# Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How?



## joshuaaewallen

Hey All! I'm still a bit new to the Marshall Forum, but already I have seen quite a bit of discussion regarding the selection and operation of power amp tubes. But... I would really like to get some feed back regarding the selection of preamp tubes. 

I rarely play out, and quite frankly seldom have opportunity to turn my TSL122 up past 1 or 2. I am aware of the fact that because of this, I will be getting most of my tone from my preamp section, and not from the power amp. That being the case I would like to know more about how preamp tubes effect my sound.

I play mainly classic rock ranging from AC/DC to Def Leppard. Clearly I love distorted guitar tone, but I also love the way my TSL122 sounds on the clean channel. So...

What I am hoping for is feedback from you more experienced members of the forum regarding such topics as: How will different tubes change my sound to better suit my style of playing? What tonal qualities do different preamp tubes have? What is a good starting point for finding the right tubes for me? Can I "mix-and-match" preamp tubes? How long do preamp tubes last? How often should I replace them?

Please, do share your thoughts on this subject. I am eager to know what your experiences have been. Thanks in advance for your responses!


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## Patill

preamp tubes last A LOT longer than power amp tubes because they don´t get that hot. A broken Preamp tube is mostly a production mistake.

Tubes in microphones for example stay there their whole life usually, there is no socket to change them.

I don´t know how they will affect your sound, but that´s very hard to tell anyway.


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## steelhorse

yep, yep and yep! Have fun with it and explore the different tonal palettes available, you never know what you might stumble across!

Depending on the manufacturer, the type of tube (standard, high gain, high gain/balanced, gold pin etc.) and the position, pre amp tubes can make a big difference in tone.


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## joshuaaewallen

steelhorse said:


> yep, yep and yep! Have fun with it and explore the different tonal palettes available, you never know what you might stumble across!
> 
> Depending on the manufacturer, the type of tube (standard, high gain, high gain/balanced, gold pin etc.) and the position, pre amp tubes can make a big difference in tone.



Are there any good resources to help gain some insight into the tone characteristics of different tubes _prior_ to actually buying a bunch of different tubes and juts blindly experimenting?


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## Eag

joshuaaewallen said:


> Are there any good resources to help gain some insight into the tone characteristics of different tubes _prior_ to actually buying a bunch of different tubes and juts blindly experimenting?



Plenty of good sources. One decision you will be making is whether you are going to go with new production, NOS, or both. Next you will want to assess your amp's tone and decide what you want to change. Is the tone too bright? Too dark? Too fizzy? Too much gain? Not enough gain? Too smooth? Too gritty? There are preamp tubes which will address any of these tonal points. For example, in new production tubes, JJ 12ax7s are generally regarded as rather dark in tone which can be nice for taming a bright and brassy plexi....the list goes on and on and on....


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## jcmjmp

joshuaaewallen said:


> Are there any good resources to help gain some insight into the tone characteristics of different tubes _prior_ to actually buying a bunch of different tubes and juts blindly experimenting?




Vacuum tubes @ thetubestore. New and NOS electron tubes for any amplifier.

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7review.html

They have some basic reviews of their preamp tubes. Its a good starting point.


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## joshuaaewallen

jcmjmp said:


> Vacuum tubes @ thetubestore. New and NOS electron tubes for any amplifier.
> 
> 12AX7 Tube Type Review
> 
> They have some basic reviews of their preamp tubes. Its a good starting point.



Thanks guys... I will definitely be doin' some research into this. I am really exited about the possibilities!


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## The Mick

One of the best things you can do for your amp and yourself is search the thrift stores for old cabinet stereos from the 50's they were very popular. I have found many with the original Telefunken 12ax7's in them. Dealing with the big cabinet is a pain but for the Telefunken's at the price of the stereo it's worth all the hassle.


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## Eag

The Mick said:


> One of the best things you can do for your amp and yourself is search the thrift stores for old cabinet stereos from the 50's they were very popular. I have found many with the original Telefunken 12ax7's in them. Dealing with the big cabinet is a pain but for the Telefunken's at the price of the stereo it's worth all the hassle.



+1

Someone gave me an old Revere talkie movie projector dated 1954. It had two Black Plate RCA 12ax7 and one Amperex EL84 in it.

(I also swiped the way-cool bakelite knobs off of it.)


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## joshuaaewallen

Hello All...

Can anyone tell me on a TSL122 which preamp tube effects which part of the signal chain in the preamp?


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## joshuaaewallen

Anyone?


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## spikei

its quite a complicated one, i can tell you the v4 is phase inverter, i have seen a thread some were. do a search you will find it.


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## big dooley

V1 and V2 are the gain stages 
V3 tone stack / cathode follower
V4 PI


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## joshuaaewallen

So... Since the four pre-amp tubes "cascade" gain and tone qualities from one tube to the next... Starting with V1 going up to V4... Am I better off going w/ a lower gain more harmonically rich style 12AX7 then increasing the gain in my tube type as I work up to V4 or am I better off to start w/ a high gain 12AX& and move from there into lower gain 12AX7's? The intent being to not lose my overall high gain, but to also create a more harmonically rich tone, not just high gain w/out any soul. Know what ah mean, Vern?


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## MartyStrat54

big dooley said:


> V1 and V2 are the gain stages
> V3 tone stack / cathode follower
> V4 PI



That is correct and this applies only to modern Marshalls using four ECC83/12AX7's in the circuit. 

Please note that the preamp tube is actually two identical circuits inside of one glass envelope. However, in the real world, they might not be that identical. When replacing tubes, it is nice to have a tube tester, because it will tell you how close each half is matched. It is imperative to use a close matched 12AX7 on V4, the phase inverter. On V1 I put a tube that exhibits high gain and V2 gets a similar treatment (You may not want as much gain, so you could use a tube that measures on the low side. I have used 12AX7's that only read 60 per cent in V1 and V2 and the owners are thrilled with the sound they get.) V3 isn't as critical, but I still put a good tube in it anyway. 

I like the sound of almost any NOS tube. It's a joy to be running tubes in your amp with 1955 date codes. Telefunkens, RCA Gray and Black Plates, Sylvania's, GE's and Raytheon's are all good tubes (as long as they test in an acceptable range).

I have all GE 12Ax7's (1964 date codes) in my DSL401 with Canadian made RCA Black Plate EL84's. What a monster! Total difference in tonal qualities versus the stock OE tubes. 

I wish I could bring some of my tubes and my tester up to where you live and we could have some fun dialing in your TSL122. However, you know if you have a question you can contact me here or by PM.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... It is imperative to use a close matched 12AX7 on V4, the phase inverter. On V1 I put a tube that exhibits high gain and V2 gets a similar treatment (You may not want as much gain, so you could use a tube that measures on the low side. I have used 12AX7's that only read 60 per cent in V1 and V2 and the owners are thrilled with the sound they get.) V3 isn't as critical, but I still put a good tube in it anyway...



Thank you! Now that is what I have been looking for. I know that there is going to be a certain amount of experimentation no matter what, but up to this point I really have had no clue where to start. So reading this really rocks!



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I like the sound of almost any NOS tube. It's a joy to be running tubes in your amp with 1955 date codes. Telefunkens, RCA Gray and Black Plates, Sylvania's, GE's and Raytheon's are all good tubes (as long as they test in an acceptable range).
> 
> I have all GE 12Ax7's (1964 date codes) in my DSL401 with Canadian made RCA Black Plate EL84's. What a monster! Total difference in tonal qualities versus the stock OE tubes.
> 
> I wish I could bring some of my tubes and my tester up to where you live and we could have some fun dialing in your TSL122. However, you know if you have a question you can contact me here or by PM.
> 
> Marty



What kind of differences in tone qualities between the different tubes you have tried?



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... I rarely play out, and quite frankly seldom have opportunity to turn my TSL122 up past 1 or 2. I am aware of the fact that because of this, I will be getting most of my tone from my preamp section, and not from the power amp. That being the case I would like to know more about how preamp tubes effect my sound.
> 
> I play mainly classic rock ranging from AC/DC to Def Leppard. Clearly I love distorted guitar tone, but I also love the way my TSL122 sounds on the clean channel. So...
> 
> What I am hoping for is feedback from you more experienced members of the forum regarding such topics as: How will different tubes change my sound to better suit my style of playing? What tonal qualities do different preamp tubes have? What is a good starting point for finding the right tubes for me? Can I "mix-and-match" preamp tubes? How long do preamp tubes last? How often should I replace them?
> 
> Please, do share your thoughts on this subject. I am eager to know what your experiences have been. Thanks in advance for your responses!



I guess I am hoping someone out there with more experience will just say... "So you're playing this guitar, this amp, and you like this style of music.. Why don't you try this... (such-n-such combination of pre-amp)" Then I have, to my mind, a good starting point for experimentation.


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## joshuaaewallen

big dooley said:


> V1 and V2 are the gain stages
> V3 tone stack / cathode follower
> V4 PI



Thanks! That's uber helpful! You guys rock.


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## MartyStrat54

I posted the following on a different thread that had expanded into tube usage. I thought I would go ahead and post it here since it contains info on preamp tubes.

Marty

************************************************************

The gain stages are V1 and V2. One thing a 401 shares with its big brothers are four preamp tubes. What these four tubes do has been posted on other threads, so I won't go into detail about them all. However, keep in mind that an ECC83/12AX7 is a high-mu twin triode. It contains two gain stages per tube and that means your amp has four gain stages and that's a lot. In theory, a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100, but when it is placed in the amp, it looses some of its gain due to the resistance of the circuit. A tube that will give you more gain is a 12BZ7. It is a direct replacement for a 12AX7 and has a gain of 100 as well. However, it has half the plate resistance so it maintains more gain when placed into a circuit, such as V1. I know several players who did this and they love the way it sounds. Note: I would only use a 12BZ7 in V1. Adding more could make the amp feedback and squeal at moderate volume levels.

Some people want less gain. This allows the volume controls to be cranked more and therefore you get more power tube distortion (the 12BZ7 will give you more preamp gain and preamp distortion). The tubes of choice are a 12AT7 with a gain factor of 70, a 12AU7 with a gain factor of only 17 and a 5751 (which is a low noise, lower gain 12AX7) with a gain factor of 70. Other 12xx7 tubes with a 9A pin layout are: 12AX7A, 12AD7, 12DF7, 12DT7, 7025 (Ultra quiet, high gain 12AX7), and 12DM7. There are many more and some of these other tubes might work. I'm only listing what are known to be direct replacements for an ECC83/12AX7 tube. Note: If you want a super clean channel, I would recommend a 5751 or a 7025. This is what I use in V1. However the 5751 can be bought for less money than a 7025. The 7025 is very quiet, but has a gain factor of 100 like a 12AX7.

I you want to try a 12BZ7, the only place you can find them are on Ebay. I haven't seen any tube dealers that sell them (or they were out of stock). These tubes are usually new old stock (NOS) tubes and are in great condition.


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## joshuaaewallen

V4 is the one in the metal shield / tube, correct?


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... A tube that will give you more gain is a 12BZ7. It is a direct replacement for a 12AX7 and has a gain of 100 as well. However, it has half the plate resistance so it maintains more gain when placed into a circuit, such as V1. I know several players who did this and they love the way it sounds. Note: I would only use a 12BZ7 in V1. Adding more could make the amp feedback and squeal at moderate volume levels....



How much squealing are we talking? Could this possibly be used to create controlled feedback?



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Some people want less gain. This allows the volume controls to be cranked more and therefore you get more power tube distortion (the 12BZ7 will give you more preamp gain and preamp distortion)...



... Pre-Amp distortion sounds more like my cup of tea. I never have opportunity to crank up enough to actually get power amp distortion. Plus I am theorizing that the split EL84/EL34 power section might help w/ that anyway...



MartyStrat54 said:


> Note: If you want a super clean channel, I would recommend a 5751 or a 7025. This is what I use in V1. However the 5751 can be bought for less money than a 7025. The 7025 is very quiet, but has a gain factor of 100 like a 12AX7.
> 
> I you want to try a 12BZ7, the only place you can find them are on Ebay. I haven't seen any tube dealers that sell them (or they were out of stock). These tubes are usually new old stock (NOS) tubes and are in great condition.



Ok... We know I like my preamp distortion... How do I balance this rock-n-roll fantasy with my love of a sweet clean channel? Since you prescribe the V1 position be changed for clean and distortion? I can honestly say that as-is, the TSL122 has a pretty amazing clean channel which is very surprising for a multi-channel amp. What do you think?


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## MartyStrat54

V1 is the shielded tube with the metal cover on it. It is the first tube in the preamplification chain and it is imperative that it does not pick up any RF or other radiation or else it will send it down the line and V2 will amplify any unwanted noise from V1. That is why my first choice for V1 is a RCA 7025.

You may want to try a 12BZ7 in your rig. It won't hurt anything and you may like it. If you run two 12BZ7's you would probably get into a situation where the tubes would squeal (not in control, but out of control). I haven't ever heard of anyone using two, just one in the V1 position.

V3 and V4 are part of the amp circuit and V1 and V2 are in the gain stages. It is V4's job to perfectly "flip" the AC signal prior to going to the power tubes. That's why you want a closely matched tube to perform this. V3 is in the cathode follower circuit/tone stack. Again, part of a circuit in the amp.

Now this is to see if you are reading or not. I posted pictures of my amps. Did you see them? Well it is under a thread called, "About Time I Posted My Gear...Some Of It Anyway." in Marshall Amps. I want to post more pictures of my gear, but I do not know how to paste a picture directly to the thread. How the hell do you do it? I had to use TinyPics.com to host my pictures and you have to click on a link. I want my pictures to be right there on the page without any clicking. Please respond here, or you can email me at meospeak@aol.com.

Thanks, Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

HI Marty,

Another great post, as usual. Apparently I had the order of V1-4 mixed up, but gradually, thanks to all these great posts, I am starting to comprehend how things work w/ regard to my amp. Thank you!

Pictures. Easy peezy. Obviously you will be logged into the forum to start with, so...

1st: I like to upload my gear pics right to my Marshall forum profile (you can create an album)(I think it's simpler this way). You can see mine at Marshall Amp Forum - joshuaaewallen's Albums. When you do this, each picture in your album has it's own URL (web address).





2nd: Create a post or thread.

3rd: Write what you want in your post. Wherever you would like a picture to appear in your post click on the symbol above the text window that looks like a post card. 




This pops up a window asking for a URL for the picture you want to paste. Now simply paste the URL from the picture you want to post onto the box and click 'ok'. 




4th: Enjoy your expert quality post.

Ok... So this post isn't 'expert' by any means, but... Hopefully it helps. Lemme know if you need more help. 

Do you use instant messenger? That may speed up the process...


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## MartyStrat54

Holy cow! You went the full Monte didn't you. My God, you even copied the Windows page for me. Well, I found out how to do this. I don't know why the other web hosting company didn't work. I went from TinyPics.com to PhotoBucket.com and it worked with PhotoBucket. It is nice to know that I can store my pics in "My Album." That's what I'll do from now on. Thanks for your help.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

A picture is worth a thousand words... So I always try to go that route in the hopes that it will clarify anything that my own inept directions may be lacking...


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... It is V4's job to perfectly "flip" the AC signal prior to going to the power tubes. That's why you want a closely matched tube to perform this...



So... Apparently... Thinking I was changing out V1, I actually changed out V4... Smooth move. 

But fortunately enough it seems to have helped switching out the Fender Branded 12ax7 with the JJ... Seems a bit less harsh to my ears now... 

Here's a question... I was looking on eBay for a 12BZ7 tube, and there appears to be quite a price spectrum out there, and a variety of NOS manufacturers. Is there significant difference in sound and quality between these different tubes, even though they are all listed as 12BZ7's?


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, a lot of people do that. That is why I tell beginners to make a chart showing which tube came out of which socket. I do see a lot of posting where someone will tell another person with tube problems to just swap a new tube in all of the sockets (in an attempt to cure the problem). Preamp tubes can have problems that will not show up at certain times, so this method of trouble shooting is like hand grenades in a pond. Hopefully, something will float to the top. Just make sure V4 has a nice matched tube in it. An unmatched tube will not hurt the amp, but the phase inverting will be electronically lop-sided.

I would be a liar if I told you all 12BZ7's sounded alike. On the other hand, I would be the God of Tubes, if I could tell you which one would sound the best in your amp. Let me go to Ebay on my other computer and take a look at what is being offered and I will make my suggestions.

JUMP ALL OVER THE BLACK PLATE RAYTHEON!!! Zero bid, a hour and a half to go and starting bid of $7.99

The RAYTHEON Black Plate-BIN for $14.00 (plus $6 to ship.)

The Hytron or GE-BIN for $14.95

Try to get the first one for $7.99!

Let me know how you do.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

How are your plants? Is that where you've been, watering your plants. Well, being that I am a savvy Ebay buyer, I won the Black Plate Raytheon. I got it for $16.50 including the shipping. I should get it by Wednesday or Thursday. What a sweet deal! Oh I forgot, you were looking for a tube like this. Well, when I get it, I will test it on my sweet B and K 707 tube tester and see how she scores. The seller stated NOS, so it should read at least 90/90. Once I get done testing it, it will be ready for you if you want it. If you don't want it, no problem, I'll just add it to my inventory.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

Yup. Well watered plants. Hydration is very important.  I sent you an email in response to your excellent eBay resourcefulness... Have a look and let me know. Thanks again Marty!

Ciao!


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## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty,

I am very exited to try out the pre-amp tubes that are heading this way. I will try to contain my inner child and not just go changing tubes willy-nilly. I'm gonna try my bestest to run through it in an organized scientific (not using the grenade method) sort of way. 

I'll post my results here. Thanks again Mate!


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## joshuaaewallen

They're Here...

Hi Marty, I got the tubes today. Holy cow you rock man! I haven't put any in yet, but since I am a total geek I have started the preliminary steps of my pre-amp tube experiments.

Right now, here's what is in the amp before making any new changes:

V1 & V2 Both have a Westinghouse 12AX7A:





V3 Has a Groove Tubes GT12AX7R:









And in V4, there's a JJ ECC83S/12AX7:





Far out, eh? Any thoughts?

I think first I think I'll leave all as is, except I will put the Raytheon Black Plate 12BZ7 in V1 and see how that goes...














Let the fun commence!


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## MartyStrat54

Wow! You were doing better than most with the German Westinghouse tubes in V1 and V2. I figured you'd have a Goo Gai Pan and a Ruskie in V1 and V2. Someone actually put some decent tubes in your amp...but not as nice as that old GE I sent you. (I'm not that big of a GT fan either. They take Chinese tubes and label them up like they are something special...Yuk!)

With all of the tubes that you have and their mathematical variations and taking into account at least fifteen minutes of guitar playing time between tube changes...I'd say that you have about two years worth of experimentation, that is if my permutation's and combination's are correct. 

Let her wail!!!

Marty

MUSICIAN'S AUDIO EQUIPMENT-MAKERS OF VERSACAB


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## joshuaaewallen

So ya think the 12BZ7 in V1 and the GE in V2 after that?

  

... I gotta hand it to ya Marty, not only are ya a swell guy... But I always get a chuckle outta your posts! Thanks mate!


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## joshuaaewallen

5:00PM

Ok... First experiment. I replaced the Westinghouse 12AX7A that was in V1 with the Raytheon 12BZ7. It worked alright in the clean channel. I think I may even catagorize it as a bit more "snappy". But... Not so hot on the crunch and lead channels. Distortion/Gain-wise I think it may have been good, but it was tough to tell because there was a constant tone coming from amp even w/ all my strings muted. The tone just about matched up to the note you'd find by fretting the D string at the 9th fret. First I'm going to pull out that tube and throw the Westinghouse back in V1, and if the noise goes away I'll try the GE in V2 and see what happens. 

In case you are interested here are the tubes I have to work with (the ones that came with the amp when I bought it, and the ones I got from Marty... The Tube Corral

6:00PM

That GE 12AX7 really has a nice rich warm quality to it. That is a likely candidate to remain in the V2 Spot... But I am thinking I may pull it and try the Raytheon 12BZ7 there and see if that howling noise comes back. If it does I'd have to conclude that the BZ7 just ain't gonna jive with this amp. Any thoughts on this?


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## MartyStrat54

Well that sucks! Try the 12BZ7 in V4. You did use the slip on cover for the 12BZ7...correct? It should have a shield on it in the V1 position. 

Try the GE in V1 and the JJ gold pin in V2 and see how that sounds. If that's cool, then try the 12BZ7 in V4. If it creates noise then either it is not compatible with your amp, or it may have become microphonic (why I use the special rubber bands around my tubes).

For a short term experiment, you can take a medium rubber band and wrap it around the tube until snug. Try the tube for a while to see if it works, or if it still has the same problem. If it does, the tube might have gotten damaged in shipping (which would suck).

Keep me posted.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

ok. Current status:

V1 has the Westinghouse in it that was originally there. I just popped the 12BZ7 into V2 to see if it exhibited the same symptoms in that spot. This is interesting... 

Now the clean channel has tons of noise. Actually so much so that I can't play over it at all. However, the crunch channel has a lot more presence and seems pretty, well... Crunchy. Nice tone. Clear definition on all the notes. Not bad. But when I stop playing... There's a slight ringing in the background. Not too loud, but definitely audible. The Lead channel is smokin'. Lots more presence. Good note definition, real _heavy_ British rock. Same thing with the ringing tone (note-wise the tone matches up with the G string at the 9th fret).

Just for kicks-n-grins I may put everything back as it originally was then try the 12BZ7 in V4.


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> If it creates noise then either it is not compatible with your amp, or it may have become microphonic (why I use the special rubber bands around my tubes).
> 
> For a short term experiment, you can take a medium rubber band and wrap it around the tube until snug. Try the tube for a while to see if it works, or if it still has the same problem. If it does, the tube might have gotten damaged in shipping (which would suck).
> 
> Marty



FYI: I got hooked up w/ yer pals on eBay, and ordered a set of dampers for my tubes too. I figured it couldn't hurt.


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## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Just for kicks-n-grins I may put everything back as it originally was then try the 12BZ7 in V4.



Actually... Since I like that GE in V2 so much... I'm gonna try this experiment w/ the GE in V2 and the 12BZ7 in V4... We'll see how that goes. I have the tubes in and the amp warming up again (on standby) right now.


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that sucks! Try the 12BZ7 in V4. You did use the slip on cover for the 12BZ7...correct? It should have a shield on it in the V1 position.
> 
> Try the GE in V1 and the JJ gold pin in V2 and see how that sounds. If that's cool, then try the 12BZ7 in V4...
> 
> Marty



Well... It looks like the amp just doesn't like that 12BZ7. V4 brings out the nice qualities described above, but it also has microphonics on all channels so it's just a no-go on that puppy.

Yup. The shield I had on my amp actually fit over the 12BZ7... Whoda thunk it? So I used that rather than one you sent because it snapped in more securely.

I'll try your rubber band trick if my dampers don't come before I get another crack at it... But, the wife just came home after a day of baby-sitting so she's gonna put the kubosh on my noisy science project. I'll have to pick this up later. So walking away from it Here's How it sits:

V1: Westinghouse
V2: GE
V3:  GT
V4: JJ (not the Gold Pin)

I think I'm gonna try the layout you listed you listed above next... The GE in V1 and the JJ Gold Pin in V2.


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## MartyStrat54

Well, you could send me back the 12BZ7 and I have a bunch of Westinghouse 12BZ7. It's too late for me to try and return the Raytheon, but I'll contact the seller just in case he's a nice guy. The 12BZ7 is ruining the experiment, because it's no good. It's one of those, "It tested good, but it's no good," tubes. It tested strong on my tube tester, but the tester can't test for microphonics. You have to stick them in an amp to see if they are okay. You did and it's a screamer, ringer and a real frickin' nightmare!

If I can get around to it, I will send you a Westinghouse 12BZ7. If it does the same thing, then we have solved that equation. If it kicks as, then we corrected our test pool of tubes.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, you could send me back the 12BZ7 and I have a bunch of Westinghouse 12BZ7. It's too late for me to try and return the Raytheon, but I'll contact the seller just in case he's a nice guy. The 12BZ7 is ruining the experiment, because it's no good. It's one of those, "It tested good, but it's no good," tubes. It tested strong on my tube tester, but the tester can't test for microphonics. You have to stick them in an amp to see if they are okay. You did and it's a screamer, ringer and a real frickin' nightmare!
> 
> If I can get around to it, I will send you a Westinghouse 12BZ7. If it does the same thing, then we have solved that equation. If it kicks as, then we corrected our test pool of tubes.
> 
> Marty



I concur. A good comparison would be another 12BZ7. I'd say if that doesn't work either... Then my amp probably just doesn't like those specs. But if it does... We could have a whole new basis for experimentation. Plus, if you were of a mind to, you could try this tube in one of your amps and see if it does the same thing... 

At any rate, so far I am just having fun playing around with it. For now I'll continue to play with what I've got, and if you know of another test subject (... and it's not too pricey...), then we'll have a go at it. Fun.


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## joshuaaewallen

With a shout out to Marty (my tube tweaking mentor), here's the latest on my tube experimentation:

Around 4:00PM tonight I ran it like so...

V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Gold Pinned JJ ECC83 12AX_7
_V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R 
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S

CLEAN = Grade A
CRUNCH & LEAD = Some microphonic feedback when standing in front of the amp, even w/ the strings muted. But the distortion is _very_ crunchy. Nice.

At around 4:45PM I tried the following configuration:

V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Westinghouse 12AX7A (Made in Germany)
V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R 
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S


CLEAN = Still Lovin' it. Pretty bright, but chords are big and chimey.
CRUNCH = Nice crunch. Lots of texture. Bright. Crunchy. Very AC/DC meets RUSH.
LEAD = Tons of gain. Lots of texture. But I think too brassy (when directly in front of the amp) for my taste.

To keep it pure I basically kept the same settings that I had been using with tubes that were in it when I bought the amp... So I can compare tubes all using the same settings. So far this is proving to be quite interesting. Now I just need to find ways to keep my wife out of the house for a while so I can crank it up 

One thing I'm getting used to... Because I'm an at home player who rarely gets to crank it up, I guess I just didn't realize how much difference there is in what you hear between loud and quiet volume settings. I know that with the volume set at 1 my wife doesn't gripe too much, but at 2 it's plenty loud to hear throughout the whole house. She frowns on that... 

Plus it sounds very different in sound when you are off to the side of the amp compared to sitting right in front of it at ear level...

Suffice to say I'm enjoying discovering all these little nuances.


----------



## RiverRatt

You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.



Food for thought. As noted above I am definitely in the experimentation stage of things...

Boy... It'd be nice to have a tube tester!


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOSH, send me the 12BZ7 back as fast as you can. I'm going to get a refund on it and send you another 12BZ7 (Westinghouse).

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOSH, send me the 12BZ7 back as fast as you can. I'm going to get a refund on it and send you another 12BZ7 (Westinghouse).
> 
> Marty



Hi Marty... It's about 11:47PM... I'll pack it up in the morning and drop it off at the post office while I'm working tomorrow. Thanks mate!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s.



Found one (12AX7A RCA Gray Plate - Halo Getter) for $12 that supposedly tested 105/105... I figured the wife and I could do w/out one dinner at Taco Bell, so there ya have it. When it arrives I'll be throwing that into my rotation of experiments...


----------



## steelhorse

heh, taco bell, good one Josh.


----------



## rockinr0ll

lol that was funny


----------



## MartyStrat54

Found one (12AX7A RCA Gray Plate - Halo Getter) for $12 that supposedly tested 105/105... I figured the wife and I could do w/out one dinner at Taco Bell, so there ya have it. When it arrives I'll be throwing that into my rotation of experiments...

If you got an RCA 12AX7A (later design, better tube) that tests 105/105, for $12, I'd say you got one hell of a deal, but then you don't have a tube tester to measure out the seller's honesty. I mean that is what they call an NOS tube. Did it come with the factory box?

I just bought three, 1960 Tung-Sol tubes. These were 12AX7. Ebay deal. The seller listed them as, "Tests good, sounds good." I get them and everyone was bad. The best one read like 51/49. The other two were worse. I got a hold of the seller and they will be heading back on Monday. I was so into getting three good Tung-Sol tubes. Not to be. I have two pair of 6V6's for sale right now on EBAY in case you got a little Fender at home.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

Holy cripes! 6V6's?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... If you got an RCA 12AX7A (later design, better tube) that tests 105/105, for $12, I'd say you got one hell of a deal, but then you don't have a tube tester to measure out the seller's honesty. I mean that is what they call an NOS tube. Did it come with the factory box?



I agree... I unfortunately have no way to test it other than to throw it in my amp and see if it's crap... I wish I had a tester, but don't know enough about what to get or how much $$$ a decent used tester would run... As far as the factory box... I don't know yet... Looked like it from the picture, but tough to be sure. I'll find out when it arrives. Hopefully not the hard way... 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I have two pair of 6V6's for sale right now on EBAY in case you got a little Fender at home.



Alas... Nope. I only have one amp right now. That'd be my TSL. I'd love a smaller amp for portability, but right now I only have a few bucks here and there to play with... Hmm... Perhaps I should try _saving_ my money? ... nah 

I'll keep ya posted. By the way, that 12BZ7 was in the mail yesterday.

Gotta split... I have a cold and feel pretty crappy, so I am gonna hit the hay. Take care ya'll! Ciao!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree... I unfortunately have no way to test it other than to throw it in my amp and see if it's crap...

Well the problem with that statement is that a "worn-out" 12AX7 will still work. The gain factor of a 12AX7(A) is 100. Those worn out Tung-Sol's would probably still work if I had stuck them in my amp, but the gain would be affected. They might of had a gain of 45 or 50.

In one of my prior posts, I stated that I put worn out 12AX7's in V1 and the owners just loved the sound. It's all about the level of gain a tube is still capable of producing. A 5751 has a gain of 70 and some people sub this tube for a 12AX7, so if you have a worn out 12AX7 with say a gain of 70, you basically have a 5751.

Yes, a tester is the only way to truly tell whether or not you are getting what you bought.

As far a the 6V6's, that was sort of a side note letting other members know that I had them for sale.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... a tester is the only way to truly tell whether or not you are getting what you bought...



From just a brief online search, really more of a cursory glance, it would appear as though there are MANY different types of testers out there... What is effective and reasonably priced? (Not that I have the $$$ anyways, but someday...)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

steelhorse said:


> heh, taco bell, good one Josh.



Mmm... Taco Bell...


----------



## steelhorse

That's a LOT of taco bells sacrificed for the PRS brother!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

steelhorse said:


> That's a LOT of taco bells sacrificed for the PRS brother!



... ... ...

Indeed.  Well... Actually... 

It's the PRS that put me into the Taco Bell catorgory for dining out!  And the beauty is it's now _almost_ paid off! Ahh, how sweet it is. 
Rock on!


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> From just a brief online search, really more of a cursory glance, it would appear as though there are MANY different types of testers out there... What is effective and reasonably priced? (Not that I have the $$$ anyways, but someday...)



Well another thing you have to understand is that many of the testers being sold are easily 40 years old, if not older. Back in the day, there were cheesy testers and there were exceptional ones. To be considered:
1.Hickok 700/800 Series Testers
2.B and K 707/747 Testers
3.Military TV-7 Tester

There are some that cost way less and they're crap. Others can cost a whole lot. There is a brand new tube tester that is being sold and it really tests a tube unlike any other tester, but they want 3G for it. I'll take my trusty B and K 707. It's never let me down.

If you ever decide to get a tube tester, it would be a good idea to read up on how they work. That way you can tell the good ones from the bad ones.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty!  Guess what came in the mail today?  Here are some slight hints...











And...











As soon as I get a chance... Hopefully tonight... I'll give ya the full report. Thanks again mate. You rock!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Great! I've been waiting for the RCA tone report. I found a tray of 5 NOS RCA clear tops just recently. Unfortunately, they are 12AU7As, dammit. They're great if you want a ton of headroom, or want to build a half-dozen Fireflys. Not much good in a high-gain Marshall, though.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - Westinghouse 12BZ7 in V2*

Hi Marty!

I finally got a chance to throw that Westinghouse 12BZ7 into my TSL. Here's the deal... WOW!!! 

Here's the current lineup:
V1: 1961 GE 12AX7
V2: Westinghouse 12BZ7
V3: Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R 
V4: JJ ECC83S 12AX7S






The CLEAN channel is clear and and bright, and with the mid-boost on and the gain about 6 almost crunchy! With the mid-boost off (the way I usually like it) it can range from pristine almost acoustic clean to country twang with just a wee turn of the knobs. Very cool.

The CRUNCH channel is tough to describe. I actually _turned down_ the gain knob from 5 (ala the Georgia Satellites "Keep Your Hands To Yourself") down to 3 (ala the intro to AC/DC's "Hells Bells"). This is a first for me... I am guilty of often running the gain way higher than I should. This channel definately "growls" more than it ever did before, and w/out sounding brassy or shrill. This channel seems uber versatile.

The LEAD channel... My oh my... We are talking about a seriously screaming lead channel. I am gonna have to play around with this one. I tell ya I am LOVIN' it! It is hard to describe because it is at once both grittier/crunchier (for example when playing full chords) and smoother (double stops on the D & G strings sound incredibly smooth). It is a really, really great high gain sound.

On all channels, particularly the CRUNCH and LEAD channels, there is a noticeable increase in attack. Pinch harmonics just jump off the strings, and finger noises and movements are much more pronounced. Playing with this preamp tube arrangement will likely _force_ me to become a less sloppy player because mistakes and poor playing are more readily noticed. 

I think that the Westinghouse 12BZ7 is a winner! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest Marshall bro ever!

For those of you not entirely familiar with the 12BZ7 tube... Here's the brief rundown from Tube World:


> [SIZE=+3]*12BZ7 High-Mu Dual Triode*[/SIZE]
> (Max ratings: 300Vplate, 1.5 watts)
> (Vfil=12.6V @ 300ma)
> (Typical Operation Class A amp: Vplate=250V, Vgrid=-2V, Ip=2.5ma, Rp=31.8Kohms, Gm=3200, Mu=100)
> (The 12BZ7 has been subbed for a 12AX7 in some circuits)
> (The 12BZ7 has 2 times the Gm (3200 versus 1600) and lower plate resistance (31K versus 62K)
> and higher filament current (300ma versus 150ma) than a 12AX7)
> (The 12BZ7 was designed primarily for use as a sync separator and sync amplifier
> in television receivers. It is also useful in clipping circuits and as a general purpose
> audio amplifer)


RiverRatt,



RiverRatt said:


> You really need to throw a couple of RCA 12AX7As into the mix. For my money, they are magic in a Marshall. If black plates are out of your price range, the early '60s ones with the side getter are great, too. I'm running a couple of them in V1 and V2 and they are superb. These were pulls from an old hi-fi set that I picked up for $20, and were labeled as Sonotone ECC83s...





RiverRatt said:


> ... Great! I've been waiting for the RCA tone report...



Don't worry mate, I haven't forgotten about you. Next up at bat is the RCA 12AX7A that arrived yesterday. I am looking forward to putting it through it's paces. 

One thing is fo sho... Marshall amps just plain slay!






Suffice to say, I am having loads of fun trying new tubes and tube combinations. Thank for your suggestions and input, and all I can say is please keep it coming! You guys rock!


----------



## solarburn

This is a great thread. I love to roll tubes too. Looking forward to the next experiment.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This is a great thread. I love to roll tubes too. Looking forward to the next experiment.



Hey There solarburnDSL50,

Could you tell me about your rig and what you like to play?

I see in your signature you list your tube compliment as:


> DSL50 -
> V1- Mullard 12AT7/CV4024
> V2- AC5
> V3- AC5
> PI- LPS
> Power tubes- Ruby El34BSTR's or Tung Sol EL34B's
> 212 G12K-100/V30


I am curious about these tubes and why you chose them...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey There solarburnDSL50,
> 
> Could you tell me about your rig and what you like to play?
> 
> I see in your signature you list your tube compliment as:I am curious about these tubes and why you chose them...



Well I love playing the blues, classic rock and up to hard rock. Classic stuff I like are early Sabbath, Iron Maiden, ACDC, early Rush, early ZZ, Molly Hatchet, Nugent, GNR etc. You know, mostly Marshall tunes he he.

I like my amp to be harmonically rich, singing feed back, responsive to touch with good sustain and articulate. Can clean up with guitar volume roll off. So I look for tubes that help create these things in my DSL50.

The preamps I'm using now are a nice fit for what I want especially from clean to midgain tones. The CV4024 has a gain factor of 60 compared to a 12Ax7 at 100. It made the gain more articulate and didn't neuter the gain of the amp by any means. The AC5's just sound good and the LPS makes a great PI.

With this combo the amps EQ actually works when adding highs, mids and lows. That's another tell tale sign of having a grouping of tubes that work well with my amp and what I'm after.

To finish off my tone stack I always boost to get a better texture of gain, not more gain. Mostly to add some body to the tone that the amp isn't capable of producing on its own. That's how I roll my DSL and I love the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think that the Westinghouse 12BZ7 is a winner! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest Marshall bro ever!

Well, I've been doing this long enough to know that there were only a couple of possibilities for the Raytheon to be acting up, microphonic tube or the amp didn't like a 12BZ7. Since I have played Marshalls with 12BZ7's, the logical choice was a microphonic tube.

It all worked out, as the Ebay seller is refunding my costs on the Raytheon and you got one of my nice Westinghouse tubes. I should have just sent you that one in the first place, as I knew it was good. 

Have fun, but don't let it consume your life. It can be addictive and now that you have even more tubes, the combination of tube patterns can get mathematically staggering. Sounds to me like you already found a great combination.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I love playing the blues, classic rock and up to hard rock. Classic stuff I like are early Sabbath, Iron Maiden, ACDC, early Rush, early ZZ, Molly Hatchet, Nugent, GNR etc. You know, mostly Marshall tunes he he.


Far out.



solarburnDSL50 said:


> The preamps I'm using now are a nice fit for what I want especially from clean to midgain tones. The CV4024 has a gain factor of 60 compared to a 12Ax7 at 100. It made the gain more articulate and didn't neuter the gain of the amp by any means. The AC5's just sound good and the LPS makes a great PI.


I'm not familiar w/ the AC5 or the LPS... What are those like?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think that the Westinghouse 12BZ7 is a winner! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest Marshall bro ever!
> 
> Well, I've been doing this long enough to know that there were only a couple of possibilities for the Raytheon to be acting up, microphonic tube or the amp didn't like a 12BZ7. Since I have played Marshalls with 12BZ7's, the logical choice was a microphonic tube.
> 
> It all worked out, as the Ebay seller is refunding my costs on the Raytheon and you got one of my nice Westinghouse tubes. I should have just sent you that one in the first place, as I knew it was good.
> 
> Have fun, but don't let it consume your life. It can be addictive and now that you have even more tubes, the combination of tube patterns can get mathematically staggering. Sounds to me like you already found a great combination.
> 
> Marty



Any cost difference between the Raytheon & the Westinghouse? You really went out of your way to get me hooked up, and I feel like I owe you for your trouble.

No worries... I can't afford to let it consume my life. Besides, as nice as it is to have pleasant distractions, when they take too much time away from more important things, they just become a burden. But anyways...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Far out.
> 
> 
> I'm not familiar w/ the AC5 or the LPS... What are those like?



AC5 is: 
The Chinese 12AX7 (made by Shuguang) tube is popular with Marshall owners for its gain and bite. It is currently re-branded by both Ruby Tubes and Groove Tubes.

Usually I use Tung Sol in the preamp but I tried the AC5's and they turned out to be really good in the DSL.

The Sovtek LPS from the tubestore.com:

This is an entirely new design from Sovtek and a great step up in sound quality. They have very large ribbed plates and great sound reproduction. I found them very smooth and well balanced in terms of bass, mids and treble response. The large plates make them more prone to microphonics and in combo amps, so they can be a problem if you like to run things wide open. It is still the best thing Sovtek has produced in a 12AX7, with very good gain and low noise. I would advise against using them in compact high-powered combo amps where they will be subjected to lots of vibration.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The preamps I'm using now are a nice fit for what I want especially from clean to midgain tones. The CV4024 has a gain factor of 60 compared to a 12AX7 at 100. It made the gain more articulate and didn't neuter the gain of the amp by any means. The AC5's just sound good and the LPS makes a great PI.

Here again Josh is but another example of what I've told you and that is not every Marshall player wants or needs a 12AX7 in V1. Here we have a 12AT7 being used. (He probably would have liked the worn out Tung-Sol 12AX7's that I sent back! They probably had a gain of 45 to 60.)

The 12AX7 and the 12BZ7 both have a gain of 100. However, when placed into an actual circuit (with resistors) the gain drops some. However, since the 12BZ7 has half the resistance value of a 12AX7, it provides more gain in the actual circuit.

Some other tubes with lower gains are the:

1.5751 with a gain factor of 70. This tube can really kick butt in some amps.
2.12AZ7 with a gain factor of 60. Rare, hard to find tube.
3.12AY7 with a gain factor of 40. Difficult to find. Works well in Fenders.

There are a whole bunch of tubes that have gains of 17 to 37, but they were never used that much in medium/high gain applications. There are also a whole bunch of tubes that are out of stock, very difficult to find and were superior to a 12AX7. Some of these tubes go for $100 to $250 "each."

Another topic I have stated before is, "Marshall has found a way to make their amps sound good using the currently available tubes."

We have the option to find old tubes and swap them out for the stock ones. This may go on for another four or five years, but after that, all that we will have is the JJ's, New Sensor and Chinese tubes. At least we know that our amps sound decent with them. And hey, maybe in four years or so, these current tube manufacturers will make a better product that will rival a 1959 RCA Black Plate 12AX7. Hey, maybe they will make a copy of a 59 RCA Black Plate? Wouldn't that be sweet?

The future of our sounds all depends on the companies that are making tubes now. I would like to see them step up on quality control and improved designs.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - RCA 12AX7A*

How's this for rambling on... 

Well, the wife is out scrap-booking w/ her friends, so I have the house to myself. Well, myself and our four dogs. Sucks that I have a cold and everytime I take a breath I hack up a lung, . But... At least I can play a bit...

Tonight I have been playing around with that RCA 12AX7A.

First, since I have had such success with the 1961 GE 12AX7 and the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in slots V1 & V2 (respectively), I figured I'd pull the GT out of V3 and try the RCA tube in there. With this arrangement there is a wee bit of hum... Not the microphonic feed back I got before w/ that other bad tube, but hum coming from the speakers. There were some very interesting warm and round kinda over tones coming into my chords that were pretty cool, and with the neck pickup it was a pretty sweet dirty bluse kind of sound, but... Muddy. Actually it was too muddy for my taste on either pickup. Too bad, because overall for the sheer uniqueness of the sound, this was the spot I liked the RCA in best. It was just too noisy and too muddy. 

So... I proceeded to try it out in all the other spots too. I next put the Westinghouse 12BZ7in V3 and the the RCA 12AX7A in V2. Better, less muddy, but the high strings were too brassy. Not my thing, as I hoped more for a brighter version of what it sounded like in the V3 slot. 

Next up... I put the 1961 GE 12AX7 in V3, the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in V1, and the RCA 12AX7A in V1. Still no go. I think the tube has potential, but I'm not sure if it's right for this amp... But... 

Undeterred, I figure, well... I know I like the sound w/ the 1961 GE 12AX7 in V1, the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in V2, and the Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R in V3, so... Now I pulled out JJ ECC83S 12AX7S out of V4 and popped the RCA 12AX7A in. Better. Much better. Especially when I actually can turn it up past 1! Suffice to say any higher than 3 and being in the same room becomes pretty uncomfortable. I guess now I'll try a direct comparison in V4 between the JJ & the RCA... But not tonight. I need to get some rest. I have to get my hide up in the morning.

Cheers!


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - RCA 12AX7A*



joshuaaewallen said:


> How's this for rambling on...
> 
> Well, the wife is out scrap-booking w/ her friends, so I have the house to myself. Well, myself and our four dogs. Sucks that I have a cold and everytime I take a breath I hack up a lung, . But... At least I can play a bit...
> 
> Tonight I have been playing around with that RCA 12AX7A.
> 
> First, since I have had such success with the 1961 GE 12AX7 and the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in slots V1 & V2 (respectively), I figured I'd pull the GT out of V3 and try the RCA tube in there. With this arrangement there is a wee bit of hum... Not the microphonic feed back I got before w/ that other bad tube, but hum coming from the speakers. There were some very interesting warm and round kinda over tones coming into my chords that were pretty cool, and with the neck pickup it was a pretty sweet dirty bluse kind of sound, but... Muddy. Actually it was too muddy for my taste on either pickup. Too bad, because overall for the sheer uniqueness of the sound, this was the spot I liked the RCA in best. It was just too noisy and too muddy.
> 
> So... I proceeded to try it out in all the other spots too. I next put the Westinghouse 12BZ7in V3 and the the RCA 12AX7A in V2. Better, less muddy, but the high strings were too brassy. Not my thing, as I hoped more for a brighter version of what it sounded like in the V3 slot.
> 
> Next up... I put the 1961 GE 12AX7 in V3, the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in V1, and the RCA 12AX7A in V1. Still no go. I think the tube has potential, but I'm not sure if it's right for this amp... But...
> 
> Undeterred, I figure, well... I know I like the sound w/ the 1961 GE 12AX7 in V1, the Westinghouse 12BZ7 in V2, and the Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R in V3, so... Now I pulled out JJ ECC83S 12AX7S out of V4 and popped the RCA 12AX7A in. Better. Much better. Especially when I actually can turn it up past 1! Suffice to say any higher than 3 and being in the same room becomes pretty uncomfortable. I guess now I'll try a direct comparison in V4 between the JJ & the RCA... But not tonight. I need to get some rest. I have to get my hide up in the morning.
> 
> Cheers!



Great posts and I'm soaking it all in. I love to hear how these tubes work in other's amp circuits cause it may be just what I'm looking for or interested in.

I tried the JJ ECC83S in my circuit and they were dull and flat and EQ adjustments didn't help. I tried one in my HT Dual pedal as well and got the same result. I don't like them with my ears and in my amp. I know quite a few Marshall guys that do. What can ya do but decide for your self. Here are some other preamp tubes I liked in my circuit:

V1- Tung Sol, new Mullard, LPS, Electro Harmonix. 
V2- Tung Sol, JAN Philips 12AX7WA
V3- Penta 12AX7 which is a version of the 9th gen Shuguang 12AX7.
PI- I really haven't experimented here yet except I did try the JAN GE 5751. I didn't like it.

All of those are 12AX7's except the 5751. Out of the preamp tubes I've tried so far I only have 2 I didn't want to use at all:
1. JJ ECC83S
2.JAN GE 5751

I also like the new Mullards. I will prolly replace the AC5's in V2/3 with Mullards down the road and see what I get.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How? - RCA 12AX7A*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Great posts and I'm soaking it all in. I love to hear how these tubes work in other's amp circuits cause it may be just what I'm looking for or interested in...



I hear ya. That's exactly the type of real world feed back I was hoping for when I started this thread. I comprehend just barely enough to be dangerous, and since I'm not an engineer technical specs are_ very difficult_ for me to wrap my thick head around...



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I tried the JJ ECC83S in my circuit and they were dull and flat and EQ adjustments didn't help. I tried one in my HT Dual pedal as well and got the same result...



So far the only spot that the JJ ECC83S (12AX7) seems to fit nicely in my rig is in V4 my phase inverter... Probably because as the reviewer from The Tube Store noted, "[FONT=arial, helvetica]While not as harmonically rich as others I tested, they do provide high gain _without the usual noise and microphonic problems_ you would expect.[/FONT]" I _think_ have observed that in my rig when I have the JJ in V4 the amp is quieter with less, if any, hiss, hum, buzz going on in the back ground. It does seem to smooth out the rough edges when placed in that spot. (Of course it could just be the most balanced tube I have and thus work best in V4 for that reason...)



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I tried the JJ ECC83S in my circuit and they were dull and flat and EQ adjustments didn't help... ... I don't like them with my ears and in my amp. I know quite a few Marshall guys that do. What can ya do but decide for your self...



I agree. I have a JJ Gold pin and a regular JJ, and as I've stated, _so far_ the only place they seem to fit well in my rig is in V4. The other tubes I've been trying just seem to have more layers to the tone, more audible texture (I know that these are pretty poor descriptions, but nothing else seems to fit...) that I can hear.

I'm not sure what frequencies they are bringing out, butthe 12BZ7 & the GE tubes I am running really have a lot of depth and chime. I really think they are my winners for V1 & V2. 

So far I am liking, amazingly enough, the Groove Tubes ECC83/7025 12AX7R in V3, and the JJ in V4. I think V3 & V4 are the slots to fill now. I will start playing around with those now and leave V1 & 2 as they are. The trick is for V4 I need a good balanced tube to keep things quiet and what not.

Well... I gotta make like a banana and split. If ya have any other thoughts on this subject, please send 'em my way. Ciao!


----------



## solarburn

I'll get back in the thread later too. I work the graveyard shift so I need to be sleeping now. Catch up with you guys later.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'll get back in the thread later too. I work the graveyard shift so I need to be sleeping now. Catch up with you guys later.



I hear ya mate. I don't work the graveyard, but I've been sick and am pretty wiped out myself. In fact I actually just returned home from the doctor's and as luck would have it... ... I have bronchitis and a sinus infection. Joy of joys. That being said... I'm gonna follow your example and get some rest...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Here again Josh is but another example of what I've told you and that is not every Marshall player wants or needs a 12AX7 in V1. Here we have a 12AT7 being used. (He probably would have liked the worn out Tung-Sol 12AX7's that I sent back! They probably had a gain of 45 to 60.)
> 
> The 12AX7 and the 12BZ7 both have a gain of 100. However, when placed into an actual circuit (with resistors) the gain drops some. However, since the 12BZ7 has half the resistance value of a 12AX7, it provides more gain in the actual circuit.
> 
> Some other tubes with lower gains are the:
> 
> 1.5751 with a gain factor of 70. This tube can really kick butt in some amps.
> 2.12AZ7 with a gain factor of 60. Rare, hard to find tube.
> 3.12AY7 with a gain factor of 40. Difficult to find. Works well in Fenders...



In general, is it better to start with a lower gain tube (say a 12AY7... which I actually used to have one, but it went bye bye when I sold my Valve Junior) in V1, then gradually increase the gain factor of the tube by using a 12AZ7 (for example) in V2, then a 12AX7 or 12BZ7 in V3, and round out v4 w/ a nice balance 12AX7? Or is better to start high and decrease the gain factor with each following tube (i.e. the reverse of the layout I just mentioned)? Or does it matter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't answer that. It is entirely up to you and your style of playing and your taste. In the real world, the only lower gain tubes that you can find and afford are 12AT7's and 5751 with gain factors of 60 and 70 respectively. You can take certain preamp tubes and get a Marshall sounding too much like a Fender. An example would be putting a 5751 in V1 and V2. The amp would have a cleaner, overall sound. It's not going to crunch as well, because it doesn't have enough "gain" to get crunchy. So what you have is a Fender clean and if you use pedals, well it would work quite nicely. An OD pedal or good distortion box will push those 5751's and then you would get some bite.

That's how some people like to play. Others want as much friggin' gain as possible out of the amp. So is there guys that use 12BZ7's in V1 and V2? You bet there are and I guarantee that their amps are on the verge of taking off like a rocket! If you did any sort of knob cranking, the amp would start to feedback, so you would have to be on stage with a 50 foot guitar cable manipulating the volume to control the thing (or have taken lessons from Ted Nugent). And this is how some people like to play.

I personally like the RCA 7025 (super quiet 12AX7) in V1 with a real solid USA 12AX7(A) in V2 (like a Black Plate with thick mid's). As I've said in prior threads, the signal is going through two tubes, but 4 separate gain stages. I round it up with a couple of sweet Balwin Green Labels made by Raytheon in 1961. Most of the tubes I use are pushing 50 years old. It amazes me that I can still buy them.

Of course you know that in my TSL122 I use a 7025 and three GE's. The GE's have shorter plates and are less prone to microphonics inside of a combo amp. (That's why a 12BZ7 tends to work better in a head instead of a combo. The 12BZ7 has longer plates on it and therefore has a tendency to be microphonic.) I think the GE's sound really good. It's the only amp that I have were I am running three of the exact same tubes in the preamp. I've tried this amp with West German EL34's, but I actually like it loaded with KT77's the best. 

So Josh, it's all about your style, how much gain you need and the effects you use. There are guys out there right now that haven't changed their preamp tubes in five years and they think their amp sounds killer. If I was to put a new set of tubes in their amp, they would S**T all over themselves. People are funny that way. Someone can play Hendrix note for note, but not know how to put tubes in his amp (that's what tech's are for).

Anyway, keep experimenting. At least there are three of us (SolarBurn) in on this. Maybe I'll get around to doing some of it myself. However, I would like to do it with currently available tubes, just to see how they hang against the NOS USA tubes.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't answer that. It is entirely up to you and your style of playing and your taste...



I wouldn't have it any other way.  One of the things I've always loved about the guitar is that even though there are "technically correct" ways to do things... In the real world there's no wrong way. You can use any technique or piece of gear you like and if it gets ya there, then... It's mission accomplished! 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Anyway, keep experimenting. At least there are three of us (SolarBurn) in on this. Maybe I'll get around to doing some of it myself. However, I would like to do it with currently available tubes, just to see how they hang against the NOS USA tubes.
> 
> Marty



That would be cool too... As you have already stated, NOS tubes won't be available forever.

I just ask a lot of these questions to get a better general understanding, because in the end after thought, trial, and a few failures... I'm gonna pull a Frank Sinatra and do it "my way..."

Thanks again for the feed back Marty.


PS. I know this isn't EL84 based, but have you see this...

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/5174-new-marshall-amps.html

Marshall Amps :: Haze Overview


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't answer that. It is entirely up to you and your style of playing and your taste. In the real world, the only lower gain tubes that you can find and afford are 12AT7's and 5751 with gain factors of 60 and 70 respectively. You can take certain preamp tubes and get a Marshall sounding too much like a Fender. An example would be putting a 5751 in V1 and V2. The amp would have a cleaner, overall sound. It's not going to crunch as well, because it doesn't have enough "gain" to get crunchy. So what you have is a Fender clean and if you use pedals, well it would work quite nicely. An OD pedal or good distortion box will push those 5751's and then you would get some bite.
> 
> That's how some people like to play. Others want as much friggin' gain as possible out of the amp. So is there guys that use 12BZ7's in V1 and V2? You bet there are and I guarantee that their amps are on the verge of taking off like a rocket! If you did any sort of knob cranking, the amp would start to feedback, so you would have to be on stage with a 50 foot guitar cable manipulating the volume to control the thing (or have taken lessons from Ted Nugent). And this is how some people like to play.
> 
> I personally like the RCA 7025 (super quiet 12AX7) in V1 with a real solid USA 12AX7(A) in V2 (like a Black Plate with thick mid's). As I've said in prior threads, the signal is going through two tubes, but 4 separate gain stages. I round it up with a couple of sweet Balwin Green Labels made by Raytheon in 1961. Most of the tubes I use are pushing 50 years old. It amazes me that I can still buy them.
> 
> Of course you know that in my TSL122 I use a 7025 and three GE's. The GE's have shorter plates and are less prone to microphonics inside of a combo amp. (That's why a 12BZ7 tends to work better in a head instead of a combo. The 12BZ7 has longer plates on it and therefore has a tendency to be microphonic.) I think the GE's sound really good. It's the only amp that I have were I am running three of the exact same tubes in the preamp. I've tried this amp with West German EL34's, but I actually like it loaded with KT77's the best.
> 
> So Josh, it's all about your style, how much gain you need and the effects you use. There are guys out there right now that haven't changed their preamp tubes in five years and they think their amp sounds killer. If I was to put a new set of tubes in their amp, they would S**T all over themselves. People are funny that way. Someone can play Hendrix note for note, but not know how to put tubes in his amp (that's what tech's are for).
> 
> Anyway, keep experimenting. At least there are three of us (SolarBurn) in on this. Maybe I'll get around to doing some of it myself. However, I would like to do it with currently available tubes, just to see how they hang against the NOS USA tubes.
> 
> Marty



Hi Marty. Thanks for the great info here. A big reason why I don't try to use more NOS stuff is I can't test it to see if I'm getting what I paid for. You have a great set up going to be able to test them. I'm not going to trust others enough to spend that kinda money on tubes and then get a fake or faulty one.

So I'm stuck using current day tubes which I hear is a real crap shoot. I buy my tubes from a vender that tests them as well as burns them in. He also will replace a bad one if it happens. I got my JAN Philips 12AX7WA and my CV4024 Mullard from him as well. I'm working through using what is available now. Its been fun so far with the DSL. Learned how to retube it and bias it. Once that happened I was off and running lol.

Anyways thought I'd give you an idea where I'm at with roll'n tubes and that I am really interested in others experiences. I'm one of those guys who likes to boost for better gain texture as well. Great tubes and a good boost pedal = Nirvana for me with the DSL. I better quit writing or this will be a mile long.

Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hi Marty. Thanks for the great info here. A big reason why I don't try to use more NOS stuff is I can't test it to see if I'm getting what I paid for. You have a great set up going to be able to test them. I'm not going to trust others enough to spend that kinda money on tubes and then get a fake or faulty one.

So I'm stuck using current day tubes which I hear is a real crap shoot. I buy my tubes from a vender that tests them as well as burns them in. He also will replace a bad one if it happens. I got my JAN Philips 12AX7WA and my CV4024 Mullard from him as well. I'm working through using what is available now. Its been fun so far with the DSL. Learned how to retube it and bias it. Once that happened I was off and running lol.

Anyways thought I'd give you an idea where I'm at with roll'n tubes and that I am really interested in others experiences. I'm one of those guys who likes to boost for better gain texture as well. Great tubes and a good boost pedal = Nirvana for me with the DSL. I better quit writing or this will be a mile long.

Joe

Glad to met you Joe. You seem like you know your way around the backside of an amplifier. It's true what you said about not having a tester. I'm seeing more and more sellers on Ebay claiming they are selling good tubes and they turn out to be worn out pieces of s**t. I've made five returns in the past month all on preamp tubes. I had a guy I bought from, but he's all sold out. He made enough money to buy a nice sports car off of the tubes he sold on Ebay. You could trust him. He was honest. 

Some of the tubes I returned are being sold again on Ebay! Those people don't care. Hell the next buyer won't have a tester and they'll think they are getting good tubes. <That's too bad.> The better sellers list the tube tester they own and what the test results are.

I'm sad that Ei went out of business. They made the best modern 12AX7's and EL84's. Now their tubes are going for $25 for one new 12AX7. I play my cards right and I can get two RCA gray plates for $25 on Ebay. I'm not real crazy about the Chinese tubes, but there are people who swear by them in their Marshall amps. Right now, I think there are just three, Russian tube makers, JJ, Winged C and New Sensor. New Sensor sells Mullards, Tung-Sol's, EH, Sovtek, Svetlana and even Genalex Gold Lions. They are all made at the same plant and it makes you wonder what the real difference is between a Mullard and a Tung-Sol 12AX7? To me, the tube looks the same.

Well Joe, I want to thank you again for joining our little party here. People like you are always invited. Hope to hear more from you.

Marty


----------



## Doctor_Zoidberg

*Worth having a look at*

FYI
Amp Workshop - Message Board - Yuku
This forum is worth having a look at for anything to do with valve amps.

Doc Z


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thanks for the good resource Zoibberg. Looks like there is some useful discussion going on over there. Rock on!






*Thought for the Day...
*


​ 
*Handle **every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it, just pee on it and walk away.*​


----------



## Doctor_Zoidberg

Yep, it's a good forum. Most of the long time members are very technical and can sort out almost any problem with any valve amp, and it is a very friendly board.
It's a good place to lurk even if you never join, you can pick up some very good tips and info.

Cheers

Doc.Z


----------



## solarburn

Doctor_Zoidberg said:


> Yep, it's a good forum. Most of the long time members are very technical and can sort out almost any problem with any valve amp, and it is a very friendly board.
> It's a good place to lurk even if you never join, you can pick up some very good tips and info.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Doc.Z



Very cool addition. Thanx Doc!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I signed up two days ago. I needed a user name, so I came up with something original...MartyStrat54. Yeah, I kinda like it.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I signed up two days ago. I needed a user name, so I came up with something original...MartyStrat54. Yeah, I kinda like it.
> 
> Marty



I changed mine a hair to SolarEclispe. I don't know what's with the Solar tags either...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I couldn't help myself and I'm on the hunt for 12AX7's. I just bought a NOS RCA made by Mullard of Great Britain. Claims to test at 124/122! Gray, ribbed plates. Looks to be brand new as the logo is all there. The seller didn't specify a date code, but I'm thinking the early 60's.

One of my favorite sellers is back on Ebay with a slew of 12AX7's. His handle is reedl1712. I think he is an organ repairman because he sells a lot of rebranded tubes like Baldwin by Sylvania. He gives free first class shipping and he completely lists his test results. A real fair seller with real fair prices. I will be bidding on some of his tubes. He has a quad of Mullards that I'm looking at and some Tung-Sol's as well.

:Ohno::Ohno::Ohno: Wish me well!

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Go Get 'Em Tiger!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I couldn't help myself and I'm on the hunt for 12AX7's. I just bought a NOS RCA made by Mullard of Great Britain. Claims to test at 124/122! Gray, ribbed plates. Looks to be brand new as the logo is all there. The seller didn't specify a date code, but I'm thinking the early 60's.
> 
> One of my favorite sellers is back on Ebay with a slew of 12AX7's. His handle is reedl1712. I think he is an organ repairman because he sells a lot of rebranded tubes like Baldwin by Sylvania. He gives free first class shipping and he completely lists his test results. A real fair seller with real fair prices. I will be bidding on some of his tubes. He has a quad of Mullards that I'm looking at and some Tung-Sol's as well.
> 
> :Ohno::Ohno::Ohno: Wish me well!
> 
> Marty



Now that sounds like a great connection. Let us know what you end up with from your favorite seller. 124/122 is high gain eh. I hope its a good'n. Definitely want to hear what ya think on that one.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - eBay Seller reedl1712*

Marty,

I popped on eBay and looked at all his listings. Looks like a number of potentially cool tubes to try. And if he's actually a reputable seller, that is just plain awesome. Maybe in a week or two I'll sacrifice another Taco Bell dinner to the god of tubes and bid on one or two... Thanks for the tip Marty.

Josh

PS. I did notice that on some the listings for pairs, he shows the test results, tells you about the tubes, and comments that one is microphonic. It's cool that he actually will tell you that a tube is microphonic, but from my little experience w/ microphonic tubes (limited I know), why would someone willing buy a microphonic tube? What are they good for?


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - eBay Seller reedl1712*



joshuaaewallen said:


> PS. I did notice that on some the listings for pairs, he shows the test results, tells you about the tubes, and comments that one is microphonic. It's cool that he actually will tell you that a tube is microphonic, but from my little experience w/ microphonic tubes (limited I know), why would someone willing buy a microphonic tube? What are they good for?



They will work in certain HiFi amps, especially with a damper ring on it. HiFi amps do not generate chassis vibrations like one would find with a gigging musician's rig. Some were rated "slightly microphonic," with the tube needing a pencil rapping it to become microphonic. Of course, he wasn't beating the hell out of these tubes, because you can damage them, but he was tapping them hard enough to see if they would start oscillating. I'm proud that you noticed that in the listings.

He is one of the few tube sellers to list tubes the way he does and the best part is his shipping is free. He normally sells in pairs or quads. I bypassed all of the microphonic listings and I am only watching the tubes I know I can use in a guitar amp. (Remember, a combo amp is harder on preamp tubes than a head simply because of the close proximity of the speakers to the chassis and the vibrations the speakers give off.)

If you remember my tube tester recommendations, one was a Hickok. That is what Reed uses. It reads a lot differently than my B and K 707. What's nice is that he will give you a "new" reading and then his readings. Some test better than new and some don't. Some are balanced and some are not. He tells you all of that.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - eBay Seller reedl1712*



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... He is one of the few tube sellers to list tubes the way he does and the best part is his shipping is free. He normally sells in pairs or quads. I bypassed all of the microphonic listings and I am only watching the tubes I know I can use in a guitar amp. (Remember, a combo amp is harder on preamp tubes than a head simply because of the close proximity of the speakers to the chassis and the vibrations the speakers give off.)
> 
> If you remember my tube tester recommendations, one was a Hickok. That is what Reed uses. It reads a lot differently than my B and K 707. What's nice is that he will give you a "new" reading and then his readings. Some test better than new and some don't. Some are balanced and some are not. He tells you all of that.
> 
> Marty



Hey Marty,

Did ya ever get those tubes that were listed on eBay? I've been doing tons of experimenting w/ my small stash, and love it. I'm going about it a lot more hap-hazard now, but it's still plenty-o-fun.

Josh


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here is an update. I won the RCA/Mullard 12AX7 and a NOS Raytheon Black Plate 12AX7. Then when Reed's tube came up to bid on, I fell asleep and didn't get to bid on any of them. That was like sucking the hind tit on a boar hog...useless. Anyway, I made up for it as I won a lot of six Mullards for $69. That was a huge win for six Mullards for well under $100. I should get the first two soon, like tomorrow and I will try to do an A/B test in my TSL122.

On a side note. Here we are rolling tubes for that special sound. However, some people go all out, even more so than me. They put in the USA NOS preamp tubes and they have Telefunken EL34's for power, but they do something else that runs more than $700 (parts only). They replace the output and power transformers and they also install a choke. I went to the Mercury Magnetics web site and they have kits for almost any tube amp. I can do a choke upgrade on my DSL401 if I want. The downside is that the upgrade transformers are huge! It probably adds 20 pounds or more to an already heavy amp. If anything, I think I would probably just go with the choke upgrade. The choke is an inductor that replaces a fixed resistor in the power supply. It makes for a smoother power supply throughout the entire frequency range. I think that the choke and some really good tubes would create the sound I am looking for over a vanilla Marshall amp. $700 bucks is what I paid for my almost new TSL100 head.

For example:

1.TSL100 Head @ $900.00 (average price for a like new model)
2.Replace PWR, OP Trannies and install choke, including labor @ $1000.00
3.Telefunken EL34's (quad) @ $460
4.USA NOS Preamp Tubes (quad) @ $80

Damn! It's like owning a Ferrari. It adds up quick. You got to go to Mercury Magnetic's and look at the power tranny for a 100 watt amp. It looks like one of the old NYC Trade Towers. Some of the kits aren't available for combos, because of the size of the transformers. Think "Matchless."

Just thought that I would add this, Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I hear ya Mate. I would love to just go for it w/ my amp, but it looks as though I'll more than likely have to do it the way Johny Cash got his Caddillac... One Piece At A Time!

I haven't scouted the Mercury site for TSL parts yet, but I have looked at Voodoo Amps mods and they are pricey too... But I've heard good things about them... Have a look... Voodoo Amps JCM2000 TSL-122 Combo Mod, Mods, Modifications. 

In the meantime, I will just keep experimenting w/ what I've got here for tubes, and start thinking out how I want to set up cooling fans in the amp.

I think perhaps my power tubes are going... I noticed that the two I pulled from the amp to make room for the Yellow Jackets had a wee bit of rattle when shaken... I have as of the past few times playing noticed an increasing "rattling" sound through my amp's clean channel... Definitely not something lose (initially I thought it might be a reverb spring rattling around or something), and definitely coming _through_ the speakers... I guess maybe in a week or two when I scratch together the $$$ I'll get new power tubes and re-bias the amp... What do you think?

Regarding the Mercury Magnetics choke... I had gathered that a choke really only makes a difference if you play loud... Is that true?


----------



## MartyStrat54

So it's time to reshoe the old horse is it? Are you going to put Telefunkens in it?(LOL!)

Isn't it incredible what kind of money you can spend on a stock Marshall? It's like saying, "You're good, but not good enough!" I wish I could buy a Marshall and there were no mod's, no tube swapping, nothing that would make it sound any better. It would be complete, no options needed. Instead, it's like swap out half of everything and replace it with triple digit parts and that will make a world of difference. 

Take the choke for instance. The old Marshall's had them as well as any well made tube amp. Did Marshall quit using them in favor of a cheap resistor to make the amps more profitable (on their end)?

To answer your question, I like the way a choke works at any volume level. 

When you get those power tubes are you going to go with EL34's or KT77's?
Are you going to just get two and run your amp the way it is with the YJ's? I have a strong pair of Winged C EL34's if you are interested.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: TSL122 Tubes, Chokes, & Transformers, Etc...*

... Yeah... I think I'm gonna have to pass on the Telefunkens... As cool as that potentially might be... Uh... No.

I hear ya on the mod factor... Seems like there is a never ending supply of overpriced parts that could be replaced to help get ya closer to building the perfect beast...

I'm not sure on whether to go w/ KT77's or just throw in a set of EL34's... I know w/ EL34's Marshall's recommended bias is at 90mV, but I'm not sure what I would set the bias at w/ the KT77's... I have been investigating, and it looks like in either case I would need to install a complete set of four valves to get the bias set correctly, then, if I desire... I could throw the YJ's back in...





... I guess this thread has made at least half the circle, eh? Started out talking about pre-amp tubes, and now... Power amp tubes, chokes, and tranny's... Hmm..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I told you that already in a different thread about having to replace all four 34's and do the bias and then pull out the middle two and put the YJ's back in. Sometimes I forget what I've already said. Thank goodness, you keep up on all of it. (I was just joking about the Telefunkens, but wouldn't it be cool to say that your amp had, "Four Telefunken gray plate power tubes!")

I'll try to keep my nose clean and stay on the tubes instead of going off on little side trips. Actually, I wish I could get it out of my head, because I really don't want to put a 35 pound power tranny in my amp. I've had multiple hernia surgeries in the past. I don't need another. The TSL122 is a load all by itself. I don't need to add another 40 pounds to it with multiple tranny mods. 

None of the tubes have showed up yet. That's some slow-ass shipping. I'm looking forward to A/B'ing the 12AX7A's up against the RCA 7025 in the V1 slot. I'm also going to experiment with those slip on tube shields and try them on at least V1 and V2. I run a lot of effects on the front end of the amp into the clean channel. The cleaner it is, the better the effects sound. Such as a Boss CE-3, it gets all shimmery and I really like that sound. I think I will probably be taking out some of the USA tubes and replacing them with current production, such as a JJ or a Tung-Sol. I don't think I need to use real nice tubes in all of the slots. I think V3 and V4 are candidates for cheaper tubes (less critical).

Did you read that reply I made to cudamax about matching tubes? I read a large report and it basically stated that V4 (phase invertor) "does not" need to be a close match. So much for the "must be matched" mentality.

I'll post the tube results when they get here. Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I'll try to keep my nose clean and stay on the tubes instead of going off on little side trips. Actually, I wish I could get it out of my head, because I really don't want to put a 35 pound power tranny in my amp. I've had multiple hernia surgeries in the past. I don't need another. The TSL122 is a load all by itself. I don't need to add another 40 pounds to it with multiple tranny mods...


 No worries mate. It's all good. Other than the hernias, that is! I appreciate your input on all things TSL, so please... Keep it comin'! 

Hey, what do you think of the Voodoo mods?



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I'm looking forward to A/B'ing the 12AX7A's up against the RCA 7025 in the V1 slot. I'm also going to experiment with those slip on tube shields and try them on at least V1 and V2...


 I am exited to hear how this goes sinse you mentioned doing the A/B comparisons on your TSL122, and although I know there are some other forum members running the TSL's, most of them aren't as vocal about what they are doing with them mod-wise. So I really appreciate hearing about yours.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I run a lot of effects on the front end of the amp into the clean channel. The cleaner it is, the better the effects sound. Such as a Boss CE-3, it gets all shimmery and I really like that sound...


 I currently am not running any because I sold most of my gear to buy my marshall, but I do know that chorus & delay are tops on my list of effects to aquire, probably followed by an eq and possibly a flanger. But first and foremost chorus and delay because I _lllove_ that shimmery clean sound and I think delay on my lead channel just makes it sound huge. Love it. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I think I will probably be taking out some of the USA tubes and replacing them with current production, such as a JJ or a Tung-Sol. I don't think I need to use real nice tubes in all of the slots. I think V3 and V4 are candidates for cheaper tubes (less critical).


 Even in my limited experimentation, I've found that V1 & V2 seem to be the most critical tone-wise.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Did you read that reply I made to cudamax about matching tubes? I read a large report and it basically stated that V4 (phase inverter) "does not" need to be a close match. So much for the "must be matched" mentality.
> 
> I'll post the tube results when they get here. Marty



So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?

The KT77's are a direct replacement for the EL34's and therefore bias is the same. I set mine at the factory recommended 90mV. Some players like it a little hotter and some go for 80mV. I think the 90 number is good for me.

Also, I have heard of the VooDoo mod's, but I have never used an amp with any of them. So I'm pretty worthless on that subject. Maybe SolarBurn has some experience with them?

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So... Do you know what the bias would be if I went w/ KT77's?
> 
> The KT77's are a direct replacement for the EL34's and therefore bias is the same. I set mine at the factory recommended 90mV. Some players like it a little hotter and some go for 80mV. I think the 90 number is good for me.
> 
> Also, I have heard of the VooDoo mod's, but I have never used an amp with any of them. So I'm pretty worthless on that subject. Maybe SolarBurn has some experience with them?
> 
> Marty



I had the Deluxe Voodoo mods done to my amp. I thought it sounded good at first. It developed some problems later on playing at volume though. It thinned out. I put it through several tube changes. I saw a vid of another modder FJA and it was his mod on a DSL. I thought it was really good. So good I wanted his mods on my amp.

I just got my amp back from Jerry at FJA. So far its great. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but I like what I'm hearing. I had him add a choke with his circuit mods. I already have the MM OT. Here's what he found diagnosing my Voodoo modded amp:

1. Circuit board had black liquid electrical tape covering mod work solder joints. I saw pics of this.
2. Several circuit traces lifted due to previous mod work poor soldering skills.
3. Deep switch inoperable.
4. Presence control did very little.

I'm not going to trash Voodoo but I feel I got a better mod with FJA. It sounds better IMO to my ears. I'm allowed to have a preference. I expect work done on my amp to be top notch. If I don't get that I will certainly share that info. So at this point in time I recommend FJA mods on a DSL50.


----------



## steelhorse

Thanks for the info Solar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> Thanks for the info Solar.



Hey Steelhorse! Welcome to our private little thread that is now four pages long. This is where you will find the good stuff. Come back any time, as you are always welcomed.

Atten...hut! All tubes present and accounted for. I'm getting ready to go test them on my little baby. (The baby don't lie!) Damn, I got me a nice mess of Mullards.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Now that sounds like a great connection. Let us know what you end up with from your favorite seller. 124/122 is high gain eh. I hope its a good'n. Definitely want to hear what ya think on that one.



Well, this is the strongest 12AX7 I have ever had. I mean it is brutally strong. It tests twice as strong as a good one. What's more, it is almost perfectly balanced. I pulled the 7025 out of V1 (after playing some power chord progressions) and replaced it with the Mullard/RCA. I flipped the standby switch and I knew I was in trouble. It was like a massive clean and I had to turn the master volume down a couple of notches. (V2, V3 and V4 are my matching GE's). This is my TSL122 amp by the way.

I've had to turn it down more as to get back to my earlier volume level. Man does this tube get loud! It has a little more top end than the RCA 7025 and I feel the mids are very close. However, I feel that the 7025 might have a wee bit more midbass to it. That, or this tube is so prominent in the high mids that it covers up the bottom end.

I cooled her down and went with the 7025 back in V1 and I replaced the GE in V2 with the ICBM. Wow! This is a sound that no one would complain about. I want to put it through the grinder. Hold on a minute.

I am now burning the power cord on my amp as I have hooked my Rocktron Zombie Rectifier and Silver Dragon up to the amp. I am going through the front door with the amp set on ultra clean. It's like cooking a thick steak...juicy! Wow! That is some crunch-a-bunch. (I think I sound better than Ted Nugent on Stranglehold.) Just was jammin' out with the stereo which is cranked halfway and its a 200 watt system with custom speakers.

And you guys thought that Neil Young was the only guy that played two distortion pedals at the same time. "Move over Neil!" The Silver Dragon has a 12AX7 in it and I've replaced it with a 1959 RCA about a year ago. I got it off of Ebay really cheap (no one had bid on it). I think it is one hell of a pedal. Look it up if you got the time. It's a Rocktron as well.

Well, that was the loudest that I've played in some time. I'm checking to make sure the cops aren't outside my door. I probably shouldn't have played that loud. Shame on me.

Well, the ICBM is a huge hit. It is one powerful 12AX7. It probably has a gain of 140 to 150, or in other words, a tube and a half. What is scary is that the Black Plate Raytheon tested almost as strong. Black Plates are usually really ballsy in the lower to upper mids. 

Speaking of testing. All of the tubes tested at, or better than new. That gives me eight new 12AX7's to add to my collection. Yeah, no junk tubes! I'm going to be in Oklahoma this weekend, so I won't be back at it until Monday.

This concludes "Phase 1."

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well it sounds like the atomic bomb testing grounds are at Marty's house today. Don't worry Marty, I'll swing by and "look after" your gear while you are away! 

With "Phase 1" being a complete success, and me sitting here wishing I didn't have to leave in 30 minutes so that I could plug in fer a bit... All I can say is AWESOME!!! Let us know as soon as soon as your report of Phase 2 becomes available. Rock on! 

PS... I guess maybe I should have bid against you on the auction, eh?  Nah... I wouldn't do that to you. G'day mate!


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> Thanks for the info Solar.



You got it brother.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I had the Deluxe Voodoo mods done to my amp. I thought it sounded good at first. It developed some problems later on playing at volume though. It thinned out. I put it through several tube changes. I saw a vid of another modder FJA and it was his mod on a DSL. I thought it was really good. So good I wanted his mods on my amp.
> 
> I just got my amp back from Jerry at FJA. So far its great. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but I like what I'm hearing. I had him add a choke with his circuit mods. I already have the MM OT. Here's what he found diagnosing my Voodoo modded amp:
> 
> 1. Circuit board had black liquid electrical tape covering mod work solder joints. I saw pics of this.
> 2. Several circuit traces lifted due to previous mod work poor soldering skills.
> 3. Deep switch inoperable.
> 4. Presence control did very little.
> 
> I'm not going to trash Voodoo but I feel I got a better mod with FJA. It sounds better IMO to my ears. I'm allowed to have a preference. I expect work done on my amp to be top notch. If I don't get that I will certainly share that info. So at this point in time I recommend FJA mods on a DSL50.


 Thanks for the feedback. I have been looking at the Voodoo mods for quite some time now, but thankfully haven't had the $$$ to pull the trigger. Sounds like I might be better off avoiding them for the time being anyway... I looked at the FJA website... Looks interesting... Ahh... Maybe someday....


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, this is the strongest 12AX7 I have ever had. I mean it is brutally strong. It tests twice as strong as a good one. What's more, it is almost perfectly balanced. I pulled the 7025 out of V1 (after playing some power chord progressions) and replaced it with the Mullard/RCA. I flipped the standby switch and I knew I was in trouble. It was like a massive clean and I had to turn the master volume down a couple of notches. (V2, V3 and V4 are my matching GE's). This is my TSL122 amp by the way.
> 
> I've had to turn it down more as to get back to my earlier volume level. Man does this tube get loud! It has a little more top end than the RCA 7025 and I feel the mids are very close. However, I feel that the 7025 might have a wee bit more midbass to it. That, or this tube is so prominent in the high mids that it covers up the bottom end.
> 
> I cooled her down and went with the 7025 back in V1 and I replaced the GE in V2 with the ICBM. Wow! This is a sound that no one would complain about. I want to put it through the grinder. Hold on a minute.
> 
> I am now burning the power cord on my amp as I have hooked my Rocktron Zombie Rectifier and Silver Dragon up to the amp. I am going through the front door with the amp set on ultra clean. It's like cooking a thick steak...juicy! Wow! That is some crunch-a-bunch. (I think I sound better than Ted Nugent on Stranglehold.) Just was jammin' out with the stereo which is cranked halfway and its a 200 watt system with custom speakers.
> 
> And you guys thought that Neil Young was the only guy that played two distortion pedals at the same time. "Move over Neil!" The Silver Dragon has a 12AX7 in it and I've replaced it with a 1959 RCA about a year ago. I got it off of Ebay really cheap (no one had bid on it). I think it is one hell of a pedal. Look it up if you got the time. It's a Rocktron as well.
> 
> Well, that was the loudest that I've played in some time. I'm checking to make sure the cops aren't outside my door. I probably shouldn't have played that loud. Shame on me.
> 
> Well, the ICBM is a huge hit. It is one powerful 12AX7. It probably has a gain of 140 to 150, or in other words, a tube and a half. What is scary is that the Black Plate Raytheon tested almost as strong. Black Plates are usually really ballsy in the lower to upper mids.
> 
> Speaking of testing. All of the tubes tested at, or better than new. That gives me eight new 12AX7's to add to my collection. Yeah, no junk tubes! I'm going to be in Oklahoma this weekend, so I won't be back at it until Monday.
> 
> This concludes "Phase 1."
> 
> Marty



Holee gramolee Batman! How are your ears after that onslaught of Marshall rage?! That is one smok'n tube! Great to hear all of them tested so good. Nice score man. Great info too. I enjoyed every step of that demo. 

I wouldn't mind trying the Black Plates if they are good in the lower mids as well as the upper.

I love Strangle Hold by Nuge. Must have been crazy loud man.

On a side note I'm having fun too. I just got my amp back from FJA and plugged my Tele HH into it for the first time. Marshall-gasm! I'm very happy! Its got a set of Balls. I got to drop Jerry a note and thank him soon. 

Have a great weekend in Oakleehomah man.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks for the feedback. I have been looking at the Voodoo mods for quite some time now, but thankfully haven't had the $$$ to pull the trigger. Sounds like I might be better off avoiding them for the time being anyway... I looked at the FJA website... Looks interesting... Ahh... Maybe someday....



Take your time man. It isn't the end all beat all tone miracle. If you like your amp already it just helps dynamics, sustain and feel a bit. The voicing of the amp stays the same. Put a little money away here and there and maybe some day it will be enough for the circuit mod and OT change. 

Remember you won't make your money back from the mod if you sell your amp. It really doesn't increase the value. So you need to consider that too.

I'm keeping the DSL50 so having it modded was worth it to me. I wanted it sounding its best as my blues and rock amp. Jerry did good for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Holee gramolee Batman! How are your ears after that onslaught of Marshall rage?! That is one smok'n tube! Great to hear all of them tested so good. Nice score man. Great info too. I enjoyed every step of that demo.
> 
> I wouldn't mind trying the Black Plates if they are good in the lower mids as well as the upper.
> 
> I love Strangle Hold by Nuge. Must have been crazy loud man.
> 
> On a side note I'm having fun too. I just got my amp back from FJA and plugged my Tele HH into it for the first time. Marshall-gasm! I'm very happy! Its got a set of Balls. I got to drop Jerry a note and thank him soon.
> 
> Have a great weekend in Oakleehomah man.



Thank god you don't need to hear to read! Yes, it was Crazy Train loud. I think the neighbors thought I flipped out on ludes or something. Hey you said something that I want to respond to. In 2004, I almost bought a Goldtop Tele with DiMarzio HH's in it. God it was pretty and the price was right, but alas, I bought a long scale Schecter instead. It's a much fancier looking guitar, but I somehow felt like I should have went with the Tele. In 2008, I bought a brand new, USA, Blizzard Pearl Tele. What a sweet, little guitar. Now I wish that I had bought the Goldtop, even if it was made in Mexico. I've been looking around and I can't find a used Goldtop HH anywhere. Anyway, I'm glad you got your amp back and that you have a HH Tele to play. (I didn't know you were getting all the mod's...now you just need a couple of sweet tubes in V1 and V2.)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thank god you don't need to hear to read! Yes, it was Crazy Train loud. I think the neighbors thought I flipped out on ludes or something. Hey you said something that I want to respond to. In 2004, I almost bought a Goldtop Tele with DiMarzio HH's in it. God it was pretty and the price was right, but alas, I bought a long scale Schecter instead. It's a much fancier looking guitar, but I somehow felt like I should have went with the Tele. In 2008, I bought a brand new, USA, Blizzard Pearl Tele. What a sweet, little guitar. Now I wish that I had bought the Goldtop, even if it was made in Mexico. I've been looking around and I can't find a used Goldtop HH anywhere. Anyway, I'm glad you got your amp back and that you have a HH Tele to play. (I didn't know you were getting all the mod's...now you just need a couple of sweet tubes in V1 and V2.)



I traded my Gothic SG for the Gold top cause I just loved the way it sounded and played. My sister-in-laws kid had it and he wanted an SG. Worked out great for both of us. That Tele is so meaty sounding almost like a Les Paul. Those Dimarzios slay. Traditional it is not. I love it. I'm all about mess'n round with the tubes and I now know someone named Marty that can tell me about em'.

I'm really lov'n the Marshall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anyone new to this thread want to jump in and let us know what tubes you are using? I am especially interested in hearing about current production tubes like Sovtek, Mullard and Tung-Sol. Chinese tubes as well.

If you currently retubed, what brand did you use? Are you satisfied?

Come on and jump in and let us know. I know that not everyone is using USA NOS tubes. Some of you are using stock, OE Marshall tubes and/or Russian or Chinese tubes. What is your thoughts and opinions? Are you getting the sound you are after with these tubes?

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: TSL122 POWER TUBES (EL34L's)*



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... I think perhaps my power tubes are going... I noticed that the two I pulled from the amp to make room for the Yellow Jackets had a wee bit of rattle when shaken... I have as of the past few times playing noticed an increasing "rattling" sound through my amp's clean channel... Definitely not something lose (initially I thought it might be a reverb spring rattling around or something), and definitely coming _through_ the speakers... I guess maybe in a week or two when I scratch together the $$$ I'll get new power tubes and re-bias the amp...
> 
> ... I'm not sure on whether to go w/ KT77's or just throw in a set of EL34's...



I lucked out and got a bonus at work for referring a new employee to the company and since he has been there for six months now... I get new power tubes for my TSL122. I decided to try the E34L ( 6CA7 ) tubes that Bob over at Eurotubes sells. I'll post again after I install and re-bias the amp. Maybe next time I'll try the KT77's...


----------



## steelhorse

Congrats on the bonus joshua!

I referred 2 new guys to a company I worked for and was a few weeks away from getting the bonus but I got a better job, oh well.

What amp are you putting the E34L's into? I love those tubes and am seriously considering yanking my KT77's in my TSL100 in favor of them.

I'm p-p'ing the idea.

Pondering and procrastinating!


----------



## steelhorse

On never mind I see you're gonna do them in the TSL122.

Even better! Let me know what you think!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello all, I'm back. I got to go see one of my old Okie buddies play in his band. They were damn good. They play "every night" plus their day jobs. It was fun to see him again. I used to play in a power trio with him and I played the bass. (He's ten years younger than I am...makes a big difference.)

Hey, just for fun I put the RCA/Mullard (ICBM) and the Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and V2 of my DSL401. As you know, I think my 1999 401 sounded better than my 2006 model (colder factory bias). Wow! These two tubes transform it into a beast beyond my 99 model. I mean you can get violin like sustain from it now. (Currently I have the EL84 Telefunkens in it and V3 and V4 are USA NOS RCA Gray Plates). The speaker is an Eminence Red Fang Alnico (103dB @ 1W). With the gain that you get from these two tube, it allows a lot of different tone shaping. The Raytheon Black Plate has added more bottom end to the overall sound. It makes my amp sound bigger than a one 12 open back combo.

Then I went and took the ICBM and the BP (Black Plate) and put them into the TSL122. That left a NOS GE in V3 and V4. It adds about 10 to 15 Hz to the bottom end of the Man O' War speakers in an open back combo. I have the low end of a closed back without the beaming you get from a closed back cabinet. The sound is very open. These four preamp tubes would kick ass in a DSL. The crunch I can dial in is easy as pie. If I put the pre gain on 6, I cannot turn the master up very high at all, maybe 2. The Man O' War speakers are very efficient and 1 watt is cracking 105 dB. I'm thinking that it would sound even better with some speakers that were like 96 dB efficient, but then with a 100 watt amp, it wouldn't make that much difference, even at low volume. This rig right now could and will keep up with a half stack. The Man O' War speakers ensure this. 

The main thing is the new V1 and V2 make any of my amps sound good. The clean channel is beyond Fender. It's spit and polish clean. It makes the amp feel like a 200 watt amp. The amps natural OD is way out there. 

I then took a Mullard (that we'll call M1) that measured very stout and replaced the BP with it. There was a slight drop in the "big gain" sensation, but not much as this tube tested 104/106. Some of the bottom end that I liked went away, but still not bad. The clean was very chimey and touch harmonics would just ring like a door bell. Swapping the M1 and the ICBM made a difference on total gain characteristics. The clean channel was more creamier sounding (and some people prefer this). However, this arrangement made the number 2 and 3 channels awesome. I was able to crank the pre up harder. So now I am thinking maybe the ICBM should be in V2 with a Mullard in V1. However, I put the RCA 7025 back into V1 and "Wow!" what a sound. This is how I finally left it.

RCA 1961 7025-V1
RCA/Mullard 1964 12AX7-V2
GE 1959 12AX7-V3
GE 1959 12AX7-V4

I may do some swapping with the other Mullards I got with the GE's in V3 and V4, but right now the above tube combination is just friggin' amazing.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty. Thanks for the update. And I'm glad you had a good visit in Okie... I loved this latest installment of your Tube Town Adventures... The only problem is it brings out the Tube Junkie that's I have to keep locked away because he always wants more toys!


----------



## steelhorse

There's always the taco bell sacrifice.


----------



## solarburn

Yep. Thanks Marty. I'll read it again when I have a little more time.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

steelhorse said:


> There's always the taco bell sacrifice.



No sacrifice is too great when one's pursuit is the ultimate in tone!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yep. Thanks Marty. I'll read it again when I have a little more time.



Hey, I sent you a private email. Get back to me when you can.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Since I have so many 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's, I've reached the conclusion that it could take months to perform all of the various tube swaps. (I think that is why I settled quickly for what is currently in my TSL122.)

I did take all of the pre tubes out of my 122 and I replaced them with the following Mullards: M1, M2, M3 and M4. M3 and M4 were not as balanced as M1 and M2, but I've already read the research papers that stated you don't have to be perfect, especially on V4. It can be off balance and the amp will still work fine. 

Anyway, I put the two strongest Mullards in V1 and V2. The amp sounded great. A lot better than stock. It didn't have the dam breaking sensation the the ICBM and the BP had, but nonetheless it had a lot of gain. Again, this is the sound that some players would crave. The Mullards have a very wide audio spectrum and I got some low end out of these tubes without any sacrifice to the mids and high mids. 

Just for grins and giggles, I pulled V4 and put in a Tung-Sol USA 5751. This made a change in the amount of pre and post drive you could push through the amp. You could take the pre and push it higher and the post volume could be cranked more. This gave a more "power tube" sound when pushed to the volumes I dare not say how loud!

I then pulled the 5751 and put in a brand new, NOS USA JAN 12AT7. The 5751 has a gain of 70 and the 12AT7 has a gain of 60. Putting it in made the Marshall very tame. I don't want to use the term, "Fender sounding," but it wasn't the "Marshall sound." I could twist the pre to 8 and the master volume to 6 and it had a very smooth, clean, high headroom sound to it.

I then pulled V1 and V2 and put in the ICBM and the BP. Completely different sound. Not the extreme bluesbreaker sound with massive gain, but these two tubes actually defeated the lower gain characteristics of the 12AT7! I took out the 12AT7 and put in the 5751 and it was almost as if I was running a 12AX7. Finally, I put the M1 and M2 tubes in V3 and V4. Now I have four, very high gain tubes in the amp. V3 measured just a hair lower than the BP. Once again the amp had this sensation of being a 200 watt amp. It was just biting at the bit waiting to bust out of the gate. The BP adds the deeper mids to the mix and the Mullards have exceptional bell-like highs. The total sound was not like any stock Marshall I have ever played, including the 800 and 900. This is the sort of sound that a pro would demand for his onstage rig. Even the crunch channel was articulate and would point out any wrong note. 

Conclusion: I like the high gain sound. I have a variety of tubes that will get me there. It is very difficult trying to determine what tubes make the best sound, because they all in fact sound good. I could take two, Tung-Sol 5751's and put them in V1 and V2 with M1 and M2 in V3 and V4. What sort of sound would this produce? Probably a really nice hot-rod sound for a blues style player. Who knows, maybe it would scream heavy metal.

Anyway, I may play around a little more with this amp. It has four, Siemens (West Germany) EL34's in it and they are really superior tubes to anything that is current production. I personally think that the Germans made the best EL34's. This brings up the second variable. You get the pre tubes you like and then you swap out the power tubes to see what happens to the sound.

The third variable is the speakers and the type of cabinet they are in. I just bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro's. They are sort of pricey at about $300 a pair, but they are called sleeper speakers. A lot of guitarist's are using them because they are very neutral sounding (and can take a lot of power). A lot of people talk about the older Celestions getting down to 55Hz, well these go lower. You can use them as a bass or guitar speaker. The high end is around 4.8KHz. They work well in closed or open back cabinets.

The fourth variable is you and how you play. I could love an amps sound playing it my way and you could come up with a sharp pick attack and say it sounds like crap.

One other variable that some claim plays a part in your sound is the cables. High quality versus low quality can make a difference in the sound for both the guitar cables and the cabinet cables. 

Right now I am overwhelmed with the sound I am getting. Four weeks ago, I thought I had some pretty good tones happening. What a difference "one" tube can make, let alone two. My amp has never sounded this good. The tone controls almost seem "active." You bump up the mids and "Wham!" you get some mids in your face. You tweak the pre just a little and "Wham!" it makes a noticeable difference in the drive and volume.

The main thing is we all know that each tube is a little different, new or old. The BP has the ballsy lows and low mids that sets it apart from the rest of the tubes. (I have many other BP's, I've just not done any tube rolling with them.) The Mullards have a well balanced tone, especially the high mids. The GE's are more smoother sounding and would be great for say a Jeff Beck sound with all of his crying notes. The 7025 is superior in V1 because it is quiet and powerful and sends this signal to the ICBM. Of course, I could pull it and replace it with the more ballsy BP. Again, this tube swapping could go on forever.

I would like to hear from other forum members about their tube swapping adventures. I guess you can say I'm a hard core swapper now. Josh and Joe got me off of my butt and I started going against the norm. I thought I was pretty happy with the 7025 and three GE's in my TSL122. Now look. The tube lineup has changed and so has the sound of my amp.

I'm looking forward to hearing from others and what they have ended up with.

Marty

"Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird?"


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Since I have so many 12AX7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's, I've reached the conclusion that it could take months to perform all of the various tube swaps. (I think that is why I settled quickly for what is currently in my TSL122.)
> 
> I did take all of the pre tubes out of my 122 and I replaced them with the following Mullards: M1, M2, M3 and M4. M3 and M4 were not as balanced as M1 and M2, but I've already read the research papers that stated you don't have to be perfect, especially on V4. It can be off balance and the amp will still work fine.
> 
> Anyway, I put the two strongest Mullards in V1 and V2. The amp sounded great. A lot better than stock. It didn't have the dam breaking sensation the the ICBM and the BP had, but nonetheless it had a lot of gain. Again, this is the sound that some players would crave. The Mullards have a very wide audio spectrum and I got some low end out of these tubes without any sacrifice to the mids and high mids.
> 
> Just for grins and giggles, I pulled V4 and put in a Tung-Sol USA 5751. This made a change in the amount of pre and post drive you could push through the amp. You could take the pre and push it higher and the post volume could be cranked more. This gave a more "power tube" sound when pushed to the volumes I dare not say how loud!
> 
> I then pulled the 5751 and put in a brand new, NOS USA JAN 12AT7. The 5751 has a gain of 70 and the 12AT7 has a gain of 60. Putting it in made the Marshall very tame. I don't want to use the term, "Fender sounding," but it wasn't the "Marshall sound." I could twist the pre to 8 and the master volume to 6 and it had a very smooth, clean, high headroom sound to it.
> 
> I then pulled V1 and V2 and put in the ICBM and the BP. Completely different sound. Not the extreme bluesbreaker sound with massive gain, but these two tubes actually defeated the lower gain characteristics of the 12AT7! I took out the 12AT7 and put in the 5751 and it was almost as if I was running a 12AX7. Finally, I put the M1 and M2 tubes in V3 and V4. Now I have four, very high gain tubes in the amp. V3 measured just a hair lower than the BP. Once again the amp had this sensation of being a 200 watt amp. It was just biting at the bit waiting to bust out of the gate. The BP adds the deeper mids to the mix and the Mullards have exceptional bell-like highs. The total sound was not like any stock Marshall I have ever played, including the 800 and 900. This is the sort of sound that a pro would demand for his onstage rig. Even the crunch channel was articulate and would point out and wrong note.
> 
> Conclusion: I like the high gain sound. I have a variety of tubes that will get me there. It is very difficult trying to determine what tubes make the best sound, because they all in fact sound good. I could take two, Tung-Sol 5751's and put them in V1 and V2 with M1 and M2 in V3 and V4. What sort of sound would this produce? Probably a really nice hot-rod sound for a blues style player. Who knows, maybe it would scream heavy metal.
> 
> Anyway, I may play around a little more with this amp. It has four, Siemens (West Germany) EL34's in it and they are really superior tubes to anything that is current production. I personally think that the Germans made the best EL34's. This brings up the second variable. You get the pre tubes you like and then you swap out the power tubes to see what happens to the sound.
> 
> The third variable is the speakers and the type of cabinet they are in. I just bought a pair of Eminence Delta Pro's. They are sort of pricey at about $300 a pair, but they are called sleeper speakers. A lot of guitarist's are using them because they are very neutral sounding (and can take a lot of power). A lot of people talk about the older Celestions getting down to 55Hz, well these go lower. You can use them as a bass or guitar speaker. The high end is around 4.8KHz. They work well in closed or open back cabinets.
> 
> The fourth variable is you and how you play. I could love an amps sound playing it my way and you could come up with a sharp pick attack and say it sounds like crap.
> 
> One other variable that some claim plays a part in your sound is the cables. High quality versus low quality can make a difference in the sound for both the guitar cables and the cabinet cables.
> 
> Right now I am overwhelmed with the sound I am getting. Four weeks ago, I thought I had some pretty good tones happening. What a difference "one" tube can make, let alone two. My amp has never sounded this good. The tone controls almost seem "active." You bump up the mids and "Wham!" you get some mids in your face. You tweak the pre just a little and "Wham!" it makes a noticeable difference in the drive and volume.
> 
> The main thing is we all know that each tube is a little different, new or old. The BP has the ballsy lows and low mids that sets it apart from the rest of the tubes. (I have many other BP's, I've just not did any tube rolling with them.) The Mullards have a well balanced tone, especially the high mids. The GE's are more smoother sounding and would be great for say a Jeff Beck sound with all of his crying notes. The 7025 is superior in V1 because it is quiet and powerful and sends this signal to the ICBM. Of course, I could pull it and replace it with the more ballsy BP. Again, this tube swapping could go on forever.
> 
> I would like to hear from other forum members about their tube swapping adventures. I guess you can say I'm a hard core swapper now. Josh and Joe got me off of my butt and I started going against the norm. I thought I was pretty happy with the 7025 and three GE's in my TSL122. Now look. The tube lineup has changed and so has the sound of my amp.
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing from others and what they have ended up with.
> 
> Marty
> 
> "Did somebody say they wanted to hear Freebird?"



Awesome write up Marty. I've been messing around with the CV4024 AT7 in mine and I'm trying to make up my mind as to what differences I'm hearing in like the PI or V1 position. I've read where others have had some good results using either but I just need to spend a little more time with it. I do like the LPS in the PI only. I really haven't tried too many changes in the PI yet.

The other difficulty I have roll'n tubes is being able to play at volume. My father-in-law lives with us and I hardly get to crank it at home which is where I do most my experimenting. A bit frustrating but I deal with it. I haven't settled on my newest combination yet but am at the point where I am going to make individual changes on the pres now and see what happens. I want to put some winged seds in too but have to wait until next payday.

Well I'm off to the gym so I will get back to you later. Again great write up man!

Joe


----------



## ts31966

Hi all, 

I have been reading this thread for a couple of days and decided to join this forum.

I have a question. Sorry if I didn't pick it up in the thread. What is the tube that you call the ICBM tube?

I have alot of different tubes, lots. I have been storing them. I have some of the newest JJ's that Bob and eurotubes picked for me. I have used his tubes in the past and I have liked them. But just like you I need to get off my butt and start experimenting with my NOS tubes and see what happens.

I assume that the tube you call BP is the raytheon blackplate. Is that correct? I also have some Mazda's grey and silver plates.

I have two marshall jmp-1's. Those are the marshall preamps for those that don't know. One is stock and the other is Voodoo modified. I am first going to experiment with it with the tubes because it is so easy.

The Voodoo mod jmp-1 for those that are interested is just as described on his website. But I wonder if all the stock unit needs to sound like the voodoo unit is some NOS tubes. I put the high gain JJ's in it that Bob sent me. But I don't hear you talking about them one hear. Also if the were so great I really don't think NOS tubes would be so expensive.

They sell a gold pin ecc803s. This is supposed to be their copy of the telefunken with the same number designation. These sell from Eurotubes for I think 30 dollars. But the real telefunkens sell for 1100 dollars.

I could have bought these tubes 10 years ago for 50 dollars a tube. I had the cash and I was going to do it. I thought why not. They can only go up. 

But my GOOD friend Bob and Eurotubes talked me out of it. Hey said, "don't get caught up in this NOS stuff, it is all just a bunch of hype. I have A/Bd the NOS agains the JJ's and they are just as good."

That is exactly what he said. What do you think folks?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome to the forum and this thread, TS. Good to have you. We are looking for more tube tweakers to get involved.

The ICBM is a RCA/Mullard 12AX7 tube that I bought on Ebay that measures almost 150 per cent of a new tube. Hence the ICBM term as it will blow something up.

The BP is the Raytheon and it is almost as strong. It is a wonderful black plate.

I bought these two tubes, with shipping for $48.37. They both came in their original boxes and tested much higher than a NOS tube. I also just recently got six 12AX7 Mullards that all tested as new for $69 plus shipping on an Ebay transaction. So the bottom line is, you can get some attractive tubes at reasonable prices.

If you have read the posts, you know that every tube has its own sound/tone.

I'm sorry if you were led to believe otherwise. A 1959 RCA gray plate with ribs is going to sound different that a JJ. I sent Josh a gold pin JJ and in his tests it sort of became the hind tit on the boar hog. "It's okay, but it doesn't sound as good as a USA NOS. There are many different types of 12AX7 tubes. Some aren't available anywhere at this time. Some of the sub's for 12AX7's sound better, but to find them is a difficult task. 12DF7, 12DM7, 12DT7 and 12DW7 are all out of stock tubes that will sub for a 12AX7. Then you have your other High MU tubes such as a 7025 and a 5751. Also used is a 12AT7. All of these tubes were made by many different manufacturers. Just like there are many ways to bake chocolate chip cookies, there are many different ways to make a tube. The coatings on the plate, the length and thickness of the plates, the size and location of the getter(s) all can attribute to different tonal qualities.

I know that Eurotubes is respected on this forum, but I would have to strongly disagree that JJ 12AX7 tubes sound like a Black Plate or a 1964 Mullard. It ain't gonna happen.

Marty

MUSICIAN'S AUDIO EQUIPMENT-MAKERS OF VERSACAB


----------



## ts31966

Thanks for the reply Marty.

What kind of tube tester do you own? I need to get one but haven't decided. I like the amplitrex but it is 2,550 dollars. It does hook to a computer and it comes with software. Which it should for that kind of money.

I saw you mention the other tube types. Does a 12DW7 have the same gain as a 12ax7? Have done any testing on a mullard 10M 12ax7. I was told the are nothing special. 

As far as Eurotube goes, well I know what I was told. I also know what I read on his website back then which I don't see now. He said that he had done extensive testing against all NOS tubes and that the JJ's sounded just as good if not better.

I also see a tube seller on ebay that just by coincidence comes from the same place Eurotubes is. I also talked with the tube reseller that is recommended on the THD univalve forum. His name is Mike. He owns KCA tubes. He sells some of the JJ's. I asked him why he didn't sell more of them and he said I only sell good tubes. When I asked him what was wrong with them he said there were batches of tubes where he rejected 75%. 

I am sure glad I stumbled upon this forum. I also own a line 6 vetta. I am a member over there. Or should I say what is left of it over there. I remember when I got it. I had it set up next to my tube rack rig, which sounds great by the way. I remember thinking what the hell did I do. I couldn't take the vetta back because of where I bought it. But I forged ahead, I actually got that thing to sound pretty good. But only because I could A/B it against a real tube rig. I remember telling the members of that forum my experiences and I got flamed and burnt to a crisp. You would have thought I was criticizing their mother. I told them how do you expect an amp that is trying to sound like a tube amp. Or in this case many tube amps. How do you expect it to sound better than the original.

I still have the vetta. It is good and very versital. I am glad I have it and it makes a great practice amp. I spent alot of time tweaking it. ALOT!!! Out of the box it is not good. Maybe the newest software is better. I don't know. And I am not going to find out because who cares. It will always be just an imitation of the original. It is probably the best amp if you want to be in a cover band. 

Needless to say they didn't like me over there. Now the funny thing is they are almost all gone and have went back to tube amps. What a laugh!!!

Some people are pathetic. They will never admitt when they have made a mistake.

I have alot of testing to do. Marty, what do you think of telefunken 12ax7's? That is supposed to be a favorite of marshall amp people.


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## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> Thanks for the reply Marty.
> 
> What kind of tube tester do you own? I need to get one but haven't decided. I like the amplitrex but it is 2,550 dollars. It does hook to a computer and it comes with software. Which it should for that kind of money.
> 
> I saw you mention the other tube types. Does a 12DW7 have the same gain as a 12ax7? Have done any testing on a mullard 10M 12ax7. I was told the are nothing special.
> 
> As far as Eurotube goes, well I know what I was told. I also know what I read on his website back then which I don't see now. He said that he had done extensive testing against all NOS tubes and that the JJ's sounded just as good if not better.
> 
> I also see a tube seller on ebay that just by coincidence comes from the same place Eurotubes is. I also talked with the tube reseller that is recommended on the THD univalve forum. His name is Mike. He owns KCA tubes. He sells some of the JJ's. I asked him why he didn't sell more of them and he said I only sell good tubes. When I asked him what was wrong with them he said there were batches of tubes where he rejected 75%.
> 
> I am sure glad I stumbled upon this forum. I also own a line 6 vetta. I am a member over there. Or should I say what is left of it over there. I remember when I got it. I had it set up next to my tube rack rig, which sounds great by the way. I remember thinking what the hell did I do. I couldn't take the vetta back because of where I bought it. But I forged ahead, I actually got that thing to sound pretty good. But only because I could A/B it against a real tube rig. I remember telling the members of that forum my experiences and I got flamed and burnt to a crisp. You would have thought I was criticizing their mother. I told them how do you expect an amp that is trying to sound like a tube amp. Or in this case many tube amps. How do you expect it to sound better than the original.
> 
> I still have the vetta. It is good and very versital. I am glad I have it and it makes a great practice amp. I spent alot of time tweaking it. ALOT!!! Out of the box it is not good. Maybe the newest software is better. I don't know. And I am not going to find out because who cares. It will always be just an imitation of the original. It is probably the best amp if you want to be in a cover band.
> 
> Needless to say they didn't like me over there. Now the funny thing is they are almost all gone and have went back to tube amps. What a laugh!!!
> 
> Some people are pathetic. They will never admitt when they have made a mistake.
> 
> I have alot of testing to do. Marty, what do you think of telefunken 12ax7's? That is supposed to be a favorite of marshall amp people.



********************************************************
I will try to answer all of your questions. Yes, there are superior tube testers available right now. Some are as much as $3500 and they come in kit form. I have a very old (60's) B and K 707 that I have replaced all of the caps and did a conversion to solid state rectification and then I calibrated the unit per the factory instructions. I've had three of them and I kept the best one. 

A 12DW7 has 100 MU for triode number one and only 17 MU for triode number two. It works as a sub for a 12AX7 when only triode one is used in the circuit. All the other tubes mentioned have 100 MU like a 12AX7, but different plate resistance. In fact, a lot of this thread got started over my sending Josh a 12BZ7 to try in his amp. A 12BZ7 has 100 MU, but half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. In a tube circuit, it will create more gain than a 12AX7. Josh had great success with the tube I sent him.

I'm not familiar with the 10M Mullard? When was it made? Is this the Mullard with the shorter plates than the original Mullard?

Again, as far as Eurotubes statements, I took all of that with a grain of salt. I have tried various new tubes, Mullard, Tung-Sol, Sovtek, E-H and they all have one thing in common, they are all made in Saratov, Russia in the same plant. They all work as a 12AX7, but if they had a jaw dropping sound, I would be using them instead of buying USA NOS on Ebay.

The Vetta is an amp that I have been around a little, but I never spent a lot of time on it. The guy who owned it had it tweaked and when I played it, it sounded okay. I didn't think it had the thickness of harmonic overtones I get with my Marshall (and my other tube amps). In other words, I thought it sounded a little thin.

As far as Telefunken tubes, I think they are right up there in the top five of NOS tubes. I have a matched set of EL84's for my DSL401. I also have some ECC83 Telefunkens that are really great sounding. Their EL34's are to die for.

Like I said, I'm sorry for some of the crap that you have had to put up with. I'm okay around a computer, but when it comes to my amp, well it has to be all tube. Call me old fashioned, but I like an amp that has a soul. An amp that uses software is getting a little out in left field as far as I'm concerned.

If I can ever be of assistance, you can send me a private email or email me at: meospeak@aol.com

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

ts31966, 

I am curious, what are you running as a power amp for your JMP-1's? And... What does the rest of your rig include?


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## ts31966

My Jmp-1's I run through a Lexicon 284. It is a rackmount stereo EL84 poweramp. I also have 2 ADA MP1's modified by that clown at the ADA depot. They have plenty of gain and a tone of noise. I was going to sell them but feel embarrased to pass them on. What a mistake that was.

Don't get fooled into these wav files these guys post of their products. I would watch a few youtube videos done by regular guys of these products.

I think I am going to do one to show how noisey these ADA's are. Of course after I do they won't be worth much anymore. Unless I send them to Voodoo. Which I probably will have to to recover some of my loss.

I also have 2 5150 III halft stacks. They sound great and are very quiet. Even with the gain maxed on each channel. These are some of the quietest amps I have tried without a noise gate. I sometimes wonder if they built a noise gate into the head.

I was thinking about getting a Carvin TS100 for power but I don't need 100 watts. The thing I probably should do for tube experimenting is get 2 THD univalves. That way I could still be in stereo and be low wattage and swap tubes all at the same time.

What do you guys think of the yellow jackets (el84 adapters). I thought of using these on my 5150 III's. I have read some negative things about them.


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## ts31966

I forgot I also have a couple of Digitech 2120's. I know you guys might laugh at this but I personally think these things are great. When I changed the tubes in these to the high gained hand picked JJ 12ax7s, this thing came to life. I really think those things with kick ass 12ax7's and the carvin stereo power amp would be an awesome rig. It already totally kicks ass with the Lexicon 284. 

I need to get a lower power speaker cab for my Lexicon. I am running it into a stereo 2 x 12 genz benz g-flex. That cab can handle 300 watts and the Lexicon puts out 6 watts. But hey it still sounds kick ass. I just run it full blast. That way I get full power tube distortion.


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## MartyStrat54

I have mixed feelings about Yellow Jackets simply because of how they are designed to do a voltage drop of 450V down to 285V. This is done with several resistors. At first I thought they were sort of cool, but now I would worry about something frying.

Josh and I both have TSL122 amps. Josh put 2 YJ's in his amp and he loves it. There is a thread about this by Josh. Maybe he can dig it up and post it with a hyperlink.

It sounds like you have a whole bunch of stuff, some of which you are unhappy with. Are you into techno rock? The gear suggests that maybe you are. I have many amps including five Marshalls, a Traynor Custom 100, four Peavey amps and two Randall amps. However, I'm old school classic rock, 80's hair rock and some grunge and current stuff.

I don't play like I used to because I have other priorities now. I have my own business and it keeps me busy. I hope you get your rig up to your standards. Let me know if you go with the YJ's.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ts31966 said:


> ... What do you guys think of the yellow jackets (el84 adapters). I thought of using these on my 5150 III's. I have read some negative things about them.





MartyStrat54 said:


> I have mixed feelings about Yellow Jackets simply because of how they are designed to do a voltage drop of 450V down to 285V. This is done with several resistors. At first I thought they were sort of cool, but now I would worry about something frying.
> 
> Josh and I both have TSL122 amps. Josh put 2 YJ's in his amp and he loves it. There is a thread about this by Josh. Maybe he can dig it up and post it with a hyperlink... ... I'm old school classic rock, 80's hair rock and some grunge and current stuff.
> 
> I don't play like I used to because I have other priorities now. I have my own business and it keeps me busy. I hope you get your rig up to your standards. Let me know if you go with the YJ's...



Hey guys! I have been loving the posts that I've been reading lately. Ya'll are really bringing some great info and insight into this discussion. Thanks! Unfortunately priorities being what they are I haven't had much opportunity to play much lately, thus the limited posts on my part. But it's good to see that my favorite "tube wizard" Marty has been picking up the slack! Anyhoo...

The thread titled THD Yellow Jackets... Serious potential for fun contains the discussion thus far regarding these little yellow beasties. ts31966, if you get bored, swing on over and have a look at the discussion. As you will see, there are definitely mixed opinions on the YJ's, but the feed back I've gotten on this thread has been really great. In the end I think it boils down to the same conclusion as most things guitar... Basically whatever floats your boat! 

Hey Marty... I am amazed you can hear at all after your recent round of nuclear testing!  You have much louder speakers in your TSL than I do, and my ears bleed before mine even starts to really crank. I have been eyeballing the Eminence George Lynch speakers... But need to save up for them... What are your thoughts on these?

Just a thought... If you happen to get a line on another one of your ICBM's, if ya are inclined, let me know because depending on where I'm at for the week ($$$-wise) I may be interested in trying to get the nuclear arms race really heated up! I would defer to your recommendations since I have no tube tester...
_____________________________________________________________________________
Currently I am running the 12BZ7 in V1... I LOVE that tube!, the GE in V2, the GT 12AX7R in V3, and for kicks and grins I put the Fender/Sovtek 7025/12AX7WA back into V4. I think the JJ is better suited for V4, but I'll leave the Fender in there until I am done w/ the power tube update. Hopefully that way I won't be changing too much at one time. Anyhoo...


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## ts31966

How is it going Marty?

Hell no I am not into techno-rock. Why did you think that? I mean I do 2 EVH 5150 III's for hells sake. I also own 3 EVH art series charvel jackson guitars. Two black white and red, and one yellow black.

No, I am into the same stuff as you Marty. My favorite tones are Van Halen with David Lee Roth and Ozzy. Too keep this back on the tube subject I would also like to get a mullard ICBM tube. I have also been looking for a black plate raytheon.

Tube testing starts this weekend. Let the cold war begin. Just like Josh said the cold war is heating up.

Have either of you guys tried out a Univalve? Or have you guys checked out the Mojave amps? The sound clips they have on their site and youtube kick ass.


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## ts31966

Marty what position do you like to put the 12BZ7 tube in? Have you experimented with gray plates vs black plates?


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## steelhorse

ts31966 said:


> My Jmp-1's I run through a Lexicon 284. It is a rackmount stereo EL84 poweramp. I also have 2 ADA MP1's modified by that clown at the ADA depot. They have plenty of gain and a tone of noise. I was going to sell them but feel embarrased to pass them on. What a mistake that was.
> 
> Don't get fooled into these wav files these guys post of their products. I would watch a few youtube videos done by regular guys of these products.
> 
> I think I am going to do one to show how noisey these ADA's are. Of course after I do they won't be worth much anymore. Unless I send them to Voodoo. Which I probably will have to to recover some of my loss.
> 
> I also have 2 5150 III halft stacks. They sound great and are very quiet. Even with the gain maxed on each channel. These are some of the quietest amps I have tried without a noise gate. I sometimes wonder if they built a noise gate into the head.
> 
> I was thinking about getting a Carvin TS100 for power but I don't need 100 watts. The thing I probably should do for tube experimenting is get 2 THD univalves. That way I could still be in stereo and be low wattage and swap tubes all at the same time.
> 
> What do you guys think of the yellow jackets (el84 adapters). I thought of using these on my 5150 III's. I have read some negative things about them.



Sell me one of your III's and you can use a portion of the proceeds to get a real EL-84 amp 

Nothing against YJ's and with all due respect to the users, there is no way especially with respect to a great high powered high gain amp would I install them into an EVH, especially a III or JMP for that matter.


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## ts31966

The Marshall JMP-1's are their preamps. I power them with a Lexicon 284 stereo poweramp. I am not sure why you think that is not a REAL el84 amp.

For not being real it sure cost alot of real money. 1,000 dollars when brand new. I didn't pay that for it but it is a great amp. 

Marty, I forgot to asky you about the tube testers that you think are good. What do you think of the amplitrex? Do any others have software for connection to a computer?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ts31966 said:


> Marty what position do you like to put the 12BZ7 tube in? Have you experimented with gray plates vs black plates?



I know, I know... I'm not Marty, but...

I've found that with most of the combinations that I've tried, the BZ7 seems to sit nicely in either V1 or V2, less so in V3 or V4...


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## joshuaaewallen

ts31966 said:


> ... Hell no I am not into techno-rock...


 Thank goodness. Now I know I can respect you.  j/k.


ts31966 said:


> ... Have either of you guys tried out a Univalve? Or have you guys checked out the Mojave amps? The sound clips they have on their site and youtube kick ass.



I think the sound clips are pretty cool too, but I haven't played one myself... No one around the Minneapolis area (that I know of) carries them. And that's too much $$$ to drop on an amp I've never plugged into.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> Marty, I forgot to asky you about the tube testers that you think are good. What do you think of the amplitrex? Do any others have software for connection to a computer?



Sorry about the mislabeling. Most guys on this forum have never had the gear you have, including me. I guess I could afford it, but I stick with what I have liked over the years. I damn sure like the Jacksons. (Although I'm to old to play one of those. The wildest guitar I have is an Explorer. You know what I mean? Some guitars are better looking on a younger guy and pretty stupid looking on an older guy.)

Tube testers: I really love the Amplitrex. When I first looked at it many months ago, I thought I might buy one. However, the power supply for plate voltage is limited to 500V. Now this takes care of 90 per cent of the power tubes, but what if you need to test a 6550, 8417, or a KT88. These tubes need up to 600V on the plates to do a proper test. The main thing I like about this tester is checking and matching triodes on 12xx7 type tubes and the fact you can actually listen to the tube for microphonics. However, the price is about a grand to high as far as I am concerned. The option to plot the curves of tubes is sort of whacky also. That's because most audio tubes will be ruler flat across the audio band, unless they have a serious flaw.

I've found that testing the tubes on my B and K and then following up with the tube in an actual circuit will verify that the tube does not have excessive hum or is microphonic. An old tube tester won't tell you this, it may say a tube is good and it will be microphonic. 

I think somewhere on this thread I told Josh about the better tube testers available. A B and K 700, 707 or 747. A Hickok tester (make sure it will test modern tubes like nine-pin.) Hickok also makes the TV-7 which is a military tube tester. I think they are okay, but they are hyped a lot and this made the price go up for them. I think the B and K's are laid out the best and the easiest to use. They have an awesome power supply for testing the bigger, octal base power tubes.

I looked online and I no longer see the digital tube tester that was available in a kit form. Apparently they went belly up.

I hope that I answered all of your questions. If not, I will reread the post and respond.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> Marty what position do you like to put the 12BZ7 tube in? Have you experimented with gray plates vs black plates?



Yes I have done some extensive tests in the past and again here recently. The black plate will dissipate heat faster than a gray plate. The black coating used to cover the nickle plates is much different than the coatings on the gray plates. 

Without getting into a lengthy post, let me just say that black plates tend to have stronger low mids and mids than a gray plate that tends to sing in the mids to upper mids. Go back and read my earlier post on swapping the BP in my amp. I stated that I felt it added 10 to 15Hz on the bottom end. It was just a much thicker sound. It would probably be better if I had a seven string baritone guitar. That would really let me know, but instead I just did a D drop and played a little in a D tuning. The BP has a lot of balls.

If I come across any exceptional tubes, I could be enticed to part ways with them. I will keep my eyes open for any stellar tubes on Ebay.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

ts31966 said:


> The Marshall JMP-1's are their preamps. I power them with a Lexicon 284 stereo poweramp. I am not sure why you think that is not a REAL el84 amp.



I've not messed with the JMP-1's. ADA's and boogie pre amps yes but not those but now I'm confused because you did after all broach the subject of the yellow jackets in the EVH III's which was what I was really wondering about and now you say the JMP's are actually really EL-84 amps and no question you know far more about those than me but if that's the case why even consider YJ's in the EVH III's?

To each his own but me personally, installing EL84's and YJ's in that great head would never have crossed my simple mind.


----------



## steelhorse

oh yeah and another thing, with all love and respect to Bob at Euro Tubes, I gotta disagree with his comparison of NOS and JJ's sounding the same. 

No way there's any iota of scientific or even common logic that would support that statement because each amp is different even within the series there are nuances and even tubes from the same batch with the same rating will have slight differences, on some level.

I love JJ's but I love good NOS tubes even more, problem is finding them right Marty, Joshua?


----------



## ts31966

First off, I never said I was going to put the yellow jackets in my 5150 III's. Where did I say that? Well? I asked Josh what he thought of them, that is it.

I might ask you how cow testicles taste but that doesn't mean I am planning on frying some up. 

Also the JMP-1's are marshall preamps. They do not take power tubes.

Getting back to tubes. I wasn't meaning for you Marty to tell us where the good deals on fleabay where. I watch ebay alot. 

The hard thing about ebay is there is so much scamming going on. Thanks bye the way with your store about the tubes you returned and then the guy was trying to resell them again.

I know what you are saying about the amplitrex. It is too expensive, but it seems to be the only option if you want to test alot of tubes quickly. Also I talked to a guy that has one. He said the the amplitrex finds bad tubes when regular tube testers say they are good. This guy I am talking about has some regular old style testers that are calibrated. He said the amplitrex is not always in agreement with them.

Another side not on tubes. I talked with Trace at Voodoo amps a couple of years ago on the subject of NOS tubes. He said that new amps were designed to work with current production lesser quality tubes. So NOS tubes would not give an improvement in tone. Well it seems, at least for your and Josh's experimenting that he was wrong. Can you imagine that, another expert in the field of guitar amps is wrong. Well if you go to his website you can see he is selling new production tubes. Hand picked by Voodoo.

I have read volumes on tubes and I can not get a straight answer on anything. It just seems that I am going to have to also test all of these myself. I can't wait to start. Thanks for the information you have given guys. I will give back what I find out. Hopefully we can get to the truth of which tubes are best for the Marshall sound.


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## steelhorse

Was this you?

_"What do you guys think of the yellow jackets (el84 adapters). I thought of using these on my 5150 III's. I have read some negative things about them."_

I know freaking pre amps don't take power tubes.

And you should try frying up some *BULL* testicles, _cows_ don't have em!

Enough of this tube nonsense I'm off to go make sense with someone who wouldn't pose ridiculous hypotheticals only to become offended when it gets questioned.


----------



## ts31966

Good, go away and never come back. You never added a single shred of usefull information on the subject anyway. Why were you joining in the thread? Just to make insulting comments. I forgot more about music gear than you will ever know.

Just to let you guys know. I ordered some mullard long plates with square getters for testing.

I also finally received some siemens ecc83's form germany that test very high according to the guy I bought them from.

I have ALOT of different tubes. I have been buying them for quite some time.


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## RiverRatt

I just scored some really cool tubes. I found an old box of tubes - some NOS, some used. They are mainly TV tubes, but so far I've found 2 new Raytheon 12AV7 black plates, two 6V6GTs (both appear to be G.E. black base, black glass). I also found an RCA side-getter 6FQ7/6CG7. The only circuits I've found that use this odd preamp tube are some old Ampeg and Gibson amps. If someone knows of another use for it, please let me know. I'm looking forward to trying out the Raytheons - I don't think I've ever used a 12AV7 - but I'm afraid they may be too low-gain to be any good in my Marshall.


----------



## steelhorse

That's a good one, " I forgot more about music gear than you will ever know." very presumptuous, I didn't realize you knew so much about me!

Anyway, to Josh, this isn't a diss at all about the YJ's, I think given certain applications they like attenuators etc. have their place and may actually work well so I have nothing, I repeat nothing against them nor did I imply I did.

Moving on, I am enjoying the discourse between members like Marty and Joshua and the others who are buying and trying an reporting their reviews here instead of simply, "I've got a huge collection" which imo adds nothing to this, but ok I'm happy for you, but the direction this thread had been going up to recently was excellent.

Hey River, what amp(s) are you planning on trying these tubes in?

I have a few NOS tubes but really have no direct access to tube testers and they just don't add anything to the amp, I think the guys in here have said and I agree that it really depends on the quality and the 'juice' that remains that makes the difference and where the magic is with the NOS tubes. Problem is finding them which is really why I'm following this thread.


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## ts31966

If you have nothing to add about tubes. Or the subject of tubes why do you post. Just to stir the pot. Right?

I never once asked you a question. Why? Because you don't even know that a MARSHALL JMP-1 is a preamp. I thought you were a marshall guy?

From your vast knowledge of BULL testicles I think you have more to add on that subject so go over to that forum.

By the way I thought you were leaving to join some other thread. Hurry up and do it. 

I don't have to presume you don't know what you are talking about in your posts it is obvious in your statements.

Yes I do have alot of different tubes. Does that mean something to you. I thought that the others would like to know that I have something to actually test. So that I have something constructive to add to this thread. Instead of just interjecting my worthless opinion.


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## RiverRatt

steelhorse said:


> Hey River, what amp(s) are you planning on trying these tubes in?
> 
> I have a few NOS tubes but really have no direct access to tube testers and they just don't add anything to the amp, I think the guys in here have said and I agree that it really depends on the quality and the 'juice' that remains that makes the difference and where the magic is with the NOS tubes. Problem is finding them which is really why I'm following this thread.



I have no idea what I'll do with these. I guess I need to pick up an old Fender for the 6V6GTs and find an old flip-top Ampeg for the 6CG7. What I really need is a tube tester. I'll probably try the 12AV7s in the Marshall, but I'm not expecting much. Every Raytheon black plate I've tried has sounded superb, but with a gain factor of 41 they probably will be too weak. They may find a home in one of my 5 watt amps. I have one that is too fizzy with a 12AX7.

I have so much crap lying around now that I'd love to try to build an amp. I have a cigar box full of old carbon comp resistors and a pretty good collection of orange drop caps, a decent power transformer and a couple of OTs, but so far I haven't gotten up the nerve to try it.


----------



## steelhorse

Awesome River, let us know what you wind up learning through the process. I may have to get a tester as well.


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## RiverRatt

One more thing (sorry for going off-topic, but there are a lot of tube people chiming in) - does anyone here speak date code? The two 6V6s are interesting, and a bit confusing. Both have identical black bases. The GE tube is marked 7-13 and under that 188-5. That means that tube was made in the 13th week of 1957 in Owensboro, KY, right? The other tube is Delco branded, is just a bit shorter than the GE, and has the code 322208. If I'm understanding my search results, this one is a Tung-Sol, made in the 20th week of 1958? 
The strange thing is, both tubes have 6V6GT etched into the glass inside a octagon (stop sign), which is Tung-Sol's trademark, right?
This is one of the many reasons I like RCAs and Mullards. No ambiguity - you know what you're looking at.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I have no idea what I'll do with these. I guess I need to pick up an old Fender for the 6V6GTs and find an old flip-top Ampeg for the 6CG7. What I really need is a tube tester. I'll probably try the 12AV7s in the Marshall, but I'm not expecting much. Every Raytheon black plate I've tried has sounded superb, but with a gain factor of 41 they probably will be too weak. They may find a home in one of my 5 watt amps. I have one that is too fizzy with a 12AX7.
> 
> I have so much crap lying around now that I'd love to try to build an amp. I have a cigar box full of old carbon comp resistors and a pretty good collection of orange drop caps, a decent power transformer and a couple of OTs, but so far I haven't gotten up the nerve to try it.



Hey RiverRatt, it's too bad that you found 12AV7's. They just do not have the necessary gain needed in your Marshall. Too bad you didn't find some 12DT7's in a black plate. That would have been a real find. Old TV sets can sometimes be a goldmine for audio tubes, especially if it is an old radio/phono/TV combo. I found an old 1954 GE combo and it had all Tung-Sol tubes in it, including the dual rectifier (5U4GB's). I scored two 12AX7's and three 12AT7's out of it and some other useful tubes as well, including the 5U4's. Even the newer tube sets had high quality Japanese tubes in them. I'm always keeping my eyes open for any old TV's. I also like to gut them and get all of the resistors and mica caps and other odd/old components as well as the wire.

If the 6V6's are smoke tops, you would be better off selling them on EBAY if they are good tubes.

Quote: "They may find a home in one of my 5 watt amps. I have one that is too fizzy with a 12AX7." Try a 5751. That would smooth it out.

Keep looking and keep searching. You never know what you might turn up.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

*Just A friendly Plea...*

Ok... Normally I try to refrain from profanity in a public forum, but...  Up until recently this thread has had a really great vibe, great information, and plenty of differing opinions coexisting peacefully. But as of late things have started to turn a wee bit sour. Actually downright hostile. Quite frankly, I think we can do better than that. So, without taking sides in any debate that may be going on, I simply would like to ask that a cease-fire be declared, and that we get back to the subject at hand... _Sharing_ info, input, ideas, theories, and whatever with regard to tubes and Marshall amps. That's why this thread was started, so lets keep it that way. Thanks guys!


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## solarburn

*Re: Just A friendly Plea...*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... Normally I try to refrain from profanity in a public forum, but...  Up until recently this thread has had a really great vibe, great information, and plenty of differing opinions coexisting peacefully. But as of late things have started to turn a wee bit sour. Actually downright hostile. Quite frankly, I think we can do better than that. So, without taking sides in any debate that may be going on, I simply would like to ask that a cease-fire be declared, and that we get back to the subject at hand... _Sharing_ info, input, ideas, theories, and whatever with regard to tubes and Marshall amps. That's why this thread was started, so lets keep it that way. Thanks guys!



Amen brother! Lets get on wit the tube talk. Marty gave me some sardines to experiment with. From the 60's. Anyways over the next couple of days I will try them out in the DSL and give a report. Marty's a good guy!

On a side note I picked up a Vox Night Train for some Voxy blues playing. Its a nice little lunch box. Lots of clean headroom. It has some good overdrive tones too. It is a loud 15 watter. Grant it I have it running through a K100 but it has alot of volume. I already changed out the EH 12AX7's(2)for 2 Tung Sols. I psycho that way. Not much of a difference with that change. Thinking about JJ EL84's now. 

Here's a quick question. It is a class A amp. I take it I don't have to bias this thing when I change power tubes? I don't have any info on that yet. End of side note.

PS- My Marshall breathes fire compared to the NT.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Tubes... Tubes... And More Glorious Tubes...*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... Marty gave me some sardines to experiment with. From the 60's. Anyways over the next couple of days I will try them out in the DSL and give a report. Marty's a good guy!


+1 on that one mate. Marty is tops on the forum in my opinion. (How's that for kissin' bum? ) Marty, if you are reading this, seriously, thanks for your generosity and the experience you bring to the forum. Rock on man!



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... On a side note I picked up a Vox Night Train for some Voxy blues playing. Its a nice little lunch box. Lots of clean headroom. It has some good overdrive tones too. It is a loud 15 watter. Grant it I have it running through a K100 but it has alot of volume. I already changed out the EH 12AX7's(2)for 2 Tung Sols. I psycho that way. Not much of a difference with that change. Thinking about JJ EL84's now.



On the EL84's I wouldn't know exactly what to recommended, however I do know that there is a lot of difference from one tube to the next. Back when I had my modded Valve Junior there was loads of difference in the EL84's that I tried. Everything from how early it would break up, to significant tonal differences. I'll bet Marty has some insight into this, I know he is an EL84 guy and really is lusting for Marshall to introduce a new EL84 powered monster...



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... Here's a quick question. It is a class A amp. I take it I don't have to bias this thing when I change power tubes? I don't have any info on that yet. End of side note.



Sorry mate, no idea.



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... PS- My Marshall breathes fire compared to the NT.



The Vox Night Train looks pretty cool. Unfortunately from what I've seen so far, it _looks_ (I haven't had a chance to play one yet) like one of those amps that likely sounds awesome in the hands of the right player, but would not suit my "playing style"*. So far, between, the Vox Night Train, the Orange Tiny Terror (which I have played), and the Marshall Haze... My interest is really peeked by the Haze.
_________________________________________________________
* When referring to my "playing style", what I mean is that I play most things in what one old timer that I knew called "the key of L". Why? Because as he put it... "It sure sounds like 'ell to me!"


----------



## solarburn

Thanks for the input Josh. I know what you mean about tube changes with the valve jr. I had the bitmo mod on mine and boy it sure sounded better with Tung Sol pre's and JJ EL84's. That's why I was wanting to try the JJ's in the NT.

I got the NT for a different take on my blues playing. Its voicing is definitely different from the Marshall's. Its so easy to pack around. I took it over to my buds place and we jammed and it really sat in the mix well. He wanted me to leave it but I have a little more tinkering to do with it before I do.

The main reason I passed on the Haze is I already have that Marshall vibe go'n on. I didn't need a lower watt version of it. Man did Doug Aldrich make that amp sound good in his vid! Love his playing. Besides I really dig my DSL50. So far it has given me everything I need for my playing. Its a keeper.

PS- I'll prolly have a Haze next year...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I did a lot of online researching and I couldn't find a thing about the bias question. Now I do know with VOX they sometimes market an amp as Class A when in fact it is a high AB. The Night Train can go from pentode to triode power on the EL84's. This usually means Class A and Class AB operation which means that the power tubes need to be biased. I looked at the owner's manual and it doesn't say a thing. I know nothing about VOX, other than I have played their top of the line stuff like an AC-30. It is possible that the amp is cathode biased and that means you can plug and play the power tubes. You would think the owner's manual would cover a critical topic like this. Did you buy the amp new? If so, maybe the music store knows the question. I have a Traynor all tube Custom 100 that plays in both pentode and triode modes and it must be biased. Better to know before changing out power tubes. I did see where V1 is the gain tube and V2 is the tone stack. It doesn't use a phase inverter, just two 12AX7s and two EL84's. Now that is simple. I looked at it for a while and I would say it is a nice little amp, bigger than a TT. And yes it is nice to be able to carry a 15 watt head up a flight of stairs versus the DSL50. I have an old 1972 Randall 150 watt amp that will break your balls just walking on a level floor. Man that thing is heavy. It makes my DSL401 seem like cotton candy.

Yes, EL84's are sort of like preamp power tubes. They are just a little taller and they have low output. However, depending on who made the tubes can mean a big difference in tone. They all will put out the same power, but the tone can vary wildly. I have three premium sets for my 401. RCA Black Plates,
RCA Gray Plates and Telefunken Gray Plates. In addition, I bought tubes direct from Russia to include premium 1967 Military EL84's. I think I have eight of those left. Of course you know I sold my old 1999 401 and have the cold biased 2006 model. I put a set of these Soviet missiles in my amp and biased them as hot as I could go and they sounded great, almost as much top end as the Telefunkens, but the Soviet's were meatier in the low end.

Well, I hope all is settled here on our tube rolling forum. I'm a hippie from the flower power days. Peace and love.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty... Ya beat me to it. I have been doing online research as well, trying to find out about what biasing procedure (if any) to use on a Night Train... I haven't found squat on the subject.

Like SolarBurn I too had a BitMo modded Valve Junior (although mine had various other mods as well (including a pentode/triode switch)... And fo sho there's major differences in EL84's...


----------



## solarburn

Yah guys I haven't been able to either. I joined the Vox forum just to get an answer but have not got a response yet. I'll email proguitarshop.com and see what they say. That's where I bought the amp.

Marty thanx for pointing out the pentode and triode modes as being class A or AB. I missed that. I didn't see anything stating its cathode biased either. It really would be nice to have this info in the manual. I suppose Vox thinks we might hurt ourselves with that kind of info. Nothing a disclaimer can't protect them from. Sheesh!


----------



## solarburn

Guys I just got an answer from Vox. The amp is cathode biased so I can plug em' in and play. I wanna try some JJ's first. Fun! Course I'll take any recommendations along the way he he.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Guys I just got an answer from Vox. The amp is cathode biased so I can plug em' in and play. I wanna try some JJ's first. Fun! Course I'll take any recommendations along the way he he.



Yeah! How's that for an educated guess? I would like to try one of those Night Train heads. What did you give for it, $499.99? That's not bad for a light, 15 watter. I would probably build me a custom half stack with four, Alpha 6 Eminence speakers. (They are the best six-inch speaker I have ever found. Unbelievable lows out of a six and of course great mid's and highs.)

Man, that cathode bias makes tube swapping a snap. All of my Peavey amps are cathode biased. Time to change the 6L6's? Pull 'em and replace 'em.

One note about cathode bias: When changing tubes, the manufacturer is assuming that you are installing a "matched pair" of tubes. Although this type of biasing can handle a small percentage of differences between tubes, it is best to use a set that is matched for best results.

I've been curious about that "Rebel" head with variable power up to twenty watts and can change on the fly between 6V6's and EL84's. That's a neat trick. If I didn't already have about 20 amps, maybe I could justify buying a "small" amp.

Well, it's the weekend. It's great to hear from everyone. I will probably post some more later.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah! How's that for an educated guess? I would like to try one of those Night Train heads. What did you give for it, $499.99? That's not bad for a light, 15 watter. I would probably build me a custom half stack with four, Alpha 6 Eminence speakers. (They are the best six-inch speaker I have ever found. Unbelievable lows out of a six and of course great mid's and highs.)
> 
> Man, that cathode bias makes tube swapping a snap. All of my Peavey amps are cathode biased. Time to change the 6L6's? Pull 'em and replace 'em.
> 
> One note about cathode bias: When changing tubes, the manufacturer is assuming that you are installing a "matched pair" of tubes. Although this type of biasing can handle a small percentage of differences between tubes, it is best to use a set that is matched for best results.
> 
> I've been curious about that "Rebel" head with variable power up to twenty watts and can change on the fly between 6V6's and EL84's. That's a neat trick. If I didn't already have about 20 amps, maybe I could justify buying a "small" amp.
> 
> Well, it's the weekend. It's great to hear from everyone. I will probably post some more later.
> 
> Marty



I will definitely use a matched set. I get tubes from Doug's and he tests them and burns em' in so I should be good to go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sold off most of my EL84's except for the three exotic sets I have and the Russian military EL84's. I will look around and see if I have any extras lying around, but I don't think so. To bad Ei isn't in business anymore. They made the best sounding modern EL84's. Let me know what you think of the JJ's. I think they make more than one type of EL84, but I may be wrong. 

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know it's funny. I went out and ran some errands and I came back home and decided to go on Ebay and look at 12AX7 tubes. I spent about thirty-five minutes doing this and then I had to start thinking about bidding. I had saved about 12 listings. Well the first batch of RCA black plates started low, but in 40 minutes had went over $140 so I wasn't interested in that. However, next up was a 1956 Sylvania gray plate that tested 129/130!!! Current bid was $11.50. I kid you not. With my trusty pocket watch and a deft move of my index finger, I was the winner at $15.50. (Five bucks to ship which is high, but oh well.)

The point I'm making is that I just won another ICBM for twenty bucks and I wasn't even trying. Ebay has sellers who list all of the new Tung-Sol and Mullard tubes and they want 20 bucks for one of those. Tomorrow, I will be bidding on some black plate Mullards (if they don't go sky high) and a lot of four JRC (Military) black plate 5751's. If they stay low, I'll bid on them, but I usually want 12AX7's. There are some other great deals on a pair of Telefunkens and a quad of Amperex (Holland made) 12AX7's.

I guess if you want to get your hands on some of these you will have to make time to do a little bidding during your time off. I think it's fun to use strategy to ensure a winning bid. My techniques give me around an 80 per cent chance on winning. I can't wait to get this old 1956 Sylvania. I know it's going to be a killer V1 or V2.

Cheers, Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know it's funny. I went out and ran some errands and I came back home and decided to go on Ebay and look at 12AX7 tubes. I spent about thirty-five minutes doing this and then I had to start thinking about bidding. I had saved about 12 listings. Well the first batch of RCA black plates started low, but in 40 minutes had went over $140 so I wasn't interested in that. However, next up was a 1956 Sylvania gray plate that tested 129/130!!! Current bid was $11.50. I kid you not. With my trusty pocket watch and a deft move of my index finger, I was the winner at $15.50. (Five bucks to ship which is high, but oh well.)
> 
> The point I'm making is that I just won another ICBM for twenty bucks and I wasn't even trying. Ebay has sellers who list all of the new Tung-Sol and Mullard tubes and they want 20 bucks for one of those. Tomorrow, I will be bidding on some black plate Mullards (if they don't go sky high) and a lot of four JRC (Military) black plate 5751's. If they stay low, I'll bid on them, but I usually want 12AX7's. There are some other great deals on a pair of Telefunkens and a quad of Amperex (Holland made) 12AX7's.
> 
> I guess if you want to get your hands on some of these you will have to make time to do a little bidding during your time off. I think it's fun to use strategy to ensure a winning bid. My techniques give me around an 80 per cent chance on winning. I can't wait to get this old 1956 Sylvania. I know it's going to be a killer V1 or V2.
> 
> Cheers, Marty



The Sylvania is from 1956? I can't wait to hear about this one. I can picture you ready to pounce your prey when the tubes are being displayed. You definitely know your tubes man and good job at scoring them. I have never used ebay! Really without a tester I wouldn't just cause I can't tell how good the tube is. Again you have a great set up go'n Marty! I am now learning about NOS tubes. I wasn't even interested before this thread.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sold off most of my EL84's except for the three exotic sets I have and the Russian military EL84's. I will look around and see if I have any extras lying around, but I don't think so. To bad Ei isn't in business anymore. They made the best sounding modern EL84's. Let me know what you think of the JJ's. I think they make more than one type of EL84, but I may be wrong.
> 
> Marty



I only see one model JJ listed so far as far as the EL84's go. I"ll let you know how they do. Should be here in a week. If you ever do come across something let me know and I would gladly buy them from you too. Keep me in mind. I put the Tung Sol pre's in the NT and I can't really say I heard much if anything different from the EH's that were in it. Will see how changing the power tubes goes.

This one sounds interesting but expensive:

The RFT EL84 tube is a rugged tube that was made in East Germany in the '70's. This EL84 tube is clear and detailed without being bright or etched. The RFT EL84 tends to overdrive easy making it a good choice for hard rock and blues. $65 for a matched pair.

The reissue Gold Lion sounds interesting too but may be to wide to fit in the NT:

Clean tones are chimey and sparkling with single coil pickups and a bit darker with humbuckers. The overdrive on these tubes is smoooth. No gritty, raspy tones, the tubes have just the right amount of compression to track with the overdrive and keep it beautifully controlled while blooming nicely as the note fades out. This produces a very nice organic sustain. "These tubes have a slightly larger diameter than other EL84 tubes so they can not be used in Marshall DSL201 or DSL401 amplifiers, or reissue Vox AC15 amps.


----------



## CTC1960

I also have a TSL122 as well and my reverb has stopped working. Looking at this thread, my guess is that the reveb runs through v4. I have checked all of the connections and they are good. Also, the problem is on and off and usually occurs after the amp has warmed up. There are times when I begin playing the amp and the reverb works for awhile, but then it quits after the amp is nice and warm. Any thoughts?

Thank you, Chris


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... Really without a tester I wouldn't just cause I can't tell how good the tube is. Again you have a great set up go'n Marty! I am now learning about NOS tubes. I wasn't even interested before this thread.



Big time +1 on SolarBurn's comments! Thanks to this thread I am sooooo very interested in NOS tubes, but having no tester I am trepidatious when it comes to buying...

I'm a wee bit bummed... My beloved 12BZ7 that I got from you Marty... Is going bad...  I replaced my power tubes*, re-biased, and discovered exactly where that rattling sound I have lately been hearing _through my speakers_ was coming from... The 12BZ7. Color me sad. 
___________________________________________________

*I'll post my report on the power tube replacement over on the Yellow Jacket thread as soon as I get a chance. (see below)
___________________________________________________



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... If you ever do come across something let me know and I would gladly buy them from you too. Keep me in mind.



I'd like to jump on that bandwagon if I could... :eek2:



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Ok... Here's the scoop...


 For those of you that are following the Yellow Jacket / Power Tube saga... click on the little blue arrow next to my name in the above quote...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I only see one model JJ listed so far as far as the EL84's go. I"ll let you know how they do. Should be here in a week. If you ever do come across something let me know and I would gladly buy them from you too. Keep me in mind. I put the Tung Sol pre's in the NT and I can't really say I heard much if anything different from the EH's that were in it. Will see how changing the power tubes goes.
> 
> This one sounds interesting but expensive:
> 
> The RFT EL84 tube is a rugged tube that was made in East Germany in the '70's. This EL84 tube is clear and detailed without being bright or etched. The RFT EL84 tends to overdrive easy making it a good choice for hard rock and blues. $65 for a matched pair.
> 
> The reissue Gold Lion sounds interesting too but may be to wide to fit in the NT:
> 
> Clean tones are chimey and sparkling with single coil pickups and a bit darker with humbuckers. The overdrive on these tubes is smoooth. No gritty, raspy tones, the tubes have just the right amount of compression to track with the overdrive and keep it beautifully controlled while blooming nicely as the note fades out. This produces a very nice organic sustain. "These tubes have a slightly larger diameter than other EL84 tubes so they can not be used in Marshall DSL201 or DSL401 amplifiers, or reissue Vox AC15 amps.


**********************************************************

Joe: I just sent you an email via your personal email. I looked through more of my tubes and I did find a very rare and exciting set. Check your email for more info. If you are interested in my terms, let me know.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

I'm a wee bit bummed... My beloved 12BZ7 that I got from you Marty... Is going bad... I replaced my power tubes*, re-biased, and discovered exactly where that rattling sound I have lately been hearing through my speakers was coming from... The 12BZ7. Color me sad.
***********************************************************
***********************************************************

I was over at your other place for a while, but thought that I would come over and talk about the BZ7. To me, it seems as if maybe the amp just doesn't like them installed permanently. Some circuits place different voltages on the BZ7 over what an AX7 would see. Since it has less plate resistance, maybe it is getting hotter than it should? However, in all of my old reference materials, a BZ7 is listed as a replacement/substitute for an AX7. Who am I to argue with all of these old books? The AX7 is a lot older tube than a BZ7. I don't think the BZ's were around until the early 60's. 

One thing on EBAY that you see a lot. "SOLD AS IS/NO RETURNS." (This gives you a real secure feeling when placing that bid.) I guess I could send you another and if it goes bad, then it goes back to what I said a long time ago with BZ7 #1, "the amp doesn't like them." And I'd hate to see good tubes go bad if it is indeed the amp that is eating them. I'll let you make the call on this one.

Well ole Solar Panel (he-he) is really cooking with fire.The guy must be a zillionaire going out and getting himself a new lunchbox. I wish I had a little lunchbox like that. I'd stick it full of groovy tubes (no, not those junkie Groove Tubes). I'd make it learn to wail and scream.

I can't wait to hear about it. Little amps like that are perfect to A/B tubes. I mean you have two pre's and two power tubes. Take V1 and change it out, you are going to hear things right away. V2 is the tone stack and a nice tube in there is going to make a big difference. Some nice USA NOS power tubes..."WHAM!"...you can hear the tone of the tubes. Big amps have all sorts of circuits that can disguise the tone of the tubes, but little amps, well they are sort of like a tube tester. They can sort out the good tubes from the bad. 

I would love to have a NT just so I could put the ICBM and the BP in the tone stack. Super charge it with some hot American made EL84's and I'd be off to the races. (I still would have to build a 4 by 6 custom speaker cab. That would be "tits!" (As they say in California.)

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing from Joe and I hope it is all good. I don't like bad news, just fun, happy stuff.


----------



## solarburn

I'm here guys. Sorry to hear Josh that 1 is a rattler. I just changed out a Penta 12AX7 that had a rattle. It was in the Marshall. Its a Chinese version of a 9th generation Shuguang. It happens. Maybe there's a reason for it like Marty's saying or it just went bad.

Looks like me and Marty are going to be experimenting with the " Lunch Box" a little. Sexy it up with some nice NOS power tubes. Gonna be fun to hear what happens. I'll be mess'n around with some more 12AX7's in the mean time and see what kind of tone changes I hear and feel. I've got some NOS thanx to Marty and some current stock too. They will work in the Marshall and NT. Lots of fun! 

I agree the NT hides nothing when you play it. It shows ya whats go'n on and what ain't happening. Its raw and cutting and sits well in the mix with my fellow blues-er. I like it so far and we still got room to tweek.

I think I may get Vox's matching cab when it comes out if I have money he he. It will have a GB in it and I think that would go well with it. The K100 actually sounds good with it as well. I'm glad I had something on hand that was decent to demo these tube changes and hear the NT with.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I am taking a leap of faith (having no tester), I found a vintage 1955 GE 12BZ7 on eBay that I won, that supposedly tests 103/103. I'll have a go at that and see what happens. One way or another we'll figure out if it's the tube, or if my TSL just eats BZ7's...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Try to get real used to what the NT sounds like, cuz when it gets shodded with the RCA BP's, I want you to say, "Wow, I really can hear the difference!"

Also, you can stick two USA NOS in V1 and V2 in your DSL and try out the other two in the NT. The Magnavox should be plenty strong for the tone stack in the NT (V2). Plus like you said, you have other 12AX7's as well.

If you lived next door (sheesh!) I would make you a custom cabinet. I have a s**tload of speakers right now and I'm working out a deal with Eminence for my very own speaker that I want to call a V123. As you know, I sent Eminence a couple of old JBL D123's. They did all sorts of tests and they are going to try and replicate that speaker for me. I'll be the only one who can sell it. A D123 has huge bottom end and twice the highs of a regular guitar speaker. If you use effects, it's the only way to rock. Anyway, I see a single D123 in a tuned box with the NT sitting on top of it. That, or the 4 by 6 custom cabinet I keep talking about. (He-he!)

Well, at least I got my new toy (2009 Explorer) to play with and of course the screamin' price I got it for$875. It has the 500 in the bridge and it will literally torch the front end of my amps. (I don't have any active pickup guitars anymore. Just didn't need what they did...more gain!)

See you later, Joe.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Josh, let me know what you want to do regarding the BZ7. I'll send you another, but if it goes bad, you will have to call the experiment off. As I told you, combos are real nasty on tubes, because of the speakers and the heat buildup. The tubes are being vibrated by the sound of music. The BZ7's have long plates and this makes it even worse. As I have said, maybe the BZ7 would work great in a TSL100. 

When I sent #1 back to the seller, he ended up sending me a Philco BZ7. Would you like to try that one on for size? Let me know. I think I still have our reusable shipping box. 

Talk to you later, Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> I am taking a leap of faith (having no tester), I found a vintage 1955 GE 12BZ7 on eBay that I won, that supposedly tests 103/103. I'll have a go at that and see what happens. One way or another we'll figure out if it's the tube, or if my TSL just eats BZ7's...



So much for my theory that BZ7's were made in the 60's. Well you beat me by one year. I just got that 1956 Sylvania AX7 and now you go and get a 1955 BZ7. I posted on the thread asking what you wanted to do about the BZ7. I have a Philco that you can try if you want. Let me know.

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> So much for my theory that BZ7's were made in the 60's. Well you beat me by one year. I just got that 1956 Sylvania AX7 and now you go and get a 1955 BZ7. I posted on the thread asking what you wanted to do about the BZ7. I have a Philco that you can try if you want. Let me know.
> 
> Marty


I reckon from the tone standpoint I'd love to try that puppy out... But one at a time... If I burn up two in a row the odds don't seem too good on number three surviving... Let's keep the idea out there and see how it goes... hey... Marty, have you used the 12BZ7's in your TSL combo, or just in heads? Josh = Curious...

So... Tubes with a shortplate design are better in combos?


----------



## RiverRatt

This has been a great week for finding tubes. After reading the posts about EL84s, I went out looking for tubes again today, and added a 6BQ5, a 5U4GB, another 6CG7 and a cool electronics dictionary from the '60s to my collection. The best thing - I have a grand total of $3.29 in this week's acquisitions. 

If anyone can help with an ID - I think the 6BQ5 is a Sylvania. Does anyone recognize it?


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## MartyStrat54

Hey, first off I dig the book! That is a nice one and it will come in handy.

If the printing is all gone on the tube look at the etched markings. If it says:

6BQ5
USA
* *
*

Then it is a Sylvania. If it doesn't have the above markings, let me know what the markings are. If the number is in a long octal design, then it is an RCA. Only a few manufacturer's had logos etched in the glass with the printed logos. The print varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. Some would wipe off when new and others could take repeated wipings. The main thing is whether or not the tube is any good? Even if it isn't, the book is worth what you spent.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> I reckon from the tone standpoint I'd love to try that puppy out... But one at a time... If I burn up two in a row the odds don't seem too good on number three surviving... Let's keep the idea out there and see how it goes... hey... Marty, have you used the 12BZ7's in your TSL combo, or just in heads? Josh = Curious...
> 
> So... Tubes with a shortplate design are better in combos?



Yeah, I told you a while back that the shorter plates are more rigid and handle vibration better. The three GE's I "had" in my 122 were short plates.

As I stated earlier, I personally have never used a BZ7, I just knew people who did. I actually bought six of the Westinghouse's on a special buy on the side from a guy I buy tubes from. I had every intention of trying them in an amp. I did research, posted on forums and talked to some other techs. The main thing I learned was a lot of people were in fact using BZ7's in their amps in place of AX7's. I had my TSL100 and 122 already tweaked with NOS tubes and I didn't feel I needed to disturb that, so I thought about trying one in a 602 or my 401, but never got around to doing it. So, I have no real experience at this point with using BZ7's.

Well, I bought my last tubes for a while...I think. Man is it easy to spend money on tubes. I have more tubes than amps and right now. I will be taking out an NOS tube and replacing it with an NOS tube. I think it's safe to turn the burner down for a while. My latest acquisition is a set of four Amperex 12AX7's made in Holland. Also known as "Bugle Boy" on their older tubes. Amperex is rated as one of the best tubes to use in your preamp section. They are right up there in the legends category. Well, I got me four of them and I may just put all of them in my 122 and see how she rolls! How do you like them apples? These ran a little higher than the six Mullards for $69 (what a deal!) These four ran me $83 dollars. Still a good deal when you consider that they are still trying to sell one Ei 12AX7 for $23.50 and "$7.95" to ship. With that in mind, twenty something a tube isn't bad at all.

However, I will test some more and try them out with some early ZZ Top. I will use the 122 as my test amp, since I am suddenly playing it a lot more than in the past (like never). I have been itching to try some of the high octane tubes in one of my 602 amps. I already used the ICBM and the BP in the 401 and it was fantastic. I think what I am going to do is leave the 7025 in V1 and put the hot 1956 Sylvania I bought in V2 in the 401 and have myself a little high gain bandit. It's so much easier to lug around. Well, I did get all of my Mullards tested and marked for I.D. That way I know which one is which. Two of the Mullards were very strong and the other four tested as new. I can't wait to test the Amperex, as the seller uses the same type of tester as I do. 

Well, I think there should be a lot of test results on this thread come Wednesday or Thursday. What do you say?

Marty


----------



## Seannnn

hey everyone ... yes i am new to the forum.....it's retubing time for me and i am wondering....i have the DSL 100 JCM 2000.....if i order new preamp tubes will the people know to send me the inverted phase preamp tube with the order or does it matter...are they all the same anyway.....i already know that i want the GTAX7M from Groove Tube......can someone help......hope i don't seem too new to the forum...lol


----------



## Seannnn

ummm that is GT12AX7M's....ooops hehe


----------



## solarburn

Seannnn said:


> hey everyone ... yes i am new to the forum.....it's retubing time for me and i am wondering....i have the DSL 100 JCM 2000.....if i order new preamp tubes will the people know to send me the inverted phase preamp tube with the order or does it matter...are they all the same anyway.....i already know that i want the GTAX7M from Groove Tube......can someone help......hope i don't seem too new to the forum...lol



I subscribe to the idea of using a balanced tube for the PI. Others will say it doesn't matter. So if you want a balanced 12AX7 for the PI you just specify one of the preamp tubes to be balanced triodes. There is usually a choice for that when ordering. Otherwise don't worry about it and just order which ever preamp tubes you want to try.


----------



## Seannnn

thanks


----------



## solarburn

Seannnn said:


> thanks



Anytime and welcome to the family here!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Seannnn said:


> hey everyone ... yes i am new to the forum.....it's retubing time for me and i am wondering....i have the DSL 100 JCM 2000.....if i order new preamp tubes will the people know to send me the inverted phase preamp tube with the order or does it matter...are they all the same anyway.....i already know that i want the GTAX7M from Groove Tube......can someone help......hope i don't seem too new to the forum...lol



Welcome to the forum! Your adventures in using new production tubes is potentially a great addition to this discussion, as you may have noticed this thread has _almost_ exclusively revolved around NOS and used vintage tubes. We would love to hear some feedback on new tubes since, as Marty always reminds us, NOS tubes won't be around forever!



solarburnDSL50 said:


> I subscribe to the idea of using a balanced tube for the PI. Others will say it doesn't matter. So if you want a balanced 12AX7 for the PI you just specify one of the preamp tubes to be balanced triodes. There is usually a choice for that when ordering. Otherwise don't worry about it and just order which ever preamp tubes you want to try.



I would have to say that solarburn is probably right. I've only been rolling tubes for a short time now, so my experience is limited, but V4 does seem to be sensitive to what goes into it. In my amp if it's not a nice stable tube then the amp can get noisy fast...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> If it says:
> 
> 6BQ5
> USA
> * *
> *
> 
> Then it is a Sylvania.
> 
> Marty



Thanks Marty!
Yes, the markings are exactly like that. It's good to know for sure what it is. I don't have any way to test it other than using it, so I put it in my Blackheart Little Giant last night along with a Tung-Sol RI preamp tube and it roars.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks Marty!
> Yes, the markings are exactly like that. It's good to know for sure what it is. I don't have any way to test it other than using it, so I put it in my Blackheart Little Giant last night along with a Tung-Sol RI preamp tube and it roars.



Well, as I told Joe (Solar) who just picked up the VOX Night Train, those little tube amps are like tube checkers. They are so simple in design that if you put a bad tube in it, it will let you know right away. I'm glad it's a keeper.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Seannnn said:


> hey everyone ... yes i am new to the forum.....it's retubing time for me and i am wondering....i have the DSL 100 JCM 2000.....if i order new preamp tubes will the people know to send me the inverted phase preamp tube with the order or does it matter...are they all the same anyway.....i already know that i want the GTAX7M from Groove Tube......can someone help......hope i don't seem too new to the forum...lol



Welcome to the forum Sean! Without sounding like an arse, I have to say that I am not much of a fan of Groove Tubes. This is because they take other tubes and "rebrand" them as Groove Tubes. GT is not a manufacturer of vacuum tubes, so it buys all of their tubes, usually from Russia. You can go to the Tube Store online and see what they say about Groove Tubes, Ruby and Fender tubes. They are all relabled tubes. 

What does this mean to you? Well, you can get the same tubes for less money by just buying Sovtek, Svetlana or JJ/Tesla. Now GT does have a few tubes "made to their specifications," but I doubt if they are jaw droppers. They probably sound just like a Sovtek 12AX7W-LPS. 

Take some time and go to the Tube Depot and the Tube Store for comments on a variety of 12AX7 tubes. A real "sleeper" is the Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 (EH-12AX7) currently on sale at the Tube Store for $11.95 each. It has a fantastic write up and works solidly in all four positions. My next pick would be the Tung-Sol's and then the Sovtek-LPS. I have four of the EH's and I am currently using them in an all tube Hi Fi amp with great success.

I'm just passing this info on to you and you can take it however you want to. I just didn't want you to think GT's were something special.

As far as the phase inverter (V4) goes, I was taught that it needs to be balanced, but now research shows this isn't the case. "However," if you feel you want a balanced tube in that position, you can sure order one and go that route.

Marty


----------



## YMI5150?

Alright, I'm jumping in. New to the tube scene and this has been overwhelming...but very cool to read. I'm an engineer/tinkerer so I'm liable to get totally sucked in along with you guys.

I've got a TSL601 with unknown upgrades. I am an early VH tone chaser and get the whole tone in the hands thing.

I do believe that I can make some changes to my setup to get that clean yet crunchy sound that Ed, Warren, G Lynch, Angus all had back in the day. I'm beginning to search for a half stack to help out but am hoping that you can summarize all this testing into a few preamp tube winners. I started a thread on 601 upgrades and Marty had great input but I could use a little more direction (which brand 12Ax7 black plate?, what test results to look for, etc.). You mentioned some having more sensitivity to vibration and not being a good choice for a combo. 

I'm also hearing that I should leave the power side of things alone until after these mods are done and re-evaluate. Concur? 

I am like you Josh, I don't turn it up much past 2-3 very often. Hopefully there's a decent solution at lower volumes...

Any chance of putting together an executive summary for an ongoing tone chasing project? Like a progress report so-to-speak...

I'll post feedback once I get a few to try out.

Cheer and this is awesome. Keep it up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

YMI5150? said:


> Alright, I'm jumping in. New to the tube scene and this has been overwhelming...but very cool to read. I'm an engineer/tinkerer so I'm liable to get totally sucked in along with you guys.
> 
> I've got a TSL601 with unknown upgrades. I am an early VH tone chaser and get the whole tone in the hands thing.
> 
> I do believe that I can make some changes to my setup to get that clean yet crunchy sound that Ed, Warren, G Lynch, Angus all had back in the day. I'm beginning to search for a half stack to help out but am hoping that you can summarize all this testing into a few preamp tube winners. I started a thread on 601 upgrades and Marty had great input but I could use a little more direction (which brand 12Ax7 black plate?, what test results to look for, etc.). You mentioned some having more sensitivity to vibration and not being a good choice for a combo.
> 
> I'm also hearing that I should leave the power side of things alone until after these mods are done and re-evaluate. Concur?
> 
> I am like you Josh, I don't turn it up much past 2-3 very often. Hopefully there's a decent solution at lower volumes...
> 
> Any chance of putting together an executive summary for an ongoing tone chasing project? Like a progress report so-to-speak...
> 
> I'll post feedback once I get a few to try out.
> 
> Cheer and this is awesome. Keep it up!



Wow! Great to see ya over here in the mecca of Tube Mechanics 101.

I think it would be sort of difficult to condense these seven pages into a couple of paragraphs. I will however try to answer your questions. 

First off, I think I already gave you some advice on the differences between open and closed back cabinets. The 601 is the same as my 602, but it only has one 12 and that ain't gonna do it. I actually think you should get a good 2 by 12 cab, before doing any tube tweaking, but that's just my opinion. You will get immediate bass response with an extra 12, so think about that.

Black Plate tubes were only made by a few manufacturers. Other manufacturers bought these tubes and put their labels on them. The most sought after BP is the RCA. These tubes exhibit a punchier mid sound to them. Guitars are basically tenor instruments, so you are looking at low-mid's up to mid-highs. If you want a punchier mid, the BP is the way to go. The other manufacturer that I like for BP's is Raytheon. They made really good tubes in their day.

And yes, preamp tubes have long, medium and short plates. The shorter the plate, the more rigid the plate structure. This translates into less vibration and microphonics. Some manufacturer's made tubes that were "ruggedized" and were capable of taking more vibration, regardless of plate length. Combo amps are very hard on preamp tubes and when picking NOS or current production, it is best to buy the one's with medium or short plates. I have recently gone against this in my quest for tone by using tubes that have longer plates, but astronomical gain. If I ruin them, I'll blame Josh and Joe.

Yes, I would try and get a better cabinet, then play with the preamp tubes and then, if necessary, change the power tubes. Power tubes do sound different, but it can be a subtle change most of the time. If you have good, trained ears, you should be able to hear the nuances of the different brands of power tubes. Here again I will note that Black Plate power tubes are highly desirable, but are damn near impossible to find in an EL34. RCA made some BP 6CA7's in the 50's and they go for about $200 a piece when available and that is out of my price range even for two.

If you do not play very loud, it would be advantageous to have higher gain preamp tubes so your window of sound shaping is larger at lower volumes. When I switched over to the super high gain 12AX7's, it was astonishing to discover that I had a lot more tweaking capabilities with my amp. My tone controls sort of jumped out at me. My sound between the pre and the master was different. I think one hot tube is all you really need and I have the best luck putting it in V2 (just my opinion). "If" the high gainer lasts in my combo, then I will consider putting the BP back in there with it. That produces a one-of-a-kind sound. Otherwise I may just put bot of them into my TSL100.

If you can spend the time to read all of the pages, you'll see that there is a lot of info being hammered out. I know that it is a lot of reading, but I go back and reread certain parts all of the time. You got in at a good time, because Joe, Josh and myself will all be posting new info. I have been using my TSL122 as a test bed, because Josh has the same amp and it sort of gives us some experimental credibility. However, I do have several 602's and I might try some tubes in it. However, both amps have speaker mod's and they are already fitted with NOS USA tubes, so they're really not stock 602's.

Once again, welcome to the thread.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty is right on about the closed back cab. I briefly had a TSL601 before I bought my DSL. The DSL/4x12 combination was the tone I've been looking for the last 30 years. The TSL combo sounded good, but just not quite what I was looking for. To be fair though, I never tried it with a closed-back cab. I'm like you YMI5150, I usually don't get the volume up over 3 or 4, and IMHO the GTEL34M is the best-sounding new EL34 I've tried. They are great at bedroom volume, and only get better as you crank them up. I'm still sold on my RCA side-getter preamp tubes, but this thread has given me a lot of new ideas to try out. 
If you want a great deal on a 2x12 cab, check out Avatar. You can get a nice Marshall-style cab with whatever flavor of Celestions you want for under 4 bills.


----------



## YMI5150?

Wow you guys are 2 cool. thanks for the advice. I like the 2x12 idea. I found a 1960B 4x12 on Craigslist for $350 but doubt its still available.

the 601 is already a bit too inconvenient to move so adding a cabinet won't bother me. I'll start looking around.

"Greenbacks" have what real P/N when looking around?

Cheers,

Kevin

P.S. I'll try to attach a pic of my babies. I've spent the last year making my own guitars, starting of course with the Frank and recently the EBMM. Currently it's the only area that I can reciprocate knowledge...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is an except from my last round of tube swapping:

I then took a Mullard (that we'll call M1) that measured very stout and replaced the BP with it. There was a slight drop in the "big gain" sensation, but not much as this tube tested 104/106. Some of the bottom end that I liked went away, but still not bad. The clean was very chimey and touch harmonics would just ring like a door bell. Swapping the M1 and the ICBM made a difference on total gain characteristics. The clean channel was more creamier sounding (and some people prefer this). However, this arrangement made the number 2 and 3 channels awesome. I was able to crank the pre up harder. So now I am thinking maybe the ICBM should be in V2 with a Mullard in V1. However, I put the RCA 7025 back into V1 and "Wow!" what a sound. This is how I finally left it.

RCA 1961 7025-V1
RCA/Mullard 1964 12AX7-V2
GE 1959 12AX7-V3
GE 1959 12AX7-V4

Today I took all of these tubes out and brought in two RCA Black Plates. These are the 12AX7WA's. These tubes tested below 100, but above 92. Still would be considered NOS. Also in the mix are two GE Black Plates. One tests hot and the other tests lower, but still is good. So, we are going to go all BP on this test. I put the strongest RCA WA in V1 (94/96). Then I put GE1 in V2 (106/108). I then put GE2 (92/94) in the tone stack and WA2 (87/84) in the phase inverter position, V4.

Turn amp on. TSL122. I play a little and does it sound good. I can tell that I have a stout tube in V2, just because of the way the pre/post controls act. Again, the tone controls are very sensitive and that would be from the solid GE BP in the tone stack. These tubes give a very, shall I say darker, bluesy tone. The low mid's are very thick and this appears to be covering up some of the highs. My Man O' War speakers are sparkly and chimey, but these tubes have smoothed out the high end of the speakers. If I boost the highs, I get them, but I think it takes away some of the overall sound quality by bringing in some hiss. Not much, but I can hear it with my ears. (54 year old thrashed out ears.) 

Conclusion: Too many BP's. The sound was good, but not what I'm after. My prior experiments have proved that one, maybe two BP's is the magic number.

Left V1 and V2 as is and put in the short plate GE's (that I originally had in the 122). Turn on amp. Much better. Now she is balanced again sound wise. I'm back to having that great blend of tone and controls. Gee, those little GE short plates sound good. Maybe that's why I had them in there in the first place.

Left V1 and V2 as is and put in the M1 and M2 Mullards. The M1 is a stout one so this puts a stout tube in V2 (GE1) and V3 (M1). Turn on amp. The hot tube in the tone stack doesn't really do much to the overall gain. It sounds good though. I take M1 and put it in V1 and I take WA1 and put it in the tone stack. Wow, what a difference. She's big and ballsy now. The WA sounds great in V3. Great overall "chime" to the sound. My speakers are perky and brighter sounding. Yeah, this is a good tube set up. I really like the sound.

V1-Mullard High Gain-M1-Medium Gray Plate
V2-GE High Gain-GE1-Medium Black Plate
V3-RCA 12AX7WA-WA1-Medium Black Plate
V4-RCA 12AX7WA-WA2-Medium Black Plate

I don't think the phase inverter cares whether it has a black or gray plate. With this in mind, I really only had two BP's in the active positions. Just like my other setting (see far above), I now have a gray plate in V1, but it is a hotter, high gain tube. Not so much as the ICBM or the Raytheon BP, but still pretty hot. The GE1 is an above average high gain tube as well. So it seems like I'm the happiest when I have two high gain tubes in V1 and V2.

Side Note: I measured 14, 12AX7's that were all made in Russia. Only two of them measured with above average gain. The rest were "new" tubes that just barely tested good on my B and K. This is a pretty good test result of what to expect when buying "new" tubes. They test good, but do you think you will hear a difference in your amp between "new" tubes and USA NOS tubes that are measuring 142? Sure, not all are that stout, but most of the tubes I am buying are in the 92 range. That beats the hell out of a 72.

Closing note: I am awaiting more tubes. Yes I broke down and I have bid and won more tubes. I'm still not done yet. However, in the bank are two more Black Plate GE's. One is super strong and the other is just good on one side and strong on the other (40/32 and 52/32).<Different tube tester than mine.
Also, I have the four Amperex tubes coming and my latest big buy was a lot of four RCA and four Sylvania's for $83 bucks, or just over 10 bucks a tube. I am aslo bidding on mor black plates. One of the lots of six tubes just went up while I was typing in this info. Maybe too high. There is a pair I'm looking at as well.

Once I get those Amperex tubes tested, I will be doing tests with them adding them into the mix. They are supposed to be some of the very best tubes made in Holland back in the day.

I also am going to have to come up with my own grading system for all of these tubes. I just ordered 100 white cardboard tube boxes for 12AX7/EL84 type tubes. I will be going back through my tubes and grading them for balance and power. I think if they are over 110, I'll call them "supers" and 90 to 109 will be "high gainers. 70 to 89 will be "regulars."

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

So Marty... When do you hang out a shingle, and open your doors to the public as a tube tester extraordinaire?   A sort of "have tube, will test" kinda thing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> So Marty... When do you hang out a shingle, and open your doors to the public as a tube tester extraordinaire?   A sort of "have tube, will test" kinda thing?



Well over at the "other thread," I left you an open invitation for a free tube check up on the EL84's and I would even pay the return postage. I know, I know, a couple of bucks is a big thing nowadays.

I also left the door open if you are interested in a nice low price on a pair of the 1967 Russian EL84's. Let me know.

Remember, besides trying to get cabinets sold, I do about ten tube amps a week. Some of these tubes will find quick homes if you know what I mean. Most of the stuff I do is just cleanings and tube upgrades and bias. I rarely get a burned up mess and when I do, I let them know whether I will be able to fix it or not. I actually did tube amps in the military. Then I got back into tube hi fi. Then working on hi fi amps and such. Then it bled over to guitar amps and there you have it. I do have an adequate amount of test equipment, so I can troubleshoot more serious damage. It's just that there is quicker money doing cleanings and tube upgrades and biasing. I have some customers who drive over 50 miles to get me to tweak their amps. I also have nine cabinets to plug into, including two of my VersaCabs. Right now I am trying to get Ampeg interested in making the VersaCab. It's been 30 days and I haven't heard back from them as of yet. I'm working with Eminence speakers on my V123 speaker. They are finally getting to the next phase of testing. They will be my exclusive speaker for any of my cabinets. With all that is going on, the Ampeg deal is the most important to me. Being single gives me a lot more time to do things I need to do. Anyways, I'm always happy to help you out anyway that I can.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well over at the "other thread," I left you an open invitation for a free tube check up on the EL84's and I would even pay the return postage. I know, I know, a couple of bucks is a big thing nowadays.
> 
> I also left the door open if you are interested in a nice low price on a pair of the 1967 Russian EL84's. Let me know....


... Speaking of the other thread... I was having trouble w/ my ISP, so I only now was able to get my reply posted... In a nutshell, there's pics of the tubes that THD includes w/ the YJ's... 

I would like to take you up on that... If it's not too much trouble...




MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Remember, besides trying to get cabinets sold, I do about ten tube amps a week. Some of these tubes will find quick homes if you know what I mean. Most of the stuff I do is just cleanings and tube upgrades and bias. I rarely get a burned up mess and when I do, I let them know whether I will be able to fix it or not. I actually did tube amps in the military. Then I got back into tube hi fi. Then working on hi fi amps and such. Then it bled over to guitar amps and there you have it. I do have an adequate amount of test equipment, so I can troubleshoot more serious damage. It's just that there is quicker money doing cleanings and tube upgrades and biasing. I have some customers who drive over 50 miles to get me to tweak their amps. I also have nine cabinets to plug into, including two of my VersaCabs. Right now I am trying to get Ampeg interested in making the VersaCab. It's been 30 days and I haven't heard back from them as of yet. I'm working with Eminence speakers on my V123 speaker. They are finally getting to the next phase of testing. They will be my exclusive speaker for any of my cabinets. With all that is going on, the Ampeg deal is the most important to me. Being single gives me a lot more time to do things I need to do. Anyways, I'm always happy to help you out anyway that I can...


...  You are a busy guy! It's pretty cool that you are getting your own speakers from Eminence. I'll bet that's gonna be a cool sounding speaker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

--russian--


----------



## MartyStrat54

LOL... Your great Marty! Actually I'd love to have you test them. Honestly I was thinking of asking if I just have tubes I may buy in the future sent to you for testing and have you forward them to me from there... Of course I would reimburse you for shipping, and your time and trouble... It was a thought... Whaddaya think? Don't feel bad if you want to say no, I won't be offended, but like my ma always said, "You lose nothing by asking".

You can send me tubes for testing any time you like. It will take a little time, but you will be better off. You know the Peace Of Mind thing? We actually got the tubes to each other pretty damn fast when you think about it.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was doing some cruising and came across this web site. I'd been there before, but it was like two years ago. Read what you like and then use the "Jump to 12AX7's" link to be blown away by pairs of 12AX7's for $400 bucks!!!

Lots of good info though, but mainly on European tubes. He does a combined summary on the USA tubes, but he gives the black plates high marks.

Marty

Go Here:

12AX7 Tubes in Stock


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... You can send me tubes for testing any time you like. It will take a little time, but you will be better off. You know the Peace Of Mind thing? We actually got the tubes to each other pretty damn fast when you think about it...



I thought so... And I'm up for peace of mind, that's for sure!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ahh??? Your pictures of the Russian EL84's disappeared from the thread. What's up with that?

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ahh??? Your pictures of the Russian EL84's disappeared from the thread. What's up with that?
> 
> Marty


Ahh... Yeah. Sorry 'bout that... I got my threads mixed up and accidentally posted the YJ / EL84 stuff here on the Pre-Amp tube thread... So... I switched 'em... Those pics are over there where they belong, and now...


----------



## solarburn

Hey my Tubers! Guess what I did last night? Left my NT on stand-by all night. Still works! I put the JJ EL84's in and am demoing them now. Don't know if I like them as much as the stockers. I need to mess around with them a little more. They are a darker tube it seems compared to the stock ones. If I'm not mistaken I think I may have lost a little headroom. I'm going make a couple of preamp tube changes too. Maybe I wore down the Tung Sols leaving em' on all night. A preamp tube change will tell me right away. Could just be how the JJ's are too.

Well I'm almost on vacation for a few weeks so in a couple of days I'm going to roll those tubes Marty gave to me and see how the Marshall likes em'. Heck I can run them in the NT as well. I just have had limited time last couple of weeks. Finally going to get to it.

Another great write up above Marty.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*All things tube...*



MartyStrat54 said:


> --russian--


Updated location...


joshuaaewallen said:


> ...





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey my Tubers! Guess what I did last night? Left my NT on stand-by all night. Still works! I put the JJ EL84's in and am demoing them now. Don't know if I like them as much as the stockers. I need to mess around with them a little more. They are a darker tube it seems compared to the stock ones. If I'm not mistaken I think I may have lost a little headroom. I'm going make a couple of preamp tube changes too. Maybe I wore down the Tung Sols leaving em' on all night. A preamp tube change will tell me right away. Could just be how the JJ's are too.
> 
> Well I'm almost on vacation for a few weeks so in a couple of days I'm going to roll those tubes Marty gave to me and see how the Marshall likes em'. Heck I can run them in the NT as well. I just have had limited time last couple of weeks. Finally going to get to it.
> 
> Another great write up above Marty.


 I put a JJ in my Valve Junior... Didn't care for it. Too dark in my opinion...

What typically would one expect after leaving their amp on all night? I'm guessing it's not good?



MartyStrat54 said:


> I was doing some cruising and came across this web site. I'd been there before, but it was like two years ago. Read what you like and then use the "Jump to 12AX7's" link to be blown away by pairs of 12AX7's for $400 bucks!!!
> 
> Lots of good info though, but mainly on European tubes. He does a combined summary on the USA tubes, but he gives the black plates high marks.
> 
> Marty
> 
> Go Here:
> 
> 12AX7 Tubes in Stock



Holy Hannah! Now most of those tubes are really meant for someone who has too much $$$, and nothing else to do with it! Wow.


----------



## solarburn

*Re: All things tube...*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Updated location...
> 
> I put a JJ in my Valve Junior... Didn't care for it. Too dark in my opinion...
> 
> What typically would one expect after leaving their amp on all night?



Burning a light bulb out. At least it was on stand-by. I think this is the first time I've done it. Anyways I suppose a tube or 2 could have gone out but not necessarily.

On the JJ I think it has taken some bite or chewiness out of the tone. At least these things aren't real expensive. Still have to play around a little more...


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's not going to do a darn thing, except be on all night. Yeah, the tubes rack up some on time, but oh well, they are usually good for 3 to 5,000 hours.

As long as you have speakers hooked up everything will be okay, regardless of whether the stand-by switch is on or off.

Hey Solar. Thought we lost you (he-he.) Great to know that you are going to get some time off. I know that you work the late shift. That can make it tough. 

My guess is the JJ's are just not that great of tubes. Try the stock ones back in there and see if everything is "normal" again. You will be getting some good tubes soon enough. Then you won't have to worry about junkie power tubes.

Hang in there. The NT will still be a rollin'. It's not damaged.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's not going to do a darn thing, except be on all night. Yeah, the tubes rack up some on time, but oh well, they are usually good for 3 to 5,000 hours.
> 
> As long as you have speakers hooked up everything will be okay, regardless of whether the stand-by switch is on or off.
> 
> Hey Solar. Thought we lost you (he-he.) Great to know that you are going to get some time off. I know that you work the late shift. That can make it tough.
> 
> My guess is the JJ's are just not that great of tubes. Try the stock ones back in there and see if everything is "normal" again. You will be getting some good tubes soon enough. Then you won't have to worry about junkie power tubes.
> 
> Hang in there. The NT will still be a rollin'. It's not damaged.
> 
> Marty



Thanx for the reassurance! I was hop'n it wouldn't be a stress on her, he he. First thing I do is get that damn speaker wire hooked up, before the power cord gets hooked up to the back. I think I will end up putting the stockers back in. Then just wait for the good'ns. I got to go out now so I will be back as soon as I can and let ya know whats up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... As long as you have speakers hooked up everything will be okay, regardless of whether the stand-by switch is on or off...



Ok... Here's a dumb question that I should know the answer to... And it's not necessarily "tube related"...

Why can solid state amps be powered up w/ no speaker load and remain undamaged, but tube amps must have a speaker load or they're wrecked? What exactly happens if you power up your tube amp w/out a load on it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... Here's a dumb question that I should know the answer to... And it's not necessarily "tube related"...
> 
> Why can solid state amps be powered up w/ no speaker load and remain undamaged, but tube amps must have a speaker load or they're wrecked? What exactly happens if you power up your tube amp w/out a load on it?



Well, there are several things. One is that tube amps work on a voltage change and SS works on a current change. The "power" from the tubes is actually a change in voltage between the grid and the plate. This high voltage goes directly to the output transformer and charges up the primary side. The secondary (speaker load) side will now fire up, but if there is no speaker load the output transformer will go kaput and then everything else starts failing. If the standby is on then it shouldn't do any damage, because the high voltage is not on in the power tubes and therefore the primary side of the OPT is static (no voltage situation). 

In a SS amp the preamp "drives" the power transistors. If they aren't getting any drive then they are off. SS amps handle loads "automatically." You can go from an 8 to a 4 to a 2 without making any external changes. The power transistors do go through an OPT, but the way a SS works on current keeps the amp from having problems. Tube amps always have to be on to work. SS amps turn on and off depending on whenever they get a signal through the preamp.

However, I think it is always a good idea to have a speaker load connected to any kind of amp.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now Josh, I have listed more than once all of the tubes made by New Sensor and EH is one of them...



 Well... In my defense... Between this thread and the Yellow Jacket thread, sooo much information has accumulated that, w/out re-reading vast post regularly, it can be difficult to recall everything... 

Plus this added to my confusion: Electro-Harmonix Wins Legal Battle To Keep Russian Factory | Fretbase: Guitars, Tabs, Chords and More - The video is from 2006, but the story is pretty recent, February 2009.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Are there differences in the way they are made and the materials used and the techniques applied? I hope so. I really hope that New Sensor isn't duping everyone. As you may have remembered me saying, "I looked at the pictures of a Tung-Sol and a Mullard and I couldn't tell them apart, they looked the same."
> 
> Winged C and JJ are the only other European tube makers. Ei went out of business several years ago. After a while they all just sort of melt together...



I would have to logically conclude that even though _most_ (I am being generous here by not saying _all_, even though that wording is more likely true) modern production tubes are inferior to the tubes of yesteryear, there is undoubtedly many differences in design, materials, workmanship, and thus durability & tone, from one tube to the next.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Hey, at least with NOS you know that you are getting something genuine.



Indeed! Rock on, and thanks Marty!


----------



## YMI5150?

So I was messing around with my 601 yesterday and I'm wondering if preamp tubes affect harmonics. I noticed that on Channel 2 (crunch), in order to get in the ballpark for classic rock (early VH) tone, gain has to be relatively low, however I lose the ability to get decent harmonics. Is it possible to get an amp set up so that you can have both worlds or are harmonics a function of gain?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Plus this added to my confusion: Electro-Harmonix Wins Legal Battle To Keep Russian Factory | Fretbase: Guitars, Tabs, Chords and More - The video is from 2006, but the story is pretty recent, February 2009.

I don't know how old that article is, but if you go to say The Tube Store and punch in EH, it clearly states that EH is part of the New Sensor Corporation. So apparently Mike Matthews didn't want to cut a deal with the Russians, but instead he cut a deal with New Sensor.

I'm also confused about EH selling 2/3's of the world's tubes. I wonder if that really is a combined "New Sensor" number?

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

YMI5150? said:


> So I was messing around with my 601 yesterday and I'm wondering if preamp tubes affect harmonics. I noticed that on Channel 2 (crunch), in order to get in the ballpark for classic rock (early VH) tone, gain has to be relatively low, however I lose the ability to get decent harmonics. Is it possible to get an amp set up so that you can have both worlds or are harmonics a function of gain?



Kevin: How's it going? To answer your question, "Yes, preamp tubes do affect your amps ability to produce harmonics at different volume/gain settings."

As I think I told you, you need to get a solid high gain set in V1 and V2. This will allow a bigger window for harmonics at a lower volume setting. Now granted, at a higher volume, these tubes will literally sizzle and sound really sweet. If you are ready to buy a couple of these tubes, send me a private email and we can make the necessary arrangements.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I was over at your other place for a while, but thought that I would come over and talk about the BZ7. To me, it seems as if maybe the amp just doesn't like them installed permanently. Some circuits place different voltages on the BZ7 over what an AX7 would see. Since it has less plate resistance, maybe it is getting hotter than it should? However, in all of my old reference materials, a BZ7 is listed as a replacement/substitute for an AX7. Who am I to argue with all of these old books? The AX7 is a lot older tube than a BZ7. I don't think the BZ's were around until the early 60's.
> 
> One thing on EBAY that you see a lot. "SOLD AS IS/NO RETURNS." (This gives you a real secure feeling when placing that bid.) I guess I could send you another and if it goes bad, then it goes back to what I said a long time ago with BZ7 #1, "the amp doesn't like them." And I'd hate to see good tubes go bad if it is indeed the amp that is eating them. I'll let you make the call on this one....




Well, my replacement 12BZ7 arrived. It is a GE, vintage... (or so I'm told)... Described by the seller as,


> BLACK RIBBED WELDED PARALLEL PLATES, HORSESHOE SHAPED TOP GETTER WITH DUAL CROSSBARS, 5-52 DATE CODED. WHITE PRINT.
> PRODUCED BY CBS-HYTRON USA
> EMISSION 103/103. MINMUM GOOD IS 70. Gm 113/113. SCALE TO 120.
> UNUSED TUBE IN ORIGINAL BOX.








I'm gonna find out if my amp is 12BZ7 eater, or not... Stay tuned.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Well, my replacement 12BZ7 arrived. It is a GE, vintage... (or so I'm told)... Described by the seller as,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm gonna find out if my amp is 12BZ7 eater, or not... Stay tuned.



Nom Nom Nom.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I hope that beautiful old 1955 tube doesn't get a bite taken out of it. Look at that quality of craftmanship. Wow! It's like a 28 year-old Pamela Anderson with her third set of implants.

GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I hope that beautiful old 1955 tube doesn't get a bite taken out of it. Look at that quality of craftmanship. Wow! It's like a 28 year-old Pamela Anderson with her third set of implants.
> 
> GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## solarburn

Ok. I've rolled a few different new production 12AX7's in th NT now. I also decided to try my NOS CV4024 12AT7 along with a 12AX7 in it. I like this combination so far. Now even with 12AX7's in the NT it is clear and very present sounding. What notes and chords are played really come through. Fuzz and mud are never a problem on the bright setting with gain maxed. The thick setting can get muddy with chords but single notes are effected less by the higher gain of this voicing.

With the CV4024 mixed in there the thick voicing really gets cleared up at higher gain settings. I would never play with the gain maxed on the thick setting. About 3 o'clock on the gain is as far as I go with it.

The chime and roundness is still intact and is not loss with the lower gain of the AT7. I was worried it might thin out a bit compared to the AX7. Guitar roll off is still there and expressive. So far using the NOS CV4024 has not thinned the tone in my Marshall or the NT. 

Where I think using the Mullard AT7 pays off is the harmonic overtones and musical feedback it gives mixed with an AX7. If I'm not mistaken the lead notes sound a bit chewier. Its subtle but I think the bloom of the notes is better. It gives you that tone in the finger sound. Its overdriven enough to have body and bloom but not so much it loses expression/feel from the gain. Hard for me to describe but I'm trying.

Now all this tone posturing was done with humbuckers. All this can go out the window when I plug my Strat in.

Well I have done all the new production tube rolling I want to at this point. The field is set on both amps for the NOS tube party I'm going to have thanks to Marty. Again today I have little time for experimenting. Hopefully tomorrow I can start rolling the NOS AX7's in my beloved Marshall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE:

I'm surprised how happy you are with a 12AT7 in your tube section. I'm gonna have to try that sometime. It must have a smoothing effect on the amp, especially when played at moderate volumes where the headroom is still abundant.

I've used 5751's but then they are just a little hotter than a 12AT7. You've had that tube for quite some time. It's now been in several amps. My question to you is: Do you really want any high gain tubes? You seem happy with the lower gain sound and your style of playing. Let me know on that, hey?

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE:
> 
> I'm surprised how happy you are with a 12AT7 in your tube section. I'm gonna have to try that sometime. It must have a smoothing effect on the amp, especially when played at moderate volumes where the headroom is still abundant.
> 
> I've used 5751's but then they are just a little hotter than a 12AT7. You've had that tube for quite some time. It's now been in several amps. My question to you is: Do you really want any high gain tubes? You seem happy with the lower gain sound and your style of playing. Let me know on that, hey?
> 
> Marty



I actually have 2 of the CV4024's. They really don't have that many hours on them cause I have only been experimenting recently with them. Jerry from FJA was surprised I had it in the V1 position and not the PI. I have a Jan GE 5751 and put it in the Marshall. I didn't like it at all. I have found the CV4024 to be less taming than the 5751 in the Marshall"s preamp section. The gain between these 2 you would think the 5751 would be stouter but it didn't play out that way. My experiment was using both as the PI and the Marshall was duller sounding with the 5751 in it. Now I tried the CV4024 in my HT dual pedal that has 1 12AX7. It didn't do well in that. A 12AX7 was definitely better. 

I haven't tried the 5751 in the V1 or V2. I have with the CV4024 and it sounds good wherever I placed it but only 1 AT7. I tried both of the AT7's in the NT and it was a no go. Didn't like the lower dynamics with both in at the same time. With 1 AT7 I think there is a little smoothing effect but single notes still have bite on them. Sustain is still intact. On chording its taking off a bit of hair but really it is a subtle effect. Its not bringing the gain down much overall even though the gain structure of the AT7 is at 60.

Actually I like both high gain and lower gain mixed. I don't like to use more than 1 lower gain tube in the amps I have. It tends to lose too much body then and those nice overtones go away. So I don't want to neuter the gain section as I am going for a solid blues/rock midgain tone. Keep me in mind for the high gainers too cause I do like what they bring to the table for sure. 

Also keep in mind I like to boost my amps not for more gain but for gain with more body to it. So I start with a solid tube foundation and then boost to taste depending on what I am playing and what dynamics I want happening. Generally I keep the amps gain low. The Marshall's gain rarely goes past noon. Then I boost it. I like it better this way than increasing the amps own gain which renders a different texture of gain. Boosting gives me that punch I want and still sounds good with guitar roll off.

Shit I wrote a book!

Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

I spent a good part of yesterday afternoon testing and recording tube ratings. I was surpised to find out that I had many AX7's in the "above average" ratings and I even had some that were up there with the ICBM. I have six, super strong Raytheon BP's coming in and I will need to test these tubes as well. I bought two lots of new tube boxes. I got tired of having all of these unprotected, loose tube lying around. I should have them in by the time I start shipping everyone's tubes out. Kevin is going the full Monte and getting four tubes. 

Joe, I wonder if your 5751 is good? I'm sure you will agree with me that it isn't normal for the AT7 to outperform the 5751 in the gain category. Something is amiss. The tube may be weak for a variety of reasons. I have two 1958 Tung-Sol 5751's and they will outperform and of the AT7's that I have and I have some really hot ones such as JAN (Joint Army/Navy) 12AT7's that are some of the best I ever have had. I bought a box of five and I'm using one as the PI in my old Randall hybrid amp with the 8417 power tubes. It works great in there. 

The way I see it, having an AT7 in V1 will work as long as you don't (as you say) crank the gain more than twelve o'clock. In this situation V2 will have enough gain reserve to compensate for the lower gain of the AT7. The result is a completely different sound. On the other side of the fence is putting two super gain 12AX7's in V1 and V2. This is a raging animal that is waiting for a hard power chord followed up by some feverish licks. The tube harmonics I got with two hot tubes was incredible. It made my power tubes sound better as well.

To each his own. I know I'm getting old and I don't play as good as I used to, but I still like the high gain sound. I learned on another thread that the choke mod works better with 100 watt heads than say a 40-60 watt head.
One thing about tube mods, they work well on any size amp.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I spent a good part of yesterday afternoon testing and recording tube ratings. I was surpised to find out that I had many AX7's in the "above average" ratings and I even had some that were up there with the ICBM. I have six, super strong Raytheon BP's coming in and I will need to test these tubes as well. I bought two lots of new tube boxes. I got tired of having all of these unprotected, loose tube lying around. I should have them in by the time I start shipping everyone's tubes out. Kevin is going the full Monte and getting four tubes.
> 
> Joe, I wonder if your 5751 is good? I'm sure you will agree with me that it isn't normal for the AT7 to outperform the 5751 in the gain category. Something is amiss. The tube may be weak for a variety of reasons. I have two 1958 Tung-Sol 5751's and they will outperform and of the AT7's that I have and I have some really hot ones such as JAN (Joint Army/Navy) 12AT7's that are some of the best I ever have had. I bought a box of five and I'm using one as the PI in my old Randall hybrid amp with the 8417 power tubes. It works great in there.
> 
> The way I see it, having an AT7 in V1 will work as long as you don't (as you say) crank the gain more than twelve o'clock. In this situation V2 will have enough gain reserve to compensate for the lower gain of the AT7. The result is a completely different sound. On the other side of the fence is putting two super gain 12AX7's in V1 and V2. This is a raging animal that is waiting for a hard power chord followed up by some feverish licks. The tube harmonics I got with two hot tubes was incredible. It made my power tubes sound better as well.
> 
> To each his own. I know I'm getting old and I don't play as good as I used to, but I still like the high gain sound. I learned on another thread that the choke mod works better with 100 watt heads than say a 40-60 watt head.
> One thing about tube mods, they work well on any size amp.
> 
> Marty



You may be right about the 5751 not being a good one. It dulling the tone up like it did surprised me. Maybe I'll mess with it again and see if I get anything different out of it. It was a quick demo I did of it cause it was like yuk!

I think the CV4024 mixed in creates a midgain sweet spot that I like. That being said I haven't got to really crank it up for more than a few moments due to the father-in-law living with us. It limits my ability to get a good feel for these tube changes at a good volume although I do torture the household here and there. Like I said though using them(CV4024)still is experimental. I haven't really settled on having an AT7 in there all the time. It can sound good though. I think the PI may be a better position for it. I don't know yet.

Those NOS tubes you gave me livened things up a bit today. Its been awhile since I played at high gain. It was righteous! Marshall wanted to take off! What is nice about them is the guitar roll off still sounds good too. I stepped on the Germania to add even more and it was reeling mad then. Wow how fun was that? Very! Felt like I needed a cig cause I just had sex.

I just woke up from a nap so I have to mess around with them more and I am definitely interested in all these NOS tubes I'm learning about. Really cool stuff. I wonder how the NT will like em'? Stay tuned. I can't wait to get the EL84's from you. I've been pricing some NOS and ouch are they spensive. What do you think of this site?:

KCA NOS Tubes. Audio tubes for guitar amplifiers and audiophile equipment. 12AX7, 6L6GC, 12ay7, el34, el84, Fender amplifier,5AR4, 5U4GB, cv4004, 6SN7, 8417, 7027, gz34, Mullard, EF86, 6ca7, 6bq5, 7025, 12at7


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to that link and they wanted 70 or 80 bucks apiece for Raytheon BP 12AX7's. I just bought six for less than $30 a piece and they all test in the high altitude regions of my meter. So I guess I won't let $27.45 each bother me too bad.

They did have some fair prices on JAN Sylvania 6L6WGB's. Standard matching is within 3 mV of each other. The price was $178 for a quad. That's not bad for brand new tubes.

I'll have to spend a little more time looking at the prices and finding the bargains, cuz $70 bucks for an AX7 is getting a little pricey. Ya know?

Marty


----------



## ts31966

Hi all!

Well, I have been trying a million different combinations. A few tubes I have are microphonic. I am not going to throw them away though. They sound to good for that. I am going to experiment with the rubber bands that I saw on fleabay.

Some of the NOS tubes make some strange noises sometimes. I am hoping that with a burn in period they will burn in and quiet down.

I saw a device on EAT's website to quiet microphonic tubes but they are very expensive. I am hoping to get them for cheaper.

Has anyone here experimented with the rubber bands? If so will the metal sleeves fit over the top of your 12ax7 with the rubber bands on?

My 5150 III takes 8 12ax7's so it is taking me alot of time to get into different combinations. I am going to see if I can find some books with some useful information on tube positioning. Sometimes my high gain channel gets quiet with different tube combinations. But only the high gain channel. I have a theory on this but I have to go over the schematics to figure it out.


----------



## steelhorse

I'm curious to see if the bands help you out too. I've not ever heard of anyone using them but I've seen them in use online. I think a few folks here also use them.


What are you trying to achieve with the pre's in your EVHIII? I ask because I've not heard a bad one in fact I was very close to purchasing one myself that is until I saw Mesa come out with the MK V. I thought the EVH III is a great amp. Does it have too much gain or not enough gain? Too noisy?

Overall what is your opinion of this amp, like what genre's, etc. 

Seems like a roadworthy amp that's for sure.


----------



## ts31966

The 5150 III is the quietest high gain amp I have tried without a noise gate. That is it's greatest strength. There are alot of great sounding high gain amps but they also have alot of noise.

My goal with the EVH 5150 III is to make it sound even better. It does sound great out of the box. But your whole guitar signal goes through your tubes. Each different tube has a unique sound and characteristics.

Every product that you buy that is mass produced will never have the best components in it. I am just trying to find the best tubes that will make it sound its best.

My favorite tone is Van Halen's tone on all the albums with David Lee Roth. I know to get that tone a better purchase would have been a mojove amp but I want to get it out of my 5150 III.

I might still buy a mojove amp also though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> The 5150 III is the quietest high gain amp I have tried without a noise gate. That is it's greatest strength. There are alot of great sounding high gain amps but they also have alot of noise.
> 
> My goal with the EVH 5150 III is to make it sound even better. It does sound great out of the box. But your whole guitar signal goes through your tubes. Each different tube has a unique sound and characteristics.
> 
> Every product that you buy that is mass produced will never have the best components in it. I am just trying to find the best tubes that will make it sound its best.
> 
> My favorite tone is Van Halen's tone on all the albums with David Lee Roth. I know to get that tone a better purchase would have been a mojove amp but I want to get it out of my 5150 III.
> 
> I might still buy a mojove amp also though.



Did you buy a tester? I use the high silicone bands on both my pre and power tubes. No, you can't put one on V1 and still use the RF shield. The bands are a must for combo amps, not so much for heads ( a lot less vibrations). 

Mathematically, trying to come up with the perfect eight tube combination could take you well into next year. That's a lot of tweaking. It took me about a month per amp to get the tubes in that sounded good. Then along comes some monster high gain NOS tubes and it changed my way of thinking ASAP. I realized that a strong 7025 followed by a stronger 12AX7 is the way to make all three channels of my TSL kick ass. V3 and V4 are good tubes, but they only have to be average in strength, say 85 to 90 per cent. V1 is riding about 95 and V2 is 105 to 125, you know insane high gain. 

I just spent a lot of time testing and rating tubes and I found that I had six 7025's still left and two of them are screamers running past 100 per cent. I have six, BP Raytheon's that I won on Ebay that are all super high gain tubes. Once they get here I will test them for accuracy.

I hope you have great success getting tubes into your EVH. I guess it will just take a little time and a schematic.

Marty


----------



## ts31966

I have found exactly the same thing Marty. V1 and V2 makes the amps tone. The rest of the tubes just need to be quiet. But the 5150 is set up a little differently than most amps. Channel 1 and 2 are similar but channel 3 has its own voicing.

I haven't bought a tube tester. I need to learn more. I want the amplitrex but I don't know if it is worth it for me. 

Tell me this Marty, I have this tube that sounds great but on channel 3 with the gain maxed out and the guitar volume maxed out the tube starts freaking out. It makes all kinds of weird noises and the distortion from the tube is all over the place. The tube is not microphonic. The tube is a black plate brimar labeled raytheon.

Also Marty what do you know about 12dt7's. I have a whole bunch of black plate raytheons. They sound great for channel 1 and 2 but channel 3 doesn't have as much gain with them in the v1 and v2 position.

I am thinking that both triodes do not have the same gain in this tube and this is lowering the output on channel 3. I am going to have to call fender Monday about that.

Most of my tubes are old. They sound great but I think they need to burn in. Have you guys had experience with tubes settling once you leave them powered on for awhile?


----------



## steelhorse

Check out David Brays amps before deciding on an amp to replicate Ed's sound.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went to that link and they wanted 70 or 80 bucks apiece for Raytheon BP 12AX7's. I just bought six for less than $30 a piece and they all test in the high altitude regions of my meter. So I guess I won't let $27.45 each bother me too bad.
> 
> They did have some fair prices on JAN Sylvania 6L6WGB's. Standard matching is within 3 mV of each other. The price was $178 for a quad. That's not bad for brand new tubes.
> 
> I'll have to spend a little more time looking at the prices and finding the bargains, cuz $70 bucks for an AX7 is getting a little pricey. Ya know?
> 
> Marty



Crap man our power went out at 5pm and has just come back on. I was playing my NT when it went out. Fortunately it is ok after being shut down all of a sudden. I had taken out the AT7 and put the RCA 12AX7 in paired with an AC5 right now. Boy I was hearing some nice overtones and neat bell like tones while playing open chords and then the power went dead.

All seems well and I'm going to continue to roll the NOS between the NT and DSL. Those RCA are sweet no doubt! Thanks again mate. I've run out of time to play as it is late now so I will pick it up tomorrow. Sure wish I could still be playing though. 

Marty I will run by any tubes I might want to try before I buy to get your opinion on what kind of deal it is. I'm not going to be buying until after I get the EL84's from you anyways. What you gave me already will keep me going for awhile as it is so I'm pretty much set and having fun.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> I have found exactly the same thing Marty. V1 and V2 makes the amps tone. The rest of the tubes just need to be quiet. But the 5150 is set up a little differently than most amps. Channel 1 and 2 are similar but channel 3 has its own voicing.
> 
> I haven't bought a tube tester. I need to learn more. I want the amplitrex but I don't know if it is worth it for me.
> 
> Tell me this Marty, I have this tube that sounds great but on channel 3 with the gain maxed out and the guitar volume maxed out the tube starts freaking out. It makes all kinds of weird noises and the distortion from the tube is all over the place. The tube is not microphonic. The tube is a black plate brimar labeled raytheon.
> 
> Also Marty what do you know about 12dt7's. I have a whole bunch of black plate raytheons. They sound great for channel 1 and 2 but channel 3 doesn't have as much gain with them in the v1 and v2 position.
> 
> I am thinking that both triodes do not have the same gain in this tube and this is lowering the output on channel 3. I am going to have to call fender Monday about that.
> 
> Most of my tubes are old. They sound great but I think they need to burn in. Have you guys had experience with tubes settling once you leave them powered on for awhile?



Well the EVH's are super high gain heads and they have a fairly complicated preamp section. How do they split the tubes between channels 1, 2 and 3?

About the Brimar. It almost sounds like a rattling plate. The plate are welded to a post and if one (or some) of the welds come loose, the plate will move microscopically. However, it could also be that when the controls are fully maxed out, the tube is suffering from threshold distortion. Apparently, you can stick other tubes in there and max them out and there isn't any problems. Is this correct?

12DT7's a rare and a superior sub for any 12AX7. Both sides are rated at 100mu, the same as a 12AX7. However, the rP (plate resistance) is different than that of a 12AX7. A 12DW7 is the one that is lopsided. It is 100mu on triode one and 17 on triode two. This is basically 1/2 of a 12AX7 and 1/2 of a 12AU7. You are not going to realize much gain in V3. This is probably your tone stack section (it is for a Marshall). You will want a tube in here that adds flavor to the tone controls and is somewhat balanced. It doesn't have to be perfect and it doesn't have to be a high gain tube. Just a decent one. (Those 12DT7's are expensive. Did you get them a long time ago? I haven't seen any for sale for a long time.)

As far as how the tubes work in Channel Three? Well, if the tubes are kicking butt in Channel 1 and 2, they should do the same in Channel 3. Yes, you may want to consult Fender on that. Hopefully they won't frown about you changing out the tubes. You know, warranty issues???

As far as old tubes go. I have found that an old good tube will get a little stronger the longer it is on. Not much but some. I have taken readings on a tube and then left it intentionally in the tester for an hour and then retested it. Some tubes read the same and some read a little stronger.

Hope this helps. Marty


----------



## ts31966

First let me thank steelhorse for the heads up on David Bray amps. I checked out the audio clips and I like them alot.

Marty, I don't know what is going on exactly. Yes, I will get a tube that makes channel 1 and 2 sound great, (rich harmonics, full and balanced) then I go to channel 3 and it has less gain than channel 2. This is with just changing v1. The first one that did this was a black plate raytheon 12ad7. But later I discovered a gold pin 12ax7s that I got from eurotubes, that was supposed to be hand selected for low noise and high gain, this tube did the same thing. The box it came in was labeled high gain with the testing for each triode on the box.

The Brimar/Raytheon tube sounds great but when you max out the guitar volume it goes crazy. It is the only tube that does this. I got these old tubes a couple of years ago.

I am going through the schematics right now to try to figure out which tube is best suited for each position. I have been doing this by trial and error but it is taking me too long.

Thanks for the info on the 12dt7 Marty. What you said is exactly what I have read but something strange is going on with those tubes.


----------



## ts31966

It is the V1 tube. Depending on the tube in V1 channel 1 and 2 can sound great but channel 3 will have less gain. The tone of channel 3 is still great but it is like channels 2 and 3 have changed places.

The black plate raytheon tube all do it. I have some black plate sylvania
12ad7's with square getters but they work fine in V1.

Like I said it also happened with a jj 12ax7s with gold pins that I got from Bob at eurotubes. This tube was hand selected for noise, microphonics, and high gain. The test results for each triode is on the box. But when I put it in channel 3 sounds wimpy also.

I really need to get a tube tester so I can quite using my amp as the tube tester. 

On a side note I tried a tungsol reissue I got from upscale audio. It sounds pretty good. It is quiet, a little more fizzy than NOS but I would say it one of the best new tubes. The JJ's that came in my amp are very good also. Probably as good as the tungsol reissue. I don't know why those would be better than the one I bought at eurotubes but they are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ts31966 said:


> It is the V1 tube. Depending on the tube in V1 channel 1 and 2 can sound great but channel 3 will have less gain. The tone of channel 3 is still great but it is like channels 2 and 3 have changed places.
> 
> The black plate raytheon tube all do it. I have some black plate sylvania
> 12ad7's with square getters but they work fine in V1.
> 
> Like I said it also happened with a jj 12ax7s with gold pins that I got from Bob at eurotubes. This tube was hand selected for noise, microphonics, and high gain. The test results for each triode is on the box. But when I put it in channel 3 sounds wimpy also.
> 
> I really need to get a tube tester so I can quite using my amp as the tube tester.
> 
> On a side note I tried a tungsol reissue I got from upscale audio. It sounds pretty good. It is quiet, a little more fizzy than NOS but I would say it one of the best new tubes. The JJ's that came in my amp are very good also. Probably as good as the tungsol reissue. I don't know why those would be better than the one I bought at eurotubes but they are.



Does the EVH use four 12AX7's for Channels 1 and 2 and another set of four 12AX7's for Channel 3? Is that how it is set up? Are you saying your stock OE tubes do not created this problem, only the NOS tubes?

I haven't a clue as to why you are having difficulties getting Channel 3 to respond to known, good tubes. Maybe the problem goes beyond the tubes, that is unless you have certain tubes that will work and all channels respond as they should.

Unless you know what condition the NOS tubes are in, you are just wasting your time. You could have a tube that is 56/78 and another that is 88/94. Which tube would you want in your amp?

It's good to hear info on current production tubes. In fact, I wish others would join and give their opinions on the current production tubes they are using. I sent Josh a gold pin JJ and he didn't like it very much. On the other hand, I am using four EH 12AX7's in an all tube HiFi amp and they sound really good. I've used Sovtek WA's and WB's and didn't like them. However, I ordered some of the LPS's and they aren't bad. I sort of look at Sovtek as the bottom and then everything else is straight up from there. 

I'd really like someone to be able to A/B Tung-Sol and Mullard reissue tubes. I've toyed with the idea of getting four each and just trying them in an amp and seeing how it sounds with either the T-S's or the Mullards. I might do that, unless another member can supply feedback.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Does the EVH use four 12AX7's for Channels 1 and 2 and another set of four 12AX7's for Channel 3? Is that how it is set up? Are you saying your stock OE tubes do not created this problem, only the NOS tubes?
> 
> I haven't a clue as to why you are having difficulties getting Channel 3 to respond to known, good tubes. Maybe the problem goes beyond the tubes, that is unless you have certain tubes that will work and all channels respond as they should.
> 
> Unless you know what condition the NOS tubes are in, you are just wasting your time. You could have a tube that is 56/78 and another that is 88/94. Which tube would you want in your amp?
> 
> It's good to hear info on current production tubes. In fact, I wish others would join and give their opinions on the current production tubes they are using. I sent Josh a gold pin JJ and he didn't like it very much. On the other hand, I am using four EH 12AX7's in an all tube HiFi amp and they sound really good. I've used Sovtek WA's and WB's and didn't like them. However, I ordered some of the LPS's and they aren't bad. I sort of look at Sovtek as the bottom and then everything else is straight up from there.
> 
> I'd really like someone to be able to A/B Tung-Sol and Mullard reissue tubes. I've toyed with the idea of getting four each and just trying them in an amp and seeing how it sounds with either the T-S's or the Mullards. I might do that, unless another member can supply feedback.
> 
> Marty



Marty I have Tung Sol and Mullard reissues and both sound really good in the Marshall. The Tung Sols are warm and fat with good frequency response across the board. The Mullards are similar to my ears. These 2 pres are staples for me out of the new production models. JJ pres in my Marshall sounded dull and flat. Frequency response was terrible with dynamics suffering badly.

From what I have picked up you don't want to use a Tung Sol or LPS in a cathode follower stage. LPS make good PI tubes. Here is what I read:


It really depends on the amp with the cathode followers and the voltages on them.

The tube heaters reside inside the cathodes, the cathodes have special coatings on them to insulate them from the heaters.

In typical applications, only 1 to 5 volts is present on the cathodes.

But in cathode follower designs, several hundred volts is present.

On a typical 12AX7 spec. The Heater to cathode voltage difference (difference between the heter voltage and voltage on the cathode) should not exceed 150v to 180v.

On many cathode follower designs like the SLO, almost 200 volts can be seen on the cathode follower stages.

Most of the New Sensor stuff can only handle 100v cathode to heater voltage, and that is why they are not recommended. Too bad they can't even be made to proper specs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got a web address on that info you posted? The sad thing about that is New Sensor makes Tung-Sol, Mullards, EH's, Sovtek, Svetlana and Genalex. Everything is made in the same plant. Makes you wonder if they all are the same, but I guess there is some difference. As I said before, I looked at a picture of a Tung-Sol 12AX7 up against a Mullard 12AX7 and I couldn't tell them apart. 

Whatever the case may be, the article suggests that they aren't up to the task of handling high voltage.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got a web address on that info you posted? The sad thing about that is New Sensor makes Tung-Sol, Mullards, EH's, Sovtek, Svetlana and Genalex. Everything is made in the same plant. Makes you wonder if they all are the same, but I guess there is some difference. As I said before, I looked at a picture of a Tung-Sol 12AX7 up against a Mullard 12AX7 and I couldn't tell them apart.
> 
> Whatever the case may be, the article suggests that they aren't up to the task of handling high voltage.
> 
> Marty



Raises the ole' eye brow huh. Now I can here the difference for sure between an EH compared to the Tung Sol and Mullard when I put them in the NT. The EH was brighter on the top end and the other 2 were both darker because of how warm they are. Like you said I can really hear differences in tubes when in the NT.

I haven't had any Tung Sols or Mullards fail on me when in V1 or V2 for several months of home playing. Don't know how road worthy they would be. At home though you may want to just get 1 of each and see how they sound in V1 or V2. Thats not too much of a cost risk. I like em'. Actually the Ruby AC5 is good in those slots too. If I can find some extra Tung Sol/Mullards I will send them to you. I'll see what I have in the drawer. Email me your addy I forgot to write it down.

Here's the link of the forum thread I was reading. The thread is only 3 pages, not too long. Baron55 is the one who posted the above info.:


http://acapella.harmony-central.com...93397&highlight=cathode+follower+stage&page=2


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, there is a load of garbage on that forum. A lot of repeat nonsense. Sounds like one guy ruined some tubes in his amp, couldn't take the voltage. All the more reason that NOS tubes rule.

I looked at the schematic of my TSL100 (122) and man does it have high voltage on the 12AX7's. I mean a lot higher than 300V! Of course the current draw is very low in the circuit.

I wish that New Sensor would be honest and publish the "real" specs on their tubes. Ha! They won't do that...they'd loose business.

Marty


----------



## ts31966

Marty, according to Eurotubes the tubes he sent me tested over 100%. All the tubes I bought had excellent test results according to the people who sold them.

What I am saying is that obviously some or most of these tube resellers are full of it!

I talked to a guy that owns an amplitrex. He said that the amplitrex will reject tubes that appear good on an older calibrated tube tester. Such as a tv-7.

The guy I purchased the 12dt7's from said he tested all of them. He is a very reliable and honest tube reseller. A very nice and fair guy.

I will call fender tomorrow. I will find out what is going on with the v1 position in this amp. I tested the 12dt7's in a marshall combo and they sound great. It was a 2 channel amp. I can't remember which model. I know it is all tube though. It has 2 twelve inch speakers and uses el34's.

I have a groove tube mullard reissue. I will test it tomorrow. I bought it from upscale audio and it is supposed to be hand selected. High gain, low noise, non-microphonic.

The guy at upscale has never sold me anything of poor quality. He is the one who sold me the tungsol reissue.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, there is a load of garbage on that forum. A lot of repeat nonsense. Sounds like one guy ruined some tubes in his amp, couldn't take the voltage. All the more reason that NOS tubes rule.
> 
> I looked at the schematic of my TSL100 (122) and man does it have high voltage on the 12AX7's. I mean a lot higher than 300V! Of course the current draw is very low in the circuit.
> 
> I wish that New Sensor would be honest and publish the "real" specs on their tubes. Ha! They won't do that...they'd loose business.
> 
> Marty



HCAF can be a real cluster....if ya know what I mean. There are some knowledgeable guys that really are helpful too. Unfortunately its always comedy central there and riddled with catch phrases and retard isms that has created a whole other language. Staying on topic is a miracle when it happens.

Quality and durability seem to be a big problem with the new production tubes and we are stuck with that unless you buy NOS. Then you need a tester or know someone that has one and will do it for you. The big question is why can't they reproduce the good stuff? Aren't there enough of us buying tube amps that it would work out for all? Sheesh!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was on a different thread and the guy had a hyperlink to a cool old video of how they made audio tubes at the old Mullard Blackburn plant. The video is a copy of the original film. After watching this 25 minute long video, it became apparent to me that we will never be able to replicate what they were doing in that plant of 6300 people. The techniques and the tricks of the trade, the materials used, all vanished back in the mid-80's. 

How do they make audio tubes in Saratov, Russia? Like the famous Blackburn plant? I seriously doubt it. Mullard was making tubes there after WWl and Mullard expanded and had six plants with the Blackburn plant being their flagship. All of these tube factories in a country the size of England. They also made Brimar's in England, but they were never much competition to Mullard.

I'm all for automation, but making tubes involved a lot of human intervention. People who had made tubes for years and knew how to make batch after batch of superior tubes. That's why everyone wants them today. And RCA and Raytheon black plates, GE Five Star tubes and JAN Sylvanias. Oh they will all be gone at some point when I don't care anymore, but I will still remember what was the glory days of the tube industry. I was ten years old in 1964 and tubes ruled in everything. Our TV was all tube and so was both of our table radios. My grandfather had a 1947 Chevy and it had a tube radio in it. That's why the original heaters for tubes were six volt, just like the car's electrical power supply and the same power found in a military Jeep.

Joe, I will be dumbfounded if one of the tube manufacturer's starts making tubes that will rival a 1950-60's tube.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was on a different thread and the guy had a hyperlink to a cool old video of how they made audio tubes at the old Mullard Blackburn plant. The video is a copy of the original film. After watching this 25 minute long video, it became apparent to me that we will never be able to replicate what they were doing in that plant of 6300 people. The techniques and the tricks of the trade, the materials used, all vanished back in the mid-80's.
> 
> How do they make audio tubes in Saratov, Russia? Like the famous Blackburn plant? I seriously doubt it. Mullard was making tubes there after WWl and Mullard expanded and had six plants with the Blackburn plant being their flagship. All of these tube factories in a country the size of England. They also made Brimar's in England, but they were never much competition to Mullard.
> 
> I'm all for automation, but making tubes involved a lot of human intervention. People who had made tubes for years and knew how to make batch after batch of superior tubes. That's why everyone wants them today. And RCA and Raytheon black plates, GE Five Star tubes and JAN Sylvanias. Oh they will all be gone at some point when I don't care anymore, but I will still remember what was the glory days of the tube industry. I was ten years old in 1964 and tubes ruled in everything. Our TV was all tube and so was both of our table radios. My grandfather had a 1947 Chevy and it had a tube radio in it. That's why the original heaters for tubes were six volt, just like the car's electrical power supply and the same power found in a military Jeep.
> 
> Joe, I will be dumbfounded if one of the tube manufacturer's starts making tubes that will rival a 1950-60's tube.
> 
> Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I was on a different thread and the guy had a hyperlink to a cool old video of how they made audio tubes at the old Mullard Blackburn plant. The video is a copy of the original film.* After watching this 25 minute long video, it became apparent to me that we will never be able to replicate what they were doing in that plant of 6300 people. The techniques and the tricks of the trade, the materials used, all vanished back in the mid-80's...
> 
> How do they make audio tubes in Saratov, Russia? Like the famous Blackburn plant? I seriously doubt it. Mullard was making tubes there after WWl and Mullard expanded and had six plants with the Blackburn plant being their flagship. All of these tube factories in a country the size of England. They also made Brimar's in England, but they were never much competition to Mullard.
> 
> I'm all for automation, but making tubes involved a lot of human intervention. People who had made tubes for years and knew how to make batch after batch of superior tubes. That's why everyone wants them today. And RCA and Raytheon black plates, GE Five Star tubes and JAN Sylvanias. Oh they will all be gone at some point when I don't care anymore, but I will still remember what was the glory days of the tube industry. I was ten years old in 1964 and tubes ruled in everything. Our TV was all tube and so was both of our table radios. My grandfather had a 1947 Chevy and it had a tube radio in it. That's why the original heaters for tubes were six volt, just like the car's electrical power supply and the same power found in a military Jeep.
> 
> Joe, I will be dumbfounded if one of the tube manufacturer's starts making tubes that will rival a 1950-60's tube.
> 
> Marty



Hey Marty, How's it goin'? You guys have been BUSY on the forum. Wow! Question... Do you recall which thread has this video you mentioned? I'd really like to see that.

I threw that GE 12BZ7 (I think it's a '52 vintage) into my amp with a couple of tube dampers on it... Boy... I forgot how great that tube sound in V2! Sustain and harmonics for days. I just need to play a wee bit less sloppy . With the dampers and normal playing I'll see how that tube holds up. If it becomes a rattler then I guess we'll know for sure that it just can't survive life it a high gain combo.

V1:





V2:




V3:




V4:





In the absence of the 12BZ7, I had the Gold Pin JJ in V2... I didn't mind it as bad as I did before, but that may have been because I hadn't plugged in for nearly a week after pulling the rattling BZ7 outta there (maybe my ears had forgotten to some small extent)... It seems pretty smooth, with not too bad distortion, but less harmonic (talking good harmonics here), and darker...






I am coming to agree w/ you greatly about NOS vs. New Production tubes. If amp makers build amps to sound good w/ new tubes and most folks never experience NOS quality and tone... Then most folks will never really know what they are missing. There really is a difference!

The balancing act is to try to find some "decent" new tubes to have on supply so that when NOS stuff is no longer available we can still play with satisfaction.

Anyhoo... I have a box of tubes headed your way, and as soon as I have a few extra $$$, I'd like to buy a few tubes off you that are in the ICBM type category, and locate a few current production tubes of different makes and do some comparisons.

Great posts! Take care guys, talk at ya later!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty, How's it goin'? You guys have been BUSY on the forum. Wow! Question... Do you recall which thread has this video you mentioned? I'd really like to see that.
> 
> I threw that GE 12BZ7 (I think it's a '52 vintage) into my amp with a couple of tube dampers on it... Boy... I forgot how great that tube sound in V2! Sustain and harmonics for days. I jut need to play a wee bit less sloppy .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With the dampers and normal playing I'll see how that tube holds up. If it becomes a rattler then I guess we'll know for sure that it just can't survive life it a high gain combo.
> 
> Anyhoo... I have a box of tubes headed your way, and as soon as I have a few extra $$$, I'd like to buy a few tubes off you that are in the ICBM type category, and locate a few current production tubes of different makes and do some comparisons.
> 
> Great posts! Take care guys, talk at ya later!



Try this Josh:

Dailymotion - Fabrication d'une lampe triode - a Hi-Tech et Science video


----------



## solarburn

Check this article out guys. Its a pretty quick read:


NBC: In Russia, a battle for rock's soul - Europe- msnbc.com


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Try this Josh:
> 
> Dailymotion - Fabrication d'une lampe triode - a Hi-Tech et Science video





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Check this article out guys. Its a pretty quick read:
> 
> 
> NBC: In Russia, a battle for rock's soul - Europe- msnbc.com





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Try this Josh:
> 
> Dailymotion - Fabrication d'une lampe triode - a Hi-Tech et Science video





joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Electro-Harmonix Wins Legal Battle To Keep Russian Factory | Fretbase: Guitars, Tabs, Chords and More - The video is from 2006, but the story is pretty recent, February 2009.
> ... I would have to logically conclude that even though _most_ (I am being generous here by not saying _all_, even though that wording is more likely true) modern production tubes are inferior to the tubes of yesteryear, there is undoubtedly many differences in design, materials, workmanship, and thus durability & tone, from one tube to the next...



Thanks Solarburn! I've seen that second (Mike Mathews) video before, but that first one... I haven't seen that one before. That's pretty cool. I'm sure that processes was slowed down a bit for the benefit of filming, and that a skilled individual could likely make tube and tube components at a rather impressive rate, however even that can't keep up with today's mass production. And that is a sad fact. It means one factory can crank out tons of tubes of dubious quality. I guess I was yet again born at the wrong time...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks Solarburn! I've seen that second (Mike Mathews) video before, but that first one... I haven't seen that one before. That's pretty cool. I'm sure that processes was slowed down a bit for the benefit of filming, and that a skilled individual could likely make tube and tube components at a rather impressive rate, however even that can't keep up with today's mass production. And that is a sad fact. It means one factory can crank out tons of tubes of dubious quality. I guess I was yet again born at the wrong time...



We just have to make the best of what we got now as far as what's left of the NOS and be glad guys like Marty help us noob's out(speaking of myself).

I've been roll'n tubes between 2 amps the last couple of days I need a break today. So does the family he he. Hav'n fun but its work too. I'm gonna be mailing some new production pres to Marty. Can't wait to hear his reactions on them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We just have to make the best of what we got now as far as what's left of the NOS and be glad guys like Marty help us noob's out(speaking of myself)...



Count me in on both counts there mate! Marty has been a great source of info, and tubes, for this noobie (me)! 

... Additionally, let me say again... All of you guys posting here are awesome!


----------



## MartyStrat54

God, it took me a long time to find that video. I didn't respond to the thread so I manually looked through page after page before doing a search and that still took three attempts before I found it. In case the hyper link does not work, it is called:

How Valves/Tubes are made. By Mystic Fred

mullard tubes : Mullard Tubes : MullardTubes.com

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had to manually edit the hyper link to work. At the bottom portion of the page you will see a link that states, "Watch the exciting video of the Blackburn plant, etc."

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, I sent you an email about the Ruskie EL84's. Please respond.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> God, it took me a long time to find that video. I didn't respond to the thread so I manually looked through page after page before doing a search and that still took three attempts before I found it. In case the hyper link does not work, it is called:
> 
> How Valves/Tubes are made. By Mystic Fred
> 
> mullard tubes : Mullard Tubes : MullardTubes.com
> 
> Marty





MartyStrat54 said:


> I had to manually edit the hyper link to work. At the bottom portion of the page you will see a link that states, "Watch the exciting video of the Blackburn plant, etc."
> 
> Marty



That's cool. A real taste of history. I liked that. Thanks Marty.... In fact I watched it twice with my wife making fun of me the entire time for how much of a nerd I am for watching w/ such fascination...




MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, I sent you an email about the Ruskie EL84's. Please respond.
> 
> Marty



Thanks for the heads up Marty. I'll have a look!


----------



## solarburn

Well I finally got to wind up the NT all the way on 15 watts. Pretty damn loud 15 watter I must say. After using 12AX7 new production and NOS I think I have a combo I like best.

I've settled on, for now, a CV4024 AT7 along side a JAN Philips 12AX7WA. Both are NOS tubes. This is with the Sovtec EL84's. All this may change when I buy some NOS EL84's from Marty in a few days.

With these I'm getting the Vox chime and some nice overtones on mildly overdriven tones. I notice just a slight gain loss using the AT7 but better articulation when soloing I think. This is a plus on the Thick setting. There is an overdose of gain on it anyways(IMO). I'm liking the touch/feel that's there and the tone seems a bit better than with 2 12AX7's. 

Even though there is a slight loss of gain, my clean boost puts that back in when I want it. So really with a click of a pedal any gap in gain per tube is filled in and more if needed. 

Eventually I want to pair it up with a Greenback speaker so I may be rolling again when that happens. At any rate I'm going to start dig'n in and playing on it cause the NT does not hide anything. 

Still have the NOS in the Marshall. Its gonna stay that way for awhile. It is a beast compared to the NT. So much bigger and open sounding with those 50 watts. Frigg'n love that amp! In a couple of months I'm going to try some SED winged C's in it. Haven't tried them yet and I hear such good things about them in a DSL. Gotta do it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I put a pair of the Winged -C-'s in one of my 602's and I think they are better than most current EL34's. Maybe the E34L is right there with it, but nonetheless, the Winged -C- is a super 34 replacement.

You know, I'm thinking that I should have sent you a 5751. You could have subbed the AT7 with it. I'll bet it would be a perfect match for you. Too bad the one you have is garbage. You'd get just a little more gain without it being a super gain with an AX7. 

As I said, that seems to be your style. A good 5751 cranked in V1 going into a high gain 12AX7? Well if you go back about five pages you will see I already did such a test and my conclusion was that a super high gain will make up for any gain loss in the 5751. It does however allow you to shape your tones, most notably the clean (cause that is what a 5751 does so well) channel with a different window of tones over an AX7. But when you need to wail, the ICBM in V2 will handle the matter and you have your total Marshall tone wailing away.

You ought to get yourself a 5751. They usually go for a lot less $$$ than a 12AX7. Look for one that tests stout.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I put a pair of the Winged -C-'s in one of my 602's and I think they are better than most current EL34's. Maybe the E34L is right there with it, but nonetheless, the Winged -C- is a super 34 replacement.
> 
> You know, I'm thinking that I should have sent you a 5751. You could have subbed the AT7 with it. I'll bet it would be a perfect match for you. Too bad the one you have is garbage. You'd get just a little more gain without it being a super gain with an AX7.
> 
> As I said, that seems to be your style. A good 5751 cranked in V1 going into a high gain 12AX7? Well if you go back about five pages you will see I already did such a test and my conclusion was that a super high gain will make up for any gain loss in the 5751. It does however allow you to shape your tones, most notably the clean (cause that is what a 5751 does so well) channel with a different window of tones over an AX7. But when you need to wail, the ICBM in V2 will handle the matter and you have your total Marshall tone wailing away.
> 
> You ought to get yourself a 5751. They usually go for a lot less $$$ than a 12AX7. Look for one that tests stout.
> 
> Marty



I tried my Jan GE 5751 in it today in place of the AT7 and it didn't appeal to me. I think what I don't like about the 5751 is it seems less dynamic than the AT7. I don't like the texture/tone its adding in other words. Clean or overdriven. I did sub another Mullard 12AX7 in place of the AT7 and I almost settled on it. I liked it. It was pretty even as far as which 1 I wanted to use.

Next time I send you some tubes I will send the 5751 and you can test it to see if it is where it should be. I wish I had remembered I would have sent it with the batch that's on its way. Your reasoning for using the 5751 is exactly why I use the AT7 with just a hair less gain on tap. My clean boost puts a push on it too when I want. The CV4024 really is a nice AT7 I must say. That being said its bigger bro almost got the spot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, don't judge the sound and performance of all 5751's with the one you have. It's a dog I'm sad to say. I have two Tung-Sol 5751's and they both tear up the tester. These are 1958 tubes (not for sale) that I bought on Ebay about two years ago. I used the stoutest one when I conducted my tube tests. It gave the amp a different window of tones, but it still had some fire in its belly. With a stout 12AX7 in V2 and the amp in the crunch channel, it was crunch away. It didn't miss a beat. I can honestly say that I could live with that 5751 in V1 with a high gainer in V2. It wouldn't be a problem. A lot of people (like you) tend to like a 5751, because it is a quieter tube than an AX7. That quiet translates into a chiming clean channel. Again, it allows different tones to be shaped because of its design.

Personally, I don't think that I would want to go as low as an AT7. I tested with a real good one and I wasn't pleased with it. It was okay, but the punch seemed to be missing.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, don't judge the sound and performance of all 5751's with the one you have. It's a dog I'm sad to say. I have two Tung-Sol 5751's and they both tear up the tester. These are 1958 tubes (not for sale) that I bought on Ebay about two years ago. I used the stoutest one when I conducted my tube tests. It gave the amp a different window of tones, but it still had some fire in its belly. With a stout 12AX7 in V2 and the amp in the crunch channel, it was crunch away. It didn't miss a beat. I can honestly say that I could live with that 5751 in V1 with a high gainer in V2. It wouldn't be a problem. A lot of people (like you) tend to like a 5751, because it is a quieter tube than an AX7. That quiet translates into a chiming clean channel. Again, it allows different tones to be shaped because of its design.
> 
> Personally, I don't think that I would want to go as low as an AT7. I tested with a real good one and I wasn't pleased with it. It was okay, but the punch seemed to be missing.
> 
> Marty



Prolly right about my 5751. I'll send it to you one of these days soon and for curiosity sake lets see where it tests at. What the heck its not like I'm getting any use out of it. Sounds like I need to get a good 5751 cause I do like the mix of a lower gain tube with a 12AX7.

The NT is kind of different as far as having much punch. Even with 2 12AX7's there isn't really punch. There's presence but not really punch. Of course I'm use to a 50 watter that has awesome punch. I think 15 watts has alot to do with that as well as the EL84's that are in it. That's why I say I don't hear or feel like the AT7 is robbing the amp of much impact when overdriven. 

I will pay close attention to that and see if there is a lessening of any impact. I've been pop'n them tubes in and out like crazy to gage the differences. I'll take a little break and see if I notice more when I come back fresh. 

What I do get from the mix is great sustain and the notes are present. That hasn't been neutered. I like the tone's texture mixed with a 12AX7. Remember I tried 2 AT7's and it neutered the overdrive. So I know the AT7 can take away. The 3 12AX7's I liked together out of all the combinations were the Mullard and the Jan Philips 12AX7A as well as the RCA 12AX7A. The Mullard mixed with either of these 2 NOS was pretty good. Worth using for sure. I just can't take the RCA's out of the Marshall to run in the NT cause I like them where they are. 

I will say I like the new Mullard 12AX7 in both amps and my HT dual. Nice tone frequency range & gain characteristics and has been a solid performer so far.

Joe


----------



## RiverRatt

If I wanted to up the gain on my Blackheart 5 watt head, would I need a 12BZ7? Do these perform well in an amp with only 1 preamp tube?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> If I wanted to up the gain on my Blackheart 5 watt head, would I need a 12BZ7? Do these perform well in an amp with only 1 preamp tube?



If it only has 1 preamp tube you will probably need to boost it for more gain. What preamp tube comes in it?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a 12AX7. It came with a Sovtek, now it has a Tung-Sol.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's a 12AX7. It came with a Sovtek, now it has a Tung-Sol.



Read this thread:

12BZ7 info? - The Gear Page


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's a 12AX7. It came with a Sovtek, now it has a Tung-Sol.



Sovtec's suck but they are durable thats why you see them in a lot of amps or pedals like my HT Dual. I prefer the new Mullards as far as new production go. Guys like Marty have some real hot NOS 12AX7's but they can be spendy.

If it was me I'd slap a Mullard in it and clean boost it or use a nice transparent over drive pedal in front of it. I can recommend some if you are interested. Others here will chime in about the tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> If I wanted to up the gain on my Blackheart 5 watt head, would I need a 12BZ7? Do these perform well in an amp with only 1 preamp tube?



Hey there RiverRatt,

I've been using a GE 12BZ7 in the V2 of my Marshall for a while. LOVE the sound. To my ear it seems to have a bit more testosterone than many 12AX7's. It definitely articulates better than most 12AX7's... Which will show up more mistakes if your a sloppy player like I am, but this is a good thing because it forces me to play better.

As far as using it in a single tube amp... Dunno... Never tried. I'd say if you have one, throw it in and let your ears be your guide.

Anyhoo... That's my two cents.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks. I'm going to check out a nearby antique mall tomorrow. There's a guy there who has a pretty large collection of oddball tubes. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a 12BZ7. If not, I believe TubeDepot in Memphis has a few. So long as there's no chance of damaging the amp, I'll just try it out and see how it does.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks. I'm going to check out a nearby antique mall tomorrow. There's a guy there who has a pretty large collection of oddball tubes. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a 12BZ7. If not, I believe TubeDepot in Memphis has a few. So long as there's no chance of damaging the amp, I'll just try it out and see how it does.



It won't damage the amp. However, the amps circuit may or may not like it. If it does, you will be able to overdrive your EL84 like crazy. It will most certainly change the gain of the amp. If you can find a "good one," give it a spin.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I'm gonna be mailing some new production pres to Marty. Can't wait to hear his reactions on them.



... Any verdict on these tubes?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes... The beutious 12BZ7 vs. the Better known 12AX7...*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> If it only has 1 preamp tube you will probably need to boost it for more gain. What preamp tube comes in it?



Here's a quote that I found interesting from the forum over at the gear page that talks about the 12BZ7 vs. the 12AX7 (& other 12A** types):


> *effects of tube swapping...*
> Ever wonder what happens when you swap preamp tubes? Aside from the "sonic" changes, each different tube also changes the circuit "gain" or voltage amplification (AV), which, in turn, affects when (sooner or later) the tube goes into distortion.
> 
> Consider the "normal," cathode-biased, preamp circuit with 12AX7, 100K-ohm plate load resistor (Ra), and 500K-ohm "next-circuit" load (Raa):
> 
> *12AX7*: rp = 62.5K-ohm; mu = 100
> 
> Ra' = (Ra||Raa)
> AV = (mu*Ra')/(Ra' + rp)
> 
> Ra' = (100K||500K) = 83.3K
> AV = (100*83.3K)/(83.2K+62.5K) = *57.1*
> 
> ...thus, while the tube gain is mu =100, the "combined" load (100K||500K) reduces the total "circuit" gain to less than 60!
> 
> Now, replace the 12AX7 with a 12BZ7 tube and see what happens to the total "circuit" gain:
> 
> *12BZ7*: rp = 31.8K-ohm; mu = 100
> 
> AV = (100*83.3K)/(83.3K+ 31.8K) = *73.7*
> 
> ...the total "circuit" gain actually goes UP by 30% (+2.22dB)!
> 
> What happened? The two tubes have the same gain (mu =100), so why is there at difference? Answer: tube plate resistance!
> 
> It is *PLATE resistance* (rp), NOT *tube gain* (mu), that has the most affect on circuit gain! Or, stated differently, the tube with the LOWEST plate resistance is LEAST affected by the combination of plate and "next-circuit" loading, and thus LOOSES the LEAST gain because of those circuit loadings!
> __________________
> *DISCLOSURE(s)*: 1) employee of defense-aerospace company (not Kaman); 2) affiliated with Pentode Press; 3) affiliated with Howard W. Sams & Company; 4) affiliated with Blacksburg Group; 5) affiliated with Ted Weber (amp kits); 6) affiliated with FMIC (guitars & amps); 7) affiliated with Gibson (guitars); 8) affiliated with Ovation (guitars); 9) prior affiliation with CBS-Fender; 10) prior affiliation with CMI-Gibson.
> _ Last edited by Old Tele man; 12-25-2004 at 03:19 PM. _


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Any verdict on these tubes?



Hey Josh! Marty should get the new production tubes on Monday. So expect to hear about it not too long after that he he. I hear you got a torpedo from him. Let us know how it goes man?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee! I've only been telling you that for about three months now.

In fact, I printed out that very same thread. It starts with, "Mike K," on 12-23-2004, 11:56 AM and kept a hard copy for myself. The info on the plate resistance I have brought up many times. I also mentioned the tube in the real world being put in a circuit and it would lose gain because of the resistance value of the circuit. I stated that the BZ7 had half the plate resistance of a 12AX7 and when injected in a circuit would exhibit more gain because of this fact. If you don't remember any of this, then the thread is too long and has served its usefulness.

Of course, what I have yet to say is that they are going by the fact that both tubes are equal with a gain factor of 100. Resistance plays the major role in the gain factor of the circuit, but the sheer gain of the tube plays a role as well. If you have a 12AX7 tube that has a gain of 120 with the same plate resistance you are going to notice an increase in gain. Two 12AX7's with 120 gain factors? Big change in the gain of the amp. In other words, it's just not plate resistance. I mean I could start talking about how hard a vacuum was pulled on a tube, because that in a small way affects the gain factor from an electronics standpoint. And tube getters, you know what they do, right?

Maybe I should quit posting here for a while? One thing I hate is repetition. You put it down in the thread one time and it shouldn't have to be repeated. A lot of that stuff I didn't want to put in this thread, because it's technical in nature and unless you are knowledgeable about electronic components, it is foolish to put it in print.

Maybe I'll be able to go find something interesting to comment on , but that's getting harder to do as well.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

You seem highly appreciated in here Marty.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee! I've only been telling you that for about three months now.
> 
> In fact, I printed out that very same thread. It starts with, "Mike K," on 12-23-2004, 11:56 AM and kept a hard copy for myself. The info on the plate resistance I have brought up many times. I also mentioned the tube in the real world being put in a circuit and it would lose gain because of the resistance value of the circuit. I stated that the BZ7 had half the plate resistance of a 12AX7 and when injected in a circuit would exhibit more gain because of this fact. If you don't remember any of this, then the thread is too long and has served its usefulness.
> 
> ... Maybe I should quit posting here for a while? One thing I hate is repetition. You put it down in the thread one time and it shouldn't have to be repeated. A lot of that stuff I didn't want to put in this thread, because it's technical in nature and unless you are knowledgeable about electronic components, it is foolish to put it in print....



Sorry mate. Didn't mean to offend... I just posted that because RiverRatt had expressed interest in BZ7's and that info just reinforced what you had said earlier regarding the BZ7's...

I would have to disagree that this thread has totally served it's usefulness. As you have pointed out, there are numerous other facets of tubes that can be discussed. My intent when this thread was started was to discuss and learn "all things tube". 

There's an old saying, "Repetition Is The Mother Of Retention". Personally I believe that's true. That's how I learn just about everything, including playing guitar. I read it, write it, hear it, think it, practice it, and... I do it all over again. Hopefully with as little annoyance to others as possible.



MartyStrat54 said:


> .... it's just not plate resistance. I mean I could start talking about how hard a vacuum was pulled on a tube, because that in a small way affects the gain factor from an electronics standpoint. And tube getters, you know what they do, right?



Actually, I have only a vague concept of the point of a getter, and I really would like to learn more. And as far as how hard a vacuum was pulled on a tube... Not a clue. My point mate, is that I actually am interested in these subjects and learn best by lively discussion, and repetition.



steelhorse said:


> You seem highly appreciated in here Marty.



