to it. Would it change your opinion at all if I told you I'm not using a marshall? I signed up for this forum mostly because of the extremely helpful speaker threads...


----------



## paw

Hey Guys
I’ve gone to the Eminence Site listening to sound Clips for replacement speakers for my 412, Reading spec’s, looking at the pic's 
I like the Cannabis Rex very much, Hillcountry wrote they were a little ice picky before they are broken in, Does anyone have an opinion about these speakers Good or Bad?
Thanks 
Phil


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are great for hot blues and classic rock. Is this what you play?


----------



## Hillcountry

Now they are broken in and with a JTM45 cranked through a pair they sound awesome. Warm, with some low end thump and nice strong mids. Cannabis Rex are a great speaker. I play mostly cranked blues stuff...Trower, Zeppelin type of stuff, and the CRs are killer. I have them paired with Wizards, and it can be a bit overwhelming in the mids when playing alone...in the band, though, the combo sounds great. I love both pairs.
-Hillcountry


----------



## Hillcountry

I might add...they are also a loud efficient speaker. Which is a trait I find useful.


----------



## Michael1987xl

I know there are a number of guys here who, just like me, can't quite warm-up to the Celestion offerings and prefer the higher power handling and "thicker" sound of the Eminence line. I wanted to let you guys know something I was working on "off the board" I thought you might be interested in. A while back, I had asked Marty about the Eminence Modeling 12 and if he had any idea where they might be obtained since Eminence no longer sells them. Those who were interested might recall that Anthony Lucas suggested a couple of models which he felt were close to the Mod 12, but from the spec sheets, they weren't really so close, so I kept looking and came up with the stuff Vader uses.

From some research I've done over the past few months, I was able to pretty much confirm that the speakers Vader Cabinets uses in their cabs as OE are indeed what Eminence used to sell under their own label as the 120W, 8Ω Legend Series Modeling 12, but I still had some doubt. The Vader guys are very nice, but I had to do a little negotiating to get them to agree to sell me some. In fact, when I spoke to the Vader guys, all they would tell me is that they use a custom-made Eminence speaker.

Vader finally priced them @ $50 each for me if I ordered 4 (+ $30 shipping), which made it worth the gamble, so I bought them. I also have an old stock, Modeling 12 I picked up from Luredmaul here on the forum and another one on the way from a guy I know who works at Guitar World and seems to have one of every speaker Eminence ever made (They send them to him, NIB, to review for the magazine). Anyway, I took the gamble and ordered the 4 speakers from Vader a few weeks ago.

I finally got the speakers delivered to me today from Vader and they are _ABSOLUTELY INDEED_ the "out-of-production", 120W, 8 ohm, Legend Mod 12's. As soon as I got the speakers, I opened the boxes, pulled back the rubber gasket Eminence installs around the magnet, and BINGO, there was the tell-tale label in all its clearly printed, no-question-about-it glory.

Bottom line, I'll be able to replace all 6 Celestions I have in my 3 cabs (2 G12H-30's and 4 Hellatone 30's), which I never really cared for anyway, and get back to where I started a couple of years ago. Once I get them all installed an hooked up, I'll run my 1987 through them and report back. 

In case any Celestion fans are interested, I'll have a whole gaggle of speakers for sale real soon...


----------



## paw

Classic Rock and Slow blues, Thanks for the info Guys
in my minds eye a cross between Alvin Lee, Joe Bonamassa
and ZZ Top
Peace

Phil


----------



## paw

Maybe I should say in my Dreams
Phil


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the update Michael.


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for the update Michael.



No problem, Marty. Now for a little more of an update.

I loaded 4 of them into my Univox and Avatar 2x12 cabinets tonight and let my 1987 rip. It was such a pronounced change from the Celestion G12H-30's that it even surprised me. It was unreal! Thick, responsive and LOUD! If anyone has ever told you that a 1987 is too bright to get that "thunder chug" going, tell 'em they need to play one through these beasts. Whack the equalization a little bit, and the highs will tear your head off. There's NO going back to the Celestions ever again for me! 

As soon as I get the 2nd Univox cab I have all cleaned up, I'll load the last 2 in there, replace the Avatar cab and use that with my Univox head in the living room. With this set up, I just won't miss a full stack.

In the interest of full disclosure, Marty had expressed some concern after I had sent him the Eminence data sheet for the Mod 12, in so far as there is something of a dip on the graph at 1.5KHz. Don't let that graph fool you, though; that dip doesn't sound nearly as pronounced as you would think. Yes, the graph shows it, but you really don't hear it. I can't wait to really get these broken in and see what the entire combination can really do; even though everything's a little tight right now, they're still amazing. This was definitely the right move for me. Again, though, I gotta give a shout out to the dialing in on the amp with the KT77's that Lane Sparber did for me. Marshall may have made the amp roar, but Lane got it to sing. Anyone in the NYC area should have no hesitation whatsoever about going to Lane with their rig and letting him have at it.

As for the Mod 12's, again, believe me when I tell you, whatever your amp and guitar are _actually_ doing, these speakers let you hear it with VERY little coloring. At $50 each, how can anybody who digs what Eminence speakers can do say "no"?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for sharing the comments.


----------



## javier pintos

i could use something better than my stock speaker for an AVT50, tried the V30 and it rocks, i would like to try something more in the green back type with 100 db and 4 ohms any suggestions?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What hurts your choices is the four ohm requirement. Eminence makes one speaker that has a British flavor and four ohm rating. That is the Texas Heat4.

The Private Jack is the clone of the Green Back. It is rated at 50 watts RMS. It is available in 8 or 16 ohms.


----------



## DragonSarc

hey guys whats the comparison of the man o war eminence on 10 inch speaker? I love the sound of the man o war and wonderin if theres a 10 inch version of it, i tired lookin at the graphs on eminence but it doesnt look the same.


----------



## javier pintos

MartyStrat54 said:


> What hurts your choices is the four ohm requirement. Eminence makes one speaker that has a British flavor and four ohm rating. That is the Texas Heat4.
> 
> The Private Jack is the clone of the Green Back. It is rated at 50 watts RMS. It is available in 8 or 16 ohms.


 

thanks i actually downloaded some samples from eminence i think i´m liking the wiward, and at 103 db will be like having a 100 db at 4 ohm so i think i could be covered on loudness, and still gives me the chance to use an additional ext cab, the descriptions sounds like a g12h30 anniv so i guess i´ll just have to try them any of those coices sound like they would be better than the stock avt


----------



## MartyStrat54

You are right. A Wizard is the clone of a G12H30.


----------



## Tim.

MartyStrat54 said:


> I need to do a little posting so this thread doesn't die. If you have any speaker info or links you would like to share please post them to this thread.
> 
> I think it's a shame that new speaker question are posted in new threads, when they could be asked here and I would be glad to help you.
> 
> If you have any speaker questions, fire away.



hi Marty

i have been reading your thread trying to understand what i need to in order to build myself a 2 x 12 cab (possibly two of them) to go along with my 3210 marshall lead 100 mosfet amp. 

being pretty new to electric guitars, i lack much of the dialogue needed to comprehend many aspects of what is going on around here  

when i picked up the amp, it came with a PA cab with a new EVM-15L Series II 15" speaker. the cab is going away to be replaced with something that is not so huge.

can this speaker be used effectively for guitars. i ask just incase it could be an option to a 2 x 12 cab set-up.

i primarily play classic rock and grunge. 

thanks
tim


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello TIM. Yes, the EVM-15L is the Electro-Voice equivalent to a JBL E-130. It can be used as a guitar speaker. It will have stronger mids. Great for low tunings and 7-string guitars. The EVM-15L can be used in either an open back or sealed cabinet.


----------



## Tim.

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello TIM. Yes, the EVM-15L is the Electro-Voice equivalent to a JBL E-130. It can be used as a guitar speaker. It will have stronger mids. Great for low tunings and 7-string guitars. The EVM-15L can be used in either an open back or sealed cabinet.



thank you marty! i like to drop my GLP down a step. i think i will build a box for this thing first before the 2x12.

EDIT: dang, this is an 8 ohm speaker and the amp is a 4 ohm /16 ohm. seems like i read somewhere that i can run a 8 ohm on a ss amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're welcome. Are you planning on building a sealed back cab?


----------



## Tim.

MartyStrat54 said:


> You're welcome. Are you planning on building a sealed back cab?



i don't know. it seems there is a large amount of personal preference involved in the decision. since i have nothing to base that on, i want to find some dimensions and build to sealed specs and have an open back and a sealed one to swap in.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Tim I have heard of folks building 2x12's and 1x12's with a 2 piece back..so they can take one half off to do an open back when they want to.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, they're called convertibles.


----------



## Wycked Lester

Isn't it weird......





......how speakers work....


----------



## Tim.

chuckharmonjr said:


> Tim I have heard of folks building 2x12's and 1x12's with a 2 piece back..so they can take one half off to do an open back when they want to.



thats a great idea! thank you.

do you guys think it would be okay to run that 15" 8 ohm speaker on my solid state marshall lead 100? it has a 4 ohm and a 16 ohm jack. 

i guess this would be the deciding factor on my next move.

my class 5 has a 16 ohm jack too.

EDIT: i think i answered my own question about the 4/16 ohm thing. been reading up and trying to learn a thing or two. i am still sort of korn-fuzed tho...


----------



## weslee1

Sorry if this a noobish question, and I didn't want to start a new thread for it. 

Does the cab model matter if you have good speakers? For example, is a jcm 2000 cabinet with greenbacks the same as an mg cab with the same speakers? Thanks


----------



## Wycked Lester

weslee1 said:


> Sorry if this a noobish question, and I didn't want to start a new thread for it.
> 
> Does the cab model matter if you have good speakers? For example, is a jcm 2000 cabinet with greenbacks the same as an mg cab with the same speakers? Thanks



yes, it matters
no, they arent the same


----------



## weslee1

Could you please tell me how?


----------



## Hillcountry

They are constructed out of differing materials and their dimensions are not the same. MG cabs are smaller so they tend to not have quite as much thump. Compare sizes at an online shop...they will have all of that stuff under "specs."


----------



## MartyStrat54

The cheaper cabs are smaller and they do not have a plywood shell. They are mostly made of particle board and really aren't that gig worthy. They tend to crack and fall apart. They are great for sitting in a room and playing through. Like the guys said, the smaller cabs lack the low end thump of the larger 412 cabs.


----------



## cylon185

*Speaker Mix*

Hi guys,

Sorry for the double post, I should have thought about this thread first.

OK, if you had :
* two V30s
* two H30s (anniv)
* two Greenbacks
* two T75s

for a 1982A and a 1935B (both 4x12)

what mix would you choose.

I like my 1982 with V30xT75, but it sounds like v30xh30 is the way to go.
Would a t75xGB sound good then ?

Or is it better to keep my v30xt75 as is and put the GBxH30 in the 1935B ?

Any opinions welcome !!!

Cyril


----------



## MartyStrat54

All I can tell you to do is try them together and see if you like them. The G12H-30's have a little more low end then the GB's. They are both about the same efficiency rating so that's a plus.


----------



## cylon185

Alright, here is what I'm gonna try.
I just discovered they sell packages like this (the top one is metal, the bottom is blues/rock)






Only difference is i'll cross them.

Cheers


----------



## Wycked Lester

i got a speaker question for ya'all

whats the difference between vintage 30's and G12H 30's ?


----------



## Wycked Lester

.....and also,....my cab has "marshall vintage 30's" ,...are these the same as celestions?


----------



## cylon185

vintage 30's => 60W
G12H 30 => 30W


----------



## Wycked Lester

cylon185 said:


> vintage 30's => 60W
> G12H 30 => 30W



do the GH's sound closer to a green back? are they even brigher yet than the vintage 30's?


----------



## cylon185

Dont know yet


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wycked Lester said:


> .....and also,....my cab has "marshall vintage 30's" ,...are these the same as celestions?



Should be the same as 60 watt Celestion V30's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wycked Lester said:


> do the GH's sound closer to a green back? are they even brigher yet than the vintage 30's?



G12H30's have a little more top end sizzle compared to a Green Back.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Don't the G12H sound warmer and have more bottom end than the G12M?


----------



## Wycked Lester

cool, thanks for clearing that up...

one more question ,,..how is a 1982 cab different from a 1960?


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Don't the G12H sound warmer and have more bottom end than the G12M?



I don't know if you would call it warmer. It is definitely a speaker with more high end. And yes, a G12H does have more bottom end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wycked Lester said:


> cool, thanks for clearing that up...
> 
> one more question ,,..how is a 1982 cab different from a 1960?



I believe the 1982 is a little bigger than the 1960. It used a bigger brace. The 1982's go for big money.


----------



## Wycked Lester

thanks,'

were the 1982's the "standard" back in the day, or were they like a more "upscale" cab?

......maybe I should do the google,...ya kinda got my wheels turning now....lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think it was the standard cab back in the late 60's. There isn't a lot of info on them.


----------



## Wycked Lester

holy shit fuck,....my wheels just came to a grinding halt.

Marshall 1971 Model 1982A 4X12 Cab Pre-Rola Greenbacks - eBay (item 300436750284 end time Jan-07-11 17:45:09 PST)


----------



## Tim.

ok, another question or two for you. i am looking for some clarity...

i have that 15" ev i asked about recently. it is an 8 ohm speaker. since i should try to get my cab into the 16 ohm range for the output on my class5 (it will also work either way on the 3210, i would like to use it with both amps) could i pair it with a 10" speaker in the same cab? 
i am guessing that this might give me the higher end and get my cabinet to the desired ohmage while having a greater range of bass. 
my concern, because i don't yet know squat about speakers... will the 15" overpower the 10" (8', 12" or whatever i put in there with it)?

getting confused again, i better stop and wait for some knowledge to appear before i try to think again


----------



## Wycked Lester

you cant get a 16 ohm load with a 8 ohm speaker,....you could put both in one cab, yes. ....but if the 15 is 8 ohm, and the 10 is 8 ohm, then you could wire it to be 8 ohm total or 4 ohm total, but not 16.


----------



## blackone

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Hello. This is another catch all thread about speakers. I have a lot of experience with all sorts of speakers. This thread may work and it may dive, but at least I will know that I've tried.
> 
> This thread is about sharing info on how all guitar/bass speakers sound, whether they be Celestion, Eminence, Weber, Tone Tubby, etc.
> 
> Not all Celestions sound that good, especially by themselves. This is the latest trend in the speaker business, mating two different sounding speakers together. Eminence is now selling a variety of Tone Packs. These can be seen at Guitar Center and Musician's Friend.
> 
> Here are some of my speakers mods. I have installed an Eminence Red Fang alnico speaker in one of my DSL401. The other 401 has a JBL D123 in it.
> 
> In one ot my 602's, I have two Altec 417's and in the other 602, I have two JBL D123's.
> 
> The JBL's are 1961 models and the 417 is from 1972. Here are some pics.*
> 
> 
> Right now, I am experimenting with some Eminence Delta Pro 12A's. These are actually mid PA drivers, but they make killer guitar or bass speakers. They are good down to 52Hz and start to roll off at around 4.5K. They are a neutral speaker and do not add any coloration to the amp. I'm finding that with a Marshall head like a TSL100, this is a good thing. The amp is more articulate and ballsy on its own. These speakers trim out some of the harshness associated with these amps.[/B]
> 
> Web link for info on Eminence Delta Pro 12A (12-inch):
> Eminence - The Art and Science of Sound
> 
> *Please add your comments about your favorite speaker. I would really like to meet some members who have a background in old JBL and Altec speakers, as well as Utah, Heppner and others.
> 
> More to come as I get situated.*



Nice Thread guys, really interesting stuff!!

I have a question, does running the same amount of power through a different number of speakers change the perceived output? That is to say if I run my 50 watt head through a 4x12 it's as loud as all hell, but if I plugged it into a 2x12 cabinet would the volume be changed, or even through a 1x12? I have an MG15MS11 mini stack that I use for ultra quiet practicing and teaching that sounds pretty good with manageable volume through the two cheap 8 inch speakers that it comes with, but I've plugged it into my 1960 cab and it seems to gain a tremendous amount of power, however shitty it sounds. I realize that a 4x12 cab can push a boat-load more air than a 1x12, but would that be enough to tame a great hulking 100 watt beast?


----------



## Tim.

Wycked Lester said:


> you cant get a 16 ohm load with a 8 ohm speaker,....you could put both in one cab, yes. ....but if the 15 is 8 ohm, and the 10 is 8 ohm, then you could wire it to be 8 ohm total or 4 ohm total, but not 16.


Dang, so much for that idea. I liked the idea of duality... The class5 wants a 16 ohm load, perhaps I just need to start over with a new speaker. A friend thought I should try to use the 15" EV somehow.


----------



## Tim.

I just noticed the speaker wiring thread that shows that I can wire up two 8 ohm speakers in a series to make a 16 ohm load. That looks like what I need. 

There is so much info around here it is mind boggling, takes a while to find my way around here  thanks


----------



## Wycked Lester

Tim. said:


> I just noticed the speaker wiring thread that shows that I can wire up two 8 ohm speakers in a series to make a 16 ohm load. That looks like what I need.
> 
> There is so much info around here it is mind boggling, takes a while to find my way around here  thanks



Well i think thats wrong. BUT i am NOT a tech.....I think i would wait for one of the techs to answer that question....

or pm HotTubes, Wilder, JMCJMP, MartyStrat,...one of those guys will tell you FOR SURE


----------



## Tim.

Ok. I still haven't bought supplies for this project yet. I bet Marty peeks in here soon enough to palaver.


----------



## Hillcountry

Two 8 ohm speakers in series would be 16 ohms. 

With resistors (essentially what a speaker is) you add the impedance when you wire in series.

The formula would be this:
Series: R+R = 8+8 = 16

Parallel: 1/((1/R)+(1/R)) = 1/ ((1/8)+(1/8)) = 1/(2/8) = 8/2 = 4

I hope this helps!
-Hillcountry


----------



## Wycked Lester

Hillcountry said:


> Two 8 ohm speakers in series would be 16 ohms.
> 
> With resistors (essentially what a speaker is) you add the impedance when you wire in series.
> 
> The formula would be this:
> Series: R+R = 8+8 = 16
> 
> Parallel: 1/((1/R)+(1/R)) = 1/ ((1/8)+(1/8)) = 1/(2/8) = 8/2 = 4
> 
> I hope this helps!
> -Hillcountry



something tells me thats wrong.....

i have a 4x12 that has 4-16 ohm speakers and its a 16 ohm cab.,...not 64 ohm.

I think that 2 8ohm speakers wired one way is 8 ohms and the other way its 4 ohms.

I could be wrong, I don't think i am, but i could be,....like i said im no tech.....but just pm marty or he'll be by soon. 

I'D RATHER BE WRONG THAN SORRY.....


----------



## Tim.

Hillcountry said:


> Two 8 ohm speakers in series would be 16 ohms.
> 
> With resistors (essentially what a speaker is) you add the impedance when you wire in series.
> 
> The formula would be this:
> Series: R+R = 8+8 = 16
> 
> Parallel: 1/((1/R)+(1/R)) = 1/ ((1/8)+(1/8)) = 1/(2/8) = 8/2 = 4
> 
> I hope this helps!
> -Hillcountry



Okay, 
Cool, that's what I wanted to know. Most guys are pairing up cabs or four plus speakers. I have been wading through threads looking for my info and I feel my brain swelling with lots of new to me facts.

Thanks
Tim


----------



## Hillcountry

The formulas are not wrong...your 16 ohm cab is wired in series/parallel.

You have two speakers in series for a 32 ohm load from each pair, and those pairs are then wired in parallel with each other. That brings you back to 16 ohms.

If I could draw...I could be of more help here. 

But what you have is 4 speakers at 16 ohm. They are paired in series. 16+16 and 16+16

Those two pairs are then wired in parallel so it looks like this: 1/((1/32)+(1/32))
Or 1/(2/32)=32/2=16. 

Having 4-16 ohm speakers in a 16 ohm cab makes perfect sense. It works the same with 8 ohm cabs. 

Wycked you are right. If all were wired in series you'd have a 64 ohm cab, and if all were wired in parallel you'd have a 4 ohm cab. 


-Hillcountry


----------



## Wycked Lester

Thank you for clearing that up for me,....I didn't mean to doubt you It just didn't sound right and I wanted him to be sure before he did it,....cuz it important ya know.

I knew marty would know the answer cuz he's got a ton of posts on this subject, now I know you know your shit to......nice to meet ya.

-WL


----------



## Hillcountry

It is all good man thanks-nice to meet you too! And true enough...Marty is the man.

I love this place!
-Hillcountry


----------



## Tim.

Thanks guys! Time to construct!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Go to this website for all feasible wiring diagrams.

Jumbo Sunshade - Speaker Wiring Diagrams

This is Parallel/Series:






This is Series/Parallel. There is a difference:


----------



## Steve0525

Hey guys! I'm getting ready to re-wire my 70's Marshall 4x12 with G12M's (16 O) which for whatever reason is at 4 ohms. I want it to be 16 Ohms, and was going to use series/Parallel. Would it be smarter to do parallel/series? I want it to be a universal cab for my 800/900. any help is appreacited


----------



## Steve0525

Just opened up my cab, and sure enough, wired Parallel. glad I stopped using it when I did. 4 ohm load on a 4x12....sigh


----------



## Tim.

holy cow there are so many kinds of speakers!
what do you guys suggest for someone who plays stuff like led zep, alice in chains, bonjovi, ac/dc, white stripes, classic rock and grunge stuff?


----------



## JCM900MkIII

I have used Celestion Greenbacks, cane front, 1960B cab. Great midrange, warm bottom, kinda flabby bottom actually, but nice woody tones. Pretty much it for Rock in the 70's to tame down non-master Marshalls.
I have used Celestion G12-65, cane front, 1960A cab. Very midrangey speakers, smooth highs, but I got lost in the mix. I don't see the fascination with these speakers or their high prices on eBay.
I have a Carvin GX412T cab, all marine Baltic birch wood, metal grill, metal handles, black tolex, built like a brick s#&%house, but weighs 95 lbs. Loaded with Celestion Rocket 50's, for some amps these speakers suck, but for a vintage 1986 Carvin X-100B amp they work very well to add some grit to the 6L6GC tubes.
I have the standard Marshall 1960B cab, loaded with Celestion G12T-75's. It has somewhat scooped mids, smooth highs, and tight crushing bottom-end like no other cab. Play my Marshall JCM900 2500 MkIII through this cab and love it.
I really love Eminence Red Coat Wizards, 75w, 3.5 lbs. magnets, 103 dB sensitivity (loud as hell). I have 2 of these in a cab and they are excellent, good tight bottom-end, punchy articulate mids, and smooth highs. Has the best parts of a Greenback and a Vintage 30 combined.
I have played through a friends Marshall 4x12 loaded with all JBL-120L's. Articulate as hell. Duane Allman used cabs like these but they weighed 150 lbs. each. Unless you have roadies breaking their backs loading your stuff, not a good idea.
I used to have a Music Man, 130w, 2x12 Combo, loaded with some type of 
Celestions, I think G12-70's. Hard to overdrive that rig, even with a vintage Tubescreamer.
Never played through Celestion Alnico Blues, not a big fan of the Vox AC30 tone, plus no speaker should cost that damn much.
I heard the Red Coat (George) Lynch Super V12 is a good speaker for blues, but never used them before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Steve0525 said:


> Hey guys! I'm getting ready to re-wire my 70's Marshall 4x12 with G12M's (16 O) which for whatever reason is at 4 ohms. I want it to be 16 Ohms, and was going to use series/Parallel. Would it be smarter to do parallel/series? I want it to be a universal cab for my 800/900. any help is appreacited



Parallel series is fine. Still get the final 16 ohm load. It's always a smart move to test the load of a cab after buying it to know what you have. Glad you caught it when you did.


----------



## Tim.

JCM900MkIII said:


> I have used Celestion Greenbacks, cane front, 1960B cab. Great midrange, warm bottom, kinda flabby bottom actually, but nice woody tones. Pretty much it for Rock in the 70's to tame down non-master Marshalls.
> I have used Celestion G12-65, cane front, 1960A cab. Very midrangey speakers, smooth highs, but I got lost in the mix. I don't see the fascination with these speakers or their high prices on eBay.
> I have a Carvin GX412T cab, all marine Baltic birch wood, metal grill, metal handles, black tolex, built like a brick s#&%house, but weighs 95 lbs. Loaded with Celestion Rocket 50's, for some amps these speakers suck, but for a vintage 1986 Carvin X-100B amp they work very well to add some grit to the 6L6GC tubes.
> I have the standard Marshall 1960B cab, loaded with Celestion G12T-75's. It has somewhat scooped mids, smooth highs, and tight crushing bottom-end like no other cab. Play my Marshall JCM900 2500 MkIII through this cab and love it.
> I really love Eminence Red Coat Wizards, 75w, 3.5 lbs. magnets, 103 dB sensitivity (loud as hell). I have 2 of these in a cab and they are excellent, good tight bottom-end, punchy articulate mids, and smooth highs. Has the best parts of a Greenback and a Vintage 30 combined.
> I have played through a friends Marshall 4x12 loaded with all JBL-120L's. Articulate as hell. Duane Allman used cabs like these but they weighed 150 lbs. each. Unless you have roadies breaking their backs loading your stuff, not a good idea.
> I used to have a Music Man, 130w, 2x12 Combo, loaded with some type of
> Celestions, I think G12-70's. Hard to overdrive that rig, even with a vintage Tubescreamer.
> Never played through Celestion Alnico Blues, not a big fan of the Vox AC30 tone, plus no speaker should cost that damn much.
> I heard the Red Coat (George) Lynch Super V12 is a good speaker for blues, but never used them before.



thank you! i appreciate the first hand knowledge. 
earlier today i ordered the veteran 30s. being my first time i figured i would start small with something that for the most part has good reviews.


----------



## solarburn

JCM900MkIII said:


> I have used Celestion Greenbacks, cane front, 1960B cab. Great midrange, warm bottom, kinda flabby bottom actually, but nice woody tones. Pretty much it for Rock in the 70's to tame down non-master Marshalls.
> I have used Celestion G12-65, cane front, 1960A cab. Very midrangey speakers, smooth highs, but I got lost in the mix. I don't see the fascination with these speakers or their high prices on eBay.
> I have a Carvin GX412T cab, all marine Baltic birch wood, metal grill, metal handles, black tolex, built like a brick s#&%house, but weighs 95 lbs. Loaded with Celestion Rocket 50's, for some amps these speakers suck, but for a vintage 1986 Carvin X-100B amp they work very well to add some grit to the 6L6GC tubes.
> I have the standard Marshall 1960B cab, loaded with Celestion G12T-75's. It has somewhat scooped mids, smooth highs, and tight crushing bottom-end like no other cab. Play my Marshall JCM900 2500 MkIII through this cab and love it.
> I really love Eminence Red Coat Wizards, 75w, 3.5 lbs. magnets, 103 dB sensitivity (loud as hell). I have 2 of these in a cab and they are excellent, good tight bottom-end, punchy articulate mids, and smooth highs. Has the best parts of a Greenback and a Vintage 30 combined.
> I have played through a friends Marshall 4x12 loaded with all JBL-120L's. Articulate as hell. Duane Allman used cabs like these but they weighed 150 lbs. each. Unless you have roadies breaking their backs loading your stuff, not a good idea.
> I used to have a Music Man, 130w, 2x12 Combo, loaded with some type of
> Celestions, I think G12-70's. Hard to overdrive that rig, even with a vintage Tubescreamer.
> Never played through Celestion Alnico Blues, not a big fan of the Vox AC30 tone, plus no speaker should cost that damn much.
> I heard the Red Coat (George) Lynch Super V12 is a good speaker for blues, but never used them before.



Nice report. Thanx for posting.

Still a great thread Marty!


----------



## KKND

Hello, i need your help please. I am considering the following options for my speakers upgrade, please feel free to suggest otherwise:

a) WGS Veteran 30's (Vintage 30s clone)
b)Veteran 30 and HM75 (G12-T75 clone)
c)Veteran 30 and ET65 (G12-65 clone)

My amp is Blackstar HT Stage 60 2x12 combo with 2xEL34 and 2x Celestion Seventy 80

My sought out tone, style of music
-Metallica (up to The Black Album) plus Megadeth's old stuff.
-Slash
-Blues
-David Gilmour
-Garry Moore

My complaint from my current amp; the bottom end is too flabby and loose when palm muting. Mids n highs too harsh that my ears hurt 

Placed an eq in the loop, unless the highs are boosted a bit, the amp sounds muffed but it is too harsh and brittle.

Thanks you, appreciate your response.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Dunno if any of y'all have seen or posted these yet, but... I thought were some nice speaker comparison demos, so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=jWK0sa7tlfI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=KCJeOPVKn8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=6Bjaw9yuMaw


----------



## rykus

hey everyone, been a while. i just started thinking about building a head/ 2x12 cab for portability. i play mostly drop down to D what cab dimensions would be best, should it be ported? i want to build it out of maple! anyways thanks for the help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

rykus said:


> hey everyone, been a while. i just started thinking about building a head/ 2x12 cab for portability. i play mostly drop down to D what cab dimensions would be best, should it be ported? i want to build it out of maple! anyways thanks for the help!



How about maple veneer plywood. Solid maple would be a lot of work and you wouldn't really gain anything. You want a good void free plywood for the cab shell. The front and back can be high quality MDF or Medite.

Since you drop tune, I would recommend an oversized 212 cab and ported. The speaker I would recommend would be an Eminence Delta Pro. Minimum 1.5 cubic foot of space. 2 would be best, that would be a total of four cubic feet. Some people try to make too small of a cab and then it sounds like crap.


----------



## dragoneti

Hello everybody!
I would like a suggestion regarding some new speaker choices I would like to test with my JVM410 and my USA Charvel San Dimas (JB/59, soon to be altered with a bkp holydiver).

At the moment I have a quad of greenbacks loaded in my 1960A. I like them in general apart some slight problems with them, their flubby bass, that they get slightly muddy under the JVM gain on OD1 orange (gain on 5) and their only 100 watt ability. 

So I’m looking for speakers that have higher watt rating to be used with 100watt amp, they don’t break as much, are tighter than greenbacks and are good for 80s hard rock / hair metal in the likes of van halen, bon jovi, dokken, scorpions, europe etc.

I have used (and still have at my disposal) several speakers:
- The Vintage 30 which have an annoying high mid thing (less when REALLY broken in, but still there) which with my marshall and the JB in the charvel, it gets a little bit too much to bare especially on low volumes.

-The G12T75 which came with the cab but are a bit too scooped and bright.

- The G12H30 70’s anniv (so far my favorites, still being used in another cab) which have at the same time a warmth and brightness, but again a bit too vintage for the gain of JVM and again low watt rating. 

- The CL80 which are not bad again but are too dark and boomy in a quad by themselves (while on the same time bright just like the H30). 

So I’m looking either on a quad of G12-65, Evm12L speakers, Governors or Wizards. I actually have 2 governors, 1 evm12l and 1 wizard (none g1265s and only head samples of them on the net and the fame that they are THE 80s speakers) but due to being less than a quad, they are used either on combo or an engl 2x12 cab and I cannot tell how they will respond by themselves in a quad config on the rear loaded 1960A.

I usually don’t like speaker mixes (I have tried many combinations, none was perfect I always preferred single type speakers).

Ignoring costs, cab weight ect, which of the above 4 would you recommend in a quad configuration for some good all 80s shread guitar sound?

Thank you in advance.


----------



## rykus

hey marty, thanks again for the help!, i want to get a couple boards of flame maple, kind showy..... i like tedious woodwork and fancy wood! i just remembered a while ago i read on this thread you can tune your cabs and port them to accentuate notes! seemed like it made sense. ill probably use some type of ply for the front and put a grill on it but ? i was thinking of trying the blackpowder/ blackmountain speakers and i remember they can be used in larger cabs to get really low end response, i usually play in d, open d and e standard but sometimes drop to c for fun! i really like the tone my little alnico 10" has givin my class 5! thing is a frickin monster practice amp! so i had thought i'd buck up and try the alnico but we'll have to see how the finances go... how'd the new heads work for you?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey rykus. The Wilder modded heads are very sweet. I tend to play the JMP more, even though the 2204 is set up as a switchable two channel. The tone is the real deal.

I haven't used the Black Mountains as they are pretty expensive. I was going to recommend the Black Powders, but in reality, they don't go that low. The Delta Pro's will go much lower in a ported box. The Delta Pro can be used as a bass guitar speaker or as a mid bass in a PA system. In the right box, you can get 45 to 50Hz out of the low end. The Black Powders are going to give you a strong 70Hz.

I have several computer programs for determining port length and size. Once you get your speakers selected and the box size, hit me up and I'll run it and get your port dimensions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

dragoneti said:


> Hello everybody!
> I would like a suggestion regarding some new speaker choices I would like to test with my JVM410 and my USA Charvel San Dimas (JB/59, soon to be altered with a bkp holydiver).
> 
> Ignoring costs, cab weight ect, which of the above 4 would you recommend in a quad configuration for some good all 80s shread guitar sound?
> 
> Thank you in advance.



Try to find yourself a JCM800A or B half stack with G12-65's in it. Or find some raw drivers. WGS makes the ET-65's and Eminence makes the Tonespotter. These are clones of the G12-65's.


----------



## dragoneti

Thank you for your answer!

So g12-65 are the way to go? to find a used cab in greece with them is nearly imposible so its up to seperate new speakers to load my 1960A.

Which would be better, the heritage one or the WSG ET65 (tonespotter is unfortunatelly only 8 ohms)? 

How are they different from let say governors which to my ears are just like high power greenbacks (same mid growl with larger/tighter bass, about the same highs, maybe a bit less)?

I may wait a little as i just saw that celestion introduced in namm the new lynch (yes, yet another endorshement) speaker and as i am a fan of his old sound (his "in my dreams" guitar sound is on of my favorites) so maybe they are just perfect (his "old" eminence super v12 where supposed to be very very good... to bad they only came in 8 ohms and i try to keep the 16 ohms across my cabs)

In the meanwhile i may try some new pickups for my charvel for i have a feeling that my JB (and its tonal chracteristics and criticisms) has a lot to do with my findings on the many speakers i have used so far as almost all my guitars have them in the bridge position. So i may try a tonezone which i have laying around and a bkp holydiver which has captured my interest for some time now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The G12-65 is my favorite Celestions. They cover a lot of ground. If you have to have 16 ohm clones, the ET-65 is the way to go. I have the Eminence Tonespotters (65 clones) in a cab with Black Powders and it is the best sounding cab I have ever heard. Yeah, it is 8 ohm, but I never use a full stack anymore, so it is more than enough.

I also like the sound of the Governors and the Man 'O Wars (V30 and G12T-75). The MOW's sound much better than stock G12T-75's. They are thicker and punchier. The Governors are very popular. I have a 412 cab with the Governors and the Texas Heats. Either one of these are great, stand alone speakers for a 412 cab. If I were to pick one, I would go with the MOW's.

The reason that the Super V12's where in 8 ohms is because George uses Randall heads and each half stack was wired for 8 ohms and a full stack was 4 ohms. The 4 ohm full stack would pull max power from the Randall head.

I'm not afraid of running an 8 ohm cab. If I needed a full stack, it could still be safely run at a 4 ohm load. 

Thanks for letting me know that George has switched over to a different SIG speaker. Has he also switched back over to Marshall amps?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey DRAGONETI, I thought you might also be interested in these. They are similar to the Eminence Delta Pro's as far as frequency response. They only come in 8 ohms.



