# What do you guys think of the immigration bill in AZ



## longfxukxnhair

I am not looking to start shit with this thread. So lets keep it cool. Since I live in AZ I am curious to know what is being said in other states about this.


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## NewReligion

I am unfamiliar with the Bill.


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## longfxukxnhair

Heres a short article on it. The bill itself is 17 pages long (if I remember correctly)

Supporters say it would give officers more freedom to do their jobs and would require little additional training. They say the bill has just enough teeth to keep departments from continuing to ignore immigration laws; on the flip side, it expressly forbids officers from racial profiling.

Opponents say it would require departments to make immigration enforcement a priority over violent crimes, drain already strained financial and manpower resources, force officers to target individuals based on their accent or dress, and result in costly lawsuits against municipalities for participating in racial profiling as well as failing to adequately enforce the law.

The Arizona Legislature on Monday passed Senate Bill 1070, which would, among other things, make it a state crime to be in the country illegally. Republican Gov. Jan Brewer has until the end of the day Saturday to sign the bill, veto it or do nothing and allow it to become law.


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## NewReligion

Big CAN of worms say I.


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## longfxukxnhair

It is really stirring a shit storm here. But when I read comments on the local board it seems that those in favor out number those who dont by 3 to 1. Rasmussen has it at 70% favor the bill


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## FLICKOFLASH

Arizona vs. Illegals... - My Les Paul Forums


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## LPMarshall hack

We feel your pain here in SoCal too. I would support something like this in CA, but with our liberal gov't here (Ahhnold is a Republican only in name)...fuggettaboudit!


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## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> Arizona vs. Illegals... - My Les Paul Forums



Thx FLICK


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## longfxukxnhair

not in my thread KLMN. You fucking corn hole


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## Adwex

longfxukxnhair said:


> not in my thread KLMN. You fucking corn hole



I kicked his spam ass for ya.


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## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> I kicked his spam ass for ya.



Thx AD. You rock


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## TwinACStacks

Personally I think they NEED to keep you riff-raff from AZ. out of Nogales....


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## longfxukxnhair

TwinACStacks said:


> Personally I think they NEED to keep you riff-raff from AZ. out of Nogales....



dink


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## TwinACStacks

Hey Longhair just pick me up some leather goods next time you're down there would ya?

reverse migrant.


 TWIN


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## longfxukxnhair

TwinACStacks said:


> Hey Longhair just pick me up some leather goods next time you're down there would ya?
> 
> reverse migrant.
> 
> 
> TWIN



I stay away from Mexico. We must obey their laws and if we dont, never heard from again.

It was 20+ years since I was there and I got out of the bar and back across the boarder before the federalies showed up.


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## Buggs.Crosby

i think we should turn the whole border into an outdoor rifle range....free for U.S citizens of course...lol


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## longfxukxnhair

longfxukxnhair said:


> I stay away from Mexico. We must obey their laws and if we dont, never heard from again.
> 
> It was 20+ years since I was there and I got out of the bar and back across the boarder before the federalies showed up.



What I failed to mention is this story included a case of beer, 3 women and a chicken.


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## RynoAZ

I'm all about this bill. I think Brewer has been put in a tough spot - with Obamacare and all the other things coming down the Federal Pike, she's had to make some really tough decisions to save our state some money. A great example of something that affects me directly: she had to close the State Fire Marshall's Office, so now those duties get passed on to local municipalities or eliminated altogether (like new FF1&2 certs). It's not like she hates firefighters, she's gotta save some money.

But despite some rather extreme actions on her part, I still believe she has the best interests of the residents' freedoms and protection at heart. Say what you will about Arpaio, but her support of his programs shows that she is dedicated to keeping us safe and keeping crime something to be PUNISHED for. Her support of the concealed carry law further protects otherwise lawful citizens. And I belive her support of this illegal immigrant law will finally send a message - we do not tolerate ignoring the laws of immigration in AZ. Hopefully all other states follow suit. I mean, wow, what a concept - it's illegal to be an illegal. Good!!

As for the opposers of this bill, STFU. Quit bleeding heart to criminals! Really, so what if cops have to profile? Guess what? They do it everyday anyway. How else do you think they solve crime? It's not like every person in the state with a Mexican heritage is suddenly going to get stopped; but you bet damned sure we won't be seeing them standing on the street corners anymore. Oh gosh, did I just profile? Too fucking bad! If you have a valid green card, you have nothing to worry about.

Now, if we could just pass a law that wouldn't allow them to give birth in our country under our healthcare system, run away to mexico without paying a bill, and STILL allow them a naturalized infant. That's bullshit!!


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## TwinACStacks

longfxukxnhair said:


> What I failed to mention is this story included a case of beer, 3 women and a chicken.



I'm betting there was a Donkey involved in there somewhere as well....


 TWIN


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## longfxukxnhair

TwinACStacks said:


> I'm betting there was a Donkey involved in there somewhere as well....
> 
> 
> TWIN



You promised not to tell.
You bastard


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## longfxukxnhair

It was just signed into law!


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## j2112c

longfxukxnhair said:


> What I failed to mention is this story included a case of beer, 3 women and a chicken.



What!!?! You bought 3 women and chicken for a crate of beer... Man.... you were done!


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## longfxukxnhair

j2112c said:


> What!!?! You bought 3 women and chicken for a crate of beer... Man.... you were done!



LOL
I didnt wanna brag


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## j2112c

longfxukxnhair said:


> LOL
> I didnt wanna brag



Ha ha.. "Brag!" are you kidding! LFH, mate... didn't your mates tell you... never, ever, ever exchange beer for women and chicken unless it is the end of the night.. you have had too much beer, the chicken is in a Kebab with Fries and the women live 5 minutes from where you are propped up saving you a taxi. Ha ha


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## RynoAZ

longfxukxnhair said:


> it was just signed into law!



yay brewer!!!


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## longfxukxnhair

RynoAZ said:


> yay brewer!!!



I agree! I am tired of people making this a race issue. Its about illegal which isnt a race but a action. Its illegal to sell drugs. Its illegal to murder. Its illegal to rape. People want these laws enforced. All we are asking is that illegal immigration be enforced. Tougher laws needed to be passed. If Washington does anything it will be to give amnesty. They did that in the 80's and here we are again.


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## TwinACStacks

Nice knowing You Guys but I gotta spli....

Wait a minute, that's only for Arizona ain't it?


Whew... close call !!! I thought I was going to have to go back to Gelgemek.


 TWIN


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## RynoAZ

longfxukxnhair said:


> I agree! I am tired of people making this a race issue. Its about illegal which isnt a race but a action. Its illegal to sell drugs. Its illegal to murder. Its illegal to rape. People want these laws enforced. All we are asking is that illegal immigration be enforced. Tougher laws needed to be passed. If Washington does anything it will be to give amnesty. They did that in the 80's and here we are again.



I never once thought it was a race issue. If it were Canadians sneaking in the country in record numbers, as a white dude I would be proud to show my state-issued driver's license, proving my citizenship. The only reason it became a race issue, is that _particular_ race seems awful proud of flaunting their nationality in our faces, ignoring immigration laws, and bringing OUR society down to their standards rather than meeting ours.

That was BULLSHIT when they marched at the capital and took a day off work. I wish Joe was down there busting every last one of their illegal asses and sending them back. (Of course, Phil Gordon - that pussy - stops a lot of MCSO's operations.) Now we have the laws behind us to do so!! Let's see them get uppity now!

I've never been against Mexicans, but I am against crime. It's nice to know it's finally enforceable. It's sad that it hasn't been before. I really hope that a lot of other states follow suit on this.

BTW, did you happen to read what Obama thinks about this? What a tool!Obama says AZ Immigration bill is 'misguided'


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## longfxukxnhair

RynoAZ said:


> I never once thought it was a race issue. If it were Canadians sneaking in the country in record numbers, as a white dude I would be proud to show my state-issued driver's license, proving my citizenship. The only reason it became a race issue, is that _particular_ race seems awful proud of flaunting their nationality in our faces, ignoring immigration laws, and bringing OUR society down to their standards rather than meeting ours.
> 
> That was BULLSHIT when they marched at the capital and took a day off work. I wish Joe was down there busting every last one of their illegal asses and sending them back. (Of course, Phil Gordon - that pussy - stops a lot of MCSO's operations.) Now we have the laws behind us to do so!! Let's see them get uppity now!
> 
> I've never been against Mexicans, but I am against crime. It's nice to know it's finally enforceable. It's sad that it hasn't been before. I really hope that a lot of other states follow suit on this.
> 
> BTW, did you happen to read what Obama thinks about this? What a tool!Obama says AZ Immigration bill is 'misguided'



Dont get me started on Gordon. As for Obama. This forces his hand I believe. The dems count on the illegals as part of the future voting base. I doubt the hispanic community sees that for what it is.


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## Buggs.Crosby

it's a shame it took a woman to show she has bigger balls than the men on capital hill......cons and libs alike have done nothing...just like every other issue
one day maybe they will agree to help us U.S citizens instead of fighting over stupid shit.....they can start with leaving their religious beliefs at home.....untill some form of true god returns to tell us where we are going wrong then they need to STFU..........sorry but to run your daily habits and force other people to agree on something that was written back in the stone ages is absurd at best....lets deal with the now issues and worry about sinning later.....last i heard you wont burn in hell for my sins....and if i'm willing to burn should that not be my choice?

my earlier comment was not based on racism...it is aimed at the smugglers and gang wannabees and the ones that commit crimes then say No Halba....case in point
last week i noticed my neighbors car had the front smashed in....he and all the people that live there are illegal....i assume anyway as they all have out of state plates....then the wife noticed a hit and run accident in the paper....guess what car left the scene.....so we called the local law and reported that we believed was the car was parked next door with a tarp covering it while it was in a garage...seemed odd that's why we called.....guess what?...it was the car they were looking for. here is the kicker....no one was arrested or charged because they all claimed the car was not theirs.....no one was deported and the car is still there....yes the car is still in that garage....how the fuck does that happen?.....because more that 3/4 of our police department is Spanish and they are too busy sympathizing with their peoples plight to uphold the law.....now back to the rifle range i go


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> it's a shame it took a woman to show she has bigger balls than the men on capital hill......cons and libs alike have done nothing...just like every other issue
> one day maybe they will agree to help us U.S citizens instead of fighting over stupid shit.....they can start with leaving their religious beliefs at home.....untill some form of true god returns to tell us where we are going wrong then they need to STFU..........sorry but to run your daily habits and force other people to agree on something that was written back in the stone ages is absurd at best....lets deal with the now issues and worry about sinning later.....last i heard you wont burn in hell for my sins....and if i'm willing to burn should that not be my choice?
> 
> my earlier comment was not based on racism...it is aimed at the smugglers and gang wannabees and the ones that commit crimes then say No Halba....case in point
> last week i noticed my neighbors car had the front smashed in....he and all the people that live there are illegal....i assume anyway as they all have out of state plates....then the wife noticed a hit and run accident in the paper....guess what car left the scene.....so we called the local law and reported that we believed was the car was parked next door with a tarp covering it while it was in a garage...seemed odd that's why we called.....guess what?...it was the car they were looking for. here is the kicker....no one was arrested or charged because they all claimed the car was not theirs.....no one was deported and the car is still there....yes the car is still in that garage....how the fuck does that happen?.....because more that 3/4 of our police department is Spanish and they are too busy sympathizing with their peoples plight to uphold the law.....now back to the rifle range i go



18 years ago I was on my way home from work. I remember it well, it was my birthday. I come to this intersection at Peoria and I-17 that has a over pass. As I was sitting at the light I witnessed an accident. A guy ran a red light and tboned a womans car. It wasnt high speed so the damage/injuries wernt bad. I watched as the guy (who ran the red light) got out and checked on the woman. Once he did that he headed east on Peoria on foot. When the light turned green I decided not to wait around to report what I saw. Instead I drove along the street the guy was running along. As he turned south on another street I figured he was going to cut thru the park and escape. I went down to 23 ave and turned right. I sat in the APS parking lot. This gave me a clear view of the park. A few minutes later the man came walking out. I grabbed my base ball bat and confronted him. I told him I saw the whole thing. He spoke to me in spanish. I understand very little spanish so I didnt understand what he was saying. I took my bat and pointed in the direction of the emission station. We walked there. I followed behind him the whole way. Once we walked up to the emission station I told the person in charge what I witnessed and asked that he call the police. Within a few minutes DPS showed up and took him into custody. I told DPS what I witnessed at the accident and what I did to catch this guy. I then went on my way. I dont know if this guy was illegal, a citizen with a warrant or no drivers license/insurance. But there was some reason he didnt want to stick around. What I do know is over the last 18 years there has been an untold number of accidents just like this and hispanics that are involved just take off. What we do know is the hispanics that take off are doing it because they are illegal. Chances are if they are here illegally than they arent carrying car insurance either. I am not saying hispanics are bad. I am saying illegals (of all races) are not helping this country. We feel the cost of supporting them on many levels.


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> am not saying hispanics are bad. I am saying illegals (of all races) are not helping this country.


Agreed....Jan Brewer has my full support from over 1000 miles away....this is what i meant by pointing the middle finger in the "Communism" thread....stop being so politically correct and do what this country needs to get done...if that means saying "Fuck You" once and a while so be it....Jan should be considered a hero for signing this as she put her self on the line to do what needed to be done....it's a shame that doing whats truly best for the people may end her career


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Agreed....Jan Brewer has my full support from over 1000 miles away....this is what i meant by pointing the middle finger in the "Communism" thread....stop being so politically correct and do what this country needs to get done...if that means saying "Fuck You" once and a while so be it....Jan should be considered a hero for signing this as she put her self on the line to do what needed to be done....it's a shame that doing whats truly best for the people may end her career



+100

I am not sure this is going to end here career. AZ is a repub state. Goodard who I suspect will be the dem in the governors race tends to be liberal in some areas. Many in AZ are fed up with the liberalism they see in DC. If Brewer fails it will be in the primary. Others in the GOP primary support this bill. If she is really concerned about her attempt at re-election all she needs to do is get rid of the speed cameras this summer. Another very unpopular policy implemented by ex Gov Nappy who now heads up homeland security. A person in my opinion who isnt fit to secure a McDonalds playland.


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## TwinACStacks

AZ. must be THE place to live.


460,000 illegals can't be wrong....

 TWIN


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## TwinACStacks

But they could build you one HELL of a driveway!!!!

 TWIN


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## RynoAZ

Yeah, my hedges have never looked nicer.


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## tonefreak

RynoAZ said:


> Yeah, my hedges have never looked nicer.



lol...

a lot of the big farms up here use immigrants (be they legal or not, most farmers don't bother to check) as cheap labor. the people are willing to work cheap, and do the work that 'whites' (normal American's) won't stoop low enough for. except me...


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## longfxukxnhair

Just in at 5:30 ish pm AZ time. Pinal County Sheriffs deputy shot by an "illegal alien". I cant confirm at this time that it was an illegal but thats what 12 News is reporting.


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## dread1

I'm all for people trying to feed their families and give themselves an opportunity to a better life and making somewhat of a decent wage, compared to where they were born into this world, but..........

All I am asking is to join the cause and pay some friggin' taxes!!!!

Also, ask yourself what would happen to you if you were born in this country, your parents and their parents were born in this country and you driving, and pulled over with NO papers. (LICENSE, INSURANCE, REG)

You'd go to F*^%$ jail.....of course, until you could produce some sort of I.D.

I hope everybody filed their taxes on time.
So do the people who this bill is trying to get out of here..........


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## longfxukxnhair

dread1 said:


> I'm all for people trying to feed their families and give themselves an opportunity to a better life and making somewhat of a decent wage, compared to where they were born into this world, but..........
> 
> All I am asking is to join the cause and pay some friggin' taxes!!!!
> 
> Also, ask yourself what would happen to you if you were born in this country, your parents and their parents were born in this country and you driving, and pulled over with NO papers. (LICENSE, INSURANCE, REG)
> 
> You'd go to F*^%$ jail.....of course, until you could produce some sort of I.D.
> 
> I hope everybody filed their taxes on time.
> So do the people who this bill is trying to get out of here..........



All good points. No one in the media has mentioned that illegals cant go fight for this country. We have people dying in other countries for our rights and freedoms. While illegals draw on a system they dont pay into. Where I grew up we called this kind of person a mooch.


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## Marshall Mann

longfxukxnhair said:


> all good points. No one in the media has mentioned that illegals cant go fight for this country. We have people dying in other countries for our rights and freedoms. While illegals draw on a system they dont pay into. Where i grew up we called this kind of person a mooch.



+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000!!!!!!!

Man, I swore I wasnt going to post on this, but you hit a home run there LongHair!


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## longfxukxnhair

Marshall Mann said:


> +10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000!!!!!!!
> 
> Man, I swore I want going to post on this, but you hit a home run there LongHair!



Thanks. Im not wanting to offend anyone. But thats how I see it.


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## tonefreak

some people never heard that you gotta work for you're lunch...


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> Just in at 5:30 ish pm AZ time. Pinal County Sheriffs deputy shot by an "illegal alien". I cant confirm at this time that it was an illegal but thats what 12 News is reporting.




that won't happen again if they opened that rifle range i was talking about

being anti Immigration is un American....being anti illegal is Pro American
and the second any politician tells business to go elsewhere he should be impeached....i love how that Scab has no problem with worsening his states economy to support people that are illegal.....this is kinda like that Bible comment i made....using you beliefs to further one group over the nation as a whole.....nothing like saying Fuck You America....my crusade is more important than your laws.....so i will do everything in my power to change the law so it benefits a few instead of the masses....is that not Communism?


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> that won't happen again if they opened that rifle range i was talking about
> 
> being anti Immigration is un American....being anti illegal is Pro American
> and the second any politician tells business to go elsewhere he should be impeached....i love how that Scab has no problem with worsening his states economy to support people that are illegal.....this is kinda like that Bible comment i made....using you beliefs to further one group over the nation as a whole.....nothing like saying Fuck You America....my crusade is more important than your laws.....so i will do everything in my power to change the law so it benefits a few instead of the masses....is that not Communism?



I agree with you. I think that representative should be removed from office. He surely isnt living up to his oath and is bad for AZ.


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## core

I couldn't image what Mexico does to people in their country illegally. You certainly don't want to set foot in Ciudad Juarez with 10-20 murders a day you'll likely not make it back.

I'm glad they passed it. i saw a report of drug smugglers in an AK-47 firefight with an agent in the middle of AZ, not even near the border. He got hit and survived, managed to hit or kill one of them but I mean jesus christ in the middle of the state they have to deal with that shit? Pisses me off!

Hate to say it but A LOT of people here in the border states mostly make it possible for illegals to thrive. I couldn't tell you how many blonde haired blue-eyed baby's I see being pushed around in strollers by older Mexican lady's. Call it economics, racism, chance for a better life but hell do it the right way if you want to live here.


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## core

Have you guys heard some of the crazy things AG Eric Holder has been saying? He actually wanted to sue AZ for trying to pass the bill yet in a senate meeting admitted he never even read the ten page bill. What an asshole!


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## tonefreak

Every politician should be required to read every bill they pass. and if they refuse, make em do it while sitting at the business end of a 12 gauge shotgun. I often times wonder about politicians... I mean lets look at the Bill of Rights, there pretty simple, to the point, a few paragraphs long at the most... now we got bills that are 1000+ pages long going through... you think they bother reading them? I know I wouldn't. but I would vote down those 1000 pagers too. in favor of 6-8 worders. get it done right. get it done quick. don't give me any bureaucratic bull crap.


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## longfxukxnhair

core said:


> I couldn't image what Mexico does to people in their country illegally. You certainly don't want to set foot in Ciudad Juarez with 10-20 murders a day you'll likely not make it back.
> 
> I'm glad they passed it. i saw a report of drug smugglers in an AK-47 firefight with an agent in the middle of AZ, not even near the border. He got hit and survived, managed to hit or kill one of them but I mean jesus christ in the middle of the state they have to deal with that shit? Pisses me off!
> 
> Hate to say it but A LOT of people here in the border states mostly make it possible for illegals to thrive. I couldn't tell you how many blonde haired blue-eyed baby's I see being pushed around in strollers by older Mexican lady's. Call it economics, racism, chance for a better life but hell do it the right way if you want to live here.




Yep, It was about 30 minutes from me. I am bout center of state.


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## longfxukxnhair

core said:


> Have you guys heard some of the crazy things AG Eric Holder has been saying? He actually wanted to sue AZ for trying to pass the bill yet in a senate meeting admitted he never even read the ten page bill. What an asshole!



Obamas whole admin is full of whack jobs. All are liberal with communist tendencies at the very least.


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## tonefreak

I just got an email today with pics of a wash that runs between Tuscon and the Border that the Illegals use to travel between said border and town. It was trashed! backpacks, human feces, clothes, just trash everywhere... You'd think if they were so desperate to get here they'd at least clean up after themselves and try to make themselves 'wanted' by the locals and less 'wanted' by the police departments.

and then my step Grandpa's daughter replied to it and said that she had personally seen it, and actually had come across some mexican looking people (she assumed they were illegals) traveling it, the last time she was in AZ just a couple of years ago...


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## core

Mind you I got no problem if someone has to come here illegally BUT works to become a citizen AND contributes along the way. One of my good friends did that. Came here in the 70's illegally but always worked and contributed AND did a great job for the public in that he always did an honest job when someone had a car that needed bodywork or a great paint job and never cheated anyone. I think that's a great tenet of becoming an American!


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## longfxukxnhair

I have seen the paychecks of illegal aliens when I worked for a construction company. Out of a $500 check they would pay $18 in taxes and thats it. I think it was SS tax. That is very common. So they come here and avoid contributing to the system. Then they drain the system. Is it any wonder why D.C. hasnt done anything? Thats a SS tax that they know will never be claimed by illegals.


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## FLICKOFLASH

Let get this straight its more than mexicans .It is more Guatemalans & El Salvadorians ( who cross thru Mexico)


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## FLICKOFLASH

longfxukxnhair said:


> I have seen the paychecks of illegal aliens when I worked for a construction company. Out of a $500 check they would pay $18 in taxes and thats it. I think it was SS tax. That is very common. So they come here and avoid contributing to the system. Then they drain the system. Is it any wonder why D.C. hasnt done anything? Thats a SS tax that they know will never be claimed by illegals.


I been working in construction as a electrican for the last 30 years , so I have lived thru the change.Here is how it works at company I work for. They hire these imagrates as Subcontractors . One guy who is the Sub is legal. We supply the material deliver it to the job & mark out the houses. The Sub has like 6 illegals who do the work. They work from early morning till into the late evening. The house will be done in one day for a fixed price say 500.00. If we did the house working 8 hour days it take 3 legal workers 2 days at 400.00 a day labor ( 800.00) plus all the insurances the company pays. The illegals split 3 split 400.00 cash per day plus make about 200.00 cash ( per day) recycling the scrap & unused wire we provide them. the one original sub pays the taxes & never touches the job & has many crews working per day in all trades. 

So we have been without raises for 5 years & have our jobs on the line thrown at us daily

PS we have to correct all of their f ups as well.


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## FLICKOFLASH

A large portion of the $ is sent back across the border

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuA_CyUdjkE&feature=related]YouTube - $207 Million Dollars IN BEDROOM[/ame]


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## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> I been working in construction as a electrican for the last 30 years , so I have lived thru the change.Here is how it works at company I work for. They hire these imagrates as Subcontractors . One guy who is the Sub is legal. We supply the material deliver it to the job & mark out the houses. The Sub has like 6 illegals who do the work. They work from early morning till into the late evening. The house will be done in one day for a fixed price say 500.00. If we did the house working 8 hour days it take 3 legal workers 2 days at 400.00 a day labor ( 800.00) plus all the insurances the company pays. The illegals split 3 split 400.00 cash per day plus make about 200.00 cash ( per day) recycling the scrap & unused wire we provide them. the one original sub pays the taxes & never touches the job & has many crews working per day in all trades.
> 
> So we have been without raises for 5 years & have our jobs on the line thrown at us daily
> 
> PS we have to correct all of their f ups as well.




Damn! What state do you live in? Its been years since I did residential but I dont think it works like that here in AZ.


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## FLICKOFLASH

Maryland


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## Buggs.Crosby

Illegals would be lucky to make $75 a day around here


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## Buggs.Crosby

how are those guitars going?


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## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> Maryland



What part of Maryland? I lived in Baltimore for awhile. About 10 minutes from inner harbor. I worked for G&L paint and drywall.


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## tonefreak

we have some freinds who work about a 500 head dairy farm, and they use a lot of immigrant (seasonal) labor. they have had to deal with Illegals in the past, but like my Uncles says (he works on the farm), they do good work, they do the work that most white people won't do, and they do it for a lower price then most white people would do. we can't beat that." and he says, they keep just enough of their pay checks to live on, and the rest goes back to Mexico or Guatemala or wherever their from.

The unfortunate thing is that they do get government housing, and other government subsidies, even though they don't pay the same taxes that we all do...


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## Buggs.Crosby

tonefreak said:


> they do good work, they do the work that most white people won't do, and they do it for a lower price then most white people would do. we can't beat that."



That's the Welfare system working hard for your dollars.....i'm not against trying to help struggling families but the free ride shit needs to end......do that same job or lose....... their choice not mine


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## longfxukxnhair

tonefreak said:


> we have some freinds who work about a 500 head dairy farm, and they use a lot of immigrant (seasonal) labor. they have had to deal with Illegals in the past, but like my Uncles says (he works on the farm), they do good work, they do the work that most white people won't do, and they do it for a lower price then most white people would do. we can't beat that." and he says, they keep just enough of their pay checks to live on, and the rest goes back to Mexico or Guatemala or wherever their from.
> 
> The unfortunate thing is that they do get government housing, and other government subsidies, even though they don't pay the same taxes that we all do...



Many are hard workers. But the system exploits them. In a sense they are becoming slaves by their own choice. If they all came here legally this wouldnt happen. They would be protected. Business is as much part of the problem. But its a matter of which came first, the chicken or the egg. Now the problem must be dealt with. Tax payers need not be victimized by them or business any longer.


----------



## tonefreak

Buggs.Crosby said:


> That's the Welfare system working hard for your dollars.....i'm not against trying to help struggling families but the free ride shit needs to end......do that same job or lose....... their choice not mine



I have some freinds whose family has lived off the system all their lives... they live in government run housing, she works just enough to have money to buy a wii and an xbox and put gas in the cars and have lots of junk food around, but not enough to get off the system. her husband's in jail, her 20 year old son still lives with her flunked the first 2 years of HS, and skipped the 2nd 2, spends all day on the cpu and only works seasonally to have some spending money. they live comfortably, so why work any harder? They also spend a lot of time complaining that they are soo poor and don't have a nice enough car or a new enough computer or a big screen TV, and whining to the government to give it to them...

Oh yeah Long Hair, their illegal, so we can pay them way less. if they went and learned American*, and learned how to drive properly, and became a true US citizen, we would have to pay them a fair wage for their hard work. but as illegal immigrants, I see no reason not to pay them minimum wage or less for their work. 

me? I like to work for my Marshalls. there's nothing better then coming home from an honest days work under the sun at the farm, taking a shower and going downstairs and shredding on a Marshall and strat and/or les paul that I payed for with my own 2 hands. 


* I don't speak English. I speak American. English is too proper for me lol I am a redneck by choice.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

tonefreak said:


> I have some freinds whose family has lived off the system all their lives... they live in government run housing, she works just enough to have money to buy a wii and an xbox and put gas in the cars and have lots of junk food around, but not enough to get off the system. her husband's in jail, her 20 year old son still lives with her flunked the first 2 years of HS, and skipped the 2nd 2, spends all day on the cpu and only works seasonally to have some spending money. they live comfortably, so why work any harder? They also spend a lot of time complaining that they are soo poor and don't have a nice enough car or a new enough computer or a big screen TV, and whining to the government to give it to them...
> 
> Oh yeah Long Hair, their illegal, so we can pay them way less. if they went and learned American*, and learned how to drive properly, and became a true US citizen, we would have to pay them a fair wage for their hard work. but as illegal immigrants, I see no reason not to pay them minimum wage or less for their work.
> 
> me? I like to work for my Marshalls. there's nothing better then coming home from an honest days work under the sun at the farm, taking a shower and going downstairs and shredding on a Marshall and strat and/or les paul that I payed for with my own 2 hands.
> 
> 
> * I don't speak English. I speak American. English is too proper for me lol



Keep that outlook. Its our only hope if this country is to get out of its entitlement mentality


----------



## tonefreak

oh trust me. I will.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

When I was 18 I was homeless for 2 years. I worked my way out of the gutter. I refused to play the part of victim. And I had a lot of people telling me I was a victim of many things. Now when my kids piss and moan I just tell them my story. Its hard to say you have it bad when a person tells you how their Thanksgiving dinner one year was a handful of stolen York pepermint patties.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> What do you guys think of the immigration bill in AZ



I think it's a damn good idea but also think maybe it's a liitle to little a little to late but you gotta start somewhere I guess. I'm so sick of the illeagals thinking they are above our laws and demanding rights that not a damn one of them fought for in the first place. They come over abuse and fraud our people and goverment for whatever they can bleed us for and we let them do it, I don't fuk'n get it. Wake up America. They are extremely arrogant to do what they have done and are continuing to do to our country. I've seen people I know for fact are illeagal use food stamps and go to the parking lot and hop in their Escalades and Hummer's w/21's, one I saw with custom plates that read CORONAs, I mean really WTF? I live in a fairly small resort town in Co and see and hear about this shit first hand everyday. I'm in construction and have for the most part been unemployed since Oct and watch them everyday go up valley by the carload and no I'm not fucking lazy. They say they have a right to a better life and they do, but as a tax paying citizens shouldn't I have a right to a job and a life also. It makes me sick when my Grandpa, Dad , brother, uncle etc. have fought for this country and our rights only to have these fucks come over here and demand we give them rights, jobs, food and pay for their babies. Don't even get me started on the pregnent teens that are already pushing baby strollers. Ok I'm done, sorry for the rant but I do feel a little better, off to take the blood pressure meds.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

There is talk here in AZ about not issuing birth certificates to illegals who have their baby here. Its just in whispers but I think after November you will see a law like that presented. That is if the Repubs hold control


----------



## cptnkrunch

> There is talk here in AZ about not issuing birth certificates to illegals who have their baby here



That just seams like a no brainer but of course we have to be "politicaly correct" about it. I'm so not a politicaly correct person it gets me in trouble ever once in awhile.  I asked an illeagal I was working with last yr. what's up with all the babies (he had four)? His reply was, more people more jobs...well...he didn't understand more people, more jobs = a hell of a cut in pay and other repercussions to long to list. They just don't get it and don't think for a second they give a flying #@%^ about this country, because the majority of the illeagals don't, their just here for your money and the handouts. When things get bad as they are now, they can just head back to Mexico and live like kings. Meanwhile we have nowhere to go but to pick up the pieces here. I don't sound bitter about this subject do I?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> That just seams like a no brainer but of course we have to be "politicaly correct" about it. I'm so not a politicaly correct person it gets me in trouble ever once in awhile.  I asked an illeagal I was working with last yr. what's up with all the babies (he had four)? His reply was, more people more jobs...well...he didn't understand more people, more jobs = a hell of a cut in pay and other repercussions to long to list. They just don't get it and don't think for a second they give a flying #@%^ about this country, because the majority of the illeagals don't, their just here for your money and the handouts. When things get bad as they are now, they can just head back to Mexico and live like kings. Meanwhile we have nowhere to go but to pick up the pieces here. I don't sound bitter about this subject do I?



LOL
Maybe a little


----------



## cptnkrunch

> LOL
> Maybe a little



Damn't it! I try so hard not to be.


----------



## tonefreak

NOT A BIT lol. I see what you're going through up here too. in the 70's when all the Hmong people came over from Laos, a large number settled in the Appleton/Greenbay area, so we have a lot of people here who speak very little English, and can't drive to save their lives. they are however, legal, so I can't begrudge them much. they unfortunately, aren't as good of workers as the Hispanics who come up here. Green Bay has a large population of Hipanics too.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby




----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


>



LOL
So true


----------



## rjohns1

Buggs, that is priceless. Awesome.


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

longfxukxnhair said:


> What part of Maryland? I lived in Baltimore for awhile. About 10 minutes from inner harbor. I worked for G&L paint and drywall.


I work in the VA,WV,MD & PA Im in Hagerstown


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

FLICKOFLASH said:


> I been working in construction as a electrican for the last 30 years , so I have lived thru the change.Here is how it works at company I work for. They hire these imagrates as Subcontractors . One guy who is the Sub is legal. We supply the material deliver it to the job & mark out the houses. The Sub has like 6 illegals who do the work. They work from early morning till into the late evening. The house will be done in one day for a fixed price say 500.00. If we did the house working 8 hour days it take 3 legal workers 2 days at 400.00 a day labor ( 800.00) plus all the insurances the company pays. The illegals split 3 split 400.00 cash per day plus make about 200.00 cash ( per day) recycling the scrap & unused wire we provide them. the one original sub pays the taxes & never touches the job & has many crews working per day in all trades.
> 
> So we have been without raises for 5 years & have our jobs on the line thrown at us daily
> 
> PS we have to correct all of their f ups as well.


Today the job site was a literal cluster I counted 14 on just the front of the town house .We are thinking of taking a video camea & filming the madness.

Every trade on top of one another


----------



## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> I work in the VA,WV,MD & PA Im in Hagerstown



Im not sure where that is but I have heard of it. I think I lived in a area they called Dundalk? I loved Maryland. I went to Ocean City once while I was there. Very cool.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

flickoflash said:


> today the job site was a literal cluster i counted 14 on just the front of the town house .we are thinking of taking a video camea & filming the madness.
> 
> Every trade on top of one another



damn!


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

longfxukxnhair said:


> I am not looking to start shit with this thread. So lets keep it cool. Since I live in AZ I am curious to know what is being said in other states about this.


 
I don't live in Arizona (I'm in Southern California), but I can relate with Arizona's immigration issues since we share a border with Baja California, Mexico.

I fully support any state's desire to secure it's borders and protect the safety and property of it's citizen's, but I really believe that Arizona's immigration bill is poorly written (a bill that may become law by summer time unless it gets tied up in the courts, which does seem likely).

To be honest, I begin my thoughts without having read the previous comments in this thread. I do so in order to keep my thoughts clear and concentrate on my position and the position of the law makers in Arizona.

I once saw a protester with a sign that read, "What does illegal look like?" Good point here, as it goes to the heart of the racial profiling argument that opponents to the bill have raised many times. So, what does "illegal" look like? I think that is a question that AZ lawmakers forgot to address, and one which makes its current immigration bill/law poorly written one.

I also believe it is a poorly written law because it puts the safety and property of its citizens at great risk. I would rather want my police department to patrol my community looking for wanted criminals, people at large who have already established themselves as threats to the community, rather than wasting their time by stopping an individual and inquiring about their legal status. I'd rather want my police chasing down drunk drivers, arresting rapists and helping rape victims, tracking down kidnapped little kids, removing domestic abusers and helping their victims, at schools talking to kids about alternatives to gangs and drugs, and doing the so many other useful and good things that cops do, rather than stopping people to see if they are legal. The cops have better things to do than visas, greencards, and permits, so why not let them do it?

I know that Arizona is a great state and has some very good, talented, hardworking people as it's citizens, but I'm not convinced it's law makers are doing what is best for their state. I'm sure that there are many more things we can do to protect out borders, but I'm not convinced that Arizona's new bill/law is the best solution from a practical and moral standpoint. Thanks for reading.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> I don't live in Arizona (I'm in Southern California), but I can relate with Arizona's immigration issues since we share a border with Baja California, Mexico.
> 
> I fully support any state's desire to secure it's borders and protect the safety and property of it's citizen's, but I really believe that Arizona's immigration bill is poorly written (a bill that may become law by summer time unless it gets tied up in the courts, which does seem likely).
> 
> To be honest, I begin my thoughts without having read the previous comments in this thread. I do so in order to keep my thoughts clear and concentrate on my position and the position of the law makers in Arizona.
> 
> I once saw a protester with a sign that read, "What does illegal look like?" Good point here, as it goes to the heart of the racial profiling argument that opponents to the bill have raised many times. So, what does "illegal" look like? I think that is a question that AZ lawmakers forgot to address, and one which makes its current immigration bill/law poorly written one.
> 
> I also believe it is a poorly written law because it puts the safety and property of its citizens at great risk. I would rather want my police department to patrol my community looking for wanted criminals, people at large who have already established themselves as threats to the community, rather than wasting their time by stopping an individual and inquiring about their legal status. I'd rather want my police chasing down drunk drivers, arresting rapists and helping rape victims, tracking down kidnapped little kids, removing domestic abusers and helping their victims, at schools talking to kids about alternatives to gangs and drugs, and doing the so many other useful and good things that cops do, rather than stopping people to see if they are legal. The cops have better things to do than visas, greencards, and permits, so why not let them do it?
> 
> I know that Arizona is a great state and has some very good, talented, hardworking people as it's citizens, but I'm not convinced it's law makers are doing what is best for their state. I'm sure that there are many more things we can do to protect out borders, but I'm not convinced that Arizona's new bill/law is the best solution from a practical and moral standpoint. Thanks for reading.



You raise some valid points. Let me say this. The law was written to mirror federal law. Most of us have heard this by now. What you dont hear is AZ law regarding "reasonable suspicion" is set at a higher standard than the federal law. Meaning the feds need less reasonable suspicion. We live in a age now where racial profiling isnt written into law. Thankfully so. But if it is going to happen that is on the part of the officer. Many many cops across this country have racially profiled without the help of this law. We know L.A.P.D has done it countless times and other agencies as well. And it will continue across this nation. If a white Canadian with Alberta plates is pulled over and only speaks French and presents a Canadian license then I am all for the officer asking for status. That is reasonable suspicion. By law the visitor must carry their paper work at all time. Thats federal law. I am not for the abuse of civil liberties. And if that happens then I will want that part of the law fixed.
What is really sad in all of this is you have a group of people who just want a better life. Why? In the case of Mexico, its a armpit that has nothing to offer. Almost no middle class. They care so little for their people that they not only willingly but describe to them how to cross illegally. Then they get here and are exploited. Making themselves a modern day version of a slave. They get taken advantage of by mexican citizens along the way. Mexico needs to man up and do something for its people. Its so corrupt that all that matters is money. I watched Mexicos president address congress. What a bunch of horse shit. He needs to take care of his people and not concern himself with our laws. Their laws regarding illegal immigration are much tougher. 2 yrs for the first offense and 10 yrs for the second. He needs to stop exporting their poverty. And we as tax payers need to have our government do the very thing they swore an oath to, defend and protect and enforce all laws. Not just the ones they agree with. Many presidents have failed their oath to we the people.


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

Immigration Counters.com - Live Counters, News, Resources


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Mexico needs to man up and do something for its people. Its so corrupt that all that matters is money. I watched Mexicos president address congress. What a bunch of horse shit. He needs to take care of his people and not concern himself with our laws.



Bingo.....we have a winner.



> I fully support any state's desire to secure it's borders and protect the safety and property of it's citizen's, but I really believe that Arizona's immigration bill is poorly written



I agree with you on this. They could have done a much better job wording this bill. They need to focus more on the criminal aspect of it and not the racial card their playing. Odd thing is...we already have laws inact that address the immigration issue they just don't enforce them. I don't understand wasting the time on creating more laws when they don't enforce the one's we already have. I guess it give's the politicians something to do.


----------



## tbwrench

longfxukxnhair said:


> Obamas whole admin is full of whack jobs. All are liberal with communist tendencies at the very least.



Russian president Putin warned Obama about socialism and not to go down that path. When a Russian pres. has to warn a US pres. about not becoming a socialist country we are in deep doo doo.

PS for you bible scholars Russia is referred to in Hebrew as Rosh, Gog, Magog, Meshech, and Tubal in Ezekial chap 38-39 and Revelation. They are pulled into conflict with Israel by association, probably Iran or Syria. But thats another story all together.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XD2Mm3aQbs]YouTube - Rush Limbaugh - Putin Warns Obama About Socialism[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Rape suspect deported 4 times
by Associated Press
KTVB.COM
Posted on May 19, 2010 at 3:48 PM
EDMONDS, Wash. – The man accused of raping a woman behind an Edmonds grocery store has been deported at least four times in the past 15 years, reports KIRO Radio.
An officer responding to a woman's cry for help Sunday night found 46-year-old Jose Madrigal on top of the woman and arrested him.
According to court documents, the woman told police that Madrigal had followed her and offered her $35 for sex, but she said no. She said Madrigal then forced her into the bushes on the north side of the store and raped her.
Documents say Madrigal told police "Sometimes we have control in our brains, but we make mistakes." 
The 28-year-old Edmonds woman was treated at a hospital.
Snohomish County prosecutors have charged Madrigal in district court with second degree rape. He is also is being held for the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency.


This stuff goes on all over the place. In Chandler, AZ an illegal immigrant was convicted on 4 counts of rape. He was called the serial rapist and attacked little girls. Here in this country we have our fair share of sicko's. We dont need pervs from other countries coming here illegally and carrying out these kind of crimes. Not only did he commit this crime but now my tax dollars go to paying for his detention.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

American Patrol Report -- Citizenship - Sovereignty - Law


----------



## custom53

longfxukxnhair said:


> I am not looking to start shit with this thread. So lets keep it cool. Since I live in AZ I am curious to know what is being said in other states about this.



I am not trying to get flamed for this but I think EVERY state should follow suite...! The Federal Government should follow suite...! The laws ( and punishments) should be even tougher...!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

custom53 said:


> I probably will get flamed for this but I think EVERY state should follow suite...!



why flame you for that?.......Hell i'm the guy that wants to turn the border into a rifle range with free ammo for U.S citizens.....All of our borders in fact!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

the Bottom line is what's wrong with the law.....If a cop asks me who i am and i stutter and can produce no I.D i can be held till they find out who i am......i show my native side pretty well....Hell even my last name is Emanuel......though i'm Creek and Irish....go figure that one out....i used to have a line back in my school days where i would use the phrase
"I'm Irish and Indian...i will hunt you down and Fuck you up".....stayed pretty true till i got older


----------



## longfxukxnhair

custom53 said:


> I am not trying to get flamed for this but I think EVERY state should follow suite...! The Federal Government should follow suite...! The laws ( and punishments) should be even tougher...!



I think you are right. But let me say this. Our elected officials all have taken an oath. 

It is as follows:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

All officials take a oath much like this one. And it includes protecting America. They dont get to pick and choose which laws they want to enforce. But they do. And its not just Obama. This is our government. We pay for it. We are paying for their unwillingness to do what they swore to do. We dont need to be talking reform. We need enforcement! I have no problem with immigration if it is done legally.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Looks like Dora got busted at the Border


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Looks like Dora got busted at the Border



I saw that on Friday I think it was. They are getting desperate. la Raza (The Race) is starting to back off on the racist push. Seems like it is starting to backfire on them. 
On the good side, the Go-Gos have canceled their show here. They claim because of 1070. I think it was due to low sales.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Buggs.Crosby said:


> the Bottom line is what's wrong with the law.....If a cop asks me who i am and i stutter and can produce no I.D i can be held till they find out who i am......i show my native side pretty well....Hell even my last name is Emanuel......though i'm Creek and Irish....go figure that one out....i used to have a line back in my school days where i would use the phrase
> "I'm Irish and Indian...i will hunt you down and Fuck you up".....stayed pretty true till i got older



what i neglected to mention in that post is i could be one of the ones that "Would be Profiled"....cool with me....i may not look like a pure white but my ass has some long firm roots on this piece of dirt and i have nothing to hide...if it makes immigration laws work then ask me all day long


----------



## Joey Voltage

Buggs.Crosby said:


> .though i'm Creek and Irish....go figure that one out.



Either way you are still drinking in shitty bars, and playing Keno


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Joey Voltage said:


> Either way you are still drinking in shitty bars, and playing Keno



LOL....not big on bars anymore and is Keno like the Mexican version of Penny Hockey?


----------



## triftstrassa

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i think we should turn the whole border into an outdoor rifle range....free for U.S citizens of course...lol



I like your style.


I support 1070.


----------



## Joey Voltage

Buggs.Crosby said:


> LOL....not big on bars anymore and is Keno like the Mexican version of Penny Hockey?



nah, I'ts like Lotto Bingo, I was just using deductive reasoning to figure the creek irish thing out. I mean, I'm originally from the Pacific Northwest, and now Live in Boston proper.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Joey Voltage said:


> nah, I'ts like Lotto Bingo, I was just using deductive reasoning to figure the creek irish thing out. I mean, I'm originally from the Pacific Northwest, and now Live in Boston proper.



all "Proper" i see....Bruins fan i take it?


----------



## Joey Voltage

Buggs.Crosby said:


> all "Proper" i see....Bruins fan i take it?



Nah! I'm too self absorbed these days to pay attention to local sports.


----------



## Markl8

Lets see if Im from El Salvador and sneak into Mexico I will be met with machine guns from the Mexican authorities. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I have no problem with someone coming here legally to make a better life.....legally being the key word. Personally I could pass for being of latin descent even though Im am not I have no problem being asked for ID. On a routine stop you have to present ID anyway. Im also in favor of profiling if your looking for a Marshall you dont go into the Fender section do ya.......law enforcement its the same thing.

If you get caught hiring illegals $10,000.00 per head fine, second offense Joe management goes to the big house......


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> what i neglected to mention in that post is i could be one of the ones that "Would be Profiled"....cool with me....i may not look like a pure white but my ass has some long firm roots on this piece of dirt and i have nothing to hide...if it makes immigration laws work then ask me all day long



+1

Im all white and I have no problem with them asking me. Why? Because Im legal!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

triftstrassa said:


> I like your style.
> 
> 
> I support 1070.



Since you live in Phx, what do you think of all this bullshit from the other side? I am not a racist and I am tired of defending myself because I want laws enforced and my taxes to not be funneled to those who arent entitled! I am also pissed because these people can not go and fight for our way of life. They are enjoying freedoms they cant fight for. And they sure as hell wont fight to do it the legal way. Where I grew up, these people would be called a mooch and a leach!


----------



## triftstrassa

longfxukxnhair said:


> Since you live in Phx, what do you think of all this bullshit from the other side? I am not a racist and I am tired of defending myself because I want laws enforced and my taxes to not be funneled to those who arent entitled! I am also pissed because these people can not go and fight for our way of life. They are enjoying freedoms they cant fight for. And they sure as hell wont fight to do it the legal way. Where I grew up, these people would be called a mooch and a leach!



I think it comes down to people not having any first hand knowlege of how bad its gotten down here in Phoenix, together with the fact that they arent really reading the bill, but just going on what the media talking heads are telling them it says.

Reality is we need the border closed. Period.
We have not become the #1 kidnapping city in the country, and #2 in the world due to friendly strawberry pickers who just want a better life.
Our jails in maricopa country are made up of over 60% illegals.
Out of all the people caught in the US here illegally in 2009, over 50% admitted coming through Az.
Out of all the people WE caught in Az in 09 here illegally, 17% were wanted for crimes in Mexico, or repeat offenders here.
Out of the 17%, 8% were violent crimes such as rape, murder and crimes against children.

These numbers can be found by looking at our states webpages, not republican sponsered propaganda sites.

To put it politely, untill the rest of the country who is against us wants to come down here and live in this warzone, they can kiss our ass!
We in AZ didnt vote for this law by over 70% majority for any other reason than our own safety..



Can you tell Im a bit opinionated on the subject?


----------



## Marshall Mann

triftstrassa said:


> I think it comes down to people not having any first hand knowlege of how bad its gotten down here in Phoenix, together with the fact that they arent really reading the bill, but just going on what the media talking heads are telling them it says.
> 
> Reality is we need the border closed. Period.
> We have not become the #1 kidnapping city in the country, and #2 in the world due to friendly strawberry pickers who just want a better life.
> Our jails in maricopa country are made up of over 60% illegals.
> Out of all the people caught in the US here illegally in 2009, over 50% admitted coming through Az.
> Out of all the people WE caught in Az in 09 here illegally, 17% were wanted for crimes in Mexico, or repeat offenders here.
> Out of the 17%, 8% were violent crimes such as rape, murder and crimes against children.
> 
> These numbers can be found by looking at our states webpages, not republican sponsered propaganda sites.
> 
> To put it politely, untill the rest of the country who is against us wants to come down here and live in this warzone, they can kiss our ass!
> We in AZ didnt vote for this law by over 70% majority for any other reason than our own safety..
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell Im a bit opinionated on the subject?



I avoid politics on this forum when ever possible.

But that was very well put Trift!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

triftstrassa said:


> I think it comes down to people not having any first hand knowlege of how bad its gotten down here in Phoenix, together with the fact that they arent really reading the bill, but just going on what the media talking heads are telling them it says.
> 
> Reality is we need the border closed. Period.
> We have not become the #1 kidnapping city in the country, and #2 in the world due to friendly strawberry pickers who just want a better life.
> Our jails in maricopa country are made up of over 60% illegals.
> Out of all the people caught in the US here illegally in 2009, over 50% admitted coming through Az.
> Out of all the people WE caught in Az in 09 here illegally, 17% were wanted for crimes in Mexico, or repeat offenders here.
> Out of the 17%, 8% were violent crimes such as rape, murder and crimes against children.
> 
> These numbers can be found by looking at our states webpages, not republican sponsered propaganda sites.
> 
> To put it politely, untill the rest of the country who is against us wants to come down here and live in this warzone, they can kiss our ass!
> We in AZ didnt vote for this law by over 70% majority for any other reason than our own safety..
> 
> 
> 
> Can you tell Im a bit opinionated on the subject?



You and I share the same strong opinion. 

