# Marshall Tone VS Mesa/Boogie Tone



## allstar100595

Hi, I keep looking at posts for this answer, and everyone seems to avoid it. Everyone says, just listen to an album, just depends on what you like, try it out, etc. I want to know though, what IS the actual difference in tone, and why do YOU like one better than the other? I'm trying to gather some opinions here, thanks.


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## AlisterHag

It's all relative. Honestly though, it's cause Marshall can kick Mesa's a** in a fight!


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## V-man

Sometimes the meaning is lost in the words when you hear "bright, flat, fizzy, fat, etc." all thrown out at once. I have never spent much time analyzing Mesas, but rather often I hear some metal that has a tone that I don't like... at all and coincidentally, I usually discover it was a mesa.

The best comparison for me is "Ride The Lightning" vs "And Justice For All". Unsurprisingly, AJFA was considered bar none the shittiest Metallica Album tonewise (though in fairness, Newstead being washed out of the mix was an important reason for this). Moreover, Metallica has long been criticized for their tone, (don't ask me about post-'91... I wouldn't know and that's not Metallica), and most who give them a pass or cite the "best tone" generally do so with Ride The Lightning. This is the one All-Marshall album with top-grade production.


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## Crunchcity

Marshalls have a grind in the midrange that I don't hear in alot of Mesa's, but there are alot of different sounding amps in the Mesa lineup so it's easy to overgeneralize.


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## JakeQJCM2000

I have nothing against Mesa's myself. Of course, I am a Marshall lover...they are the " Holy Grail" of amplifiers, but I do like Mesa's too. I like them because they aren't a copy cat amp of Marshall like almost all the other amps. They have their own sound. I've spent some time with a Dual Rect. before and I got this certain " Raunchy" tone out of it, that I can't seem to get from my TSL. But than again my TSL has a much diffrent tone compared to the Mesa. Guitar amps are all preference, but to me Marshall and Mesa amps are the only amps I'd ever buy.


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## KH Guitar Freak

I can definitely see where this thread will head in general...


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## fretfire6

Mesa's always remind me of a scooped tone and I prefer a definite mid range "honk" if that makes sense. You can't argue with Mesa's build quality IMO. For tone, I prefer the Marshall style gain, overdrive, or distortion. Never could get what I liked from a Mesa.


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## diesect20022000

It depends on which mesa. I can't stand the rectos anymore. they sound fine once dialed in but, the feel is artaficial to me. They have crappy attack. marshalls in general have more harmoic complexity and a more organic feel Plus i like the balance of pick attack and dense harmonics i get from the Marshalls i've used. That said, the mesa stilettos are amazing, the mark series kick balls too and they're built way better than any modern Marshall i've used. Unfortunately build takes a backseat to tone and in this case I personaly prefer Marshall inGENERAL. The stilettos though....those made a Mesa fan out of me. They're (yeah go ahead i know, I shouldn't say it) are what i WANT from a Marshall but, can't get without mods.

I still wouldn't off my Marshalls unless they're replaceable (like a DSL which is an AWESOME tone machine but, build is...eh.) This is my honest experience. This also to not....i traded off my rectoverb (which was ONE recto i LIKED) to re purchase my much loved DSL.

You very much have to play them to decide what you prefer as TONE is SUBJECTIVE but, build quality generaly isn't and Mesa wins there imo for sure, hands down.

Now, If Marshall started building with Mesa quality...i would never even think about getting a mesa again and even now, the ones i want are the hot rodded Marshalls dubbed "Stiletto's"

To be honest though my favorite amp i own is my Dragon. The Marshall "sound" is open (but, a close description is bright and edgey, good pick attack) as every Marshall has a unique voice, same with Mesa's.

If you like the "Marshall sound" though but, decide Mesa's your company, the ONLY amps they have that'll satiusfy that tone craving is the stiletto line.

The Mark series are more Marshall like (bright and edgey) than rectos. Rectos are dark and muddy. There ARE some decent ones but, I just prefer the Marshall tones over Mesa tones.


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## nedcronin

I like boogies, but for me, I can get every tone out of them but the one I want. The older ones had a pretty good brown sound going, like the Mark 2 c I used to have. Also that amp was rediculously loud for 60 watts. I just like the overdrive sounds from a Marshall better, just a preference thing. I do think most boogies are great clean amps though, like a fender but with more grunt and great clean sustain. In think they are so particular and the controls are so sensitive that they can be tough to find what you are looking for. Just my opinion.


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## Marshall Mann

This is a Marshall forum, to the answer seems preordained. 

I have a Dual Rec and I love it as much as my Marshalls (to be fair, it is re-tubed with NOS Raytheon 12ax7's and RCA 6L6's). As for Dies comments about the attack, I disagree completely (sorry Die!). The Mesa has a very edgy attack if you dial it in as such. And to say a Mesa can only do scooped tones would be a bit short sighted. No Marshall can get that rectifier "sag" that a Mesa has. This by no means makes it a better amp, only different.


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## diesect20022000

I don't think i said anything about it sounding scooped but, the rest is opinion. I got bright tones from my rec but, not bright pick attack and it just never had that one thing i liked in my DSL. Otherwise though I agree. They're great amps. I like the Mark series and stilettos but, the rectos just never quite do it for me. They have something in the upper mids missing. They have tons of treble though. I got some killer tones out of it but, ultimately for my tastes i've just found i like Marshall tones more.
It's very much a personal preferance thing with the tones anyway but, Marshalls build quality is weak compared to mesa. To me that's Marshalls only real downfall.

I'd love a stiletto or Mark II,III,IV or V though.

You can get any tonal type from either company though it's just personal tastes.
Really though i prefer my Dragon over everything else for metal or most anything else. That thing's a Marshall on steroids. I'll rescind the dark and muddy thing but, they do have flubby lows. It can be dialed out but, I've found with rectos once i dial in a sound i like i don't like the feel and vice versa, with a Marshall i have both.


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## Buggs.Crosby

I'll take a C+ or maybe a Coliseum


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## nedcronin

I can't imagine the earth shattering power of a coliseum, how many power tubes are in one of those beasts ???