Michael1987xl said:


> I know there are a number of guys here who, just like me, can't quite warm-up to the Celestion offerings and prefer the higher power handling and "thicker" sound of the Eminence line. I wanted to let you guys know something I was working on "off the board" I thought you might be interested in. A while back, I had asked Marty about the Eminence Modeling 12 and if he had any idea where they might be obtained since Eminence no longer sells them. Those who were interested might recall that Anthony Lucas suggested a couple of models which he felt were close to the Mod 12, but from the spec sheets, they weren't really so close, so I kept looking and came up with the stuff Vader uses.
> 
> From some research I've done over the past few months, I was able to pretty much confirm that the speakers Vader Cabinets uses in their cabs as OE are indeed what Eminence used to sell under their own label as the 120W, 8Ω Legend Series Modeling 12, but I still had some doubt. The Vader guys are very nice, but I had to do a little negotiating to get them to agree to sell me some. In fact, when I spoke to the Vader guys, all they would tell me is that they use a custom-made Eminence speaker.
> 
> Vader finally priced them @ $50 each for me if I ordered 4 (+ $30 shipping), which made it worth the gamble, so I bought them. I also have an old stock, Modeling 12 I picked up from Luredmaul here on the forum and another one on the way from a guy I know who works at Guitar World and seems to have one of every speaker Eminence ever made (They send them to him, NIB, to review for the magazine). Anyway, I took the gamble and ordered the 4 speakers from Vader a few weeks ago.
> 
> I finally got the speakers delivered to me today from Vader and they are _ABSOLUTELY INDEED_ the "out-of-production", 120W, 8 ohm, Legend Mod 12's. As soon as I got the speakers, I opened the boxes, pulled back the rubber gasket Eminence installs around the magnet, and BINGO, there was the tell-tale label in all its clearly printed, no-question-about-it glory.
> 
> Bottom line, I'll be able to replace all 6 Celestions I have in my 3 cabs (2 G12H-30's and 4 Hellatone 30's), which I never really cared for anyway, and get back to where I started a couple of years ago. Once I get them all installed an hooked up, I'll run my 1987 through them and report back.
> 
> In case any Celestion fans are interested, I'll have a whole gaggle of speakers for sale real soon...


----------



## dragoneti

Thank you again for your answers!

The reason that i'm looking at 16ohm speakers is simply due to the fact that 99% of my speakers are at that ohms so combinations or full stack configs are easy. The jvm otherwise is more than capable of running at 4ohm loads.

Yes lynch has switched companies for his new signature speakers, (no info on amps but then again i hear he is still using his plexi & soldano amps a lot) of course noone knows what that will sound, my guess is something along a mix of greenback, g12-65 and V30 by the descrition they published which may be exactly the speaker for my application. His super v12 was supposed to be pretty good, all reviews i have seen where favorable and sound clips where again very good. Had they being 16ohms and more readily available (well of course not in Greece, although eminence is the only speaker company with an official dealer, but even on the famous EU e-shops i might have gotten a quad to test them)

Apart from the g12-65 and the new lynch speaker that hopefully soon we will have more details, if i go on single speaker quad config (i have tested the folowing combinations t75/v30, v30/h30, m25/h30, cl80/v30 and prefered the single versions, i haven't of course used the gov/mow combo which i hear is the to go config for splawn amps which have similar voicing with marshalls) between the governor and the man of war, you recomment the MOW for my application? Does the MOW have more mids than the T75? An t75 with slight less highs and bit more mids would be perfect i always tought.

I may sit today and change the JB in my charvel with a tonezone i have here next to me, as i have i feeling that JBs in my guitars have a lot to do with my not liking of such many classic speakes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes a pickup will make a huge difference in how the speaker sounds. The MOW is much stouter in the midrange and has crunchy highs. I call it a punchy speaker. It really has good low end and mids. The high end is more than good. To me, it sounds a lot different than a G12T-75.


----------



## dragoneti

Just finished installing the tonezone in my charvel so afterwards (it is still early in the morning to start playing, in a couple of hours it should be fine) some speaker testing will be in order.

Good to hear about the MOW that have more mids than the t75. I always though that some more mids in that speaker and it would be perfect!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I use two MOW's in my TSL122. That is one loud, ballsy open back amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

I just changed out two of my Emience Legends in my Soldano Cab for 2 V30s.. Wow.. What a great mix.. The V30's bring a nice Mid punch.. I am liking this,..


----------



## AudioWonderland

I tried to get through 33 pages looking for an answer but did not see one so please forgive if this has been addressed already. 

What speaker would be the best choice for a cab that needs to work with both vintage Marshall and Fender amps?


----------



## MartyStrat54

How big of a cab and what power are the amps?


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> How big of a cab and what power are the amps?



100w Plexi
50w jmp
50w Bassman
Vibrolux Reverb
Deluxe reverb

I don't run the Plexi's past 5. I prefer them clean with pedals in front. Usually a Guv'nor, Fulldrive2 or a Reverend Drivetrain II

The cab is a Randall Iso Cab. 1x12. The 16ohm Greenback does well with the Marshall's but at 16ohm is a problem with the fenders both electronically and likely tonally.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Eminence makes a good sounding speaker that is high wattage and 4 ohms call the Texas Heat 4.


----------



## Jack92CH

Anyone ever mixed G12T-75s with Greenbacks or a Greenback equivalent? I love the sound of both and seem to me they would sound great with each other.


----------



## Jack92CH

I was also thinking about the G12H30 speakers. I've asked this around the forum before but does anyone know how the G12M and G12H compare other than power rating? I've only played G12Ms out of the two, but I need something that can handle a 100W head.


----------



## thetragichero

MartyStrat54 said:


> Eminence makes a good sounding speaker that is high wattage and 4 ohms call the Texas Heat 4.


 i know i said it in the other thread, but i'll say it again: this speaker sounds great for my dsl and 5e3 clone


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jack92CH said:


> Anyone ever mixed G12T-75s with Greenbacks or a Greenback equivalent? I love the sound of both and seem to me they would sound great with each other.



I try not to push certain speakers on anyone. When mixing speakers, it is best to try them out yourself. If you have the chance to do so, I would recommend that you do. If you are happy enough with them, then go with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jack92CH said:


> I was also thinking about the G12H30 speakers. I've asked this around the forum before but does anyone know how the G12M and G12H compare other than power rating? I've only played G12Ms out of the two, but I need something that can handle a 100W head.



Is it a 412 cab? If so, the G12H will work. The G12M will be pushed by a 100 watt amp. However, some player's prefer this over driven sound. These are both different sounding speakers. The 12H is more of a creamier overall tone. It exudes thick,syrupy tones with a deep,growling bottom end.

Tone wise, the G12H uses a medium weight magnet to produce a sound that is smooth and warm but bright enough to hold its own against any rock backline. The G12H is characterized by a warm, controlled low-end, a rich, vocal mid-range and a delicate, detailed top-end.


----------



## AudioWonderland

4ohm Texas Heats are proving to be hard to come by. Anyone know who has them?


----------



## thetragichero

Let me google that for you


----------



## CaptainBeyond

Yeah Marty you sure do have a way with words. You sound like you're describing a hot broad. I have a 4x12 set of those G12H's working with a 100 watt VM. It's everything you said and more.


----------



## MM54

SPL question for Marty.

Today I was listening to music, and decided to have some fun. Setting my volume to make the needles on the poweramp read exactly 1W/ch at peaks, I pulled out my SPL meter and stood where the music sounds best (making pretty much a triangle between me and the two speaker cabinets, about a meter away from either of them). I was getting 108dB peaks. Now, with this stereo, I can get 200W/ch easily, but I don't like knocking stuff off the walls downstairs and pissing off the entire neighborhood. How many dB would this be putting out at maximum volume, say 250W/ch?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I find it hard to believe that the stereo is putting out 108dB per one watt. But for the sake of your experiment we will say that it is.

1W=108dB
2W=111db
4W=114dB
8W=117dB
16W=120dB
32W=123dB
64W=126dB
132W=129dB
250W=131dB
264W=132dB


----------



## rykus

well after much deliberation i decided i would go with the black mountain speakers for my 2x12 build. i have a pile of sweet maple coming in and a phaez dumble/jtm clone using 6v6 power section! i still have a couple sets of NOS tubes from the silvertone my mom threw out when i was younger.... can't wait! i'm going to try and do an oversize cab and port it, so i can get good bass and lift the speakers up abit so they project... i even thought of doing a top cab style but i think i may have to offset the speakers depending how the wood dimensions work out, anyways i'll post up pics when it starts getting interesting!


----------



## MM54

My meter may be a bit or a lot out of calibration, but nonetheless, thanks Marty! Is it just linear like that, every doubling of watts is a 3dB increase? I thought there was more to it, but I'm probably wrong 

(Keeping in mind this was 1W/ch, so two sets of speakers (JBL L-150's) getting their watt)


----------



## gabe9842

Hi!

Im looking for a used Marshall 1960 av cabinet somewhere around Bristol or Taunton, UK.
If anyone knows someone who wants to sell a cab like this in good condition and with wheels and loaded with v30's, please let me know.

Many thanks!

Gabe


----------



## Ewlman

Hi! 
Great thread, this forum's the best!

Has anyone tried combining the Celestion G12T-75 & the G12H? I really like the sound of the G12H and I would like to introduce some smooth & sweet mids to my sound. What do you think guys? 

btw. I'm playing a Les Paul through my -87 2555...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like the G12H and the G12-65. That's a good mix.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Ewlman said:


> Hi!
> Great thread, this forum's the best!
> 
> Has anyone tried combining the Celestion G12T-75 & the G12H? I really like the sound of the G12H and I would like to introduce some smooth & sweet mids to my sound. What do you think guys?
> 
> btw. I'm playing a Les Paul through my -87 2555...



I think that a G12T-75 is the last speaker I would pick to add smooth and sweet mids to my sound. That speaker is quite scooped in the mids to my ear


----------



## Ewlman

AudioWonderland said:


> I think that a G12T-75 is the last speaker I would pick to add smooth and sweet mids to my sound. That speaker is quite scooped in the mids to my ear



Woops! I might not have been as clear as I should have... I'm thinking of putting two G12H in each my 1960 cabs to sweaten it up.


----------



## Ewlman

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like the G12H and the G12-65. That's a good mix.



Hmmm, well if I going to change all the speakers in my stack I'll have to give up beer drinking for quite some time... What would G12-65s paired with G12T-75s sound like? I've previously tried to find decent demos of the G12-65s but without any success. 

The thing is: I play both high gain death/trash metal and classic rock 'n' roll, I use different amps but the same cabs. The G12T-75s work great for death/trash but they're lacking those rockin' mids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you have them, try them. Let your ears be the judge. Personally, I am not a big fan of G12T-75's. However, Marshall has used a boatload of them in their cabinets.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wouldn't pair up G12-65's with G12T-75's. I can appreciate that you are on a budget. Trying out speakers can be very expensive. I spent over $2000 early last summer on speakers to experiment with. The best overall cabinet I came up with is the Eminence Black Powder mixed with some Tonespotters. This is the fattest, sweetest tone I have found. The only drawback is that these speakers only come in 8 ohm, so a 412 cab is 8 ohm. I don't use a full stack, so this is a win-win for me.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Ewlman said:


> Woops! I might not have been as clear as I should have... I thinking of putting two G12H in each my 1960 cabs to sweaten it up.



OK, that I can support as a good option. Just about anything would help with the mids of the 75's in that case. I am not a fan of V30's alone but the big mids of a V30 might be a good match with the 75's but I have never tries


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wouldn't pair up G12-65's with G12T-75's. I can appreciate that you are on a budget. Trying out speakers can be very expensive. I spent over $2000 early last summer on speakers to experiment with. The best overall cabinet I came up with is the Eminence Black Powder mixed with some Tonespotters. This is the fattest, sweetest tone I have found. The only drawback is that these speakers only come in 8 ohm, so a 412 cab is 8 ohm. I don't use a full stack, so this is a win-win for me.



I am looking for a tonespotter myself for my ISO cab. I like its overdriven sound a great deal. Texas Heats for cleans. I think something like the classic lead 80 might be a good option as well


----------



## Ewlman

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wouldn't pair up G12-65's with G12T-75's. I can appreciate that you are on a budget. Trying out speakers can be very expensive. I spent over $2000 early last summer on speakers to experiment with. The best overall cabinet I came up with is the Eminence Black Powder mixed with some Tonespotters. This is the fattest, sweetest tone I have found. The only drawback is that these speakers only come in 8 ohm, so a 412 cab is 8 ohm. I don't use a full stack, so this is a win-win for me.



Well, you might have a good point there; pairing up G12-65's with speakers roughly half their price maybe wouldn't be that fair to those G12-65's...  Ideally I would have two stacks - one vintage and one more modern sounding. I guess I'll have two rob a bank (since when is that illegal anyway?) or save up some money and split up my full stack into two half stacks... :Ohno:

Btw. there's a downloadable soundclip or something on Celestions homepage demoing the G12-65 speakers... When looking for something it's always in the most obvious place you can't think of


----------



## Ewlman

AudioWonderland said:


> OK, that I can support as a good option. Just about anything would help with the mids of the 75's in that case. I am not a fan of V30's alone but the big mids of a V30 might be a good match with the 75's but I have never tries



Yeah, I've thought of pairing up with some V30s too... the V30s I've heard sounded kinda sharp and edgy in the upper mids though, it may have been because they were not broken in yet (played through for approx. 3-5 h).


----------



## solarburn

Marty have you taken a listen to these WGS G12C speakers yet?

https://wgs4.com/content/g12c

Usually I go for the British flavored speaker but these clips have a great crunch go'n on. Lead notes sound great too. What ya think?


----------



## solarburn

Ooh! This Alnico sounds bad ass too! A lot like the G12C ceramic only much more espensive. $76 compared to the Alnico's $225. I'm think'n between these 2 I could be happy with the Ceramic...LOL!

I'm not buy'n. Just listen'n...

https://wgs4.com/content/g12a


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the "C" sounds pretty good for a small magnet, seamed cone speaker. The "A" doesn't justify its price. I've heard better alnico speakers, but it's not bad. I think $76 for the "C" might be a tad too high for what they are. In that price range, I like the Eminence Legends series, but then you know I like Eminence.


----------



## Hillcountry

Alright...I have officially given up on the Wizards...

But, since I love the Cannabis Rex so much, I am going to pull the trigger on two Canis Major speakers. Hemp cone with AlNiCo compression. I think that will have to be it for a while though. The JTM-45 with the CR is really a sweet combo. So we'll see what happens with the CM. They should be in by the end of the week.

-Hillcountry


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! You are going high dollar aren't you? I would like to try the Black Mountains out, but I blew a lot of cash on speakers already.

What made you dislike the Wizards? Harshness?


----------



## Hillcountry

Yeah...they are way to harsh. Instant ear fatigue. I guess they are not a good match with the JTM45. I'll keep them around and try to break them in as much as I can, but they do not pair well with that amp. Strangely, with a Strat, it sounded OK at lower volumes, but the Les Paul sounded awful. So they have got to go. MF has the Canis Major for 185, which seems like a good price so I thought I'd go for those. We'll see what my wife thinks. I want to compare them to the Cannabis Rex. The CRs sound great with the JTM and I was thinking the CMs would sound better. I sold off a bunch of stuff to finance the purchase otherwise I would not have bought them. 

Now I wait for the delivery!
-Hillcountry


----------



## MartyStrat54

I look forward to your review on the Majors.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had to double check, but all of the Eminence alnico speakers use a 35 ounce magnet. That's a pretty good size magnet, since 30 ounce ceramic is about standard for a lot of rock speakers.


----------



## Hillcountry

That is a pretty substantial magnet for sure. I can't wait for things to arrive!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I recently sold a pair of Altec 417's. These are 12-inch guitar speakers with a huge alnico magnet. I'm talking like five or six pounds. This is the speaker that was used in the early Boogie combos. Carlos Santana uses them as well. 

I decided to sell them, because if I was using them and one blew, it would be very costly to repair. I rather go with something I like that is $80 per speaker.


----------



## MM54

So Marty & other speaker gurus, what can you tell me about these? (Massive picture warning)

*Speaker #1:*

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker1-cone-1.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker1-side-1.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker1-magnet-1.jpg

It looks like it's two speakers in one, like a woofer and tweeter. It's really quite interesting, the numbers on the basket and magnet are visible in the pictures. It's 12"


*Speaker #2:*

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker2-cone.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker2-sideandmag.jpg

Looks like a normal 12" speaker, just wondering if you can find any specs on it by the numbers.


*Speaker #3:*

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker3-cone.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker3-magnet.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker3-side.jpg

This is a 15" speaker I believe, it's a bigger than the others and as far as I know the next size up from 12" is 15"  Seems a little thin-coned for as big of a driver as it is. Again, I'm pretty sure all visible marks show up in the pictures.


I've not taken the blacklight to any of these yet, since I can't figure out why my blacklight quit. There may be some hard to read markings I've missed, but let me know if any of you guys know anything about these


----------



## AudioWonderland

I think I am liking the sound of higher wattage speakers. As I work more with the 150w texas heats the dirty tones seem so much cleaner and distinct than lower wattage speakers. I have been looking at speakers with a more "British" flavor. The Legend 1218 and the Eminence Tonespotter are the top runners so far.


----------



## DragonSarc

Need help, are the G12T-75s made in china also now? how do you know if the gt75s are made in chine? thanks


----------



## AudioWonderland

DragonSarc said:


> Need help, are the G12T-75s made in china also now? how do you know if the gt75s are made in chine? thanks



I am pretty certain all of the std production models are made in China now.


----------



## DragonSarc

AudioWonderland said:


> I am pretty certain all of the std production models are made in China now.



so whens the last production in England? how would you know by lookin at the speaker thanks

heres 1


----------



## AudioWonderland

2003/2004 is when they moved I think.


----------



## Hillcountry

The Canis Majors are incredible. Side by side with the Cannabis Rex there is not much of a difference. If I were to be blindfolded...I don't think I could tell the difference. Cranked, the AlNiCo definitely have a different response...a little softer and not as crisp. I am a huge fan. I will keep cranking them to break them in.

I also have a Swamp Thang on the way...thought they looked cool. We'll see how it sounds with the Super lead 6v6 amp.

-Hillcountry


----------



## thetragichero

offtopic, but i wanna hear clips of that superlead 6v6 amp... i LOVELOVELOVE 6v6s!


----------



## Hillcountry

I'll get working on that in the next few weeks.


----------



## solarburn

Hillcountry said:


> The Canis Majors are incredible. Side by side with the Cannabis Rex there is not much of a difference. If I were to be blindfolded...I don't think I could tell the difference. Cranked, the AlNiCo definitely have a different response...a little softer and not as crisp. I am a huge fan. I will keep cranking them to break them in.
> 
> I also have a Swamp Thang on the way...thought they looked cool. We'll see how it sounds with the Super lead 6v6 amp.
> 
> -Hillcountry



I'm interested in hearing more about the Canis Majors as you break them in. 

I'd still like to get a CR sometime for one of my 112 cabs. I'd pull the K100 out and put in the CR and then on my other 112 I'd pull out the Veteran 30 and put in a GB128. That's what I wants to do. Then I'll sell my K100 Dirt Cheap to one of me buddies here. I'm done with it.

Of course this will all happen as soon as I get me a paper route to supplement my primary job. Be'n poor jus slows everything gear related way down...unduh!!!!!!!!!!:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

MATT-
Sorry to take so long to answer. Speaker 1 is a ROLA with a whizzer cone. This is basically a full range speaker and you could use it with a lower wattage power amp.

Speaker 2 has a similar part number, but it is a JENSEN. Looking at the parts breakdown, it has an inch and a half voice coil with a tall winding. This means it may be a bass (MI) speaker. 

The Jensen looks like it has a pretty beefy magnet. I would say good for at least 50 watts.

No PN on Speaker 3, but I would say it is a light duty 15-inch full range speaker by CTS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> The Canis Majors are incredible. Side by side with the Cannabis Rex there is not much of a difference. If I were to be blindfolded...I don't think I could tell the difference. Cranked, the AlNiCo definitely have a different response...a little softer and not as crisp. I am a huge fan. I will keep cranking them to break them in.
> 
> I also have a Swamp Thang on the way...thought they looked cool. We'll see how it sounds with the Super lead 6v6 amp.
> 
> -Hillcountry



Wow! That's a pretty startling statement. The REX is a lot less money. I wonder if I would feel the same way about the Black Powder versus the Black Mountain? I'd love to run a pair of Black Mountains up against some Tonespotters.

Note-There was a recent post where a forum member had stated that he just got a Swamp Thang and it was harsh. I didn't respond to his post, but I do know that I used the Swamp Thang and it sounds pretty good out of the box. It does get smoother once it is broken in. 

Let me hear what you think about the Thang.


----------



## Hillcountry

I read the post about the Thang...and I went for it anyway. I'll have to see how it goes. I think (dangerous) that it will work well.

I guess with the CM vs CR...it is one of those things where I honestly can't really tell the difference. A rough statement for sure since they were twice as much per speaker...and that isn't to say they don't sound awesome. They sound to me like a more broken in cannabis rex. I'll run an experiment this weekend. I'll play through my older Rex...and compare to the CM. Then I'll play through my new Rex and compare. That would be a better way for me to see if my guess here is right. 

The Canis Major is "sweeter" but it is not so different that I can tell...Perhaps someone more discerning would be able to tell, but once I have been playing for 30 min, and my ears are getting tired, they sound the same. 

From what I can tell in sound samples the black mountain and black powder sound very different...The Black Mountains though are 250+ a piece. That is a lot of coin.

-Hillcountry


----------



## Hillcountry

Looking more closely at the Black powder vs Black Mountain...the voice coil, gap and power ratings and response charts are different between the two.

The only difference between the Cannabis Rex and Canis Major are the magnet. Frequency response - power - coil - gap - all the same. Maybe that is why I don't hear much of a difference?


----------



## AudioWonderland

Hillcountry said:


> Alright...I have officially given up on the Wizards...
> 
> But, since I love the Cannabis Rex so much, I am going to pull the trigger on two Canis Major speakers. Hemp cone with AlNiCo compression. I think that will have to be it for a while though. The JTM-45 with the CR is really a sweet combo. So we'll see what happens with the CM. They should be in by the end of the week.
> 
> -Hillcountry



I liked the idea of the g12h / Wizards but after listening to The eminence sample in my studio I ordered the Tonespotter. It seemed very similar in sound but smoother sounding. Should be here in a few days. I will find out if I was right...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Tonespotter is one of my favorites.


----------



## thetragichero

Hillcountry said:


> Looking more closely at the Black powder vs Black Mountain...the voice coil, gap and power ratings and response charts are different between the two.


 i don't know how they compare, but i have 2 black powders and 2 red white and blues in a 28 year old heavy as hell carvin cabinet and that thing SMOKES


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> MATT-
> Sorry to take so long to answer. Speaker 1 is a ROLA with a whizzer cone. This is basically a full range speaker and you could use it with a lower wattage power amp.
> 
> Speaker 2 has a similar part number, but it is a JENSEN. Looking at the parts breakdown, it has an inch and a half voice coil with a tall winding. This means it may be a bass (MI) speaker.
> 
> The Jensen looks like it has a pretty beefy magnet. I would say good for at least 50 watts.
> 
> No PN on Speaker 3, but I would say it is a light duty 15-inch full range speaker by CTS.



Fantastic, thanks! I'll take another look at #3 to see if I can get a part number from hiding. Some day these will find a good use 

Thanks again


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Tonespotter is one of my favorites.



Its shipping today. Should not take too long to get here. Its pretty much impossible to tell how it will react in the ISO cab but I am optimistic. The Green back was pretty damn good but a single 25w speaker driven by a 100w plexi could only end one way. Even 75w is probably pushing it but I am not diming the plexi. Should be OK


----------



## AudioWonderland

EDIT:
After some more work with setup, testing with my other superleads, mic placement adjustments and correcting a small engineering error on my part I will amend my review slightly. The mid scoop is not as pronounced as I was first hearing although it is still there. The result however is a lot less metal/thrash and is more useable for other things. The bone stock SD-1 still is the boost/OD of choice although the others made up a lot of ground as I worked on fine tuning things. So to recap, my original assesment is basically still correct based on my gear andwhat I am hearing but its not nearly as pronounced as I first though. There are definitely dirt flavors available with this speaker but I think the Tonespotter will get me closer to the more vintage Marshall tones I am looking for. I am not much of a fusion player but those warm lead tones those guys get what I am looking for.
/EDIT

Texas Heat Review

While I wait for the Tonespotter I gave my recently aquired Texas Heat a spin with my plexi, a Custom22 Guitar with Duncan Custom Shop Pickups and 6 Drive pedals. 

Pedals tested
Yellow Fuldrive II FM
Marshall Guv'nor 2
Reverend Drivetrain 2
Ibanez Tubescreamer
Boss SD-1
Voodoo Lab Overdrive

The SD-1 was the best recorded sound with this combo to my ear followed by the tubescreamer and the Drivetrain with the TH.

The speaker over all is not fully broken in by any stretch but I think the overall flavor ofthe speaker is still pretty clear. I think the TH would be excellent for metal and Fender cleans. The big firm bass and snappy highs along with the pulled back mids all would serve those applications well. 

I bought the Texas Heat hoping to use it for Fender cleans in my ISO cab and I think it will serve that role quite well. I am not a metal guy it probably won't get a lot of use with the dirst pedals as tested. That said I think it will do well for cleans both with Marshalls and Fender amps.

I suspected this might be the case which is why I ordered the Tonespotter. I needed a more Britsh flavor for the Marshalls and I am really hoping the ToneSpotter is the ticket. I can always go back to the original Greenback I was using but @ 25w I don't think it will hold up too long.


----------



## thetragichero

i pretty much agree with you, except i also like it for fender overdrive sounds as well (at least on my 5e3)


----------



## AudioWonderland

thetragichero said:


> i pretty much agree with you, except i also like it for fender overdrive sounds as well (at least on my 5e3)



I have not plugged in the bassman heads yet. I definitely think this speaker was voiced for fender circuits. At least to me even the name "Texas Heat" brings to mind SRV and those types of sounds.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Eminence speakers seem to be known to be slow to break in. Do you hear a significant change in the first few hours and then a slow refinement or is it truly a slow battle over time?

I am wondering if some of the changes I noticed over the few hours I was playing may have been the speaker working itself in rather than the other changes I made.


----------



## thetragichero

i tried the red white and blues right out of the box and they were shrill
now i'll hook new speakers to the pa with my mp3 player running for a weekend to break them in

so to answer your question.... i don't know; all of mine are pretty broken in before i use them for guitar


----------



## AudioWonderland

Have the itunes PC feeding tunes through it. Probably not all weekend but a few hours at a time at least. Will have another new speaker hear on monday to break in as well


----------



## Mott

Some advise if I could, please. I have an old Carvin 4X12 with G12-50's. One of them blew and my tech told me they didn't make a reconing kit for those anymore. He replaced it with an Eminence Red Coat 50. Is it worth trying to get that G12 reconed? Additionally, would there be any sound advantage to taking 2 of the good ones and replacing the stock speakers in an MC212?


----------



## MartyStrat54

As far as reconing goes, contact Orange County Speakers.

Orange County Speaker Repair - Speaker Brands that we Service


----------



## AudioWonderland

Hammered the Texas Heat for a few hours over the weekend to help break it in. Couple hours of playing and 2-3 hours of music hammering it.

Tonespotter just arrived today. Will replace the TH with it and give it a test drive and break in session.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Looks like I'm getting a 6100LM here soon. I plan to throw in a Black Powder and Tonespotter combo into my 2x12 cab, once I get a chance.


----------



## Hillcountry

OK the Swamp Thang is AWESOME! I am loving it with the 6v6 amp. It has a great thickness in the lower mids and gives a great thump to the sound. It actually gives a very "fendery" sound when I back off the guitar volume (a strat) and becomes more "marshally" when I wind it up on the dial. So it works really well with my set up. the Les Paul through it is thick and awesome. I have not notices a harshness in the mids as some have experienced.

The Canis Majors continue to impress me. I have about 20 hours on them now and they are noticeably smoother than the CR. Now when I switch back and forth between the two there is a difference. They seem to be breaking in faster...or sounding older quicker...whichever floats your boat.

So far...very happy with the patriot line. Less "krang" than the red coat line.

Next up is two ramrods and two copperheads in a 5e5a combo. Ramroda on the bottom for thickness...copperheads on the top for the rip.
-Hillcountry


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Looks like I'm getting a 6100LM here soon. I plan to throw in a Black Powder and Tonespotter combo into my 2x12 cab, once I get a chance.



You won't regret it. 100 percent balls to the wall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hillcountry said:


> OK the Swamp Thang is AWESOME!



When I was making custom cabs, I sold a lot of 212's with Swamp Thangs. They sold themselves.

You are right about the thick mids. Very crunchy.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I am looking at mixing some speakers.. I was thinking of doing a mixture of the Eminence Legends and the Private Jacks.. How would they correspond with each other?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Private Jacks are by themselves a little thin on the low end. Which Eminence Legend? As there are several. Just my opinion, I am not a big fan of the Private Jacks.


----------



## BluesRocker

the 75 watt legends..

Arent the private jacks the greenback clone?


----------



## AudioWonderland

BluesRocker said:


> the 75 watt legends..
> 
> Arent the private jacks the greenback clone?



Yes they are.


----------



## JCarno

Hey guys, just wondering. Is it absolutely necessary to attach those spongey things that come with new speakers.
I installed a new set of WGS Reapers in a 2x12 cab without the sponge. I figured it would be easier to add them later than try to take em off.
The cab sounds fine. I did have to add way more bass and alot less treble to the 1484.
I guess what I'm wondering is are they for protection for the cab, like to keep it from coming apart at the seems.
The cab is a front loaded older Randall that has a bunch of insulation in it. Its hard to tell what it's made of(mdf or plywood).
Ultimately, is it imperative that the sponge be installed or is it ok to leave it off? TIA!


----------



## JCarno

Nevermind.........I answered my own question. At least in this cheap cab, they are necessary. There was a noise whenever I hit a D note that bugged the hell out of me. I couldn't find exactly where it was coming from but after installing the spongeys, it went away. Still not sure what the cab is made of. But I know it's not plywood.
The new speakers sound great btw.I highly recommend the Reapers to anyone lookin for low wattage speakers. Nice and chimey!


----------



## Les Moore

Hi.
Been doing my first own tubechange and biasing and went fantastically well. Now I´m turning my attention to an old cab I made a long time ago. In it are 4 Fane speakers that I never liked, so I want to replace them. As with the world of tubes this is all new to me so I need advice.
I use Strat and Les Paul guitars. I have an Ibanez old Tube screamer. My amps are 1 Marshall 50w from `72 and 1 Super Lead 100w from `69-70. I also have a Marshall cab with 4X12 Greenbacks in it and I like the sound from that one with the Super Lead. So, not knowing that much about speakers, I thought I´d go for another set of greenbacks. But then I read this;

*Right now, I am experimenting with some Eminence Delta Pro 12A's. These are actually mid PA drivers, but they make killer guitar or bass speakers. They are good down to 52Hz and start to roll off at around 4.5K. They are a neutral speaker and do not add any coloration to the amp. I'm finding that with a Marshall head like a TSL100, this is a good thing. The amp is more articulate and ballsy on its own. These speakers trim out some of the harshness associated with these amps.*

Hmm... Marty, by harshness, do you mean the midrange? I´m looking for something with a tight fat bass, not so much mid and clear sparkling top, but not screaming. On my Marshalls I play hard rock with a very distortion-rich heavy sound. For blues and clean sound I turn to my Fender Twin.
I went to one of your links and looked at other Eminence speakers. The Tonespotter seemed interesting to me. Or are the Greenbacks the way to go? I know that, as with tubes, amps and micas, it´s always a matter of taste, but anyway, any advice?


----------



## Les Moore

Forgot to say what I don´t like about the Fane speakers. 
In my opinion they are too grainy (too much mid frequencies) and they are poor in the low and high frequencies. Not much of anything really. 
I´m looking for a tight bass and rich top but smooth. 
Vague description perhaps, but lets see what you think.
All inputs are welcome.


----------



## 00jett

Celestions vs WGS vids anyone!

Vaughn's Musical Notation


----------



## Les Moore

00jett said:


> Celestions vs WGS vids anyone!
> 
> Vaughn's Musical Notation



That was interesting. Considering reproduction of sound through computer, headphones and what not, it still shows a clear difference in sound and I could make choices between the contestants. 
Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Les Moore

Found this. This is a good test I think. I assume everything is the same for every speaker. Like the Celestion Seventy 80 and the Celestion Alnico Gold.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI]YouTube - 15 Speakers compared Celestion vs E.V. vs Eminence vs JBL vs Jensen vs Tone Tubby[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Right now, if you are running a 412 cab and you can get by with an 8 ohm cab, then go with two Black Powders and two Tonespotters. That will give you all sorts of tight bottom end.


----------



## MM54

I have a bunch of parts from an old organ I gutted, and I'm going to try to build a sort of leslie cab for the hell of it, since I think I have all the parts.

What's your suggestion for dimensions of the box to hold the speaker, Marty? Just a 1x12.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A Leslie that works right is made up of several key components. I have never built a Leslie, but I will say that the speaker enclosure needs to be built as a copy of a real Leslie.


----------



## MM54

So... what would you suggest for dimensions for a good sounding 1x12? 

I have the rest all planned out


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it depends on certain parameters. However, 1.5 to 2.2 cubic foot on internal space is a ballpark figure.


----------



## MM54

Sounds good, thanks Marty!


----------



## Salsg

I recently got a 1960 for dirt cheap and it has 75s. I don't like the 75s so I plan on swapping some speakers in. I have speakers I can swap in to make this combo, what do you think? 
V30 & g12-65 on top
G12t-75 and v30 on bottom

I am thinking this will have the base of the v30 tone which I like but add what the v30 is missing


----------



## Salsg

I recently got a 1960 for dirt cheap and it has 75s. I don't like the 75s so I plan on swapping some speakers in. I have speakers I can swap in to make this combo, what do you think? 
V30 & g12-65 on top
G12t-75 and v30 on bottom

I am thinking this will have the base of the v30 tone which I like but add what the v30 is missing


----------



## Salsg

Hmm how'd that double post happen?


----------



## Hillcountry

Are you making the 1x12 closed? If so, Marty's recommendation is good. If you are making it a split/back or open back you can pretty much do whatever you want. 

When I make extension cabs, I usually make them anywhere from 20-22" Wide, 18" tall and 10.5" Deep. I have two back panels with a 3-4" gap between them. It sort of makes a good compromise between the benefits of open and closed back cabs. If you go much smaller than 3" the opening will vibrate with air movement - even with a 1x12.
Or if you close it in there is enough internal volume for a closed back cab (roughly 2.3 cubic feet minus the basket volume of the speaker). 

Often the speaker manufacturer will recommend the internal volume of the cab.
-Hillcountry


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## MartyStrat54

Salsg said:


> I recently got a 1960 for dirt cheap and it has 75s. I don't like the 75s so I plan on swapping some speakers in. I have speakers I can swap in to make this combo, what do you think?
> V30 & g12-65 on top
> G12t-75 and v30 on bottom
> 
> I am thinking this will have the base of the v30 tone which I like but add what the v30 is missing



I'd go with the V30's on the bottom and the 65's on top.


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## MartyStrat54

From Scirocco Guy.

An interesting link I found that compares different Celestions under identical conditions. Watford Valves :: Sound Factory - Listen to our speakers before you buy!

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/29522-celestion-speaker-sound-bites.html


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## LesPaulopolis

Should I go with WGS 65s or something else? Looking for a power-metal sound a la Scorpions and Judas Priest that's less icepick that stock 12-75s.

I like the lows and the mids are 'ok' on the stock 1960a, highs are a little harsh, not that bad.

Really I'm wondering if changing out 2 or 4 will make a 'huge' difference. I'm done with pedals trying to change 'tone' it's all speakers or pickups from here on out. Classic 57's are pretty bright, ebony fretboard is pretty bright, want the thunder...suggestions?

I really like the price of WGS, but are the a big enough improvement? I only want to have to do this once.

Other option is grabbing a 2x12 (loaded or unloaded).

Finally, my cab is from '98 and who knows how much the original owner used it but I've put about 10,000 hours on her so I'd say the 75s are definitely 'broken in'.
Are v30s good for Judas Priest / Scorpions? Will the low-end be too loose?


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## 00jett

Iv played through one ET65 and the only thing I would say about it is I don't know if it is as quick of a speaker as the g12t-75. Its got a smoother tone all across the eq band, but might not thump the same way. Just a thought.


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## MartyStrat54

LES-Picking speakers is about the same as picking pickups. You might not get it right the first time. I do not have any actual flying time with the ET-65, but I have a lot of experience with the Eminence Tonespotter. I have a 4 X 12 Marshall cab loaded with two, Tonespotters and two, Black Powders. Totally awesome sound. The best pairing I have ever found. They sound good for everything I play and should easily handle the Scorps or JP.


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## LesPaulopolis

Thanks for the advice, Marty!!! Eminence do look mighty tasty. I'm giving myself a 'gift' after getting married next week and decided it's gonna be new speakers!


