# Friedman amps using Pcb?



## lespaul84

I thought these were turret ptp?


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## lespaul84

Another


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## lespaul84

Thoughts?


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## Guitar-Rocker

Not a turn off as far as tone, but different. Maybe a cost cutter?


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## aryasridhar

That is not a PCB, it is a turret board, with silk screening on top. That's about it.
However, even PCB's in general are very reliable and are important to build a consistent product.
I would go for a PCB based amp first, then a hand wired or PTP.
It is just in the head..


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## Frodebro

Most people associate PCBs with 'cheap' amps only, but those amps aren't cheap because of the circuit boards-they're cheap because they're designed to sell at a specific price point and use cheap components and boards, and often the layout is done by a computer instead of an actual amp designer/builder.


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## aryasridhar

Frodebro said:


> and often the layout is done by a computer instead of an actual amp designer/builder.



There are really expensive and great sounding amps that are made using PCB's. Also I disagree with your point here, computers do not design layouts or boards, they are just tools and human intervention (Design) is very much needed to get any board out for production.

If only computers could design layouts and boards and humans were not needed to design an amp or a pedal circuit, anyone could then make pedals or amps. Sorry, but what you said is not the right information.


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## Guitar-Rocker

aryasridhar said:


> That is not a PCB, it is a turret board, with silk screening on top. That's about it.
> However, even PCB's in general are very reliable and are important to build a consistent product.
> I would go for a PCB based amp first, then a hand wired or PTP.
> It is just in the head..



Hate to break it to you, but that's *not at all* a turretboard, it's clearly a pcb. Good, bad, or indifferent


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## wakjob

Um... what the hell Friedman amp is that?


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## Hogie34

Guitar rocker maybe you can answer this for me. I was looking at that board and even my uneducated self knew it was a pcb. However that being said, is the black "cover " over the board to hide the location of circuits so someone has a harder time stealing his ideas/designs? Forgive me if any of my wording is incorrect , I'm not an electronics guy lol.


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## biggs

Those boards look to be hybrids. Eyelet pcb's???


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## ampmadscientist

biggs said:


> Those boards look to be hybrids. Eyelet pcb's???


Yes eyelet PCBs.
Music Man did the same thing. It's fiberglass...
1/2 of the circuit cannot be accessed without pulling the board out.


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## biggs

Wow...Learn something new every day!


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## lespaul84

wakjob said:


> Um... what the hell Friedman amp is that?



Brand new friedman be100


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## NewReligion

Still looks to be the same circuit. Dave has indeed changed to loop. It appears to be based upon Georges Metro Zero loss and could be an updated version but he did use the Zero loss in the past. This can greatly affect the tone and feel of the amp as it operates off of the B+.

Cool PCB. As for me I am a twaeker and prefer PTP as I burn up traces too ofter.

Thanks for sharing Friedmans work with us lol. 

My $.02 David ♫


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## lespaul84

NewReligion said:


> Still looks to be the same circuit. Dave has indeed changed to loop. It appears to be based upon Georges Metro Zero loss and could be an updated version but he did use the Zero loss in the past. This can greatly affect the tone and feel of the amp as it operates off of the B+.
> 
> Cool PCB. As for me I am a twaeker and prefer PTP as I burn up traces too ofter.
> 
> Thanks for sharing Friedmans work with us lol.
> 
> My $.02 David ♫



Yea it's a great amp. I was just expecting a ptp bases on how it's sold as hand wired. Honestly I could care less if it was spaghetti in there as long as it sounds good.


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## keennay

Friedman's gone big man! 

You walk into Guitar Center and there are his products, which sell too.


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## Frodebro

lespaul84 said:


> Yea it's a great amp. I was just expecting a ptp bases on how it's sold as hand wired. Honestly I could care less if it was spaghetti in there as long as it sounds good.



Almost nobody uses actual point-to-point wiring anymore (meaning since the fifties or so), hand-wired typically means turret boards. Point-to-point is pretty messy to deal with, turret boards are nice and neat.


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## dptone5

Check this video out. Nick Johnston using the Friedman BE-100 with a Strat. Great tone and player here:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QQnFYici4Q&list=UURmm7T6mAm-QBNvnEaIl3AA]Even If It Takes A Lifetime - Playthrough - Nick Johnston - YouTube[/ame]

Can't stop listening to his Atomic Mind CD on YouTube.

DP


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## Alabama Thunderpussy

Those boards are way easier and faster to build amps with than the turret boards. I build both eyelet and PCB amps 5 days a week, and I can build 2-4 PCB amps in the time it takes to complete one eyelet board amp. It makes more sense from a production standpoint if the demand gets to a certain level, you move to PCB and price slightly lower, while still offering the full turret board version as a custom shop option at a higher price.


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## diesect20022000

DPTONE5 said:


> Check this video out. Nick Johnston using the Friedman BE-100 with a Strat. Great tone and player here:
> 
> Even If It Takes A Lifetime - Playthrough - Nick Johnston - YouTube
> 
> Can't stop listening to his Atomic Mind CD on YouTube.
> 
> DP



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tv7Hyz4hqm0

three minutes and thirty seconds in he pops up with these kids. I realize many people here may not love this stuff but I like this song and Nick's part is the best imho. he's a pretty down to earth cat too and yeah.....sick sick player.......

and at the BOTTOM here is JUST his guitar solo 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3zF5C5tzlI

but yeah Nick and Guthrie Govan are my new heros. Paul Gilbert is still up there too however (as far as guitarists guitar payers go I mean because a lot of my favorite composers are pianists.. like Chopin.....Beethoven of course as well....not a Mozart fan though really)


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## lespaul84

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> Those boards are way easier and faster to build amps with than the turret boards. I build both eyelet and PCB amps 5 days a week, and I can build 2-4 PCB amps in the time it takes to complete one eyelet board amp. It makes more sense from a production standpoint if the demand gets to a certain level, you move to PCB and price slightly lower, while still offering the full turret board version as a custom shop option at a higher price.



So being that the price point hasn't changed is this a lesser quality build for the same money or does it not really matter?


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## Ghostman

The quality will be in the actual manufacturing of the amp, not the use of PCB vs. Turret.


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## Alabama Thunderpussy

lespaul84 said:


> So being that the price point hasn't changed is this a lesser quality build for the same money or does it not really matter?



Build quality is not lessened, but the labor involved in building it is less, so less labor should be built into the price per unit. Profit increases from increased production. This is the perfect world, super honest route. Of course, in reality a company will seek to cut overhead in many cases to bolster profits in addition to increasing volume.


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## aryasridhar

Guitar-Rocker said:


> Hate to break it to you, but that's *not at all* a turretboard, it's clearly a pcb. Good, bad, or indifferent



This is NOT AT ALL a turret board? WOW......Here, please take a look at the images again. I have only highlighted the portions which are not seen on a true PCB, unlike what you said.








Why are the wires soldered the way they are?
I have taken the same images and highlighted the areas where these wires are soldered. 

A True PCB will have traces and pads to solder wires or anything, never do you find a PCB look like that. If OP can post some picture of the underside of this board, things will be much more clearer.

and if you still want to call this a PCB, please do...However, if this were to be called a PCB and *"not a turret board at all"*, then all those advantages talked about here about PCB's being faster to build and all that, Do NOT apply to this board at least.

Here's a very famous PCB used in Marshall amps, the ST-1 Board.




Can you make out the differences now? Look at the parts layout? Look at the traces? Pads are used to solder wires etc...Hope this helps!!!!!


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## Guitar-Rocker

If you look at the board, you can clearly see the pads at the bottom end of the board in the top photo (black & white wires), and the vertical radial caps are a dead give away. The same with the vertical cooling fin. There are no turrets or eyelets on that board. The difference in the two boards is the Marshall board is bottom solder pads only, the new boards have pads on the top side. This photo is a turretboard in an amp that was under construction:


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## Guitar-Rocker

If you look at the arrows in red, you can see what I was referring to. The vertical cap, the cooling fin, and the row of top side solder pads. In fact the pink arrow shows an un-soldered top pad.


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## aryasridhar

Guitar-Rocker said:


> If you look at the board, you can clearly see the pads at the bottom end of the board in the top photo (black & white wires), and the vertical radial caps are a dead give away. The same with the vertical cooling fin. There are no turrets or eyelets on that board. The difference in the two boards is the Marshall board is bottom solder pads only, the new boards have pads on the top side. This photo is a turretboard in an amp that was under construction:



So you mean a vertical capacitor and a heat sink on any board will make it a PCB by default? 
This is not a true PCB to any degree.
You may call it some sort of hybrid board (that replicates the looks of a turret/eyelet board **Just to please the ever purist/non constant mind of a guitarist**), but not true a PCB.
Some pads are "through hole" on this board (areas where 3 or more resistors are soldered). 

Eyelets based boards are also through hole. hence soldering can be done on any side of the board, that really does not make it a PCB again.

Also why are wires soldering on the components directly, if it were a PCB, there should be a pad, isn't it? PCB design goes by some rules!!!!

This board definitely is aiming at both pleasing the eyes and getting the job done somewhat quick at the same time!!!! This would still require more manual work to assemble, than if it were a true PCB.


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## Guitar-Rocker

You can call it whatever you'd like. Suhr uses the same type of boards, and John calls them PCB's. Those vertical radial caps do solder to a trace. There are no traces on my turretboards, but if I had the big bucks to pay someone to build me a boatload of those pcb's, I'd use those instead.

Reference:

High Quality PCB Amplifiers - Page 5 - The Gear Page


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## S9X

Speaking of hybrid pcb - turret trak is cool looking I guess... 

MATAMP S2000 30watt KT88 Amplifier - 2004

Good pcb with eyelets isn't bad idea at all, too. 
What gives pcb a bad rep is mostly crappy circuit layout, too thin copper traces (althougt there were many good amps using as thin as 18um copper back in the day) and a pcb material alone. (yep, FR4 vs let's say Rogers).


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## Crunchcity

Friedman is pumping out higher numbers of his amps these days...still hand wired but not meticulous...imo.


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## lespaul84

Vs this


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## lespaul84




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## aryasridhar

Crunchcity said:


> Friedman is pumping out higher numbers of his amps these days...still hand wired but not meticulous...imo.



Well, isn't that riding on goodwill all about? Most companies do just that...
Get a few hit products out there, then make whatever they feel like and not worry about what people have to say, even those who supported them by buying their stuff when they started out. Things go very quickly from passion to business point of view.

Since now its time to make money and more money.