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## Buggs.Crosby

nedcronin said:


> I can't imagine the earth shattering power of a coliseum, how many power tubes are in one of those beasts ???



6 6L6's


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## NewReligion

WOW! Can of worms, lol.


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## Landshark

Marshall Mann said:


> No Marshall can get that rectifier "sag" that a Mesa has.



Not even a tube rectified Marshall?


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## kfowler8

Well I like Mesas. In fact I'd like to have one. I'll admit that I'm not as familiar with them and I've played some I didn't like. I've also heard some I really liked. To me they tend to be edgier than a Marshall. Definitely more scooped mids. I'd line to pick up a single Rectifier if I found one. I'm kind of in to single channel amps for simplicity.

In the end, they're both great amps and no one says you can't love em both.


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## jcmjmp

Metallica's "And Justice For All" needs to be re-mixed and re-released. Tonally, that is a bad album.


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## DSL100 Dude

Here we go again.
IMO, the difference in Marshall and Mesa/Boogie is what I call "the Grunt". When Marshall dropped the 800 series for the 900's I made my move to Mesa. I had a few different models but settled in on the .50 Cal.+ I still have that head today. It is a great sounding amp and for those of you that are old enough to understand it is classic Boogie all the way. The Rectumfriers never did do it for me so a couple of years ago I came back to Marshall. "The Grunt" was back! I really had not realized how much I had missed that sound. You will know it when you hear it and feel it. There is just something about hitting that A chord and getting hit in the chest with the sound.


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## Ascension

For me it's more about feel between the 2 that the tones. The Marshalls are more open organic and touch sensitive the Boogies creamier smoother but also stiff and unresponsive. Boogies sound great with someone else playing them but I have owned several and always find myself fighting that feel rather than playing the amp and making music.
Both have there place find which one works for YOU is the answer. You might wind up like me and find that in the end there is something else that you like better than BOTH (ZINKYS!!) Bottom line it is what works for YOU(and BTW I still own a JCM 900 MK III and from time to time need my Marshall "fix" but own NO Boogies!)


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## diesect20022000

Ascension said:


> For me it's more about feel between the 2 that the tones. The Marshalls are more open organic and touch sensitive the Boogies creamier smoother but also stiff and unresponsive. Boogies sound great with someone else playing them but I have owned several and always find myself fighting that feel rather than playing the amp and making music.
> Both have there place find which one works for YOU is the answer. You might wind up like me and find that in the end there is something else that you like better than BOTH (ZINKYS!!) Bottom line it is what works for YOU(and BTW I still own a JCM 900 MK III and from time to time need my Marshall "fix" but own NO Boogies!)


 Yeah the feel's a big factor for me too. I liked my recotverb's sounds a lot but, it never fealt right to me. It was stiff. I thought it was tubes and retubed it with 0 results in that dept. Nothing wrong with them, it's just not my thing either.


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## madmmx

V-man said:


> Sometimes the meaning is lost in the words when you hear "bright, flat, fizzy, fat, etc." all thrown out at once. I have never spent much time analyzing Mesas, but rather often I hear some metal that has a tone that I don't like... at all and coincidentally, I usually discover it was a mesa.
> 
> The best comparison for me is "Ride The Lightning" vs "And Justice For All". Unsurprisingly, AJFA was considered bar none the shittiest Metallica Album tonewise (though in fairness, Newstead being washed out of the mix was an important reason for this). Moreover, Metallica has long been criticized for their tone, (don't ask me about post-'91... I wouldn't know and that's not Metallica), and most who give them a pass or cite the "best tone" generally do so with Ride The Lightning. This is the one All-Marshall album with top-grade production.



Didnt Metallica use a Marshall preamp into a Mesa power section for recording?


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## diesect20022000

madmmx said:


> Didnt Metallica use a Marshall preamp into a Mesa power section for recording?


they ran the II C+ through the power section of a modified jcm800 according to an article i have but, hard to say. Some stories change with time and forgetfullness i think.

James said he ran it through an 800 "like a power section" so who knows how he ran them. I don't know that 800's had loops at all so maybe that was the mod?


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## JayCM800

Alright, I like the Rectifiers, Solo, Double or triple... But my money and my storage space is for Marshalls


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## IG88

Mesa MkIV: Thick, creamy, punchy, root beer.

Marshall DSL/modded 800: Ringing, clear, crunchy, sprite.

Circuits are vastly different, and so's the tone. Perfect for mixing together.
*scratches head* hmmm.....


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## V-man

madmmx said:


> Didnt Metallica use a Marshall preamp into a Mesa power section for recording?



I read it the way Disect wrote it (the other way around), and that was for MOP. RTL was All-marshall, though I have never read with certainty which specific Marshall(s) was/were used to record. Speculation ranges from JTM to JCM800.


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## LPMarshall hack

While I've never personally played a Mesa, many of my favorite punk bands of the 90's played Mesas. I've been to hundreds of shows and the live tone of those bands was usually pretty good. Some examples were Pennywise, Blink, No Use For a Name....etc.


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## Lespaulnmarshall

Mesa/Boogie = modern north-American hard rock/metal tone
Marshall = Classic brittish crunch tone


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## ajmora58

*Marshall Tone Vs Boogie From a Boogie Perspective*

I've played 3,000 gigs with a Mesa Boogie Mark IIB. I've played many other amps I thought were awesome at jam sessions. I love my amp best because I'm so used to it and I can get it to do extremely specific, particular things, not because I think it's the best sounding amp. I must say the Mark II is built like a tank - incredibly durable after sinful abuse on my part. And at 60 watts rms with a 250-watt EV speaker it's unbelievably loud, so I've never, ever been underpowered in any circumstance. In fact I've never played it onstage as loud as it can go.