Steelhorse... I would like to reiterate your statement here with one small adjustment... "You _are_ highly appreciated in here Marty".

Now that I have put my foot in my mouth... And _attempted_ to remove it... I'm gonna shut up and go away now. Thanks guys, you rock!


----------



## steelhorse

I totally agree joshua!

Now what was it we were talking about it again?

All this tube talk has my head spinning!


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I struck out in my 12BZ7 quest. I did find a few 12BY7s but I wasn't sure if they were a legitimate substitute or not. Any ideas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Josh! Marty should get the new production tubes on Monday. So expect to hear about it not too long after that he he. I hear you got a torpedo from him. Let us know how it goes man?



Joe, I got your tubes today. I don't know if I will have time to mess with them or not. I'm thinking about taking the back off of my DSL401 and using it as the test amp. That way, when the Sylvania's show up, I'll take the Telefunkens out and load it with four brand new tubes (and bias it). (Damn 401 you have to take the chassis out to do the bias...what a pain.)

I'll get your tubes out today.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I struck out in my 12BZ7 quest. I did find a few 12BY7s but I wasn't sure if they were a legitimate substitute or not. Any ideas?



The 12BY7's were used, I believe in some old Fenders. They are low gain tubes. Also, the basing is different and I wouldn't recommend swapping them as damage could result. A 12AX7 has a "9A" pinout and the 12BY7 has a "9BF" pinout.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe: I managed to get your tubes out. I sent you a regular comcast email and a PM. Look it over and give me your thoughts on the AT and the 51.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes... A New Arrival In The Family*

Thanks to our man Marty there's a new(NOS) ICBM in the house that I am just jonesin' to get into my amp. It's a Raytheon BP (35/35). Here's the pics...


















Boy, oh boy... I can't wait!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your complete satisfaction is guaranteed. I am looking forward to your tests and comments, especially with a BZ7 in the rig.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

Josh those are some cool pics. Can't wait to hear bout it man.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe: I managed to get your tubes out. I sent you a regular comcast email and a PM. Look it over and give me your thoughts on the AT and the 51.
> 
> Marty



Got your messages Marty and I am looking forward to trying the NOS sardines coming in! The 5751 looks like its a mean one. You know how I like mixing the gainers vs the low gainers(AT7). Gonna be neat to see how it all pans out using the NT for testing. You are right about it being a good amp to test tubes in.

That is a drag you have to pull the chassis out on the 401 to bias. On well. At least you know how to do all that. Opens up a whole new world of tone once you can bias the amp. Glad I learned! Keep us posted on the dogs I sent ya.

Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I can't wait to find out if the 5751 acts like a 12AX7. I mean it tested so damn high, you have to wonder what the gain factor is on that tube? 5751's were made to run quiet, so if this has more gain than a regular 5751, in a ways it becomes like a 7025, which is an extra quiet, high gain 12AX7. This is probably going to be a V1 tube with say an RCA in V2. That should produce the blues sound you like so much. I've never tested that tube in an amp, so I am really more curious about its gain factor than anything else, but after all, it's a Tung-Sol. 

I have taken a look at the tubes you sent me. Thank you, BTW. The older Tung-Sol's were made with longer plates. Now they have short plates and the Mullards have long plates. The JJ's have long plates as well. One of my 602's came with two tubes marked, "Marshall" and the other two were Sovtek WA's. I can't stand the WA or the WB, as they both are prone to microphonics and they are screechy in the mid-highs. The shame is the Sovteks look like well made tubes. Their best AX7 is the LPS and it is not recommended for combo amps (microphonics). The LPS is sort of a copy of a ribbed plate Telefunken. The difference is that you can use the Telefunken in a combo without it breaking up. So just looking at the three brands, the Tung-Sol's are made with the combo in mind. Short, tight plates.

I got real busy with work and I have to take care of business first, but I will give these current production tubes a work out to say, "Mississippi Queen." I just haven't decided what amp to use. My TSL122 is gutted out in the back and it's easy to access all of the tubes, but I thought it would be fun to try some of this out on my 401. I know how it sounds, so putting different tubes in it will catch my ear right away...for the better or worse.

Stay tuned. More to follow.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I can't wait to find out if the 5751 acts like a 12AX7. I mean it tested so damn high, you have to wonder what the gain factor is on that tube? 5751's were made to run quiet, so if this has more gain than a regular 5751, in a ways it becomes like a 7025, which is an extra quiet, high gain 12AX7. This is probably going to be a V1 tube with say an RCA in V2. That should produce the blues sound you like so much. I've never tested that tube in an amp, so I am really more curious about its gain factor than anything else, but after all, it's a Tung-Sol.
> 
> I have taken a look at the tubes you sent me. Thank you, BTW. The older Tung-Sol's were made with longer plates. Now they have short plates and the Mullards have long plates. The JJ's have long plates as well. One of my 602's came with two tubes marked, "Marshall" and the other two were Sovtek WA's. I can't stand the WA or the WB, as they both are prone to microphonics and they are screechy in the mid-highs. The shame is the Sovteks look like well made tubes. Their best AX7 is the LPS and it is not recommended for combo amps (microphonics). The LPS is sort of a copy of a ribbed plate Telefunken. The difference is that you can use the Telefunken in a combo without it breaking up. So just looking at the three brands, the Tung-Sol's are made with the combo in mind. Short, tight plates.
> 
> I got real busy with work and I have to take care of business first, but I will give these current production tubes a work out to say, "Mississippi Queen." I just haven't decided what amp to use. My TSL122 is gutted out in the back and it's easy to access all of the tubes, but I thought it would be fun to try some of this out on my 401. I know how it sounds, so putting different tubes in it will catch my ear right away...for the better or worse.
> 
> Stay tuned. More to follow.
> 
> Marty



Here is how I rank those new production tubes in my Marshall, NT and my HT Dual pedal which uses 1 12AX7.

1. Mullard is my favorite now. Use to be the Tung Sol but I like the Mullard across all 3 circuits I'm using it in. Warm, smooth but good frequency range and nice gain. Works good in any position.
2. Tung Sol next. Warm, fat pretty good gain. Seems to pay off in V1.
3. JJ's. Flat frequency, lifeless high gain tube. It was bad in all 3 circuits I used it in. Others really like them and that's cool it works for them.

I know what you mean about the Sovtec WA's. Now I like and use the LPS in my Marshall which of course is a head. I don't have to worry about it like in the combo. Usually I use it in the PI but I have tried it in V1 and it put a little hair on the gain in a good way, I thought. It did well in the NT too. Never tried it in the HT Dual.

The 5751 is going to be interesting since its testing so high. We'll see how that pans out. I'll put it in V1 and go from there with the mixes. I'll be testing it in the NT first. I finally added some delay to the NT and man does it sound tasty! I really like the amp. It ain't big and bad like the DSL but its light and toneful and has its own neat little personality that oozez's the bluzez's. 

Whenever you get a chance to demo them new dogs I look forward to hearing about your opinion. Try both amps and take your time man. Have fun!


----------



## solarburn

Hey Marty check this out. Somebody recommended these tubes to this guy:



> I was all set to dump my DSL 100 because I was sick of the harsh treble and undefined distortion. Your recommendation to add a Mullard CV4024
> and GE 5751 were dead on. With the Mullard in V1 and GE in V2, the amp sounds like a new animal. The distortion is round, and smooth, yet
> still very aggressive, and the cleans are great as well. My rhythm work sounds so defined, even at high gain, and the leads just have nice,
> thick fat edge to them. Overall, the Marshall sounds so much more musical and articulate with these tubes in it. It really puts the JJ's
> that were in it to shame. You've totally opened my eyes to just how much of a difference tubes can make.




Another guy like me! I had to post this to elicit a giggle or 2 from you. I wonder how many more are out there taming their Marshall's like this?

Of course getting the JJ's out of the preamp must have been a significant change anyways. Those who like JJ's preamp tubes ignore me. Its a personal preference. I hate flat undefined preamp tubes mucking up my tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Marty check this out. Somebody recommended these tubes to this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another guy like me! I had to post this to elicit a giggle or 2 from you. I wonder how many more are out there taming their Marshall's like this?
> 
> Of course getting the JJ's out of the preamp must have been a significant change anyways. Those who like JJ's preamp tubes ignore me. Its a personal preference. I hate flat undefined preamp tubes mucking up my tone.



Wow! Another Joe walking around. Incredible! No, actually it's not a big shock. Some people prefer a little "rounding off" of the high gain. As you told me, you may not prefer it 100 per cent of the time, but for certain situations it's the sound that you shoot for. Using those tubes is not going to kill the amp. The example I like to use is, "It just changes the window for tone capabilities." With AX7's the tone window is different and so is the gain. Using lower gain tubes mean that you will find yourself turning up the master volume more to get to a stage level sound. You should be able to turn the master up quite high without any breakup, unless you are using an OD or distortion pedal. Lower gain tubes basically prevent the power tubes from getting snotty. As I said, they will stay pretty much clean.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! Another Joe walking around. Incredible! No, actually it's not a big shock. Some people prefer a little "rounding off" of the high gain. As you told me, you may not prefer it 100 per cent of the time, but for certain situations it's the sound that you shoot for. Using those tubes is not going to kill the amp. The example I like to use is, "It just changes the window for tone capabilities." With AX7's the tone window is different and so is the gain. Using lower gain tubes mean that you will find yourself turning up the master volume more to get to a stage level sound. You should be able to turn the master up quite high without any breakup, unless you are using an OD or distortion pedal. Lower gain tubes basically prevent the power tubes from getting snotty. As I said, they will stay pretty much clean.
> 
> Marty



I like my Marshall pissed off once in awhile so the 12AX7 infusion of NOS is staying in it.  Besides I have the NT for my subtler playing. :cool2:


----------



## steelhorse

What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp _and then_ spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated.

I'll take 'flat and undefined' against your investment any day at a gig and we'll see how many come up to you and say omg, your tone was SO much better than that guy!

Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me 

Sorry I couldn't ignore the JJ statement.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just got a nice surprise in the mail. I bid on seven 6BQ5/EL84's the other day. It was a Power Seller and he just had them listed as, "Seven Sylvania 6BQ5's, NOS." No test figures as he was selling them NOS. I get the tubes and I get 8 instead of 7. Wow! That was a plus for several reasons. I take them out of the boxes to test them and, "Holy Cow," five of them are black plate. I test the BP's and they all match perfectly within one to two points. Out of the three gray plates, one was older and a mouse had ate the end of the box off. It tested 82 and the other two tested 86. The BP's tested between 86 and 88.

Other tube news: I won three NOS, NIB 7025's. Can't wait to test them. This is the ultimate V1 tube, especially if it reads at least 27/27. Perfect for matching up to an ICBM in V2. In addition, I won two RCA 7025's and I am waiting on them. I have just a small number of 7025's left, maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to restock. I also have two new in box 12AX7A Westinghouse tubes coming in. Finally, I received two Mullard Blackburn plant XF4 EL34's. I was able to get them for $99 plus shipping. I tested them and they test at a whooping 99/100. So now I have a pair of Mullards for my other 602. Like I say, a good, balanced retubing is like doing a mod on your amp. You can hear the difference.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp _and then_ spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated.
> 
> I'll take 'flat and undefined' against your investment any day at a gig and we'll see how many come up to you and say omg, your tone was SO much better than that guy!
> 
> Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me
> 
> Sorry I couldn't ignore the JJ statement.



I know you like them SH but I'm not afraid to say I don't. I told you to ignore me. So touchy!

I need all the help I can get tone wise man. You would too if you played like me.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just got a nice surprise in the mail. I bid on seven 6BQ5/EL84's the other day. It was a Power Seller and he just had them listed as, "Seven Sylvania 6BQ5's, NOS." No test figures as he was selling them NOS. I get the tubes and I get 8 instead of 7. Wow! That was a plus for several reasons. I take them out of the boxes to test them and, "Holy Cow," five of them are black plate. I test the BP's and they all match perfectly within one to two points. Out of the three gray plates, one was older and a mouse had ate the end of the box off. It tested 82 and the other two tested 86. The BP's tested between 86 and 88.
> 
> Other tube news: I won three NOS, NIB 7025's. Can't wait to test them. This is the ultimate V1 tube, especially if it reads at least 27/27. Perfect for matching up to an ICBM in V2. In addition, I won two RCA 7025's and I am waiting on them. I have just a small number of 7025's left, maybe 8 or 9 and I wanted to restock. I also have two new in box 12AX7A Westinghouse tubes coming in. Finally, I received two Mullard Blackburn plant XF4 EL34's. I was able to get them for $99 plus shipping. I tested them and they test at a whooping 99/100. So now I have a pair of Mullards for my other 602. Like I say, a good, balanced retubing is like doing a mod on your amp. You can hear the difference.
> 
> Marty



What are NIB 7025's? Ooh, I want to hear about the Mullard El34's and how they sound. You are having too much fun with the glass. Keep me posted.

New In Box 7025's. Google was my friend.


----------



## steelhorse

My bad, I was being facetious, mostly


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> My bad, I was being facetious, mostly



Well, I came off a bit nasty about the JJ's. I'll try to control my malicious mischief after all someone was not going to like my comment.

Peace my Brother of dandy tones!


----------



## steelhorse

heh, it's all good


----------



## steelhorse

*Re: Preamp Tubes... A New Arrival In The Family*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks to our man Marty there's a new(NOS) ICBM in the house that I am just jonesin' to get into my amp. It's a Raytheon BP (35/35). Here's the pics...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Boy, oh boy... I can't wait!!!



ooohhh pretty


----------



## solarburn

Are we sick? Why does that look so sexy...and the last one looks like its burn'n.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> My bad, I was being facetious, mostly



No you're not. I'm of that small percentage of players who crave NOS tubes. Like a story about Marshall's heritage, I feel the same way about a 1962 GE Short Plate as someone would cherish a Plexi. There are some who would say, "He spent $5000 for an all original Plexi. He could have bought himself a new Marshall like a VM or a 410." The same holds true for the need for old tubes. I could by the current stuff, but to me, NOS adds character to your amp.

As far a someone in a crowd recognizing my tone over anyone else's? Ain't gonna happen, because not only can the crowd not sense a players tone, they cannot sense talent. I've seen the worst guitar players get the biggest applause. So that in itself makes the tone issue a moot point.

I told Puffer Fish that as long as I can buy a 12AX7 NOS for $25, that is what I will be running in my amps. From a technical standpoint, NOS tubes can handle a lot more plate voltage. Some of the current preamp tubes are designed right at the voltage operating point. This gives no ground for error. If you get a slight voltage surge, damage could result. Also, I still hold that the quality of materials and coatings used are better than what they are using today. Back when tubes ruled, it was all about making a tube that was better than the competition...spare no costs. Nowadays, it's all about the cost per unit and the bottom line. This formula usually means cheap, cheap, cheap. I mean it is bad when the Tube Store advertises that Sovtek's are no good for combos. To me, that is like saying cheap tube, do not buy. However, what is worse is that one of my 602's came from the factory with two Sovtek WA's in it (V3 and V4) and they are horrible! 

I've never met an NOS tube I didn't like. (He-He, that's my Will Rogers imitation.) 

There will come a day when NOS will no longer be available. By then, I will be near retirement and I probably will have sold all my gear off. In 2020 how much do you think an RCA 12AX7 will bring?

Some people like to roll tubes and the whole point is to get the best tone with the tubes available. Maybe you have six. Maybe you have sixty. The point is, it's harmless fun. You stick one in and maybe it puts a smile on your face when you palm mute a broken A chord and you can tell the difference over the tube you had pulled out. A while back, I was happy with the NOS tubes in my amp. But because of this forum, I realized that my amps could sound even better. It doesn't matter if anyone else can tell it, it only matters to me. Two tubes changed my whole perception about how my amps could (and should) sound. Now I've replaced tubes in my other amps as well, making sure I have a high gainer in V2 and a 7025 in V1. That is what really makes my TSL's come alive with a super clean channel and crunch-a-bunch. 

Now for a while I got a little nuts with tube rolling and was spending too much time on it, but that was because I had a lot of experimenting to do. Now that I've found the formula, I can drop it a notch or two. What I have learned is that NOS tubes have character. (Did I say that already?)

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What are NIB 7025's? Ooh, I want to hear about the Mullard El34's and how they sound. You are having too much fun with the glass. Keep me posted.
> 
> New In Box 7025's. Google was my friend.



That's right, it means New In Box. These are cherished over NOS tubes that may be sold with or without the original box. What it means is that you are getting a tube that is still in its original box and never used. Swwweeeet!

I can't wait to get the Mullards in. I called them EL34's, but they are actually 6CA7's. Probably made for sale in the US only. Basically the same tube. I'm just happy that they tested so strong. The 602's run a lot hotter B+ at 500V and these old Mullards just laugh at that, as they can take 800V. Once I get them in place and biased, I will give you a tone report. Looks like a lot of this is going to be this weekend.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

How can you prove that it's actually never been played or used though? I'm just wondering is there some fool proof scientific method to prove that's the case?

I'm a skeptic of such claims which is why I ask.


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> How can you prove that it's actually never been played or used though? I'm just wondering is there some fool proof scientific method to prove that's the case?
> 
> I'm a skeptic of such claims which is why I ask.



Would you care about a full proof scientific method if the tube tested as "good"? If after that test you roll it in your amp and find the position that sounds best. Then you use that tube for a very long time and it performs and outlasts a new production tube by a significant time span. The only way to find that out is a real world test. 

So after some financial risk, cause you pay more money for what is perceived to be better tone and a longer lasting tube, you find out: 
1. It offered better tone and longevity.
2. It is worth it to me compared to new production tubes.

Now with new production tubes I have to take the vendor's word that he has the machine to properly burn in a tube and he is actually using it. That when matched is stated its what I am really getting. Are the numbers written on the tubes really representative of the testing procedure or are they just a dressing to make it appear so. What full proof scientific test do I have at my disposal to use on these tubes so I know I am getting what I'm suppose to? Warrantees generally last 90 days so at least there is some recourse early on for failure. After that we all in the same boat.

Initially I have to just trust that I'm getting what I'm paying for. Then my tests begin. In the amp it goes and I play. The test last as long as the tubes do. I come to my conclusions and probably share my findings with others.

To me after testing a NOS tube and finding it is good, the only scientific test a person has left to do is put it in their amp and see what happens for how long.

If you get stuck at "show me a full proof scientific test" that the tube is NIB then you take a pass on the real important stuff like how does the tube perform and will it last. There is a risk involved. Do I take a chance? Whats the penalty for failure versus the desired outcome? 

IMO if you can't test a NOS, NIB tube then you are foolish to buy them. You got to be able to tell if it is in working order or not. The guy or vendor better take em' back after initial testing too if bad. Marty is my scientific tester and I don't even consider spending alot of money anyways even though I'm interested in NOS tubes. Every once in awhile its fun to do NOS for me. Its given me better tone characteristics I like in my Marshall. I can use new production tubes just fine. Hell I'll play SS if that's all I have and enjoy it cause I get to play. Its my back up rig anyways.


----------



## steelhorse

Not sure where you were going with this but all I wanted to know was how you were ensured they were actually NIB NOS?

There is a premium for those tubes correct?

It doesn't matter to me personally either way I'm just posing the question because I'm not going to pay a premium for anything unless I have assurances and some way of corroborating the claims of the dealer and that's just not for tubes either.

So in the end after pretty much not getting a straight answer there is no way to tell.

Like someone else in another thread say why pay a few hundred dollars for an amp only to spend hundreds upon hundred more on mods and all of these tubes?

Makes more sense to me and imo to chase the amp that already has the tone one is looking for and invest in that instead.

Kind of like buying a car. Why buy a vette only to spend big bucks trying to get it to perform like a Ferrari, why not just invest in the real thing?


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> Not sure where you were going with this but all I wanted to know was how you were ensured they were actually NIB NOS?
> 
> There is a premium for those tubes correct?
> 
> It doesn't matter to me personally either way I'm just posing the question because I'm not going to pay a premium for anything unless I have assurances and some way of corroborating the claims of the dealer and that's just not for tubes either.
> 
> So in the end after pretty much not getting a straight answer there is no way to tell.
> 
> Like someone else in another thread say why pay a few hundred dollars for an amp only to spend hundreds upon hundred more on mods and all of these tubes?
> 
> Makes more sense to me and imo to chase the amp that already has the tone one is looking for and invest in that instead.
> 
> Kind of like buying a car. Why buy a vette only to spend big bucks trying to get it to perform like a Ferrari, why not just invest in the real thing?



Wow. After all that you get to dismiss it as if one little query wasn't addressed or answered. Last time I go there. 

I need to take a break from zee forum. I may be getting caught up in stuff I should just pass on. Later peeps.


----------



## steelhorse

It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS? 

In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you.

You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes.

I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear.

Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing?

But all it is imo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS?
> 
> In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you.
> 
> You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes.
> 
> I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear.
> 
> Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing?
> 
> But all it is imo.



Let's not blow a boiler! No need for that. Had a real nasty storm and my whole system was down. Looks like it came back on at the right time.

Steel, if you are buying NIB tubes from a broker, you will pay a flat premium rate. However, if you are buying them on EBAY, just like anything else, you have to trust the seller. I look at what kind of seller they are, like a power seller with 7000 transaction, all mostly electronics. If he has a 96 per cent or better feedback, chances are he isn't going to lie about what he is selling.

Now for an example. I bid on three, NIB Lindal 7025's. My first thought is that Lindal didn't make tubes so they have been relabeled. All three tubes had been tested and one was normal, but two were high gain tubes. That's a plus. The tubes arrive and upon inspection, all of the print on the tubes are perfect. The glass is shiny and the pins aren't corroded. A quick glance at the etched tube number proves the tubes were made by RCA. Another big plus. At a winning bid of $51, I'm more than happy. (This is less than $20 a piece and that is in the same price range as a current production tube.)

If I win any tubes and some or all of them are dogs, I contact the seller and I return some, or all of them for a refund.

The bottom line is that these tubes in some instances are as old as me. It would be impossible to be 100 per cent positive that a tube has remained untouched in its box for 54 years. However, when a tube is sold as NOS NIB, it gives creditability to the tube itself. You know that when it arrives, it will be in a factory box and the tube itself will show no visible signs of wear or use.

Can a NOS tube go bad after a couple of weeks? Yes, but its never happened to me. Can a JJ go bad in a couple of weeks? Yes, and I've had that happen to me.

Joe sent me some new, current production tubes and I must say that the Mullards and the Tung-Sol's aren't that bad. I auditioned them in my DSL401 and I A/B'd them up against some pretty heavy competition like Amperex and real Mullards and a Raytheon Black Plate. The new stuff sounds good and I will give it a passing grade. If it was the only thing around, I would gladly use it, but I ended up with an RCA 7025 in V1 (33/35), an Amperex 12AX7 in V2 (31/31), an RCA 12AX7 short gray plate in V3 the tone stack (26/25) and a RCA short gray plate in V4 (26/28). For power, I installed four NOS NIB Sylvania 6BQ5 Black Plates from 1966. I biased these tubes almost as hot as the trim pot would let me go. These tubes can take high bias. I had Telefunkens in there and the BP's sound better. My 401 has never sounded this good. I want to plug it into one of my 4 X 12 cabs and run it that way.

Again, these are just my findings. They please me and that's alright. As I said, I'm not out to please the world...just me. I play that 401 all of the time and I know how it sounds and now it sounds better. In fact, I wish that I could bump the bias up hotter. I can, if I want to do a resistor mod on the bias circuit. The amp would probably sound even better.

So Steelhorse, this was a lot of wind in an attempt to answer your question. The bottom line is that you take a risk with any tube you buy, new or old. However you buy it, you'll want to make sure that you can return it if it doesn't meet your specifications. Also, I value your opinion. Not everyone is going to go ga-ga over NOS tubes and that's fine. I've told Josh that I've come to the conclusion that I'm not a big fan of the Yellow Jackets. He understands and he knows that not everyone is going to go out and buy a pair. So if you want to air out anything negative about NOS tubes, you have my permission. That's what the forum and this thread are all about.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

The primary difference is new tubes are warrantied and like I said this isn't bash and I mean that, it's puzzling that so much is invested in these things.

Far as I can tell you and a few others here are serious hobbyists about tubes and seem to know your stuff and if I had a question about how far to bias a particular tube I'd be as apt to ask you, Marty, then I would anyone else.

I'm dangling on the fence on whether to get one of my VM's modded by FJA not because of his price because it's really not bad price considering what I'm wanting done (please no questions about that because that's something I'd rather someone ask him directly since it is his business, I'm just a potential customer), it's the shipping back and forth that I'm needing to accept, but I'd be more apt to invest in that sort of thing that also increases the value (after all it's not one of the holy grail amps that should be pristine) and versatility (it would make it a 2 channel 2 mode amp + ) that's the primary reason I'm asking, no offense intended.


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> It was a simple question. I asked how do you know they are actually NIB or NOS?
> 
> In fact I don't think the question was even directed to you.
> 
> You took it upon yourself to push my query aside like I don't know a thing about tone and tubes.
> 
> I re-directed the question and wanted to understand the logic of spending this kind of $ on essentially middle of the road gear.
> 
> Why not just either get the amp that already sounds the way you want it to or spend the money to get it modded to do the same thing?
> 
> But all it is imo.



I answered your question. You just didn't get or like my approach. I didn't push your query aside and it never entered my mind I was talking to you as if you knew nothing about tubes or tone. Now it sounds like I disturbed you. You respond to posts not directed to you? Me too. Its a forum. Up for grabs. 

Why don't you just feel better about you not having to waste all that money on mods and tube chasing and be done with it. You are already convinced it isn't necessary. Your tone is fine the way it is. Got it. What if you can't prove the tubes are NIB or NOS? Then what? Why do others even do it then? Are their results even real or is it in their heads?

We're talking about using NOS tubes and some of us spend money on mods because we can. To get better tone out of that particular amp. Yeah it worked for me. So do the tubes. These things aren't necessary. I don't have better tone than others. I believe I have better tone than I had though and I have a more durable amp. Can you believe I wasted money on that? I should have just bought an amp that sounded like a modded DSL50 in the first place.

I bet you've got more gear and spent more money on it than me. Why? Chasing tone? Taste for something different? Needed something else? Cause you can?

You're not into NOS tubes. You don't buy them. You don't need them. We find it worth while to improve the amps we have.


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> The primary difference is new tubes are warrantied and like I said this isn't bash and I mean that, it's puzzling that so much is invested in these things.
> 
> Far as I can tell you and a few others here are serious hobbyists about tubes and seem to know your stuff and if I had a question about how far to bias a particular tube I'd be as apt to ask you, Marty, then I would anyone else.
> 
> I'm dangling on the fence on whether to get one of my VM's modded by FJA not because of his price because it's really not bad price considering what I'm wanting done (please no questions about that because that's something I'd rather someone ask him directly since it is his business, I'm just a potential customer), it's the shipping back and forth that I'm needing to accept, but I'd be more apt to invest in that sort of thing that also increases the value (after all it's not one of the holy grail amps that should be pristine) and versatility (it would make it a 2 channel 2 mode amp + ) that's the primary reason I'm asking, no offense intended.




Whatever. I'm spun. Too much coffee for me. Wish you the best in your new endeavor. 

Love Jerry's mods. He will work with you to get just what you want out of that amp as humanly or tech savvy as he can.

Look forward to being able to talk with you about it. A fan.


----------



## steelhorse

You still didn't answer my question, Marty who the original question was directed at _did_.

Thanks!


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> You still didn't answer my question, Marty who the original question was directed at _did_.
> 
> Thanks!



He's a wee bit sharper than me here. :eek2:

I definitely trust him and he's got good advice for me who is a NOS noob. Also sells me great sounding tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> The primary difference is new tubes are warrantied and like I said this isn't bash and I mean that, it's puzzling that so much is invested in these things.
> 
> Far as I can tell you and a few others here are serious hobbyists about tubes and seem to know your stuff and if I had a question about how far to bias a particular tube I'd be as apt to ask you, Marty, then I would anyone else.
> 
> I'm dangling on the fence on whether to get one of my VM's modded by FJA not because of his price because it's really not bad price considering what I'm wanting done (please no questions about that because that's something I'd rather someone ask him directly since it is his business, I'm just a potential customer), it's the shipping back and forth that I'm needing to accept, but I'd be more apt to invest in that sort of thing that also increases the value (after all it's not one of the holy grail amps that should be pristine) and versatility (it would make it a 2 channel 2 mode amp + ) that's the primary reason I'm asking, no offense intended.



Going by what you said, about halfway back in this thread I posted the cost on getting the transfomers upgraded on say my TSL100. It would be at or over $1000. I paid $700 for my TSL100. I also found out that a choke mod is only beneficial on say a 100 watt amp. Doing a choke mod on my 401 would not be worth the money and the same could possibly be said for a 50 or 60 watt amps. Yet everyday, someone is forking over the dough for a trannie upgrade. It makes the cost of tubes look small and at least with tubes you can hear an immediate difference, or at least I can.

I agree with you that you have a product and it is worth "X" amount. How much money do you want to invest in it for "Y" amount of results? If you plan on keeping the amp (X), then the investment can be spread over the course of two or three years. 

Shipping is a pain in the ass. Heads aren't as bad as 212 Combo's. If you don't do a stellar job, then it might end up at FJA in pieces and that would suck tit on a boar hog. If you do go ahead with this and you need any packing tips, just ask. The main thing is you want to go with a double box.

Thanks for your input and opinions.

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

I was quoted much less (and I mean much less) than that for my VM (I bought this 2266 brand new in October as a display model) and it's the full meal deal, it's the shipping that's holding me back. I have my own fedex accounts so it's not as bad. I'm still debating.

I have a flight case and a foam in place double box for my Marshall's so that's not an issue.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> I was quoted much less (and I mean much less) than that for my VM (I bought this 2266 brand new in October as a display model) and it's the full meal deal, it's the shipping that's holding me back. I have my own fedex accounts so it's not as bad. I'm still debating.
> 
> I have a flight case and a foam in place double box for my Marshall's so that's not an issue.



Good! You have your shipping taken care of and I like FedEx a lot better than UPS. It's just a matter of if and when.


----------



## steelhorse

I have just one more thing to try out (a pedal) but I'm teetering on the edge of going for it.


----------



## solarburn

Here is the vid of the DSL mod I got that pushed me over the edge to get it. I already had the MM OT. I had Jerry do the circuit and add a choke.

YouTube - FJA modded DSL Mercury 2


----------



## steelhorse

Sweet!! That sounds great!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Black Plate Missle*



MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, I forgot. Have you tried out your BP missle yet? Let me know. Kevin gave me good reviews on the set that I sold him.
> 
> Marty




Hey Marty... I have played with it just a _wee bit_. However I got sidetracked by the Yellow Jacket debacle. So far all I can say is Holy Crap Batman! This thing is ready to blow the roof off my house! I am blown away by the gain on tap. Almost literally. You sure hit that one outta the ball park. 

But... It's late (and I'm not a night owl), so I'll leave it at that for now... 

I think I'm gradually closing in on "my tone"... Perhaps next on my list is to find a good V3/Tone Stack tube (pulled the GT that was there and threw in the GE 12AX7 you sent me)...

Don't worry there will be more later. I will issue a full report when I am not inebriated with drowsiness. Until then, take care and rest assured that you have one majorly satisfied customer, Plain and simple... You Rock!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Burning a light bulb out. At least it was on stand-by. I think this is the first time I've done it. Anyways I suppose a tube or 2 could have gone out but not necessarily....





MartyStrat54 said:


> It's not going to do a darn thing, except be on all night. Yeah, the tubes rack up some on time, but oh well, they are usually good for 3 to 5,000 hours.
> 
> As long as you have speakers hooked up everything will be okay, regardless of whether the stand-by switch is on or off...
> 
> ... Hang in there. The NT will still be a rollin'. It's not damaged.
> 
> Marty



Hey there Solar...

I was watching some vids this morning in a vain attempt to get my mind to wake up, and these posts of yours & Marty's came to mind. I know, again with the repetition already!  This is a video of some of Mesa's QC procedures, which for a rather large manufacturer I thought was fairly intensive, and one of the things they do is... Power up the amps, w/ a load, take 'em off standby, and let 'em cook for 24 hours (this part is about 8 minutes into the video). So, just like our guru was sayin', if just bein' on over night damages something, then it was a piece of junk before that anyway. Your amp should be able to do that "standing on it's head!" 

Mesa Boogie Factory Tour-Assembly & "Hammer Test" - PremierGuitar.com

Anyways, I love stuff like this because it just reaffirms to me that I'm not completely crazy. And it really is yet another notch in Marty's pistol for never steering us wrong. Like we'd ever doubt him! Rock on Marty! And rock on SolarBurn! 





PS... I would love to see some of Marshall's manufacturing and QC techniques...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey there Solar...
> 
> I was watching some vids this morning in a vain attempt to get my mind to wake up, and these posts of yours & Marty's came to mind. I know, again with the repetition already!  This is a video of some of Mesa's QC procedures, which for a rather large manufacturer I thought was fairly intensive, and one of the things they do is... Power up the amps, w/ a load, take 'em off standby, and let 'em cook for 24 hours (this part is about 8 minutes into the video). So, just like our guru was sayin', if just bein' on over night damages something, then it was a piece of junk before that anyway. Your amp should be able to do that "standing on it's head!"
> 
> Mesa Boogie Factory Tour-Assembly & "Hammer Test" - PremierGuitar.com
> 
> Anyways, I love stuff like this because it just reaffirms to me that I'm not completely crazy. And it really is yet another notch in Marty's pistol for never steering us wrong. Like we'd ever doubt him! Rock on Marty! And rock on SolarBurn!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS... I would love to see some of Marshall's manufacturing and QC techniques...



Thanks Josh. You know I almost did it again. Left it on for about 5 hrs. I think I have a handle on it. Got myself trained to turn it off right away now he he.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee...now Josh's dad is posting on the forum and man did he get some eggs cracked over his head. Josh, it's time you had a talk with your dad. Look what he went and did.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/5956-sad-sad-sad-day-marshallland.html

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee...now Josh's dad is posting on the forum and man did he get some eggs cracked over his head. Josh, it's time you had a talk with your dad. Look what he went and did.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/5956-sad-sad-sad-day-marshallland.html
> 
> Marty



Sorry mate. Mission Impossible protocol dictates that in the event of capture I must disavow any knowledge of the captured agent... And since I actually don't know joshuasdad, I think I can successfully pull that off! 

... Sorry joshuasdad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He-he-he.





Marty-Certified to be not affiliated in any way, shape or form with Joshua's Dad.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty... My tube Guru... Here's some questioning for you... I found an old Admiral TV from the 50's at a garage sale today for $6. I figured, "Eh, what the heck." So I brought it home and started pulling tubes. Here's what I've come up with, are any of these useful or worth anything at all?

Admiral 6AU6 1-52
Made In USA 2 14
________________________________

USA
12AU7A 6048 ARDS(?)
Anline (?) 274
________________________________

Admiral 6S4
Made in USA
________________________________

TUNG-SOL 322233
Made In USA
________________________________

TUNG-SOL 6AL5
Made In USA 3221-16
________________________________

6BQ7
A GE Electronic
59-17 TUBE
188-5 Made In USA
________________________________

Raytheon 6 104
UNILINE U(or J)6A Made In USA
First In Quality
________________________________

SYLVANIA 1 
Made In USA 3
4
________________________________

6AU6
418 1
SYLVANIA _
Made In USA 3
________________________________

6AU6 (RCA maybe?)
________________________________

Admiral 6AU6
Made In USA 1-52
 274
________________________________

Admiral 6AG5
made In USA
274
________________________________

Admiral 1-53
Made In USA 274
________________________________

Made 6V6
In GI 51 21
USA WO
NU
NATIONAL UNION ELECTRON TUBE
________________________________

GE Electronic Tube 6BQ66A
Made In USA ----------
6CU6
________________________________

Admiral 32
Made In USA 10 6SN7
29 GT
________________________________

GE Electronic Tube 6W4
Made In USA GT
________________________________

1-22 KEN-RAD 6AC7
188-5 Made In USA 1852
________________________________

1-17 KEN-RAD 6SN7
188-5 Made In USA GTA
________________________________

























































And more at: Tubes pictures from music photos on webshots

Any thoughts mate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

To bad it didn't have a built in radio or phono, then you would have struck gold as there would have been 12AX7's, 12AT7's and a pair of power tubes like 6V6 or 6BQ5's (EL84's).

The big funky looking tube is probably a "coke bottle" 5U4GB. That would be a rectifier tube. The 6V6 and the 6SN7 are keepers. I would have bought it myself, just to get all of the resistors and mica caps and other odd components that you can't find anymore like "bumble bee caps." 

Take a pair of side-cutters and strip all of the components out of it and just put it away. 

I wish I could say something more positive, it's just that straight tube TV's use TV tubes. Now if you had found an all tube record player for $6 that would be a different story...

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> To bad it didn't have a built in radio or phono, then you would have struck gold as there would have been 12AX7's, 12AT7's and a pair of power tubes like 6V6 or 6BQ5's (EL84's)...
> 
> ... I would have bought it myself, just to get all of the resistors and mica caps and other odd components that you can't find anymore like "bumble bee caps."
> 
> Take a pair of side-cutters and strip all of the components out of it and just put it away...



Far out. It was kinda fun. So... It was overall in pretty rough shape. I pulled every tube and cut out the best of the parts that were left... But there's really not much there. I'll tell ya what.... You've been uber helpful, so have a look at the pics of what's there (Tubes pictures from music photos on webshots starting after the THD Yellow Jacket shots) and if there is anything you want just say let me know and I'll send it out to you asap. It ain't much, but it's a small thanks... Besides... I clearly have no idea what to do with most of it anyway...

Dumb, Dumb, Da, Dumb...

I plan on looking through garage sales this summer for old tube radios and the like. It might be a cool way to find tubes and components. This was definitely my first foray into this endeavor. This time most of the caps and other parts had burst, bubbled, and corroded. But next time... Who knows? And at garage sale prices... What's to lose? Especially if I find some original American made tubes.

Yeah... I must be loopy... I am rambling today. Sorry guys.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Any ideas what brand this 12AU7 is? I can't quite read it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Any ideas what brand this 12AU7 is? I can't quite read it...



Looks like an old "Monkey Wards" Airline tube. It's a relabeled tube. If the tube number is inside of a long octagon box, it is an RCA. If it has the part number etched in the glass with USA, it is a Sylvania. Otherwise, it is hard to tell when the MFG's code is worn off. All electrical/electronic companies have a three digit EIA code. (Google EIA Codes for more info). These three digits are in essence the "true" brand of the tube. 

As far as buying old electronics, you only need to find one good tube to more than make up for the purchase price. I usually spend 5 to 10 dollars on old record players and TV's. The good tubes and other electrical components will easily exceed the purchase price. I have boxes of components that I have salvaged from old audio gear. However, the best feeling is when you find a pair or a quad of 7199 or 6BQ5 power tubes and they still test strong. That's cause for celebration. 

I'll take another look, but I probably won't need any of the tubes, but I will look through them again and let you know.

Marty


----------



## zimske

hey guys! i'm new here and loving this topic!

i've just posted a new thread about changing the tubes in my 100W 2203 head without seeing this and figured this one gives the answers to most of my questions. 

what's your general opinion on jj tubes? i was thinking on retubing the el34s with kt77 given the fact they have more headroom and better clean? is that a fact?
what preamp tubes would you recommend for this amp? i was thinking JJ ECC81 (12AT7) or ECC82 (12AU7) with kt77's. what can i expect from the amp to sound like with these?


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> hey guys! i'm new here and loving this topic!
> 
> i've just posted a new thread about changing the tubes in my 100W 2203 head without seeing this and figured this one gives the answers to most of my questions.
> 
> what's your general opinion on jj tubes? i was thinking on retubing the el34s with kt77 given the fact they have more headroom and better clean? is that a fact?
> what preamp tubes would you recommend for this amp? i was thinking JJ ECC81 (12AT7) or ECC82 (12AU7) with kt77's. what can i expect from the amp to sound like with these?



Welcome to the Club!

I like JJ KT-77's which I've tried and still have sitting in my drawer. Saving for later. The tubes were robust, good lows and the cleans were outstanding on these. I hear the 34L's are really good in a Marshall too.

That's a loaded question for me regarding JJ preamp tubes that I will pass on. I prefer other preamp tubes. I like to tailor my gain here for my DSL. Lots of experimenting I've done.

Someone with your amp may have better suggestions but I'm really particular with mine. I will say I like Mullard RI, Tung SOl RI, AC5's and NOS. You can see in my sig what I have now.


----------



## zimske

hey solarburn! tnx for the info.

thing is, i'm a heavy tube noob (a toob ), so any kind of info is great, but like you've said, it'd be awesome if someone with 2203 jcm800 would tap into here.

anyway, two days in, i'm almost there with the power tubes, and i think it'll be KT77's in case i can put them in my amp without any modifications to the amp, and i figure they are directly replaceable with el34, plug-and-play style, so i just need an expert's confirmation. even though amp's manual confirms this, i'm still not convinced, first hand experience is a must. 

it's preamp tube time, now.... and god knows how much time i'm gonna lose on this.

say, me being a newbie here, can any of you guys point me to the Ultimate Jesus Marshall Authority here? there's gotta be one here, right?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

zimske said:


> ... it's preamp tube time, now.... and god knows how much time i'm gonna lose on this.
> 
> say, me being a newbie here, can any of you guys point me to the Ultimate Jesus Marshall Authority here? there's gotta be one here, right?



Welcome! This is a great forum and a great thread, and I know you'll get lots of useful feedback.

"Ultimate Jesus Marshall Authority"... Whew! That's a tall order mate! There are a lot of very knowledgeable folks here. But sinse we are talking pre-amp tubes... Marty (MartyStrat54) is really my guru. You might drop him a line if you have something specific.

I'd have to say I'm in line w/ Solar when it comes to JJ's. I do run JJ EL34L's for power tubes, and am actually really happy with them, but when it comes to pre-amp tubes... They just don't thrill me. Not much life to them, if you know what I mean. I plan on experimenting w/ some different new production tubes in the future, but as of late I've been using NOS pre-amp tubes and loving it. Marty hooked me up w/ a really high gain Raytheon 12AX7 Blackplate (that is one hot tube), and he also turned me onto the 12BZ7 (the one I am currently running I found on eBay) as a pre-amp tube. The 12BZ7 is a great sounding 12AX7 substitute. You can read about this earlier on this thread.

Anyhoo... That's my two cents for now. Again, Welcome! ... And feel free to ask anything, or comment any time on the forum. I know you're gonna love it here!


----------



## zimske

thank, josh, but from what i've read and managed to figure myself (even though i may be completely wrong on this), i most definitely don't need high gain preamp tubes cause i've enough of pedals in front of me to deliver the distortion. of course, i don't see why high gain tubes AND distortion pedals should be, and probably aren't, mutually exclusive, but i simply don't see the need for the high gain preamp tubes. if you could tell me why exactly would or wouldn't one want to have these, and the impact on the behaviour and sound of amp itself.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

zimske said:


> thank, josh, but from what i've read and managed to figure myself (even though i may be completely wrong on this), i most definitely don't need high gain preamp tubes cause i've enough of pedals in front of me to deliver the distortion. of course, i don't see why high gain tubes AND distortion pedals should be, and probably aren't, mutually exclusive, but i simply don't see the need for the high gain preamp tubes. if you could tell me why exactly would or wouldn't one want to have these, and the impact on the behaviour and sound of amp itself.



For me the distortion coming from the amp always just plain sounds better to my ears than that coming from a pedal. But that's all about personal taste. As far as lower gain pre-amp tubes go... I'd really have to defer to Marty & Solar on that subject. They've both commented previously on the thread about some tubes that work will in this application. I have a 12AU7 that I am not using that is (I believe) about 17% the of the gain that you'd find in a 12AX7 (give or take)... Another option may be a 12AY7. I have used the 12AY7 in the past in a lower gain amp to mellow and smooth things out... I believe that the 12AY7 has a gain factor of 45.... But like I said, I've been chasing high gain tubes and really don't have much to offer when it comes to low gain experiences. Solar seems to like things a beit lower and bluesier... I believe he boosts his signal with pedals to achieve his heavier sounds... Anyhoo... That's about all I can say on that subject. I hope it helps somewhat...



MartyStrat54 said:


> I posted the following on a different thread that had expanded into tube usage. I thought I would go ahead and post it here since it contains info on preamp tubes.
> 
> Marty
> 
> ************************************************************
> ... Some people want less gain. This allows the volume controls to be cranked more and therefore you get more power tube distortion (the 12BZ7 will give you more preamp gain and preamp distortion). The tubes of choice are a 12AT7 with a gain factor of 70, a 12AU7 with a gain factor of only 17 and a 5751 (which is a low noise, lower gain 12AX7) with a gain factor of 70. Other 12xx7 tubes with a 9A pin layout are: 12AX7A, 12AD7, 12DF7, 12DT7, 7025 (Ultra quiet, high gain 12AX7), and 12DM7. There are many more and some of these other tubes might work. I'm only listing what are known to be direct replacements for an ECC83/12AX7 tube. Note: If you want a super clean channel, I would recommend a 5751 or a 7025. This is what I use in V1. However the 5751 can be bought for less money than a 7025. The 7025 is very quiet, but has a gain factor of 100 like a 12AX7...



... This may also be helpful: Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> hey solarburn! tnx for the info.
> 
> thing is, i'm a heavy tube noob (a toob ), so any kind of info is great, but like you've said, it'd be awesome if someone with 2203 jcm800 would tap into here.
> 
> anyway, two days in, i'm almost there with the power tubes, and i think it'll be KT77's in case i can put them in my amp without any modifications to the amp, and i figure they are directly replaceable with el34, plug-and-play style, so i just need an expert's confirmation. even though amp's manual confirms this, i'm still not convinced, first hand experience is a must.
> 
> it's preamp tube time, now.... and god knows how much time i'm gonna lose on this.
> 
> say, me being a newbie here, can any of you guys point me to the Ultimate Jesus Marshall Authority here? there's gotta be one here, right?



Hey Zimske! Welcome to the thread. Just some quick points. The KT77's are a direct replacement for EL34's. They do provide a cleaner sound and they have more headroom. If that is the type of sound you want, than they are the tubes to use. A lot of guys on this forum have switched to KT's and they are really happy with them.

Preamp tubes. If you want less gain than I would recommend a 5751 or a 12AT7 in V1. Team this up with a good 12AX7 in V2 and this will work really good with the KT77's. What this does is that it changes what I call your window of sound. This setup will give you a high headroom rig. You will have to really crank your pre gain and master volume to get it screaming. This sort of setup lends itself to OD and distortion pedals, if that's your game.

Again, welcome to the show.

Marty


----------



## zimske

marty, you nailed it to the head!

now, i've only got the manufacturer to choose. josh, when you said that jj preamp tubes, basically, suck, did you mean specifically 12ax7 or their preamp tubes in general. if that's the case, should i be looking for something in the line of this?

anyway, on my Quest for the Tubes i contacted eurotubes, and here's an interesting thing the guy named eddie said about kt77s...



> They have a beastly low end compared to your typical EL34 along with a smooth mid range and a fairly present and aggressive high end.


.

...which i'm not sure i like, since the amp is currently, with poor lamps, a bit much too bright for my tastes. i can't know will these new tubes make it brighter or less bright. okay, that's what the treble and presence pots are for, to reduce the brightness, but how can i be sure i won't annoy bats even with the values reduced to zero? i mean, they can't be *that* bright, right? should i twack the infamous bright cap? am i going off topic? 
yelp.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

zimske said:


> marty, you nailed it to the head!
> 
> ... josh, when you said that jj preamp tubes, basically, suck, did you mean specifically 12ax7 or their preamp tubes in general. if that's the case, should i be looking for something in the line of this?...



Well... I wouldn't say that that JJ's _suck_. It really is a personal taste thing. I have a couple JJ's here (a Goldpin 12AX7 & an ECC83S (12AX7)) that do find rotation in and out of my amp from time to time. I don't think they are horrid, they just don't float my boat. They don't have the harmonic content that the NOS tubes I've been using seem to have. 

That being said, where I do typically use them (aside from using for trouble shooting because I know they are fully functional) is in the V3 & V4 positions where they seem to effect the harmonic content of my distortion less. That way I can have some tubes that really sing in V1 & V2.

Again it really is a personal taste issue and I would encourage you to buy a couple and compare them to more expensive new production and NOS tubes and see what floats your boat. Steelhorse uses JJ's and really seems to like them . Plus they are a lot less expensive than a Mullard. But in the end, it's your tone, and it's your ears, and only you know what sounds good to you. 



steelhorse said:


> What I prefer is not having to actually mod my amp _and then_ spending a gazillion man hours researching and spending the big bucks for NOS tubes only having to wind up sending them out to have them tested and evaluated...
> 
> ... Ain't gonna happen. I have a very critical ear and the JJ's hardly sound flat and undefined to me .


----------



## steelhorse

What exactly is harmonic content Josh?

Just kidding!

I'm sending someone over from another thread to ask about taming his JMP. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> marty, you nailed it to the head!
> 
> now, i've only got the manufacturer to choose. josh, when you said that jj preamp tubes, basically, suck, did you mean specifically 12ax7 or their preamp tubes in general. if that's the case, should i be looking for something in the line of this?
> 
> anyway, on my Quest for the Tubes i contacted eurotubes, and here's an interesting thing the guy named eddie said about kt77s...
> 
> ...which i'm not sure i like, since the amp is currently, with poor lamps, a bit much too bright for my tastes. i can't know will these new tubes make it brighter or less bright. okay, that's what the treble and presence pots are for, to reduce the brightness, but how can i be sure i won't annoy bats even with the values reduced to zero? i mean, they can't be *that* bright, right? should i twack the infamous bright cap? am i going off topic?
> yelp.



I think the guy was pushing to make a sale and thought you would dig what he had to say. KT's are cleaner (less gritty) than an EL34. He was just adding the mustard and the pickles and thought you would bite. Now I will say that there are some very different sounding EL34's out there. Take a look at these:

Tung-Sol EL34B

Mullard EL34

Winged "C" (SED) EL34

Read the full reviews on these and maybe you will want to stay with an EL34. You can Google the Tube Store or the Tube Depot and check prices, read reviews on preamp tubes and hopefully you will be able to find what it is you are looking for. 

FYI-You can get a smokin' 5751 at the Tube Store for about $20. Go to:

JAN-Philips 5751

The 12AT7 link is: JAN-Philips 12AT7WC

That should get you going in the right direction. Marty


----------



## solarburn

Marty, I'm going to send you that 5751 I have when I ship your's back. I'm really not going to use it cause I like the AT7's better as far as bringing things down a little and adding articulation.

I think my next set of power tubes will be some Winged C's. I just hear too many good things about them from other Marshall owner/players.

Here is another awesome performing AT7:

http://thetubestore.com/mul12atcv.html


----------



## zimske

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think the guy was pushing to make a sale and thought you would dig what he had to say. KT's are cleaner (less gritty) than an EL34. He was just adding the mustard and the pickles and thought you would bite.


yeah, something was fishy about him to begin with. i'm sure if i'd said i want bassles poweramp tubes with muddy mids that resemble green ketchup he'd confirm this as well. theh.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Now I will say that there are some very different sounding EL34's out there. Take a look at these:
> 
> Tung-Sol EL34B
> 
> Mullard EL34
> 
> Winged "C" (SED) EL34
> 
> Read the full reviews on these and maybe you will want to stay with an EL34. You can Google the Tube Store or the Tube Depot and check prices, read reviews on preamp tubes and hopefully you will be able to find what it is you are looking for.


dammit, i finally narrow down my poweramp tubes choice and what do you do? come *ON*! 

will do.



MartyStrat54 said:


> FYI-You can get a smokin' 5751 at the Tube Store for about $20. Go to:
> 
> JAN-Philips 5751
> 
> The 12AT7 link is: JAN-Philips 12AT7WC
> 
> That should get you going in the right direction. Marty



whoa. thanks! will check them out.
which of the two from this site correspond to the one you're mentioning? both? neither?


----------



## zimske

okay! choices revised!

for power amp it'll be tung-sols because i've read somewhere that it tames much too bright marshalls well. my is a bit too bright and needs to be tamed. so be it!

back to preamp!


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> okay! choices revised!
> 
> for power amp it'll be tung-sols because i've read somewhere that it tames much too bright marshalls well. my is a bit too bright and needs to be tamed. so be it!
> 
> back to preamp!



I buy tubes at Doug's as well. I'm sure you have already noted you can get those tubes there. 

V1- AT7
V2- Mullard Reissue


----------



## MartyStrat54

Doug's Tubes, The Tube Store and The Tube Depot all have great prices and excellent customer service.

I thought that you would notice the part about the EL34 that tames the mids on Marshall amps. Keen eye! And you said you were a noob.

Marty


----------



## zimske

hahahh, yeah...

in any case, i've decided to cut this preamp gordian knot thing to pieces. i'm gonna get me, now get this, BOTH some 12at7 and some 12ax7 for V1 and see what fits me best. i'ma gonna be a tube rolla. 

i'm waiting for the guys from dougs tubes to answer to my mail, and see what next.

in any case, guys, i'd like your opinions, on what to put in V1-3 for both low gain and normal gain option..

low gain combo would be something like JJ Ecc803 and those JAN Philips 12AT7 Blackplate in combination.

normal gain combo, well, f#%k, gotta go through this thread again


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> hahahh, yeah...
> 
> in any case, i've decided to cut this preamp gordian knot thing to pieces. i'm gonna get me, now get this, BOTH some 12at7 and some 12ax7 for V1 and see what fits me best. i'ma gonna be a tube rolla.
> 
> i'm waiting for the guys from dougs tubes to answer to my mail, and see what next.
> 
> in any case, guys, i'd like your opinions, on what to put in V1-3 for both low gain and normal gain option..
> 
> low gain combo would be something like JJ Ecc803 and those JAN Philips 12AT7 Blackplate in combination.
> 
> normal gain combo, well, f#%k, gotta go through this thread again



Low gain:
V1-At7
V2-Mullard RI
PI- AC5

Lower Gain:
V1- At7
V2- 5751
PI- Mullard RI

Normal Gain:
V1=Mullard RI
V2- AC5
PI- Mullard RI

Of course do what you want. These are only my suggestions with tubes I've used in my amps.


----------



## zimske

much appreciated solarburn, while you were typing the post, i've come up exactly the same like your second proposal for lower gain. (is that lower as in even lower than low or just lower than normal? ;D)

but i presume i'll go nuts pretty soon and order the entire pack of tungsols or mullards for the preamp and leave it at that. there's nothing wrong with normal gain marshall god dammit!


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> much appreciated solarburn, while you were typing the post, i've come up exactly the same like your second proposal for lower gain. (is that lower as in even lower than low or just lower than normal? ;D)
> 
> but i presume i'll go nuts pretty soon and order the entire pack of tungsols or mullards for the preamp and leave it at that. there's nothing wrong with normal gain marshall god dammit!



The second option meant lower than the first option. I'll give you one with Tung Sols and Mullards:

V1-Tung Sol
V2-Mullard RI
PI-LPS or Mullard RI


----------



## zimske

any particular reason soundwise for this choice?


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> any particular reason soundwise for this choice?



The Tung Sol is big, warm, and musical. The Mullard is smooth. I like the LPS in the PI position. The LPS is the only Sovtec I will use. Smooth and well balanced. The other Sovtec's are not for me and a step down for sure in my experience. Anyways don't you want to try and tame some topend in your amp. These preamp tubes may help over brightness.

A Mullard in the PI was solid as well. Like the LPS it didn't take away or seem to add to what V1 & V2 are giving the amp in any bad way that I can detect with my ears.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I have been wanting to add some different tubes to my stable for experimentation, so when dealing w/ The Tube Store on my faulty Yellow Jackets, they were agreeable to just exchanging them for tubes of my choosing. And since the YJ money has long since been spent and I don't miss it... And I'd likely be spending any refund on tubes and guitar stuff anyway... I figured let's go for it! Here's what I picked out:



joshuaaewallen said:


> ...
> - (Qty 2) Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83
> - (Qty 2) Tung-Sol 12AX7 Tung-Sol 12AX7
> - (Qty 2) Electro-Harmonix 12AX7-EH Electro-Harmonix 12AX7-EH
> - (Qty 1) Tung-Sol 12AX7 / ECC803-S Gold Tung-Sol 12AX7 / ECC803-S Gold
> 
> Far out, eh?...





joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty... I have played with it just a _wee bit_. However I got sidetracked by the Yellow Jacket debacle. So far all I can say is Holy Crap Batman! This thing is ready to blow the roof off my house! I am blown away by the gain on tap. Almost literally. You sure hit that one outta the ball park. ...
> 
> Don't worry there will be more later. I will issue a full report when I am not inebriated with drowsiness. Until then, take care and rest assured that you have one majorly satisfied customer, Plain and simple... You Rock!...



Hey Marty,

I finally got to spend a few hours noodling around (no... not diving for catfish... ) with that bottle rocket you sent me. 






I honestly have to say... I think I have mixed emotions about it. The gain is off the charts hot. That I like. But I am having trouble finding a good position for it. It seems like it's sooo hot that wherever I put it (I've tried V1, V2, and V3) my treble is too harsh. Know what I mean? At the amps quietest bedroom level, it helps the amp alot in terms of sounding lively, but when I creep the volume up... The high end takes my head off. When I use pinch harmonics, they sound screechy and shrill, not harmonic. It has a great bottom end that probably would apeal to the 7-string crowd. It think it'd probably be a great "Death Metal" tube. Does this make sense? Anyhoo mate, don't take this as a bad review because it's not. I just need to figure out how to implement this ICBM-2 w/out causing "Global Destruction". 

Along that line of thinking...

I tried something new. Sort of an _extreme_ version of Solar's "take-it-down a notch" type of tube selection, only I took it down about 15 notches... I kept the ICBM-2 (since you had the original ICBM I guess I'll call this one the ICBM-2) in V2, but I threw the 12AU7 that I got out that old TV set into V1. Interesting... Interesting... Interesting... It did a great job of neutering the gain. My clean channel was interesting. Very subdued. Not brittle, but _very, very clean_. The crunch channel ranged from "a second clean channel" to crunchy at best. And the Lead channel went from another clean channel to the verge of "heavy" crunch. Did I say interesting? Anyhoo... I like my gain so this wasn't a keeper lineup, but was fun.





Now, what was more fun was what I tried next. I had the ICBM-2 in V1, and the the 12BZ7 in V2 (you can only imagine how hot that combo is)... So... To try to tame it and create new eq possibilities, I threw the 12AU7 into V3. This was much more likable. Think Def Leppard's "High 'N Dry" album, and songs like "Saturday Night (High & Dry)" and "Let It Go". This set up was much more fun. But not enough overall gain on Lead for most of the stuff I play so still not a permanent keeper, but interesting and fun and a definite option if I want to nail certain sounds. But the eq'ing this tube allowed in V3 was helpful in taming the ICBM-2's shrillness. I was able to do respectable harmonics when playing "God's of War" off Def Leppard's Hysteria album. _The_ definite downside of the 12AU7, in this amp, is that it takes away the "fullness" of the sound that is inherent in the amp. So... Not a keeper, but fun. It may be useful in another amp, just not a high gain Marshall.

So... There's my two cents. What are your thoughts Oh, Mighty Oz?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The Tung Sol is big, warm, and musical. The Mullard is smooth. I like the LPS in the PI position. The LPS is the only Sovtec I will use. Smooth and well balanced. The other Sovtec's are not for me and a step down for sure in my experience. Anyways don't you want to try and tame some topend in your amp. These preamp tubes may help over brightness.
> 
> A Mullard in the PI was solid as well. Like the LPS it didn't take away or seem to add to what V1 & V2 are giving the amp in any bad way that I can detect with my ears.



Didn't get a LPS simply because I'm running a combo amp...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

steelhorse said:


> What exactly is harmonic content Josh?
> 
> Just kidding!...



That's like trying to describe the color green to a person who's been blind since birth!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Didn't get a LPS simply because I'm running a combo amp...




Good call. Glad you noticed that.


----------



## solarburn

Josh check this page out at the Tube store. This is a gain factor list of some direct replacement preamp tubes for a 12AX7. See how low the 12AU7 is. I think that is too much neutering. I prolly wouldn't go any lower than a AT7. I'm finding also that the 5751 was a tad hot even though it is a 70. 

These lower gain numbers don't always translate to significant gain changes. It depends on the position too. Still I would stay 60 and up but you know sometimes you just got to put the tube in to see how it performs in your amp like you did. This thread is about experimentation and letting each other know the results after all.

Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp


----------



## joshuaaewallen

It could be a long road... I've spent most of my years playing guitar chasing other peoples tones... Now that I'm rolling tubes... I'm gradually discovering _my_ tone.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Josh check this page out at the Tube store. This is a gain factor list of some direct replacement preamp tubes for a 12AX7. See how low the 12AU7 is. I think that is too much neutering. I prolly wouldn't go any lower than a AT7....
> 
> ... These lower gain numbers don't always translate to significant gain changes. It depends on the position too. Still I would stay 60 and up but you know sometimes you just got to put the tube in to see how it performs in your amp like you did. This thread is about experimentation and letting each other know the results after all.
> 
> Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp



Yup. The Tube Store is a great info resource. And yup... I'd have to agree that the 12AU7 was way too much neutering. It didn't just snip the berries, but took the whole twig too!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> It could be a long road... I've spent most of my years playing guitar chasing other peoples tones... Now that I'm rolling tubes... I'm gradually discovering _my_ tone.



And isn't fun?! I mean as long as you moderate or pace yourself.

I can honestly say my tone has improved with the info, suggestions and tubes given for demoing from this thread. I have made some fast friends here that I look forward to talking to about tone and how to get it. I enjoy helping where I can and hopefully I don't get too much of a sandy vagina when I'm discussing here.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yup. The Tube Store is a great info resource. And yup... I'd have to agree that the 12AU7 was way too much neutering. It didn't just snip the berries, but took the whole twig too!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Josh check this page out at the Tube store. This is a gain factor list of some direct replacement preamp tubes for a 12AX7. See how low the 12AU7 is. I think that is too much neutering. I prolly wouldn't go any lower than a AT7. I'm finding also that the 5751 was a tad hot even though it is a 70.
> 
> These lower gain numbers don't always translate to significant gain changes. It depends on the position too. Still I would stay 60 and up but you know sometimes you just got to put the tube in to see how it performs in your amp like you did. This thread is about experimentation and letting each other know the results after all.
> 
> Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp



I looked at this chart + the reviews + this thread when selecting my tubes. I was uber close to trying a 5751, but in the end elected to try the Tung Sol Gold pin instead...

The Mullards were a no brainer for me because even guys that are NOS worshipers tend to give them high marks.

Either way, I am exited to try them all out. Perhaps I may spring for that 5751 too. I want to try your method (granted the DSL50 and the TSL122 are two totally different beats) at some point because until I try it I'll never know what I might be missing. I really am that guy who wants to try _everything_!!!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I looked at this chart + the reviews + this thread when selecting my tubes. I was uber close to trying a 5751, but in the end elected to try the Tung Sol Gold pin instead...
> 
> The Mullards were a no brainer for me because even guys that are NOS worshipers tend to give them high marks.
> 
> Either way, I am exited to try them all out. Perhaps I may spring for that 5751 too. I want to try your method (granted the DSL50 and the TSL122 are two totally different beats) at some point because until I try it I'll never know what I might be missing. I really am that guy who wants to try _everything_!!!



I just sent Marty a 5751 I had no use for. I wish I would have known you were looking at them cause I would have given it to you. It was a Jan too. He let me try a NOS Tung Sol 5751 that was just as hot, to my ears, as a 12AX7. So it didn't pay off for me but the tube was an animal for a 5751. That's frigg'n cool in my book!

Try the AT7 in V1 and just move it from there and see what happens. I liked it best in V1 on the DSL50. Jerry(FJA)thought I was weird using it there because most will put the AT7 in the PI on high gainers. It worked well there too but it didn't do what I was after as it did in V1.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I just sent Marty a 5751 I had no use for. I wish I would have known you were looking at them cause I would have given it to you. It was a Jan too...



Eh. How could ya know? All I ever post about is high gain stuff. It's only recently that I tried mixing high gain and low gain tubes to find that there is some potential there too. With what I have, and what I have coming... I'll probably have my hands full for a while anyways... But the 5751 IS ON MY LIST to try!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I can honestly say my tone has improved with the info, suggestions and tubes given for demoing from this thread...



I agree totally. But the more I try and the more I learn... The more I find that the tone I've been chasing is not mine, and it's time to find my own sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy, we have some regular chatterboxes going on in here, don't we? I think the best thing to do is cut the ICBM2 in half. That would cut the gain in half and it would take a lot of the "top end" off.

Well, the situation is this. You have two, really hot and high gain tubes in V1 and V2. I stated a long time ago that I never knew anyone that used two BZ7's in their amps. The ICBM2 and the BZ7 are in reality two BZ7's, because the gain factor of the ICBM2 meets or exceeds that of the BZ7 "when placed in a resistive circuit." 

One of the solutions has been discussed here and that would be to keep one high gainer in V2 and use a 5751 or AT7 in V1. This will smooth out the overall gain, but you might not like the overall "window of tone" that a lower gain tube provides.

Another solution would be that you return the ICBM2 and I will send you one that is lower in gain, say a 27/27. That would allow a regular AX7 in V1 and then the 27/27 tube in V2. I wish there was a way I could bring over a box of 100 tubes and we could go through your divorce together and job loss while trying all the possibilities out...but that ain't gonna happen. I gave you some options and you went with the biggest boob job. As your doctor, I probably should have steered you into C cups instead of letting you option for the DD's. I have plenty of tubes, I could send you some to try out and then you could send the one's back that you don't want, but the postage would be your responsibility. (Hell, Joe is sending all my tubes back except for the 1967 Ruskie EL84's that he fell in love with. You know, the one's that looked like the tubes that came with your YJ's?)

In closing, sometimes there can be too much gain and on a Marshall amp, that usually results in high end shrill or harshness. There is a limit to what the circuits will take. High gain preamp tubes will overdrive the the rest of the amp, so that when you go to three, the power tubes are thinking 7. My advice is to go with a lower gain AX7. You are a high gain player. The songs and artists you play are high gain. I don't think you will find your sound with an AT7 or a 5751 in V1. Maybe a 5751, but I doubt it. You may end up having to dump the BZ7 as well. I think you would be happy with what I have in my 122 and that is a 7025 in V1 and a 27/27 to 30/30 AX7 in V2.

Let me know what you want to do. I can send you a 7025 and say 3, AX7's for you to work with. I could give you a couple of weeks to experiment. It would probably be a good idea to put some insurance on the package like I did with Joe. It's not that much and it gives a little peace of mind.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Boy, we have some regular chatterboxes going on in here, don't we? I think the best thing to do is cut the ICBM2 in half. That would cut the gain in half and it would take a lot of the "top end" off.
> 
> Well, the situation is this. You have two, really hot and high gain tubes in V1 and V2. I stated a long time ago that I never knew anyone that used two BZ7's in their amps. The ICBM2 and the BZ7 are in reality two BZ7's, because the gain factor of the ICBM2 meets or exceeds that of the BZ7 "when placed in a resistive circuit."
> 
> One of the solutions has been discussed here and that would be to keep one high gainer in V2 and use a 5751 or AT7 in V1. This will smooth out the overall gain, but you might not like the overall "window of tone" that a lower gain tube provides.
> 
> Another solution would be that you return the ICBM2 and I will send you one that is lower in gain, say a 27/27. That would allow a regular AX7 in V1 and then the 27/27 tube in V2. I wish there was a way I could bring over a box of 100 tubes and we could go through your divorce together and job loss while trying all the possibilities out...but that ain't gonna happen. I gave you some options and you went with the biggest boob job. As your doctor, I probably should have steered you into C cups instead of letting you option for the DD's. I have plenty of tubes, I could send you some to try out and then you could send the one's back that you don't want, but the postage would be your responsibility. (Hell, Joe is sending all my tubes back except for the 1967 Ruskie EL84's that he fell in love with. You know, the one's that looked like the tubes that came with your YJ's?)
> 
> In closing, sometimes there can be too much gain and on a Marshall amp, that usually results in high end shrill or harshness. There is a limit to what the circuits will take. High gain preamp tubes will overdrive the the rest of the amp, so that when you go to three, the power tubes are thinking 7. My advice is to go with a lower gain AX7. You are a high gain player. The songs and artists you play are high gain. I don't think you will find your sound with an AT7 or a 5751 in V1. Maybe a 5751, but I doubt it. You may end up having to dump the BZ7 as well. I think you would be happy with what I have in my 122 and that is a 7025 in V1 and a 27/27 to 30/30 AX7 in V2.
> 
> Let me know what you want to do. I can send you a 7025 and say 3, AX7's for you to work with. I could give you a couple of weeks to experiment. It would probably be a good idea to put some insurance on the package like I did with Joe. It's not that much and it gives a little peace of mind.
> 
> Marty



I loved your boob analogy...maybe too much but none the less it was funny.

Yeah you know on my Marshall I settled for a different line up than I had. Those NOS had some textures I like. What is nice is I have alternative line ups to go to when I want. There are a few go to combination's as far as the new production goes and I like certain tone characteristics but they are very similar cause after all I play and sound a certain way. I have an inherent Joe-ness to my playing that no tube changes.

Josh I've been playing long enough to stick with tones I like and think work for whatever I'm playing. Any gear changes = variables changing and sometimes redialing is needed to get there again. I still can learn new tricks though and guys like Marty help me dial in what I'm after. He's a seasoned guy and a wealth of info. Also I've never really used NOS so I am in new territory there. I'm having fun and expenses haven't gotten out of hand...yet. 

Your ideal tone is going to get there too. I want to know what combo you end up with. I find it very interesting and enjoy the dialing in process. Sometimes more than actually finding I'm there. Which is where I'm at with the NT. Well, the Marshall too. Now I'll get back to getting some tunes down. I've got 3 to do so now you will have to keep us entertained with the roll'n he he.

Of course I will be consulting with my Doctor as well in the mean time...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Boy, we have some regular chatterboxes going on in here, don't we? I think the best thing to do is cut the ICBM2 in half. That would cut the gain in half and it would take a lot of the "top end" off.



LOL! 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Well, the situation is this. You have two, really hot and high gain tubes in V1 and V2. I stated a long time ago that I never knew anyone that used two BZ7's in their amps. The ICBM2 and the BZ7 are in reality two BZ7's, because the gain factor of the ICBM2 meets or exceeds that of the BZ7 "when placed in a resistive circuit."



I understand why now. Although for short periods of time... For super *HEAVY* playing... The "dueling missiles" is a real "blast". 



MartyStrat54 said:


> One of the solutions has been discussed here and that would be to keep one high gainer in V2 and use a 5751 or AT7 in V1. This will smooth out the overall gain, but you might not like the overall "window of tone" that a lower gain tube provides.



At some point I know for sure that I will want to try out a 5751, but I think at this point I'll hold off on that.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I wish there was a way I could bring over a box of 100 tubes and we could go through your divorce together and job loss while trying all the possibilities out...but that ain't gonna happen. I gave you some options and you went with the biggest boob job. As your doctor, I probably should have steered you into C cups instead of letting you option for the DD's...



My wife thanks you for being half a country away.   ... And she's a real swell gal, so I figure I really should hang on to her! 

But seriously... I do, by way of personality, tend to start off like a rocket cranking everything to the max just to see what happens before I inevitably dial everything back to reasonable levels. It's a fault I have.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... My advice is to go with a lower gain AX7. You are a high gain player. The songs and artists you play are high gain. I don't think you will find your sound with an AT7 or a 5751 in V1. Maybe a 5751, but I doubt it. You may end up having to dump the BZ7 as well. I think you would be happy with what I have in my 122 and that is a 7025 in V1 and a 27/27 to 30/30 AX7 in V2.



This option seems more realistic. I think I'd like to go this route. If that does the trick I might only need to narrow down a tube for the tone-stack that suits my playing... 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Let me know what you want to do. I can send you a 7025 and say 3, AX7's for you to work with. I could give you a couple of weeks to experiment. It would probably be a good idea to put some insurance on the package like I did with Joe. It's not that much and it gives a little peace of mind.
> 
> Marty



That sounds like a plan. Lets do it. If I return the ICBM-2 Then I've got some credit with you... And we can just figure out how far that'll take me with the one/one's that I want to keep... Work for you mate?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yup. The Tube Store is a great info resource. And yup... I'd have to agree that the 12AU7 was way too much neutering. It didn't just snip the berries, but took the whole twig too!



... Plus it was just too fun to plug in a tube that I found in somebody's old garage-sale junk for about as much $$$ as you'd spend on a happy meal!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Plus it was just too fun to plug in a tube that I found in somebody's old garage-sale junk for about as much $$$ as you'd spend on a happy meal!



Oh that's right. I forgot where you got that. Kewl.

Now I'm hungry...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, just send the high gainer back and I will look through my vast selection of chocolates and select a few for you. I most certainly want to include a 7025 for you, because you have never used one of those in V1. Strong and quiet, that's what they are. They make the clean channel, well really clean. Now some of my 7025's are marked 12AX7A's, but they interchange just so you know. However, I will try and send you one that says 7025 on the tube.

I'll top it off with three AX7's that are a couple of notches below the super gain tube. (Hey! I wonder how that high gain tube would sound in Joe's NT? Probably blow the front end off of his amp!)

I should be able to get this in the mail by Friday. I'm busy on and off tomorrow and have an errand to run in KC. 

Well, I feel good that Joe is happy with his tone. I feel the same way about my 122. I think we are going to nail your sound down very soon. You can always use a new production tube in V3 and V4. (Remember the PI tube does not have to be balanced.) I've been going with a 22/24 in the PI and the same or higher for the tone stack. However V1 and V2 are still what I call high gain AX7's.

Talk to you later. Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, just send the high gainer back and I will look through my vast selection of chocolates and select a few for you. I most certainly want to include a 7025 for you, because you have never used one of those in V1. Strong and quiet, that's what they are. They make the clean channel, well really clean. Now some of my 7025's are marked 12AX7A's, but they interchange just so you know. However, I will try and send you one that says 7025 on the tube.
> 
> I'll top it off with three AX7's that are a couple of notches below the super gain tube. (Hey! I wonder how that high gain tube would sound in Joe's NT? Probably blow the front end off of his amp!)
> 
> I should be able to get this in the mail by Friday. I'm busy on and off tomorrow and have an errand to run in KC.
> 
> Well, I feel good that Joe is happy with his tone. I feel the same way about my 122. I think we are going to nail your sound down very soon. You can always use a new production tube in V3 and V4. (Remember the PI tube does not have to be balanced.) I've been going with a 22/24 in the PI and the same or higher for the tone stack. However V1 and V2 are still what I call high gain AX7's.
> 
> Talk to you later. Marty



My tone is feeling so good now and we are not blowing my NT up.

Maybe down the road...or tracks...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got four 7025's of varying gain and four 12AX7's of varying gain all packed and mailed off to Josh. I'm really hoping that he will be able to dial in his sound. The maximum gain available is 30/30 for V1 and 30/30 for V2, so that's a lot of gain. 

Maybe by late next week we will hear what the results are.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Suhweeeeeeeeet!!!!



Thanks Mate!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought I would post to keep this thread from going down the tank. I had some private conversations with Joe and it was interesting. Joe is thinking about buying and RFT 12AX7. These are "EAST" German tubes that are very well built. Right up there with a Telefunken (West Germany), Amperex (Holland), or Mullard (Great Britain). Right now they are running at about $40 a piece.

I put the xf4 Mullard 6CA7's (EL34's) in my amp about a week ago and I recheck the bias yesterday. I let the amp warm up about 30 minutes or so. The bias was still within range, but I tweaked it just a little. The Mullards improved the bottom end of the amp. They are very robust sounding. I swear that TSL60 gets as loud as my 122, but the 122 has the Man O' War speakers and they are loud and efficient...so it must be my imagination.

I bought four new 12AX7 tubes, NOS for $10 a piece. Can you believe that? Sorry to say I let a pair get away from me and they only went for $31. They were a pair of Hammond by Amperex (Holland) 12AX7's. I'm sort of bummed for spacing that out.

Those Amperex tubes are pretty sweet in V2 and V3. 

Well, I've been dicking around with all of my amps this weekend. Even my old Randall's and Peavey's. I forgot what a beast the Peavey MACE is. Six 6L6 power tubes. Solid state pre, but it nails a lot of the 70's and 80's tones.

I think I need to sell some of this stuff. How many amps do you really need? My TSL60 can handle any gig and it is a good practice amp and then I could get a Night Train. So I guess the answer is two.

More preamp tube related info to follow very soon.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

Here is a quick dollar saver for those who are looking into trying an AT7. There are many who think the Mullard CV4024 is one of the best AT7's you can get. They are a $30 AT7. I've been rolling tubes in the Night Train for awhile now and it shows different characteristics well. You can here and feel differences in them if there is any. To my ears anyways...

I put in a Jan AT7 which is only $12. I have gone back and forth with the CV4024 and I can't really pick up any differences one way or the other. I've used single coils and humbuckers.

I'd say as a result of my testing save yourself some money and get the Jan AT7. Both sound great to me though paired with an 12AX7 in the NT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought I would post to keep this thread from going down the tank. I had some private conversations with Joe and it was interesting. Joe is thinking about buying and RFT 12AX7. These are "EAST" German tubes that are very well built. Right up there with a Telefunken (West Germany), Amperex (Holland), or Mullard (Great Britain). Right now they are running at about $40 a piece.
> 
> I put the xf4 Mullard 6CA7's (EL34's) in my amp about a week ago and I recheck the bias yesterday. I let the amp warm up about 30 minutes or so. The bias was still within range, but I tweaked it just a little. The Mullards improved the bottom end of the amp. They are very robust sounding. I swear that TSL60 gets as loud as my 122, but the 122 has the Man O' War speakers and they are loud and efficient...so it must be my imagination.
> 
> I bought four new 12AX7 tubes, NOS for $10 a piece. Can you believe that? Sorry to say I let a pair get away from me and they only went for $31. They were a pair of Hammond by Amperex (Holland) 12AX7's. I'm sort of bummed for spacing that out.
> 
> Those Amperex tubes are pretty sweet in V2 and V3.
> 
> Well, I've been dicking around with all of my amps this weekend. Even my old Randall's and Peavey's. I forgot what a beast the Peavey MACE is. Six 6L6 power tubes. Solid state pre, but it nails a lot of the 70's and 80's tones.
> 
> I think I need to sell some of this stuff. How many amps do you really need? My TSL60 can handle any gig and it is a good practice amp and then I could get a Night Train. So I guess the answer is two.
> 
> More preamp tube related info to follow very soon.
> 
> Marty



Marty is watching out for a $40 version for me. So far, outside of Evilbay, I have only been able to find an RFT 12AX7 for $60 delivered. Other web stores have them listed for $40 but have none in stock. So for now the tube is just on the list to try until I either get a better price or I get jones'n for a $60 preamp tube.

I do have to say again though the tubes I have in the Marshall really do sound great. The RFT will just be an experiment. The DSL doesn't need it.



PS- Night Trains a call'n Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm runnin' a new thread called, "How many amps do you need?" I think I am going to sell off all of my non-Marshall amps and get me a nice low watt boutique amp, say 10 to twenty watts. Man, there are a lot of nice ones out there. Hell, I'm still waiting to try out a Rebel. It has the choice of 6V6 or EL84 tubes, or a blend of the two and adjustable power from 1 to 20 watts. That's pretty cool. However, they don't seem to be selling very well and I wonder why? There's two people selling them on EBAY for the same price as Musician's Friend and they are giving the shipping for free. No one has bought any of these amps. This is at $595. What does a Night Train go for?

I can't wait for Josh to get the tubes so he can start to dial the ole 122 in. He went from having a few tubes to having a shitload. He's got a lot of new production tubes and some of them don't sound bad, but the NOS tubes handle higher plate voltage and I think they have much better definition when it comes to articulation and tone.

Hurry up, we're waiting on you Josh!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm runnin' a new thread called, "How many amps do you need?" I think I am going to sell off all of my non-Marshall amps and get me a nice low watt boutique amp, say 10 to twenty watts. Man, there are a lot of nice ones out there. Hell, I'm still waiting to try out a Rebel. It has the choice of 6V6 or EL84 tubes, or a blend of the two and adjustable power from 1 to 20 watts. That's pretty cool. However, they don't seem to be selling very well and I wonder why? There's two people selling them on EBAY for the same price as Musician's Friend and they are giving the shipping for free. No one has bought any of these amps. This is at $595. What does a Night Train go for?
> 
> I can't wait for Josh to get the tubes so he can start to dial the ole 122 in. He went from having a few tubes to having a shitload. He's got a lot of new production tubes and some of them don't sound bad, but the NOS tubes handle higher plate voltage and I think they have much better definition when it comes to articulation and tone.
> 
> Hurry up, we're waiting on you Josh!



I know, I know. Come on Josh...he he. I've heard good clips of the Rebel. The reviews on it are really mixed though. Too much talk of it sounding thin. I had thought about getting one too. I don't know. From the clips I heard it sounded decent enough. It definitely offers more than others.

The Night Train is $500 shipped from online stores. Shameless plug for proguitars.com where I got mine. Check out the RM20 by Randall and the Laney LC15R 1X10(has speaker outs). Little more expensive but have a good following and good clips too.

Buy Randall MTS Series RM20 15W Guitar Amp Head without Modules | Tube Amp Heads | Musician's Friend

Buy Laney LC15R 15W 1x10 Tube Guitar Combo Amp | Tube Combo Amps | Musician's Friend


----------



## solarburn

I forgot to mention on another side note that I emailed Jerry at FJA about making the NT's voicings foot switchable. Right now its toggle operated. I should hear from him in a couple of days. Its a new amp so I don't know if he will have anything figured out yet other than his working knowledge of how to do it.

Ok, I'll get back to tubes now...anybody send me an RFT 12AX7 yet?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good grief! The Randall is $1000! You have to buy the standard preamp tube module and that bumps it up to a grand. Sorry, no way.

If I get me a small all tube amp, it will have to be cathode biased so I can put different power tubes in it, plug and play all the way.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good grief! The Randall is $1000! You have to buy the standard preamp tube module and that bumps it up to a grand. Sorry, no way.
> 
> If I get me a small all tube amp, it will have to be cathode biased so I can put different power tubes in it, plug and play all the way.
> 
> Marty



Oh yah...there is that. Its for the guys with plenty o money that want all the tone shaping one can get. 

Ouch! Too many clams.

I'll keep plug & play(cathode biased)in mind too when I'm looking.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Holy Hannah!!! I am up to my ears in tubes!!!  Marty, I just received the shipment of tubes, and am really psyched to run through them. My plan is to spend some quality time this weekend (hopefully sooner ) and really get a feel for what's what with all of these tubes. And boy-oh-boy... What a list!

1.RCA 7025, Test @ 23/23
2.LTT/RCA 7025, Test @ 24-26 (same gain as a 25/25)
3.GE 7025, Test @ 28/25
4.LTT/RCA 7025 @ 30/30
5.Westinghouse 12AX7, Test @ 26/27
6.Sylvania 12AX7, Test @ 28/28
7.RCA 12AX7, Test 29/29
8.Amperex 12AX7, Test @ 30/30

Marty, Marty, Marty... You are THE MAN! Now I'm really chompin' at the bit. I wish I had some vacation time to burn up. I'd become a hermit for a few days and have some serious fun with these. I'm sure that the TSL is gonna sound divine!

What's more... I got an email from The Tube Store today confirming they have received my faulty Yellow Jackets, so I should be seeing my new production tube order coming soon as well! Holy cow! I'll be swimming in tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm glad that you posted over here. I found out over at the YJ thread and left a response there.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Copy of post from Yellow Jackets thread:

Oh? We're over here now are we? Well I'm glad you got the goods, but I'm afraid that it will take more than this weekend to perform the proper type of testing. Pay close attention to that Amperex. That is one sweet, high gain tube. Made in Holland by people who wear wooden shoes. That is like the Holy Grail of 12AX7's. Not trying to plug it, let your ears do the selecting. The 7025 selection is really sweet and the LTT/RCA's are NIB-NOS...very nice.

Have you decided on whether you want to go with NOS tubes for V3 and V4? Or are you going to use some of the new stuff you get? That is getting to be a lot of tubes to be messing with. I'm afraid you can get frustrated and this is something I brought up before. It's what caused me to put tubes in some of my amps based on brand and gain rating and not by "sound" selection. We all know that I ended up with a different line up in my 122 after doing a sound check. However, I am happy with what I have right now in my amps and it took a lot of time. Like I said, I got the formula down (for me) and that is a 7025 in V1 and a sweet gainer in V2.

My formula may not be to your liking and that's okay. I just hope that you are able to find a solid clean, but also good crunch as well.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh? We're over here now are we? Well I'm glad you got the goods, but I'm afraid that it will take more than this weekend to perform the proper type of testing. Pay close attention to that Amperex. That is one sweet, high gain tube. Made in Holland by people who wear wooden shoes. That is like the Holy Grail of 12AX7's. Not trying to plug it, let your ears do the selecting. The 7025 selection is really sweet and the LTT/RCA's are NIB-NOS...very nice.
> 
> Have you decided on whether you want to go with NOS tubes for V3 and V4? Or are you going to use some of the new stuff you get? That is getting to be a lot of tubes to be messing with. I'm afraid you can get frustrated and this is something I brought up before. It's what caused me to put tubes in some of my amps based on brand and gain rating and not by "sound" selection. We all know that I ended up with a different line up in my 122 after doing a sound check. However, I am happy with what I have right now in my amps and it took a lot of time. Like I said, I got the formula down (for me) and that is a 7025 in V1 and a sweet gainer in V2.
> 
> My formula may not be to your liking and that's okay. I just hope that you are able to find a solid clean, but also good crunch as well.
> 
> Marty


 "Over here..." Oops, my bad. I posted on the wrong thread.

These threads, while different, are sort of joined at the hip in some respects, aren't they?

Thanks again for sending the tubes Marty. I really appreciate it more than you know. I'd _never_ get a shot at test driving most of these w/out a pal like you.

I'll try not to doddle too much, but you and Solar are probably right. To really feel these baby's out may take a while...


----------



## solarburn

I got that post before over here. So I figured I'd leave it like it was since I didn't really say much.

I will say this though. What a Buffet of tubes! Don't forget to eat, ..it, shower and shave while you roll'n all those. Remember to say hi to the wife once in awhile too.

Side note: Marty tested that 5751 I sent him and he found it to be bad after all. I was so under whelmed with that tube. Didn't have any dynamics. Now we know why.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good thing about 5751's is that there is a glut of them and the prices are low. To be honest, I didn't realize how cheap they were selling for. I'm glad that I wasn't buying any on EBAY. I may buy me four or five to have around. Same with the 12AT7's.

I still can't get over that 12AX7 push-pull guitar amp. That is just too wild! I mean if you were to hook that up to a pair of Man O' War speakers, that would be 105db with one watt! Two watts would be 108 and 4 watts would be 111 and that would top it out maybe at 112 pushing all five watts. That's loud my friend...real frigging loud. I would love to try that little fugger out. I would love to see how it would respond to different AX7's. I mean it's one pre and one AX7. It don't get any simpler than that.

Well, I think you're right about Josh having a full platter. It may take him a while to digest all that he has received.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here for your enjoyment is the "TechTube" site. This is the remains of the former Blackburn Mullard factory and what they are doing today. They cannot use the Mullard name anymore (owned by New Sensor).

The nice thing about it is knowing that there is yet one more source for a "real" tube. I do not know who distributes them here in the US. If you find out, let me know. They are currently making 12AX7's, 12AU7's and 12AT7's. All premium high quality for audiophile use (my Marshall qualifies as an audiophile amp).

Oh yeah...the video of how they made tubes is on this site as well.

TechTube Valves - Blackburn MicroTech Solutions

Marty


----------



## steelhorse

ok that's cool but how would I go about purchasing a few tubes to try?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey guys! How ya been? Just a madhouse around here. I haven't had jack squat time even to turn my amp on since my last post.  I'm starting to get cranky...  Sadly I will have little to no opportunity to run through any tube experimentation for probably another entire week. We have guests this weekend... /... And I am expected to be sociable. Then back to work on Monday and will probably wind up spending an couple of hours each night after work moving boxes in and out of my mother's storage locker (the house she's rented for the past 10 or so years is being foreclosed). Grand times, eh? But as much as I love me mum... I am glad she isn't moving in here! Then next weekend we have two weddings and various other social engagements to attend to. That being said, if I value a happy family life, playing around with my amp will have to take a back seat to these other things for a wee bit.

Anyhoo... I just wanted to say that I have been reading your posts, and they are keepin' me alive as I live out my Marshall tube driven fantasies in my mind.  I will as soon as is safely possible start my adventure of rolling tubes. As always, you guys are the best, and keep up the great posts. 

Soooo... Until next time... See ya!!!


----------



## solarburn

steelhorse said:


> ok that's cool but how would I go about purchasing a few tubes to try?



Count me in too. We need to find out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

steelhorse said:


> ok that's cool but how would I go about purchasing a few tubes to try?



I'll try and locate a US retailer and I will post the info and send you a PM.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

Hey Josh. Thanks for the update. Yeah life will do that to you huh...No worries man. We will just wait and in the mean time fondle our beloved tubes.

Have good times with the family man!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll try and locate a US retailer and I will post the info and send you a PM.
> 
> Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Josh, sometimes you just got to take care of the biz. Your mum is probably glad that she isn't moving in with you. I'm not in a hurry, I don't have a meter running. Take your time, it will happen.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Manufacturer Area of expertise
Shuguang Electron Group Co. Primarily audio tubes, also some rare transmitting models (211, 805, 807, 813, 845 and 6146B). Tubes marketed by Shuguang, Valve Art, TAD, Ruby Tubes and Taylor Tubes brand names.
Tianjin Quanerzhen Electron Tube Technology Co. Very small manufacturer of high-end audio tubes.

Products marketed by Full Music and Sophia Electric brands.
Nanjing Sanle Electronics Co. Transmitting and industrial tubes.

Some models (3-500ZG & 4-400C) marketed by Taylor Tubes brand.
JiangXi Jingguang Electronics Co. Ceramic transmitting tubes, some of them marketed by Penta Laboratories.
Huaguang Electric Power & Electronics Co. Transmitting and industrial tubes, also Chinese made 833C.

Russia
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Ekspopul - New Sensor Inc. Audio tube factory of New Sensor Inc.; Tubes are marketed as Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, Tung-Sol, Mullard, Genalex Gold Lion and also Svetlana S-marked in USA.

Known formerly as tube factory of JSC Reflektor.
LLC "Ryazan" Vacuum Components Russian made SV811 and SV572 series tubes for audio applications and transmitting tubes like 811A, 572B and GU-81, marketed in western countries by Svetlana, Sovtek and Ryazan brands
ZAO "SED-SPb" Svetlana Electron Devices, St.Petersburg - JSC Svetlana "Winged-C" transmitting and audio tubes
M.V.S.Z. AO Svetlana Parent company of JSC Svetlana.

Manufacturer of "Winged-C" 300B and EL509 tubes. (Production can not be confirmed)
JSC "Voskhod" KRLZ Tubes for small signal RF and audio applications
HC JSC NEVZ-Soyuz Ceramic transmitting and microwave tubes, known as Novosibirsk Electro-Vacuum Plant - Soyuz

United States
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Western Electric Inc. 300B triodes
Communications & Power Industries Inc. Eimac and rebuilt Econco high power transmitting tubes
Burle Industries Inc. Industrial and transmitting tubes, formerly factory of RCA
MPD Components Inc. Planar triodes and magnetrons, formerly Ken-Rad and later GE tube factory
LND Inc. Geiger-Mueller tubes

United Kingdom
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Blackburn MicroTech Solutions Ltd. Small signal tubes, formerly part of Philips-Mullard Blackburn operations.
e2v Technologies Ltd. Transmitting tubes, formerly known as English Electric Valve Co. Ltd.
Centronic Ltd. Geiger-Mueller tubes, formerly Philips GM-tubes
TMD Technologies Ltd. Magnetrons, Klystrons, Travelling Wave Tubes, Transmitters formerly THORN Microwave Devices Ltd.}

Germany
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Vacutec GmbH. Geiger-Mueller tubes

France
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Covimag Transmitting tubes. Products marketed by Richardson Electronics with Amperex brand name.

Formerly Philips transmitting tube factory.
Thales Electron Devices High power transmitting tubes. Formerly known as Thomson-CSF.

Czech Republic
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Emission Labs High-end audio tubes
KR Audio Electronics s.r.o. High-end audio tubes
Tesla Electrontubes s.r.o. Transmitting tubes

Slovakia
Manufacturer Area of expertise
JJ-Electronic Primarily for audio applications, factory was formerly part of Tesla Electrontubes
Euro Audio Team Very small manufacturer of high-end audio tubes, products marketed by EAT brand

Poland
Manufacturer Area of expertise
Thales Lamina Przyrzady Elektronowe Sp.Z.o.o Microwave tubes for radiolocation equipment, microwave tubes for industrial applications

Serbia
Manufacturer Area of expertise
EI Niš Amplifier and Radio Tubes

(Tube production ceased 2006)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... TechTube Valves - Blackburn MicroTech Solutions...



Thanks for the heads up on a great link Marty.

I sent an email to them to see if they will tell me who they retail their tubes through. I'll let ya know _if_ & when I hear back from them.


----------



## firego

I would like to thank you Guys for solving my pwercel 100W problem a NOS Mullard
ECC82(12au7) in the V1 position, sounds great! Thanks agian Firegoblin.


----------



## MartyStrat54

firego said:


> I would like to thank you Guys for solving my pwercel 100W problem a NOS Mullard
> ECC82(12au7) in the V1 position, sounds great! Thanks agian Firegoblin.



We meet again. Glad you got it solved. I'm glad it was something as easy as a tube.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks for the heads up on a great link Marty.
> 
> I sent an email to them to see if they will tell me who they retail their tubes through. I'll let ya know _if_ & when I hear back from them.



I did the same thing myself. I did some more research and it may all be for naught. Apparently, they have only made some small batches and the poor economic times might prevent them for doing a major tube run.

I also found out that the tubes were really expensive and that the company has yet to release any test data on their tubes (all of the audiophiles are screaming for it).

But then on the flip side, I read were they were going to start making EL34's and EL84's. That would be great as long as they aren't $150 per pair. If this all comes about, it will have a great effect on the price of NOS tubes on EBAY. It will cause a price ceiling and that would be good for me. I paid $99 plus shipping for my EL34 Mullards. They both tested 100. I think the price will go down if Blackburn (Mullard) starts a major production of tubes. This should cause their prices to go down as well. If a guy can get a new UK 12AX7 for $30, then that's not too bad. The bottom line is that these are high quality tubes, not some Chinese piece of crap.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have yet to hear from Blackburn about their tubes. Not a good sign if you know what I mean.

There have been several threads were people were asking about preamp tube advice. I sent them here and received really good feedback.

Tick...tick...tick...

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I have yet to hear from Blackburn about their tubes. Not a good sign if you know what I mean.
> 
> There have been several threads were people were asking about preamp tube advice. I sent them here and received really good feedback.
> 
> Tick...tick...tick...
> 
> Marty



That's a bummer. I still haven't heard back from them either. I know that there are lots of us who would love to buy a quality European or American made tube.



tim warner said:


> ... I know this is a stupid question but did you get the right adapters for your model amp?....



Yeah... I wish it was that simple. But alas... I did verify the model of YJ before making my purchase with both The Tube Store and with THD via email. No doubt about it, these are _supposed _ to work with my amp.



tim warner said:


> ... I also bought mine without tubes and put a brand new set of jj's in. Maybe you could use the refund money for tone bones, we could use a review of those and if the same thing happens then maybe you have a wiring issue with you amp that could be easily taken care of?



I put new power tubes in and biased. And have been rolling various different tubes to experiment with tone for a while now. For me, unfortunately, the YJ's just didn't last.

I thought about trying the tone bones, but in the end... Since I already had store credit w/ The tube store, elected to just get more tubes so I have a variety to work with.



joshuaaewallen said:


> ...



These tubes arrived a few days ago. And combined with the tubes Marty sent me to try out...

Holy Hannah there are a LOT of tubes here to try out now! My missus better keep me on a short leash or I'll likely disappear for a solid month as I try to run through these!


----------



## jrm

Hey guys, I've been reading this thread and I love it. I also picked up a dsl 50 last fall (from a member here) I really like the amp, it was loaded with jj's. I did notice it being very harsh and bright. I don't want to downgrade the jj's the amp was very quiet and clean and very responsive. I can see where some people would love it but wasn't for me. 

I had picked up some older preamp tubes 3 ge 12ax7 and 1 rca 12at7 put those in and it really warmed it up. I still have jj e34l in the amp but I'm planning to try some different combos of newer tubes in the future to see what I like. Thumbs up on the tests, i love reading this stuff.


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> Hey guys, I've been reading this thread and I love it. I also picked up a dsl 50 last fall (from a member here) I really like the amp, it was loaded with jj's. I did notice it being very harsh and bright. I don't want to downgrade the jj's the amp was very quiet and clean and very responsive. I can see where some people would love it but wasn't for me.
> 
> I had picked up some older preamp tubes 3 ge 12ax7 and 1 rca 12at7 put those in and it really warmed it up. I still have jj e34l in the amp but I'm planning to try some different combos of newer tubes in the future to see what I like. Thumbs up on the tests, i love reading this stuff.



You just pull up a chair and join the best tube thread go'n!


----------



## jrm

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You just pull up a chair and join the best tube thread go'n!



Just curious, your ID says your dsl is modded. What did you have done? Big difference? Just wondering if the mods affect your tube choices different then a stock.


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> Just curious, your ID says your dsl is modded. What did you have done? Big difference? Just wondering if the mods affect your tube choices different then a stock.



I had a circuit mod, MM OT upgrade and a choke added. Really I just roll what tubes I think I want to try based on info and others experience. So directly comparing your stock one to mine I really can't tell you how much of a difference there is anymore. I would roll tubes before any modding first though and see if I could find some tone stack I really like.

The tubes we are talking about here as far as NOS and some new production you just have to try sometimes cause tone is a personal thing. I would say the right tubes will make a stock amp or a modded amp sound better.

The ones I would recommend I believe would get you some nice tones. Others share the same view based on their experience with tubes in their amps. We all aren't going to love the same tubes. You're going to be the judge of your amps tone. Have fun roll'n and pace yourself. If you want any suggestions I will offer them. Just ask.


----------



## jrm

Tone wise I like classic rock and metal (schenker, lifeson, rhoads) I like a nice warm tone. My dsl is stock (drake transformers) I did snip the bright cap on the lead channel and really only use the lead channel for a punchy clean tone. I use the green channel more with a od pedal in front. I'm happy with the stock tone just thinking the right tubes would get me to a better tone.

What tubes do you recommend, I have the 3 ge 12 ax7 and 1 12at7 plus i have some mesa branded 12 ax7 here. What about power tubes?

I usually play a gibson les paul or prs throught it plugged into some old peavey vht cabs with celestions if that helps any.


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> Tone wise I like classic rock and metal (schenker, lifeson, rhoads) I like a nice warm tone. My dsl is stock (drake transformers) I did snip the bright cap on the lead channel and really only use the lead channel for a punchy clean tone. I use the green channel more with a od pedal in front. I'm happy with the stock tone just thinking the right tubes would get me to a better tone.
> 
> What tubes do you recommend, I have the 3 ge 12 ax7 and 1 12at7 plus i have some mesa branded 12 ax7 here. What about power tubes?
> 
> I usually play a gibson les paul or prs throught it plugged into some old peavey vht cabs with celestions if that helps any.



First tell me what brand AT7 you have. If you want to use a AT7 I'd prolly put it in the PI slot. Were the GE's tested or do you know if new or used? I'd prolly put 1 GE in the V3 spot. V1 & V2 will figure out next. The celestions speakers, are they V30, GT-75's, Greenbacks, G12H30's, K100's or do you know? This will help but its not a deciding factor on what tubes.

Usually new production are about $15 on average. I know it varies a few dollars here and there. The NOS I will recommend may be $20 to $40. So if I recommend a $40 one it will be for only one tube cause I'm gonna mix it up a little for that tone stack. Let me know if you would spend that much for one NOS tube. Get back to me and will pick tubes together.

By the way we like some of the same guitar tones regarding Schenker and Lifeson.


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> Tone wise I like classic rock and metal (schenker, lifeson, rhoads) I like a nice warm tone. My dsl is stock (drake transformers) I did snip the bright cap on the lead channel and really only use the lead channel for a punchy clean tone. I use the green channel more with a od pedal in front. I'm happy with the stock tone just thinking the right tubes would get me to a better tone.
> 
> What tubes do you recommend, I have the 3 ge 12 ax7 and 1 12at7 plus i have some mesa branded 12 ax7 here. What about power tubes?
> 
> I usually play a gibson les paul or prs throught it plugged into some old peavey vht cabs with celestions if that helps any.



I missed the power tubes question. I would recommend Tung Sol EL34B's, Sed Winged C or Ruby El34-BSTR's.


----------



## RiverRatt

OK, I finally scored a couple of 12BZ7's from the Tube Depot. I got two RCA gray plates yesterday. These were not what I was expecting at all. I put one in V2 on my DSL50 and I'm really pleased with the tone. I was expecting something over-the-top, but these things SING. It really doesn't seem to have much effect until you crank up the gain. Nice, creamy sustain from the neck pickup of my LP, and more agressive on the bridge pickup with nice pinch harmonics. It seems to respond well to pick attack, too. Thanks for the tip - these are definitely a keeper.

I ended up with this setup: V1=RCA side-getter ECC83, V2=RCA gray plate 12BZ7, V3=Raytheon black plate 12AT7 (I don't have any way to measure the gain on this tube, but I can't hear much difference between it and a 12AX7 - it has VERY short plates), and a new Tung-Sol 12AX7 in V4. 

On a side note, I noticed on one of the 12BZ7's and on one of my RCA clear tops that I pulled for the BZ7 that the spacers are askew. Will this affect the tube's performance?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> OK, I finally scored a couple of 12BZ7's from the Tube Depot. I got two RCA gray plates yesterday. These were not what I was expecting at all. I put one in V2 on my DSL50 and I'm really pleased with the tone. I was expecting something over-the-top, but these things SING. It really doesn't seem to have much effect until you crank up the gain. Nice, creamy sustain from the neck pickup of my LP, and more agressive on the bridge pickup with nice pinch harmonics. It seems to respond well to pick attack, too. Thanks for the tip - these are definitely a keeper.
> 
> I ended up with this setup: V1=RCA side-getter ECC83, V2=RCA gray plate 12BZ7, V3=Raytheon black plate 12AT7 (I don't have any way to measure the gain on this tube, but I can't hear much difference between it and a 12AX7 - it has VERY short plates), and a new Tung-Sol 12AX7 in V4.
> 
> On a side note, I noticed on one of the 12BZ7's and on one of my RCA clear tops that I pulled for the BZ7 that the spacers are askew. Will this affect the tube's performance?



When you say spacers are you talking about the rubber grommets around the tube hole on the amp?

Also I'm interested in why you put an AT7 in V3 instead of the PI? No rules here just curious...


----------



## solarburn

Ok guys, I gots to go to the gym and then hit the sack. So for those I was helping I will be back.

I'm sure others will be help'n out! You know who you are...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> When you say spacers are you talking about the rubber grommets around the tube hole on the amp?
> 
> Also I'm interested in why you put an AT7 in V3 instead of the PI? No rules here just curious...



The mica spacers inside the tube. Both the top and bottom one are slanted about 5 to 10 degrees. I hate the rubber grommets - they are annoying when you are swapping a bunch of tubes and you have to fish them out every time. And, the new Tung-Sols are so big that they barely fit with the grommet in place.

Why the 12AT7? I was swapping tubes all evening. I used to have the AT7 in the PI spot, actually. It happened to be one of the better choices in V3 - like I said, it doesn't sound much like a 12AT7. There may have been a very slight drop in volume, but it's a great sounding tube so I left it there. I'm not through tinkering yet - it may or may not stay in V3.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The mica spacers inside the tube. Both the top and bottom one are slanted about 5 to 10 degrees. I hate the rubber grommets - they are annoying when you are swapping a bunch of tubes and you have to fish them out every time. And, the new Tung-Sols are so big that they barely fit with the grommet in place.
> 
> Why the 12AT7? I was swapping tubes all evening. I used to have the AT7 in the PI spot, actually. It happened to be one of the better choices in V3 - like I said, it doesn't sound much like a 12AT7. There may have been a very slight drop in volume, but it's a great sounding tube so I left it there. I'm not through tinkering yet - it may or may not stay in V3.



Ok, I gotcha now. I just couldn't think of what the spacers were. I've been up a LONG time too so I'm a bit delirious. I work graveyard and am on my days off. Yesterday I made the mistake of sleeping late in the day and staying up all night.

Yeah I was just wondering what you noticed. I've used an AT7 in V1 and thought the gain didn't really get neutered there either. Thought it sounded good in the tone stack that way. 

I know for me I try the tubes out and see what actually happens. Never know when ya might talk yourself out of a winning combination otherwise. Also you find out some of these guys here know what they're talking about.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - American Know How & Little Wooden Shoes...*



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I can't wait for Josh to get the tubes so he can start to dial the ole 122 in. He went from having a few tubes to having a shitload. He's got a lot of new production tubes and some of them don't sound bad, but the NOS tubes handle higher plate voltage and I think they have much better definition when it comes to articulation and tone.
> 
> Hurry up, we're waiting on you Josh!



Okay, okay... Enough already! 

Well... I have had a few hours of play time the other day to try out two of my good buddy Marty's goodies. Leaving V3 & V4 filled with the JJ's I have (V3 a JJ Goldpin), I have started the ball rolling with the following:

V1: An RCA 7025 tested at 24-26 (by Marty)





and in V2...

Speaking of "Little Wooden Shoes"... Here is a Dutch treat (2AX7) that Marty tested at 30/30 and was gracious enough to send to me for testing in my TSL122. Made in Holland by fair skinned blond folks wearing wooden shoes... 





Uh... Yeah. This is a VERY nice combo for the V1 & V2 slots. 

The clean channel is absolutely phenomenal. Crisp. Clean. Warm. Sparkly. Just a real treat to play. 

The Crunch channel has AC/DC written all over it. Lotsa great 70's era classic rock "crunch" kinda tones. Not too bright, but plenty of definition even with my stale strings. With the gain maxed and eq'd just so... Think "All Right Now" by Free.

Lead. Yeah. Lead, follow, or get out of the way! Plenty of gain on tap. Not quite as creamy as some tube combos I've tried, but very expressive. The articulation is nice as well, but is a bit lacking due to a slightly fizzy aspect to the distortion. Don't get me wrong, this is not a bad thing on this amp. It's really great for sounding like live versions of lots of heavier classic rock acts.

Yeah. I'm likin' this.  

But... As previously indicated, I have only started down the path... There's a lot left to try, so stay tuned! And thanks again Marty!



RiverRatt said:


> OK, I finally scored a couple of 12BZ7's from the Tube Depot. I got two RCA gray plates yesterday. These were not what I was expecting at all. I put one in V2 on my DSL50 and I'm really pleased with the tone. I was expecting something over-the-top, *but these things SING.* It really doesn't seem to have much effect until you crank up the gain. Nice, creamy sustain from the neck pickup of my LP, and more agressive on the bridge pickup with nice pinch harmonics. It seems to respond well to pick attack, too. Thanks for the tip - these are definitely a keeper.



I knew you'd like the 12BZ7. They are awesome. I just wish they could survive a combo amp a little better.



RiverRatt said:


> On a side note, I noticed on one of the 12BZ7's and on one of my RCA clear tops that I pulled for the BZ7 that the spacers are askew. Will this affect the tube's performance?



Uh... I really have no idea. Where's my Jedi master Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The mica spacers inside the tube. Both the top and bottom one are slanted about 5 to 10 degrees. I hate the rubber grommets - they are annoying when you are swapping a bunch of tubes and you have to fish them out every time. And, the new Tung-Sols are so big that they barely fit with the grommet in place.
> 
> Why the 12AT7? I was swapping tubes all evening. I used to have the AT7 in the PI spot, actually. It happened to be one of the better choices in V3 - like I said, it doesn't sound much like a 12AT7. There may have been a very slight drop in volume, but it's a great sounding tube so I left it there. I'm not through tinkering yet - it may or may not stay in V3.



One of the strongest 12AX7's that I own has the top mica spacer literally crushed to the connecting components and it works 100 per cent. I have several tube that have the top and bottom mica spacers slanted just as you describe. They all test and perform as they should. 

So as long as the tube is working in the circuit, it should be fine. I've only come across a very few 12AX7's that worked on triode A, but not on triode B (or vice versa). This was due to poor quality control at a time when huge numbers of these tubes were being made. Like meat, they only would test small samples and if they passed they would ship the entire production run.

Let us know if the 12BZ7 lasts in you amp. Are you going to try one in your little amp?

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome to the thread jrm. Someone here will always answer your tube (and non tube) related questions.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a nice looking handful of glass Josh! What are the black boxes? I'm not familiar with those.

How's your quest for TVs and stuff going? I also found a Sylvania 6BQ5 in an old TV recently. My latest find was a 1960's GE phonograph in STEREO!. It had one amp and pair of speakers built into the phonograph case, AND it had an extension cabinet that was roughly guitar amp head sized which also had an amp and two speakers built into it, with an On/Volume knob and a tone knob. Both amps used miniatures, so no goldmine, but I put a 1/4 inch jack on the extension cabinet and it makes the ultimate low watt guitar amp. It has the tone of an old Fender Champ, but at a volume you could have a conversation or watch TV over. It even sounds good with pedals as long as you don't push it too hard. Unfortunately, the amp in the turntable cabinet was fried. A big capacitor that looked like a stick of dynamite had leaked all over it. If you (or anyone else) want it to play around with, I'll take it out of the box and send it to you for the cost of shipping. Did I mention that I only paid $13 for it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Quote from JOSH:

The Crunch channel has AC/DC written all over it. Lotsa great 70's era classic rock "crunch" kinda tones. Not too bright, but plenty of definition even with my stale strings. 

Do you think it is a wise choice to perform the test will "stale" strings. This will disguise the top end performance of the tube. You may think it is a dark tube, when in fact it is neutral and the strings are making it sound dark. Putting new strings on is going to brighten things up (maybe too much). Ahh, to have the ability to pre-stretch strings and dull them up just a tab. What I call one week old strings...the perfect tone. (Ernie Ball Slinky btw.) Anyway, you control the test with the amp, tubes and guitar. The amp and the tubes are what they call constants and the strings are variables. You have to keep your variable in a small window. I don't want you to go, "Wow! That sounds killer." Then you change strings and go, "Wow!!! That is friggin' bright!"

You see what I'm saying mate?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of the strongest 12AX7's that I own has the top mica spacer literally crushed to the connecting components and it works 100 per cent. I have several tube that have the top and bottom mica spacers slanted just as you describe. They all test and perform as they should.
> 
> So as long as the tube is working in the circuit, it should be fine. I've only come across a very few 12AX7's that worked on triode A, but not on triode B (or vice versa). This was due to poor quality control at a time when huge numbers of these tubes were being made. Like meat, they only would test small samples and if they passed they would ship the entire production run.
> 
> Let us know if the 12BZ7 lasts in you amp. Are you going to try one in your little amp?
> 
> Marty



Thanks. I didn't think the spacers were a big deal, but I wanted to make sure. 

I think the BZ7 is going to be a keeper. I did buy two, so yes, I will try it out in the Blackheart head. I was having too much fun with the Marshall last night to mess with it. You have to remove a ridiculous number of screws to get the back off that head.

While I have your ear, what can you tell me about this tube? I've been told it's a Tungsram. It has a little metal tag in it with the number "63" embossed. I have four of these that I pulled from an old Laney Pro Tube head. There are different numbers on the tags (year of manufacture?).


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> That's a nice looking handful of glass Josh! What are the black boxes? I'm not familiar with those...



The black boxes are the Electro Harmonix 12AX7-EH tubes.



RiverRatt said:


> How's your quest for TVs and stuff going? I also found a Sylvania 6BQ5 in an old TV recently. My latest find was a 1960's GE phonograph in STEREO!. It had one amp and pair of speakers built into the phonograph case, AND it had an extension cabinet that was roughly guitar amp head sized which also had an amp and two speakers built into it, with an On/Volume knob and a tone knob. Both amps used miniatures, so no goldmine, but I put a 1/4 inch jack on the extension cabinet and it makes the ultimate low watt guitar amp. It has the tone of an old Fender Champ, but at a volume you could have a conversation or watch TV over. It even sounds good with pedals as long as you don't push it too hard...



Sweet!!!



MartyStrat54 said:


> Quote from JOSH:
> 
> The Crunch channel has AC/DC written all over it. Lotsa great 70's era classic rock "crunch" kinda tones. Not too bright, but plenty of definition even with my stale strings.
> 
> Do you think it is a wise choice to perform the test will "stale" strings. This will disguise the top end performance of the tube. You may think it is a dark tube, when in fact it is neutral and the strings are making it sound dark. Putting new strings on is going to brighten things up (maybe too much). Ahh, to have the ability to pre-stretch strings and dull them up just a tab. What I call one week old strings...the perfect tone. (Ernie Ball Slinky btw.) Anyway, you control the test with the amp, tubes and guitar. The amp and the tubes are what they call constants and the strings are variables. You have to keep your variable in a small window. I don't want you to go, "Wow! That sounds killer." Then you change strings and go, "Wow!!! That is friggin' bright!"
> 
> You see what I'm saying mate?



I know, I know...  But the little kid in me just couldn't wait! I have barely touched my axe in near two weeks and the craving took over. But... Since you are correct as usual King Friday, I do plan to repeat the test of those tubes with fresh strings. It's just the "when" part that I'm unsure of.

... Boy, I'm sure glad your not in a hurry! 

 



... And here I am!  Well... Maybe not quite!


----------



## jrm

solarburnDSL50 said:


> First tell me what brand AT7 you have. If you want to use a AT7 I'd prolly put it in the PI slot. Were the GE's tested or do you know if new or used? I'd prolly put 1 GE in the V3 spot. V1 & V2 will figure out next. The celestions speakers, are they V30, GT-75's, Greenbacks, G12H30's, K100's or do you know? This will help but its not a deciding factor on what tubes.
> 
> Usually new production are about $15 on average. I know it varies a few dollars here and there. The NOS I will recommend may be $20 to $40. So if I recommend a $40 one it will be for only one tube cause I'm gonna mix it up a little for that tone stack. Let me know if you would spend that much for one NOS tube. Get back to me and will pick tubes together.
> 
> By the way we like some of the same guitar tones regarding Schenker and Lifeson.



made a mistake, not a at7 its a 12au7a RCA, it currently sits in the v4. The ge's are used and tested good (according to seller) I forgot the specs as i bought them about 6 months ago. I might be to cheap to spend $40 on 1 tube but let me know what you reccomend new and old.

The speakers are G12-85 celestion (I believe only produced for these cabs) I've owned these for 20 years and played many amps through them, they are good cabs.

what do you think of the mullard reissue el34's? I heard good things about them and what do you bias at?

Yeah I love their tones, glad you do makes it easier to shoot for that nice tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jrm


I don't think it's a good idea to run a 12AU7 in your PI slot. It's not going to fry anything, but the gain of a 12AU7 is about 17. Now if you are happy with the sound, power to ya! I just don't hear/see that many people doing this. Maybe a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a AU7.

Just my own personal comments.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> jrm
> 
> 
> I don't think it's a good idea to run a 12AU7 in your PI slot. It's not going to fry anything, but the gain of a 12AU7 is about 17. Now if you are happy with the sound, power to ya! I just don't hear/see that many people doing this. Maybe a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a AU7.
> 
> Just my own personal comments.
> 
> Marty



I gotta agree with Marty here and I like to use less gainful tubes at times. Just a little too low. AT7(I like these), 5751 or a 12AX7. But, we suggest and not govern here so as Marty stated whatever sounds best to your ears.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I gotta agree with Marty here and I like to use less gainful tubes at times. Just a little too low. AT7(I like these), 5751 or a 12AX7. But, we suggest and not govern here so as Marty stated whatever sounds best to your ears.



Hey Sweet Pea (he-he), thanks for sticking up for me a few threads back. I was just trying to help someone out. You know when someone does something stupid, I rarely hold that against them...but then they go and have to say something. Oh well. I'm over it as I should be.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> made a mistake, not a at7 its a 12au7a RCA, it currently sits in the v4. The ge's are used and tested good (according to seller) I forgot the specs as i bought them about 6 months ago. I might be to cheap to spend $40 on 1 tube but let me know what you reccomend new and old.
> 
> The speakers are G12-85 celestion (I believe only produced for these cabs) I've owned these for 20 years and played many amps through them, they are good cabs.
> 
> what do you think of the mullard reissue el34's? I heard good things about them and what do you bias at?
> 
> Yeah I love their tones, glad you do makes it easier to shoot for that nice tone.



I haven't tried the EL34 Mullards yet but Jerry the guy who modded my amp happens to praise these highly in a Marshall. In fact he uses all Mullard RI's in the preamp too.They are on my list of to do. Try them and let me know what ya think.

I'll give you some NOS choices and then some new production ones to choose from. Then let me know what you think sounds good to you.

NOS: Right now I'm demoing an RFT. Good golly Ms Molly is it ballsy. Put a ? maybe on this one. It may be too much for Classic rock...

V1-RCA 12AX7A, JAN Philips 12AX7WA(this is spendy. Creamy OD with nice mids. This slot only)
V2-RCA
V3-GE
PI-Jan($12)or a Mullard CV4024(this is $30)AT7. Both sound great. 

New production: You can find these at:12AX7 Preamp Tubes
thetubestore.com Audio and vacuum tubes for your amplifier. 

V1-Mullard RI, 
V2-Mullard RI, Tung Sol
V3-AC5(Chinese-good tube)
PI-LPS(Sovtec)

Now I am keeping classic rock in mind and the ability to roll off guitar volume nicely as well as having nice clean channel. There are some others I like but I thought I'd throw this out there as I have tried these tubes and found them good in a DSL for our music. I can mix em' all day long...

Also ask Marty about NOS combination's too. He will add more choices and tell you about the tubes as well and he might have them to sell. He has helped me big time with the NOS. Its his fault I use them he he. He really knows what sounds good so ask him. He also tests his tubes so you know what you are getting.

I'm not shy about telling you what I like for certain tones so any questions or comments are welcome. Also whatever you do get you must tell us how it works in your set up. That's the only requirement for joining the thread.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Sweet Pea (he-he), thanks for sticking up for me a few threads back. I was just trying to help someone out. You know when someone does something stupid, I rarely hold that against them...but then they go and have to say something. Oh well. I'm over it as I should be.
> 
> Marty



Hey I knew what you were doing that's why I chimed in. Besides like I said I'm biased anyways he he.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> or a Mullard CV4024B(this is $30)AT7. oth sound great.



Is this the 80's one with the autobot logo? I bought one of those and it didn't do anything for me. 

Marty, did you see my tube question above?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Is this the 80's one with the autobot logo? I bought one of those and it didn't do anything for me.
> 
> Marty, did you see my tube question above?



I'm sorry, I got all caught up in that DEAN ad that Josh posted.

I can answer part of your question. It is a Tungsram. If you have four out of a guitar amp, I would say they are 12AX7. If so, and if they are good, these tubes go for between 40 and 70 dollars each. They are also considered by audiophiles (who roll tubes everyday) to be one of the sweetest 12AX7's around.

Go here for a little more info:

Tungsram 12AX7/ECC83.

Now as far as the metal tag? Not all Tungsram have them. I think they were limited to the AU7, the AT7 and the AX7 (ECC81, 82, 83). What do the other tags say? I doubt if they are 1963 tubes, "But they could be!" If I remember, the tags were lot or production ID numbers. I'll look a little harder. The main thing is you have four of them babies. Good for you.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Is this the 80's one with the autobot logo? I bought one of those and it didn't do anything for me.
> 
> Marty, did you see my tube question above?



Well mine made sweet love to me. Just got to flip her switch.

Lots of players rave about the CV4024 that's why I tried it. I like it fine but I also thought the Jan sounded pretty much the same. I like At7's in certain apps.


----------



## solarburn

jrm said:


> made a mistake, not a at7 its a 12au7a RCA, it currently sits in the v4. The ge's are used and tested good (according to seller) I forgot the specs as i bought them about 6 months ago. I might be to cheap to spend $40 on 1 tube but let me know what you reccomend new and old.
> 
> The speakers are G12-85 celestion (I believe only produced for these cabs) I've owned these for 20 years and played many amps through them, they are good cabs.
> 
> what do you think of the mullard reissue el34's? I heard good things about them and what do you bias at?
> 
> Yeah I love their tones, glad you do makes it easier to shoot for that nice tone.



Why don't you try 1 Mullard RI 12AX7 and then finish the preamp off with the GE's. See how that sounds with what you already have.

As far as my bias goes I run mine about 70%. So with the Ruby's I have in there now my plate voltage was 470. After running the formula I get 37 for my bias.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... How's your quest for TVs and stuff going? I also found a Sylvania 6BQ5 in an old TV recently...



I am still looking whenever I drive by a garage sale or a thrift store, but so far no dice. I think I will concentrate on Stereos and Record Players... From what I'm told, and what I am seeing, most of the tubes in TV's just don't do it for guitar amps...



RiverRatt said:


> ... My latest find was a 1960's GE phonograph in STEREO! It had one amp and pair of speakers built into the phonograph case, AND it had an extension cabinet that was roughly guitar amp head sized which also had an amp and two speakers built into it, with an On/Volume knob and a tone knob. Both amps used miniatures, so no goldmine, but I put a 1/4 inch jack on the extension cabinet and it makes the ultimate low watt guitar amp. It has the tone of an old Fender Champ, but at a volume you could have a conversation or watch TV over. It even sounds good with pedals as long as you don't push it too hard...



That is a great find! Very cool.  I am jealous of that one. Hey... Marty is possibly looking for a low watt, "boutique", amp... Maybe you two could make a deal?  But seriously, that is a cool find and something that a person could have lots of fun with. I am hoping to find something like that myself.



RiverRatt said:


> ... Unfortunately, the amp in the turntable cabinet was fried. A big capacitor that looked like a stick of dynamite had leaked all over it. If you (or anyone else) want it to play around with, I'll take it out of the box and send it to you for the cost of shipping. Did I mention that I only paid $13 for it?



Eh... Ya win some, ya lose some. Overall I think you came out a winner with this one. No real money tubes, but when you love to play the $$$ isn't the main focus anyway.

Anyhoo... Far out RiverRatt. Rock on.


----------



## jrm

Thank You to everyone for the advice, with 12au7 in there it isn't bad sounding but I'll pull it and throw in another tube till I order the RI mullard and give it a try. I'm also gonna give the RI mullard el34 a try when I can. I'll post my results.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

jrm said:


> Thank You to everyone for the advice, with 12au7 in there it isn't bad sounding but I'll pull it and throw in another tube till I order the RI mullard and give it a try. I'm also gonna give the RI mullard el34 a try when I can. I'll post my results.



You have been assimilated. You are now one with the collective.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I am still looking whenever I drive by a garage sale or a thrift store, but so far no dice. I think I will concentrate on Stereos and Record Players... From what I'm told, and what I am seeing, most of the tubes in TV's just don't do it for guitar amps...



Check out antique malls and flea markets. That's where I've come up with my best finds. Old film projectors with built-in audio can be good, too. I know where a couple of those are, but the owner won't part with them.

Marty, thanks for the Tungsram info. Sounds like they are pretty rare. I think at least a couple of them are microphonic, and I have no way to test them. I have several tubes I'd like to part with, but I don't want to sell them without knowing if they are good or not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RATT

Sorry to hear that not all of the tubes are good. Without a tester, about all you can do is play them and see if they work. The only problem with an AX7 is that it can be pretty run down and still sound good. I've discussed this before where I said a worn out AX7 can work solidly as a 12AT7. So sometimes it is tough to say whether an AX7 is still putting out a gain factor of 85 to 100.

Even if only two of them are good, you've come out ahead.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

jrm said:


> Thank You to everyone for the advice, with 12au7 in there it isn't bad sounding but I'll pull it and throw in another tube till I order the RI mullard and give it a try. I'm also gonna give the RI mullard el34 a try when I can. I'll post my results.



Well if you throw in a 12AX7 let me know where to send the toilet paper, because there's gonna be an accident.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

Marty

I put a new line up in the preamp and I felt the clean get better/richer. So now I'm pretty stoked on the line up as is. Sounding better with the new entry RFT. I'm going to keep cook'n it though to make sure I'm getting some nice flavor... besides robust.

Anyways see sig for line up.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well mine made sweet love to me. Just got to flip her switch.
> 
> Lots of players rave about the CV4024 that's why I tried it. I like it fine but I also thought the Jan sounded pretty much the same. I like At7's in certain apps.



OK, I need to apologize. I tried the CV4024 with my current line-up and it was pretty sweet. I think I'm getting close to perfection. For some reason, my old RCAs just aren't doing it in V1 anymore. I'm happy with the hi-gain channel on the DSL, but the crunch channel is a little thin. I've need to find that magic 12AX7, and I don't think it's in my current arsenal. 

Marty, do you have any suggestions as to how I can get the Tungsrams tested? I don't mind shipping them, and I really don't have any use for them.


----------



## jrm

well when i was digging around for a 12 ax7 to put in I remembered I have a old ampeg v4 that's waiting for service and it has one 12ax7 in it. Turned out to be a old GE so currently running 4 old GE 12ax7 and it sounds real nice very rich and punchy. Amp still has alot of high end. I'm running my treble on 2 and presence on 4. Wondering how a new set of power tubes will help? But this is closer then when I had the JJ's in the preamp. Sounding better even the red channel warmed up I run that with the gain on 4 and the master way up, gives a nice punchy dirty clean. Wish my 2203 was working so i could compare the amps side by side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> OK, I need to apologize. I tried the CV4024 with my current line-up and it was pretty sweet. I think I'm getting close to perfection. For some reason, my old RCAs just aren't doing it in V1 anymore. I'm happy with the hi-gain channel on the DSL, but the crunch channel is a little thin. I've need to find that magic 12AX7, and I don't think it's in my current arsenal.
> 
> Marty, do you have any suggestions as to how I can get the Tungsrams tested? I don't mind shipping them, and I really don't have any use for them.



I sent you a PM and you can go from there. Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

jrm said:


> well when i was digging around for a 12 ax7 to put in I remembered I have a old ampeg v4 that's waiting for service and it has one 12ax7 in it. Turned out to be a old GE so currently running 4 old GE 12ax7 and it sounds real nice very rich and punchy. Amp still has alot of high end. I'm running my treble on 2 and presence on 4. Wondering how a new set of power tubes will help? But this is closer then when I had the JJ's in the preamp. Sounding better even the red channel warmed up I run that with the gain on 4 and the master way up, gives a nice punchy dirty clean. Wish my 2203 was working so i could compare the amps side by side.



Well I thought that you would have noticed a greater change than that. Of course there is no way to tell how much gain is left in them old GE AX7's. To me it would seem like the AU7 was like a choke on the gain of the amp. Putting an old GE 12AX7 in the PI slot should have made a very noticeable change in the way the amp sounded, unless the old GE is well, old.

If it were me, I would be looking at a complete tube make-over. I think it's due. I think some new preamp and power tubes would really make your amp come alive.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks. I didn't think the spacers were a big deal, but I wanted to make sure.
> 
> I think the BZ7 is going to be a keeper. I did buy two, so yes, I will try it out in the Blackheart head. I was having too much fun with the Marshall last night to mess with it. You have to remove a ridiculous number of screws to get the back off that head.
> 
> While I have your ear, what can you tell me about this tube? I've been told it's a Tungsram. It has a little metal tag in it with the number "63" embossed. I have four of these that I pulled from an old Laney Pro Tube head. There are different numbers on the tags (year of manufacture?).



Well my memory is still intact. I found out on another forum what the little metal tag and number means. Here it is:

I live in Hungary, and I have a lot of Tungsram valves. Tungsram use Yellow logo on the valves, and of course the little metal tab, which contains a number. This number gives information about which machine line made this valve.

So as I had said prior, it was a lot or production number and that's what it is a production number.

Marty


----------



## jrm

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I thought that you would have noticed a greater change than that. Of course there is no way to tell how much gain is left in them old GE AX7's. To me it would seem like the AU7 was like a choke on the gain of the amp. Putting an old GE 12AX7 in the PI slot should have made a very noticeable change in the way the amp sounded, unless the old GE is well, old.
> 
> If it were me, I would be looking at a complete tube make-over. I think it's due. I think some new preamp and power tubes would really make your amp come alive.
> 
> Marty



Oh its sounding great, I'm very happy so far but I agree it should get a retube, I'm not a gigging player anymore so there is no rush, I'm enjoying playing with the different tones of this amp. Now i need to get my 2203 working and I'll be in heaven.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jrm said:


> Oh its sounding great, I'm very happy so far but I agree it should get a retube, I'm not a gigging player anymore so there is no rush, I'm enjoying playing with the different tones of this amp. Now i need to get my 2203 working and I'll be in heaven.



Same here, my hard core gigging days are over with. I'm just trying to pass on a little knowledge for those who wish to accept it.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was doing some research to help out a friend and came across this and thought I would post it.

12AX7 Vacuum Tube-

12AX7 is a vacuum tube of high gain. It is believed to have been originally developed in 1946 by RCA. The 12AX7 vacuum tube was originally intended as miniature form-factor follow-on to the 6SN7 vacuum tube family of dual-triode low-cost amplifier tubes for audio and computer applications. Its wide use as a vacuum tube in tube based guitar amplifiers has caused it to be one of the very few small-signal type of vacuum tube to continue in production since it was introduced. The 12AX7 is the most common member of a huge family of miniature twin-triode type of vacuum tube types.

The vacuum tube has a center tapped filament so it can be used in either 6.3V 300ma or 12.6V 150ma heater circuits.

Presently the 12AX7 vacuum tube is made in various versions in Russia, China, and Slovokia and one in Serbia, for a total annual production figure of 2 million units (estimated). The vast majority of these types of vacuum tube are used in new-production guitar amplifiers or for replacement purposes in guitar or audio equipment. 

However, in our opinion, these new production types of 12AX7 vacuum tube do not even come close to the tonal qualitites of NOS (New Old Stock) type of vacuum tube produced in the USA, Great Britian, Holland, and Germany. If you would like to check out the NOS 12AX7 vacuum tube offerings we have then please Click Here! Vacuum tube and electron vacuum tube and audio vacuum tube 12AX7 at LOW Prices!

Marty


----------



## cooljuk

Hey Marty - 

Thanks for the link. I had not found that site yet. 
You seem to be a pretty knowledgeable guy concerning glass. What are your thoughts on these:

_NOS Mullard EL34- Matched pair (approx 7 mA apart) of Mullard made XF3. Slightly further apart than we like for Hifi, but should be fine in most guitar amp applications. Put them in that old guitar amp and hear the magic! Specially reduced price $199.99! Save $40.00! _

I know the XF3 is less desirable than the 1 or 2. I've not used the XF3s, myself. A 7mA difference won't be a problem other than one tube wearing out a bit quicker if anything, I think. Would you agree?


----------



## MartyStrat54

cooljuk said:


> Hey Marty -
> 
> Thanks for the link. I had not found that site yet.
> You seem to be a pretty knowledgeable guy concerning glass. What are your thoughts on these:
> 
> _NOS Mullard EL34- Matched pair (approx 7 mA apart) of Mullard made XF3. Slightly further apart than we like for Hifi, but should be fine in most guitar amp applications. Put them in that old guitar amp and hear the magic! Specially reduced price $199.99! Save $40.00! _
> 
> I know the XF3 is less desirable than the 1 or 2. I've not used the XF3s, myself. A 7mA difference won't be a problem other than one tube wearing out a bit quicker if anything, I think. Would you agree?



Well I just bought a super strong matched pair of xf4's for $99 and I have them loaded in a TSL602. Yes, the overall sound is amazing. Are you selling these tubes, or did you find someone selling them? 7 mils apart would not be a problem. One tube would however be passing more current and voltage. I personally feel the price is too high. Did they state how much life was left in the tubes? What did they test at? As I said, I do not know if you are selling or attempting to buy these tubes. In closing, I will always recommend Mullard EL34's. They are one of the best sounding 34's out there and hardly any of what is known as 34 rattle. Very solid construction.

Marty


----------



## cooljuk

Oh, sorry if I wasn't clear. Those tubes are listed for sale on the site of the link you posted, Vacuum tube and electron vacuum tube and audio vacuum tube 12AX7 at LOW Prices!

No other information was there than what I posted above. I assume if they are listed as NOS they should have "full" life left, if that answers your previous question. He didn't post any other measurements, but I could always call. 

I've had XF1s and normally prefer Siemens these days because I can find them for far less that Mullards. 

If you think they are overpriced, would you please share a fair priced source for original Mullard NOS EL34s? PM me if you prefer. If I can score some Mullards for that price, I'll switch back to them from my Siemens. 

Thanks, btw! I haven't posted in this thread much, but I follow it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cooljuk said:


> Oh, sorry if I wasn't clear. Those tubes are listed for sale on the site of the link you posted, Vacuum tube and electron vacuum tube and audio vacuum tube 12AX7 at LOW Prices!
> 
> No other information was there than what I posted above. I assume if they are listed as NOS they should have "full" life left, if that answers your previous question. He didn't post any other measurements, but I could always call.
> 
> I've had XF1s and normally prefer Siemens these days because I can find them for far less that Mullards.
> 
> If you think they are overpriced, would you please share a fair priced source for original Mullard NOS EL34s? PM me if you prefer. If I can score some Mullards for that price, I'll switch back to them from my Siemens.
> 
> Thanks, btw! I haven't posted in this thread much, but I follow it.



Well I can tell you are a knowledgeable glass person yourself. I too use Siemens and have two 100 watt amps glassed with them. Siemens are a hell of a good deal if you want "real" EL34's. I guess right now I have twelve of them and eight are being used. Old, original TESLA's are a good buy for 34's.

That link I posted was to show another member some info on some tubes he had. I think once you get away from EBAY, the prices get freaky. I usually just bid on tubes from buyers I can trust and I never buy from overseas sellers. (Too much hassle if there is a problem with the tube(s). So far, I haven't had to pay a set price for tubes. 

You are right about the NOS tube. If they stated it was NOS, then it should test on a tube tester in the mid to high 90's or better. I hate it when someone sells me NOS tubes and they read 85. They may have come in factory boxes, but you can buy those as well. 85 means the tube has been used for a while.

To me, I think the Mullards you are looking at are over-priced by about 40 to 50 dollars. I'd go $149 for them, but not $199. That is my opinion. I have a glut of preamp tubes, but I'm really short on good power tubes right now. I have several sets of current production EL34's that I keep just in case I need tubes. The best thing to do is get busy on EBAY. Search all EL34's, select "To Watch" option on those you are interested in and then you can get a feel for what the tubes are going for. I used this same technique for a month shopping for a TSL head and I ended up getting one that was like brand new for $700. The seller lost money, because he held a no reserve auction and I got up at 2 AM to finish bidding on it.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been meaning to ask you guys about the 12AZ7 that you were talking about a few pages back. I can't find much info about them, except that they are pretty rare and are similar to a 12AT7. Are these worth seeking out, and is there a particular one to look for?


----------



## cooljuk

Thanks, Marty. I haven't been been actively seeking 34s in a year or two. I spent much time recently obsessing over 6922 and 12AX7 types. After recently scoring a few JCM 800s, I'm back to my old ways again. 
My homepage on eBay is still full of saved favorite searches for NOS Teles, Mullards, Valvos, Amperex and such. I'm worried that ebay sellers will sell used as NOS and I have no tester at the moment to verify. I had a not-so-great Heathkit one, but sold it in hopes of getting a nice Hickok from a co-worker who had two, but the deal fell through. I should probably just spend more time reading seller's feedback.

Nothing like the trill of the hunt ...for quality tubes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've been meaning to ask you guys about the 12AZ7 that you were talking about a few pages back. I can't find much info about them, except that they are pretty rare and are similar to a 12AT7. Are these worth seeking out, and is there a particular one to look for?



Well the AZ7 has the same gain as a AT7. However the plate resistance and other electrical characteristics are different. What does this mean? It means that both tubes would sound and perform different in the same circuit. 

It is a rare tube, but since it is close to a 12AT7, I'm not inclined to look in the bushes for an AZ7.

If you are bored and want to read up on tubes, here is a "long" link, but very fitting to this thread. It was upgraded on 12/31/2007.

12ax7

This link really gets down and dirty on on the subject of 12AX7's. Ratings on various tubes, including tone. (I may have posted this a long time ago on a different thread. If so, I'm sorry.)

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

cooljuk said:


> Thanks, Marty. I haven't been been actively seeking 34s in a year or two. I spent much time recently obsessing over 6922 and 12AX7 types. After recently scoring a few JCM 800s, I'm back to my old ways again.
> My homepage on eBay is still full of saved favorite searches for NOS Teles, Mullards, Valvos, Amperex and such. I'm worried that ebay sellers will sell used as NOS and I have no tester at the moment to verify. I had a not-so-great Heathkit one, but sold it in hopes of getting a nice Hickok from a co-worker who had two, but the deal fell through. I should probably just spend more time reading seller's feedback.
> 
> Nothing like the trill of the hunt ...for quality tubes!



Here, here to that. You got the EBAY thing down. The main thing is I only buy from those who state their test results. I look at their feedback and whether or not they are a Power Sellers. Once I get a tube, I test it on my B and K 707 and if the tube does not test correctly, I either get the tube for less money, or I return it...and I have returned quite a few tubes for a refund.

The thing is, you can still get super buys on EBAY, but you have to follow certain rules.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I'm liking the JAN Philips 12AX7WA in both my amps. Its the last of the 80's military production. So far in the Marshall I've tried it in V1 & V2 and prefer it in V1. Its strong in the mids and has plenty of gain for me. It shows more of its personality in V1. 

Seems to have a wide range of frequency. Lows , mids and highs come through nicely. Guitar roll off is natural with this one. Cleans sound nice, clear with neat little overtones especially when in V3 of the NT.

I feel its good for rock tones. Blues too. Well I got more to report about but I'm more tired than I thought so I'm off for sleep. I'll put more down later on another tube I've been using as well...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - New Strings*



joshuaaewallen said:


> MartyStrat54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quote from JOSH:
> 
> The Crunch channel has AC/DC written all over it. Lotsa great 70's era classic rock "crunch" kinda tones. Not too bright, but plenty of definition even with my stale strings.
> 
> Do you think it is a wise choice to perform the test will "stale" strings. This will disguise the top end performance of the tube... ... You have to keep your variable in a small window. I don't want you to go, "Wow! That sounds killer." Then you change strings and go, "Wow!!! That is friggin' bright!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> know, I know...  But the little kid in me just couldn't wait! I have barely touched my axe in near two weeks and the craving took over. But... Since you are correct as usual King Friday, I do plan to repeat the test of those tubes with fresh strings. It's just the "when" part that I'm unsure of.
> 
> ... Boy, I'm sure glad your not in a hurry!
> 
> 
> ...
Click to expand...


Well... I had just enough time in between running around like a chicken with it's head cut off to throw on a new set of strings. Now I just need a wee bit-o-time to play them through this tube set up...

While Restringing:








V1:




V2:


----------



## solarburn

Josh

I want to hear about the EI. What slot you going to run that in first?

I may have to hit Marty up for a couple of RCA-A's. I like em'.


----------



## solarburn

I've been demoing a RFT 12AX7 in V1 in my DSL for a solid week now. I have had the chance to play it at volume with a couple of different line ups in the preamp. In my first line up I felt it was a bit too gainful and hurt the cleans and guitar roll off a little. Still was great but I like my touch and feel intact.

I changed the other slots and ended up with the RCA 12AX7A in V2, RCA V3 and then Magnavox in the PI. That fixed it. Clean was awesome and guitar roll off back.

So with my current line up and the RFT sitting in V1 I'm hearing my Marshall get ballzier in the gain department. Its a darker tube with pronounced lows including lower mids where the ballzee gain comes from. The highs are present though so it doesn't dull up or sound flat. 

I noticed this tube right away which is not always the case when rolling tubes. The low volume gain was crazy but what really caught me off guard was when I opened her up to the power section it just smoothed out and crunched up with those low mids and was so meaty sounding. It is harmonically gifted and has nice feedback to held notes. 

I was bitch slapped by this tube! The difference was easy to hear from previous combination's because the tone really warmed up and punched hard from what I had been getting from the other tubes in V1 and as a group. The RFT really has a hard rock flavor to it. It smokes. I have tried milder tones with it and it has done well there too but it really shines in the hard rock category me thinks.

With the Night Train and its EL84's it didn't react the same. With that circuit it was too warm and dark in V3. In the PI slot it was good paired with the JP 12AX7WA in V3. 

I mixed the Mullard RI in in both spots and found the JP in V3 and the RFT in the PI was best. I don't know that I will leave the RFT in the PI, seems a waste there. Going to try a couple more I have in the PI. It will stay if it turns out better though.

The RFT has good reviews in Marshall's, Boogie Mark 3's, Dr. Z Maz, Diesel Herbert's and Carmen Ghias just to name a few.

I love how it sounds. Its a great setup as is now. I consider it right up there with a couple of my best NOS line ups since Marty sent me a group to roll. 

So in summary this tube sucks and don't waste your money. They are getting hard to come by any more.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> So with my current line up and the RFT sitting in V1 I'm hearing my Marshall get ballzier in the gain department. Its a darker tube with pronounced lows including lower mids where the ballzee gain comes from. The highs are present though so it doesn't dull up or sound flat.



That sounds like what I need. I'm trying to darken up my DSL a bit, too. I've thought about trying the treble bleed cap mod on the red channel, but I can't get up the nerve to do it. Any other suggestions besides the RFT?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That sounds like what I need. I'm trying to darken up my DSL a bit, too. I've thought about trying the treble bleed cap mod on the red channel, but I can't get up the nerve to do it. Any other suggestions besides the RFT?



For $40 try it and find out. YES this will do it. Only need 1 of them and put it in V1. Seriously. If not you can turn this tube around easily and make your money back.

What preamp tubes are you running and what power tubes RR?

Try this setting and tell me how it sounds on yours: Volume 3
Lead 1
Presence-3
treble-4
Mid-3 or 4
Bass-5.5
Gain-6 or 7

Bass boost in mid shift out.

Lead 2: Volume 3
Presence-2
Treble-4
mid- 5
Bass-5.5
Gain-7

Bass boost out and mid shift out.

Running the mids lower will thicken it up. Don't scoop just lower and see if it warms up some by thickening. Mess around with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's really close to the settings I'm using now. I usually leave the Lead 2 channel's gain on around 4 or 5 unless I need a really thick lead tone. With the gain on 10 and that RCA 12BZ7 in V2, it's like having an instant "Red House" setting. 

Using the bridge pickup on my LP with the tone on 10 works great for the crunch channel, but switching to the Lead2 channel I have to roll the tone control off to about 3 to tame the treble. 

Did you get the RFT off eBay? That's the only place I've found them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> That's really close to the settings I'm using now. I usually leave the Lead 2 channel's gain on around 4 or 5 unless I need a really thick lead tone. With the gain on 10 and that RCA 12BZ7 in V2, it's like having an instant "Red House" setting.
> 
> Using the bridge pickup on my LP with the tone on 10 works great for the crunch channel, but switching to the Lead2 channel I have to roll the tone control off to about 3 to tame the treble.
> 
> Did you get the RFT off eBay? That's the only place I've found them.



Ratt, let me know how that BZ7 holds up in your amp. You may have got yourself a good one. They have really long plates and they tend to rattle.

BTW, Joe bought the tube from a dealer, not EBAY.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the 12BZ7's will be fine. I picked up two of them from Tube Depot. They list them as NOS various brands, and I got lucky with two great-sounding RCA tubes. I've tried both in V2 and they sound identical and are very quiet. I've been scouring the internet for more information about them - someone suggested using one in the PI spot, so now I'm going to have to try that. 

I still haven't tried a BZ7 in the Blackheart Little Giant. I'm playing out with it for the next couple of weeks and I don't want to take a chance until I get it back in the house for awhile. I may end up selling it along with that big batch of tubes and some pedals and see if I can swing a Vox Night Train. I've got GAS for that amp pretty bad. It looks like it'll cover all the ground the Blackheart does and then some.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's really close to the settings I'm using now. I usually leave the Lead 2 channel's gain on around 4 or 5 unless I need a really thick lead tone. With the gain on 10 and that RCA 12BZ7 in V2, it's like having an instant "Red House" setting.
> 
> Using the bridge pickup on my LP with the tone on 10 works great for the crunch channel, but switching to the Lead2 channel I have to roll the tone control off to about 3 to tame the treble.
> 
> Did you get the RFT off eBay? That's the only place I've found them.



I'll pm you.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ratt, let me know how that BZ7 holds up in your amp. You may have got yourself a good one. They have really long plates and they tend to rattle.
> 
> BTW, Joe bought the tube from a dealer, not EBAY.
> 
> Marty



Marty you have any more RCA 12AX7A's? I'd like to get a couple more of them on hand. Good tube.

I found 1 dealer that has Anos RCA 12AX7A's and he wants $48 for one and they are used but test like new. Otherwise I'm not seeing much of a selection from my places as far as these go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty you have any more RCA 12AX7A's? I'd like to get a couple more of them on hand. Good tube.
> 
> I found 1 dealer that has Anos RCA 12AX7A's and he wants $48 for one and they are used but test like new. Otherwise I'm not seeing much of a selection from my places as far as these go.



I know I have some, but I'll have to look on the tubes themselves as I only have "12AX7" written on the boxes and they could be "A's" or "WA's." When I find some I will PeeMmm you.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I know I have some, but I'll have to look on the tubes themselves as I only have "12AX7" written on the boxes and they could be "A's" or "WA's." When I find some I will PeeMmm you.
> 
> Marty



Righteous my friend! Must you Pee on my Mmm?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just got contacted by the Moderator and he said this thread has gotten too long and that he is going to have to start charging us for the upkeep on this thread. 

You got any ideas on how we can pay for this?






PSYCH!

This thread is huge. Almost 6,000 viewers. Holy Horse Manure, Robin!

Well done my friends...well done.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just got contacted by the Moderator and he said this thread has gotten too long and that he is going to have to start charging us for the upkeep on this thread.
> 
> You got any ideas on how we can pay for this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PSYCH!
> 
> This thread is huge. Almost 6,000 viewers. Holy Horse Manure, Robin!
> 
> Well done my friends...well done.
> 
> Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just got contacted by the Moderator and he said this thread has gotten too long and that he is going to have to start charging us for the upkeep on this thread.
> 
> You got any ideas on how we can pay for this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PSYCH!
> 
> This thread is huge. Almost 6,000 viewers. Holy Horse Manure, Robin!
> 
> Well done my friends...well done.
> 
> Marty




Ouch! Ya actually almost had me goin' there Marty! Whew... It looks like our little thread has really grown a lot from it's humble beginnings. Kudos guys!

So my wife was out running around today and came across a yard sale... She decided to stop, and wound up bringing something home for me...

























​Click Here For The Webshots Album Containing All The Pics Thus Far...


I basically just walked in the door from work, so I can't tell ya much about it, but decided to snap a few quick photos to share with ya'll... Looks like there's one or two tubes that are probably 12AX7's, the others I'm not sure about yet. And... This thing still works! I tuned in the local AM news station and it came in just fine. Far out, eh?

Any thoughts on this item from ya'll out there in forum-land?

Ok... 'Nuff O that. I need to get my stinky hind into the shower so I can be fresh as daisies for the old lady!  Ciao!


----------



## MartyStrat54

From the size of it and what I have seen, it is a single-ended 6BQ5 (EL84) amp with either one or two 12AX7's. Hell, if it's working, I'd clean the old girl up and use it for the garage (he he he). 

Leave it up to the wife to score what I had talked about, that is a radio/record player and not a TV. She's out driving home and "BAM," she scores.

(Tried looking at the other pic's and it was downloading real slow and then froze, so I didn't see the other pic's. Man those tubes a really dusty.)

PS-Is this part solid state and tube? You should have a bevy of radio tubes as well, unless they made it SS. Let me know. 

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those power tubes could be 7199's as well. I love those two little output trannies. They're really cute. Good size power tranny, probably was providing 285V B+, plus 5V to the rectifier tube and 6.3V for the heaters.

How much did she pay for this?

Now I'm curious.

Martino


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Marty McFly is da bomb!

$15 for this critter.

There are separate sets of tubes in two different "bays" within the cabinet... Looks like one for the radio and one for the record player... but it is missing the actual record player/turn-table component (pictures 4 & 6 above are the one set of tubes, and picture 5 is the other set).


----------



## RiverRatt

Great score, Josh! Dontcha almost hate to rip into them when they're that pretty? If those are 6BQ5's, you've got almost enough stuff there to build a killer 18-watt clone. How many preamp tubes are in the radio tuner in picture #5? The ones in the shields look a little too tall for 12AX7's. Could be 6FQ7's. Keep us posted. Inquiring minds want to know!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Great score, Josh! Dontcha almost hate to rip into them when they're that pretty? If those are 6BQ5's, you've got almost enough stuff there to build a killer 18-watt clone. How many preamp tubes are in the radio tuner in picture #5? The ones in the shields look a little too tall for 12AX7's. Could be 6FQ7's. Keep us posted. Inquiring minds want to know!



Ahh, but you forgot this is "stereo." The amp has twin output trannies and everything is split. Rules out an 18-watt clone. If it had been a mono amp, I would have drove up to Minnesota to pick it up from Josh (or his wife).

I mean I guess you could hand wire an 18-watter out of some of the parts. You would still need to pick up some other parts, like a solid 30 watt OPT and a standard chassis. Be fun to build.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Yardsale HiFi Tubes:*

Here's better pics of the tubes I pulled this morning from that HiFi. One is Marked 12AX7SA, the rest have varying model numbers that I am not familiar with. (RCA 5y3GT, 7189A, 6AU6A, 6BE6, 6EZ8, and 6GH8)

















Click Here For The Webshots Album Containing All The Pics Thus Far...

Marty... Or anyone else... If you happen to know what these other tubes are, or are used for, please let me know. I'd love to find them a good home. (I'm not in it for the $$$, just looking for good tubes that I can use)

If anyone wants to get a look at the BIG hi-res photos, just let me know which one's and I'll email you.


----------



## cooljuk

The RCA 5Y3GT is a full wave rectifier. Not worth much, but it's a nice tube if it's in good shape.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That sounds like what I need. I'm trying to darken up my DSL a bit, too. I've thought about trying the treble bleed cap mod on the red channel, but I can't get up the nerve to do it. Any other suggestions besides the RFT?



Here is a little summary right up describing the RFT 12AX7 I found surf'n last night:

ECC83/R.F.T
German valve that I have seen also branded Brimar, Siemens & Telefunken. This tube was also used for a long period by Marshall. The valve has
a rich bass response with great drive. Very low in microphonics due to thick glass envelope. The valve also distorts earlier than the U.S.A types.
The valve does show less treble response than the U.S.A types which lends the valve to be used in a more rock style set up. The rich harmonic
distortion make this a great valve in Marshall. Boogie and Vox amps. It showed rich sustain with plenty of bass crunch. Mid range was clear and
detailed. Defiantly for the rockers and blues players.

Here is the link where I got this from:

12ax7


----------



## RiverRatt

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Yardsale HiFi Tubes:*



joshuaaewallen said:


> One is Marked 12AX7SA, the rest have varying model numbers that I am not familiar with. (RCA 5y3GT, 7189, AU6A, 6BE6, 6EZ8, and 6GH8)



The 7189 is IIRC a military or high-voltage 6BQ5/EL84. The 12AX7 is a Sylvania - you're picking up part of the letters USA which they always put under the model number. I have no idea about the rest except the rectifier.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here is a little summary right up describing the RFT 12AX7 I found surf'n last night:12ax7



Yes, thanks solarburn. I believe I hit that same page yesterday. I had a FIIF day at the office yesterday (F___ It, It's Friday) and I did a lot of surfing. Everything I've read says that the RFT is magic in a Marshall. Thanks for pointing me toward them. I'm going to have to pick up at least a couple.



> Ahh, but you forgot this is "stereo." The amp has twin output trannies and everything is split. Rules out an 18-watt clone. If it had been a mono amp, I would have drove up to Minnesota to pick it up from Josh (or his wife).
> 
> I mean I guess you could hand wire an 18-watter out of some of the parts. You would still need to pick up some other parts, like a solid 30 watt OPT and a standard chassis. Be fun to build.
> 
> Marty



I knew it would be some work, and that the OT's would be too weak, but a couple of scores like that and you should have enough carbon comp resistors and some of the caps. I'm surprised it didn't have an EZ81 rectifier. And yes, it would be fun to build. I'm still about $200 away from having enough stuff. The ELL80 and EZ81 and the two Sonotone ECC83's I sent came from a very similar radio/Hi-Fi.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, thanks solarburn. I believe I hit that same page yesterday. I had a FIIF day at the office yesterday (F___ It, It's Friday) and I did a lot of surfing. Everything I've read says that the RFT is magic in a Marshall. Thanks for pointing me toward them. I'm going to have to pick up at least a couple.
> 
> 
> 
> I knew it would be some work, and that the OT's would be too weak, but a couple of scores like that and you should have enough carbon comp resistors and some of the caps. I'm surprised it didn't have an EZ81 rectifier. And yes, it would be fun to build. I'm still about $200 away from having enough stuff. The ELL80 and EZ81 and the two Sonotone ECC83's I sent came from a very similar radio/Hi-Fi.



You got it brother. Enough on that then. Moving right along...hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Yardsale HiFi Tubes:*



RiverRatt said:


> The 7189 is IIRC a military or high-voltage 6BQ5/EL84. The 12AX7 is a Sylvania - you're picking up part of the letters USA which they always put under the model number. I have no idea about the rest except the rectifier.



I screwed up earlier and called the 7189's, 7199's. (Missed it by that much!)

I had taken a second look and realized they were too tall to be 6BQ5's.

And yes, the GE is actually a Sylvania. The logo has the "USA" and the dots below it. By the late 50's and early 60's, a lot of tube production was already slowing down because of the transistor. Furthermore, plants were built in Japan to bring the cost of tube making down. It was common for one company to buy 300,000 12AX7's from another company and relabel them. However, the actual manufacturer always wanted to leave their permanent mark on the tube. I know a bit about it, but there's a lot more to the story. At the very end of tube production, some tubes were relabeled with up to five different part numbers. Think about that for a moment. 

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

To quote John Lennon, "I've got blisters on my fingers!"

I just took a big step toward the tone I've been looking for. I finally got up the nerve to clip the treble bleed cap on the tube board, thanks to this page. At first, I thought the difference was subtle. Then, I noticed that I didn't have to compensate for the spiky high frequencies when switching from crunch to ultra-gain. I played around with the gain level on the ultra channel. I noticed pretty quickly that this channel sounded a lot more like a hot-rodded JCM800 than before. When my wife left for a while this evening, I cranked the gain up to 10 and turned the amp up to piss-off-the-neighbors loud. I ended up playing for about 2 hours. With the 12BZ7 and the treble bleed cap out of the picture, this thing is a fire breather! It absolutely NAILS the Appetite for Destruction tone, as well as that classic Billy Gibbons melt-your-face tone. I'm just waiting for that RFT 12AX7 to put the icing on the cake. Of course, a good Les Paul R8 plus some Wolfetone Dr. Vintage pickups helps. I'm wanting to get the Strat out and try it, but I don't think my fingers can take it. This thread absolutely is the best thing that's happened since I got my Marshall. Thanks, guys!!!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - Yardsale HiFi Tubes:*



RiverRatt said:


> The 7189 is IIRC a military or high-voltage 6BQ5/EL84. The 12AX7 is a Sylvania - you're picking up part of the letters USA which they always put under the model number. I have no idea about the rest except the rectifier.



So the 7189 in interchangeable w/ an EL84?



MartyStrat54 said:


> I screwed up earlier and called the 7189's, 7199's. (Missed it by that much!)
> 
> I had taken a second look and realized they were too tall to be 6BQ5's.
> 
> And yes, the GE is actually a Sylvania. The logo has the "USA" and the dots below it. By the late 50's and early 60's, a lot of tube production was already slowing down because of the transistor. Furthermore, plants were built in Japan to bring the cost of tube making down. It was common for one company to buy 300,000 12AX7's from another company and relabel them. However, the actual manufacturer always wanted to leave their permanent mark on the tube. I know a bit about it, but there's a lot more to the story. At the very end of tube production, some tubes were relabeled with up to five different part numbers. Think about that for a moment.
> 
> Marty



Ha! I don't know how I missed that! Must have been an angle/lighting thing combined w/ the "USA" being partially covered by the "General Electric" writing... Anyhoo... When I went back and looked at the tube it sure seems plain as day now!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> To quote John Lennon, "I've got blisters on my fingers!"
> 
> I just took a big step toward the tone I've been looking for. I finally got up the nerve to clip the treble bleed cap on the tube board, thanks to this page. At first, I thought the difference was subtle. Then, I noticed that I didn't have to compensate for the spiky high frequencies when switching from crunch to ultra-gain. I played around with the gain level on the ultra channel. I noticed pretty quickly that this channel sounded a lot more like a hot-rodded JCM800 than before. When my wife left for a while this evening, I cranked the gain up to 10 and turned the amp up to piss-off-the-neighbors loud. I ended up playing for about 2 hours. With the 12BZ7 and the treble bleed cap out of the picture, this thing is a fire breather! It absolutely NAILS the Appetite for Destruction tone, as well as that classic Billy Gibbons melt-your-face tone. I'm just waiting for that RFT 12AX7 to put the icing on the cake. Of course, a good Les Paul R8 plus some Wolfetone Dr. Vintage pickups helps. I'm wanting to get the Strat out and try it, but I don't think my fingers can take it. This thread absolutely is the best thing that's happened since I got my Marshall. Thanks, guys!!!!!



Way to go on the mod man. Glad its something you can really use. When you use your crunch channel are you just using the amp or are you putting any OD or clean boost to it? Where a bouts do you have the gain set on it? I'm just curious.

I so need a Les Paul...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Way to go on the mod man. Glad its something you can really use. When you use your crunch channel are you just using the amp or are you putting any OD or clean boost to it? Where a bouts do you have the gain set on it? I'm just curious.
> 
> I so need a Les Paul...



Everybody should have at least one Les Paul! I think it's a law in Tennessee. 

The gain on the crunch channel depends on how loud I'm able to play. At home, around 8. If I'm playing out, around 6 or 7. I don't usually use a pedal in front of the Marshall, but I've got a Bad Monkey for my little 15 watt that I sometimes use. I picked up an Electro Harmonix Dr. Q at a friend's shop a couple of months ago that I love. I know it's not an OD pedal, but it can really shape the input... a bit like an auto wah, or you can use it as a notch filter and get a pretty convincing Mick Ronson Ziggy Stardust tone.

Josh, this turned up on a Google search - there's a lot of info about 7189's on the web. I didn't realize there was a 7189A with a different pinout until I read this. Check out the prices on those things!! What brand are yours?

http://www.vacuumtubes.com/6bq5.html


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... Josh, this turned up on a Google search - there's a lot of info about 7189's on the web. I didn't realize there was a 7189A with a different pinout until I read this. Check out the prices on those things!! What brand are yours?
> 
> 6BQ5 / EL84 Vacuum Tube List



Holy Cow! That's serious $$$. I'll bet those are NOS... Whereas mine are _definitely_ used. Looks like they can be had a bit cheaper on evilBay... 7189A, Electronics, Collectibles items on eBay.com.







I may have to contract with my man Marty to do some tube testing for me and start selling off any that are good... Granted I'm not looking to make tons of $$$ or anything, but a few buck to help with my "guitar gear fund" is always useful...


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's another page that has more info on the 7189A - sounds like they could be interchangeable in the right circuit. 

7189A Tube Differences


----------



## RiverRatt

That picture looks like it's a 7189 Sylvania. If so, it should be good to go in an EL84 amp.

Scratch that. I just took another look at the picture and it is a 7189A. Bad luck there. Still, take a look at that second link I found before you give up hope.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like the unit was made around 1962. That's the date code showing on the 7189A. Too bad they weren't 7189's. I looked at the prices and then I looked at what he was asking for EL34's. Holy crap...those are "each" prices and not per pair. I think I did real good on my xf4's for $99. Not to mention they tested NOS.

It's been a while since I've been to that site. It's amazing how many tube brokers are out there and how many tubes are still left, if you've got the cash.

He also made the comment that GE was the only company that made the 7189A. If he really knew his tubes (and tube identification), he would know that good old Sylvania made the tubes for GE. (As I said, by the late 50's and early 60's, it was common for GE to have Sylvania make several dozen types of tubes for them and have them labeled GE. Everybody was wanting to get out of the tube business. That's why there are some damn good Japanese tubes out there. Sylvania kept their tube plants open longer than RCA.)

Marty

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Here's another page that has more info on the 7189A - sounds like they could be interchangeable in the right circuit.
> 
> 7189A Tube Differences



So, if I read that right... The 7189A is a suitable "upgrade" to an EL84, and can handle higher voltage, but... An EL84 may not work that well (or at all) as a replacement for a 7189A? 

... I may be reading that wrong. I am waay underslept and amp hopped up on energy drinks right now...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Looks like the unit was made around 1962. That's the date code showing on the 7189A. Too bad they weren't 7189's. I looked at the prices and then I looked at what he was asking for EL34's. Holy crap...those are "each" prices and not per pair. I think I did real good on my xf4's for $99. Not to mention they tested NOS.



Looks like some of these may be worth a couple buck on eBay... If folks are actually buying. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> It's been a while since I've been to that site. It's amazing how many tube brokers are out there and how many tubes are still left, if you've got the cash.




Think it's wise to just list them and see what I can fetch, or shelve them for a later date when they may be more in-demand? Either way...

Perhaps I can contract w/ you to test some of these tubes for me so that I can have accurate stats on them for selling, trading, or whatever. I'd make it worth your while...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... He also made the comment that GE was the only company that made the 7189A. If he really knew his tubes (and tube identification), he would know that good old Sylvania made the tubes for GE. (As I said, by the late 50's and early 60's, it was common for GE to have Sylvania make several dozen types of tubes for them and have them labeled GE. Everybody was wanting to get out of the tube business. That's why there are some damn good Japanese tubes out there. Sylvania kept their tube plants open longer than RCA.)...



I'd venture to say that the more time that passes since the American tube plants have shut down... Then the more abundant inaccurate information will become... And be taken as "gospel" by ignorant folks like me who don't know any better... Boy am I glad to know you guys!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> So, if I read that right... The 7189A is a suitable "upgrade" to an EL84, and can handle higher voltage, but... An EL84 may not work that well (or at all) as a replacement for a 7189A?
> 
> ... I may be reading that wrong. I am waay underslept and amp hopped up on energy drinks right now...



I'm not sure, either. I'm going to venture a guess and say that if you look at your tube socket, so long as you don't have anything connected to pin 1 or pin 6, you should be able to use the 7189A. Don't take this as a fact - it may be completely ass-backwards. Then, there's always the reliability (or lack thereof) of what you read online. I usually go by the rule that if you're not sure, don't.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can replace a 6BQ5/EL84 directly with a 7189, but not the other way around. 

The 7189A is wired differently internally, but it is still listed as a substitute for a 7189 (and 6BQ5/EL84).

The 7189 has the same "pin-out" as the 6BQ5/EL84. The 7198A will work in the same pin-out, if it has been determined to be safe to do so. Otherwise, some rewiring on the tube bases will be necessary.

The 6BQ5/EL84 works with plate voltage up to 300-330V(max).

The 7189 works with plate voltage up to 400V.

The 7189A works with plate voltage exceeding 400 volts.

7189's have always been called 6BQ5's on steroids. When used as a 6BQ5, they last forever, because they are designed for higher plate voltages.

Josh, you have the 7189A's, because they were the newer (better) tube at the time the Hi-Fi unit was made.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - New Strings*

Hey Marty,

I finally had an hour or so today to wail away on these two baby's with a fresh set of strings. Holy Crap what a sweet sound! Other than a few minutes on the clean channel (I always power-up and come off standby on the clean channel), I pretty much stayed on the lead channel for at least an hour. It's gonna be tough to try anther combination because this one just feels sooo good. There is a lot more definition of my notes with this setup. I actually was _playing_ my guitar on this channel (rolling back the volume to varying levels... using different pick-ups). On just my lead channel I can conjure up clean jangle, clean warm, ac/dc crunch, skynyrd's "gimme three steps", nazereth's "hair of the dog", and then moved on into Def Leppard, The Donna's, and some "Enter Sandman". This is a very sweet set-up. The highs are there, but they aren't harsh and ear wrecking. The mids are more pronounced than I'm used to, but actually they aren't overwhelming and lend themselves nicely to classic and heavy rock. The bass is pretty tight. I actually liked it plenty w/ out using the deep switch at all. I've never spent so much time just pulling great tones out of my high-gain channel before. I've always just set up my two or three channels and switched between them for my different tones.

Oh how sweet it is!

V1:

 V2:



I'll have to give it a good run through on the clean & crunch channel's too before I move on to a different combination. I have to be fair and try 'em in all their uses...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, I don't blame you at all with what you got right now. An RCA 7025 and an Amperex (Holland) 12AX7 with high gain capability. I was just telling old Solar Burn that sometimes a tube that reads 25/25 is the best bet for V1. It gives you that clean "clean." However, back it up with a rocket in V2 and no one can accuse you of not having a high gain amp. I am sending him some 7025's to try out as well as some more 12AX7's.

I might as well have you guys try them out and find what you like on your own.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - New Strings*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> I finally had an hour or so today to wail away on these two baby's with a fresh set of strings. Holy Crap what a sweet sound! Other than a few minutes on the clean channel (I always power-up and come off standby on the clean channel), I pretty much stayed on the lead channel for at least an hour. It's gonna be tough to try anther combination because this one just feels sooo good. There is a lot more definition of my notes with this setup. I actually was _playing_ my guitar on this channel (rolling back the volume to varying levels... using different pick-ups). On just my lead channel I can conjure up clean jangle, clean warm, ac/dc crunch, skynyrd's "gimme three steps", nazereth's "hair of the dog", and then moved on into Def Leppard, The Donna's, and some "Enter Sandman". This is a very sweet set-up. The highs are there, but they aren't harsh and ear wrecking. The mids are more pronounced than I'm used to, but actually they aren't overwhelming and lend themselves nicely to classic and heavy rock. The bass is pretty tight. I actually liked it plenty w/ out using the deep switch at all. I've never spent so much time just pulling great tones out of my high-gain channel before. I've always just set up my two or three channels and switched between them for my different tones.
> 
> Oh how sweet it is!
> 
> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll have to give it a good run through on the clean & crunch channel's too before I move on to a different combination. I have to be fair and try 'em in all their uses...



Looks like a great combo there in V1 & V2. I can't wait to try the 7025 in V1 along with the other ones I'll be demoing. Guitar rolling off into semi-cleans or clean on the lead channel and still get all those other gain textures is awesome! Better write down which ones you like the best in what positions. You gotta lotta tubes...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - New Strings*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... Guitar rolling off into semi-cleans or clean on the lead channel and still get all those other gain textures is awesome! Better write down which ones you like the best in what positions. You gotta lotta tubes...


... No kidding mate! Right now I am actually up to my ears (literally & figuratively ) in tubes to try out!

I think you're gonna like the 7025 & high gain experience. Marty definitely ain't talkin' out of his rear on that one. This combo just plain works! <Marty... You Da Man!>

Well... This rocker's gonna hit the hay, so ya'll have a good night, and we'll talk at ya later!


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - New Strings*



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... No kidding mate! Right now I am actually up to my ears (literally & figuratively ) in tubes to try out!
> 
> I think you're gonna like the 7025 & high gain experience. Marty definitely ain't talkin' out of his rear on that one. This combo just plain works! <Marty... You Da Man!>
> 
> Well... This rocker's gonna hit the hay, so ya'll have a good night, and we'll talk at ya later!



Haha! You should see what Marty is doing to me tube wise. Whoo Hoo! I'm going to be in the same boat as you, writing down them combination's...:eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

Got a few leads on some old stuff. I found an old RCA Victor 45 RPM record player. It's in a brown bakelite housing with no way to see the amp - seller asking $45. Found an RCA Victor radio that only has three tubes in it - the only useful one looks to be a Sylvania 12AT7 - asking $15. Found a Kodak Pageant 126 film projector with sound. Not a lot of info. on the web about this projector. I'm reasonably sure it's old enough that it's all tube - seller asking $32. Any of this sound like it's worth the $$$? 

On a side note, during my quest for tubes, my wife said "You know, my mother has one of those big console phonograph/radio combos, and an old portable record player." Now, I'm not sure about the date on any of this, but guessing, I'd say it's probably late 50's stuff. She said I could have the portable if she can find it, but she doesn't want to scrap the console, as it still works fine. I'm still going to see if she'll let me pull the back off and take a peek inside.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Got a few leads on some old stuff. I found an old RCA Victor 45 RPM record player. It's in a brown bakelite housing with no way to see the amp - seller asking $45. Found an RCA Victor radio that only has three tubes in it - the only useful one looks to be a Sylvania 12AT7 - asking $15. Found a Kodak Pageant 126 film projector with sound. Not a lot of info. on the web about this projector. I'm reasonably sure it's old enough that it's all tube - seller asking $32. Any of this sound like it's worth the $$$?
> 
> On a side note, during my quest for tubes, my wife said "You know, my mother has one of those big console phonograph/radio combos, and an old portable record player." Now, I'm not sure about the date on any of this, but guessing, I'd say it's probably late 50's stuff. She said I could have the portable if she can find it, but she doesn't want to scrap the console, as it still works fine. I'm still going to see if she'll let me pull the back off and take a peek inside.



CONSOLE...50's...ALL TUBE. Take the back off and at least tell us what is in it. Maybe it's a 6V6 amp. Some of the good one's had a bass amp and two treble amps. Tubes, tubes tubes. It's a shame all you can do is lookey, no touchey. (May be a mono amp.)

As far as that other stuff, without pictures and a description of the components, it's hard to say what they are worth. I know some projectors had a 5U4GB, (2) 6L6's and (2) 12AX7 tubes. That would just cover the $32 dollars if the tubes were all RCA or Tung-Sol and "good." The free portable is probably going to have a stereo (or is it mono?) single ended amp with 6BQ5's. These are old enough that they might be mono players. Stereo really didn't hit the scene until the early sixties.

The 45 RPM player might have a really odd power amp as many of them did. It might have one or two 12AX7's in it, but the power tubes could be almost anything. For $45 dollars, I'm buying five 12AX7's on EBAY, or two hot brand ones like Amperex or Mullard.

When this old stuff still works you hate to tear it up and the seller is wanting more money. It's best to find DOA gear and then all you are interested in is the tubes and usable parts. I've found many a good power tranny for 6BQ5 amps etc. Let me know what you find out in the big console and the portable. 

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I just got a 412 loaded with Greenbacks. Now I have to roll all those tubes again...not!


----------



## MartyStrat54

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

Over 6,000 views and almost 500 replies.
YOU GUYS ROCK!

If you have the time, go back and read some of the back pages. There is a lot of good stuff in this thread. All newcomers, you are welcome. We love to roll tubes and that includes the current production tubes as well as New Old Stock.

Besides preamp tubes questions, we will be glad to offer some insight on power tubes as well. Tubes are like buying speakers. What sounds good to me may sound lame to you. However, we can give you advice based on actual usage of many types of tubes. Helping you find your sound is what we do. The right tubes can produce a noticeable change in your amps sound.

Here we are, still going strong!

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

Since you brought up power tubes, I've been looking to get a pair of RFT/Siemens EL34's to try out. If any of you guys have used them, let me know what your impression was. I don't want to drop $100+ on a pair if they aren't going to offer a noticeable improvement. Right now, I'm using Groove Tubes EL34M Mullard copies, which sound good, but I've never tried NOS EL34's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Since you brought up power tubes, I've been looking to get a pair of RFT/Siemens EL34's to try out. If any of you guys have used them, let me know what your impression was. I don't want to drop $100+ on a pair if they aren't going to offer a noticeable improvement. Right now, I'm using Groove Tubes EL34M Mullard copies, which sound good, but I've never tried NOS EL34's.



This is what I told COOLJUK on page 15:

"Well I can tell you are a knowledgeable glass person yourself. I too use Siemens and have two 100 watt amps glassed with them. Siemens are a hell of a good deal if you want "real" EL34's. I guess right now I have twelve of them and eight are being used. Old, original TESLA's are a good buy for 34's."

*******************************************

The main thing about new vs NOS is that the NOS tubes were designed to handle over 800V on the plates. New tubes handle much less than that. What I hear from NOS 34's is a tighter bass and the overall audio spectrum is airy and clean sounding. $100 bucks is a good price on a pair if they test high. I just got a set of real Mullards for $99 and they are already in one of my 602's. That was a good deal. As long as the tubes test above average, don't be afraid to use NOS tubes. Most of my amps run on NOS glass. I've never been disappointed.

Another thing is what is called "EL34 Rattle." Some new EL34's are designed poorly and if you lightly shake the tube by the base, you will hear a rattle. NOS tubes generally do not do this, or if they do, it is at a minimum. I have bought new 34's before that rattled like crazy. I sent them back for a different set (They were Winged =C='s). You can do a little research on this and you will see what I mean. 

However, if you are used to running new tubes, your ears may have become used to "that sound." An NOS tube may or may not blow you away.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry, man. This thing is getting hard to keep up with. I totally missed that exchange. 

I don't know enough about old EL34's to know a good deal when I see one. There is a guy on eBay who regularly sells NOS Siemens/RFT EL34's in white boxes for around $100 a pair. I don't know if it's legal to post a link here... If you search eBay for "siemens el34", his are the ones that are $99.99 BIN. Do these look like the real deal? $100 sounds like a very fair price from what I've read.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me do some checking. I think I know who you are talking about.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well someone must have bought them, because I looked through all of the EL34 tubes. I did earmark several auctions that I am interested in so it wasn't a total loss. Check and see if he is still there. If so, let me know his user name.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Since you brought up power tubes, I've been looking to get a pair of RFT/Siemens EL34's to try out. If any of you guys have used them, let me know what your impression was. I don't want to drop $100+ on a pair if they aren't going to offer a noticeable improvement. Right now, I'm using Groove Tubes EL34M Mullard copies, which sound good, but I've never tried NOS EL34's.



I've got a super nice, matched pair of Siemens "Dimple Top" EL34's that I would part with. Email or PM me and we can discuss it further.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well someone must have bought them, because I looked through all of the EL34 tubes. I did earmark several auctions that I am interested in so it wasn't a total loss. Check and see if he is still there. If so, let me know his user name.
> 
> Marty



bmsanborn. Says he still has 3 sets at that BIN price.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, I don't blame you at all with what you got right now. An RCA 7025 and an Amperex (Holland) 12AX7 with high gain capability. I was just telling old Solar Burn that sometimes a tube that reads 25/25 is the best bet for V1. It gives you that clean "clean." However, back it up with a rocket in V2 and no one can accuse you of not having a high gain amp. I am sending him some 7025's to try out as well as some more 12AX7's.
> 
> I might as well have you guys try them out and find what you like on your own.
> 
> Marty



V1:

 V2:



I've gotta tell ya Marty... I am in love with this combination. It is just superb in every channel. 

The clean channel is just warm, sparkly goodness at every setting, in every pickup position. From jangly, to warm, to almost acoustic. Just a sweet, sweet tone.

The crunch channel IS classic rock. I can hit everything from clean to fairly high gain all on that channel. Setting the gain around 7 or 8 I get nice classic rock crunch and roll back the guitars volume for between that and clean. And oh so textured. Love it!

And of course you already know how I feel about how my lead channel responds w/ these tubes. Oh yeah!

So...

I know I'm digging this pairing. BIG TIME!

So for my next round of test subjects, what do you think... Keep the 7025 in V1 and start trying different 12AX7's in V2? Or keep the Dutch Treat in V2 and start trying different tubes in V1?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Keep that nice Amperex in V2 and try a stouter 7025 and see if that disrupts the clean channel. If not, get a feel for it and then try the crunch channel and see if you still have consistency with your crunch.

I've got to tell you that what you got right now is almost verbatim for what I'm running in all of my amps. That's the combo I came up with, a medium gain 7025 in V1 and a high gain in V2. That Amperex is one sweet tube. It has as many write ups and recognition as the RFT and the Tungsram. Right now, a Bugle Boy (Amperex) 12AX7 can easily go for $100 or more per tube. 

Those two tubes will give you consistent sound for a minimum of two years. I'd say more like three to four years. They don't make them like that anymore.

Also, wouldn't you say that the "new" Blackburn (Mullard) tubes have gone down the drain. Our emails weren't returned, the economy is bad. I say they aren't going to get out of the gate. You have to put your faith in NOS. I mean I know you're a believer. You've heard firsthand what a good set of tubes can do...right? 

Don't rip yourself apart with all those other tubes. If you found the clean cleans and the crunch and lead you really like, then go with it.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> bmsanborn. Says he still has 3 sets at that BIN price.



Well, I spent an hour on EBAY and I can't find this seller. I searched under his name in the tube section and it came up zero. You are going to have to put down the auction number so I can look it up that way. Sorry.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Keep that nice Amperex in V2 and try a stouter 7025 and see if that disrupts the clean channel. If not, get a feel for it and then try the crunch channel and see if you still have consistency with your crunch...



Sounds good. I'll have a go at that then. Either way... This first combo is the beez kneez. I'll be on that like a fly on crap if nothing else floats my boat!



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I've got to tell you that what you got right now is almost verbatim for what I'm running in all of my amps. That's the combo I came up with, a medium gain 7025 in V1 and a high gain in V2. That Amperex is one sweet tube. It has as many write ups and recognition as the RFT and the Tungsram. Right now, a Bugle Boy (Amperex) 12AX7 can easily go for $100 or more per tube.
> 
> Those two tubes will give you consistent sound for a minimum of two years. I'd say more like three to four years. They don't make them like that anymore...
> 
> ... You've heard firsthand what a good set of tubes can do...right?



It really is astounding the difference a good set of tubes makes. It is just night and day. It's like color verses black and white. Just amazing.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Also, wouldn't you say that the "new" Blackburn (Mullard) tubes have gone down the drain. Our emails weren't returned, the economy is bad. I say they aren't going to get out of the gate. You have to put your faith in NOS. I mean I know you're a believer. You've heard firsthand what a good set of tubes can do...right?



Yeah... I think our friends at the Blackburn plant are crashing before they leave the runway. Bummer too. I was looking forward to a current production tube that could stand above the crowd. Too bad.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Don't rip yourself apart with all those other tubes. If you found the clean cleans and the crunch and lead you really like, then go with it.



I'm not gonna stress over it, but I figure I'll try more pairings and see where it takes me. Maybe the holy grail is still out there. Who knows?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I spent an hour on EBAY and I can't find this seller. I searched under his name in the tube section and it came up zero. You are going to have to put down the auction number so I can look it up that way. Sorry.
> 
> Marty



Try this: eBay Seller: bmsanborn: Musical Instruments items on eBay.com


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Here's a dumb question... Is a 12AX7A the same as a 7025?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I found 1 dealer that has Anos RCA 12AX7A's and he wants $48 for one and they are used but test like new. Otherwise I'm not seeing much of a selection from my places as far as these go.



Is this something you're interested in? 12AX7A by Rca - Buy or Repair at PLCCenter


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Is this something you're interested in? 12AX7A by Rca - Buy or Repair at PLCCenter



Yes. Thanks Josh. Marty sent me some for now so I won't need any but its great to know where they are. Good work bro!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> 
> 
> I've gotta tell ya Marty... I am in love with this combination. It is just superb in every channel.



Saturday I will be roll'n these 2 in V1 & V2 as well. Its so cool to be able to say "I think I'll try that too" and pop them in. 

How is it that you and me have the same tubes...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Saturday I will be roll'n these 2 in V1 & V2 as well. Its so cool to be able to say "I think I'll try that too" and pop them in.
> 
> How is it that you and me have the same tubes...



Hey Solar! Cool to hear that you will be rolling these same tubes! I dig that kinda thing because it gives a great opportunity to hear others feed back of the same thing your trying (that's one reason why I dig that Marty has a TSL122 as well, it means I know we can get on the same page pretty quickly when we are comparing notes). Granted you running a different amp, but... I would imagine that the tonal qualities of these tubes should be pretty similar either way. Any hoo... I look forward to your thoughts on these and how they behave in your DSL. Plus... Knowing you like to boost w/ overdrive pedals, I am curious how these behave in that scenario as well. Keep us posted!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Knowing you like to boost w/ overdrive pedals, I am curious how these behave in that scenario as well. Keep us posted!



Ok. My Father-in-law just left the house for lunch with a friend. He lives with us by the way so I am limited to times I can crank at home. I got to give it a good goose and I have to say it sounded good with out a boost.

Then I kicked it with the Route 808! Holy Moly Spicolli...

Danger Will Robinson...ok enough of that.

I can't hear what did you say...? 

I can't put it into words right now. It just ripped! I'm surprised I don't have the cops at my door. At this volume my Greenbacks will be brok'n in real soon.

I have to say I prefer the DSL boosted slightly and I wasn't even using my fav pedal which is the CTO-1. 

Both channels were very good. Nice harmonics, musical feedback, nice mids and lows, guitar roll off natural, etc. Cleans sound full with a nice feel. These in V1 & V2 are a good combo. You know they sat well with my blues and Raunch & Roll.

So I agree these sound good. With them out of the way and marked with a + I can roll the other ones. I have 2 solid combos I like in the Marshall to compare to now.

1.V1-RFT
V2- RCAa

2.V1-7025
V2-Amperex

I'm just gonna roll the V1 & V2 positions for now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

HEY JOSH! Thanks for the heads up on the tube seller, "bmsanborn." I see what happened. I was looking and searching for him in the tube section under audio equipment and his listings were under musical instruments, guitar.

I've ran into him before. The lucky dog. He seems to always score huge lots of desirable tubes like RFT/Siemens EL34's. His prices are actually fair for a tube of this quality.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> HEY JOSH! Thanks for the heads up on the tube seller, "bmsanborn." I see what happened. I was looking and searching for him in the tube section under audio equipment and his listings were under musical instruments, guitar.
> 
> I've ran into him before. The lucky dog. He seems to always score huge lots of desirable tubes like RFT/Siemens EL34's. His prices are actually fair for a tube of this quality.
> 
> Marty



No problem. Actually sometimes finding a seller on ebay can be a pain, so I just googled the seller name, and wallah! There it was.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/6584-spinal-tap.html​


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Here's a dumb question... Is a 12AX7A the same as a 7025?
> 
> You know, I first want to say that I feel pleased about the fact that I had posted (maybe several times on several threads) a link called 12AX7. It was written by the guy who matches up all of the tubes for Mesa Boogie. Anyway, he came up with a formula for Marshall amps. "Try a 7025 in V1 and a high gain 12AX7 in V2." Wow! Who does that sound like. It's nice to know that I reached the same conclusions as this guy. Maybe we are on to something.
> 
> Anyway, the original 12AX7 was rated as follows:
> 
> This is the original version of this tube. The earliest ones were all made in the USA by the usual manufacturers like RCA, Sylvania, GE and Tung Sol. Very early ones have rather large size plates. The "plain" version without the "A" suffix can only be used in parallel filament circuits, not series.
> 
> The 12AX7A was rated as follows:
> 
> This later version can be used in series or parallel filament circuits. Many manufacturers produced plain 12AX7's well into the 60's and 70's, but I believe these are 12AX7A's marked 12AX7.
> 
> The 7025 was an "industrial" tube rated as follows:
> 
> This is the "hi fi" low noise version of the 12AX7. All other specifications are the same as 12AX7. Tubes marked with 12AX7 and 7025 both should be low noise, too.
> 
> Pay attention to that last sentence. I've found out that 12AX7's and 12AX7A's that are co-marked 7025, are in fact a low noise 7025's. The box/tube has to state both numbers.
> 
> Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> joshuaaewallen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a dumb question... Is a 12AX7A the same as a 7025?
> 
> You know, I first want to say that I feel pleased about the fact that I had posted (maybe several times on several threads) a link called 12AX7. It was written by the guy who matches up all of the tubes for Mesa Boogie. Anyway, he came up with a formula for Marshall amps. "Try a 7025 in V1 and a high gain 12AX7 in V2." Wow! Who does that sound like. It's nice to know that I reached the same conclusions as this guy. Maybe we are on to something.
> 
> Anyway, the original 12AX7 was rated as follows:
> 
> This is the original version of this tube. The earliest ones were all made in the USA by the usual manufacturers like RCA, Sylvania, GE and Tung Sol. Very early ones have rather large size plates. The "plain" version without the "A" suffix can only be used in parallel filament circuits, not series.
> 
> The 12AX7A was rated as follows:
> 
> This later version can be used in series or parallel filament circuits. Many manufacturers produced plain 12AX7's well into the 60's and 70's, but I believe these are 12AX7A's marked 12AX7.
> 
> The 7025 was an "industrial" tube rated as follows:
> 
> This is the "hi fi" low noise version of the 12AX7. All other specifications are the same as 12AX7. Tubes marked with 12AX7 and 7025 both should be low noise, too.
> 
> Pay attention to that last sentence. I've found out that 12AX7's and 12AX7A's that are co-marked 7025, are in fact a low noise 7025's. The box/tube has to state both numbers.
> 
> Marty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great info especially about the 7025.
Click to expand...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... The 7025 was an "industrial" tube rated as follows:
> 
> This is the "hi fi" low noise version of the 12AX7. All other specifications are the same as 12AX7. Tubes marked with 12AX7 and 7025 both should be low noise, too.
> 
> Pay attention to that last sentence. I've found out that 12AX7's and 12AX7A's that are co-marked 7025, are in fact a low noise 7025's. The box/tube has to state both numbers.
> 
> Marty



Wow, Thanks Marty. Essentially identifying tubes accurately can be somewhat tricky. One really has to make sure he's seeing _all _of the numbers. In essence, I have two "Made In Germany" 12AX7A's, and they are basically "low noise" 12AX7's. But the RCA (Lindall) tube you sent over that is marked on the tube as both 12AX7A & 7025 is an actual 7025. Correct?


----------



## MartyStrat54

My 700th post on the forum!



Whoo! Whoo! (Mellow out Marty..."Okay.")

Yeah Josh, those Lindal tubes were sold on EBAY as 7025's. As I told you, those are actually RCA tubes. Lindal didn't make tubes, but they sure did buy a lot and relabeled them.

From EBAY:

UP FOR BIDS IS A NOS/NIB TRIO OF LINDAL 7025 12AX7A TUBES. THESE TUBES HAVE A HALO GETTER AND COPPER GRID POSTS. 
TUBES WERE TESTED ON THE CALIBRATED TV-7/U TUBE TESTER WHERE THE MINIMUM IS 32/32 THESE TUBES TESTED AT 58/56, 48/50, 52/54.

Hope all is going well.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> My 700th post on the forum!
> 
> 
> 
> Whoo! Whoo! (Mellow out Marty..."Okay.")
> 
> Yeah Josh, those Lindal tubes were sold on EBAY as 7025's. As I told you, those are actually RCA tubes. Lindal didn't make tubes, but they sure did buy a lot and relabeled them.
> 
> From EBAY:
> 
> UP FOR BIDS IS A NOS/NIB TRIO OF LINDAL 7025 12AX7A TUBES. THESE TUBES HAVE A HALO GETTER AND COPPER GRID POSTS.
> TUBES WERE TESTED ON THE CALIBRATED TV-7/U TUBE TESTER WHERE THE MINIMUM IS 32/32 THESE TUBES TESTED AT 58/56, 48/50, 52/54.
> 
> Hope all is going well.
> 
> Marty



 Congratulations on being a MEGA-POSTER on The Marshall Forum Marty! You Da Man!  

You've certainly added a lot of insightful posts to this forum. Thanks Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I guess I am a "Mega Man"...man. Sure is quiet out there. Almost like a whole lot of tube rollin' is going on. I'm sure Joe has his calculator and slide rule out to make note of all the different configurations. That, or a wide open amp.



Yeah, I'm waiting to hear from the repair shop. A couple of my babies had to go in. I guess they all need to go sometime (except maybe an old 800).

:Ohno::Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I guess I am a "Mega Man"...man. Sure is quiet out there. Almost like a whole lot of tube rollin' is going on. I'm sure Joe has his calculator and slide rule out to make note of all the different configurations. That, or a wide open amp.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm waiting to hear from the repair shop. A couple of my babies had to go in. I guess they all need to go sometime (except maybe an old 800).
> 
> :Ohno::Ohno:



For frigg'n sure bros! Drool, sweat and slobber too. I'm sure I'll be buy'n this time around hehe. SOOOO many tubes to roll...burnt fingers...

Hope the news isn't dire from the shop. Keep us posted.


----------



## Jesstaa

Alright everybody,
hope nobody cares if I jump in here.

I've looked through the first 3 pages of this thing pretty thoroughly, but then realised I couldn't be bothered reading through the next 15.

So anyway, I was wondering, Marty, and the rest of you uber-tubers, could I get some info on my JCM 900 4100, I'm looking for a nice combination for old school hotted up thrash and british metal, the kinda thing people used modded plexi's and 800's for. I don't wanna get those tones exactly (Or I'd just have my amp modded) but I wanna get close, so then I can figure my own tone out with some pedals.

Currently I have some high gain JJ 12ax7's in there, which are apparently 104/105 and 110/110 for the balanced tube in P.I position, which is V1 in the 4100's isn't it? And I haven't actually been able to test these yet (I ordered a KT77 retube kit, but my bias circuit was funky and it wouldn't accept anything other than 6L6's, and KT77's should've worked). 

Also, will the slightly different sizes associated with different tubes/N.O.S different brands have any problems when it comes to the tube covers, which are currently pretty tight on my 12AX7's and cover each tube.

Edit: I'm gonna need tubes which are available in Australia/able to be shipped here.

Double edit: If somebody could direct me to the best N.O.S tube dealer for Australia, that'd be great, cause I also have 2 old valve radios I'd like to retube, and the receiver tubes aren't made anymore, and I think all of the 5Y3 rectifier tubes made today are different, also I doubt they've made those mini radio tubes (12ax7 size) tubes since the 70's.

Cheers guys,
Jesse.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's a shame you didn't jump on board sooner. There is a lot of interesting sound tests performed with various USA and European tubes. That and a little humor thrown in. 

I will only be able to answer some on your questions. First off, how clean does your clean sound need to be? If it can be a little gritty, then I would suggest a medium to high gain 12AX7 in V1. If you need a clean "clean," then I would recommend a 7025 (NOS) in V1. V2 I would recommend a high gain 12AX7 such as a Mullard long plate 12AX7. You have a high gain tube (110/110), but the JJ's are a darker sounding tube and you will want to get away from that for your sound.

What makes this tough is that we are basically moving away from current production tubes and are using NOS tubes. Granted, we may still use current production tubes in V3 and V4, as they have less of an impact on the gain and tone. BTW, V1 will be the tube located the farthest distance from the power tubes and power transformer. V1 is the most sensitive tube in the amp. Anyway, it is hard for me to say what tubes to recommend when you live in Australia. Most of the big online tube stores will ship there, so that's not a problem, but you are limited to what they have. They do sell NOS tubes, but they are expensive.

As stated, the JJ tubes you are running tend to be a little dark sounding. Not what you want for your sound. I would recommend a high gain Tung-Sol short plate 12AX7 in V1 and a Mullard long plate in V2 and then use your current V3 and the 110/110 tube in V4. Note: The PI tube does not need to be high gain or perfectly matched, but since you have it, try it out. You may want to do a little tweaking with these two tubes as well. Hopefully you will get the Tung-Sol and it will be at least 110/110. It is a much brighter tube and sounds smoother overall. That will result in a more crunchier sound.

The NOS tubes have no problem accepting the shields. The only tube I've had problems with are the Sovteks. If the JJ's fit, the Tung-Sol and Mullard will fit.

Another 900 with 6L6's? Yeah you could have spared yourself some anguish if you had read some of my other posts (different threads) about swapping power tubes. It can be done, but you have to change the value of the final bias resistor to get into the bias range of the KT77's. If you still have the tubes you can get a tech to do this. Do you have a tech in your area?

American/Canadian Tube Sellers that will ship worldwide.

Welcome to TubeDepot.com!

thetubestore.com Audio and vacuum tubes for your amplifier.

https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm

Australian Company

Kableflags: The Cable Management Safety Product for Home and the Workplace (Call them. They state they sell audio tubes.)

Marty


----------



## Jesstaa

I don't really need much of a clean, although it's nice to have (And currently it's pretty amazing, but I plan on using a different amp and having an A/B/Y box for cleans) and the 4100 only has 3 pre amp tubes.

Edit: Yeah, I have a tech in the area, that's where my amp is currently. I took it in there when trying to switch tubes because it wouldn't stay biased, and I wanted to make sure that nothing was damaged in it (Cause I bought it second hand), I should be getting it back today, but I don't plan on ever taking it back there, they've had it for like 5 weeks just to figure out that I should leave 6L6's in there for now. Bloody useless.

Double Edit: How would I determine the date of an Phillips miniwatt 6V6? I have one in an old radio and it's still doing just fine, and I'm wondering how rare it is, it appears to have no getter (Unless the weird silver ring around the bottom is the getter, but it seems too light of a colour to be getter) it also appears to be painted black (I'd guess it was burnt out, but it's very neat, and the tube still works fine)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Three-RCA-12BZ7-Tubes-New-in-Boxes_W0QQitemZ270410452942QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item3ef5b80fce&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1234|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:50

That could be a good score, if you get back on in time. Seller will refund if they're shit, and you have a tube tester to test them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of 6V6's were treated with what was called a smoke top. Nice little edge down at the bottom of the tube. There is a getter, you just can't see it. The only way you could tell how old it is, is if all of the original labeling was still on the tube. There would be a date code somewhere on the tube. It is hard to make any money with just one tube. Most buyers have single-ended amps and they want a close match pair.

I sold two pairs of 6V6's on EBAY. Both pairs were really nice and I lost my ass selling them. The market is soft on certain tubes right now and has been that way for over six months.

Ebay would be the only way to sell it since you just have one.

Marty


----------



## jamesbreese

Good grief. That was the longest post on this forum I have ever been through, but all very good and interesting info! Nice pictures too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jamesbreese said:


> Good grief. That was the longest post on this forum I have ever been through, but all very good and interesting info! Nice pictures too.



Yeah, we've been running so long now that we had to hire a gaffer and a couple of staff photographers. They do good work.

I see you are from Tulsa. I was born and raised in Blackwell, Oklahoma which is just south of the Kansas border on I-35. I've been to Tulsa many, many times and was just there several months ago. I have a college friend who plays in a cover band and they have released some original material as well.

If you read all of this thread, power to you, but at least you are caught up.

Marty


----------



## jamesbreese

I know where your talking about... I drive up the 35 to Wichita from time to time and that one of the gas stops. Small town.

Whats your buddy's band name?


----------



## MartyStrat54

jamesbreese said:


> I know where your talking about... I drive up the 35 to Wichita from time to time and that one of the gas stops. Small town.
> 
> Whats your buddy's band name?



It used to be a lot bigger in the 70's. The EPA shut down the biggest employer.

My buddies band is called the Brandon Clark Band. They play almost every night.

David "Dave" Duval (guitar) is my buddy. We were in a short lived band back in the early 80's. Here is a link:

Brandon Clark on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

If you Google or Dogpile "Brandon Clark" you will get a boat load of sites.

I graduated from high school in 1972, but didn't go to college until 1982. I played in the jazz band, stage band and a special group called the Roustabouts. I was ten years older than everybody else. I had better equipment and a 1969 big block Corvette. Ah, the good ole days.

http://www.north-ok.edu/roustabouts

Those are bad pictures, but what it is basically is a production styled song and dance act with a live band. Very fast paced. I was there in 1982-84. At the time it was a two-year college, now it is a four year. The Roustabouts also have a MySpace account that is okay. 

Anyway, have a good one.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Solarburn, has finished rolling the ten tubes I sent him. He seemed to be quite jacked up over his selections. I'm sure he won't be disappointed.

I haven't been quiet. I have just been buying EL34 and 12AX7 tubes on EBAY as usual. Bought me a quad of RFT EL34's. Thought about putting them in the TSL100.

I scored six 12AX7's and four 7025's made by Philips/Amperex of Canada. I lost out on eight of these, but I can't win them all.

Tried to win some fat bottle EL34 Sylvania's and lost out on that one too.

Right now, I have some auctions coming up and I will be placing my bid soon.

Other news, one of the two techs has been on vacation, so my amps haven't even been looked at yet. Just so you know. Hopefully, I will know what's up by Monday or Tuesday.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

Marty,

If you get anymore of the 12AX7A, Raytheon, 1960's Medium Black Plate's keep me in mind. I wouldn't mind hav'n a couple more of those.

I pretty much figured out what sounded good in my set up but will continue to roll my new inventory as I play along. It takes quite awhile to find the best order/combination of tubes working together. I think I got some gems to work with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm sure that you did end up with some good torpedoes. You have enough tubes to keep you going for several birthdays. How many did you buy? Eight?

The neat thing about tubes is that a different guitar will affect the gain of the tube. V1 is hooked up in line with the guitar and if you have hot ceramic pickups like my Explorer's 500T's, it will blow the front end of an amp clean out. (Well maybe not as much as an EMG81, LOL!). You get my point. You may say, "That tube is lame (in V1)." Then you get a humbucker plugged into it and it is like, "Holy Hogwash, Batman!" I love my Strat and it sounds really sweet, but my Schecter and my Gibson rip stage one of the preamp circuit up. It's like when I told Josh to not audition the tubes with dead strings. He took my advice and he was chopping wood with the 7025 and the ICBM Amperex.

Oh, I just got some more tubes. Brand new Joint Army/Navy Sylvania's. NIB and NOS. Never been used. Four tubes. Winning bid, $51.00. Who says NOS are too expensive? Not me.

I read a thread, but I can't remember what it was called. I think it was someone asking about preamp tubes in an 800. One of the members posted that Tung-Sol is having trouble with the Tung-Sol (short plate) in the V3 position. It can't handle the voltage. I told you guys in the past that most current production AX7's are running at or above their rated plate voltage. Apparently this is the case here and the Tung-Sol is failing. Another reason to use NOS tubes. They "can" handle the plate voltage. They were "made" to better specifications with better materials. I told you guys about how tube manufacturer's were always trying to outdo the competition. This alone made for some very high quality tubes. I told you how it wasn't about price in 1962. Well, it's all about price with current production tubes and to keep profits up, the tubes are...well cheap. 

When was the last time you've seen any specifications on any current production tube? I've never seen any...ever. Why do you think that is? If you have a 1965 Tube Manual and you look up the specs on a 12AX7, every tube manufacturer was expected to meet (or exceed) the stated specifications. You can Google all day and not find any specs at all on new tubes. They don't want you to know about their failure rate. They don't want you to know that their tube can take about half the plate voltage as a 45 year old RCA! Wouldn't you think with today's equipment and materials that a better tube could be made? Hell no. Take a look at Blackburn which is the former Mullard U.K. They were going to start selling high quality AX7's all made on sixty year old equipment. Why? Because it does the job better than anything that anyone has come up with. If anyone is going to come out with a consistently good tube, they will be made on original equipment, using original techniques and the same materials. Period! Trying funky manufacturing techniques results in a funky tube. Hopefully the economy will get better and Blackburn will pursue making tubes. Even if they are twice the price as say an EH or a (fake) Mullard, it would still be a good deal and I would have peace of mind knowing that someone was actually making a good tube again.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I'm sure that you did end up with some good torpedoes. You have enough tubes to keep you going for several birthdays. How many did you buy? Eight?
> 
> The neat thing about tubes is that a different guitar will affect the gain of the tube. V1 is hooked up in line with the guitar and if you have hot ceramic pickups like my Explorer's 500T's, it will blow the front end of an amp clean out. (Well maybe not as much as an EMG81, LOL!). You get my point. You may say, "That tube is lame (in V1)." Then you get a humbucker plugged into it and it is like, "Holy Hogwash, Batman!" I love my Strat and it sounds really sweet, but my Schecter and my Gibson rip stage one of the preamp circuit up. It's like when I told Josh to not audition the tubes with dead strings. He took my advice and he was chopping wood with the 7025 and the ICBM Amperex.
> 
> Oh, I just got some more tubes. Brand new Joint Army/Navy Sylvania's. NIB and NOS. Never been used. Four tubes. Winning bid, $51.00. Who says NOS are too expensive? Not me.
> 
> I read a thread, but I can't remember what it was called. I think it was someone asking about preamp tubes in an 800. One of the members posted that Tung-Sol is having trouble with the Tung-Sol (short plate) in the V3 position. It can't handle the voltage. I told you guys in the past that most current production AX7's are running at or above their rated plate voltage. Apparently this is the case here and the Tung-Sol is failing. Another reason to use NOS tubes. They "can" handle the plate voltage. They were "made" to better specifications with better materials. I told you guys about how tube manufacturer's were always trying to outdo the competition. This alone made for some very high quality tubes. I told you how it wasn't about price in 1962. Well, it's all about price with current production tubes and to keep profits up, the tubes are...well cheap.
> 
> When was the last time you've seen any specifications on any current production tube? I've never seen any...ever. Why do you think that is? If you have a 1965 Tube Manual and you look up the specs on a 12AX7, every tube manufacturer was expected to meet (or exceed) the stated specifications. You can Google all day and not find any specs at all on new tubes. They don't want you to know about their failure rate. They don't want you to know that their tube can take about half the plate voltage as a 45 year old RCA! Wouldn't you think with today's equipment and materials that a better tube could be made? Hell no. Take a look at Blackburn which is the former Mullard U.K. They were going to start selling high quality AX7's all made on sixty year old equipment. Why? Because it does the job better than anything that anyone has come up with. If anyone is going to come out with a consistently good tube, they will be made on original equipment, using original techniques and the same materials. Period! Trying funky manufacturing techniques results in a funky tube. Hopefully the economy will get better and Blackburn will pursue making tubes. Even if they are twice the price as say an EH or a (fake) Mullard, it would still be a good deal and I would have peace of mind knowing that someone was actually making a good tube again.



I've read many times to watch certain new production preamp tubes in particular slots(cathode follower)because they can't handle the voltages. They are running right at the edge of capacity, no room for error. I've read other tube experts saying its a crap shoot buying NP preamp tubes and using them in your amps. I didn't think it was that bad but that is the reputation new production tubes have garnered for those who work closely with them. The ones that sell them or test production runs.

There are only a couple new production preamp tubes I like anyways but there are more NOS I'm finding really sound good. Its a relief knowing you have a tube that will handle whatever slot you put it in. That it sounds great, has been tested so you know its good. I have to say I am getting them for a great price too. How am I losing in this? I'm not. Its for me and what I want tone wise. I'm doing the work and judging the results good or bad. Its the process of seeking good tone and I'm being rewarded. Otherwise it would be just another waste of time and money. I don't like wasting money. I don't have money "to" waste.

I say use what you like and what works for you. Me...I'm playing around with the NOS and finding some pretty cool dynamics, touch and response. I have to say it is actually fun hearing the differences and finding the tube or tubes that sound good in my amps and make them more musical to my ears. After that its up to me to play it to where the music actually sounds good hehe.

I'm having a good time and enjoy playing my stuff.


----------



## Jesstaa

I managed to find a half decent arrangement with the tubes I currently have (2 National tubes and 3 JJs) not quite sure which tubes are which in a 900, but going with the Phase inverter as V3, I got a JJ in V1, a National in V2 and a balanced JJ in V3, it's still got a strong tone, but it's brightened up a bit with the National, with any more than 1 national in the amp, it's kinda flat sounding.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just an FYI post. I know I have already wrote about it, but this is for any new member who happens to drop in. Apparently, Tung-Sol is not holding up in the V3 position on Marshall amps (V2 on earlier Marshall amps). This is the tone stack/cathode follower circuit. I'd advise not running a Tung-Sol in this slot. 

Forum thread:

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/6596-these-pre-amp-valves-my-2203-a.html

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

I've actually been running a Tung-Sol RI in V3 and V4 occasionally. I haven't left it in there for long at a time. I've been playing with those two sockets, and my amp seems to sound a little better with the Tung-Sol or a Sovtek 12AX7WA in V3. What exactly happens if this tube fails? Is there a danger of harming the amp, or just a loss or degradation of the signal?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've actually been running a Tung-Sol RI in V3 and V4 occasionally. I haven't left it in there for long at a time. I've been playing with those two sockets, and my amp seems to sound a little better with the Tung-Sol or a Sovtek 12AX7WA in V3. What exactly happens if this tube fails? Is there a danger of harming the amp, or just a loss or degradation of the signal?



A preamp tube failing is not going to do any damage to the amp. When they fail they could blow a fuse if they short out. If they open it won't blow the fuse.

Yeah, the Tung-Sol is actually a pretty good sounding tube. It's too bad that it can't handle all of the various positions and the different circuit loads and voltages that those positions present.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS versus Current Production

In 1959, these were the specs all RCA tubes were manufactured by.

1.Vacuum/Air Pressure-1/000,000,000 that of atmospheric pressure at sea level. 
2.Plate-Diameter gauged to 0.0002 inch.
3.Grids-Diameters measured to 0.0001 inch.
4.Cathode coating-Weight variation less than 0.00007 oz.
5.Grid Wire-Diameter varies less than 0.00009 inch.
6.Cathode-Sleeve Wall-Approximately 0.002 inch thick.
7.Heater Wire-Diameter varies less than 0.00002 inch.
8.Glass Bulb-Inspected under polarized light for strains.

This was standard business in 1959. Do you think your Sovtek can match this?

Marty


----------



## Jesstaa

You'd honestly think that current production tubes would be of better quality, from all the advances in technology. But all this stuff you're pulling up, Marty, is pushing my want for N.O.S tubes further. 

When I get a job and replace the trannys/caps in my amp. I'm gonna buy some N.O.S tubes.

What are the best makes for nice smooth metal overdrive?

Edit: This thread really needs to be stickied. Perfect read for those looking to improve their sound. And I haven't even looked at all the pages.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is yet another link that explains the different tones of 12AX7's and then has (high) pricing for rare and not so rare tubes to salivate over.

Another tube broker:

12AX7 Tubes in Stock

Marty


----------



## Jesstaa

Wow, I can imagine investing in N.O.S tubes would be a good move.


----------



## RiverRatt

OK, bear with me if this rambles. I just put in 19 hours at the office staring at a computer monitor, then I come home and sit in front of this one. Thank God for cheap beer and benzodiazepam. I can't remember the last time I drank Pabst Blue Ribbon, but it has to have been in college. Anyway, since I'll probably be out of it in a half hour or so, I thought I'd share the latest roll. Since I got my newly tested tubes back from Marty, my good ol' RCA side-getters are back in V1 and V2. I've been trying to get V3 and V4 dialed in, but everything I put in there sounded like crap. I had ended up with a Tung-Sol RI 12AX7 in V3 (living on the edge), and some form of Russian 7025 in V4 and I knew the amp should be sounding a lot better than it did - the tone was dominated by this harsh treble sound. Finally it dawned on me... with all this preamp rolling, I'd been neglecting the big boys. I hooked my Sperry up to the test points, and one of my fairly new GTEL34M's was cruising at around 32mV and the other was up around 39mV. I got them back to around 36.5 each, which seems to be the sweet spot, and the magic was back! I'm always telling people if their DSL isn't sounding right, check the bias, and here I go like an idiot, swapping preamp tubes every 5 minutes and wondering why it ain't happening for me. Now I'm good to go until that Tung-Sol craps out, but I think I have 2 or 3 others lying around somewhere. See you guys in a day or two.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*The Perfect Preamp Tubes Meet The Perfect Power Tube Bias?*



RiverRatt said:


> ... I thought I'd share the latest roll. Since I got my newly tested tubes back from Marty, my good ol' RCA side-getters are back in V1 and V2. I've been trying to get V3 and V4 dialed in, but everything I put in there sounded like crap. I had ended up with a Tung-Sol RI 12AX7 in V3 (living on the edge), and some form of Russian 7025 in V4 and I knew the amp should be sounding a lot better than it did - the tone was dominated by this harsh treble sound. Finally it dawned on me... with all this preamp rolling, I'd been neglecting the big boys. I hooked my Sperry up to the test points, and one of my fairly new GTEL34M's was cruising at around 32mV and the other was up around 39mV. I got them back to around 36.5 each, which seems to be the sweet spot, and the magic was back! I'm always telling people if their DSL isn't sounding right, check the bias, and here I go like an idiot, swapping preamp tubes every 5 minutes and wondering why it ain't happening for me. Now I'm good to go until that Tung-Sol craps out...



Power Tube bias _definitely_ effects the tone. For my TSL, Marshall recommends 90mV... I've found a pre-amp combination (thanks to Marty) that I really love, and before moving on to another variation of pre-amp tubes, I decided to experiment a wee bit and see how my power tube bias will effect the sound that I know I already love. Personally, I've found that as good as it sounds when biased as recommended, and having the pre-amp / power amp tube combination that I have, it actually sounds even better when I run it with the bias even lower... say around 85-86mV. I think it's cool how all these seemingly small things have such a noticable effect on my tone.

              

PS. Let us know how those Tungsols work out for you. I have some currents production Tungsols and haven't used them yet... Not sure where to stick them at this point!


----------



## solarburn

*Re: The Perfect Preamp Tubes Meet The Perfect Power Tube Bias?*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Power Tube bias _definitely_ effects the tone. For my TSL, Marshall recommends 90mV... I've found a pre-amp combination (thanks to Marty) that I really love, and before moving on to another variation of pre-amp tubes, I decided to experiment a wee bit and see how my power tube bias will effect the sound that I know I already love. Personally, I've found that as good as it sounds when biased as recommended, and having the pre-amp / power amp tube combination that I have, it actually sounds even better when I run it with the bias even lower... say around 85-86mV. I think it's cool how all these seemingly small things have such a noticable effect on my tone.
> 
> 
> 
> PS. Let us know how those Tungsols work out for you. I have some currents production Tungsols and haven't used them yet... Not sure where to stick them at this point!



Plop those Tung Sols in V1 or V2 or both just to see. Then you will prolly go right back to your NOS combo hehe. I like the Tungy's and the Mullard RI's but I can tell the NOS we have are bettering them tone wise to my ears. Playing blues and rock dynamics are really important to me. Not so much when I play metal. Just a wall of pound serves there and the NP's can do. The Chinese 9th generations are good for metal.

That being said I would run those 2 NP I mentioned in V1 or V2 with no worries. I have already. Sound wise I like em' for what I like to play.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like new production tubes in V3 and V4 - the Mullard and Raytheon 12AT7's I have sound great there as well, but the new tubes seem to have a bit more presence or maybe they are a little more aggressive. It's hard to explain. I'm mainly just worried about Marty's info about Tung-Sols failing in V3. 

There's a guy on the Les Paul forum who knows his stuff who insists that the PI tube can't have any affect on the tone of the amp. My experience seems to say otherwise. I can hear a difference and feel a different response from the amp with phase inverters that have different gain factors, or even between different makes of the same value. 

Josh, I hear what you're saying about the bias setting. I've always thought that the JCM 2000 EL34 amps are biased way too hot at Marshall's recommended setting. Like I said, My DSL50 likes to be around 36-37mV instead of the 45mV that Marshall uses. One of these days I've got to open up my amp and measure the plate voltage. I suspect that 45mV is going to read somewhere between 80-90%.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I like new production tubes in V3 and V4 - the Mullard and Raytheon 12AT7's I have sound great there as well, but the new tubes seem to have a bit more presence or maybe they are a little more aggressive. It's hard to explain. I'm mainly just worried about Marty's info about Tung-Sols failing in V3.
> 
> There's a guy on the Les Paul forum who knows his stuff who insists that the PI tube can't have any affect on the tone of the amp. My experience seems to say otherwise. I can hear a difference and feel a different response from the amp with phase inverters that have different gain factors, or even between different makes of the same value.
> 
> Josh, I hear what you're saying about the bias setting. I've always thought that the JCM 2000 EL34 amps are biased way too hot at Marshall's recommended setting. Like I said, My DSL50 likes to be around 36-37mV instead of the 45mV that Marshall uses. One of these days I've got to open up my amp and measure the plate voltage. I suspect that 45mV is going to read somewhere between 80-90%.



In order to get a bias of 45mv the PV would have to be at 380 running at 70% dissipation which is hot. My DSL has varied from 450 to 475 PV depending on the power tubes. I run my bias the same as you and even at the higher PV's there is only one number difference in bias. Its between 36 and 38 at 70%. Definitely under the 45mv recommended. If guys like to run em' that hot, burn em' up. I don't.

V1 and V2 have the most effect on tone. I don't hear much of a change from V3 on. On my Night Train you can definitely hear the effect on tone the PI has when changing tubes there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Depending on the design of the amp, the PI tube can have an impact on the tone of the amp. Generally, in a Marshall design, the impact is small, but nonetheless, it makes an audible difference. Also, the type of PI tube you use will affect the tone simply by the gain factor of the PI tube used. A lot of Fenders were stock with a 12AT7. I've read articles where people were actually using 12AU7's as a PI in their Marshall amps. If you remember, there was an old timer (no, not me) who looked for help on this thread. He was having problems with an old Marshall amp. Turns out it had a 12AU7 in the PI. No wonder the amp sounded like a cracker box. 

People do weird things in an attempt to find their tone. Like a 12AY7 in V1 and a 12AT7 in V2 and a 12AX7 in V3 and a 12AT7 in V4. I say, if you are doing this you shouldn't be playing a Marshall, maybe not even a Fender. That's just plain whacky, but that's a tube line-up a guy posted online. He claimed it gave incredible smooth tone. (And that was all it could do. Probably wouldn't overdrive if you hooked a Tube Screamer up to it.)

The other thing I wanted to discuss is this situation regarding Tung-Sol. I don't mean to cause a panick, but I am passing on what I have found out and info other members know about. The fact is, once you've tried NOS tubes, it would be really hard to go back using NP, especially in V1 and V2. I mean if I have an RCA 7025 in V1 and a Raytheon BP in V2 and then a couple of sweet tubes for V3 and V4, it would be difficult to say, "Ah the hell with it. I'm going to put Chinese NP tubes in all four positions." I just don't see that happening to anyone that has gotten hooked on using the real McCoy's.

As Joe said, "It's nice having a tube that you know will work in any position." These old NOS tubes just blow away the specs on a new tube and the main thing is they can handle so much more power on the plates. I mean I have looked for over a year for specifications on "any" brand of NP tubes and it just ain't out there.

Well I got all of my tubes in, fourteen in all. Six, Philips-Amperex 12AX7's, four, Philips-Amperex 7025's and four, JAN Sylvania 12AX7's. There were a few bottle rockets, but they all were good, strong tubes. Looking forward to trying some of them JAN's as a V3 and V4 tubes. The way they tested, that would be a good slot for them.

Really anxious to test the P-A 7025's. Two were real stout. Never had them before. If they are anything like the Amperex 12AX7's tone wise, they ought to be a killer V1.

In closing, the same thing applies to NP EL34 tubes. NOS tubes are just flat out better. Some people don't know this, but I post it all of the time. That is, a NOS EL34 can handle plate voltage exceeding 800 volts. I wonder what my Winged =C='s can handle? I'm running one of my 602's with real xf3 Mullards. The other has real RFT EL34's. My TSL122 had Winged =C='s, but I just spent $200 for a set of NOS RFT's for it. It is in the shop, but I left the tubes with them to install.

Have you ever taken a cheap EL34 and held it by the base and tapped it against you open palm? It sounds like a whole bunch of shit is loose in there. A well built EL34 will hardly make a sound if any. Makes you wonder doesn't it? I hear all of these horror stories on the forum were an EL34 turned itself into a ball of flame, or burned up without any warning. When all was said and done, it wasn't anything with the amp. The tube was defective. A NP tube (like a JJ which I'm seeing fail more and more).

I know you can spend 600 dollars or more getting your transformers upgraded. For 300 to 350 dollars (100 watt amp) you can upgrade your power and preamp tubes and you will hear the difference. The difference between the Winged =C='s and the RFT's was huge. Better, tighter bass than before. In the clean channel the amp was almost dead silent and it rang like chimes. In the crunch channel, it was tight and controlled. I was thinking about getting some choke mods done, but after hearing my 602's, I may pass on doing it. 

I don't want all my amps sounding the same and I don't think it's possible even if you could make everything equal. I like it that one amp (with certain speakers) sounds a certain way and another amp with different speakers and different pre and power tubes has its own sound. It puts a different smile on your face when you plug in and play.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I need 2 RFT EL34's now. Maybe one of these days... Actually soon I will get my sag back if all works out. If not my shits tight so to speak hehe. I had no idea a choke would take that away from me. I know the difference now because I have had my amp with a choke and without. For what I play I liked it more without the choke. We'll see what my tech can do for me.

Who the heck is charging $600 for an OT upgrade Marty? Mine was $200 installed. Crazy bastids out there...

You made some great tube buys. Some of those power tubes can go up to $350 and more for a set at online dealers.

http://www.kcanostubes.com/products/293/NOS-Mullard-EL34-XF2-with-Double-Getters-Matched-Pair.htm


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I found that info about RFT EL34's and it turned out to be on the forum. However, while it did scare me for a moment, I read the rest of the thread and the real truth was posted by a reputable person.

You have to be very careful using a variac because of those heater voltages, I would highly recommend using a separate filament transformer that is run off the 120V line. You don't want to change the filament supply by more than 10% either way so if you have anywhere between 5.7V and 6.9V you should be alright but if you are out of this range you will drastically reduce the life of your tubes and most likely your tone will suffer. Those RFT's should be able to handle 500V on the plate no problem, the EL34 is rated at 800V on the plate, while alot of new tubes can't really handle this the older ones will and I've had good luck with the new production JJ's which I have run at over 600V without any problems. The problem with going to high on the voltage is not that the tube is run harder its that it will internally short between elements due to the high positive potential. As long as your bias is set correctly a tube run at 500V won't be worked any harder than one at 400V.


-Matt at Triodeelectronics.com

So the bottom line is what I have previously posted and that is a NOS EL34 can handle 800 volts on the plate.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I found that info about RFT EL34's and it turned out to be on the forum. However, while it did scare me for a moment, I read the rest of the thread and the real truth was posted by a reputable person.
> 
> You have to be very careful using a variac because of those heater voltages, I would highly recommend using a separate filament transformer that is run off the 120V line. You don't want to change the filament supply by more than 10% either way so if you have anywhere between 5.7V and 6.9V you should be alright but if you are out of this range you will drastically reduce the life of your tubes and most likely your tone will suffer. Those RFT's should be able to handle 500V on the plate no problem, the EL34 is rated at 800V on the plate, while alot of new tubes can't really handle this the older ones will and I've had good luck with the new production JJ's which I have run at over 600V without any problems. The problem with going to high on the voltage is not that the tube is run harder its that it will internally short between elements due to the high positive potential. As long as your bias is set correctly a tube run at 500V won't be worked any harder than one at 400V.
> 
> 
> -Matt at Triodeelectronics.com
> 
> So the bottom line is what I have previously posted and that is a NOS EL34 can handle 800 volts on the plate.
> 
> Marty





> http://www.kcanostubes.com/products/...tched-Pair.htm



... I guess this makes me wonder what, in the long run, those of us who can't afford $400 for a pair of power tubes will wind up having to do? That's half what my entire amp cost me! Know what ah mean, Vern?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the problem is these online tube brokers are just plain crazy on their prices, because they know that someone with the $$$ will buy from them. I can't afford $400 for a quad of power tubes either. That's why I buy on EBAY. Is there more risk? I don't think so, because any time that I've had a problem the seller refunded my money. 

What sucks is that back in the 60's and even the 70's, if you had a tube amp, you could buy any brand of tube you wanted cheap. Now all of these special tubes are priced at $80 apiece. I went to that website you posted and looked up the cost on a Raytheon BP. They wanted $80 and were out of stock. So Joe got a great deal from me. 

Most of the tubes I buy end up costing me $15 to $24 each. That's a lot cheaper than $40 to $125. The same goes for power tubes. If you really want some nice EL34's, you have to watch several auctions and hope that one of them isn't getting a lot of activity. These are the auctions I like and the one's I make a great deal on. It's just a shame the little buggers wear out, but at least the NOS power tubes last longer than a set of JJ's.

Marty


----------



## rockinr0ll

Marty how do you like Groove Tubes? I have read bad reviews on them but I love them. It turned a really shitty sounding amp into a beast.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Marty how do you like Groove Tubes? I have read bad reviews on them but I love them. It turned a really shitty sounding amp into a beast.



Actually, Groove Tubes in association with their Chinese suppliers have come up with some really nice tubes. I feel they offer the best 6L6 right now. They are noted for supplying some very high gain 12AX7's and I have used them in some of my amps. I know that I prefer them over JJ's and Sovteks. 

I'm glad you have had good luck with them, because it all boils down to what sounds good to "you."

I've been using NOS tubes for so long now, it's hard for me to use anything else. As you may have read here in this thread, a lot of current production 12AX7 tubes can't handle the plate voltage of say the phase inverter position. With NOS tubes, you can put them in any position of any amp and they will work. That's a big plus and they sound really good too.

Marty


----------



## rockinr0ll

I love the pre-amp tubes they make. They are called GT-12AX7- "Older style Russian type, strong tone but a little edgy". All of the pre-amp tubes came with a number (mine are 6 or 9 I can't really tell which one it is) but they really sing. I have read that the numbers are rated for style but I think that they just match if you get the numbers right. The Gold Series is the ones that I bought and they sound a lot nicer then the Tung-Sol IMO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The numbers refer to what "generation" the tube is. Right now the 9th generation Chinese tube is the best they have to offer. 6, 7 and 8 are still currently being sold as many of these are relabeled by Ruby, Mesa and Groove Tubes.

Right now Tung-Sol is having failure problems in certain amps due to plate voltage exceeding what the tube can handle.

Marty


----------



## Petest4

Hi...

Anyone ever used soldano 12AX7A in their TSLs? I have some sitting here from my sp77 preamp I sold a while ago.. I believe they are made in China. Worth a try?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I found that info about RFT EL34's and it turned out to be on the forum. However, while it did scare me for a moment, I read the rest of the thread and the real truth was posted by a reputable person.
> 
> You have to be very careful using a variac because of those heater voltages, I would highly recommend using a separate filament transformer that is run off the 120V line. You don't want to change the filament supply by more than 10% either way so if you have anywhere between 5.7V and 6.9V you should be alright but if you are out of this range you will drastically reduce the life of your tubes and most likely your tone will suffer. Those RFT's should be able to handle 500V on the plate no problem, the EL34 is rated at 800V on the plate, while alot of new tubes can't really handle this the older ones will and I've had good luck with the new production JJ's which I have run at over 600V without any problems. The problem with going to high on the voltage is not that the tube is run harder its that it will internally short between elements due to the high positive potential. As long as your bias is set correctly a tube run at 500V won't be worked any harder than one at 400V.
> 
> 
> -Matt at Triodeelectronics.com
> 
> So the bottom line is what I have previously posted and that is a NOS EL34 can handle 800 volts on the plate.
> 
> Marty



Cool. Thanks for the info. I just woke up. You guys have been busy here.

I pm'd back where I had seen that said about the RFT's. Just wasn't any info to why? Looks like the RFT's are within range of actually buying compared to some of those others...when buying at online dealers. I would do it once on the RFT's just to see. The others are out of my buying zone hehe.

And thanks for the great deals man. I saw that price on the Ratheon BP's and I was like shiat! Some of the other tubes I bought too. I wouldn't have tried them out at those prices. Just would have taken a pass.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The numbers refer to what "generation" the tube is. Right now the 9th generation Chinese tube is the best they have to offer. 6, 7 and 8 are still currently being sold as many of these are relabeled by Ruby, Mesa and Groove Tubes.
> 
> Right now Tung-Sol is having failure problems in certain amps due to plate voltage exceeding what the tube can handle.
> 
> Marty



Yep. This on the Chinese tubes. I thought they were decent in my DSL. Alot of the NP preamp tubes I used I didn't have in more than a few months. As far as longevity I can't really say how long they last.

I was recently reading, I can't remember the website, that tubes with gold pins are no better performing than tubes with regular pins. The gold pins just don't tarnish. Anybody know one way or the other on this? Just curious.


----------



## Jesstaa

What are the chinese tubes mentioned under "Trust Your Ears and Ask Your Amp Tech" in this article
What Every Player Should Know about NOS Tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Petest4 said:


> Hi...
> 
> Anyone ever used soldano 12AX7A in their TSLs? I have some sitting here from my sp77 preamp I sold a while ago.. I believe they are made in China. Worth a try?



If you use any kind of tube amp, then you'll want to hang on to any 12AX7 regardless of where they are made. It's always good to have some spares handy.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Here is a site (in German) about RFT EL34 tubes and then it shows all the other tubes they made that were relabeled. There is quite a few of them.

(From one of my wholesalers)
I did indeed receive the tubes without labels or logos (in sealed boxes of 100 pieces each), as they were manufactured for export and eventual rebranding by other tube companies or OEMs. Here is a site (in German) that shows a myriad of relabeled EL34s, all from the RFT plant and identical to the tubes you purchased: Die Geschichte der EL 34 - Seite 4 - in der DDR von RFT produzierte EL34

Marty


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## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a site (in German) about RFT EL34 tubes and then it shows all the other tubes they made that were relabeled... ... Die Geschichte der EL 34 - Seite 4 - in der DDR von RFT produzierte EL34...
> 
> Marty



Dude... Where do find all this stuff? Really?! You are amazing! Rock on Marty!!!


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## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Dude... Where do find all this stuff? Really?! You are amazing! Rock on Marty!!!



Did you click on any of the other links down at the bottom of the page? They show even more relabeled RFT EL34's. One link shows production figures where manufacturing peaked in 1966 and then literally died in 1972. That means most of the RFT EL34's for sale are at least 37 years old and probably older. 

One of the reasons I posted this was the fact that there are some brands mentioned that overshadow RFT. Brands like Telefunken, Rohen and Valvo to name a few. If you don't know this info, you could be spending big bucks on a quad of Telefunkens, but they are really RFT's. You aren't gaining any difference in tube tone. The Telefunkens and the RFT's are the same. The difference being price. You can get four RFT's for less than half what a quad of Telefunkens would cost. 

I see people get into a frenzy on EBAY all of the time over certain tubes and the bidders are completely clueless. They are making their buying decisions based on brand name and not who actually made the tube.

There is so much tube lore I don't know about, but I wished I did. Things like when RCA decided to turn all of their tube production over to Japan. How many companies made tubes for RCA? I have two Mullards and they are labeled RCA. Who all made black plates and what other companies relabeled them. (One is Baldwin Organ. They used Sylvania gray plates and Raytheon gray and black plates in thousands of organs. Some of these organs contained over 30 12AX7's.) I'd like to know more about JAN and JRC tubes and their connection with the military. Some say they are really great sounding tubes that are very well built (like for combo's). These tubes were made for the military into the 80's. Wow! When did the 12AX7A become an industrial/commercial tube (6681). I think it was 1975. 

Yeah, I would like to know all the in's and out's of the tube business. All the secrets that very few people knew about. Which design was the best? What was the biggest seller (and therefore more available now)? It would be sweet to know all of that stuff. It would give you the tools to be the perfect tube buyer.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I won another EBAY auction for 12, 12AX7's. One was a NOS/NIB GE and there were three Mullards and some Baldwin/Raytheon and a couple of NEC tubes, one a rare 12AD7 which is like a 7025, but electrically there is some difference. I set a price that I would pay per unit and got it for less than half of that. All 12 were bought for $111.50, or $9.30 each. Ahh, I think I made a good buy. What do you think?

Even though some of them test on the low side of good, this was still a smokin' deal.

Marty


----------



## rockinr0ll

Very nice! I would eventually like to get some of those in my arsenal.


----------



## RiverRatt

I guess I'm going to have to sell a handful of pedals and try to score a pair of RFT EL34's and maybe a RFT 12AX7. I think my GTEL34M's are about to crap out, and all I have in reserve are a pair of Svetlanas and a quad of Sovtek EL34G's. I'd really hoped the GT's would last longer than this, but I'm having trouble with them drifting a lot. 
Problem is, my anniversary is next week and the wife is talking about a weekend trip maybe at the end of July, and she just got a new kid-hauler, so my tube purchases keep getting pushed back. Hopefully I've got enough junk lying around that I should be able to swing it. I may throw up some junk, er, treasures in the classifieds soon.


----------



## zimske

woohoo finally!
week worth of waiting and here! they! are!

ruby el34b str (it was a tie between them and tung sols el34b, then doug untied it for me)
tung sol 12ax7
pentalab 12ax7b
sovtek 12ax7lps


can't wait to plug them in my 2203. oh oh.
guys, thanks for everything, will let you know how it works as soon as humanly possible. 



[one more thing, however... i've just called my tech and he told me it is not necessary to bias the amp becaus tubes are matched? i've phoned another tech and he told me the same. wtf? EVERYWHERE i've been to read about biasing says that when changing the output tubes, bias is a must. mustly must. wtf with these two techs?. :/]


update: called two more techs which say, of course, bias is a must. 
wtf with these four techs?


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> woohoo finally!
> week worth of waiting and here! they! are!
> 
> ruby el34b str (it was a tie between them and tung sols el34b, then doug untied it for me)
> tung sol 12ax7
> pentalab 12ax7b
> sovtek 12ax7lps
> 
> 
> can't wait to plug them in. oh oh.
> guys, thanks for everything, will let you know how it works as soon as humanly possible.
> 
> 
> 
> [one more thing, however... i've just called my tech and he told me it is not necessary to bias the amp becaus tubes are matched? i've phoned another tech and he told me the same. wtf? EVERYWHERE i've been to read about biasing says that when changing the output tubes, bias is a must. mustly must. wtf with these two techs?. :/]



They're boneheads, I'm sorry to inform you of that.

Yes, the power tubes need to be biased. It's nice that they are matched, that just means that they will bias easier. Why these guys told you that is beyond comprehension, unless they wanted your amp to blow so they would get the work.

Glad you got your tubes. What position were you going to use the Tung-Sol in? Don't use it in V3. They been failing in that position. What amp are these tubes going into? If it has 4 preamp tubes, then use caution with the TS in V3.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cool. Thanks for the info. I just woke up. You guys have been busy here.
> 
> I pm'd back where I had seen that said about the RFT's. Just wasn't any info to why? Looks like the RFT's are within range of actually buying compared to some of those others...when buying at online dealers. I would do it once on the RFT's just to see. The others are out of my buying zone hehe.
> 
> And thanks for the great deals man. I saw that price on the Ratheon BP's and I was like shiat! Some of the other tubes I bought too. I wouldn't have tried them out at those prices. Just would have taken a pass.



Got word back from one of my wholesalers. Seems that these EL34's that can only take a certain amount (450V) of voltage are in fact "B-stock" tubes. Here is the response I received.

Hi Marty,

The RFT EL34 meets all EL34 specifications, including the maximum plate voltage of 800V. While I match the tubes at 500V, I put in excess of 600V on the plates as part of my shorts test. Around 5% of the RFTs fail this test, but test good otherwise. Rather than write these tubes off as rejects, perhaps some vendors prefer to sell as much of their stock as possible -- hence the 450V caveat. In any event, your tubes carry a full 90 day warranty, irrespective of the plate voltage of your amp (assuming, of course, that the tubes were correctly biased upon installation.)

Thanks again!

So, tube sellers who are wanting to sell each and every tube are doing so by telling the buyer, "Hey, don't go over 450." Most guitar amps are right at and just above 450. The TSL60,1 and 2 run at 500V. What is happening is the tube is shorting out internally. Not a good thing and very hard on an output tranny and it leaves a question on whether the tube will fail at 400V? There's no way I would buy a quad of these. I'm sure they are discounted, but that doesn't matter to me.

Well, I guess this solves the mystery. It was just a case of the "B-stock" did it.


----------



## zimske

Yeah, I figured as much, and what's making it worse, they seem to be respectable lot in amp tech business. Got to them through recommendations of some serious fellas and they drop this load of bull just like that.

Anyway.

It's '84 jcm800 2203, and I planned on placing TS in V1, Penta in V2 and use Sovtek for PI. If I remember well, that's somewhere along the line of what solarburn was talking way back.

Now, Doug told me he can grade any 12ax7 for lower or higher gain. Okay. That's cool, actually. But, is something similar even remotely possible with output tubes? Or do you get them as they are and that's that? Uh, I should just stop trying to understand those two guys. Ngh.



MartyStrat54 said:


> They're boneheads, I'm sorry to inform you of that.
> 
> Yes, the power tubes need to be biased. It's nice that they are matched, that just means that they will bias easier. Why these guys told you that is beyond comprehension, unless they wanted your amp to blow so they would get the work.
> 
> Glad you got your tubes. What position were you going to use the Tung-Sol in? Don't use it in V3. They been failing in that position. What amp are these tubes going into? If it has 4 preamp tubes, then use caution with the TS in V3.
> 
> Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think you are cool with that lineup of 12AX7's.

As far as power tubes go, there are several factors that affect them. One is plate resistance. They also have a window in which they will bias properly. Some fall at the low end of the window and others at the high end and some in the middle. This gives what is called a cool, medium or hot tube. The transconductance of the tube is its strength. When you measure a tube on a tube tester you are measuring transconductance. Generally you want the tubes to read over 90 and you want them to be somewhat close so that they will bias properly. Say you have a set that is 92-90-94-91. That is a nice set and will bias up nicely. If you have a set like 89-97-83-86, you will be able to bias the tubes but one or more of the tubes will be passing more current than its counterpart and that means one or more of the tubes will wear out before the others. Most good tube sellers match their power tubes to within 3 per cent of each other and that is plenty close.

So as far as power tubes go, each tube has a certain amount of resistance, a certain window in regard to how it will bias and transconductance or strength.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> woohoo finally!
> week worth of waiting and here! they! are!
> 
> ruby el34b str (it was a tie between them and tung sols el34b, then doug untied it for me)
> tung sol 12ax7
> pentalab 12ax7b
> sovtek 12ax7lps
> 
> 
> can't wait to plug them in my 2203. oh oh.
> guys, thanks for everything, will let you know how it works as soon as humanly possible.
> 
> 
> [one more thing, however... i've just called my tech and he told me it is not necessary to bias the amp becaus tubes are matched? i've phoned another tech and he told me the same. wtf? EVERYWHERE i've been to read about biasing says that when changing the output tubes, bias is a must. mustly must. wtf with these two techs?. :/]
> 
> 
> update: called two more techs which say, of course, bias is a must.
> wtf with these four techs?



Yes bias those tubes. Always do so when changing them. Now the guys who say to bias out number the boneheads telling you don't.

Doug suggested the LPS in the PI right? You really don't want that tube in a cathode follower(V3 in my amp)either. In the PI position it is a great tube.

How many preamp tubes in the 2203?

Edit: I see I am not writing fast enough..hehe.


----------



## solarburn

As far as the power tubes having different grades of distortion, it means that they can have earlier or later break up time. Doug's offer this with their power tubes as a choice. He labels them early distortion, average distortion and late distortion. It has nothing to do with having more gain. Just "when" the gain happens.

This means you can get more clean headroom from the tubes graded as later distortion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Sun Burn, I left you a PM.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Sun Burn, I left you a PM.
> 
> Marty



I left you one back!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> As far as the power tubes having different grades of distortion, it means that they can have earlier or later break up times. Doug's offer this with their power tubes as a choice. He labels them early distortion, average distortion and late distortion. It has nothing to do with having more gain. Just "when" the gain happens.
> 
> This means you can get more clean headroom from the tubes graded as later distortion.



I got into a discussion about this and I'm not all that crazy about it. Several companies offer tube ratings like this and I think it is more of a sales gimmick than anything else. Tubes grouped with the same or similar electrical characteristics is one thing, but saying one tube has a "soft" vacuum and another has a "hard" is a little funky as far as I'm concerned. A soft vacuum means the tube didn't get a proper vacuum pulled on it in the first place and as far as I'm concerned, it should be a reject. Soft vacuum tubes are hard on the inner workings of the tube and prone to early failure.

Note: Did you ever hear of RCA, Mullard or Amperex (to name a few) selling power tubes with soft or hard vacuums? No! They pulled a consistent vacuum on their entire run. If it was such a great idea, why didn't any of the big tube makers advertise this? Because it wasn't a good idea.

Just my input. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got into a discussion about this and I'm not all that crazy about it. Several companies offer tube ratings like this and I think it is more of a sales gimmick than anything else. Tubes grouped with the same or similar electrical characteristics is one thing, but saying one tube has a "soft" vacuum and another has a "hard" is a little funky as far as I'm concerned. A soft vacuum means the tube didn't get a proper vacuum pulled on it in the first place and as far as I'm concerned, it should be a reject. Soft vacuum tubes are hard on the inner workings of the tube and prone to early failure.
> 
> Note: Did you ever hear of RCA, Mullard or Amperex (to name a few) selling power tubes with soft or hard vacuums? No! They pulled a consistent vacuum on their entire run. If it was such a great idea, why didn't any of the big tube makers advertise this? Because it wasn't a good idea.
> 
> Just my input. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
> 
> Marty



I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.

Just order the average distortion which is the norm.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.
> 
> Just order the average distortion which is the norm.



Well if you have good preamp tubes and a good amp and a good guitar with decent pickups, you should be able to get that mutha screaming like a banshee!

Give me a set of stock NOS EL34's and they will blow away anything that is made right now.

Marty-I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you have good preamp tubes and a good amp and a good guitar with decent pickups, you should be able to get that mutha screaming like a banshee!
> 
> Give me a set of stock NOS EL34's and they will blow away anything that is made right now.
> 
> Marty-I'm thinkin', I'm thinkin'.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I guess this sort of turned into:

"Power Tubes?-Who, What, When, Where, Why and How?"

I also found out that you can post a whole bunch of stuff when Solar Burn is off work and online.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Have you ever wondered how many tubes JJ (and others like Sovtek) throws away each month? I'll bet it is a huge number. All the tubes that didn't make it. Then the tubes go to the next level of quality control and more fail. Supposedly they do a long burn in period and more tubes fail. They end up with several thousand tubes to sell each month. Out of these a huge percentage fail once they are put in a guitar amp and subjected to the rigors of being moved on and off a stage and put in a van and driving 100 miles on a bumpy road to get back home.

I'm reading about more and more tube failures and it is the tube that failed, not something wrong with the amp that made the tube fail. 

I'll be keeping my eyes open on the other tube forums I visit and will post anything that is significant.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Have you ever wondered how many tubes JJ (and others like Sovtek) throws away each month? I'll bet it is a huge number. All the tubes that didn't make it. Then the tubes go to the next level of quality control and more fail. Supposedly they do a long burn in period and more tubes fail. They end up with several thousand tubes to sell each month. Out of these a huge percentage fail once they are put in a guitar amp and subjected to the rigors of being moved on and off a stage and put in a van and driving 100 miles on a bumpy road to get back home.
> 
> I'm reading about more and more tube failures and it is the tube that failed, not something wrong with the amp that made the tube fail.
> 
> I'll be keeping my eyes open on the other tube forums I visit and will post anything that is significant.
> 
> Marty



If you go over to HCAF and post you like JJ tubes you will find yourself a minority. Exact opposite of here. Now I won't bash tubes any more cause if you like JJ's to me that is a preference and I have to respect that. I just say now I prefer other tubes. 

The one thing that is important to note is what Marty is saying about tube failure. That has nothing to do with how they sound. JJ's have a bad track record in many circles around the net.

Well bro's I gots to go to work. I'll talk at you all later!


----------



## zimske

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I don't buy into it either and I am certainly not going to waste the money to find out if there really is a difference. Sure doesn't appear to be a good idea.
> 
> Just order the average distortion which is the norm.



that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall. 


anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:

12AV7 AMPEREX
12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
12AU7WA GE
12AT7WA GE

this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
seems a bit much, don't you think?


----------



## solarburn

zimske said:


> that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall.
> 
> 
> anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:
> 
> 12AV7 AMPEREX
> 12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
> 12AU7WA GE
> 12AT7WA GE
> 
> this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
> seems a bit much, don't you think?



We're talking about the power tubes being sold with early distortion, average distortion and late distortion options. Not buying into that.

Lower gain preamp tubes are a good way to alter the gain if that is what you want. Nothing wrong with doing it with the right tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We're talking about the power tubes being sold with early distortion, average distortion and late distortion options. Not buying into that.
> 
> Lower gain preamp tubes are a good way to alter the gain if that is what you want. Nothing wrong with doing it with the right tubes.