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## Ed Hunter

as long as they keep sounding like this, i am a happy man!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41UuhEX-wcg]Friedman BE-100 100 Watt and 50 Watt version Brown Eye - YouTube[/ame]


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## Crunchcity

aryasridhar said:


> Well, isn't that riding on goodwill all about? Most companies do just that...
> Get a few hit products out there, then make whatever they feel like and not worry about what people have to say, even those who supported them by buying their stuff when they started out. Things go very quickly from passion to business point of view.
> 
> Since now its time to make money and more money.



Well yeah...he had to do it to keep up with demand. Mine sounded great but was clearly a "Friday afternoon special" so I punted it. 

Definitely didn't look like $3700 when I pulled the chassis. 

Friedman is taking steps to make the wiring more consistent in assembly so he is aware of the issue. And he does provide good customer service.

So I'm not bashing him or anything...and the amp did sound great.

He's just going through some growing pains...


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## lespaul84

Crunchcity said:


> Well yeah...he had to do it to keep up with demand. Mine sounded great but was clearly a "Friday afternoon special" so I punted it.
> 
> Definitely didn't look like $3700 when I pulled the chassis.
> 
> Friedman is taking steps to make the wiring more consistent in assembly so he is aware of the issue. And he does provide good customer service.
> 
> So I'm not bashing him or anything...and the amp did sound great.
> 
> He's just going through some growing pains...



It is a really nice sounding amp though. Just really surprised when I pulled the chassis. Still a lot going on under the hood and I'm guessing it's not an easy assembly.


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## rmroza

hey guys. sorry a little late to the game.

i see someone has some photos of a recent be-100! yeah, dave had already mentioned to me n in a thread i think he was going to go to a hybrid amp n eyelet board. also he said he was going to DC heaters n if memory serves me on the Smallbox! We'll see what the Cantrell has.

The amp sjould be basically the same design as the hand built, except for hybrid design, DC heaters n most recently changing PT to proprietary design from Magnetic Components.

He's making about 100 amps per month, so this design as indicated make manufacturing capacity increased, however you'd think the price would drop, but doesn't!

Nice to see he finally put a heatsink on the relay/dc heater voltage regulator.

Hope this helps.


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## lespaul84

rmroza said:


> hey guys. sorry a little late to the game.
> 
> i see someone has some photos of a recent be-100! yeah, dave had already mentioned to me n in a thread i think he was going to go to a hybrid amp n eyelet board. also he said he was going to DC heaters n if memory serves me on the Smallbox! We'll see what the Cantrell has.
> 
> The amp sjould be basically the same design as the hand built, except for hybrid design, DC heaters n most recently changing PT to proprietary design from Magnetic Components.
> 
> He's making about 100 amps per month, so this design as indicated make manufacturing capacity increased, however you'd think the price would drop, but doesn't
> Nice to see he finally put a heatsink on the relay/dc heater voltage regulator.
> 
> Hope this helps.



Cool thanks man. I guess I was just super stoked about getting a hw/turrett board amp n a lil thrown off when I pulled the chassis. All things said though it's such a good amp it doesn't matter.


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## lespaul84

So I'm guessing hybrid is all good?


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## aryasridhar

Crunchcity said:


> Well yeah...he had to do it to keep up with demand. Mine sounded great but was clearly a "Friday afternoon special" so I punted it.
> 
> Definitely didn't look like $3700 when I pulled the chassis.
> 
> Friedman is taking steps to make the wiring more consistent in assembly so he is aware of the issue. And he does provide good customer service.
> 
> So I'm not bashing him or anything...and the amp did sound great.
> 
> He's just going through some growing pains...



Yes Definitely not $3700' worth. I mean to really make it consistent he should go all out PCB or just leave it as it is (Turret Based), Hybrid neither saves much time nor money.


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## aryasridhar

rmroza said:


> hey guys. sorry a little late to the game.
> 
> i see someone has some photos of a recent be-100! yeah, dave had already mentioned to me n in a thread i think he was going to go to a hybrid amp n eyelet board. also he said he was going to DC heaters n if memory serves me on the Smallbox! We'll see what the Cantrell has.
> 
> The amp sjould be basically the same design as the hand built, except for hybrid design, DC heaters n most recently changing PT to proprietary design from Magnetic Components.
> 
> He's making about 100 amps per month, so this design as indicated make manufacturing capacity increased, however you'd think the price would drop, but doesn't!
> 
> Nice to see he finally put a heatsink on the relay/dc heater voltage regulator.
> 
> Hope this helps.



DC heaters is a very good idea, Fargen uses them on his amps. cuts down on the AC hum a lot, silent operation. I thought Freidman would have all that already


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## Alabama Thunderpussy

Selling an amplifier because it's not pretty enough inside? Wow...


Just wow.


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## aryasridhar

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> Selling an amplifier because it's not pretty enough inside? Wow...
> 
> 
> Just wow.



Its not about being pretty inside, the way it is built will decide on its reliability in the long run too. Would you like a car that is great from outside, but the wires are all over the place, running over the engine? (wires would melt off) and do you think it will be reliable in the long run?

Also keep in mind these amps are super expensive. when paying something close to 4k, it better be great inside out.

I love how these amps sound, friedman does a great job at that.


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## Crunchcity

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> Selling an amplifier because it's not pretty enough inside? Wow...
> 
> 
> Just wow.



Yes...my money is hard earned I care about attention to detail at a certain price point level.


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## d2_racing

And remember that PCB can be hard to service too. If the PCB use dual layer, one of top and the other on the bottom, it can be good.

But if it's a 3 layers setup, then good luck to repair something in the middle of the board.


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## lespaul84

Crunchcity said:


> Yes...my money is hard earned I care about attention to detail at a certain price point level.



I agree man. $3700 amp better be on point. No reason for sloppiness. 

Anybody seen the internal of the small box? Wonder how that's layed out?


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## rmroza

You guys hit on the the main items:

1. PCB v. handwired - turret/handwired is easier to work on desolder components, especially two-sided PCBs, etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of a hybrid or PCB amp.
2. DC Heaters is an improvement. No, the BE-100 didn't haven't it before. It was an elevated heater scheme. The new design uses a seggregated tap from the PT that is rectified and regulated and used for DC Heaters to the preamp tubes and for relay switching.
3. Price - The whole point of paying $3,700 is a good design and labor time to build by hand. If moving to a hybrid or PCB-based amp, the price should be lowered. I'd be pissed to pay the same amount and get an amp that could be produced faster and cheaper. The point is you're paying for labor time and at the rate of an electronic technician (which is not the same salary as a McDonald's worker).

I know Dave has capacity issues so he has/had ETI and/or 65 Amps building the amps for him and he'd just finalize, quality control and bias and ship. I think what Dave should do personally is lower the price of the hybrid and/or PCB based units and charge top dollar for HIS, hand-built amps. My $0.02.


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## SonVolt

rmroza said:


> 1. PCB v. handwired - turret/handwired is easier to work on desolder components, especially two-sided PCBs, etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of a hybrid or PCB amp.




It's also the #1 reason 2 identical amps can sound wildly different right? I'll take consistency over ease of repair.


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## d2_racing

rmroza said:


> I know Dave has capacity issues so he has/had ETI and/or 65 Amps building the amps for him and he'd just finalize, quality control and bias and ship. I think what Dave should do personally is lower the price of the hybrid and/or PCB based units and charge top dollar for HIS, hand-built amps. My $0.02.



Are we talking about Dan Boule from 65 amps ? I didn't know that 65 amps was a subcontractor for others boutique builder.


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## aryasridhar

SonVolt said:


> It's also the #1 reason 2 identical amps can sound wildly different right? I'll take consistency over ease of repair.



Yes, consistency changes a lot with turret or PTP amps. They never sound the same. 



rmroza said:


> You guys hit on the the main items:
> 
> 1. PCB v. handwired - turret/handwired is easier to work on desolder components, especially two-sided PCBs, etc. Personally, I don't like the idea of a hybrid or PCB amp.



Turret/Handwired and PCB's are easier to desolder..It is as easy to remove a component from a good PCB (considering the price one has to pay for these amps) as it does to remove a component from turret/handwired.

Amps are not sold cheaper just because they use PCB's in it. It is also the design that one has to sit down and work with that asks for the premium. Also extensive R&D is done and that costs money.
However, to be honest, In the Guitar Tube Amp Industry, considering that Guitar Tube Amp Technology is OLDER than DIRT. No one really works on something from scratch. Things are always taken from here and there, and are called their own.
We guitarists just fall for the fact that one calls it handwired or turret based or super high quality components, burned in and shit like that.

Lets face it, most of the so called stuff that they say they make in the UK or US. Raw materials, and other really important things are imported. There is no way any electronic component today is made without any imports to make the final product.

And the word called "HAND MADE" "HAND SELECTED" "HAND PICKED" is PURE bullshit to just ask for more money.
You have hands to work, and if you are saying that you are using the obvious (hands) and asking for more money, that just makes me feel, weren't hands made to ****ing work? why is there a special mention of sorts then? and people pay crazy money for anything that says Hand Made.....This is just beyond me.

Even though there are machines that do most modern electronics work, however, let me say it again, tube amp technology is super old and there are hardly machines and stuff available to a small time or even bigger manufacturers to get things done at a super fast pace.

Lets take Marshall for example, they use component placers to load their PCB's, but cannot do the same for Turret board based amps. Even on a PCB board, the boards are manually loaded onto the component placer, can they call it handmade? Just saying


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## wakjob

Whomever is assembling the Friedman amp line now, I can't see how it's any faster or easier to wire up that newer black board than the older red turret board style.

I don't know who wired mine, but it's top frickin' shelf IMO. 

Worth $3100 it cost? I leave that up to nut cases and internet conjecture.