I started this thread because I wanted to know what people outside of AZ thought. I am very conscience of where I get my info. The media would have me believe you and I are in the minority in our thinking. I knew that wasnt the case. It seems like many on this forum research things and come to their own opinion. Which is a good thing if we are to return this country to the greatness it once enjoyed. I think the media has really been exposed for what it really is over the last few years. Its no longer a watch dog but a lap dog. This current issue has done more to display that and the medias inability to control us with its propaganda. Still, there are some who take the headlines at face value.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

I also like and fully support the new "Anchor Baby" law they are talking about


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> I also like and fully support the new "Anchor Baby" law they are talking about



I agree with you an that. Not likely they will openly talk about it til after the November election.

Make no mistake about it, AZ has drawn a line in the sand! I am boycotting Starbucks coffee.
I encourage all of you to do the same thing. This is my thinking. Seattle has the right to boycott who ever they want for any reason. But is a boycott like this right? It affects people outside of the government. Some who dont support SB1070 and others who do. What business is it of theres how we run the state? As long as we do it correctly and with in the frame work of both the AZ constitution and US constitution then there shouldnt be a problem. The state has the sworn duty to protect its citizens. Seattle is interfering with our rights. From what I hear a number of people have cancelled their trips to Seattle. But if we were to boycott a business (like Starbucks & Seattles Best) I would be willing to bet they would get better results out of those who run Seattle. 

I ask that not only will join me in this boycott but to email Starbucks and Seattles Best and inform them of your intentions.


Company Information Comments & Questions | Starbucks Coffee Company


Thank you


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

I’ve been hearing a lot of rhetoric, slippery slope arguments, and other logical fallacies from both sides, but it’s all just like watching a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show (come to think of it, I don’t know it there ever was a “good” episode!

Question: What is the process of enforcement when this bill becomes law in Arizona? I hear people reiterate over and again of the powers it gives local law enforcement, but no one speaks of its *provisions*? In reality, this law can do very little to change things in Arizona in regards to illegal immigrants. I know that’s a tough comment to swallow, but realize that it can only bring about the conviction of misdemeanor! That’s it. A little jail time, a little fine, but in the end they will be released! It’s true, people. It only declares that not having documentation proving legal status upon confirmation of the federal government as a misdemeanor crime. The bill/law that so many people have passionately supported really has no teeth behind it, which is why I think it’s a poorly written law: under SB1070 your local police can stop, question, detain, RELEASE (once confirmation of immigration status has been verified by federal government), and fine a person. The most important and but not most ironic component of this illegal immigration law it that Arizona does not have the power to deport, that’s the federal government’s job. People talk about how 1070 is right because it is enforcing laws that are exist in federal law, but that is not entirely true explanation of the law and how it works. Only the federal government can do what most Arizona citizens want 1070 to do, but the federal government seems reluctant to bow down to AZ. The most ironic thing about this law is that although illegal immigrants have no rights in this country (except for human rights, of course), your SB1070 is establishing rights for them by saying what it can and cannot do to them in this country! So, as I said previously, I do believe in Arizona’s right to protect the life and property of its citizens, but I do not believe it’s well written, and because it is not well written, I would not support it in any way.

I do understand the psychological game that many AZ citizens are caught having to reluctantly play: AZ citizens are being forced to defend their ways of thinking. I understand how angry AZ citizens when it seems that the entire country, if not the entire world, is condemning its ways of thinking (which is the essence behind any law that is created, repealed, or amended). It offends AZ citizens to hear others say that your laws are wrong, that you are being boycotted by private companies and politicians from other states. Even one of Arizona’s own basketball teams, the Phoenix Suns, displayed their opposition against 1070 on their May 5, 2010 home game! So, like I said, I do understand where all the frustration is coming from when I read some of the replies posted in this thread. As I said earlier, I have lived in Southern California all my life and I know how immigration affects a community (1994-California Proposition 187), but these many years on earth have taught me that it will not be an easy or quick fix. Most likely, the federal government will step in before July 28, 2010, and a compromise of some kind will be reached, which means that those who voted for it will get some, but not all of what they originally wanted out of it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> I’ve been hearing a lot of rhetoric, slippery slope arguments, and other logical fallacies from both sides, but it’s all just like watching a bad episode of the Jerry Springer show (come to think of it, I don’t know it there ever was a “good” episode!
> 
> Question: What is the process of enforcement when this bill becomes law in Arizona? I hear people reiterate over and again of the powers it gives local law enforcement, but no one speaks of its *provisions*? In reality, this law can do very little to change things in Arizona in regards to illegal immigrants. I know that’s a tough comment to swallow, but realize that it can only bring about the conviction of misdemeanor! That’s it. A little jail time, a little fine, but in the end they will be released! It’s true, people. It only declares that not having documentation proving legal status upon confirmation of the federal government as a misdemeanor crime. The bill/law that so many people have passionately supported really has no teeth behind it, which is why I think it’s a poorly written law: under SB1070 your local police can stop, question, detain, RELEASE (once confirmation of immigration status has been verified by federal government), and fine a person. The most important and but not most ironic component of this illegal immigration law it that Arizona does not have the power to deport, that’s the federal government’s job. People talk about how 1070 is right because it is enforcing laws that are exist in federal law, but that is not entirely true explanation of the law and how it works. Only the federal government can do what most Arizona citizens want 1070 to do, but the federal government seems reluctant to bow down to AZ. The most ironic thing about this law is that although illegal immigrants have no rights in this country (except for human rights, of course), your SB1070 is establishing rights for them by saying what it can and cannot do to them in this country! So, as I said previously, I do believe in Arizona’s right to protect the life and property of its citizens, but I do not believe it’s well written, and because it is not well written, I would not support it in any way.
> 
> I do understand the psychological game that many AZ citizens are caught having to reluctantly play: AZ citizens are being forced to defend their ways of thinking. I understand how angry AZ citizens when it seems that the entire country, if not the entire world, is condemning its ways of thinking (which is the essence behind any law that is created, repealed, or amended). It offends AZ citizens to hear others say that your laws are wrong, that you are being boycotted by private companies and politicians from other states. Even one of Arizona’s own basketball teams, the Phoenix Suns, displayed their opposition against 1070 on their May 5, 2010 home game! So, like I said, I do understand where all the frustration is coming from when I read some of the replies posted in this thread. As I said earlier, I have lived in Southern California all my life and I know how immigration affects a community (1994-California Proposition 187), but these many years on earth have taught me that it will not be an easy or quick fix. Most likely, the federal government will step in before July 28, 2010, and a compromise of some kind will be reached, which means that those who voted for it will get some, but not all of what they originally wanted out of it.



The federal government cant step in. The best they can do is challenge it on legality. Which they will. It is likely that I.C.E. will not do what they are suppose to do. Take the illegal immigrants. This is a matter of states rights. And since AZ doesnt create a new immigration policy AZ will be allowed to enforce it. Congress could pass immigration reform and I am sure that would change some of the laws. But that isnt likely to happen this year. I think this bill has put egg on Washingtons face. Has drawn them into a topic they didnt want to touch yet. It has shown that a majority (over 51%) of the people are against amnesty. Just like they were a few years ago. This topic is a thorn in the sides of both parties. But considering Obama said he would address immigration reform in his first year (which he didnt do) I think it will come back to hurt him and the party a little bit more.

What this new law does is it makes the illegals uneasy. While federal law dictates that it is a felony and AZ doesnt there must be some logic behind this that I am unaware of.

I think this bill will help but its not the cure. Businesses need to be targeted and hard. Huge fines for first time offenders. The kind of fines that really hurt a bottom line enough that hiring illegals isnt worth the risk. Jail for repeat offenders. More needs to be done. 
At least the first step has been taken.


----------



## triftstrassa

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> In reality, this law can do very little to change things in Arizona in regards to illegal immigrants. I know that’s a tough comment to swallow, but realize that it can only bring about the conviction of misdemeanor! That’s it. A little jail time, a little fine, but in the end they will be released! It’s true, people. It only declares that not having documentation proving legal status upon confirmation of the federal government as a misdemeanor crime. The bill/law that so many people have passionately supported really has no teeth behind it, which is why I think it’s a poorly written law: under SB1070 your local police can stop, question, detain, RELEASE (once confirmation of immigration status has been verified by federal government), and fine a person. The most important and but not most ironic component of this illegal immigration law it that Arizona does not have the power to deport, that’s the federal government’s job. People talk about how 1070 is right because it is enforcing laws that are exist in federal law, but that is not entirely true explanation of the law and how it works. Only the federal government can do what most Arizona citizens want 1070 to do, but the federal government seems reluctant to bow down to AZ. The most ironic thing about this law is that although illegal immigrants have no rights in this country (except for human rights, of course), your SB1070 is establishing rights for them by saying what it can and cannot do to them in this country! So, as I said previously, I do believe in Arizona’s right to protect the life and property of its citizens, but I do not believe it’s well written, and because it is not well written, I would not support it in any way.
> 
> I do understand the psychological game that many AZ citizens are caught having to reluctantly play: AZ citizens are being forced to defend their ways of thinking. I understand how angry AZ citizens when it seems that the entire country, if not the entire world, is condemning its ways of thinking (which is the essence behind any law that is created, repealed, or amended). It offends AZ citizens to hear others say that your laws are wrong, that you are being boycotted by private companies and politicians from other states. Even one of Arizona’s own basketball teams, the Phoenix Suns, displayed their opposition against 1070 on their May 5, 2010 home game! So, like I said, I do understand where all the frustration is coming from when I read some of the replies posted in this thread. As I said earlier, I have lived in Southern California all my life and I know how immigration affects a community (1994-California Proposition 187), but these many years on earth have taught me that it will not be an easy or quick fix. Most likely, the federal government will step in before July 28, 2010, and a compromise of some kind will be reached, which means that those who voted for it will get some, but not all of what they originally wanted out of it.


Do yourself a favor and read the bill.
If your an illegal, you get deported, not jailed and released. Arizona deports on a daily basis.
It never ceases to amaze me how someone can have so much to say about something they clearly havent researched.
Im glad you dont support it, as I would think that anyone who lives in socal would clearly be under siege, or the enemy to the thinking that made AZ government feel they need to enforce the federal law.

The whole idea here, is to NOT end up like socal.


----------



## triftstrassa

longfxukxnhair said:


> I think this bill will help but its not the cure. Businesses need to be targeted and hard. Huge fines for first time offenders. The kind of fines that really hurt a bottom line enough that hiring illegals isnt worth the risk. Jail for repeat offenders. More needs to be done.
> At least the first step has been taken.



Thats just it. Its not a cure, its a start.
It did exactly what is needed.
Put fear into those who come here illegally, and make the nation stand up and take notice of our situation.

The liberal mentallity tends to feel that its racist, or its just to hard of a struggle to do anything so the best bet is to do nothing.
Lucky for us, our local government doesnt feel the same way.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

triftstrassa said:


> Thats just it. Its not a cure, its a start.
> It did exactly what is needed.
> Put fear into those who come here illegally, and make the nation stand up and take notice of our situation.
> 
> The liberal mentallity tends to feel that its racist, or its just to hard of a struggle to do anything so the best bet is to do nothing.
> Lucky for us, our local government doesnt feel the same way.



+100000

As we know AZ leans Repub. Cal has been for decades a bastion for liberalism regardless who is in control. Arnold is another of many who have fallen prey to piss poor liberal economics and policies. Liberalism believes in the state can provide for all. "The Great Society" As Dewey called it in his 1927 book "The Public and its Problems". Richard Goodwin explained that the state is to give meaning to individuals. Here in lies the problem with current liberalism. The thinking is so far outside of normal thinking. That a few know whats best for the many. That social justice is better than equal justice. Which brings me to my point. Not enforcing our immigration laws is a matter of social justice. While others stand in line to do it correctly those (in this case mostly hispanics) who did it illegally must be allowed to do so because of their skin color? Or the fear of breaking up families? Families wouldnt need to be broken up if laws were obeyed. America needs to stop issuing birth certificates to those who break our laws and have their babies in our country. Thats like a cop chasing you for speeding and you make it to your house before he catches you. You arent free of your crime and you shouldnt be rewarded for it either.


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## longfxukxnhair

Here is an example of liberal economic policies. If this passes in CA how long before their econ collapses completely?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkmRIv-h1GU&playnext_from=TL&videos=Xzv5RsRtUQ4]YouTube - Insane law proposals in California[/ame]


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## longfxukxnhair

I just saw Pearce on TV talking about the anchor baby. WOW! I cant believe he is addressing this now.


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> +100000
> 
> As we know AZ leans Repub. Cal has been for decades a bastion for liberalism regardless who is in control. Arnold is another of many who have fallen prey to piss poor liberal economics and policies. Liberalism believes in the state can provide for all. "The Great Society" As Dewey called it in his 1927 book "The Public and its Problems". Richard Goodwin explained that the state is to give meaning to individuals. Here in lies the problem with current liberalism. The thinking is so far outside of normal thinking. That a few know whats best for the many. That social justice is better than equal justice. Which brings me to my point. Not enforcing our immigration laws is a matter of social justice. While others stand in line to do it correctly those (in this case mostly hispanics) who did it illegally must be allowed to do so because of their skin color? Or the fear of breaking up families? Families wouldnt need to be broken up if laws were obeyed. America needs to stop issuing birth certificates to those who break our laws and have their babies in our country. Thats like a cop chasing you for speeding and you make it to your house before he catches you. You arent free of your crime and you shouldnt be rewarded for it either.



i am more of a Liberal then i will ever be a Con....and i am all for Immigration control...so i guess that blows that theory....more proof....you last Governor now works for Obama....she was a Con that also fought with Bush for some form of help.....What is she doing now?....what did that Con Bush do? ....maybe Sarah Palin could help.....i'm sure with her on board that we would be deporting the illegals right back to New Mexico where they came from.....not to mention isn't it the Cons that don't want big Government?......drill now they said.....now they are blaming the government for not being prepared for the spill in the Gulf.........Pathetic.....give me what i want or I'll pout fucking mentality


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i am more of a Liberal then i will ever be a Con....and i am all for Immigration control...so i guess that blows that theory....more proof....you last Governor now works for Obama....she was a Con that also fought with Bush for some form of help.....What is she doing now?....what did that Con Bush do? ....maybe Sarah Palin could help.....i'm sure with her on board that we would be deporting the illegals right back to New Mexico where they came from.....not to mention isn't it the Cons that don't want big Government?......drill now they said.....now they are blaming the government for not being prepared for the spill in the Gulf.........Pathetic.....give me what i want or I'll pout fucking mentality



I think socially you may be a liberal. I doubt you are a true liberal. I am a libertarian with liberal social tendencies and fiscal conservative tendencies. Gov Nappy was in no way a con. The fighting she did was against a president from a different party. Which is typical. She was a big spender and constitutions mean nothing to her. What she is doing now is very little. She isnt fit to secure a McDonalds playland. While I think Palin is hot, thats where I draw the line.
True liberalism is a off shoot of progressivism which has roots in communism. I seriously doubt that is you Buggs.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

but thats my point....you blame this one or that one using term like liberal or con....not many full breeds of either party left.....sadly with all the Gimme Gimme corruption nothing will ever be done to get this country back on its feet


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> but thats my point....you blame this one or that one using term like liberal or con....not many full breeds of either party left.....sadly with all the Gimme Gimme corruption nothing will ever be done to get this country back on its feet



The problem is many things. The progressives/liberals have hijacked the Dems. Then you have conservatives who belong in the repub party but neocons have rooted into that. Our founding fathers were "classic liberals" but are now painted as conservatives. I believe there are more true liberals than there are true conservatives. But a recent poll showed that conservatives out number liberals in America 2 to 1. I find that hard to believe. I am currently reading a number of books on liberalism. Scary stuff. Neocons are just as bad. Bush ran as a conservative. History will show he was anything but. He was a neocon like his dad. Regardless of what any one thinks of labels, states that have greater liberal influence are in greater fiscal troubles. CA is a current example. NJ is to but I dont need to tell you that. It has reached a point that both parties are different wings of the same bird. America is about equal opportunity for the citizens. Not equal outcome. The current immigration problem only proves that. While many do it the legal way many more dont. And we are being told to just let them be by some.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

there has been nothing liberal in Jersey politics since Mcgreevey resigned....so what if he was gay....dude had us moving in a better direction....now we are sinking again


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> there has been nothing liberal in Jersey politics since Mcgreevey resigned....so what if he was gay....dude had us moving in a better direction....now we are sinking again



There is much corruption in NJ politics. But that happens in every state. The problem i refer to is unions. Before I go on, allow me to say I am union. Local 86. But unions in AZ are much weaker than unions in the east. As you know unions have a strong showing in Jersey. Very powerful. Corzine, Yes, he could have done more. A clue to the governor’s true feelings came when he attended a labor rally during his first year in office to cheer on the state workers. He also showed the judgment of a hormone-soaked high school kid when he romanced Carla Katz, the leader of the state’s largest union local. Unions have a great deal of support from democrats. I remember when Obama was running my union was sending me stuff on him trying to get me to support him. On the top it may not look like liberalism plays a part in NJ politics. But if you have any doubt that its not an influence then look at the current political state of mind of unions. SEIU's Andy Stern is a current example of this. The auto workes union as well. Any state that has its politics influenced by unions will find itself with liberal tendencies. I am not saying unions are bad or those who join are liberals. But those at the top of the union power structure tend to be liberal in political nature. At at the end of the day they will support a liberal leader. Chris Christie won not because people want to break the backs of the union. But enough people didnt like the direction NJ was going in. NJ has been a swing state. But has democrat leanings for a number of decades nationally. The Governorship has alternated between the 2 major parties since the election of Democrat Richard J. Hughes in 1961. Regardless of this there can be no doubt the part unions play in NJ politics. Just like Scott Brown in Mass. He isnt a true conservative. He is conservative by Mass definition.


----------



## cptnkrunch

I'm think'n it could be to late.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I'm think'n it could be to late.



There is nothing wrong with that. Showing pride is one thing. Breaking laws is another.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> There is nothing wrong with that.
> Yesterday 11:20 PM



Oh, I know, just my twisted sense of humor. I'm not a racist and as a matter of fact my oldest daughter is 1/2 latino so.............. I really only have a problem with the illegals that think we owe them something which seems to be alot of them.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Oh, I know, just my twisted sense of humor. I'm not a racist and as a matter of fact my oldest daughter is 1/2 latino so.............. I really only have a problem with the illegals that think we owe them something which seems to be alot of them.



That is the problem. They break the law by coming here illegally and then think we/this country owes them.


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

triftstrassa said:


> Do yourself a favor and read the bill.
> If your an illegal, you get deported, not jailed and released. Arizona deports on a daily basis.
> It never ceases to amaze me how someone can have so much to say about something they clearly havent researched.
> Im glad you dont support it, as I would think that anyone who lives in socal would clearly be under siege, or the enemy to the thinking that made AZ government feel they need to enforce the federal law.
> 
> The whole idea here, is to NOT end up like socal.


 
What, you, "Trift," think I didn't read SB1070? (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf). Your first mistake, Trift, in reply, is that you should not assume the experience or inexperience of others (i.e. that I didn't take time to read your state's law). I read it before I posted anything (I supplied a link of the actual law for you), and nowhere does it way that Arizona deports illegal immigrant (your quote: "Arizona deports on a daily basis") because your state doesn't have that right (it never has and it never will). Your law says that it will do exactly as I originally stated! See page 1 line 27-36 of the actual document (not the pdf number). You get arrested, detained in jail, released (once the federal government has verified your illegal status) into the custody of the federal government for deportation, fined, etc. Another link for you: (Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) that serves as more of a summary of the first link (the actual law).

And WTF is up with "the enemy" quote! Using these types of war metaphors smacks of militant thinking (not a good thing). Like I said before, I know where this comes from. It comes from the fact that AZ legislators and supporters of 1070 have been under national and international attack for their ways of thinking (I said previously that ways of thinking is the catalyst for laws that are created, amended, and repealed). I doubt I ever presented myself as an enemy, so I know that it's the media and various commentary that is contrary to 1070 that riles you (trust me, if I deemed you my enemy, you'd know it).

You, Trift, need to read my past posts. I stated my location as proof that I know what AZ citizens are going through in regards to the many facets of the illegal immigration issue. We, in 1994 had to deal with the same controvery regarding a controversial law (proposition 187), so, while it is a different law in nature when compared to 1070, it still goes to the heart of illegal immigration, and thus makes me very aware. I sympathize with AZ citizens and do support it's citizen's right to receive protection of life and property from it's state and federal government. I only disagree with how your law 1070 is written. I know you and others are angry because of the illegal immigration problem in your state, but you are mistaking bad legislation for good because of this anger. You may think that not voting for it or something like it was a sign complacency, validation for illegal immigration, support entitlement to illegals, support granting amnesty, and for just plain "being soft." I'm sorry, but you are misinformed if you believe any of this rhetoric. I've seen well written laws and poorly written laws, and your 1070 is poorly written.

I like laws, especially those that are well written and can't be challenged by some defense attorney to get a criminal off, or laws that are poorly written only to be challenged by the federal government and rulled unconstitutional (all that hard work down the drain, which is what will happen with 1070 Justice Department Says Arizona Immigration Law is Unconstitutional - ABC News). I see that Obama has sent the national guard down to Arizona Obama Authorizes Deployment of National Guard Along Southwest Border - ABC News. Why do you think that is? It's part as an answer for assistance, and part political move. He is going to support a challenge to 1070, but will not entirely leave AZ cried for help unheard. Put two and two together and you'll get it too. 

So, you see, I do read and do my homework...maybe too much!


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i am more of a Liberal then i will ever be a Con....and i am all for Immigration control...so i guess that blows that theory....more proof....you last Governor now works for Obama....she was a Con that also fought with Bush for some form of help.....What is she doing now?....what did that Con Bush do? ....maybe Sarah Palin could help.....i'm sure with her on board that we would be deporting the illegals right back to New Mexico where they came from.....not to mention isn't it the Cons that don't want big Government?......drill now they said.....now they are blaming the government for not being prepared for the spill in the Gulf.........Pathetic.....give me what i want or I'll pout fucking mentality


 
*in response to the partially highlighted sentence in red: HUH?


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

triftstrassa said:


> I like your style.
> 
> 
> I support 1070.


 
*_unfortunatley, the quote of a quote feature failed me (I gotta learn how to use this), but I was replying to Trift's comment on Bugg's shooting range comment located in the next post below_. 

I assume this is how you truly think and feel (i.e. killing in that manner). Says a lot, don't you think?


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

Buggs.Crosby said:


> why flame you for that?.......Hell i'm the guy that wants to turn the border into a rifle range with free ammo for U.S citizens.....All of our borders in fact!


 
I assume you are being serious and that this is how you truly feel?
In light of this comment, do you see how and why there is national and international outrage over this topic? The law brings about negative comments like this that go way overboard. You may not like the idea of censure, but it doesn't make comments like this right. Obviously, the internet shields you somewhat (thought the internet is sparking a whole new way of rethinking and applying existing law, in addition to the creation of new laws), but shouldn't thought of as having the ability to say whatever you want. If you were a politician or even had some kind of high profile job, you would be cruxified by the media (even if it were done in jest); I've seen this happened before. True, you'd still have your freedom of speech to protect you, but I guess I am appealing to a moral sensitility. By saying things like this, all you are doing is fueling the flames of rage, not doing anything to fix the illegal immigration problem. 

Like I said before, I support AZ's citizens right to protection of life and property from its state and local government, but not through 1070, and certainly not with Bugg's comments. Buggs, you've been around the forum for quite awhile (a fact that goes beyond a the number of posts you've contributed) and I know from this experience that you usually make a lot of sense, displayed great knowledge and hospitality, have had a great sensibility and understanding for the intantigle, but I feel for the first time a great sense of disappointment and regret. I can't stop people from saying writing what they want (nor would I ever want that power), but I think that your comment is enough for me to bow out of this thread (an act that I'm sure will hardly matter). Good luck with all.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

This 5 minute speech says it all. What he is saying is true.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ldx8gZDwZWs]YouTube - Response to President Calderon[/ame]


----------



## triftstrassa

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> What, you, "Trift," think I didn't read SB1070? (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf). Your first mistake, Trift, in reply, is that you should not assume the experience or inexperience of others (i.e. that I didn't take time to read your state's law). I read it before I posted anything (I supplied a link of the actual law for you), and nowhere does it way that Arizona deports illegal immigrant (your quote: "Arizona deports on a daily basis") because your state doesn't have that right (it never has and it never will). Your law says that it will do exactly as I originally stated! See page 1 line 27-36 of the actual document (not the pdf number). You get arrested, detained in jail, released (once the federal government has verified your illegal status) into the custody of the federal government for deportation, fined, etc. Another link for you: (Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) that serves as more of a summary of the first link (the actual law).
> 
> And WTF is up with "the enemy" quote! Using these types of war metaphors smacks of militant thinking (not a good thing). Like I said before, I know where this comes from. It comes from the fact that AZ legislators and supporters of 1070 have been under national and international attack for their ways of thinking (I said previously that ways of thinking is the catalyst for laws that are created, amended, and repealed). I doubt I ever presented myself as an enemy, so I know that it's the media and various commentary that is contrary to 1070 that riles you (trust me, if I deemed you my enemy, you'd know it).
> 
> You, Trift, need to read my past posts. I stated my location as proof that I know what AZ citizens are going through in regards to the many facets of the illegal immigration issue. We, in 1994 had to deal with the same controvery regarding a controversial law (proposition 187), so, while it is a different law in nature when compared to 1070, it still goes to the heart of illegal immigration, and thus makes me very aware. I sympathize with AZ citizens and do support it's citizen's right to receive protection of life and property from it's state and federal government. I only disagree with how your law 1070 is written. I know you and others are angry because of the illegal immigration problem in your state, but you are mistaking bad legislation for good because of this anger. You may think that not voting for it or something like it was a sign complacency, validation for illegal immigration, support entitlement to illegals, support granting amnesty, and for just plain "being soft." I'm sorry, but you are misinformed if you believe any of this rhetoric. I've seen well written laws and poorly written laws, and your 1070 is poorly written.
> 
> I like laws, especially those that are well written and can't be challenged by some defense attorney to get a criminal off, or laws that are poorly written only to be challenged by the federal government and rulled unconstitutional (all that hard work down the drain, which is what will happen with 1070 Justice Department Says Arizona Immigration Law is Unconstitutional - ABC News). I see that Obama has sent the national guard down to Arizona Obama Authorizes Deployment of National Guard Along Southwest Border - ABC News. Why do you think that is? It's part as an answer for assistance, and part political move. He is going to support a challenge to 1070, but will not entirely leave AZ cried for help unheard. Put two and two together and you'll get it too.
> 
> So, you see, I do read and do my homework...maybe too much!



Sweet.
Another book of a post, and still wrong when it comes to the law.
We deport on a daily basis here. 
Perhaps next time you read the 1070 bill, do it without the mentallity that its wrong, and you are undoubtedly right about everything.

You live in socal, you are NOT in AZ, you DO NOT have the right to decide what is good for AZ citizens and what we voted for, no matter how much you think you do. Please see paragraph 1.

I love the liberal mentallity. "Im right, all of you who voted for this in a state where I dont live are wrong"

Hey save yourself the 300 word essay about your personal feelings and what you do and dont stand for, and deal with the facts of whats happening to MY state.
I pray it never ends up like socal where your form of problem solving seems to have worked so well.

As for the comment made by some one in jest about guarding the border as a two way rifle range I can only add,
It was his statement, and I found it funny.
But unlike you, Ive actually stood on a border, with a gun, and its sad how I was paid to defend other countries where border laws were stronger than our own.
We are the only world power that has open borders, and I blame that on the big business, corrupt politicians, and people like you.


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time


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## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time



Thats scary. I have been paying attention to that for the last 9 months.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> I assume you are being serious and that this is how you truly feel?
> In light of this comment, do you see how and why there is national and international outrage over this topic? The law brings about negative comments like this that go way overboard. You may not like the idea of censure, but it doesn't make comments like this right. Obviously, the internet shields you somewhat (thought the internet is sparking a whole new way of rethinking and applying existing law, in addition to the creation of new laws), but shouldn't thought of as having the ability to say whatever you want. If you were a politician or even had some kind of high profile job, you would be cruxified by the media (even if it were done in jest); I've seen this happened before. True, you'd still have your freedom of speech to protect you, but I guess I am appealing to a moral sensitility. By saying things like this, all you are doing is fueling the flames of rage, not doing anything to fix the illegal immigration problem.
> 
> Like I said before, I support AZ's citizens right to protection of life and property from its state and local government, but not through 1070, and certainly not with Bugg's comments. Buggs, you've been around the forum for quite awhile (a fact that goes beyond a the number of posts you've contributed) and I know from this experience that you usually make a lot of sense, displayed great knowledge and hospitality, have had a great sensibility and understanding for the intantigle, but I feel for the first time a great sense of disappointment and regret. I can't stop people from saying writing what they want (nor would I ever want that power), but I think that your comment is enough for me to bow out of this thread (an act that I'm sure will hardly matter). Good luck with all.


 Well.....call me a hillbilly but I'm with Buggs on this one, screw em. I'm tired of their BS and so are a lot of others. They are bankrupting states and abusing our country's system and we stand around and watch them do it because we have to be nice and politicaly correct? I for one am sick of giving them a free ride and still have them give us the finger and demand more and more. You have to draw the line somewhere and enough is enough is enough. How polite do we have to be to these people? It's not our fault their country's screwed but it's easier for them to walk away, come over here and get all the nice american folks to pay their way because they don't have the balls to fix their own crap. I think their cowards and calling BS on this one! 
Midway,
This is by no means a personal atack on you and please don't take it that way. I've read your post and know how you feel and agree with you,it was a very poorly written bill. I and many others are just very tired of their take, take and no give attitude. We don't need them here putting millions of tax paying americans out of work and still wanting us to support them on top of it. Are all illegals like this? NO, but alot are, seem to think we owe them something and their arrogance about it makes me sick. I've always been one to help people but why help people that will not help themselves to anything except my money. I'm not a racist and I really hate to talk politics but this issue is very close to me and hard to watch. I am a paint contractor one of the harder hit trades by the illegals and have been in construction for 32 yrs and can't even buy a job where I live but plenty of illegals still working here. I have a family to provide for, get NO help from the gov, have no medical insurance and can collect no unemployment nor do I want to, I d rather be working. I do know for fact I would have work if it wasn't for all the illegals that have flooded the valley I live in. I have been selling things I own to make bills, currently have a for sale sign in my front yard and loosing a house that I have worked very hard for. Not looking for sympathy but a little flipp'n understanding from my gov and the people of this country wouldn't hurt about now. So if they want to keep pushing the issue on us I'm all for border target practice. No love lost here. Sorry if I offended anyone but this is how I feel about it. 
I may just load up the family, put a burrito on my anttena and drive north until someone stops me and say's "what is that?" and call that home.


----------



## triftstrassa

cptnkrunch said:


> Well.....call me a hillbilly but I'm with Buggs on this one, screw em. I'm tired of their BS and so are a lot of others. They are bankrupting states and abusing our country's system and we stand around and watch them do it because we have to be nice and politicaly correct? I for one am sick of giving them a free ride and still have them give us the finger and demand more and more. You have to draw the line somewhere and enough is enough is enough. How polite do we have to be to these people? It's not our fault their country's screwed but it's easier for them to walk away, come over here and get all the nice american folks to pay their way because they don't have the balls to fix their own crap. I think their cowards and calling BS on this one!
> Midway,
> This is by no means a personal atack on you and please don't take it that way. I've read your post and know how you feel and agree with you,it was a very poorly written bill. I and many others are just very tired of their take, take and no give attitude. We don't need them here putting millions of tax paying americans out of work and still wanting us to support them on top of it. Are all illegals like this? NO, but alot are, seem to think we owe them something and their arrogance about it makes me sick. I've always been one to help people but why help people that will not help themselves to anything except my money. I'm not a racist and I really hate to talk politics but this issue is very close to me and hard to watch. I am a paint contractor one of the harder hit trades by the illegals and have been in construction for 32 yrs and can't even buy a job where I live but plenty of illegals still working here. I have a family to provide for, get NO help from the gov, have no medical insurance and can collect no unemployment nor do I want to, I d rather be working. I do know for fact I would have work if it wasn't for all the illegals that have flooded the valley I live in. I have been selling things I own to make bills, currently have a for sale sign in my front yard and loosing a house that I have worked very hard for. Not looking for sympathy but a little flipp'n understanding from my gov and the people of this country wouldn't hurt about now. So if they want to keep pushing the issue on us I'm all for border target practice. No love lost here. Sorry if I offended anyone but this is how I feel about it.
> I may just load up the family, put a burrito on my anttena and drive north until someone stops me and say's "what is that?" and call that home.



Well said.
I wish liberals would stop pandering to illegals and start helping our own countrymen.
How much money and help would have come from rev Al, shakira, and all the rest of these so called stars if they would be working to empower the US economy, not back those who wish to destroy it?


Good luck on getting work, and keep your head up.
You are not alone.
I too am a Paint contractor here in AZ so I got hit hard by the illegal wave as well. 
Small world.


----------



## cptnkrunch

trifts, 
Thnx for the thought. Yep, heads up just trying to troop thru it all. Tough times that alot of us are going thru right now. Hey, If all the illegals leave AZ and come up here to Co., can I come down there and work for you?


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> trifts,
> Thnx for the thought. Yep, heads up just trying to troop thru it all. Tough times that alot of us are going thru right now. Hey, If all the illegals leave AZ and come up here to Co., can I come down there and work for you?



You a painter too Capt? When I started painting 25 yrs ago the illegals did the landscape work and that was it. Now they have rooted themselves into every trade.


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## longfxukxnhair

TULTITLAN, Mexico - Arizona's new law directing local police to take a greater role in enforcing immigration rules has brought a lot of criticism from Mexico, the largest source of illegal immigrants in the United States. But, in Mexico, undocumented immigrants say they suffer even worse treatment from corrupt authorities.

"There (in the United States), they'll deport you," Hector Vázquez, an undocumented immigrant from Honduras, said as he rested in a makeshift camp with other migrants under a highway bridge in Tultitlan. "In Mexico, they'll probably let you go, but they'll beat you up and steal everything you've got first."


Mexican authorities have harshly criticized Arizona over Senate Bill 1070, which makes it a state crime to be in the country illegally. It states that an officer engaged in a lawful stop, detention or arrest shall, when practicable, ask about a person's legal status when reasonable suspicion exists that the person is in the U.S. illegally.

"(The law) violates inalienable human rights," the Mexican Foreign Ministry says.

Meanwhile, Mexican police freely engage in racial profiling, harassing Central American migrants while ignoring thousands of American retirees living illegally in Mexico, immigration experts say.

Mexico already has an Arizona-style statute requiring local police to check IDs. That clause has fed an epidemic of kidnappings, rapes and other atrocities against migrants because victims are afraid to talk to police, Mexico's National Human Rights Commission says. A bill eliminating the rule has been stalled in the Mexican Senate since March.

Mexican officials say they've been trying to improve treatment of immigrants by softening some of the most restrictive parts of Mexico's immigration law since 2008.

"We are trying to write a new story (regarding) immigrants, especially coming from Central American countries," Mexican President Felipe Calderón told CNN last week.

But human-rights activists say abuses have continued unabated.

"The Mexican government should probably clean up its own house before looking at someone else's," said Melissa Vertíz, spokeswoman for the Fray Matías de Córdova Human Rights Center in Tapachula, Mexico.

Dangerous territory

In one six-month period from September 2008 to February 2009, at least 9,758 migrants were kidnapped and held for ransom in Mexico, 91 of them with the direct participation of Mexican police, a report by the National Human Rights Commission says. Other migrants are routinely stopped and shaken down for bribes, it says.

A separate survey conducted during one month in 2008 at 10 migrant shelters showed Mexican authorities were behind migrant attacks in 35 of 240 cases, or 15 percent. Most of the abuses against migrants are committed by gangs and migrant smugglers.

Most migrants in Mexico are Central Americans passing through on their way to the United States, human-rights groups say. Others are Guatemalans who live and work along Mexico's southern border, mainly as farmworkers, maids, or in bars and restaurants.

One of the largest populations of illegal migrants in Mexico is made up of American retirees who enter as tourists, then overstay their visas, said Patricia de los Rios, director of the migrant-affairs program at Iberoamerican University in Mexico City. Some Americans even work in Mexico illegally, giving English lessons, running tourism-related businesses or telecommuting.

"The biggest population of foreigners here is Americans, and an important percentage of them live here without documents," de los Rios said. "There, we see racism in reverse, because if you have an American accent and are light-skinned . . . the (police) are not going to treat you the same as if you look Honduran."

Last year, 63,215 of the 67,282 undocumented migrants detained by Mexican authorities, or about 94 percent, were from four impoverished Central American countries: Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras and El Salvador. Only 836 detainees, or about 1 percent, were from the United States.

The Central American migrants headed to the United States travel mainly on freight trains, stopping to rest and beg for food at rail crossings like the one in Tultitlan, an industrial suburb of Mexico City.

On a recent afternoon, Victor Manuel Beltrán Rodríguez of Managua, Nicaragua, trudged among the cars at a stop light, his hand outstretched.

"Can you give me a peso? I'm from Nicaragua," he said. Every 10 cars or so, a motorist would roll down the window and hand him a few coins. Within a half-hour, he had collected 10 pesos, about 80 U.S. cents, enough for a taco.

Beltrán Rodríguez had arrived in Mexico with 950 pesos, about $76, enough to last him to the U.S. border.

But near Tierra Blanca, Veracruz, he said municipal police had detained him, driven him to a deserted road and taken all his money. He had been surviving by begging.

Defying change

Abuses by Mexican authorities have persisted even as Mexico has relaxed its rules against illegal immigrants in recent years.

In 2008, the Mexican government softened the punishment for undocumented migrants, from a maximum 10 years in prison to a maximum fine of $461. Most detainees are simply taken to detention centers and put on buses for home.

Mexican law calls for six to 12 years of prison and up to $46,000 in fines for anyone who shelters or transports illegal immigrants, but the nation's Supreme Court ruled in March 2008 that the law applies only to people who do it for money.

For years, the Mexican government has allowed charity groups to openly operate migrant shelters, where travelers can rest for a few days on their journey north. The government also has a special unit of immigration agents, known as Grupo Beta, that patrols the countryside in orange pickup trucks, helping immigrants who are in trouble.

At the same time, however, Article 67 of Mexico's immigration law requires that all authorities, "whether federal, local or municipal," demand to see visas if approached by a foreigner, and to hand over any undocumented migrants to immigration authorities.

"In effect, this means that migrants who suffer crimes, including kidnapping, prefer not to report them to avoid . . . being detained by immigration authorities and returned to their country," the National Human Rights Commission said in a report last year.

As a result, the clause has strengthened gangs who abuse migrants.

"That Article 67 is an obstacle that urgently has to be removed," said Alberto Herrera, executive director of Amnesty International Mexico. "It has worsened this vicious cycle of abuse and impunity, and the same thing could happen (in Arizona)."

A bill passed by the Mexican Senate on Oct. 6 would eliminate the ID requirement in Article 67 and replace it with language saying, "No attention in matters of human rights or the provision of justice shall be denied or restricted on any level (of government) to foreigners who require it, regardless of their migration status."

The Mexican House of Representatives approved a similar measure on March 16 but added a clause requiring the government to set aside funds to take care of foreigners during times of disaster. The revised bill has been stuck in the Senate's Population and Development Committee since then.

To discourage migrants from speaking out about abuse, Mexican authorities often tell detainees they will have to stay longer in detention centers if they file a complaint, said Vertíz, of the Human Rights Center.

A March 2007 order allows Mexican immigration agents to give "humanitarian visas" to migrants who have suffered crimes in Mexico.

But the amnesty is not automatic, and most migrants don't know to ask for it, the commission said.


A article in todays Az Republic.


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## cptnkrunch

> You a painter too Capt? When I started painting 25 yrs ago the illegals did the landscape work and that was it. Now they have rooted themselves into every trade.
> Today 01:49 AM


 Yes, me be a painter going on 27 yrs now. I grew up in Phoenix in the 70's and 80's, Dad owned a consruction co. and we had one legal latino that worked for us. Illegals were not an issue then, even though Az sits next to the border. I highly doubt that would be the case now.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Yes, me be a painter going on 27 yrs now. I grew up in Phoenix in the 70's and 80's, Dad owned a consruction co. and we had one legal latino that worked for us. Illegals were not an issue then, even though Az sits next to the border. I highly doubt that would be the case now in.



Ever hear of Dixon Bros painting here in Phx? Mike stepped down from running the daily ops and promoted Jose. Turned into basically all hispanic painting. They exploited the illegals and cut the legals lose. I know, I was one of them. That was a decade ago.


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## longfxukxnhair

IMMIGRATION

Calif. College Offers Scholarship to Illegal Immigrants
By Jana Winter


A public community college in California has set up a scholarship fund for immigrant students — including illegal immigrants. The $2,500 scholarship has sparked anger by some, including at least one lawmaker who is threatening to cut off federal funding to the school.

Orange County's Santa Ana College says the controversial new memorial scholarship will be funded by private donations and honors former student Tan Ngoc Tran, a student leader and immigrant-rights activist who transferred to Brown University before she was killed by a drunk driver on May 15.

Students eligible for the new scholarship must have a 3.0 or higher grade point average, demonstrate a financial need and must also be trying to become an American citizen. Those eligible include students holding green cards, students who have permanent residency — and illegal, undocumented immigrants.

The scholarship was announced by the Santa Ana College Foundation at an informal memorial service for Tran held at Santa Ana College on Wednesday, said Laurie Weidner, spokeswoman for the Rancho Santiago Community College District, which governs Santa Ana College.

Weidner repeatedly emphasized to FoxNews.com that no public funds would be used for the scholarship.


But Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., whose district includes the taxpayer-funded Santa Ana College, says that isn't quite true — because the scholarship diverts resources from Americans in need of education funds.

"The fact that a public employee of a public college is seeking to circumvent immigration laws is problematic," he told FoxNews.com. "The fact that it's being associated with a public institution means there's public funds involved: If you have a fund being operated by public employees, it's public."

He said he could not believe that a college would announce such a scholarship at a time when the majority of Americans has increased concerns about security threats along the U.S.-Mexico border.

The Department of Homeland Security recently sent out an alert regarding a Somali man with reported terror ties who the agency believes is trying to sneak into the U.S. over the Mexican border.

"They totally misread the will of the people," Rohrabacher said of the school. "It's very bizarre."

The GOP lawmaker sent a letter to Santa Ana President Erlinda Martinez and has been in touch with members of the district board.

District board member Philip Yarborough — who is an elected official — says he's gotten a flurry of calls from outraged taxpayers who do not want public schools giving priority funding to illegal immigrants.

He was trying to find out exactly where the money would come from to fund this memorial scholarship.

But Weidner, the district spokeswoman, said critics are overreacting, and said the privately funded scholarship is meant to honor a "wonderful student leader" who continued her education after community college.

Tran, 27, was an undocumented immigrant pursuing a doctorate degree at Brown University at the time of her death. She was a leading member of the Dream Team, an activist group lobbying for the passage of the Dream Act, a bill that would provide certain protections for illegal immigrants living in the country, including giving access to scholarship money.

"We want all of our students to dream big and go to an Ivy league school — if they try hard and keep their focus, they can have the American dream too," said Weidner.

In his letter to the president of Santa Ana College, Rohrabacher called the scholarship "an affront to law abiding citizens whose tax dollars will pay the bill" and "an unconscionable insult to immigrants who took the time and considerable effort to come to this country legally.

"Channeling our scarce resources to illegal immigrants, even if they are students, is unforgivable at a time when so many of our citizens and legal residents are struggling to meet their own education needs," he wrote. "_f you feel compelled to misrepresent the interests of the taxpayers and your own students you are putting continued public financing for Santa Ana College in jeopardy."


I found this interesting_


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> I assume you are being serious and that this is how you truly feel?
> In light of this comment, do you see how and why there is national and international outrage over this topic? The law brings about negative comments like this that go way overboard. You may not like the idea of censure, but it doesn't make comments like this right. Obviously, the internet shields you somewhat (thought the internet is sparking a whole new way of rethinking and applying existing law, in addition to the creation of new laws), but shouldn't thought of as having the ability to say whatever you want. If you were a politician or even had some kind of high profile job, you would be cruxified by the media (even if it were done in jest); I've seen this happened before. True, you'd still have your freedom of speech to protect you, but I guess I am appealing to a moral sensitility. By saying things like this, all you are doing is fueling the flames of rage, not doing anything to fix the illegal immigration problem.
> 
> Like I said before, I support AZ's citizens right to protection of life and property from its state and local government, but not through 1070, and certainly not with Bugg's comments. Buggs, you've been around the forum for quite awhile (a fact that goes beyond a the number of posts you've contributed) and I know from this experience that you usually make a lot of sense, displayed great knowledge and hospitality, have had a great sensibility and understanding for the intantigle, but I feel for the first time a great sense of disappointment and regret. I can't stop people from saying writing what they want (nor would I ever want that power), but I think that your comment is enough for me to bow out of this thread (an act that I'm sure will hardly matter). Good luck with all.



where in my post did i say just mow everyone down with the spray from an AK?

how many people from the U.S cross the border and kidnap kids?
how many MI13 members cross the border into Mexico and spread violence
from our culture into theirs?
how much drugs do Americans smuggle across the border?

did you ever stop and think that maybe i was being cynical in my response

i will end with this.....if the border was a free rifle range do you think it would stop or reduce the spill of anything into this country.....me thinks the only people that would try would be those we don't want in this country

i also find it funny that 90% of the people bitching about this law have not posted any hatred against (in this case Mexico) their own Government

how did the us become what it is?....it was fought for....i don't see the people in Mexico taking on the government and drug lords....why is that?
is it the fear of dying?....is Mexico not worth fighting for by it's own citizens?
last time i checked these people are not suppressed by their Government like say the people of N.Korea.....so instead of trying to reason with people that have freedom....why not rally to get that freedom where it belongs?....is it that much easier to appeal towards our good will 

As i natural born citizen is it that wrong for me to criticize the things that change the way i raise my kids?

did you read the part about the hit and run car still parked in my neighbors garage? ....shall i post some pics of the guy that died in front of my house last year to the hands of someone that was not only not legal to drive but was not even here legally?


why don't the Germans...Italians...the Irish or 90% of the rest of the population not bitch about our immigration laws?

ever been near the immigration building on 79st in Miami?....that line will wrap the block at least 3 times by 10 am.....pain in the ass to be sure..but those people seem to think it's worth that hassle to come here....why would i bring up Miami?.....i have made a few friends from other countries that came here legally to work and as much as it sucked they either stood in that line or actually flew to Newark N.J to keep their status valid


for everybody that hates my opinion did you ever ask me how i formed it?
are people born to hate?....some are raised that way but how many are born that way?

i was born and raised in Camden N.J......not many white kids in my neighborhood (though i don't consider myself to be white)
but do you see me hating on the Blacks that made my life a living hell in my younger years?...is my Black sister in law a racist for marrying my brother?
she also hates illegals.....is she a racist?

i got into a spat last night for using the word "Chinks" to describe the people making fake les pauls.....wonder how informed my decision?...maybe i was attacking the fact that they have not a care about breaking laws to sell their goods?....sorry but i don't see people from Guadalajara spaming this board every morning
unlike a sheeple i do not form my opinions because of what other people say
i base them off of what i see and experience and last time i was checked my eyesight was 20/20 so i am not looking at this blindly....stop hating me and start hating the source.....because when the source changes so might my opinion


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## tim p

I for one have no problem with immigration so long as it's done through the proper channels. The land of opportunity right. I'm a drywaller by trade and most of the guys I work with are Portuguese, legal and honest hard working people. The problem I see is the illegal's coming here (Canada) working for peanuts and driving the wages down.We have to put a stop to the employers who are trying to get rich by hiring illegal immigrants. Have you ever been to the Toronto bus station, 5 minutes and you are surrounded by Jamaicans trying to force you to buy dope. I'm not racist I've got a buddy Winston from Jamaica. He comes here once a year to pick apples legally.We all pool our Canadian tire money together for him to buy stuff to fix his house up back in Jamaica. I agree with buggs. God knows what kind of extremest might be trying to sneak through that huge open border. It scares the hell out of me.


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## longfxukxnhair

America is the land of equal opportunity. Not of equal outcome. That is the problem with the illegal problem. They break the law to get in this country and then demand not only equality but at least an equal out come. Not all do. But there is a very vocal minority (minority as in numbers not race) that expect it. Illegal is not a victimless crime. It is spread around so all tax payers feel it. Now is not the time for reform. Now is time for enforcement. You wouldnt go around telling drug dealers to wait a bit longer until we reform the drug laws.


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## longfxukxnhair

tim p said:


> i agree with buggs. God knows what kind of extremest might be trying to sneak through that huge open border. It scares the hell out of me.



+10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


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## MonstersOfTheMidway

I rethought this whole thread the past couple of days. Truth is, the issue is NOT settled, so I'm gonna sit it this one out until it has been settled by the Supreme Court (this seems to be where its headed.) I've stated my position and there's not much more to do in this thread from my point of view. But after it's settled, I'll revisit this thread and give responses to ALL OF YOUR POSTS. I'll be looking forward to it.


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## longfxukxnhair

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> I rethought this whole thread the past couple of days. Truth is, the issue is NOT settled, so I'm gonna sit it this one out until it has been settled by the Supreme Court (this seems to be where its headed.) I've stated my position and there's not much more to do in this thread from my point of view. But after it's settled, I'll revisit this thread and give responses to ALL OF YOUR POSTS. I'll be looking forward to it.



