# Kramer VS Charvel! Battle of the 80's Brands!



## 80's Rocker

Alright guys! I got a Charvel model one not too long ago and I was thrilled with it at first but now that I am really comparing it to other guitars alot it is not what I was looking for and so I decided not to upgrade it how I was going to. So I have decided that I am going to start saving up for a nice guitar that will do my Marshall justice! So things I am looking for are 

-strat style body
-single humbucker pickup
-ORIGINAL Floyd Rose
-pointy/bananna/hockey stick headstock
-maple or alder body

I was going to get a Gibson Les Paul, but even though it would be more versatile and I would get some great 70's tones when I need them, I just think that a Kramer or Charvel would make me happiest. So, I am here to ask people that have owned one or both of the brands, the good and bad things about each. Whose quality overall is best? Not as much tone related because every guitar is different. Just things like quality, ease of setup and playability, tuning, general things like that. (although if you do feel that one sounds better in tone than the other then feel free to say why). Just tell me which one you thing is better (reissues or original 80's)and why. I cant really play either brand anywhere so thats why I ask. Oh and pics are always welcome along with vids. 

Thanks guys, and Rock On!


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## livebiz

The US built Kramers and Charvels from the 80s are both good choices. I have both and as nice as a good Kramer is, a good period Charvel is a far better guitar. The unfinished necks are awesome and the fit and finish on a good San Dimas era guitar is custom shop quality.





USA Pacer Special. Most beak necks on Kramers on the chunky side, but are comfortable to play. 




83 Charvel


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## Purgasound

I had a Charvel a while back, traded it for a Spector bass. The only thing that keeps me from regretting the trade is I still hang out with the guy that has it and I know it's being taken care of an rocked properly. It was a Soloist/Dinky type. Great neck, one of the best bolt-ons I ever had.


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## bro blue

Charvel all the way.


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## butterguitar

I got the Kramer 1984 and I love it. However its not made anymore, but its a fine guitar for everything from blues to metal. It is however, a copy of Eddie Van Halen's 5150. 

The neck of the Kramer is beefy though (im a fan of U necks), while they are still comfortable, the Charvel's have a much slimmer neck. Too eachs own.


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## SwedishWings

I have to agree with the folks above that Charvel (US made) are superior. i never agree with the neck of Kramer, it's harder to play.

You might want to check out Schecter before you buy one. I had a strat style Mahogany Schecter in the 80's that was just the best guitar i ever owned: tone, feeling, stability, flexibility, everything was just right with that guitar. I traded it for a vintage Strat, which i'll still regret...


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## poeman33

I had a Kramer Baretta the first year they came out. It just sang. The natural finish neck took a little while to get used to, and you had to wipe it down after every set, but the guitar had so much natural sustain it was great. It was my main stage guitar. I overused the Floyd all the time...but who didn't in the 80's.


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## Grandturk

80's Rocker said:


> -strat style body
> -single humbucker pickup
> -ORIGINAL Floyd Rose
> -pointy/bananna/hockey stick headstock
> -maple or alder body



You're going to have trouble with those specs and the brands you've specified.

A - Kramers have a modified strat body. The Charvel body is much closer to a strat shape. Kramers just look funky to me.

B - Kramer had exclusive license to the Floyd Rose back in the day. That means there's a hell of a lot of Charvels out there with V trems, Kahlers and licensed Floyds.

C - anything imported is typically not going to be alder or maple - think basswood (which is awesome)

How much do you want to spend?

Do you want a new guitar, used guitar or vintage collector guitar?


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## 80's Rocker

Grandturk said:


> You're going to have trouble with those specs and the brands you've specified.
> 
> A - Kramers have a modified strat body. The Charvel body is much closer to a strat shape. Kramers just look funky to me.
> 
> B - Kramer had exclusive license to the Floyd Rose back in the day. That means there's a hell of a lot of Charvels out there with V trems, Kahlers and licensed Floyds.
> 
> C - anything imported is typically not going to be alder or maple - think basswood (which is awesome)
> 
> How much do you want to spend?
> 
> Do you want a new guitar, used guitar or vintage collector guitar?