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## Guitar-Rocker

aryasridhar said:


> Yes, consistency changes a lot with turret or PTP amps. They never sound the same.
> 
> 
> 
> Turret/Handwired and PCB's are easier to desolder..It is as easy to remove a component from a good PCB (considering the price one has to pay for these amps) as it does to remove a component from turret/handwired.
> 
> Amps are not sold cheaper just because they use PCB's in it. It is also the design that one has to sit down and work with that asks for the premium. Also extensive R&D is done and that costs money.
> However, to be honest, In the Guitar Tube Amp Industry, considering that Guitar Tube Amp Technology is OLDER than DIRT. No one really works on something from scratch. Things are always taken from here and there, and are called their own.
> We guitarists just fall for the fact that one calls it handwired or turret based or super high quality components, burned in and shit like that.
> 
> Lets face it, most of the so called stuff that they say they make in the UK or US. Raw materials, and other really important things are imported. There is no way any electronic component today is made without any imports to make the final product.
> 
> And the word called "HAND MADE" "HAND SELECTED" "HAND PICKED" is PURE bullshit to just ask for more money.
> You have hands to work, and if you are saying that you are using the obvious (hands) and asking for more money, that just makes me feel, weren't hands made to ****ing work? why is there a special mention of sorts then? and people pay crazy money for anything that says Hand Made.....This is just beyond me.
> 
> Even though there are machines that do most modern electronics work, however, let me say it again, tube amp technology is super old and there are hardly machines and stuff available to a small time or even bigger manufacturers to get things done at a super fast pace.
> 
> Lets take Marshall for example, they use component placers to load their PCB's, but cannot do the same for Turret board based amps. Even on a PCB board, the boards are manually loaded onto the component placer, can they call it handmade? Just saying





In the pureness of the sense as far as Handmade, Hand Selected, and Hand Picked...Handmade should mean Hand Assembled, drilled, fitted as in comparison to machine cast, whether loaded by hand in a machine to be machine made. Hand Selected should mean that someone took the time to test various component brands for tonal quality and quality of construction, rather than just buying the cheapest .022uF cap out there. Lastly Hand picked should mean someone hand tests every component for values before soldering them on the board, in comparison to reaching in a bag of parts and going for it. Now if they advertise they do that and don't, yup then it's BS ! I take the time to do all that.


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## aryasridhar

Guitar-Rocker said:


> In the pureness of the sense as far as Handmade, Hand Selected, and Hand Picked...Handmade should mean Hand Assembled, drilled, fitted as in comparison to machine cast, whether loaded by hand in a machine to be machine made. Hand Selected should mean that someone took the time to test various component brands for tonal quality and quality of construction, rather than just buying the cheapest .022uF cap out there. Lastly Hand picked should mean someone hand tests every component for values before soldering them on the board, in comparison to reaching in a bag of parts and going for it. Now if they advertise they do that and don't, yup then it's BS ! I take the time to do all that.



Exactly, if you take an example of probably the largest amp manufacturer of the world, Marshall Amplification. I am pretty sure they take random samples from their suppliers, test them once and rely totally on the supplier for the remaining lots to be just as consistent.

Also tubes are not matched or not specified to have a certain parameter to get through into Marshall.

On hand wired boards, they use regular resistors but have the vendor give it a look, as if it was vintage. Vendors don't care as long as they get an order for enough quantity. They would make whatever color etc Marshall needs.
Here in these videos Paul specifies just that, was an eye opener for me at least.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeerxAO3oRU]Unique Marshall Factory Tour as you have NEVER seen it before - tonymckenzie.com - YouTube[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhe7qXP08qw]Unique Marshall Factory Tour PART 2 as you have NEVER seen it before - tonymckenzie.com - YouTube[/ame]

I build effects pedals, everything from designing the PCB, etching the pcb, drilling enclosures, wiring, component testing, matching, testing, loading and soldering are all done by me alone, and by hand.
I only get the enclosures painted and printed elsewhere since I do not have the time or resources to do these two things, and more than anything I am not good at it.
I buy my resistors with a certain tolerance, capacitors from specific brands, switches I use are industrial quality, enclosures are built like tanks and so on...I am not trying to rave about my products, just saying...
At this point I make very few pedals so I can do all this, however even in the future I would not want to deviate from doing this, even if I have thousands of orders coming my way (Which would be really Awesome!!!!).

The sole reason for me to start building pedals was to beat the price. I do not claim to make original pedals, infact none can do that, since everything is inspired by something or the other. My aim is to give superb tone and quality at a really good price. and I would like to keep it that way.

Now to get some things done, one has to experiment, I did a lot, spent a lot, wasted a lot, however, today I know how to get a thing done.

Here are some pedals I have made.... also check out my page, if you care to give it a look - https://www.facebook.com/AryaPedals


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## Alabama Thunderpussy

aryasridhar said:


> Its not about being pretty inside, the way it is built will decide on its reliability in the long run too. Would you like a car that is great from outside, but the wires are all over the place, running over the engine? (wires would melt off) and do you think it will be reliable in the long run?
> 
> Also keep in mind these amps are super expensive. when paying something close to 4k, it better be great inside out.
> 
> I love how these amps sound, friedman does a great job at that.



Well now you're talking two different things. Reliability and aesthetics are not mutually inclusive. Although the amplifiers I build are meticulously constructed and look the part of their price tag, I personally could care less what the inside of my personal amplifier looked like so long as its quiet, there are no safety issues and solder joints are good.

And to that end you're more focused on owning amplifiers than using them for their intended purpose.


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## aryasridhar

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> Well now you're talking two different things. Reliability and aesthetics are not mutually inclusive. Although the amplifiers I build are meticulously constructed and look the part of their price tag, I personally could care less what the inside of my personal amplifier looked like so long as its quiet, there are no safety issues and solder joints are good.
> 
> And to that end you're more focused on owning amplifiers than using them for their intended purpose.



To me a work well done must reflect, inside out. Being someone who knows a thing or two about electronics, I would like to see stuff that is clean.

And No, I am not only focused on owning amps, I play them a lot. Record/Small Gigs, Practice, Mods etc.

Probably, if you said this to someone who has nothing to do with electronics, you may get away with it.


----------



## rmroza

Thanks Terry. You really spelled out the differences between labels such as hand wired.. Dave has streamlined things through the years as Ford or anyone else would to sclae things nd increase production...from hand drilled boadds, to standard boards and layout populated a certain way allof which decreases man hours and labortime. if still charging the same amount, equals more profit!

I personally believe a well designed PCB 3/32 thick n 2or 3 oz copper per meter squared is superior to turret and handbuilt boards. I however have not seen that in any amp builders designs since Terry Stinger (rest in peace). There may be tracing on Dave's new designs which help to prohibit reverse engineering n decrease labor time.. Whatever the reason n designs being the same, the cost should be less, but your not seeing it at the consumer level. I would prefer to havehis hand built amps n done bynhim if paying a premium.

Yes, he is outsourcing for the builds now him n Metropolous parted ways n ETI and possibly 65 amps I'm told n who he designed some amps for may be building.

As far as PCBs being the same to work on as turretor what not, that is not true especially if two sided boards. u try to desolder one side n theother side acfs like a heatsink n pools n can be much harder to work on. Thus, say someone needs a cap replacement n withoutpulling the board, a tech may decide its much faster n easier to cut the leads from the cap farthest from the solder pad n leave length n solder the newcomponent leads to this.. Trust me. I've done enough soldering n working on various boards in my 20 years in engineering n electronics.

We'll see how the Cantrell n Phil X work out, but Dave suggssted these new layout n what not. i wonder n hope he fixed the popping issue with the hbe channel switching (let usknow with this new be-100), but to me it was horrible n not acceptable to my standards in previous models.


----------



## Adamclayton

aryasridhar said:


> Well, isn't that riding on goodwill all about? Most companies do just that...
> Get a few hit products out there, then make whatever they feel like and not worry about what people have to say, even those who supported them by buying their stuff when they started out. Things go very quickly from passion to business point of view.
> 
> Since now its time to make money and more money.



No offense but you obviously don't know Dave Friedman very well if you think that. Dave just doesn't make "whatever", he makes some of the best amps in the world as far as build and tone, and if your haven't played any I'd suggest it. Going from the black "hybrid" board is about the only component change he's made in a long time besides making the amp better do to many customer suggestions. Many wanted one input for both channels.... he did it. Many wanted a full clean channel instead of simple clean Ch.... He redesigned it once again. Having all these options and mods that so many have asked for it would make a "true" torrent board almost twice as long as the black hybrid board he's using now. Really glad he put a heat-sink in there too. 

Of course business is business, but there are SO many high priced amps that use lesser grade components than Friedman amps. He's building amps that are NOT easy to build and that IMHO "consistent" tones that sound exactly like the older Brown Eyes are his goal, and with the popularity he's acquired now I'm surprised he hasn't cut corners with cheaper parts since Friedmans are extremely sought after now seems like, but he really hasn't except in labor time with the hybrid boards. They still use Mercury Magnetics Tone Clone chokes, a custom Magnetic Components power transformer, and always a Heyboer output transformer.









Dave Friedmans mark on the chassis. Not sure what the "W" stands for (maybe wall voltage) next to the 120V.


----------



## Alabama Thunderpussy

aryasridhar said:


> To me a work well done must reflect, inside out. Being someone who knows a thing or two about electronics, I would like to see stuff that is clean.
> 
> And No, I am not only focused on owning amps, I play them a lot. Record/Small Gigs, Practice, Mods etc.
> 
> Probably, if you said this to someone who has nothing to do with electronics, you may get away with it.



Lol! What exactly are you *not* letting me "get away with"?

So you build a few pedals and suddenly you know amplifier construction better than most, is that what I'm supposed to take away from all this?


----------



## diesect20022000

Just a heads up. Alabama knows more about amps than most people here COMBINED. Do what you will with that knowledge....

(Guitar Rocker) builds some very nice amps too. I've had the privilege to play one that was a 59 tmb type build but (now I can't recall 18 or 36 watt but I believe 18) and it was pretty intense. compression was all I needed for lower volume playing and it crunched up great, perfect recorded tone without problems mic'd up.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

I sure don't see any snotty work in that amp. Tidy, straight forward enough. For the record, if I could no longer work on my own amps and needed an amp repaired, Alabama would be welcome any day to service one that I owned.


----------



## Crunchcity

diesect20022000 said:


> Just a heads up. Alabama knows more about amps than most people here COMBINED. Do what you will with that knowledge....



His technical knowledge has no bearing on how I choose to spend my money. 

He's entitled to his opinion and can buy whatever he wants, it's none of my business. 

I'm not telling anyone else how to spend their $3700 or whether they personally think it's worth it or not that's their business. 

And I did say it sounded great and he provided great customer service.


----------



## aryasridhar

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> Lol! What exactly are you *not* letting me "get away with"?
> 
> So you build a few pedals and suddenly you know amplifier construction better than most, is that what I'm supposed to take away from all this?



Exactly my point Alabama, Thank You for making it clear. So you build amps and since you have made many amps, You call yourself someone who knows a ton about building amps and can never go wrong? and can just about throw around your opinion at others..

Quoting You *"Selling an amplifier because it's not pretty enough inside? Wow..."* - This is *YOUR *opinion. Does not mean everyone has to be in agreement with it.

Also where in my post did I mention I know more than most in amp construction? 

Oh No did i scratch someones ego here? how dare I say anything to offend an amp guru, Amp construction is Parallel to rocket science, so the people who build tube amps (super innovators) can let others know by building tube amps that are mostly clones (with their MAJOR design changes) "PUN Intended" and "get away with" anything they say about anything else.