Further Mark II attributes:
- Extremely beautiful, big, clear clean sound with giant overhead, great articulation, and amazing sustain (played with a stock 1979 Les Paul Custom).
- Incredible articulation in the dirty channel when gain and overdrive are above 7.
- Pull switches (boost, phase shift, brightness) can have a huge impact depending on which mode (clean or dirty) and volume you play. The boost switch helps if you're playing very softly but can sound UGLY, farty, distorted if you're playing medium to loud.
- Tone knobs (including brightness in back of amp) have a lot more impact if you're playing soft to medium. As you play louder, it has a very "boogie" tone no matter where you set tone knobs. By "boogie" tone I mean the tone Carlos Santana and Neal Schon had on Santana Caravanserai (an incredibly beautiful Latin rock/jazz album from the 70's), particularly "Song of the Wind." 
- I agree with those who've said Marshalls are beautiful because they articulate less and it makes them smoother. I've played some Marshalls and enjoyed that feeling. However, when I play my Boogie, even when super-overdriven, every single nuance of my picking, stopping, swiping, bending, tremoloing, etc. is perfectly clear, and the result is that it's extremely, extremely expressive.

So if I were to use one word to describe my Boogie, that's it. EXPRESSIVE.

If I were to use one word to describe Marshalls I'd say BEAUTIFULGRIND

I must mention here that to me Boogies are souped-up Fender Twin Reverbs, and based on my tiny knowledge, I believe that was Boogie founder Randall Smith's intention. The point is that Fenders have BEAUTIFUL clean tone and are extremely articulate as well.

I've seen many people who never played a boogie before play my amp and hated it. Why? Because they're not used to that super-expressiveness and they sound sloppy and naked. At the other end of the spectrum, when I've played Marshalls I feel they cover up my flaws.

Again, I am NOT saying Boogies are better. I LOVE many, many great classic rock recordings done with Marshalls, and I've been to many a concert when Marshall crunch chords give me goosebumps.

But I do love this topic and I think it's very important to discuss because all of these amps are expensive, there are huge differences between them, and for a younger player more information is always better.

I think an obvious idea is to go to youtube and find someone playing the two amps side by side - I'm sure there must be plenty of those.

Rock on!


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## SonVolt

I miss V-Man


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## LiveHardDieFree

allstar100595 said:


> Hi, I keep looking at posts for this answer, and everyone seems to avoid it. Everyone says, just listen to an album, just depends on what you like, try it out, etc. I want to know though, what IS the actual difference in tone, and why do YOU like one better than the other? I'm trying to gather some opinions here, thanks.


 
Marshall = Upper mid grind

Mesa = Lower mid grind

It's that simple.

That's why my mids give you wood.

I run both in stereo.


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## chuckharmonjr

Funny enough, in our band, Rick plays a Mark II and strats/PRS's. I of course am Marshall/Gibson....the blend in tones is both complimentary and hugely wonderful


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## SonVolt

I was a Marshall player in search of the Mesa Mark tone for 20+ years. I like both, but now that I'm strictly a bedroom warrior I like the versatility of Boogie better for my current needs.


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## chuckharmonjr

Imagine a killer strat thru a Mark II and a killer Les Paul thru a JMP blending.....almost neaven


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## juventus

Mesa have a more brutal and aggressive voicing.

Marshall = british crunch


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## slagg

Mesa=Preamp grind
Marshall=Power tube grind
I prefer the Power tube grind


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## SonVolt

slagg said:


> Mesa=Preamp grind
> Marshall=Power tube grind
> I prefer the Power tube grind




Old NMV Marshalls sure. Modern Marshalls are also focused on preamp gain.


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## ajmora58

A few more quick comments. 

Boogie amps vary greatly among models so my comments are specific to the Mark IIB. 

Every tube amp is unique - sometimes very much and even very idiosyncratic (I'm an Ivy Leaguer that's how I speak). I didn't know when I bought my Boogie but with experience I've learned that my Mark IIB is extremely so. 

It helps tremendously to use a volume pedal in the Mark IIB effects loop so you can run the (preamp) gains and (power amp) master volumes hot while not blowing the walls off of small venues and at practice. I think this also helps preamp tubes last longer.

Did you know that in a certain classes (push vs push/pull) of amps the tubes wear out much faster when you play softly? This is true of my Mark IIB. 

If you're shopping for a boogie I strongly recommend the Express 5:25 with a 12-inch speaker. It's unbelievably versatile. You can make it sound like many non-Boogie amps like Marshall, Vox, Orange, Fender. It has two channels but each channel has two settings so it's like for channels. Plus when you run it at 5 watts or 25 watts the class (push vs push/pull) is different so now you have eight amps in one. It's half the weight of a Mark II. And within the Boogie line it's not too expensive.

The Express is nowhere near as loud as the Mark II but it's loud enough for practice (unless your drummer plays VERY loud and of course many drummers do and of course that's perfectly cool) and small to medium venues. Of course you can plug other speakers in and you're rockin'.

Once again, rock on guitar brothers and sisters!


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## ajmora58

Totally true. Single-note soloing on Boogies, especially when played loudly, is ULTRATHICKAGGRESSIVE! If you're sloppy, that thickness becomes ugly. If you're a clean, precise player, that THICKNESS is truly HEAVEN-ON-EARTH!

I recommend listening to "Song of the Wind" or "Europa" by Santana to hear this incredible amplifier played at its marvelous best.

Like millions of guitarists I love Clapton, Hendrix, and Santana above all others. When it comes to tone and nuanced expressiveness, I must give Carlos the edge. When it comes to PURE blues/rock guitar playing, songwriting, and singing, Eric is the man. When it comes to psychedelic, intense, spontaneous creativity, Jimi is the king. In my best moments I hope I sound like a nice blend of these three wonderful guitarists.


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## mott555

Marshalls have a nice spike in the upper mids that can really make them stand out in a mix. Mesas seem to just equally blanket the entire audio spectrum with no strong points. They can sound great on their own, but just get drowned out by other instruments. We have this problem with our current church band, one guy plays a Vox and you can always hear him, the rhythm player plays a Mesa and you cannot hear him when the entire band is playing. I think he's mainly clashing with the keys/synth. It's so bad they're considering getting a different brand of amplifier for him.