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## MartyStrat54

Congratulations on your marriage.


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## MartyStrat54

I like this page.

Tone Guide | Eminence Speaker


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## chuckharmonjr

Holy dogshit Bro...I hope she's a good one....or your gas days are over...lol...just kidding...Congratulations!


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## LesPaulopolis

lol, She's a good one, we've been together 10 years...making it official!

Marty, given your experience I'm gonna go with that suggestion. Would that pairing make a 16- or 8-ohm mono 4x12?


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## MartyStrat54

LesPaulopolis said:


> Marty, given your experience I'm gonna go with that suggestion. Would that pairing make a 16- or 8-ohm mono 4x12?



I assume you mean the Tonespotter and Black Powder? 

These are only available in 8 ohm. In a mono 4 X 12 cab, they will make an 8 ohm load. I only play with half stacks, so this is not a problem.

I've loaded several 4 X 12 cabs with these speakers and the customer was very happy with the sound.

Note: Eminence speakers take a while to break in. I use a tone generator set at 55Hz and do a 48 hour burn in.


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## LesPaulopolis

Good advice. Yeah, X pattern w/the Tonespotters and Black Powders.

8 ohm mono is fine. I'll never need a full stack. I've also been toying with the idea of building 2 2x12s, one at a time, with one of each speaker.

There are a few unloaded 2x12s locally that I could snag, load with those speakers and test before going whole hog on my 4x12. Also would allow for maximum break-in time.


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## MartyStrat54

Many years ago when I was a young man and playing every weekend, my main rig was two separate 2x12 cabs. This gave me a lot of flexibility.

Now as far as the Black Powders and Tonespotters, I do not use an X pattern. I put the Black Powders on the bottom and the Tonespotters on the top. This seems to work out the best.


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## javier pintos

Hey Marty i did a combination test on the web page of eminence pairing the delta demond and the legend1028k (had a hard time sincronizind the sound on them but finaly did it), my speakers on the computer are good enough to be able to distiguish the different tones ont he speakers, the question is...

I was able to hear the delta demond and the legend1028k sort of compliment each other like a G12H-30 and a V30 compliment each other, am i hearing correctly or is my computer speakers?

I sort of heard the same with the Lil Buddy and the legend but they are further in loudnes to each other that the demon and the legend so i gues the last work better as a couple

yes i´m still looking speakers for the SR


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## MartyStrat54

Yes they match close in SPL output, but the 1028K is more of a replacement speaker for low wattage "toy" amps. Try comparing the Delta Demon with the Copperhead.


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## Hillcountry

Agree with the Delta Demon and Copperhead combo. This is an outstanding mix. The delta demon is kind of dark and the Copperhead is a classic fender/Jensen tone.

Great combo.

I can't recommend the copperhead enough...
-Geoff


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## javier pintos

Thanks i was not comparing to make an either or but a joint purchase to complement each speaker

does the legend then is not a good match to the (0w) SR from your perspective?, all 4 of them would be 70 Watts, what would be your recomendation for the SR?

the copperhead has also been recomended as a good one for the SR, my problem is i don´t have many choices down here (and with the security situation at the border/highways these days, i just rather not streck the luck traveling several times) so i have to rely a lot on peoples experiences an make the most out of the sound examples on the net


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## javier pintos

the 2 db difference should not be that noticeable then? for the demon vs copperhead?


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## Hillcountry

I did two legend 1028's and two copperheads and I thought it made the legends sound a bit anemic. The copperheads had the vintage vibe but more fullness. To me they are the quintessential SR speaker. The 2 db difference won't matter. I might put the Delta demons on the bottom and the copperheads on the top. Then you get the thickness down low and the chime on top. Or the x pattern will work too. I like to mike the back of a super reverb, so I would get a mix either way. 
-Geoff


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## Hillcountry

Oh...I might add. I also did 2 ramrods and to copperheads before I settled on the Legends and Copperheads in the SR. That was a huge mix also.


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## MartyStrat54

Thanks for your input Hill.


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## Hillcountry

My pleasure Marty. I went through so many speakers with that Super Reverb. I ended up converting it to a 60's style floating baffle and speaker config. instead of the offset speaker config of the 70's cabs. After I sold it I missed having a super reverb, so now I have built an amp that is a "normal" channel side only of a Super Reverb, through a 4x10 cab with Ramrods on the bottom, and 2 Weber Ceramic Sig 10s on the top. When I crank it, the Sigs are screaming/freaking out while the RRs stay strong. It is a pretty awesome setup. It is in a Bassman-style cab with a Tweed pro chassis. 

I think that by the time I cycled through speakers on the 72 Super Reverb I had I could have bought a mid-60's one!
-Geoff


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## javier pintos

hey when you say webers sig 10s you mean the 10S with the ribbed cone or the 10 with the plain cone?

wold the webers resemble the copperheads in tone? i should understand the CH would be more clean when pushed due to power rating compared to the weber?


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## Hillcountry

The Sig 10s with the ribbed cone. It is a brighter speaker. And the copperheads sound better in my mind. But...at the time, I needed two speakers and didn't have a lot of money. I have enjoyed them though. They are much less loud than the ramrods, so they don't dominate the sound but they add some character. I think they would sound good in a Super Reverb, but they would probably be a little thinner, looser and break up earlier than a copperhead. The Copperhead is a tighter speaker, but still better...in my opinion.
-Geoff


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## GIBSON67

I finally read the whole thread, good info especially on Eminence speakers.

I have the Marshall MG cabinet in Red, my wife bought it for me last year so I will have to keep for awhile. Upgrading to a 1960 is not an option, and it is my first 4x12. I immediately sold the mg speakers in it, and have been using G12T75's which sound pretty good but a bit harsh to me. I don't gig and I like clean Strat tones to heavy SG rock. I use a Marshall 1987 in a small head cab of an old 3210. 

I want to stick with Celestions, so considering the smallish cab what would be a good mix? 

I have already sold 2 of G12T75's and still have 2 more from the early 80's with the vents. The older ones seem to have a smoother top end than the newer ones I just sold.

My initial thought would be to add 2 G12-65's or 2 G12H30's...

How about going with 2 x G12H100's and filling the other 2 holes?


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## javier pintos

howdy

I have a friend that has an MG100H and went from a MG4x12 to a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 1x12 with a Celestion G12H80 (i think it´s called seventy 80), that single 1x12 is louder and has way much better tone than the Marshall 4x12 with the stock MG speakers, we paired the 4x12 with the 1x12 (same impedance both), and the 1x12 overpowers the 4x12 notoriously and the tone of having both cabs is bad compared to the 1x12 alone

THe Seventy 80 is like 80 dls on GC

if you can, take a hear at those cabs, my friend also goes from strat cleans to heavy SG and Explorer tones, i wouldn´t be surprised if you end up liking them.

I gues you could find a store that has a cab with the 75´s and the fender cab and you can see how they match?

I have the G12H30 anniversary and i like then very much, i have them paired with the V30´s so they compliment each other very well, havent listen to them in combination with a 75, but i´m not a fan of the 75

cheers


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## nick37

Hey everybody! This is my first post, and I want to start by thanking Marty and everybody else who has contributed to this informative thread. The fact that I get to be on page 37 is just bonus! I discovered the thread in April and spent the next two days reading every post.

I was inspired by all the contributions and insights to try out as many speakers and combinations I could.....(afford). At the time I had enough speakers to populate my two 2x12's (one open and one closed) and closed back 1x12 cabs, but wasn't completely happy with any of them. I had also just picked up two new amps and wanted to see what I could get out them. I gravitated toward Eminences because (1) I already had a bunch, (2) cost, and (3) I'm not a mid-range honk kinda guy. And, finally, as many have already mentioned in this thread, Eminence has a lot of info on their website (especially after the redesign) and being able to correspond directly with Anthony Lucas is both cool and informative.

As a lousy guitarist and a mediocre economist, I decided I was going to try to sift through Eminence's line as methodically as I could and try to document my impressions. Of course, it didn't go that way. I was limited by the speakers I had to start with, matching ohms, what came up on Ebay, etc. BUT, I'm really happy with what I ended up with, which I will cover in my next post.

However, for now, I just want to show how guitar speakers can be fun for all ages:


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## MartyStrat54

Welcome Nick. Great picture. That's a load of speakers. I can say that I have bought and tried everyone that you have. If you have read all the posts, you know that I love the Black Powder and Tonespotter. It's the best combo that I was able to find.

Looking forward to hearing your reviews.


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## Hillcountry

I love the "Quiet Please" tag on the wall to the right...behind the stack of Eminence Speakers. Ummm...I don't think so!


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Welcome Nick. Great picture. That's a load of speakers. I can say that I have bought and tried everyone that you have. If you have read all the posts, you know that I love the Black Powder and Tonespotter. It's the best combo that I was able to find.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing your reviews.



Hey man. I'm thinking of getting a Black Powder to put in one of my 112 cabs just for the NT. Its a bright amp so I think it would go well together. What you think?

I'll hold off on doing a 412 combination for later. What speakers are you running with the JMP 2203?


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## nick37

hey! Comments already. I would have posted this earlier but my connection is awful.

My equipment:
1x12 closed, 2x12 closed, 2x12 open (all Avatar)
Carvin X100b reissue + Blackstar DistX pedal
brand new Carvin V3m
Orange Th30
ZW Overdrive
All Walnut Carvin Ultra V with Duncan Blackouts (also have a Charvel So-cal and Carvin CT6, but for these tests I was using the V)

Tone I was chasing:
As Heavy dark, thick and chunky I could get in standard tuning. I don't play in a band or record, all I want to do is smack myself in the chest with the power chords. I started thinking of the tone I was chasing as this: *"Master of Puppets" re-recorded during the "Black" album session*. Just a thicker, more evil tone, than the sometimes stressed tone of MoP. I do occasionally play clean and classic rock, but since my taste in tone for that is similar to my desired metal tones (dark, not bright), I figured that whatever speakers I ended up with would probably work for my clean and less gainy tones.

At the beginning I had:
Celestion Vin 30
Eminence Man O War, Governor, Private Jack, Texas Heat, and Tonker.
I ended up adding:
Eminence Swamp Thang, Tonespotter, Black Powder, and Wizard.
Additionally, I switched out some 16 ohm speakers for Eights, so I could try out all my potential combinations and make all my cabs 16 ohms for simplicity (and sanity).

When it was all said and done I ended up with:
16 Ohm Swamp Thang in the 1x12 -- what a monster 1x12, huge bass and can handle any watt head I'll ever own. I found the V3m a little thin and bright for my tastes, and the Swamp Thang is the antidote for that, adds girth. Plus all three of my heads allow you to run two 16's at a time, so I can add this to my 2x12's for more bottom end whenever I'm feeling really antisocial! Final plus at 16ohms it also works with my living room amp -a Vox Ac4tv. BUT soon the V3m and Swamper will be my new monster living room amp, gonna shake the couch!

Tonespotter and Man O War in my open cab paired with the Orange tH30. The tonespotter provides that british midrange that this amp clearly calls for, but it's so darn smooth that its never piercing. This cab is chunky for the TH30's whole "shape" range. Almost every combo involving a Man O sounded good with this amp.

Wizard and Swamp Thang in the closed 2x12. Wonderful screaming lead tone from the X100b and horrific, earth shattering tones from the DistX on its American (Recto) setting on the ISF knob).

In my next post I'll try to share some of my observations. There were a few disappointments and couple of surprises.

Thanks for reading through my ramblings!


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## MartyStrat54

I hear you about the Man 'O War. I have two of them in my TSL 122 and they are ball busters. Much better sound than the original speakers. (Heritage and Vintage.)


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey man. I'm thinking of getting a Black Powder to put in one of my 112 cabs just for the NT. Its a bright amp so I think it would go well together. What you think?
> 
> I'll hold off on doing a 412 combination for later. What speakers are you running with the JMP 2203?



I think the BP would be a great speaker for the NT. Now the BP still has a lot of good high end. Are you wanting a speaker that will darken the overall tone?

If you want a darker speaker, the Cannabis Rex is a good choice.

Another would be the Swamp Thang.

Hope this didn't confuse you.

I am playing my "other" 4 X 12 cab with the Governor's and Texas Heat's. I was going to let you know this, but I kept forgetting. I sold my 1960 cab to a young guy who was looking for a good cabinet that would last him. I sold it for $700. He just loved the way that cab sounded. It had the best distorted sound I have ever heard. I would have liked to have heard it with a 1959 cranked up. So yeah, the 1960 is gone. I'd rather see a young guy enjoy it and gig with it than for it to just get played a minimum amount of time.

The Gov's and Heat's are okay. That cab sounds best when it is loud. At low volume it is not as sweet. This is a good, proven pairing, but I think it actually will sound best in a band situation. It has a lot of midrange bite and I think it would blend in well with the bass and drums.

If I find another good deal on a 1960 cab, I'll get it. I still have two of those aperiodic vents so I could make another cab to the same specs.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think the BP would be a great speaker for the NT. Now the BP still has a lot of good high end. Are you wanting a speaker that will darken the overall tone?
> 
> If you want a darker speaker, the Cannabis Rex is a good choice.
> 
> Another would be the Swamp Thang.
> 
> Hope this didn't confuse you.
> 
> I am playing my "other" 4 X 12 cab with the Governor's and Texas Heat's. I was going to let you know this, but I kept forgetting. I sold my 1960 cab to a young guy who was looking for a good cabinet that would last him. I sold it for $700. He just loved the way that cab sounded. It had the best distorted sound I have ever heard. I would have liked to have heard it with a 1959 cranked up. So yeah, the 1960 is gone. I'd rather see a young guy enjoy it and gig with it than for it to just get played a minimum amount of time.
> 
> The Gov's and Heat's are okay. That cab sounds best when it is loud. At low volume it is not as sweet. This is a good, proven pairing, but I think it actually will sound best in a band situation. It has a lot of midrange bite and I think it would blend in well with the bass and drums.
> 
> If I find another good deal on a 1960 cab, I'll get it. I still have two of those aperiodic vents so I could make another cab to the same specs.



Cool. Yeah a darker speaker is what I'm looking for. Sometimes when I'm looking at speakers Eminence has TOO many choices haha!

Here is what I like for the NT:

1. Cannabis Rex
2. Black Powder

I have not checked into the Swamp Thang yet. How's it compare to the CR?

I'm also looking at another 112 cab with a GB128. Its a GB like speaker only from what I've read warmer. Think it would be a good match for the Monza as well as whatever low watt amp I may have. Its rated at 50 watts. Some call it a sleeper speaker cause you never hear about it. It gets good reviews having checked it out.

Good to see someone using your cab for playing out. That thing sounds like a killer piece of gear. Bet he's a happy camper.

Oh and just for others that may chime in I play Classic Rock to Hard Rock. No modern metal or overly saturated stuff. SO I don't need a speaker geared for Metal.LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Joe, the Legend series of Eminence speakers has been around longer than the Patriot or Redcoat and there are some good one's to choose from. I have some GB128's and they have been tested in a 2 X 12 cab. I think it is similar to a Private Jack with a smoother top end.

I think I am inclined to say that the Cannabis Rex would probably be your best bet. I'm just such a proponent for the Black Powder. I think everybody should have at least one.

Yeah, I made some good money off of that cab. I got it cheap and sold the G12T-75's for $150 and the buyer paid the shipping. I believe it was Marshall Mann that bought them off of me. It's been a while. The Eminence speakers were $320. Minus the $150, I had $170 in speakers and the cab cost $300. Plus my other parts and labor, say round it out to $500. I made a couple of hundred off of this.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, the Legend series of Eminence speakers has been around longer than the Patriot or Redcoat and there are some good one's to choose from. I have some GB128's and they have been tested in a 2 X 12 cab. I think it is similar to a Private Jack with a smoother top end.
> 
> I think I am inclined to say that the Cannabis Rex would probably be your best bet. I'm just such a proponent for the Black Powder. I think everybody should have at least one.
> 
> Yeah, I made some good money off of that cab. I got it cheap and sold the G12T-75's for $150 and the buyer paid the shipping. I believe it was Marshall Mann that bought them off of me. It's been a while. The Eminence speakers were $320. Minus the $150, I had $170 in speakers and the cab cost $300. Plus my other parts and labor, say round it out to $500. I made a couple of hundred off of this.



A few other guys have said the same thing. I like that the top end is smooth and not piercing.

For some reason i really want a Black Powder after you described it earlier. It will be a tough choice because I know the CR would work well too.

Right now I have the NT going through a Veteran 30 which is like a V30 without the high mid spike. So its a bit smoother but still there is room to tame some more highs on the bright channel the way I'm using it. Tube wise I'm as dark as I want to go. I do have to watch it though cause the thick voicing could get too dark. If I do this right I can compensate frequencies between the 2 voicings with my MXR 108 if need be. I doubt I'll need it though cause the Dano keeps things up front and tight. Its easy to work with and open sounding. It doesn't squash/compress frequencies like alot of pedals will.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was working with a member to get his amp darker. He was shooting for an early Robin Trower tone. He was running JJ's, but he bought an RFT ECC83 off of me and with that in V1 and a JJ 83 in V2, he was happy with that. I was afraid it might get too dark, but even a dark tube in V2 isn't going to add that much flavor to the V1 tube. In this case, it worked out. 

I have zero experience with the WGS line of speakers, but I know they make some good product and I believe it is a few dollars cheaper than an Eminence.

It's too bad that we do not live 15 miles apart. We would have determined what your ideal speaker is by now for the NT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was working with a member to get his amp darker. He was shooting for an early Robin Trower tone. He was running JJ's, but he bought an RFT ECC83 off of me and with that in V1 and a JJ 83 in V2, he was happy with that. I was afraid it might get too dark, but even a dark tube in V2 isn't going to add that much flavor to the V1 tube. In this case, it worked out.
> 
> I have zero experience with the WGS line of speakers, but I know they make some good product and I believe it is a few dollars cheaper than an Eminence.
> 
> It's too bad that we do not live 15 miles apart. We would have determined what your ideal speaker is by now for the NT.



And then some my friend...


----------



## TheLoudness!!

I have some Eminence Legends and was wondering what would be a good mix to go with them?

My Legends are the 1218's (the 150w versions).


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## MartyStrat54

Tonespotter (Red Coat). Close in SPL and they both are 8 ohm speakers.


----------



## nick37

Observations from my 3 month speaker odyssey (in no order whatsoever!)

Eminence needs to make more 16 Ohm speakers. I had started with a Man O War and Governor combo (which is well recommended for Metal), I had a cab wired already in parallel, so I got two 16s @ 8 ohm. Well, that kind of limited my options when I realized that the Gov was not for me. Same deal when I was trying to find a 16 ohm for my 1x12. It's even worse when I think about upgrading the 10" in my Vox AC4tv--none of Eminence's widely applauded 10" speakers come in 16 ohm --- DRAT!

Marty: I TRIED TRIED to like the Tonespotter and Black Powder in my open 2x12, but it just didn't have the bass and chug I wanted -- The two combined quite nicely, but I just wanted more. Maybe it's because my cab is really open-backed and not ported.

Conventional wisdom says that someone looking for monster chug should get more bass response from the closed cab vs. the open. Maybe because my cabs are six inches away from a concrete wall in the basement, I didn't find the difference that noticeable for your chunky speakers (Man O's, Swampers, etc). The bass was certainly different from the open cab, but not lacking vs the closed. (except with BP)

That Tonespotter is one hell of a speaker. Cheap too. $80 with UPS shipping to my door. I was disappointed with Eminence's description of the Private Jack. As noted many times in this thread, some people find the Legend GB smoother than the PJ. Well, I wanted a thicker smoother PJ and the Tonespotter is that and more. It's like Corn Starch for your tone! I wanted a speaker to sit right in the middle of the Man O's Chunky bottom and top end "sparkle" and the Tonespotter was perfect. Of course, I had to change my 16 Man O into an 8 Man O in order to try this. The Tonespotter sounds fantastic with a Swamper too and goes great in both open and closed cabs.

Mixing speakers is of course more fun, but sometimes, I wish I had tried 2 of the same speakers once or twice. Two Tonespotters, would be a real winner, I believe. Two Man O's would probably work for someone like myself not interested in subtlety. Two Swampers would probably be too much unless the amp was really bright.

I didn't really have the time, setup, or patience to properly break-in these speakers. Some were two years old, some were new, some were bought used and unknown. It tried to keep this in mind as I went along. Certainly, some speakers were better at the end than the beginning --but then again so was my playing and my ears for what I was chasing. It's absolutely true that the higher watt speakers were stiffer. With the exception of the Swamper, the high watt speakers took much longer to grow on me. I'm looking at you Tonker and Texas Heat!

The Swamper and Tonespotter were the only speakers that I loved instantly right out of the box brand new. Thick, Dark, rich, that was what I was chasing. Even brand new, I knew those were keepers.

More to come.


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## nick37

Hi Again!

More random speaker observations:

I never would have chosen the Tonker on my own. Eminence had recommended it for a Line 6 combo that I used to have. It did improve the clean tone, but it still sounded like a Line 6! Since I had the Tonker, I ran it through the tests. Never really liked it. It's got some bass, but so much "honk" that it never provided the dark evil chunk that I wanted. I have seen the Tonker recommended on some boards as a good match for the Swamp Thang. Some have described it as the British Swamp Thang. Maybe so, but it just didn't match well for me.

One of my greatest disappointments was the Texas Heat. That was actually the very first speaker I ever chose myself. I could never make it chunky and thick like Eminence describes it. Never enough bass, and often too fizzy. With a lot of distortion it just sounds "processed" - like the aforementioned Line 6 or going overboard with an EQ pedal and just making the tone sound fake. Fizzy and processed with no bass--just a real downer there. Lots of people love this speaker, I wish it had worked for me.

The Governor is not subtle at all. I understand why so many recommend it as a good match for a Man O, but it was just too aggressive for me. Again, I'm not trying to "fit in the mix," so YMMV. To me, it just sounded like Humble Pie on "11" all the time. Now, I love Humble Pie, but no one ever described their guitar or vocals as "smooth, "mellow," or even "pleasant." In my little notebook, I just kept writing "Too Much" whenever I tested the Gov. Just too much for my ears.

Now the Celestion Vintage 30's charms and warts are well-documented on the web. My main impression was just how much I hated it by itself in a 1x12. Thin, Raspy. I wrote in my notebook "sounds like a wah left half-cocked, and not in a good Michael Schenker kinda way!" I can't believe people use that speaker in 1x12's and combos. That said, it was a remarkably good speaker at blending in. Where the Gov was often "too much" the Vin 30 often helped to make fantastic lead tones with a bass-heavy speaker. The riffing was often sharp rather chunky, so not a winner for me, but I can definitely see it's appeal when paired with another speaker. One of my chief surprises was the Vin 30 and a Private Jack in an open 2x12. It sounded so full and rich with my Orange TH30. I kept looking at the specs and descriptions, trying to figure out where the bass was coming from--maybe it was just perfectly balanced mid-range--regardless, a nice surprise, that I might not have tried if I was being so OCD about the whole thing.

More to come. Again, I'm just trying to share all my observations because I found this thread so useful for my own research. Thanks.


----------



## nick37

More random speaker observation.

After a while I started thinking of nothing but Sensitivity ratings. The kids were sick off an on and my wife would be trying to tell me their temperatures and all I could think of is which speaker would "match up!" 
102 degrees -- Swamp Thang, Man O (8), Tonker
100.7 degrees -- Tonespotter, etc. I'm not embarrassed to say that I probably took this all a little too serious. But, again, I'm a lousy guitarist AND and a mediocre economist, so this was in my wheelhouse!

Once I tried out my 16ohm Swamp Thang and loved it immediately, I promptly got another but @ 8 Ohms, so I could use it with all my other 8 Ohms speakers. Conventional web wisdom (sarcasm) was the Texas Heat, Tonker, and Gov would all pair well with the Swamper, especially for metal. I had all these speakers, so I was excited to test this. Of course the Gov (which was tested with the 16 Swamper) was too much -- maybe I just don't like break-up? I was completely unimpressed by the TH/ST combo-- maybe it sounds better in a 4x12? And the Tonker/ST was just weird. In fact the Tonker generated more "weirds" in my notebook than any other speaker.

I've seen in some speaker discussions where people like when two different speakers "respond" differently from eachother creating a 3D-like effect. Perhaps this is what I always heard as weird. For other styles of music, I could see this working, but for dark, evil chugging, I want the full power to hit simultaneously. I think this was the "hidden" factor for those combinations that worked on paper: SPL, descriptions fit nicely, but just left me feeling off-kilter.

The Tonespotter worked nicely with Swamper in my closed 2x12, but it was almost too smooth and nice there. I needed just a bit more bite and aggression for my X100b (which I think of as darker than my other amps), and the DistX (which the way I run it can get a bit muddy, flubby).

All along, I had been scared of the Wizard. Terrified actually. I heard the tone samples on Eminence's website and it didn't sound like a gentle Gandalf too me! A lot of coloration, and I was very scared of coloration because of my Gov experiences. The Wizard is available in 16 ohms and could have helped me there as a potential mate for the Man O, but the 16 ohm Wiz is even more sensitive than the 8, AND the 16 Man O is less sensitive than the 8 Man O--So I was just TERRIFIED that the big bad Wizard would just overpower my Man O if I ran two 16's. I'm scaring myself right now just writing about it....oooooh.

Anyhoo. Once I switched over to all 8 ohms. I took a chance on a used 8 ohm Wizard. More web wisdom has said that the Wizard can be a little bizarre in an open cab. I tried it in the open cab with the Man O, and it was a little odd, I agree. Very 3D. The volume difference is almost like a timing issue. I heard the Wizard a split second before the Man O. Almost like watching someone dribbling a basketball from far away and you notice the sound isn't synced to what your eyes are seeing because sound travels slower than light. Very interesting, but not at all what I wanted from my chugging. Switched the Tonespotter and the Wizard and I was in happy town. Wizard on top of a Swamper in a closed back, and a Tonespotter on top of a Man O in the open back.

I probably could have reached my happy conclusions a bit faster if I hadn't tried to use what I had already, been more decisive on ditching the 16 ohm Man O, and finally had little more faith in the Swamp Thang, Tonespotter, and Wizard descriptions. Add the Man O War to that list and you have four fantastic speakers for thick n' heavy rock and metal. Most probably don't need that much low-end, but that's what I live for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anybody try out any speakers they care to review?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I posted this up on another thread, but thought it would be useful over here.



MartyStrat54 said:


> I keep in communication with Anthony Lucas of Eminence speakers. A while back, I asked him this very same question about a 4 X 12 Greenback cab and a 100 watt tube amp.
> 
> I do want to add that for the most part, it is very difficult to get "continuous" power out of a guitar amp. The signal to the amp has a lot of highs and lows and the power from the amp is fluctuating. Holding a note like Ted Nugent with a lot of distortion is probably the hardest thing you can do to speakers. Remember that a distorted signal has DC clips and this is what is hard on the voice coils as it can create heat. If it gets too hot, the glue holding the windings fail and the wire falls apart in the voice coil gap. End of speaker. This is what Anthony describes as "thermal power."
> 
> Here is Anthony's reply:
> 
> Hi Marty,
> 
> "RMS" watts is an erroneous term, but that's for another day. We test for a continuous average power rating (we simply call it "watts") with an industry standard noise signal. This is basically just a thermal power limit. On guitar speakers, we do not specify a music program rating, and I'm pretty certain Celestion doesn't either. As you've pointed it out for pro audio speakers, the program power is twice the continuous rating. This is an acceptable, industry standard way to specify it. I suppose it's all been tested out somewhere along the line. A music signal is less abusive than a continuous noise signal. Music has many peaks and dips. For guitar, it's usually desirable for the speaker to see a dirty/distorted signal, but you don't want your pro audio speakers to see anything but a clean signal. The program power rating on pro audio speakers helps you select the appropriate amplifier power. It is acceptable to under power a guitar speaker and "clip" the amplifier, so program power ratings are not necessary. Such as a Class 5 into a half stack.
> 
> Cranked tube amps do typically put out more power than their ratings. I think that's why they sound louder than equivalent solid state amps. My advice on guitar speakers is to never over power them. Using a 100 watt head on a 25 watt Greenback cab is very risky, in my opinion.
> 
> Anthony Lucas | Customer Service
> Eminence Speaker LLC
> P.O. Box 360
> 838 Mulberry Pike
> Eminence, KY 40019
> 
> Phone: 502.845.5622 Ext. 341
> Fax: 502.845.5653
> Eminence Speaker | The most trusted name in audio since 1966. Great upgrades for JBL, Celestion, Jensen, and Fane.
> 
> Some food for thought. Back in the glory days of rock and roll, many a guitarist used a 100 watt amp on a half stack. Of course, the famous pro's all used full stacks or multiple amps and multiple full stacks. This was part of the Marshall sound. "Warm" speakers sound different. Some guys were very good at playing right on the threshold of blowing a speaker (and many times speakers did blow).
> 
> Playing (4) 25W Greenbacks with a cranked 100 watt amp is not going to blow them immediately as it takes a while for the heat to build up on the voice coils. However, long term use with the amp cranked to 10 will probably kill a speaker in about 30 minutes or so.
> 
> From Celestion's website:
> 
> Speakers must be capable of taking at least as much power as the amp puts out, or you risk damaging them. So, for a single speaker, pick one with a power rating the same or higher than the amp itself. For a twin speaker combo the minimum speaker power rating is half that of the amp and for a cabinet with four speakers it will be a quarter of the amp's max. power output.
> 
> I find this to be a little confusing, because Celestion is stating,"...pick one with a power rating the same or higher than the amp itself." If you go by what is being said, (4) 25W Greenbacks will work with a 100 watt amp. *However,* Celestion then goes on to say, "...for a cabinet with four speakers it will be a quarter of the amp's max. power output." This is where it is confusing, because now Celestion is referring to "MAX" power. Well we all know that a 100 watt amp can hit momentary bursts of power as high as 170 watts. If we go by the last statement, the 4 X 12 cab would have to have 42.5 watt speakers. This is way above a 25 watt speaker. I wish Celestion would clarify this as it is confusing. Are we dealing with the amps "advertised power," or the MAX power?
> 
> Generally speaking, the power rating of the speaker does not determine the break-up mode. Break-up is most influenced by the cone. It commonly occurs quicker in thinner, lighter weight cones (such as what is found on the Greenies). However, higher power speakers often have heavier cones with slower break up, but not always. Higher power speakers usually have more "moving mass." A larger magnet is used and this helps control heat build up. Low watt speakers like the Greenback will have a thin cone that breaks up naturally as the volume is increased. However, as I stated, you can over power these speakers and "WARM" them up at high volume. There is cone distortion and "heat" distortion.
> 
> To recap what I have stated. The power rating of a guitar speaker is an indication of how much power it can handle without being damaged thermally or mechanically. It is not an indication of how loud the speaker will sound in comparison to other speakers.
> 
> Speakers are transducers. They convert electrical energy provided by an amplifier into acoustical energy. They are actually very inefficient transducers because most of the electrical energy is converted into *heat* instead of sound. The reference efficiency (ratio of acoustic power out to electrical power in) for most guitar speakers is around 2% to 6%, which means that 98% to 94% of the electrical energy is dissipated in the form of heat.
> 
> The power output rating of a guitar amp is mostly a ballpark figure for what it can put out. Amp specifications commonly list power output in a form similar to the following:
> 
> Power Output: 50W into 8Ω at 5% THD
> 
> This type of power output rating is obtained by using a sine wave from a signal generator (usually 1 kHz) as the input signal. The 5% THD (total harmonic distortion) figure means that the sine wave was able to generate 50W of power output with relatively low distortion (near the threshold of clipping or overdrive). THD measurements were one of the first conventions used to objectively compare the fidelity of audio amplifiers.
> 
> Guitar amps are unconventional audio amplifiers. While most audio amplifiers are designed to keep distortion as low as possible, guitar amplification has evolved to where overdrive distortion is usually a requirement. For example, the Marshall JCM800 2203 is a 100W tube amp that has a highly regarded overdrive sound. The owner’s manual lists the power output as follows:
> 
> Typical power at clipping, measured at 1kHz, average distortion 4% 115 watts RMS into 4, 8, 16 ohms. Typical output power at 10% distortion 170 watts into 4 ohms.
> 
> This example shows that for many guitar amplifiers, the power output rating (100W in this case) is not a maximum power output rating, but more of a ballpark clean power output specification.
> 
> Guitar amps are not Hi Fi amps. We want the overdrive and distortion. Therefore, the speakers are punished. Use common sense with your amp and cab. If you think you are doing something risky, you probably are.


----------



## TheLoudness!!

MartyStrat54 said:


> Anybody try out any speakers they care to review?



Yes a matter of fact..

I had broken in the combo of Eminence Govener's and Swamp Thang's in the previous Splawn cab that I owned. I really kind of miss it even though I traded it off for a Mesa Rectifier cab...

The Eminence' Swamp Thang and Govener combo is a super thick wall of sound. The Swamp Thang provided the lows while the Govener handled the mids. Very powerful sounding and SUPER FACKING LOUD. The Swamp Thangs are DEEP and the Govener is one the best speakers that I have tried. This combo was used with both a Splawn Super Comp and a VHT Deliverance. 
The Eminence Govener is a finely tuned sweeter sounding V30 without the midrange honk and harshness...

The Splawn was super pissed off sounding but that combo with the VHT is a wall of sound. The disadvantage to this combo (if you can call that) is that YOU MUST CRANK IT to get the full effect of what it's capable of. I use lower tunings along with high mids. I need a gain sound that cuts through the mix and doesn't get muddy or muffled at high stage volumes...

So now I have the Mesa cab with the 150w Eminence Legends and want to x pattern them with something else to give my tone more edge.


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## MartyStrat54

Just remember that higher wattage speakers usually have more low mid and midrange and are "warm" on the top end. This is due to a heavier moving mass and a thicker cone.

I recently sold my best sounding cab to a younger guy looking for a nice cab. He just fell in love with my 1960A loaded with Black Powder's and Tonespotter's. I was a nice guy and sold him the cab.


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## nick37

I just wanted to point out that three of my (more rambling) posts have appeared above with more detailed impressions from my speaker testing. Due to being a new member they sat in the Ether-Limbo for almost five-six days. Not that I'm complaining--mods have to do what mods have to do, and I'm fine with that! I'm glad that they finally appeared, I was beginning to think I had failed to "submit."

I just wanted to reiterate that my goal -- almost superseding my tone chasing -- was to try to return the favor to everyone who has shared their speaker experiences on this board. I'm hoping these more descriptive posts will be of value for those researching Eminence's more "chuggy" offerings.


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## MartyStrat54

NICK-Thanks for taking the time to post your detailed reviews. Much appreciated.

As far as the Black Powder and Tonespotter, yes they do work better in a sealed cab.


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## MajorNut1967

Marty does Eminence have something similar to the G12-75T?


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## MartyStrat54

Yes, the Man O' War. This speaker sounds much better than a G12T-75. I run two of them in a TSL122 and that combo is as loud as some 4 X 12 cabs. The MOW isn't shrill or harsh like the G12T-75.


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## nick37

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, the Man O' War. This speaker sounds much better than a G12T-75. I run two of them in a TSL122 and that combo is as loud as some 4 X 12 cabs. The MOW isn't shrill or harsh like the G12T-75.



As Eminence puts it: where the G12-75 has top-end "sizzle," the Man O War has "sparkle." It's the kindest, gentlest battering ram around!


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## MajorNut1967

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, the Man O' War. This speaker sounds much better than a G12T-75. I run two of them in a TSL122 and that combo is as loud as some 4 X 12 cabs. The MOW isn't shrill or harsh like the G12T-75.



Man there is quite a bit of a difference in the resonant freq the MoW is 102 & the 75t is 87. I need to hear an audition.


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## MartyStrat54

Don't let that concern you too much. The MOW has plenty of low end and mid crunch is thick and meaty.

Most Eminence speakers have a "tight" suspension and I think that is why some have a higher resonant frequency. Also, Eminence speakers take longer to break in, but once they are, they will last damn near forever.


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## MartyStrat54

We are open for business over here, despite all of the Backstage ruckus. Got anything you want to say about cabs and speakers? Here is the thread.

Thanks, Marty


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## thrawn86

We had a new member inquiring about the Behringer cabinets. I'm not sure if he was looking at the one with Bugera speakers or Jensens. Any light you could shed on this is appreciated.