Also, I shall get a Friedman some day, but then, the point was never about Friedman or any other amp manufacturer, it was about that board and one thing led to another.


----------



## lespaul84

Yea I didn't start this as a bash thread or a is it worth $3700 thread. I was just wondering what you thought of the board and build quality. It's def a great amp. Somebody had asked if there is a pop when switching channels the answer is no. There is no pop. Only complaint is that you def need a noise gate but I haven't played a high gain amp marshall type amp that you don't.


----------



## lespaul84

Also would love to know how the smallbox is built if a body knows?


----------



## SonVolt

Can't we all just agree that the Friedman BE-100 is an awesome amp that produces the tone that Marshal _should _be producing in their modern amps?


----------



## keennay

SonVolt said:


> Can't we all just agree that the Friedman BE-100 is an awesome amp that produces the tone that Marshal _should _be producing in their modern amps?



This.

Almost everytime someone asks, "I'm looking for a versatile amp with a boosted Plexi/JCM tone," I want to recommend either a BE-100 or Smallbox... but then I remember how costly they are & say fvck it, just get a Rockitt Retro instead. 

But no... the amps people want absolutely have to read 'Marshall' on the front, or else they're considered trash.


----------



## rmroza

"I was just wondering what you thought of the board and build quality."
It's fine IMHO. After reading back to some responses from Dave, the board is a PCB with eyelet hybrid. It is a PCB board thou now with traces. I see the stand up 1k/5w wirewounds with two pins that would be soldered to the other side of the board.

"Can't we all just agree that the Friedman BE-100 is an awesome amp"
Yes, it is a good sounding design and although Dave suggests he thinks it has nothing to do with being like a "Jose" amp...it's absolutely based around Jose's dirty design with voltage divider, voicing, zener clipping, etc! So, of course it's a proven base and going to sound good! Jose was the man!! Dave did come up with his own variation and a good design.

"Going from the black "hybrid" board is about the only component change he's made in a long time"
NO, not really! Actually, there has been more than one change/correction recently and over time! A couple of them include poorly designed power transformers than hummed like a bitch and got hot! There are quite a bit out there and Dave will warranty them and swap them out, but you're gonna have to pay transportation both ways. Likewise, there has been the change to DC Heaters after he asked what could be better and advised him accordingly. Lastly, the channel switching has been horrible IMHO for BE to HBE adding an additional tube to the front end that causes a "popping". I don't know if this has even been rectified in the most recent amps (we're talking within the last 6 month or less), but is and has been there and although minimized with 1M or 10M resistor, still existed and needed a redesign!

"Also would love to know how the smallbox is built if a body knows?"
The smallbox is using the new board and layout style. Dave comment the following: "The 12 v dc heaters is a regulater supply it also powers the relays. The new board is a circuit board / handwire hybrid. Very thick board material with some traces for things like relays and regulators etc. The rest is plated through pads done like eyelets. Cleaner layout and wiring scheme. There is a 13 volt 1 amp secondary for the channel switching/ dc heaters. I like a separate supply for relays and such. Cuts down on noise and is more reliable in low line voltage situations. So this is a whole new board. Small box is done the same way."

"Can't we all just agree that the Friedman BE-100 is an awesome amp that produces the tone that Marshal should be producing in their modern amps?"
Again, see above. Yes, good and some of the best Hot-Rodded Marshall tone I've heard and versatile...but with issues. I know a lot of people bitch about the price also, but based on the amount of labor at a true technician rate and components, I crunched the numbers and BOM and basically is should sell at exactly what Dave is selling it at $3,700! Sorry if you don't have the $$$ or don't like it, but it is what it is and appropriate. If anyone builds and sells the same thing for less, you're getting what you pay for and a tattoo artist or student building and not by a professional building it, or they are selling it to you at a discount and disservice to themselves.


----------



## Crunchcity

I ordered another BE 100 today, I want to check out the new build myself. 

I never had a complaint about the sound, so I'm kind of excited to get one again.


----------



## MorePaul

the BE100 sounds pretty freekin good ....
I also like the Steve Stevens Friedman amp..

that tight bottom with the searing top end is just delicious...

anyway I can MOD my TSL to sound like that?


----------



## MorePaul

Crunchcity said:


> I ordered another BE 100 today, I want to check out the new build myself.
> 
> I never had a complaint about the sound, so I'm kind of excited to get another one.



another one?

give one to me please? I'll take good care of it, I promise


----------



## Crunchcity

MorePaul said:


> another one?
> 
> give one to me please? I'll take good care of it, I promise



The first one I had is gone I'm Friedman-less at the moment.

My main amp right now is my trusty 2204.


----------



## SonVolt

Who buys a Friedman, sells it, then buys another one? I just want one please.


----------



## Alabama Thunderpussy

aryasridhar said:


> Exactly my point Alabama, Thank You for making it clear. So you build amps and since you have made many amps, You call yourself someone who knows a ton about building amps and can never go wrong? and can just about throw around your opinion at others..
> 
> Quoting You *"Selling an amplifier because it's not pretty enough inside? Wow..."* - This is *YOUR *opinion. Does not mean everyone has to be in agreement with it.
> 
> Also where in my post did I mention I know more than most in amp construction?
> 
> Oh No did i scratch someones ego here? how dare I say anything to offend an amp guru, Amp construction is Parallel to rocket science, so the people who build tube amps (super innovators) can let others know by building tube amps that are mostly clones (with their MAJOR design changes) "PUN Intended" and "get away with" anything they say about anything else.
> 
> Also, I shall get a Friedman some day, but then, the point was never about Friedman or any other amp manufacturer, it was about that board and one thing led to another.



You give yourself far too much credit to think you are important or intelligent enough to affect my ego or mood. 

If amp building were as easy as you claim, you wouldn't be talkin about buying a Friedman.


----------



## aryasridhar

Alabama Thunderpussy said:


> You give yourself far too much credit to think you are important or intelligent enough to affect my ego or mood.
> 
> If amp building were as easy as you claim, you wouldn't be talkin about buying a Friedman.



Are those the only 2 things you picked up from all that I wrote there?

So those who know amp building and are very good at it (very tough) never buy amps from other manufacturers?

I thought the largest amp manufacturer today (Dr Jim Marshall - RIP) got his hands on a Bassman, and it all started there. So did he not know what he was doing? knew nothing about amps? Since you said I would not talk about buying a Friedman I had to give an example.....I am however, in no way will ever ever ever get 0.0001% close to the knowledge that man had. Just saying.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

Ummm, actually Jim had 2 techs do all his work. He was just the means to effect the change ( not wanting to get in the middle of the discussion though )


----------



## MorePaul

> then I remember how costly they are & say fvck it, just get a Rockitt Retro instead.



hmmm interesting RR 50 for $1200
1987x clone

sound clips are nice....

hmmmm


----------



## rmroza

"hmmm interesting RR 50 for $1200" I'm sure you get what you pay for. Seems like just a mojo kit with over the counter transformers. With those carbon comp resistors with varying reistance levels, I'm sure probably sounds like poop! lol

I thought the topic was Friedman and PCBs?!??


----------



## aryasridhar

rmroza said:


> "hmmm interesting RR 50 for $1200" I'm sure you get what you pay for. Seems like just a mojo kit with over the counter transformers. With those carbon comp resistors with varying reistance levels, I'm sure probably sounds like poop! lol
> 
> I thought the topic was Friedman and PCBs?!??



These look like good value for money. Even the older amps were built with whatever was available during that time. So I guess nothing wrong with that, given the price point. I guess Ceriatone stuff may be a little better.

and they certainly sound really sweet.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvzOfBxgpqk


----------



## rmroza

Friedman JJ Cantrell is starting to ship now. The date moved out from 11/7 to 12/5, but just in the past week moved from 11/15 to 11/17 and some guys on another forum are starting to chime in. I have one on order to beat the hell out of as almost no one around me carries them. I can let you know my thoughts when I get it. They'll probably be shipping out next week and in folks hands by next weekend.


----------



## Ghostman

rmroza said:


> Friedman JJ Cantrell is starting to ship now. The date moved out from 11/7 to 12/5, but just in the past week moved from 11/15 to 11/17 and some guys on another forum are starting to chime in. I have one on order to beat the hell out of as almost no one around me carries them. I can let you know know my thoughts when I get it. They'll probably be shipping out next week and in folks hands by next weekend.



I know I'll be waiting for your review.


----------



## rmroza

Friedman Cantrell is out for delivery right now and i will have for the weekend to beat the hell out of and check out!!


----------



## rmroza

Ok, just got done playing around with it for about an hour and here are my impressions:

1. The amp is dead quiet when not playing. After 3 Friedman's, Dave finally fixed this and probably through DC heaters and new and newly designed power transformer.
2. The switching finally appears to have been fixed and no "popping" anymore.
3. The regular dirty (JBE mode NOT engaged) has that traditional "Hot-Rodded Marshall" tone. 
4. The Cantrell (JBE Mode) is all there. It engages the zener clamp and may change the voicing. Scoop out the MIDs and I was playing "Them Bones" in Drop-D like the album
5. The clean sounds nice and bright cap values is very nice. The only issue that I found with the amp/design was with the clean. When the Bass is cranked to 9 to 10, it starts dropping out the highs! Probably part of the design and I don't know why anyone would turn the bass that high, but wanted to point out the flaw.

In summary, it does what it's supposed to do and the flaws from previous generations of Friedman's has finally been rectified. Nice design. I'll have to pop the top and see what's under the hood.


----------



## Crunchcity

Nice review, it would be interesting to see a gut shot if you happen to pull the chassis.


----------



## rmroza

i'll post it in a couple. taking voltages n specs on the new choke used n what not. it's tighter or looser than the be-100 and with the DC heaters keeping it absolutely dead quiet n switch popping finally resolved...it's better than the be-100.


----------



## lespaul84

rmroza said:


> i'll post it in a couple. taking voltages n specs on the new choke used n what not. it's tighter or looser than the be-100 and with the DC heaters keeping it absolutely dead quiet n switch popping finally resolved...it's better than the be-100.



Look forward to seeing the gut shots. My be 100 has no popping or noise though. Glad you like the amp. Is it straight metal or has some good cranked plexi sounds as well?


----------



## rmroza

You must have the latest with PCB v.2 board in it and updated power transformer. That's why. Every BE-100 before this new layout has PT/hum and popping issues!

Yes, ALL of Dave's designs (BE-100, Stevens, Cantrell, and soon to be released Phil X) are just slight variations of the "base" BE-100 design. Depending on the model, there are some slight changes to voicing and voltage divider, cathode bias point, DC heaters, elevated heaters, simple clean, TMB clean, resonance changes, extra PT taps and virtual variac mode. Soo, they are all close.