I know some guys can make a Mesa sound good, but I've never been able to. They're hard to dial in. I'm sure that's part of our problem with the church band, none of us know how to make it sound good, and this includes a professional sound guy (not me, I was never pro) who has been mixing live audio for 15 years now.


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## SonVolt

ajmora58 said:


> (I'm an Ivy Leaguer that's how I speak).




That totally didn't sound douchy.


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## slide222

a mesa boogie mk2 with the 5band equalizer takes some beating - I had a 60/100 combo for several years , and it did everything that I asked of it and more - i'd get another one tomorrow- if I was gigging again


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## zachman

Buggs.Crosby said:


> 6 6L6's



If it has the simul-class option, you can also use (2) EL34's.






I LOVE my MKIII Coliseum, and have fooled people thinking it was a Marshall. Original owner, bought new in '86.

Here it is on the intro mimicking a Marshallesque tone on the R2 setting, and the solo (Not a Marshall tone) on the Lead channel. All the heavy rhythm work is a Cameron modded Marshall SLP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJfKjEhkyco

Sound check pic of the gear used in the video


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## zachman

chuckharmonjr said:


> Funny enough, in our band, Rick plays a Mark II and strats/PRS's. I of course am Marshall/Gibson....the blend in tones is both complimentary and hugely wonderful





That's one of the reasons I now use a Boogie Simul395 power amp in my w/d/w rig. The blend is a marriage made in Heaven, for me.


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## mott555

I was at Guitar Center today and they had a Boogie Mk IIB in the used section, they wanted $999 for it. I wasn't about to buy it but had to try it out. First off it didn't have the graphic EQ sliders on it. Secondly the knobs were not intuitively labeled, seems there were about 4 different pots labeled Volume and I wasn't sure what the difference was though one was definitely gain. Lastly it was not a metal amp at all, with the gain cranked it was very muddy. It reminded me more of a Fender than a Mesa.

I assume the IIB's are significantly different from other entries in the Mark series? This definitely wasn't a Metallica amp.


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## zachman

mott555 said:


> I was at Guitar Center today and they had a Boogie Mk IIB in the used section, they wanted $999 for it. I wasn't about to buy it but had to try it out. First off it didn't have the graphic EQ sliders on it. Secondly the knobs were not intuitively labeled, seems there were about 4 different pots labeled Volume and I wasn't sure what the difference was though one was definitely gain. Lastly it was not a metal amp at all, with the gain cranked it was very muddy. It reminded me more of a Fender than a Mesa.
> 
> I assume the IIB's are significantly different from other entries in the Mark series? This definitely wasn't a Metallica amp.



Even within the same MK designation, there were circuit variances. Originally V1 of the MK series was not a 12ax7, but was a device called a fetron, made by the phone company. My old MKIIB was great. The G-EQ is a MUST, imo.


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## SonVolt

mott555 said:


> I was at Guitar Center today and they had a Boogie Mk IIB in the used section, they wanted $999 for it. I wasn't about to buy it but had to try it out. First off it didn't have the graphic EQ sliders on it. Secondly the knobs were not intuitively labeled, seems there were about 4 different pots labeled Volume and I wasn't sure what the difference was though one was definitely gain. Lastly it was not a metal amp at all, with the gain cranked it was very muddy. It reminded me more of a Fender than a Mesa.
> 
> I assume the IIB's are significantly different from other entries in the Mark series? This definitely wasn't a Metallica amp.




This is what a Mark IIC+ sounds like, I have no experience with the IIB. Marks will sound funky until someone shows you how to dial it in. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHkyP5fadQU]Mesa mark IIC+ (VS) mark IV demo - YouTube[/ame]


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## EndGame00

With the Mark IV, it takes some fine-tuning on the Graphic EQ to get the sound in my head... I think I've mentioned it before that I don't do the V-scooped since I need the mids for lead playing.

I have a Marshall-clone and I love it to death, but I have got to admit the Mark is more fluid especially for lead solos...I feel like I didn't have to fight for every note... Legato and alternate picking are less of a struggle...

The IV-mode on the Mark V, from what I hear, is somewhat sonically different from what I am used to.... the V has too many knobs and features I really don't need.


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## SonVolt

The V has MUCH better clean and crunch channels. The IV has a better lead channel.


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## SonVolt

Matt - this also helps with how to dial one in. I know it's a Mark IV (which is what I have) but the sound should be similar. If you're coming from a Marshall background is should clear up some confusion.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDwU8Hui6zc[/ame]


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## SG~GUY

apples & oranges-

Gibson & fender-

I'd trade my 2203 for a mark v anyday.


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## mott555

The IIB definitely didn't sound anything like those clips.


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## SmokeyDopey

How do you guys pronounce it?
_May-suh_ or _Meh-suh_?


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## SonVolt

I pronounce it both ways now that I think about it. Story is Randal Smith just made a fake acronym up to sound "professional" so his company could order automotive parts. They changed it from MESA to Mesa a few years ago.


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## ajmora58

mott555 said:


> Marshalls have a nice spike in the upper mids that can really make them stand out in a mix. Mesas seem to just equally blanket the entire audio spectrum with no strong points. They can sound great on their own, but just get drowned out by other instruments. We have this problem with our current church band, one guy plays a Vox and you can always hear him, the rhythm player plays a Mesa and you cannot hear him when the entire band is playing. I think he's mainly clashing with the keys/synth. It's so bad they're considering getting a different brand of amplifier for him.
> 
> I know some guys can make a Mesa sound good, but I've never been able to. They're hard to dial in. I'm sure that's part of our problem with the church band, none of us know how to make it sound good, and this includes a professional sound guy (not me, I was never pro) who has been mixing live audio for 15 years now.


I've never had any problem being "crowded" in a mix with my Mark IIB. In fact, I've been at many jam sessions with a crowd of guitarists, sometimes with five guitars at once, and my Mark IIB stood out above all the others. I don't set it up very radical - Gain 1 around 8, Treble around 8, Presence around 7, Mids around 7, Bass around 2, Rhythm Master Volume around 2.5, Gain 2 around 8, Lead volume around 2.5. Sometimes I use the phase pull switch and or brightness pull switch (the one on the Lead channel Master Volume). I do lots of unique "dialing" though depending on the venue. I'm so used to my amp I can dial it in very quickly. I admit that dialing it in can be very subtle and of course each amp is unique. Good luck.