We had a discussion about this in another thread (or forum?) about the rating system that Groove Tubes and others use. I believe that the general consensus was that if you bias the tubes to the same percentage of max dissipation, there is no difference in the tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> We had a discussion about this in another thread (or forum?) about the rating system that Groove Tubes and others use. I believe that the general consensus was that if you bias the tubes to the same percentage of max dissipation, there is no difference in the tubes.



First off, when you are a company that "buys" all of the tubes you sell, you are going to have a marketing department. These are the guys who come up with all of these zany gimmicks to get novice tube buyers to bite. "Smooth distortion, hard distortion." "Soft vacuum, hard vacuum." "Pick your sound only when you buy from us." Good grief! It puts a knot in my throat.

As I said ^^^up above^^^, I wouldn't want a power tube with a soft vacuum. You're asking for trouble. People are so easily persuaded into believing what some retailer has to say. "Best sound," "Early overdrive," "Fat sustain." Sounds good doesn't it? If you know little about tubes, chances are you will fall prey to this sort of marketing hype. The sad fact is that none of their tubes will come close to beating NOS tubes.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> that was exactly what i did. if you guys remember, i started talking about low gain option, and i think you told me to try 12at7 or something. then i thought about it for a while, lower or higher gain, but i figured, like, "why? you have a marshall, so have it then." so i have a marshall.
> 
> 
> anyway, a guy here is selling some preamp tubes, says they are brand new:
> 
> 12AV7 AMPEREX
> 12AX7 RAYTHEON JAN 5755
> 12AU7WA GE
> 12AT7WA GE
> 
> this amperex is some $18, the others are around $13...
> seems a bit much, don't you think?



Is the Raytheon supposed to be 5751? It makes a big difference. I've never heard of a 5755. Anyway, these are all low to medium gain twin triodes. A 5751 or a 12AT7 in V1 will knock the gain down and the amp will have more clean headroom aka more Fenderish sounding. Some people like that and I say if you do, buy a Fender. Marshall's were made for tonal onslaught and your amp deserves the right tubes. Try to buy several high gain USA NOS tubes like 12AX7A's. RCA, Sylvania, Raytheon, GE, etc. These are the tubes that will turn your amp around. Expect to pay around $20 to $25 each. Try to get the best tube you can afford, as it will last longer. Try to find a tube that is being sold as NOS. If you don't have a tube tester or access to one, then you are going to have to rely on the seller's reputation. 

I suggest staying away from these tubes unless the Raytheon is a 12AX7.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, while you're answering questions, I have a couple that I've been wondering about.
First, what effect does V2 have on the green channel on my DSL? I really like the 12BZ7 in V2, but it seems that the green channel has a little more of an edge than normal with this setup. Am I imagining this, or is the BZ7 coloring it a little? If so, do you have a recommendation that would work well in this setup?

Second, and this is probably the really stupid one, does the PI affect the bias of the power tubes, especially using a lower gain tube like a 12AT7?

I'll have to catch the reply tomorrow at work. My PC at home has been zapped by W32.Virut.CF for like the third time this year. Time for another re-install, as that thing corrupts so many system files that it's virtually impossible to recover from. Damned kids visiting porn sites, probably.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, while you're answering questions, I have a couple that I've been wondering about.
> First, what effect does V2 have on the green channel on my DSL? I really like the 12BZ7 in V2, but it seems that the green channel has a little more of an edge than normal with this setup. Am I imagining this, or is the BZ7 coloring it a little? If so, do you have a recommendation that would work well in this setup?
> 
> Second, and this is probably the really stupid one, does the PI affect the bias of the power tubes, especially using a lower gain tube like a 12AT7?
> 
> I'll have to catch the reply tomorrow at work. My PC at home has been zapped by W32.Virut.CF for like the third time this year. Time for another re-install, as that thing corrupts so many system files that it's virtually impossible to recover from. Damned kids visiting porn sites, probably.



Well Ratt, I'm the perfect candidate for looking at porn, 54 and single. However, I stay away from that shit, it will eat your brains up. I hope your kids respect you and will not go to virus prone sites. Okay enough about that. 

First off, the way a Marshall works is that from the input it goes into the first preamp circuit and uses "one half" of the triode (12AX7). It then goes into the second preamp stage through "one half" of the next triode. A lot of people are under the impression that the signal goes through both sides of the tube. This is untrue, as it uses one half of V1 and V2 for the Green Channel. The other half is for your Crunch Channel. 

A 12BZ7 will always provide more gain than a 12AX7. This has been discussed many times in this forum. A 12BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. However, some guitar amp circuits do not like a 12BZ7. Excessive gain sometimes isn't a good thing. I sent Josh a 35-35 tube and he sent it back. He went with a 7025 in V1 and an Amperex 12AX7 in V2. So far, based on my experiments and those by Joe and Josh, the 7025 is the key to having great overall Marshall sound. Pairing a 7025 up with a high gain (30-30) tube is what everyone is settling on, so there must be something to it.

I think the 12BZ7 may meet the expectations of a certain number of players who focus on a narrow band of tone requirements. The 12AX7 is to me a more musical sounding tube. The 12BZ7 I feel is going to make your clean channel a little gritty sounding. How do you rectify this? The only way would be to put a lesser gain tube in V1. This will clean up your Green Channel. However, you will have to make some adjustments to get your Crunch Channel sounding the way you like it, but it can be done.

The PI does not affect the bias of the power tubes. If it did, we all would be catching hell for tube rolling. Do you remember the guy I talked about recently? He had a Marshall and someone played a good one on him. It had two 12AU7's in it. One in V1 and the other in the PI. It was like putting a kink in a garden hose, the signal was choked off. I always wonder why some people will put a 12AU7 in a Marshall amp? I can handle a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a tube with a gain of 17 to 19. What's that going to get you?

Well I hope I answered your questions. If not post them and I will try to get to them.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

For all of you who are new to this forum, I would like to point out something regarding the grading of tubes.

On this thread, most of the tubes used are tested and graded on a B and K 707 Dyna Jet tube tester. Fully calibrated and converted to a solid state power supply for less ripple in the DC.

Unlike power tubes that are graded between 70 and 120, this tester tests 12AX7 (and all similar tubes) in a different fashion. If the tube tests on both triodes (A and B) at 22-22, this represents a nominal tube.

22-22 can be roughly converted into 80-80.

A tube with a grading of 30-30 is a high gain tube and can be converted into 110-110.

So as you can see, a small change in the actual test score results in a larger, conventional score.

I just brought this up, because tube tester all read differently depending on the make and model. Readers of this thread are seeing numbers like 26-28 or 31-29 and I just wanted to clarify what these numbers mean. If I had a different tester, they would all test differently.

And for all of you first time viewers, a 12AX7 is actually two circuits inside the same glass tube. Ideally they would be matched, but in the real world only a small percentage are. When a 12AX7 is tested there are two readings. One is for Triode A and the other is for Triode B. That is why you will see two numbers like 25-27. 

It's nice to have these two numbers close, but it is not necessary for them to be identical. A Marshall amp is designed to compensate for unbalanced preamp tubes. Trying to find a set of perfectly matched tubes is a waste of time and money. This goes for the phase inverter position as well. It used to be that everyone would put a matched tube in this position. I'm just letting you know that it is not necessary.

I pulled the stock tubes out of two, new Marshall amps and tested them. They were all unbalanced and in one case the "new" tube didn't pass the tube test. The tubes in both PI positions were unbalanced. So Marshall is agreeing with what I am telling you.

If you are just starting out with a tube amp, or you are an old pro, it pays to learn as much as possible about your amp. What we have found out here on this thread is that the right preamp tubes have a huge impact on your tone. In other words, it is basically a "mod." I think changing speakers and preamp tubes are the two easiest "mods" a player can perform on his rig.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... First off, the way a Marshall works is that from the input it goes into the first preamp circuit and uses "one half" of the triode (12AX7). It then goes into the second preamp stage through "one half" of the next triode. A lot of people are under the impression that the signal goes through both sides of the tube. This is untrue, as *it uses one half of V1 and V2 for the Green Channel. The other half is for your Crunch Channe*l...



Ratt is running a DSL, what's the breakdown on how the tube is utilized in a three channel amp like the TSL? Is the amp using "triode-A" for the clean, and "triode-B" for the Crunch _and_ lead channels... Or is it set up different in this scenario? 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... A 12BZ7 will always provide more gain than a 12AX7. This has been discussed many times in this forum. A 12BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. However, some guitar amp circuits do not like a 12BZ7. Excessive gain sometimes isn't a good thing. I sent Josh a 35-35 tube and he sent it back. He went with a 7025 in V1 and an Amperex 12AX7 in V2. So far, based on my experiments and those by Joe and Josh, the 7025 is the key to having great overall Marshall sound. Pairing a 7025 up with a high gain (30-30) tube is what everyone is settling on, so there must be something to it...



As much as I hate to be agreeable... ... The 7025 mixed w/ a high gain 12AX7 _really_ covers _a lot_ of musical ground (ranging from pristine and sparkly to melt your ear drums high gain. Marty is right on here.

There was a lot about the 12BZ7 that I really loved... Unfortunately it just wasn't the best match for my combo amp. I'd love to have a amp/cab setup too so that I could have an amp running the 12BZ7. It really is a sweet tube.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... It was like putting a kink in a garden hose...



Solar & I refer to this as "neutering" your amp.



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... the signal was choked off. I always wonder why some people will put a 12AU7 in a Marshall amp? I can handle a 12AT7 or a 5751, but not a tube with a gain of 17 to 19. What's that going to get you?



I have a 12AU7 that I pulled from an old TV... For kicks and grins I did try it out in different positions in my amp. Not all horrible, but not Marshall, and it did neuter the amp significantly. Again... Marty is right on the money.



joshuaaewallen said:


> Yup. The Tube Store is a great info resource. And yup... I'd have to agree that the 12AU7 was way too much neutering. It didn't just snip the berries, but took the whole twig too!



There's my two cents for the day!

So... Whaddaya think Marty? Any input on the TSL's use of tubes (i.e. what half of what tube is used for what)?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know Josh. I'm not 100 per cent sure. Maybe someone else will be able to help us out. I do know that the TSL is different from the DSL, whereas the crunch and lead channels share a lot of the same circuitry. However, if I remember right, the TSL relies on V3 in the lead channel. In other words, I think that the signal path is V1, V2 and V3 using the B side of the tubes for gain and then the signal dumps into V4.

When the TSL came out it was heralded for its outstanding sustain and I think this was due to the fact that three 12AX7's were in the signal chain in the Lead Mode. 

The TSL is a complicated amp and as I said, I'm not 100 per cent sure about this. It would be hard to find an answer to this online unless you knew the exact place to look. Maybe you could start a thread and ask what the signal path of a TSL is? I'm sure some of the electronics engineers would be able to answer this question.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOSH. I started a thread to see if I could get the real answer to this. I know that there are quite a few engineers and tube amp repairmen who probably know the answer to this. I'd like to know myself. It would help us better understand why certain tubes work best in certain position. 

Now I know V1 and V2 are a no-brainer, but I would like to know what each side of V3 is doing in a TSL. Does one side provide extra gain and the other side operate the tone stack/cathode follower? If this is the case, then you would want to put a tube like a 24-28 in V3. Do you see why I said this? The 28 would be on the gain side and you would want that elevated. 24 would be a good number for the tone stack. So yes, this is a good question and maybe by tomorrow, we will have an answer.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

This thread rules for usable info that you can put to work right off.

Here's my fav Marshall mods taking into account that my fiddle is set up:

1. Tubes(NOS)
2. Speakers(K100's/GB's/V30's)
3. Boost pedal(not for more gain but enhancement)

This thread and the info in it have given me the ability to get the best tones(IMO)I've had to date. Others have helped but this one will deliver no doubt about it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOSH. I started a thread to see if I could get the real answer to this. I know that there are quite a few engineers and tube amp repairmen who probably know the answer to this. I'd like to know myself. It would help us better understand why certain tubes work best in certain position.
> 
> Now I know V1 and V2 are a no-brainer, but I would like to know what each side of V3 is doing in a TSL. Does one side provide extra gain and the other side operate the tone stack/cathode follower? If this is the case, then you would want to put a tube like a 24-28 in V3. Do you see why I said this? The 28 would be on the gain side and you would want that elevated. 24 would be a good number for the tone stack. So yes, this is a good question and maybe by tomorrow, we will have an answer.
> 
> Marty



Awesome. Thanks for the heads up Marty! I am subscribed to the new thread (http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-path-engineers-repairmen-only.html#post48744) and eagerly anticipating some feed back. Sadly, the TSL is rather maligned in the forum and I fear the response may be more negative than useful...


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Awesome. Thanks for the heads up Marty! I am subscribed to the new thread (http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-path-engineers-repairmen-only.html#post48744)and eagerly anticipating some feed back. Sadly, the TSL is rather maligned in the forum and I fear the response may be more negative than useful...



Yes, it could be perceived as "a red-headed stepchild." What's funny is that a lot of people rave about the JVM410 and it is just a TSL with one more channel. Even I thought that was overkill. (Sort of like the razor blade race. It used to be that one blade could shave you, but now it's five independent razors shaving your beard.) Why do you need four channels? Anyway, it's a current model, so you aren't allowed to slam them.

I'm just hoping one of the members with some class can provide the info. Hell, I'm not embarrassed that I own TSL's. At one time they were the flagship of the line. Just remember that.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I am curious to see if the boys at the black burn plant can get-er-goin'... I really would like to be optimistic because we could really use a new production tube that is actually of good build quality and sounds good, but I guess only time will tell.

On that note... They are stepping up their marketing. Here's a copy of the marketing email they sent me today...  




> Hi there,
> Last Wednesday saw the launch of the TechTube™ valve web shop to allow us to assess the final release of the e-commerce site. We are now fully ready with the first true valve development in over 40 years to allow the general public to get their hands on the product so you too can hear the fantastic improvements in tone, speed and creamy smoothness.
> Giving a superior listening experience we have engineered unbeatable sound reproduction. With their state of the art design, improved life performance, and superb sound development the valves excel with speed of response and sensitivity. TechTube™ valves deliver on every level.
> Having undertaken testing in HiFi audio systems, guitar amplifiers and professional recording equipment, all come back with the same response, WOW!! The improvement in tone, clarity, and lack of background noise has to be heard to be believed but don’t take our word for it. The new web site has quotes from the people who have tested the valves and also video footage so you can hear the valves in action.
> From the shop you can buy either standard valves or matched triode versions. We aim to please, so shipping from our factory here in Blackburn right through to your door, where ever that may be in the world is taken care of, even the duty payment to get it through Customs. Through every step of the buying process you are kept informed and even when you have placed your order we email you to let you know how things are progressing.
> Some of the very first valves bought have now been received by Customers and they have started to play with them. As is the world of the internet, blog reports are already coming through every day. Look into diyAudio and GearPage to read the latest entries.
> From all in the TechTube™ team @ Blackburn
> ******************************************************
> If you no longer wish to be on the TechTube™ mailing list then please send a mail to admin@blackburnmicrotech.com with the word “REMOVE ME” in the subject line. Our apologies for any inconvenience caused.


Click Here For A Video Review On Blackburn's Website

 Here's what they have to say about their version of the 12AX7 (Marty... You're gonna wanna look at this... Download the E813CC datasheet (PDF)):

 


​



> The E813CC has the same generic electrical characteristics as the world renowned ECC83. However its unique construction and our attention to manufacturing consistency result in a valve that delivers better performance time and time again. With improvements in “speed” and “clarity” the TechTube™ valve delivers detail you never knew existed.
> 
> Superior listening experience
> Improved life performance
> High quality build gives superb sound reproduction to every valve
> Planar valve design
> Unbeatable sound reproduction
> CRT cathode proven technology
> Direct replacement for ECC83/12AX7 and equivalents
> Built to repeat the sound experience time after time after time
> 6.3V driving voltage
> B9A pin base
> Superb sound development due to the valves speed and sensitivity
> The input stage of some guitar amplifiers can swamp this sensitivity generating microphony so we recommend you not to use this release of TechTube™ valve in this first valve position without using one of the many dampening devices available. (This Part Has Me Scratching my head a wee bit...)
> 
> We are Engineers of mind blowing sound and that is what you get with the TechTube™ valve, speed, clarity, smoooothness all combining to give your ears the best experience they will ever have…



From what I can see of the innards in the picture, it does look like an unusual design. What do you think?
​


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I am curious to see if the boys at the black burn plant can get-er-goin'... I really would like to be optimistic because we could really use a new production tube that is actually of good build quality and sounds good, but I guess only time will tell.
> 
> On that note... They are stepping up their marketing. Here's a copy of the marketing email they sent me today...
> 
> Click Here For A Video Review On Blackburn's Website
> 
> Here's what they have to say about their version of the 12AX7 (Marty... You're gonna wanna look at this... Download the E813CC datasheet (PDF)):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> 
> From what I can see of the innards in the picture, it does look like an unusual design. What do you think?
> ​



Looks like 1 12AX7 comes out to about $70. Someone buy one so we can hear the verdict...

I would but my money is tied up in 2 RFT EL34's.


----------



## rockinr0ll

I'm going to watch that video right after I finish with this CD I'm listening to.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Funny interview! 

"It's Tight."

lol love the accent...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> A 12BZ7 will always provide more gain than a 12AX7. This has been discussed many times in this forum. A 12BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. However, some guitar amp circuits do not like a 12BZ7. Excessive gain sometimes isn't a good thing. I sent Josh a 35-35 tube and he sent it back. He went with a 7025 in V1 and an Amperex 12AX7 in V2. So far, based on my experiments and those by Joe and Josh, the 7025 is the key to having great overall Marshall sound. Pairing a 7025 up with a high gain (30-30) tube is what everyone is settling on, so there must be something to it.
> Marty



So you think I'd be better served with a 7025 in V1 than, say, that RFT that I've been planning to buy? I've never been 7025 shopping. What do I look for (or avoid)?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like 1 12AX7 comes out to about $70. Someone buy one so we can hear the verdict...
> 
> I would but my money is tied up in 2 RFT EL34's.



Live rates at 2009.07.08 18:51:54 UTC *

30.00 GBP* *=* *48.0490 USD*

United Kingdom Pounds United States Dollars 1 GBP = 1.60163 USD 1 USD = 0.624363 GBP

+Shipping...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> So you think I'd be better served with a 7025 in V1 than, say, that RFT that I've been planning to buy? I've never been 7025 shopping. What do I look for (or avoid)?



If it was me, I would take the 7025 over the RFT in V1. However, a 7025 in V1 and an RFT in V2 would certainly be a sweet pair. The whole concept we have discovered revolves around a 7025 being matched up to a high gain quality NOS tube like a Amperex, Mullard or RFT. Another choice would be an RCA or Raytheon Black Plate in V2. 

We have also found that the 7025 does not have to be a high gainer. It can test 25-26 and be a perfect match up against a 29-30 tube in V2. By keeping the 7025 at a medium gain, it provides a very controlled and clear clean channel. The rocket in V2 provides all the necessary gain for the crunch and/or lead channels if you happen to own a TSL.

There are many 7025's for sale on EBAY. A good deal is a GE Black Plate. You can get one of these for under $30. The fact is, single tubes for sale can go one of two ways. They can go real cheap, or they can go real high. The best thing to do is position yourself in several auctions and then you can determine which auction you will have the best luck in. An RCA 7025 is the standard. You can't go wrong with one of them. 

If you can't get one on your own, I might be persuaded to let one of mine go.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked over the data and there are some pro's and con's. I don't know if you read about the heater circuit resistance. It is different than a 12AX7. What this means is that you will need to replace all four tubes with the E813CC to prevent any early tube failure. Also, depending on how your amp gets its heater voltage, you may actually have to change a rail resistor (part of the heater supply circuit) in your amp. I think most modern Marshall's get their 6.3 volts through a bridge rectifier, so this wouldn't be a problem. However, having to replace all of the tubes is a necessity. Read the spec sheet all the way through to the bottom. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Yes the tube is a completely different design with a gain factor of 90. It almost looks like two cowbells suspended on wires. From the specs, there are several areas were this tube varies from a 12AX7. They do not list the Rp (Plate Resistance), or I did not see it.

So the bottom line (unless I am wrong) is you can't just try one. It's all or nothing. That's sort of a bummer. Plus it takes away the ability to roll tubes.

If it comes down to these being available ten years from now, then it will be the tube of choice, because this is a quality product that is years ahead of anything from Russia or China.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOSH-By the time you read this, you will probably already know that JohnH left a link to the "other" Marshall forum regarding signal path through the tubes.

It is: The Marshall Amp Forum: &bull; View topic - Preamp Tube Functions

The only thing is it combines the DSL with the TSL and speaks of the two DSL channels. Now I know we had the discussion on whether or not a TSL was a three channel amp or a glorified two channel amp. The crunch and lead channel share a lot of circuitry, so maybe in reality it is just a two channel amp that can act like a three channel.

Anyway, it is interesting and I was only partially correct. However, it proves that V1 and V2 are the real money makers in either one of these amps.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOSH-By the time you read this, you will probably already know that JohnH left a link to the "other" Marshall forum regarding signal path through the tubes.
> 
> It is: The Marshall Amp Forum: &bull; View topic - Preamp Tube Functions
> 
> The only thing is it combines the DSL with the TSL and speaks of the two DSL channels. Now I know we had the discussion on whether or not a TSL was a three channel amp or a glorified two channel amp. The crunch and lead channel share a lot of circuitry, so maybe in reality it is just a two channel amp that can act like a three channel.
> 
> Anyway, it is interesting and I was only partially correct. However, it proves that V1 and V2 are the real money makers in either one of these amps.
> 
> Marty



Good link. Thanks Marty. It does kinda make it look like the TSL is a three headed toad that was the result of a nuclear accident involving a DSL...  

So would you read that as indicating that the "Ultra Gain" channel is the "same" as the "Lead" channel on a TSL?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I looked over the data and there are some pro's and con's. I don't know if you read about the heater circuit resistance. It is different than a 12AX7. What this means is that you will need to replace all four tubes with the E813CC to prevent any early tube failure. Also, depending on how your amp gets its heater voltage, you may actually have to change a rail resistor (part of the heater supply circuit) in your amp. I think most modern Marshall's get their 6.3 volts through a bridge rectifier, so this wouldn't be a problem. However, having to replace all of the tubes is a necessity. Read the spec sheet all the way through to the bottom. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
> 
> Yes the tube is a completely different design with a gain factor of 90. It almost looks like two cowbells suspended on wires. From the specs, there are several areas were this tube varies from a 12AX7. They do not list the Rp (Plate Resistance), or I did not see it.
> 
> So the bottom line (unless I am wrong) is you can't just try one. It's all or nothing. That's sort of a bummer. Plus it takes away the ability to roll tubes.
> 
> If it comes down to these being available ten years from now, then it will be the tube of choice, because this is a quality product that is years ahead of anything from Russia or China.
> 
> Marty



The stat sheet sure seems like they want to cover their butts if people do mix-n-match these w/ traditional 12AX7's...


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're probably right. As I look at it, I think the TSL has two channels, but you can alter the volume of the second channel to make it become the lead channel. In other words, you can be going through the same tube path, but you have independent volume controls that alter how loud the crunch and lead channels will be based on manual selection or through the footswitch.

The crunch/lead channels share a lot of internal circuitry, so I think I will have to change my mind and say the three-headed toad only has two heads and a big lump. The funny thing is that they put the DSL401 in a group by itself and it uses its four preamp tubes in a different manner of say a DSL50 or 100. 

Hell, you can go nuts trying to figure all of this stuff out.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Live rates at 2009.07.08 18:51:54 UTC *
> 
> 30.00 GBP* *=* *48.0490 USD*
> 
> United Kingdom Pounds United States Dollars 1 GBP = 1.60163 USD 1 USD = 0.624363 GBP
> 
> +Shipping...



They gave me a price of 42.39 in GBP. Maybe I will check it again later. I can't wait to hear how these sound.

Edit: Includes shipping.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> So you think I'd be better served with a 7025 in V1 than, say, that RFT that I've been planning to buy? I've never been 7025 shopping. What do I look for (or avoid)?



I would get the RFT and the 7025. That way you could use either in those 2 positions V1& V2. The RFT sounds awesome in V1 and it pairs up nice with the 7025 in V1 & RFT in V2 in my DSL. A worth while investment IMO.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I looked over the data and there are some pro's and con's... So the bottom line (unless I am wrong) is you can't just try one. It's all or nothing. That's sort of a bummer. Plus it takes away the ability to roll tubes...




I wonder just how prematurely the tube's life would come to an end?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> I wonder just how prematurely the tube's life would come to an end?



Well the funny thing about heaters is they last forever, even outlasting the life of the tube...as long as the voltage and current are within a specific range. A tube heater can only vary + or - 10 per cent. If it goes outside of its working parameter, the heater will fail, sometimes very quickly, especially if the voltage is on the high side. Plus the heater needs to be stable, or else the tube will perform badly. The inner workings of the tube all rely on the heater being stable. Most heaters are rated at +5000 hours of life. Military versions like JAN or JRC exceed this rating. I would assume by the way they keep bringing up this fact, their tube must fail rather quickly if the amp is not running all of the same tubes.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

so it's any one's guess?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Awesome. Thanks for the heads up Marty! I am subscribed to the new thread (http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-path-engineers-repairmen-only.html#post48744) and eagerly anticipating some feed back. Sadly, the TSL is rather maligned in the forum and I fear the response may be more negative than useful...





MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the funny thing about heaters is they last forever, even outlasting the life of the tube...as long as the voltage and current are within a specific range. A tube heater can only vary + or - 10 per cent. If it goes outside of its working parameter, the heater will fail, sometimes very quickly, especially if the voltage is on the high side. Plus the heater needs to be stable, or else the tube will perform badly. The inner workings of the tube all rely on the heater being stable. Most heaters are rated at +5000 hours of life. Military versions like JAN or JRC exceed this rating. I would assume by the way they keep bringing up this fact, their tube must fail rather quickly if the amp is not running all of the same tubes.
> 
> Marty



Well... It may not be helpful to Blackburn's market share... Unless they release another "more traditional" version of the 12AX7... I mean... yeah their are those guys who replace all their tubes in one shot, but it seems to me that there are more guys who don't. I mean the logic is pretty simple. It's like replacing every single light bulb in your house just because the one out in the garage burned out. You just wouldn't do that. And if you get a lot of folks buying one or two of these at a time, throwing them in their amps and saying, "Boy these sound good but don't last worth crap!" I think it'll bite Blackburn in the butt sooner or later... Anyhoo... Just thinking...

I'm gonna be out of town until late Sunday night. Ya'll take care!


----------



## solarburn

Check this out about the new TubeTech from the GP:

The Gear Page - View Single Post - TechTube to Start Manufacture of Tubes at Old Mullard Plant!

From about page 32 on for more input on these:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=438130&page=32


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I would get the RFT and the 7025. That way you could use either in those 2 positions V1& V2. The RFT sounds awesome in V1 and it pairs up nice with the 7025 in V1 & RFT in V2 in my DSL. A worth while investment IMO.



Yikes! I just did some checking on prices. If I go with the 7025/RFT 12AX7 combo and the RFT EL34 pair, I'm going to have to hatch some cash. That's almost half what I paid for the DSL! I don't have the patience to snipe on eBay, either. I want it NOW. I even hate waiting for shipping.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yikes! I just did some checking on prices. If I go with the 7025/RFT 12AX7 combo and the RFT EL34 pair, I'm going to have to hatch some cash. That's almost half what I paid for the DSL! I don't have the patience to snipe on eBay, either. I want it NOW. I even hate waiting for shipping.



What is the price on the RFT 12AX7 and the 7025?


----------



## RiverRatt

Looking at retail, as you know the RFT 12AX7 is around $40 at the best price. I've seen 7025's from $50 to $150, and I don't know enough about them to tell which is the better deal. I don't think I would go wrong with an RCA, but they are some of the most expensive. The RFT EL34s' are going to be at least $90 to $100.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Looking at retail, as you know the RFT 12AX7 is around $40 at the best price. I've seen 7025's from $50 to $150, and I don't know enough about them to tell which is the better deal. I don't think I would go wrong with an RCA, but they are some of the most expensive. The RFT EL34s' are going to be at least $90 to $100.



Yes to both RFT's. Marty will know about the 7025's so definitely ask him.

The RFT 12AX7 sounds good 2 ways that I've found.
1. V1 and a lower gain tube in V2.
2. The opposite. Lower gain(7025...)and then the RFT in V2.

In my amp the RFT had the biggest impact in V1. If you have to choose between the 2 you can't go wrong with either. If you can't find a good 7025 for under $40 then I would get the RFT. The EL34's are going to cost either way. To me its a win/win even if you have to give up a 12AX7.

Prolly come down to what you really need right now. Just remember to watch the RFT 12AX7's cause when they are gone, that's it. They are hard to find and they are getting more expensive because of it. 

Now you know I'm just think'n with you here. Do it how you want and what's best for you. Marty can help you work out which 7025's to get. He majorly hooked me up and man I have so many great combination's its hard to pick one for very long.

Do not buy any Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plates. They are horrible...

If you find some let me know though.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I took the plunge and bought a couple of RFT 7025A's. This sounded like a good deal, so I grabbed them. I hope they are what they claim to be - the writing is about gone, but the seller has 100% positive. See what you think.

2 Matched E. Germany RFT 7025-A Tubes


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I took the plunge and bought a couple of RFT 7025A's. This sounded like a good deal, so I grabbed them. I hope they are what they claim to be - the writing is about gone, but the seller has 100% positive. See what you think.
> 
> 2 Matched E. Germany RFT 7025-A Tubes



I don't see any info on them...


----------



## solarburn

This is what I have:

1.7025, RCA, Date ?, Short gray plates, Test 30-27 (High Gain)
2.7025 RCA?, Date ?, Medium gray plates, Test 22-24.
3.7025 RCA, 196X, Short gray plates, Test 22/23.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Things are heating up like a backyard B-B-Q. RFT 7025A's. If you got them for the $31 something, that's pretty good. Based on the sort of tester used, they are still in the usable range. I think they should sound really phat in your amp. Sort of took care of the RFT/7025 problem didn't you?

Joe-Your thread from the Gear Page stated:

[I added my comments within the brackets. Marty]

I was able to test the transconductance of my two E813CC tubes, and confirmed what I heard in my initial amp testing. Holy b'zeejus, these tubes are beyond "strong," and way out of the top end of the 12AX7 spec.

[But as you will see it is not a good thing.]

I tested both sections of these two valves in my B&K 707 tube tester, where acceptable transconductance values begin at 22, and I measured four reference 12AX7s (Mullard I63 type, '50s CBS, '50s Ken-Rad, and '60s short-plate RCA 12AX7A) that I keep for this purpose at about 33 per triode (as expected). These new TubeTech E813CC measured whopping values of 52&60, and 48&54. That is about 150% of "new"!!

[Hey, this guy knows a good tube tester, the 707 which we are all familiar with, but I hope he knows that CBS and Ken-Rad didn't make tubes. So look at these figures. We all know that too strong means the tube is unacceptable. It causes distortion.]

This does account for the extreme distortion that I experienced, even when turning my preamp "volume" down. With the tubes this far out of spec, it seems there was a QC problem. And there is no way a comparison test can be equal. I have contacted TubeTech/Blackburn Microtech, and am awaiting their response.

[This poor sap got a couple of Jupiter boosters. They make the original ICBM look like a bottle rocket, but at least you could use the ICBM. This guy has two new tubes that he cannot use. They are so stout, that they are distorting the front end of his Hi Fi gear. "And" he has no where to turn. I'll bet he doesn't get a reply back and if he does get some sort of return/refund it will take weeks to accomplish.]

Now I'm really concerned about these tubes. First, you can't just use one. Secondly, the quality control is not up to the Brit/Mullard standards of old and lastly, their customer service sounds like it is shaky.

You know, I had actually thought several months ago that Blackburn was going to reissue their original 12AX7. Maybe the QC would be better because of advancements in materials and such. They claimed the tubes would be made on original "Mullard" equipment. It all sounded really good at the time. Now it's like a wet dog in your lap. Doesn't sound good at all. 

I hope that they get it all under control fast, because the HI FI crowd has a long memory and if your shit is no good, it gets around fast and no one is going to buy your stuff.

The original spec sheet listed the tube with a gain of 90 and I said this would be more than acceptable. However, based on the above readings, I would like to have say twenty of the tubes to measure and see how many are above/below the norm. I mean it would be just as big of a bummer if you got some of these tubes and they tested 14-16. I have a feeling that this has probably happened. Those buyers without a tube tester are having to rely on Blackburn to sell them a tube that meets all the requirements. Right now it looks like that isn't happening.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! Things are heating up like a backyard B-B-Q. RFT 7025A's. If you got them for the $31 something, that's pretty good. Based on the sort of tester used, they are still in the usable range. I think they should sound really phat in your amp. Sort of took care of the RFT/7025 problem didn't you?
> 
> Joe-Your thread from the Gear Page stated:
> 
> [I added my comments within the brackets. Marty]
> 
> I was able to test the transconductance of my two E813CC tubes, and confirmed what I heard in my initial amp testing. Holy b'zeejus, these tubes are beyond "strong," and way out of the top end of the 12AX7 spec.
> 
> [But as you will see it is not a good thing.]
> 
> I tested both sections of these two valves in my B&K 707 tube tester, where acceptable transconductance values begin at 22, and I measured four reference 12AX7s (Mullard I63 type, '50s CBS, '50s Ken-Rad, and '60s short-plate RCA 12AX7A) that I keep for this purpose at about 33 per triode (as expected). These new TubeTech E813CC measured whopping values of 52&60, and 48&54. That is about 150% of "new"!!
> 
> [Hey, this guy knows a good tube tester, the 707 which we are all familiar with, but I hope he knows that CBS and Ken-Rad didn't make tubes. So look at these figures. We all know that too strong means the tube is unacceptable. It causes distortion.]
> 
> This does account for the extreme distortion that I experienced, even when turning my preamp "volume" down. With the tubes this far out of spec, it seems there was a QC problem. And there is no way a comparison test can be equal. I have contacted TubeTech/Blackburn Microtech, and am awaiting their response.
> 
> [This poor sap got a couple of Jupiter boosters. They make the original ICBM look like a bottle rocket, but at least you could use the ICBM. This guy has two new tubes that he cannot use. They are so stout, that they are distorting the front end of his Hi Fi gear. "And" he has no where to turn. I'll bet he doesn't get a reply back and if he does get some sort of return/refund it will take weeks to accomplish.]
> 
> Now I'm really concerned about these tubes. First, you can't just use one. Secondly, the quality control is not up to the Brit/Mullard standards of old and lastly, their customer service sounds like it is shaky.
> 
> You know, I had actually thought several months ago that Blackburn was going to reissue their original 12AX7. Maybe the QC would be better because of advancements in materials and such. They claimed the tubes would be made on original "Mullard" equipment. It all sounded really good at the time. Now it's like a wet dog in your lap. Doesn't sound good at all.
> 
> I hope that they get it all under control fast, because the HI FI crowd has a long memory and if your shit is no good, it gets around fast and no one is going to buy your stuff.
> 
> The original spec sheet listed the tube with a gain of 90 and I said this would be more than acceptable. However, based on the above readings, I would like to have say twenty of the tubes to measure and see how many are above/below the norm. I mean it would be just as big of a bummer if you got some of these tubes and they tested 14-16. I have a feeling that this has probably happened. Those buyers without a tube tester are having to rely on Blackburn to sell them a tube that meets all the requirements. Right now it looks like that isn't happening.
> 
> Marty



Yeah I noted they were too high and unusable. Expensive to boot! I thought I'd give ya a look at some of what's happening with them.

NOS for the win still.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Mr. Joe. ^^^Up There^^^ you told Ratt the following:

Do not buy any Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plates. They are horrible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you liked them? 

Yes, no? If no, please tell me why.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I got these for my Night Train:

Funkwerk RFT EL84 -1966-1970 M. Pairs MINT NOS NIB Welded Plate Tubes E. Germany.

I just put them in awhile ago. These are firecrackers with not much clean headroom at all hehe. Great overdrive and crunch though. Thick & syrupy. I'm going to have to try my strat with these and see how it sounds. Should be a good mix.

I still prefer the NOS Russian tubes Marty gave me cause they have lots of clean headroom and still a great overdrive. Not as gainy as the RFT but they sound good and make that nice clean to bite transition especially with guitar volume.

These RFT will be fun to mess with for edgier, aggressive tones. I got a wild hair and thought I'd try them out. 

I've got RFT EL34's on the way ta boot! Man I got RFT addiction go'n.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Mr. Joe. ^^^Up There^^^ you told Ratt the following:
> 
> Do not buy any Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plates. They are horrible.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you liked them?
> 
> Yes, no? If no, please tell me why.
> 
> Marty



Yeah I was using reverse psychology so he wouldn't buy my Raytheon BP's wherever they are. You know I wants more O dem.

Just me being selfish and protective of my little friends(Tony from Scarface voice).


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I was using reverse psychology so he wouldn't buy my Raytheon BP's wherever they are. You know I wants more O dem.
> 
> Just me being selfish and protective of my little friends(Tony from Scarface voice).



Oh no! Don't tell me that! I just took all of mine and smashed them on the sidewalk and beat them with the wheels of a skateboard.

Oh the tragedy of it all. What have I done, what have I done?

An embarrassed Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got these for my Night Train:
> 
> Funkwerk RFT EL84 -1966-1970 M. Pairs MINT NOS NIB Welded Plate Tubes E. Germany.
> 
> I just put them in awhile ago. These are firecrackers with not much clean headroom at all hehe. Great overdrive and crunch though. Thick & syrupy. I'm going to have to try my strat with these and see how it sounds. Should be a good mix.
> 
> I still prefer the NOS Russian tubes Marty gave me cause they have lots of clean headroom and still a great overdrive. Not as gainy as the RFT but they sound good and make that nice clean to bite transition especially with guitar volume.
> 
> These RFT will be fun to mess with for edgier, aggressive tones. I got a wild hair and thought I'd try them out.
> 
> I've got RFT EL34's on the way ta boot! Man I got RFT addiction go'n.



Ain't that the truth! You're an East German defect. So how much did you give for a pair of these...if it's any of my business???

My 401 that is in the shop, I'm having them put the RCA Dark Gray Plates back in for the power section. They sound frickin' hot in the 401. As you know, I recently discovered a box of tubes and what a box it was (as in a pair of RFT EL34's 4 U No Who). Anyway, I was just thrilled when I discovered that I had a matched quad of Amperex EL84's. I will have to try them out at some point. Made in 1958...Shiat, 50 year old tubes. Now that's NOS!!! Believe it or not, I bought an amp a couple of years ago and it had (2) RCA 7025's, (2) 12AX7's Amperex relabeled Packard-Bell and (4) Amperex EL84's relabeled Packard-Bell. (For all of you young guys, Packard-Bell was a high end consumer electronics company. If you ever find one of their full blown entertainment consoles, it will be full of the best tubes you can find).

Well Mr. RFT, I hope you control yourself as I believe you are now a certified tube roller.

Marty

There for a while, I was buying old amps on EBAY, taking the tubes out and then reselling the amps. I got a lot of good tubes that way. One amp had all RCA (made by Mullard) tubes, even the four EL84's. I sold them cuz you can't keep them all. Although I do cry about it every once in a while.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ain't that the truth! You're an East German defect. So how much did you give for a pair of these...if it's any of my business???
> 
> My 401 that is in the shop, I'm having them put the RCA Dark Gray Plates back in for the power section. They sound frickin' hot in the 401. As you know, I recently discovered a box of tubes and what a box it was (as in a pair of RFT EL34's 4 U No Who). Anyway, I was just thrilled when I discovered that I had a matched quad of Amperex EL84's. I will have to try them out at some point. Made in 1958...Shiat, 50 year old tubes. Now that's NOS!!! Believe it or not, I bought an amp a couple of years ago and it had (2) RCA 7025's, (2) 12AX7's Amperex relabeled Packard-Bell and (4) Amperex EL84's relabeled Packard-Bell. (For all of you young guys, Packard-Bell was a high end consumer electronics company. If you ever find one of their full blown entertainment consoles, it will be full of the best tubes you can find).
> 
> Well Mr. RFT, I hope you control yourself as I believe you are now a certified tube roller.
> 
> Marty
> 
> There for a while, I was buying old amps on EBAY, taking the tubes out and then reselling the amps. I got a lot of good tubes that way. One amp had all RCA (made by Mullard) tubes, even the four EL84's. I sold them cuz you can't keep them all. Although I do cry about it every once in a while.



Yeah when I fired them up they reminded me a bit of those silvertones. I think these RFT's are a tad hotter. Its real close. There ain't much clean at all in em'. I had to pay alot for the thrill though. $70. Ouch! I've just been hit'n it out of the park with these German tubes so I talked myself into it hehe.

I've been goof'n off with tubes all day and you know how I like to mess with the AT7's and put them in places I shouldn't...I put one in V1 in the Marshall and was enjoying the neutered gain...Then I put the 7025 back in V1 and crap man. Thick and kick ass! Wow! When I switched back it was amazing. I like the BP as much as the RFT. Both rip with the 7025's.

As far as preamp tubes I'm set. NOS Power tubes are the only ones left I haven't tried much of...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ain't that the truth! You're an East German defect. So how much did you give for a pair of these...if it's any of my business???
> 
> My 401 that is in the shop, I'm having them put the RCA Dark Gray Plates back in for the power section. They sound frickin' hot in the 401. As you know, I recently discovered a box of tubes and what a box it was (as in a pair of RFT EL34's 4 U No Who). Anyway, I was just thrilled when I discovered that I had a matched quad of Amperex EL84's. I will have to try them out at some point. Made in 1958...Shiat, 50 year old tubes. Now that's NOS!!! Believe it or not, I bought an amp a couple of years ago and it had (2) RCA 7025's, (2) 12AX7's Amperex relabeled Packard-Bell and (4) Amperex EL84's relabeled Packard-Bell. (For all of you young guys, Packard-Bell was a high end consumer electronics company. If you ever find one of their full blown entertainment consoles, it will be full of the best tubes you can find).
> 
> Well Mr. RFT, I hope you control yourself as I believe you are now a certified tube roller.
> 
> Marty
> 
> 
> 
> There for a while, I was buying old amps on EBAY, taking the tubes out and then reselling the amps. I got a lot of good tubes that way. One amp had all RCA (made by Mullard) tubes, even the four EL84's. I sold them cuz you can't keep them all. Although I do cry about it every once in a while.



Man you have some gems tucked away! Any word on when you get the 401 back? You got some tubes to roll in it. What do you expect the Amperex to be like? Anything they compare too or will it be a first?

Nice scores man! I see why I get to buy so many nice tubes from you hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was just telling Josh yesterday that I might be getting my amps back on Saturday. I have my 122 in the shop as well.

I have never tried Mullard or Amperex EL84's in the 401. I sort of wish that I hadn't sold the Mullards, but I got $185 for them on EBAY. I could probably get close to $300 or more for the Amperex, because they are made in 1958 and all of the logos are good. They are more desirable over the Mullards. The quad of Telefunken (or are they RFT's?) EL84's that I have will bring over $200 if I were to sell them. I had two quads of the RCA's and I sold one quad for $165. If I had a bunch of EL84's, I could make some serious money.

Something tells me those Amperex will really sound special. All that 1958 mojo going on. I will use them and play them and if they sound really good, I'm afraid I will take them out and put them away (again). I would rather wear out the RCA's then these beautiful old tubes (they look brand new).

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was just telling Josh yesterday that I might be getting my amps back on Saturday. I have my 122 in the shop as well.
> 
> I have never tried Mullard or Amperex EL84's in the 401. I sort of wish that I hadn't sold the Mullards, but I got $185 for them on EBAY. I could probably get close to $300 or more for the Amperex, because they are made in 1958 and all of the logos are good. They are more desirable over the Mullards. The quad of Telefunken (or are they RFT's?) EL84's that I have will bring over $200 if I were to sell them. I had two quads of the RCA's and I sold one quad for $165. If I had a bunch of EL84's, I could make some serious money.
> 
> Something tells me those Amperex will really sound special. All that 1958 mojo going on. I will use them and play them and if they sound really good, I'm afraid I will take them out and put them away (again). I would rather wear out the RCA's then these beautiful old tubes (they look brand new).
> 
> Marty



I don't blame ya tuck'n those away. Thats alot of clams altogether. Would like to be there to hear them though...

I just got done jamm'n the RFT 84's with my strat. Finally got some cleans. These sound really good with the strat. Can get more in between clean and grit tones. These are going to work for some smok'n blues jams me thinks. Glad that wasn't a waste of money...unless they die on me:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

One thing about a Strat. It ain't gonna blast the front end out of your amp unless you have active pickups. My Strat has the Gold Lace pickups and I tell you they sound so good in my 401. I put my Explorer or my Schecter in my 401 and the clean headroom cuts away by half.

So...it only stands to reason that if you have a super high gain tube, or a set of "hot" power tubes, a Strat will mellow it out over a bad-ass humbucker. Not to say you can't get fire out of a Strat. I can get fire and I can get ice. That's the beauty of a Strat. The Schecter has DiMarzio's and in the bridge is my favorite standard, the Distortion Plus. I had DiMarzio's in my 1969 LP Gold Top, the one that was stolen. The original pickups in the Schecter were "designed by" Duncan horse manure. I put the DiMarzio's in and it turned the guitar into a beast. It's a long scale, so it can get really ballsy.

Oh, back to tubes since this is the Preamp Tube Thread. Yeah those 1958 Amperex tubes don't come up often on EBAY, especially a matched quad. I'm sure you know that there are a lot of Hi Fi geeks who just love a small push-pull EL84 amp. This gives them about 15 to 17 watts of power per channel. They hook them up to super efficient speakers that cost about three grand a pair and this puts them into hog heaven. These are the sort of people that would go nuts over these old Amperex tubes. (And I don't blame them a bit!)

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> One thing about a Strat. It ain't gonna blast the front end out of your amp unless you have active pickups. My Strat has the Gold Lace pickups and I tell you they sound so good in my 401. I put my Explorer or my Schecter in my 401 and the clean headroom cuts away by half.
> 
> So...it only stands to reason that if you have a super high gain tube, or a set of "hot" power tubes, a Strat will mellow it out over a bad-ass humbucker. Not to say you can't get fire out of a Strat. I can get fire and I can get ice. That's the beauty of a Strat. The Schecter has DiMarzio's and in the bridge is my favorite standard, the Distortion Plus. I had DiMarzio's in my 1969 LP Gold Top, the one that was stolen. The original pickups in the Schecter were "designed by" Duncan horse manure. I put the DiMarzio's in and it turned the guitar into a beast. It's a long scale, so it can get really ballsy.
> 
> Oh, back to tubes since this is the Preamp Tube Thread. Yeah those 1958 Amperex tubes don't come up often on EBAY, especially a matched quad. I'm sure you know that there are a lot of Hi Fi geeks who just love a small push-pull EL84 amp. This gives them about 15 to 17 watts of power per channel. They hook them up to super efficient speakers that cost about three grand a pair and this puts them into hog heaven. These are the sort of people that would go nuts over these old Amperex tubes. (And I don't blame them a bit!)
> 
> Marty



I'm back...I had to pass out and get some sleep. I was cross eyed. 

I almost put some Gold Lace pups in mine but I opted for a drop in Carvin kit with HSS. Much better than what was in it and the HB replaced a SC in the bridge. Beefed it up but its not high output. Great for getting those rock tones when I want them. Can split the HB too.

I thought it would work out that way with the RFT 84's after hitting it with my Dimarzios on the Tele. Those are ballzy. With it I just can't get a clean without break up unless I turn the gain way down and then I have no headroom. With the strat my headroom is intact and I pretty much have a solid clean with a hint of break up. That's the way I like it. 

Anyways it really sings when overdriven. 

I found those Rusky 84's but none of them are matched. Can buy them for $10 a single tube:

Reflektor 6P14P-EB (EV) - 1980s MINT NOS NIB Russian Military aka EL84M Tubes

So far they are my Favorite all arounder for the NT. Great cleans, nice crunch when they break up and tons of headroom. They've taken some high volume abuse too and keep coming back for more. Just wished TM had some matched sets. 

Vox would do good to put the Russian NOS stalk in the NT if they could. I bet there would be alot more players giv'n the thumbs up on the amp. The Sovtecs had alot of headroom but the crunch was sharp and they are much stiffer in feel. Then the EH's in the preamp to my ears accentuated the toppiness even more. 

I want to try a pair of the current Russian tubes and compare them to the NOS. If they are anything like them I will have a great pair of 84's to go to.

Here are the RFT's I bought:

Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS NIB 1966-1970 Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.

I had a hard time getting them seated the last little bit. Was having to exert more force on these then any tube I've ever put in and they come with that don't push too hard or they may crack warning. I was getting a bit nervous as these aren't cheap. It worked out after some careful coaxing. The RFT 12AX7's went in easily. Oh well. The only thing cracked is me.

So the RFT 84's show really early break up and just a fat, warm smok'n overdrive. Hopefully they will last along time...

Here is a blip on the preamp tubes I have in the NT:

V3- JAN-Philips 12AX7WA. If you really want NOS (New Old Stock) tubes, this is one of the best buys out there. The Philips tube is well built and should be long lasting. The tubes I tested had lots of gain while still maintaining very good noise levels and good tolerance for microphonics. The tone was solid in the midrange with very wide dynamic response. If you're not careful with your setup, you can get these tubes to be boomy in the bottom end and shrill in the high end. I found that they were great with the tone controls set flat. Great in both combo amps and monster stacks.(From the tubestore)

JAN-Philips 12AX7WA


PI- RFT 12AX7.(V1 in the Marshall. Hard Rocker's will love.) This helped tame the toppiness a little in the NT. It is a darker sounding tube. It was too dark in V3 to my ears.

Brand new, MINT NOS Late 1960s RFT ECC83 12AX7 VEB Röhrenwerke Anna Seghers Neuhaus Prod Tubes with Halo Getter. Made in E. Germany. All tubes from same date/batch. These are in the top 2-3 desirable tubes for Guitar tone, and also work fine in Audio gear. 

They got my vote in my limited experience and use of NOS tubes. I'd put the Raytheon BP's up there with them in guitar amps.


----------



## gemather

Hello,
cause i use Rocktron mAxe in front of my stubbin JCM 900 MK3,
i had less noise with *12AU7 Phillips* _long ribbet plate_
and the more differences playing with sensivity.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this old Magnavox stereo out. I'd almost drive to Nashville to see what those twin amps are.

Vintage Magnovox Tube Record Player Cabinet (2) 15" Speakers


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Check this old Magnavox stereo out. I'd almost drive to Nashville to see what those twin amps are.
> 
> Vintage Magnovox Tube Record Player Cabinet (2) 15" Speakers



I wonder what tubes she has in her? I can see where stuff like that would be fun to hunt down considering some of the pay offs tube wise.


----------



## RiverRatt

It is a blast, especially when you find one with a big payoff. Dude's price is way too high, though. I might pay $10-20 at a yard sale and take a chance on it. It all depends on when it was made. If it's mid to late 50's or early 60's, it might have some real treasures. Mid to late 60's is usually GE/Sylvania. Not bad, but not exactly a black plate RCA, either. My last decent score was an old console TV that was in a barn, and had been for over 40 years by the looks of it. After clearing out the wasp nests and spiders, I got a sweet Sylvania 6BQ5 out of it. Took it home and popped it into my Blackheart head and it worked perfectly. It's amazing to me that a tube can withstand the abuse of being outside for that long and still work.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It is a blast, especially when you find one with a big payoff. Dude's price is way too high, though. I might pay $10-20 at a yard sale and take a chance on it. It all depends on when it was made. If it's mid to late 50's or early 60's, it might have some real treasures. Mid to late 60's is usually GE/Sylvania. Not bad, but not exactly a black plate RCA, either. My last decent score was an old console TV that was in a barn, and had been for over 40 years by the looks of it. After clearing out the wasp nests and spiders, I got a sweet Sylvania 6BQ5 out of it. Took it home and popped it into my Blackheart head and it worked perfectly. It's amazing to me that a tube can withstand the abuse of being outside for that long and still work.



2 things I hate. Spiders and wasps hehe. Were the wasp nests dead before or after the extracting of the tube?

How did that Sylvania EL84 sound? It is amazing those tubes will fire right up after that. I guess if they're shielded a bit from the outside world and plugged in they have a great chance of being good.

Oooh...frigg'n spiders.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Sylvania sounded really nice. I used it on a gig right after that. It broke up earlier and smoother than the Sovtek that came in it. It may have been a little darker, too, but it's hard to say as the theatre we were in may have had something to do with that. I've got a Tung-Sol RI in it now, but it may get one of the RFT's when they come in.

I love my Marshall, but every time I plug into one of those little class A EL84 amps, it just blows me away. I've got a couple of those Crate 1x12 cabs that came with the Celestion G12K-100 speakers that I use with the amp. I've got about $350 in the whole rig. It'll go from Vox chime to Marshall crunch, and with the neck pickup from soft jazz to smoking blues. 

You have a Night Train, right? I've been wanting to try one out for a long time. It might be a good amp for when the Blackheart is too small and the Marshall is overkill. I used to use Fender amps all the time. I've had a Vibro-Champ, a Princeton Reverb and a BF Super with a single 15" from the factory. I feel no compelling urge to own a Fender amp anymore, though. Strange. Well, maybe if a Vibrolux fell off the back of a truck I'd pick it up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh yeah, the wasps were pretty much gone. There was a layer of dirt in the bottom of the chassis from where all the mud wasp (known as "dirt-dobbers" in the south) nests had fallen over the years. Spiders don't bother me - I can recognize a brown recluse and a black widow at a glance, but I will cross the street to avoid anything that flies and stings.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The Sylvania sounded really nice. I used it on a gig right after that. It broke up earlier and smoother than the Sovtek that came in it. It may have been a little darker, too, but it's hard to say as the theatre we were in may have had something to do with that. I've got a Tung-Sol RI in it now, but it may get one of the RFT's when they come in.
> 
> I love my Marshall, but every time I plug into one of those little class A EL84 amps, it just blows me away. I've got a couple of those Crate 1x12 cabs that came with the Celestion G12K-100 speakers that I use with the amp. I've got about $350 in the whole rig. It'll go from Vox chime to Marshall crunch, and with the neck pickup from soft jazz to smoking blues.
> 
> You have a Night Train, right? I've been wanting to try one out for a long time. It might be a good amp for when the Blackheart is too small and the Marshall is overkill. I used to use Fender amps all the time. I've had a Vibro-Champ, a Princeton Reverb and a BF Super with a single 15" from the factory. I feel no compelling urge to own a Fender amp anymore, though. Strange. Well, maybe if a Vibrolux fell off the back of a truck I'd pick it up.



Right on man. From what I understand those Fenders are nice ones. I've never played any of those. Hey I have 2 of those Crate 112's with K100's too. I picked both up for a $100 a piece at a Musician's Friend closeout. 

I've looked at clips of those Blackhearts and they can sound pretty damn good! I've read lots of guys play'n them and even modding too. I think if I was going to mod one I would just put a MM OT in it and thats all. The rest would be re tubing...I like keeping it simple with these small amps. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8hZBPIPQXY]YouTube - Blackheart Handsome Devil Combo[/ame]

The NT is pretty cool. Its my first EL84 amp. The volume is still a bit under whelming but miced this thing would be fine at any blues jam. Its fairly loud but after cranking the Marshall you really see that it ain't. 

I had to tame its toppiness a little and it really has some great blues to rock tones. Those RFT EL84's I just got for it are frigg'n incredible. I just got done crank'n it plugged into my 412 cab of Greenbacks and it was smok'n. I've never heard it sound that naughty.

With the Strat there was plenty of clean headroom. On the edge break up tones are very sweet because it is a warm, round crunchy break up. After getting a chance to give it the proper volume I give these power tubes even more of a nod. Only downside is they are pricey.


----------



## RiverRatt

My Blackheart is the BH5H Little Giant head. It has a single 12AX7 and a single El84. Not a lot of gain built-in, but even a cheap pedal like a Bad Monkey sounds really nice in front of it. It's like it was built to be modded, but honestly I haven't seen the need to.

Man, you're driving me crazy with all this RFT talk. I've already got my 7025's on the way, I have a 12AX7 and a pair of EL34's on my to-do list, and now I have to get an EL84. I'm going to have to start moonlighting or something to pay for this addiction.

I got my Crate 1x12's on that MF closeout, too. They were cheaper than the G21K-100's by themselves! I also picked up one of those Crate Powerblock amps that went with them. It was also a $99.95 closeout. I hate to bring this up on a tube amp forum, but running the Powerblock into the 1x12's in stereo with my PodXT as a preamp is a nice rig.


----------



## Tubenut

chec out the techtube website TechTube Valves - Blackburn MicroTech Solutions they are awsome
get the cheaper ones I did they are wicked


----------



## MartyStrat54

Big Joe:

Right tube, wrong year. The batch I bought was made in 1967. Same factory and all, but much earlier production. Do they sound different? I can't answer that. I also had some smokers that came in a sort of bright yellow box. I actually liked them better. I bought all my tubes direct from Russia, but you had to buy quantities. If you want the info on the Russian guy who sells them, I can get it for you. I think you can buy like four or six tubes (for less than $10 each), but to make it worthwhile (shipping charges) you would want to do what I did and buy quantity.

I found that guy's info. It is: http://stores.ebay.com/SOVCOM

I don't know if you remember me telling you this, but I couldn't sell these tubes on EBAY. I damn near tried giving them away and no one would buy them. However, if I put them in someone's amp, they would say, "Damn that sounds sweet." Funny isn't it?

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

I almost pulled the string, but alas I am knee deep in tubes. Bulletin!!! I looked over Alex's stuff and found two good buys. For you RFT freaks there is:

ECC83 12AX7 RFT Germany Tubes Lot of 2 NOS - eBay (item 200361304579 end time Jul-19-09 11:12:38 PDT)

And if you want a quad of the EL84's for just $22 then go here:

RARE! 6P14P-EV = 7189 = 6BQ5 = EL84M Tubes Lot of 4 NIB - eBay (item 200354287859 end time Jul-18-09 16:03:23 PDT)

He will combine shipping at nine dollars and it takes about two weeks for delivery.

Let me know if someone jumps on this.

Marty


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## RiverRatt

Those RFT 12AX7's look like a sweet deal. If I hadn't just bought the 7025's I might give them a try. Maybe I can come up with some $$$ before somebody snaps them up.

On a positive note, the PC is back up and running after the latest virus snafu. Thankfully I had a pretty good backup. I didn't lose anything except a few hours sleep.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Big Joe:
> 
> Right tube, wrong year. The batch I bought was made in 1967. Same factory and all, but much earlier production. Do they sound different? I can't answer that. I also had some smokers that came in a sort of bright yellow box. I actually liked them better. I bought all my tubes direct from Russia, but you had to buy quantities. If you want the info on the Russian guy who sells them, I can get it for you. I think you can buy like four or six tubes (for less than $10 each), but to make it worthwhile (shipping charges) you would want to do what I did and buy quantity.
> 
> I found that guy's info. It is: eBay Store - SOVCOM: Tubes, 400V - 750V, Silver Mica
> 
> I don't know if you remember me telling you this, but I couldn't sell these tubes on EBAY. I damn near tried giving them away and no one would buy them. However, if I put them in someone's amp, they would say, "Damn that sounds sweet." Funny isn't it?
> 
> Marty



Gotcha man. I didn't realize those tubes were from the 60's. Well I really don't need to get any for awhile but thanks for the info on where to get them. I'll save the guys info though just in case.

I do remember you telling me no one wanted them. Man they just didn't know the tubes actually sound great. Those of us you gave them to do hehe.


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## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> My Blackheart is the BH5H Little Giant head. It has a single 12AX7 and a single El84. Not a lot of gain built-in, but even a cheap pedal like a Bad Monkey sounds really nice in front of it. It's like it was built to be modded, but honestly I haven't seen the need to.
> 
> Man, you're driving me crazy with all this RFT talk. I've already got my 7025's on the way, I have a 12AX7 and a pair of EL34's on my to-do list, and now I have to get an EL84. I'm going to have to start moonlighting or something to pay for this addiction.
> 
> I got my Crate 1x12's on that MF closeout, too. They were cheaper than the G21K-100's by themselves! I also picked up one of those Crate Powerblock amps that went with them. It was also a $99.95 closeout. I hate to bring this up on a tube amp forum, but running the Powerblock into the 1x12's in stereo with my PodXT as a preamp is a nice rig.



I have 2 of those powerblocks as well. Too funny. I bought one from a friend and then decided I didn't want my Valve Jr. anymore and he did so he traded me another powerblock for it. Shortly after I saw the sale at MF and got those cabs/speakers. Frigg'n steal that sale was. Yeah those powerblocks aren't half bad. I've read about guys using them as back up amps while gigg'n out and actually using them.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I almost pulled the string, but alas I am knee deep in tubes. Bulletin!!! I looked over Alex's stuff and found two good buys. For you RFT freaks there is:
> 
> ECC83 12AX7 RFT Germany Tubes Lot of 2 NOS - eBay (item 200361304579 end time Jul-19-09 11:12:38 PDT)
> 
> And if you want a quad of the EL84's for just $22 then go here:
> 
> RARE! 6P14P-EV = 7189 = 6BQ5 = EL84M Tubes Lot of 4 NIB - eBay (item 200354287859 end time Jul-18-09 16:03:23 PDT)
> 
> He will combine shipping at nine dollars and it takes about two weeks for delivery.
> 
> Let me know if someone jumps on this.
> 
> Marty



Shoot man those are a couple of good deals. Sorry I can't do. I need to pay for my RFT EL34's coming in. The RFT 84's ran me tight for anything else.

Did I say lately I like German tubes...


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## MartyStrat54

Well, that is a smoking deal on a pair of NOS RFT's. I could buy them, but I just don't need them. If it was the same price and a USA seller, I'd be all over it like Christmas jelly.

Oh well, I tried. Everyone is over extended because of tube purchases. I guess we just need to be happy with the one's we have.

Marty


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, that is a smoking deal on a pair of NOS RFT's. I could buy them, but I just don't need them. If it was the same price and a USA seller, I'd be all over it like Christmas jelly.
> 
> Oh well, I tried. Everyone is over extended because of tube purchases. I guess we just need to be happy with the one's we have.
> 
> Marty



I have a couple extra RFT's in my drawer from earlier buys when I decided to have a lil' stash. You know I love these in the Marshall. Its a great deal as I paid that much for 1.

Now if it was a Raytheon BP I'd rob Peter to pay Paul...


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I have a couple extra RFT's in my drawer from earlier buys when I decided to have a lil' stash. You know I love these in the Marshall. Its a great deal as I paid that much for 1.
> 
> Now if it was a Raytheon BP I'd rob Peter to pay Paul...



Man! I can't believe all the threads you have posted on! SolarBurn, SolarBurn, SolarBurn, SolarBurn and SolarBurn!

Man! You are hitting threads I can't touch. Smooth and sensitive, just like my razor. Boy, you are just bursting with info to share. Hang in there!

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Just browsing on EBAY. Do you think you could fly with this crowd???

6 NIB TELEFUNKEN ECC83 12AX7 VACUUM TUBES RTF #2 - eBay (item 380136681597 end time Jul-12-09 15:00:05 PDT)

6 NIB TELEFUNKEN ECC83 12AX7 VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 310153408605 end time Jul-12-09 14:31:01 PDT)

Vintage Eight (8) Matched RCA 12AX7 Black Plate Tubes - eBay (item 280368221748 end time Jul-13-09 20:22:27 PDT)

11 TELEFUNKEN 12AX7 ECC83 SMOOTH PLATE TEST NOS - eBay (item 190319695550 end time Jul-13-09 18:22:05 PDT)

SIX VINTAGE TELEFUNKEN 12AX7 ECC83 PRE AMP TUBE - eBay (item 380137055159 end time Jul-14-09 17:42:00 PDT)

These are current auctions with bids. The RCA BP's are a bargain right now at $25 each. Man, those Telefunken (RFT) tubes are off the chart. I have five or six Telefunken smooth gray plates and while they are a premium sounding tube, I would take an Amperex over a Telefunken...or is it really an RFT? Yes, some were made by Telefunken and some were made by RFT. Even the Germans were into relabeling. Sounds like the old communist (E. German) RFT was working overtime making tubes.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just browsing on EBAY. Do you think you could fly with this crowd???
> 
> 6 NIB TELEFUNKEN ECC83 12AX7 VACUUM TUBES RTF #2 - eBay (item 380136681597 end time Jul-12-09 15:00:05 PDT)
> 
> 6 NIB TELEFUNKEN ECC83 12AX7 VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 310153408605 end time Jul-12-09 14:31:01 PDT)
> 
> Vintage Eight (8) Matched RCA 12AX7 Black Plate Tubes - eBay (item 280368221748 end time Jul-13-09 20:22:27 PDT)
> 
> 11 TELEFUNKEN 12AX7 ECC83 SMOOTH PLATE TEST NOS - eBay (item 190319695550 end time Jul-13-09 18:22:05 PDT)
> 
> SIX VINTAGE TELEFUNKEN 12AX7 ECC83 PRE AMP TUBE - eBay (item 380137055159 end time Jul-14-09 17:42:00 PDT)
> 
> These are current auctions with bids. The RCA BP's are a bargain right now at $25 each. Man, those Telefunken (RFT) tubes are off the chart. I have five or six Telefunken smooth gray plates and while they are a premium sounding tube, I would take an Amperex over a Telefunken...or is it really an RFT? Yes, some were made by Telefunken and some were made by RFT. Even the Germans were into relabeling. Sounds like the old communist (E. German) RFT was working overtime making tubes.


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## MartyStrat54

I'd like to take this time to thank the twenty or so customers who have bought tubes off of me. It's been a pleasure doing business with you. I have sold many pre-packaged sets where you, the customer has had to rely on the tubes I pick for you. So far, I have a 100 per cent satisfaction rate.

Recently, something came up and I need to address it here. I do not do any business outside of the USA. Please keep that in mind when contacting me.

I have stepped up my tube buying so I can assist all new buyers. I try to keep 100 to 150 12AX7-7025-ECC83's in stock. It takes up quite a bit of time to find good deals so I can pass them on to you.

Most of my customers will tell you that they got tubes from me for a lot less than the online tube stores or NOS tube stores. Most want $40 dollars for a brand name 12AX7. I usually sell mine for $25 to $35 dollars depending on brand and condition.

All my tubes are tested on a calibrated B and K 707 Dyna Jet Tube Tester. It has been converted to solid state DC for more accurate measuring. However, I can only test for microphonics "by ear" with the aid of a small Hi Fi tube amp. A tube can be sold without microphonics, but it is something any tube can develop once it is put in service. Guitar amps are generally considered hostile territory for any tubes, whether preamp or power. It is a known fact that tubes in a Hi Fi unit will last much longer than those in a guitar amp. Also, 12AX7's with long plates tend to get microphonic and wear out faster than one's with short plates. However, nothing stops me from using a good sounding long plate. Tubes are made to be used. It's a simple fact that they wear out.

If you are interested in NOS tubes, or if you need detailed information about anything related to tubes, you can send me a private message (PM), or you can email me direct at: meospeak@aol.com

I prefer PayPal, but money orders are okay.

Thanks again, Marty


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## solarburn

I've gotten a couple of Marty NOS kits. Top notch! Now we're finishing the Marshall off with some nice NOS power tubes...German of course.


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## RiverRatt

I got my RFT 7025A's in yesterday. They seem to have more thump (more balls) and indeed they are darker than the RCA's I was using. I've got one in V1 and V2. They actually have more gain than I was expecting. Really nice. Thanks for the pointer, guys.

I've found a good looking record player to salvage. I've been trying to find info on the net, and it's not there. This model is an RCA Orthophonic and looks to be from the mid to late 1960's. Some models had a push-pull amp with 2 6v6's, others had 50C5's. The lady who has it wants $40, and there's no way to get inside it until I buy it. Decisions, decisions...


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## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I got my RFT 7025A's in yesterday. They seem to have more thump (more balls) and indeed they are darker than the RCA's I was using. I've got one in V1 and V2. They actually have more gain than I was expecting. Really nice. Thanks for the pointer, guys.
> 
> I've found a good looking record player to salvage. I've been trying to find info on the net, and it's not there. This model is an RCA Orthophonic and looks to be from the mid to late 1960's. Some models had a push-pull amp with 2 6v6's, others had 50C5's. The lady who has it wants $40, and there's no way to get inside it until I buy it. Decisions, decisions...



I don't know what a set of 50C5's are fetching. It is sort of an oddball tube. The last two pair of really nice matching 6V6's I sold on EBAY, I lost money on them. I don't know why that is, especially with the smaller Fender users.

That record player would have to have some really nice pre-tubes to justify the $40. Something tells me that there isn't a whole lot of 12AX7's in there, maybe two. Proceed with caution, unless you already know what the rest of the tubes are. If you had a model number, I have a website that has a vast library of schematics. It would show all the tube used. I don't think it would be listed under "Orthophonic."

Glad to see you got the 7025's. I guess the RFT's are a little darker than an American made 7025, because an RCA is "lively." I haven't tried any of the Amperex 7025's that I bought. I will get around to using them though to get a feel for them. If they are anything like their 12AX7's, look out!

Marty


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## RiverRatt

I guess you could call these "lively" or maybe even "springy", just not as bright. I found myself dialing in a little more treble than usual. I cranked the amp up for awhile and was just playing an A chord with a low E bottom because it sounded really nice and chunky. My son came in and said "You know, you're shaking the walls. How can you stand it?" I just smiled and nodded.

From what I've read, that model turntable probably has the 50C5's in it. I was looking in one of the vents in the back and saw a tall skinny tube that I thought might be a 6BQ5 or a 7189, but I can't find a model that uses those tubes. I thought it looked too big to be a 50C5, but I was probably seeing what I wanted to. I think the 6V6 version is worth quite a bit more money than the 50C5, although I've seen the 50C5 version sell on eBay for $39.95, so it might be a no-risk venture.


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## MartyStrat54

Hey RATT, I don't know how massive your data base is (Mine is like a mountain on two computers linked together). Anyways, here is a link that is extremely useful for looking up old gear. They have schematics from 1926(!) to 1969. All makes and models. As long as you know the model or the chassis number, they probably have it and it's all free. 

Go to: Techpreservation-Home of Vintage Radio Information

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Look! It's the 15W combo version of the HAZE.

RCA 400 Guitar Amp W/ Vintage AlNiCo Jensen !TONE! - eBay (item 180381319151 end time Jul-18-09 13:38:13 PDT)

Hell, I may bid on it (just what I need!).

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

This is an answer I left on another thread. I thought it would be appropriate over here. Marty


Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhi View Post
Thank you guys for the helpful responses. I read the thread that you guys told me. I read that Marty uses ebay as a source of NOS tubes. Can you tell me what's your approach on finding good deals on NOS tubes?

* What names/brands do you look for?
* The expected price range to pay for a tube.
* What things to look for/avoid when buying.
* Other good sources for buying NOS tubes.

Hello. Let me try to answer your questions.

The lower cost brands are Sylvania and GE to name a few. These are still great tubes. It's just they are less desirable than other brands. Sylvania kept manufacturing tubes longer than most, so there are more NOS Sylvania's available. In fact, a lot of other tube makers would have Sylvania make their tubes and the tubes would then be relabeled as GE, RCA or some other brand.

The better American 12AX7's are RCA, Tungsol and Raytheon. All three of these companies made "black plate" tubes. These are considered to be some of the finest examples of American 12AX7's. You can expect to pay at least $30 each or higher for these tubes.

The more costly NOS tubes are European made. Tubes like Mullard, RFT, Telefunken and Amperex will in some instances be out of reach of the average NOS buyer. Expect to pay $40 or more for any of these tubes.

I personally will buy almost any brand of tube, because I resell. I can see where someone has "CBS" tubes for sale. CBS didn't make a wide variety of tubes, so you have to look at the pictures or contact the seller for more info and then make a determination about who really made them. This is where you can really make a good buy. Say the CBS tubes were really made by RCA and you got three of them for $27. That's a damn good deal. These are the type of deals I shoot for and I also like to take advantage of auctions with large amounts of tubes for sale. A large lot is eight or more. Yes, you can end up spending $150 or more, but if you get 8, good tested 12AX7 for less than $20 each, you are doing good.

Another thing to add is that if you are only buying one tube, they kill you with the shipping. Most of the time a single tube is 5 or 6 dollars. That's another reason I like to buy tubes in at least lots of four or more.

Expect to pay anywhere from $6 to $60 for a single 12AX7. Again, depends on the brand and quality of the tube. In reality, the average price is under $25.

When buying on EBAY, look for a Power Seller with very good feedback. Most tube buyers do not have a tube tester, so you are at the mercy of the seller. A Power Seller with good feedback can be perceived as honest. Make sure the Power Seller lists the condition of the tubes, the brand, whether they are new or used and the tube test results on the tubes. I rarely buy tubes from sellers who do not own a tube tester. If the seller states he is using a Hickok, TV7, B and K, or EICO, these types of testers usually are very accurate. When looking at the test results, pay attention to what the minimum reading should be compared to how the tube tested. All testers use different scales, but you should be able to understand the results. Whatever the minimum is, you will want to find tubes that are high above that number.

As far as other NOS sources, you can Google or Dogpile and finds lots of them. The only problem is that they are high priced. The best thing to do is become familiar with tube prices on EBAY. You need to understand that you won't win every time, but when you do, it will be for a price you were willing to pay. I usually "watch" 35 to 40 auctions and some get so high I don't even bid. Some are overlooked and I snatch them up, usually at the minimum bid. I actually won two, RCA 12AX7's for 99 cents and the shipping. To do good on EBAY, you must be able to access a computer during the course of the day and the evening. Why? Because most people put a bid down and another bidder will outbid you with 12 hours left in the auction. I make my one and only bid with 5 to 6 seconds left. Bottom line, I either win at a price I'm happy with, or I loose. I have found out that by using this method, I win about 85 per cent of my auctions.


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## MartyStrat54

Slow night...who would of thought that it would only be me posting. 

Have you ever heard of the "Tone Lizard?" He has a huge library of online sites under the name of, "Tales From Tone Lounge." I have read many of his articles, but I just came across this one. It is very interesting to read if you have the time. There are many hyperlinks that take you to even more stuff such as the origin of many of the tube companies.

If you like info on tubes, tube testers and NOS tubes from the 50's and 60's, here it is.

Tales From The Tone Lounge; Vintage Tube Advertising

Marty-I give it two thumbs up.


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Slow night...who would of thought that it would only be me posting.
> 
> Have you ever heard of the "Tone Lizard?" He has a huge library of online sites under the name of, "Tales From Tone Lounge." I have read many of his articles, but I just came across this one. It is very interesting to read if you have the time. There are many hyperlinks that take you to even more stuff such as the origin of many of the tube companies.
> 
> If you like info on tubes, tube testers and NOS tubes from the 50's and 60's, here it is.
> 
> Tales From The Tone Lounge; Vintage Tube Advertising
> 
> Marty-I give it two thumbs up.



Here is another review of the new techtubes:

I received my order today. 2 tubes. Matched triodes on both. (unmatched were sold out at the time of my order - only reason) They went into V2 of my SRRI and my 64 Vibroverb Custom. (Vibrato channel) They replaced a NOS RCA 12AX7 in Vibroverb and the stock Groove Tube 12AX7 in the SRRI. Both amps were set with the volume on 4, treble on 5, bass around 3 - 4, reverb to taste. Bright switch off in the SRRI with my Heritage Les Paul. Bright switch on in the Vibroverb with my Strat.

Right out of the gate I noticed a more robust, girthier tone, that was also VERY detailed, musical, and harmonically rich. As posted previously, these tubes seem to target the mids, upper mids, and highs and don't seem to be that pronounced in the lower mids and lows. I concur. I enjoyed that in the SRRI with my Les Paul, (no boom or mud, regardless of pickup selection) and to a certain extent in the Vibroverb with the Strat, but I did have to turn the bass up a bit with the Strat to even things out a bit. (not a biggie, that's what the bass knob is for)

With the amp settings as originally posted, I found that it was VERY easy to like the tone/sound/vibe/ of the Tech Tubes quite a bit more than the stock tubes I tested them against. Pretty much killed the stock GT12AX7 in SRRI, (the GT sounded VERY dull, flat, lifeless, and BOOMY in comparison) and although the NOS RCA 12AX7 is a GREAT sounding tube, the Tech Tube seemed to have more clarity and better harmonics. The NOS RCA 12AX7 seemed a little lackluster in comparison.

These are VERY good sounding tubes, and IMHO some of the best I have tried in new production or NOS as far as tone and dynamics go. VERY robust, musical, harmonically rich, clear, and detailed. I REALLY enjoyed what these tubes did for both amps, and how they seemed to bring out the subtleties in the different pickups/positions used. They remind me a bit of the Telefunkin tubes (I have some) in their clarity and detail, yet they don't seem as "sterile" (hi fi) as some Telefunkins I've used. The Tech Tubes are VERY reponsive as well. I would use them in a heartbeat...................EXCEPT.....

Unfortunately, as posted earlier, these tubes are REALLY microphonic and noisy. Any sustain on the lower E, A and D strings brings out the metallic tube rattle, tube whistle, and the odd squeal. G, B, and high E strings seem OK, but double stops (anywhere) at anything near gig volume instantly brings out the dreaded tube whistle/metallic rattle. (never really had a tube "whistle" like these do. Very bizzare)

Anyway. Bottom line. GREAT sounding tubes, (and I was VERY serious when I said how GREAT they do sound and that I would use them in a heartbeat), but unfortunately, even in these two Fender amps set pretty much CLEAN, there is still lot's of unwanted noise from these tubes. Too bad, as I REALLY like how they sound.

Not sure what to do now. Maybe contact Tech Tube and see what they say?? (rats)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't believe this guy took all of the time he did to say how wonderful the Tech Tubes were and then turn around and let loose with the microphonics problem. Why not, "I received my tubes, I put "one" each in two amps and they howled like a fother mucker." That would have been more honest. Also, putting one tube in an amp is risky (see manufacturers disclaimer) and the sound that is produced is from a blending of all the tubes used. If you wanted to get picky, you could try one tube in a tube preamp for headphones. This is how some audiophiles listen to music. It is a very pure form. You use one 12AX7 and you can tell the difference between a Raytheon Black Plate and an Amperex 7025. 

However, to put one tube in an amp and write two paragraphs about how good it sounds is ridiculous. In tube rolling, one tube by itself may not sound that good. I mean you have no way of telling , but swapping tubes around you get the sound you are looking for. Sort of like mixing loudspeakers. By themselves they are okay, but mixed together they are great. Same thing with tubes. You may put one in V1 and then another tube in V2 and not be happy. A few tubes later, you have found the combination and it is a blend of all the tubes in the signal path.

I'm sorry, but I would have to say that this guy took an overdose of dummy pills before he posted. His entire report has no credibility and then he ends it on a massive sour note.

Marty


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't believe this guy took all of the time he did to say how wonderful the Tech Tubes were and then turn around and let loose with the microphonics problem. Why not, "I received my tubes, I put "one" each in two amps and they howled like a fother mucker." That would have been more honest. Also, putting one tube in an amp is risky (see manufacturers disclaimer) and the sound that is produced is from a blending of all the tubes used. If you wanted to get picky, you could try one tube in a tube preamp for headphones. This is how some audiophiles listen to music. It is a very pure form. You use one 12AX7 and you can tell the difference between a Raytheon Black Plate and an Amperex 7025.
> 
> However, to put one tube in an amp and write two paragraphs about how good it sounds is ridiculous. In tube rolling, one tube by itself may not sound that good. I mean you have no way of telling , but swapping tubes around you get the sound you are looking for. Sort of like mixing loudspeakers. By themselves they are okay, but mixed together they are great. Same thing with tubes. You may put one in V1 and then another tube in V2 and not be happy. A few tubes later, you have found the combination and it is a blend of all the tubes in the signal path.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I would have to say that this guy took an overdose of dummy pills before he posted. His entire report has no credibility and then he ends it on a massive sour note.
> 
> Marty



Guys there on the thread are seeing these reviews and still ordering them cause despite the ridiculous microphony of the tubes they want so much the new great tones they put out...

What a mixed message though. They sound so good but really are rendered useless due to the microphonics. I don't care how good a tube sounds if I can't use it in my set up. Oh well, I hope these guys are letting the manufacturer know of the problems by giving them feedback. Otherwise it may go unchecked for some time.

Here are 2 more and then I'll quit posting them:

1. I'll be intrigued to see what they do for clients that experience the noise/microphonics that would kill their use in guitar amps. Refund or replacement I think would be the right thing to do, minus shipping fees, of course.

My pair arrive today, and I hear they ship with rubber grommets to kill some of the microphonics, etc.

I'll report back tomorrow or Friday after I haul in a few amps to test out. 


2. I got my matched triode E813CC today. Put it in the PI of my XITS XS with an EF-86. No microphonic problem I preferred it to my smooth plate tele. Seemed like the bass was tighter and the overall sound had more even order harmonics. Put it in V1 of my Bluefire 4 6v6 amp. The Mullard sounded real good in this position so I didn't think the E813CC could beat it. After switching them out several times the E813CC had more even order harmonics and sounded better with my pedals than the Mullard. As this is a single channel clean amp I had no microphonic problems. If you hit it with your finger you get a little noise but no more than most of my Amperex Bugle Boys. I will try it on a gig tonight but so far I'm excited.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello. I got an email from JOSH. He is alive and has been busy. He did want to say, "Hello," to the regulars here on the one and only "Preamp Tubes" thread.

Joe, I got to tell you that it is going to be some time before I try any of these Tech Tubes. There were some posts that I didn't copy and paste here on our thread. Three reports and all three had defective tubes. Now I will say this, when Mullard sold their "name" they also sold their tube making process. This just came to me recently while I was looking at one of the new tubes. What this means is that New Sensor holds the rights on how a Mullard tube is/was made. Tech Tube had to come up with a completely different design so as not to be sued. That is why these tubes have the two "cowbell" looking plates and other odd manufacturing techniques. It was all done to get around the legal issues. That's great, but you put yourself in a position where your "new" design has flaws. I think that the "radical" plate design is responsible for all of the microphonics. I know that Tech Tube tested these tubes and said, "We got a problem, Houston." "Oh well, we'll sell them anyways." I still do not think that Tech Tube has done a full production run. If so, I would like to know the amount of tubes they produced and the amount that failed their factory testing. The testing must be lame if all of these people are getting bad tubes. I think that is a shitty way of doing business.

I think what would have been better is if Mullard could have made a copy of an old Mullard and spiced it up with better materials and tighter quality control. What they've had to do is make a five wheeled car, because they lost the rights to make a four wheeled one. You don't need a five wheeled car, especially when it keeps loosing a wheel or two.

I still wish them well. They need to clean up their act and realize that they have a lot of improving to do. Maybe it will be like the Chinese tubes. 1st generation sucked, 2nd generation was better and 3rd generation was the home run out of the ballpark.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello. I got an email from JOSH. He is alive and has been busy. He did want to say, "Hello," to the regulars here on the one and only "Preamp Tubes" thread.
> 
> Joe, I got to tell you that it is going to be some time before I try any of these Tech Tubes. There were some posts that I didn't copy and paste here on our thread. Three reports and all three had defective tubes. Now I will say this, when Mullard sold their "name" they also sold their tube making process. This just came to me recently while I was looking at one of the new tubes. What this means is that New Sensor holds the rights on how a Mullard tube is/was made. Tech Tube had to come up with a completely different design so as not to be sued. That is why these tubes have the two "cowbell" looking plates and other odd manufacturing techniques. It was all done to get around the legal issues. That's great, but you put yourself in a position where your "new" design has flaws. I think that the "radical" plate design is responsible for all of the microphonics. I know that Tech Tube tested these tubes and said, "We got a problem, Houston." "Oh well, we'll sell them anyways." I still do not think that Tech Tube has done a full production run. If so, I would like to know the amount of tubes they produced and the amount that failed their factory testing. The testing must be lame if all of these people are getting bad tubes. I think that is a shitty way of doing business.
> 
> I think what would have been better is if Mullard could have made a copy of an old Mullard and spiced it up with better materials and tighter quality control. What they've had to do is make a five wheeled car, because they lost the rights to make a four wheeled one. You don't need a five wheeled car, especially when it keeps loosing a wheel or two.
> 
> I still wish them well. They need to clean up their act and realize that they have a lot of improving to do. Maybe it will be like the Chinese tubes. 1st generation sucked, 2nd generation was better and 3rd generation was the home run out of the ballpark.
> 
> Marty



Hey Josh! Welcome back.

Nice write up Marty. Puts it all into perspective. Yeah hopefully Tech Tube will work out the kinks and get a decent performing tube for us guitar guys.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think I ever got over my first dealings with Chinese tubes. I remember when I worked in a music shop back in the early 90's, we'd get tube amps in and you had to cross your fingers the first time you fired one up. I've literally had 12AX7's go off like flashbulbs. Tech Tube is going to have to convince me before I buy. I already have plenty of tubes that would be great tubes if they weren't microphonic as hell.

I remember visiting St. Louis Music back around '93 (sorry, it's late and I'm reminiscing). That was back when Lee Jackson and Ampeg came out with the VL series, which were actually pretty decent amps. He walked through our group one day carrying a handful of power tubes, and they were all GE boxes. I thought that said a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if he had GE tubes in 93, they were buy outs. Any company that still needed tubes were scrambling for tube sources. Some companies set a limit on the number of amps they made based on the amount of tubes they had. Peavey is a great example of this. They bought out huge stashes of Sylvania tubes. I have a Peavey MACE that uses six, 6L6GC's. Guess what, it is a cathode biased amp and it still has the factory Sylvania Fat Bottle tubes. Holy Hogwash! I pulled them all and everyone was within 2 points of each other. The weakest tube measured 88 and the strongest was 90. Now that's a matched set of six tubes. (Actually that old MACE is one loud fother mucker. It does 70's rock really well.)

Did you know that B-52's use a shit load of 5881/6L6's? It's true. They also use a bunch of dual triodes like 12AT7's, 12AU7's and 12AX7's. Did you know the US Government is sitting on a mega stash of tubes? Yep. They bought all these various tubes in huge buy outs. The Air Force is still using the B-52 so they got to have tubes to keep them flying. (Man I'd like to break in where they keep all of the 12AX7's. The one's that go into the B-52 are 12AX7WA's. These are tubes that are built like a brick shed. Perfect for combo's and abusive guitarists. Plus they last over 5,000 hours. I have a few of them, but some people say that they don't sound as good as a regular 12AX7. Even if that is/was true, they would still be a great V3 or V4 tube.

I lived in Phoenix for almost twenty years. General Motors had its mega test facility in the desert south of Mesa, AZ. It shut down 4 years ago. They had a massive auction and people bought various items. Imagine my shock when I saw on eBay a guy selling NOS, NIB 12AX7(A) RCA tubes. He had bought over 4,000 of them. All were top notch tubes certified by RCA for GM's test equipment. This guy sold all of these tubes and bought himself an Italian sports car on the profits he made. I tried to buy some, but people were paying crazy money for these tubes. I think he was getting around $45 a tube. (45 X 4,000 = $180,000) I emailed him several times. He got the tubes for just over a dollar a piece. Wow! Makes you kind of pale. Why him and not me?

Right now, there are still stashes of tubes. Some may be forgotten. I know that you guys share the same feelings I do about tubes. It's so cool when you find some in an old amp and they say, "Made In Holland" on them. Nothing like getting an old Fisher tube receiver and going gaa-gaa over the Telefunkens that are in the amp.

Yeah, right now the NOS market is really healthy, maybe a little pricey, but there is just about anything you want for sale right now.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if he had GE tubes in 93, they were buy outs. Any company that still needed tubes were scrambling for tube sources. Some companies set a limit on the number of amps they made based on the amount of tubes they had. Peavey is a great example of this. They bought out huge stashes of Sylvania tubes. I have a Peavey MACE that uses six, 6L6GC's. Guess what, it is a cathode biased amp and it still has the factory Sylvania Fat Bottle tubes. Holy Hogwash! I pulled them all and everyone was within 2 points of each other. The weakest tube measured 88 and the strongest was 90. Now that's a matched set of six tubes. (Actually that old MACE is one loud fother mucker. It does 70's rock really well.)
> 
> Did you know that B-52's use a shit load of 5881/6L6's? It's true. They also use a bunch of dual triodes like 12AT7's, 12AU7's and 12AX7's. Did you know the US Government is sitting on a mega stash of tubes? Yep. They bought all these various tubes in huge buy outs. The Air Force is still using the B-52 so they got to have tubes to keep them flying. (Man I'd like to break in where they keep all of the 12AX7's. The one's that go into the B-52 are 12AX7WA's. These are tubes that are built like a brick shed. Perfect for combo's and abusive guitarists. Plus they last over 5,000 hours. I have a few of them, but some people say that they don't sound as good as a regular 12AX7. Even if that is/was true, they would still be a great V3 or V4 tube.
> 
> I lived in Phoenix for almost twenty years. General Motors had its mega test facility in the desert south of Mesa, AZ. It shut down 4 years ago. They had a massive auction and people bought various items. Imagine my shock when I saw on eBay a guy selling NOS, NIB 12AX7(A) RCA tubes. He had bought over 4,000 of them. All were top notch tubes certified by RCA for GM's test equipment. This guy sold all of these tubes and bought himself an Italian sports car on the profits he made. I tried to buy some, but people were paying crazy money for these tubes. I think he was getting around $45 a tube. (45 X 4,000 = $180,000) I emailed him several times. He got the tubes for just over a dollar a piece. Wow! Makes you kind of pale. Why him and not me?
> 
> Right now, there are still stashes of tubes. Some may be forgotten. I know that you guys share the same feelings I do about tubes. It's so cool when you find some in an old amp and they say, "Made In Holland" on them. Nothing like getting an old Fisher tube receiver and going gaa-gaa over the Telefunkens that are in the amp.
> 
> Yeah, right now the NOS market is really healthy, maybe a little pricey, but there is just about anything you want for sale right now.
> 
> Marty



Freek'n crazy profit margin there. Wow!

I would love to go through a stock pile of the Gov's 12AX7's. How frigg'n fun would that be!

One man's stock pile is another man's treasure eh? Hehe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: NOS Preamp Tubes? - A Good Investment!*



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Right now, there are still stashes of tubes. Some may be forgotten. I know that you guys share the same feelings I do about tubes. It's so cool when you find some in an old amp and they say, "Made In Holland" on them. Nothing like getting an old Fisher tube receiver and going gaa-gaa over the Telefunkens that are in the amp.
> 
> Yeah, right now the NOS market is really healthy, maybe a little pricey, but there is just about anything you want for sale right now...



A) There's an undeniable small thrill that comes w/ plugging in your modern amp and knowing your still experiencing a piece of history because it's awesome sound can largely be attributed to the fact the tubes you have in are vintage 1950's-1960's. It sounds better in your imagination, and it sounds better in reality... Now that's just plain cool. 

B) When I started playing guitar everyone told me the real investment was a quality instrument and a good vintage amp... I never thought it would turn out that the tubes _in the amp_ would be the actual money making investment!



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I lived in Phoenix for almost twenty years. General Motors had its mega test facility in the desert south of Mesa, AZ. It shut down 4 years ago. They had a massive auction and people bought various items. Imagine my shock when I saw on eBay a guy selling NOS, NIB 12AX7(A) RCA tubes. He had bought over 4,000 of them. All were top notch tubes certified by RCA for GM's test equipment. This guy sold all of these tubes and bought himself an Italian sports car on the profits he made. I tried to buy some, but people were paying crazy money for these tubes. I think he was getting around $45 a tube. (_*$45 X 4,000 = $180,000*_) I emailed him several times. He got the tubes for just over a dollar a piece. Wow! Makes you kind of pale. Why him and not me?...



...  ...


----------



## solarburn

Here is a new review of the Tech Tube by another player:

Ok, I got down to Tone Merchants today to A/B/C/D the Tech Tubes vs my Mullard, Telefunken and Bugle Boy tubes in my 1987 50w Metro plexi clone with SoZo caps, and Mercury Magnetics RS trannies.

The microphonic issues I experienced were noticeable and are most obvious when you turn down the guitar volume with the amp on 7-9 on the volume. Full volume tone was very detailed in the upper mids/treble registers, and the bass was crisp, if not quite as stout as the NOS glass. However turning up the bass knob from 5 to 8 took care of most of that. 

The overall tone of the tube is quite good, though. I think it's a cross between a Mullard and Telefunken when comparing.

The silicon tube condom didn't do anything for the microphonics, however. I played the tubes for about 45 minutes total when comparing (1.5 hour overall) them. 

I did notice that the microphonics slightly lessened during the testing period, though. 

I'm going to put them in my JTM 45 amp I have here and let them burn in overnight, then play them for 4-5 hours and see if the quite down to a usable level. I'll report back later this week.

If I was just going to go on tone, though, they're really, really good, and wouldn't see the need to buy NOS glass again, assuming they last for a long time and don't present other noise/micrphonic issues.
__________________


----------



## joshuaaewallen

It's really the microphonics / reliability thing that is the clincher for me. If they stick around and actually seem to hold up... Then I am game, but if they sound good but fail to hold up... Just not worth it. I'm all for good tubes, but I'm not made out of $$$...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> It's really the microphonics / reliability thing that is the clincher for me. If they stick around and actually seem to hold up... Then I am game, but if they sound good but fail to hold up... Just not worth it. I'm all for good tubes, but I'm not made out of $$$...



This is what Tech Tube said regarding the microphony earlier in the thread there:

Hi there...

In our last note we concentrated on the anode current aspect of the valve. In this
note we would like to review another important aspect of the valve, microphony.

During our brand launch at the Sound and Vision show last September the importance
of microphony was expressed again and again. It is a characteristic that we have
always paid attention to in the new design of the TechTube(tm) valve. Indeed, the
design of today has changed from that original product as we have addressed this
important characteristic.

The design of our planar valve with its low capacitance and minimal structural
restraint results in a valve that has the "creamy, warm, smoooooooth" sound
associated with the best valves of years gone by.

In keeping with our UK and Blackburn heritage for the guitar world it was always a
desire to produce a valve that replicated the traditional "British sound" associated
with the style of Eric Clapton, Pete Townsend and of course Jimi Hendrix. We think
we have achieved that...

During testing and evaluation that we have undertaken with guitar amplifier
manufacturers such as MAT amps and noted guitar players such as Adrian Ingram and
"Slim" from The Hamsters, it is clear that the TechTube(tm) valve has its own unique
characteristics. "The TechTube(tm) valve performance sings", "it's so musical it
adds to the performance of the instrument", "chord separation is very clear", "its
sound is warm and creamy smooth", "very reminiscent of the Eric Clapton sound" are
among the comments made during testing.

But even more, in audio applications the TechTube(tm) valves perform with great
"speed"; "quick responses" and "warmth" according to Geoff Kremer from Proteus Audio
Developments, makers of the Diamond Amplifier series.

All these characteristics are of course a result of the design but there is
something else too in our opinion. If the traditional valve construction is flicked
with a finger, a so called "good" valve sounds dull and lifeless. Most times this
characteristic is passed into the "soul" of the valve and its performance can be
dull, with weak responses in some tonal regions. In an attempt to minimise
microphony the life and soul has been restrained out of the valve.

With the TechTube(tm) valve the minimal structural restraint design allows tiny
amounts of movement in the various components which at times allows a small amount
of microphony when driven hard at high frequencies. This, in our opinion, is
required to give the TechTube(tm) valve its fantastic performance in both guitar and
HiFi applications, its "life and vitality", its "fantastic speed", its "clean chord
separation", its "warmth and smoothness"...

From all in the TechTube(tm) team @ Blackburn


----------



## MartyStrat54

I want them to succeed. I want them to sell thousands of tubes. I want people to buy their tubes...and then the price for NOS will tumble and I will be able to buy all the NOS tubes I want for a quarter a piece. Well maybe not a quarter, but still cheaper than right now.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I want them to succeed. I want them to sell thousands of tubes. I want people to buy their tubes...and then the price for NOS will tumble and I will be able to buy all the NOS tubes I want for a quarter a piece. Well maybe not a quarter, but still cheaper than right now.
> 
> Marty



I like that outcome.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This is what Tech Tube said regarding the microphony earlier in the thread there:
> 
> Hi there...
> 
> ... but there is
> something else too in our opinion. If the traditional valve construction is flicked
> with a finger, a so called "good" valve sounds dull and lifeless. Most times this
> characteristic is passed into the "soul" of the valve and its performance can be
> dull, with weak responses in some tonal regions. In an attempt to minimise
> microphony the life and soul has been restrained out of the valve.
> 
> With the TechTube(tm) valve the minimal structural restraint design allows tiny
> amounts of movement in the various components which at times allows a small amount
> of microphony when driven hard at high frequencies. This, in our opinion, is
> required to give the TechTube(tm) valve its fantastic performance in both guitar and
> HiFi applications, its "life and vitality", its "fantastic speed", its "clean chord
> separation", its "warmth and smoothness"...
> 
> From all in the TechTube(tm) team @ Blackburn



So... The soul of this valve would be sacrificed by making it less microphonic and more reliable? No offense, but give me a break. That's ludicrous. NOS valves sound awesome _and_ are _reliable!_


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> So... The soul of this valve would be sacrificed by making it less microphonic and more reliable? No offense, but give me a break. That's ludicrous.



Our NOS are soulless tubes...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Our NOS are soulless tubes...



... Who needs soul? Come... Join the darkside, or be DESTROYED!!!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Who needs soul? Come... Join the darkside, or be DESTROYED!!!



I will slice through you with my microphonic Light Saber!!!!!!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I will slice through you with my microphonic Light Saber!!!!!!!!



But first, there is something you should know...


----------



## MartyStrat54

What Tube Tech said about their tubes:

1.If you cover shit with pine needles, all you have is pine smelling shit. It's still shit and if you step in it, you will know it's shit.

2.Microphony is acceptable. Do not believe what you have heard or read in regard to the history of 12AX7 style tubes. Sure...an Amperex 7025 is a very nice, low noise tube, but it is dull and lifeless compared to our tubes that howl like a banshee at half volume. This howling is necessary to breathe life into our tubes. It should not be viewed as a defect in the design.

3.We are all out of "balanced" tubes. We are only selling "unbalanced" one's. This is due to the fact that we are selling off the initial batch of tubes that were manufactured. It is not known at this time when more tubes will be made.

4.We reserve the right to modify our comments in regard to #2. We may slightly change the design of the next batch to address the microphonics. If we succeed, please ignore #2.



Yeah baby. Nothing like bending the truth. These guys should be paddled and put to bed without any supper.

Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

What else? This is more Tech Tube feedback. It is addressing number 2 above.

HRI :: View topic - Tada... Tubes from Blackburn / Mullards

Excerpt from Tech Tube answering a customer's complaint.

Title: Re: Mullard Comeback!!!!
Post by No Regrets on 03/27/09 at 15:56:35 Hello all,

I just received the following update from the tech team at Blackburn that you may find of interest....


Hi there,

It’s now been three months since our last notice and activity has been frantic and very productive but as yet the elusive solution is not quite ready for public unveiling. Despite the economic downturn our drive to launch the new TechTube™ valve technology is not diminished. We still have full management backing and are getting closer to the specification we have set ourselves.

Our target for the E813CC valve is to have every triode and consequently every valve with an Ip current within a band from 0.8mA to 1.2mA. We targeted this band after benchmarking several competitor valves. The benchmark analysis showed that current valve production has Ip ranging between 0.7mA and 1.6mA, even though the data sheet specification is 1mA! Within a valve, the triode to triode variation ranges from nothing (both triodes having the same output) to 0.5mA difference between triodes.

NOS valves perform better having Ip varying between 0.7mA and 1.3mA. Mullard NOS (Blackburn production) have excellent within valve (triode to triode) variations of less than 0.1mA against a norm of 0.25mA. Sovtek have a slightly wider triode to triode variation of 0.25mA but valve to valve they are very consistent with all the valves we tested falling between 0.95mA and 1.4mA.

Currently, our Ip ranges from 0.75mA to 1.5mA, too much variation considering our claim that we are benchmarked against the Blackburn Mullard valve. We continue to work on the factors that give this variation and are near to a resolution.

The other characteristic that we needed to improve upon according to feedback from the September show is microphony. Again we benchmarked several valves already in the field, both current production and NOS. Once again the variation seen was incredible. It’s no wonder end users complain about inconsistent performance!! Over the months the team has been working on this problem, we have come to know how valves shake, rattle and role in intimate detail. Our use of high speed cameras, differing construction techniques and numerous mechanical designs has led us in several directions. Unfortunately even though most were successful in removing microphony they created problems with other characteristics of the valve and consequently they have been scrapped. The down side of this process is that time moves on. Our knowledge base is rapidly increasing but that elusive solution that can be industrialised and automated is still to be found. We continue with numerous parallel paths and the team continues to work hard. 

As a result of these factors we will not be in a position to launch the web sales to our plan of April this year. The team continues to work hard on the problems and we will keep you informed as we move through April and probably May.



From all in the TechTube™ team @ Blackburn

So in other words, they are still in the developmental stage. They can't get their tubes to be as consistent as a Sovtek, let alone a real Mullard NOS. As I speculated in earlier comments, I stated that they would still release the tube even though "management" knew they were faulty. That's good for business isn't it? What's more, is they are now sold out. They must have gotten those 2,000 tubes sold, defective or not. They are frantically trying to rid the tubes of microphony without killing the tone of the tube. The problem is what I said earlier. They had to come up with a design that did not infringe on New Sensor's rights (of Mullard and their old design). This "new" design is flawed. They may get the electronic values within guidelines, but I doubt if they will ever be able to rid the tube of its microphonics problem. The entire design lends itself to ring, ring, ring. Imagine, 4 months ago people were speculating that these new tubes would be quiet like no other. WRONG!

If they have a PR department, they must be working overtime.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I got a kick outta this guy's comments HRI :: View topic - Tada... Tubes from Blackburn / Mullards...



> *mentoneman wrote:* uh oh...
> 
> "The input stage of some guitar amplifiers can swamp this sensitivity generating microphony so we recommend you not to use this release of TechTube™ valve in this first valve position without using one of the many dampening devices available"
> 
> 
> 
> "swamp" = mud
> 
> "many dampening devices" = what the????
> 
> i've been playing guitar for over 20 years and have yet to hear about ONE "dampening device" designed to counteract the "swamping" effect caused by "sensitive microphony" that occurs when too immaculate a ecc83 preamp tube is placed in V1.
> 
> *
> "it's not our tube's fault, it's your amp's fault.." *
> 
> 
> 
> spider senses tingling...
> 
> My bullsh** meter is going as well, particularly when you read about the checkered design process. I'm guessing they couldn't do it and this is a disclaimer so they don't have to refund you. Mmmm smells bad.
Click to expand...

Couldn't help it... Just made me chuckle.


----------



## RiverRatt

I feel like I'm hijacking, but here goes. Has anyone here had any experience with the RFT 7025A, like the ones I just picked up on eBay?
I was under the impression that 7025's were like a high tolerance, low noise version of a 12AX7/ECC83. 
These RFT's really seem to be hotter than that. I tried one in the Blackheart Little Giant and it significantly lowered the headroom - the Little Giant has a single preamp tube and a single EL84 output tube. I've got a Shugang EL84, a Sylvania 6BQ5, a Sovtek EL84/6BQ5, and a JJ EL84 and none of them had a problem with headroom in that amp before. With the 7025A as the preamp tube, this thing sounds like a mini-Marshall. there's really no clean. When you get it loud enough to hear well, it already has an edge to the tone. Not that I'm complaining... it's a good sound, just not what I expected with a 7025. 

The seller measured the tubes at 39-39 and 39-40 on a Hickok TV-7B. I'm not familiar enough with the different testers to know apples from oranges. Marty, I'm really curious to know what these would read on your tester (the seller used a Hickok TV-7B IIRC). I am getting good results with these in V2 on the Marshall with one of my lower-output RCA's in V1. Also, the 7025A's are not noticeably microphonic. 
I guess about all I can do is get a known lower gain 7025 and compare them. If anyone has a decent 7025 like I'm describing that they could part with, pm me. I'm going to try to find something by the end of this week.

My last statement on Techtubes:



I really think Aspen Pittman can out-Mullard these guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I feel like I'm hijacking, but here goes. Has anyone here had any experience with the RFT 7025A, like the ones I just picked up on eBay?
> I was under the impression that 7025's were like a high tolerance, low noise version of a 12AX7/ECC83.
> These RFT's really seem to be hotter than that. I tried one in the Blackheart Little Giant and it significantly lowered the headroom - the Little Giant has a single preamp tube and a single EL84 output tube. I've got a Shugang EL84, a Sylvania 6BQ5, a Sovtek EL84/6BQ5, and a JJ EL84 and none of them had a problem with headroom in that amp before. With the 7025A as the preamp tube, this thing sounds like a mini-Marshall. there's really no clean. When you get it loud enough to hear well, it already has an edge to the tone. Not that I'm complaining... it's a good sound, just not what I expected with a 7025.
> 
> The seller measured the tubes at 39-39 and 39-40 on a Hickok TV-7B. I'm not familiar enough with the different testers to know apples from oranges. Marty, I'm really curious to know what these would read on your tester (the seller used a Hickok TV-7B IIRC). I am getting good results with these in V2 on the Marshall with one of my lower-output RCA's in V1. Also, the 7025A's are not noticeably microphonic.
> I guess about all I can do is get a known lower gain 7025 and compare them. If anyone has a decent 7025 like I'm describing that they could part with, pm me. I'm going to try to find something by the end of this week.
> 
> My last statement on Techtubes:
> 
> 
> 
> I really think Aspen Pittman can out-Mullard these guys.



Joe and I have done a little tube swapping and I ended up with one of his RFT 12AX7's. The tube measured 32/32 on my tester. This puts it in the high gain category. 7025's are quiet tubes, but they can be high gain as well. That's why I recommend a "medium" gain 7025 in V1 and a high gainer in V2. If you go with a high gain in V1 and V2, you will have a screaming Marshall, but the clean will be more crunchy than clean. Yes, for your Blackheart, you will probably want a more milder 7025. I have some 7025's that are too hot for any amp. They are basically useless, because they are so hot.

The TV-7 goes as 32 being the minimum. A small change in the value will result in a lot stronger tube. Your 7025's measured higher, but really not that high. Generally a TV-7 reading of 50 denotes a strong tube. 

I have many 7025's. Are you interested in one?

Marty


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I feel like I'm hijacking, but here goes. Has anyone here had any experience with the RFT 7025A, like the ones I just picked up on eBay?
> I was under the impression that 7025's were like a high tolerance, low noise version of a 12AX7/ECC83.
> These RFT's really seem to be hotter than that. I tried one in the Blackheart Little Giant and it significantly lowered the headroom - the Little Giant has a single preamp tube and a single EL84 output tube. I've got a Shugang EL84, a Sylvania 6BQ5, a Sovtek EL84/6BQ5, and a JJ EL84 and none of them had a problem with headroom in that amp before. With the 7025A as the preamp tube, this thing sounds like a mini-Marshall. there's really no clean. When you get it loud enough to hear well, it already has an edge to the tone. Not that I'm complaining... it's a good sound, just not what I expected with a 7025.
> 
> The seller measured the tubes at 39-39 and 39-40 on a Hickok TV-7B. I'm not familiar enough with the different testers to know apples from oranges. Marty, I'm really curious to know what these would read on your tester (the seller used a Hickok TV-7B IIRC). I am getting good results with these in V2 on the Marshall with one of my lower-output RCA's in V1. Also, the 7025A's are not noticeably microphonic.
> I guess about all I can do is get a known lower gain 7025 and compare them. If anyone has a decent 7025 like I'm describing that they could part with, pm me. I'm going to try to find something by the end of this week.
> 
> My last statement on Techtubes:
> 
> 
> 
> I really think Aspen Pittman can out-Mullard these guys.




When I rolled one of my RFT's in the NT I lost clean headroom for sure. Early breakup is what I got. I traded a JP 12AX7WA in that spot and moved the RFT into the PI. The JP is lower gain and more mid focused & not as dark. I got back the clean headroom and it was a winning pair. The RFT still added a little darkness/warmth even in the PI. 

The NT is a bright amp so that was a welcome outcome. The RFT EL84's helped smooth it out even more yet added a little jet afterburner if ya know what I mean. If it only came with 1 more 12AX7 and 2 more power tubes...:eek2:

Another way I mix V1 & V2 is say like I want as much of the tonal character as I can get out of 1 12AX7 but I still don't want to over run the clean channel as much as if I put 2 high gainers in. The way I get the most out of an RFT12AX7 in the Marshall is to stick it in V1 and then put a lower gain in V2. The cleans not as clean as switching that combo around like Marty touts(which I agree with)but it is good enough and you get to enjoy the full tonal character of the high gainer in V1. 

I noticed the tonal character of the RFT in V1 more than in V2 and it sounds great on the Marshall. You put 2 high gainers in those first 2 slots and you notice the difference on the clean/crunch channel for sure.

Right now I'm experimenting with a JP12AX7WA in V1 and a 7025(22-23)in V2 which has turned out to make really nice midgain blues rock tones and the cleans remain clean. Its very articulate. I have another 7025 that tested at 30-27 and with it in V1 or V2 you know its a high gainer hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looking at what Joe said, I remember him posting some of his comments a few pages back (damn thread is long). I knew that he had stated that his RFT 12AX7's were hot tubes. I will bring this up one more time. I sent Josh a tube that was 35-35 on my tester and it was too much for his amp. I've come to realize that 30-30 is about as high as "I" want to go. Someone else may be happy with say a 32-32. I've found that the higher the number in V1, the less clean headroom and the less clean sound. Trying to hone in on that perfect mix of tubes that gives you a super clean and also a bad ass crunch/lead is something that I have obtained so far in several of my amps. 

Of course my TSL122 is being worked on, but it has a GE 7025 Black Plate from 1959 in V1 and it is a 25-24 tube. That seems to be the magic number. You can go a little lower or higher, but 25-25 would be perfect. I then have an Amperex 29-28 in V2. In V3 and V4 I have Sylvania's. The power section is four, RFT EL34's. I can't wait to get her back. She sounds really sweet.

I have tried stouter tubes in V2, but it takes away from the clean channel. If I bump up to say a 30-31 Amperex, it's still okay, but you can tell there's a high gainer in V2. 29-28 is still stout, but 30-31 is stouter. If you don't need a super clean channel and you play with a crunchier style, this would be the way to go. I guess I am sort of impressed by the quality of the clean channel you can obtain with NOS tubes. Most Marshall's from the factory do not have a clean channel like what I have on several of my amps. One of my 602's has an almost 6L6 sound in the clean channel. This is the one that has a pair of xf3 Mullard EL34's. It also has the JBL D123 speakers. These speakers are only rated at 50 watts a piece, but they have a real deep bottom end and extended highs. They were originally designed for full range hi fi use. They have an extremely shallow cone and a three-inch voice coil. I truly believe they add to the super clean sound. (I wish I could get my hands on some more of them Mullard EL34's.) My 602 is one of my main testing amps, because I play it more and it is loaded down with more goodies. Joe-You would love this amp.

Just think, if we were all rich we would be debating about which Telefunken tube was better, the smooth or the ribbed plate. Hey, I'm happy with a Sylvania and a Raytheon. It's like I said a hundred times. There is no comparison between a NOS tube and anything currently being made, including Tech Tube.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I'm going to post these periodically so we can see what people are experiencing with Tech Tube tubes. Since these guys are testing them out for the rest of us why not follow the results here and there...This is a guy I have already posted prior who found them squeal'n and reel'n the first time he sampled. Now he burns them in for awhile to see if it makes a difference...


I'll be the first to admit I know enough about NOS glass to be dangerous. Seems like I scored a Mullard at Bugle Boy prices, so I'm not complaining.

Today I put the new Tech Tubes in my Major Crunch amp this morning and turned the amp on 10, left the guitar plugged in on 10, and hooked it up to my ISO cab with a speaker in it.
Southbay Ampworks Amp Specifications

One channel is old school vol/tone, with a tone like a beefed up Champ. The other is a 3 band EQ with a modded Fender tone stack with a tone stack bypass with two modes via capacitor (one of single coils/fatter, one for buckers/more upper mids/treble).

When using the vol/tone channel, there's not one problem, that I could find. No noise, no microphonics, nothing.

The other channel is where the noises start. It was horrendous for hours. I checked on them every hour or so since 10 am when I put them in. At 3:30 pm they still whistled, screamed, banshee noises, you name it.

I pulled them out, put in two Amperex Bugle Boys (sorry there I go again Timbre Wolf!), glorious awesome tone was back.

A prospective client calls. We talk about speakers & the Tech Tubes. Told him what was happening, then I decided to put them back in so he could hear them over the phone. I warned him they would squeal and rip his head off.

And then nothing. The noise stopped...completely. I can't make them do anything wrong now.

Before they did this right off the bat whether they were cold, hot, whatever.

They've been back in for about 30 minutes now, amp on 10, guitar on 10. They quit doing anything weird.

I'm going to keep them burning in for a few more hours and test them again, just to make sure it's not a fluke. But if this is what SuperReverb2 did, then I guess these tubes need to burn in for about 5-6 hours, and then they'll be fine.

I'll report back later on tonight to update this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes Joe. Keep posting these responses from other forums. I think they are really helpful.

The only problem I have with this last incident is that if the tubes were squealing "like a banshee" (one of my favorite sayings BTW) for hours at a time and he finally pulled them. Why did they suddenly stop squealing when he put them back in again? I have to wonder about this matter? You buy the tubes and all you have to do is run them at full volume for 12 hours and then turn off the amp. Later, you can turn the amp back on and the tubes will now run at factory specs. Ha-ha-ha

I'll bet Tech Tube wishes all they had to do was burn the tubes in longer than whatever they are doing now. Good grief, what if they are burning them in for 100 hours and it still doesn't help? It's obvious to me (and I've said this before) that it didn't matter to Tech Tube as they sold the howling tubes anyway.

I find it hard to believe this guy. If it's true, then I've never heard anything like it before. I mean a tube that was howling that bad and all of a sudden for no reason starts working perfectly. Hard for me to believe.

I really wonder sometimes about these people who are on these forums. This guy could have made this whole thing up, another head-trip post by some freak who doesn't even have the equipment that he claims he has. "Oh, my Tech Tubes were horrible, but I "baked" them for 12 hours and now they are fine." There are probably a hundred Tech Tube buyers who are following his instructions only to realize that their tubes are going to continue to howl like a banshee and no amount of "baking" them is going to cure it.

Marty


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## amilcar_rom

*Mill Tones Music Techs in Houston (713)510-8393*

preamp tubes can last up to 10 years ,power tubes can last up to a year , all depends on usage & phisical care,I will recommend you to drop your amp for check up at Mill Tones Music Techs LLC , 2724 crossview dr suite 108, Houston Tx 77063, (713)510-8393


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Mill Tones Music Techs in Houston (713)510-8393*



amilcar_rom said:


> preamp tubes can last up to 10 years ,power tubes can last up to a year , all depends on usage & phisical care,I will recommend you to drop your amp for check up at Mill Tones Music Techs LLC , 2724 crossview dr suite 108, Houston Tx 77063, (713)510-8393



No problem. That's just about a 10 hour drive from Kansas City. That preamp tube that lasts 10 years? Is it a 12AX7WA/JAN? I know it's not a Sovtek. And phisical is spelled physical. Hey Joe! Why not hop behind the wheel and drive on down to Houston?

You can tell times are really getting tough...for us all.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Mill Tones Music Techs in Houston (713)510-8393*



amilcar_rom said:


> preamp tubes can last up to 10 years ,power tubes can last up to a year , all depends on usage & phisical care,I will recommend you to drop your amp for check up at Mill Tones Music Techs LLC , 2724 crossview dr suite 108, Houston Tx 77063, (713)510-8393



I feel like I was just watching TV and a commercial came on...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes Joe. Keep posting these responses from other forums. I think they are really helpful.
> 
> The only problem I have with this last incident is that if the tubes were squealing "like a banshee" (one of my favorite sayings BTW) for hours at a time and he finally pulled them. Why did they suddenly stop squealing when he put them back in again? I have to wonder about this matter? You buy the tubes and all you have to do is run them at full volume for 12 hours and then turn off the amp. Later, you can turn the amp back on and the tubes will now run at factory specs. Ha-ha-ha
> 
> I'll bet Tech Tube wishes all they had to do was burn the tubes in longer than whatever they are doing now. Good grief, what if they are burning them in for 100 hours and it still doesn't help? It's obvious to me (and I've said this before) that it didn't matter to Tech Tube as they sold the howling tubes anyway.
> 
> I find it hard to believe this guy. If it's true, then I've never heard anything like it before. I mean a tube that was howling that bad and all of a sudden for no reason starts working perfectly. Hard for me to believe.
> 
> I really wonder sometimes about these people who are on these forums. This guy could have made this whole thing up, another head-trip post by some freak who doesn't even have the equipment that he claims he has. "Oh, my Tech Tubes were horrible, but I "baked" them for 12 hours and now they are fine." There are probably a hundred Tech Tube buyers who are following his instructions only to realize that their tubes are going to continue to howl like a banshee and no amount of "baking" them is going to cure it.
> 
> Marty



There are 2 of them on that thread that have stated they had this happen to them after some burn in time. They need to buy a bunch more and run their burn in procedure and see what happens then. I think everyone would need to do this and report back otherwise it remains suspect. I've never heard of anyone baking the microphony out of a tube.:eek2:


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## MartyStrat54

How the tube is made is what can cause microphonics. We all know that short plates have the toughest build and it is a tube that can take a lot of abuse. When internal parts "move" this creates the unwanted oscillations known as microphonics. Baking or burning in a tube is not going to stop these parts from moving. Some of the best NOS tubes used a construction method known as "triple mica spacers." These tubes were very rigid and quiet. The Tech Tube has internal components that look like small bells. I just can't help but think the problem lies within these "bells." The bells are actually the plates, but instead of being flat (like a plate), these new plates are shaped like a bell. Well bell's ring and so does the Tech Tube. They may have to scrap this entire design to get it in the right direction. They've already admitted that it has flaws (yup, but we sold them anyways). They have like three or four teams doing research on stopping the microphonics. It's that big of a problem. Your paying out the nose for employing all of these teams and your first "small" batch was a bust. I don't think this is how they planned it.

Marty


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## MartyStrat54

Well this is supposedly the

700th POST ON THIS THREAD!!!



Things have quieted down some, but that's because after the testing you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I'm still at it. I acquired 20 more tubes. Four of them Amperex's (one is probably too hot for an amp) and 12 mint Raytheon Black Plates and 4 high test Sylvania's. One of my favorite sellers is dumping a boat load of 12AX7's on EBAY. Wouldn't you know it, he's an organ repairman. He gets hundreds of old organs and guts them out for parts. Like I said before, some of these organs contained 2 or 3 dozen 12AX7's. Depending on the brand, a lot used Raytheon Black Plates. His second wave of auctions is in the next 3 to 4 days. I will be watching and waiting to bid. How about mint BP's for $11 each? Well that's what I paid and they have already arrived and they have been tested. They all get an A+.
They all don't come cheap, as I paid $63 for a pair of Amperex. I also bought 2 Mullards out of a 1973 Traynor amp. Again, one of the tubes is like 28-46. All I can do is try it and see what happens. It ain't gonna blow anything up, but it might feedback just a wee bit. Anyway, I am aiming to get more BP's as they tend to be a real fav in a Marshall amp. Imagine a 7025 and three BP's? Wonder what that would sound like? Well there I go again wondering what if?

Marty-700th post on the ultimate Preamp Tube Thread.

Just realized that this is also my 900th post on the forum. Funny that it worked out that way.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well this is supposedly the
> 
> 700th POST ON THIS THREAD!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Things have quieted down some, but that's because after the testing you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I'm still at it. I acquired 20 more tubes. Four of them Amperex's (one is probably too hot for an amp) and 12 mint Raytheon Black Plates and 4 high test Sylvania's. One of my favorite sellers is dumping a boat load of 12AX7's on EBAY. Wouldn't you know it, he's an organ repairman. He gets hundreds of old organs and guts them out for parts. Like I said before, some of these organs contained 2 or 3 dozen 12AX7's. Depending on the brand, a lot used Raytheon Black Plates. His second wave of auctions is in the next 3 to 4 days. I will be watching and waiting to bid. How about mint BP's for $11 each? Well that's what I paid and they have already arrived and they have been tested. They all get an A+.
> They all don't come cheap, as I paid $63 for a pair of Amperex. I also bought 2 Mullards out of a 1973 Traynor amp. Again, one of the tubes is like 28-46. All I can do is try it and see what happens. It ain't gonna blow anything up, but it might feedback just a wee bit. Anyway, I am aiming to get more BP's as they tend to be a real fav in a Marshall amp. Imagine a 7025 and three BP's? Wonder what that would sound like? Well there I go again wondering what if?
> 
> Marty-700th post on the ultimate Preamp Tube Thread.
> 
> Just realized that this is also my 900th post on the forum. Funny that it worked out that way.



Yeah Haw!!! And its still go'n strong...

Did you just say Raytheon BP's? Gee...I wonder who else digs those too?

If you need me to test a 7025 and 3 BP's I'd be glad to do that for you. You know, so you won't have to wonder any more...

Seriously though if you get any extra of those and want to sell a couple let the Sun Burn know.

Freek'n love this thread!


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## RiverRatt

Marty, I PM'ed you about the medium gain 7025. Send me some info.


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## RiverRatt

Ok, help me out, guys. I don't have a lot of money to spend on tubes right now. I'd say I've got my DSL's tone to about 90% of where I want it. I've got the two hot RFTs in V1 and V2, and RCA gray plates in V3 & V4. Would I notice more of an improvement in tone replacing my GTEL34M's with a pair of RFT EL34's, or putting a lower gain 7025 in V1? I know this is probably impossible to know without trying, but I thought you guys might be able to point out the pro's and con's of each.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Ok, help me out, guys. I don't have a lot of money to spend on tubes right now. I'd say I've got my DSL's tone to about 90% of where I want it. I've got the two hot RFTs in V1 and V2, and RCA gray plates in V3 & V4. Would I notice more of an improvement in tone replacing my GTEL34M's with a pair of RFT EL34's, or putting a lower gain 7025 in V1? I know this is probably impossible to know without trying, but I thought you guys might be able to point out the pro's and con's of each.



First question? How is your clean channel with the 2 hot RFT's in V1 and V2?

A medium 7025 is going to really clean this up. Most of my customers from the forum are running a 7025 in V1. There are some others running 12AX7A Raytheon Black Plates for V1 and then an Amperex or a Mullard in V2. Do you use your clean that much? On one of my rigs the amp is set to clean and I run a DigiTech RP12 into the front end. All of the effects and distortion are generated by the RP12. For this to work right, I need a super clean and I get it by running a medium gain 7025 into a high gain 7025. (How do you like them apples?) Yes that's right, two 7025's in V1 and V2. Oh, I've tried it without the RP12. It's a real ass ripper. This is my 602 #2 with the Carlos Santana Altec 417's in it (12-inch alnico speakers). 

Unless you play a lot in the clean mode, you may not notice the effects of a medium gain 7025. If my memory serves me right, both of your RFT's are 7025's. So you are running two 7025's side by side, it's just they are hot tubes. Is that right?

The main thing you get with the RFT34's is a much tighter bottom end. I just sold Joe a pair of RFT EL34's and maybe he will comment. The RFT EL34's are not only tighter, they are smooth across the guitar audio range. They are very well constructed and do not have the "rattle" that so many current production EL34's have. 

Give me some more info and we should get you dialed in.

Marty


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## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ok, help me out, guys. I don't have a lot of money to spend on tubes right now. I'd say I've got my DSL's tone to about 90% of where I want it. I've got the two hot RFTs in V1 and V2, and RCA gray plates in V3 & V4. Would I notice more of an improvement in tone replacing my GTEL34M's with a pair of RFT EL34's, or putting a lower gain 7025 in V1? I know this is probably impossible to know without trying, but I thought you guys might be able to point out the pro's and con's of each.



I think you should get 1 7025 that is medium gain so you can see how that translates in your amp. If I want to check the tonal character of a tube I will put it in V1 and have a lower gain in V2. This way I can hear all of the gain and all of the tubes tone character better. I feel V1 is a more dominant slot and will show more of the tubes characteristics there.

Once I know what that tube has to offer I can then decide if I want it in V1 or V2. If the tube in V1 is a higher gain tube it will effect the clean especially if V2 is a higher gain too. If V2 is a medium gain V1 will not over run the cleans I find and you still get to enjoy all the tonal character of like say an RFT 12AX7. If you have a medium gain in V1 and lets say an RFT in V2 you may find some of that great character in the RFT is diminished some because V1 is the more dominant slot IMO. Either way V1 or V2 are the deciding slots for me as to what characteristics I prefer in a tube coming through. 

Now this is how I find out more about the tubes tone as well as how much gain it has. It doesn't mean I leave it that way.

Like Marty has found I too have had the medium gain/V1 & higher gain/V2 turn out very good. So I have at least a couple of those combination's I prefer.

With my RFT 12AX7 I like it better in V1 because I get more of its character coming through than the other way around. Same goes with my JP12AX7WA. 

Both ways of lining V1 & V2 up with medium/high gain combination's help the clean not get over run or break up earlier. Now if you want that earlier break up and more crunchiness in the crunch channel I'd put in 2 high gainers in V1 & V2.

The RFT EL34's are just going to be something you will want to do at some time. Very nice! They sound better the more volume given them. Honestly I could go without them and be happy with my Sed Winged C's or Ruby BSTR's considering cost at a $150 for a matched pair BUT... the RFT's deliver a flavor that you are glad you spent the money on. Here is the Tubestores description which I concur with:
These tubes are extremely warm sounding and if you have one of those amps that sound thin at lower volume levels, these should take care of that problem in short order. Midrange response seemed slightly skewed toward the bass side. This is no doubt where the extra warmth is coming from. The high end was smooth and clear without a trace of harshness." 

If you get a killer deal on them then snag em' up. You know I love the RFT's whether preamp or power tubes.

To me the medium gain 7025 would be a must for what I play mixed in V1 or V2. I'm finding some great rock/blues tones from mine.


----------



## RiverRatt

The two RFT's are 7025A's and are probably the hottest tubes I have, except for those insanely high Tungsrams you tested for me. With both of them in, there's not as much difference between the two channels. I usually have the green channel set on Crunch with enough gain to get into AC/DC territory. The red channel is always on Lead 1, and I like to be able to go from a classic 70's rock tone up to GnR overdrive. That sounds like I play with a lot of gain, but actually I don't. I just like to have it on-tap if needed. Not that I'm a huge AC/DC fan, either, but the tone I'm most comfortable with is somewhere around the sound they get on the intro to "It's a Long Way to the Top." My one controls are set around 4-6-6 with as little presence as I can get by with. No tone shift, no bass boost.

When I got home awhile ago, I tried one of the Sonotone-branded RCA side-getters in V1 that you tested at 23-24, the RFT 7025A in V2, another Sonotone (23-28) in V3 and an untested Raytheon gray-plate 12AT7 in V4. I definitely liked the 23-24 in V1.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The two RFT's are 7025A's and are probably the hottest tubes I have, except for those insanely high Tungsrams you tested for me. With both of them in, there's not as much difference between the two channels. I usually have the green channel set on Crunch with enough gain to get into AC/DC territory. The red channel is always on Lead 1, and I like to be able to go from a classic 70's rock tone up to GnR overdrive. That sounds like I play with a lot of gain, but actually I don't. I just like to have it on-tap if needed. Not that I'm a huge AC/DC fan, either, but the tone I'm most comfortable with is somewhere around the sound they get on the intro to "It's a Long Way to the Top." My one controls are set around 4-6-6 with as little presence as I can get by with. No tone shift, no bass boost.
> 
> When I got home awhile ago, I tried one of the Sonotone-branded RCA side-getters in V1 that you tested at 23-24, the RFT 7025A in V2, another Sonotone (23-28) in V3 and an untested Raytheon gray-plate 12AT7 in V4. I definitely liked the 23-24 in V1.



Me too.


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## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The two RFT's are 7025A's and are probably the hottest tubes I have, except for those insanely high Tungsrams you tested for me. With both of them in, there's not as much difference between the two channels. I usually have the green channel set on Crunch with enough gain to get into AC/DC territory. The red channel is always on Lead 1, and I like to be able to go from a classic 70's rock tone up to GnR overdrive. That sounds like I play with a lot of gain, but actually I don't. I just like to have it on-tap if needed. Not that I'm a huge AC/DC fan, either, but the tone I'm most comfortable with is somewhere around the sound they get on the intro to "It's a Long Way to the Top." My one controls are set around 4-6-6 with as little presence as I can get by with. No tone shift, no bass boost.
> 
> When I got home awhile ago, I tried one of the Sonotone-branded RCA side-getters in V1 that you tested at 23-24, the RFT 7025A in V2, another Sonotone (23-28) in V3 and an untested Raytheon gray-plate 12AT7 in V4. I definitely liked the 23-24 in V1.



*****************
It's too bad that you ended up with all of them scorching hot 12AX7's and 7025's. I never tested any 12AX7's like your Tungsrams before. They were off the hook! Hot, hot hot! And what are the odds of getting two RFT 7025's that are both high gainers? With those tubes in a Marshall, it's going to be early breakup every time. It really affects the clean channel. 

You sort of answered Joe's comment and my question about the 23-24 in V1. Joe likes to play it both ways. That is, the dominant tonal tube can be a high gainer and it goes in V1, but then he puts a medium gain in V2. As far as the clean channel goes, there will be a difference going this route over say the medium gainer in V1 and the high gain in V2. The medium gain 7025 in V1 is going to produce the best clean. However, tube placement is a matter of personal taste. Maybe one of these days I'll put four high gainers in one of my Marshalls and twist the clean knob off of the amp. "FOR LEADS ONLY" will be the sign hanging on the front panel next to the master. Anyway, maybe you found a good combination for you. You can always open it up a little more with a 12AX7 in the PI. Of course, if you want V1 to be a little quieter, then you'll want to go with a 7025 in V1. You just need to decide if it's worth the money.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

I was messing around some more with my BP in V1 and the 7025 in V2 and holy crap does it have that low mid ballz which is coming from the Raytheon BP. I wanted to see what the BP sounded like in V1 again. Wow! Warm and fat on the red channel and then the clean has an added bit of break up but it is really warm/fat sounding too. Very tasty. I haven't even boosted it...yet. 

So more of the BP came through this way with a bit more pop to it but not so much it took me out of my zone thanks to the 7025. Gave me a naughty women tone on the neck PU.

It really compliments the characteristic's of the RFT EL34's.

I dig this combo of the BP/7025 both ways. Another win/win for me.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The two RFT's are 7025A's and are probably the hottest tubes I have, except for those insanely high Tungsrams you tested for me. With both of them in, there's not as much difference between the two channels. I usually have the green channel set on Crunch with enough gain to get into AC/DC territory. The red channel is always on Lead 1, and I like to be able to go from a classic 70's rock tone up to GnR overdrive. That sounds like I play with a lot of gain, but actually I don't. I just like to have it on-tap if needed. Not that I'm a huge AC/DC fan, either, but the tone I'm most comfortable with is somewhere around the sound they get on the intro to "It's a Long Way to the Top." My one controls are set around 4-6-6 with as little presence as I can get by with. No tone shift, no bass boost.
> 
> When I got home awhile ago, I tried one of the Sonotone-branded RCA side-getters in V1 that you tested at 23-24, the RFT 7025A in V2, another Sonotone (23-28) in V3 and an untested Raytheon gray-plate 12AT7 in V4. I definitely liked the 23-24 in V1.



We cover some of the same ground gain/tone wise.

Most of the time I will have my presence set at 3, treble at 4/5, midz at 5/6, bass at 3(Bass boost on)tone shift always out. Depending on what preamp selection I have it varies a little here and there. Usually minor adjustments to get the best out of it. No bass boost on the green channel though. It has enough lows as is. I love to boost the crunch channel for classic rock or hot rodded blues tones.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds like you use a little more bass in your tone than I do. It may sound a little thin at low volume, but when you start turning up the MV is when the tone comes alive.It drives my wife and kids crazy (and probably neighbors, too), but when I'm demo'ing tubes I try to get the master up to at least 3. 

The DSL is really sounding good right now. I'm dying to get it out of the house and air it out good. All that's been going on here is the local theatre group is doing a "Dames of Broadway" show. I didn't think it would be a good idea to use the Marshall on a gig doing vocal comps for a bunch of chick singers (my wife being one). It sounds boring, and it is, but the drummer is a guy I've been playing with since we were in 7th grade and we have a lot of fun when we get together.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sounds like you use a little more bass in your tone than I do. It may sound a little thin at low volume, but when you start turning up the MV is when the tone comes alive.It drives my wife and kids crazy (and probably neighbors, too), but when I'm demo'ing tubes I try to get the master up to at least 3.
> 
> The DSL is really sounding good right now. I'm dying to get it out of the house and air it out good. All that's been going on here is the local theatre group is doing a "Dames of Broadway" show. I didn't think it would be a good idea to use the Marshall on a gig doing vocal comps for a bunch of chick singers (my wife being one). It sounds boring, and it is, but the drummer is a guy I've been playing with since we were in 7th grade and we have a lot of fun when we get together.



Yeah this is very true when the volume goes up. I've been caught off guard by that before hehe. Hey I'm at about the same level volume wise(3-4)and I do like a fair amount of lowend but it has to be with no flab or mush. You know what happens when you throw the neck PU on and there is way too much bass EQ'd on the amp. F...! On lead 2 the bass boost button is out! The amp really changes alot from 2 on up on the volume. Any preamp fizz falls away when those power valves open up. And that Marshall wump! Love it.

I have to wait till everyone leaves the house before I get to throttle it up. My neighbors have been very cool. No complaints yet but the wife tells me you can hear me at the mail boxes about a block away.

Sounds like you and your drummer are hav'n fun anyways with that gig. Why not?! Someone in the crowd will appreciate that dude has a Marshall up there hehe. You know we got your back!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I found another auction for two of those RFT 7025A's. This seller says they test as "weak". Deal or no deal?

PAIR INTERNATIONAL 7025 7025A TUBES GERMANY - SEE DESCR

Check out his other listings - If anybody here is shopping for EL84's, he's got a sweet looking RCA 7189 that I'll bet will go cheap.


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## MartyStrat54

What he has is two 7025's and one tests 82-82 and the other is no good and is listed as weak. Too bad he doesn't have a pair of those 7189's. I tested Josh's and one tested at 92 and the other at 40 something. What a shame. Usually, when two tubes are pulled from an amp they will test real close. 

I may fish around on EBAY for some more 7025's. I just picked up a couple of Mullards that are the 7025/12AX7A's. Still waiting on the Amperex tubes. I'm hoping they'll get here tomorrow. My "buddy" Kevin that sells on EBAY screwed up my order. We got it worked out and he is sending me four killer Sylvania's for free. That will put 16 tubes in the kitty and I'm waiting to bid on round two.

Those were some extra clean Raytheon Black Plates that I won off of him. Hell, they look like they are new. The glass is really pristine.


LOVE THEM TUBES!!!
Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> What he has is two 7025's and one tests 82-82 and the other is no good and is listed as weak. Too bad he doesn't have a pair of those 7189's. I tested Josh's and one tested at 92 and the other at 40 something. What a shame. Usually, when two tubes are pulled from an amp they will test real close.
> 
> I may fish around on EBAY for some more 7025's. I just picked up a couple of Mullards that are the 7025/12AX7A's. Still waiting on the Amperex tubes. I'm hoping they'll get here tomorrow. My "buddy" Kevin that sells on EBAY screwed up my order. We got it worked out and he is sending me four killer Sylvania's for free. That will put 16 tubes in the kitty and I'm waiting to bid on round two.
> 
> Those were some extra clean Raytheon Black Plates that I won off of him. Hell, they look like they are new. The glass is really pristine.
> 
> 
> LOVE THEM TUBES!!!
> Marty



Are these at home yet or are they still traveling? If you got them already how'd they test?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I already got the BP's. I was supposed to get four, high test Sylvania's first, but he mistakenly sent my tubes to someone else. He then sent me four more Black Plates, but they weren't mine. I called him up and I sent the four extra Black Plates back. He is sending me my four high test Sylvania's plus four freebies for being so understanding (nice guy).

Later today I will be bidding on some more BP's. The sad part is that they have already been bid up higher than what I paid in the first round. I actually got four Raytheon BP's for $11 a piece! (Had to edit.) Yes the BP's tested nicely with several of them being medium gain and several others being 29-28, 31-33 and 33-29. Mighty stout. (End edit.)

Joe, are you jonesing for some Black Plates? Hang in there and it will get better.

Marty


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I already got the BP's. I was supposed to get four, high test Sylvania's first, but he mistakenly sent my tubes to someone else. He then sent me four more Black Plates, but they weren't mine. I called him up and I sent the four extra Black Plates back. He is sending me my four high test Sylvania's plus four freebies for being so understanding (nice guy).
> 
> Later today I will be bidding on some more BP's. The sad part is that they have already been bid up higher than what I paid in the first round. I actually got four Raytheon BP's for $11 a piece!
> 
> Joe, are you jonesing for some Black Plates? Hang in there and it will get better.
> 
> Marty



:Ohno: BP's please...

Hehe...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> :Ohno:
> 
> Hehe...



Just remember...I've got your address and I know where you live.

Marty O, or as they used to say, "The Animal."


BLACK PLATES ROCK!!!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just remember...I've got your address and I know where you live.
> 
> Marty O, or as they used to say, "The Animal."
> 
> 
> BLACK PLATES ROCK!!!



That first emoticon was suppose to be me jonez'n.

You "ANIMAL"! 

Look again. I fixed it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> :Ohno: BP's please...
> 
> Hehe...



Yeah I see that. No doubt about it, you've got it bad.

"Roll, roll, roll them tubes gently in my amp.
Lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it, lovin' it, 
it makes my eyes get damp."

Nursery rhyme by and Marty


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## MartyStrat54

WHEW!!!

I feel like I've been in a fist fight.

Well things went a lot differently in round two of the EBAY saga. This time there were lots and lots of bidders. Some of the auctions were only spaced about a minute apart. No time for dicking off. The first auction for NOS Raytheon BP's soared over $110 (I got four for $44 in Round One four days ago). I quickly jumped off of this auction and went to some even better BP's. This auction I won, but it was for $81. I blew off the next three, because the tubes didn't test as strong as I like (but a pair of BP's went for $71...what the f**k!). I then went after some NOS Sylvania. Ah the good old standby, the workhorse. Holy crap they cost me $91. More than the BP's.

Like I said, some days you just cry over the good deals you make and other days you cry over the money you've spent. In reality, these 8 tubes cost me $21.50 each. I try to keep it at $20 a tube, but hey, sometimes you gotta go a little higher if you want to bring the bacon home. I'm happy, because I just bought a s**tload of tubes off of this guy and the average price drops down to about $17 a tube when you average in the entire lot that I bought. Plus he gave me four free NOS Sylvania's for the little screw up that I mentioned in the above post. 

Yeah, I did good. I'm glad it's over. I'm looking for more 7025's right now. I'm getting down to a dozen or so.

P.S. Kevin had two lots of 1957 RCA BP's. I didn't like the test scores that much. They were okay, probably in the 22-22 to 24-24 range. They went for $166 and $147. He had four RCA BP EL84's and they went for $161. Some of them auctions were just f**kin' crazy.

God Bless Them NOS Tubes! Love Them 12AX7's and 7025's. 

MARTY


----------



## Dazmondo

Can someone help me with a problem with my TSL 60? I've a friend with a TSL100 who as had problems with the fuses blowing, he always caries a spare set, so I thought I'd do the same, took the fuses to Maplins electronics to get them matched (which I assumed they did) tried out the new fuses just to make sure, but nothing. just the normal buzzing when close to the amp, the power switch light seems fine but theres no glow coming from the tubes and no volume, even after swapping back the original fuses (which seem fine). I'm low on cash (after buying this amp on ebay a month ago) and have gigs coming up and would welcome a plan of action. Have I blown the tubes? is it something more serious? and where do I buy fuses online, everywhere seems to sell everything else as amp spares but no fuses. Please help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dazmondo said:


> Can someone help me with a problem with my TSL 60? I've a friend with a TSL100 who as had problems with the fuses blowing, he always caries a spare set, so I thought I'd do the same, took the fuses to Maplins electronics to get them matched (which I assumed they did) tried out the new fuses just to make sure, but nothing. just the normal buzzing when close to the amp, the power switch light seems fine but theres no glow coming from the tubes and no volume, even after swapping back the original fuses (which seem fine). I'm low on cash (after buying this amp on ebay a month ago) and have gigs coming up and would welcome a plan of action. Have I blown the tubes? is it something more serious? and where do I buy fuses online, everywhere seems to sell everything else as amp spares but no fuses. Please help!



Hello Dazmondo: If your amp was working fine and all you did was pull the fuses and replace them with "like" fuses and the amp doesn't want to fire up makes me believe that somehow one or more of the fuses have blown. This is to include your old set. Did you replace the fuses with the power off? Do you have a load (speaker cab) hooked up to your head. A tube amp needs a load on it when it is fired up. The cab load must match the output on the amp, such as 16 ohm cab hooked up to the 16 ohm output. Which fuses did you replace? The two by the power cord? Does the new fuse have the paper sleeve so you can't see inside of the fuse? If so, do you have any friend (or their father) who has a multimeter? If you can locate one of these you could check all of the fuses. Did you stick the fuses in their proper sockets? If not, this could have blown a fuse when the power was turned on. Does your channel indicator lights come on (green, yellow and red)?

I do not know why your friend's TSL100 blows fuses. If it was me, I would have that looked at and fixed. However, if what you stated is accurate, then you should look closely at the fuses and that you are sticking them in the right fuse holder. Do a little more checking and report back if you still have a problem.

One other thing, what brand and age are your preamp tubes? There is a slight chance that one of them may be bad. However, I'm going by the fact that you said your power tube do not glow and that means the high voltage is not going to the power tubes. Not 100 per cent familiar with your amp, although I have a couple of TSL602's. So I'm assuming that one of the fuses you have pulled is what is called the "HT" fuse. This supplies the high voltage to the power tubes. Fuses don't cost that much. Maybe you should get another set or two and retry firing up the amp. If the fuses blow, pull the power tubes, refuse and try it again. If the fuse(s) don't blow, you have a short in one of your power tubes.

It's very difficult trying to diagnose a problem online, but that is what I can tell you so far. If you can come up with additional info, I may be able to come up with more answers.

Marty


----------



## Bobbo

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey All! I'm still a bit new to the Marshall Forum, but already I have seen quite a bit of discussion regarding the selection and operation of power amp tubes. But... I would really like to get some feed back regarding the selection of preamp tubes.
> 
> I rarely play out, and quite frankly seldom have opportunity to turn my TSL122 up past 1 or 2. I am aware of the fact that because of this, I will be getting most of my tone from my preamp section, and not from the power amp. That being the case I would like to know more about how preamp tubes effect my sound.
> 
> I play mainly classic rock ranging from AC/DC to Def Leppard. Clearly I love distorted guitar tone, but I also love the way my TSL122 sounds on the clean channel. So...
> 
> What I am hoping for is feedback from you more experienced members of the forum regarding such topics as: How will different tubes change my sound to better suit my style of playing? What tonal qualities do different preamp tubes have? What is a good starting point for finding the right tubes for me? Can I "mix-and-match" preamp tubes? How long do preamp tubes last? How often should I replace them?
> 
> Please, do share your thoughts on this subject. I am eager to know what your experiences have been. Thanks in advance for your responses!





*I suggest using NOS preamp tubes !!! I think new production 12ax7's are quite inferior nowdays !!! I only use NOS Telefunken , Mullard or Bugle Boy's in my amps !!! I know the Telefunkens are supposed to last at least 10,000 hours ... Not sure what todays manufacturers project as a reasonable tube life ??? *


----------



## MartyStrat54

Edit: I don't know who this clown "Bobbo" is, but he has spammed all over the forum. As you can see, he is advertising in unauthorized areas. I reported him to the moderator. Hopefully, they will clean him out of the forum. Marty

Well I went and pulled all of the preamp tubes in my 602 with the Mullard EL34's. I put a 25-27 BP in V1, a 30-31 in V2, a 23-25 in V3 and a 22-23 in V4. Man it was crunchy. Still had a clean, but with a little bite to it. The crunch and lead channels just rocked! Heavy thick articulate mids slapping you in the face. The JBL's sounded like they were in a closed back cab. I mean the low end was tight. The upper mids and highs were pretty sweet. Just a nice blend of the overall frequencies. I liked it, because it wasn't producing ice pick highs that eat your ears up. Just a smooth upper end. 

I then took the 25-27 BP out and put in a 26-25 7025. Man V1 really makes a difference doesn't it folks? This made the clean channel more defined with less bite (more clean). However, most of that low mid was still there because of the 30-31 BP's influence. This combination gave a broader range of playing styles.

I then put a high gain in V3 and V4 (BP's) and put the 25-27 back into V1. The way the signal path runs on a TSL has been discussed before in this and other threads. All I can say is V3 had something to do with the clean channel becoming basically the crunch channel. It was somewhat clean, but with the pre turned to 4 it would start breaking up. At 6 it sounded like the "yellow" channel...maybe even better. The lead channel was a little more uncontrolled than I liked. If you can control a high gain amp and keep the feedback down, then you might like this. You don't need to pick the string. Just run a riff and it picks it up like you are picking it. Yeah, that sort of Steve Vai gain.

Conclusion-Sometimes too much is too much. I did this just for fun. The combo of tubes I had in my 602 gave me a great clean and plenty of gain on the yellow and red channels. The Black Plates were too much. Of course, 3 high gain tubes in the amp will create chaos, even in the PI slot. I did pull a Joe and put the 30-31 in V1 and the medium gain 7025 in V2. As noted, the amp portrayed the tonal characteristics of the Black Plate. The 7025 didn't do much to bring it down any. V1 is the most sensitive slot and the high gainer proved that. Again, the clean channel was thick with a bite. I'm sure if I had jacked the pre up to 8 and the master to 6, it would have been heaven...on the clean channel. However, I like my amps to have three distinct sounds. Some people play music were the clean doesn't have to be all that great. These people would probably want the high gainer in V1. Two high gainers in V1 and V2 are usually too much and limits the type of sound you can pull out of your amp. However, only experimentation will tell what your tube line up should be. Another option would be a 26-27 and 28-27 in V1 and V2. This would still allow for a somewhat clean channel, but the lead channel would be a real screamer.

For all of those new to these many pages, most of the regulars have obtained a collection of good tubes to use in several amps. This teaches them to hear what sounds certain tubes make in certain tube positions. With a modern Marshall with four preamp tubes, V1 and V2 are the most sensitive. You can get by with a low test tube in the V3 and V4 positions. In fact, some regulars will use a 12AT7 in V4.

The main thing is to realize that NOS tubes and speakers are the two things you can change on your amp to make the greatest tonal impact. Even more so than doing other mod's on your amp. The right tubes and the right speakers will make you sound like a real pro.

MARTY


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Edit: I don't know who this clown "Bobbo" is, but he has spammed all over the forum. As you can see, he is advertising in unauthorized areas. I reported him to the moderator. Hopefully, they will clean him out of the forum. Marty
> 
> Well I went and pulled all of the preamp tubes in my 602 with the Mullard EL34's. I put a 25-27 BP in V1, a 30-31 in V2, a 23-25 in V3 and a 22-23 in V4. Man it was crunchy. Still had a clean, but with a little bite to it. The crunch and lead channels just rocked! Heavy thick articulate mids slapping you in the face. The JBL's sounded like they were in a closed back cab. I mean the low end was tight. The upper mids and highs were pretty sweet. Just a nice blend of the overall frequencies. I liked it, because it wasn't producing ice pick highs that eat your ears up. Just a smooth upper end.
> 
> I then took the 25-27 BP out and put in a 26-25 7025. Man V1 really makes a difference doesn't it folks? This made the clean channel more defined with less bite (more clean). However, most of that low mid was still there because of the 30-31 BP's influence. This combination gave a broader range of playing styles.
> 
> I then put a high gain in V3 and V4 (BP's) and put the 25-27 back into V1. The way the signal path runs on a TSL has been discussed before in this and other threads. All I can say is V3 had something to do with the clean channel becoming basically the crunch channel. It was somewhat clean, but with the pre turned to 4 it would start breaking up. At 6 it sounded like the "yellow" channel...maybe even better. The lead channel was a little more uncontrolled than I liked. If you can control a high gain amp and keep the feedback down, then you might like this. You don't need to pick the string. Just run a riff and it picks it up like you are picking it. Yeah, that sort of Steve Vai gain.
> 
> Conclusion-Sometimes too much is too much. I did this just for fun. The combo of tubes I had in my 602 gave me a great clean and plenty of gain on the yellow and red channels. The Black Plates were too much. Of course, 3 high gain tubes in the amp will create chaos, even in the PI slot. I did pull a Joe and put the 30-31 in V1 and the medium gain 7025 in V2. As noted, the amp portrayed the tonal characteristics of the Black Plate. The 7025 didn't do much to bring it down any. V1 is the most sensitive slot and the high gainer proved that. Again, the clean channel was thick with a bite. I'm sure if I had jacked the pre up to 8 and the master to 6, it would have been heaven...on the clean channel. However, I like my amps to have three distinct sounds. Some people play music were the clean doesn't have to be all that great. These people would probably want the high gainer in V1. Two high gainers in V1 and V2 are usually too much and limits the type of sound you can pull out of your amp. However, only experimentation will tell what your tube line up should be. Another option would be a 26-27 and 28-27 in V1 and V2. This would still allow for a somewhat clean channel, but the lead channel would be a real screamer.
> 
> For all of those new to these many pages, most of the regulars have obtained a collection of good tubes to use in several amps. This teaches them to hear what sounds certain tubes make in certain tube positions. With a modern Marshall with four preamp tubes, V1 and V2 are the most sensitive. You can get by with a low test tube in the V3 and V4 positions. In fact, some regulars will use a 12AT7 in V4.
> 
> The main thing is to realize that NOS tubes and speakers are the two things you can change on your amp to make the greatest tonal impact. Even more so than doing other mod's on your amp. The right tubes and the right speakers will make you sound like a real pro.
> 
> MARTY



Nice job on the tube roll'n. Very good usable info! 

You know I have to agree about a 7025 V1 & a BP/higher gain in V2 covers more ground between my clean/crunch channel and yet still thumps on the lead channel. Covers blues/rock very well in the DSL.

The BP in V1 warms up the green channel a touch too much. I had to EQ some lows out when I put the BP in the first slot on that channel. The RFT was similar in effect too on the green channel. 

On the red channel it is killer though cause to me it runs on the brighter/thinner side anyways(lead 1)so those 2 tubes in V1 on the red channel kick ass. You get all the tubes characteristics hitting it in a more dominant way and it translates into thickening or adding body/ballz to the amp. Nice lowend in both the BP/RFT's. When boosted it is delicious and almost sexual...

The problem with that combination is having to re EQ a channel when I switch over to it. With the 7025 in V1 and the BP/RFT in V2 I don't have to re EQ anything. I can get what I want across the board with an EQ that works for both. The best of both worlds...

The 7025 really is a good fit in V1 and you do get enough of the high gainers character in V2 hitting the lead channel.

Again when I roll tubes I like to put the 7025 in V2 and then the tube I want to judge character on in V1. This gives me the info I want on that tube. Then I mix em' up. V1 really lets me hear what that tube is all about. Doesn't mean it ends up there like I said before.

I usually keep medium gainers in V3 and the PI through out my rolling while I establish V1 & V2. Pretty much stays that way anyways. So I find out what works well in my amp for blues and rock playing. If I want heavier I don't have to change tubes. I just add a bit more boost by stepping on a pedal preset for that. Actually I can cover alot of ground now with little effort.

One last note of recent exploration. I was wrong about the DSL not being able to cover modern heavier tones. I've been experimenting with it lately and shiat with the proper boost it has no problem getting there. On its own, nah. Lacks punch. Sounds much better with the front lit up much like an 800 reacts.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Edit: I don't know who this clown "Bobbo" is, but he has spammed all over the forum. As you can see, he is advertising in unauthorized areas. I reported him to the moderator. Hopefully, they will clean him out of the forum. Marty
> 
> Well I went and pulled all of the preamp tubes in my 602 with the Mullard EL34's. I put a 25-27 BP in V1, a 30-31 in V2, a 23-25 in V3 and a 22-23 in V4. Man it was crunchy. Still had a clean, but with a little bite to it. The crunch and lead channels just rocked! Heavy thick articulate mids slapping you in the face. The JBL's sounded like they were in a closed back cab. I mean the low end was tight. The upper mids and highs were pretty sweet. Just a nice blend of the overall frequencies. I liked it, because it wasn't producing ice pick highs that eat your ears up. Just a smooth upper end.
> 
> I then took the 25-27 BP out and put in a 26-25 7025. Man V1 really makes a difference doesn't it folks? This made the clean channel more defined with less bite (more clean). However, most of that low mid was still there because of the 30-31 BP's influence. This combination gave a broader range of playing styles.
> 
> I then put a high gain in V3 and V4 (BP's) and put the 25-27 back into V1. The way the signal path runs on a TSL has been discussed before in this and other threads. All I can say is V3 had something to do with the clean channel becoming basically the crunch channel. It was somewhat clean, but with the pre turned to 4 it would start breaking up. At 6 it sounded like the "yellow" channel...maybe even better. The lead channel was a little more uncontrolled than I liked. If you can control a high gain amp and keep the feedback down, then you might like this. You don't need to pick the string. Just run a riff and it picks it up like you are picking it. Yeah, that sort of Steve Vai gain.
> 
> Conclusion-Sometimes too much is too much. I did this just for fun. The combo of tubes I had in my 602 gave me a great clean and plenty of gain on the yellow and red channels. The Black Plates were too much. Of course, 3 high gain tubes in the amp will create chaos, even in the PI slot. I did pull a Joe and put the 30-31 in V1 and the medium gain 7025 in V2. As noted, the amp portrayed the tonal characteristics of the Black Plate. The 7025 didn't do much to bring it down any. V1 is the most sensitive slot and the high gainer proved that. Again, the clean channel was thick with a bite. I'm sure if I had jacked the pre up to 8 and the master to 6, it would have been heaven...on the clean channel. However, I like my amps to have three distinct sounds. Some people play music were the clean doesn't have to be all that great. These people would probably want the high gainer in V1. Two high gainers in V1 and V2 are usually too much and limits the type of sound you can pull out of your amp. However, only experimentation will tell what your tube line up should be. Another option would be a 26-27 and 28-27 in V1 and V2. This would still allow for a somewhat clean channel, but the lead channel would be a real screamer.
> 
> For all of those new to these many pages, most of the regulars have obtained a collection of good tubes to use in several amps. This teaches them to hear what sounds certain tubes make in certain tube positions. With a modern Marshall with four preamp tubes, V1 and V2 are the most sensitive. You can get by with a low test tube in the V3 and V4 positions. In fact, some regulars will use a 12AT7 in V4.
> 
> The main thing is to realize that NOS tubes and speakers are the two things you can change on your amp to make the greatest tonal impact. Even more so than doing other mod's on your amp. The right tubes and the right speakers will make you sound like a real pro.
> 
> MARTY



Absolutely agree and mine "IS" modded. I would add a boost pedal to that as well as one of the 3 things to do to a Marshall before modding. Might save a bundle!


----------



## solarburn

Here is another update on Tech Tube tubes. There is a steady flow of guys on the thread below buying them now as users are stating the whistling microphony isn't happening anymore:

Before we all get carried away, lets not forget that even Tech Tube are not recommending this current valve for V1 (which is the most important one tonally). Of course that's precisely where I tried mine first...

As to the microphonics, it's not what tech folk usually mean, ie: a valve that starts making a noise all by itself. This second lot of valves rapidly stop being prone to whistle back at you, but... they do remain problematic in that they respond to any tapping the chassis and (reportedly) any electro-mechanical switching inside the amp... multi channel relay stuff I presume. That is in V1 they respond to physical thumps and taps more than any valve I've come across... and this may yet prove difficult for some folks. This would appear to be a direct consequence of their new, radical design, and might just have to be endured to some extent.

I spent some time today looking at what the HiFi folks were saying (googled tech tubes+HiFi). There were only a handfull of revues but they were all over-the-top favourable..." better than Mullard... all the good points of other valves without the bad points.... improved imaging, greater detail, deeper sound stage... better bass, musical notes rather than vague rumble" etc, etc". They dismissed the microphonics bit totally (much to my surprise), even a put-down mention of guitarist type comment on the web...

Anyway for the moment I'm getting away with tech tubes in V1 and V2 and they sound fine to me and quite usable at stage volumes... and they are definately different, more revealing and exciting rather than safe and warm, so be warned....

PS FWIW In my THD Bivalve I had no microphonic or tapping noise issues at all in V2 with either the early or current tech tubes....
__________________


----------



## MartyStrat54

That is in V1 they respond to physical thumps and taps more than any valve I've come across... and this may yet prove difficult for some folks. This would appear to be a direct consequence of their new, radical design, and might just have to be endured to some extent.

This paragraph sums up what I said before ^^^ (Yeah, up there somewhere.)
That is, the design of this tube is causing the feedback. I told you that I didn't think it was a good idea to have your plates look like cowbells. This is causing all of the problems. 

Now it appears they may have a GEN 2 tube out by the way this reviewer was talking. If so, great. Like I said, I want them to start selling on EBAY. I want the price of real NOS tubes to drop to where even JOEcan buy them.

If they do have a GEN 2 tube out and it doesn't (or has less) microphonics, I would be curious to know what they did. When the reviewer said it wasn't "safe and warm" sounding, that scares me. Is it rude and sterile sounding? I like warm tubes. That is what gives you a fat sound. If the new Mullards aren't warm, then they have no soul baby.

MARTY


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I then put a *high gain in V3 and V4 *(BP's) and put the 25-27 back into V1. The way the signal path runs on a TSL has been discussed before in this and other threads. All I can say is *V3 had something to do with the clean channel becoming basically the crunch channel*. It was somewhat clean, but with the pre turned to 4 it would start breaking up. At 6 it sounded like the "yellow" channel...maybe even better. The *lead channel was a little more uncontrolled than I liked. If you can control a high gain amp and keep the feedback down, then you might like this. You don't need to pick the string. Just run a riff and it picks it up like you are picking it. Yeah, that sort of Steve Vai gain.*
> 
> Conclusion-_*Sometimes too much is too much.*_ I did this just for fun. The combo of tubes I had in my 602 gave me a great clean and plenty of gain on the yellow and red channels. The Black Plates were too much. Of course, 3 high gain tubes in the amp will create chaos, even in the PI slot. I did pull a Joe and put the 30-31 in V1 and the medium gain 7025 in V2. As noted, the amp portrayed the tonal characteristics of the Black Plate. The 7025 didn't do much to bring it down any. V1 is the most sensitive slot and the high gainer proved that. Again, the clean channel was thick with a bite. I'm sure *if I had jacked the pre up to 8 and the master to 6, it would have been heaven...on the clean channel. However, I like my amps to have three distinct sounds.* Some people play music were the clean doesn't have to be all that great. These people would probably want the high gainer in V1. Two high gainers in V1 and V2 are usually too much and limits the type of sound you can pull out of your amp. However, *only experimentation will tell what your tube line up should be*...



Ok. I definitely feel that I have _the_ combination for V1 & V2. I am still rockin' the RCA 7025 in V1 and the Dutch 12AX7 in V2, and this pairing is _sweet_.



 



So now... I think it may be time to narrow down the best combination for my V3 & V4 slots to go along w/ what I've already got in the first two slots.

Obviously no argument to say that V1 & V2 affect the tone the most, but more feedback on V3 & V4 and what you guys have found would be much appreciated.

I definitely agree with Marty that too much is too much (i discovered this the hard way w/ my ICBM-2 experiment), so I probably am not looking for high gainers here. In fact I'm not exactly sure what I am looking for other than to just sweetin' things up a bit.

I really haven't done much since establishing my V1 & V2 slots, so this will interesting.

Here's what I currently have on-hand to work with:

*Current Production:*

(1) Tung-Sol 12AX7 Gold Pin
(2) Tung-Sol 12AX7
(2) Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH
(2) Mullard 12AX7​ 
_*

*_

*Vintage:*

(1) RCA 12AX7 (18-16) 


(1) Groove Tubes 12AX7R 


(1) JJ 12AX7 (no stats available) 

 (Currently in V3)
(1) JJ 12AX7 Gold-Pin (no stats available) 

 (Currently in V4)
(1) Fender / Sovtek 12AX7WA (21/26) 


(1) GE 12AX7 (30/30) 


(1) GE 12AX7 (21/21) 


(1) Westinghouse 12AX7A (22/22) 


(1) Westinghouse 12AX7A (19/19) 



So... Whaddaya think?​


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOSH, it's great to hear from you again!
I'm assuming that the current production tubes have some sort of test reading on them. They usually do. Since I don't know what they are, all I can say is beware of using any Tung-Sol in V3. You could use a Mullard in V3 and a Tung-Sol in V4 just to see what this gives you over your current line up.

In NOS tubes, I would try the GE 30-30 in V3 and the GE 21-21 in V4. If the GE in V3 alters your clean channel, then you will have to drop it down with say the Westinghouse (or try it as the PI in V4). All you can do is try it. I picked the GE's as I feel they have better tonal qualities than the other tubes you have except the RCA, but it is way below being good (although it might prove to be a neat PI tube). 

Also, have you (for grins and giggles) tried the GE 30-30 in V2? Yes, the Amperex will blow it away, but I'm just curious to see how that GE sounds in V2.

The main thing is that you can get by with almost anything in V4. V3 is a little more demanding and as I found out a high gainer here "may" affect the clean channel. From some of my unreported testing, I think a medium gain Black plate in V3 is a winner. It helps support the tone of the tube in V2, whether it is an Amperex, old Mullard, RCA, etc. I decided that in a four tube preamp situation in a DSL or TSL, V3 does in fact have a noticeable effect on the overall tone. V4 plays a very small part. It is more like a gateway. If you run a 12AT7 the gate is smaller and the signal inversion is not as strong. If you run a high gain 12AX7, the gate is very big and the signal inversion is powerful. This powerful signal has an impact on the dynamics of the tone.

With this in mind, let's start thinking more about using tubes with more tonal capabilities in V3 and V4. It may be the final tweaking to obtain the ultimate tone. These tubes do not have to be expensive and current production tubes may work in these slots. Of course, in my amps I use NOS tubes in all four positions and in V3 and V4 the tubes are usually 12AX7A's and generally RCA gray plates. However, I am using some BP's that are like 23-22 and 21-22 in V3 and V4 and I am very pleased at how they performed. The thing you might not know is that BP's appeared in the early 50's and ran until I believe 1964. They cost more to make and they were phased out in favor of gray plates. The coating that gives the black appearance is also what gives the tube it's fantastic tone. So when you get a BP, it is going to be at least 45 years old. Think about that. This last batch I got are all 1962's.

Well Josh, I wish your RCA was at least a 21-21 tube. It would be perfect in either V3 or V4. You have enough tubes that you can pop them in and see how they roll. Keep me posted.

MARTY


----------



## MartyStrat54

Merry Christmas! Welcome to Christmas in July! Ho, ho, ho! (No, not that kind of "HO.")

Ahh yes. It's so nice when Christmas comes in July. Santa has a lot less trouble getting around on them steep roofs. No ice and snow to deal with. Ho, ho, ho. (Are you getting sick of the "HO's" yet?)

Stayed tuned to this thread, as I am sure there will be much buzzing and smiles all around.

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Merry Christmas! Welcome to Christmas in July! Ho, ho, ho! (No, not that kind of "HO.")
> 
> Ahh yes. It's so nice when Christmas comes in July. Santa has a lot less trouble getting around on them steep roofs. No ice and snow to deal with. Ho, ho, ho. (Are you getting sick of the "HO's" yet?)
> 
> Stayed tuned to this thread, as I am sure there will be much buzzing and smiles all around.
> 
> _MARTY_






You hav'n a heatwave too? Better get in the shade...quick!

Its freek'n hot over here!!!!!!!!!

Ok. 

Merry xmass anyways...


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok. I definitely feel that I have _the_ combination for V1 & V2. I am still rockin' the RCA 7025 in V1 and the Dutch 12AX7 in V2, and this pairing is _sweet_.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So now... I think it may be time to narrow down the best combination for my V3 & V4 slots to go along w/ what I've already got in the first two slots.
> 
> Obviously no argument to say that V1 & V2 affect the tone the most, but more feedback on V3 & V4 and what you guys have found would be much appreciated.
> 
> I definitely agree with Marty that too much is too much (i discovered this the hard way w/ my ICBM-2 experiment), so I probably am not looking for high gainers here. In fact I'm not exactly sure what I am looking for other than to just sweetin' things up a bit.
> 
> I really haven't done much since establishing my V1 & V2 slots, so this will interesting.
> 
> Here's what I currently have on-hand to work with:
> 
> *Current Production:*
> 
> (1) Tung-Sol 12AX7 Gold Pin
> (2) Tung-Sol 12AX7
> (2) Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH
> (2) Mullard 12AX7​
> _*
> 
> *_
> 
> *Vintage:*
> 
> (1) RCA 12AX7 (18-16)
> 
> 
> (1) Groove Tubes 12AX7R
> 
> 
> (1) JJ 12AX7 (no stats available)
> 
> (Currently in V3)
> (1) JJ 12AX7 Gold-Pin (no stats available)
> 
> (Currently in V4)
> (1) Fender / Sovtek 12AX7WA (21/26)
> 
> 
> (1) GE 12AX7 (30/30)
> 
> 
> (1) GE 12AX7 (21/21)
> 
> 
> (1) Westinghouse 12AX7A (22/22)
> 
> 
> (1) Westinghouse 12AX7A (19/19)
> 
> 
> 
> So... Whaddaya think?​



Hey Josher! Welcome back to your thread!

Soooooo...what 3 & 4 did you try first and how'd it sound?


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome back, Josh! 

I had to jump back in. I think I've got the magic combo for me. Still have the RCA side-getter 22-23 in V1, the hot 39-40 RFT 7025A in V2, a Raytheon 12AT7 gray plate in V3 (yes, an AT7 in V3), and the 39-39 RFT 7025A in V4. Plenty of punch, plenty of crunch, and nice and dark. I 've actually been using the presence knob again. 
The next experiment I think is going to be to find an RCA black plate that tests near 22-22 and a black plate Raytheon 12AT7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome back, Josh!
> 
> I had to jump back in. I think I've got the magic combo for me. Still have the RCA side-getter 22-23 in V1, the hot 39-40 RFT 7025A in V2, a Raytheon 12AT7 gray plate in V3 (yes, an AT7 in V3), and the 39-39 RFT 7025A in V4. Plenty of punch, plenty of crunch, and nice and dark. I 've actually been using the presence knob again.
> The next experiment I think is going to be to find an RCA black plate that tests near 22-22 and a black plate Raytheon 12AT7.



Whatever floats your boat!

Who sez you can't put a 12AT7 in V3? Hell, Joe has run an AT7 all over the place. I think that's cool putting the high output RFT (39-39) in V4. It just means a whole lot of inversion is taking place...crunch, crunch.

BP Raytheon 12AT7's are still available from a wide source of suppliers. You might get a smoking deal if you spend a little time looking at prices. The RCA BP will be harder to find and it's another one of those $40+ tubes. I've seen them online for as much as $95. Again, RCA quit making its BP's in the early 60's, so they are getting scarce.

Back to your lineup. You know you are running the hottest V2 out of all of the regulars here. We are all running 30-30's or close to it. You got the right tube in V1. You don't want it to have a whole lot of gain. V2 is just nuts and as I said, I think V3 plays more of a role than what we thought. I think that AT7 takes a little off of that hot RFT. The other hot RFT in V4 is beyond the tone stack, but as I said, I think a strong tube in V4 adds to the dynamics of the overall sound. In music school they used to describe it this way. Think of the softest sound and the loudest sound. That is the range of dynamics which is best portrayed by a large orchestra. If your PI tube lacks the ability to handle small and large signals, you loose dynamics.

Your tube line up is certainly interesting to me and I'm glad that it is doing the job for you.

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome back, Josh!
> 
> I had to jump back in. I think I've got the magic combo for me. Still have the RCA side-getter 22-23 in V1, the hot 39-40 RFT 7025A in V2, a Raytheon 12AT7 gray plate in V3 (yes, an AT7 in V3), and the 39-39 RFT 7025A in V4. Plenty of punch, plenty of crunch, and nice and dark. I 've actually been using the presence knob again.
> The next experiment I think is going to be to find an RCA black plate that tests near 22-22 and a black plate Raytheon 12AT7.



Wus up RR! An AT7 in V3? I might have to try that and see how it translates. I like playing around with the AT7's here & there. I actually just bought a Brimar BP AT7 a few weeks ago for shits and giggles. I found it a touch warmer I think but that is splitting hairs cause it was pretty much the same tonewise as my Jan AT7 and my other Mullard AT7. I wanted to try it cause it was a BP.

Barley Used, Like New 1960s Brimar 12AT7 tubes with Black Plates and copper posts. . Made in England.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wus up RR! An AT7 in V3? I might have to try that and see how it translates. I like playing around with the AT7's here & there. I actually just bought a Brimar BP AT7 a few weeks ago for shits and giggles. I found it a touch warmer I think but that is splitting hairs cause it was pretty much the same tonewise as my Jan AT7 and my other Mullard AT7. I wanted to try it cause it was a BP.
> 
> Barley Used, Like New 1960s Brimar 12AT7 tubes with Black Plates and copper posts. . Made in England.



_Hail! Hail! The gang's all here! That's what I like to see._

Damn Joe. You must have a whole lot of tubes I don't know about. I mean them Brimar's are supposedly a step above a Mullard. So you are out buying all of these neat, exotic tubes and you got me thinking that you are tube poor. Wow! I guess I better get off of that train. 

Yeah that's one thing about you. You've got a thing for those AT7's. Don't get me wrong, they have their place. I know a lot of audiophiles that use JAN AT7's in the first stage of their amps and then follow it up with matching 7025's. Say, when was the last time you listened to a CD over a good tube hi fi system? It will blow your mind. I have a little RCA 17 watt per channel and I custom made some extra high efficiency speakers for it. The little "lunchbox" can really crank. It uses 2 EL84's per side and a 7025 and a 12AX7A on each side. Total of nine tubes. (Yeah it uses a 5U4GB for a rectifier...no solid state here.) I'd like to get me a 50 watt per channel tube amp, but they are out of the roof. One was 5 G's. Anyway, a tube hi fi amp is really cool. 

Next time you buy any tubes, you need to post and let us know. Don't hide this stuff from us. It ain't right. Okay, I feel better now.

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> _Hail! Hail! The gang's all here! That's what I like to see._
> 
> Damn Joe. You must have a whole lot of tubes I don't know about. I mean them Brimar's are supposedly a step above a Mullard. So you are out buying all of these neat, exotic tubes and you got me thinking that you are tube poor. Wow! I guess I better get off of that train.
> 
> Yeah that's one thing about you. You've got a thing for those AT7's. Don't get me wrong, they have their place. I know a lot of audiophiles that use JAN AT7's in the first stage of their amps and then follow it up with matching 7025's. Say, when was the last time you listened to a CD over a good tube hi fi system? It will blow your mind. I have a little RCA 17 watt per channel and I custom made some extra high efficiency speakers for it. The little "lunchbox" can really crank. It uses 2 EL84's per side and a 7025 and a 12AX7A on each side. Total of nine tubes. (Yeah it uses a 5U4GB for a rectifier...no solid state here.) I'd like to get me a 50 watt per channel tube amp, but they are out of the roof. One was 5 G's. Anyway, a tube hi fi amp is really cool.
> 
> Next time you buy any tubes, you need to post and let us know. Don't hide this stuff from us. It ain't right. Okay, I feel better now.
> 
> _MARTY_



Hehe. It was just the 1 AT7. I haven't got any other new ones since the last grouping I got from you and the RFT EL34's. After I got the BP from you I thought I'd see what a BP AT7 would translate too. Not as spectacular as the Raytheon 12AX7 when it hit my amp. It sounds pretty much like my other AT7's. I think a hair warmer.

Since it was an AT7 I didn't think my bro's would be interested as it wasn't very impactual. It puts a smile on my face to see others trying them out though. For some reason I have an affection for the little tykes.

I've never had a tube driven Hi Fi amp.

Edit: I forgot I did buy those RFT EL84's too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tubes for serious players only

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

Oh and while we're at it, I like the Tung Sol RI in the PI. I'm trying the AT7 in V3 to see...I need to crank it but can't right now. At low volume I don't notice much change.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> ...


 My Bad... I mistakenly listed these two JJ's (currently in my V3 & V4 positions) as being vintage... Uh... They are not. Lets call them UNS (Used New Stock):
(1) JJ 12AX7 (no stats available) 


(1) JJ 12AX7 Gold-Pin (no stats available) 



Anyhoo... I'm thinking I'll start w/ the two GE's as per Marty's suggestion... 



​


MartyStrat54 said:


> ...In NOS tubes, I would try *the GE 30-30 in V3 and the GE 21-21 in V4*. If the GE in V3 alters your clean channel, then you will have to drop it down with say the Westinghouse (or try it as the PI in V4). All you can do is try it. I picked the GE's as I feel they have better tonal qualities than the other tubes you have except the RCA, but it is way below being good (although it might prove to be a neat PI tube)...



And I'll see how that goes...

In the meantime then I can send the two JJ's currently ocupying V3 & V4 to Marty for testing? Right Marty?

And...



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I'm assuming that the current production tubes have some sort of test reading on them. They usually do. Since I don't know what they are, all I can say is beware of using any Tung-Sol in V3. You could use a Mullard in V3 and a Tung-Sol in V4 just to see what this gives you over your current line up...





​ 
Actually, looking at all of these new production tubes... I see nothing at all that indicates testing. They are simply marked with the company logo, the model number, and a manufacture date. That's it. Maybe I can have you test these too Marty? It would be interesting to see what fresh out-of-the-box, "quality" tubes are testing at... Whaddaya say good buddy?

Ok... Now... What's up w/ all of this:



MartyStrat54 said:


> JOSH, it's great to hear from you again!...





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Josher! Welcome back to your thread!





RiverRatt said:


> Welcome back, Josh!





MartyStrat54 said:


> _Hail! Hail! The gang's all here! That's what I like to see._



Ok... What's up? I was just a wee bit on the quiet side... I've been watching the posts... Soaking it all in... I didn't go any where... Did I? I didn't die did I? Oh no... I'm not dead... Right? Please tell me I'm not dead... Ahhhhhhhh!



Sorry... Just got worried for a sec. I'm better now. 

So... That being said... I'll try out the GE's... And see where it goes from there. 
So... Now I'm gonna go blow the frost off a couple...  And go get some shut-eye. Have a good night!  In the meantime... keep on Rockin'!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee, I guess I'm a nimrod. I thought that the tube stores put the test results somewhere on the box. What if you want a set of matched preamp tubes? I know they put a sticker on power tubes in a matched duet or quad. The sticker will show that all the tubes are within 3 to 5 per cent of each other. 

That just plain sucks. What's wrong with these people?

How are you supposed to know if the "high gain" tube you just bought is a high gain? 

Josh, if you want all of your CP tubes tested, no problem. I'd be curious to see what they read. The one's Joe sent me didn't test that bad at all. Some were lopsided more than I like (I like the tube to be + or - 2 points on each side, such as a 26-24). I can't complain as they were free.

Just put them in a box and send them my way. I'll take care of you.

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee, I guess I'm a nimrod. I thought that the tube stores put the test results somewhere on the box. What if you want a set of matched preamp tubes? I know they put a sticker on power tubes in a matched duet or quad. The sticker will show that all the tubes are within 3 to 5 per cent of each other.
> 
> That just plain sucks. What's wrong with these people?
> 
> How are you supposed to know if the "high gain" tube you just bought is a high gain?
> 
> Josh, if you want all of your CP tubes tested, no problem. I'd be curious to see what they read. The one's Joe sent me didn't test that bad at all. Some were lopsided more than I like (I like the tube to be + or - 2 points on each side, such as a 26-24). I can't complain as they were free.
> 
> Just put them in a box and send them my way. I'll take care of you.
> 
> _MARTY_



When I buy tubes from Doug's or Tubemongers they put the numbers on the box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

GOOD GRIEF, YOU STILL UP?

I thought I was wrapping it up on the thread tonight and then it says that Solar has left a post.

Well I'm glad some of these sellers are putting the test results down.

Man, I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Goodnight!

_MARTY_


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> GOOD GRIEF, YOU STILL UP?
> 
> I thought I was wrapping it up on the thread tonight and then it says that Solar has left a post.
> 
> Well I'm glad some of these sellers are putting the test results down.
> 
> Man, I'm tired. I'm going to bed. Goodnight!
> 
> _MARTY_



I gotta go to work now! I'll talk to you guys tomorrow.


----------



## Landshark

Hi guys! I've read the last couple pages of this thread and I'm a little confused about how the preamp tubes work. As you'll see in my signature I play a tsl and I have of course not NOS tubes but new JJ ECC83's and E34l"s and they are all high gain with one ECC83 balanced.

Sorry if this may have been covered already (and judging by how many pages are in the thread it probably has) but do NOS tubes and the newer tubes operate differently? The ECC83 in V4 is balanced but the others are all high gain. My clean channel is very full but doesn't get any crunch with higher volumes (not that I'm looking for it to either I just don't understand how some tubes cause that and some don't). 

I like my marshall to scream. Any recommendations for NOS tubes that might get me an even better high gain sound then what I have in there now?

Edit: The second question was for my yellow and red channels.


----------



## solarburn

Landshark said:


> Hi guys! I've read the last couple pages of this thread and I'm a little confused about how the preamp tubes work. As you'll see in my signature I play a tsl and I have of course not NOS tubes but new JJ ECC83's and E34l"s and they are all high gain with one ECC83 balanced.
> 
> Sorry if this may have been covered already (and judging by how many pages are in the thread it probably has) but do NOS tubes and the newer tubes operate differently? The ECC83 in V4 is balanced but the others are all high gain. My clean channel is very full but doesn't get any crunch with higher volumes (not that I'm looking for it to either I just don't understand how some tubes cause that and some don't).
> 
> I like my marshall to scream. Any recommendations for NOS tubes that might get me an even better high gain sound then what I have in there now?
> 
> Edit: The second question was for my yellow and red channels.



Its probably screaming "get these JJ's out of me"!

I'm joking. Sometimes I can't hep myself.

You can get it screaming with V1 & V2 NOS no problem. V3 & V4(PI) can be medium gainers. Don't worry about getting a balanced tube in V4(Phase Inverter)slot. Doesn't have to be. Now I have my favorite pics for high gainers but I have a DSL. I'll let the TSL guys tell you what works in theirs so its closer to home so to speak.

I'm watching though so if they mess up I'll be back...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Landshark said:


> ... My clean channel is very full but doesn't get any crunch with higher volumes (not that I'm looking for it to either I just don't understand how some tubes cause that and some don't).
> 
> I like my marshall to scream. Any recommendations for NOS tubes that might get me an even better high gain sound then what I have in there now?
> 
> Edit: The second question was for my yellow and red channels.



If you want to keep a nice full sounding clean channel _and_ have more gain on tap w/ your crunch and lead channels, I would highly reccemend a mid gain 7025 in V1, and a high gain 12AX7 in V2. I have this set up in my TSL122 and it is sweeeeeeet. Not only is my clean channel warm and full, but my crunch channel _is_ classic rock. My Lead channel has TONS of gain, but I can still roll back the guitar's volume and have everything from screaming, to crunch, to clean. This is a very sweet, and very versitile setup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have taught you well. Time for you to go, grasshopper.

When the Empire strikes back, it will be with the Energizer Rabbit and a dozen of RCA 12AX7's. Total domination will be ours.

Yeah, that's some good advice. I don't like JJ's as they are too dark sounding. They work in some bright amps as they mellow them out. I don't have anything against current production (CP) tubes, but I rarely use them. 

Some people think it is difficult to obtain good NOS, or as I like to say ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) tubes. There are a lot of suppliers out there and with the high demand stuff they are pricey, but you can still get used or NOS Sylvania's fairly cheap. I'll take a Sylvania any time over CP. Sylvania made their tubes just as good as RCA. It all boils down to advertising and industry reputation. RCA was everybody's darling and they did develop a lot of tubes before anyone else. They were and still are the "it" American made tube. However, Sylvania actually stayed in tube production longer than RCA. A lot of the tube manufacturing had shifted over to Japan (including RCA). Sylvania continued to plug away making their tubes in America. I don't think I have ever seen a Sylvania that said, "Made in Japan" on it. On the other hand, one of my rarer tubes is an RCA Mullard. Mullard made the tube and labeled it RCA. Funny.

If you have a Marshall with four preamp tubes, it is imperative to put a good tube in V1 and V2. You can always tweak V3 and V4 later. As scientist's, we have spent hours doing exhaustive testing of various tubes in various positions. The result? There are many variables, however, the standard configuration is a medium gain tube in V1 (preferably a 7025, but a 12AX7A will sub). In V2 you want your solid high gainer in this position. Most of us are running this configuration. You can alter this arrangement somewhat to suit your taste. Some people like a crunchier clean and that means you can either reverse V1 with V2, or put a stouter tube in V1. More clean headroom can be achieved with a 5751 in V1 and a stout high gainer in V2.

Most of the advanced testing has been performed using DSL and TSL amps. I wish that members with older amps like an 800 would get involved rolling tubes. That would be great. (Hey, 900's too!)

I forsee great happiness with laughter and uncontrollable dancing in the privacy of one's home.

_MARTY _


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know Marty sure has been acting strange lately. I hope he hasn't flipped on us.

Maybe he's been taking some sort of "male supplement" to enhance his attitude?

Whatever it is, I'm sure there is an explanation for it...or I hope there is.

Fear not fellow members. This has happened once before and you just forgot about it. It soon will pass.

_MARTY _


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> [You know Marty sure has been acting strange lately. I hope he hasn't flipped on us.4"][/]
> 
> Maybe he's been taking some sort of "male supplement" to enhance his attitude?
> 
> Whatever it is, I'm sure there is an explanation for it...or I hope there is.
> 
> Fear not fellow members. This has happened once before and you just forgot about it. It some will pass.
> 
> _MARTY _



Did you make a major score on some outa worldly NOS and you're giddy cause of it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sort of like it, but no that's not it. It's something better.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sort of like it, but no that's not it. It's something better.
> 
> _MARTY _



Did you get the deal...with your business?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You answered so fast that the quote that you used had defects in it. I had to manually go in and clean it out and I replaced the word "some" with "soon." (A little typo on my part.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you get the deal...with your business?



No, I don't think that's going to pan out. I think the days of the VersaCab are pretty much over. No one wanted to make it and as I told my sister, "I invented the Frisbee that wouldn't fly." I just have to accept the facts and move on.

No, this has something to do with me, but then again it doesn't. It is more about us then me. Don't you just love riddles?

I guarantee that you will get it. Get it?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You answered so fast that the quote that you used had defects in it. I had to manually go in and clean it out and I replaced the word "some" with "soon." (A little typo on my part.)
> 
> _MARTY _



Are you inferring about the threads post count? I's trying to figure this out before I have to go get dinner for the kids hehe.

By the way it hit 103 in Seattle and where I live add 3 to 4 degrees to that!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No, I don't think that's going to pan out. I think the days of the VersaCab are pretty much over. No one wanted to make it and as I told my sister, "I invented the Frisbee that wouldn't fly." I just have to accept the facts and move on.
> 
> No, this has something to do with me, but then again it doesn't. It is more about us then me. Don't you just love riddles?
> 
> I guarantee that you will get it. Get it?
> 
> _MARTY _



Sorry to hear the cab didn't work out brutha but love your attitude about it! At least you gave your idea life even if it didn't pan out. Lots of respect for that!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry, I can't tell you and I'm afraid dinner will have to be made not knowing the answer. Rest assured, you will know the answer at the proper time. I gave you a huge clue when I said that it had happened before, except this time it will be even better.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry, I can't tell you and I'm afraid dinner will have to be made not knowing the answer. Rest assured, you will know the answer at the proper time. I gave you a huge clue when I said that it had happened before, except this time it will be even better.
> 
> _MARTY _



What are you up to...

I'm still 

Maybe...:eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Merry Christmas! Welcome to Christmas in July! Ho, ho, ho! (No, not that kind of "HO.")
> 
> Ahh yes. It's so nice when Christmas comes in July. Santa has a lot less trouble getting around on them steep roofs. No ice and snow to deal with. Ho, ho, ho. (Are you getting sick of the "HO's" yet?)
> 
> Stayed tuned to this thread, as I am sure there will be much buzzing and smiles all around.
> 
> _MARTY_



What did you do matey!?


----------



## MartyStrat54

On a regular note without all of the glam, I got my four Raytheon BP's and my four Sylvania GP's. These were won in the Second Round of bidding on EBAY with Kevin. Kevin sells a bunch of tubes on EBAY. 90 per cent are a mix of Raytheon and Sylvania, although he does sell RCA Black Plate tubes of all kinds.

He uses a tester that gives inaccurate readings. If I were him, I would toss it and get myself a real tube tester. Anyway, on his tester 130 is the max and almost all of the tubes I bought (five lots of four = 20, plus two freebies) read 129-129, 128-130 or 130-130. I tested the tubes on the old B and K and boy was I surprised. One tube that he tested at 129-129 tested on my B and K at 25-26. Okay, that's a good tube. I take another that was 129-129 and it tested at 32-29!

After testing all of the tubes, some of them are real screamers and I was glad to get about five of them that tested 25-25 or in that range. Those 'tweener tubes can sure sound good and they make a great poor man's V1.

I am upset as I have had to contact a buyer twice about two Amperex tubes that I won from him. They finally got back with me this afternoon and told me this cry baby story. He promised that I should get the tubes within a couple of days. I look at it this way, if your inventory is in disarray, get it in order before you start selling 20 items on EBAY. I just sold 14 items and I got everybody packed up and shipped out. 5 star service. (And these were power and output trannies. Not the lightest things to ship.) I'll probably be selling more in the coming months. I may wait until just before Christmas, as I may be able to get better prices.

When I get those Amperex, they better test out good, or I'll be pissed. They were tested on a TV-7 (good tester) and transposing the results to my tester, I'm hoping for at least 27-27 or better. I hope they aren't 25-32's or something that lopsided. BTW, I do have some tubes that are really off on one side. I got one that is like 27-44. (If I actually knew the exact signal path of my TSL, these tubes may actually be dynamite. Example: If the Clean channel only used triode A in V1 and V2, you could have tubes with say 24 #1 and 27 #2. However, the Crunch and Lead would use the two B triodes, so you could have the other side of the tubes higher, like 29 #3 and 34 #4.) Does that make sense? I still think the Clean channel only uses one side of V1 and V2. I'm almost sure that the Crunch and the Lead loop back through and uses the other sides of the tubes to get that extra gain.

Anyhoo, I am sort of looking at 7025's, but all there is right now are single tubes for sale. I want to find someone wanting to sell 4, 6 or 8. 

Looking forward to hearing about your tube rolling Josh. 

Oh! Nice thread you got going Joe. I stopped in and took a look. I didn't post cuz I don't use those sort of pedals. I mean I have a s**t load of pedals and two multi-effect units and that's more than enough for me. I do sometimes put my Boss EQ in the FX loop and bounce the mids a bit. I like raw, nasty pedals. The kind that make my Marshall wonder what in the hell it's gotten into.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> On a regular note without all of the glam, I got my four Raytheon BP's and my four Sylvania GP's. These were won in the Second Round of bidding on EBAY with Kevin. Kevin sells a bunch of tubes on EBAY. 90 per cent are a mix of Raytheon and Sylvania, although he does sell RCA Black Plate tubes of all kinds.
> 
> He uses a tester that gives inaccurate readings. If I were him, I would toss it and get myself a real tube tester. Anyway, on his tester 130 is the max and almost all of the tubes I bought (five lots of four = 20, plus two freebies) read 129-129, 128-130 or 130-130. I tested the tubes on the old B and K and boy was I surprised. One tube that he tested at 129-129 tested on my B and K at 25-26. Okay, that's a good tube. I take another that was 129-129 and it tested at 32-29!
> 
> After testing all of the tubes, some of them are real screamers and I was glad to get about five of them that tested 25-25 or in that range. Those 'tweener tubes can sure sound good and they make a great poor man's V1.
> 
> I am upset as I have had to contact a buyer twice about two Amperex tubes that I won from him. They finally got back with me this afternoon and told me this cry baby story. He promised that I should get the tubes within a couple of days. I look at it this way, if your inventory is in disarray, get it in order before you start selling 20 items on EBAY. I just sold 14 items and I got everybody packed up and shipped out. 5 star service. (And these were power and output trannies. Not the lightest things to ship.) I'll probably be selling more in the coming months. I may wait until just before Christmas, as I may be able to get better prices.
> 
> When I get those Amperex, they better test out good, or I'll be pissed. They were tested on a TV-7 (good tester) and transposing the results to my tester, I'm hoping for at least 27-27 or better. I hope they aren't 25-32's or something that lopsided. BTW, I do have some tubes that are really off on one side. I got one that is like 27-44. (If I actually knew the exact signal path of my TSL, these tubes may actually be dynamite. Example: If the Clean channel only used triode A in V1 and V2, you could have tubes with say 24 #1 and 27 #2. However, the Crunch and Lead would use the two B triodes, so you could have the other side of the tubes higher, like 29 #3 and 34 #4.) Does that make sense? I still think the Clean channel only uses one side of V1 and V2. I'm almost sure that the Crunch and the Lead loop back through and uses the other sides of the tubes to get that extra gain.
> 
> Anyhoo, I am sort of looking at 7025's, but all there is right now are single tubes for sale. I want to find someone wanting to sell 4, 6 or 8.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing about your tube rolling Josh.
> 
> Oh! Nice thread you got going Joe. I stopped in and took a look. I didn't post cuz I don't use those sort of pedals. I mean I have a s**t load of pedals and two multi-effect units and that's more than enough for me. I do sometimes put my Boss EQ in the FX loop and bounce the mids a bit. I like raw, nasty pedals. The kind that make my Marshall wonder what in the hell it's gotten into.
> 
> _MARTY _



I'm picturing you wearing a Viking war helmet with horns sticking out of it, firing up your Marshall and stepping on the pedal of "Death". The Marshall then turns into a fire breathing Dragon. A "War cry" later its all...

You know you don the helmet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it's something like that. I usually wear nothing but a bed sheet and I'm drunk on cheap wine and my helmet is a popcorn bowl, but you pretty much got it right. I put my 122 in the window facing outward like an AC unit. I then play the Star Spangled Banner with two distortion pedals at once. I repeat this until the cops come and arrest me for disturbing the peace.

Anyway the Amperex got here today and they test at 28-31 and 32-29. Yeah!
I was hoping for at least 27-27 and I got it. Both of those will make awesome V2's. (I wonder if I should do a test with all Amperex? I have Amperex 7025's and plenty of missles.Maybe I'll try that sometime.) Or not.

I like a mix of various brands. You know a "mutt" mix. An RCA, an Amperex, a Raytheon and a Sylvania. Yeah, that sound nice. 

My Schecter has developed a slight fret problem. When I hit an F on the high E string it slightly hits the top of the F# fret causing a semi-dead tone. No other strings or frets, just that one. If I slide up to the F# the G is okay. I guess I have a slightly high F# fret wire. However, since this is the preamp tube thread, I shouldn't have posted this. Sorry, I'm bad.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

If you need a 900-user guinea pig for some tube rolling I'm your guy, Marty. Ho attenuator?


----------



## MartyStrat54

LesPaulopolis said:


> If you need a 900-user guinea pig for some tube rolling I'm your guy, Marty. Ho attenuator?



Sorry for all of the "humor." We are usually more scientific.

Yes, I know you and you have been on the forum for quite some time. It would be great to have you on board. 

The first question is what tubes are you running now (pre and pwr)?

Are you happy with your clean sound?

Does your Lead sounds get fizzy at any certain volume levels?

What would you like to improve in your tone/sound?

Fill me in on this and me and the guys can offer our help. If you are using current production (CP) tubes, I will tell you right now that your tone will improve greatly with the right combination of NOS or ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) tubes. We have come up with a combination and so far it works great on the DSL and the TSL. Let me know what you are running and what tone problems you may be having. 

Also, what cab and what speakers?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it's something like that. I usually wear nothing but a bed sheet and I'm drunk on cheap wine and my helmet is a popcorn bowl, but you pretty much got it right. I put my 122 in the window facing outward like an AC unit. I then play the Star Spangled Banner with two distortion pedals at once. I repeat this until the cops come and arrest me for disturbing the peace.
> 
> Anyway the Amperex got here today and they test at 28-31 and 32-29. Yeah!
> I was hoping for at least 27-27 and I got it. Both of those will make awesome V2's. (I wonder if I should do a test with all Amperex? I have Amperex 7025's and plenty of missles.Maybe I'll try that sometime.) Or not.
> 
> I like a mix of various brands. You know a "mutt" mix. An RCA, an Amperex, a Raytheon and a Sylvania. Yeah, that sound nice.
> 
> My Schecter has developed a slight fret problem. When I hit an F on the high E string it slightly hits the top of the F# fret causing a semi-dead tone. No other strings or frets, just that one. If I slide up to the F# the G is okay. I guess I have a slightly high F# fret wire. However, since this is the preamp tube thread, I shouldn't have posted this. Sorry, I'm bad.
> 
> _MARTY _



Hahahaha! That's golden man!

My familia is leaving for a week excursion to the in laws and I will be able to crank my amp all week long. The house is mine. The governor is off! Full throttle. I can do some major test'n on some tube combination's I haven't used yet. Maybe sneak some NP's in there and mark the differences.

Funny you should mention the fiddle and frets. I have to get my HH Tele in ASAP for a re fret job as it has some real bad death spots on it. That's my baby. So I have to use the strat till then. At least it has a humbucker in the bridge but I'll have to get use to its character while tube'n on the Marshall. I mostly use it with the NT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I think it just needs a hair taken off and it will be fine. I'm tempted to do it myself, but since it is a nice guitar, I think I'll let a pro do it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm sorta getting back to normal. I picked up a couple of 1959 RCA 7025 for $33 today. Just a quick little buy on EBAY. I did take a look at some of the upcoming auctions and there are several 7025 multi tube listings. Two are "Buy It Now." I'm tempted, but the unit price is $30 a piece and I like to keep it at around 15 to 25. (How else can I pass on them smoking deals to my favorite regulars?) I have to make a few bucks so I can feast on those $1 WalMart burritos.

Anyhow the seller said that both 7025's tested over 100. My question is, "On what?" Kevin's tester is crap and the only guys that give good test results usually have a Hickok, TV-7, or ta-da, a B and K. The TV-7 test scores are such that I can pretty much tell how my tester is going to read. On a TV-7, 32 is minimum good for a 12AX7. On my B and K it is 22. If it reads 44 on a TV-7, it will read around 34 on my B and K. Remember 22 is "good," but 30 is massive. A little change in the test scores equals a huge change in the tubes gain factor. 

I'm looking forward to testing these golden oldies. 1959...I was five years old.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> My Schecter has developed a slight fret problem. When I hit an F on the high E string it slightly hits the top of the F# fret causing a semi-dead tone. No other strings or frets, just that one. If I slide up to the F# the G is okay. I guess I have a slightly high F# fret wire. However, since this is the preamp tube thread, I shouldn't have posted this. Sorry, I'm bad.



It may be the humidity. My Les Paul does that on the high E, too. Before you spend money on a fret dress, try adding a little relief to the neck. It probably won't take much at all.

Joe, did you complete your V3/AT7 experiment?


----------



## LesPaulopolis

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry for all of the "humor." We are usually more scientific.
> 
> Yes, I know you and you have been on the forum for quite some time. It would be great to have you on board.
> 
> The first question is what tubes are you running now (pre and pwr)?
> 
> Are you happy with your clean sound?
> 
> Does your Lead sounds get fizzy at any certain volume levels?
> 
> What would you like to improve in your tone/sound?
> 
> Fill me in on this and me and the guys can offer our help. If you are using current production (CP) tubes, I will tell you right now that your tone will improve greatly with the right combination of NOS or ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) tubes. We have come up with a combination and so far it works great on the DSL and the TSL. Let me know what you are running and what tone problems you may be having.
> 
> Also, what cab and what speakers?
> 
> _MARTY _



I'm running Sovtek EL34s...don't know how old cuz I've never retubed it! The amp is from 1990...is it possible these are stock tubes? Bought it used from a music store but they had no idea about the previous owner.

Don't know the pre ones! Whatever was stock maybe???

1960a cab w/stock Celestions.

My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it.

The gain doesn't get fizzy b/c I keep it pretty low. However, maybe some better tubes would make more of the gain usuable? I swear I can HEAR the diodes engage after 8 on the dial so I keep it just below that and it's quite smooth and creamy. I'd like the amp to be darker, but not too dark as I like a snappy/trebly sound (why I got it initially). Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound.

I'm pretty happy with the amp as-is (8/10), but am always gassing to try new things since I'm a bit of a tube newb. Definitely want to do the whole re-tube and get biasing etc. myself. I can get the tools, just need the tubes!

My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

LesPaulopolis said:


> I'm running Sovtek EL34s...don't know how old cuz I've never retubed it! The amp is from 1990...is it possible these are stock tubes? Bought it used from a music store but they had no idea about the previous owner.



LesPaulopolis, welcome aboard. Look and see if the Sovteks are EL34G's. If they are, they could be original. Those tubes get a bad rap, but I have a quad of them that I pulled out of a Laney that was made in the 1980's and I thought they sounded pretty good in that amp. 

If you're looking to replace them, a couple of good, current production tube choices are the Groove Tubes EL34M Mullard Reissues and the SED Winged C's.

You can really change the tonal characteristics of your amp with the right NOS preamp tubes. Solarburn steered me toward a good preamp tube that'll darken up your amp - RFT's have a good, dark tone that's great in a Marshall. 

If once you start down the NOS path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Marty's apprentice.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It may be the humidity. My Les Paul does that on the high E, too. Before you spend money on a fret dress, try adding a little relief to the neck. It probably won't take much at all.
> 
> Joe, did you complete your V3/AT7 experiment?



What's up Rivvey! I am still testing it out but so far the overall sound is great! I'm gonna go back and forth with a couple other AX7's to make sure I'm not missing anything from that slot. 

What exactly did you notice change when you put the AT7 in compared to the AX7? How did it effect the gain and did it make the cleans sound better? I know that's subjective but go ahead and opine anyways.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Josher! Welcome back to your thread!
> 
> Soooooo...what 3 & 4 did you try first and how'd it sound?



V1:

 V2:

 ​ 
V3 & V4 Respectively:







​ 
Well... I got so far as cleaning the tube sockets and throwing the "GE Twins" in slots 3 & 4, but alas... As soon as I reached for the power switch... Life got busy and took over again. So... I haven't had a chance to play 'em yet. I'm hoping for a couple of hours tonight or tomorrow (maybe Sunday) to give them a good work out. I'll keep ya posted as soon as there is something to report!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> No, I don't think that's going to pan out. I think the days of the VersaCab are pretty much over. No one wanted to make it and as I told my sister, "I invented the Frisbee that wouldn't fly." I just have to accept the facts and move on.
> 
> No, this has something to do with me, but then again it doesn't. It is more about us then me. Don't you just love riddles?
> 
> I guarantee that you will get it. Get it?
> 
> _MARTY _


Sooo cryptic. I think we are all wondering exactly what mushrooms Marty found and where we can get some! Wow. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... BTW, I do have some tubes that are really off on one side. I got one that is like 27-44. (If I actually knew the exact signal path of my TSL, these tubes may actually be dynamite. Example: If the Clean channel only used triode A in V1 and V2, you could have tubes with say 24 #1 and 27 #2. However, the Crunch and Lead would use the two B triodes, so you could have the other side of the tubes higher, like 29 #3 and 34 #4.) Does that make sense? I still think the Clean channel only uses one side of V1 and V2. I'm almost sure that the Crunch and the Lead loop back through and uses the other sides of the tubes to get that extra gain._... _



This is something I am jonesin' to know myself, but as yet I just can't seem to find anything or anyone who can really explain how the signal path in the TSL _actually_ works!



MartyStrat54 said:


> My Schecter has developed a slight fret problem. When I hit an F on the high E string it slightly hits the top of the F# fret causing a semi-dead tone. No other strings or frets, just that one. If I slide up to the F# the G is okay. I guess I have a slightly high F# fret wire. However, since this is the preamp tube thread, I shouldn't have posted this. Sorry, I'm bad.



Probably humidity... I had that happen w/ my PRS actually... Took it in. Had a set up and re-string, and wallah! Good as gold!



MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it's something like that. I usually wear nothing but a bed sheet and I'm drunk on cheap wine and my helmet is a popcorn bowl, but you pretty much got it right. I put my 122 in the window facing outward like an AC unit. I then play the Star Spangled Banner with two distortion pedals at once. I repeat this until the cops come and arrest me for disturbing the peace.



Hmm... This I actually find to be a pretty disturbing picture... 

... 



LesPaulopolis said:


> If you need a 900-user guinea pig for some tube rolling I'm your guy, Marty. Ho attenuator?



Welcome to the fold!​


----------



## solarburn

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> ​
> V3 & V4 Respectively:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Well... I got so far as cleaning the tube sockets and throwing the "GE Twins" in slots 3 & 4, but alas... As soon as I reached for the power switch... Life got busy and took over again. So... I haven't had a chance to play 'em yet. I'm hoping for a couple of hours tonight or tomorrow (maybe Sunday) to give them a good work out. I'll keep ya posted as soon as there is something to report!



Cool Josh! Look forward to the review. 

I actually let a NP AX7 invade my preamp section. I've got a Tung Sol RI in the PI and I think it sounds good there. RR has me using an AT7 in V3 right now. A tube with a gain factor of 60. Still experimenting with it but initially it hasn't hurt the gain(that I can tell)and maybe even made the clean better. Overall no negative impact to my ears.

My family left me alone for a week so I can actually crank the amp to my hearts desire bar the neighbors getting after me. I moved it out into the living room paired up to the 412 GB's. Out in front of the house it may impact the neighbors more. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

LesPaulopolis said:


> I'm running Sovtek EL34s...don't know how old cuz I've never retubed it! The amp is from 1990...is it possible these are stock tubes? Bought it used from a music store but they had no idea about the previous owner.
> 
> Don't know the pre ones! Whatever was stock maybe???
> 
> 1960a cab w/stock Celestions.
> 
> My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it.
> 
> The gain doesn't get fizzy b/c I keep it pretty low. However, maybe some better tubes would make more of the gain usuable? I swear I can HEAR the diodes engage after 8 on the dial so I keep it just below that and it's quite smooth and creamy. I'd like the amp to be darker, but not too dark as I like a snappy/trebly sound (why I got it initially). Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the amp as-is (8/10), but am always gassing to try new things since I'm a bit of a tube newb. Definitely want to do the whole re-tube and get biasing etc. myself. I can get the tools, just need the tubes!
> 
> My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!



I vote for finding out how the DSL's & TSL's tried and true combo of a mid gain 7025 in V1 & high gain 12AX7 in V2 would work in a 900. I've only played a JCM 900 a couple times and they sure seem to be different critters from the JCM2000's... But hearing your tone requirements... And knowing what's generally tried and true among the folks on the forum... That's where I'd start.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cool Josh! Look forward to the review.
> 
> I actually let a NP AX7 invade my preamp section. I've got a Tung Sol RI in the PI and I think it sounds good there. RR has me using an AT7 in V3 right now. A tube with a gain factor of 60. Still experimenting with it but initially it hasn't hurt the gain(that I can tell)and maybe even made the clean better. Overall no negative impact to my ears.
> 
> My family left me alone for a week so I can actually crank the amp to my hearts desire bar the neighbors getting after me. I moved it out into the living room paired up to the 412 GB's. Out in front of the house it may impact the neighbors more. We'll see how that goes.



Rock on Mate!


----------



## MartyStrat54

LesPaulopolis said:


> I'm running Sovtek EL34s...don't know how old cuz I've never retubed it! The amp is from 1990...is it possible these are stock tubes? Bought it used from a music store but they had no idea about the previous owner.
> 
> Don't know the pre ones! Whatever was stock maybe???
> 
> 1960a cab w/stock Celestions.
> 
> My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it.
> 
> The gain doesn't get fizzy b/c I keep it pretty low. However, maybe some better tubes would make more of the gain usuable? I swear I can HEAR the diodes engage after 8 on the dial so I keep it just below that and it's quite smooth and creamy. I'd like the amp to be darker, but not too dark as I like a snappy/trebly sound (why I got it initially). Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the amp as-is (8/10), but am always gassing to try new things since I'm a bit of a tube newb. Definitely want to do the whole re-tube and get biasing etc. myself. I can get the tools, just need the tubes!
> 
> My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!



The first thing I will comment on is the power tubes. You are taking a chance running old power tubes. If one of them decides to "cave in" it will do some damage to the main board and possibly the transformers. I recommend that you change out the power tubes before doing anything else.

If your funds are limited, I still say change the power tubes and hold off on the other stuff I am about to say.

1960A Cab. Is it loaded with G12-75's? A better option based on your statement about "ice pick highs" would be V30's. They are a little thicker in the mid's. Personally, I do not use Celestion speakers. I use NOS JBL and Altec and new production Eminence speakers. I run a pair of Eminence Man O' War speakers in my TSL122 combo and it sounds a lot better than the original speakers. Eminence makes a speaker that I use in a Randall 212 Combo that will smooth out the top end. It is called the "Red, White and Blues" speaker. Very nice and high power handling. Eminence has three types of guitar speakers. Their original lineup (which has some damn good models), the Redcoat Series (British voiced) and the Patriot Series (American voiced). Now there are other brands of speakers, but they can get really high priced. I have found that the Eminence line up meets all of my needs.

"My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it."

If money is tight and you can't spring for all of these new toys I'm talking about, let's go straight to the preamp tubes. Your amp is one of the few that I will recommend using one or two JJ's. Out of the current production tubes, JJ's are the darkest. You may need to experiment with the tube in V1 or V2 to see which position gives the most desirable effect. I would try a Mullard long plate (CP) in V1, a JJ in V2 and V3 and a Tung-Sol short plate in V4.

Now if you were to use ANOS tubes, I would go with a medium gain Raytheon BP in V1 and a high gain Raytheon BP in V2 and then a couple of Sylvania's in V3 and V4. The Black Plates are magical tubes and they produces a more mid happy sound with an airy high end. You can get thick, crunchy power chords with these tubes. This would be a sweet setup in your 4100.

"Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound."

Again, if I had a 4100, I would change out the speakers and the preamp tubes. I know, I know...it's a lot of dough. I'm just suggesting how you could make your amp a 9.8 out of 10. I used to be a semi-pro race car driver. If you took a stock motor and put $1000 into it, it would knock 2 seconds off the quarter mile time. However, to knock another 2 seconds off requires $5000. Another two seconds $9000. You see my point? You can take a stock amp (and cab) and spend $200 on new power and preamp tubes (CP) and the amp is going to sound different (hopefully better). Or, you could buy a set of 1962 Mullard EL34's and four NOS tubes and it would sound even better, but it would cost more. Finally, you could change the speakers out in your cab. The risk here is that there are so many to choose from. The odds of spending money on four speakers and hitting the nail on the head is slight to say the least. I just recommended the Red, White and Blues, because I have worked with Eminence and I know their product line.

"My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!"

Another Eminence speaker that would nail these tones is called Swamp Thang. Now I will say that the speakers I have suggested are Patriot speakers. The Redcoat Series has the British voiced speakers and they offer speakers that are close in sound to several Celestion speakers. However, these speakers tend to be heavy on the bright side. The Man O' War speakers that I run are not the hottest high end speakers. There are several models with more top end. Believe me, I get all the top end I want. I usually run the high EQ at 4 or 5.

If you are low on cash, but want to try NOS tubes, just send me a PM and I will give you some options. Feel free to contact me about any tube/speaker issues. I will be glad to help.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The first thing I will comment on is the power tubes. You are taking a chance running old power tubes. If one of them decides to "cave in" it will do some damage to the main board and possibly the transformers. I recommend that you change out the power tubes before doing anything else.
> 
> If your funds are limited, I still say change the power tubes and hold off on the other stuff I am about to say.
> 
> 1960A Cab. Is it loaded with G12-75's? A better option based on your statement about "ice pick highs" would be V30's. They are a little thicker in the mid's. Personally, I do not use Celestion speakers. I use NOS JBL and Altec and new production Eminence speakers. I run a pair of Eminence Man O' War speakers in my TSL122 combo and it sounds a lot better than the original speakers. Eminence makes a speaker that I use in a Randall 212 Combo that will smooth out the top end. It is called the "Red, White and Blues" speaker. Very nice and high power handling. Eminence has three types of guitar speakers. Their original lineup (which has some damn good models), the Redcoat Series (British voiced) and the Patriot Series (American voiced). Now there are other brands of speakers, but they can get really high priced. I have found that the Eminence line up meets all of my needs.
> 
> "My clean is a little too bright (obv...it's a 4100!) but I use the tone controls to tame it."
> 
> If money is tight and you can't spring for all of these new toys I'm talking about, let's go straight to the preamp tubes. Your amp is one of the few that I will recommend using one or two JJ's. Out of the current production tubes, JJ's are the darkest. You may need to experiment with the tube in V1 or V2 to see which position gives the most desirable effect. I would try a Mullard long plate (CP) in V1, a JJ in V2 and V3 and a Tung-Sol short plate in V4.
> 
> Now if you were to use ANOS tubes, I would go with a medium gain Raytheon BP in V1 and a high gain Raytheon BP in V2 and then a couple of Sylvania's in V3 and V4. The Black Plates are magical tubes and they produces a more mid happy sound with an airy high end. You can get thick, crunchy power chords with these tubes. This would be a sweet setup in your 4100.
> 
> "Really, just need to tame the icepicky notes at high volume and increase my pick attack/sensitivity if possible. Would also enjoy a more 'sparkley' sound."
> 
> Again, if I had a 4100, I would change out the speakers and the preamp tubes. I know, I know...it's a lot of dough. I'm just suggesting how you could make your amp a 9.8 out of 10. I used to be a semi-pro race car driver. If you took a stock motor and put $1000 into it, it would knock 2 seconds off the quarter mile time. However, to knock another 2 seconds off requires $5000. Another two seconds $9000. You see my point? You can take a stock amp (and cab) and spend $200 on new power and preamp tubes (CP) and the amp is going to sound different (hopefully better). Or, you could buy a set of 1962 Mullard EL34's and four NOS tubes and it would sound even better, but it would cost more. Finally, you could change the speakers out in your cab. The risk here is that there are so many to choose from. The odds of spending money on four speakers and hitting the nail on the heard is slight to say the least. I just recommended the Red, White and Blues, because I have worked with Eminence and I know their product line.
> 
> My music style is hard rock. Not pure-metal, but metal influenced. Very 90's hard rock loud/quiet/loud dynamics. I guess Judas Priest meets Alice in Chains crunch + Gilmouresque cleans is my holy grail tone. Actually, the 900 hits those tones pretty well, but not perfect, y'know? Thanks for the help!!!
> 
> Another Eminence speaker that would nail these tones is called Swamp Thang. Now I will say that the speakers I have suggested are Patriot speakers. The Redcoat Series has the Britished voiced speakers and they offer speakers that are close in sound to several Celestion speakers. However, these speakers tend to be heavy on the bright side. The Man O' War speakers that I run are not the hottest high end speakers. There are several models with more top end. Believe me, I get all the top end I want. I usually run the high EQ at 4 or 5.
> 
> If you are low on cash, but want to try NOS tubes, just send me a PM and I will give you some options. Feel free to contact me about any tube/speaker issues. I will be glad to help.
> 
> _MARTY _



Not to add a bunch of stuff to Marty's post but one other speaker choice that has a restrained top end is the GK100's. These have and a deep lowend, smooth but present mids and the restrained topend. They are not scooped at all. I have a pair and you can play blues, rock, hardrock and even modern metal with them. Lot of players are pairing them up with V30's in an X pattern 412.

Just wanted to interject this because it would help the ice pick highs of which I hate as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy, just when I think I'm the only one posting, I get done with a post and when I hit the "Submit Reply" icon, I find out a whole bunch of stuff has been posted. Man are you guys sneaky. How do you do it?

I can't wait to hear if the GE's work out well. Remember, you may have to swap them around for the best results.

As usual, Joe is piddling around with an AT7. "Hey Joe! How about a 12AY7?" That will shave some gain off. No really, an AT7 in V3 and/or V4 is not going to be that noticeable and I would say that an AT7 in V3 will help make the clean channel more clean...if that is possible. As I said, I know hi fi freaks that use AT7's in the front stage of their tube amps. It gives the amp a very quiet signal to the second stage and then to the power tubes. Very nice!

Well I have some stuff to do. I'll check back later and maybe two more pages will have been added.


----------



## RiverRatt

My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.



Can I go??? I'll pay my own way. The last time I was there in Nashville, I was overwhelmed by the amount of used gear for sale. The pawn shops were loaded with (a s**t load of Peavey gear, go figure). All them hopes, dreams and aspirations gone down the tube and the gear gets sold for a bus ticket home. Tisk, tisk!

On the other hand, Nashville (and especially Memphis) has seen the ole crime rate go through the roof. Felony crime is way up. Did I say muggings?

On a better note, please feel free to post about your AT7 findings. I am going to be helping LesPaulopolis with his 900. It has a lot of high end I want to smooth out. I'm thinking a medium gain BP in V1 with a high gain BP in V2. This should give a more pronounced, tighter midrange and a smooth top end. However, maybe an AT7 in V3 would fortify this? Just a thought.

Keep me posted, as I'm sure this place will be buzzing soon with new found information.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> My experience with the 12AT7 in V3 is that it seems to tame the treble. Also, I think it gives both channels a little more punch. A third thing I noticed last night, and I want to crank it up this weekend and see for sure, is that the 12AT7 may sound a bit compressed, kinda like a Fender amp running 6V6's full tilt. Not quite Neil Young sounding. More on this later, especially if I don't end up playing Fallout 3 all weekend - the kids got me addicted. Also, going to Nashvegas with the family tomorrow to shop around and eat a decent meal. Probably won't buy anything much, but it's fun to look. See what used gear Guitar Center has lying around.



1. Yes on taming the treble frequency. I thought it sounded a bit warmer after I put it in.

2. Punch? Possibly but I need to go back and forth a few times with an AX7 to see.

3. I to think I hear a lil' more compression or tightning and that may be translating into more punch. Not sure yet...

I still need a few more back and forth sessions. Keep me posted on what you find after cranking it.


----------



## solarburn

Since you guys can't see my face, I have a big ole' grin on it. Why you ask?

Cause I have 2 NOS MM tubes that came in the mail. MM you wonder?

Martimus Maximus tubes which have been tested and blessed by the Manimal himself!

I am to have a collection of NOS tubes like a cellar of fine wines aging to perfection. Moy buente!

Many thanks to the man of fine tastes and generous disposition. You know who you are!

I do the dancing now!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Not to add a bunch of stuff to Marty's post but one other speaker choice that has a restrained top end is the GK100's. These have and a deep lowend, smooth but present mids and the restrained topend. They are not scooped at all. I have a pair and you can play blues, rock, hardrock and even modern metal with them. Lot of players are pairing them up with V30's in an X pattern 412.
> 
> Just wanted to interject this because it would help the ice pick highs of which I hate as well.



Imagine if there was a forum where you could go to that you could put any speaker into any cab and have a certain style of music played through any amp you desired? That would be one huge website!!! Cool thought anyway. 

Yeah the problem with speakers is there are so many of them. Have you ever looked at just the Celestion catalog? They make a lot more speakers than you think. Eminence is huge and then there are Wharfdale/VOX and Tone Tubby and the list is very long. Oh, let's not forget vintage speakers like JBL, Altec and EV. Then there is B and C and RCF. God, I could keep going on. It would be nice to pick the exact speakers that you needed, but I don't think it happens that often. When you buy speakers, you own them, you can't take them back. "Oh, I thought that these would give me some good bottom end. They sound flabby and I want to return them." "Go away kid, you're bothering me." When I took the Wolverines out of the 602's, I knew anything would sound better than them. I didn't even bother to try and sell them on EBAY. I had an expensive pair out of my TSL122 that I sold on EBAY and I only made 80 bucks off of them. What does that tell you? 

I have used a lot of Eminence speakers, so I have a good feel for what they do. I do have some 10 and 12-inch B and C speakers that are high end, cast frame, high watt models. I've been experimenting with the Eminence Delta Pro 12A. It has the ability to be used as either a bass or guitar speaker. It has a massive 300 watts of power handling. It is a neutral speaker. You get your tone from your amp. It is heavy, but it does a lot of things really well. I would compare it to a JBL E-120.

A lot of speakers add a lot of coloration to the overall sound. Some have a peak at 4K making them in some cases harsh. A lot of guitar speakers have a big peak around 2K. This puts a bite on the mids. The Delta Pro 12A is a flat response speaker. It could be used in a PA system where flat response is a must. I've tried it in several cabs and I'm really impressed. Too bad it weighs so much. Four of these would give you a 1200 watt cab and you would need a crane to lift it. Maybe the perfect speaker for a permanent backline. 

Well, I got off on this speaker tangent and I'm sorry. I need to keep focused on tubes and tube talk. Sometimes the old man just fizzles out. "Where's my rocking chair and a cold beer!"

I'm sure that there are others that will be able to come up with new tube topics. I look forward to hearing from you.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> MartyStrat54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...No, this has something to do with me, but then again it doesn't. It is more about us then me. Don't you just love riddles?
> 
> I guarantee that you will get it. Get it?
> 
> _MARTY _
> 
> 
> 
> Sooo cryptic. I think we are all wondering exactly what mushrooms Marty found and where we can get some! Wow. ...
Click to expand...




solarburnDSL50 said:


> Since you guys can't see my face, I have a big ole' grin on it. Why you ask?
> 
> Cause I have 2 NOS MM tubes that came in the mail. MM you wonder?
> 
> Martimus Maximus tubes which have been tested and blessed by the Manimal himself!
> 
> I am to have a collection of NOS tubes like a cellar of fine wines aging to perfection. Moy buente!
> 
> Many thanks to the man of fine tastes and generous disposition. You know who you are!
> 
> I do the dancing now!



Well... Now we know why _The Main Man Marty _was being sooo mysterious...

Imagine my surprise to arrive home and find a small package sitting on my doorstep. Like any married man my first thought was, "Now what did she buy?" But wait... What have we here? Something from Marty? Hmm... Suffice to say there was little time wasted getting in the door to open this mysterious parcel. And inside... Lovingly packaged in a bed of foam peanuts... Can you guess? I'd wager my good friend Solar has an idea... Yes, I too am beneficiary of the generosity of the The Marshall Forum's very own Obiwan Kenobi... <In case ya hadn't guessed I'm talking about Marty here>...

And without further adue...









Ok... I've run out what my own childish mind thinks are clever, pithy, things to say, so... Holy Crap Marty! Thanks Mate! You are the bestest!

And there was much rejoicing!




​


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can I go??? I'll pay my own way. The last time I was there in Nashville, I was overwhelmed by the amount of used gear for sale. The pawn shops were loaded with (a s**t load of Peavey gear, go figure). All them hopes, dreams and aspirations gone down the tube and the gear gets sold for a bus ticket home. Tisk, tisk!
> 
> On the other hand, Nashville (and especially Memphis) has seen the ole crime rate go through the roof. Felony crime is way up. Did I say muggings?
> 
> On a better note, please feel free to post about your AT7 findings. I am going to be helping LesPaulopolis with his 900. It has a lot of high end I want to smooth out. I'm thinking a medium gain BP in V1 with a high gain BP in V2. This should give a more pronounced, tighter midrange and a smooth top end. However, maybe an AT7 in V3 would fortify this? Just a thought.
> 
> Keep me posted, as I'm sure this place will be buzzing soon with new found information.
> 
> _MARTY _



I just put the 22-23 BP in V1 and the 27-26 BP in V2. Left the AT7 in V3. Warm as hell man. Nice round tone. I think with the lowend and nice lower mids of the BP's it will smooth the highend by themselves. Have to say with the AT7 in V3 I really believe it is adding warmness as well and the clean is even rounder sounding.

IMO the BP's will smoke the JJ's especially for the lower mids that you'd want for hardrock. The RFT's would too. At least the JJ's are cheaper and can save a guy some money. 

I don't want to sound like I'm picking on JJ's either. Lots of guys like em' in their Marshall's and I believe these guys when they say they get good tone while using JJ's. Like Marty stated they can tame a toppy amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well now that the candles have been blown out on the birthday cake, I guess we can all relax and take a deep breath and tell ourselves that life can be good.

Joe, if you look at your tubes, I think there is several rows of numbers. If both of your tubes say 26 or 62, they are 1962 tubes.

Josh, I noticed that one of your tubes came out of a different lot and it appears to be a 1959 model.

Nonetheless, these are top notched BP's and can go anywhere, but I thought that you guys would like some premium V3 and V4 tubes. I know it's tough running these kind of tubes in those positions, but you do with them what you see fit. Keep them as upgrade spares. Use them as V1 and V2. Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.

Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun.

_Martimus Maximus _


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.
> 
> Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun...=




Gotta hand it to ya Marty... After the 24.5% cut in pay I took this week... This really shed a nice warm ray of sunshine on my day today. Thanks mate! I really sincerely mean it. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And then it happened. Rain started to fall. Dogs were barking and babies were being born naked. The wise one stomped his staff in the ground. He was furious, because the tube guru, Martimus Maximus had stolen his thunder. Tubes he cried out. Them damn blasted tubes. Weeping, he turned and entered his cave never to be seen again.

Yeah baby, the wait is over and both packages arrived on the same day. How do I do it. With smoke and mirrors.

Weeping, uncontrollable laughter and dancing in the privacy of one's home. These were the words of the prophets and they all came to pass.

_Martimus Maximus _


----------



## joshuaaewallen




----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well now that the candles have been blown out on the birthday cake, I guess we can all relax and take a deep breath and tell ourselves that life can be good.
> 
> Joe, if you look at your tubes, I think there is several rows of numbers. If both of your tubes say 26 or 62, they are 1962 tubes.
> 
> Josh, I noticed that one of your tubes came out of a different lot and it appears to be a 1959 model.
> 
> Nonetheless, these are top notched BP's and can go anywhere, but I thought that you guys would like some premium V3 and V4 tubes. I know it's tough running these kind of tubes in those positions, but you do with them what you see fit. Keep them as upgrade spares. Use them as V1 and V2. Hey, the main thing is to have some damn fun.
> 
> Let's forget about the economy for a few days and just have some fun.
> 
> _Martimus Maximus _



I'll put em' in there and see how they sound. Have'n a great time Martimus!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Went to the bar and knocked down a few brews and ate a bunch of hot wings and a huge bacon cheeseburger. As usual, I ate a lot of fresh red onions. Tried to go to sleep, but to no avail. I took some Alka-Seltzer and I am letting that do its magic.

Damn Joe, I sometimes think you never go to sleep, but I understand you have the joint all to yourself and it sounds like you've been having some fun. Say "Hello" to the cops for me.

Yeah, just out of curiosity, put your 7025 and V2 back in and try the BP's in V3 and V4. Also, switch them around to see if that makes much of a difference having the stronger tube in V3 or V4. My ear tells me that the stronger tube will go in V3 and the other BP will be at home in the PI slot. Now I don't expect you to keep it that way, but I'm just curious about how it will sound.

Also, I will be doing a little business with LesPaulopolis and would you agree that a couple of BP's in V1 and V2 of the 900 should smooth out the top end?

I just feel this is the route to take with the 900 versus the 7025 and a stout V2. I mean, I would probably send him a 25-26 and a 30-31. That should blow the cobs out. What do you think after testing the BP's? Your conclusions are exactly as mine. My tests with the BP's showed that they tended to give a warmer, more rounded tone in the clean channel, but boy can they dish out the Captain Crunch. Nice fat crunchy chords. Anyway, I think this is the way to go with the 900. If he doesn't like the sound, he can send them back and we can go to Plan B, the 7025 and a Mullard. 

I have the luxury of having select V1's and V2's in my amps, but I also run nice tubes for V3 and V4. When you got a lot of tubes, you want the best in your amps. The Sylvania's have always been one of my favorites and I usually put Sylvania's in V3 and V4. Check this out. I am going to bid on some rare 12AX7A-7025 Sylvania's. I hope I can win them. These are long gray plate NIB/NOS. Sweet!

Anyway, I know that you have some great tubes. Better than a lot of players who use stock and think they have something. NOS tubes are fun to use, because they make the amp sound so damn good. I'll never stop using them.

_Martimus Maximus _


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Went to the bar and knocked down a few brews and ate a bunch of hot wings and a huge bacon cheeseburger. As usual, I ate a lot of fresh red onions. Tried to go to sleep, but to no avail. I took some Alka-Seltzer and I am letting that do its magic.
> 
> Damn Joe, I sometimes think you never go to sleep, but I understand you have the joint all to yourself and it sounds like you've been having some fun. Say "Hello" to the cops for me.
> 
> Yeah, just out of curiosity, put your 7025 and V2 back in and try the BP's in V3 and V4. Also, switch them around to see if that makes much of a difference having the stronger tube in V3 or V4. My ear tells me that the stronger tube will go in V3 and the other BP will be at home in the PI slot. Now I don't expect you to keep it that way, but I'm just curious about how it will sound.
> 
> Also, I will be doing a little business with LesPaulopolis and would you agree that a couple of BP's in V1 and V2 of the 900 should smooth out the top end?
> 
> I just feel this is the route to take with the 900 versus the 7025 and a stout V2. I mean, I would probably send him a 25-26 and a 30-31. That should blow the cobs out. What do you think after testing the BP's? Your conclusions are exactly as mine. My tests with the BP's showed that they tended to give a warmer, more rounded tone in the clean channel, but boy can they dish out the Captain Crunch. Nice fat crunchy chords. Anyway, I think this is the way to go with the 900. If he doesn't like the sound, he can send them back and we can go to Plan B, the 7025 and a Mullard.
> 
> I have the luxury of having select V1's and V2's in my amps, but I also run nice tubes for V3 and V4. When you got a lot of tubes, you want the best in your amps. The Sylvania's have always been one of my favorites and I usually put Sylvania's in V3 and V4. Check this out. I am going to bid on some rare 12AX7A-7025 Sylvania's. I hope I can win them. These are long gray plate NIB/NOS. Sweet!
> 
> Anyway, I know that you have some great tubes. Better than a lot of players who use stock and think they have something. NOS tubes are fun to use, because they make the amp sound so damn good. I'll never stop using them.
> 
> _Martimus Maximus _



You know this is my day time although I'm on my day off and have been up all day. Prolly go to sleep here in a couple hours.

Regarding the BP's in V1 & V2 I think it would be a great way to start out taming the ice picks but still having that hardrock smack to the gain. Man the clean with the strat is so warm and round. The kind of sensual tones that slide panties off I'm sure of it. All kidding aside though it really is toneful and lush. I'm very pleased.

I'll do the BP's in 3 & 4 tomorrow and see how it sounds.

Now I want a Bacon Cheese burger...


----------



## pal670

Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference. 
Also what tube would you recommend that I try?


----------



## MartyStrat54

pal670 said:


> Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference.
> Also what tube would you recommend that I try?



Hello PAL: I'm not real familiar with the AVT, but I would assume that there are some screws on the back panel to take out. I don't know if the single tube has a shield or not. If it does, take care to twist it off to get to the tube. If there is no shield, pull the tube out and take note of the pin orientation. As you should already know, there is a wide gap between pins #1 and #9. When you're ready to install the Tung-Sol, put the tube in the same position as it came out and gently apply pressure until it goes back in. You may have to slightly twist the tube to the left or right, but the main thing is to use the right amount of pressure or else you can bend the pins or worse, break the glass.

The Tung-Sol gold pin is a pretty sweet sounding tube and should work well in your AVT150.

Good luck and thanks for dropping in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was doing a little cruzing on the web and came across another long report on a variety of tubes. It talks about some of the things I mentioned a while back, such as military planes that still use tubes.

It goes into the run down of where tubes are made and who relabels them. It also states which relabeled tubes are the better buys. For one thing, I did not know that MESA was making the 12AX7M in California. That's a new one on me.

Towards the end, it has some hyperlinks that take you to tube comparisons and characteristics. I'm sorry that it is so long. Not that bad, but still long.

guitargeek: Tube Buyers Guide - REPOST

I was actually looking for info on the history of Black Plate tube. I used Dogpile as a search engine and I tried numerous search words. Never found anything.


----------



## solarburn

Ok. I did the stronger BP in V3 and the lower value in the PI. This sounded a hair warmer on the clean channel. I switched them around and found it was really close but maybe a smidge of lowend went away. Both were very close and could go either way. Me I'd take the warmer version but who knows...Maybe the ears are trick'n me.

I think I need a tube roll'n rest and try again after my ears have had a break. I just got back from jamm'n with a friend so my ears are pretty fatigued right now.

I'll get back to it later. I've got to take a nap now cause I have to work tonight so i will catch up with you guys some time later.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok. I did the stronger BP in V3 and the lower value in the PI. This sounded a hair warmer on the clean channel. I switched them around and found it was really close but maybe a smidge of lowend went away. Both were very close and could go either way. Me I'd take the warmer version but who knows...Maybe the ears are trick'n me.
> 
> I think I need a tube roll'n rest and try again after my ears have had a break. I just got back from jamm'n with a friend so my ears are pretty fatigued right now.
> 
> I'll get back to it later. I've got to take a nap now cause I have to work tonight so i will catch up with you guys some time later.



Yeah, I knew it would be tough trying to judge those tube positions. I could probably have you walk out of the room and replace V3 and V4 with a couple of Slyvania's and have you come back in and try to tell me if the BP's were still in the amp. It just goes to show that V3 and V4 are a whole lot more accommodating than V1 and V2. You can stick a AT7 in V3 and I probably wouldn't know it unless somebody told me. You could stick a 20-20 12AX7 in the PI slot and it would sound just fine. However, we all know that you can't do that with V1 and V2.

Joe, no need to bust a nut on this. I think what you did is good enough. I had tried various situations and I found that V3 will alter the "tone" slightly and V4 seems to alter the overall "dynamics." However, it is very subtle. 

This is just another reason to use CP tubes in these positions and save your best tubes for spares for V1 and V2. I think if your amp has NOS in V1 and V2 and two Electro-Harmonix in V3 and V4, the old Marty Manimal might not be able to tell.

Anyway Joe, thanks for your testing. I wanted to see how it stacked up to mine and our findings are mutual. I think two BP's in the 900 is the way to go.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I knew it would be tough trying to judge those tube positions. I could probably have you walk out of the room and replace V3 and V4 with a couple of Slyvania's and have you come back in and try to tell me if the BP's were still in the amp. It just goes to show that V3 and V4 are a whole lot more accommodating than V1 and V2. You can stick a AT7 in V3 and I probably wouldn't know it unless somebody told me. You could stick a 20-20 12AX7 in the PI slot and it would sound just fine. However, we all know that you can't do that with V1 and V2.
> 
> Joe, no need to bust a nut on this. I think what you did is good enough. I had tried various situations and I found that V3 will alter the "tone" slightly and V4 seems to alter the overall "dynamics." However, it is very subtle.
> 
> This is just another reason to use CP tubes in these positions and save your best tubes for spares for V1 and V2. I think if your amp has NOS in V1 and V2 and two Electro-Harmonix in V3 and V4, the old Marty Manimal might not be able to tell.
> 
> Anyway Joe, thanks for your testing. I wanted to see how it stacked up to mine and our findings are mutual. I think two BP's in the 900 is the way to go.



+ 10 to all of that!


----------



## Landshark

joshuaaewallen said:


> If you want to keep a nice full sounding clean channel _and_ have more gain on tap w/ your crunch and lead channels, I would highly reccemend a mid gain 7025 in V1, and a high gain 12AX7 in V2. I have this set up in my TSL122 and it is sweeeeeeet. Not only is my clean channel warm and full, but my crunch channel _is_ classic rock. My Lead channel has TONS of gain, but I can still roll back the guitar's volume and have everything from screaming, to crunch, to clean. This is a very sweet, and very versitile setup.



Alright here's a question I'm sure everyone will enjoy... What are some pros/ cons of using nos in V1 and V2 and then using some CP high gainers in V3 and V4? Since I have no NOS to mess with at the current moment I'm asking cause I can't find out on my own yet. That 2 gallon can of change in the corner is almost full and promises great things in the future... I just need a little direction


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Landshark said:


> Alright here's a question I'm sure everyone will enjoy... What are some pros/ cons of using nos in V1 and V2 and then using some CP high gainers in V3 and V4? Since I have no NOS to mess with at the current moment I'm asking cause I can't find out on my own yet. That 2 gallon can of change in the corner is almost full and promises great things in the future... I just need a little direction



Prior to my current tube line-up, I tried every tube I had access to, ranging from some NOS to current production tubes in all four positions. As we have already discussed, V1 & V2 definitely proved to be the most critical. However, it is interesting to note that from among the tubes I had at the time (after falling completely in love w/ the 7025 & 12AX7 in V1&2 slots) I actually found that I like the two JJ's in V3 & V4 the best. Who'd have thunk it? Now I will say that my current tube selection has improved significantly, and since I am totally in love w/ my current sound, I am really only looking to experiment w/ V3 & V4 (not because I am unhappy w/ my sound, but...) because I am looking for that sweet little bit of extra icing on the cake. My point? Even though I am confident that NOS tubes really are better in probably every respect, CP tubes are, in general, just fine and dandy for V3 & V4, and really like all things musical it just boils down to what sounds best to your ears.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What Josh said is correct and of course there is more about this in the above posts and also throughout this massive thread.

V1 and V2 is where you want to put NOS tubes in place. These have the biggest effect on tone and gain. V3 and V4 can be almost anything. We have even experimented with high gainers in V3 and V4 and they only make a little difference over regular gain tubes. So if you bought a couple of NOS tubes for V1 and V2, you could use your existing high gainers in V3 and V4. Not a problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I guess it had to happen sometime. I was looking at tubes on EBAY and came across a "company" that was selling 4 lots of 12AX7's under the name of "Tone Packs." All they are doing is taking odds and ends 12AX7's and trying to sell them as a way to achieve that ultimate tone. I looked at some of the tubes and they barely passed the "good" test. I guess these would be your V3 and V4. Anyway, I thought it was sort of comical, you know, "Tone Pack!" The name of the company is called: rz350isthebest.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I guess it had to happen sometime. I was looking at tubes on EBAY and came across a "company" that was selling 4 lots of 12AX7's under the name of "Tone Packs." All they are doing is taking odds and ends 12AX7's and trying to sell them as a way to achieve that ultimate tone. I looked at some of the tubes and they barely passed the "good" test. I guess these would be your V3 and V4. Anyway, I thought it was sort of comical, you know, "Tone Pack!" The name of the company is called: rz350isthebest.



*Stop The Insanity!!!*​


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well this is sort of like the wholesalers that had a bunch of RFT EL34's for sale, but you had to use them in amps under 450V. What sort of manure is that? It's a great tube. It's a fabulous tube. It's a B-Stock tube.

Yeah. Now we have bozo's taking four odd ball tubes and selling them as a tone pack. What if the tone sounds like shittah? "Oh, we don't offer refunds. We thought that you would be happy with these old tubes that we can't sell by themselves, because no one would buy them." I mean some of them are on the verge of being labeled "worn out."

The bottom line is there are people out there trying to find ways to sell old or B-Stock tubes to the audio public. They aren't going to say, "Past their prime," or "Easy on the voltage." They are going to get some sucker to pay good money for plain old crapola. Lucky for you guys that I don't deal in crapola.

WE DON'T NEED CRAPOLA!!!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well this is sort of like the wholesalers that had a bunch of RFT EL34's for sale, but you had to use them in amps under 450V. What sort of manure is that? It's a great tube. It's a fabulous tube. It's a B-Stock tube.
> 
> Yeah. Now we have bozo's taking four odd ball tubes and selling them as a tone pack. What if the tone sounds like shittah? "Oh, we don't offer refunds. We thought that you would be happy with these old tubes that we can't sell by themselves, because no one would buy them." I mean some of them are on the verge of being labeled "worn out."
> 
> The bottom line is there are people out there trying to find ways to sell old or B-Stock tubes to the audio public. They aren't going to say, "Past their prime," or "Easy on the voltage." They are going to get some sucker to pay good money for plain old crapola. Lucky for you guys that I don't deal in crapola.
> 
> WE DON'T NEED CRAPOLA!!!



That just ain't right. Yeah we know why they come with the 450 and under warning. Cheat'n bastids! Alot of people don't though...sad cause those are some nice tubes when they are fully charged.

Make a buck get the heck outa here. That's what the no refund policy amounts to.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> What Josh said is correct and of course there is more about this in the above posts and also throughout this massive thread.
> 
> V1 and V2 is where you want to put NOS tubes in place. These have the biggest effect on tone and gain. V3 and V4 can be almost anything. We have even experimented with high gainers in V3 and V4 and they only make a little difference over regular gain tubes. So if you bought a couple of NOS tubes for V1 and V2, you could use your existing high gainers in V3 and V4. Not a problem.



Might it be most prudent then to get a couple tubes from you Marty rather then catch a bum deal from someone on ebay? How might I go about doing that?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I just wanted to quietly say that this is my 1000th post on the forum and I couldn't be happier posting it here with my good friends. You have all been a pleasure working with and I think we have all learned a hell of a lot about all types of tubes such as NOS and CP. I look forward to a 1000 more posts and as always, I will try my best to help you find your sound.

_Martimus Maximus Manimal _


----------



## LesPaulopolis

...and many more!!!


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I just wanted to quietly say that this is my 1000th post on the forum and I couldn't be happier posting it here with my good friends. You have all been a pleasure working with and I think we have all learned a hell of a lot about all types of tubes such as NOS and CP. I look forward to a 1000 more posts and as always, I will try my best to help you find your sound.
> 
> _Martimus Maximus Manimal _



Righteous times Manimal! Here's to the tone monster that we all try to capture and do our bidding! 

Lets keep this train roll'n boyz...


----------



## solarburn

Here some more Tech Tube feedback by a couple of the users:


Quote:
Originally Posted by... 
In what specific way are they improving? I'm just curious if this is more than a change in microphonics.

- T
After the microphonics dissapear, these tubes seem to open right up for some reason and REALLY take on a life of their own. Very organic, alive, and musical, with a stunning clarity about them. Maybe it's just because you can play them "harder" without fear of them squealing/whistling back at you, or maybe there is some "metamorphosis" happening within the tube itself. (maybe a combination of both) Whatever it is, they sound MUCH better in the second week than they do in the first week.
[/COLOR]


Quote:
Originally Posted by... 
After the microphonics dissapear, these tubes seem to open right up for some reason and REALLY take on a life of their own. Very organic, alive, and musical, with a stunning clarity about them. Maybe it's just because you can play them "harder" without fear of them squealing/whistling back at you, or maybe there is some "metamorphosis" happening within the tube itself. (maybe a combination of both) Whatever it is, they sound MUCH better in the second week than they do in the first week.

Cool to hear! I'm looking forward to when that time comes for mine. Unfortunately, I haven't had the play time with my rigs, as I've been away on vacation (weird inversion to be more enthused about returning to my studio than being on vacation, but in-laws were involved...)

Unfortunately, the one TechTube sample I had the most hours on (the one whose gain is most 12AX7-like) bit the dust yesterday, when, as I was removing the provided silicone damper, I accidentally snapped the evacuation tip off the glass. The instructions that came with the damper warned about this possibility. But even though I thought I was being gentle, it didn't take much to snap the tip. Let this be a warning to others.

Before it died, I gave my most 12AX7-like E813CC a good workout, in V2 of my Carr Slant 6V. It sounded very good, but still had the microphonic problem, even with the damper. This is not a microphonic squeal, but rather like the sound of ocean breakers, from about a quarter-mile distance, audible during sustained notes. Not a pretty thing, and I hope that new advances (or burn-in) help eliminate it.

I did try out the E813CC in the overdrive slot (right side) of my Kingsley Jester, and found it to be acceptibly less-microphonic there. I could definitely hear sound as I tapped the pedal with my foot - more so than with other 12AX7s. But it didn't have that unwanted oceanic microphony gurgling under the notes. Probably because the speaker vibrations weren't carrying as powerfully as they do in a combo amp. I enjoyed playing with the TechTube in my Jester. It has a different tonal character than the 1956 short black-plate Sylvania 12AX7 that I usually use in that position - they both break up on the earlier-than-usual side, but the Sylvania has much more low-frequency content (while retaining excellent clarity, and well-defined treble).