In the Cantrell, I personally like it better than the BE-100. Yes, you can ge the cranked Plexi tone out of it and I like it better. It's more defined and tighter I think. whatever it is, I like it. Attached are some photos for review.


----------



## Crunchcity

rmroza said:


> You must have the latest with PCB v.2 board in it and updated power transformer. That's why. Every BE-100 before this new layout has PT/hum and popping issues!



Thanks for posting the chassis pics! Very interesting that there is a PCB v.2 board, was there a PCB v.1 board released before it or are you referring to the older eyelet board style build. If there was a hybrid PCB v.1 board, it would be interesting to find out how to differentiate the different version hybrid eyelet boards...


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

Those 1/4" fender washers (look like boo-boo washers) on the PT bolts look substandard. Why didn't he use the typical transformer strap brackets instead?


----------



## rmroza

I don't know why it's labeled version 2. Either because the original was the eyelet and this is revision 2 or he went through two iteration of the board. As far as I am aware, there has been no other PCB board to the market, so just the original eyelet and this one.

Yeah Terry, the washers look a little stupid especially with how nice the layout and wiring is. It looks like the length of the wire is a know factor (CAD) and pre-assembly has the board populated with wire, then once mounted, wires just hooked up (this can help minimize time with assembly). The wires are soldered to the under-side as seen.

Ok, off to take some measurements.


----------



## Crunchcity

rmroza said:


> I don't know why it's labeled version 2. Either because the original was the eyelet and this is revision 2 or he went through two iteration of the board. As far as I am aware, there has been no other PCB board to the market, so just the original eyelet and this one.
> 
> Yeah Terry, the washers look a little stupid especially with how nice the layout and wiring is. It looks like the length of the wire is a know factor (CAD) and pre-assembly has the board populated with wire, then once mounted, wires just hooked up (this can help minimize time with assembly). The wires are soldered to the under-side as seen.
> 
> Ok, off to take some measurements.



Thanks. 

My old BE had the washers as well, I assumed it was to reinforce the bracket tabs underneath...


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

They do re-enforce the mounting feet, but why not use something like these, if you're producing a high quality amp like the Friedman? I'm not saying that these will fit the PT on this amp as I don't know what exact PT was used, but they are available from ClassicTone, or develop your own type. The 40-17452 I think indicates a ClassicTone custom wound, as all other standard ClassicTones are 18xxx series numbers. These brackets below do fit the ClassicTone PT for 100w Marshall amps. Granted the brackets sell for $13.25, versus the cost of four 1/4" fender washers, but hey look at the overall cost on the amp.


----------



## Crunchcity

Guitar-Rocker said:


> They do re-enforce the mounting feet, but why not use something like these, if you're producing a high quality amp like the Friedman? I'm not saying that these will fit the PT on this amp as I don't know what exact PT was used, but they are available from ClassicTone, or develop your own type. The 40-17452 I think indicates a ClassicTone custom wound, as all other standard ClassicTones are 18xxx series numbers. These brackets below do fit the ClassicTone PT for 100w Marshall amps. Granted the brackets sell for $13.25, versus the cost of four 1/4" fender washers, but hey look at the overall cost on the amp.



I agree, those old school mounting cleats were great.

Bogner also had a good solution on the Uberschall model's OT, they just spec'ed the tabs with thicker metal...


----------



## Adamclayton

The new OT transformers are custom wound Classic Tone and the output transformers are always Heyboer transformers. The new V2 black boards are hybrid eyelet-pcb boards.


----------



## rmroza

I don't see ANY eyelets on the board. All of the pads are the same I.D. and O.D. The amp is a hybrid as some hand wiring, but the board is 100% PCB. I know Dave is doing like 60-100 amps a month and dealing with capacity to support it, but personally, if I'm paying $3,700 and the same price as one of the old one's, it should be compleyely handwired and preferably on turrets. I would have expected this amp for $1000 less to accomodate the less wiring and switcheds and PCB so higher capacity and faster throughput time. I see on other forum and customers direct from King Guitars or Tone Merchant actually at least received a badge on the back signed by Jerry. Maybe that would help with the cost premium, but this one doesn't have that badge. Likewise, there has no mention of limited quantity EXCEPT on the signed one's (and no menton how many are signed by Jerry), so how will they hold value?? Good tone and design, but not worth the $$$. My latest one (see Dimebag Memorial Amp - suggested name) crushes this one. If you presented both to me and said you could pick one and only one, I would choose mine in a heartbeat! I know it's me saying it, but it sounds significantly better IMHO (if you don't believe, check out the clips). Yes, PT and choke are Magnetic Component customs. OT is produced by Heyboer and similar to Metro 100w.


----------



## Crunchcity

Interesting!


----------



## Adamclayton

rmroza said:


> I don't see ANY eyelets on the board. All of the pads are the same I.D. and O.D. The amp is a hybrid as some hand wiring, but the board is 100% PCB. I know Dave is doing like 60-100 amps a month and dealing with capacity to support it, but personally, if I'm paying $3,700 and the same price as one of the old one's, it should be compleyely handwired and preferably on turrets. I would have expected this amp for $1000 less to accomodate the less wiring and switcheds and PCB so higher capacity and faster throughput time. I see on other forum and customers direct from King Guitars or Tone Merchant actually at least received a badge on the back signed by Jerry. Maybe that would help with the cost premium, but this one doesn't have that badge. Likewise, there has no mention of limited quantity EXCEPT on the signed one's (and no menton how many are signed by Jerry), so how will they hold value?? Good tone and design, but not worth the $$$. My latest one (see Dimebag Memorial Amp - suggested name) crushes this one. If you presented both to me and said you could pick one and only one, I would choose mine in a heartbeat! I know it's me saying it, but it sounds significantly better IMHO (if you don't believe, check out the clips). Yes, PT and choke are Magnatic Component customer. OT is also, but based on Metro 100w and poduced by Heyboer.



If you can't see them couple unsoldered holes on the edge of the board then look again... those are called Eyelets my friend. Not 100% eyelet, not 100% PCP. Dave has announced that the new v2 boards are hybrids. PCP boards have traces all over them, so call the board what you want too if it makes you less frustrated. The chokes are Mercery Magnetics, OT is Heyboer, and PT is a custom made Classic Tone (Magnetic Components). Just to name a few amps around the same price and higher, amps that use straight up 100% PCB is Fuchs, Tone King, Soldano, Suhr, Bognert and Diezel.

And not sure why it matters so much to you about whats going on at the Friedman camp. Do they sound killer? and Is is built well?.... Those are the question you need to be more concerned about when buying an amp, not how pretty the inside of the amp looks. Anyway, amp companies change components all the time, but I'm not going to be a cork sniffer about other companies doing something I don't like cause it's not my company, and we can only guess as to why they make any changes to their product.

The Dimebag amo?.. And all this talk your talking about "My Dimebag amp CRUSHES a Friedman Brown Eye" "If you don't believe me check out some clips"...No thanks, I've played the Dimebag amp, It's pure metal, and if I played only metal it would be maybe a decent gigging amp. Also, if your judging on what 2 amps are best by internet clips then your going go through amp after amp. You need to "feel" the amp while playing it in person. Just go play some of the new Friedmans with the full clean and 3 front switches like the black boards shows in this thread. I've can't say I've meet anyone that didn't get blown away by a Friedman, old and new, but if we all had the same ears and played the same amps then music today would be boring. The new BE100 is truely the best amp I've every played and I've owned several dozen boutiqe torrent board hand-wired amps. Friedman knows what he's doing, if you have a concern or question just email him at Tone Merchants. 

Check this clip out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzs3CzqGni8&index=113&list=PLowfyZunUxne_dkax5HQb2oGXLCCtrfax

Pete Thorn AB'ing the BE100 and the PT100... love the Suhr's also. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE7PwGYAHW0&index=114&list=PLowfyZunUxne_dkax5HQb2oGXLCCtrfax

If you want google "eyelet boards" and see how many look like the Friedmans. There are even a few black ones that look similar to the BE100. Here I'll let you look for yourself... https://www.google.com/search?q=Eye...a=X&ei=bORyVJq0JdStyATX94HwBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg


----------



## Crunchcity

Adamclayton said:


> The Dimebag amo?.. And all this talk your talking about "My Dimebag amp CRUSHES a Friedman Brown Eye" "If you don't believe me check out some clips"...No thanks, I've played the Dimebag



I think he was referring to an amp he built and called it the Dimebag tribute model.

Materials and labor aren't the only factors in the final pricing of a product. 

Friedman's sell for what they do because that is what the market will bear due to demand/market presence/brand reputation/etc..

If you are looking at the amp strictly with materials/labor cost in mind, it would definitely seem overpriced imo. 

There are cheaper amps on the market with more hand work involved.


----------



## rmroza

Thanks Crunchcity, exactly (refrring to mine latest). Understood about the market and pricing also. It's up to the consumer if they wanted the Cantrell and strictly for tone or wanted a turret/eyelet board type and completely handwired. I know personally, as I said, I would be looking for a discount if made with PCB and rapid process. I have completely handwired and PCB amps. I personally do not charge the same for both. The PCBs are significantly cheaper.

Adamclayton is a noob, but good lord, you are incorrect about three things just above, so some folks might want to just disregard your comments.

The Cantrell amp choke is NOT a Mercury Magnetics. It is a Magnetic Components.
The PCB is NOT an eyelet or hybrid partial eyelet. I have the ****ing amp in front of me and can post more photos if applicable. It IS a PCB and with traces (one trace on the top side is cut from Friedman, fyi

Finally, yes, you have NOT played "my" Dimebag Memorial Amp. I just made it and the guy was playing it at a gig yesterday! lol

Please get your facts right. Thank you.


----------



## Adamclayton

So your saying Dave Friedman is straight lying??? Dave said to the world it's a Hybrid board, and your your saying it's not hybrid and your wrong.... I give up with ya man. Go to Rig Talk-Friedman Forums. Im new to this forum not tube amps. My BE100 has a Mercury Magnetics Tone Clone Choke. Maybe you should "confirm" my info on the Rack Systems sub-forum of RigTalk. Lastly I have no clue why you thought I was referring to the Cantrell. Ask Dave if the board is 100% PCB and let me know what he says cause it's not 100% PCB. I rest my case man. Check out the RigTalk if you don't believe me.

Like it or not, these are the new Brown Eyes since May 5th 2014. And itsn't like 95% of all Marshalls since 2002 made of PCB? Anyway whatever your saying is contradicting Dave Friedmans words on RigTalk, so leave it be and check the info, it's legit man. On with the day.


