# Are Mustard Caps Really Worth The Extra $$?



## Rick Lee

I'm about to start a '68 12000 build and am wondering if I should spring for Mustard caps. I have all the SoZo and Allen Bradley stuff I need, already laying around from previous builds. So I don't mind spending a little $$ on this IF there's an audible ROI. Is there? Will I hear the difference? And if so, which values do I need? I have heard I can get away with five or six .022 uF. Anything else? 400v minimum?


----------



## danfrank

Congratulations... You have just started a total crap-storm! LOL!
I can't wait to read some of the BS that will be posted to this thread!

Seriously though... Mustards are nice polyester film/foil capacitors. Film/foil construction will always be better for audio applications than metalized film which is the more common cap construction now. Mustard caps were the COMMON cap that was available in the 60s to mid 70s; that is the only reason the amp makers used them in amps of that time period. So, do they add to the Marshall sound? Sure... Why not. That's what was used at the time in those amps. You could also use any other polyester film/foil cap and 90%+ of the people couldn't tell the difference with mustards. Mojo Dijon caps are good polyester film/foil caps and they are inexpensive. Sozos are good polyester film/foil caps but they are pricey; I put them in the same class as Mercury Magnetics transformers... Good components but WAY WAY overpriced for what they are. Heyboer transformers beat the hell out of MM transformers, mainly because Heyboers are reasonably priced and their quality is excellent. I could go on and on and on...
I have mustard caps and I like them. They sound very good in a guitar amp. Are they worth the price? FUK NO!!! I think they're best used in a vintage amp that needs original parts to keep the amp original. Sprague 225s, 418s, WMFs all sound just as good, because they are quality polyester film/foil caps. Mojos sound good. Sozos sound good too.
I guess it depends what your goal is... Are you trying to make as accurate a reproduction as you can (but will never be an actual Marshall) or an amp that sounds really great based on the 68 SL circuit? What will make you the happiest? That's what I'd go with.

One more thing... The following caps are mustards (polyester film/foil) but much cheaper because they have radial leads instead of axial leads:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Mustard-0...978234?hash=item1c515aa0fa:g:mQAAAOSweW5U2MqC

Look for these in the values you need for less expensive mustards.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

The Mullard mustards, Bianchi Mustards, and the 630v Philps radials as shown in the link are all smoother in tone, but the tone is somewhat darker than with other caps. I used those radials the first four years of my builds, but it changes your layout of the turretboard.


----------



## neikeel

I confess that I use mustards in nearly all my marshall type builds, but then I am in the UK and bide my time, I only pay at reasonable prices. They do smooth the tone out. I like to use the Piher resistors too.
I think that if prices were too steep I would use another polyester/foil cap but importing Sozos and Mojo Dijon caps to UK is expensive (particularly at the moment)


----------



## soundboy57

I like the tone of mustards, and they are readily available, so I have used them in original amp restoration, as well
as a JTM45 replica that I had built.
Since we were using an original Radiospares output tranny, and as many NOS parts as possible, it seemed a no brainer to use Piher resistors and mustard caps in the rest of the build. Why not.
It sure sounds pretty 

I would probably use them again, if I decide to do another vintage build, although
many modern polyesters would sound the same or similar, I am sure.
Mike (coldengray) did a beautiful job....it just wouldn't look the same with orange drops


----------



## Rick Lee

Since this is a clone build, there's obviously no need to keep things "original" or "OEM." But if Mustards really do sound better, I'd like to use them. How many of which values do I need?


----------



## soundboy57

There used to be a comparison video that metropolous did years ago (using a 12000 series amp!), and it was pretty easy to tell the difference between the mustards, and a Mallory 150. The two different SOZO caps were very close, with the more expensive Sozo pretty close in character to the mustard. Mostly differences in overall detail, and coloration in the mids and bass. Very slight, but discernable.
The mustards did have a nice midrange and color to them, but so did the Sozo caps. I well try to find it.
Meanwhile, here is a really great thread, basically the same question as this one, with several guys having first hand experience with Sozo
and old mustards. One guy went nuts after replacing the Sozo in a Germino with old mustards.

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?175721-Real-Mustard-Caps-vs-Sozo-Vintage-Caps


----------



## soundboy57

Found it!

http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?t=40938


----------



## Rick Lee

soundboy57 said:


> Found it!
> 
> http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?t=40938



That's interesting. I hear the tones getting better with each one. SoZo vintage and then NOS Mustards sound best. 

Any idea how many of which values I need?


----------



## soundboy57

Yeah, I hear the same thing. The mustards with the NOS tubes are the sh*t.
I better keave it up to Neil or others to give you a total of the values you need, or go by your schematic.


----------



## stickyfinger

I like the Mustards for one reason only. To rule out that it cant be the caps. Strictly psychological


----------



## herbvis

The white mallory caps are good. I would save my $$$ for something with more impact. Here is a quote from George Metro 

"Friedman and I did some listening to caps while I was at his shop this past Summer. I had to fight off my anti Malory bias, but once I did I had to admit they sound very good. Closer to the mustards he had than Sozos. That was hard to swallow let me tell you.
Mallorys definitely changed at some point. Maybe when they switched to white. They don't sound like the veiled, muddy, one-dimensional old Mallorys any more. There was more detail than the Sozo Vintage we compared to."