A-The body shapes of both are fine, I just meant I want a double cutaway type and not a star or explorer shape or something.

B- Now that is one of my problems, I have never really seen many old Charvels with OFR's and I am leaning more towards Charvel (I posted on another forum too) based on all the responses I have got with people saying they were better, especially the neck.

C-I suppose Basswood would be fine. I would just prefer those other woods. I know baretta reissues (which most people claim to be better thatn originals) have solid maple bodies. I thought original san dimas back in the 80's would have an alder but maybe not...

I am looking to spend probably no more $1500 unless I really really want it. 

What do you guys think about these guitars.

Kramer Baretta 1985 Reissue USA Made with Hard Case - eBay (item 260491005636 end time Oct-18-09 18:00:30 PDT)

2005 USA CHARVEL SAN DIMAS STANDARD REISSUE~JACKSON - eBay (item 330368346550 end time Oct-18-09 23:26:26 PDT)

Ther is also a Kramer in Nashville TN, which is a couple hours away from where I live, that is a Kramer 1984 prototype Baretta reissue that is the only one of its kind that never went into production. 













Thats it and I might actually check that one out. (although how great can a prototype of an $850 guitar that never went into production be?)

Thanks for all of your feedback guys, its all appreciated greatly.


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## shawkey

charvel every time, although i do miss my old pacer imperial(weighed a ton)


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## shawkey

ahhh my vote just missed 66.6 and 7 hundreths


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## Grandturk

I couldn't get to ebay auction for the Charvel, but if its a 2005 San Dimas pointy - these are great guitars. There's been some reported problems with the clear lifting on the headstock, but that can be fixed by Charvel - lifetime warranty. Don't know how much they were asking in the auction, but these typically go for $600 - $800. They were not great sellers when they came out and were blown out by dealers at $1000 at the end. The ProMods further devalued them when they came out in 2008.

If you're seeking a vintage Charvel - strat head or pointy, be prepared to do your homework because there's a lot of fakes out there. moreso with the strat heads, but the pointies have there share as well. Buy from a reputable collector. These have been pretty scarce on the market and I would be prepared to pay more than $1500 since Jackson pointies are approaching the $1000 and over mark as well.

If you didn't like your Model 1, you may not like a USA Charvel, either. The most significant difference is the finish on the neck - otherwise, the frets, fretboard radius, and basic geometry is the same. USA's just had different body wood (typically alder, but could be anything) and an oiled neck. San Dimas Charvels typically had Duncan or Dimarzio pickups - Jackson pickups didn't come along until Charvel pointies were largely discontinued.


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## 80's Rocker

I like the feel of the model 1, it just has problems. It does not star in tune for a long time, it does not have much sustain at all, the notes die out easy if I bend too much, and the neck can be moved up and down very slightly which badly puts the strings out of pitch then I have to retune it again, I also dont like the regular little tremelo, you cant use it and stay in tune at all. I also think the sound could be alot better. It has a great feel that I love to it, just not the quality that I am looking for. The san dimas model was $1125 buy it now so I guess that is not a good deal according to what you just told me lol.


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## Grandturk

80's Rocker said:


> IIt does not star in tune for a long time, it does not have much sustain at all, the notes die out easy if I bend too much, and the neck can be moved up and down very slightly which badly puts the strings out of pitch then I have to retune it again, I also dont like the regular little tremelo, you cant use it and stay in tune at all. I also think the sound could be alot better.



Clearly it needs some work. Typically, these guitars are very good playing and sounding - and have drastically increased in price in the last few years.

But - be aware, that pointy headstocks and vintage trems flat out do not work - USA made or otherwise - they will rarely stay in tune under even moderate whammy use.


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## kernal

I've had a Framer Focus 6000 since it was new, bought it in '86. It has a 1 5/8" R2 nut and an original Floyd, banana headstaock, a thin neck, and an alder body. 