----------



## Crunchcity

Yeah those close up pics don't look like eyelets, just solder pads. I wonder if Friedman will make a correction that it's not a hybrid board.

Or maybe there are some eyelets in key places like where the caps are? It doesn't appear to be that way though.

The presence of eyelets is what would make it a hybrid board I believe, and without them it's not really a hybrid.


----------



## Adamclayton

Crunchcity said:


> Yeah those close up pics don't look like eyelets, just solder pads. I wonder if Friedman will make a correction that it's not a hybrid board.
> 
> Or maybe there are some eyelets in key places like where the caps are? It doesn't appear to be that way though.
> 
> The presence of eyelets is what would make it a hybrid board I believe, and without them it's not really a hybrid.



Well, this announcement isn't my words. David Friedman is one of the most humble honest, and extremely talented amp makers out there and I've never known him to lie so, Im just going off what the big man is saying. That close up isn't a BE100. If it is it's missing a few components.


----------



## Crunchcity

Adamclayton said:


> Well, this announcement isn't my words.



Do you have a link to his announcement? I'm just curious what he said... 



Adamclayton said:


> That close up isn't a BE100. If it is it's missing a few components.



It's the Cantrell model.


----------



## Adamclayton

Crunchcity said:


> Do you have a link to his announcement? I'm just curious what he said...
> 
> 
> 
> It's the Cantrell model.



Well I googled it, searched it on RigTalk but can't find it and dont have long. I promise dude I'm not lying about what Friedman says though. It wasn't a thread, just a comment about the changed of his new amps. I'll post later, but you can call them and ask if they are hybrid boards and they will say yes, cause they are proprietary boards. Now exactly how I have no clue. All I know is whats been said by Dave and how killer the amp sounds. Going to jam tonight and the amps so versatile in my cover band that all my band mates are saying it's the best sounding amp I've had so far, and I've been through a few.


----------



## rmroza

Yes, the one I'm showing is the latest "Cantrell" model. I have had two other BE-100's over the years, but they were the old red board and eyelets. The Cantrell board uses the exact same PCB as the BE-100. Then, it's just populated appropriately and wire up for that model! I would have done the same thing, but provided turret completely handwired for the premium models and PCB for the lower line personally.

I know what Adamclayton is referring to and previously seen the comments from Dave on other threads. "The new board is a circuit board / handwire hybrid. Very thick board material with sone traces for things like relays and regulators etc. The rest is plated through pads done like eyelets." I missed it myself and was expecting eyelets. I see now he says "like" eyelets. There is none. This is 100% PCB as should be the BE-100, and Smallbox currently!!

Dave has "handwired" all over the box, manual, etc. I think this is misleading. Maybe it could be considered handwired by definition (I don't know) and like the post and everything are not wired directly on the PCB as the 1k/5W resistors and relays are, but I think it's disingenuous. When I see handwired, I think no PCB and some doing all the work by hand and labor intensive and so preium cost. That's not the case here. Sorry, turning me off thou. It would have been better if he would have communicated straight up...all new models are PCB, 3g/mm2 of copper hybrid and wiring and parts pacement and soldering are hand done. Sorry, it just irks me and even Adamclayton was convinced, no this is not PCB, but eyelet, etc., so that just reinforces the fact. ...just sayin.


----------



## aryasridhar

That board is made to look like a turret board, maybe to appear good to the eye. But surely the price should go down, or maybe Dave has a good reason for not reducing the price, other than that it should be less than a hand made one.

But looking at that board, If i were to work on it, there will be a good amount of manual work to do, than on a "TRUE" PCB.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

True PCB's are in general thought of a printed circuit board, components stuffed and "wave" soldered. Looks hybrid to me


----------



## aryasridhar

I feel some of these terms "Hand Made" "Hand Wired" "Hand picked" "Custom" "Vintage Original Spec" etc etc etc are given too much of an importance these days, I wonder if guitarists who started off as early guitar tube amps were in production ever cared for such terms or reeled over such terms before choosing amps or even guitars.


----------



## charveldan

Marshall JMP's have been PCB since 1975 and counting.

Dave metioned the new boards over a year ago.

Unless someone is holding a gun to ur head to buy a FRIEDMAN u have the choice to do what you want.

Instead of playing amps, sound like the OP is stirring the pot for character assassination purposes.

Get a life.


----------



## Ghostman

I'm in Roza's camp on this one. If the amp is advertised as "Hand wired" it better be completely hand wired. This begins the slippery slope of amps touting to be "Hand wired" when a single wire is plugged in, inside the amp.

And at $3700, the amp better look like the extra cost when into the build. You don't buy a Ferrari that looks like a 1976 Pinto for a premium price, regardless if it does 0-60 in 3 seconds.


----------



## lespaul84

charveldan said:


> Marshall JMP's have been PCB since 1975 and counting.
> 
> Dave metioned the new boards over a year ago.
> 
> Unless someone is holding a gun to ur head to buy a FRIEDMAN u have the choice to do what you want.
> 
> Instead of playing amps, sound like the OP is stirring the pot for character assassination purposes.
> 
> Get a life.



Relax buddy I was just asking a question. Not everybody spends their time lurking Internet forums (4000 posts lmao) for announcements by friedman amps we go by what is advertised.


----------



## charveldan

lespaul84 said:


> Relax buddy I was just asking a question. Not everybody spends their time lurking Internet forums (4000 posts lmao) for announcements by friedman amps we go by what is advertised.



They dont advertise.

FRIEDMAN PR is based on attraction rather than shameless promotion.

If i were to drop $3K on an amp id do my homework just sayin.


----------



## lespaul84

charveldan said:


> They dont advertise.
> 
> FRIEDMAN PR is based on attraction rather than shameless promotion.
> 
> If i were to drop $3K on an amp id do my homework just sayin.



The amp is advertised as handwiredd. Most people generally would think this to be turret board. I was surprised it wasn't based on how the amp is described on seller sites. That being said I am not bashing this amp. Best amp I own. One of the best I've ever played. My opinion totally worth the 3700 just like a soldano or bogner. The purpose of th thread was to gain insight into the wiring which I really know nothing about as my extent of amp knowledge is plugging in and playing.


----------



## aryasridhar

Does anyone here has the Pink Taco? Is that a Turret board design or hybrid? I am interested in getting one, that's the only one that I can probably afford to get.


----------



## rmroza

unsure about the pink taco. dave never mentioned it with the new pcb board, only be-100, cantrell we know now, and small box.

as said above...the thing is that this is advertised as handwired n still sellinge at a premium price.


----------



## aryasridhar

rmroza said:


> unsure about the pink taco. dave never mentioned it with the new pcb board, only be-100, cantrell we know now, and small box.
> 
> as said above...the thing is that this is advertised as handwired n still sellinge at a premium price.



Even PT also is not a very inexpensive amp, I hope it is turret construction. The premium for BE100, Small Box and Cantrell indeed is very high.

I feel it is not a sin to turn into complete PCB, some great amps are like that, but then a true pcb will bring down the cost a lot, much less manual work and stuff like that, and with the number of components that I see on the BE100 for example, PCB should bring down the time taken to build one amp a lot.

Sometimes, businesses do not want to pass on the savings to the customers, it is at the discretion of the management. However, I hope even BE etc become more affordable. Would be awesome to have one for the tones.


----------



## Alabama Thunderpussy

If you really want to get technical about it, those components are loaded into those PCB's by hand before the board is installed into the amp and flying leads connected. I would still consider that handwired.

I also retract my previous statement about PCB being faster. I can build a PCB amp faster than tag or turret but what I wasn't considering was the chassis and board prep time, which remain much the same. The amount of work is not that different.


----------



## rmroza

Yeah, the labor may not be any more, but if you need to work on this or MOD it, it will be a bitch and on PCBs as a through-hole plating will dissipate the heat and have a hard time getting components out or burning a trace off a board. The design and tone has to be 100% and with no change in the future on a PCB based amp. If it is...great, but personally when I buy or want an amp, I want it turret and completely hand wired.

The build is interesting in these latest Friedman's and again utilized to minimize labor given a certain design. As you can see, there are no wires on the top of the board! How unusual! They must batch them and cut the wires to length, completely solder in all components, then solder in all wires already to length, then install the board, and hook up connections. It looks clean and limit what people can see going on top side, but should anything go wrong, man, there is no room to work, so everything would need to be disconnected and desoldered to access the underside of the board I think and what a nightmare if any warranty problems. Again, I would want turret and top-side wiring due to that.


----------



## aryasridhar

rmroza said:


> Yeah, the labor may not be any more, but if you need to work on this or MOD it, it will be a bitch and on PCBs as a through-hole plating will dissipate the heat and have a hard time getting components out or burning a trace off a board. The design and tone has to be 100% and with no change in the future on a PCB based amp. If it is...great, but personally when I buy or want an amp, I want it turret and completely hand wired.
> 
> The build is interesting in these latest Friedman's and again utilized to minimize labor given a certain design. As you can see, there are no wires on the top of the board! How unusual! They must batch them and cut the wires to length, completely solder in all components, then solder in all wires already to length, then install the board, and hook up connections. It looks clean and limit what people can see going on top side, but should anything go wrong, man, there is no room to work, so everything would need to be disconnected and desoldered to access the underside of the board I think and what a nightmare if any warranty problems. Again, I would want turret and top-side wiring due to that.



A True PCB will be super easy to repair, with the design and parts layout like a Proper PCB, those can be easy to repair. Heat disspating by pads is somewhat true, but then you need to know what soldering iron to use to get that done without problems.

If i had to choose between this board and a proper turret I also would prefer a turret based board. In general a complete hand wired amp would be the right choice when paying this kind of money.


----------



## flyingskull

Wow... it took darvelchan 4 pages to come to the aid of Dave Fryguy of ROCKsystems? 

Usually dan strokes out immediately if the HBE and BE licking is not observed by all.


----------



## Alabama Thunderpussy

rmroza said:


> Yeah, the labor may not be any more, but if you need to work on this or MOD it, it will be a bitch and on PCBs as a through-hole plating will dissipate the heat and have a hard time getting components out or burning a trace off a board. The design and tone has to be 100% and with no change in the future on a PCB based amp. If it is...great, but personally when I buy or want an amp, I want it turret and completely hand wired.
> 
> The build is interesting in these latest Friedman's and again utilized to minimize labor given a certain design. As you can see, there are no wires on the top of the board! How unusual! They must batch them and cut the wires to length, completely solder in all components, then solder in all wires already to length, then install the board, and hook up connections. It looks clean and limit what people can see going on top side, but should anything go wrong, man, there is no room to work, so everything would need to be disconnected and desoldered to access the underside of the board I think and what a nightmare if any warranty problems. Again, I would want turret and top-side wiring due to that.