I have spoken with 2 constitutional lawyers and both say that AZ is with in its rights on this law. But both (as I already knew this) pointed out that its up to the judge(s) that review this. And political leaning will play into this. That is sad. Our founding fathers did not write anything from a political leaning slant.


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## triftstrassa

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> I rethought this whole thread the past couple of days. Truth is, the issue is NOT settled, so I'm gonna sit it this one out until it has been settled by the Supreme Court (this seems to be where its headed.) I've stated my position and there's not much more to do in this thread from my point of view. But after it's settled, I'll revisit this thread and give responses to ALL OF YOUR POSTS. I'll be looking forward to it.



Sweet!
I will make sure to set aside some time to hear about your liberal, biased, personal opinions about something you have zero knowlege of, and no reason to even chime in in the first place.


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## tonefreak

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgOHOHKBEqE&feature=popular]YouTube - Ray Stevens - Come to the USA[/ame]


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## tim p

Sad but true. It's easier for an illegal immigrant to get welfare and free education than it is for an honest hard working citizen who's down on his or her luck.


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## longfxukxnhair

tim p said:


> sad but true. It's easier for an illegal immigrant to get welfare and free education than it is for an honest hard working citizen who's down on his or her luck.



+111111


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## MonstersOfTheMidway

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDM_96X40BU]YouTube - Richard Jeni A Big Steaming Pile Of Me CLIP[/ame]


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## MartyStrat54

tim p said:


> Sad but true. It's easier for an illegal immigrant to get welfare and free education than it is for an honest hard working citizen who's down on his or her luck.



Used to see it all of the time in Phoenix. I can just imagine what it is like now.


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## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> Used to see it all of the time in Phoenix. I can just imagine what it is like now.



Its not much different. But the illegals are more vocal now. They arent worried about hiding and keeping a low profile.


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## tim p

It's not much different here in Canada. Sneak into country, claim refugee status. move into your new home, wait for the government to give you grants to open a business then move all your relatives here as well.


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## longfxukxnhair

tim p said:


> It's not much different here in Canada. Sneak into country, claim refugee status. move into your new home, wait for the government to give you grants to open a business then move all your relatives here as well.



I had no idea Canada was going thru the same thing. What is the reaction there?


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## tim p

I for one cant stand it. I know I'm not alone. I work hard for what I got ( Local 249 carpenters and allied crafts) It pisses me off to see my tax dollars given away like that when I'm really gonna have to bust my balls to send my daughter to collage. Most people suck it up like the pussies that they are


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## longfxukxnhair

tim p said:


> I for one cant stand it. I know I'm not alone. I work hard for what I got ( Local 249 carpenters and allied crafts) It pisses me off to see my tax dollars given away like that when I'm really gonna have to bust my balls to send my daughter to collage. Most people suck it up like the pussies that they are



same shit here.


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## cptnkrunch

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tim p
> I for one cant stand it. I know I'm not alone. I work hard for what I got ( Local 249 carpenters and allied crafts) It pisses me off to see my tax dollars given away like that when I'm really gonna have to bust my balls to send my daughter to collage. Most people suck it up like the pussies that they are
> 
> ]
> Yep, same shit here only worse. News story the other night on how my state(Co.) has become a safe haven and a hub for illegals because of it's liberal views and central location. The county I live in has a 15% unemploment rate not including all the contractors and sub-contractors who cannot collect unemployment. The Co contracting laws are very lax so we have a shit load of sub's here. So their saying 25-30% unemployment rate is a very real possibility but lot's and lot's of illegals still working. This is very frustrating for alot of people especialy the south western states. Hopefully Canada can learn something from us and make some changes to their system before it's to late. One thing I have learned about the illegals, regardless of what language it's written in they have a full understanding of the word FREE.


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## tonefreak

AINT NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH

all the illegals see of that is---

FREE LUNCH


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## cptnkrunch

> AINT NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH
> 
> all the illegals see of that is---
> 
> FREE LUNCH


I have a mother in-law that used to work for the school system here. She said almost all of the people on the free lunch program are latino. She was not sure what percentage was legal or illegal.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I have a mother in-law that used to work for the school system here. She said almost all of the people on the free lunch program are latino. She was not sure what percentage was legal or illegal.



its getting to the point that they are pushing american citizens into a corner. I fear what will come next if our leaders continue with this.


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## motorhead_6

I think the Arizona bill is to lax actually. A lot of shit people say against them is not really true but it is a big big problem. If we stopped illegal immigration we could double military spending AND give everybody free healthcare while we eliminated the debt. I am not kidding.

According to the American Heritage Foundation (and I have heard nobody come up with any different figures) illegal "immigration" cost us 2.1 trillion dollars per year. For comparison sake the CRS (congressional research service) says that all of WW2 combined cost us 4.4 trillion (2009) dollars. It also says we have spent less than a trillion on our entire military combined since 9-11-2001.

The solution to this problem, which will almost surely never be done, is simply to make it cost more to hire illegals than it does not to. That could be achieved by prison sentences or incredibly large fines for anybody who hires them. That means actually enforcing it. Then we would not have to round them up and ship them back which would be very expensive and consume a lot of man power. As soon as they stop hiring them then they will find their way back however they can without costing us anything. Soon the word would spread that there is no more jobs and they would stop coming here. But there is no way that no member of congress has not thought of this already. It is so obvious I am sure most have. They just won't do it because they are a bunch of fucking dicks.

It is not possible to physically stop them from crossing the border no mater what we do. We need to remove the incentive to do so. Right now for incentive they know if they make it across they not only have little to worry about but also a guarantee'd job and all of their kids will be US citizens. That beats the hell out of staying there. Until we remove the incentive they are going to be here.

Another possibility would be to impeach a president over it. It wouldn't matter which one. The last 6 or so have all been impeachable for "failing to defend the US against foreign invasion". There are only a few specific reasons a president can be impeached (none of the reasons everybody wanted to impeach Bush are impeachable offenses) but that is one of them.


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## tim p

Me thinks these fat cats and rich gov't people dont want to do anything about it because they need people to cook and clean for them and they are to cheep to pay someone an honest wage to do it.


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## motorhead_6

Well you are part right. All of the democrats oppose ANY legislation that would impede illegal "immigration" period because they hope to give them amnesty which they see as 12 to 20 million votes for democrat candidates. The republicans who oppose any legislation that would impede illegal "immigration" do so because they see cheap labor. Fortunately at least a lot of republicans do not fall into that category.

The people being hurt the most are all blue collar workers. American citizen blue collar workers are steadily being wiped completely off of the map by illegal aliens and that is a damn shame because they are the people who built this country.

It is no coincidence that the number of unemployed Americans is about the same as the number of illegal aliens in the country.

Also according to the FBI 15% of all murders are committed by illegal aliens and illegal aliens make up about 5% of the people in the country. Illegal aliens commit murder at 3 times the rate of citizens. For sex crimes and DWI's the rate is even higher than for murder.

Of course even if illegal aliens committed murder at 1/4 of the rate as citizens that would be far too many unnecessary murders.


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## longfxukxnhair

motorhead_6 said:


> Well you are part right. All of the democrats oppose ANY legislation that would impede illegal "immigration" period because they hope to give them amnesty which they see as 12 to 20 million votes for democrat candidates. The republicans who oppose any legislation that would impede illegal "immigration" do so because they see cheap labor. Fortunately at least a lot of republicans do not fall into that category.
> 
> The people being hurt the most are all blue collar workers. American citizen blue collar workers are steadily being wiped completely off of the map by illegal aliens and that is a damn shame because they are the people who built this country.
> 
> It is no coincidence that the number of unemployed Americans is about the same as the number of illegal aliens in the country.
> 
> Also according to the FBI 15% of all murders are committed by illegal aliens and illegal aliens make up about 5% of the people in the country. Illegal aliens commit murder at 3 times the rate of citizens. For sex crimes and DWI's the rate is even higher than for murder.
> 
> Of course even if illegal aliens committed murder at 1/4 of the rate as citizens that would be far too many unnecessary murders.



+1000
As is the case with damn near everything, both side of the political spectrum are part of the problem. Neither party has clean hands in this. Business needs large fines as you spoke off earlier. So big that it out weights taking the risk. If illegals cant work the will self deport. Obama now wants to challenge AZ "employer sanction" law too. The laws AZ has passed isnt the cure. Its a start. But as long as the other 49 states and the federal govt do nothing this will continue.


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## motorhead_6

Here in Texas we have tried to do something. Every time we pass a law the US supreme court over-rules it. Farmers Branch has passed about 6 laws in a row and the US Supreme court keeps over-turning them. We have one state congressman named Leo Berman who is always proposing bills for Texas (which people with twisted minds call bills against illegal aliens). I love that guy. I don't live in his district but he still always writes me back.

Believe me if the federal government would let us do it then Texas would not have a problem with illegal aliens. They will not allow us to do anything. We have as big a problem as ANYBODY with them and more than most. In Texas if you were a construction worker, painter, truck driver or any of several other blue collar type workers and a US citizen you are unemployed now.


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## longfxukxnhair

motorhead_6 said:


> Here in Texas we have tried to do something. Every time we pass a law the US supreme court over-rules it. Farmers Branch has passed about 6 laws in a row and the US Supreme court keeps over-turning them. We have one state congressman named Leo Berman who is always proposing bills for Texas (which people with twisted minds call bills against illegal aliens). I love that guy. I don't live in his district but he still always writes me back.
> 
> Believe me if the federal government would let us do it then Texas would not have a problem with illegal aliens. They will not allow us to do anything. We have as big a problem as ANYBODY with them and more than most. In Texas if you were a construction worker, painter, truck driver or any of several other blue collar type workers and a US citizen you are unemployed now.



The Obama admin is going to challenge AZ on its law. If the feds fail I think you will see other states create laws like AZ's. It is a hot button issue. Not all states will. Look at states that are democrat strongholds. Look how poor their inner cities are. There are a lot of good minds out there wasting away. All because they grew up dependent on the government.
Sadly, you are correct about the blue collar worker and how this affects them (me included). This isnt all Obama's fault. He didnt start it. But he sure isnt doing anything about it. So that makes it his now. There can be no doubt that there is an assault on the blue collar workers and the middle class in America now.


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## longfxukxnhair

And here is the other part of the problem.



Mexico opens California office to provide ID for illegals
By: Sara A. Carter 
National Security Correspondent
June 3, 2010


The Mexican government is opening a satellite consular office on Catalina Island -- a small resort off the California coast with a history of drug smuggling and human trafficking -- to provide the island's illegal Mexican immigrants with identification cards, The Washington Examiner has learned.
The Mexican consular office in Los Angeles issued a flier, a copy of which was obtained by The Examiner, listing the Catalina Island Country Club as the location of its satellite office. It invites Mexicans to visit the office to obtain the identification, called matricular cards, by appointment.
Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, a Republican whose district includes Catalina Island, said handing out matricular cards will exacerbate an already dangerous situation.
"Handing out matricular cards to Mexicans who are not in this country legally is wrong no matter where it's done," he said. "But on Catalina it will do more damage. It's a small island but there's evidence it's being used as a portal for illegals to access mainland California."
Rohrabacher added, "If there were a large number of Americans illegally in Mexico and the U.S. consulate was making it easier for them to stay, Mexico would never permit it."
Mexican officials with the consular office in Los Angeles could not be reached immediately for comment. The matricular consular identification card, is issued by the Mexican government to Mexican nationals residing outside the country, regardless of immigration status. The purpose is to provide identification for opening bank accounts and obtaining other services. But the cards are usually used to skirt U.S. immigration laws, since Mexicans in the country legally have documents proving that status, Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials said.
In 2004 testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee, FBI officials called the card an unreliable form of identification. The agency said that Mexico lacks a centralized database for them, which could lead to forgery, duplication, and other forms of abuse.
Officers with the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement said their agency was asked by Mexican officials not to enforce U.S. immigration laws on the island while the cards were being issued.
"It amazes me every time that the Mexican government has the gall to tell us what to do," said an ICE official, who asked not to be named. "More surprisingly is how many times we stand by and let them. This is just an example of one of hundreds of requests we've had to deal with."
In April, Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies seized a boat carrying large quantities of marijuana and detained three Mexican nationals who said they were being smuggled into the United States.
The island has a sizable Mexican migrant population. Most are undocumented low-income workers.
1:15pm UPDATE:

Mexican government officials have moved their satellite consular office from the Catalina Island Country Club to a Catholic Church – citing protection under the Geneva Convention.


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## cptnkrunch

The bottom line is our goverment and corporate America have turned their backs on the American people, all in the name of self serving greed and gain. It's disgusting to think how hard our fore fathers fought to make this country what it is, only to watch it be given away more and more each day. We don't make shit here anymore, everythings out sourced and they allow people who are here illegaly to take the few jobs we have left. Our elected officals are spineless and have no backbone to stand up for the rights of the American citizens that put them in office. I commend Az for standing up for it's people. Think what you want but it's very obvious to me that Washington and many state politicians don't give a fuck about the American people who elected them and write their paychecks. It's very sad and difficult to watch.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> the bottom line is our goverment and corporate america have turned their backs on the american people, all in the name of self serving greed and gain. It's disgusting to think how hard our fore fathers fought to make this country what it is, only to watch it be given away more and more each day. We don't make shit here anymore, everythings out sourced and they allow people who are here illegaly to take the few jobs we have left. Our elected officals are spineless and have no backbone to stand up for the rights of the american citizens that put them in office. I commend az for standing up for it's people. Think what you want but it's very obvious to me that washington and many state politicians don't give a fuck about the american people who elected them and write their paychecks. It's very sad and difficult to watch.



+1000000


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## motorhead_6

The feds will kill the Arizona bill probably before it even becomes law. Don't get me wrong. I am rooting for Arizona. I just do not think they will win. And I didn't say if challenged either because it will be challenged FOR SURE.


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## longfxukxnhair

motorhead_6 said:


> The feds will kill the Arizona bill probably before it even becomes law. Don't get me wrong. I am rooting for Arizona. I just do not think they will win. And I didn't say if challenged either because it will be challenged FOR SURE.



I think this case and the new health care law will plainly show us that the supreme court doesnt work as intended.


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## motorhead_6

What is so ridicules about it is the fact that the federal government is striking down state laws that are also federal laws. They are saying to the state "you can't enforce our laws" and also "you can't make a law that is already a federal law". Right? 

Well they have never done that with any other laws except those involving illegal aliens. EX: Kidnapping is a federal crime. In Texas Kidnapping is also a state crime. I know a guy who did 15 years for kidnapping and it was the state of Texas that gave it to him. The federal government did not step in and say "you can't enforce our laws" then. They never shot down the Texas law against kidnapping. They NEVER have over anything except illegal aliens.


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## tonefreak

motorhead_6 said:


> What is so ridicules about it is the fact that the federal government is striking down state laws that are also federal laws. They are saying to the state "you can't enforce our laws" and also "you can't make a law that is already a federal law". Right?
> 
> Well they have never done that with any other laws except those involving illegal aliens. EX: Kidnapping is a federal crime. In Texas Kidnapping is also a state crime. I know a guy who did 15 years for kidnapping and it was the state of Texas that gave it to him. The federal government did not step in and say "you can't enforce our laws" then. They never shot down the Texas law against kidnapping. They NEVER have over anything except illegal aliens.




Technically, (as far as I can tell in my studies of the American Constitution) The Federal Government has no power to strike down State Laws. The purpose of the Federal Government when it was started, in 1778 I believe (yes I know, Independence day was in 1776, but the government didn't get to business till '78 or '79), was to help keep the states a UNION. Not to protect them, not to make rules for them...
They could declare a law unconstitutional, but I don't think they could really strike it down.

But in todays world, idiots (I MEAN Supreme court injustices) have decided that they can run their mouth, and ignore the constitution, and then declare laws unconstitutional (even though they may have never READ the Constitution), and then strike those laws down.

The Federal Government is way the heck to big for it's britches. It's gonna take another group of states seceding from the Union, and possibly another civil war (and if you thought the last one was bloody...) to get it straightened back out.


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## longfxukxnhair

tonefreak said:


> Technically, (as far as I can tell in my studies of the American Constitution) The Federal Government has no power to strike down State Laws. The purpose of the Federal Government when it was started, in 1778 I believe (yes I know, Independence day was in 1776, but the government didn't get to business till '78 or '79), was to help keep the states a UNION. Not to protect them, not to make rules for them...
> They could declare a law unconstitutional, but I don't think they could really strike it down.
> 
> But in todays world, idiots (I MEAN Supreme court injustices) have decided that they can run their mouth, and ignore the constitution, and then declare laws unconstitutional (even though they may have never READ the Constitution), and then strike those laws down.
> 
> The Federal Government is way the heck to big for it's britches. It's gonna take another group of states seceding from the Union, and possibly another civil war (and if you thought the last one was bloody...) to get it straightened back out.



You are correct TF.
To me this is the sad part in all this. You have cities like San Fran who are called sanctuary city. Which means they are willing to break federal law. For every illegal who takes more out of the system than they put in, that is unfair to those citizens who do. Currently they are talking about letting illegals vote in local races. There are some who want America to be open border. That is a whole other discussion. And not to be confused with enforcement of all current laws. Reform is not enforcement. And enforcement is not racism.
Maybe some percentage in this country have no problem with paying more and getting less so those who are here illegally can draw from it. I am not one of them. The current immigration laws exist for a reason. For the health of this nation. So their assimilation into our society will not be a shell shock. Everyone who goes thru the process takes a oath to not be a burden to this country. Illegals arent taken this oath. They have no reason to do what is best for America. They sure cant go over seas and fight for the rights/liberties that they are trying to get thru the back door.
I am not one who believes in terms like Afro American or Mexican American just to name a few. When you are a citizen of America, born or naturalized, you are an American. End of story. 
Right now we have people in this country who arent American citizens demanding we the citizens/tax payers continue to pay their bill. I have seen the paycheck of many illegals. They pay next to nothing in taxes. And what they do pay goes to the federal govt. Our govt takes this money knowing full well an illegal will not be able to draw on those benefits. The Dems see illegals as a voting base that could become dependent on govt hand outs. Repubs see them as cheap labor. Basically a form of slavery. When you look at the 3 sides of power in all of this its not hard to understand why we are in this mess.
This is our government who not only is screwing over the American people but illegals as well. The real anger shouldnt be directed at AZ for doing their job as mandated by the AZ constitution. The anger should be directed at the federal govt. Who as TF pointed out has gotten way to big. They arent in charge of the states. They work for the states. In the simplest terms.
I want all laws enforced. Not just the ones I agree with. If the rest of the world is going to have borders then we should too. And if that is the case (as it is now) then enforcing immigration laws is a must.


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## motorhead_6

You are right. The federal government "can't" strike down a state law. But they do it. Do a search for "Farmers Branch Texas illegal alien" and you will see where they have struck down several. 

Not for any law except one pertaining to illegal aliens is apparently the way they interpret the constitution. Don't ask me how the fuck they figure that. Here is an example. It was illegal in Texas to be a homo and the US supreme court declared the law unconstitutional. Guess what? It is still illegal to be a homo in Texas only now at the end of the law in the penal code is says "this law was declared unconstitutional by the US supreme court." The law still exists though.


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## longfxukxnhair

motorhead_6 said:


> You are right. The federal government "can't" strike down a state law. But they do it. Do a search for "Farmers Branch Texas illegal alien" and you will see where they have struck down several.
> 
> Not for any law except one pertaining to illegal aliens is apparently the way they interpret the constitution. Don't ask me how the fuck they figure that. Here is an example. It was illegal in Texas to be a homo and the US supreme court declared the law unconstitutional. Guess what? It is still illegal to be a homo in Texas only now at the end of the law in the penal code is says "this law was declared unconstitutional by the US supreme court." The law still exists though.



So if the supreme court declared that and the law is still on the books, what happens?


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## Buggs.Crosby

Tes a state law can be struck down if it overturns a Federal Law......state laws must be inline with Federal laws unless it has been determined that each state can make it's own......just like the speed limit.....it was 55....now it is what ever the state sets it at

and it will be kinda sad if the Supreme Court shoots down Arizona's law as unconstitutional
as the Constitution should only apply to legal U.S citizens.....not Illegal Aliens


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Tes a state law can be struck down if it overturns a Federal Law......state laws must be inline with Federal laws unless it has been determined that each state can make it's own......just like the speed limit.....it was 55....now it is what ever the state sets it at
> 
> and it will be kinda sad if the Supreme Court shoots down Arizona's law as unconstitutional
> as the Constitution should only apply to legal U.S citizens.....not Illegal Aliens



And as you stated, our state law matches fed law. We didnt crerate a new immigration or foreign policy. Like I said earlier, how the court rules on this will show Americans how the court really works and the loss of states rights.


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## tonefreak

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the Immigration bill, but it's truth. which we don't have enough of in this country.


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## motorhead_6

Did you mean what happened about the homo law? It is still a law. I don't know of anybody being arrested for it either before or after it was declared unconstitutional by the US supreme court but it is still in the penal code. Texas Penal Code Title 5 Chapter 21 Section 21.6 Homosexual Conduct. Here is a link to it.

PENAL CODE  CHAPTER 21. SEXUAL OFFENSES


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## cptnkrunch

> it will be kinda sad if the Supreme Court shoots down Arizona's law as unconstitutional
> as the Constitution should only apply to legal U.S citizens.....not Illegal Aliens



Don't forget about the ACLU. You know it's guaranteed that they will be throwing a wrench in this and playing the race card. They have alot of pull in Washington.


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## MonstersOfTheMidway

triftstrassa said:


> Sweet.
> Another book of a post, and still wrong when it comes to the law.
> We deport on a daily basis here.
> Perhaps next time you read the 1070 bill, do it without the mentallity that its wrong, and you are undoubtedly right about everything.
> 
> You live in socal, you are NOT in AZ, you DO NOT have the right to decide what is good for AZ citizens and what we voted for, no matter how much you think you do. Please see paragraph 1.
> 
> I love the liberal mentallity. "Im right, all of you who voted for this in a state where I dont live are wrong"
> 
> Hey save yourself the 300 word essay about your personal feelings and what you do and dont stand for, and deal with the facts of whats happening to MY state.
> I pray it never ends up like socal where your form of problem solving seems to have worked so well.
> 
> As for the comment made by some one in jest about guarding the border as a two way rifle range I can only add,
> It was his statement, and I found it funny.
> But unlike you, Ive actually stood on a border, with a gun, and its sad how I was paid to defend other countries where border laws were stronger than our own.
> We are the only world power that has open borders, and I blame that on the big business, corrupt politicians, and people like you.


 

I'll start here because it's clear what you want to do.

I'm not sorry to say that you have no monopoly on the process of understanding something. I know that you wish you could just say this is true, but it never works out that way.

AZ situation is not too different from ours in SoCal. I know you want to believe that you want to believe what is happening in your state is unique, but other states have an illegal immigration issue. Los Angeles, California is most likely the city with the most illegal immigrants from a distance of 200 miles or less. That's one of a dozen reasons why I think it's relative, though I know you and other still won't be convinced. 

Funny thing is, we are not too angry about the situation in general. Yeah, we want the situation fixed, but we go about it a little bit differently here. We'll have editorials in local newspapers about possible solutions, we'll have some townhall style meetings to discuss solutions. In short, I think we try to find an answer that is fair and just. But we also know what happens when you try to take matters into your own hands. We had proposition 187 back in 1994 (the "Save Our State" initiative) and if failed because those who wrote it did a poor job, and the federal government challenged it. Illegal immigration reform done in that manner failed, and we have learned from it! It was an expensive and time consuming mistake and we now know we need to spend our time, money, energy, and votes differently. That is why I believe that 1070 is written poorly and it will fail when challenged by the federal court. 

What we in CA won't do is try to see this issue as black or white and that a simple fix is the solution we need. That is the how 1070 because misguided. Everything is reduced to black and white (red and blue). The problem is the rest of us accept the claims that these are the only viable solutions-they are not. Sadly, a nuanced solution to a complex problem will almost always be trumped by a simplistic fix to a contrived one-dimensional presentation of it. This is especially true if the “fix” can be reduced to a clever sound bite-something politicians and talking heads are past masters at. Unfortunately, while this may get them what they want-more votes or better ratings-it makes the real problem worse for the rest of us.

So, to Trift, I think you need to step back, review some of your comments thread, review some of my comments in this thread, and employ some reflection on your part. For example, I've never said in any of my posts in this thread that illegals should be given anything and everything they want, including immediate legal status, free health care, or free anything for that matter. I've never said that we (or Arizona residents specifically) owe illegal immigrants anything! Read back my posts and you'll be hardpressed to find these sentiments. I think you are bringing a different point of view that is misguided when you try to address me in this thread. I believe you are hearing one thing (illegal immigrants have rights) on the television or some other medial, then projecting those sentimentns onto what I'm saying. WRONG CONCLUSION, BUDDY!!! I never, ever, said we owe illegal immigrants anything! 

Did I hit 300 words yet? I could go on in this one, but I feel you will still find a way to make me "wrong" or at least assign me the infamous role of the proverbial "bad guy." I just can't wait!!!!


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## motorhead_6

You did say the magic words "immigration reform". Immigration reform is bullshit. What we need is to reform the way the current immigration laws are enforced. Immigration reform should be in the other direction. We should stop allowing the children of illegals to automatically become citizens. In Dallas Texas illegals get free non-emergency healthcare no questions asked. You might say "Cool. Who does that hurt?" The answer is it hurts everybody in Dallas. Parkland hospital which happens to be one of the best burn centers in the world is probably going to close because they are in the red bigtime because of all the illegals. 78% of all babies born there are born to illegals and they loose a ton of money on each of them. What does it cost the federal government? Not a damn thing. That is why they don't give a fuck about it. Actually by law they are supposed to reimburse the state but they don't.


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## longfxukxnhair

motorhead_6 said:


> you did say the magic words "immigration reform". Immigration reform is bullshit. What we need is to reform the way the current immigration laws are enforced. Immigration reform should be in the other direction. We should stop allowing the children of illegals to automatically become citizens. In dallas texas illegals get free non-emergency healthcare no questions asked. You might say "cool. Who does that hurt?" the answer is it hurts everybody in dallas. Parkland hospital which happens to be one of the best burn centers in the world is probably going to close because they are in the red bigtime because of all the illegals. 78% of all babies born there are born to illegals and they loose a ton of money on each of them. What does it cost the federal government? Not a damn thing. That is why they don't give a fuck about it. Actually by law they are supposed to reimburse the state but they don't.



+10000


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## longfxukxnhair

longfxukxnhair said:


> I am not looking to start shit with this thread. So lets keep it cool.



Lets remember my opening sentence.


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## cptnkrunch

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by longfxukxnhair
> I am not looking to start shit with this thread. So lets keep it cool.



Oh right, whatever, you always say that.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Oh right, whatever, you always say that.



I got to say it. Its a disclaimer. I might not always follow it.  Just dont want this to get out of hand like the Iraq thread did.


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## cptnkrunch

LFH,I don't want to screw this thread up but this is getting ridiculous.


> So, to Trift, I think you need to step back, review some of your comments thread, review some of my comments in this thread, and employ some reflection on your part.





> I'm not sorry to say that you have no monopoly on the process of understanding something. I know that you wish you could just say this is true, but it never works out that way.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt I ever presented myself as an enemy, so I know that it's the media and various commentary that is contrary to 1070 that riles you (trust me, if I deemed you my enemy, you'd know it).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I assume this is how you truly think and feel (i.e. killing in that manner). Says a lot, don't you think?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did I hit 300 words yet? I could go on in this one, but I feel you will still find a way to make me "wrong" or at least assign me the infamous role of the proverbial "bad guy." I just can't wait!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> MoM,
> Your condescending, know-all and be-littling tone of post to forum members is really starting to irritate the chit out of me and others.
Click to expand...


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> LFH,I don't want to screw this thread up but this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sorry to say that you have no monopoly on the process of understanding something. I know that you wish you could just say this is true, but it never works out that way.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> MoM,
> Your condescending, know-all and be-littling tone of post to forum members is really starting to irritate the chit out of me and others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree Capt. Thats why I put the disclaimer back up. Lets keep it cool people.
Click to expand...


----------



## core

Two dead in AZ recently, 80 miles from the border. They called 911 and said they'd been shot by illegal drug runners. When the authorities arrived they were already dead. The was a story on Hannity tonight, then he had a guy on who is placing hidden cameras on a trail used by drug runners, in the same area, going to and from Mexico showing them packing in bails of Marijuana and smuggling in people. This is about a mile from a main interstate where AZ residents and vacationers are known to camp in the area. Pretty crazy stuff! There's a site that shows all the videos of this going on. Many of them carrying AK's, Mac 10's, long range high powered rifles.

Border Invasion Pics - Videos and photos of suspected border intruders entering the US


----------



## cptnkrunch

Wishfull thinking I know, this was sent to me today, 583.3 billion a year!



> Subject: What if 20 Million Illegal Aliens Vacated America ?
> 
> What if 20 Million Illegal Aliens Vacated America ?
> ( note: ILLEGAL - here without papers )
> 
> I, Tina Griego, journalist for the Denver Rocky Mountain News wrote a
> column titled, 'Mexican Visitor's Lament' -- 10/25/07.
> 
> I interviewed Mexican journalist Evangelina Hernandez while visiting
> Denver last week.
> Hernandez said, 'They (illegal aliens) pay rent, buy groceries, buy
> clothes...What Happens to your country's economy if 20 million people go
> away?' Hummm, I thought, what would happen, so I did my due diligence,
> buried my nose as a reporter into the FACTS I found below.
> 
> It's a good question - it deserves an honest answer. Over 80% of Americans
> demand secured borders and illegal migration stopped. But what would happen
> if all 20 million or more vacated America ?
> The answers I found may surprise you!
> 
> In California , if 3.5 million illegal aliens moved back to Mexico,
> it would leave an extra $10.2 billion to spend on overloaded school systems,
> bankrupt hospitals and overrun prisons. It would leave highways cleaner,
> safer and less congested. Everyone could understand one another as English
> became the dominant language again.
> 
> In Colorado , 500,000 illegal migrants, plus their 300,000 kids and
> grand-kids - would move back 'home', mostly to Mexico . That would save
> Coloradans an estimated $2 billion (other experts say $7 billion) annually
> in taxes that pay for schooling, medical, social-services and incarceration
> costs.
> It means 12,000 gang members would vanish out of Denver alone.
> 
> Colorado would save more than $20 million in prison costs, and the
> terror that those 7,300 alien criminals set upon local citizens. Denver
> Officer Don Young and hundreds of Colorado victims would not have suffered
> death, accidents, rapes and other crimes by illegals.
> 
> Denver Public Schools would not suffer a 67 percent
> drop-out/flunk-out rate because of thousands of illegal alien students
> speaking 41 different languages. At least 200,000 vehicles would vanish from
> our gridlocked cities in Colorado. Denver 's 4% unemployment rate would
> vanish as our working poor would gain jobs at a living wage..
> 
> In Florida , 1.5 million illegals would return the Sunshine State
> back to America , the rule of law, and English.
> 
> In Chicago , Illinois , 2.1 million illegals would free up
> hospitals, schools, prisons and highways for a safer, cleaner and more
> crime-free experience.
> 
> If 20 million illegal aliens returned 'home' --
> 
> If 20 million illegal aliens returned 'home', the U.S. Economy would
> return to the rule of law. Employers would hire legal American citizens at a
> living wage. Everyone would pay their fair share of taxes because they
> wouldn't be working off the books. That would result in an additional $401
> Billion in IRS income taxes collected annually, and an equal amount for
> local, state and city coffers.
> 
> No more push '1' for Spanish or '2' for English. No more confusion in
> American schools that now must contend with over 100 languages that degrade
> the educational system for American kids. Our over-crowded schools would
> lose more than two million illegal alien kids at a cost of billions in ESL
> and free breakfasts and lunches.
> 
> We would lose 500,000 illegal criminal alien inmates at a cost of
> more than $1.6 billion annually. That includes 15,000 MS-13 gang members who
> distribute $130 billion in drugs annually would vacate our country.
> 
> In cities like L.A. , 20,000 members of the ' 18th Street Gang'
> would vanish from our nation. No more Mexican forgery gangs for ID theft
> from Americans! No more foreign rapists and child molesters!
> 
> Losing more than 20 million people would clear up our crowded
> highways and gridlock. Cleaner air and less drinking and driving American
> deaths by illegal aliens!
> America 's economy is drained. Taxpayers are harmed. Employers get
> rich. Over $80 billion annually wouldn't return to the aliens' home
> countries by cash transfers. Illegal migrants earned half that money
> untaxed, which further drains America 's economy - which currently suffers
> an
> $8.7 trillion debt.
> 
> At least 400,000 anchor babies would not be born in our country,
> costing us $109 billion per year per cycle. At least 86 hospitals in
> California , Georgia and Florida would still be operating instead of being
> bankrupt out of existence because illegals pay nothing via the EMTOLA Act.
> 
> Americans wouldn't suffer thousands of TB and hepatitis cases rampant
> in our country-brought in by illegals unscreened at our borders.
> 
> Our cities would see 20 million less people driving, polluting and
> grid locking our cities. It would also put the 'progressives' on the horns
> of a dilemma; illegal aliens and their families cause 11 percent of our
> greenhouse gases.
> 
> Over one million of Mexico 's poorest citizens now live inside and
> along our border from Brownsville , Texas to San Diego , California in
> what the New York Times called, 'colonias' or new neighborhoods. Trouble is,
> those living areas resemble Bombay and Calcutta where grinding poverty,
> filth, diseases, drugs, crimes, no sanitation and worse. They live without
> sewage, clean water, streets, elec tricity, roads or any kind of sanitation.
> 
> The New York Times reported them to be America 's new ' Third World ' inside
> our own country. Within 20 years, at their current growth rate, they expect
> 20 million residents of those colonias.
> (I've seen them personally in Texas and Arizona ; it's sickening beyond
> anything you can imagine.)
> 
> By enforcing our laws, we could repatriate them back to Mexico. We should
> invite 20 million aliens to go home, fix their own countries and/or make a
> better life in Mexico . We already invite a million
> people into our country legally more than all other countries combined
> annually. We cannot and must not allow anarchy at our borders, more anarchy
> within our borders and growing lawlessness at every level in our nation.
> It's time to stand up for our country, our culture, our civilization and our
> way of life.
> 
> Interesting Statistics!
> 
> Here are 14 reasons illegal aliens should vacate America , and I hope they
> are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the
> reader gets sick of reading them:
> 
> 1. $14 billion to $22 billion dollars are spent each year on welfare
> to illegal aliens.
> ( that's Billion with a 'B' ) - The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): Immigration and Welfare
> 
> 2.. $2.2 billion dollars are spent each year on food assistance
> programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal
> aliens. - Center for Immigration Studies
> 
> 3. $7.5 billion dollars are spent each year on Medicaid for illegal
> aliens. Center for Immigration Studies
> 
> 4. $12 billion dollars are spent each year on primary and secondary
> school education for children here illegally and they still cannot speak a
> word of English! CNN.com - Transcripts
> <http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html%A0> ;
> 
> 5. $27 billion dollars are spent each year for education for the
> American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies. -
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 6. $3 Million Dollars 'PER DAY' is spent to incarcerate illegal
> aliens. That's $1.2 Billion a year.
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 7. 28% percent of all federal prison inmates are illegal aliens.
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 8. $190 billion dollars are spent each year on illegal aliens for
> welfare & social services by the American taxpayers. -
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 9. $200 billion dollars per year in suppressed American wages are
> caused by the illegal aliens.
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's
> two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their
> children, are going to make a huge additional crime probl em in the US. -
> CNN.com - Transcripts
> 
> 11. During the year 2005, there were 8 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens
> that crossed our southern border with as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from
> other terrorist countries. Over 10,000 of those were middle-eastern
> terrorists. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroine, crack,
> Guns, and marijuana crossed into the U.S. from the southern border. -
> http://tinyurl.com/t9sht
> 
> 12.. The National Policy Institute, estimates that the total cost of
> mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion, or an average cost
> of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.& nbsp; -
> http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute..org/publications.php?b=deportation
> 
> 13. In 2006, illegal aliens sent home $65 BILLION in remittances back
> to their countries of origin, to their families & friends.
> Wooldridge - How Much Further Into This Nightmare?
> 
> 14. The dark side of illegal immigration: Nearly one million sex
> crimes are committed by illegal immigrants in the United States !' -
> http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml
> 
> Total cost a whopping $538.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR!!!


----------



## FLICKOFLASH




----------



## cptnkrunch

.


----------



## tim p




----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Wishfull thinking I know, this was sent to me today, 583.3 billion a year!



I have seen this before. I have seen numbers that put it at $338 bil.


----------



## Gryphon

I'm a Green Card living in SoCal, of British origin. I could write an essay on this, but the things that must be done are as follows:

1) Change citizenship laws to require at least one parent be legally in US before US citizenship is granted
2) Reform immigration process so instead of a serial process involving 3 Depts of Government requiring a bunch of lawyers to negotiate it, you have a process that makes maximum use of online applications and payments, with sensible quotas set by Congress. 
3) Amend the constitution to make any law granting amnesty to prior illegals unconstitutional (as long as there is hope, they will stay)
4) Require all State employees to actively enforce ALL Federal laws, or you might as well secede from the Union.
5) Secure the border. 
6) Change the culture so that its seen as un-American to buy goods made by, services from, or rent property to, illegals.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> I'm a Green Card living in SoCal, of British origin. I could write an essay on this, but the things that must be done are as follows:
> 
> 1) Change citizenship laws to require at least one parent be legally in US before US citizenship is granted
> 2) Reform immigration process so instead of a serial process involving 3 Depts of Government requiring a bunch of lawyers to negotiate it, you have a process that makes maximum use of online applications and payments, with sensible quotas set by Congress.
> 3) Amend the constitution to make any law granting amnesty to prior illegals unconstitutional (as long as there is hope, they will stay)
> 4) Require all State employees to actively enforce ALL Federal laws, or you might as well secede from the Union.
> 5) Secure the border.
> 6) Change the culture so that its seen as un-American to buy goods made by, services from, or rent property to, illegals.




This all makes perfect sense. We know governments dont operate like that.


----------



## Adwex

Ahhhh, a political thread to polarize us.

Cool.




Not.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> Ahhhh, a political thread to polarize us.
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not.



We are keeping it cool in here. I keep posting the disclamier "to keep it cool".


----------



## cptnkrunch

> We are keeping it cool in here. I keep posting the disclamier "to keep it cool".


I think it's healthy to debate or talk about controversial issues that effect our lives as long as we keep it all in check.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Gryphon said:


> I'm a Green Card living in SoCal, of British origin. I could write an essay on this, but the things that must be done are as follows:
> 
> 1) Change citizenship laws to require at least one parent be legally in US before US citizenship is granted
> 
> Thats what the Anchor baby law is aimed at....lets see if it works
> 
> 2) Reform immigration process so instead of a serial process involving 3 Depts of Government requiring a bunch of lawyers to negotiate it, you have a process that makes maximum use of online applications and payments, with sensible quotas set by Congress.
> 
> this should have been done ages ago.....and not just for imigration
> 
> 3) Amend the constitution to make any law granting amnesty to prior illegals unconstitutional (as long as there is hope, they will stay)
> 
> Do not touch the Constitution any more than it already has been......this one should not bend for US born citizens let alone let alone immigrants........sorry.....but that is like me asking to vote on whether the Royal family can continue it's free ride
> 
> 4) Require all State employees to actively enforce ALL Federal laws, or you might as well secede from the Union.
> 
> in most cases the States do enforce Federal Laws.....not so much when left to counties and cities themselves
> 
> 5) Secure the border.
> 
> should have never been left unsecured.....and until it is done every law that is on the books our being voted on is worthless
> 
> 
> 6) Change the culture so that its seen as un-American to buy goods made by, services from, or rent property to, illegals.
> 
> It used to be that way.....illegal or not.....when i was a kid i was taught to support America by buying American.....but greed has no no guilt or shame
> it takes whatever it needs to satisfy the individual




about 5 years ago i got into it with a Union electrician when i was doing a job that had both Union and non Union workers/companies.....this one guy everyday would always be a typical holier than thou type.....not union then you are a scab....one day we all wound up in the same area eating lunch when this guy would not shut up about how great he was because he was in the Union....and proudly wore his local T-shirt.....well he went to his car for something and when he came back i started in on him like this

Hey Dude i thought you were union proud and i was just a scab....to which he replied ...."you are" ....so i asked what made me so bad as i asked him not to lean against my truck......his reply "non union workers are stealing our jobs"....so i asked him how he felt about all the jobs he shipped over seas ......enraged at this point he asked "who the Fuck are you to question me" to which i replied I'm the guy that owns the Chevy you were just leaning on.....may i try that on your Honda Rav4.......dude walk away...silently...with all of his brothers just as silent as him....who was un American that day


i also note that according to the news immigrants are leaving Arizona just as quick as they came because of the soon to be new Law.......i have an idea
lets make this law in every state (even though it is a Federal law) and see what happens


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> about 5 years ago i got into it with a Union electrician when i was doing a job that had both Union and non Union workers/companies.....this one guy everyday would always be a typical holier than thou type.....not union then you are a scab....one day we all wound up in the same area eating lunch when this guy would not shut up about how great he was because he was in the Union....and proudly wore his local T-shirt.....well he went to his car for something and when he came back i started in on him like this
> 
> Hey Dude i thought you were union proud and i was just a scab....to which he replied ...."you are" ....so i asked what made me so bad as i asked him not to lean against my truck......his reply "non union workers are stealing our jobs"....so i asked him how he felt about all the jobs he shipped over seas ......enraged at this point he asked "who the Fuck are you to question me" to which i replied I'm the guy that owns the Chevy you were just leaning on.....may i try that on your Honda Rav4.......dude walk away...silently...with all of his brothers just as silent as him....who was un American that day
> 
> 
> i also note that according to the news immigrants are leaving Arizona just as quick as they came because of the soon to be new Law.......i have an idea
> lets make this law in every state (even though it is a Federal law) and see what happens




+1000 Buggs.
I am union and I would never act like that guy.
The News paper here seems to run a "hit" piece everyday about SB1070. They cover all the bases. How this bill will break families up or the toll it will take on kids. Blah blah blah. Right now, everything is speculation. For and against. Its not the perfect cure. Other things need to be done. But it is a start. I am sorry if this breaks families up. But consider how this started. It all started with a person breaking the laws of this country. And made worse by D.C. not doing anything about it. If you go into a Walmart and steal a pot roast, potatos and bread all because you want a "better" dinner its still a crime. I am sure we can all agree that people are entitled to make a better life for themselves. If I lived in Mexico I would want to leave too. But because you want a better life does not give you the right to break our laws. You would not go into a persons home and sit down and refuse to leave. Then tell the home owner that they must feed you and provide health insurance.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Here is todays piece in my AZ newspaper. I hope it will let you guys read the comment. The paper usually wont let you comment on any article that has to do with SB1070. But they are allowing it now. I am willing to bet they will shut off this option later.

Arizona immigration law may increase Phoenix foreclosures


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

i got to the part where it says thousands of illegal immigrants own homes there

i only ask one question.....why do those that knew it was illegal for them to come and stay here expect some form of prosecution and amnesty relief? 
yes according to that article thousands of illegals may lose homes they own......the documents they signed were illegal in most of the cases.......why am i supposed to have sympathy here?......i'm all for people wanting to become American workers......but try coming in the front door instead of the back........then you would get not my sympathy......but my support!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i got to the part where it says thousands of illegal immigrants own homes there
> 
> i only ask one question.....why do those that knew it was illegal for them to come and stay here expect some form of prosecution and amnesty relief?
> yes according to that article thousands of illegals may lose homes they own......the documents they signed were illegal in most of the cases.......why am i supposed to have sympathy here?......i'm all for people wanting to become American workers......but try coming in the front door instead of the back........then you would get not my sympathy......but my support!



You hit it on the head. Many made lots of money from illegals. There was a article about a month ago. Talking about businesses that will be hurt by this law. One was a cellular company. I have no sympathy. If you built your business on a illegal foundation then you were part of the problem and deserve to go under. I have no doubt there are a few racist who support this bill. But most who support it arent racist. We just want the laws enforced. We want them to come here legally and not be a burden on the system. There is nothing unamerican or racist about wanting current laws enforced.


----------



## Adwex

cptnkrunch said:


> I think it's healthy to debate or talk about controversial issues that effect our lives as long as we keep it all in check.



I agree.

I hope you keep it in check, as my threshold for closing/deleting threads that get nasty, and taking disciplinary action against offenders, has been significantly lowered recently.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Adwex said:


> I agree.
> 
> I hope you keep it in check, as my threshold for closing/deleting threads that get nasty, and taking disciplinary action against offenders, has been significantly lowered recently.



I think considering that this is a hot button issue it has been fairly well controlled in here.


----------



## core

Buggs.Crosby said:


> about 5 years ago i got into it with a Union electrician when i was doing a job that had both Union and non Union workers/companies.....this one guy everyday would always be a typical holier than thou type.....not union then you are a scab....one day we all wound up in the same area eating lunch when this guy would not shut up about how great he was because he was in the Union....and proudly wore his local T-shirt.....well he went to his car for something and when he came back i started in on him like this
> 
> Hey Dude i thought you were union proud and i was just a scab....to which he replied ...."you are" ....so i asked what made me so bad as i asked him not to lean against my truck......his reply "non union workers are stealing our jobs"....so i asked him how he felt about all the jobs he shipped over seas ......enraged at this point he asked "who the Fuck are you to question me" to which i replied I'm the guy that owns the Chevy you were just leaning on.....may i try that on your Honda Rav4.......dude walk away...silently...with all of his brothers just as silent as him....who was un American that day
> 
> 
> i also note that according to the news immigrants are leaving Arizona just as quick as they came because of the soon to be new Law.......i have an idea
> lets make this law in every state (even though it is a Federal law) and see what happens



Thanks for the story. Man where does that guy come off with such "entitlement" as if it was his god given right as a union man to get jobs when others cannot.

I say best man for the job union or not and equal opportunity. Isn't that what IS American?


----------



## cptnkrunch

> i also note that according to the news immigrants are leaving Arizona just as quick as they came because of the soon to be new Law.......i have an idea
> lets make this law in every state (even though it is a Federal law) and see what happens


I hope they do, my state Co. is becoming a haven for them and with the new AZ law I'm sure we're going to see the number of illegals increase daily.

Uncle Ted for President! I really like this guy.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjFiHENNf9Q]YouTube - Ted Nugent on Border Security[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I hope they do, my state Co. is becoming a haven for them and with the new AZ law I'm sure we're going to see the number of illegals increase daily.
> 
> Uncle Ted for President! I really like this guy.
> YouTube - Ted Nugent on Border Security



Thx for the post of Ted CAPT.

There was a recent post in another about Ted and his draft dodging days. I dont know if it is true. But I like a lot of the stuff he says now. Im not Repub but I like most of what he has to say.


----------



## Gryphon

One measure that I left out my previous post was to do with provision of services. I left it out as its a bit controversial; but I have always wondered why you can be here in the US illegally and still get:

1) Education
2) Healthcare (via free clinics, and ER as last resort)
3) Social security benefits
4) etc

Please let me know if I'm wrong about 1-3 in any states ...and if you can add to the list, please do. Point is, with the Fed and many States in huge debt, it's odd that we aren't hearing about extensive audits of services provided to ensure the recipients are entitled.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> One measure that I left out my previous post was to do with provision of services. I left it out as its a bit controversial; but I have always wondered why you can be here in the US illegally and still get:
> 
> 1) Education
> 2) Healthcare (via free clinics, and ER as last resort)
> 3) Social security benefits
> 4) etc
> 
> Please let me know if I'm wrong about 1-3 in any states ...and if you can add to the list, please do. Point is, with the Fed and many States in huge debt, it's odd that we aren't hearing about extensive audits of services provided to ensure the recipients are entitled.




This is very tricky. I know this form talking to a social worker. When a illegal has a baby here in AZ, that baby is now a citizen. A social worker is brought into the hospital and gives the baby all the required services. But since the baby is the minor the illegal mother is now the benefactor acting on behalf of the minor child. Since the baby is a citizen of this country I was told it is against the law to deny them this stuff. Meantime nothing is done to the mother that broke our laws to come into this country. Our government would need to not allow "anchor babies". Rand Paul has talked about this recently. He is for (and so am I) fixing this loop hole.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Here is todays SB1070 piece in the AZ newspaper. And it looks like they are allowing comments. As you can see by the comments support of 1070 is about 3 to 1.

Arizona immigration law could overwhelm state's court system, attorneys say


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

again i did not have to read to far into this one....love how those first two lawyers make it clear the courts will become overloaded and warn of the Lawsuit potential....all in an effort to make illegals legal......back log the courts then....those Citizens that sue also no have any reason to bitch about anything..........are all these supporters Republicans?.....they are trying to use the same "Scare Tactics" that the GOP uses

P.S i cant leave a comment.....no need to though as most peoples opinions have already been formed


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> again i did not have to read to far into this one....love how those first two lawyers make it clear the courts will become overloaded and warn of the Lawsuit potential....all in an effort to make illegals legal......back log the courts then....those Citizens that sue also no have any reason to bitch about anything..........are all these supporters Republicans?.....they are trying to use the same "Scare Tactics" that the GOP uses
> 
> P.S i cant leave a comment.....no need to though as most peoples opinions have already been formed



Since the law doesnt go in to effect until late July, everything that is said about what will happen is pure speculation.