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## mott555

ajmora58 said:


> I've never had any problem being "crowded" in a mix with my Mark IIB. In fact, I've been at many jam sessions with a crowd of guitarists, sometimes with five guitars at once, and my Mark IIB stood out above all the others. I don't set it up very radical - Gain 1 around 8, Treble around 8, Presence around 7, Mids around 7, Bass around 2, Rhythm Master Volume around 2.5, Gain 2 around 8, Lead volume around 2.5. Sometimes I use the phase pull switch and or brightness pull switch (the one on the Lead channel Master Volume). I do lots of unique "dialing" though depending on the venue. I'm so used to my amp I can dial it in very quickly. I admit that dialing it in can be very subtle and of course each amp is unique. Good luck.



I just tried a IIB at Guitar Center yesterday and it didn't sound like any Mesa I've ever played before, I'm sure that model has no problem cutting through a mix. I'm specifically talking about anything based on the Rectifier circuit.


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## LaSanche

Those people that try to set up a Rectifier using Marshall type tone settings will make the amp sound like utter POO.... The treble in those amps is key and fairly counter- intuitive. Use less treble, more mids and lows and bring the treble back in with the presence. Likewise, using Mesa settings on almost any Marshall is heading for disaster. You actually DO have to read the manual to figure out a Rectifier, or almost any Mesa for that matter. I play both as each does something the other cannot.

Can a Mesa create a tone that hits you in the chest like a Chuck Norris roundhouse and screams at you "This is Rock and Roll ************!!!!!!!? No it cannot. They are tuned slightly lower than the chest. A Mesa will use its tone like a baseball bat to the knee, then just look at you daring you to do something.

I've always likened Marshalls to a good set of Craftsman hand tools. They do the job, always reliable, will never let you down, and feels good in your hand. Mesa/Boogie to Snap On. They do the job just as well as the Craftsman, just as reliable, but will come to your house at 3am on a Sunday right after you snapped your only 3/4" box end using it for something not actually covered under the warenty. They feel a little better in your hand, but with the premium price, comes a little better attention to the finish details, and Snap On actually does make that tool that snakes itself into a crevice where the bolt is laying at a 135 degree angle to the inverse horizon, reverse threaded, and uses a torx shapped pin that needs to be pushed in while rotating the handle counter-clockwise, while unless you use a tool that does this and is made in it's country of Headquarters origin, itll strip out and cause the space-time continuum to unravel at a pace that even would have Doctor Who shrug and say, "You're rightly ****ed".

Mainly I use my Mesa for my original Death Metal because it just stomps all over my 2203 for de-tuned stuff. If I want to play other stuff I usually use my Marshall. I love each equally like a parent does their kids. At least that is what you tell them.


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## EndGame00

To me, Marshall is like a brass knuckle to the face.... Mesa is like a combat boot stomping your head...


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## zachman

I've always thought of Boogies having round edges on the end of the notes, and Marshalls having sharp cutting edges on the end of the notes.

Both being fantastic in their own right


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## customjoe

Scouting report is in-

*Typical Marshall tone*= More mids and presence, Power tube sag in the overdrive, a little more sweetly compressed when overdriven. Sticks out more in a mix. Can get a little ice picky if you're not careful. Classic EL34 growl. Considered a more "tough guy" "balsy" "oldschool" sound. More desired tone overall but less tweakable. Easy to find great tones right out of the gate but not as versatile.

*Typical Mesa tone*= Less mids with more balance and definition. Sits back in a mix a bit more. Overdrive centered more around preamp gain and compression. Crisp highs and lots of tight bass with a round structure to it, 6L6 power section with lots of headroom. Can lack presence in a band setting if you're not careful. Considered a more "modern" "big sounding" "precise" style of overdrive. Less legendary tone but more options. Harder to find the sound you like but slightly more versatile for various styles.


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## sgstratdude

I love my Marshalls and Mesa amps. 

I do wish my Marshalls were built as durable as my Mesa's and sometimes wish my Mesa's had a bit more Marshall like upper mid cut though. Still 2 cool amp companies.

What sounds killer is running them both together. Either recorded or in a 2 guitar band.


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## Marshall_Watts87

if marshalls arent durable than why does 90% of the people on here own old marshalls, and buy them used?


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## Cold Warrior

The Mesa Mark series (III and IV) are the foundation of my sound, although it's mandatory to have a Marshall in my collection for when I want THAT sound.  And although I don't record as often with Marshalls, I must say that some of my favorite home recordings were done with Marshalls (not surprisingly, for songs in the style of '80s thrash or NWOBHM). 

I'm definitely not as into the non-Mark Mesa amps nearly as much, although the Marks are very, very special----when I get somewhere around master volume 4 or higher, the amp enters GOD MODE. My Holy Grail would be a loaded MKIIC+ or Mark III Coliseum full Mark stack in white tolex......oh the lust....


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## chuckelator

Marshall_Watts87 said:


> if marshalls arent durable than why does 90% of the people on here own old marshalls, and buy them used?



I can only say this... I own 3 Marshalls, and have played through many more than that. Of all of those, my JMP (the oldest of the lot) has NEVER had any major repair work done (other than a grounding issue where I was getting zapped every time I stepped up to a mic with my guitar in hand) It's 99% original...aside from a single piggy back resistor to correct the bias for the 6CA7's I have in the amp..which have been in there for at least 30 years and still to this day, test quite well. The amp was running biased twice as hot as it should have been, and EVERYTHING still held together, and is still the best sounding amp I own. The thing is built like a TANK. 

I've had two friends that both had JCM 800's (one a 2203, the other a 2204) Both had their issues and quirks, though they sounded great when working right.