The historically royal lineage, TechTube's truly outstanding service, and high-falutin' aspirations, have all compelled me to compare the E813CC to my very favorite NOS 12AX7s. That is a very high standard of comparison, as I'm pitting them against long-plate '50s Philips (Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, Siemens), black-plate Brimar, and US black-plate (Ken-Rad, Raytheon, Sylvania) as my usual palette of favored 12AX7s. Though the E813CC retains a unique tonal character amongst the pack, so far, they fall a little short in the clarity department, to my ears. I hope to hear better results with a lower-microphonic sample, or after burn-in works its magic. In all fairness, though, it strikes me that, if comparison be made, it should be with current-production tubes. I have not done that yet, and will definitely try to do so, before too long. My feeling is that the E813CC leads the pack of new-production options, with regards to clarity. And I'm hoping to hear it take its place amongst the vintage greats.

I've loaded up my Kingsley Jester pedal with two E813CC, and left it on, for a more extensive burn-in period. I'll report back with changes I hear.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can I go??? I'll pay my own way. The last time I was there in Nashville, I was overwhelmed by the amount of used gear for sale. The pawn shops were loaded with (a s**t load of Peavey gear, go figure). All them hopes, dreams and aspirations gone down the tube and the gear gets sold for a bus ticket home. Tisk, tisk!
> 
> On the other hand, Nashville (and especially Memphis) has seen the ole crime rate go through the roof. Felony crime is way up. Did I say muggings?
> 
> On a better note, please feel free to post about your AT7 findings. I am going to be helping LesPaulopolis with his 900. It has a lot of high end I want to smooth out. I'm thinking a medium gain BP in V1 with a high gain BP in V2. This should give a more pronounced, tighter midrange and a smooth top end. However, maybe an AT7 in V3 would fortify this? Just a thought.
> 
> Keep me posted, as I'm sure this place will be buzzing soon with new found information.



Nashville was great. I splurged at GC and bought a Planet Waves string winder with a string cutter built-in. The kids were with me, so I couldn't go into my favorite head shop. I bought a couple bottles of wine and some pipe tobacco and that ended my shopping. 

I've been catching up on the V3 and V4 postings I've missed. 
This weekend, I swapped out my Raytheon AT7 in V3 for an Electro-Harmonix AT7 and the tone suffered noticeably, so back in goes the Raytheon.

I also tried several AX7's in V4, and the current production tubes couldn't hang with the old stuff. I tried a Tung-Sol, a Sovtek 12AX7WA, a Groove Tubes Gold Series 12AX7R, and none of them sounded even close to the smoothness of the old RFT. Marty, I know you're saying to use CP in V3 & V4, but I'm hearing a noticeable difference between CP and NOS.

So, what I have happening right now is the RCA side-getter 23-24 in V1, a RFT 7025A at 39-40 in V2, the Raytheon AT7 in V3, and my other RFT 7025A 39-39 in V4. I'm really happy with this setup. I think I'm through messing with the preamp for awhile. I might get on ebay and try to find replacements for the tubes I'm running now in case one goes bad.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> ​
> V3 & V4 Respectively:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Well... I got so far as cleaning the tube sockets and throwing the "GE Twins" in slots 3 & 4, but alas... As soon as I reached for the power switch... Life got busy and took over again. So... I haven't had a chance to play 'em yet. I'm hoping for a couple of hours tonight or tomorrow (maybe Sunday) to give them a good work out. I'll keep ya posted as soon as there is something to report!



Well... I had about 15 minutes w/ the above beauties... Then once again!!! LIFE GOT IN THE WAY!!!

I swear I am gonna go postal if I don't just once this month get at least 30 minutes of time on my guitar before getting pulled away to other "more important" things. 

Anyhoo... Here's the run down from my exceptionally brief low volume trial run w/ the GE twins...

CP is fine in V3 & V4. No complaints what-so-ever. But ANOS _IS _BETTER! (boy... I never thought I'd use those words in a sentence ) I can't wait to crank these up and really have a go at them. But at low (bedroom level) volumes these are great. The clarity was definitely improved over the the JJ's that were occupying those spaces. What I liked best was that in these positions they really didn't alter my beloved tone, rather they improved the clarity and "smoothness" of the overall sound. Definitely two thumbs up.  

I look forward to throwing those BP's in next. I have the utmost confidence that they will be the even bigger winners. Anyhoo... I'll let ya know when I have some actual results beyond a 15-20 min low volume test run.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I just wanted to quietly say that this is my 1000th post on the forum and I couldn't be happier posting it here with my good friends. You have all been a pleasure working with and I think we have all learned a hell of a lot about all types of tubes such as NOS and CP. I look forward to a 1000 more posts and as always, I will try my best to help you find your sound.
> _Martimus Maximus Manimal _


Rock on Manimal! Your tube know-how is the Beez kneez!



RiverRatt said:


> Nashville was great. I splurged at GC and bought a Planet Waves string winder with a string cutter built-in. The kids were with me, so I couldn't go into my favorite head shop. I bought a couple bottles of wine and some pipe tobacco and that ended my shopping...



I was in Nashville in January (winter before last). We were gonna go to the Gibson store and get a tour as they built guitars... As luck would have it the factory was closed the day we went. but I still had fun at the Gibson store. 

And we ate catfish and pickle chips (breaded deep fried dill pickle slices) at Cock Of The Walk. Mmm... Soooooooo Goooood!



pal670 said:


> Hi guys, I have an AVT150 combo, and was wondering how to access the pre-amp tube, I want to change it for a gold pin Tung Sol I recently acquired to see the tonal difference.
> Also what tube would you recommend that I try?



Hey PAL. How's it goin'? I am just curious how things went with your AVT? I have played through AVT's, but never owned one, so am curious if the tung-sol made a strong difference in your tone? I have heard that the single tube is more of a way to add some warmth than really change the tone in those... So I am curious if this is true and what you've found as you've tried different tubes. Please... Keep us posted!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I know you're saying to use CP in V3 & V4, but I'm hearing a noticeable difference between CP and NOS.



Well just as certain NOS tubes have different tonal characteristics, the same holds true for CP. I don't even consider a Sovtek WA to be a tube. They are the worst and most are highly microphonic. JJ's gold pin or not are dark, like they took a filter to the high end. 

Now what I said was you could "get by" with CP. I went on to say that I use NOS or ANOS in all of my amps. Why use a Mullard RI when I can put a tasty Sylvania in V3 and V4? My main reason for making this comment was monetary. I feel that if you put NOS/ANOS in V1 and V2, you can get by with CP tubes in V3 and V4 (and I was thinking about a Mullard RI in V3 and a Tung-Sol in V4). Is there room for improvement? Yes. Would it be best to run all slots with NOS/ANOS tubes? Yes.

So I will restate what I said and say, "If you can't afford NOS/ANOS in all four slots, take care of V1 and V2 first and you can get by with CP in V3 and V4, but try and stay away from JJ's. At some other time, you can get some NOS/ANOS tubes for V3 and V4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh: Sorry that the old tick-tock got in the way of your testing. I'm looking at Mr. Ratt's lineup and as I have already told him, he is running the stoutest V2 of us all. The other thing is that he is running a super high gain in the PI slot. 

Joe and I did a little testing in the V3 and V4 slots and we both agreed that "gain" played a little role in overall sound, but nothing like V1 and V2. With Ratt running the RFT in V4, you should be able to run the stout GE in V4 if that is where it does the most magic. I'm really impressed by the high gain tubes that you can use in V4. It's like it automatically trims them down. I mean you can put a 12AT7 in V4 and then a high gain AX7 and you might not be able to tell a lot in the way the amp sounds.

Anyway, I hope you can get an hour in or so. Looking forward to hearing what you find out, especially messing with the BP's.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Here's the run down from my exceptionally brief low volume trial run w/ the GE twins...
> 
> CP is fine in V3 & V4. No complaints what-so-ever. But ANOS _IS _BETTER! (boy... I never thought I'd use those words in a sentence ) I can't wait to crank these up and really have a go at them. But *at low (bedroom level) volumes* these are great. The *clarity was definitely improved over the the JJ's* that were occupying those spaces. What I liked best was that in these positions they really didn't alter my beloved tone, rather they improved the clarity and "smoothness" of the overall sound...





MartyStrat54 said:


> ... I feel that if you put NOS/ANOS in V1 and V2, you can get by with CP tubes in V3 and V4 (and I was thinking about a Mullard RI in V3 and a Tung-Sol in V4). Is there room for improvement? Yes. Would it be best to run all slots with NOS/ANOS tubes? Yes.
> 
> So I will restate what I said and say, "If you can't afford NOS/ANOS in all four slots, take care of V1 and V2 first and you can get by with CP in V3 and V4, but *try and stay away from JJ's. At some other time, you can get some NOS/ANOS tubes for V3 and V4*.



That's why I am curious to see how it sounds w/ the GE twins in V3 & V4 when the amp is cranked up more... While at low volume the sound tone-wise seems the same, but w/ more clarity, I am wondering if some of that "improved clarity" will actually translate into more top end when I get the volume turned up? Know what ah mean Vern?
______________________________________________________

PS. I did go w/ the higher gain in V4... Thinking perhaps this might provide a somewhat wider gate in the tonal spectrum... I might be full of crap, but I think perhaps somewhat higher gain here provides a few more colors in the rainbow...


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - V3 & V4*



joshuaaewallen said:


> PS. I did go w/ the higher gain in V4... Thinking perhaps this might provide a somewhat wider gate in the tonal spectrum... I might be full of crap, but I think perhaps somewhat higher gain here provides a few more colors in the rainbow...



Ahh, one of my favorite expression, "A somewhat wider gate in the tonal spectrum." Yes. Yes. I do believe that a higher gain tube in V4 has distinct advantages, especially at very loud volumes. I do not think there is any restrictions in "the window of the gate" and the signal is balls to the wall. At lower volumes you can put an AT7 in there and who would know? However, since none of us rarely "dime" our amps, it is difficult to make an exact assumption on this. Take an AT7 at quarter, half, three-quarter and dime. How does it sound? High gain AX7, same test, how does it sound? The circuitry of these Marshall amps change at high volume. You have bigger preamp signals, more juice is being demanded from the power transformer, the power tubes are producing peak power. The amp jumps from a stable output with less than 1% THD (total harmonic distortion) to a "dimed" amp putting out 120 watts with close to 10% THD. That THD is aka 'Square Wave." This is the sort of signal that can eat up a 4 by 12 cab with 25 watt speakers.

So all this tension is going on in the amp and guess what? We all know the amps sound better the louder we turn them up. As the volume level goes up, it can actually change the tone of the preamp and power tubes. Sure. More harmonics start to happen. So if you are happy with V1 and V2 at under 4 on the volume. Imagine what they will sound like at 8?

The preamp tubes have to work inside the window to the gate that controls the tonal spectrum. Tube characteristics are all based on curve charts. At some point the tube flattens out and compresses. Most AX7's have a ruler flat frequency response from 10Hz (can't hear it) to over 50KHz (can't hear it). In a high gain amp V1 "cranked" puts the mustard to V2 and all of these really cool harmonics start to happen. If the power tubes are cranked they add to these harmonics. I don't think I will ever turn my amp up to 10 and find out if Jim Marshall was telling the truth about 120 watts of output. I don't think I could physically handle that unless I had earplugs and that would be defeating the "test."

The bottom line is our beautiful 12AX7's may sound good at lower volumes, but just think what they would sound like getting spanked?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well just as certain NOS tubes have different tonal characteristics, the same holds true for CP. I don't even consider a Sovtek WA to be a tube. They are the worst and most are highly microphonic. JJ's gold pin or not are dark, like they took a filter to the high end.
> 
> Now what I said was you could "get by" with CP. I went on to say that I use NOS or ANOS in all of my amps. Why use a Mullard RI when I can put a tasty Sylvania in V3 and V4? My main reason for making this comment was monetary. I feel that if you put NOS/ANOS in V1 and V2, you can get by with CP tubes in V3 and V4 (and I was thinking about a Mullard RI in V3 and a Tung-Sol in V4). Is there room for improvement? Yes. Would it be best to run all slots with NOS/ANOS tubes? Yes.
> 
> So I will restate what I said and say, "If you can't afford NOS/ANOS in all four slots, take care of V1 and V2 first and you can get by with CP in V3 and V4, but try and stay away from JJ's. At some other time, you can get some NOS/ANOS tubes for V3 and V4.



Hahahahaha! I busted on that one. I share the same opine.

I put other power tubes in and didn't have the prob I was having with the Tung Sol Marty. I wonder why they come in lower than the bias I set them at. I gave em' a good warm up. I keep everything connected while playing so I can get a solid adjustment when it has been played for a few minutes. They aren't drifting from each other at least. For example I set them at 43. When I turn it back on later, get it warmed up good by playing, they come in at 40.

No red plating which is a good thing. I have to say the Ruby's did not sound as warm as the Tung Sol, Winged C or the RFT's. They are a bit congested compared to the rest and I hadn't noticed that before. I've never done this many power tube changes right after each other either. Probably be a good power tube for metal amps as it tight sounding. 

Ok I'll get back into the preamp section. I think for shits and giggles I'll put an RFT in the PI. It works great in the PI of the NT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just happened to go to Marshall USA website and I clicked on tubes. Holy Shittah! They are expensive. Just relabeled Russian tubes (and maybe Chinese). Check out the three pack of 12AX7A's.

http://www.marshallampsusa.com/marshall/items.asp?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just happened to go to Marshall USA website and I clicked on tubes. Holy Shittah! They are expensive. Just relabeled Russian tubes (and maybe Chinese). Check out the three pack of 12AX7A's.
> 
> Marshall USA Online Store - Items Page



Those prices just motivate me to buy more NOS.


----------



## Landshark

So until I get some cash flow to get some NOS, I did a little experiment with my TSL. Of course from my signature you can see I have JJ's all across the board and the v4 position is high gain but ballanced. I thought to myself... what the heck... let's put the balanced one in V1 and see what difference it makes. 

Still dark (I want some NOS bad), but a little bit better with the balanced ecc83 in V1. The tone seemed to have more clarity and definition, which was one of my main complaints about my tone and was less thrashy. Gotta get those JJ's out soon!

P.S. It's getting to where I don't even want to play it without at least replacing V1 and V2.

Edit: The ballanced ecc83 didn't have as high of a gain rating as the others and I think that attributed to the improved sounds I heard.


----------



## Landshark

Saw this on ebay and thought about you guys... Sound like a decent buy?

NOS RFT ECC81/12AT7 tubes from former East Germany, NEW - eBay (item 350213557839 end time Aug-13-09 07:30:38 PDT)


----------



## Landshark

And I saw these too.

5 RCA 12AX7 VINTAGE TUBES FOR FENDER AMP PREAMP 7025 - eBay (item 370238432092 end time Aug-07-09 17:32:56 PDT)


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## solarburn

Landshark said:


> Saw this on ebay and thought about you guys... Sound like a decent buy?
> 
> NOS RFT ECC81/12AT7 tubes from former East Germany, NEW - eBay (item 350213557839 end time Aug-13-09 07:30:38 PDT)



This is what I like but only 1. I find they make the Marshall too dark when using more than 1. I like AT7's but I would make some nice 12AX7's a priority instead if it was me setting my amp up.

Brand new, MINT NOS Late 1960s RFT ECC83 12AX7 VEB Rhrenwerke Anna Seghers Neuhaus Prod Tubes with Halo Getter. Made in E. Germany. These are in the top 2-3 desirable tubes for Guitar tone, and also work fine in Audio gear.


----------



## solarburn

I didn't like an RFT in the PI on mine. I put my trustee LPS back in which always gives a nice feel or response overall. I did put the AT7 BP in V3 again and am giving it another round. I can't fault it yet but that position is a hard one to read. To me the PI is easier to distinguish changes with my ears.

So. V1 7025 lower gain seems to get me most of what I want. Here are what I like in V2:

RFT 12AX7
JP12AX7WA
Raytheon BP 12AX7(Fo' Sho')
7025(High Gain)
Mullard NOS
RCA 12AX7A

Didn't group these in order of what I like best. I was listing them as I thought about what I had. 

I think the PI has more impact on overall tone than V3. Used a couple of my NP tubes in the PI and liked em'(LPS & Tung Sol). I liked my NOS in the PI as well except the RFT which fattened things up more than I wanted. I think a tube that has good lows, mids and highs in the PI would be what I would shoot for. A tube with balanced amounts of those 3 frequencies. It would compliment the other tube's character before it IMO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> Saw this on ebay and thought about you guys... Sound like a decent buy?
> 
> NOS RFT ECC81/12AT7 tubes from former East Germany, NEW - eBay (item 350213557839 end time Aug-13-09 07:30:38 PDT)



Yes, like Joe said, getting a 12AT7 is something you could do after you got some 12AX7's for you amp. The 12AT7 isn't going to do much to you amp, especially with JJ's in it.

How long would it take you to save 55 to 60 dollars? That's what you need to do. Then I can help you out.

PS-The RCA (for Fender) EBAY listing I had looked at. However, the tubes were a little on the worn side. They went for $33 and I guess that was a good price for those sort of tubes. You want a medium gain and a high gain tube for V1 and V2.


----------



## RiverRatt

Landshark said:


> Saw this on ebay and thought about you guys... Sound like a decent buy?
> 
> NOS RFT ECC81/12AT7 tubes from former East Germany, NEW - eBay (item 350213557839 end time Aug-13-09 07:30:38 PDT)



I might pick up one to experiment with, although I haven't found an AT7 that I like more than my trusty old Raytheon (yet...).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was in error saying the auction for the five 12AX7's was over. It had a current bid of $33 and it is still going on.

Hey, what would happen if you put four 12AT7's in your amp? Let's go crazy on 12AT7's why don't we. I got more than I know what to do with. 12AU7's too. 

I put four 12AU7's in my TSL and I'm here to tell you it was the cleanest, smoothest sound I'd ever heard. Wouldn't get too loud, but clean and smooth.


----------



## RiverRatt

C'mon, man. 12AT7's are so yesterday. The new thing is 12BZ7's in all four spots. I'm hoping to achieve a tone something like this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSAExHBrfwU]YouTube - Tesla Guitar[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> C'mon, man. 12AT7's are so yesterday. The new thing is 12BZ7's in all four spots. I'm hoping to achieve a tone something like this:
> 
> YouTube - Tesla Guitar



That was cool!


----------



## MartyStrat54

It doesn't take much to amuse you does it JOE?

Hey, I guess everyone on the forum is happy with their tubes. I decided about five days ago to run an ad in the member's classified. I thought that I could sell some of my tubes. (I have a whole bunch!) Remember how I was afraid that I would get a lot of responses that would just be a waste of my time? How about "no" responses. Wow! That's a shocker!

Guess that soft amp market means a soft tube market. It makes me wonder how many NOS tubes are actually being sold and if their business is down due to the economy? 

I'm going to run it for a few more days and then take it down.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It doesn't take much to amuse you does it JOE?
> 
> Hey, I guess everyone on the forum is happy with their tubes. I decided about five days ago to run an ad in the member's classified. I thought that I could sell some of my tubes. (I have a whole bunch!) Remember how I was afraid that I would get a lot of responses that would just be a waste of my time? How about "no" responses. Wow! That's a shocker!
> 
> Guess that soft amp market means a soft tube market. It makes me wonder how many NOS tubes are actually being sold and if their business is down due to the economy?
> 
> I'm going to run it for a few more days and then take it down.



Sad but true...

Is there even action for tubes on the member's list here? Really the only talk of NOS tubes here on the Marshall forum I've seen is mostly this thread. On other forums like TGP or HCAF I run into quite a bit more guys using them and talking about it. Today I had a guy PM me and offer to sell me some RFT 12AX7's just because the RFT was the thread topic. Of course I don't need any RFT's. Who knows, you may get some bites yet...

I put the RFT EL34's back in and biased em' up to 75%. Didn't sound much different but my ears are mashed potatoes by now with all the roll'n and crank'n. I put the medium gain BP in V3 and have my trusty RCA in the PI. You know, the RCA you first gave me. That tube sounds good wherever I place it. Still one of my fav's. Thought I'd play with the Mullard you sent me in V2. It sounds great too. 

I think the first Raytheon BP you sent me is my favorite in V2 but the others are no slouch's by any means. I put the GE in V2 and it sounds great. I have a buffet of tubes that all work well in the Marshall. No bad ones. Its just hard to pick a flavor sometimes.

That's what I call a Martimus Maximus Tone pack. When they're all so good you can't pick which ones to use. After this thread you should be able to sell some damn sardines. Guess we all are just crazy...


----------



## MartyStrat54

THANKS FOR THE SALE'S PITCH!


----------



## Landshark

I know Marty's gonna flip when he sees the rest of this post.

I had the back of my TSL open from my experiment. My 2 year old asked me for a drink (she's a sweetie). I come back from getting her a cup and she's touching all of my tubes!!!:eek2::eek2::eek2:

With the thought in mind that I would NEVER again leave the back of that thing open, she unknowing ly pointed something out to me... the lettering on one of the power tubes was different. When I got these tubes the lettering on them was all bright red. The (from left to right) first, second, and third ones were a burgundy color, and the one farthest right was bright red still...

Now here's where Marty will have an aneurysm... I got curious and took the tubes out and took the chasis out FOR A LOOK (I know it's suicide to think about touching anything so I didn't, because I was the only one home with my daughter, and I didn't want to die!). As I pull the chassis out, there is this little white piece that, as I looked I saw where it was supposed to be on the board directly under the unused power tube, had come unsoldered. I realized that the amp could have suffered some serious damage running just three power tubes (it must have come undone recently because I had just gotten it fixed with a grounding problem and rebiased the tubes) and I quickly put the chasis back into the box and ran to the repairman for a good overlook. 

He put the part back in and checked everything out to make sure it was alright, rebiased the power tubes which wasnt very far off from where they wer supposed to be. He said that the power tubes would be fine even though, to me, they look a little burnt up except the one. It fixed the thrashy tone problem I had though.

Fun little story with anger, danger, excitment... and yes, after the head was fixed, there was even laughter and uncontrollable dancing in the privacy of my own home.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> How long would it take you to save 55 to 60 dollars? That's what you need to do. Then I can help you out.



Not long... that 2 gallon bucket of change is full and I'm thinking it's time for a trip to the change exchange at Kroger.

I'm gonna see about going tomorrow during the day.


----------



## solarburn

Landshark said:


> I know Marty's gonna flip when he sees the rest of this post.
> 
> I had the back of my TSL open from my experiment. My 2 year old asked me for a drink (she's a sweetie). I come back from getting her a cup and she's touching all of my tubes!!!:eek2::eek2::eek2:
> 
> With the thought in mind that I would NEVER again leave the back of that thing open, she unknowing ly pointed something out to me... the lettering on one of the power tubes was different. When I got these tubes the lettering on them was all bright red. The (from left to right) first, second, and third ones were a burgundy color, and the one farthest right was bright red still...
> 
> Now here's where Marty will have an aneurysm... I got curious and took the tubes out and took the chasis out FOR A LOOK (I know it's suicide to think about touching anything so I didn't, because I was the only one home with my daughter, and I didn't want to die!). As I pull the chassis out, there is this little white piece that, as I looked I saw where it was supposed to be on the board directly under the unused power tube, had come unsoldered. I realized that the amp could have suffered some serious damage running just three power tubes (it must have come undone recently because I had just gotten it fixed with a grounding problem and rebiased the tubes) and I quickly put the chasis back into the box and ran to the repairman for a good overlook.
> 
> He put the part back in and checked everything out to make sure it was alright, rebiased the power tubes which wasnt very far off from where they wer supposed to be. He said that the power tubes would be fine even though, to me, they look a little burnt up except the one. It fixed the thrashy tone problem I had though.
> 
> Fun little story with anger, danger, excitment... and yes, after the head was fixed, there was even laughter and uncontrollable dancing in the privacy of my own home.



It sounds better now does it?

Good job in noticing the label difference. That was quite a discovery. Glad it all worked out.

On a side note, how do you like the 34L's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> Not long... that 2 gallon bucket of change is full and I'm thinking it's time for a trip to the change exchange at Kroger.
> 
> I'm gonna see about going tomorrow during the day.



If the repairs (and I'm glad everything went well) cleared up your sound. Are you happy with what you have, or are you still wanting to go with some NOS tubes in V1 and V2?

It's your money. I just want to make sure that you spend it in the best way possible.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey I've been spending a little time on TGP. Man those guys get into bitter arguments about tubes. NOS vs CP. JJ vs Tung-Sol. I felt good when I realized that they were already using the "new" term that I had started using...ANOS, Almost New Old Stock. I just decided to start using it, because it made sense and lo and behold, it was already being used. Man that took a load off of me. I thought that I had come up with something new. ANOS. Like I fell off the back of the truck and my ANOS hurts real bad. Something like that.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey I've been spending a little time on TGP. Man those guys get into bitter arguments about tubes. NOS vs CP. JJ vs Tung-Sol. I felt good when I realized that they were already using the "new" term that I had started using...ANOS, Almost New Old Stock. I just decided to start using it, because it made sense and lo and behold, it was already being used. Man that took a load off of me. I thought that I had come up with something new. ANOS. Like I fell off the back of the truck and my ANOS hurts real bad. Something like that.




I had seen this term on a Tube Brokers website and I didn't know what it meant until you spelled it out one day awhile ago. 

Here:

http://www.kcanostubes.com/categories/2/1/12AX7-12AX7A-ECC83-7025-CV4004.htm


----------



## MartyStrat54

Holy Shittah!!! Man, I need to raise my prices!!! $55 for ANOS RCA 7025. Somebody did somebody a big favor. Holy cow! Every time I go to KCA I almost have a coronary. I could make some real good money selling my RCA 7025's for $55. 

Well, I've just :cool2:a fat one with Slash and I feel better now. I'm afraid to look at NEW prices. Wow! I wonder what those Amperex EL84's will bring? I think I'll keep them and sell the quad of Telefunkens. I should get $250 for them. We'll see. I'm afraid I'll get me a Night Train and I'll want to spank it hard with some Tele's or Holland's finest.

Thanks Slash!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Holy Shittah!!! Man, I need to raise my prices!!! $55 for ANOS RCA 7025. Somebody did somebody a big favor. Holy cow! Every time I go to KCA I almost have a coronary. I could make some real good money selling my RCA 7025's for $55.
> 
> Well, I've just :cool2:a fat one with Slash and I feel better now. I'm afraid to look at NEW prices. Wow! I wonder what those Amperex EL84's will bring? I think I'll keep them and sell the quad of Telefunkens. I should get $250 for them. We'll see. I'm afraid I'll get me a Night Train and I'll want to spank it hard with some Tele's or Holland's finest.
> 
> Thanks Slash!



Funny you should mention the NT. I have it plugged into my GB loaded 412 right now and it smokes baby! I'm so glad I got that amp now. I got the Solarburn Tone Pack in it and it rips and chimes! Thanks to my Mentor MM.

If you ever do get one try it on a 412. It will squeeze the most out of that lil' lunch box. I'm playing it with my strat alot now. It is loud with a 412.

For sure you are offering the best deals on the net hehe. I haven't bought any on that site. Too rich for my blood.


----------



## Landshark

solarburnDSL50 said:


> It sounds better now does it?
> 
> Good job in noticing the label difference. That was quite a discovery. Glad it all worked out.
> 
> On a side note, how do you like the 34L's?



I didn't play long enough with the old tubes in it to really get a feel for a regular 34. But from what I could notice, it was just more gain oriented... almost too compressed with my current settings (lead channel - deep switch pushed, presence 10, bass 7.5, mids 4,treble 7, tone shift pushed, gain around 5, volume around five, crunch channel - never really used). I recently started messing with my settings to be sure I could get the best sounds out as possible and found a way to get the same tone without all the compression (deep still pushed, presence still 10, bass 6.5 or 7, mids 7.5, treble 8, tone shift out, gain around 7, volume at 5, Crunch channel - very similar without the bass pushed, very crunchy tone  ).



MartyStrat54 said:


> If the repairs (and I'm glad everything went well) cleared up your sound. Are you happy with what you have, or are you still wanting to go with some NOS tubes in V1 and V2?
> 
> It's your money. I just want to make sure that you spend it in the best way possible.



And your question goes along with the final few statements I was going to leave Joe with... this helped me achieve the same tone but with less compression and sound more organic. It's still really dark and I am still looking forward to hear what NOS in V1 and V2 sounds like.


----------



## solarburn

Landshark said:


> I didn't play long enough with the old tubes in it to really get a feel for a regular 34. But from what I could notice, it was just more gain oriented... almost too compressed with my current settings (lead channel - deep switch pushed, presence 10, bass 7.5, mids 4,treble 7, tone shift pushed, gain around 5, volume around five, crunch channel - never really used). I recently started messing with my settings to be sure I could get the best sounds out as possible and found a way to get the same tone without all the compression (deep still pushed, presence still 10, bass 6.5 or 7, mids 7.5, treble 8, tone shift out, gain around 7, volume at 5, Crunch channel - very similar without the bass pushed, very crunchy tone  ).
> 
> 
> 
> And your question goes along with the final few statements I was going to leave Joe with... this helped me achieve the same tone but with less compression and sound more organic. It's still really dark and I am still looking forward to hear what NOS in V1 and V2 sounds like.



Those JJ pres are the culprit. From what I hear the 34L's have healthy amount of lowend too. I got the high gain kit from eurotubes with the KT77's and those JJ pres dulled my tone up. Changing to other preamp tubes made a significant change for the better. My EQ adjustments started working again meaning I had more balanced(frequency wise)preamp tubes in there. I had way more variations in tone too. I think their character are just a bit too strong especially 4 at once.

Like I say I know guys who really like them especially in bright amps. I have a bright amp and I still didn't like what I got from them. It doesn't matter to me. I put in what I like. Try a couple from Marty and you may be real glad you did.

Winged C EL34's are my favorite Current Production power tubes. Nice and open sounding. NOS power tubes are gonna cost ya if you ever go that far.


----------



## Landshark

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those JJ pres are the culprit. From what I hear the 34L's have healthy amount of lowend too. I got the high gain kit from eurotubes with the KT77's and those JJ pres dulled my tone up. Changing to other preamp tubes made a significant change for the better. My EQ adjustments started working again meaning I had more balanced(frequency wise)preamp tubes in there. I had way more variations in tone too. I think their character are just a bit too strong especially 4 at once.
> 
> Like I say I know guys who really like them especially in bright amps. I have a bright amp and I still didn't like what I got from them. It doesn't matter to me. I put in what I like. Try a couple from Marty and you may be real glad you did.
> 
> Winged C EL34's are my favorite Current Production power tubes. Nice and open sounding. NOS power tubes are gonna cost ya if you ever go that far.




Yea my change bucket came up a little short. I still got 40 bucks out of it but not quite enought to do NOS yet. Gimme a week and I'll be ready for them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> ​
> V3 & V4 Respectively:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> Well... I got so far as cleaning the tube sockets and throwing the "GE Twins" in slots 3 & 4, but alas... As soon as I reached for the power switch... Life got busy and took over again. So... I haven't had a chance to play 'em yet. I'm hoping for a couple of hours tonight or tomorrow (maybe Sunday) to give them a good work out. I'll keep ya posted as soon as there is something to report!





joshuaaewallen said:


> That's why I am curious to see how it sounds w/ the GE twins in V3 & V4 when the amp is cranked up more... While at low volume the sound tone-wise seems the same, but w/ more clarity, I am wondering if some of that "improved clarity" will actually translate into more top end when I get the volume turned up? Know what ah mean Vern?...



Suspicions confirmed. Holy crap this thing is sooooooo much more clear and lively w/ the GE Twins instead of the JJ's. Whew!



Landshark said:


> I know Marty's gonna flip when he sees the rest of this post.
> 
> I had the back of my TSL open from my experiment. My 2 year old asked me for a drink (she's a sweetie). I come back from getting her a cup and she's touching all of my tubes!!!:eek2::eek2:
> 
> With the thought in mind that I would NEVER again leave the back of that thing open, she unknowingly pointed something out to me... the lettering on one of the power tubes was different. When I got these tubes the lettering on them was all bright red. The (from left to right) first, second, and third ones were a burgundy color, and the one farthest right was bright red still...
> 
> Now here's where Marty will have an aneurysm... I got curious and took the tubes out and took the chasis out FOR A LOOK (I know it's suicide to think about touching anything so I didn't, because I was the only one home with my daughter, and I didn't want to die!). As I pull the chassis out, there is this little white piece that, as I looked I saw where it was supposed to be on the board directly under the unused power tube, had come unsoldered. I realized that the amp could have suffered some serious damage running just three power tubes (it must have come undone recently because I had just gotten it fixed with a grounding problem and rebiased the tubes) and I quickly put the chasis back into the box and ran to the repairman for a good overlook.
> 
> He put the part back in and checked everything out to make sure it was alright, rebiased the power tubes which wasnt very far off from where they wer supposed to be. He said that the power tubes would be fine even though, to me, they look a little burnt up except the one. It fixed the thrashy tone problem I had though.
> 
> Fun little story with anger, danger, excitment... and yes, after the head was fixed, there was even laughter and uncontrollable dancing in the privacy of my own home.



Mate... I am just glad no one got electrocuted. And it's just a bonus to have stumbled onto the problem and surviving to tell about it. I guess just like my wife is always sayin'... "Keep Yer Parts Covered!"



MartyStrat54 said:


> Holy Shittah!!! Man, I need to raise my prices!!! $55 for ANOS RCA 7025. Somebody did somebody a big favor. Holy cow! Every time I go to KCA I almost have a coronary. I could make some real good money selling my RCA 7025's for $55.
> 
> Well, I've just :cool2:a fat one with Slash and I feel better now. I'm afraid to look at NEW prices. Wow! I wonder what those Amperex EL84's will bring? I think I'll keep them and sell the quad of Telefunkens. I should get $250 for them. We'll see. I'm afraid I'll get me a Night Train and I'll want to spank it hard with some Tele's or Holland's finest.
> 
> Thanks Slash!



Please don't follow the example set by those rip-off artists Big M. You are the best and last resort for us workin' folk () who just don't have the $$$ for those crazy prices... And on top of that... Your a pretty nice bloke as well!  And to quote Princess Leah, "Help me Obiwan Kenobi. Your my only hope..."



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those JJ pres are the culprit. From what I hear the 34L's have healthy amount of lowend too. I got the high gain kit from eurotubes with the KT77's and those JJ pres dulled my tone up. Changing to other preamp tubes made a significant change for the better. My EQ adjustments started working again meaning I had more balanced(frequency wise)preamp tubes in there. I had way more variations in tone too. I think their character are just a bit too strong especially 4 at once.
> 
> Like I say I know guys who really like them especially in bright amps. I have a bright amp and I still didn't like what I got from them. It doesn't matter to me. I put in what I like. Try a couple from Marty and you may be real glad you did.
> 
> Winged C EL34's are my favorite Current Production power tubes. Nice and open sounding. NOS power tubes are gonna cost ya if you ever go that far.



I actually really like the EL34L's. That's what I'm running in mine and bottom end is no problem at all. The Svetlana's that came w/ the amp were ok (I guess). I liked my cleans, but I always ran it w/ the deep switch on. Since I put the EL34L's in the amp sounds way less thin, more full and rich, and I have no worries about bottom end, in fact, I seldom even use the deep switch at all any more. It's just that much better. Maybe next time around I'll try the winged C's and see how they sound...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Suspicions confirmed. Holy crap this thing is sooooooo much more clear and lively w/ the GE Twins instead of the JJ's. Whew!
> 
> 
> 
> Mate... I am just glad no one got electrocuted. And it's just a bonus to have stumbled onto the problem and surviving to tell about it. I guess just like my wife is always sayin'... "Keep Yer Parts Covered!"
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't follow the example set by those rip-off artists Big M. You are the best and last resort for us workin' folk () who just don't have the $$$ for those crazy prices... And on top of that... Your a pretty nice bloke as well!  And to quote Princess Leah, "Help me Obiwan Kenobi. Your my only hope..."
> 
> 
> 
> I actually really like the EL34L's. That's what I'm running in mine and bottom end is no problem at all. The Svetlana's that came w/ the amp were ok (I guess). I liked my cleans, but I always ran it w/ the deep switch on. Since I put the EL34L's in the amp sounds way less thin, more full and rich, and I have no worries about bottom end, in fact, I seldom even use the deep switch at all any more. It's just that much better. Maybe next time around I'll try the winged C's and see how they sound...



I don't like Svetlana's much. Too middy and lowend was just not available. Dry sounding too. I think sometime I'd like to try the 34L's. I've always heard the same thing about them. Great lowend and sound good in a Marshall. Sooner or later I will get a pair. 

What I like about the Winged C's Josh is they are open sounding and balanced. Good lowend, mids are nice and the highs aren't harsh. They mix well with a balanced preamp section too. They are great for any genre.

After roll'n the C's in my amp I noticed my Tung Sols were tighter in comparison and the Ruby's became way too tight and a bit stiff. At least the Tung Sols are warm and fat, just a bit tighter or compressed. They're still a good sounding power tube.

The RFT's are warm and fat. Blues and rock baby. Great NOS that Marty gave me a hell of a deal on. Again its hard to pick what I want in the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got off my butt because I had to do a little tube testing. I'm going to move some 6BQ5/EL84's. Out of curiosity, I opened one of the boxes with the Amperex EL84. I tell you, I just don't notice things like I used to, or I forget. These Amperex are a matched quad made on 02-1952!!!
OMG! These are old and they look brand new. The tubes are labeled "Packard Bell," but they still say, "Made by Amperex." Also, the standard, "Made in Holland" at the top of the tube. However, these tubes are so old that Amperex put their old trademark on the tubes. It is like an orbiting atom. Again, a very old trademark. 

I hate to say it, but these tubes deserve a top notched hi fi amp. There to nice to go into a guitar. I did try them once and they were creamy smooth. Nice blend of low end and a real sweet top. I only had them in my 401 for about two weeks and then I put Sylvania Black Plates in. Of course this gave thicker mid's and and airy top. Still a great set of tubes. The other 401 has RCA NIB/NOS Gray Plates and at $40 a piece they better sound good.

If I new how to do half the stuff that Josh knows how to do on this forum, I'd be editing, laying pic's down and smokin' with Slash all the time. Damn younger generation...born with a laptop.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got a s**t load of 6BQ5's listed on EBAY. Thought I'd get rid of some of them BP's and GP's I had sitting around. I took some pic's of the Amperex tubes and I hope they are halfway decent. Let me see if I remember how to do this?





And here is a slightly different angle.






Well, now I will see what I just did when I hit the "Submit Reply" button.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! That's some crappy pictures. I thought they would come out better than that. Anyway, you can see the old Amperex "Atomic" trademark and just under that is the, "Made by Amperex." Most relabeled tubes only carried the "buyer's" name and the real manufacturer would use different methods to "leave their mark" on the tube. RCA has the "Stop Sign" logo with the part number etched inside of the octagon. Raytheon used a heavy etching on the part number. Sylvania used "dot matrix" and USA. GE would have their codes all printed in white on the tube. Later, tube manufacturer's basically said, "If you want to buy our tube, our name goes on it." Well that lasted until about 1963 or so when relabeled tubes were back to having just the buyer's name on them. You have to be a private eye to figure out who made some of the tubes out there. (Example: Tung-Sol used the "octagon" for quite some time until big RCA got them to stop. Some old tubes, you don't know if it's a Tung-Sol or an RCA.

Sorry for the shitty pictures. I'll have to get my tripod out and some good lighting. These digital camera's sometimes have too much flash.


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## solarburn

I put my glasses on to see those pics better and it was still blurry...

I like the Atomic logo(trademark)on the Amperex. Hope ya make some money on the bunch you put up. You could by a NT or Marshall has the new 5 watter coming out... Looks like the Marsh is going for $499.00 as well. Anyways you know you have enough tubes to make that happen hehe.

One of these days I'm going to learn how to post pics. Doesn't Josh give directions somewhere in the thread here? I'll have to take some and at load it on the puter so at least I'll be that far with it.

I want a T-shirt with the Amperex's logo on it. What is it about them frigg'n light bulbs...:eek2:


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I put my glasses on to see those pics better and it was still blurry...
> 
> I like the Atomic logo(trademark)on the Amperex. Hope ya make some money on the bunch you put up. You could by a NT or Marshall has the new 5 watter coming out... Looks like the Marsh is going for $499.00 as well. Anyways you know you have enough tubes to make that happen hehe.
> 
> One of these days I'm going to learn how to post pics. Doesn't Josh give directions somewhere in the thread here? I'll have to take some and at load it on the puter so at least I'll be that far with it.
> 
> I want a T-shirt with the Amperex's logo on it. What is it about them frigg'n light bulbs...:eek2:



Yeah I know what you mean about the glasses. I put mine on and and thought I was looking at a picture of the Rocky Mountains.

Of course Joe you know that real frickin' old Amperex were called Bugle Boy and had a cartoon picture of a boy blowing a horn. This is one of about five trademarks they had. One was like a cartoon rocket. Strange, but then again what do you expect out of people who wore carved, wooden shoes?

Actually, I could buy several NT's if I sold some of my amps, but you can't get any money for them right now. I refuse to sell a $350 amp for $250!

I'm lost again. I didn't know about the Marshall 5 watt. Please use the preamp tube thread to tell me about it. Got a link?

I don't know if Josh put his tutorial on this thread or the one about, "Show Us Your Guitars." If I remember right I was the proud Daddy of a brand new 2009 Gibson Explorer and I needed to be shown how to post the pic's. Luckily, I figured it out before Josh left his directions (that were kick ass). I was told to use "Tiny Pics" and they didn't work worth a damn. My next try was Photo Bucket and they worked great. You have an uploader and it has like seven picture sizes. Some are titled, "15-inch screen, 17-inch screen and 19-inch screen...yah man, that's some big pictures." You select the size picture you want and hit "Upload." This opens your browser and you select either "Your Documents" or "Your Pictures." Once you are in "Your Pictures," you select the picture you want and double click on it. This loads the pic to Photo Bucket. To be short, you can edit your pic if you want. If you are happy with it, you point to the picture and four different links come up. You want the last one. Click on it and right click "Copy." Go to Marshall Forum, add your text and then copy and paste the link. It should begin and end with IMG. There you have it, DONE!

Maybe I'll make us some cool friggin' tube T-Shirts. 12AX7...No, it's not an Algebra quiz nimrod! (Hey, that one's not bad.)

I think I would prefer the NT over a 5W Marshall. I need more info on it though.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I know what you mean about the glasses. I put mine on and and thought I was looking at a picture of the Rocky Mountains.
> 
> Of course Joe you know that real frickin' old Amperex were called Bugle Boy and had a cartoon picture of a boy blowing a horn. This is one of about five trademarks they had. One was like a cartoon rocket. Strange, but then again what do you expect out of people who wore carved, wooden shoes?
> 
> Actually, I could buy several NT's if I sold some of my amps, but you can't get any money for them right now. I refuse to sell a $350 amp for $250!
> 
> I'm lost again. I didn't know about the Marshall 5 watt. Please use the preamp tube thread to tell me about it. Got a link?
> 
> I don't know if Josh put his tutorial on this thread or the one about, "Show Us Your Guitars." If I remember right I was the proud Daddy of a brand new 2009 Gibson Explorer and I needed to be shown how to post the pic's. Luckily, I figured it out before Josh left his directions (that were kick ass). I was told to use "Tiny Pics" and they didn't work worth a damn. My next try was Photo Bucket and they worked great. You have an uploader and it has like seven picture sizes. Some are titled, "15-inch screen, 17-inch screen and 19-inch screen...yah man, that's some big pictures." You select the size picture you want and hit "Upload." This opens your browser and you select either "Your Documents" or "Your Pictures." Once you are in "Your Pictures," you select the picture you want and double click on it. This loads the pic to Photo Bucket. To be short, you can edit your pic if you want. If you are happy with it, you point to the picture and four different links come up. You want the last one. Click on it and right click "Copy." Go to Marshall Forum, add your text and then copy and paste the link. It should begin and end with IMG. There you have it, DONE!
> 
> Maybe I'll make us some cool friggin' tube T-Shirts. 12AX7...No, it's not an Algebra quiz nimrod! (Hey, that one's not bad.)
> 
> I think I would prefer the NT over a 5W Marshall. I need more info on it though.



Here is a thread on the Marshall with links to it at Marshall:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/7219-marshall-class-5-a.html

On a side note I just got off a thread about a new Randall SS Dime amp based on the old RG100ES. Dime's tech worked on it for Randall and its supposedly a direct copy of what Dime was using at one point in time. I use to have a RG100ES and it was a killer SS head. The street price for a 100 watt head is about $350 from what I have read.

PS- Thanks for the uploading info. It would be cool to have T-shirts with some of the NOS logos.


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## MartyStrat54

Took a look, not interested. It's a Class A Single Ended amp. It's perfect for putting effects in the front end. There's no master volume, so you either crank it, or you use FX pedals. One of my all tube "death" distortion pedals would probably spank it all the way back home.

Does the NT have a master "V"?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Took a look, not interested. It's a Class A Single Ended amp. It's perfect for putting effects in the front end. There's no master volume, so you either crank it, or you use FX pedals. One of my all tube "death" distortion pedals would probably spank it all the way back home.
> 
> Does the NT have a master "V"?



Vox Night Train 15-watt Tube Guitar Amplifier Head Features:

* 15-watt all-tube guitar amplifier head
* Portable "armored box" design with included padded carrying bag
* Switchable between 15-watt Pentode Power Mode and 7.5-watt Triode Tone Mode
* Features 8-ohm and 16-ohm speaker outputs
* 2 EL84 power tubes and 2 12AX7 preamp tubes - same combination as the AC15
* Bright/Thick Switch and Treble, Middle, and Bass Controls
* Gain and Volume Controls
* 12.13" (W) x 6.30" (D) x 6.97" (H)
* Weight: 16.98 lbs
* Includes: Power cable, Speaker cable, and Carrying bag


Did I mention its a sweet amp?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Whoo, whoo...here comes the Night Train. Yeah baby!

It's like you said about the HAZE. "I can already get that tone, I wanted something that sounded different."

I have been looking at a lot of small amps and the nice thing about the NT is that you can chop the output by half and the amp is in triode mode basically running as a Class A or a very high Class AB. 

Have you played the old NT in the half power mode much? Is it creamier sounding over the full power pentode mode? 

My only bitch is I wish it had (2) 12AX7's for V1 and V2 and then the PI. You can't win them all. As it said, same tube lineup as the AC15. (Gee, you mean it makes 15 watts too?)

I decided that I didn't want to go with the nano amps. I mean they have some great purpose. I'm sure they make killer recording amps. The noise floor must be nonexistent. They would be something to get if you had all your other amps. Me? I still would like to have a FUCH's. They are really sweet and they start with an EL84 amp and go all the way up to a 150 watt amp with (6) 6550's. That's covering some ground, hey cowboy?

Fuchs Audio Technology | Handcrafted Tube Boutique Guitar Amplification | Plush Pedals | Home


----------



## MartyStrat54

For all of you that are coming here for the first time, we really do talk about preamp tubes and we really do test them and report our findings. However, sometimes other topics pop up and there are several of us "regulars" that take advantage of this. We should probably PM each other, but it is so much easier to just post on the thread. 

If you are looking for immediate advice about anything tube related, pre or power, simply post a message and we will get back to you asap.

Thanks for your understanding.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just thought that I would submit this picture. I have others that I think make me look better, but this one was taken with my old college drummer. We had a band on the side and we did Heart, Quarterflash and Pat Benatar, plus early AC/DC. I sang the AC/DC and the chick singer (who was going to be my first wife) handled the majority of our set. Just so you know who you are dealing with. That's me on the left wearing a HAMER T-Shirt. (I was going to get one, but then I got the 2009 Explorer for only $850 and I didn't need the Hamer Explorer after that. If you other guys get a chance, post a current mug shot of yourself.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

And let's not forget the mighty B and K 707 Tube Tester. My little baby. It serves me well.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just thought that I would submit this picture. I have others that I think make me look better, but this one was taken with my old college drummer. We had a band on the side and we did Heart, Quarterflash and Pat Benatar, plus early AC/DC. I sang the AC/DC and the chick singer (who was going to be my first wife) handled the majority of our set. Just so you know who you are dealing with. That's me on the left wearing a HAMER T-Shirt. (I was going to get one, but then I got the 2009 Explorer for only $850 and I didn't need the Hamer Explorer after that. If you other guys get a chance, post a current mug shot of yourself.)



I knew you were the one on the left. I guessed right. 

Great to meet ya Marty! Its very cool being able to know the face behind the tubes/thread hehe.

The Manimal is here!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> And let's not forget the mighty B and K 707 Tube Tester. My little baby. It serves me well.



I wish for one...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I don't want you to be walking around misinformed. You can buy a used 707 for about $300. Now mine has been calibrated and the rectifier tube removed and replaced with solid state rectification. This is the third one that I have owned. I started out with a 50's model that was actually built with a better top (all annealed copper), but the tube sockets were worn out. I actually had to bend pins on 12AX7's to get them to make contact so I could test them. I found a better one for less money than the first. I sold the old one on EBAY for $275. (I made money on this deal.) Finally, I bought this last one on EBAY and it was being sold by a family. It was their father's B and K, from his TV serviceman's days. I paid $285 for it and all of the sockets were good.

I've seen these go for over $500 on EBAY. Mostly ignorant clowns getting involved in a feeding frenzy. I think the current price is right at $300. The trick is buying one that isn't worn out. As you see, I wasn't lucky the first couple of times. When I got this one and all was good, I went through it and calibrated it per the factory specs. Hard to believe it sold for over a thousand dollars when new back in the early 60's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I don't want you to be walking around misinformed. You can buy a used 707 for about $300. Now mine has been calibrated and the rectifier tube removed and replaced with solid state rectification. This is the third one that I have owned. I started out with a 50's model that was actually built with a better top (all annealed copper), but the tube sockets were worn out. I actually had to bend pins on 12AX7's to get them to make contact so I could test them. I found a better one for less money than the first. I sold the old one on EBAY for $275. (I made money on this deal.) Finally, I bought this last one on EBAY and it was being sold by a family. It was their father's B and K, from his TV serviceman's days. I paid $285 for it and all of the sockets were good.
> 
> I've seen these go for over $500 on EBAY. Mostly ignorant clowns getting involved in a feeding frenzy. I think the current price is right at $300. The trick is buying one that isn't worn out. As you see, I wasn't lucky the first couple of times. When I got this one and all was good, I went through it and calibrated it per the factory specs. Hard to believe it sold for over a thousand dollars when new back in the early 60's.



Oh crikey! I thought they were way more. Glad you said something before I foobahed all over the place hehe. Yeah I thought they were all pretty spendy machines.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are other tube testers that are the same electronically as mine, but they demand more money, because they have a following of people who think they are better. One of the testers is a TV7. It was made by Hickok for the military. So naturally, if it's made for the military it has to be good. I'm not sold on it. My machine sets up much faster and I can test a lot of different tubes quicker than that TV7. That's the beauty of a B and K 707, they are fast. I went through all those tubes Josh sent me pretty damn fast and I was watching a baseball game while I was doing it. I looked around, listened to other owners and even researched the history of the B and K testers and I was sold on them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Whoo, whoo...here comes the Night Train. Yeah baby!
> 
> It's like you said about the HAZE. "I can already get that tone, I wanted something that sounded different."
> 
> I have been looking at a lot of small amps and the nice thing about the NT is that you can chop the output by half and the amp is in triode mode basically running as a Class A or a very high Class AB.
> 
> Have you played the old NT in the half power mode much? Is it creamier sounding over the full power pentode mode?
> 
> My only bitch is I wish it had (2) 12AX7's for V1 and V2 and then the PI. You can't win them all. As it said, same tube lineup as the AC15. (Gee, you mean it makes 15 watts too?)
> 
> I decided that I didn't want to go with the nano amps. I mean they have some great purpose. I'm sure they make killer recording amps. The noise floor must be nonexistent. They would be something to get if you had all your other amps. Me? I still would like to have a FUCH's. They are really sweet and they start with an EL84 amp and go all the way up to a 150 watt amp with (6) 6550's. That's covering some ground, hey cowboy?
> 
> Fuchs Audio Technology | Handcrafted Tube Boutique Guitar Amplification | Plush Pedals | Home



Fuchs amps are pretty sweet... But outta my budget.

QUOTE=MartyStrat54;53241]... That's me on the left wearing a HAMER T-Shirt. (I was going to get one, but then I got the 2009 Explorer for only $850 and I didn't need the Hamer Explorer after that. If you other guys get a chance, post a current mug shot of yourself.)




[/QUOTE]

Handsome Devil. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> And let's not forget the mighty B and K 707 Tube Tester. My little baby. It serves me well.



Again... Handsome Devil!



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Actually, I could buy several NT's if I sold some of my amps, but you can't get any money for them right now. I refuse to sell a $350 amp for $250!
> 
> I'm lost again. I didn't know about the Marshall 5 watt. Please use the preamp tube thread to tell me about it. Got a link?
> 
> I don't know if Josh put his tutorial on this thread or the one about, "Show Us Your Guitars." If I remember right I was the proud Daddy of a brand new 2009 Gibson Explorer and I needed to be shown how to post the pic's. Luckily, I figured it out before Josh left his directions (that were kick ass). I was told to use "Tiny Pics" and they didn't work worth a damn. My next try was Photo Bucket and they worked great. You have an uploader and it has like seven picture sizes. Some are titled, "15-inch screen, 17-inch screen and 19-inch screen...yah man, that's some big pictures." You select the size picture you want and hit "Upload." This opens your browser and you select either "Your Documents" or "Your Pictures." Once you are in "Your Pictures," you select the picture you want and double click on it. This loads the pic to Photo Bucket. To be short, you can edit your pic if you want. If you are happy with it, you point to the picture and four different links come up. You want the last one. Click on it and right click "Copy." Go to Marshall Forum, add your text and then copy and paste the link. It should begin and end with IMG. There you have it, DONE!
> 
> Maybe I'll make us some cool friggin' tube T-Shirts. 12AX7...No, it's not an Algebra quiz nimrod! (Hey, that one's not bad.)
> 
> I think I would prefer the NT over a 5W Marshall. I need more info on it though.



Looks like ya got the picture posting all figured out... But if there is anything along those lines that I can help any of you out with, just let me know.

I'd buy cool NOS logo shirts. That'd be pretty sweet. And I like the looks of the Marshall Class 5 too, but I wish it had a gain/master volume setup on it... I know it has a head phone out, but it's just not the same...
____________________________________________________

Finally got a chance to pour on some volume w/ the GE Twins in slots 3 & 4. This time, since the wife was outta the house I cranked the volume on clean to 6, crunchh to 7, and lead to 7.5. I have not really had a chance to put that kinda volume on this amp EVER. Wow that amp gets fat sounding! It's such a totally different animal when ya crank it up. Can't stand to be in the same room w/ it for sheer volume, but the tone is soo creamy it's incredible! Next up will be those two lovely ladies that Marty sent me! (Palms rubbing together in eager anticipation )


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had to work out a deal today that had kind of went sour. I bought $325 worth of tubes off of this guy. When they got here the six 1959 RCA "D" Getters were perfect. The GE 7025 was very nice. Then problems. The Philips ECG 7025 was 53-33!!! I moved on to six Sylvania Green Label 12AX7's. OMG! These were some of the hottest tubes I have ever seen. 50-38, 40-38, 42-32, 9 (yes 9)-32, 34-36 and 37-31. I decided to be a nice (dumb) guy and keep the 34-36 and 37-31 tubes. You know a big window for the PI slot. (At least we know that you can use these super high gainers in V3 and V4 without any ill effects. However, the rest of the stuff I'm sending back. Tested? Hmm, I wonder how that 9-32 got by him. Anyway, I worked out a deal with him and I hope that the new tubes he sends are decent. Every time I get a whole bunch of tubes, I just pray that they all will be between 22 and 30. You know like 23-24, 27-25, 28-30. Tubes like that. I have a lot of 12AX7's that are 31-33, 32-29 and such. These are on the borderline of overpowering the first preamp stage in the old Marshall. Again, some people will take less clean for more rip and tear and a 31-33 will rip and tear.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... The Philips ECG 7025 was *53-33!!!* I moved on to six Sylvania Green Label 12AX7's. OMG! These were some of the hottest tubes I have ever seen. *50-38, 40-38, 42-3*2, 9 (yes 9)-32, 34-36 and 37-31...



53-33? Holly Hannah! Talk about a wild ride? I mean... What was the original ICBM? Did that come close to touching 53? Whew!

Ok... I know I haven't really had a ton to say lately, but I have been following along... Maybe I missed it, but has anyone here actually tried a super high-gainer like the ICBM or beyond in V4 yet? If so... What were the results?


----------



## jcmjmp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those JJ pres are the culprit. From what I hear the 34L's have healthy amount of lowend too. I got the high gain kit from eurotubes with the KT77's and those JJ pres dulled my tone up. Changing to other preamp tubes made a significant change for the better. My EQ adjustments started working again meaning I had more balanced(frequency wise)preamp tubes in there. I had way more variations in tone too. I think their character are just a bit too strong especially 4 at once.
> 
> Like I say I know guys who really like them especially in bright amps. I have a bright amp and I still didn't like what I got from them. It doesn't matter to me. I put in what I like. Try a couple from Marty and you may be real glad you did.
> 
> Winged C EL34's are my favorite Current Production power tubes. Nice and open sounding. NOS power tubes are gonna cost ya if you ever go that far.



I've had the same problem with JJ tubes. Their 12AX7 sounds a little dull. The sizzle is missing. Just not my thing although some people love 'em. I figure that anyone that would do a blind A/B test with JJs VS say a Tung Sol would prefer the TS, even in a bright amp. They're OK in the PI position though. I have a couple of JJs in my amps and that's the only place I can tolerate them.

In three of my amps, I currently run some USA made 7025s in V1, Tung Sol or Chinese 12ax7 for the rest and the occasional JJ in PI as I said earlier.

For the EL-34s, the =C= is definitely the top tube on the market in terms of tone and reliability.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe the original ICBM was 30-31. Ratt is running a super hot RFT in V2, but I believe he is using a 12AT7 to tame it. He is also running a "high gain RFT in V4." Yes we did some tests using high gain and it actually "enhances the amp. It's hard to describe, but it's that damn window of tone/sound thing. So if you got a hot one, you can actually stick it in V3 or V4 and they will work. These are not gain stages, they are two separate circuits that just happen to use a 12XX7 type tube. Just as you can put a 12AT7 in V3 or V4, so can you put a hot whopper in the same two slots.

Here is one for the experiment board. Put a 12AT7 in V1 and a 38-42 in V2. What would happen? Would the AT7 be able to control a V2 as hot as that? My God, what would the LEAD channel sound like...Atomic Bomb blast?
Ratt, didn't you do this? Let me know and list the ratings on those two RFT's.


----------



## hodge50

Watford valves uk.
I,ve read a lot of the stuff on here with interest but has anyone tried the cryo balanced set from Harma.
apparently there selected to work with each other and harma cryos have a good reputation...any views


----------



## joshuaaewallen

hodge50 said:


> Watford valves uk.
> I,ve read a lot of the stuff on here with interest but has anyone tried the cryo balanced set from Harma.
> apparently there selected to work with each other and harma cryos have a good reputation...any views



Watford Valves... Never heard of them until you now. 

I did a search for the Cryos and came up w/ a variety of tubes including a number of 12AX7's. I believe this is the product you are referring to:
​ Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83-STR/HARMA CRYO 


> Harma Deep Cyrogenic Treated valves offers the immense warmth and smooth distortion characteristics only normally found in very expensive NOS valves such as Mullards. The process involves taking the vacuum tubes and freezing them down to -312 f and soaking these for a minimum of 12 hours. Then the temparature is held at this low level for 24 hours. The vacuum tubes are then slowly brought up to normal levels over the next 12 hours. Metals respond very well to deep cryogenic process. The reasons are as follows. During the cooling or solidification phase of the manufacturing process, molecules are trapped in a haphazard pattern. This is down to stress caused in the bending and welding of the anode plate material. This random placement causes obstacles for electrons and when encountered this interference can cause noise, slow down electron flow and sound deteriation affecting the quality of the sound of the vacuum tube. At very cold temperatures (below -312°F), the molecules will align in a more uniform, compact structure through the removal of kinetic energy. When the material is returned to ambient temperature, this new uniform, compact pattern is maintained, Thus changing the structure of the nickel permanently. This process makes a permanent change and the benefits do not deteriorate over time or upon return to operating temperature, it changes the whole way the vacuum tube performs. The biggest benefits I have found has been a dramatic improvement in dymanic range. Bass response has been clearer with reduction in microphonics. The really most starling fact as been how the valve operates under saturated and overdriven conditions. Some day all valves will be treated this way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The new Harma STR ECC83 is a recreation of the famous Telefunken ECC803S.
> The valve has a frame grid construction which eliminates microphonics. The grids are all gold plated as the original Telefunken The valve is the most neutral and has the warmest vintage tone of all the current production ECC83/12AX7 types. This makes it a great choice for clear Fender sounds or warming up a harsh amp. The tubes are all tested for low noise, low microphoney and are drive tested with a gain rating of between 229 and 249 digital points.
> 
> This is a specially cryogenically treated version.
> £18.00
> £16.00​



Honestly... My first inclination is to think that this is just a gimmick. But I'm willing to listen to what others have to say...​


----------



## solarburn

I gotta say I'm a bit of a skeptic too. I just haven't seen any new production tricks pay off yet. It may be just a matter of time and I hope it happens, as long as the new tubes are reasonably priced, it will be a win for all of us. Like Marty stated earlier it may have the effect of driving down NOS prices which will be part of that win.

I will say its going to take the tube manufacturers to develop them and us to try them out in our amps to confirm/reject their claims. I can't help but feel a bit frosty towards the Harma's claims...maybe it is that good but I don't know cause I haven't tried it and rolling the tube is the deciding factor.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is one for the experiment board. Put a 12AT7 in V1 and a 38-42 in V2. What would happen? Would the AT7 be able to control a V2 as hot as that? My God, what would the LEAD channel sound like...Atomic Bomb blast?
> Ratt, didn't you do this? Let me know and list the ratings on those two RFT's.



I haven't tried the 12AT7 in V1. The AT7 is currently in semi-retirement. Those RFT's were rated 39-39 and 39-40 by the seller and they are pretty strong. I've still got the RCA 22-23 in V1, one of the RFT's in V2, another RCA 23-28 in V3, and the other RFT in V4. I liked the AT7 in V3, but after awhile it seemed like the amp was a little too compressed and not very responsive. Putting a low gain 12AX7 in V3 seems to balance it out nicely. Of course, all this will have changed by next week. Just for sh!ts and giggles, I tried a 12BZ7 in V4 and it didn't make any difference except for a tendency to feed back.

I'm still not happy with the harshness on the ultra gain channel. If the treble and/or presence is set above 4, the tone is too thin and trebly compared to the crunch channel. I did recently play through a different cabinet recently, and I think the G12T-75's may be a good bit of the problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Watford Valves... Never heard of them until you now.
> 
> I did a search for the Cryos and came up w/ a variety of tubes including a number of 12AX7's. I believe this is the product you are referring to:
> ​ Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83-STR/HARMA CRYO
> 
> 
> Honestly... My first inclination is to think that this is just a gimmick. But I'm willing to listen to what others have to say...​



I never have said anything about them because they are not a tube manufacturer. They specialize in "freezing" other people's tubes and then relabeling them under their brand. Heck, even JJ offers cyro tubes for a few dollars more. I saw a set of JJ Cyro EL34's on EBAY for 60 days...they never sold them. (Shiat, what did the listing cost the seller?) Anyways, I believe the tube that is shown is a Chinese copy of a Telefunken. How close? Well an original Telefunken didn't need to be frozen to sound good...right?

Here is an exert from the WATFORD "About Us" link.

Watford Valves are the first company to introduce Cryogenic treatment on an established brand. To read more about the Harma Cryogenic range and this revolutionary treatment select the Cryogenic section from our products menu.

If you had looked a little closer, they have a menu of established tubes that they will, or have already frozen. The tubes are made in Russian and China. 

Hey, I'm not saying they don't sound good. At that price they better be. What is the current conversion for 16 British pounds (or is it Euro's)? Then you need to add across the pond shipping. If they sound as good as they say they are, you would hear about them on various forums and it would sound like this. "Who needs Tube Tech and their microphonics when you can have a Watford frozen valve!" Right? Ever hear of anyone praising these tubes on The Gear Page?

All I am doing is spreading information. I haven't tried any and they are not on my list. However, if I start reading a bunch of rave reviews, then I will think about getting some. Does that sound fair?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't tried the 12AT7 in V1. The AT7 is currently in semi-retirement. Those RFT's were rated 39-39 and 39-40 by the seller and they are pretty strong. I've still got the RCA 22-23 in V1, one of the RFT's in V2, another RCA 23-28 in V3, and the other RFT in V4. I liked the AT7 in V3, but after awhile it seemed like the amp was a little too compressed and not very responsive. Putting a low gain 12AX7 in V3 seems to balance it out nicely. Of course, all this will have changed by next week. Just for sh!ts and giggles, I tried a 12BZ7 in V4 and it didn't make any difference except for a tendency to feed back.
> 
> I'm still not happy with the harshness on the ultra gain channel. If the treble and/or presence is set above 4, the tone is too thin and trebly compared to the crunch channel. I did recently play through a different cabinet recently, and I think the G12T-75's may be a good bit of the problem.



I have a funny feeling the harshness on the Ultra channel is due to that RFT in V2. I bet if you redid your lineup by changing out V2 with a tube that was say 27-29, it would take care of it. 

If I didn't test the RFT's, how did you end up with the test ratings you did? They seem to be 707 ratings, or were they tested on a TV-7? On a TV-7, 32 is the minimum good, so 39 would be a nominal/new tube. However, on a 707, 39 would be beyond an ICBM. It would cause distortion in the circuit.

You may have to keep V1 and put the RFT's in V3 and V4 and then find a good 28-29 (or 30-30) tube for V2 to cure your lead channel woes.


----------



## RiverRatt

In the auction, it says they were tested on a TV-7B, so I guess they aren't as hot as I thought.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> In the auction, it says they were tested on a TV-7B, so I guess they aren't as hot as I thought.



Well I would take the one's you got over a couple of super hot one's. So in reality, you got some nice tubes and they should be usable in any position.


----------



## solarburn

Hey guys...don't you know I've put an AT7 in V1 and liked it? I didn't have a ICBM in V2 though but I thought it sounded alright. You got to remember though that I like to boost so any short of body or gain I got back with my pedal. It helps clear up saturation and add some more articulation but I think you need to like lower gain textures to really enjoy it. YMMV!


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## MartyStrat54

Gee Solar, I forgot that you like AT7's. Shiat! What's wrong with me. Heck, you even found a way to put an AT7 in your CD player.

Well there was just some minor confusion and it has all been taken care of.

To be honest Joe, there has been so much stuff posted, I can't remember half of what I said. I would like to get some new blood on here. That would be nice, but it takes a strange breed of man to really love the tube rollin'.

I did sell a guy some complete sets for an 800 and a TSL100. Boy he ordered up some good ones. Mullards, Amperex 7025's and Raytheon Black Plates. He sure knew what he wanted. I gave him some really nice Mullards (heck they were in the low 30's). That should wake up that 800!:eek2::cool2: Damn thing should wail.

Oh and thanks for the info on the new Egnater amp. It's a big version of the Rebel. It's quite a jump from 20 watts to 65 watts.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee Solar, I forgot that you like AT7's. Shiat! What's wrong with me. Heck, you even found a way to put an AT7 in your CD player.
> 
> Well there was just some minor confusion and it has all been taken care of.
> 
> To be honest Joe, there has been so much stuff posted, I can't remember half of what I said. I would like to get some new blood on here. That would be nice, but it takes a strange breed of man to really love the tube rollin'.
> 
> I did sell a guy some complete sets for an 800 and a TSL100. Boy he ordered up some good ones. Mullards, Amperex 7025's and Raytheon Black Plates. He sure knew what he wanted. I gave him some really nice Mullards (heck they were in the low 30's). That should wake up that 800!:eek2::cool2: Damn thing should wail.
> 
> Oh and thanks for the info on the new Egnater amp. It's a big version of the Rebel. It's quite a jump from 20 watts to 65 watts.



Hehe. Dogmoon has the Rebel 30 vid up now as well. 5 12AX7's, 2 EL84's and 2 6L6's. Check it out.

Awesome tonepacks for those amps man! Got to go to work now!

Joe


----------



## Jesstaa

Hello again good people of the Preamp tube thread,
I've been putting alot more time aside towards my musicyness, and I decided I might as well join the tube rolling that seems to be going on, I can be another JCM 900 guinea pig as well, currently I'm using the following in my amp
V1 - Chinese Made National 12AX7A (It has a little logo on it, like a crosshairs with a 1 on the top, dunno where it's from, sounds decent) 
V2 - JJ ECC83S High Gain
v3 - Another Chinese Made National 12AX7A.

I'll put pics up when I can be bothered.
In my power section, I'm using Groove Fender Blue rated 6L6GC's, but I hope to soon (When I get my amp fixed up and rewired) have it modded to take EL34s.

So... Somebody fill me in =P


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Solar...

... What are your thoughts on this (especially w/ all the NOS goodies you've been running these days...)?

Vox Newsletter​


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, I tried out some of them 1959 RCA D-Getters out and they are the shiat. Man they sound sweet. They have a real smooth mid range, smokey sounding with a nice bass roll off, not to abrupt. The highs are nice and chimey. These would probably make a Twin player wet his pants. I ended up with nine of these. Almost all of them the labeling on the tube is like 95 to 100 per cent readable. The guy that was selling them sold them at a fixed price of $19.99. I gobbled up all he had left. He had 16 and I got nine of them. 

I had them in my 602 with the Altec 417's (made famous by Carlos Santana. He used them in his Boogie). RFT EL34's and the RCA "D's" in V1 and V2. Was a very nice combo. V1 was 25-24 and V2 was 27-29. Some of the tubes actually tested at 26-26 and 29-29. I think four or five of them tested equal. Those always make nice tubes.

Stuck them in my "working 401" (just V1 and V2) and was very satisfied with the tone of the amp. Pushing it at about 15 watts, the Eminence Alnico Red Fang started to bite. It is a low wattage speaker, just barely able to handle the 40 watt 401. Therefore the speaker and the tubes at about half power were sounding very cool and I was thinking, "Hot Rod Blues Anyone?"

Anyway, I couldn't believe this guy was selling them for 20 bucks. They were all in primo shape. Oh well, I hope I find more like this.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Solar...
> 
> ... What are your thoughts on this (especially w/ all the NOS goodies you've been running these days...)?
> 
> Vox Newsletter​



When I get a chance I'll try some of these out on my days off. The power tubes I have in mine break up earlier and are warmer and fatter plus the preamp section I warmed up too. I imagine the results are going to be different but I will check these settings out any ways. It will be fun to see what I get.

Oh and this is the first I have seen of these. Thanx Josh!


----------



## solarburn

Check this out guys:

The Tube Roller

$300.00

Access to my preamp section is easy enough. I keep the back open for roll'n tubes. I also keep my amp on while I roll the preamp section but in standby. I handle the hot tube with a sock. Not a problem. I'm not re-heating the tube section every time I change or roll a preamp tube. I don't have to wait that long for one cold preamp tube to warm up enough to sample. All the other tubes remain ready to go.

Just think of all the tubes I could buy for $300...I'm not putting the product down. I just don't feel I need it. I get a pretty good sense of how a tube sounds and compares to another the way I roll em' now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It sort of like my cabinet invention. Do you really need one? I mean $300 bucks for that! I'd rather pay 10 bucks for a pot roller.:cool2::cool2:

People invent all sorts of stuff and then the selling price becomes an issue. If they can make a 22 watt guitar amp the size of a stomp box for $95, then they should be able to sell this device for about $40. That ain't no shiat.

In a ways it's not really that helpful. Say you are getting ready to roll four tubes in V1. You are still going to have to mess with pulling two hot tubes from the "Roller." I will say exchanging tubes would be easier with the Roller, but the $300 price tag makes me find the hole every time.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is it entirely safe to swap preamp tubes on standby? Seems like I heard that jarring a hot filament in a tube is like doing the same to a light bulb - the filament is more fragile when it's hot.

Joe, I needed something to pull a hot EL34 one time and didn't have anything lying around, so I picked up a sheet of instructions I had printed on a laser printer. I wrapped the paper around the tube and pulled it out, and the toner came off the paper and adhered to the tube. This was on an unbranded JJ white box tube, too. Cool way to personalize (or rebrand) your power tubes.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Is it entirely safe to swap preamp tubes on standby? Seems like I heard that jarring a hot filament in a tube is like doing the same to a light bulb - the filament is more fragile when it's hot.
> 
> Joe, I needed something to pull a hot EL34 one time and didn't have anything lying around, so I picked up a sheet of instructions I had printed on a laser printer. I wrapped the paper around the tube and pulled it out, and the toner came off the paper and adhered to the tube. This was on an unbranded JJ white box tube, too. Cool way to personalize (or rebrand) your power tubes.



Oh snap!

I made the mistake of trying my sock technique with an EL84 once...never again have I tried to do it with a power tube. Just too F'ing hot!!! The pres are manageable and I haven't had any misshaps yet...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Them EL84's get damn hot. Very deceptive. I went to pull one out of my tube tester and it burned me in three places. Normally I don't leave the tube in that long, but that one had been in long enough it was like grabbing the end of a soldering iron. (And people wonder why the solder flows off of the bridge rectifiers in a 201/401?)

I was on another thread and they had the guts of an early Plexi exposed. The plate voltage was 650!!! Can you imagine pulling power tubes out bare handed on an amp like this? OMG those tubes would be hot. I wonder what the bias is for a 650V tube?

I did the math. It would only be 38mV for 6550's or KT88's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Them EL84's get damn hot. Very deceptive. I went to pull one out of my tube tester and it burned me in three places. Normally I don't leave the tube in that long, but that one had been in long enough it was like grabbing the end of a soldering iron. (And people wonder why the solder flows off of the bridge rectifiers in a 201/401?)
> 
> I was on another thread and they had the guts of an early Plexi exposed. The plate voltage was 650!!! Can you imagine pulling power tubes out bare handed on an amp like this? OMG those tubes would be hot. I wonder what the bias is for a 650V tube?
> 
> I did the math. It would only be 38mV for 6550's or KT88's.



I had a thicker sock on when I did it and I still immediately got burned. Ouch man. Talk about learn'n the hard way. 

I sure like that EH 22 Caliber amp/pedal. How long before you and me have one?


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## MartyStrat54

Well my friend, if they ever call me to come and pick up my amps in KC, I'll probably go swing by the massive Musician's Friends warehouse and pick one up. Maybe I'll deal with the same manager who sold me the mint Explorer for $850. I'll tell him, "Look you give me a free 22 caliber amp and I'll buy a Night Train."

How does that deal sound?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well my friend, if they ever call me to come and pick up my amps in KC, I'll probably go swing by the massive Musician's Friends warehouse and pick one up. Maybe I'll deal with the same manager who sold me the mint Explorer for $850. I'll tell him, "Look you give me a free 22 caliber amp and I'll buy a Night Train."
> 
> How does that deal sound?



That my friend would be a good day shop'n hehe. I imagine its just a matter of time before I have to have one...its just too trick.

You need to get the lil' train that can...

Can't wait to see what Tone Pack you put in it...


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, what can you tell me about a tube branded "United Electron" and "Made in England"?


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## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, what can you tell me about a tube branded "United Electron" and "Made in England"?



This company was out of New Jersey and at some point was bought out I believe in 57 or 58. I bought a bunch of their empty 9 pin tube boxes to store my 12AX7's in. These boxes say, "United Electronic Tube," on the box. Same company as United Electron, USA or England. Their tube box is surprisingly similar to a GE box. In fact, with today's trademark laws, it would not be allowed. It was identical, except for the brand name on the box. 

United was in the business of relabeling tubes. Not surprising was the fact that they bought a lot of GE's. They also bought RCA, Westinghouse and Sylvania. Some people claim that United bought seconds from the above companies. This would include tubes with noise problems or each side of the triodes were highly mismatched. Some people say that the tubes they got worked fine. All this info sort of disappeared when the company folded sometime in the early 80's.

It does explain why there is a surplus of their tube boxes for sale. If they were relabeling, they would need lots of boxes.

What have you found? Anything good? Note-The relabeled tubes will still bear the original manufacturer's mark, so you should be able to tell if it is a GE, RCA, etc.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah, hell, I won't be buying them anyways. Was just wondering about the "Made in England" label and if they might be Mules.

Vintage Pair, English 6CA7 - EL-34, Parts Project Amp - eBay (item 310098872768 end time Sep-04-09 12:41:54 PDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Ah, hell, I won't be buying them anyways. Was just wondering about the "Made in England" label and if they might be Mules.
> 
> Vintage Pair, English 6CA7 - EL-34, Parts Project Amp - eBay (item 310098872768 end time Sep-04-09 12:41:54 PDT)



What a weird listing. Why does he say, "Parts Project?" Hard to say what those are. Hell, they could be RFT's. These tubes were made in that era when, "Made in USA" was on the box containing a Japanese made tube and no one had control over this sort of false advertising. The box was made in the USA. The tube was made in Japan. Sort of like this situation. The seller says, "They are made like Mullards." He doesn't say that they "are" Mullards. If they are made like Mullards...who made them and what country were they made in? I think the $129 is a joke. I can get real RFT's for $99 a pair and I know where they are made and they come new in a box. This is a, "I can't guarantee these tubes to work, but they look good. He didn't state any exact testing data. He makes a vague statement that they test good. These are the type of listings I pass on.


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## MartyStrat54

Hey Ratt, did you notice that this weird listing says last revised on 2:29:56 AM PST on November 9, 2008. What the hell is that all about?

I sent the seller a message. Here it is.

Hi: United was a New Jersey company that used the name United Electron, Made In England and Made in USA. They relabeled tubes. If these tubes are made like Mullards...who made them? What is the country of origin? Are they relabeled RFT's? Did you test these on an Emissions Tester, or a Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tester? Makes a big difference especially on power tube. Please fill me in. Marty

I'll let you know if he answers.


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## RiverRatt

So in all likelihood, these tubes were not actually made in England? I thought that legally a manufacturer had to list the actual country of origin.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, I'm not saying they don't sound good. At that price they better be. What is the current conversion for 16 British pounds (or is it Euro's)? Then you need to add across the pond shipping. If they sound as good as they say they are, you would hear about them on various forums and it would sound like this. "Who needs Tube Tech and their microphonics when you can have a Watford frozen valve!" Right? Ever hear of anyone praising these tubes on The Gear Page??



I might try them, they'd cost about the same as other tube makes, it's $94 AUD for a quad of 5881s plus shipping. Should be about $120 for them with shipping included, I paid $180 for a quad of JJ KT77s and 3 ECC83 High Gains (The KT77s didn't work because my bias circuit was fucked or the tubes weren't hot enough, even though I requested a hot set).

Edit: Yeah, not exactly the preamp tubes, but you know, I'll still be giving them a shot. Might chuck in a 12AX7 if I have the cash. Reckon I should test a cryo tube if I get one?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Black Plate V3 & V4 - Virgin Run*

Well... I finally went about my first trial run w/ those two BP's in V3 & V4. As always this was in my TSL, and the line up is as follows:

V1:

 
V2:


V3:

 
V4:



As usual my initial test was done at relatively low volume (only about 2.5 on the crunch and lead channels) and with the VPR engaged. Honestly, I don't think that at this volume and in these slots there was much difference between these and the GE twins that had been in there prior to this. However both sets are far superior to the JJ's in V3 & V4. Likely where I'll note more differences is when I get to crank it up a bit. One thing I did notice... This combination of tubes really brings out the high gain sweetness of my PRS' neck pickup. Crank the gain on the lead channel, switch to neck pickup, add a touch of delay and reverb... Sweet Child 'O Mine!

I'll likely be migrating these in V1 & 2 at some point to see how they respond there (since that's where most of the tone comes from) and in the end... Who knows what'll sound the best. Thanks again Marty! Yo Da Man!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Tone Chasing...*

I have been in a major Def Leppard mood lately. And have been jonesin' for that Hysteria/Adrenalize sound. I know this isn't really pre-amp tube related, but... I know some of you guys are big into pedals and such, have vast collections of pedals and pedal know-how, and your input regarding tubes has been exceptional, so...

Can I have ya take a look at an old thread of mine and give me your thoughts on how to chase down that tone without breaking the bank and using my current gear as a starting point...

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/4079-def-leppard-how-do-i-get-there.html


So as not to get too offtrack, if you have any comments please leave them over at the other thread... Thanks in advance for any and all input you can provide! Rock on!



 

 


​


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> So in all likelihood, these tubes were not actually made in England? I thought that legally a manufacturer had to list the actual country of origin.



Technically, yes. But as I said, when tube production was moved almost exclusively to Japan, the box would say, "Made in USA." The tube would have, "Made in Japan" in very small print, usually at the very edge of the base and in a very light colored print (that would come off easily when rubbed).

If it happened today, the Fed's would be all over it, but it happened in the mid to late 60's and the country was engulfed in a bloody war.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, I posted over in the Def Leppard thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> I might try them, they'd cost about the same as other tube makes, it's $94 AUD for a quad of 5881s plus shipping. Should be about $120 for them with shipping included, I paid $180 for a quad of JJ KT77s and 3 ECC83 High Gains (The KT77s didn't work because my bias circuit was fucked or the tubes weren't hot enough, even though I requested a hot set).
> 
> Edit: Yeah, not exactly the preamp tubes, but you know, I'll still be giving them a shot. Might chuck in a 12AX7 if I have the cash. Reckon I should test a cryo tube if I get one?



Too bad you live across the big pond. How long does it take to get a package from the US? Did you get your amp 100 per cent fixed? I hope so. You and Landshark have had some troubles. If you try these tubes, just remember that other than the CYRO treatment, they are just regular Russian or Chinese tubes. To me it's a gimmick to get more money off of a buyer. Sort of like, "You need a perfectly balanced tube in the phase inverter." We all know that's not true. However, people pay the tube stores extra money for a "matched" 12AX7 and they know you don't need it. I did notice there were several guys from Australia that were moving large quantities of tubes on EBAY. I would rather see you buy a couple of good tubes for your preamp and a nice set of used NOS for your power section. Just remember, you can get real RFT EL34's new in the box for $200. I bought a quad for my TSL122. 

Just something to consider.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another satisfied customer.
thought you'd like an update, I recieved your tubes yesterday in good shape.

In the TSL100: I put the 7025 Amperex (28-27) in V1

Mullard (32-30) in V2

Results: Fantastic. I gotta say, I've tried many Sylvania's, RCA's, JJ's, Tung sol, Ruby, Sovtek : ( , in the amp thru the past couple of years, so I figured the Amp was at the best it would get. After I read your forum posts about the combo's that you have played with I thought I'd give it a shot. Hell you only live once, right? Now your recommended tubes selection REALLY brought out tones in my amp that I didn't know existed.(Good tones)

First the clean channel is still very warm and thick. I was concerned I might lose tone in the clean channel due to the hot tubes but no worries there now. The clean is very "wide" and very useful for me. Its much thicker on the distorted channel 2 (green) and I like the definition and warmth it brought to it but what really impressed me was the Red (3rd) channel, it has always been kinda weak for me. It was a "messy" "kinda fuzzy" type of distortion. But with this new lineup of tubes, that channel really SHINES. I really like it much better, its actually good for rhythm and leads now. I use a mod'ed TS-7 as my boost with an eq in the loop for extra volume during solos. I can't wait to play out tomorrow evening and sunday with this NEW beast. ; )

My '85 JCM-800, did really open up with just putting the other Mullard in V1. I'm liking the more crunch and just overall better tone I get with it. Its funny how when you're amp sounds better (whether you change tubes, speakers,etc) you tend to play better and more comfortably in the songs. I tend to "feel" the players style when I do covers. I kinda "get into the song" so when I played the JCM-800 I started to play some Jimmy Page, when I played the TSL, i was rockin out to Zakk, and Priest. 

So you've convinced another guitarist that NOS or ANOS does pay off.(if they're tested properly)

thanks,

mike from Welcome to Too Many Mikes!

Thank you for your comments, Mike.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Ratt. Here is the reply from the guy selling the United EL34's,

Sam Bullers - Po Bx 385 - Marana, Az. 85653

READ The Description... LOOK at the picture... Now you know as much as I do... When they say MADE IN ENGLAND in big yellow letters, presumably THAT is the country of origin... Sorry, I'm not an EXPERT on either VINTAGE Tubes or Testers. (RFT's ?)

THX!

Sam


Life is not a Bowl of Cherries - It's a Jalapeno. What you do today will bite you in the ass tomorrow!

Just as I thought. Another idiot trying to sell tubes. I bet they test at 100. He doesn't even know what RFT is and he is not an expert on tubes and testers. Does he even have a tester? Does he even know how to test tubes?

Use a ten foot pole around this guy.:eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## joshuaaewallen

When it comes to picking tubes... Marty is THE MAN!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Check this out guys:
> 
> The Tube Roller
> 
> $300.00
> 
> Access to my preamp section is easy enough. I keep the back open for roll'n tubes. I also keep my amp on while I roll the preamp section but in standby. I handle the hot tube with a sock. Not a problem. I'm not re-heating the tube section every time I change or roll a preamp tube. I don't have to wait that long for one cold preamp tube to warm up enough to sample. All the other tubes remain ready to go.
> 
> Just think of all the tubes I could buy for $300...I'm not putting the product down. I just don't feel I need it. I get a pretty good sense of how a tube sounds and compares to another the way I roll em' now.



I like the tube roller in principle... But I don't care too much for the $300 price tag! 

When I've done my rolling I've always just completely powered the amp down in between swapping out tubes... Is there an advantage/disadvantage to just putting the amp in stand-by while doing this? I guess I've been too afraid that I might fry something.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> When I've done my rolling I've always just completely powered the amp down in between swapping out tubes... Is there an advantage/disadvantage to just putting the amp in stand-by while doing this? I guess I've been too afraid that I might fry something.



Standby just leaves the heater element on. In reality, it is best to shut of all power to the tube before moving it. They are pretty hardy, so a lot of people just move them in and out with all power on. Most preamp tubes are running over 200 volts at real low current. The heaters are drawing more current than the tube.

To be safe, I would recommend all power be turned off and the tube not moved for about 30 seconds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> When it comes to picking tubes... Marty is THE MAN!!!



Blush!


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Too bad you live across the big pond. How long does it take to get a package from the US? Did you get your amp 100 per cent fixed? I hope so. You and Landshark have had some troubles. If you try these tubes, just remember that other than the CYRO treatment, they are just regular Russian or Chinese tubes. To me it's a gimmick to get more money off of a buyer. Sort of like, "You need a perfectly balanced tube in the phase inverter." We all know that's not true. However, people pay the tube stores extra money for a "matched" 12AX7 and they know you don't need it. I did notice there were several guys from Australia that were moving large quantities of tubes on EBAY. I would rather see you buy a couple of good tubes for your preamp and a nice set of used NOS for your power section. Just remember, you can get real RFT EL34's new in the box for $200. I bought a quad for my TSL122.
> 
> Just something to consider.



I don't really trust ebay power tubes, because I can get alternatives at a decent price anyway.

It takes 1 week for a tube shipment to get from the U.S, and the shipping there cost me $28 =s One thing I'm sure you guys wouldn't have to worry about as much with all the tube stockers in the country. Also why I'll give those other tubes a shot, I'm gonna pay shipping no matter where I get it from, no big tube stockers like Eurotubes around here.

And once I end up actually making some money (Gotta start looking for a job) I'll begin rolling mah tubes.

Oh yeah, my amp isn't fixed yet either, the power transformer is making a hissing sound now, so I'm gonna replace both of the trannys with hammond trannys =D. And while it's at the tech, I'm gonna get it rewired, have the capacitors replaced and get the guy to look over it. Should I get them to mod my amp for EL34s while they're at it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the tube mod can be done quickly and cheaply, I would say, "Hell yeah!" I think EL34's in the 900 is a lot more rocking than 6L6's. 

I've used a lot of Hammond transformers before in all sorts of amps. They are a quality product, especially at the price.

I do hope that you get you TSL going again. The tech called me today and I am going to Kansas City on Monday to pick up my TSL122 and one of my DSL 401's. It will be great to have them back. The 122 has all new RFT's in it and NOS preamp tubes. The 401 has RCA gray plate EL84's and NOS preamp tubes. It sure will be nice having them back home.

Make sure you let me know when you get your TSL fixed and I mean really fixed and you can dime the mother.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Another satisfied customer.
> thought you'd like an update, I recieved your tubes yesterday in good shape.
> 
> In the TSL100: I put the 7025 Amperex (28-27) in V1
> 
> Mullard (32-30) in V2
> 
> Results: Fantastic. I gotta say, I've tried many Sylvania's, RCA's, JJ's, Tung sol, Ruby, Sovtek : ( , in the amp thru the past couple of years, so I figured the Amp was at the best it would get. After I read your forum posts about the combo's that you have played with I thought I'd give it a shot. Hell you only live once, right? Now your recommended tubes selection REALLY brought out tones in my amp that I didn't know existed.(Good tones)
> 
> First the clean channel is still very warm and thick. I was concerned I might lose tone in the clean channel due to the hot tubes but no worries there now. The clean is very "wide" and very useful for me. Its much thicker on the distorted channel 2 (green) and I like the definition and warmth it brought to it but what really impressed me was the Red (3rd) channel, it has always been kinda weak for me. It was a "messy" "kinda fuzzy" type of distortion. But with this new lineup of tubes, that channel really SHINES. I really like it much better, its actually good for rhythm and leads now. I use a mod'ed TS-7 as my boost with an eq in the loop for extra volume during solos. I can't wait to play out tomorrow evening and sunday with this NEW beast. ; )
> 
> My '85 JCM-800, did really open up with just putting the other Mullard in V1. I'm liking the more crunch and just overall better tone I get with it. Its funny how when you're amp sounds better (whether you change tubes, speakers,etc) you tend to play better and more comfortably in the songs. I tend to "feel" the players style when I do covers. I kinda "get into the song" so when I played the JCM-800 I started to play some Jimmy Page, when I played the TSL, i was rockin out to Zakk, and Priest.
> 
> So you've convinced another guitarist that NOS or ANOS does pay off.(if they're tested properly)
> 
> thanks,
> 
> mike from Welcome to Too Many Mikes!
> 
> Thank you for your comments, Mike.



Another one getting great results with an MM Tone Pack. 

There are a few of us now...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I like the tube roller in principle... But I don't care too much for the $300 price tag!
> 
> When I've done my rolling I've always just completely powered the amp down in between swapping out tubes... Is there an advantage/disadvantage to just putting the amp in stand-by while doing this? I guess I've been too afraid that I might fry something.



Some of us are just looking for extra stimulation wherever we can find it...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> READ The Description... LOOK at the picture... Now you know as much as I do... When they say MADE IN ENGLAND in big yellow letters, presumably THAT is the country of origin... Sorry, I'm not an EXPERT on either VINTAGE Tubes or Testers. (RFT's ?)



Great. Sounds like either (A) he knows LESS than we do, or (B) he's hoping that someone will think England = Mullard and sell the tubes for more than they are worth. I'll bet even my wife knows what an RFT is. 



> Life is not a Bowl of Cherries - It's a Jalapeno. What you do today will bite you in the ass tomorrow!



That's why you gotta eat a little ice cream... c'mon, ice cream!

I made my usual trek around all the local thrift stores and antique/flea markets yesterday looking for tubes. I found one old console stereo, but there was no one around to give me a price. Instead of tubes, I found an old Yamaha classical guitar for $25. What's weird is, the other day I was thinking about an old beat-to-hell Yamaha classical guitar I had at least 15 years ago, and I think this is the same guitar. Classical guitars are not exactly common in this area, and it sure looks like the same one. It plays and sounds beautiful, but it's as ugly as a cat's ass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It sounds like he gets bit in the ass often. A total whacko. All you can do is pray that he doesn't go ballistic in a grocery store or someplace. I always like when someone uses all capitals. It's like it makes them feel like they are yelling at you. It somehow makes them feel better. BITE MY ASS, YOU DUMB SHIT!!! See what I mean?

Yeah, my old Yamaha story is from way back in 1974. A guy that had a drug problem sold an FG-180 to another guy who had a drug problem and in a few days I was asked if I wanted to buy it? It was sort of beat up, but the neck on it was perfect, so I bought it for $40. I've had that guitar ever since. Imagine my surprise when I found out that an FG-180 is compared to Taylor and Martin guitars. I can't remember the year, but I know the guitar was made on July 4 of 1971 or 72. Anyway, it is all beat to hell and was even stolen once and recovered. A guitar like that you just got to keep.

Hey you ever heard of "Red Tip" CBS 12AX7's? They are supposed to be one of the best sounding American tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey I found a cool site. They have archived pictures of all the old tubes going up to the 70's or so. You can check out all the old Amperex tubes, Mullards, Telefunkens, RCA, etc. I was trying to find out some info on these Red Tipped CBS tubes and I came across this site. Pretty cool.

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/main.php

Old Tubes Rule!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey I found a cool site. They have archived pictures of all the old tubes going up to the 70's or so. You can check out all the old Amperex tubes, Mullards, Telefunkens, RCA, etc. I was trying to find out some info on these Red Tipped CBS tubes and I came across this site. Pretty cool.
> 
> tubemongerlib.com
> 
> Old Tubes Rule!!!



That is a cool resource! Thanks Marty!


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> If the tube mod can be done quickly and cheaply, I would say, "Hell yeah!" I think EL34's in the 900 is a lot more rocking than 6L6's.
> 
> I've used a lot of Hammond transformers before in all sorts of amps. They are a quality product, especially at the price.
> 
> I do hope that you get you TSL going again. The tech called me today and I am going to Kansas City on Monday to pick up my TSL122 and one of my DSL 401's. It will be great to have them back. The 122 has all new RFT's in it and NOS preamp tubes. The 401 has RCA gray plate EL84's and NOS preamp tubes. It sure will be nice having them back home.
> 
> Make sure you let me know when you get your TSL fixed and I mean really fixed and you can dime the mother.



900 dude, not a TSL xD

And I shall. So, as soon as I get these transformers shipped, I'll drive up to Melbourne, get them installed, have the caps replaced, have it modded to EL34s (Pitty, these 6L6's are relatively new... anyone wanna buy them? They sound nice lol) and have it rewired, and I think I'll have the beast. Sounds like quite a bit of work though, hope it doesn't take them too long. 

Anyway, I'll have to start figuring out what preamp tubes I'll want, some real nice roaring, cutting high end overdrive, with a nice set of balls behind it... That sounds like my kinda tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I knew you had a 900. I got so wound up talking about my TSL that I turned your 900 into one. Sorry about that. Anyway, good luck.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got my amps back yesterday evening. I had company so I didn't try them out. I will be doing that very soon. Wish me luck. There are a lot of valuable tubes in both of these amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Any tube questions or problems? Please post here and one of our courteous staff members will get back to you...hopefully with some answers.


----------



## RiverRatt

First off, I'm not doing this to promote this seller. I've never bought from her (him?). I've also never seen anyone list 40 XF4 Mullards at one time. The sheer number of tubes is worth looking at (and buying if you have $4,100 lying around).

eBay Seller: 248tina40: Electronics, Business Industrial items on eBay.com


----------



## RiverRatt

Since I've opened this up again, here's a question for Marty or anyone. I've had these lying around forever (Marty, they came from the same amp as the four nuclear Tungsrams). I thought they bore a resemblance to RFT's. What do you think? If I had to guess, I'd say these are pre-1990.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> First off, I'm not doing this to promote this seller. I've never bought from her (him?). I've also never seen anyone list 40 XF4 Mullards at one time. The sheer number of tubes is worth looking at (and buying if you have $4,100 lying around).
> 
> eBay Seller: 248tina40: Electronics, Business Industrial items on eBay.com



Holy crap! I have used this seller before, but they have never had this massive of an inventory. It looks like they found the Mother Lode. (Their prices are a little on the high side, especially for xf4's.) They should be around $350 for a quad. Not $600.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Since I've opened this up again, here's a question for Marty or anyone. I've had these lying around forever (Marty, they came from the same amp as the four nuclear Tungsrams). I thought they bore a resemblance to RFT's. What do you think? If I had to guess, I'd say these are pre-1990.



Yes, these have the trademark (4) window openings in the plate. This was an RFT design. The single, top getter was their bread and butter. 

Do you have more than one? Four? Those should be nice tubes if they test out. That's what I'm running in my TSL122. Four brand new single getter RFT's. Really sweet sounding tubes. Lots of tight bottom and great mids and highs that don't rip your head off. Smooth, that's what I was looking for, or smokey. How about smooth and smokey? Ya, that's it.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, these have the trademark (4) window openings in the plate. This was an RFT design. The single, top getter was their bread and butter.
> 
> Do you have more than one? Four? Those should be nice tubes if they test out. That's what I'm running in my TSL122. Four brand new single getter RFT's. Really sweet sounding tubes. Lots of tight bottom and great mids and highs that don't rip your head off. Smooth, that's what I was looking for, or smokey. How about smooth and smokey? Ya, that's it.



You know I think thats how RFT's are. Them Germans seemed to have captured that smooth, smoky tone in those bottles. My EL34's are like that. My EL84's have that warm, fat smoky overdrive. Even the 12AX7's have a fat, warm crunch to them. I'd like to thank them Germans for mak'n such good sounding tubes that I get to use in my amps all these years later.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I have 4 of them. They say "Made in Russia" but I thought they looked similar to the RFT pics I've seen. Would Sovtek have re-labeled RFT's back then?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think the RFT's would have, "Made in E. Germany" on the base of the tube. It is possible that Sovtek made illegal copies of RFT tubes. This happened way more often than you might think and it is still going on today with fake Mullards and Telefunkens. The tubes are actually made in China.

You sort of have to look at world politics before 1990. It could be that the RFT's were shipped completely blank and then the, "Made in Russia" was applied. The tube looks like an RFT. It has the copper support post for the getter. (There are no side spacers on the top or bottom spacers like you commonly see with Russian tubes.) Just like American tubes where the bottle is wiped clean, it makes it tough to identify the maker unless some mark or P/N is etched in the glass. RFT did not use etching. I think they did this, because they relabeled tubes for dozens of other tube makers, including Telefunken. Telefunken did not make EL34's, they were all RFT's. In fact about 40 per cent of all Telefunken 12AX7's were made by RFT. Real Telefunkens have the diamond symbol in the bottom of the tube between the pins. So if you got a smoking deal on EBAY with some Telefunken's, they are probably RFT's.

If these are Russian copycat tubes, they were probably made at the Reflector plant long before New Sensor took control of it.


----------



## RiverRatt

They are labeled:
Sovtek 
EL34G 
Made in Russia

I'm like you - they look very RFT. They all have a distinct dimple in the top of the glass, and the plates look right. I know that there was a Sovtek EL34G that was Russian made, and from what I've been reading on the web, they were a cheap knockoff of a German tube. 

I took these tubes out of the Laney because somebody told me they were shite, but they sounded better than the EHEL34's I put in, and they sounded better on standby than the JJ E34L's that replaced the EH's.

I really hope they are RFT's. That would be sweet. The only thing I can add about the tubes is that the glass isn't uniform - it's smooth looking until the light hits it the right way, then you can see distorted areas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I will do some looking around in some other sources, but maybe the "G" stood for German? The bad thing about knock-offs is that they can look the same, but not sound the same. If you have used them and they sound good, that's better than playing them and having them sound like crap.

I'll see if I can find out any more info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This was taken from "The Gear Page."

I even remember when Sovtek advertised the old EL34G as sounding like a Siemens!!! ha ha ha ha! The old EL34G was harsh, piercing, bass-shy and very crunchy, like pissed off hornets in a paper bag. Better off in a rodded death metal amp than in a plexi.

EL34WXT/SOVTEK
The WXT is an upgraded Russian valve which replaces the EL34G & EL34G plus. The manufactures claim a unique grid block design which improves electron flow and gives the valve higher output, which they claim is 6% higher than the competition.

The valve has a rating of 25 watts plate dissipation and is a vast improvement on its predecessors. (Meaning the EL34G.)

I am using Svet EL34's. I used to have Sovtek EL34G's but find the mid's a bit glarey. The Svets have a smoother, richer sound, with more dynamic contrast.

Prior to knowing what was printed on the tube, I had hope for you. However, after doing some minimal research it becomes apparent that the EL34G was in fact a product of Sovtek and did not have very good reviews. However, as I said before, if they sound good to you in your amp that's all that matters.


----------



## RiverRatt

We can stop looking. I found out that RFT never made an EL34. We must have been dreaming.

Quote from an unnamed website:
_"Valvo of Germany (also owned by Philips) produced some EL34s in the 1960s. These apparently were similar in appearance to the Mullard Type IIs and had double halo getters. Siemens apparently did not actually make EL34s, but they did sell re-branded Xf2 Mullards with Siemens logos and boxes in the 1960s and 1970s. They also sold the ITT East German "slim" EL34s in the orange and blue boxes throughout the 1970s. According to Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio, neither Lorentz nor RFT ever made an EL34, or at least no one has ever seen one in the US recently."_

Isn't the amount of misinformation on the internet absolutely amazing?


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the checking - I've covered a lot of ground today, too. I'm going to put them in the DSL and give them a try tonight. I also read that they handle high-voltages well, and were used in high-voltage amps such as Laney, Hiwatt and Marshall. IIRC the plate voltage on the Laney ran around 435v. Not what I would call high.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> We can stop looking. I found out that RFT never made an EL34. We must have been dreaming.
> 
> Quote from an unnamed website:
> _"Valvo of Germany (also owned by Philips) produced some EL34s in the 1960s. These apparently were similar in appearance to the Mullard Type IIs and had double halo getters. Siemens apparently did not actually make EL34s, but they did sell re-branded Xf2 Mullards with Siemens logos and boxes in the 1960s and 1970s. They also sold the ITT East German "slim" EL34s in the orange and blue boxes throughout the 1970s. According to Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio, neither Lorentz nor RFT ever made an EL34, or at least no one has ever seen one in the US recently."_
> 
> Isn't the amount of misinformation on the internet absolutely amazing?



Did you see that link I posted about 3 or 4 pages back showing all the EL34's that RFT made? With this in mind, how can it be that RFT did not ever make an EL34. At this time, I will have to say it is bunk. I mean, I have read countless articles on this. Maybe they meant to say Lorentz and "Siemens." That would make sense and it could be a typo. I know that Joe and Josh looked at that link and it was in German, but there was some English and the pictures all showed RFT making tubes for Valvo, Lorentz, Siemens, Telefunken and many more. In fact, Telefunken did not make an EL34. They were relabeled RFT's. SO???

Could you please send me a link to the above article, as I want to do some checking on it. Something ain't right.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a site (in German) about RFT EL34 tubes and then it shows all the other tubes they made that were relabeled. There is quite a few of them.
> 
> (From one of my wholesalers)
> I did indeed receive the tubes without labels or logos (in sealed boxes of 100 pieces each), as they were manufactured for export and eventual rebranding by other tube companies or OEMs. Here is a site (in German) that shows a myriad of relabeled EL34s, all from the RFT plant and identical to the tubes you purchased: Die Geschichte der EL 34 - Seite 4 - in der DDR von RFT produzierte EL34
> 
> Marty



Man, I finally found it. Page 19. Good grief we sure have talked a lot about tubes on this here thread, haven't we? Do you guys remember this? I mean it is RFT all the way baby.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Marty, this might be a weird question...

How do you properly hold a tube? I have heard you should use cloth while holding it to not damage the internals. Is that true or just infatuation?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hi! There was a thread a while back discussing this topic and of course there were many different comments. Let me just say that it has been stated that skin oil can contaminate a tube. To me, that would have to mean skin oil after eating Lay's potato chips. Supposedly, skin oil can cause a difference in how the glass heats up evenly. I personally have never ran into this problem, but then again I try not to just use my fingers. I use one of those small square, yellow camera cloths to pull my tubes out. I think it is a good idea, especially on power tubes to keep the glass as clean as possible.

You should also try to avoid moving the tube while they are operating, or they have just been turned off. Again, especially on power tubes. Moving a hot tube can damage the filaments or some of the parts inside a tube. You won't know it until you fire them up again and then it's too late. 

You know, one of the old quotes I read a long time ago has some validity to it. It was, "Tubes were never designed to be used in a guitar amplifier." For the most part, a tube in a guitar amp, especially a combo, has a very harsh life. Tubes were meant to go in a hi fi amp or a radio sitting on a table. It's a good thing tubes are as tough as they are, or we wouldn't be seeing many tube amps around.

Anyway, I hope I answered your question. Please feel free to contact me for any tube related info.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hi! There was a thread a while back discussing this topic and of course there were many different comments. Let me just say that it has been stated that skin oil can contaminate a tube. To me, that would have to mean skin oil after eating Lay's potato chips. Supposedly, skin oil can cause a difference in how the glass heats up evenly. I personally have never ran into this problem, but then again I try not to just use my fingers. I use one of those small square, yellow camera cloths to pull my tubes out. I think it is a good idea, especially on power tubes to keep the glass as clean as possible.
> 
> You should also try to avoid moving the tube while they are operating, or they have just been turned off. Again, especially on power tubes. Moving a hot tube can damage the filaments or some of the parts inside a tube. You won't know it until you fire them up again and then it's too late.
> 
> You know, one of the old quotes I read a long time ago has some validity to it. It was, "Tubes were never designed to be used in a guitar amplifier." For the most part, a tube in a guitar amp, especially a combo, has a very harsh life. Tubes were meant to go in a hi fi amp or a radio sitting on a table. It's a good thing tubes are as tough as they are, or we wouldn't be seeing many tube amps around.
> 
> Anyway, I hope I answered your question. Please feel free to contact me for any tube related info.



If tubes weren't meant to go into a guitar amp, why did they use them in military devices that undergo alot of shock regularly. Yeahhhh.

Valves + Guitar amps = tonal orgasm.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> If tubes weren't meant to go into a guitar amp, why did they use them in military devices that undergo alot of shock regularly. Yeahhhh.
> 
> Valves + Guitar amps = tonal orgasm.



That's a good question. Most tubes made for the military were designated JAN, JRC or WA. These tubes were built to withstand a lot more shock than a regular tube. Some tube guru's say that they don't sound as good as a regular tube, because of how rigid they were built. I can understand what they are talking about and find some truth in what they say.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's a good question. Most tubes made for the military were designated JAN, JRC or WA. These tubes were built to withstand a lot more shock than a regular tube. Some tube guru's say that they don't sound as good as a regular tube, because of how rigid they were built. I can understand what they are talking about and find some truth in what they say.



Mm, imagine if during the 50's - 80's they made proper guitar specific tubes, you know, tubes that came in different... 'flavours' if you will, all with incredible strength for what they would have to put up with and high quality construction...

If only.


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn't the Russian vacuum tube industry continue when other countries stopped production mainly to supply tubes for MIG fighters?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Didn't the Russian vacuum tube industry continue when other countries stopped production mainly to supply tubes for MIG fighters?



That's absolutely correct. For the US Air Force it's the old B-52 that still uses 12AT7's, 12AU7's, 12AX7's and 6L6/5881's. Quite a while back in the thread I was posting about this with Joe (SolarBurn). I told him that the Air Force was sitting on a massive stash of tubes that any musician would drool over. I mean JAN Sylvania "Fat Boy" 6L6GC's for your Fender or Marshall? They have all the top brands in 12AX7's, including Black Plates. 

I was in the Air Force until 1980 and I worked in electronic repair. A lot of the equipment I worked on used the above tubes. They all come in white boxes with the manufacturing info printed in black ink. Every tube was guaranteed for a minimum of 5,000 hours. Some were rated for 10,000 hours.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's absolutely correct. For the US Air Force it's the old B-52 that still uses 12AT7's, 12AU7's, 12AX7's and 6L6/5881's. Quite a while back in the thread I was posting about this with Joe (SolarBurn). I told him that the Air Force was sitting on a massive stash of tubes that any musician would drool over. I mean JAN Sylvania "Fat Boy" 6L6GC's for your Fender or Marshall? They have all the top brands in 12AX7's, including Black Plates.
> 
> I was in the Air Force until 1980 and I worked in electronic repair. A lot of the equipment I worked on used the above tubes. They all come in white boxes with the manufacturing info printed in black ink. Every tube was guaranteed for a minimum of 5,000 hours. Some were rated for 10,000 hours.



o.0

I want someeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Those Fat Boy tubes sound nice, are they around outside the military?


----------



## ashfender150

i have read half of this thread lol..... i will finish later (got to page 14)

anyway... i have a ton of questions concerning a lot of things discussed in this thread...

1)can you list the different 12ax7 tubes from high gain to low gain (included aprrox gain levels to compare if possible)

2)whats the difference between EL34 vs KT77 or whatever it is

3)a 80mv is "hotter" than 90mv? why is this "hotter"?

i have a tsl100 head... thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> o.0
> 
> I want someeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Those Fat Boy tubes sound nice, are they around outside the military?



Yeah, so do I. A matched quad of NOS Fat Boy's went for $322 on EBAY. 

You still want some? I have six matched Fat Boy's in my Peavey MACE.

BTW-A Fat Boy is a tube with a wide glass bottle.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, so do I. A matched quad of NOS Fat Boy's went for $322 on EBAY.
> 
> You still want some? I have six matched Fat Boy's in my Peavey MACE.
> 
> BTW-A Fat Boy is a tube with a wide glass bottle.



Damnnn, $322.

And hell yeah I want some, but I'm gonna have my amp modded for EL34s sometime soon anyway. Then I'll have to get me some NOS mullards.. Mmmmm... Mullard.

I'll have to make sure I get a power conditioner/surge protector though, I'd hate to blow a quad of NOS Mullards =s


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ashfender150 said:


> i have read half of this thread lol..... i will finish later (got to page 14)
> 
> anyway... i have a ton of questions concerning a lot of things discussed in this thread...
> 
> *1)can you list the different 12ax7 tubes from high gain to low gain (included aprrox gain levels to compare if possible)*
> 
> 2)whats the difference between EL34 vs KT77 or whatever it is
> 
> 3)a 80mv is "hotter" than 90mv? why is this "hotter"?
> 
> i have a tsl100 head... thanks



Here's a simple, yet great, resource to answer question #1 that'll give some general idea where the different 12xx7 style tubes fall (gain-wise):

Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp​


----------



## MartyStrat54

ashfender150 said:


> i have read half of this thread lol..... i will finish later (got to page 14)
> 
> anyway... i have a ton of questions concerning a lot of things discussed in this thread...
> 
> 1)can you list the different 12ax7 tubes from high gain to low gain (included aprrox gain levels to compare if possible)
> 
> 2)whats the difference between EL34 vs KT77 or whatever it is
> 
> 3)a 80mv is "hotter" than 90mv? why is this "hotter"?
> 
> i have a tsl100 head... thanks



Hello. Welcome. The gain on a tube is something you have to measure on each tube with a tube tester. Two identical tubes can have different gain factors. Again, the gain is something that has to be measured.

A KT77 is a direct replacement for an EL34. It has more of a 6L6 tone to it. It will bias correctly in your TSL100. 

80mV and 90mV are in regard to the bias voltage on the power tubes. The bias "voltage" needs to be set at a certain operating point, or else the power tubes will run cold or too hot. If the bias is set to hot, the power tube will red plate and ruin the tube. Too cold and the amp sounds like crap. Proper bias is one of the most important settings on your Marshall amp.

If you have any other question, please feel free to post here.


----------



## ashfender150

thanks for the info...

so what exactly makes a KT77 different from a EL34 in general terms..? i have only heard EL34s and i wouldnt know how to compare it to a 6L6..


and also...... i like evh, david gilmour, and jimmy page.... put them in a blender and thats what i want to play/sound like.... (or atleast what i aim for) and so with that said ...... would it be better to put a higher gain tube in V1 and then lower in V2.... or the other way around... it was asked earlier in the thread from someone else but i'm still confused on the different possibilities between low gain in v1 paired with high gain in v2.. VS vice versa..

thanks


----------



## rockinr0ll

D Day is tomorrow!

12 hours from now I'm going to receive the 5751 tube. I can't wait to tell you all how it turns out. Keep checking to get my follow up of how everything goes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ashfender150 said:


> thanks for the info...
> 
> so what exactly makes a KT77 different from a EL34 in general terms..? i have only heard EL34s and i wouldnt know how to compare it to a 6L6..
> 
> 
> and also...... i like evh, david gilmour, and jimmy page.... put them in a blender and thats what i want to play/sound like.... (or atleast what i aim for) and so with that said ...... would it be better to put a higher gain tube in V1 and then lower in V2.... or the other way around... it was asked earlier in the thread from someone else but i'm still confused on the different possibilities between low gain in v1 paired with high gain in v2.. VS vice versa..
> 
> thanks



The EL34 and the KT77 differ in design and physical construction. The EL34 was introduced in 1953 by Mullard. The "E" stands for 6.3V heaters and the "L" stands for power beam tetrode. The KT77 was invented by Marconi-Osram Valve and is a "Kinkless Tetrode" power tube. The "kink" refers to how electrons stream inside the tube. The KT77 sounds will appear to have more clean headroom. It has to be pushed harder to distort. This type of tube is popular with classic rockers and nu metal players. You have more experience with the EL34, so all I will add is that it is a more crunchy, compressed sounding tube when it is driven hard.

In the TSL, it is best to use a medium gain tube in V1 and a high gain tube in V2. Through testing we have found that this gives you a really nice clean channel and also a really rocking yellow and red channels.

With the artists you mentioned I would probably suggest that you go with a little bit hotter tube in V1. This is because you can sacrifice a little of the clean for more total gain and this equals more natural sustain from the amp. With Gilmour you most certainly will want as much sustain as possible.


----------



## thrawn86

Marty.....so you're saying that each tube in the power tubes has a different gain, and can be strategically placed in the sockets to adjust the sound of the amp? I did not know this. How do you test the Gain? Is it a multimeter test or other? I am running EL84's, so is this still applicable? I am somewhat of a newbie at this, but it sounds like something I might like to tinker with if possible.


----------



## Alex_TE

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I found those Rusky 84's but none of them are matched. Can buy them for $10 a single tube:
> 
> Reflektor 6P14P-EB (EV) - 1980s MINT NOS NIB Russian Military aka EL84M Tubes
> 
> So far they are my Favorite all arounder for the NT. Great cleans, nice crunch when they break up and tons of headroom. They've taken some high volume abuse too and keep coming back for more. Just wished TM had some matched sets.
> 
> Vox would do good to put the Russian NOS stalk in the NT if they could. I bet there would be alot more players giv'n the thumbs up on the amp. The Sovtecs had alot of headroom but the crunch was sharp and they are much stiffer in feel. Then the EH's in the preamp to my ears accentuated the toppiness even more.
> 
> I want to try a pair of the current Russian tubes and compare them to the NOS. If they are anything like them I will have a great pair of 84's to go to.



Living in Russia i have access and tried many kinds of 6p14p.

6p14p regular - don't use them at > 300v, also they don't like fixed bias and can redplate with it. Only use cathode bias for them. Clean sound is average, but crunch is OK. Reliability is average.

6p14p-k clean sound is pretty good, more headroom and more bassy, but also same limitations with voltage and fixed bias. Overdrive very late and not very pleasant. Reliability is average.

6p14p-ev clean sound is nice, but i never liked them overdriven, find it too compreesed, regular 6p14p sounds better overdriven. they have great reliability and can easily take 400v voltage and never saw them redplated.

Also i can recommend to use tubes made between 196x-197x, much better quality. Since 198x there are many crap of them. And current Sovtek is even more crappy.

6p14p works good for audio amps, as for guitar i like current JJ more and of course NOS EL84.


EDIT:
Look, 6p14p can be also RFT tubes. Left EL84 labeled RFT, right 6p14p labeled RFT. Everything else is the same.


----------



## rockinr0ll

NOS JAN Phillips 5751 arrived today!

This baby is no joke! Very low noise and great sound! This baby tamed my AVT and makes it sound way better then I ever could have imagined. Get the 5751!


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Marty.....so you're saying that each tube in the power tubes has a different gain, and can be strategically placed in the sockets to adjust the sound of the amp? I did not know this. How do you test the Gain? Is it a multimeter test or other? I am running EL84's, so is this still applicable? I am somewhat of a newbie at this, but it sounds like something I might like to tinker with if possible.



Preamp tubes can be moved to make tone/gain differences. Not power tubes.

Power tubes should be matched no greater than a 5 per cent deviation. Most tube companies sell 3 per cent matched tubes. This is somewhat important when you have a fixed bias amp and you have to set the bias at a certain operating point. Some people run slightly mismatched tubes and this can be done at the cost of shorter tube life.

You need a tube tester to test tubes. The early ones are cheesy. You want to get access to a dynamic mutual conductance tester. It will measure the transconductance (mhos) of the tube. Transconductance is the opposite of resistance (ohms). The higher the transconductance reading the stronger the tube is. Tube tester read differently depending on the brand. However, let's say you have six power tubes that measure 84, 88, 90, 87, 83 and 89. You need four tubes for your amp. You would take the 87 and 88 for one pair and the 89 and 90 for the second pair. These would bias up nicely in your amp. 

The same holds true for 12AX7's. If you have a tube that reads 105 and one the reads 88, there is a lot of difference in the total gain of the tube. This is why we say take a medium gain and put it in V1 and a high gain and put it in V2. This works well in most applications, but not all. Some people's playing styles will dictate what sort of tubes they need.

I do want to say that Marshall amps like a 201/401 have the power tubes spaced closely together and not all brands will fit in a 201/401. Make sure that your amp has ample spacing to swap different tubes. Also, modern EL84's are such that they just barely work in a modern amp. This is to include how much plate voltage a current EL84 can handle. I would suggest that you try and get yourself some used or NOS tubes like RCA or Sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the info ALEX TE. Direct from Russia. Glad to have you on board.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> NOS JAN Phillips 5751 arrived today!
> 
> This baby is no joke! Very low noise and great sound! This baby tamed my AVT and makes it sound way better then I ever could have imagined. Get the 5751!


----------



## solarburn

Alex_TE said:


> Living in Russia i have access and tried many kinds of 6p14p.
> 
> 6p14p regular - don't use them at > 300v, also they don't like fixed bias and can redplate with it. Only use cathode bias for them. Clean sound is average, but crunch is OK. Reliability is average.
> 
> 6p14p-k clean sound is pretty good, more headroom and more bassy, but also same limitations with voltage and fixed bias. Overdrive very late and not very pleasant. Reliability is average.
> 
> 6p14p-ev clean sound is nice, but i never liked them overdriven, find it too compreesed, regular 6p14p sounds better overdriven. they have great reliability and can easily take 400v voltage and never saw them redplated.
> 
> Also i can recommend to use tubes made between 196x-197x, much better quality. Since 198x there are many crap of them. And current Sovtek is even more crappy.
> 
> 6p14p works good for audio amps, as for guitar i like current JJ more and of course NOS EL84.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> Look, 6p14p can be also RFT tubes. Left EL84 labeled RFT, right 6p14p labeled RFT. Everything else is the same.



I found the JJ's were just average bordering on dull in the Night Train and the stock Sovtec just stiff and a lil' shrill. Overdriven the Sovtec way to bright and sterile. The Night Train is Cathode biased.

The Russian 6p14p tubes I have(NOS from the 60's)were rounder, richer and the overdrive much better than the other 2 above. Lots of rich clean headroom. Still though I was looking to improve the gain and warm it up with a combination of NOS 12AX7's and finding a warm fat power tube. I still like the Russian tubes paired with NOS AX7's. They had a richness to them I enjoy regardless.

So I had a Jan Phillips 12AX7WA and a RFT 12AX7 in the preamp. The JP offers creamy overdrive and the RFT is all about warming a preamp up to some nice low mid crunch. I found a pair of RFT EL84's(1966-1970)and popped them in. That really lit this amp up. Still have plenty of clean headroom but I was getting warmer and fatter overdrive which the NT really needs IMO. This really translates over when played through my 412 of Greenbacks at volume.

This makes a real good tube complement for blues and rock which I bought the amp for. So I found what I was looking for and pushed with a transparent OD pedal it delivers great great tones.

I have the Russian 6p14p's NOS in back up and by the way they are from the 60's. The pic of those other 6p14p's are years later(1980's). I didn't realize Marty had given me a set from the 60's. They are still a fav of mine in the NT and I give them a thumbs up. I haven't tried any current 6p14p's.


----------



## Alex_TE

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for the info ALEX TE. Direct from Russia. Glad to have you on board.




Thanks Marty!


----------



## Alex_TE

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I found the JJ's were just average bordering on dull in the Night Train and the stock Sovtec just stiff and a lil' shrill. Overdriven the Sovtec way to bright and sterile. The Night Train is Cathode biased.
> 
> The Russian 6p14p tubes I have(NOS from the 60's)were rounder, richer and the overdrive much better than the other 2 above. Lots of rich clean headroom. Still though I was looking to improve the gain and warm it up with a combination of NOS 12AX7's and finding a warm fat power tube. I still like the Russian tubes paired with NOS AX7's. They had a richness to them I enjoy regardless.
> 
> So I had a Jan Phillips 12AX7WA and a RFT 12AX7 in the preamp. The JP offers creamy overdrive and the RFT is all about warming a preamp up to some nice low mid crunch. I found a pair of RFT EL84's(1966-1970)and popped them in. That really lit this amp up. Still have plenty of clean headroom but I was getting warmer and fatter overdrive which the NT really needs IMO. This really translates over when played through my 412 of Greenbacks at volume.
> 
> This makes a real good tube complement for blues and rock which I bought the amp for. So I found what I was looking for and pushed with a transparent OD pedal it delivers great great tones.
> 
> I have the Russian 6p14p's NOS in back up and by the way they are from the 60's. The pic of those other 6p14p's are years later(1980's). I didn't realize Marty had given me a set from the 60's. They are still a fav of mine in the NT and I give them a thumbs up. I haven't tried any current 6p14p's.



Of course sound preferences is personal taste. From russian tubes for more blues and classic rock sound i can recommend to try 6p1p-ev. They give sound between 6v6 and 6p14p, like 6v6 with 6p14p bite. You need only to change bias resistor (340 ohm for class A) and also to resolder some pins. This is 5-10 minutes to work and amp can sound different. 
6p18p and 6p43p-e only change bias resistor, pins are same with 6p14p, but gives more linear response, more balanced sound. also they can easily take 300-320v anode voltage (according to specs 250v, but many people tested them with more then 300 and everything was ok).
For preamp i always was in love with ecc83 RFT for EL84 amp.


As for the preamp tubes for EL34 Marshall, i found for myself great combination for TSL60. 

V1-rft ecc83
V2-tesla ecc803s
V3-V4-mazda 12ax7a/ecc83
with tesla nos power tubes (thanks Marthy for identifying them) 

Almost fender like clean channel. Crunch is basically classic 70's rock sound, just slight brighter, lead channel is also very good, but i almost never use it, i prefer to live in crunch channel. Tested Fender Strat with SSL-1 pickups, Gibson Les Paul 490R/498T and ESP Horizon SH-1'59/SH-4 JB. Cab is 1960BC.
Absolutely no harshness and shrill of stock TSL even with lower volume.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, that's a sweet lineup of tubes in your TSL! You certainly have the "European" brands. Those French Mazda's are supposed to be nice. Most of us just got some RFT's. I've had some in the past, but never did much testing on them sound wise.

In my TSL's I have a medium gain 7025 (usually RCA Gray Plate) in V1 and then an Amperex or Mullard high gain in V2. Then for V3 and V4 I run Sylvania Gray Plates.

Now on some applications, we go with either a medium 7025 or a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and a high gain Black Plate in V2. This changes the overall tonal qualities of the amp. However, as I said, most of us use the 7025, because it makes for a really clean sound on the green channel. The high gain in V2 makes the yellow and red channels sound exceptional.

I must say that you nailed the right combination for your amp with the tubes you have. Way to go!


----------



## solarburn

Alex_TE said:


> Of course sound preferences is personal taste. From russian tubes for more blues and classic rock sound i can recommend to try 6p1p-ev. They give sound between 6v6 and 6p14p, like 6v6 with 6p14p bite. You need only to change bias resistor (340 ohm for class A) and also to resolder some pins. This is 5-10 minutes to work and amp can sound different.
> 6p18p and 6p43p-e only change bias resistor, pins are same with 6p14p, but gives more linear response, more balanced sound. also they can easily take 300-320v anode voltage (according to specs 250v, but many people tested them with more then 300 and everything was ok).
> For preamp i always was in love with ecc83 RFT for EL84 amp.
> 
> 
> As for the preamp tubes for EL34 Marshall, i found for myself great combination for TSL60.
> 
> V1-rft ecc83
> V2-tesla ecc803s
> V3-V4-mazda 12ax7a/ecc83
> with tesla nos power tubes (thanks Marthy for identifying them)
> 
> Almost fender like clean channel. Crunch is basically classic 70's rock sound, just slight brighter, lead channel is also very good, but i almost never use it, i prefer to live in crunch channel. Tested Fender Strat with SSL-1 pickups, Gibson Les Paul 490R/498T and ESP Horizon SH-1'59/SH-4 JB. Cab is 1960BC.
> Absolutely no harshness and shrill of stock TSL even with lower volume.



Thanks for the input Alex. I won't go so far as to solder or change bias resisters but the tube changes seems to have done what I need. If I was good with a solder I might try more things. My experience is a bit limited hehe.

The RFT 12AX7 are one of my favorite as well especially in the Marshall. I bought a few extra to have on hand for other amps or whenever I burn em' out. I also have Mullard, Raytheon BP's and Jan Phillips 12AX7WA which sounds pretty good in V1 of the DSL. The others will go in V2 or I will move a 7025 from V1 to V2 depending on how much crunch I want on the green channel and then a high gainer can go in V1. I find whatever NOS tube I use in V3 and the PI really has little impact on the overall preamp tone. I seem to notice the PI position differ more with tube changes than V3. The diff is little though.


----------



## BCnSTL

Preamp Tubes V1, V2, V3 - what does that denote? 

The preamp tubes in my Haze 15 aren't labeled. The left-most one has a shield, the other 2 don't - I'm wondering which tube is V1 etc.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BCnSTL said:


> Preamp Tubes V1, V2, V3 - what does that denote?
> 
> The preamp tubes in my Haze 15 aren't labeled. The left-most one has a shield, the other 2 don't - I'm wondering which tube is V1 etc.



The one with a shield is V1 and it is your gain tube.

The middle one is your tone stack, V2.

The last one is your phase inverter, V3.

In a bigger Marshall with four preamp tubes, you have another 12AX7 added for more gain. Therefore V1 and V2 are gain tubes, V3 is the tone stack and V4 is the PI. 

Each 12AX7 has two separate circuits inside the tube. Therefore, you have two stages of gain in V1.

How do you like the HAZE 15 so far?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh Lord, I'm wrong!!!:eek2::eek2:

And to think I said they weren't making any tubes in the USA. Boy, was I way off on that.

USA:


Richardson Electronics, LaFox, IL:
Makes large power tubes and specialized types. Also makes
a 300B, 845 and 50 sold under the Cetron brand, as well as a
KT88 sold under the National brand. Richardson
has large quantities of tooling obtained from old American
tube factories when they shut down. Also makes some larger
transmitting and HV types.


Westrex Corporation, Kansas City MO (alleged):
Makes the reissued Western Electric 300B. Claims to be
developing a KT88, 212E, 274A and other old WE types
for future manufacture.
Company office is in Atlanta, GA. This firm is independent
of AT&T Corporation and has licensed the brandnames from
AT&T.


MU, Oceanside, CA:
Small contract factory, makes occasional runs of unusual
glass and metal-ceramic tubes for military use. Still makes
some of the old "Bendix Red Bank" tubes, such as the 6094 and
6384, in occasional lots.


Fritztronics, Randolph MA:
Rebuilds klystrons and other large power tubes. Claimed to
be in a cooperative agreement with Groove Tubes to manufacture
an exact copy of the original RCA "black plate" 6L6GC.


Triton Services ETD, Gaithersburg MD:
Makes some Eimac and Litton glass power types, using equipment
from the original manufacturers.

Next time I'll do a little research before I go yakking that there "ain't any tube making going on in the USA." I'm especially interested in the Fritztronic's deal to make exact copies of RCA Black Plate 6L6GC's. Wow!:cool2:


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh Lord, I'm wrong!!!:eek2::eek2:
> 
> And to think I said they weren't making any tubes in the USA. Boy, was I way off on that.
> 
> USA:
> 
> 
> Richardson Electronics, LaFox, IL:
> Makes large power tubes and specialized types. Also makes
> a 300B, 845 and 50 sold under the Cetron brand, as well as a
> KT88 sold under the National brand. Richardson
> has large quantities of tooling obtained from old American
> tube factories when they shut down. Also makes some larger
> transmitting and HV types.
> 
> 
> Westrex Corporation, Kansas City MO (alleged):
> Makes the reissued Western Electric 300B. Claims to be
> developing a KT88, 212E, 274A and other old WE types
> for future manufacture.
> Company office is in Atlanta, GA. This firm is independent
> of AT&T Corporation and has licensed the brandnames from
> AT&T.
> 
> 
> MU, Oceanside, CA:
> Small contract factory, makes occasional runs of unusual
> glass and metal-ceramic tubes for military use. Still makes
> some of the old "Bendix Red Bank" tubes, such as the 6094 and
> 6384, in occasional lots.
> 
> 
> Fritztronics, Randolph MA:
> Rebuilds klystrons and other large power tubes. Claimed to
> be in a cooperative agreement with Groove Tubes to manufacture
> an exact copy of the original RCA "black plate" 6L6GC.
> 
> 
> Triton Services ETD, Gaithersburg MD:
> Makes some Eimac and Litton glass power types, using equipment
> from the original manufacturers.
> 
> Next time I'll do a little research before I go yakking that there "ain't any tube making going on in the USA." I'm especially interested in the Fritztronic's deal to make exact copies of RCA Black Plate 6L6GC's. Wow!:cool2:



Are they current production, or old production?

Also, know anything about tubes being produced in Australia, I have a few old tubes that say Made in Australia on them.


----------



## solarburn

Looks like Tech Tube is working on the microphony problem:

Tech Tubes customer service can't be faulted. Us early adopters seem to be being looked after like we were made of gold... witness their latest email to me.....

Hi Stuart,

Derek has asked me to send you 1 tube that has improvements for microphony so can you please try it, and give us some feedback. We think we have made some progress, but what we need now is some real world testing. I hear you know your stuff so we appreciate your opinions. You should receive them approx Monday or Tuesday -

Enjoy!

Many thanks,

Emma
Techtube Sales and Marketing Team


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I found the JJ's were just average bordering on dull in the Night Train and the stock Sovtec just stiff and a lil' shrill. Overdriven the Sovtec way to bright and sterile. The Night Train is Cathode biased.



I bought a couple of JJ EL84's awhile back, and I put one in my little Blackheart 5 watt. I'd been using a Sylvania 6BQ5. I wasn't expecting much, as the JJ E34L's I tried in the big amp were the most sterile, un-musical tube I've ever used, but the little EL84 impressed me. I got a very similar tone as with the Sylvania, but with more headroom. I used it on a gig where I didn't need a lot of volume and it did really well. I was driving it pretty hard, which might have helped. For some reason, these little amps don't seem to care what tubes you're running - they sound good with just about anything. You'd think with only two tubes, it would really change the character of the amp to switch them out.

Since I'm rambling, I hooked the BH5H up alongside the Marshall the other day, and the two didn't compliment each other well. It was almost like having a slight delay on the Marshall - the Blackheart was so much quicker to respond. I'd never noticed that before.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I bought a couple of JJ EL84's awhile back, and I put one in my little Blackheart 5 watt. I'd been using a Sylvania 6BQ5. I wasn't expecting much, as the JJ E34L's I tried in the big amp were the most sterile, un-musical tube I've ever used, but the little EL84 impressed me. I got a very similar tone as with the Sylvania, but with more headroom. I used it on a gig where I didn't need a lot of volume and it did really well. I was driving it pretty hard, which might have helped. For some reason, these little amps don't seem to care what tubes you're running - they sound good with just about anything. You'd think with only two tubes, it would really change the character of the amp to switch them out.
> 
> Since I'm rambling, I hooked the BH5H up alongside the Marshall the other day, and the two didn't compliment each other well. It was almost like having a slight delay on the Marshall - the Blackheart was so much quicker to respond. I'd never noticed that before.



The Epiphone Valve Jr I had did real good with the JJ EL84 in it so I thought it would in the NT. Not so. It was just average in it. Just didn't translate the same. Different circuits same tubes although we all know even the same tubes can sound different.

I need to run mine together sometime and see how they fit together. So you didn't like the 34L's huh. I hear mixed reviews on this EL34. Some love them and just as many don't. This is what I have in the NT:

EL84 6BQ5 E84L 7189 CV2975 6pi14pi-ev EL84M 7320

If they didn't cost so much I'd get a couple more. Prolly will down the road. They are smoky when overdriven. Very nice.


----------



## RiverRatt

Eberybody talks about the bottom end on the E34L's. The ones I tried were all shrill upper mids and very thin sounding. I biased them cold, hot, lukewarm, I just couldn't dial them in. I left them in the amp when I sold it. Good riddance.


----------



## Alex_TE

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, that's a sweet lineup of tubes in your TSL! You certainly have the "European" brands. Those French Mazda's are supposed to be nice. Most of us just got some RFT's. I've had some in the past, but never did much testing on them sound wise.
> 
> In my TSL's I have a medium gain 7025 (usually RCA Gray Plate) in V1 and then an Amperex or Mullard high gain in V2. Then for V3 and V4 I run Sylvania Gray Plates.
> 
> Now on some applications, we go with either a medium 7025 or a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and a high gain Black Plate in V2. This changes the overall tonal qualities of the amp. However, as I said, most of us use the 7025, because it makes for a really clean sound on the green channel. The high gain in V2 makes the yellow and red channels sound exceptional.
> 
> I must say that you nailed the right combination for your amp with the tubes you have. Way to go!



I love how amp sounds now with them! Well, European tubes are more easy to find here and those Mazdas cost me like 4xRFT=1xMazda price. I read that this is great tube and decided to try them. If you have a chance i recommend you to try it. But i never tried American NOS tubes, price is very big and hard to find. I found 2 Sylvania 12au7 here. Do you have any experience with them? Are they too low in gain gain?

My good supplier told me that he has several Matsushita 12ax7 tubes, i think that i'll buy some of them. Also never tried Japanese ones.

I would like also to try 7025.

NOS tubes are so great!


----------



## Alex_TE

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Thanks for the input Alex. I won't go so far as to solder or change bias resisters but the tube changes seems to have done what I need. If I was good with a solder I might try more things. My experience is a bit limited hehe.
> 
> The RFT 12AX7 are one of my favorite as well especially in the Marshall. I bought a few extra to have on hand for other amps or whenever I burn em' out. I also have Mullard, Raytheon BP's and Jan Phillips 12AX7WA which sounds pretty good in V1 of the DSL. The others will go in V2 or I will move a 7025 from V1 to V2 depending on how much crunch I want on the green channel and then a high gainer can go in V1. I find whatever NOS tube I use in V3 and the PI really has little impact on the overall preamp tone. I seem to notice the PI position differ more with tube changes than V3. The diff is little though.



Well, as for myself i also didn't want to solder something, but interest was much stronger and i started it 

So, about V3 tube...this is cathode follower...i'll try to experiment with it also. Maybe to use JJ or Sovtek there and to keep NOS for V1 and V2? 
As for PI, here is interesting thing. I don't care balanced it or not, because unbalanced ones can give some nice harmonics. But of course power tubes better to use matched. I tried not matched power tubes, this only give excessive hum to an amp.


----------



## MajorNut1967

My good supplier told me that he has several Matsushita 12ax7 tubes, i think that i'll buy some of them. Also never tried Japanese ones.

I would like also to try 7025.

NOS tubes are so great! [/quote]

If you can get real Japanese tubes they are great! The Toshiba 6L6-GC is a spot on copy of an RCA Black Plate. The Matsushita 6CA7 is incredible. Tokyo Denki, NEC made great 7025 copies.


----------



## solarburn

Alex_TE said:


> Well, as for myself i also didn't want to solder something, but interest was much stronger and i started it
> 
> So, about V3 tube...this is cathode follower...i'll try to experiment with it also. Maybe to use JJ or Sovtek there and to keep NOS for V1 and V2?
> As for PI, here is interesting thing. I don't care balanced it or not, because unbalanced ones can give some nice harmonics. But of course power tubes better to use matched. I tried not matched power tubes, this only give excessive hum to an amp.



Yeah I gave up on using balanced tubes in the PI too. Power tubes for sure. Don't use a Sovtec LPS in the cathode follower. It won't handle the current. I think the LPS sounds great in the PI which it was pretty much designed for. I don't like any other Sovtec preamp tubes. Yeah V3 to me didn't make much of a change even from a Raytheon BP to a AT7 BP. Doesn't seem to be a crucial slot for tone enhancement. My ears could be mashed potatoes though...


----------



## Alex_TE

MajorNut1967 said:


> My good supplier told me that he has several Matsushita 12ax7 tubes, i think that i'll buy some of them. Also never tried Japanese ones.
> 
> I would like also to try 7025.
> 
> NOS tubes are so great!
> 
> If you can get real Japanese tubes they are great! The Toshiba 6L6-GC is a spot on copy of an RCA Black Plate. The Matsushita 6CA7 is incredible. Tokyo Denki, NEC made great 7025 copies.



Thanks! I'll definately buy those 12ax7's and i'll post feeback here.


----------



## Alex_TE

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I gave up on using balanced tubes in the PI too. Power tubes for sure. Don't use a Sovtec LPS in the cathode follower. It won't handle the current. I think the LPS sounds great in the PI which it was pretty much designed for. I don't like any other Sovtec preamp tubes. Yeah V3 to me didn't make much of a change even from a Raytheon BP to a AT7 BP. Doesn't seem to be a crucial slot for tone enhancement. My ears could be mashed potatoes though...



I also don't like Sovtek tone, harsh to me. Yes, and also 12ax7eh doesn't work in V3, same problem. From modern i have now 12ax7eh, 12ax7wc, JJ ecc83s and stock Marshall labeled Chinese ecc83. I'll try them in V3 except EH. As for LPS, i didn't still try them. Always nice to save good NOS tube with keeping tone great.


----------



## solarburn

Alex_TE said:


> I also don't like Sovtek tone, harsh to me. Yes, and also 12ax7eh doesn't work in V3, same problem. From modern i have now 12ax7eh, 12ax7wc, JJ ecc83s and stock Marshall labeled Chinese ecc83. I'll try them in V3 except EH. As for LPS, i didn't still try them. Always nice to save good NOS tube with keeping tone great.



I find NOS best too but the LPS is no slouch in the PI. I agree with Sovtec being harsh and sterile also. I have put Chinese AC5's which are current production 7025's in my Marshall and they sounded good for high gain stuff. Nice bite, not harsh or sterile. Now they have AC7's 7025's that are newer and getting good reviews in high gain amps. I don't like the EH's due to their brightness. Don't need that in my DSL. Its bright enough. 

I actually like the CP Tung Sol and Mullard RI but I hear bad things about their durability. Tone was good though in V1 and V2. I haven't put enough time on mine to say since Marty hooked me up with some NOS goodies. I've been roll'n them ever since and I've got a nice bunch to choose from hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alex_TE said:


> I love how amp sounds now with them! Well, European tubes are more easy to find here and those Mazdas cost me like 4xRFT=1xMazda price. I read that this is great tube and decided to try them. If you have a chance i recommend you to try it. But i never tried American NOS tubes, price is very big and hard to find. I found 2 Sylvania 12au7 here. Do you have any experience with them? Are they too low in gain gain?
> 
> My good supplier told me that he has several Matsushita 12ax7 tubes, i think that i'll buy some of them. Also never tried Japanese ones.
> 
> I would like also to try 7025.
> 
> NOS tubes are so great!



Yeah Alex, the 12AU7 won't work well in a high gain Marshall amp. If you put one in the amp it would sound like crap. The lowest gain tube I would use is a 12AT7, either in V1 or V4 (in the TSL). A 12AT7 will give you a very nice clean channel, but your lead channel will need to be tweaked to get a high gain sound. A 12AT7 in your V4 (PI) is not a problem. These tend to work well as a PI tube.

The Matsushita 12AX7 tubes are worth grabbing. Very high quality and built to American specifications. NEC tubes are very good as well. NEC made a lot of special 12AX7's that came out a few years before the US tube companies stopped production. NEC took over and made some of these tubes for about two years. They are still hard to find, but they are out there. These tubes are quiet like a 7025 but have slightly different internal electronic specifications. The tubes are 12AD7, 12DT7 and 12DM7. There are others, but I believe that NEC only made these three. Out of all my tubes, I only have two, 12AD7's and one, 12DM7. All made by NEC. I've tried them and they work great, but they are rare so I keep them in a box.

The PI tube does not have to be balanced to sound good. Also, you do want your best two tubes in V1 and V2, preferably with the higher gain tube in V2. You can get by with certain brands of current production in V3 and V4. The V3 circuit generates some higher plate voltages and some brands of CP tubes have been failing.

Since you are using the Mazda's there, you won't have a problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Eberybody talks about the bottom end on the E34L's. The ones I tried were all shrill upper mids and very thin sounding. I biased them cold, hot, lukewarm, I just couldn't dial them in. I left them in the amp when I sold it. Good riddance.



That's good to know. They advertise these as the tube that has a lot of low end and mids. Of course, I'm not a JJ fan. I can't believe how many people pick them simply because they are seventeen dollars cheaper than a good brand.

******************************

This is the very latest edition of JJ's EL34 tube, the E34L.

From our review of this EL34 tube: "The sound is well balanced with tight bass response and great mids. As with many of the Eastern European tubes, mechanical noise is an issue if used in high power combo style amps. In a stereo system or remote head, these should provide a good tonal balance and service life."

It's comforting to know that they are up front about the mechanical noise. They also are indicating that use in a combo versus a head will affect tube life.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's good to know. They advertise these as the tube that has a lot of low end and mids. Of course, I'm not a JJ fan. I can't believe how many people pick them simply because they are seventeen dollars cheaper than a good brand.
> 
> ******************************
> 
> This is the very latest edition of JJ's EL34 tube, the E34L.
> 
> From our review of this EL34 tube: "The sound is well balanced with tight bass response and great mids. As with many of the Eastern European tubes, mechanical noise is an issue if used in high power combo style amps. In a stereo system or remote head, these should provide a good tonal balance and service life."
> 
> It's comforting to know that they are up front about the mechanical noise. They also are indicating that use in a combo versus a head will affect tube life.



I actually ordered a pair there sitting in my drawer. Haven't tried them yet but a few guys were touting them in there Marshalls. I actually liked the sound of the KT-77's. There sitting in my drawer too hehe. 

Just thought I would find out myself and yeah they are alot cheaper in price. I don't mind trying tubes when I have great ones to fall back on if they are shiat. We will see when I get around to it. Durability has been a prob with JJ power tubes. Bit of a crap shoot.


----------



## RiverRatt

It sounds like JJ's are very hit or miss. I've never tried one of their preamp tubes, as the reviews about them are all over the place, too. I wonder if buying from a supplier that hand-picks them, like Eurotubes, would yield better results? I did get my E34L's from a well-known eBay white-boxer.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It sounds like JJ's are very hit or miss. I've never tried one of their preamp tubes, as the reviews about them are all over the place, too. I wonder if buying from a supplier that hand-picks them, like Eurotubes, would yield better results? I did get my E34L's from a well-known eBay white-boxer.



Thats where I got mine. I think even Doug's tubes has stated the JJ's can be a crap shoot and he tests them as well as burns them in proper. I know Voodoo amps told me the same thing about JJ power tubes when they had my amp. I had the KT-77's in it then and they pretty much told me JJ's die quickly. A few other amp makers like Doug Roccaforte I've read at HCAF have found the same thing to be true with the JJ's. They die quick. I've already got mine so I'm gonna try them soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, it's like I have already said. A CP tube can be burned in. During the initial burn in, a large percentage of the tubes fail. After burn in, it is still a "crap shoot" that the tube will work as it should. I mean if you burn in CP tubes for 30 hours and 55 per cent of the tubes fail. How many more will fail if you burn them in for 90 hours? 

Also, they burn power tubes in way below an NOS rating. Example, any NOS EL34 had to be able to take 800V on the plates. For test purposes, NOS tubes were burned in at 600V. Do you think a JJ E34L is burned in at 600V?

The bottom line is there are only a couple of CP 34 tubes I would use if I had to and these tubes are just built better. I doubt if they have 600V put to them for 30 hours.

Edit: I wanted to add that 600V is the max voltage used, because going above this on an octal based tube you run the risk of arcing. (See KT88's. They were made from a tube that took 1200V on the plates, but the high voltage came into the tube via a metal pin on the top of the tube. This prevented arcing.)


----------



## Jesstaa

RiverRatt said:


> It sounds like JJ's are very hit or miss. I've never tried one of their preamp tubes, as the reviews about them are all over the place, too. I wonder if buying from a supplier that hand-picks them, like Eurotubes, would yield better results? I did get my E34L's from a well-known eBay white-boxer.



The ECC83's I have in my amp are kinda noisy, I can hear a small difference between when I have a JJ in and when I don't, alright tone, livens it up a little, but the noise is annoying, and they're too dark.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> The ECC83's I have in my amp are kinda noisy, I can hear a small difference between when I have a JJ in and when I don't, alright tone, livens it up a little, but the noise is annoying, and they're too dark.



Man, you really need a couple of Raytheon Black Plates for your amp. A 24-24 in V1 and a 29-29 in V2. Just what the doctor ordered.


----------



## solarburn

Doctor! Doctor! Give me the news I got uh bad case of Black Plate blues...I gotta bad case uh luuuuuuuv'n those tubezzz!

Hey nice tubez. Thats what she said...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Holy Cow! Eddie Money is in da house! Doctor, doctor give me the news. I need some black plates to play my blues. Doctor, doctor, this ain't no joke. That black plate sound really makes me smoke. Aaaahhhhh Uuuhh!


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, you really need a couple of Raytheon Black Plates for your amp. A 24-24 in V1 and a 29-29 in V2. Just what the doctor ordered.



I know I know =(

But I'll be out of cash for quite a while, I'm doing up my old strat (Gonna be fucking awesome) and I gotta buy new trannys/get my amp completely repaired (rewired, re-capped, re...Transformered? yaknow) so that'll be like $1000. Then there's the $870 I already owe my mum... Hmmm


And I don't even have a job at the moment


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Holy Cow! Eddie Money is in da house! Doctor, doctor give me the news. I need some black plates to play my blues. Doctor, doctor, this ain't no joke. That black plate sound really makes me smoke. Aaaahhhhh Uuuhh!


----------



## Landshark

Well it's indeed a sad sad day in the Piatt residence... Power tubes redplated today... Just seems like it's one problem after another with this amp head. I know this is a preamp tube thread but I trust you guys with this info more then most. Any Ideas on what's wrong and how much it will cost? I have an idea it might break the bank... but mainly I'm worried about the cost to get it repaired as I don't have a valid warranty (that's a long story).


----------



## MartyStrat54

That sucks a royal one. Give some more info. What happened prior to the red plating? When did you know it was red plating? How long did it red plate?

How old were the power tubes. What year model is the TSL? After 2004? Is there a chance that something else failed first and then the tubes, like the output tranny?

How loud were you playing?

The bottom line is that a tube could have failed and took the others with it. On my TSL122 the tubes would go in and out of red plating. I couldn't bias the tubes. I took it to the shop and I had a quad of RFT EL34's for the amp. The tech check the voltage values and everything was within limits. He put the RFT's in and the amp biased right up. He said I had a bad power tube in the amp and it was making all sorts of crazy current values.

I would pull the chassis and just look real good to see if anything is fried. Take a good look around where the bias resistors are and make sure they are okay. They are located by the trim pot (the adjustable pot for setting the bias). If you didn't smell anything after it died, that's a plus.

Repost once you look and give some more details about what happened.


----------



## solarburn

I think there is something wrong with me...

I put my Brimer BP in V1, the RFT in V2, I can't remember what I have in V3 and I've got a medium gain Raytheon BP in the PI.

I think I've lost it man. I will say it sounds perty decent. How do you like that!

Its actually good for midgain tones but high gain no.

By the way I boost this just a bit with my CTO-1 and it sings me songs so sweet. I'm using me strat and getting lovely women tones off the neck pick up. Good thing I'm not at a gig right now or I'd be ducking(case they're not clean) flying panties and fight'n off the womenz(they can take turns).

Ok I remember now what I have in V3. A 7025, tee hee.

I also want to buy a Marshall JTM45 30 watt head. I'm saving up now...

Right now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you could collect and save all of those womens panties and you could open a second-hand clothing store. Then you could sell all of those panties and this would help you buy your amp sooner. What do you think of that?

See, I know more about other stuff besides tubes. Oh, I hope they are nice size panties and not any circus tents. That would suck.:eek2::eek2:


Attention: This post in no way reflects on the thoughts of the regular forum members who post here. This post has nothing to do with tubes. It is about being in a situation where women throw their panties at you. If this has never happened to you, you need to get in a gigging band that plays ass-kicking rock and the panties will come to you.


----------



## solarburn

Yee Haw I loves the tubes thread!

Who's gonna change the odometer over...


----------



## MajorNut1967

Attention: This post in no way reflects on the thoughts of the regular forum members who post here. This post has nothing to do with tubes. It is about being in a situation where women throw their panties at you. If this has never happened to you, you need to get in a gigging band that plays ass-kicking rock and the panties will come to you.[/QUOTE]

LMAO I played Island music also and got panties throwed at me. But they were the big ones, you know the one's that look like part of a Para sailing rig!

Attention: This post in no way reflects on the thoughts of the regular forum members who post here. This post has nothing to do with tubes. JUST LARGE PANTIES!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn that made me have a good laugh. A Para Sail has a pretty good wingspan. That would take a big girl panty to make a wing for a Para Sail.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This thread is in preparation for the big event. Yes, the big moment that consist of 4 digits worth of posting. I now give you SolarBurn.


----------



## MajorNut1967

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn that made me have a good laugh. A Para Sail has a pretty good wingspan. That would take a big girl panty to make a wing for a Para Sail.



But persevered, got into my Para Sailing gear Flew over the big mountains and landed in the Big Valley, Stayed there for a week, it was humid too!


----------



## solarburn

Its there already mate! Whoo Hoo! I'm Tousand and 2!


----------



## MartyStrat54

1000th POST!!! Get out the party favors the preamp dudes are going to party!!! MajorNut was the 1000th poster. Congratulations!!!


----------



## MajorNut1967

Actually I think Marty was the True 1000 with his announcement!

I VOTE MARTY THE WINNER AND DECREE IT MARTY DAY!


----------



## solarburn

Yes, Martimus Maximus Day indeed.


----------



## solarburn

Have you guys been drinking tonight?


----------



## MajorNut1967

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Have you guys been drinking tonight?



Why do you smell something? I brushed me teeth again.


----------



## solarburn

MajorNut1967 said:


> Why do you smell something? I brushed me teeth again.



I stink I smell tumpting...


----------



## solarburn

Number 800 on the 1K thread hehe.

Oh yeah...Toobs!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MajorNut1967 said:


> Attention: This post in no way reflects on the thoughts of the regular forum members who post here. This post has nothing to do with tubes. It is about being in a situation where women throw their panties at you. If this has never happened to you, you need to get in a gigging band that plays ass-kicking rock and the panties will come to you.



LMAO I played Island music also and got panties throwed at me. But they were the big ones, you know the one's that look like part of a Para sailing rig!

Attention: This post in no way reflects on the thoughts of the regular forum members who post here. This post has nothing to do with tubes. JUST LARGE PANTIES![/QUOTE]

Sorry, but I just couldn't help but make the obligatory Spinal Tap connection here!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzsWuqNlLK4"]YouTube - Spinal Tap-Big Bottoms[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm just now getting up after the hard drinking and man what a party. I had about 15 people over and we celebrated the 1000th post. Man, the booze flowed and the jamming was happening. This is what happens when tubes take over your life. It's a passion. Did I say there was a party last night. 

I'd go out tonight, but I don't know if I could take another night like last night.


----------



## Alex_TE

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Alex, the 12AU7 won't work well in a high gain Marshall amp. If you put one in the amp it would sound like crap. The lowest gain tube I would use is a 12AT7, either in V1 or V4 (in the TSL). A 12AT7 will give you a very nice clean channel, but your lead channel will need to be tweaked to get a high gain sound. A 12AT7 in your V4 (PI) is not a problem. These tend to work well as a PI tube.
> 
> The Matsushita 12AX7 tubes are worth grabbing. Very high quality and built to American specifications. NEC tubes are very good as well. NEC made a lot of special 12AX7's that came out a few years before the US tube companies stopped production. NEC took over and made some of these tubes for about two years. They are still hard to find, but they are out there. These tubes are quiet like a 7025 but have slightly different internal electronic specifications. The tubes are 12AD7, 12DT7 and 12DM7. There are others, but I believe that NEC only made these three. Out of all my tubes, I only have two, 12AD7's and one, 12DM7. All made by NEC. I've tried them and they work great, but they are rare so I keep them in a box.
> 
> The PI tube does not have to be balanced to sound good. Also, you do want your best two tubes in V1 and V2, preferably with the higher gain tube in V2. You can get by with certain brands of current production in V3 and V4. The V3 circuit generates some higher plate voltages and some brands of CP tubes have been failing.
> 
> Since you are using the Mazda's there, you won't have a problem.



Thanks Marty!

I got Matsushita's. They have interesting getter. It located with angle to the plates. Still didn't try them in Marshall, but they sound great in Fender Blues JR. 

CP tubes can also soon die in other positions. Some guys reported reliability issues with 12ax7eh not only in cathode follower, but in other positions... after 3-6 months crackles and hum. 3 months life for preamp tube is a shame, even if you play very much. So i think better to buy specially selected CP tubes.


----------



## Alex_TE

*Congrats! 1000 posts!* 

It's a great thread!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I decided to do a little tube buying on a whim last night. This time I just set an amount and walked away from the computer. I set bids on seven lots. When I came back, I had won three of them and for really decent prices. I got three RCA 7025's for $39. One is nice and balanced, another is a little lopsided and the last one is going to be like a 20-20 (but maybe stronger). Next I got four NIB Sylvania 7025's for $65. These all test at or better than new and they don't seem to be lopsided. Lastly, five premium tubes. Two RCA's, two Tung-Sol's and an Amperex Bugle Boy. All test strong and I got them for $57.

I just thought that I would get on EBAY and hit it good one time. I just sent a member 14 tubes to try out. Two of them were Sylvania Gray Plates for V3 and V4. He is wanting to go NOS in all four slots in a TSL. I sent him a great combination of tubes to roll. I told him that my option would be a 59 GE BP in V1 with an Amperex at 29-29 in V2, but I also gave him a 31-31 Raytheon BP and about five other "missiles" to try out. A nice mix of 7025's and some quiet 12AX7A's for V1. I'll be curious to see where his tastes lay.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I decided to do a little tube buying on a whim last night. This time I just set an amount and walked away from the computer. I set bids on seven lots. When I came back, I had won three of them and for really decent prices. I got three RCA 7025's for $39. One is nice and balanced, another is a little lopsided and the last one is going to be like a 20-20 (but maybe stronger). Next I got four NIB Sylvania 7025's for $65. These all test at or better than new and they don't seem to be lopsided. Lastly, five premium tubes. Two RCA's, two Tung-Sol's and an Amperex Bugle Boy. All test strong and I got them for $57.
> 
> I just thought that I would get on EBAY and hit it good one time. I just sent a member 14 tubes to try out. Two of them were Sylvania Gray Plates for V3 and V4. He is wanting to go NOS in all four slots in a TSL. I sent him a great combination of tubes to roll. I told him that my option would be a 59 GE BP in V1 with an Amperex at 29-29 in V2, but I also gave him a 31-31 Raytheon BP and about five other "missiles" to try out. A nice mix of 7025's and some quiet 12AX7A's for V1. I'll be curious to see where his tastes lay.



Noice!

If your buyer is who I think it is I can't wait to hear what he tinks and how he goes with the TSL. If it isn't who I'm thinking it is then I just say have a blast man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, I am liking the sound of these black plates more and more. I took the 7025 and Amperex out of my TSL122 and put in a 26-25 BP in V1 and a 30-30 BP in V2 (both of them 1962 Raytheon's). Short plate GE's in V3 and V4. Wow! This sounds really good. It rounds out the highs without being harsh. The highs before were more prominent. But what really shines is the low's and the mid's. Nice, tight, solid bottom. When you play a riff with some hammer on's on the low E and A, it is very articulate and tight. Palm muting is like a chain saw...it will cut you down. This would be the ideal rhythm player's setting. The chords are thick and very pronounced. I have two, GE short, BP 7025's coming. After I see how they test, I'll take them for a spin. These tubes were pulled from a 1974 guitar amp. He had three for sale, but someone had bought one. Otherwise I would have bought all three. He was selling them for $15 each with free shipping. Like I say, if they test good, that will be a great deal.

I still think the 7025 and Amperex/Mullard/Raytheon is the best overall sound in the TSL. I'm just saying the BP's make for a better rhythm sound.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I love the mids on the Raytheon BP's. I thought that they were emphasizing the lower mids giving it that great bottom thick texture. I call it that meat sound. Great for hard rock rhythms. You keep on getting those BP's cause you know I'll buy them. Great tube for adding meat to a Marshall. 

I have a meaty Marshall. Say it with me Brutha's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn. I've got a handful of Raytheon black plates... they are all 12AV7's. Time to go eBaying again. This thread is dangerous.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Damn. I've got a handful of Raytheon black plates... they are all 12AV7's. Time to go eBaying again. This thread is dangerous.



Compared to a 12AU7, those 12AV7's are power houses. Where in the world did you find all of those 12AV7's. They are like tubes used in the 1950's.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> That sucks a royal one. Give some more info. What happened prior to the red plating? When did you know it was red plating? How long did it red plate?
> 
> How old were the power tubes. What year model is the TSL? After 2004? Is there a chance that something else failed first and then the tubes, like the output tranny?
> 
> How loud were you playing?
> 
> The bottom line is that a tube could have failed and took the others with it. On my TSL122 the tubes would go in and out of red plating. I couldn't bias the tubes. I took it to the shop and I had a quad of RFT EL34's for the amp. The tech check the voltage values and everything was within limits. He put the RFT's in and the amp biased right up. He said I had a bad power tube in the amp and it was making all sorts of crazy current values.
> 
> I would pull the chassis and just look real good to see if anything is fried. Take a good look around where the bias resistors are and make sure they are okay. They are located by the trim pot (the adjustable pot for setting the bias). If you didn't smell anything after it died, that's a plus.
> 
> Repost once you look and give some more details about what happened.


Pwer tubes were about 3 months old. TSL is a 2006. My friend Aaron was actually playing through it when I noticed a drastic and swift drop in volume. I immediately ran to the back of the amp and the two power tubes on the left were glowing bright orange... The entire tube... both of them. I immediately turned off the head and let it go for a while knowing what the problem was. The next day I turned the head on again to see if it would do the same and was on for an hour with no issues. SO I plugged in a guitar to play and it happened again. This time I let everything cool down an hour opened the chasis and checked the fuses. HT fuse is pretty well burnt up and I found a few capacitors/ resistors that were completely destroyed and some burn marks next to where the tranny connects to the main borad by V8. 

Yea sucks a big one is right. Might the tranny have had something to do with the volume decrees?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you had a power tube failure, it could/would pull some or all of the other tubes with it. This is because it is shorting out and therefore the current is going to rise. When the tube(s) are red plating, the output tranny is seeing a lot of current. This is what melts the insides and causes a short. A shorted OPT will in turn take out other components. It's a vicious cycle.

It sounds like there is some major work that will need to be done. When my TSL122 started acting up, I'm glad I took it to the shop. Otherwise, the tube could have failed and damaged my amp really bad.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you had a power tube failure, it could/would pull some or all of the other tubes with it. This is because it is shorting out and therefore the current is going to rise. When the tube(s) are red plating, the output tranny is seeing a lot of current. This is what melts the insides and causes a short. A shorted OPT will in turn take out other components. It's a vicious cycle.
> 
> It sounds like there is some major work that will need to be done. When my TSL122 started acting up, I'm glad I took it to the shop. Otherwise, the tube could have failed and damaged my amp really bad.



So it would just be better to get it to a tech rather then test with my spare power tubes... Yea that sounds like a better idea anyway... let a pro handle the goofing with it. Back to the shop again then... thrid time in six months.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, that's what I would do. You could put parts in it and there could still be something wrong and it would ruin the new parts you put in. A competent tech will be able to find problems that you wouldn't.

When I was in the Air Force working on electronic gear, we had to trouble shoot failed equipment. When you found the bad component you did not assume that you had fixed the equipment. No, you looked "upstream" to see what could make the bad part fail. A lot of guys would replace the part and it would work for a few days and then the part was bad again. There is always something else in the circuit that can go bad and take another part out with it.

This is why it is best to let a pro look at it. I personally do not do any major work on my TSL's. I pay a tech to do the serious stuff.


----------



## hodge50

Just put in 2 mullards in V and V2 and woow what a difference, it really sounds such a different amp..a lot fuller in the tone and it goes into crunch much easier on the volume, why do Marshall skimp with such shit tubes when for pennies it could be so good


----------



## MartyStrat54

hodge50 said:


> Just put in 2 mullards in V and V2 and woow what a difference, it really sounds such a different amp..a lot fuller in the tone and it goes into crunch much easier on the volume, why do Marshall skimp with such shit tubes when for pennies it could be so good



Did you use real NOS Mullards, or the current production one's? Either way they are going to make your amp sound better.

I agree with you. Marshall could be using better tubes, but instead they use Sovtek's relabeled "Marshall" and they are really cheap tubes. A lot of it has to do with a tube manufacturer being able to meet the demand of the amp company. The amp company goes with whoever can supply the needed amount of tubes. In this case, Sovtek. I believe that Marshall is also using some Chinese tubes in the HAZE amps.


----------



## hodge50

yep NOS and they are the dogs danglies


----------



## MartyStrat54

hodge50 said:


> yep NOS and they are the dogs danglies



Great! I was hoping they were real Mullards. Yeah baby!

Now you see what happens when you put some real tubes in V1 and V2. Your amp will take off like an airplane.


----------



## Allterr

hodge50 said:


> yep NOS and they are the dogs danglies



Hehe.....dogs danglies.........


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, that's what I would do. You could put parts in it and there could still be something wrong and it would ruin the new parts you put in. A competent tech will be able to find problems that you wouldn't.
> 
> When I was in the Air Force working on electronic gear, we had to trouble shoot failed equipment. When you found the bad component you did not assume that you had fixed the equipment. No, you looked "upstream" to see what could make the bad part fail. A lot of guys would replace the part and it would work for a few days and then the part was bad again. There is always something else in the circuit that can go bad and take another part out with it.
> 
> This is why it is best to let a pro look at it. I personally do not do any major work on my TSL's. I pay a tech to do the serious stuff.



Yep that's the plan... Indy here I come...


----------



## rockinr0ll

hodge50 said:


> yep NOS and they are the dogs danglies



lol... true though!


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright... I have to wait 10 days, but I've got what sounds like a great lead. I run a newspaper, so I get to see stuff before everybody else. There's an estate auction coming up just a few miles from me, and one of the items listed is an "old RCA radio tube box". I emailed the auctioneer and he says it's full of tubes. I'm going to set up a time to view it. I'll post the results when I know something. Keep your fingers crossed!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Could be a service tech's box. They split open at the top and can carry a boat load of tubes. God, it could have almost anything in it. I'm sure there will be a lot of TV tubes, but there could be 6L6's, EL34/6CA7's, 6V6's (at least pairs) and surely some 12AU7's, 12AT7's and 12AX7's and maybe some 7025's.

I'm pulling for you.


----------



## Landshark

Hey Marty, you think it would be worthwhile to send you my power tubes for testing while I'm getting mymoney together for repairs?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Could be a service tech's box. They split open at the top and can carry a boat load of tubes. God, it could have almost anything in it. I'm sure there will be a lot of TV tubes, but there could be 6L6's, EL34/6CA7's, 6V6's (at least pairs) and surely some 12AU7's, 12AT7's and 12AX7's and maybe some 7025's.
> 
> I'm pulling for you.



Yeah, I worked in a mom & pop music store back in the late 80's during college and after. They had been a Fender dealer back when it counted. They had an RCA box that was full of 6V6's and 6L6'S and rectifiers. Not many preamp tubes though. I retubed an old BF Super that I wish I still had out of that box. 

There's an antique mall in Jackson, TN that has a booth with a buttload of tubes and an RCA box with probably at least a couple hundred tubes in it, all 9-pin and not a damned one useful. That Mullard EZ81 that you tested for me came from a 25 cent bin they had sitting on the counter.

I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much. With my luck, I know I'll get there and either A). it'll be all weird TV tubes, or B). somebody with deeper pockets than me will be bidding on it. I'm hoping that my $25 Yamaha score a few weeks ago is a sign my luck is changing.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I worked in a mom & pop music store back in the late 80's during college and after. They had been a Fender dealer back when it counted. They had an RCA box that was full of 6V6's and 6L6'S and rectifiers. Not many preamp tubes though. I retubed an old BF Super that I wish I still had out of that box.
> 
> There's an antique mall in Jackson, TN that has a booth with a buttload of tubes and an RCA box with probably at least a couple hundred tubes in it, all 9-pin and not a damned one useful. That Mullard EZ81 that you tested for me came from a 25 cent bin they had sitting on the counter.
> 
> I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much. With my luck, I know I'll get there and either A). it'll be all weird TV tubes, or B). somebody with deeper pockets than me will be bidding on it. I'm hoping that my $25 Yamaha score a few weeks ago is a sign my luck is changing.



Man I hope it turns out for you. Wouldn't it be great to find a buffet of tubes that you can use. What a rush that would be.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just out of curiosity, is it a bad sign if certain preamp tubes are running hotter than others? I've noticed when changing out some tubes, especially V3 and V4, they can be hot enough to burn - about like an EL34.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was just talking to Joe about that on a PM. V3 and V4 run hotter than V1 and V2. They are handling more plate voltage. That's why some CP tubes are failing, especially in V3. It usually runs about 250V on the plates.

When you go preview the tube box, let us know if it has anything good in it.

I just lost an EBAY auction for some real Sylvania Fat Boy STR416's. These are the black plate EL34 tubes. The STR415's are BP 6L6GC's and were used in the Fender "Evil Twin." When it got over $60 per tube I knew I wasn't going to be the winner. The set of four went for $322. Over $80 a piece, plus shipping.

Man, good power tubes are way higher than preamp tubes. Even little EL84's bring lots of money if they are the right brand. $200 to $300 for a matched quad. I need at least a couple more quads and a few pairs (EL34/6CA7's).


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just lost an EBAY auction for some real Sylvania Fat Boy STR416's. These are the black plate EL34 tubes. The STR415's are BP 6L6GC's and were used in the Fender "Evil Twin." When it got over $60 per tube I knew I wasn't going to be the winner. The set of four went for $322. Over $80 a piece, plus shipping.



I saw an old Peavey Deuce that had some USA 6L6's in it awhile back. All I can remember about them is that they had a small metal base. Any idea what they were?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I saw an old Peavey Deuce that had some USA 6L6's in it awhile back. All I can remember about them is that they had a small metal base. Any idea what they were?



Could be either a Slyvania or a real Tung-Sol. Since Peavey had a long love affair with Sylvania, I'm going with them. Sylvania also did a metal base for RCA. It is still a Sylvania.

If your ever see an old Deuce or Mace amp, chances are the original tubes are still in them and for good reason. These amps came out when Sylvania was making their best 6L6 tubes. I bought a MACE head and it has six, Sylvania STR 387 Fat Boy tubes in them. The STR415 was the Black Plate version.


----------



## Jae

Hey, I though I'd jump in to the preamp tube discussion. I am recently looking at 12ax7 tubes for my Marshall Superlead. I noticed a Telefunken tube with blue dots. Sorry if i missed a post on this, but anyone know what these are? Or are they known to be good?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've never seen a Tele 12AX7 with blue dots. If you hold a Tele tube in your hand and look at the bottom of the tube, in between the nine pins you should see a diamond shape in the glass. If that's not there, it's either a fake, or an RFT 12AX7 made for Telefunken.

Any chance you can post a pic of it or submit a link. I would like to see it.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never seen a Tele 12AX7 with blue dots. If you hold a Tele tube in your hand and look at the bottom of the tube, in between the nine pins you should see a diamond shape in the glass. If that's not there, it's either a fake, or an RFT 12AX7 made for Telefunken.
> 
> Any chance you can post a pic of it or submit a link. I would like to see it.



Thanks Marty,

I'll definitely post some pics when I get them in.
i think the blue dots are located on the tip of the tube. Or the tip has a sort of blue tint to it which looks like blue dots when seen from above.

I hope these are not fake.

Also, I was wondering if the Brimar 12ax7s are good. There is a guy in my local area who is selling some real premium Brimar tubes NOS. I've seen them at his house and they look brand spanken new and says made in England. These were never used and i'm surprised, because he has a whole bunch of them and says he's the only guy who has these and you can't find anywhere else (not so sure about that one though). He's charging $100 a piece for them, which I think is alot. Any thoughts on these?

Also, is there anything I should look out for before purchasing something like these? To make sure I'm not getting ripped off (the price is quite high, but is that reasonable?) Is it also good for both sides of the preamp tube to be matched? I've seen alot of strong vintage tubes, but the sides are not matched for a tube. Would this make any difference in sound? Should I ask the guy to check both sides of the tube to make sure? He's also matching three for me. And he's also saying that for high-fi audio equipment it's essential to have a very high spec tube and matched, but for guitar amplifiers it isn't such a big deal, because it just "noise" he says. He sells tube parts for turntables and high-fi audio equipment fyi. I disagree with the "sound" argument though, because as a guitar player I can hear hear the nuances and also need to be picky about it.

Please let me know your thoughts on this!! Thanks again.

please let me know. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a pretty steep price for Brimar's and no, he isn't the only one who sells them. There are many online tube stores that sell Brimar's. On a guitar amp, the tube doesn't have to be perfectly matched. However, you don't want it crazy lopsided either. On my tube tester, 22 represents a new, nominal 12AX7 type tube. So if I use a tube that reads 24-26 in V1 and 28-31 in V2, that is okay and the amp will sound fine.

Personally, I think Brimar's are overpriced. They sort of got the reputation of being better than a Mullard and I think that is nonsense. Mullard made a tube called a 10M. These tubes cost more than a Brimar. I would take a smooth plate Telefunken over a Brimar, but that's me. There are easily five or more tubes that could be considered as the "best." It all boils down to your own preference. They make and model of an amp dictates how a tube will sound. A tube that sounds flat in a Fender, may scream in a Marshall. You have to take the circuitry into consideration. Just as a certain pair of speakers will sound different through a Fender or a Marshall, so will the preamp tubes.

I would Google or Dogpile "Brimar ECC83/12AX7" and check other prices out, before laying out $300 for three tubes. I will say that the Mullard xf2's you got coupled with Brimar's would probably be the best set of tubes your Super Lead ever had.

I did a little checking and it seems that $100 for a NOS Brimar is the going rate. Wow! I really do sell my tubes cheap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> Hey Marty, you think it would be worthwhile to send you my power tubes for testing while I'm getting mymoney together for repairs?



Not a problem. Just send me a PM with your full name and address. The testing is free, but you need to pay for the mailing costs. If you haven't shipped tubes before, send me a PM and I'll give you some tips.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got a couple of shipments in and one was four Sylvania 7025's, but they are actually made by Raytheon. "Score!" All four tested solid.

However, I got two GE BP 7025's and they were junk. Tested at 15-14 and 16-16. Great for Joe, I would just tell him they are 12AT7's. I sent these tubes back and made the guy pay for shipping. You don't advertise in your auction that the tubes were "tested" and then tell the customer (me) that you put them in an amp and they sounded good. That may be true, but it's not a tube test, it's an ear test.

I got a shipment coming in with two RCA's, two Raytheon's and one Amperex. I've been buying more 7025's lately if I find a good deal. I also might start buying more power tubes. I missed a good deal on some Fat Boy EL34's. They were being sold as a quad, but they were actually two pairs. You wouldn't be able to run them as a quad, they were too far off. But hey, there are a lot of 50 watters out there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I sent an email to Brent Jessee (a big tube seller) about my Amperex EL84's and he replied back that they were made in 1962. They have the desirable halo top getter and they are worth about $350. My estimate was about the same. 

He told me my quad of EL84 Telefunken's would fetch almost as much. 

Man, I wish I had a bunch of these brand name EL84's. I sold a bunch of Sylvania EL84's about two weeks ago on EBAY. BP's and GP's.

#1400 post.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got a couple of shipments in and one was four Sylvania 7025's, but they are actually made by Raytheon. "Score!" All four tested solid.
> 
> However, I got two GE BP 7025's and they were junk. Tested at 15-14 and 16-16. Great for Joe, I would just tell him they are 12AT7's. I sent these tubes back and made the guy pay for shipping. You don't advertise in your auction that the tubes were "tested" and then tell the customer (me) that you put them in an amp and they sounded good. That may be true, but it's not a tube test, it's an ear test.
> 
> I got a shipment coming in with two RCA's, two Raytheon's and one Amperex. I've been buying more 7025's lately if I find a good deal. I also might start buying more power tubes. I missed a good deal on some Fat Boy EL34's. They were being sold as a quad, but they were actually two pairs. You wouldn't be able to run them as a quad, they were too far off. But hey, there are a lot of 50 watters out there.



Ain't that the truth.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, I sent an email to Brent Jessee (a big tube seller) about my Amperex EL84's and he replied back that they were made in 1962. They have the desirable halo top getter and they are worth about $350. My estimate was about the same.
> 
> He told me my quad of EL84 Telefunken's would fetch almost as much.
> 
> Man, I wish I had a bunch of these brand name EL84's. I sold a bunch of Sylvania EL84's about two weeks ago on EBAY. BP's and GP's.
> 
> #1400 post.




You're going to lap me.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got a couple of shipments in and one was four Sylvania 7025's, but they are actually made by Raytheon. "Score!" All four tested solid.
> 
> However, I got two GE BP 7025's and they were junk. Tested at 15-14 and 16-16. Great for Joe, I would just tell him they are 12AT7's. I sent these tubes back and made the guy pay for shipping. You don't advertise in your auction that the tubes were "tested" and then tell the customer (me) that you put them in an amp and they sounded good. That may be true, but it's not a tube test, it's an ear test.
> 
> I got a shipment coming in with two RCA's, two Raytheon's and one Amperex. I've been buying more 7025's lately if I find a good deal. I also might start buying more power tubes. I missed a good deal on some Fat Boy EL34's. They were being sold as a quad, but they were actually two pairs. You wouldn't be able to run them as a quad, they were too far off. But hey, there are a lot of 50 watters out there.




Hey marty,

Did you by any chance see the quad Fat Boy tubes on ebay recently? The auction ended. I scored a quad Sylvania 6CA7s on ebay recently from a guy with a name Marantz pr something like that. I was planning to put them in my Superlead. They guy also gave me another tube for a price to make 5 tubes. The extra one he put in was NOS, but have to test those. I can't wait to get them in and fire the Superlead up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You're going to lap me.



Since I've known you, you have been doing pretty good. You got to 500 pretty damn fast. You will be to 1000 sooner than you think. If you have good shit to say and post it, the numbers will come.

BTW-You are the second biggest contributor on this thread. Click on the "Replies" number and it shows who has posted and how many times. It also puts all of your posts in chronological order.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Since I've known you, you have been doing pretty good. You got to 500 pretty damn fast. You will be to 1000 sooner than you think. If you have good shit to say and post it, the numbers will come.
> 
> BTW-You are the second biggest contributor on this thread. Click on the "Replies" number and it shows who has posted and how many times. It also puts all of your posts in chronological order.



This thread definitely put me there hehe. I better get 1K before you catch me though or I don't get none...whatever that is hehe.

I pointed a HCAF member to our thread earlier today since he was looking for info on some NOS tuberz. Hopefully we get anudder contributor here. Quite a few more have joined us and this thread is worthy of its post count.

You my friend earned your numbers with all the good info given.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks, I appreciate that.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a few oddball tubes today. I was wondering if anybody could shed some light on them. I found a Tung-Sol 12BH7A with black plates. I thought I remembered reading that a 12BH7 could be used in V1 in a guitar amp in place of a 12AX7, but I can't find the thread for some reason. IIRC, the BH7 has the same pinout, but one side is like a 12AX7 and the other is like a 12AU7. Was I dreaming this?

Also, I found a tube which is likely a Mullard. It looks like it reads 16A8/PCL82 with the code 3F4/1816 on it. It's branded Motorola and says "Made in England" under that. Any idea what this is?

The other two were a Sylvania 12AU7 and a Westinghouse 12AV7 which appears to be a Raytheon black plate. 

I know none of these are great, but I had hopes for the BH7. I've got a grand total of $1.76 invested in these, so it's no big deal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I picked up a few oddball tubes today. I was wondering if anybody could shed some light on them. I found a Tung-Sol 12BH7A with black plates. I thought I remembered reading that a 12BH7 could be used in V1 in a guitar amp in place of a 12AX7, but I can't find the thread for some reason. IIRC, the BH7 has the same pinout, but one side is like a 12AX7 and the other is like a 12AU7. Was I dreaming this?
> 
> Also, I found a tube which is likely a Mullard. It looks like it reads 16A8/PCL82 with the code 3F4/1816 on it. It's branded Motorola and says "Made in England" under that. Any idea what this is?
> 
> The other two were a Sylvania 12AU7 and a Westinghouse 12AV7 which appears to be a Raytheon black plate.
> 
> I know none of these are great, but I had hopes for the BH7. I've got a grand total of $1.76 invested in these, so it's no big deal.



The 12DW7 is the tube that is like a 12AX7 on one triode and a 12AU7 on the other triode. You can use a 12BH7 in place of a 12AX7 as it has the same "9A" pinout, but it is like a 12AU7 when it comes to gain factor.

The 16A8/PCL82 is a special High-Mu Triode/Power Pentode. It has a "9EX" pin out. As stated on the tube (16A8), this is a 16 volt heater. It has an amplification factor of 70. It looks as if it was used as either a Triode Class A amplifier tube at about 8 watts per tube, or as a Pentode Class A amplifier.

The 12AV7 is a medium-mu twin triode that has a gain factor of 37 per side. 

I believe the 5 watt Black Star has a 12AX7 and a 12BH7A for the tubes. (Yeah I checked and that's what it is.) Now all you got to do is get yourself a 5W Blackstar and you'll be set.

It makes you wonder what the real applications were for some of these odd ass tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, just for shits and giggles I tried the BH7. It wasn't as bad as a 12AU7 - it still had a little grit. It might work well cranked. It was too late to test it loud tonight. I also found an RCA Victor turntable/radio console today. It had a tube chart on the back of it, and it looked like it used a couple of 6v6's and a 5U4GB rectifier. I believe the pre's were EF86 equivalents. The turntable didn't work, but I almost took a chance anyway - it was $50 and that amp sounded promising. I think Gibson and maybe Ampeg used EF86's in some of their amps. The radio tuner/preamp had a bunch of 12AU7s. I'm skeptical of these antique mall treasures. I've seen too many that have had the back pulled loose and the tubes rifled.

Was the PCL82 one of those dual output tubes like that ELL80 I have? It has the same silvery metal plate between the two black plates.

I made cell phone pictures of all this stuff, but for some reason I can't download them.


----------



## Jae

RiverRatt said:


> Well, just for shits and giggles I tried the BH7. It wasn't as bad as a 12AU7 - it still had a little grit. It might work well cranked. It was too late to test it loud tonight. I also found an RCA Victor turntable/radio console today. It had a tube chart on the back of it, and it looked like it used a couple of 6v6's and a 5U4GB rectifier. I believe the pre's were EF86 equivalents. The turntable didn't work, but I almost took a chance anyway - it was $50 and that amp sounded promising. I think Gibson and maybe Ampeg used EF86's in some of their amps. The radio tuner/preamp had a bunch of 12AU7s. I'm skeptical of these antique mall treasures. I've seen too many that have had the back pulled loose and the tubes rifled.
> 
> Was the PCL82 one of those dual output tubes like that ELL80 I have? It has the same silvery metal plate between the two black plates.
> 
> I made cell phone pictures of all this stuff, but for some reason I can't download them.



Speaking of the RCA preamp 12ax7s, how do they sound compared to let's say a Mullard or a Telefunken. Sorry, this was probably already discussed, but I'm too tired to go back and read 1000 posts!

BTW, I was test running a few different preamp tubes today with a friend. I tried the Telefunken 12ax7s and Mullard 12ax7. The Mullard seems to have a more rounder sound with a bit more bottom end and alot warmer sounding. 

I noticed the Telefunkens sounded a bit more on the high end. It was more sharp and had a bit of a trebley tail end (if that makes sense). I liked both of them though. I also have a couple of yellow print Mullard 12ax7s and I like the sound from them. They seems to have a tad bit more gain, but maybe all tubes sound different even though they might be the same make.
However, the yellow Mullards, which were supposed to be 100% had a few problems. The signal faded in and out and started to get a bit scratchy. I like the sound of them, and I hope it's just a matter of cleaning the pins.

Oh, and also I tried some Brimar 12ax7s NOS. They sound good too. I'd say they have more mids and bottom end. But that's just me. So far I tried all three and I like them all, but right now I'd say the yellow print Mullards sound best for now, only if they worked properly. I'm thinking of getting another yellow print Mullard.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm running a lower-gain RCA ECC83 in V1 and an RFT 7025A in V2 and I'm really happy with the tone I'm getting. The RCA is a nice, round sound. It's a very quiet tube and really warms up the crunch channel on my DSL. The RFT has a great classic rock tone on the Ultra channel. Lead 1 with the gain dimed really comes close to the Appetite For Destruction tone. Both the RCA and the RFT are a little dark sounding, which helps to tame the DSL's treble. I don't know what kind of amp you have, but you might want to pick up an RCA 12BZ7 for V2. Crank the gain up to 10 on the ultra channel and that tube absolutely sings, but you sacrifice some of the clean on the green channel. I said before that they are like an instant "Red House" tone. They have that creamy, thick sustain. I've seen BZ7's listed for 40-60 bucks on eBay. I bought two from Tube Depot for $8.95 each. They sent me two very nice RCA's. I don't think I could use them all the time, but they are fun to play around with.


----------



## Jae

RiverRatt said:


> I'm running a lower-gain RCA ECC83 in V1 and an RFT 7025A in V2 and I'm really happy with the tone I'm getting. The RCA is a nice, round sound. It's a very quiet tube and really warms up the crunch channel on my DSL. The RFT has a great classic rock tone on the Ultra channel. Lead 1 with the gain dimed really comes close to the Appetite For Destruction tone. Both the RCA and the RFT are a little dark sounding, which helps to tame the DSL's treble. I don't know what kind of amp you have, but you might want to pick up an RCA 12BZ7 for V2. Crank the gain up to 10 on the ultra channel and that tube absolutely sings, but you sacrifice some of the clean on the green channel. I said before that they are like an instant "Red House" tone. They have that creamy, thick sustain. I've seen BZ7's listed for 40-60 bucks on eBay. I bought two from Tube Depot for $8.95 each. They sent me two very nice RCA's. I don't think I could use
> them all the time, but they are fun to play around with.



Yeah, I'm actually looking to get some 12bz7s. I'd like to get some more gain. The amps I'm using now are a '78 JMP Masterlead and a '67 Marshall Superlead. I was surprised to see that these 12bz7s go for really cheap compared to the Mullards or Telefunkens and Brimars. I'm looking through ebay now to see what's good.


----------



## Jae

Hey, btw, what do you think of the RCA 12bz7s. Is there any particular brand for these that are good in terms of sound? (I know it's subjective, but your opinion). So far I've seen RCAs, Tungsols and GE. I guess they are all good depending on the condition.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've heard that because of their longer plates, they tend to be microphonic. All the ones you mentioned should be fine, but I can only speak for the two RCAs I have, and they sound good and are very quiet. That doesn't mean that the next RCA I run across will sound the same, though. As a general rule, I've found RCA tubes to be fairly consistent and really good quality, but you can get a dud from any manufacturer.

You'll have to wait for Marty's advice as to your amps. I've never used one in an amp with 3 preamp tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I believe the pre's were EF86 equivalents. The turntable didn't work, but I almost took a chance anyway - it was $50 and that amp sounded promising. I think Gibson and maybe Ampeg used EF86's in some of their amps.
> 
> Was the PCL82 one of those dual output tubes like that ELL80 I have? It has the same silvery metal plate between the two black plates.



Yeah, I have a matched quad of EF86's that I pulled from a Baldwin organ amp. What sucks is they are not compatible with a 12AX7 circuit. They have a "9BJ" pin out. The American version is a 6CF8.

The PCL82 isn't really a preamp tube. It might be able to be used as one in a very specific circuit. My data shows it was mainly used as a small watt amplifier tube. However, it would have to be in a specific circuit with the 16 volt heater.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Speaking of the RCA preamp 12ax7s, how do they sound compared to let's say a Mullard or a Telefunken. Sorry, this was probably already discussed, but I'm too tired to go back and read 1000 posts!
> 
> BTW, I was test running a few different preamp tubes today with a friend. I tried the Telefunken 12ax7s and Mullard 12ax7. The Mullard seems to have a more rounder sound with a bit more bottom end and alot warmer sounding.
> 
> I noticed the Telefunkens sounded a bit more on the high end. It was more sharp and had a bit of a trebley tail end (if that makes sense). I liked both of them though. I also have a couple of yellow print Mullard 12ax7s and I like the sound from them. They seems to have a tad bit more gain, but maybe all tubes sound different even though they might be the same make.
> However, the yellow Mullards, which were supposed to be 100% had a few problems. The signal faded in and out and started to get a bit scratchy. I like the sound of them, and I hope it's just a matter of cleaning the pins.
> 
> Oh, and also I tried some Brimar 12ax7s NOS. They sound good too. I'd say they have more mids and bottom end. But that's just me. So far I tried all three and I like them all, but right now I'd say the yellow print Mullards sound best for now, only if they worked properly. I'm thinking of getting another yellow print Mullard.



I think pre-60's RCA Gray Plates are some of the most desirable American made 12AX7's. If you can score a few, do it. You seem to already have a good stash of tubes. Are your Telefunkens ribbed or smooth plate? The smooth plates are supposedly the best. I have about eight or nine of the smooth one's and they are slightly better sounding than the ribbed plates.

I love Mullards, especially a high gain in V2 of a DSL/TSL. Other tubes I like are Amperex/Philips and RCA or Raytheon Black Plates. If you are having trouble with dirty pins, use a small piece of synthetic steel wool. Use upstrokes on the pins away from the tube. This will clean the pins.

The best way to get familiar with tubes is to get a mix of them. Most of the regulars here on the thread have a wide variety of tubes that they can roll in their amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Yeah, I'm actually looking to get some 12bz7s. I'd like to get some more gain. The amps I'm using now are a '78 JMP Masterlead and a '67 Marshall Superlead. I was surprised to see that these 12bz7s go for really cheap compared to the Mullards or Telefunkens and Brimars. I'm looking through ebay now to see what's good.



What we have found is that a BZ7 can be a touchy tube when placed in a guitar amp. Will it provide more usable gain? Yes, but it might be the sort of gain you might not like. And yes, the BZ7 is a taller tube and has longer plates and when the amp is turned up, it could create some microphonics.

12BZ7 are much cheaper than 12AX7's, because of the amount of demand for a 12AX7. Also, there seems to be a surplus of BZ7 tubes and that keeps the price down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey, btw, what do you think of the RCA 12bz7s. Is there any particular brand for these that are good in terms of sound? (I know it's subjective, but your opinion). So far I've seen RCAs, Tungsols and GE. I guess they are all good depending on the condition.



Well if I was going to use them, I would go with either the RCA or Tung-Sol. Raytheon made a good one too. When buying, make sure that the seller lists a tube tester score. Try to get as much info on the tube as possible.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think pre-60's RCA Gray Plates are some of the most desirable American made 12AX7's. If you can score a few, do it. You seem to already have a good stash of tubes. Are your Telefunkens ribbed or smooth plate? The smooth plates are supposedly the best. I have about eight or nine of the smooth one's and they are slightly better sounding than the ribbed plates.
> 
> I love Mullards, especially a high gain in V2 of a DSL/TSL. Other tubes I like are Amperex/Philips and RCA or Raytheon Black Plates. If you are having trouble with dirty pins, use a small piece of synthetic steel wool. Use upstrokes on the pins away from the tube. This will clean the pins.
> 
> The best way to get familiar with tubes is to get a mix of them. Most of the regulars here on the thread have a wide variety of tubes that they can roll in their amps.



Thanks Marty. I saw a pair of RCA 12ax7s for about $105 on ebay. There are supposedly NOS black plates. This might be a good deal. I'm planning on getting mixed tubes and try as many different makes as possible. Who knows, maybe I'll find out that even cheaper priced NOS tubes sound best. I'm budding right now on ebay. i'll let you know if I won them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Thanks Marty. I saw a pair of RCA 12ax7s for about $105 on ebay. There are supposedly NOS black plates. This might be a good deal. I'm planning on getting mixed tubes and try as many different makes as possible. Who knows, maybe I'll find out that even cheaper priced NOS tubes sound best. I'm budding right now on ebay. i'll let you know if I won them.



Well funny you should say that, because I think a Sylvania 12AX7 is one of the most overlooked tubes. The problem with the Sylvania is that they were in production longer than any American tube maker. Therefore, there is a lot of them around. Sylvania's were around since about 1984 and then Philips bought them out and made tube under the Philips ECG brand until 1988.

The majority of my tube collection is Sylvania 12AX7's and 7025's. If I had to put four of them in my amp, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would take them any day over current production. I think Sylvania's hold their own against an RCA. I think that some brands are overinflated simply because of demand.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I have a matched quad of EF86's that I pulled from a Baldwin organ amp. What sucks is they are not compatible with a 12AX7 circuit. They have a "9BJ" pin out. The American version is a 6CF8.
> 
> The PCL82 isn't really a preamp tube. It might be able to be used as one in a very specific circuit. My data shows it was mainly used as a small watt amplifier tube. However, it would have to be in a specific circuit with the 16 volt heater.



Yeah, I knew that the PCL80 was a low watt power tube - I just wondered if it was a dual triode type. The ELL80 I have is sorta like two EL84's in one bottle. I've seen it used in old stereo hi-fi's instead of two power tubes. The one tube could either serve as a power tube for two separate class A amps, or as both tubes in a push-pull amp. The ones I've seen have used an EZ81 rectifier tube, too. Apparently the ELL80s are pretty rare. I wouldn't have bought the PCL82 if it hadn't been a Mullard and been in the 10¢ bin.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well funny you should say that, because I think a Sylvania 12AX7 is one of the most overlooked tubes. The problem with the Sylvania is that they were in production longer than any American tube maker. Therefore, there is a lot of them around. Sylvania's were around since about 1984 and then Philips bought them out and made tube under the Philips ECG brand until 1988.
> 
> The majority of my tube collection is Sylvania 12AX7's and 7025's. If I had to put four of them in my amp, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I would take them any day over current production. I think Sylvania's hold their own against an RCA. I think that some brands are overinflated simply because of demand.




I forgot to tell you that I do have three sylvania 12ax7s 7025A. They came with my '72 Superlead. They do sound really good. My impression of the Sylvanias were they were very crisp sounding with plenty of gain and not so boomy. i like them very much.

BTW, I won the RCAs, but for a hefty amount. They were NOS, but I couldn have got a better deal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> I forgot to tell you that I do have three sylvania 12ax7s 7025A. They came with my '72 Superlead. They do sound really good. My impression of the Sylvanias were they were very crisp sounding with plenty of gain and not so boomy. i like them very much.
> 
> BTW, I won the RCAs, but for a hefty amount. They were NOS, but I couldn have got a better deal.



Well I will say that you have unloaded some cash lately for tubes. I guess you could say you jumped right in. Were the RCA's listed as NIB/NOS? Did the seller test the tubes, or did he say that they were unused? I think NIB tubes should still be tested so the buyer can see if the triodes are somewhat balanced. I have bought NIB tubes that were like 24-31. What am I going to do with that? As a matter of fact, out of the 400 or so tubes I have, I have quite a few that are lopsided like that. Supposedly you can use them in V3 or V4 of a DSL/TSL amp without a problem, but I haven't ever done it..


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I will say that you have unloaded some cash lately for tubes. I guess you could say you jumped right in. Were the RCA's listed as NIB/NOS? Did the seller test the tubes, or did he say that they were unused? I think NIB tubes should still be tested so the buyer can see if the triodes are somewhat balanced. I have bought NIB tubes that were like 24-31. What am I going to do with that? As a matter of fact, out of the 400 or so tubes I have, I have quite a few that are lopsided like that. Supposedly you can use them in V3 or V4 of a DSL/TSL amp without a problem, but I haven't ever done it..



Yeah, I heard some people say nos, but it's been used, but tested nos. The RCAs I got said they were tested new and the picture shows the original box. However, based on the description I don't think they are actually new. 





As you can see i paid too much for these. After reading all the posts on preamp tubes and talking to alot of people, I've decided to invest alot of time and money on these to test them out. You can say I jumped in and am going a bit crazy on these.

I'm going to look for some GE tubes to spread the palette out a bit more. I also won another yellow print Mullard ( I liked the sound on the one I bought before so I was looking for another). I'll let you all know what new thing I've found from these tests. I'm very enthused about all this.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think pre-60's RCA Gray Plates are some of the most desirable American made 12AX7's. If you can score a few, do it. You seem to already have a good stash of tubes. Are your Telefunkens ribbed or smooth plate? The smooth plates are supposedly the best. I have about eight or nine of the smooth one's and they are slightly better sounding than the ribbed plates.
> 
> I love Mullards, especially a high gain in V2 of a DSL/TSL. Other tubes I like are Amperex/Philips and RCA or Raytheon Black Plates. If you are having trouble with dirty pins, use a small piece of synthetic steel wool. Use upstrokes on the pins away from the tube. This will clean the pins.
> 
> The best way to get familiar with tubes is to get a mix of them. Most of the regulars here on the thread have a wide variety of tubes that they can roll in their amps.



So you say that the Telefunkens with the smooth plates sound better to you, right? I have to double check to see if they are smooth or ribbed.

What about the Mullards and other makes? Does it make a difference at least to you whether they are ribbed or smooth?


----------



## Jae

Hey Marty,

So I found out that at least one of the telefunkens I have is a smooth plate. I ended up getting a pair of ribbed plate Tele's and a separate smooth Tele. 

I haven't compared the two side by side, but will do so when I get the chance. From the looks of it the smooth plate was the better one. Another guy told me this was a good one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> So I found out that at least one of the telefunkens I have is a smooth plate. I ended up getting a pair of ribbed plate Tele's and a separate smooth Tele.
> 
> I haven't compared the two side by side, but will do so when I get the chance. From the looks of it the smooth plate was the better one. Another guy told me this was a good one.



Well there isn't much difference. Audiophiles state the smooth plates tend to have a more articulate midrange.

Hey as far as GE's go, try to find their short, black plates. They were made from like 1955 to 1962 or so. For some reason, almost all the one's I have bought were made in 1959. These are some really nice tubes. Also, GE Five Star tubes. They are nice to have.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well there isn't much difference. Audiophiles state the smooth plates tend to have a more articulate midrange.
> 
> Hey as far as GE's go, try to find their short, black plates. They were made from like 1955 to 1962 or so. For some reason, almost all the one's I have bought were made in 1959. These are some really nice tubes. Also, GE Five Star tubes. They are nice to have.



Hey Marty,

Thanks alot for the good info and recommendations.

I'm going to look on ebay now and look for some. I'll let you know what I come up with.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well there isn't much difference. Audiophiles state the smooth plates tend to have a more articulate midrange.
> 
> Hey as far as GE's go, try to find their short, black plates. They were made from like 1955 to 1962 or so. For some reason, almost all the one's I have bought were made in 1959. These are some really nice tubes. Also, GE Five Star tubes. They are nice to have.



Hey I found a few five star Ge's. However, they say 5751 and 5686. Any idea how these are in terms of gain?

I also found an interesting GE called TRAM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey I found a few five star Ge's. However, they say 5751 and 5686. Any idea how these are in terms of gain?



A 5751 has a gain of 70, compared to 100 for a 12AX7. A lot of stereo buffs use them in the first stage of their stereo equipment, because they are quieter. Some guitarist prefer a 5751 in V1. I like a 7025 in V1. It is as quiet as a 5751 with the gain of a 12AX7. Bottom line is you can use them and you may like the tone and clean headroom you get.

The 5686 is a little power tube. It won't work.


----------



## PaoloJM

MartyStrat54 said:


> A 5751 has a gain of 70, compared to 100 for a 12AX7. A lot of stereo buffs use them in the first stage of their stereo equipment, because they are quieter. Some guitarist prefer a 5751 in V1. I like a 7025 in V1. It is as quiet as a 5751 with the gain of a 12AX7. Bottom line is you can use them and you may like the tone and clean headroom you get.
> 
> The 5686 is a little power tube. It won't work.



Hey guys, only spotted this thread now. Hope you don't mind me butting in!! 
5751s are a great little tube for many applications. In a high guitar amp it really helps to reduce fizz and noise. I put one in V1 of a 5150 and it really cut some of the mush and reduced the noise levels, even my girlfriend noticed the difference!! The amp became quieter and more articulate.
I'll be some samples on my soundclick page of the same amp with a 12AX7 in V1 versus a 5751.

Marty, you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of NOS valves and valve in general, very impressive. Some of those valve types I've never even heard of. Looking forward to reading back through this. 

PS: I'm a big Sylvania valve fan too!!


----------



## Jae

Yep, I was talking about a yellow print Mullard 12ax7s I bought as a matched pair and balanced. I put them in V1 of a 1987x Marshall. It worked fine the last day. Then today after I got back I tried turning the amp on and there was no sound. So I checked the back and low and behold, the yellow print Mullard had a bit of a white tint on it. It definitely looked blown. I tried to take it out and noticed that the base was even cracked. It was still a bit hot when I touched it. 

I put in the other yellow print Mullard and it works. 

Just wonderng what the heck happened here. Could it be the amp or the preamp tube. Cause I do remember the tube cutting in and out a while back too.

Is it also really bad to play the amp at high volume when the tube in V1 is broken? 

Let me know what the heck happened??!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some of the European made tubes (including British) could have a thin glass base. RFT's are bad about his and some Mullards. In the tube process, where the base is put on, the amount of molten glass may be at a minimum. When the glass is shaped around the pins and attached to the glass cylinder, it is thinner than it should be. Once put to use, it can crack around the pins when it is removed. The white color you see means the vacuum was breached. 

When removing tubes, especially expensive one's, make sure to lightly rock them back and forth with a strong upward pulling motion.

Sorry to hear you lost a Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey PaoloJM! You're welcome here anytime. Yeah this is our little forum inside the forum. We've been here so long that we even joke around and try to have some fun.

Yes, we have all experimented with 5751's and I recommend them a lot to certain players. We have even used 12AT7's in V1, but most of the time they are used as the PI tube. A lot of people who use a 5751 will say that they don't really hear a loss in the gain of the amp. However, like you have said, they find it to be quieter and the amp has more clean headroom.

Most of us like to run a 7025 in V1. This has the quietness of a 5751 with the gain factor of a 12AX7. We usually go with a medium gain 7025 in V1 and a high gain tube like an Amperex, Mullard or RCA/Raytheon Black Plate in V2. We then use current production or Sylvania's in V3 and V4.

Personally, if all I had were Sylvania's, I'd be more than 100 per cent satisfied with using them. I think they are a solid tube. If someone is trying to get into NOS tubes, a quad of Sylvania 12AX7's can be had for $60 to $70. That's cheaper than buying current production. Now if Sylvania hadn't made tubes longer than everyone else, it would be a highly sought after tube, but they made 12AX7's until 1984 and then Philips bought them out and they made tubes under the ECG brand for four more years. So if you buy a Philips ECG 12AX7, it is really a Sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

FYI-I have heard the rumblings for a while and I want to let you know that a company by the name of Richardson has bought the rights to "Amperex" and "Bugle Boy." This is a Chicago base company. 

Richardson is now selling tubes called Amperex Bugle Boy's for quite a stiff price. NOTICE: These are Russian and Chinese tubes that are "hand selected" by Richardson. This is just another variation of TAD. Hand selected Russian or Chinese tubes are still nothing compared to a real Amperex.

Just thought I would pass this on, since the HiFi forums are buzzing about these tubes.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Some of the European made tubes (including British) could have a thin glass base. RFT's are bad about his and some Mullards. In the tube process, where the base is put on, the amount of molten glass may be at a minimum. When the glass is shaped around the pins and attached to the glass cylinder, it is thinner than it should be. Once put to use, it can crack around the pins when it is removed. The white color you see means the vacuum was breached.
> 
> When removing tubes, especially expensive one's, make sure to lightly rock them back and forth with a strong upward pulling motion.
> 
> Sorry to hear you lost a Mullard.



Yep, the tube was cracked at the base. I was worried when taking it out cause you could hear the grinding of glass (didn't know the glass broke but after pulling it out saw that the grinding noise was coming from that).

BTW, the guy who sold it to me was super nice. I told him about it and he's going to send a another Mullard White print and let me know if he can find another yellow print Mullard (I like those the best at least for now, they give a slightly more saturated crunch and hold the notes longer). The yellow prints are my favorite at least for now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Is the seller going to give you another tube for free? Or is he charging you for it? Most sellers remove themselves from all liability once a tube has been sold. If he is giving you another tube, he really is a nice guy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

PaoloJM said:


> Hey guys, only spotted this thread now. Hope you don't mind me butting in!!
> 5751s are a great little tube for many applications. In a high guitar amp it really helps to reduce fizz and noise. I put one in V1 of a 5150 and it really cut some of the mush and reduced the noise levels, even my girlfriend noticed the difference!! The amp became quieter and more articulate.
> I'll be some samples on my soundclick page of the same amp with a 12AX7 in V1 versus a 5751.
> 
> Marty, you seem to have an encyclopedic knowledge of NOS valves and valve in general, very impressive. Some of those valve types I've never even heard of. Looking forward to reading back through this.
> 
> PS: I'm a big Sylvania valve fan too!!



Hey I just read a long article by a supposedly well known audiophile and he talks about all the best 12AX7's from around the world. Then he goes on to say that he wouldn't use any of them in his tube stereo equipment. Not a Telefunken, Mullard or Amperex. His tube of choice, any American made 5751's.

All I can say is that's his decision, not mine. I know that a lot of people use 5751's in the first stage of their preamps, but even more use top rated 12AX7's. If I had to make a choice, I would say that smooth plate Telefunken's are the most sought after by "HiFi users." This in turn translates into a lot of guitar player's using Telefunken's in their amps, at least in V1.

The beauty of NOS tubes in a guitar amp is that the "sound stage" isn't as critical. You can use a tube in a guitar amp that may not cut it in a HiFi amp. You can get away with a little bit more tube noise, whereas in a HiFi amp you would hear it.

Tubes are as unique as those who use them. Every tube lover has a certain brand or combination of tubes that results in "the" sound. 

Every time I stick a new old stock tube in my amp I just smile. I like them all. They work, they were built well and they sound good.

I like 5751's. My comments were not to "knock" the 5751. Rather, I was knocking this guy's article, because he was condemning all 12AX7 tubes. The bottom line is that a 5751 tube came out much later than a 12AX7 and was built with three mica spacers instead of two. It also had very rigid posts connecting the spacers together. This made the tube extremely quiet and very durable. I have always wondered why they never used this manufacturing process to build later versions of the 12AX7?


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! Is the seller going to give you another tube for free? Or is he charging you for it? Most sellers remove themselves from all liability once a tube has been sold. If he is giving you another tube, he really is a nice guy.



Yep, that's right Marty. I was surprised at first cause no one has ever done that at least for me and I've read alot of feedback from different buyers for other sellers, but i always hear something like:

"(item) broke and doesn't work. No refund." Or 
"(item) broke got a refund."

That's about how far most sellers will go. But this guy went all the way out to say that he'd send me a FREE tube and Mullard at that too. That is incredible in my books. He just asked me for my name and shipping address and now it's on it's way. No wonder he has thousands of transactions with a 100% feedback. WOW!!

But you also have to bear in mind that I let him know before that there were a few things like the signal cutting in and out. Then the tube finally cracked and I let him know asap.

One thing for sure I'd buy from him again in no time.


----------



## Jae

I was testing out a couple of makes (Mullard yellow print and Brimar 12ax7s.) 

The guy I bought the Brimar off says that they are BETTER than Mullards. I guess it may be in terms of hi-fi audio equipment.

The amp used was a 1987x Plexi reissue head through a 1X12 mesa cab.
The control was a Mullard at V2 and another at V3, with V1 interchanged between the Mullard and Brimar.

Here is what i found:

Mullard Yellow Print (12ax7):
-bright and a little bit more gain and grit
-tons of sustain with a bit more crisp and clear sounding harmonic overtones, notes ring out longer and the treble tail is there
-a tad bit noiser

Brimar (12ax7):
-darker sounding
-sound was a bit more on the bassy side with ALOT more mids.
-shorter sustain and treble tail end
-Very quiet


My conclusion:
The Mullard was a bit more musical when it comes to more gain and just playing leads with alot of hammer ons and pull offs.
The Brimar was fit for more of a jazzier tone with more mids and bass.

I personally preferred the Mullard on this one. But I'd have to try it on a different amp and maybe the Brimar will win on that one. next amp I'd try it on is the '78 JMP Masterlead.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, but there is one thing you need to keep in mind. If you have two exact RCA 12AX7's, they are not going to perform the same and might even sound different. This applies to all tubes. That's why tubes have to be matched. Out of twenty, you get four that are a match and then you take the other 16 and try to find matches for them. 

One of the main things you have to take into consideration is transconductance. This is what you go by when matching tubes. This is basically the gain of the tube. A 12AX7 should have a gain factor of 100-100. However, some might have 81-85 and another might have 112-118. When you have a tube tester, you can rate the gain on any given tube. On my tester, 22-22 represents a new nominal tube. However, by the time you get to 30-30, you have a very high gain tube. So a little change in the test number represents a large change in the gain. A difference of 8 points makes the difference from a medium gain to a high gain.

The gain of the tube will affect how the tube sounds. Now if you stick with the Mullards, you will get that basic Mullard sound, but a high gain Mullard is going to sound different than a medium gain Mullard.

I just didn't want you to think that the same tubes will sound "exactly" the same. There is variation between tubes.

The matching is more important for power tubes. HiFi equipment needs matched preamp tubes as well, but in a guitar you can get away with three or four preamp tubes that are not that matched. On guitar amps you want to have power tubes matched between 3 and 5 per cent.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, but there is one thing you need to keep in mind. If you have two exact RCA 12AX7's, they are not going to perform the same and might even sound different. This applies to all tubes. That's why tubes have to be matched. Out of twenty, you get four that are a match and then you take the other 16 and try to find matches for them.
> 
> One of the main things you have to take into consideration is transconductance. This is what you go by when matching tubes. This is basically the gain of the tube. A 12AX7 should have a gain factor of 100-100. However, some might have 81-85 and another might have 112-118. When you have a tube tester, you can rate the gain on any given tube. On my tester, 22-22 represents a new nominal tube. However, by the time you get to 30-30, you have a very high gain tube. So a little change in the test number represents a large change in the gain. A difference of 8 points makes the difference from a medium gain to a high gain.
> 
> The gain of the tube will affect how the tube sounds. Now if you stick with the Mullards, you will get that basic Mullard sound, but a high gain Mullard is going to sound different than a medium gain Mullard.
> 
> I just didn't want you to think that the same tubes will sound "exactly" the same. There is variation between tubes.
> 
> The matching is more important for power tubes. HiFi equipment needs matched preamp tubes as well, but in a guitar you can get away with three or four preamp tubes that are not that matched. On guitar amps you want to have power tubes matched between 3 and 5 per cent.



Hey Marty,

Thanks for the info. I'm still new to the preamp tube world. Yes, I did keep in mind that two of the same Mullards may sound different. I know this is not a fair comparison by any means. 
I wanted to find a distinct quality about each type of tube, like a Mullard sounds generally like this or a Brimar sounds generally like this. but then again that may not be a very fair comparison. I just got a very basic test to see or find a distinct character for each type of tube. 

So Marty, I'm actually looking for a high gain tube for V1. So you're saying that the higher the transconductance the higher the gain, right? So I should generally be looking for a tube that measures high on both sides even though they aren't matched?

I'll have to try out a huge bunch of Mullards or Brimars to get a general opinion of what the makes sound like.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in an ideal situation, the 12AX7 will have two perfect triodes. A 12AX7 is actually two tubes inside one glass envelope. If on my tester, a B and K 707, a 12AX7 reads 23-25, that is still a pretty close match and will work well in a guitar amp. However, if it measures 24-30, this is a lopsided tube and you would have to use it in say V3 (Tone Stack circuit). The Phase Inverter does not have to be a perfect match as many believe. In fact, in a Marshall amp you can use a lopsided tube and it will work fine. You would have to use a 12DW7 in the PI to make it sound out of phase, but some harmonica players do this as they like the live sound.

On my tester, a tube like 30-28, 29-29 or 28-30 all represents high gainers. I have found going past 33 will end up being to much gain if you can believe that. Remember, we have our amps set up with a medium gain in V1 and a high gain in V2. One of my amps has a hotter V1 and a high gain in V2. The clean channel is not as clean, in fact it is crunchy. However, if you want high gain, this amp delivers with all of the squealing harmonics that a player could want.


----------



## Jae

Hey, I saw some Mullard 12ax7s called CV4004. These are supposedly NOS and matched. The guy says they are for the military and the highest quality and most sought after. What do you know about these ones?

Tube one measures at 16500/16500
Tube two measures 16600/16700

Is this a good pair and worth the cash?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey, I saw some Mullard 12ax7s called CV4004. These are supposedly NOS and matched. The guy says they are for the military and the highest quality and most sought after. What do you know about these ones?
> 
> Tube one measures at 16500/16500
> Tube two measures 16600/16700
> 
> Is this a good pair and worth the cash?



That's a matched pair and yes the CV4004 are the military version of an ECC83. What kind of tube tester did he use? Did he say? Oh, the most sought after Mullard's are called 10M's. They are very rare. They were designed to last over 10,000 hours.

What price is he asking? Where is the buyer located?


----------



## Jae

Not sure what kind of tester he used.
It may be on the site.

I saw this one on ebay for about $150US. I think it's a good deal. I saw some other NOS NIB for over $200.

I saw a 10m on ebay before too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

$80 a piece. Wow! That's sort of pricey. I can't believe the price that some people ask for their tubes. It's like they are selling a kidney or something. I'm too tired to check the price listings. I guess if I did it would be in that range. 

That's why I don't buy tubes like that. Yeah, their NOS tubes and I really like NOS tubes, but there are so many other choices. I would rather buy 6 Amperex tubes for $180 than two 4004's for $160. However, I am a tube seller and I have hundreds of tubes, so my attitude towards buying is going to be a lot different than someone buying NOS for themselves.

I will say that you have good taste in tubes, both power and pre's and you aren't afraid to drop some $$$ to get them. Go for it.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> $80 a piece. Wow! That's sort of pricey. I can't believe the price that some people ask for their tubes. It's like they are selling a kidney or something. I'm too tired to check the price listings. I guess if I did it would be in that range.
> 
> That's why I don't buy tubes like that. Yeah, their NOS tubes and I really like NOS tubes, but there are so many other choices. I would rather buy 6 Amperex tubes for $180 than two 4004's for $160. However, I am a tube seller and I have hundreds of tubes, so my attitude towards buying is going to be a lot different than someone buying NOS for themselves.
> 
> I will say that you have good taste in tubes, both power and pre's and you aren't afraid to drop some $$$ to get them. Go for it.



Yep, I agree that they are pricey. I can't believe there are other guys selling for much more. I have to say that right now I'm going off the advice I get from different people including you.

I guess after a while you hear this tube is good, or that one is, and you just see for yourself and try them and see if you like them or not. I'm also trying different tubes that are not in the Mullard range but NOS and maybe I'll end up liking them more while still saving a few bucks.

I really like the Sylvanias though. Like you said they are great tubes for less and still NOS. I've become pretty crazy about tubes lately so I'm checking ebay any chance I get to see a good deal or a really good tube. I'll let you know what I come up with.


----------



## Jesstaa

Jae said:


> Yep, that's right Marty. I was surprised at first cause no one has ever done that at least for me and I've read alot of feedback from different buyers for other sellers, but i always hear something like:
> 
> "(item) broke and doesn't work. No refund." Or
> "(item) broke got a refund."
> 
> That's about how far most sellers will go. But this guy went all the way out to say that he'd send me a FREE tube and Mullard at that too. That is incredible in my books. He just asked me for my name and shipping address and now it's on it's way. No wonder he has thousands of transactions with a 100% feedback. WOW!!
> 
> But you also have to bear in mind that I let him know before that there were a few things like the signal cutting in and out. Then the tube finally cracked and I let him know asap.
> 
> One thing for sure I'd buy from him again in no time.



Damn, he does sound good.

What other stuff's he got up?

And I've probably asked this before, but are Aussie made tubes any good? Guessing we had an RCA plant because I have a couple of miniature radio tubes made by RCA with "Made in Australia" on them, I also have a Phillips miniwatt that's made in Australia.

Hard to find a good supply of Aussie N.O.S stuff though, I've googled it a few times, no big suppliers, but there's probably a few dudes in Melbourne and Sydney sitting on a big collection.


----------



## Procter2812

I live near to blackburn... and my local music shop is working with TechTube.

TechTube brought some demos in to the shop whilst i was in.... they sounded really good but apparently you loose a little volume compared to the standard Groove Tube.

The shop is going to get some in and im gonna get one i think 

Alex


----------



## RobS

Electronic Valve and Tube Company in aus for tubes.


----------



## Jesstaa

Cheers Rob, looks like they don't have an Aussie made tubes though, which is what I'm looking for

And those guys have their prices a bit high for =C= don't you think? 

Svetlana Winged C tube pice list $400 AUD for a CP KT88 quad... No thanks.


----------



## RobS

Jessta,
Yep they are exy, thats why I get mine from Bob at Euro. Cost me less to get a matched quad of JJ6l6gc's + 12ax7's + Weber Bias rite + shipping and insurance than any supplier here in aus for just the tubes....ridiculous, but that's our tax system at work!
Seeing as though your'e in the Gippy area have a look at old TV repair shops if there are any near you.

By the way is the Hum still happening?

Rob


----------



## Jesstaa

RobS said:


> Jessta,
> Yep they are exy, thats why I get mine from Bob at Euro. Cost me less to get a matched quad of JJ6l6gc's + 12ax7's + Weber Bias rite + shipping and insurance than any supplier here in aus for just the tubes....ridiculous, but that's our tax system at work!
> Seeing as though your'e in the Gippy area have a look at old TV repair shops if there are any near you.
> 
> By the way is the Hum still happening?
> 
> Rob



I'll take a look around when I get the chance, and I don't think I'll be going eurotubes again, last time I got tubes off them I think they must've been not so matched.

And yeah, still got the hum, but in a couple of weeks I should have the new transformers and caps, then I'll take it up to Melbourne, have the new shit installed, then have them go over it and make sure everything else is fine


----------



## Procter2812

Hey... has anyone tried the Harma range of valves?? They make an ECC83/7025 which seems pretty good

Most of all are they reliable/tonally awesome 

Alex


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Hey... has anyone tried the Harma range of valves?? They make an ECC83/7025 which seems pretty good
> 
> Most of all are they reliable/tonally awesome
> 
> Alex



We had a big discussion on these somewhere in this massive thread. My feelings is that they are heavy on the cyro treatment of tubes. They also use the tubes from other companies to freeze. They do not make their own tube so they are like the "new" Amperex (Chinese tubes), or TAD (Chinese tubes). I will say that their prices are reasonable for a cyro tube. However, I'm not much of a believer in that. I mean old NOS tubes that are 45 years old do not have to be frozen to sound good.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are a few mobile phone camera pics of last Saturday's tube hunt. This is the spot where I found the Tung-Sol 12BH7 and the Mullard EZ81. I don't think there's another usable tube in the place. This coming Saturday is the estate auction with the "Old Radio Tube Box (RCA)" listing. Yes, I still have my fingers crossed.














They also had a box of power tubes. I found 3 boxes of JAN 6AC7s. I had to do a double-take. I took the liberty of unwrapping one. It was a short metal bottle. If those middle two digits had been transposed... I believe that's one of them in the lower right corner of the 3rd pic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Trust me, I haven't forgotten about the big tech box full of tubes.


----------



## Jae

Wow! Tube heaven.

Today in my mail I got a Mullard 7025A. I don't know if it's because the paint came off, but it doesn't say mullard on it nor even looks like a Mullard. Anyone know about these?

I also got three matched Sylvania 12ax7s. Three of them are balanced and one is off by one on both side. They sound really good and I got them for about $50.

Next I got two matched Sylvania 12ax7s NOS. 

Please read "Power Tubes, who, what, when where how" for my next and last treasure in the mail!


----------



## Jae

Is this a Mullard 12ax7? I found this in my mail today.


----------



## RobS

Jesstaa said:


> And yeah, still got the hum, but in a couple of weeks I should have the new transformers and caps, then I'll take it up to Melbourne, have the new shit installed, then have them go over it and make sure everything else is fine



Electric Factory in Plenty Rd Preston is the Marshall distributor for Australia. They also have a service dept there and warrant the work they do.

try them for transformers/caps. But I'm pretty sure they will only warrant the work if they supply the parts.

Rob


----------



## Jesstaa

Is their repair work expensive?

By the looks of their stock prices, they will be o.0

$3500 for a 2203X o.0

$1800 for a 1960AV

$3000 for a 4100 RI xD


----------



## RobS

They are wholesalers to the Aus music Industry however thier service dept is where all Marshall warranty claims get fixed. You cannot buy amps/cabs directly from them, however things like tolex, tubes, caps, tranny's and speaker grille...yes(from service/parts dept).
By the way, Marshall prices in Aus went up not too long ago. That's from a friend who works in a Music shop in Melb.


----------



## Jesstaa

Guessing they'd only replace the trannys with the same shit it came with then.

I'll probably just bring my own transformers then, so I can at least have a warranty on the caps/everything else.

Edit: Wait, because their warranty thing doesn't cover parts not provided by them, if they were to install the transformers, then have it blow up half the amp, would they take the blame? If not, I'll bash them over the head with every Marshall they own.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a picture of the RCA box from the auctioneer. I was hoping for more detail. Looks like it's mostly 9-pin tubes, unless there's something hiding underneath that panel.


----------



## Procter2812

These chinese valves are shit!.... Iv gone through yet another ECC83 (Marshall) because it was slightly microphonic and was chopping the sound up and loosing the signal.

Im bidding on some yellow label Mullards so hopefully the will be finding their way into my 2203!! along with a 7025 Harma!

Alex


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know the Yellow Mullard's will sound good. Let us know how the Harma 7025 works out. I use a lot of 7025's, the best being the short plate models. I lucked out and got a hold of six GE, short black plate 7025's. They are a really fantastic tube in V1. (But of course you already knew that since you have read all the pages of this thread.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Is this a Mullard 12ax7? I found this in my mail today.



What do you mean by that? Someone gave you a free tube? 

It looks like a Mullard and the code info at the bottom states it was made at the Blackburn plant. Stick it in your amp and turn it on to see if the base of the tube flashes. You'll know it's a Mullard for sure. Anyway, based on my personal experience, yes, it's a Mullard.


----------



## zimske

hey guys, it's me again. finally got my amp retubed and when i got the old preamp tubes out, found one that got me really interested... the labels are mostly worn out, but one one it says 7025 in little rectangular frame with USA label above it. that's about all that's left of the label. can somebody shed some more light on this one?

on the other two tubes the labels are completely scratched off, so i wonder if there's any way they could be ID'd, just, y'know, visually?

i can post some photos if they could be IDable this way...


----------



## RiverRatt

The one with the number in a rectangle sounds like an RCA. Post a pic of the others. I'm sure someone can identify them by their construction.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah post some good pics if you can. We love pics of old tubes. The 7025 you have is an RCA. If it is still in good shape, it is a damn nice tube, especially for V1. 

Do the other tubes have any etchings on them? Generally a tube had markings that would rub off, but they also had etchings in the glass. Do you see any dots or "USA" etched into the glass? If not, they are probably just newer tubes with the labels worn off.


----------



## zimske

there are some, um, smudges on one of them that could be helpful... anyway, i'll post some photos some time tomorrow for you guys to see. 

rca you say? damn, that's kinda nice.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> What do you mean by that? Someone gave you a free tube?
> 
> It looks like a Mullard and the code info at the bottom states it was made at the Blackburn plant. Stick it in your amp and turn it on to see if the base of the tube flashes. You'll know it's a Mullard for sure. Anyway, based on my personal experience, yes, it's a Mullard.



Thanks Marty,

It's one I purchased off ebay. I meant to say it arrived in my mail.

So you're saying that if the base flashes, it's a Mullard?
I noticed also that the Sylvania's flash too when you put them in.


----------



## Jae

Here are a few of the Mullards I got at the moment. I also have had a couple more and some Telefunkens but sold them.

Some are still in my amps, so I didn't take them out. I hope you can see them.






As you can see the two Yellow print Mullards. The one on the right is what happened  but the guy is sending another one to me for free, so I'm happy about that. The one on the very right is a Mullard I believe, I posted it before.

I personally like the Yellow print. Not sure if it's this particular one, but it's got that gain I like. Of course no two Mullards are the same. Too bad the other of the pair cracked


----------



## MartyStrat54

That one looks like an ice cream cone. Boy it really cracked. The barium in the getter turns white. Like I say, never buy a white tube, they're shit.

Well you certainly have a nice collection of tubes. One's that are a step above the ordinary. Now if you have Sylvania's that flash on the base, those are relabeled Sylvania's not uncommon in your neck of the woods. Check the top of the tube and compare it to your Mullards. Look at the plate design and compare that to your Mullards. Sylvania never made a USA tube that flashed in the base.


----------



## invertedjesus

quoting this from another thread because this dude is looking for the exact same thing I've been looking for, except I have a JCM 800 instead of a JMP. I wish I had the time to read through this entire thread.




kmeth012 said:


> All right, this one might sound a little nerdy, but I need some help from some of you pros on picking preamp tubes for my 78 JMP 2203 MV. Here is my logic:
> 
> V1: tung-sol 12ax7- I'm looking for lots of gain with clarity
> V2: open for suggestion
> PI: Sovtek 12ax7lps- for additional clarity and gain.
> 
> 
> I'm pushing the front end with a ts808 and high output humbuckers (BKP nailbombs). I want lots of gain on tap with musical sparkle and clarity when chords are played out. I have tung sol el34b's in the output section with 2 tubes pulled. I have GT12ax7's in the preamp now and want some change.
> 
> Now I'm open for suggestion on all three positions, but here is my question..
> I understand Phase inverters are important because it is in this position that the preamp signal get broken down into the outputs section. I've been told that the long plate 12ax7 (ie sovtek) are recommended, but is my logic correct in assuming that I should put in a 12at7 because it has less gain but more output spilling over into the output.. resulting in truer tone?
> 
> Will NOS accomplish some of the higher gain tones I'm looking for?
> Also, are gold pin versions worth the extra few bucks?


----------



## Jae

invertedjesus said:


> quoting this from another thread because this dude is looking for the exact same thing I've been looking for, except I have a JCM 800 instead of a JMP. I wish I had the time to read through this entire thread.



Nos are good and better sounding to me. For the extra info I'd say wait for Marty. He'll tell you everything there is to know.


----------



## invertedjesus

whoops. not specifically looking at NOS. just anything that'll sound great without sacrificing high gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

invertedjesus said:


> quoting this from another thread because this dude is looking for the exact same thing I've been looking for, except I have a JCM 800 instead of a JMP. I wish I had the time to read through this entire thread.



Not a problem. There are several of us that can help you. Could you tell me more about the styles/guitarist's you like? Also, what is your main guitar, humbucker or single coil? Do you want to use both? What speakers are in your main cab? How old and what kind of power tubes do you use?

Fill me in on that and I can give you some suggestions on what Pre tubes to use. They will be NOS or ANOS tubes. We only recommend CP (current production) tubes in V3 and V4. However, a true commitment to NOS is best and that means running all NOS. In the 800, you only have to worry about three pre tubes.

Get back to me with the info.


----------



## Jae

Yes Marty, you're right. The Sylvanias don't flash. I must have put the unlabelled Mullard in mistaking that for a Sylvania.

BTW, here are some NOS Sylvania 12ax7s. These were closely matched sold as a quad. I found these to sound quite good. These ones in particular don't have that extra grind like the other Mullards I have, but the notes come out very clear and precise and it doesn't sound muddy or too bassy. I like to put these in V2, with the Mullard in V1.






The next pic is a matched pair NOS Sylvania from a guy all the way from Germany. These sound really good too. Again, the notes ring very clear and clean.






I have a question? Can you tell what the tube is on the left? Sorry, it's hard to tell from the picture.






I've put it next to a Mullard for comparison purposes. I think it is either an RCA or GE, because it doesn't flash. Or it even could be a Sylvania. It came with the Superlead I have. It reads exactly like this:
12
AX
7
A
USA

and it's got some dots in a sort of pattern under that.


----------



## invertedjesus

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not a problem. There are several of us that can help you. Could you tell me more about the styles/guitarist's you like? Also, what is your main guitar, humbucker or single coil? Do you want to use both? What speakers are in your main cab? How old and what kind of power tubes do you use?
> 
> Fill me in on that and I can give you some suggestions on what Pre tubes to use. They will be NOS or ANOS tubes. We only recommend CP (current production) tubes in V3 and V4. However, a true commitment to NOS is best and that means running all NOS. In the 800, you only have to worry about three pre tubes.
> 
> Get back to me with the info.



I have some legit recordings with my band that I'll include a link to (not expecting feedback on the tone/the writing/whatever, but it'll give you an idea on what i'm playing). I hate to say that I'm going for a gainier "Slayer" worship sound, but thats really all I can think of.

Main guitar is an Epiphone LP Custom with a 490T humbucker in the bridge. I'm going to be using a Gibson SG-X with (hopefully) a Dirty Fingers p/u in it as well. Probably won't ever use single coils, so that isn't an issue. JCM 800 cab, with Celestion 65s in it. 6550 tubes, don't know how old they are, and two of them don't have markings on them. I'll be getting a matched quad of Electro Harmonix 6550s in them as soon as I can afford them.

Much appreciated, by the way.


----------



## solarburn

invertedjesus said:


> whoops. not specifically looking at NOS. just anything that'll sound great without sacrificing high gain.



I like the LPS in the PI just as much as any of my NOS. Thats the slot for that Sovtec. I don't use any other Sovtec tube because of sterileness.

The Tung Sol is a good choice but if we are going CP and you want high gain I would recommend Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ in V1 & V2. I've actually used the AC-5 and find they have good gain characteristics:

Low noise, low microphonics. Most suitable for V1 and other intial gain stages.

Now I use NOS but I will use CP as well whenever I want. I like experimenting. The NOS I have I would say are more to my liking for what I play and handle voltages better than CP tubes. This means you can put them in a cathode follower stage and be fine cause it will handle the voltage.

I've rolled alot of tubes and have some great NOS tone packs that are my fav. I don't mind throw'n together tone packs using CP though. Some are pretty good. Tung Sol, Mullard RI(bit of a lower gain one)and the Chinese AC5's are some of my favorite CP tubes. 

The only way to really know is try them out. There is only so many ways to say a tube is good or bad. Sooner or later ya just got to put it in your amp and see. I've done this and have found some good ones. More so than bad ones cause I listen to what amp guys are referencing there tube tones from and what kind of music they play to fiddles, pick ups and speakers.

Now go buy some tubes and find what ones work best for you. You won't have to spend your paycheck if you pace yourself hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well thanks for the description. I had it figured out, but I wasn't 100 per cent and then I realized you had put some additional info on the post.

Yeah, it's a GE. They have the bold print and the dots.

Hey, I know who you bought your Sylvania's off of. Was it "MeanMason?" Those are his stickers. And let me tell you a story. He uses an emissions tube tester. This makes all of his tubes test at the top. On my tube tester, his tubes can be marked the same, say 129-129 (out of 130) and on my mutual conductance tester one will read 24-26 and the other will read 29-28. Emissions testers are not very accurate. That's another trick you will learn about bidding on tubes; getting familiar with the better tube testers so you can believe the test results.

Now those Sylvania's are all good. MeanMason doesn't sell bad tubes. I'm just saying that there is no way that someone has almost perfect NOS tubes for every listing. I will say that if you can win a quad of his Raytheon Black Plates, do it. He pulls all of his tubes from old organs. That's where they all come from. They will usually have the organ company's name on the tube. However, you can tell if it is a Sylvania or a Raytheon or even an RCA.

Happy tube hunting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great job JOE! Damn, you're good. I was going to recommend the RUBY 7025SS for V1 and an AC5 for V2. You have more experience with the Sovtek LPS and you speak highly of it, so I think it gets the PI slot. 

So there you have it. A couple of slightly different ways to go with CP tubes.

Just remember to ask for high gain tubes when ordering. I don't think you are going to worry to much about a clean sound, so I would get high gainers for both V1 and V2 and let that 800 kicks some arse!


----------



## invertedjesus

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great job JOE! Damn, you're good. I was going to recommend the RUBY 7025SS for V1 and an AC5 for V2. You have more experience with the Sovtek LPS and you speak highly of it, so I think it gets the PI slot.
> 
> So there you have it. A couple of slightly different ways to go with CP tubes.
> 
> Just remember to ask for high gain tubes when ordering. I don't think you are going to worry to much about a clean sound, so I would get high gainers for both V1 and V2 and let that 800 kicks some arse!



Awesome, thanks for all the suggestions! I've found all of those, save the 7025SS... can't seem to find any places that sell them. not sure if you know of anywhere that does.


----------



## solarburn

invertedjesus said:


> Awesome, thanks for all the suggestions! I've found all of those, save the 7025SS... can't seem to find any places that sell them. not sure if you know of anywhere that does.



12AX7 Preamp Tubes

If he doesn't have them ask him where to get them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy has a Ruby 7025, but it doesn't say "SS." He wants $20 for it. Go to:

Guitar Tubes

Scroll down the page to the 7025 tubes.

Man, this guy is selling Ei and 1991 "NOS Chinese" 12AX7 Golden Dragons for $45 to $55 dollars. Holy Horse Crap! At that price you can get real tubes. He is selling 1950's RCA Black Plate 5751's for $150 a piece. This guy is something else...or I'm an idiot.


----------



## Procter2812

Well i won the Mullard Yellow Print.... cost me £23?? yeah better be worth it.... haha my grandad used to work at the blackburn factory and he was telling me you cant beat mullard valves... we shall see

Alex


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy has a Ruby 7025, but it doesn't say "SS." He wants $20 for it. Go to:
> 
> Guitar Tubes
> 
> Scroll down the page to the 7025 tubes.
> 
> Man, this guy is selling Ei and 1991 "NOS Chinese" 12AX7 Golden Dragons for $45 to $55 dollars. Holy Horse Crap! At that price you can get real tubes. He is selling 1950's RCA Black Plate 5751's for $150 a piece. This guy is something else...or I'm an idiot.



I think this guy may be a bit greedy?:eek2:

I'm think'n.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy has a Ruby 7025, but it doesn't say "SS." He wants $20 for it. Go to:
> 
> Guitar Tubes
> 
> Scroll down the page to the 7025 tubes.
> 
> Man, this guy is selling Ei and 1991 "NOS Chinese" 12AX7 Golden Dragons for $45 to $55 dollars. Holy Horse Crap! At that price you can get real tubes. He is selling 1950's RCA Black Plate 5751's for $150 a piece. This guy is something else...or I'm an idiot.



Crap. That is alot for chinese tubes.


----------



## Jae

Procter2812 said:


> Well i won the Mullard Yellow Print.... cost me £23?? yeah better be worth it.... haha my grandad used to work at the blackburn factory and he was telling me you cant beat mullard valves... we shall see
> 
> Alex



I really like the yellow prints. Not sure if there is a real difference between the wite prints, but the ones I had sounded really good. To me they had that extra gain.

Wow, that must be good to have a granddad work at the Blackburn. Does/did he have any good tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Well i won the Mullard Yellow Print.... cost me £23?? yeah better be worth it.... haha my grandad used to work at the blackburn factory and he was telling me you cant beat mullard valves... we shall see
> 
> Alex



Well, for the full Mullard flavor, you will want to run it in V1. However, if it is a high gainer (no way to know unless you have a tube tester), then you will want to put it in V2. You can get away with putting a high gainer in V1 as long as you re not concerned about having a real clean channel. A high gainer in V1 can actually make the clean channel a little crunchy. 

Sorry that you paid so much for it. I usually don't go that high for one tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just like WalMart we are here to serve you 24/7. We have a highly trained staff and some of us go to sleep when the other half is getting up. This rotation of employee's allows us to provide the type of service you demand from us.

Please note: We have expanded to two threads to serve you better.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...who-what-when-where-why-how-38.html#post59284

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/7951-power-tubes-who-what-when-where-how.html

Preamp tubes as usual are available from Marty for a lot less than most online stores. Send him a PM if you need high quality preamp tubes.

Again, thank you for your patronage. We hope to see you again soon.

1500 JOE


----------



## Procter2812

Jae said:


> I really like the yellow prints. Not sure if there is a real difference between the wite prints, but the ones I had sounded really good. To me they had that extra gain.
> 
> Wow, that must be good to have a granddad work at the Blackburn. Does/did he have any good tubes?



Strangely enough no!!! iv asked him god knows how many times haha

Im not too fussed about paying that much for that valve... if it sounds good... then 

Iv just come back from practice and have again had to swap around v1 and v2 (V1=Marshall Valve-V2=JJ) because the marshall piece of shit was yes... microphonic and leaving the wicked ghost note behind the notes...

Cant wait to get this mullard and Harma 7025... im gonna put the mullard in v1 harma in v2 and a jj in v3 then replace that with a white label mullard..


After reading this thread iv fully understood what pre-amp valves do and how they change my sound!

Marty + Gang = legends!

Alex


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just got in an eight lot of Telefunken Smooth Plates. All test around 25-25. They were Steve Wingate's tubes who was the president and chief designer for Wingate Audio Co. Wingate made world class amps back in the 1980s. 

Well I got the tubes and they didn't have the diamond on the bottom, but I didn't care. They are RFT's made to Telefunken's specifications. At $21 a piece I think I can live with that.

Note: Steve was making his amps in the early 80's and Telefunken had already stopped making small signal tubes like the ECC83. It was all farmed out to good old RFT. What would we do without them?


----------



## Jesstaa

Hey Marty, just spotted this on ebay;
Vintage Parts and Accessories for Mullard Valve Radio - eBay Parts, Accessories, Radio, Radio, Gramophone, Phone, Collectables. (end time 14-Sep-09 20:31:58 AEST)

I'd buy it (But I don't have any money/I don't have a tube tester) so you should keep your eye on it, might find something nice in there, and if the price stays about the same, could be a real deal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a big box of tubes and they look like mostly nine pin tubes. It would be nice to know what they are. A lot of radio tubes are of no use to a guitar amp. Plus, he's an Aussie and he really isn't keen on shipping. 

When I buy tubes, I like to buy at least four per listing, but I prefer six to eight tubes. This makes shipping more reasonable. I have a policy of where I do not blindly buy tubes. I need to know what brand they are, if they have been tested and whether they are ANOS, NOS or NIB. 

Right now I have over 450 12AX7 type tubes. This includes 12AU7's, 12AT7's, 5751's and 7025's.

I'm slowly building up my EL34 inventory. That's expensive.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just got in an eight lot of Telefunken Smooth Plates. All test around 25-25. They were Steve Wingate's tubes who was the president and chief designer for Wingate Audio Co. Wingate made world class amps back in the 1980s.
> 
> Well I got the tubes and they didn't have the diamond on the bottom, but I didn't care. They are RFT's made to Telefunken's specifications. At $21 a piece I think I can live with that.
> 
> Note: Steve was making his amps in the early 80's and Telefunken had already stopped making small signal tubes like the ECC83. It was all farmed out to good old RFT. What would we do without them?



Nice score. Since they are made to Telefunken's specification does that mean they are made to sound like a Tele Smooth plate? Even though they are RFT's because of the Telefunken specs they are not like what I have right?

Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

No Joe, these are completely different looking tubes versus the RFT ECC83. I'm sure that Tele shipped all the guts they had left over to RFT and told them, "That's how we made them. Now it's your turn."

Now a pure Tele purist would cry foul and I really don't care. A good tube is a good tube. The Japanese made damn good tubes for the American companies. In fact, I have said this before, NEC made several "special" 12AX7 tubes. They only made them for around two years. I have several of them, but they are difficult to find and usually go for $75 a piece.

I mean if I went to an online tube store and bought 8 used RFT's, how much do you think they would want?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No Joe, these are completely different looking tubes versus the RFT ECC83. I'm sure that Tele shipped all the guts they had left over to RFT and told them, "That's how we made them. Now it's your turn."
> 
> Now a pure Tele purist would cry foul and I really don't care. A good tube is a good tube. The Japanese made damn good tubes for the American companies. In fact, I have said this before, NEC made several "special" 12AX7 tubes. They only made them for around two years. I have several of them, but they are difficult to find and usually go for $75 a piece.
> 
> I mean if I went to an online tube store and bought 8 used RFT's, how much do you think they would want?



Cool. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding it being a whole different tube. 

When you get a deal like that isn't it better to be more flexible instead of rigid like a purist needs to be. You get to enjoy some nice tubes at $25 a pop.

Here is how much at one of the places I buy CP tubes at:

Telefunken 12AX7/ECC83

Smooth plate, fair or no lettering
$70

12AX7 Preamp Tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the truth of it is that the RFT tubes are newer production and therefore will usually test better. I think the last real Tele 12AX7 was made in the mid 70's. Also, we know about the diamond logo on the bottom, but 80 per cent of regular tube buyers do not. If you carefully read Tele ads you will see that a lot of the time they do not emphasis the diamond logo. Instead, they just say something like, "Mint quad of matched, smooth plate Telefunkens." Are they Telefunkens? Well the tube says they are, but they are RFT's. You got to watch those online sellers. Most people would buy these and go, "Cool, I bought me a Telefunken."


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well thanks for the description. I had it figured out, but I wasn't 100 per cent and then I realized you had put some additional info on the post.
> 
> Yeah, it's a GE. They have the bold print and the dots.
> 
> Hey, I know who you bought your Sylvania's off of. Was it "MeanMason?" Those are his stickers. And let me tell you a story. He uses an emissions tube tester. This makes all of his tubes test at the top. On my tube tester, his tubes can be marked the same, say 129-129 (out of 130) and on my mutual conductance tester one will read 24-26 and the other will read 29-28. Emissions testers are not very accurate. That's another trick you will learn about bidding on tubes; getting familiar with the better tube testers so you can believe the test results.
> 
> Now those Sylvania's are all good. MeanMason doesn't sell bad tubes. I'm just saying that there is no way that someone has almost perfect NOS tubes for every listing. I will say that if you can win a quad of his Raytheon Black Plates, do it. He pulls all of his tubes from old organs. That's where they all come from. They will usually have the organ company's name on the tube. However, you can tell if it is a Sylvania or a Raytheon or even an RCA.
> 
> Happy tube hunting.



Thanks Marty,

Yep I got them from meanmason. I'm still not very familiar with with the types of tube testers that give the most accurate results. I just go with the test values.
If they give me the minimum and the maximum readings for a new tube and the tube they are selling are above or close I go for it. I heard that the new tubes (NOS) should actually test above 100%. This other guy i know told me that back then a Mullard would in fact test above 100%. Is that true? I'm sure all of them don't, but it would be good to know.

Are there any good tube sellers (In your opinion) that you would recommend on ebay? I mean, they know their stuff and they give accurate descriptions and customer service.

There was one guy I thought sold really good tubes. I'll try to dig up the name. But he sold me a used Sylvania 6CA7 quad USA (I actually posted them on another thread and you've seen them). But when I got them they were in mint shape and I mean MINT. There were no burn marks on the top of the tubes and they looked brand new. The amp tech I took it to said they were really good tubes and I got a good quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You have been having great luck with you tube acquisitions. That's no joke. You are really getting a stash of some sweet tubes. I know the quad of tubes you are talking about. I had thought about bidding on them, but I went after some other EL34's. 