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## MartyStrat54

Well the Jensen's are going to be better than the Bugera's. That's a no brainer. However, how many guys do you know that play Marshall's that use Jensen speakers?

When I think Jensen or RCA 7025's, I think FENDER.

I would need a model number of the cab. All the one's I researched are either 50 or 100 watt Bugera speakers. None of the spec sheets stated what the cabs were made of.


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## thrawn86

I think he's after a BG412H. And I agree. He had a Mode Four, and couldn't afford the matching cab right now......I advised him to wait until he could, but the Behringer was 400 watts.


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## MartyStrat54

Oh I see. I did a little more research. They really aren't Jensen's. They are Bugera's designed by Jensen.


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## thrawn86

Ahhh......still think a Marshall is the way to go.


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## MartyStrat54

Well my favorite high power cab is a 1960A loaded with two Eminence Tonespotters and two Eminence Black Powders. That is the best speaker tone that I have found and I have tested a lot of speakers.


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## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well my favorite high power cab is a 1960A loaded with two Eminence Tonespotters and two Eminence Black Powders. That is the best speaker tone that I have found and I have tested a lot of speakers.



I'm gonna do my 2x12 with that combo here soon. Things keep popping up,, before I can get it done. Next is getting the motorcycle fixed......


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## MartyStrat54

Hey how ya doing? Yeah, this is a very sweet combo. A 212 is just as killer as the 412.

The balls this combo has is incredible. It is the Marshall sound you grew up loving.


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## MartyStrat54

Notice of contest. Please submit entry over on the Preamp Tube thread.

Hello. I have a cool contest here for all who wish to enter. I'm trying to get the forum back on the right tracks. Ya know...amps, guitars, speakers, pickups and TUBES. Yeah, I love tubes and you guys know that.

To enter, you must:

Copy the following image and text.





"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Just use the "Quote" button and copy the image and the text.

Then go to this thread:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html

Paste image and text in the Preamp Tube thread.

Then in your own words tell me why you would want to be a tube roller. Try to keep it under 300 words or less. No penalty for going over. 

GRAND PRIZE is TEN rolling tubes. Six NOS and four CP. I even pay for postage (USA only). If you live overseas (including Canada and Mexico), you can enter, but you will be responsible for postage and handling.

NOS tubes will be RCA, GE, Sylvania, Raytheon, Military 5751 and mystery 12AX7.
CP tubes will be Preferred Series 7025, Mullard RI, JJ 83S Gold Pin and EH.

(All the above tubes are 12AX7/12AX7A types.)

This is at least $240 in tubes. WOW! Who else would do something like this?
Main judge-Me. Supporting judges, Alan (River Ratt) and Joe (SolarBurn).



> Just left the Preamp Tube thread and read where Joe and Alan are wanting to fatten the pot with a couple of extra tubes. Looks like the GRAND PRIZE will be a total of 10 tubes.
> 
> 5751 from Alan
> Mystery 12AX7 from Joe



ATTENTION: POST YOUR CONTEST QUESTIONS HERE, BUT DO NOT POST YOUR ENTRY HERE. IF YOU DO, IT WILL BE INVALID. I WANT ALL ENTRIES OVER ON THE PREAMP TUBE THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME WITH QUESTIONS. POST YOUR QUESTIONS/COMMENTS HERE.

One grand prize only. Entry must be submitted by midnight, October 31, 2011.
Winner's name to be announced here and on the Preamp Tube thread.
I reserve the right to make tube substitutions.


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## MM54

It isn't guitar, but it's about speakers and I know Marty will know:

Is there anything in the crossover in a set of hi-fi speakers (I'm thinking mainly my JBL L112's, but question applies to all crossovers in general) that after 30+ years would be worn or dried out?


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## MartyStrat54

Well that would be the 80's and the caps were of the better quality in the JBL's. They built some bullet proof crossovers. You might want to physically look at the caps and see what kind they are.


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## MM54

Tangent question - I have a pair of Koss M80-Plus speakers with me, and the one woofer has a rip about 3/4" long in the foam (probably wouldn't hurt to replace the foam in all of them, but that's not feasible at present). What do you suggest to fix it? It makes a really fucking annoying "pffffftttttttttbbbbbb" noise on the bass drops in my dubstep... erm, I mean on really really heavy riffs. I have the bass on that channel turned down (Running from a Pioneer 727) to prevent more damage and avoid the PFFFTTTBBBBB'ing.

Edit: Part of the surround of another one of the drivers just fell onto my desk, so I guess this is out of the question at this point


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## MartyStrat54

Sounds like the foam has pretty much degraded beyond repair. If the foam was good, you could take a piece of fabric and use it as a mesh and use the white latex glue that dries clear on the fabric and the foam. This works pretty good.


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## MM54

Yeah, I have some stuff being worked out over the next couple days for a permanent solution. For now I'm going to glue the crack and hopefully the hole in the other driver's surround doesn't grow. Either way these are getting refoamed, I just have to figure out how to have them work reliably until I'm able to refoam them. For their size, the are really nice little speakers.

(I'm doing an experiment at the moment with some of the foam that fell out... more on that later, if it works)


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## MM54

I got a bottle of "Aleen's Tacky Glue" at Walmart, it seems like it'll work really well. It's drying at the moment on the slightly torn surround (obviously the one with the big gap is getting replaced...)


----------



## MM54

Continuing the theme...

I talked to my dad who essentially has a stash of everything vintage stereo, and he mailed me a set of recently-refoamed replacement speakers for the Koss M80/Plus I mentioned earlier. They got here today, and guess what? In shipping, one of the magnets was dislodged off the back and crinkled the voice coil, killing the speaker. He doesn't have any more.

Any suggestions for a replacement speaker? It's got oddly narrow spade connectors and I don't have any equipment to adapt the wires over to a larger spade connector. It's an 8-ohm 10W (?) 4 inch woofer that covers pretty much full range.

Edit: Keeping the phrase "Poor college kid" in mind, what do you think about this? It looks to have the correct awkwardly narrow connectors, and is 8 ohm with a pretty wide frequency range:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=290-372


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## MartyStrat54

I've used a bunch of those Dayton Audio RS100T's. However, they have the truncated mounting plate. Could you get these to work, they are five dollars more, but better speakers than the one's you picked.

Dayton Audio DA115-8 4" Aluminum Cone Woofer, Part #:295-328.


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## MM54

Those wouldn't mount right in these cabinets, they're a little strange. Also seems to have the bigger connectors, which don't match up with the smaller connectors on the wires in the speaker cabinet (this normally wouldn't be a problem, but since I'm away at school I have no way to change anything out like that).


What would you suggest with the smaller lugs and the full mounting flange thing? I haven't done a ton of searching, but there doesn't seem a ton of great options that'll work.


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## MartyStrat54

Tang Bang makes a lot of small woofers, but they are higher priced. You're not going to find a lot of high performance woofers for cheap. I've seen 4-inch woofer that were almost $200 just for the (4-inch) speaker.

I'll do a little more surfing, but you may have to go with what you found.


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## MM54

Alright, thanks for the help man 

Still pissed that they destroyed the original speaker though


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I guarantee it had a lot better low end response than 100Hz for the Goldwood.

Here is one that is rated at 70Hz for $15 and it looks to use the small lugs.

4" High Quality OEM Woofer 8 ohm


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## MM54

That one does indeed have the small lugs and looks good, but again it doesn't have the full mounting flange and thus wouldn't be able to be attached to these cabinets :/ I'm okay with $20-25 for a speaker, but it's going to have to fit 

I plan on looking around some more this evening if I get the chance


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Any comments on the WGS Blackhawks?

I used a plexi clone to record. It was a 2x12 combo. The panel had a toggle switch to choose the year: either 1967 or 1969. Not sure if that was switching something in the pre amp section (most likely).
All I know from that amp is that it had WGS speakers and it had a Mercury transformer, but it didn't show anything on the speaker label (it didn't show the watts or model, just WGS and a coulpe other things).

Anyone have experience with these speakers?


----------



## javier pintos

Hillcountry said:


> My pleasure Marty. I went through so many speakers with that Super Reverb. I ended up converting it to a 60's style floating baffle and speaker config. instead of the offset speaker config of the 70's cabs. After I sold it I missed having a super reverb, so now I have built an amp that is a "normal" channel side only of a Super Reverb, through a 4x10 cab with Ramrods on the bottom, and 2 Weber Ceramic Sig 10s on the top. When I crank it, the Sigs are screaming/freaking out while the RRs stay strong. It is a pretty awesome setup. It is in a Bassman-style cab with a Tweed pro chassis.
> 
> I think that by the time I cycled through speakers on the 72 Super Reverb I had I could have bought a mid-60's one!
> -Geoff


 
Well i finally got a chance to get a pair of speakers for my SR, i ended up getting a pair of jensen C10Q, all i have to say is that i love them, i still have to get another pair wich i just don{t know if i will get the ALnicos or ceramics, but so far the C10Q give me the raunch i was looking for at mid volume with a pedal in front (i just got me a marshall bluesbreakerII), and the cleans are lovely actually for a new speaker i think it sounds very smooth very balanced in my oppinion, good lows (not competing with the bass), very good mids and no piercing highs, very chuncky with chords, we tried the amp with a LP and a mustang and i have to admint that to my taste i made the right choice, the are a little bright for now but i guess is matter of breaking in and some equing


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## MartyStrat54

Good to hear from you Javier.


----------



## javier pintos

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good to hear from you Javier.


 
Thanks man

i´ve been traveling like crazy all over and just got of a plane from a 9 day trip and got on another plane and got back and went to mcallen to get my speaker and yesterday installed them for band practice, funy thing is that the trees from axross the street were chopped dow, and some other changes and when i asked they told me everything happenned like in june so long time no practice jajajaj, and i´m getting on a plane tomorrow and another trip on the 27th til nov 2nd, so no love to my string yet


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## MartyStrat54

Be thankful that you have a job. From what I gather, you do okay for yourself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

WGS Blackhawk 12-inch, 100 watt speakers. 8 or 16 ohm.

Warehouse WGS BlackHawk HP 12" 100W Alnico Guitar Speaker:Guitars, Pedals Amps Effects

WGS Blackhawk 12-inch, 50 watt speakers. 8 or 16 ohm.

Warehouse WGS BlackHawk 12" 50W Alnico Guitar Speaker:Guitars, Pedals Amps Effects


----------



## Hillcountry

Javier,
I'm glad you found something you like! I hope you enjoy. AlNiCo would give you the chime, but I like how you describe the ceramics - raunchy.

Have fun!
-Geoff


----------



## AudioWonderland

Considering replacing My old 4x12s with Avatar vintage 2x12s to save space in my studio. I am not unhappy with the Greenbacks in the old cabs in anyway but I am wondering if going with G12H30's instead would both give me a little better power handling as well has supply a little more thump in from the 2x12 vs the Greenbacks. Alternatively the Greenbacks should be a bit quieter since they are less efficient which would also be a good thing.

Also considering the open back Vintage 2x12 cab from avatar for use with my Fenders. Thinking Texas Heats would be a good fit but with 300w total power handling I would not be getting any speaker break up. ANyone have a better alternative forthe Fender cab?


----------



## Gtarzan81

AudioWonderland said:


> Considering replacing My old 4x12s with Avatar vintage 2x12s to save space in my studio. I am not unhappy with the Greenbacks in the old cabs in anyway but I am wondering if going with G12H30's instead would both give me a little better power handling as well has supply a little more thump in from the 2x12 vs the Greenbacks. Alternatively the Greenbacks should be a bit quieter since they are less efficient which would also be a good thing.
> 
> Also considering the open back Vintage 2x12 cab from avatar for use with my Fenders. Thinking Texas Heats would be a good fit but with 300w total power handling I would not be getting any speaker break up. ANyone have a better alternative forthe Fender cab?



Marty has raved on the Black Powder and Tonespotter pairing from Eminence. I'm likely going to put those into my 2x12 here soon. 

I keep the 6100 on 50 watt mode most of the time now, so my 100 watt cab rating now is ok.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Black Powder and Tonespotter is the finest combo I found when I did an extensive (and expensive) test of Eminence speakers. 

Just remember they come in 8 ohm only, so a 212 cab can be either a 16 or a 4 ohm load.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Black Powder and Tonespotter is the finest combo I found when I did an extensive (and expensive) test of Eminence speakers.
> 
> Just remember they come in 8 ohm only, so a 212 cab can be either a 16 or a 4 ohm load.



Were they the best for everything or a specific tone? ie overdriven / with Marshalls / with fenders? I want to fine tune the closed back cab for dirty Marshall tones and the open back one for clean Fender tones. Hopefully they would both work for either but those are the 2 bases I would like to cover

I have a Tonespotter in my ISO cab so I am familiar with that model


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did all of my testing in a custom 1960A slant cab. It had aperiodic vents on the back panel. This tightened up the lows off of the Black Powders. The combo of the Tonespotter and the Black Powder was great sounding for classic rock all the way to metal. All distortion was from the amplifier and effects pedals. Regardless of style, these speakers remained tight and focused. They never got mushy.

FYI-I had a 32 year old guitarist play through this cab and I sold it to him within 30 minutes. He was playing a high end Ibanez and he just loved the sound of this box. I hated to sell it, but I've always been one to see another younger guitar player get something that makes them happy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, here are some pictures and comments from my latest renovations of the 1960A cab. Some of you are aware of what I have been up to. Recently I bought around $1200 in Eminence speakers and I have been trying out different pairs in a 412 cab.
> 
> The 1960A has been modified. The G12T-75's were removed and sold. All the screws were tightened the handles were glued to prevent rattles. I cut two, four inch holes in the back panel. In the holes went aperiodic vents. Real quickly, they make speakers think they are in a larger box. A thick pad of fiberglass was applied to the back. (Not shown in the pictures is the cut out in the fiberglass for the center post.)
> 
> I've currently tried several combo's of speakers. In the picture is the Black Powder and the Tonespotter. I really like the Black Powder and would recommend it for those who play any type of heavy metal with drop tunings. The Black Powder has a low resonance and has a tight midrange with a nice splash of highs. A 412 of these would make a killer thrash, death, or grindcore speaker. Palm mutes are brutal and tight.
> 
> I just pulled the Private Jacks out and installed the Tonespotters. The Private Jacks are clones of Greenbacks and the Tonespotter is a clone of the G12-65. It's 2:40 AM and I can't play right now. I'll be curious to see how the Tonespotters sound as the response curve is similar to the Private Jack.
> 
> I'll post more later on the tone of the speakers. Here are some pictures.
> 
> Stock G12T-75 still in the cab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back side of the two, aperiodic vents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back panel showing the two, aperiodic vents.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slab of fiberglass on back panel. I had to cut a notch out for the center post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Powder and Tonespotters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Black Powder
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tonespotter
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Finished cab ready for testing.



It took me a while to find this, but here is the cab that I tested all of the Eminence speakers in. The aperiodic vents are no longer for sale. I have two left. Enough to do one more box.


----------



## Gtarzan81

I'm torn between Eminence Black Powder and Tonespotter combo, and WGS ET65 and Invader combo.

Decisions decisions.......


----------



## AudioWonderland

I am wondering how similar a Wizard and G12H30 are or a Tonespotter and a Celestion 65 are. With a 2x12 cab I could use the extra power handling of the Eminence speakers if the tone is reasonable


----------



## javier pintos

Howdy all

I just got a private jack for an AVT50 combo (closed back), while i like it better than the stock speaker i think it should be able to sound better that it sounds now, one thing is to wait untill broken in, however i did play ir like an hr almost full blast, but the other change i can make is to make it open back, i already removed the back but i wounder if i should keep some part of the board on the back, i have not had the chance to bring up the volume after taking the back off, but it did sound different, what should i expect when i raise the volume?, in your experience once the speaker is broken should it sound better closed/open?, this amp is basically for home practice so is not played loud and not intended to be played loud i have my dsl100 for that and now that i have my SR working i also have a 45 watt amp for smaller places (we don´t gig out much anyway), i think the AVT will be the practice at home amp


Cheers


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Private Jack is designed for either sealed or open back applications. Some of the guys I know (and reviews too) all think this is the best Eminence speaker. Me? I think the PJ is a little thin on the bottom. However, it is just my taste to like nice tight lows. Playing a guitar in a room by yourself and playing a guitar with a band are two distinctly different settings. Some speakers that sound a little thin on the bottom will shine in a band situation. 

I think the PJ will sound better after it is broken in. Eminence speakers are very tight when new. I always break mine in with an audio generator. 

Once you have a large opening, you have an open back cab. Ported or vented cabs have a specific sized hole or vent to make the cab put out more low end. Most guitar speakers do not go low enough to utilize a ported cab.


----------



## javier pintos

Thanks

I did notice i lost some of the lows from the stck speaker but also got rid of the nasal sound so (which is what i was after), i´ll try to beak it as fast as possible but the wife and kids make it impossible to play it loud and playing back music while i´m away is not possible since i just own a couple of hrs a day of the house


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well just so you know, it can take a while for those PJ's to break in fully.


----------



## zimske

hiya

are swamp thangs working better with closed or open back cabs?


----------



## Hillcountry

Swamp Thangs work well in either application. I have one in an open back right now and it is awesome. It is great in closed back also.


----------



## MartyStrat54

AudioWonderland said:


> I am wondering how similar a Wizard and G12H30 are or a Tonespotter and a Celestion 65 are. With a 2x12 cab I could use the extra power handling of the Eminence speakers if the tone is reasonable



Wizards are brighter and very efficient. They will drown out most regular Celestions. A Tonespotter is the Eminence version of the G12-65.


----------



## LBKENNEDY

can someone jog my memory i have a verbal committment
for some celestions from a cat named dave out in washington,
and i lost the contact data, does this ring a bell thxlbk


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wizards are brighter and very efficient. They will drown out most regular Celestions. A Tonespotter is the Eminence version of the G12-65.



How close are the Private Jacks and the Greenbacks? I was think of either mixing a Tonespotter with a Private Jack or having 1 2x12 each with Tonespotters and Private Jacks


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## MartyStrat54

I personally do not like the mix of the Greenback and Tonespotter. I would match it up with a Man 'O War or Governor.


----------



## RiverRatt

I put a pair of Eminence Legend 16 ohm speakers in a cheap Seismic Audio cabinet and it sounds pretty good! I got the Legends from Cody and picked up the cabinet for $125. It had a few issues but it sounds pretty damed good with those Legends in it. He said they came out of a Randall amp. All I ever used to see were 8 ohm speakers. These are nice!


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty - that $11 4 inch speaker fit in the Koss cabinet, but the terminals needed some... modifications... to work. Despite looking to have the small terminals on the site, they're indeed the big ones. My scissors (amazingly) were able to take care of the issue though...

Anyways, it's still breaking in (obviously) but it's sounding pretty damn good right now  A bit brighter than the OEM ones, but it's new so I'll let the music beat that out of it and see how it sounds in, say, a week. Hopefully I'll remember to post back here


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jog my memory. Were the $11 speakers the one's I found, or was it the original one you found?


----------



## MM54

It's the original one I found, which I mainly got because it supposedly had the right terminals... turns out it didn't, but it looks very very similar to the original and sounds pretty good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm blown away at the technology that is found in modern speakers. That brand Tang Band has some killer little woofers and full range speakers. I redid the speaker system at St. Benedict's church and in one enclosure, I used two of those full range Dayton RS100 four-inch speakers. They are rated at 87 to 20KHz. No need for a tweeter. They were mounted in a special box and I can't believe the dispersion. They're great for the money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a couple of pictures from around 1986 or so. The first is a 215 sub cab that was part of a system installed in a topless bar. Four, 12-inch two way satellites installed as well. I remember it was on Easter Sunday and that my mom would have been disappointed that I was working at a topless bar on Easter Sunday.






The next is a pic of a fully refurbished SVT 810 cab. I reconed all the speakers with OE kits and repainted the baffle. A new grille was made using some nice synthetic material and the cab had new carpet installed. This would have been in the Spring of 1987.


----------



## LSummer

Hey!

I'm new on the forum, and have right away one question (hopefully this goes into right thread!):

I have Marshall 1960 B 4x12 stereo cab, which is only stereo, so I've had 2 cables from my JCM 800 to run all 4 speakers. So my question goes, if I can find a cable that has one plug on another end, and 2 on another (like Y connection), can I plug it into the cab without damaging it? Like just sending it as mono from the amp to the cab as stereo. This question popped my mind since I now got mono A cab for cheap price from a friend of mine.

Or do I have to change the wiring of the stereo cab? to make it mono cab. Since I really dont need that stereo thing.

My english may not be the best but hopefully someone understand my problem!


----------



## AlisterHag

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Black Powder and Tonespotter is the finest combo I found when I did an extensive (and expensive) test of Eminence speakers.
> 
> Just remember they come in 8 ohm only, so a 212 cab can be either a 16 or a 4 ohm load.




I used your research and matched a Tonespotter and Black Powder into my Classic 50 combo and it's nothing short of bad ass!


----------



## MartyStrat54

LSummer-You can use a "Y" cord like that, but you will need to read what the impedance is on the mono plug end and make sure your amp is set to that load. You will need a multimeter to read the ohms on the plug.


----------



## MartyStrat54

AlisterHag said:


> I used your research and matched a Tonespotter and Black Powder into my Classic 50 combo and it's nothing short of bad ass!



Thank you sir. I am glad that you got the same results.


----------



## LSummer

MartyStrat54 said:


> LSummer-You can use a "Y" cord like that, but you will need to read what the impedance is on the mono plug end and make sure your amp is set to that load. You will need a multimeter to read the ohms on the plug.



Thanks for help!


----------



## rjtm

I dont know if this is on here already or not, but someone posted this video recently in another thread and I though it is an awesome way to hear the difference in tone between the speakers:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI]15 Speakers compared Celestion vs E.V. vs Eminence vs JBL vs Jensen vs Tone Tubby - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think it is RJ, but this thread is sort of large. Thanks for the add.


----------



## rjtm

no problem


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've seen some recent threads about speakers that I wish had been addressed over here.

I would like to hear your speaker questions.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Maybe its time to archive this thread and start a new one. This one is very large an unwieldy to find things in


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know. I'm a main contributor on the Preamp Tube thread and that thing is ridiculously huge.


----------



## AudioWonderland

OK Marty, here is a question. Looking at Avatar 2x12's. If I said I use old Marshall's and I want Larry Carlton / Bonamassa w/BCC / older school rock tones, are the G12H30 and G12M Greenbacks still the best choice? I am open to the Eminence speakers but what is hte purpose of buying a clone when the original is available?

Next question. In the same but seperate 2x12 cab, I want speakers for a clean sounds with Fender amps primarily. Looking for some depth and dimension. Possibly even with an open back. I am thinking something from the Patriot line but I am not certain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my experience tells me this. No clone is going to sound the same as the original speaker. Some sound better and others not so good. I am not a very big fan of Celestions. I run a pair of Man 'O Wars in my TSL122. These are G12T-75 clones. I can't stand G12T-75's, but I love the Man 'O Wars. 

What amp are you using with the H30 and 12M? That's a pretty low power setup. In your case the Wizard is the H30. I don't particularly like the Wizard. It is very efficient and handles a lot more power, but it has a lot of high end that I don't like. If you are happy with the Celestions, then stay with them.

As far as another cab for a Fender, I would recommend the Red, White and Blues. These work well.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well my experience tells me this. No clone is going to sound the same as the original speaker. Some sound better and others not so good. I am not a very big fan of Celestions. I run a pair of Man 'O Wars in my TSL122. These are G12T-75 clones. I can't stand G12T-75's, but I love the Man 'O Wars.
> 
> What amp are you using with the H30 and 12M? That's a pretty low power setup. In your case the Wizard is the H30. I don't particularly like the Wizard. It is very efficient and handles a lot more power, but it has a lot of high end that I don't like. If you are happy with the Celestions, then stay with them.
> 
> As far as another cab for a Fender, I would recommend the Red, White and Blues. These work well.



I don't expect a clone to be identical as odd as that sounds. Similar flavor at best. I want a cab with Greenback type tones. I think I will go with the the Celestions as the early cone breakup is what I like and I don't think the Emi's will have it. I may steal a pair of old ones from the 4x12 cabs before I sell since they are likely not original to the cab anyway.

Debating G12H30's / Classic Lead 80 / Eminence for the second cab. The 30's will probably break up pretty early which I don't want in cab 2. I have a pair of Texas Heats in a Bassman reproduction 2x12 so the Classic Lead 80's seem the obvious choice. Really want to like the Eminence stuff as its quality and well priced but I have a very specific sound in mind and they are not part of the equation unfortunately


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nothing wrong with going with what sounds best to you. That's what it all boils down to.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Are the 65's similar to 75's in so far as being a bit mid scooped and strong in the lows and highs, just not as extreme?


----------



## MartyStrat54

65's sound different than 75's. 65's are not mid scooped.The overall tone of a 65 is much sweeter than a 75. To me, there is no comparison.


----------



## AudioWonderland

On a somewhat related topic, I pulled up a session I did several months ago testing various combinations of amps/speakers/OD pedals through my ISO cab to see what worked best. Being a sealed enclosure throws out all of the traditional tried and true mic/speaker/cab studio combinations. Most of the setups used a vintage greenback but I did one setup that used the Tonespotter. 

Now several months removed and listening with fresh ears I am definitely preferring the Tonespotter/e906 combo in this setup. Its a little more "metal" sounding than I would like but the experiment continues....


----------



## demonufo

The 65's have got a little less mids than early G12M-25 75hZ greenbacks, but have got very little in common with the 75's whatsoever, and are much smoother.
The 65's seem to have a tiny bit less top end treble too (although in actual frequency terms I should be saying high mids, but you know what I mean  ). Certainly not as bright as the 75's.

G12M-65 is one of my favourite Celestions. Mine are keepers, my others (Alnico blues, G12H30 55hz Heritages) I'm not so sure about. Wish I'd have kept the 25W greenbacks that got shifted in a combo a long time ago though. In fact I regret selling the whole amp (2104), but somebody offered me double what I paid for it three weeks previous, at a time when I didn't really need it, or use it as much as my others.


----------



## gdh1532

One of the best sounded Marshall cabs I ever plugged into, had the celestions replaceed with the early EV SRO 12's (white coffee can/alnico). Talk about tight on the low end, super punchy, great mids, highs weren't over bearing. I owned an ampeg 412 that I through some old CTS 12's in .. It came close to the SRO's. had a little more mid-range punch though. 

I still like my old marshall cabs with stock 25W greenbacks (not reissues) and haven't been reconed. they have been through hell and still sound great.


----------



## joegb8

Hi Marty,
Re: JCM 2000 DSL 401.. I was thinking about switching out my Marshall Celestion GoldBack speaker for a Eminence Red Fang. Would love to hear any further comments from yourself on the differences etc or anything I should bare in mind before making the switch re: sound quality or in relation to tubes etc.
Joe


----------



## harajookers

Hi guyz, I'm new into the forum  
Want to ask something, 
anybody compare a peavey sheffield 12" with celestion vintage30? I'm lookin for a 'growl' tone with extra added gain.. Which one better for me?  
Thx b4


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would go with the V30's. What speakers can you get in Java? What brands?


----------



## harajookers

Mostly celestion.. (G12t75, rocket50, seventy-80), but v30's r really2 rare n expensive here.
Sometimes if u luck, u'll find old nice speaker such as rola celestion, old jensen, etc in pawn shop


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I would still pick the V30's over the Sheffields.

Too bad you can't get Eminence. I really like them.


----------



## harajookers

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I would still pick the V30's over the Sheffields.
> 
> Too bad you can't get Eminence. I really like them.



Yup, eminence man o war are cool.. Unfortunately, never seen it here 
Btw I have a halfstack laney gh100s (gh100ti), the cab's loaded with HH speakers made in UK, anybody know bout this speakers?


----------



## AudioWonderland

Marty have you tried the Tonespotter with a Private Jack?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I have. I did not like it that much. It is okay, but I like the Tonespotter with the Black Powder the best.


----------



## AudioWonderland

OK.. I am in total analysis paralysis... Looking for a Greenback type of tone for a 2x12 I am ordering. Two standard GB's is only 50w which really is not enough. The WGS Invader and Reaper HP are 50w each and could work. Scumback M75's with 65w voice coils are a potential choice. I am also considering an Invader/Reaper combo or scumback equivalent. A pair of Private Jacks is an options as well and @ 50w each have the power handling needed as well.

Unfortunately none of these are not readily available in a store to test drive and the sound clips of most of them are pretty bad. The WGS samples are pretty decent but I am not sold on the quality of them. The Private jacks would be quality stuff but I have never heard it. The scumback samples are really good but they are damn expensive.

So, do I throw a dart or flip a coin?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Eminence Legend GB128 is one you should look at. They are 50 watt speakers. Another GB clone. The Private Jack has a little more low end growl to it.

There are a lot of choices and it makes speaker buying very difficult. If you follow me, you know I like Eminence. They make a well built product.


----------



## AudioWonderland

AudioWonderland said:


> OK.. I am in total analysis paralysis... Looking for a Greenback type of tone for a 2x12 I am ordering. Two standard GB's is only 50w which really is not enough. The WGS Invader and Reaper HP are 50w each and could work. Scumback M75's with 65w voice coils are a potential choice. I am also considering an Invader/Reaper combo or scumback equivalent. A pair of Private Jacks is an options as well and @ 50w each have the power handling needed as well.
> 
> Unfortunately none of these are not readily available in a store to test drive and the sound clips of most of them are pretty bad. The WGS samples are pretty decent but I am not sold on the quality of them. The Private jacks would be quality stuff but I have never heard it. The scumback samples are really good but they are damn expensive.
> 
> So, do I throw a dart or flip a coin?



Ordered a pair of M75 65w Scumbacks. Expensive, but after listening to literally dozens, maybe hundreds of clips they had the sound I wanted. No point buying something else. I would be back to get these eventually anyway. 
So, with that covered I have one cab down one to go. Debating if I should get a different flavor of vintage or something more modern. Hmm......


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let us know how those Scumbacks sound. I don't have a lot of experience with them.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let us know how those Scumbacks sound. I don't have a lot of experience with them.



Will do. The cabs for them are several weeks away but I wanted to take advantage of a deal they were offering


----------



## AudioWonderland

AudioWonderland said:


> Ordered a pair of M75 65w Scumbacks. Expensive, but after listening to literally dozens, maybe hundreds of clips they had the sound I wanted. No point buying something else. I would be back to get these eventually anyway.
> So, with that covered I have one cab down one to go. Debating if I should get a different flavor of vintage or something more modern. Hmm......



The budget would probably reach for a another set of Scumbacks. Maybe the Blackback series or one of the LHDC speakers.

On the other hand, for that kind of scratch I could get a couple pairs of Eminence or even the new cream back Celestions.

Tonespotters / Governors maybe?


----------



## AudioWonderland

How does the class feel about the Eminence Red White and Blues?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I run a pair of Red, White and Blues in a Randall 212 combo (open back). This is a SS amp and they sound really good. The R, W and B is supposedly more like the Jensen sound. Eminence states it is great for Southern rock and blues.

Just so you know, the Randall is a mint RG-90A (100 watt) that I paid $67 for and $45 to ship. The speakers are worth more than the amp.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> I run a pair of Red, White and Blues in a Randall 212 combo (open back). This is a SS amp and they sound really good. The R, W and B is supposedly more like the Jensen sound. Eminence states it is great for Southern rock and blues.
> 
> Just so you know, the Randall is a mint RG-90A (100 watt) that I paid $67 for and $45 to ship. The speakers are worth more than the amp.



Hmm... Not sure if thats what I am looking for. Will keep investigating


----------



## MartyStrat54

What sort of tone are you looking for?


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> What sort of tone are you looking for?



How would I describe it.....
"Modern British dirty sounds, but not metal" combined with "Smooth, fusionish lead tones with a little Satriani mixed in." 

"Alternative voice to compliment the traditional Greenback sound" Not planning to use them together. I want this cab to have a different sound.

Thinking Tonespotters are an option. Maybe the Governors. I heard a WGS Vet 30 that was killer in a shootout with a V30 for a metal piece but I don't do metal. The WGS Invader and Reaper HP are nice but are very vintage sounding which I have covered.. The Blackback and large dust cap variety's of Scumbacks are interesting but are spendy. 

Been using vintage Greenbacks for 15years. I know what I want for that sound and that was an easy choice. Its the alternative voiced cab I am struggling to fill


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, it is tough to experiment with speakers. I have spent thousands of my own money doing speaker shoot-outs.

If you followed this thread, you will see my favorite pairing is the Tonespotter and Black Powder. The Tonespotter by itself has a distinct sound. The Black Powder makes it a little thicker sounding. The Tonespotter has a British flavor, but not really a Green Back sound. The Governor and Texas Heat is another solid pairing. If you like the Governor, try out the Man 'O War. I have a pair of these in an open back TSL122. Incredible power and tone.


----------



## cylon185

Hey guys (Marty)

Some of you may know I'm in the process of building a Blackface Twin head.
I have a '70ies 1935B with V30xH30s in a x pattern that i'm planning to use with it.

It's a 16ohm now, so i'll just rewire to get the 4ohm required for the blackface.
The problem is, it's only 120W.
I won't crank the blackface (don't wanna die) but I don't really feel confident.

Here is my question : if I ever want to get a more "classic" Fender speaker setup, do you have any advice on what to try ?

I have read that

1/ Eminence Patriot Red White & Blues (would make it a 480W cab...)
2/ Jensen C12N (200W cab)

Aren't bad.

Any suggestions ?
Also, would you buy 4ohm speakers and do a parallel/series wiring or 16ohm and do a parallel only wiring ?

Cheers


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your probably going to have to do the four, 16 ohm speakers in parallel. It's real hard to find 4 ohm guitar speakers, decent one's that is. The Texas Heat is available in 4 ohms and that is about the only one from Eminence that comes to mind.

Yeah, the Red, White and Blues supposedly pairs up real well to a Fender amp, but it is only available in 8 ohm so it won't work in your cab as far as the impedance goes. I never was much of a fan for modern Jensens. Some of the old alnico Jensens sounded good, but they are real expensive.

Eminence has some real good speakers that they only make in 8 ohms. This kills them as a possibility for your cab.

The Governor's and the Texas Heats pair up real nice. I'm running a 412 cab loaded with them. I sold my best cab to a real talented younger guy in Kansas City. It had the Tonespotters and Black Powders. I've got so much stuff. I really need to unload some of it.

You are going to have to limit your search to 4 or 16 ohm speakers if you need a 4 ohm final load.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your probably going to have to do the four, 16 ohm speakers in parallel. It's real hard to find 4 ohm guitar speakers, decent one's that is. The Texas Heat is available in 4 ohms and that is about the only one from Eminence that comes to mind.

Yeah, the Red, White and Blues supposedly pairs up real well to a Fender amp, but it is only available in 8 ohm so it won't work in your cab as far as the impedance goes. I never was much of a fan for modern Jensens. Some of the old alnico Jensens sounded good, but they are real expensive.

Eminence has some real good speakers that they only make in 8 ohms. This kills them as a possibility for your cab.

The Governor's and the Texas Heats pair up real nice. I'm running a 412 cab loaded with them. I sold my best cab to a real talented younger guy in Kansas City. It had the Tonespotters and Black Powders. I've got so much stuff. I really need to unload some of it.

You are going to have to limit your search to 4 or 16 ohm speakers if you need a 4 ohm final load.


----------



## johnfv

cylon185 said:


> ...a more "classic" Fender speaker setup, do you have any advice on what to try ?...


Many of the classic Fender combos/cabs were 2x12. Also, some Fenders could be bought with upgraded speakers - I've always liked the classic JBLs for clean Fender tone (the D120F or the K120). I still have an old K120 in a 1x12 that sounds great. I had a Twin from around '80 or so that came stock with EV speakers - sounded killer also. Of course JBLs and EVs are not cheap (and are heavy too!)...


----------



## cylon185

Thanks guys, I need to think about this...


----------



## J. Burns

Just bought two Cannabis Rex and two Private Jacks on eBay to replace the nasty-ass G12-75Ts in my JCM 800 cab. Not sure if I'm going to X-pattern then, or stack PJs on top and CRs on the bottom. Any tips?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would recommend the CR's on the bottom and the PJ's on the top. This will give you a tighter low end and more pronounced mids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Notice: I will be spending less and less time over here. If you can't reach me, I can be found over at the new Marshall Heads Forum. You are welcomed to join me over there.