I can't say that Marshall's are indefinitely "unreliable" because my experience has been otherwise, but I rarely, if ever, hear about problems with Mesa's. Maybe that has something to do with Marshall's saturation of the market, and to that end having more amps out in the public than Mesa, I really don't know. But it seems to me that an amps like Mesa builds, which are incredibly complex beasts, would have to be idiot proof when it comes to something like a retube (which, their proprietary tubes come to mind) to prevent any major problems. Granted, I'm no tech, but I have to imagine for even the best amp tech, a Mesa has to be a nightmare to work on.


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## sgstratdude

Marshall_Watts87 said:


> if marshalls arent durable than why does 90% of the people on here own old marshalls, and buy them used?



My DSL I purchased new in 1999 has been gigged at least 500 times and never had one problem. Marshalls are more than durable enough. But my Mesa is built to withstand a war. If I stupidly rolled both down a flight of stairs I would bet the house the Mesa would still work. 

It's like the Marshall vs Orange/Bogner/Mesa cab thing. Of course the Marshall cab isn't built "as rugged" with thick birch as the others. But it still gets the job done.


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## ibmorjamn

What I am finding out about my Single rectifier is it is difficult to record with volume up because of the amount of gain I have dialed in and the presence gets very powerful and intense. It is going to take the mid scoop speakers and 2 instead of one I think. I did get to play it through a 1960 4 x 12 cab before bringing home and that was nice.

I can get the Marshall to sound the way I like also . The Mesa seems to stay a bit tighter on the lower freq. The damn solo head is amazing for lead work but just different not necessarily better. I like them both , as has been posted above. The Mesa has a place in metal but there are many ways to get it done. I'm still figuring this one out.


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## ibmorjamn

I just got my single rec solo 50w and the new foot switch has arrived. I played my Marshall for the first time in a week and it was fun. Great crunch. I got the Boogie for the tight note articulation on the lower end and it delivers.


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## sidvicious

i did boogie with a mark 3 or 4, can't recall, back in the 80's. it was a combo, combined 6l6/el34 power amp with all sorts of shit on it.

it was a great amp; i just could never really get into it and i tried hard. i will say that i detested the cleans. virtually unusable for a nice clean tone. i don't do much pedaling but i would say that the clean side was built for pedals. it was icepick through your head clean. ugh.

but mesa's are good amps and well made.

i haven't played mesa's in the last 20 years and the amps have drastically changed since my dance with them. i do like a lot of what i hear though. but, i'm not into much of the genre that mesa is associated with. otoh, andy simmons plays mesas. who woulda...?

i never jazzed over the scooped stuff. 

i have a lot of amps. many more than on my sig. 

i'll take my sl5 for marshall and my fuchs and everything else can stay on the shelf.


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## rockgod212

the main difference's between the 2 are: mesa uses a pre-defined resonance cap mod in the NFB loop and don't forget about all the rectifier tubes that create sagging effect, it makes for a ton of low end. 

whereas the marshall is a mid range/ volume full on monster. I prefer marshall's over mesa's anyday, but you can get that lowend mesa thing going on in a marshall just by playing around with the NFB loop and adding some resonance control.


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## ibmorjamn

I think most people just don't like 6l6 amps unless they are fenders and that is for clean only. I have yet to get all sound out of my recto that it has but I get the feeling channel 2 in vintage with the kt-77 might just surprise us. The amp has balls and it it's not afraid to show them. lol Going to rip some ass this week end with those tubes in. 

I can see why so many people prefer the rectoverb over the single but it is kind of nonsense because a lot of people use reverb pedals and rack reverb , wtf ?


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## ToXiK

I like both I have a JCM 900, a DSL 100, and a Mesa Roadster dual rec combo. I like them all. I can get great sounds out of all 3.


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## SonVolt

It's not that Marshalls aren't built well, it's that Mesa's are _over-built_. It's like typing on a Dell laptop vs a ToughBook. They're both going to take a beating, one just has higher quality build materials and craftsmanship.


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## SwampThing

This Argument is retarded.


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## EndGame00

sidvicious said:


> i did boogie with a mark 3 or 4, can't recall, back in the 80's. it was a combo, combined 6l6/el34 power amp with all sorts of shit on it.
> 
> it was a great amp; i just could never really get into it and i tried hard. i will say that i detested the cleans. virtually unusable for a nice clean tone. i don't do much pedaling but i would say that the clean side was built for pedals. it was icepick through your head clean. ugh.
> 
> but mesa's are good amps and well made.
> 
> i haven't played mesa's in the last 20 years and the amps have drastically changed since my dance with them. i do like a lot of what i hear though. but, i'm not into much of the genre that mesa is associated with. otoh, andy simmons plays mesas. who woulda...?
> 
> i never jazzed over the scooped stuff.
> 
> i have a lot of amps. many more than on my sig.
> 
> i'll take my sl5 for marshall and my fuchs and everything else can stay on the shelf.


 
I think Mesa recommends EL-34 on the outside sockets and switch to simulclass if you are gonna run it with EL-34... I ran mine with 5881's before.


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## Cigarguy

allstar100595 said:


> Hi, I keep looking at posts for this answer, and everyone seems to avoid it. Everyone says, just listen to an album, just depends on what you like, try it out, etc. I want to know though, what IS the actual difference in tone, and why do YOU like one better than the other? I'm trying to gather some opinions here, thanks.


Hi gang! I'm new on this forum but I wanted to throw my useless two cents in. I have been a fan of great guitar tones for ever and one of my favorites is Gary Moore. (Classic Marshall and Les Paul tone.) I have worked to emulate that tone for years. I own a 2010 Dual Rec and it's extremely versital. I can get a great Marshall tone but you have to understand the tone stack system of the Mesa's. If you start by dropping all the bass and leaving the mid and treb at 12:00 then dial from there you can get extremely close. If you run the treb at 12:00 and the mid at roughly 1:00 then drop the bass to nearly zero you get that classic thick gushy marshall tone that you would hear on Still Got The Blues or even with a bit more gain Whitesnake's Slide It In. 