Hey, the main thing is to see if they are a Power Seller and have over 1500 sales. Also, check to see if they have a return policy. The good guys do. I had to return some tubes (again) to several buyers, because one of the tubes was shorting out after the heater had been on a while. The other tube was dead on one triode and good on the other. This was out of a set of five 7025's. Two RCA's, two original Tung-Sol's and one Amperex. Both RCA's were bad. I then had to more RCA 7025's that just tested too low and I just am not going to accept tubes like that anymore.

Yeah, it's nice to have the old tube tester. Peace of Mind.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> You have been having great luck with you tube acquisitions. That's no joke. You are really getting a stash of some sweet tubes. I know the quad of tubes you are talking about. I had thought about bidding on them, but I went after some other EL34's.
> 
> Hey, the main thing is to see if they are a Power Seller and have over 1500 sales. Also, check to see if they have a return policy. The good guys do. I had to return some tubes (again) to several buyers, because one of the tubes was shorting out after the heater had been on a while. The other tube was dead on one triode and good on the other. This was out of a set of five 7025's. Two RCA's, two original Tung-Sol's and one Amperex. Both RCA's were bad. I then had to more RCA 7025's that just tested too low and I just am not going to accept tubes like that anymore.
> 
> Yeah, it's nice to have the old tube tester. Peace of Mind.



The guy I bought it from is "Marantz7c" He's a power seller with a 100% rating. I have to say that he shipped real fast and packed it to death! Really good guy to deal with too. 

Another guy is "Paulghifi" He was the guy who sold me a yellow print and it cracked. He sent another Mullard for free and I didn't even ask him, but he did. 

These guys are power sellers with 100%, so I feel comfortable about their service. I guess also that these guys have gotten this far and don't want to ruin thier streak so they go out of thier way to make sure the customers are happy and don't leave negative feedback!

Still tube hunting!


----------



## Procter2812

Yeah  Got my Mullard Yellow Label Ecc83 today.... stuck it into my 800 in v1 and wowowowowowowowow

Genius!... The amp is so much less harsh and really musical... also has more gain that i anticipated.

Tapped the tube and no microphonics and is very low noise!

Just waiting for my Harma 7025 for v2 and il be rocking!!


Alex


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Yeah  Got my Mullard Yellow Label Ecc83 today.... stuck it into my 800 in v1 and wowowowowowowowow
> 
> Genius!... The amp is so much less harsh and really musical... also has more gain that i anticipated.
> 
> Tapped the tube and no microphonics and is very low noise!
> 
> Just waiting for my Harma 7025 for v2 and il be rocking!!
> 
> 
> Alex



See how much fun this shit is?!!!

Congrats man. NOS Mullards are nice. My DSL likes em' too. Interested to hear what ya think about the Harma.


The Raytheon Black Plate's thick mids drive me crazy.

Have your fun man and definitely tell about it.


----------



## Jae

Yeah, I tell you , the yellow prints are nice. I've got a few more on the way. 
My last one cracked, but they have the best sound for me. has plenty of gain, but again would depend on how well it reads.

I have one now that is supposedly perfectly balanced as the seller says. I haven't tested it myself, but it sounds amazing. That's why I'm getting a few more. 

I'm also going for the telefunken smooth plates.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I just got back from the auction with the RCA box in it. It had been picked clean. There were about 30 tubes in it. 4 of them were 12 volt 9-pin preamp tubes. There was an Arcturus (?) 12AZ7, a Tung-Sol 12AT7 (both of which looked like Raytheon black plates) and an RCA 12BH7 & 12AU7A. What a waste of time. I wouldn't have minded picking up the AT7 and AZ7, but I wasn't going to hang around for two hours and have to bid on them. I might have paid $5 to $10 for them. Everything else was some oddball 6 volt junk.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that sucks. What I hate about auctions is that the guy running the show usually bends over for certain people and this makes for an unfair advantage to other people wanting to bid. 

I was hoping that the caddy box would be loaded down with some American treasure. They're out there still. They're getting harder to find, but they're to be had. It's finding the right estate sale where the old man was a tube Hi Fi freak and there are boxes of tubes from the 70's.

Ahh, that would be so nice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Just waiting for my Harma 7025 for v2 and il be rocking!!
> 
> Alex



Glad you got your first A-Bomb for your amp. As Joe (SolarBurn) said, let us know what you think about the Harma 7025. I'm very interested in how it will sound.

When you get it, try putting it in V1 with the Mullard in V2 and see how that sounds, especially the Clean versus the Crunchy sound. For more of the Mullard flavor, put it back in V1. V1 dictates the flavor of the tone. That's why a Black Plate in V1 makes for a smoking blues tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> The guy I bought it from is "Marantz7c" He's a power seller with a 100% rating. I have to say that he shipped real fast and packed it to death! Really good guy to deal with too.
> 
> Another guy is "Paulghifi" He was the guy who sold me a yellow print and it cracked. He sent another Mullard for free and I didn't even ask him, but he did.
> 
> These guys are power sellers with 100%, so I feel comfortable about their service. I guess also that these guys have gotten this far and don't want to ruin thier streak so they go out of thier way to make sure the customers are happy and don't leave negative feedback!
> 
> Still tube hunting!



I've bought a few off of Marantz, but I've never ran across Paulghifi. There are so many tubes sellers on EBAY right now. Where the hell are all of these tubes coming from? I've been buying for three years and the supply is still there. For the most part, the prices have gone down by a few bucks. Man, there must be a lot of people looking for tubes. Organ shops, old TV repair shops, old Hi Fi collectors. There must be a lot out there still.

Yeah stick with the Power Sellers with the good feedback and return policy. You can't go wrong.


----------



## siav

Hi All!

I really love reading this topic.

I have purchased a two preamp tubes: JJ ECC83/12QX7 (in V2) and Tung-Sol ECC803/12AX7 Gold (in V1) that I have set on my JCM 2555SL.

I thought the gain would be really boosted, which is not really the case...
The sounds really better, but has a kind of fuzzy sound in the high end and I'd like to have more gain, such as the VM or 6100 series.

Can someone having experience in choosing preamp tubes for the 2555 series in order to have more gain?

NB: the demo here is the type of sound I'd like to get 
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDtyL4wRNrU]YouTube - Marshall Silver Jubilee 25/50[/ame]

Thanks for your help


----------



## Jae

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I just got back from the auction with the RCA box in it. It had been picked clean. There were about 30 tubes in it. 4 of them were 12 volt 9-pin preamp tubes. There was an Arcturus (?) 12AZ7, a Tung-Sol 12AT7 (both of which looked like Raytheon black plates) and an RCA 12BH7 & 12AU7A. What a waste of time. I wouldn't have minded picking up the AT7 and AZ7, but I wasn't going to hang around for two hours and have to bid on them. I might have paid $5 to $10 for them. Everything else was some oddball 6 volt junk.



Yeah, that sucks man. The guy must have taken all the good ones out before handing it over to you. I think the guy should have sold as is and not make any changes to the item(s) after posting it.

Another thing I found a bit annoying (maybe everyone here doesn't agree so please enlighten me if I missed anything), but the guys who have test readings and they don't put information or reference test reading for a brand new tube. This way it is easier to compare the actual reading of the tube being sold to what the reading would be if it were brand new. I guess some of the tubes might test alot lower than a average new tube reading. A new tube should always read above 100% or 100%. (that's what I heard, is that true?)

What I do see are people just posting the minimum test reading. Of course the tube is going to test above the minimum reading, making the tube look strong. I have to ask them what the maximum test reading would be for a new tube, or I just don't bid on them. I hate digging for information from some of them, when it would be better to just post such simple information on the auction.

In that case I just don't even bother now.

What do you think?


----------



## Jae

I found these on Ebay. It looks like the descripton is good.
The test readings are quite hugh way above a new reading. Does that make any sense?

I'll probably bid on these.

TWO TELEFUNKEN DIAMOND TUBES 12AX7 TEST EXC.ELLENT on eBay.ca (item 110431617555 end time 14-Sep-09 23:48:10 EDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rarely will you find two tubes that test that close together. I feel the seller is manipulating the numbers somewhat. Just remember, I have posted this before, as high test reading, if true, can end up not sounding good in an amp. I sent my friend Josh a 35-35 tube and it was too much in his Marshall. On all the tubes I have sold to various people, 31-31 would probably be the max. (Unless someone wants very high gain and doesn't care about the clean). 

I'm not saying a 1500-1550 tube would read above 31 on my tester, but if it does, the tube may be too hot. However, sometimes you just have to try them in the amp and see what happens. I mean, I have rolled a lot of tubes and I get surprised every once in a while with a tube that I think might be to hot.

If you can get them for what you feel is a fair price, do it. The smooth plates are the best ones. You use them in V1.


----------



## solarburn

Wish I had a $200 Raytheon BP...Sheesh!

JAN Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plate


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wish I had a $200 Raytheon BP...Sheesh!
> 
> JAN Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plate



I went ahead and ordered six of them. I thought to myself

Hey, didn't some nice guy send out some of them Black Plate Raytheons...for free. I believe they were made in 1962 just like the JAN's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went ahead and ordered six of them. I thought to myself
> 
> Hey, didn't some nice guy send out some of them Black Plate Raytheons...for free. I believe they were made in 1962 just like the JAN's.




Hehe! I know mine sound delish! $200 must mean these are from NASA's special Black Plate division cause that price is outer space!!!!!!


----------



## rockinr0ll

I'm sorry but that price is just insane, IDC if they are golden. I guess it would be worth a try with a couple thousand dollar amp though.


----------



## Jae

I think they aren't being serious here. I think the tube is a ripoff. That is alot for a tube.


----------



## superimposedmedia

rockinr0ll said:


> I'm sorry but that price is just insane, IDC if they are golden. I guess it would be worth a try with a couple thousand dollar amp though.



Considering gold is over $1,000 per ounce, they better have gold in it for $200 a tube. I don't think I'm ready to start switching out tubes yet. Maybe around winter time or something I'll be more comfortable with which tubes will give me the sound I want before I buy them. I haven't done enough research. I'll probably research by reading all 40 pages of this tube madness thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

Jae said:


> Yeah, that sucks man. The guy must have taken all the good ones out before handing it over to you. I think the guy should have sold as is and not make any changes to the item(s) after posting it.



This was an estate auction. I have no idea when it was scavenged, but it was. When you see a box that was designed to hold a couple hundred tubes and it only has 30, something's up. Those service guys never threw anything away if it had a little life left in it. They'd put it in a box and write the new tube number over the old one, and there were only 3 or 4 boxes like that. Ah well, maybe next time.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wish I had a $200 Raytheon BP...Sheesh!
> 
> JAN Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plate



That's really weird. Tube Depot usually has fairly decent prices for a retail outlet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and I sell mine for $35 to a forum member.


----------



## MartyStrat54

superimposedmedia said:


> Considering gold is over $1,000 per ounce, they better have gold in it for $200 a tube. I don't think I'm ready to start switching out tubes yet. Maybe around winter time or something I'll be more comfortable with which tubes will give me the sound I want before I buy them. I haven't done enough research. I'll probably research by reading all 40 pages of this tube madness thread.



You don't have to read all 40 pages. Just lay out what axe you play, type of amp and cab and the styles you play. We should be able to get you taken care of.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know what's funny? I was just going through some tubes as I had sold some and I came across, two, JAN 1962 Black Plates. You have to go way back in the thread, but one of them was the original ICBM. How's that for bringing back memories. Good to know that I have $400 worth of tubes that I paid $60 for. I better not let them slip out in someone's box of tubes, I'll cry like a girl.

Yeah, these are in official JAN tube boxes. I remember buying them a long time ago when the thread started going insane. Someone on EBAY had them for sale and I got them. NOS/NIB...doesn't get any better than that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a link to where the author judges boutique amps and also has a huge amount on info on CP and NOS tubes, both preamp and power. It is in the PDF format and it has to load. I managed to scan about 45 pages. I got to the power tubes and that was enough. This is a 2003 article. At this time, the author is stating that the 9th GEN Chinese tube is the best 12AX7 on the market (for a CP tube).

If you are bored and need something to read, he touches on the truth behind biasing and also explains the pro's and con's of blind tube rolling. That is, pulling all of the old tubes out and replacing them with new tubes. Because of the bad lots and failure rates, you could actually be sticking a tube in V1 that is worse than the old tube you pulled out. Imagine that? He also states why GT tubes are more expensive (yeah a 70 per cent failure rate during testing).

Like I said, the boutique amp review was good (for 2003) and if you are a good scan reader, there is a lot of stuff in this report.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Tubeprimerandselection330.pdf


----------



## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> You don't have to read all 40 pages. Just lay out what axe you play, type of amp and cab and the styles you play. We should be able to get you taken care of.



Cool! I'll take you up on that. I'm about to order another guitar so I'll lay out my setup when it gets here


----------



## MartyStrat54

I knew I forgot something. I will need to know what kind of speakers are in your cab as well. Thanks.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah and I sell mine for $35 to a forum member.



Shoosh!


----------



## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> I knew I forgot something. I will need to know what kind of speakers are in your cab as well. Thanks.



Alright, I'm going to jump the gun a little here because I'm %99 sure I'm about to order an Ibanez RG-7321.
Also I will alternate with my six string RG-570. They should be very close in sound.

It will look like this:
Ibanez RG-7321/RG-570 > Digitech GSP-1101 > JCM-2000 DSL-100 > MC412A/Celestion G12E50 Rockets

The distortion I use is EXTREME metal.
On my clean tone sounds, I favor tones mimicking an acoustic guitar sound that can go very loud, if that makes sense. I play a lot of my "rock" tones with added gain for that dirty sound. If I were to try and place a comparison of how I want my rock tone, I'd say I want tones similar to Blind Melon.


----------



## Jae

Anyone know of the Telefunkens by Leeds and Northrup?
There is a guy selling a pair on ebay supposedly nos. i'm thinking of bidding. 

Tell me what you think.

Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83 12AX7 matched NIB pair on eBay.ca (item 120467788285 end time 16-Sep-09 03:03:58 EDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

What this means is that "supposedly" these tubes were carefully screened by Telefunken for use in some type of lab equipment. They are using a super modern tube tester and the numbers are good. I don't know if I would go as far as he did and say a perfect match, but they are fairly close.


----------



## Jae

Hey all. On my quest for tube hunting I had quite a few actually several tubes come in today. Here are some of them.

The two on the left are RCA blackplate 12ax7s. The two on the right are Eico Mullards.

I have to say that these RCAs have a very solid sound. It's very crisp and clean sounding with more even order harmonics to my ears. These Mullards are also great too, I put them in the V1 slot with the RCA in V2. The mullards had a more of a gritty sound with more crunch and dirt (good dirt).

Hope you enjoy the pic


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you going to have any tubes for sale in the near future???


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you going to have any tubes for sale in the near future???



hey Marty, that IS a good question. I think eventually I'll have a bunch of tubes lying around unused. For now though I am experimenting with as many tubes I can get my hands on.
I actually sold a couple of Mullard ECC83s to the manager at L&M amp repairs. I sold it to him for about $40 a pop, which I think was a good deal since he tested them out himself and the readings were good and liked the sound of it in his amp. I'm also selling him a couple of Telefunkens.

I was doing it as a friend since he helped me out alot in my quest for tone.

Oh boy, I have alot more tubes coming in. It sounds crazy, because I have about 30 more separate boxes of tubes to be delivered to my house. Of course most of each box will be singles or doubles. It was funny, the guy who usually delivers to mail to my house was wondering "What the heck is going on here?" He's been delivering alot of boxes of stuff to my house in the last few months. He told me he thought I was building bombs or something (lol). Well wait until he realizes that there are 30 more boxes to come. I think I'll have ALOT of stuff to post on this thread. I really hope you guys don't mind. If you do please tell me! I have gotten "tube crazy" in the last couple of months.


----------



## Jae

i was on ebay and found some tubes named Amperex. Are these any good?
It seems like these are going quite high and as high as the mullards and tele's.

I heard alot about these tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> i was on ebay and found some tubes named Amperex. Are these any good?
> It seems like these are going quite high and as high as the mullards and tele's.
> 
> I heard alot about these tubes.



That's one of my favorites. Most were made in Holland. Amperex is also known as Bugle Boy. Anyway, a lot of people do not know that Philips had bought the name from an American company and they started using it on their new line of nine pin tubes and that was Amperex. You will want to try some of them out.

In two of my amps, I have a 7025 and a high gain Amperex. So yeah, I like them.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Hey all. On my quest for tube hunting I had quite a few actually several tubes come in today. Here are some of them.
> 
> The two on the left are RCA blackplate 12ax7s. The two on the right are Eico Mullards.
> 
> I have to say that these RCAs have a very solid sound. It's very crisp and clean sounding with more even order harmonics to my ears. These Mullards are also great too, I put them in the V1 slot with the RCA in V2. The mullards had a more of a gritty sound with more crunch and dirt (good dirt).
> 
> Hope you enjoy the pic



This is TooB porn!


----------



## Procter2812

Well!!!

Got the Harma 7025!

At the moment iv got the Mullard in V1 and the 7025 in V2... sounds better.

Waiting for another couple of white label mullards to arrive so i can compare!

Alex


----------



## thrawn86

Here's a silly question for you gents. I've picked around at this thread for a while, and noticed that some of you have mismatched sets in the preamp section. Let's say I just want to beef up my 401.....a "little"; nothing over the top. Could I purchase just one or two tubes and replace them? Or will this still mess me up because the set has to bias properly, even if they're not all from the same mfg.?  And which sockets would I use to do that if it's feasable?


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Here's a silly question for you gents. I've picked around at this thread for a while, and noticed that some of you have mismatched sets in the preamp section. Let's say I just want to beef up my 401.....a "little"; nothing over the top. Could I purchase just one or two tubes and replace them? Or will this still mess me up because the set has to bias properly, even if they're not all from the same mfg.?  And which sockets would I use to do that if it's feasable?



You don't bias preamp tubes and yes you can mix 12AX7's up. The only thing you need to watch for are some preamp tubes may fail in certain slots due to not being stout enough to handle the voltages there. In my amp that slot is V3 and some examples of tubes I wouldn't put there would be a Tung Sol, Mullard RI or an Sovtec LPS. The voltages in that slot will likely kill those tubes in a short amount of time.

You want to beef it up with a couple of tubes fill V1 and V2 and you'll have that to a point. Medium gain in V1 and high gain in V2 or reverse that or put 2 high gain tubes in those slots. Depends on what you want...

So lets hear more of what you are looking for...


----------



## Procter2812

Iv been messing around with positions and im sticking with the Mullard in V1...
This Mullard is just awesome in V1... More gain less noise

The 7025 is a bit more harsh and noisy but works nicely in V2... better than the JJ in V2

Im so impressed with these Mullards... hands down the best iv tried!

Alex


----------



## thrawn86

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You don't bias preamp tubes and yes you can mix 12AX7's up. The only thing you need to watch for are some preamp tubes may fail in certain slots due to not being stout enough to handle the voltages there. In my amp that slot is V3 and some examples of tubes I wouldn't put there would be a Tung Sol, Mullard RI or an Sovtec LPS. The voltages in that slot will likely kill those tubes in a short amount of time.
> 
> You want to beef it up with a couple of tubes fill V1 and V2 and you'll have that to a point. Medium gain in V1 and high gain in V2 or reverse that or put 2 high gain tubes in those slots. Depends on what you want...
> 
> So lets hear more of what you are looking for...



If by high gain you mean straight up metal, then no. I'd prefer an edgy, hard rock sound instead. My first tube amp was a Crate 5112, and it made some beautiful cleans, but the break up was muddy, and never enough. That's why I bought this amp, and I enjoy what I get, but just a little more would be great. Again, not looking to go over the top, just change it up a little.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> If by high gain you mean straight up metal, then no. I'd prefer an edgy, hard rock sound instead. My first tube amp was a Crate 5112, and it made some beautiful cleans, but the break up was muddy, and never enough. That's why I bought this amp, and I enjoy what I get, but just a little more would be great. Again, not looking to go over the top, just change it up a little.



Well to be blunt, I own two 401's and have had a total of three. The original speaker isn't the greatest sounding, so I have replaced the speaker in both units. In addition, I have an American 7025 in V1 and a high gain in V2. This gives me control over the amp. I can get anything from crunchy to full blown metal. You need to realize that a 401 will sound so much better if you play it through a closed back cab. I have a 1961 JBL D123 in one of the amps and it produces a tight low end similar to a closed back. This speaker is an exception, because it has so much low end. The other speaker is an Eminence Red Fang alnico. It has more low end than the stock speaker and is more Celestion sounding in the mids.

So, you can make a tone change with different tubes in V1 and V2, or you can go farther and change out the speaker. Your 401 will sound much better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

superimposedmedia said:


> Alright, I'm going to jump the gun a little here because I'm %99 sure I'm about to order an Ibanez RG-7321.
> Also I will alternate with my six string RG-570. They should be very close in sound.
> 
> It will look like this:
> Ibanez RG-7321/RG-570 > Digitech GSP-1101 > JCM-2000 DSL-100 > MC412A/Celestion G12E50 Rockets
> 
> The distortion I use is EXTREME metal.
> On my clean tone sounds, I favor tones mimicking an acoustic guitar sound that can go very loud, if that makes sense. I play a lot of my "rock" tones with added gain for that dirty sound. If I were to try and place a comparison of how I want my rock tone, I'd say I want tones similar to Blind Melon.



I don't know why this reply posted late. I just happened to reread some of the posts and found it today.

Hey are you wanting advice on current production (CP) tubes, or are you wanting to take the plunge with New Old Stock (NOS) tubes?

For what you are wanting to do, I think you will have to go NOS. I say this because a CP 7025 isn't as clean and doesn't have the gain of an NOS 7025.

For you, I'm thinking a slightly hotter American 7025 in V1 with a Raytheon Black Plate in V2.

What are the pickup configurations on the Ibanez's? H-S-H? Let me know.


----------



## Jae

Hey all. Today was a good day. I received some cool tubes. The four I really liked were these telefunkens that were used in some medical equipment. They had blue dots on them and are supposed to be well balanced. I tried them out and wow! i'll post some pics for you all soon!


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## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> For you, I'm thinking a slightly hotter American 7025 in V1 with a Raytheon Black Plate in V2.
> 
> What are the pickup configurations on the Ibanez's? H-S-H? Let me know.



The RG-570 is H-S-H. The RG-7321 is setup in the same layout but without the single. Here's some pics.











Hopefully, I'll have the RG7321 ordered this weekend.


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## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Iv been messing around with positions and im sticking with the Mullard in V1...
> This Mullard is just awesome in V1... More gain less noise
> 
> The 7025 is a bit more harsh and noisy but works nicely in V2... better than the JJ in V2
> 
> Im so impressed with these Mullards... hands down the best iv tried!
> 
> Alex



Yeah, I was afraid of that. A good Mullard 12AX7 is better that an CP 7025. Now if you had a "real" 7025, then that would make your tube rolling even more interesting.

I'm glad you got the Mullards. Smart move.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I was afraid of that. A good Mullard 12AX7 is better that an CP 7025. Now if you had a "real" 7025, then that would make your tube rolling even more interesting.
> 
> I'm glad you got the Mullards. Smart move.



1600 Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

superimposedmedia said:


> Alright, I'm going to jump the gun a little here because I'm %99 sure I'm about to order an Ibanez RG-7321.
> Also I will alternate with my six string RG-570. They should be very close in sound.
> 
> It will look like this:
> Ibanez RG-7321/RG-570 > Digitech GSP-1101 > JCM-2000 DSL-100 > MC412A/Celestion G12E50 Rockets
> 
> The distortion I use is EXTREME metal.
> On my clean tone sounds, I favor tones mimicking an acoustic guitar sound that can go very loud, if that makes sense. I play a lot of my "rock" tones with added gain for that dirty sound. If I were to try and place a comparison of how I want my rock tone, I'd say I want tones similar to Blind Melon.



Well since you might be picking up a 7 string, I would have to say that you might want to go with a hotter medium gain Black Plate and a high gain Black Plate. This would bring out the bottom end that the 7 string will produce.

Plus a Black Plate can get as crunchy as any other tube out there, so you could go from a well rounded clean to a heavy crunch.


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## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well to be blunt, I own two 401's and have had a total of three. The original speaker isn't the greatest sounding, so I have replaced the speaker in both units. In addition, I have an American 7025 in V1 and a high gain in V2. This gives me control over the amp. I can get anything from crunchy to full blown metal. You need to realize that a 401 will sound so much better if you play it through a closed back cab. I have a 1961 JBL D123 in one of the amps and it produces a tight low end similar to a closed back. This speaker is an exception, because it has so much low end. The other speaker is an Eminence Red Fang alnico. It has more low end than the stock speaker and is more Celestion sounding in the mids.
> 
> So, you can make a tone change with different tubes in V1 and V2, or you can go farther and change out the speaker. Your 401 will sound much better.



That's just fine for me to have the versatility; I'm not opposed to having the _ability_to play the high gain sound thru my amp. I could change the speaker, but that's mostly used for me and me alone, since I unplug the onboard speaker and use my 4x12 cab with any sort of gig. It does sound a lot better than my 100w goldback, so I just bypass it and run the cab only. 

My question is what tube(s) in V1 or V2 do you suggest to do something similar to get that kind of control you speak of? I'd rather burn the dough on good tubes than on a speaker I'll only use to practice with......and half my practice time is late at night, so I go with my pedal/headphone combo.


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## MartyStrat54

Well the bread and butter combo is a 7025 in V1 and a high gain 12AX7 in V2.

This allows a very clean channel and also a mild to wild high gain sound.

If you are interested in a couple of tubes, send me a PM.


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## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> If by high gain you mean straight up metal, then no. I'd prefer an edgy, hard rock sound instead. My first tube amp was a Crate 5112, and it made some beautiful cleans, but the break up was muddy, and never enough. That's why I bought this amp, and I enjoy what I get, but just a little more would be great. Again, not looking to go over the top, just change it up a little.



High gain to me is from hard rock on up of which I don't usually do the on up stuff hehe. Medium gain in V1 and a high gain tube in V2 will serve you well just like Marty stated.


----------



## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well since you might be picking up a 7 string, I would have to say that you might want to go with a hotter medium gain Black Plate and a high gain Black Plate. This would bring out the bottom end that the 7 string will produce.
> 
> Plus a Black Plate can get as crunchy as any other tube out there, so you could go from a well rounded clean to a heavy crunch.



Sweet! I'll start shopping for a set after this weekend. Now, is that split for "Classic Gain tubes=medium gain Black plate" "Ultra Gain tubes=high gain Black Plate" Forgive my ignorance. This really is my first Marshall Tube Amp


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## MartyStrat54

Some of the signal paths are odd on a Marshall. There are two triodes in each 12AX7. Each half has its own gain capability. On your amp, I believe on clean it goes through the two gain sections on V1 and for Ultra it adds the two gain sections on V2.

*If you are in the market for tubes send me a PM.*


----------



## RiverRatt

With Superimposedmedia and Marty talking about guitars, I realized that except for a couple of signatures that have an itemized list, we've never discussed the first link in the tone chain. What are you guys pushing those preamp tubes with? Here are my girls - a 2006 Gibson LP 1958 reissue with Wolfetone Dr. Vintage pickups and a Strat that I had to walk out of GC with on an impulse buy. The LP gets about 99% of the playing time. Here's my little corner of the laundry room:


----------



## ToddOwnz

I'm lookin for an RCA 7025 and was wondering if this is the same thing I'm lookin for:
RCA 7025 w/dots Stereo Tube radio tube - eBay (item 280397979314 end time Sep-18-09 18:05:45 PDT)

Thanks!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1600 Joe



900 mate hehe.


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## Jae

Ok. I'm going to be on a hunt for some Amperex Bugle Boy preamp tubes. I saw a pair bid up for over $300. These must be good tubes (also according to Marty). 

I know Amperex makes the 12ax7 without that picture of the "Bugle Boy", but does that make a difference?

I think it's best to go for the NOS,right? The last pair I saw for NOS was over $300!


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## MartyStrat54

To be blunt, the non-Bugle Boy tubes made by Amperex during the 60's are IMO, just as good as a Bugle Boy. Here again, we have fanatics who will bid these tubes up in price. Hell, regular Amperex tubes (relabeled) will go for $40 or more a piece. 

Some audiophiles consider an Amperex a step above a Mullard. Just remember, in Hi Fi equipment, it is easier to hear sonic differences compared to a roaring guitar amp. IMO, a Mullard sounds pretty damn good in a guitar amp.

And it really isn't about the brand. You can have two Telefunkens and one sounds good and the other not as good. You can have a Sylvania that sounds better than a Black Plate. 

So the bottom line is that when you buy used tubes, you hope that they pass the "ear" test and that they sound smooth and sweet in your amp. Certain brands just ensure that this will happen, but it's not a given.


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## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 900 mate hehe.



Hey Joe...my man! I was just seeing if you were paying attention. I didn't mean to do a double post, but it was late and I hit the "Quote" icon and didn't realize that I was quoting myself. Ahh, the joys of staying up late to catch you for about an hour. You're on when most of the Aussie's are. I see they all start popping in about the same time as you. Anyway, cheers to your 900. We'll go out for beers when you hit 1000.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ToddOwnz said:


> I'm lookin for an RCA 7025 and was wondering if this is the same thing I'm lookin for:
> RCA 7025 w/dots Stereo Tube radio tube - eBay (item 280397979314 end time Sep-18-09 18:05:45 PDT)
> 
> Thanks!



Todd, just some tips. The seller states he has a tester, but he doesn't state the test results. The tester he is using is an Emissions tester. It is not as accurate as a Mutual Conductance tester. However, If you can get it cheap, it is worth the gamble.

If you are having trouble getting a 7025, I have some for sale. Just send me a PM for details.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Joe...my man! I was just seeing if you were paying attention. I didn't mean to do a double post, but it was late and I hit the "Quote" icon and didn't realize that I was quoting myself. Ahh, the joys of staying up late to catch you for about an hour. You're on when most of the Aussie's are. I see they all start popping in about the same time as you. Anyway, cheers to your 900. We'll go out for beers when you hit 1000.



I know man. On my days off I'm all over the place cause I sleep here and there while I'm trying to do stuff and have some fun. I never thought about being on the same time as the Aussie bro's but hey that's pretty cool how that works out. 

Some internet beers and a couple internet hotties(you should get a hottie too)will make for a "Grand" lil' partay!

Toobs and Boobs Bruther!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Content removed by Marty.


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## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> Look Alan, this guy has some whacky Tungsrams for sale. Tested on the same tester I have. Look how W*I*D*E the tubes test.



Alright, let me pose this question. The readings on four different tubes are 23/30, 50/32, 33/52 and 50/35. With the type of tester that you have, what numbers would be relevant to the strength of the tube circuitry and longevity of the tube?


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## MartyStrat54

Content removed by Marty.


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## superimposedmedia

Interesting, do those numbers represent anything considering how many more hours of use they _should_ have left in them? With results that are so disproportionate, it seems to me that they won't live very much longer anyways.


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## MartyStrat54

Content removed by Marty.


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## superimposedmedia

Dually noted. It's too bad the amps don't have a "work hours" monitor in order to calculate how long a tested tube should last. After reading some of the tube prices in this thread, I'd be upset to get a high dollar set of useless glass that won't even light my room, DOH! I guess that's the chance you take though.

When you guys sip virtual beer for SB's 1,000 post, I want a seat at the B00B table


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## Jae

Ok, check this out. I got these 12ax7 quad closely matched smooth plate Telefunkens in this week. They sound really good. Very even sounding to my ears with alot of sustain.

I did notice something I never saw. Well two things. First these were originally for some medical equipment, but these are supposedly NOS. They have BLUE dots on the top!?? 
The second thing. Have you ever seen a Telefunken that flashes when put in? That was the first time I've ever seen that. First I thought I was mistaken for another Mullard tube, but I tried it again this evening and when I put it in the V2 slot it flashed just like a Mullard. What is strange is that these are made in Germany like the other Tele's, so I don't think it may be associated with Mullards, but it flashes like the Mullards.

So far these are my favorite ones. Check out the pics and tell me what you think:


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## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy does have the same tester I have. A B and K 707 Dyna Jet. 22 represents a new, nominal tube and would roughly be around 80 on a different tester. Keep in mind that some testers go to 120 or 130.
> 
> Well through our testing, a tube with a triode reading over 31 is starting to push it. I sent one of the members a 35-35 Black Plate and it was too much. He couldn't get a clean channel and the amp was near feedbacking on its own.
> 
> Generally, when I sell tubes, V1 is around 25-25 and V2 is about 29-29.
> 
> I do make exceptions. Some people don't care about a real clean channel. They want more gain. This is especially true with people who own 800's. Most of them want more crunch and therefore they get like a 27-27 and a 31-31.
> 
> Also, when a preamp tube is that lopsided, it is hard to figure out how the amp will sound. I try to sell tubes that are somewhat close together, like 23-25. That's not bad, but 50-32...that's a real wide spread.
> 
> The wild thing is he said he put all of them in his amp and it made it "dark" sounding. That sounds like a giant crock of shit to me.



Um, actually, that's my auction, and it is not a giant crock of shit. I PM'ed you a couple of times about the Tungsrams and asked why the numbers would be so high and the tubes still sound good. I have used each tube in V1 on my amp with my current setup, which should give an accurate idea of the musical quality of each tube, both on the ultra gain and the clean/crunch channel, and they are each and every one a nice, warm sounding tube with no noticeable difference between any of them. I've also used all four Tungsrams at once in the amp and switched the positions around several times. The only detrimental quality that I can find is a slight drop in volume compared to my RCA/RFT setup. Actually the tone is very similar to my RFT 7025A, with a little less gain, which is in-line with what I have read in my online research of Tungsrams. Maybe "dark" wasn't the best word - "warm" or "clean" would have been good choices as well... it's hard to describe a tone accurately, but I tried to do my best. I have probably spent a couple of hours giving those tubes a workout, even tapping on them to see if they rattled or were microphonic, and I stand by my description. They are used tubes. They still sound good. I thought my starting price ($5 per tube) was more than fair, even if they aren't pristine. I wish you had been able to test them in your own equipment, and then I would have had a second opinion to base my assessment on. The only other amp the tubes have been used in is the Laney that I mention in the auction. In that amp, they sounded brittle and harsh, which is probably why I wasn't taken with them at first. As I said about that amp, looking back, it probably was in need of a cap job. It always sounded harsh no matter what tubes I used.

I don't sell on eBay often, but I don't sell shit (check the 100% postitive rating... most of that was back when feedback mattered), and I wouldn't have listed the tubes if I didn't think they still had some life in them.


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## MartyStrat54

Well this isn't the first time that I've put my foot in my mouth. I sent Alan (RATT) a PM letting him know that I apologize for ragging on his EBAY listing. I should have realized it was his listing, because he told me he was going to list them. I just didn't put 2 and 2 together.

I apologized in private and now I am doing the same here on the thread. I hope that we can remain friends.


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## MartyStrat54

Well I lost overnight on EBAY. I couldn't stay up, so I had to place bids with 4 hours left to go. The seller had three listings with a start price (cheap) and a "Buy It Now." I ended up winning two RCA 7025's for $29 and two 1959 RCA short plates for $19. What I was really interested in was his listing for four, RCA, Made in Gt. Britain tubes. Okay, so you would think they would be Mullards. I have several of them. However, it was brought up by another EBAYer that these were in fact RFT tubes. Now that is just crazy. Mullards made by RFT and relabeled RCA. Wow! I wonder what year this all took place in. Well, my bid held up until about 2:35 AM and then I was outbid and lost, so I will never know. These were really weird looking 12AX7's. They had what looked like a small cup up above the plates with the getter mounted inside of that. None of my RFT's have that, but neither does my Mullards. Take a look while the picture is still posted and see if you have ever seen one like this. I tried to copy the picture, but EBAY won't let me.

Lot of 4 Mullard 12ax7 - tested - branded RCA - eBay (item 130330496087 end time Sep-19-09 00:39:15 PDT)

*He changed his listing to Tungsram at the last minute down below the picture. It did say RFT and now it says Tungsram.*


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## MartyStrat54

Well I went to my data bank of pictures and ruling out any American tubes, I concentrated on Mullard and RFT. No where could I find a 12AX7 with a cup shaped shroud over the getter. I ended up looking at Amperex and Philips as well...nothing. This has really got me puzzled. I have a few other place to look.


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## MartyStrat54

I solved it and it is weird. I looked for certain build features inside of the tube. I went back to the picture and then I noticed it. A small square shape of metal attached to one of the getter posts. There is only one company that has ever done that. It's a Tungsram. So the EBAY tube guru wasn't such a guru after all. He was close, but no cigar. My data base does not show a clear top Tungsram like this one. However, the number plate on the getter post is proof positive. I'm still trying to figure out how it all happened. These tubes are marked in the later red letter RCA logo. Mullard could have been shutting down and of course RCA. Then RCA could have needed a large order filled. Mullard made tubes for RCA, but this time couldn't fill all, or some of the order with their stock. "So in comes the Tungsram?" They would have had to been relabeled "RCA" by Mullard, who also put, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tubes as well. The Tungsrams would have had to been completely void of any markings. They would have had to been shipped as "clean glass OE" tubes. True Mullards have a pinched top on the tubes. These don't. This goes back to my post about the American tubes that were made in Japan. The tubes would say "RCA" in big letters, but down at the bottom in real light print was, "Made in Japan." On the box, it said, "Made in USA." Yeah, the box was, just not the tube. A lot of that was going on when the tube plants in America were closing down and they depended more and more on foreign markets to meet their demand. So what if there was a little deception going on to fool the American public? "Let's make sure all of the boxes have, 'Made in USA' in big print on them." We don't want them to know that's an East German tube in the box, or Soviet Bloc country, or Japanese. These are the kinds of stories that I would like to hear over some beers and marshmallows.

*As stated, I went back to the EBAY listing and did not realize that at some point during the early morning, the seller has placed a small, edited phrase in his listing stating that the tubes were Tungsram. He originally had RFT when I looked at the listing last night. When I looked at it again today, I never scrolled all the way down and therefore I did not notice the change in the listing. Anyway, I was still correct, even though the mystery had already been solved. Well part of the mystery. How in the heck do you get a Tungsram tube marked, "Made in Gt. Britain" and labeled RCA? Plus, the seller states the tubes are pinch tops, but they appear as smooth as a baby's butt to me. Just more of the unknown???*


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## RiverRatt

Not a problem Marty... you can buy me a beer sometime.


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## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Not a problem Marty... you can buy me a beer sometime.



THANK YOU!


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## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I solved it and it is weird. I looked for certain build features inside of the tube. I went back to the picture and then I noticed it. A small square shape of metal attached to one of the getter posts. There is only one company that has ever done that. It's a Tungsram. So the EBAY tube guru wasn't such a guru after all. He was close, but no cigar. My data base does not show a clear top Tungsram like this one. However, the number plate on the getter post is proof positive. I'm still trying to figure out how it all happened. These tubes are marked in the later red letter RCA logo. Mullard could have been shutting down and of course RCA. Then RCA could have needed a large order filled. Mullard made tubes for RCA, but this time couldn't fill all, or some of the order with their stock. "So in comes the Tungsram?" They would have had to been relabeled "RCA" by Mullard, who also put, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tubes as well. The Tungsrams would have had to been completely void of any markings. They would have had to been shipped as "clean glass OE" tubes. True Mullards have a pinched top on the tubes. These don't. This goes back to my post about the American tubes that were made in Japan. The tubes would say "RCA" in big letters, but down at the bottom in real light print was, "Made in Japan." On the box, it said, "Made in USA." Yeah, the box was, just not the tube. A lot of that was going on when the tube plants in America were closing down and they depended more and more on foreign markets to meet their demand. So what if there was a little deception going on to fool the American public? "Let's make sure all of the boxes have, 'Made in USA' in big print on them." We don't want them to know that's an East German tube in the box, or Soviet Bloc country, or Japanese. These are the kinds of stories that I would like to hear over some beers and marshmallows.
> 
> *As stated, I went back to the EBAY listing and did not realize that at some point during the early morning, the seller has placed a small, edited phrase in his listing stating that the tubes were Tungsram. He originally had RFT when I looked at the listing last night. When I looked at it again today, I never scrolled all the way down and therefore I did not notice the change in the listing. Anyway, I was still correct, even though the mystery had already been solved. Well part of the mystery. How in the heck do you get a Tungsram tube marked, "Made in Gt. Britain" and labeled RCA? Plus, the seller states the tubes are pinch tops, but they appear as smooth as a baby's butt to me. Just more of the unknown???*



That's some pretty interesting stuff and good detective work so far my man. Bummer you weren't able to get them but that's how it goes sometimes. These seem to have quite a story behind them too. Very interesting...


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## MartyStrat54

Well what intrigued me the most was how the getter was shrouded. I've never seen that before. Almost every preamp tube has a top "D" or "O" getter. Very few have side getters. The top getters are unrestricted. I would be curious to see how this shrouded getter affected the tone of the tube? Did it alter the overall tonal characteristics? I guess I will never know.


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## RiverRatt

I think it's just a regular getter. I think the seller tried to get fancy and really took a bad photo. Look at the reflections on either side of the tube, and the big one in the center. It looks like he had lights on the sides and a camera flash in the center. Sometimes side lighting can produce a weird effect like that on reflective objects. You can still tell that the top of the tube is shaded, which I'm sure under normal light is perfectly ordinary flashing. Also, if you look at the getter on the right side, you can see a little space between it and the darker flashing in the center.


----------



## Led Hendriani

Hi guys!!!
I have been reading this thread and so far am only up to page 16! I wanted to ask some questions if you don't mind... hopefully it is not too ramble-y !!!

First off, I have a Marshall Reverb 75 (SS) but while waiting to get the $ for a good Marshall tube amp, I came across a deal I could not refuse for a mid nineties Crate Vintage Club 5212. It has 4 Sovetek 12AX7's and 4 Sovtek power tubes, but 2 are el84's and 2 are el84M's. they had them running side by side, so I did at least pair them 2 in the middle and 2 on the outside.

Basically from what I can ascertain from the net and calling some local tube techs, it is along the lines of a Vox ac30.

I want to eventually get into changing the pre tubes to what was spoken about up to where I am reading so far--- a 7025 in V1 and an ICBM in V2.

I read that the power tubes are not as important as the pre for the drive channel, and also use a Boss GT-8 which bypasses the pre section all together (although I could run a 4 cable method and include the pre in the chain, or I can say the heck with the multi efx pedal).

I have been reading that the best NOS value for pretty good tone is Telam/Polam el84's, but then read reviews and one write up said that it was more for single coils than HB's. I have 93 Ibanez S (HSH), 89 Heartfield EX1 (SSS but bridge and middle are a HB slanted at the bridge position), 84 Ibanez PR1440 (HSS) and a noname with (HSH-GFS Power rails-YEAH!) What I am hearing right now is that it could use a little bit more bass, say like on my screamin' demon's. I am also hearing a bit of harshness that I don't want anymore!

The writeups mostly praise the JJ el84's, except when it comes to comparing them with expensive NOS power tubes that I just don't have $ for.

The amp as it is delivers a great Zep-AC/DC tone plus more. I want to have sparkly-chimey cleans, and freakin' balls to the wall, fully-dynamic, palm mutable, Gary Moore-Santana-Satriani-Vai-Hendrix-SRV tones, and hopefully some of the newer modern tones

My question comes down to this: Will the JJ el84 tubes prove satisfactory to my needs? I am not in a super rush, but one power tube was rattling along with a certain note, so I switched it out (I got one of each 84 as spares, luckily) and so far so good, but there may have been a reason that the tube was not installed already.

Does it all really come down to the pre amp tubes being the most important? If so, I can also go the route of 4 new el84M's which are much stronger and will handle the furnace that is inside of theVC5212 and are rated for 5,000 hours or so!!!! and are very low priced...

A local tech will charge me $40 to do some tube rollin' for about an hour . I would rather buy the JJ's for $37 plus shipping or put the $40 towards the Telams that run $100 plus shipping.

Any of your insights and experience will be most appreciated! 
TIA!


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## MartyStrat54

Why don't you go here. They still have Ei EL84's for sale. Call them for a price on a quad.

ARS Electronics Since 1947 - Home Page - Electron Tubes - Amp Tubes - RF Heating Tubes - Broadcast Transmitter Tubes

I would tell you to steer away from the JJ's. I've not had much luck with their EL84's. Also, I had four matched quads of Sylvania Black Plate EL84's for sale on EBAY several weeks ago. One guy snagged a quad for $60. So good deals on NOS or ANOS tubes are out there. I would recommend getting the power section in shape first. It sounds like you have a cathode biased amp where you do not have to adjust the bias. That makes swapping power tubes easy, but it is a good idea that they be a matched set.

Yeah, I would say that you could go with a 7025 in V1 and a high gain Black Plate in V2. That would probably help you get the tone you are after.


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## MartyStrat54

Found another auction for one Tungsram RCA. I thought I would try to bid on it but it went over $60 and I thought how friggin' ridiculous. Also, this one didn't say "Made in Gt. Britain" on it. Just more confusion.

I did however pick up about 18 more tubes, including some 1960 Raytheon long black plates and eight really nice RCA 12AX7A's. According to what I have read, at some point there wasn't any difference between an AX7A and a 7025. They were made the very same. I will do some more digging around about this.


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## Jesstaa

Yo Marty, I have a mullard sitting in my lap, how do I tell if it's reissue or original?

Alright, I could only get one picture up, but the revision number thing is like 163 or whatever, and the year code thing is 9.





Code thing is 163 B9J1

Look, I'ma say it's an original just going off the fact it sounds FUCKING AMAZING
Seriously
It made my 900 sound beyond brilliant
I now surrender myself to you, N.O.S Mullards.


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## MartyStrat54

A new Mullard will have the logo acid etched in the tube, including "Made in Russia." Dead giveaway. Also, a new Mullard has a fatter glass bottle.

A real Mullard will have a "pinched top." It will have print that rubs off. It will say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the bottom of the tube. There will also be some letters and numbers that are factory codes, the most famous begins with a "B" for the Blackburn plant.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> A new Mullard will have the logo acid etched in the tube, including "Made in Russia." Dead giveaway. Also, a new Mullard has a fatter glass bottle.
> 
> A real Mullard will have a "pinched top." It will have print that rubs off. It will say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the bottom of the tube. There will also be some letters and numbers that are factory codes, the most famous begins with a "B" for the Blackburn plant.



Woo!
I has a mullard I has a mullard 

Thanks Marty.

And you know what, I saw the amp and thought "Heh, I should see what tube is in there... Maybe I'll find a mullard (With uber sarcasm)"

Looks like it's my lucky day =)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Yo Marty, I have a mullard sitting in my lap, how do I tell if it's reissue or original?
> 
> Alright, I could only get one picture up, but the revision number thing is like 163 or whatever, and the year code thing is 9.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Code thing is 163 B9J1
> 
> Look, I'ma say it's an original just going off the fact it sounds FUCKING AMAZING
> Seriously
> It made my 900 sound beyond brilliant
> I now surrender myself to you, N.O.S Mullards.



When I replied, your post only came up part way??? There was no picture and most of what you had posted was not showing. I made a reply and when I posted it, all of a sudden your post had a picture and written info.

Yes, that's a real Blackburn Mullard. Enjoy. It's one good sounding tube.


----------



## Jesstaa

You're right about the writing coming off, it's almost all gone now, except for half of the mullard logo and the date code =)

And while I got your attention, know anything about chinese tubes bearing the logo that's a crosshair, with a 1 as the top thing. Don't have any pictures that I know of.

It also has 2 getters kinda, the normal one around the top, then a gap, and another ring of silver stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Give the man a cigar. He has a "real" Mullard for V1!!!


----------



## Jesstaa

Indeed I do, I fear I may never be able to settle for current production tubes EVER again.
Playing through a little glass bottle with some metal inside which is older than I am feels pretty good
Also kinda worrying because this is a used tube o.0 I know I was using it for a while in an old valvestate without even realising xD

Mmmm... This is so good =D
I've rolled back the gain to a little bit over 1 o clock (the 900 has a lot of gain remember) and I think its cut most of the IC's and diodes from the circuit, I have a very rich tube tone. Normally when I do this (With CP tubes) it gets thin and weak because it's only like 1 tube and a bit of boost, this sounds AMAZING.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Give the man a cigar. He has a "real" Mullard for V1!!!


----------



## Jesstaa

Alright, I'ma give a shot at dating it.

Going off what I've seen around the net, it's a 1969 Longplate, amirite? It looks like a long plate at least, I've seen 12AX7s with much smaller plate structures than that. Also, I read somewhere they switched to a hard print which was harder to rub off in the late 70's, so I'm guessing it's not any later than the 60s. 

And the only mullard I've seen with 12AX7 written under the ECC83 was a 1960's long plate, which even had the shield logo in the exact same position.

When I first pulled it out, before I smudged everything, it looked exactly like the mullard from 1965 with the shield logo





IN CONCLUSION

My over excited posting/figureing shit out leads me to believe, it's a N.O.S Mullard Long Plate, made in the first week of October 1969. 

How wrong am I? xD


----------



## MartyStrat54

First week of October, 1969, Blackburn plant. You nailed it. I'm proud of you.

Also, would you post the link where you got the Mullard pics? I want to add it to my data base.

A guy had two, Mullard 10M 12AX7's and an RCA for sell. You could have thrown the RCA away, because the lot went for over $300 and that was for the two 10M's. They are the most expensive Mullard's out there. They are very rare.

Mullard's with ECC83 and 12AX7 on them were usually meant for export, but not always. However this was more the case than not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I checked your pic and I see it is from Tube World.

Edit: But I couldn't find it on their website. Please send link.


----------



## RiverRatt

OK. Just when you think you've seen everything...






A 12AX7 suspended in oil. They only have one left, because out of 6 tubes, five leaked oil. Here's the link if anyone wants to check it our or add it to their collection.

Parts N  Such


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had to do an EBAY trolling bid on a couple of listings last night. This is where I put more money down than I want to in an attempt to win the items. Both listings were to expire around 5 AM CST. 

I woke up and had a cup of coffee and got on the computer to see if I had caught any fish. Boy, I was surprised and very happy. I won a set of four RCA tubes, except these were Mullards made for RCA and I got them for $56!!! The seller emailed me and said they all tested at 100. That means they should test around 26-26 on my tester.

The next deal was a matched set of EL34's labeled EDICRON. However, they were made in "Gt. Britain." At first I thought they might be Mullards, but I looked online and actually found out that Edicron is a huge tube seller. So these are probably hand selected Russian tubes. I don't like it that they say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them. Maybe I'll contact them and find out how they are getting away with this. They are a matched set that was tested on a TV-7. Note: These could be older Edicron's and they could be relabeled Mullards. I won't know until I get them. Anyway, I got them for $41. Regardless, that's a great price. I'm hoping they are older ones and Mullard's. That would be sweet.

So while I slept, I spent less than $100 on four Mullards 12AX7's and four "unknown at this time" EL34's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I had to do an EBAY trolling bid on a couple of listings last night. This is where I put more money down than I want to in an attempt to win the items. Both listings were to expire around 5 AM CST.
> 
> I woke up and had a cup of coffee and got on the computer to see if I had caught any fish. Boy, I was surprised and very happy. I won a set of four RCA tubes, except these were Mullards made for RCA and I got them for $56!!! The seller emailed me and said they all tested at 100. That means they should test around 26-26 on my tester.
> 
> The next deal was a matched set of EL34's labeled EDICRON. However, they were made in "Gt. Britain." At first I thought they might be Mullards, but I looked online and actually found out that Edicron is a huge tube seller. So these are probably hand selected Russian tubes. I don't like it that they say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them. Maybe I'll contact them and find out how they are getting away with this. They are a matched set that was tested on a TV-7. Note: These could be older Edicron's and they could be relabeled Mullards. I won't know until I get them. Anyway, I got them for $41. Regardless, that's a great price. I'm hoping they are older ones and Mullard's. That would be sweet.
> 
> So while I slept, I spent less than $100 on four Mullards 12AX7's and four "unknown at this time" EL34's.



Scoring Mullards in your sleep for less than a bill...Redonkulous!

I wonder what those Edicon's will turn out to be? Hope you get lucky and get some Mullards hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> OK. Just when you think you've seen everything...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 12AX7 suspended in oil. They only have one left, because out of 6 tubes, five leaked oil. Here's the link if anyone wants to check it our or add it to their collection.
> 
> Parts N* Such



Bizzaro! 

People worry about a lil' finger oil getting on the tube...sheesh!

Here is the description:

Oil sealed tube. Jan GE 12AX7. Part of an interesting experiment to find out how the tube sounded when immersed in an oil environment. Sounded great. Very quiet and dark background in the soundstage. Problem was out of 6 tubes made, 5 leaked oil after a couple months. This is the sole remaining unit that has'nt leaked yet. About 4 years already. Tube is good as new. Was not use since then. No return if oil do leak. S$50.


----------



## Jesstaa

https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm Marty, the pic is about halfway down the page. Nothing exciting though.

I needa get a tube tester, I'm really curious as to how this thing tests.


http://www.techtubevalves.com/about_us/film_reels.php Have you guys seen this?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> OK. Just when you think you've seen everything...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 12AX7 suspended in oil. They only have one left, because out of 6 tubes, five leaked oil. Here's the link if anyone wants to check it our or add it to their collection.
> 
> Parts N* Such



I swear Ratt, you find the odd ball tubes. I wish they had four, I'd put them in my Marshall. Of course I would need to extend my chassis by about a foot.

I have never heard of "any" oil filled tube. And it's a JAN at that. I can see why the military rejected them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm Marty, the pic is about halfway down the page. Nothing exciting though.
> 
> I needa get a tube tester, I'm really curious as to how this thing tests.
> 
> 
> Film Reels Have you guys seen this?



Well, when you don't have a tester, you use your ears. If it sounds good to you, that's all that matters. Remember 95 per cent of the tube testers can't test for microphonics. You can have a tube that tests good and it can be microphonic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That "Film Reels?" Yeah we posted it a while back. I get a woody just watching it.


----------



## Jae

Hey all. I know this is off topic, but I won the bid five RCA short plate 12ax7s all NOS and unused for $76 US, plus the shipping and handling ><. Is this a good deal for NOS RCA?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Hey all. I know this is off topic, but I won the bid five RCA short plate 12ax7s all NOS and unused for $76 US, plus the shipping and handling ><. Is this a good deal for NOS RCA?



I had those on my "watch list." I'm glad I didn't bid or they would have sold for twice that.

I just bought the RCA Mullards and I decided that I'd rather have Mullards than more RCA's (I have around 200 of them). 

That's a sweet price when you can get tubes for less than $20 each. That's cheaper than what a new CP tube costs, so what a bargin that is.

Those are nice sounding tubes. It all boils down to what you like. I guess I'll have to email you to determine whether or not you are bidding on tubes that I am looking at. Otherwise, we are going to cause the price to go up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Can someone give me any info on this tube? It is listed as a GE-branded Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 6681.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok. It's moot now. I went ahead and pulled the trigger. From what I can find online, it looks like a 60's short plate ECC83 with what looks like the start of a Blackburn date code on the bottom right. One of the seams is visible on the top, too. Seller says it tested 1600/1575 on a Hickok 6000A, for whatever that's worth. Any more info would be appreciated.


----------



## Jesstaa

From that picture it looks the same as my '69 mullard, can you get a date code?


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought it at 2 a.m. (insomnia + ebay = trouble), so I couldn't contact the seller. I can tell it starts with a B and that's good enough for now. This is going to be my first Mullard ECC83. I'm hoping Marty or someone can tell me what the Hickok numbers mean. The seller says minimum good is 1250.


----------



## ken361

I used to swear by nos, i bought a few off the net. I have 2 tele's, Rft,GE because seemed like all new production sounded compressed and crappy. Then i tried dougs penta labs 12ax7 its the groove tube mullard tube relabled. They sounded probley cleaner then the nos, good crunch all. then i thought about trying the mesa tubes again becaused I liked them before im my combo amps plus they test them, well these sounded the best yet!! nice crunch not compressed either. Seems like some amps like certain tubes maybe huh? well these are same as the JJ's 83's with the short plate maybe that why I like them. I have not tubed rolled yet on my marshall yet so i have to see what sounds best yet. any ideas whats in the jvm models?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I bought it at 2 a.m. (insomnia + ebay = trouble), so I couldn't contact the seller. I can tell it starts with a B and that's good enough for now. This is going to be my first Mullard ECC83. I'm hoping Marty or someone can tell me what the Hickok numbers mean. The seller says minimum good is 1250.



Well if it's a 6681, that the later industrial number for a 12AX7A. It is also built to the same specs as a 7025A. This tube was made near the final collapse of the tube empire. Hence, Mullard filling an order for GE for this tube. In reality, it is probably a Mullard 7025A. Regardless, it is an above average tube.

As far as testing, it would have been nicer if the tubes read closer to 2000. The 1600/1575 is probably a 21-21 on my tester. It doesn't mean the tube is bad, it just means it was used. A least it is a nice, balanced tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> I used to swear by nos, i bought a few off the net. I have 2 tele's, Rft,GE because seemed like all new production sounded compressed and crappy. Then i tried dougs penta labs 12ax7 its the groove tube mullard tube relabled. They sounded probley cleaner then the nos, good crunch all. then i thought about trying the mesa tubes again becaused I liked them before im my combo amps plus they test them, well these sounded the best yet!! nice crunch not compressed either. Seems like some amps like certain tubes maybe huh? well these are same as the JJ's 83's with the short plate maybe that why I like them. I have not tubed rolled yet on my marshall yet so i have to see what sounds best yet. any ideas whats in the jvm models?



There are many forum members who let us know that they like CP tubes and that's great. If you are happy with the sound they provide, then go for it. I keep saying that eventually, some of the current tube manufacturers will get it right and when that happens, I'll be buying their tubes. However, as long as I can get NOS tubes for 15 to 30 dollars each, that is what I will use and sell to others.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Marty. The seller has a 7-day unconditional guarantee, so if I don't like it I can always return/exchange it. She appears to have several Mullards.
Why is the price so low on these tubes? I've seen several of these 1960's short plates going for $30 and under on eBay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks Marty. The seller has a 7-day unconditional guarantee, so if I don't like it I can always return/exchange it. She appears to have several Mullards.
> Why is the price so low on these tubes? I've seen several of these 1960's short plates going for $30 and under on eBay.



Who is it, Tina?

I wish I could give you an answer about EBAY prices. There are many things I look at before I bid. If I see something I like and the end of the auction is 10-12 hours away and there are only 3 or 4 bidders, that's one I usually do a hawk move on at the last 10 seconds. I win about 80 per cent of my auctions this way. However, sometimes I see a quad of Telefunken's go for $90 and then three hours later another quad goes for $225. I look at them and the tubes in both auctions are real Tele's and they test as new or almost new...so I don't know why one goes so high a few hours later. 

I bought several quads of NOS Raytheon BP's and got them both for under $80. Now I am paying over $80 for four. I'm just glad I got some at a cheaper price. I feel real good when I make a good buy on tubes. The RCA Mullards I won a few days ago really was a sweet deal.

I've gotten pretty good at playing the EBAY game. It takes a little patience and the ability to get online often. I went from two to three computers and one of them is dedicated to being on EBAY 24/7. I've actually set my alarm and gotten up at around 3:30 AM to check bids or make a bid. Sometimes you have to get serious if you want to win.


----------



## ken361

You guys hear of tube grinders or tech tube? they seem pretty good.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's coming from Lori Silberberg (greengirl613). All BIN tubes, no bids. She has a lot of tubes listed.

ken361, there has been much discussion about Tech Tube. Their first run of E813CCs was very microphonic. From what I have read, they are working hard to correct this. I'm hoping for good things from them in the future, but I'm not buying into it yet. There are too many great NOS tubes around for the same price or less.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> It's coming from Lori Silberberg (greengirl613). All BIN tubes, no bids. She has a lot of tubes listed.
> 
> ken361, there has been much discussion about Tech Tube. Their first run of E813CCs was very microphonic. From what I have read, they are working hard to correct this. I'm hoping for good things from them in the future, but I'm not buying into it yet. There are too many great NOS tubes around for the same price or less.



would be nice to see them in the usa some time in the future huh!!


----------



## RiverRatt

It would be nice to be able to buy a CP tube that is as good as the old ones. It's a shame that they can't use the Mullard name, even though they are made in the Blackburn plant. 

I found a link to a Phillips booklet called "Phillips Factory Valve Codes" from 2005. If any of you haven't seen it, it's a pretty good reference.

http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got mail! Marty's care package arrived just now. I've got all these goodies to play with, and I'll be stuck at this computer until midnight. I may have to go home early tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I've bought from GreenGirl. She started out small, but has gotten bigger. I wonder how some of these people come across all of these tubes. 

Tina used to be small, but now she is selling lots of eight, xf2 Double O Mullards NIB for thousands of dollars and she has like four lots! Then she has lots of four of the same tubes for sale and a bunch of preamp tubes.

I talked to an EBAY husband and wife team and the husband was out almost all of the time looking for possible buy sites. Homes, businesses, estate sales, any place he might find tubes or other items to sell. He would come home for three days, help his wife do an inventory and set pricing. Then on the road he went again and she would set up all of the listings and handle the shipping. They make 85 to 100K a year, but is it worth it? (Oh, no kids.)


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> It's coming from Lori Silberberg (greengirl613). All BIN tubes, no bids. She has a lot of tubes listed.
> 
> ken361, there has been much discussion about Tech Tube. Their first run of E813CCs was very microphonic. From what I have read, they are working hard to correct this. I'm hoping for good things from them in the future, but I'm not buying into it yet. There are too many great NOS tubes around for the same price or less.



Yeah i was there when they were testing it in my local music store in Blackburn...

Some exects from Techtube came to the shop and were testing them in a fender blues junior.

That was around 4 months ago so they may have overcome the microphonic problem.

They sounded very goood!! 

Alex


----------



## solarburn

Bad news for Tech Tube quoted from another site:

Sorry to spoil everyone's party but the bad news is that Blackburn MicroTech who manufacture Techtube valves has just gone into administration (they finally ran out of money)
see here
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...60.Historic_Blackburn_firm_in_administration/

A real bummer for all those working and their families. Sad really...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I saw it coming, it was just a matter of when.

Problematic, over-priced and in short supply sort of sums up why they went down the shitter. 

Gee, I guess that means NOS tubes won't be going down in price like I had hoped.


----------



## skeezix

HI, all.... maybe this isn't the right place for it, but it looks like there are some real tuberheads here, who can hopefully help me out.... I just scored a great deal on a 2553 - $250 - Yowzah! - , and I know it had the original el34 power tubes in it (no markings of any kind, halo getter, etc), so i swapped those out for some GT-el34M's. I popped out the pre's, and in the PI slot there was a 12ax7 that just said ecc83M down the side of it in red, no mfr markings of any kind. Had an extra plastic plate set over the plate assemblies, and a square or diamond shaped getter. Chinese, maybe? I pulled the other two and didn't really pay any attention at first, ad swapped in some sovteks i had floating around, just to compare. Hmmm. It got more gain, but not as nice. Not bad, just not as nice. So i checked the ones that were in it. No mfr name or logos, a halo getter, and at the bottom, two rows of three character date codes in grey:

HA1
A7C​
and they have a longer plate assembly.
Were these three 12ax7's the originals as well?
When I popped these back in, it just..... shimmers. Like I said, I lost a little gain, but only a smidge, and it still has a buttload of gain anyway. But these have it all over the sovteks. The sovteks have more lows and highs, it seems, that sort've death-metal scoop tone. Which I don't mind, but it's not really my cup of scotch. And they're not as easy to dial in the mids without it getting nasal.

These others have a real even sound all across the spectrum, and even w pre-gain, and gain master dimed, i still get real nice definition, it's creamy but not muddy, and every not in a chord is clear without overriding the other notes, y'know? It's like no matter where you set the knobs, the sound is nice. Makes me want to play all day. (You'd think I'd get better. Nope. What's up with that?)

What the hell are those?? I want more. Are they just the stock tubes marshall used in '87? (or maybe '88 - the serial # is 087601, which might be late in the run). Maybe i just got real lucky with these. Any ideas?

Any suggestions from current tube producers? Chinese? EH, 'Tung-Sol', 'Mullard', svetlana, .....? 

Thanks in advance for your time and attention to my query
Skee


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I've bought from GreenGirl. She started out small, but has gotten bigger. I wonder how some of these people come across all of these tubes.
> 
> Tina used to be small, but now she is selling lots of eight, xf2 Double O Mullards NIB for thousands of dollars and she has like four lots! Then she has lots of four of the same tubes for sale and a bunch of preamp tubes.
> 
> I talked to an EBAY husband and wife team and the husband was out almost all of the time looking for possible buy sites. Homes, businesses, estate sales, any place he might find tubes or other items to sell. He would come home for three days, help his wife do an inventory and set pricing. Then on the road he went again and she would set up all of the listings and handle the shipping. They make 85 to 100K a year, but is it worth it? (Oh, no kids.)



I bought from Greengirl too. I think they have some good tubes. I got three NOS Sylvanias from her. I would buy from you again, just because of the positive experience in terms of fast shipping and just a positive vibe in dealing with customers. 

But yeah, there seems to be a big market for tubes these days, especially the vintage ones. Not sure if it's because I always look for them, but some of these people are sitting on piles of NOS good tubes to sell. One guy I bought off was really good with the service aspect. Gringogrande I think and marantz as well as this other guy from the UK I believe Paulghifi. Paulghifi actually sent me a brand new Mullard tube free of charge because the other cracked at the base when I played it for a few days. 

There is a reason why some of these guys are power sellers and have 100% positive feedback.

I've also been ebaying ALOT these days for tubes and might even be bidding against some of you guys here. If the tubes are good I do the eagle thing at the last 10 seconds before the auction ends and it works 80% of the time.

Happy budding for tubes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

SKEEZIX, I'm pretty sure you have some 7th Generation Chinese tubes. When Joe (Solarburn) reads this he can confirm this for me. A lot of people like them in their amps. They are still available from certain online tube vendors, so they can be obtained if you want more of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JAE, although I am still buying 12AX7 tubes, I have sort of went into an EL34 buying mode. I will say that it would be nice if you and I were the only two bidders on EBAY, but it just ain't so.:eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> SKEEZIX, I'm pretty sure you have some 7th Generation Chinese tubes. When Joe (Solarburn) reads this he can confirm this for me. A lot of people like them in their amps. They are still available from certain online tube vendors, so they can be obtained if you want more of them.



I think so too. Pretty sure these are older 7th generation Chinese tubes. The newest Chinese offerings such as Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG and Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ are what players are finding sound good and from what I here aren't so hit and miss batch wise, more consistent and quieter. 

I have some AC5's and they are a good high gain offering which I've used in my DSL. They've been ousted by NOS at this time though hehe. They will make great back ups when I am poorer and out of NOS when that happens...


----------



## Jae

Ok, I got an NOS Sylvania 12ax7 today. It has the black plates with a square or rectangular getter. The tube looked like it was in mint shape.

However, when i put it into the V1 slot of the preamp it sounded great then suddenly cut our. I was scared, thinking the OT or something blew. I looked at the Sylvania while it was still in the V1 and noticed it was glowing ALOT more than the other tubes. i guess that is normal, not sure. Then I took it out and put the Mullard IEC back in and it worked fine. 

I put the Sylvania back in and the same problem, no sound, just hum. I moved the Sylvania back to V2 and it started working fine with the Mullard IEC in V1. Then I moved the Sylvania back to V1 and put another Sylvania (grey plate) in V2. It worked fine again.

Does anyone know what the heck could be going on here? Is it the blackplate not being compatible with the V1 slot? Again, it is a JMP'78 with cascaded preamp. Not sure.. confused!!??


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's something wrong with the tube. It probably has an intermittent short. It should work fine in any position. I'm trying to deal with a old dumb guy who sold me some tubes and two won't pass the Grid Emission test. He can't seem to understand the concept of that. 

I would try it in your other amp and see what it does in there. If it has problems, contact the seller. However, when you don't have a tester and you tell them you installed it in an amp, they can use that against you in resolving the matter. Some sellers state, "Not responsible for how the tube will work in your equipment. All equipment is different. No returns, no warranty. As is."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I still haven't heard from Edicron. However, there is a lot of info on them. I did find out that they obtained and distributed NOS tubes under their label. This is to include Mullard and RFT. 

While I was looking for info, I came across this link that had already been posted. It came up on the search engine, because RFT made tubes for Edicron. In the back of my mind, I thought I had remembered seeing this. I was going to look up that link here on the thread, but it came up during my search and sure enough, Edicron was a buyer of RFT tubes. For old times sake, here is the link.

Die Geschichte der EL 34 - Seite 4 - in der DDR von RFT produzierte EL34

Here are the RFT Edicron's.






Here are some Mullard Edicron's.






Just to let you know, the seller of the Edicron's I bought lives in Turkey. It was only $12 to ship, so that is one of the reasons I decided to bid. I sent another email to Edicron and I hope I get a reply. One thing is for certain, they did in fact sell Mullard and RFT tubes under their name. I hope I get lucky and my $41 gets me a matched quad of some real EL-34's.

As much as I know about tubes, there is so much more to know. I might have heard of Edicron before, but it didn't stick. They are a huge distributor of tubes worldwide from the U.K. Apparently they do quite nicely in this very competitive market (see Joe's post about Tech Tube failing). From what I gather, they retest the tubes they buy and provide complete relabeling services for their customers. Some of their tube are made to their specifications. Anyway, they are huge and I never really knew anything about them. They've been around since 1958, so I think it's safe to say that the pre-80's Edicron 12AX7's are to be snagged if you happen to find some and that goes for any other tubes made before 1980 as well.


----------



## skeezix

MartyStrat54 said:


> SKEEZIX, I'm pretty sure you have some 7th Generation Chinese tubes. When Joe (Solarburn) reads this he can confirm this for me. A lot of people like them in their amps. They are still available from certain online tube vendors, so they can be obtained if you want more of them.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> .........Pretty sure these are older 7th generation Chinese tubes. The newest Chinese offerings such as Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG and Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ are what players are finding sound good and from what I here aren't so hit and miss batch wise, more consistent and quieter. (




Wow!! Thanks for the info, guys. Would these tubes have been available around '95 or '97-ish?
I ask because i have no idea about the amp's "provenance" (if that's the right word?). I got it at a yard/estate sale. Apparently Grandma had died, and the family had to drive down from Oregon. Nobody knew for sure where the amp in her garage had come from, except the lady said "It must have been my uncle Jimmy's, he was in a band before, but he died in a bike wreck when I was like, 12, or 13... so that was, 1995, '96, maybe? I don't think anybody's used it since then."

They had already offed a different Marshall ("but that one was black and gold"), a 4by cab, and an SG or SG-clone ("You know like in 'School of Rock'? I love that movie!") for $200 each. Mine was an extra $50 cause of the anniversary tag on the front. "So, it's like a special edition or something, right?"

I really did try to explain that, working or not, it was worth a helluva lot more than two-fitty, but they just wanted to wrap everything up, quick-like.

It's pristine - that Tolex is perfect (although it needed a coat of Armor-All), no scratches on the faceplate, nothin'. 

Sorry for babbling onandonandonandon, I'm just really jazzed about this little baby.

I saw a pic of a generic "Chinese 12ax7a" that was dead nuts like the one I have with the red stencil on it, complete to the extra metal retainer/support cage they put around the plates, so I guess that pegs that one.

As for these 7th-gen ones, what are the benefits/drawbacks to having the longer plate? Is that for tone or longevity, or....?

Oh, one other thing; when I power it up, the 7th-gen ones FLASH really bright, and then dim down, and slowly brighten up again. Is that normal? Or is it a sign they're going out? The other ones don't do that.

Okay, wait... one _other_ other thing. She came with the full-metal jacket tube covers with the springs inside, yeah? And it seems like, if I play with those off, it gets a tiny bit more gain. Does that make sense? What's up with that?

Anyway, thanks again to both of you; big ups for the info and the prompt reply. (I owe both of you a beer now).

--Skee


----------



## solarburn

skeezix said:


> Wow!! Thanks for the info, guys. Would these tubes have been available around '95 or '97-ish?
> I ask because i have no idea about the amp's "provenance" (if that's the right word?). I got it at a yard/estate sale. Apparently Grandma had died, and the family had to drive down from Oregon. Nobody knew for sure where the amp in her garage had come from, except the lady said "It must have been my uncle Jimmy's, he was in a band before, but he died in a bike wreck when I was like, 12, or 13... so that was, 1995, '96, maybe? I don't think anybody's used it since then."
> 
> They had already offed a different Marshall ("but that one was black and gold"), a 4by cab, and an SG or SG-clone ("You know like in 'School of Rock'? I love that movie!") for $200 each. Mine was an extra $50 cause of the anniversary tag on the front. "So, it's like a special edition or something, right?"
> 
> I really did try to explain that, working or not, it was worth a helluva lot more than two-fitty, but they just wanted to wrap everything up, quick-like.
> 
> It's pristine - that Tolex is perfect (although it needed a coat of Armor-All), no scratches on the faceplate, nothin'.
> 
> Sorry for babbling onandonandonandon, I'm just really jazzed about this little baby.
> 
> I saw a pic of a generic "Chinese 12ax7a" that was dead nuts like the one I have with the red stencil on it, complete to the extra metal retainer/support cage they put around the plates, so I guess that pegs that one.
> 
> As for these 7th-gen ones, what are the benefits/drawbacks to having the longer plate? Is that for tone or longevity, or....?
> 
> Oh, one other thing; when I power it up, the 7th-gen ones FLASH really bright, and then dim down, and slowly brighten up again. Is that normal? Or is it a sign they're going out? The other ones don't do that.
> 
> Okay, wait... one _other_ other thing. She came with the full-metal jacket tube covers with the springs inside, yeah? And it seems like, if I play with those off, it gets a tiny bit more gain. Does that make sense? What's up with that?
> 
> Anyway, thanks again to both of you; big ups for the info and the prompt reply. (I owe both of you a beer now).
> 
> --Skee



Keep the shield on. Some tubes will flash like that. My Mullard AT7 does that too. Nothing to worry about as long as it works right. 

My AC5's are short plate not long plate. Another reason I think you have the older generation Chinese offering.

Read what this guy says about Chinese preamp tubes. Not everyone likes Chinese tubes. I think the newer ones are better than older offerings.

Many amp companies, like Boogie and Bogner, design their products using Chinese preamp tubes. The only reason I can think of why they do this, is if the amp still sounds ok with these tubes, it can't get any worse. In my ears the Chinese preamp tubes are the worst I've ever heard. If you are a high gain freak that loves piercing and buzzy (!) sounding highs and clarity isn't your biggest concern, then buy them right away. But if you are looking for tone, decent gain, reliability, dynamic and non buzzing sound then please leave them alone. In my opinion almost any tube is an upgrade from a Chinese preamp tube. 

Same guy says this later in his writing:

I read that the current production of the preamp tubes in China have been improved. 

He also gushes over JJ ECC83S's which killed any sort of dynamic playing on either channel of my amp and dulled it to where I flat lined while playing. I actually like the ECC803S in V1 though but thats it for JJ's in the preamp section hehe.

So take his view with a grain of salt and decide for yourself by using them. I actually try them and make my own opinion of any tube I'm interested in. Course there are some opines here I trust in.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a weird coincidence. My uncle was at an antique mall about 30 minutes from my office, and found a box of tubes. I drove up today to check it out, and it was a bunch of oddball TV tubes. But, as I was browsing around, I found that box from the estate sale a couple of weeks ago! I passed on it then, but the guy who bought it let me pick out a few of the tubes. No real treasures, but one was an Arcturus 12AZ7, which I've never seen in person, a Tung-Sol 12AT7, and a Sylvania 12BH7. Both the 12AZ7 and the 12AT7 look like Raytheon short black plate tubes. The 12AZ7 has an extra mica spacer at the top. All these things have a gain factor of 60-ish. I thought the Arcturus was neat - cool logo and it was in its original box.


----------



## solarburn

Oh and you got a killer deal on that! Nice!(skeezix)


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Keep the shield on. Some tubes will flash like that. My Mullard AT7 does that too. Nothing to worry about as long as it works right.
> 
> My AC5's are short plate not long plate. Another reason I think you have the older generation Chinese offering.
> 
> Read what this guy says about Chinese preamp tubes. Not everyone likes Chinese tubes. I think the newer ones are better than older offerings.
> 
> Many amp companies, like Boogie and Bogner, design their products using Chinese preamp tubes. The only reason I can think of why they do this, is if the amp still sounds ok with these tubes, it can't get any worse. In my ears the Chinese preamp tubes are the worst I've ever heard. If you are a high gain freak that loves piercing and buzzy (!) sounding highs and clarity isn't your biggest concern, then buy them right away. But if you are looking for tone, decent gain, reliability, dynamic and non buzzing sound then please leave them alone. In my opinion almost any tube is an upgrade from a Chinese preamp tube.
> 
> Same guy says this later in his writing:
> 
> I read that the current production of the preamp tubes in China have been improved.
> 
> He also gushes over JJ ECC83S's which killed any sort of dynamic playing on either channel of my amp and dulled it to where I flat lined while playing. I actually like the ECC803S in V1 though but thats it for JJ's in the preamp section hehe.
> 
> So take his view with a grain of salt and decide for yourself by using them. I actually try them and make my own opinion of any tube I'm interested in. Course there are some opines here I trust in.



you saying you think the jj 83's kinda dull it? maybe to warm? well it kinda does when I think of it. Maybe keep harshness down?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some people will buy all JJ power and preamp tubes. To this I say, "Yuck!" If you like JJ that's fine. I think a lot of people buy JJ because they are looking to spend the least amount of money and JJ's are the cheapest.

I've seen guys take JJ 12AX7's and put them in all four slots of a DSL or TSL. This immediately darkens the tone of the amp and it is not as articulate sounding. I say if you are going to use a JJ, put it in V4 (or the Phase Inverter slot such as V3 on an 800).

I go to other forums and a lot of the other sites are very hard on JJ power tubes. Many talk about amp damage due to a JJ power tube failing. That used to be my biggest fear, power tube failing in my amp. I ran the better quality Winged =C='s. However, I run NOS power tubes, because I want reliability.

There are so many tubes out there and what one guy thinks is good, it can be crap to another. I don't try to bad-mouth the type of tubes anyone uses, but some people seem to need a push in the right direction. My main creed is, "You get what you pay for." If you buy the cheapest, it can nip you in the ass.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Some people will buy all JJ power and preamp tubes. To this I say, "Yuck!" If you like JJ that's fine. I think a lot of people buy JJ because they are looking to spend the least amount of money and JJ's are the cheapest.
> 
> I've seen guys take JJ 12AX7's and put them in all four slots of a DSL or TSL. This immediately darkens the tone of the amp and it is not as articulate sounding. I say if you are going to use a JJ, put it in V4 (or the Phase Inverter slot such as V3 on an 800).
> 
> I go to other forums and a lot of the other sites are very hard on JJ power tubes. Many talk about amp damage due to a JJ power tube failing. That used to be my biggest fear, power tube failing in my amp. I ran the better quality Winged =C='s. However, I run NOS power tubes, because I want reliability.
> 
> There are so many tubes out there and what one guy thinks is good, it can be crap to another. I don't try to bad-mouth the type of tubes anyone uses, but some people seem to need a push in the right direction. My main creed is, "You get what you pay for." If you buy the cheapest, it can nip you in the ass.



I thought the jj/mesa sounded smoother then most tubes in my old bugera then I see marshall uses them In the jvm and the chinese also. I also have some groove tube mullard tubes relabled by penta labs, these are pretty good i have to try them in my marshall! So I have the winged c in my jcm as the stock tubes? should I keep the c's in when I ever do retube?? and what are your preamp choices? thanks! aslo have a rft, 2 tele's 12ax7


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Some people will buy all JJ power and preamp tubes. To this I say, "Yuck!" If you like JJ that's fine. I think a lot of people buy JJ because they are looking to spend the least amount of money and JJ's are the cheapest.
> 
> I've seen guys take JJ 12AX7's and put them in all four slots of a DSL or TSL. This immediately darkens the tone of the amp and it is not as articulate sounding. I say if you are going to use a JJ, put it in V4 (or the Phase Inverter slot such as V3 on an 800).
> 
> I go to other forums and a lot of the other sites are very hard on JJ power tubes. Many talk about amp damage due to a JJ power tube failing. That used to be my biggest fear, power tube failing in my amp. I ran the better quality Winged =C='s. However, I run NOS power tubes, because I want reliability.
> 
> There are so many tubes out there and what one guy thinks is good, it can be crap to another. I don't try to bad-mouth the type of tubes anyone uses, but some people seem to need a push in the right direction. My main creed is, "You get what you pay for." If you buy the cheapest, it can nip you in the ass.




JJ power tubes in my amp wouldn't bias and red plated.

Also, I think we need to join both this thread and the power tubes thread into one giant thread. Is there any way we can get the title of this thread changed to just; "Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why and How?"

And Marty, I might be looking to buy some N.O.S tubes soon (Birthday in like 3 weeks = money for me =D) Dunno if I'll buy tubes or new pickups or something yet, but yeah. suggestions?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> you saying you think the jj 83's kinda dull it? maybe to warm? well it kinda does when I think of it. Maybe keep harshness down?



I think they roll off the topend too much but I also didn't like the response of the mids either. There isn't much clarity and openness to them. I know guys like these in bright amps but I have to say I have a bright amp and just felt they were flat sounding using all 4 in the preamp section. 

Now the ECC803s has the upper end in tact but what really sounds good on it is its mids and lowend. Its lower gain than the ECC83S but really still has plenty on tap. The only problem is its a long plate and very microphonic in high gain slots. So far mine has not died yet and isn't whinning through in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> [*Now the ECC803s*] has the upper end in tact but what really sounds good on it is its mids and lowend. Its lower gain than the ECC83S but really still has plenty on tap. [*The only problem is its a long plate and very microphonic in high gain slots.*] So far mine has not died yet and isn't whinning through in V1.



And that is why I haven't been suggesting this JJ. Sound wise, it's probably their best, but it is problematic in a hostile environment, such as my TSL122 combo. It just wouldn't cut it. I got the old "spirit" echo coming from the tube. I bought a couple of these 803S and in my tube Hi Fi amp they sounded pretty good, but in my TSL122, it was like it was coming apart at the seams.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Ratt and Joe. Here is an excerpt from a tube site in regard to how long an EL34 tube lasts. So if you are afraid that they are going to wear out fast...not so.

The EL-34 tube is capable of MAXIMUM plate voltage of 800 volts and peak power at 25 watts! Of course, these are absolute maximum readings, at which stage nuclear meltdown occurs! In typical class A operation, I have seen suggested specs of 250 volts on the plate and screen, giving a conservative power output of 11 watts. The vintage versions of this tube have no problem running at 440 volts on plate and screen at about -38 to -42 bias volts, and this is what is often found in vintage amps. Unfortunately, Russian and Chinese tubes begin to spit and spark at these voltages, which is why the British and Dutch vintage EL34 tubes are so much in demand. These tubes are getting pricey and hard to come by. <<These tubes last so long, that used ones testing sufficiently above minimum Gm are usually priced nearly as high as NOS versions, and it is often difficult to tell NOS from used on the open market as most of the boxes have rotted away!>>


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> And that is why I haven't been suggesting this JJ. Sound wise, it's probably their best, but it is problematic in a hostile environment, such as my TSL122 combo. It just wouldn't cut it. I got the old "spirit" echo coming from the tube. I bought a couple of these 803S and in my tube Hi Fi amp they sounded pretty good, but in my TSL122, it was like it was coming apart at the seams.



Yeah from all the input I've heard on this its days are numbered. Good sounding but short lived. I don't recommend these cause of this too.

I don't mind experimenting a little now and then since I have a cache of stellar NOS tubes to fall back on hehe.


----------



## ken361

what 34's are you guys using?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Ratt and Joe. Here is an excerpt from a tube site in regard to how long an EL34 tube lasts. So if you are afraid that they are going to wear out fast...not so.
> 
> The EL-34 tube is capable of MAXIMUM plate voltage of 800 volts and peak power at 25 watts! Of course, these are absolute maximum readings, at which stage nuclear meltdown occurs! In typical class A operation, I have seen suggested specs of 250 volts on the plate and screen, giving a conservative power output of 11 watts. The vintage versions of this tube have no problem running at 440 volts on plate and screen at about -38 to -42 bias volts, and this is what is often found in vintage amps. Unfortunately, Russian and Chinese tubes begin to spit and spark at these voltages, which is why the British and Dutch vintage EL34 tubes are so much in demand. These tubes are getting pricey and hard to come by. <<These tubes last so long, that used ones testing sufficiently above minimum Gm are usually priced nearly as high as NOS versions, and it is often difficult to tell NOS from used on the open market as most of the boxes have rotted away!>>



Good to know man!


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> what 34's are you guys using?



NOS I'm using RFT EL34's. Nice and warm with plenty of punch. Lately I have been demoing some Winged =C='s to see what the hubbubs about and I have to say they are very good for my classic rock and blues playing. Nice and open sounding at higher volumes and pretty balanced throughout.

I've used Tung Sol's, Shuguang's(Ruby BSTR's), KT-77's. I have a pair of JJ EL34L's I haven't tried yet. All the ones above were different and sounded good respectively. At volume is where I find some outclass the others.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah from all the input I've heard on this its days are numbered. Good sounding but short lived. I don't recommend these cause of this too.
> 
> I don't mind experimenting a little now and then since I have a cache of stellar NOS tubes to fall back on hehe.



When you got a "standard" to compare other tubes to, it makes it fun to buy CP tubes and see how they stack up. There were several tube manufacturers that have recently came out with new preamp tubes. I bought a couple of each and I have to ask, "When are they going to come out with a winner?" They have been doing it so long and NOS still rules. As I said this with Tech Tube. Please come out with a solid CP tube that rivals the sound and "reliability" of NOS and I will buy it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty is converting us to RFT users. I just got my pair for the DSL and I'm really impressed. I never even got past the clean (not crunch) channel. It really nails that early AC/DC tone, much better than it did with the GT EL34M's or the Svets that came with it. The neighbors are probably starting to get pissed - every time I walk past it I have to sit down and play. 

Joe, I also got a Raytheon black plate to go with the RFTs. I haven't tried it with all my other 12AX7's but so far I like what I'm hearing. I find that I'm using less gain than before.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> At volume is where I find some outclass the others.



Yeah, with the RFTs my neighbors are finding that out, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, with the RFTs my neighbors are finding that out, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Marty is converting us to RFT users. I just got my pair for the DSL and I'm really impressed. I never even got past the clean (not crunch) channel. It really nails that early AC/DC tone, much better than it did with the GT EL34M's or the Svets that came with it. The neighbors are probably starting to get pissed - every time I walk past it I have to sit down and play.
> 
> Joe, I also got a Raytheon black plate to go with the RFTs. I haven't tried it with all my other 12AX7's but so far I like what I'm hearing. I find that I'm using less gain than before.



Its a winner for sure. Love its personality!


----------



## Jae

I know it's been a while, but the last time i told you my Yellow print Mullard cracked at the base and the guy was going to send me a new one. Turns out the new tube is a reissue tube.

But! I guess I was expecting too much . Better than nothing?


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> I know it's been a while, but the last time i told you my Yellow print Mullard cracked at the base and the guy was going to send me a new one. Turns out the new tube is a reissue tube.
> 
> But! I guess I was expecting too much . Better than nothing?



One of the better sounding CP out there. I like them. Mine were not yellow print though...? Was it a rebrand too and do you know who?

Here is what mine looks like:

http://thetubestore.com/mu12ax7.html


----------



## Jae

solarburnDSL50 said:


> One of the better sounding CP out there. I like them. Mine were not yellow print though...? Was it a rebrand too and do you know who?
> 
> Here is what mine looks like:
> 
> Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83



Hey, I didn't know that. On mine it doesn't say made in Russia or in Britain. It looks like yours with the "transformers"like logo.


----------



## Jesstaa

Hey guys, I've asked this before I think, but not sure. 

Anybody know anything about Chinese made tubes, labelled National?
they sound pretty nice, the logo rubs off slightly (Assuming they're slightly older tubes) but the weird thing is, they have a getter between the top 2 micas, leaving a ring of getter flash. I found it odd
Here's a pic






It also has a logo on the side (Don't have any pictures, can't be arsed taking one) which is a crosshairs with a 1.


----------



## solarburn

Jesstaa said:


> Hey guys, I've asked this before I think, but not sure.
> 
> Anybody know anything about Chinese made tubes, labelled National?
> they sound pretty nice, the logo rubs off slightly (Assuming they're slightly older tubes) but the weird thing is, they have a getter between the top 2 micas, leaving a ring of getter flash. I found it odd
> Here's a pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It also has a logo on the side (Don't have any pictures, can't be arsed taking one) which is a crosshairs with a 1.



Scroll down this page and there is a pic of a ecc82 National tube but not much info. I saw this the other day. I'm sure there is info on National out there...maybe...

http://www.fbk.eur.nl/BIT/ALGEMEEN/MEMBERS/MHM/gear/preamptubes.html


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Hey, I didn't know that. On mine it doesn't say made in Russia or in Britain. It looks like yours with the "transformers"like logo.



Is this what your Mullard looked like?

ECC83 @ The National Valve Museum


----------



## Jesstaa

Hmm, their national looks much different to mine, hang on, I have another picture.

But what's up with the getter ring?


----------



## solarburn

Jesstaa, it looks like National put their brand/label on a few tubes including RFT's ECC83's, Chinese etc...


----------



## Jesstaa

Mm, so looks like I'll have to wait for the tube expert (Marty) to drop in and tell me what this tube really is.


----------



## Jae

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Is this what your Mullard looked like?
> 
> ECC83 @ The National Valve Museum



Yes. That is what it looks like. However, it doesn't say Gr. Brit. or Russia, but it looks too new to be NOS. I'll post a pic of it when I get the chance.


----------



## Jesstaa

Jae said:


> Yes. That is what it looks like. However, it doesn't say Gr. Brit. or Russia, but it looks too new to be NOS. I'll post a pic of it when I get the chance.



Does the print rub off?


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Yes. That is what it looks like. However, it doesn't say Gr. Brit. or Russia, but it looks too new to be NOS. I'll post a pic of it when I get the chance.



I'm curios cause i haven't seen the yellow print on a RI Mullard...


----------



## Procter2812

Jesstaa said:


> Hmm, their national looks much different to mine, hang on, I have another picture.
> 
> But what's up with the getter ring?



Its a Chinese valve.... Marshall use them as stock in their current amps.

Personally i dont like them.... i have had 5 microphonic ones out of a total of 8!!

They sound decent but nowhere near as good as other brands and of course NOS



Alex


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> Its a Chinese valve.... Marshall use them as stock in their current amps.



Are these the ones with the white Marshall logo and ECC83 printed vertically on the tube? If so, I'm using them in V3 and V4. They seem to sound as good in those spots as any NOS 12AX7 I've got, so why waste good tubes?


----------



## Jesstaa

They look similar, but not identical, for one, the Marshall tubes don't have a ring getter on them. Which is, imo, the main identifying feature for this valve.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got my Mullard in just now. It is a GE 6681 re-label. At the top it says 12AX7 GT. BRITAIN. It is a 163, date code B6K1. IIRC, that is a Blackburn tube made in the first week of October in 1966?

So is this a true 6681 or just a very rugged 12AX7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Got my Mullard in just now. It is a GE 6681 re-label. At the top it says 12AX7 GT. BRITAIN. It is a 163, date code B6K1. IIRC, that is a Blackburn tube made in the first week of October in 1966?
> 
> So is this a true 6681 or just a very rugged 12AX7?



My, my there are a lot of posts to answer. As I stated to you prior, the 6681 was an industrial tube like a 7025. However, it was made at the time most tube companies were folding. Certain companies had a need for this tube and orders were filled. If it doesn't say 6681 on the tube, it probably isn't a real 6681. Even if it does, it may not be one. Whacky things were going on and each company was swapping tubes with other companies and putting their brands on the tubes. Tubes were being made in Japan and sold as, "Made in USA." 

The good thing is that at least it's a Mullard and that's a great tube. Let me know if it says 6681 on the tube, or if it was just on the box (if it came with one).


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm curios cause i haven't seen the yellow print on a RI Mullard...



The Yellow print Mullards were NOS tubes that he had bought. There are no CP Mullards this way. All CP tubes have different ink that doesn't rub off and the logo's are usually acid etched on the glass.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> The good thing is that at least it's a Mullard and that's a great tube. Let me know if it says 6681 on the tube, or if it was just on the box (if it came with one).



I wasn't very clear - I'm in a rush trying to get this month's invoices mailed out so I can get to the high school football game this evening. It does say 6681, but otherwise it looks like a plain ol' Mullard.


----------



## Jae

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm curios cause i haven't seen the yellow print on a RI Mullard...



Sorry. I meant that the guy originally sent me a pair of matched Yellow print Mullards. After one of them cracked at the base he said he didn't have any more Yellow prints so he'd send me another Mullard white print.

Actually, the Mullard symbol (looks like a transformers logo) does rub off.
It reads like this:

Mullard
ECC83
BVA

And on the other side it says 42D3. I'm guessing it must be NOS then. The made in Gr. Brit. logo must have rubbed off.

Sorry I couldn't post a pic yet. I'll do that asap when I get the chance. Don't have the camera on me now.
Thanks for all the input though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Mm, so looks like I'll have to wait for the tube expert (Marty) to drop in and tell me what this tube really is.



Yeah, we talked about this tube before. National used to be a big East German manufacturer and it shut down and a Chinese company bought the rights to the name. 

Older National tubes can be anything from Mullards to RFT's. So you could actually find some old EL-34's that are marked National and they are actually Mullard's or RFT's. Same thing with small preamp tubes.

What you have is a Chinese tube made with the National name.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I wasn't very clear - I'm in a rush trying to get this month's invoices mailed out so I can get to the high school football game this evening. It does say 6681, but otherwise it looks like a plain ol' Mullard.



That's what it looks like to me. Keep in mind, that as good as the American companies were at making tubes, the Brit's, Dutch and German's made their tubes even better. Maybe this was a Mullard 12AX7A/7025 and they just put 6681 on it instead. The wires at the base look to be of normal size. Generally, a "ruggedized" version has thicker wire used in the construction of the tube.

The main thing is, "How does it sound?"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Sorry. I meant that the guy originally sent me a pair of matched Yellow print Mullards. After one of them cracked at the base he said he didn't have any more Yellow prints so he'd send me another Mullard white print.
> 
> Actually, the Mullard symbol (looks like a transformers logo) does rub off.
> It reads like this:
> 
> Mullard
> ECC83
> BVA
> 
> And on the other side it says 42D3. I'm guessing it must be NOS then. The made in Gr. Brit. logo must have rubbed off.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't post a pic yet. I'll do that asap when I get the chance. Don't have the camera on me now.
> Thanks for all the input though.



BVA is a dead give away that it isn't a CP tube. If it has the "pinched top" then it's a real Mullard. Also, if the size of the tube is the same as the Yellow print tubes that's another sign of it being NOS. New Mullards have logos that do not rub off. They are etched in the glass. The physical width of the tube is larger on a CP Mullard.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Sorry. I meant that the guy originally sent me a pair of matched Yellow print Mullards. After one of them cracked at the base he said he didn't have any more Yellow prints so he'd send me another Mullard white print.
> 
> Actually, the Mullard symbol (looks like a transformers logo) does rub off.
> It reads like this:
> 
> Mullard
> ECC83
> BVA
> 
> And on the other side it says 42D3. I'm guessing it must be NOS then. The made in Gr. Brit. logo must have rubbed off.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't post a pic yet. I'll do that asap when I get the chance. Don't have the camera on me now.
> Thanks for all the input though.



Gotcha bruther.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Yellow print Mullards were NOS tubes that he had bought. There are no CP Mullards this way. All CP tubes have different ink that doesn't rub off and the logo's are usually acid etched on the glass.



Thought so and I misunderstood what he was saying too about getting an RI sent to him in replacement of the cracked one.


----------



## Jae

Hey all. I think this was already talked about before, but it would be nice to have a very accurate tube tester. I don't care about the cost. It would be better to get a decent bang for the buck.

Can you recommend what are good testers I should look for? I checked on ebay and they seem to have some good priced ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Didn't we go over this? I know that Josh asked and I posted a long reply.

There are two types of tube testers, emissions and mutual conductance. The emissions tester is cheap to buy and doesn't give accurate test results. If a tube is good, it will usually read very high. Again, it's inaccurate. The mutual conductance tester is what you want. Didn't I discuss the smaller B and K 600 Series with you? Anyway, the B and K's are very good. If you can, step up to a 707 or 747. Also, I believe I mentioned that you do take a risk when you buy a 50 year old tube tester. Some may be in desperate need of calibration and others may have physical wear such as the tube sockets being bad.

Another brand is Hickok. These usually go for more money than a B and K. You have to be real careful about which model you buy. Some do not test 9 pin tubes and that would be a drag. Always confirm that the tester will test 7, 9, octal and NOVAR style tubes. NOVARS are your large, 9 pin power tubes such as a 7868.

Hickok also made a military tester called a TV-7. Like a regular Hickok, it is difficult to set up for testing, but it does provide solid test reports. These testers have been drummed up in price.

I would get a B and K, because they are so easy to set up and test a wide variety of tubes at the same time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd love to snag this B&K tester, but it's a bit more than I can afford right now.

B&K 707 TUBE TESTER CLEANED SERVICED AND CALIBRATED - eBay (item 140347797570 end time Oct-02-09 19:45:41 PDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'd love to snag this B&K tester, but it's a bit more than I can afford right now.
> 
> B&K 707 TUBE TESTER CLEANED SERVICED AND CALIBRATED - eBay (item 140347797570 end time Oct-02-09 19:45:41 PDT)



That's a nice one. However they did not convert the tube rectifier over to solid state like I have. Much more reliable with the SS. However, it is a real nice unit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since we're talking tube testers, what the hell is a "rejuvenator"?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Since we're talking tube testers, what the hell is a "rejuvenator"?



What tester did you see this on? It might be a twisted way to say, "Life Test."

One thing is for sure. If there was any kind of device that could rejuvenate audio tubes it would be in very high demand. "Hey, my Black Plate is a little worn out." "No problem. Let me rejuvenate it."


----------



## Jae

Ok, here is a picture of the Mullard I got to replace the Yellow that cracked. It seems like it is an NOS made in Britain because the print rubbed off. However, at first I didn't think so, because it looked too new.

Let me know what you think.??


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Ok, here is a picture of the Mullard I got to replace the Yellow that cracked. It seems like it is an NOS made in Britain because the print rubbed off. However, at first I didn't think so, because it looked too new.
> 
> Let me know what you think.??



That's not current production. I'm sure Marty will peg it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE and ALAN: I think I might be getting a little ticked on the Edicron purchase from "Turkey." I just got an email from an Edicron employee that states:

Dear Marty

Under the Edicron name it should say EL34 and under that should be a 5-character code. If you can tell me what it is, I will then be able to tell you where they were made.

However I am puzzled, as far as I can remember, we never printed "Made in England" on any of our valves.

Await to hear from you.
Regards
Peter Cruh
admin@edicron.co.uk

So the seller put in big letters, "Made In England." I sent Peter an email asking about what the tubes could be if they are pre-80's tubes. I told him that I will send him the 5 digit code once I get the tubes. If these are Russian or Chinese tubes, I will throw a fit and hopefully the seller will just refund my money and I get to keep the 50 cent tubes. I guess if they were made by Winged =C= they would be worth a dollar. I'll keep you posted. It will probably be at least another full week before I get the tubes.

More info: There was only one photo included with the listing. I have been able to determine by enlarging it that 3 of the tubes have the same code and one has a different code. I also left a message with the seller asking him to explain the "Made In England" comment on his listing. I'm glad I'm only out about $50 on this deal. If it turns out to be a big crock of shit, I'll bend over and you two can take turns kicking me in the ass.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE and ALAN: I think I might be getting a little ticked on the Edicron purchase from "Turkey." I just got an email from an Edicron employee that states:
> 
> Dear Marty
> 
> Under the Edicron name it should say EL34 and under that should be a 5-character code. If you can tell me what it is, I will then be able to tell you where they were made.
> 
> However I am puzzled, as far as I can remember, we never printed "Made in England" on any of our valves.
> 
> Await to hear from you.
> Regards
> Peter Cruh
> admin@edicron.co.uk
> 
> So the seller put in big letters, "Made In England." I sent Peter an email asking about what the tubes could be if they are pre-80's tubes. I told him that I will send him the 5 digit code once I get the tubes. If these are Russian or Chinese tubes, I will throw a fit and hopefully the seller will just refund my money and I get to keep the 50 cent tubes. I guess if they were made by Winged =C= they would be worth a dollar. I'll keep you posted. It will probably be at least another full week before I get the tubes.
> 
> More info: There was only one photo included with the listing. I have been able to determine by enlarging it that 3 of the tubes have the same code and one has a different code. I also left a message with the seller asking him to explain the "Made In England" comment on his listing. I'm glad I'm only out about $50 on this deal. If it turns out to be a big crock of shit, I'll bend over and you two can take turns kicking me in the ass.:eek2::eek2:



That's cool you got a hold of an Edicron employee to help sort this out. Man I hope its not a bust. Definitely discrepancies there. Let us know how this goes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Ok, here is a picture of the Mullard I got to replace the Yellow that cracked. It seems like it is an NOS made in Britain because the print rubbed off. However, at first I didn't think so, because it looked too new.
> 
> Let me know what you think.??



That's still an expensive tube. It was made between 1960 and 1970. I has the more modern logo, but still has "BVA" on the tube (British Radio Valve Association). Also, this tube was available in yellow print as well. You are lucky that your seller is so generous. That's about an $80 Mullard valve.

Edit: The "Made In Gt. Britain" has been rubbed off of the bottom of the tube.


----------



## Jae

Oops, now I feel bad about saying it was CP. 
I gotta thank the guy for the tube.

What a generous guy.


----------



## Jae

Sorry for keep asking about tube testers, but check this one out on ebay. It looks a like a good deal considering that it's under $100 and from what he says, fully calibrated and everything.

B&K 747B Tube Tester Professional Calibration Service on eBay.ca (item 380036050468 end time 02-Oct-09 22:04:43 EDT)

Not sure if it's a mutual conductance tester or an emissions tester. How can you tell if it is in fact a mutual conductance tester?? I'm guessing the price, right?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge in this matter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, that is not a listing for a tester. That is a listing for doing service on a tester you already have. If you buy a B and K tester, you can have it sent to them and they will calibrate it and upgrade it. A B and K 747 usually starts at around $300 for a decent one. It's a good tester,but their all time best seller was the 707.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, we talked about this tube before. National used to be a big East German manufacturer and it shut down and a Chinese company bought the rights to the name.
> 
> Older National tubes can be anything from Mullards to RFT's. So you could actually find some old EL-34's that are marked National and they are actually Mullard's or RFT's. Same thing with small preamp tubes.
> 
> What you have is a Chinese tube made with the National name.



So what, N.O.S, CP... Good, bad. Anything else?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's what it looks like to me. Keep in mind, that as good as the American companies were at making tubes, the Brit's, Dutch and German's made their tubes even better. Maybe this was a Mullard 12AX7A/7025 and they just put 6681 on it instead. The wires at the base look to be of normal size. Generally, a "ruggedized" version has thicker wire used in the construction of the tube.
> 
> The main thing is, "How does it sound?"



It sounds good. I think it's the most quiet tube I own. I finally got to see the "flash" you guys are always talking about with Mullards. I was expecting a flash bulb effect - it's more like a small nuclear explosion.


----------



## Jae

RiverRatt said:


> It sounds good. I think it's the most quiet tube I own. I finally got to see the "flash" you guys are always talking about with Mullards. I was expecting a flash bulb effect - it's more like a small nuclear explosion.



I had to laugh at myself for asking about a SERVICE for tube testers (lol).

Anyhow, the flash from the Mullards are pretty neat. With the tubes in the sockets, when I turn my amp on all the Mullards flash like a light bulb and go back to normal. I always like to see that when i turn my amp on.

One time I was surprised was when I put a "blue" dot smooth plate telefunken in the slot and it flashed like a Mullard. I bought a quad used for before for medical equipment.
These Tele's were really neat, in that they flashed. (BTW I have the pictures posted on page 41 of this thread, but it was missed and no one noticed it..


I thought I was mistaken, so I made sure they were the blue dot Tele's and put them in again. and low and behold there was the flash... First time I've seen Tele's flash. You'll also see a blue tint on the tip of these in the pictures.


----------



## Jesstaa

Aww, my mullard doesn't flash D=

does that mean it's broken? Lol, it still sounds pretty good.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> I had to laugh at myself for asking about a SERVICE for tube testers (lol).
> 
> Anyhow, the flash from the Mullards are pretty neat. With the tubes in the sockets, when I turn my amp on all the Mullards flash like a light bulb and go back to normal. I always like to see that when i turn my amp on.
> 
> One time I was surprised was when I put a "blue" dot smooth plate telefunken in the slot and it flashed like a Mullard. I bought a quad used for before for medical equipment.
> These Tele's were really neat, in that they flashed. (BTW I have the pictures posted on page 41 of this thread, but it was missed and no one noticed it..
> 
> 
> I thought I was mistaken, so I made sure they were the blue dot Tele's and put them in again. and low and behold there was the flash... First time I've seen Tele's flash. You'll also see a blue tint on the tip of these in the pictures.



I saw the blue dot on top of those just didn't say anything. How did those sound anyways? I've never tried a Telefunken...


----------



## Jae

Jesstaa said:


> Aww, my mullard doesn't flash D=
> 
> does that mean it's broken? Lol, it still sounds pretty good.



Naw. Sometimes my Mullards don't flash in my amp when I put them in while on standby.
They usually flash when they are already in and I power up the amp.
Not sure though, might be different depensing on the amp.

But I have Mullards that flash and don't flash when I put them in. Notu sure what the reason is behind that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Aww, my mullard doesn't flash D=
> 
> does that mean it's broken? Lol, it still sounds pretty good.



If it doesn't flash, it could be an RFT that was relabeled a Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> So what, N.O.S, CP... Good, bad. Anything else?


Current Production. Not the best thing out there in the pool of CP tubes. If I had it and I had to use it, it would be in V4. You can put just about anything in there and it will work. 

I don't think that tube would blow me away in the fact that it would sound better than an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken. 

I only have limited experience with Chinese tubes and that is because I am not motivated to buy them. I have some of the better one's, but I don't use them in anything. I bought them more out of curiosity than anything else.

Some people really like Chinese tubes and if it floats your boat, great. I will say that they make some high gain tubes. They're a little noisy, but some people still like them. However, I think a lot of people like them because they are cheap.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, the buyer for my four weird-ass Tungsrams left positive feedback... I guess they were o.k. Maybe I should have went for more $$$. They only sold for $26.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Current Production. Not the best thing out there in the pool of CP tubes. If I had it and I had to use it, it would be in V4. You can put just about anything in there and it will work.
> 
> I don't think that tube would blow me away in the fact that it would sound better than an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken.
> 
> I only have limited experience with Chinese tubes and that is because I am not motivated to buy them. I have some of the better one's, but I don't use them in anything. I bought them more out of curiosity than anything else.
> 
> Some people really like Chinese tubes and if it floats your boat, great. I will say that they make some high gain tubes. They're a little noisy, but some people still like them. However, I think a lot of people like them because they are cheap.



For current production they aint too bad in my opinion. Nothing compared to my Mullard, but they still sound rich, they could be worse.


My mate is bringing around his old amp from the 70's (Made by some guy in Melbourne, Fhone amps if anybodys heard of them. Angus Young used to use them before he went to MArshall) and it's got a couple of N.O.S Preamp tubes, pretty sure one is an RCA, not sure about the other, telefunken come to mind though. I'll have to give them a shot in my amp.

BTw, this amp is 120watts, no preamp volume and I don't think it uses a master volume xD (5 knobs, volume, presence, middle, treble and bass). Gonna be a bitch to crank.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> If it doesn't flash, it could be an RFT that was relabeled a Mullard.



Oh yes, the RFTs. I guess they are Mullards with no flash.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had bought some 7025's on EBAY and some of them came in on Friday and some on Saturday. Two different lots, four tubes each, all RCA's. Six of them were bad.

I had to contact the sellers and let them know I was either returning tube for a partial refund, or returning all of the tubes for a full refund. This is the other side of tube buying that I don't often write up. I love to tell about the RCA Mullards I won, but I don't like to talk about somebody who sold me a batch of dud tubes. Even with all my expertise, I still get taken down every once in a while. 

In the past, I would eat a bad tube if the rest were good. Not any more. If there is a bad one, or several bad one's, the seller has to make a partial refund and it is up to them whether they want me to mail their worthless glass back to them. 

One of these tubes scored the all-time low. A 9-6 on my tester. The sad part is that they were listed as tested and "strong." I couldn't be doing this without my tester, it has paid for itself already. I have about 12 more tubes coming in and I hope that I have better luck.

EDICRON UPDATE-I got an email from the Turkish seller who states the EL34's are "older one's." He says he has a box that one of the tubes came in and it says, "Made in England" on the box. (Now I'm thinking that is correct. The "box" was made in England.) Anyway, I have to wait and see what I stepped in with this guy. I mean he only lives in Turkey.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Current Production. Not the best thing out there in the pool of CP tubes. If I had it and I had to use it, it would be in V4. You can put just about anything in there and it will work.
> 
> I don't think that tube would blow me away in the fact that it would sound better than an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken.
> 
> I only have limited experience with Chinese tubes and that is because I am not motivated to buy them. I have some of the better one's, but I don't use them in anything. I bought them more out of curiosity than anything else.
> 
> Some people really like Chinese tubes and if it floats your boat, great. I will say that they make some high gain tubes. They're a little noisy, but some people still like them. However, I think a lot of people like them because they are cheap.



I just noticed the original Marshall 12AX7's from my DSL are Chinese. Look just like my Ruby's.

These and JJ's are cheap although the new Chinese versions are costing more after someone's label is slapped on. You think price is the driver for why so many go with JJ's and Chinese tubes? 

Just some thoughts about Toob'n: 

I say if a person hasn't tried anything more than JJ's or Chinese how can they even know what their amp is capable of? It's taken me some time to find out and I have come to some definite conclusions in 2 of my amps. Durability and quality of tone are something I'd like to get the most of. 

You could throw just about any tube in there and if you play well it will sound good enough. I want tone and dynamics for me though. It just gives me a bit more joy hearing dynamics and feeling the sounds good NOS tubes give me as a player. 

I've pretty much tried all of the CP tubes and there are some I like but if I have a choice I will take a BP, JP, RFT, Mullard, Brimar, RCA, GE, Magnavox and 7025 RCA's. Oh wait, I already have.

I put that JJ ECC803S in the Night Train and demoed it against my JP12AX7WA. I actually like the JJ in V1 of the DSL but the JP kicked it's ass in the Night Train. I got to be fair though the JP was best to my ears in the NT over my other NOS but that was a more painstaking process due to the characters of those tubes making it harder to decide and what I wanted. 

The Night Train didn't like that 803S. It was too toppy and a bit thin. Not in the Marshall. Just the opposite. The JP smooths it out and rounds them notes off. It was a cheap experiment but one I enjoy doing for the sounds I luv from my guitar, amp/cab and me.

I fuking luv play'n a finely toobed Marshall. What an honor and a thrill!




Now if I could just learn some chords...


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> I had bought some 7025's on EBAY and some of them came in on Friday and some on Saturday. Two different lots, four tubes each, all RCA's. Six of them were bad.
> 
> I had to contact the sellers and let them know I was either returning tube for a partial refund, or returning all of the tubes for a full refund. This is the other side of tube buying that I don't often write up. I love to tell about the RCA Mullards I won, but I don't like to talk about somebody who sold me a batch of dud tubes. Even with all my expertise, I still get taken down every once in a while.
> 
> In the past, I would eat a bad tube if the rest were good. Not any more. If there is a bad one, or several bad one's, the seller has to make a partial refund and it is up to them whether they want me to mail their worthless glass back to them.
> 
> One of these tubes scored the all-time low. A 9-6 on my tester. The sad part is that they were listed as tested and "strong." I couldn't be doing this without my tester, it has paid for itself already. I have about 12 more tubes coming in and I hope that I have better luck.
> 
> EDICRON UPDATE-I got an email from the Turkish seller who states the EL34's are "older one's." He says he has a box that one of the tubes came in and it says, "Made in England" on the box. (Now I'm thinking that is correct. The "box" was made in England.) Anyway, I have to wait and see what I stepped in with this guy. I mean he only lives in Turkey.



Hence, it would be very worthwhile to get a decent and well calibrated tube tester.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I had bought some 7025's on EBAY and some of them came in on Friday and some on Saturday. Two different lots, four tubes each, all RCA's. Six of them were bad.
> 
> I had to contact the sellers and let them know I was either returning tube for a partial refund, or returning all of the tubes for a full refund. This is the other side of tube buying that I don't often write up. I love to tell about the RCA Mullards I won, but I don't like to talk about somebody who sold me a batch of dud tubes. Even with all my expertise, I still get taken down every once in a while.
> 
> In the past, I would eat a bad tube if the rest were good. Not any more. If there is a bad one, or several bad one's, the seller has to make a partial refund and it is up to them whether they want me to mail their worthless glass back to them.
> 
> 
> 
> One of these tubes scored the all-time low. A 9-6 on my tester. The sad part is that they were listed as tested and "strong." I couldn't be doing this without my tester, it has paid for itself already. I have about 12 more tubes coming in and I hope that I have better luck.
> 
> EDICRON UPDATE-I got an email from the Turkish seller who states the EL34's are "older one's." He says he has a box that one of the tubes came in and it says, "Made in England" on the box. (Now I'm thinking that is correct. The "box" was made in England.) Anyway, I have to wait and see what I stepped in with this guy. I mean he only lives in Turkey.



Yeah I don't know how this feels man. I get nothing but good NOS from this guy that tests them and then sells them to me for a great price. No funny "made in England boxes with who knows what era El34's." I even get to demo them before I decide if I want any.

Just the good stuff from my guy.

Keep up the good "karma" and it will come back to you. Hope those EL34's turn out to be the right ones. I know things don't always turn out.

Well I gotta hit the hay. See you all later today!

Need more Boobs in the Noob thread...


----------



## superimposedmedia

OK, After examining some schematics, I've determined that I don't have a V4 tube. I took these pics so maybe you guys could help me out. I'm looking at the leftmost EL-34 and wondering if that blue glow is normal? I'm working now to pull my power tubes and test bias so I thought I'd share these pics and get some recommendations.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What is showing is V2, V3 and V4. V1 is inside the silver can. The can twists off of the chassis. The can is a shield to help keep V1 free of unwanted radio frequencies and other noise.

The power tubes are V5, V6, V7 and V8.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool pics! The EL34s look like stock Marshall Svetlanas. You can see some blue inside a lot of EL34s - it's no big deal. 

What preamp tubes are you using? They look like triple micas.


----------



## solarburn

Look like Chinese preamp tubes.


----------



## Jesstaa

Man, I wish I could get good tube pics. Every time I try and take one the light is wrong. 
I have a good camera too D=


----------



## MartyStrat54

Something else I wanted to say that many of you already know. Most schematics will show the preamp tubes as V1, V2 and V3. They do this, because V4 is actually part of the power section.

Again, this has been on this thread many times, but we have some new people. Also, I will state the following for those of you that do not know what the preamp tubes do.

V1-First gain stage.
V2-Second gain stage.
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter 

V3 runs at higher voltages and a lot of CP tubes don't last very long in that slot. I highly recommend a NOS tube like a Sylvania in V3. This will guarantee tube reliability in that slot.

V4 does not have to be perfectly matched. The tube can be mismatched and work just fine in the amp.

V1 is the most important tube for tone. It establishes "flavor." So if you pick a Telefunken, an RFT, a Black Plate or whatever, you will get most of your tone from this tube.

V2 accents V1. V2 is usually of higher gain than V1. If you have a Telefunken in V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2, the amp will still have more of the Telefunken flavor. The flavor of V2 will be there, as in this case there will be a fatter bottom and mids, but that will be attached to the tone of the Telefunken.

These are some basic concepts that I felt needed to be brought up since we have some new faces around here.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Something else I wanted to say that many of you already know. Most schematics will show the preamp tubes as V1, V2 and V3. They do this, because V4 is actually part of the power section.
> 
> Again, this has been on this thread many times, but we have some new people. Also, I will state the following for those of you that do not know what the preamp tubes do.
> 
> V1-First gain stage.
> V2-Second gain stage.
> V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
> V4-Phase Inverter
> 
> V3 runs at higher voltages and a lot of CP tubes don't last very long in that slot. I highly recommend a NOS tube like a Sylvania in V3. This will guarantee tube reliability in that slot.
> 
> V4 does not have to be perfectly matched. The tube can be mismatched and work just fine in the amp.
> 
> V1 is the most important tube for tone. It establishes "flavor." So if you pick a Telefunken, an RFT, a Black Plate or whatever, you will get most of your tone from this tube.
> 
> V2 accents V1. V2 is usually of higher gain than V1. If you have a Telefunken in V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2, the amp will still have more of the Telefunken flavor. The flavor of V2 will be there, as in this case there will be a fatter bottom and mids, but that will be attached to the tone of the Telefunken.
> 
> These are some basic concepts that I felt needed to be brought up since we have some new faces around here.



Now for the beers!

Marty, what do you think of Sovtek 7025s? I pulled one from a bass amp and chucked it in my amp just for something different (In PI position), but I still haven't had the chance to use my amp since the swap.

I also made the mistake of putting a high gain JJ 12AX7 in the bass amp as a replacement, now it distorts with my guitar =s


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa said:


> Now for the beers!
> 
> Marty, what do you think of Sovtek 7025s? I pulled one from a bass amp and chucked it in my amp just for something different (In PI position), but I still haven't had the chance to use my amp since the swap.
> 
> I also made the mistake of putting a high gain JJ 12AX7 in the bass amp as a replacement, now it distorts with my guitar =s



Well here's the deal. A 7025 was a real special tube when it came out. It was used extensively in the first gain stage of numerous tube amps, mainly for Hi Fi use. It got a really good reputation.

Flash forward 40 years and you have the Russian's and the Chinese making 7025's. They are using those famous numbers as a marketing tool. There isn't anything special about a CP 7025. In fact, many people complain that they are gritty and noisy. And to be blunt, I don't use anything made by Sovtek. Their WA and WB were the worst. I have some that are brand new, but I'll never use them. Do you want them?

A word of caution. Distortion is actually a square wave. A square wave contains positive and negative DC. This is what will fry the voice coil on a speaker. Distorted low frequencies have greater amounts of DC. I wouldn't recommend playing the bass amp with a lot of distortion or you could end up with some fried speakers.


----------



## Jesstaa

This tube doesn't actually sound so bad, bout the same as my chinese tubes with a different flavour.

And I have no money for more tubes at the moment =s


----------



## superimposedmedia

MartyStrat54 said:


> What is showing is V2, V3 and V4. V1 is inside the silver can. The can twists off of the chassis. The can is a shield to help keep V1 free of unwanted radio frequencies and other noise.
> 
> The power tubes are V5, V6, V7 and V8.



I noticed on the schematics there is a V1 but it's on the second part of the sheets. Also, the EL-34 tubes are positioned in a square config on the schematics and mine are in a straight line. I figured the schematics were for another make of this model. Super information!

RiverRatt, when I pull the tubes I'll snap a pic. These are the tubes that were sent from Marshall, preinstalled on a 2009 JCM-2000 DSL-100.

Jesstaa, This was snapped with a $130 digital camera. Nothing special. Lighting is everything. Also, I use a tripod. I love shooting 35mm but that's for another thread


----------



## Jesstaa

superimposedmedia said:


> I noticed on the schematics there is a V1 but it's on the second part of the sheets. Also, the EL-34 tubes are positioned in a square config on the schematics and mine are in a straight line. I figured the schematics were for another make of this model. Super information!
> 
> RiverRatt, when I pull the tubes I'll snap a pic. These are the tubes that were sent from Marshall, preinstalled on a 2009 JCM-2000 DSL-100.
> 
> Jesstaa, This was snapped with a $130 digital camera. Nothing special. Lighting is everything. Also, I use a tripod. I love shooting 35mm but that's for another thread



I use a $300 10mp digital camera with a bigass lens D=


----------



## RiverRatt

That's ok. Solarburn was right - they are Chinese preamp tubes. I'm using those in V3 and V4. I've got a Mullard in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. You wouldn't believe the difference in tone!!! 

Don't pay any attention to how things are laid out on a schematic. Think of it more like a flowchart than a layout. The amp looks like a typical 100 watt head.


----------



## Procter2812

what you think of Brimar Tubes... They NOS and made in england.

How do they compare up to Mullards?
Im looking for one for V1

Alex


----------



## Jae

Procter2812 said:


> what you think of Brimar Tubes... They NOS and made in england.
> 
> How do they compare up to Mullards?
> Im looking for one for V1
> 
> Alex




Brimars are good tubes. I think the hi-fi guys really like them. I got three of them, but for a high price, since the guy said that they were brand new NOS. 
I found that they don't have the high gain like the Mullards, and even less than a Sylvania. But that's just my ears. I think they are high quality tubes and may sound good for cleans. I prefer to use them in V2 or V3, never V1, cause I like the extra gain, so I slap a Mullard into V1. So the Brimars I put them mostly in V3 and hardly ever even in V2. This for some reason gives me a "clean" sound with high gain. Or to put it better, it gives me less fizz but with good gain. Here is a couple I still have left. The other on I had fell a meter and the tip of it broke off so I thre it out, it turned white like an ice-cream 






On the other side it says CV4004


----------



## MartyStrat54

Using Brimars in V3 or V4 is like putting baby poop in an ice cream cone. You just don't do it. Brimars are a "tone" tube and should be used in V1 or V2.

Also, I have many Sylvania's that are very high gain and could be used in V2. The brand of the tube does not play any role in how strong the tube will be. The stoutness is a product of the age of the tube, how well it was built, how hard the vacuum is and the amount of prior use. 

All 12AX7's and ECC83's were built with a target gain of 100. Some tubes fall below that target and some are above it. The only way to know where the gain is at is with a mutual conductance tube tester.


----------



## Jesstaa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Using Brimars in V3 or V4 is like putting baby poop in an ice cream cone. You just don't do it.


Interesting.


----------



## Procter2812

Ahh sweet.. good info there thanks guys!

Brimar ECC83 Valve on eBay (end time 30-Sep-09 11:27:58 BST)

what you reckon Marty?

Im bidding on this valve... sticking it in V1 and another Mullard in V2

getting rid of that 7025 Harma... its basically a paper weight!


Alex


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Ahh sweet.. good info there thanks guys!
> 
> Brimar ECC83 Valve on eBay (end time 30-Sep-09 11:27:58 BST)
> 
> what you reckon Marty?
> 
> Im bidding on this valve... sticking it in V1 and another Mullard in V2
> 
> getting rid of that 7025 Harma... its basically a paper weight!
> 
> 
> Alex



I take it you didn't like the Harma 7025...hehe. How did it sound to you?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I take it you didn't like the Harma 7025...hehe. How did it sound to you?



I'm thinking it sounded like what I posted ^^^above^^^. You know, gritty and noisy. When I think of a 7025, I think of RCA and a few other American tube companies. I don't think Harma or anything made in Russia or China. That's not and never will be a 7025.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Ahh sweet.. good info there thanks guys!
> 
> Brimar ECC83 Valve on eBay (end time 30-Sep-09 11:27:58 BST)
> 
> what you reckon Marty?
> 
> Im bidding on this valve... sticking it in V1 and another Mullard in V2
> 
> getting rid of that 7025 Harma... its basically a paper weight!
> 
> 
> Alex



I hope you win it. That would be a killer V1 and V2. I hope you don't have to pay too much for it. Good Luck!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm thinking it sounded like what I posted ^^^above^^^. You know, gritty and noisy. When I think of a 7025, I think of RCA and a few other American tube companies. I don't think Harma or anything made in Russia or China. That's not and never will be a 7025.



Abrasive then. I was waiting to hear about the Harma for curiosity sakes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

God there are some beautiful pictures of tubes on this thread. That's why I miss JOSH so much. That guy could take some really nice pictures of toobs.

All my rowdy friends have settled down. (Shit, ain't that the truth.)

Whadda ya say JOE? Wanna get rowdy?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> God there are some beautiful pictures of tubes on this thread. That's why I miss JOSH so much. That guy could take some really nice pictures of toobs.
> 
> All my rowdy friends have settled down. (Shit, ain't that the truth.)
> 
> Whadda ya say JOE? Wanna get rowdy?



I'm gett'n rowdy over how much those Brimar's cost at a dealers. Most are a $100 a tube!

Now you know why I only got the Brimar AT7 at $25 hehe.

Oh yeah...I'm gett'n rowdy now!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Abrasive then. I was waiting to hear about the Harma for curiosity sakes.



Let me ask you JOE, since you have more Chinese experience. Is there any of the Chinese tubes that are worth a shit? I mean in reality, the only difference on a Chinese tube is the tube wholesaler that buys them. Some just buy them and stick their brand on the tube. Others do more extensive testing. Some get frozen. Good grief, is there any plain old Chinese tube that I could use that would make me happy? Is there any Chinese tube that holds up in V3? Or one that works in the PI? Are the Chinese 12AX7's better than the Sovteks?

Tell me, oh wise man, what is the answer?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me ask you JOE, since you have more Chinese experience. Is there any of the Chinese tubes that are worth a shit? I mean in reality, the only difference on a Chinese tube is the tube wholesaler that buys them. Some just buy them and stick their brand on the tube. Others do more extensive testing. Some get frozen. Good grief, is there any plain old Chinese tube that I could use that would make me happy? Is there any Chinese tube that holds up in V3? Or one that works in the PI? Are the Chinese 12AX7's better than the Sovteks?
> 
> Tell me, oh wise man, what is the answer?



I like them better than Sovtecs which are just too sterile for me. I think where the Chinese tubes come in use is for the high gain guys who enjoy their bite and gain. I've read alot of guys using them in high gain amps like Cobras, Diezel's and Mesas and Marshall... anywhere high gain is the goal. Don't need dynamics and feel when you're play'n death metal or need as much gain as possible. They get a little hairy but like I said some guys desire that.

These are suppose to be quieter but I haven't tried them yet. My AC5's were prior to these:

Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+

Just arrived from Ruby. Low noise, low microphonics. Most suitable for V1 and other intial gain stages.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, my Marshall-branded Chinese tubes seem to work really well in V3 and V4. I've got a bunch of CP tubes and a handful of old ones that I've tried in those spots, and none sound any better than the Chinese tubes. They don't seem to run as hot as other CP tubes in those spots, either.

I've been looking at this auction today. Can someone tell me why these tubes are only $60? Is there a problem with them? If the seller is right, they test higher than new. I didn't know that any Telefunken tubes had a pinched top like a Mullard. 

TELEFUNKEN ECC83 / 12AX7 SMOOTH PLATE VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 130332640649 end time Sep-28-09 19:37:33 PDT)


----------



## ken361

I read that the cathode follower tube has a higher voltage tube, that right? On the jvm its the v8 tube. Marty said to use a nos in place because these last longer. I tried a differant tube in that spot and it didn't sound as good.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Like I said, my Marshall-branded Chinese tubes seem to work really well in V3 and V4. I've got a bunch of CP tubes and a handful of old ones that I've tried in those spots, and none sound any better than the Chinese tubes. They don't seem to run as hot as other CP tubes in those spots, either.
> 
> I've been looking at this auction today. Can someone tell me why these tubes are only $60? Is there a problem with them? If the seller is right, they test higher than new. I didn't know that any Telefunken tubes had a pinched top like a Mullard.
> 
> TELEFUNKEN ECC83 / 12AX7 SMOOTH PLATE VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 130332640649 end time Sep-28-09 19:37:33 PDT)



I bought tele's for 30 each diamond bottom, there pretty good, not great though.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was just wondering. There are diamond-bottom Teles all over eBay for way more than $60 for a single tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did a lot of looking and did not find one picture in my tube library of a pinched top Telefunken. However, the guy says it has a diamond bottom and it is a 1965 model. There was so much going on in 1965 in the tube business. I just bought four smooth Tele's for $120. I think $30 each is a good price for a Tele.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> Using Brimars in V3 or V4 is like putting baby poop in an ice cream cone. You just don't do it. Brimars are a "tone" tube and should be used in V1 or V2.
> 
> Also, I have many Sylvania's that are very high gain and could be used in V2. The brand of the tube does not play any role in how strong the tube will be. The stoutness is a product of the age of the tube, how well it was built, how hard the vacuum is and the amount of prior use.
> 
> All 12AX7's and ECC83's were built with a target gain of 100. Some tubes fall below that target and some are above it. The only way to know where the gain is at is with a mutual conductance tube tester.



target gain of 100 yes. But one thing is for sure, different makes, different tone. At least to me I prefer to put the Brimars anywhere except the V1 and V2. The reason? I don't know, but to my ears it sounds better to put it into the V3 slot. I like to put the Mullards in the V1 and maybe a Tele in V2, but that is just my taste for now. People have different preferences in tone, don't they? Not sure what you mean when you say you just don't do that. I'm sure there are no hard fast rules.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> target gain of 100 yes. But one thing is for sure, different makes, different tone. At least to me I prefer to put the Brimars anywhere except the V1 and V2. The reason? I don't know, but to my ears it sounds better to put it into the V3 slot. I like to put the Mullards in the V1 and maybe a Tele in V2, but that is just my taste for now. People have different preferences in tone, don't they? Not sure what you mean when you say you just don't do that. I'm sure there are no hard fast rules.



Marty is saying that with Brimars you would want the tubes tone/character to come out in full which would be in V1 first and then in V2 as well. The other positions would be wasting the tone these tubes are known for.

You can put them anywhere you like but his point still stands as far as enjoying the full character of a Brimar in the right slot. Enjoy them where you like.


----------



## Jae

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty is saying that with Brimars you would want the tubes tone/character to come out in full which would be in V1 first and then in V2 as well. The other positions would be wasting the tone these tubes are known for.
> 
> You can put them anywhere you like but his point still stands as far as enjoying the full character of a Brimar in the right slot. Enjoy them where you like.



I see. Anyhow, different people different tastes. I prefer them in V3 either way. What would be the point in putting them in V1 if I didn't like the tone of it. Maybe Brimars aren't my favorite in terms of tone, but they can add to the tone of the Mullards which I really like. That's all, but I see Marty's point either way.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> I see. Anyhow, different people different tastes. I prefer them in V3 either way. What would be the point in putting them in V1 if I didn't like the tone of it. Maybe Brimars aren't my favorite in terms of tone, but they can add to the tone of the Mullards which I really like. That's all, but I see Marty's point either way.



Marty still laughs at me when I use AT7's in my DSL especially when I plop it in V1 hehe.


----------



## Procter2812

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I take it you didn't like the Harma 7025...hehe. How did it sound to you?



Il be perfectly honest... Marty was 100% right... gritty tone and a noisy tube not microphonic just background noise

It is alright in V2 still a nice tone from the mullard but not smooth as i get most of my overdrive from my pedal anyway (tube screamer)

Hope i get this brimar... then hopefully a mullard white label ( as good as possible for V3)

Harma tubes are just relabelled chinese tubes which watford valves cream themselves over.

alex


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Il be perfectly honest... Marty was 100% right... gritty tone and a noisy tube not microphonic just background noise
> 
> It is alright in V2 still a nice tone from the mullard but not smooth as i get most of my overdrive from my pedal anyway (tube screamer)
> 
> Hope i get this brimar... then hopefully a mullard white label ( as good as possible for V3)
> 
> Harma tubes are just relabelled chinese tubes which watford valves cream themselves over.
> 
> alex



Gotcha. Yeah I hope you get the Brimar too. The Mullards in a Marshall just go so well together. Hope it works out.


----------



## ken361

ok you tube whores you see these yet? I talked to a guy on a diff. forum and loves them. yeah there like 120 to 140 and should last a life time, every tube sounds the same as of current production tubes differ from tube to tube. 
ToneGrinder "Tubes for the 21st Century"


----------



## ken361

so is the cathode follower tube a higher voltage tube? all amps have these?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> so is the cathode follower tube a higher voltage tube? all amps have these?



In a DSL/TSL, or other four tube preamp Marshall, V3 runs at a much higher voltage and therefore, many CP tubes either fail outright, or do not last very long in this position. The cheapest cure is a low cost NOS tube like a Sylvania. 

In my four tube sets, I always include two Sylvania's for V3 and V4. The effect on the tone of the amp by these two positions is minimal. We have put high gain tubes in V3 and V4 and the effect was minimal. If anything, you will notice a little change in the V3 tube. V4 is the Phase Inverter and it is not a tone generating circuit. I will say a nasty tube in V4 can degrade the "signal" and then this could affect the tone somewhat. However, almost any tube will work in V4 and do the job.


----------



## ken361

Thanks for the replay! I have the 205h JVM, says the cathode is in the v8, (same as v3) so does that apply to what your saying? I do have a sylvania around when I need it. I have 5 preamp tubes including the phase intertor


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> I see. Anyhow, different people different tastes. I prefer them in V3 either way. What would be the point in putting them in V1 if I didn't like the tone of it. Maybe Brimars aren't my favorite in terms of tone, but they can add to the tone of the Mullards which I really like. That's all, but I see Marty's point either way.



My main point that I have stated numerous times on this thread is:

"Go with what sounds good to you." I make suggestions. My suggestions might not work for the tone you are trying to accomplish. However, I wonder how your amp would sound with Sylvania's in V3 and V4? I would love to find out if you could tell the difference between a $25 to $30 NOS tube in those slots compared to the expensive Brimars?

And I do want to make a comment about Sylvania's. There are a lot of folks out there that have four Sylvania's in their amps and they are just pleased as hell over the sound. Sylvania tubes are some of the best American NOS tubes. They are cheaper, because Sylvania made tubes longer than anyone else. They were bought out by Philips in "1984." Philips then came out with the ECG brand that was basically a Sylvania and production ceased in 1988. Wow! RCA tubes were dead back in the 70's and most of them were being made in Japan. The other smaller tube companies folded before that.

I only use Sylvania in V3 and V4 of my amps because they are the most economical. If I had to run a medium gain Sylvania in V1 and a high gain Sylvania in V2, I would not have a problem with it. The tone is very similar to an <RCA Gray Plate>. The point is, I am not going to stick an Amperex in V3 and a Mullard in V4. Number One: There is a very small "might" that I would hear any difference. Number Two: It has already been proven that lesser grade CP tubes can run these slots. Of course only certain tubes being able to handle V3, but there are the <Mullard RI Long Plates> that seem to be able to handle the demands of V3.

So rather than use CP in V3 and V4, I run the Sylvania's. They are reliable and they won't hurt the tone of V1 and V2.

I just sold another four pack and it was the tried and true 7025 in V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. V3 and V4 were Sylvania's. The guy was just super happy. If I remember, he said he would post his comments.

Now another four pack was a slightly hotter Amperex in V1 matched to a Raytheon Black Plate and two Sylvania's. I'm finding that the high gain BP in V2 thickens the mids of V1. Now if you were to reverse these two tube, the BP would be dominant in V1 and it would produce the typical fat round bottom and thicker mids. However, the Amperex is more of a sweet, well-rounded tube. Pairing it with the BP makes it a little more aggressive in the mids, which is what the customer wanted. He wasn't that concerned over the clean channel. He wanted more squeal and harmonics. To do that, V1 has to be hotter.

In closing, your tubes are your property and you can use them however you see fit. I'm just "suggesting" that you use different tubes in V3 and/or V4 and save the Brimars. I would suggest a little tube rolling in the V3 and V4 positions. If after rolling, you still feel the Brimars are the best, then I say fine, use them. You won't get an argument out of me over it.


----------



## Procter2812

Were any Brimars made by Mullard.

They seen to have a similar construction to a mullard. hmm


----------



## ken361

I have one of these
JHS-Sylvania 12AX7 - Single Tubes Rare MINT NOS NIB 1950s Long Black Plate Square Getter USA - CV452 Label
http://www.tubemonger.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=660


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Were any Brimars made by Mullard.
> 
> They seen to have a similar construction to a mullard. hmm



Mullard was so much larger than Brimar, that there is a possibility that towards the end of major tube production, Mullard could have made tubes for Brimar. I have never looked into this personally. If I do find out anything I will post it later.

The four RCA's that I bought that are Mullard's were four of the best testing tubes I have bought in a while. All of them were V2's. 29-31, 30-32, 30-33 and 28-29. A four pack of hot sardines.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> I have one of these
> JHS-Sylvania 12AX7 - Single Tubes Rare MINT NOS NIB 1950s Long Black Plate Square Getter USA - CV452 Label
> JHS-Sylvania 12AX7 - Single Tubes Rare MINT NOS NIB 1950s Long Black Plate Square Getter USA - CV452 Label.



Gee! Again I will say I sell toobs cheap compared to these online guys. Who says a Sylvania can't be a high priced "A" tube. If a tube is going for $60, it is an "A" tube no matter what the brand. (Of course, these are the same people that want $100 for one smooth plate Telefunken.)

That's a sweet tube you have BTW.


----------



## ken361

I really like real used mullard blackburn how much? there rfts are reasonable


----------



## ken361

marty a tube dealer?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> marty a tube dealer?



There's a rumor going around about this and I can say with all honesty that it's true. PM me if you need something.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> I really like real used mullard blackburn how much? there rfts are reasonable



I bought a real used Mullard this past week. It's an amazing sounding tube. It didn't even test all that high, but it sounds great. I'm using it in V1 and one of Marty's Raytheon black plates in V2 and I think it's the best combination I've tried so far. The neighbors are really going to be in for a treat when I get my RFT EL34's back in action this week.


----------



## ken361

you guys like rft's pre amps? haha congrats! the neighbors lol hear ya on that one! have to play loud to enjoy those tubes pumping.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I bought a real used Mullard this past week. It's an amazing sounding tube. It didn't even test all that high, but it sounds great. I'm using it in V1 and one of Marty's Raytheon black plates in V2 and I think it's the best combination I've tried so far. The neighbors are really going to be in for a treat when I get my RFT EL34's back in action this week.



I know...my Mullard sits well in V1 or V2 paired with either the BP, JP, 7025 or RFT. Moving these 5 around in just those 2 slots have been very good and sometimes hard to pick a favorite. One thing I like about each of these 4(Mullard,JP,BP&RFT)tubes are the sweet mids and each has its own character doing it. Hard to choose what I like best. 

I find when I'm roll'n I'll take a break and then get back to it and I swear my ears change in what they like. It can be frustrating narrowing it down when the good ones are so toneful hehe. So I just settle for having about 3 combinations I really dig at any given time.


----------



## RiverRatt

Solarburn is the RFT preamp tube man. I have a couple of RFT 7025A pre's which are probably the same as their 12AX7/ECC83. They are OK. I wouldn't kick 'em out of bed, but I've got better sounding tubes.

Sorry Joe - you beat me to the post. You know the RFT preamp tubes better than I do. I hear where you're coming from, though. I'm getting a supply of good sounding tubes built up and sometimes I think my favorites are the ones I have in at the time. What I need is another amp or two so I can have them all going at once.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up one of those little 5 watt Crate tube amps when GC was practically giving them away. I finally got around to ordering a Celestion Vintage 10 for it, which really transforms the amp into a tone monster. I think I'm going to use my Sylvania 6BQ5 for the power tube. I'm thinking I may use one of the RFT 7025A's in it. It's a pretty well-rounded tube - not too gainy but not weak, either. It's hard to swap tubes out in those amps. You pretty much have to take the chassis out.

What's the official tube guru consensus in an amp with a single preamp tube?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I picked up one of those little 5 watt Crate tube amps when GC was practically giving them away. I finally got around to ordering a Celestion Vintage 10 for it, which really transforms the amp into a tone monster. I think I'm going to use my Sylvania 6BQ5 for the power tube. I'm thinking I may use one of the RFT 7025A's in it. It's a pretty well-rounded tube - not too gainy but not weak, either. It's hard to swap tubes out in those amps. You pretty much have to take the chassis out.
> 
> What's the official tube guru consensus in an amp with a single preamp tube?



I would say a well balanced one to start off with. You know one that has a nice balance of lows, mids and highs that aren't harsh. Do these have an EQ or just volume knob?


----------



## RiverRatt

It has a contour control. It's kinda like a mid-shift, with the center position being flat. Check this clip out. This is where I got the idea for the Celestion Vintage 10. Save yourself some time and skip to 3:20. B is the one with the Celestion.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na0mrc1QZoY]YouTube - TTK Presents : Crate V5 - MOD[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It has a contour control. It's kinda like a mid-shift, with the center position being flat. Check this clip out. This is where I got the idea for the Celestion Vintage 10. Save yourself some time and skip to 3:20. B is the one with the Celestion.
> 
> YouTube - TTK Presents : Crate V5 - MOD



B sounds so much better. Amp A was scooped. I prefer a warmer, fatter tone with highs that are smooth. That speaker swap helped alot. I'd put my JP in first, then the Mullard, BP and then my RFT. I'd try these and then see what I like best. A tube with thick warm mids will sound great with that I think.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> B sounds so much better. Amp A was scooped.



That's pretty much the way it sounds live, too. Crate must have used the absolute cheapest speaker they could find. Amp B has no mods other than the Celestion. What's a JP? JAN Phillips?


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you only have one preamp tube, it is your everything. It is your gain and it is your tone. I wonder if they control how the tube is used, or if it just runs through Triode A and then through Triode B? I'm sure that's how they do it. So in theory you would have a gain of 200 pushing the 6BQ5. That should be a screamer. 

I would try the Black Plate in it and see how that sounds with the speaker mod.

Another sweet, stand alone tube is an Amperex. It is a little sweeter than the Mullard, especially the short, gray plates. I have Amperex's that test 18-18 and they still wail in an amp.

Yeah, it would be hard to pick just one. Try what you have and go with the one that puts the biggest grin on your face.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's pretty much the way it sounds live, too. Crate must have used the absolute cheapest speaker they could find. Amp B has no mods other than the Celestion. What's a JP? JAN Phillips?



JP is a JAN Philips 12AX7WA. One of my favorites. Yeah the original speaker IMO would hurt sales I'd think. Whoever picked it over other options needs to be replaced for someone that likes good tone... Consumers burned by budget constraints again.

I guess sometimes I don't know how bad something is until I get something better in it. Something to compare it too. I've found this to be true with my gear.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't complain. Not counting the tubes, I'll only have about $150 in the amp. If I sell it, I can always put all the Chinese crap back in.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I can't complain. Not counting the tubes, I'll only have about $150 in the amp. If I sell it, I can always put all the Chinese crap back in.



Glad you improved it. Now enjoy it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Note Alan that Joe spells it all out...JAN Philips 12AX7WA. I have about nine Sovtek 12AX7WA's that I don't want. I've already given some away. How come my WA's don't sound like your WA? Yeah, them JP's are really nice tubes.

And what Joe was saying about not knowing how something sounds until you try something better. That sums it up with the Wolverine speakers that came in the 602's. Man, I didn't like them. They are 80 watt speakers and when you mate them to a bright TSL, it's terrible. They might sound good with a different amp. I have four of them sitting in storage. I learned my lesson about selling Celestions on EBAY. Don't do it, you will loose your ass. So with that in mind I will just sit on them while I still have an ass to do so. 

Yeah we talk about preamp tubes and the impact they have on tone. Different speakers can have a similar impact. My 602 with the JBL D123's has a high gain Black Plate in V2 (7025 in V1). It is my "ballsy" amp. I've never played a open back combo with that much low end. I think a 4 by 12 cab with four of these D123's would be solid gold. Not only do they have thick cutting mids, but the speaker goes up to 12KHz. This allows harmonics above 5KHz to cut through.

I recently bought four Eminence Delta Pro 12A's. These are incredible speakers. They are actually a mid-driver for a PA system. They have a frequency response of 45 to 4.7KHz. They are very flat and neutral, so the actual sound of the amp comes out without any coloration from the speakers. I tried them in one of my custom cabs and they sounded awesome.

So the thing is, while you are rolling tubes, try rolling speakers. I have a bunch so I've done it a lot. If you even need advice on speakers, just ask me. I was a service manager for a large Pro Audio shop in Phoenix. I think I know a thing or two about speakers.


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> My main point that I have stated numerous times on this thread is:
> 
> "Go with what sounds good to you." I make suggestions. My suggestions might not work for the tone you are trying to accomplish. However, I wonder how your amp would sound with Sylvania's in V3 and V4? I would love to find out if you could tell the difference between a $25 to $30 NOS tube in those slots compared to the expensive Brimars?
> 
> And I do want to make a comment about Sylvania's. There are a lot of folks out there that have four Sylvania's in their amps and they are just pleased as hell over the sound. Sylvania tubes are some of the best American NOS tubes. They are cheaper, because Sylvania made tubes longer than anyone else. They were bought out by Philips in "1984." Philips then came out with the ECG brand that was basically a Sylvania and production ceased in 1988. Wow! RCA tubes were dead back in the 70's and most of them were being made in Japan. The other smaller tube companies folded before that.
> 
> I only use Sylvania in V3 and V4 of my amps because they are the most economical. If I had to run a medium gain Sylvania in V1 and a high gain Sylvania in V2, I would not have a problem with it. The tone is very similar to an <RCA Gray Plate>. The point is, I am not going to stick an Amperex in V3 and a Mullard in V4. Number One: There is a very small "might" that I would hear any difference. Number Two: It has already been proven that lesser grade CP tubes can run these slots. Of course only certain tubes being able to handle V3, but there are the <Mullard RI Long Plates> that seem to be able to handle the demands of V3.
> 
> So rather than use CP in V3 and V4, I run the Sylvania's. They are reliable and they won't hurt the tone of V1 and V2.
> 
> I just sold another four pack and it was the tried and true 7025 in V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. V3 and V4 were Sylvania's. The guy was just super happy. If I remember, he said he would post his comments.
> 
> Now another four pack was a slightly hotter Amperex in V1 matched to a Raytheon Black Plate and two Sylvania's. I'm finding that the high gain BP in V2 thickens the mids of V1. Now if you were to reverse these two tube, the BP would be dominant in V1 and it would produce the typical fat round bottom and thicker mids. However, the Amperex is more of a sweet, well-rounded tube. Pairing it with the BP makes it a little more aggressive in the mids, which is what the customer wanted. He wasn't that concerned over the clean channel. He wanted more squeal and harmonics. To do that, V1 has to be hotter.
> 
> In closing, your tubes are your property and you can use them however you see fit. I'm just "suggesting" that you use different tubes in V3 and/or V4 and save the Brimars. I would suggest a little tube rolling in the V3 and V4 positions. If after rolling, you still feel the Brimars are the best, then I say fine, use them. You won't get an argument out of me over it.




Thanks Marty. 
I have to say though I really like the Sylvanias. I think they are overlooked. But some people can actually see that they are good. I also heard someone say that sticking a Tesla in V3 adds alot more volume and sounds waaay better than a Sylvania, that a Sylvania will just lower the overall output and sound fizzy. However, i disagree to some point. I really like the Sylvanias in any slot. If they sound bad, then they are probably not good tubes to begin with. 

I've been using alot of Sylvanias lately and they are alot cheaper. I don't think they sound like a Mullard, but they have thier own character. I noticed that putting some NOS Sylvanias in the V2 gives you some very "clean" sounds, what I mean is less fizziness (to my ears). I like the Sylvanias alot. I can get very precise picking sounds with those. 

BTW, I have been hearing that the Teslas sound very good and give out alot of volume boost to get more "ooomph". What do you guys think of them? I tried it some time ago in the V3 slot and it was alright with more volume boost.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Note Alan that Joe spells it all out...JAN Philips 12AX7WA. I have about nine Sovtek 12AX7WA's that I don't want. I've already given some away. How come my WA's don't sound like your WA? Yeah, them JP's are really nice tubes.
> 
> And what Joe was saying about not knowing how something sounds until you try something better. That sums it up with the Wolverine speakers that came in the 602's. Man, I didn't like them. They are 80 watt speakers and when you mate them to a bright TSL, it's terrible. They might sound good with a different amp. I have four of them sitting in storage. I learned my lesson about selling Celestions on EBAY. Don't do it, you will loose your ass. So with that in mind I will just sit on them while I still have an ass to do so.
> 
> Yeah we talk about preamp tubes and the impact they have on tone. Different speakers can have a similar impact. My 602 with the JBL D123's has a high gain Black Plate in V2 (7025 in V1). It is my "ballsy" amp. I've never played a open back combo with that much low end. I think a 4 by 12 cab with four of these D123's would be solid gold. Not only do they have thick cutting mids, but the speaker goes up to 12KHz. This allows harmonics above 5KHz to cut through.
> 
> I recently bought four Eminence Delta Pro 12A's. These are incredible speakers. They are actually a mid-driver for a PA system. They have a frequency response of 45 to 4.7KHz. They are very flat and neutral, so the actual sound of the amp comes out without any coloration from the speakers. I tried them in one of my custom cabs and they sounded awesome.
> 
> So the thing is, while you are rolling tubes, try rolling speakers. I have a bunch so I've done it a lot. If you even need advice on speakers, just ask me. I was a service manager for a large Pro Audio shop in Phoenix. I think I know a thing or two about speakers.



These sound like I'd luv em'. Are these still produced or do you have to find them used?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The D123 came out in the 50's and ran until the late 60's. It can only be obtained used. I lucked out and ended up with nine of them. Four of them were like NOS, they had been installed in church PA cabinets, but never used. When I got them, I cried, they were so beautiful. I got the four for around $500. I then bought the rest off of EBAY. I have recone kits left, so if I find an auction for just the frame, I jump all over it. I have six recone kits left.

You have to look at JBL and Altec speakers for some incredible sound. Some people (engineers) that worked for JBL claim the D123 is the best 12-inch speaker for guitar. I have to agree with them. Another speaker used in the big Fenders were the JBL D120. This speaker would not break up on its own. It would take pedals very well including OD. It had a very controlled sound to it. If you hit it with a high output distortion pedal, it was very smooth. It was not the speaker to use if you were looking for cone breakup at higher volume levels. 

The D series speakers were the 110, 120, 130 and 140. The 140 was a bass speaker. Later, JBL came out with the K series. These were still very good. Finally they came out with the E series. The E series used a huge, heavy ceramic magnet instead of an alnico. The speakers sound fantastic, but they weigh a lot. A 4 by 12 with E120's would be a nut buster.

The E series was done with in the mid 90's and I am not to happy with the product that JBL has put out since. Like many companies, it has been chopped up and sold and what is left is not that spiffy. So if you are looking for JBL's, look for the D or K series. Just so you know SRV used JBL D130's with a couple of Fender Vibrolux amps for his stage sound.

When it comes to Altec, the 417 is the hot 12-inch speaker. I have two of them in the other 602. The 417 is the speaker that Carlos Santana used in his early Mesa Boogies. The 417 has an alnico magnet and it has a higher power rating over the JBL D123. It is sort of a cross between the D123 and the D120. It will at some point give you cone distortion, but you can OD the crap out of it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I can't complain. Not counting the tubes, I'll only have about $150 in the amp. If I sell it, I can always put all the Chinese crap back in.



Here's some TEN's for sale on EBAY.

2 CELESTION 10" Guitar amp cabinet Speaker G10-30 AVT - eBay (item 350258633652 end time Oct-01-09 17:41:57 PDT)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The D123 came out in the 50's and ran until the late 60's. It can only be obtained used. I lucked out and ended up with nine of them. Four of them were like NOS, they had been installed in church PA cabinets, but never used. When I got them, I cried, they were so beautiful. I got the four for around $500. I then bought the rest off of EBAY. I have recone kits left, so if I find an auction for just the frame, I jump all over it. I have six recone kits left.
> 
> You have to look at JBL and Altec speakers for some incredible sound. Some people (engineers) that worked for JBL claim the D123 is the best 12-inch speaker for guitar. I have to agree with them. Another speaker used in the big Fenders were the JBL D120. This speaker would not break up on its own. It would take pedals very well including OD. It had a very controlled sound to it. If you hit it with a high output distortion pedal, it was very smooth. It was not the speaker to use if you were looking for cone breakup at higher volume levels.
> 
> The D series speakers were the 110, 120, 130 and 140. The 140 was a bass speaker. Later, JBL came out with the K series. These were still very good. Finally they came out with the E series. The E series used a huge, heavy ceramic magnet instead of an alnico. The speakers sound fantastic, but they weigh a lot. A 4 by 12 with E120's would be a nut buster.
> 
> The E series was done with in the mid 90's and I am not to happy with the product that JBL has put out since. Like many companies, it has been chopped up and sold and what is left is not that spiffy. So if you are looking for JBL's, look for the D or K series. Just so you know SRV used JBL D130's with a couple of Fender Vibrolux amps for his stage sound.
> 
> When it comes to Altec, the 417 is the hot 12-inch speaker. I have two of them in the other 602. The 417 is the speaker that Carlos Santana used in his early Mesa Boogies. The 417 has an alnico magnet and it has a higher power rating over the JBL D123. It is sort of a cross between the D123 and the D120. It will at some point give you cone distortion, but you can OD the crap out of it.



Thanks for this info man. So you are pretty pleased with Altec 417 then? I'll take all this in and see what's out there. Damn shame they quit making it. Just leaves me with a big "why" on some of these late great items.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know we are off topic here and everyone will just have to excuse us.

Yes, the 417 is a slam dunk speaker. Works great with any style from blues to heavy metal. They don't build them like this anymore. Flat wire, not round wire for the voice coils. This allowed for no air space in between the windings. Then the voice coil gap was made just large enough for this precise voice coil to fit in. The result? An extremely sensitive, high output speaker. Most of the old JBL and Altec's had either 3 or 4-inch voice coils. The finishing touch was a cast aluminum frame with powder coat paint job. They looked like wheels off of a sports car.

I will tell you Joe that I have five 4 by 12 cabs that are all loaded with vintage speakers. The one that blows my mind is loaded with 4, 4 OHM alnico "Bell" speakers. They called them "Bells," because there was a metal cup that went over the magnet and screwed into the back of the magnet. They speakers can be from the 40's up to the early 60's. Anyway, this cabinet I have the four speakers wired in series for a 16 ohm load. If I was a rhythm guitar player, this would be the cab I would use. I've never heard a 4 x 12 like it. It is tight and the chords just shoot off of the guitar. It's like a Black Plate, nice tight round bottom and smokey mids. These particular speakers start rolling off before 4KHz, so that's why it has the distinct sound that it has. Again, perfect for rhythm guitar.

*Just hit the big 1800. Looking forward to the 2G.*


----------



## RiverRatt

I've thought about swapping out a couple of the G12T-75's in my 1960. I like the tone I'm getting, but I'd like a little more low-mid "bark", if that makes sense. I've always wanted to get that tone that Billy Gibbons gets on the intro to Tush out of a cabinet. I know that a recorded tone is hard to get out of a cabinet that's not mic'ed, but the G12H30 sound clips on the Celestion site sound pretty close to what I'm looking for. I've thought about trying the Hellatone 30's, but it's an expensive experiment and I'm not sure that I'll be happy with the results. I also don't see how they can sell a Celestion Heritage 30 that they've aged for less than a stock G12H30. Based on the tone I'm describing, what speaker would get me closest to that?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I know we are off topic here and everyone will just have to excuse us.
> 
> Yes, the 417 is a slam dunk speaker. Works great with any style from blues to heavy metal. They don't build them like this anymore. Flat wire, not round wire for the voice coils. This allowed for no air space in between the windings. Then the voice coil gap was made just large enough for this precise voice coil to fit in. The result? An extremely sensitive, high output speaker. Most of the old JBL and Altec's had either 3 or 4-inch voice coils. The finishing touch was a cast aluminum frame with powder coat paint job. They looked like wheels off of a sports car.
> 
> I will tell you Joe that I have five 4 by 12 cabs that are all loaded with vintage speakers. The one that blows my mind is loaded with 4, 4 OHM alnico "Bell" speakers. They called them "Bells," because there was a metal cup that went over the magnet and screwed into the back of the magnet. They speakers can be from the 40's up to the early 60's. Anyway, this cabinet I have the four speakers wired in series for a 16 ohm load. If I was a rhythm guitar player, this would be the cab I would use. I've never heard a 4 x 12 like it. It is tight and the chords just shoot off of the guitar. It's like a Black Plate, nice tight round bottom and smokey mids. These particular speakers start rolling off before 4KHz, so that's why it has the distinct sound that it has. Again, perfect for rhythm guitar.
> 
> *Just hit the big 1800. Looking forward to the 2G.*



Yeah guyz sorry for the momentary OT with speakers. I really dig smokey mids. That 412 sounds like its badass! I didn't realize you had all these nice speakers. Its just a real downer they don't make them any more. At least you get to enjoy them man hehe. Nice grabs!


----------



## solarburn

Crack open a cold one cause its 1K time brohans!!!!!!!!!

Pop! Glug glug glug glug glug slurp!

Belch!


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have a cold one handy... will a nice glass of Shiraz serve the purpose? If not, I think I have some decent bourbon around. I'm trying to avoid the bourbon as there's a Mullard ECC83 on eBay ending in a couple of hours that I'm hoping to snipe. I'm afraid of what I'll wake up to in the morning if I get a little too loose.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah, fuck it. Cheers!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ah, fuck it. Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've thought about swapping out a couple of the G12T-75's in my 1960. I like the tone I'm getting, but I'd like a little more low-mid "bark", if that makes sense. I've always wanted to get that tone that Billy Gibbons gets on the intro to Tush out of a cabinet. I know that a recorded tone is hard to get out of a cabinet that's not mic'ed, but the G12H30 sound clips on the Celestion site sound pretty close to what I'm looking for. I've thought about trying the Hellatone 30's, but it's an expensive experiment and I'm not sure that I'll be happy with the results. I also don't see how they can sell a Celestion Heritage 30 that they've aged for less than a stock G12H30. Based on the tone I'm describing, what speaker would get me closest to that?



Well, Billy has been using these pickups in almost all of his guitars for live shows. They are very fat sounding.

TV Jones Guitars and Pickups

Also, being that I am a very long time fan of ZZ Top, I had the original "First Album" in several formats including eight-track. That was a very raw album. Billy used a Metal faced Marshall, but also a Fender Brown Tweed. He used his 58 and 59 Les Paul's on the first three albums. After that, he used three JMP 100 watt amps and who knows what he used in the studio. I mean right now he has basically sold out and is using Crate amps.

The Marshall speaker that he has used for quite a while and is still using with the Crate's is the G12K-100. From what I heard, this is a pretty good sounding high watt Celestion. It's supposed to have some good bottom end to it. They are priced fairly reasonable at $125 a piece. 

Billy Gibbons is sort of a BS'r and you can't ever take what he says a gospel. He doesn't want other people to know exactly what he played on a certain song or album. I've read on other forums where people were acting like they knew exactly what he played on any give song. It's all BS. No one knows that and I doubt if Billy can remember what all he played on certain songs.

The best thing you can do is attempt to get his sound. Remember, he sometimes uses a quarter or a peso as a guitar pick. Yeah Josh was wanting to obtain the Def Leppard sound and that's pretty hard, but ZZ Top? They had a different mojo going on. Every song could be a different amp, different cab, different pickups, etc., etc. 

I know it's pricey doing speaker swaps. You sort of want to hit it dead on with your first purchase. I say try and find as many sound clips as you can and maybe that will help. One thing is for sure, you'll need a Les Paul.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, Billy has been using these pickups in almost all of his guitars for live shows. They are very fat sounding.
> 
> TV Jones Guitars and Pickups
> 
> Also, being that I am a very long time fan of ZZ Top, I had the original "First Album" in several formats including eight-track. That was a very raw album. Billy used a Metal faced Marshall, but also a Fender Brown Tweed. He used his 58 and 59 Les Paul's on the first three albums. After that, he used three JMP 100 watt amps and who knows what he used in the studio. I mean right now he has basically sold out and is using Crate amps.
> 
> The Marshall speaker that he has used for quite a while and is still using with the Crate's is the G12K-100. From what I heard, this is a pretty good sounding high watt Celestion. It's supposed to have some good bottom end to it. They are priced fairly reasonable at $125 a piece.
> 
> Billy Gibbons is sort of a BS'r and you can't ever take what he says a gospel. He doesn't want other people to know exactly what he played on a certain song or album. I've read on other forums where people were acting like they knew exactly what he played on any give song. It's all BS. No one knows that and I doubt if Billy can remember what all he played on certain songs.
> 
> The best thing you can do is attempt to get his sound. Remember, he sometimes uses a quarter or a peso as a guitar pick. Yeah Josh was wanting to obtain the Def Leppard sound and that's pretty hard, but ZZ Top? They had a different mojo going on. Every song could be a different amp, different cab, different pickups, etc., etc.
> 
> I know it's pricey doing speaker swaps. You sort of want to hit it dead on with your first purchase. I say try and find as many sound clips as you can and maybe that will help. One thing is for sure, you'll need a Les Paul.



I've got a couple of these and think they are really good for rock and even blues. Celestion brands them more for heavy grinding modern metal but to me they are an all arounder. Mids are really nice in these. Lowend is awesome and highend abit restrained. Not a scooped speaker like a t-75.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Well I knew that JOE was about to pop 1000, but I got involved in Alan's ZZ Top predicament. I ending up writing a novel and while I was doing that, you guy's were popping the bubbly and drinking the Tennessee bourbon. I am particular to Jack Daniel's and Wild Turkey myself. Anyway, I will say...*

Happy 1,000 Joe. You are a great forum member.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got the Paul. I traded my old LP Deluxe for a 2006 1958 RI. Put some Wolfetone Dr. Vintage pickups in it. I can nail Bedroom Thang, La Grange, etc. but I just can't quite get to that Tush sound. It's gotta be a Marshall.

Def Leppard I can do. I had Photograph dialed in not long after I got the DSL. I know what you mean about the Reverend Willy G. He seems to take some pleasure in being an enigma. Remember the Rio Grande amps? 

I actually have a couple of 1x12 cabs with G12K-100's in them, and I believe that Joe does, too. They are really good speakers. I bought them (forgive me) to go with my Crate Powerblock/PodXT setup. I know it ain't tube tone, but it's pretty handy for those weird gigs when you need a lot of tones at your disposal. I also discovered that they sound great with my Blackheart Little Giant head. They seem to bring out that Vox-ey chime from the EL84's. Crate was using them a lot a year or two ago in their V series amps and cabs, which is probably why Billy G. buddied up to them. I've got a clip somewhere on my computer from when ZZ Top did the Letterman show. They did this La Grange thing that ended with the Tush riff. The tone is there, but I don't think I'll be buying a Billy-Bo anytime soon.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Well I knew that JOE was about to pop 1000, but I got involved in Alan's ZZ Top predicament. I ending up writing a novel and while I was doing that, you guy's were popping the bubbly and drinking the Tennessee bourbon. I am particular to Jack Daniel's and Wild Turkey myself. Anyway, I will say...*
> 
> Happy 1,000 Joe. You are a great forum member.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well then there's his SIG 59 Les Paul "starting at" $26,000.


----------



## RiverRatt

Right. All I need to do is sell a kidney. I'm happy just to have my R8. It's the guitar I've wanted since I was 11 years old and playing a Tiesco Del Rey.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here's some TEN's for sale on EBAY.
> 
> 2 CELESTION 10" Guitar amp cabinet Speaker G10-30 AVT - eBay (item 350258633652 end time Oct-01-09 17:41:57 PDT)



Did you notice these were being sold by Avatar? If they don't go up to high, I might bid on them. I have about 16 10-inch speakers in stock, but they are all Eminence. These are actually new speakers, bought as surplus.


----------



## Procter2812

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaonDJe8XC8]YouTube - Video 5 - TechTube testing in Marshall 1987[/ame]

Enjoy Kids! 

Techtube E813CC


Alex


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> YouTube - Video 5 - TechTube testing in Marshall 1987
> 
> Enjoy Kids!
> 
> Techtube E813CC
> 
> 
> Alex



I sent this to Marty some time ago in a PM so we's already checked it out. Cool lil' vid though.


----------



## Procter2812

Ahh you beat me too it haha!

I won that Brimar ECC83! 7 pounds!!!! bargain... i hope!

Alex


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Ahh you beat me too it haha!
> 
> I won that Brimar ECC83! 7 pounds!!!! bargain... i hope!
> 
> Alex



Oh nice man! Yeah hope its good'n.

Well let us know soon as you get a chance to plop it in how it sounds.


----------



## ken361

This is the penta labs/groove tube mullard tube, I tone tested it with the stock v1, rft, telefunken, mesa. As of today im kinda digging the penta labs, it a bit brighter and little more clearer then the rest. The RFT second favorite, i like the crunch maybe a little better then the penta, the penta seem to have a bit more power, chimmy, glassy tone. I play more high gain red, this tube prob. awsome in the green clean with a strat. Dougs tubes still has some of these left after that thats it. really doubt groove tubes will make another like this, Doug said no one at fender can do this. Still like to try a mullard from Marty.
http://


http://


next time I turn up it might sound not as good, but you know how that goes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

*So, you like this tube over an RFT and a Telefunken? I doubt if you would like a Mullard. The Tele would be picked over the Mullard 7 out of 10 times. Most people feel a smooth plate Tele is the best V1 tube, period. I actually like an Amperex 7025 in V1, but they are hard to come by. I know I still have some, but when you have 400+ tubes, you are always looking through boxes. I need to separate the tubes by brands, that would make it easier. 

If the GT12AX7M makes you happy...go with it.*


----------



## ken361

Are you mullards labled or relabled or both, blackburns? trades?


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I want to let the Aussie's on this thread know that there is a major tube seller on EBAY from Perth. He has been on EBAY for about three months or so, selling some really nice pre and power tubes. His user name is: angst46.

Look him up and then check out his auctions. Time to get some smokin toobs.*


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Crack open a cold one cause its 1K time brohans!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Pop! Glug glug glug glug glug slurp!
> 
> Belch!



That's it. No more post parties for me. I woke up with an unmerciful hangover and my stomach doing flips. To add insult to injury, I didn't even stay up to bid on the Mullard and it went for $19.01.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Can I ask what hapened? Did you actually sit and drink bourbon until late at night? I haven't done that in a long time. One thing I don't miss is hangovers. 

I'm sorry you missed out on the tube.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Are you mullards labled or relabled or both, blackburns? trades?



The majority of my Mullards are relabeled. I can buy them at a lower cost. Most are Blackburn codes, since that was the largest plant and made a lot of the small signal tubes.

You should try your luck on EBAY. Lots of single and two tube Mullard auctions going on. Do you have an EBAY account?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I didn't go overboard. It was probably a combination of the bourbon and working until 9 p.m. last evening. That's the first hangover I've had in years. I was sleepy and the Mullard I was watching went from $9.95 to $19.01 with an hour and a half left to go. I figured it was going to go much higher in the final mintues and I didn't want it that bad. I wish I'd stayed up, now.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's it. No more post parties for me. I woke up with an unmerciful hangover and my stomach doing flips. To add insult to injury, I didn't even stay up to bid on the Mullard and it went for $19.01.



The train kept roll'n hah?!!!

Sorry you missed out on the Toob!

We got a 2K party coming up man. You gonna be there right...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I'll make sure there is plenty of Root Beer and Apple Cider.*


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> This is the penta labs/groove tube mullard tube, I tone tested it with the stock v1, rft, telefunken, mesa. As of today im kinda digging the penta labs, it a bit brighter and little more clearer then the rest. The RFT second favorite, i like the crunch maybe a little better then the penta, the penta seem to have a bit more power, chimmy, glassy tone. I play more high gain red, this tube prob. awsome in the green clean with a strat. Dougs tubes still has some of these left after that thats it. really doubt groove tubes will make another like this, Doug said no one at fender can do this. Still like to try a mullard from Marty.
> http://
> 
> 
> http://
> 
> 
> next time I turn up it might sound not as good, but you know how that goes!



My Penta Lab didn't last very long before it started to rattle. I got it from Doug's several months ago. It was a decent sounding tube though. I had mine in V3 after moving it around. Maybe that's why it took a shit? I like the Mullard RI's too. Its a lower gain 12AX7 and is a nice way to clear things up a smidge.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> My Penta Lab didn't last very long before it started to rattle. I got it from Doug's several months ago. It was a decent sounding tube though. I had mine in V3 after moving it around. Maybe that's why it took a shit? I like the Mullard RI's too. Its a lower gain 12AX7 and is a nice way to clear things up a smidge.



those were the gain of 105/100


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> those were the gain of 105/100



The GT Mullard was 105/100 or the Penta?

I'm noticing that the GT Mullard says made in China. Now I know GT's are rebrands mostly(they have a couple that are tooled by them)but my Mullard RI is made in Russia. It actually says 110/115 on it. It does not sound high gain though. 

The Tubestore has what I think is a pretty accurate description of how mine sounds:

 This is a nice tube but in my opinion better suited to home audio than guitar amps. The tubes have well balanced triode pairs and a very even flat response. Compared to a Tung Sol it sounds a bit flat, but so does a NOS Mullard. Microphonics are not an issue despite the larger that average plate structure. The transconductance on my sample was the same as two NOS samples I measured. Not really high gain at all, but a real good noise floor and a nice smooth tone that doesn’t encourage ear fatigue the way some preamps can be. The Tung-Sol 12AX7 is my favorite preamp for guitars because it accentuates highs and lows. The Mullard adds virtually no tone coloring and is smoother sounding to my ear that a JJ ECC83S. For hi-fi gear the Mullard will likely be a winner but there are better choices for guitar amps for less money."


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I'm getting sort of concerned. In the last week or so, the prices of tubes on EBAY have shot through the roof. I don't have an explanation for this. For example: Same seller, same tubes, same quality, two weeks ago $71 for four. Today $156. Another example: Four Amperex 12AX7's. They held steady at $86. Final sales price, $188. I've seen some tubes go in the high three hundred dollars. A good deal on Telefunkens last week was $30 each. Now it is like $50 or higher. I had nine lots of tubes earmarked and they all came due within five minutes of each other. I didn't win a single lot. Most went for $50 over my high bid. I hope this is just a temporary situation. I hope it's not a permanent trend.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I'm getting sort of concerned. In the last week or so, the prices of tubes on EBAY have shot through the roof. I don't have an explanation for this. For example: Same seller, same tubes, same quality, two weeks ago $71 for four. Today $156. Another example: Four Amperex 12AX7's. They held steady at $86. Final sales price, $188. I've seen some tubes go in the high three hundred dollars. A good deal on Telefunkens last week was $30 each. Now it is like $50 or higher. I had nine lots of tubes earmarked and they all came due within five minutes of each other. I didn't win a single lot. Most went for $50 over my high bid. I hope this is just a temporary situation. I hope it's not a permanent trend.*



What worries me about this is they have buyers that are paying that price. That will reinforce making that extra cash now. I also wonder why they went up...

On a side note guess what preamp tube just died on me a few moments ago?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What worries me about this is they have buyers that are paying that price. That will reinforce making that extra cash now. I wonder why too they went up?
> 
> On a side note guess what preamp tube just died on me a few moments ago?



*You have so many, I'll need a hint. Is it all numbers, or does it rhyme with Lack Late? I'm hoping it Chinese.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *You have so many, I'll need a hint. Is it all numbers, or does it rhyme with Lack Late? I'm hoping it Chinese.*



I'll give you a hint. Fist letter of my name twice...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thank God it wasn't an American tube. It was a Joe Joe.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thank God it wasn't an American tube. It was a Joe Joe.



Hahaha! That JJ 803S went out with a big ass HUMMMMMMMMMMMM! Guess the rumors were true about it. I really liked how it sounded but Z experiment is over! The results are final. I can not recommend this one.

I'm demoing the JJ EL34L now. Haven't got them up to volume yet so I can't say yet but just from what I have experienced at lower volume they are alot like my Tung Sol EL34B's. I think there are only 2 CP power tubes I haven't tried yet. The Mullard RI and the EH. Oh and the plain ole JJ El34 I haven't but I really don't want to anyways.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*That's the nice thing about having a two tube power amp. It's a lot cheaper and easier to do tube comparisons. Man, you have a load of CP EL34's. Good! I can count on you to make some suggestions. I already told someone to look you up about some feedback on preamp tubes for a DSL100. I figured that you were the man for the job.

Well that 803 was supposed to be the "hot" JJ. I guess it really got hot.*


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I want to let the Aussie's on this thread know that there is a major tube seller on EBAY from Perth. He has been on EBAY for about three months or so, selling some really nice pre and power tubes. His user name is: angst46.
> 
> Look him up and then check out his auctions. Time to get some smokin toobs.*



Oh, I got some tubes off him. Only thing is i asked him the same question twice by mistake and he replied with "I told you twice, stupid" type of response. I was a bit dissapointed in the response to customers. But the guy was going through alot now, which I didn't know. I got a bit ticked off too when he asked me to pay him for an item I already paid for. I responded to him like he responded to me before. The guy seems to be going through alot so i didn't reply to his angry response. Oh, and for that he banned me from his auctions (lol). he does have some nice tubes, but I already got the good ones from him I wanted, so that's enough for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Well every once in a while, I'll break my rules and buy from an overseas buyer. Right now, I'm toying with the idea of doing some business with a German chap. 

I can't believe you bought tubes from that guy. How long did it take for the tubes to get delivered? That's funny...you got into a beef with him and he axed you. Wow! Your a bad boy.*


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The GT Mullard was 105/100 or the Penta?
> 
> I'm noticing that the GT Mullard says made in China. Now I know GT's are rebrands mostly(they have a couple that are tooled by them)but my Mullard RI is made in Russia. It actually says 110/115 on it. It does not sound high gain though.
> 
> The Tubestore has what I think is a pretty accurate description of how mine sounds:
> 
> This is a nice tube but in my opinion better suited to home audio than guitar amps. The tubes have well balanced triode pairs and a very even flat response. Compared to a Tung Sol it sounds a bit flat, but so does a NOS Mullard. Microphonics are not an issue despite the larger that average plate structure. The transconductance on my sample was the same as two NOS samples I measured. Not really high gain at all, but a real good noise floor and a nice smooth tone that doesn’t encourage ear fatigue the way some preamps can be. The Tung-Sol 12AX7 is my favorite preamp for guitars because it accentuates highs and lows. The Mullard adds virtually no tone coloring and is smoother sounding to my ear that a JJ ECC83S. For hi-fi gear the Mullard will likely be a winner but there are better choices for guitar amps for less money."



there the same tube according to doug, penta had the first run of them. they coudn't sell them till fender bought groove tubes. Still going to test it more to see who wins the v1 lol


----------



## jupiter89

I really got drawn in by this thread ! I have 2 questions: what is meant by "microphonics", and what does V4's "PI" means ?

Thanks !!!


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Well every once in a while, I'll break my rules and buy from an overseas buyer. Right now, I'm toying with the idea of doing some business with a German chap.
> 
> I can't believe you bought tubes from that guy. How long did it take for the tubes to get delivered? That's funny...you got into a beef with him and he axed you. Wow! Your a bad boy.*



Yep, I bought a pair of Sylvania tubes from the 60's I think. They were pretty old, I think they were supposed to be Baldwins but the label is all worn off on one. It's got a red tip on it, which is a bit different.

I also won another pair from him, but these were some NIB Smooth plate Tele's made for Leeds and Northrup. I got these bid up for $192 US. These are the ones the guy asked me to pay, saying in his e-mail that it's been quite some time I haven't paid him and that he was getting impatient with the wait. Only then did I tell him to check again and low and behold he had already gotten the payment. (This incident was AFTER the time he rudely replied about a question with the two Sylvanias.) So it was my chance to get rude with him. The two Tele's tubes have been shipped. Hopefully the tubes were packed well, kinda worried now, after the beef (lol). 

Anyhow, second time getting into beef with a seller. The other time was when this dude from a shop called LAvintagegear started being a total asswipe because I asked him a question. His response was super rude after I asked him a simple question about a cabinet. I was a bit surprised to see a response like that. maybe the guy was having a super bad day or something. It was a long argument back and forth for some time. These guys supposedly have famous clients that shop there, like avril lavigne and andy summers. i guess after all these famous clients the guys there just got thier noses all the way up thier asses.

These were the only two BAD experiences I've had with sellers on ebay. other then that, I've asked a bunch of silly questions to people, and they all gave me good responses. I mean, I think it's better that the question is stupid rather than not ask and get a pair of really shitty tubes.

Oh, and BTW I did buy a pair of really nice NOS Sylvanias from this guy in Germany called Papa_Bjoern. Really nice guy to deal with and sent some really good tubes. These Sylvanias were nethier green nor yellow or red. They had a bit of a purplish label on them. I'll try to dig them up so I can post them later if you want to see them.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *That's the nice thing about having a two tube power amp. It's a lot cheaper and easier to do tube comparisons. Man, you have a load of CP EL34's. Good! I can count on you to make some suggestions. I already told someone to look you up about some feedback on preamp tubes for a DSL100. I figured that you were the man for the job.
> 
> Well that 803 was supposed to be the "hot" JJ. I guess it really got hot.*



No problemos man. I will hep if I can.

Yeah having to use only 2 power tubes makes a big difference money wise. I wouldn't have that freedom to try em' if it was a DSL100...

Actually the 803S is the lower gain JJ. The hot one is the 83S. It didn't last very long at all. Probably 3 or 4 hrs tops on it altogether. I'm gonna shoot Doug an email and let him know "it" happened to the JJ hehe.


----------



## solarburn

jupiter89 said:


> I really got drawn in by this thread ! I have 2 questions: what is meant by "microphonics", and what does V4's "PI" means ?
> 
> Thanks !!!



Microphonics is a noisy tube. That's a simple answer. The PI stands for phase inverter. It is the driver slot for the power tubes. I have to go to work now so others will clarify more.

Welcome to our lil' thread by the way!

Here is a vid on a microphonic tube:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM2qWZYbInI[/ame]


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I'm getting sort of concerned. In the last week or so, the prices of tubes on EBAY have shot through the roof. I don't have an explanation for this. For example: Same seller, same tubes, same quality, two weeks ago $71 for four. Today $156. Another example: Four Amperex 12AX7's. They held steady at $86. Final sales price, $188. I've seen some tubes go in the high three hundred dollars. A good deal on Telefunkens last week was $30 each. Now it is like $50 or higher. I had nine lots of tubes earmarked and they all came due within five minutes of each other. I didn't win a single lot. Most went for $50 over my high bid. I hope this is just a temporary situation. I hope it's not a permanent trend.*



Well, put it this way. I realized that I must have contributed to the high price. I had about over 30 separate shipments of just preamp tubes. About 25 of them have already been delivered. I still have about 5 more tubes that are coming to my house. I've invested ALOT on these tubes lately and will have to stop buying for some time. So if you think about it, that's pretty much all I've been doing these days. Just buying and looking for pre-amp tubes. Now my arsenal of tubes is almost complete. I just have to get those 5 RCA NOS tubes and a pair of NOS Amperex Bugle boys, and my set is complete.


----------



## Jesstaa

I really need to hurry up and get a nice stock of tubes.
I'm aiming for 15 Mullards, 15 Teles and 15 RCAs. Then I'll move onto power tubes.

Although the move to power tubes might not be for a while. At the moment I'm saving up to get an SL-X head, 2 1960DM cabs and a Jackson King V with Kahler 7330.


----------



## Procter2812

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBK-VYclGeI&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Is It A Good Idea To Microwave Amp Tubes?[/ame]


Cool light show!

Waste of tubes though...


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOOB's!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Actually the 803S is the lower gain JJ. The hot one is the 83S.



*Ahh, I meant hot like in really hot to the touch (right before it blew). I wasn't talking about the gain.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Well, put it this way. I realized that I must have contributed to the high price. I had about over 30 separate shipments of just preamp tubes. About 25 of them have already been delivered. I still have about 5 more tubes that are coming to my house. I've invested ALOT on these tubes lately and will have to stop buying for some time. So if you think about it, that's pretty much all I've been doing these days. Just buying and looking for pre-amp tubes. Now my arsenal of tubes is almost complete. I just have to get those 5 RCA NOS tubes and a pair of NOS Amperex Bugle boys, and my set is complete.



*Ah ha! You're the culprit. Well, it's like I said, it would be nice if we were the only two bidders on EBAY. I screwed up royal last night. I missed making a bid on some STR Syvania Fat Boy 6CA7's. They sold for $89. I'm still pissed off at myself today.

If you're still looking for RCA's and some Amperex, I'll bid on the Black Plates and the Tele's.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> Yep, I bought a pair of Sylvania tubes from the 60's I think. They were pretty old, I think they were supposed to be Baldwins but the label is all worn off on one. It's got a red tip on it, which is a bit different.
> 
> The only tube I have ever know to have a red tip is a CBS Hytron tube. They were supposedly the best tube CBS made in a 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey! I just made page 50.

This is the hottest thread in town. We keep raking them in. Yeah baby!


----------



## MartyStrat54

jupiter89 said:


> I really got drawn in by this thread ! I have 2 questions: what is meant by "microphonics", and what does V4's "PI" means ?
> 
> Thanks !!!



For an explanation of microphonics see the vid.

The PI (Phase Inverter) tube is actually part of the power section. V4 takes the signal from the preamp and inverts it 180 degrees and then shoots it into the power tubes for amplification.

It was once believed that you needed to use a balanced tube for V4. This is not the case. Some people purposely put a highly lopsided tube in V4, because they like the tone. Harmonica players are known to do this with their amps. 

So any reasonable tube will work well in V4.


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> YouTube - Is It A Good Idea To Microwave Amp Tubes?
> 
> 
> Cool light show!
> 
> Waste of tubes though...



Is that all kids nowadays can come up with? Microwaving stuff? They've been watching too much iCarly. When I was that age, we did more productive stuff, like making bongs out of common household items. 

I've got to get home before the rest of the family today. Got some new goodies from Marty to try out at volume.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...and we love volume!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! Yes we do. And I beat the wife and kids home by 15 minutes. Woohoo. That was a short jam. 

Marty, did you get my PM about the RFTs?


----------



## Adwex

Man, I'd love to hear a good NOS tube in my Jub. 

"Tube in my Jub"? That sounds dirty....and it rhymes. Maybe a song title? LOL!

I'd love to just pop on in there for a few minutes just to see if it's worth the expense.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Ahh, I meant hot like in really hot to the touch (right before it blew). I wasn't talking about the gain.*



Lil' firecracker...


----------



## solarburn

Adwex said:


> Man, I'd love to hear a good NOS tube in my Jub.
> 
> "Tube in my Jub"? That sounds dirty....and it rhymes. Maybe a song title? LOL!
> 
> I'd love to just pop on in there for a few minutes just to see if it's worth the expense.



That was a whole lot of this


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! Yes we do. And I beat the wife and kids home by 15 minutes. Woohoo. That was a short jam.
> 
> Did you get my PM about the RFTs?



Talk aboot a quickie...

But was it good for you too?:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Adwex said:


> Man, I'd love to hear a good NOS tube in my Jub.
> 
> "Tube in my Jub"? That sounds dirty....and it rhymes. Maybe a song title? LOL!
> 
> I'd love to just pop on in there for a few minutes just to see if it's worth the expense.



*I'm not familiar with that amp. Does it have the standard four preamp tubes? If so, you can make a world of difference with an NOS V1 and V2. 

I tell people that you don't have to go straight to the exotics. A good RCA 12AX7A in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 will make a huge tonal difference in your amp. I then recommend that you put a Sylvania Gray Plate in V3. A lot of current production tubes are failing in V3. However, an NOS tube handles it with ease.

You ought to give them a go...Mr. Super Moderator.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I've been replenishing my stock of Telefunkens. I just got eight more in. Six were smooth plate and two were ribbed. I got another 12 in last week. Eight were from the same seller.

I've been buying more of these as I have gotten low. I guess I sort of forgot how nice a 26-26 Tele is in V1. It's a toss up between an Amperex and a Tele. I think in most boutique amps a Tele just crushes in V1. I finally met a guy with a Twister amp over the weekend. He had the F3. He had a smooth plate Tele in V1, an RCA 12AX7 (1959 Gray Plate) in V2 and a GE in V3. Neither tube was a high gainer, but in that amp it didn't matter. I posted a link on another thread about a guy looking for the ideal amp and I put down Fuchs and Twister. Joe, well he likes the Greasy Monkey (that just doesn't sound right). 

Anyway, this guy comes by and boy what a nice amp. Twister says that it is not a JCM800, or a JCM900, or a 1987, or a 2204. Well, whatever it is it sounded really good. It could get gritty and do the Marshall thing pretty good. It comes with EL34's, but it will bias up to 6L6's and KT66's. Please note: No IC or SS in this amp.

He had a 212 cab with Weber's in it. It was a close back so I couldn't see what model they were.

He played a USA Tele with custom pick ups made somewhere in Texas. I think I remember seeing the website before. I plugged my Explorer into it and it has some really hot pickups. I could get the amp to do controlled squeals. It was awesome.

However, back to the Telefunken. I think it gave that amp a lot of personality. 

He had the Blue head. I really liked this one Joe.*

Twister Handbuilt Guitar Amplifiers - Dayton, Ohio


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I've been replenishing my stock of Telefunkens. I just got eight more in. Six were smooth plate and two were ribbed. I got another 12 in last week. Eight were from the same seller.
> 
> I've been buying more of these as I have gotten low. I guess I sort of forgot how nice a 26-26 Tele is in V1. It's a toss up between an Amperex and a Tele. I think in most boutique amps a Tele just crushes in V1. I finally met a guy with a Twister amp over the weekend. He had the F3. He had a smooth plate Tele in V1, an RCA 12AX7 (1959 Gray Plate) in V2 and a GE in V3. Neither tube was a high gainer, but in that amp it didn't matter. I posted a link on another thread about a guy looking for the ideal amp and I put down Fuchs and Twister. Joe, well he likes the Greasy Monkey (that just doesn't sound right).
> 
> Anyway, this guy comes by and boy what a nice amp. Twister says that it is not a JCM800, or a JCM900, or a 1987, or a 2204. Well, whatever it is it sounded really good. It could get gritty and do the Marshall thing pretty good. It comes with EL34's, but it will bias up to 6L6's and KT66's. Please note: No IC or SS in this amp.
> 
> He had a 212 cab with Weber's in it. It was a close back so I couldn't see what model they were.
> 
> He played a USA Tele with custom pick ups made somewhere in Texas. I think I remember seeing the website before. I plugged my Explorer into it and it has some really hot pickups. I could get the amp to do controlled squeals. It was awesome.
> 
> However, back to the Telefunken. I think it gave that amp a lot of personality.
> 
> He had the Blue head. I really liked this one Joe.*
> 
> Twister Handbuilt Guitar Amplifiers - Dayton, Ohio



Its "Grease Monkey" not Greasy Monkey. That just ain't right! Haha. The price on the Twister isn't in outer space either. Wish there were more clips of it on the site. So it had good dynamics, feel and sustain? That's a what I like. Oh and can it get GREASEY hehe? Must have been good to get your attention. I'll have to keep Twister on my radar and see if I can find some more clips somewhere.

You know the Telefunken is a tube I don't have or heard. Is it better in a vintage amp then say like a DSL or will it sound good there too. How about my Night Train? Its not like I play heavy metal...


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, thanks for all the help. The amp is sounding GREAT. Got the Mullard in V1, Raytheon BP in V2, Sylvania in V3 and a RFT 7025A in V4. I'm finding a LOT to like about this setup.

I'd like to hear your views on different tube tester readings. It would be extremely helpful to have a guide that explains Hickok numbers vs. B&K numbers, etc. For instance, that 1966 short gray plate Mullard I picked up tested fairly low at 1575/1600 out of 3000 on a Hickok, but it's got gain for days and sounds better than a lot of new tubes I've tried.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I'm not familiar with that amp. Does it have the standard four preamp tubes? If so, you can make a world of difference with an NOS V1 and V2.
> 
> I tell people that you don't have to go straight to the exotics. A good RCA 12AX7A in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 will make a huge tonal difference in your amp. I then recommend that you put a Sylvania Gray Plate in V3. A lot of current production tubes are failing in V3. However, an NOS tube handles it with ease.
> 
> You ought to give them a go...Mr. Super Moderator.*



I checked the schematic and it uses 3 preamp tubes.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> When I was that age, we did more productive stuff, like making bongs out of common household items.



Now thats what i call productive


----------



## Jesstaa

Procter2812 said:


> Now thats what i call productive



I agree, Ratt, got any tips? I made a nice one out of a listerine bottle =D 
Minty fresh.


----------



## zimske

so, finally got a hold of my camera to snap some photos of the tubes that were in my 2203. the labels are worn of, almost completely, but if anyone can tell, or at least narrow the range, of what these could be, that'd be awesome.
the first tube has couple of smudges that could perhaps be identifiable, but the second only has that tiny little smudglet and could be a little bit difficult to tell.

anyway, here goes...!


----------



## Adwex

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I'm not familiar with that amp. Does it have the standard four preamp tubes? If so, you can make a world of difference with an NOS V1 and V2.
> 
> <snip>....*



Sorry...

Jub = Silver Jubilee

It has 3 preamp tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

zimske said:


> so, finally got a hold of my camera to snap some photos of the tubes that were in my 2203. the labels are worn of, almost completely, but if anyone can tell, or at least narrow the range, of what these could be, that'd be awesome.
> the first tube has couple of smudges that could perhaps be identifiable, but the second only has that tiny little smudglet and could be a little bit difficult to tell.
> 
> anyway, here goes...!



Those are Tungsrams. Good tubes! The little metal tag on the getter post is a dead giveaway. The double posts on the getter are a good Tungsram identifier, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Jesstaa said:


> I agree, Ratt, got any tips? I made a nice one out of a listerine bottle =D
> Minty fresh.



Yes. Brass instrument mouthpieces such as trumpet and french horn make good bowls. You may have to add some tubing to the end to make the mouthpiece long enough. Don't use trombone or tuba mouthpieces unless you have a really big party or a really big stash.


----------



## Puffer Fish

It's a toss up between an Amperex and a Tele. I think in most boutique amps a Tele just crushes in V1. I finally met a guy with a Twister amp over the weekend. He had the F3. He had a smooth plate Tele in V1, an RCA 12AX7 (1959 Gray Plate) in V2 and a GE in V3.....

Hello, I have not been here for awhile, but I could not resist jumping in on all the preamp tube / valve talk! I have not had the opportunity to use any Telefunkens, but I do have a couple Amperex 12ax7s and i think they are fantastic. I was able to find some RCAs and a couple Mullards as well. I cycled them all through a couple amplifiers to listen to the differences. I was pleased with them all, to tell you the truth. I settled with a Mullard in my V1 on my DSL 401, but it was a tough choice. I can't remember what I have in all the rest of the preamp positions, but I have a JJ 12wd7 in one of the sockets to cut/ control gain in OD 1 and OD 2, there is an RCA and an Amperex in the two other spots and I can't remember what I have in the phase inverter.

Marty, if I recall properly, you unload some of those 12ax7s from time to time, is that correct? Let me know if that is the case. Cheers to you all, it is always good to read the insights of you all!


----------



## Procter2812

Awesome....

Just got my Brimar and it appears to be a Mullard Relabeled!

It has the same ECC83 markings as my other Mullard... has a blackburn code... B1A 

and has the same construction with 3 ribs and a seam on the top!


7 quid.... now to test it

Alex


----------



## solarburn

Puffer Fish said:


> It's a toss up between an Amperex and a Tele. I think in most boutique amps a Tele just crushes in V1. I finally met a guy with a Twister amp over the weekend. He had the F3. He had a smooth plate Tele in V1, an RCA 12AX7 (1959 Gray Plate) in V2 and a GE in V3.....
> 
> Hello, I have not been here for awhile, but I could not resist jumping in on all the preamp tube / valve talk! I have not had the opportunity to use any Telefunkens, but I do have a couple Amperex 12ax7s and i think they are fantastic. I was able to find some RCAs and a couple Mullards as well. I cycled them all through a couple amplifiers to listen to the differences. I was pleased with them all, to tell you the truth. I settled with a Mullard in my V1 on my DSL 401, but it was a tough choice. I can't remember what I have in all the rest of the preamp positions, but I have a JJ 12wd7 in one of the sockets to cut/ control gain in OD 1 and OD 2, there is an RCA and an Amperex in the two other spots and I can't remember what I have in the phase inverter.
> 
> Marty, if I recall properly, you unload some of those 12ax7s from time to time, is that correct? Let me know if that is the case. Cheers to you all, it is always good to read the insights of you all!



Yeah PF he sells them.

It has been a time since you've been around. Welcome back!

I may have to have a lil' talk with Marty about a Telefunken...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Its "Grease Monkey" not Greasy Monkey. That just ain't right! Haha.



*Ha-ha-ha!Yeah I knew that, but it made it more "fishy" smelling calling it a greasy monkey. I promise not to make fun of it any more.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Those are Tungsrams. Good tubes! The little metal tag on the getter post is a dead giveaway. The double posts on the getter are a good Tungsram identifier, too.



*Yeah nice score ZIMSKE. As Alan stated the little numbered tags are a dead giveaway. They were the only company that did this. Their internal construction is fairly identifiable, but for some tube without any markings left, it can be tough. Philips had an interest in just about all of the tube manufacturers in Britain and Europe, therefore a lot of the 12xx7 tubes had very similar construction.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Puffer Fish said:


> It's a toss up between an Amperex and a Tele. I think in most boutique amps a Tele just crushes in V1. I finally met a guy with a Twister amp over the weekend. He had the F3. He had a smooth plate Tele in V1, an RCA 12AX7 (1959 Gray Plate) in V2 and a GE in V3.....
> 
> Hello, I have not been here for awhile, but I could not resist jumping in on all the preamp tube / valve talk! I have not had the opportunity to use any Telefunkens, but I do have a couple Amperex 12ax7s and i think they are fantastic. I was able to find some RCAs and a couple Mullards as well. I cycled them all through a couple amplifiers to listen to the differences. I was pleased with them all, to tell you the truth. I settled with a Mullard in my V1 on my DSL 401, but it was a tough choice. I can't remember what I have in all the rest of the preamp positions, but I have a JJ 12wd7 in one of the sockets to cut/ control gain in OD 1 and OD 2, there is an RCA and an Amperex in the two other spots and I can't remember what I have in the phase inverter.
> 
> Marty, if I recall properly, you unload some of those 12ax7s from time to time, is that correct? Let me know if that is the case. Cheers to you all, it is always good to read the insights of you all!



*Well I hope you aren't using an Amperex as your PI tube, cuz that's a waste of a good tube. 

I feel the same. The Amperex and the Telefunken are very close in sound, but I think the Telefunken gets a little fatter in the top end when driven hard. The Amperex is a sweet tube and it breaks up with more control so it is tighter sounding at high drive levels.

If you have a couple of Amperex's and some RCA's, you are getting a nice little stash started. The Mullard is the standard for British/European tubes. I love how a Mullard sounds when it is driven hard. Perfect for hard blues...no pedal necessary.*

*BTW...Welcome back! You've been gone for a while.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, thanks for all the help. The amp is sounding GREAT. Got the Mullard in V1, Raytheon BP in V2, Sylvania in V3 and a RFT 7025A in V4. I'm finding a LOT to like about this setup.
> 
> I'd like to hear your views on different tube tester readings. It would be extremely helpful to have a guide that explains Hickok numbers vs. B&K numbers, etc. For instance, that 1966 short gray plate Mullard I picked up tested fairly low at 1575/1600 out of 3000 on a Hickok, but it's got gain for days and sounds better than a lot of new tubes I've tried.



*Well that could take awhile since every manufacturer had his own set of test numbers and scale range. Hickok models read differently model from model and the many, many emissions testers out their had all different reading scales. 

The best thing is when a seller states the model of tester they are using, what an NOS tube should read and what their tubes read. Then they should state what the minimum is. That way, you can get a good idea of what shape the tube is in. 

Just so you know, most (not all) Hickok's state the minimum good value on a 12AX7 is 1250.

As you know, my tester states a good 12AX7 starts at 22. However, a 20-20 tube can still be highly serviceable. I bought some tubes from a guy recently and one of his tubes read 9-6.*


----------



## RiverRatt

I've wondered about the Hickok testers. Greengirl said that 1250 was minimum on her tester, but I've seen others say that 1250 is minimum NEW, and that 875 is nominal. 

I was just chasing a single 50's Mullard UNTESTED ECC83 that went for $58. That's too much money for a no guarantee tube. That one I was watching Tuesday night went for $19 just because it was branded "Heath by Mullard", I guess.

Speaking of GG, is this a good deal on a Tele? It was listed a couple of dollars higher and nobody bought it.

Vintage Telefunken Fisher 12AX7 ECC83 Stereo Tube <> - eBay (item 400076757582 end time Nov-01-09 11:32:21 PST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've wondered about the Hickok testers. Greengirl said that 1250 was minimum on her tester, but I've seen others say that 1250 is minimum NEW, and that 875 is nominal.
> 
> I was just chasing a single 50's Mullard UNTESTED ECC83 that went for $58. That's too much money for a no guarantee tube. That one I was watching Tuesday night went for $19 just because it was branded "Heath by Mullard", I guess.
> 
> Speaking of GG, is this a good deal on a Tele? It was listed a couple of dollars higher and nobody bought it.
> 
> Vintage Telefunken Fisher 12AX7 ECC83 Stereo Tube <> - eBay (item 400076757582 end time Nov-01-09 11:32:21 PST)



*$30 to $40 is the average going rate for a Tele. She doesn't state if it is a ribbed or smooth plate. Just so you know, most people prefer the smooth plate. From the picture, it looks to be a real Tele. I bought some Tele's about two weeks ago and they didn't have the diamond on the bottom. I did some research and they were RFT's, but made to Telefunken specifications. They are completely different looking than a regular Tele, but I love the way they sound in V1. Although it says "Telefunken" on the tube, some of the other identifying marks are not on the tube.

Also, be warned that the Chinese are involved in a scam selling fake Tele tubes. It's real easy to tell. The logo's will not rub off as they are painted on. Some of these have made it to EBAY.*


----------



## RiverRatt

It is a smooth plate diamond bottom. Now that I've got that coming, what's next? My checklist is getting shorter. Maybe a Mazda chrome plate?


----------



## jupiter89

Hi solarburnDSL50 ! Coincidently enough, I also have a 2004 DSL50 and purchased a Vox Night Train this weekend. (I also have a 1989 JCM800 2204 (50w). The DSL50 was modded, original owner said output transformer was upgraded, and a few select resistor and cap changes. You mention "Martimus Maximus Tone Pack" - is that a package deal of all the pre-amp tubes that some firm sells? Big before and after difference in sound ? Hey thanks for the PI and microphonic answers !


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It is a smooth plate diamond bottom. Now that I've got that coming, what's next? My checklist is getting shorter. Maybe a Mazda chrome plate?



You bought it yes? Great. Well I looked again at the listing and all it had in the title was <>. It didn't say whether it was a smooth or ribbed. Did you contact her before buying? She's a good, honest tube seller. I bought from her when she was first starting out on EBAY. (I'd like to know where some of these seller's find all of these tubes.)

Them French Mazda's don't seem to make any lists. They might have a following with the Hi Fi set, but I don't hear guitarist's raving about the Mazda they have in V1. If you are wanting to go in that price range, get a Bugle Boy Amperex. Do you have any Amperex right now?


----------



## MartyStrat54

jupiter89 said:


> You mention "Martimus Maximus Tone Pack" - is that a package deal of all the pre-amp tubes that some firm sells? Big before and after difference in sound ? Hey thanks for the PI and microphonic answers !



*Hey J89. SolarBurn gave me that name. I sell tubes and Joe, SolarBurn, is one of my good customers. *


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I bought it. I was really happy with the Mullard I got from her.

I was just reading about that Mazda tube and how it's one of the most expensive AX7's ever made. I don't think I'll be buying one anytime soon unless it's for an investment.

No, I don't have an Amperex yet. They were a little out of my price range this time. I need to sell some more crap on ebay. UPS brought the Celestion Vintage 10 for my little Crate class A amp today. I may get it sounding right and take it to the local music store and put it on consignment. Those guys don't know a tube from a chitlin, but they move some gear.

I'm not even sure how to spot a real Amperex. I had an Amperex bugle boy EZ81 that I pulled from a hi-fi, but it was really a Mullard.


----------



## solarburn

jupiter89 said:


> Hi solarburnDSL50 ! Coincidently enough, I also have a 2004 DSL50 and purchased a Vox Night Train this weekend. (I also have a 1989 JCM800 2204 (50w). The DSL50 was modded, original owner said output transformer was upgraded, and a few select resistor and cap changes. You mention "Martimus Maximus Tone Pack" - is that a package deal of all the pre-amp tubes that some firm sells? Big before and after difference in sound ? Hey thanks for the PI and microphonic answers !



Well hey there jupiter. I like your taste in amps hehe. I get my NOS tubes from Marty(MartyStrat54) here on the forum. You could call him my NOS tube broker. Hence the moniker "Martimus Maximus" which in all reality he lives up too especially devising NOS tone packs. Ok enough of that. His head must be getting huge...:eek2:

I have a bunch of NOS I've bought from him and he has been right on in that they really made a difference and now I have a hard time choosing which ones to use. I refer to them as tone packs cause we line up NOS preamp tubes/power tubes and then place them in certain order or I make my own mixes and share my findings. So a "tone pack" is a quick way of saying this set of preamp tubes/power tubes, which are usually a mixture(except power tubes) rock. You wouldn't call a bad mix a tone pack though...

I came up with a real nice tone pack for the NT including the power tubes if you are interested...

Any questions just ask man and the preamp thread is where we hang out alot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Well, it's like I said before. What happened in America with its tube companies happened to Britain/Europe and their tube companies. The solid state craze hit so fast that thousands of tubes were left sitting in warehouses. When tube plants started shutting down, everybody was buying off of everybody. A lot of tubes were "mislabeled" by the tube companies. TV tubes were the hardest hit. I've known where one tube had nine different part numbers put on it. Then you had GE and Sylvania trading tubes with each other. They hung in the longest, so they were always swapping tubes. If you remember their codes, you can tell who really made the tube. On top of all this, you add in the Japanese tubes. 

The better tube amp companies used the better tubes, so you will find Fisher tubes made by Amperex and Telefunken. Packard Bell used Amperex and Mullards. There are a lot of overseas brands that I know nothing about. Most of them bought Amperex or Mullards and relabeled them.

Another thing I touched on briefly in a prior post. Philips was the big controlling figure with European tubes. I can think of at least 15 brands that were all made by Philips. Amperex is one of them. The main thing I want to tell you is that for the most part, European tubes are of higher quality than American tubes. They bough most of their raw materials from the USA, but they put them together better. It's hard for me to say it, but it's true and that is why the real tube freaks, Hi Fi fanatics use Tele's, Mullards and Amperex. If RCA gray plates were best, they would be using them instead.

When you are ready for an Amperex, give me a hoot. *


----------



## jupiter89

I remember in the late 60's early 70's when my dad would send me to the local Super X drug store to test and buy new tubes for either the Zenith TV or the tube equipped stereo we had. At the front of the store was the tube tester that indicated something like poor, fair, good on a meter after you plugged in the tube into its appropiate socket. In the drawers below in pristine RCA and Sylvania boxes were brand new tubes for just a few bucks. I wonder what happened to all those old gems when the solid state TV's, radios and stereo came around ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

*As we speak they are being sold on EBAY.*


----------



## solarburn

jupiter89 said:


> I remember in the late 60's early 70's when my dad would send me to the local Super X drug store to test and buy new tubes for either the Zenith TV or the tube equipped stereo we had. At the front of the store was the tube tester that indicated something like poor, fair, good on a meter after you plugged in the tube into its appropiate socket. In the drawers below in pristine RCA and Sylvania boxes were brand new tubes for just a few bucks. I wonder what happened to all those old gems when the solid state TV's, radios and stereo came around ?



Could you imagine having those stored away somewhere and then finding them now in some garage sale for next to nothing...

Ok. I'm done dreaming.


----------



## Jesstaa

Just found a vid on youtube, you've probably all seen it already, but for those who haven't I thought it was pretty cool.
Yeah, it's a power tube, but this thread gets more attention.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnZRJjmOZb8]YouTube - Journey to the Center of a Tube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

Can you guys help me out with these tubes? I have two Sonotone-branded ECC83 tubes. I've always assumed they were RCA because they have a side getter, but they don't look like my RCA 12AU7A cleartops in their construction, and there is a little bit of flash in the top of the tubes. The plates look exactly like my 1966 Mullard, but they don't flash. They also don't have a box around the 12AX7A at the top of the tube like RCA tubes do. I know that a lot of Sonotone stuff is from Germany, but these are labled "Made in USA". Here's the best picture I could get. The bottom of the tube appears to have the number "14" embossed, with radial lines coming from the center. These pics are of the same tube. The one on the right is the side with the getter flash, but it didn't come through good in the pic. I don't think they look much like RCAs, but they may be.






I was doing an inventory of my main tone tubes. I have two RCA 12BZ7s, and i really don't need both. These are NOS and aren't microphonic. If anyone wants one of them, PM me.


----------



## Jesstaa

That has a huge plate o.0

And I want an RCA =P
But shipping would be a hell of alot >.>


----------



## Procter2812

Theres the Brimar( relabeled Mullard) on the left and the Yellow plate Mullard on the right.

They are the same. The Brimar even has a Blackburn code. 

Just because it had brimar on it was £7 and sounds awesome!

Alex


----------



## Jesstaa

What year is the brimar?


----------



## Procter2812

Between 62 and 64 i guess... so im goin with 63.

Alex


----------



## Jesstaa

Well what does the date code say?


----------



## Procter2812

I can only see B1A.

But i looked at the dating picture you put on the thread and it looks like one from 62-64.

It has BVA on and ECC83 in the Mullard Style writing and then the Brimar Logo


----------



## Jesstaa

That'd be 61 then.
B = blackburn, and I'm pretty sure the 1 is the last digit in the year, it'd be from the 60's, so 61.

48 years old xD


----------



## Procter2812

Jesstaa said:


> That'd be 61 then.
> B = blackburn, and I'm pretty sure the 1 is the last digit in the year, it'd be from the 60's, so 61.
> 
> 48 years old xD



Wowzaaaaaa

And still working strong!


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Theres the Brimar( relabeled Mullard) on the left and the Yellow plate Mullard on the right.
> 
> They are the same. The Brimar even has a Blackburn code.
> 
> Just because it had brimar on it was £7 and sounds awesome!
> 
> Alex



Look! Twins...


----------



## Jesstaa

What are you doing awake so early, Joe?


----------



## Jae

RiverRatt said:


> It is a smooth plate diamond bottom. Now that I've got that coming, what's next? My checklist is getting shorter. Maybe a Mazda chrome plate?



It looks to be right, a smooth plate diamond. I got four of these Fisher Tele's yesterday and they all have the smooth plates. not sure if all the Fishers by Tele have the smooth, but so far the ones I got have smooth.

I like to buy good tubes from GG, since she is good with communication and so far has sold me decent tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Jesstaa said:


> Just found a vid on youtube, you've probably all seen it already, but for those who haven't I thought it was pretty cool.
> Yeah, it's a power tube, but this thread gets more attention.
> 
> YouTube - Journey to the Center of a Tube



That's awesome. Very informative. Thanks for that post Jesstaa!


----------



## Jesstaa

Woah, Josh, hey man

No probs =P


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Jesstaa said:


> Woah, Josh, hey man
> 
> No probs =P



Surprised I'm still breathing?  How are things down under mate?


----------



## Jesstaa

Eh, about to heat up -_-

And that guitar is tasty, if it were a dessert I'd eat it.
But it isn't a dessert, so I shall fap instead.


----------



## solarburn

Jesstaa said:


> What are you doing awake so early, Joe?



I stayed up late. On my days off from work.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Surprised I'm still breathing?  How are things down under mate?



Why howdy rowdy! You still play'n that beauty...luckee!(Napoleon Dynamite voice)

Good to see ya stopped in!


----------



## PaoloJM

Lads,
I figured this would be the best place to post this.

This is a tone test of a bunch of the main types of 12Ax7 type preamp valves from my little stash.

The clips are all recorded using my Harley Benton GA5 as it only uses one preamp valve so the tone of each should come across clear than if there were multiple preamp valves.

The clips are recorded with my USA Strat on the neck pick up straight to the HA GA5 => V30 speaker and close miked with a SM57 => MBox and ProTools.
No post EQ or effects are used.

With the volume at 10 you're hearing some farty blocking distortion. This was the first amp I modifyed, and at the time I figured any series grid resistance was taking away from valuable gain, so there's no grid stop at all between the two halves. Haven't had time to get back in there to sort it out.

I recorded each clip in the same format, volume at 5 followed by volume at 10 with some chords and single notes in each, to allow for easy comparison.
The power valve is a JJ84.

I haven't adjusted the volume between clips either to show relative volumes with the lower gain valves.

For some reason my JAN 57571, the NOS Mullard Yellow Label, NOS Mazda, NOS Sylvania and the Brimar wouldn't run in the HB.

The idea is to have a fair comparison for people to hear the differences from an independant source all recording under the exact same conditions and equipment.

Lemme whatcha think.

SoundClick artist: Preamp Valve Test - page with MP3 music downloads


----------



## ken361

PaoloJM said:


> Lads,
> I figured this would be the best place to post this.
> 
> This is a tone test of a bunch of the main types of 12Ax7 type preamp valves from my little stash.
> 
> The clips are all recorded using my Harley Benton GA5 as it only uses one preamp valve so the tone of each should come across clear than if there were multiple preamp valves.
> 
> The clips are recorded with my USA Strat on the neck pick up straight to the HA GA5 => V30 speaker and close miked with a SM57 => MBox and ProTools.
> No post EQ or effects are used.
> 
> With the volume at 10 you're hearing some farty blocking distortion. This was the first amp I modifyed, and at the time I figured any series grid resistance was taking away from valuable gain, so there's no grid stop at all between the two halves. Haven't had time to get back in there to sort it out.
> 
> I recorded each clip in the same format, volume at 5 followed by volume at 10 with some chords and single notes in each, to allow for easy comparison.
> The power valve is a JJ84.
> 
> I haven't adjusted the volume between clips either to show relative volumes with the lower gain valves.
> 
> For some reason my JAN 57571, the NOS Mullard Yellow Label, NOS Mazda, NOS Sylvania and the Brimar wouldn't run in the HB.
> 
> The idea is to have a fair comparison for people to hear the differences from an independant source all recording under the exact same conditions and equipment.
> 
> Lemme whatcha think.
> 
> SoundClick artist: Preamp Valve Test - page with MP3 music downloads



kinda digging the mullard, like to hear a RFT though. Good sounds clips bro!


----------



## rockinr0ll

THANK YOU, I have been waiting for someone to do this!

Mullard - Good
Chinese - Meh
EH 12AT7 - Great
EH - Not as good as the Mullard
Harma - Liked the clean (any more info on this tube?)
JJ 12AT7 - Liked the EH better
NEC - nice
(?) - sounds alright
12AU7 - nice (for lower gain)
Pinnacle - nice (like a lot actually)
Sovtek - not a fan of these
Tongsol - overrated

Winners:

Mullard
EH
Pinnacle

Losers:

Chinese
JJ
Sovtek

All the others where alright.


----------



## rockinr0ll

It's a shame you couldn't get the other tubes to work because those are some real "winners".


----------



## solarburn

PaoloJM said:


> Lads,
> I figured this would be the best place to post this.
> 
> This is a tone test of a bunch of the main types of 12Ax7 type preamp valves from my little stash.
> 
> The clips are all recorded using my Harley Benton GA5 as it only uses one preamp valve so the tone of each should come across clear than if there were multiple preamp valves.
> 
> The clips are recorded with my USA Strat on the neck pick up straight to the HA GA5 => V30 speaker and close miked with a SM57 => MBox and ProTools.
> No post EQ or effects are used.
> 
> With the volume at 10 you're hearing some farty blocking distortion. This was the first amp I modifyed, and at the time I figured any series grid resistance was taking away from valuable gain, so there's no grid stop at all between the two halves. Haven't had time to get back in there to sort it out.
> 
> I recorded each clip in the same format, volume at 5 followed by volume at 10 with some chords and single notes in each, to allow for easy comparison.
> The power valve is a JJ84.
> 
> I haven't adjusted the volume between clips either to show relative volumes with the lower gain valves.
> 
> For some reason my JAN 57571, the NOS Mullard Yellow Label, NOS Mazda, NOS Sylvania and the Brimar wouldn't run in the HB.
> 
> The idea is to have a fair comparison for people to hear the differences from an independant source all recording under the exact same conditions and equipment.
> 
> Lemme whatcha think.
> 
> SoundClick artist: Preamp Valve Test - page with MP3 music downloads



I can make out differences on the clean clips but even the clean is buried/clipping a bit. Can you get it more open and upfront(increase presence)sounding?

The overdriven clips are just horrible for gauging anything as it is so farty sounding.

Love the idea but need a much clearer platform to illustrate the character these tubes offer. I use clean to midgain tones to gauge mine, without the fuzz though.

I understand having things set the same and giving a fair test all around but the soundfield/recording you have is flubby/hairy to me. Even the clean has hair on it hehe.


----------



## rockinr0ll

It's just because the amp he is using is a small Harley GA5. I think the demo got the point across beautifully just give it time and you will here the comparisons of the tube (not the amp).


----------



## solarburn

rockinr0ll said:


> It's just because the amp he is using is a small Harley GA5. I think the demo got the point across beautifully just give it time and you will here the comparisons of the tube (not the amp).



I can't make out anything on the overdriven clips because its too hairy and fuzzed out. Makes it too hard for my ears to make anything out. The cleans I can because there is not as much hair in the way.

If it works for you more power to ya. Maybe my ears are as bad as my eyes hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Ahh, I stayed up late last night, but obviously not late enough. I thought everybody had gone to bed.*


----------



## rockinr0ll

lol Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Theres the Brimar( relabeled Mullard) on the left and the Yellow plate Mullard on the right.
> 
> They are the same. The Brimar even has a Blackburn code.
> 
> Just because it had brimar on it was £7 and sounds awesome!
> 
> Alex



*Well that's great news since Jae (I believe) asked me in a prior post about this. Apparently my answer was correct. Mullard did make tubes for Brimar. You just proved it right here. Also, they were making tubes for Brimar (1961) before the big collapse of the tube industry. Very interesting.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Can you guys help me out with these tubes? I have two Sonotone-branded ECC83 tubes. I've always assumed they were RCA because they have a side getter, but they don't look like my RCA 12AU7A cleartops in their construction, and there is a little bit of flash in the top of the tubes. The plates look exactly like my 1966 Mullard, but they don't flash. They also don't have a box around the 12AX7A at the top of the tube like RCA tubes do. I know that a lot of Sonotone stuff is from Germany, but these are labled "Made in USA". Here's the best picture I could get. The bottom of the tube appears to have the number "14" embossed, with radial lines coming from the center. These pics are of the same tube. The one on the right is the side with the getter flash, but it didn't come through good in the pic. I don't think they look much like RCAs, but they may be.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was doing an inventory of my main tone tubes. I have two RCA 12BZ7s, and i really don't need both. These are NOS and aren't microphonic. If anyone wants one of them, PM me.



*I will try and do some research on these. However, as previously stated, it can say, "Made in USA" on the tube, but it can be made somewhere else. This went on for at least six years. I've talked about this before. I have RCA Mullards and they say, "Made in USA" on the box and "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube. Tricky dicks.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Holy Cow! SolarBurn has a new avatar and it is a scorcher. Makes me feel like I'm living back in Phoenix. That's what the sun looks like there in the summer time. I need something cool to drink.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> That's awesome. Very informative. Thanks for that post Jesstaa!



*Guess I shouldn't have stayed up late as I see you were up early. Good to hear from you again and I hope we see more of you. Your online bud, Marty.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Holy Cow! SolarBurn has a new avatar and it is a scorcher. Makes me feel like I'm living back in Phoenix. That's what the sun looks like there in the summer time. I need something cool to drink.*



I need more sun working the graveyard shift.

Hope no one gets sunburned hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Sonotone info:*

*By the 1950's Sonotone was making over 400 different tubes. They were popular receiving tubes ranging all the way from 0Z4 to 7199's. They also sold European EL, EM, EZ etc. In addition, there were special purpose tubes made for the Signal Corps at Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey. The automated tube manufacturing equipment was located at the Elmsford factory. The progressive line was circular, about 20 feet in diameter. There were many gas jets at each step to heat the glass and shape it. It was very impressive to watch. Some of the tubes were made by other manufacturers with the Sonotone name on them. Some were made by Telefunken, Mullard and Amperex. An economy line was later introduced with tubes made in Japan and were sold in green boxes. By the mid-sixties, tube sales decreased with the advancement of transistors. The tube manufacturing equipment was sold, and hearing aid production was moved from Main Street in White Plains, a few miles away, to the Elmsford plant. *

*I just did some extensive researching and the only side getter that I can find by RCA is a "Clear Top" 12AU7. Have you seen or heard of RCA 12AX7A's with a side getter? If so, they must be rare. I don't see any side getters by Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken. Sonotone made their own tubes, so these could be original, side getter Sonotone's.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I need more sun working the graveyard shift.
> 
> Hope no one gets sunburned hehe.



*Yeah, something tells me you could get mighty pale working that late shift. Have you ever considered a tanning salon? SOLARBURN in a tanning salon. *


----------



## zimske

finally on the internet after a couple of days, so guys thanks for the IDing of my tubes. looks like a fine beginner's collection, two tungsrams and one rca 7025. 

the joys of rolling ensue.

[how much could i price these three in case i decide to let them go so i can get me some 5751's?]


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> finally on the internet after a couple of days, so guys thanks for the IDing of my tubes. looks like a fine beginner's collection, two tungsrams and one rca 7025.
> 
> the joys of rolling ensue.
> 
> [how much could i price these three in case i decide to let them go so i can get me some 5751's?]



*The Tungsrams are high quality tubes, but they are not commanding very high prices. I believe if you go back a few pages, RATT posted how he sold some on EBAY and he didn't make much off of them at all. 

My advice is to keep them and use them.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Yeah, something tells me you could get mighty pale working that late shift. Have you ever considered a tanning salon? SOLARBURN in a tanning salon. *



Massage parlor yes. Tanning bed? Nah. I'd sit in the lobby and hottie watch though...


----------



## zimske

MartyStrat54 said:


> *The Tungsrams are high quality tubes, but they are not commanding very high prices. I believe if you go back a few pages, RATT posted how he sold some on EBAY and he didn't make much off of them at all.
> 
> My advice is to keep them and use them.*



yeah, probably will do just that. 

which of these are "darker" tungsrams or 7025's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Massage parlor yes. Tanning bed? Nah. I'd sit in the lobby and hottie watch though...



*Well I know that you have been over to the Noobs thread and I know you saw that huge thing that was posted. Well, sitting at a tanning salon, that's what you would see. Maybe 10 per cent of their business is some hotties. 90 per cent is huge, massive women that the tanning beds cannot contain...so they do one half at a time. Yummy!*

*This post has nothing to do with tubes and may be in conflict with the thoughts of the Preamp Tube Administration, or PTA.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

zimske said:


> yeah, probably will do just that.
> 
> which of these are "darker" tungsrams or 7025's?



*The RCA 7025 is a cleaner, tighter sounding tube IMO. The Tungsrams have somewhat of a Mullard sound. They tend to breakup when driven hard. I wouldn't say they are a dark tube.

Maybe RATT can pipe in on this since he ran some in his amp.*


----------



## racko7566

Cant wait till my tubes get here from Marty, I'm looking forward to joining in on the rolling tubes and joining in discussions. I got an Amperex and a Raytheon blackplate for v1 and v2. Does anyone else have these in v1 and v2? And if so what do you think of this combination?


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Cant wait till my tubes get here from Marty, I'm looking forward to joining in on the rolling tubes and joining in discussions. I got an Amperex and a Raytheon blackplate for v1 and v2. Does anyone else have these in v1 and v2? And if so what do you think of this combination?



What amp are you putting them in?

Those are great tubes. I haven't ran them in that combination. BP's work well in my DSL. Very nice.


----------



## racko7566

Sorry, It's a DSL 100 all stock now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Sorry, It's a DSL 100 all stock now.



*Hey, I left you a PM. Get back to me when you can.*


----------



## racko7566

Well, my tubes are in from Marty. So guess what ill be doing for the rest of the night  
2 quick questions for you guys, Do I have to line up the spot thats missing a pin in the same spot that was blank? And do you rebias after pre amp changes? thanx, Racko


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Well, my tubes are in from Marty. So guess what ill be doing for the rest of the night
> 2 quick questions for you guys, Do I have to line up the spot thats missing a pin in the same spot that was blank? And do you rebias after pre amp changes? thanx, Racko



Yes. Its the only way it will fit in. No biasing of preamps. Only power tubes.


----------



## solarburn

Work them preamp tubes in carefully. Don't be ham fisted hehe.


----------



## racko7566

Wasn't sure if changes in curcuit would effect power end. Thanks Solar. I just looked directly at you, now im blind!!! yet still typing LOL


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Wasn't sure if changes in curcuit would effect power end. Thanks Solar. I just looked directly at you, now im blind!!! yet still typing LOL


----------



## solarburn

I just wanted to remind you guyz that in a couple of years I will be playing this:

Buy Marshall JTM45 Amp Head | Tube Amp Heads | Musician's Friend


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I just wanted to remind you guyz that in a couple of years I will be playing this:
> 
> Buy Marshall JTM45 Amp Head | Tube Amp Heads | Musician's Friend



*Yeah, yeah and I'll be playing a Twister F3.

I didn't know that they are actually using a GZ34 tube rectifier in the JTM. That's cool.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*RATT...*

*Did the testing on the RFT 7025A. Mine read 18-17. So it is on its last leg. I mean it could go for a while until the heaters go. Once they get down to numbers like this, it is hard to estimate what the gain factor is. I'm thinking in the 5751 range, or about 70.

Might work fine in V1 for a smoother sound.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Got the dope from Edicron about the EL34 tubes. Three are RFT's and two of them were made in 1984 and one was made in 1988. The other one is a Russian tube made to RFT specifications from the plant that now makes EH (New Sensor).

The only problem with that newer one is that 1995 was a horrible year for EL34's. This is why Marshall went with the 220K grid stoppers on their amps. 

As I said, I'm glad I only had $50 in this.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Got the dope from Edicron about the EL34 tubes. Three are RFT's and two of them were made in 1984 and one was made in 1988. The other one is a Russian tube made to RFT specifications from the plant that now makes EH (New Sensor).
> 
> The only problem with that newer one is that 1995 was a horrible year for EL34's. This is why Marshall went with the 220K grid stoppers on their amps.
> 
> As I said, I'm glad I only had $50 in this.*



That's it then. Glad you were able to find out though so you don't hurt your amp. You can make some money back on a pair eh if you want to down the road.

Gotta go to work. Talk to ya's later!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Sonotone info:*
> 
> *By the 1950's Sonotone was making over 400 different tubes. They were popular receiving tubes ranging all the way from 0Z4 to 7199's. They also sold European EL, EM, EZ etc. In addition, there were special purpose tubes made for the Signal Corps at Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey. The automated tube manufacturing equipment was located at the Elmsford factory. The progressive line was circular, about 20 feet in diameter. There were many gas jets at each step to heat the glass and shape it. It was very impressive to watch. Some of the tubes were made by other manufacturers with the Sonotone name on them. Some were made by Telefunken, Mullard and Amperex. An economy line was later introduced with tubes made in Japan and were sold in green boxes. By the mid-sixties, tube sales decreased with the advancement of transistors. The tube manufacturing equipment was sold, and hearing aid production was moved from Main Street in White Plains, a few miles away, to the Elmsford plant. *
> 
> *I just did some extensive researching and the only side getter that I can find by RCA is a "Clear Top" 12AU7. Have you seen or heard of RCA 12AX7A's with a side getter? If so, they must be rare. I don't see any side getters by Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken. Sonotone made their own tubes, so these could be original, side getter Sonotone's.*



Here's the only thing I've found that's similar. This is supposed to be an RCA 7025. The tube name is in a little rectangle like every other RCA I've seen, and the getter flash is in the right place. If these Sonotones are RCA, why does the 12AX7A not look right?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *RATT...*
> 
> *Did the testing on the RFT 7025A. Mine read 18-17. So it is on its last leg. I mean it could go for a while until the heaters go. Once they get down to numbers like this, it is hard to estimate what the gain factor is. I'm thinking in the 5751 range, or about 70.
> 
> Might work fine in V1 for a smoother sound.*



I'm sorry, Marty. I thought I was sending you a good tube. I guess the other one is probably the same. The seller tested them as identical. You want the extra RCA 12BZ7 instead?


----------



## racko7566

Well got my new tubes in and it sounds good but now its really noisy at low and no volume. Is that normal for higher gain tubes? When I tap on each tube they dont make any loud popping noises, but the BP in v2 rings real loud through the speaker like a bell chime when I tap it. v4 also chimes when tapped. v1 and v3 make no noise. Should I move them around and see what happens or is it normal. 

Thanks, Racko.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Well got my new tubes in and it sounds good but now its really noisy at low and no volume. Is that normal for higher gain tubes? When I tap on each tube they dont make any loud popping noises, but the BP in v2 rings real loud through the speaker like a bell chime when I tap it. v4 also chimes when tapped. v1 and v3 make no noise. Should I move them around and see what happens or is it normal.
> 
> Thanks, Racko.



Is it like this:


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM2qWZYbInI&feature=related]YouTube - What Is A Microphonic Tube?[/ame]

This is what my JJ 803S sounded like when it went.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmFPTSXWOg0&feature=related[/ame]


----------



## racko7566

Yea I kinda got both sounds. Im gonna roll them around when I get off work. Thanks Solar


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Here's the only thing I've found that's similar. This is supposed to be an RCA 7025. The tube name is in a little rectangle like every other RCA I've seen, and the getter flash is in the right place. If these Sonotones are RCA, why does the 12AX7A not look right?
> 
> *The thing is, the Sonotones do not have the RCA marking on them. They can't be RCA. Every tube that RCA made for someone else still had the flattened octagon box on the tube.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm sorry, Marty. I thought I was sending you a good tube. I guess the other one is probably the same. The seller tested them as identical. You want the extra RCA 12BZ7 instead?



*No need to do that. I'd rather see someone else take the BZ7.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Well got my new tubes in and it sounds good but now its really noisy at low and no volume. Is that normal for higher gain tubes? When I tap on each tube they dont make any loud popping noises, but the BP in v2 rings real loud through the speaker like a bell chime when I tap it. v4 also chimes when tapped. v1 and v3 make no noise. Should I move them around and see what happens or is it normal.
> 
> Thanks, Racko.



*Do you have any of your old tubes that you can do a one on one test with each position? It sounds like you may have some of your original tubes that are bad. However, if the BP is microphonic, send it back and I'll replace it.*


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Got the dope from Edicron about the EL34 tubes. Three are RFT's and two of them were made in 1984 and one was made in 1988. The other one is a Russian tube made to RFT specifications from the plant that now makes EH (New Sensor).
> 
> The only problem with that newer one is that 1995 was a horrible year for EL34's. This is why Marshall went with the 220K grid stoppers on their amps.
> 
> As I said, I'm glad I only had $50 in this.*



Remember the tube I posted on here awile back that looked like an RFT that was labeled as a Sovtek EL34G? That was one of the ones you're describing. They even claim to have been made on the old RFT equipment. I have four of them that I pulled from my old Laney Pro Tube head.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Remember the tube I posted on here awile back that looked like an RFT that was labeled as a Sovtek EL34G? That was one of the ones you're describing. They even claim to have been made on the old RFT equipment. I have four of them that I pulled from my old Laney Pro Tube head.



*Well, at least they all match power wise and I got the one pair that I can resell as they are RFT's. I hate when I end up with odd amounts of tubes. I mean it is hard to sell one RFT tube, unless you know it will bias up. The Russian "RFT" looks really good, but it's not an RFT.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*RATT...*

*What do you think about this? Running an RFT EL34 in one slot and a Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7 in the other slot. Electronically, they are the same, but tone wise they are not. I'll have to try this, as I have an RFT EL34 that tests 88 and also a Fat Boy that tests 88. This could be interesting.

They might combine their mojo and get some mojonation going on.*


----------



## racko7566

Okay Marty heres what I'm gonna do. I put all the old tubes back in and the chiming and noise have stopped. Now, can I just try all the tubes you sent me in one spot like v2 and see which is cause, or is there better way? And sorry for all the dumb ass questions I'm a noob to tube amps except for my valve jr. which is way simple. Another quick one, what is the difference between the BP and the two Baldwin tubes for v3 and v4? They are identical in color and construction. I did notice the difference in the Amperex construction.

Thanks for your wisdom guys, this is fun experimenting


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Okay Marty heres what I'm gonna do. I put all the old tubes back in and the chiming and noise have stopped. Now, can I just try all the tubes you sent me in one spot like v2 and see which is cause, or is there better way? And sorry for all the dumb ass questions I'm a noob to tube amps except for my valve jr. which is way simple. Another quick one, what is the difference between the BP and the two Baldwin tubes for v3 and v4? They are identical in color and construction. I did notice the difference in the Amperex construction.
> 
> Thanks for your wisdom guys, this is fun experimenting



Yes, that will work. Try the tubes I sent you one at a time in V2. I've been lucky and haven't run into to many microphonic tubes. It would be really against the odds if you had more than one bad tube. Let me know and we can get it taken care of.

The Black Plate should have shiny Black Plates. The Sylvania's are Gray Plates.


----------



## racko7566

Im testing them now. other than the fisher/amperex. all 3 of the others are identical grey. maybe accidentally sent the wrong one. Ill take a pic and post it up for you. Racko


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *RATT...*
> 
> *What do you think about this? Running an RFT EL34 in one slot and a Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7 in the other slot. Electronically, they are the same, but tone wise they are not. I'll have to try this, as I have an RFT EL34 that tests 88 and also a Fat Boy that tests 88. This could be interesting.
> 
> They might combine their mojo and get some mojonation going on.*



I'm happy where I'm at right now. I tried to buy a set of 6CA7's from a dude awhile back but they were gone before I got back to him. By all means give it a try and let us know what you think.

Do you remember the Groove Tubes 6CA7? It was American made (Kentucky?) on old Sylvania patterns and machines. AFAIK they stopped making them in 2006. I'd like to land a set of those just to see how they sound.


----------



## racko7566

Her are the ones you sent me Marty.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Her are the ones you sent me Marty.



The BP is to the far right. Take another pic and put it right in front so my eyes quit play'n tricks on me.


----------



## racko7566

thats the one boxed as amperex. I got an amperex, a bp, and two slvannia grey plates. The one boxed bp is the far left.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> thats the one boxed as amperex. I got an amperex, a bp, and two slvannia grey plates. The one boxed bp is the far left.



I'm looking at them now and my eyes are seeing shades of grey and black. Hopefully someone with better eyes looking at pics can tell. I can see the differences with mine when I'm holding it and looking at it.


----------



## racko7566

Heres another pic Solar. Dont look at yourself before looking at these or youll be blinded. hehehehehe


----------



## racko7566

Sorry for all the big pic tube porn but I cant help my self they look so cool.


----------



## Jae

Ok. I was rummaging through a bunch of tubes I've been acquiring for the past month and I've put them in boxes. I'm not bragging, but just wanted to show you how tube crazy I was for the past month. 






GE and RCA's on the leftmost
Second are the Telefunkens (99% smooth plate)
Sylvanias
Mullards

All 12ax7s.

I'm sure some of you have lots and lots, but here is another tube whore.


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> Ok. I was rummaging through a bunch of tubes I've been acquiring for the past month and I've put them in boxes. I'm not bragging, but just wanted to show you how tube crazy I was for the past month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GE and RCA's on the leftmost
> Second are the Telefunkens (99% smooth plate)
> Sylvanias
> Mullards
> 
> All 12ax7s.
> 
> I'm sure some of you have lots and lots, but here is another tube whore.



That's a nice lil' lot Jae.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Heres another pic Solar. Dont look at yourself before looking at these or youll be blinded. hehehehehe
> 
> Yeah I can make those out now. Just PM Marty.


----------



## PaoloJM

Jae said:


> Ok. I was rummaging through a bunch of tubes I've been acquiring for the past month and I've put them in boxes. I'm not bragging, but just wanted to show you how tube crazy I was for the past month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GE and RCA's on the leftmost
> Second are the Telefunkens (99% smooth plate)
> Sylvanias
> Mullards
> 
> All 12ax7s.
> 
> I'm sure some of you have lots and lots, but here is another tube whore.



 
Wow, what I wouldn't give....


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That's a nice lil' lot Jae.



*All those tubes represents a lot of cash. Just think about it? Why you could own a JTM45 for what Jae has in those tubes.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *All those tubes represents a lot of cash. Just think about it? Why you could own a JTM45 for what Jae has in those tubes.*



Damn...

Oh that reminds me I've got to start saving...


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> *All those tubes represents a lot of cash. Just think about it? Why you could own a JTM45 for what Jae has in those tubes.*



Maybe I've just been spending waaaaay too much in just gear and equipment. This is actually NOT a good thing believe me. This is impulse buying at it's worst. It's almost like gambling my money away in my case. As for everyone else on this thread they seem to buy tubes and equipment sparingly and with some care. Me? I'm just spending lavishly. NOT a good thing.

About the JTM45? I don't need another amp either. I already have a '67, '72 Superlead. A 1987x Plexi, JMP Master 2204, Fender Twin Reverb and a bunch of other amps. 

I'm glad that from now on I'm NOT going to spend any more on gear. No more tubes and gear for the next while. Now if you can see my problem.


----------



## Jae

It's about time I made a sig for myself, instead of explaining all the time what my gear is! 
whew!


----------



## solarburn

Jae said:


> It's about time I made a sig for myself, instead of explaining all the time what my gear is!
> whew!



You've got some nice Marshall's my friend. Yes indeed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jae said:


> It's about time I made a sig for myself, instead of explaining all the time what my gear is!
> whew!



*Joe, this guy is loaded. You should think about dating him and maybe he would buy you that JTM45?*


----------



## Jesstaa

Jae said:


> Maybe I've just been spending waaaaay too much in just gear and equipment. This is actually NOT a good thing believe me. This is impulse buying at it's worst. It's almost like gambling my money away in my case. As for everyone else on this thread they seem to buy tubes and equipment sparingly and with some care. Me? I'm just spending lavishly. NOT a good thing.
> 
> About the JTM45? I don't need another amp either. I already have a '67, '72 Superlead. A 1987x Plexi, JMP Master 2204, Fender Twin Reverb and a bunch of other amps.
> 
> I'm glad that from now on I'm NOT going to spend any more on gear. No more tubes and gear for the next while. Now if you can see my problem.



Pics or you just have a couple of old MGs and a bunch of tubes.



Well, would you look at that, 700 posts. IT seems like only yesterday I was looking at this forum like "Lol, Marshalls xD"


----------



## Jae

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Joe, this guy is loaded. You should think about dating him and maybe he would buy you that JTM45?*



Actually, to be quite honest I'm not loaded at all. I just spent every last penny on gear. Thanks for the compliment though.


----------



## Jae

Jesstaa said:


> Pics or you just have a couple of old MGs and a bunch of tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, would you look at that, 700 posts. IT seems like only yesterday I was looking at this forum like "Lol, Marshalls xD"



You're right. I'll post some pics somewhere.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Joe, this guy is loaded. You should think about dating him and maybe he would buy you that JTM45?*



That's all I need...a Sugar Daddy!:eek2:

I want some of that sugar on the BooBs thread...yummy.(Fatty's & Rails no spank you!)


----------



## RiverRatt

Got my little Crate 5 watt combo going. It's a hot little amp. It doesn't seem to care what tubes you throw in it, either. I tried the Mullard ECC83 and a Sylvania 6BQ5 and I couldn't tell that they made much difference. I ended up with a Shugang EL84 and a Tung Sol RI in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Got my little Crate 5 watt combo going. It's a hot little amp. It doesn't seem to care what tubes you throw in it, either. I tried the Mullard ECC83 and a Sylvania 6BQ5 and I couldn't tell that they made much difference. I ended up with a Shugang EL84 and a Tung Sol RI in it.



*I would say that's a good thing. An amp that sounds good no matter what you put in it. I want to say "Shugang" just once. It's sounds like shawang.



1600*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Joe...what we were talking about. Here are some Ei 6CA7's in Taiwan and they want $250 for them. You can get Fat Boy Sylvania's for that.*

4Pcs. EI 6CA7 / EL34 OO Getter. - eBay (item 290355205932 end time Oct-30-09 19:25:49 PDT)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Joe...what we were talking about. Here are some Ei 6CA7's in Taiwan and they want $250 for them. You can get Fat Boy Sylvania's for that.*
> 
> 4Pcs. EI 6CA7 / EL34 OO Getter. - eBay (item 290355205932 end time Oct-30-09 19:25:49 PDT)



Nice...and spendy. That's why I was looking at the EH's version. Its doable for me. The only thing is I don't know how reliable they are. The description given says they are a tough tube. I haven't made my mind up but it may be an experiment to do just to see unless I here some bad shit about the tubes.

I PM'd you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> *RATT...*
> 
> *What do you think about this? Running an RFT EL34 in one slot and a Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7 in the other slot. Electronically, they are the same, but tone wise they are not. I'll have to try this, as I have an RFT EL34 that tests 88 and also a Fat Boy that tests 88. This could be interesting.
> 
> They might combine their mojo and get some mojonation going on.*



Well, I did it and it worked just fine. It gave the top end a little more sparkle. The power chords were very fat, as both tubes do have good bottom end. Oh, BTW, this is a 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boy and a "Mullard" EL34 in one of my 602's. Both tubes tested the same and they biased right up with just the one bias trim pot. (You lucky DSL50 guys have two trim pots.) I guess I'll leave them in there for a while and see if I'm still liking it this weekend. 

I would have to say it is sort of like pairing V1 and V2. In this arrangement, the Mullard gets the first part of the signal and then the Sylvania. So the Mullard's tonal characteristics are there "first" and then it goes into the cleaner sound of the Fat Boy. I guess just like V1 and V2, you could swap them around and see if that sounds different or better.

Time Warp-I swapped the tubes around and it does make a difference, especially on the Clean channel. With the Fat Boy in there first and the Mullard on the negative swing of the power cycle, it is a cleaner, tighter sound. The Sylvania has now become like V1 and it's flavor is dominant.

Now you might ask, "Try two Fat Boys." Well I can't. This pair I bought I got a bad deal. They were sold untested and one reads 79 and the other 88. You could probably bias them up in a DSL50. I don't know how wide a swing the amp will tolerate, but I don't like to go more than 8 points between tubes. 

So this is sort of fascinating. That the tube on the positive side of the power cycle is like V1 and the characteristics of the negative side of the power cycle is like V2. The negative side adds to the power, but the flavor is stronger coming from the tube first in line with the power cycle.

I had PM'd JOE about Steelhorse's amp that runs the KT66's and the KT88's. He is getting flavor from two completely different sounding tubes. With the EL34 and the 6CA7, they are both electronically the same...pin for pin. However, even though this is true, they do not sound the same. A 6CA7 is more like a 6L6GC in sound. I told JOE that putting 6CA7's in your amp was a quick way to get the KT88 sound. No worries about the biasing as it will bias right up. 

How's that for some tube info?


----------



## Bobbo




----------



## MartyStrat54

*Oh no. An ad disguised as a post. Please don't do it here. *


----------



## solarburn

:eek2:


----------



## Bobbo

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Oh no. An ad disguised as a post. Please don't do it here. *



*How do you figure it's an add ??? What am I selling ??? Ehh ??? I just happen to really like tubes !!!!!!!!!!!!! adouchebagsayswhat .............. *


----------



## Bobbo




----------



## Bobbo




----------



## Bobbo




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## Bobbo




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## Bobbo




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## Bobbo




----------



## MartyStrat54

*You know, some of those photos you have posted many times before, here and on the other forums you have been kicked off of. You own any of these tubes, or are these just stock shots? Can you talk the specifics about them? Without cheating online, tell me about the 12AD6. What is it? When and by whom was it made?

whoistheolddouchebag 

Oh, we have a new moderator here that is a lot different than Flick 'O Flash. If you want to get obnoxious and fly off the handle, I "will" treat you as SPAM.*


----------



## jupiter89

I really got into the tube thread and learned a lot last week. So here I come back and I see this kind of crap going on. Sounds like an unscrupulous competitor. 
I wanted to add a little bit more to my minimal but slowly growing knowledge (and new fascination) on tubes and ask a simple question. When I asked what PI stands for (in V1 position) I was told it is a phase inverter. What actually does that mean as far as why and what happens to a signal at this point ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

jupiter89 said:


> I really got into the tube thread and learned a lot last week. So here I come back and I see this kind of crap going on. Sounds like an unscrupulous competitor.
> I wanted to add a little bit more to my minimal but slowly growing knowledge (and new fascination) on tubes and ask a simple question. When I asked what PI stands for (in V1 position) I was told it is a phase inverter. What actually does that mean as far as why and what happens to a signal at this point ?