Marshall Heads Forum &bull; View topic - Speaker Question or Discussion?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well this thread hasn't been viewed in about a year. Of course, I haven't been around much until about a month ago.

I wanted to post and say that Eminence has dropped quite a few speakers from their lineup. My favorite pairing of the Black Powder and Tonespotter is now no longer available. They have also dropped some of their newer Alnico 12-inch guitar speakers that came out just a couple of years ago. Funny, they are still selling the Red Fang. It must sell good at $249 each. They are still selling the Maverick and the Reignmaker. These are the speakers with the variable tone and output (you twist the magnet to make the change).

Whenever I see this, it tells me that they had to trim their costs. Most of the old standards are still there, but they have dropped quite a few. Just thought that I would toss this info out on the forum, in case you are interested in Eminence speakers.


----------



## Micky

Thanks for the update Marty.
Nice to see you back here a bit more often.

What is the Eminence equivalent of the Celestion 70/80?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Micky. Probably the closest would be from the Legend Series. The V128 would be similar, but of course, not exact. It is a very nice speaker at a reasonable price.


----------



## lowinput

I've think all speakers have a unique sound all to their own, a 'thumbprint' if you like.
Even the same speakers in different rooms sound different.
All we have is the speakers themselves as a reference. We must believe the speaker, when it says "there's too much bass". we must adjust the amp settings accordingly.

In the end, all we do is listen and adjust the amp settings to suit the speakers. 

you should ask yourself, "do these speakers produce the frequencies I want to hear?"


----------



## Hillcountry

Interesting news about Eminence. I love their speakers. I only just recently pulled the cannabis Rex out of my JTM45 in favor of Weber silver bell AlNiCos. The Cannabis Rex are going in a pro reverb I am building. The GB128 is still one of my absolute favorite speakers and I am glad they are still in the Eminence lineup.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Bummer regarding the Tonespotter but not entirely surprising. It was only available in 8ohm which kind of takes it out of the running in many applications. I may need to find a backup for mine while there is still stock around


----------



## mickeydg5

Honestly I was amazed that Eminence carried so many models. I think they may design something, watch it for a while and if it does not sell enough it gets dropped. But still they have a bigger line than anyone else.


----------



## Micky

mickeydg5 said:


> Honestly I was amazed that Eminence carried so many models. I think they may design something, watch it for a while and if it does not sell enough it gets dropped. But still they have a bigger line than anyone else.



I love Eminence speakers just for this fact.

Plus they are made in America.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said, they had some new Alnico speakers that came out in 2010 I believe. One called the Black Mountain that was a very fat sounding speaker with more low end than the Black Powder, but was only a 35 watt speaker if I remember correctly. It got a lot of good reviews, but it cost $279. The Red Fang, which has been around for a long time is still available.

AudioWonderland-I looked at what was available at several large Eminence retailers and they do not carry the discontinued speakers anymore.


----------



## 4210

I've been following this thread.


----------



## 4210

Damned browser or board software just lost a long descriptive post i've just written opining on a pair of 1997 Ampeg/Eminences i own :/
So i'll just fire my question. Anyone can match these ampeg speakers to eminence models? Thanks.


----------



## Micky

Probably the Legend series.
Which Ampegs are you wondering about?

Pretty easy to match things up according to the info on their website.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Parts Express has a limited stock of Black Powders and Tonespotters. Get em while you can.


----------



## LuredMaul

www.usspeaker .com seems to still have your favorites Marti


----------



## Micky

LuredMaul said:


> www.usspeaker .com seems to still have your favorites Marti



Call them first... They update their website once a year whether it needs it or not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hated to sell my modded 1960A cab, but the guy who bought it was a very good player in a band in KC. I wanted to give it a good home. He got a really great sounding cab. The best I have ever had. I did a pictorial review of it in this thread. It had two Tonespotters on top and two Black Powders on the bottom. It was an 8 ohm cab, but you only need one in today's world. The guy played it and bought it on the spot. Yep, it sounded that good. 

Note-I had also cut two, 4-inch holes in the back and installed two aperiodic vents that make the speakers think they are in a bigger cab. I also installed white, 2-inch thick fiber fill to the back and one side. This cab had the baddest, fattest palm mutes I have ever heard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Eminence has introduced a new 8-inch speaker, the 820H. 

Eminence offers big sound from an 8 inch guitar speaker | Eminence Speaker


----------



## Reginald

hi Marty, do you or does anyone know about Fane speakers of mine telling for how many watts they are/have?
info i have so far:
8 Ohms
the following numbers taken from the frame - 580 & 12591 & 36/73 (this one stays for 36th week of 1973, suppose)
thanks in anticipation of any help


----------



## Reginald

hi Marty, do you or does anyone know about 12" Fane speakers of mine telling for how many watts they are/have?
info i have so far:
8 Ohms
the following numbers taken from the frame - 580 & 12591 & 36/73 (this one stays for 36th week of 1973, suppose)
thanks in anticipation of any help


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello. Those look to be around 35 watts each. They look very similar to many of the Fanes I reconed in the mid to late 80's.


----------



## Reginald

35watts.ok. i purchased em on ebay last year. look good. just one crap on the ring of one of em but that kind of glue employed to reconed it looks nice and elastic. a good job if that was you  these are my first alnico speakers i get/got ever. ive not tried to play them yet coz ive little time but in future, sooner, i'll try to mount em into a cab. look great, and i bet ey will sound as nice as my celestions (or better too)


----------



## MartyStrat54

When I played in a cover band with two Bassman heads, I had (2) 212 cabs loaded with Fane's. Hell of a good tone.


----------



## Reginald

good to know  btw that 36/73 code number is just onto one speaker only (the one w/o Fane label and white-metal not painted chassis), other one (the dark-grey chassis/frame one having fane's label/sticker has no 36/73 code (or nothing else like that) ..so what do you think about date of this speaker? looks different than other one. the color of magnetes look differents too. maybe different metallic/alnic composition? i dont know. also the paint onto the surround are a bit different. one has a darker grey one ,other one has a lighter and more brilliant grey paint


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, you know, I must have too much on my plate. Why do you think these are alnico's? They look like square ceramic magnets to me. Alnico magnets are usually round with a bell (cap) over the back of the speaker. Here is a picture of a Fane alnico that they have made for a long time.


----------



## Reginald

Really? i thought they were alnico's coz those square magnets are made of metal (alnico, suppose) not made of ceramic. not to mention i had read 'bout in the past some alnico loudspeakers had square magnets too. don't ceramic ones have a ceramic-made magnet? mine are made of metal alloy as pictures show. what's/where's the magnete? isn't magnet that metallic square piece of metal as my pics show? they are solid square pieces of metal alloy. i called em "alnico" (now im go sleep. here its 4:15AM see you later. ciao  )


----------



## MartyStrat54

The piece on the bottom is called the back plate and it is metal. Then the magnet and then the top plate. The basket is fixed to the top plate.

Look around the edge of the magnets. Are there any chips or small chunks missing? That's a sure sign of a ceramic magnet. ALNICO is very hard and it won't chip like that.


----------



## Reginald

MartyStrat54 said:


> The piece on the bottom is called the back plate and it is metal. Then the magnet and then the top plate.


 like a sort of sandwich or pancake
hi, yes one of two does have a little chip a small chunk missing up/onto the edge of angle/corner.
yeah now i think you're right. i had forgotten "magnet" means a material or object that produces a magnetic field. i thought magnet fiel came from other parts. so i thought it was alnico coz looks metal-made and not ceramic coz believed ceramis is white as a ceramic plate or a ceramic cooking pot does  sorry bro. (yes actually ive never seen a ceramic magnet too. all speajers i saw had their own cover on). what short of money do these go for nowdays? are good and worth like celestion greenbacks or are cheaper?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well from the pictures, it looks like they should be reconed. They don't have the value like old Celestions or ROLA's. 

As far as tone goes, the Fane's are very nice in a guitar cab.


----------



## Reginald

i'ld want use em for a 2x12 speaker cab so they can be a good job
btw how to do to recognize if a speaker was reconed or not? i dont know


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if it was professionally done with factory parts, you can't tell. 

The "spider" is the round cloth like circular part that attaches the cone to the basket. Do you see any scratches in the metal (from someone removing the old spider)?


----------



## Reginald

well, i gone to put an eye again and well actually i was wrong. the one with the Fane's sticker is the one with the little chunk missing onto the edge and this looks painted completally. also magnet is grey painted so here's the why of the different color between this one and other-sticker-missing speaker's one. And that paint is the why it looks as cracked: actually it's just the paint cracking because the back plate edge has smooth perimeter edges, so its own external perimeter does not pmatched completally with the frame top surface, but its own perimeter seides/ends (the edge of the board) remains raised (coz its own edge thickness is round not suqare).


----------



## Reginald

spiders looks pretty stock and very good condition. now the shots sucks enough matter of my smartphone which doent own autozoom (so i used a lens/magnifier in front of it ) but the Fane w/o sticker (its own magnet presents/shows no cheaps or chunks missing) shows one sort of painted-by-chalk "H" letter onto his own cone near the spider. The spider color is lighter and more yellow than this, but i shooted them in my room with not too much light, so they look more reddy color. However when/if i try to tap my tips onto the cones paper, so one speaker sound a bit different like other one: the H-marked sounds a little bit looser while other cone sounds little bit tighter


----------



## MartyStrat54

That picture with the chunk missing out of the magnet shows that it is ceramic. I don't like that crack between the top plate and the basket. Can you turn the speaker on its face (cone down) and see if you can move the magnet. Does the crack move and get wider?

Those shots of the spider show that they are extremely clean (no dust). Did you say these came out of a sealed cab? It's hard to tell if the speakers have been reconed.


----------



## Reginald

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can you turn the speaker on its face (cone down) and see if you can move the magnet. Does the crack move and get wider?


 the magnet is immobile and fixed. who wants move magnet so should detach the stiocker then srew the bolt off. yes, the paint is a bit cracked. but if you consider other speaker has no paint on, and it's possible note how the plate edges are not sharp, but rounded corners/edges. not to mention the paint in the first speaker is there just on one side. imho they are not reconed. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Those shots of the spider show that they are extremely clean (no dust). Did you say these came out of a sealed cab? It's hard to tell if the speakers have been reconed.


 not. i dont know. the dealer, a british, told me he doesnt know about them. didnt know about wattage or about nothing. he found them loose(not inside any cab) in the basement or something place like that. he stored them inside a box


----------



## Reginald

BTW Why do they have a "square" magnet? what differences are there between a standard classic round magnet and a square one?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Because ceramics can be easily made into any shape. There is no advantage to a round or square magnet. They both can be made to the same magnetic strength.


----------



## Reginald

i've got it. squares ones are more atypical and unusual (expecially nowdays), arent em?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just wanted to let you know that Weber has a very wide variety of speakers. They have alnico, ceramic, hybrid alnico boosted with ceramic and NEO. Some of their speakers are designed to replace the JBL D Series speakers as seen in the following picture.






Perfect for the 212 Fender Combos or use in a 112 application as well. If you play a jangly Telecaster, this is your speaker.

Here is Weber's page for their various speakers. What is unique is you can get most models in either alnico or ceramic, which is pretty cool.

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/

Check out the California and Chicago series under High Power Series.

The British Series is incredible. Check out their 1265. This is a clone of the Celestion G12-65, but Weber gives you the option of different cones so you can dial in the high end. Sweet!

Spend some time browsing the Weber site and get familiar with their product.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Another much talked about speaker is the new Eminence Eric Johnson model. This is getting rave reviews. 



> Eric Johnson, George Alessandro and Eminence have teamed up to create the EJ1250, a 50 watt alnico guitar speaker that delivers amazing vintage tone. Featuring both American and British characteristics, the EJ1250 has punchy lows, warm throaty mids, and articulate highs. The EJ1250 was designed from the past with the future in mind, and is made by hand right here in the USA.



Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


----------



## mickeydg5

I noticed Weber has quite a selection.

Those EJ1250s do appear to be nice but have a heftier price.
Canis Major sounds very similar.

I kind of still like the presence and top end of the Red Fang sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, I like the Red Fang. It has a good following. Eminence raised the price on them, but they are cheaper than the Canis Major. Eminence cut quite a few of their models. I was sad to see the Black Mountain go. It had more bottom end than the Canis Major. They also dropped two of my favorites, the Tonespotter and the Black Powder. These two speakers were the best pairing I ever came up with. I did a 1960 412 cab with them and a young guy played through it and bought it on the spot for $700. Now they are no more. I think Parts Express may have a few left in stock.

If you notice on the Weber site, the alnico versions are about double of what the ceramics are. I really like those Chicago ceramics (I believe they are $112 which is a competitive price). The California Alnico is a very clean speaker like the JBL D120. This is a good replacement for a lot of those old Altec, EV and JBL speakers.

Weber also lists most of the speakers their models replace, such as if you want a replacement for a particular model of a Jensen.

I think I'll go back there and look it over again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well after going through some more speakers on the Weber site, I see they have the more popular Celestions covered. However, most are alnico versions that you can get with a British paper cone or hemp cone. You can also custom tailor the amount of doping on the surround and some come with a NEO magnet sandwiched to the alnico or ceramic magnet.

Talk about fine tuning a speaker, Weber does it. 

And yes, the ceramic versions of the Chicago, California and Texas models are $112 each.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I noticed the same when visiting the Weber site. They actually stick to AlNiCo for some of the vintage tone clone speakers. Cool adaptations and the prices are reasonable. The only problem is that you cannot find a lot of shootouts or comparisons. I would like to hear more of them.

(There are no sound clips on the site. Did you find any?) Whoops, I see the youtube link; forgot about that. I will have to check it out some more.

I still always like the Blackbird when I hear it on the Rivera comparison and kind of use it as a reference.

It is a shame that Eminence dropped those speakers especailly the Tonespotter. A lot of people wrote positive stuff about it. All I can understand is that maybe some of the other speakers are very similar and were out selling those.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's all about sales. Apparently some of their models were lagging and they cut them.


----------



## mickeydg5

Actually looking at the Man O War specifications, it may have been the one to do the Tonespotter in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have nothing but good things to say about the MOW's. Mine are broken in nice now and they destroy the G12T-75 that they are supposed to be a clone of.


----------



## mickeydg5

And the name Man O War sounds very, well very masculine.
You can tell someone "Look here at my Man O Wars" and then do the Home Improvement gorilla mantra.


----------



## Reginald

MartyStrat54 said:


> They have alnico, ceramic, hybrid alnico boosted with ceramic and NEO


how to recognize a full alnico magnet to/than an hybrid alnico+ceramic+Neo one?

BTW these ones seem/look to sound gorgeous! [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR_RXl8_0co[/ame]


----------



## AudioWonderland

mickeydg5 said:


> Actually looking at the Man O War specifications, it may have been the one to do the Tonespotter in.



Nah, They really didn't sound anything alike.


----------



## mickeydg5

AudioWonderland said:


> Nah, They really didn't sound anything alike.


 
There has to be some reason for pulling the Tonespotter (a popular speaker ???). One of their other speakers has to be similar.

I do not know. I will ask Eminence.


----------



## AudioWonderland

mickeydg5 said:


> There has to be some reason for pulling the Tonespotter (a popular speaker ???). One of their other speakers has to be similar.
> 
> I do not know. I will ask Eminence.



Yeah, no one bought it. It was only available in 8 ohm which made it a difficult choice for a lot of applications


----------



## mickeydg5

You may be right.

Anthony's comments from Eminence were:
"The Tonespotter and a few other models were discontinued due to lack of demand."
and
"each had its own unique qualities. The most similar to Tonespotter is Private Jack."


----------



## MartyStrat54

AudioWonderland said:


> Yeah, no one bought it. It was only available in 8 ohm which made it a difficult choice for a lot of applications



Well the Black Powder was only available in 8 ohms, so I made a modified 1960 cabinet which was detailed on this thread with pictures and I loaded it with two Tonespotters on top and two Black Powders on the bottom. Out of the $4000 worth of Eminence speakers I bought (from Parts Express), the Tonespotter and Black Powder kicked major ass. Let's face it, an 8 ohm half stack and 100 watt head is more than enough for any live situation. Once the venue gets really large, then you run the cab through the PA.

Also, in a 212 cab, you could wire them in series for a 16 ohm load.

*MICKEY*-Glad you got a hold of Tony. I did multiple pairings with the Private Jacks and played them by themselves and I wasn't much of a fan of them. If Tony says a PJ is similar to the Tonespotter, it would have to be in the mids (above 500Hz) and the highs. The TS had better bottom. Remember the Tonespotter was the G12-65 clone. It would seem to be a popular speaker.

One of the standard Eminence pairings is the Governor and the Texas Heat. I tried this and it really didn't do much for me. To me the Texas Heats are very similar to the Private Jacks. The Jacks need to be paired with a speaker that has good bottom end. The Governor's just don't do it.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, that makes sense. The Tonespotter would seem to have better bottom end and I do not think the Man O War or the Private Jack will deliver the same. Maybe that is what Audiowonderland was getting across.

I definitely like my bottom end. But I like it all 55-5500 and beyond.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the MOW's have a lot more bottom than the Governor's, that's for sure. They have a thick, chunky tone and palm mutes will tear your head off.

Speaker frequency? Yeah I run the JBL D123's in my TSL602. They are rated 45Hz to 12KHz. Back in the late 50's, JBL had a special mount and you installed them in the wall between studs. For their time, they were an excellent one point source hifi speaker. Mine were made in 1961 and are in mint condition. The originals were rear mount only. They were gray in color. Then in the 60's, JBL modified the frame for front or rear mount and they were black. However, some people claim that the frame on the original was stronger and I have to believe that since I have owned both. Harvey Gerst, former JBL designer felt the D123 was the finest guitar speaker ever made.

The early JBL literature has the freq range being 30Hz to 15KHz, but I don't know about that. In a four cubic foot vented box, you can get a solid 40Hz out of it. Today, the D123 is still popular with most low watt tube amp geeks, but most use a nice tweeter to increase the high end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here are a few pictures of that modded 1960 cab with the Tonespotters and Black Powders.






Here's the back panel. I installed two aperiodic vents. These make the speakers think they are in a bigger cabinet. I also installed insulation on the back panel and one side of the cabinet to tighten up the bottom end.


----------



## Reginald

cool! an UFO is no match for those!


----------



## mickeydg5

D123 speakers are awesome. It is one great 12 inch speaker.
here is detailing

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/home-comp/d123/page1.jpg


----------



## Reginald

Permanent alnico magnets. mmhmmh what does "permanent" stay for? were there "removable" alnico magnet too? BTW what difference up the metal composition is there among nowdays alnico magnets to old ones?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It means the magnetism will stay constant, it won't get weaker over time.


----------



## mickeydg5

Or at least for 150 years +/-. Well, that is what I was told.


----------



## Reginald

MartyStrat54 said:


> It means the magnetism will stay constant, it won't get weaker over time.


 ops now i get it, thxs a bunch


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I was going to post that same damn spec sheet. If you notice, they have the original wattage at 20 watts. They later amended that to 50 watts, but I think 40 is safer. I don't crank my 602 that hard and if I sold it, I would pull the JBL's as I can get $250 for the pair.


----------



## mickeydg5

Regi
You do much angling in the Montone or Ronco?


----------



## Reginald

i knew i preferred eat much more montone meat before starting to become vegan. what does "angling" mean? translate didnt find it ..its impossible haunt a montone (a ram) by a fishing rod. and what a "ronco" is? maybe you meant "bronco" (bronchus). ahh you meant "ronco" the fish.. ok sorry, you're right..i had been forgotten that name. a "lapsus" of mine sorry mate. well,actually im not a good fisherman..i prefer mountain style/life


----------



## mickeydg5

Angling like fishing. 
Yes, I hear you. I have not done any fishing since I was young.

I like lamb and do not think I have ever had actual ram especially caught on a fishing rod.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why I moved to this part of Oklahoma. It's called Green Country and it has many large lakes, rivers and streams. They just had the Bass Master's up at Grand Lake. I love to fish and hunt and this is the area to do it in.


----------



## Reginald

wOw Oklahoma! a far myth-land.. i had seen it only into some old far-west movie as this [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFrVoG-edFc]Far and Away (7/9) Movie CLIP - The Oklahoma Land Rush (1992) HD - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I am originally from Blackwell, Oklahoma and it was started from that Land Rush in your video.

Blackwell is about 12 miles south of the Kansas border where all the wagons and horses were waiting on the starting line.


----------



## Reginald

great bro. i invy you to live in a so gorgeous land!
BTW about speakers: nowdays many factories are producing alnico ones. My question is: does this nowdays alnico be the same identical stuff like the 40's-50's-60's ones..or the percentage of metal inside (and the composition of the alloy) is a bit different that the original vintage alnico? (for example the alnico of a nowdays celestion blue alnico vs 50's-60's ones). is the same identical alnico composition or old one is much more different (molecular strunctures,etc) and better? thanks


----------



## mickeydg5

AlNiCo is a recipe and it has its variations or grades same as other metals . Of course they use today's technology to aid in manufacture but I would think it is the same as yesteryear.


----------



## Reginald

ok


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, if you are making alnico 5, you make it to the same formula as in the 50's and 60's.

Alnico is very expensive to manufacture in today's economy. One thing about alnico is it is very hard and will last long after you are dead.

I think the new NEO speakers are very interesting. They are very powerful for their size and reduces the weight of a 412 cabinet. I think in the next few years we will see a better selection of NEO guitar speakers.

Neodymium Series | Eminence Speaker


----------



## mickeydg5

It is my guess that Neo has stronger properties than AlNiCo resulting in a need for stiffer suspension and cone. That is propbably why Neo speakers generally have a more sterile and direct sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I heard that NEO magnets were designed for automotive use in electric car seats. The motor is much smaller than say a 1965 Cadillac.

Magnet selection definitely makes a difference in flavor.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm pissed. After talking about my JBL D123's, I started thinking about putting in higher wattage speakers. I had a Parts Express 2013 catalog so I called as they still had the Black Powder and Tonespotter listed. Well both were discontinued, so I can't put that great pairing in the TSL602. It would have been perfect. Wired in series for 16 ohm and 150 watt power handling. Why? Why did they quit making them?

I'm now thinking about an 8 ohm Swamp Thang and an 8 ohm Tonker. This would give better than 102dB with one watt and 300 watts power rating. I've not paired a Tonker with the Swamp Thang. I'm also considering a Man 'O War.


----------



## mickeydg5

I noticed that those two speakers, Black Powder and Tonespotter, had the best combination of range, sensitivity and most of all resonance.

And they dropped both of them! I call bullshit on their claim to no demand. This is a marketing ploy.

I think they will be designing and moving neo's to fill this. Unless you want the Delta 12's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I spent a lot of money on Eminence speakers. I tried the Delta 12's. They are actually a mid bass PA driver. They "do not" have the traditional spike in the 2KHz range. They have a pretty flat frequency response. They roll off at 4.2KHz, so if you like sparkle, these won't do it. They do have great bottom end in a ported cab and I recommend them as a 412 pairing for anyone playing 7 string, drop tuned, or baritone guitars. Something with a little more top end will go nice with these. The fact that the Delta's are flat means you can use many different speakers with them and not get a harsh mid spike.

Now back to the BP and TS. Yes, I took into consideration the SPL, wattage and frequency range of these speakers, but sometimes you just got to hear them. They were both 8 ohm, 75 watt and very close on SPL. Perfect match on paper. Even better, they sounded killer together.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am not arguing the point, just making observation.
And you just sold it sort of speak.
Now Eminence will say try a Delta 12A or CommonWealth with a Swamp Thing or something to that affect.

The thing I do see coming is what I just brought up. Neo's are much stronger for the size. Using technology and applying it, speaker parts will be developed to create a Neo that will be more warm and full range covering 65-5500+ Hz.

The writing is on the wall. Neo's are less expensive than AlNiCo and some large magnet Ferrite speakers and lighter even still.

Again, this is my observation and Eminence is a forerunner.

Add: Other speaker companies are in the process and attempting as well.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsSrDvmQNBA[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

When the FED's passed the law about using steel shot on migratory birds, the shell manufacturer's took awhile before they could make a good steel load. Same with the speaker manufacturer's. They need to do a little research and I am confident that NEO's will take a large percentage of sales. I mean if you can get killer sound out of your 412 with good power handling and shave 25 pounds off the cabinet weight...I'm all for it.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I agree.
And there is the power handling factor. Neo setups in many cases can handle 2 and 3 times the power with a magnet weighing 15% of and less than most other magnet type structures. Very cool!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Came across these a while back. These are pro audio. The 10 inch could be useable as a guitar speaker with a frequency response similar to the Delta 12. Nice cast frame and very compact and light.

PodiumPro Audio


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not mind 10's if paired with something else that moves air.
The Podiums seem nice. I tend to like higher ranges and dB levels. 
Check out Eminence EPS-12C and Celestion Century is pretty good too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of PA drivers are in the 97 to 99dB range nowadays. When I was heavy into PA, those massive JBL's were hard to beat. One of the more popular guitarists in Phoenix and a friend of mine, Chuck Hall was a great blues player and he used Fender amps. He came to me to build him a 215 cab with JBL D-130's. Those speakers were rated at 105dB. That is one efficient speaker. With a 60 watt amp, it would be as loud as a 200 watt amp with 100dB speakers! Chuck played my cab for a long time until he got a full fledged endorsement with Fender. He now plays internationally and is a rep for Fender out of Scottsdale, AZ.

Our band had two floor monitors with D-130's. Man, they were nice. That and a JBL Bullet tweeter. If you couldn't hear yourself, it was time to give it up. Our PA used those huge JBL K151's for sub's and a horn loaded cab with JBL 2220's for mid bass, 4 JBL D-110's for upper mids and 2440's for the highs. All JBL electronic crossovers. One hell of a system for 1985. I was a really big fan of JBL. I liked their product over the other pro brands because they had great customer service for kits and diaphragms and they could handle more power. They also had a speaker for every stage/PA application. Those 2440's were so efficient, we barely turned the amp up. Four inch diaphagm and over a 20 pound alnico magnet. 

Those were my glory years.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh man for PA's 94-97 dB is fine, plenty of PA power to push those things beyond loud. For guitar amplifiers I like efficiency.

I have a JBL D130F and a 2220J in my room for safe keeping. I swapped out speakers in a custom cabinet that had the 2220J and two 2118Hs for vintage Jensen P15N and P8Ps. Much more warmer and chimier. I must add, they distort and play metal in an awesome way as well.

I liked Chuck's site intro and saw a video, Chuck and Chicken. His green flame strat is cool but the trippy thing was the death mask guy with the horn in hand and chicken on his shoulder.


----------



## Reginald

mickeydg5 said:


> Oh man for PA's 94-97 dB is fine, plenty of PA power to push those things beyond loud. For guitar amplifiers I like efficiency


is it possible convert a PA in his equivalent plane guitar amp version replacing just a few caps or will it need a full massive replacementt? (the OT, almost the whole cicuit,etc)


----------



## mickeydg5

I am not sure I understand your question.

We are talking speakers only. I would not modify an amplfier to suit speakers.
A speaker's character is just as important or sometimes more important than the amplifier itself.

Now if you are talking about modifying a vintage Marshall PA tube amplifier to be more like a Marshall Lead tube amplifier, people do that quite often.

When I was referencing PA amplifiers above that was about house or system PA's which are pushing 1000's of watts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sold off all my expensive speakers before I left Phoenix. I had quite a collection since I did work at a pro audio company. I loved those 2220's and I also like the 2235's for low end. I built custom car audio systems and I put two 2235's in the back of a Buick Regal. I wired the two in parallel for a four ohm load and then they were hooked up to a 1000 watt amp. They were only ran up to 100Hz and then electronically crossed over to the rest of the system. The custom box was tuned to 40Hz. It was so powerful that it broke all the spot welds on the X brace on the trunk lid. I also recommended that he have a door glass down to relieve air pressure in the cab. That system took a split alternator that provided 100 amps for the car and 100 amps for the sound system. I installed two large marine batteries in the trunk (with what little room was left) for additional power supply. It was a $6000 install, but he was a drug dealer and paid me cash.


----------



## Reginald

mickeydg5 said:


> When I was referencing PA amplifiers above that was about house or system PA's which are pushing 1000's of watts.


ah ok, now i get it. i think you meant:


mickeydg5 said:


> ..modifying a vintage Marshall PA tube amplifier to be more like a Marshall Lead tube amplifier


----------



## MartyStrat54

Meant to send a message to Anthony over at Eminence. Didn't get it out until this morning. I'm hoping he can help me locate a Black Powder and a Tonespotter. Eminence has many large distributors across the US and I'm thinking surely someone still has a few of these lying around.

Boy I hope so. I should have done this before I moved.


----------



## mickeydg5

I see the two of them online and it is claimed in stock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What company? Pray tell.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DONE! Musician's Friend had them in stock ready to ship. Free shipping as well. I should have them in about 5 days if they come from Kansas City.

I needed to update my info on Musician's Friend. This gave me an excuse to do it.

Happy, happy, me.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Hey Marty, I have two EV TL806 cabinets loaded with Celestion 4 ohm G12T100's. Would these sound OK with my JTM60? I used them with a Peavey Valveking years ago. They sounded nice with that head.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if each cabinet is four ohm, you won't be able to use both of them. I'm not real familiar with your amp. On the back panel, it should state what loads the amp will run. It needs a four ohm output to run "one" four ohm speaker.

Putting the two together would make a two ohm load and that will burn the Output Transformer up. The one in that amp is not real beefy.


----------



## mickeydg5

whoops, no comment.
I read that right but understood it wrong.


----------



## MartyStrat54

okbassplayerguy said:


> Hey Marty, I have two EV TL806 cabinets loaded with Celestion 4 ohm G12T100's. Would these sound OK with my JTM60? I used them with a Peavey Valveking years ago. They sounded nice with that head.



Also ED, if you use a four ohm load, make sure you disconnect the combo speakers. Okay?


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I see the two of them online and it is claimed in stock.



You never did state where you saw them. I just took a chance and looked up Musician's Friend because they warehouse out of Kansas City.
 
I guess I didn't do a very good job of looking.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> You never did state where you saw them. I just took a chance and looked up Musician's Friend because they warehouse out of Kansas City.
> 
> I guess I didn't do a very good job of looking.


Oh man I saw several places with in stock claims.
Most stuff like music123, musiciansfriend, guitarcenter
and there was pulseonline
USspeaker had the Tonespotter only 

I suppose those were dropped recently. I am sure that there must be some in wharehouses. Did you find out if Eminence still has any at the factory/wharehouse?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll hear from Tony on Monday. I already sent him another email telling him I scored.

Wow you did some looking. That must of took some time. I went to MF and put "guitar speakers" in the search bar and about 14 pages came up. I had to go through 8 pages to find the Black Powder (which had $5 taken off of the regular price). I put it in my cart and when I did, low and behold a small window opened with six other speakers and one of them was the Tonespotter, so I didn't have to look for that one.

I should have been smart enough to look at the obvious, but when Parts Express didn't have them, I freaked. I always bought from PE because they have free shipping on speakers. Well MF stated free shipping with any order over $25, so that was a plus.

I think these speakers were discontinued in late November. And I also believe that Eminence shipped out all available stock to their big dealers/distributors. I know there is a guy in Chanute, KS that is a master distributor and I'll bet he has some. Chanute is just north of me across the Kansas border.

You never can tell what sort of inventory MF, GC, Music123, etc. has. Something tells me they don't have a bunch of these speakers left. I'll check in about 4 weeks to see if any of them has them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder how many people saw my speaker article on the Black Powder/Tonespotter pairing? The reason that small window opened, was because it said, "Other items bought with the item you selected." There was the Tonespotter.

Coincidence??? Maybe...maybe not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Coming soon...











Tick...tick...tick


----------



## mickeydg5

How many days till Christmas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What's coming out.


----------



## Cadblaster

If anyone is looking for a Tonespotter,,, I've got one I might be willing to trade for something I can use.........


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I was, but I didn't want it unless I could score a Black Powder. They are discontinued, but I found both of them on Musician's Friend.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MICKEY-Damn! MF has already shipped the speakers. I already got a tracking number. And they have a new agreement with UPS that shaves up to 24 hours off the delivery time.

No wonder more people are buying online. I buy most of my stuff that way. Hell I just got a new Serta Perfect Sleeper King mattress on SEAR's online and saved over 50 per cent. Free delivery...hard to beat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and I already have the JBL's pulled and listed on EBAY. Starting bid $245 with a Buy It Now @ $275. I want to sell them. One guy was asking way too much and his didn't sell.


----------



## AudioWonderland

I need a British flavor speaker that is light in the low end. I designed and built a nice large ISO cab but even with the additional cubic feet and very generous amounts of Rockwool there is still some low end build up. I have been looking at the Wizard and the Governor. Any suggestions? I have a ToneSpotter in it now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Both the Wizard and the Governor drop in bass at 100Hz. The Wizard has a lot more high end and is not suitable for open back installations. The Governor is a mellow, British sounding speaker. Another to look at is the 8 ohm, Legend V128.

The problem may be with the ISO cab. Did you follow acceptable plans? You state "additional cubic feet." Just how large is the box. If it is too big with the rock wool, that could cause boominess. 

The Tonespotter is Eminence's clone of a Celestion G12-65. It has now been discontinued. One of my favorite speakers.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Both the Wizard and the Governor drop in bass at 100Hz. The Wizard has a lot more high end and is not suitable for open back installations. The Governor is a mellow, British sounding speaker. Another to look at is the 8 ohm, Legend V128.
> 
> The problem may be with the ISO cab. Did you follow acceptable plans? You state "additional cubic feet." Just how large is the box. If it is too big with the rock wool, that could cause boominess.
> 
> The Tonespotter is Eminence's clone of a Celestion G12-65. It has now been discontinued. One of my favorite speakers.



Acceptable plans? I was never able to find such a thing. I just went with the knowledge I had, what was practical and what seemed to make sense. The business end is ~ 24x30x28. the speaker end is 24x12x28. Both measurements are without the Rockwool. I built a transmission line in the bottom to let the pressure equalize when the speaker moved instead of a port in the baffle. Hard to say what impact it has had since I have not tried it without them yet.

It actually sound pretty decent. Infinitely better than the Randall ISO I was using. I am just trying to fine tune it

You can check it out here.

ISO Cab Build has begun

Sounds like the wizard might be a better choice..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice job. I like the looks of it and I have to agree with the guy who said to use a speaker with less low end. That is a pretty good size ISO box. Bigger than usual.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice job. I like the looks of it and I have to agree with the guy who said to use a speaker with less low end. That is a pretty good size ISO box. Bigger than usual.



I would agree as well... Trying to identify such a speaker has been problematic at best though....

Case in point. One person says a V30 is all mids and no low end. Sounds promising... The next talks about the big fat lows of their V30.... All of which is compounded by the fact that there are at least 3 version of V30.... And thats just one model of speaker!!!  LOL

I built the boxer bigger to help mitigate the issues common to the smaller designs. It would also allow for a lot of Rockwool to help absorb more thoroughly reflections and various boosts/cuts in frequency response when they meet. I knew it would still be far from perfect but I hoped those issues would be significantly reduced. It also has 2 layers of MDF on each side with Green Glue between to help add mass and reduce volume outside the box. It really does contain the sound well. I blasted a 15w tweaker dimed and you could easily have a conversation over the sound that was escaping.


----------



## Hillcountry

I was just a guitar center killing time and I noticed a special edition hot rod deluxe with a Wizard speaker. I tried that speaker in a similar set up and I think it is a terrible pair. Don't know why they would have done that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you saying the Wizards were OE?

There are a lot better choices than that. I would have gone with the Red, White and Blues.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, talk about fast. My new speakers did ship from KC and they already got here. 

They are already installed and the amp has been fired up. 

Excellent, just excellent and I can now crank it without fear of blowing any speakers.

Series wired for 16 ohms.


----------



## mickeydg5

The Wizard is OE in the Hot Rod Deluxe Silver-Noir two tone version.

I know I saw an Eminence sidenote somewhere stating not to use a specific speaker in combos or open back cabinets; wasn't that the Wizard?


----------



## Hillcountry

Also stock in the Red October

I tried two in a jtm 45 combo and they were really bad. In a closed 2x12 they sounded great. But not for an open back. The high mids are overpowering, there is a raspiness to them and I felt the tone was not good. 