I


----------



## Scumback Speakers

I put down the values for the Super Lead specs years ago, with alternate caps. Here you go. The prices listed here are what this cost to buy real Mustard caps in 2011 from trusted sources with 1968 date codes. I'm sure this has gone up in price since then, but these are the values and quantities you need.

Super Lead Caps needed

One (1) .0022uf/400v $6
Six (6) .022uf/400v $115
Two (2) .1uf/400v $20

Two (2) .68uf/250v $16 (these are the chicklet type Marshall sometimes used)

$157 plus shipping

Or

Two (2) .68uf/160v Mustard caps $80

$221 with the mustard caps.


----------



## Rick Lee

Great info! Thanks.


----------



## Kris Ford

herbvis said:


> The white mallory caps are good. I would save my $$$ for something with more impact. Here is a quote from George Metro
> 
> "Friedman and I did some listening to caps while I was at his shop this past Summer. I had to fight off my anti Malory bias, but once I did I had to admit they sound very good. Closer to the mustards he had than Sozos. That was hard to swallow let me tell you.
> Mallorys definitely changed at some point. Maybe when they switched to white. They don't sound like the veiled, muddy, one-dimensional old Mallorys any more. There was more detail than the Sozo Vintage we compared to."
> 
> I


----------



## stickyfinger

Prices vary depending on whos selling them and who wants money quick. Ive seen a pair of .1ufs sell for 60$ this year!! The guy sold 10 pairs to one dude. 600$ is outrageous. He must have been a builder and needed them asap. On the other hand ive bought for 3$ each this year lol...

Current market value IMO excluding shipping to the states cost.
13$ .022uf
3-6$ .0022uf
12$ .1uf
60-100$ for a pair of .68UF 160v


----------



## Rick Lee

I think prices on these are just nuts and I'm going to have to stick with SoZos.


----------



## ampmadscientist

Rick Lee said:


> I'm about to start a '68 12000 build and am wondering if I should spring for Mustard caps. I have all the SoZo and Allen Bradley stuff I need, already laying around from previous builds. So I don't mind spending a little $$ on this IF there's an audible ROI. Is there? Will I hear the difference? And if so, which values do I need? I have heard I can get away with five or six .022 uF. Anything else? 400v minimum?



*"Will I hear the difference?"*

no.


----------



## solarburn

What about feel the difference? Hearing is a big part of it but so is tactile comparisons. Sustain, harmonic feedback, how quick do the notes track etc.


----------



## liontato

soundboy57 said:


> Found it!
> 
> http://forum.metropoulos.net/viewtopic.php?t=40938


The mids on the NOS mustard caps are detailed and awesome. More weight on the notes. They get my vote.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Rick Lee said:


> I think prices on these are just nuts and I'm going to have to stick with SoZos.


If you don't get them you'll always wonder how it would have sounded and a year from now you'll be pulling your amp apart to find out. Its a sickness LOL just do it!


----------



## stickyfinger

liontato said:


> The mids on the NOS mustard caps are detailed and awesome. More weight on the notes. They get my vote.


Ya I kinda lean that way too.. however we knew exactly which one was which before we made are decision.


----------



## liontato

When I visit a music store I grab one guitar and a chord and plug my into everything there. I almost always lean vintage when going from amp to amp even though I want to lean to the newer stuff because of availability, price, etc. it's what my ear likes I guess. But you are correct....this wasn't a blind test. I don't claim to have great ears but I've spent a lot of money messing with amps....buying, mod'ing, selling (regretfully I sold some wonderful amps years ago) but of everything I've owned the vintage amps were the most pleasing to the ear. I do like some new stuff as well when it comes to high gain. Moderate gain and clean.....definitely vintage for me...


----------



## Big Mike

Rick Lee said:


> I'm about to start a '68 12000 build and am wondering if I should spring for Mustard caps. I have all the SoZo and Allen Bradley stuff I need, already laying around from previous builds. So I don't mind spending a little $$ on this IF there's an audible ROI. Is there? Will I hear the difference? And if so, which values do I need? I have heard I can get away with five or six .022 uF. Anything else? 400v minimum?



Didn't read the whole thread.

Sozo are fine. don't over think it.

I did both. It's very VERY subtle and most can't tell the diff.
Particularly in the band context.

But if you want internet bragging rights, by all means...LOL


----------



## Rick Lee

Went SoZo. I started the build last night, but forgot to order some stuff and am still waiting on the PT to arrive. So it will be a while before I get much progress done, but I'm not in a hurry at all. I love my '68 clone build so much, I wonder why I'm doing this one. But those YT videos of George's 12000 with the Variac switch just melt my heart.


----------



## Kris Ford

What would a scope say about the differences?


----------



## Mr Holly

soundboy57 said:


> I like the tone of mustards, and they are readily available, so I have used them in original amp restoration, as well
> as a JTM45 replica that I had built.
> Since we were using an original Radiospares output tranny, and as many NOS parts as possible, it seemed a no brainer to use Piher resistors and mustard caps in the rest of the build. Why not.
> It sure sounds pretty
> 
> I would probably use them again, if I decide to do another vintage build, although
> many modern polyesters would sound the same or similar, I am sure.
> Mike (coldengray) did a beautiful job....it just wouldn't look the same with orange drops


Wow! That is beautiful! Where dig you find that turret board? If you don't mind me asking?


----------



## junk notes

I have used 1st and 2nd gen sozos and still prefer the Mustards for a '68.


----------