Yes, more than likely the board is populated and flying leads installed and cut to length ahead of time, and after tube sockets, pots and jacks are wired up, the board is dropped in and flying leads connected to their destinations. It's almost identical in process to what i do every day.

Servicing is not a big deal. When you operate in a production environment, processes that took you hours or sometimes days before become very streamlined and suddenly you're wiring up a filament string for four power tubes and five preamp tubes in an hour or less. Desoldering 8 or 10 leads to flip a board takes 60 seconds.


----------



## charveldan

FRIEDMAN is totally off base.

He needs to handwire point to point with vintage components for Slashtone.


----------



## rmroza

Aaaa. PTP, like my Bell Labs stuff and cloth wires. Gotta love em.

Point Dan is that Dave's latest amps take less time and expense in using PCB instead of eyelet or turret, but the savings is not passed on to the consumer. 

Alabama suggested to lift the boards during warranty claim or service would not be a problem. I dunno. I think you're right also in how it would be assembled with the flying leads, but the space would be very confined during service in that manner of wires to the bottom rather to the top. Likewise, I'm thinking further with the double-sided clad board with copper through connections, you're gonna have to come up with ways to service again without burning the traces up. Being in engineering for 20 years and having worked in my early career as a Sr. Technician, I understand the tools and how to do it. Maybe Dave and his team has access to them also, but it makes it much harder to work on, I guess that's all I'm saying. If it was turret or eyelet and all components and wiring on top...easy as butter. An example would be say the regulator on the new boards. It uses a 7812 with three legs soldered to the board, and also heat sink attached to the board with screws on each side (very nice layout there) and then therma compound in between heat sink and regulator. Let's say it took a shit. You'd have the challenge of lifting the board with limited space, then when you finally get over that hurdle, gonna have to remove the screw from heatsink to 7812. Then you're gonna have a pain getting the leads unsoldered as a desoldering gun probably won't get all out of the hole do to wicking/heatsinking of copper through holes and you have three points instead of 1 or two, so not like you can pull leg while applying heat. You'd need a desolding tool that heats all legs at once and pull up (special tool) or for folks and labs without the tools, the easiest way and short cut is cut all legs, then apply heat to one side and pull the leg through on each via then clean up the pads and install the new component. Not saying impossible. Saying due to being PCB and how done (flying leads out the bottom, etc), it makes it much more pain in the ass rather than previous designs from Dave or just doing it with eyelets or turrets. Ya know.

Also, I don't see sockets on these new board, previously, say for the relays, Dave used sockets and inserted the relay to the socket. Not 100% secure, but good lord, much more easy to maintain again should a relay take a shit. With PCB, again, you need a special approach and tools especially with short legs like on a relay. All of this means more time and time in service and time is money. I hope this new approach works out for Dave, but I wouldn't have done it this way or with some changes, like socketing things. Maybe he'll take my advice on this also as he did with DC Heaters and fixing the damn switch popping issue.


----------



## charveldan

Dave runs a Business and Businesses need to make a profit.

Pretty sure discounts on amps aren't part of that.

Also he has no shortage of customers including GC & MF.

He also has a solid reputation in an industry where alot don't so there ya go.


----------



## john l

I personally don't have a problem with pcb amps at all. However there's no getting around it corners are officially being cut to save him and him alone money and the amps are not going to physically be what they once were. I don't think anyone would disagree that the handwired versions will command more money yet both cost the same new....


----------



## aryasridhar

john l said:


> I personally don't have a problem with pcb amps at all. However there's no getting around it corners are officially being cut to save him and him alone money and the amps are not going to physically be what they once were. I don't think anyone would disagree that the handwired versions will command more money yet both cost the same new....



Absolutely the handwired versions will command more money, this could be a business trick too, make PCB based amps for a while at the same cost, let the used market get hot for the Turret based amps, then start making turret based amps again and charge some more premium.

PCB development may cost money depending on the quality, complexity etc of the board, however in this case it is a clear case of one sided board, not very complex. Throwing in thick traces do not cost a lot of money. Maybe, Friedman thinks the change has not reduced any savings as such in terms of labor and has maintained the same price as before.


----------



## wakjob

COOL!!! Anyone want to buy my older 'handwired" BE-100?

I'm only going to ask for a measly $9,000 US. 

Obviously the value here is self evident seeing as how it's FAR superior to the newer PCB Friedmans.


----------



## Tone Fix

I have been following this thread as I am interested in the Friedman Dirty Shirly.
Can anyone tell me what is differance between the BE 100 and Dirty Shirly?
Not the tone differances, but why is the DS $1000 less than the BE 100?
In regards to everything discussed here, why such an offset in price?


----------



## EndGame00

The Dirty Shirley is more of Dave's version of the JTM45... I haven't seen one at my local GC here. Seen a few utube clips here and there and I thought they sound pretty sweet....


----------



## solarburn

I liked the DS too.


----------



## rmroza

All good comments and well understood. It would be interesting to know the business angle of the PCB with Friedman Amplification. I really think it's just to 1. lower cost/unit and increase profit and 2. capacity issues and 3. Dave alledged he had to go to PCB to resolve the switching issue which is a bunch of who-ha. His required capacity recently has been 100pc/month.

Tone Fix - I'm not sure about the Dirty Shirley myself. All of Dave's amps are variations of the Marsha/"BE-100 platform, so you take this baseline and change a couple of components, maybe transformers and filtering caps and BOOM you have a completely new amp line and tone....but 95% is all the same. Since the pink eye and dirty shirley are different platforms (not 100w), I'm not sure if these utilize the same baseline PCB or get different PCBs and turret boards. I've always focused on the 100 watters with Dave's designs as they can be scaled. I believe the D.S. had the crappy PTs in the past and may have had the switch popping issue, so not sure if that was resolved.


----------



## Tone Fix

rmroza said:


> All good comments and well understood. It would be interesting to know the business angle of the PCB with Friedman Amplification. I really think it's just to 1. lower cost/unit and increase profit and 2. capacity issues and 3. Dave alledged he had to go to PCB to resolve the switching issue which is a bunch of who-ha. His required capacity recently has been 100pc/month.
> 
> Tone Fix - I'm not sure about the Dirty Shirley myself. All of Dave's amps are variations of the Marsha/"BE-100 platform, so you take this baseline and change a couple of components, maybe transformers and filtering caps and BOOM you have a completely new amp line and tone....but 95% is all the same. Since the pink eye and dirty shirley are different platforms (not 100w), I'm not sure if these utilize the same baseline PCB or get different PCBs and turret boards. I've always focused on the 100 watters with Dave's designs as they can be scaled. I believe the D.S. had the crappy PTs in the past and may have had the switch popping issue, so not sure if that was resolved.


 
The DS is single channel, from the Friedman web site:


MSRP: $2,699 - $2,999
Power: 40 watts / 100 watts
Channels: Single channel
Weight:
40 watt: 31 lbs, 100 watt: 47 lbs Size:
40 watt head: 9.5"H, 24"W, 8.5"D. 100 watt head: 11.5"H, 29"W, 8.5"D Preamp Tubes: Three 12ax7's Pre Amp Tubes
Power Tubes: 40 Watt Two 5881/ 100 Watt 4 5881s Power Amp Tubes
EQ: Presence, Bass, Middle, Treble, Mater, Gain
Inputs: Two, High and Low Gain
Speaker Outs: Two
Series Effects Loop: 
Hand Wired in the USA

So, is the Dirty Shirly on par with the BE 100 quality?
Did Friedman cut corners on the DS?
Other than differant platforms, is it all there?


----------



## charveldan

Tone Fix said:


> The DS is single channel, from the Friedman web site:
> 
> 
> MSRP: $2,699 - $2,999
> Power: 40 watts / 100 watts
> Channels: Single channel
> Weight:
> 40 watt: 31 lbs, 100 watt: 47 lbs Size:
> 40 watt head: 9.5"H, 24"W, 8.5"D. 100 watt head: 11.5"H, 29"W, 8.5"D Preamp Tubes: Three 12ax7's Pre Amp Tubes
> Power Tubes: 40 Watt Two 5881/ 100 Watt 4 5881s Power Amp Tubes
> EQ: Presence, Bass, Middle, Treble, Mater, Gain
> Inputs: Two, High and Low Gain
> Speaker Outs: Two
> Series Effects Loop:
> Hand Wired in the USA
> 
> So, is the Dirty Shirly on par with the BE 100 quality?
> Did Friedman cut corners on the DS?
> Other than differant platforms, is it all there?


Why dont you stop jacking around here and ask Dave himself, ive dealt with him and hes awesome.

CONTACT
GENERAL DISCLAIMER: Please check our FAQs page before sending an emails as many questions are answered in our FAQs. Due to the current workload volume, we may be unable to reply to your email immediately. Please allow 1-2 business days for an email response. Sending another email will not help speed up this process as we answer all e-mails in the order received. Your understanding and cooperation is greatly appreciated. If an immediate response is required, please first check our FAQs page then feel free to give us a call at : 818.505.0391.
DEALERS: Interested in becoming a certified Friedman Dealer? Please contact Rob Navarette at 818.505.0391 or email at friedmanamps@gmail.com.
TECHNICAL SUPPORT: Having issues or questions about your Friedman Amp? Please contact Dave Friedman at 818.505.0391 or email at friedmanamps@gmail.com.
FRIEDMAN AMPLIFICATION5419 Cleon AvenueNorth Hollywood, CA 91601, USA(located inside the Tone Merchants & Rack Systems LTD. building)Phone : 818.505.0391


----------



## RACKSYSTEMS

Ok well let me go backwards and make you a shittier amp. This is a hybrid design. It has very thick board material and has some traces, Mostly for voltage and relay switching. Most all of the audio is handwired like a turret board. Does this board cut down on time,not really. It still takes a very long time to build these amps. The reason for the board is to do dc heaters and all jumper connections to relays and such , relays are not the easiest to do on turret boards and the connections on the bottom of the board are all the same and very reliable now. The board and the rest of the amp now is extreamly quiet and stable with no variance in build quality. I hope this cleared some things up for you guys. Just trying to make the best most consistent amps out there.


----------



## john l

I think that's pretty much what's being discussed here Dave. There are plenty of us here who build and are familiar with what you do and let's face it man there's nothing going on with your stuff that can't be made to work perfectly on a turret board. You've simply elected to build the amps in a way that eliminates he extra work it would take to get each one tits and enables you to keep up with the demand for your amps. Not a thing in he world wrong with that. 