I routed out the front (to pull up on the bar and octave), put a Bartolini LC 60double HB in the bridge, and two Duncan hotrail singles. I also modded the electronics a bit, and replaced all the frets with 6100's. 

The Focus 6000's were made by ESP in Japan. Basically, they are a very high quality import (I would say these were just as good as their American made counterparts). The body, which is "square-cut" around the edges, was modeled after a Jackson soloist of the time period, I believe. 

Basically the guitar is a screaming shred machine. Awesome, totally awesome! Wouldn't ever trade or sell it for anything! Love it.

I've had a Fender Srat, an LP, a BC Rich...sold them all (regretfully). But the F6000 stays with me...I'll never sell it. 

But I also still have my Charvel SD star (that's needs restoration). The neck has always felt too wide, but I know if I replace the original neck, it won't be worth as much. It also has the original Wilkinson trem, which is basically the same as a Fender...it's no Floyd!

Out of the two, I like the Kramer. Not that it's a better guitar (the Charvel is a MUCH better guitar), but I've had the Kramer so long, it's like an extension of me when I play it. I guess my Kramer is to me, like "Blackie" is to Clapton.


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## Grandturk

kernal said:


> like "Blackie" is to Clapton.



Or "was" I guess...


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## butrus




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## kernal

Nice Charvel butrus. From the logo on headstock, i'd say a Model 4 perhaps from the late 80's?


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## Grandturk

kernal said:


> Nice Charvel butrus. From the logo on headstock, i'd say a Model 4 perhaps from the late 80's?



That's a 675 - 24 frets, neck through. The 475, which replaced the Model 4, was a 22 fretter bolt on.


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## 80's Rocker

So, I have this posted on the vintage charvel and jackson forum, this one, and the kramer forum (to get 2 biased and one not lol). So far Charvel is winning by far. I would love to get one but I just have a strange feeling telling me to get a Kramer 1985 baretta reissue. I am not sure why when everything and everybody else is telling me otherwise. The only thing I cant figure out is that if Charvel is so much better then why in the 80's did like every guitar player become Kramer endorsees at some point or another? Not trying to make it a smart-a$$ question, its a serious one.


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## HOT TUBES 70

remember the fusion deluxe , what a killer axe !! 
shredder guys dream !!! 
my pal had one ......mint shape , lost it in a flood of his basement !!!


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## steelhorse

I vote for this:






27 fret, 25.5" scale. Crushing machine.


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## HOT TUBES 70

thats a nice guitar as well .
sweet top !!
27 frets , i would not need that many myself !!! LOL !!!


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## Grandturk

I never liked Kramer necks. The always felt wrong in my hands. Also, they used smaller frets which I never liked.

But obviously, I'm biased:


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## steelhorse

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> thats a nice guitar as well .
> sweet top !!
> 27 frets , i would not need that many myself !!! LOL !!!



You never know. LOL

That was made to my spec. 

Flame maple top, 
natural reveal binding
maple neck thru module with mahogany wings
ebony fretboard
grover 18:1's
chrome EMG 81/60
Original floyd
Vol/Vol/Tone 3 way
Dunlop pins
Signed by Bernie Rico Jr.


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## 80's Rocker

It still is looking like Charvel is taking a big lead. Mostly having to do with the necks like most people are mentioning. I actually played my first Kramer yesterday and I liked the neck alot actually. I also like Charvel necks alot too though. The way I see it right now is that I am probably going to get whichever I can find the best deal on. However I just have a feeling I should get the 85 baretta even though that most people say to go Charvel, I am not sure why though. You guys have some nice guitars though....perhaps a bit more pics are needed to help me make a decision  .


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## steelhorse

My take on this whole what kind of guitar to get is to not get tunnel vision. Kramer, Charvel, they're not the only strat type guitars out there that are any good, there are tons.