*I think you mean V4. I would answer for you, but instead I will turn it over to BOBBO. He can tell you. Bobbo, showtime...you're on. Anyone see Bobbo?*


----------



## jupiter89

Oops - You're right, I did mean V4 = PI. Guess Bobbo is researching. Can't wait that long Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

jupiter89 said:


> Oops - You're right, I did mean V4 = PI. Guess Bobbo is researching. Can't wait that long Marty.



I took care of you and sent you a PM.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bobbo said:


>



That's one of greengirl's pics. I recognize the background. Wish I had won them, I'll bet they're nice.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, BTW, this is a 6CA7 Sylvania Fat Boy and a "Mullard" EL34 in one of my 602's.


 

Did anyone know about the Groove Tube 6CA7's that were made in the USA for a brief period? They were supposedly made on Sylvania equipment. This is the LAST time I'm going to ask about these tubes - I promise. 



> So this is sort of fascinating. That the tube on the positive side of the power cycle is like V1 and the characteristics of the negative side of the power cycle is like V2. The negative side adds to the power, but the flavor is stronger coming from the tube first in line with the power cycle.
> How's that for some tube info?



I'm not buying into this, mainly because I can't afford to buy into this. I could tell you what a cheap Russian EL34 sounds like paired with an RFT.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, you might want to get that Amperex warmed up. I didn't find any tubes during this Saturday's search, but I found a guy who has a "thrift store" (indoor junkyard) and he was cleaning his place out Saturday. I found TWO DOD R-845 single rack space spring reverb units, with part of the rack still attached. I picked up the both of them for $10, used a little contact cleaner on them, and they are noise-free and swwweeeeetttt. I think I can turn a slight profit on them. What's next after Amperex?


----------



## MartyStrat54

riverratt said:


> hey marty, you might want to get that amperex warmed up. I didn't find any tubes during this saturday's search, but i found a guy who has a "thrift store" (indoor junkyard) and he was cleaning his place out saturday. I found two dod r-845 single rack space spring reverb units, with part of the rack still attached. I picked up the both of them for $10, used a little contact cleaner on them, and they are noise-free and swwweeeeetttt. I think i can turn a slight profit on them. What's next after amperex?



****telefunken****


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did anyone know about the Groove Tube 6CA7's that were made in the USA for a brief period? They were supposedly made on Sylvania equipment. This is the LAST time I'm going to ask about these tubes - I promise.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not buying into this, mainly because I can't afford to buy into this. I could tell you what a cheap Russian EL34 sounds like paired with an RFT.



*Two things. First, is the Groove Tube 6CA7's the one where the Sylvania equipment was shipped over to Russia? Supposedly the tubes were made in the early 90's (since Sylvania was bought out by Philips in 1984 and Philips made the tubes until 1988). Although these tubes were made on Sylvania equipment, they were never regarded as being as good as a Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7. I will try to do a little more research on this to see if I can unravel it.*

*Second. I'm am not saying that there is this dramatic change in sound when you switch two different power tubes around. However, there is a change and when I reversed the tubes the clean channel sounded different. Not a huge change, but different. Some people might not be able to hear any difference. My main point is overall, the amp sounds different with a 6CA7 and an EL34 compared to the amp with two EL34's.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> That's one of greengirl's pics. I recognize the background. Wish I had won them, I'll bet they're nice.



*Yeah, all of his pic's are rip-off's. He posted some pic's on this thread a long time ago and he posted the same pics again. Flick'OFlash thought he was funny and let him post a whole bunch of stuff and then I got a hold of ALEX about it. Alex took all of his posts off and I had hoped he would move on. He has been thrown off several forums. I already talked to Joe about it. If it continues I will PM you with our solution.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did anyone know about the Groove Tube 6CA7's that were made in the USA for a brief period? They were supposedly made on Sylvania equipment. This is the LAST time I'm going to ask about these tubes - I promise.



Did some far reaching online searching and here are some bits I came up with. First piece is out of MIX magazine (online). According to them, the 6CA7's were made on GE equipment in the USA and the tube may of had a glitch (bug) in it. 

About the oddest tube of the bunch was the GT-6CA7-GE. Newly manufactured on former GE equipment (in the U.S.), as is the GT-6L6-GE, it had an odd overdrive artifact, a bug that became obvious during the bench tests. Interestingly enough, an NOS GE 6L6 did not do this, but an NOS Sylvania version did, so it's obviously not a new “bug,” but could very well be an amp/tube idiosyncrasy. This is a good excuse to introduce and explain the tests that generated the pictures.

The GTGE is still being made and was the tube used in VH I and VH II.

The GT6CA7GE is the classic American-style EL34 tube made in the exact likeness of the famed General Electric 6CA7 tube of the 60's. This was the tube we sold to Eddie Van Halen for his Marshalls used on the first two Van Halen albums (often cited for his best tone on record).

In 1998, Groove Tubes purchased from Richardson the original critical materials and machines GE used to produce both the GE6L6 and GE6CA7 (aka:EL34), along with the original production processing formulas. In other words, Groove Tubes was able to acquire the the recipe, the original ingredients and the kitchen too! The adventure had begun.

Next, several original GE vendors were enlisted to faithfully reproduce many of the internal components. For example, the company who made the original mica insulators has provided the identical part, on new tooling from original GE drawings. Also, the special plate designs are made on the same vintage 4 slide machines and are identical to the original parts, using the original GE plate material that is no longer in production. GT was able to purchased enough original GE plate material for many years of production. This special multi layered alloy formula appears a soft dull gray after heat processing and give this tube it's soft, warm tone...as well as contributing to it's superior power performance. While currently, some of the processing is located "off site" and will continue there until all processing clearances can be arranged for the San Fernando factory, eventually plans are to do all processing under the GT roof.

However, the internal content is now more than 90% USA origin (Incidentally, this content ratio is similar to to the original content of the GE tube as GE also used off site processing). It has been almost 4 years of hard work and significant financial investment in tooling and setup to be able to release the final product, but the wait was worth it.

*I had heard that GT was actually producing a 12AX7 in California. Apparently, they have been making a copy of a GE 6L6 and GE 6CA7 as well. This article is dated 1998. A lot can happen since then. I do know one thing, these tubes are available from GT regardless of where they are being made. 

Very interesting.*


----------



## Bobbo

RiverRatt said:


> That's one of greengirl's pics. I recognize the background. Wish I had won them, I'll bet they're nice.



*These Mullard's now reside in my 50 watt Marshall .. They sound good too !!!!!! *


----------



## Bobbo

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Yeah, all of his pic's are rip-off's. He posted some pic's on this thread a long time ago and he posted the same pics again. Flick'OFlash thought he was funny and let him post a whole bunch of stuff and then I got a hold of ALEX about it. Alex took all of his posts off and I had hoped he would move on. He has been thrown off several forums. I already talked to Joe about it. If it continues I will PM you with our solution.*



*I do not own everything I post pictures of ... But the majority of the tubes I post I own !!! *


----------



## solarburn

Hell Yeah Marty!!!!!

Happy B-Day! I wish that girl was there so you could lick the frosting off hehe!

My cyber drink is Crown Royal...straight of course.

In reality I'm having a nice tall glass of milk!

Let the partying continue with Gusto!

I got to crank my Marshall earlier. My salute to 2000 and your B-day!

Now if I could just get us some naughty girls...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dh9IJMM1r8g[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

I wanna lick the icing!

I'll lift a cold one in your direction. I'm making jambalaya and sipping on a New Belgium 1554. Crawfish and beer - it's like they were made for each other.

About the GTGE, I think they stopped making them in 2003 when they started working on the XF2 reissue. I could be wrong.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ****telefunken****



The Telefunken should be in tomorrow's mail.


----------



## ken361

happy b-day! man


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Thanks RATT, thanks KEN. I keep getting older, but I still do stupid things. Go figure.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I wanna lick the icing!
> 
> I'll lift a cold one in your direction. I'm making jambalaya and sipping on a New Belgium 1554. Crawfish and beer - it's like they were made for each other.
> 
> About the GTGE, I think they stopped making them in 2003 when they started working on the XF2 reissue. I could be wrong.



I haven't really ever followed GT. I just didn't like their marketing approach. If they had GE equipment and all the necessary vendors, why did they stop making their 6L6GE and 6CA7GE? That's dumb. Work on those two until you get it right. However, they jump off in another direction and think they are going to duplicate an xf2. That'll be the day.

*Marty reaches over to the table and takes a shot of Wild Turkey with a water chaser.*


----------



## solarburn

belch!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I wanna lick the icing!
> 
> I'll lift a cold one in your direction. I'm making jambalaya and sipping on a New Belgium 1554. Crawfish and beer - it's like they were made for each other.



Aren't you a little far north for the cajun cooking? I mean Arkansas does it, but Tennessee? The thing that grosses a lot of people out is the cooked poop in the tails. It looks like mustard and gets all over your mouth. Hmmm! Crayfish poop...mighty tasty. Oh and for you people getting ill, we have steak on the grill.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> belch!



*I was just going to do that and I will...*

*Beeelch!*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I was just going to do that and I will...*
> 
> *Beeelch!*



Did you like your dancing girls up above?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you like your dancing girls up above?



*Yeah that saved me from having to drive over to St. Joe (I'll do that tomorrow when I really party down. Might even go to one of the hot blues bars in KC and hang.

Yeah I just pour me a drink and hit the play button on the video and I feel like I in Phoenix at the Cheetah Men's Club.*


----------



## racko7566

Happy B-Day Marty, remember, your not old, your N.O.S.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Happy B-Day Marty, remember, your not old, your N.O.S.



*Thanks RACKO.*


----------



## jupiter89

Happy birthday Marty. Gosh I wish I was only 55 lol. The dancing babes got ALL my tubes hot !


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Aren't you a little far north for the cajun cooking? I mean Arkansas does it, but Tennessee? The thing that grosses a lot of people out is the cooked poop in the tails. It looks like mustard and gets all over your mouth. Hmmm! Crayfish poop...mighty tasty. Oh and for you people getting ill, we have steak on the grill.



I grew up watching Justin Wilson's cooking show on public TV. I would probably be laughed out of Louisiana for my Jambalaya. I use nice, clean Chinese crawfish tails from Walmart, and I dose it liberally with Yucatan Sunshine habanero sauce. We've got some real cajuns around here, too. Memphis is just up the river from the Big Easy. A lot of people displaced by Katrina moved up here. 

I've never used a Mullard XF2, but I do have a pair of the GTEL34M's. They were my favorites until I got the RFTs. They aren't a bad sounding EL34.


----------



## Adwex

Happy Birthday Marty!
I still have some of this left after a recent visit to the craft beer section, think I'll crack one open in your honor.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Thanks RATT, thanks KEN. I keep getting older, but I still do stupid things. Go figure.*



Listen to Neil Young's "Fuckin' Up". It's my theme song.


----------



## Procter2812

Happy birthday Marty!... have a good un!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Adwex said:


> Happy Birthday Marty!
> I still have some of this left after a recent visit to the craft beer section, think I'll crack one open in your honor.



*Thanks ADWEX. I love craft beer. In fact, about five or six years ago, I completely stopped drinking Bud, Coors and Miller. I just felt like they didn't cut it. In Phoenix, my favorite micro brewery/bar had one called "Three peat Wheat." A triple brewed wheat pilsner. That went down like mountain water. In KC, I go to a brew house bar that has one called "Moonbeam." It's a honey wheat lager that is mighty good.

It's good to know that you are a man of sophisticated tastes.*


----------



## thefyn

What is this thing all about:

Soldano Tube Amp Hot Mod HotMOD for Marshall Amps - eBay (item 170391667714 end time Oct-10-09 03:06:50 PDT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

thefyn said:


> What is this thing all about:
> 
> Soldano Tube Amp Hot Mod HotMOD for Marshall Amps - eBay (item 170391667714 end time Oct-10-09 03:06:50 PDT)



It is a great idea, but it didn't fly. This is actually a 12AX7 type tube with three gain stages instead of two. It was meant to be used in V2 of most amps. It will give you additional gain. The problem is that these are all used units being sold, as Soldano realized that it wasn't going to be the next big thing. The main roadblock is that what happens if you tune your amp's sound around this? Two years later it goes out. That's assuming a new one. On a used one there is no way to test that tube on a tester as it has three stages.

The best thing to do is use a hot banana in V2 and a tube distortion pedal. That is like adding two more gain stages in front of V1. 

It would be risky to buy one of these. You might think it is working and one of the stages could be out, but how would you know?

Here is some brief info about it. For more info you can Google or Dogpile.


Soldano Hot Mod Tube


----------



## solarburn

^ Interesting. First I've seen or heard about this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Hey Joe...got any belches left?

I'm getting ready to go out. Nothing like having your birthday fall on a Friday or Saturday night. Makes for a good partay. 

Yeah, those Soldano tubes were "hot" for about a year, but the gimmick wore off and people who bought them realized they weren't the answer to their tone. As I said, it is better to use conventional tubes and add more gain with an OD or distortion pedal. My Silver Dragon provides a huge amount of gain. Almost like having a V2-V1-V2 setup. We all know what happens when you hit V1 hard with a gain device.

The other side of the Soldano tube was that some were noisy. Unlike a 12AX7, you had no control over the added gain stage. It was on all of the time. You would be better off using a 12BZ7. (But they have a tendency to ring, ring, ring.) With the gain stage being on all of the time, your clean channel sounded like shit. It was a great idea if we all played balls to the wall all of the time.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Hey Joe...got any belches left?
> 
> I'm getting ready to go out. Nothing like having your birthday fall on a Friday or Saturday night. Makes for a good partay.
> 
> Yeah, those Soldano tubes were "hot" for about a year, but the gimmick wore off and people who bought them realized they weren't the answer to their tone. As I said, it is better to use conventional tubes and add more gain with an OD or distortion pedal. My Silver Dragon provides a huge amount of gain. Almost like having a V2-V1-V2 setup. We all know what happens when you hit V1 hard with a gain device.
> 
> The other side of the Soldano tube was that some were noisy. Unlike a 12AX7, you had no control over the added gain stage. It was on all of the time. You would be better off using a 12BZ7. (But they have a tendency to ring, ring, ring.) With the gain stage being on all of the time, your clean channel sounded like shit. It was a great idea if we all played balls to the wall all of the time.*



BELCH!

Knew there was one more in there...

Got me some pedals just for those special moments too. Pretty cool idea though. Nice try I guess.

Having the B-day on the weekend is killer. Tear it up man.


----------



## LosAngelesAceFace

I have a DSL401, I like the same basic sound you like. I've tried many tubes, and I could say the best for our situation would be the Tung-Sol. It get's very close to the Marshall sound, has more natural higher gain than a JJ, and since it has such short plates, it's perfect of a Marshall combo. I like the sound of the new Mullards better, but due to their long plates, it creates alot of micophonics in a combo, so i had to pull it out. The Tung-Sol just came the closest to that sound. I love using the clean channel more now since I've placed the tube in the V1 position. Now it has this great vintage roar.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Tung-Sol reissues are my favorite current production 12AX7 tubes. In this thread, you're going to get a lot of NOS recommendations, too. When Marty gets back to Earth, he'll probably have a whole line-up for you to try. A Raytheon black plate would be a good place to start. I've picked up several nice old tubes lately. I'm using a 1966 Mullard ECC83 in V1 and a Raytheon BP in V2 in my DSL50 and it does vintage roar and then some. You really owe it to yourself to give some old tubes a try if you're interested in improving your tone. 

My Telefunken should have come in the mail today... it didn't. I was hoping to get it this weekend when I could air it out good.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *
> The other side of the Soldano tube was that some were noisy. Unlike a 12AX7, you had no control over the added gain stage. It was on all of the time. You would be better off using a 12BZ7. (But they have a tendency to ring, ring, ring.) With the gain stage being on all of the time, your clean channel sounded like shit. It was a great idea if we all played balls to the wall all of the time.*



I have two RCA 12BZ7s that are quiet. I love what they do to the Ultra Gain channel, but like you said, you sacrifice some of the clean. You can get a 12BZ7 from Tube Depot for $8.95 - a helluva lot cheaper experiment than that Soldano gadget. They really have that hot-rodded JCM800 tone with the gain dimed, but they don't clean up well. If anyone wants one of my RCAs shoot me a PM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LosAngelesAceFace said:


> I have a DSL401, I like the same basic sound you like. I've tried many tubes, and I could say the best for our situation would be the Tung-Sol. It get's very close to the Marshall sound, has more natural higher gain than a JJ, and since it has such short plates, it's perfect of a Marshall combo. I like the sound of the new Mullards better, but due to their long plates, it creates alot of micophonics in a combo, so i had to pull it out. The Tung-Sol just came the closest to that sound. I love using the clean channel more now since I've placed the tube in the V1 position. Now it has this great vintage roar.



Welcome to the thread. If you are happy using current production (CP) tubes, I say go for it. As Ratt said, I will agree that the Tung-Sol is my favorite CP tube. The only problem is that "some" of the Tung-Sol's have been failing in V3. If you got one in there and it is working, great. Just keep in mind that it may fail due to the high voltages on the tube in that particular circuit. You can use a Mullard RI in there as it is not a gain stage and therefore less likely to hear any microphonics. "Or" you could get a NOS tube and stick it in V3 and not have to worry about it. You can pick up a single tube pretty cheap. However, if it was me, I would get two NOS tubes and put one in V1 and the other in V3. I would leave the Tung-Sol in V2. If you like that, then you could step up to a high gain NOS tube in V2. Here again, it could be a Sylvania tube. These are great tubes, they sound better than CP and they are affordable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Chug a lug, chug a lug...don't you know. Burns your belly nice and slow...chug a lug, chug a lug.*

*Still a little spacey and it is almost 6 PM. Boy it feels like a little man with a hammer is working the area from the back of my neck to between my ears. Beer and whiskey chasers. I hear a cowboy song coming on.*


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> The Tung-Sol reissues are my favorite current production 12AX7 tubes. In this thread, you're going to get a lot of NOS recommendations, too. When Marty gets back to Earth, he'll probably have a whole line-up for you to try. A Raytheon black plate would be a good place to start. I've picked up several nice old tubes lately. I'm using a 1966 Mullard ECC83 in V1 and a Raytheon BP in V2 in my DSL50 and it does vintage roar and then some. You really owe it to yourself to give some old tubes a try if you're interested in improving your tone.
> 
> My Telefunken should have come in the mail today... it didn't. I was hoping to get it this weekend when I could air it out good.



checkout the RFT nos, there pretty smooth!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> checkout the RFT nos, there pretty smooth!



I think most of us here on the thread have at least one RFT. And yes, they are a nice V1.


----------



## solarburn

I got a Penta Labs 12AX7 in place of the JJ803S that died on me in less than 4hrs. Just got it today. Any ways I rolled it in V1 "tube to tube" against the RFT I had in V1.

The RFT kicked its ass across all frequencies as well as response to picking dynamics, guitar roll off, pick up changes from bridge/middle to neck and had a more toneful gain. It cleaned the Chinese tube's clock on the clean channel.

IMO the Penta Lab would be fine for high gain. It did good there. For blues and rock it was mediocre to my ears. Not good, not bad. Usable.

This test was only in V1.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got a Penta Labs 12AX7 in place of the JJ803S that died on me in less than 4hrs. Just got it today. Any ways I rolled it in V1 "tube to tube" against the RFT I had in V1.
> 
> The RFT kicked its ass across all frequencies as well as response to picking dynamics, guitar roll off, pick up changes from bridge/middle to neck and had a more toneful gain. It cleaned the Chinese tube's clock on the clean channel.
> 
> IMO the Penta Lab would be fine for high gain. It did good there. For blues and rock it was mediocre to my ears. Not good, not bad. Usable.
> 
> This test was only in V1.



Hey solar wassup? was it a regular penta? If you bought it from doug he might take it back, I just sent back one of my M tubes. Doug is pretty cool for that!


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think most of us here on the thread have at least one RFT. And yes, they are a nice V1.



How do they sound next to a Mullard? since I dont have one yet?


----------



## RiverRatt

My short experience with Mullard and RFT is weird. I thought I had some good RFTs and I sent one to Marty and it tested at just slightly above DEAD. I think I have a good Mullard. It's a classic sounding tube, with a little more grit than most of my others. Unless I get something I like a lot more, it's earned a permanent spot in V1 with the Raytheon BP in V2. Marty talked me into a strong Sylvania in V3 and I've got an RCA in V4. I've got to get a real RFT now and an Amperex. Once I get those I think I'll have tried all the ones I set out to and then some.


----------



## RiverRatt

I solved the mystery of the Sonotone side-getter ECC83. I got the second tube out and it does have a very faint 12AX7A printed in the classic RCA font and inside the rounded corner rectangle. It must have been completely covered up on this tube. I still haven't found a picture of another RCA that looks like this, but that's what it is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*That's odd, because the font is "skinny" an it just fits inside of the flattened octagonal box of an RCA tube. I'm looking at the "12AX7A" on your tubes and it is "thick." Is this from a secondary relabeling on the tube and the RCA logo is not visible to me?*


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> How do they sound next to a Mullard? since I dont have one yet?



That depends on where the tubes are placed. If you stick an RFT in V1 and a Mullard in V2, you are going to hear more of the tones from the RFT as V1 is the dominant gain stage. Switch them around and now the Mullard will be the dominant tone.

In some ways a Mullard is similar in tone to an RFT. Both tubes when driven hard produce some grit.

Amperex and Telefunkens will distort, but they do so softer than a Mullard or an RFT. However, that's the beauty of tubes, is that they have very smooth distortion characteristics compared to solid state. That's why a 100 watt tube amp will sound bigger that a 100 watt solid state amp. Most 100 watt Marshall's dimed will produce over 120 watts at 10 per cent THD.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *That's odd, because the font is "skinny" an it just fits inside of the flattened octagonal box of an RCA tube. I'm looking at the "12AX7A" on your tubes and it is "thick." Is this from a secondary relabeling on the tube and the RCA logo is not visible to me?*



I think the Sonotone paint has rubbed off to the point that you can see the RCA numbering underneath it. I don't know why the numbering is so thick on that tube. It looks like that Tung-Sol branded Raytheon AT7 I sent you. You can see the RCA numbering better on the other tube, but barely. Here's the best shot I could get. It's like trying to photograph a ghost. I can see it fine under the right light, but it won't photograph. 






What's all the white stuff on the leads? Did they use silver solder and some sort of flux like borax to solder the connections?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Hey solar wassup? was it a regular penta? If you bought it from doug he might take it back, I just sent back one of my M tubes. Doug is pretty cool for that!



Yeah it was Doug. He replaced the JJ with the Penta. Its a 12AX7B. Pretty much sounds like my other Chinese preamp tubes. Good for high gain average for clean to midgain stuff. It will make a good back up tube though. I just picked it cause it was in the same price range. I already have Tung Sols, Mullards, JJ83S/803S, EH's and Ruby's so I really wasn't wanting anything else CP wise.

I was experimenting with the JJ803S in both my amps. I really liked it in V1 of my DSL but hated it in my NT. Too bad it only lasted about 4hrs. I liked it way better than the higher gain ECC83S by JJ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think the Sonotone paint has rubbed off to the point that you can see the RCA numbering underneath it. I don't know why the numbering is so thick on that tube. It looks like that Tung-Sol branded Raytheon AT7 I sent you. You can see the RCA numbering better on the other tube, but barely. Here's the best shot I could get. It's like trying to photograph a ghost. I can see it fine under the right light, but it won't photograph.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's all the white stuff on the leads? Did they use silver solder and some sort of flux like borax to solder the connections?



I can see the logo much better now. The only problem is that I am thinking these tubes were made before 1960 and that could either be a Tung-Sol logo or and RCA. In this case, I tend to think that they are RCA. To be blunt, I've never seen any side getter 12AX7's until I tested your Sonotones. These could have been spec tubes or SRT's. (Special Request Tubes.) Maybe you have seen more of these from other manufacturers, but I haven't. It was quite common for GE to use side getter and sometimes one side and one top getter in some of their power tubes. Most of the line of thought back then was in favor of top getters. I would have to say that those tubes are probably somewhat rare.

Was the white stuff always there? I'm hoping that a crack didn't occur around a pin and the tube is getting gassey. They used boric acid and boron. The way the tubes were made was they put the bottoms on first and melted the glass around the pins. Then they took the guts and soldered it to the proper pins. I'm assuming that they used silver solder. That was the norm. Do both tubes show white in the bottoms? If so, then as long as it has already been there, I would say it is just from some sort of process.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> How do they sound next to a Mullard? since I dont have one yet?



So far my NOS Mullard has sounded good with a few of my other tubes now.

In V1 or vice versa.


----------



## solarburn

Does anyone else roll preamp tubes like me? 

When I'm roll'n preamp tubes I'll keep the amp in stand by and warmed up between tube rolls so I put the least amount of listening time in between tube to tube. I don't want to lose my frame of reference by waiting for tubes to cool off, pull them and then put new cold ones in and wait another couple of minutes for it to warm up. That 2 minutes to warm up is all I want to wait between playing again.

Going back and forth is much quicker and my frame of reference judging each tube is fresher and I think more accurate than waiting longer.

If I ever screw a tube up by doing this though, I'll quit and let them cool down first. Until then these NOS are hardy tubes and I find they handle this just fine. So do the CP tubes. I am a very gentle tube roller...

Power tubes of course are much hotter and need biasing between rolling so obviously I can't do this with them.

Anyways I was just curious. I know most don't want to handle them while they are heated for fear of damaging them. They may be more fragile in a heated state. Course I found this out after rolling them my way for some time although I had seen vids of others doing it. I haven't had any problems so far. I mean they all keep working...

I'm not advocating this. "Better be safe then sorry." Just wondering if anyone else does it like this.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can see the logo much better now. The only problem is that I am thinking these tubes were made before 1960 and that could either be a Tung-Sol logo or and RCA. In this case, I tend to think that they are RCA. To be blunt, I've never seen any side getter 12AX7's until I tested your Sonotones. These could have been spec tubes or SRT's. (Special Request Tubes.) Maybe you have seen more of these from other manufacturers, but I haven't. It was quite common for GE to use side getter and sometimes one side and one top getter in some of their power tubes. Most of the line of thought back then was in favor of top getters. I would have to say that those tubes are probably somewhat rare.
> 
> Was the white stuff always there? I'm hoping that a crack didn't occur around a pin and the tube is getting gassey. They used boric acid and boron. The way the tubes were made was they put the bottoms on first and melted the glass around the pins. Then they took the guts and soldered it to the proper pins. I'm assuming that they used silver solder. That was the norm. Do both tubes show white in the bottoms? If so, then as long as it has already been there, I would say it is just from some sort of process.



No, the only tube I've seen that looked anything like these was a Japanese made tube labeled ITT I think. These tubes came from a hi-fi stereo set. I can't even remember the make now, but I think the carcass may still be around somewhere. I believe the date on the tube chart was 1960 or 61, so the tubes very well could be pre-1960. That thick logo on the other tube is strange, as the tubes are clearly identical in construction. The one with the thick writing has no RCA-style logo.

The white stuff is clumped up at the solder points, so I'm thinking it is boric acid or borax paste that wasn't cleaned off. I've just never seen it left on. 

Compared to my RCA cleartop 12AU7As, they only bear a passing resemblance. The getter is similar and the plates are similar, but not exact. The AU7 uses mica spacers with flat sides, and the Sonotones are round. 

Either way, they sound good. You tested them at 24-23 and 23-28.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Joe, I test mine like that most of the time. I just try to minimize the jiggling around. The heater filaments are pretty rugged. Your right about keeping the time span to a minimum. Some tubes can sound pretty close. I wish that I could afford that rig you posted a while back, but I would like mine to be able to hold four tubes. That would be cool to flick a switch and go from tube to tube, because the heaters would all be on.*


----------



## RiverRatt

I've always been afraid to test like that, especially as much as these tubes cost. I used to swap tubes in my old Laney head on standby and I noticed a couple of them seemed more noisy later. Probably just paranoia, or they may have been a little microphonic to begin with.


----------



## LosAngelesAceFace

MartyStrat54 said:


> Welcome to the thread. If you are happy using current production (CP) tubes, I say go for it. As Ratt said, I will agree that the Tung-Sol is my favorite CP tube. The only problem is that "some" of the Tung-Sol's have been failing in V3. If you got one in there and it is working, great. Just keep in mind that it may fail due to the high voltages on the tube in that particular circuit. You can use a Mullard RI in there as it is not a gain stage and therefore less likely to hear any microphonics. "Or" you could get a NOS tube and stick it in V3 and not have to worry about it. You can pick up a single tube pretty cheap. However, if it was me, I would get two NOS tubes and put one in V1 and the other in V3. I would leave the Tung-Sol in V2. If you like that, then you could step up to a high gain NOS tube in V2. Here again, it could be a Sylvania tube. These are great tubes, they sound better than CP and they are affordable.



I actually have a JJ in V3. Unfortunately, I've already given my Mullard to my brother who just bought a Marshall head. I figured he has more use for it now. Interesting point you make though. I've actually been having an issue where on the clean channel, with full gain with no pedals, will sometime get cleaner for like a few minutes, then go back to full gain. Could it be the Tung Sol?


----------



## MartyStrat54

LosAngelesAceFace said:


> I actually have a JJ in V3. Unfortunately, I've already given my Mullard to my brother who just bought a Marshall head. I figured he has more use for it now. Interesting point you make though. I've actually been having an issue where on the clean channel, with full gain with no pedals, will sometime get cleaner for like a few minutes, then go back to full gain. Could it be the Tung Sol?



Don't know if the Tung-Sol is in V3, but whatever tube is in there if it is CP it is suspect. V3 is actually operating two separate circuits. One is the tone stack and the other is the cathode follower. If the "half" of the tube running the tone stack is going, you could have the symptoms like you have described.


----------



## LosAngelesAceFace

I was just trying the amp right now. Have it at low master volume (about 3). Doesn't seem to be doing what i said it does. Then again, I haven't fired it up in months. It's a JJ in V3 right now, by the way. Maybe this problem only persists when at high volume. I usually have it at about 6.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Does anyone else roll preamp tubes like me?
> 
> When I'm roll'n preamp tubes I'll keep the amp in stand by and warmed up between tube rolls so I put the least amount of listening time in between tube to tube. I don't want to lose my frame of reference by waiting for tubes to cool off, pull them and then put new cold ones in and wait another couple of minutes for it to warm up. That 2 minutes to warm up is all I want to wait between playing again.
> 
> Going back and forth is much quicker and my frame of reference judging each tube is fresher and I think more accurate than waiting longer.
> 
> If I ever screw a tube up by doing this though, I'll quit and let them cool down first. Until then these NOS are hardy tubes and I find they handle this just fine. So do the CP tubes. I am a very gentle tube roller...
> 
> Power tubes of course are much hotter and need biasing between rolling so obviously I can't do this with them.
> 
> Anyways I was just curious. I know most don't want to handle them while they are heated for fear of damaging them. They may be more fragile in a heated state. Course I found this out after rolling them my way for some time although I had seen vids of others doing it. I haven't had any problems so far. I mean they all keep working...
> 
> I'm not advocating this. "Better be safe then sorry." Just wondering if anyone else does it like this.



yeah i roll like you do, I go back and forth to see what pans out the best. Mines jvm sounds great with the RFT v1 and the penta M tube v2, that balances the rft. getting a thick awsome metal tone on my paul guitar.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> yeah i roll like you do, I go back and forth to see what pans out the best. Mines jvm sounds great with the RFT v1 and the penta M tube v2, that balances the rft. getting a thick awsome metal tone on my paul guitar.



Right on man. Love a nice thick gain. 

I find my JP 12AX7WA in V2 pairs up real well with the RFT in V1. Also putting the JP in V1 and pairing it with a Mullard, BP and RFT all in V2 is good as well. It mixes nicely with other tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, check this tube out.

RCA 7025 Cleartop - USA

These share some similarities with the Sonotone - except they have flat sided spacers like the AU7A. While you're on the tubemonger database, do a search for "cleartop". There are some interesting Brimars that come up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, check this tube out.
> 
> RCA 7025 Cleartop - USA
> 
> These share some similarities with the Sonotone - except they have flat sided spacers like the AU7A. While you're on the tubemonger database, do a search for "cleartop". There are some interesting Brimars that come up.



[The following is just some assorted ramblings I had while trying to answer this post.]

Well, I will say that I haven't been thinking as clear as I have in recent days. I made sort of a stoner remark about these tubes. In other words, cleartops in general. I mean they have side getters. However, I just don't run into that many and the ones I do are not 12AX7's. How rare do you think the Brimar's are? Well, I doubt if I will ever hold one. The RCA side getter 7025 reaffirms my belief that your Sonotone's were made by RCA. As I said, they were probably spec tubes and so the spacers could have been of Sonotone's design. In fact, Sonotone could have supplied the parts to RCA and the tubes were put together on one of RCA's tube lines.

You always have to realize that all of the big electronics companies knew that the way of the tube would be over well before the consumer knew it. RCA had solid state amps in their labs back in the early fifties. It was like when I was young. Did I buy an 8-track player or a cassette deck for my car? Well all of the R and D was in cassettes, which ended with metal oxide tape (that would rust if it got wet). 8-tracks became a thing of the past, but then the CD killed both the cassette and vinyl. I knew about the CD and I warned my friends that in the very near future, their vinyl and cassette tapes would become garbage. Most consumers never saw it coming. It was the same way with tubes. One minute Marantz dealers were praising their tube power amps and a week later all of the tube amps were in the back of the store and the new solid state stuff was center stage.

The point is, RCA may have needed some orders to keep their tube line going. Sonotone may have already decided to scale back, but had orders for their tubes. Everybody did work for everybody. I mean GE and Sylvania were in bed for so long, it's sometimes hard to tell who made the tube. Sylvania was making tubes for RCA by 1970 and the Japanese were making a certain percentage and RCA was doing buy outs from other companies. Most of the tubes had the RCA octagon. Other companies were actually branding them as RCA's. That's why I try to stick with 1966 and below for RCA tubes. 1959 was a super year for RCA 12AX7's.

I only have a small amount of cleartops and I believe them to all be 12AU7's. I'm sorry that I had a brain fart about them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not trying to obsess over these tubes, I've just been doing a few image searches and those were a couple of the more interesting ones I've found. FWIW there's a clear top GE on eBay right now that was made in Canada that looks similar to the RCAs. The Brimars were unexpected, as was a Marconi 7025A cleartop that I ran across somewhere. I guess I'm just interested in the oddities like this that don't fit into any of the stereotypes for a particular manufacturer. I'm having some medical issues that have kept me close to the computer and on some pretty heavy narcotics lately, too. That tends to make search results a lot more interesting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I am more than interested in any of this. It is the unique and odd tubes that I find intriguing. I just wish there was a book called, "The Complete History of Tubes." With chapters on what happened after 1966 and who really was still making tubes after 1966. A couple of chapters on what role Mullard and RFT played in supplying tubes labeled as "Made in USA." Did Tungsram make tubes for American companies? All the tube companies that ever was in business in the USA and when did they close their doors. You know, stuff like that. That's what I wish I knew...all of that.


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## MartyStrat54

*If you are just glancing over the posts here in this thread, please feel free to ask any question you may have. There are several guys who can answer your questions.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Show me your tubes! Got any pic's of your favorite tubes? It does not matter if it is current production or NOS. Show us what you got, what position you use it in and why it is your favorite V1 or V2 tube? *


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have any pics. How do you post them?

I tried yours & Joe's method for preamp tube swapping last night. If it's not hurting the tubes, it's sure a lot quicker and easier to compare. V1 was a hard-fought contest. It ended up being between the 20-20 GE you sent me and my 1966 Mullard. These two tubes sounded a LOT alike. The Mullard won out - it had just a little more "hair" and it had a little more punch than the GE. NOW I have sitting in front of me a new contender. Smooth plates. Diamond bottom. Bring it on.


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## MartyStrat54

*That's what I'm talking about. A fistfight between a Mullard and a Telefunken. Serious fun.*


----------



## racko7566

I'm really glad you guys mentioned rolling tubes in standby, it makes a world of difference in comparing sounds without forgetting the last sound. Thanks guys.


----------



## wegman

So I have this straight. You can put the amp on standby and safely swap out the pre-amp tubes with the amp on?


----------



## racko7566

Out of all the preamp tubes in the world, which one do you think makes the most dramatic changes in sound, be it good or bad?


----------



## racko7566

> So I have this straight. You can put the amp on standby and safely swap out the pre-amp tubes with the amp on?


 Yea, the guys said just dont bang them around when the filaments are hot.


----------



## wegman

racko7566 said:


> Yea, the guys said just dont bang them around when the filaments are hot.



Wow that's cool. I never would have even considered doing that.

Thanks man


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## racko7566

Go back to page 56 of this thread and you can read about it. Its about 3 quater of the way down and written by Solarburn. OOhhh and dont look straight at him youll be blinded.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Out of all the preamp tubes in the world, which one do you think makes the most dramatic changes in sound, be it good or bad?



*That's a tough one, because you have American and European tubes and also what makes the best V1 and V2.*

*I would say my favorite American tube would be my 30-30 RCA 7025. That's one smokin' tube. It can be used in V1, but look out...it's an ICBM. A real monster in V2. My favorite American V1 would be either a 1959 RCA medium Gray Plate, or a 1960-64 Raytheon Black Plate. I also like medium gain 7025's in V1. There's just so many good ones.

My favorite European tube would be a Philips or Amperex (same tube) ECC83/12AX7. To me, this edges out the Telefunken smooth plate in the V1 position. I've also used a medium gain Amperex 7025 in V1 with a high gain Amperex 12AX7 in V2 and this is a deadly combo of Dutch tube technology.

A lot has to do with the brand of amp and the "brand" of power tubes that are being used. I think a Telefunken sounds really good in the first gain stage of a Fender amp. I think Tele's seem to blend better with a 6L6GC versus the EL34 (IMO) The Tele is definitely one of the top three sounding tubes. The smooth plate being the most sought after. I have run a Tele in V1 with a high gain Amperex in V2 and I doubt if anyone one would not like that particular sound. The thing about a Tele is that they all sound different. Depending on the year, the materials used and the machinery, the Tele's all have different sounds. Then you have to remember that RFT made Telefunkens (no diamond on the bottom). I just found this out myself. However, the RFT/Tele's are very,very nice sounding tubes. They have a unique plate assembly and they do not look anything like a Tele. 

This is one of those subjects where there can be several winners. Each of us has a different tonal sound we are striving for. *


----------



## racko7566

Thanks for the great info Marty. I'm like a sponge for info lately, regenerating long lost brain cells I guess. Anybody else? * NEXT, cough, cough *


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I wish I had a cough like that!*


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## MartyStrat54

*Is that a guitar you are holding Racko, or a bong shaped like a guitar?*

:cool2::cool2::cool2::cool2:


----------



## wegman

I hope this works.

Anyone have word on these?


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## MartyStrat54

*If you have bought those...they're nice. Did you get them, or is that an auction picture?*


----------



## wegman

Hi Marty.

That is the picture of the place that has them for sale.

I sent them an e-mail asking if they are NOS and tested like you recommended.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow. I like the Tele! I think it edges out the Mullard for the V1 spot. It's great clean, it gets good 'n' crunchy, and with the gain cranked it's a monster. I've heard people describe tubes as having a "3D" sound, and I think this is what they mean. The highs on this thing are so smooth - I actually turned UP the treble on a DSL! Pinch harmonics are nice, too. With the RFT EL34s and the Raytheon BP and these last two tubes (the Mullard and the Tele), my amp sounds like a different beast altogether. It's as dramatic a change as any mods I've heard, and better in some ways. 

Congrats, Wegman, those look like some nice RCAs. I don't think we've met yet. What kind of amp are you playing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Wow. I like the Tele! I think it edges out the Mullard for the V1 spot. It's great clean, it gets good 'n' crunchy, and with the gain cranked it's a monster. I've heard people describe tubes as having a "3D" sound, and I think this is what they mean. The highs on this thing are so smooth - I actually turned UP the treble on a DSL! Pinch harmonics are nice, too. With the RFT EL34s and the Raytheon BP and these last two tubes (the Mullard and the Tele), my amp sounds like a different beast altogether. It's as dramatic a change as any mods I've heard, and better in some ways.
> 
> Congrats, Wegman, those look like some nice RCAs. I don't think we've met yet. What kind of amp are you playing?



*Gee, Alan...when I read stories like this I just want to cry. I really loved that one line about, "It's as dramatic a change as any mods I've heard and better in some ways." God that sounds nice. See what a little tube rolling can do. Oh, it helps to have some good tubes. I knew you would like the Tele.*


----------



## solarburn

Just check'n in real quick! Looks like guys are having fun roll'n!

I have to let the daughter's use the computer for homework so I will catch up to you bruther's later then.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Wow. I like the Tele! I think it edges out the Mullard for the V1 spot. It's great clean, it gets good 'n' crunchy, and with the gain cranked it's a monster. I've heard people describe tubes as having a "3D" sound, and I think this is what they mean. The highs on this thing are so smooth - I actually turned UP the treble on a DSL! Pinch harmonics are nice, too. With the RFT EL34s and the Raytheon BP and these last two tubes (the Mullard and the Tele), my amp sounds like a different beast altogether. It's as dramatic a change as any mods I've heard, and better in some ways.
> 
> Congrats, Wegman, those look like some nice RCAs. I don't think we've met yet. What kind of amp are you playing?



Hi RiverRatt nice to meet you.

I am struggling with a JCM 800 2210 from 1989. Since having it re-tubed it sounds awful. I have learned a mountain of information from this site and this thread. From everything I have read it looks like I am going to have to start playing with the pre-amp tubes to find "my tone" again.

I saw those RCA's for sale and I was considering picking them up after the really knowledgable people said they look decent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, unlike the 800 I used to own, you have the hot rod model. The 2210 uses four preamp tubes. The most important for tone are V1 and V2. For V3 and V4, I still recommend NOS or ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) for these slots. You can get by with current production (CP) tubes, but V3 can be hard on CP tubes. However, many people are running their amps with CP in V3 and V4.

The main thing is V1 and V2. On the 800's I've sold tubes for, it is imperative that you have a nice, high gainer in V2 to get that amp to perform as it should. It would be nice if one of those RCA's tested higher than the other. This would be your V2. The main point is you can't guess at what you are putting in. If you don't get a high gainer in V2, your 800 is not going to sound as good as it can.


----------



## racko7566

Did you say BONG? I saw nothing, I think, damn cant rememb........


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, unlike the 800 I used to own, you have the hot rod model. The 2210 uses four preamp tubes. The most important for tone are V1 and V2. For V3 and V4, I still recommend NOS or ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) for these slots. You can get by with current production (CP) tubes, but V3 can be hard on CP tubes. However, many people are running their amps with CP in V3 and V4.
> 
> The main thing is V1 and V2. On the 800's I've sold tubes for, it is imperative that you have a nice, high gainer in V2 to get that amp to perform as it should. It would be nice if one of those RCA's tested higher than the other. This would be your V2. The main point is you can't guess at what you are putting in. If you don't get a high gainer in V2, your 800 is not going to sound as good as it can.



Thank you for the info. It lays out where I need to begin my search.

My amp has 5 pre-amp tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Thank you for the info. It lays out where I need to begin my search.
> 
> My amp has 5 pre-amp tubes.



I'm not real familiar with the 2210. I forgot that the PI tube is listed with the power section. I'm always fascinated with Marshall amps that have a lot of preamp tubes (like the 6100). If the 5th tube is the phase inverter, do you know what the other tubes do? I mean I would assume that V1 and V2 are your gain stage tubes, but then what does V3 do? I'm assuming again that V4 is the tone stack/cathode follower tube. That leaves V3 as "another gain tube?" Who says an 800 doesn't have any gain?

Let me know about those tube positions if you know what they are.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I found some info on Google about the 2210 - it only has 3 preamp tubes. V4 and V5 are the reverb driver and the PI.


----------



## ProfChaos

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey All! I'm still a bit new to the Marshall Forum, but already I have seen quite a bit of discussion regarding the selection and operation of power amp tubes. But... I would really like to get some feed back regarding the selection of preamp tubes.
> 
> I rarely play out, and quite frankly seldom have opportunity to turn my TSL122 up past 1 or 2. I am aware of the fact that because of this, I will be getting most of my tone from my preamp section, and not from the power amp. That being the case I would like to know more about how preamp tubes effect my sound.
> 
> I play mainly classic rock ranging from AC/DC to Def Leppard. Clearly I love distorted guitar tone, but I also love the way my TSL122 sounds on the clean channel. So...
> 
> What I am hoping for is feedback from you more experienced members of the forum regarding such topics as: How will different tubes change my sound to better suit my style of playing? What tonal qualities do different preamp tubes have? What is a good starting point for finding the right tubes for me? Can I "mix-and-match" preamp tubes? How long do preamp tubes last? How often should I replace them?
> 
> Please, do share your thoughts on this subject. I am eager to know what your experiences have been. Thanks in advance for your responses!




I play a Model 6100 30th Anniversary head--the EL34 version. In that amp, I prefer to spend the extra dough and go with Mullard 12AX7 pre-amp tubes. The new Mullard 12AX7 (re-issue) tubes are very friendly to overdriven tone--as in the pentode (Mesa Boogie-like) 100-watt setting of the 30th Anniversary head.

Even so, I would caution against merely replacing all your 12AX7 tubes willy-nilly; be sensitive to and aware of which tube came from which tube socket: The last 12AX7 (V4?) in the pre-amp of your Marshall is what is known as a "Matched Phase Inverter" (MPI); it is a "Special Application" tube. The MPI-tube drives the first stage of the power amp. More specifically, it is critical in the "push-pull" Class AB Marshall power amp that the MPI that drives the power amp be balanced for equal sine wave output on both negative and positive voltage cycles of the tube. (The specially balanced MPI tube averts a really weird, wobbly effect that would occur if the tube were not tuned to provide equal output at both negative and positive voltage cycles.)

Lastly, I might be wrong, but it seems to me that, in characterizing your sound as "distorted guitar tone," you might be confusing the terms "distortion" and "overdrive." Unless you use a "stomp box" pedal like a Pro-Co "Ratt" or an ElectroHarmonix "Big Muff Pie," you likely mean "overdrive," and not "distortion." (The yellow and red LED channel indicators represent different levels of overdrive--as in yellow = "Crunch," as in moderately overdriven, and red = [soaring] "Lead," as in heavily overdriven.)
As a flexible--yet general--rule, distortion = stinky-bad; overdrive = oh-so-good.  The overdrive effect is what gives the Marshall its crunch and the Boogie its bite. 


cheers,
--Professor Chaos


----------



## Madaxeman

I know a tech who swears that you're better off with an unbalanced valve as a phase inverter. He reckons certain guitar amps sound worse with a balanced PI. 


With preamp valves in general, I swap em around until I find a combination that works. 
Right now in my Jubilee 2554 I'm running Siemens EL34's and Shuguang 7th/8th Gen in V3, Mullard ECC83 in V2 and a Pope/Amperex ECC83 in V1.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm not real familiar with the 2210. I forgot that the PI tube is listed with the power section. I'm always fascinated with Marshall amps that have a lot of preamp tubes (like the 6100). If the 5th tube is the phase inverter, do you know what the other tubes do? I mean I would assume that V1 and V2 are your gain stage tubes, but then what does V3 do? I'm assuming again that V4 is the tone stack/cathode follower tube. That leaves V3 as "another gain tube?" Who says an 800 doesn't have any gain?
> 
> Let me know about those tube positions if you know what they are.



I found this on line. It has all the positions listed and what they do in many Marshall amps. Don't let the link name fool you. If you scroll down to about a 1/4 of the way they have all the amps listed.

Marshall Amplifiers, Pre-1990


----------



## ProfChaos

Madaxeman said:


> I know a tech who swears that you're better off with an unbalanced valve as a phase inverter. He reckons certain guitar amps sound worse with a balanced PI.
> 
> 
> With preamp valves in general, I swap em around until I find a combination that works.
> Right now in my Jubilee 2554 I'm running Siemens EL34's and Shuguang 7th/8th Gen in V3, Mullard ECC83 in V2 and a Pope/Amperex ECC83 in V1.



When "he reckons certain guitar amps sound worse with a balanced PI," he is almost certainly not talking about the Marshall 6100 30th Anniversary head with EL34's: When I unwittingly replaced the Matched Phase Inverter in my 30th Anniversary head by plugging in a new 12AX7 Groove Tubes Mullard reissue, the amp sounded awful, at both the triode and pentode settings. It might be that your friend is arriving at a balanced phase inverter effect by mixing and matching the 12AX7's (ECC83's) leading up to the matched phase inverter. Whatever the case with your friend, the MPI is the Most Important Tube in Your Amp; this tube immediately precedes the bias circuit, and it drives the push-pull circuit of the four power amp output tubes. Any issues with the matched phase inverter get multiplied through the stages of gain in the power amp.

More specifically, the PDF drawing of the Marshall 6100's power amp shows that V7a and V7b (a matched-phase triode pair) drive all else in the power amp. This is why some audiophile engineers and technicians refer to the matched phase inverter as the "most important tube in your amplifier."

cheers, 
--Professor Chaos


----------



## solarburn

I don't buy into putting a matched or balanced tube into the PI slot on a guitar amp. HIFI amps are another story...

Here is a little excerpt from a guy on this subject:

Some simple and more "HIFI" PI's have what's called unity gain, which means no gain at all. Most guitar amps that are based on Fender/Marshall designs use a type of PI called a "long-tailed phase inverter", which has BAGS of gain!

In hifi applications it's common to design a "balanced" PI. This means that each PI output, while out of phase to each other will be exactly balanced so that when the output waves are combined in the output transformer things will be perfectly even on each side of the combined wave. This helps give the lowest distortion and the most "hifi" sound.

Tube stores will sell you 12AX7's that have been matched and balanced, meaning that since this tube consists of two triode amplifiers contained in one glass tube when you use it as a PI each triode will more perfectly provide that same gain, "balanced" output.

Unless you're a purist jazz player, who the heck wants a hifi guitar sound?

Most guitar amps also adjust parts values in the PI stage to provide reasonable balancing but being a bit off actually provides a better tone!

There are a lot of hifi technical ideas that crop up from tube stores wanting to make more money from guitar players that aren't really appropriate. They only make sense in a hifi application. Myself, I would never bother with a balanced PI tube in a guitar amp but in a tube hifi amp it's not a bad idea. Even then, it's easy to get too anal and nitpicky. The human ear is physically incapable of detecting much less than 2-3% distortion. To quibble about .1% vs .2% is frankly ridiculous!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I don't buy into putting a matched or balanced tube into the PI slot on a guitar amp.



Me either. I'm finding that I like a higher gain 12AX7 in the PI spot. Quite a change from my old days of nothing but 12AT7s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I found some info on Google about the 2210 - it only has 3 preamp tubes. V4 and V5 are the reverb driver and the PI.



That's cool, a tube reverb driver. So is V3 the tone stack and cathode follower?

I looked at Dr. Tube last night and they have a horrible GIF photo for the 2210. However, it does look like V3 may be the TS and CF.


----------



## wegman

Lead models 2205, 2210, 4210, 4211, 4212 
V1 is the first preamp. Recommend a low-noise type with a coiled heater, such as NOS 7025s or ECC83s. JJ ECC83s and Sovtek 12AX7LPSs or EHs are suitable. NOS 5751s recommended if lower gain is desired.

V2 is the driver and cathode follower for the tone controls. A low noise tube is not critical, however the heater-cathode insulation must be good quality. NOS JAN 12AX7s are recommended for this position. We understand that some technicians recommend Ei or JJ ECC83s for this duty.

V3 is the mix amplifier after the master volume control. A low noise tube is not needed here. Any 12AX7 of good quality will work, although guitarists picky about their tone may prefer a top-grade NOS version.

V4 is the reverb driver and recovery amplifier. A low noise tube is not critical. This position is very hard on the cathode, due to high current. NOS JAN 12AX7s are recommended for this position.

V5 is the phase inverter. A low noise tube is not critical, however the heater-cathode insulation must be good quality. NOS JAN 12AX7s are recommended for this position. We understand that some technicians recommend Ei or JJ ECC83s for this duty.

Power tubes are 2 x EL34 in 50-watt models, 4 x EL34 in 100-watt models (2210, 4211). These models were designed for 6550s, and can also accept KT88s or EL34s. Bias adjustment is MANDATORY


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Continuing on about a balanced PI. This thread is immensely long and over the course of many months we have experimented with unbalanced PI tubes and found them to be highly acceptable in all of our amp. The Marshall amp is built with components that are + or - 20 per cent. With that in mind, we look at the tolerance of the first and second gain stages. These gain stages have a lot of "slack" to them. They are not perfect and they are not "matched." As mentioned by SolarBurn, if you have a Hi Fi amp and it is built to higher tolerances, there is a good chance that it is also a Class A or High Class AB amp. Because it's "stereo," you would want to try to balance the gain out so the left and right speakers were of the same volume. That would be the only reason to "match" the PI tube in a Hi Fi amp. Remember, your ears cannot detect imperfections below a certain dB level or below a certain level of distortion..

I used to fall for the balanced PI and it is just a rip-off by those who push them. Some guitarists actually use a highly mismatched PI tube, because they get "their" sound out of that sort of tube. Harmonica players do this to their amps as well. They get more complicated harmonics from the amp.

Several of us have used all sorts of tubes in V4. High gain, lop-sided, low gain, near matched and they all seem to do the job. Now by doing these tests we realized that a real high gain tube (to high for V1 or V2) will work in the PI and it does affect the overall gain of the amp. Not by much, but there is a difference between running a medium gain tube in the PI and a very high gain tube in the PI. Conclusion? A whole lot of gain makes very little change in this slot.

The other thing is that these are all 12AX7 type tubes. Since we've covered the PI issue, it then allows us to roll the tubes in whatever slot we please. We are experienced rollers. We are mainly interested in V1 and V2. We have carefully selected tubes that we think work best in V3 and V4. This allows us to concentrate on the tonal qualities of Amperex, Telefunken, Mullard and Black Plate tubes.

I appreciate your comments and yes, the 6100 is a unique amp. However, I know how it works and it is still a basic Marshall as far as the power amp goes. It is of the same design as almost every modern Marshall. Your 6100 has a lot of preamp tubes which in a ways can be expensive when it comes time to change them. Marshall figured out how to make multi-channel amps with a smaller amount of tubes...but the amp section is still the same.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> V3 is the mix amplifier after the master volume control. A low noise tube is not needed here. Any 12AX7 of good quality will work, although guitarists picky about their tone may prefer a top-grade NOS version.



I looked at the Dr. Tube schematic last night and saw how V3 was being used. Because it says a low noise tube is not needed here, I suspect that mix amplifier could possibly be the same as the tone stack. This would use one half of the tube. I assume that the other half is the cathode follower. The bottom line is that your amp has these circuits and it takes a 12AX7 to drive them. 

Other than your tube reverb driver, your amp appears to have the classic four tube arrangement.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Things are getting a little slow around here. I think it's time to launch a new theme here. It's October...how about something scary like Count Telefunken? Yeah, everybody is starting to really show some interest in these fine tubes.

Here is a picture of a Tele Smooth, Tele Ribbed and Tele/RFT Smooth. I was wrong when I stated earlier about the RFT's construction. It is for the most part identical in every way. The Smooth Tele on the left has a red tip. Telefunken would paint the tips blue or red to designate them as medical or test equipment approved.*






The vast majority of hi fi users will claim that the smoothie is the better Tele. I have used all three and the differences are not worth mentioning. I will say that a stronger gain Tele has a different sound over a lower gain one. By this I mean a 21-22 versus a 25-24. Out of all the Tele's I have, only three measure in the upper twenties. I am getting 12 more in and some of them are going to be V2's as I have dealt with this seller before.

I am looking forward to using an Amperex 7025 in V1 and a 29-28 Tele in V2. That ought to sound awesome. 

Well ghosts and goblins, it's time to let those Tele's wail in your high gain amp. Please don't overdo it.

*I went back and looked at the RFT's and they all have a thicker, longer tip at the top of the bottle like the one in the picture. Also, notice the dark base on the RFT.*


----------



## solarburn

I'm looking forward to giving one of these a spin in V1. Should be ghoulish for sure!

Well at least with my playing...


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's my triple threat. Left to right: 1966 Mullard (GE 6681), Raytheon black plate, and the Telefunken (Fisher) smooth plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Pay close attention to the year of that 6681. It's 1966. That is the year all of the crazy shit started to happen. Alan...I have never seen a "pinched top" 6681. You have got some spooky tubes. 

Anyway, that's one hell of a power trio you have.*


----------



## solarburn

Yep, that's a tri-fecta of tone. Just look how sexy that BP is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yep, that's a tri-fecta of tone. Just look how sexy that BP is.



*Yes, they are a thing of beauty. They sound damn good as well.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*You know it never ceases to amaze me. I won't mention who, but a forum member was asking for tube help. I always try to steer them here, but some folks get intimidated by the volume of pages in this thread. 

So I give this guy the benefit of the doubt and give him four or so replies. I just read his latest post. He bought Groove Tubes and JJ preamps and if I remember, GT power tubes. Right across the board of what I told him not to get. Can't give out anymore or you'll know who he is.

Well Ha-Fucking-Ha...I hope you enjoy your new tone pony.*


----------



## wegman

You know I was a run of the mill mild mannored Joe till I found this thread. Now I am looking for old tubes like a junkie looking to score. I have been asking everyone I know if they have any old tubes. It turns out a guy I work with used to repair TV's and old electronics. I told him what I was looking for and he knew right away what it was. He said he is going to look around and see if he has anything. If he does it is mine.

If I come across anything interesting I will post it.

Let's say this guy comes up with something. Any words of wisdom before I go popping a 40 year old tube in my Marshall?

I mean it sounds like crap right now but at least it works.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Putting a bad preamp tube is not going to hurt the amp and you will know right away that it's bad. Without a tester, all you can do is roll them. I wish you the very best and I hope the guy loads you down with some nice 12AX7's. What you will hope for is White Label RCA, 59-66 Raytheon Black Plates, any tube that says 5751, 12AT7, 6681 or 7025. Any thing with a black plate, GE, RCA or Sylvania.

If you score, try to get some clear pics up (I suck at it myself, but some of it is my digital camera) and then we can tell you what you have.*


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Pay close attention to the year of that 6681. It's 1966. That is the year all of the crazy shit started to happen. Alan...I have never seen a "pinched top" 6681. You have got some spooky tubes.
> 
> Anyway, that's one hell of a power trio you have.*



It's just a plain ol' Mullard. It has a 163 code and the date code is B6K1. The GE code looks like UY with what looks like 183-5 under that. GE must have needed to fill an order or something. I tried it in V1 with the Tele in V2. It wasn't as good as either one with the Raytheon BP in V2.

I still think the Arcturus 12AZ7 is the coolest-looking tube I have. The logo is very intricate. It's clearly a Raytheon short black plate. Whether its a Ray 12AZ7 or a 12AT7 is anybody's guess, but the construction looks just like that relabeled Tung-Sol AT7 I sent you. Was it any good, BTW?


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> You know I was a run of the mill mild mannored Joe till I found this thread. Now I am looking for old tubes like a junkie looking to score. I have been asking everyone I know if they have any old tubes. It turns out a guy I work with used to repair TV's and old electronics. I told him what I was looking for and he knew right away what it was. He said he is going to look around and see if he has anything. If he does it is mine.
> 
> If I come across anything interesting I will post it.
> 
> Let's say this guy comes up with something. Any words of wisdom before I go popping a 40 year old tube in my Marshall?
> 
> I mean it sounds like crap right now but at least it works.



Wegman, it's an addiction. I've driven 50 miles on a rumor that there might be some tubes around. Don't forget to raid old Hi-Fi sets from the mid-1950's to the mid-1960's. I bought one turntable/AM/FM stereo box that had a Mullard EZ81 recto, a couple of good 12AT7s and these two Sonotone ECC83 clear tops that nobody can identify but sound great. I'm thinking they are RCAs until I find conclusive evidence. Console sets are good, too. I've got a sweet 6BQ5 (EL84) that I pulled from an old TV chassis in a barn. You never know where goodies will turn up.

Good luck with the TV guy. TV sets use a lot of oddball tubes, but occasionally you'll find a gem. If you're going to be a successful hunter, you need to study ALL the different numbers that are basically the same tube. There are a lot more than you'd think. And don't believe every tube substitution chart you see on the internet. Some tubes will work, but have a different pinout and require some voodoo to use.


----------



## wegman

Marty, RiverRatt

Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate it. I didn't realize there were other tubes that would work. I asked him to look for 12AX7s/ECC83s. He knew right away they were pre-amp tubes. I was not schooled enough to tell him to look for others.

I will tell him to be on the look out for some of the others you guys mentioned.

I am like a little kid at Christmas. I can't wait to go to work tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a list that has some substitutions. One thing to realize is that while, for example, all the substitutions they have listed for the 12AX7 tube type will work, but may have different gain characteristics. Also the power tubes they have listed would not substitute without some changes to the bias resistors at least, but any of the tubes you see listed here would be good to look for. The 6CA7 = EL34 = KT77. I don't know why they put all those others as subs.

Tube Substitution Table

Also, any 12A_7 will substitute for any other, but as above, they have different gain levels. 12BZ7s are an interesting 12AX7 substitution, too. In the second gain stage, they can really make a Marshall sound hot-rodded. A 12BH7 will behave about like a 12AT7.


----------



## solarburn

I'm just giving a quick blip here but I got the EH6CA7's in. PV was 475v and biased em' to 75% PD and spanked my plank!

I give them a  on both gain and clean channels but I still need to open them up the rest of the way and that means I have to wait until the father-in-law goes out to breakfast. Its a bitch having to wait for this to happen. The rest of the family deals with me but I won't blow him out of the house. I'm not that mean. The kids they just go play outside. The wife lets it happen. I give her props for that. Doesn't mean I like her though...:eek2:

Anyways I won't give my seal of approval until I light the chubby bottles up for some high volume torture sessions...poor neighbors.



Just to jog people's memory on what they are like. From the Tubestore:

At last something to replace the hole left since the EI 6CA7 went out of stock. These tubes sound every bit as good as the old EI tubes and are probably my favorite tubes for Hiwatt guitar amplifiers. It’s like they were made for each other. These tubes are like EL34’s on steroids. They handle high voltage and current without problems. As mentioned, there is nothing like a Hiwatt head powered by 6CA7 tubes and driving a 4x12 cab loaded with Fane speakers. This is classic rock tone at its finest. It’s the sound of Pete Townsend and The Who. The 6CA7 has more headroom than an EL34 and by the time you get it really crunchy sounding your pants are flapping in the breeze. Just the right amount of compression for great thick rock tone. Biasing levels can be dialed in from warm to hot without causing significant tonal changes. The EH is well constructed and should not pose any noise problems. If using these tubes in more reasonable systems the EH 6CA7 is capable of some really nice clean tones thanks to that extra headroom. If you want early Van Halen, these are not the tubes for you. If you want something loud and proud, you want to put the EH 6CA7 in your amp.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *You know it never ceases to amaze me. I won't mention who, but a forum member was asking for tube help. I always try to steer them here, but some folks get intimidated by the volume of pages in this thread.
> 
> So I give this guy the benefit of the doubt and give him four or so replies. I just read his latest post. He bought Groove Tubes and JJ preamps and if I remember, GT power tubes. Right across the board of what I told him not to get. Can't give out anymore or you'll know who he is.
> 
> Well Ha-Fucking-Ha...I hope you enjoy your new tone pony.*



JJ's and GT's freek'n rule Broham!!!!!!!!!!! I've got to have it now! No time to stop and think. JJ's and Gt's for me man. I ain't got no time for you old tube talk'n crappers!


BELCH!


----------



## wegman

wegman said:


> Marty, RiverRatt
> 
> Thanks for all the information. I really appreciate it. I didn't realize there were other tubes that would work. I asked him to look for 12AX7s/ECC83s. He knew right away they were pre-amp tubes. I was not schooled enough to tell him to look for others.
> 
> I will tell him to be on the look out for some of the others you guys mentioned.
> 
> I am like a little kid at Christmas. I can't wait to go to work tomorrow.




Well I scored a couple tubes. One is a 12BH7A Sylvania and the other is a 
12AU7 and I can't tell who the mafacturer is.

So I can just pop these in and try them out?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Well I scored a couple tubes. One is a 12BH7A Sylvania and the other is a
> 12AU7 and I can't tell who the mafacturer is.
> 
> So I can just pop these in and try them out?



The 12AU7 will have a gain factor of 20 as opposed to a 12AX7 which is at 100. So you will notice a sizable difference between the 2. If I used that 12AU7 in V1 it would neuter my overall gain on my DSL just to give an example.

Don't know bout the 12BH7A.

Here is a table to look at:

http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html


----------



## RiverRatt

You won't hurt anything by giving them a try, but odds are you won't like them in your guitar amp. The 12BH7 has about the same gain as a 12AT7 and might could be used as a phase inverter, but the 12AU7 will neuter an amp in just about any spot.

Both of these tubes can be (and are) used in low-watt guitar amplifiers as a power tube. There's a 1-watt amp project at AX84.com called the Firefly that uses a 12AU7 output tube, and I've been reading that Blackstar makes a low-watt amp that uses the 12BH7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Joe...*

*I'm glad you like you new CP Power Tubes. Hey...maybe they finally got it right. Now I won't put them on the same level as a dual getter, black plate, Fat Boy. These tubes can take more power than any other 6CA7's, EL34's and KT77's. There are even some that are more rare than a regular Fat Boy. However, if these tubes can handle the plate power of my 602's (500VDC+), I will have to look strongly at them. 

My main thing is I want to hear your review with the tubes at volume.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Well I scored a couple tubes. One is a 12BH7A Sylvania and the other is a
> 12AU7 and I can't tell who the manufacturer is.
> 
> So I can just pop these in and try them out?



Yes you can, but these tubes are not going to help you out. Sort of like a 20 watt light bulb versus a 100 watt light bulb. The tubes you have are very common and as Alan (RATT) said, you can give them a try, it won't hurt. However, they are very low gain and it will take you backwards instead of forward on trying to get better sound out of your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I did some major editing here. I spent a shitload of time trying to get a nice pic, but after about 40 shots it was a no go. Time to get out the owners manual. While I had it on "AUTO," it still needed to be on "Close Up." Gee...what a difference it makes. Know I have the knowledge to do it over and over. Whah ha ha!

From left to right is a 1960 RCA/Mullard 12AX7, a 1959 RCA Gray Plate and a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy. Three really sweet V1 tubes.

It's so nice that I was able to take that shitty picture down and replace it with this shot. These are just three of the many super tubes that I have. Notice the "D" Getter on the middle RCA. These are highly desirable.
*


----------



## RiverRatt

Heading off in a completely different direction: 

Did Marshall use preamp tubes made by Ei in the late '90s? I've got a Marshall-branded ECC83 here and it looks just like the Ei at thetubestore. It has smooth plates and a pinched top. If it is an Ei, are they any good?


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes you can, but these tubes are not going to help you out. Sort of like a 20 watt light bulb versus a 100 watt light bulb. The tubes you have are very common and as Alan (RATT) said, you can give them a try, it won't hurt. However, they are very low gain and it will take you backwards instead of forward on trying to get better sound out of your amp.



Yep, right on the money Marty those tubes were a bust. Made my amp sound even more like AM radio then it does.

I'm not done. I have some other sources I have employeed to see what they can find.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Yes. Yes and yes. Ei was a Godsend for Marshall and they bought a boatload of tubes from them. I guarantee that Marshall was sad to see them go. My 1999 401 had all Ei tubes in it. Some places are wanting as much as $30 for an Ei 12AX7. That's a little too much for me when I can shop and buy something better. However, the Ei 12AX7 was probably the best made CP tube. How does it sound in V1?*


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Yep, right on the money Marty those tubes were a bust. Made my amp sound even more like AM radio then it does.
> 
> I'm not done. I have some other sources I have employeed to see what they can find.



Do you not have any good tubes right now? Are you running the originals in your amp? Yeah, you need to hit a big flea market and see what you can come up with. You need some good "TOOBS."


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you not have any good tubes right now? Are you running the originals in your amp? Yeah, you need to hit a big flea market and see what you can come up with. You need some good "TOOBS."



I am running my old tubes which for all I know are original from 89. They still sound better the GTs. They are just aweful. The GTs make the amp super thin and harsh.

The problem I am having is that when running scales there is no seperation between the notes if that makes sense. Everything kind of runs together. There is also alot of background noise. Nothing is crisp and sharp.

IF you know what I am saying can you recommend a tube?


----------



## ken361

I dropped one of my GE jan 12ax7WA in the PI, its seems to smooth and help the crunch more then the stock one.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Joe...*
> 
> *I'm glad you like you new CP Power Tubes. Hey...maybe they finally got it right. Now I won't put them on the same level as a dual getter, black plate, Fat Boy. These tubes can take more power than any other 6CA7's, EL34's and KT77's. There are even some that are more rare than a regular Fat Boy. However, if these tubes can handle the plate power of my 602's (500VDC+), I will have to look strongly at them.
> 
> My main thing is I want to hear your review with the tubes at volume.*




Yeah. Stay tuned...I'll get a chance to crank soon. The father-in-law has been go'n out pretty regular lately. I missed it the first day I got them. I didn't get the tubes till later in the day after he had gotten back. Bummer.

I'll let ya know. I hope they turn out to be a viable option...


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I am running my old tubes which for all I know are original from 89. They still sound better the GTs. They are just aweful. The GTs make the amp super thin and harsh.
> 
> The problem I am having is that when running scales there is no seperation between the notes if that makes sense. Everything kind of runs together. There is also alot of background noise. Nothing is crisp and sharp.
> 
> IF you know what I am saying can you recommend a tube?



Well I hope that some of that noise isn't coming from bad filter caps. By what you describe, I wonder if that isn't what it is. If you could do a complete retube, then you would be able to tell if it was still having noise and blurry sounds. That's the down side to some of the older amps. You never know when a filter cap will go bad. Your amp takes a lot of tubes. I was hoping you could get at least a couple of NOS or ANOS tubes and see how that sounded. However, now I'm wondering if you don't have other problems.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I hope that some of that noise isn't coming from bad filter caps. By what you describe, I wonder if that isn't what it is. If you could do a complete retube, then you would be able to tell if it was still having noise and blurry sounds. That's the down side to some of the older amps. You never know when a filter cap will go bad. Your amp takes a lot of tubes. I was hoping you could get at least a couple of NOS or ANOS tubes and see how that sounded. However, now I'm wondering if you don't have other problems.




I don't want to pollute this excellent thread with my amp problems. I will just say that my problems started after I had the amp retubed, so I figured it is the tubes or maybe the bias.


----------



## racko7566

I just won two tubes on Ebay and was wondering if you guys could tell me if they are good ones. One is a 1952 RCA Black Plate JRC 12ax7, and the other is an RCA 12ax7a with short grey plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> I just won two tubes on Ebay and was wondering if you guys could tell me if they are good ones. One is a 1952 RCA Black Plate JRC 12ax7, and the other is an RCA 12ax7a with short grey plates.



Boy that 52 is an old one. I'm assuming the seller listed the test results? An old RCA black plate is a dandy as long as it's good. The AX7A is a great tube and a favorite of SolarBurn (Joe). They are usually as quiet as a 7025. The short gray plates are a sweet sounding tube. Looks like you have a couple of winners.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I don't want to pollute this excellent thread with my amp problems. I will just say that my problems started after I had the amp retubed, so I figured it is the tubes or maybe the bias.



Well with that in mind, we just need to get you set up with some decent tubes. What's your game plan? What kind of a budget do you have? You might have to go with part NOS and part CP.


----------



## racko7566

This is awesome. With the four NOS tubes from Marty, And two more on the way I'll be rollin for a while. Was wondering, if I have 6 tubes and 4 available positions , is that 24 tone possibilities or am I thinking to easy on this?  PS. Marty, its test results said closely matched 50-51


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well with that in mind, we just need to get you set up with some decent tubes. What's your game plan? What kind of a budget do you have? You might have to go with part NOS and part CP.




Funds are pretty tight. I am hoping to get lucky and come up with something. Another guy I work with said his brother has all kinds of old electronic stuff like the old console stereo's etc. So he is going to see what he can come up with. Basically I am hoping to get lucky. I already dropped like $100 in GTs. Stupid I know.....now. Wifee will hit the ceiling if I do it again.

I tried to get a shot of the current tubes I am using but I can't get a decent picture. If anyone knows how I can get a decent shot please let me know.

Geez I am needy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> This is awesome. With the four NOS tubes from Marty, And two more on the way I'll be rollin for a while. Was wondering, if I have 6 tubes and 4 available positions , is that 24 tone possibilities or am I thinking to easy on this?  PS. Marty, its test results said closely matched 50-51



*Sounds like it was tested on a TV-7. If so, that's a good, solid tube.

As far as rolling possibilities, it depends on what you're rolling? If you are talking tubes, I can put it this way. 6 tubes plus 4 slots equal a whole lot of rolling.

(Don't burn your fingers...oh but you're probably used to that, those little roaches can bite sometime.)*


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Yes. Yes and yes. Ei was a Godsend for Marshall and they bought a boatload of tubes from them. I guarantee that Marshall was sad to see them go. My 1999 401 had all Ei tubes in it. Some places are wanting as much as $30 for an Ei 12AX7. That's a little too much for me when I can shop and buy something better. However, the Ei 12AX7 was probably the best made CP tube. How does it sound in V1?*



Cool. My DSL was made in 2000 and had two of them in it. The others were Svetlanas. I thought were the cheap Chinese tubes and took them out. I don't know about V1 - I haven't had them in the amp since when I bought it. I'll give them a test this weekend. I'll bet they won't sound as good as the Tele/Raytheon combo.


----------



## racko7566

Yes. and the tubes are hot 2


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Cool. My DSL was made in 2000 and had two of them in it. The others were Svetlanas. I thought were the cheap Chinese tubes and took them out. I don't know about V1 - I haven't had them in the amp since when I bought it. I'll give them a test this weekend. I'll bet they won't sound as good as the Tele/Raytheon combo.



*No sorry, they won't sound as good as the Tele/Raytheon. That's a hard act to follow.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Yes. and the tubes are hot 2



*Well there you go. I knew I could count on you to "finger" it out. *


----------



## racko7566

Oh yea Marty, It says the 52 has a 45 degree angled D getter. I'm not sure, does the angle make a difference?


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> I am running my old tubes which for all I know are original from 89. They still sound better the GTs. They are just aweful. The GTs make the amp super thin and harsh.
> 
> The problem I am having is that when running scales there is no seperation between the notes if that makes sense. Everything kind of runs together. There is also alot of background noise. Nothing is crisp and sharp.
> 
> IF you know what I am saying can you recommend a tube?



Wegman, I think I missed a post somewhere. Did you buy new preamp tubes or power tubes? I bought a new set of GTEL34 Mullard reissues and thought they sounded awful. Turns out the bias had to be set a lot colder for GTEL34Ms. Once I got them dialed in, they weren't bad.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Wegman, I think I missed a post somewhere. Did you buy new preamp tubes or power tubes? I bought a new set of GTEL34 Mullard reissues and thought they sounded awful. Turns out the bias had to be set a lot colder for GTEL34Ms. Once I got them dialed in, they weren't bad.




I bought a set of Svetlana power tubes because the tubes in my amp were never replaced and I had it for like 10 years so I figured it was due. I put the Svetlana's in and took the amp to have it biased. The tech tells me my new tubes are bad and so are my pre's. He replaces both the power tubes and the pre amp tubes with GTs. He returns my pre-amp tubes but I did not get my power tubes back. I get my amp back and it sounds and plays like crap. It is bright, harsh just horrible. I called him and complained and he is like that is how Marshall sounds. I figure maybe is just me and I am just not used to the new sound. Several months later I am still not used to it.

I put my original pre-amp tubes back in and sound sort of sound like me again but the amp just does not sound or play the same since having the work done. It has to be the power tubes or the amp is biased incorrectly. 

I have learned from experimentation and this thread just how much your tone changes by using different pre amp tubes. It's amazing. I can just imagine what a set of NOS pre amp tubes will do to your sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*WEG...*
*Can you not return the GT's? How long have you had them? I find it suspicious that your tech did not return your power tubes. I would have liked to been able to make some suggestions before you bought tubes. 800's are really finicky, but they do respond well to certain tubes.

So your tech said your new tubes were bad? Meaning the GT's? Boy this is all too weird. I've never heard a tech make the remarks he did that all Marshall amps are harsh. That's 100 per cent bull shit.

Sounds like he is a shifty little f**ker.*


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> *WEG...*
> *Can you not return the GT's? How long have you had them? I find it suspicious that your tech did not return your power tubes. I would have liked to been able to make some suggestions before you bought tubes. 800's are really finicky, but they do respond well to certain tubes.
> 
> So your tech said your new tubes were bad? Meaning the GT's? Boy this is all too weird. I've never heard a tech make the remarks he did that all Marshall amps are harsh. That's 100 per cent bull shit.
> 
> Sounds like he is a shifty little f**ker.*


At the end of the day that is pretty much what I think and I will not use him ever again. This was a whille ago so it is all water under the bridge now. I knew nothing about tubes or anything when I had the work done. 

I have the name of new guy who comes highly recommended to me. So I will check him out since I need to have the amp biased after putting the Svetlana's back in. He said it will be $20 to bias it. I think that is fair.

So to get back on track. There is a huge difference between the pre-amp tube I originally had in the amp and GT's. I mean maybe some guys like GTs but compared to my old pre's the GT's just sound like crap. I would never stick another GT in my amp again.

I have tried to get a shot of my original pre amp tubes in the hopes one of you guys could tell me what kind it is but the pics aren't turning out to good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Read my ^^^picture post.^^^ I stated that if you use an "auto" setting, you will need to manually reset the camera to a "close up" mode. Once I figured this out, it takes perfect pictures. Also, set your tubes in styrofoam and rest your camera on something flat. This makes a cheap man's tripod. On those close ups, you don't want any movement.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Joe...*

*I was doing some looking for real 6CA7's. I cannot believe the prices that KCA wants. Most places were $250 for a pair NIB. KCA wants $390 for a pair NIB. I did however find this little ditty about the 6CA7EH. Apparently I would not be able to use them in my 602.*

electro harmonix 6ca7eh (matched pair)


----------



## wegman

My camera doesn't have a close up mode so this is the best I can do. This is one of my pre-amp tubes. The have Ecc83 in red on the side. No other markings. I don't know if you can make anything out from picture.


----------



## racko7566

Thank you MARTYSTRAT54, I just got the Raytheon Black Plate you sent me. Oh my god, I have a new amp. Now my DSL has a bite and roar that it was missing. Don't get me wrong, it sounded good before, but now it sounds great. Notes and chords sound big and sustaining. Hard to explain but I love it. The combination Marty recommended for what I was after was an Amperex for v1, a Raytheon Black Plate for v2, and Sylvania Grey Plates for v3 and v4. Thanks to his experience, he more than likely saved me a ton of money buying the wrong crap. Thanks again Marty. 
Now as I dive into the world of tube rollin, this combo will be my standard to test other tubes by. Wiil post some pics of them. Later, Racko


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Yeah, the Amperex is still my favorite even though we are all suffering from Telefunken fever. An Amperex in V1 with the BP is a killer one, two punch. The Sylvania's in V3 and V4 add reliability. ROCK ON!*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Joe...*
> 
> *I was doing some looking for real 6CA7's. I cannot believe the prices that KCA wants. Most places were $250 for a pair NIB. KCA wants $390 for a pair NIB. I did however find this little ditty about the 6CA7EH. Apparently I would not be able to use them in my 602.*
> 
> electro harmonix 6ca7eh (matched pair)



Man what the hell. The descriptions of these point to how well they will handle higher voltages and how stout of a tube they are. According to KCA I shouldn't be running them either. My PV is 475v right now with them in. I'll get ahold of the Tubestore and Doug's(he tells me what tubes to avoid even if he sells them)and see if they confirm what Mike has on his site about them. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## ProfChaos

jupiter89 said:


> I remember in the late 60's early 70's when my dad would send me to the local Super X drug store to test and buy new tubes for either the Zenith TV or the tube equipped stereo we had. At the front of the store was the tube tester that indicated something like poor, fair, good on a meter after you plugged in the tube into its appropiate socket. In the drawers below in pristine RCA and Sylvania boxes were brand new tubes for just a few bucks. I wonder what happened to all those old gems when the solid state TV's, radios and stereo came around ?



The greedy people who now sell NOS tubes online--for wayyy too much money--went around like pack-rats and collected them from the drawers below those tube testers, out of old TV's, from drawers in grandpa's garage, etc.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ProfChaos said:


> The greedy people who now sell NOS tubes online--for wayyy too much money--went around like pack-rats and collected them from the drawers below those tube testers, out of old TV's, from drawers in grandpa's garage, etc.



I wouldn't call every person who went tube hunting greedy. A lot of us have been on tube hunts. I personally sell tubes and I don't think any of my customers would call me greedy. I hope that they would call me fair.

There are sellers that are off the charts, but no one forces you to buy from them. I shop around and buy smart. The price of tubes varies greatly. Right now, tubes are on the upswing and have gone up by around 30 per cent. There are many reasons for this. The bottom line is there is a demand and there are a lot of buyers. The average selling price on EBAY has spiked, especially on choice tubes, Black Plates, old RCA's, Telefunkens, Mullards, Amperex and such. These sellers aren't greedy, they are just benefiting from the active market.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wouldn't call every person who went tube hunting greedy. A lot of us have been on tube hunts. I personally sell tubes and I don't think any of my customers would call me greedy. I hope that they would call me fair.
> 
> There are sellers that are off the charts, but no one forces you to buy from them. I shop around and buy smart. The price of tubes varies greatly. Right now, tubes are on the upswing and have gone up by around 30 per cent. There are many reasons for this. The bottom line is there is a demand and there are a lot of buyers. The average selling price on EBAY has spiked, especially on choice tubes, Black Plates, old RCA's, Telefunkens, Mullards, Amperex and such. These sellers aren't greedy, they are just benefiting from the active market.



Those last tube pics you took were crystal clear persuasion.


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't intend to go tube hunting today, but we were in a town an hour or so away that we don't know that well. We were cruising downtown and there was a nice looking thrift store. They had a Conn organ right up front for only $800 (these people are very optimistic). I'm looking at the thing and walk around back and there's like this slot that you could kinda fit your hand in if you tried. There were AT LEAST six vertical rows of preamp tubes in this beast with six tubes in each row, plus an amplifier on one side that I couldn't see well, possibly with 6V6s. Anyway, I'm standing there trying to get my hand into the back of this thing, just to wipe the dust off the tubes and see what they are of course. I think each row was a different kind of tube. I know that one row was six clear top RCA 12AU7As, and the row that I was messing with when the store person gave me the "Can I help you?" cue to move on was definitely all Raytheons, but I couldn't see a number. I'd heard people say that organs were a good source of tubes, but holy shit, I've never seen so many tubes in one appliance in my life. I doubt seriously if there's enough in there to justify the $800 price tag, but I'd love to see what all is in there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Two of my main sellers do nothing but "pull" tubes from organs. Some have way more tubes than what you saw. Some have up to 60+ 12AX7s in them, plus other 12XX7 tubes. The power tubes can be anything from 6BQ5's all the way up to BP RCA 6L6GC's. Boy, I'd love to rob a big organ. That would be nice. Oh...did I say a lot of the early 60's models used Raytheon BP's?


----------



## RiverRatt

The Ei tubes aren't bad. Their website says they used the old Telefunken machinery and the tube is supposed to be a knockoff of a smooth plate Tele. It definitely leans in that direction. I tried one in V1 and it's a tone I could live with. They are a little more gainy than I like, but the tone is well rounded with nice upper mids and smooth highs. That extra gain seems to make it a good PI candidate, too. It's nice to find good tubes in your own stash.

How do these do with high voltages? Will they burn up quick in V3 and V4?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> How do these do with high voltages? Will they burn up quick in V3 and V4?



V4 should never be a problem. The Ei was a good tube and should not have a problem with V3. As I said, Marshall was glad to have their tubes. All of the 90's Marshall amps had Ei's. Ever see any Marshall's with these?






*Ei EL34's* One of the few EL34 tubes I've ever seen with a tip like a smaller tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Here you go Alan. Another country of manufacture. These are copies of the Sylvania Fat Boys. Made in South Korea for the U.S. Military. Era approximately 1982.*






*South Korean 6CA7's* The Sylvania's have three round holes on the plate.


----------



## racko7566

So heres my starting line up. The gruesome foursome.:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Hello!!! Are you new to the thread? Here is a primo four pack of 12AX7's. These would make any tube amp sing. 

V1-Amperex
V2-Raytheon Black Plate
V3-Sylvania Gray Plate
V4-Sylvania Gray Plate

Super picture by RACKO!*


----------



## solarburn

I like that you guys are posting pics now. Helps getting to know them for everyone.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Here you go Alan. Another country of manufacture. These are copies of the Sylvania Fat Boys. Made in South Korea for the U.S. Military. Era approximately 1982.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *South Korean 6CA7's* The Sylvania's have three round holes on the plate.



I shed a tear...

Cause they're real.

Now that's a fatty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I'd like to have about eight of them. I'll bet they were very well made. They had to be...they were MIL SPEC tubes.*


----------



## racko7566

Sorry for the jumbo pic, I have to figure out how to size them right. Guess I got a little exited.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Sorry for the jumbo pic, I have to figure out how to size them right. Guess I got a little exited.



That's a good pic. Can see everything...

Off to work now. Have a good one guyz!


----------



## racko7566

Don't work too hard solarburnDSL50.


----------



## RiverRatt

What tubes had pinched or seamed tops other than Mullards?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> What tubes had pinched or seamed tops other than Mullards?



Well as I said in other areas of this thread, you have to look at Philips. Philips was the giant towering over everyone else...European or US. Philips had financial interests in just about every tube company. Philips actually bought Amperex in 1955 so they could sell their new line of small signal tubes such as the ECC81, 82 and 83 in the US market. Philips also had a huge share in Mullard. Remember, Philips bought Sylvania in 1984 and the company became Philips ECG. It produced tubes until 1988. The last giant standing.

Amperex and all of the tubes produced under Philips has a pinched top. Now the pinch isn't as coarse as what is on a Mullard, but it is still there. Apparently their technique was a little better than Mullard.

Here is a Canadian Philips/Amperex relabeled as Electrohome. This was a very popular brand in Canada and if you come across any, buy them. Make sure that they have the pinched top.

In the first shot, I tried to get the "pinch" in focus. The pinch is located at a 2 and 8 o'clock position. You can see a white reflection near the 8 o'clock position. Anyway, all Philips, Amperex, MiniWatt, Valvo, POPE, etc. are all made the same.
















In the top picture, you can see the pinch at about 2 o'colock. The yellow tip denotes the tube underwent special testing for medical equipment use.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Here is a page I stumbled across. I love finding stuff like this, because I am a knowledge buff in regards to tubes. What I liked was the Sylvania story. They actually made the best tubes until the early 60's. Their equipment lasted until the 70's, but they had lost the "magic" to make the best tubes. Basically, they say the later stuff (Philips era of ECG tubes) were junk. I'll take that to heart. I have told you that some of the ECG military tubes sound just awful. They are rugged and last forever, but they have no soul.*

History of Tube Companies


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Here is my latest acquisition from EBAY. A real pair of high test, double getter Philips 6CA7's. I got them for about one third of what the online stores want for tubes like this. $104.*

Pair of Philips 6CA7/EL34 Vacuum Tubes - NR - eBay (item 140351951821 end time Oct-19-09 11:35:48 PDT)

Click on the "Enlarge" under the picture to see them in all of their glory.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Here is my latest acquisition from EBAY. A real pair of high test, double getter Philips 6CA7's. I got them for about one third of what the online stores want for tubes like this. $104.*
> 
> Pair of Philips 6CA7/EL34 Vacuum Tubes - NR - eBay (item 140351951821 end time Oct-19-09 11:35:48 PDT)
> 
> Click on the "Enlarge" under the picture to see them in all of their glory.



Well you know I'm chomp'n on the bits to hear how these sound.

Much better price than those stores...

Oh shit those 6CA7EH's are loud! They make lead 2 sound pretty damn good. Usually I don't play on lead 2 but these tubes make it sound raw and fat in a good way. In a naughty way. This is the second day of cranking them and I just got done. I like it without a boost too. Just a slight boost is ok. Any more and it diminishes the great lows coming through. Actually after this last session I'm liking them more. I haven't spent any time on lead 1 yet so I can't comment there. The Clean & Crunch is very warm and fat. So for blues and rock they are delivering some fat raw tones. The women tones are pure sex.

Alright I gotta hit the hay now.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Here is a page I stumbled across. I love finding stuff like this, because I am a knowledge buff in regards to tubes. What I liked was the Sylvania story. They actually made the best tubes until the early 60's. Their equipment lasted until the 70's, but they had lost the "magic" to make the best tubes. Basically, they say the later stuff (Philips era of ECG tubes) were junk. I'll take that to heart. I have told you that some of the ECG military tubes sound just awful. They are rugged and last forever, but they have no soul.*
> 
> History of Tube Companies



This is cool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

* Unfortunately the entire R.C.A. receiving tube division was liquidated in a 12 day auction during the fall of 1976, this basically broke the back of the tube manufacturing industry (and the supporting industries) in the U.S.A.*

*Just doing a lot of reading and it blows my mind that solid state devices had overwhelmed the tube companies since the early 50's. They knew well in advance that tubes would be history. Based on what I have said before, RCA crumbled well before several other giants. When RCA folded, it destroyed the foundation of the remaining tube companies. Like Philips/Sylvania, a few made it to 1988. That seems to be the final year of production for USA tube companies. 1989 was a dead year and that's when everyone was looking at RFT and Tesla. Damn good tubes, maybe not as good as some, but still above average. Solid state amps were not going to hit this part of the world for some time and tube production flourished. I was sad to see RFT, Tesla, Tungsram and Ei fail. If these four companies could have remained, they would be blowing the Russian and Chinese tubes out of the water. We would have decent, good working tubes. One's that would be safe to use in the power section. These were some of the last giants to fall. Some made it as far as 2003.*


----------



## thefyn

I'm open for opinions on current production pres for the 3 pre slots on my 50 watt JCM800.


----------



## racko7566

*Do you think with the rising demand for quality tubes that some small american companies might consider making tubes? Not super mass produced, but more like a specialty product.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's some codes for you tube hounds. They were talking about an FB code on a Mazda tube. I don't know what FB code is...perhaps it
could be related to the Mazda stuff such as date or lot codes.

KB = tube factory

D = Mullard

DA = Mullard but in different location

FE = STC (Standard Telephone and Cables)

Z = M.O.V

DA = Brimar

In the early 1960's STC spun off Brimar to "Thorn-AEI Radio Valves and
Tubes LTD." The history gets a bit complex.

This company made tubes under the Mazda and Brimar names, as well as
Ediswan. FYI, Mazda was a British company for those who don't know, and
in the 1920's Ediswan and Mazda were major makers of radio tubes.
Ediswan being the world's first radio tube maker (A joint effort started
in 1883 by Edison Eletric Light Co and Swan Electric Lighting Co.)

All of the tube makers, all of them, started out as light bulb companies.


Many of Mazda's later tubes were made in French factories and are
excellent. I have some of the 6V6GT's someone mentioned, and they are
very nice sounding, and extremely durable. They are early production
made for the war dept labeled "services plublic guerre". Guerre meaning
war in French.


In fact one of the earliest 12ax7's I've ever seen was a Mazda made in
France. It has the exact same plate as the first Amperex 12ax7 (I'm
talking before Bugle Boy). This Amperex tube is very rare and may not
have even been made in Holland, though the label says it was. The
getter ring of the Mazda is unmistakably Telefunken. It's very nice. 

Mazda 6V6's are probably French, or at least I've heard of French
Mazda 6V6-GT. I did miss British maker, there were Cossor 6V6-G, too,
made in UK, and Cossor did use at least some US numbers, eg: I have
a Cossor 6J5-G here. BTW, the price was 7 bob & sixpence, plus
1 bob & 8d PT, for a total of 9s/2d. Out of a guinea you'd have
recieved 11/10 in change. Got that?

Don't quote me, but I believe Mazda is another head of the
Philips hydra, there was British Mazda, French Mazda, plus
another Belgian cousin, Adzam, which is Mazda spelled
backwards.


I'd bet FIVRE in Italy and Neotron in France made
6V6-G, too. Just to confuse matters further.
ADZAM did make 6SQ7-GT, so I'd bet they made
(or sold) 6V6-G or GT, also.

More INFO on the big headed HYDRA...Philips. Man, they owned everybody.

Tube Questions FAQ


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here's some codes for you tube hounds. They were talking about an FB code on a Mazda tube. I don't know what FB code is...perhaps it
> could be related to the Mazda stuff such as date or lot codes.



According to the Philips book I posted a few pages ago, it most likely stands for:
F = La Radiotechnique, Suresnes
B = February

If you don't have the book (you probably do), it's a great source for factory and type codes.

http://www.audiotubes.com/PhilipsCodeList.pdf


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> According to the Philips book I posted a few pages ago, it most likely stands for:
> F = La Radiotechnique, Suresnes
> B = February
> 
> If you don't have the book (you probably do), it's a great source for factory and type codes.
> 
> http://www.audiotubes.com/PhilipsCodeList.pdf



The one I have is an actual printed copy. I don't know where to look for it though. It was unrevised and didn't have the revision numbers crossed out. It's around here somewhere.

The thing that's blowing my mind is that Philips owned Mullard and Amperex and a whole lot of other tube companies. I did some reading and before Philips bailed out, they were getting a lot of their tubes from Japan. Also, when they sold the rights to Mullard, Tung-Sol and Amperex, they turned around and bought out Sylvania and part of GE. This was the Philips ECG brand. As I said, they were all toast by 1988. The Multi-Headed Hydra was slain. Like they said in one of those articles, most Amperex made in Holland were MiniWatt tubes. The one's made in German were Valvo. Then they had their hands in Mullard, Brimar, Mazda and many others. Where did you say that Amperex tube was made? It could say, Made In Holland," but it could have been made in Japan.

Rule of thumb. Always try to buy tubes prior to 1966. The hanky-panky all started after that. That's why I prefer White Label RCA's over Red Label. With the White Label, you can assure yourself that they were made in the USA. I like the Red Labels, but the country of origin can be misleading.

Even an Amperex Bugle Boy is still a Philips tube, that was probably made at the MiniWatt plant.

Oh I need to add this. Avoid ECG preamp tubes. They were made on worn out Sylvania equipment and they are a poor USA tube. The ECG power tubes, like 6550's, 6L6GC's and 6CA7's are okay, not as good as a 60's model, but could still take high plate voltage.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a strange little tube in a box of TV tubes I left in the garage at some time. It's a 3HA5 labeled NEC (MIJ). It's got flat-sided mica like the RCA 12AU7A tubes. Here it is next to a 12AX7 for comparison. I told my wife that if I could find another one, they'd make a nice pair of earrings. She wasn't impressed.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I found a strange little tube in a box of TV tubes I left in the garage at some time. It's a 3HA5 labeled NEC (MIJ). It's got flat-sided mica like the RCA 12AU7A tubes. Here it is next to a 12AX7 for comparison. I told my wife that if I could find another one, they'd make a nice pair of earrings. She wasn't impressed.



Cute lil' sucker. Earings or necklace FTW!

I like the logo on it.


----------



## RiverRatt

You've gotta wonder if you could use it in a preamp circuit. It looks like a dual triode. That would make a killer OD pedal. I'm pretty sure they are useless, though. You can get 'em for $5.95 at thetubestore.

EDIT: Looks like it might work if I knew anything about tube circuits. I found some info on the Sylvania and Amperex versions of it.

3HA5/3HM5 High-Mu Triode Electronic Tube. This tube was developed as an RF amplifier in VHF television and FM receivers.

Filament Volts: 3.1
Filament Amps: 0.45
Plate Voltage: 200
Grid Voltage: -5.7
Plate Current: 11.5mA
Amplification Factor: 72
Plate Resistance: 5.6Kohms


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was a late design tube. It came out around 1975. Probably why it is an NEC tube. What can I say, the engineers cut it in half, lowered the heater draw and cut manufacturing expenses, but still couldn't compete with transistors that would eventually cost pennies to make. It is a triode and you could use it in a boost pedal, but it's not a dual triode. It would have to be a 9-pin for that. 

Except for differing heater voltages, the 3HA5/3HM5 replaced the 6HM5 which subs for>6HA5>6HK5>6HQ5. All of these tubes used to be made differently. When the tube crisis hit, the tube makers would relabel up to a dozen different P/N's on one tube. This is a perfect example of this. 

If you study the history of tubes, there is more detailed history about the company when it started, then when it went belly up. Some tube companies were in business at the crack of the 1900's. It's hard to believe that once they figured out how to make a light bulb, they realized that they could control current and voltage inside a vacuum. From that came all of these wonderful tubes. 

The last tubes were even smaller than the 3HA5. They didn't use sockets. Each pin had a female lead that went over the pin. They could dress 20 or more of these tubes and the leads would all be Mil Spec. These tubes were used in military applications. Why? Because even though the transistor was out, the military was obligated through contracts to use this technology. A military contract could begin with an approved design in 1974 and not see regular production until 1979. In the world of electronics, five years is a life time. 

You see, I found out by being in the service that there could be better technological items out in the general public, but the military was using yesterday's news. That's because of contracts. I got out of the military in 1980 and the parts room still stocked hundreds of tubes. In 1980, the transistor was already being phased out by IC chips. It's good to know that the military has closed the technological gap.


----------



## thrawn86

Say, just for S&G, what would 60 vintage 12ax7's made by GE fetch?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Say, just for S&G, what would 60 vintage 12ax7's made by GE fetch?



Well, is it a black plate or a gray plate?

Are the date codes still on the tube? If so, was it made before 1966?

Does it have the short plate structure, or the longer one?

Is it a 12AX7 or a 12AX7A?

A regular, long, gray plate GE 12AX7 (pre-1966) is about $15 to $20 on EBAY.

A short, black plate GE 12AX7A pre-1966) is around $25.

The most sought after GE's are called "Five Star."


----------



## thrawn86

Thanx for the ballpark Marty....

I don't know any of that as of yet....a guy has an old Janssen organ fs near here. He says it has 60 12ax7's plus the power tubes and everything lights up, but no sound. I was thinking of snapping it up and gutting it!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Thanx for the ballpark Marty....
> 
> I don't know any of that as of yet....a guy has an old Janssen organ fs near here. He says it has 60 12ax7's plus the power tubes and everything lights up, but no sound. I was thinking of snapping it up and gutting it!!!



I was just talking to Joe about this very subject. If you can get that cheap enough, you may have struck a small goldmine. Depending on the brands and types, I might be interested in buying some. If it has RCA's or Raytheon's in it...ding, ding, ding...you're a winner.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was just talking to Joe about this very subject. If you can get that cheap enough, you may have struck a small goldmine. Depending on the brands and types, I might be interested in buying some. If it has RCA's or Raytheon's in it...ding, ding, ding...you're a winner.



That's how I decided to look for one....

He wants $250 for it. If I could convince him into $100-$150, that's more like it, seeing as how I have to drive about 30 miles to snag it.  Sound like a fair price to offer?


----------



## thrawn86

I was thinking I need to treat it like the guys on Pawn Stars, i.e. "Oh, man, I can't fix this thing and make anything on it. I'll give you $100." 

Well, I'm off to the doctor, again. Wish me well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Everything hinges on the quality and brand of the tubes. Without testing the tubes, they could all be weak. On the other hand, all the tubes could have been changed out and then two years later the organ quit working. 

I would work the angle of, "Nobody wants a big, full-sized organ anymore. They want the new portable one's that have more features." "The organ isn't working and it's hard to say how much it would take to get it running." "I could go $125."

If all of the tubes are good, you could be looking at $1200+.


----------



## RiverRatt

That Conn organ I found last weekend looked like it was all 12AU7s, but there were a buttload of them.

Marty, how do you know that a GE tube is made by GE? I have three GE tubes. One is a Mullard, one is a Sylvania with the stencil font, and one is the GE you sent me (it's the only one that doesn't have the Philips-looking ribbed plates). Did GE use that stencil font on the tube number, too, or does that mean it's a Sylvania?


----------



## MartyStrat54

When he asked me about GE tubes, I "assumed" that they were in fact GE and I based my pricing on such.

Yes, as I said before, GE and Sylvania slept in the same bed. They traded tubes back and forth all of the time.

Here are two classic examples of pure GE tubes.






Not only do they say GE on the tubes, they have the GE date codes and most importantly, the stenciled bold characters. They will always have the part number broken down, such as:

12
AX7
A
USA

And then the series of dots under the USA. If it says "188" on the tube, it's a GE.

That's a short plate 7025 on the left and a long plate 12AX7A on the right.


----------



## RiverRatt

<deleted by Mod)

Marty,
I was told this tube was a Sylvania, but it has no marking on it other than what you see:

12
AX7
A
U.S.A.
° ° °
--°-°--°
--°-°--°
----°-°
----°

Is this a GE? The plates look like one of yours, but I can't tell if it has the half-moon cut out of one side. 

Edit: The bottom four rows of dots form a pattern which I tried to duplicate, but apparently it changes when posted. I tried to fix it using dashes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The GE has those sort of markings. Just like in the pictures I posted up there past the Bozo one's. Did you see them? Sylvania tubes have either "12AX7" or 
"12AX7"
_USA_

Usually it is like a very hard tan colored ink, or it can be an acid etch. 

Like I said, if the tube say 188 on it, it's a GE. If it has the heavy stenciled font and the part number broken down into columns with "USA" and the dots under it, it's a GE.


----------



## RiverRatt

_my_ pic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It has all the correct markings. It's a GE. Yes, the half moon cut out is weird. Maybe a later version and a way to save money?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty and Joe, I have another oddball tube for you guys. I have what looks like a Raytheon BP D-getter that has no marking on it. It looks a lot like the 12AX7 I got from you, Marty. The plates have some differences that you can see in the photo: they are a little wider and rounded on the edges and the staples aren't exactly the same, and it's a triple mica. It takes longer than my other tubes to warm up, and it makes a lot of low-level noise (a series of ffffttt's and crackles) for a few seconds. When it gets going, it sounds smooth with no more noise, and is pretty much equal to a 12AT7 in gain. I've never seen a Ray 12AT7 that didn't have short black or gray plates. Any guesses as to this one? I'm leaning toward a 12AX7 on its last legs. The tube on the right is the known Raytheon 12AX7.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty and Joe, I have another oddball tube for you guys. I have what looks like a Raytheon BP D-getter that has no marking on it. It looks a lot like the 12AX7 I got from you, Marty. The plates have some differences that you can see in the photo: they are a little wider and rounded on the edges and the staples aren't exactly the same, and it's a triple mica. It takes longer than my other tubes to warm up, and it makes a lot of low-level noise (a series of ffffttt's and crackles) for a few seconds. When it gets going, it sounds smooth with no more noise, and is pretty much equal to a 12AT7 in gain. I've never seen a Ray 12AT7 that didn't have short black or gray plates. Any guesses as to this one? I'm leaning toward a 12AX7 on its last legs. The tube on the right is the known Raytheon 12AX7.



Yeah I wonder what that is. Its really similar but like you pointed out there are differences. I went to my drawer just to compare plate size to my BP Brimar AT7 and it doesn't get any shorter plate than it hehe. I didn't realize the plates were so short in it.

Well you experts hurry up and figure it out I'm curious to hear what it is...


----------



## Bobbo

*My JCM800 combo ..... *


----------



## RiverRatt

You said smooth plates, not me. You come on here and threaten people and post random pictures of gear that you claim you own when they are clearly from eBay auctions by known sellers, then you expect us to take you seriously?


----------



## Bobbo

Bobbo said:


> *Yea I posted pictures of tubes Greengirl was selling because I bought them for my amp !!! *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ebay auction pics ...



*Those Mullard's ........Now in my Marshall 50 watt ....... *


----------



## Bobbo

*Here's my B&K 707 tube tester also .. I can take a picture standing next to it flipping you the bird to show I really own it !!!!!!! *


----------



## thrawn86

Marty:

Seco 107B Tube Tester ? Free FedEx Shipping - eBay (item 170396297603 end time Oct-23-09 14:56:38 PDT)

Is this a good tube tester? Seco 107b?


----------



## wegman

Well Marty let me see if I can get things back on a positive note.

I just spent an hour rolling what few tubes I have and I was able to get my sound back. This was something that was very important to me. 

I wanted to thank you for contributions to this thread that gave me the idea of even trying something like rolling tubes as I never would have thought of it on my own. I thought a tubes a tube.

I have learned alot.

Thanks again

John


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Well Marty let me see if I can get things back on a positive note.
> 
> I just spent an hour rolling what few tubes I have and I was able to get my sound back. This was something that was very important to me.
> 
> I wanted to thank you for contributions to this thread that gave me the idea of even trying something like rolling tubes as I never would have thought of it on my own. I thought a tubes a tube.
> 
> I have learned alot.
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> John



That's great, John. Were you able to get your sound with the tubes you had? You don't have any NOS tubes do you? That's what should be your next step. A real good tube in V1 makes a world of difference.

Anyway, I'm glad that you are up and running again.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's great, John. Were you able to get your sound with the tubes you had? You don't have any NOS tubes do you? That's what should be your next step. A real good tube in V1 makes a world of difference.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad that you are up and running again.



No I am still without NOS tubes. I am searching. I pretty much got my tone back with my old tubes and the GTs strategically placed. Like I said I never would have thought of that.

Now I can just imagine what some NOS tubes must sound like. I am confident I am going to score.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's right, you almost got some, but they weren't the right kind. That sux.



Yea. And I think the guy I got them from is on to me. He said he has a tube caddy full of tubes but now all of the sudden he doesn't want to part with any.

Do I read that you sell NOS tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow. Someone's been doing a lot of editing since this afternoon. Marty, did you get a look at my 2 black plates before this thing ran off the rails? 

Wegman, don't give up. My opinion on tone and what tubes will get you there has changed a lot since this thread started. I only had a couple of serviceable old tubes before this. Now I've got a great set of EL34s and preamp tubes in my amp and several spares that sound great, too. Marty is a great guy and will fix you up with some awesome sounding glass. Like I said a few pages back, my amp is an entirely different animal now than it was before. It's as dramatic a change as most mods I've heard, and it's cheaper and reversible, too.


----------



## racko7566

Hey Marty, back to the real topic, I should be getting the 2 rca tubes i have shown you any day now. You probably already have those both, but if not and you would like to try one or both out I could send to you then you can send back after you evaluate them. I would like you to test them just to see if they were advertised truthfully. Rock on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, that's not a problem. I'd be happy to test them for you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It's still here. Go back a page to #1822
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/68542-post1822.html



I'm looking at an O-Getter Raytheon BP with no markings on the tube. It looks like your tube on the right. The tube on the left, down at the bottom of the plate doesn't look the same. The impression is "distorted." This doesn't mean that it's not a Rayteon BP. It could have been made later when the tooling was worn out. They used the same equipment forever. So I would say it is a later version of the BP. Raytheon quit making them in 64 or 65 and then they did a special run in like 1969. It sucks when there aren't any date codes on the tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you have any questions about tubes send me a PM. I'm pretty much going to limit my advice to PM's only.

No sense in telling anyone why? You already know.


----------



## solarburn

Hate to see this go by the wayside...

Hey Marty did you get those fatboys yet and run them?


----------



## Adwex

Marty, please continue the thread, there's lots of good discussion here. Any personal attacks from ANYONE will be dealt with.
Remember, I don't suck up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, c'mon Marty. I've found another organ in a thrift store for $100. If I can move the mountain of shit that surrounds it (sometimes literally - they have a cat) so I can get a look at the back, I'm going to need some help identifying all this glass.


----------



## Bobbo

Adwex said:


> Marty, please continue the thread, there's lots of good discussion here. Any personal attacks from ANYONE will be dealt with.
> Remember, I don't suck up.



*I don't know what sucking up has to do with anything ??? I came in here to discuss preamp tubes as was met with a wall of resistance from Marty and was accused of being a sham and not owning the equipment I stated I did !!! I then defended myself in my own clown like way !!! End of story ...... I would be more than happy to carry on a cerebral tube conversation here ... But I think Marty wants to be the 1 & only tube authority here ....................*


----------



## solarburn

Bobbo said:


> *I don't know what sucking up has to do with anything ??? I came in here to discuss preamp tubes as was met with a wall of resistance from Marty and was accused of being a sham and not owning the equipment I stated I did !!! I then defended myself in my own clown like way !!! End of story ...... I would be more than happy to carry on a cerebral tube conversation here ... But I think Marty wants to be the 1 & only tube authority here ....................*



Bit of a barb in that...

No matter. Lets get back on topic and have no more pissing matches. Regardless of your opine about what Marty wants to be there are a few of us asking him to come back here so we can get on with our Toobing.

I take it someone was asking you to come back too?


----------



## Bobbo

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Bit of a barb in that...
> 
> No matter. Lets get back on topic and have no more pissing matches. Regardless of your opine about what Marty wants to be there are a few of us asking him to come back here so we can get on with our Toobing.
> 
> I take it someone was asking you to come back too?



*Adwex suggested I try and be civil with Marty as the man seems to have a considerable amount of tube knowledge ... So I tried reposting in this thread to see if I would be met with civility or not ... *


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem here. 

Marty does have a *lot* of tube knowledge, but he's never stepped on my toes when I've had an opinion. I think I may have even corrected him a couple of times. Maybe you guys got off on the wrong foot. It happens. Like others have said, this thread is fun, I've learned a lot, and I'd hate to see it die. 

Bobbo, since it appears that indeed you do own some nice tubes (and gear), how about an inventory? What's your favorite V1 tube? We know you've got some nice Tele's and Mullards.


----------



## solarburn

Bobbo said:


> *Adwex suggested I try and be civil with Marty as the man seems to have a considerable amount of tube knowledge ... So I tried reposting in this thread to see if I would be met with civility or not ... *



Well how do the waters feel?

It's open to everyone especially guyz into tubes. 

What is there to wonder about then. Getting attacked? I don't worry about that here. Anyways after being on HCAF for some time my skin is thick and I see when I'm getting baited into a pissing match quicker. I just revert to getting back on topic more readily. I won't duke it out here.

So you have an 800. I forget exactly what preamp tubes but I'm thinking telefunkens right? I haven't tried one of these yet but I want to get one for V1 so I can get a good idea of its character. Whats your preamp section then?


----------



## Bobbo

RiverRatt said:


> No problem here.
> 
> Marty does have a *lot* of tube knowledge, but he's never stepped on my toes when I've had an opinion. I think I may have even corrected him a couple of times. Maybe you guys got off on the wrong foot. It happens. Like others have said, this thread is fun, I've learned a lot, and I'd hate to see it die.
> 
> Bobbo, since it appears that indeed you do own some nice tubes (and gear), how about an inventory? What's your favorite V1 tube? We know you've got some nice Tele's and Mullards.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well how do the waters feel?
> 
> It's open to everyone especially guyz into tubes.
> 
> What is there to wonder about then. Getting attacked? I don't worry about that here. Anyways after being on HCAF for some time my skin is thick and I see when I'm getting baited into a pissing match quicker. I just revert to getting back on topic more readily. I won't duke it out here.
> 
> So you have an 800. I forget exactly what preamp tubes but I'm thinking telefunkens right? I haven't tried one of these yet but I want to get one for V1 so I can get a good idea of its character. Whats your preamp section then?



*I was always a huge fan of the Telefunkens ... But I was a tad unhappy with my tone as of late and decided to give the Mullards a go ... Man am I a happy camper with the change !!! There seems to be a certain tightness and compression with the Mullards that I just wasn't getting with the Tele's ...  ... I currently play a 58 reissue LP through a pretty elaborate pedal setup into my JCM800 50 watter *


----------



## ken361

Im open for suggestions on my JVM for the v1. So far the RFT is the best, didnt care much for the tele's, seemed to the blanket effect(kinda muffled) good crunch but not eq'd great. I have a GE jan, they just dont seem to clear sounding to me. The jvm is a bright sounding amp so the RFT works well, then I have some chinese down the line. Hoping mullard or something else will bring this amp up more. I like old school rock and metal.


----------



## solarburn

Bobbo said:


> *I was always a huge fan of the Telefunkens ... But I was a tad unhappy with my tone as of late and decided to give the Mullards a go ... Man am I a happy camper with the change !!! There seems to be a certain tightness and compression with the Mullards that I just wasn't getting with the Tele's ...  ... I currently play a 58 reissue LP through a pretty elaborate pedal setup into my JCM800 50 watter *



How many preamp tubes does your amp have? I could look back but I'm being lazy hehe. Are you using all Mullard's? I have a Mullard with short grey plates made in 1963 I got from Marty. I like it in V1 or V2 of my DSL. It has great mids and a nice tone to it. Lows and highs are even not dark or toppy. 

I think its an ideal tube for classic Marshall rock tones. I haven't had more than 1 in the mix though cause all I have is one hehe. Thats how I've been doing my preamp. Marty's been sending me NOS tubes and I've been mixing them up and concentrating on V1/V2 combinations to see what I prefer gain wise. I'm not after high gain. Mostly midgain stuff that rolls off nicely with guitar volume and gives me a nice clean/crunch too over on the green channel. So far I'm digg'n what certain combinations do.


----------



## Bobbo

solarburnDSL50 said:


> How many preamp tubes does your amp have? I could look back but I'm being lazy hehe. Are you using all Mullard's? I have a Mullard with short grey plates made in 1963 I got from Marty. I like it in V1 or V2 of my DSL. It has great mids and a nice tone to it. Lows and highs are even not dark or toppy.
> 
> I think its an ideal tube for classic Marshall rock tones. I haven't had more than 1 in the mix though cause all I have is one hehe. Thats how I've been doing my preamp. Marty's been sending me NOS tubes and I've been mixing them up and concentrating on V1/V2 combinations to see what I prefer gain wise. I'm not after high gain. Mostly midgain stuff that rolls off nicely with guitar volume and gives me a nice clean/crunch too over on the green channel. So far I'm digg'n what certain combinations do.



*My JCM has three 12ax7's ... It's the 50 watt ... Yes , I have Mullards in all 3 slots ... *


----------



## RiverRatt

Rice R8 - is it Cherry SB? Mine is a 2006 Iced Tea and doesn't look that red. I'm still trying to build up a collection of pre's. I've got one short plate Mullard and one smooth plate Tele. I think the Tele edges out the Mullard, but it's damn close.


----------



## Bobbo

RiverRatt said:


> Rice R8 - is it Cherry SB? Mine is a 2006 Iced Tea and doesn't look that red. I'm still trying to build up a collection of pre's. I've got one short plate Mullard and one smooth plate Tele. I think the Tele edges out the Mullard, but it's damn close.



*My R8 is an 05 cherry sunburst that has faded just a bit since I first got her ... *


----------



## Adwex

Bobbo said:


> I don't know what sucking up has to do with anything ??? I came in here to discuss preamp tubes as was met with a wall of resistance from Marty and was accused of being a sham and not owning the equipment I stated I did !!! I then defended myself in my own clown like way !!! End of story ...... I would be more than happy to carry on a cerebral tube conversation here ... But I think Marty wants to be the 1 & only tube authority here ....................



Anyone = not just you.

Neither of you are innocent, but the feud is done.
I officially decree that you and Marty are now friends with a common interest, like it or not.
Now, play nice, everyone, and let's talk tubes.


----------



## Bobbo

Adwex said:


> Anyone = not just you.
> 
> Neither of you are innocent, but the feud is done.
> I officially decree that you and Marty are now friends with a common interest, like it or not.
> Now, play nice, everyone, and let's talk tubes.



*Innocent  Never claimed to be that  OK , I'll play nice !!! or at least i'll try *


----------



## RiverRatt

RiverRatt said:


> Rice R8 - is it Cherry SB? Mine is a 2006 Iced Tea and doesn't look that red. I'm still trying to build up a collection of pre's. I've got one short plate Mullard and one smooth plate Tele. I think the Tele edges out the Mullard, but it's damn close.



Of course when I say "Rice R8" I really mean "Nice R8".


----------



## Bobbo

RiverRatt said:


> Of course when I say "Rice R8" I really mean "Nice R8".



*I thought maybe you were typing with an accent ...  *


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> How many preamp tubes does your amp have? I could look back but I'm being lazy hehe. Are you using all Mullard's? I have a Mullard with short grey plates made in 1963 I got from Marty. I like it in V1 or V2 of my DSL. It has great mids and a nice tone to it. Lows and highs are even not dark or toppy.
> 
> I think its an ideal tube for classic Marshall rock tones. I haven't had more than 1 in the mix though cause all I have is one hehe. Thats how I've been doing my preamp. Marty's been sending me NOS tubes and I've been mixing them up and concentrating on V1/V2 combinations to see what I prefer gain wise. I'm not after high gain. Mostly midgain stuff that rolls off nicely with guitar volume and gives me a nice clean/crunch too over on the green channel. So far I'm digg'n what certain combinations do.



I think we like pretty much the same tones from our DSL50s. Have you got a Telefunken yet? I got a medium gain Raytheon BP from Marty and it is a nice tube to pair up with a tele. I like to use the Ultra channel with the gain somewhere between 4 and 6 sometimes. With these two tubes, the Ultra channel is a lot closer to the Classic channel. It's still brighter than the Classic, but not in a bad way.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think we like pretty much the same tones from our DSL50s. Have you got a Telefunken yet? I got a medium gain Raytheon BP from Marty and it is a nice tube to pair up with a tele. I like to use the Ultra channel with the gain somewhere between 4 and 6 sometimes. With these two tubes, the Ultra channel is a lot closer to the Classic channel. It's still brighter than the Classic, but not in a bad way.




I haven't got my tele yet. The BP's I really like. I over spent a bit and had birthdays. Thought I would get 1 this pay day but I have to wait till the 10th again. Hopefully my Tube Broker will save one for me.

I'm stuck playing my Strat right now so all my tones are being tweaked through it. At least it has a Bucker in the bridge. My GT Tele is alot more ballzy though and I will be doing EQ adjustments again once it gets a fret job done on it and I'm play'n it again. I tend to man handle the strings and shave frets off.:eek2:

I've really been focusing on some plexi like tones on mine. I'm trying to get it as warm, organic and dynamic as I can. I've actually been playing on the red channel lead 2 with the amps gain only on about 3 or 4 tops. I EQ it to taste. Using lead 2 gives me alot more warmth right off and having the gain down this low keeps articulation intact. 

Now I'm using the 6CA7EH's for power tubes and I feel they help with articulation as well. They also have great warmth and lowend. EQ adjustments changed a bit across the board when they went in. The RFT has the lower mids in V1. V2 has the JP which focuses more on the upper mids. The combination of these 2 work really good together. I have the RCA in V3 and another RFT in the PI which again I felt more warmth from compared to the LPS I had in it. So I have a warm preamp section, a warm power section and then I have it all going into the 412 of Greenbacks.

Did I mention the green channel is warm an fat? No big surprise there since I'm using that combination of tubes. Guitar roll off is sweet. Wow. It really cleans up alot just by rolling off. Both the red channel and crunch. I turn down the tone pot on the strat to about midway and get this nice cocked warm midgain tone perfect for tasty rock/blues licks. Pick hard the tone breaks up more lighten up and it cleans up.

Usually I play off lead 1 all the time and boost it for extra body and warmth(not gain). Now I'm not boosting lead 2 and I am boosting the crunch channel with either a Bad Monkey, Transparent Overdrive or an OCD. I just got done mixing the BM into the OCD(which is set at low gain)and man did that get hardrockish! It didn't become a mess... 

I really just need to get me a plexi type of amp cause that's the direction I'm going and luv those tones and dynamics.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, someone else is up late, too! I'm still loving the green channel with the RFT EL34s *If* I get a chance to crank it with the crunch off. Dime the gain and get the master up to 4 at least and it's very nice. Damn, I need to get out and play!! These 60-70 hour weeks are killing me. 12 hours Tuesday and 18 today (yesterday?). By the time the weekend gets here I just want to sit on my ass and watch football. 

I like the crunch channel if I can't get it that loud, but I never got into boosting it. I've got a Bad Monkey for the OD and a Rat for heavier stuff, and they sound great with my 5-watt amps, but I just don't feel the need with the Marshall. 

I know what you mean about tube purchases. Mine have ground to a halt, and probably won't get any better until well after Christmas when I've spent all my money on iPods and game systems for the kids. I'm still waiting for an Amperex. That'll give me a good lineup, with the Mullard, Tele, Raytheon, RCA, and RFT, plus a few GE's and Sylvanias. I might even stockpile a few Ei tubes while they're still cheap if I get a chance. I'd like to end up with one of each tube that Philips made.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Wow, someone else is up late, too! I'm still loving the green channel with the RFT EL34s *If* I get a chance to crank it with the crunch off. Dime the gain and get the master up to 4 at least and it's very nice. Damn, I need to get out and play!! These 60-70 hour weeks are killing me. 12 hours Tuesday and 18 today (yesterday?). By the time the weekend gets here I just want to sit on my ass and watch football.
> 
> I like the crunch channel if I can't get it that loud, but I never got into boosting it. I've got a Bad Monkey for the OD and a Rat for heavier stuff, and they sound great with my 5-watt amps, but I just don't feel the need with the Marshall.
> 
> I know what you mean about tube purchases. Mine have ground to a halt, and probably won't get any better until well after Christmas when I've spent all my money on iPods and game systems for the kids. I'm still waiting for an Amperex. That'll give me a good lineup, with the Mullard, Tele, Raytheon, RCA, and RFT, plus a few GE's and Sylvanias. I might even stockpile a few Ei tubes while they're still cheap if I get a chance. I'd like to end up with one of each tube that Philips made.



Normally I'd be work'n right now but I've been sick last couple of days and stayed home. I finally had to get some sleep when we couldn't access the site anymore. I just woke up a bit ago. Me and one my kids got the flu.

I play unboosted too its just that mostly I like to give it just a bit of a kick to the front end for thickening up. I don't goose it too much. The crunch channel I like using pedals on just to get one or 2 more variations. There I will goose it more to change it up. It still sounds all Marshall but it sounds like having another channel too. So in that sense I'm straying from the amps own voice to something else I want. Still Marshally though. 

I will say 1 cool thing I like about the OCD (besides running it from 9v to 18v) is how it cleans up. So that doesn't get lost. I've got to be able to clean up the tone from saturation using guitar volume. I luv to have that kind of dynamic available. I haven't been boosting lead 2 at all. Sounds good without and I found boosting it lost the mojo it has by itself. To my ears lead 1 reacts better to boosting.

I am having a bit of a problem with my DSL at volume though. From about 4 on up it flattens out a bit and loses some gain. Now I have tried numerous tube changes which didn't fix it. It sounds good up until 4 and then loses itself. I've been talking to Jerry(FJA)about it and we have concluded that maybe there is a problem with the MM OT. It was the only thing he didn't change on the amp after he modded it. Mine had previously been modded by Voodoo. 

I thought the problem (he found a couple) would be fixed after Jerry went through and did his thing but apparently the problem lay elsewhere in the amp. There are only certain times I can crank the amp so sometimes I don't catch a problem right off and this one happens or is noticeable to me only when I crank it to 4 and up. 

I've been having the problem since it was first modded at Voodoo which included the MM OT. The issue is not with their circuit mods. The poor soldering and broken traces may have been but that's a non issue now. So I'm not blaming Voodoo for this issue. If its a bad MM OT then MM needs to give me another. We'll see...

I actually believed it was some of my pedals causing it until I plugged straight in and played that way a few times at volume. Ya know ya think its tubes, the cab, guitar, cables, the loop, in the pedal chain or my ears etc. Even after eliminating everything it was still difficult for me to describe or pin down. All I know is it bothered me and it did not have that issue at volume prior to getting modded.

So pretty soon I'll send it back to Jerry and have him check the OT and put a new one in if need be. I'll see what he finds and reports. All I know how to do is retube and bias the amp. After that I pay the qualified hehe. 

I just wish FJA Mods was next door. Shipping to the east coast kicks my ass! I trust Jerry and his work so I do it. I know he will take care of it if humanly possible hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Wow, someone else is up late, too! I'm still loving the green channel with the RFT EL34s *If* I get a chance to crank it with the crunch off. Dime the gain and get the master up to 4 at least and it's very nice. Damn, I need to get out and play!! These 60-70 hour weeks are killing me. 12 hours Tuesday and 18 today (yesterday?). By the time the weekend gets here I just want to sit on my ass and watch football.
> 
> I like the crunch channel if I can't get it that loud, but I never got into boosting it. I've got a Bad Monkey for the OD and a Rat for heavier stuff, and they sound great with my 5-watt amps, but I just don't feel the need with the Marshall.
> 
> I know what you mean about tube purchases. Mine have ground to a halt, and probably won't get any better until well after Christmas when I've spent all my money on iPods and game systems for the kids. I'm still waiting for an Amperex. That'll give me a good lineup, with the Mullard, Tele, Raytheon, RCA, and RFT, plus a few GE's and Sylvanias. I might even stockpile a few Ei tubes while they're still cheap if I get a chance. I'd like to end up with one of each tube that Philips made.



Hahahaha! Yep!


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Im open for suggestions on my JVM for the v1. So far the RFT is the best, didnt care much for the tele's, seemed to the blanket effect(kinda muffled) good crunch but not eq'd great. I have a GE jan, they just dont seem to clear sounding to me. The jvm is a bright sounding amp so the RFT works well, then I have some chinese down the line. Hoping mullard or something else will bring this amp up more. I like old school rock and metal.



I'd try a Mullard. I mean if all you are looking for is to try it in V1 that means you only have to get 1 tube. So money wise the experiment won't cost you a bunch having to replace them all. Have you tried a Raytheon BP yet? If you like the character of the RFT you may like what the BP offers too. 

If it was me I'd try the Mullard and the BP to see what I'd get. I also recommend the Jan Philips 12AX7WA. Great upper mids without being bright or harsh. I seem to always put 1 in my mix either in V1 or V2 where I have it now.

Speculating always kept me guessing. To truly know you have to put the tube in. You could just get 1 for now and then try another down the road. That's how I do it now. The other slots are filled on mine and I don't need to roll them anymore so picking 1 up here and there is easy on the wallet. 

What power tubes are in your JVM? I think power tubes can have a noticeable EQ effect as well. So you could tailor the tone for more lowend, ballzier mids maybe even low mids and then smoother in the high end and not icepicky. I know a couple different power tubes that worked like this in my DSL one set of which I'm using.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Im open for suggestions on my JVM for the v1. So far the RFT is the best, didnt care much for the tele's, seemed to the blanket effect(kinda muffled) good crunch but not eq'd great. I have a GE jan, they just dont seem to clear sounding to me. The jvm is a bright sounding amp so the RFT works well, then I have some chinese down the line. Hoping mullard or something else will bring this amp up more. I like old school rock and metal.



If you have Tele's that are muffled, then there is something wrong with the tube. One side of one of the tubes could have gave out. Remember, a 12AX7 tubes has two triodes and if one side goes out, the tube will still work, but sound like crap. On my tester I have had tubes show 27 on triode one and 11 on triode two. Not a good tube for a guitar. 

Another tube that is probably my favorite is an Amperex tube. You can get a relabeled Amperex for around $25 to $35 dollars on EBAY. These tubes are very sweet sounding throughout the audio frequency range. I especially like the top end of an Amperex, very smooth. This will take the shrill out of a bright amp.

Another tube that smooths out a bright amp is a Raytheon or RCA Black Plate (preferably a pre-1966 tube). This or a 1959 RCA short, gray plate tube. It is very close to the Amperex in sound quality.

The trick of course with any of these tubes is to find one's with the proper gain level. Usually I do not go nuts with the gain on V1 unless I only play tap and shredder styles. I usually go with a medium to hot medium tube for V1. I then put a high gain in V2.

Also, not to be critical. If you have high quality NOS tubes in all slots that's great. Personally, I only use the high dollar one's in V1 and V2. I have Sylvania Gray Plates in V3 and V4. The Sylvania's are very good tubes. In fact they were picked over RCA for many years until the mid 50's. The thing is there are so many of them. So I go with what I know works in V3 and V4 without having to waste the Tele's, Mullards or Amperex's.

I about left this out. The GE JAN. Yes, I have written about this before. Some of the early JAN tubes seem to sound good. However, the newer one's were constructed for high shock applications. The internal parts are beefy and this causes the cardboard sound. I issued a statement here on the tube thread that the JAN and WA style tubes may not have a good sound to them. They are pumped up on EBAY as something exotic, when the fact is they are gov't tubes made for non-guitar amp applications.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'd try a Mullard. I mean if all you are looking for is to try it in V1 that means you only have to get 1 tube. So money wise the experiment won't cost you a bunch having to replace them all. Have you tried a Raytheon BP yet? If you like the character of the RFT you may like what the BP offers too.
> 
> If it was me I'd try the Mullard and the BP to see what I'd get. I also recommend the Jan Philips 12AX7WA. Great upper mids without being bright or harsh. I seem to always put 1 in my mix either in V1 or V2 where I have it now.
> 
> Speculating always kept me guessing. To truly know you have to put the tube in. You could just get 1 for now and then try another down the road. That's how I do it now. The other slots are filled on mine and I don't need to roll them anymore so picking 1 up here and there is easy on the wallet.
> 
> What power tubes are in your JVM? I think power tubes can have a noticeable EQ effect as well. So you could tailor the tone for more lowend, ballzier mids maybe even low mids and then smoother in the high end and not icepicky. I know a couple different power tubes that worked like this in my DSL one set of which I'm using.



winged C's 2 power tubes


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you have Tele's that are muffled, then there is something wrong with the tube. One side of one of the tubes could have gave out. Remember, a 12AX7 tubes has two triodes and if one side goes out, the tube will still work, but sound like crap. On my tester I have had tubes show 27 on triode one and 11 on triode two. Not a good tube for a guitar.
> 
> Another tube that is probably my favorite is an Amperex tube. You can get a relabeled Amperex for around $25 to $35 dollars on EBAY. These tubes are very sweet sounding throughout the audio frequency range. I especially like the top end of an Amperex, very smooth. This will take the shrill out of a bright amp.
> 
> Another tube that smooths out a bright amp is a Raytheon or RCA Black Plate (preferably a pre-1966 tube). This or a 1959 RCA short, gray plate tube. It is very close to the Amperex in sound quality.
> 
> The trick of course with any of these tubes is to find one's with the proper gain level. Usually I do not go nuts with the gain on V1 unless I only play tap and shredder styles. I usually go with a medium to hot medium tube for V1. I then put a high gain in V2.
> 
> Also, not to be critical. If you have high quality NOS tubes in all slots that's great. Personally, I only use the high dollar one's in V1 and V2. I have Sylvania Gray Plates in V3 and V4. The Sylvania's are very good tubes. In fact they were picked over RCA for many years until the mid 50's. The thing is there are so many of them. So I go with what I know works in V3 and V4 without having to waste the Tele's, Mullards or Amperex's.
> 
> I about left this out. The GE JAN. Yes, I have written about this before. Some of the early JAN tubes seem to sound good. However, the newer one's were constructed for high shock applications. The internal parts are beefy and this causes the cardboard sound. I issued a statement here on the tube thread that the JAN and WA style tubes may not have a good sound to them. They are pumped up on EBAY as something exotic, when the fact is they are gov't tubes made for non-guitar amp applications.



marty what do you have in your stash? keep the rft in v1? then get something else?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think the RFT in V1 is a keeper. However, we don't know how it tests. My prior experience with these tubes is they can be on the stout side. Just to fill you in, I use a calibrated B and K 707 with solid state rectification. It measures 12AX7's in the following manner. 22-22 represents a nominal new tube. Again, my experience is that 22 represents like 80 per cent. However, just going up eight points, you are now in high gain country. So, a 30-30 would be a smoking tube for V2. Usually, we run a 24-24 in V1 matched up to the high gainer. Also of note: A 35-35 tube is too much gain for either V1 or V2. You can use a high gain tube like this in V3 or V4. (Some people have tried extra high gain tubes in V1 and V2. Some amps work okay and others do not.)

Also, to catch you up, we all were using a 7025 in V1. This is an extra quiet 12AX7 style tube (a 6681 is another). This was great for a nice clean channel and then the high gainer in V2 would allow you to get the crunch you needed. However, over the past three months, we have all been trying different tubes in V1. V1 is your flavor tube. The sound and tone of this tube will be amplified by the V2 tube. Only a little of the flavor of V2 will be included in the amplified signal. The 7025 is a quiet tube, but it doesn't have the flavor of some of these high end NOS tubes. It's all about what you like to hear coming out of your amp.

What does this mean? It means that most of us have taken the 7025's out of our amps and we are using Mullards, Telefunkens, RFT's, and Amperex tubes in V1. Right now, a lot of the guys here are hot on the smooth plate Telefunken. My favorite is still a Philips/Amperex tube of around 26-26 in V1 and a 29-29 in V2. Keep in mind that the tubes are not perfect. Some will test out at 25-26 and others will test at 24-28. The trick is that if you use the 24-28 tube, the "28" will be the side that feeds into V2 so you will get more gain over the 25-26. You follow me?

Now, about you. You have a V1 and you are looking for a V2. Do you want a 28-28, or do you want the 30-30? How much gain and OD and distortion are you wanting out of your amp? Do you want a tube that will help smooth the top end? Do you feel that your RFT is not contributing to a shrill top end. The RFT's are like a more gritty Mullard. They are great tubes if you are looking for earlier tube breakup. I will take a look at some tubes that I have and see what the test scores are. I will send you a PM with pricing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If it was me I'd try the Mullard and the BP to see what I'd get. I also recommend the Jan Philips 12AX7WA. Great upper mids without being bright or harsh. I seem to always put 1 in my mix either in V1 or V2 where I have it now.



Joe, I don't know what year of JAN tubes you have tried and liked? There are some that do sound good, but these tend to be the earlier 12AX7A's. I posted here to Ken and also on this thread a while back about JAN and WA tubes (they can be either a JAN a JAN WA or a WA). The later versions just do not sound good due to internal construction. 

You may have some older one's. I do. In fact I think I have about 18 to 20 RCA WA's, but they are older tubes. Anyway, I did want to clarify to you about this as I came across some in depth material several months ago and passed it on via the thread.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think the RFT in V1 is a keeper. However, we don't know how it tests. My prior experience with these tubes is they can be on the stout side. Just to fill you in, I use a calibrated B and K 707 with solid state rectification. It measures 12AX7's in the following manner. 22-22 represents a nominal new tube. Again, my experience is that 22 represents like 80 per cent. However, just going up eight points, you are now in high gain country. So, a 30-30 would be a smoking tube for V2. Usually, we run a 24-24 in V1 matched up to the high gainer. Also of note: A 35-35 tube is too much gain for either V1 or V2. You can use a high gain tube like this in V3 or V4. (Some people have tried extra high gain tubes in V1 and V2. Some amps work okay and others do not.)
> 
> Also, to catch you up, we all were using a 7025 in V1. This is an extra quiet 12AX7 style tube (a 6681 is another). This was great for a nice clean channel and then the high gainer in V2 would allow you to get the crunch you needed. However, over the past three months, we have all been trying different tubes in V1. V1 is your flavor tube. The sound and tone of this tube will be amplified by the V2 tube. Only a little of the flavor of V2 will be included in the amplified signal. The 7025 is a quiet tube, but it doesn't have the flavor of some of these high end NOS tubes. It's all about what you like to hear coming out of your amp.
> 
> What does this mean? It means that most of us have taken the 7025 out of our amps and we are using Mullards, Telefunkens, RFT's, and Amperex tubes in V1. Right now, a lot of the guys here are hot on the smooth plate Telefunken. My favorite is still a Philips/Amperex tube of around 26-26 in V1 and a 29-29 in V2. Keep in mind that the tubes are not perfect. Some will test out at 25-26 and others will test at 24-28. The trick is that if you use the 24-28 tube, the "28" will be the side that feeds into V2 so you will get more gain over the 25-26. You follow me?
> 
> Now, about you. You have a V1 and you are looking for a V2. Do you want a 28-28, or do you want the 30-30? How much gain and OD and distortion are you wanting out of your amp? Do you want a tube that will help smooth the top end? Do you feel that your RFT is not contributing to a shrill top end. The RFT's are like a more gritty Mullard. They are great tubes were you are looking for earlier tube breakup. I will take a look at some tubes that I have and see what the test scores are. I will send you a PM with pricing.


 well i like a thick good distortion, kinda 80's 90's metal a clean distortion not muddy of blanket type sounding tube. Mine sounds pretty good but i think v2 needs a good tube because theres a chinese in there. Mullard or amperex go nice wth the rft? Thanks!!


----------



## ken361

30/30 in V2 prob, be good huh?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I don't know what year of JAN tubes you have tried and liked? There are some that do sound good, but these tend to be the earlier 12AX7A's. I posted here to Ken and also on this thread a while back about JAN and WA tubes (they can be either a JAN a JAN WA or a WA). The later versions just do not sound good due to internal construction.
> 
> You may have some older one's. I do. In fact I think I have about 18 to 20 RCA WA's, but they are older tubes. Anyway, I did want to clarify to you about this as I came across some in depth material several months ago and passed it on via the thread.



I'm just look'n foolish tonight hahahaha! Well it looks like I got a couple of the bad ones...From Doug's is where I got them:

JAN Philips 12AX7WA

The last of the 80's military production, has a nice creamy sound when overdriven. Highly recommended, every guitar player should have one.

I actually like them though. I have one in the NT along with an RFT. The DSL has the RFT(V1)and the JP(V2). Tone wise I put them right up there with my other favs Mullard, RFT and BP but I'm only getting the flavor of 1 in the mix. Maybe more than one in the preamp causes problems. I like how their mids mix with other tubes. 

Now I feel like my ears are no good...

I take it you've probably tried them and hated it? 

Maybe I shouldn't mention the JPs anymore so's I don't influence someone to buy a questionable NOS tube.

That's alot of money for one.


----------



## Led Hendriani

Any one know if I can use a 5687 as an exact replacement for a 12AX7 without having to modify anything?
Thanks!


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm just look'n foolish tonight hahahaha! Well it looks like I got a couple of the bad ones...From Doug's is where I got them:
> 
> JAN Philips 12AX7WA
> 
> The last of the 80's military production, has a nice creamy sound when overdriven. Highly recommended, every guitar player should have one.
> 
> I actually like them though. I have one in the NT along with an RFT. The DSL has the RFT(V1)and the JP(V2). Tone wise I put them right up there with my other favs Mullard, RFT and BP but I'm only getting the flavor of 1 in the mix. Maybe more than one in the preamp causes problems. I like how their mids mix with other tubes.
> 
> Now I feel like my ears are no good...
> 
> I take it you've probably tried them and hated it?
> 
> Maybe I shouldn't mention the JPs anymore so's I don't influence someone to buy a questionable NOS tube.
> 
> That's alot of money for one.



I have one too lol, I liked it in one of older combo amp but it made too much noise in the v1 and i didn't care for it too much in the marshall. some of the old tubes just sound muddy not clear you know! like marty says you have the gains in the right sections of v1 and v2 i guess


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> I have one too lol, I liked it in one of older combo amp but it made too much noise in the v1 and i didn't care for it too much in the marshall. some of the old tubes just sound muddy not clear you know! like marty says you have the gains in the right sections of v1 and v2 i guess



I actually find it clear and articulate. I even put it in my HT Dual and it improved the tone there I thought. 

I don't know what to say guyz...

I will qualify that I like those other tubes too so my ears can't be total failure.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I actually find it clear and articulate. I even put it in my HT Dual and it improved the tone there I thought.
> 
> I don't know what to say guyz...
> 
> I will qualify that I like those other tubes too so my ears can't be total failure.



you probley have a good one! when you buy used you never know what you get, could always send it back lol. I think some tubes work well in some amps and not in others.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Led Hendriani said:


> Any one know if I can use a 5687 as an exact replacement for a 12AX7 without having to modify anything?
> Thanks!



This tube has a different pin out than a 12AX7 (9A pin out). The 5687 (9H pin out), although a very stout tube voltage wise, only has an amplification factor of 17.5, or about what a 12AU7 has. This will neuter your sound.

What are you trying to accomplish? Maybe one of the guys can give you some advice.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> you probley have a good one! when you buy used you never know what you get, could always send it back lol. I think some tubes work well in some amps and not in others.



I appreciate it ken. Will call it an anomaly. That should cover the 2 that I think rock hehe. 

Now on with the Mullards, BP's, RCA's, RFT's, Tele's etc...


----------



## MartyStrat54

More Telefunken Smooth Plate versus Telefunken by RFT Smooth Plate. Hey they both sound great!
















Real one on the left, East German model on the right. Funny, the real Tele doesn't say, "Made in W. Germany," but the RFT (E. Germany) says West Germany on the tube. Watch me put this peanut under one of these three cups. Now watch closely and tell me which cup the nut is under.


----------



## RiverRatt

Led Hendriani said:


> Any one know if I can use a 5687 as an exact replacement for a 12AX7 without having to modify anything?
> Thanks!



No, the pinout is different.

EDIT: Sorry for the redundant post - these guys are fast.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now a tube that I would like any information on. A Raytheon "Registered" tube. Has a tight mounted, slant D getter (Note skewed getter flash on tube.) Has the number 122 printed on the tube. Raytheon's EIA Code is 280, so this is some kind of lot number. The only other number on the tube is, "7025." 

The plate looks more like a European rib design. Normal Raytheon plates are flat on the ends and then there is a small raised area in the middle with the raised area sticking outwards. This plate is not like that. It is wide.





















How about it Alan. Any suggestions? Did Raytheon make a Slant D Getter? This is the only Raytheon Registered tube that I have and the only one I've seen.


----------



## solarburn

Ooooh! Tube porn!

I'm ready for mine on November 10th. I must try the TeleFunken.

You still have it tucked away right........?


----------



## MartyStrat54

In reference to the JAN and WA tubes...a while back Joe and I were amazed at this tube. It is the Holy Grail of JAN tubes. Made by Raytheon. This tube was packed on 8/63. Dark Gray Plate style tube, 12AX7. Tests 30-31. The price for one of these is $200. I got two of them on EBAY for $55. One reads lower at 26-24.

1963...it was a very good year!











Stenciled at the top inside of the box is "ARDM."


----------



## RiverRatt

I've looked at a lot of D-getter tubes trying to find a match for the Sonotone clear tops. Am I seeing seams on top?? It looks like an Amperex. I'm looking through the tubemonger stuff to see if I can find that picture again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ooooh! Tube porn!
> 
> I'm ready for mine on November 10th. I must try the TeleFunken.
> 
> You still have it tucked away right........?



I've sold all the Tele's except for one smooth plate that tests 11-14. I wanted to save one with a lot of snap left in it. Sounds good, doesn't it? 11-14?

Joe, I have a boatload of Tele's, just waiting to hear from you. Smooth, ribbed (like a special Trojan) or RFT Smooth Plates. Maybe you should try one of each? You might end up with the RFT/Tele. They seem to be a little more aggressive. How does that sound? One of each and you can send the two back you don't like. Or would that be the one back that you don't like, or would that be I'm keeping all three?

Didn't you want a hot medium like a 26-26, or do you want like a 24-24?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've sold all the Tele's except for one smooth plate that tests 11-14. I wanted to save one with a lot of snap left in it. Sounds good, doesn't it? 11-14?
> 
> Joe, I have a boatload of Tele's, just waiting to hear from you. Smooth, ribbed (like a special Trojan) or RFT Smooth Plates. Maybe you should try one of each? You might end up with the RFT/Tele. They seem to be a little more aggressive. How does that sound? One of each and you can send the two back you don't like. Or would that be the one back that you don't like, or would that be I'm keeping all three?
> 
> Didn't you want a hot medium like a 26-26, or do you want like a 24-24?



I think I'll need to try both. The 24-24 and the 26-26. I think I better try an RFT version along with a Tele. Wait there are 3 versions due to one being ribbed too. Yep better send all 3 options and then I'll pick 1...most likely.


----------



## solarburn

Well guyz I have to go watch a scary movie with me daughter so I'll be away for awhile.

Marty don't be selling those tubes while I'm gone...

And don't be talk'n about how I like bad tone cause I use sucky tubes either!

Later dudes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think these are the ones I was thinking about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've looked at a lot of D-getter tubes trying to find a match for the Sonotone clear tops. Am I seeing seams on top?? It looks like an Amperex. I'm looking through the tubemonger stuff to see if I can find that picture again.



Pardon me for a moment while I take this boot to my ass. Yes, it is the pinch top on the tube. I forgot to put it down when posting. It has the type of pinch that you would see on an Amperex versus a Mullard. The Amperex pinch top is usually put together with tighter tolerances. 

So we have the pinch top, the Euro style plates. Maybe Raytheon had Amperex do a run of slant tops for them. It's definitely a well built, high quality tube. It's not a Raytheon. Although I would like to have about twenty of these. This one is a screamer at 32-35.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think these are the ones I was thinking about.



These are very close. They use a modified paddle getter. The basics are there and other than the "O" cut-out on the Raytheon, the plates are very similar. I would have to say that it is probably a "Philips" made tube. This would cover the 14 or so companies that Philips owned over in the UK and Europe. I would also say that this is probably a pre-1968 tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> These are very close. They use a modified paddle getter. The basics are there and other than the "O" cut-out on the Raytheon, the plates are very similar. I would have to say that it is probably a "Philips" made tube. This would cover the 14 or so companies that Philips owned over in the UK and Europe. I would also say that this is probably a pre-1968 tube.



I noticed that cutout. Isn't that common to most Raytheons? 

I found a forum where the OP is asking about a Raytheon Registered tube that also has Made In Great Britain printed on it. They are speculating that it is a Brimar.

Audiophiletalk - help with 12ax7 / ecc83 stash?


----------



## Led Hendriani

MartyStrat54 said:


> This tube has a different pin out than a 12AX7 (9A pin out). The 5687 (9H pin out), although a very stout tube voltage wise, only has an amplification factor of 17.5, or about what a 12AU7 has. This will neuter your sound.
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish? Maybe one of the guys can give you some advice.



I did not really check it out too much. Someone posted on a site in order of least to most gain 12AX7 family and the 5687 was after the 7025. So I looked it up and found NOS that were originally $35 on sale for $10 since some have microphonic issues.

I guess that 7025 it is then. I really don't want to comb through 63 pages...
Could someone please tell me what are the lowest output numbers that I am needing for an ICBM?

Thanks again!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I noticed that cutout. Isn't that common to most Raytheons?
> 
> I found a forum where the OP is asking about a Raytheon Registered tube that also has Made In Great Britain printed on it. They are speculating that it is a Brimar.
> 
> Audiophiletalk - help with 12ax7 / ecc83 stash?



I looked at six Raytheons from different eras and none of them had the cut-out. I will have to pull out some different tubes tomorrow and compare them.

I went to that site, but I got bored real quick. I want info on a slant top. Oh I'm sure that we will get it figured out. Like the guy on the said on the Audiophile Talk...I installed a pair of my Amperex branded Mullards into my system. Yes, Philips even owned Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> 30/30 in V2 prob, be good huh?



Yeah, based on that Fender and your pickups, I'd go with something in that area. I get some time tomorrow and I will PM you some prices.


----------



## ThreeTone

Great thread, thanks to everyone who posted here. I've learned alot.

I'm retubing my amp as I'm just not satisfied with it. It's an '83 2203 that was changed from 6550s to EL34s years ago. Running into a 1960A with 65's. Also have an Ultimate Attenuator. Currently I have EH 34s and a Telefunken in V1, and Sovtek WAs in V2 and V3. I suspect the Sovteks are a big part of my problem, but be that as it may, that's what's in there.

Guitars listed in my sig.

What I don't like: Too bright, and not articulate enough when the pre-amp is anywhere past noon. A bit muddy when set to higher gain levels. Especially with the Les Pauls.

What I would like: Richer harmonics, more warmth/smoothness (less bright), and better clarity and articulation when driven. Increased touch dynamic and sustain.

I should have posted here before I ordered them, but currently have 3 NOS RFT 12AX7s and Winged =C= 34s on the way.

My plan is to use the RFTs in all preamp slots, but I have the Telefunken I can use and roll it through to see if it sounds better to me in one of the spots.

Looking for opinions on what I should use to achieve my goals. Any reason RFTs in all slots wouldn't get me there? Should I be looking at something else for V3? 

From what I've read I should be looking for high output in V3 to drive the power section, or do I misunderstand? 

I'm hoping that I put the new stuff in, bias it, and I'm there. But if it falls short of my expectations I'm wondering what my next step will be.

Warm, smooth, harmonic laced, touch sensitive overdrive with increased clarity/articulation is what I'm chasing. If anyone has a 2203/2204 and feels this is what their amp delivers I'd love to know what's in your amp! Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

V2 and V3 aren't going to affect the tone much, if any. IMHO, I'd save the RFT's and get a Sylvania for V2 as Marty suggests. The Sovtek should be fine for V3. Some people like a high-gainer here, others like a lower gain tube. Some of us have even used a 12AT7 for a PI. It's hard to say what will sound good to you. I'm using a fairly high-gain Ei ECC83 for a PI right now.

The RFT should help with the treble. I think everyone here likes the Raytheon black plate, too. I've got a Mullard that's not high gain that I like in V1, too. It's similar to my Telefunken, but with less top end.


----------



## ThreeTone

Thanks, yeah I know others can't predict what will sound good to me, but with so many options it's nice to hear what is working for others in the same circuit, at least as a frame of reference.

One thing I've read is that CP tubes vary much more than NOS, especially when it comes to output, sometimes half of spec. And the PI tube is what 'drives' the power tubes. So if I'm looking for power tube overdrive the V3 slot is important to achieve this. Is this correct? V3 is the PI in the 2203 circuit?

Here's the stuff I was reading http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf

And here, (output stuff near bottom) http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/pastinfo.html

Which is part of this site index2

A 12AT7 has almost 10 times the output of a 12AX7 according to that info. I would like to push the power section, but not increase clean headroom. So my thinking (maybe flawed?) was a NOS 12AX7 in V3 would likely give me better output than a CP tube, but not increase clean headroom like a 12AT7. Of course with the variance from tube to tube this is more or less generally speaking. 

I've owned this amp since new in '84 and only now am I taking the time to learn how to make it sound the way I want!


----------



## RiverRatt

The 12AT7 has about a 70% amplification factor, where a 12AX7 has 100%. A 12AT7 won't clean your amp up, though. It will reduce the overall volume a little and give the amp different dynamic properties. To me, a 12AT7 is a little more muffled with less highs. You can't really overdrive the power tubes with the PI, though. Its purpose is to split the signal and invert one side before it sends it on to the power tubes, so that one tube (or pair of tubes) is receiving the rising side of the waveform while the other is receiving the falling side of the wave.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Three Tone--Your particular 800 has three preamp tubes. However, V2 and V3 are not likely to make noticeable changes to your tone. You can run a couple of Sylvania's in those two positions. You have less tweakability than say a DSL or TSL. You only have V1 making the gain/flavor and this is the total derived from both triodes inside of V1. As Ratt stated, you may want to try a Black Plate in V1. I would recommend one that is a little hotter than normal based on what sounds you are looking for. Most of us use a Raytheon Black Plate.

Now, you are getting the RFT's in. Did the seller provide testing on these tubes? Are you going to be able to tell one tube from another? These three tubes most likely will not be the same. There's no telling what the tubes will read at. If you like the RFT in V1, I would save the other two as spares and get me some GE's or Sylvania's for the other two slots.

"From what I've read I should be looking for high output in V3 to drive the power section, or do I misunderstand?" (Your quote.)

By experimenting, we have found that you can use a very high gain 12AX7 in the PI without any problems. The difference between an average tube and a very high gainer is barely detectable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Three Tone--You have had this amp for a while. It is in that area where you might have to consider other aspects of your amp. For instance, you have never had the power filter caps changed. These play a role in how the amp will sound. 

Also, how old is the Telefunken? If you have used it a lot, it is probably worn out and will not give a good sound.


----------



## wegman

I just got a line on some one tossing a tube organ.

What are the chances of me scoring some 12AX7's out of it?

Thanks


----------



## ThreeTone

Thanks, no testing done on the pre-amp tubes as far as matching. They were purchased from kcanostubes.com. I imagine I'll be able to tell them apart since I suspect they will all be labled differently but we'll see. 

The telefunken is old, but how old I can't say, I've had it for 25 years I'd say, but it hasn't been in the amp for maybe half of that time. I have no tube tester. I will say it sounds better than the Sovtek WAs in V1!
How worn it may be I just don't know.

There's an old TV repair shop near my home (just moved to CT and found it), and I plan to pop in there and see if they have any tubes they're looking to sell, maybe I'll get lucky.

Otherwise I'll roll the preamp tubes and see if I can get what I'm looking for. I'll look into getting some black plates as well. 

I had the caps done when the amp was converted to 34s, about 10 years ago. Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.


----------



## solarburn

ThreeTone said:


> Thanks, no testing done on the pre-amp tubes as far as matching. They were purchased from kcanostubes.com. I imagine I'll be able to tell them apart since I suspect they will all be labled differently but we'll see.
> 
> The telefunken is old, but how old I can't say, I've had it for 25 years I'd say, but it hasn't been in the amp for maybe half of that time. I have no tube tester. I will say it sounds better than the Sovtek WAs in V1!
> How worn it may be I just don't know.
> 
> There's an old TV repair shop near my home (just moved to CT and found it), and I plan to pop in there and see if they have any tubes they're looking to sell, maybe I'll get lucky.
> 
> Otherwise I'll roll the preamp tubes and see if I can get what I'm looking for. I'll look into getting some black plates as well.
> 
> I had the caps done when the amp was converted to 34s, about 10 years ago. Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.



I like sampling tubes in V1 so I get most of the tube's character going through my amp. It gives me a great idea of the gain level and tone. Maybe get V2 & your PI(V3)set with known decent tubes like and RCA12AX7A(V2) and whatever in the PI. Try the PI with what you have available.

Since you are getting 3 RFT's try all three at once and see. Then set V2 & V3 up with a pair of tubes that are balanced(not matched)frequency wise and leave them iin those slots. Now focus on V1 changing tubes in and out of it and listen how each tubes's character comes through. 

V1 tells the most about a tube IME. I dig an RFT in V1 and think its a great slot for it. I like a combination after that which mix well and give me a well balanced EQ section. Also gain textures I like. Personally I like warm, fat, thick mids and highs that are a bit restrained cause I have a bright amp as it is. I love solid lows and mids that punch.

For example on my amp I have 4 preamp slots. I have known good tubes in V3 and the PI. I didn't worry about them being my main tone contributers like V1 & V2. I've done so much rolling that V3 & V4 just need to be decent well balanced tubes although V3 on my amp needs to be able to handle higher current due to being a cathode follower stage. The NOS cover that issue.

I've hit my V1 & V2 with low gain, medium gain and high gain. I know what I like in mine now. Anytime I want to gauge a tubes character I throw it in V1. Tells me alot right off. Then in V2 it goes just to see. I'm not speculating here I actually put them in and find out. So once you get them tubes in roll them but keep in mind what slot has the biggest input on your overall preamp tone. Once you know this rolling becomes more precise and fruitful.

What slot would that be?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Slant Getter Raytheon. Probably an Amperex or Philips tube. Later Amperex, non-Bugle Boy has a cut-out in the plate like the Raytheon. Everything looks the same except for the slant top getter.

EDIT: Third picture down is the one that tells all. The Amperex only has cut-outs on the outer plates. The Mullard design has the cut-out going through the outer and inner plates. This is what the Raytheon has. See post below.
















Good shot of plate cut-outs. Same style mica spacers and plate design.
I took a look at some various Mullards and they all had the cut-out and the same plate design.






The RCA Mullard is on the left. It has the identical internal structure as a late design Amperex (which could have been made by Mullard). The Raytheon is very similar to both. Then I start thinking about the Mullard equipment that went to Japan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Got it. It's a Mullard. The Mullard has the cut-out on both sides of the plate as the Raytheon. The Amperex only has cut-outs on the outer plates. God, everything else is identical. It took looking at these tubes for a while.











Oh, BTW, the Mullard is labeled RCA. I bought eight of these a while back. Tested very tight. I've sold most of them already. I think I have 3 or 4 left. They all tested at around 30-30. The Raytheon tested at a stout 32-35.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I just got a line on some one tossing a tube organ.
> 
> What are the chances of me scoring some 12AX7's out of it?
> 
> Thanks



As long as they are dumb and just throwing it away you'll probably score. Make sure you get to it before a tube hunter. Let me know if you get some, as I was still planning on getting a few together for you.

Note: Grab the speakers too. If they are 10 or 12-inch, they are usually alnico magnets, they might even be bell speakers (the bell is a cover that went over the magnet and makes the speaker look like a bell). 

Depending on the size and quality of the organ, there can be a whole bunch of tubes in there. The power amp could have several types of power tubes, as the manufacturer usually had bi or tri-amp systems powering a two or three-way speaker system.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. Got it. It's a Mullard. The Mullard has the cut-out on both sides of the plate as the Raytheon. The Amperex only has cut-outs on the outer plates. God, everything else is identical. It took looking at these tubes for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, BTW, the Mullard is labeled RCA. I bought eight of these a while back. Tested very tight. I've sold most of them already. I think I have 3 or 4 left. They all tested at around 30-30. The Raytheon tested at a stout 32-35.



the one on the left a bad tube ? see the ring on the top, its taking a dive


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> As long as they are dumb and just throwing it away you'll probably score. Make sure you get to it before a tube hunter. Let me know if you get some, as I was still planning on getting a few together for you.
> 
> Note: Grab the speakers too. If they are 10 or 12-inch, they are usually alnico magnets, they might even be bell speakers (the bell is a cover that went over the magnet and makes the speaker look like a bell).
> 
> Depending on the size and quality of the organ, there can be a whole bunch of tubes in there. The power amp could have several types of power tubes, as the manufacturer usually had bi or tri-amp systems powering a two or three-way speaker system.



Yes, they are just tossing it. They just want it gone from their property.

I personally haven't seen it I was just told about it. 

I didn't even think about the speakers, good call.

As always thanks for the info Marty. 

When I get it if I score I will send some pics of the tubes

JOhn


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> the one on the left a bad tube ? see the ring on the top, its taking a dive



No it's fine. What we were trying to establish is what company made the tube on the left. It says, "Raytheon," but as we have found out, it's made by Mullard. The ring is called the "getter." This particular tube has a slant top getter. That's the way it was made.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Yes, they are just tossing it. They just want it gone from their property.
> 
> I personally haven't seen it I was just told about it.
> 
> I didn't even think about the speakers, good call.
> 
> As always thanks for the info Marty.
> 
> When I get it if I score I will send some pics of the tubes
> 
> JOhn



Man I hope you score big time. It could be an early Christmas for you. I'll help you out however I can.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> No it's fine. What we were trying to establish is what company made the tube on the left. It says, "Raytheon," but as we have found out, it's made by Mullard. The ring is called the "getter." This particular tube has a slant top getter. That's the way it was made.



marty I have to roll now , tlk sat ok if u can


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. Got it. It's a Mullard. The Mullard has the cut-out on both sides of the plate as the Raytheon. The Amperex only has cut-outs on the outer plates. God, everything else is identical. It took looking at these tubes for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, BTW, the Mullard is labeled RCA. I bought eight of these a while back. Tested very tight. I've sold most of them already. I think I have 3 or 4 left. They all tested at around 30-30. The Raytheon tested at a stout 32-35.



Iv just picked up a Brimar 12AX7 on ebay.
It has the exact same construction as that Amperex you have.

It has a slanted getter.... the getter flash is also slanted

Holes on the outside of the plates not the inside

Has the same cut-outs on the plates and are laddered.

Its says Made In England BVA
4N22162

Any Ideas?

Alex


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll help you out however I can.



Thanks a bunch Marty because I will need it.

You rock.

John


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some pictures to post before I go out an get a hollow wienie. That doesn't sound right. How'd that old joke go? Why can't warlocks get witches pregnant?
Because they have crystal balls and hollow wienies. 

Hey...let's not forget the great sounding USA tubes. Here's a trio of 1959, white letter, RCA long gray plates. Yeah, you don't need a European tube to get great sound. These sound sweet in V1 with a sound similar to an old Mullard with a little more bottom end. Top end is smooth, not harsh. This tube will keep up with almost anything from overseas. 1959 is considered to be one of the best years for any American made tube. If you find some of these, you've found gold. These are premium priced RCA's. Highly desirable by collectors. Other than the early RCA Black Plates (which are usually worn out), these are the most expensive RCA 12AX7's on EBAY. 
















Remember, when it comes to USA tubes, the older the better, as long as the tubes test good. 12AX7's from 1955-1966 are the best. 90 per cent of the R and D on a 12AX7 was done before 1952. Improvements were made and of course the most notable was the 12AX7A tube. Many claim these are as quiet as a 7025. I actually think that they just labeled 12AX7A's as 7025's a little later down the line. Most of these tubes have both numbers on the tube. By 1966, there was basically zero R and D going into tubes. The equipment used to make modern tubes was anywhere between 30 to 40 years old. The machines were worn out and the tubes weren't as precise as the older one's. A lot of people do not realize that the tube equipment was used until it was worn out. Very few tube manufacturers replaced their tube line with new equipment. The lines were mostly up and running by 1935. Think about that? The 12AX7 was introduced in November 1947. During this same year, the transistor was invented. So if you know how scientist's are, they wanted to do research on the transistor and not the tube. The tube or valve was time tested and served the public very well until the transistor was deemed reliable. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the creative juice was pulled from the tube lines and put over in the R and D for transistors. If you look at a timetable of all of this, it amazes me that the quality was still in the USA tubes until 1966. After that, it gets very fuzzy about who did what. 

One thing is for certain. Three beautiful 1959 RCA's would make any amp happy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Iv just picked up a Brimar 12AX7 on ebay.
> It has the exact same construction as that Amperex you have.
> 
> It has a slanted getter.... the getter flash is also slanted
> 
> Holes on the outside of the plates not the inside
> 
> Has the same cut-outs on the plates and are laddered.
> 
> Its says Made In England BVA
> 4N22162
> 
> Any Ideas?
> 
> Alex



That's sweet Alex. Do you think you can post some quality pics showing different angles? Just so you know, I feel that the Raytheon is a slant top getter Mullard. However, I would love to see this Brimar.


----------



## D.Dailey

About 215 miles to the oppisit side of the state I live in , is a small but interesting museum.
I learned alot about microchip design and the Transistor, and how they relate.
Without the Vacume Tube, we would not have alot of what we do today in computer's.
What amaises me , is alot of what we have there ,is very much because of a guy with little more than a second grade education..
At a very young age his teachers run him off and told his mom ,there would be little hope for him..
She was a pretty stuborn lady and who once was a teacher herself,,and tought him at home..
But he is a very interesting piece of American History.. 

Detailed Biography - The Edison Papers

http://edison.rutgers.edu/brfchron.htm

http://www.charlesedisonfund.org/TomEdisonBio/ch10.html



You might find him interesting...


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's sweet Alex. Do you think you can post some quality pics showing different angles? Just so you know, I feel that the Raytheon is a slant top getter Mullard. However, I would love to see this Brimar.



Yeah will do later on today... tried before but camera low on battery and picture quality is blurred

Youve really got me into these NOS tubes Marty haha

Im selling all my six Chinese Marshall ECC83's on ebay now... all my good ones that is. The rest are microphonic so iv kept them and im gonna disect em


----------



## ken361

marty was passing out tubes for halloween lol


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, Does your mystery Raytheon have a D-getter or a halo? In a couple of pics it looks like a D, and in the last one it looks round.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, Does your mystery Raytheon have a D-getter or a halo? In a couple of pics it looks like a D, and in the last one it looks round.



It has a slanted "O" Getter. Other than the getter, it looks identical to the Mullard. However, I want to see what the Brimar looks like. (Of course, Mullard made tubes for Brimar, as well as numerous other Philips owned companies.)


----------



## Procter2812

Ahh iv tried three times to upload this photo!! Error message every time

Il try tomorrow because im still fucked from yesterday


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It has a slanted "O" Getter. Other than the getter, it looks identical to the Mullard. However, I want to see what the Brimar looks like. (Of course, Mullard made tubes for Brimar, as well as numerous other Philips owned companies.)



Ok. I was thinking in the first photo that it was a D-getter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are just dropping in, don't let the size of this thread get you down. There are several of us here that would like to help you out with your tube problems. We would like to hear what type of amp you are running and what kind of tone you are trying to get.

If you have made tube changes on your own, we would like to hear your results.

We also love pic's of old Mullards, RCA's, Raytheon's, Amperex, RFT, Tesla and other vintage tubes.

If you are new to tubes, or an old pro at rolling...we'd love to have you onboard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I love playing the blues, classic rock and up to hard rock. Classic stuff I like are early Sabbath, Iron Maiden, ACDC, early Rush, early ZZ, Molly Hatchet, Nugent, GNR etc. You know, mostly Marshall tunes he he.
> 
> I like my amp to be harmonically rich, singing feed back, responsive to touch with good sustain and articulate. Can clean up with guitar volume roll off. So I look for tubes that help create these things in my DSL50.
> 
> The preamps I'm using now are a nice fit for what I want especially from clean to midgain tones. The CV4024 has a gain factor of 60 compared to a 12Ax7 at 100. It made the gain more articulate and didn't neuter the gain of the amp by any means. The AC5's just sound good and the LPS makes a great PI.
> 
> With this combo the amps EQ actually works when adding highs, mids and lows. That's another tell tale sign of having a grouping of tubes that work well with my amp and what I'm after.
> 
> To finish off my tone stack I always boost to get a better texture of gain, not more gain. Mostly to add some body to the tone that the amp isn't capable of producing on its own. That's how I roll my DSL and I love the amp.



---TUBE FLASHBACK MOMENT---

So here is a post from page 3. It will be the first installment of TUBE FLASHBACK MOMENT. I will go through this snake of a thread and pull out old posts so others can reflect on them or make new comment. 

In this case, I'll ask Joe how is amp sounds now as compared to when he first joined the thread? What was it like when you realized that a better sound was available with the right NOS tubes? Give us a short run down on what's happened to your tube line up since 4/03/2009?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> ---TUBE FLASHBACK MOMENT---
> 
> So here is a post from page 3. It will be the first installment of TUBE FLASHBACK MOMENT. I will go through this snake of a thread and pull out old posts so others can reflect on them or make new comment.
> 
> In this case, I'll ask Joe how is amp sounds now as compared to when he first joined the thread? What was it like when you realized that a better sound was available with the right NOS tubes? Give us a short run down on what's happened to your tube line up since 4/03/2009?



This was a great idea Marty. Well since then I have a completely different line up in the preamp as well as the power section.

My goal or characteristics of what I want remain the same. I think looking back that AT7 in V1 helped in regards to cleaning up the gain and guitar roll off. The AC-5(Chinese 12AX7)in V2 was a decent tube gain/tone wise and since it was in the second slot only so much of its character was adding to the overall preamp tone. The mids and lower frequencies aren't as clear as my newly added NOS offerings though. V3 & V4 don't matter as much in tone shaping(unless they were turds)so they were good enough not to harm the tone but finish it off well. 

CLean articulate gain is what I got. The only thing it was missing was some lowend and thick mids and a bit of punch which was what the pedal was helping with. Of course the crunch wasn't as crunchy either but surprisingly sounded good. Clean was nice. This was not a high gain set up.

With the additions of the RFT, BP, Mullard, RCA, 7025's I was able to get a warmer, fatter bottom and smoother topend. Again the EQ adjustments actually make a difference without going from one extreme to another turning the knob. Also was able to get a bit more meat out of the mids I think due to some emphasis on the lower mids. The RFT and Raytheon BP were responsible for that. Plenty of lowend available. Mullard has great mids.

Generally I boost the crunch channel mostly. I have switched lately to playing lead 2 at a lower gain setting and it sounds good. I'm not boosting it. Before it was a bit of a flubby and not so articulate voicing. Pretty sure I'm getting more clarity and warmness out of the line up I have:

V1-RFT/7025/JP(Interchange)
V2-JP/BP/Mullard/RFT(Interchange)
V3-RCA
PI-RFT/LPS(if I want to save my NOS)
Power tubes-6CA7EH's

I like to play hard rock and under. I don't go very heavy much so I don't set my amp up for that. I don't worry about a tube not being able to handle the cathode follower(V3)any more although any tube can fail. The NOS are built to handle the current though.

If I had to play current production tubes only I could make do cause I've learned alot about mixing tubes for the sounds and dynamics I want. For cleans, blues, midgain tones I really think the NOS shine through. For high gain stuff who gives a shit about dynamics use whatever.

I will say with the right power tubes you can add to the amps warm, fat bottom, thick meaty mids and restrained smoother highs even more.

Disclaimer:

I may have imagined all this in my head and convinced myself tubes matter...or not.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, look what popped up on eBay:

Sonotone 12AX7 ECC83 Rare Side Getter Stereo Tubes USA - eBay (item 400078435193 end time Nov-10-09 10:49:21 PST)


----------



## Procter2812

The pictures are bad quality but my camera is messed up 

Its a nice sounding valve. Hope you can tell what it is by the pictures!


----------



## MartyStrat54

She must have recently posted that listing, because I went through the 12AX7 listings yesterday, up to and including auctions that close in 6 days. I did find several pairs of Sonotones made in W. Germany. These were top getters. Nice eye that you spotted this. If it is already at $32 with six days to go, it might be a high dollar tube. Carefully guard yours, or I may snag them.

Audiophiles with tube headphone amps, just love to have a drawer full of exotic 12AX7's. Headphone amps only use one tube. You can hear every detail of the tube, including the background noise. I would love to find me a tube headphone amp. If you see one, please bring it to my attention. Some are very high priced for no more than what they are. Of course, the audiophiles are using $500 dynamic headphones and $2000 electrostatics. 

I may look around for a tube microphone amp. because using it with a good tube tester, you got all the bases covered. This amps will weed out a microphonic tube quickly.

Anyway, if she was selling a pair, I might be interested. I will watch this listing just to see how much $$$ she gets out of this tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> The pictures are bad quality but my camera is messed up
> 
> Its a nice sounding valve. Hope you can tell what it is by the pictures!



Take a look at your camera. It should have different shooting modes. For tube pic's you want the "Close Up" mode. Select it and then use something to steady your camera. I use a small, thick book. I'm trying to take pictures using the same method each time, so I get better each time I take pictures. 

Look on your camera and see if it has different shooting modes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This was a great idea Marty. Well since then I have a completely different line up in the preamp as well as the power section.
> 
> My goal or characteristics of what I want remain the same. I think looking back that AT7 in V1 helped in regards to cleaning up the gain and guitar roll off. The AC-5(Chinese 12AX7)in V2 was a decent tube gain/tone wise and since it was in the second slot only so much of its character was adding to the overall preamp tone. The mids and lower frequencies aren't as clear as my newly added NOS offerings though. V3 & V4 don't matter as much in tone shaping(unless they were turds)so they were good enough not to harm the tone but finish it off well.
> 
> CLean articulate gain is what I got. The only thing it was missing was some lowend and thick mids and a bit of punch which was what the pedal was helping with. Of course the crunch wasn't as crunchy either but surprisingly sounded good. Clean was nice. This was not a high gain set up.
> 
> With the additions of the RFT, BP, Mullard, RCA, 7025's I was able to get a warmer, fatter bottom and smoother topend. Again the EQ adjustments actually make a difference without going from one extreme to another turning the knob. Also was able to get a bit more meat out of the mids I think due to some emphasis on the lower mids. The RFT and Raytheon BP were responsible for that. Plenty of lowend available. Mullard has great mids.
> 
> Generally I boost the crunch channel mostly. I have switched lately to playing lead 2 at a lower gain setting and it sounds good. I'm not boosting it. Before it was a bit of a flubby and not so articulate voicing. Pretty sure I'm getting more clarity and warmness out of the line up I have:
> 
> V1-RFT/7025/JP(Interchange)
> V2-JP/BP/Mullard/RFT(Interchange)
> V3-RCA
> PI-RFT/LPS(if I want to save my NOS)
> Power tubes-6CA7EH's
> 
> I like to play hard rock and under. I don't go very heavy much so I don't set my amp up for that. I don't worry about a tube not being able to handle the cathode follower(V3)any more although any tube can fail. The NOS are built to handle the current though.
> 
> If I had to play current production tubes only I could make do cause I've learned alot about mixing tubes for the sounds and dynamics I want. For cleans, blues, midgain tones I really think the NOS shine through. For high gain stuff who gives a shit about dynamics use whatever.
> 
> I will say with the right power tubes you can add to the amps warm, fat bottom, thick meaty mids and restrained smoother highs even more.
> 
> Disclaimer:
> 
> I may have imagined all this in my head and convinced myself tubes matter...or not.




Thanks for the quick response Joe. If you are new here to the thread, or just popping in, Joe had current production (CP) tubes in his DSL50 about six or seven months ago. Joe started rolling NOS tubes in the spring of this year. Over the months, there have been a lot of different tubes acquired by Joe. We all were doing extensive tone tests. We all started out with a base set of tubes and from that point, we all went with our own individual tastes. It's good to have enough good tubes to set a standard. You can then work from the standard and this is what Joe has done. I know for a fact that he has put each and every one of his tubes in his amp in different positions and played his guitar through each setup. A real hardcore tube roller.

Believe it or not, one of the main things you want to do is get a solid V3 and V4 in your amp. This is part of the "standard set" I was talking about. Once you do this, then you can roll tubes in V1 and V2.

Joe recently switched over to Electro-Harmonix 6CA7's. These are a direct replacement for the EL-34. Joe will also be testing some different types of Telefunken 12AX7's in his amp and making a decision about them. I hope that he will give us an update later on when his testing is completed.

Once again, thanks Joe, for the response.


----------



## MartyStrat54

FYI-I'll be in Oklahoma for the next two days. I catch up with you all when I get back. Carry on.


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> The pictures are bad quality but my camera is messed up
> 
> Its a nice sounding valve. Hope you can tell what it is by the pictures!



I'll venture a guess that it's a Brimar, but it's hard to tell. Does it have any codes etched in just above the base of the tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> FYI-I'll be in Oklahoma for the next two days. I catch up with you all when I get back. Carry on.



If you are still around, check this out. I think I found your mystery Raytheon. It looks like a Valvo ECC83 made in Hamburg, Germany. Go here and look at the Hamburg tube with the 45˚ getter about halfway down the page on the left.


----------



## Procter2812

Yeah its a Brimar but i was just wandering who made it for Brimar... I have a Mullard made Brimar. but this one is different to my other two in V1 and V2 ( Mullard Yellow label and Brimar (mullard yellow label)

Its a good valve. But looks like Martys Amperex.


----------



## RiverRatt

There was some re-branding that went on with all tube companies, but yours looks like it's a genuine Brimar. It's got a Brimar date and type code on it. The 4N2 is the week/month/year of manufacture (although I have no idea what month N is). 2162 is one of Brimar's codes for an ECC83 and probably has something to do with the type of plates and construction used.


----------



## van

Nice freaking thread! Great Info Marty and guys!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> If you are still around, check this out. I think I found your mystery Raytheon. It looks like a Valvo ECC83 made in Hamburg, Germany. Go here and look at the Hamburg tube with the 45˚ getter about halfway down the page on the left.



That's what I like about you Alan...you got it bad. You're a tube-aholic. You nailed that slant top getter. Of course Valvo is a Philips brand. I would really like to try out a Valvo, Miniwatt and Amperex in a headphone amp and see how they sound. I would have to say similar.

Once again, great job of nailing that down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Yeah its a Brimar but i was just wandering who made it for Brimar... I have a Mullard made Brimar. but this one is different to my other two in V1 and V2 ( Mullard Yellow label and Brimar (mullard yellow label)
> 
> Its a good valve. But looks like Martys Amperex.[/quote]
> 
> Man, you have some really good tubes now. You've come up the food chain. How's that Marshall sounding now? Great job.


----------



## RiverRatt

If you think that's something, check your email. I have a line on someone who has a line on a bucketful of 1955 RCA side-getter 12AX7s, and I can't afford them!!!! At least I have my two. I wish I could post the info here, but that probably wouldn't be cool. The person who has them says they are the best USA 12AX7 tube ever made and compares them to Tele 803s and Hamburg Valvos. Not bad company to be seen with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got your email and I responded back to you. Please reply.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, you have some really good tubes now. You've come up the food chain. How's that Marshall sounding now? Great job.



Ahh man its sounding awesome!

The EL34's have worn in now and its not as harsh sounding. Real smooth Overdrive and i can actually use the EQ now!

Im gonna keep looking around for some NOS bargains for later on beacuse I use my amp loads now with being in 2 bands now.

Iv finally found my tone 

Alex


----------



## ken361

Procter2812 said:


> Ahh man its sounding awesome!
> 
> The EL34's have worn in now and its not as harsh sounding. Real smooth Overdrive and i can actually use the EQ now!
> 
> Im gonna keep looking around for some NOS bargains for later on beacuse I use my amp loads now with being in 2 bands now.
> 
> Iv finally found my tone
> 
> Alex


how long did it take to break in?


----------



## Procter2812

ken361 said:


> how long did it take to break in?



Quite a while... id say 30 hours or so at least of use.

The amp quit on me in April after about 15 gigs.

I sent it back and they sent it back with a new quad of EL34's. When i got it back it sounded good, just a bit harsh, gritty and trebley.

So played it for the next 10 gigs or so and i noticed that every 5 gigs or so i had to increase the treble from 4 to around 6/7.

Then i stuck the Mullards/ Brimars in and the tone just went so much smoother and I could use the presence control. The Chinese stock ECC83's were gritty and quite harsh on your ears at times so i had to dial back the presence.

No iv got the EQ at

Presence: 4
Bass: 5
Mids:6
Treble:6
Pre-Amp: 6/7

Then i use a tube screamer infront.
I tend not to use too much pre-amp volume because i like to crank the master then get the tube-screamer infront and it kicks ass!


----------



## RiverRatt

I was reading the new Guitar Center holiday catalog this morning. The new Spider Valve amps feature a 12AX7 40 watt preamp with a 6L6 power amp. How many 12AX7s would it take to put out 40 watts? At least 40? 

I'm glad for the comic relief. I used to have to wait for the Sears Christmas catalog to find humor in musical instruments. If only GC would put "...for ease of playing" after every little incidental feature.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I was reading the new Guitar Center holiday catalog this morning. The new Spider Valve amps feature a 12AX7 40 watt preamp with a 6L6 power amp. How many 12AX7s would it take to put out 40 watts? At least 40?
> 
> I'm glad for the comic relief. I used to have to wait for the Sears Christmas catalog to find humor in musical instruments. If only GC would put "...for ease of playing" after every little incidental feature.



there last amp had 2 6l6's and 2 preamps nothing big!


----------



## RiverRatt

But a 40 watt preamp? Man, that's blasting.


----------



## wegman

I got to the tube organ and I scored heavily!!!! 23 12AX7s. There are 9 RCA, 3 GE, and the rest say Baldwin on them.

I will try to post some pics but I don't expect them to be good.

I am so excited to try these.

JOhn


----------



## Procter2812

wegman said:


> I got to the tube organ and I scored heavily!!!! 23 12AX7s. There are 9 RCA, 3 GE, and the rest say Baldwin on them.
> 
> I will try to post some pics but I don't expect them to be good.
> 
> I am so excited to try these.
> 
> JOhn



Bullseye!


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I got to the tube organ and I scored heavily!!!! 23 12AX7s. There are 9 RCA, 3 GE, and the rest say Baldwin on them.
> 
> I will try to post some pics but I don't expect them to be good.
> 
> I am so excited to try these.
> 
> JOhn



Holy cow, John! What I'd give for a find like that. The ones that say Baldwin could be almost anything. If you look at all of the Baldwins, are they the same? Same plate size, same color, same/similar codes? If any/all of them have black plates, they are probably Raytheon Black Plates, as Raytheon made a load of tubes for Baldwin. If they are gray plates, they are probably Sylvania's.

Try to get the clearest pictures taken that you can, showing at least three sides of the tube and any info on the tube. We should be able to tell you what you have. You don't have to do all of them at once. Just group the tubes into similar lots and then we just need one picture of a tube from each lot.

What color is the ink on the RCA tubes...white or red?

Also, just by chance, do the GE's have black or gray plates?

Were there any power tubes in the amp? Speakers? Let us know, I love it when someone makes a big score.

Looking forward to seeing what you got.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Holy cow, John! What I'd give for a find like that. The ones that say Baldwin could be almost anything. If you look at all of the Baldwins, are they the same? Same plate size, same color, same/similar codes? If any/all of them have black plates, they are probably Raytheon Black Plates, as Raytheon made a load of tubes for Baldwin. If they are gray plates, they are probably Sylvania's.
> 
> Try to get the clearest pictures taken that you can, showing at least three sides of the tube and any info on the tube. We should be able to tell you what you have. You don't have to do all of them at once. Just group the tubes into similar lots and then we just need one picture of a tube from each lot.
> 
> What color is the ink on the RCA tubes...white or red?
> 
> Also, just by chance, do the GE's have black or gray plates?
> 
> Were there any power tubes in the amp? Speakers? Let us know, I love it when someone makes a big score.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing what you got.



I will try to get some pics tonight. 

The RCA's have orange or red printing on them.

The GE's plates appear to be grey

I have a couple Baldwin tubes that definetly have black plates.

There are 3 Gl6l6 tubes still in the organ I didn't grab along with a bunch of 12AU7 and other small tubes.


----------



## ken361

wegman said:


> I got to the tube organ and I scored heavily!!!! 23 12AX7s. There are 9 RCA, 3 GE, and the rest say Baldwin on them.
> 
> I will try to post some pics but I don't expect them to be good.
> 
> I am so excited to try these.
> 
> JOhn


I seen on craigs list a few times people selling hammond organs, good score for tubes~!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I want to welcome some new guys to the thread, Ken, Procter and John. Please feel free to ask any questions. I would like to see you post your comments about NOS tubes and the tones you get with them out of your amp.

Again welcome to the thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Joe, I sent you a PM about the Tele's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Joe, I sent you a PM about the Tele's.



Oh yeah Dadio! That's what the boy likes to hear.

How about that score with the Organ...

Nice go'n wegman! Can't wait to see and hear what all you have. Right off it sounds good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'm going gaa-gaa over the Wegman score. God, I'd love to find an all tube organ.


----------



## ken361

Info on tubes!
VACUUM TUBES
http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/12ax7.html


----------



## RiverRatt

That is an incredible score. I have dreams about stuff like that. I think it's time to start looking for old tube organs. If only I'd known about this years ago.. I can remember my parents' church trying to give an old organ away just to get rid of it. 

Joe, are you about to get some Tele's? The one I got from eBay tested at around 70%, but it's the best sounding preamp tube I've got. The are a lot cheaper that way.

Marty, are you picking up any of those old RCAs??? I'll try to get those pics I've found on here soon. I think I left them on my computer at work. The last 3 days have been a blur.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I'm going gaa-gaa over the Wegman score. God, I'd love to find an all tube organ.



I know where an organ is. I don't know if it's tube or not, but it looks pretty old. The people who have it priced it to me at $100, but it's in an old antique/thrift store that looks like it should be condemned. I'm going to have to move a few years worth of junk and cat turds to get to it. Seriously. You need a gas mask in this place. I'm going to try to get by there this Saturday.


----------



## ken361

I have 2 teles's for sale 30 a piece


----------



## wegman

Hey guys. 

Here is picture of the score. 

View attachment 1484


There were a few 12AU7's mixed in so the actual take was 18. I am thinking I may have missed a few. I can go back at any time and raid the thing again. I left ALOT of tubes I assumed were 12AU7's as I was pressed for time. There was also 3 6l6s I did not grab. Didn't have time to check the speakers. It will have to wait for another raid. I was shaking I was so excited grabing these things. What a rush.

I can't get any decent up close pictures as my camera does not have a close mode so that sucks.

I am trying to come up with at least some kind of shots. 

I am going to be experimenting tonight after the kids go to bed. Can't wait to see what these sound like.

This was a Baldwin organ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> That is an incredible score. I have dreams about stuff like that. I think it's time to start looking for old tube organs. If only I'd known about this years ago.. I can remember my parents' church trying to give an old organ away just to get rid of it.
> 
> Joe, are you about to get some Tele's? The one I got from eBay tested at around 70%, but it's the best sounding preamp tube I've got. The are a lot cheaper that way.
> 
> Marty, are you picking up any of those old RCAs??? I'll try to get those pics I've found on here soon. I think I left them on my computer at work. The last 3 days have been a blur.



I just sent Joe 8 Tele's to kick around. Glad to hear that even a 70 per cent tube still kicks ass. The one's I sent Joe are stouter than that.

Yes, I am waiting to find out the test results. He is going to test six for me. That's a lot of dough for a USA tube, but they are supposed to be one of the best. 1955 tubes. I was one year old when they were made. Happy Birthday.


----------



## solarburn

I love the name of the organ find "The wegman score" hahahah!

It sounds like a historical event!

I put the BP back in V2. Sounds great! Its good to take time away from a tube, roll some others and then find that it still is the fav in that slot when ya come back to it.


----------



## ken361

hate when your amp sounds good one day then the next not too good!


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> hate when your amp sounds good one day then the next not too good!



The BP ousted my JP and I went back and forth with the Mullard, BP and JP. I'm right in front of the cab sitting down so I can make out the character changes.

The overall tone definitely changes when I stand and move just a bit. These tubes need careful scrutiny. It is that close regarding desirable attributes that are best for what I want. Its a win/win with any of these but it comes down to the finest of detail here. 

I swear the BP has built in sag. It gives me that chewy feel when soloing. It has the ballz in the mids I love. Thick but articulate. It also goes into musical feedback better due to the great sustain.

I'm wowed all over again.

The others are no slouches by any means though. That's why I roll them back in when I want to.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The BP ousted my JP and I went back and forth with the Mullard, BP and JP. I'm right in front of the cab sitting down so I can make out the character changes.
> 
> The overall tone definitely changes when I stand and move just a bit. These tubes need careful scrutiny. It is that close regarding desirable attributes that are best for what I want. Its a win/win with any of these but it comes down to the finest of detail here.
> 
> I swear the BP has built in sag. It gives me that chewy feel when soloing. It has the ballz in the mids I love. Thick but articulate. It also goes into musical feedback better due to the great sustain.
> 
> I'm wowed all over again.
> 
> The others are no slouches by any means though. That's why I roll them back in when I want to.



sit in front and blast that biotch its the only way!


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> sit in front and blast that biotch its the only way!




What?

I'm fooking Deef!:eek2:


----------



## wegman

My amp will never I repeat never have another CP tube placed in it again.

Holy Geez what a difference with vintage tubes. Every problem and complaint I had with my amp is history. I didn't get to do to much but I rolled 3 tubes in V1, an RCA, a Baldwin with black plates, and a GE. All 3 smoked what I had in there and when I say smoked I mean blew them completely away. Out of the 3 it was a toss up between the Baldwin black plate and the RCA. 

The notes are now jumping off the strings and the clarity I was so desperately seeking I now have in spades. The notes are singing again. 

Unbelievable.

I will post more when I get to V2

Here is the best picture I can get of an RCA




I don't know if anyone can make heads or tails out of it.

I want to thank all you guys who have contributed to this thread. The wegman score is thanks to you guys educating me about tubes and where to look.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Like I said, if the Baldwins are Black Plates they are Raytheons. Now you have a bunch of them. It would be nice to test them so you could sort out the V1's from the V2's. I have a real nice tester. If you feel you need some of them tested, I don't charge forum members for testing. You just pay the shipping. Something to think about if you want to sell some on EBAY.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Like I said, if the Baldwins are Black Plates they are Raytheons. Now you have a bunch of them. It would be nice to test them so you could sort out the V1's from the V2's. I have a real nice tester. If you feel you need some of them tested, I don't charge forum members for testing. You just pay the shipping. Something to think about if you want to sell some on EBAY.



Actually the guy who set the whole thing up has a tube tester so I can have him do it but I do thank you for the offer.

What classifies a tube as a V1 or V2 tube?

Could you make anything out of the picture I posted or not really? It's the best I can do.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wegman, I'm getting an error when I try to view your attachment. If you want a quick and easy way to post pictures in the forum, there are several free photo hosting sites. I use Photobucket. I don't know if it's the best or not - it was the first one I tried. It's easy to use, though, so I'm happy.

Marty, I've been giving my RCAs a workout since I found out how valuable they are. These are the ones you tested. I'm using the 24-23 in V1 and the 23-28 in V2. I haven't used them since I started getting the Mullards and Tele's. Man, they aren't bad at all. I think they are a little smoother than the Mullard and Tele. It's not a question of which sounds better, because they all sound good. I think they are a more rounded tone with warmer mids and tighter lows, where the European tubes have more snap and the upper mids are more pronounced. 

I made a couple more pictures of them. I'm getting better with the camera  











Here are a couple of the pics I've found on the internet (apologies to greengirl for "borrowing" her pic). Notice the differences. The tops on mine are smoky, the getter faces the wrong way, and the 12AX7A label on the one on the right is NOT a typical RCA font. Also, mine are both marked as 12AX7As, but all the others I've seen are either 7025s or 12AX7s. I'm really interested in seeing what yours look like when you get them. There had to have been at least two runs of these, and I'll bet the ones you are getting are older than mine.











Guys, if you run across any of these, buy them. Apparently they are very rare, and they sound great. This is the only source I've ever found:

Sgt. Overdrive's Vacuum Tubes

This is Terry Kilgore's website. He compared these tubes to Telefunken ECC803s and Hamburg Valvos. Wait until Marty gets his and see what he thinks. They are a bit pricey.

EDIT: One other weird thing - my tube on the right has two mica spacers on top, but the left one has 1. Was that a design choice or an accident?


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Here is the best picture I can get of an RCA
> View attachment 1485



That one I can see. Congratulations, man. That's got to be *the* score of the year. The only tubes I've found this year are a handful of AT7s and one GE/Sylvania 6BQ5.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt,

Let me know if you can see this one.


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> RiverRatt,
> 
> Let me know if you can see this one.
> 
> View attachment 1486



Oh yes. Excuse me for a moment...... 

Man, that is incredible. Those are some nice ones. I'd like to see a closeup of the GE tubes on the left. The plates don't look like GEs at all. I'm guessing they are from the mid 1960s. GE rebranded a lot of tubes - I've got one Mullard that's GE branded. Do any of them have seams on the top? This is my GE Mullard that I bought off eBay a month or two ago:






Those Baldwin tubes in the middle are RCAs. The 12AX7 logo is an RCA logo.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> RiverRatt,
> 
> Let me know if you can see this one.
> 
> View attachment 1486



I see a couple of Black Plates in there.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I see a couple of Black Plates in there.



Yeah. Third from the right looks like a Raytheon. The fourth from the left, I don't know. It may be an RCA, but I don't have anything to compare it to.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> EDIT: One other weird thing - my tube on the right has two mica spacers on top, but the left one has 1. Was that a design choice or an accident?



I'll bet you a six pack of cyber brew that the tube machine dropped two spacers and that was allowed on the production QC (of course we know that in the case of 5751's, the triple mica spacers makes them more desirable).

You have a good eye for detail Alan. I have a needle in a haystack that I need you to find for me.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Oh yes. Excuse me for a moment......
> 
> Man, that is incredible. Those are some nice ones. I'd like to see a closeup of the GE tubes on the left. The plates don't look like GEs at all. I'm guessing they are from the mid 1960s. GE rebranded a lot of tubes - I've got one Mullard that's GE branded. Do any of them have seams on the top? This is my GE Mullard that I bought off eBay a month or two ago:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those Baldwin tubes in the middle are RCAs. The 12AX7 logo is an RCA logo.



That's a nice looking tube. Sweet.

I am sorry but that is the best pic I can get. Any closer and they look like my earlier shot of that RCA. My digital camera bites.

I don't see any seems in the top of any of them.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I see a couple of Black Plates in there.



Is that good?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Black Plates are tubes that have "black plates." Mainly made by RCA and Raytheon, but I have others as well. A black plate is a "flavor" tube. If you put it in V1, it will usually add more bottom end and mids to your overall sound. They are very nice sounding tubes.

Also, you asked about V1 and V2? V1 adds the most flavor, but it is generally a medium to medium-high gain tube. V2 is the high gain tube. It only adds a little flavor to your overall sound. 

Say you take a Mullard in V1 and a Black Plate (BP) in V2. The overall tone of the amp will come from the Mullard. The BP will add to it, but the main, overall tone will be the Mullard. In this case, the Mullard will be a medium gain tube and the BP will be the high gain tube.

Tube testers are all different. The best are mutual conductance testers. Emission testers are cheaper, but the test results can be poor. On my tester, 22-22 is the minimum good for a 12AX7, but 30-30 is a real high gainer. So only 8 points make the difference between a medium gain and a high gain. Keep in mind that there are two circuits in a 12AX7. Triode A and Triode B. I do have tubes that will read higher than this. However, I have used a 35-35 tube in my amp (and also a forum member's amp) and the tube just flat out overloads the circuit and causes feedback and squeal. Therefore, I try not to use anything higher than 32-32. Keep in mind that in reality, both sides of the tube are not always perfect. They may read 24-27, or 29-31. This is normal and the guitar amp can handle a little imperfection.

If you do a little back reading, you will discover some sections where we did some extensive tube rolling. Every tube has its own sound. RCA Short Gray Plates will sound different than RCA Long Gray Plates. A 1966 Mullard will sound different than a 1962 Raytheon Black Plate. 

Some of us have rolled enough tubes to be able to recall what a certain tube sounds like. I find the differing sounds highly addictive. As stated numerous times, you want a solid V3 and V4. Once you get this accomplished, then you can take a V1 and work several tubes in your V2 slot. Once you've done that, then you can roll a half dozen tubes in V1 until you find your favorite.

With V2, V3 and V4 selected, you can try out any new tube and hear the differences. Most of the guys know that I like an Amperex in V1 with a stout BP in V2. 

The nice thing about tube rolling is that after a while, you should have a great stash of tubes. When you are satisfied with your sound, then you take the next step...NOS power tubes.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Black Plates are tubes that have "black plates." Mainly made by RCA and Raytheon, but I have others as well. A black plate is a "flavor" tube. If you put it in V1, it will usually add more bottom end and mids to your overall sound. They are very nice sounding tubes.
> 
> Also, you asked about V1 and V2? V1 adds the most flavor, but it is generally a medium to medium-high gain tube. V2 is the high gain tube. It only adds a little flavor to your overall sound.
> 
> Say you take a Mullard in V1 and a Black Plate (BP) in V2. The overall tone of the amp will come from the Mullard. The BP will add to it, but the main, overall tone will be the Mullard. In this case, the Mullard will be a medium gain tube and the BP will be the high gain tube.
> 
> Tube testers are all different. The best are mutual conductance testers. Emission testers are cheaper, but the test results can be poor. On my tester, 22-22 is the minimum good for a 12AX7, but 30-30 is a real high gainer. So only 8 points make the difference between a medium gain and a high gain. Keep in mind that there are two circuits in a 12AX7. Triode A and Triode B. I do have tubes that will read higher than this. However, I have used a 35-35 tube in my amp (and also a forum member's amp) and the tube just flat out overloads the circuit and causes feedback and squeal. Therefore, I try not to use anything higher than 32-32. Keep in mind that in reality, both sides of the tube are not always perfect. They may read 24-27, or 29-31. This is normal and the guitar amp can handle a little imperfection.
> 
> If you do a little back reading, you will discover some sections where we did some extensive tube rolling. Every tube has its own sound. RCA Short Gray Plates will sound different than RCA Long Gray Plates. A 1966 Mullard will sound different than a 1962 Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> Some of us have rolled enough tubes to be able to recall what a certain tube sounds like. I find the differing sounds highly addictive. As stated numerous times, you want a solid V3 and V4. Once you get this accomplished, then you can take a V1 and work several tubes in your V2 slot. Once you've done that, then you can roll a half dozen tubes in V1 until you find your favorite.
> 
> With V2, V3 and V4 selected, you can try out any new tube and hear the differences. Most of the guys know that I like an Amperex in V1 with a stout BP in V2.
> 
> The nice thing about tube rolling is that after a while, you should have a great stash of tubes. When you are satisfied with your sound, then you take the next step...NOS power tubes.



Wow Marty thanks for the info.

So your saying that V2 V3 and V4 should be selected first? Then start rolling V1 and that is how you get maximum tonal difference between tubes?

I started tonight then completely ass backwards. I started with V1 and then went to V2 and V3.

Once again thanks for the info.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Wow Marty thanks for the info.
> 
> So your saying that V2 V3 and V4 should be selected first? Then start rolling V1 and that is how you get maximum tonal difference between tubes?
> 
> I started tonight then completely ass backwards. I started with V1 and then went to V2 and V3.
> 
> Once again thanks for the info.



Just get some decent tubes in V3 & the PI.

Then roll the shit out of V1 & V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I forget that with you we are looking at an 800 amp and your model has three preamp tubes. 

Okay. The down side of this arrangement is that V1 "is" your flavor plus gain tube. Your other two tubes do not really contribute to the tone of your amp.

What I usually tell 800 owners is to use the highest gain tube in V1 that you like. You will want a tube that will give you a clean sound when you roll the volume knob down on your guitar, but will kick you in the seat of your pants when turned up full blast. 

So, for V1 you will want a tube that not only sounds good, but has the right amount of gain for your playing style.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I forget that with you we are looking at an 800 amp and your model has three preamp tubes.
> 
> Okay. The down side of this arrangement is that V1 "is" your flavor plus gain tube. Your other two tubes do not really contribute to the tone of your amp.
> 
> What I usually tell 800 owners is to use the highest gain tube in V1 that you like. You will want a tube that will give you a clean sound when you roll the volume knob down on your guitar, but will kick you in the seat of your pants when turned up full blast.
> 
> So, for V1 you will want a tube that not only sounds good, but has the right amount of gain for your playing style.



Makes a bit of a difference. Idea still stands. It will actually be easier to roll with a simple amp like that. Nice!


----------



## Procter2812

Hmmm....

Just been playing on my 800 and the tone is starting to get a little weak and a bit fizzy.

It doesnt seem like the power section as when i crank the master the volume increases with no crackles or pops. I hope its not my V1 Mullard Yellow Label going out on me 

Its had about 25/30 hours so far on it off me...

Could it be V2?


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Hmmm....
> 
> Just been playing on my 800 and the tone is starting to get a little weak and a bit fizzy.
> 
> It doesnt seem like the power section as when i crank the master the volume increases with no crackles or pops. I hope its not my V1 Mullard Yellow Label going out on me
> 
> Its had about 25/30 hours so far on it off me...
> 
> Could it be V2?



If you have extra preamp tubes change one at a time. Take the Mullard out and put in another one. If it still has the problem then you know its not that tube. Keep going and see what happens. Do the preamp section first and then if it still has an issue try replacing the power section.

I had a brand new preamp tube go in 4hrs.


----------



## Procter2812

Yeah if got tens of pre-amp tubes lying around. Im just about to do it so il let you know how i go on..


----------



## Procter2812

Ah fuck... its the Mullard... the one i payed 23 quid for!!

Ahh well Iv got 2 Brimars left in V1 and V2 and a Chinese In V3

Sounds just as good to me 

Just another excuse for me to buy more valves


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Ah fuck... its the Mullard... the one i payed 23 quid for!!
> 
> Ahh well Iv got 2 Brimars left in V1 and V2 and a Chinese In V3
> 
> Sounds just as good to me
> 
> Just another excuse for me to buy more valves



Yeah it happens man. I had an NOS 7025 go microphonic on me and these tubes are usually the most quiet. It goes with the territory. At least its an easy fix and wasn't anything seriously wrong with the amp.

Those Brimars sound good don't they?


----------



## Procter2812

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah it happens man. I had an NOS 7025 go microphonic on me and these tubes are usually the most quiet. It goes with the territory. At least its an easy fix and wasn't anything seriously wrong with the amp.
> 
> Those Brimars sound good don't they?



Yeah they sound real nice. Not as high gain as a Mullard i dont think but real clean clear sound.

They are cheap and well worth the money.


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Yeah they sound real nice. Not as high gain as a Mullard i dont think but real clean clear sound.
> 
> They are cheap and well worth the money.



If you ever get the chance try a Raytheon Black Plate. At least put it high on your list of tubes to get hehe.


----------



## ken361

seen a 1959 hammond organ on craigs, prob has some tubes in there huh? 250 for it


----------



## RiverRatt

That's definitely worth checking out Ken. The amps in those organs are good, too. They are all over eBay. 


Here are a couple more pics of RCA cleartops that I found.


----------



## wegman

I went on another raid today and there was only one 12ax7 tube left I missed. There are a ton of 12au7s in there.

I also grabbed two 6l6 power tubes with black plates. 

The speakers didn't look that great so I left them

The score has been totally exhausted.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's definitely worth checking out Ken. The amps in those organs are good, too. They are all over eBay.
> 
> 
> Here are a couple more pics of RCA cleartops that I found.



Did you try these already and how did you like?

I really like the RCA 12AX7A I got from Marty.


----------



## Procter2812

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If you ever get the chance try a Raytheon Black Plate. At least put it high on your list of tubes to get hehe.



Yeah will defo look out for one! I might just splash the cash on one which test really high for V1


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you try these already and how did you like?
> 
> I really like the RCA 12AX7A I got from Marty.



I already have two of them that I've been using for awhile. They seem to have a more rounded low end and mids and not as much upper mids as my Mullard or Tele. More American sounding, if that makes sense. I've been trying to find information on them forever, and there's just nothing out there. Three of the pictures I've found of them came from eBay auctions. I found an old post on the MetroAmp forum where TubeTramp said the three he'd been able to find were the best American tubes he owned. I emailed him to see if he could tell me anything else about them, and it turns out that he has just found a source for them. They date back to 1955. 

I think I like my Mullard or Tele in V1 with the BP in V2 better than the two RCAs in V1 and V2 just because the first combination sounds old school Marshall, but the RCAs have a character all their own. I'm glad to have a couple in my collection. The reason I'm obsessing with them is because they are so rare. I just lucked into mine. I bought an old hi-fi set a couple of years ago that yielded those two RCAs, plus a Raytheon 12AT7 short black plate, a Mullard EZ81 rectifier, a nice PT, and a few other odd tubes. I probably made my money back three times on that deal, plus I got to keep the two RCAs and the Raytheon.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, did you see that picture of the cracked 6CA7EH in another thread?

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/9227-have-i-messed-up.html#post71833


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, did you see that picture of the cracked 6CA7EH in another thread?
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/9227-have-i-messed-up.html#post71833



Man, I hope that doesn't happen with your tubes. Something tells me that there is more to the story that isn't being told, like an mismatched load. 

However, it could have been a tube with a small crack in it and of course it would get worse very fast with the heat expansion and all. It really caved in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Ah fuck... its the Mullard... the one i payed 23 quid for!!



Procter...I mourn your loss. I hate to see any tube go before its time. In a ways, you have to look at tubes as light bulbs. Once you start using them, they start getting old. The same for that Mullard. 

When you are dealing with tubes, new or used, NOS or CP, the fact remains that they really can't be guaranteed. Granted, 90 per cent of NOS or ANOS tubes will last a very long time, but they all will fail sometime. Even knowing all of this, I would still put my money and my trust into NOS tubes.

When I buy my tubes, there is generally a clause that states, "As Is-No Returns." I have to be very careful about who I buy my tubes from. It is the same reason that I can't guarantee my tubes. Most of the stuff we are dealing with is 40+ years old. Even if it is sold as New In Box (NIB), that doesn't mean that the tubes will all test strong. Some of the worst tubes I bought were NIB. The seller stated, "No need to test, NIB." Well that's ridiculous. 

Hopefully you will find another Mullard that lasts longer. Am I right in saying they are fairly common over in the UK?


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I went on another raid today and there was only one 12ax7 tube left I missed. There are a ton of 12au7s in there.
> 
> I also grabbed two 6l6 power tubes with black plates.
> 
> The speakers didn't look that great so I left them
> 
> The score has been totally exhausted.



Why didn't you grab all three of the 6L6's? What brand are they? RCA Black Plates? Those are very desirable with a lot of Fender owners as well as guys with 900 Marshalls. If you can get the third one, I would. This is because when you go to match them up, the extra tube may come in handy to make a matched pair. Then you can sell the odd, single tube.

If it had been Alan or me, that organ would have been gutted like a Christmas hog. AU7's included.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey ALAN. I haven't received any reply back from Terry. He was going to test the tubes and find me six balanced ones. (I told him I couldn't buy untested tubes...especially for the price he is charging.)

I'll keep you updated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had to dig to find the "Power Tube" thread. I put a couple of posts on there to keep it from dying. My Speaker thread was a bust. It seems as if toobs are the king pin topic. Well, getting a little off topic. Here are some tubes that are getting dual billing today. No...these won't work in V1 or V2, but they will kick ass in the power section. 

Here we have some 1969 Philips made, Zenith branded, Double "O" Getter, Fat Boy 6CA7's. Rated at 800VDC. One of the baddest of the bad. Big change in sound over the Mullard xf2's. These are more chimey with a fat, tight bottom. Highly articulate in all registers. These honeys dropped in and biased up better than any tube I have used. I did a hot amp bias and then let the amp cool down. I then did a cool start up bias test. They had only dropped 5mV. So between a cold amp and a hot amp, 5mV. Wow! I am going to keep them in the amp for a while. I had thoughts of stashing them away for use in one of my dream amps. However, I think that a month on them won't be too bad.





















Let's just pretend that these are real big preamp tubes...


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I had to dig to find the "Power Tube" thread. I put a couple of posts on there to keep it from dying. My Speaker thread was a bust. It seems as if toobs are the king pin topic. Well, getting a little off topic. Here are some tubes that are getting dual billing today. No...these won't work in V1 or V2, but they will kick ass in the power section.
> 
> Here we have some 1969 Philips made, Zenith branded, Double "O" Getter, Fat Boy 6CA7's. Rated at 800VDC. One of the baddest of the bad. Big change in sound over the Mullard xf2's. These are more chimey with a fat, tight bottom. Highly articulate in all registers. These honeys dropped in and biased up better than any tube I have used. I did a hot amp bias and then let the amp cool down. I then did a cool start up bias test. They had only dropped 5mV. So between a cold amp and a hot amp, 5mV. Wow! I am going to keep them in the amp for a while. I had thoughts of stashing them away for use in one of my dream amps. However, I think that a month on them won't be too bad.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's just pretend that these are real big preamp tubes...



never new there were 2 rings in there huh


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, did you see that picture of the cracked 6CA7EH in another thread?
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/9227-have-i-messed-up.html#post71833



Thanks guys for letting me know about this. You know it makes me a bit nervous every time I use any CP power tubes except the Winged=C='s. They've been proven to have some reliability.

Like we talk about. It can be a crapshoot. I pretty much feel the inevitability of using them you know?:Ohno:

I really like the 6CA7EH's too...


----------



## solarburn

Marty Wrote:

Well I had to dig to find the "Power Tube" thread. I put a couple of posts on there to keep it from dying. My Speaker thread was a bust. It seems as if toobs are the king pin topic. Well, getting a little off topic. Here are some tubes that are getting dual billing today. No...these won't work in V1 or V2, but they will kick ass in the power section. 

Here we have some 1969 Philips made, Zenith branded, Double "O" Getter, Fat Boy 6CA7's. Rated at 800VDC. One of the baddest of the bad. Big change in sound over the Mullard xf2's. These are more chimey with a fat, tight bottom. Highly articulate in all registers. These honeys dropped in and biased up better than any tube I have used. I did a hot amp bias and then let the amp cool down. I then did a cool start up bias test. They had only dropped 5mV. So between a cold amp and a hot amp, 5mV. Wow! I am going to keep them in the amp for a while. I had thoughts of stashing them away for use in one of my dream amps. However, I think that a month on them won't be too bad.

Yeah the real deal man.

I think you need to run them a while longer too. A couple of things that were key with my CP version was the big bottom and the great articulation. So it sounds like EH may be on the right path with these. Lets hope that bad one is not representative of how the CP 6CA7 will play out.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I already have two of them that I've been using for awhile. They seem to have a more rounded low end and mids and not as much upper mids as my Mullard or Tele. More American sounding, if that makes sense. I've been trying to find information on them forever, and there's just nothing out there. Three of the pictures I've found of them came from eBay auctions. I found an old post on the MetroAmp forum where TubeTramp said the three he'd been able to find were the best American tubes he owned. I emailed him to see if he could tell me anything else about them, and it turns out that he has just found a source for them. They date back to 1955.
> 
> I think I like my Mullard or Tele in V1 with the BP in V2 better than the two RCAs in V1 and V2 just because the first combination sounds old school Marshall, but the RCAs have a character all their own. I'm glad to have a couple in my collection. The reason I'm obsessing with them is because they are so rare. I just lucked into mine. I bought an old hi-fi set a couple of years ago that yielded those two RCAs, plus a Raytheon 12AT7 short black plate, a Mullard EZ81 rectifier, a nice PT, and a few other odd tubes. I probably made my money back three times on that deal, plus I got to keep the two RCAs and the Raytheon.



I agree. Mine is the same way even though its from the 60's.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Why didn't you grab all three of the 6L6's? What brand are they? RCA Black Plates? Those are very desirable with a lot of Fender owners as well as guys with 900 Marshalls. If you can get the third one, I would. This is because when you go to match them up, the extra tube may come in handy to make a matched pair. Then you can sell the odd, single tube.
> 
> If it had been Alan or me, that organ would have been gutted like a Christmas hog. AU7's included.



I did grab all three. There were only two 6L6's. They definetely have black plates. The third tube is a 5U4GB and it also has black plates.

If there is any value to the AU7's I will grab them. 

I still can not believe the difference with the vintage tubes in my amp. It's amazing. The amp is so smooth and responsive it is pleasure playing now.


----------



## solarburn

We have a convert!


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> There were only two 6L6's. They definetely have black plates. The third tube is a 5U4GB and it also has black plates.
> 
> If there is any value to the AU7's I will grab them.
> 
> I still can not believe the difference with the vintage tubes in my amp. It's amazing. The amp is so smooth and responsive it is pleasure playing now.



Well the truth is, you don't want to throw away "any" good tube. They are easy to store and you can always sell them for something. The 5U4 is not worth much, but I would hold on to it. I have many NIB 5U4 Black Plates and I won't sell them, as the market is soft. Now the 6L6 Black Plates, if you don't have a need for them, I would suggest you test them and list them on EBAY. Now is a good time to do so. Black Plate anything is selling hot on EBAY right now (except 5U4's).

What tube did you settle on in V1?


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We have a convert!



Oh Hell yea. I really didn't believe that vintage tubes would make that much of difference but man I was wrong.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> What tube did you settle on in V1?



I am using a black plate Baldwin which according to you guys is a Raytheon.

It seems to have the best response and tone though it is close between the black plate and the regular Baldwin tubes which some one mentioned is probably an RCA. The funny thing is the tubes labeled RCA I don't like as much in V1.

I notice a change in tone and dynamics whenever I change a tube in position. I really notice a change in dynamics when the PI tube is changed. I had a GT in there and when I went to the vintage the whole dynamic changed. Tone as well.

Is that normal?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> I am using a black plate Baldwin which according to you guys is a Raytheon.
> 
> It seems to have the best response and tone though it is close between the black plate and the regular Baldwin tubes which some one mentioned is probably an RCA. The funny thing is the tubes labeled RCA I don't like as much in V1.
> 
> I notice a change in tone and dynamics whenever I change a tube in position. I really notice a change in dynamics when the PI tube is changed. I had a GT in there and when I went to the vintage the whole dynamic changed. Tone as well.
> 
> Is that normal?



I luv the Raytheon BP in mine. I have it in V2 but like it in V1 as well. In fact V1 and V2 with BP's sound killa! Right now I have a Mullard CV4024 AT7 in V1, BP in V2, RCA in V3 and a RFT in the PI.

Marty's shak'n his head cause I got that AT7 in V1 again hehe.

What NOS did you use for your PI slot?


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I luv the Raytheon BP in mine. I have it in V2 but like it in V1 as well. In fact V1 and V2 with BP's sound killa! Right now I have a Mullard CV4024 AT7 in V1, BP in V2, RCA in V3 and a RFT in the PI.
> 
> Marty's shak'n his head cause I got that AT7 in V1 again hehe.
> 
> What NOS did you use for your PI slot?



I tried a RCA and that seems to work pretty well. I still have not tried a GE anywhere. Haven't gotten that far yet.

One thing kind of strange. It seems that any tube that goes in V1 is microphonic. If I tap on it you can definetly hear it. 

I wonder what that is all about. 

Do you purchase your tubes or have you found some or both? I just can't in good concience pay what they are asking for NOS tubes. I have to scrounge for them.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> I tried a RCA and that seems to work pretty well. I still have not tried a GE anywhere. Haven't gotten that far yet.
> 
> One thing kind of strange. It seems that any tube that goes in V1 is microphonic. If I tap on it you can definetly hear it.
> 
> I wonder what that is all about.
> 
> Do you purchase your tubes or have you found some or both? I just can't in good concience pay what they are asking for NOS tubes. I have to scrounge for them.



I buy them. Mostly from Marty. He didn't have any RFT's so I got them from a Tube broker online. Usually preamp tubes cost me $45 and under each. Some have been $25 to $30 so I am getting into NOS pretty cheap. Especially if looking at tube brokers online. Some of the tubes I have go for way more. Besides all mine are tested so I know what I'm getting.

All tubes are microphonic. Some are worse than others and that translates into ringing, humming or tapping on them and hearing them that way. How are yours sounding at volume? Hear any ringing or other noise you can't account for?


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I buy them. Mostly from Marty. He didn't have any RFT's so I got them from a Tube broker online. Usually preamp tubes cost me $45 and under each. Some have been $25 to $30 so I am getting into NOS pretty cheap. Especially if looking at tube brokers online. Some of the tubes I have go for way more. Besides all mine are tested so I know what I'm getting.
> 
> All tubes are microphonic. Some are worse than others and that translates into ringing, humming or tapping on them and hearing them that way. How are yours sounding at volume? Hear any ringing or other noise you can't account for?



There is no way I can crank the amp but at the volume I am playing there are no problems. I just though it was odd. 

Yea there is no way I can drop that kind of coin. My wife would never go for that. She thinks I am mental for raiding old organs. The search for tone is a lonely one. 

So how many tubes do you have?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does an RF shield go over your V1? If not, they sell silicone O-rings that you roll on the tube and it will help slightly microphonic tubes. I can't understand why all of the tubes are microphonic in V1, unless they are all original tubes and well used. Only way to find out is to test them in a tube tester and in an amp. A tester can't detect a microphonic tube. You have to run them in an amp.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> There is no way I can crank the amp but at the volume I am playing there are no problems. I just though it was odd.
> 
> Yea there is no way I can drop that kind of coin. My wife would never go for that. She thinks I am mental for raiding old organs. The search for tone is a lonely one.
> 
> So how many tubes do you have?



Hahahaha! I have to pace myself too. I buy 1 or 2 on my good pay day. Marty treated me to my first 4 NOS ever...FREE! He knew what he was do'n hehe. Yeah...I got hooked!:Ohno::eek2:

So I just hook up with him when I'm ready and we do the deal. I trust him. There is no way I could afford them all at once. I think I probably have about 15 NOS preamp tubes now. Also about 3 pairs of NOS power tubes. One set of EL34 RFT's(killa price from Marty)and 2 sets of EL84's 1 being RFT's(paid $70 online)and the other some Russian made(free from Marty). All the NOS power tubes sound great. They get expensive though online.

I'm sure its way more fun scoring them out of old organs and such. Its paid off great for you. Your wife should be very happy about that if she knew how much these tubes can go for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

2000th POST goes to WEGMAN!!! Good job guys. A killa thread that shows up all the others. Can't wait to get Josh back.
:eek2::eek2:


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Does an RF shield go over your V1? If not, they sell silicone O-rings that you roll on the tube and it will help slightly microphonic tubes. I can't understand why all of the tubes are microphonic in V1, unless they are all original tubes and well used. Only way to find out is to test them in a tube tester and in an amp. A tester can't detect a microphonic tube. You have to run them in an amp.



Hey Marty.

Yes the RF shield will go over the tube. I didn't have it installed because I am rolling tubes. The black plate was the most microphonic. I thought that was odd. I have another one that I can try. I'll see if that one reacts the same way.

I posted a picture of the 6L6s I lifted over on the power tube thread. It's a half way decent pic. Overlook the coco puff crumb. 

How many tubes do you have Marty?


----------



## solarburn

A round for everyone!

Then one for Josh for getting us started!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, it was either Joe or Wegman. You guys kept posting and I was trying to back count posts. Anyway, I gave it to Wegman. You get a six pack of cyber beer and I'll dance in a hula skirt for you.

2000th post. Yeah, it's a big deal.

26,575 Views. That's a boatload of activity. My hat is off to all of you that make this thread a winner.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahahaha! I have to pace myself too. I buy 1 or 2 on my good pay day. Marty treated me to my first 4 NOS ever...FREE! He knew what he was do'n hehe. Yeah...I got hooked!:Ohno::eek2:
> 
> So I just hook up with him when I'm ready and we do the deal. I trust him. There is no way I could afford them all at once. I think I probably have about 15 NOS preamp tubes now. Also about 3 pairs of NOS power tubes. One set of EL34 RFT's(killa price from Marty)and 2 sets of EL84's 1 being RFT's(paid $70 online)and the other some Russian made(free from Marty). All the NOS power tubes sound great. They get expensive though online.
> 
> I'm sure its way more fun scoring them out of old organs and such. Its paid off great for you. Your wife should be very happy about that if she knew how much these tubes can go for.



My wife just thinks I am nuts. It's that simple. The dude I work with was really nice. He told me about the organ, he actually went and got it, tore the back off it for me and told me to go raid it. It cost me a six pack of Bud light.

I have to thank you guys again. It was this thread that educated me on all this. I mean I went from crappy tone to killer tone in couple weeks upon reading this thread. Anybody playing CP tubes the difference between CP and vintage is night and day.

Yes, I am going to be looking for power tubes next. EL34s are alot harder to come by I understand. I mean to find them.


----------



## solarburn

Hahahaha! Now there's a scare!LOL


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, it was either Joe or Wegman. You guys kept posting and I was trying to back count posts. Anyway, I gave it to Wegman. You get a six pack of cyber beer and I'll dance in a hula skirt for you.
> 
> 2000th post. Yeah, it's a big deal.
> 
> 26,575 Views. That's a boatload of activity. My hat is off to all of you that make this thread a winner.



2000th posts. Pretty damn cool. The Hula skirt dance tops all!


----------



## solarburn

Man we love our glass here hehe.


----------



## Paramedic006

I play mostly old school rock. I play a Deluxe Strat with SCN's and S1 and a Standard Strat with HSS, SD Saraceno at bridge and 2 stock Standard pu's thru a DSL100 and 1960A cab. Doing a valve change cuz I just bought the amp.. It's got SED Wings in it and generic preamps. Also, help on the bias settings. I know 90 is recommended by Marshall but I was thinking somewhere around 82 or 83. I have no problems doing the bias, I just need advice. I don't need early breakup or fancy Shakesperean explanations of gold pins, balanced phase inverter valves, I just want my DSL to sound like a Marshall. I mean hell, that's why I bought it. Help me out brothers. I trust ya.


----------



## solarburn

Paramedic006 said:


> I play mostly old school rock. I play a Deluxe Strat with SCN's and S1 and a Standard Strat with HSS, SD Saraceno at bridge and 2 stock Standard pu's thru a DSL100 and 1960A cab. Doing a valve change cuz I just bought the amp.. It's got SED Wings in it and generic preamps. Also, help on the bias settings. I know 90 is recommended by Marshall but I was thinking somewhere around 82 or 83. I have no problems doing the bias, I just need advice. I don't need early breakup or fancy Shakesperean explanations of gold pins, balanced phase inverter valves, I just want my DSL to sound like a Marshall. I mean hell, that's why I bought it. Help me out brothers. I trust ya.



Gold pins don't do shit for the tone. A balanced PI is for HIFI amps not guitar amps.

Do you know how to get your plate voltage number so you can set the bias or are you just shooting for a good neighborhood? I'd say 80 to 83mv is fine.

Winged =C='s are good tubes IMO. Reliable. Sound perty good. I prefer others.

Do you want NOS preamp tubes or CP? Maybe a combination?


----------



## racko7566

I know what you mean Wegman, I got some NOS tubes off Marty and mixed with one I got off e-bay and its such a difference in sound but mostly feel to me. What I love is the sound of the rca 12ax7a with orange writing mixed with the Raytheon bp I got of Marty. I never had a combonation of tubes that react this way. No matter what open string I hit and let ring... it feeds back slowly and perfectly in pitch with the original struck note. Thanks for all the info guys, you got me hooked. Special thanks to Marty and Solar, for answering my dumb questions.


Racko


----------



## Paramedic006

What did you have in mind for the preamp combo? Honestly, I don't know how to get the plate voltage. I did a lot of research and I think 80mv will do me fine. What is your preference for power tubes? I have owned valve amps before, just not a Marshall. I got a Peavey C30 with JJ's in the Power side and a mix in the preamp side. I think 1 is a tung sol, 2 is a JJ, 3 has no label on it. Doesn't sound too bad.


----------



## solarburn

Paramedic006 said:


> I play mostly old school rock. I play a Deluxe Strat with SCN's and S1 and a Standard Strat with HSS, SD Saraceno at bridge and 2 stock Standard pu's thru a DSL100 and 1960A cab. Doing a valve change cuz I just bought the amp.. It's got SED Wings in it and generic preamps. Also, help on the bias settings. I know 90 is recommended by Marshall but I was thinking somewhere around 82 or 83. I have no problems doing the bias, I just need advice. I don't need early breakup or fancy Shakesperean explanations of gold pins, balanced phase inverter valves, I just want my DSL to sound like a Marshall. I mean hell, that's why I bought it. Help me out brothers. I trust ya.



Here are some CP preamp tubes you could try:

V1-Tung Sol
V2-Tung Sol
V3-Mullard RI
PI-LPS(only place I'd use it)


----------



## Paramedic006

That preamp combo is a start. What kind of sound would I be looking at Solar?


----------



## solarburn

Paramedic006 said:


> What did you have in mind for the preamp combo? Honestly, I don't know how to get the plate voltage. I did a lot of research and I think 80mv will do me fine. What is your preference for power tubes? I have owned valve amps before, just not a Marshall. I got a Peavey C30 with JJ's in the Power side and a mix in the preamp side. I think 1 is a tung sol, 2 is a JJ, 3 has no label on it. Doesn't sound too bad.



I agree 80mv will be fine. For what you are playing the Winged =C= should be just fine. I'm demoing some 6CA7EH's that I like alot but I am keeping my eye on reliability. Need more time with them. The JJ EL34L's I liked alot too but reliability can be a problem from batch to batch. The SED Winged =C='s have a great track record so I would stay with those and work on your preamp section. Doug's Tubes recently recommended the Ruby EL34BHT to me. Jerry from FJA recommends EL34 Mullard RI's. I still have yet to try these... 

I do not like JJ ECC83S's(highgain)in a DSL. The JJ ECC803S's sound good in V1 but only last 4hrs brand new in mine. That ain't gonna work for me. Too bad cause it sounded real good.

Don't put a Tung Sol in V3. It may not handle the current. Other positions its fine.

I think what I posted prior for the preamp is a good mix.


----------



## solarburn

Paramedic006 said:


> That preamp combo is a start. What kind of sound would I be looking at Solar?



Blues, rock, hard rock neighborhood. If you want highgain I would go with some Chinese but only certain ones. Like 3 AC-5's and then the LPS in the PI. If you do this though you will lose some dynamics for stuff like the blues or midgain rock goodness hehe. It will be geared more for highgain, less dynamics with the Chinese.


----------



## solarburn

Paramedic006 said:


> That preamp combo is a start. What kind of sound would I be looking at Solar?



Give me a couple examples of old school rock you are referring to.


----------



## wegman

racko7566 said:


> I know what you mean Wegman, I got some NOS tubes off Marty and mixed with one I got off e-bay and its such a difference in sound but mostly feel to me. What I love is the sound of the rca 12ax7a with orange writing mixed with the Raytheon bp I got of Marty. I never had a combonation of tubes that react this way. No matter what open string I hit and let ring... it feeds back slowly and perfectly in pitch with the original struck note. Thanks for all the info guys, you got me hooked. Special thanks to Marty and Solar, for answering my dumb questions.
> 
> 
> Racko



Racko, that is exactly the combo that I am liking so far. I did some rolling tonight and I found that a orange lettering RCA in V1 and a BP in V2 sound the best.

We must both be going for the same sound or something. Pretty cool.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Racko, that is exactly the combo that I am liking so far. I did some rolling tonight and I found that a orange lettering RCA in V1 and a BP in V2 sound the best.
> 
> We must both be going for the same sound or something. Pretty cool.



I'm pretty much with you 2 on that combination hehe.


----------



## racko7566

wegman said:


> Racko, that is exactly the combo that I am liking so far. I did some rolling tonight and I found that a orange lettering RCA in V1 and a BP in V2 sound the best.
> 
> We must both be going for the same sound or something. Pretty cool.



Wow. Are you also playing a dsl? I haven't been posting lately because I can't put my guitar down with this sound.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm pretty much with you 2 on that combination hehe.



Now what in V3 and V4. I do notice a difference with each tube I try and I haven't come up with a winning combo there yet.

Also when rolling tubes I wear a box handeling glove. Works awesome for getting a good grip on the tube when pulling them out.


----------



## wegman

racko7566 said:


> Wow. Are you also playing a dsl? I haven't been posting lately because I can't put my guitar down with this sound.



No, I am playing a JCM 800 2210. I feel the same as you. Playing is so much fun with this sound. A week ago I was ready to sell my amp it sounded so bad with the crappy tubes I had in there. The sad part is they were new.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Now what in V3 and V4. I do notice a difference with each tube I try and I haven't come up with a winning combo there yet.
> 
> Also when rolling tubes I wear a box handeling glove. Works awesome for getting a good grip on the tube when pulling them out.



I can't find my favorite tube pulling sock. I had to grab another and it slips too much hehe. I may have to get a pair of those gloves.

I notice more of a tone difference in the PI slot from tube to tube. I really don't hear anything that sways me one way or another with V3 if its a decent offering. That's just me.

For a DSL/TSL:

So I would plop a tube in V3 and then roll the PI slot a few times and see what happens. Settle on one there. Then do V3 if you want just to see. You can't go wrong with tubes that have balanced frequencies. You know like decent bottom, mids and treble that isn't harsh. A couple of tubes that fit that mold would be good for sure. I felt my RFT in the PI warmed the overall tone up a bit more for me. I think that slot is worth rolling if you have some time...


----------



## solarburn

Wegman I keep forgetting you only have 3 preamp tubes. V3 is your PI. Your amp is an easy one to roll meaning less combinations to try hehe. I like that personally. So just roll the PI(V3)and see what you like. What tubes do you have left for that?


----------



## racko7566

wegman said:


> Now what in V3 and V4. I do notice a difference with each tube I try and I haven't come up with a winning combo there yet.
> 
> Also when rolling tubes I wear a box handeling glove. Works awesome for getting a good grip on the tube when pulling them out.



I like the sylvania grey plates in those positions. Seem to be very reliable.

And for gloves I'll try those, I've been wearing a sock for changes. Ghetto style.. LOL. But seriously I need to pay attention when changing tubes, cause two tubes I got off e-bay, I rubbed the writing of a bit due to hot rollin I think.


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wegman I keep forgetting you only have 3 preamp tubes. V3 is your PI. Your amp is an easy one to roll meaning less combinations to try hehe. I like that personally. So just roll the PI(V3)and see what you like. What tubes do you have left for that?




I've got orange letter RCA's, I have GE's and then Baldwin tubes which I believe are also RCA. I am in my studio right now as I right this and I just put a Baldwin but in the PI and it sounds pretty damn good. Excellent attack and dynamics when soloing. I will try some of the other tubes in there though just for the record.

Right now I have got my amp screaming. It sounds freaking awesome.


----------



## RiverRatt

Racko, I like the Sylvania in V3, too. I've been running one of my Ei 12AX7s in V4. It's a hot, high-gain tube and I like the way it opens the amp up. I used to use a 12AT7 in V4 to help tame the treble on the DSL, but since I put the RFT EL34s in, that's not an issue anymore. I used to obsess about rubbing the writing off my tubes, but I never intend to sell them, so it really doesn't matter much to me anymore. I keep them all in clearly-marked boxes so I know what's what.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> I've got orange letter RCA's, I have GE's and then Baldwin tubes which I believe are also RCA. I am in my studio right now as I right this and I just put a Baldwin but in the PI and it sounds pretty damn good. Excellent attack and dynamics when soloing. I will try some of the other tubes in there though just for the record.



You got it go'n then. Just takes a bit of time is all. Let me know what you settle on...

I just got done play'n some on mine. Its getting too late for me now due to others here needing to wind down. So I'll have to live vicariously through you hehe.

Jam on!


----------



## racko7566

RiverRatt said:


> Racko, I like the Sylvania in V3, too. I've been running one of my Ei 12AX7s in V4. It's a hot, high-gain tube and I like the way it opens the amp up. I used to use a 12AT7 in V4 to help tame the treble on the DSL, but since I put the RFT EL34s in, that's not an issue anymore. I used to obsess about rubbing the writing off my tubes, but I never intend to sell them, so it really doesn't matter much to me anymore. I keep them all in clearly-marked boxes so I know what's what.



Yea.. I dont plan on sellin mine either, but it sure as hell would make it easier remembering what I have if the writing was still there:cool2:


----------



## solarburn

Another vote for writing on the boxes what they are and test numbers if any...


----------



## Procter2812

Jesus!!! the price of NOS tubes has Rocketed!!!

£32 for a Mullard yellow plate in half decent cond.

£66 for a brand new in box Mullard White Label!

Best get buying now! we could have a little investment on our hands. Marty is gonna be a Millionare!!


----------



## Procter2812

1 Westinghouse ECC83/12AX7 Carbon Black 17mm Plates "D" on eBay (end time 26-Nov-09 19:30:39 GMT)

How about this westinghouse ecc83 black plate?

I might start buying from the USA


----------



## wegman

Procter2812 said:


> Jesus!!! the price of NOS tubes has Rocketed!!!
> 
> £32 for a Mullard yellow plate in half decent cond.
> 
> £66 for a brand new in box Mullard White Label!
> 
> Best get buying now! we could have a little investment on our hands. Marty is gonna be a Millionare!!



That is why I had to raid an old tube organ. I can't afford NOS tube prices.

Yea, I think Marty is trying to corner the market!


----------



## ken361

dam im good!
Mystery Tubes! (NOS and NP pre tube comparison) - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You got it go'n then. Just takes a bit of time is all. Let me know what you settle on...
> 
> I just got done play'n some on mine. Its getting too late for me now due to others here needing to wind down. So I'll have to live vicariously through you hehe.
> 
> Jam on!



An orange lettering RCA wins for the PI hands down.

I find those orange letter RCA's are pretty sweet.

So here's what I have so far. 

(V1) orange letter RCA, (V2) black plate raytheon, (V3) an orange letter RCA, (V4) (reverb) GT, and (V5) orange letter RCA.

I will post a clip of my sound when I get organized.


----------



## ken361

wegman said:


> An orange lettering RCA wins for the PI hands down.
> 
> I find those orange letter RCA's are pretty sweet.
> 
> So here's what I have so far.
> 
> (V1) orange letter RCA, (V2) black plate raytheon, (V3) an orange letter RCA, (V4) (reverb) GT, and (V5) orange letter RCA.
> 
> I will post a clip of my sound when I get organized.


looks sweet! cant wait till hear! getting my frankenstien pup put in the wolf today whoohoo!


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> An orange lettering RCA wins for the PI hands down.
> 
> I find those orange letter RCA's are pretty sweet.
> 
> So here's what I have so far.
> 
> (V1) orange letter RCA, (V2) black plate raytheon, (V3) an orange letter RCA, (V4) (reverb) GT, and (V5) orange letter RCA.
> 
> I will post a clip of my sound when I get organized.



I didn't know you had 5 preamp tubes although 1 is a reverb driver.

Ok. Now I'm up to speed. Anyways that looks like a great line up. Bet it does sound good.

Yeah I'd love to hear it.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> looks sweet! cant wait till hear! getting my frankenstien pup put in the wolf today whoohoo!



Cool for you man.


----------



## wegman

Ok. Here is a sound clip. Don't critique the playing I am just screwing around. 

Let me know what you think of the sound. The mix is a little trebly. This is also at bedroom volume on a 100 watt amp so keep that in mind.

ACIDplanet.com Media Player


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I left at around ten last night and you guys has a chat fest. Let me go back and see if I need to answer any of these questions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> How many tubes do you have Marty?



It varies from month to month, but I usually have about 400 tubes. This includes power and rectifier tubes.

I would still love to find an all tube organ to raid.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Ok. Here is a sound clip. Don't critique the playing I am just screwing around.
> 
> Let me know what you think of the sound. The mix is a little trebly. This is also at bedroom volume on a 100 watt amp so keep that in mind.
> 
> ACIDplanet.com Media Player



Sounds good JW! I don't hear any dullness, flubb or icepicks. I like it!


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sounds good JW! I don't hear any dullness, flubb or icepicks. I like it!



Cool.

That is 100 times better sound that what I had with the CP tubes. What I like is it is nice and clean and you can hear everything, even the mistakes!

With the CP tubes the sound was really muddy and flabby.

I am really pleased with the sound I am getting now. It is easily workable.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> It varies from month to month, but I usually have about 400 tubes. This includes power and rectifier tubes.
> 
> I would still love to find an all tube organ to raid.



400 tubes? Holy Wha.

You are trying to corner the market


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> 400 tubes? Holy Wha.
> 
> You are trying to corner the market



Could you imagine living next door to him...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Paramedic006 said:


> I play mostly old school rock. I play a Deluxe Strat with SCN's and S1 and a Standard Strat with HSS, SD Saraceno at bridge and 2 stock Standard pu's thru a DSL100 and 1960A cab. Doing a valve change cuz I just bought the amp.. It's got SED Wings in it and generic preamps. Also, help on the bias settings. I know 90 is recommended by Marshall but I was thinking somewhere around 82 or 83. I have no problems doing the bias, I just need advice. I don't need early breakup or fancy Shakesperean explanations of gold pins, balanced phase inverter valves, I just want my DSL to sound like a Marshall. I mean hell, that's why I bought it. Help me out brothers. I trust ya.



The EH12AX7 is a good tube for V1 if you can get a high gain Tung-Sol for V2. This gives you a better clean, but you still have some bite. Now if a clean channel isn't a necessity, then I would recommend Solar's line up of Tung-Sol's and then a Mullard RI in V3. The Sovtek LPS is okay for the PI, but I personally would go with a better tube, say another Tung-Sol. Also, several places are still selling Ei 12AX7's. I would recommend buying a couple of these ($17.95) if you have the extra cash. Some people don't like them in V1, but I do. They are also an excellent V2 tube.

http://thetubestore.com/12ax7.html (These work in a head, but can't handle a combo.)

Power tubes can be difficult to pick. The Winged =C='s are the most reliable and I feel they have good tone when biased in their sweet spot. You might want to stay with a new set of these. Otherwise, I will recommend these:

Tung-Sol EL34B

Mullard EL34

Now if you feel in the future that you want to go NOS with your preamps, give a shout and we can help with that as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> My wife just thinks I am nuts. It's that simple. The dude I work with was really nice. He told me about the organ, he actually went and got it, tore the back off it for me and told me to go raid it. It cost me a six pack of Bud light.
> 
> I have to thank you guys again. It was this thread that educated me on all this. I mean I went from crappy tone to killer tone in couple weeks upon reading this thread. Anybody playing CP tubes the difference between CP and vintage is night and day.
> 
> Yes, I am going to be looking for power tubes next. EL34s are alot harder to come by I understand. I mean to find them.



Sell some of your tubes, buy your wife something nice and that will take care of the "nuts" thing. "Oh, for me?" "You sold some tubes?"

No problem with the assistance. It's what we do. It keeps this thread going. If you were to go back a dozen pages, there are guys always leaving a post or two about how good their amps sound now.

Finding EL34's? Yeah, that would be really tough. You would have to look for an old Marantz Model 9 or a Dynaco power amp. Some sort of power amp made in the mid-50's to early 60's. Problem is, these amps are worth big money and if the tubes and the amp are good, one amp could be worth several thousand dollars...if it's a Marantz.

It would be extremely difficult to locate EL34's. It would be easier to find some 6CA7 tubes. Keep that number in mind. It is an EL34 type tube and is a direct substitute for an EL34. The 6CA7 tube can be found in many old USA amplifiers.

Good hunting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Paramedic006 said:


> What did you have in mind for the preamp combo? Honestly, I don't know how to get the plate voltage. I did a lot of research and I think 80mv will do me fine. What is your preference for power tubes? I have owned valve amps before, just not a Marshall. I got a Peavey C30 with JJ's in the Power side and a mix in the preamp side. I think 1 is a tung sol, 2 is a JJ, 3 has no label on it. Doesn't sound too bad.



The only problem of not knowing your plate voltage is that it is a guessing game at setting the bias. Granted, the difference can be small, as there isn't much difference between 425VDC and 450VDC. However, knowing your plate voltage allows you to know the exact limits of bias on your tubes. Then you can decide if you like the tone of the amp at 70 per cent or at 65 per cent. You don't want to go to cold. The amp will loose its balls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Paramedic006 said:


> That preamp combo is a start. What kind of sound would I be looking at Solar?



Go here and glance over the reviews. This will give you a feel of how the Tung-Sol's, EH's and Mullard's stack up.

12AX7 Tube Type Review


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Jesus!!! the price of NOS tubes has Rocketed!!!
> 
> £32 for a Mullard yellow plate in half decent cond.
> 
> £66 for a brand new in box Mullard White Label!
> 
> Best get buying now! we could have a little investment on our hands. Marty is gonna be a Millionare!!



Have you seen my posts lately? I've been complaining about the cost of tubes. It has jumped in some cases over 45 per cent. I can't buy black plates anymore. They are going for over $50 each.

I may be in trouble, if I can't keep new stock coming in.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sell some of your tubes, buy your wife something nice and that will take care of the "nuts" thing. "Oh, for me?" "You sold some tubes?"
> 
> No problem with the assistance. It's what we do. It keeps this thread going. If you were to go back a dozen pages, there are guys always leaving a post or two about how good their amps sound now.
> 
> Finding EL34's? Yeah, that would be really tough. You would have to look for an old Marantz Model 9 or a Dynaco power amp. Some sort of power amp made in the mid-50's to early 60's. Problem is, these amps are worth big money and if the tubes and the amp are good, one amp could be worth several thousand dollars...if it's a Marantz.
> 
> It would be extremely difficult to locate EL34's. It would be easier to find some 6CA7 tubes. Keep that number in mind. It is an EL34 type tube and is a direct substitute for an EL34. The 6CA7 tube can be found in many old USA amplifiers.
> 
> Good hunting.



It's funny because I work for a telephone company and they had a ton of old equipment that had tubes in it that they just junked. It was before my time with the company. It would have been interesting to see what kind of tubes were in that stuff but now we'll never know.

I am probably going to sell the 6L6's as I have no use for them. I will have to get them tested first. Then, maybe I will get a little something for the wife.

That's a good idea Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> dam im good!
> Mystery Tubes! (NOS and NP pre tube comparison) - Harmony Central Musician Community Forums



Well try a clip sometime of a 1959 RCA Gray Plate, 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy, 1966 Mullard and a 1964 Telefunken Smooth Plate. That will knock your socks off.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Ok. Here is a sound clip. Don't critique the playing I am just screwing around.
> 
> Let me know what you think of the sound. The mix is a little trebly. This is also at bedroom volume on a 100 watt amp so keep that in mind.
> 
> ACIDplanet.com Media Player



Sounds like a Marshall with some good tubes in it. Good attack, definition and sustain. The big three. Sweet rhythm track.


----------



## wegman

Hey Marty,

Can you tell me anythng about an orange lettering RCA tube? They sound pretty sweet in my amp. I am just wondering if there is something special about them.

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Could you imagine living next door to him...



I would treat you good. There would be a great need for a slobber pail.