Not all supporters are republican. I have talked to many people. Dems, Independents, whites, blacks, hispanics and even a few people who are working towards their citizenship. They all agree that 1070 isnt perfect but its a step in the right direction. Those against 1070 are small in number but the loudest by far. It appears to be some Dems, a few Repubs, every liberal and of course illegals and friends of illegals.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

i was just referring to the care tactics these supporters use......notice they don't mention the strain on the system that exists now because of illegals.....so i guess they are asking us to choose which is worse?......start loading the dockets.....if was a Lawmaker in Arizona there would not be court cases....why is this even mentioned....why are there even court cases?.....
no papers on the bus you go to be dropped of at the border.....again i will say.....if you are here illegally from even Zimbabwe....learn to enjoy Mexico


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i was just referring to the care tactics these supporters use......notice they don't mention the strain on the system that exists now because of illegals.....so i guess they are asking us to choose which is worse?......start loading the dockets.....if was a Lawmaker in Arizona there would not be court cases....why is this even mentioned....why are there even court cases?.....
> no papers on the bus you go to be dropped of at the border.....again i will say.....if you are here illegally from even Zimbabwe....learn to enjoy Mexico



You are correct when brought up the point of the cost that everyone pays for the illegal problem. They never mention it in the articles. I have seen numbers in the area of $338 billion a yr and even higher.
Marty once lived here in AZ. I dont know if he ever worked construction. If he did then I am sure he will verify this. I can tell you back in the 80's INS would show up on a job site with a bus. If you werent legal and you didnt run when they showed up, you were put on the bus and deported. It was common to hear someone yell "la migra" and see illegals run.

But the scare tactics as you mentioned are out of control crazy. They said much the same thing about AZ Employer Sanction law. And none of it came to fruition.


----------



## Gryphon

> Dems, Independents, whites, blacks, hispanics and even a few people who are working towards their citizenship.



I think the majority of law abiding persons going through the immigration process are tired of all the focus on the illegal issue as it diverts attention from the broken process everyone is supposed to follow. When I was I was going through the GC process (4 years) my worst nightmare was some sort of amnesty being approved; in which case a system straining under the load of 7 million legal applicants would then be hit by a 'priority' demand for temporary papers for 10 million illegals. Probably the best argument there is for never, ever, granting amnesty to any of them.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> I think the majority of law abiding persons going through the immigration process are tired of all the focus on the illegal issue as it diverts attention from the broken process everyone is supposed to follow. When I was I was going through the GC process (4 years) my worst nightmare was some sort of amnesty being approved; in which case a system straining under the load of 7 million legal applicants would then be hit by a 'priority' demand for temporary papers for 10 million illegals. Probably the best argument there is for never, ever, granting amnesty to any of them.



I am glad you have taken the time to point things out from your experience. It really is an important part of the debate.
I agree. I am against amnesty for the reason(s) you pointed out. Lets face it, the problem we face is proof amnesty didnt help in the 80's.


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## MartyStrat54

Just as there are those living in our big cities that know every trick to getting a free ride, the same holds true for illegal aliens. The sad part is that they get their info from priests, ministers, sympathetic medical staff and others who feel this need to "help those breaking the law." 

Now if my friend Bob robbed a store and came to hole up in my house and two days later the cops raid my place, I'd have charges brought against me for providing Bob with a safe haven. It's against the law and I would go to court over it.

A lot of illegal aliens time their pregnancy so that when the time is right, they are moved from a church basement in AZ and taken to the hospital. The baby is delivered and it is an American citizen. The mother has to stay now to take care of her American child. Oh, the father? What about the father? Well he needs to be able to see his child. He needs to be let into the country (or walks out of the church basement where he and his wife were hiding.) Oh and the grandparents on both sides, they need to be able to become citizens. The second and third cousins and the aunts and uncles. They need to get a free pass. YOU CAN'T SPLIT UP A FAMILY.

I'm so fed up with people breaking the laws on behalf of illegal aliens and nothing being done about it.

Pretty soon, you are going to see what you saw before. Before the Minutemen, there was an organized radical group. I think you are going to see more of these groups and quite possibly some bloodshed and building fires. These are the things that happen when tensions escalate.

Personally, I'm glad I left Arizona. If I was still there, I would probably be an activist.

Now when I was in the military, they used to be lenient in regard to overseas weddings. Most of the time, once the bride got to the US, she would divorce her American husband. Then, because she was now a naturalized citizen, she would go about getting her entire family in the country. Well a lot of them did it, but the government cracked down on it. Funny, they could crack down on this, but they can't keep illegal aliens from having babies in American hospitals.

Maybe they ought to do what they do at the big airports. Duty and Customs. If an alien came to have a baby, it would be in an area of the hospital that was considered "Non-American Soil." Then the baby would be born into limbo, a child without a country. This would deter all of these "planned" deliveries and put an end to automatic citizenship.

Please don't hate me for this, I'm just an American who is tired of seeing thousands of illegals make a joke out of the laws of this country.


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## cptnkrunch

One thing I don't understand is our elected or appointed officials and law enforcement agencies take oaths to uphold their civil duties to the American people. Why does this seem to apply to everything except illegal immigration? This seems to fall into the "derelict of duty" category doesn't it? I would think someone would be pursuing this avenue in the court of law along with lawsuits for misappropriated funds. 
Short story: Someone I know was painting the social services building here in town and watched a lady (no speekee ingles) go into the building with a baby, came out awhile later, handed the baby to her friend who in turn went into the office and came out in the same time span as the first. When my friend mentioned this to one of the social services worker, he was told to mind his own bussiness. If this isn't abuse of our system I don't know what is. I do know if I hear one more comment about lazy gringos I may go postal on them.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> One thing I don't understand is our elected or appointed officials and law enforcement agencies take oaths to uphold their civil duties to the American people. Why does this seem to apply to everything except illegal immigration? This seems to fall into the "derelict of duty" category doesn't it? I would think someone would be pursuing this avenue in the court of law along with lawsuits for misappropriated funds.
> Short story: Someone I know was painting the social services building here in town and watched a lady (no speekee ingles) go into the building with a baby, came out awhile later, handed the baby to her friend who in turn went into the office and came out in the same time span as the first. When my friend mentioned this to one of the social services worker, he was told to mind his own bussiness. If this isn't abuse of our system I don't know what is. I do know if I hear one more comment about lazy gringos I may go postal on them.



You would think that there would be an avenue of recourse for those affected by this. I.E. the tax payers. And elected officials should be removed from office for not living up to their sworn oath.


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## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Marty once lived here in AZ. I dont know if he ever worked construction. If he did then I am sure he will verify this. I can tell you back in the 80's INS would show up on a job site with a bus. If you werent legal and you didnt run when they showed up, you were put on the bus and deported. It was common to hear someone yell "la migra" and see illegals run.



I moved down to Brownsville, Texas in 1973 and built a bridge from Port Isabel to South Padre Island. The company was hiring illegals and the border patrol would bring a van to the job site about every two weeks. They would all be back in a few days. No one did anything to prevent it and it just kept going like some sort of game. 

No one was screaming then. It wasn't an epidemic. It was like when the killer bees finally made it to Arizona, no one really cared until they were in Tucson or Phoenix and killing someone's dog. Then it was a problem.

Like I said, they know how to utilize social services better than anyone else. I shudder to think how much Arizona is paying out in falsely obtained benefits.

I like what I said earlier in this thread and that is, with all the money that we have loaned to Mexico, we should own it. Why don't we just tell the Mexican government they have defaulted and it is time for the USA to repo Mexico. Sure we would have to get the country under control (something that isn't happening now). Once the gang and drug dealers have all been laid to rest, then we would send in a team to turn all of Mexico into a giant tourist trap. New, multi-million dollar hotels and casinos and fishing, surfing and all that stuff. We could split Mexico up into like six or seven new states and then we would stimulate the economy, because new flags would have to be made and sold and all the history books would need to be revised.

It's a win-win situation. The peso would be changed over to the dollar and the average starting pay would be $8 an hour. No need to go to America, because you already are an American.

Just fantasizing. This would never work, because if you can live without having to work, that is what would happen. "Why should I clean hotel rooms when I can borrow my sister's baby and go get aid at social services." Then I'll get an apartment and food stamps and even money and I won't have to do anything. 

It's just going to get worse.


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## cptnkrunch

> You would think that there would be an avenue of recourse for those affected by this. I.E. the tax payers. And elected officials should be removed from office for not living up to their sworn oath


You would think! Otherwise, the oath is nothing more than a horse and pony show.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> You would think! Otherwise, the oath is nothing more than a horse and pony show.



That is spot on bro.


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## cptnkrunch

> I like what I said earlier in this thread and that is, with all the money that we have loaned to Mexico, we should own it. Why don't we just tell the Mexican government they have defaulted and it is time for the USA to repo Mexico. Sure we would have to get the country under control (something that isn't happening now). Once the gang and drug dealers have all been laid to rest, then we would send in a team to turn all of Mexico into a giant tourist trap. New, multi-million dollar hotels and casinos and fishing, surfing and all that stuff. We could split Mexico up into like six or seven new states and then we would stimulate the economy, because new flags would have to be made and sold and all the history books would need to be revised.


 I have thought along these same lines. How does one of the poorer countries in the world sit next to one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world and remain poor? I feel it's by choice, they don't want to fix their broken and corrupt system and I'm not sure why. If they played their cards right and really wanted to fix their chit, America has(or had) the resources to help them restructure their country........ it seems easier for them to turn their back on their country and swim across the river. The odd thing with Mexico is they have a very strong and proud (at least thats what they lead everyone to believe) cultural heritage but they don't seem willing to fight the good fight and fix the country their so proud of? 
I thought it somewhat humorous when they held their protest ralley on Tue a few yrs ago wearing white shirts and flying mexican flags, after the backlash they received they now show up with American flags. Just another form of manipulation targeted at our country in the name of give me for free. Do they really think we're that stupid? You don't have to answer that.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I have thought along these same lines. How does one of the poorer countries in the world sit next to one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world and remain poor? I feel it's by choice, they don't want to fix their broken and corrupt system and I'm not sure why. If they played their cards right and really wanted to fix their chit, America has(or had) the resources to help them restructure their country........ it seems easier for them to turn their back on their country and swim across the river. The odd thing with Mexico is they have a very strong and proud (at least thats what they lead everyone to believe) cultural heritage but they don't seem willing to fight the good fight and fix the country their so proud of?
> I thought it somewhat humerous when they held their protest ralley on Tue a few yrs ago wearing white shirts and flying mexican flags, after the backlash they received they now show up with American flags. Just another form of manipulation targeted at our country in the name of give me for free. Do they really think we're that stupid? You don't have to answer that.



Its not that they thing we are that stupid. They know our "leaders" are that weak. ACLU and and the left have gone a long way in making this country weak. When I say left please dont think that I am on the right. I want to do what is in this countrys best interest and I dont believe there a popular political party that does that. Our 2 popular parties have really fucked things up. We need to put more Independents and Libertarians in office. Until we as a country do that the country will never be fixed. The last election cycle was a backlash against the Repubs. We have seen the BS the Dems have created in last than 24 months. Some of the power will shift back to the right. But both sides are the problem. Nothing will ever change if we allow this to continue.


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## Gryphon

I'm told there are huge risks associated with a US (or any foreign) company opening a business in Mexico. Shame, otherwise with some investment in factories and agriculture we could get cheap goods from a closer source than China, and they would get decent jobs while staying in Mexico.


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## MartyStrat54

There will come a point when the law will be dished out by very angry Americans with an agenda. They will be armed with riot shotguns and AK47's with 40 round clips. Like in the early days of the Revolutionary War, they will use a "hit and run" tactic and it will be very effective. What it takes is someone who is willing to look at an illegal as a militant and as such, there will be bloodshed. This could cause an epidemic of militia groups to join in the fight.

Right now, some of these groups are heavily funded by ranchers and farmers. It could ignite at any time. Some of these groups are as far north as Arkansas and Kansas, Kentucky and Tennessee.

There is a huge illegal population in Arkansas, because of Tyson Foods and now there are several militia's that are starting to voice their dislike over what has happened.

Once the first assault has occurred, there will be many more to follow with local law enforcement not really getting too involved.


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## cptnkrunch

> There will come a point when the law will be dished out by very angry Americans with an agenda. They will be armed with riot shotguns and AK47's with 40 round clips. Like in the early days of the Revolutionary War, they will use a "hit and run" tactic and it will be very effective. What it takes is someone who is willing to look at an illegal as a militant and as such, there will be bloodshed. This could cause an epidemic of militia groups to join in the fight.
> 
> Right now, some of these groups are heavily funded by ranchers and farmers. It could ignite at any time. Some of these groups are as far north as Arkansas and Kansas, Kentucky and Tennessee.
> 
> There is a huge illegal population in Arkansas, because of Tyson Foods and now there are several militia's that are starting to voice their dislike over what has happened.
> 
> Once the first assault has occurred, there will be many more to follow with local law enforcement not really getting too involved



This happened a few miles from where I live about 9 yrs ago. This dude snapped, although it sounds like he was 1/2 snapped to begin with. It was definitely down played in the media here.

The Militant - July 23, 2001 -- 2,000 in Colorado protest racist killing of Mexican workers


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## longfxukxnhair

When you combine illegal immigration with the size of govt, spending, economy and people feeling like Washington isnt representing them bad things are going to happen. I really feel like we as a country are way off track. Either we continue down this path or we change it. I think the numbers are in favor of changing it.


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## Buggs.Crosby

any of you guys find this story a bit ironic?
Video: Matador arrested after fleeing ring during bullfight - Y! Sports Blogs - Yahoo! Sports


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> any of you guys find this story a bit ironic?
> Video: Matador arrested after fleeing ring during bullfight - Y! Sports Blogs - Yahoo! Sports



I had my money on the bull.


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## Buggs.Crosby

i was referring to the part were he was arrested for jumping the fence to escape.....does that not make Mexican authorities hypocrites?.....you can jump a fence to save yourself from Mexico itself but not to save your self from a bull.....how about if we start fining the Mexican government for every individual that crosses the border? .....$1000 fine for each count = millions back into our economy


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i was referring to the part were he was arrested for jumping the fence to escape.....does that not make Mexican authorities hypocrites?.....you can jump a fence to save yourself from Mexico itself but not to save your self from a bull.....how about if we start fining the Mexican government for every individual that crosses the border? .....$1000 fine for each count = millions back into our economy



I got it bro. But I always pull for the bull. 
While your idea makes sense it would fail. It would be nothing more than a running bill that Mexico owes the US that they would never pay.
I find it amazing that lawyers can sue for coffee being to hot but no one has sued our government on this issue. Surely there are enough tax payers who have been "damaged" by illegals in this country that a class action suit is warranted.


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## Buggs.Crosby

your right it would go unpaid....that's why you put tariffs on the goods that leave Mexico
our government should be putting pressure on the Mexican government to help stop the flow of migrants.......if not start putting pressure on US companies that do business there to pull out


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> your right it would go unpaid....that's why you put tariffs on the goods that leave Mexico
> our government should be putting pressure on the Mexican government to help stop the flow of migrants.......if not start putting pressure on US companies that do business there to pull out



You are right. 
While we sit here and talk about there are a few questions goes unasked. What does our government have to gain from not enforcing the immigration law? Why does the federal government allow sanctuary cities? Why does the government not listen to the majority (51%+) of people who want the laws enforced. Az is not creating a new immigration policy. They only wish to enforce the current laws. Why is big brother stepping in? What about states rights in all of this? 
If AZ wanted to execute all illegals then I could understand why the feds would step in. Current federal law makes it a felony but AZ law makes it a misdemeanor. AZ is to turn over all illegals to I.C.E. as is the current federal policy. AZ raises the bar on what is considered "reasonable suspicion" compared to federal policy. This law is not racial profiling. Yet the argument from those against say it is. The law doesnt go into affect until the end of July. Their argument is based on nothing more than speculation. Why the misinformation? And more importantly, where is it coming from? 

You have a sitting president who has made outrageous claims about the law. Then we find out later that at the time of the comment he has not read the bill. Same goes for the AG and head of Homeland Security. Dont get me wrong here, Bush didnt do anything about it either. In fact, he was for amnesty. That didnt go through. But this isnt about Bush. This is Obama's watch.
I cant help but think I am watching the willful destruction of the once greatest country on earth in the history of mankind. Our founding fathers must be turning in their graves.


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## Buggs.Crosby

No it's not about Obama or Bush.....its about our Congressmen and Senators......they need to enact an enforcement policy.....then if our sitting President Veto's it i will start pointing fingers....the President may have the final say.....but until you drop it on his desk there is no blame.....sure he could make a policy and push it down the ladder......but it is more effective to go up...not down


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> No it's not about Obama or Bush.....its about our Congressmen and Senators......they need to enact an enforcement policy.....then if our sitting President Veto's it i will start pointing fingers....the President may have the final say.....but until you drop it on his desk there is no blame.....sure he could make a policy and push it down the ladder......but it is more effective to go up...not down



The president is to blame. He could mobilize the National Guard to protect the border. Now he has said he is sending 1200 NG troops to the border. But its not to curb illegal crossing. It for drug trafficking and violence. Those were his words and I expect those troops to do as he instructed.
What you speak of is new immigration policy that would have to be created and approved by the House and the Senate. There is nothing stopping Obama or any sitting president to take action against this. The laws are already on the books. But no one is stepping up to enforce them. And the president swore a oath to protect and defend this country. When Nappy was governor here she wrote letters to Bush asking for help on our border. Now that she is head of Homeland she says the border is more secure than it has ever been. And we know this to not be true.
Where the sanctuary cities are is not a secret. The president could send officials in there to enforce the federal laws. But he doesnt.

The president doesnt need congress to do anything if he wants to enforce current law.


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## Buggs.Crosby

you do realize the Governor of Arizona has more control over the National Guard than the president does correct?.....why has she not put them on the border?....she has that power


here it is in black and white

Established under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code, state National Guard serves as part of the first-line defense for the United States. The state National Guard is divided up into units stationed in each of the 50 states and U.S. territories and operates under their respective state governor or territorial adjutant general. The National Guard may be called up for active duty by state governors or territorial adjutant general to help respond to domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes.


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## Buggs.Crosby

She could also order them into these "sanctuary cities" to police them and uphold the law


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> you do realize the Governor of Arizona has more control over the National Guard than the president does correct?.....why has she not put them on the border?....she has that power
> 
> 
> here it is in black and white
> 
> Established under Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code, state National Guard serves as part of the first-line defense for the United States. The state National Guard is divided up into units stationed in each of the 50 states and U.S. territories and operates under their respective state governor or territorial adjutant general. The National Guard may be called up for active duty by state governors or territorial adjutant general to help respond to domestic emergencies and disasters, such as those caused by hurricanes, floods, and earthquakes.



That is what we are led to believe. But if she orders them then the state has to pay for it. This is a federal problem and AZ doesnt have the money to pay the NG to do what the federal govt has failed to do. She is insisting the feds pay for it and I dont blame her. She could order it and send the bill to the fed govt. Gov Nappy did this with jailing illegals but she never got paid back.


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## Buggs.Crosby

after more reading i found this out....the State pays the National Guard until they are deployed....so why not use what you are already paying for?....yes its a federal issue but if you are already paying them why not use them?..............again force the hand


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## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm just an American who is tired of seeing thousands of illegals make a joke out of the laws of this country.



Amen.


Somehow I've not posted yet in this thread, but then again my opinion is pretty simple - I agree with the new law and hope that other states adopt the same policies. 

Perhaps we can use that $500 billion (or however much) from tossing out the illegals to finish building the big wall.


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## cptnkrunch

If AZ was to declare a state of emergency (and I highly doubt AZ could stand alone and do this with all the Civil Liberty groups and International human rights agreements we have) what about the other state's that this would have a negative effect? Illegal immigration is a national problem not just an AZ issue and until it's addressed as such I don't see much resolution to the overall problem. If you only enforce and secure a section of our border and not all of it, you are just creating more problems and punishing other state's that have equal issues with illegal immigration as AZ does. Ultimately the illegal immigration issues is something that the Federal government will have to deal with and pay for, not something that is dealt with on a state to state basis. It is an urgent issue that needs immediate attention but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Big Bro.


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> after more reading i found this out....the State pays the National Guard until they are deployed....so why not use what you are already paying for?....yes its a federal issue but if you are already paying them why not use them?..............again force the hand



Being on the payroll is much different than the cost of being deployed. I am not sure how much of a diff in cost. I cant get that info. But thats what is being said here.


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> If AZ was to declare a state of emergency (and I highly doubt AZ could stand alone and do this with all the Civil Liberty groups and International human rights agreements we have) what about the other state's that this would have a negative effect? Illegal immigration is a national problem not just an AZ issue and until it's addressed as such I don't see much resolution to the overall problem. If you only enforce and secure a section of our border and not all of it, you are just creating more problems and punishing other state's that have equal issues with illegal immigration as AZ does. Ultimately the illegal immigration issues is something that the Federal government will have to deal with and pay for, not something that is dealt with on a state to state basis. It is an urgent issue that needs immediate attention but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Big Bro.



My understanding is years ago the majority were coming across by San Diego. Now they have their fence up 60% comes through AZ. But if we plug the hole it will just happen else where. So you are right when you say the fed govt needs to do something about it on a grand scale.


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## Buggs.Crosby

cptnkrunch said:


> If AZ was to declare a state of emergency (and I highly doubt AZ could stand alone and do this with all the Civil Liberty groups and International human rights agreements we have) what about the other state's that this would have a negative effect? Illegal immigration is a national problem not just an AZ issue and until it's addressed as such I don't see much resolution to the overall problem. If you only enforce and secure a section of our border and not all of it, you are just creating more problems and punishing other state's that have equal issues with illegal immigration as AZ does. Ultimately the illegal immigration issues is something that the Federal government will have to deal with and pay for, not something that is dealt with on a state to state basis. It is an urgent issue that needs immediate attention but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Big Bro.



Yes but what is happening now?....1070 is doing almost the same thing....they are leaving in fear....Texas will follow suit soon....so will California when Arnold the Immigrant is out of office.....i like Arnold...but he is destroying California.....should be a lesson learned and a new federal law...No non natural born citizen may run for any office higher a state assembly where they can voice and implement concerns without using their Culture as a backdrop on other constituents

not sure if i phrased the above they way i wanted ....but i hope it comes across correctly


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## cptnkrunch

The thing is, we could build a giant wall, dig a moat, fill it with gators and phiranas and your still going to have an immigration problem. Until they start dealing with the ones that are already here, not much is going to change. Stop giving them jobs, welfare, medical, education, benifit's and rights that only american citizens should receive, punish employers who hire them and then maybe they may get the message their free rides over. We do need to secure the border ASAP but thats only the beginning of what needs to happen in the big picture or we could play cowboys and mexicans and be done with it. I do feel sorry for the latino's that are here legally and or trying to be legal thru the right channels as they are getting profiled and thrown into the same body bag as the illegals that are fuck'n the system. I don't feel that is fair to the ones that are trying to do it the right way.


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## cptnkrunch

> not sure if i phrased the above they way i wanted ....but i hope it comes across correctly


Si sinoir buggs I comprende.


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## Gryphon

> ...should be a lesson learned and a new federal law...No non natural born citizen may run for any office higher a state assembly where they can voice and implement concerns without using their Culture as a backdrop on other constituents



Are you telling me I cant run for Governor?? Ah c'mon.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Gryphon said:


> Are you telling me I cant run for Governor?? Ah c'mon.



LOL

Sadly yes.....that is the way it should be and i'm not trying to be a prick
Arnold being an immigrant makes him a sympathizer..how has California benefited from that?. one of the richest states in the country is basically bankrupt......and that should not be. i feel bad for some of these immigrants (some)...but i don't need to my government policy to bend because of sympathy ......again a State assembly is ok because they do not hold the right kind of power to make things happen on a grand scale....but they can bring up issues worth considering

again i have no problem with legal immigration that is what built our nation...illegal immigration is helping to destroy it....we don't need the help...we are doing that just fine on our own


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## cptnkrunch

> again i have no problem with legal immigration that is what built our nation...illegal immigration is helping to destroy it....we don't need the help...we are doing that just fine on our own



Just to add, when immigrants came here many, many yrs ago legally and illegally from countries like Italy, Ireland, Scotland, etc. they didn't get off the boat and start requesting the American people to pay for their medical, housing, food, education etc. Most paid their dues and worked very hard to become Americans and help build this country. You cannot compare them to the new generation of immigrants that just come here for the free ride but want nothing to do with the hard work it takes to have such benefits and privileges, as their to focused on how they can manipulate and abuse our system.


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## Gryphon

> Sadly yes.....that is the way it should be and i'm not trying to be a prick
> Arnold being an immigrant makes him a sympathizer



Not a very good assumption, sorry. As I said earlier, most immigrants are really annoyed with the illegals because it diverts attention from what needs to be fixed - the legislation and the process. 

Just because your parent / grandparents got here before he did doesn't mean that you'd be an unbiased Governor, or Arnold a biased one. The fact that he went through the system actually makes him better qualified to discuss immigration than the majority of citizens that didn't. 

It's astounding how little the average citizen knows about the process: best example of that recently is the new 'outrageous' requirement for all immigrants to carry their GC at all times in Arizona - which of course is Federal law, but hardly anyone knew that.


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## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> Not a very good assumption, sorry. As I said earlier, most immigrants are really annoyed with the illegals because it diverts attention from what needs to be fixed - the legislation and the process.
> 
> Just because your parent / grandparents got here before he did doesn't mean that you'd be an unbiased Governor, or Arnold a biased one. The fact that he went through the system actually makes him better qualified to discuss immigration than the majority of citizens that didn't.
> 
> It's astounding how little the average citizen knows about the process: best example of that recently is the new 'outrageous' requirement for all immigrants to carry their GC at all times in Arizona - which of course is Federal law, but hardly anyone knew that.




I knew about the GC.
What bothers me about Arnold (besides the fact that he is a progressive repub) is the oath to the Austrian army he had to take when he was younger.


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## longfxukxnhair

At least $800M spent for 53-mile 'virtual' border fence


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## cptnkrunch

I have a virtual bridge I'd let go for only $100m if anyone's interested.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Gryphon said:


> Just because your parent / grandparents got here before he did doesn't mean that you'd be an unbiased Governor, or Arnold a biased one. The fact that he went through the system actually makes him better qualified to discuss immigration than the majority of citizens that didn't.




You are sorta correct....but i'm mare than 50% Native American so a majority of my blood has always been here

as far as better qualifies no......again i will refer to the assembly i have no issue there as it is the best place to make a statement....now his 2nd or maybe 3rd generation i would have no problem with.....but to be a 1st generation i would say discussion is good......decision making is not.....sorry but i am a natural born and don't need an immigrant making important decisions for me and my country....as has been proven by that one guy in Arizona (LH help me with his name)....or Arnold who take the sympathetic route as he has already proven to do.....sorry but track records prove my statements to an extent.....i'm not willing to find out if this will continue


as it is now legal immigrants are not allowed to vote unless you become a citizen first.....imagine if they were ...our immigration laws would be shattered to pieces.....again sorry if i offend you as it is not my intention
but a non U.S citizen should have no say whatsoever on how and what we decide


would the people of England allow me as an immigrant to vote out the Queen and her family?.......am i allowed to vote in Mexico or any other south American country?......then why should we allow it.....sorry while i welcome you here legally and think you should have some rights that matter we speak of you should not.....again sorry.....you may side with me 100% on these issues.....but what happens when we allow someone who does not?...the i as an American born citizen will become a minority my own country.....i will fight to my death before that happens


and no Arnold should not have been allowed to be elected....citizen or not he was and is a 1st generation immigrant....ask the residents of California what they think about the decisions he has made regarding this issue


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## Gryphon

I never suggested that immigrants should be able to vote or serve in public office - that is reserved for US citizens and no-one is advocating otherwise. 

I'm a taxpaying resident of CA and think that Arnold did all he could given the ineptitude of those filling the House and Senate of CA. It will be the same when Meg Whitman gets in - all the right ideas, but only one third of the power.


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Arizona (LH help me with his name)
> 
> Luis Gutierrez?


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## longfxukxnhair

I found this posting. I find that it hits the nail on the head.

Mr. "O" and his band of gypsies like to say one thing and do another. I believe if they had a case they would have filed already, it's only ten pages. I also believe that if they go forward with this, it will cost them even more in November.

This was written by a Hispainc who is now a naturalized US Citizen, it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue. 

Here is the quote: 

"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland , or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed. 

Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors. Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating, and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price! 

In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA ", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he has sworn to do. 

My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit, and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation. Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning those illegal activities." 


Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona . 

This makes perfect sense to me. What do you think? 

Since Obama has never shown his ticket I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs.


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## Gryphon

It's a very good analogy, but unfortunately the last para leaps to an unreasonable conclusion - that if you dont want to show your papers, you condone the criminal acts associated with illegal immigration. 

But he raises a good point on the 'papers' issue; as a immigrant, Federal law requires me to carry my GC at all times. In CA, the driver license is the normal form of ID, but I do not think it directly discloses immigration status or citizenship. What form of ID, if any, would all you US citizens we prepared to carry so you can 'show your ticket'?


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## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> It's a very good analogy, but unfortunately the last para leaps to an unreasonable conclusion - that if you dont want to show your papers, you condone the criminal acts associated with illegal immigration.
> 
> But he raises a good point on the 'papers' issue; as a immigrant, Federal law requires me to carry my GC at all times. In CA, the driver license is the normal form of ID, but I do not think it directly discloses immigration status or citizenship. What form of ID, if any, would all you US citizens we prepared to carry so you can 'show your ticket'?



I am not for a national ID. But as you said, you are required to carry your documents with you as per federal law. This is where it gets ugly. I have no accent and I speak English. That right there will squash "reasonable suspicion" on all levels. I have nice new cars and have them licensed and insured. I obey the laws of the road. I have no reason to be pulled over. Just from talking and looking at me, there would be no reason to ask for my "ticket". I am not the one who must conform. 
I remember this guy who worked on a job site by me. He had a Datsun B210. Just falling apart. He had a Mexico license plate. Mexico flag sticker on his back window. And had a sticker of a bull on each door. This doesnt make him illegal. But if he gets pulled over and cant speak English and hands the officer a Mexico drivers license, that is reasonable suspicion. Is this racist? It sure is if you are targeting Mexicans. But if Hans from Germany does the same thing the law applies to him too. At that point both better have their required papers. If not then they will be considered illegal. Now I never drive without my license. And G, I am sure you never leave without your proper paper work. And I understand accidents happen. Some people will get caught who forgot their paper work on that day. And they should be able to get it straightened out. They at that point should learn a valuable lesson. 

This has reached a point where excuses just wont cut it anymore. I believe those (such as yourself) are going through the proper/legal routine. And because you are I doubt very seriously you would be willing to risk what you have worked so hard for by forgetting your documents on a daily basis.

In other countries I hear you can be stopped on the street and asked for papers. Thats not what we are asking for here in America. But if one is stopped for a crime (traffic or otherwise) then if there is reasonable suspicion then it is on the person to prove they are here legally. They must present their "ticket". If I would some how get caught up in that I can produce my birth certificate. And I can live with that.

I understand its not a perfect system. There are flaws. But something has to be done about this. Citizens and those working towards it are being fucked by those who could care less. And now they want to push their way to the front of the line. At your expense. I know a German woman who just got her citizenship. She was sworn in just days before Memorial Day. I think she knows more about the founding fathers than most kids do. She understands what makes America great. She also sees this country becoming more like Europe. Most kids (not mine) cant see it. If our founding fathers wanted to be like Europe they wouldnt have put everything they had on the line. They wanted something better. True freedom. Where the individual matters and not the collective. There is a collective (illegals) who are screwing us individuals.


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> Since Obama has never shown his ticket I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs.



do you really think he has not shown his paper work?.....he had to just to put his name on a ballot and i'm talking all the way back to Chicago.....now if it was true that he does not have what was needed who failed?....blaming Obama will not get anything done...what is this his 1st year in office?...GW had 8 years to do it....Clinton had 8.....George Sr had 8.....Reagan had 8....thats a full 24 years of failure.....you want to blame a guy after only 1?.....blame the Pubs here.....how many fillabusters have they tried to pull so far?....they are about to set a record for it....an ugly record at that....blaming 1 guy when 100 others consistently go against him is what our countries problem is.....who is really to blame?

when Sara visited Arizona on the immigration issue did she mention deporting all the illegals back to New Mexico?.....she is there stirring up a topic she knows nothing about....how many illegals migrate to Alaska?....she has an agenda.....make the other side look bad at any cost ...even if they are right in that situation........how does that help us as a nation?.....last time i checked it only divides us....whose best interest does that serve?.....surely not GQ public....or should i say Joe the plumber


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> do you really think he has not shown his paper work?.....he had to just to put his name on a ballot and i'm talking all the way back to Chicago.....now if it was true that he does not have what was needed who failed?....blaming Obama will not get anything done...what is this his 1st year in office?...GW had 8 years to do it....Clinton had 8.....George Sr had 8.....Reagan had 8....thats a full 24 years of failure.....you want to blame a guy after only 1?.....blame the Pubs here.....how many fillabusters have they tried to pull so far?....they are about to set a record for it....an ugly record at that....blaming 1 guy when 100 others consistently go against him is what our countries problem is.....who is really to blame?
> 
> when Sara visited Arizona on the immigration issue did she mention deporting all the illegals back to New Mexico?.....she is there stirring up a topic she knows nothing about....how many illegals migrate to Alaska?....she has an agenda.....make the other side look bad at any cost ...even if they are right in that situation........how does that help us as a nation?.....last time i checked it only divides us....whose best interest does that serve?.....surely not GQ public....or should i say Joe the plumber




I think enough doubt has been raised. He should just show the long form and get it over with. I am not a birther. But the longer he continues to keep his school records sealed and refuses to show the American people the long form of his birth certificate, the more it looks suspicious. But what you quoted from my post arent my words. I didnt feel the need to edit his post.

And like I have said all along, both sides are to blame for this. We know from the past that a Repub president gave amnesty and we also know it doesnt work. We need not go down that path again.

We know this current admin is about big govt. The left believes big govt is the answer to all problems. The answer here is enforcement not reform. They have enough on the payroll to do what is required. But in this case they dont want govt to get involved? WTF


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## Buggs.Crosby

for those against big government....would it have not been cheaper to pay 1 million a year (approx) for the oversight of the financial industry than the 800 billion it cost us....same goes for the spill in the gulf.....they let big oil decide on how our energy policy should be written....because they were the experts.....how well did that work

as far as Obama showing his papers he has the right to withhold them....that was a policy adopted by the Pubs......the reason would were not able to get GW's military records........why are we not allowed to see the actual recount in Florida?.....who is hiding what?.....people with an agenda with something to hide......again if Obama is not legal....who is to blame?.....i believe at that time the Whitehouse....Senate and Congress were all a Republican majority.....so who failed?....the same people that suggested using scare tactics to win elections instead of fighting on the real issues like Immigration


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> for those against big government....would it have not been cheaper to pay 1 million a year (approx) for the oversight of the financial industry than the 800 billion it cost us....same goes for the spill in the gulf.....they let big oil decide on how our energy policy should be written....because they were the experts.....how well did that work
> 
> as far as Obama showing his papers he has the right to withhold them....that was a policy adopted by the Pubs......the reason would were not able to get GW's military records........why are we not allowed to see the actual recount in Florida?.....who is hiding what?.....people with an agenda with something to hide......again if Obama is not legal....who is to blame?.....i believe at that time the Whitehouse....Senate and Congress were all a Republican majority.....so who failed?....the same people that suggested using scare tactics to win elections instead of fighting on the real issues like Immigration



And like I said. The problem for all of the countrys problems fall to both sides. It will be this way until we reform campaign finance. Allow equal access to the ballot box for ALL parties. Term limits and so on. Repub and Dem are different wings on the same bird. This financial mess is the doing of both parties from the 90's. But those in power now want you to think its all repub. Thats just an example.


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> It will be this way until we reform campaign finance. Allow equal access to the ballot box for ALL parties. Term limits and so on.


.never work.....if the Dems...the only ones truly for these measures (big government) even bring it up it will be filibustered.....like it or not when the Dems tried this in the past the majority (pubs) out voted them...now they filibuster it....make the majority all Dems again and watch it happen....now i'm not saying by any means that their are no Dems with special interests.....but they would never allow big oil to right our energy policy.....how much money was made off the war in Iraq?.....who was the main contractor?......who ran that company before being elected?....do you really believe Cheney had nothing to do with them after he was elected?......GW was a pawn in a financial chess game

now i am also against big government to an extent as i enjoy my constitutional freedom....to get a better immigration policy would require more government oversight.......and what party is 100% against that?


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> .never work.....if the Dems...the only ones truly for these measures (big government) even bring it up it will be filibustered.....like it or not when the Dems tried this in the past the majority (pubs) out voted them...now they filibuster it....make the majority all Dems again and watch it happen....now i'm not saying by any means that their are no Dems with special interests.....but they would never allow big oil to right our energy policy.....how much money was made off the war in Iraq?.....who was the main contractor?......who ran that company before being elected?....do you really believe Cheney had nothing to do with them after he was elected?......GW was a pawn in a financial chess game
> 
> now i am also against big government to an extent as i enjoy my constitutional freedom....to get a better immigration policy would require more government oversight.......and what party is 100% against that?



It would not require more govt oversight. It would require the govt to act. Which we can both agree to that they havent done this.

I am pro small govt. The Fed govt is to act on the states behalf. To provide certain things. They have used the commerce clause and Supremecy clause to usurp power. The fed govt act like it is the boss and state govts are nothing more than branch offices. This "health care reform" is a current example.


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## Buggs.Crosby

But it will require bigger government.....in the form of more immigration officers just on the smaller end of the scale...on the lager would be a reform policy witch would require an oversight committee....and there decisions would be based off an inter office panel to come up with better solutions to help make it work.....that panel would be called "Big Government" in most circles....the reason for that panel would be to better determine what is wrong and ways to fix it......a job no one in office is qualified to do without prejudice


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> But it will require bigger government.....in the form of more immigration officers just on the smaller end of the scale...on the lager would be a reform policy witch would require an oversight committee....and there decisions would be based off an inter office panel to come up with better solutions to help make it work.....that panel would be called "Big Government" in most circles....the reason for that panel would be to better determine what is wrong and ways to fix it......a job no one in office is qualified to do without prejudice



I disagre. We all know government does not run efficiently. It never has and never will. Government is only a consumer of wealth. Nothing else. If I could spend 2 years watching and taking notes on the inside I know I could trim it all.


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## longfxukxnhair

Goodard, the AG for Az and the democratic front runner for the dem nom for the AZ governors race has stepped aside in defending SB1070. He was clearly against SB1070 but tried to convince Brewer he was up for the challenge of defending the bill. Can you say conflict of interest? Good thing he has decided to step down as AZ fight against those who want this law gone.

Goddard withdraws as lawyer in immigration suits


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## Las Palmas Norte

I wonder what the cost of the Utah execution of Ronnie Lee Gardner was. (I know a whole new topic). You know it wasn't cheap even though most folks equate only the cost of the bullets. Nothing these day comes without a hefty price tag.

Cheers, Barrie.


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## Buggs.Crosby

Las Palmas Norte said:


> I wonder what the cost of the Utah execution of Ronnie Lee Gardner was. (I know a whole new topic). You know it wasn't cheap even though most folks equate only the cost of the bullets. Nothing these day comes without a hefty price tag.
> 
> Cheers, Barrie.



less cost and less "inhumane" than anything else.....lethal injection requires a expensive doctor to administer......5 shots to the heart is more humane (dead in an instant) and a local cop can be chosen at normal pay........no issue with me on that one.......electrocute or inject them their eyes will blow or they will shit themselves.........someone has to clean it up and i did not do it.....so it works for me


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## Gryphon

Previous 2 posts not relevant to immigration.


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## Las Palmas Norte

True .. I admit. My thoughts drifted towards government administrative costs and current events. My apologies man!

Cheers, Barrie.


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## longfxukxnhair

Todays piece in the paper. Im getting to the point I just dont read them now.

Arizona immigration law makes state ground zero for activism


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## Buggs.Crosby

this quote is exactly why amnesty should not be granted
"Alfredo Amezcua, attorney and member of Los Amigos, said the group met with local Latinos to emphasize the need for eligible immigrants to become citizens and registered voters"

grant them all amnesty and watch them vote Americans right out of office


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> this quote is exactly why amnesty should not be granted
> "Alfredo Amezcua, attorney and member of Los Amigos, said the group met with local Latinos to emphasize the need for eligible immigrants to become citizens and registered voters"
> 
> grant them all amnesty and watch them vote Americans right out of office



I am not so concerned with amnesty at this point. We are less than 6 months away from the election and the Dems really dont want to touch it. They spent so much time on this so called health care reform that they screwed up on this issue. Lucky for the US. Had they pushed health care through last summer I have no doubt they would have tackled immigration "reform". They would of had the time to weather the storm. Now they dont have that time. Dems will lose seats in Nov. Not likely they will lose control of the House but the Senate, its hard to say. Either way "the party of No" as you have put it will be better able to stop the whole sale destruction of this country. No one party should have complete control as the Dems do now. Its not good for the country.


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## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> t. No one party should have complete control as the Dems do now. Its not good for the country.



I agree....the Pubs have proven this to be fact!.....under their control we sent 800 billion to bail out banks that were ripping off us citizens.....and we still cannot get loans

sorry while i do hate some Dems and their actions....the one that will get me is wanting to Impeach Clinton for a Blow job.......yet Bush....allowed torture....big oil to make our energy policy....and allowed wire taps without warrants.....and i don't remember Monica complaining about it!


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## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> I agree....the Pubs have proven this to be fact!.....under their control we sent 800 billion to bail out banks that were ripping off us citizens.....and we still cannot get loans
> 
> sorry while i do hate some Dems and their actions....the one that will get me is wanting to Impeach Clinton for a Blow job.......yet Bush....allowed torture....big oil to make our energy policy....and allowed wire taps without warrants.....and i don't remember Monica complaining about it!



I didnt care if Clinton got a blow job. I thought it was partisan BS. Hell, after looking at Hillary, Monica was a upgrade.

Have you noticed that no matter which party it is, they are always pushing "their agenda"? Pushing their ideology? Its never what is best for Americans. If it were we would have real health care reform. We would have immigration laws enforced. Bankers never would have received a bail out as most of America was against it. "They" threatened us with martial law if the bail out didnt go through. Buggs, if you look on my MySpace profile there is a clip. In that vid clip a congressman is talking about a bill. As he reads the bill, at the end he reads and I quote "the new bill of rights will be created and approved by classified".


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## cptnkrunch

> the one that will get me is wanting to Impeach Clinton for a Blow job



Kenneth Star spent millions of taxpayer dollars on this one.


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## cptnkrunch

NYT: Feds target Ariz. immigration law - The New York Times- msnbc.com


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> NYT: Feds target Ariz. immigration law - The New York Times- msnbc.com



LMFAO! It comes from NYT and MSNBC. Both are at this point, propaganda arms for the White House.
Let them bring their suit. If it fails (and I believe it will because it doesnt create a new immigration policy) you will see many other states follow AZ's lead.


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## cptnkrunch

Here's what it takes for the Feds to detain you for illegal entry into the US. Two men detained in weapons bust | Pro 8 News.com - News, Weather, Sports - Laredo, Texas | The Buzz On 8


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Here's what it takes for the Feds to detain you for illegal entry into the US. Two men detained in weapons bust | Pro 8 News.com - News, Weather, Sports - Laredo, Texas | The Buzz On 8



Entering the country illegally and with 140 assault rifles too. 10 and 45 days in jail. What a fucking insult to the American people!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Buggs.Crosby

actually releasing them that soon i thing for these two reasons alone could be a good thing for these two reasons alone
1. why pay to keep them locked up in our prisons....save the money because of #2
2. unless they were working for themselves (doubt it) they will have to answer to who they were working for and will most likely be killed....possibly their families as well


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## cptnkrunch

I would be very suprised if these guys are out that soon. I'm sure the Feds used this to hold them while they produce further charges they know will stick, at least I would hope so. Whatever happens I'd say their screwed because If they do turn evidence and rat, Buggs reason #2 will be on the money and that may happen regardless.


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## Buggs.Crosby

WTF did i type?....my editing skills are going astray


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## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I would be very suprised if these guys are out that soon. I'm sure the Feds used this to hold them while they produce further charges they know will stick, at least I would hope so. Whatever happens I'd say their screwed because If they do turn evidence and rat, Buggs reason #2 will be on the money and that may happen regardless.



If anyone runs across more info, keep us posted please.


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## MartyStrat54

But you have to ask yourself, "Who were the guns meant for?" That was a considerable amount of firepower and I concluded the ammo was all the same so they probably had SKS's and AK47's. These are the weapons of choice for gang bangers. The guns could have been funded by a Mexican Drug Cartel with affiliation to a certain Hispanic gang. Well guess what is now in our border towns? Yep, certain Hispanic gangs. They are fighting other gangs for control of the drug traffic which is exactly what the big Mexican Drug Lords want. They want one gang to handle it all. Now the nastiest of the bunch that was already in Phoenix by 2000 was the Sinaloa "Cowboys." Very ruthless. I remember they gunned down eight people in a bar because they got disrespected. The bar never reopened. Here is the scoop on these guys. They are infested in Tucson, Casa Grande and Phoenix. Also in Flagstaff as they "protect" their drug trade up I-17 to I-40. 

The Sinaloa Cowboys Gang

The Sinaloa Cowboys are drug traffickers, mostly from the Mexican States of Sinaloa, Baja California, Chihuahua, Coahuila, Durango, Michoacan, Nuevo Leon and Sonora. The Cowboys are very loyal to their birth places, many of which are villages or ranchitos (small ranches). The Cowboys originated in Sinaloa but due to the formation of other cartels in the other regions, they are now sometimes referred to as the "Cartel Cowboys." They have a reputation for being vicious and ruthless in their dealings.

Identifiers

The most significant identifier is the Stetson cowboy hat. These hats are very expensive, costing from several hundred to several thousand dollars.

Shirts are usually long sleeve, made of silk material and extremely loud colors. They may be stenciled on the back with a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe, or a Mexican flag.

Pants are usually Wrangler, tight fit, straight leg, off white or beige in color.

Belts are made with expensive hand engraved patterns. Belt buckles may be made of metal depicting an AK-47 and/or a marijuana leaf. The buckles may also bear the initials "WBP" - Wet Back Power.

Boots are made from cow hide, elephant, iguana, ostrich and cobra snake skin. The boots have pointed toes and are extremely expensive.

Jewelry is custom made and very heavy and expensive.

Tattoos - "WBP" - Wetback Power

Weapons - Their favorite is the AK-47 known as the "cuerno de chivo." (horn of the goat) This description is related to the magazine shape. they also like the "LAW" M66 Rocket Launcher, other assault rifles, and shotguns. Their handguns of choice are the Colt .38 Super, the Colt.45 or most 9 mm caliber weapons. They have been known to use U.S. gang members to commit assassinations and to smuggle narcotics across the U.S./Mexican border.

Vehicles - The most popular are the Chevrolet Silverado, Dodge Ram and the Ford 150 pickup trucks. The trucks may have secret compartments to conceal narcotics and money. A small lariat may hang from the interior rear view mirror and pictures of brahma bulls may be painted on each side of the truck.


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## longfxukxnhair

I guess the point of this article is that we cant stop the flow of illegal crossings so we might as well give up on trying to secure the border?

Political rhetoric ignores reality at United States border with Mexico


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## longfxukxnhair

martystrat54 said:


> but you have to ask yourself, "who were the guns meant for?" that was a considerable amount of firepower and i concluded the ammo was all the same so they probably had sks's and ak47's. These are the weapons of choice for gang bangers. The guns could have been funded by a mexican drug cartel with affiliation to a certain hispanic gang. Well guess what is now in our border towns? Yep, certain hispanic gangs. They are fighting other gangs for control of the drug traffic which is exactly what the big mexican drug lords want. They want one gang to handle it all. Now the nastiest of the bunch that was already in phoenix by 2000 was the sinaloa "cowboys." very ruthless. I remember they gunned down eight people in a bar because they got disrespected. The bar never reopened. Here is the scoop on these guys. They are infested in tucson, casa grande and phoenix. Also in flagstaff as they "protect" their drug trade up i-17 to i-40.
> 
> The sinaloa cowboys gang
> 
> the sinaloa cowboys are drug traffickers, mostly from the mexican states of sinaloa, baja california, chihuahua, coahuila, durango, michoacan, nuevo leon and sonora. The cowboys are very loyal to their birth places, many of which are villages or ranchitos (small ranches). The cowboys originated in sinaloa but due to the formation of other cartels in the other regions, they are now sometimes referred to as the "cartel cowboys." they have a reputation for being vicious and ruthless in their dealings.
> 
> Identifiers
> 
> the most significant identifier is the stetson cowboy hat. These hats are very expensive, costing from several hundred to several thousand dollars.
> 
> Shirts are usually long sleeve, made of silk material and extremely loud colors. They may be stenciled on the back with a picture of our lady of guadalupe, or a mexican flag.
> 
> Pants are usually wrangler, tight fit, straight leg, off white or beige in color.
> 
> Belts are made with expensive hand engraved patterns. Belt buckles may be made of metal depicting an ak-47 and/or a marijuana leaf. The buckles may also bear the initials "wbp" - wet back power.
> 
> Boots are made from cow hide, elephant, iguana, ostrich and cobra snake skin. The boots have pointed toes and are extremely expensive.
> 
> Jewelry is custom made and very heavy and expensive.
> 
> Tattoos - "wbp" - wetback power
> 
> weapons - their favorite is the ak-47 known as the "cuerno de chivo." (horn of the goat) this description is related to the magazine shape. They also like the "law" m66 rocket launcher, other assault rifles, and shotguns. Their handguns of choice are the colt .38 super, the colt.45 or most 9 mm caliber weapons. They have been known to use u.s. Gang members to commit assassinations and to smuggle narcotics across the u.s./mexican border.
> 
> Vehicles - the most popular are the chevrolet silverado, dodge ram and the ford 150 pickup trucks. The trucks may have secret compartments to conceal narcotics and money. A small lariat may hang from the interior rear view mirror and pictures of brahma bulls may be painted on each side of the truck.