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## 80's Rocker

Yea, but they are going to be the 2 that really gives me that 80's vibe when I play it. And for the specs that I want they are the 2 that fit my criteria the best.


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## steelhorse

Whatever that's supposed to mean. I play mostly 80's stuff and have no problem hitting it with my gear and none of it is from the 80's or named Kramer or Charvel.

I like K's and C's, I just like the feel, and tone of the others more.

Enjoy the hunt my friend!


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## Jesstaa

I love Jacksons, so I'ma say Charvel.

Never played a Kramer though... Infact I've never played that many guitars really =( I should start finding out what works for me, although I think my likes are pretty thrash metal generic.


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## butrus

Grandturk said:


> That's a 675 - 24 frets, neck through. The 475, which replaced the Model 4, was a 22 fretter bolt on.



675? does it exist?
Its 650xl made in 89
Sold it last week tho,good market at the moment $$$


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## siav

I own a Kramer 600 ST from the 80s. It was flashy pink and I just removed the color few years ago.
The Floyd Rose is very worn and it s not a II model.
The neck is a 3 piece and veeeery stable, not too big and not too skinny either, it plays good!
Im wondering what the body can be made of, it seems like it has different layers of wood, if someone could help me to know what s this made of?

Well, I reallu love USA made JAckons and each time I played an 80s Charvel I loved it as well!
I keep that Kramer cauz it s the first electric guitar I bought


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## Grandturk

butrus said:


> 675? does it exist?
> Its 650xl made in 89
> Sold it last week tho,good market at the moment $$$



My mistake. You're right - 650, not 675 - I got my 75's confused with my 50's. They went 275, 375, 475 and 650.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Charvel all the Way...USA or Jap they are far better...a lot of Kramers had Poplar bodies...lame compared to the Alder that the Jap Charvels had
another thing to look at is the headstocks.....ill take a scarfed tiltback over a scooped banana every time...a lot of those type of kramer necks have mad deflection going on
the way they are laid out is horrible...you know when the tip of the head is pulling back towards the body that something is wrong and it is ....its called deflection....wich will equal loss of sustain....anybody that plays knows what that means....Lame


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## MacMan

get a Kramer because that is what was played most by the bands you like in the 80's and that is what you are after. Why get something and only be kind of happy. Get exactly what you want to play and if that's a Kramer then get it. You already know the answer you are just prolonging the inevitable. 

Kramer = good guitar
Charvel = good guitar

for me being an 80's rock guy I'd go the Kramer (actually I did)


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## 80's Rocker

MacMan said:


> get a Kramer because that is what was played most by the bands you like in the 80's and that is what you are after. Why get something and only be kind of happy. Get exactly what you want to play and if that's a Kramer then get it. You already know the answer you are just prolonging the inevitable.
> 
> Kramer = good guitar
> Charvel = good guitar
> 
> for me being an 80's rock guy I'd go the Kramer (actually I did)




See, I keep getting suggestions like Buggs which all tell me go for the charvel because it is a nicer guitar, and I would love to get a Charvel....but...there is just something about a Kramer that I really love and want...I think it just has some kind of mojo to it that I like. I really want the 1984 custom reissue in either of the bullseye patterns the most.











Kramer Guitars

Pretty sweet axe and I love the bullseye finish. 

My second choice would be the Baretta reissue or maybe even my own custom Charvel gutiar if it did not cost too much. I will most likely ask for a guitar like these for Christmas if I dont find one at a really good deal before so.


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## Grandturk

Buggs.Crosby said:


> ...lame compared to the Alder that the Jap Charvels had



You mean Basswood, of course... and poplar on the neck-throughs.


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## Gtrman58

I have never personally owned either brand. The ones I have played on I thought were really similiar to each other. I aways thought they were/could be made by the same supplier/company. Good guitars at a decnt price back in the day.

Pretty much a toss up to me.


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## JonasAberg

For 1500$ I think you could easily score an original 80's Kramer Baretta with a solid maple body and OFR. 