There...I think I finally got caught up. If I missed some important post, hit me up again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Can you tell me anythng about an orange lettering RCA tube? They sound pretty sweet in my amp. I am just wondering if there is something special about them.
> 
> Thanks



Well the orange lettered tubes were that last generation of RCA. Most Hi Fi junkies want the white lettered tubes. These I believe were made up until the early 60's. I personally think the older tubes are better. There are many reasons for this and I have discussed these topics many times. The white lettered tubes were made on equipment that was not worn out. RCA kept using the same equipment over and over. By the time they were making the orange lettered tubes, the equipment was pretty worn out. So the tolerances were not as close as the older tubes. Are orange RCA tubes good? Sure. They blow a CP tube out of the water. You just have to realize that the difference between a good NOS tube and a great NOS tube is not very much. Will a Telefunken stomp the RCA? Most people would say, "Yes." However, it boils down to personal preference. Now I will say that I am partial to Amperex (Dutch made) tubes, or anything made by Philips. To me, these are the best tubes. 

If you hang around long enough, you will pick up on a lot of the jargon.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the orange lettered tubes were that last generation of RCA. Most Hi Fi junkies want the white lettered tubes. These I believe were made up until the early 60's. I personally think the older tubes are better. There are many reasons for this and I have discussed these topics many times. The white lettered tubes were made on equipment that was not worn out. RCA kept using the same equipment over and over. By the time they were making the orange lettered tubes, the equipment was pretty worn out. So the tolerances were not as close as the older tubes. Are orange RCA tubes good? Sure. They blow a CP tube out of the water. You just have to realize that the difference between a good NOS tube and a great NOS tube is not very much. Will a Telefunken stomp the RCA? Most people would say, "Yes." However, it boils down to personal preference. Now I will say that I am partial to Amperex (Dutch made) tubes, or anything made by Philips. To me, these are the best tubes.
> 
> If you hang around long enough, you will pick up on a lot of the jargon.



Ok. Great info.

Now the Baldwin tubes I have I was told have the RCA 12AX7 stamp on them. Any idea what version of an RCA those are?

Lastly while I am bombarding you with questions, I have 3 GE tubes that are super hot. I mean they are really high gain and somewhat noisy. They have white lettering on them. Do you know anything about them?

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Ok. Great info.
> 
> Now the Baldwin tubes I have I was told have the RCA 12AX7 stamp on them. Any idea what version of an RCA those are?
> 
> Lastly while I am bombarding you with questions, I have 3 GE tubes that are super hot. I mean they are really high gain and somewhat noisy. They have white lettering on them. Do you know anything about them?
> 
> Thanks



If the tube number is inside of a stretched out octagonal box, they are RCA. If there are any other numbers on the tube and the ink is white, they are older RCA's as I have already described. If the bottom row of numbers says 59, 60 or 61, that is the year the tube was made. What I think is that the original tubes were Baldwin/RCA tubes. Then the organ got serviced over the years and the orange RCA's were used by the serviceman.

The GE are probably so stout that they are overloading your preamp circuit. You can use high gainers in your PI, tone stack and I believe even your reverb driver. (You might want to check for noise using them in the reverb driver.)

Tubes like the GE have limited use. They are the kind of tube that gets used for 10 years and then it tests normal.


----------



## Procter2812

Well well well... just waiting to pounce my bids on a Telefunken smooth plate. They supposed to be one of the best 

That organ is a real score il have to keep a look out on ebay for them. I know a guy who had a TSL serviced by an old guy who knows amps inside out.

anyway he needed new power valves and stuck a matched quad of Mullard Xf2's in there for £30!


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> If the tube number is inside of a stretched out octagonal box, they are RCA. If there are any other numbers on the tube and the ink is white, they are older RCA's as I have already described. If the bottom row of numbers says 59, 60 or 61, that is the year the tube was made. What I think is that the original tubes were Baldwin/RCA tubes. Then the organ got serviced over the years and the orange RCA's were used by the serviceman.
> 
> The GE are probably so stout that they are overloading your preamp circuit. You can use high gainers in your PI, tone stack and I believe even your reverb driver. (You might want to check for noise using them in the reverb driver.)
> 
> Tubes like the GE have limited use. They are the kind of tube that gets used for 10 years and then it tests normal.



Thanks again for the info Marty.

The GE's are really hot. I will have to try them in some other spots. I like / am going for alot of gain but they are just to much in V1 or V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well another no-go for Black Plates. One of my regular sellers had five strong ones listed on EBAY. They went for $189.02. Three months ago I was buying the same tubes from the same guy for $78 to $85 (for five tubes). 

Well kiddies, maybe that time has come when the price of NOS goes through the roof. Lord I hope not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Well well well... just waiting to pounce my bids on a Telefunken smooth plate. They supposed to be one of the best
> 
> That organ is a real score il have to keep a look out on ebay for them. I know a guy who had a TSL serviced by an old guy who knows amps inside out.
> 
> anyway he needed new power valves and stuck a matched quad of Mullard Xf2's in there for £30!



The Mullard xf2's are kick ass. I have a set in my TSL602. They handle the high plate voltage with ease and have a killa sound.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well another no-go for Black Plates. One of my regular sellers had five strong ones listed on EBAY. They went for $189.02. Three months ago I was buying the same tubes from the same guy for $78 to $85 (for five tubes).
> 
> Well kiddies, maybe that time has come when the price of NOS goes through the roof. Lord I hope not.



Welcome to double the price.com where we have all your favorite NOS tubes waiting for you to pony up for!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The sad thing is, it's not funny. If I have to buy high, I have to sell high. When tubes sell at the going high retail price, then you can't mark them up and sell them for an even higher price, because no one will buy them.

Man this sucks!


----------



## solarburn

Yeah its a bad deal for everyone. My post above was more pissed off sarcasm then my trying to crack a joke.

Why are they doubling the prices...?


----------



## wegman

I wish I would have got on the NOS bandwagon a few years ago when prices were probably civil. I was doing a little poking around on the internet and the prices were down right ludicrous. It would have been cool to load up on NOS like 5 years ago.

As usual I am late to the party.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I didn't take it in a bad way. I knew what you meant. 

I have no idea as to why the price of tubes has tripled in three months.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, I didn't take it in a bad way. I knew what you meant.
> 
> I have no idea as to why the price of tubes has tripled in three months.



Yeah I just don't get it. Maybe sellers are monitoring the activity and trying to cash in and see how far peeps will go. Shit what a time to raise prices...during a world wide economic shitstorm.

Bastids!


----------



## Procter2812

Finally scored a Telefunken Long-smooth plate.

£18... Iv been dying to get one after reading what you all say about them. Im looking forward to this one!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Finally scored a Telefunken Long-smooth plate.
> 
> £18... Iv been dying to get one after reading what you all say about them. Im looking forward to this one!



Way to go. I think you will like it. Solar is going to be trying some Tele's out this week. I can't wait to hear what you guys have to say about them.


----------



## racko7566

What's up all, Im in the middle of a several month remodeling job on a farm house I will be moving into shortly. Well after working all day I started snooping around in some of the small barns that are mostly junk piles and to my suprise I found a really old rotted away philco radio, a stereo turn table consel combo and an ancient tv. Well between them all I grabbed 29 tubes, which as a noob I dont think they will work in an amp but I know nothing of this sort. So heres a list and a pic of what I got for Marty and Solar and you other knowledgeable guys to 
take a look at and see if any of them can be used.

3- philco 24a
2- philco 45
1- philco 27
1- philco 80 or 86 cant tell
1- rca 6v6gta
1- rca 5y3gt
2- ba6 or13a6 cant tell
1- rca 6av6
1- 12be6
3- 4bz6
1- 12av6
1- 6be6
1- 12ba6
1- 50c5
1- hs8
1- 35w4
1- 38 hk7
1- 6t6a
1- 6ln8
1- 17jz8
1- ge 68c7 or69c7 cant tell

Well thats all of them. here is a pic. If you want to see a certain tube post it and Ill do a solo shot. Thanks for any info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 45's if good fetch about $10 to $25 each. 

The 27's if they have the mesh grid can bring about $45 a pair.

The 24A's can go for 99 cents or as much as $12. Depends on brand and condition.

The 80 or 86 tube? If it has twin plates with a square cut on the top of the plate, it is a rectifier. This would be an 80 tube.

There isn't an 86 tube. There is an EF86, or a PCL86. I think you have an 80 tube. 99 cents on up to 14 or 15 bucks.

The rest of the tubes I doubt if you could sell, but I would stash them. If you had gotten a pair of 6V6's, you could sell the pair. It's hard to sell just one. Hang on to the 5Y3 as well. It is a rectifier tube.

I have a separate box that I keep odd ball tubes in. That was some old unit with all of those "globe" shaped tubes. So old in fact that it didn't have any 12AX7's. It was probably made in the early 40's before WWII. Wow!


----------



## racko7566

Damn.. thanks Marty. I really like old stuff, dont care about what there worth really, just fun exploring for them, and some are so cool with double getters on the same side and stuff. Wow if you think about it, some of these tubes could of had the sound waves of Orson Wells voice reading war of the worlds going through them. Sooo cool!!!!!


----------



## racko7566

If you guys dont mind I would like to post some pics of the cool looking tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> If you guys dont mind I would like to post some pics of the cool looking tubes.



Go right ahead. I love looking at those old tubes. Are most of them Philco branded? If you can get a clear shot of any acid etched part number, that would be great. Philco used a lot of RCA tubes. Look for the RCA octagon box on the tube. Also, Tung-Sol was big back then.


----------



## jupiter89

I wish I had 1/100th of the tube knowledge some of you guys have. Let me say I am a Marshall guy (have 5 heads), but I also have a Vox AC4TV, Night Train and will be getting a 1976 Hiwatt Custom 50 this week partially for curiosity and also to see how a Pink Floyd type of tone will sound through it vs. Marshall. (Unsure whether I will keep it or sell it). Anyway, I want find out if the tubes in it are good choices or not. There are 3 RCA 12ax7 preamp tubes, a Groove Tube ECC81 P/I tube, and the 2 power tubes are Seimens EL34's. I see the RCA pre-amp tubes mentioned a lot but not the Seimens power tubes. Are they a good tube ? I am almost positive that the early Hiwatts came with Mullards, because Dave Reeves the company's creator used to work for Mullard.


----------



## racko7566

This is the Philco 24a


----------



## racko7566

Heres the 45, their awesome looking...


----------



## MartyStrat54

jupiter89 said:


> I wish I had 1/100th of the tube knowledge some of you guys have. Let me say I am a Marshall guy (have 5 heads), but I also have a Vox AC4TV, Night Train and will be getting a 1976 Hiwatt Custom 50 this week partially for curiosity and also to see how a Pink Floyd type of tone will sound through it vs. Marshall. (Unsure whether I will keep it or sell it). Anyway, I want find out if the tubes in it are good choices or not. There are 3 RCA 12ax7 preamp tubes, a Groove Tube ECC81 P/I tube, and the 2 power tubes are Seimens EL34's. I see the RCA pre-amp tubes mentioned a lot but not the Seimens power tubes. Are they a good tube ? I am almost positive that the early Hiwatts came with Mullards, because Dave Reeves the company's creator used to work for Mullard.



A lot has to do with how strong the tubes are. The RCA's are fine preamp tubes if they aren't worn out. A 12AX7 can be damn near dead and still amplify the signal. I posted a long time ago about customers who actually liked worn out 12AX7's in their V1 position. Assuming the RCA's are good, I will say that the ECC81 (12AT7) can be replaced by another 12AX7 (ECC83). You don't have to use the ECC81 if you don't want to. Now the Siemens EL34's are in fact RFT EL34's and they are a superior EL34. 

Do the RCA's have orange or white lettering on the tubes?

If you need any more info, just let me know.


----------



## racko7566

Was wondering, do you guys think NOS tubes in an amp make more of a difference in an older point to point amp then a printed circuit board type?


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Was wondering, do you guys think NOS tubes in an amp make more of a difference in an older point to point amp then a printed circuit board type?



Every amp has its own tone (soul). Installing good quality NOS tubes will add to that tone. However, I do not think that it makes any difference on how the amp is wired. I mean it will make the amp sound different, but it won't make the tubes work differently. Most older amps had carbon composition resistors and they are known for being noisy and drifting. The more modern Marshalls use better resistors. 

In short, the answer to your question is, "No."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's what I like about you Alan...you got it bad. You're a tube-aholic. You nailed that slant top getter. Of course Valvo is a Philips brand. I would really like to try out a Valvo, Miniwatt and Amperex in a headphone amp and see how they sound. I would have to say similar.
> 
> Once again, great job of nailing that down.



What ever happened with this tube? How did it sound? If you ever get to feeling generous, I wouldn't mind trying it out sometime.


----------



## solarburn

Well my fellow tube rollers I just got my Top Secret highly classified box of tubes today. Martimus gave "ME" a special assignment which involves a very intense session of "tone titillation" here at our Washington facility. What is "tone titillation" you ask? Well I can't tell you otherwise the boyz in Black will hunt you down. Capeesh?

I'll give a hint...

I'll be getting Funken on my Tele.

Agent Solarius rolling out a here. 

PS- They're watching...you!:Ohno:


----------



## RiverRatt

So when do we get the report? Crank them suckers up and dial in a little dirt. See ya in a few hours.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> So when do we get the report? Crank them suckers up and dial in a little dirt. See ya in a few hours.



I'm going to be at this a few days cause of my off and on schedule to play.

I just put in a smooth plate rated at 24-24 on Marty's tester and it sounded really nice on the green channel. Overdrive was smooth and warm. I've got a RFT Tele smooth plate version in it now with a 24-23 rating. So I'm just going to go back and forth with a couple today and rate those 2. That's all I'll have time for. First impressions of the character of the tube is I like them. Oh and I'm just doing V1 for now.

I'll get more detailed as I go along. I will try them in my NT as well so I'm roll'n 2 amps. Needless to say Its going to be a long session coming hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> What ever happened with this tube? How did it sound? If you ever get to feeling generous, I wouldn't mind trying it out sometime.



It's difficult to hear what it sounds like, because it is a V2 tube and stout at that. I used it with a 7025 to see if I could hear a little more of it and I would say it has a little more top end to it. Overall, the tube turns my Marshall into a harmonics machine. Did I say high gain?

A sad story. Last night, I tried to buy two Valvo slant getter 12AX7's. The price wasn't bad, but the shipping was $15 from Germany. When I went to pounce on them with 30 seconds left, the EBAY software froze and I lost out on them. The pair went for $49. Son of a...

There is a guy that has another pair of Valvo's, but his auction starts at $99. They are out there. I would like to find one or two suitable for V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

More bad EBAY news. I thought that I had eight Mullards in the bag from the same seller. This was two lots of four. However, at the last moment, one of the lots jumped from $72 to $163. I did however get the other lot of four for $66.

It's like someone is out there claiming the end of NOS tubes and everybody who uses them are on a buying spree.


----------



## RiverRatt

So, should we start buying up Ei's yet? Some people are saying that they are going to be the same way in a few years.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well they are back in stock in most places, but the tubes are blank. They uncovered a whole bunch of them that were to be relabeled. I think they are going for $17.99 for a 12AX7.

If they aren't microphonic, they are about as close to NOS as you can get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I can't believe it, but we've answered everyone's tube questions. It sure is quiet. Any tube questions.

How about some more pictures of toobs?


----------



## ken361

ok! when I got my amp back from the tech he put in all marshall chinese hand selected and a sovteck in the v1 sounded pretty good but i kinda likeing this so far! v1tungsol, v2 mullard blackburn,v3 penta labs Mullard reissue,v4 mullard reissue(this tube sounds bad at v1 through v3 no probs in v4 and v5 marshall chinese. Seems to soften the pick attack some, waiting on the rft to come back! ok marty on this?


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well they are back in stock in most places, but the tubes are blank. They uncovered a whole bunch of them that were to be relabeled. I think they are going for $17.99 for a 12AX7.
> 
> If they aren't microphonic, they are about as close to NOS as you can get.



selling Ei's again?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> selling Ei's again?



Yeah the online stores have them all over, except Doug's. I would try a couple but apparently its really hit and miss with the mocrophonics on these. The Tubestore warns you that there is no warranties when used with guitar amps:


The Ei ECC83 / 12AX7 is modeled after the famous "flat plate" Telefunken pre-amp audio tube. Although no longer in current production, the Ei 12AX7 / ECC83 tube is in stock now. This batch was originally intended for OEM so the bottles are not labeled with the "Ei" brand. The Ei 12AX7 tube is best suited for professional and home audio applications. The exception is guitar amps; although the tone is great, we will not guarantee microphonic performance in those types of amps and would strongly suggest that you try another 12AX7 type. There is no warranty when used in guitar amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ei went out of business a few years ago. Their ECC83 was Marshall's OEM tube for years. They were a copy of a Telefunken smooth plate and supposedly made them on the old Tele equipment. They aren't a bad sounding tube, but they have a reputation for being microphonic. I thought I had a picture of one, but I can't find it. thetubestore.com has some in stock now.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, you either think faster or type faster than me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> ok! when I got my amp back from the tech he put in all marshall chinese hand selected and a sovteck in the v1 sounded pretty good but i kinda likeing this so far! v1tungsol, v2 mullard blackburn,v3 penta labs Mullard reissue,v4 mullard reissue(this tube sounds bad at v1 through v3 no probs in v4 and v5 marshall chinese. Seems to soften the pick attack some, waiting on the rft to come back! ok marty on this?



Yeah that will work, but it's going to sound better with the RFT in V1. Once you get it back in there, you should notice more of a difference in how V1 and V2 work together.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, you either think faster or type faster than me.


----------



## ken361

mullard reissue a week tube? doug rated the gain 115/115 sounded not strong at all!!!!!!!!!! low volume tooo. seems fine in the v4


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> mullard reissue a week tube? doug rated the gain 115/115 sounded not strong at all!!!!!!!!!! low volume tooo. seems fine in the v4



I've heard it described as a lower gain 12AX7 and that's how it sounds in mine especially in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> mullard reissue a week tube? doug rated the gain 115/115 sounded not strong at all!!!!!!!!!! low volume tooo. seems fine in the v4



I just get a kick out of how perfectly matched these CP tubes are. Man, if only RCA could have pulled that off. 115-115. Simply perfect.

This Mullard RI is actually a medium gain V1 type of tube, although I have had certain people tell me that it has noise. I think certain amps may aggravate this. If you like it in V4, then keep it there. That's a good place for it.

Look at it this way. You have a perfectly balanced tube in your PI slot...even though you don't need a perfectly balanced tube in your PI slot.


----------



## ken361

he owed me a tube cause one went bad and I told him I wanted to try that one, thats a first that I got one balanced like that. Thats not the pi slot v5 is.


----------



## ken361

wonder if a company made a smaller tube like the old ones it would sound any diff?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> he owed me a tube cause one went bad and I told him I wanted to try that one, thats a first that I got one balanced like that. Thats not the pi slot v5 is.



I'm sorry, I keep forgetting you have a 205. I'm so used to 900's and DSL/TSL's. Sorry about that. Well, at least he isn't sending you "matched" tubes all of the time. I'd be getting suspicious then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> wonder if a company made a smaller tube like the old ones it would sound any diff?



If you had been here a while back you would have seen that. The company was Tech Tube and they were making 12AX7's. Things didn't pan out and they filed for bankruptcy. Now the tubes are like rare to find. Some of the first batch were really horrible sounding.

Oh I want to add that the tubes that did work were often compared to Telefunkens in sound quality.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty,
I'm looking at a 12AX7. It was tested on a Hickok 6000A, with minimum good 1250. I think that this is on a scale of 1/3000. Anyway, the tube tests at 1850/1800. Isn't minimum good 70%? Can you explain this so I don't need a slide rule to figure it out?


----------



## solarburn

I've got to say these Telefunkens really suck!

They suck the money right out of my bank account.

Shit!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty,
> I'm looking at a 12AX7. It was tested on a Hickok 6000A, with minimum good 1250. I think that this is on a scale of 1/3000. Anyway, the tube tests at 1850/1800. Isn't minimum good 70%? Can you explain this so I don't need a slide rule to figure it out?



Those tubes would be at 85 to 92 percent out of 100. I know that on a Hickok, if they test at say 2100, the are in the upper 90's.

On my tester where 22-22 is nominal new, the 1850/1800 would probably be a 26-26 tube. Maybe a little stouter.

These are well over 70 percent tubes. On a Hickok, it may go to 3000 mhos, but not all tubes, even new ones will read that high. 

On my tester, 65 percent is were good starts, except for how I have to test 12AX7's. I have come to the conclusion that 22-22 represents an 80-80 tube.

If you need to know for sure, I can always test it for you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Ratt's avatar is sort of intimidating. So, all three of us have new avatars.

Hells...we da three amigos!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've got to say these Telefunkens really suck!
> 
> They suck the money right out of my bank account.
> 
> Shit!



Yeah, I like that sound. The sound of money being sucked out of your bank account. Next I'll send you some Amperex's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I like that sound. The sound of money being sucked out of your bank account. Next I'll send you some Amperex's.



You're a bad bad man!

RR's avee's bad ass!


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! I drew that during one of my more stoned moments. I actually made it for desktop wallpaper. I know I could have downloaded the Steal Your Face design from anywhere, but sometimes it's more fun to do it yourself.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! I drew that during one of my more stoned moments. I actually made it for desktop wallpaper. I know I could have downloaded the Steal Your Face design from anywhere, but sometimes it's more fun to do it yourself.



I took a double take on your avatar. I was like who the Hell is this, then I saw that it was you RiverRatt.

Freaked me out for second.


----------



## wegman

Man I've done alot of rolling. I even have a tube rolling glove. 




If anyone is interested here is where I am at.

V1 RCA orange letter
V2 Raytheon black plate
V3 RCA orange letter
V4 Groove tube (reverb tank)
V5 GE White letter

The amp sounds pretty killer but I am now in desperate need of some good power tubes. I think if I can come up with those the amp will kick some serious booty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, as mentioned before (and if the guy still has any left), you can get a matched quad of RFT's for $200. That's actually a really good price. They last a lot longer than the cheap CP stuff. Anyway, there is a guy on EBAY that sells these for $200.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, as mentioned before (and if the guy still has any left), you can get a matched quad of RFT's for $200. That's actually a really good price. They last a lot longer than the cheap CP stuff. Anyway, there is a guy on EBAY that sells these for $200.



Unfortunately in my case 2 bills breaks the bank. 

You know I could kick myself in the ass for being so stupid that I never looked to see what kind of power tubes I had in the amp before I had it retubed and for not demanding the originals back.

I am an Idiot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stop being so hard on yourself. I'm the only one that gets to do that.

What year was your amp made? I can guesstimate what you had.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those tubes would be at 85 to 92 percent out of 100. I know that on a Hickok, if they test at say 2100, the are in the upper 90's.
> 
> On my tester where 22-22 is nominal new, the 1850/1800 would probably be a 26-26 tube. Maybe a little stouter.
> 
> These are well over 70 percent tubes. On a Hickok, it may go to 3000 mhos, but not all tubes, even new ones will read that high.
> 
> On my tester, 65 percent is were good starts, except for how I have to test 12AX7's. I have come to the conclusion that 22-22 represents an 80-80 tube.
> 
> If you need to know for sure, I can always test it for you.



I haven't bought it yet, but I can hear it calling to me. It's that Sonotone clear top like mine that was on eBay for $32, now it's been relisted and it's a couple of $$ cheaper. You might want to grab it before I do. Did you ever hear back on those 6 side getters you were looking at?

Those test numbers are good. 1800/1850 is what my Tele smooth plate tested at, so it's still a strong tube for V1. My Mullard was around 1550/1600, so it's probably in the 22 or 23 range on your tester. I keep bouncing back and forth between those two.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Man I've done alot of rolling. I even have a tube rolling glove.
> 
> View attachment 1517
> 
> 
> If anyone is interested here is where I am at.
> 
> V1 RCA orange letter
> V2 Raytheon black plate
> V3 RCA orange letter
> V4 Groove tube (reverb tank)
> V5 GE White letter
> 
> The amp sounds pretty killer but I am now in desperate need of some good power tubes. I think if I can come up with those the amp will kick some serious booty.



Looks good man. Got to be enjoying good tone with that line up. You've got the tube glove. A necessary tool for the avid tube roller.

How much can you afford on power tubes? Pick some out and we will take a vote on the best bang for your money set...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't bought it yet, but I can hear it calling to me. It's that Sonotone clear top like mine that was on eBay for $32, now it's been relisted and it's a couple of $$ cheaper. You might want to grab it before I do. Did you ever hear back on those 6 side getters you were looking at?
> 
> Those test numbers are good. 1800/1850 is what my Tele smooth plate tested at, so it's still a strong tube for V1. My Mullard was around 1550/1600, so it's probably in the 22 or 23 range on your tester. I keep bouncing back and forth between those two.



I have my eye on some other stuff. However, something must have gone wrong with the side-getter deal. He never got back to me. Makes me wonder if the tubes were any good or were in the bucket for a reason.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Stop being so hard on yourself. I'm the only one that gets to do that.
> 
> What year was your amp made? I can guesstimate what you had.



It's a 1989


----------



## ken361

marty I found the box for the RFT it says 2300-2325 how does that pan out


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> marty I found the box for the RFT it says 2300-2325 how does that pan out



Those RFT's are stout (I know, you love that word). I have several that I wonder if I can use them. I would say put the Mullard in V1 and the RFT in V2. I think that will give you the better overall tone. I think the tone qualities of a Mullard is a little better than the RFT. Roll them in both slots and you decide.

Ratt, Joe, what is your take on this? Joe has had more RFT experience and I would like to hear his answer.


----------



## ken361

that was a new tube, didnt get it back will try it asap!


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> It's a 1989



Well 1988 is when Philips called it quits, but there was a lot of surplus tubes out there, so I guess there is a good chance that the amp could have had some nice tubes in it. The amplifier companies scrambled to obtain as many tubes as they could, so the surplus dried up by 1990. There were little stashes of them here and there but the big warehouse had been emptied.

Even if it had good tubes and they last longer, they don't last good forever.

I wish I had bought a 1,000 GE or Sylvania 8417's. I'd be rich right now.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well 1988 is when Philips called it quits, but there was a lot of surplus tubes out there, so I guess there is a good chance that the amp could have had some nice tubes in it. The amplifier companies scrambled to obtain as many tubes as they could, so the surplus dried up by 1990. There were little stashes of them here and there but the big warehouse had been emptied.
> 
> Even if it had good tubes and they last longer, they don't last good forever.
> 
> I wish I had bought a 1,000 GE or Sylvania 8417's. I'd be rich right now.




It had to have good tubes in it because the amp sounded and played awesome. Even with the new vintage tubes in it it still doesn't sound or play the same as it did before I changed the power tubes. It just is missing something.


----------



## MartyStrat54

FLASHBACK MOMENT #2--THE ICBM ARRIVED. 4/16/2009, PAGE 4.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, this is the strongest 12AX7 I have ever had. I mean it is brutally strong. It tests twice as strong as a good one. What's more, it is almost perfectly balanced. I pulled the 7025 out of V1 (after playing some power chord progressions) and replaced it with the Mullard/RCA. I flipped the standby switch and I knew I was in trouble. It was like a massive clean and I had to turn the master volume down a couple of notches. (V2, V3 and V4 are my matching GE's). This is my TSL122 amp by the way.
> 
> I've had to turn it down more as to get back to my earlier volume level. Man does this tube get loud! It has a little more top end than the RCA 7025 and I feel the mids are very close. However, I feel that the 7025 might have a wee bit more midbass to it. That, or this tube is so prominent in the high mids that it covers up the bottom end.
> 
> I cooled her down and went with the 7025 back in V1 and I replaced the GE in V2 with the ICBM. Wow! This is a sound that no one would complain about. I want to put it through the grinder. Hold on a minute.
> 
> I am now burning the power cord on my amp as I have hooked my Rocktron Zombie Rectifier and Silver Dragon up to the amp. I am going through the front door with the amp set on ultra clean. It's like cooking a thick steak...juicy! Wow! That is some crunch-a-bunch. (I think I sound better than Ted Nugent on Stranglehold.) Just was jammin' out with the stereo which is cranked halfway and its a 200 watt system with custom speakers.
> 
> And you guys thought that Neil Young was the only guy that played two distortion pedals at the same time. "Move over Neil!" The Silver Dragon has a 12AX7 in it and I've replaced it with a 1959 RCA about a year ago. I got it off of Ebay really cheap (no one had bid on it). I think it is one hell of a pedal. Look it up if you got the time. It's a Rocktron as well.
> 
> Well, that was the loudest that I've played in some time. I'm checking to make sure the cops aren't outside my door. I probably shouldn't have played that loud. Shame on me.
> 
> Well, the ICBM is a huge hit. It is one powerful 12AX7. It probably has a gain of 140 to 150, or in other words, a tube and a half. What is scary is that the Black Plate Raytheon tested almost as strong. Black Plates are usually really ballsy in the lower to upper mids.
> 
> Speaking of testing. All of the tubes tested at, or better than new. That gives me eight new 12AX7's to add to my collection. Yeah, no junk tubes! I'm going to be in Oklahoma this weekend, so I won't be back at it until Monday.
> 
> This concludes "Phase 1."
> 
> Marty



I just had taken possession of six Mullards, a Raytheon High Gain Black Plate and the RCA/Mullard ICBM. The ICBM generated a lot of posts due to its massive gain capabilities. Here again is a super high gain tube that worked in V2 very well. On the other hand, some high gain tubes squeal like crazy in the V2 position. It's all part of the tube mystery. 

This was a great time to be jumping onto the forum. Josh was still with us and I was becoming good online buddies with Josh and Joe. Alan came in a little later, but is considered one of the original members of this thread. It was all about who posted and participated in tube rolling. Shortly after this post, several of us began massive experimentation with tubes. As the tests expanded and I became comfortable with certain members, I shipped tubes to these members to roll with the option of buying what they liked. This in turn caused us all to start rolling British and European made tubes, besides the American brands. After this, our individual tastes started showing and that is a good thing.

Am I using the same tubes in my amps as I was in May 2009? No...no way. I am using a completely different lineup. Although the 7025 is still a great back up, it was great for getting a clean channel that you could put certain FX through with great results. Tonally, it is sort of neutral sounding, it doesn't have the tone of a 1959 Gray Plate, but matching it up to a BP does sound good and I won't argue with that set-up.

However, due to Josh, Joe and Alan, I have expanded my tube horizons and I dig a medium hot Amperex in V1 and a stout BP in V2. I also have one amp with a Telefunken in V1 and a stout Mullard in V2. Both of these amps sound very nice. Of course, rounding up V3 and V4 are Sylvania Gray Plates.

So yes, a lot has happened since we started rolling our stock Marshall tubes with Russian, Chinese, American and European tubes. Are some current production (CP) tubes worth a damn? Yes, some are. However, the tonality is just not quite there as it is in NOS tubes.

Oh, I still have the original ICBM. Josh wanted to try it out and it was too much for his amp. This tube is balanced at 35-35. Wanna try it out?

Stay tuned for the next segment of FLASHBACK MOMENT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those RFT's are stout (I know, you love that word). I have several that I wonder if I can use them. I would say put the Mullard in V1 and the RFT in V2. I think that will give you the better overall tone. I think the tone qualities of a Mullard is a little better than the RFT. Roll them in both slots and you decide.
> 
> Ratt, Joe, what is your take on this? Joe has had more RFT experience and I would like to hear his answer.



That's exactly how I 'd handle it. Try it both ways and see what I liked better. Its real close for me as far as which one I like better character wise but if I want more of that one tube coming through its going in V1. Either is a great choice. I will say I like an RFT in V1 more than I like a Mullard in V1 but we are splitting hairs at this point.

Right now its all about the Telefunken in V1 and the BP in V2.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> FLASHBACK MOMENT #2--THE ICBM ARRIVED. 4/16/2009, PAGE 4.
> 
> 
> 
> I just had taken possession of six Mullards, a Raytheon High Gain Black Plate and the RCA/Mullard ICBM. The ICBM generated a lot of posts due to its massive gain capabilities. Here again is a super high gain tube that worked in V2 very well. On the other hand, some high gain tubes squeal like crazy in the V2 position. It's all part of the tube mystery.
> 
> This was a great time to be jumping onto the forum. Josh was still with us and I was becoming good online buddies with Josh and Joe. Alan came in a little later, but is considered one of the original members of this thread. It was all about who posted and participated in tube rolling. Shortly after this post, several of us began massive experimentation with tubes. As the tests expanded and I became comfortable with certain members, I shipped tubes to these members to roll with the option of buying what they liked. This in turn caused us all to start rolling British and European made tubes, besides the American brands. After this, our individual tastes started showing and that is a good thing.
> 
> Am I using the same tubes in my amps as I was in May 2009? No...no way. I am using a completely different lineup. Although the 7025 is still a great back up, it was great for getting a clean channel that you could put certain FX through with great results. Tonally, it is sort of neutral sounding, it doesn't have the tone of a 1959 Gray Plate, but matching it up to a BP does sound good and I won't argue with that set-up.
> 
> However, due to Josh, Joe and Alan, I have expanded my tube horizons and I dig a medium hot Amperex in V1 and a stout BP in V2. I also have one amp with a Telefunken in V1 and a stout Mullard in V2. Both of these amps sound very nice. Of course, rounding up V3 and V4 are Sylvania Gray Plates.
> 
> So yes, a lot has happened since we started rolling our stock Marshall tubes with Russian, Chinese, American and European tubes. Are some current production (CP) tubes worth a damn? Yes, some are. However, the tonality is just not quite there as it is in NOS tubes.
> 
> Oh, I still have the original ICBM. Josh wanted to try it out and it was too much for his amp. This tube is balanced at 35-35. Wanna try it out?
> 
> Stay tuned for the next segment of FLASHBACK MOMENT.



This tube needs to be a giant poster called the ICBM! It'd be great hanging in the jamroom or somebodies studio!

Those first days of rolling tubes were incredible. The ground work we were laying down plus really getting to know your own amp and how to manipulate it for certain tones and feel. I get goofy all over again think'n about it. Couldn't wait to get on here and tell about what the amp sounded like each time changes were made.

I think one of the main results of all this is measured in how excited I am to play my amp each day and how I'm thinking throughout the day what I've tried and what I haven't. That no matter what it sounds killa now when I lay into the strings. 

The other of course is the good buddies I have now. My partners in crime hehe. We relate you know what I mean... and my Marshall bruthers are here to help me out in a pinch whenever I need it. Trust worthy.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Right now its all about the Telefunken in V1 and the BP in V2.



Amen, brother! That's where I ended up, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Amen, brother! That's where I ended up, too.



I'm getting great results. Can you feel my smile...

I think Marty's going to make some money off me on this batch...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Everyone has come down with "Telefunken Fever." Worse than swine flu. Makes you hear things.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have been going through the back pages of the thread and I was looking for something in particular. Made it to page 16 and still a no go. It was a conversation I had with Josh about a thread I started asking about the signal path of a DSL/TSL. I posted a link to the thread on my reply post to Josh. I have tried all sorts of ways to find it and nothing works. I guess I will try and go through another 10 pages or so. Man, I forgot about some of the arguments that took place. Good one's too!


----------



## RiverRatt

It's Karma, man. That's what happens for that "needle in a haystack" comment a few pages ago.


----------



## wegman

I wish I was smarter on this stuff so I could contribute more. 

Question gentleman.

How important is the PI tube? I was running a GE there and I wasn't like the dynamics. I swapped it out for black plate and all of the sudden the dynamics changed and things got more articulate. I didn't think the PI had that much bearing on playability of amp but it does mine.

Anyone else experience this?


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> I wish I was smarter on this stuff so I could contribute more.



Don't worry about it. It'll come to you. I'm just a dumbass who reads a lot.



wegman said:


> Question gentleman.
> 
> How important is the PI tube? I was running a GE there and I wasn't like the dynamics. I swapped it out for black plate and all of the sudden the dynamics changed and things got more articulate. I didn't think the PI had that much bearing on playability of amp but it does mine.
> 
> Anyone else experience this?



There were pages about this further back in the thread. Changing the PI tube can completely change the character of the amp. I used to always use a Raytheon 12AT7 short black plate for a PI. Now I prefer a high-gain 12AX7. Tastes change. I think I liked the 12AT7 back before I got some good glass in the preamp & power amp because it took away some of the harsh upper mids and treble. That's not an issue anymore, so now I like to open the amp up and let it breathe.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> There were pages about this further back in the thread. Changing the PI tube can completely change the character of the amp. I used to always use a Raytheon 12AT7 short black plate for a PI. Now I prefer a high-gain 12AX7. Tastes change. I think I liked the 12AT7 back before I got some good glass in the preamp & power amp because it took away some of the harsh upper mids and treble. That's not an issue anymore, so now I like to open the amp up and let it breathe.



Thanks for info RiverRatt.

This thread is monster. I have gone back and read some parts but it is just over whelming.

Yes changing my PI tube totally changed the character of the amp, for the better.

As I was rolling tubes tonight I noticed that the orange letter RCA's I have are different. One has long plates and another short plates. I just noticed this. The long plates sound way better then short plates. Is there some magical difference between long plates and short plates?


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Thanks for info RiverRatt.
> 
> This thread is monster. I have gone back and read some parts but it is just over whelming.
> 
> Yes changing my PI tube totally changed the character of the amp, for the better.
> 
> As I was rolling tubes tonight I noticed that the orange letter RCA's I have are different. One has long plates and another short plates. I just noticed this. The long plates sound way better then short plates. Is there some magical difference between long plates and short plates?



The short plates are less microphonic then the long plates. As far as one sounding better that is up to your ears.


----------



## racko7566

Ok guys, I just got my first mullards and I'm pretty exited. My line up as of now consists of 9 NOS tubes. First 4 from Marty, an Amperex 7025, a black plate Raytheon 12ax7, and 2 sylvania 12ax7 grey plates. I like all of the above but I happen to love the blackplate that seems dead when I look at it hot when rollin, but its far from dead in sound. After Marty hooking me up with my first NOS tubes I went to Ebay to try my first auction. I bid on and won 2 old RCA tubes.
One was a 1952 RCA BLACK PLATE JRC 12AX7 and the other was an RCA 12AX7A 12AX7. Both are good sounding tubes. Now my new additions to the lack of oxegen club are 2 mullards and a SUPER STRONG SYLVANIA 12AX7 thats way hot. The one mullard is a 1966 coded 163 B6B1 mullard 12ax7 tube with the short gray plates and the O getter. I do remember in the best thread of all times, Marty saying after 66 they were using old junk equipment so I stay away from post 66. Well Im of on a rollin session, Any suggestions for new combos for me? ps. sorry for the super run on sentence.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, you're getting some smoking tubes there. Those JRC's are some of the very best older RCA's. And a 1952? Geez, they'd only been making 12AX7's for five years. That's a baby. Make sure you post a picture of that one. I'd love to see it. Also, a lot of people feel that a 12AX7A tube is as quiet as a 7025. I think there is some truth to that. I think a 12AX7A is a much better tube versus a regular 12AX7. It's not a night and day difference, but there's something there that makes it better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It's Karma, man. That's what happens for that "needle in a haystack" comment a few pages ago.



Well I found it pretty fast, so if you ever need a needle found, call me.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn, you're getting some smoking tubes there. Those JRC's are some of the very best older RCA's. And a 1952? Geez, they'd only been making 12AX7's for five years. That's a baby. Make sure you post a picture of that one. I'd love to see it. Also, a lot of people feel that a 12AX7A tube is as quiet as a 7025. I think there is some truth to that. I think a 12AX7A is a much better tube versus a regular 12AX7. It's not a night and day difference, but there's something there that makes it better.



Heres the 52 slant getter RCA Marty.






Its a great tube, but I havent found its mate like I have with the Raytheon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow, great picture. So it has a slant getter? Is it a black plate as well? Looks like it measured pretty high. Speaking of that...


----------



## RiverRatt

The wires coming off those filaments look scary. I'd be afraid to swap that one out while hot. 

Racko, If I'm using RCAs, I like to use one in both V1 and V2. They seem to sound better that way to me. Of course, low gain in V1 and high gain in V2.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow, great picture. So it has a slant getter? Is it a black plate as well? Looks like it measured pretty high. Speaking of that...



Yes, yes, and yeaaaa!!!


----------



## Procter2812

Well...

I got the Telefunken Long plate and to be honest it sounded real good but was noisy. Background hiss. I paid 18 quid for that sweet piece and it was noisy!

So im gonna ask the seller for a refund... not good.


----------



## ken361

Procter2812 said:


> Well...
> 
> I got the Telefunken Long plate and to be honest it sounded real good but was noisy. Background hiss. I paid 18 quid for that sweet piece and it was noisy!
> 
> So im gonna ask the seller for a refund... not good.



try in the v2?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Probably be best to get a refund, because if it has a problem, it will just get worse. If the seller offers a return, go for it and find yourself a good Telefunken. You'll be happier in the long run.

I just sent a bunch to Solar (Joe) and he went nuts over those damn Tele's.


----------



## racko7566

RiverRatt said:


> The wires coming off those filaments look scary. I'd be afraid to swap that one out while hot.
> 
> Racko, If I'm using RCAs, I like to use one in both V1 and V2. They seem to sound better that way to me. Of course, low gain in V1 and high gain in V2.



Hey RiverRatt, I'm gonna try my Rcas together tonight in v1 and v2 Ill let you know how they sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't wait to hear the low down tonight from Mr. Sunshine. He rolled a bunch of Tele's and he will be telling us the dope on them later this evening.


----------



## ken361

dropped the mullard ,v1, v2 tele, v3 sylvania long plate,v4 stock,v5 stock. its pretty smooth! least for today lol!


----------



## racko7566

Just noticed the tops of my 2 new mullards are pinched like the amperex I got, but the mullards are pinched two ways. Is this on all mullards or just certain years? As I speak ( cyberneticly)  Im getting ready to try the mullard with an amperex in v1 and the mully in v2. Be right back


----------



## MartyStrat54

There were about fifteen or so tube companies in England and Europe and they all were under the control of Philips. This is why they look and sound very much alike. Philips actually did all the design work and then they would say, "Here Mullard...make these." "Amperex, make about 30,000 of this design for us."

I just bought a bunch of Electrohome 12AX7's. These are Canadian Philips and sound ever bit as good as an Amperex. These have the classic pinched top as well.


----------



## solarburn

Here is a bit of a report on the Tele's I've been roll'n. My line up:
V1-Tele's Smooth or Ribbed for her pleasure
V2-Raytheon BP
V3-RCA (12AX7A)
PI-RFT

I was looking at input from guyz who use the Tele's in their amps and alot of them were "Audiophiles" using them in HIFI amps. I'm using a guitar amp. Their descriptions of what the Tele's sound like are in a HIFI environment. What I found differs from most of their descriptions on what a Tele sounds like in my amp. However there were some similarities here and there.

My rolling depicts what they sound like with my whole tube line up including the power tubes. Guitar is an HSS strat into 412 of Greenbacks.

Smooth Telefunkens: 

Open sounding, mellow or a bit smooth with clarity and articulation. I hear all strings when chording and single notes while soloing bloom into being and are very upfront in the mix whether on the crunch channel or on the gain channel. Very nice harmonic overtones that will break into musical feedback readily. The lows are warm, round and clear, mids seem balanced and the highs are clear & and not harsh. I think the Telefunken accentuates the chewiness of the BP when soloing the higher registers due to their transparency.

These have added more dynamics to my picking and I really feel the playing. Bends sustain and I can hold a note or dump it quickly, the response is fast. The amp cleans up very well with these in V1. The neck pup is all women tones. Warm, fat and articulate. This is a panty dropper or a pasty twirler . The bridge pup is full, open and round and sings.

Ribbed Telefunken: 

Everything is generally the same. Dynamics, response, clarity, articulation etc...The only difference that I can sense is the ribbed are a little more trebley or toppy. Not harsh though! I think they have just a bit of a bite where the smooth are just mellower sounding.

What I really love about the Tele's is the dynamic feel of how I play. Picking changes from hard to soft, notes being held to sing or mute and you hear all these. Finger pressure on the strings from man handling them to playing soft open chords, picking each string. I hear every thing I do when I invoke those hard and soft dynamics.

This is my opinion but I feel my amp has gone up another notch in feel and tone since I've put the 6CA7EH's, Raytheon BP back in and now the Telefunken in V1. For hot rodded blues, rock and hardrock this tube pack bangs! This with midgain southern rock stuff gives me a "rock" boner.

So in closing I can't recommend Telefunken 12AX7's/ECC83's due to there being a shortage from me buying all of them.


----------



## racko7566

Nicely done informative post. Thanks Solar. For my loss of eyesight. LOLOLOLOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I don't think anybody has ever gotten a toob boner before. Thanks a lot for the Tele lowdown Mr. Sunshine. Goodness, all that talk about panties and twirly thing-a-ma-chigs. Incredible!

TELEFUNKEN MADNESS IS SWEEPING THE THREAD!


----------



## racko7566

You know what guys? FUNK off cause I'm still in love with little raytheona, and I dont cheat. ( she's listening shushhh....) but seriously, when she leaves I'll be callin someone for some Tele's too....


----------



## racko7566

Ohhhhhh 69th post!!!!!


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> You know what guys? FUNK off cause I'm still in love with little raytheona, and I dont cheat. ( she's listening shushhh....) but seriously, when she leaves I'll be callin someone for some Tele's too....



Luv the Raytheon BP. The 2 togezer zey danze so vell...


----------



## wegman

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Luv the Raytheon BP. The 2 togezer zey danze so vell...



Yes the Raytheon BP's kick it old school. I am running two of them (one in V2 and one in the PI) and they really smooth things out yet provide that oomph.

From what I have been reading I need to get infected by "Telefunken Fever" but I am pretty happy with the Raytheon BP's


----------



## racko7566

I have a couple old blackplates if any one trustworthy would like to trade for a week for a tele.


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Yes the Raytheon BP's kick it old school. I am running two of them (one in V2 and one in the PI) and they really smooth things out yet provide that oomph.
> 
> From what I have been reading I need to get infected by "Telefunken Fever" but I am pretty happy with the Raytheon BP's



Sounds to me like you got a great sound go'n already. Those Bp's deliver the meaty mids. I would like to have a small collection of them...


----------



## movo

It seems that you guys prefer different makes of tubes instead of 3 matched ones. Is it because it will generate a special sound or something? Or do I have to spit these 83 pages about preamp tubes to find out.. :Ohno:

I think I'm going to buy some NOS preamp tubes for my JCM800 Superbass lately


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Probably be best to get a refund, because if it has a problem, it will just get worse. If the seller offers a return, go for it and find yourself a good Telefunken. You'll be happier in the long run.
> 
> I just sent a bunch to Solar (Joe) and he went nuts over those damn Tele's.



The guy was cool about it 
He sending me another Telefunken.

Iv spent a bomb this week... bought 2 new speakers, a big muff pi, 2 NOS valves Need to get more shifts at work


----------



## solarburn

movo said:


> It seems that you guys prefer different makes of tubes instead of 3 matched ones. Is it because it will generate a special sound or something? Or do I have to spit these 83 pages about preamp tubes to find out.. :Ohno:
> 
> I think I'm going to buy some NOS preamp tubes for my JCM800 Superbass lately



Yes, each tube has its own character regarding gain factor and lows-mids-highs.

We are mixing them for specific results. Its more simple than it looks.

For example I have 4 preamp tubes. V1 & V2 are going to be my more dominant tone/gain contributers where V3 and the PI will not be as much. So I focus on the first 2 preamp slots for building most of the tone/gain characteristics I want. I put a known well rounded tube in V3 and V4(PI).

The PI slot can add some variation too so rolling that one with different tubes can help the overall tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

I dug out some of my stuff that hasn't been in the rotation for awhile last night. An RFT in V1 and the Raytheon BP in V2 was a killer combintation for belting out some classic rock. I don't think I'd paired these two up yet. They were noticeably darker and thicker, with really interesting harmonics from the RFT. There was a harmonic 5th that would get more noticeable as the chord sustained. It's the only tube I have that had that quality. Not as articulate as the Tele, but still a great sound. I may have to leave this setup alone for awhile.


----------



## metra2002

Love these pics! I just love tubes/valves. The way they look, the way they sound... They are just too cool. I confess I am a tube gear-head. Can't help it. 

Alex
metra2002


----------



## solarburn

metra2002 said:


> Love these pics! I just love tubes/valves. The way they look, the way they sound... They are just too cool. I confess I am a tube gear-head. Can't help it.
> 
> Alex
> metra2002



You weirdo!


----------



## racko7566

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You weirdo!



should I spin a tube around and post a back shot.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I dug out some of my stuff that hasn't been in the rotation for awhile last night. An RFT in V1 and the Raytheon BP in V2 was a killer combintation for belting out some classic rock. I don't think I'd paired these two up yet. They were noticeably darker and thicker, with really interesting harmonics from the RFT. There was a harmonic 5th that would get more noticeable as the chord sustained. It's the only tube I have that had that quality. Not as articulate as the Tele, but still a great sound. I may have to leave this setup alone for awhile.



That sounds good. I love to hang around those classic overdriven rock sounds.

You know I like the RFT's and they seem to make it back into my rotations as well. I have tried the same combo but not with the 6CA7's yet. You say'n that makes me want to try it again. 

I seem to like the RFT's in V1 mostly and then pairing them up with other tubes in V2. In fact my favs now are the RFT's(V1), Raytheon BP's(V2) and now the Telefunkens(V1) in the DSL. Gonna have to try some Tele's in the Night Train soon too.

I don't think I've had another preamp tube that articulates like the Telefunken does.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> should I spin a tube around and post a back shot.


----------



## RiverRatt

Jeez, it's going to be a day or two before I can hear again. I just spent 3 hours at a high school football playoff game sitting next to this cowbellbitch, her airhorn-toting husband, and her fat loud son who yelled "GOOOOOO TIIIIIIGGGGGEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSS" every time he could catch his breath. And I thought my Marshall was loud. I'm not kidding. My left ear feels like I just played 3 sets in a little bar with a big amp. Thank God we lost.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Jeez, it's going to be a day or two before I can hear again. I just spent 3 hours at a high school football playoff game sitting next to this cowbellbitch, her airhorn-toting husband, and her fat loud son who yelled "GOOOOOO TIIIIIIGGGGGEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRSSSSS" every time he could catch his breath. And I thought my Marshall was loud. I'm not kidding. My left ear feels like I just played 3 sets in a little bar with a big amp. Thank God we lost.



That sounds more miserable than a power tube blowing. Airhorn and cowbell?

You were tortured.:eek2:

I just got back from the movie 2012. Intense special effects deliver. Perty good time. Scared my daughters good hehe. They're ok. They liked it.


----------



## wegman

I finally got access to a camera that takes decent close ups so here are some shots of my tubes if anyone is interested.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nicely done. The only thing better than free beer is free tubes.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nicely done. The only thing better than free beer is free tubes.



Free hott girls?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd like to put my tube into their sockets.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Hello Chaps,

I just posted in the power tube thread, but have been reading this one since i was knee high to a grasshopper, or at least it seems that way. Lots of great info and points of view in this epic thread, glad to be able to share in it with you all.
Anyways to buisness i came across these from a seller on ebay and I know the price is a little steep but i am tempted if they can be identified as a decent version of the tube

12AX7 BLACK PLATE RAYTHEON NOS on eBay (end time 01-Dec-09 10:15:53 GMT)

hope you can help from the little pics ther are on the auction

cheers

Spirit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Isn't 32.50 pounds a lot of money? They look NOS. These are coveted slant top getters. They sound very good. May be made by VALVO and relabeled by Raytheon. That's probably why they are over in the UK. 

The only reason I can think why they are shipping in generic white boxes, is because they found a partial bulk container (lucky dogs).

Anyway, these slant tops are one of the better tubes for guitar in V1.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Isn't 32.50 pounds a lot of money? They look NOS. These are coveted slant top getters. They sound very good. May be made by VALVO and relabeled by Raytheon. That's probably why they are over in the UK.
> 
> The only reason I can think why they are shipping in generic white boxes, is because they found a partial bulk container (lucky dogs).
> 
> Anyway, these slant tops are one of the better tubes for guitar in V1.



yeah 32 quid is a lot of money for one sodding tube, but whattygunnado? Maybe someone will treat me to one for Christmas


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, that would be nice...a gift box the day before Christmas mailed to your house and inside it would be 12 tubes (the 12 Days of Christmas). Six would be V1's and the other six would be hot V2's. Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, Raytheon and White label RCA's.

Man, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it.


----------



## RiverRatt

That tube is a JAN Raytheon - I don't remember seeing one with a slant D getter, but that's what it is. The Valvos had a round getter. Tubedepot.com has them for $199.95!?!?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> That tube is a JAN Raytheon - I don't remember seeing one with a slant D getter, but that's what it is. The Valvos had a round getter. Tubedepot.com has them for $199.95!?!?



I have two of the $200 JAN Raytheon's and they have different lettering on them and a regular "O" getter.

Can you tell if that is a "D" or and "O" getter? That looks like the slant getter Raytheon that you ID'd as the Valvo.

BTW-I never heard back from the guy with the side-getters. If he was to contact me now, I wouldn't do business with him. To unprofessional for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, you have the Valvos in-hand, but the ones I saw looked like the getter was sitting right on top of the mica, and all were tilted at a 45 degree angle. The Raytheon getter is sitting up on the post, and I'm sure it's a square or D getter. Enlarge the first picture in the auction and you can tell that the back is straight where it's soldered to the post. Plus, there aren't any seams in the top. 

That's really strange about the D getter RCAs. I see his name mentioned on a lot of forums as being THE tube guru and a lot of people rave about his tone packages. Maybe you were right - the tubes might not have been what he thought or might have been rejects, or someone may have beaten him to them. If the RCA cleartops are as good and rare as all that, seems like he would have picked them up before the others.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well he was priced high and I was willing to pay it as long as the product was good. Something happened and I guess we will never know.

OFF TOPIC: You wonder about people on EBAY selling tubes. This one seller was trying to come on as a tube guru. However, I found out all about him when he described his tubes. "RARE RCA 6CA7's." Hell yeah they're rare. RCA never made 6CA7's. They are Fat Boy Sylvania's relabeled by RCA. I had to go on a quick trip down to Oklahoma and then back to northern Kansas all in one day, so I couldn't try my pounce tactics. No, I had to do it the old fashioned way...lots of money down on an initial bid. Well I got back and I won them, but they cost me with shipping $161. These are a unique design for a single getter, that's why I wanted them. I actually prefer the double OO getter style, but I'm finding out that any 6CA7 is worth about $60 to $75 each. A NIB matched quad sold for $499, Buy It Now.

In the morning, I'll wake up and see if I won anything else.


----------



## ken361

http://

marty tell me about this RCA traded one of tele's for it 1950's rca test at 1600/1250
http://


http://


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well depending on the tester, 1250 is right at minimum good. If it was tested on a Hickok. Also they did have the red/orange logo in the late 50's, but most were white logo's. Does it say 12AX7A? Looks like it does. If so, that would be a real early version. I'm also seeing a square, slant getter at the top.

This tube would be best as a V1. All you can do is put it in and try it. It should sound acceptable. Could also be used in any position except V2.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well depending on the tester, 1250 is right at minimum good. If it was tested on a Hickok. Also they did have the red/orange logo in the late 50's, but most were white logo's. Does it say 12AX7A? Looks like it does. If so, that would be a real early version. I'm also seeing a square, slant getter at the top.
> 
> This tube would be best as a V1. All you can do is put it in and try it. It should sound acceptable. Could also be used in any position except V2.



yeah has some orange on the label whats left of it anyway, and does say 12ax7a on it. thanks~!


----------



## wegman

Can some one please identify this tube? These are the pre-amp tubes that came originally with my amp.




I just found out I have a RCA 12AX7A. 

Is there something special about this tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

How bad do you want a Telefunken?

Telefunken Diamond ECC803S ECC83 12AX7 matched NIB pair - eBay (item 120491187154 end time Nov-16-09 20:32:56 PST)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> How bad do you want a Telefunken?
> 
> Telefunken Diamond ECC803S ECC83 12AX7 matched NIB pair - eBay (item 120491187154 end time Nov-16-09 20:32:56 PST)



That's just obscene!


----------



## MartyStrat54

13 bidders and a day left to go. The seller is a jerk out of Perth, Australia.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> 13 bidders and a day left to go. The seller is a jerk out of Perth, Australia.




That dude is sniff'n glue. I could buy an amp, nice 412 cab or even a nice guitar for the price he wants for 2 tubes. I mean I'll admit I've spent some coin on NOS but I have alot of tubes to show for it that will last along time to come. I don't have to buy new ones when its time to replace old ones.

Yeah I would never. I don't know who's worse, the guy sell'n for that much or the bidders who are buying them. And just cause someone may have money to burn doesn't change the fact they are idiots for do'n it.

Wish I had a box of them. Lots of people out there to take advantage of...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I'm getting low on Raytheon Black Plates. I tried to buy some today and they jumped up in the last five minutes. Four of them went for $174 and the other four for $158. These tubes are now going for as much, or more, than the finer European tubes. I don't know what caused this, but it's been going on for a long time and it looks like a trend that's here to stay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Can some one please identify this tube? These are the pre-amp tubes that came originally with my amp.
> 
> View attachment 1532
> 
> 
> I just found out I have a RCA 12AX7A.
> 
> Is there something special about this tube?



No, it's just an old original equipment (OE) tube. With that red print and the funky plates, it almost looks Chinese. Ratt or Solar...any comments?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I'm getting low on Raytheon Black Plates. I tried to buy some today and they jumped up in the last five minutes. Four of them went for $174 and the other four for $158. These tubes are now going for as much, or more, than the finer European tubes. I don't know what caused this, but it's been going on for a long time and it looks like a trend that's here to stay.



Bad news for us guyz who know and use these tubes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No, it's just an old original equipment (OE) tube. With that red print and the funky plates, it almost looks Chinese. Ratt or Solar...any comments?



I thought Chinese right away.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I did some tube buying over the weekend.

16 Electrohome (Canadian Philips-Sounds like a Bugle Boy Amperex.) 12AX7

12 Mullards (Relabeled Mullards) 12AX7

5 Matsushita 12AX7 tubes (Hey Ratt, I got a hold of some of these.)

2 RCA by Sylvania Fat Boy 6CA7's (Single O getter stovepipe style.) 

6 Telefunken Ribbed Plate 12AX7

I think that covers it all. It takes a lot of time trying to pick up some tubes. I just wish I could win some black plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SUPER FLASHBACK***1991***

We actually had a van with two roadies and we would drive up to the club in my blue and white 1958 Chevy Belair.

This was when we were just a two guitar, bass and drums outfit. My favorite type of rock band. Bass player and I shared the lead vocals. Rock on!






Gino-Drums, Marty-Guitar/Vocals, Michael-Bass/Vocals, Vince-Guitars


----------



## el zilcho

Anybody hear of EAT? They've been making a KT88 for a while but it's a wee bit expensive (like, more than my amp expensive). The good part is that they actually list ratings and specs for their tubes (800v plate for the KT88). 

I noticed that they started making an ECC803S, but...it's got a big ol' heatsink glued around it??? I have no idea how much it costs.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> SUPER FLASHBACK***1991***
> 
> We actually had a van with two roadies and we would drive up to the club in my blue and white 1958 Chevy Belair.
> 
> This was when we were just a two guitar, bass and drums outfit. My favorite type of rock band. Bass player and I shared the lead vocals. Rock on!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gino-Drums, Marty-Guitar/Vocals, Michael-Bass/Vocals, Vince-Guitars




That's a great pic Marty! Dat's some shit there!

You guyz looked the part man. R&R style all the way to da club.

Hairdoos kicked ass!

I want to be in that band...


----------



## wegman

wegman said:


> Can some one please identify this tube? These are the pre-amp tubes that came originally with my amp.
> 
> View attachment 1532
> 
> 
> I just found out I have a RCA 12AX7A.
> 
> Is there something special about this tube?




Chines tubes eh? 

Thanks guys.


----------



## ken361

ken361 said:


> http://
> 
> marty tell me about this RCA traded one of tele's for it 1950's rca test at 1600/1250
> http://
> 
> 
> http://



These RCA's sound pretty smooth! I like it!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> SUPER FLASHBACK***1991***
> 
> We actually had a van with two roadies and we would drive up to the club in my blue and white 1958 Chevy Belair.
> 
> This was when we were just a two guitar, bass and drums outfit. My favorite type of rock band. Bass player and I shared the lead vocals. Rock on!
> 
> 
> Gino-Drums, Marty-Guitar/Vocals, Michael-Bass/Vocals, Vince-Guitars



Great photo! Your drummer is seriously channeling Bonzo.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Great photo! Your drummer is seriously channeling Bonzo.



Marty kinds looks like the guitar player for Anthrax! back in the 80's


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I thought Chinese right away.



Yup. You can get them from online stores for $8.95. I remember back in the early '90s getting new tube amps in at the store where I worked. Sometimes the Chinese tubes would go off like a flashbulb when you turned the power on the first time.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> 5 Matsushita 12AX7 tubes (Hey Ratt, I got a hold of some of these.)



Actually, I was looking at the EL34s. How are the 12AX7s? I'll bet they sound pretty good.

I probably won't be buying any tubes until after Christmas. Gotta pay for those laptops and XBOX 360s and games and clothes and who knows what.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wasn't it you that I was talking to about these tubes? They are made on Philips/Mullard equipment and they have the slant O getter with pinched top. They are supposed to be incredible tubes. I know they tested very well on a TV-7 tester.

Yeah, I know we talked about the 6CA7's. They are supposed to be knock out tubes as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the kind words regarding "CONDOR." We actually did pretty good in the Phoenix market. We also played the main stage three years in a row at the AZ State Fair. It didn't pay anything, but man, talk about publicity! 

I trained a friend and his buddy on how to set up our various PA systems. Our largest system was custom built by me. Everything looked store built. This was a system with two, 18-inch subs going from 35Hz to 100Hz and then to two, horn loaded cabs with a JBL D130's in it handling 100Hz to 5KHz and then to two, upper mid cabs containing two JBL D110's in each cabinet handling 5KHz to 10Khz. Topping it off was a JBL two-inch driver and horn going from 10KHz to 20KHz. We ran this system four-way mono with JBL electronic crossover. It fucking screamed. I also made all of the stage monitors. Fifteen-inch JBL D130 with a JBL Bullet horn. Those would shave you if you cranked them.

At this time, we had our own recording studio. Due to personnel changes, a lot of the tapes "walked off." Yeah, we were still using a TEAC 3340 at 15IPS and a TEAC two track mastering deck. Old school shit all the way. 

I gave up playing in a band in late 1992. I got married. She didn't want me in the bars with other women around. That's when I fucked up. The band broke up and a lot of people were angry. A lot of my stuff was removed by other band members. Their thinking was it had become community property. Like a fool, I sold two modded pre-CBS Fender Bassman's. Man, I would like to have them now. Cha-ching!

There is so much more to the story, but I will close for now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had asked about the EL34s over on the power tube thread. We've probably covered the 12AX7s here, too. The Matsushita EL34s look to be around the same price as RFTs and I've read reviews that said they are about as close to Mullards as you can get. Being a Philips company, I'm sure they are good. I was just asking if anyone had any hands-on experience with them. Looking forward to your review of the 12AX7s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

el zilcho said:


> Anybody hear of EAT? They've been making a KT88 for a while but it's a wee bit expensive (like, more than my amp expensive). The good part is that they actually list ratings and specs for their tubes (800v plate for the KT88).
> 
> I noticed that they started making an ECC803S, but...it's got a big ol' heatsink glued around it??? I have no idea how much it costs.



European Audio Team-EAT-Made their rep on 300B tubes and then the KT88's. They are more geared for the high end Hi FI crowd.

The heatsink slips on. It can be removed. Everything they make is high dollar, because their batch runs are kept low for quality control.

Here is a page that shows prices. It looks as if the ECC803S is around $210 each as the heatsink is $40.

Too much for me to handle.

https://www.audioadvisor.com/products.asp?dept=166


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I had asked about the EL34s over on the power tube thread. We've probably covered the 12AX7s here, too. The Matsushita EL34s look to be around the same price as RFTs and I've read reviews that said they are about as close to Mullards as you can get. Being a Philips company, I'm sure they are good. I was just asking if anyone had any hands-on experience with them. Looking forward to your review of the 12AX7s.



I'm going to closely inspect them against the "Valvo" Raytheon and see if they are the same. The way Philips worked was (as I've said before) they had all of the designers. The prototypes were farmed out to one of the many companies they owned. (You can even find Amperex branded Mullards.) This is why Valvo may have been selected to make the slant top getter, although I have also seen some Miniwatt slant tops as well. All of these were Philips design. Now, Philips also had control over the Matsushita plant as well. They may have liked the performance of the slant top 12AX7 and decided that is what they would have Matsushita make. 

I'm hoping one will be as stout as my Valvo Raytheon, as I would like to A/B it in my amp. When I get them, I will test them on my tester and then I will run them in an amp. I got five for $58. Smoking deal. Most people on EBAY that buy tubes are like sheep. They follow the leader. If you know tubes, you can find neat little deals, because no one cares about Japanese tubes. The Japanese made some of the best 12AX7 style tubes. One is the 12DM7. It may have only been made by NEC. If you find one, grab it. I only have two in my inventory...both NEC.

Got our first snow today. I'm glad I got that trip to Oklahoma out of the way.


----------



## wegman

Man I am totally on GE tubes. I swapped out my power tubes (I went back to the GT's) and it totally changed the way the GE tubes sound. I have one GE in V1 and one in V2 and I totally have got my sound. Chords just grind away and solo's are clean and articulate. The Ge's are very quiet to, not alot of noise. Is there anything special about the GE tubes? I believe they are long plates. They sound and react totally different then any other tube I have tried in the V1 and V2 spots. I like them better then the RCA black plate.

I am in tone heaven. Playing is fun again. I am still looking into getting a set of 6CA7's when I have some extra coin because I think those will just be the iceing on the cake.

What a difference.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, you can roll all of your preamp tubes and find a sweet combination and then change out the power tubes and it doesn't sound the same. That's why a pro tube roller has that nice stash of tubes. He can tackle any type of sound problem with his stash of tubes. I'm working on building a stash of tubes for an amp I don't even have yet. But I will get it and then I will have primo tubes to put in it. Yeah, baby!


----------



## solarburn

Yeah when you change the power tubes its likely you find yourself rolling the preamps all over again. Good to see Wegman it sounds great. I'm luv'n mine too.


----------



## ken361

wegman said:


> Man I am totally on GE tubes. I swapped out my power tubes (I went back to the GT's) and it totally changed the way the GE tubes sound. I have one GE in V1 and one in V2 and I totally have got my sound. Chords just grind away and solo's are clean and articulate. The Ge's are very quiet to, not alot of noise. Is there anything special about the GE tubes? I believe they are long plates. They sound and react totally different then any other tube I have tried in the V1 and V2 spots. I like them better then the RCA black plate.
> 
> I am in tone heaven. Playing is fun again. I am still looking into getting a set of 6CA7's when I have some extra coin because I think those will just be the iceing on the cake.
> 
> What a difference.


the ge's are clean sounding! sorry I meant the RCA regular plates


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is Generation 1 of Condor. Different bass player and drummer. I didn't get along with the bass player. He liked playing wimpy shit. The drummer looked at our set list and said, "Yeah, I can handle it." After the first rehearsal, he told us he didn't know any of the songs. These two guys lasted for about a year. Then we moved on to Generation 2 (that I already posted) and then it became Generation 3, which I didn't like due to how many members there were and all the cry-baby shit and whining.

What does this have to do with Preamp Tubes? Absolutely nothing...but I'm posting it for JOE.






We are in our cabin. We have played one night of a weekend gig. It is about 9 AM and we are already hitting the booze and the party favors. We partied all day and then went back to the cabin, showered, got dressed and went on stage for almost five hours. Rock and Roll, baby!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN,

I got the Matsushita 12AX7 slant getter tubes today and they are the bomb! Had a couple that are screamers, 30-32 and 35-35. The other three were very nice at 24-24, 25-24 and 25-26. I tried the 24-24 with the 30-32 and I have to say it moved me. I think I may have found something here. These are made on Mullard (Philips) equipment. The base of the tube flashes when turned on and the tube has a pinched top. What a bargain for some really great sounding tubes. I'd have to put this combo up against an Amperex and a high gain Amperex. I would have to say that the sound is that close. 

I will post a picture of the slant getter Raytheon up against one of these. 

I will be keeping my eyes open for more of these.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is Generation 1 of Condor. Different bass player and drummer. I didn't get along with the bass player. He liked playing wimpy shit. The drummer looked at our set list and said, "Yeah, I can handle it." After the first rehearsal, he told us he didn't know any of the songs. These two guys lasted for about a year. Then we moved on to Generation 2 (that I already posted) and then it became Generation 3, which I didn't like due to how many members there were and all the cry-baby shit and whining.
> 
> What does this have to do with Preamp Tubes? Absolutely nothing...but I'm posting it for JOE.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We are in our cabin. We have played one night of a weekend gig. It is about 9 AM and we are already hitting the booze and the party favors. We partied all day and then went back to the cabin, showered, got dressed and went on stage for almost five hours. Rock and Roll, baby!!!



A little R&R before the R&R show!

I hate that whiny ass shit that happens but its like its inevitable. The guys I was with were really cool outside of a band context but that shit changes especially when Rock Star-itus rears it's ugly head. I just wanted to play! Couple of the guys had it bad hehe. I mean got really carried away. Broke the band up. Drummer got booted. Hated that. I left shortly after saying see ya! I did get to have some fun though before it got unfun!


----------



## wegman

Can one of you tube masters identify this tube for me? It's an RCA but what I am wondering is it an older one? It is labled Baldwin Pianos in white lettering but it has the octaganol 12AX7 symbol. I don't really care for how these sound and I am wondering why because the RCA's are supposed to be decent from what I have read.

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Can one of you tube masters identify this tube for me? It's an RCA but what I am wondering is it an older one? It is labled Baldwin Pianos in white lettering but it has the octaganol 12AX7 symbol. I don't really care for how these sound and I am wondering why because the RCA's are supposed to be decent from what I have read.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> View attachment 1557



Your picture won't enlarge. I can't tell anything from the little picture. Usually the Baldwins with white ink that were RCA's were good tubes. Look and see if you can locate a small group of letters and numbers. Do you see anything like 57,58,59,60 or 61? As I said to you before, the white RCA's were probably the original tubes. The orange/red logo RCA's were probably replacements. That means the white RCA's that you have might be worn out and that's why they don't sound so good. Just a hunch.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Your picture won't enlarge. I can't tell anything from the little picture. Usually the Baldwins with white ink that were RCA's were good tubes. Look and see if you can locate a small group of letters and numbers. Do you see anything like 57,58,59,60 or 61? As I said to you before, the white RCA's were probably the original tubes. The orange/red logo RCA's were probably replacements. That means the white RCA's that you have might be worn out and that's why they don't sound so good. Just a hunch.



The picture won't enlarge? 

I found several that say 58-52 and then 274 below that on them.

Does that help at all?


----------



## solarburn

Its enlarging for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What??? You mean my mega computer system is malfunctioning??? Man the main sails, swab the deck, choke the parrot.

Okay, I'm back. That helps. Those were made the 52nd week (last week in a year) of 1958.

274 is RCA's EIA number. 

They are probably worn out. This is why I suggested getting the tubes tested. Old organs are great, but sometimes they have worn out tubes or borderline one's. Until you find a tester, you can only guess at what you have.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> What??? You mean my mega computer system is malfunctioning??? Man the main sails, swab the deck, choke the parrot.
> 
> Okay, I'm back. That helps. Those were made the 52nd week (last week in a year) of 1958.
> 
> 274 is RCA's EIA number.
> 
> They are probably worn out. This is why I suggested getting the tubes tested. Old organs are great, but sometimes they have worn out tubes or borderline one's. Until you find a tester, you can only guess at what you have.



Thanks for the info Marty.

Yea the next closest tube tester I found is 52 miles away. The next closest after that I know of is sending them to you. 

I didn't expect to pull primo tubes out of this thing. I was hoping for something workable. I guess I will head down to GB (Green Bay Wi.) and get them tested. The cat down there said he will let me use his tube tester for no charge because a friend of mine does alot of business with him. I think I will do that this weekend. Like you said I will then know what I am working with. 

It's only the Baldwin tubes that sound kind of lifeless and I thought they were supposed to be the best of the bunch so perhaps they are dead as you say.


----------



## solarburn

I'd just send them to Marty. He'll do it for free, just pay shipping both ways which isn't much. Win/win if you ask me. I'd want to know but that's me...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN,
> 
> I got the Matsushita 12AX7 slant getter tubes today and they are the bomb! Had a couple that are screamers, 30-32 and 35-35. The other three were very nice at 24-24, 25-24 and 25-26. I tried the 24-24 with the 30-32 and I have to say it moved me. I think I may have found something here. These are made on Mullard (Philips) equipment. The base of the tube flashes when turned on and the tube has a pinched top. What a bargain for some really great sounding tubes. I'd have to put this combo up against an Amperex and a high gain Amperex. I would have to say that the sound is that close.
> 
> I will post a picture of the slant getter Raytheon up against one of these.
> 
> I will be keeping my eyes open for more of these.



Sounds good! Let me know if you get a surplus of them - I might be interested in a single tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man this is the longest page in the thread. Maybe after I post these pictures it will bump over to page 76.

As promised for the Ratt Man, here are pictures of the Raytheon Slant Getter that might be made by Valvo. Up next to it is one of the five Matsushita Slant Getters I bought. I've already tested two of them (see prior post). The Matsushita's were made on Mullard equipment and that is why the plate (holes) are like a Mullard and not like the Valvo. Also, the O Getter is fastened differently. Other than that, they are pretty close. Conlusion-The Raytheon is not a Japanese made tube. Probably made by Valvo or Miniwatt. Here are some beauty shots.
















All I can say is that if you ever get a chance to buy a Japanese tube, their quality was excellent. They have a reputation of being good copiers. Maybe that's a good thing. These tubes rock and I got them dirt cheap.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a bid in on some. We'll see what happens. And you say they flash, too. That's interesting. I found out awhile ago that Ei tubes will flash. Maybe we should keep a list. "Tubes that Flash". I wonder why the Telefunken won't?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a bid in on some. We'll see what happens. And you say they flash, too. That's interesting. I found out awhile ago that Ei tubes will flash. Maybe we should keep a list. "Tubes that Flash". I wonder why the Telefunken won't?



So far my RFT's and Mullard AT7 flash. Thought there was one more but I can't put my finger on it now...


----------



## solarburn

Put a smooth plate Telefunken in the Night Train. I emailed Vox about the order of the tubes in the NT and the answer is V1 & V2 from Left to right back row standing facing front are power tubes. V3 & V4 are the 12AX7's, V4 being the PI. I see alot of peeps think the order is the usual but it isn't according to Vox.

So I have right now the Russian NOS EL84's in the power section and a Tele in V3 & V4 is an RFT ECC83. 

Again the Tele improved the tone. What I like about these is how the Tele effects soloing. The notes are right up front, round, articulate, warm/smooth but they also sing. The higher frequencies albeit smooth still let your notes scream/sing when you want.

Alot of times smoother or warmer can translate into duller and duller does not sing. Duller gets buried in the sound field. That's exactly what happens with JJ ECC83S's. Frigg'n duller-riffic. 

Anyways...Tele win again especially for blues or rock oriented stuff. Marty I put the 24/24 smooth plate in. Noice!


----------



## ken361

this pic is not my tube but looks similar, maybe a shorter plate

View attachment 1557
[/quote]

Hey marty mine says 22J on the side,have some info on this? RCA 1950's


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> So far my RFT's and Mullard AT7 flash. Thought there was one more but I can't put my finger on it now...



my mullard flashed also


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> So far my RFT's and Mullard AT7 flash. Thought there was one more but I can't put my finger on it now...



My Mullard AT7 CV4004 flashes so bright that it lights the other tubes. You have a RFT that flashes? Mine won't. Does yours look like this one?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> My Mullard AT7 CV4004 flashes so bright that it lights the other tubes. You have a RFT that flashes? Mine won't. Does yours look like this one?



Looks the same. Now its no where near as much as the AT7 but they do when I'm roll'n them.


Fine European and American NOS Audio and Guitar Tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a bid in on some. We'll see what happens. And you say they flash, too. That's interesting. I found out awhile ago that Ei tubes will flash. Maybe we should keep a list. "Tubes that Flash". I wonder why the Telefunken won't?



How about because Philips didn't own them. A Philips tube will flash, so this is about 15 brands made in England, Europe and the USA. And yes, I have certain tubes that look like a railroad flare going off. You could read the paper with the light they put off. Some just barely glow. However, they all sound great.

I like that though. A list of all the tubes that glow.

1.Mullard
2.Amperex
3.Miniwatt
4.Valvo
5.Ei
6.BEL
7.Mazda
8.Lorenz
9.Raytheon Slant Getter (Valvo)

I don't know much about the five or six other W. German tube companies and whether they had any Philips influence. RFT, Tesla and Tungsram??? Three or four other Japanese companies that made copies of Mullards and Philips???

Add yours to the list.


----------



## ken361

ken361 said:


> this pic is not my tube but looks similar, maybe a shorter plate
> 
> View attachment 1557



Hey marty mine says 22J on the side,have some info on this? RCA 1950's[/QUOTE]

bump


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How about because Philips didn't own them.



Philips didn't own Telefunken? I assumed they did, since they are listed in the Philips code book. Mainly though, I was wondering why the Ei flashed the Tele didn't, since Ei was supposed to be a Tele copy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Philips didn't own Telefunken? I assumed they did, since they are listed in the Philips code book. Mainly though, I was wondering why the Ei flashed the Tele didn't, since Ei was supposed to be a Tele copy.



I might be wrong, that's why I am looking for additional feedback. Philips could have acquired interest in Telefunken "after" WWII. American tube lore is difficult enough and then you try and take on what happened in other countries. It's tough. If Philips had interest in Telefunken, I wonders about the four or five other W. German tube makers. Were they supported by Philips? And like I say, what about the Japanese tube makers. There were at least five major companies. Who was behind them? Well I know that Philips was behind two of them. Did they use existing designs or different ones. Tesla was labeling their tubes as RCA into the 80's. I've never run across any of these, but they're out there. Who else was supplying tubes to the USA and relabeling their tubes. I know the Japanese supplied the USA companies well into the 80's. American tube production basically came to a close in 1988 with the end of Philips ECG.

Hit me with some of your knowledge. I will dig into this a little myself. I'm getting new high speed today. It's going to be twice as fast as what I have now. Yippee!


----------



## racko7566

I have to get me one of these for Christmas!!!!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xke4OPpFfas]YouTube - The Tube Roller[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

I just had a discouraging day of tube chasing. First, the organ I've been trying to hook up with was a bust. I finally got by to check it out... it was a Wurlitzer 4300, one of their first all-transistor offerings. Next, I found a Marshall Lead 12 at an antique mall. Nice little amp, but no tubes. I found a plastic Silvertone amp, labeled as "hi-fi" and not very promising. Even if it had a few useful tubes, it wasn't worth the $75 price. I found plenty of old tube radios, all of them too old to be of use. I also found a pair of Telefunken Hi-Fi speakers, but no hi-fi set to go with them. I finally bought a $25 Crybaby wah pedal just so the day wasn't a total loss, and picked up a nice bottle of chianti on the way home to ease the pain.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> I just had a discouraging day of tube chasing. First, the organ I've been trying to hook up with was a bust. I finally got by to check it out... it was a Wurlitzer 4300, one of their first all-transistor offerings. Next, I found a Marshall Lead 12 at an antique mall. Nice little amp, but no tubes. I found a plastic Silvertone amp, labeled as "hi-fi" and not very promising. Even if it had a few useful tubes, it wasn't worth the $75 price. I found plenty of old tube radios, all of them too old to be of use. I also found a pair of Telefunken Hi-Fi speakers, but no hi-fi set to go with them. I finally bought a $25 Crybaby wah pedal just so the day wasn't a total loss, and picked up a nice bottle of chianti on the way home to ease the pain.



Man that sucks. I was really hoping for you to hit it big on that organ. I am sorry to hear things didn't work out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Me too, Alan. That sucks! Damn solid state crap. You know that when MacIntosh went solid state, the salesmen knew the SS amps didn't sound as good as their tube models, but they had to make a living...you know. Hell all the hype behind SS had the consumers running out to the stores to frantically buy SS Hi Fi gear. The great old MacIntosh and Marantz tube amps were sold for pennies on the dollar. These amps now bring over ten thousand dollars or more if in very good condition. You know what the SS amps bring that replaced them? Oh, about $225.

I would really like to upgrade my tube Hi Fi system. If you don't remember, what I do to make it really sing is run a SS subwoofer with an electronic crossover to my little 6BQ5 amp. This gives my little amp a lot more headroom and it can get quite loud. However, I would like to get an old Dynaco 70 with EL34's or some other EL34 Hi Fi amp. I love the sound of tube Hi Fi.

Maybe I'll get lucky and stumble on to something good, but each day the clock is ticking. What I don't find, someone else will. All I can say is I hope we all can have some good luck at finding some good tube stuff.


----------



## Procter2812

racko7566 said:


> I have to get me one of these for Christmas!!!!
> 
> 
> YouTube - The Tube Roller



Thats pretty damn cool!


----------



## racko7566

I know you experienced tube heads probably already seen this, but for you other newbies like myself, on youtube under the Blackburn story theres a six part original factory tour of the early Mullard tubes being made. about 45 mins. long. very interesting stuff. Check it out.


----------



## wegman

To make it easy can you provide us a link? 

Thanks dude


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I actually did accomplish something this weekend. Three Matsushitas for $14.95 shipped. Marty, I can't see the getter on these, so I don't know if they are exactly like yours or not, but at this price, I can't complain. I can't wait to give these a try!! 






"These were tested with my US Military TV-10 Tester that was recalibrated in July. Min for this type is 950 on each side of this dual triode type. One tube tested at 1500-1500, #2 tested at 1500-1750.#3 tested at 1500-1250 They had NO gas or shorts."


----------



## racko7566

Sorry, here it is.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnvKCC6_VDQ]YouTube - Mullard Valves - The Blackburn Story - Part 1 - Works History[/ame]


----------



## wegman

Thanks for the link Racko you rock!


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I actually did accomplish something this weekend. Three Matsushitas for $14.95 shipped. Marty, I can't see the getter on these, so I don't know if they are exactly like yours or not, but at this price, I can't complain. I can't wait to give these a try!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "These were tested with my US Military TV-10 Tester that was recalibrated in July. Min for this type is 950 on each side of this dual triode type. One tube tested at 1500-1500, #2 tested at 1500-1750.#3 tested at 1500-1250 They had NO gas or shorts."



I am glad to hear something worked out. I can't wait to hear how those babies sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

These tubes were made by Matsushita for Philips (the parent company of Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, etc...) using Mullard equipment. Some were even sold under the Amperex brand. If they are even in the same league as the other Philips tubes, they should be very nice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Alan. Sorry for the delay. I got really busy today. Hey your tubes look like round top getters by the way the flashing looks. The slant tops have a very noticeable flash pattern. Regardless, those tube should sound really nice. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. At that price? Hell, "one" at that price would have been good. It just goes to show that I can't be on EBAY all of the time. Great score. Love that Realistic/Radio Shack brand.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> this pic is not my tube but looks similar, maybe a shorter plate
> 
> View attachment 1557



Hey marty mine says 22J on the side,have some info on this? RCA 1950's[/QUOTE]

That is probably a production code. RCA EIA number is 274. If it's a 50's vintage tube, it should sound really good. Again, not knowing how the tube tests, you can only go by how it sounds to your ear. 12AX7's can be worn out and still work. This has been discussed in detail here before. In a perfect world, a 12AX7 would have a gain factor of 100/100. However, this isn't the case. Some tubes can be lopsided at say 92/106, or really even, but low, like 83/84. Some can be very high like 128/131. You take a tube with a high reading and 10 years later it might be 93/95. That reading is good enough to qualify it as an NOS tube. There is no way to know what you have unless the seller has a tube tester and it is accurate and he is honest.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I stole this, but I love it. Wanking off until you explode.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Are 7025s a direct replacement for 12AX7/ECC83s? any difference in gain?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I stole this, but I love it. Wanking off until you explode.


----------



## RiverRatt

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Are 7025s a direct replacement for 12AX7/ECC83s? any difference in gain?



A 7025 is a low noise replacement for a 12AX7. The gain can vary as much as any other 12AX7. A 5751 is a low noise and lower gain substitute.


----------



## MartyStrat54

At some point undetermined, 7025's and 12AX7A's were supposedly the same tube. It is a fact that at some point the technology improved and the 12AX7A was a better, quieter tube. However, some tube sellers state that the tube has to say, "12AX7A/7025" on the tube to be a 7025. 

The target gain on a 7025 is 100-100, but this varies as Ratt has stated. The 7025 was used by a lot of amp makers to be used in V1.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> At some point undetermined, 7025's and 12AX7A's were supposedly the same tube. It is a fact that at some point the technology improved and the 12AX7A was a better, quieter tube. However, some tube sellers state that the tube has to say, "12AX7A/7025" on the tube to be a 7025.
> 
> The target gain on a 7025 is 100-100, but this varies as Ratt has stated. The 7025 was used by a lot of amp makers to be used in V1.



I didn't know that. I have two tubes that are labeled 12AX7A. I will have to try them in V1.

Thanks Marty.


Edit---- I tried both of my RCA 12AX7A's in V1 and they could not bump out the GE. The GE tubes just kill. I'm hooked. I am going to have to some how buy a bunch of them because with them I have my sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I actually did accomplish something this weekend. Three Matsushitas for $14.95 shipped. Marty, I can't see the getter on these, so I don't know if they are exactly like yours or not, but at this price, I can't complain. I can't wait to give these a try!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "These were tested with my US Military TV-10 Tester that was recalibrated in July. Min for this type is 950 on each side of this dual triode type. One tube tested at 1500-1500, #2 tested at 1500-1750.#3 tested at 1500-1250 They had NO gas or shorts."



Hey, did you get these yet? I took a closer look and these might be slant tops. On the end tube on the right side, it looks like the getter flashing is angling upward. I hope they are the slant tops. They are basically a Mullard design with a slant getter. I would like for you to post how these tubes sound. Looking forward to it. I think you will smile for the price you paid.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Had a lot of bad tubes come in. That's always a pain having to return them. I did however get some more of those RCA/Mullards. These tubes always read above 27 on my tester. I got six more of these.

I won four lots of tubes, sixteen total of Philips Electrohome. If you see this brand (made in Canada by Philips) grab some. They have the same construction as an Amperex Bugle Boy. All 16 tubes tested perfectly. A testament to the quality of Philips. (Yeah, they were even in Canada.)

I also got in some ribbed plate Telefunkens and they were all perfect. Most had the yellow tips and were nicely balanced.

I am now going after some other Philips ECC83's by Valvo. Then on the horizon is some Raytheon Black Plates. I'm really low on these. If I can't win some soon, I will just have to quit selling them. They have turned into $45 tubes on EBAY. 

Well anyway, I have a good inventory of Philips. I'd say about 45 tubes or so.


----------



## RiverRatt

> Hey, did you get these yet? I took a closer look and these might be slant tops. On the end tube on the right side, it looks like the getter flashing is angling upward. I hope they are the slant tops. They are basically a Mullard design with a slant getter. I would like for you to post how these tubes sound. Looking forward to it. I think you will smile for the price you paid.



No, I was hoping for today, but the holiday is probably slowing things down. Maybe I'll get them Friday and have a weekend to play with them. I thought that middle tube looked like it might have a slant getter.

I'm starting to think that we are seeing the end of bargain NOS and used tubes. Unless the market tanks or gasoline goes way up again, I don't think these prices are going to come down much. It might be smart now to buy all these Japanese, Canadian and Yugoslavian tubes you can while they are relatively cheap. 

Weren't G.E. tubes produced in Canada, too?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes and so was RCA. I have a near perfect matched quad of Canadian RCA 6BQ5's.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Had a lot of bad tubes come in. That's always a pain having to return them. I did however get some more of those RCA/Mullards. These tubes always read above 27 on my tester. I got six more of these.
> 
> I won four lots of tubes, sixteen total of Philips Electrohome. If you see this brand (made in Canada by Philips) grab some. They have the same construction as an Amperex Bugle Boy. All 16 tubes tested perfectly. A testament to the quality of Philips. (Yeah, they were even in Canada.)
> 
> I also got in some ribbed plate Telefunkens and they were all perfect. Most had the yellow tips and were nicely balanced.
> 
> I am now going after some other Philips ECC83's by Valvo. Then on the horizon is some Raytheon Black Plates. I'm really low on these. If I can't win some soon, I will just have to quit selling them. They have turned into $45 tubes on EBAY.
> 
> Well anyway, I have a good inventory of Philips. I'd say about 45 tubes or so.


The Raytheon long black plate 12AX7 your favorite? there's so many out there its hard to decide unless you have all kinds in front of you, which some of us dont have.


----------



## REDDOGKNOWS

HI im new here just joined. glad i found this site though. anyway i had been looking for ecc83 ei yugoslavia tubes to replace in his tsl 100 head. anyway in the google search led me to this forum and got some good info from you guys, much appreciated by the way, anyway someone said through this forum that the ei yugoslavia were not made any more and was not happy with the current tubes they had, well i did a little diggin on the compuper and found this web site 
ECC83
and found the ei company and apparently they are still in business and they showed they picture of the ecc83 tubes and looks directly like the one that came out of the amplifier seems on top and all same markings. i am currently waiting a reply from them. feel free to go to the website and check it out and please let me know what you think about it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome aboard reddog!

That page hasn't been updated in several years. This is really strange. I was shopping these around not more than a month ago, and several online retailers had them in stock for under $20. Now they are all out of stock except for the places that want $40 per tube. Your best bet might be to watch eBay. There's a pair of NOS on there right now for under $20.

It's been rumored that the plant will resume production, but those rumors have been going around since 2006.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey RedDog! Welcome and thanks for stopping in. Ei has been out of business for a while. However, the ECC83 (12AX7) tubes are still available. Several of the smaller online tube stores have some and they are unlabeled. They also claim that they may not work in a guitar amp environment. 

However, ARS still has a large stock of the old Ei tubes. If you really want some, just give them a call.

ARS Electronics Since 1947 - Home Page - Electron Tubes - Amp Tubes - RF Heating Tubes - Broadcast Transmitter Tubes


----------



## ken361

https://www.watfordvalves.com/pdfs/tubetasting_12ax7_ecc83.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

I got the Matsushitas in today. They look more Amperex than Mullard. They have a square slant getter and look brand new. The getter flash is so heavy that you can barely see the getter on two of the tubes, and none of the flashes are slanted. I guess I haven't lost my knack for finding weird tubes. Here's an example of one of the three. I'll post a tone report sometime this weekend.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Am I seeing things? It looks as if the pinched top goes partially down the side of the tube and has a large ridge to it. 

I've never seen a getter flash in that pattern with an offset square getter. That's wild. Must have had a lot of barium in the getter.

Remember, the Mullard style only has holes on the outside of the plates. The Philips has holes on both sides of the plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

It does have a tall ridge, but it doesn't go past the little tail to the right. That's just some stray reflection. What do you mean about the holes? The plates only have the two little staple holes on each side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...


RiverRatt said:


> It does have a tall ridge, but it doesn't go past the little tail to the right. That's just some stray reflection. What do you mean about the holes? The plates only have the two little staple holes on each side.





MartyStrat54 said:


> These holes on the plates. The Mullard has holes on the outer plate and the Philips is on the inner and outer plates. I thought my Raytheon was made by Mullard, but then you found the Valvo and it had the same construction. The Japanese tubes with the slant top have Mullard style plates, but there are Japanese tubes with Philips style plates.


----------



## RiverRatt

The plates on my tubes don't have those center holes on either side, otherwise they look like yours.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well now that's odd. A Japanese tube was either made on Mullard equipment or Philips equipment. I don't know of any Japanese tube company that bought or made their own line equipment. Plus, these are Matsushita's, so you would think they would look like the tube on the left. Now I'm confused.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a better shot of the plate on one of the other tubes. Check out the getter flash on this one!! I tried all three in V1 and I wasn't as impressed as I'd hoped. They are similar to my Mullard but a good bit darker. The mids are great, but there's just not a lot of dynamics to them. HOWEVER, I think they may have unseated the Raytheon black plate in V2. With a Telefunken in V1, they make a great combination. I actually caught myself turning the presence up a couple of notches, they are that dark. I wasn't able to really crank them yet, so I'll probably have to go through all this again tomorrow. I have a feeling that they'll sound a lot better at volume.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, I would have loved to see that getter flash! It looks like a bomb went off inside of the tube. Well, I think you said your's had a square getter? The older RCA's with square getters are not in as big of demand as an O getter. They tend to be a little darker compared to their O getter version. However, I'm not a tube engineer. I don't know what effect, if any, that a getter has on the way a tube sounds.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not really sure how old these tubes are, but I found a thread HERE that gives a few clues - the ones I have look just like the one they are calling a 1958. Also, they are marked as 12AX7s, not 12AX7As, which might support the age estimate. The plates and getter are the same as a late '50s Heerlen Amperex. They've got inked codes on the bottom, but I don't have any reference for them. Looks like:
01
MH


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that blows my boat out of the water. I didn't think that the Japanese were making tubes in 1958. If they did, it was under close scrutiny. This is due to the pact that was signed after WWII. The Japanese were severely limited to what technologies they could produce.


----------



## wegman

Pardon me for breaking in here but I had a quick question.

Does it mean your tube is on the way out when it looks like this?




Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Pardon me for breaking in here but I had a quick question.
> 
> Does it mean your tube is on the way out when it looks like this?
> 
> View attachment 1615
> 
> 
> Thanks



***Tube 101***

No, not at all. That is getter flash. Usually it is a silver mirror color. What happens it that when they make a tube, they draw a vacuum on the tube. However, they can't get all of the air (gas) out of a tube. What is done after the tube is sealed is the getter is activated. It contains barium and this literally explodes on the glass of the tube. The barium is an active ingredient and it absorbs certain gases. In most cases, the getter works throughout the life of the tube. When a tube gets cracked, or air gets into the tube, it will turn milk white. If you see that, you have a bad tube. There is more to this, but this is the basics.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> ***Tube 101***
> 
> No, not at all. That is getter flash. Usually it is a silver mirror color. What happens it that when they make a tube, they draw a vacuum on the tube. However, they can't get all of the air (gas) out of a tube. What is done after the tube is sealed is the getter is activated. It contains barium and this literally explodes on the glass of the tube. The barium is an active ingredient and it absorbs certain gases. In most cases, the getter works throughout the life of the tube. When a tube gets cracked, or air gets into the tube, it will turn milk white. If you see that, you have a bad tube. There is more to this, but this is the basics.



As always thanks for the info Marty, I appreciate it.


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Pardon me for breaking in here but I had a quick question.



Please break in here anytime you feel like it. A real question always takes precedence over speculating as to the subtle tonal differences between a square or round getter or how many holes your plates have. I'm just trying to learn everything there is to know about Japanese tubes in 10 days or less.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Please break in here anytime you feel like it. A real question always takes precedence over speculating as to the subtle tonal differences between a square or round getter or how many holes your plates have. I'm just trying to learn everything there is to know about Japanese tubes in 10 days or less.



Thanks Ratt. 

I hate being ignorant and I must admit I am very ignorant on this topic, but I am learning. 

I just found a great article that is a huge help. Perhaps it has already been posted but I am posting it again. It is excellent.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/Tubeprimerandselection320-2.pdf


----------



## rockinr0ll

2 questions for you tube rollers!

I have noticed that at high volumes I haven't been getting break up but instead compression? What is up with that?

Anybody ever use the RCA tubes? I have been wanting to get some really nice smooth overdrive tones, are these NOS ones the holy grail?


----------



## wegman

rockinr0ll said:


> 2 questions for you tube rollers!
> 
> I have noticed that at high volumes I haven't been getting break up but instead compression? What is up with that?
> 
> Anybody ever use the RCA tubes? I have been wanting to get some really nice smooth overdrive tones, are these NOS ones the holy grail?



I have quite a few RCA tubes both the older and newer ones and a couple of black plates and I don't care for the tone of them as much as I do my GE's. Now there are a ton of factors to take into consideration but I find my amp like's GE's in V1 and V2, or they sound better to me then the either of the RCA. I do run a RCA black plate for the PI though.

I am not an expert here by a long shot either.


----------



## RiverRatt

rockinr0ll, I have a couple of RCAs that are sweet tubes, but I don't know if they are necessarily the best tube for my Marshall. They are very smooth with a nice, rounded tone, but I like a tube with a more pronounced midrange. I bought a smooth plate Telefunken off ebay a few months ago and I have yet to find anything I like as much. I have a 1966 Mullard that comes close, but the Tele is just a notch above. Great mids, smooth highs, tight bass - it does it all. I have a black plate Raytheon in V2 and it's a match made in heaven. Maybe solarburn will chime in - he's been doing a lot of rolling with Telefunkens lately. 

I'm not sure about the compression. You might have too hot of a tube in V1. I've had power tubes that would sound great up until about 7 and then they would sound really compressed with no dynamics at all, but that was in Fender combos with 6V6s.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well I think I got one of the Raytheon black plates arriving on Christmas day thanks to some not so subtle hinting to my wife  . However I noticed the same seller has these little babies for sale as well, are these the real deal? If so I will sanp one up as a gift to myself 

12AX7 TUNG-SOL NOS on eBay (end time 01-Dec-09 10:17:40 GMT)

Ive read on a few websites that the Tung-Sol's are very nice tubes, so if these are the real McCoy im not going to pass one up.

btw I play a DSL 401 and have JAN Phillips in V1 totally love the gain on it, and sounds so good clean as well for V2 and V3 i have a couple of NOS valves that have no name but sound great, and ive just got a JJ in the PI position as i could not tell any difference between ahving that in there and putting the balanced NOS Sylvania i have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Well I think I got one of the Raytheon black plates arriving on Christmas day thanks to some not so subtle hinting to my wife  . However I noticed the same seller has these little babies for sale as well, are these the real deal? If so I will sanp one up as a gift to myself
> 
> 12AX7 TUNG-SOL NOS on eBay (end time 01-Dec-09 10:17:40 GMT)
> 
> Ive read on a few websites that the Tung-Sol's are very nice tubes, so if these are the real McCoy im not going to pass one up.
> 
> btw I play a DSL 401 and have JAN Phillips in V1 totally love the gain on it, and sounds so good clean as well for V2 and V3 i have a couple of NOS valves that have no name but sound great, and ive just got a JJ in the PI position as i could not tell any difference between ahving that in there and putting the balanced NOS Sylvania i have.



Yeah it's a real one, but it seems to be pricey to me. You live there so you tell me? If that was a Mullard or a Telefunken, I could see that price. That's about $45 in US dollars isn't it? If you want it, go for it, but if it was me, I would get me an Amperex (Philips), Mullard or Telefunken for V1.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it's a real one, but it seems to be pricey to me. You live there so you tell me? If that was a Mullard or a Telefunken, I could see that price. That's about $45 in US dollars isn't it? If you want it, go for it, but if it was me, I would get me an Amperex (Philips), Mullard or Telefunken for V1.




Well to find a NOS mullard or Telefunken for that price would be a miracle, I have a used Mullard but im sure its past its best as the Jan Phillips whips it ass tonewise (for me anyways). Of course its pricey though, its Ebay ! I also have a Brimar which is nice, i know i will get a snap of my tubes just for giggles. brb


----------



## RiverRatt

You should be able to find a used Fisher-branded Telefunken easily for that price. As long as it tests strong, it should be a fine tube. 

Cool pics, btw. You've got some nice glass there. I've got a Raytheon yellow label 12AT7 that is one of the best sounding tubes I own.


----------



## wegman

Can anyone elaborate on GE tubes. 

They sound freaking awesome in my amp in V1 V2 and V3. Better then the RCA's I have/tried. My amp is a JCM 800 2210.

I hear you guys talking about Mullards and Telefunkens and I can't imagine my tone being better then what I have now. I mean I am sure it would be with those tubes but what I have now is pretty close to perfection of what I am going for, and the GE's are the ticket. They sound different from any other tube I have tried.

Anything unique about them or they just happen to be what I like.

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

I have some GE tubes that I thought were Sylvania, and I have some Sylvania tubes that I thought were GE. I'm never quite sure which is which. Marty sent me a low-gain GE 7025 that is one of my favorite V1 tubes. It's like the RCAs I was talking about earlier... it doesn't have that same midrange bark that the Mullards and Teles have. It's more of a Fender-y American tone. That's not to say that it's not a fine tube, it just doesn't get me as close to my ideal tone as the European tubes. If I still had a Fender combo, I would probably be all about GE and RCA. 

I need to start compiling a database of photos and descriptions of known GE and Sylvania tubes. I've already got an RCA database started. It really comes in handy when you're trying to figure out what you have, especially when the writing is gone. If you haven't been to tubemongerlib.com, check it out sometime. It's a pictoral database of NOS tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Pretty much have said what I can tell you. When you use crap tubes and you start using damn near anything NOS, it's going to sound so much better.

Now at one time, I ran an RCA 7025 in V1 and three short plate GE Five Star 12AX7's in my TSL122. (Short plates are better to run in combos over long plates. Less chance of microphonics.) I also tried GE short black plates. The Five Stars are probably GE's best tube, but they are harder to find. Same with the black plates.

There's nothing any more special about a GE than a Sylvania, or most other NOS USA tubes. When I look for RCA's, I prefer the older one's like mid 50's to early 60's. The same with GE, I think their older one's were built to tighter tolerances, because the equipment used to make the tubes wasn't worn out. By the late 60's, this equipment was pretty much shot, but they were still making tubes on this stuff. Look into a tube and see all of the small, precise parts. Think of how they would look and fit when they were made on a 1940 piece of equipment versus that same piece of equipment in 1970.

Granted, I'll still take a 1975 USA tube over CP stuff any day. However, if you are looking for tone and are a tube roller, you never stop with what you have. When I started posting on this thread, there were three or four of us posting and rolling tubes. Several of the guys got me to take a look at what I was running in my amps. The tubes were good and I had a theory, but my theory didn't work for everyone else. I took two of my amps and started rolling a bunch of tubes in them. The final result was I am running completely different tubes than what I did just seven months ago. I was heavy into using a 7025 in V1 and this actually is the best tube to run if you use a multi-fx pedal in the front end. In this case, the amp is set to a very clean sound. The fx unit provides all of the distortion. However, using the amp with just a few pedals and relying on the tone of the amp calls for a different approach. Here is were you are looking for a "flavor" tube for V1. I prefer the tone of an Amperex (or other Philips tube). A Telefunken is very nice in V1, especially when the amp is used with a Strat or a Tele. I love that sound.

The bottom line is USA tubes are better than CP, but European tubes are better than USA tubes. They were built to more exacting standards. They had better techniques for pulling vacuums on the tubes. They just sound better. I don't mean to rain on your parade. You are a great member and I have enjoyed seeing you go from crap tubes to the RCA's and the GE's. However, Joe-SolarBurn or Alan-Ratt, are not going to say that a GE beats a Telefunken. It ain't going to happen. That's why these tubes are $45 to $200 a piece. There's a reason for this. Real tube rollers know that a Telefunken is one delicious tube. And the same for an Amperex, Valvo, Electro-Home, or Miniwatt. These tubes are just better and there is a lot more than these. Most were made by or licensed by Philips. "If it's Philip's it's got to be good."

One of the things that the regulars have agreed on is something I experimented with six or seven months ago and that is we all run a black plate in V2. A black plate just seems to match up really well with the V1 tube.

Look, be happy you have the GE's and the fact you got them for free. If they put a smile on your face and bring enjoyment to your playing, then what more can you possibly want?


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> I have some GE tubes that I thought were Sylvania, and I have some Sylvania tubes that I thought were GE. I'm never quite sure which is which. Marty sent me a low-gain GE 7025 that is one of my favorite V1 tubes. It's like the RCAs I was talking about earlier... it doesn't have that same midrange bark that the Mullards and Teles have. It's more of a Fender-y American tone. That's not to say that it's not a fine tube, it just doesn't get me as close to my ideal tone as the European tubes. If I still had a Fender combo, I would probably be all about GE and RCA.
> 
> I need to start compiling a database of photos and descriptions of known GE and Sylvania tubes. I've already got an RCA database started. It really comes in handy when you're trying to figure out what you have, especially when the writing is gone. If you haven't been to tubemongerlib.com, check it out sometime. It's a pictoral database of NOS tubes.



Thanks for the info and that site. I will definetly check it out.

That is the issue I am facing. I am very happy with the GE tubes I am using and I am considering breaking down and actually buying more of them. I just want to make sure I am buying the right tubes. I think I know, but there is doubt.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Pretty much have said what I can tell you. When you use crap tubes and you start using damn near anything NOS, it's going to sound so much better.
> 
> Now at one time, I ran an RCA 7025 in V1 and three short plate GE Five Star 12AX7's in my TSL122. (Short plates are better to run in combos over long plates. Less chance of microphonics.) I also tried GE short black plates. The Five Stars are probably GE's best tube, but they are harder to find. Same with the black plates.
> 
> There's nothing any more special about a GE than a Sylvania, or most other NOS USA tubes. When I look for RCA's, I prefer the older one's like mid 50's to early 60's. The same with GE, I think their older one's were built to tighter tolerances, because the equipment used to make the tubes wasn't worn out. By the late 60's, this equipment was pretty much shot, but they were still making tubes on this stuff. Look into a tube and see all of the small, precise parts. Think of how they would look and fit when they were made on a 1940 piece of equipment versus that same piece of equipment in 1970.
> 
> Granted, I'll still take a 1975 USA tube over CP stuff any day. However, if you are looking for tone and are a tube roller, you never stop with what you have. When I started posting on this thread, there were three or four of us posting and rolling tubes. Several of the guys got me to take a look at what I was running in my amps. The tubes were good and I had a theory, but my theory didn't work for everyone else. I took two of my amps and started rolling a bunch of tubes in them. The final result was I am running completely different tubes than what I did just seven months ago. I was heavy into using a 7025 in V1 and this actually is the best tube to run if you use a multi-fx pedal in the front end. In this case, the amp is set to a very clean sound. The fx unit provides all of the distortion. However, using the amp with just a few pedals and relying on the tone of the amp calls for a different approach. Here is were you are looking for a "flavor" tube for V1. I prefer the tone of an Amperex (or other Philips tube). A Telefunken is very nice in V1, especially when the amp is used with a Strat or a Tele. I love that sound.
> 
> The bottom line is USA tubes are better than CP, but European tubes are better than USA tubes. They were built to more exacting standards. They had better techniques for pulling vacuums on the tubes. They just sound better. I don't mean to rain on your parade. You are a great member and I have enjoyed seeing you go from crap tubes to the RCA's and the GE's. However, Joe-SolarBurn or Alan-Ratt, are not going to say that a GE beats a Telefunken. It ain't going to happen. That's why these tubes are $45 to $200 a piece. There's a reason for this. Real tube rollers know that a Telefunken is one delicious tube. And the same for an Amperex, Valvo, Electro-Home, or Miniwatt. These tubes are just better and there is a lot more than these. Most were made by or licensed by Philips. "If it's Philip's it's got to be good."
> 
> One of the things that the regulars have agreed on is something I experimented with six or seven months ago and that is we all run a black plate in V2. A black plate just seems to match up really well with the V1 tube.
> 
> Look, be happy you have the GE's and the fact you got them for free. If they put a smile on your face and bring enjoyment to your playing, then what more can you possibly want?



No Marty I am not trying to say that GE's are better then Telefunkens or Mullards. I know that. My point is that I am amazed that a tube pulled out of an organ that is probably close to shot sounds so freaking good. I guess that is just how naive I am on the whole thing. I thought maybe there was something special or there was a special GE tube and maybe I got lucky on something. It turns out from your guys info there is nothing special about GE's. It's just another tube.

I can just imagaine what GOOD NOS tubes must sound like. I would probably wet myself.

As always thanks for the info Marty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> No Marty I am not trying to say that GE's are better then Telefunkens or Mullards. I know that. My point is that I am amazed that a tube pulled out of an organ that is probably close to shot sounds so freaking good. I guess that is just how naive I am on the whole thing. I thought maybe there was something special or there was a special GE tube and maybe I got lucky on something. It turns out from your guys info there is nothing special about GE's. It's just another tube.
> 
> I can just imagaine what GOOD NOS tubes must sound like. I would probably wet myself.



Well I wasn't trying to make you feel that way. Sometimes I can be hard to understand. My whole point was to let you know that when it comes to GE's, the Five Stars are the best, then the black plates and then the regular gray plates. I then explained about how I went from USA tubes to European tubes. However, I stated that I am happy that you are very satisfied with the GE tubes you are using. I wasn't trying to put you down. I had no intention of that.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I wasn't trying to make you feel that way. Sometimes I can be hard to understand. My whole point was to let you know that when it comes to GE's, the Five Stars are the best, then the black plates and then the regular gray plates. I then explained about how I went from USA tubes to European tubes. However, I stated that I am happy that you are very satisfied with the GE tubes you are using. I wasn't trying to put you down. I had no intention of that.



Didn't take it that way. No worries Marty.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wegman, if you'd like a budget-friendly European tube, you might want to seek out an Ei ECC83. They are a nice, gainy tube and were made on Telefunken equipment. They are a copy of the Telefunken smooth plate tube and while they don't sound exactly like a Tele, they are a good step in that direction. Best of all, you can usually find them for around $20 for NOS. Marty was talking about a supplier just the other day. If you can find a seller that screens them for microphonics, it might be worth paying a bit more for them as this has been the biggest complaint I've heard about Ei tubes.

If I were in your position, I don't think I would try to buy up a lot of GE tubes, or any one brand of tube for that matter. I think you'd be a lot more happy in the end if you try to get as many different brands as you can. That's where tube rolling really gets fun - mixing and matching. If you're going to start dealing tubes, then go for quantity.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ARS is the supplier that still has Ei tubes for sale. If interested, here is the link.

ARS Electronics Since 1947 - Home Page - Electron Tubes - Amp Tubes - RF Heating Tubes - Broadcast Transmitter Tubes


----------



## solarburn

Hey guyz! Good to see you in here talk'n bout tubez.

Well I tried for shits and giggles 2 Telefunkens one in V1 and the other in V2. It sounded like I thought it would. Too much smoothness hehe. I just wanted to see.

Then I traded my BP in V2 out for a RFT which is another favorite of mine. It sounded real good but I loss some of that BP chewiness I love so much. So the BP still is number 1 for me in that slot. The Tele in V1 is still ruling too. The reason is, besides the great tone is that single notes or lead playing is so up front and there. It has this round, thick tone and responsive feel to it. When I compare it to my RFT in the same slot the RFT is a bit thinner at lead playing.

These tubes are all good though as far as using them. I have my favorites but the other ones I have can go in the line up and still sound awesome. Here is what I like:

1.Raytheon BP
2.Telefunken
3. RFT
4.RCA 12AX7A- someth'n about this tube I really like. It sounds and feels good.
5. Mullard

Then the GE's, 7025's, Magnavox.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Wegman, if you'd like a budget-friendly European tube, you might want to seek out an Ei ECC83. They are a nice, gainy tube and were made on Telefunken equipment. They are a copy of the Telefunken smooth plate tube and while they don't sound exactly like a Tele, they are a good step in that direction. Best of all, you can usually find them for around $20 for NOS. Marty was talking about a supplier just the other day. If you can find a seller that screens them for microphonics, it might be worth paying a bit more for them as this has been the biggest complaint I've heard about Ei tubes.
> 
> If I were in your position, I don't think I would try to buy up a lot of GE tubes, or any one brand of tube for that matter. I think you'd be a lot more happy in the end if you try to get as many different brands as you can. That's where tube rolling really gets fun - mixing and matching. If you're going to start dealing tubes, then go for quantity.



Thanks for the info. I will look into them.

I can't believe how expensive these tube are. I mean I love my tone but the cash outlay for me is brutal.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

wegman said:


> Thanks for the info. I will look into them.
> 
> I can't believe how expensive these tube are. I mean I love my tone but the cash outlay for me is brutal.



The Ei's are very reasonable..just picked up 3 of them on ebay for $30 shipped.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Do you guys know any place with a tube comparison test in audio format? I remember someone doing a test awhile back and I forgot the link... Thanks..

Edit: found it


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Do you guys know any place with a tube comparison test in audio format? I remember someone doing a test awhile back and I forgot the link... Thanks..
> 
> Edit: found it



If it pertains to different preamp tubes, put the link here please.


----------



## rockinr0ll

SoundClick artist: Preamp Valve Test - page with MP3 music downloads

This is the link I was looking for. Done by PaoloJM.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Thanks for the info guys, ive found some Fisher tubes and some Valvo tubes, what he concencus on the Valvo ones? I can get a couple for abput £30 which seems like better value than the Tung-Sol if they are as well regarded.

Sod it i bought the valvos, £32 for a pair delivered.

god damn this is becoming an addiction!

Ok ive had a day off work and decided to run through my tubes gain, only to discover what I suspected all along, my mullard has passed on to the great gig in the sky  , but the good news is is that i put the Brimar in and i love it, still really like the Jan Phillips, but fancied the Brimar more. The Raytheon 12at7 sounds really nice too, and i dont really notice to much of a drop in gain from the Brimar or Phillips maybe a little less overall volume on the clean channel, so thats another one i have in reserve to play with later. Can't wait for the Valvos to come to give them a whirl, btw i bought those Phillips El84s i mentioned in the power tube thread and they sound great too, the JJ's/Marshalls i had in there were stock from the Marshall factory and from 2004 so must have been getting a little tired, things have really pepped up with the new power tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

If the Valvos are made in Hamburg, they are right up there with the Telefunken and Amperex valves. Sounds like you got a good price on them, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here, here. That's right, the Valvo's are right up there. They are a Philips made tube and sound very much like an Amperex. Let us know if they have a slant top getter, as a lot of Valvo's were made this way. I'd take the Valvo's over the Tung-Sol's any day.


----------



## wegman

Well Marty do I have to say you were right again? I think I do. I swapped out a GE for a black plate in V2 and after a few minutes I was totally digging the tone. Much better articulation as well.

You speak, I listen.

Actually thanks to all of you guys for all the help. It is much appreciated.

Some how I have to get a cash outlay for some special tubes past accounting. (Wifee)

Party on.


----------



## rockinr0ll

V1 V2 V3 is from left to right when you open the back of the amp correct? I going to finally get these Groove Tubes out of here...


----------



## Landshark

rockinr0ll said:


> V1 V2 V3 is from left to right when you open the back of the amp correct? I going to finally get these Groove Tubes out of here...



Hallelujah!


----------



## MartyStrat54

PARTY ON THE PATIO!!!


----------



## wegman

Does the tube you have in the reverb position (V4 in my amp) have any bearing on the tone if you don't use any reverb? 

It doesn't seem like it to me but just wondering.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Does the tube you have in the reverb position (V4 in my amp) have any bearing on the tone if you don't use any reverb?
> 
> It doesn't seem like it to me but just wondering.



No. In this instance the 12AX7 is being used as a driver, not as an amplifier. You could put a 12AT7 in that slot and probably not notice any difference.


----------



## RiverRatt

Remember those Ice Cube sustain couplers they used to sell for Fender reverb amps in the 70's? I wonder if you could do something like that with a Marshall that uses a reverb driver tube? Seems like we gutted one in the shop ages ago and it was just a 270k resistor between the RCA in & out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, check out these 12BZ7s. I thought that RCA pretty much made all the tall-bottle twin triode tubes, but I found what appears to be a GE blackplate - it's got an orange RCA logo just like the one on the left, but the GE stencil on the tube name. I wouldn't think there was ever enough demand for a 12BZ7 for two companies to be making them, so the black plate may just be an earlier RCA from a batch they ran for GE, maybe? The plates are similar, but the edges are different.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the one on the left is a GE. It may have been labeled as an RCA, but it is still a GE. Being a black plate, I would say 1964 or earlier.


----------



## wegman

Is there any market for 12AU7's / 12AU7A's?

I left like 20 of them in that organ that I could go back and grab.

I know I saw some Raytheon's, GE's, RCA's and some were black plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are worth about 25 cents a piece wholesale and a couple of bucks for a used 12AU7. Check EBAY. A lot of tube sellers don't even list them anymore.


----------



## rockinr0ll

So I should be getting 3 JJ ECC83S matching with balanced triodes for PI. I decided to pay the extra just because I had good luck last time I went with the testing... 

Anyone ever try these? I hope they sound better than the Sovtek 12AX7WA-WB and 12AX7WXT+. 

It will be an interesting test even though I heard they can be a little dark.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are worth about 25 cents a piece wholesale and a couple of bucks for a used 12AU7. Check EBAY. A lot of tube sellers don't even list them anymore.



That's what I figured and why I left them.

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

There are some cool low-watt amp projects that use 12AU7s as power tubes. I've always wanted to build one, but I don't know if I can justify sinking $200 worth of parts into a 1 watt amp.


----------



## solarburn

rockinr0ll said:


> So I should be getting 3 JJ ECC83S matching with balanced triodes for PI. I decided to pay the extra just because I had good luck last time I went with the testing...
> 
> Anyone ever try these? I hope they sound better than the Sovtek 12AX7WA-WB and 12AX7WXT+.
> 
> It will be an interesting test even though I heard they can be a little dark.



I don't like them in either of my amps but that's exactly what I do with tubes. I try them out and see. Nothing like a real world test for the truest impact.

Bet its fine as a PI.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe there is a new mini amp that uses a 12AX7 as the gain tube and two 12AU7's as push-pull power tubes. Of course, like the Blackstar 5, there is a lot of solid state going on in the amp as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> That's what I figured and why I left them.
> 
> Thanks



Yeah, but another thing I say is never leave an NOS tube to go to waste. I would pull them and sit on them. You never know, the market could change.


----------



## solarburn

Think it was 2 AT7's as the power tubes...

2 watts utilizing 2-12AT7's in a push-pull configuration.
3- 12AX7's
1-5U4


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just had left the boobs thread...forgive me. Yes, 12AT7's sound more like it.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Check out this tube test I found over at Ultimate Guitar:

UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com - Tube tests with 5 different 12ax7 (audio clips)


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Check out this tube test I found over at Ultimate Guitar:
> 
> UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com - Tube tests with 5 different 12ax7 (audio clips)



Okay, so I go listen to this. What's with the 3 second sound bites? How do you compare the sounds when in 15 seconds, its all over? He then plays out to end the recording...what tube was he using?

This guy wouldn't know a Telefunken from a Sovtek. And the forum he sponsored it on were a bunch of guys who have never heard that much NOS, or else they would "know" the difference. 

Now I will say that the guy had a sweet crunch, but how much of that was his tubes? It's not even an all tube amp. When I do a tube test, I generally start with the EQ at midpoint. I remove any scooping and turn the Presence control off. I want the true sound of the tube. Back in my studio in Phoenix, I could get a chainsaw to sound like a Les Paul.

Now I'm not knocking you R'nR. You did good. You posted something that needs to be presented here. However, you have no control over how this guy did his tube test. It all boils down to the 3 second sound bites. All I could tell was that the JJ's were a little quieter and a little darker. The other tubes pretty much sounded the same.

What's amusing is that everyone had a different tube that they thought sounded best. There was no standout winner.


----------



## thrawn86

This sounds like a job for MartyMan. You oughta post up something like that for us. Your point of reference would be invaluable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there are two things I need to get. A digital mixer/recorder and a digital video camera. I really need to step up into the digital world.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SUPER FLASHBACK FROM 5-14-2009-Page 10



MartyStrat54 said:


> No you're not. I'm of that small percentage of players who crave NOS tubes. Like a story about Marshall's heritage, I feel the same way about a 1962 GE Short Plate as someone would cherish a Plexi. There are some who would say, "He spent $5000 for an all original Plexi. He could have bought himself a new Marshall like a VM or a 410." The same holds true for the need for old tubes. I could by the current stuff, but to me, NOS adds character to your amp.
> 
> As far a someone in a crowd recognizing my tone over anyone else's? Ain't gonna happen, because not only can the crowd not sense a players tone, they cannot sense talent. I've seen the worst guitar players get the biggest applause. So that in itself makes the tone issue a moot point.
> 
> I told Puffer Fish that as long as I can buy a 12AX7 NOS for $25, that is what I will be running in my amps. From a technical standpoint, NOS tubes can handle a lot more plate voltage. Some of the current preamp tubes are designed right at the voltage operating point. This gives no ground for error. If you get a slight voltage surge, damage could result. Also, I still hold that the quality of materials and coatings used are better than what they are using today. Back when tubes ruled, it was all about making a tube that was better than the competition...spare no costs. Nowadays, it's all about the cost per unit and the bottom line. This formula usually means cheap, cheap, cheap. I mean it is bad when the Tube Store advertises that Sovtek's are no good for combos. To me, that is like saying cheap tube, do not buy. However, what is worse is that one of my 602's came from the factory with two Sovtek WA's in it (V3 and V4) and they are horrible!
> 
> I've never met an NOS tube I didn't like. (He-He, that's my Will Rogers imitation.)
> 
> There will come a day when NOS will no longer be available. By then, I will be near retirement and I probably will have sold all my gear off. In 2020 how much do you think an RCA 12AX7 will bring?
> 
> Some people like to roll tubes and the whole point is to get the best tone with the tubes available. Maybe you have six. Maybe you have sixty. The point is, it's harmless fun. You stick one in and maybe it puts a smile on your face when you palm mute a broken A chord and you can tell the difference over the tube you had pulled out. A while back, I was happy with the NOS tubes in my amp. But because of this forum, I realized that my amps could sound even better. It doesn't matter if anyone else can tell it, it only matters to me. Two tubes changed my whole perception about how my amps could (and should) sound. Now I've replaced tubes in my other amps as well, making sure I have a high gainer in V2 and an 7025 in V1. That is what really makes my TSL's come alive with a super clean channel and crunch-a-bunch.
> 
> Now for a while I got a little nuts with tube rolling and was spending too much time on it, but that was because I had a lot of experimenting to do. Now that I've found the formula, I can drop it a notch or two. What I have learned is that NOS tubes have character. (Did I say that already?)
> 
> Marty



FLASH FORWARD

Obviously the tube rolling hadn't ended...it had just began. I was still thinking that to have an acceptable clean channel, you had to go with a 7025. Hey, we all know that a 7025 is a good tube...for HiFi. Yes, it's a quiet tube and it does enhance the clean channel, but a Telefunken, Mullard or Philips in the V1 slot is the ticket. Isn't it? Yeah, I was pushing that 7025 for quite a while. (Fender loved them in their amps, hence the "Fender Clean" tone.) 

It was when I started putting Black Plates in V1 that I said to myself, "That sounds smokin' good." Then I put a 1959 RCA in V1 and it had a great sound. I then put a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in there and I thought 

Of course, in the good old days, I had a 7025 in V1 of my TSL122 and then three short plate GE's in the other slots. I thought this sounded really good. Now I have a Philips Electrohome (made like a Bugle Boy) in V1 and a BP in V2 and two GE short plates. Holy Moly, what a difference.

Hey Joe, what was in that thread you responded to here recently? Something about how two tubes can make a lot of difference in how your amp sounds? Yessir. We all know that here to be fact and if you read the above, you will see that I made that statement a long time ago.

So now all of my amps have made the big change from a 7025 in V1. It's sort of sad, because I did think it was a good formula. However, the 7025 doesn't add anything as it is neutral sounding. Again, perfect for HiFi or the V1 in a Fender amp. We all have are favorite flavor V1's. Mine of course is Philips (and why not go with the biggest...more choices). I'm especially fond of those Holland tubes, but the Canadian version sounds right on (Electrohome). Next would be a Telefunken. I'm with Joe and will go against the grain and say that the ribbed plate just has a little more to offer than the smooth plate. The smooth plate would probably be the better HiFi tube. Then I would have to go to my Mullards. As you can see, my top three are now European tubes. Just six months ago, I was using USA tubes in my amps.

It's all about getting off your duff and making time to play, "Roll, roll, roll your tubes." There is nothing wrong with American tubes. If that is what you are running, consider yourself to be fortunate enough to have them. You could be running Sovteks. However, if you have the tube rolling fever, you will find yourself always pulling V1 out like a chess piece and trying something different.

I have said this before, if it hadn't been for the regulars on this thread, I would have never rolled. I just put in what I thought were good tubes and left it at that. No, the regulars on this forum got me to roll tubes and once I started, I couldn't stop and when you have like 400 tubes, you can do a lot of rolling.

Now I am focused on finding some of the rare 12AX7's that I have mentioned in this thread. Some were only made by NEC during the brief period when the Japanese were making tubes for US companies. However, some of these tubes are more suited to Hi Fi use, because they are basically a superior 7025. However, there are Japanese tubes that were made on Mullard and Philips equipment. These are the one's I have interest in just to see how they stack up and sound.

I also want to get some Miniwatt and some more Valvo's. These are Philips designed tubes and they are very high quality and great for guitar amps.

So in closing on this SUPER FLASHBACK, I stated that I had found the formula, but in reality I didn't. I couldn't get everyone to like what I liked. The truth is, I realized that I didn't like it myself. So this was not an end to tube rolling. We all started rolling more than ever and it became evident that the Black Plate is a great V2 tube, but a European tube in V1 is the real deal.

Now if I can just find a Hi Fi amp to stick all of these 7025's in.

:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:

THANKS TO JOSH FOR STARTING THIS THREAD. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO DROP IN ANYTIME.


----------



## RiverRatt

It is interesting how far we've come since this thread started. I was just going through my old tubes last night, trying to remember what I had before this madness started. I had a couple of GE tubes, a weak Sylvania, an even weaker RCA, and the two RCA side-getters. Now I have much more of an understanding as to what tube combinations will give you a good tone, and even what a good tone IS. Thanks to Josh for getting this started, thanks to Joe for lighting a fire under us all, and thanks to Marty for everything else. It's been a lot of fun so far, and there's still a lot of glass out there that I haven't tried yet!


----------



## solarburn

I think alot of us changed our minds the more we rolled. When we got ahold of the BP's RCA's, Telefunken, Amperex, RFT's and moved therm around in V1 & V2 we found how to get the best of each and what slot they needed to be in for that to happen. I say we learned alot here just by doing it. We've got a fair amount of leg work done and now is the time to be viewing this thread and taking advantage of what's been found.

The cool thing now is if there is a particular tube I want to try all I have to do is pop it in V1 and I get the most of that tubes personality coming through. So I can take that and decide quickly if I want it and where I want it. There is a methodology here and its less time consuming than when we first started. Its easier because we know our amps better than we ever did in the first place and what tubes can and can't do. 

Looking back though I rolled for hours and days in a row at times. Doing that I learned quite a bit about my amp. What tubes warm things up, add bite, add sustain and dynamics. What adds buzzy fizzy hairy gain and what tubes just plain dull it up. Learned what a microphonic tube sounds like or when a tube has static that sometimes all that it needs is the legs cleaned off with some contact cleaner. I also learned that certain vendor's back their shit up. They get my business.

NOS rules for quality gain and dynamics IME. Musical feedback and rich overtones throughout. Playing the blues or rock that is full of midgain stuff then rolling guitar volume off for a clean tone that doesn't die as soon as you pick it from lack of sustain is what I enjoy so much about a good tube or tubes. Its where the tone of the fingers shine. Its Rocktacular!

Now I just wish I could play...

I've had too much coffee.:eek2:


----------



## el zilcho

This thread is great. I'm new here but I managed to read the whole thing and learned a lot.

One thing I don't understand is why you guys don't experiment more with v3 and v4? If I pop a Mullard cv4024 in V4 I get a HUGE difference in tone, but the change varies differently depending on the presence and master volume settings.


----------



## solarburn

el zilcho said:


> This thread is great. I'm new here but I managed to read the whole thing and learned a lot.
> 
> One thing I don't understand is why you guys don't experiment more with v3 and v4? If I pop a Mullard cv4024 in V4 I get a HUGE difference in tone, but the change varies differently depending on the presence and master volume settings.



Ahh another AT7 lover hehe. Its a good thing in certain spots, like your PI slot. It will drive your power tubes less but handle more current than a 12AX7 at volume. I like it too. I even like it in V1 but don't tell anybody. Shoosh!

I can hear differences more in the PI slot than V3 if we are talking similar preamp sections. V3 doesn't seem to matter one way or the other in my amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

el zilcho said:


> This thread is great. I'm new here but I managed to read the whole thing and learned a lot.
> 
> One thing I don't understand is why you guys don't experiment more with v3 and v4? If I pop a Mullard cv4024 in V4 I get a HUGE difference in tone, but the change varies differently depending on the presence and master volume settings.



Welcome to our little piece of tube heaven. To answer your question, we did do a lot of rolling in V3 and V4. It is in the prior pages of this thread. What happened is that we did all sorts of stuff like taking a really high gain 12AX7 and putting it in V3 and V4. Then we took low gain 12AX7 and did the same thing. In a nutshell, high or low gain tubes in V3 were not that noticeable. Sure, you are going to hear some change, but it's not drastic. However, using 12AT7's or 5751's in V4 compared to a 12AX7 did make a difference. As I explained it, it created a larger window for the tone to go through. Also, if you didn't know the Presence control circuit is tied into V4 (Phase Inverter).

So after doing all of this stuff, we all pretty much settled on our V3 and V4 tubes. This made rolling tubes in V1 and V2 a snap. 

I was going to post a comment to SolarBurn's response, but what you have asked in right down the alley about what I wanted to tell Joe.

Yes, we rolled a lot of tubes and we rolled all four positions and we all shared our experiences. Joe (SolarBurn) was more into using lower gain tubes than I was. However, he got me to try them and they just weren't for me. However, I know quite a few people that run a 12AT7 in V1 or a 5751. In fact one guy I know has a DSL100 and he uses two black plate 5751's in V1 and V2. Getting back to what Joe said, all of this tube rolling created a platform that as individuals, we could work from. Until we had V3 and V4 worked out, it took a lot of time to figure out what tube sounded best in what slot. Think of it this way. What we thought was the least important was actually the most important. Getting V3 and V4 squared away changed everything.

So that is why you don't hear us talking about V3 and V4 that much. We used to, but we got those slots hammered out and now it is just the joy of trying different tubes in V1 and V2.

Once again, welcome to the thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thank you Alan and Joe for your responses. I look forward to sharing even more tube info with you in the future.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Also, if you didn't know the Presence control circuit is tied into V4 (Phase Inverter).



I did not know this. So now I have to go back and try all my V4 tubes again and see how they affect the presence control.


----------



## el zilcho

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ahh another AT7 lover hehe. Its a good thing in certain spots, like your PI slot. It will drive your power tubes less but handle more current than a 12AX7 at volume. I like it too. I even like it in V1 but don't tell anybody. Shoosh!
> 
> I can hear differences more in the PI slot than V3 if we are talking similar preamp sections. V3 doesn't seem to matter one way or the other in my amp.



For a long time, I used the Mullard 12at7 in v1 and a JAN phillips 5751 in v2. It helped to kill the fizz I didn't like on the lead channel of my DSL. More recently, I removed the bright cap from the lead channel's gain knob and now I've gotten back to using 12ax7s for v1 and v2.

But yeah, that 12at7 is kind of an oddball in how it affects tone in the PI. I don't want to say it thins it out, but it's like a bunch of the low mids are gone compared to using a 12ax7. Almost sounds like phase cancellation. I like the dynamics with the 12at7, but not so much the tone. Actually I do like it at low volumes, it kind of makes the amp sound like it's cranked.

With 12ax7s in the PI, I can only hear small differences between tubes if I'm playing at low volumes (more difference if the presence is up, but I usually barely use it). I hear more difference at higher volumes but it's hard to stay subjective for long when your ears are being pummeled. I need an iso-booth.

Right now I'm using a jan 5751 in v4. It seems like a good spot for a nice bulletproof tube, and I get a little of the dynamics that I like from the 12at7 but with a tone I still like.


> Welcome to our little piece of tube heaven. To answer your question, we did do a lot of rolling in V3 and V4. It is in the prior pages of this thread. What happened is that we did all sorts of stuff like taking a really high gain 12AX7 and putting it in V3 and V4. Then we took low gain 12AX7 and did the same thing. In a nutshell, high or low gain tubes in V3 were not that noticeable. Sure, you are going to hear some change, but it's not drastic. However, using 12AT7's or 5751's in V4 compared to a 12AX7 did make a difference. As I explained it, it created a larger window for the tone to go through. Also, if you didn't know the Presence control circuit is tied into V4 (Phase Inverter).
> 
> So after doing all of this stuff, we all pretty much settled on our V3 and V4 tubes. This made rolling tubes in V1 and V2 a snap.
> 
> I was going to post a comment to SolarBurn's response, but what you have asked in right down the alley about what I wanted to tell Joe.
> 
> Yes, we rolled a lot of tubes and we rolled all four positions and we all shared our experiences. Joe (SolarBurn) was more into using lower gain tubes than I was. However, he got me to try them and they just weren't for me. However, I know quite a few people that run a 12AT7 in V1 or a 5751. In fact one guy I know has a DSL100 and he uses two black plate 5751's in V1 and V2. Getting back to what Joe said, all of this tube rolling created a platform that as individuals, we could work from. Until we had V3 and V4 worked out, it took a lot of time to figure out what tube sounded best in what slot. Think of it this way. What we thought was the least important was actually the most important. Getting V3 and V4 squared away changed everything.
> 
> So that is why you don't hear us talking about V3 and V4 that much. We used to, but we got those slots hammered out and now it is just the joy of trying different tubes in V1 and V2.
> 
> Once again, welcome to the thread.


Thank you for the welcome.

That all makes sense. I can't for the life of me remember what you guys liked for v3 and v4. GEs? Or just whatever's available NOS and cheap?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well we have all posted this before, but we can do it again. I have so many amps, so I'll just pick a couple.

2006 TSL602

V1-1959 Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7
V2-1962 Raytheon Black Plate (High Gain) 12AX7
V3-1961 Sylvania Gray Plate 12AX7
V4-1961 Sylvania Gray Plate 12AX7

Power
V5 and V6-xf2 Mullard EL-34's

2007 TSL100

V1-1963 Telefunken ECC83
V2-1966 Amperex 7025 (High Gain)
V3-1960 GE Short Black Plate 12AX7
V4-1964 Sylvania Gray Plate 12AX7

Power
V5, V6, V7 and V8-RFT EL34's

Actually, you can get away with using certain CP tubes in V3 and V4. Right now the best bargain in a 12AX7 is the Electro-Harmonix 12AX7. If I had to use them, I would, but I sell tubes and that's why I use all NOS. Also, there was a statement going around for some time and that was you should not use Tung-Sol's in V3. I did some checking and all of this happened back in 2005. I think it's safe to lift the ban. BTW, EH advertises their 12AX7 to work well in any slot. Well to me, that means V3 and V4.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ive been on a mission for the last few days and have come up trumps. Ive got 1xBrimar 12ax7 NOS on its way, as well as 2xRFT 12ax7's that test as good as new and last but not least those 2xValvos which also test as good as new. I had no idea that there were so many great valves around on ebay at much better prices than are availabler from many actual valve sellers online.

I missed out on a phillips/miniwat that was pulled from a radio but not tested, it went for much more than i was willing to pay given its uncertainty, as ever people are still paying silly money for things on ebay.


----------



## solarburn

el zilcho said:


> For a long time, I used the Mullard 12at7 in v1 and a JAN phillips 5751 in v2. It helped to kill the fizz I didn't like on the lead channel of my DSL. More recently, I removed the bright cap from the lead channel's gain knob and now I've gotten back to using 12ax7s for v1 and v2.
> 
> But yeah, that 12at7 is kind of an oddball in how it affects tone in the PI. I don't want to say it thins it out, but it's like a bunch of the low mids are gone compared to using a 12ax7. Almost sounds like phase cancellation. I like the dynamics with the 12at7, but not so much the tone. Actually I do like it at low volumes, it kind of makes the amp sound like it's cranked.
> 
> With 12ax7s in the PI, I can only hear small differences between tubes if I'm playing at low volumes (more difference if the presence is up, but I usually barely use it). I hear more difference at higher volumes but it's hard to stay subjective for long when your ears are being pummeled. I need an iso-booth.
> 
> Right now I'm using a jan 5751 in v4. It seems like a good spot for a nice bulletproof tube, and I get a little of the dynamics that I like from the 12at7 but with a tone I still like.
> 
> Thank you for the welcome.
> 
> That all makes sense. I can't for the life of me remember what you guys liked for v3 and v4. GEs? Or just whatever's available NOS and cheap?



I too like the dynamics of having the AT7 in V1. It would clear the gain up. At low volume that was ok but the higher the volume went the less I liked it. I also boost often so that AT7 would be getting a lil' extra goose when I used Lead 1 or the crunch channel. Still at volume is where is suffers but there were some things I liked that it did. I liked soloing with it and how it felt and the texture of the tone. It was Iommi-ish to me at times. I still throw it in there every now and again.

Its hard work being pummeled at volume while listening closely to how a tube is effecting the overall tone of the amp hehe.

I've got a RFT in the PI right now. Its bold, fat and kicks ass the more volume given. I think its helping manage some toppiness inherent in the amp. In fact my whole tube array is geared for warm, fat but articulate tone. I want it as dynamic and organic as I can get it without it being flubby loose or razor tight. I want the notes to bloom and sing when I solo. Probably asking too much of this amp but at the same time I do accept its limitations. Love the amp regardless. Its come along ways.

I've tried the following CP 12AX7's in that slot:
Tung Sol-It was ok. Not a standout for me.
Mullard RI-Again ok but this one to me is a milder AX7
LPS-I like this tube but only as a PI. Its aggressive and has bite.
AC5 Chinese-It was ok. 

Any of those will do. I've done it with other NOS too but The PI slot is a position I don't really want to waste using my NOS on unless I hear something really noticeable, like my RFT. I have a few of them. Something to consider if the NOS stash is small and monies tight. Do I really need to burn these up in V3 or the PI?


----------



## solarburn

> More recently, I removed the bright cap from the lead channel's gain knob and now I've gotten back to using 12ax7s for v1 and v2./QUOTE]





> el zilcho how much difference was there after the mod in the red channel? Did it tame that over brightness well and did it effect any other frequencies negatively? It didn't swing it over to too much lowend or hurt articulation at all?
> 
> I'm interested in the mod.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Ive been on a mission for the last few days and have come up trumps. Ive got 1xBrimar 12ax7 NOS on its way, as well as 2xRFT 12ax7's that test as good as new and last but not least those 2xValvos which also test as good as new. I had no idea that there were so many great valves around on ebay at much better prices than are availabler from many actual valve sellers online.
> 
> I missed out on a phillips/miniwat that was pulled from a radio but not tested, it went for much more than i was willing to pay given its uncertainty, as ever people are still paying silly money for things on ebay.



Good! You got the fever. Yes there are a lot of tubes out there, don't you agree? It's amazing that most of them are at least 40 years old. You did well with the Brimar, RFT's and the Valvos. I'm especially interested in the Valvo's. Did you notice if they are slant top getters? If so, if you can put up some pictures, I would love to see them. I'm trying to see who all made slant tops over in Europe.

Enjoy your new little "toobs."


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought the bright cap was either C12 or C17, depending on the board revision. I tried clipping that cap and ended up soldering it back after a few months. Maybe I did the wrong cap, but I didn't notice much of a difference.

I've been working those Matsushita 12AX7s into the rotation lately, and they are starting to grow on me. I really like them in V1 using the Classic channel clean mode. They have more hair than the Tele smooth plate I've been using. I think if my Mullard was a little stronger, they would sound pretty close. Not bad at all for $5 a tube! I'm really wanting to try an Amperex, Valvo and Brimar, and maybe pick up a ribbed-plate Tele to compare to the smooth plate, but Christmas is kicking my ass this year. The older kids get, the more expensive they get!!!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I thought the bright cap was either C12 or C17, depending on the board revision. I tried clipping that cap and ended up soldering it back after a few months. Maybe I did the wrong cap, but I didn't notice much of a difference.
> 
> I've been working those Matsushita 12AX7s into the rotation lately, and they are starting to grow on me. I really like them in V1 using the Classic channel clean mode. They have more hair than the Tele smooth plate I've been using. I think if my Mullard was a little stronger, they would sound pretty close. Not bad at all for $5 a tube! I'm really wanting to try an Amperex, Valvo and Brimar, and maybe pick up a ribbed-plate Tele to compare to the smooth plate, but Christmas is kicking my ass this year. The older kids get, the more expensive they get!!!



For realz! I just sent you a pm and then read this. I have a ribbed for her pleasure Tele if you want to demo it. I would like to try a Brimar 12AX7 too. Expensive NOS tube though. I've tried Amperex(good tube)but not the Valvo either. Still really digg'n what I have in mine though so I'm not feeling a pull to get anything like right now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've tried Amperex(good tube)



I didn't think you ever tried one. I never heard you make any remarks about it. Was it a V1 or V2 tube? Good tube, but not your favorite. You prefer the Tele over it, right? Do you own an Amperex, or should I say Philips tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here I am buying a lot more tubes and with that comes a lot more bad tubes. In this week alone, my tube tester has saved me over $425. I had a real sweet pair of NOS 6CA7's and they tested at 52 and 54. That sucked, especially since I paid almost $175 for the pair. Then I had a batch of Mullards and one was dead and another one had a bad short in it. Then another batch of Mullards and two out of eight no good.

On the plus side, I did score some more Black Plate Raytheon's and I found a guy in Canada that has a whole bunch of Philips tubes. They are called Electrohome and they sound as good as any other Philips tube. A good bargain as well. I bought 24 of those. I couldn't pass them up.

I watched EBAY today. A guy had two sets of two Colbalt Blue Tesla EL34 tubes. Not much activity and I thought for a while, "Hell, I'll buy them." An hour before the auction ended one set was at $168 and the other was at $242. I had to laugh, because although these are real Tesla's, they were made near the end, right before the company folded. I'm sure they are good EL34's, but not that good. You can get a pair of xf3's for that.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140363558521&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The Tele craze on the thread created more sales to other individuals. Now I'm getting low on Tele's. I am answering many, many PM's every day now. As long as I can keep the tubes coming in, then I'll have the tubes to send out.


----------



## el zilcho

solarburnDSL50 said:


> More recently, I removed the bright cap from the lead channel's gain knob and now I've gotten back to using 12ax7s for v1 and v2./QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> el zilcho how much difference was there after the mod in the red channel? Did it tame that over brightness well and did it effect any other frequencies negatively? It didn't swing it over to too much lowend or hurt articulation at all?
> 
> I'm interested in the mod.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's pretty dramatic, especially if you're like me and you keep the gain pretty low on the lead channel. With the gain on 10 it will sound the same as before. But with the gain down the voicing is very, very similar to the green channel. It's a broad reduction in high frequencies. The other frequencies aren't affected, but your relative perception of them will be different. If you like having the lead channel be a bit edgier than the green channel, you're probably better off replacing it with a smaller value cap. Removing the cap altogether makes it like a high gain extension of the green channel.
> 
> BTW, my amp is a DSL 100 made in 2000. The front board says JCM2-61-00 issue #3 and the bright cap was labeled C12. The stock value is 470pf.
Click to expand...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I didn't think you ever tried one. I never heard you make any remarks about it. Was it a V1 or V2 tube? Good tube, but not your favorite. You prefer the Tele over it, right? Do you own an Amperex, or should I say Philips tube?



I'm pretty sure in one of your packs you sent me it had an Amperex in it. Maybe I'm confusing it with a Tungsram. Did you ever send me any of these? If not I haven't tried an Amperex. Now my memory isn't clear on it but I know I haven't tried either of these any other time. I was thinking it was from you when I wrote that. I also remember it was good and I'm sure I put it in both V1 and V2 too if and when I demoed it.


----------



## solarburn

el zilcho said:


> solarburnDSL50 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's pretty dramatic, especially if you're like me and you keep the gain pretty low on the lead channel. With the gain on 10 it will sound the same as before. But with the gain down the voicing is very, very similar to the green channel. It's a broad reduction in high frequencies. The other frequencies aren't affected, but your relative perception of them will be different. If you like having the lead channel be a bit edgier than the green channel, you're probably better off replacing it with a smaller value cap. Removing the cap altogether makes it like a high gain extension of the green channel.
> 
> BTW, my amp is a DSL 100 made in 2000. The front board says JCM2-61-00 issue #3 and the bright cap was labeled C12. The stock value is 470pf.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I've always heard this mod referred to as the C12 mod. I do keep my gain low on the red channel. Around 3.5 using lead 2 and then maybe 5 on lead 1 which to me is where it is overly bright. Using lead 2 eq'd right warms it up quite a bit and having the gain low I can still get good note separation.
> 
> Did you remove it all the way or use a cap with a smaller value? This mod is easily changed back as well so I find this very attractive and may get it done. Thanks for the input on this ez.
> 
> Ok boyz...tubes right?
Click to expand...


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Anything good about GE black plates?


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Anything good about GE black plates?



Well we have discussed them on and off and the most recent was several pages back with WEGMAN.

GE Black Plates are great, all-around tubes. If high gain, they make a great V2 if you have a four preamp tube amp. The short black plates are my favorite and I have five or so made in the late 50's. It seems that most black plates were made in a small window of time. I think Raytheon quit their regular BP production by 1966. RCA was done with their BP's before that.

A GE BP is not going to be a world class V1 tube. However, as I have said before, I would gladly use it over an current production tube. I think they make a great PI tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm pretty sure in one of your packs you sent me it had an Amperex in it. Maybe I'm confusing it with a Tungsram. Did you ever send me any of these? If not I haven't tried an Amperex. Now my memory isn't clear on it but I know I haven't tried either of these any other time. I was thinking it was from you when I wrote that. I also remember it was good and I'm sure I put it in both V1 and V2 too if and when I demoed it.



Are you saying that I sent you one with some other tubes and then you sent them back, or do you think you have one? It may be a relabeled tube and not say Amperex on it, but it should say, "Made In Holland." 

Take a look and see, because if you had one I felt that it would give the Telefunken a run for its money. As you know, I prefer my Holland tubes over my German tubes. "But that's just me...what do I know?"


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you saying that I sent you one with some other tubes and then you sent them back, or do you think you have one? It may be a relabeled tube and not say Amperex on it, but it should say, "Made In Holland."
> 
> Take a look and see, because if you had one I felt that it would give the Telefunken a run for its money. As you know, I prefer my Holland tubes over my German tubes. "But that's just me...what do I know?"



Yeah I sent it back and I'm pretty sure now it was an Amperex cause I remember you saying how good these Holland tubes are. I bet I was too quick about it at the time. I think I focused on other ones then.

It was way before the Telefunkens.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is causing a stir over at my, "The End Of Tube Amps" thread. The OP for this apparently did not look very close at the website. These are solid state replacements for 12AX7's and can only be used in certain slots. You can read my comments over at the other thread. Here is the link.

Welcome to WattGrinder Engineering, Inc.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/5426-end-tube-guitar-amps.html


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is causing a stir over at my, "The End Of Tube Amps" thread. The OP for this apparently did not look very close at the website. These are solid state replacements for 12AX7's and can only be used in certain slots. You can read my comments over at the other thread. Here is the link.
> 
> Welcome to WattGrinder Engineering, Inc.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/5426-end-tube-guitar-amps.html



Yeah I've already checked it out quite awhile ago. Saw the vids and such. Way too expensive compared to the real thing. I have not heard any demos from the original vids when they were first introducing them. 

Do they have sound samples yet?

EDIT: Ok I am checking their sound samples out now.


----------



## brillthor

Hi, I'm new to this forum and I was hoping you guys could help me out a little. I need a new preamp tube for my 50watt Marshall JCM 900. Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you.

- b c p


----------



## rockinr0ll

I would suggest the following:

V1 - JAN NOS 5751
V2 - JJ ECC83S
V2 - JJ ECC83S with Balanced Triodes for phase inverter


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 5751 is going to decrease your gain. Depending on your style, it can be a good selection. However, I have found that a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 on a 900 makes the amps tonal qualities change for the better. Then I back this up with a neutral high gain tube like a 7025. V3 and V4 can be current production tubes, or GE or Sylvania 12AX7's.


***2900***


----------



## thrawn86

PTI.....
I'm sure you've already answered this, gents, but can you mix CP and NOS without a problem?


----------



## rockinr0ll

Of course, I have had no problemos. 

Side note: JJ ECC83S preamp tubes will arrive today. Expect a review.


----------



## solarburn

rockinr0ll said:


> Of course, I have had no problemos.
> 
> Side note: JJ ECC83S preamp tubes will arrive today. Expect a review.



This Thrawn^ as long as they are a 12AX7 or appropriate substitute(http://thetubestore.com/gainfactor.html)

Coolness. I luv's the tube reviews.

How many 83S's are you going to be using?


----------



## TheGummy

I'm looking at getting some new/old preamp tubes for my MkII combo. Anyone have any suggestions?

I only ever run the preamp at 5 when i want distortion, so i'm thinking it might be cool to get some preamp tubes that will allow me to turn that up higher before it gets too saturated. Any opinions on that? I never need any high gain and I use the Blackstar HT-Dual if i want any more.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

I too am looking to retube my 900...mostly for kicks as I've gotten used to the sound and like it...so naturally something has gotta change!


----------



## RiverRatt

Guys, if you have a Marshall with the standard four preamp tube setup, a Telefunken ECC83 in V1 and a Raytheon 12AX7A black plate in V2 is a great combination. I think everyone on this thread who has tried this combination has loved it. I'm running a smooth plate Tele, but the other guys say the ribbed plate tubes have a little more edge. V3 and V4 don't matter so much. Most of us are running Sylvania or G.E. 12AX7s in these spots. I've been picking up a few tubes here and there as I can afford to, and I've got some good sounding ones, but every time I come back to that Tele/Raytheon combo I'm amazed at how much better it sounds than whatever I was just using.

If you've only got three preamp tubes, V1 is the only one you'll really need to be concerned with. A Telefunken might not be the best choice here IMHO. They seem to be a little too bright by themselves. A better choice might be a Mullard or RFT. Again, a Sylvania or G.E. 12AX7 will do just fine in the other two spots.


----------



## rockinr0ll

So I tried out the JJ's. 

I noticed right away that they were a lot tighter sounding. I actually thought it was warmer than the Sovtek WA. I didn't think they were dark but I could see how people could consider them that. I would say however that they are rather flat sounding. I'm not sure what I think about them yet but I have tried worse. If you want to clean up your sound I would suggest JJ preamps tubes.


----------



## Landshark

rockinr0ll said:


> So I tried out the JJ's.
> 
> If you want to clean up your sound I would suggest JJ preamps tubes.



They don't let me get away with anything...


----------



## solarburn

rockinr0ll said:


> So I tried out the JJ's.
> 
> I noticed right away that they were a lot tighter sounding. I actually thought it was warmer than the Sovtek WA. I didn't think they were dark but I could see how people could consider them that. I would say however that they are rather flat sounding. I'm not sure what I think about them yet but I have tried worse. If you want to clean up your sound I would suggest JJ preamps tubes.



Thanks for the review. My play'n and these tubes just didn't mix well. Pretty inexpensive preamp tube which is always a plus.

I found them flat too and dynamically handicapped but if high gain is more of what someone wants then they prolly work fine there.

I'd run them if tight on money though. I'd rather play than not...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Copied remarks from another thread.

You know, a lot of guys might not believe this, but I truly do care about how you obtain your tubes and I hope that you get the best quality that you can afford. I really hate hearing about people who got ripped off or they bought tubes from some place and were "steered in a certain direction."

I haven't had to do much business with the online tube stores. Since 2005, I have pretty much been involved with buying and selling NOS tubes. I do buy current production stuff to test and the last batch was about four months ago. However, now certain places charge you for what should be free and it's all five bucks a pop per tube. What's up with that?

Just so you know, you shouldn't pay for matching or a balanced Phase Inverter tube. A Marshall amp works fine without having balanced tubes and in fact it can sound better, because of overtones generated by an unbalanced preamp tube. The PI tube does not have to be balanced. Let me tell you what some harmonica players do. They take a 12DW7 and it has a gain of a 12AX7 on one triode and the gain of a 12AU7 on the other triode, so it would be 100/17 instead of 100/100. They put this in the PI and this gross mismatch allows the amp to produce harmonics and overtones that a regular amp can't produce. SO PLEASE, DON'T LET SOMEONE TALK YOU INTO BUYING A BALANCED TUBE FOR THE PI.

I mean what is a balanced tube and what is a matched tube? I always thought it was one in the same. However, balanced means each triode in the tube is close and matched means they match the gain of one tube to another. An example would be V1 is 95-94 and V2 is 96-94. This would be an example of balanced and matched.

One company's definition can be different than some other company. On a balanced tube is it 5 per cent or 3 percent? Is that really balanced, or should it be 1 per cent? The problem with this, is that it is extremely difficult to pull production tubes and have them be balanced. Maybe one in twenty is somewhat balanced and that is what is sold as balanced.

The other thing is why would you want your V1 to be as strong as your V2? I'm not saying it's wrong, because your playing style may dictate that. I'm just saying that I have done a lot of testing on Marshall amps and if you have four preamp tubes, the way to go is a medium gain in V1 and a high gain in V2. This gives you a cleaner "Clean" channel and then V2 gives plenty of gain for crunch and lead.

Although I am committed to NOS tubes, I do make recommendations on current production preamp tubes. I think the Tung-Sol short plate is probably the best sounding overall CP 12AX7. The bargain tube that sounds really good is the regular Electro-Harmonix 12AX7. (You don't need to buy the gold pin model.) The Mullard RI is also a very good tube and I usually recommend it in V2. Here is what I recommend for a four tube CP line up.

V1-Tung-Sol
V2-Mullard RI
V3-EH
V4-EH

For a three tube, V1 is your everything tube. It is the only gain tube in the amp, so you need to make it a good one. Generally, I always recommend a NOS tube for V1. Again, based on my testing, I recommend a Tung-Sol.

This is a copy of a post I left on a different thread. I brought it over here because I see that there has been some posting pertaining to buying balanced PI tubes. You just do not need to do this. If you have, pull it out and swap it with one of your other tubes. Can you hear a difference? 

Please do not get caught up in this 5 dollars for matching per tube and five dollars for balancing per tube and 5 dollars extra for a "balanced" PI tube. It's just not necessary.

When I sell NOS tubes, I do try to sell tubes that are fairly balanced, but I don't worry if they are not perfect. My tester says a 12AX7 is minimum good at 22, but by 30 it is a high gain. If I sell a tube and it is 27-25, that's plenty good. Inexperienced tube buyers are the favorite customers of the tube stores. Don't be one of them. Ask questions before you buy.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Copied remarks from another thread.
> 
> 
> <snipped for reasons of not wanting to fill the screen with duplicates of what has gone before>
> 
> Ask questions before you buy.



As always tons of great advice from guys with lots of experience. I have a couple of questions which have raised themsleves from the last few posts, the first i feel a bit silly asking but hey thats how you learns isnt it?

Is my DSL 401 a 3 or 4 preamp amp, are you counting the PI as part of the pre-amp or not? 

And so depending the answer to that out of what i creentl;y have what would suggest for each slot, given i play pop/classic rock/punk and like to wail a bit too 

Valves i have or that will be here soon, all 12ax7 of course

3 x Brimar
2 x valvos
2 x RFT
4 x NOS 12ax7 of unknown origin, but are much nicer than the CP tubes.
1 x GE 
1 x Sylvania
1 x Jan Phillips ECG
Umpteen JJ tesla CP and the Marshall tubes that came with the amp.

Id like to pick up a Phillips/Miniwatt/Electrohome/Telefunken type some time soon as well, as soon as one comes along at the right price but at the moment this is what i have.

So is V1 the crucial slot for me or does the V1 and V2 thing come into play with the DSL 401?

thanks

Spirit.

edited

Ps this post is not supposed to be one of those, tell me what to think types, it just from a guy who does not have all that much time to spend rolling tubes and playing at volume to determine what sounds best in what combination, im looking for a point n the right direction a little head start so i can take it from there .


----------



## rockinr0ll

What would happen if you took out V2? I have heard people taking out power tubes to cut it in half. What would happen if you took out an unused preamp tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Spirit...you got a lot of really nice tubes coming in. To answer your question, yes the 401 has four preamp tubes.

V1-First Gain Stage
V2-2nd Gain Stage
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter

Note that the Phase Inverter is considered part of the power section, but it is a preamp tube.

You'll want to put your best tube in V1 and then roll some of the others to see if you can find one that has a little more gain than V1. I like V1 to be a medium gain and V2 to be high gain. I have a tube tester, so I can do this.

I would go with a Valvo in the V1, especially if it has a slant top getter. The little halo at the top of the tube will be at an angle. Those are nice sounding tubes. Then a Brimar, the strongest one you have, in V2. I'd put the GE in V3 and the Sylvania in V4. This keeps from having to use more of your top tubes in the lesser slots. Keep the other Valvo and Brimars as future spares.


----------



## RiverRatt

rockinr0ll said:


> What would happen if you took out V2? I have heard people taking out power tubes to cut it in half. What would happen if you took out an unused preamp tube?



No sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Umpteen JJ tesla CP and the Marshall tubes that came with the amp.



What year is your amp? Those Marshall tubes might be Ei's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> What would happen if you took out V2? I have heard people taking out power tubes to cut it in half. What would happen if you took out an unused preamp tube?



Well I believe with the DSL/TSL, if you pull V2 it kills the signal path, since V2 is linked to V1. Pulling either V1 or V2 is basically creating an open in the various circuits.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Kudos out to Jon Wilder. He gave me some info on some of the older Marshall amps. The JTM's and the Bluesbreakers were very similar to the old Fender circuit. However these are three tube preamps, but the gain stages are both halves of V1 and one half of V2.

What this means is that you could take a 26-27 tube in V1 and a 30-25 in V2 and the "30" would be your kick in the pants high gain. The other side of the tube is used as a buffer circuit so it doesn't have to be a matched tube to work in this slot.

Pretty interesting.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> What year is your amp? Those Marshall tubes might be Ei's.



2004, heres a pic






@Marty i will put that line up and and fire it up tomorrow at rehersals.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cool. Hey where did you score all of the sweet tubes from?

And that tube looks like a Chinese one to me. It's not an Ei.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

When I started buying better tubes, someone somewhere at some time told me that the preamps don't have to be matched. I know the power tubes DO. Is there any advantage to have a matched set of preamp tubes; if so, what is it? Marty? RiverRatt, Solar...maybe all 3 of you since I have quickly realized the breadth of your combined knowledge..TIA
Serge


----------



## wegman

Hey guys I have another question. What makes a 12AX7A different from a 12AX7? 

I just tried a 12AX7A in V1 and it really brought out some clarity and articulation to my solos. I like if far better then any 12AX7 I have tried in V1.

Is it a lower gain or lower noise tube or something?

Thanks gents


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I've already checked it out quite awhile ago. Saw the vids and such. Way too expensive compared to the real thing. I have not heard any demos from the original vids when they were first introducing them.
> 
> Do they have sound samples yet?
> 
> EDIT: Ok I am checking their sound samples out now.


i talked to a guy on another forum said he loved them, just over a 100 a piece but i dont think there catching on lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> When I started buying better tubes, someone somewhere at some time told me that the preamps don't have to be matched. I know the power tubes DO. Is there any advantage to have a matched set of preamp tubes; if so, what is it? Marty? RiverRatt, Solar...maybe all 3 of you since I have quickly realized the breadth of your combined knowledge..TIA
> Serge



No, that's a myth just like needing a "perfectly balanced Phase Inverter tube."
The circuits in a Marshall are unbalanced. The components used can have a 20 per cent tolerance. Also, there is confusion as to what balanced and matched mean. I used to think they were both the same, but balanced means the individual tube and how each triode reads, say 95-94. That's balanced. Matched means having the ratings of one tube match another, such as 95-94 and 94-96. This is an example of matched. You do not need this in a Marshall amp. I just wrote a post on this up above. Having slightly unbalanced tubes can actually make your amp sound better. And why would you want the gain of V1 to "match" V2. I guess if you tried it and you liked it...great. However, through all of the testing done on this thread, we have found that a medium gain V1 matched to a higher gain V2 is the ticket. Now this does not apply to three tube preamps, especially JTM's and the Bluesbreaker. They use V1 and half of V2 for their gain stages.

Although I try to keep my tubes fairly even, I don't get paranoid if they are off somewhat. Besides, even though tubes may test perfect, once you put them in a circuit they can behave anyway except perfect.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Hey guys I have another question. What makes a 12AX7A different from a 12AX7?
> 
> I just tried a 12AX7A in V1 and it really brought out some clarity and articulation to my solos. I like if far better then any 12AX7 I have tried in V1.
> 
> Is it a lower gain or lower noise tube or something?
> 
> Thanks gents



You may have remembered me writing a little on this, so this time I will be brief. When 12AX7's first came out in 1947, they had parallel filament circuits. A 12AX7A will work with either series or parallel filament circuits.

Here is some more info from Brent Jessee's website. 

12AX7: the original version of this tube. This can only be used in parallel filament circuits. This is not a big deal as virtually all audio equipment is of a parallel filament design. These often have large rectangular plates with several horizontal ribs. The older versions have blackplates, which are often preferred by audiophiles.

12AX7A: This version can be used in series or parallel filament circuits. These usually date to the 1960s and have greyplates. Vintage versions of these are about the most sought after tubes of any type today. Often RCA and GE made these for electronic organ manufacturers, and have the organ brand name on the label. These are usually specially selected tubes, and are a great buy---when available! Sometimes, 12AX7A tubes made for the US Military are labeled 12AX7WA, and I have seen WB and WC versions. The W is the military type code, A,B, and C are progressively later productions. These are nice military spec tubes.

For additional reading that may lead to creaming, read this...

12AX7 Tubes in Stock

Oh and I will add that at some point tne quality of the 12AX7A matched that of a 7025 and they sort of became one in the same. There are a lot of tubes that are labeled 12AX7A/7025. Tube sellers feel that it has to say 7025 on the tube to really be a 7025. Hey, who knows? Ask Joe, he likes a 12AX7A over a 12AX7.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> You may have remembered me writing a little on this, so this time I will be brief. When 12AX7's first came out in 1947, they had parallel filament circuits. A 12AX7A will work with either series or parallel filament circuits.
> 
> Here is some more info from Brent Jessee's website.
> 
> 12AX7: the original version of this tube. This can only be used in parallel filament circuits. This is not a big deal as virtually all audio equipment is of a parallel filament design. These often have large rectangular plates with several horizontal ribs. The older versions have blackplates, which are often preferred by audiophiles.
> 
> 12AX7A: This version can be used in series or parallel filament circuits. These usually date to the 1960s and have greyplates. Vintage versions of these are about the most sought after tubes of any type today. Often RCA and GE made these for electronic organ manufacturers, and have the organ brand name on the label. These are usually specially selected tubes, and are a great buy---when available! Sometimes, 12AX7A tubes made for the US Military are labeled 12AX7WA, and I have seen WB and WC versions. The W is the military type code, A,B, and C are progressively later productions. These are nice military spec tubes.
> 
> For additional reading that may lead to creaming, read this...
> 
> 12AX7 Tubes in Stock
> 
> Oh and I will add that at some point tne quality of the 12AX7A matched that of a 7025 and they sort of became one in the same. There are a lot of tubes that are labeled 12AX7A/7025. Tube sellers feel that it has to say 7025 on the tube to really be a 7025. Hey, who knows? Ask Joe, he likes a 12AX7A over a 12AX7.



Thanks Marty.

I vaguely remember something about this so thank for the refresher.

How did you learn so much about tubes? Was it your military training or vocation or just reading?]

Edit: I have been out to that page many many times. I have read so much shit I can't keep it all straight.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem. This kind of info is asked about ever so often, just like other common questions. I don't expect someone to find the info in this snake of a thread on their own when it can be posted and answered quickly. That's my job and I enjoy doing it.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> SO PLEASE, DON'T LET SOMEONE TALK YOU INTO BUYING A BALANCED TUBE FOR THE PI.



I know Marty know this for a fact. I got suckered into a balanced tube for the PI once. You know where it ended up? V1


----------



## RiverRatt

30stringsandblackdog said:


> When I started buying better tubes, someone somewhere at some time told me that the preamps don't have to be matched. I know the power tubes DO. Is there any advantage to have a matched set of preamp tubes; if so, what is it? Marty? RiverRatt, Solar...maybe all 3 of you since I have quickly realized the breadth of your combined knowledge..TIA
> Serge



Are you talking about matched tubes or matched triodes? I really don't see why you would want either one. I've tried a lot of tubes as a phase inverter and I really couldn't tell you that it made much difference either way. Low and high gain tubes sound different as PIs. I read where someone said (hell, it may have even been in this thread - I can't remember) that using a 12AT7 made the amp sound more like a cranked amp at lower volumes. That may be true, but I think it also makes the amp a little less responsive. I know that this probably isn't what you want to hear, but you're just going to have to try several different tubes and decide what sounds good to you.

If you mean tubes that are matched, I don't really like that approach, either. Most everybody here will agree that a lower gain tube in V1 and a higher gain in V2 is a great combination. 

I don't even think that perfect matching is that important with power tubes, especially in a modern amp. If you have an amp with two bias trimpots and you think your tubes are matched, bias them dead even and then switch them around and check your bias again.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Cool. Hey where did you score all of the sweet tubes from?
> 
> And that tube looks like a Chinese one to me. It's not an Ei.




Ebay of course! Thought the Marshall valve were nothing special, but no harm in hanging onto them maybe someone else will need them some day.

Sad news it looks as if both the valvos are on the way out, one was crackly and and had that windy noise going on and the second one had hiss on it, but i only tried the second on for a bit so i have put the brimar back in and it sounds so much better, have contacted the seller and he is sending replacements, but of all the valaves i have bought recently im liking the rimars best, still awaiting the RFT's and the replacement valvos.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...but it makes you wonder why the seller sent you two bad tubes. I buy dozens each week and the "bad" rate is pretty low, although I do have my moments when it seems as if all my sellers are sending me bad tubes. I have a good, solid tester and no bad tube gets by me for the most part.

I'm glad he is sending you new Valvo's because I think you are going to like them.


----------



## solarburn

I almost bought a Brimar 1964 CV4035. Then I reminded myself its Christmas and my money is spent. Immediate family and Wilder hehe. To top it off a new washing machine cause ours just quit. Shit! Love those unexpected expenses NOT!

I'll get one down the road when its time...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know. Times are tough everywhere. I'm thinking about opening a whorehouse and operating it by hand.


----------



## MartyStrat54

.


MartyStrat54 said:


> This is how my whorehouse would look like with me running it by hand.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody recognize these tubes? They have a seamed top but the plates don't look like anything I've seen - they definitely don't look like Philips plates.

Pair of NOS International 12AX7 A / ECC83 Preamp Tubes


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> .



That's spanktacular!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Anybody recognize these tubes? They have a seamed top but the plates don't look like anything I've seen - they definitely don't look like Philips plates.
> 
> Pair of NOS International 12AX7 A / ECC83 Preamp Tubes



Those are made in Japan. The 922 code is Japanese, but I forgot what manufacturer. I think they were made by Matsushita. Could be worth the money if gotten cheap.


----------



## rockinr0ll

How do you re-tension preamp tube sockets? 1987x


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> How do you re-tension preamp tube sockets? 1987x



I usually take a small length of guitar wire, I believe it's a 22 and stick it in the hole. You want it to be a little smaller in diameter then the pins on the tube. You can then take a pair of small flat nose pliers and lightly squeeze the socket legs. You don't want to smash it down. You want the wire to come out fairly easy. Do that to all nine pins and you'll be set.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That's spanktacular!



So you found my hidden micro chip. It allows me to keep an eye on everythign going on with the thread.

No really, it's funny sometimes that you have to add one character to copy a quote. What's up with that?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So you found my hidden micro chip. It allows me to keep an eye on everythign going on with the thread.
> 
> No really, it's funny sometimes that you have to add one character to copy a quote. What's up with that?



I know hahaha! That little dot kinda ruined it for me. Now that I know its a micro chip it all makes sense...


----------



## ken361

NGD! traded in 2 older guitars for a 1959 limited epiphone les paul with burstbucker, maple cap and all. Sounds sweet through my marshall! just wanted to pass that along lol


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> NGD! traded in 2 older guitars for a 1959 limited epiphone les paul with burstbucker, maple cap and all. Sounds sweet through my marshall! just wanted to pass that along lol



I hate you man!!!!

Rock that bitch!


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I hate you man!!!!
> 
> Rock that bitch!


lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Ken, glad to hear you got a nice one. I'm normally not on this early, but the heater was acting up and it was around 8 below yesterday morning. The heater repairman had to put a new board in the heater. So now I'm up catching Solar on the flip side since he works nights.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks Ken, glad to hear you got a nice one. I'm normally not on this early, but the heater was acting up and it was around 8 below yesterday morning. The heater repairman had to put a new board in the heater. So now I'm up catching Solar on the flip side since he works nights.



Its my day off so I'll be up most of the day causing trouble. Good to hear the heater got fixed! That's damn cold to be having a problem like that.

On a side note Alan gave me some tubes to play with so I get to mess around with that today too. One of the preamp tubes is the Realistic(Japanese)and the other an AT7 which I'm sure really won't be exciting many here hehe.

I'm giving the Mullard RI EL34's(GT's version)a run and see how they perform as well.


----------



## ken361

yeah marty glad you got heat! its 19 in michigan! Solar those M tubes are pretty good for RI, I have the 12 ax7's


----------



## ken361

http://










My boy george Lynch


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh boy pictures. Hey I like that pink liner. It goes good with the sunburst.

Yeah, I've met George four or five times at least. He sure has mellowed out a lot from his wild dog days.


----------



## solarburn

Is that you with him? Man he looks old in that pic.


----------



## ken361

yeah me


----------



## solarburn

Cool! Now I've got a face behind the name. Yeah that pink liner is sexy man. Nice guitar.


----------



## ken361

thanks! plays great!


----------



## RiverRatt

Did anybody here get the two Philips Canada 12AX7s that just went on eBay?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not two, but I've bought 40 of the Philips Electrohome from Gameshound. Was this the seller? Usually he sells in lots of four. I bought some off of him and they all tested really super. The tubes sound great, very similar to an Amperex. I mean you would have to use a tube headphone amp to tell the difference. Needless to say, I've been one of his best customers. He starts his auctions out at $40!!! I usually get a lot for around $52.

So no it wasn't me. Were you bidding on some tubes? Were they Philips or Electrohome?


----------



## Procter2812

Well...

I finally got that replacement Telefunken smooth/long plate.

Sounded like heaven for 10 minutes then it sounded like a jet engine was at idol just like chhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

This isnt good. 2 bad! Im sticking to the good old MULLARD


----------



## RiverRatt

That's really odd, procter. Telefunken quality is legendary. I read that there are some really convinving Chinese fakes floating around. If the tube doesn't have the diamond molded into the base and/or the writing is in really good shape and won't rub off, it's a fake. Or, it could just be another bad tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not two, but I've bought 40 of the Philips Electrohome from Gameshound. Was this the seller? Usually he sells in lots of four. I bought some off of him and they all tested really super. The tubes sound great, very similar to an Amperex. I mean you would have to use a tube headphone amp to tell the difference. Needless to say, I've been one of his best customers. He starts his auctions out at $40!!! I usually get a lot for around $52.
> 
> So no it wasn't me. Were you bidding on some tubes? Were they Philips or Electrohome?



Yes, they were Electrohome. The seller was pacifictv and I let them get away at $20.51 for the pair. I was pissed!!! I thought they were going to go cheaper and got sniped in the last two seconds. 

2 PHILIPS r CODE ECC83 / 12AX7 TWIN TRIODE TUBES 1964


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, they were Electrohome. The seller was pacifictv and I let them get away at $20.51 for the pair. I was pissed!!! I thought they were going to go cheaper and got sniped in the last two seconds.
> 
> 2 PHILIPS r CODE ECC83 / 12AX7 TWIN TRIODE TUBES 1964



Yeah I as watching the Gameshounds ones, they all went for a little more than i could afford, shame they looked like nice valves, and i was up at past 1 a.m. to miss out 4 times in a row!

Still on the bright side, it turns out 1 of my valvos is fine after all, just sounded hissy in combination with one of the brimars, which itself sounds really dark in comparison to the other two i have?. Also my 2 RFT's arrived and i had a chance to A/B the RFT's and the Valvos in V1 with a Brimar in V2, the valvos sounded great, but the RFTs have more punch, maybe they are a little stronger, i dont know the reason but as both sounded fabulous i really cant go wrong either way, i plumped for the RFT/Brimar combination for now.
Just bought 2 Phillips miniwatts of Ebay aswell, so these should be here next week, and after that i will call it a day for now, its costing me a bloody fortune!
The valvos are not slanted getter btw but the RFT's look to be  Some pics to follow later.
Btw i had a JJ in V4 as sound wise i could detect not a lot of difference between that and the Sylvania, but upon powering up today i had almost no volume!?! changed out V4 and all was fine so the JJ is now resigned to the bin and the Sylvania is back in V4.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> That's really odd, procter. Telefunken quality is legendary. I read that there are some really convinving Chinese fakes floating around. If the tube doesn't have the diamond molded into the base and/or the writing is in really good shape and won't rub off, it's a fake. Or, it could just be another bad tube.



Yeah it has the molded diamond in the bottom and the logo has partially rubbed off.

Im gonna test it with other valves to make sure it wasnt one of the Mullards/Brimars in V2 and V3


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Yeah I as watching the Gameshounds ones, they all went for a little more than i could afford, shame they looked like nice valves, and i was up at past 1 a.m. to miss out 4 times in a row!
> 
> Still on the bright side, it turns out 1 of my valvos is fine after all, just sounded hissy in combination with one of the brimars, which itself sounds really dark in comparison to the other two i have?. Also my 2 RFT's arrived and i had a chance to A/B the RFT's and the Valvos in V1 with a Brimar in V2, the valvos sounded great, but the RFTs have more punch, maybe they are a little stronger, i dont know the reason but as both sounded fabulous i really cant go wrong either way, i plumped for the RFT/Brimar combination for now.
> Just bought 2 Phillips miniwatts of Ebay aswell, so these should be here next week, and after that i will call it a day for now, its costing me a bloody fortune!
> The valvos are not slanted getter btw but the RFT's look to be  Some pics to follow later.
> Btw i had a JJ in V4 as sound wise i could detect not a lot of difference between that and the Sylvania, but upon powering up today i had almost no volume!?! changed out V4 and all was fine so the JJ is now resigned to the bin and the Sylvania is back in V4.



I wasn't up that late, but I hate losing auctions because somebody sneaks in an extra $.50 at the last minute. We've got satellite internet out here in the stix, and it's too slow to do those last second bids.

Yeah, you won't notice a difference between a cheap tube or NOS in V4 unless the gain is way different. Reliability is the main reason I use GEs and Sylvanias. Marty got me started with that and I dug a few old GEs out out my junk drawer and they sounded fine in V4. Solar had a JJ that lasted 4 hours! That's what I don't like about these places that charge a premium to test and match CP preamp tubes. They aren't going to catch a tube like that. I can't imagine what the actual failure rate is with CP tubes if you count all the ones that are screened out at the factory and then at the retail level. It must be astronomical.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I wasn't up that late, but I hate losing auctions because somebody sneaks in an extra $.50 at the last minute. We've got satellite internet out here in the stix, and it's too slow to do those last second bids.
> 
> Yeah, you won't notice a difference between a cheap tube or NOS in V4 unless the gain is way different. Reliability is the main reason I use GEs and Sylvanias. Marty got me started with that and I dug a few old GEs out out my junk drawer and they sounded fine in V4. Solar had a JJ that lasted 4 hours! That's what I don't like about these places that charge a premium to test and match CP preamp tubes. They aren't going to catch a tube like that. I can't imagine what the actual failure rate is with CP tubes if you count all the ones that are screened out at the factory and then at the retail level. It must be astronomical.



Before I got dragged into the world of NOS and such i bought a box 8 of JJs figuring id be good for preamp tubes for a fair old while, im going to put the remainder of them on Ebay, sure someone will buy em for cheap, but i dont need tubes crapping out on me after being in the amp for 1/2 an hour! Got a rehersal again tomorrow so i can try out the now RFT/Brimar combination at a decent volume


----------



## MartyStrat54

On average, CP failure rate on initial burn in is over 50 per cent. The remaining tubes are distributed and sold. Out of those, it is estimated another 20 per cent will have problems and fail.

I think some of the CP tubes are getting better and in a recent post, I lifted my ban of using a Tung-Sol in V3 of a four preamp tube amp. This is because the comments about it failing in V3 were true, but after doing some research, I discovered that the comments and the failing tubes all occurred five years ago.

I still recommend an American NOS in the non gain stages. This adds reliability to the amp.

Like I posted prior to this, the European tubes do have the edge in sound over most American tubes. There are several reasons for this, namely better quality of parts and better craftsmanship (technique). However, we all started with a variety of American tubes and before I got heavy into rolling, one of my amps was an RCA 7025 and three short plate GE's. To me it sounded great. My other amps were tubed in a similar way. I had Amperex, Mullards and Telefunkens. I just thought that what I had was as good as what they could offer.

Once again, I will say it took some people getting me off my butt to do some serious tube rolling and that resulted in my falling in love with the Amperex. I like the Telefunken and would not hesitate to use it, but my personal preference is the Amperex. Of course, that is paired with the American tube that everybody likes, the Raytheon Black Plate. Now I did take an Amperex 7025 high gain and put it in V2 with the Amperex 12AX7 and I guess the best way to put it is it allowed the Amperex to sound more like an Amperex. So in one of my amps, I still have it this way.

The main point is you always want your best tubes in your gain stage(s). Then use GE's, Sylvania's or Westinghouse in the other slots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a little European combo lot I won. They all tested solid. First time I used this seller, so I hope they are honest.

7 12AX7 TUBES MULLARD TELEFUNKEN AMPEREX TESTED! - eBay (item 290378155160 end time Dec-08-09 17:01:26 PST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, they were Electrohome. The seller was pacifictv and I let them get away at $20.51 for the pair. I was pissed!!! I thought they were going to go cheaper and got sniped in the last two seconds.
> 
> 2 PHILIPS r CODE ECC83 / 12AX7 TWIN TRIODE TUBES 1964



Well I looked at the listing and one of those tubes was really on the weak side and the other was just a little better. Maybe it was fate, because personally, I wouldn't have bid on those tubes based on those test scores. I would not sell a tube like that. It would be flat in V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

See, that's what I don't know enough about is tube tester numbers. I looked at their test figures and did the math, and if you take their minimum good and average new numbers at face value, the weakest triode in that set is 86% of new. To me, that's a good tube. How do you look at that and know what's good and what's not?


----------



## MartyStrat54

These two used Philips made ECC83/12AX7 twin triode tubes are tested good (1020-1000, 990-1020) on our Stark 9-66 tube tester and each have etched 1964 Philips Ontario Canada plant code r4J4.

Average rated Gm each triode for a new 12AX7 tube is 1150 (minimum Gm based on JAN limits is 725). 

The Electrohome's I bought were all much stronger than that. What worries me about the testing is that is was done on a Stark. This is an Emissions tester and they are not near as accurate as a dynamic mutual conductance tester. Emission testers seem to exaggerate the values, especially on weaker tubes. 

Listen to this. The guy that I usually buy all my Raytheon BP's uses a cheap emission tester. The tester goes to 130. All of his tubes are 130/130, 129/130, 130/129. When I get them, they are all good, but one of his 130/130 will read on my tester as 25/26. Another 130/130 will read 30/29. You see what I mean about accuracy?

If the above tubes had read 1400/1500 and 1450/1550...those would be safe to buy. In the future, send me the link and I can tell you whether they are worth buying or not.


----------



## wegman

I was pricing RCA 12AX7A's and they were $134. I that for real? :Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Who is asking that much? Are they brand new in an original box?


----------



## wegman

Yes it said that they were NOS. They were on Ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Match-RCA-12AX7...emZ360139550630QQcategoryZ39783QQcmdZViewItem


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's too much by a long shot. I bet if you watch, that auction will end without a buyer. I didn't notice when the auction ended, so I assume that it is one of those 30 days auction.

You can get some damn nice tubes for $140.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's too much by a long shot. I bet if you watch, that auction will end without a buyer. I didn't notice when the auction ended, so I assume that it is one of those 30 days auction.
> 
> You can get some damn nice tubes for $140.



That was the buy it now price.

That's what I was thinking. I mean the 12AX7A is supposed to be a sweet tube but from what you guys are saying the Telefunkens are boss.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

If I wanted to get into tube testers for home, what would be good to buy...type, brand, etc...


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> If I wanted to get into tube testers for home, what would be good to buy...type, brand, etc...



Well that is a very lengthy subject and I have answered it before. I will answer your question, but I will only state the basics. If you want more info, you will have to locate it in the thread.

The Amplitrex 1000 is the newest tube tester. It is state of the art and costs $2550 plus tax and shipping.

In the old days there were two types of testers, an emission tester and a dynamic mutual conductance tester. You can buy an emissions tester on EBAY fairly cheap, but they are not very accurate and that is why the mutual conductance tester was developed. It tests a tube very well except for microphonics. Only a few of the new, modern testers can do that.

Testers I recommend are B and K testers, especially the 707.

Hickok testers. Make sure the Hickok you are looking at tests nine pin tubes. Some do not.

Hickok Military TV-7 testers. A lot of people swear by them, but they need to be calibrated or they are off on their readings.

Now, say you found a tube tester. You bought it from someone or you won it online. Tube testers are as old as the tubes we now crave. So you are buying 45 year old electronics. I would advise that the tester be cleaned and calibrated. The other thing that can go wrong is worn out tube sockets. I bought three different 707's before getting one in excellent shape with good sockets. There is a company on EBAY that specializes in doing tester calibrations. If you ever need the info, I can pass it along.

So the main thing is you want a dynamic mutual conductance tester. I prefer the B and K because you can test tubes really fast on it. Faster than any other tester. Just make sure it comes with the tube chart manual. It is usually mounted to the inside part of the top lid.

BK B&K 700 Vacuum Tube Tester w/ manual - eBay (item 140365722671 end time Dec-13-09 15:43:36 PST)

RD Electronics tube tester TV-7/u TV-7B/u serial #10 - eBay (item 120503148413 end time Dec-13-09 18:55:48 PST)

Military tube tester TV-7 A/U Working & Calibrated TV7 - eBay (item 200407064513 end time Dec-16-09 20:42:37 PST)

B&K 747 Tube tester - eBay (item 320461719539 end time Dec-22-09 09:42:09 PST)

B&K 707 TUBE TESTER CLEANED SERVICED AND CALIBRATED - eBay (item 120504372319 end time Dec-19-09 16:17:28 PST)

The last link is for a nice, calibrated 707 like I have.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good stuff, Marty. Tube testers and their numbers have always been the most confusing part of this. I'd love to get a nice tester, just so I can tell when I get a bad tube from an auction. It would probably pay for itself. I can't figure out the Hickok people. Some say that minimum good is 1250, others say 850, I can't tell if it's different from model to model, or just seller BS. The girl we've all bought from seems to be dependable and I usually measure other Hickok readings based on what I've bought from her. She uses a Hickok 6000 and says the minimum on hers is 1250, but I see lower numbers than that all the time on eBay. I usually look for a tube that's at least in the 1800s on a Hickok.

Has anybody else who's tried the Telefunken/Raytheon combo noticed the even-order harmonics in the Tele? It's unbelievable. A simple A power chord (open A and the E above) sounds like a full chord. I was doing some listening today, and you can hear an octave above the A and even a major 3rd as it fades. Part of this may be the Les Paul/PAF clones, but no other tube in my collection sounds like this one (props to Wolfe McCleod for a sweet humbucker set, too). BTW, there are several pairs of Raytheon black plates on eBay right now. Looks like they are going to go pretty high. We're going to have to quit talking them up! 

I'll talk to you guys later this weekend. I'm going to hit the couch with a bottle of Aussie red and some Zyrtec and anything else I can find in the medicine cabinet. I'm getting a sinus infection so bad my face hurts. Just one of the joys of living in the Tennessee Valley.


----------



## rockinr0ll

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a little European combo lot I won. They all tested solid. First time I used this seller, so I hope they are honest.
> 
> 7 12AX7 TUBES MULLARD TELEFUNKEN AMPEREX TESTED! - eBay (item 290378155160 end time Dec-08-09 17:01:26 PST)



Aww... Tell me how they turn out I want some!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Good stuff, Marty. Tube testers and their numbers have always been the most confusing part of this. I'd love to get a nice tester, just so I can tell when I get a bad tube from an auction. It would probably pay for itself. I can't figure out the Hickok people. Some say that minimum good is 1250, others say 850, I can't tell if it's different from model to model, or just seller BS. The girl we've all bought from seems to be dependable and I usually measure other Hickok readings based on what I've bought from her. She uses a Hickok 6000 and says the minimum on hers is 1250, but I see lower numbers than that all the time on eBay. I usually look for a tube that's at least in the 1800s on a Hickok.



Well, I've touched on this before with those Hickok's. It all depends on what model they are. You're right, most state that a 12AX7 is nominal new at 1250. So it is a matter of model and not the seller.



> Has anybody else who's tried the Telefunken/Raytheon combo noticed the even-order harmonics in the Tele? It's unbelievable. A simple A power chord (open A and the E above) sounds like a full chord. I was doing some listening today, and you can hear an octave above the A and even a major 3rd as it fades. Part of this may be the Les Paul/PAF clones, but no other tube in my collection sounds like this one (props to Wolfe McCleod for a sweet humbucker set, too). BTW, there are several pairs of Raytheon black plates on eBay right now. Looks like they are going to go pretty high. We're going to have to quit talking them up!



I don't have a humbucker on my Tele. It's a pure American model with single coils. I've been playing my Explorer more and of course it has flame throwers for pickups. I noticed that my overall tone is much thicker with more overtones. Also, my digital delay sounds cleaner and fuller. That's with a rib plate Telefunken, high gain Raytheon BP and two higher gain Sylvania's with Mullard xf2 power tubes. I'll pull my Schecter out and see if I can hear it with the DiMarzio's. 



> I'll talk to you guys later this weekend. I'm going to hit the couch with a bottle of Aussie red and some Zyrtec and anything else I can find in the medicine cabinet. I'm getting a sinus infection so bad my face hurts. Just one of the joys of living in the Tennessee Valley.



Well, I have a large stash of prescriptions and a lot of them have red labels on the top of the bottle. Let's just say if I'm hurting, I have stuff to relieve the hurting. However, I can't send any of them to you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the thought, anyway. It'd have to be some strong stuff to do much for me. About the only red label meds I keep are the ones that put me to sleep for 8-12 hours. I used to put those labels on my saxophone case back when I was playing - I liked the part about "may cause drowsiness. Alcohol may intensify this effect". 

Speaking of, since you posted some of your old stuff, here's me at the repair shop with "Bertha", my bass that I played for awhile. One of the guys from the band sent me this recently. I don't think I have any gig pictures at all, guitar or sax. I tried to stay out of pictures as much as possible.






How do you like that Schecter? I've heard good things about them.


----------



## thrawn86

I'll bet Bertha sounds nice. I'd play my tenor, but it's busted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Schecter is a guitar of incredible quality. However, they discontinued the model I have. I was sad to see them going for over $120 less than what I paid.

I took out the stock pickups and put a PAF in the neck and a Distortion Plus for the bridge.

It's a longer scale guitar, so it plays a lot different than my Strat.


----------



## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> I'll bet Bertha sounds nice. I'd play my tenor, but it's busted.



It sounded nice. It was a Selmer. I sold all my stuff except a tenor almost 10 years ago when I changed jobs. About the only playing I do anymore is with the local amateur theatre groups and community band, and it's hard to find time for even that. I miss doing big band stuff most of all, but it's just not worth the time and travel for a $100 gig every month or two. I've tried getting something going locally but it's damned near impossible to that many players together with any consistency. Two of my buds (brothers and *players*, one was my teacher since high school) died from cancer about 3 years apart. I got really bummed out over that and didn't think I'd play anymore at all.

Sorry for the side trip down memory lane. Back to tubes and Marshalls


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks for the thought, anyway. It'd have to be some strong stuff to do much for me. About the only red label meds I keep are the ones that put me to sleep for 8-12 hours. I used to put those labels on my saxophone case back when I was playing - I liked the part about "may cause drowsiness. Alcohol may intensify this effect".
> 
> Speaking of, since you posted some of your old stuff, here's me at the repair shop with "Bertha", my bass that I played for awhile. One of the guys from the band sent me this recently. I don't think I have any gig pictures at all, guitar or sax. I tried to stay out of pictures as much as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you like that Schecter? I've heard good things about them.



Dat's a big Sax! Good to meet ya RR!


----------



## wegman

Hey RR. Damn that is a huge sax. I didn't know they came that big.

Well since we are getting aquainted here is me and my ugly mug.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can tell that you have been a rocker. You are a rocker. Party on!


----------



## solarburn

wegman said:


> Hey RR. Damn that is a huge sax. I didn't know they came that big.
> 
> Well since we are getting aquainted here is me and my ugly mug.
> 
> View attachment 1711



Its Def Leppard!

Good to meet ya John!


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Hey RR. Damn that is a huge sax. I didn't know they came that big.
> 
> Well since we are getting aquainted here is me and my ugly mug.
> 
> View attachment 1711



Yes, that is a damned big horn. One of the worst gigs I ever had was playing that thing in a Dixieland band at minor league baseball games. The team owner thought it would be all southern and cute and New Orleans-y. I don't think the owner realized that we were almost 800 miles from New Orleans. Plus, nobody could hear us. It was like carrying a coffin across the parking lot and through the stadium for nothing. Couldn't even drink beer 'cuz we were "on duty".

Anyway, nice to meet you, John!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, it's looks like we have fixed everyone's preamp tube problems before the end of the year. We can all go back to our regular jobs.


----------



## rockinr0ll

*ring ring ring*

***Alert***

My amp totally lost power using JJ tubes. I took them out and put my beloved Groove Tubes in and the amp worked fine again. Repeated. Same findings. 

???WTF???


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> *ring ring ring*
> 
> ***Alert***
> 
> My amp totally lost power using JJ tubes. I took them out and put my beloved Groove Tubes in and the amp worked fine again. Repeated. Same findings.
> 
> ???WTF???



You're talking power tubes right? Or are you saying you have a bad JJ preamp that is killing your signal path. Either way, you have to look at your ammo. This is just me, but I don't use JJ's for anything. If there were no JJ, I wouldn't know it. Apparently, some of the Groove Tube stuff is okay, but you have to pay more for it. 

Let us know if you are talking about preamp tubes or power tubes, but regardless, it seems as if you have solved the problem yourself.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Yeah it was the preamp tubes. What could cause them to completely fail?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

*It's Time To Play "What are these Preamp Tubes?"*

Absolutely no markings; these are the ones that came in the Marshall SL..they are V1 and V2; V3 is a Chinese tube.
Any ideas? Thanks...Serge


----------



## MartyStrat54

Based on the red tone of the wire in the bottom of the tube and the "tray" under the top getter, I would say some sort of Chinese tube. I remember seeing that sort of plate design, but it wasn't on anything US or Euro. The fact that there isn't any markings is a good clue that it isn't anything exotic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's getting close to Christmas and I have been fielding a lot of questions via the PM system. I've also been asked about tubes I have for sale. Some people have watched, followed, or bid on some of the same listing that I did. This is to include the 40 or so Philips tubes I won. Certain people knew what I paid for them and then asked me to sell them some "at the price I got them for." Of course I couldn't do this and when I submitted a price, it was like I offended them.

My time is valuable. You don't win tubes on EBAY watching TV. It is almost like acquiring a skill to be able to win. Once the tubes arrive in my possession, they are retested and put in white, tube boxes. All of this is more time and money.

I treat people as fair as I can. Usually a lot better than the online stores. When I price a tube, I need to make something off of it. Please don't expect me to sell you tubes at the same price I paid. My advice to you is to win your own tubes on EBAY. Then, without a tester, you still don't know what you have won. If you think you can believe the seller...good luck, there are only a handful of honest one's. I send tubes back all of the time. Gas, shorted or weak. The tester weeds them out.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but you got to agree that selling something without making a profit is not a very wise business practice unless you are having a garage sale.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's getting close to Christmas and I have been fielding a lot of questions via the PM system. I've also been asked about tubes I have for sale. Some people have watched, followed, or bid on some of the same listing that I did. This is to include the 40 or so Philips tubes I won. Certain people knew what I paid for them and then asked me to sell them some "at the price I got them for." Of course I couldn't do this and when I submitted a price, it was like I offended them.
> 
> My time is valuable. You don't win tubes on EBAY watching TV. It is almost like acquiring a skill to be able to win. Once the tubes arrive in my possession, they are retested and put in white, tube boxes. All of this is more time and money.
> 
> I treat people as fair as I can. Usually a lot better than the online stores. When I price a tube, I need to make something off of it. Please don't expect me to sell you tubes at the same price I paid. My advice to you is to win your own tubes on EBAY. Then, without a tester, you still don't know what you have won. If you think you can believe the seller...good luck, there are only a handful of honest one's. I send tubes back all of the time. Gas, shorted or weak. The tester weeds them out.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, but you got to agree that selling something without making a profit is not a very wise business practice unless you are having a garage sale.



That would be idiotic! 

The prices I've paid for tested tubes from Marty have been way under the online retailers that are selling the same NOS. If you don't believe me check for yourselves. No issues I might add. Personally I wouldn't buy off evilbay without owning a tube tester. Sorry to say there are too many rip offs and I'm not naive to it.

Buy them tubes already! If you don't others will.


----------



## slowhand

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's getting close to Christmas and I have been fielding a lot of questions via the PM system. I've also been asked about tubes I have for sale. Some people have watched, followed, or bid on some of the same listing that I did. This is to include the 40 or so Philips tubes I won. Certain people knew what I paid for them and then asked me to sell them some "at the price I got them for." Of course I couldn't do this and when I submitted a price, it was like I offended them.
> 
> My time is valuable. You don't win tubes on EBAY watching TV. It is almost like acquiring a skill to be able to win. Once the tubes arrive in my possession, they are retested and put in white, tube boxes. All of this is more time and money.
> 
> I treat people as fair as I can. Usually a lot better than the online stores. When I price a tube, I need to make something off of it. Please don't expect me to sell you tubes at the same price I paid. My advice to you is to win your own tubes on EBAY. Then, without a tester, you still don't know what you have won. If you think you can believe the seller...good luck, there are only a handful of honest one's. I send tubes back all of the time. Gas, shorted or weak. The tester weeds them out.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, but you got to agree that selling something without making a profit is not a very wise business practice unless you are having a garage sale.




I think this will level set expectations of those people. As long as everyone is aware that you test, put your time in it, name behind it and then resale, it should not be a big deal. Big name outfits do this all the time, perhaps GT?


----------



## RiverRatt

slowhand said:


> I think this will level set expectations of those people. As long as everyone is aware that you test, put your time in it, name behind it and then resale, it should not be a big deal. Big name outfits do this all the time, perhaps GT?



Ooooooohhhhh, you said the GT word. 

Marty, maybe you should come up with your own rebranding logo, like MT or something. I can design a logo for you, but I don't know how to silk screen.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Yeah it was the preamp tubes. What could cause them to completely fail?



Well it could be several things that could make them go down like that. One, the heater filament broke, or it failed. No heat, no signal. Second would be a short. Preamp tubes are held together with mica spacers. Some tubes can make it through the initial testing, but then fail in actual use. Some parts in a tube are only a few hundredths of an inch apart. Vibration or just putting the tube in a socket can cause the parts to touch. Another way is as the parts inside of a tube heat up, they grow from expansion. This will cause a short to occur.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty,
As usual, thank you for the info...I also thought they were Chinese. I'm going to try the Ei tubes I got from ebay($30 shipped for 3) and see how they sound.
Serge


----------



## solarburn

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Marty,
> As usual, thank you for the info...I also thought they were Chinese. I'm going to try the Ei tubes I got from ebay($30 shipped for 3) and see how they sound.
> Serge



Interested in what you think of the EI's.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ooooooohhhhh, you said the GT word.
> 
> Marty, maybe you should come up with your own rebranding logo, like MT or something. I can design a logo for you, but I don't know how to silk screen.



I already gave his tubes a brand...

Martimus Maximus Tubes.


----------



## thrawn86

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I already gave his tubes a brand...
> 
> Martimus Maximus Tubes.



Ahh, that's right!!
Totally hear you Marty. Can't give stuff away.


----------



## solarburn

Alan where did you get the Realistic 12AX7's?


----------



## ken361

*Re: It's Time To Play "What are these Preamp Tubes?"*



30stringsandblackdog said:


> Absolutely no markings; these are the ones that came in the Marshall SL..they are V1 and V2; V3 is a Chinese tube.
> Any ideas? Thanks...Serge



jj/mesa tube, same thing


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alan where did you get the Realistic 12AX7's?



That was one of my better scores. I did a broad search for anything 12AX7 and Japanese, and found those babies. I could see in the picture that they had the Philips seam in the top so I knew they were Matsushitas. No one else even bid on them! I found a thread on another forum where some guys were talking about them. They had them pretty much nailed down to 1958 production, with the square 45˚ getter.
 
Crank them up if you get a chance. They sound really good at volume. 

Audio Tubes 3ea 12AX7 Realistic Japan Tested Good


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That was one of my better scores. I did a broad search for anything 12AX7 and Japanese, and found those babies. I could see in the picture that they had the Philips seam in the top so I knew they were Matsushitas. No one else even bid on them! I found a thread on another forum where some guys were talking about them. They had them pretty much nailed down to 1958 production, with the square 45˚ getter.
> 
> Crank them up if you get a chance. They sound really good at volume.
> 
> Audio Tubes 3ea 12AX7 Realistic Japan Tested Good



Thanx Alan. Yeah they are contenders for V1 for sure. Great tube! Would absolutely use. Mixes very well with the BP in V2.


----------



## rockinr0ll

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it could be several things that could make them go down like that. One, the heater filament broke, or it failed. No heat, no signal. Second would be a short. Preamp tubes are held together with mica spacers. Some tubes can make it through the initial testing, but then fail in actual use. Some parts in a tube are only a few hundredths of an inch apart. Vibration or just putting the tube in a socket can cause the parts to touch. Another way is as the parts inside of a tube heat up, they grow from expansion. This will cause a short to occur.



Is it common for vibration on the cab to rattle and cause failure? The preamp tubes seem to short right when I'm about to get "the sound". I mean it really sounds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the tubes quits working, it is like what I said. If the tube continues to work, but sounds like shit, that's microphonic. A tube can also be microphonic with an intermittent short. Those go in the trash, even if it says Mullard on it.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's getting close to Christmas and I have been fielding a lot of questions via the PM system. I've also been asked about tubes I have for sale. Some people have watched, followed, or bid on some of the same listing that I did. This is to include the 40 or so Philips tubes I won. Certain people knew what I paid for them and then asked me to sell them some "at the price I got them for." Of course I couldn't do this and when I submitted a price, it was like I offended them.
> 
> My time is valuable. You don't win tubes on EBAY watching TV. It is almost like acquiring a skill to be able to win. Once the tubes arrive in my possession, they are retested and put in white, tube boxes. All of this is more time and money.
> 
> I treat people as fair as I can. Usually a lot better than the online stores. When I price a tube, I need to make something off of it. Please don't expect me to sell you tubes at the same price I paid. My advice to you is to win your own tubes on EBAY. Then, without a tester, you still don't know what you have won. If you think you can believe the seller...good luck, there are only a handful of honest one's. I send tubes back all of the time. Gas, shorted or weak. The tester weeds them out.
> 
> I'm not trying to be an ass, but you got to agree that selling something without making a profit is not a very wise business practice unless you are having a garage sale.



Quoted for truth, I have recently been buying valves that are claimed to be as good as new on thier testers, and this may well be the case but what most dont tell you is if they have some kind of popping/clicking or windy type thing happening when they are installed in a guitar amp and used.
I had this with the Vlavos i just bought (am still waiting the replacement) and the 2 phillips miniwatts i also just got and have had time to test properly. Its a bloody shame as all these valves sound fantastic, but i cant use them as they may crap out on me at any time, plus i cant be doing with ugly ruslting sounds coming through at random intervals.
The problem is that the seller i bought the miniwatts from has a no returns policy, but as he claimed they were testing as strong as new i had no reason to think that they would be unusable.
So if you buy from Ebay and even if they are tested you still have to be weary of the fact that may still not be usuable in your amp. I pretty bummed about this as i dont have money to throw away but in this case i will have to just swallow the cost and learn from it. Given that i PM'ed Marty a few days ago and he gave me a good price on 2 valves that should replace the 2 i got burned on and will hopefully give me what i am looking for, a reliable valve with a great sound. 
Incidentally im running a Brimar in V1 with an RFT in V2 and GE in V3 and Sylavania in V4 and its sounding great, but not as nice as when i had the Philips in V1 and the Valvo in V2 , sigh!


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a few old tubes that I'm hanging onto that do the white noise thing. They all sound OK once they get warmed up good. There's no reason not to use them if they still have some life, as long as they don't have a short or a leak. Just keep a good supply of spares on-hand. I would be pissed if a tube I just bought was acting like that, though. I don't have a tester, so there are maybe three people I'll buy premium tubes from. You know one of them, and the other two are eBay sellers I've used enough to trust, and they are good about returns, too.


----------



## Procter2812

Finally got myself a good Telefunken!

I can see why you guys like these babys! NICEEEE


----------



## rockinr0ll

Sweet. Warm or bright?


----------



## rockinr0ll

What do you all think of the Sovtek WXT+? I own 2 and I always thought it was too trebely... but I started popping them in again and with jumped channels it's not as bad. Opinions?


----------



## Procter2812

rockinr0ll said:


> Sweet. Warm or bright?



Pretty warm.

Its a bit smoother than the Mullard... but i prefer the mullard's gain range. Might be the age of the valve... 

But the mullard is definitely more raunchy sounding


----------



## MartyStrat54

A tube can become microphonic at any time. You don't want it to, but you can't stop it once it starts to happen. It's just something we take for granted, that our tubes are going to work right everyday. Now I will say that a high quality tube has a lot less chance of being microphonic. If it's 45 years old and not making any unwanted noises, there's a damn good chance that the tube will be solid until the day that it is finally spent.


----------



## janarn

I just bought 3 NOS Mullard 12ax7 for my Plexi.
They have a 3 digit code, and that makes me belive that they are from '59.
Will they be good tubes in a Plexi?


----------



## Procter2812

janarn said:


> I just bought 3 NOS Mullard 12ax7 for my Plexi.
> They have a 3 digit code, and that makes me belive that they are from '59.
> Will they be good tubes in a Plexi?



Ohhhh yeah. That beast will sound like heaven!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Excellent choice. All the old Marshall's used Mullard's BTW. The only thing I can suggest is that you swap them around and see which one sounds the best in V1. 

Another thing is that you could save the other two Mullard's as spares and use a cheaper NOS or current production tube for V2 and V3. The V1 slot on your amp is the only gain stage. The other two slots do not affect tone that much. It is up to you, but I would get some Sylvania's, GE's or Westinghouse tubes for V2 and V3.

However, there is nothing wrong with running Mullard's in all three slots.


----------



## janarn

I also bought two Sylvania 12ax7 "made in USA" "ahc" "024" that was half the price of the Mullards.
I bought them for my Fender amps.
So I have 3 NOS Mullards from '59, and one Mullard from '69,
and four NOS Brimar 12ax7.
And I also bought 2 NOS RCA 12ay7 7552 to use, if I want to get less gain from one of the amps

I also have these preamp tubes in two of my amps.
My old Deluxe Reverb has old RCA and Sylvania preamp tubes in all 6 positions,
and my VOX has NOS Brimar in all 6 positions.
The Super Reverb is coming next week, so I don't know what preamp tubes that's in it.

What is a good arrangement for my preamp tubes?
Amps:
'67 Plexi
'65 Deluxe Reverb
'65 Super Reverb
'66 Vox AC30


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> Pretty warm.
> 
> Its a bit smoother than the Mullard... but i prefer the mullard's gain range. Might be the age of the valve...
> 
> But the mullard is definitely more raunchy sounding



Welcome to the club baby!

I have plopped my RFT, BP and now a Realistic(Matsushitas)in V1 all of which have more gain. After demoing these and then going back to the Telefunken man I just love the tone and feel of that Tele mixed in with my BP in V2. I get plenty of saturation but it is articulate and fat along with that smooth round dynamic to it. Also when you dig in it has bite when soloing which is what I really love about how it acts. The notes sing.

Now these other tubes are great in V1 and I would use them in a heart beat but there is something special I really like about how that Telefunken sits in the mix.

Alan and I did some trad'n and I get to keep that Realistic 12Ax7. Reminds me of my Mullard only I like the Realistic more. Its quite a bit different than the character or personality of the Telefunken. This tube has some hair on it and not in a bad way. Generous amount of gain yet has these nice tendencies when rolling off the guitar volume. I here thick lower mids on it and it sounds nice when taken a lil' volume off it. Great for Raunch & Roll(Heavy metal blues). 

I think its a great tube for a Marshall just like the Mullard is. Happy to have it in my collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

Glad you're diggin' it, dude. I meant to ask you if the pins were really tight in your amp? I have a helluva time with those Matsushitas in mine. I was afraid I was going to break them they were so tight.

I'm getting really interested in another oddball Philips-made tube. There was a company called BEL (Bharat Electronics Limited) in India that was about the same as the Matsushita tubes. They were made on Philips equipment, they have the pinched top, and are said to out-Mullard a Mullard. They seem to go pretty high when they show up on eBay.

I know what you mean about the Telefunken. It's like nose-candy for a Marshall. The tone of my amp just comes alive, especially with the Raytheon in V2. You can't use one without the other.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I made mention of the BEL tubes when referring to Philips brands. I have yet to snag any and when they come up on EBAY it has always been an overseas seller. Yuck on that. A real pain if one of the tubes comes up bad.

Boy Philips was just massive. That means more of their tubes are out there to be had.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Glad you're diggin' it, dude. I meant to ask you if the pins were really tight in your amp? I have a helluva time with those Matsushitas in mine. I was afraid I was going to break them they were so tight.
> 
> I'm getting really interested in another oddball Philips-made tube. There was a company called BEL (Bharat Electronics Limited) in India that was about the same as the Matsushita tubes. They were made on Philips equipment, they have the pinched top, and are said to out-Mullard a Mullard. They seem to go pretty high when they show up on eBay.
> 
> I know what you mean about the Telefunken. It's like nose-candy for a Marshall. The tone of my amp just comes alive, especially with the Raytheon in V2. You can't use one without the other.



The Realistic went in fine. Mine's prolly loose from be'n penetrated so many times by so many different tubes. Now one of the Tele's Marty sent me went in hard like what you are saying. It was the smooth plate Tele that tested real strong and had a yellow tip. I thought I was going to have to lube the pins hehe.

Yeah that BEL sounds like it could be fun. Are they more expensive than a Brimar? Those usually go for a $100 a piece at my online retailer. Like to try one of those these days. I wouldn't mind having a couple of the Realistics in my stash. That was a pleasant surprise! Keep me posted if you find any that are good.

I've got the tubes boxed up and should be able to mail tomorrow.

Besides yours:
1.RFT ECC83-Actually this is yours.
2.RB'd Telefunken
3.34L's


----------



## solarburn

Here are a couple of RFT ECC83's:









The "n"stands for NUCLEAR powered! Watch out for fallout after firing this biatch up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I'm getting closer to determining whether or not Telefunken made EL34's. I sent an email to a German tube seller and his response was they were all made by RFT.

I just saw a set of 4 Telefunken's go for over $250. They're RFT's. You can get 4 new ones for $199. Some poor dumb ass is telling all of his friends about his Telefunkens. Hopefully one of them will tell him they're RFT's.

Just like the twerp who insisted that his 6CA7's were RCA's. They were Sylvania's. Sylvania and GE were the only two who made a 6CA7. This guy was not a tube person. "Relabled?" What's that mean. Yeah, right.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I'm getting closer to determining whether or not Telefunken made EL34's. I sent an email to a German tube seller and his response was they were all made by RFT.
> 
> I just saw a set of 4 Telefunken's go for over $250. They're RFT's. You can get 4 new ones for $199. Some poor dumb ass is telling all of his friends about his Telefunkens. Hopefully one of them will tell him they're RFT's.
> 
> Just like the twerp who insisted that his 6CA7's were RCA's. They were Sylvania's. Sylvania and GE were the only two who made a 6CA7. This guy was not a tube person. "Relabled?" What's that mean. Yeah, right.



Wouldn't you love to see the look on his face?

Well if its any consolation at least they should sound good...


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well hush my mouth. Guess what? I couldnt sleep so decided to give them Valvos and Philips tubes one more chance, im an eternal optimist So there i was a 5 in the morning (i aint playing it just cranking the gains and master and swapping between channels periodically) plugging in valves and listening for the dreaded rustling sounds and i get around to trying all my preamp valves in V1 and gues what they all did it! This aint right i thinks, so i swap out the V2 with a tube i think is ok amd again, its doing the rustle shuffle. Hmm i says, something not right here, so i pull all the valves and start with some of the no name valves of unknown origin in V3 and V4 and then 2 NOS RFTs in V1 and V2, and its as quite as a mouse.
Aha! So it looks like one of my NOS american valves in either V3 or V4 was the culprit all along, so i run the V1 slot with the Valvo (one valvo is definitley up the spout), philips etc and they all run fine, well so far anyways am still mid experiment. So once again a newbie learns that things are not always what they seem.


----------



## solarburn

Good job man!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wouldn't you love to see the look on his face?
> 
> Well if its any consolation at least they should sound good...



He's going to feel better than the poor sucker who buys these:

MATCHED/BALANCED 12AX7 TUBES-BEST I'VE HEARD-NO KIDDING


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> He's going to feel better than the poor sucker who buys these:
> 
> MATCHED/BALANCED 12AX7 TUBES-BEST I'VE HEARD-NO KIDDING



What a shyster!


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What a shyster!



A-hole! he had those up since summer, I emailed him and said WTF!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Picked this up today, only cost £5, did i get ripped off or grab a bargain?


----------



## RiverRatt

That's an RFT and a good price! If it had been a real French Mazda, it would be worth lots more, though. I'd love to find one, but they are scarce here.

nos mazda ecc83-12ax7 (france)


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> That's an RFT and a good price! If it had been a real French Mazda, it would be worth lots more, though. I'd love to find one, but they are scarce here.
> 
> nos mazda ecc83-12ax7 (france)




Thanks for the information, incidentally how can you tell its an RFT?


----------



## RiverRatt

The plates are a dead giveaway. RFT is the only company that used short, offset plates with 3 holes. The only tube I've ever seen that looks close is old USA short plate Raytheons, but they don't have holes like that. Here's one from my stash.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the Raytheon. They are similar, but the RFT has a larger bottle and the top of the tube is flatter.

Raytheon 12AT7 1961- USA


----------



## Rev-al

Mind if I jump in Martystrat54 ?
I've recently been learning much, and with great interest about 12AX7 ECC83 valves and I have now aquired 3.
Amperex (not bugleboy)
Raytheon black plate
Telefunken
I do not know the 'quality' of these valves however.
Would you suggest which positions they would suit best in my TSL122, in order to improve it's sound, in your opinion ? 
(and also would they be ok for my JMP 50)

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge - it is appreciated greatly


----------



## RiverRatt

Rev-al, jump in whenever you want. For a TSL, try the Raytheon in V2 and the Amperex and the Tele in V1. For the JMP, the only slot you need to try is V1. Any of the three will sound great there. It's hard to say which combination you'll like the best. They are all excellent tone tubes.


----------



## skeezix

Okay.... this made me choke on my beer:
REALISTIC 12AX7A O GETTER VINTAGE ELECT TUBE GOLD LEAD - eBay (item 360147278214 end time Jan-09-10 20:15:16 PST)

_$168 a pair...????? wtf?_
Geez.

By the way... I never did thank you guys for the tube info way back when



- for which I now humbly acknowledge and apologize.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> He's going to feel better than the poor sucker who buys these:
> 
> MATCHED/BALANCED 12AX7 TUBES-BEST I'VE HEARD-NO KIDDING



This guy quacks like a duck and walks like a duck...he's a duck.

He has been on EBAY for ages. 

"Oh you just can't believe the sound of these tubes." This is a one in a million batch that he got a hold of. "Yeah, yeah. Other Sovtek tubes sound like cardboard, but not this special batch. They're magical."

I dunno. I really feel for the morons that bite into that crock of shit. I wish he would get off of EBAY, but that ain't gonna happen. He's too busy selling the magical Sovtek LPS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The plates are a dead giveaway. RFT is the only company that used short, offset plates with 3 holes. The only tube I've ever seen that looks close is old USA short plate Raytheons, but they don't have holes like that.








The exception is when RFT made ECC83's for Telefunken. Joe tried these out and said they weren't the same as a real Tele. However, I find them to be an acceptable tube. Smooth plates only. RFT did not make a ribbed version of the Tele. The only way to tell them apart is the slight variation of the plate design and no <> on the bottom of the tube. It will fool 80 per cent of the buyers out there.

Notice the slot on the very bottom of the plate on the real Tele and the RFT has the "ears" folded to the outside of the plate. Real Tele on the left and RFT on the right.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

*On Floridians, NGD, and winter break*

Hey, the guy is from Miami, what do you expect! Having lived in beautiful South Florida for many years, I can tell you that is has more crooks, fake doctors, dentists, and other assorted "medical professionals", ponzi scheming bankers, etc per square inch than any other state!
today was NGD for me; a 2002 Gibson CS-336...








and last but not least, IT'S WINTER BREAK!!! NO MORE 131 DAR STUDENTS UNTIL JAN 4TH


----------



## MartyStrat54

skeezix said:


> Okay.... this made me choke on my beer:
> REALISTIC 12AX7A O GETTER VINTAGE ELECT TUBE GOLD LEAD - eBay (item 360147278214 end time Jan-09-10 20:15:16 PST)
> 
> _$168 a pair...????? wtf?_
> Geez.



Well that's what he is asking. Like many listings I follow, there will be no bids. Those tubes are worth maybe $45 for the pair. He's pricing them like NIB Mullards. He's living in a fantasy...only a fool would buy them. You know, like the people who buy the magical sounding Sovtek LPS's.


----------



## solarburn

But the perty gold pins on it.

They're magical...


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Aha! So it looks like one of my NOS american valves in either V3 or V4 was the culprit all along, so i run the V1 slot with the Valvo (one valvo is definitley up the spout), philips etc and they all run fine, well so far anyways am still mid experiment. So once again a newbie learns that things are not always what they seem.



Yeah, sometimes you got to do a little rolling to find the problem. Even an NOS tube can be bad (Just don't say that very loud). I'm glad you found the culprit and now you should be able to find out which one works the best in V1.

As stated here before and this is based on the model of the amp, you want to make sure your non gain tubes are solid before trying to pick a V1 or a V1 and V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rev-al said:


> Mind if I jump in Martystrat54 ?
> I've recently been learning much, and with great interest about 12AX7 ECC83 valves and I have now aquired 3.
> Amperex (not bugleboy)
> Raytheon black plate
> Telefunken
> I do not know the 'quality' of these valves however.
> Would you suggest which positions they would suit best in my TSL122, in order to improve it's sound, in your opinion ?
> (and also would they be ok for my JMP 50)
> 
> Many thanks for sharing your knowledge - it is appreciated greatly



Welcome sir...love to have ya here on the thread. Alan (River Ratt) pretty much pinned it out. You have some great tubes to begin with and you should be able to take care of both amps. 99 per cent of the "minds" here will say go with the Tele in V1 and the Raytheon BP in V2. You can't go wrong with this setup. That leaves the Amperex for V1 in the JMP50.

You can use solid current production tubes for all of the non gain slots, or try and find yourself some Sylvania, GE or Westinghouse tubes for the non critical slots.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I keep looking at all these preamps on ebay...so many tubes, so many choices. Like you've said in the past, guys, it's hard to know what you are getting...everyone uses a different tester, everyone gives different values (ALL 100%, of course!). I find it somewhat frustrating trying to compare apples to apples; it's usually apples to vise grips! Marty, when I grow up, I want to be like you...a tube guru!


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> I keep looking at all these preamps on ebay...so many tubes, so many choices. Like you've said in the past, guys, it's hard to know what you are getting...everyone uses a different tester, everyone gives different values (ALL 100%, of course!). I find it somewhat frustrating trying to compare apples to apples; it's usually apples to vise grips! Marty, when I grow up, I want to be like you...a tube guru!



It can be tough weeding through all of the listings. I've found that the single and two tube listings are not feasible for me. They may be for someone who is just looking for a couple of tubes. I like the listings of a minimum of four, but eight to twelve is good. I've found the casual buyer stays away from these auctions. Sure, you may pay $240 for eight tubes, but that's only $30 a piece and that's a bargain if they are Mullard's, Amperex, or Telefunken's.

And it does take some studying to decipher all of the various tube testers. They made dozens of different makes and models. Instead of trying to put it all down in a post, I have an open invitation to anyone here to send me the EBAY link of any tube you are interested in and I will give you my thoughts on it. That's the best way, because I can read the listing, any test results and what kind of tester and then get back to you. See? Nice and quick.

Oh, BTW...being a tube guru doesn't pay well, but you meet a lot of great people with the same passion for old glass and that's what make's it worth it to me.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Very cool Marty.
I've been watching these for a while
Brimar B.V.A. ECC83 12AX7 NOS TEST Matching Tubes Quad - eBay (item 230383009967 end time Dec-28-09 18:56:38 PST)

Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 - Black Plates - Test NOS - eBay (item 250542226734 end time Jan-02-10 14:34:24 PST)

quad (4) Valvo / Mullard ECC83 , ( 12AX7 ) I61 - B2J5 - eBay (item 290381485036 end time Dec-19-09 08:32:19 PST)

QUAD VALVO ECC83 12 AX 7 TESTED AUDIO TUBES ECC 83 - eBay (item 250550901051 end time Dec-25-09 16:40:04 PST)


----------



## solarburn

Nice shinny silvery tops describes the first ones. How about chrome tops hehe.

The BP in the pic looks like a grey plate...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Brimars look like a good buy. Your paying a little over $40 a tube. The readings are on a TV7. He has converted the readings and that's okay, he seems like he is an honest seller per his feedback score.

The single Raytheon is from a great guy and I have bought a lot of tubes from him. He uses a cheap tester, but I've never gotten a bad tube off of him.

The first quad of Valvo's the seller is being very honest (or had to be) due to the Mullard production numbers on the tube. The main thing is these aren't Valvo's, they're Mullard's. 

The last quad of Valvo's the guy is using an emissions tester. They tend to read higher values. I'm not saying the tubes are bad, but if tested on a mutual conductance tester, the scores would probably be down 6 to 10 points.

With the two American sellers, you can return. With the two overseas sellers, you get what they send you. Now on EBAY, the overseas guys want to keep good feedback, so they aren't out to "intentionally" screw you. The problem is say one of the tubes doesn't work? There is nothing you can do except leave negative feedback and the seller will just counter that with additional comments stating the tubes were tested and good.

The Mullard Valvo's are worth (to me) about $40 to $43 per tube. I can get real Mullard's for that or less and these are Mullard's. Sort of like the RFT Telefunken. It says Telefunken, but it's an RFT.

The BIN Valvo's, I enlarged the picture and it looks a lot like a Mullard. They could be real, but his price is low and he has them testing like new. This one is a little suspicious.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Brimars look like a good buy. Your paying a little over $40 a tube. The readings are on a TV7. He has converted the readings and that's okay, he seems like he is an honest seller per his feedback score.
> 
> The single Raytheon is from a great guy and I have bought a lot of tubes from him. He uses a cheap tester, but I've never gotten a bad tube off of him.
> 
> The first quad of Valvo's the seller is being very honest (or had to be) due to the Mullard production numbers on the tube. The main thing is these aren't Valvo's, they're Mullard's.
> 
> The last quad of Valvo's the guy is using an emissions tester. They tend to read higher values. I'm not saying the tubes are bad, but if tested on a mutual conductance tester, the scores would probably be down 6 to 10 points.
> 
> With the two American sellers, you can return. With the two overseas sellers, you get what they send you. Now on EBAY, the overseas guys want to keep good feedback, so they aren't out to "intentionally" screw you. The problem is say one of the tubes doesn't work? There is nothing you can do except leave negative feedback and the seller will just counter that with additional comments stating the tubes were tested and good.
> 
> The Mullard Valvo's are worth (to me) about $40 to $43 per tube. I can get real Mullard's for that or less and these are Mullard's. Sort of like the RFT Telefunken. It says Telefunken, but it's an RFT.
> 
> The BIN Valvo's, I enlarged the picture and it looks a lot like a Mullard. They could be real, but his price is low and he has them testing like new. This one is a little suspicious.




This is the kind of information that is just invaluable, i looked at the last lot of valvos and thought they looked like a good buy, but given all the points you raise they are actually to many doubts raised to make the commitment to buy. Im a learnin.

Right been a rollin the tubes today, and i have arrived at the Valvo in V1 and the miniwatt in V2, gives a fantastic lively clean, single notes sound very musical and chords are full and virbrant. On overdrive 1 i get plenty of crisp definition and bags of drive and a tone that just makes want to dig and play and play. Overdrive 2 is more of the same, sounding very big but still not getting flabby or muddy.
I also had the RFT in V2 and this was very similar except it was more middy, but still razor sharp, but i found i just plumped for the philips for now. So i need to find myself some more valvos, i have the replacement coming for the crackling poppy one i got (i hope), and get my self some more philips to pop into V2 when this one has given up the ghost. I have enquired about a couple from Marty, and I have my eye on a couple of others.
For some insane reason i just cant stop thinking about valves (even been dreaming about them a lot recently) and getting more and more of them even though i already have more than enough to last a good few years, what up with that?


----------



## racko7566

I think we need to start a tubes Anonymous thread and meet once a week.


----------



## wegman

racko7566 said:


> I think we need to start a tubes Anonymous thread and meet once a week.



Hi my name is John (group "HI John) and I have a tube problem. 

I have been diagnosed with T.A.S. (Tube Aquisition Syndrome)


----------



## racko7566

So John, I'd like to start of the questions with... How many times a week do you find yourself rolling? And do you roll socially, or do you roll alone?


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The Realistic went in fine. Mine's prolly loose from be'n penetrated so many times by so many different tubes. Now one of the Tele's Marty sent me went in hard like what you are saying. It was the smooth plate Tele that tested real strong and had a yellow tip. I thought I was going to have to lube the pins hehe.
> 
> Yeah that BEL sounds like it could be fun. Are they more expensive than a Brimar? Those usually go for a $100 a piece at my online retailer. Like to try one of those these days. I wouldn't mind having a couple of the Realistics in my stash. That was a pleasant surprise! Keep me posted if you find any that are good.
> 
> I've got the tubes boxed up and should be able to mail tomorrow.
> 
> Besides yours:
> 1.RFT ECC83-Actually this is yours.
> 2.RB'd Telefunken
> 3.34L's



hey solar what are some good clean sounding PI tubes? I have some stock chinese one in there now, also a re issue mullard that sounds pretty good and some penta m tubes but not sure what I like yet maybe some NOS


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> hey solar what are some good clean sounding PI tubes? I have some stock chinese one in there now, also a re issue mullard that sounds pretty good and some penta m tubes but not sure what I like yet maybe some NOS



The Mullard RI, LPS, Tung Sol as far as CP tubes. I've tried these. Haven't tried an EH in the PI. I would use any of those.

For NOS I'd try your RFT just to see. I thought it would be a waste there but ended up liking it. I have extras though. An RCA12AX7A or a RCA 7025, GE & Magnavox. You could put an AT7 in the PI as well. It won't drive the power tubes as hard but it will handle high current and is what I would consider a clean sounding tube. Any of these. I wouldn't waste a Tele, BP etc in that position unless I had a few to play with. I might sample them in there but leaving those kind of V1/V2 tubes in that slot is a waste otherwise.

I just like a solid tube in that position. You have to roll them a bit to pick up the sound changes between them. I think a nice strong neutral tube is a safe bet. The reason I use the RFT is I want to warm up the red channel as much as I can so I use tubes that have those character traits. That was the idea. After trying it I think it helped.


----------



## ken361

i tried the rft but i dont think its that good anymore, my tech said it was noisey and when i checked and plucked the string it wasnt ringing too clear. what i do is turn the amp up real loud and find what sounds best, you know some tubes sounds muddy or too bassy not as clear when the distortion is on. i like a smooth pick attack.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> i tried the rft but i dont think its that good anymore, my tech said it was noisey and when i checked and plucked the string it wasnt ringing too clear. what i do is turn the amp up real loud and find what sounds best, you know some tubes sounds muddy or too bassy not as clear when the distortion is on. i like a smooth pick attack.



Yeah it sounds like the RFT isn't good anymore. You want a smooth pic attack? Get me up to speed here. You have 5 preamp tubes. What's your line up now? 

I have to think about this. I thought the Mullard RI was smooth yet articulate(good note separation). To me its a lower gain AX7 compared to others I have.

I tweaked my PI last of all. Are you sure you have got what you want out of the other slots and are happy with it? The reason I say that is you might be able to adjust in the other slots for getting that smooth pick attack. I know what tube I'd use for that too but it wouldn't be going in the PI slot. 

My advice would be to just pick solid tubes you like, nothing fancy and roll them in the PI to see what you like best. It may take awhile. It did me and heck even now I still roll that slot to see if my ears have changed or the tube has. The other slots in mine are pretty cemented as to what I want there. Real happy with the Tele/BP combo. Right now I have a Matsushita(Realistic) in V1 and it is very cool. Not as cool as the Tele but I like it just the same.

Have you ever tried an AT7 in the PI before? I'm thinking clear and smooth when in the PI. I don't think you will get any cleaner than it. I like the Mullard CV4024 the best but the Jan is good too. I see that Penta has one too. Never tried it. I like em' in V1 as well but only when I am playing low gain stuff. Otherwise I'd rather use a 12AX7 and roll off guitar volume for those lower gain textures.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are wanting to go the 12AT7 route for a PI, that will compress your signal to the power tubes. Some people like that effect. However, I think it is best to get the signal smaller in the front end so that you can still use a 12AX7 for the PI. This would entail using say a triple mica JAN 5751 in V1 and a medium hot gain 12AX7 in V2. This will change your Clean Channel and you will still get some crunch when you turn the gain up. 

There is always going to be compromises with a tube line up. It basically has to be designed around your playing style. I have set up amps with a borderline high gain in V1 and a very high gain in V2. This sort of amp, once turned up becomes a harmonic generating machine. Perfect for the guitarist that wants the super high gain and knows how to control it. 

Me? Well some of my amps are higher gain than others, but I don't go to the extreme of two high gains in V1 and V2. I had a guy PM me looking for advice on a pair of 12BZ7's. I gave him my advice and he got the tubes and put both of them into his amp. He told me if it was above 4 it would just squeal and howl. Then after about three weeks he went to running just one in V2 and it ended up failing. Based on this and other tests, there is something about a BZ7 that a Marshall amp doesn't like. They tend to go bad.

When you hear me describe tubes, I go by my tester. 22-22 is a nominal new tube. Transposed it is about 80 to 85 per cent. 30-30 is just eight points higher, but it denotes a high gain tube of say 105-105.

I've bumped my V1 from 25-25 to 27-27 and then the V2 is anything from 29-29 to 32-32. Going past 32, the tube has a tendency to distort the gain stage. Basically 27-27 to 29-29 are what I call tweener tubes. They can be used in V1 or V2, especially if you are looking for more agressive sound. This range of tubes also work well in three tube preamps where you want a little hair on your only gain tube.

Now I have tubes that are 22-23 or 24-22 and they make fine V1's and you can take these lower tubes and bump them with a 30-30 or so in V2.

It's imperative that you know the age and condition of the tubes you are using or your rolling experience will suck. If you don't know the condition, I would say put them in a drawer and start with some new tubes. I would get some Tung-Sol's and a Mullard RI and then I would try and get at least a NOS V1. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Hell a GE short Black Plate is a pretty good sounding tube and they go for $20-25 on EBAY. The trick is at least getting the NOS in V1. Then you could run a Tung-Sol and then try the leftover tubes to see what sounds best. The main thing is to get your non gain tubes slots nailed down. This makes rolling the tone tubes easier and faster. It's imperative that the tone stack/cathode follower and PI have good tubes.

There are many options for the PI. It can take about anything. However, I have tested this slot and I use tubes that are like 33-35 in the PI. In this application, there isn't any circuit distortion. The PI seems happy with high gain tubes, so that is what I run in that slot.

The tone stack I usually run like a 27-28 tube. Doesn't need to be matched, as do none of the preamp tubes. 30-30 and 35-35 are just used as examples. I do have perfectly matched tubes, but many are off by one or two points. Still highly acceptable for use in a Marshall amp.

You may find that tube rolling can be time consuming and if you try to test to many, you will get ear fatigue. It's best to test two to four tube per session. I was happy with my tone running USA tubes and I had all of these other tubes and I never even cared about trying them out. They were for sale. Then I started trying them and it was like, "Good grief, these tubes are better...much better." 

In closing, there are many ways HI Fi nuts rate tubes. One of them is call noise floor and the other sound stage. I think that is what our ears are hearing to be able to determine a good tube. In V1, the tube will be quiet (low noise floor) and then the other is the ability to bring music to life and how it sounds (Sound Stage). You sort of have to get yourself in a mood to do this. Some of my tests involve listening to a tube in a tube Hi Fi. This is to check for microphonics. Tube rolling isn't something that you are good at right away. You have to acquire the tools needed to get the job done.

If you ever need advice on a purchase, don't hesitate to ask here. There are several guys that can give good advice.


----------



## RiverRatt

What kind of BZ7 was it, Marty? The two I have seem to do pretty well.


----------



## ken361

i have a baldwin/sylvania v1,v2 penta labs M mullard reissue(this is working well the high gain is pushing the v1 for a nice gain! v3 rca,v4 mullard,v5 chinese or the mullard RI


----------



## Stymie13

I have a question... I really appreciate all the experience in here and am wondering how much a balanced PI makes in a class A amp. I understand it won't make much difference in my DSL, but what about my Mesa Maverick? I know, this is the Marshall forum. But I really enjoy the comeraderie and helpful support here. Anyone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> What kind of BZ7 was it, Marty? The two I have seem to do pretty well.



They were both 1962 Westinghouse BZ7's. Of course, they had long plates.

If you remember, Joshua had BZ7's fail on him. These were several brands. I sent him one and it failed in like three days. I can't remember if it was an RCA or a Raytheon. Then I realized I had six, NOS Westinghouse BZ7's and I sent him one and it crapped out and then he bought a real old BZ7. Do you remember that? It was like a 1956 BZ7 and I think that one went bad as well.

I think Joshua's problem was a real long plate tube in a TSL122 combo. I think the vibration did them in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stymie13 said:


> I have a question... I really appreciate all the experience in here and am wondering how much a balanced PI makes in a class A amp. I understand it won't make much difference in my DSL, but what about my Mesa Maverick? I know, this is the Marshall forum. But I really enjoy the comeraderie and helpful support here. Anyone?



I don't think it needs to be perfect. I think you can get away with an unbalanced tube. If it was a Class A Hi Fi amp, I would say that it would be more important to try and keep the PI more balanced, but I've used unbalanced tubes in Class A guitar amps and it wasn't like it sounded any different. I have several amps that are Class A and I use unbalanced tubes in the PI.


----------



## Stymie13

Thanks Marty.


----------



## wegman

I am testing out posting pictures from photo bucket. Sorry for the inconvenience.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok chaps, im after a few vlaves for the V3 and V4 slots and came across this little lot, would be reasonable i thought, just need to know if the test values are in the right area?

Four 12AX7 Tubes GE Sylvania on eBay (end time 20-Dec-09 16:49:47 GMT)

found these NOS, they look pretty good

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-12ax7-Sylvania-Baldwin-Tubes-Matching-Tested-NOS_W0QQitemZ170421499208QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item27ade9b548

Also found these possibly for V1 or V2

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-12ax7A-Raytheon-Baldwin-Tubes-Black-Pl-Match_W0QQitemZ170418714823QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item27adbf38c7


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> They were both 1962 Westinghouse BZ7's. Of course, they had long plates.
> 
> If you remember, Joshua had BZ7's fail on him. These were several brands. I sent him one and it failed in like three days. I can't remember if it was an RCA or a Raytheon. Then I realized I had six, NOS Westinghouse BZ7's and I sent him one and it crapped out and then he bought a real old BZ7. Do you remember that? It was like a 1956 BZ7 and I think that one went bad as well.
> 
> I think Joshua's problem was a real long plate tube in a TSL122 combo. I think the vibration did them in.



I can understand that. Mine have done fine in the DSL head - I've never used them in a combo. The bottom mica on my GE/RCA was slanted a good bit when I got it. I was afraid it would be microphonic, but so far it's been quiet. 

I had a Matsushita crap out on me this weekend. It's not gone, but it makes a sound like someone wadding up a sheet of paper. Joe, I hope yours is OK. Let me know if it starts acting up. I think the bad one is the one that tested lowest. I was really airing out the Marshall this afternoon and my daughter noticed that our neighbor was on his four-wheeler beside our yard staring at the house. I quit playing and he left. Everyone's a critic.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Some other possibilities for me
5x NEW Old Stock Philips ECG JAN 5751 Tube 12AX7/ECC83 - eBay (item 110469873369 end time Dec-20-09 17:29:45 PST)

Trio NOS NIB Westinghouse Blackplate 12AX7 Audio Tubes! - eBay (item 370308831060 end time Dec-25-09 19:32:29 PST)


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I can understand that. Mine have done fine in the DSL head - I've never used them in a combo. The bottom mica on my GE/RCA was slanted a good bit when I got it. I was afraid it would be microphonic, but so far it's been quiet.
> 
> I had a Matsushita crap out on me this weekend. It's not gone, but it makes a sound like someone wadding up a sheet of paper. Joe, I hope yours is OK. Let me know if it starts acting up. I think the bad one is the one that tested lowest. I was really airing out the Marshall this afternoon and my daughter noticed that our neighbor was on his four-wheeler beside our yard staring at the house. I quit playing and he left. Everyone's a critic.





I've still got it in so we will see. How many hours(if hours)did you get out of it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The life cycle of a male Mayfly. Born>Fly>Eat>Mate>Die. Some tubes are like this and it sucks. I've been lucky with my inventory. I hired Groove Tube lab tech's to do additional testing and that's why my tubes are good. Yeah, Joe got one that met an early demise...but it did work for about two hours or so.

It is a crapshoot, isn't it? I mean how do you guarantee a 45 year old tube? You just hope that it is good and will stay good. I would hate to have a nice European tube and have it crap out on me after testing 29-27.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> i have a baldwin/sylvania v1,v2 penta labs M mullard reissue(this is working well the high gain is pushing the v1 for a nice gain! v3 rca,v4 mullard,v5 chinese or the mullard RI



Ok you have 1 NOS and it s in V1. The rest are Mullard RI's except when using the Chinese(this a Mullard too?) as well as having a Mullard too, in V5.

I really like what I get out of mine with the Tele and BP. I see and understand what you are getting out of the Mullards. See if Marty has another Tele and just change one at a time. Put it in V1 and slide the Sylvania over to V2. Have you ever used a Tung Sol AX7 and what did you think of it? Put it in V3 and V4 but 1 change at a time and then play to see.

Since you are checking these at volume for sure then what power tubes are you using? I have found that this is key too and has a definite impact on the overall tone and feel of the amp. 

Most of the time we concentrate our tone shaping from the preamp but since you are judging your tone at volume you have to include the power tubes contribution to that overall tone. Those 6CA7's gave me a whole different tone and feel paired with the same preamp tubes I used with some of my other power tubes. So my overall tone and feel changed for the better because of the power tubes.

Don't forget Marty's the Teacher, I'm a student. So use his insight! Plus he sells the tubes I use hehe. He knows his chit!

I think there is definitely things to try on yours and we can try to eliminate some tube choices for better ones to save time and money but the bottom line is it takes time to find the right ones for your ears in your amp.

I'm always game to help.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The life cycle of a male Mayfly. Born>Fly>Eat>Mate>Die. Some tubes are like this and it sucks. I've been lucky with my inventory. I hired Groove Tube lab tech's to do additional testing and that's why my tubes are good. Yeah, Joe got one that met an early demise...but it did work for about two hours or so.
> 
> It is a crapshoot, isn't it? I mean how do you guarantee a 45 year old tube? You just hope that it is good and will stay good. I would hate to have a nice European tube and have it crap out on me after testing 29-27.



Damn crapp'n tubes!

Don't they know I need the tonez?!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Ok chaps, im after a few vlaves for the V3 and V4 slots and came across this little lot, would be reasonable i thought, just need to know if the test values are in the right area?





> Four 12AX7 Tubes GE Sylvania on eBay (end time 20-Dec-09 16:49:47 GMT)



Yeah these would make great utility tubes, if not a solid V2. The test scores are good for a TV-7. 



> 2 - 12ax7 Sylvania Baldwin Tubes *Matching*Tested NOS* on eBay (end time 24-Dec-09 21:56:35 GMT)



Yeah, these are safe to buy. Medium to High Medium gain with the Hickok tester.



> 2 - 12ax7A Raytheon Baldwin Tubes Black Pl *Match* on eBay (end time 09-Jan-10 21:05:09 GMT)



Not a lot of info, but if they go cheap, they are a good buy. It always pays to have a couple of Black Plates for V1 or V2.


----------



## wegman

I was doing some rolling tonight when I noticed one of my tubes is different from the rest. It has what appears to be two seems in the top and round mica's (I hope that what they are called). It has no markings on it at all. It looks like a very solid built tube.

I am sorry I can't get a pic of it but does anyone know what it might be?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah these would make great utility tubes, if not a solid V2. The test scores are good for a TV-7.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, these are safe to buy. Medium to High Medium gain with the Hickok tester.
> 
> 
> 
> Not a lot of info, but if they go cheap, they are a good buy. It always pays to have a couple of Black Plates for V1 or V2.



Marty remember that speedo you sent me quite awhile ago, I didn't know what it was? I mentioned it recently. I do now. I'm looking at the Sylvania Baldwin and its a perfect match. I have the tube in hand cause I left it here next to the puter and thats it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Some other possibilities for me
> 5x NEW Old Stock Philips ECG JAN 5751 Tube 12AX7/ECC83 - eBay (item 110469873369 end time Dec-20-09 17:29:45 PST)



Ahh...several things here. You would have to pay overseas shipping and you can get the same tube for a nickle cheaper at Tube Depot.

5751 Tube Types

The second thing is these tubes may not sound that fantastic. These are EGC tubes made in the second half of the 80's. They were made to military specs for non audio applications and this is translated into a cardboard sound. Some of the earlier military WA's sound like a nice 12AX7A's. The regular triple mica's are great. I would stay away from these. 



> Trio NOS NIB Westinghouse Blackplate 12AX7 Audio Tubes! - eBay (item 370308831060 end time Dec-25-09 19:32:29 PST)



One word...Westinghouse. He makes reference to a Raytheon. Save your money and get some real RCA or Raytheon Black Plates. This is just a ridiculous price aimed at some nut who is going to go ga-ga over 1956 tubes. The seller offers no return of these fabulous tubes. What if one don't work?

Black Plate tip: Throughout my buying of tubes, the Raytheon hands down is the best Black Plate tube. When I get RCA's, they usually tend to test on the low end. However, the Raytheon's can test as either a V1 or V2 tube. If you look at an RCA and a Raytheon, the Raytheon looks so much better. If you want a Black Plate, make it a Raytheon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty remember that freebee tube you sent me quite awhile ago, I didn't know what it was? I mentioned it recently. I do now. I'm looking at the Sylvania Baldwin and its a perfect match. I have the tube in hand cause I left it here next to the puter and thats it.



You lost me Joe. I know I have sent you tubes. Hell, I sent you a pair of my shorts. What are you saying? I sent you a tube and you forgot what it is? I believe it was that time that Marty sent certain people some V3, V4 tubes. Does that sound right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> I was doing some rolling tonight when I noticed one of my tubes is different from the rest. It has what appears to be two seems in the top and round mica's (I hope that what they are called). It has no markings on it at all. It looks like a very solid built tube.
> 
> I am sorry I can't get a pic of it but does anyone know what it might be?



You may have a Mullard. Is it labeled RCA? Mullard made a lot of tubes for RCA. I buy as many of those as I can. They sound great...if it has some life left to it. I can't be held responsible for suck ass tubes with no life left in them.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> You may have a Mullard. Is it labeled RCA? Mullard made a lot of tubes for RCA. I buy as many of those as I can. They sound great...if it has some life left to it. I can't be held responsible for suck ass tubes with no life left in them.



That is what I was thinking. That it is a Mullard. It just looks different from all the other tubes I have. It looks very sturdy. The tube is void of any marking. I have no idea what it is. I just happened to look at the top and saw two seems. No other tube I have has these seems.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You lost me Joe. I know I have sent you tubes. Hell, I sent you a pair of my shorts. What are you saying? I sent you a tube and you forgot what it is? I believe it was that time that Marty sent certain people some V3, V4 tubes. Does that sound right?