+10000


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## motorhead_6

It really bugs me that Clinton so successfully managed to somehow make most Americans believe that he was impeached for getting a blowjob. Of course nobody thinks a president should be impeached for that. I think Clinton is probably the one who blew the lid off of the Lewinsky shit because he wanted everybody to talk about his blowjob so much they would forget all about the very serious reasons he was impeached.

He was impeached on 4 charges :

Article 1 Perjury before a grand jury which I can assure you that any one of us convicted of the exact same offense would be sent to prison. This is the only one of the 4 that was even related the slightest bit to his ongoing affair with Lewinsky. It was a love affair not just a blowjob but that was perfectly legal and had nothing to do with his crimes until he lied about it. You may say so what but you or I would have been sent to prison for it. Everybody knows you tell the truth to a grand jury no matter what or you are fucked.

These next three articles had absolutely nothing to do with his having sex with lewinski or lying about it.

Article 2: Perjury in a civil case.
(1) On December 23, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton, in sworn answers to written questions asked as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him, willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning conduct and proposed conduct with subordinate employees.

(2) On January 17, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton swore under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in a deposition given as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him. Contrary to that oath, William Jefferson Clinton willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning the nature and details of his relationship with a subordinate Government employee, his knowledge of that employee's involvement and participation in the civil rights action brought against him, and his corrupt efforts to influence the testimony of that employee.

Article 3: Obstruction of Justice.
(1) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to execute a sworn affidavit in that proceeding that he knew to be perjurious, false and misleading.

(2) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to give perjurious, false and misleading testimony if and when called to testify personally in that proceeding.

(3) On or about December 28, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly engaged in, encouraged, or supported a scheme to conceal evidence that had been subpoenaed in a Federal civil rights action brought against him.

(4) Beginning on or about December 7, 1997, and continuing through and including January 14, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton intensified and succeeded in an effort to secure job assistance to a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him in order to corruptly prevent the truthful testimony of that witness in that proceeding at a time when the truthful testimony of that witness would have been harmful to him.

(5) On January 17, 1998, at his deposition in a Federal civil rights action brought against him, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly allowed his attorney to make false and misleading statements to a Federal judge characterizing an affidavit, in order to prevent questioning deemed relevant by the judge. Such false and misleading statements were subsequently acknowledged by his attorney in a communication to that judge.

(6) On or about January 18 and January 20-21, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton related a false and misleading account of events relevant to a Federal civil rights action brought against him to a potential witness in that proceeding, in order to corruptly influence the testimony of that witness.

(7) On or about January 21, 23 and 26, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton made false and misleading statements to potential witnesses in a Federal grand jury proceeding in order to corruptly influence the testimony of those witnesses. The false and misleading statements made by William Jefferson Clinton were repeated by the witnesses to the grand j

Article 4: Abuse of Power by making perjurious statements to Congress in his answers to the 81 questions posed by the Judiciary Committee.

Using the powers and influence of the office of President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has engaged in conduct that resulted in misuse and abuse of his high office, impaired the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, and contravened the authority of the legislative branch and the truth-seeking purpose of a coordinate investigative proceeding in that, as President, William Jefferson Clinton, refused and failed to respond to certain written requests for admission and willfully made perjurious, false and misleading sworn statements in response to certain written requests for admission propounded to him as part of the impeachment inquiry authorized by the House of Representatives of the Congress of the United States.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Bottom line it was a lying about a blow job


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Todays article.

Proposed illegal-immigration law stirs up Nebraska city


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

good move


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Enforcing laws against illegal immigration is but one part of the solution. Laws aimed at employers who hire them must be put in place too.

04/10/02 - Illegals’ Employers Meet RICO Doomsday Machine


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

that one is also good news


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> that one is also good news



It is but do you see the problem? Repubs dont want to hurt big biz by creating laws on a fed level. Dems dont want to go after big biz. The just want to grant amnesty. Neither party wants to tackle the real issue(s) here and its costing American citizens dearly.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

no amnesty should be granted at this point.....Arizona is a great example why
the law is not even enacted yet and they are leaving (as well as legal residents) but it is easier to just move and avoid it....how many have applied for a status?
a lot of them have been here a long time and never made the effort to become legal 
and is the reason i am against amnesty.....also reason why their should be no right to vote
our laws will change faster than a Porsche changing lanes on the autobahn
again....the day i can vote in another country is the day i still don't consider it here
i look at the same way is a person moving into my house and telling me how to raise my kids.....ain't gonna happen.......again this is nothing personal


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> no amnesty should be granted at this point.....Arizona is a great example why
> the law is not even enacted yet and they are leaving (as well as legal residents) but it is easier to just move and avoid it....how many have applied for a status?
> a lot of them have been here a long time and never made the effort to become legal
> and is the reason i am against amnesty.....also reason why their should be no right to vote
> our laws will change faster than a Porsche changing lanes on the autobahn
> again....the day i can vote in another country is the day i still don't consider it here
> i look at the same way is a person moving into my house and telling me how to raise my kids.....ain't gonna happen.......again this is nothing personal



I am against amnesty. But I can tell you if illegals are applying for citizenship, its not being talked about in the papers. And you would think that if they were, it would be talked about. Just goes to show that they dont care about the laws of the land or its people.


----------



## cptnkrunch

I guess they really are starting to crack down and get serious about these immigration problems we have.



> Detention Facilities to Offer Bingo, Dance Classes to Illegal Aliens
> Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and a private prison contractor have agreed to make a number of changes at nine privately owned facilities used to detain deportable aliens. According to ICE officials, the changes – which include offering art classes, bingo and continental breakfast to “low-risk” detainees – are part of the Obama administration’s previously announced efforts “to make the immigrant detention system less penal and more humane.” (Houston Chronicle, June 8, 2010; Examiner.com, June 10, 2010; Kansas City Star, June 10, 2010; See also FAIR’s Legislative Update, October 13, 2009).
> 
> The forthcoming changes at the nine facilities were revealed in a May 27 ICE e-mail. They include:
> 
> “Relaxing security” by allowing “[l]ow-risk detainees” to have “freedom of movement” in the facilities and by “reducing” pat-down searches;
> Eliminating “lock downs” and “lights out”;
> Allowing detainees “to have visitors stay as long as they like within a 12-hour window”;
> Increasing “attorney visitation space”;
> Adding “un-monitored phone lines” and giving detainees “email and free, Internet-based calling”;
> Providing unit managers who “will be available to take complaints directly from detainees”;
> Allowing detainees “to wear their own clothing or other non-penal attire”;
> Providing detainees “at least four hours of recreation daily…in a natural setting, allowing for robust aerobic exercise” ;
> Offering “movie nights, bingo, arts and crafts, dance and cooking classes, tutoring, and computer training”;
> “oftening the look” of the facilities “with hanging plants” and “fresh paint and new bedding”; and
> Providing detainees with “more variety in their dining hall menus”, including “self-serve beverage and fresh vegetable bars.” (Houston Chronicle, June 8, 2010).
> According to ICE official Beth Gibson, some of the changes to the detention system for illegal aliens will be in place within 30 days, while others may take up to six months to implement. Gibson sounded a positive note on the decision to relax existing detention standards: “When people come to our custody, we’re detaining them to effect their removal. It’s about deportation. It’s not about punishing people for a crime they committed.” (Id.).
> 
> ICE union leaders, however, have criticized the changes. Tre Rebstock, president of an ICE union in the Houston area, said that the changes would create “an all-inclusive resort” for detainees. Rebstock added that the changes would jeopardize the safety of ICE agents, facility guards, and the detainees themselves. Pointing specifically to the plans to relax restrictions on the movement of detainees, reduce pat-down searches, and eliminate lockdowns, Rebstock stated: “Our biggest concern is that someone is going to get hurt.” ICE official Gibson attempted to downplay concerns about relaxing security measures, noting that “[a]s a general matter, it will be the non-criminals who don’t present a danger to anyone else who are benefitting from the lowest level of custody.” However, Rebstock acknowledged that some detainees may be classified as low-risk because they have no serious criminal history, but could still be gang members who simply “haven’t been caught doing anything wrong yet.” (Id.).
> 
> Rebstock also lamented the fact that American taxpayers would be footing the bill for the changes: “My grandparents would have loved to have bingo night and a dance class at the retirement home they were in when they passed away, but that was something we would have had to pay for. And yet these guys are getting it on the taxpayers’ dime.” ICE official Gibson countered that a private contractor would fund the changes at no additional cost to the feds. (Id.).
> 
> ICE’s actions caught the attention of lawmakers on Capitol Hill, including Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa), who sent a letter to Assistant Secretary for ICE John Morton. Expressing “serious concerns” about the changes, Grassley stated: “Giving illegal aliens access to computer training and tutoring, as well as dance lessons, cooking classes and movie nights, will only encourage illegal aliens to ignore the law and take more risks to defraud our immigration system.” Grassley went on: “[T]axpayers would be very disappointed if the reports are true since they are financing detention and removal efforts. Expanding taxpayer dollars to give illegal aliens access to bingo, dance lessons, and the internet is a slap in the face to hardworking Americans who foot the bill. It’s even more frustrating given that so many Americans are unemployed and looking for work while illegal aliens are getting free tutoring and computer classes to advance their own lives.”


----------



## longfxukxnhair

another article that just came out in my paper

Chuck D calls Jan Brewer 'a Hitler'

The fact that Chuck D thinks the people of AZ voted this measure in tells you he has no real idea what the fuck he is talking about! What a loser.

Good job on showing your ignorance Chuck Roast


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I guess they really are starting to crack down and get serious about these immigration problems we have.



I saw this article a few days ago in another paper. Those in charge/power seem to think this is a victimless crime.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Well shit sign me up! I dont even think the Hilton could beat this deal. Free internet, phone, TV,continental breakfast, free movies, bingo, tutoring, dance night, computer and cooking classes w/free food, increased menu selection for my dinning pleasure, w/fresh veggie bar and a house mngr to file my greivence's with 24/7. It doesn't pay to be legal. These conditions are much better than what I have to offer at my house.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> It doesn't pay to be legal.



At this point in our countrys history the above statement is sadly true.


----------



## MM54

There was an article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette a couple days ago with someone bitching about how some illegal family might be split up because some alien got arrested for driving drunk.

I said boo-fucking-hoo. People need to realize that if they're here illegally, they risk getting caught and split up -.-


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MM54 said:


> There was an article in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette a couple days ago with someone bitching about how some illegal family might be split up because some alien got arrested for driving drunk.
> 
> I said boo-fucking-hoo. People need to realize that if they're here illegally, they risk getting caught and split up -.-



+1000000
You are 100% correct. But they want to make that our problem.


----------



## Gryphon

When discussing detention centers, not many citizens are aware that any alien, including those holding GCs, can be held without bail if suspected of committing a crime. Yes, you get to spend months in detention while your case is processed through the courts. So not all of the people in a detention center are illegals being processed or deserve to be treated like criminals.


----------



## tonefreak

Gryphon said:


> When discussing detention centers, not many citizens are aware that any alien, including those holding GCs, can be held without bail if suspected of committing a crime. Yes, you get to spend months in detention while your case is processed through the courts. So not all of the people in a detention center are illegals being processed or deserve to be treated like criminals.




guilty until proven elseways.


----------



## motorhead_6

> Bottom line it was a lying about a blow job





That was a joke right? If it wasn't then try reading this which is the exact same thing only with Article 1 removed (the only article out of the 4 that had anything to do with Lewinski or a blow job or anything sexual including whether or not Clinton lied about anything having anything to do with a blow job or Lewinski). If you still don't get it then I give up.


Article 2: Perjury in a civil case.
(1) On December 23, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton, in sworn answers to written questions asked as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him, willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning conduct and proposed conduct with subordinate employees.

(2) On January 17, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton swore under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in a deposition given as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him. Contrary to that oath, William Jefferson Clinton willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning the nature and details of his relationship with a subordinate Government employee, his knowledge of that employee's involvement and participation in the civil rights action brought against him, and his corrupt efforts to influence the testimony of that employee.

Article 3: Obstruction of Justice.
(1) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to execute a sworn affidavit in that proceeding that he knew to be perjurious, false and misleading.

(2) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to give perjurious, false and misleading testimony if and when called to testify personally in that proceeding.

(3) On or about December 28, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly engaged in, encouraged, or supported a scheme to conceal evidence that had been subpoenaed in a Federal civil rights action brought against him.

(4) Beginning on or about December 7, 1997, and continuing through and including January 14, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton intensified and succeeded in an effort to secure job assistance to a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him in order to corruptly prevent the truthful testimony of that witness in that proceeding at a time when the truthful testimony of that witness would have been harmful to him.

(5) On January 17, 1998, at his deposition in a Federal civil rights action brought against him, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly allowed his attorney to make false and misleading statements to a Federal judge characterizing an affidavit, in order to prevent questioning deemed relevant by the judge. Such false and misleading statements were subsequently acknowledged by his attorney in a communication to that judge.

(6) On or about January 18 and January 20-21, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton related a false and misleading account of events relevant to a Federal civil rights action brought against him to a potential witness in that proceeding, in order to corruptly influence the testimony of that witness.

(7) On or about January 21, 23 and 26, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton made false and misleading statements to potential witnesses in a Federal grand jury proceeding in order to corruptly influence the testimony of those witnesses. The false and misleading statements made by William Jefferson Clinton were repeated by the witnesses to the grand j

Article 4: Abuse of Power by making perjurious statements to Congress in his answers to the 81 questions posed by the Judiciary Committee.

Using the powers and influence of the office of President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has engaged in conduct that resulted in misuse and abuse of his high office, impaired the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, and contravened the authority of the legislative branch and the truth-seeking purpose of a coordinate investigative proceeding in that, as President, William Jefferson Clinton, refused and failed to respond to certain written requests for admission and willfully made perjurious, false and misleading sworn statements in response to certain written requests for admission propounded to him as part of the impeachment inquiry authorized by the House of Representatives of the Congress of


----------



## cptnkrunch

I wonder what's going to happen with this one? Looks Like they have had enough of it. Neb. town votes to restrict illegal immigration - U.S. news- msnbc.com


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I wonder what's going to happen with this one? Looks Like they have had enough of it. Neb. town votes to restrict illegal immigration - U.S. news- msnbc.com



that story was posted on another page. But it deserves a bump. As you can see things are starting to happen on a local level. Any doubts that if the fed challenge to the AZ law fails other states will follow AZ's lead?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

motorhead_6 said:


> That was a joke right? If it wasn't then try reading this which is the exact same thing only with Article 1 removed (the only article out of the 4 that had anything to do with Lewinski or a blow job or anything sexual including whether or not Clinton lied about anything having anything to do with a blow job or Lewinski). If you still don't get it then I give up.
> 
> 
> Article 2: Perjury in a civil case.
> (1) On December 23, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton, in sworn answers to written questions asked as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him, willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning conduct and proposed conduct with subordinate employees.
> 
> (2) On January 17, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton swore under oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in a deposition given as part of a Federal civil rights action brought against him. Contrary to that oath, William Jefferson Clinton willfully provided perjurious, false and misleading testimony in response to questions deemed relevant by a Federal judge concerning the nature and details of his relationship with a subordinate Government employee, his knowledge of that employee's involvement and participation in the civil rights action brought against him, and his corrupt efforts to influence the testimony of that employee.
> 
> Article 3: Obstruction of Justice.
> (1) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to execute a sworn affidavit in that proceeding that he knew to be perjurious, false and misleading.
> 
> (2) On or about December 17, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly encouraged a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him to give perjurious, false and misleading testimony if and when called to testify personally in that proceeding.
> 
> (3) On or about December 28, 1997, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly engaged in, encouraged, or supported a scheme to conceal evidence that had been subpoenaed in a Federal civil rights action brought against him.
> 
> (4) Beginning on or about December 7, 1997, and continuing through and including January 14, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton intensified and succeeded in an effort to secure job assistance to a witness in a Federal civil rights action brought against him in order to corruptly prevent the truthful testimony of that witness in that proceeding at a time when the truthful testimony of that witness would have been harmful to him.
> 
> (5) On January 17, 1998, at his deposition in a Federal civil rights action brought against him, William Jefferson Clinton corruptly allowed his attorney to make false and misleading statements to a Federal judge characterizing an affidavit, in order to prevent questioning deemed relevant by the judge. Such false and misleading statements were subsequently acknowledged by his attorney in a communication to that judge.
> 
> (6) On or about January 18 and January 20-21, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton related a false and misleading account of events relevant to a Federal civil rights action brought against him to a potential witness in that proceeding, in order to corruptly influence the testimony of that witness.
> 
> (7) On or about January 21, 23 and 26, 1998, William Jefferson Clinton made false and misleading statements to potential witnesses in a Federal grand jury proceeding in order to corruptly influence the testimony of those witnesses. The false and misleading statements made by William Jefferson Clinton were repeated by the witnesses to the grand j
> 
> Article 4: Abuse of Power by making perjurious statements to Congress in his answers to the 81 questions posed by the Judiciary Committee.
> 
> Using the powers and influence of the office of President of the United States, William Jefferson Clinton, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has engaged in conduct that resulted in misuse and abuse of his high office, impaired the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, and contravened the authority of the legislative branch and the truth-seeking purpose of a coordinate investigative proceeding in that, as President, William Jefferson Clinton, refused and failed to respond to certain written requests for admission and willfully made perjurious, false and misleading sworn statements in response to certain written requests for admission propounded to him as part of the impeachment inquiry authorized by the House of Representatives of the Congress of






did he kill a few thousand troops?.....did he illegally wire tap your phone......did he knowingly allow torture?......he got a blow job....and lied about it........so what happened.....the Pubs wanted to exert their power to get their way by spending millions to impeach him for lying about a blowjob
i dont see you complaining about Big oill being allowed to write our energy policy......which is slowly killing off thousands of citizens


care to start another thread on this one?....any clue why i say fear the Sheep?


----------



## StootMonster

I lived in Mesa for 15 years and did construction when I was in my early 20's. We worked a lot in the west valley. The stucco crews were mostly made up of illegals that didn't speak any english. There was usually a white supervisor or a mexican supervisor that could speak english. Sheriff Joe decided to start pulling over large construction trucks loaded down with hispanics and if they were illegal, they got deported. Before you knew it, the entire houses were complete except for the stucco. You had a bunch of high dollar homes with chicken wire and Styrofoam and no stucco. 

And even though this method proved itself to be very effective, the other side cried 'racial profiling' and eventually they stopped enforcing it.

I think that racial profiling applies to instances where a cop pulls over a black man for driving a nice car at 3 am in an upscale neighborhood or some bullcrap like that, but asking someone to show proof of residency via legal drivers license, ss card or what have you, should be completely legal. "I think" that it's everyone's duty to show an officer that you are legally here if he/she asks. It's not offensive unless you have something to hide.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

StootMonster said:


> I lived in Mesa for 15 years and did construction when I was in my early 20's. We worked a lot in the west valley. The stucco crews were mostly made up of illegals that didn't speak any english. There was usually a white supervisor or a mexican supervisor that could speak english. Sheriff Joe decided to start pulling over large construction trucks loaded down with hispanics and if they were illegal, they got deported. Before you knew it, the entire houses were complete except for the stucco. You had a bunch of high dollar homes with chicken wire and Styrofoam and no stucco.
> 
> And even though this method proved itself to be very effective, the other side cried 'racial profiling' and eventually they stopped enforcing it.
> 
> I think that racial profiling applies to instances where a cop pulls over a black man for driving a nice car at 3 am in an upscale neighborhood or some bullcrap like that, but asking someone to show proof of residency via legal drivers license, ss card or what have you, should be completely legal. "I think" that it's everyone's duty to show an officer that you are legally here if he/she asks. It's not offensive unless you have something to hide.




The last sentence is the key to it all. 

Without bashing a side/party let me say the tactics employed against this bill are the very same tactics the left uses when they cant make a argument on valid point(s). The left cries racism when they cant make the argument. This bill proves that. But if one needs more proof of this just think back to the recent "health care reform". For those against that bill they were called racist. All because a black president wanted health care reform. I could care less what his color is. But because I spoke out against the bill I was called a racist. And not just once. Hundreds of times. You could see it on TV everyday. SB1070 is not about race anymore than the health care reform was.
Illegal is not a race. Its a label one willingly accepts when they break this countrys laws to be here. Its a label that knows no color. Its a action, not a race.


----------



## bloosman1

longfxukxnhair said:


> The last sentence is the key to it all.
> 
> Without bashing a side/party let me say the tactics employed against this bill are the very same tactics the left uses when they cant make a argument on valid point(s). The left cries racism when they cant make the argument. This bill proves that. But if one needs more proof of this just think back to the recent "health care reform". For those against that bill they were called racist. All because a black president wanted health care reform. I could care less what his color is. But because I spoke out against the bill I was called a racist. And not just once. Hundreds of times. You could see it on TV everyday. SB1070 is not about race anymore than the health care reform was.
> Illegal is not a race. Its a label one willingly accepts when they break this countrys laws to be here. Its a label that knows no color. Its a action, not a race.



I agree wholeheartedly.
---J---


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Arizona refugees become U.S. citizens


----------



## longfxukxnhair

It looks like Mexico gets a say in our countrys laws.

Mexico asks court to reject Ariz. immigration law

Instead of filing law suits why dont they do something about their citizens leaving. If the country wasnt such a filthy fucking arm pit.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> It looks like Mexico gets a say in our countrys laws.
> 
> Mexico asks court to reject Ariz. immigration law
> 
> Instead of filing law suits why dont they do something about their citizens leaving. If the country wasnt such a filthy fucking arm pit.



Yes, why doesn't Caldren worry about his own F#%$*&k'n country for once. NO HUEVOS! But hey, we did get a 108 Mickey Mouse pinata's out of the deal Border officers seize 108 illegal Disney piñatas


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Yes, why doesn't Caldren worry about his own F#%$*&k'n country for once. NO HUEVOS! But hey, we did get a 108 Mickey Mouse pinata's out of the deal Border officers seize 108 illegal Disney piñatas



LMAO! I was about to post that just for you bro.

We got em!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

New article. I say let them put it on the ballot. Once the people vote on SB10 (and it will win) no one can ever touch the law without a public vote.

New effort to put Ariz. immigration law on ballot


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

keep in mind...we as Citizens can not overrule the supreme court and what they decide
we can vote on anything and have it taken away


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> keep in mind...we as Citizens can not overrule the supreme court and what they decide
> we can vote on anything and have it taken away



I know that. I believe the law will be found to be constitutional. I am talking about local politicians.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Todays article.

Miranda rights may complicate SB 1070 enforcement


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

what is with your links that i only get so far before i heard enough

"Furthermore, under the law, they said, a person who can't produce a driver's license or other ID during a stop is not eligible to be cited and released by a police officer. That means the person must be taken into custody"

This practice has been in use for ages....and i have brought it up before....it is why 1070 is almost null and void......if they did this more it would help take care of who is in the country.....like everyone keeps mentioning the problem is not just stopping them from getting in


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> what is with your links that i only get so far before i heard enough



Thats my local paper for ya. It doesnt take much before I am done either.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> what is with your links that i only get so far before i heard enough
> 
> "Furthermore, under the law, they said, a person who can't produce a driver's license or other ID during a stop is not eligible to be cited and released by a police officer. That means the person must be taken into custody"
> 
> This practice has been in use for ages....and i have brought it up before....it is why 1070 is almost null and void......if they did this more it would help take care of who is in the country.....like everyone keeps mentioning the problem is not just stopping them from getting in



1070 is not null and void. My paper is very left leaning. Thats cool but I dont believe any news source should have a political tendency. To me I read reasons why 1070 shouldnt be enforced. Will it raise problems? It might and we will need to work through them. 1070 isnt the perfect cure. It wont stop illegals from coming across the border. But it will help to deal with them if they are in AZ. To stop them from coming in you must go after business. 
Anyone here illegally should be detained on the spot. I dont want excuses. I want to problem fixed! Our federal govt who has a legal right to fix this isnt. Obam has said he wont secure the border until reform is done. Securing all borders is his job! He took a oath and isnt living up to it. Now he wants to politicize securing the border? Get that stupid fuck out of office!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

No...my point was 1070 should be null and void...it should have never taken place and that quote is the reason why.... if a cop cannot confirm who i am right there and then i will wind up in custody till they do find out who i am....has been like that since i can remember....it is just not used enough
it exposes everyone....not just illegals ......so they can take the profiling that they claim will happen and shove it up their ass


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

do i look like i would fall under profiling?......then ask me if i care....kind old pic


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> No...my point was 1070 should be null and void...it should have never taken place and that quote is the reason why.... if a cop cannot confirm who i am right there and then i will wind up in custody till they do find out who i am....has been like that since i can remember....it is just not used enough
> it exposes everyone....not just illegals ......so they can take the profiling that they claim will happen and shove it up their ass



I get it. I missed your point.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> do i look like i would fall under profiling?......then ask me if i care....kind old pic



awww Buggs and baby Buggs.

You look native american to me in that pic.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

or kinda Latin/Spanish to an unknowing eye.....i would get profiled i'm sure....but i don't care....i wouldn't care if i had to have a citizenship card as well as my license....but not may people are willing to give up their rights on this...and i can understand it.....but for anything to work it must be done without an attempt to be politically correct....or smeared by bullshit as i say


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> or kinda Latin/Spanish to an unknowing eye.....i would get profiled i'm sure....but i don't care....i wouldn't care if i had to have a citizenship card as well as my license....but not may people are willing to give up their rights on this...and i can understand it.....but for anything to work it must be done without an attempt to be politically correct....or smeared by bullshit as i say



No need for a national ID card if the politicians go after the businesses that hire them. Self deportation would rise. But neither party wants to go after business.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Resolution would make Calif. first state to boycott Ariz.


----------



## MM54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Resolution would make Calif. first state to boycott Ariz.





I didn't even read the article but I'm already shaking my head at the title.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Arizona should in turn boycott California.....considering that state is bankrupt and part of that reason being hand outs to illegals they should know better.....now i personally will boycott anything made in their state .....can you say Touche?....sure i knew you could


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MM54 said:


> I didn't even read the article but I'm already shaking my head at the title.



It makes no sense from a financial point of view for Cal. They need every dime they can get. But its their failed liberal policies that put them in this position. If you read the article, its the dems who support this.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Arizona should in turn boycott California.....considering that state is bankrupt and part of that reason being hand outs to illegals they should know better.....now i personally will boycott anything made in their state .....can you say Touche?....sure i knew you could



Im with ya bro.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> It makes no sense from a financial point of view for Cal. They need every dime they can get. But its their failed liberal policies that put them in this position. If you read the article, its the dems who support this.



i can believe its the Dems in California....they give everything away out there it seems


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i can believe its the Dems in California....they give everything away out there it seems



Most are the left wing dems that give dems a bad name. But thats the policies that Cal has had regardless of which party is gov. To many give aways. Fucking bleeding heart state.


----------



## triftstrassa

I leave town for a while, and this thread is still going?
RIGHT ON!
Back in the civil war here in AZ, nice and hot, with an extra serving of "get the hell out of my state" for those that need it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

triftstrassa said:


> I leave town for a while, and this thread is still going?
> RIGHT ON!
> Back in the civil war here in AZ, nice and hot, with an extra serving of "get the hell out of my state" for those that need it.



Welcome back brother.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

more sympathy.......nowhere in this article does it offer a solution.....just sympathy
Mexico sees silver lining in Arizona immigration law - Yahoo! News


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> more sympathy.......nowhere in this article does it offer a solution.....just sympathy
> Mexico sees silver lining in Arizona immigration law - Yahoo! News



You are correct. More propaganda too. More people support enforcing current laws than not. They shut down amnesty a few years back under Bush. The few that are opposed to enforcing current laws speak loudly. Nothing more. If I didnt have plans on (maybe) running for office in a few years I would really speak my mind. I say that not as a racist (as I am not) but as a American citizen!


----------



## cptnkrunch

> more sympathy.......nowhere in this article does it offer a solution.....just sympathy
> Mexico sees silver lining in Arizona immigration law - Yahoo! News


 What are the odds that the American's that support illegal immigration are currently employed or employers? 

This article made me cringe, absolute BS. They really know how to rub our face in it.
Students Sue Over Removal of American Flag T-Shirts


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> What are the odds that the American's that support illegal immigration are currently employed or employers?
> 
> This article made me cringe, absolute BS. They really know how to rub our face in it.
> Students Sue Over Removal of American Flag T-Shirts



And that happened in CA. That state needs to drop into the ocean. Once again, I cant really speak my mind if I intend on doing something political in the future.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> And that happened in CA. That state needs to drop into the ocean



I know you just want beach front property without the drive.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I know you just want beach front property without the drive.



I wish it were me just being that selfish. I hate the loons and their absurd politics that come from that state.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

cptnkrunch said:


> What are the odds that the American's that support illegal immigration are currently employed or employers?
> 
> This article made me cringe, absolute BS. They really know how to rub our face in it.
> Students Sue Over Removal of American Flag T-Shirts



i hope they win trillions in their suit.....i dont give a fuck who thinks what....to tell a kid he can not wear a flag any day no matter the reason should be shot

i'm all for people flying their own countries flag......as long as it is masted below the Stars and Stripes if on US soil


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> i hope they win trillions in their suit.....i dont give a fuck who thinks what....to tell a kid he can not wear a flag any day no matter the reason should be shot
> 
> i'm all for people flying their own countries flag......as long as it is masted below the Stars and Stripes if on US soil



+10000000000

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.


----------



## Gryphon

Only in America would an issue like that be a lawsuit. Will you guys never stop feeding those lawyers? <grin>


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Only in America would an issue like that be a lawsuit. Will you guys never stop feeding those lawyers?


Well...... in the old days we would just kick their ass but people seem to frown on that now.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> Only in America would an issue like that be a lawsuit. Will you guys never stop feeding those lawyers? <grin>



Lawyers run the country.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Arrogant shit like this is very insulting to the American people especially when so many like this guy fought and died for the very realestate the fuk that raised it is standing on. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nONjlZ8YMkA]YouTube - Vet cuts down Illegal Mexican flag flying above U.S. Flag[/ame]


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

why do they not issue this to the other jobs
Painters.....Sheetrockers.....Roofers.....Framers...........................
Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs - Yahoo! News


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

cptnkrunch said:


> Arrogant shit like this is very insulting to the American people especially when so many like this guy fought and died for the very realestate the fuk that raised it is standing on. YouTube - Vet cuts down Illegal Mexican flag flying above U.S. Flag



finally got to watch it with sound......sadly i can see that Vet being charged with something......yet not the store owner for breaking the law in the first place......love how he would not comment.....wonder why


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Arrogant shit like this is very insulting to the American people especially when so many like this guy fought and died for the very realestate the fuk that raised it is standing on. YouTube - Vet cuts down Illegal Mexican flag flying above U.S. Flag



Thank you Jim for your continued service to this country!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> Thank you Jim for your continued service to this country!



+1.....Jim is the Man


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> +1.....Jim is the Man



You noticed those punks didnt do a damn thing about him cutting down their flag.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

this was just posted on Yahoo in response to the link i posted earlier.....not sure how much of it is true but i plan to research it.....and if it is true i bet Mexico changes their laws to make illegal immigration less of a news story

1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
* * * * * * * *
2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.
* * * * * * * *
3.. All government business will be conducted in our language.
* * * * * * * *
4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are
here.
* * * * * * * *
5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office.
* * * * * * * *
6 Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food
stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will
be deported.
* * * * * * * *
7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least
equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
* * * * * * * *
8. If foreigners come here and buy land... Options will be restricted.
Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens
naturally born into this country.
* * * * * * * *
9.. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a
foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his
policies. These will lead to deportation.
* * * * * * * *
10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted
&, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All
assets will be taken from you.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
TOO STRICT?

The above laws are current immigration laws of MEXICO !!!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> this was just posted on Yahoo in response to the link i posted earlier.....not sure how much of it is true but i plan to research it.....and if it is true i bet Mexico changes their laws to make illegal immigration less of a news story
> 
> 1. There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
> * * * * * * * *
> 2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.
> * * * * * * * *
> 3.. All government business will be conducted in our language.
> * * * * * * * *
> 4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are
> here.
> * * * * * * * *
> 5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office.
> * * * * * * * *
> 6 Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food
> stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will
> be deported.
> * * * * * * * *
> 7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least
> equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
> * * * * * * * *
> 8. If foreigners come here and buy land... Options will be restricted.
> Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens
> naturally born into this country.
> * * * * * * * *
> 9.. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a
> foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his
> policies. These will lead to deportation.
> * * * * * * * *
> 10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted
> &, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All
> assets will be taken from you.
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> TOO STRICT?
> 
> The above laws are current immigration laws of MEXICO !!!



Did they not mention that if you are illegal and caught you will spend 2 yrs in jail for the first offense and 10 yrs for the second?


----------



## cptnkrunch

Buggs.Crosby said:


> why do they not issue this to the other jobs
> Painters.....Sheetrockers.....Roofers.....Framers...........................
> Immigrant farm workers' challenge: Take our jobs - Yahoo! News


Manipulation and political propaganda BS I think. If they can makes us believe that all illegals are only here to pick berries we will think it's ok for them to be here. The reality of this we all know not to be true. I can't think of a farm within a 100mi radius where I live, we have a few ranches in the area but not large ones by any stretch. We have lot's of illegals and their not picking fruit.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> manipulation and political propaganda bs i think. If they can makes us believe that all illegals are only here to pick berries we will think it's ok for them to be here. The reality of this we all know not to be true. I can't think of a farm within a 100mi radius where i live, we have a few ranches in the area but not large ones by any stretch. We have lot's of illegals and their not picking fruit.



+10000000000


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Phil Gordito is at it again. I am so glad Phx has term limits for mayors. He will be termed out soon. See ya, you illegal lover!

Gordon teams with other mayors to lobby for immigration reform


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

at least nowhere does he mention citizenship.....the problem still remains in the fact it is a form of amnesty....to even consider what they are proposing would require thousands and thousands of troops on the border....just to keep the ones who are not here from gaining anymore access...as soon as they find out there is a chance to become legal it will turn into a free for all


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> .as soon as they find out there is a chance to become legal it will turn into a free for all



Yes it will.


----------



## Gryphon

I have just been listening to LAUSD supervisor Cordines on NPR explaining the cuts he will have to implement next year due to budget shortfalls. Apparently there are 618,000 kids in LAUSD. I wonder how many would be left if every one was required to present proof of citizenship or legal residence before starting class in the Fall. 

Meanwhile the LAUSD board is passing motions censuring Arizona. 

Who elects these people?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Gryphon said:


> I have just been listening to LAUSD supervisor Cordines on NPR explaining the cuts he will have to implement next year due to budget shortfalls. Apparently there are 618,000 kids in LAUSD. I wonder how many would be left if every one was required to present proof of citizenship or legal residence before starting class in the Fall.
> 
> Meanwhile the LAUSD board is passing motions censuring Arizona.
> 
> Who elects these people?



Apparently its guys like the one in your avatar......LOL


----------



## cptnkrunch

> I have just been listening to LAUSD supervisor Cordines on NPR explaining the cuts he will have to implement next year due to budget shortfalls. Apparently there are 618,000 kids in LAUSD. I wonder how many would be left if every one was required to present proof of citizenship or legal residence before starting class in the Fall


 I have a close friend that teaches 8th grade math in LA, he said he spends about $500 each yr of his own money to get supplies needed to teach his class because the district dosn't have the $$ in the budget. I told him he's nuts but he just want's to give back whats been given to him, he says. He's the only gringo in his class.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me know when the rioting and looting starts. Oh it's gonna happen.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> I have just been listening to LAUSD supervisor Cordines on NPR explaining the cuts he will have to implement next year due to budget shortfalls. Apparently there are 618,000 kids in LAUSD. I wonder how many would be left if every one was required to present proof of citizenship or legal residence before starting class in the Fall.
> 
> Meanwhile the LAUSD board is passing motions censuring Arizona.
> 
> Who elects these people?



Its California. That state forgot how to take care if its *citizens* decades ago.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me know when the rioting and looting starts. Oh it's gonna happen.



There is much coming are way.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Brewer: Most illegal immigrants smuggling drugs


----------



## longfxukxnhair

http://www.azcentral.com/community/westvalley/articles/2010/06/25/20100625joe-arpaio-raid-sanitation-business25-ON.html


----------



## longfxukxnhair

This makes the 3rd story today about 1070

Feds expected to challenge Ariz. immigration law next week

I think I posted last week about how the Fed is going to challenge the law. And like I said last week, stop with the lip service and just do it.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Todays article is about a illegal couple moving from AZ to Pennsylvania. All because of sb1070.

Undocumented couple leave SB 1070 behind


----------



## clutch71

At the end of the day; Democrat or Republican, the problem with goverment is politicians. 

They should make less than school teachers and the american people should vote on potential pay raises. Think about it. If you could vote for a raise for yourself would you vote against it.

If you want an interesting read on Immigration read Michelle Malakin's book

_Invasion-America-Welcomes-Terrorists-Criminals_

I think she leans right, but has no qualms pointing out GOP errors in immigration.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

clutch71 said:


> At the end of the day; Democrat or Republican, the problem with goverment is politicians.
> 
> They should make less than school teachers and the american people should vote on potential pay raises. Think about it. If you could vote for a raise for yourself would you vote against it.
> 
> If you want an interesting read on Immigration read Michelle Malakin's book
> 
> _Invasion-America-Welcomes-Terrorists-Criminals_
> 
> I think she leans right, but has no qualms pointing out GOP errors in immigration.



Malkins does lean right. She has a few interesting books.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> Todays article is about a illegal couple moving from AZ to Pennsylvania. All because of sb1070.
> 
> Undocumented couple leave SB 1070 behind



yet more sympathy propaganda.....and it looks like they are heading my way


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> yet more sympathy propaganda.....and it looks like they are heading my way



Yes to both. Notice the article doesnt allow comments. But in other articles that do allow comments people are commenting about the illegals moving article.


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Phil Gordito is at it again. I am so glad Phx has term limits for mayors. He will be termed out soon. See ya, you illegal lover!
> 
> Gordon teams with other mayors to lobby for immigration reform



God, I been gone for 7 years and all the same city council members playing musical chairs with the mayor's office. That's one of the problems right there is these long term politicians.

Why would the mayor be in favor of anything related to spending tax payer's money on illegal immigrants? What a bone head.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> God, I been gone for 7 years and all the same city council members playing musical chairs with the mayor's office. That's one of the problems right there is these long term politicians.
> 
> Why would the mayor be in favor of anything related to spending tax payer's money on illegal immigrants? What a bone head.



Gordito is an idiot.


----------



## cptnkrunch

MartyStrat54;161651
Why would the mayor be in favor of anything related to spending tax payer's money on illegal immigrants? What a bone head.[/QUOTE said:


> The mayor and all the rest of the state and national politicians that feel we need to continue bankrupting our country and giving American jobs to illegals who are breaking our laws and ARE criminals by being here in the first place. WTF is going on, is there only a few that are seeing this shit? I thought the crack epidemic was somewhat over. This sympathy with our tax dollars makes absolutely no sense to me. It's so far beyond insulting to the American taxpayers, I'm at a loss for words to describe how unfair this BS is to citizens that have struggled, paid their dues and fought to make this country what it is, only to watch our government give it away and give us the finger. I do know I am PISSED and DISGUSTED and tired of having my face rubbed in it by illegal sympathizers that think jose and his family of eight should have a free ride courtesy of the American taxpayer. It's really beyond comprehension if you think about it. No other country in the world (I can think of) would sit back and allow this happen and if there is please tell me cause thats were I'm heading when we get done flushing this one down the shitter. Sorry to reiterate and rant but this shit makes my blood boil more and more everyday, especially when I'm loosing my house to lack of work but get to watch red grand prix's loaded with illegals going to work everyday. Just love my politicians, almost all of them Dem's and Pubs don't seem to give a shit unless their directly effected or benefit in some way


----------



## cptnkrunch

Buggs.Crosby said:


> yet more sympathy propaganda.....and it looks like they are heading my way



My recent luck, they will probably breakdown here in Co before they get your house Buggs.



> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Todays article is about a illegal couple moving from AZ to Pennsylvania. All because of sb1070.
> 
> Undocumented couple leave SB 1070 behind


Get out the Kleenex.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you see Captain. The shit has not yet hit the fan and when it does, it's going to make Katrina look like a beach party. There is no doubt in my mind that there will be dead people. In a way, it will be sort of a second Mexican-American war. Something has got to give. 

There are thousand of white supremacists just waiting for an excuse to unload. Then it will be mayhem as the National Guard will be in the middle of it all. Then, maybe then, the government will open its eyes and realize how bad they have handled all of this.

Protesters "for" the illegals are out numbered by those "against" illegals. It's just the liberal news reporters love to broadcast all of these scenes of "inhumanities" from the center of some "sanctuary cities" like San Fransisco. I could care less about "their" problems. I don't feel any remorse at all. I look at it this way. You managed to save up thousands of dollars to pay a coyote to smuggle your ass across the border. Then you get here broke and want food, medical, shelter, etc, etc. You could have saved your money and stayed in Mexico. "Oh but my sister is there and she says I can get a job because the hotel management doesn't check for Green Cards."

So friggin what? Who gives a rat's ass? Your sister is here illegally and you want to be here illegally and the whole fucking Mexican population wants to be here. Why? Why did Mexico have to be south of us? Why couldn't we have a North and South Canada?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Hot off the press

Protesters call for overhaul of immigration policy


----------



## cptnkrunch

This dude makes way to much sense. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmDZOWm1Hfk&NR=1]YouTube - I Wanna be an Illegal Immigrant...[/ame]


----------



## cptnkrunch

This is nuts.
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

This says it all about our government.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO2eh6f5Go0]YouTube - Tim Hawkins - The Government Can[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> This dude makes way to much sense.
> 
> YouTube - I Wanna be an Illegal Immigrant...



If you allow illegals to break any of our laws how do you expect to enforce any others? Why should we obey laws?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Supreme Court to review Arizona law


----------



## longfxukxnhair

524 Guard troops being sent to Ariz. border by late Aug.


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Supreme Court to review Arizona law



...and what good will that do? Just more bull shit in the mix.


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> 524 Guard troops being sent to Ariz. border by late Aug.



Wonder if they are going to let them fire on anyone? Probably the old detain em crap. Then we keep them in a jail and feed them and there are 30 persons involved in the chain of command and one detainee costs about $1000 a day. 

Great.

I hope all 542 make it back home, because the illegals have weapons and they don't want to get caught, especially the coyote's.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wonder if they are going to let them fire on anyone? Probably the old detain em crap. Then we keep them in a jail and feed them and there are 30 persons involved in the chain of command and one detainee costs about $1000 a day.
> 
> Great.
> 
> I hope all 542 make it back home, because the illegals have weapons and they don't want to get caught, especially the coyote's.



Obama said he is sending them for the drug runners and the violence on the border. Dont believe he is going to use these troops to stop illegal crossing.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Obama said he is sending them for the drug runners and the violence on the border. Dont believe he is going to use these troops to stop illegal crossing


According to Brewer they're all smuggling drugs. What was she thinking? That will be one that's going to come back and bite her, you know the feds and civil rights groups will use this to discredit her and the bill, guaranteed.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> According to Brewer they're all smuggling drugs. What was she thinking? That will be one that's going to come back and bite her, you know the feds and civil rights groups will use this to discredit her and the bill, guaranteed.



They were doing that before she ever said it. No biggie


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

MartyStrat54 said:


> one detainee costs about $1000 a day.



shit....thats county jail money....Military would be at least $15,000


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Obama, activists to push on immigration reform


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buggs.Crosby said:


> shit....thats county jail money....Military would be at least $15,000



Oh I forgot that the General needs to get paid and his aides and the attache to the White House and the Senators with the Military Appropriations Committee...so you are right.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh I forgot that the General needs to get paid and his aides and the attache to the White House and the Senators with the Military Appropriations Committee...so you are right.



don't forget about the little things like Dish network and ice cream


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Employees fired after missing work to protest immigration law


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

that Union will be no longer soon.....union is nothing more than money stealer as well.....not the workers just elected asswipes


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> that Union will be no longer soon.....union is nothing more than money stealer as well.....not the workers just elected asswipes



Unions are pretty weak out here. I could tell you a story about mine Local 86.


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Unions are pretty weak out here. I could tell you a story about mine Local 86.



Yeah Arizona is a "Right To Work" state. There are unions and they get all the state and federal jobs. You know, the one's that cost so much to complete and they're never on time.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Arizona immigration law exodus pushing problem to other states


----------



## plankbadger

Is Arizona a nice place to live?


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Arizona immigration law exodus pushing problem to other states



I like the part about the "unmarried" couple who had the time to have three children in the US. "Oh if we make lots of babies, surely they will let us stay." I wonder who paid for all the medical bills?

This exodus it very similar to when California tightened up its southern border. That's when they all started coming up through Arizona.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like the part about the "unmarried" couple who had the time to have three children in the US. "Oh if we make lots of babies, surely they will let us stay." I wonder who paid for all the medical bills?
> 
> This exodus it very similar to when California tightened up its southern border. That's when they all started coming up through Arizona.



I hope there will come a time when a president and a congress will start protecting the constitution and we the people. Seems like most politicians are content with using the constitution to wipe their ass


----------



## Michael1987xl

I've sort of stayed away from this one for a while but I have to say something about it, in a broad sense, anyway.

Putting the actual law aside for minute, the debate itself makes me seriously wonder what’s happened to the left in this country, I really do. For all their intellectualism and high-mindedness, somewhere along the way, it became absolutely permissible within their ranks to support any idea, regardless of how extreme, idiotic or hair brained it is, as long as it’s anti-conservative (whatever that means) and you follow it up with “_Don’tcha just hate Bush?_”, as if you had to be some holier-than-thou liberal leftist to feel that way and that there aren’t a bunch of Republicans around who’d like to punch him in the dick for ruining our party. This whole immigration debacle and, as it happens, its focus on Arizona in particular, provides a perfect backdrop to examine this.

Some of you may be too young to remember all this, but during the 1970’s, the left in this country organized, promoted and supported some the biggest boycotts in, literally, world history. These boycotts centered on produce grown in the southwest and California. Always leading the pack among numerous reasons for the boycotts, regardless of much of the revised history you’ll find now, was the fact that these produce goods were being picked by immigrant, migrant farm workers, almost universally from Mexico, who were doing a job Americans wouldn’t do, for a wage they’d never work for. This was commonly understood to be “Exploitation” in polite circles. People with IQ’s above room temperature and those who weren’t quite so PC called it “Slave Labor”; either way, you get the point that it was, quite simply, wrong, if not immoral. The boycott against the California grapes, in fact, is generally regarded as the most successful in history and led to the birth of the United Farm Workers Association. There was really good reason to support these boycotts regardless of one’s political affiliation; not only were these farms and their practices absolutely exploitive of the migrant labor they employed, they were crushing the American farm workers who couldn’t get a job anymore in an economy that, for the first time since World War II, was really starting to show signs of substantial strain. In short, these boycotts essentially forced the farmers to do the right thing, because the country was doing the right thing.

So now, what is it? Is underpaying immigrant, migrant Mexican Farm Workers to do a job Americans won’t do no longer exploitative? Maybe even fashionable? Or, more to the point, is slave labor now at least acceptable as long as you can afford more oranges, lettuce and grapes? Is any and all of this exploitative practice OK as long as “you just hate Bush?” I realize that Slave labor built the pyramids, but, c'mon; wrong is wrong, be it 4000 years later, 40 years later or otherwise. I mean, I really don’t give damn how twisted the “rights” arguments have become in the years since the boycotts or since Ramses' bullies were whipping the backs of Israelites. Exploitation is exploitation, slavery is slavery and living like Pharaohs off the backs off people forced to live in abject poverty is still immoral and I don’t care who your God is, what party you hope to get the slaves to subscribe to or which imaginary friend you pray to on Capitol Hill or in the White House.

Now, with a specific focus on the Arizona law, are there serious, far reaching, Constitutional, specifically, _Fourth Amendment_ issues with the Arizona Law? Oh yeah, believe it and in a seriously major, major way, too; I even believe them to be fatal at the Federal level. Even so, and unfortunately for those who oppose the law, that’s a completely separate issue from the necessity to press the enforcement of our current immigration laws and secure our borders. These are not the same things, on any level and the fact of the matter is that given the human and moral inequities of migrant farm work, sooner or later, these laws are going to be enforced rather than repealed; that is an inevitability. The question which needs to be addressed, then, is what _will_ suffice as probable cause for officer to investigate a suspected act of illegal immigration? Simply "looking like an illegal Mexican" clearly should _never_ be sufficient; the potential for abuse by Officers is too great with a threshold that low. 

The problem, though, is since the act of, simply, being somewhere you shouldn't be IS the actual crime we're seeking to address, what is legally sufficient to make an officer believe that a crime was probably committed and "that person" probably committed it? Somebody better figure that out and right quick, too, because if you don't, you're going to see a lot more laws like the one in Arizona. And here's the scary part; whether the laws and the lack of/amount of enforcement permits or prevents slave labor won't be the issue any longer and not all these laws will fail at the Federal level; certainly not after the Supreme Court reviews a few of them and lets everybody know exactly which "buzz words" they need to contain to pass Constitutional muster and keep all the high-minded liberal lefties happy. Believe it; this is how it gets done, like it or not.