I have two Kramer guitars right now; one Baretta and a Baretta II. The neck on the Baretta II is totally different from the Baretta, much flatter, "shredder-like". 

Charvel's (except the model series) seem to be harder to find. Kramers are great guitars and can usually be found a lot cheaper. 

If you want to learn more about Kramer's go check out vintagekramer.com
There you can compare models and specs to see which model would suit you the best.


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## ^AXE^

My Charvel is 22 plus and still rockin!!!


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## Buggs.Crosby

Grandturk said:


> You mean Basswood, of course... and poplar on the neck-throughs.


No....i do mean alder....yes they did use Poplar on some neck thru's
i have owned many jap charvels over the years and not one was ever Basswood
most i repainted to look like my hero's guitars...like vivs 4 skull model
and if asked my experiance i can let you know i worked at Musikraft for years
and know my woods very well...i have even done alot of work for Paul Unkert
who had a major hand in Kramers rise to fame
Hell most companies never even heard of Basswood until Ibeenhad made the Jem for Vai...yes it was used but not like it was after that
IMHO Basswood = poop

and im far from against all Kramers the Nightswan i owned i wish i still had
im just against some of the design flaws like the banana heads...very bad design


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## 80's Rocker

I believe they corrected the neck/headstock issue on the Kramer reissues if what I have read correctly.


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## Grandturk

Buggs.Crosby said:


> No....i do mean alder....yes they did use Poplar on some neck thru's
> i have owned many jap charvels over the years and not one was ever Basswood
> most i repainted to look like my hero's guitars...like vivs 4 skull model
> and if asked my experiance i can let you know i worked at Musikraft for years
> and know my woods very well...i have even done alot of work for Paul Unkert
> who had a major hand in Kramers rise to fame
> Hell most companies never even heard of Basswood until Ibeenhad made the Jem for Vai...yes it was used but not like it was after that
> IMHO Basswood = poop



No.

Catalog Scans - Jackson Charvel Guitars - 1986 Charvel imports


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## Buggs.Crosby

It may say that in the scans but this was modeled after one of my jap starts
https://www.musikraft.com/product-info.php?pid122.html
and it is defiantly Alder


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## 80's Rocker

Hey Buggs, how would you compare one of the maple Kramers that did not have a headstock issue with one of the Charvels?


On a side note, I went to my local pawn shop today and played a Kramer pacer and a Charvel model 2, I prefered the Kramer more but i prefer my model 1 to the Kramer. How much do necks differ in between different models of these guitar brands?


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## j2112c

I owned a Charvel and loved it. I voted Charvel. Nothing against Kramers - the Baretta was nice - but I have to say hand on heart though I voted Charvel, the best shredder I ever did play was a Kramer NightSwan... oh God, very thin neck a joy to play, unlike anything else Kramer ever produced. I could not afford it at £800 in the early 1990's (seems cheap now) and of course it could be argued that it was never a Kramer anyway but a Buddy Blaze concoction and that it was not about in the '80's so does not count... I still want one.


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## 80's Rocker

To be honest I am really surprised at how much Charvel is beating Kramer in the polls. I mean Kramer was the #1 selling brand in the mid 80's.


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## Buggs.Crosby

j2112c said:


> the best shredder I ever did play was a Kramer NightSwan... oh God, very thin neck a joy to play, unlike anything else Kramer ever produced. I could not afford it at £800 in the early 1990's (seems cheap now) and of course it could be argued that it was never a Kramer anyway but a Buddy Blaze concoction and that it was not about in the '80's so does not count... I still want one.


The neck on those were way different than most Kramers for a couple of reasons...the biggest was its scale...24-3/4" it made a huge difference in feel
...the Jake E Lee esp strats were the same thing in that respect. and yes the Night Swans had very thin necks but i have played Charvels that were thinner 
my main Charvel SD clone is .750 - .780 and i know the NS was thinner but i never measured it while i owned it


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## 80's Rocker

So a this is a question for you guys that have played the baretta reissue or own one. Is the neck at the top really narrow like a strat "V shaped" neck? I know it has the R2 nut on the floyd. I just need to know this as this will really help me decide. Also, does anybody know if the 84 reissue has the same neck shape and width?