In a bassman style 2x12 however they sounded awesome. 

Hill


----------



## MartyStrat54

From Eminence's website for the Wizard.

Mounting Information
Recommended Enclosure Volume
Sealed	Acceptable
Vented	N/A

Why would Fender pick them? That's just stupid. 

I asked Anthony about this in the past and he said even if a speaker wasn't suitable for either closed or open back, he said you could still use them, but the results might not be that good.


----------



## Gutsanglory

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, talk about fast. My new speakers did ship from KC and they already got here.
> 
> They are already installed and the amp has been fired up.
> 
> Excellent, just excellent and I can now crank it without fear of blowing any speakers.
> 
> Series wired for 16 ohms.




DAMN!!...that looks awesome!

Question for ya Marty, I bet its already been discussed in this thread, but im only about half done reading it. 
I am looking at getting a custom Birch 4x12 built, using quality wood, and parts.
Saxon Cabs: Handmade guitar cabs & Eminence Speakers
Has the Swamp Thang and Texas Heat been matched together yet? I'm looking for something with a full range, for good old heavy rock, and blues tones.

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Swamp Thang is great for heavy rock. I've never heard of anyone pairing it with a Texas Heat. Generally a Governor is paired with a Texas Heat and I believe that you can even buy this particular pair in one package from the bigger music chains. However, I tried that pairing in a 1960 cab and I didn't like it. It would probably be alright if you were the dedicated lead guitar player as this pairing will cut through the mix, but by itself it is a little thin.

I don't get my panties in a bunch over the ohm's rating of a 412 cab, because that's all you really need for any stage volume. With this in mind, you could go with an 8 ohm Swamp Thang and an 8 ohm Red, White and Blues. This would be a killer setup for a humbucker guitar and the RWB has a great tone for twangy country if desired. The Swamp Thang has good lows and the RWB has better highs.

Now I do want to add that the top end of the Swamp Thang is 4KHz and the RWB is 4.3KHz. If you want a brighter top end, then you will have to with a different pairing. The Texas Heat is around 4.6KHz. Remember that the ohm rating affects sensitivity and frequency response.

Post info about the guitar and pickups you use and whether you want a lot of top end sparkle or a smooth, warm top end. Do you like more booming bass or tight bass?

What are the dimensions for this cab?

Trying to dial in heavy rock tones with blues tones is not impossible, but I never really researched those two types of music out of one cab. I will say that most blues players use a speaker that has a warm top end going up to say a max of 4.7KHz. The average is probably around 4.3KHz.

The other thing to consider is sensitivity ratings. All the speakers, including the Texas Heats are all in the same ballpark for sensitivity. 

Maybe the Swamp Thangs and Texas Heats will work, because the ST's will provide the low end and the TH's will have good highs without being like say the Wizard which is over 5KHz.

The thing is, most guitar speakers all share a similar frequency response. That is a small peak around 1KHz, a larger dip at 1.5KHz and a major peak between 2 and 4KHz. However, the components of the speaker lend itself to the final tone. So some speakers pair nicely, while others get too boomy, or have too much mids, or too bright.

I spent $4000 with Parts Express on Eminence speakers. I made about $2500 back once I sold the speakers after testing them. It is expensive and can be a crap shoot. I will say that the Black Powder and Tonespotter provided the best overall tone for almost any style. It excels at classic rock and hot blues rock. Of course, that is what I play.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I looked at that Saxon 412 cab. It ain't that big. Extrapolating for internal dimensions, I come up with a little over 1.5 cubic feet per driver. A 1960 is 1.7 cf and most custom cabs are close to 2 cf.

FYI-This size cab will roll off the low end, probably starting at around 150Hz. This in turn will make the mids more pronounced.

There was a thread here with another small Canadian cab builder. He did very good work, but I can't remember his name or location.


----------



## Micky

My stack is made up of Swamp Thangs and Texas Heats.
The B cab has the ST's installed and the A cab has the TH's in it.

Personally I feel it is a good mix, but I don;t have a lot of experience using them separately. The Heats do sound brighter but not by much. So close it is really hard to tell. I get more feedback/squack from the Heats in the A cab.

I put these together when I had larger 400 watt amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a big rig, Micky. I'd like to hear that full stack. Yeah the Texas Heats have just a little more high end than the Swamp Thangs.

How is the low end? It's good that you put the Swamp Thang's on the bottom. In my 1960A cab that I showcased here, I put the Black Powders on the bottom. That sounded really good.

If you have posted this on this thread...I'm sorry, but I have slept since then. 

Now Clint is trying to read all of this and the Preamp Tube thread. Good grief.


----------



## Micky

Waaaay back when, I think I went over my stack. I dunno, I can't remember.
Anyway, I was using an Ampeg something or other with a bunch of pedals, as well as a Mode4 that was incredibly loud. Funny thing is, now I use it with a 15 watt Haze and I love it.
The DSL40c gets all the work these days, have yet to run either of the cabs with that one. Loaded a Heat into that and it sounds great in comparison to the 70/80 that was in there originally.

Can't say enough good about ST's and TH's. Great inexpensive speakers...


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hiya,

I'm playing a early 2006 (unchambered) LPS with original burstbucker pickups. I've not had a lot of experiance with Eminence speakers but I'm looking for good low end heavy tones and clear british mids. I do like clean agressive highs, but not when they get screechy. (chimes is good) I love playing old rock from the 60-80's. And am starting in with bluesy rock as well. My boy plays his HSS strat and rocks out pretty heavy. He grabs my Les Paul once in a while and gets going pretty good with metal tones. I'm looking for a good overall mix that will cover the greatest range. As this will probably be the only cab I buy for a very good length of time. Still kinda on the fence on either a 2x12 or 4x12. Of course the boys want the big rig, and the woman wants something smaller. It will be used for the occasionally outting with the boys in the huge garage. Or stay in the "rock-n-roll" basesment, that is quite a large open space. I have my 401 for travel and small gigs.

Guts


----------



## Gutsanglory

I have read all of this thread now..but yeah..the preamp and powertube threads are gonna take me a while.



Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well maybe you should consider the Swamp Thang and Man 'O War. This combination "in the right cab" would cover 70Hz to 5.5KHz. I believe that the MOW would give you the British flavor and the ST will add it's heavier tone (more bottom end).


----------



## Gutsanglory

If you were wanting to make the perfect sized 4x12, what kind of dimentions would you suggest. Saxon cabs will make them any size you want.
His default 4x12 birch is: 29"W x 29"H x 14"D

29.9 x 32.6 x 14.1 is the Marshall 1960

Looks like a few inches taller and almost 1 wider.

I have checked into the MOW and ST...that might be a workable combo!

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just think that 29 x 29 x 14 is too small. A 32 x 32 x 14 would yield almost 1.9cf, not counting for the deduction for the mounted speakers.

The Marshall is closer to 1.8cf per driver, but I usually go with 1.7cf, because people never take into consideration that the speakers themselves take up internal volume. All the more reason why the default cab is too small.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Ok...
I've asked for a quote on a new 4.12 cab with size:
30w / 33h /14d = 2.50x2.75x1.16=7.975=1.99cf per speaker
then you minus out speaker volume and center post/divider.
Should be pretty close.
Also asked for 2xMOW and 2xST all 16ohm.

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

That cabinet is now scaring me. It should be wicked and with the power handling of those speakers, it should be virtually bullet proof.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Wow...over a hundred and fifty just for shipping from eastern Canada to western. I think I'll just keep looking for a used cab that I can restore and build up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it would probably be more ($$$) if the same weight and shipping box went from New York to Idaho.

I would look for a used cab. A good bargain is certain Peavey 412 cabs. Built well and you can sell the speakers and put in the Eminence's. There are other less known brands of cabs that you can get. For quite some time I bought unloaded 412 cabs and then put good speakers in them and sold them for profit. Look for a cab built with plywood sides, top and bottom. MDF is okay for the baffle and the back panel. All plywood would be a plus. Make sure the speakers are mounted into T-Nuts. Speakers that are held in with screws are junk...avoid them.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Thanks Marty...I agree. I noticed a few Peavy cabs, but have not seen one up close yet...was not sure if they are junk or not. 
As you said, as long as the 4 sides are good quality plywood with hopefully some dovetail edging. I can and probablly will replace the front and back with better quality wood anyway. Maybe get a bit creative on the tolex, trim and grill.

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah the upper quality Peavey stuff is good, like the XXX or 5150 cabs. Most of these have Sheffield speakers in them. That's a good sign that you are looking at one of the better cabs.


----------



## CRobbins

Two different Tone Tubby's( ceramic, and alnico) in my mid-70s Fender Pro Reverb. Sounds great.


----------



## CRobbins

I built this speaker cab out of an old Baldwin organ that no longer worked. The speakers were still in great shape. I just chopped organ down, and reworked the cab. The speakers are 10 inch Jensens. 
I use this in my studio hooked up to my Mesa Boogie MK IV.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice, but aren't you afraid of blowing them. I mean what are those, 20 watt speakers?


----------



## CRobbins

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice, but aren't you afraid of blowing them. I mean what are those, 20 watt speakers?


 

All Jensen® Alnico speaker model numbers begin with the letter P, and are therefore often referred to as the P series. Next in the model number is the diameter of the speaker. Alnicos are available in the following diameters: 8”, 10”, 12” and 15”. Following the size is a letter which traditionally is used to designate the speaker power rating. For example, R (25 watts), Q (40 watts) and N (50 watts). 




P10Q | Jensen Loudspeakers


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I am familiar with the Jensen ratings. Those are a lot stouter than I thought.


----------



## CRobbins

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I am familiar with the Jensen ratings. Those are a lot stouter than I thought.


 
They sound great with the 12 inch JBL in the boogie amp. The bass response when I strum chords is awesome. The large cab may help also. It looks like an old hifi console. Lol..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I noticed there was some substantial wood that had to be cut to make the cab.


----------



## mickeydg5

CRobbins said:


> All Jensen® Alnico speaker model numbers begin with the letter P, and are therefore often referred to as the P series. Next in the model number is the diameter of the speaker. Alnicos are available in the following diameters: 8”, 10”, 12” and 15”. Following the size is a letter which traditionally is used to designate the speaker power rating. For example, R (25 watts), Q (40 watts) and N (50 watts).
> 
> P10Q | Jensen Loudspeakers


 
I have mentioned this before.
Jensen wattage ratings on their site are for later/current make speakers and not older/original/vintage speakers.

A vintage "Q" rating was 25 watt; current "Q" models are 40 watt.


----------



## CRobbins

mickeydg5 said:


> I have mentioned this before.
> Jensen wattage ratings on their site are for later/current make speakers and not older/original/vintage speakers.
> 
> A vintage "Q" rating was up to 25 watt; current "Q" models are 40 watt.


 
Maybe so, but they sound good, and there's been no problems in two years of playing through them.


----------



## mickeydg5

CRobbins said:


> Maybe so, but they sound good, and there's been no problems in two years of playing through them.


Nice speakers, worth some dough. They are from 1955.

Is the Mark 4 a head or combo?


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I have mentioned this before.
> Jensen wattage ratings on their site are for later/current make speakers and not older/original/vintage speakers.
> 
> A vintage "Q" rating was 25 watt; current "Q" models are 40 watt.
> 
> Nice speakers, worth some dough. They are from 1955.
> 
> Is the Mark 4 a head or combo?



That's what I was thinking. The new one's use NOMEX voice coil formers and that upped the wattage rating.


----------



## CRobbins




----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's what I was thinking. The new one's use NOMEX voice coil formers and that upped the wattage rating.


 
Yes, all of the newer materials help to up the wattage, especially the epoxy/glue.


----------



## mickeydg5

CRobbins
Yes it is a combo and it is splitting the overall wattage. Much better situation for those P10Qs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah when I was getting out of the pro sound (cuz the owner was a jackass), I couldn't believe the new materials/glues being used. A lot of the big sub woofers had KEVLAR spiders. That is some tough shit. I mean if a speaker is rated at 800 or 1000 watts, that is a lot of heat. You can cook meat with that.


----------



## CRobbins

mickeydg5 said:


> CRobbins
> Yes it is a combo and it is splitting the overall wattage. Much better situation for those P10Qs.


 
Right on. Thanks.
My next project is to build an extension cab for my newly acquired JCM800 2x12 combo. The speakers in the combo are G12m-70, 15 ohm.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice Les Pauls. I had a 69 Gold top for a long, long time. It got stolen in 1990.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, nice group of guitars. I like the cherry burst.
I had a 83 custom tobacco burst a long time ago. I did like it a lot because the previous owner had shaved the neck and it was nice but what I remember the most was its weight, damn heavy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I bought a brand new Les Paul Custom in 1974 from Ace Music in Florida. Shipped with a hard shell case...$444.00. Makes me want to cry every time I think about it.


----------



## CRobbins

I also have a pair of these JBL LE8T speakers. I got them about 30 years ago. They need to be repaired. Will they work in a guitar cab with two 12"s, or one 15"? Can I repair them myself? One is an LE8T, and the other is an LE8T-2.


----------



## CRobbins

More JBLs. I have 2 or 3 of these D130s laying around here. They are also in need of repair.


----------



## CRobbins

Here's a shot of the back of my mid-70s Fender Twin Reverb. JBL D120F.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice JBL speakers.
Pairing them up for guitar use might require changing impedances on one or a pair of speakers.
You can place a 15 and two 8's in one cabinet but would need separation.
It would be nice to keep the sizes to a cabinet each.
The 8's are only 20 watt a piece; can you get the wattage up with new materials?
I would look into that if reconing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can still get factory recone kits for the LE-8's. They run $226 plus labor. No 130 kits of any kind are available. There might be some around in various recone shops, but they would be real high dollar.

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers Parts List/Transducer Parts List.pdf (Page 15 for the LE-8.)

Before I moved, I got rid of my JBL collection. All the speakers were in good order. I didn't make the money off of them that I thought I would. I had two JBL E-140-8's that I sold to a bass player and I only got $185 for the pair. Crazy market out there.


----------



## CRobbins

MartyStrat54 said:


> You can still get factory recone kits for the LE-8's. They run $226 plus labor. No 130 kits of any kind are available. There might be some around in various recone shops, but they would be real high dollar.
> 
> http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Transducers Parts List/Transducer Parts List.pdf (Page 15 for the LE-8.)
> 
> Before I moved, I got rid of my JBL collection. All the speakers were in good order. I didn't make the money off of them that I thought I would. I had two JBL E-140-8's that I sold to a bass player and I only got $185 for the pair. Crazy market out there.


 
I was thinking about sending them to Orange County Speakers.
Official Speaker Repair Site - Orange County Speaker - Home of GLS Audio
My amp tech recommends them.
Not all at once, but as I can afford to get them reconed.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Forgive me but I didn't research my question cuZ I am not at home. I have a 2 x 12 cab with a 16 ohm crate speaker and a eminence private jack. If I am not mistaken, the private jack is an 8 ohm speaker. My question is, can these two go together? Or would this be a mismatch?


----------



## Gutsanglory

I'm so fr**kin stoked.... I grabed a used Marshall 1960 cab today, for almost nothing...a killer deal. Have verified its got 4 good working speakers, and nothing other than tolex wear. Will get it fired up tomorrow and see how it sounds with the 401 amp.

Couple shots of the new cab...




















Guts


----------



## mickeydg5

Gutsanglory said:


> I'm so fr**kin stoked.... I grabed a used Marshall 1960 cab today, for almost nothing...a killer deal. Have verified its got 4 good working speakers, and nothing other than tolex wear. Will get it fired up tomorrow and see how it sounds with the 401 amp.
> 
> Guts


What speakers are loaded in there?


----------



## Gutsanglory

I have not had the chance to remove the back and verify yet...they all work and are loud...I highly suspect G12T75 Celestion 75W speakers. They will work for now, I bought the cab basically for the name/quality of the cab, and I'm planning on loading it with a couple Eminence MOW and Swamp things. The guy said he never ever had the back off of it.
I'll be rippin into it tomorrow and checking everything for tightness.

Guts


----------



## Gutsanglory

Ok, So I dug into the new cab, its in really good shape and indeed has 4 matching G12T75 Celestions. The cab uses good plywood on all sides except for the back, It's particale board. 

Couple of things I noticed:
1- I really dont think this cab was ever opened ever, as the back screws were very firm and the cab shows no signs of ever being worked on.
2- The speakers were very very loose, tightened them all up, as well as all screws in the whole cab.
3- the soldering on the speaker jack board was total shit. I ended up resoldering all the connections. I tightened up all speaker wire clips.

Performed an overall cleaning of the cab and put it all back together, checked all my ohm readings, and fired it up.

The cab is totally awesome, even with the G12T75's as it adds a whole bottom end to the over all tone that was missing on just the single combo. I actually had to turn back the base a bit. I tried it by itself, and with the combo as well. The balance with the combo attached is good, for my ears and I think I'll leave it connected up too. 

So for all you'z out there, here is my new 5/8 stack. 






















Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

There you go. Great score. I'm glad something came by quick.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Thanks Marty, I'm pretty happy with it so far. Can only imagin what some MOW and ST would sound like in it.
I have a questions about breaking in speakers. I have heard that you can just hook up a stereo or ipod, and run tunes into the amp >> cabinet. How does one do this? Do you need a special cable adaptor?
Just wondering, cause i've heard that both the MOW and ST take forever to break in. I would most likely be playing them alot anyway, but if I can drive tunes into if for 24 hours to help along the process...that'd be even better. 

Thanks,
Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have an audio tone generator I use that works well. However, you can take one of the small, portable CD players and use an adapter that goes from 1/4 to mini on the CD player end. Just run this in your amp input. Turn it up. A bass heavy CD is best. If you don't have a small CD player, you can use a full size and it would require a 1/4 to RCA on the deck end. With a CD deck, you can have it repeat a bass heavy song over and over. You can but a slab of foam in front of the grille with a sheet over it so it doesn't get annoying. 

The MOW and ST sound pretty damn sweet right out of the box. Eminence speakers tend to have a stiffer than normal suspension, but once broken in, they last for years. I've seen the old square magnet Eminence speakers still kicking ass in a 30+ year old amp. Peavey used the shit out of them until they came out with the Scorpion speaker. I sold an original Peavey Deuce that had the square backs in it. That amp was old my friend and the speakers sounded great.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Anyone have any opinions on which speaker is best paired with an Eminence Private Jack (16 ohm) in a 2x12? I play punk and classic rock thru a 50 watt MKIII. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would go with a Governor (16 ohm). This will add more bottom to the Private Jack.

If you want a more aggressive tone, use an Man 'O War.

The Governor is matched better for sensitivity, the MOW is slightly hotter.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would go with a Governor (16 ohm). This will add more bottom to the Private Jack.
> 
> If you want a more aggressive tone, use an Man 'O War.
> 
> The Governor is matched better for sensitivity, the MOW is slightly hotter.




Thanks Marty. Would the differences in wattage be of concern? Also, I understand the Man o War is Eminence's version of the Celestion GT75. What is the Celestion equivalent of the Governor (if there is an equivalent)?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Governor is the clone of a V30. However, I would not really compare them as clones, because they have their own distinct voicing. The Man 'O War is supposed to be a clone of the G12T-75. It doesn't really sound like the 75. It is fuller and chunkier. I don't like 75's, but I love the MOW's. Same with the Governor, it has more balls than a V30.

The power rating is figured by taking the lowest wattage rating and multiplying it by the number of drivers. The Private Jack is 50 watt. Therefore 50 x 2 = 100 watt.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Governor is the clone of a V30. However, I would not really compare them as clones, because they have their own distinct voicing. The Man 'O War is supposed to be a clone of the G12T-75. It doesn't really sound like the 75. It is fuller and chunkier. I don't like 75's, but I love the MOW's. Same with the Governor, it has more balls than a V30.
> 
> The power rating is figured by taking the lowest wattage rating and multiplying it by the number of drivers. The Private Jack is 50 watt. Therefore 50 x 2 = 100 watt.



Ok thanks. So I shouldn't pay any attention to the fact that one speaker is 50 watts while the other is 75 or 150 or whatever...? The sensitivity seems to be close between the three...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Right. You can pair a 400 watt speaker with a 50 watt speaker and the rating of the cab would be 100 watts.

Yeah, I recommended those two speakers because they will match tone wise, are 16 ohms and have a close sensitivity rating.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> Right. You can pair a 400 watt speaker with a 50 watt speaker and the rating of the cab would be 100 watts.
> 
> Yeah, I recommended those two speakers because they will match tone wise, are 16 ohms and have a close sensitivity rating.



Thanks for the info Marty. Another question regarding wattage differences if I may:

If you have a 50 watter with a 100 watter, would it still sound ok since one is being pushed harder than the other? Would that matter at all?


----------



## mickeydg5

At 50+ watts, yes.
The 100 watter will still have plenty of headroom at 50+ watts output.

Oh, you mean speakers. Almost the same thing. The 50 watt speaker will begin to breakup before the 100 watter will.

LPM, I should add that on your 2500 amplifier both speakers will be fine, both recieving the same power from the amplifier at 25 watts plus when raising the volume up high.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes and if you add more power then the 50 watter will blow before the 100 watter.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Thanks guys, I think what I am trying to ask is:

If one speaker is being pushed to breakup, while the other still has a ways to go due to higher wattage, is that a good thing? Or will it sound funny due to one breaking up and the other being "cleaner"? Sorry if I wasn't asking the right question before....


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you have a 200 watt speaker that is 100dB with one watt and a 50 watt speaker that is 100dB with one watt in the same cabinet and you crank the amp up to say where it is putting out 50 watts, that means each speaker is seeing 25 watts.

At this point it is going to be one loud MF. 

Now if you put 100 watts into the cab, each speaker is seeing 50 watts, but you have to remember this is program power, which is a lot different than continuous power. Both speakers would be able to handle this.

Now if you go to 150 watts, both speakers are seeing 75 watts. The 50 watt speaker may handle this if it is program power, but you are getting in the area where damage could occur.

When I hear guys talking about their fear of blowing a 100 watt cab with a 100 watt amp, I have mixed feelings about this, because most of these guys are not going to have the amp cranked all the way and the signal to the cab will be program power. A lot of people seem to think that 100 watts of program power into a 100 watt cab spells immediate danger. 

Not true.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Thanks Marty...


----------



## CRobbins

Could I run two 25 watt greenback speakers in my 50 watt JCM800 combo without blowing them at moderate levels?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You should be fine. As I said, program power is much different from continuous power. This would be no different than the example I used with the 100 watt cab and 100 watt amp. 

I would stay below 5-6 on your master and you should be fine.


----------



## CRobbins

MartyStrat54 said:


> You should be fine. As I said, program power is much different from continuous power. This would be no different than the example I used with the 100 watt cab and 100 watt amp.
> 
> I would stay below 5-6 on your master and you should be fine.


 
Right on thanks. I haven't been able go over 2 or 3 on the master yet here in my studio, and that's with drums, and bass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are needing an opinion on speakers you are looking at, let me know.


----------



## Reginald

MajorNut1967 said:


> MartyStrat54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey look Marty's power tubes have Condoms!
Click to expand...

lOlOOOlOOOLLOLOlloLLo Really!


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are actually "cock rings."


----------



## mickeydg5

Do they work similar to ankle weights?


----------



## Reginald

sure. over time those valves will get much taller


----------



## MartyStrat54

And be rated at 50 watts each.


----------



## mickeydg5

Magic rings!


----------



## okbassplayerguy

MartyStrat54 said:


> Also ED, if you use a four ohm load, make sure you disconnect the combo speakers. Okay?


 
I was planning on wiring them in series to get 8 ohms, but even at 8 ohms, I would still have to disconnect the internal speakers, because the external jack requires a 16 ohm load in order to be able to also use the internal speakers.

Still have not done this yet, I am a terrible procrastinator.


----------



## chee16

This thread is awsome! 47 pages and I plan to read them all. Just too damn interesting!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish it was more active. It used to be. I still get a question or two. 

There is some funny stuff in these pages. Enjoy.


----------



## Duffy49

I'm getting a DSL40C and am going to replace the Seventy/80. I have played one of these amps many times at the local retailer.

Suggestions on a great sounding speaker for this amp are appreciated.

Let me know what you think?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Duffy-I responded to your PM.

As stated, I recommend the Eminence Governor or Red, White and Blues for "your" style of playing.


----------



## chee16

Even though I haven't broken in my new speakers yet ( tonespotter and black powder in my tsl602) I have noticed something huge. I used to get my clean tone as close as possible, then I used a tube screamer (vol=2,tone=5, gain=5) to give it just a tiny boost with some color to the tone, which I liked at the time since the clean was just not there. Since I got the new speakers I still use the tube screamer but now it is pretty much just a clean boost (vol=5,tone=2-3,gain=1), my clean channel sounds great now, I was so used to using the tube screamer I hadn't noticed.

Every review of my amp said the speakers were terrible, and when I first posted I was told to change out the speakers, I can't be more glad that I did! Night and day is right.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's my pictures again of the Black Powder and Tonespotter. Killer tones for a wide variety of styles. This is a TSL602.

Glad you like them chee.

To bad they are discontinued. When they're gone, they're really gone.



MartyStrat54 said:


>


----------



## chee16

Awsome, I recognized it before even reading the post! haha! So where did the brace and the metal grid covers go? Did you take them out for the pic? Ease of switching speakers? Sound? Just curious.

OFF TOPIC: should I be considering some of those "c#$K rings" for my tubes LMAO But seriously I have read that you should use them in combos due to the vibration? Are they just rubber or specific polymers? (just point me to the brand, I can google  )

BTW, I don't like the speakers....I love them!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I removed the back panel to install the speakers and took pictures at that time. It is all back together now. 

My TSL122 is missing the top and middle pieces, but I think it runs cooler because of it.


----------



## chee16

Still reading through the thread here and I came up with a question that I hope hasn't been covered.

Comparing open back and closed back cabs, what is the key difference, as in is it sound resonance in the cab chamber? air pressure in the cab chamber? would a full back bounce more sound or is that not the point? probably noob stuff but it made me wonder, so I figured I would ask the experts.

I just hit a post about convertable cabs and wondered about when taking half the back off it would make a difference which half, or if you took pieces from the top and bottom with a strip down the middle....it probably stuck in my mind because my tsl602 has a strip down the middle and I have read post where people called it a half back combo.


----------



## mickeydg5

Good topic question. It may have been covered but it would be good to hear comments.

I tend to think of cabinets as a way of controlling the speakers.
A closed back cabinet generally gives more controlled focus and bottom end.
An open back is more open sounding and in a sense is in the opposite direction of the closed.
Also to consider is that the back of a speaker produces something like 40% of the speaker's total output therefore giving the sound to the rear and openess of the open back. That same energy is harnessed and used all the same with any other type of cabinet, just in different ways.

I like the idea of convertible cabinets for either type of use.


----------



## Micky

The back does play a very important part in the 'total' sound of a speaker system.
Generally closed back speakers will have much more bass, but sometimes it borders on 'muddy' or 'flubby'. This is why some systems that focus on bass response are often 'ported', so that the bass response can be 'tuned' to ones taste or to a specific response.

In a guitar amp, the focus is more on mid-range stuff, so that is why open-back combos do so well. When there isn't a 'lot' of bass to start with, you can then tailor what is left to either project forwards with a closed back system, or spread out more with an open-back or semi-open back system.

I kind of equate it to headphones, an on-the-ear style works like an open-back, where an over-the-ear style works like a closed back. One has more focused (in a particular direction) sound, and the other spreads it out a bit.

The best sound (to me) is a combination of the two. I will generally run my combos thru an additional closed-back system, it tends to add a lot of bass and projects the sound low to the floor, and the combo stacked on top tends to spread the mids and highs all over the place with the semi-open back.

As far as the actual open space amount is concerned I am certain Marty can explain about that, there are a lot of factors to consider when trying to design or choose an open-back design.


----------



## MartyStrat54

We all know that low frequencies are omnidirectional. The 6 string, E tuned guitar goes down to upper low bass. This is in the low 80Hz region. (The consensus is that anything below 100Hz is bass.) At this frequency, you will get a "round" sound out of an open back, but once you get above 150Hz, the signal gets unidirectional. At this point what is coming out of the back needs to reflect off of a surface to add to the overall sound of an open back cab. (A lot like the old Bose 901 speaker.) That is why an open back sounds best set up in a corner. This loads the cabinet like a horn design and really projects the sound of the amp. I've seen guys on stage that use a folding, V shaped hinged panel that they place behind their open back cab.

A speaker is push-pull, so you have sound being produced from the front and back of the speaker. In a sealed speaker cab, the signal off the front of the speaker is still as loud as an open back. A sealed cabinet does not decrease the speakers efficiency. The back signal is trapped in the sealed cab and adds more cabinet resonance and better low end. And as been mentioned, based on the size of the cab, certain guitar speakers can get mushy.

Also, you have to know whether the speaker will work in an open or sealed cabinet, or both. The Thiele/Small parameters will dictate this.

And the ported cabinets usually are tuned to around 70Hz. This will help extend the low end of the speaker and it will stay flat to 80Hz without the normal rapid "waterfall" drop off. What this adds to palm mute power chords is pretty dramatic. I'm really surprised that ported cabinets are not more popular.

Another trick is aperiodic vents. These are special vents that will make the speaker think it is in a bigger cabinet. I have used these in 1960 cabs and I truly believe that it tightens up the bottom end. Of course, this was done using Eminence speakers.

Now those who play baritone, 7-string or drop tune, need to pay more attention to the low end capabilities of the cabinet. I've heard guys on this forum state their drop tune guitar sounds great in a regular cab. Sorry, they don't know what they are missing. If you go from E down to a C or B Flat, now you are talking about mid to low 50Hz signals. Playing one of these guitars in a regular cab like a 1960 will result in a huge drop off in frequency strength at around 80Hz and can be more than 6dB down from the average SPL.



> As far as the actual open space amount is concerned I am certain Marty can explain about that, there are a lot of factors to consider when trying to design or choose an open-back design.



Once an opening gets to a certain size, the cabinet becomes an infinite baffle. On Marshall combo's the back is three piece. The top and bottom panel are perforated metal. This provides a large opening and the cabinet is infinite baffle. Note that the tone of the speaker is enhanced by the baffle board. Good plywood or MDF is used so that the baffle does not color the speaker tone.

Now some people like cabinets made out of pine or other solid woods. This adds coloration to the speaker and this is what the customer wants. I prefer a neutral cabinet so the true tone of the speaker is what I hear.


----------



## chee16

Awsome! Thanks for clearing that up. I'm still a noob when it comes to cabs but that helped a lot.

It's funny I saw some pics a while back , and some more recently of a combo that someone converted into a head + cab that looked great. First thought was "Man that could be cool! I might try that eventually!" Knee jerk reaction I think as the more I think about it the less it makes sense for me. What makes MORE sense is getting a 2x12 to go with my combo....more speakers is always better right?  Kinda sucks that I wouldn't be able to get the tonespotter and black powder for the cab, but whev, could try some others too, experiment a little.

Although it's not in the near future (though some NOS tubes may be  ) I think building the cabinet myself would be a great project. The 2x12 style where the cab is more square and one speaker is higher then the other is interesting.


----------



## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> . . . once you get above 150Hz, the signal gets unidirectional. At this point what is coming out of the back needs to reflect off of a surface to add to the overall sound of an open back cab. That is why an open back sounds best set up in a corner. This loads the cabinet like a horn design and really projects the sound of the amp.
> 
> * * * I've seen guys on stage that use a folding, V shaped hinged panel that they place behind their open back cab. * * * .


 
I have always liked to put an open back speaker near a wall or corner, but I had never heard of the "V shaped panel" that is placed behind the open back cab.

Interestingly, to me, I was watching some YouTubes of Derek Trucks with the Allman Bro's band and the DT/ST band and I noticed they had a bunch of Fender "Super Reverbs" on stage. Then I noticed the "V shaped" clear plexiglass or acrylic panels directly behind the Super Reverbs.

The shows they were playing were in small venues, I guess, by their usual standards; so they were probably using those big combo amps for a lot of sound, even though some of them were mic'd.

I never noticed guitar players using that method before. And I'm sure that Derek Trucks and whatever crew he is rocking with, know a vast amount about methods of handling lots of different types of amps.

Using a V shaped panel makes so much sense and is so practical that I'm sure a lot of guitar players use this technique, even though I haven't heard of it or seen it until tonight.

Great info from the people on this thread. A lot of people know things that most people don't, and on this forum some people are sharing some of the stuff that they know that they learned during their experiences in life. I can appreciate that kind of positive attitude that helps people learn things that they never knew about. Thanks man.


----------



## mickeydg5

The V structure is a cool idea for open back cabinets. Very simple to implement but more to carry around.
The V structure or panel creates a makeshift folded horn. The horn reflects the sound energy given at the rear of the speaker and directs it forward. The direction of the sound waves can be somewhat contolled by biuld of the horn and its angles.
That is part of what I mentioned about different cabinets harnessing energy in various ways.


----------



## AudioWonderland

Everyone always tells me that an open back cab "sounds bigger". I have never experienced that, It always just sounds thin to me unless the amp, speakers etc are all designed and tuned for it. A twin for example does not sound thin. Swapping out the back panel of my 2x12's for an open back panel however just gets thin in a big hurry


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes that is true. Some speakers are better suited for free air or infinite baffle use. Their characteristics provide for better control at low frequencies under those situations.


----------



## AudioWonderland

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes that is true. Some speakers are better suited for free air or infinite baffle use. Their characteristics provide for better control at low frequencies under those situations.



I really wanted it to be the case too. I ponied up the extra cash to have both an open and closed back panel for the cabs I had built. Not so much....


----------



## mickeydg5

I have both open and closed back cabinets.
By open sounding of the open back cabinet I guess most mean airy with more reflections (reverberation) along with its concentration towards mid/high and a little less low. But it helps to be close to walls or use loose out on that.
You will never get the low end of a good closed back or ported cabinet with an open back cabinet no matter how good the speaker; two different worlds.


----------



## Duffy49

mickeydg5 said:


> I have both open and closed back cabinets.
> By open sounding of the open back cabinet I guess most mean airy with more reflections (reverberation) along with its concentration towards mid/high and a little less low. But it helps to be close to walls or use loose out on that.
> You will never get the low end of a good closed back or ported cabinet with an open back cabinet no matter how good the speaker; two different worlds.


 
Can you, without doing damage, cover the open back panel sections with home made panels to convert an all tube combo into a closed back one. Discretely placing the home made panels inside the back of the semi open back amp panel? Or are their other factors that make this a foolish thing to do, such as the type of speaker or other variables?

If it is possible to successfully do this, would it be reasonable to expect to get the benefits of a closed back combo, such as a deeper bass?


----------



## mickeydg5

Duffy49 said:


> Can you, without doing damage, cover the open back panel sections with home made panels to convert an all tube combo into a closed back one. Discretely placing the home made panels inside the back of the semi open back amp panel? Or are their other factors that make this a foolish thing to do, such as the type of speaker or other variables?
> 
> If it is possible to successfully do this, would it be reasonable to expect to get the benefits of a closed back combo, such as a deeper bass?


No, that is not a good idea. A combo amplifier needs air circulation for proper venting of heat permeating from the amplifier components.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. Open back combo's get plenty hot. The tubes are upside down and heat rises. This builds up on the chassis and the components get warm as well.

Never put any restriction (panels) on a combo amp.


----------



## solarburn

Anyone who might interested in these speakers...Austin Speaker Works.

[ame=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tVYw94pE4eQ]Austin Speaker Works, demo by Pete Thorn - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## mickeydg5

The demo sounds good. The prices are a bit higher.
It would be cool to hear comparison test with Celestion, WGS and others like Weber.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They sound pretty good. Of course Pete has some good riffs.

I posted a while back about the huge selection of speakers from WEBER. Man they have some great models to choose from. You can even select how much doping you want on the surround and even the type of cone. I really like the clone of the G12-65.(Available in either alnico or ceramic.)

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder what four of these would sound like in a 1960 cab? Check out the resonant frequency and the overall frequency response. They are expensive.

Eminence Patriot 12" Pedal Steel Guitar Speaker | Musician's Friend

In fact, these would slay in an oversized 212 cab. With the high power handling, it would be one loud SOB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Mickey, I took a look at Musician's Friends Eminence inventory and the Black Powder and Tonespotter are no longer listed. I am so glad that I got mine while there were still a few available.