Anyway, like I said, I just don’t know what happened to the left in this country. If they were to take an honest, unbiased look at this from a historical perspective, I don’t think they would know what happened to them, either.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Michael1987xl said:


> I've sort of stayed away from this one for a while but I have to say something about it, in a broad sense, anyway.
> 
> Putting the actual law aside for minute, the debate itself makes me seriously wonder what’s happened to the left in this country, I really do. For all their intellectualism and high-mindedness, somewhere along the way, it became absolutely permissible within their ranks to support any idea, regardless of how extreme, idiotic or hair brained it is, as long as it’s anti-conservative (whatever that means) and you follow it up with “_Don’tcha just hate Bush?_”, as if you had to be some holier-than-thou liberal leftist to feel that way and that there aren’t a bunch of Republicans around who’d like to punch him in the dick for ruining our party. This whole immigration debacle and, as it happens, its focus on Arizona in particular, provides a perfect backdrop to examine this.
> 
> Some of you may be too young to remember all this, but during the 1970’s, the left in this country organized, promoted and supported some the biggest boycotts in, literally, world history. These boycotts centered on produce grown in the southwest and California. Always leading the pack among numerous reasons for the boycotts, regardless of much of the revised history you’ll find now, was the fact that these produce goods were being picked by immigrant, migrant farm workers, almost universally from Mexico, who were doing a job Americans wouldn’t do, for a wage they’d never work for. This was commonly understood to be “Exploitation” in polite circles. People with IQ’s above room temperature and those who weren’t quite so PC called it “Slave Labor”; either way, you get the point that it was, quite simply, wrong, if not immoral. The boycott against the California grapes, in fact, is generally regarded as the most successful in history and led to the birth of the United Farm Workers Association. There was really good reason to support these boycotts regardless of one’s political affiliation; not only were these farms and their practices absolutely exploitive of the migrant labor they employed, they were crushing the American farm workers who couldn’t get a job anymore in an economy that, for the first time since World War II, was really starting to show signs of substantial strain. In short, these boycotts essentially forced the farmers to do the right thing, because the country was doing the right thing.
> 
> So now, what is it? Is underpaying immigrant, migrant Mexican Farm Workers to do a job Americans won’t do no longer exploitative? Maybe even fashionable? Or, more to the point, is slave labor now at least acceptable as long as you can afford more oranges, lettuce and grapes? Is any and all of this exploitative practice OK as long as “you just hate Bush?” I realize that Slave labor built the pyramids, but, c'mon; wrong is wrong, be it 4000 years later, 40 years later or otherwise. I mean, I really don’t give damn how twisted the “rights” arguments have become in the years since the boycotts or since Ramses' bullies were whipping the backs of Israelites. Exploitation is exploitation, slavery is slavery and living like Pharaohs off the backs off people forced to live in abject poverty is still immoral and I don’t care who your God is, what party you hope to get the slaves to subscribe to or which imaginary friend you pray to on Capitol Hill or in the White House.
> 
> Now, with a specific focus on the Arizona law, are there serious, far reaching, Constitutional, specifically, _Fourth Amendment_ issues with the Arizona Law? Oh yeah, believe it and in a seriously major, major way, too; I even believe them to be fatal at the Federal level. Even so, and unfortunately for those who oppose the law, that’s a completely separate issue from the necessity to press the enforcement of our current immigration laws and secure our borders. These are not the same things, on any level and the fact of the matter is that given the human and moral inequities of migrant farm work, sooner or later, these laws are going to be enforced rather than repealed; that is an inevitability. The question which needs to be addressed, then, is what _will_ suffice as probable cause for officer to investigate a suspected act of illegal immigration? Simply "looking like an illegal Mexican" clearly should _never_ be sufficient; the potential for abuse by Officers is too great with a threshold that low.
> 
> The problem, though, is since the act of, simply, being somewhere you shouldn't be IS the actual crime we're seeking to address, what is legally sufficient to make an officer believe that a crime was probably committed and "that person" probably committed it? Somebody better figure that out and right quick, too, because if you don't, you're going to see a lot more laws like the one in Arizona. And here's the scary part; whether the laws and the lack of/amount of enforcement permits or prevents slave labor won't be the issue any longer and not all these laws will fail at the Federal level; certainly not after the Supreme Court reviews a few of them and lets everybody know exactly which "buzz words" they need to contain to pass Constitutional muster and keep all the high-minded liberal lefties happy. Believe it; this is how it gets done, like it or not.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I just don’t know what happened to the left in this country. If they were to take an honest, unbiased look at this from a historical perspective, I don’t think they would know what happened to them, either.




Exploited maybe, slaves no. They have come here on their own accord, why? Because "slave" conditions are better here than in their own country that they don't seem to want to fix . The slaves where I live drive escalades and hummers, get free food and medical, education,plenty of beer money etc.. who's a slave to who? I get up go to work and pay taxes to support these "slaves" and all their kids to have a better life here than in their own country. You can not fault and punish American citizens because they don't want to fix their own country, we are not their fault. Do you really think their all picking grapes cause their not. 


> The question which needs to be addressed, then, is what will suffice as probable cause for officer to investigate a suspected act of illegal immigration? Simply "looking like an illegal Mexican" clearly should never be sufficient; the potential for abuse by Officers is too great with a threshold that low.


Why does this need to be adressed? It's not about race it's about being here legally or illegally which is a crime according to our laws. If you cannot prove who you are, you should be detained until we do know. I believe this is well in our jurisdiction to know who the hell you are and why you're here. The illegals have made this into a race issue more than anyone else. They want to continue abusing our system and bankrupting states without a care in the world about the well being of this country. People are starting to finally notice that the majority of the abuse is coming from... guess where? Enough sympathy already.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iURwOkARlX8]YouTube - What if they Stole Your Springsteen Seats...[/ame]


----------



## rjohns1

Well said Capt. I could not agree more. I've read the law, and it specifically prohibits race from being a factor in initiating the law enforcement stop. It has to be for suspicion of breaking another law, like a traffic violation, or something else. Those who make this about race are flat out wrong. Don't believe me? Read it, it's in there. And Michael, I completely agree about the left. The do some crazy things just to be against the other side, without looking at what they are doing objectively.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Michael1987xl said:


> I've sort of stayed away from this one for a while but I have to say something about it, in a broad sense, anyway.
> 
> Putting the actual law aside for minute, the debate itself makes me seriously wonder what’s happened to the left in this country, I really do. For all their intellectualism and high-mindedness, somewhere along the way, it became absolutely permissible within their ranks to support any idea, regardless of how extreme, idiotic or hair brained it is, as long as it’s anti-conservative (whatever that means) and you follow it up with “_Don’tcha just hate Bush?_”, as if you had to be some holier-than-thou liberal leftist to feel that way and that there aren’t a bunch of Republicans around who’d like to punch him in the dick for ruining our party. This whole immigration debacle and, as it happens, its focus on Arizona in particular, provides a perfect backdrop to examine this.
> 
> Some of you may be too young to remember all this, but during the 1970’s, the left in this country organized, promoted and supported some the biggest boycotts in, literally, world history. These boycotts centered on produce grown in the southwest and California. Always leading the pack among numerous reasons for the boycotts, regardless of much of the revised history you’ll find now, was the fact that these produce goods were being picked by immigrant, migrant farm workers, almost universally from Mexico, who were doing a job Americans wouldn’t do, for a wage they’d never work for. This was commonly understood to be “Exploitation” in polite circles. People with IQ’s above room temperature and those who weren’t quite so PC called it “Slave Labor”; either way, you get the point that it was, quite simply, wrong, if not immoral. The boycott against the California grapes, in fact, is generally regarded as the most successful in history and led to the birth of the United Farm Workers Association. There was really good reason to support these boycotts regardless of one’s political affiliation; not only were these farms and their practices absolutely exploitive of the migrant labor they employed, they were crushing the American farm workers who couldn’t get a job anymore in an economy that, for the first time since World War II, was really starting to show signs of substantial strain. In short, these boycotts essentially forced the farmers to do the right thing, because the country was doing the right thing.
> 
> So now, what is it? Is underpaying immigrant, migrant Mexican Farm Workers to do a job Americans won’t do no longer exploitative? Maybe even fashionable? Or, more to the point, is slave labor now at least acceptable as long as you can afford more oranges, lettuce and grapes? Is any and all of this exploitative practice OK as long as “you just hate Bush?” I realize that Slave labor built the pyramids, but, c'mon; wrong is wrong, be it 4000 years later, 40 years later or otherwise. I mean, I really don’t give damn how twisted the “rights” arguments have become in the years since the boycotts or since Ramses' bullies were whipping the backs of Israelites. Exploitation is exploitation, slavery is slavery and living like Pharaohs off the backs off people forced to live in abject poverty is still immoral and I don’t care who your God is, what party you hope to get the slaves to subscribe to or which imaginary friend you pray to on Capitol Hill or in the White House.
> 
> Now, with a specific focus on the Arizona law, are there serious, far reaching, Constitutional, specifically, _Fourth Amendment_ issues with the Arizona Law? Oh yeah, believe it and in a seriously major, major way, too; I even believe them to be fatal at the Federal level. Even so, and unfortunately for those who oppose the law, that’s a completely separate issue from the necessity to press the enforcement of our current immigration laws and secure our borders. These are not the same things, on any level and the fact of the matter is that given the human and moral inequities of migrant farm work, sooner or later, these laws are going to be enforced rather than repealed; that is an inevitability. The question which needs to be addressed, then, is what _will_ suffice as probable cause for officer to investigate a suspected act of illegal immigration? Simply "looking like an illegal Mexican" clearly should _never_ be sufficient; the potential for abuse by Officers is too great with a threshold that low.
> 
> The problem, though, is since the act of, simply, being somewhere you shouldn't be IS the actual crime we're seeking to address, what is legally sufficient to make an officer believe that a crime was probably committed and "that person" probably committed it? Somebody better figure that out and right quick, too, because if you don't, you're going to see a lot more laws like the one in Arizona. And here's the scary part; whether the laws and the lack of/amount of enforcement permits or prevents slave labor won't be the issue any longer and not all these laws will fail at the Federal level; certainly not after the Supreme Court reviews a few of them and lets everybody know exactly which "buzz words" they need to contain to pass Constitutional muster and keep all the high-minded liberal lefties happy. Believe it; this is how it gets done, like it or not.
> 
> Anyway, like I said, I just don’t know what happened to the left in this country. If they were to take an honest, unbiased look at this from a historical perspective, I don’t think they would know what happened to them, either.




I will get back to this post when I get back in town. But I wanted to say the following. If you go back to the early 1900's to today you will see how the left is a huge contradiction.


----------



## Michael1987xl

cptnkrunch said:


> Exploited maybe, slaves no. They have come here on their own accord, why? Because "slave" conditions are better here than in their own country that they don't seem to want to fix . The slaves where I live drive escalades and hummers, get free food and medical, education,plenty of beer money etc.. who's a slave to who? I get up go to work and pay taxes to support these "slaves" and all their kids to have a better life here than in their own country. You can not fault and punish American citizens because they don't want to fix their own country, we are not their fault. Do you really think their all picking grapes cause their not.



I think you're misunderstanding me here. I was using the migrant farm workers as something of an analogy. The point is that the people who at one time were so opposed to exploiting cheap, illegal labor on some well founded moral ground are now all about allowing it because they profit from it, amass political power from it and live well (perhaps even better than they should) because of it. Certainly, the people who are not just crossing the border but, quite literally, infiltrating this country, aren't just picking grapes anymore; in fact, they're living quite well in some instances, as you point out, by raping the system. Unfortunately, that's merely a symptom of the illegal immigration problem; the root cause remains the issue. The truth of the matter, however, is that the vast majority of the illegals are not living like millionaires; this does not make their negative impact on the country any less, however they want to paint it.

I also agree that to a great extent, the Americans who work, pay their taxes and abide by the laws are in a very real respect slaves to those who mooch off of them; this is especially true for those who are forced to work multiple jobs just to keep food in their children's mouths, all for what easily equal slave wages because they're competing with people who not only work for less, but get the boost of surreptitiously obtained public assistance. If anything, my post is a condemnation of the left for their ability to switch Moral Teams, as it were, simply because they've been able to figure out a way to keep things cheap for themselves and acquire political clout by allowing this condition for their own benefit at the expense of legal residents who may not be quite as fortunate.

The real horror here is that American citizens will continue to be punished if the only solution anyone can come up with are laws like the Arizona statute, simply because that law will not survive and the problem isn't going to merely persist; it's going to explode.



> Why does this need to be adressed? It's not about race it's about being here legally or illegally which is a crime according to our laws. If you cannot prove who you are, you should be detained until we do know. I believe this is well in our jurisdiction to know who the hell you are and why you're here. The illegals have made this into a race issue more than anyone else. They want to continue abusing our system and bankrupting states without a care in the world about the well being of this country. People are starting to finally notice that the majority of the abuse is coming from... guess where? Enough sympathy already.



Again, you're misreading me. I have no sympathy for the illegals and have only the strongest desire to see them get the hell out. Also, I don't mean to say it's a race issue, hence my use of quotation marks. 

My point is that once you write a law that provides for the abdication of really basic Constitutional rights against search and seizure and allows law enforcement a small foothold of intrusion into an area they shouldn't otherwise have, you're kicking a real hornets' nest open. You run the risk of turning law enforcement into nothing more than thugs who work for the government, and then we're really screwed. That's what needs to be addressed and where I see the Arizona law as having a genuine Constitutional problem; I thought I was clear, but maybe I wasn't. If anyone is under some mistaken notion that allowing the police to "check everyone's papers" isn't a dangerous idea, they're wrong; this will not stop at just someone that's already suspected of committing a crime, I assure you of that much. I deal with this kind of thing all day everyday; the restraints that are in place are there for any number of _very_ good reasons, and I'm telling you this as a guy who comes about as conservative as you'll find and currently lives in a State where the 4th Amendment is chipped away at on a constant, disturbingly consistent basis. 

Having said all this, don't believe, even for a minute, that merely because the law provides a caveat against racial profiling that it won't happen. I know the lies that get told to get around that. I hear them, in one form or another, everyday for any number of reasons and in any situation you can imagine. Suffice it to say that lectures are given on how to do it as part of regular training. That is, like it or not, where this law will be successfully attacked; on its potential for abuse. And they'll win, every time, too. I don't like it anymore than you do, but that's how it's going to go down.

You can believe what you like, but the fact of the matter is that no one needs to be able prove anything to anyone about their status or why they're anywhere and it isn't in anyone's Constitutional jurisdiction to require that they do. Current media hype to the contrary and the Arizona law not withstanding, this isn't the first time that this issue has been in play in the United States, even in the last 10 or 15 years, and the law on it is quite clear. In case we forget, it's the State that bears the burden of proving their accusations to the contrary; be glad it's been that way for well over 200 years. Things would be considerably different if they weren't. Trying to resolve a bad problem with an equally bad "solution", particularly one which takes some necessary restraints off law enforcement and the government as a whole is never the right idea, particularly when you begin to see how the process will inevitably be abused and then realize who's going to get caught in the cross-fire.

More succinctly, though, the real reason this needs to be addressed is because without establishing some real clear, sound method of establishing some palpable probable cause for checking somebody's status out, leftist groups in this country, like the ACLU, are going to be very successful in tearing down laws like the one in Arizona and the illegal immigration battle is going to be lost. 



longfxukxnhair said:


> I will get back to this post when I get back in town. But I wanted to say the following. If you go back to the early 1900's to today you will see how the left is a huge contradiction.



Oh, I think the left has been a huge contradiction longer than that. To paraphrase one of their heroes, their answer is always "blowin' in the wind"; its the current direction of the breeze that's the problem here.


----------



## gunboatstudio

I just saw an episode of Reno 911 that made me think of this thread. 

A group of gun-toting right-wing Americans wanted to build 50 feet of fence on the Mexican border. It was a symbolic gesture that Americans had to work for Americans to keep illegal immigrants out. They raised an American flag, drank beer, shot guns, and started building the fence.

But then it was hot. And building a fence is hard work. So they were all just lying around complaining, and a group of Mexicans wandered by. The Americans were like "Hey! You guys want to make $40?" And then the Mexicans did the work that the Americans didn't want to do!

I'd never weigh in on this issue publicly, myself. But I thought this was funny satire, so I figured I'd share.


----------



## rjohns1

Interesting article from Dick Morris, what really needs to happen:
OBAMA'S IMMIGRATION HYPOCRISY

By DICK MORRIS & EILEEN MCGANN

Published on DickMorris.com on July 1, 2010

When Obama could have passed comprehensive immigration reform - when he still had 60 Senate Democrats - he didn't lift a finger to push it. Now that he can't pass it - it is too late in the year, he doesn't have 60 votes, and many Democrats will defect - he aggressively pushes it in a national speech.

The opportunism and hypocrisy of his attempt to manipulate America's Latinos into forgetting his previous inaction is transparent and obvious. Polls show him losing Hispanics due to high and continuing unemployment and losing Congressional seats in the bargain, so Obama has dug up the immigration proposals of former President George W. Bush, dusted them off, and made them his own. He knows it won't pass. But he hopes that it will reignite Latino enthusiasm for his failing presidency and anger at Republicans for frustrating immigration reform.

In the process, Obama is neglecting the real answer to immigration. It is ridiculous to speak of sealing the border. A border of more than 1500 miles can't be sealed. It can't even be controlled. As long as people want to cross, they will be able to get over. Some won't make it. They will just keep trying until they do.

To sell his amnesty program for those already here, Obama raised the red herring of deportation, saying that we could never round up and send away 11 million people.

But he brushed over the real answer: To dry up the jobs. If employers would not hire illegal immigrants, they would stop coming here and those already here would pack up and go home of their own accord. Obama's promise, in his speech, to invigorate the enforcement of sanctions on employers who hire illegals rang hollow. If he hasn't done it over the past year and a half, what confidence do we have that he will see the light now?

Employer sanctions, a guest worker program at good wages with health care, and a national biometric identification card must be the pillars of a real solution to illegal immigration. The promise of amnesty would be totally unnecessary if there were no jobs here to lure them and hold them. Amnesty presents a false choice. It assumes that we cannot dry up the jobs. But we can!

Were companies to face heavy corporate fines and jail time for those who hired the illegal workers, they would stop hiring. If a guest worker program brought in a sufficient labor force to meet their needs - and returned them back home again - it would not be necessary to hire illegal immigrants.

But as long as employers can get away with hiring illegals and paying them starvation wages, they will do so. It is only when they face the prospect of prison that they will see the light and start paying good wages as part of a national guest worker program.

The cynicism of Obama in kindling hopes for amnesty only to see them certainly dashed is breathtaking. And his pushing the false choice of amnesty -- when eliminating the jobs that fuel illegal immigration is a readily available solution - is revolting.

He doesn't want a law. He wants a fight and he wants the votes that a fight may bring him. It is Chicago polarizing politics at its very worst.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's a reason why I didn't vote for this guy. I didn't buy into all of his charm that so many did. I wanted an experienced man in the White House, not some rookie senator. The Democrats and the President are still at this point in the game, trying to blame Bush. What a friggin' joke. The DEM's and the Prez need to take the blame for their inabilities and inaction.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Michael,
There's a lot of validity and correctness to what your saying and I understand better where your coming from. You are correct about having to show proof of status and the fact it is a violation of the constitution, unless you are suspected of a criminal violation then you can be detained and this is where it gets very gray. How do you do this without racial profiling and violating someones constitutional rights? This is the part of the bill that I think is poorly written and it will be contested by civil rights groups no doubt and as you mentioned they may win this one in court. It is however against federal law to enter into the country undocumented. We also have constitutional rights as citizens to be protected from invasion and I would say the illegal issue easily falls into that category. I'm not sure how amendment 14 is also going to play into this but it will in some form.


> If anyone is under some mistaken notion that allowing the police to "check everyone's papers" isn't a dangerous idea, they're wrong; this will not stop at just someone that's already suspected of committing a crime, I assure you of that much


This is already in use and "abused" in a lot of ways with the Homeland Security information act. Why would this not be applicable to the illegal immigration "invasion" that we currently have going on. With federal permission it is in sate and local jurisdiction to gather and have information of people we feel are a threat to national security and the liberties of the American people. The fact that the federal government is not taking decisive action to resolve this problem is in fact a violation of our constitutional rights as American citizen's. If lack of resolution continues I think a revolution is more of a reality than people think, I just hope it doesn't come to that but at the rate we're going............


----------



## cptnkrunch

MartyStrat54 said:


> There's a reason why I didn't vote for this guy. I didn't buy into all of his charm that so many did. I wanted an experienced man in the White House, not some rookie senator. The Democrats and the President are still at this point in the game, trying to blame Bush. What a friggin' joke. The DEM's and the Prez need to take the blame for their inabilities and inaction.


I also really like McCain and think he was the best one for the job, he did very well for AZ.....problem....he picked a running mate that doesn't have a flipp'n clue and it did make me question his judgment. I can't even phantom Palin in the oval office. I wish he could have held office instead of Bush but thats just wishful hindsight.


gunboatstudio said:


> I just saw an episode of Reno 911 that made me think of this thread.
> 
> A group of gun-toting right-wing Americans wanted to build 50 feet of fence on the Mexican border. It was a symbolic gesture that Americans had to work for Americans to keep illegal immigrants out. They raised an American flag, drank beer, shot guns, and started building the fence.
> 
> But then it was hot. And building a fence is hard work. So they were all just lying around complaining, and a group of Mexicans wandered by. The Americans were like "Hey! You guys want to make $40?" And then the Mexicans did the work that the Americans didn't want to do!
> 
> I'd never weigh in on this issue publicly, myself. But I thought this was funny satire, so I figured I'd share.


Sad part of this is it actually happened a few yrs ago.


----------



## rjohns1

MartyStrat54 said:


> There's a reason why I didn't vote for this guy. I didn't buy into all of his charm that so many did. I wanted an experienced man in the White House, not some rookie senator. The Democrats and the President are still at this point in the game, trying to blame Bush. What a friggin' joke. The DEM's and the Prez need to take the blame for their inabilities and inaction.



Well said Marty, well said.


----------



## Michael1987xl

cptnkrunch said:


> Michael,
> There's a lot of validity and correctness to what your saying and I understand better where your coming from. You are correct about having to show proof of status and the fact it is a violation of the constitution, unless you are suspected of a criminal violation then you can be detained and this is where it gets very gray. How do you do this without racial profiling and violating someones constitutional rights?



No worries. The _Ugly Truth_ is that it's an almost impossible task if you wish to stay within the law. As I said above, the real problem here is that, once you break it down, and isolate the actual crime, simply "being here when one shouldn't be", is the actual crime. It's not like speeding or a murder where you can just see what's wrong by looking at it. There is _no way_, short of examining someone's documents (or lack thereof) that you can just "see", separate and apart from anything else, that the crime "of being here" is being committed. That's a really tough, thorny nut to crack.

The solution, unfortunately, will likely turn out to be one of a number of really dangerous solutions. First, and this happens everyday, is to just flat-out violate a suspect's rights and lie about it later. You're going to find a lot of people who haven't committed any other crime other than border hopping suddenly being detained, questioned and _then_ found out because "they matched the description of a suspect of another crime", they were in "an area where suspicious activity had been reported", operating a motor vehicle erratically, and on and on; believe me, that list of High Court approved buzz-phrases has already been well established. I've got endless file cabinets chock full of 'em. Often, maybe even most of the time, it's the God's Honest Truth, but even once is enough to taint the whole thing. Once somebody learns to get away with this kind of thing, they generally don't forget it, regardless of other circumstances.

Next, you'll see any number of illegal consensual searches; that's another favorite here in the Garden State. Within the last year, consensual searches attendant to a motor vehicle stop have been outlawed in just about any form other than unless there's some contraband in plain view, the car wreaks of burning dope or there's a reasonable belief that there's weapon in car AND the suspect has access to it. So, now everyone's got their dime bags out on the console, there's smoke pouring out the car like it's in a _Cheech and Chong_ movie or the dude standing against the squad car has arms long enough to reach back to car, through the windows _and_ snake around into the trunk. Now, having said that, when you catch a bad guy, it's all good, but when some 18 year old doing nothing more than zipping along a little too quick in his Camaro gets popped, things get a little out of hand and people start worrying about their pensions, not so much.

Next, you'll just see laws with holes in them big enough for the ACLU to drive their tractor trailer through get struck down. Don't get me wrong, these laws will likely survive the initial _prima fascae_ challenges, because they'll contain caveats, just like the Arizona law, against racial profiling. Where they'll take their beatings, though, is after only a couple of years when its shown that certain tactics, like those mentioned above and more and worse, are being employed in their application. That's where this house of cards comes right down and we're all back to square one, maybe worse. Believe me, I know how these people operate.



> It is however against federal law to enter into the country undocumented. We also have constitutional rights as citizens to be protected from invasion and I would say the illegal issue easily falls into that category. I'm not sure how amendment 14 is also going to play into this but it will in some form.



Absolutely right, and that's is the BIG 'rub'. Nearly every civilized country in the world, except us, has kept its borders vigilantly secure because they knew what the problems would be if they didn't and they didn't want to be faced with the very messy prospect of trying to get all of that toothpaste back into the tubes after the fact. Keep in mind that they mostly have populations a fraction of ours, the vast majority of these countries do NOT have guarantees against unreasonable searches and often the accused is guilty until they prove themselves innocent; these are profound differences. They've got no trouble asking "Papers, please" and they _STILL_ didn't want to deal with this unholy mess so they lock up their borders tighter than a crab's ass.



> This is already in use and "abused" in a lot of ways with the Homeland Security information act. Why would this not be applicable to the illegal immigration "invasion" that we currently have going on. With federal permission it is in sate and local jurisdiction to gather and have information of people we feel are a threat to national security and the liberties of the American people. The fact that the federal government is not taking decisive action to resolve this problem is in fact a violation of our constitutional rights as American citizen's. If lack of resolution continues I think a revolution is more of a reality than people think, I just hope it doesn't come to that but at the rate we're going............



I think as I've pointed out above, you don't even need to look at HSA to find rampant abuse. Drive a bright red, slightly loud Mustang GT around for a week or two and you'll live it first hand and I don't care what anyone says to the contrary.

You know, Dennis Miller hit it right on the head one time. I'm not much for taking advice from comedians, but he remarked that if you noticed that 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi's, you're not a racist; you're minimally observant. The question, of course, remains what to do about it and not turn this all into one, big police state where anyone with a tan needs to live in fear of walking to the 7-11 when they forgot their driver's license with them.

You'll notice that what we're talking about here, time and time again, is mostly _the problem_ and not much in ways of acceptable solutions; that's because they may actually NOT be any. That's where it gets scary, because you begin to realize that things have, in fact, gotten _so_ out of hand all ready, there isn't much that can be done about it _without_ giving up some really sacred protections for the rest of us. While this all should have been avoided to begin with, its also the left's strongest argument in perpetuating the problem. You're going to hear a whole lot of that in the not-so-distant years to come, believe me. They LOVE twisting that stuff around for their own devices, too. What ideologue wouldn't? There's been plenty of this on the neo-right, too, but don't kid yourself about where they learned it from. That's what drives me nuts about them. 

The first thing that has to happen, _without_ question, is locking down the borders; that's National Management 101, for Christ's sake. Unfortunately, that's going to require a cultural readjustment among a very powerful group of people who are running things, who literally encourage this going on because it keeps McDonald's burgers cheap, they can afford to have somebody else mow their lawn and once they get their "legal" status they can sign 'em up to vote their way on everything else. If you can make all of that happen, regardless of how long it will take and how rough that fight will inevitably be, you've still got your hands full with the _status quo_ alone. If I were to venture a guess, I think the Powers That Be who are enacting laws like the Arizona statute know all of this; I'm not exactly inventing the wheel, here. My bet is that they're hoping that while it stands, this law will at least thin the heard to a degree that once it's struck down and more "reasonable" measures are forcibly put into place, it may be easier to deal with. Wishful thinking? Perhaps, but they're running out of options quickly.

Now, are we on our way to all out revolution? Suffice it to say that I hope not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you read some of my prior posts I stated that the country is "ripe" for all out revolution. The White Supremacist groups are armed and ready just waiting for a spark to set them off. And who's to blame for it? Answer: The White House.

The Big O garnished the Latino vote and that's what got him elected. How dare he get involved in the immigration issue, especially with elections coming up again. The DEM's had all the power and they got it quickly, but just as fast, they will loose it, because Obama is a poor leader. Everyone knows it. I wonder what he will be remembered the most for? 

And to the 11 million (or whatever the actual number is) illegal aliens that are here rapidly multiplying with USA babies as if that is their ticket to amnesty, I say, "Go screw yourself." You are breaking Federal law by being here. I don't care about "your story." It's not going to move me to pity. You had your babies at the cost of the American tax payers. More than likely your food and housing is all part of some Federal program to help the poor. You have devastated these programs by lying to get aid. You use false documentation to move about the community. I don't know if I can get toothpaste back in the tube, but I would damn sure give it a go.

Some people hoped that Arizona's new law would drive the illegals back south. Sad to say, a lot of them are trying to get as far north as they can. That's how determined these people are to break the laws. Did you ever wonder how they bought their car or how they got a driver's license? "They broke the law and lied." If it was me and I got caught, legal action would be taken against me. So they are heading north to "sanctuary cities" to seek refuge and sponge off of the taxpayers.

Keep in mind that most of the illegals that were smuggled into this country "paid" up to $10,000 for the coyotes' services. So they managed to save $10,000 just to be smuggled across the border, but once they get here they have nothing, except maybe some drugs to sell (sic).

Another thing that complicates matters is that many of the countries churches have come together to provide a "hiding place" for illegals. Then the church pays for their food and other necessities and instills in them that they are "safe" and that they are not law breakers, but rather desperate people.

I've said this a million times. We have given Mexico so many loans and aid that we should own Mexico. Mexico cannot control Mexico. Vincente Fox was a crook. Maybe that's why Bill Clinton took a shine to him. Felipe de Jesus Calderon Hinojosa (wow) is another drug cartel puppet. If the Mexican drug cartel can knock off all the mayor's and police chief's, then how hard would it be for them to take El Presidente out? The drug cartel is the real power in Mexico. The average citizen is terrified of them. The sad part is it will only get worse. The drug cartels have already put some of their most ruthless members into the main cities along the border. Within the Hispanic community, these thugs are highly feared. So the bottom line is Mexico is never going to be able to help control the border...ever, never.

I could go on forever as there are so many tangents to this issue. I think that the Arizona law is a step in the right direction. The Federal government might not like being undermined, but it's about time someone did something.


----------



## cptnkrunch

This is the kinda shit that just makes me shake my head. Ca allows the illegals to bankrupt their state and then passes the buck to citizens that are being responsible and going to work. They're not laying around spitting out anchor babies they can't afford and we pay for. If I was a state employee in Ca disgruntled would be an understatement to say the least. One way to get people's attention..... hit them in the pocketbook although in this case they're digging in the wrong pockets. 
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's Plan to Slash Pay to Minimum Wage Sparks Outrage in California


----------



## Micky

I mean jesus! What part of illegal don't people understand?


----------



## Gryphon

I just heard about this on another forum. This is a section of the Penal Code in, yes, CALIFORNIA:

"834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
federal immigration laws.
(b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
of being present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
following:
(1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
(2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
who is present in the United States in violation of federal
immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
leave the United States.
(3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
status and provide any additional information that may be requested
by any other public entity.
(c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
prohibited."

....so if an illegal gets arrested in CA, for any reason, they should be toast. But how do you hold CA Govt officials accountable to this law?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Gryphon said:


> ....so if an illegal gets arrested in CA, for any reason, they should be toast. But how do you hold CA Govt officials accountable to this law?



vote them out of office!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

buggs.crosby said:


> vote them out of office!



+1000


----------



## longfxukxnhair

United States comes full circle in familiar immigration debate


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH! IT'S ON NOW!!!!

Feds sue to block Arizona illegal immigrant law - Yahoo! News

I told you guys it was coming and now it's here!!!

Citing Conflict with Federal Law, Department of Justice Challenges Arizona Immigration Law

GO ERIC HOLDER!!!!!!!

NO WAY THIS LAW STAYS IN THE BOOKS!

Now let's see just how bad all you guys REALLY want this bill, now that the federal government, with it's almost unlimited resources, takes your state to court and bleeds it for millions $$$ as it tries to save this bill and turn it into law. Those who really want this bill better start sending Jan Brewer some more money because she is gonna need it!


----------



## Gryphon

Well there you go; high profile legal issue, in comes the Justice Dept. But hang on a minute - when is the Justice Dept going to sue California over its penal code 843b, that I quoted above? Or LA City Council over LAPD Special Order 40? Or don't those come under the "patchwork of state and local immigration policies throughout the country".....lol


----------



## MM54

@Monster: 

@Gryphon: Indeed.

---

Anyways, there was a big long article in the Pittsburgh paper about it today, repeated what the article linked to above says, and I still don't see where the problem comes in that makes the law unconstitutional?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MonstersOfTheMidway said:


> AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW YEAH! IT'S ON NOW!!!!
> 
> Feds sue to block Arizona illegal immigrant law - Yahoo! News
> 
> I told you guys it was coming and now it's here!!!
> 
> Citing Conflict with Federal Law, Department of Justice Challenges Arizona Immigration Law
> 
> GO ERIC HOLDER!!!!!!!
> 
> NO WAY THIS LAW STAYS IN THE BOOKS!
> 
> Now let's see just how bad all you guys REALLY want this bill, now that the federal government, with it's almost unlimited resources, takes your state to court and bleeds it for millions $$$ as it tries to save this bill and turn it into law. Those who really want this bill better start sending Jan Brewer some more money because she is gonna need it!



Yeah and what does that get us? We will be back at square one with the FED's doing what they always do...nothing to prevent illegals from entering the country. Obama is a douche bag. At least he will be just a one term president.


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

MM54 said:


> @Monster:
> 
> @Gryphon: Indeed.
> 
> ---
> 
> Anyways, there was a big long article in the Pittsburgh paper about it today, repeated what the article linked to above says, and I still don't see where the problem comes in that makes the law unconstitutional?


 
What do you mean by ? The writing of the two pieces is as clear as day, MM. The article in yahoo and the press release from the DOJ state that the federal government is going to challenge AZ SB1070, and block it. Have you not been reading the news lately? It's no bogus story.

I understand the logic behind the challenge and it is something I've always said was an obvious obstacle: a state can't assume the responsibilities of the federal government when it comes to immigration. AZ has always used the false logic that it is simply complimenting federal law, but it's clear that the federal government views immigration issues as its business, and not the business of any state.

I always said this was gonna happen, but now AZ citizens are going to really see how their state responds. As far as money goes, it's always an issue whenever a state's laws or proposed legislation is challenged by the federal government: how much money is a state willing to commit to something before they give up and decide it's no longer worth it. Check this out: Arizona Border Security Information Center. It's clear that by seeking donations, AZ governor knows what I've already stated: it's going to be expensive taking on the federal government. Will AZ institute emergency funding of it's citizens to help pay for this legal war? Will AZ institute an temporary emergency tax hike to help pay for this legal battle? Would AZ citizens want to see their tax dollars spent trying to fight this battle? I supporters of 1070 would think this bill/law is that important! I know that those who voted for it want to keep it, but you gotta look at the big picture, one of which is the cost. It would be better to ditch this badly written law and save the money it would cost to fight this in court. Instead, spend the money on AZ's hard-working police and fire fighters. I hope AZ legislators go back rethink about this issues. Maybe AZ can be the model for a new and better way for state's to deal with illegal immigration issues; 1070 is not the way. 

I've stated before that any state has the right and duty to protect it's citizens, but this is not the right way. AZ situtation regarding illegal immigration is serious, and I hope that AZ legislators pass good legislation and receive plenty of meaningful support from the federal government in the future. I am pleased that the federal government has stepped in and challenged what I have described as a badly written law. I support the DOJ and the U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder in their efforts to defeat this piece of legislature. AZ deserves better than 1070.


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

Gryphon said:


> I just heard about this on another forum. This is a section of the Penal Code in, yes, CALIFORNIA:
> 
> "834b. (a) Every law enforcement agency in California shall fully
> cooperate with the United States Immigration and Naturalization
> Service regarding any person who is arrested if he or she is
> suspected of being present in the United States in violation of
> federal immigration laws.
> (b) With respect to any such person who is arrested, and suspected
> of being present in the United States in violation of federal
> immigration laws, every law enforcement agency shall do the
> following:
> (1) Attempt to verify the legal status of such person as a citizen
> of the United States, an alien lawfully admitted as a permanent
> resident, an alien lawfully admitted for a temporary period of time
> or as an alien who is present in the United States in violation of
> immigration laws. The verification process may include, but shall not
> be limited to, questioning the person regarding his or her date and
> place of birth, and entry into the United States, and demanding
> documentation to indicate his or her legal status.
> (2) Notify the person of his or her apparent status as an alien
> who is present in the United States in violation of federal
> immigration laws and inform him or her that, apart from any criminal
> justice proceedings, he or she must either obtain legal status or
> leave the United States.
> (3) Notify the Attorney General of California and the United
> States Immigration and Naturalization Service of the apparent illegal
> status and provide any additional information that may be requested
> by any other public entity.
> (c) Any legislative, administrative, or other action by a city,
> county, or other legally authorized local governmental entity with
> jurisdictional boundaries, or by a law enforcement agency, to prevent
> or limit the cooperation required by subdivision (a) is expressly
> prohibited."
> 
> ....so if an illegal gets arrested in CA, for any reason, they should be toast. But how do you hold CA Govt officials accountable to this law?


 
"...they should be toast"? This is your view, Gryphon, of how the law should be in CA, and not actual. 

This is a good (good, not great) idea for a law. Why, you ask? If an illegal is arrested in CA by local law enforcement, it is because they have broken a law that everyone else (i.e. citizens, legal residents, etc.) in CA is subject to: there is not even a sense of descrimination against the illegal immigrant, nor is there special treatment in favor of the illegal immigrant. It's fair to all and that's how we "hold our CA Govt officials accountable." Our local law enforcement question, notify, cooperate, etc., but what CA doesn't do is apply a punishment nor make it the state's business to deport illegal immigrants. CA state law doesn't make being an illegal immigrant a state crime, and that's just fine by us, the majority, because there are other important things our local law enforcement can do to keep us safe. We assist the federal government, but we don't assume it's responsibilities.


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah and what does that get us?


 
"us"? I thought you lived in KC?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I do and we have a bunch of illegals running around here all the way from good old Mexico.

That's probably going to be good news for them. The coyotes are probably going to gear up for a bunch of invasions into our country in an effort to move more illegals in. Then they can rush down to the hospital and have their baby.

After that, they can use their illegal documents to get on welfare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I do and we have a bunch of illegals running around here all the way from good old Mexico.

That's probably going to be good news for them. The coyotes are probably going to gear up for a bunch of invasions into our country in an effort to move more illegals in. Then they can rush down to the hospital and have their baby.

After that, they can use their illegal documents to get on welfare. All paid for by the American tax payer's who are staring at what...17 trillion dollars in debt?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah and what does that get us? We will be back at square one with the FED's doing what they always do...nothing to prevent illegals from entering the country. Obama is a douche bag. At least he will be just a one term president.



Best fucking thing I have read on this forum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Marty, you score big fucking points for this! Obama sucks as a president. Right now its difficult to tell if Obama or Carter is worse. But Obama has 2.5 years left.

Fact is, we all knew the Obama admin would sue. Just because they are taking this to court doesnt mean they will win. 

If you really think about it, this all makes sense. Obama promised immigration reform would happen in his first year. That as we all know has not happened. The Dems really dont want to touch this before Nov. Since nothing will get done Obama had to take this to court. He had no choice. SB1070 does not create a new immigration policy. It enforces current Federal policy on the local level. Nothing more. The fed govt should (from what I have been told by a constitutional lawyer, Robert Natelson) fail in their attempt.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> We assist the federal government, but we don't assume it's responsibilities.


So........what happens if the Federal gov does not assume its responsibilities of the constitution? Isn't the Fed's failure to protect Az and other states from invasion in fact a violation of the constitution? No where does it state that "invasion" be defined as a military act only. I think Az should file a counter suit against the Fed's for violating their constitutional rights as a state of the union. I mean fuck the Feds gave us a written guarantee they would protect us from this shit.  



> Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution
> 
> 
> "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."


----------



## cptnkrunch

> If you really think about it, this all makes sense. Obama promised immigration reform would happen in his first year. That as we all know has not happened


I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing. Gut feeling tells me Washington's definition of reform is not in America's best intrest.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. When the FED's want a state to "comply" with Federal law, they use strong arm tactics such as pulling federal aid to the state, not funding roads and bridges and cutting down on education.

BUT if the state wants the FED's to "comply" they get sued. That is unbelievable. What a sissy girl way of handling this. Fact is, the FED's owe the American people big time. Obama is still trying to blame Bush and I'm getting sick of that and so are the news reporters.

Obama isn't the same old arrogant jack like he was during the election. It looks like he is revealing himself more each day as a clueless wonder.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cptnkrunch said:


> I'm not so sure that this is a bad thing. Gut feeling tells me Washington's definition of reform is not in America's best intrest.



Yeah, I can tell you what Obama's reform would be. Real simple, "Amnesty."

Amnesty for 11 million illegal aliens. Think about that?

A vast majority of these illegals have used forged documents to "get their right to vote!!!" The DEM's know this and the DEM's know that they need the illegal Hispanic vote to stay in power. Now talk about a mess of pure BS! The Obama party is willing to allow federal law to be broken to enable re-election.

And I thought Nixon was a crook.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Obama isn't the same old arrogant jack like he was during the election. It looks like he is revealing himself more each day as a clueless wonder


True dat.....You can't make this shit up.

The lack of action to this problem is IMO one of the biggest insults to the American people ever.


----------



## Gryphon

> This is your view, Gryphon, of how the law should be in CA, and not actual.
> 
> This is a good (good, not great) idea for a law. Why, you ask? If an illegal is arrested in CA by local law enforcement, it is because they have broken a law that everyone else (i.e. citizens, legal residents, etc.) in CA is subject to: there is not even a sense of descrimination against the illegal immigrant, nor is there special treatment in favor of the illegal immigrant. It's fair to all and that's how we "hold our CA Govt officials accountable." Our local law enforcement question, notify, cooperate, etc., but what CA doesn't do is apply a punishment nor make it the state's business to deport illegal immigrants. CA state law doesn't make being an illegal immigrant a state crime, and that's just fine by us, the majority, because there are other important things our local law enforcement can do to keep us safe. We assist the federal government, but we don't assume it's responsibilities.



Er, no, the code I quoted is actually current CA law, not my view of what it should be. Surprised? Yes, I was too.

My point was that if the Federal suit wins, all this 'patchwork' of contradictory or supplementary laws and policies will sooner or later have to go away.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> so........what happens if the federal gov does not assume its responsibilities of the constitution? Isn't the fed's failure to protect az and other states from invasion in fact a violation of the constitution? No where does it state that "invasion" be defined as a military act only. I think az should file a counter suit against the fed's for violating their constitutional rights as a state of the union. I mean fuck the feds gave us a written guarantee they would protect us from this shit.



+100000000


----------



## Gryphon

I think some of you are missing a key point. Before you complain loudly that the Fed isn't doing what it should to enforce immigration laws, think about how hard that is if your State and City authorities have policies or even laws preventing all State and City employees of cooperating with the Fed. The failure of States and Cities to support the Fed is a major contributor to Federal ineffectiveness. 

For example, isn't Phoenix a 'sanctuary city'? As in Phoenix, Arizona?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> I think some of you are missing a key point. Before you complain loudly that the Fed isn't doing what it should to enforce immigration laws, think about how hard that is if your State and City authorities have policies or even laws preventing all State and City employees of cooperating with the Fed. The failure of States and Cities to support the Fed is a major contributor to Federal ineffectiveness.
> 
> For example, isn't Phoenix a 'sanctuary city'? As in Phoenix, Arizona?



Mayor Gordon has been trying to do that. But hasnt pulled it off all the way.

But you are right G. 

The problem is if they wont enforce all the laws why should I obey any?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. Why can't I be selective about the laws that I want to abide by? Oh, I want to murder someone. No problem. However, I will obey the traffic light. It's all horse shit. I loose it if I start thinking too deep about all of this stuff. The big political machine where they get paid on time, every time, but Billy the construction worker is trying to find a way to make ends meet for his family.

The modern American politician. "Screwing you since 1776."


----------



## Gryphon

Gentlemen, I think we are all in agreement. Now we can sit back and let the Fed and Arizona sort out who does what in immigration, and hope the outcome resolves at least some of this mess.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Gentlemen, I think we are all in agreement. Now we can sit back and let the Fed and Arizona sort out who does what in immigration, and hope the outcome resolves at least some of this mess


Yep, It will be interesting to see how check's and balance's handles this one.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> Exactly. Why can't I be selective about the laws that I want to abide by? Oh, I want to murder someone. No problem. However, I will obey the traffic light. It's all horse shit. I loose it if I start thinking too deep about all of this stuff. The big political machine where they get paid on time, every time, but Billy the construction worker is trying to find a way to make ends meet for his family.
> 
> The modern American politician. "Screwing you since 1776."



To quote a lyric...........Revolution calling!


----------



## Bieling3

washingtonpost.com


----------



## cptnkrunch

Bieling3 said:


> washingtonpost.com


They are going to have a field day with Brewer.....her credibility is getting worse everyday.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

cptnkrunch said:


> They are going to have a field day with Brewer.....her credibility is getting worse everyday.



yeah....but all she needs is Sarah Palin to make an appearance and her issue will hit the back burner......didnt the last time Sarah was in Arizona (2 months ago?) mention deporting all the legals back to New Mexico?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That would be a fine ticket, Palin and Brewer.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

the Dems would have the biggest landslide in history


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I was just joking Buggs. The Elephants would never let that even get out of the gate. They would make it go away.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> They are going to have a field day with Brewer.....her credibility is getting worse everyday.



Not true. She is still leading in the polls.


----------



## cptnkrunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Not true. She is still leading in the polls.


I'm not saying people are not behind her cause...... but the Fed's are going to dissect every thing she and other proponents of the bill say and any discrepancies or embellishments will be used to discredit her and the bill. It may or may not matter in the big picture....IDK. She really has said some stupid shit recently that made me think WTF. There is plenty of truthful ammo she could use without talking out the side of her neck.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I'm not saying people are not behind her cause...... but the Fed's are going to dissect every thing she and other proponents of the bill say and any discrepancies or embellishments will be used to discredit her and the bill. It may or may not matter in the big picture....IDK. She really has said some stupid shit recently that made me think WTF. There is plenty of truthful ammo she could use without talking out the side of her neck.



All politicians say stupid shit. She has had her fair share in a much shorter period of time.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> All politicians say stupid shit.


Fact


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm curious to see how this plays out. Obama could really hit the tank if he fails on this...and he could. It's amazing how many people will be watching this and keep in mind that the majority of Americans want a secure border "and" no amnesty. 

Personally, I don't see them rounding up all 11 million. Hell most of them are embedded now. However, if the AZ Bill stays, then I do see several million heading back and then maybe two more million when they start asking for ID's.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Political Insider: Sushi offers raw take on law protest


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Will SB 1070 help or hurt economy?

New day, new propaganda


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Man deported 10 times gets charges dismissed


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> Man deported 10 times gets charges dismissed



we can only hope the next time he enters he throws rocks at the border patrol first


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Man deported 10 times gets charges dismissed



What's unusual about this? This is par for the course. I like to think of all the times they didn't catch him. And as usual, he's a decent enough guy. One of Mexico's finest.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Man deported 10 times gets charges dismissed



Ya know it's mind fuk'n boggling to think there's idiots in this country that are stupid enough to want these people here....no their not all bad... but geeeeez...the bad apples have really ruined it for those that are not. I would like anyone that thinks illegals have a right to be here to go meet the father and mother of the girl that's been raped and brutally beaten to death by an illegal and ask them how they feel about illegal immigration. Few months ago there was a girl in our town raped by an illegal all jacked up on coke, he walked on the rape charge, they nailed him on a distribution charge....still. We pay millions and millions a yr to incarcirate as Marty said "mexico's finest" citizens. I read a stat that stated illegals are accountable for more US deaths in one yr than the Iraq war has claimed in three. I believe it was 2,200 a yr but I'm not a 100% on that......it does seem like a very realistic number.
There's some stats here that make you go Crime and illegal aliens in the U.S. - CAIR - Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Ya know it's mind fuk'n boggling to think there's idiots in this country that are stupid enough to want these people here....no their not all bad... but geeeeez...the bad apples have really ruined it for those that are not. I would like anyone that thinks illegals have a right to be here to go meet the father and mother of the girl that's been raped and brutally beaten to death by an illegal and ask them how they feel about illegal immigration. Few months ago there was a girl in our town raped by an illegal all jacked up on coke, he walked on the rape charge, they nailed him on a distribution charge....still. We pay millions and millions a yr to incarcirate as Marty said "mexico's finest" citizens. I read a stat that stated illegals are accountable for more US deaths in one yr than the Iraq war has claimed in three. I believe it was 2,200 a yr but I'm not a 100% on that......it does seem like a very realistic number.
> There's some stats here that make you go Crime and illegal aliens in the U.S. - CAIR - Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform



Did you know there are many police depts across the country dont have hispanic for a race category. So they go under the race of white-other. So they dont have solid numbers on stats. And they dont know if they are illegal.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Here is the latest. I really enjoyed the 1st paragraph. Made me laugh my ass off.