Having said that please don't sit there and tell us that this doesn't decrease your build times and enable more assembly by hands other than your own. It's not like people are going to stop buying your amps because over it so let's call it like it is shall we. 

Welcome to the forum


----------



## rmroza

"I think that's pretty much what's being discussed here Dave." Absolutely. I want Dave and everyone to know not trying to beat anyone up or making a dick-move, just talking and explaining where things were and where they are now and with that, again, this/these ARE the best amps Dave has designed and again, I've had 4 or 5 of them over time!

The amp is is quiet, great clean, great dirty, the board is robust, etc. I pointed out a couple things that could be improved, but they are minor...except for the relays not being on sockets. That's an easy one. 

This is a personal opinon in that if I were you, I would not have done it this way. Yes, you wanted to resolve some things and everyone is always looking for cost reductions and capacity is a concern and outsourcing, so I would have designed it with complete PCBs with tube sockets and everything on the board and just drop in or drop in and wire up switches and jacks, etc and sell these complete PCB's for say half the price. Then, I would do the boutique stuff, all handbuilt by you personally on turret or eyelet board and possibly even sold at a premium $4-5k range. Just personal preference and business model. As for amps, I want them simple and to work on...like cars. I cannot f*cking stand all this sh*t in these cars now-a-days. I want mechanical brakes, no ABS, I don't want ARS for slippage and modules cutting out the gas and all this other crap. Give me a carburetor or venturi mechanically switched and a basic vehicle. I guess that's the same lines on my preference.

As for the new Cantrell amp. It's the holiday's and I have been swamped as everyone else and why clips have be lagging, but I hope to have additional clips up in the near future so you guys can hear the tone and choose for yourselves in that regards as well as build method. It's all personal preference and opinion. The original thread was opened because someone bought a new BE-100 and wondered what was up with it being PCB and there was some confusion on if it was hybrid board and with eyelets or not.

john l - What's up with the Watts Tube Audio comment?? I've done business with them over the years and haven't had a problem. What gives??


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

Not to derail this thread, but I had to eat my fill of ass to get Watts to ship what I had paid for. Perhaps John L has a similar experience. I won't do business there again.


----------



## RACKSYSTEMS

Its all good guys. The board might save about 2 hours of time. At the same time we have new nice foot switches and switching cables and have had increases in metal prices along with transformer prices etc. So in reality the price went down around 40.00 but up again in other areas. The only thing that would substantially change the price of the amp is to go all pcb. At this time its not something I will do. Maybe in the future but not now. Instead i will stick with this style which is about a 90% hand wired amplifier.


----------



## aryasridhar

RACKSYSTEMS said:


> Its all good guys. The board might save about 2 hours of time. At the same time we have new nice foot switches and switching cables and have had increases in metal prices along with transformer prices etc. So in reality the price went down around 40.00 but up again in other areas. The only thing that would substantially change the price of the amp is to go all pcb. At this time its not something I will do. Maybe in the future but not now. Instead i will stick with this style which is about a 90% hand wired amplifier.



Just wondering, if it only saves about 2 hours and saves money no more than $40, is it really worth more important to not do it the way these were made back then? which is how apparently people would like it? Than doing a hybrid board model?
Paying $3700, and getting an all out 100% handwired amp would be such a great thing to have, than say 90%. Not saying the amps are degraded or anything due to the new ways, just curious.


----------



## bulldozer1984

aryasridhar said:


> Just wondering, if it only saves about 2 hours and saves money no more than $40, is it really worth more important to not do it the way these were made back then? which is how apparently people would like it? Than doing a hybrid board model?
> Paying $3700, and getting an all out 100% handwired amp would be such a great thing to have, than say 90%. Not saying the amps are degraded or anything due to the new ways, just curious.



Most people that buy them couldn't give a fuk. It really is only a select few snobs. 

Do you think anybody is actually going to not buy it because it is only 10% handwired ?


----------



## aryasridhar

bulldozer1984 said:


> Most people that buy them couldn't give a fuk. It really is only a select few snobs.
> 
> Do you think anybody is actually going to not buy it because it is only 10% handwired ?



I agree, most will not care of what's going on inside, and when someone can pay truck loads of cash buying PCB based Marshalls (again using this statement as an example), they sure can/will buy the stuff Dave puts out.. I am trying to understand the business side of things when I asked him my questions there...


----------



## RACKSYSTEMS

Well really its more about issues with connections on the bottom of the board. Also the ability to use relays in a less clumsy way and of course doing dc heaters.
Its just a more consistent way of doing things with the least problems with a production of around 100+ amps a month. We have a team of around 15 people working on production. Hell parts ordering is a full time job in itself. the amps are now a better quieter product because of it. There is no loss in quality, in fact its better quality.


----------



## Crunchcity

Thanks for the clarification/explanation Dave.


----------



## bulldozer1984

RACKSYSTEMS said:


> Well really its more about issues with connections on the bottom of the board. Also the ability to use relays in a less clumsy way and of course doing dc heaters.
> Its just a more consistent way of doing things with the least problems with a production of around 100+ amps a month. We have a team of around 15 people working on production. Hell parts ordering is a full time job in itself. the amps are now a better quieter product because of it. There is no loss in quality, in fact its better quality.



Selling 100+ amps a month ? Kudos to you Dave..


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## charveldan

That man's a Genius ...


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## aryasridhar

Ordering parts is indeed a pain in the @$$...also wondering if your amps going to be available in India anytime soon?


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## john l

charveldan said:


> That man's a Genius ...



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul041CSNJto]The Drifters "This Magic Moment" - YouTube[/ame]


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## Adamclayton

So back to this thread after a couple weeks (THANK GOD Friedman chimed in).... sounds like Dave's offering all this info and clearing up many sh*t stains the cork sniffers were going nuts about. I've played every new Friedman amp and I will agree that they have just phenomenal consistent tone just as good if not better than older Friedmans. 

As one poster said.... You think people back in the 60's and 70's opened their amps as just studied the parts wondering why they put this part here and that part over there, lol. If you love that tone, then JAM IT. If someones that concerned about what all parts are in a new amp they like, then do some real research. The new/older BE100 is the best amp I've ever played and that why I choose to use this at gigs and soon for out EP.

And to the new owner of the JJ, Rmroza, Im a real easy going guy, but you called me out in the thread saying I'm a "noob" and that "You guys should disregard everything Adamclayton says" to the community.... well that just shows much immaturity and a child like response to me, but I didn't retaliate. As I said Rmroza..... I said it's a hybrid board from the beginning. Guess you came around. Also was wondering about that Dimebag amp you said you worked side by side with Mr.Friedman on? You said have worked with and know Dave. And after the statement you sent saying you can build an amp WAY better than Dave Friedman, then I just had to end the conversation. And as far as your JJ, Dave should back it up that it's very similar to the BE100 but with just a few tweaks that Cantrell likes.

I don't like calling someone out but after all the nonsense I heard about "I can build WAY better amps than Friedman" (and the rudeness of his current posts and all the IM messages), was just a little too much for me. THANK you for clearing the mess of the thread up Dave.

Got several several IM's from Rmroza in the last couple week I had to hit the ignore button. He kept saying over and over that he was a WAY better amp builder and send literally the SAME video of him playing drop D metal through some amp he said he built. Told him please stop cause I have a family and too busy to keep getting IM's 8 times a day. I havent ever argued with him, thats the obsessive part and a little crazy. Anyway, sorry to drop all that but after getting the last message just 5 mins ago about him saying he's GOD compared to Dave Friedman.. (SWEAR he said that, got proof) I had to block. Hope theres not to many people like him on these forums. Everyone else has been cool on here, so thanks.


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## NewReligion

I just received my new BE 100 last week. I love it.

My opinion is that it is a hybrid board designed to deter circuit copying...I would go so far as to describe it as stealthy. Good move Dave.

It resides in good company with a VH4, Cameron all tube 2204 monster and some other no pedal needed Plexistein type amps.

Quality surpasses that of Randall Smith's Dual Rectifiers...that is to say top notch.

Mine has 4 pre-amp tubes so the loop is resolved and there is no popping when changing channels.

The PT 20 sounds nothing like the BE 100.

I played the SS 100 but found it too plastic (diode) in tone and feel when played in person. The JJ had just sold so I went with the New version BE 100 chassis date December 2014 DF Marked with a "J" inside the bottom of the Chassis.

Killer ****ing amp with channel switching. In my top 3 that I own.

David


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## SonVolt

Hi Dave Friedman,

I know this is a long shot, but would you send me a BE-100? 

thanks,

SonVolt


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## EndGame00

George uses pcb's on the Metro-Plex.


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## V-Type

The pcb in my Boogie Mark III is ridiculously robust.


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## John 14:6

RACKSYSTEMS said:


> Well really its more about issues with connections on the bottom of the board. Also the ability to use relays in a less clumsy way and of course doing dc heaters.
> Its just a more consistent way of doing things with the least problems with a production of around 100+ amps a month. We have a team of around 15 people working on production. Hell parts ordering is a full time job in itself. the amps are now a better quieter product because of it. There is no loss in quality, in fact its better quality.


 I am guessing my Smallbox head has the new board and DC heaters? It sounds amazing and extremely quiet so I don't really care what is under the hood though I am still curious. I used it live for the first time this weekend and it performed like a champ.


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## NewReligion

wakjob said:


> COOL!!! Anyone want to buy my older 'handwired" BE-100?
> 
> I'm only going to ask for a measly $9,000 US.
> 
> Obviously the value here is self evident seeing as how it's FAR superior to the newer PCB Friedmans.



I got it. Thanks Bro... ♫


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## danfrank

Hogie34 said:


> Guitar rocker maybe you can answer this for me. I was looking at that board and even my uneducated self knew it was a pcb. However that being said, is the black "cover " over the board to hide the location of circuits so someone has a harder time stealing his ideas/designs? Forgive me if any of my wording is incorrect , I'm not an electronics guy lol.



The black "cover" is silkscreen which makes the board look more "professional", as a byproduct it sort of hides the traces but in person the traces can be easily seen on the board. It's just hard to see them in a picture. The silkscreening comes in many different colors, Dave chose black, or they chose it for him.
By the way, these are first rate PCBs... Thick and made of fiberglass, not the phenolic crap that was commonly used for PCBs in the 70s and early 80s, like on Ampegs of that time period. The phenolic material is what gave PCBs a bad name.


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## Derek S

Not sure if its been mentioned (long thread) but Dave samples and signs all his amps too...a nice touch IMO. When I first glanced at my SmallBox chasis I was like "Wha? He signed mine? Too cool! Wonder if that means it has been modded in any way?!" Then with some reading up I uncovered that, at least in recent years, he indeed tries to give them all a once over and his personal seal.


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