----------



## mickeydg5

And that may be all due to you. Ha, ha, ha. 

The EPS-12C is very interesting. It may do most everything. Waiting for the sound clips to be posted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well chee got a set for his amp. Good for him. "And he likes them."

Yeah those EPS-12C's have a completely different frequency response. In a ways, it is somewhat similar to the Delta Pro 12, but more top end. These would be killer for the 7-string and drop tune crowd.

3-inch, flat wound voice coil (like a JBL). They are part of the Patriot lineup.

Check out the frequency chart.

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah those EPS-12C's have a completely different frequency response. In a ways, it is somewhat similar to the Delta Pro 12, but more top end. These would be killer for the 7-string and drop tune crowd.
> 
> 3-inch, flat wound voice coil (like a JBL). They are part of the Patriot lineup.
> 
> Check out the frequency chart.
> 
> Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


 
Did I not mention Neo speakers catching up with the best of all worlds a while back?

And yes, that is a hell of a low end. The frequency range is impressive and only outdone by a limited group of fairly expensive speakers. I want to see extension to between 6 and 8kHz.

Soon there will be more to choose and from various manufacturers. The prices will drop, hopefully.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah even with a cast aluminum frame, it's a pretty light speaker. A hell of a lot lighter than a Delta Pro. The Delta Pro handles more wattage, but hell 250 versus 400? 250 is a lot for a true instrument speaker and the Delta is actually a PA speaker that people use in guitar amps.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeap, 7.1 lbs a good weight for a speaker of those capabilities.

Hell the Red Fang weighs 8.8 lbs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And the Red Fang is alnico.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought I would wipe the dust off of this thread.

Always glad to answer any speaker questions.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought I would wipe the dust off of this thread.
> 
> Always glad to answer any speaker questions.



I will be glad to assist.

Looking for something that will sound good with both a bright old Plexi and a modern Legacy 3. My trusty Tonespotter is not doing to bad. Thinking Governor, Wizard or Maybe something like a Celestion CLassic Lead 80


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well when you say bright amp, are you wanting to tame it?

If so the Governor has quite a bit of high end and the Wizard has a whole lot of top end.

Do you need a 16 ohm speaker?

The Eminence Red, White and Blues will tame the high end, but it is only available in 8 ohm.

The Cannabis Rex is a really super speaker with warm top end. It is available in 8 or 16 ohm. I've recommended it many times and everyone was pleased with it.

The Celestion Lead 80 is warmer on the top end, with stronger lows and mids.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well when you say bright amp, are you wanting to tame it?
> 
> If so the Governor has quite a bit of high end and the Wizard has a whole lot of top end.
> 
> Do you need a 16 ohm speaker?
> 
> The Eminence Red, White and Blues will tame the high end, but it is only available in 8 ohm.
> 
> The Cannabis Rex is a really super speaker with warm top end. It is available in 8 or 16 ohm. I've recommended it many times and everyone was pleased with it.
> 
> The Celestion Lead 80 is warmer on the top end, with stronger lows and mids.



Its sort of a loaded question to be sure. I don't really want to tame the highs necessarily. That's what a Marshall sounds like. On the other hand, the Legacy is a "darker" amp and very much voiced for a Vintage 30. SO I have completely opposite sounding amps that I am trying to get working through the ISO I built that is currently loaded with a Tonespotter. My Tweaker is already working well with the TS so thats another reason I am hesitant to change speakers but will if it serves the overall better. I could work with 16ohm and that would match my Hot Plate but the 8ohm also work with my Deluxe which is a nice perk. SO far the ISO cab has been more than sufficient and I have not needed the hotplate.

I want that "british quality" of the red coat series and celestions etc but I also need a fairly neutral speaker to work with everything which is why I thought the CL80 might be a fit. My tech who has an excellent ear for tone has often recommended that speaker for just that purpose.

I am considering my options at this point. I am hoping that minor eq tweaks on the amps combined with different combinations of the 3 mics mounted in the cab will get me there. I just got the Legacy III so there is still much work to do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just accidentally deleted my answer, so now I will have to give a briefer version.

The CL80 is like the higher wattage Celestion's. It rolls off rapidly at 4.2KHz. It is fairly flat between 150Hz and 2KHz. Because of this, the mids sound more pronounced and it has above average bottom end. You may like this speaker.

The Cannabis Rex is flatter than the CL80. It is flat from 100Hz to 1.5KHz. It has a little more top end as it starts rolling off at 4.5KHz. It too has above average bottom end and actually it will have a little more than the CL80.

The Governor has a big 1.5KHz dip and a big 2 through 4KHz peak. It has a lot more top end so this makes the low end less prominent.

The Wizard is the most efficient speaker that Eminence sells. The 16 ohm version is rated at 103.5dB. It's efficiency between 150Hz and 1KHz is over 100db, but it has a big peak right after 1KHz and then a massive dip at 1.5KHz. It has a massive 2 through 5KHz peak with extended top end to 6KHz. I don't think this would be a good choice.

The Legend V1216 is an economical speaker with a frequency response that may work for you.

There are so many speakers out there and most of the bigger manufacturers sell clones. I've found that the clones do not sound exactly the same as what they are trying to copy. 

I do not care for the G12T-75 and the Eminence clone is the Man 'O War and it is a great sounding speaker. It really doesn't sound like the 75.

If you need any assistance about other speakers you might be interested in, give me a shout.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> There are so many speakers out there and most of the bigger manufacturers sell clones. I've found that the clones do not sound exactly the same as what they are trying to copy.


 
I find the same, not first hand, but just listening to various comparison clips.


----------



## Jae

Sorry to hijack the thread with my problems. Don't know if this was off topic but since it says everything and anything about speakers.

I recently took my vintage '77 Marshall 4X12 to my amp tech since I was trying to figure out why it was rattling even after I tightened every bolt and screw inside and outside the cabinet. As well as checked the baffle as I've heard you have to make it flush against the back board.

So i take it to him and he was desoldering the terminals of the vintage blackbacks G25's that came stock with the cab. And the solder iron touches the red plastic thing (sorry for my lack of vocab on these things) right where the terminals connect. It was there for awhile as I wanted to tell him but didn't.
Anyhow he totally melted the plastic. He just took the speaker out and now he's servicing the speaker since he found a dust cap was a bit loose.
I asked him about it and he non-chalantly says it's ok.


My question is.. is the melting of the plastic thing in any way detrimental to the speaker? It's been bugging me like crazy since it's a vintage speaker and with all the speakers it sounded really good!

Worried sick about this..... Anyone know anything about this??

Haven't connected it yet as he's fixing the dust cap now. But until I get it back I'm worried. 

I've heard you have to be very careful with the terminals!

Any input would be much appreciated!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you talking about the square insulation that is mounted on the speaker where the speaker wires are soldered in?

I don't know what you mean by "red plastic thing."


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you talking about the square insulation that is mounted on the speaker where the speaker wires are soldered in?
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "red plastic thing."




Hello Marty.
Yes I believe that's what it is. It looks like an insulation covering for the wire where the terminals are. I wish I had a pic of it to show but it's in the repair shop. At the back where the wires solder in at the terminal there is usually a black and red plastic pretty much right near or where the terminals are.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you talking about the square insulation that is mounted on the speaker where the speaker wires are soldered in?
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "red plastic thing."



Sorry. This was the best I can do to try and show you guys.

At the top you can see the two plastics (black and red). That was pretty much what got melted as the guy was trying to desolder the wire.


----------



## Micky

Not to worry, it is just a plastic insulator.
As long as the wire is OK and still insulated you are fine.


----------



## mickeydg5

edited - I see we have pictures.


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## Jae

Micky said:


> Not to worry, it is just a plastic insulator.
> As long as the wire is OK and still insulated you are fine.




Ok Thanks! That'a a relief..


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would have answered you Jae, but I was on hold with my cell phone provider and I had to take care of that BS.

Thanks, Mickey.


----------



## mickeydg5

No, that was thanks to Micky.
:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky, Mickey, Micki, Mikki, Mickay, Mickae...whoever you are, thanks.


----------



## Micky

Radio club I used to belong to had 9 guys named Dave...


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just accidentally deleted my answer, so now I will have to give a briefer version.
> 
> The CL80 is like the higher wattage Celestion's. It rolls off rapidly at 4.2KHz. It is fairly flat between 150Hz and 2KHz. Because of this, the mids sound more pronounced and it has above average bottom end. You may like this speaker.
> 
> The Cannabis Rex is flatter than the CL80. It is flat from 100Hz to 1.5KHz. It has a little more top end as it starts rolling off at 4.5KHz. It too has above average bottom end and actually it will have a little more than the CL80.
> 
> The Governor has a big 1.5KHz dip and a big 2 through 4KHz peak. It has a lot more top end so this makes the low end less prominent.
> 
> The Wizard is the most efficient speaker that Eminence sells. The 16 ohm version is rated at 103.5dB. It's efficiency between 150Hz and 1KHz is over 100db, but it has a big peak right after 1KHz and then a massive dip at 1.5KHz. It has a massive 2 through 5KHz peak with extended top end to 6KHz. I don't think this would be a good choice.
> 
> The Legend V1216 is an economical speaker with a frequency response that may work for you.
> 
> There are so many speakers out there and most of the bigger manufacturers sell clones. I've found that the clones do not sound exactly the same as what they are trying to copy.
> 
> I do not care for the G12T-75 and the Eminence clone is the Man 'O War and it is a great sounding speaker. It really doesn't sound like the 75.
> 
> If you need any assistance about other speakers you might be interested in, give me a shout.




Thanks for the info on those speakers..

I really am trying to do a balancing act here. Does a V30 totally screw up the vibe of an old plexi? 


I did some testing last night with the ToneSpotter. After several passes and ultimately some rather severe EQ on the Legacy boosting Treble and Mids up to around nine and bass to around 2 I got a pretty good sound going. Just for comparison I plugged into my 75 JMP (w/6550 glass) and did a pass.

The Marshall did what Marshalls do. Big mid range snarl that is just a thing of beauty. just a single 57 just off center about 3" back. The irony being that the Tonespotter is not the speaker known for that kind of thing.

The Legacy was definitely a little mids lite and still had plenty of bass. Mixing the 57 with an i5 got a better result here. The Legacy is clearly missing those big upper mids of the V30 though. 

At this point I think my options are:
1) Something in the V30 ballpark like a Governor but not as spiky as the V30 which would be a compromise between the TS and a V30. Hopefully a few amp tweaks would make all the amps happy.
2) Use some sort of EQ in the loop of the legacy
3) Find a mic that really emphasizes the frequencies the V30 does to draw them out of the Tonespotter. The 906 I have in there isn't really doing anything I like anyway. Its a great choice for death metal grind / Really high gain stuff. Maybe just another 57 dead center on the cone where the 906 is now might work.
4) Move the mic tree back a little further from the speaker. Started @ 1" back. Currently @ ~3" from the speaker which was an improvement. There may be some proximity effect still going on that might be eliminated by backing them off another inch or two


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that what you play, death metal/high gain?


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is that what you play, death metal/high gain?



No, not even close. But I have heard examples online where it sounded really good in that setting. I have also experimented with those sounds just to learn a bit about how to achieve them. I found the 906 to fit my ear best with the heavier scooped sounds than it does with classic rock, 80's metal etc. I do mix a little of it in underneath the primary mics if I need a little more grunt but I have never been able to get a sound I was comfortable with using it as the primary mic. A lot of guys love it and do great things with the 906 but I am not one of them.

The dirty sound I am trying to achieve is very much along the lines of classic VH, to modern fusion to rock instrumentalists like a Satriani or Vai. I have no where near that kind of talent but those are the sounds I like. I know Vai uses a number of mics including LDC's. That's a possibility I could try as well but it would a TIGHT fit in the ISO box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it almost sounds like you are looking for the right microphone and a speaker selection is secondary.

If you are doing a lot of processing on the signal, I would go with a flatter response speaker like the EV12M or the new Eminence Patriot Steel Guitar speaker. These are both $200+ speakers, but they are high wattage and work well with a processed signal.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/eminence-patriot-12-pedal-steel-guitar-speaker


----------



## ReiGnMaN

Celestion: look to be a 50oz magnet g12h30:

Date code v24kb t1281: whats with the weird date code?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I come up with October 24, 1992, but you are right. That is a screwy date code.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I come up with October 24, 1992, but you are right. That is a screwy date code.



Very odd indeed. All the other speakers in the cab were dated 1972/73


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does the odd duck look like the other three?


----------



## mickeydg5

ReiGnMaN said:


> Celestion: look to be a 50oz magnet g12h30:
> 
> Date code v24kb t1281: whats with the weird date code?


 
Pictures?
What is to say it is not a 1969 year?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Date code v24kb t1281

The date codes from 1992 are written in the form: Day, Month, Year.

For example: 29EJ = 29th May 1999

B = 1992
K= October

I made my assumption since the numbers precede the letters. Prior to 1992, the letters precede the number.

The date codes from 1968 to 1991 are written in the form: Month, Year, Day.

For example: KH7 = 7th October 1975

I don't know what the "V" means.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh yeah, the date code order. True, so 1992 year.

Could the "v" be just remnants of a bad stamp job? I have seen those.


----------



## mickeydg5

hoofa, check these out. Check the date code R26DK.

Maybe the "R" (or the "V") is an inspector or other code.

Set of 4 April 1965 10 Watt Celestion Silver Bulldog Model P44 3 Ohm Speakers | eBay


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## MartyStrat54

That makes sense. Or maybe a lot code.

BTW-No way I would pay that for some old alnico speakers. Two of them look a little ratty. 

Of course the seller states they have great tone. Do you honestly think he hooked them up and tried them? Not!


----------



## george76

the uncle spot celestion date chart is incorrect. it causes a lot of confusion. the 'written in the form' rules it mentions were not always strictly followed by celestion employees, so do not use that rule as the main basis for dating your speakers. also the format for 1968 is plain wrong on the uncle spot chart. 

T1281 is a 55hz G12H, it is usually found in Marshall gear. 

try these links:

Celestion Date Codes & Stamps - Bygone Tones
http://www.bygonetones.com/celestion-1968-to-1972.html
Celestion Speaker Models - Bygone Tones

P44 alnicos are not really a guitar speaker. that is a typical ebay dreamer trying to sell those for four figures. P44 is a very low power alnico, about 10 watts, maybe less. speakers with smooth cones (no ribs) generally do not make good guitar speakers in my experience. great for cleans but sound horrible with any distortion. I think the P44 was a radio speaker or something like that.

expect to pay top prices for certain alnicos (T652, or vox blues) but not P44's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That 10 watt rating made me wonder. I'm assuming they were an early attempt at a full range radio/lofi speaker.

I wouldn't want to use any 10 watt speaker with a guitar amp, unless it was a 1 or 5 watt amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

FANE-We all need to start checking these out. This model has some impressive specs.

Fane International Ltd Loud Speakers

This model replicates the tone of a vintage FANE speaker. Available in cast or pressed steel frame.

Fane International Ltd Loud Speakers

Sure they make an alnico. How about a 100 watt model? Used by some top acts.

Fane International Ltd Loud Speakers


----------



## mickeydg5

Those Celestion P44s are too expensive for me. I just thought it was something to see. Yeap, they are 10 watt speakers but are important in history because they led to the G12s. I had found some clips on youtube and they did sound fairly decent but with what you might expect with a speaker design like that, lots of breakup.

I have heard good things about Fane but no personal experience. They are more expensive than average. The AlNiCo does sound nice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, but FANE is a small company that makes a quality product and has done so for years.

There are no Chinese FANE's. 

And how many alnico's do you see with a 100 watt rating?


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## mickeydg5

Only a few.


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## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, but FANE is a small company that makes a quality product and has done so for years.
> 
> There are no Chinese FANE's.
> 
> And how many alnico's do you see with a 100 watt rating?


 

Do the alnico speakers sound best when played particularly loud? It seems like I read somewhere that they don't sound ideal at low volume, compared to ceramic speakers.

Is there any truth to this?

My lacquered tweed Hot Rod Deluxe has a stock alnico Jensen P12N speaker in it, but the volume knob on those is so sensitive it goes from silent to loud with zero real low volume; so I can't tell what it would sound like turned down. That super sensitive volume knob is really hard to deal with a low volume.


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## MartyStrat54

Alnico's are no different than other speakers. They all have their own characteristics.

Most current production alnico's are rated at or below 50 watts. I think any speaker sounds different when cranked.


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## mickeydg5

AlNiCo are smooth and chimey but do break up.

Does not a Hot Rod Deluxe have DRIVE and MASTER controls ??? Is your amplifier set full out and clean?
I have never used one.


----------



## ORANGECAP

i have a cab with one 8 ohm speaker. i have a jcm 800 head. do i put the ohmage on the back of the amp on 8ohm? .. or for some reason does it need to go on the 4 ohm or 16 ohm? i thank you


----------



## mickeydg5

ORANGECAP said:


> i have a cab with one 8 ohm speaker. i have a jcm 800 head. do i put the ohmage on the back of the amp on 8ohm? .. or for some reason does it need to go on the 4 ohm or 16 ohm? i thank you


With only one speaker/cabinet rated at 8 ohms connected to the tube amplifier's output the impedance selector or jack used would be for 8 ohms.


----------



## Duffy49

Another similar speaker impedance matching question relates to the situation that I have.

I have a DSL40C with a 16 ohm internal speaker. I am going to connect an external cabinet with one 8 ohm speaker in it.

The back panel of the DSL40C has three external speaker jacks; one for a 16 ohm cabinet and two jacks for 8 ohm speaker cabinets.

If I connect my 8 ohm one/twelve to only one of the 8 ohm speaker output jacks, will I have a speaker mismatching?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The two 8 ohm jacks are for running two 16 ohm cabs in parallel, or you move the internal 16 ohm speaker to one of the 8 ohm jacks and hook another 16 ohm cab to the other 8 ohm jack.

You cannot run the 16 ohm internal speaker and an 8 ohm speaker together.


----------



## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> The two 8 ohm jacks are for running two 16 ohm cabs in parallel, or you move the internal 16 ohm speaker to one of the 8 ohm jacks and hook another 16 ohm cab to the other 8 ohm jack.
> 
> You cannot run the 16 ohm internal speaker and an 8 ohm speaker together.


 
Thanks. I don't want to have a speaker mismatch with my new DSL40C. I am going to convert my Epi Valve Jr one/twelve cabinet with the Lady Luck 8 ohm Eminence designed speaker, to an Eminence 16 ohm "Swamp Thang" speaker. This way I can use the extension speaker with both of my Marshall amps. I have a good Epi So. Cal. four/twelve cab loaded with Eminence/Lady Luck speakers and the cab is rated at 16 ohms. 

As a note of interest, my brand new DSL40C semi open back combo with the Celestion Seventy/80 sounds better to me, both at low volume and cranked, better than my DSL100H sounds thru my Epi So. Cal. four/twelve 16 ohm cabinet. This could be because the combo is semi open backed though - I'm not sure. Maybe other factors come into play as well.

Another note; all of the voices on the brand new, direct from the Marshall warehouse, 2013 DSL40C sound very useable and great. Clean, clean crunch, Lead 1 and Lead 2 all sound great. Lead 2 sounds super great with some very useable distortion that imparts a very woody tone to the humbucker or single coil guitar, throughout the range of the gain and volume on that voice. All the voices sound great.

I wonder if Marshall went in there and adjusted the voices on this beautiful amp. I can't see the need to clip C19 and the stock speaker even sounds decent, although I'm still considering very seriously installing an Eminence Governor.

I hope this info is of assistance to someone considering getting one of these amps.

I don't play much heavy metal type music. I mainly play self composed music, rock, blues, country rock, and folk rock; but I do like to heavify it frequently.


----------



## 50WPLEXI

I need some suggestions here. I have a Marshall 1961B 2X12 loaded with G1275-M's. On top is my 74 JMP 50 running 6550's. I'm looking for a speaker that will tame the highs a bit. The Celestions are somewhat shrill sounding.

I don't want to clip the bright cap, tried that, didn't like it at all. I use Les Pauls, and nothing else (for now) 

So I need some good suggestions fellas...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I answered your thread. 

Eminence Cannabis Rex. Most guitar speakers have a 5KHz top end. You want a speaker that starts rolling off at around 4KHz. The Rex is good for about 4.5KHz. It is available in 8 ohm only, but in a 212 cab you series two of them for a 16 ohm load with 100 watt rating.

I helped others with your request and this is one of the best speakers to tame high end.

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

Another speaker that is even warmer with a 4KHz top end is the Legend 1258.

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker


----------



## 50WPLEXI

Thanks Marty, just saw they offer them in 16 ohm as well. I might mix one with a WGS Invader. My current favorite speaker..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I was thinking of the Red, White and Blues. It is 8 ohm only. It has a smooth top end, but it is basically a high wattage Jensen clone.


----------



## Robertoa1a

There is a question that runs through my mind every time someone brings up db. An odd question but I have to ask.

Doubling the number of speakers yields a 3db increase. But at some point, if you double enough times you reach 100% efficiency. If you double again you reach 200% efficiency.

If you have an Eminence speaker rated at 103db and you fill two full Marshall stacks with them the spl would be 115db / watt @ 1 meter. "200% efficiency".

Is there a limit?


----------



## GIBSON67

I don't think that doubling the speakers will yield a +3db increase...that's doubling the watts and that will increase the sound pressure levels by +3db.

Doubling your speakers will yield more efficiency from the speakers because they are seeing half the watts, thus less distortion. But it will not increase the volume., or sound pressure level.

Marty will know better, but that's the way I see it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have an old early 70's Bible on PA's and it does state that if you have a 97dB speaker and you add another identical speaker you now have 100dB. You then have to add two more speakers to get 103dB and four more to get 106db.



> If you have an Eminence speaker rated at 103db and you fill two full Marshall stacks with them the spl would be 115db / watt @ 1 meter.



The above quote is wrong. 

1 @ 103dB 
2 @ 106dB
4 @ 109dB
8 @ 112db

Now there are some later views on this that do not promote the same SPL increases, but one thing is for sure, multiple speakers do increase efficiency.

Also, you can never achieve 100 percent/200 percent efficiency with an electro-mechanical device. The Laws of Physics are in play here. Any time you have a heat loss (such as with the voice coil) you will experience a loss in efficiency. The suspension parts of a speaker and weight of the moving mass takes away from the efficiency as well.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have a speaker/cabinet book as well which states similar. But it only goes as far as comparing one speaker to doubling the same speaker. The description is as this; if the speaker is doubled the amplifier power is halved (-3dB) to each but the acoustic power is quadrupled (+6dB) with both for a total of +3dB.

I have messed with this some and discovered a couple of things by my ear. There seems to be a diminishing return as you keep doubling speaker quantity. I found by the time you reach eight speakers that the volume evens out or is similar compared to one speaker but the sound of the extra speakers is more dimensional/thicker due to the vast increase of surface area. Also noticed was that the frequencies kind of even out as well due to the fact that the dispersion of power through multiple speakers drops watts to each speaker which in turn reduces higher frequency responses. Speakers are more efficient at higher frequencies which will be more pronounced exponentially as wattage doubles, quadruples, etc. That is why you always turn your treble down or bass up as you increase volume on a home stereo or especially a car stereo.


Anyone else experiment with this?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a copy of a page out of Bob Heil's "Practical Guide For Concert Sounds."

The doubling applies to speakers and speaker systems.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I've found that a 212 cab loaded with two, 102.5dB speakers will out perform a 412 cab with 97dB speakers. 



> Speakers are more efficient at higher frequencies which will be more pronounced exponentially as wattage doubles, quadruples, etc.



Cranking a "high efficiency" 212 cab has a more appealing "bite" to it versus a "standard" 412 cab being played at the same volume level. Another example was when I was jamming with my old band in Phoenix and I had a DSL401. The other guitarist had a Traynor and 412 cab on one side and I had the 401 with a high efficiency Red Fang. I had that amp cranked full blast and it was just loud enough to keep up with the volume level the other guitarist was playing at. (Of course he could have turned up his rig and drowned me out, but he was playing at his normal volume level.) Point is, the 401 sounded really good full blast. I calculated that the SPL level was around 118dB with my little rig. Vince, the other guitarist was using Eminence square backs that were around 98dB. My rig with one 12 inch speaker was 103dB (with one watt) and his 412 rig was around 104dB with one watt. So if he was using 30-40 watts of power out of his head, my amp was right on par with his.

And back to what I was saying to Robertoa. Modern day speakers are around 20-28 percent efficient. If someone could produce a 100 percent efficient speaker, we could all use 1/2 watt amps to do a coliseum show!  

That's why I stress the fact that with the right speaker efficiency, 30-50 watts is more than enough for most gigs without going through the PA. In a smaller venue, the only advantage of running through the PA is better sound dispersion. Of course, I dealt with this by putting a 212 cab on each side of the stage.


----------



## Robertoa1a

The question was more about theory. Not trying to have a concert with one watt, though I like the thought. I'm thinking the doubling effect starts to taper off once the air impedance (like wind resistance) reaches a certain point.

I apologize if I strayed off topic but no one else I can think of can has the answers. 

Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You had some good questions.

The doubling of speakers gets pretty ridiculous after a full stack. Adding another full stack is only going to get you a 3dB increase and then adding two more full stacks is only going to give you another 3dB. When you see a pro show with a huge back line, there are probably only one or two stacks that are real, the rest are fakes. 

In the old days, when PA's were crappy, you did have to use a lot of speaker cabs for a big show, nowadays a 20 watt amp can be mic'd through the monitors and the front of house and that is all you need. Even a 5 watt amp will work. 

The days of multiple cabs are over with. Most of the younger guys I know who play professionally use one 412 cab with either a 50 or a 100 watt tube head. It's all you need.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, that is what I gathered reading up on stuff. But listening in my experience gave different results with tube amplifiers.

There is something else to consider though and very pertinent. Does any of the literature detail testing or equipment specifics or is everything in general, with more current technology having this day and age in mind? See I believe those descriptions and their outcomes are more realistic with pro-gear amplification and sound reinforcement. I do not think it totally applies to vacuum tube amplification.

You know, I almost forgot that I have a sound level meter. Maybe I will do a test and collect levels with 1, 2, 4 and 8 speakers.


----------



## Robertoa1a

When I see all those 4x12 stacks on stage I assume they are for advertising and probably not loaded with any speakers to save weight.

And behind the wall of amps a lower wattage amp with an isolation cabinet to pa.
I miss the look of the big equipment of the old days.

Doing a SPL test would be interesting if you can get all speakers at about 1 meter.
I don't think you would need a watt meter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! You have 8 identical speakers? I don't think I have ever owned 8 of the same kind.

I do own a pretty nice SPL meter, but I don't know how accurate it would be once you got beyond one speaker. I mean how do you mic 8 speakers at one meter? I think that page on PA cabs I posted was more realistic. The SPL was measured at 8 feet. Then there is a math equation that you can use to determine what the SPL is at one meter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a program to determine dB change. For instance, I put in 3 meters for the initial distance and 1 meter for the target distance and this yielded an 9.5dB increase. 

So if you were to test the speakers at 3 meters, you would add 9.5 dB to your figure to get the 1 meter SPL.

Sound Pressure Level (SPL) to Decibels Distance (dB) Noise Calculator

Decible Distance (dB) = 20 × log(d1 ÷ d2)


----------



## Robertoa1a

I kind of get it (efficiency doubling in terms of SPL with doubling drivers).

Speakers are inherently inefficient due to the fact that they are pushing against thin air (air impedance). It is like trying to swim in air. You don't get far. You can swim in water because you have something to push against and your energy goes to more use even though the water is free moving (more mechanical impedance).

So while a single speaker is a point source of sound forcing air in every direction (dispersion path), It is more efficient when it has a buddy. The air starts to get thicker and something to impede against. like using a parachute. Grabbing more air to impede against.

But you can't get 100% efficiency ie 112db from one watt at one meter.

one reason I am concerned is that I am considering a smaller class a tube amp but I dig the 4x12 sound.

I also am a hobby designer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think the most efficient speaker ever made was a JBL D130 (also an E and K model). It was rated at 105dB with one watt and is a popular guitar and steel pedal speaker. This is a 15-inch speaker.

The most efficient 12-inch speaker that I am aware of is the 16 ohm Eminence Wizard. It is rated at 103.5dB.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have a D130F, awesome speaker, 30-17000 at about 105dB. That is range baby!
I read that in a specifications somewhere but now cannot find it.


----------



## mickeydg5

It would not be a scientific standard test. The results would be of speakers basically equidistant from the meter giving basic room levels readings at about 3 meters using the same amplifier set at the same volume. It will indicate any variances in dB as speakers are added.

I have 8 100dB speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I built a custom 215 cab for Chuck Hall in Phoenix. One of the better known blues players in Arizona. When I built the cab, he was doing a lot of SRV covers. (One of SRV's rigs was a Vibrolux going into D130's.) He used this rig for about 2 years and then got an endorsement deal and I bought the cab off of him. I took the speakers and made two, 15-inch, two way floor monitors (for the top end I used a JBL Bullet). Those were the best monitors I ever had. Wow! They cut through and the monitor amp wasn't even running hard.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok, sound level results from single(s) to multi speaker.

I have to say that the results are quite like I remembered and mentioned previously.


A 50 watt tube amplifier with gain and volume a half point.
All results recorded from a complete Amaj chord.
All speakers are 100dB SPL Celestions, four V30 and four G12H(55), paired of each type for 2, 4 and 8 speaker setups.
Meter approximately 3 meters from all speakers, on center of room, speakers slightly angle off axis - not directly at meter. (it was loud enough)

1 speaker V30, avg = 99dB, max = 103dB
1 speaker G12, avg = 98dB, max = 102dB
2 speakers 1/1, avg = 100dB, max = 104dB
4 speakers 2/2, avg = 101dB, max = 105dB
8 speakers 4/4, avg = 98dB, max = 103dB


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have an old early 70's Bible on PA's and it does state that if you have a 97dB speaker and you add another identical speaker you now have 100dB. You then have to add two more speakers to get 103dB and four more to get 106db.
> 
> 
> 
> The above quote is wrong.
> 
> 1 @ 103dB
> 2 @ 106dB
> 4 @ 109dB
> 8 @ 112db
> 
> Now there are some later views on this that do not promote the same SPL increases, but one thing is for sure, multiple speakers do increase efficiency.
> 
> Also, you can never achieve 100 percent/200 percent efficiency with an electro-mechanical device. The Laws of Physics are in play here. Any time you have a heat loss (such as with the voice coil) you will experience a loss in efficiency. The suspension parts of a speaker and weight of the moving mass takes away from the efficiency as well.



Wouldn't that only be true only if each speaker had its own amplifier driving it? Otherwise the power driving each speak would be halved every time you doubled the number of speakers.


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a copy of a page out of Bob Heil's "Practical Guide For Concert Sounds."
> 
> The doubling applies to speakers and speaker systems.



That diagram shows multiplying the amplification as well as speakers right?


----------



## mickeydg5

AudioWonderland said:


> Wouldn't that only be true only if each speaker had its own amplifier driving it? Otherwise the power driving each speak would be halved every time you doubled the number of speakers.


 


AudioWonderland said:


> That diagram shows multiplying the amplification as well as speakers right?


 
See that is what I was getting at in post #1495.
I think the discerning difference is that most or all literature is concerned with pro type solid state amplifiers which as we know increases output wattage as impedance is reduced. But I have yet to see details and specifics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

AudioWonderland said:


> That diagram shows multiplying the amplification as well as speakers right?



No it doesn't. Those are two separate ways to get a 3dB increase. Doubling your power gives you a 3dB increase and doubling your speakers or speaker system (PA cabs) will give you a 3dB increase.

As I've said, I seen this info in numerous places. Some people disagree with it. I've brought it up here on the forum before and a solid answer was never given.

If anyone has any further info, please post it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> ...pro type solid state amplifiers which as we know increases output wattage as impedance is reduced. But I have yet to see details and specifics.



This is a good point, but the info I posted does not take this into consideration and it is not mentioned. I think the info I posted was saying that "regardless of the power available, you will get a 3dB increase by doubling your speakers or speaker systems."


----------



## AudioWonderland

MartyStrat54 said:


> No it doesn't.



It sure looks like additional amp heads sitting on top of those additional cabs....Juss sayin'....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are old Heil PA cabs. The units on top are super tweeters.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, that is what I figured was in the diagram examples.
HF horns, MF horn and LF horn loaded woofers in each column system.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, changing the topic. MoJo has asked me to do a review on the Celestion G12-60 speakers.

These are a newer Celestion offering. They look good, like Celestions usually do. It is touted as sounding like a well broken in V30. So if you like V30's, you should like these and the $80 price tag is real easy on the wallet. These are 100dB speakers. I'm assuming these are made in China since it says "Celestion International."

Celestion G12-60 Speaker 12" 8 Ohms

I have a 212 closed back cab and I can also use one of my TSL combos to test in open back format.


----------



## mickeydg5

That sounds nice. Are they exclusive to Mojo? I do not see them on the Celestion site. Is there a Frequency/SPL chart on them?
So is this the Celestion equivalent Marshall G12C(Hendrix) version model?

Check out the new Celestion V-Type model. The chart looks like a G12H(55) only better yet they claim it to be a 98dB sensitivity speaker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Are they exclusive to Mojo?



You might be right. I looked for more info on the Celestion website and the G12-60 is not listed. MoJo told me that, "they had a lot to move." I'm almost positive that the Hendrix model is different than the G12-60, especially the retail price. 

I was looking for more info on the G12-60 and saw the "V." Looks interesting.


----------



## Robertoa1a

I was in to the audiophile thing a while back and they used to talk about the doubling as well.

Today I had an itch and plugged my 15w practice amp into The 412 with V30's. The audible volume difference was huge. Like a hand held radio vs. jamming loud with more bass. The 15w amp has an 8" speaker rated 95db (par for that size).

I assume the doubling effect works but thing start to change at 105 db or so.


----------



## mickeydg5

Robertoa1a said:


> I was in to the audiophile thing a while back and they used to talk about the doubling as well.
> 
> Today I had an itch and plugged my 15w practice amp into The 412 with V30's. The audible volume difference was huge. Like a hand held radio vs. jamming loud with more bass. The 15w amp has an 8" speaker rated 95db (par for that size).
> 
> I assume the doubling effect works but thing start to change at 105 db or so.


The closed 4x12 with V30s should be at least twice as loud with much more bass right of the bat.
Most combos are open and comparing a 1x8" open combo to a 4x12 closed back is not even fair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the proven laws of physics state that as long as you double the power or speakers, you will get a 3dB increase, even at 105dB or higher.

Of course I don't see any pro PA company coming out with a 16,000 watt amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am sure that with about 10 watts and a 4x12 loaded with 100dB speakers in an average size room Robert was feeling/hearing over 105dB.

Robert, what amplifier and how were the knobs set?


----------



## hazmat7719

MartyStrat54, I totally agree with you. Most of the pre 1990 JBl and Altec drivers were the most efficient. I also prefer them over most drivers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I liked them very much and worked as a manager in a pro audio store back in the 80's and we sold Altec, EV, Gauss, JBL and other pro brands. JBL by far had the most diverse selection of speakers for any given application. Huge power handling too.

I would still be using Altec/JBL, but if you blew or damaged one they are so damn expensive to fix...and that is if you can even find a factory kit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well today I received the pair of Celestion G12-60's. These are a custom made Celestion for MoJo. I will say this much, the Chinese know how to make a nice speaker. I could not find any manufacturing flaws with these speakers

50 oz magnet
100dB
8 ohm
60 watt rating

I'm busy right now, but I will see if they sound as good as they look. At $80 each retail, these should be good competition to a similar priced Eminence or WGS.


----------



## Robertoa1a

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well today I received the pair of Celestion G12-60's. These are a custom made Celestion for MoJo. I will say this much, the Chinese know how to make a nice speaker. I could not find any manufacturing flaws with these speakers
> 
> 50 oz magnet
> 100dB
> 8 ohm
> 60 watt rating
> 
> I'm busy right now, but I will see if they sound as good as they look. At $80 each retail, these should be good competition to a similar priced Eminence or WGS.


 I am eager to hear what your thoughts are.


----------



## Marshall_Watts87

whats the difference If I bought a 1960B and swapped out the speakers for vintage 30's compared to just buying a BV?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall_Watts87 said:


> whats the difference If I bought a 1960B and swapped out the speakers for vintage 30's compared to just buying a BV?