ICE director: States shouldn't follow Arizona lead


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

"As long as the federal government shows no interest in securing the border and no interest in internal enforcement to promote self-deportation, then states and localities will have to pick up the slack,"

absolutely correct


----------



## TwinACStacks

I think you guys are making WAY to much fuss over Illegal Aliens.


I say if they want this planet, let them have it.






 TWIN


----------



## cptnkrunch

Well I agree with him on this 
1. "I don't think that 50 different immigration enforcement laws is the answer to our immigration troubles," 
and this 
2. "Immigration - the entry of people in and out of the country - is clearly a federal responsibility," Morton said.

As far as #1 Then do your fuk'n job.
and for #2 See reply #1


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

cptnkrunch said:


> Well I agree with him on this
> 1. "I don't think that 50 different immigration enforcement laws is the answer to our immigration troubles,"
> and this
> 2. "Immigration - the entry of people in and out of the country - is clearly a federal responsibility," Morton said.
> 
> As far as #1 Then do your fuk'n job.
> and for #2 See reply #1



+1


----------



## longfxukxnhair

No one is wanting to create 50 different immigration policies. We just want the one we have enforced. And all levels of law enforcement should be involved.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

no one may want it but it's going to happen if the feds dont act


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> no one may want it but it's going to happen if the feds dont act



That wont happen. Once you create a new immigration policy in a state it will get smacked down by the Supreme court. It may not even need to go as high as the SC to get defeated.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

it has to go as high as them on appeals.....whether they decide to hear it or not is another story


----------



## longfxukxnhair

S. Dakota files brief supporting Arizona immigration law

Michigan filed they same supporting brief yesterday


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Pennsylvania is coming up as well......


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Pennsylvania is coming up as well......



Is it? I have not heard about that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've got all my guns cleaned and plenty of ammo. Let me know when the revolution starts. I wish the space aliens would show up.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've got all my guns cleaned and plenty of ammo. Let me know when the revolution starts. I wish the space aliens would show up.



Will do MS!


----------



## cptnkrunch

> I wish the space aliens would show up.


 They were just over China...so you know they're on their way here.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

he is an interesting one
Anti-immigration groups split on Utah list - Yahoo! News


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> he is an interesting one
> Anti-immigration groups split on Utah list - Yahoo! News



WOW! What a move. Its likely the person(s) who made this list will get in trouble and not the illegals on the list.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

here is what i was talking about yesterday
Brief for 9 states backs Arizona immigration law - Yahoo! News


----------



## MartyStrat54

Then it's 10 against the rest. I'll get my back pack and canteen. One AK47 with 40 round clip and my Beretta 40 cal. I'm ready.


----------



## Gryphon

The pen is mightier than the AK47.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Multiple responses:

1.It all depends on who you shot.

2.You're right. I have a pen that doubles as a 50 cal hand cannon.

Please pick only one answer.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> The pen is mightier than the AK47.



There was a time when I believed this to be true. But our elected officials (on both side) arent listening to the people any more. We as a people have become subjects.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Judge to hear lawsuit vs. Arizona's immigration law


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

want to side step all the bullshit they are talking about?.....make it mandatory to do a check on the legal status for any individual that is already being questioned for other legal reasons....


----------



## tonefreak

Gryphon said:


> The pen is mightier than the AK47.



I'd rather take an AK47 to battle then one of these!


----------



## MartyStrat54

tonefreak said:


> I'd rather take an AK47 to battle then one of these!



Yeah that's what I was talking about. Those were great before the metal detector days. Someone made one for a 50 cal S and W round. It is pretty big. They didn't try to make it look like a ballpoint pen. However, it was very easy to conceal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buggs.Crosby said:


> want to side step all the bullshit they are talking about?.....make it mandatory to do a check on the legal status for any individual that is already being questioned for other legal reasons....



We wouldn't have the space in our jails for all of these people. That's where the Fed's always like to go with all of this. They like to hide behind this shit. 

"Our jails and prisons are overcrowded, this would only worsen the matter."

"Oh okay, then do nothing."

"Thank you. That's what we intend to do...nothing."

One of these days, someone will call for more prisons to be built, so more people can be jailed. Look at all these light sentences that are based on prison population. If we had the space, then these law breakers would be doing their time.

Side note:You stick an illegal in jail for three years and he gets out and sneaks back into the USA. He is on the street, gets a weapon and then kills two cops as "retaliation." He then gets caught and is allowed a fair trial by his peers. Does this mean they bring in 12 illegals for the jury? Then the guy is found guilty, but they give him life, so the taxpayer is supporting him until he dies.

YES, IT'S A BIG FRIGGIN' PROBLEM INDEED.


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> There was a time when I believed this to be true. But our elected officials (on both side) arent listening to the people any more. We as a people have become subjects.



It's almost like colonial days. It's a giant cluster fuck. The individual states are fighting each other in regard to the latest news headlines and our Federal government is in shambles.

We need to reboot America.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

martystrat54 said:


> it's almost like colonial days. It's a giant cluster fuck. The individual states are fighting each other in regard to the latest news headlines and our federal government is in shambles.
> 
> We need to reboot america.



+1000


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> We need to reboot America.



Very true indeed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know if you study Germany's history prior to both WWI and WWII, you will see a lot of similarities in how things are in the US now and how they compare to Germany. I'm not going to light a fuse, but it is not a coincidence. History does repeat itself. If you don't know what I mean, then you need to study history more. It's right there in front of you.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know if you study Germany's history prior to both WWI and WWII, you will see a lot of similarities in how things are in the US now and how they compare to Germany. I'm not going to light a fuse, but it is not a coincidence. History does repeat itself. If you don't know what I mean, then you need to study history more. It's right there in front of you.



Again, you are right. Fascism came to America in the early 1920's. Basically a product of German intellectualism for those Americans who went to school in Europe. The left embraced it early on. But now both parties have embraced it. The health care debate was a good example. Much like you heard many Americans talking about their taxes going to pay for health care of those who are over weight and that to reduce cost the govt must "nudge" us in a certain direction as far as diet is concerned. Hitler too believed that nutrition wasnt a matter of privacy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, you are on the right track, but tie what the Germans did to the Jews with what America is doing with the illegal Mexicans. The Germans used mass propaganda. Our government is using propaganda as well. Are members of government telling us that the illegals are dangerous? That they can't be trusted? That they are evil? I could go on and on.

This is like doing the dishes. If you stay up on them, your sink is clear. Let them go for a year and you don't even want to tackle the chore.

This is what the government did. They let it get so big that they don't want to tackle it. However, to get the chore done, there will be hatred towards the illegals. Many people look at them as an enemy. "I didn't shoot someone today. I shot an enemy."

Another angle is the state of the union. Mass job lay-offs, homes being foreclosed, fuel prices, food, etc, etc. Germany not once but twice went through this and it resulted in war. If someone got on a soap box and said they could change the direction of the USA (no, not Obama), take away the multitude of problems...would you elect them? That's how Hitler came to power. The German people were tired and desperate.

You all know that I don't have a problem with Mexicans. I do however have a problem with those that break the laws. I have to abide by the laws and I have to pay taxes. Why should someone be allowed to stay here on the taxpayers dime? No, it needs to be resolved. How do other countries do it? Why aren't illegals fleeing to Canada? How do they keep them out? How do other nations keep illegals out of their country? Why are we so far behind?


----------



## tonefreak

hispanics don't like maple syrup and canadian geese.


they do however like taco bell.



lol jk


----------



## MartyStrat54

You may be on to something.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

MartyStrat54 said:


> We wouldn't have the space in our jails for all of these people. That's where the Fed's always like to go with all of this. They like to hide behind this shit.
> 
> "Our jails and prisons are overcrowded, this would only worsen the matter."



this would mean nothing with daily bus trips....at Mexico's expense....elect me Pres and watch it get done....along with the other "Real" shit that needs to be done.....i am not all about waving and smiling.....more like the finger and a smirk


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Arizona immigration law costs $77K to defend so far

Todays news flash

Do you get the idea that they are trying anything and everything to sway opinion away from support of SB1070?


----------



## cptnkrunch

Looks like my county may be waking up a bit.....not that many yrs ago we had very little if any of this element here in the mtn's.
Immigration bust nets 30 suspects | PostIndependent.com


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Looks like my county may be waking up a bit.....not that many yrs ago we had very little if any of this element here in the mtn's.
> Immigration bust nets 30 suspects | PostIndependent.com



Every lil bit counts!


----------



## cptnkrunch

longfxukxnhair said:


> Every lil bit counts!


Ok......this should be easy, only 17,999970 million to go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In regard to the costs, it's nice to see that 1.7 million has been "donated" to the legal fund. What does that tell you? Also, keep in mind that if Arizona wins than the Fed's could end up paying for Arizona's legal fees. 

That would be sweet, wouldn't it?


----------



## cptnkrunch

> That would be sweet, wouldn't it?


A certain bitter sweet, either way I guess we're paying for it.
Rah,Rah,Rah E Holder another waste of our $$$


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah your right. No matter how it turns out "we" will be paying for it. It's almost like they planned it that way.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Ok......this should be easy, only 17,999970 million to go.



LOL

If people on the local dont get involved we are screwed.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Is THIS one of those hate threads?

Love, Juan Carlos Gonzales


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Group's protest highlights kids' immigration woes

The left has shifted away from the "racist" tactic like I mentioned a few weeks ago. Now they are trying to tug at the heart strings by showing what it will do to families who have illegal aliens in the country. Fact is we didnt invite them into the country. They made a choice to willingly break our laws. This isnt our fault or our problem. It is theirs and now they need to deal with what they have created for themselves. Life is all about the choices we make and the outcome of those choices. If you break the laws you better be able to pay if you get caught!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The people that shout the loudest in an attempt to help the illegals are usually the one's who don't contribute anything financially to the cause. I guarantee that if good old "Bill Wilson" had to pay for some illegal to have three babies (with three fathers) and provide a five room house and food and utilities, he would be over here shouting over my shoulder, "Illegals go home."

People are funny like that. If it doesn't cost them anything they sometimes choose the wrong side. But let me make it clear. No matter what side you are on, it is costing everyone of us. The government isn't paying for any of this. The government is spending our money.


----------



## cptnkrunch

There is a harsh reality to it all. Imagine a kid thats been born and raised here, never even been to Mexico and all of a sudden you're moved to another country full of corruption, drugs and violence, few schools and few if any opportunities. It would fucking suck to say the least. It's not the kids fault that they are here but they will be paying a dear price for corporate America's appetite for cheap labor and the parents mistake for being undocumented. My view on immigration hasn't change but there is a human element to this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes there is, but if you let yourself go with it, where does it stop? Do you take care of 10 families? 100 families, or 100,000 families? The sad fact is for some reason, the poorest people tend to multiply like mice. I really don't know why that is. "Oh you poor child, here eat this." "Oh you poor child, here eat this." "Oh you poor child, here eat this." You get my point. Also, by taking care of them, it sends a message out to those waiting to sneak across that, "Someone will take care of you..."

And yes Mexico is all you said and more, but that's Mexico's problem. They have been given money and aid and they pissed it off and corrupt ass wipes like Vincente Fox skimmed from the Clinton "gift fund."

When I see illegals getting more aid than a Viet Nam vet, that pisses me off.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> The sad fact is for some reason, the poorest people tend to multiply like mice. I really don't know why that is.


 If we're talking America...... the more babies they have the more $$ we give them and not talked about much, there is no doubt in my mind that the latinos are on a mission to take over this country someday. Some may laugh at this but at the rate they're going just wait 40-50 yrs. I've been working shoulder to shoulder with them on a daily basis for a few decades now and some of the shit I hear in regards to having kids is very selfish and irresponsible to our countries future and health.......they don't care...... they have everything to gain and us everything to loose and they know it. They're taught to breed like rabbits over here. "Aye corumba" 



> When I see illegals getting more aid than a Viet Nam vet, that pisses me off.


Me too.....and it happens WTF. Talk about insulting and pathetic.

I was watching Steven Cobert a few weeks ago and listening to his "Take our jobs" campaign BS and thought what if we started the same campaign....illegals male and female could go to a military recruiter sign up for four yrs and leave immediatly to Iraq, take over our soldiers jobs on the frontline so they could come home and be with their families. After serving four yrs they could become citizens. I would hope they would learn real quick after seeing Jaun with his legs and arms 50 yds from the rest of his body, that the price of freedom and Constitutional Rights that they feel so intitled to are NOT FREE. I wonder how long the line would be at the recruiting office? Out of the 18 or so million here my gut feeling tells me the lines would be very short if at all.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why serve for four years and go that route, when you can park your fat ass in a chair inside of a house that the Catholic church is paying rent on? (All other churches where applicable.)

I always thought of this as a joke, because an illegal knows what his options are before ever setting foot in this country. They are like electricity. They seek the path of least resistance. Obviously, if Juan has a choice between serving for four years on the front line, or sitting in a chair drinking a cold beer, the choice is easy to make.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Why serve for four years and go that route, when you can park your fat ass in a chair inside of a house that the Catholic church is paying rent on? (All other churches where applicable.)


and tax free to boot......we have an org here called "Catholic Charities" and it goes down for the most part very much how you describe. In a nutshell they're an accomplice to the criminal fraud with no risk of prosecution.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Arizona immigration law: Key parts halted by judge


----------



## Bieling3

> Requiring Arizona law enforcement officials and agencies to determine the immigration status of every person who is arrested burdens lawfully-present aliens because their liberty will be restricted while their status is checked. Given the large number of people who are technically “arrested” but never booked into jail or perhaps even transported to a law enforcement facility, detention time for this category of arrestee will certainly be extended during an immigration status verification.



Hey that one over there is brown. Must be here illegally. Lets detain him and find out....
.
.
.

.
.

.
Couple hours latter. Ooops, my bad. Your free to go.

.
.

.

I hate to bring up the most notorious regime in "Paperz Bitte," category but come on this law was obviously raciest and I'm glad the Judge set things right.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Bieling3 said:


> Hey that one over there is brown. Must be here illegally. Lets detain him and find out....
> .
> .
> .
> 
> .
> .
> 
> .
> Couple hours latter. Ooops, my bad. Your free to go.
> 
> .
> .
> 
> .
> 
> I hate to bring up the most notorious regime in "Paperz Bitte," category but come on this law was obviously raciest and I'm glad the Judge set things right.




This law is not racist. It doesnt care what color you are or where you come from. Only if you are here illegally. It really is sad that people are brain washed into believing this is about race. And sad that you are one of them.


----------



## Bieling3

The quote is directly from the ruling and reinforces my point. I'm a military vet of over ten years and I don't need anyone telling me I'm brainwashed. It is what it is and it's plain for everyone to see.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Bieling3 said:


> The quote is directly from the ruling and reinforces my point. I'm a military vet of over ten years and I don't need anyone telling me I'm brainwashed. It is what it is and it's plain for everyone to see.



No it is not. This law would apply to white Canadians here illegally just as much as it would to tan hispanics. But the immigration problem is largely due to Mexicans disregarding our laws. This is another case of that "white guilt" that the left pushed in the 60's. Where they expected us to feel guilty for being white.


----------



## cptnkrunch

I'm to the point that I don't give a shit about the racist BS..profile away. If it wasn't for one particular race(latino the majority problem) that's here illegally abusing our system, frauding our gov, taking education money away from my kids,demanding rights they don't deserve, bankrupting our medical industry and taking jobs away from me that I have invested 32 yrs of hard work and labor into to provide a mediocre life at best to support my family. Then call me a flippn racist. This bleeding heart crap is exactly that...crap. I would gladly carry papers if it meant putting food on my table again.
.


> It is what it is and it's plain for everyone to see.[


You're right it is what it is ....BS (that it's not enforced)...and only seems plain to see from the one's that have secure jobs and pensions. Something I have neither of unfortunately, I live check to check like a lot of people in this country. If you don't want to be racially profiled then tell the rest of your country to stop engaging in their criminal activities ie; criminal entry in the country and filling false documentations to fraud the gov and the citizens of America. What their doing is ILLEGAL for Christ sakes. You either condone it or do something about it. I don't hear the Asian population crying racial profiling......why...because they're not the #%$&* problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly my friend. You either tolerate it (and then what does that make you? A loving citizen?), or you do something about it. I choose to do something about it. 

The Fed's are going to drag this out as long as they can. I already knew this. The only thing that worries me is if the Supreme Court Justices will be fair when making a ruling. Can the President influence the judges? Well I hope not this President. He's going to be a one termer anyway. 

I would love to see them put this up on the November ballots. That would be great. What if they got an overwhelming percentage of people backing the AZ law?

I also wonder what kind of an American it is that doesn't want to do anything about this problem? What exactly does this prove? "If I ignore it, it will take care of itself?" No, not hardly. Wink and 1,000 more just crossed the border.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> I'm to the point that I don't give a shit about the racist BS..profile away. If it wasn't for one particular race(latino the majority problem) that's here illegally abusing our system, frauding our gov, taking education money away from my kids,demanding rights they don't deserve, bankrupting our medical industry and taking jobs away from me that I have invested 32 yrs of hard work and labor into to provide a mediocre life at best to support my family. Then call me a flippn racist. This bleeding heart crap is exactly that...crap. I would gladly carry papers if it meant putting food on my table again.
> .
> You're right it is what it is ....BS (that it's not enforced)...and only seems plain to see from the one's that have secure jobs and pensions. Something I have neither of unfortunately, I live check to check like a lot of people in this country. If you don't want to be racially profiled then tell the rest of your country to stop engaging in their criminal activities ie; criminal entry in the country and filling false documentations to fraud the gov and the citizens of America. What their doing is ILLEGAL for Christ sakes. You either condone it or do something about it. I don't hear the Asian population crying racial profiling......why...because they're not the #%$&* problem.



The following is what pisses me off. Our fed govt has allowed this problem to happen. A state decides to do the job that we pay the fed govt to do. That state does the job and the fed sues. And for now they have won. All the while I continue to pay my taxes to a govt that refuses to do its job. All those elected have taken an oath to uphold and protect this country and its CITIZENS! They have failed do to so and you, me and others must still obey the law and pay the bill.


----------



## Bieling3

The immigration problem is due to drug prohibition and free trade (as opposed to fair trade) laws. I lived in El Paso for more than a couple of years (Ft. Bliss, 108th BDE) and that jive about, "the immigration problem is largely due to Mexicans disregarding our laws" has been statistically fact checked to death. That and every other stereotype and bit of hysteria in almost every post to this thread. DEBUNKED.

Here's a good example, my wife's Aunt and Uncle are English and Italian born respectively. They came over in the early 60's and didn't become citizens until after the 2000 elections so they could vote for their first time in 2004. Nobody ever harassed them for identification in all the years they lived here, and it not just because New York state doesn't follow laws akin to German occupied France. It's because they're white and nobody cared.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Haven't you guys realized yet that the things you vote for under this regime don't mean squat?!?!?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Bieling3 said:


> The immigration problem is due to drug prohibition and free trade (as opposed to fair trade)



Free or fair....nowhere did it lift the immigration laws that should be enforced in the first place


----------



## TwinACStacks

You Guys don't pay me to think.

I'm just here because I'm beautiful.

 TWIN


----------



## Bieling3

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Free or fair....nowhere did it lift the immigration laws that should be enforced in the first place



...and no part of the law which was struck down did that. The law added new requirements across the board. The part the courts let stand were in reality the only reasonable provisions:



> A.R.S. § 13-2929: creating a separate crime for a person in violation of a criminal offense to transport or harbor an unlawfully present alien or encourage or induce an unlawfully present alien to come to or live in Arizona
> 
> and
> 
> A.R.S. § 28-3511: amending the provisions for the removal or impoundment of a vehicle to permit impoundment of vehicles used in the transporting or harboring of unlawfully present aliens



The real result of the other provisions, had they been allowed to stand, would have been an overburdening of the system:



> . . . an increase in the number of requests for determinations of immigration status, such as is likely to result from the mandatory requirement that Arizona law enforcement officials and agencies check the immigration status of any person who is arrested, will divert resources from the federal government’s other responsibilities and priorities.



Not only would you have been depriving legal immigrants and natural citizens of their liberty while you performed the proscribed mandatory checks, you would have overburdened the very system used to verify immigration status... compounding that wait and hampering actual enforcement of the law. 

How many times and for how long would you have to be thrown in a cell while waiting for your status to be verified before you get the point?

Papers pleaze.


----------



## cptnkrunch

QUOTE]The immigration problem is due to drug prohibition and free trade (as opposed to fair trade) laws. I lived in El Paso for more than a couple of years (Ft. Bliss, 108th BDE) and that jive about, "the immigration problem is largely due to Mexicans disregarding our laws" has been statistically fact checked to death. That and every other stereotype and bit of hysteria in almost every post to this thread. DEBUNKED.[/QUOTE]
Wow what a story full of holes and ignorant BS it's full of it's own myths and untruths. Your really going to define your stance on immigration from an article written a 1/2 decade ago. For one they only interviewed a whopping 181 immigrants(and only 70% illegal=111 people) from one region out of a guesstimated 18 mil illegals here. Do yourself a favor and read up on some recent polls and statistics ...they're a huge burden on our system, cost us billions and they know very well how to manipulate and fraud our system. To say illegals get no assistance is a joke I see it happen daily. ONE hospital in Texas delivers 44 babies a day from illegals and YOU and I pay the bill dude. Maybe we can send the rest of the fraudulent immigrants bills to your home and you can pay for them also, then tells us how you feel about your bleeding heart fund. Or you can just sit there with your monthly pension and tell us how wrong we are for trying to stick up for our country and how they have their rights to be here. I have absolutely no patience or tollerance for ignorant people anymore...give your country away it's the new American dream. Beiling why don't you go try and make it in construction in a predominately hispanic region and then come back and report to us and tell us how you feel. Your just another armchair QB. Gawd this shit pisses me off ..sorry for the rant guys..but some JUST DON'T GET IT and are usually the ones with little to nothing to lose. I can guarantee that my family (some that are still alive) who have fought in damn near every war America has ever fought in: Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and Iraq would be totally disgusted by what some have allowed America to become. Should we fly a Mexican flag next time we go to war because they obviously can't stand up for their own flippn country nor do they want to. Give me for free is about all I see and they're not even willing to fight for the rights they demand.


----------



## MonstersOfTheMidway

bieling3 said:


> hey that one over there is brown. Must be here illegally. Lets detain him and find out...
> Couple hours latter. Ooops, my bad. Your free to go.
> I hate to bring up the most notorious regime in "paperz bitte," category but come on this law was obviously raciest and i'm glad the judge set things right.


+1



bieling3 said:


> the quote is directly from the ruling and reinforces my point. I'm a military vet of over ten years and i don't need anyone telling me i'm brainwashed. It is what it is and it's plain for everyone to see.


+1


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great points Krunch. It's chilling that they are only guessing how many are here. I think the number is much higher. Originally it was 11 million and then as this progressed the number has risen. I mean what if there are 25 million here? They are like rats in an old house. How are you going to get rid of them all?

It's like I said a while back. It's like letting your dirty dishes go. After a while you think about them and you know they are there, but you just don't want to do anything. After 3 months, you are overwhelmed, your kitchen looks like hell and you don't feel very good. 

We knew there was a problem a long time ago, especially if you lived in a border state, but like the dishes, nothing got done and the kitchen became a mess. I lost $10,000 on my house. If I had sold it in 2001, I would have gotten 130K for it, but in 2002, the infestation came into my neighborhood and I was only able to get 120K for the house. How are you supposed to react when your black real estate agent is telling you the illegal Hispanic population in the neighborhood is undesirable and it is driving the price of a house down? Now what do you think my neighborhood looks like eight years later? It is garbage. Filthy. Completely run down. This is what illegals contribute to our American society. They are like a blight of some sort. Locust eating everything in sight and leaving behind a trail of desolation.

Illegal drugs, illegals with illegal guns. Houses full of 40 people living next to your family. Drive by shootings. Elevated gang activity. These are just some of the horrific effects that these illegals have on any given community.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Ya know I feel like I may owe this forum an apoligize for maybe letting my true feelings run about on this forum. I'm not trying to insult anyone on this forum and I'm not the most pollitical correct person in the world. But I will stant up for what I believe is right or wrong and will fight to the death of it win or lose... and if I piss some people off a long the way it's not intentional but it is something our fore fathers fought and gave us "Freedom of speach" and I have every right to express it or the lack of, as others have on this forum,well until Adwex shuts me down(sorry Adwex,sending x-mas card). It really starts to feel like the Americans freedoms we have fought for all these yrs seem be more and more on a daily basis for not. 1,000s and 1,000s have died for this country and their believes but some people don't seem to have a problem giving it away. I know if my Dad or Grand-pa was still around they would have no problem kicking some sense(at any age) into any of you yellow bellies that want to take away all the efforts and risk of life they put out for your ass. No Gratification for whats been sacrificed for your our ass. 


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by bieling3
> hey that one over there is brown. Must be here illegally. Lets detain him and find out...
> Couple hours latter. Ooops, my bad. Your free to go.
> I hate to bring up the most notorious regime in "paperz bitte," category but come on this law was obviously raciest and i'm glad the judge set things right.



well the you shouldn't have much of a problen with them taking over your job and raping your duaghter or wife. don't come crying to me when it happens. Three rapes here by illegals in a fairley short period of time. and a few homoicides... gee if we only had more of the illegal mexican here

+1


Quote:
Originally Posted by bieling3 
the quote is directly from the ruling and reinforces my point. I'm a military vet of over ten years and i don't need anyone telling me i'm brainwashed. It is what it is and it's plain for everyone to see. 
and don't tell me after 10yrs in the service brainwashing isn't used in the military for better or worse, I know better.


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ue6wjPu6K8]YouTube - Illegal Immigrants Do Take Jobs That Americans Want[/ame]


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuwykPQz8LA&feature=fvw]YouTube - Illegal workers: Taking American jobs?[/ame]


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHMVgf8ymWA&feature=channel]YouTube - Take our jobs[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

FLICKOFLASH said:


> YouTube - Illegal Immigrants Do Take Jobs That Americans Want



This is the sad reality!


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA2kgUFrtmI&feature=related]YouTube - Real Americans RUSH to get employment after a local resort gets rid of ILLEGAL Aliens! Georgia[/ame]


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFb-6QuQiwQ&feature=related]YouTube - Illegal Aliens Are Taking The Jobs Americans Won't Do? ( Immigration / Boise / Bozeman / Pocatello )[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> Ya know I feel like I may owe this forum an apoligize for maybe letting my true feelings run about on this forum. I'm not trying to insult anyone on this forum and I'm not the most pollitical correct person in the world. But I will stant up for what I believe is right or wrong and will fight to the death of it win or lose... and if I piss some people off a long the way it's not intentional but it is something our fore fathers fought and gave us "Freedom of speach" and I have every right to express it or the lack of, as others have on this forum,well until Adwex shuts me down(sorry Adwex,sending x-mas card). It really starts to feel like the Americans freedoms we have fought for all these yrs seem be more and more on a daily basis for not. 1,000s and 1,000s have died for this country and their believes but some people don't seem to have a problem giving it away. I know if my Dad or Grand-pa was still around they would have no problem kicking some sense(at any age) into any of you yellow bellies that want to take away all the efforts and risk of life they put out for your ass. No Gratification for whats been sacrificed for your our ass.
> 
> 
> Like I said at the start, lets try and keep this cool. This is a real hot button issue. Emotions run deep on this. I am in construction and I know of a lot of illegals. I have been in a car accident with an illegal. Through a translator he gave me all his "info". Turns out he wasnt insured and I had to cover the cost of the repairs to my car in an accident that wasnt my fault. And please spare me the arguement that citizens do the same thing. I know some do. But they are citizens and we cant deport them. Those that are here illegally raise the chances of this happening. Hit and runs by illegals happen a lot here in Phx.
> I have no problem with a persons skin color. I dont care if you are from another country. As long as you are here legally.


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpRgO4mLqVA&feature=related]YouTube - Veteran Cuts Down Mexican Flag!![/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XTYiiGkECg&feature=related]YouTube - American Flag Flying Rules[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Something needs to be done before this turns violent.


----------



## 4STICKS

So let's see....... The Fed gov't looks the other way with regards to sancuary cities where the local law enforcement is INSTRUCTED to ignore federal law.... BUT........ they sue a state that is just trying to enforce what should be (and pretty much is) federal law.

Hmmmmmmmmm.......... Curious!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

nothing illegal about a militia.....it's your constitutional right


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm eager to join. I have all the prerequisites covered and I have my own "tools."


----------



## longfxukxnhair

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm eager to join. I have all the prerequisites covered and I have my own "tools."



Bring that oven. It will provide good cover and make a great meal


----------



## 4STICKS

Buggs.Crosby said:


> nothing illegal about a militia.....it's your constitutional right



Constitution??????? We don't need no stinking constitution!!!!!!!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

4STICKS said:


> Constitution??????? We don't need no stinking constitution!!!!!!!



Its more like "we dont have no constitution anymore".


----------



## 4STICKS

longfxukxnhair said:


> Its more like "we dont have no constitution anymore".



Now,now.....sure we do. The current regime wipes thier ass with it every day.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

4STICKS said:


> Now,now.....sure we do. The current regime wipes thier ass with it every day.



+100000

What little of it is left from the last admin


----------



## 4STICKS

longfxukxnhair said:


> +100000
> 
> What little of it is left from the last admin



True dat!!


----------



## tonefreak

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JDRwsjM29I[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

longfxukxnhair said:


> Bring that oven. It will provide good cover and make a great meal



If I had to cook for the troops, I would be glad to do it.

As tough as that stove is, an AK47 with armor piercing rounds would probably do it in except for that 1/2 metal plate in the bottom.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> I'm eager to join. I have all the prerequisites covered and I have my own "tools."





> nothing illegal about a militia.....it's your constitutional right


Count me in too...I have plenty of "tools" and cases and cases of many flavors.. that will never be sold.... I don't care what bill needs paying. Have odd feeling I may need them someday. I was smack dab in the middle and I do mean the middle of the LA riots for two 1/2 days..watched at least a 1/2 dozen buildings burn on the one street we were on, never seen TV's and Fridges moved at such a high rate of speed...craziest shit I've ever seen..those that don't think it can happen here in the US may be in for a rude awakening someday.

QUOTE] Like I said at the start, lets try and keep this cool. This is a real hot button issue. Emotions run deep on this. I am in construction and I know of a lot of illegals. I have been in a car accident with an illegal. Through a translator he gave me all his "info". Turns out he wasnt insured and I had to cover the cost of the repairs to my car in an accident that wasnt my fault. And please spare me the arguement that citizens do the same thing. I know some do.[[/QUOTE]
Sorry LFH, I'll cool down, it has been a good thread discussion and I commend Adwex for letting us air out some things from both sides. My wife, ex employ and myself have all been in accidents involving illegals (their fault) totaled my employees truck and guess who paid for them? Not them, cop basicaly told us we were SOL. Having grown up in some of the most problmatic immigration cities in the country LA, Phoenix and Denver probably hasn't helped my tolerance level much. You do get tired of watching it day after day and paying for it on top of it. The real pisser that gets me is when my kids tell me how rude many of them are at school. That one makes me want to slap the parents. Ok I chill now.


----------



## Bieling3

When my grandfather came to this country after WWI he couldn't speak English when he first entered High School. They threw stones at him walking home from school and called him a kraut. He graduated valedictorian. No one would hire him. Finally the only work he could find was in an all German shop where he learned tool making. 



> Myth: TODAY'S IMMIGRANTS ARE DIFFERENT THAN THOSE 100 YEARS AGO
> 
> FACT: The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about todays immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow migrs. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that todays immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.
> 
> (Source: Census Data: http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kprof00-us.pdf,http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/censr-4.pdf )



When I was in the Army every time I crawled under a HMMWV and looked up to see that transfer case stamped NEW PROCESS GEAR I remembered the story my grandfather told me of the many times that Government representatives would come to his machine shop to have him work on prototypes for the transfer case's in the Willys MB and how he was there at the start of New Process Gear. Gave me a little push to do my time and get out, and go on to graduate college.

Now I appreciate everyone here at this forum's right to speak their mind. And I'll exercise that same right I fought for and voice my opinion too. I promise not to hold any grudges. I'll turn right around and contribute what I can to a thread discussing tone and my experiences along with the rest of you, and certainly listen to what the rest of you have to say because the majority of you have many more years of experience than I do when it comes to amps and guitars.



> Myth #1: Undocumented immigrants come to the United States to get welfare.
> 
> Undocumented men come to the United States almost exclusively to work. In 2003, over 90 percent of undocumented men worked—a rate higher than that for U.S. citizens or legal immigrants (Passel, Capps, and Fix 2004). Undocumented men are younger, less likely to be in school, and less likely to be retired than other men (Capps et al. 2003). Moreover, undocumented immigrants are ineligible for welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, and most other public benefits (Fix, Zimmermann, and Passel 2001).
> 
> Myth #2: Undocumented immigrants all crossed the Mexican border.
> 
> Between 60 and 75 percent of the more than 10 million undocumented immigrants entered illegally and without inspection—mostly across the Mexican border. The other 25 to 40 percent entered legally and subsequently overstayed visas or otherwise violated the terms of their admission (Passel 2005).
> 
> Myth #3: Undocumented immigrants are all single men.
> 
> Over 40 percent of undocumented adults are women, and the majority (54 percent) of undocumented men live in married couples or other families (Passel 2005). Fewer than half of undocumented men are single and unattached.
> 
> Myth #4: Most children of the undocumented are unauthorized.
> 
> In fact, two-thirds of all children with undocumented parents (about 3 million) are U.S.-born citizens who live in mixed-status families.
> 
> Myth #5: A large share of schoolchildren are undocumented.
> 
> Nationally in 2000, only 1.5 percent of elementary schoolchildren (enrolled in kindergarten through 5th grade) and 3 percent of secondary children (grades 6-12) were undocumented. Slightly higher shares—5 percent in elementary and 4 percent in secondary schools—had undocumented parents.
> 
> Myth #6: Undocumented immigrants do not pay taxes.
> 
> Undocumented immigrants pay the same real estate taxes—whether they own homes or taxes are passed through to rents—and the same sales and other consumption taxes as everyone else. The majority of state and local costs of schooling and other services are funded by these taxes. Additionally, the U.S. Social Security Administration has estimated that three quarters of undocumented immigrants pay payroll taxes, and that they contribute $6-7 billion in Social Security funds that they will be unable to claim (Porter 2005).
> 
> Undocumented Immigrants: Myths and Reality



Call me a bleeding heart, whatever, no amount of anecdotal evidence is going to convince me (just as no amount of facts and statistics will convince some) that people coming to this country from Mexico and points south are anything but just that, people. Human beings. Do we have a problem with the process in which people immigrate to this country? Yes. Do we need reform? Yes. Regardless I refuse to fall for the xenophobic demagoguery of people like Tom Tancredo, Rush Limbaugh, Senator John McCain, and Governor Jan Brewer:



> Two months ago, the Arizona Republic published an exhaustive report that found that, according to statistics from the FBI and Arizona police agencies, crime in Arizona border towns has been "essentially flat for the past decade." For example, "In 2000, there were 23 rapes, robberies and murders in Nogales, Ariz. Last year, despite nearly a decade of population growth, there were 19 such crimes." The Pima County sheriff reported that "the border has never been more secure."
> 
> FBI statistics show violent crime rates in all of the border states are lower than they were a decade ago -- yet Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) reports that the violence is "the worst I have ever seen." President Obama justifiably asserted last week that "the southern border is more secure today than any time in the past 20 years," yet Rush Limbaugh judged the president to be "fit for the psycho ward" on the basis of that remark.



...and neither should you. It's politics plain and simple and if you with hate in your heart fall for this kind thing I feel sorry for you and the possibility that Merriam Webster may have to put your picture (or avatar, or whatever) in the dictionary next to the definition of the word tool.


----------



## tonefreak

Bieling3 said:


> When my grandfather came to this country after WWI he couldn't speak English when he first entered High School. He graduated valedictorian. No one would hire him. Finally the only work he could find was in an all German shop where he learned tool making.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was in the Army every time I crawled under a HMMWV and looked up to see that transfer case stamped NEW PROCESS GEAR I remembered the story my grandfather told me of the many times that Government representatives would come to his machine shop to have him work on prototypes for the transfer case's in the Willys MB and how he was there at the start of New Process Gear. Gave me a little push to do my time and get out, and go on to graduate college.
> 
> Now I appreciate everyone here at this forum's right to speak their mind. And I'll exercise that same right I fought for and voice my opinion too. I promise not to hold any grudges. I'll turn right around and contribute what I can to a thread discussing tone and my experiences along with the rest of you, and certainly listen to what the rest of you have to say because the majority of you have many more years of experience than I do when it comes to amps and guitars.
> 
> 
> 
> Call me a bleeding heart, whatever, no amount of anecdotal evidence is going to convince me (just as no amount of facts and statistics will convince some) that people coming to this country from Mexico and points south are anything but just that, people. Human beings. Do we have a problem with the process in which people immigrate to this country? Yes. Do we need reform? Yes. Regardless I refuse to fall for the xenophobic demagoguery of people like Tom Tancredo, Rush Limbaugh, Senator John McCain, and Governor Jan Brewer:
> 
> 
> 
> ...and neither should you. It's politics plain and simple and if you with hate in your heart fall for this kind thing I feel sorry for you and the possibility that Merriam Webster may have to put your picture (or avatar, or whatever) in the dictionary next to the definition of the word tool.





I aint readin through all the crap in here, and I did read like. the first half of your post Beiling. thanks for your Service. what rank were you when you got out?

the only problem I have with illegal immigrants, is this, their taking the easy route (I like easy routes most of the time). we have a system in place for people to immegrate legally, and I think at one time (and maybe it still does), it required you to take some classes, and to learn a bit of english. Is it really that hard to become a naturallized citizen? I mean then you wouldn't be chased by the cops because your illegal, you could get all the benefits of a normal citizen, and you could help the rest of us normal citizens pay taxes! how fun is that!

just use the system. if the system has a problem, lets get it fixed so it's more inviting. 


Welfare. now there's a system that needs some changing. I'll sit back in my lazy boy and let someone else fix it.

OH WAIT THAT'S THE STEREOTYPICAL AMERICAN ATTITUDE!!! that's not the way to get things done. this is a democratic republic. there are ways to change things. lets change what needs changing, fix what needs fixing, shoot what needs shooting, and drink what needs drinking.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Impacts of Illegal Immigration: Crime Summary

Beiling3, You seem to love myths and stats...well... here's some homework for you , some probably embeleshed, some not and many other stats on the net you can look at if you don't like what you find. How many deaths, rapes and criminal activities does it take to get your attention? My daughter is a good friends of ONE of the local girls raped here by an illegal and it has fucked her up for the rest of her life... how many more will it take to wake people like you up? Maybe you can sit with her and listen to her story for awhile and realize the impact this POS illegal has made in her life....I've heard the story firsthand from her Dad and brother, to say it was very hard to listen to is a fuk'n understatement. How many more like her will it take for you to wake the fuk up? Alot of these kids never make it back home. Yes, there's plenty of American White trash out there too but I don't think we need any help in this department do you? Do the math of the amount of illegals that are here and do the math of incarcerated illegals( ones that are actualy caught) if you have kids do you want them to be next? I don't think so and I guarantee your bleeding heart will not have the same view it does now. You just don't get it? And once more for the record I get zero, zilch, nada from my gov, no medicaid, no unemployment and you want to tell me I need to be paying for these looser fuks..you need your flippn head examined. Ban me from the forum I really don't give a shit at this point but your views B3 are as fucked as they come and I hope you get everything you wish for but don't forget to Eat it and Smile.


----------



## Bieling3

That's alright man, I didn't expect much more.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> When my grandfather came to this country after WWI he couldn't speak English when he first entered High School. They threw stones at him walking home from school and called him a kraut. He graduated valedictorian. No one would hire him. Finally the only work he could find was in an all German shop where he learned tool making.



Although a lot of people might say what a shame, I look at it and take into account the time this occurred. Why wouldn't American's hate Germans? They started one of the biggest wars of all time and they were brutal. A few years later, they started another war. American's were very leery of the Japanese as well. If you remember, after Pearl Harbor, the Japanese were rounded up.

These are two different thing that you are trying to compare together. Sorry, it's just not working for me.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Bieling3 said:


> When my grandfather came to this country after WWI he couldn't speak English when he first entered High School.



just one question?....did he come here legally and do what i took to become a citizen?......this is not the same as what you are refering to today.....this discussion is about "ILLEGAL ALIENS"


take note the amount of illegals left after the law was announced....they chose to leave instead of doing what it takes to become legal....no sympathy here!


----------



## longfxukxnhair

This is what happens when you put a liberal progressive in power. What bothers me is there were enough people that fell for Obamas bull shit. Enough to put him in power. And I am not saying McCain was the right choice. Ron Paul!

Memo floats immigration reforms without congressional action


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

No Amnesty what so ever....every Fucking illegal knew what they were doing and chose to do it anyway.....Go Sheriff Jo Go!


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

here is a good one.....this is to help people come here legally.......take note of the women that wanted a travel visa....yet she openly admits she has no money.....so what kind of vacation was she planning?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100730/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_us_consulate


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like Sheriff Joe. Even when I spent the night in his downtown facility.

(All charges were dropped. Ex-wife issue.)


----------



## luekemeyer

Two funny clips from the CONEHEADS!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6ANOBnwpSA]YouTube - the attitude we now need to say to our job exports[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaaWd1G8M9A]YouTube - Solution to Illegal Immigration via The Coneheads[/ame]


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

longfxukxnhair said:


> This is what happens when you put a liberal progressive in power



Bush would have done the same thing....remember he wanted to create an amnesty policy that was rejected

the major problem is that not since Nixon did we have a president that actually listened to the people.....not saying he or others before did what the people wanted in every case but at least they listened......we as Americans have let this happen


----------



## MartyStrat54

This matter just happens to be on a front burner. There are a lot of other policies that are in need of urgent addressing. However, now that Obama knows he won't be re-elected, he isn't going to put his name on any risky bills or policies.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Bush would have done the same thing....remember he wanted to create an amnesty policy that was rejected
> 
> the major problem is that not since Nixon did we have a president that actually listened to the people.....not saying he or others before did what the people wanted in every case but at least they listened......we as Americans have let this happen



The important thing to remember is Bush tried and failed. Obama is trying to back door this. And Obama is currently the president.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Have you noticed how Obama looks so uncomfortable on live TV? His cockiness has "left the building." I guess he didn't realize there was more to being the President besides winning. I think he realizes it now.


----------



## IbanezMark

The Bacon Tree
Two Mexicans are stuck in the desert after crossing into the United States , wandering aimlessly and starving. They are about to just lie down and wait for death, when all of a sudden Luis says.........

"Hey Pepe, do you smell what I smell. Ees bacon, I theenk."

"Si, Luis, eet sure smells like bacon. "

With renewed hope they struggle up the next sand dune, & there, in the distance, is a tree loaded with bacon.

There's raw bacon, there's fried bacon, back bacon, double smoked bacon ... every imaginable kind of cured pork.

"Pepe, Pepe, we ees saved. Ees a bacon tree."

"Luis, maybe ees a meerage? We ees in the desert don't forget."

"Pepe, since when deed you ever hear of a meerage that smell like bacon...ees no meerage, ees a bacon tree."

And with that, Luis staggers towards the tree. He gets to within 5 metres, Pepe crawling close behind, when suddenly a machine gun opens up, and Luis drops like a wet sock. Mortally wounded, he warns Pepe with his dying breath,

"Pepe... go back man, you was right, ees not a bacon tree!"

"Luis, Luis mi amigo... what ees it? "

"Pepe.. ees not a bacon tree. Ees


Ees


Ees


Ees



Ees a ham bush...."


----------



## MM54

IbanezMark said:


> The Bacon Tree
> Two Mexicans are stuck in the desert after crossing into the United States , wandering aimlessly and starving. They are about to just lie down and wait for death, when all of a sudden Luis says.........
> 
> "Hey Pepe, do you smell what I smell. Ees bacon, I theenk."
> 
> "Si, Luis, eet sure smells like bacon. "
> 
> With renewed hope they struggle up the next sand dune, & there, in the distance, is a tree loaded with bacon.
> 
> There's raw bacon, there's fried bacon, back bacon, double smoked bacon ... every imaginable kind of cured pork.
> 
> "Pepe, Pepe, we ees saved. Ees a bacon tree."
> 
> "Luis, maybe ees a meerage? We ees in the desert don't forget."
> 
> "Pepe, since when deed you ever hear of a meerage that smell like bacon...ees no meerage, ees a bacon tree."
> 
> And with that, Luis staggers towards the tree. He gets to within 5 metres, Pepe crawling close behind, when suddenly a machine gun opens up, and Luis drops like a wet sock. Mortally wounded, he warns Pepe with his dying breath,
> 
> "Pepe... go back man, you was right, ees not a bacon tree!"
> 
> "Luis, Luis mi amigo... what ees it? "
> 
> "Pepe.. ees not a bacon tree. Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> 
> Ees a ham bush...."


----------



## IbanezMark

it was getting a little too serious in here


----------



## tonefreak

IbanezMark said:


> The Bacon Tree
> Two Mexicans are stuck in the desert after crossing into the United States , wandering aimlessly and starving. They are about to just lie down and wait for death, when all of a sudden Luis says.........
> 
> "Hey Pepe, do you smell what I smell. Ees bacon, I theenk."
> 
> "Si, Luis, eet sure smells like bacon. "
> 
> With renewed hope they struggle up the next sand dune, & there, in the distance, is a tree loaded with bacon.
> 
> There's raw bacon, there's fried bacon, back bacon, double smoked bacon ... every imaginable kind of cured pork.
> 
> "Pepe, Pepe, we ees saved. Ees a bacon tree."
> 
> "Luis, maybe ees a meerage? We ees in the desert don't forget."
> 
> "Pepe, since when deed you ever hear of a meerage that smell like bacon...ees no meerage, ees a bacon tree."
> 
> And with that, Luis staggers towards the tree. He gets to within 5 metres, Pepe crawling close behind, when suddenly a machine gun opens up, and Luis drops like a wet sock. Mortally wounded, he warns Pepe with his dying breath,
> 
> "Pepe... go back man, you was right, ees not a bacon tree!"
> 
> "Luis, Luis mi amigo... what ees it? "
> 
> "Pepe.. ees not a bacon tree. Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> Ees
> 
> 
> 
> Ees a ham bush...."




LOL!  that's awesome.


----------



## tonefreak

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0sYnro_3Rc]YouTube - ‪Josh Thompson - Way Out Here (Alternate Version)‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## Purgasound

I know I'm a little late to the party but...
Immigration to what country? The U.S.A. died a couple of years ago... You didn't hear?

Born July, 4th 1776
Died November 4th 2008
SUICIDE


----------



## longfxukxnhair

American Viking said:


> I know I'm a little late to the party but...
> Immigration to what country? The U.S.A. died a couple of years ago... You didn't hear?
> 
> Born July, 4th 1776
> Died November 4th 2008
> SUICIDE



Thats about right. She has been dying since 1913


----------



## RazorDave

I geusss meee nooo goo tuuu awizona





ps. Im hispanic


----------



## plankbadger

I've got a straw poll. From a historical perspective how many peoples surname originates from the country in which they live?
Mine is from Ireland and I live in the United Kingdom.


----------



## cptnkrunch

plankbadger said:


> I've got a straw poll. From a historical perspective how many peoples surname originates from the country in which they live?
> Mine is from Ireland and I live in the United Kingdom.


 I'm not sure where you're wanting to go with this but I have a good idea..I'm a mutt and most American's are as America is a very young country compared to most other countries. Our surname originated in Ireland, Scotland, England and Germany but my Great Grandmother was full blood Choctaw, lost on the "Trail of Tears" found and raised by white-man. My blood was on this soil long before the Spaniard's or anyone else's that explored or stepped foot on what's now called America. And the Choctaw ancestry goes back 4-8K yrs ago. Is that enough qualification for me to be in this country Plank?




> ps. Im hispanic


 Razordave,
So is my daughter and I have absolutely nothing against any race or color cause we're all human beings but I do have issues with screwed up morals and people to lazy to fix their own problems. I do get what you're saying.


----------



## bloosman1

My last name is German, I am 2nd generation American. My grandparents immigrated (Legally) from Germany.
---J---


----------



## plankbadger

cptnkrunch said:


> I'm not sure where you're wanting to go with this but I have a good idea..I'm a mutt and most American's are as America is a very young country compared to most other countries. Our surname originated in Ireland, Scotland, England and Germany but my Great Grandmother was full blood Choctaw, lost on the "Trail of Tears" found and raised by white-man. My blood was on this soil long before the Spaniard's or anyone else's that explored or stepped foot on what's now called America. And the Choctaw ancestry goes back 4-8K yrs ago. Is that enough qualification for me to be in this country Plank?