It seems counter intuitive to drop the bass but there is sooooo much bass in a Dual Rec that it can over power everything quickly. That seemed to become the modern tone and it's great for Dream Theater and other Bands like them. (Love them too). With the bass so low and a bit of a bump in the mid the tone thickens up and really sings. The other thing to watch out for is the amount of treble. Since all the tone controls are interactive and adjusting one effects the other you must keep in mind that the circuit goes in this order: gain, treb, mid, bass, presence. Because of this the treble is the most powerful next to the gain and can be piercing if there is too much. I use a bit of presence to push the sound forward instead of cranking the treble. 

I have read all the forums too and V man is right. We all use all these terms, bright, fizzy etc., and they can become hard to decipher. I think Marshall's have an easier eq system for people and that is why many love them so much. Boogie's are a great am as well but they take time to really get comfortable with. I think that so many great recordings have been made with Marshall's that it's why everyone wants that amp. They want that sound. Me too but I like the versatility of being able to play with other tones as well. The Boogie clean to me is much sweeter and more Fenderish than a marshall clean. Anyway, that was a lot of rambling hopefully it was helpful.


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## SonVolt

Cigarguy said:


> I think that so many great recordings have been made with Marshall's that it's why everyone wants that amp. They want that sound.




Keep in mind that only applies to the older players. Players under 40 are much more diverse may very well prefer the Orange tone or even Randall.


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## Cigarguy

I'm not sure about the versatility however, you are quite right. I played an Orange a while ago and thought it sounded great. I think the real problem is there are too many great amps and guitars and never enough money or time.


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## Jeff Hudson

My thoughts on Mesa, they do not produce midrange the same way a Marshall does. And that is the big difference for me. The only Mesa I plugged into and said "there it is" was the Road King. At the time I played it the price out the door was $3500 (In the early 90's) so I kept my 2205.


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## chiliphil1

The bottom, it's all about the bottom. The Marshall is like a knife and the mesa like a hammer. Both tools with their own uses but you may be surprised how close a recto can get on channel 2. 

It's best to have both if possible, they can compliment each other perfectly either in stereo or in a 2 guitar band.


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## mickeydg5

It is funny how equalization and processors, especially with an effects loop, can achieve pretty much anything.


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## ampmadscientist

Because of serviceability, I cannot stand Mesa Boogies.
It's just too much time and trouble to maintain. I really dislike the design, too difficult to access the parts on the circuit boards.

But, Mesa is (of course) a copy of a Fender or Marshall, with a bunch of switching circuits added in.
There is very little "originality" to it...

I can't see the need...all those extra gadgets on a Mesa (to me) seem ridiculous and excessive.
I don't need any of that stuff.
I just wanna play guitar...because of the simplicity of Marshall / Orange, it has much more appeal to me.

The arrogance of Mesa: all the claims about "superior technology..."
"I invented high gain amplification..." that's just outright bullshit.
That is just a bunch of Hype.
Personally I see nothing "superior," in a Mesa amp.

See This?






That is an actual photo of the PT transformer secondary wiring in a Mesa amp.
The amp is about 1-1/2 years old.
They used 235V wire, in a 600 volt circuit!
The insulation broke down, and is arcing between the wires.

*(to change that wire, you gotta replace the PT)*

Now - tell me how "superior" Mesa amps are...(?)(?)(?) I must have missed something.


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## SonVolt

ampmadscientist said:


> But, Mesa is (of course) a copy of a Fender or Marshall, with a bunch of switching circuits added in.
> There is very little "originality" to it...




Are you talking about originality of design or tone? Those are two very different things. I've never once bought an amp because I thought "Wow, this custom turbo charged flux-capacitor circuit is soOOOooo original!". The vast majority of musicians buy amps because they like the way they sound. Mesa's tone is original... you can't deny that. That tone defined the '90s (the last identifiable music decade) and became the industry standard for heavy music today. Marshall's high-gain circuits have been playing catch up ever since.


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## Vinsanitizer

Marshall = more mids, tight lows, musical sound
Mesa = less mids, gravelly lows, menacing sound


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## SonVolt

Vinsanitizer said:


> Marshall = more mids, tight lows, musical sound
> Mesa = less mids, gravelly lows, menacing sound




Tight Lows? Compared to Mesa?  Modern Metal = Mesa BECAUSE of the tighter/faster low-end.


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## slide222

well I have both and love both- I have the first 3, 1 watt heads and a 2x12 JTM60 combo with a matching JTM 2x12 extension cab
and I have a 1x12 5/50 mesa express combo and a matching wide body 1x12 extension cab


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## Coronado

chiliphil1 said:


> The bottom, it's all about the bottom. The Marshall is like a knife and the mesa like a hammer. Both tools with their own uses but you may be surprised how close a recto can get on channel 2.
> 
> It's best to have both if possible, they can compliment each other perfectly either in stereo or in a 2 guitar band.



Hell yeah!


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## Solid State

Marshalls react more organically. The way the string vibrates and the sound you're getting from the Marshall is natural sounding and even a bit raw. One of my friends has a Dual Rectifier and I've only played on it once and quite naturally we went straight to playing Metallica riffs on it. The amp sounds exactly like And Justice for All. I also played some Black Sabbath on it and it didn't sound like I was playing Black Sabbath at all. 

I know Mesas are capable of a whole lot more than what I think of them and if the bands I listen to used them, I'd probably vibe with them more. Imagine how a Marshall must sound to a Mesa fan!


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## Vinsanitizer

SonVolt said:


> Tight Lows? Compared to Mesa?  Modern Metal = Mesa BECAUSE of the tighter/faster low-end.


Mesa Rectifiers are flabby in the buttocks.
I've owned four of them, gigged them and recorded them, and that's my final answer.


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## Solid State

Yeah, that low end was what I was talking bout with my Sabbath not sounding like Sabbath. I always figured I'd just need to sit down and figure out how to dial it in. I was sad. I wanted to unleash the thunder of the gods and it was kind of like "MMMMUUUUMMMPPPHHH" I'm sure there are some pedal combinations that'd get it all to work.


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## Vinsanitizer

In fairness, I should follow up my comments by saying that I have a lot of respect for Mesa/Boogie. They make some of the best products on the planet in terms of quality and performance as far as I've seen, and I really enjoyed my Recto's during the years that I used them (non-exclusively). But in the end, I was always trying to make them sound more like a Marshall. So now when it comes time for _me_ to do _my_ thing, it has to be through a Marshall or at least an amp that sounds like a Marshall.