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## 80's Rocker

Alright guys, I am reviving this thread to tell you guys my decision. I went with a 1987 Kramer baretta. This is the exact model I wanted and I am very excited to get it. These are the pics I saw of it that the seller was showing. I am not in possession of the guitar and will not be until Christmas as it is my gift lol. Regardless of that, I am just so excited that I had to share it. So here are some pics of the guitar (I know the pickup is upside down and the backplate is wrong in these pics but that is corrected now)































There she is! I really wanted one with a maple board and so thats what I saved for until I found.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Tilt back head..not scooped...Good job..these are the better necks. and i also love maple boards....i'm just wondering why the pickup is backwards. usually the adjustable slugs face the bridge or neck when there is one in that position. it may not be original


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## 80's Rocker

He said it was like that when he got it but he fixed that issue and he did not know why it was like that. If is not the original that is fine, it does not bother me. I had a choice of a Duncan 59(I think) or the JB but I took the JB as I wanted to try it out. I am really excited to get it and hopefully I will get to "test it out" before Christmas comes!


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## Buggs.Crosby

I have the JB in the bridge of every guitar i own....best pickup for me....it just may be original as lots of Kramers cam with them...if it is it should have a metal braid instead of just a plastic jacket insulation....and if you don't like it let me know as i'll buy it in a heartbeat


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## omikl

I'm going to throw my own 10 Sen in here...

How about keeping your eyes peeled for a Charvel Model 5A?






On the left in this shot, obviously. Ok, they have the Floyd licensed JT-6 trem, and the pickups are from Jackson USA, but I think you may find your requirements are well and truly satisfied by an example of this breed.

To come forward in time a little, may I suggest the Charvel Journeyman from 2000 to 2002?






No locking whammy, but a SD JB, alder body and a neck allegedly shaped like those of the 80's San Dimas guitars.


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## 80's Rocker

I already got my guitar lol its the black Kramer above.


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## woodddj

Grandturk said:


> there is no way in hell i would sit my ax that close to the edge of a drop that far down. dude what were you thinking? now it looks cool with the water behind it, but what if a freak gust of wind blew it off.


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## Lespaulnmarshall

I Love the charvel's neck's an sound, and i like kramers funky looks.

but i voted charvel.


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## 80's Rocker

I thought long and hard about Charvels but in the end I knew the Kramer was exactly what I wanted and what would give me the mojo I wanted, so I went with it.


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## Grandturk

woodddj said:


> there is no way in hell i would sit my ax that close to the edge of a drop that far down. dude what were you thinking? now it looks cool with the water behind it, but what if a freak gust of wind blew it off.



Then you'll really like this one:






That's 28 stories up or so...


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## 80's Rocker

At least that one is on a stand!!! The other one is on its side!

Although I would not do either of those under any circumstances.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Grandturk said:


> that's 28 stories up or so...




let me know next summer before you put it out for a tan....i'll be waiting below!


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## MacMan

80's Rocker said:


> Alright guys, I am reviving this thread to tell you guys my decision. I went with a 1987 Kramer baretta. This is the exact model I wanted and I am very excited to get it. These are the pics I saw of it that the seller was showing. I am not in possession of the guitar and will not be until Christmas as it is my gift lol. Regardless of that, I am just so excited that I had to share it. So here are some pics of the guitar (I know the pickup is upside down and the backplate is wrong in these pics but that is corrected now)
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> There she is! I really wanted one with a maple board and so thats what I saved for until I found.




Lovely guitar mate, I wish I had one like that. maybe next year or later


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## 80's Rocker

Thanks! I have alot on ebay lately and the like, some good deals others waayy overpriced for what they are.


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## MacMan

I was wondering if you had gotten a Kramer, glad to see you are happy with it.


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