Partially where I'm going. What I'm suggesting is that most people are not at all or
not entirely from the place they live or were born. The creation of artificial barriers now 
seems a bit hypocritical. If the native american's had said - I'm afraid we are full - just
get back in your boats, then you wouldn't be here as you are not 100% native american, Similarly if the English turned the Irish back during the potato famine I wouldn't be here.
There are many other examples.
Perhaps there's a case to say that 100% native americans should decide about the
Mexican immigrant issue. ( I realise this comment could annoy people but its more a discussion point 
to see this thing from a historical and logical perspective. How annoyed can I be about immigrants if 
my ancestors were immigrants. )


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Partially where I'm going. What I'm suggesting is that most people are not at all or
> not entirely from the place they live or were born. The creation of artificial barriers now
> seems a bit hypocritical. If the native american's had said - I'm afraid we are full - just
> get back in your boats, then you wouldn't be here as you are not 100% native american, Similarly if the English turned the Irish back during the potato famine I wouldn't be here.
> There are many other examples.
> Perhaps there's a case to say that 100% native americans should decide about the
> Mexican immigrant issue. ( I realise this comment could annoy people but its more a discussion point
> to see this thing from a historical and logical perspective. How annoyed can I be about immigrants if
> my ancestors were immigrants. )


Plank,
I really don't want to get into it with you "again" but open your eyes dude. You're comparing apples to oranges. The immigrants that came over here way back didn't get off the boat asking for handouts, demanding rights they haven't fought for, they worked their ass's off to become a part of this country, they didn't lay around spitting out babies and then asking the English to support their families and kids. I DO NOT blame the illegals for wanting a better life but if you want a better life and change for the better then stand up, have some balls and fight for what you want....you don't go to another country that has already done all the footwork made all the sacrifices and suffered the hardships to become the success that they are and when you get there you abuse, fraud, steal, take advantage of a system you had nothing to do with as far as the building of the foundation that we American's have done. If they don't like their situation then flipp'n do the work and change it, don't be a coward and walk away from something you're not willing to put the effort into changing and go take advantage of people that have put in the effort to make a change for the better. It's wrong and it's cowardly period. 
IMO N America committed one of the worst crimes ever to humanity by allowing slavery in N America but you know what we all didn't agree with it and America has always fought for civil liberties and freedom, we did something about it and righted a wrong hence the Civil War. My immigrant ancestors who were also a part of the Irish potato famine my relatives, fought in the Civil War they also fought in WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea and the Gulf War. My point is we're not heartless and thoughtless people and had the balls to change things we felt were wrong. I can't say the same about the illegals coming here now cause most of them don't give a flying fuck about this country, they just want the free handouts. I have an idea, if illegals are forced out of the US, lets put them on a boat send them to the UK and you can be the official greeter and let your country support them for awhile I hope you have a thick wallet, plenty of diaper's, about 18 million extra jobs and can learn to press 1 for English. Is this starting to make any sense to you Plank? The immigrant ethics, morals and mentality now is not the same as it was 100's yrs ago. I apologize for another long winded rant guys..next time I'll just get the chalkboard.


----------



## Bieling3

cptnkrunch said:


> . . . open your eyes dude.



You should take a bit of your own advise. These are exactly these same criticisms that have been used against every previous wave of immigrants since the beginning of this country on. May I suggest you add "Gangs of New York" to your netflix cue. Or reading up on the French Canadian Emigration to the United States circa 1840-1930. Or stop being a tool of politicians:



> The GOP Crackup
> Sunday, August 15th, 2010
> Between the Manhattan mosque, “terror babies,” Obama’s birth certificate, repealing part of the 14th Amendment, and whatever fake controversy Andrew Breitbart has dreamed up lately, the GOP and its loyal partisans have really lost their collective shit. I keep thinking the tone of the public discourse can’t get any lower. And then they prove me wrong. The sad thing is, on the issues that actually matter America is in dire need of a competent opposition party right now. But actually coming up with new ideas, as opposed to demagoguing to the base (a word that works in two ways here), well, it’s hard. It requires serious thinking from serious people. When members of the party like Rep. Paul Ryan actually do put forth serious policy proposals that address real issues, party leaders run like hell. Because a plan to eliminate the federal budget deficit in fifty years is too radical for them.
> 
> Instead, we get this….



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQVfQCpYocQ]YouTube - Rep. Louie Gohmert Goes Berserk On Anderson Cooper!!![/ame]


----------



## cptnkrunch

> You should take a bit of your own advise. These are exactly these same criticisms that have been used against every previous wave of immigrants since the beginning of this country on. May I suggest you add "Gangs of New York" to your netflix cue. Or reading up on the French Canadian Emigration to the United States circa 1840-1930. Or stop being a tool of politicians:


 My eyes are wide open..... as far as Gangs of New York seen it twice...Still apples to oranges.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Bieling3, 
I'm very curious are you for amnesty and illegal immigration and do you think it's OK that they criminally fraud, abuse and bankrupt our country?

meet your new neighbors.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex1AklPM-DI&feature=related]YouTube - American Immigrants Stomp American Flag[/ame]

me no understandee d ?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_ZnX9JRo5M&feature=related]YouTube - Mexicans --- "Anchors Aweigh" on US Soil[/ame]


----------



## Bieling3

cptnkrunch said:


> Bieling3,
> I'm very curious are you for amnesty and illegal immigration and do you think it's OK that they criminally fraud, abuse and bankrupt our country?



No, it's not ok when anyone commits fraud, waste, and abuse frittering away the tax payers dollars. That's why I am 100% against one of the largest wastes of tax payers dollars that also happens to be a factor in illegal immigration, The War on Drugs.

An even larger factor in illegal immigration is NAFTA. Via Common Dreams:



> NAFTA, by permitting heavily-subsidized US corn and other agri-business products to compete with small Mexican farmers, has driven the Mexican farmer off the land due to low-priced imports of US corn and other agricultural products. Some 2 million Mexicans have been forced out of agriculture, and many of those that remain are living in desperate poverty. These people are among those that cross the border to feed their families. (Meanwhile, corn-based tortilla prices climbed by 50%. No wonder many so Mexican peasants have called NAFTA their 'death warrant.'
> 
> NAFTA's service-sector rules allowed big firms like Wal-Mart to enter the Mexican market and, selling low-priced goods made by ultra-cheap labor in China, to displace locally-based shoe, toy, and candy firms. An estimated 28,000 small and medium-sized Mexican businesses have been eliminated.
> 
> Wages along the Mexican border have actually been driven down by about 25% since NAFTA, reported a Carnegie Endowment study. An over-supply of workers, combined with the crushing of union organizing drives as government policy, has resulted in sweatshop pay running sweatshops along the border where wages typically run 60 cents to $1 an hour.



These are the two main causes of illegal immigration from Mexico to the U.S., of course that has nothing to do with your chain e-mailesque claims about how much illegal immigrants bankrupt our country. It's time to stop being a reactionary and look at the root causes if you want this problem to be solved.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIzivCJ9pzU[/ame]


----------



## Micky

I still have to ask again:

What part of illegal don't people understand?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Micky said:


> I still have to ask again:
> 
> What part of illegal don't people understand?



The argument has been twisted (mainly by those on the far left) so much that they cant argue it on merit. Thats why they call it racism when it really is a matter of legal status for those who dont have citizenship in this country. Think back to the 60's when many on the far left who were taught to feel guilty for being white. There is much to read in this area.


----------



## Bieling3

What part of reactionary do you not understand? Drugs are illegal. Prostitution is illegal. Speeding is illegal. There are a lot of things that are illegal. You gonna to solve the problem or sit there and say, and really can you do it with a straight face, your real issue is that these people are breaking the law? 

Answer this smart guy, how much would it cost to round up every last "illegal" immigrant in this country and deport them versus how much of a supposed drain on our resources they are? I'll give you the answer, save you some googleing... It'd cost ten times the amount. AT least. It'd be more than half our budget deficit for the year. No where near the cost of illegal immigration to our society. Not to mention the negative impact in the loss of taxes and economic activity.

You gonna keep paying a witch doctor to treat the disease or find a cure?


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Bieling3 said:


> What part of reactionary do you not understand? Drugs are illegal. Prostitution is illegal. Speeding is illegal. There are a lot of things that are illegal. You gonna to solve the problem or sit there and say, and really can you do it with a straight face, your real issue is that these people are breaking the law?
> 
> Answer this smart guy, how much would it cost to round up every last "illegal" immigrant in this country and deport them versus how much of a supposed drain on our resources they are? I'll give you the answer, save you some googleing... It'd cost ten times the amount. AT least. It'd be more than half our budget deficit for the year. No where near the cost of illegal immigration to our society. Not to mention the negative impact in the loss of taxes and economic activity.
> 
> You gonna keep paying a witch doctor to treat the disease or find a cure?



So what do you suggest? Amnesty? Allow those that broke our laws to get in the front of the line of those who are going about it through the proper channels? I never believe stats that tell us how much it will cost to deport. Those stats are never correct. But we do know (for a fact) that illegals take more out of the system then they put in. I have seen their with holdings on their checks. 6% that they pay to SS. On a $500 check thats $30. And they dont pay much more than that.


----------



## Bieling3

longfxukxnhair said:


> So what do you suggest? Amnesty?



I would have a conversation and discuss in a rational manner all day long any so called "hot button" topic. I've given my solutions to the problems, solutions which no one here will address. All anyone seems to do is fixate on Frank Lutz approved words like "Amnesty." 



> In reality, the 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization. The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.





> Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
> 
> Starting in the late 1980's, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect - sometimes simply fictitious - Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the "earnings suspense file" in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
> 
> The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
> 
> In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.



I've stated the facts. I'm done arguing. I'm not being heard anyways.


----------



## LesterMolester

I'm in on the tail end of this thread. 1st, we are a nation of immigrants, LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. If you are here illegal,you need to GTFO or be forced out and not be a burden of our society. 2nd, you don't deserve the govt. hand out that the legal leaches get. 3rd, quite draining our resources and go home to where ever you are from!!


----------



## cptnkrunch

Bieling3 said:


> What part of reactionary do you not understand? Drugs are illegal. Prostitution is illegal. Speeding is illegal. There are a lot of things that are illegal. You gonna to solve the problem or sit there and say, and really can you do it with a straight face, your real issue is that these people are breaking the law?
> 
> Answer this smart guy, how much would it cost to round up every last "illegal" immigrant in this country and deport them versus how much of a supposed drain on our resources they are? I'll give you the answer, save you some googleing... It'd cost ten times the amount. AT least. It'd be more than half our budget deficit for the year. No where near the cost of illegal immigration to our society. Not to mention the negative impact in the loss of taxes and economic activity.
> 
> You gonna keep paying a witch doctor to treat the disease or find a cure?


B3,
OK then smart guy, are you willing to give up your job, not have an income, lose your house, move out of your community you love with no $$$ (to god knows where) learn a new trade(me painter mid 40's), not be able to get medical help for you or your family cause you will not have money to pay a Dr or money for insurance, you may also need to sell your amps and axe's to make ends meet? This is verbatim exactly what's happening to me right now. Are you willing to make the same sacrifices that I and others are making in order for the illegals to be here?... and I highly doubt that you are. I would consider you a selfish and self centered tool for the illegals with a total lack of concern or respect for your country and the citizens of, if you're not willing to make the same sacrifices I currently am. You must still have a job or a pension, am I right? I #%&* don't and I'm currently losing everything I've worked for.... no shit. That's why this topic hits so close to home to me and other forum members and why I have such a strong opinion about it. Take the time and put yourself in mine and others shoe's I don't think you would feel the same way you do... would you? We have plenty of money to remove illegals vs letting them continue to bankrupt our country the many ways that they are. Bus tickets aren't that expensive.
I cracked up after reading your "NAFTA poor mexican farmers have lost 2 million jobs" link. How many jobs do you think American citizens have lost as a result of illegals being here any idea? Do you by chance have a few extra rooms my family and I could live in when my house sells(lost my equity)? Oh we're gonna need some cash too if ya have a few bucks you could spare, can I have your job when I get there and I'll need any savings you may have. I guess upstate NY Is about as removed from ground zero as it it gets at least for you. Can you please honestly answer the above questions I've asked you? I would love to hear your replies. Our goverment and corperate America is a problem that needs to be addressed ASAP but meanwhile back at the ranch........




Stand for what you believe in even if it mean's standing alone.


----------



## cptnkrunch

> I've stated the facts. I'm done arguing. I'm not being heard anyways.


 Those are not hard cold facts and if you believe they are.....then.. I got this bridge I'm trying to unload. Stats on both sides of this argument are exaggerated but even split down the middle we're still on the losing end. I've seen the taxes (if any)taken out of their checks, it's a joke dude and one you don't seem to get.


----------



## Gryphon

There are 5.7 billion foreigners in the world and it's therefore not practical to say that they are all entitled to just enter America and go to work - clearly that would make no sense.

However, some foreigners have come into America and are doing exactly that. Now, how long do you have to do wrong, before it becomes right? 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade? It would be hard to argue that if you've been doing something wrong for any period of time, it can then become right.

Thinking it through in that way, it's not hard to see the complete lack of logic in giving status of any kind to those here illegally.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Bieling3 said:


> I would have a conversation and discuss in a rational manner all day long any so called "hot button" topic. I've given my solutions to the problems, solutions which no one here will address. All anyone seems to do is fixate on Frank Lutz approved words like "Amnesty."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've stated the facts. I'm done arguing. I'm not being heard anyways.




This country is about "LAW OF THE LAND". People who come in here illegally need not get special treatment because they have set down roots that they shouldnt have. Others are doing it legally. Its good enough for them then the illegals need to do it as well! I have to follow laws. You do. We all do. If I go to another country I am expected to follow the laws. If I kiss my girlfriend in public in Dubai I will go to jail. Mexicos immigration laws are much tougher. Why must America not enforce our laws? Go camp on the lawn in Mexico and demand that they loosen their immigration laws. I think its laughable that Mexico demands that we allow their citizens easier access to our citizenship. All they have proven is that they care so little about their own people. They export their poverty to our country.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Gryphon said:


> There are 5.7 billion foreigners in the world and it's therefore not practical to say that they are all entitled to just enter America and go to work - clearly that would make no sense.
> 
> However, some foreigners have come into America and are doing exactly that. Now, how long do you have to do wrong, before it becomes right? 1 day, 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade? It would be hard to argue that if you've been doing something wrong for any period of time, it can then become right.
> 
> Thinking it through in that way, it's not hard to see the complete lack of logic in giving status of any kind to those here illegally.





Well said Gryphon!


----------



## plankbadger

longfxukxnhair said:


> This country is about "LAW OF THE LAND". People who come in here illegally need not get special treatment because they have set down roots that they shouldnt have.



So, if a court of native american's decided you 'white men' are here illegally and should all go home; then
you and your families would all shuffle off to the old country somewhere?
Aren't children born in the USA, US citizens - regardless of the nationality of their parents?
What if you have one US citizen and one immigrant?
What if you have two immigrants from different countries?
What is the nationality or nationalities then of the child?


----------



## Bieling3

I think what he's trying to say, plankbadger, is that if in Iran they stone a young woman and a young man to death for fornication, or if in Afghanistan they cut off the woman's nose... we should honor their laws and customs.

Why the very idea of looking at a problem and trying to solve it is absurd! There's laws after all. Just because the process of getting in this country is much harder and takes 1o times as long as it did in my Grandfather's day has no bearing on the current situation. Yup, we should honor laws no matter if they work or not, no matter if they're just or not.

P.S. cptnkrunch, I'm sorry to hear of your situation. This economy, legacy of taxcut and spend and deregulation Bush-o-nomics has hit everyone hard, citizen or no. Of course if all you're worried about is illegal immigration I think you'd be happy to know that this latest downturn has sent many back to Mexico. Your personal anecdote, however, is very reminiscent of things that have been said during every wave of immigration since the beginning of this country by Nativists.


----------



## plankbadger

From a perspective of the United Kingdom and European Union, we jointly passed legislation so that
anyone in the EU could live and work anywhere in the EU. So with my UK passport I could stay put 
or move to any of the other 26 member countries. We got a lot of people coming over especially from
Poland but its all legal. They pay taxes, they get health care. I go on holiday to Spain or France and
I'm ill - I get health care there with my European Health Insurance Card. Its a reciprocal arrangement.
I've actually worked abroad too in Holland, so all in all I think its a pretty neat system.

Would it work over your side if you had a similar arrangement with Canada and Mexico?
You get people from Mexico doing jobs in the US for less than minimum wage because they are
working illegally. If it they were legal, they would rightly demand minimum wage and the employer 
may think, if I've really got to pay the minimum wage, I may as well pay a US citizen?


----------



## tonefreak

unfortunatly, a lot of the jobs that the illegals take here, are jobs that a lot of US citizens refuse to take. waste management type stuff, farm hands, manual labor jobs...


----------



## Heavy Metal

Bieling3 said:


> Not to mention the negative impact in the loss of taxes and economic activity.



I'm curious, but how much tax do you think is collected from illegals in this country? And this economic activity you speak rarely generates much from a tax perspective if at all. Most illegals are paid under the table so no tax is collected and the economy isn't going to tank if all the illegals were removed. It would most likely force businesses to increase wages creating jobs and a tax base rather than opting to hire cheap labor most of whom have never paid taxes in the US.


----------



## Heavy Metal

tonefreak said:


> unfortunatly, a lot of the jobs that the illegals take here, are jobs that a lot of US citizens refuse to take. waste management type stuff, farm hands, manual labor jobs...



If you were a business owner would you rather pay a worker below minimum wage or a decent wage? 

That's why companies hire illegals. They can get the same amount of work at 1/3 the cost, which in turn helps the business owner in terms of the bottom line. When they crackdown on companies hiring illegals some of the problem will take care of itself.


----------



## tonefreak

If America as a county weren't so dang lazy (my self included), we'd not have the problems with illegals that we do. American's would be working on farms, American's would be doing the hot smelly road construction, American's would be taking the roofing jobs, that pay 6.75 an hour, or whatever minimum wage is now, their wouldn't be so many issues with illegals because there would be no work for them to take...


----------



## Heavy Metal

tonefreak said:


> If America as a county weren't so dang lazy (my self included), we'd not have the problems with illegals that we do. American's would be working on farms, American's would be doing the hot smelly road construction, American's would be taking the roofing jobs, that pay 6.75 an hour, or whatever minimum wage is now, their wouldn't be so many issues with illegals because there would be no work for them to take...



That's partially true, but business owners have to start paying better wages. $10.00 an hour is poverty level so I'm not sure how many people would be willing to work for minimum wage when they have a mortgage payment, insurance, etc...


----------



## plankbadger

tonefreak said:


> If America as a county weren't so dang lazy (my self included), we'd not have the problems with illegals that we do. American's would be working on farms, American's would be doing the hot smelly road construction, American's would be taking the roofing jobs, that pay 6.75 an hour, or whatever minimum wage is now, their wouldn't be so many issues with illegals because there would be no work for them to take...



I think you are looking at it upside down. 
If you had a minimum wage that was reasonable and you punished employers who
paid less than minimum ( even to illegals ) then there would be no issue.
Americans would take unpleasant jobs for reasonable wages.
In the UK at today's exchange rate our minimum wage is the equivalent of $9.03 and 
obviously still not too great. Employers who try and pay less than that get screwed by employment tribunals 
they very rarely try to get around it.


----------



## Bieling3

Heavy Metal said:


> I'm curious, but how much tax do you think is collected from illegals in this country? And this economic activity you speak rarely generates much from a tax perspective if at all. Most illegals are paid under the table so no tax is collected and the economy isn't going to tank if all the illegals were removed. It would most likely force businesses to increase wages creating jobs and a tax base rather than opting to hire cheap labor most of whom have never paid taxes in the US.



Good question...

Do illegal immigrants receive more government benefits than they pay in taxes? | redblueamerica.com


----------



## cptnkrunch

QUOTE]If you had a minimum wage that was reasonable and you punished employers who
paid less than minimum ( even to illegals ) then there would be no issue.
Americans would take unpleasant jobs for reasonable wages.
[/QUOTE]

That is a fact. I would gladly pick berries right now to support my family and save my house…….it’s easier than my current job. One thing I've watched change in the const. industry over the yrs, is not only corporate America responsible for giving away our jobs but also some of the smaller contracting co’s. being some of the worst offenders mostly because their budgets are tighter and they're trying to cash in high on the profit percentages.....but at who's cost? Sad a lot of American's have ignored the welfare of their own people. There's a lot of people to blame on both sides of this argument. I'm sure with the economy my business would be slow right now but I know I'd at least have a few things coming in, hopefully enough to survive. Still lot's of illegals working where I live and it’s not right when US citizens are losing their houses and going bankrupt. Being a contractor I’m not eligible for any un-employment benefits and to make matters even worse( and way off topic) my un-medicated, bi-polar, manic depressive, alcoholic wife just moved out a week ago and left me with all the bills.......I'm good with all of it but the bills suck...lovely yr so far.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

plankbadger said:


> So, if a court of native american's decided you 'white men' are here illegally and should all go home; then
> you and your families would all shuffle off to the old country somewhere?
> Aren't children born in the USA, US citizens - regardless of the nationality of their parents?
> What if you have one US citizen and one immigrant?
> What if you have two immigrants from different countries?
> What is the nationality or nationalities then of the child?



REALLY? You want to bring up the native american thing? Thats fucking funny.

The rest of your statement is bull shit too. And frankly, it bores me. Illegal is illegal. Its not a race and its not a color. It is a status. A status that all countries use. Not just America. And as long as the world has borders it will remain that way. America will not be an exception. Run for office and change it or accept it.


----------



## cptnkrunch

Something my Mom sent me. 

Back in September of 2005, on the first day of 
> school, Martha Cothren, a social studies school teacher at Robinson 
> High School in Little Rock, did something not to be forgotten. On the 
> first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendent, 
> the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all of the desks 
> out of her classroom.
> 
> When the first period kids entered the room they 
> discovered that there were no desks.
> 
> "Ms. Cothren, where're our desks?"
> 
> She replied, "You can't have a desk until you 
> tell me how you earn the right to sit at a desk."
> 
> They thought, "Well, maybe it's our grades."
> 
> "No," she said.
> 
> "Maybe it's our behavior."
> 
> She told them, "No, it's not even your behavior."
> 
> And so, they came and went, the first period, 
> second period, third period. Still no desks in the classroom.
> 
> By early afternoon television news crews had 
> started gathering in Ms. Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy 
> teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room.
> 
> The final period of the day came and as the 
> puzzled students found seats on the floor of the deskless classroom, 
> Martha Cothren said, "Throughout the day no one has been able to tell 
> me just what he/she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that 
> are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now I am going to tell you."
> 
> At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the 
> door of her classroom and opened it.
> 
> Twenty-seven (27) U.S. Veterans, all in uniforms, 
> walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The Vets 
> began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over 
> and stand alongside the wall. By the time the last soldier had set the 
> final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the 
> first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had 
> been earned.
> 
> Martha said, "You didn't earn the right to sit 
> at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks 
> here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them.. It is your 
> responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens. 
> They paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an 
> education. Don't ever forget it."
> 
> By the way, this is a true story.
> 
> Please consider passing this along so others 
> won't forget that the freedoms we have in this great country were 
> earned by U. S. Veterans
>


----------



## longfxukxnhair

cptnkrunch said:


> something my mom sent me.
> 
> Back in september of 2005, on the first day of
> > school, martha cothren, a social studies school teacher at robinson
> > high school in little rock, did something not to be forgotten. On the
> > first day of school, with the permission of the school superintendent,
> > the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all of the desks
> > out of her classroom.
> >
> > when the first period kids entered the room they
> > discovered that there were no desks.
> >
> > "ms. Cothren, where're our desks?"
> >
> > she replied, "you can't have a desk until you
> > tell me how you earn the right to sit at a desk."
> >
> > they thought, "well, maybe it's our grades."
> >
> > "no," she said.
> >
> > "maybe it's our behavior."
> >
> > she told them, "no, it's not even your behavior."
> >
> > and so, they came and went, the first period,
> > second period, third period. Still no desks in the classroom.
> >
> > by early afternoon television news crews had
> > started gathering in ms. Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy
> > teacher who had taken all the desks out of her room.
> >
> > the final period of the day came and as the
> > puzzled students found seats on the floor of the deskless classroom,
> > martha cothren said, "throughout the day no one has been able to tell
> > me just what he/she has done to earn the right to sit at the desks that
> > are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now i am going to tell you."
> >
> > at this point, martha cothren went over to the
> > door of her classroom and opened it.
> >
> > twenty-seven (27) u.s. Veterans, all in uniforms,
> > walked into that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The vets
> > began placing the school desks in rows, and then they would walk over
> > and stand alongside the wall. By the time the last soldier had set the
> > final desk in place those kids started to understand, perhaps for the
> > first time in their lives, just how the right to sit at those desks had
> > been earned.
> >
> > martha said, "you didn't earn the right to sit
> > at these desks. These heroes did it for you. They placed the desks
> > here for you. Now, it's up to you to sit in them.. It is your
> > responsibility to learn, to be good students, to be good citizens.
> > they paid the price so that you could have the freedom to get an
> > education. Don't ever forget it."
> >
> > by the way, this is a true story.
> >
> > please consider passing this along so others
> > won't forget that the freedoms we have in this great country were
> > earned by u. S. Veterans
> >





+100000000000000


----------



## FLICKOFLASH

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsH8xvjTAlo[/ame]


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Appeal is set for early Nov!


----------



## j2112c

Reuters had reported Gabrielle Giffords has died following a point black shot to the head by perhaps two gun men at an open air debate with her constituents.

If this turns out to be the case it is a sad, shocking and terrible turn of events.

Nobody is sure of the motivation or whether it was related to this bill.

Condolences to her family if transpires she has died or suffered serious injury.
It really is quite appalling I think you would all agree.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

j2112c said:


> Reuters had reported Gabrielle Giffords has died following a point black shot to the head by perhaps two gun men at an open air debate with her constituents.
> 
> If this turns out to be the case it is a sad, shocking and terrible turn of events.
> 
> Nobody is sure of the motivation or whether it was related to this bill.
> 
> Condolences to her family if transpires she has died or suffered serious injury.
> It really is quite appalling I think you would all agree.



My local paper reports the following

Arizona Congresswoman Giffords shot; doctors 'optimistic' about recovery chances


----------



## j2112c

Let us hope it is not as serious as first reported.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

j2112c said:


> Let us hope it is not as serious as first reported.



agreed


----------



## chuckharmonjr

So far what Ive seen is a Federal Judge is dead..one of her aides is dead...reports of 10 people total shot...and she was shot in the head but was responding to doctor's commands...this is no way to run a railroad people...you dont like folks...shooting them is never the answer


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Fox News is now reporting 6 dead...and possibly 2 gunmen


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Im watching the news conference live...the head ER doctor was a former combat surgeon..she is alive...survived the first round of surgery...extremely critical...but may survive


----------



## chuckharmonjr

from what they said...unfortunately she is not doing well...just reading between the lines...a former combat surgeon...who has seen these types of wounds before...has stabilzed her...she is in extremely critical condition...they wont comment on the precise extent of the wounds...and pray that she stays stable and recovers to the best of her abilty considering the extent of the injury...when the county sheriff says that in an official new conference I would say the prognosis is grave


----------



## longfxukxnhair

I do wish for the best for her and her family. I feel bad for those who lost their lives today. My heart breaks for the 9 yr old girl who passed away from this horrible event. My thoughts and prayers go out to her family and loved ones.


----------



## TwinACStacks

longfxukxnhair said:


> i do wish for the best for her and her family. I feel bad for those who lost their lives today. My heart breaks for the 9 yr old girl who passed away from this horrible event. My thoughts and prayers go out to her family and loved ones.



Amen.

--TWIN


----------



## Turrican

Ok if you don't live in AZ you may not understand what happens. if your in New York and haven't spent time here you really can't comment with any experience what it's like to live on a border with a country that is close to full out anarchy. 
Phoenix is the capital of kidnapping. we have violent smugglers running wild and having shootouts with each other in our neighborhoods and on the freeways and taking hostages on a daily basis. I know a Phoenix detective that deals with nothing but human smuggling and it is totally insane what these people are doing. the smugglers have absolutely no concern for human life and they hold these illegal immigrants hostage and they battle with each other for control of the illegal alien smuggling and drug smuggling trades and yes they are intertwined. dont believe this debate is about just "good people looking for jobs". It's about violent criminal gangs running totally unchecked with our law enforcement not even allowed to ask suspects if they are here legally. If I was in England and got stopped by law enforcement they would be able to tell I was American in about 5 seconds. wouldn't it be normal to ask what I was doing there? Its not racist it's just common sense. My mother is from Kenya and I remember how hard it was for her to immigrate legally but she did it. we need to decide if we want to have immigration legally which is totally appropriate and needs to be made easier or do we just want to keep lee tin people climbing fences and running through the desire at night to get into this country. the people that are in favor of ILLEGAL immigration never say illegal they just say immigration. They try to make it sound like Arizona is racist and agains immigration. we just want Legal, orderly, non violent immigration. Every civilized country in the world has immigration and custom laws, why can't we?


----------



## Turrican

by the way this idiot that killed these people in Tucson is a psychopath and this is not related to our immigration debate. I feel so sickened by the loss of life yesterday and pray for a recovery for the congresswoman who is a Democrat but a very center non partisan politician so I don't think we can blame the acts of a lunatic on Fox news news or CNN or whatever. We all pray for her to recover from her injuries soon.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

turrican said:


> ok if you don't live in az you may not understand what happens. If your in new york and haven't spent time here you really can't comment with any experience what it's like to live on a border with a country that is close to full out anarchy.
> Phoenix is the capital of kidnapping. We have violent smugglers running wild and having shootouts with each other in our neighborhoods and on the freeways and taking hostages on a daily basis. I know a phoenix detective that deals with nothing but human smuggling and it is totally insane what these people are doing. The smugglers have absolutely no concern for human life and they hold these illegal immigrants hostage and they battle with each other for control of the illegal alien smuggling and drug smuggling trades and yes they are intertwined. Dont believe this debate is about just "good people looking for jobs". It's about violent criminal gangs running totally unchecked with our law enforcement not even allowed to ask suspects if they are here legally. If i was in england and got stopped by law enforcement they would be able to tell i was american in about 5 seconds. Wouldn't it be normal to ask what i was doing there? Its not racist it's just common sense. My mother is from kenya and i remember how hard it was for her to immigrate legally but she did it. We need to decide if we want to have immigration legally which is totally appropriate and needs to be made easier or do we just want to keep lee tin people climbing fences and running through the desire at night to get into this country. The people that are in favor of illegal immigration never say illegal they just say immigration. They try to make it sound like arizona is racist and agains immigration. We just want legal, orderly, non violent immigration. Every civilized country in the world has immigration and custom laws, why can't we?





+10000000000


----------



## Turrican

another great part of ILLEGAL immigration is the identity theft that comes along with it. I am a project manager at a construction company and we have seen people come in with stolen social security numbers and false documents. Luckily I work for an honest company that doesn't break the law. I had one guy a month ago that applied with false documents and we sent him away and two days later he was back with ANOTHER social security number. Once the illegal aliens get into the country the next step is to steal or forge an ID which they need to work. Its easy to get as the criminal gangs also specialize in identity theft and fraud. I guess identity theft is OK in New York too.
this is what is so different about this wave of ILLEGAL immigration vs. The LEGAL immigrants that came here through Ellis Island. there is no comparison to those Irish, German, Chinese etc. LEGAL immigrants to this new lawless wave of ILLEGAL immigration. There is a difference.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Turrican said:


> another great part of ILLEGAL immigration is the identity theft that comes along with it. I am a project manager at a construction company and we have seen people come in with stolen social security numbers and false documents. Luckily I work for an honest company that doesn't break the law. I had one guy a month ago that applied with false documents and we sent him away and two days later he was back with ANOTHER social security number. Once the illegal aliens get into the country the next step is to steal or forge an ID which they need to work. Its easy to get as the criminal gangs also specialize in identity theft and fraud. I guess identity theft is OK in New York too.
> this is what is so different about this wave of ILLEGAL immigration vs. The LEGAL immigrants that came here through Ellis Island. there is no comparison to those Irish, German, Chinese etc. LEGAL immigrants to this new lawless wave of ILLEGAL immigration. There is a difference.



But there are those who would have us believe illegal immigration is a victimless crime. So should it not be against the law to speed if no one gets hurt? NO! The law is the law. Even if we disagree with it.


----------



## cptnkrunch

When I grew up in Phoenix we never had these problems, sad whats been allowed to happen to Az. My state Colorado has huge illegal immigration problems also. It's hard to watch illegals still working where I live and the citizens out of work supporting them still. WTF? I'll stop there because this issue just pisses me off as most of ya probably already know.


----------



## Bieling3

Turrican said:


> Phoenix is the capital of kidnapping.



Once again a guitar amp forum is probably not the best place to go IF YOU WANT FACTS...


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Bieling3 said:


> Once again a guitar amp forum is probably not the best place to go IF YOU WANT FACTS...



As a person who lives in AZ I can tell you this is news to me


----------



## Turrican

Bieling3 said:


> Once again a guitar amp forum is probably not the best place to go IF YOU WANT FACTS...



Man you just can't admit you don't know what your talking about. If you don't believe me just type in "kidnapping capital" in google. You will see stories from NBC,ABC, even NPR and the BBC. this is common knowledge to anybody with access to a computer or newspaper.


----------



## stax

I live in SoCal and let me tell you that things are scary down in San Diego and only moving farther north. California schools used to be number one in the world and now we are nearing last as we became over run with low performing, non-english speaking students that required more of the teachers time and effort, etc. This affects everyone and creates more low performing students by osmois.

We have become over run with gangs (many the children of illegals), this also ties into the schools and low performance and the dropout rate and of course, the crime rate. Our social programs such as welfare, foodstamps, section 8 housing, etc. are being bled dry. So what if one is working and paying taxes, chances are his mate and/or family members are collecting said benefits. I work with many that brag about their free or low cost housing and free food, simply because their girl lies and says he doesn't live with her! Go to any WIC or welfare line and about 80% will be hispanic.

And speaking of work, my last two boss have been hispanic and openly only hired relatives, relatives friends, baby mama's, etc. (they are legal, but most have several family members that aren't), I live and work in a mostly white upper middle class to upper class area and my store is now 99% hispanic (with me now the only white employee). I am approched almost daily by customers complaining about all of the spanish that they are yelling across the aisles to each other.

It is already a requirement to carry and produce a valid ID to an officer of the law when stopped. What Obama is trying to restrict is a city or state officer from enforcing federal law (but said officers can enforce bank robbery laws, etc.).

I also hate hearing the stupid saying that they only do the work that we wont! When I was a kid a white man and his son did our lawn, these guys were forced out by lower payed workers. Farmers used lower payed illegal workers and forced out other legal workers (whites and blacks used to do this kind of work too). The world would go on if "Mexicans didn't go to work for a day"!

And sorry, but the Indians didn't like them here, they thought of them as squatters on their land. We also payed Mexico a pretty penny for the southwest. It's estimated that it was around 2 billion dollars by todays standard.

I could go on and on, but you have to live in the heart of it to understand that this problem is an extra strain on the taxpayer of the state (there are many other problems too granted, and most all of them could be easily solved). I completely feel for those that live in complete poverty and I would prolly sneak in too, but at this point we need to start somewhere and do something! Being born here by illegal parents shouldn't mean squat, the law was created for the children of slaves. If I were caught sneaking into any other country in the world I would be jailed and deported or much worse, only here in America when caught you get free housing, food, medical care, schooling, everything written in spanish and some kind of say so in our laws and the process!

America gives billions to Mexico, they have massive natural resources such as number 2 silver reserve in the world, etc. These people should be protesting their government as we did ours two hundred years ago.


----------



## Bieling3

Turrican said:


> Man you just can't admit you don't know what your talking about. If you don't believe me just type in "kidnapping capital" in google. You will see stories from NBC,ABC, even NPR and the BBC. this is common knowledge to anybody with access to a computer or newspaper.


 When you type "kidnapping capital" in google the number three result is the politifact story debunking all those other articles from the BBC, NPR, NBC, and ABC.



> We tracked down the ABC News report where the claim was originally made. Phoenix has indeed experienced hundreds of kidnappings over the past few years. However, we found no evidence to that only Mexico City experiences more. Experts said such rankings can't be made based on available information. If they could, they speculate, other cities would prove to have more kidnappings than Arizona's capital. We rated Dewhurst's statement False.
> 
> U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., shortly hammered the same claim, wondering on a June 27 TV program why "is it that Phoenix, Arizona, is the number two kidnapping capital of the world?” We rated his statement False as well.



...and from the previous link:



> . . . Phoenix has been dealing with the issue for several years now, and the number of reported kidnappings have actually decreased since this story broke in 2009. There were 358 reported kidnappings in 2008 (10 fewer than reported by the LA Times, due to later reclassification of the crimes), 318 in 2009 and there were 105 from January through May 2010, he said, putting the city on track to sustain less than 300 this year.



A recent headline:

FBI: Violent crime, property crime on downward trend



> The nation experienced a 6.2 percent decrease in the number of violent crimes and a 2.8 percent decline in the number of property crimes from January to June 2010, when compared with data from the same time period in the prior year, according to FBI statistics released Monday.
> 
> The FBI's Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report is based on information from more than 12,000 law enforcement agencies that submitted three to six comparable months of data to the FBI during the first six months of both 2009 and 2010.
> 
> The data showed that the number of violent and property crimes reported continued to drop this year despite significant declines in the nation's economy - surprising some experts who historically have seen crime increase during difficult economic periods. While the FBI report does not list a reason for the decline, many experts have attributed it to an aging population and increases in law enforcement funding.



The trend magnified:

Mandatory sentencing is working for Arizona



> Look at where Arizona was in 2007 - second in property crimes and third in overall reported crimes per capita. By 2008, well into the use of mandatory sentencing, Arizona dropped to fourth in property crimes and fifth in overall reported crimes. By 2009 (the most recently reported year) we've plummeted to 15th in overall reported crimes. And the downward trend continues.



Who doesn't know what they're talking about. So sad to live in such fear.


----------



## Turrican

So sad to be ignorant like you. Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the us the only place with more is Mexico city according to your articles. I don't live in fear I live in reality and most importantly unlike you I live here where I can see what is happening. Keep sticking your head in the sand.


----------



## Bieling3

Turrican said:


> Phoenix is the kidnapping capital of the us the only place with more is Mexico city according to your articles.



 Maybe it is true what they say about southern schools and property taxes and reading comprehension. Or maybe you're just dyslexic. I'm not trying to be mean here, but I don't understand how you can read something and come away with the total opposite information that the article is trying to impart.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Beiling brings up some valid points. At one time Phx was the kidnapping capital. Now it has moved down. Or so it looks like by some of the figures released. Lets say Phx is number 2 or 3. It still doesnt change the fact we were #1 and new numbers show we are STILL really high on that list. And why is that? Its due to the border. If the border was secured how would that changes the numbers? Would it change at all? I believe it would. But what we do know for sure is under both Bush and Obama the border isnt secured. So while the American public is having their 4th amendment trampled on by the TSA at airports the southern border is wide open. 
One thing both presidents (and others as well) have failed to do is live up to their oath to secure this country. They havent just failed on the securing the border aspect either. How many have not preserved, protected and defend the Constitution?

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Of course one must read the Constitution to know what it is that you must do to live up to your oath. How many here think presidents either havent read the Constitution or dont care what it says and thats why they allow themselves or other elected officials to violate the founding documents?


----------



## cptnkrunch

> Quote:
> . . . Phoenix has been dealing with the issue for several years now, and the number of reported kidnappings have actually decreased since this story broke in 2009. There were 358 reported kidnappings in 2008 (10 fewer than reported by the LA Times, due to later reclassification of the crimes), 318 in 2009 and there were 105 from January through May 2010, he said, putting the city on track to sustain less than 300 this year


. 
I think that's a bad stat and speculative only, 105 from Jan thru May of 2010 is 5 months, they have 7 months to go. I haven't look for the monthly stats for Az but the last 1/2 of the yr in Mex has been very violent with lots of fatalities and I'm sure kidnappings too or mabye they're just shootoing them more now, that would dip into the kidnapping stat. I'm not sure if all the stat #'s for 2010 would even be finished yet. IDK
Even if they came in at 300 people, that's a lot of flipp'n people dissapeared/kidnapped and does it reall matter if they're 1st, 2nd or 5th anything in the top 10 is not going to be good.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

For those who want to be informed

2 incomplete tunnels found at Arizona-Mexico border


----------



## Turrican

Bieling3 said:


> Maybe it is true what they say about southern schools and property taxes and reading comprehension. Or maybe you're just dyslexic. I'm not trying to be mean here, but I don't understand how you can read something and come away with the total opposite information that the article is trying to impart.:
> 
> Well I grew up in Southern California and moved to Az 12 years ago but never thought of myself as "southern" I guess I'm just a product of the California "southern" public schools and its Universities around that hillbilly town of Los Angeles. We just don't have the resources you have in upstate New York. Were all just a bunch of hicks.


----------



## Turrican

So Beiling3, do you think we have a right to have any immigration laws at all or should everybody from every place in the world just be allowed to come and go freely? I know some people I talk to think there should be no restriction on immigration at all. Not being sarcastic just wonder if your of that opinion.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Turrican said:


> So Beiling3, do you think we have a right to have any immigration laws at all or should everybody from every place in the world just be allowed to come and go freely? I know some people I talk to think there should be no restriction on immigration at all. Not being sarcastic just wonder if your of that opinion.



Every country has a right to make laws regarding immigration. America is no exception. But there are those who feel that America is wrong for having a immigration policy. First off its there for a reason. The main reason is so our system isnt overloaded. You cant shell shock the system. Then there is the health issue. But more importantly than anything else is Congress has the authority to create the immigration system and rules governing it. Why havent they changed the rules?
Amensty was granted by a Repub President. As we now know, it didnt work. Because here we are again. Amnesty is not the answer and I will fight tooth and nail to make sure it doesnt happen. All immigrants need to go through the approved process. I would have to do the same if I tried to immigrate to another country. I sure as shit wouldnt sneak into another country and demand services that I didnt pay into and that I am not owed. Do you know why? Because I have to much respect for myself! I dont let others pay my way. Its their country so its their rules. If I want to live there I better play by their rules.


----------



## Turrican

Do a search for "Mexican immigration laws". Makes you realize the hypocrisy of this argument. I will let myself out of this thread now. those of us that live here and see it every day won't ever convince those of that just think it's all make believe and everything is great.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

turrican said:


> do a search for "mexican immigration laws". Makes you realize the hypocrisy of this argument.



+1000000000000000000000


----------



## Bieling3

Turrican said:


> So Beiling3, do you think we have a right to have any immigration laws at all or should everybody from every place in the world just be allowed to come and go freely? I know some people I talk to think there should be no restriction on immigration at all. Not being sarcastic just wonder if your of that opinion.



I think that thinking you can just make laws and throw tax dollars at them in an effort to enforce them is plain stupidity. It's the nature of life to adapt and overcome. Any such effort will eventually be undermined and sometimes you have to wonder who is on which side of the prison fence. You have to address the underlying causes to stop illegal immigration from Mexico. NAFTA and The Drug War. 

I do think it's funny that most countries in the Western World do have very little in the way of restrictions on Freedom of Movement historically:



> Before World War I, one could travel from Paris to Saint Petersburg without a passport. This freedom of movement ended with the war, but several local free-travel zones were later established.



But when it comes to the avenues more swarthy people would take they are blocked...


----------



## Bieling3

Case in point:

Homeland Security Cancels ‘Virtual Fence’ After $1 Billion Is Spent
By JULIA PRESTON


> The Department of Homeland Security on Friday canceled a project to build a technology-based “virtual fence” across the Southwest border, saying that the effort — on which $1 billion has already been spent — was ineffective and too costly.
> 
> Janet Napolitano, the homeland security secretary, said she had decided to end the five-year-old project, known as SBI-Net, because it “does not meet current standards for viability and cost effectiveness.” In a statement, Ms. Napolitano said border agents would instead use less expensive technology that is already part of their surveillance equipment, tailoring it to the specific terrain where they will be scouting for illegal border crossers and drug traffickers.
> 
> Ms. Napolitano’s decision brought a long-expected close to a project carried out by the Boeing Corporation under a contract first signed in 2005 under President George W. Bush, which had been plagued by delays and cost overruns. Originally estimated to cost more than $7 billion to cover the 2,000-mile length of the border, it was the subject of more than a dozen scathing reports by the Government Accountability Office.
> 
> In a pilot program in Arizona, it cost about $1 billion to build the system across 53 miles of the state’s border. Officials said the new approach, using mobile surveillance systems and unmanned drones already in the Border Patrol’s arsenal, would cost less than $750 million to cover the remaining 323 miles of Arizona’s border.


----------



## Turrican

again, you don't live here and you don't know what the hell your talking about. I know people that worked as contractors on "the fence". It was just a great boondoggle from the get go. Politicians pretending to be doing something building a worthless fence lining their friends pockets with our tax money and after not even half ass trying to do it properly they decide to say it isn't going to work and our money was spent for nothing. Of course they spent all the money and cashed all the checks first. If they have all this great technology and don't need a fence the why the fuck don't they use it already?


----------



## Bieling3

I was stationed in El Paso for over two years so I know a little bit about living on the border. And I'm really starting to wonder what the point of having any kind of discussion with you when you tell me I don't know what the hell I'm talking about and then go on to reiterate the very same point I'd made about the tax payers being robbed with all the security theater BS.


----------



## Turrican

the efforts have been a total waste of money because they really aren't trying thats the whole point!!!!! we want them to start making a difference and not just wasting money to make people believe they are doing something. but if you can't even ask somebody where they are from and if they are here legally or not then you can't enforce anything. that's the whole point of the immigration bill. Its nothing new we just want to enforce the laws already on the books that the federal government either refuses to do or are incapable of doing.


----------



## longfxukxnhair

Turrican said:


> the efforts have been a total waste of money because they really aren't trying thats the whole point!!!!! we want them to start making a difference and not just wasting money to make people believe they are doing something. but if you can't even ask somebody where they are from and if they are here legally or not then you can't enforce anything. that's the whole point of the immigration bill. Its nothing new we just want to enforce the laws already on the books that the federal government either refuses to do or are incapable of doing.



Politicians are doing what they do best with this. Playing politics! On the federal level its even worse. Show me one politician besides the Paul's who are living up to the oath the swore on?


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## Bieling3

Goodtimes.


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## Whitey

Bieling3 said:


> Goodtimes.



Thanks for the nostalgia. That was awesome.


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## John 14:6

Public opinion in California favors the AZ bill, but our politicians hate it. They just want the votes and don't care about things like laws and fiscal budgets. Everyone is welcome to come to California and do whatever they want as long as they vote Democrat. That is an unfortunate fact of life here.


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## elcid

Don't forget cheap labor. Americans love the cheap labor that Illegal immigration brings in.


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## longfxukxnhair

holy necrobump


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## Feeling Supersonic

haha political overload.

POO STAIN


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## Adwex

Hmm, I wonder if there's a "grandfather clause" around here.


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## Adwex

Adwex said:


> Hmm, I wonder if there's a "grandfather clause" around here.



Nope, don't see one.


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## crossroadsnyc

Adwex said:


> Hmm, I wonder if there's a "grandfather clause" around here.



This was the 666th post on this thread ... just saying ...


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## elcid

Adwex said:


> Hmm, I wonder if there's a "grandfather clause" around here.




Isn't that a Tim Allen movie?


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## SmokeyDopey

Adwex talks to himself.


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## Whitey

...uhm...Mr. Moderator....sir.....you ARE the grandfather.......sir.......


,,..no b..b.b...b..br...br...br...br....bra..bra..b.brag.....jus...jus.jus..jus...fact


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## Adwex

From Wikipedia:

****

"Grandfather clause is a legal term used to describe a situation in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations, while a new rule will apply to all future situations. It is often used as a verb: to grandfather means to grant such an exemption. Frequently, the exemption is limited; it may extend for a set period of time, or it may be lost under certain circumstances. For example, a "grandfathered power plant" might be exempt from new, more restrictive pollution laws, but those rules would apply if the plant were expanded. Often, such a provision is used as a compromise, to effect new rules without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied."

****

The exemption IS limited, and if certain circumstances arise, it WILL be lost.


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## Whitey

And is only as effective as the CEO is in implementing or disregarding it...

This is very informative though...I thought it was just a phrase you hear 

around Christmas time...,,

Lets say I found a hit of acid that was still legal when I left it in my old coat pocket. ,,and then forgot about it ..that's a long time ago....I just found it !!! Yippee... Well it was
legal when I bought it, so it's still legal now....not.....laws have changed........

and besides, I'd have to be out of.....mmmm...my ......my ........mi....mind......iz....I wuz ta tatatatatat ........uhm.....


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## SmokeyDopey

That's a great impersonation.


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## Söulcaster

Immigration Bill, nope dont know him =P


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## Whitey

Söulcaster said:


> Immigration Bill, nope dont know him =P



,,Ya, he's the one that was engaged to Illegal Adrian....,,


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## Australian

I want our Prime Minister to lose weight on her ass. And spend less time at the hairdresser. Is that too much to ask?


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## Söulcaster

Australian said:


> I want our Prime Minister to lose weight on her ass. And spend less time at the hairdresser. Is that too much to ask?



More cushion for the pushin'


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## keef1367

I find arguments like this rather ironic due to the fact that most if not all modern countries are all mostly full of illegal immigrants ask the native Americans, Aboriginals or the ancient Britons, Gauls, Palestinians, the list goes on and on here in the UK we have a massive immigrant situation at the moment (problem to some) mainly eastern Europeans since countries like Poland and other ex eastern block/ ex communist joined the E.U. they can legally work anywhere in Europe and we have no say at all! there is no work here we are in the depths of the biggest recession since the 30's plenty of people are willing to moan about it but no one can come up with a solution.
Edie Izzard got it right with the flag routine spot on!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k]Eddie Izzard - Do you have a flag? - YouTube[/ame]

Just remember before we condemn anyone as an Illegal immigrant that we ourselfs are not so far removed


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## SmokeyDopey

"Ya hotshot, wanna get props and be a saviour
First show a little respect, change your behavior
Change your attitude, change your plan
*There could never really be justice on stolen land*
Are you really for peace and equality?
Or when my car is hooked up, you know you wanna follow me
Your laws are minimal
Cause you won't even think about lookin' at the real criminal"

KRS-One


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