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## SonVolt

Vinsanitizer said:


> Mesa Rectifiers are flabby in the buttocks.




You must be really, really bad at EQ'ing amps. There's a bass knob, turn it down. Stick a mid-boost out front like everyone else on the planet.


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## Vinsanitizer

SonVolt said:


> You must be really, really bad at EQ'ing amps. There's a bass knob, turn it down. Stick a mid-boost out front like everyone else on the planet.



Did you, by any chance, happen to serve as an active contributing member of the Harmony Central Music Forums (Amplifiers forum, specifically) between 1999 and 2006, where Mesa vs. Marshall debates and "how to make a Recto sound like a Marshall" debates continued endlessly on a daily basis?


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## SonVolt

Vinsanitizer said:


> Did you, by any chance, happen to serve as an active contributing member of the Harmony Central Music Forums (Amplifiers forum, specifically) between 1999 and 2006, where Mesa vs. Marshall debates and "how to make a Recto sound like a Marshall" debates continued endlessly on a daily basis?




No, in 2006 I was too busy browsing MySpace for chicks.


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## mickeydg5

I like basses, mids and trebles. Learn how to set things up with your rig for maximum enjoyment and learn how to use that guitar neck. Not all chords are created equally. There is a reason for various octaves.

Saying that I want a rig that can handle anything I dish out.


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## ampmadscientist

To answer the question:

We have no measurement for "tone," or sound quality; so it's all subjective!
It's a matter of personal preference.

There is no machine that tells you: "this sound is good...this sound is bad...etc..."

So - go listen to a Boogie. And if you really like it, buy it.
Go listen to a Marshall...go listen to a Fender....
make your own choice, based on what you think is best.


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## ampmadscientist

SonVolt said:


> Are you talking about originality of design or tone? Those are two very different things. I've never once bought an amp because I thought "Wow, this custom turbo charged flux-capacitor circuit is soOOOooo original!". The vast majority of musicians buy amps because they like the way they sound. Mesa's tone is original... you can't deny that. That tone defined the '90s (the last identifiable music decade) and became the industry standard for heavy music today. Marshall's high-gain circuits have been playing catch up ever since.



*"Mesa's tone is original... you can't deny that."*

I deny that.
There is a difference between "tone," and "advertising hype."


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## chiliphil1

ampmadscientist said:


> *"Mesa's tone is original... you can't deny that."*
> 
> I deny that.
> There is a difference between "tone," and "advertising hype."



Haha, no. This is one time I am going to disagree with you. NOTHING sounds like a Mesa, that = originality.


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## ibmorjamn

Metal has been created from both amps and hell throw the 6505+ in there !
Classic rock was created before metal but it evolved and split in to different factions.
No wrong or right.
I am sure ampscientist has a point but I do think it would better made in clarifying circuit difference's Which Mesa Amp is that PT wire issue with ?
I do agree from building end of things simple is good.
Just for those of you who listen to metal my favorite demo :


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

You dial a Mesa to sound like a Marshall, it'll sound like ass.

You dial a Marshall to sound like a Mesa, it'll also sound like ass.

Both amps have different EQ placements. With a Mark series (at least most of them) or a Dual Recto, the EQ not only shapes the tone, but shapes the gain. If you put in too much bass and too little treble, it's gonna sound like a farty mess. If you do the opposite, tonal nirvana.


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## zachman

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You dial a Mesa to sound like a Marshall, it'll sound like ass.
> 
> You dial a Marshall to sound like a Mesa, it'll also sound like ass.
> 
> Both amps have different EQ placements. With a Mark series (at least most of them) or a Dual Recto, the EQ not only shapes the tone, but shapes the gain. If you put in too much bass and too little treble, it's gonna sound like a farty mess. If you do the opposite, tonal nirvana.



In my experience, this is mostly correct, however; I have a MKIII Simul-Class Coliseum that I bought new back in '86, and the R2 channel does a very convincing Marshall tone. It is the amp I used in the Journey tribute band for the intro to Lights/Stay Awhile, and my guitarist friends at the shows would always ask which Marshall I was using and how was it set-- for the tone (Using the big rig w/ 4 amp heads and a stereo power amp). They were all surprised to find out it wasn't a Marshall at all.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, I'm sure a Mark series will get close to a hot-rodded Marshall.

You're just gonna need some fun EQ settings.


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## zachman

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah, I'm sure a Mark series will get close to a hot-rodded Marshall.
> 
> You're just gonna need some fun EQ settings.



Not really. I would not alter my settings from my Lead channel.

"V" eq setting
Volume 1 10 Pulled
Treble 10 Pulled
Middle 3 (Pulled=R2 channel)
Bass 2 Pulled
Master 2 Pulled
Lead drive 6-10
Lead Master 10 Pulled
Presence 3

Used w/ Marshall 4x12 w/ G12-H30's


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## Solid State

A good amp isn't really a mysterious thing though. You put the EQ at noon across the board and play - it should sound pretty damn good.


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## zachman

Solid State said:


> A good amp isn't really a mysterious thing though. You put the EQ at noon across the board and play - it should sound pretty damn good.



Depends on the specific circuit. Could be passive eq, could be active, could be bi-amped, etc. and different rules apply


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## chiliphil1

Solid State said:


> A good amp isn't really a mysterious thing though. You put the EQ at noon across the board and play - it should sound pretty damn good.



That certainly doesn't hold true with Mesa/Boogie. Being able to set EQ to noon is not the measure of a good amp, it is the measure of an amp which makes 1 sound. You could add or take away from that sound, but that's about it. With Mesa amps there is no limit to what they can sound like. I think of it like this, with Marshall the owner has to like what the amp sounds like, with Mesa the owner can make it sound how they like. 

Believe me, nothing wrong with the 1 tone amps, the JCM800 is one of my very favorites but if I am doing anything other than straight up rock n roll, it wouldn't be my first choice.


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