I think I answered this already for you. There would be no noticeable difference.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*This review has been edited due to information from a Celestion rep regarding where the G12-60's are made.*

Recently I received a pair of Celestion G12-60 speakers from Mojotone to review. (Amp Parts, Cabinets, Guitar, Bass, Pickups, Pedals - Mojotone.com) These speakers are only available from Mojotone. These speakers were custom made for an OEM, but then the deal did not materialize and Mojotone bought all of the speakers.* I originally was under the impression that these speakers were made in China or Taiwan. They are in fact made in the UK. Since obtaining this info from a Celestion rep, all I can say is that the G12-60 represents a huge value since they are priced much lower than other UK Celestion's.*

The specifications of the speaker are:

Power Rating: 60 Watts
Impedance: 8 ohms (Note: Available in 8 ohm only.)
Sensitivity: 100db
Magnet: 50oz
Voice Coil: 1.75 inch
Frequency Range: 70-5000Hz
Price: $80.00 each

The above specifications are the same as a Celestion V30. Not surprisingly, the G12-60 sounds very much like a V30. I do not have any other information on this speaker as far as what the free air resonance is. The V30 is 75Hz and I’m sure the G12-60 is probably close to this or the same.

The first amp I tested them in was a Marshall TSL122. This is a 212 open back combo, 100 watt amp. I wired the speakers in parallel and ran them as a 4 ohm load. I compared these to the Eminence Man ‘O War speakers that I have in this amp. The G12-60’s sound very detailed when played cleanly on the green channel, very good midrange clarity.

When pushed, the G12-60’s have a very similar crunch as the V30’s. The G12-60’s are not as aggressive in the mids as the Man ‘O Wars and the top end is somewhat warmer. The G12-60’s have a tad more low end. Both speakers have a tight sounding bass tone. Palm muting bar chords and broken 5ths are very tight with the G12-60.

In the yellow channel with the gain at around 6, the single note tones lend themselves to the classic Celestion sound. Using a Deluxe Strat with a DiMarzio Air Zone in the bridge, the 60’s did a great job of translating the bite coming from the amp. They track the amp signal very accurately.

I switched over to a Gibson Explorer with a DiMarzio Air Norton in the neck and the Air Zone in the bridge. The Air Norton sounded wonderful in the green channel with the gain pumped up. It was very warm and creamy, a really beautiful rhythm sound. The bridge pickup through the yellow channel was nice and ballsy sounding. Both of these pickups are rated as medium output and they played nicely through the G12-60’s. 


I then installed the G12-60’s in a custom 212 sealed cabinet. This particular cab lets each speaker see about 2.1 cubic feet of air space. I removed the Eminence Swamp Thangs from this cab prior to testing. I used a Marshall JCM 2204 with this cabinet. As in the prior test, the speakers were wired for a 4 ohm load. 

Please note that this amp sounds entirely different from the TSL122. Adding to this is the fact that I am using a sealed cab. This being said, I will say that I definitely prefer these speakers in the sealed cab. The total overall sound is “bigger.” Of course the sound coming from the sealed cab is more focused and the low end is tighter. It also warmed up the top end. Mojotone states that the G12-60 is a little darker than a V30. In the sealed cabinet, I would agree with this, but the difference would be slight. 

In this application, the G12-60’s sounded similar to the Swamp Thang’s. I would give the Swamp Thang’s a slight edge in the bottom end, but it wasn’t as tight as the G12-60’s. Both speakers had detailed mids and a smoother high end. I would say the G12-60’s have a little more usable high end, harmonics sounded very sweet.

Both the Strat and the Explorer sounded very good through this rig.

Overall I will say that if you are looking for a V30 alternative, you can’t go wrong with the G12-60’s. The current V30 is made in China and goes for around $145 each. *The G12-60’s are $80 each and represents a true bargain for what is essentially the same speaker and they are made in the UK.* The only drawback (if you want to call it that) is that the G12-60 is only available in 8 ohms. This really shouldn’t be an issue. If installed in a 412 cab with series-parallel wiring, you would end up with an 8 ohm load. If you wanted to run a full stack, this would be a 4 ohm load and most 50 and 100 watt guitar amps can run these loads.

I would highly recommend the G12-60 as an economical way to achieve the V30 tone. Again, the G12-60's are custom made speakers. They were originally made to be used in an OEM application. They are not listed on the Celestion website. However, they are made in the UK.

Celestion G12-60 Speaker 12" 8 Ohms

Marty


----------



## GIBSON67

Hey Marty, very nice review. Could these be the same as the Hellatone 60L, which is also a bassier/warmer V30?

Are they using the same cone as V30's and what is the T number, inquiring minds want to know?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well MoJo didn't have the specs on these. I don't think these are Hellatone 60L's. All I know is that these were made in a large quantity for a cab manufacturer and the deal fell through and MoJo purchased the entire lot.

The code on the speaker magnet is T5794A and the cone is K 43 8702.

Now here is something I didn't notice before. There is a label on the speaker and in very small print it says, "Made in PRC." This I believe is Taiwan, People's Republic of China.

So I will have to contact MoJo and verify if these are made in Taiwan. Regardless, they are very well made and an economical way to achieve the V30 tone.

If these are made in Taiwan, I will edit my post to clarify that.

Aren't the Hellatone's made in China? If I recall, that's correct.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Please see my revised review, post #1526 regarding where the G12-60's are made.*


----------



## Duffy49

I finally decided on how I want to go about trying out some new speakers and this is what I came up with:

I ordered an Avatar 212 speaker cab to go with my DSL100H and 
DSL40C.

It is the Vintage style with all black tolex on the cab and valance, a black grill, gold piping, and a black Avatar logo. It should look cool with all black and the gold pin striping to accent it.

It has a total ohm rating of 8 ohms, with two 16 ohm Eminence Swamp Thang speakers of a sensitivity rating of 102.0 dB (+/-) each. They have 59 ounce magnets, each.

It will look like this except have gold pin striping and a black Avatar logo.


















Eminence Swamp Thang description and specifications from the Eminence website - http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Swamp_Thang




I should be getting this in about a week. I'll describe how it compares to the sound of the 412 Epiphone So. Cal. cabinet I'm using that has four Eminence/Epiphone "Lady Luck" speakers. My present assessment is that the Epi So. Cal. 4 X 12 cab sounds very good. We will see how it stands up to the Avatar and the Swamp Thangs. It should be interesting. 

It may be of significance to note that the Lady Luck speakers in the Epi So. Cal. 412 have a sensitivity of 99 dB each and the Swamp Thangs have a sensitivity rating of approx. 102.0 dB each. That is a 3 dB increase in sensitivity for the ST's. I'm not sure how much louder, if any, this cab will sound compared to the Epi So. Cal. 412. Anyone have any idea of what I should expect?



__________________


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## MartyStrat54

The Swamp Thangs should blow the Lady Lucks all to hell.

You will freak out over the low end that you will get from them in the Avatar cab.


----------



## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Swamp Thangs should blow the Lady Lucks all to hell.
> 
> You will freak out over the low end that you will get from them in the Avatar cab.


 

Thanks Marty. That added low end might be exactly what I'm looking forward to.

For the last few days I have been playing my Epiphone LP Plus top, solid amber flame, that I installed a Dimarzio nickel covered SuperDistortion pickup in. This guitar sounds totally awesome, compared to my Gibson LP Studio with Burstbucker Pro's, thru my new style DSL100H head and the Epi So. Cal. 412 cab; and the Gibson LP Studio with the BB Pro's is a really nice guitar with a maple "cap", and it sounds really good itself.

We will see how that SuperDistortion pickup sounds with a little help from its friends. Ha, ha. I must admit that it is a "lot" of fun to mess around with half way decent gear.


----------



## Duffy49

*New Avatar two twelve cabinet*

Yesterday I received my new Avatar two twelve speaker cabinet. I got the Vintage style one with black tolex and black valance, with gold piping and a black Avatar logo on the valance. Black grill too. It looks awesome. It has two Eminence Swamp Thang speakers. I will take some pictures.

I use it with my DSL40C and DSL100H. It sounds way better, to my ear, than my Epiphone So. Cal. four twelve cabinet with the Lady Luck speakers.

The sound of the cab is awesome. The bass response is really nice and is the chest pounding type when cranked up a little, which is not cranking it up much because the Swamp Thang speakers are 102.x dB sensitivity rated. Power chords are really nice and full and driven on the clean channel but the high end chime is definitely there. It has a sound that I really like and I can easily get a lot of tones that I like from it, after only owning it for one day. Turned down to household volume it still sounds great, but cranked up a little it really roars. It is a very clear sounding cab but has lots of low end power that is not muddy or distorted and the mid range is not overpowered by the bass. It has a very excellent mid range sound coming thru strong.

The cabinet looks really nice in classic all black with gold piping. The tolex is very nice and is not the cheap flimsy type. It is made of all multi ply Baltic birch, all six sides. The black grill is very substantial and not flimsy.

I got the 8 ohm cabinet so that I can use it with my Fender and Vox amps, as well as the Marshalls. I haven't tried that yet but expect the AC15c1 will be a lot louder and more powerful.

The cabinet, with these speakers, is really sensitive to pick attack and playing dynamics. The clarity of the speakers allows subtle changes in playing technique to come thru strong. Blues leads sound super great and strong.

I had been told that the speaker was very strong with the bass response, but it is crystal clear and the mids and highs are well balanced. I like that strong bass reinforcement, but when you turn up the tone knobs on the guitar all the way it is plenty bright sounding and a strat or tele twangs nicely. The single coils on my Lonestar strat, Texas Specials, really chime and ring like bells. This aspect alone sets this cabinet apart from my other cabinets.

I will take some pictures and get them posted. The total cost, delivered, was 439 dollars, which is a lot less than many MDF type cabinets I have seen advertised. I personally prefer plywood if I can find it, which is getting harder to do all the time.


----------



## Cadblaster

Congrads on the new cab. Hard not to like those Avatars.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## mickeydg5

That is a very nice looking cabinet and great for the $$.


----------



## Riff

Just wanted to post and say I read every page of this thread! 

Also, I have a 2x12 cabinet built by Redstar. It was a small company out of Houston, Texas that's sadly out of business now. Awesome cab with a metal grill and some type of heavy duty coating so there's nothing to tear. It came with a Wizard and a Texas Heat and sounds great! Awesome low end with just the right amount of mids and highs for me. I don't like the mid spike of a V30 and the Wizard and Texas Heat combo is just right for me. 

Speaking of the V30, I had an Orange Tiny Terror with the 1x12 cab that I never could get along with. I finally sold the amp thinking it was the problem when all along it was that V30 I didn't like. I pulled it out and found a good deal on a Celestion G12K 100. Awesome speaker! It has the right dip for me in the 1000hz to 2000hz range. Much more pleasing than the V30 for me. 

Anyway, just wanted to say this is a great thread and learned a lot. 

Anybody need a V30?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks so much for reading this thread. There is some good info to pick up.

I remember Redstar. If I remember correctly I think they may have tried to sell on EBAY. I do recall going to their website.

The G12K 100 is typical of the big magnet Celestion's. They have a smoother mid bass/midrange and a warm top end.

As you probably have found out, I'm partial to Eminence and I also like WGS and Weber.

Nice meeting you, Riff.


----------



## Riff

Thanks Marty. 

I bought the Redstar off of eBay. It must have been towards their end because it was a brand new cab they were selling for half price. I asked if anything was wrong with it and they said no. Bought it right then and it has been great. 

Have you ever paired up a G12K 100 with other speakers? I use that Orange cab with a TSL 601 and want to change out the original speaker in the amp. Anything particular you would go with to pair up with the Celestion?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I need some clarification. Do you still have the Wolverine in the 601? If so, get rid of it. 

The G12K 100 is 16 ohm?

If you like the tone you are getting out of the G12K 100, then you really don't want to mix it with a bright speaker.

Before I go any further, let me know if the G12K 100 is 16 or 8 ohms.


----------



## Riff

Still have the Wolverine in the amp right now. 

The G12K 100 is 16 ohm.

Should I move the G12K 100 to the amp and find a more bassier speaker for the cab? I always put the amp on top of the cab to get the speaker closer to my ear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if it was me, I would put the G12K 100 in the amp and try to get $20 for the Wolverine. I think I got $45 for the pair that was in my 602. Of course the cost to ship them to the buyer was stupid high.

You would probably be better off to find another G12K 100. The sensitivity rating on the K 100 is 99dB SPL @ 1 watt. The speakers I would recommend are 101.5 and hotter.

It sounds like you are happy with the tone of the K 100. You could also maybe find a used 80 watt Celestion. This would work well with the K 100. These speakers new are expensive, so I would shop around for a used one.


----------



## Duffy49

I played one of the new Fender Silverface Deluxe Reverbs and they have a Celestion G12-V70 speaker that sounds very good. I'm not sure if these are a Fender special design speaker but they say Celestion in big letters on the label.

A dude was playing a new version American Standard Strat thru a Budda Boost/OD pedal into the front of the amp on the vibrato channel and that particular rig sounded really good in his hands with plenty of balls and chime. Those pickups are the Fender Fat 50's Custom Shop pickups in that American Standard. As I said the chime was really nice and the slightly overdriven sound was very pleasing to the ear.

That was one lucky dude. He purchased that Silverface DR less than an hour and a half after the amp came out of the box. He was smiling too. He was playing great early Led Zepellin songs, etc., on it. Thru this amp the American Standard with the Fat Fifties pickups sounded, to my ear, noticeably more satisfying than the surf green American Special Strat with the Texas Specials.

I have both the Texas Specials in my Roadhouse strat and a set of Fat Fifties in another strat. I like both of these pickups and probably play the TS pickups more because I have a Lonestar strat as well.

In fact, I'm playing my Roadhouse strat sss with Texas Specials right now thru my DSL40c with the stock Celestion Seventy/80 speaker and I actually like the sound of the amp with the Seventy/80 speaker. It is very clean and clear and can produce a full rocked up blues tone with no problem using the sss Roadhouse on the red channel, lead 1; and I have not done the c19 mod yet.

Of course, the Silverface Deluxe Reverb '68 Custom, new release amp is only 22 watts and the DSL40c is obviously only 40 watts, but those speakers I mentioned sound very good in my opinion. It seems like a lot of these new amps are coming stock with some half way decent speakers, not necessarily needing to be replaced immediately, unless by personal preference.


----------



## Riff

What 80 watt speaker were you suggesting? Shouldn't I be looking for a speaker with a sensitivity of around 99?


----------



## MartyStrat54

In the 70's Celestion came out with a G12-80, so they are out there used. Celestion reintroduced them as the Classic Lead G12-80.

Celestion Classic Lead 80 80W, 12" Guitar Speaker Features:

80W power handling
8/16 ohms impedance
100dB sensitivity
75Hz resonant frequency
75Hz-5kHz frequency response
50 oz. magnet


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I will be on vacation until October 21. Going to Phoenix.*


----------



## Micky

Travel safe my friend...


----------



## sccloser

Marty! I found the speaker thread! 

Ok, to revive this thread, I will ask a question, which I was thinking of doing anyway. What is a good speaker choice for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe? I will be playing blues and classic rock on it. Maybe a little country, but don't tell anybody about that, OK? lol! I want something that is tighter on the bottom than the stock speaker and maybe not as efficient so I can tame the volume on this thing a bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in a Fender I love the Eminence Red, White and Blues. It is available in 8 ohm only. Problem is it's a highly efficient speaker. I think it is a 101dB speaker.


----------



## Hillcountry

I put a Legend GB128 in a deluxe once and it sounded great until I killed the speaker…lesson learned. I was thinking Swamp Thang - but that will be very very loud. I bet a Jensen Mod, or Regular Jensen C12 would tame the volume a bit, but I am not much of a fan of those speakers. 

Red White and Blues is a good choice though…

I'm not helping much here…need more coffee.


----------



## kr-100

I recently picked up a pair of g12-60's that marty reviewed from mojo, had them on sale for $60 shipped. Described as a warmer / darker v30 is pretty accurate, they fall between a 60l and a reg v30. Sounded great right out of the box....as good as my 60l's but with less bass.

Loaded them in an avatar trad 2x12 (closed back) wired to 4 ohm. Les Paul plugged into a sfvr w/barber dd. I bought these to use with this amp for some heavier stuff and if they didn't work out I would just use them with my 2204. Have to say the vibrolux has some ball shaking punch now. Very tight bass and smooth clear top end w/ classic v30 mids , not fatiguing at all at high volume. Couldn't get the bass to flub out no matter how hard I hammered the low strings.

The stock fender alnico 10's had better cleans not supriseing. The celestions easily crushed them when overdriven....

The same could be said for the stock 2204 w/6550's. The g12-60's took everything the marshall could throw at it and spit out killer tone. Not too bright or dark and never turned to mush. All playing was done in standard tuning.

As Marty stated I could find no flaws in workmanship, as to where they are made(UK vs China) mine had the PRC sticker. Maybe these were a pre production run made in the UK with final production going to be made in china. Dosen't really matter they sound great.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad you liked them. My contact at Mojo stated they were UK made, but I honestly think they are made in China. Everything I have ever bought that said "PRC" (People's Republic of China) was in fact made in China. I tend to think that if they were in fact made in the UK, there would be a label or stamp supporting this.

They are a great speaker for the money.


----------



## Mosher Zone

There is a 1935B cab at the rehearsal studio my band goes to, it's a 100w cab & is pretty beat with no grill cloth or casters. I was thinking to make an offer on it cause it's just sitting there but I'm not sure what it's worth or it's year. I did a little search on here & saw some crazy ass prices also there is no mention of that model in my Marshall book, is it rare?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 1935B is a 412 bass cabinet with G12M 25 watt, 16 ohm speakers (T1511). These speakers have the 55Hz cones. These cabs were made in the 70's. 

Even though it is old and beat up, if it has the original G12M's in good working condition, the speakers by themselves are worth a lot of money.

Backline Musician Services - Information

Vintage Marshall 1935B 4X12 Speaker Cab 2Tone Bsktweave - Guitar museum

If the owner knows what he has, expect him to ask at least $800 to a $1000 for it since it is a beater cabinet.


----------



## Mosher Zone

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 1935B is a 412 bass cabinet with G12M 25 watt, 16 ohm speakers (T1511). These speakers have the 55Hz cones. These cabs were made in the 70's.
> 
> Even though it is old and beat up, if it has the original G12M's in good working condition, the speakers by themselves are worth a lot of money.
> 
> Backline Musician Services - Information
> 
> Vintage Marshall 1935B 4X12 Speaker Cab 2Tone Bsktweave - Guitar museum
> 
> If the owner knows what he has, expect him to ask at least $800 to a $1000 for it since it is a beater cabinet.



Wow, cheers bud, they don't actually own the cab it's a buddy of theirs & for that reason I wouldn't rip them off but thanks for the info, i'll pass it on.


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## lordquilton

Put this in another thread, probably belongs here, so bump!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_YAuW6L4XI]30 Guitar Speakers in 10 Minutes! Ultimate Speaker Shoot-Out : Eminence Winter NAMM 2014 - YouTube[/ame]


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## Biggin900s

Excellent thread thanks so much for the info, I'm in the process of redoing a Jcm 900 cab and searcing for speaks I had an 800 combo with the celestion g75s and it was alright but I'm thinking greenbacks, 25 or creambacks that's with a 50 watt 900 head for hard rock anybody got any suggestions? I have an old mid 60's soundcity 4x12 I'm not sure of the brand of speakers, there original square magnet but when I hit an open G with my 76 Firebird with transplanted Burstbuckers they absolutely ring beautifully. That's with the 900 no pedals or boxes. Clear articulate no crappy flutter or breakup. Just pure nasty crunchy sustain. Any suggestions. Thanks again


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## MartyStrat54

The Sound City cab is probably loaded with Eminence square backs. If you can look at the speaker, if it has a number beginning with 67 (usually in green ink), it is an Eminence?

I don't know which Creamback you are talking about.

Are you considering buying new Celestion speakers?


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## mat_79

Hi, I have a DSL40C. I have a Marshall chassis that accommodates a 10" speaker. I wanted to turn it into a small ext. cabinet. I spoke to Celestion about getting the right speaker and they suggested the G10 Vintage (16ohm, 60w). I'm going to be playing/recording at home so the volume will be pretty low. With that in mind...is this speaker a bit OTT being 60w?


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## Micky

Should work fine.


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## Chas_W

Late to the party here as always. Still not caught up on the massive tube thread.

I will report back what I have decided on prior to even discovering this thread is Celestion V30 and G12H30 combo with Randall RM20. So far the V30 by itself is quite good. I couldn't justify the UK Made prices so I am going with the finest China. The V30 is from 2005 and the G12 2004. I would guess at this point they are both broken in however there is no way to know.

Speaker rolling has far more impact on sound and the wallet than tube rolling.


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## mickeydg5

You should try Marshall proprietary G12V Vintage and G12H Heritage combo. Both are 70 watt rated. Buy them up second hand. Why people sell them is beyond me. Sweet!


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## MartyStrat54

I'm guilty of selling them. I believe that's the pair that came with my TSL122? I didn't like them so I went with a pair of Eminence Man O War's. 

When I went to sell those speakers on EBAY, I hardly got anything for them.


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## mickeydg5

Yes they were paired up with the TSL stuff.
The Man O War is also a great efficient speaker, especially the 8 ohm.

When you stick your neck out with recommendations chances are taken. Ha, ha. It is always a preference. 
I really like the Vintage/Heritage combination.

What did you not like about them in the TSL122?

Most ceramics go fairly cheap second hand, like half price.


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## Chas_W

That G12V Vintage looks like a V30 with Marshall logo. I forgot to mention in the last post and I guess it pertains to speaker choices.... I do not play clean.


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## mickeydg5

Chas_W said:


> That G12V Vintage looks like a V30 with Marshall logo. I forgot to mention in the last post and I guess it pertains to speaker choices.... I do not play clean.


 It is not the same speaker. They are what everyone calls clone. Celestion makes a few proprietary models of the Vintage style. Marshall's proprietary model was the original and is the best of them.

*Definition of PROPRIETARY*

*: one that possesses, owns, or holds exclusive right to something; specifically : proprietor

*


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## Chas_W

I can report back that the Celestion V30 and G12H30 combo with Randall RM20 is a great working combination for me.


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## lordquilton

What is up with Eminence? I really want to try a GB 128, but they only seem to offer them in 8 ohm. Is it possible to get a 16 ohm version? What would be the closest thing (16 ohms) they have to a GB 128?

Is there a reason why they only have 8 ohm versions of some of their speakers?


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## Micky

I don't think Eminence ever offered it in 16-ohm.
Marty would know...


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## MartyStrat54

Nope, they have never been offered in 16 ohm.

Why are some speakers only offered in 8 ohm? It's because 65 percent of today's players are using 112 or 212 cabs. Two 8 ohms in series in a 212 cab is 16 ohms. Most combos with a single 12 run at 8 ohms.

Based on what you want (in the GB128), I would recommend the new CV-7516. It's more money, but it is one great sounding speaker. There is a demo of it on the Eminence home page and also another member has started a thread on the CV-75.


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## mickeydg5

The GB128 seems like a great speaker especially for the price.

Eminence offers standard runs in certain impedance but also notes that you may consult them for different impedances. It is possible that they did make a 16 ohm run for the GB128 and if so they can tell you for who and maybe where to find them. I do not know if they hold the same price and specifications may change some.

My point is that someone can always call and ask if interested.


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## MartyStrat54

Talk to this guy if you want that sort of info.

Anthony.Lucas@eminence.com


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## lordquilton

Thanks Marty and Mickey. Someone over on the gearpage said they got a 16 ohm GB 128 from someone in their members emporium section. 

When I got a replacement speaker (Creamback 65) for the DSL 40C I got the 16 ohm version. Guess I zigged when I should have zagged. If there is such an animal (GB128 16ohm), it's more than likely only to be found in the US. It would probably be more sensible to sell the Creamback and get an 8 ohm version to pair with a GB 128.

I checked out the CV 75 a few weeks ago (youtube). It sounded like a very good speaker, it just didn't grab me by the ear like the GB 128 has.


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## bman

Anybody here know how a Vintage30 will do in a DSL40combo? Im trying to decide between this and a Greenback. My styles are VH, Alice and Chains, Godsmack, George Lynch....etc...ya know the killer rock/metal tone of 3 decades.


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## MartyStrat54

In an open back combo I would go with the V30. 

Have you ever considered other brands of speakers?


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## bman

MartyStrat54 said:


> In an open back combo I would go with the V30.
> 
> Have you ever considered other brands of speakers?


Yes I have considered Jenson but thought Celestion was the top of the class


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## MartyStrat54

I like Eminence myself.


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## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like Eminence myself.



I dig my Eminence "Swamp Thangs" in my new two twelve cab. I use them with my DSL100H mostly and they sound way better than my other 4/12 cab. I don't play heavy metal much, but these are some very good sounding speakers. There's probably an Eminence that you would find great for your style playing. It's totally worth checking into. Here in the USA they are very affordable.


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## MartyStrat54

Well I forgot to announce something of interest.

EMINENCE is now selling direct to the public with free shipping. Combine that with their reasonable prices it is a win-win situation.

I totally agree about being able to find an Eminence speaker to suit your tonal requirements. Trying out speakers can be expensive. I spent several thousand dollars trying out various Eminence speakers. 

I will say that my favorite hard rock speaker is the Man O War. I have them in a TSL122 combo. Even in a combo they have really tight (like a sealed cab) bottom end. Palm mutes are brutal.

My latest Eminence acquisitions are the Redcoat CV-75 and Legend 1275 which came out in March of this year. I have them in over sized Avatar 212 cabs. I prefer the CV-75's.

I am going to experiment with adding some polyfill to the inside of my cab. The Avatars are around 4.2 cubic feet which may be affecting the tightness of the bottom end.


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## mickeydg5

Good to hear.
I like Legends but find them a little subdued compared to other speakers. You can hear it in the sample clips when comparing the 1275 to the CV75 and MOW.


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## MartyStrat54

Well the funny thing about Eminence (and other speaker manufacturers) is that their clones don't really sound like like the originals.

I almost didn't try the Man O Wars because they are Celestion G12-75 clones and I don't like G12-75's. Put them in a sealed 212 cab with about 3.6CF total internal volume and they sounded great. I put them into my TSL122 and I was pleasantly surprised how good and tight the bottom end is. The MOW does not remind me of a G12-75 at all.

Another speaker that I liked is the discontinued Tonespotter (G12-65 clone). If you read my past comments deep in this thread, I experimented with 12 pairs of Eminence speakers. "My" personal favorite tone was the Tonespotter paired with a Black Powder (another discontinued speaker). 

I turn 60 in October. I think I have finally found my favorite speakers, tubes, pickups and guitars. I would have loved to have done this twenty years ago. 

OFF TOPIC:

As far as guitars and pickups, I am now wondering what a DiMarzio 36th Anniversary Bridge in an HSS Strat would sound like with an Area 58 in the middle and an Injector Neck in the neck. I have a Strat with the bridge and neck Injectors with an Area 58, but I think the 36th Anniversary would be more to my liking versus the Injector Bridge. I just feel that a humbucker in the bridge of a Strat is the only way to go. IMO an HSS Strat is the most versatile guitar out there.


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## mickeydg5

Sounds like the plate is always full and there will always be more on the way.
I think HSS is most versatile too and the H can be switched to S's if so chosen.


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## MartyStrat54

Well actually I was going to do it to the guitar I bought off of 66Galaxie. It has the Injector/Area 58 set. I'm just not that keen on the Injector Bridge pickup. I was going to convert it, but I contacted Galaxie and he told me that the Warmoth body has an SSS route and not the "swimming pool."

If I was 20 years younger I would be motivated to take my 2002 Deluxe HSS and convert it over using the 36th Anny, Area 58 and Injector Neck. I really think that would be fantastic.

(Of course I stopped using higher output pickups years ago. This setup would be great for all the stuff I like.)


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## minerman

Hey guys,
I'm sure the answer to my questions are here in this thread, but honestly I didn't feel like going through 50+ pages trying to find it, & the search didn't do anything for me...so...

I'm looking to buy a couple (maybe more) different speakers for my ISO cab, & possibly even a 2x12 or another 4x12...The speakers I currently have are:
Greenback
V30
T75 (I have 5 of these...one for my ISO cab & the 4x12 is loaded with 'em)

So, my question(s) are:

Is the Celestion EVH speaker just a re-labeled Greenback??? I know it says 20w & the GB is 25, but are they basically the same???


Same thing with the 65w & 75w Creambacks...are they just a higher powered Greenback????

I've heard from online friends that the current production Celestion G1265's aren't up to par with the older ones, & I probably should go with WGS's version of it, any truth to this????

Thanks as always, again, I'm looking for different tonal options...

Oh yeah, the amp I'll be using is a DSL100H...for now...LOL...


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## MartyStrat54

There are a lot of speaker threads right now and I hate to have to keep typing the same responses.

First off, clones do not sound exactly like the original speakers. I found this to be true with Eminence and WGS. 

I'm not sure about the G12-65 comment. The Chinese are putting the 65's together using the same UK specifications. 

There's a G12M and a G12M Greenback. The G12M is 20 watts and looks identical to the EVH model. The G12M Greenback is a 25 watt speaker.

From Celestion:



> The Heritage Series G12M faithfully reproduces the sonic qualities of the original '60s version Greenback used to make EVH tone from day one. With the addition of a black rear can featuring the EVH logo and his unmistakable red, white and black stripes, the G12EVH was born.



Based on that quote the EVH is a G12M. The only difference is the EVH logo.

As far as the 65 and 75 watt Creambacks, they are going to have their own tone. They use a bigger magnet and a different voice coil. Who knows if the surround and spider are the same as a G12M, probably not.


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## lordquilton

lordquilton said:


> What is up with Eminence? I really want to try a GB 128, but they only seem to offer them in 8 ohm. Is it possible to get a 16 ohm version? What would be the closest thing (16 ohms) they have to a GB 128?
> 
> Is there a reason why they only have 8 ohm versions of some of their speakers?



Well I may have got lucky. This speaker came out of a Crate Vintage Club 50 watt.




Word on the web is it's an Eminence Legend of some sort. I paid like $10 for it. What's to lose eh?


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## lordquilton

Just for the record, I asked Tony at Eminence about the speaker in the post above.
[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Calibri,sans-serif]
"Our closest stock speaker is the Legend GB128. We used to carry 16 ohm versions, but discontinued them due to a lack of demand. We now offer a custom shop program. You can order 16 ohm versions directly from Eminence.[/FONT][/FONT]"

[FONT=Times New Roman,serif][FONT=Calibri,sans-serif]"The rating of the Crate speaker should be 50 watts."

So I got my 16 ohm GB128 for a song, and broken in already too.
Man, something bad must be about to happen. 
[/FONT][/FONT]


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## Jaymz E

EV evm12 killer speakers for closed back cabinets. Anybody tried the new Eric Johnson AlniCo 50 watt speaker from Eminence?


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## MartyStrat54

Buy me a pair for my upcoming birthday and I will let you know all about them.


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## mtm105

What does polyfil do to a Cab??

I have a closed Crate V Series 2X12 with WGS. I'm always up for new ideas, esp. if it isn't expensive.


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## MartyStrat54

The proper amount of Polyfil will reduce boominess due to standing waves inside of the cabinet.

I have some oversized 212 cabs. These are the Avatar Contemporary cabs that are the biggest I've seen. I calculated about 2.25 cubic foot per speaker. I put some Polyfil on the bottom and back of the cab. This tightened up the bass.


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## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> The proper amount of Polyfil will reduce boominess due to standing waves inside of the cabinet.
> 
> I have some oversized 212 cabs. These are the Avatar Contemporary cabs that are the biggest I've seen. I calculated about 2.25 cubic foot per speaker. I put some Polyfil on the bottom and back of the cab. This tightened up the bass.



I have read that some people even put small pillows inside the cab to reduce bass boominess.

I haven't tried it myself, but they claim it works very well.


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## MartyStrat54

Well if you use a dense pillow covered in fabric, what you are basically doing is reducing the internal volume of the cabinet. It will absorb sound waves, but I really wouldn't go this route.

And it shouldn't be something floating around in the cab. Generally Polyfil is attached to the bottom and back.


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## Duffy49

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you use a dense pillow covered in fabric, what you are basically doing is reducing the internal volume of the cabinet. It will absorb sound waves, but I really wouldn't go this route.
> 
> And it shouldn't be something floating around in the cab. Generally Polyfil is attached to the bottom and back.




I agree. The pillow method seems very rinky dink. Polyfil seems like the way to go.


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## MartyStrat54

Well actually I used Polyfil in my Avatar, but I will probably change it out some time in the future with the white, non-itch indoor insulation. Polyfil has a tendency to pull apart and you have to be clever attaching it to the cab. The indoor insulation is a lot easier to work with and it cuts into precise pieces.

The bitch is having to buy a roll of insulation just to get some small pieces for a cab.


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## Swede

Duffy49 said:


> I have read that some people even put small pillows inside the cab to reduce bass boominess.
> 
> I haven't tried it myself, but they claim it works very well.



Its been working for drummers for at least 33 years (thats as far back as Ive seen it, when I started playing)


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## TheLoudness!!

I tend to play heavier down tuned music and here are some combinations I've tried. 

*Amp- 5150 with bias mod (no longer own)
*Guitar -Gibson Flying V stock (tuning was CGCFAD)
Speakers/cab- Marshall 1960A with a Greenback and V30 mix. 
Observations- One of the best combinations I've tried. Full and thick. The Greenbacks did get a little covered up by the V30's and of course not as loud as 4 V30's. The taming of the volume wasn't a bad thing with an amp that loud. I do like it loud though. 

*Amp- 5150- II stock
*Gibson V
*1960B with Marshall labeled V30s and Eminence Governors. 
Observations- The Eminence Governors dominated the V30s a bit. The Governors in my opinion are thicker and fuller. More aggressive and the top end isn't as harsh. I don't hate V30s but much prefer the Eminence Governor. The Eminences cost less to. I ended up selling the Celestions. 

*Engl Powerball, Fireball and Splawn Super Comp.
*Gibson V
Mesa 4x12 Eminence Legends
*The Legends were on the dark side and neutral sounding overall. They really didn't wow me. Keep in mind that the Engl's were on the compressed side and darker voiced as well. The Splawn was brighter of course but needed a more mid heavy speaker to shine and especially the Engl amps. 

Then I tried a Splawn 4x12 with Small blocks with the Splawn Super Comp. 
This sounded good but I wanted more tonal variety. They kind of got a little buzzy sounding as I was starting to tune to B at that point. 

I swapped in Swamp Thangs and Governors into the Splawn cab. HUGE sounding!!!

The Splawn cabs are constructed better than the Marshall cabs in every way and if you were to buy new, they are $100 cheaper. Just saying. 

My next combo will be a mix of Man O Wars and Wizards. I know it will be loud as hell but I'm thinking glorious sounding...

The Eminence speakers IMO are more direct (in your face) and dominating sounding. 

Another good speaker is the WGS ET65. I mixed these with Celestion K85;s in a Peavey 4x12 from the '80s. Sounded decent but needed more in the highs. But the Krank Krankenstein didn't have the most mids either so factor that in. Don't miss that amp...

I'm currently playing a Rivera Knucklehead K100 with a Peavey cab from the 1980s. Four G12K85's.


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## MartyStrat54

If you drop tune the Swamp Thangs are hard to beat.

The Governor is Eminence's V30 clone, but as you say it sounds better.

The Man O Wars are a G12T-75 clone, but they are more aggressive in the mids without being overbearing. I put these in a TSL122 back in 2008 and it was a marriage made in heaven.

Eminence speakers are more efficient than Celestions, with the Wizard being the loudest speaker they make. However the MOW is loud enough to pair up with the Wizards.

I don't drop tune so I don't have any experience on what these speakers will sound like with a low C.

After personally testing 16 Eminence speakers, many of them Celestion clones, I have to say that I don't know if I would call them clones because to me they have their own distinct sound.


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## TheLoudness!!

IMO, it's like taking a Celestion core sound and improving it.


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## AudioWonderland

I just got a CV-75 on Friday. I am replacing the ToneSpotter in the ISO cab with it. I hope it lives up to the discussion of being in the vein of an early V30. I think that would matc up well with my Legacy 3 head. I am waiting for my speaker connectors to arrive so I can install them all at once. It will make speaker changes much easier


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