It was one that had those strange lot numbers...

Anyways I couldn't tell you what it was cause I don't know shit about tubes hehe. So it left you wondering just like now what the hell I was on about.

Its a Sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> i have a baldwin/sylvania v1,v2 penta labs M mullard reissue(this is working well the high gain is pushing the v1 for a nice gain! v3 rca,v4 mullard,v5 chinese or the mullard RI



What shape is the RCA in? Is it white letter or orange letters? If it still has some good life in it, I would use the RCA (or at least try it) in V1. Swap the Sylvania over to V3 if the Penta is working to your liking in V2.

V4-Mullard. Real Mullard or Mullard RI? If it is a real Mullard, have you not tried it in V1? Let me know about this.

You then say Chinese or Mullard RI in V5.

If you have experience with Chinese tubes, please do a write up on what brands and how long they have lasted. Groove Tube makes a 7025 that is Chinese and it flat sucks. However, some guys really like certain Chinese 12AX7's for high gain applications. I'm always open to hear what others are running.

Let me know if you have a real Mullard.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> What shape is the RCA in? Is it white letter or orange letters? If it still has some good life in it, I would use the RCA (or at least try it) in V1. Swap the Sylvania over to V3 if the Penta is working to your liking in V2.
> 
> V4-Mullard. Real Mullard or Mullard RI? If it is a real Mullard, have you not tried it in V1? Let me know about this.
> 
> You then say Chinese or Mullard RI in V5.
> 
> If you have experience with Chinese tubes, please do a write up on what brands and how long they have lasted. Groove Tube makes a 7025 that is Chinese and it flat sucks. However, some guys really like certain Chinese 12AX7's for high gain applications. I'm always open to hear what others are running.
> 
> Let me know if you have a real Mullard.



Now that I know what the Sylvania sounds like I agree move it on down the line. I missed the RCA he had but I was thinking 12AX7A from the one you got me. Nice tube in either V1 or V2. I thought Ken meant all Mullard RI's but I wonder if 1 of those is a real Mullard now...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm glad that you figured it out...now can I have my shorts back?

:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> That is what I was thinking. That it is a Mullard. It just looks different from all the other tubes I have. It looks very sturdy. The tube is void of any marking. I have no idea what it is. I just happened to look at the top and saw two seems. No other tube I have has these seems.



Just so you know, Mullard is not the only tube with the seams on the top. You would have to upload some pictures so I can examine it. Philips was a massive tube company and they made over 20 brands. They all had seam tops. Philips owned most of the stock in Mullard. Regardless, it's a Philips tube and if it's good would be your V1 tube.

With the markings gone, it could also be a Japanese tube made to Mullard specs.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just so you know, Mullard is not the only tube with the seams on the top. You would have to upload some pictures so I can examine it. Philips was a massive tube company and they made over 20 brands. They all had seam tops. Philips owned most of the stock in Mullard. Regardless, it's a Philips tube and if it's good would be your V1 tube.
> 
> With the markings gone, it could also be a Japanese tube made to Mullard specs.



Unfortunately I don't have a camera that can take close ups so it will have to wait to my inlaws come up for Christmas.

This tube definitely has a sound all it's own compared to the others. Very good note defintion and gain. It's a very bright tube as I had to back off on the presence and mids. It looks like it is built very solid compared to the othe tubes.

In the near future I am going to send you these tubes to test. The guy I work with can't find his tube tester. How do you lose a tube tester? Perhaps if he knew what it was worth that may jog his memory as to it's location. I thought I could use his tester and not have to bother you with it.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> What shape is the RCA in? Is it white letter or orange letters? If it still has some good life in it, I would use the RCA (or at least try it) in V1. Swap the Sylvania over to V3 if the Penta is working to your liking in V2.
> 
> V4-Mullard. Real Mullard or Mullard RI? If it is a real Mullard, have you not tried it in V1? Let me know about this.
> 
> You then say Chinese or Mullard RI in V5.
> 
> If you have experience with Chinese tubes, please do a write up on what brands and how long they have lasted. Groove Tube makes a 7025 that is Chinese and it flat sucks. However, some guys really like certain Chinese 12AX7's for high gain applications. I'm always open to hear what others are running.
> 
> Let me know if you have a real Mullard.



the rca in the 1950's with the orange lettering, I tried it in diff. positions and im liking the sylvania baldwin in the v1 best and i tried your mullard but dont think its strong enough for the v2 so the penta mullard re issue works there because it seems stronger and gives me a nice smooth crunch. The chinese tubes are the stock Marshalls I have a few so I rolled a few and found a decent one for the v5 Pi slot.Think these are the 9th generation ones.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ahh...several things here. You would have to pay overseas shipping and you can get the same tube for a nickle cheaper at Tube Depot.
> 
> 5751 Tube Types
> 
> The second thing is these tubes may not sound that fantastic. These are EGC tubes made in the second half of the 80's. They were made to military specs for non audio applications and this is translated into a cardboard sound. Some of the earlier military WA's sound like a nice 12AX7A's. The regular triple mica's are great. I would stay away from these.
> 
> 
> 
> One word...Westinghouse. He makes reference to a Raytheon. Save your money and get some real RCA or Raytheon Black Plates. This is just a ridiculous price aimed at some nut who is going to go ga-ga over 1956 tubes. The seller offers no return of these fabulous tubes. What if one don't work?
> 
> Black Plate tip: Throughout my buying of tubes, the Raytheon hands down is the best Black Plate tube. When I get RCA's, they usually tend to test on the low end. However, the Raytheon's can test as either a V1 or V2 tube. If you look at an RCA and a Raytheon, the Raytheon looks so much better. If you want a Black Plate, make it a Raytheon.



Thanks, Marty...saved me some money...S


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Unfortunately I don't have a camera that can take close ups so it will have to wait to my inlaws come up for Christmas.
> This tube definitely has a sound all it's own compared to the others. Very good note defintion and gain. It's a very bright tube as I had to back off on the presence and mids. It looks like it is built very solid compared to the othe tubes.



If it is a Mullard, it should have the factory codes etched into the glass. Look near the bottom of the tube for something like I63 and under that a four-digit code that starts with the letter "B". They may be very faint, but they should be there.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> If it is a Mullard, it should have the factory codes etched into the glass. Look near the bottom of the tube for something like I63 and under that a four-digit code that starts with the letter "B". They may be very faint, but they should be there.



Hey RR.

No go. I see nothing. The tube is completely devoid of any distinguishing marks.

How big should the seems be at the top? There are two but they are very small. I believe they are seems.

Damn I wish I could post some pics.


----------



## Procter2812

wegman said:


> Hey RR.
> 
> No go. I see nothing. The tube is completely devoid of any distinguishing marks.
> 
> How big should the seems be at the top? There are two but they are very small. I believe they are seems.
> 
> Damn I wish I could post some pics.



Sounds like a mullard.

I have some pictures in my profile album of Mullards with the seams on top. have a look...


----------



## wegman

Procter2812 said:


> Sounds like a mullard.
> 
> I have some pictures in my profile album of Mullards with the seams on top. have a look...



Hey Procter.

When I look at your Mullards I see they have ribbed plates. This tube has smooth plates.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok im excited

I snapped up those 4 GE/sylvania valves to put in V3 and V4 and also just anagged these 2 beauties, after eading about them earlier in the thread i figured they would worth a try at around £15 for the pair. If these 2 check out ok then I think im starting to get somewhere with hunting down decent valves at good prices.


----------



## Procter2812

Ahhh.

My telefunken has smooth plates and very shallow seams. but are in like a cross shape..


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Ok im excited
> 
> I snapped up those 4 GE/sylvania valves to put in V3 and V4 and also just anagged these 2 beauties, after eading about them earlier in the thread i figured they would worth a try at around £15 for the pair. If these 2 check out ok then I think im starting to get somewhere with hunting down decent valves at good prices.



Im sorry but that is an absolute bargain!!! I wish i would have seen them good find dude!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's another test. With the tube pulled for say the V1 slot, install it and turn the amp on. Does the base of the tube flash? There's a lot of tubes it could be. It could be an Ei. I think they made smooth plate tubes.

Turn the tube upside down. There should be a circle mark. Is there any sort of symbol in the circle like <>?

Probably have to wait until some pictures can get posted.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here's another test. With the tube pulled for say the V1 slot, install it and turn the amp on. Does the base of the tube flash? There's a lot of tubes it could be. It could be an Ei. I think they made smooth plate tubes.
> 
> Turn the tube upside down. There should be a circle mark. Is there any sort of symbol in the circle like <>?
> 
> Probably have to wait until some pictures can get posted.



Hey Marty. 

No flash, no marks. Nothing. It's probably nothing. I just saw what appear to be little seems at the top that none of my other tubes have and that got me wondering.

Thanks for the help guys.

When I can I will post some pics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mo Fugging BUMP!

Well I did it. I'm a pretty happy SOB. I was given a heads up about an F3 TWISTER for sale on EBAY. I watched the listing and there were zero bids and I knew the seller needed money for Christmas. I let the auction expire and then I immediately sent him an email with an "outside" offer. He snapped it up. I got the amp for $700, plus $40 to ship. This amp has several factory upgrades over a regular F3. This amp does is all. JTM, JMP, 800 and more. Two power tubes for cheap tube changes. I can't wait to put some real tubes in it. I'll have to change my SIG. I don't list my Randall's and my Peavey's, but I will list my TWISTER.

I wanted the blue one, but I can handle the leather look on this amp, especially when I saved $500+. This purchase has relieved me of some of my gas. Now I'm not gassing that bad. I think a custom 2 X 12 cab is in store for this with a Texas Heat and a Governor.

Please...don't hold back, let me hear what you have to say.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260523161427&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

http://www.twisteramps.com/F3.html


----------



## wegman

Good job Marty. I am glad to hear you are pleased with your purchase. I hope the amp absolutely rocks for you.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mo Fugging BUMP!
> 
> Well I did it. I'm a pretty happy SOB. I was given a heads up about an F3 TWISTER for sale on EBAY. I watched the listing and there were zero bids and I knew the seller needed money for Christmas. I let the auction expire and then I immediately sent him an email with an "outside" offer. He snapped it up. I got the amp for $700, plus $40 to ship. This amp has several factory upgrades over a regular F3. This amp does is all. JTM, JMP, 800 and more. Two power tubes for cheap tube changes. I can't wait to put some real tubes in it. I'll have to change my SIG. I don't list my Randall's and my Peavey's, but I will list my TWISTER.
> 
> I wanted the blue one, but I can handle the leather look on this amp, especially when I saved $500+. This purchase has relieved me of some of my gas. Now I'm not gassing that bad. I think a custom 2 X 12 cab is in store for this with a Texas Heat and a Governor.
> 
> Please...don't hold back, let me hear what you have to say.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
> 
> Twister Handbuilt Guitar Amplifiers - Dayton, Ohio


congrats! pics or its a bugera!


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Hey Marty.
> 
> No flash, no marks. Nothing. It's probably nothing. I just saw what appear to be little seems at the top that none of my other tubes have and that got me wondering.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys.
> 
> When I can I will post some pics.



I was thinking Ei, too. They are the only ones I know of who made a tube with a pinched top and smooth plates. I don't think your tube was made by one of the Philips companies, but they did so much you can't ever be 100% sure. Ei made a fine ECC83, and I've noticed the price going up on them lately. The sad thing is, from what I understand, the Ei factory is still sitting there all tooled up and could start production again immediately.

Ei ECC83 / 12AX7

Ei-RC Products Page


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mo Fugging BUMP!
> 
> Well I did it. I'm a pretty happy SOB. I was given a heads up about an F3 TWISTER for sale on EBAY. I watched the listing and there were zero bids and I knew the seller needed money for Christmas. I let the auction expire and then I immediately sent him an email with an "outside" offer. He snapped it up. I got the amp for $700, plus $40 to ship. This amp has several factory upgrades over a regular F3. This amp does is all. JTM, JMP, 800 and more. Two power tubes for cheap tube changes. I can't wait to put some real tubes in it. I'll have to change my SIG. I don't list my Randall's and my Peavey's, but I will list my TWISTER.
> 
> I wanted the blue one, but I can handle the leather look on this amp, especially when I saved $500+. This purchase has relieved me of some of my gas. Now I'm not gassing that bad. I think a custom 2 X 12 cab is in store for this with a Texas Heat and a Governor.
> 
> Please...don't hold back, let me hear what you have to say.
> 
> Minty Twister F3 50 Watt Tube Head - Marshall Heaven!! - eBay (item 260523161427 end time Dec-20-09 11:41:49 PST)
> 
> Twister Handbuilt Guitar Amplifiers - Dayton, Ohio



You lucky Sumbitch!

That is frigg'n awesome man. I knew you been wanting this amp and what a score!

I'll be waiting in line to hear about it. Congrats my friend!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've still got it in so we will see. How many hours(if hours)did you get out of it?



Maybe an hour. I play-tested them when they came in, and I may have used that one as a V2 tube for awhile. I'm not upset with the seller. Hell, I'll take a chance all day at $5 per tube with free shipping.


----------



## RiverRatt

What is a Twister?

nevermind.. I went and read the description. I don't care for the hand-tooled leather look, but if it sounds as advertised, it sounds right up my alley. You gonna post sound clips when you get it?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Maybe an hour. I play-tested them when they came in, and I may have used that one as a V2 tube for awhile. I'm not upset with the seller. Hell, I'll take a chance all day at $5 per tube with free shipping.



Well who knows I might get 2hrs then hehe. Yeah for $5 its hard to feel ripped off. They are good sounding tubes though.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> the rca in the 1950's with the orange lettering, I tried it in diff. positions and im liking the sylvania baldwin in the v1 best and i tried your mullard but dont think its strong enough for the v2 so the penta mullard re issue works there because it seems stronger and gives me a nice smooth crunch. The chinese tubes are the stock Marshalls I have a few so I rolled a few and found a decent one for the v5 Pi slot.Think these are the 9th generation ones.



I still say get the Telefunken and the Raytheon BP. Just add those 2 to the mix and I bet you will be pleased. I think these 2 would offer the most impact per cost to performance ratio for what your goal is. Other than that I'll have to ponder awhile more...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> What is a Twister?
> 
> nevermind.. I went and read the description. I don't care for the hand-tooled leather look, but if it sounds as advertised, it sounds right up my alley. You gonna post sound clips when you get it?



Yeah, like I said, if it had been the blue color, I would have just bid on it. I'm not that thrilled about the tooled leather look, but it's like an ugly chick...you just put a bag over her head. In my case, I'll just look at it and say I saved over $500+ dollars on it as it has two custom shop options on the amp. If you read the EBAY listing, you'll see what they are. Pentode/Triode switch and then take either mode and go into half power, so you can go 50/25 and 25/12.5. Hey, I got me a bedroom amp.

As far as sound clips? I do not have the gear necessary to do sound clips. I moved recently and found my old Cakewalk Guitar Tracks 2, but it was set up for Windows 98. I looked online for updated drivers and they had them, but I couldn't find the registration code. See, I think you need a good digital camera with the capability to run an external mic. I also know that Sony has a sweet little hand held stereo recorder which probably would do the trick, because then you could do your recording and plug it into your computer and "Bam," you have your sound clip. I will check into some of this, but hey, I just spent money on the real needs of life...another amp.


----------



## Procter2812

Sweeeet.

Iv just scored a Mazda Ecc83 which tested strong for £5.99!

Bargain 

1 X MAZDA ECC83 VALVE on eBay (end time 20-Dec-09 21:31:45 GMT)


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Sweeeet.
> 
> Iv just scored a Mazda Ecc83 which tested strong for £5.99!
> 
> Bargain
> 
> 1 X MAZDA ECC83 VALVE on eBay (end time 20-Dec-09 21:31:45 GMT)




Bought a Brimar from the same seller a while back, I was following this one, but after my recent purchases im going to lay off and wait untill the new year before i start hunting again.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, like I said, if it had been the blue color, I would have just bid on it. I'm not that thrilled about the tooled leather look, but it's like an ugly chick...you just put a bag over her head. In my case, I'll just look at it and say I saved over $500+ dollars on it as it has two custom shop options on the amp. If you read the EBAY listing, you'll see what they are. Pentode/Triode switch and then take either mode and go into half power, so you can go 50/25 and 25/12.5. Hey, I got me a bedroom amp.
> 
> As far as sound clips? I do not have the gear necessary to do sound clips. I moved recently and found my old Cakewalk Guitar Tracks 2, but it was set up for Windows 98. I looked online for updated drivers and they had them, but I couldn't find the registration code. See, I think you need a good digital camera with the capability to run an external mic. I also know that Sony has a sweet little hand held stereo recorder which probably would do the trick, because then you could do your recording and plug it into your computer and "Bam," you have your sound clip. I will check into some of this, but hey, I just spent money on the real needs of life...another amp.



Half power switch is very cool. I wonder what 1 EL34 sounds like...

Oh damn I just noticed it halfs again. Wow!

I'm just calling you up when you get it and you can play it over the phone for me hehe.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Bought a Brimar from the same seller a while back, I was following this one, but after my recent purchases im going to lay off and wait untill the new year before i start hunting again.



sweet, how long did it take to receive it?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Just bought these...they had started a while ago at 189.99 I'll use them in the various amps around the house...V1 or V2?
Brimar B.V.A. ECC83 12AX7 NOS TEST Matching Tubes Quad - eBay (item 230383009967 end time Dec-20-09 16:13:16 PST)


----------



## solarburn

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Just bought these...they had started a while ago at 189.99 I'll use them in the various amps around the house...V1 or V2?
> Brimar B.V.A. ECC83 12AX7 NOS TEST Matching Tubes Quad - eBay (item 230383009967 end time Dec-20-09 16:13:16 PST)



I want to try 1 of these in V1 to see what they are about.

They are a $100 a pop at my online dealer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Half power switch is very cool. I wonder what 1 EL34 sounds like...
> 
> Oh damn I just noticed it halfs again. Wow!
> 
> I'm just calling you up when you get it and you can play it over the phone for me hehe.



I'll probably call or email Twister and see about obtaining an owner's manual and verify this Pentode/Triode and half power. The guy I bought it off of claims it is two different mods on the amp. Man, I have some smokestack Sylvania 6CA7's to put in this amp. I hope I can come up with some good preamp tubes.

It's been awhile since I played a single channel amp. Are they hard to master? 

I also will try and get a set of CP KT66's for this amp. I would like to hear how those sound. I'll need to find out what the plate voltage is and see how this thing will bias. I hope it has user friendly bias adjustment. (Another reason for an owner's manual.)

Oh one other thing. Without the owner's manual, I will assume that V1 is my only gain tube. I hope so. That will make tone testing tubes a piece of cake. Also, I can try lopsided tubes like 25-29 in this amp to see what that does. It's gonna be my new tube testing amp.

Man, I'm stoked!


----------



## solarburn

Gat damn I'm excited for ya! You are going to have a blast with that thing. Can't wait to hear about the range of toans and what tubes sound good in it. What cab/speakers are you going to run it through first? Damn I wish we was neighbors...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have two, 4 X 12's, but when the weather gets nicer I would like to make a custom 2 X 12 with say a Texas Heat and a Governor in it. Those sound really good together and suit the hot rod blues and hard rock style. The head only weighs 30 pounds and if I make a 2 X 12 cab it will be easier on the old man loading the stuff up. I think I have one of my 602's sold. With the NOS tubes and the Altec 417's he's willing to go $1175. I picked it up for $550.

I probably will be wheeling and dealing if the market picks up. There is another amp I want, but they cost three grand. I'm just finding a sound with the F3 that I can't get out of my Marshall's. The F3 is very close to the ballsy sound of that clone Bass 50 and you know how good that sounded...right? The thing is, it's just a single channel. You got to work the guitar volume and the pickups a lot more. You know that. What I'm gassing over is how it will sound with all NOS tubes and then the 500T in the bridge of my Explorer. "K*A*B*O*O*M!" Somethings gonna blow. Hell yeah! See, it's like an 800, but it sounds better than an 800. When I tried the F3 out when the guy came over from KC, I put a Telefunken smooth plate in it and two GE short black plates and the amp had I believe Winged =C='s in it. It was awesome. That's when I knew I had to get one. No diodes in this sucker. It has a modified Fender preamp, that's why it still has good cleans, but turn the volume up and it's crunchy as can be. And it was articulate as you like to say. 

When I get it, I am putting the Sylvania 6CA7's in it and then probably a ribbed Telefunken and then I will roll V2 and V3 to see if I can go with Sylvania's. I will try the GE short black plates in there as well. If I want to go uptown, I can use the Telefunken and two Philips tubes. You see, I'm waiting to find out if V1 is the only gain tube, or if half of V2 is used. That will make a big difference. Then I will probably use the 412 cab that has the Utah Bell speakers in it. They roll off at around 4.2KHz so it makes the amp sound real tight and solid. Just enough top end to do the notes right, but more midrange mojo going on. One word...thick. That was what I was trying to say. A bluesman's rig.


----------



## Rev-al

Many thanks Marty and RR !
When the JMP 50 is back from it's cap job I'll install the Amperex
Any thoughts on this Mullard on UK ebay ? 230411538776 -


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> sweet, how long did it take to receive it?



Erm not 100% sure but I think it was about a week.


----------



## Rev-al

Ok- here's my attempt at adding pics - of the ecc83s in my SL100 -
Hope it works-
ecc83 2 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
ecc83 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Brand anyone ? (bought from Colomor in London in '94 i think)


----------



## Procter2812

Rev-al said:


> Ok- here's my attempt at adding pics - of the ecc83s in my SL100 -
> Hope it works-
> ecc83 2 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> ecc83 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> Brand anyone ? (bought from Colomor in London in '94 i think)



Looks like a few of the Brimars I have.

CV4004 was linked with Mullard and Brimars as far as I know.

Does it have seams on the top?


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> Looks like a few of the Brimars I have.



+1. Looks like a Brimar to me, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check these out. I believe this is the same tube as in the photos. It doesn't have the boxes like the ones in the Rev's photo, which I believe is a military tube, otherwise they are very similar.

Product 2


----------



## Procter2812

Yeah... they look similar

Iv got a Brimar here which is identical... No seams on top... ribbed plates from 1962.

Unfortunately... its worn out and now hums/hisses.

Thats now 3 that have gone. Lucky i have caught a few bargains!


----------



## Rev-al

Yep- no seems on top.
Thanks for the input - its nice to know.
Any thoughts on the one on the right ? (The boxes were from the 'Brimars')
valve ecc83 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Thanks guys


----------



## Procter2812

Looks like an RFT or an Ei.

But i think its an RFT possibly made for RCA?? for export to America.

Your probs best asking Marty on that one..


----------



## Rev-al

Thanks - 
A closer look in the daylight seem to reveal a Made in India mark in white down near the base -plus what looks like EI etched down low too. There is a seam at the top
(and last night one rolled off the table top and broke D'uh !) Only got two left.


----------



## RiverRatt

If it says "Made in India" and has seams on top, it's a BEL.


----------



## traviss1981

yeah... got to page 7 of this thread yesterday before my brain seized up from information overload... LOL good stuff though!


----------



## ken361

Any of you guys have any cheap sovtek 12ax7 wa ,try it in the PI slot there pretty smooth!


----------



## Rev-al

RiverRatt said:


> If it says "Made in India" and has seams on top, it's a BEL.



Many thanks RiverRatt

So are BEL tubes considered to be any good ? - comperable to what, in your opinion ?


----------



## RiverRatt

Rev-al said:


> Many thanks RiverRatt
> 
> So are BEL tubes considered to be any good ? - comperable to what, in your opinion ?



I don't know - they are one of the tubes on my to-do list. They should be very similar to a Mullard. ANY tube made by the Philips companies is going to be good. Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, etc. are the giants, but they had many smaller companies that made comparable valves. I actually think I prefer my Japanese-made Matsushita over the Mullards. There was also a lot of re-branding that went on between Philips companies and other manufacturers as well, so sometimes it's really hard to tell exactly what you're looking at. Do a google search sometime for the Philips Factory Code book in PDF format. By the 1960's, most Philips companies were using that system and it's the best way to tell what you have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and when you get that code book mastered, then I will start you on Boolean Algebra and tube theory.


----------



## Rev-al

Nice !
(tho my girl is already getting worried about me + the amount of time I spend 'playing about' with my valves - Think she'd prefer my to go back to looking at the other type of porn!)


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Any of you guys have any cheap sovtek 12ax7 wa ,try it in the PI slot there pretty smooth!



I like the Sovtec LPS in the PI. I don't have any of the WA's left. They went out with the recycling with all the rest of the cardboard.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah and when you get that code book mastered, then I will start you on Boolean Algebra and tube theory.



There will be a test after the Christmas break.


----------



## racko7566

Well guys, I haven't had much time to post lately because I cant put my guitar down. I actually fell asleep around 11 last night and woke up at 3 am. guitar on my lap and amp still on. (we'll call it burn in) . I took Solars advice and got me a quad of Electo-Harmonix 6ca7EH's. They made my amp sound so much better. I now began rollin all over agian because they made all my preamp tubes sound better and different. It killed alot of the fizzy distortion and made it sound smooth and roaring on lead 1 with gain around 6. They feel and respond great, and sound much better for palm muted notes. The combination of these power tubes really bring out the quality sound of the nos pre amp tubes I got from Marty. My favorite combo is the Amperex in v1, raytheon black plate in v2, a sylvania grey plate in v3, and a super hot slylvania in v4. The only other tubes Ive tried in power section are the stock russian or chinese tubes that came with the amp, which dont suck too bad, then I tried some JJ el34's which I thought sucked balls, and a set of EHel34's which were better than the other two brands but not quite the sound I was looking for. Now Im in heaven. I just scored 3 raytheon bp's for 68 bucs on ebay and 4 7025's for 69 bucks so I think I can chill for a while on buying and just enjoy rollin. you know, this all started as guitar playing being my hobby, which Im not the greatist at but still getting better at , and turned it into a new hobby.... my amp and experimenting with it is so fun also. I really wanna thank all you guys on this thread, your a great bunch. I have a good time reading here. Not a day goes by that I dont pop in. Well I,d like to give a little back. The ehel34's I have I want to put on a journey of tone searching, Any one who would like to try them out PM me and I will ship them to you, play them a while and pass them on to the next person that might like to try them. Lets see how far the can travel around the country and maybe make it across the pond. by the way will move them as a quad so 50 watters and 100 watters can try them. Merry Christmas to all my new friends here, Racko


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Well guys, I haven't had much time to post lately because I cant put my guitar down. I actually fell asleep around 11 last night and woke up at 3 am. guitar on my lap and amp still on. (we'll call it burn in) . I took Solars advice and got me a quad of Electo-Harmonix 6ca7EH's. They made my amp sound so much better. I now began rollin all over agian because they made all my preamp tubes sound better and different. It killed alot of the fizzy distortion and made it sound smooth and roaring on lead 1 with gain around 6. They feel and respond great, and sound much better for palm muted notes. The combination of these power tubes really bring out the quality sound of the nos pre amp tubes I got from Marty. My favorite combo is the Amperex in v1, raytheon black plate in v2, a sylvania grey plate in v3, and a super hot slylvania in v4. The only other tubes Ive tried in power section are the stock russian or chinese tubes that came with the amp, which dont suck too bad, then I tried some JJ el34's which I thought sucked balls, and a set of EHel34's which were better than the other two brands but not quite the sound I was looking for. Now Im in heaven. I just scored 3 raytheon bp's for 68 bucs on ebay and 4 7025's for 69 bucks so I think I can chill for a while on buying and just enjoy rollin. you know, this all started as guitar playing being my hobby, which Im not the greatist at but still getting better at , and turned it into a new hobby.... my amp and experimenting with it is so fun also. I really wanna thank all you guys on this thread, your a great bunch. I have a good time reading here. Not a day goes by that I dont pop in. Well I,d like to give a little back. The ehel34's I have I want to put on a journey of tone searching, Any one who would like to try them out PM me and I will ship them to you, play them a while and pass them on to the next person that might like to try them. Lets see how far the can travel around the country and maybe make it across the pond. by the way will move them as a quad so 50 watters and 100 watters can try them. Merry Christmas to all my new friends here, Racko




That's 2 of us now!



Great idea for the EH34's and a generous offer!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got a big load of tubes in today, but no black plates. Was running through some Tele ribbed plates and I was thinking, "Man these are V2's." They were running 30-31, 32-30, 32-35 and 31-31. Then I put the next one in and it was 17-12. Oh no. Then the last one, 22-16. Two bad one's. This is my first time with this seller, Pamela. Her other tubes were fantastic. Are you guys familiar with "black top" getter flash? This is actually a better getter material than the nice chrome looking flash. It took more time, so only a small amount were treated this way. Well, I got six Mullards and two of them are black tops. These are real Mullard's, not relabeled. Lastly, four Amperex, two of them 1958 Bugle Boys. Several of the Mullards and two of the Amperex were V2's...hot, hot!

I have 12 more of the Electrohomes due any day now. I am really happy with these. You just can't go wrong with a Philips tube, regardless of where it was made.

I'm glad to see that quite a few of you are getting on the EBAY train. Just remember the rules I posted about this so you don't get stuck with a dud and not know it's a dud. You can't trust everyone on EBAY. Make sure you buy from a reputable seller with great feedback. Go to his feedback page. Does he sell a lot of electronics, or does he deal mainly in baby clothes? Some of these guys don't know a tube from a turnip. 

Take care, Merry Christmas.


----------



## wegman

Hey guys good evening.

I just tried out a new tube called an Electrohome. I got it off a guy I work with who just found his "tube caddy" whatever the Hell that is (still can't find his tube tester and I hit up with that sweetheart again today offering to buy it).

This tube has got some major aggression pent up inside. I tried it in V1 with my current tube setup and it was just over the top. My setup was:

V1 Electrohome

V2 GE

V3 Ge

V4 Groove Tube (reverb which I don't use)

V5 RCA Black Plate

I mean it sounded good but it was to much of good thing. So I went to:

V1 Electrohome

V2 RCA Black Plate

V3 Ge

V4 (same piece of crap)

V5 RCA Black Plate

That was the ticket! My amp is so agressive now it is amazing. It grunts now, yet I didn't lose the articulation.

What is the story on these Electrohome tubes? Is it some super aggressive tube or something?

Lastly my power tubes have to go. They suck.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Try your RCA BP in V1 and the Philips in V2. I believe on this amp V2 is the tone stack/cathode follower circuits.

Also, you may be used to the lower gain of the old tubes. Try rethinking your guitar volume controls and your amp settings. If the Electrohome is a little hotter, you will want to play around with the controls on your amp and guitar. You might have to really roll the guitar volume down for your cleaner sound and then you might want to see where you are at with the guitar all the way up. If its too much, then adjust your amp, because the guitar is only going to produce the cleaner sound and the ballsy crunch sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I went to Dr. Tube and looked at your amp. Did you list what the premap tubes do? I remember someone doing this. I forgot that this is a split channel. Looking at the schematic, it appears that V1 is split and one side is for your normal channel and the other your boost channel. However, V2 does look like the TS/CF circuits. Then it gets a little crazy. V4 is the reverb driver, but it only needs one half of the tube. The other half could be an additional gain channel. V3 is also split and with that schematic drawing being bad, there is a chance that there may be a gain channel here.

V5 is the PI.

I learn stuff all of the time. I just recently found out that some of the old Marshall with 3 preamp tubes actually used all of V1 and half of V2. Well that makes a big difference on how you approach putting tubes in it.

Same thing with your animal. I mean that must be a really bad ass 800. I've only played the early single channels. I'll talk to Jon Wilder and see what he has to say. I'm thinking that you got at least one more gain channel in that group of tubes.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I went to Dr. Tube and looked at your amp. Did you list what the premap tubes do? I remember someone doing this. I forgot that this is a split channel. Looking at the schematic, it appears that V1 is split and one side is for your normal channel and the other your boost channel. However, V2 does look like the TS/CF circuits. Then it gets a little crazy. V4 is the reverb driver, but it only needs one half of the tube. The other half could be an additional gain channel. V3 is also split and with that schematic drawing being bad, there is a chance that there may be a gain channel here.
> 
> V5 is the PI.
> 
> I learn stuff all of the time. I just recently found out that some of the old Marshall with 3 preamp tubes actually used all of V1 and half of V2. Well that makes a big difference on how you approach putting tubes in it.
> 
> Same thing with your animal. I mean that must be a really bad ass 800. I've only played the early single channels. I'll talk to Jon Wilder and see what he has to say. I'm thinking that you got at least one more gain channel in that group of tubes.



Wow that is info I didn't know. I thought 1 & 2 were gain, 3 was tone, 4 was reverb and 5 was the PI. 

If what you say is true, and it probably is then your absolutely correct. I need to approach my tube placement differently.

Man that's an eye opener.


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> That was the ticket! My amp is so agressive now it is amazing. It grunts now, yet I didn't lose the articulation.
> 
> What is the story on these Electrohome tubes? Is it some super aggressive tube or something?



Welcome to the world of Philips, my man! That's why I was excited about getting those 3 Matsushitas for $15. Sometimes the gods smile on you.

Now, think about the fact that almost everyone here prefers Telefunkens over Philips (except Marty and his Amperex... I now have a couple of those to test if I can ever get home long enough!!).


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome to the world of Philips, my man! That's why I was excited about getting those 3 Matsushitas for $15. Sometimes the gods smile on you.
> 
> Now, think about the fact that almost everyone here prefers Telefunkens over Philips (except Marty and his Amperex... I now have a couple of those to test if I can ever get home long enough!!).



I still am enjoying my Matsushita Alan. I have an Electrohome I've been sampling and its a good'n too. Like I've said before when you get quality tubes like this its hard to stay with one set up cause of the quality of tone from others in the mix. 

I will say this. I have not wanted to change the BP out of V2 while mixing them. It just seems best in that spot on mine. The other tubes keep mixing really well with it and to my ears sound better when the BP is in V2. I took my RFT out of the PI and put in a Mullard and an interesting thing happened to the mids overall. So the Mullard sounds good there. It tested at 31/31. Pretty damn stout!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey WEGMAN you owe me. You also owe Jon Wilder a cold beer...a good one.

I looked at the schematic on Dr. Tube and I broke it down to what I thought the tubes were doing. I was close, but Jon was exact. Take a walk with me.



> Hey Marty...close, very close. Not bad.
> 
> Yes V1A is split and sends signal to both the normal as well as the boost channel. However this amp does not use the standard "cathode follower" into the tone stack. Both halves of V2 along with V1a make up the normal channel. V1a along with V1b and V3a make up the boost channel. V3b is the reverb driver amp while V4b is the reverb recovery amp. V4a is the Effects Return recovery amp to step the signal back up from line level back to the level it needs to be to drive the phase inverter (R32 along with R31 and the Reverb pot form a voltage divider to pad the signal down to line/pedal level before it hits the send jack...R32 is also the "blend" resistor for the reverb circuit).



There you go. That signal path is like going in circles. Let's break it down.

Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B

Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A

Reverb: V3B and V4B

Effects Return: V4A

Phase Inverter: V5

To be honest, it would take some very serious tube rolling to set this amp up. In reality, you would want V1 to be say a 24-27 tube. Then V2 would be a 26-26 as this is your normal channel. Then you would have to get a tube for V3 that would be like 29-25. Not that difficult when you have 400 tubes.

So V1 is important, but what makes it tough is that it is double duty. Instead of a 27-27, you would want a 24-27. V2 is the easiest tube there is. It is dedicated to the Clean Channel. Your Boost Channel is like connect the dots.

However, it can be done. I just needed to see how it worked. 

And yes, you are going to have to get your tubes tested so you can rethink your approach on this monster.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey WEGMAN you owe me. You also owe Jon Wilder a cold beer...a good one.
> 
> I looked at the schematic on Dr. Tube and I broke it down to what I thought the tubes were doing. I was close, but Jon was exact. Take a walk with me.
> 
> 
> 
> There you go. That signal path is like going in circles. Let's break it down.
> 
> Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B
> 
> Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A
> 
> Reverb: V3B and V4B
> 
> Effects Return: V4A
> 
> Phase Inverter: V5
> 
> To be honest, it would take some very serious tube rolling to set this amp up. In reality, you would want V1 to be say a 24-27 tube. Then V2 would be a 26-26 as this is your normal channel. Then you would have to get a tube for V3 that would be like 29-25. Not that difficult when you have 400 tubes.
> 
> So V1 is important, but what makes it tough is that it is double duty. Instead of a 27-27, you would want a 24-27. V2 is the easiest tube there is. It is dedicated to the Clean Channel. Your Boost Channel is like connect the dots.
> 
> However, it can be done. I just needed to see how it worked.
> 
> And yes, you are going to have to get your tubes tested so you can rethink your approach on this monster.



Wow. That's absolutely convoluted. Is this the boolean algebra lesson you were talking about?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No, this is more like Differential Equations.

Wait till Weggie gets a load of this. 

<Wakes up and goes to computer.>

<Goes to Marshall Amp Forum, Preamp Tubes Thread.>

<Sees what Marty has posted.>

<Shits his pants.>


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. I'd need a flowchart to keep up with that. Well, it's time to go home. Wonder if I can get away with firing up the amp?  I really, really want to get started trying out all these tubes!


----------



## Procter2812

Just got my Mazda ECC83 through.

Its exactly the same as my Brimar. 

And tests strong! all for £5.99!


----------



## underliner6

JJ Tubes any good?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No, this is more like Differential Equations.
> 
> Wait till Weggie gets a load of this.
> 
> <Wakes up and goes to computer.>
> 
> <Goes to Marshall Amp Forum, Preamp Tubes Thread.>
> 
> <Sees what Marty has posted.>
> 
> <Shits his pants.>



You'd have to pay a professional tube roll'n sumbich to get that amp tuned up right!:eek2::Ohno:

Just do the best ya can JW...


----------



## solarburn

underliner6 said:


> JJ Tubes any good?



IME...no.


----------



## frails

I like the JJ 803S. It is a perfect match for the Orange Rocker 30.


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> Just got my Mazda ECC83 through.
> 
> Its exactly the same as my Brimar.
> 
> And tests strong! all for £5.99!



Great price. Of course, we'll need a tone report and some pics!


----------



## solarburn

frails said:


> I like the JJ 803S. It is a perfect match for the Orange Rocker 30.



I liked it too. Mine lasted 4hrs...


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> Great price. Of course, we'll need a tone report and some pics!



Yeah, well iv tested it and it sounds great. No noise high gain for a NOS valve.

It sounds different to the Mullard.

Bit smoother, but the Mullard has a real mid punch which you cant complain about. Sounds more 'Vintage' to me.

Il stick some photos of em all up later...


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well my pair of Bel 12ax7 came today, they sound and look exactly like my other phillips tubes, ie great! Scored this pair for £15. Has the number 71 ethced just above another alphanumeric etching saying E05 on both valves.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great pictures. Hey RATT look at those BEL plates. They only have the cut-out holes on the front plates. Remember my slant top Raytheon had cut-outs on the front and rear plates. Since the BEL's have the single cut-outs, this indicates a Philips design which it is.

Double cut-outs-Mullards

Single cut-outs-Philips


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Yeah, well iv tested it and it sounds great. No noise high gain for a NOS valve.
> 
> It sounds different to the Mullard.
> 
> Bit smoother, but the Mullard has a real mid punch which you cant complain about. Sounds more 'Vintage' to me.
> 
> Il stick some photos of em all up later...



Sweet, Solar loves TooB PorN. He can look at pictures for hours at a time.

I'm really glad that you have snagged some good tubes. Way to go. I think you will like the end results.


----------



## MartyStrat54

frails said:


> I like the JJ 803S. It is a perfect match for the Orange Rocker 30.



These tubes suffer from a reliability issue. If not for that, some say they sound really good. I'm hoping you have good luck with yours, because you seem pretty happy with it. Love that Rocker 30.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Brought this over from deep within the vaults. PAGE 64



MartyStrat54 said:


> Slant Getter Raytheon. Probably an Amperex or Philips tube. Later Amperex, non-Bugle Boy has a cut-out in the plate like the Raytheon. Everything looks the same except for the slant top getter.
> 
> EDIT: Third picture down is the one that tells all. The Amperex only has cut-outs on the outer plates. The Mullard design has the cut-out going through the outer and inner plates. This is what the Raytheon has. See post below.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good shot of plate cut-outs. Same style mica spacers and plate design.
> I took a look at some various Mullards and they all had the cut-out and the same plate design.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The RCA Mullard is on the left. It has the identical internal structure as a late design Amperex (which could have been made by Mullard). The Raytheon is very similar to both. Then I start thinking about the Mullard equipment that went to Japan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

underliner6 said:


> JJ Tubes any good?



I think they make some good power tubes, but I personally am not a fan of their preamp tubes. One of the things about a tube amp is that there are all of these tube options. The best thing is to try different tubes out at a pace you can afford. 

Remember, depending on your amp, you may only need one or two good tube. Take a DSL for instance. V1 and V2 are the gain stages. These tubes shape the tone of your amp, so you want your best flavor tubes here. V3 and V4 can be EH12AX7's.

If you notice, some of the younger guys took the initiative to go online and buy themselves some great NOS tubes. Now they have killer tubes for their gain stages. They can still run current production in the other slots and save their extra good tubes as spares.

Just ask anyone here the difference between a Mullard and a JJ? NOS tubes just flat out sound better. Hang around here and read about some of the stuff we do and I guarantee you will be wanting some NOS tubes. If you catch the right auction, you can get a couple of RCA's for $40 and that is in the same price range as some of the CP tubes.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey WEGMAN you owe me. You also owe Jon Wilder a cold beer...a good one.
> 
> I looked at the schematic on Dr. Tube and I broke it down to what I thought the tubes were doing. I was close, but Jon was exact. Take a walk with me.
> 
> 
> 
> There you go. That signal path is like going in circles. Let's break it down.
> 
> Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B
> 
> Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A
> 
> Reverb: V3B and V4B
> 
> Effects Return: V4A
> 
> Phase Inverter: V5
> 
> To be honest, it would take some very serious tube rolling to set this amp up. In reality, you would want V1 to be say a 24-27 tube. Then V2 would be a 26-26 as this is your normal channel. Then you would have to get a tube for V3 that would be like 29-25. Not that difficult when you have 400 tubes.
> 
> So V1 is important, but what makes it tough is that it is double duty. Instead of a 27-27, you would want a 24-27. V2 is the easiest tube there is. It is dedicated to the Clean Channel. Your Boost Channel is like connect the dots.
> 
> However, it can be done. I just needed to see how it worked.
> 
> And yes, you are going to have to get your tubes tested so you can rethink your approach on this monster.





MartyStrat54 said:


> No, this is more like Differential Equations.
> 
> Wait till Weggie gets a load of this.
> 
> <Wakes up and goes to computer.>
> 
> <Goes to Marshall Amp Forum, Preamp Tubes Thread.>
> 
> <Sees what Marty has posted.>
> 
> <Shits his pants.>





Holy Geez! (Cleaning fecal matter from shorts)

First off thanks for the info Marty. I will have to thank Wilder too.

I had no idea this thing was this complicated. I am going to screw around with it tonight with this new knowledge and see what I come up with.

Looks like you are going to be getting a load of tubes test Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah what I can do is test the tubes and see what you have. Then I might be able to do a trade plus a little cash for what you need. I have lopsided tubes that will work perfectly in this amp. 

I tell you I didn't know anything about this amp. It is a killer amp and Jon and I love the design. It is really old school, but it is a two channel. It was Marshall's final offering of the 800. It was made for about two years then the 900's came out. If I ever find a 2205, I may just snap it up. (Now that I know how it works.)

Give Jon a shout and let him know that you appreciate his help.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah what I can do is test the tubes and see what you have. Then I might be able to do a trade plus a little cash for what you need. I have lopsided tubes that will work perfectly in this amp.
> 
> I tell you I didn't know anything about this amp. It is a killer amp and Jon and I love the design. It is really old school, but it is a two channel. It was Marshall's final offering of the 800. It was made for about two years then the 900's came out. If I ever find a 2205, I may just snap it up. (Now that I know how it works.)
> 
> Give Jon a shout and let him know that you appreciate his help.



I think it's a killer amp but all you hear everyone talk about is the older 800s such as the 2203 and 2204. For the record mine is 1989, the last year they made the amp. It has the diode clipping which the affcianados like to bash.

Without getting to far away from tubes what is about the amp you like?

I will see when I can get these tubes out to you. Probably at soonest after Christmas if not after the first.

I dropped wilder a note by the way.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Well my pair of Bel 12ax7 came today, they sound and look exactly like my other phillips tubes, ie great! Scored this pair for £15. Has the number 71 ethced just above another alphanumeric etching saying E05 on both valves.



Dude, these are some great pictures. I can't figure out the codes on your tubes, though. According to the Philips bible, they should have a code that starts with "V" if they are made in Bangalore, India, which they appear to have been. The "E" code should belong to the factory Hyperlec Brive which appears to be in Correza, France. I found another thread with Google which refers to BEL tubes that were made in India with the "E" code as well, so who knows. I'm going to have to hunt down a couple of these and try them.

If anyone wants to have a go with the Philips code book, I found a link to a revision that's newer than mine:

http://eastwoodamps.com/PhilipsCodes.pdf


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> . Are you guys familiar with "black top" getter flash? This is actually a better getter material than the nice chrome looking flash. It took more time, so only a small amount were treated this way. Well, I got six Mullards and two of them are black tops.
> 
> Take care, Merry Christmas.



Just realised,

My brimar/Mullard has a black top. None of the others i have do...

Il stick a pic up soon


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I don't know if it improves the sound, but the black top getter was supposed to improve the life of the tube. They are a rarer tube. I mean I have gone through Mullards and I will get one every 20 or so.

Wow! I made some killer little deals. A guy was selling a Westinghouse BP and it tested it at 42-44 on a TV-7. I'm looking at his picture. It's a friggin RCA. Starting bid $9.99. I didn't think anyone else was going to bid on it so I put in $13.99. There were two other bidders. Winning bid, $13.99.

Then for $20.50, I got two, late 50's GE Black Plates. These both tested very strong.

Oh and then I pick up another pair of Sylvania 6CA7's with Double O getters and the guy stated they tested better than NOS. (He was using an emissions tester.)

Well he had three sets and they were all "Buy It Now." The first set I bought was only $99.99. That's cheap compared to a month ago. Then he had another pair like the first, but they had Sylvania in yellow letters on the base. He wanted $125 for those. Then I look at his third offering. My friends, it is the Holy Grail of 6CA7's...very few made. This is the famous "Triple O Getter" tube. Two O's on top and one on the side. I snatched them up for $125. I felt about getting the other pair, but decided I had spent enough money on my amp and other stuff.

I missed the Fed-Ex guy yesterday. I thought it was some tubes from Canada. Well he shows up at 10 AM this morning with my Twister amp already. I mean I could of had it yesterday. That was incredible. I just closed the deal a few days ago. Anyhow, I'm letting it slowly warm up. I don't want to rip it open and have it explode. So my Christmas present made it on time and now I have some extra special tubes for it that should be here before the 1st.


----------



## racko7566

Marty, could you post some sound clips of the twister? Would love to here before and after Nos tubes. Happy holidays.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well right now I've spent a bunch of money...on myself and others. Also, my main frame computer went down (again) and it is in the shop. I do not have any means of doing a digital recording, be it a DVD camera or a digital recorder, but I am working on that. It just seems like money is really going fast and I have looked at Musician's Friend and what their prices are. There is some really neat stuff and usually the prices fall after Christmas. Also, Musician's Friend is closing their clearance center. That sucks! They only had one here at the KC location. I'm going to miss that place. That's where I got my brand new Explorer and Gibson case for $850.

I'm going to have to see where I'm at money wise. This is always a spend, spend, spend time of the year. I've already went overboard on buying these 6CA7's, but at that price, I had to have them. Especially the rare triple getters.

At some point I will get set up for at least some raw wav file recordings. I don't know if I want to do like a YouTube thing. I noticed on one DVD camera that all you had to do was plug the camera into your computer and log on to YouTube and then hit one button on the camera and "WHAM" you are on YouTube. If I went on YouTube, it would have to be in pink spandex with white high heel shoes and a big potato stuffed in my crotch. Then some heavy black eye liner and maybe a light pink lipstick. In other words, I would want to look my best.


----------



## racko7566




----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, any comments on these? Looks like they would bear watching if the test scores are OK. Another black getter flash?

2 PHILIPS r CODE ECC83 / 12AX7 TWIN TRIODE TUBES 1960's


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, any comments on these? Looks like they would bear watching if the test scores are OK. Another black getter flash?



Well those are the first Electrohomes that I have seen with black tops. I'd sure like to know the story behind them. Did they make black tops for certain long term applications? Who knows.

One is fair and the other is a tad weak. That Stark is an emissions tester so once again, on a better tester the numbers will probably come down. That one tube is lopsided and the one side is getting close to the minimum score. Between the seller and that tester, I hope he didn't bump up the bad side to read better. I know you read my post where I got two bum Tele's and I still haven't heard back from the seller. I had to threaten Tina. Yeah Tina. She sold me some bum tubes in August and I have been nice as she was going to find me two really good 7025 RCA's to replace the bad tubes. Well months went by and I finally got nasty three days ago and "Bam" the money was in my PayPal account. So even Tina has issues as a seller. Now I'm dealing with Pamela. 

Well if you can get those cheap I'd say maybe. I'm just a little leery about the testing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

***BUMPING THIS THREAD HARD JUST FOR THE REGULARS ON HERE.***

As you know, I got the TWISTER F3 and I have taken it apart. It is all point to point wiring just like an old style amp. The nice thing is all modern (better) components. I located the bias. It is a black knob (top, middle of main board) that you turn with your fingers. That's nice, but I haven't a clue as to where the meter goes unless you have to use a Bias Rite. I have those, so we will see. I think I'll wait until I hear from TWISTER. I sent them an email with some questions. Anyway, the iron looks good and sufficient for a 50 watt amp. High quality tube sockets. It looks like the covers are missing on the preamp tubes. Those high shoulder sockets accept a twist on shield. Another thing to possibly rectify. Also, all of the pots and jacks are mounted to the face plate. A lot easier to replace than a pot soldered into a PCB. I say by looking at the 450VDC filter caps that the B+ is probably under 425VDC. It looks well made. It should be easy on CP power tubes with that lower plate voltage.

Anyway, I was glad to see that it is truly a point to point amp. Now if I can get the info on biasing, I'll be all set.

Here are some quick pictures.


























Twister-Hand Built Amplification


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

watching these...Guys, your opinions, please.
This should do it for a while, I'm going to upgrade Michael's amps.
quad (4) Telefunken ECC83 ( 12AX7 )<>, ribbet-plates - eBay (item 290384053670 end time Dec-27-09 07:56:58 PST)

4 Telefunken ECC83 12AX7 Ribbed close matched quad - eBay (item 370309367379 end time Dec-27-09 12:05:16 PST)

I also picked these up from the same seller that I'm getting the Brimars from...he gave me 10% off and free shipping...cost me $53 for the 3 BPs
3 Raytheon 12AX7 12AX7A ECC83 Blackplate Tubes Matching - eBay (item 180447362046 end time Dec-23-09 06:16:50 PST)


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty, Nice amp...as my people say: Mazel Tov and use it well!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those Tele's look good, espeically the first set. Lord knows what the price on them will be with 30 minutes to go.

The second group is okay, but when you deal with 1.20 representing "new," then a .20 change is considerable. Don't you agree? I mean on my tester, 22 represent a new "nominal" tube. I extrapolated it and it is about 80 per cent. However, going up just 8 points to 30 represents about 105. So a small change makes a big difference. I'm not saying 1.00 or 1.05 is bad, I'm saying it is a lower value than it appears.

That's why the first guy's tubes are better and he tested them with what is called the "standard" over there in Germany. The Funke tester is very reliable.

Both offer no returns, so once again it is that type of situation where you are taking a gamble that all the tubes really test like they say they do.


----------



## solarburn

The F3 is has arrived. Well get that thing up to room temperature so's you's can let it rip!

I'll be waiting to hear it from Wetville...

Merry Christmas!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cold and ice balling outside right now. I'm doing the solo Christmas. I have a chick I know that's coming to see me on Saturday. What sucks is I have to go look in on my oldest sisters cats. She and her husband went to Houston for Christmas and I got stuck with the cat detail. At least they took their dog to the kennel. My car has over an inch of ice on the windshield. I may not be able to get my door open. 

This has all of the makings of, "Hey sis, you remember the winter of 09?" "You know when the cats died.":eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Cold and ice balling outside right now. I'm doing the solo Christmas. I have a chick I know that's coming to see me on Saturday. What sucks is I have to go look in on my oldest sisters cats. She and her husband went to Houston for Christmas and I got stuck with the cat detail. At least they took their dog to the kennel. My car has over an inch on the windshield. I may not be able to get my door open.
> 
> This has all of the makings of, "Hey sis, you remember the winter of 09?" "You know when the cats died.":eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:



Oh sheet!:eek2:

Freak'n ass BURR! Nice...you have to break out a chisel just get into the car...Flame thrower....?

Good to hear you'll have some body heat to warm ya up on Saturday!

I loves them special house calls...


----------



## MartyStrat54

It will be my luck that she won't be able to make the 70 mile drive. This ice is getting nasty.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It will be my luck that she won't be able to make the 70 mile drive. This ice is getting nasty.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> It will be my luck that she won't be able to make the 70 mile drive. This ice is getting nasty.



Hopefully she'll be able to make it but safety first. 

I live 52 miles north of Green Bay and we have the same crap up here. I had to call off Christmas at my parents down in Chicago because the weather is so bad.

Why am I all of the sudden hearing Riding the Storm Out in my head? 

By the way nice amp Marty. Excellent score. I would like to hear it to. You need to get some recording gear my man.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, stay off that ice and be safe. We don't need to lose you!

Everyone have a great Christmas and I hope Santa brings you all some great glass for the Holidays.... I know he's already been good to me! 

I've got some Amperex and a Mullard and a couple more Philips brands to try out this weekend, thanks to our resident guru. Expect a tone report soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my sister called at 9:30PM. They are not in Houston. Their plane got diverted to St. Louis and they are spending the night there and do not know if they will be able to get to Houston.

She did say she put plenty of food out for the cats. They stay in a special room on the front porch. I'll go over tomorrow and that's probably going to suck.

Well they said it was going to hit and by golly it did.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> ***BUMPING THIS THREAD HARD JUST FOR THE REGULARS ON HERE.***
> 
> As you know, I got the TWISTER F3 and I have taken it apart. It is all point to point wiring just like an old style amp. The nice thing is all modern (better) components. I located the bias. It is a black knob (top, middle of main board) that you turn with your fingers. That's nice, but I haven't a clue as to where the meter goes unless you have to use a Bias Rite. I have those, so we will see. I think I'll wait until I hear from TWISTER. I sent them an email with some questions. Anyway, the iron looks good and sufficient for a 50 watt amp. High quality tube sockets. It looks like the covers are missing on the preamp tubes. Those high shoulder sockets accept a twist on shield. Another thing to possibly rectify. Also, all of the pots and jacks are mounted to the face plate. A lot easier to replace than a pot soldered into a PCB. I say by looking at the 450VDC filter caps that the B+ is probably under 425VDC. It looks well made. It should be easy on CP power tubes with that lower plate voltage.
> 
> Anyway, I was glad to see that it is truly a point to point amp. Now if I can get the info on biasing, I'll be all set.
> 
> Here are some quick pictures.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twister-Hand Built Amplification



whoohoo! jj tubes lol nice amp man! how does it rock?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just sent Solar an email. I am not a fan of JJ's and this entire amp is all JJ's. I have some NOS Sylvania 6CA7's I'm going to put in and of course NOS preamp tubes. I did play it a little tonight and it like the volume up around 6 and the MV to taste. It sounded okay, but I know it will sound better with NOS tubes.

I'm waiting to hear from TWISTER regarding the bias procedure. Once I get that info...lookout. It will run six different power tubes and I'm going to buy some Gold Lion KT66's to see what they sound like.

I redid the tubes in this same amp for a guy from KC. He had put RFT EL34's in for power and I installed a Telefunken in V1. I put GE short Black Plates in V2 and V3. It frickin' rocked through a 212 cab.

I just got it, so it's like a woman. I want to take it slow so I learn all of her secrets.


----------



## Procter2812

Merry Christmas.... 

3 of my best NOS valves are now bust!! One brimar, One Tele, And one Mullard. Im now left with a brimar!

Sad times!... This is a lesson,, you get what you pay for!! Groove tubes haha joking!!

Looks like im gonna be searching for some more soon!


----------



## ken361

so anyone try the EI elites yet?


----------



## ken361

Procter2812 said:


> Merry Christmas....
> 
> 3 of my best NOS valves are now bust!! One brimar, One Tele, And one Mullard. Im now left with a brimar!
> 
> Sad times!... This is a lesson,, you get what you pay for!! Groove tubes haha joking!!
> 
> Looks like im gonna be searching for some more soon!



what happend bad tubes?


----------



## Procter2812

ken361 said:


> what happend bad tubes?



Its happened over a week or so...

I had 4 really good sounding valves. first the Tele went... hissed and hummed, then the brimar, then the Mullard. Now im left with a Mazda/Brimar.

Must not have been the strongest valves. I really like the sound of the Mullard black top aswell!

Not good!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Its happened over a week or so...
> 
> I had 4 really good sounding valves. first the Tele went... hissed and hummed, then the brimar, then the Mullard. Now im left with a Mazda/Brimar.
> 
> Must not have been the strongest valves. I really like the sound of the Mullard black top aswell!
> 
> Not good!



Hey thats a real bummer, well theres plenty of good valves out there its just waiting till they come along at a decent price. I linked to a couple of raytheon baldwin black plates a few posts back, they would be nice, and a decent price to boot. I got this one for Christmas from my wife, I know she paid a lot for it, but hey it is NOS and in pristine condition, i have yet to put it into the amp, been way to busy with family and christmas today.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Hey thats a real bummer, well theres plenty of good valves out there its just waiting till they come along at a decent price. I linked to a couple of raytheon baldwin black plates a few posts back, they would be nice, and a decent price to boot. I got this one for Christmas from my wife, I know she paid a lot for it, but hey it is NOS and in pristine condition, i have yet to put it into the amp, been way to busy with family and christmas today.



Mate that is porn 

bet that sounds awesome!


----------



## MartyStrat54

SPIRIT-What did you pay for the JRP?

KEN-I have used the Ei Elites, they are good tubes. However, some of the last 12AX7's were microphonic. There is only one place that I know that still has Ei's and tha is ARS Electronics.

PROCTER-Something funny is going on in V1. You shouldn't be going through tubes like that. Some supporting component may have failed and the tube may be seeing improper voltages. Take a meter and check the voltages on all of the pins.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> SPIRIT-What did you pay for the JRP?
> 
> KEN-I have used the Ei Elites, they are good tubes. However, some of the last 12AX7's were microphonic. There is only one place that I know that still has Ei's and tha is ARS Electronics.
> 
> PROCTER-Something funny is going on in V1. You shouldn't be going through tubes like that. Some supporting component may have failed and the tube may be seeing improper voltages. Take a meter and check the voltages on all of the pins.



I know it may seem like it... but its in different amps. Iv gone through one in my 800 and one in my TSL.

Im gonna do what you said and take voltage reading from the plates but i think its just with getting cheaper priced/lower testing valves.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I said on this thread many times that as long as the heater filament is glowing, the tube will work to some degree. I don't know if you read that post many, many pages back where I put tubes in a customer's Fender Twin. Due to his playing style and what he wanted, I ended up putting some pretty low testing 12AX7's in his amp and he loved the sound. That had to be close to a year ago and he hasn't needed any new tubes. So I can only assume they are still putting out. 

Well it could be a coincidence, but it is odd that several tubes crapped out that close together. Keep me posted.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I said on this thread many times that as long as the heater filament is glowing, the tube will work to some degree. I don't know if you read that post many, many pages back where I put tubes in a customer's Fender Twin. Due to his playing style and what he wanted, I ended up putting some pretty low testing 12AX7's in his amp and he loved the sound. That had to be close to a year ago and he hasn't needed any new tubes. So I can only assume they are still putting out.
> 
> Well it could be a coincidence, but it is odd that several tubes crapped out that close together. Keep me posted.



Yeah will do pal...

I havent informed you fully.... basically the valves all have started to make noise... whether its a hiss... whistle...

The heaters are still glowing...

I was just playing around with them in V1 and first to go was the Tele... in the 800... then the Brimar in the TSL... then the mullard in the Tsl all in V!.

The Mullard went out with a weird radio frequency sound... then i tapped the valve and it made the weirdest sound... so i tapped all the others and they were fine.


its just pot luck on what valves you get and what cond they are in.

Im quite enjoying messing with all the CP a nd two NOS i have left...

Iv got the Mazda in V1 a Harma 7025 in V2 a Brimar in V3 and a JJ in V4.
In my TSL... Its sounding quite smooth. Good enogh for the min anyway until i get some new NOS valves..


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> SPIRIT-What did you pay for the JRP?
> 
> KEN-I have used the Ei Elites, they are good tubes. However, some of the last 12AX7's were microphonic. There is only one place that I know that still has Ei's and tha is ARS Electronics.
> 
> PROCTER-Something funny is going on in V1. You shouldn't be going through tubes like that. Some supporting component may have failed and the tube may be seeing improper voltages. Take a meter and check the voltages on all of the pins.



They are available from a UK ebay dealer at £32 a pop. I know thats a shed load of cash, but my excuse would be I mentioned them to my wife when i was just starting out on the NOs thing and didnt realise that this was on the very expensive side of expensive. Ah wel it was for christmas anyway, so im not going to complain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Solar are you going to get one of those MJN1987's? If so, I can only say that the workmanship will be top-notched. If the economy was better and I could unload some of these other amps, I would like to get one. I don't need a 100 watt amp anymore. It's a lot cheaper to own a 50. Also, I can take certain guitar speakers and make my 50 sound louder than a 100. There's more than one way to achieve SPL.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Solar are you going to get one of those MJN1987's? If so, I can only say that the workmanship will be top-notched. If the economy was better and I could unload some of these other amps, I would like to get one. I don't need a 100 watt amp anymore. It's a lot cheaper to own a 50. Also, I can take certain guitar speakers and make my 50 sound louder than a 100. There's more than one way to achieve SPL.



Yeah I've been sending clips of amps I like so Jon knows what the hell I'm trying to tell him when I say I like certain characteristics...such as a bit of sag, juicy/ballzy mids and notes that bloom. I want the response to what I'm playing to be quick even though I want some sag too. I sent him a clip of the Dr. Z Monza to illustrate alot of what I'm after. I'm pretty sure he's got my number figured out now and he sent me the MJN1987 build specs/cost to check out.

So it looks like I'm saving for a MJN1987 highly dynamic orgasmic 50watter. You know the build will be immaculate.


----------



## RiverRatt

You guys are going to have to stop this amp talk. I DON'T NEED ANOTHER AMP! I had a dream this morning that I went back to work for the music store I worked at for 15 years. They had a Carr Mercury in stock for $599 that I could get for half that if I went back to work there. Yes, it had NOS tubes - I looked.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You guys are going to have to stop this amp talk. I DON'T NEED ANOTHER AMP! I had a dream this morning that I went back to work for the music store I worked at for 15 years. They had a Carr Mercury in stock for $599 that I could get for half that if I went back to work there. Yes, it had NOS tubes - I looked.



We can't help ourselves and you know it!

Sometimes I have this dream about going into a shop and playing all the killer amps made. I always get interrupted though by something else happening in the dream. 

Have you been sampling tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have dreams were everything is warm and when I wake up I pissed myself. Good thing it only happens about 15 times a month.

Yeah, I think this tube/amp addiction is starting to take its toll on me. "Oh I have to have it." Cha-ching. "I'm buying this." Cha-ching.

That Cha-ching is making my bank balance get smaller.

Well, I'll see you guys later. I got some tubes to buy.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Have you been sampling tubes?



Not since Thursday. I'm hoping to get some more testing done today, but the kids are lobbying hard to go shopping so they can spend all their Christmas cash. I can't decide if I want a new Apple i-something or tubes... probably tubes. I'm really liking the hot Amperex, but so far it's the only one that's really grabbed my attention. It sounds really smooth in V2 with the Bugle Boy in V1, and it's a monster in V1 - great pinch harmonics and saturation without a trace of mud. The Electrohome is a really nice tube - not as hairy as the Matsushitas but still has that great Mullard sound. I still haven't tried the JJ E34Ls you sent, but definitely today or tomorrow. I'll try to get them back to you this coming week.

I'm having dreams about finding tubes, too. This is seriously an addiction.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Not since Thursday. I'm hoping to get some more testing done today, but the kids are lobbying hard to go shopping so they can spend all their Christmas cash. I can't decide if I want a new Apple i-something or tubes... probably tubes. I'm really liking the hot Amperex, but so far it's the only one that's really grabbed my attention. It sounds really smooth in V2 with the Bugle Boy in V1, and it's a monster in V1 - great pinch harmonics and saturation without a trace of mud. The Electrohome is a really nice tube - not as hairy as the Matsushitas but still has that great Mullard sound. I still haven't tried the JJ E34Ls you sent, but definitely today or tomorrow. I'll try to get them back to you this coming week.
> 
> I'm having dreams about finding tubes, too. This is seriously an addiction.



Hahaha. No hurry on the 34L's. Take your time. Man that Amperex sounds like it kicks some ass as a V1 tube. Any of those kicking the BP out?


----------



## RiverRatt

No. I still like the Tele/BP combo that I started with best, but if I didn't have that I would be more than happy with the others. It's not that the others are bad, the Tele and Raytheon are just that good. It's really more of a tonal preference than a good or bad thing. They are all great.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> No. I still like the Tele/BP combo that I started with best, but if I didn't have that I would be more than happy with the others. It's not that the others are bad, the Tele and Raytheon are just that good. It's really more of a tonal preference than a good or bad thing. They are all great.



I feel the same with mine. I'm having some good tones happen with the others but I still like the Tele/BP best.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buying tubes is like going to a casino. It doesn't take lone to blow $400.

Oh well...such is life.

Hey Joe and Alan, did you happen to go through all 10 pages of GreenGirls offerings. She has a Raytheon Select just like mine, except it didn't have the slant getter. However, it stated, "Made in Japan." Way back when I was trying to dissect this tube, I brought up the fact that a lot of tube equipment went to Japan. Anyway, I was going to buy it out of curiosity, but someone else had bought it. At least I know it is a Japanese tube.

As I told Joe. Her prices are such that if you buy, you need to be the end user. There is no room for mark up. She sells her Telefunkens and Amperex's at about $45+ per tube. 

I need to find me a large German organ.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just won another BP. I hope it's good - the seller didn't have test numbers, but had excellent feedback.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buying tubes is like going to a casino. It doesn't take lone to blow $400.
> 
> Oh well...such is life.
> 
> Hey Joe and Alan, did you happen to go through all 10 pages of GreenGirls offerings. She has a Raytheon Select just like mine, except it didn't have the slant getter. However, it stated, "Made in Japan." Way back when I was trying to dissect this tube, I brought up the fact that a lot of tube equipment went to Japan. Anyway, I was going to buy it out of curiosity, but someone else had bought it. At least I know it is a Japanese tube.
> 
> As I told Joe. Her prices are such that if you buy, you need to be the end user. There is no room for mark up. She sells her Telefunkens and Amperex's at about $45+ per tube.



I usually only make it through 3 or 4 pages. She always has nice stuff, and her prices are not the cheapest online, but usually fair. I bought a Tele and a Mullard from her for around $30 each in the last few months and both were excellent tubes. I'm waiting to hear Joe's report on the Realistic Lifetime tube - if I like what he hears, I may go looking for one.



MartyStrat54 said:


> I need to find me a large German organ.



I wouldn't touch this with a 10-foot Pole.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buying tubes is like going to a casino. It doesn't take lone to blow $400.
> 
> Oh well...such is life.
> 
> Hey Joe and Alan, did you happen to go through all 10 pages of GreenGirls offerings. She has a Raytheon Select just like mine, except it didn't have the slant getter. However, it stated, "Made in Japan." Way back when I was trying to dissect this tube, I brought up the fact that a lot of tube equipment went to Japan. Anyway, I was going to buy it out of curiosity, but someone else had bought it. At least I know it is a Japanese tube.
> 
> As I told Joe. Her prices are such that if you buy, you need to be the end user. There is no room for mark up. She sells her Telefunkens and Amperex's at about $45+ per tube.
> 
> I need to find me a large German organ.



I just got the one tube and skidattled off before I found something else I wanted. 

Yeah I just plan on using it. Hope it sounds good like the other one I have. That one's still go'n strong by the way.


----------



## wegman

Hey guys. 

I got some pics of the tube I can't identify. Can some one please identify this tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it has the seam top, but no cut-outs on the plates. This could be an original tube that came with the amp. Marshall was using Ei's until 2002.

Looks like and Ei copy of a Tele Smooth Plate.

Alan?


----------



## Procter2812

wegman said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> I got some pics of the tube I can't identify. Can some one please identify this tube?



Looks a lot like a Telefunken. I have one and it looks pretty much the same as that.

has it got a diamond on the bottom?

And are there four seams? they will be in an X pattern


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it has the seam top, but no cut-outs on the plates. This could be an original tube that came with the amp. Marshall was using Ei's until 2002.
> 
> Looks like and Ei copy of a Tele Smooth Plate.
> 
> Alan?



That tube is out of the organ. I have no clue what it is. You were able to see the seems on the top. Those are seems right?


----------



## wegman

Procter2812 said:


> Looks a lot like a Telefunken. I have one and it looks pretty much the same as that.
> 
> has it got a diamond on the bottom?
> 
> And are there four seams? they will be in an X pattern



Yes there are four seams at the top in an X pattern. One seam is not as pronounced as the others but it is there.

No diamond on the bottom that I can see.


----------



## Procter2812

Well its more like a square inside the circle which is formed into the bottom of the valve.

The seams sound about right. all the one on mine are not perfect.

Does it sound good? thats the main thing


----------



## wegman

Procter2812 said:


> Well its more like a square inside the circle which is formed into the bottom of the valve.
> 
> The seams sound about right. all the one on mine are not perfect.
> 
> Does it sound good? thats the main thing



Yes it has a sound all it's own compared to any other tube I have. Very unique sounding.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The owner of Twister has already contacted me twice. Apparently my first email got lost in Cyberspace. Anyway, he gave me all the info on the amp. Good thing I have my generic Bias Rite because this baby doesn't bias up like a Marshall. I'll have to plug in the sockets, put the tubes in Bias Rite sockets and then take the meter to the leads off of the Bias Rite.

Man, the B+ on this is 475. I was thinking it would be around 425.

And the preamp tubes? They're like Weggie's amp.

Here's the function of all three preamp tubes.

V1A Gain stage
V1B Cathode Follower

V2A Gain Stage
V2B Gain Stage

V3 A&B Phase inverter

Plate voltage on the power tubes with the preamp switch in the up position should be around 475 give or take depending on your wall voltage.

Three gain stages in this amp. That should be enough. Now I know how to tube it.


----------



## Procter2812

Man thats quite high for a B+ voltage both my Marshalls are lower than that..

you gonna go with NOS or CP power tubes... Obviously its gonna be NOS... but you gonna try out the 6CA7's or Gold Lion KT66's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, now I know what tubes I am going to use. Since V1A is gain, I will probably go 26-24 in V1. In V2 I will go 29-29. If that is too hot, I will change to taste, but it will probably be something like that. The nice thing is I can still stick a Tele in V1 and a Black Plate in V2. Yeah!

Since I haven't biased with the Bias Rite in a while, I will start out with a set of NOS 6CA7's that tested at 77-77. If I fug them up, I won't be too pissed off. Once I get the hang of the sensitivity of the bias control, then I will be using some rare Sylvania Triple O Getters in this amp. 

Eventually, I will be getting rid of my 100 watt amps. I like the 50's and they are cheaper to operate.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, now I know what tubes I am going to use. Since V1A is gain, I will probably go 26-24 in V1. In V2 I will go 29-29. If that is too hot, I will change to taste, but it will probably be something like that. The nice thing is I can still stick a Tele in V1 and a Black Plate in V2. Yeah!
> 
> Since I haven't biased with the Bias Rite in a while, I will start out with a set of NOS 6CA7's that tested at 77-77. If I fug them up, I won't be too pissed off. Once I get the hang of the sensitivity of the bias control, then I will be using some rare Sylvania Triple O Getters in this amp.
> 
> Eventually, I will be getting rid of my 100 watt amps. I like the 50's and they are cheaper to operate.



Sweet sounds good Marty!

I was reading one of your posts about you thinking about getting rid of you 100 watters, when you were talking to Joe. And it made me think.. Do I really need a 100 watt amp?

More expensive to run-yes... do i ever use 100 watts... no!

I like my 800 too much to let go of it!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it has the seam top, but no cut-outs on the plates. This could be an original tube that came with the amp. Marshall was using Ei's until 2002.
> 
> Looks like and Ei copy of a Tele Smooth Plate.
> 
> Alan?



Here's one of my Marshall-branded Ei ECC83s. This one came out of an amp made in 2000. I'd guess that John's tube is an Ei, too. Does it flash when you first power it up? Ei's will flash, but Teles won't.


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Here's one of my Marshall-branded Ei ECC83s. This one came out of an amp made in 2000. I'd guess that John's tube is an Ei, too. Does it flash when you first power it up? Ei's will flash, but Teles won't.



Hey Ratt.

No it doesn't flash when it starts up. This tube did not come out of my amp, it came out of the organ I found.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the pictures Alan. I believe the pictures show that it is indeed an Ei 12AX7. These are good tubes, especially the older one's. Very close to a Tele in sound. They aren't as sweet sounding as the Tele, but close.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Sweet sounds good Marty!
> 
> I was reading one of your posts about you thinking about getting rid of you 100 watters, when you were talking to Joe. And it made me think.. Do I really need a 100 watt amp?
> 
> More expensive to run-yes... do i ever use 100 watts... no!
> 
> I like my 800 too much to let go of it!



Well it's easy to see, but hard to explain. 100 watt amps have been the standard for so long. If you are in a Hard Rock or Heavy Metal band that is getting famous, you are going to have 100 watt heads and full stacks. However, the average musician that gigs does not need a 100 watt amp. I mean I see pro's playing with 20 watt amps. A microphone does wonders through a PA system. I am getting to the point where it is tough for me to move some of my equipment and so lately I've been asking myself. "Why?"

My new 50 watt Twister head weighs 30 pounds. I can handle that. I'm going to build a custom 212 cab and that won't be too bad. I can handle that. I'm through taking the TSL122 out of my house. It weighs a ton. My 602's weigh almost as much. Then you have to look at 412 cabs. Just a pain in the ass to load in anything but a van or pickup. I'm really seeing myself with 50 watt heads and 212 cabs.

Don't worry, my Strat is lighter than a Les Paul. I can handle it.


----------



## RiverRatt

wegman said:


> Hey Ratt.
> 
> No it doesn't flash when it starts up. This tube did not come out of my amp, it came out of the organ I found.



Curious. All my Ei's flash. A real Telefunken wouldn't. I've never heard of a Tele with a pinched top, either. Both Ei and Telefunken are listed in the Philips factory codes. I don't know if this means that Philips owned them, or that they bought from them and re-labeled. 

I'll bet that tube ended up in the organ when it was serviced. Ei has been making tubes for a long time. Maybe these earlier ones didn't flash? Look at these photos - Tubemonger has some Ei's in their library from the 1960's. 

Ei ECC83 12AX7 - Late 1960s Smooth Plate Philips or Edicron Labels - Nish Yugoslavia


----------



## wegman

RiverRatt said:


> Curious. All my Ei's flash. A real Telefunken wouldn't. I've never heard of a Tele with a pinched top, either. Both Ei and Telefunken are listed in the Philips factory codes. I don't know if this means that Philips owned them, or that they bought from them and re-labeled.
> 
> I'll bet that tube ended up in the organ when it was serviced. Ei has been making tubes for a long time. Maybe these earlier ones didn't flash? Look at these photos - Tubemonger has some Ei's in their library from the 1960's.
> 
> Ei ECC83 12AX7 - Late 1960s Smooth Plate Philips or Edicron Labels - Nish Yugoslavia



I agree I believe it to be an Ei as well but it does not flash. I powered up the amp in pitch darkness and there was no flash. The tube just lit up gradually like the rest of them do.

It's a pretty sweet sounding tube by the way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you look at the bottom of the tube, in between the pins, does it have a impressed circle? It could be an RFT Tele clone.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you look at the bottom of the tube, in between the pins, does it have a impressed circle? It could be an RFT Tele clone.



Hey Marty. Congrats on forum member of the year.

Yes, it appears to have a circle in the center of the pins that is impressed some what.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wegman said:


> Hey Marty. Congrats on forum member of the year.
> 
> Yes, it appears to have a circle in the center of the pins that is impressed some what.



Well like I said, it could be a smooth plate RFT/Tele clone.

Yeah, I responded to the "Member of the Year" thing. I'm honored, but it was based on just a handful of votes. Basically, all the nominee's are winners.


----------



## wegman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well like I said, it could be a smooth plate RFT/Tele clone.
> 
> Yeah, I responded to the "Member of the Year" thing. I'm honored, but it was based on just a handful of votes. Basically, all the nominee's are winners.



I read your response. I think it was excellent and showed a tremendous amount of class. 

This tube sounds excellent. Very smooth and defined. It is great in V1. It bumped the black plate out of V1. The Electrohome sounds great in V3 I find, it bumped out a GE.


----------



## Procter2812

Hopefully Might get a few tubes tomorrow 

Its my Birthday


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I have all the proper equipment to bias my amp. Man, this thing has high B+. That's one ass kicking power tranny. Hard to say what it is rated at, but with no load, it is 498. With a load it is around 475. 

Now, I checked the bias and it was off and lopsided. I checked all the voltages and I set the bias per pin 5. I could have used my SRS Bias Check, but at this point I had the tubes pulled and this way was easier, because the bias adjustment is under the chassis. I set it for 39mV per tube and installed a set of Sylvania Double O Getter 6CA7's that I had in stock. 

Here are my preamp tubes.

V1-Telefunken Rib Plate-26/23 (V1A is gain, V1B is Cathode Follower)
V2-Raytheon Black Plate-27/29 (2nd and 3rd gain stages)
V3-Sylvania Gray Plate-29/27 (Phase Inverter)

Put it on Standby. Warmed it up and flipped the switch. No red plating. Good. Plugged in the Explorer into the high input. Oh yeah, it has balls and this is with the VOL at 4 and the MV at 3. A buzzsaw. I tried the guitar in the low input and I think that may be the way to go with a 498 and 500 pickups. The Strat sounds incredible through it. First time I ever ran the 6CA7's with a Strat. I used to get a really unique sound with my Strat through a 401. I'm getting it now with the 6CA7's. Plus, I feel safe having them in an amp running that high B+. I know that Sylvania Fat Boy is good for over 600V (rated at 800V).

Well, as you know I can't give a complete review on this amp until I've had it for a while, but I think what gives this amp its character is the fact that it runs the high B+ just like some of the old classic Marshall's. I wouldn't feel comfortable with CP power tubes in this amp. It had the Chinese EL34B's in it and one had a bias of 29 and the other has 42. It didn't sound too good when I first played it, but my experience told me it was a bias issue. I checked the tubes on the tube tester and they were off by 15 points. Both tubes were marked with a bias of 40mV. Needless to say, I wouldn't even give these tubes away, but what do you do with them?

Well, more to come as I get to play it more, but it sounds a lot better than the day I got it. The owner of Twister is one great guy and personally emailed me with all of the info I requested. That's a big plus.


----------



## solarburn

Well I'm glad it got better with a little TLC...know how hehe. Like you said now you just need to spend some quality time with it and eek out them wondrous tones in it.

Man where is this forum member of the year? I missed it. I would have voted for ya but I didn't even get to participate hehe. Feel left out...

Did you win a haughtee?!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to have to start looking at other parts of the forum, too. I completely missed that. Congrats, Marty - I think it is deserved!

I'm boxing up some tubes for you two. Marty, did you get my PM about price/etc. from yesterday? Just for S & G, give me a price on the Bugle Boy and the Eico/Amperex. I might do both.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the kudo's, but I'm not going to get all excited about it. If you read my response, you'll know what I mean. 

JOE-I wished I won a hottie. The weekend date never happened. We had a two day severe blizzard. There is two feet of snow on average on the ground. If you parked your car on the road, the snow plow buried your car. I watched two people spend three hours digging their car out in 21 degree weather and still snowing. I was smart. I bought all of my provisions and I just holed up in my house. I was shocked when the FedEx guy delivered my amp. It had been snowing, but the roads were still okay. Ten hours later, the wind was frickin' howling and the snow was blowing and coming down hard. No chickee. We had phone sex. I put my phone on vibrate and had her keep calling me up.

ALAN-Yes I received your MSG. I've been hammered and then there is the new amp...so I will get in touch with you. Thanks.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for the kudo's, but I'm not going to get all excited about it. If you read my response, you'll know what I mean.
> 
> JOE-I wished I won a hottie. The weekend date never happened. We had a two day severe blizzard. There is two feet of snow on average on the ground. If you parked your car on the road, the snow plow buried your car. I watched two people spend three hours digging their car out in 21 degree weather and still snowing. I was smart. I bought all of my provisions and I just holed up in my house. I was shocked when the FedEx guy delivered my amp. It had been snowing, but the roads were still okay. Ten hours later, the wind was frickin' howling and the snow was blowing and coming down hard. No chickee. We had phone sex. I put my phone on vibrate and had her keep calling me up.
> 
> ALAN-Yes I received your MSG. I've been hammered and then there is the new amp...so I will get in touch with you. Thanks.



I'd expect nuthing less...


----------



## racko7566

Happy B-Day Procter.


----------



## solarburn

Happy B-Day from Mr.Sunshine here too Procter!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Happy Birthday to you, Happy Birthday to you...

Happy Birthday Dear Procter.

Happy Birthday to you.

(You're taking a beating over on the "Tell A Lie" thread.)

Happy Birthday...have a good one.


----------



## racko7566

Dudes, I got it bad.....REAL bad.....always thinking about damn tubes and where I could find some good ones in some old radio or something in some garage. And while I'm day dreaming tubes and flipping the channels on tv, I roll across the wizard of Oz right at the part where the dog pulls back the curtain and exposes Oz as a fake, and I'll be a m%$$#$ F%$#$# theres this big machinery hes talking into and flippin switches on and the whole top of this thing is loaded with old tubes, a row of like twenty, check it out. Sorry for the useless info.....F%$#%$$ tubes.


----------



## solarburn

Thats not bad...

Thats good eyes!

Lets go get em'...

Click your heels 3x's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did and I got an erection. I guess it had something to do with the pair of red girl's shoes I was wearing.

Hey...big ole tubes were used for years in the movies as part of the mad scientist's lab. If you look at some of the real old ones the high voltage comes through the top of the tube. Old tubes had more gas in them (weak vacuums) and that made the tubes glow brighter. You got to remember that the vacuum tube was developed from a light bulb and all light bulb companies became vacuum tube companies.

The first vacuum tube, the Fleming Valve was invented in 1904!!!

Holy Moly. It's hard to believe, but by 1935 the tube industry was in full swing.

The 12AX7 was released in late 1947. Earlier that year, the first working transistor was introduced. It took about another 20 years to get the transistor perfected. As I say, I try to buy tubes from 1966 on down. The transistor introduction sort of soured the quality of American tubes.

Thank god for European tubes.


----------



## Procter2812

Cheers guys will do!

No tubes for me! but with all the dough i got i sure wll be buyin some! then sell my TSL and get a hollowbody 

Anyway time to take you all down at the Tell a Lie thread


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats, Procter! 

I've got one coming up in a couple of weeks. Doesn't it suck to have a birthday right after Christmas?


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's an interesting thread from Vintage Amps. Tube Tramp talking about Amperex and buying tubes with EVH in the old days. Joe, he even mentions Realistic Lifetime tubes.

Vintage Amps Bulletin Board &bull; View topic - Amperex ECC83 Favorites?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

RR, that is an interesting thread...I have to check the Amperex tubes I have just out of curiousity.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here's an interesting thread from Vintage Amps. Tube Tramp talking about Amperex and buying tubes with EVH in the old days. Joe, he even mentions Realistic Lifetime tubes.
> 
> Vintage Amps Bulletin Board &bull; View topic - Amperex ECC83 Favorites?



Yeah that was a cool read. My Realistic LT is on the way but my Marshall is on its way to Jon Wilder.

He talked me into letting him pet it too...:eek2:

Now I'll be playing my NT exclusively while he penetrates my amp...I mean works on my baby....er...Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah that was a cool read. My Realistic LT is on the way but my Marshall is on its way to Jon Wilder.
> 
> He talked me into letting him pet it too...:eek2:
> 
> Now I'll be playing my NT exclusively while he penetrates my amp...I mean works on my baby....er...Marshall.



What are you having done to the DSL?


----------



## RiverRatt

30stringsandblackdog said:


> RR, that is an interesting thread...I have to check the Amperex tubes I have just out of curiousity.



I really like that Eico Amperex I got from Marty. I think it's the hottest tube I've got. Well, maybe one of the Matsushitas is hotter, but it has a lot of grit where the Amperex is a smoother tube. Both have more pronounced mids, which is what I'm after. I tried out an Amperex Bugle Boy that really had some nice, throaty mids but it was a little compressed sounding and not as articulate as the other.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> What are you having done to the DSL?



Jon's going to check a volume problem I'm having from about 4 on up. Seems to be starving and running a bit thin when that should be the sweet spot for it. So in goes the MM PT...

Also I want his relay switch so I can run either the choke or resistor as I want. 

I told him to make it into a Super DSL50 and I'd let him take credit for his work.

Should be kick'n more ass when I get it back. We may try the C12 mod. I'm interested in this to mellow out some of the trebliness on the red channel but only if it sounds good. We'll have to see on that one.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I really like that Eico Amperex I got from Marty. I think it's the hottest tube I've got. Well, maybe one of the Matsushitas is hotter, but it has a lot of grit where the Amperex is a smoother tube. Both have more pronounced mids, which is what I'm after. I tried out an Amperex Bugle Boy that really had some nice, throaty mids but it was a little compressed sounding and not as articulate as the other.



Yeah that Realistic rips. Usually I don't care much for the high gainers but I like the hair on that one. Man I wish we could find a stash of them.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah that Realistic rips. Usually I don't care much for the high gainers but I like the hair on that one. Man I wish we could find a stash of them.



I found another pair. I don't know this seller, but they look good. They have a slanted halo getter like Marty's. I've about spent all that I had set aside for tubes, so grab 'em if you want.

MATSUSHITA=12AX7 x2=TUBE AMPLIFIER=PREAMP=TUNER=

I've noticed that a lot of these auctions state that Mullard sold all their equipment to Matsushita, therefore these are the same as Mullard tubes. From what I've found, Matsushita has been making tubes for Philips on Philips equipment at least as far back as 1958. Some are Amperex copies, too. I wish someone would write a book about the Philips companies while there are still people around who remember. There seems to be so much misinformation out there about exactly what Philips did.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> Congrats, Procter!
> 
> I've got one coming up in a couple of weeks. Doesn't it suck to have a birthday right after Christmas?



Cheers dude...

In a way yeah... but in a way no because you sorta get bombarded with money and presents etc 

oh and beeeerrrr


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I found another pair. I don't know this seller, but they look good. They have a slanted halo getter like Marty's. I've about spent all that I had set aside for tubes, so grab 'em if you want.
> 
> MATSUSHITA=12AX7 x2=TUBE AMPLIFIER=PREAMP=TUNER=
> 
> I've noticed that a lot of these auctions state that Mullard sold all their equipment to Matsushita, therefore these are the same as Mullard tubes. From what I've found, Matsushita has been making tubes for Philips on Philips equipment at least as far back as 1958. Some are Amperex copies, too. I wish someone would write a book about the Philips companies while there are still people around who remember. There seems to be so much misinformation out there about exactly what Philips did.



Thanks Alan. I pulled the trigger. Lets hope they are good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here are some bits and pieces that I just pasted on this post.

Matsushita tube were made on original Mullard equipment supplied by Philips.

Philips bought Mullard back in 1927 (1927!!!) and had put the Philips name on many Mullard made tubes. After all they owned the place. Look at the manufacturer code and you will find its a Mullard by code and date. (But by checking the codes, it could be a Philips tube by MiniWatt, Amperex, Valvo, etc., but marked as a Mullard, or vice versa.)

Tube manufacturers bought tubes from other manufacturers regularly, this was and is common practice since 1940's.

Matsushita and Panasonic are one in the same and they both have the same EIA code of 130.

Some dealers will go by the actual type number makings to make a reasonable guess at the REAL factory. RCA for example is known to place the type number in a rectangle with the corners cut at 45 degrees, GE USA often used a style that looks like a stencil, with a pattern of dots beside it for an internal code. Sylvania was known to use a marking that has a goldish tone. Some factories put the type number on the end of the tube, others close to the base. In the USA, it is illegal to sell goods with an incorrect country of origin indicated, so that can be a clue, but as you can see from the Philips Source list, a tube can have original markings that say "Mullard, Made in Great Britain" and still be actually built by EMI, Ferannti or Thorn. (And let's not forget what I told you about RCA selling Japanese tubes in boxes marked, "Made in USA." Yeah, the box was made in the USA, but the tube wasn't. This was allowed to fly.)

(This solidifies my point about JAN tubes.) Some argue that the last of the tubes produced for the military in the 1980s may not be the best. By then, about the only plant in the US that was still capable of bidding on military contracts was either the old Ken-Rad/GE plant in KY that by that time had converted to almost strictly specialty tubes by its new owners MPD Components, Inc, or one of the old Sylvania tube plants that by that time had been transferred to Philips as part of the sale of the Sylvania ECG replacement semiconductor group.

If you find any JAN tubes with 1980s packaging dates you will often find they look like Sylvania parts, but are labeled "Philips ECG". It is somewhat ironic that the JAN tubes are often a bit cheaper than civilian tubes, because for some types there are more of them out there. I have old catalogs that show that JAN spec tubes commanded a the time because of the extra testing they were subjected to to earn the JAN designation. 

Remember that magic point in time I always talk about? It is 1966. After 1966, tubes were being blown out for as little as 35 cents apiece. Makes you want to cry, considering many of the tubes are now worth $150 each.

Script from a thread on Japanese tubes featuring another dumbass EBAY Seller who was really trying to drum up the bidding.

Postby TubeGetter on Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:59 pm

OMG, I just read that auction description. Talk about misinformation. 

"YES ITS TRUE WHEN MULLARD QUIT MAKING EL34 THEY SOLD THEIR TOOLING TO HITACHI OF JAPAN WHO MADE EXCELLENT SOUNDING/PERFORMING EL34"

No, Philips contracted some tooling to Matsushita while Mullard was still making tubes. These are Matsushita's, not Hitachi.

"WHICH WERE EXACT COPIES OF THE MULLARD EXCEPT FOR SOME SMALL DIFFERENCES."

Exact copies but still have differences? LOL. The tubes look similar, but there's big differences in how they were made, and thus why they sound so different.

"YOU ARE BIDDING ON A VERY HARD TO FIND HIGH TESTING QUAD OF HITACHI EL34."

Yes, Hitachi are very rare....but these aren't Hitachi.

"IF YOU ARE TRYING VARIOUS EL34 TYPES THIS 1970S VINTAGE 6CA7 POWER PENTODES ARE KNOWN FOR EXCELLENT SOUND AND ARE A MUST HAVE FOR THE COLLECTOR! IN FACT AFTER MULLARD STOPPED MAKING EL34 THEY SOLD MANY JAPANESE MADE EL34 WITH THEIR BRAND NAME!!!!!!!"

Has anyone ever seen any Matsu labeled as Mullard? I don't think I ever have. I know a lot of people accidentally call them Mullards on Ebay because they look similar, but have there ever been Mullard logo's on them? I can't think of seeing any. If they did, they certainly didn't relabel many.....you just don't see them around.


I just got finished researching all the Japanese 12AX7's ever made with pics thanks to a tube guru in Japan's help. I still need to do the EL34 and EL84's, and I'll get the skinny on all the those soon so we can put the speculation to rest.



New Old Stock original box. A great early 1970s blackplate, made in the Mullard Matsushita Japan factory, and identical in construction to the RCA blackplates.

So apparently Alan, the truth is Philips "owned" Mullard and when the tube business was no longer profitable in certain base countries, Philips took some of Mullards equipment (and they had a lot of it) and took it to a cheap labor nation which was Japan at the time. So it was Philips owned Mullard equipment used to make the Matsushita's.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

> Philips bought Mullard back in 1927 (1927!!!) and had put the Philips name on many Mullard made tubes. After all they owned the place. Look at the manufacturer code and you will find its a Mullard by code and date. (But by checking the codes, it could be a Philips tube by MiniWatt, Amperex, Valvo, etc., but marked as a Mullard, or vice versa.)



This statement alone makes my head swim. It implies that most of the valves that i have been getting my hands on recently are actually philips? So who made the brimars I have? or is this one of those how long is a piece of string questions?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I have often wondered that myself. Brimar is not listed in the Philips code book, so I would have to say they were a self supported company.

However, Mullard (actually Philips) made tubes that were sold as Brimars and Brimar could have done the same for Mullard, although I thing it was more of Mullard selling to Brimar. After all Mullard had six or seven massive plants and produced thousands of different tubes everyday.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, what do you make of this tube? Ratheon BP?


----------



## ken361

watford tubes in the UK has these 12ax7's, look kinda different what do you guys think?
Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83-STR/HARMA-BAL PHASE


----------



## RiverRatt

It's the same tube as a JJ ECC83S.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey guys, what do you make of this tube? Ratheon BP?



No other clues? Golden color ink? How is the part number presented? I can't tell much from that picture. You say it's a Black Plate. What's it look like up against your Black Plate? Looks like a square or "D" Getter. Does it have that bright, shiny plate appearance?


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't know - I don't have it yet. I looked on tubemongerlib.com and the getter looks like a Sylvania. It should still make a good V3 or V4 tube if it's not good in V2.
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/12AX7/Sylvania+12AX7+1950s+JHS+Long+Black+Plate+Square+Getter+-+USA.jpg.html

I've got this Sonotone coming from greengirl... it tested at 1850/1800 on her Hickok so it should be strong. You said you had two coming, right? Were they the Pilot/Sonotone tubes she had listed earlier? I think you're gonna like them. They aren't as middy as a Philips tube, but they have more edge than other RCAs.


----------



## core

Hi guys, been trying to follow this thread for awhile and wow it's really gettin' deep!

Anyway I'm about to take my 95' 6100LM in for a full revalve and check up. It is in need of it bad. Right now it has 4 6L6GC Electro Harmonix (2 yellow and 2 red label valves) and the stock 7 Marshall ECC83's for the preamps. I mostly play at low volume with my master at 1-2 and using the channel volume to crank it to the right level for me. Eventually I'll be playing at stage levels but right now it sounds good but not great! I'm pretty sure they are going bad as there is a lot of static, noise and a little crackle, when I run an XLR line to my Presonus line inputs for recording. Plus there are slight volume changes coming through the monitors. The noise is so great through my recording gear it takes up about half the line levels with the input gain even set low. It seems there are ground issues as well that I'm having the tech look into so I really want him to freshen up the whole system.

I know the amp is well worth the work as it sounds great running through my 1960AV but I really want it to shine in the whole system. Funny thing is it DOES sound great running through the cab but once I run into recording gear it all falls apart. Eventually I will mic it but I like to record at all hours and I can't wake the wife and baby at 2am haha!

My amp tech can get JJ's and I'm sure other types of valves and at this point I think CP valves are the way to go for me. While following this thread has been educational, I feel I'm out of my element to go with NOS with so many preamp valves that the 6100LM needs.

My question is, do you guys think it would be ok to do a straight JJ 6l6GC / JJ ECC83S valve replacement or would there be other preamp valves on the market that would work for the seven different positions?

I can try to upload a diagram of the 6100LM layout but basically from the manual, V1 is CH1 Clean - V2 and V6 are used for the CH2 Crunch channel and V2, V3, V4, and V5 are used for CH3 Lead. V7 is the Phase Splitter.

Edit: Forgot to ask is it really worth it to mod the amp to run EL34 type tubes? I'm not really familiar with what type of sound it would produce versus 6L6GC but maybe it's overkill as I do like they way it currently sounds. Guess I should see if I can play through an amp with those tubes before I decide.

Sorry so long but I wanted to give as much info as I can. Merry Christmas, Happy New Years and thanks!

Core


----------



## MartyStrat54

We are here to help. Yes, out of all the Marshall's you have the toughest one of all. I do have to ask though, I thought V5 or V6 was part of the Reverb and FX drivers. I may be wrong. And you are right that some of the tubes are split and one half drives a channel and the other half drives a different channel.

I would stay with the 6L6's. Hot Tubes and Steelhorse (forum members) swear by the TAD 6L6 Black Plates for a 6100. There are many good 6L6's to choose from. I never suggest an all JJ retube. I will say that JJ makes some good power tubes, but I do not like their preamp tubes.

Check those tubes slots out again. I would like to know myself what they are exactly. Going by what you said, I would do this.

V1-Tung-Sol 12AX7
V2-Tung-Sol 12AX7
V3-Mullard RI 12AX7
V4-Mullard RI 12AX7
V5-Tung-Sol 12AX7
V6-Mullard RI 12AX7
V7-Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 (Does not need to be perfectly balanced.) 

As I said, I have talked to other 6100 owners and I believe that you will find that at least one of these tubes, if not two of them are drivers for the FX and reverb.

If you get the correct info, get back with me and I will adjust the tubes as necessary.


----------



## core

Awesome thanks for the response. Here's a link to the Handbook if you are interested in downloading it. The schematic is on page 10. http://www.marshallamps.com/downloads/files/30th Anniv. hbk.pdf

If this link doesn't work then try this one and D/L the 30th Anniversary PDF in the second row.
Marshall Amps :: Downloads

I'm having trouble uploading a schematic for you to view in the thread. Not sure how to do it, sorry man.

This amp doesn't have a reverb dial like a 900DR but it does have an effects loop in the back and an effects dial next to the presence dial which I though was like a dry/wet dial other models in the back have for the effects loop. Is that what you mean by effects?

I took it to the amp tech here locally and I have to say I am very confident so far in his ability. He seems to be right in line with everything you guys are saying as well. I will stick to the 6L6 as I don't think it will gain anything for me with this one. And he will give it a full check out with a light and magnifying glass to check for broken soldering joints. He'll only replace preamp tubes that need it and the ones you mention are ones he has.

Edit: Figured out how to put an image in here


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Don't know - I don't have it yet. I looked on tubemongerlib.com and the getter looks like a Sylvania. It should still make a good V3 or V4 tube if it's not good in V2.
> Sylvania 12AX7 1950s JHS Long Black Plate Square Getter - USA
> 
> I've got this Sonotone coming from greengirl... it tested at 1850/1800 on her Hickok so it should be strong. You said you had two coming, right? Were they the Pilot/Sonotone tubes she had listed earlier? I think you're gonna like them. They aren't as middy as a Philips tube, but they have more edge than other RCAs.



I have that slyvania in my collection


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## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> I have that slyvania in my collection



How is it? They are supposed to be one of the better sounding US tubes.


----------



## ken361

I guess it depends were you put it and how strong it is. I already have a baldwin sylvania in the v1, v2 penta M tube v3 rca and v4 sylvania black plate or a mullard, v5 chinese. Its better at the v4 then any other tube I have for that spot,except the mullard it smooths the over all gain nicely. didnt think it was good for a v1 for me, every amps different.
http://www.tubemongerlib.com/galler...Long+Black+Plate+Square+Getter+-+USA.jpg.html


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## RiverRatt

Here's a sweet Philips tube. Mazda silver plates are supposed to be incredible. At these prices I'll never know, but it's still fun to look at.

12AX7A ECC83 MAZDA SILVER ANODE TUBE 12AX7 / TESTED*


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a sweet Philips tube. Mazda silver plates are supposed to be incredible. At these prices I'll never know, but it's still fun to look at.
> 
> 12AX7A ECC83 MAZDA SILVER ANODE TUBE 12AX7 / TESTED*



Just makes you wonder if it would sound incredibly better than a Telefunken, or if a Japanese Matsushita would blow it out of the water.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a sweet Philips tube. Mazda silver plates are supposed to be incredible. At these prices I'll never know, but it's still fun to look at.
> 
> 12AX7A ECC83 MAZDA SILVER ANODE TUBE 12AX7 / TESTED*



Holy tubes! that would sound good!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just makes you wonder if it would sound incredibly better than a Telefunken, or if a Japanese Matsushita would blow it out of the water.



They very well might. It's all hearsay until you try it for yourself. Still, it's impressive as hell. That bottom picture is pure tube porn. It looks like it's built like a tank and those cutouts over the heaters have to look cool when it's powered up.


----------



## solarburn

Someone buy it so we know what it sounds like...


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah...I'll get right on it SunBurn.

:cool2:


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## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> They very well might. It's all hearsay until you try it for yourself. Still, it's impressive as hell. That bottom picture is pure tube porn. It looks like it's built like a tank and those cutouts over the heaters have to look cool when it's powered up.



Stop it! You're getting Solar all hot and bothered.:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> They very well might. It's all hearsay until you try it for yourself. Still, it's impressive as hell. That bottom picture is pure tube porn. It looks like it's built like a tank and those cutouts over the heaters have to look cool when it's powered up.



The other thing is what if you got it and it sounded better than any other tube and a week later it quit working. That could happen you know.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

More valves came in today, thought you might to take a look

First up we have 2 more of the BEL valves with the curious factory code on E05

Got these for the same price i got the other 2, £15 for the pair, same seller these 2 test stronger than the last pair.







Next we have a GE tube with original box (im pleased about that for some unkown reason) that cost me about £7, NOS says made in Italy on it is this likely to be the case? has the marking JV 188-5 (i think).
















And lastly what i think is a philips rebranded valve, HRS quality components is the brand, the tube is marked with just the type ECC83, also with I63 and a B followed by some numbers that are illegable, im thinking maybe a blackburn made philips? Constrction looks identical to the BEL valves. incedntally i paid over the odds for this one at £15!!


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## RiverRatt

Yeah, that last one is a Mullard. The BELs look legit, too. How do they sound compared to the Mullard? 

That Italian tube has me curious. I've only seen one other tube that has that white borax paste where the filaments are soldered to the pins, and that's on my Sonotone tubes. They are stamped Made in USA and I've always thought they were RCA tubes, but they don't really look or sound that much like RCAs. You can see what I'm talking about here:


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## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that last one is a Mullard. The BELs look legit, too. How do they sound compared to the Mullard?
> 
> That Italian tube has me curious. I've only seen one other tube that has that white borax paste where the filaments are soldered to the pins, and that's on my Sonotone tubes. They are stamped Made in USA and I've always thought they were RCA tubes, but they don't really look or sound that much like RCAs. You can see what I'm talking about here:



You have very keen eyes! I was wondering about that paste. As to sound i will have a chance tomorrow when my wife and son are away to pop them into the amp and see whats what.


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## MartyStrat54

Well, that's a new one on me...an Italian GE. I always wondered about Italy. I knew someone had to be making tubes there. I did a search, but came up with nothing.

Isn't it nice to know that a label on a tube may not have a thing to do with who actually made it.


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## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


>



Here's that tube with the Geloso brand, made in Italy, says they are also rebranded RCA.





Geloso ECC83 1960s Tall Plate - ITALY

Here's an Italian-made Philips Geloso, it says Milano, but probably made at the Philips-owned factory in Fivre. Check out the disc getter!





12AX7 / ECC83 for sale

Here's one labeled Fivre that isn't a Philips tube, probably the same make as the first one.





https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm

There's not much info out there on Italian tubes. There are a few antique radio sites, and Geloso even has a website (geloso.net) but there's very litte about tubes. Check this site for links:

| Radiopistoia.com - Radiocorriere.it |


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## MartyStrat54

What I am noticing is that the Italian tubes use one large crimp on each side of the plates. I don't know if I like that approach. Normally you would see two on almost any other tube. The GE in the picture appears to have two, but I can't tell because of the picture.

The other thing is what I said earlier, "What about Italy?" I've been wheeling and dealing tubes and let's face it, Italian tubes are not on everyone's tongue.

I know nothing about them, their reliability or how they sound. I do not know if Philips controlled any of the companies (how many one?) and I do not know what influence the American companies had.

Sure would like to know that stuff.


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## RiverRatt

Apparently Italy had a respectable electronics industry, and the Geloso brand seems to have figured prominently in it. The site I posted has some info about their products. Most of the radios have that 50's bakelite appearance, but they also made reel-to-reel machines and wire recorders, as well as receiving tubes for televisions. The Fivre plant is listed in the Philips codebook and from the photo of the Geloso tube with the Philips label on it, they supplied tubes for the Geloso company. Maybe Philips was able to supply these smaller markets more efficiently and avoid import/export tariffs with a manufacturing plant in the country of origin - that would explain why there are so many facories scattered around the world. I would imagine that Philips would also use these plants to supply tubes for their other companies as the need arose. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that these tubes were even marked as being made in the country that re-labeled them. I haven't got a large collection of Philips tubes, but I have noticed that the tubes from Japan, India, and other smaller suppliers don't seem to have consistent factory codes as Mullard, Amperex, Valvo and the other large companies, if they even have codes at all, so the slight variations in construction are the only real clues as to where they were made. I don't think anyone will ever know exactly what went on back then. There were too many factories and too many labels. The one thing that seems to be consistent is the glass bottle. You can pretty much tell at a glance if a tube was made by Philips by looking at the nipple and the seams in the top.


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## MartyStrat54

Very well put my Rat of a friend. I have read in several articles where certain obscure Philips plants did not adhere to any real codes on the tubes. You are right about tubes made in one country being labeled as made in a different country. Have you ever looked at a Japanese RCA? The "box" says "Made in U.S.A." However, if you pull the tube out you have to look real hard, but in a very light colored ink is, "Made in Japan." Most consumers didn't see it and thought they were American RCA's. RCA did this for over ten years. Now when RCA was hurting and Mullard was still making tubes, Mullard put their codes and "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube. It's really funny how all of that worked. Take Bogen amps. Made in Camden, right near RCA. They used to use all RCA, but of course RCA was one of the big brands to dump tubes very quickly in favor of transistors. They just figured the market would collapse. Bogen was still making five or six models of tube PA amps. RCA couldn't supply them so they used Mullards. At first the tubes had the Mullard codes and the "Made In Gt. Britain" was really small. The big label said "BOGEN." However, when tubes started getting scarce, the tubes said, "Bogen by MULLARD." If you ever find an old Bogen, they only used one 12AX7, but they are all good brands. The other two preamp tubes are worth grabbing. If you can find the old 50 watt model, they had some really nice American 6L6's in them. The 35 and 100 watt models used 7868. They are worth money on EBAY. Grab those.

Anyway, yes it is impossible to tell what happened in the glory years. I'm still more intrigued by the transistor years when Brand A bought from Brand B and C and labeled them as Brand A. You know, stuff like that. Perfect example. On EBAY the tube was listed as a Westinghouse Black Plate. The picture was big and clear. It was an RCA. No one bid on it an I got it for the minimum. I love it when someone who sell comic books and baseball cards gets some tubes to sell. They don't know jack. Makes for an interesting auction.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> What I am noticing is that the Italian tubes use one large crimp on each side of the plates. I don't know if I like that approach. Normally you would see two on almost any other tube. The GE in the picture appears to have two, but I can't tell because of the picture.
> 
> The other thing is what I said earlier, "What about Italy?" I've been wheeling and dealing tubes and let's face it, Italian tubes are not on everyone's tongue.
> 
> I know nothing about them, their reliability or how they sound. I do not know if Philips controlled any of the companies (how many one?) and I do not know what influence the American companies had.
> 
> Sure would like to know that stuff.



You are right about the crimps it does have 2 see pics, so it isnt the same as the Geloso linked to earlier. I will get a chance to run it in the amp later, it was only destined for V3 or V4 anyway, but will be interseting to pop it into V1 and V2 to see how it sounds.

edit just found a valve that has the same silver bits on the top corrners of the plates, its a lorenz, looks very similar to the tube i have? It even has the paste on the filaments at the bottom, still makes you wonder why it says made in Italy and marked up as a GE valve as well though.

hmm cant seem to link to it, heres the url

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/12AX7/Lorenz++ECC83+1960s+Tall+Plate+Silver+Supports+1+-+Stuttgart+Germany.jpg.html


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## ken361

Hey pass those italian tubes over here man! they belong to me! lol


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## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Hey pass those italian tubes over here man! they belong to me! lol


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## RiverRatt

Hey, I noticed something else. All the Italian tubes I posted have four micas - 2 each on top and bottom. It's easy to spot; they aren't lined up with each other. Spirit's GE isn't like that.


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## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I noticed something else. All the Italian tubes I posted have four micas - 2 each on top and bottom. It's easy to spot; they aren't lined up with each other. Spirit's GE isn't like that.



Im pretty sure its one of these,

Lorenz ECC83 1960s Tall Plate Silver Supports 1 - Stuttgart Germany

like i said before even down to the paste on the filaments. Im very pleased with this valve, had it in the amp very briefly today, and not at the kind of volume id like to, sounds very similar to the valvo i have in V1 at the moment, which is glorious both clean and overdriven, very clear,crisp sounds almost transparent if that makes any sense. I know all these things are very subjective.
Also popped in the BEL's and the other Ecc83, the BELs had more balls about them, very muscular and beefy, fantastic valves for the money. I really need to do some rolling when i have a few hours to myself and the space needed to use some volume. Btw ive gotta stop buying now, ive got more than i possibly need, but these littel bargains just keep cropping up and id be insane to pass then up.


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## RiverRatt

You can never have enough tubes! I had my wife pick up a tube off eBay for my birthday. She asked how many tubes I actually need? Just one more, baby. Just one more. 

Your description of the BELs sounds like what I thought of the Matsushitas. They have this powerful dark, gritty tone. These oddball Philips tubes are an incredible value for the money. I've picked them up cheaper than most CP tubes and I would put them up against any Mullard I've used. 

Joe, have you gotten any of your MIJ tubes in yet? I guess not, or surely we'd have heard about them by now. We may have to do another swap when my stuff comes in.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You can never have enough tubes! I had my wife pick up a tube off eBay for my birthday. She asked how many tubes I actually need? Just one more, baby. Just one more.
> 
> Your description of the BELs sounds like what I thought of the Matsushitas. They have this powerful dark, gritty tone. These oddball Philips tubes are an incredible value for the money. I've picked them up cheaper than most CP tubes and I would put them up against any Mullard I've used.
> 
> Joe, have you gotten any of your MIJ tubes in yet? I guess not, or surely we'd have heard about them by now. We may have to do another swap when my stuff comes in.



I got Greengirls today but I don't have my Marshall to roll it in, just my NT. So I'll see in a few how it sounds in it. I prefer roll'n in my Marshall cause my ear is more tuned to that. The others look like will be here Monday. 

I prefer the Matsushitas to Mullards at least the one I have. Well...time to go see how that LT sounds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

River Ratt I got my tubes back. Thanks.

I got a load in today. I was pissed. One of the side-getter Sonotone's didn't cut it. Failed emissions and the short test. Damn! The other one was good.

Got some more Tele smooth plates. They tested on the stout side. One was a 30-30.

And yes, four Matsushita's. One tested as a V1 and the other three were either a real ballsy V1 or a high gain V2. (Now that Alan has switched over to running V2 tubes in V1.)

Also got a pair of GE's. 1961 and 1963. Made for Baldwin. Both tested nice.

We've all gotten so hung up on the European tubes. It's kind of sad. I'd be happy with a 59 RCA Gray Plate in V1 and a Raytheon in V2 and then a couple of GE's or Sylvania's. Oh then the Germans invaded us and the Tele became the tickee.

Rock on.


----------



## solarburn

I just shat myself run'n that LT in my V1. The NT grew some ballz. I forgot to mention I boost the NT with my Dano to give it some added punch. Otherwise it has a little pair. You know what else is cool about these Matsushitas is they clean up with guitar roll off.

Are you selling any to me Marty or are you keep'n those for yourself hehe?

What the hell does a 30/30 Tele sound like? Sheesh! Thats a stout one...


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I might as well quit watching bowl games and talk about tubes. Fuckin' Tennessee....

Speaking of American tubes, I got that Sylvania BP today and it is a good tube in V1 or V2. Not quite as punchy as the Raytheon in V2, but still a good sound. In V1 it has good mids. It's a little brighter than I like, but it has a good tone. I might have to pick up a few more of these. I don't have any test scores on it, but it's pretty stout. I'm not that familiar with Sylvania codes - this one says 12AX7 and has what looks like F3Y underneath. 

Marty, how's that Sonotone in V1? My side getters sound nothing like other RCAs I have.

Well, time to tune in to Memphis TV. Gibson is dropping a 10-foot Les Paul at midnight. You don't see that every day.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's seven outside right now, but I'm going down to the main bar to party a little bit. Going to hit it at around 10:30PM. I went last night on a craft beer run to St. Joe, Missouri. I bought some really good brews. If you want to view them they are on the "Where's the F'N Beer" thread.

If you guys are hanging loose, that's cool. I just want to hit it for a while and have a few Crowns and Sevens.

Have a Happy New Year. I'll be trying the Sonotone in the Twister and see how it and a Matsushita sound in V1.

Remember, on the Twister, only V1A is the primary gain stage and then all of V2. Nonetheless, it is still a perfect amp to test the V1 and V2 scenario.


----------



## RiverRatt

Happy New Year's to everyone too. I'm going to take it easy tonight with a little sippin' whiskey. We're going to Nashvegas early tomorrow. I'll hit a few music shops and some of the more interesting esoteric spots. Gotta stay away from Gruhn's - that place gets me into trouble.


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## solarburn

Happy New Years everybody!

Have a good time!

Be safe!

See ya next year then...


----------



## racko7566

Happy New Year to all.


----------



## Brian9

Would a 7025 go well with a 12BZ7? Or would it cause noise like using two of the 12BZ7's?


----------



## solarburn

Hows my Brethren today? Happy New Jeer man!

Whats on the tube menu now?

I had just put in the LT in my NT and then had an RFT in the PI. This sounded nice with a warm fat(as fat as a NT can be)overdrive to it. I thought I'd try a BP in the PI and see what that would give me and not surprising I got that nice accentuated mid character come in and the power chords were more defined. So even in this amp the BP in the second slot(even though its the PI) sounds great.

V1-Matsushita
PI-Raytheon Black Plate

Power tubes Russian EL84(67's)NOS


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hows my Brethren today? Happy New Jeer man!
> 
> Whats on the tube menu now?
> 
> I had just put in the LT in my NT and then had an RFT in the PI. This sounded nice with a warm fat(as fat as a NT can be)overdrive to it. I thought I'd try a BP in the PI and see what that would give me and not surprising I got that nice accentuated mid character come in and the power chords were more defined. So even in this amp the BP in the second slot(even though its the PI) sounds great.
> 
> V1-Matsushita
> PI-Raytheon Black Plate
> 
> Power tubes Russian EL84(67's)NOS



I was experimenting with the PI today, and was really suprised in the difference it made to the sound. I had all sorts of valves in there including an RFT (which i didnt really like tbh) various American valves (the philips Jan 12ax7WA sounded the best, really big and crisp) but i ended up with the no name military style triple micra jobs i have a few of. These sound overall the best to my ears, i like a nice defined sound, with crispness in the distortion and although the Philips Jan 12ax7WA gave me this i felt the overdriven tones were a bit to grainy with the philips compared to the no name valves. Kind of odd really, i realy could not tell the difference a while ago between valves in the PI but now the difference is quite distinct.
I also realised that i have so many great valves for V1 and V2, running a Valvo and Philips in V1 and V2 and really love it, so has anyone had any real experience of valves making a difference in V3? what impact does V3 have on the amps response etc?


----------



## solarburn

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I was experimenting with the PI today, and was really suprised in the difference it made to the sound. I had all sorts of valves in there including an RFT (which i didnt really like tbh) various American valves (the philips Jan 12ax7WA sounded the best, really big and crisp) but i ended up with the no name military style triple micra jobs i have a few of. These sound overall the best to my ears, i like a nice defined sound, with crispness in the distortion and although the Philips Jan 12ax7WA gave me this i felt the overdriven tones were a bit to grainy with the philips compared to the no name valves. Kind of odd really, i realy could not tell the difference a while ago between valves in the PI but now the difference is quite distinct.
> I also realised that i have so many great valves for V1 and V2, running a Valvo and Philips in V1 and V2 and really love it, so has anyone had any real experience of valves making a difference in V3? what impact does V3 have on the amps response etc?



Lately I've been experimenting with the PI as well. I agree there is a definable change in tone from tube to tube.

I also had an RFT in the PI of my Marshall and I changed that to a Mullard and heard the mid character change in the tone. I was a bit surprised that it had such a noticeable impact on the overall tone. The Marshall is headed to Wilder's now so that's why I'm rolling tubes in the Night train. So just when I thought i had the last 2 slots done on the Marshall I find another slot(PI)to tone shape. I've got plenty of nice tubes to try out...

I've got a couple of JP's in my drawer. I like them but they got ousted by the Raytheon BP, Telefunken and now the Realistic(Matsushita). I haven't heard anyone else here like the JP's besides me hehe.


----------



## ken361

I think its pretty important to have a good tube in the PI slot because it cleans up the over all tone


----------



## MartyStrat54

I am on the prowl, although I am not rolling PI tubes. Isn't it a shame that other than the Raytheon BP, we are not using American tubes anymore. Ever try a Raytheon Gray Plate?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've got a couple of JP's in my drawer. I like them but they got ousted by the Raytheon BP, Telefunken and now the Realistic(Matsushita). I haven't heard anyone else here like the JP's besides me hehe.




Forgive me but whats a JP? Also im feeling guilty as i have some no name cv492 in V3 and V4 as i have supposedly much better valves hanging around that should be in there but aren't, am i crazy for feeling this way?, or should i just trust my ears.


----------



## solarburn

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Forgive me but whats a JP? Also im feeling guilty as i have some no name cv492 in V3 and V4 as i have supposedly much better valves hanging around that should be in there but aren't, am i crazy for feeling this way?, or should i just trust my ears.



JAN Philips 12AX7WA. 

From Doug's Tubes:

The last of the 80's military production, has a nice creamy sound when overdriven. Highly recommended, every guitar player should have one.

Trust your ears. I actually like a Sovtec LPS in the PI. So what if our ears like lesser tubes hehe.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

solarburnDSL50 said:


> JAN Philips 12AX7WA.
> 
> From Doug's Tubes:
> 
> The last of the 80's military production, has a nice creamy sound when overdriven. Highly recommended, every guitar player should have one.




Yeah thats the one i had as my V1 for a long time untill i got into the whole vinatge valve thing in a bigger way. I like em, they have a bags of gain and sound very clear, liked it in the PI slot as well, but maybe just a tad brighter than i wanted. Still a great valve in my opinion.


----------



## solarburn

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Yeah thats the one i had as my V1 for a long time untill i got into the whole vinatge valve thing in a bigger way. I like em, they have a bags of gain and sound very clear, liked it in the PI slot as well, but maybe just a tad brighter than i wanted. Still a great valve in my opinion.



I ran it in V1 as well. It mixed well with my other ones too. When I got the 3 other ones I mentioned is when I set them(have 2)aside for safe keep'n until later. I was using 1 in my NT too.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I am on the prowl, although I am not rolling PI tubes. Isn't it a shame that other than the Raytheon BP, we are not using American tubes anymore. Ever try a Raytheon Gray Plate?



I have some Raytheon short gray plate 12AT7s that are sweet, and also a 12AZ7 which I believe is the same tube as the AT7. Never found any 12AX7 grays.

I've got a bid in on a Tungsol BP. We'll see how that goes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, you were right about using the Ultra 2 channel. There's a sweet spot with the gain somewhere around 3 where the amp sounds really good. It's a lot more full than Ultra 1. I've gotten away from thinking of the DSL as a 2 channel amp. I've been treating it more like a single channel amp with different voicings. I was never really able to EQ the amp so that the Classic and Ultra channel both sounded good switching back and forth. This is usable, though. It goes pretty smoothly from classic rock crunch to hot-rodded JCM800. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, you were right about using the Ultra 2 channel. There's a sweet spot with the gain somewhere around 3 where the amp sounds really good. It's a lot more full than Ultra 1. I've gotten away from thinking of the DSL as a 2 channel amp. I've been treating it more like a single channel amp with different voicings. I was never really able to EQ the amp so that the Classic and Ultra channel both sounded good switching back and forth. This is usable, though. It goes pretty smoothly from classic rock crunch to hot-rodded JCM800. Thanks for the tip.



Someone heard me hehehe. Yeah I was surprised with it too but as you say it enables a player to now easily set both channels up and not have to fiddle with the EQ. I have 2 or 3 OD pedals boosting the Crunch channel that I don't have to re-EQ amp settings which give me 3 distinct rock tones as well. So really I can have a bunch of options using lead 2 and the classic gain(crunch)channel. What about clean? Roll guitar volume down. 

Lead 1 sounds really thin now and I use to always play in Lead 1 never in lead 2 cause I had the gain too high on it. Anyways trying to get those more plexi or vintage tones led me to it.


----------



## Procter2812

1 x BRIMAR 12AX7 VALVE CV492, 1958 on eBay (end time 02-Jan-10 17:06:00 GMT)

Check that out... I was bidding on it but it went a bit high considering its not tested!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> 1 x BRIMAR 12AX7 VALVE CV492, 1958 on eBay (end time 02-Jan-10 17:06:00 GMT)
> 
> Check that out... I was bidding on it but it went a bit high considering its not tested!



I saw this one, and when it went past £8 i stopped watching, no testing and no returns equals not interested, espcially as its now at £20 and i have bought 2 tested philips for £5 less than that.

HOLY SH*T it went for £50!! must be made of pure mojo for that kinda cash, hope someone really enjoys it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I saw this one, and when it went past £8 i stopped watching, no testing and no returns equals not interested, espcially as its now at £20 and i have bought 2 tested philips for £5 less than that.
> 
> HOLY SH*T it went for £50!! must be made of pure mojo for that kinda cash, hope someone really enjoys it.



The guy sells cookware and necklaces. He didn't have a clue about that tube. No returns. What if you paid that kind of money and it's an old worn out tube. Good grief, what is wrong with some people. That's a lot of dough for an untested tube. Maybe I should start doing that. Apparently if you don't test the tube they bring in more money.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Got the tubes I had bought 2 weeks ago before leaving for winter break.
4 Brimars and 3 Raytheon "Baldwin" BPs. I havent tried these yet; I also have 3 EIs...What would you suggest for V1 - V3 for the Marshalls and V1 - V4 for Michael's Orange AD30HTC?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the key is knowing what all these tubes test at. Did the seller give test data? Or have you mixed the tubes around? The trick is getting a black plate that tests higher than what you stick in V1. Now Ratt has put a rocket in V1, but I don't know if he is going to keep it there. If you have no test data, you will have to roll the tubes and go with the pairings that sound the best to you. 

Which Marshall amp? Also, do you know the tube layout for the Orange? I haven't a clue as to how they use the tubes. Some of the Orange's use V1A for first stage gain and V1B is the cathode follower. Some use V2A and B as the other gain stages and other models do not.

If I have some spare time I might see what I can find.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty, the seller did provide test data...
On the BPs, here is what he sent me>> 
1250,1250/800; 1350,1400/800; 1325,1450/800
auction 3 Raytheon 12AX7 12AX7A ECC83 Blackplate Tubes Matching - eBay (item 180447362046 end time Dec-23-09 06:16:50 PST)

On the Brimars 
1300,1225/800, 1200,1225/800, 1250,1225/800, 1350,1350/800
Brimar B.V.A. ECC83 12AX7 NOS TEST Matching Tubes Quad - eBay (item 230383009967 end time Dec-20-09 16:13:16 PST)

I was going to spread them and the EIs between my 71 SL100 and Michael's BB RI.
Here are some threads on the Orange Amp Forum
Orange Amps Forum &bull; View topic - Orange AD30HTC preamp tube sequence/layout?
Orange Amps Forum &bull; View topic - AD30HTC Tube layout

Hope this helps...and happy new year to you...Serge


----------



## CKCinMass

MartyStrat54 said:


> I posted the following on a different thread that had expanded into tube usage. I thought I would go ahead and post it here since it contains info on preamp tubes.
> 
> Marty
> 
> ************************************************************
> 
> The gain stages are V1 and V2. One thing a 401 shares with its big brothers are four preamp tubes. What these four tubes do has been posted on other threads, so I won't go into detail about them all. However, keep in mind that an ECC83/12AX7 is a high-mu twin triode. It contains two gain stages per tube and that means your amp has four gain stages and that's a lot. In theory, a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100, but when it is placed in the amp, it looses some of its gain due to the resistance of the circuit. A tube that will give you more gain is a 12BZ7. It is a direct replacement for a 12AX7 and has a gain of 100 as well. However, it has half the plate resistance so it maintains more gain when placed into a circuit, such as V1. I know several players who did this and they love the way it sounds. Note: I would only use a 12BZ7 in V1. Adding more could make the amp feedback and squeal at moderate volume levels.
> 
> Some people want less gain. This allows the volume controls to be cranked more and therefore you get more power tube distortion (the 12BZ7 will give you more preamp gain and preamp distortion). The tubes of choice are a 12AT7 with a gain factor of 70, a 12AU7 with a gain factor of only 17 and a 5751 (which is a low noise, lower gain 12AX7) with a gain factor of 70. Other 12xx7 tubes with a 9A pin layout are: 12AX7A, 12AD7, 12DF7, 12DT7, 7025 (Ultra quiet, high gain 12AX7), and 12DM7. There are many more and some of these other tubes might work. I'm only listing what are known to be direct replacements for an ECC83/12AX7 tube. Note: If you want a super clean channel, I would recommend a 5751 or a 7025. This is what I use in V1. However the 5751 can be bought for less money than a 7025. The 7025 is very quiet, but has a gain factor of 100 like a 12AX7.
> 
> I you want to try a 12BZ7, the only place you can find them are on Ebay. I haven't seen any tube dealers that sell them (or they were out of stock). These tubes are usually new old stock (NOS) tubes and are in great condition.



Marty,

Antique Electronic Supply has 12BZ7 tubes for short money.

Antique Electronic Supply

I ordered one to see how it sounds in my '80 2204. I'm also going to see what it will do for an old Sound City 50 Plus that I will be doing a cap job on in the next week or two.


----------



## RiverRatt

30Strings, you're getting quite a collection. I don't think you could go wrong with any of those in the Marshall or the Orange. I'd probably go with the Ei in the first gain stage if they aren't noisy or microphonic, but that's just my preference. I don't have a Brimar, so it's all theory with them. I've heard they are a cleaner tube than most.

I added to my collection of Rare, Strange and Unusual Tubes today. I got another side getter Sonotone. The general consensus is that these are RCA tubes, but they are unlike any other RCA I've seen or heard. The tone reminds me of a Telefunken smooth plate but not quite as much bite. Definitely not a typical American tone. Two of them have an ink stamped "12AX7A" like in the second picture, the other has a faint RCA octagon with the number in it. The one on the left is the new addition; the other two used to look pretty much the same but the writing is all but gone. If you guys run across any of these for a decent price, give them a try. IMHO they are the best sounding American-made tube I've heard so far. 










Coming soon in the Rare, Strange and Unusual Tubes category: two Philips 7025s, one stamped "Made in England", one stamped "Made in U.S.A.", both believed to be made in Japan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

CKCinMass said:


> Marty,
> 
> Antique Electronic Supply has 12BZ7 tubes for short money.
> 
> Antique Electronic Supply
> 
> I ordered one to see how it sounds in my '80 2204. I'm also going to see what it will do for an old Sound City 50 Plus that I will be doing a cap job on in the next week or two.



Yeah the price on BZ7's has gone down. All I can tell you is try it. I've found that a BZ7 is sort of neutral sounding. A lot of 12AX7's have their own sounds. An RCA Gray Plate, Raytheon Black Plate, Telefunken, Amperex and Mullard all have their own flavor. However, some tubes lack a lot of tonal influence. A 7025 is a great HiFi tube, because it is so quiet it works wonders in the primary gain stages. Although a 7025 will give a great clean channel on your amp, it really doesn't add too much flavor. The same for the BZ7. Oh, you are going to get more gain, but I have 12AX7's that are very high gain. Keep in mind that too much gain can distort the circuit and this causes a thrashed sound. We had our fun with them, but we all went back to 12AX7's. Who knows, you may like them. I would recommend a good V1 and run the BZ7 in V2. If you try it in V1, the RF shield will not fit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BLACKDOG-The Brimar's will be fine for V1. However, the Raytheon's are not high gain. It doesn't mean you can't use them, you can. It just means a little more tweaking to get the balls you are looking for.

The guy who "tried" to explain the Orange was a bozo. Those other threads are too much. The guy asks a question and then there is all of the nonsense by the guy who supposedly knows the answer. So nothing was really posted, so I will have to look myself. The Orange probably uses V1A for both channels and V1B might be the cathode follower circuit. Then V2A and B are the additional gain stages. Let me see what I can find out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ratt I'm pissed. Only one of my Sonotones was good. That sucks. Great pic's and I eagerly await the mystery tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BLACKDOG-What I found is that there are four preamp tubes in the Orange AD30HTC. This is a very different amp here. Each channel has its own V1 and then the two V2's are Phase Inverters. So you only need to concern yourself with your sweet tubes in the V1's. Now on this sort of amp, I would try different tubes in the PI slots, as this will modify your sound. The PI has more influence in this type of circuit versus a Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ratt I'm pissed. Only one of my Sonotones was good. That sucks. Great pic's and I eagerly await the mystery tubes.



That sucks. I though my new one was bad. I put it in V1 and it sounded great on the Classic channel. I switched over to the ultra channel and nothing. Zilch. I took it out and sandpapered the pins. That got it working but it was still noisy. I got a 9-pin socket out of my junk drawer and used some contact cleaner on it and that got rid of the noise, so all is well. I think it's the strongest of the three.

How did the good tube sound? I'm curious to hear what you thought of it.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

I am lucky enough to have the day off today, and with the house free of family i had a bloody good rolling session. I have ended up with 

V1 Bel philips
V2 Bel philips
V3 mazda branded RFT
V4 philips Jan 12AX7WA

these seemed to give me the best clean with the smoothest overdrive that still retained bags of character and bite. One of the Bels went all noisey as i was testing, so thats in the bin. Slightly off topic but while i was at it i re-biased the amp, glad i had a look as it was running pretty cool at 0.45 volts, so i upped it to 0.65 which was nearly as high as it would go, which seemed odd. If i strummed it hit 0.75 ish, either way it sounds a lot more agressive now.

Also my footswitch gave out (its only a few months old) and now i cant switch to OD1 just OD2, the little LED over the OD1/OD2 switch doesnt light anymore. 

Fixed the footswitch, the cable had a break in one of the wires (red one) just before it enters the housing of the case. Still not very impressed by the poor qualiry of cable used.

Im going to get some decent 3 core cable and replace the delicate hair like cable they supply.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SPIRIT

When you strum the guitar you induce a signal through the tubes and the current will rise. That's why you bias at 70 per cent. You need the headroom for when you play. Remember Class A runs lower plate voltage, but the tubes are biased at 100 per cent. This is because a Class A is "on" all the time. An AB amp is only on part of the time, but some are designed to be on over 90 per cent of the time. Think VOX AC30. I've heard the VOX are hard on tubes.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> SPIRIT
> 
> When you strum the guitar you induce a signal through the tubes and the current will rise. That's why you bias at 70 per cent. You need the headroom for when you play. Remember Class A runs lower plate voltage, but the tubes are biased at 100 per cent. This is because a Class A is "on" all the time. An AB amp is only on part of the time, but some are designed to be on over 90 per cent of the time. Think VOX AC30. I've heard the VOX are hard on tubes.



I know this is off topic and maybe should be moved over to the power tubes thread, BUT Marshall recommends 0.55 volts (550 milivolts) on the modified DSL 401, however ive seen it recommended to run it at around 0.8 volts to make it a little warmer sounding, so this is why i was suprised i could only adjust mine to 0.69 volts tops. I backed off to 0.65 volts, so what im asking is is this ok?, am i running it to high? or may there be a problem in that i cant go to 0.80 volts anyway, let alone 1.0 volts i have also seen banded about. I feel like opening it up and putting it back to 0.55 volts now, I dont want to damage the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I run mine at 850-900mA. Of course I am using NOS power tubes. My 1999 model that I sold was the best sounding one with all Ei tubes. It was biased red hot at over 1500mA. I don't think you are going to hurt your amp. My Marshall tech told me that the amps were very happy in that 900 range. Of course, as I said this is with NOS tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

You ever win a tube you didn't really want to win? I got a 1959 Tung-Sol 12AX7. It was cheap enough, but the shipping is almost what I paid for the tube. I've never even heard a real Tung-Sol.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hate buying single tubes, but sometimes you just got to do it. I hate when they ship by Priority Mail @ $7.85. That sucks.

You know, for a while I used to think Tung-Sol's were a really good tube, but I will take a Gray Plate Raytheon over a Tung-Sol. To me, they are utility tubes for V3 and V4. They do that okay.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I guess I just wanted to hear one for myself. I'm going to have to sell off some of these V3 and V4 tubes one of these days. I'm getting a ridiculous amount of glass, most of it sitting on top of my amp waiting for it's 15 minutes of fame.

I don't know how I got started down this path, but I'm glad I did. For awhile I was hung-up on making my Les Paul sound like an old one. PAF replicas, etc. Let me tell you, I can hear a hell of a lot more difference between a smooth plate Telefunken and a JJ ECC83 than I can between a Sprague orange drop and a bumblebee tone cap in a Les Paul. Anyone who can hear the difference between tone caps has a better ear than I do. I am amazed at the lengths some people will go to for the sake of tone, and then play through an amp loaded with cheap Russian and Chinese glass.


----------



## thrawn86

OK, so I have an excuse to post in this thread legitimately:




It's an EH 12AX7....does it count if I got it surrounded by a combo?  Lettering is yellow, says Made in Russia. I assume it's a standard, ordinary CP tube. Here it is peeking through the rear grille:


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> OK, so I have an excuse to post in this thread legitimately:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's an EH 12AX7....does it count if I got it surrounded by a combo?  Lettering is yellow, says Made in Russia. I assume it's a standard, ordinary CP tube. Here it is peeking through the rear grille:



Hey we up in yo grill man!

Yes it is a CP 12AX7. Just for fun I would put a Tung Sol or Mullard in it and see what happens. Personally I find the EH's a tad bright in my amps as well as the HT Dual pedal I have. So pretty much the same result across 3 different circuits. Anyways in a set up like this Vox AD30VT not a whole lot of change can happen due to the design. It would be just out of curiosity or fun to see...


----------



## guitarmartin416

Ok, so I'm new to the forum today, but I come here daily to read everybodys mind, and get ideas. I am a gear JUNKIE and TONE whore!!!!! I read the first 20 or so pages of this thread, and I have an interesting situation.
Because I collect gear (to play) I have collected quite a bit of very saught after tubes I have about 40 or so '58 RCA blackplate 12AX7, and some Telefunken (mullard made) ecc83 smooth, and ribbed. I'm goin for the Dickey Betts all natural thing.
Marty, you seem to have done the most testing, what order would you recommend for V1, V2, and V3. My biggest drawback is no tube tester
And tryin to decide what power tubes, 6l6 or el34?

SOMBODY HELLLLPPPP!!!!!!! my brain is ready to explode!


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarmartin416 said:


> Because I collect gear (to play) I have collected quite a bit of very sought after tubes I have about 40 or so '58 RCA blackplate 12AX7, and some Telefunken (mullard made) ecc83 smooth, and ribbed. I'm goin for the Dickey Betts all natural thing.
> Marty, you seem to have done the most testing, what order would you recommend for V1, V2, and V3. My biggest drawback is no tube tester
> And tryin to decide what power tubes, 6l6 or el34?
> 
> SOMBODY HELLLLPPPP!!!!!!! my brain is ready to explode!



Yes I am going to need help from all of the regulars, especially BLACKDOG. I looked all over for that post on your Bluesbreaker. I can't remember the preamp layout. Gee this sucks. V1A was gain and then I think it was V2A and B. Your amp has an unusual signal path. If one of the guys has a better recollection of where that post is, I will save it on my hard drive. I forgot to do that. 

However, without a tester and knowing the gain of the tubes, you will have to try a Telefunken in V1 and a Black Plate in V2 and try several to see what combination sounds best to your ears. That's your only option. The Black Plates work best behind the V1 tube.

Okay, once more...where is that Bluesbreaker post. Help me!


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes I am going to need help from all of the regulars, especially BLACKDOG. I looked all over for that post on your Bluesbreaker. I can't remember the preamp layout. Gee this sucks. V1A was gain and then I think it was V2A and B. Your amp has an unusual signal path. If one of the guys has a better recollection of where that post is, I will save it on my hard drive. I forgot to do that.
> 
> However, without a tester and knowing the gain of the tubes, you will have to try a Telefunken in V1 and a Black Plate in V2 and try several to see what combination sounds best to your ears. That's your only option. The Black Plates work best behind the V1 tube.
> 
> Okay, once more...where is that Bluesbreaker post. Help me!



I will try that.
I seem to be having issues with V1, tried 5 different tubes, and all seem microphonic. Coincidence? or is the socket bad? or could V2 tube be bad?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can have 40 RCA Black Plates and a whole bunch of them can be worn out or microphonic. With tubes in place, tap on the tube lightly with a pencil. If the tube generates unwanted noise, it is microphonic. Generally, it is most noticeable in the V1 slot.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you can have 40 RCA Black Plates and a whole bunch of them can be worn out or microphonic. With tubes in place, tap on the tube lightly with a pencil. If the tube generates unwanted noise, it is microphonic. Generally, it is most noticeable in the V1 slot.



what I'm gettin mostly is like the tube is not seating properly. crackle if you touch it


----------



## RiverRatt

Spray some contact cleaner on the pins and work the tube in and out of the socket a few times and see if that helps. I had the same issue with an eBay tube just this week.


----------



## guitarmartin416

unfortunatly stuck home with kids, and no extra car seats, and I'm outta cleaner. lol


----------



## guitarmartin416

So I'm gonna try Tele smooth V1
RCA black V2, V3
EH balanced in PI
I think its PI there, after power tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's correct, but the PI tube doesn't have to be balanced. If that's what you got, that's fine, but you could stick an unbalanced tube in there and not tell the difference.

When you get old tubes it is best to take a small piece of ScotchBrite to the pins. If you haven't cleaned your tube sockets in a while, yes clean them. If you still have a problem with a loose tube, you will have to pull the chassis and retension the socket. If you have to do this, leave a post and I will go into detail how I do it.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes I am going to need help from all of the regulars, especially BLACKDOG. I looked all over for that post on your Bluesbreaker. I can't remember the preamp layout. Gee this sucks. V1A was gain and then I think it was V2A and B. Your amp has an unusual signal path. If one of the guys has a better recollection of where that post is, I will save it on my hard drive. I forgot to do that.
> 
> However, without a tester and knowing the gain of the tubes, you will have to try a Telefunken in V1 and a Black Plate in V2 and try several to see what combination sounds best to your ears. That's your only option. The Black Plates work best behind the V1 tube.
> 
> Okay, once more...where is that Bluesbreaker post. Help me!



Marty, was this it? http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/9634-problems-tremolo-my-sons-bluesbreaker-ri.html

Michael is still trying to decide if he is going to bother or not...everyone said the tremolo sucks anyway! I have a Dr. Scientist Tremolessence that he borrows.

For the SL100, I'm going to try the Brimar in V1, the Ei in V2, and the BP in V3, then reverse V2 and V3. I still have the original RFT EL34s in there, and will save the Sylvanias for now.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's correct, but the PI tube doesn't have to be balanced. If that's what you got, that's fine, but you could stick an unbalanced tube in there and not tell the difference.
> 
> When you get old tubes it is best to take a small piece of ScotchBrite to the pins. If you haven't cleaned your tube sockets in a while, yes clean them. If you still have a problem with a loose tube, you will have to pull the chassis and retension the socket. If you have to do this, leave a post and I will go into detail how I do it.



gonna try it at rehersal tonight, I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks a bunch........so far......


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Marty, was this it? http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/9634-problems-tremolo-my-sons-bluesbreaker-ri.html
> 
> Michael is still trying to decide if he is going to bother or not...everyone said the tremolo sucks anyway! I have a Dr. Scientist Tremolessence that he borrows.
> 
> For the SL100, I'm going to try the Brimar in V1, the Ei in V2, and the BP in V3, then reverse V2 and V3. I still have the original RFT EL34s in there, and will save the Sylvanias for now.



No that's not it. It was posted on the Preamp Tube Thread. I broke down the preamp tubes for the BB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here it is per Jon Wilder...

The Bluesbreaker is basically an early 60s JTM-45 Tremolo in a combo cab, which is the original circuit that Marshall derived from the 5F6A Tweed Bassman circuit. The tremolo was actually Marshall's own design...or they probably derived that from elsewhere as well, but it definitely didn't come from any Fender amps that I've seen. V1's gain stages are "mixed" instead of cascaded, then they enter the gain side of V2, then directly into the cathode follower side of V2, which drives the tone stack.

Once at the phase inverter (V3), there is some gain added there as well. Not as much as in the preamp circuit mind you, but there is some gain added via the phase inverter stage.

It's the same exact circuit as a 1987 or a 1959 basically, just slightly different component values throughout. The phase inverter stage is the exact same in all of the amps, with the exception of the earlier circuits using 0.1uF coupling caps between the phase inverter and the power valves ('68 and newer use the 0.022uF here). That and the negative feedback resistor in the earlier circuits was a lower value..starting at 27K, then they went to 47K while some of the later 100 watters feature the 100K NFB resistor.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, is this what I think it is? I can't tell if that seam is Philips or NEC. Check it out and see what you think. That's a hell of a deal if it's a Matsushita.

Radio Tubes 1 Realistic 12AX7A 12AX7 ECC83 Tube Japan


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, is this what I think it is? I can't tell if that seam is Philips or NEC. Check it out and see what you think. That's a hell of a deal if it's a Matsushita.
> 
> Radio Tubes 1 Realistic 12AX7A 12AX7 ECC83 Tube Japan



Only one photo. Enlarged it appears to be a seam top and the plate looks like a Philips. I would say a gold pin Matsushita. They were the main supplier for Radio Shack. I've never heard of a Hitachi or NEC Radio Shack tube.

The test readings are getting toward the low end.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was wondering about the test readings. Hickock numbers seem to vary a lot from model to model. Did you notice that it doesn't have the cutouts on the plates? The Matsushitas I have coming have a cutout on both sides like Mullards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well what we have already discovered is that when it comes to Philips tubes, there can be no cut-outs, outside cut-outs or inside/outside cut-outs. Why? I don't know. Personally I like the idea of the double cut-outs. I think the heater would last longer in this design.


----------



## guitarmartin416

OK, so I tried the amp at rehersal....
Desperately need power tubes (volumes lacks as amp warms up, and gettin strange harmonics too) Marty you said my amp design is basically the same as a 1987 correct? I have removed the tremelo wire from the PCB but that had no effect on the normal channel ( was suppose to ) I think I'm gonna go with el34's instead of the crap 5881's in it. I believe I only need to swap the screen resistors from 470 5w to 1k 5w (correct me if I'm wrong)
So I really cant tell if my pre amp tubes sound good or not. They sound WAY better than they did, but in a band mix it sounded stail. No smooth drive like I was goin for, and I've heard tale that I should swap the Filter caps from 50x50uf to 32x32uf and the other to 16x16uf ( how does this effect tone?)
Other than that, now you have explained the gain stage line up on my amp, what is a good order to start my pre tubes? I'm not real straight on the mixed gain stage thing, you're saying V1 V2 and V3 are all integrated gain stage?
I only ran a balanced tube in the PI cause sombody told me I should....what is the difference?

....... sorry for bein a pain in the a@#!!!!


----------



## guitarmartin416

Where's my guru's today????


----------



## core

*6100LM Update*

Hi guys, just wanted to give an update on the 6100LM. Got it back from the shop and it seems to be in great working order and sounds great. 

He rebiased it and I can now see the orange glow a lot better with a ting of blue. He didn't have to change the power tubes as the bias was all it needed. He changed a couple preamp tubes and that was all for that. He resoldered a few connections and especially around a certain chip that this amp has. What it does I forget, I think it has to do with the XLR out which now is nearly silent through my recording gear. Before it was very loud and obnoxious.

The only problem it still has is a crackle here and there which I can live with except when recording with a mic I would need to eliminate that. But maybe it will add to it lol!

Now that I know what the amp is about and has been checked out I may start to delve into older preamp tube brands as you guys are doing. Starting with Marty's suggestions for putting a 7025 in V1 and going from there.

I have a question and maybe someone can help. When going from the XLR into the recording interface, power amp muted on this amp is this cutting out any additional gain stages or circuitry that adds to the gain? What I hear in the monitors is a very low gain tone quite unlike what comes through the cab. Is this normal or should I be hearing the whole tone as I would through a cab?

The only reason is I do late night recordings when my wife is asleep and I want a similar tone. If not I can always add some tone in cubase. It's not bad actually.


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarmartin416 said:


> OK, so I tried the amp at rehersal....
> Desperately need power tubes (volumes lacks as amp warms up, and gettin strange harmonics too) Marty you said my amp design is basically the same as a 1987 correct? I have removed the tremelo wire from the PCB but that had no effect on the normal channel ( was suppose to ) I think I'm gonna go with el34's instead of the crap 5881's in it. I believe I only need to swap the screen resistors from 470 5w to 1k 5w (correct me if I'm wrong)
> So I really cant tell if my pre amp tubes sound good or not. They sound WAY better than they did, but in a band mix it sounded stail. No smooth drive like I was goin for, and I've heard tale that I should swap the Filter caps from 50x50uf to 32x32uf and the other to 16x16uf ( how does this effect tone?)
> Other than that, now you have explained the gain stage line up on my amp, what is a good order to start my pre tubes? I'm not real straight on the mixed gain stage thing, you're saying V1 V2 and V3 are all integrated gain stage?
> I only ran a balanced tube in the PI cause sombody told me I should....what is the difference?
> 
> ....... sorry for bein a pain in the a@#!!!!



Have you thought about replacing the tubes with KT66's? That's what the original's ran. I've been dying to try those. I finally bought and amp that will run those and I think I will get a pair of Gold Lions to try in it. It would take a little bit of modding to get the amp to run EL34's. Swapping the screen resistors is one thing, but you have to alter the bias circuit to allow the adjusting of the 34's. Also, 6L6's use 900mA per tube for the heater and 34's use 1500mA per tube. You have to consider whether the power tranny is stout enough to supply the 6.3V to the preamp and power tubes.

As I said, you have a lot of tubes, but you do not know what you have. It's a crap shoot and all you can do is try some and hope you are happy with the combination. I would put your best tube in V1 and then the best RCA Black Plate in V2. The PI (V3) does not have to be balanced. The amps circuits are not balanced, therefore you do not need a balanced tube. Some guys like a highly lopsided PI tube as it generates a complex harmonic content. Something like a 12DW7 is popular with harmonica players. It is a 12AX7 on one triode (100 gain factor) and a 12AU7 on the other triode (17 gain factor). Now that's lopsided. 

Changing your power filters will alter the sound in what is best described as tightness and looseness. Going from 50's to 32's will induce a little more ripple in the power supply and give the amp a looser sound.

I would get rid of the 5881's as you don't know how old they are and they could be causing 70 per cent of your crappy sound. I would suggest the KT66's. If you can't spring for the Gold Lions, there are two other companies that make them. Also, the bias setting is really important on this amp. You don't want to run this amp cold or it will sound like shit.

Post up what you plan to do.


----------



## guitarmartin416

I'm thinkin I may try the KT66 just for the simplicity of it, do I need to change the resistors or anything or are they direct replacement? I'm goin for that bigger smooth drive and clean (you think those will do that?), I don't want to use any pedals if I dont have to.

By the way, I read the post on Wilder's BB Blackface mod...... that was some sick shit!!!!!! If only I had the money! P2P is the way I would rather go, thats what all my Fenders are. I get more nervous as I read about the OT on these amps too.
I'm gonna test all my pre tubes, if you know anybody lookin for some, let me know. I could use the cash or I'm always down to barter for other stuff.


----------



## guitarmartin416

*Re: 6100LM Update*



core said:


> Hi guys, just wanted to give an update on the 6100LM. Got it back from the shop and it seems to be in great working order and sounds great.
> 
> He rebiased it and I can now see the orange glow a lot better with a ting of blue. He didn't have to change the power tubes as the bias was all it needed. He changed a couple preamp tubes and that was all for that. He resoldered a few connections and especially around a certain chip that this amp has. What it does I forget, I think it has to do with the XLR out which now is nearly silent through my recording gear. Before it was very loud and obnoxious.
> 
> The only problem it still has is a crackle here and there which I can live with except when recording with a mic I would need to eliminate that. But maybe it will add to it lol!
> 
> 
> Now that I know what the amp is about and has been checked out I may start to delve into older preamp tube brands as you guys are doing. Starting with Marty's suggestions for putting a 7025 in V1 and going from there.
> 
> I have a question and maybe someone can help. When going from the XLR into the recording interface, power amp muted on this amp is this cutting out any additional gain stages or circuitry that adds to the gain? What I hear in the monitors is a very low gain tone quite unlike what comes through the cab. Is this normal or should I be hearing the whole tone as I would through a cab?
> 
> The only reason is I do late night recordings when my wife is asleep and I want a similar tone. If not I can always add some tone in cubase. It's not bad actually.




when running a tube amp in particular, you have 3 main factors in your gain....
Power Tubes
Pre amp Tubes
Speakers
......all have a huge impact on your tone, muting your amp takes things out of the "tone equation" speaker break up is huge!to really get a good sounding gain, I'm afraid you will have to wait till decent hours of the day....or piss off the neighbors!!!!

hope that helps a bit.


----------



## RiverRatt

You have any Brimars for sale/trade? I'd like to try one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Jon went with the Gold Lion KT66's and he said they smoked in that amp. They are a direct drop in, because that's what should have been in the amp instead of the 5881. Someone changed them out to the 5881's. 

Just like a 6CA7 is the American version of an EL34, a KT66 is the British version of a 6L6. Although these tubes have the same electronic specifications, they all sound different. A KT66 to me is a superior 6L6 with it's own tonal characteristics. I think you will like the way they sound.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Jon went with the Gold Lion KT66's and he said they smoked in that amp. They are a direct drop in, because that's what should have been in the amp instead of the 5881. Someone changed them out to the 5881's.
> 
> Just like a 6CA7 is the American version of an EL34, a KT66 is the British version of a 6L6. Although these tubes have the same electronic specifications, they all sound different. A KT66 to me is a superior 6L6 with it's own tonal characteristics. I think you will like the way they sound.



Thats what I hear.... thanks for the reassurance! too bad I live so far, I'd love to do some comparison things with you...I'm still in the learning stage! lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


>



Brought this over to have another look at it.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> You have any Brimars for sale/trade? I'd like to try one.





so far, I have a shitload of '58 RCA blackplates, some '64 Telefunkin, and haven't checked the codes on the miscellaneous tubes yet....all from vintage organs and stuff. I'm sure nothing after '67 I'll let you know.

.....now if I can find some decent KT66's


----------



## guitarmartin416

P.S. I love this forum.....why did I wait so long?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. After looking at this I will say a 7025 will give you the best Clean channel and it is independent of any other preamp tubes. If you can't find a good NOS RCA 7025, then I will say try a TAD7025. V2B and V6A and B are your Crunch channel. This is the primary gain tube for both the Crunch and the Lead channels. This is a very important tube. I would strongly recommend an NOS tub in this slot. If not, then a Tung-Sol. V3, V4, V5 and V6 can be either Tung-Sol's or Mullard RI's. 

Personally, if it were mine. I'd run an RCA 7025 in V1 and then a Telefunken in V2 (as this is the flavor tube for both the Crunch and Lead channels). V3 and V6 would be Raytheon Black Plates and V4 and V5 would be either Raytheon Gray Plates, Matsushita Slant Getters or GE Short Black Plates.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Jon went with the Gold Lion KT66's and he said they smoked in that amp. They are a direct drop in, because that's what should have been in the amp instead of the 5881. Someone changed them out to the 5881's.
> 
> Just like a 6CA7 is the American version of an EL34, a KT66 is the British version of a 6L6. Although these tubes have the same electronic specifications, they all sound different. A KT66 to me is a superior 6L6 with it's own tonal characteristics. I think you will like the way they sound.



will the KT66's fit? I have the thinner cab on my BB


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's the tube that came stock in it. Give the Tube Depot or Tube Store a buzz and ask them. I'm just saying that the Bluesbreaker sound was the KT66's.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it's the tube that came stock in it. Give the Tube Depot or Tube Store a buzz and ask them. I'm just saying that the Bluesbreaker sound was the KT66's.



The original BB had a cab of 10.5", mine is only 9 or so.  hope thats enough


----------



## core

*Re: 6100LM Update*



guitarmartin416 said:


> when running a tube amp in particular, you have 3 main factors in your gain....
> Power Tubes
> Pre amp Tubes
> Speakers
> ......all have a huge impact on your tone, muting your amp takes things out of the "tone equation" speaker break up is huge!to really get a good sounding gain, I'm afraid you will have to wait till decent hours of the day....or piss off the neighbors!!!!
> 
> hope that helps a bit.



Thanks, yeah I kinda figured that. It'll do for scratch tracks and when I'm ready to go for it I'll record the good stuff mic'd up.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. After looking at this I will say a 7025 will give you the best Clean channel and it is independent of any other preamp tubes. If you can't find a good NOS RCA 7025, then I will say try a TAD7025. V2B and V6A and B are your Crunch channel. This is the primary gain tube for both the Crunch and the Lead channels. This is a very important tube. I would strongly recommend an NOS tub in this slot. If not, then a Tung-Sol. V3, V4, V5 and V6 can be either Tung-Sol's or Mullard RI's.
> 
> Personally, if it were mine. I'd run an RCA 7025 in V1 and then a Telefunken in V2 (as this is the flavor tube for both the Crunch and Lead channels). V3 and V6 would be Raytheon Black Plates and V4 and V5 would be either Raytheon Gray Plates, Matsushita Slant Getters or GE Short Black Plates.



Ok great, I will take those into consideration although I'm not quite understanding the V6A and B. This is one tube correct? And I'm assuming V2 is split into two for CH2 and CH3?

Luckily they are not in immediate need anywhere so I can spend some time to hunt down some NOS ones without dropping a lot of cash all at once. This gives me a lot to go on. Thanks again!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Personally, if it were mine. I'd run an RCA 7025 in V1 and then a Telefunken in V2 (as this is the flavor tube for both the Crunch and Lead channels). V3 and V6 would be Raytheon Black Plates and V4 and V5 would be either Raytheon Gray Plates, Matsushita Slant Getters or GE Short Black Plates.



You must be liking those Matsushitas! Having any luck finding them? I've gotten two really good deals on them. Under $50 for five tubes, shipping and all. They are an incredible value right now (although there is one dude asking $115 for a pair). There's a guy on ebay who has 10 MIJ Raytheons in one lot, but I don't think they are Matsushita.


----------



## LuredMaul

I joined this forum based on reading this thread.
On that note Thanks to all who recommended the Tunsol-Re-issue and Mullard 12ax7's in V1 & V2 of myy TSL100.
I now have almost a 3D effect in the mids rather than overly compressed JJ soup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Ok great, I will take those into consideration although I'm not quite understanding the V6A and B. This is one tube correct? And I'm assuming V2 is split into two for CH2 and CH3?
> 
> Luckily they are not in immediate need anywhere so I can spend some time to hunt down some NOS ones without dropping a lot of cash all at once. This gives me a lot to go on. Thanks again!



Each 12AX7 has two completely independent circuits inside the glass tube. A 12AX7 is call a dual triode, because it has two circuits, Triode A and Triode B. 

In your amp V2A is the primary gain stage for the Lead channel. V2B is the primary gain stage for your Crunch channel.

I will say that I've never seen a Marshall with seven stages of gain for the Lead channel. That's a shitload of gain.


----------



## RiverRatt

LuredMaul said:


> I joined this forum based on reading this thread.
> On that note Thanks to all who recommended the Tunsol-Re-issue and Mullard 12ax7's in V1 & V2 of myy TSL100.
> I now have almost a 3D effect in the mids rather than overly compressed JJ soup.



Welcome! 

Now, we must get you addicted to Philips and Telefunken and the evil Raytheon black plate. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did Marty-Wan's apprentice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LuredMaul said:


> I joined this forum based on reading this thread.
> On that note Thanks to all who recommended the Tunsol-Re-issue and Mullard 12ax7's in V1 & V2 of myy TSL100.
> I now have almost a 3D effect in the mids rather than overly compressed JJ soup.



Yes...welcome. You are invited to stay as long as you like. Maybe you will take that plunge and buy that first NOS tubes. That's all it takes. They are like Lay's potato chips. You can't just buy one.


----------



## LuredMaul

What are we looking at price wise for a Pair/Quad of ultra Marty hand selected NOS for a TSL?


----------



## solarburn

Man there's some real sicko's on this thread...:eek2:

Wish I had some Lays potato chips now though!


----------



## MartyStrat54

LuredMaul said:


> What are we looking at price wise for a Pair/Quad of ultra Marty hand selected NOS for a TSL?



I'm out of quad sets of NOS power tubes. Christmas cleaned me out. I can help you with a great V1 and V2. You can use current production tubes for V3 and V4. If interested, PM me and we can discuss it further.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome!
> 
> Now, we must get you addicted to Philips and Telefunken and the evil Raytheon black plate. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did Marty-Wan's apprentice.





I too have been bitten by this bug, and joined this forum solely on this thread alone! It has been extremely helpful.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, we've all learned a lot about different tubes and what sounds good. My opinions have changed drastically since I started hanging out here. I only had a handful of RCA and GE tubes to play with. I couldn't go back to using CP tubes in my DSL50. That Raytheon black plate in V2 was a real eye-opener. I haven't found a single V1 tube that doesn't sound better with the Raytheon behind it. Now that I have a good idea of what I like, I enjoy looking for bargains on eBay - and there are some good ones out there if you know what to look for. My favorite V1 tube is still the Telefunken smooth plate, but there are a lot of others I've tried that I would be perfectly happy using. They all have their own personality. It's a fun hobby, and it's cheaper than collecting guitars and amps.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> Well, we've all learned a lot about different tubes and what sounds good. My opinions have changed drastically since I started hanging out here. I only had a handful of RCA and GE tubes to play with. I couldn't go back to using CP tubes in my DSL50. That Raytheon black plate in V2 was a real eye-opener. I haven't found a single V1 tube that doesn't sound better with the Raytheon behind it. Now that I have a good idea of what I like, I enjoy looking for bargains on eBay - and there are some good ones out there if you know what to look for. My favorite V1 tube is still the Telefunken smooth plate, but there are a lot of others I've tried that I would be perfectly happy using. They all have their own personality. It's a fun hobby, and it's cheaper than collecting guitars and amps.



lol, I concurr. Unfortunately I still have the GEAR bug too!!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

My 4 USA valves arrived this morning, I got 2 GE 7025 and 1 GE Jan 12ax7a and 1 Sylvania Jan 12ax7wa, got the lot for £17 which cant be bad as thats close to the price for a couple of current production JJs over this side of the pond. Thats the lot as far as valves i was waiting for, but Ive got my eye on a couple of Ebay auctions, never hurts to keep track of potential bargains!

Some tube shots


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Brought this over to have another look at it.


most all marshall's v1 is clean?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> most all marshall's v1 is clean?



On most of them it is. The 6100 is an odd duck when it comes to its preamp tubes. Some of the older Marshall's only use one half of V1 and then all of V2. It all depends on the amp. 800's were made different too. Some had cascading preamp circuits and some models did not. And then you have Wegman's 800. It has an odd use of preamp tubes as well. This is the 2205 or 2210.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge-Great shots. Those are some nice tubes for a great price. You're making me jealous. People overlook GE and they were actually in the top three of US tube makers. (GE and Sylvania sold tubes to each other all the time.) However, yours are real GE's and the JAN tubes are nice as well.

Good luck with your other auctions. I can tell you are deep into buying tubes. It's a sickness. Holding a tube in your hand that was made in 1957 and wondering how it is going to sound in your guitar amp...priceless.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Marty, got my tubes in today and man o' man. they do sound good. Thanks for the good advice. 

ASC-Another Satisfied Customer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gotta keep posting some info or comments as this thread is slipping three or four pages back. I'm not used to go digging for it.

How's everyone's Matsushita's sounding? I like mine.

Ratt, have you ever heard of a Raytheon ARBL? What does that stand for? Lori is giving me two of these to make up for the bad Sonotone side-getter. She had a couple of pairs listed. I went with the one's that had a higher test score.

ARBL? Anyone?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well i bought a couple of the Baldwin branded Raytheon blackplates for arounf £22 for the pair, they test as good as new, hope the link works 

Matched Pair Raytheon 12AX7 A Audio Preamp Tubes on eBay (end time 11-Jan-10 00:48:56 GMT)

So how would these stack up against this one i already have, i think the one i have has a square getter, and the 2 baldwin ones have halo getters, any difference in these? In fact what difference do the different getters make in valves?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have three of the JRP's. One with the box. These go for as much as $200 USD on some tube sites. I don't know if they ever sell them for that, but I've seen them priced that way. The two that you won from Reed are solid Black Plates and are of the type we use in V2 if they are of high gain.

If I remember right, you got a smoking deal on the JRP. I did too on mine. One was a two tube auction and I think I got them for $55 for the pair. The other one NIB I got for $47. I will say this, it doesn't guarantee that they will sound good. Some military tubes can be stiff sounding if they are later production. If they are WA's made before 1966, these are the better sounding tubes.

The military used tubes for purposes other than audio. They were used in fighter planes and B-52's. They removed the musical aspect out of the tube in favor of ruggedness and fail safe operation.

In some of my other posts I have warned against buying military tubes. The initial sense is to rush out and buy them. However, as I said, military tubes can sound really good or they can sound as bad as a Sovtek. Military tubes made by Philips ECG from 1980 to 1988 fall under this category. They are listed as the second coming of Christ, when in fact they sound really bad and should be kept away from the public. Now I will say that the non-military tubes that ECG made were the best available since no one else was making tubes. Most American amp manufacturers were buying as many power tubes as possible and this (as I said before) actually caused a rise in tube consumption. Philips ECG was the old main Sylvania plant, so the 6550's, 6L6's, 5881's and 6CA7's were still the real deal. If you find a quad of NIB ECG 6CA7's, they will probably be priced around $400+. 6550's even more.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gotta keep posting some info or comments as this thread is slipping three or four pages back. I'm not used to go digging for it.
> 
> How's everyone's Matsushita's sounding? I like mine.
> 
> Ratt, have you ever heard of a Raytheon ARBL? What does that stand for? Lori is giving me two of these to make up for the bad Sonotone side-getter. She had a couple of pairs listed. I went with the one's that had a higher test score.
> 
> ARBL? Anyone?



I'm waiting for the DSL to get back and then I can properly test those Matsushitas that I got recently. They sound good in the NT but the Marshall really likes these in V1 and it sounds better anyways...

Other than that I'm just watching what others are getting and trying.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are some really nice tubes by NEC that I would like to try. Some are offshoots of 12AX7's and they are basically different versions of a 7025 or 6681. What is rare is just a regular NEC 12AX7. Most are 12DM7's. Another rare tube would be a Hitachi.

I think I'm going Japanense, I think I'm going Japanese, I really think so.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got my last orders in today. I haven't had much playing time on them - it's fockin' cold in my music room!

Here are the United Electron 7025s. The one on the left says "Made in USA" and the one on the right says "Made in England". The seller was of the opinion that these are Japanese tubes. They look very much like my 1966 Mullard except for the number of seams in the tops. Notice the codes on the sides - they look like they were made in 1977 and 1978? They tested 42/43 and 43/46 on a TV-7. My first impression is that they are brighter than my Mullards and Matsushitas. Any guesses on where they were made? 













I was pleasantly surprised by this next tube. It's my first Tung-Sol and looks a lot like my Sylvania BP construction-wise, except for the gray plates. It's a very nice-sounding tube. Not quite as edgy as the Philips stuff, but pretty aggressive. I think it might be a good candidate for V2 when things thaw out a little. It tested 44/50 on a TV-7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I did an extensive search. A hopeful page wouldn't load and that was disappointing. In one search, I found mention of a special audiophile tube that had a 9A pinout. It was a GE labeled United Electron. Now this does make a little sense in the fact that GE and Sylvania were the last two tube manufacturer's in the country. I don't know who else was making tubes in 77 or 78, but I know GE and Sylvania still were. 

Now the rules for stating the country of origin was pretty loose over in Japan. After all, the Japanese used to sell items in this country that stated, Made In USA." They weren't lying. There is a Usa, Japan and the items were in fact made there. Needless to say this didn't fly with certain government departments. Both of those tubes could be made in Japan and I would say that the labeling is very similar and therefore done at the same location. You didn't mention if the construction was the same, but I assume that they are identical. This would rule out two different countries of origin if the seams on the top are identical and the plate construction, etc. I am hoping this one page will unlock, because it contained some United Electron information.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gotta keep posting some info or comments as this thread is slipping three or four pages back. I'm not used to go digging for it.
> 
> How's everyone's Matsushita's sounding? I like mine.
> 
> Ratt, have you ever heard of a Raytheon ARBL? What does that stand for? Lori is giving me two of these to make up for the bad Sonotone side-getter. She had a couple of pairs listed. I went with the one's that had a higher test score.
> 
> ARBL? Anyone?



I've been combing the net and I can't come up with much on ARBL tubes. There are plenty for sale but no explanation of the name. I found a picture of a Raytheon BP with AR stamped near the top of the tube. There's a thread at The Gear Page about MIJ tubes and most of the talk about ARBL Raytheons has to do with Raytheons with short gray plates and whether or not they were all MIJ. They were saying that Raytheon moved all 12AX7 production to Japan in 1962. Maybe it's just a factory code for the tube type, like I63 and I65 on Mullards and other Philips tubes. The examples I found had ARBL written near the top of the tube in a font similar to the G.E. tubes. 

Here's a link to that thread. It rambles and never seems to say anything conclusive.

MIJ Raytheons??? - The Gear Page


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I did an extensive search. A hopeful page wouldn't load and that was disappointing. In one search, I found mention of a special audiophile tube that had a 9A pinout. It was a GE labeled United Electron. Now this does make a little sense in the fact that GE and Sylvania were the last two tube manufacturer's in the country. I don't know who else was making tubes in 77 or 78, but I know GE and Sylvania still were.
> 
> Now the rules for stating the country of origin was pretty loose over in Japan. After all, the Japanese used to sell items in this country that stated, Made In USA." They weren't lying. There is a Usa, Japan and the items were in fact made there. Needless to say this didn't fly with certain government departments. Both of those tubes could be made in Japan and I would say that the labeling is very similar and therefore done at the same location. You didn't mention if the construction was the same, but I assume that they are identical. This would rule out two different countries of origin if the seams on the top are identical and the plate construction, etc. I am hoping this one page will unlock, because it contained some United Electron information.



The construction appears to be identical. Same as the I63 Mullard as I mentioned. The seams make me think Matsushita. The ones I have always have four seams, with one angle being less distinct than the other. I'm thinking the tone of these is not quite up to par with the older Realistic Matsushitas I have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just wanted to say that I'm glad we have some new people floating around here in the thread. Although this thread's view numbers are up, the amount of posts has slowed down dramatically. I don't know if I need to do something or what, but we need to keep activity of this thread. For the most part, it is now three to four pages back from the current list of threads.

Whatever, I need to do something.


----------



## guitarmartin416

I can say, I'll give you a better update on my pre tubes, when I can figure out what the fuck I can do with my power tubes!!!!!!!! This amp is a pain in the ASS!!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to have to find something to talk about other than new tubes. I've bought way too much. I think this year I may try to pick up another amp just so I'll have somewhere else to put everything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, thanks for your effort. As I said before, I think the end of the tube era is more of a mystery than the beginning of it. I don't think those guys are quite right about when Raytheon switched over to MIJ. I have 1964 Black Plates and I think that is the last year for them. A bunch were made in 1959 and 1962. 

Now I have tubes that as I've said before have the semi-transparent ink that says in very small letters, "MIJ." Many of these tubes are labeled Raytheon and they are gray plates and "do not" have slant getters. I've had this for a while, way before the Matsushita craze hit. (Blame it on Solar.)

It drives me nuts when 70 year-old info is available on audio tube lore, but 40 year-old info is not available. It's like they didn't want people to know what they were up to back then or right now.

If I get off my butt, I will try to gather up some of the tubes that were MIJ, but came in the RCA or Raytheon box that said MIUSA. You pull the tube out and you say, "Ah great...nothing like an American made tube."


----------



## Landshark

I'll soon be able to help... Soon as that phat tax check comes in. I have a suprise guest to the preamp tube thread...


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Came across these 2 valves, out of curisoity i emailed the seller asking if they had been tested etc, his reply was

"STEVE WE DON'T TEST NEW VALVES. Be no good for a guitar amp, althought i gota couple of cheap Russian ones in my amp at the mo and unwanted noise they sure have but i quite like it. I would say theses are probably from Eastern Euro.
Just El cheapos.

- *ragandbone*"



He is selling a Philips and an RFT so for the money its a good deal, but he dont seem to clued up about them, and its to much of a crap shoot if they have not been tested.


----------



## guitarmartin416

So, I have a ribbed Telefunken....says ecc83, code is worn off. Strange part....says made in Germany. NOT WEST GERMANY! and has RTD printed on the side. Came out of same amp with my other Tele's that date to '64. Any ideas about this tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

Does it have a diamond bottom?


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> Does it have a diamond bottom?



yup.


----------



## RiverRatt

I wish I knew more about Telefunken. At some point Philips had a hand in their operation - Telefunken is listed in the Philips factory code book, but I've never seen a Telefunken with a pinched top like a Philips tube. BUT the Ei factory in Yugoslavia was owned by Philips and supposedly acquired the Telefunken equipment when they stopped production. Ei ECC83s with smooth plates are supposed to be copies of the Tele smooth plate, and they also have a pinched top like other Philips tubes. It's fun speculating about all this, but I don't think we're ever going to know the history behind some of these oddball tubes that pop up from time to time.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> I wish I knew more about Telefunken. At some point Philips had a hand in their operation - Telefunken is listed in the Philips factory code book, but I've never seen a Telefunken with a pinched top like a Philips tube. BUT the Ei factory in Yugoslavia was owned by Philips and supposedly acquired the Telefunken equipment when they stopped production. Ei ECC83s with smooth plates are supposed to be copies of the Tele smooth plate, and they also have a pinched top like other Philips tubes. It's fun speculating about all this, but I don't think we're ever going to know the history behind some of these oddball tubes that pop up from time to time.



ya right.  It keeps our minds movin though!!!!


----------



## racko7566

Heres a little smut of the three fine ladies I met in an ebay lounge, and to think they all went home with me for 66 bucks.






Marty got me hooked on black plates by raytheon and I was wondering if anyone knows why and what makes them black? And is the material conductive, and does it make a sonic difference, or is it just a process in manufacturing that is not for performance. Thanks for any info guys and gals.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice. I wish I could find some that cheap. All the ones I see on eBay test low and sell high. For some reason or another, it seems popular to sell them in matched pairs, too. I can't figure that one out.

I know that Marty has posted the info about the black plates vs. gray plates before, but I can't find it. It's somewhere in this thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Heres a little smut of the three fine ladies I met in an ebay lounge, and to think they all went home with me for 66 bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marty got me hooked on black plates by raytheon and I was wondering if anyone knows why and what makes them black? And is the material conductive, and does it make a sonic difference, or is it just a process in manufacturing that is not for performance. Thanks for any info guys and gals.



Nice Tubes. Those are really close to being made in Japan. The Japanese tubes have the same label, except it says, "Select" instead of "Made In USA."

Tubes have a vacuum and the laws of physics work differently inside a vacuum. I will keep this simple. A black plate reflects heat better than a gray plate. A Raytheon Black Plate is made so much better than an RCA Black Plate. The materials used are like night and day. The plates are super thin nickle and the Raytheon coating "looks" like it is black metal. An RCA looks like someone painted it on. 

Anything that has anything to do with what is going on inside a tube will affect tone. The coating on a Raytheon is super thin, yet it expels heat with ease and adds "mojo" to the tone of the tube. The gray formulas came out first and then the black plates. The gray plates won out as a cheaper alternative. Most engineers feel the gray plates have the better tone. Obviously there are more of them...yes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Please see my post in the Power Tube thread. I didn't see it coming.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are one of the 41,470 viewers that have visited this thread, I welcome you. Please feel free to look around and don't hesitate to ask any questions. We have some new regulars here and anyone can become a regular. All you have to do is hang out here a little each day. Pretty soon you'll be talking tube talk like a pro. 

If you have a specific amp that you want to put new tubes in, we can fix you up.

TooB PorN is highly appreciated. Any pictures are a big plus.

Show us your Brimars, Mullards, Bugle Boys, Valvo's and any other NOS tube.

I'd like to thank Racko again for his latest pictures of the heavenly Raytheon Black Plates. A trio of perfection.


----------



## racko7566

Thanks for the info Marty.


----------



## movo

Some tubes from my JCM Superbass. As Marty said: post your pictures!


----------



## guitarmartin416

I'VE HIT THE MOTHER LOAD!!!!!!!! Just pulled 40 or so more pre tubes from an old organ, I'll post later to let ya know what they are......so far seen a fe Telefunken, black plate RCA, GE and a slew of others I have to take codes from. I shall report soon!!!!


----------



## solarburn

guitarmartin416 said:


> I'VE HIT THE MOTHER LOAD!!!!!!!! Just pulled 40 or so more pre tubes from an old organ, I'll post later to let ya know what they are......so far seen a fe Telefunken, black plate RCA, GE and a slew of others I have to take codes from. I shall report soon!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, if I die without getting any pulls from a Baldwin organ I am going to throw a shit fit. Where do these organs come from? How are they found?

I could always blame it on Ratt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice pictures MOVO. You got a sweet amp as well.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know, if I die without getting any pulls from a Baldwin organ I am going to throw a shit fit. Where do these organs come from? How are they found?
> 
> I could always blame it on Ratt.





watch for old Wurlitzer organs. They were made in my neighborhood just outside Buffalo, usually have good American tubes in them. People give these organs away, and often throw them out! Usually contain 30 to 50 pre amp tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Guitarmartin, if any of those are Raytheons, please remember your forum buddies.... please?? At least tell us before you put them on eBay.

Hell, I own a newspaper and I'm not even advertising for these things. Duh! I'll have a classified ad in the Wanted section by next week. Marty, if I find a couple of good ones, I'll let you fly down and take it apart! 

I've seen them in thrift stores and antique malls for anywhere from $100 (solid state - DAMN) to $800. The $800 was a Conn. You could look in the back and see row after row after row of preamp tubes. There had to have been easily more than 50. Problem was, all the ones I could see well enough in the gloom and through the dust were cleartop 12AU7s. I don't know if there were 12AX7s in there or not. I still wish I'd bought it but I was 100 miles away in Alabama with no way to get it home and my wife trying to pull me out the door. I'm still haunted by mental images of all those tubes... I've even dreamed about finding tubes in little out of the way junk stores.


----------



## guitarmartin416

READY???????





24- RCA Black plate white and red lettering dating from '56-59
5- Telefunken ribbed and smooth
6- GE
1- Webcor British made, can't find much info on it.
....and still researching @ 15 more that the lables are gone.

now which one will give me best gain, in V1....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well remember that the BB has a slightly different signal path. It only uses ohe half of V1 (V1A). Then it uses all of V2. So V1 is still you "tone" tube. I would roll the Telefunken's with some RCA Black Plates in V2. I've said this before and I am going by what you stated. Those RCA Black Plates are old. They could be OE tubes. If so, they may be weak. Raytheon's for some reason seem to stay stronger longer than an RCA. Regardless, the Telefunken's are your best V1 tubes and the RCA's are your V2's. The Webcor is probably a Mullard. Do you see any small lettering on the tube like, "I63?" Does the top of the tube have seams? If so, you could give it a shot in V1, you might like it better.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well remember that the BB has a slightly different signal path. It only uses ohe half of V1 (V1A). Then it uses all of V2. So V1 is still you "tone" tube. I would roll the Telefunken's with some RCA Black Plates in V2. I've said this before and I am going by what you stated. Those RCA Black Plates are old. They could be OE tubes. If so, they may be weak. Raytheon's for some reason seem to stay stronger longer than an RCA. Regardless, the Telefunken's are your best V1 tubes and the RCA's are your V2's. The Webcor is probably a Mullard. Do you see any small lettering on the tube like, "I63?" Does the top of the tube have seams? If so, you could give it a shot in V1, you might like it better.





seam at the top, code on bottom says B11 I think or 8 1 I 4( hard to make out )


----------



## guitarmartin416

What you think I should try first in my Bandmaster?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> READY???????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 24- RCA Black plate white and red lettering dating from '56-59
> 5- Telefunken ribbed and smooth
> 6- GE
> 1- Webcor British made, can't find much info on it.
> ....and still researching @ 15 more that the lables are gone.
> 
> now which one will give me best gain, in V1....



how on earth did you find an old organ? did you pay for it? and was that price worth the 5 telefunkens alone? Im going to to start going to all the local second hand/charity shops and scoure the press for old audio equipment, i wants me a bargain!


----------



## MartyStrat54

On those 15 unknowns, look for exact similarities and group them together. Look for any codes that might be left. RCA is 274 and GE is 188. Even a trace of the RCA orange/red lettering is a clue. There could be some RCA Gray Plates.
GE usually had white lettering on their tubes. Also, most of the USA tube makers had acid etched part numbers or an ink that was extremely hard to remove. Look for a stretched octagon with 12AX7 inside of it. That's and RCA. GE has a stencil look that consisted of the part number with USA and a series of dots. All of this was sort of a medium gray color. Sylvania had a dark gold ink that was very hard and they used this to label the part number.

Any sort of clue will be helpful, especially pictures. The plate design is usually the best clue.


----------



## guitarmartin416

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> how on earth did you find an old organ? did you pay for it? and was that price worth the 5 telefunkens alone? Im going to to start going to all the local second hand/charity shops and scoure the press for old audio equipment, i wants me a bargain!





on the side of the road. lol. ALWAYS STOP AND CHECK!!!!!



Marty, I'll check through a bunch tonight. Thanks for the info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> how on earth did you find an old organ? did you pay for it? and was that price worth the 5 telefunkens alone? Im going to to start going to all the local second hand/charity shops and scoure the press for old audio equipment, i wants me a bargain!



Stand in line...everybody wants to do this.


----------



## guitarmartin416

some of the mystery tubes have a similar rectangle logo like RCA but much finer detail print. are they still RCA. and yes I black and grey plate


----------



## RiverRatt

Thought I'd throw this up. Here's about half a year's worth of scrounging and a little buying. These are just the preamp tubes I'm keeping. I've got a bunch of 12AU7s (some RCA cleartops), a matched pair of RFT EL34s from Marty, and a whole bunch of useless junk. If anyone wants a big ol' 5R4 or 5U4GB rectifer or needs a TV tube, drop me a note.






Top row, left to right: 
Mullard CV4004/12AT7
Raytheon 12AT7
Tung-Sol 12BH7
GE 12BH7
RCA 12BZ7
RCA/GE 12BZ7

2nd row: 
Sonotone 12AX7A/7025 cleartop (RCA?) RARE
Sonotone 12AX7A/ECC83 cleartop (RCA?) RARE
Sonotone 12AX7A/ECC83 cleartop (RCA?) RARE
GE 7025
Sylvania 12AX7 black plate
Raytheon 12AX7 black plate
Tung-Sol 12AX7 long gray plate

3rd row:
Ei ECC83 Yugoslavia (Philips)
Ei ECC83 Yugoslavia (Philips)
Realistic/Matsushita 12AX7 Japan (Philips)
Realistic/Matsushita 12AX7 Japan (Philips)
United Electron 7025 Japan? (Philips)
United Electron 7025 Japan? (Philips)
Electro Home 12AX7 Canada (Philips)

Bottom row:
GE 12AX7
Sylvania 12AX7
RFT 7025A E.Germany
RFT ECC83 E.Germany
GE/Mullard 6681 (12AX7/ECC83/6681) Gt. Britain (Philips)
Telefunken ECC83 Germany smooth plate diamond bottom 
Eico Amperex 12AX7 Holland (Philips)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man that's a damn nice mess of fish you got there. See kids, with a little patience, money and luck, you could have a tube collection like Ratt. Man that is nice. Good job...now if you could just find a Baldwin loaded with Raytheon Black Plates, I would be your friend forever and ever.


----------



## LuredMaul

I manage a Music Store in the Midwest..........You don't know how many old Organs where offered to me *For FREE* that I turned away in the last 19yrs *shakes head*...........I am such a dumb ass. thing is I knew they where full of tubes but I wasn't playing a tube amp so it never acured to me AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


----------



## wegman

guitarmartin416 said:


> READY???????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 24- RCA Black plate white and red lettering dating from '56-59
> 5- Telefunken ribbed and smooth
> 6- GE
> 1- Webcor British made, can't find much info on it.
> ....and still researching @ 15 more that the lables are gone.
> 
> now which one will give me best gain, in V1....



Nice score man.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LuredMaul said:


> I manage a Music Store in the Midwest..........You don't know how many old Organs where offered to me *For FREE* that I turned away in the last 19yrs *shakes head*...........I am such a dumb ass. thing is I knew they where full of tubes but I wasn't playing a tube amp so it never acured to me AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH



I just put on some Carpenters and started crying over what you said. I don't know what makes me feel worse. The fact that you didn't recover any of the tubes, or the fact that the organs went to the dump and all the pretty tubes were lost forever.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## wegman

I live in the country and we have a landfill where we take our garbage. I now take our garbage every Sat in the hope that I will score another orphaned organ. So far I have come up empty.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just found a line on a free Baldwin Model 5 organ - I think that's one of the good ones. The people who have it don't answer their phone. I've left messages and email! 

Edit: Nevermind. It uses 43 6SN7s. The power amp and Leslie cabinet would still be sweet, but what in the hell do you do with 43 6SN7s?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, that's an old organ. A 6SN7 was the forerunner of a 12AU7. You got to remember that a tube with a mu of 15 was hot shit back in 1940. Many audiophile's still use 6SN7's in their tube amps.

Here is a good quick read.

The 6SN7 - the best general-purpose triode?

I'm also going to look into this book, Sibley, Ludwell, Tube Lore. It came out in 1996 and covers all tubes including obscure ones. Sounds interesting.

Those 6SN7's do have a market albeit not like a 12AX7.


----------



## LuredMaul

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just put on some Carpenters and started crying over what you said. I don't know what makes me feel worse. The fact that you didn't recover any of the tubes, or the fact that the organs went to the dump and all the pretty tubes were lost forever.:eek2::eek2:




The worst part for me is; It's not like I don't know... It just never clicked in my head because I wasn't into it.....not because I didn't know tubes where valuble.

I'm 38 and I even remember tube checkers in drugstores n things


----------



## Bret138

I've been on the forum a while..haven't had a chance to get into this thread yet though..

sorry if there is a current discussion going on in here i was just seeing if anyone has some suggestions for me..

I'm thinking about re-tubing a JMP 1987S I picked up a few months ago..

I was thinking NOS for pre-amp, and CP for power tubes because I go through those somewhat quickly..

I'm going to go by a store here in manhattan (they claim to have a pretty decent selection) just to see what i can find 

dBm- We Got TUBES!!!

any suggestions from their list..or any suggestions at all would be appreciated!


----------



## RiverRatt

It wasn't just organs that went into the dump. TVs, Hi-Fi sets, console stereos, table top radios, all had the potential of having some nice audio tubes in them. My dad bought an estate last year - an old farmhouse with barns, ponds, etc. He told me there was an old TV in the barn. It had to have been going on 50 years old. I still managed to salvage a GE 6BQ5 from it. There's a friend of mine who's mother-in-law ran a motel for the last 50 years. She has a big basement room that's full of old TVs and stuff. I got a couple of them and they were 1970s Japanese junk, but there's also supposed to be an old console stereo in there. Might be good for a few 6BQ5s if it's the right age.

I'm getting hung-up on this Raytheon black plate thing. I know I'm obsessing, but I only have 1! 

Marty, I emailed Terry to see if he had any Raytheon BPs, and he has to check his stock, but he says even better are the yellow letter high-gain short plates. $30 per tube. Do you know anything about these? I don't think I've ever seen one except for a 12AT7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well they only list part numbers and brands, there is no price given on any of them, so it is hard to say if the prices are fair.

The preamp configuration is a little different in your amp. However, you need a solid tube in V1 and that would be a Telefunken or an Amperex. In V2 an American made Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Then a Sylvania or GE in V3.

If you ever do decide to go NOS for the power tubes, it's hard to beat Mullards. You can get RFT's for a reasonable price as well and they sound great.


----------



## Bret138

yeah thats exactly why I came here before i went by the store. I was just going to write down everyones suggestions then price check them at the store and go from there..


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I emailed Terry to see if he had any Raytheon BPs, and he has to check his stock, but he says even better are the yellow letter high-gain short plates. $30 per tube. Do you know anything about these? I don't think I've ever seen one except for a 12AT7.



Well I think you would agree with me that the tube is going to sound different, right? Short plate versus long plate, gray plate versus black plate. And what makes all of them high gain? If they have yellow letters and short plates they are all high gain?

These are the later production Raytheons. Similar to the era of Racko's tubes. Remember the yellow letter Raytheons later became the MIJ Raytheons.

Terry may be trying to sell you what he has versus what you want. Those short plate Raytheons are okay, but they do not sound like a black plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bret, the problem a lot of us are going to have is that we use DSLs and TSLs which have four preamp tubes and have picked out preamp sets accordingly. IIRC, with a 3-tube preamp like the 1987, you have one gain stage per channel on V1, and V2A is the second gain stage for both channels. If you jump the channels, you get all 3 gain stages. (Someone please jump in if that's wrong - I'm never 100% sure).
Raytheon black plates, Mullards, Matsushitas, RFTs, Telefunken, Amperex, Brimars, etc. are all favorites here, but they all have their own voice. It's hard to say what you will like. The ideal thing to do would be to buy as many as you can afford and decide on your own. 
If you want my recommendation, I would try a medium-gain smooth plate Telefunken in V1, a high-gain Raytheon black plate in V2, and V3 (the phase inverter) can be whatever you want. I prefer to use a high gain tube in V3 as well. It doesn't affect the tone so much as it opens the amp up.


----------



## guitarmartin416

The Tele's



The GE's



The RCA's




SCORE!!!!!!!

The rest of the Mullard and Tele's and Rca's are in my amps


----------



## RiverRatt

Niiiiccceee. I would really love to see more of that RCA in the bottom right corner. It looks like a clear top in the photo. Does it look something like this:






If it is the same, that's a sweet tube for V1 (provided it's still good). If you don't like it, drop me a PM and we might work out a sale/trade if you're interested.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> Niiiiccceee. I would really love to see more of that RCA in the bottom right corner. It looks like a clear top in the photo. Does it look something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is the same, that's a sweet tube for V1 (provided it's still good). If you don't like it, drop me a PM and we might work out a sale/trade if you're interested.



Ya, clear top, 12au7a


----------



## RiverRatt

My bad. I thought they were all 12AX7s.


----------



## guitarmartin416

RiverRatt said:


> My bad. I thought they were all 12AX7s.



lol.... the rest of them are. Let me know if your interested in any. I'm outta work for the winter, so I may part with some. Unfortunately I used the best ones in my other amps! i.e. Tele-RCA-Sylvania-Mullard


----------



## Bret138

Thanks guys, I'll see what i can find at that store today or tomorrow and go from there!


----------



## RiverRatt

guitarmartin416 said:


> lol.... the rest of them are. Let me know if your interested in any. I'm outta work for the winter, so I may part with some. Unfortunately I used the best ones in my other amps! i.e. Tele-RCA-Sylvania-Mullard



Nah, I've got 8 or 10 AU7s lying around, and most are cleartops. The AX7s are quite rare, but there's a 12AU7 under every rock.

I've been trying to find a cheap and easy DIY project like the Firefly 1-watt amp or the Matsumin Valvecaster boost pedal to use up some of my 12AU7s. The firefly uses the AU7 for an output tube, and the Valvecaster is a boost pedal that uses an AU7 as the driver. It uses a 9-volt wall wart for power, or you can actually run it off a 9-volt battery!?!?


----------



## guitarmartin416

I'm goin to check on a '30's Crosley console radio for 30 bucks, lets see what tubes i can come up with.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if it's a 30's model, there won't be any 9 pin tubes in it. It will be all octal base tubes. Back then most of the power tubes had a metal case instead of glass, such as an original 6L6.

Yeah, there's old and then there's too old. Some tube collector might want some of them strictly for their age whether they work or not, but you are not going to find any RCA 12AX7's. They didn't come out until 1947 and a 12AU7 came out a few years before that. I think right after WWII.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if it's a 30's model, there won't be any 9 pin tubes in it. It will be all octal base tubes. Back then most of the power tubes had a metal case instead of glass, such as an original 6L6.
> 
> Yeah, there's old and then there's too old. Some tube collector might want some of them strictly for their age whether they work or not, but you are not going to find any RCA 12AX7's. They didn't come out until 1947 and a 12AU7 came out a few years before that. I think right after WWII.





good to know, I like antiques anyway, but now I can narrow my search....


----------



## skeezix

Have any of you ever used "tubeman.com"?
TUBEMAN.COM​
Some of his stuff seems a touch high, but he's listing Ei 12ax7's at about 20$ a pop.

12AX7/ECC83 Ei Amplifier Grade

12AX7/ECC83 Ei Line Grade

Yay or nay? What say ye?
-- Thanks!


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. After looking at this I will say a 7025 will give you the best Clean channel and it is independent of any other preamp tubes. If you can't find a good NOS RCA 7025, then I will say try a TAD7025. V2B and V6A and B are your Crunch channel. This is the primary gain tube for both the Crunch and the Lead channels. This is a very important tube. I would strongly recommend an NOS tub in this slot. If not, then a Tung-Sol. V3, V4, V5 and V6 can be either Tung-Sol's or Mullard RI's.
> 
> Personally, if it were mine. I'd run an RCA 7025 in V1 and then a Telefunken in V2 (as this is the flavor tube for both the Crunch and Lead channels). V3 and V6 would be Raytheon Black Plates and V4 and V5 would be either Raytheon Gray Plates, Matsushita Slant Getters or GE Short Black Plates.



Ok so I just picked up an RCA 7025 for V1 that claims is measuring 42/45 on the TV-7B/U and 2 NOS Raytheon Grey plates that claim 119 out of 120 for both. I'll put these in V4-5 as you suggest.

Edit:
Just picked up a pair of NOS Raytheon Black Plates for V3 and V6!

Still debating a few Tele's for V2 but haven't found anything solid yet. What should they test at if not NOS?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok i have found a little mystery valve, can anyone help me out here. The getter is unsual, and the micas seem to be totally round with no points on at all. The plates have center holes that go all the way through the plate, its a real mixture and i cant find any pics of anything like it on the internet. HELP!


----------



## dragoneti

Hello everybody!

I need your expert help on a nos telefunken ecc83 i just purchased from a reputable tube store here in greece. Apparently its a Ecc83 smooth plate type 2 (just like in this site Tube Classics ) as far as i can tell but there is no diamond logo on the bottom of the tube. 

Is it a fake? Is it made in another factory for telefunken? Should i return it and buy something else?

Thanks in advance!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

dragoneti said:


> Hello everybody!
> 
> I need your expert help on a nos telefunken ecc83 i just purchased from a reputable tube store here in greece. Apparently its a Ecc83 smooth plate type 2 (just like in this site Tube Classics ) as far as i can tell but there is no diamond logo on the bottom of the tube.
> 
> Is it a fake? Is it made in another factory for telefunken? Should i return it and buy something else?
> 
> Thanks in advance!!



If the print is perfect then it is a fake. If it has a powdery logo and no <> on the bottom, it is an RFT made for Telefunken. Yes they do sound different. If you want a real Telefunken, find one. The RFT is a good tube, but it does not sound like a real Telefunken.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Ok so I just picked up an RCA 7025 for V1 that claims is measuring 42/45 on the TV-7B/U and 2 NOS Raytheon Grey plates that claim 119 out of 120 for both. I'll put these in V4-5 as you suggest.
> 
> Edit:
> Just picked up a pair of NOS Raytheon Black Plates for V3 and V6!
> 
> Still debating a few Tele's for V2 but haven't found anything solid yet. What should they test at if not NOS?



Hey, you are getting there. Sweet. Other alternatives instead of a Tele would be a Mullard or an Amperex. Any Philips tube would do. They made a bunch of different brands, Valvo and MiniWatt are a couple. If you can't get a Tele, get a Philips. The testing on the 7025 is good for a TV-7. The Gray Plates sound like they were tested on an emissions tester. These testers generally inflate the true value of the tube, but with those high readings, I feel that they are good tubes. You're almost there. This will be interesting to hear how this baby sounds. I hope that you will end up liking it.

Now about the Tele testing. It all depends on the tester used. If you see some you like, post the EBAY thread and I will let you know my opinion.


----------



## dragoneti

Thank you for your answer!!

The print is in good condition but if i rub my finger with slight pressure it wears off... (i tried the same on a select mesa chinese 12ax7 and the logo stays intact)... and no logo on the bottom. So that must make it an RFT?

One other question, i also have a telefunken logo (same lettering which wears) short plate ecc83 without again the diamond at the bottom, is this also an rft?

The store which both came from is pretty reputable in high end audio here in greece and i have no reason to think that they would pass on fake (and by fake mean chinese non nos) tubes as so far has excellent service and brand name.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, it's a touch subject and it depends on how you look at it. The fact is the tube is a Telefunken, but it wasn't made at the Telefunken factory. It was made in East Germany at the RFT factory. So you could say it is a Telefunken, because it was made for Telefunken, or you could say it's not a real Telefunken because it was made by RFT.

Legally, the store that sold you the tubes, sold you Telefunkens. They just happen to be RFT/Telefunkens. If you bring up the missing <> on the bottom of the tubes they are going to have to agree. Only true Telefunkens have the <>.


----------



## dragoneti

Thank you very much for your answer!!

I have no problem with being RFT/telefunkens, the sound is pretty good so far, although i will test them thoroughly tomorrow morning i only played my amp for just 10 min today, I just wanted to "eliminate" the factor of being some fake overpriced copies etc. 

After all, RFT's have a very good reputation as far as tone goes.

One last question, which of the two should be best as V1 on my DSL50? the short plate one or the smooth long plate one?

Thank you again for your answers!!


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, you are getting there. Sweet. Other alternatives instead of a Tele would be a Mullard or an Amperex. Any Philips tube would do. They made a bunch of different brands, Valvo and MiniWatt are a couple. If you can't get a Tele, get a Philips. The testing on the 7025 is good for a TV-7. The Gray Plates sound like they were tested on an emissions tester. These testers generally inflate the true value of the tube, but with those high readings, I feel that they are good tubes. You're almost there. This will be interesting to hear how this baby sounds. I hope that you will end up liking it.
> 
> Now about the Tele testing. It all depends on the tester used. If you see some you like, post the EBAY thread and I will let you know my opinion.



Cool that makes me feel better. Thanks to you guys I feel I'm learning a lot!

Here are a few ones I'm looking at:

Telefunken 12AX7A/ECC83 (new old stock 1960's) - eBay (item 260538316416 end time Jan-25-10 07:52:36 PST)

TELEFUNKEN GERMANY 12AX7 ECC83 TUBE BIN - eBay (item 110480977990 end time Feb-12-10 10:05:01 PST)

NOS Telefunken ECC83 12AX7 Smooth plate audio tube - eBay (item 160395294784 end time Feb-14-10 05:26:35 PST)

This last one is what I'm thinking about for the power tubes. This company is here in the states and LOT cheaper than buying from TAD online in Germany.
6L6GC STR TAD Cryo Treated Matched Quad - eBay (item 380182632523 end time Jan-27-10 07:58:54 PST)

In my post over in the workbench section I mention that I still get crackling and noise that is different than 60 cycle hum or gain (Ocean) noise so I'm lead to believe it's the power tubes that still need replacing. I have those Svetlana's that are in my 4100 that I could try. They seem nice and after some research they seem to be the old St. Petersburg version that is now Winged =C='s but I could be wrong.

I need to pull apart the 6100 and figure out how to bias it before I swap those though.

Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

dragoneti said:


> One last question, which of the two should be best as V1 on my DSL50? the short plate one or the smooth long plate one?
> 
> Thank you again for your answers!!



I would listen to them both, but generally a short plate is going to be the better tube in V1 in a guitar amp. However, if you have the testing for both tubes, I would run the stronger one in V2 and the other one in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Cool that makes me feel better. Thanks to you guys I feel I'm learning a lot!



All of your EBAY listings were coming up as deleted. This has been happening for a few days and I don't know what is doing it. 

Good luck with your tube shopping.


----------



## core

Yeah that's weird. They are still live but I think it's how it's linked here. The link must be getting changed when copying into the forum.

So when searching for Telefunken's what should one look out for? Is there a noticeable difference in <> and the RTF kind?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've got both and I would be happy with either, but the fact is the real Tele's sound better. I think the RFT's sound more like a Mullard. The HiFi geeks prefer the smooth plates, but Joe and I like the rib plate better.


----------



## core

Ah, yeah I'm starting to see the difference now in how they are made and the type of stampings each has. I took and chance and bought a pair of ribbed plate ones that are roughly the same price each as single smooth plates are going for. Can't wait to try them all out now! I will post results as soon as I can


----------



## RiverRatt

Seems like eBay has stopped allowing direct linking to auctions. I'm glad. I hate doing a Google search for tubes and 90% of the hits are to eBay auctions I've already looked at.

Core, the RFTs are great tubes, but the smooth plate Telefunkens are magic. The harmonic content is just unreal compared to other tubes. 

I went shopping today with the family and ended up bringing home a little Epiphone Valve Jr. I was playing with it awhile ago and the distortion sounded really buzzy. Guess what was in it? A Sovtek EL84 and Electro Harmonix 12AX7A. I put in a Philips Electrohome 12AX7 that I got from Marty (at a great price!) and an old EL84 I had lying around. Now it's a great little amp. I'm going to pick up a Weber 8" alnico for it to smooth it out a little more, but it's a great little blues box. Just needed a little old glass to help it along. I've heard people rave about that EH12AX7A. Horrible, buzzy tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've got both and I would be happy with either, but the fact is the real Tele's sound better. I think the RFT's sound more like a Mullard. The HiFi geeks prefer the smooth plates, but Joe and I like the rib plate better.



Call me a hi-fi geek, then. Joe sent me one of his ribbed plates to compare and I really thought my smooth plate was a couple of levels above it. I'm going to cry when/if that tube goes bad.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Call me a hi-fi geek, then. Joe sent me one of his ribbed plates to compare and I really thought my smooth plate was a couple of levels above it. I'm going to cry when/if that tube goes bad.



Either one in V1 is solid in the Marshall. I put a smooth plate in the NT cause it needed that smooth organic character and its paired with a BP. Mission accomplished. I've been using my Bad Monkey on it with some new settings and really have found some sweet spots. The BM adds some smoothness as well and a little goes along way. That amp shows all playing defects hehe. Can't hide behind nothing at all hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

The weird thing is, the difference in the two may just be the difference in my ears and yours. I don't hear high frequencies the way I used to, or much else for that matter.


----------



## ken361

I bought a electro harmonix for the hell of it to see how it sounds and it sounds pretty good in the v2 and v3. Not compressed pretty smooth. Also lost a bid on 2 Raytheon baldwin black plates I have 10 bucks on it and thought it would go much higher and forgot about it the other day and saw it go for 20 bucks on ebay! Nice deal!!


----------



## core

RiverRatt said:


> Core, the RFTs are great tubes, but the smooth plate Telefunkens are magic. The harmonic content is just unreal compared to other tubes.
> 
> I went shopping today with the family and ended up bringing home a little Epiphone Valve Jr. I was playing with it awhile ago and the distortion sounded really buzzy. Guess what was in it? A Sovtek EL84 and Electro Harmonix 12AX7A. I put in a Philips Electrohome 12AX7 that I got from Marty (at a great price!) and an old EL84 I had lying around. Now it's a great little amp. I'm going to pick up a Weber 8" alnico for it to smooth it out a little more, but it's a great little blues box. Just needed a little old glass to help it along. I've heard people rave about that EH12AX7A. Horrible, buzzy tone.



Hmm interesting, if I can find a cheap enough smooth plate maybe I'll give it a try too at some point. Thanks for the input!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I recommend the EH12AX7 in non-critical slots. They are dependable, but not a very good sounding tube. Supposedly a relabeled Sovtek as EH and Sovtek swap spit on several tubes.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> I recommend the EH12AX7 in non-critical slots. They are dependable, but not a very good sounding tube. Supposedly a relabeled Sovtek as EH and Sovtek swap spit on several tubes.



there not the same i checked my old one


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow...I put this over here and it disappeared. I will try again. I had some people giving me grief over my numbers regarding tube failure. I put this up as rebuttal. One of the sad things is that amp manufacturer's "want" cheap, shitty tubes. In the past it was good tubes make good amps. Now it's cheap tubes make a higher profit margin on the amps. They are willing to drop the B+ down around 400VDC to get reliability our of the available tubes. That's fine, but some tubes require a certain B+ to work at peak efficiency. Read on.

Here are some excerpts from Vacuum Tube Valley pertaining to current production tubes and how it affects amp manufacturer's.

TQR: In terms of audio quality, durability, and technical performance, how would you rank the various manufacturers previously described?

VTV: I feel that NONE of the current production is exactly as good as genuine premium NOS tubes from Western Europe or the USA. Part of the sound of a really good tube is caused by ultra-pure cathode materials--something Western Electric, M-OV and other firms strove to use whenever possible, for longevity. The chances are, you will NEVER see that done again. The economics of OEM tube sales won't allow it. The largest buyers of tubes are the big guitar-amp makers; Fender, Marshall, Ampeg, Mesa, Peavey and a few others. They drive the market, and they have collectively made it clear that their primary qualification for a tube for use in a guitar amp is low unit cost. They go around shopping for the cheapest tubes which give tolerable reliability in a guitar amp. Many amp companies design their amps around, say super cheap Chinese 6L6GCs and they work just fine. Cathode purity is not important. As far as VTV's editors can tell, very few guitar amp makers pretest tubes to find the longest-lived version or brand. Another issue is with cleanliness and vacuum hardness. This is easily traded off at the factory, and the end-user often can't tell--until the tube out-gasses and its plate current runs away, destroying the amp!

All the current factories are pumping their tubes down for the shortest time they can get away with. Because guitar amps stress the screen grids of output tubes, one can see this as a problem for reliability. When a screen gets red-hot, any absorbed gas in it will be emitted. Enough of it, and the tube runs away. Again, OEMs are demanding low cost and quick delivery schedules, so the tubes are not pumped for 2 or 3 hours, as the best factories once did routinely. This is less of a problem with power triodes like 300Bs, but those are not used in guitar amps. Preamp tubes aren't much affected by gas, except for its tendency to shorten cathode life.

TQR: Are there specific types (not brands) of tubes that seem to be of generally higher quality and consistency today than others? If so, why?

VTV: All of the existing production has improved dramatically in the past few years, thankfully. This was not due to tortured consciences, this was due to competition for the OEM business. SED, for example, really kicked up some trouble for New Sensor, JJ and the Chinese. As far as we know, SED still has most of the EL34 and 6550 OEM business tied up. New Sensor is a very aggressive competitor, and their products have become very good recently. (please note: New Sensor purchased the Svetlana brand name in the USA from the previous Svetlana marketing firm. The "Svetlana" tubes they market, with the "S" logo, are not made at Svetlana.) We also appreciate that they are willing to make low-production types, such as the 7868, 7027A and 7591A, for the vintage hi-fi and guitar amplifier market. JJ and the various Chinese factories are also improving. The Chinese scene is a real mess--we still can't find a totally honest source of information on which tube is made at which factory. As far as quality of a certain type goes, reliability is the major issue.

Anything that is bought by OEMs in huge numbers is likely to be usable, in MODERN amps. Please note that the screen-grid overheating problem is worse in older amps that run the tube screens at higher voltages. This is a major reason why many guitar amps run only 400v plate supplies; it's not the plate that causes the problem, it's the screen grid--which is always run at the full plate voltage in guitar amps. Audiophile tube amps are mostly triode nowadays, but even they are running lower voltages today--even if they don't have to. More than that, I don't dare say. A few major tube dealers in the US and England are some for the most aggressive businessmen we've ever seen. Because tubes are easy to relabel, government oversight has vanished, and consumers are ignorant, the pirates are having the time of their lives right now.

TQR: Do any of these manufacturers do a decent job of screening their own products prior to shipping? We know of tube retailers who screen and match tubes, but not manufacturers.

VTV: As I said, the low-cost OEM market drives manufacturing. Svetlana does their own factory matching of output tubes, which has caused JJ to follow suit (just recently). New Sensor has spent a lot of money recently on two huge power tube matching machines. Magic Parts, in Petaluma, CA does a great job on power tube matching and screening of certain small signal tubes. I doubt if their factories are performing any extra testing. In most cases we have noted that small signal tubes such as 12AX7s, 12AT7s, etc. are not routinely tested for noise or microphonics by manufacturers. With some modern 12AX7s, we have noted up to a 70% reject rate because of excessive noise and/or microphonics.

Additional resources: Groove Tube Reject Rates

***Preamp Tubes***

Please note that the tests on tubes was done on raw factory samples. Some tube vendors test and/or select or grade, and some do not. Many rely on the end user’s reluctance to return a single tube such as a preamp tube for problems, so they just send their tubes out with no testing or minimal testing.

A preamp tube that is not microphonic when first installed, can become microphonic in short order after a few heat up and cool down cycles with expansion and contraction. This is one reason to know and trust your vendor.

Some companies such as Groove Tubes have a very long warranty on tubes, in the case of preamp tubes, six months. Some reasons for the cost of GT premium tubes are due to the labor intensive testing process (each tube, one at a time, in place in high gain amps and tested for various attributes), and their cost for the tubes initially when buying from the major tube factories. In many cases, the GT reject rate is in excess of 60%. The data below, are for the raw factory samples, not GT tested examples. This is the way they come from the factory, and the sort of performance you can expect if your vendor does not test for gain, output, noise and microphonics. In the case of power tubes, gas leakage, grid leakage, and low vacuum are also test parameters that require expensive and complex test equipment which very few vendors have in house.

Note: I'm not a big fan of JJ or Groove Tubes. However, there have been several people asking whether all of the testing is done at the factory level, the vendor level, or both. My research has shown that the factories have been skimping on testing until "pressed" into doing so. If you go to Euro Tubes you would get the impression that a JJ tube has never failed and it sounds better than anything else. Well, I guess that is what is going to happen when you only sell one line. Bob doesn't say how many tubes are rejected during his "in house" testing.

Another thing that I have stated has found its way into amp design. This involves lower plate voltage. All the amp manufacturer's have dropped their amps B+ to 400VDC or less. So here is a situation where cheap, unreliable tubes have changed the designs of dozens of amps. Even though they tests the power tubes at 400VDC they still have massive failures.

There are other articles, but I don't want to make a novel out of this. My point that I stand behind is that current production tubes, although better now than say five years ago, are still problematic and "still have a very high failure rate." I have said that competition has made for "slightly" better tubes. The fact is, why improve a product if you already have a willing market (see Guitar Amp Manufacturer's)?

There are many articles that involve the quality of the raw materials used and the "clean process" techniques that are not followed by the current manufactures. Even so, I will say there are a handful of decent CP tubes that are being made and I openly recommend them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, let's see if we can hit "Page 100" today. I did my part with the long article. You guys can list your shoe sizes or something like that.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Ok i have found a little mystery valve, can anyone help me out here. The getter is unsual, and the micas seem to be totally round with no points on at all. The plates have center holes that go all the way through the plate, its a real mixture and i cant find any pics of anything like it on the internet. HELP!



Spirit, I don't know. The plates look a lot like Philips parts, but the getter looks Chinese or maybe Tesla. Can you get a better shot of the getter and the top of the tube? The logo is cool looking. I'll keep a look out for something similar. Are these yours are were you thinking about buying them?


----------



## RiverRatt

I made a comment last night and apparently it got lost. I've been rolling PI tubes for lack of anything better to do. Has anyone tried using an Ei ECC83? This tube really seems suited for the task. My amp seems a lot more open and dynamic with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

My 1999 DSL401 came with all Ei tubes (Ei Elites). That was the best sounding stock amp I had ever heard and that's why I bought it. I think any Ei tube from 2000 on back is solid. The last runs were done with no QC and that's why they have so many bad tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Spirit-I looked in all of my valve files and couldn't find a thing on these tubes. What are all of the numbers? Also, look real close around the base of the tube for microscopic print in a very light ink. And what does the logo look like to you?


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is some good info for you Matsushita lovers.

Amperex tubes were originally produced in Holland (The Netherlands) and are very high quality tubes. Many prefer these to the Telefunken and are probably the second most sought after brand of 12AX7. There are many versions of this tube. The earliest versions from the 1950's have a "treble clef" logo or just the name Amperex (looks like the lettering above).. 1960's versions have the famous "Bugle Boy" logo. 1970's versions have the "World" logo in orange printing. All sound very good and will last a long time. Be careful of the orange printed ones. Some of them say "Made in Holland" and in fact are Japanese. The easiest way to tell the difference is to look at the side of the plate in the center. There will be a half circular hole on one side of the plate and not on the other if the tube was made in Holland. If there two holes forming a complete circle, then the tube was made by Matsushita Japan. The Japanese made tubes will also have a dark colored getter. Actually, the Japanese made tubes are nice tubes, too as the Matsushita plant was set up by Mullard. They just aren't Amperex Holland. Amperex tubes made in Holland have a curious characteristic. When the filament is first energized, it flashes very bright for a second and then dulls down to the normal soft orange glow. Other tubes do this as well such as Mullard, Matsushita and Ei Yugosolvia.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I figure that if three more people post, we can get this thread on page 100.

Anyone out there with an interesting tube story to tell? Any organs found by forum members? Did Joe ever get his amp back yet? There has to be something that you can post about.

Here's one for you. A 12AX7 has nine pins. You know why it doesn't have ten?

It wouldn't fit in the socket.


----------



## solarburn

I may have to try some EI tubes. I never have and from the sounds of it they are good...


----------



## solarburn

No amp yet. Maybe by the end of the week.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I may have to try some EI tubes. I never have and from the sounds of it they are good...



To me, they sound similar to a real Tele with more aggressive mids. They are a very musical tube, but like Marty said they had some bad ones. They can be noisy and microphonic. My Marshall had two of them in it when I bought it, and they sound really nice. You can still find them in the $20 range, I think. 

I need to pick up a few more, too. I may have to sell some of my Japanese stock. I'd like to have a few more Ei and definitely some Raytheons. 

My Blackheart has a single Ei ECC83 in it and it thinks it's an AC15. I've been getting into my smaller amps lately. I had the DSL, the Blackheart Little Giant and the Epi Valve Jr. all going at once this afternoon. It was a wicked tone.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> To me, they sound similar to a real Tele with more aggressive mids. They are a very musical tube, but like Marty said they had some bad ones. They can be noisy and microphonic. My Marshall had two of them in it when I bought it, and they sound really nice. You can still find them in the $20 range, I think.
> 
> I need to pick up a few more, too. I may have to sell some of my Japanese stock. I'd like to have a few more Ei and definitely some Raytheons.
> 
> My Blackheart has a single Ei ECC83 in it and it thinks it's an AC15. I've been getting into my smaller amps lately. I had the DSL, the Blackheart Little Giant and the Epi Valve Jr. all going at once this afternoon. It was a wicked tone.




I bet that was awesome hehe.


----------



## el zilcho

MartyStrat54 said:


> My 1999 DSL401 came with all Ei tubes (Ei Elites). That was the best sounding stock amp I had ever heard and that's why I bought it. I think any Ei tube from 2000 on back is solid. The last runs were done with no QC and that's why they have some many bad tubes.



My 2000 DSL100 came with Ei tubes in V3 and V4 and unlabled Chinese tubes in V1 and V2. The Chinese tubes went microphonic after about 2 years. I still have the original Ei's in a drawer, and they're still good!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Spirit, I don't know. The plates look a lot like Philips parts, but the getter looks Chinese or maybe Tesla. Can you get a better shot of the getter and the top of the tube? The logo is cool looking. I'll keep a look out for something similar. Are these yours are were you thinking about buying them?



Its an ebay auction and thats the only picture, they are going for about £10 at the moment, i was wondering fo they were worth it.


----------



## Landshark

So I opened up the back of my Vox today because I was interested to see what brand of tubes were used in the amp. I was kinda ticked when I saw Ruby tubes in it. Any ideas Marty on where to start with rolling new tubes in this head?


----------



## guitarmartin416

So I'm runnin in the BBRI V1 Tele smooth, V2 RCA Black Plate
and in my Bandmaster V1 Mullard, V2 Sylvania

what a nice colaboration between both amps! 

Gonna try some new power tubes for both this week.... but thats a whole nother thread!

p.s. hope this takes us to page 100!!!!!!!


----------



## solarburn

guitarmartin416 said:


> So I'm runnin in the BBRI V1 Tele smooth, V2 RCA Black Plate
> and in my Bandmaster V1 Mullard, V2 Sylvania
> 
> what a nice colaboration between both amps!
> 
> Gonna try some new power tubes for both this week.... but thats a whole nother thread!
> 
> p.s. hope this takes us to page 100!!!!!!!



Really like that combo you have in the JTM45 too. Works nicely in 2 of my amps.

How you like your JTM45? What did the mod/s do for it?


----------



## solarburn

Marty those tubes should be there tomorrow for the Twister.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I made a comment last night and apparently it got lost. I've been rolling PI tubes for lack of anything better to do. Has anyone tried using an Ei ECC83? This tube really seems suited for the task. My amp seems a lot more open and dynamic with it.



try the lps yet?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I'm still tube hunting on the bay, looking for Telefunkens, looking at some Sylvania BP El84s...I have 3 EIs, 3 Baldwin yellow-labeled Raytheon BPs, 4 Brimars, 4 Sylvania 6CA7/EL34s for my SL100 (currently has the RFTs in it), an extra quad of Saratov EL84s for the Rocket, which also has a Brimar in V1, a Hamburg Valvo in V2, and an Amperex in V3.


----------



## guitarmartin416

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Really like that combo you have in the JTM45 too. Works nicely in 2 of my amps.
> 
> How you like your JTM45? What did the mod/s do for it?




still very torn on what to do with the power tubes....alot of mods to do what I want, and I'm out of work in the winter!  But I'm gettin there


----------



## solarburn

guitarmartin416 said:


> still very torn on what to do with the power tubes....alot of mods to do what I want, and I'm out of work in the winter!  But I'm gettin there



What power tubes are you considering and for which amp?

Whoo hoo!

Turned the page.


----------



## guitarmartin416

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What power tubes are you considering and for which amp?
> 
> Whoo hoo!
> 
> Turned the page.



I wanted to do the KT66 in the BB but the cab is too shallow, so I was gonna do el34's for the traditional Marshall sound, but Jon says I'll have to change the OT and a bunch of other shit! I just don't have the cash. I'll probably stick with the 6l6's in the Fender...not broke don't fix..

now if I could take the amp out of my leslie (tungsol 6550's ) j/k the B3 wouldn't sound the same without it!


----------



## guitarmartin416

guitarmartin416 said:


> I wanted to do the KT66 in the BB but the cab is too shallow, so I was gonna do el34's for the traditional Marshall sound, but Jon says I'll have to change the OT and a bunch of other shit! I just don't have the cash. I'll probably stick with the 6l6's in the Fender...not broke don't fix..
> 
> now if I could take the amp out of my leslie (tungsol 6550's ) j/k the B3 wouldn't sound the same without it!





YAY!!!!!! WE MADE PG 100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> try the lps yet?



The Sovtek LPS? I'm sure I have at one time or another. I have a few lying around that I've pulled from new amps, but I don't really care for them.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The Sovtek LPS? I'm sure I have at one time or another. I have a few lying around that I've pulled from new amps, but I don't really care for them.



Great PI tube IMO. A little hairy in V1 but not disgusting like the other Sovtec 12AX7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Isn't it amazing how many posts it takes to move that blue bar and inch?

Joe...no mail on Monday. It's a holiday.

Ratt, I was told that the Blackheart would walk all over the Epi Jr. I've played the Blackheart, but not the Epiphone.

Yes, if you are looking for Ei's, try to stay away from the later years. You should be safe with year 2000 on down.

I still think it's a major Marshall rip-off when you buy a Bluesbreaker and it doesn't come with KT66's in it and you can't put KT66's in it. What the fuck is up with that? A BB's sound was based on KT66's. Granted, they're the British version of a 6L6, but they are designed different and sound different. Just like an NOS EL34 versus an NOS 6CA7. Same tube electrically, but they both sound different.

PAGE 100-Damn that sounds good!!! Thanks guys. If this was a whorehouse, business would be good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If a forum member by the name of Hollowbody drops in, please welcome and/or assist him. He is interested in American NOS tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ratt, I was told that the Blackheart would walk all over the Epi Jr. I've played the Blackheart, but not the Epiphone.



They are different beasts. The Blackheart is a sweet little amp and has more headroom than you'd think for a 5 watt. The Epi was just an impulse buy. I think it could be made into a much better amp with just a little tweaking. Replacing the tubes went a long way toward getting rid of the buzzy overdrive. Also, there's an easy-to-fix grounding issue on the circuit board and a lot of people install a bridge rectifier to change the heaters over to DC to smooth out the tone even more. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Alan. You know when you edit a post and it says in that little window, "Last edited by..?" Did you ever notice that the color and the size of the text is almost a dead ringer for the ink color and print size used on MIJ tubes? It's also similar to some old Raytheons. It's the same color above your Avatar and also to links on the bottom of the page and to your homepage.
> 
> Just a colorful fact. Sort of a "skin" color. Like the color of Joe's arse.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I sold tubes for an Epi Jr to a young guy and he had links to over eight mods that could be done on the amp.

When they have a mod that adds, "BASS, MID and TREBLE" to the front panel and three more EL84's, I'll buy one.

(Just kidding...I hear it is a nice little amp.)


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I sold tubes for an Epi Jr to a young guy and he had links to over eight mods that could be done on the amp.
> 
> When they have a mod that adds, "BASS, MID and TREBLE" to the front panel and three more EL84's, I'll buy one.
> 
> (Just kidding...I hear it is a nice little amp.)


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I had a little store credit at a friend's shop, and didn't really need anything. It was either a box of strings or a new (used) amp.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Off topic, I have a few goodies for sale in the classified and I don't know if you guys check there...3 guitars and an amp that has tubes in it 
Mods: it's ok to remove this post if necessary...just trying to de-GAS


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't think that the mod's will move your post. If you did it all of the time they might, but once in a while is no big deal.

Well, you were gassing hard for a long time. Sometimes you have to let out a little gas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow. I've been doing a little surfing and took a look at New Sensor's Home Page. I thought it was strange that they were promoting JJ tubes. I mean JJ is one of their main competitors. However, I wasn't expecting to see them listed as TESLA/JJ's. What's up with that.

NewSensor:roduct Listing


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe...no mail on Monday. It's a holiday.



I meant Tuesday when I said "tomorrow" cause I wrote that this morning hehe.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow. I've been doing a little surfing and took a look at New Sensor's Home Page. I thought it was strange that they were promoting JJ tubes. I mean JJ is one of their main competitors. However, I wasn't expecting to see them listed as TESLA/JJ's. What's up with that.
> 
> NewSensor:roduct Listing



Putting the 2 together as if...

The Tesla name just makes JJ that much better I guess...


----------



## Stymie13

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow. I've been doing a little surfing and took a look at New Sensor's Home Page. I thought it was strange that they were promoting JJ tubes. I mean JJ is one of their main competitors. However, I wasn't expecting to see them listed as TESLA/JJ's. What's up with that.
> 
> NewSensor:roduct Listing



...and why are they're prices so outrageous?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

MartyStrat54 said:


> I don't think that the mod's will move your post. If you did it all of the time they might, but once in a while is no big deal.
> 
> Well, you were gassing hard for a long time. Sometimes you have to let out a little gas.


Nothing like some Maalox to help relieve the pressure and bloating

Marty,
For the SL 100, I was thinking 
1)Brimar in V1, Raytheon BP in V2, and EI in V3
2) Brimar in V1, EI in V2, and Raytheon in V3
Which do you feel is a better choice, or if you think something all together different.
I keep watching those Telefunken auctions...lots of dough


----------



## RiverRatt

I came so close to a big score this afternoon. I was driving home from work and passed a house where they had a lot of old junk out for trash pickup. One of the items was an old console stereo. Said "High Fidelity" on the outside, it was the real deal. I asked a guy out in the yard if he minded if I took it. Naw, he didn't mind, so I crammed this thing in the back seat of my Maxima and took off. I got it home and ripped the back off it to start harvesting tubes. Someone with a pair of wire cutters had been there before me. The entire tuner and amplifier had already been removed. The only thing left were a couple of moth-eaten speakers and the turntable assembly.


----------



## core

Been seeing a couple Marshall's lately with original Tesla tubes. All this talk about them, are they the "Holy Grail" of tubes? Does anyone know when they came stock on Marshall's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Been seeing a couple Marshall's lately with original Tesla tubes. All this talk about them, are they the "Holy Grail" of tubes? Does anyone know when they came stock on Marshall's?



Tesla is not the Holy Grail, but the original's are up there in the top 15. The older a Tesla, the better. The Tesla EL34's are probably the most desirable.

Marshall used Tesla in "some" of their amps during the 80's. After about 1986, Marshall struggled once again with finding reliable tubes for their amps. They finally settled with Ei and used them up until 2001 for both power and preamps. They were able to keep the DSL401's going with Ei EL84's and ECC83's until 2004. Some older Marshall's from the early 80's have the nipple tip EL34's in them.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tesla is not the Holy Grail, but the original's are up there in the top 15. The older a Tesla, the better. The Tesla EL34's are probably the most desirable.
> 
> Marshall used Tesla in "some" of their amps during the 80's. After about 1986, Marshall struggled once again with finding reliable tubes for their amps. They finally settled with Ei and used them up until 2001 for both power and preamps. They were able to keep the DSL401's going with Ei EL84's and ECC83's until 2004. Some older Marshall's from the early 80's have the nipple tip EL34's in them.




what kind of tubes does Marshall currently put in its new amps? Power and Pre Amp?


----------



## Landshark

LPMarshall hack said:


> what kind of tubes does Marshall currently put in its new amps? Power and Pre Amp?



I know for a few years they went to JJs... my 2006 TSL had Marshall labeled JJs in them. Whatever is cheapest for them though... don't really know. Could be Ruby at this point.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LPMarshall hack said:


> what kind of tubes does Marshall currently put in its new amps? Power and Pre Amp?



Someone can correct me, but for some time now they have used Svetlana's for power tubes and Sovtek and Shuguang's for preamp tubes. Some amps have all Sovteks, some all Svetlana's and sometimes a mix. Marshall isn't going to stop production over preamp tubes.

For EL84's, Marshall is using JJ's.


----------



## Landshark

Hey Marty, did you see my post on the last page (99) about rolling tubes in my Vox?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Bought a couple of Wurlitzer branded GE blackpplates last night, anyone have any experience with GE blackplates?


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Someone can correct me, but for some time now they have used Svetlana's for power tubes and Sovtek and Shuguang's for preamp tubes. Some amps have all Sovteks, some all Svetlana's and sometimes a mix. Marshall isn't going to stop production over preamp tubes.
> 
> For EL84's, Marshall is using JJ's.



Not sure if they are all original but my 93 4100 has Svetlana power tubes and one Sovtek preamp with two Marshall labeled tubes so who knows maybe they are original. The Marshall's don't have any other markings and the Sovtek in V1 is a 7025 so that might have been changed later on.

Picked up another amp today! An EL34 model JCM900. Been really interested in giving it a shot and comparing to the 6L6's in hopes of being able to settle on one good amp that will do what I need.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Someone can correct me, but for some time now they have used Svetlana's for power tubes and Sovtek and Shuguang's for preamp tubes. Some amps have all Sovteks, some all Svetlana's and sometimes a mix. Marshall isn't going to stop production over preamp tubes.
> 
> For EL84's, Marshall is using JJ's.



my jvm has winged c power tubes and jj and chinese preamp tubes


----------



## guitarmartin416

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Bought a couple of Wurlitzer branded GE blackpplates last night, anyone have any experience with GE blackplates?



I have a few, havn't treid them yet....couldn't get past the mMullard Tele's and RCA?????


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> I have a few, havn't treid them yet....couldn't get past the mMullard Tele's and RCA?????



It was late when i got em, and im following about 12 lots so got confused, they were not black plates, they were just regular grey plate wurlitzer GEs


----------



## LesPaulopolis

I wanted to be the 3,000th post but barely missed it.

Who's selling preamp tubes around MPLS? PM me!


----------



## LPMarshall hack

core said:


> Not sure if they are all original but my 93 4100 has Svetlana power tubes and one Sovtek preamp with two Marshall labeled tubes so who knows maybe they are original. The Marshall's don't have any other markings and the Sovtek in V1 is a 7025 so that might have been changed later on.
> 
> Picked up another amp today! An EL34 model JCM900. Been really interested in giving it a shot and comparing to the 6L6's in hopes of being able to settle on one good amp that will do what I need.





Cool! What model? Hi Gain MKIII or Dual Reverb? I've got a MKIII 50 watt and it sounds great. When I got it, it had Sovtek el34G's in it. Not sure if they were stock. The pre amp tubes just read, "Marshall Ecc83" on them. Sounded good but the tubes started to go so I got some RFT's from Marty. Sounds killer now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The GE Black Plates are pretty good. A notch above some of the regular USA tubes. I have an amp where I use two GE Black Plates in V3 and V4. I have a Raytheon BP in V2 so it is a thick, bluesy sound. Chunky and crunchy in Channel Two.

The Gray Plates are okay tubes. The don't command much attention or price. But if they are cheap, I'll buy them. Three years from now, they may sell for a good price. 

Right now, I put a GE near a Sylvania in Ranking. I think the Raytheon Short Gray Plates are even better, but RCA tubes are probably the best when it comes to USA made Gray Plates. Of course, this applies to tubes made prior to 1967. RCA banked so heavily on the transistor, they were out of tube manufacturing by the late 70's. (GE and Sylvania lasted in one form or another until the late 80's. GE=Ken-Rad and Sylvania=Philips ECG.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> So I opened up the back of my Vox today because I was interested to see what brand of tubes were used in the amp. I was kinda ticked when I saw Ruby tubes in it. Any ideas Marty on where to start with rolling new tubes in this head?



Sorry for the delay. Yes I saw it and needed to verify something about the amp. Then I ended up spacing out.

What I need to know is what your V1 tube part number is? In other words, does it say 5751 or 7025S on it? VOX states the tube line up as follows:

Tube complement: 4 x 12AX7 (V1:Low microphonic) and 4 x EL34B

I'm curious to see if they are using a Chinese Shuguang or TAD 7025 in that slot. The VOX "chime" sound comes from a really quiet tube in V1.

Now it may just be a hand select tube, IDK. If I was retubing it, I would stay with an American 7025 in V1 or at least a 12AX7A or 12AX7WA. V2 you would have to experiment with. I don't know if a Raytheon BP would be the best choice. I'm thinking more like a high gain Tele or Philips tube. Now if you are wanting to revoice the preamp, then yes, use a BP. You can use CP, GE or Sylvania's in V3 and V4. The preamp tubes are set up like a DSL100.

Are the EL34B's Tung-Sol or Shuguang?

(Do you guys see what I mean? Another amp designed around 400VDC tubes. I'll bet the plate voltage on this amp is at or below 400.)

I will say that for the price, this is a pretty nice two channel amp. If it's too pretty sounding for you, stick a Mullard in V1. That will raunch it up some.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> It was late when i got em, and im following about 12 lots so got confused, they were not black plates, they were just regular grey plate wurlitzer GEs



SpiritOfTheAge was our 3000th poster. Congratulations and thanks for being on our thread.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> SpiritOfTheAge was our 3000th poster. Congratulations and thanks for being on our thread.




Its been a pleasure, it truly has, id just like to thank my Mum, Dad and my manager for all thier support during those early pages.


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Nothing like some Maalox to help relieve the pressure and bloating
> 
> Marty,
> For the SL 100, I was thinking
> 1)Brimar in V1, Raytheon BP in V2, and EI in V3
> 2) Brimar in V1, EI in V2, and Raytheon in V3
> Which do you feel is a better choice, or if you think something all together different.
> I keep watching those Telefunken auctions...lots of dough



I answered this, but the server ate some posts recently and this was one of them. As I have stated before, if you do not have a tester, all you can do is trust your ears. It won't take long to roll those tubes. A Raytheon BP isn't necessarily a "lock" for V2 every time. I would try the Ei in their as well and see how they compare. The Brimar should be a good one for V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Its been a pleasure, it truly has, id just like to thank my Mum, Dad and my manager for all thier support during those early pages.



Great response!


----------



## core

LPMarshall hack said:


> Cool! What model? Hi Gain MKIII or Dual Reverb? I've got a MKIII 50 watt and it sounds great. When I got it, it had Sovtek el34G's in it. Not sure if they were stock. The pre amp tubes just read, "Marshall Ecc83" on them. Sounded good but the tubes started to go so I got some RFT's from Marty. Sounds killer now.



4100 Dual Reverb from around 91.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry for the delay. Yes I saw it and needed to verify something about the amp. Then I ended up spacing out.
> 
> What I need to know is what your V1 tube part number is? In other words, does it say 5751 or 7025S on it? VOX states the tube line up as follows:
> 
> Tube complement: 4 x 12AX7 (V1:Low microphonic) and 4 x EL34B
> 
> I'm curious to see if they are using a Chinese Shuguang or TAD 7025 in that slot. The VOX "chime" sound comes from a really quiet tube in V1.
> 
> Now it may just be a hand select tube, IDK. If I was retubing it, I would stay with an American 7025 in V1 or at least a 12AX7A or 12AX7WA. V2 you would have to experiment with. I don't know if a Raytheon BP would be the best choice. I'm thinking more like a high gain Tele or Philips tube. Now if you are wanting to revoice the preamp, then yes, use a BP. You can use CP, GE or Sylvania's in V3 and V4. The preamp tubes are set up like a DSL100.
> 
> Are the EL34B's Tung-Sol or Shuguang?
> 
> (Do you guys see what I mean? Another amp designed around 400VDC tubes. I'll bet the plate voltage on this amp is at or below 400.)
> 
> I will say that for the price, this is a pretty nice two channel amp. If it's too pretty sounding for you, stick a Mullard in V1. That will raunch it up some.



Ok I rechecked again and I think I may have been confused as to what you wanted me to look for... So if this is not helpfull to us then sorry. The plate voltage is, according to the amp, 400 VDC as you had bet. The pre amp tubes are actually not Ruby, they have in white print on the tube "tung sol 12ax7 made in Russia." The power tubes are Ruby EL34BSTR.



MartyStrat54 said:


> What I need to know is what your V1 tube part number is? In other words, does it say 5751 or 7025S on it?



This is where I got lost because I saw no numbers like this on the tubes, the plates... I even took the chassis out and looked at the bottom of the preamp tube sockets to see if I was just missing something.

On a side note, in looking inside the chassis it was really nice to see PTP wiring for the most part in the guts of the amp.


----------



## core

Got the RCA 7025 today and I have to say it sounds best in the 4100 actually. Really helped it all around. In the 6100 I think it made the clean channel a little harsh but I'll have to play around with it more.

Just wanted to give a quick assessment, can't wait to get those other tubes in!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Right i need some help on this one please gentlemen, its labelled as a mazda, but i think its made by someone else, so who made it? Looks like philips plates but no seams on the top, very flat top to the valve and has Made in England BVA on it, apart from that i can see no other markings on the valve.

Pics






;




;


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Right i need some help on this one please gentlemen, its labelled as a mazda, but i think its made by someone else, so who made it? Looks like philips plates but no seams on the top, very flat top to the valve and has Made in England BVA on it, apart from that i can see no other markings on the valve.
> 
> Pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ;



Hey spirit!

iv got one of those in my 800 in V1.

Looks just like a Brimar to me. great sounding Valve!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Hey spirit!
> 
> iv got one of those in my 800 in V1.
> 
> Looks just like a Brimar to me. great sounding Valve!



I thougth that, but! i have 2 actual brimars and 1 made by philips with a blackburn code on it, the blackburn one looks like the one above except it has seams on the top and factory codes and a more domed top to it. The brimars i have dont have the round holes either side of the plate, and have totally different codes on them, so im not so sure about this one. Can we take it was made in england? and if so must be a brimar or philips of some kind? Its not going for cheap cheap, in fact its a bit over what im willing to play for a valve, but if it turns out to be something special then i may have a bid on it.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I thougth that, but! i have 2 actual brimars and 1 made by philips with a blackburn code on it, the blackburn one looks like the one above except it has seams on the top and factory codes and a more domed top to it. The brimars i have dont have the round holes either side of the plate, and have totally different codes on them, so im not so sure about this one. Can we take it was made in england? and if so must be a brimar or philips of some kind? Its not going for cheap cheap, in fact its a bit over what im willing to play for a valve, but if it turns out to be something special then i may have a bid on it.



well like i said its a decent valve.

I was gutted i was watching one brimar and one RFT on ebay for 6 days. I forgot about them and they went for £10.50!!! boxed aswell NOS!!!!!

i was kicking myself!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> well like i said its a decent valve.
> 
> I was gutted i was watching one brimar and one RFT on ebay for 6 days. I forgot about them and they went for £10.50!!! boxed aswell NOS!!!!!
> 
> i was kicking myself!!!



I reckon we watch a lot of the same auctions!  I dont like it when the are in the USA and finish at 3 in the morning so i have to put my best price on and hope someone doesnt sneak it by 50 cents, which happens a lot!

heres a pic of my one of the brimars i have, notice the copper posts and the lack of round holes in the plate.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I reckon we watch a lot of the same auctions!  I dont like it when the are in the USA and finish at 3 in the morning so i have to put my best price on and hope someone doesnt sneak it by 50 cents, which happens a lot!
> 
> heres a pic of my one of the brimars i have, notice the copper posts and the lack of round holes in the plate.



haha yeah i was thinking the same!!!

Im in need of some because 3 have failed .

Yeah the phillips made valves seems to have the copper posts. But im not 100% sure if only the phillips made ones have it.

Amperex valves and mullard have them aswell


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Alan, look at this Brimar. It has the single, bent tabs on the plate like those Italian tubes. Do all Brimar's just have a single crimping? I never noticed that before.

...and I thought it was difficult to determine where some American tubes were made. 

I haven't looked this up yet, but was Mazda even a member of the BVA?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> haha yeah i was thinking the same!!!
> 
> Im in need of some because 3 have failed .
> 
> Yeah the phillips made valves seems to have the copper posts. But im not 100% sure if only the phillips made ones have it.
> 
> Amperex valves and mullard have them aswell




Sorry mate, thats not the philips made one , thats the brimar made brimar, the philips one looks like all the other philips valves.


@marty, Mazda was french wasnt it, so i dont think it would have been part of BVA, thats why im thinking its been labelled for them by maybe a philips production plant?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> Ok I rechecked again and I think I may have been confused as to what you wanted me to look for... So if this is not helpfull to us then sorry. The plate voltage is, according to the amp, 400 VDC as you had bet. The pre amp tubes are actually not Ruby, they have in white print on the tube "tung sol 12ax7 made in Russia." The power tubes are Ruby EL34BSTR.
> 
> This is where I got lost because I saw no numbers like this on the tubes, the plates... I even took the chassis out and looked at the bottom of the preamp tube sockets to see if I was just missing something.
> 
> On a side note, in looking inside the chassis it was really nice to see PTP wiring for the most part in the guts of the amp.



If all the preamp tubes look the same and say Tung-Sol on them, that's what they are. Do they all have short plates? The Tung-Sol is actually one of the better CP preamp tubes. The Ruby EL34BSTR is made by Shuguang in China. Joe likes these tubes in his DSL50.

Yeah, I figured that amp would be wired more old school. It looks like a really nice head for the price. Just curious, where is it actually made?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just a quick look. Mazda joined the BVA before WWII. Apparently, all the members of the BVA were "distressed" over American technology that flooded the British and French tube makers. Mazda actually tried to go backwards after the war with several of their own designs. No one followed them and it ended in an early demise for Mazda.

Quote:

The British domestic radio industry was converted to war production during WW2 and, much to BVA's distress, the floodgates were opened to the import of American technology and equipment. Immediately after the war Mazda tried to turn the clock back to the 1930s and re-build a distinctive British domestic market in which Americanism would find no toe-hold. All other BVA members accepted the inevitable and set about making valves of essentially American design, supplying characteristically British types (if at all) for replacement purposes only. The Pen25 is one of Mazda's post-war anachronisms. Not only was it obsolete in concept, since it was oversized compared to the B7G types by then available for all-dry portables and there was little market for new 2V battery 'household' radios, but it was fitted with the new Mazda Octal base which made it incompatible with anything else, including the American International Octal which everyone else was using. This was the beginning of a slow decline in the fortunes of the one-time British market leader.

"Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Viva la France!"


----------



## RiverRatt

What little I know of Mazda is confusing. Yes, they had a factory in Great Britain that dates at least back to the 1930s. There is also a Mazda plant in Bruxelles that is the source of the Philips-Mazda tubes (i.e. the good ones with the silver plates). This is the Mazda plant listed in the Philips book. I'll research the Great Britain factory when I have more time - work is kicking my ass right now. When I saw the picture of the Mazda, I thought 1960s Brimar.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nevermind, looks like you already did the research.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well i just dug out the brimars and the Philips i have sitting in my spares tin, and i noticed that all the philips valves have the crimps on the inside of the plates, where as that mazda has the crimps folded onto the outside. 

from left to right Miniwatt, Philips (harleen), 3 Bel (with E05 code) and Blackburn coded no name (only has 2 seams on the top)





Also here are the brimars,the 2 that i think are actual brimars, and the balckburn maded philips one.






ps if you are sick of me posting this stuff, just tell me to shut up!

Just looked through Tubemonger library and found what i think is a match, and you were right guys it looks like a brimar from the 60s

http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/v/12AX7/Brimar+ECC83+1960s+Short+Plate+Incorrectly+Marked+Foreign+-+England.jpg.html


----------



## LPMarshall hack

Quick question...should pre amp tubes always be covered with the RF shield? I notice some amps cover them, while others don't. Any pros or cons?


----------



## MartyStrat54

LPMarshall hack said:


> Quick question...should pre amp tubes always be covered with the RF shield? I notice some amps cover them, while others don't. Any pros or cons?



The better amps cover all of the preamp tubes, will the general rule is to cover V1. V1 is the tube most susceptible to RF interference, such a short-wave (HAM) radios and CB's (Citizen Band). 

A well made amp can work without a cover on V1, but it is a good idea to have one.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> The better amps cover all of the preamp tubes, will the general rule is to cover V1. V1 is the tube most susceptible to RF interference, such a short-wave (HAM) radios and CB's (Citizen Band).
> 
> A well made amp can work without a cover on V1, but it is a good idea to have one.




I assume you can buy them? There is a JMP for sale locally that I wanna get, but there are no RF shields on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LPMarshall hack said:


> I assume you can buy them? There is a JMP for sale locally that I wanna get, but there are no RF shields on them.



If you get the amp take a moment to look at the socket. Some of the older amps use different type sockets. A popular older style that is still in use is a high shoulder base that accepts a twist on style can (shield). All the different type shields can be obtained from:

Antique Electronic Supply


----------



## LPMarshall hack

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you get the amp take a moment to look at the socket. Some of the older amps use different type sockets. A popular older style that is still in use is a high shoulder base that accepts a twist on style can (shield). All the different type shields can be obtained from:
> 
> Antique Electronic Supply




Thanks...


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> If all the preamp tubes look the same and say Tung-Sol on them, that's what they are. Do they all have short plates? The Tung-Sol is actually one of the better CP preamp tubes. The Ruby EL34BSTR is made by Shuguang in China. Joe likes these tubes in his DSL50.
> 
> Yeah, I figured that amp would be wired more old school. It looks like a really nice head for the price. Just curious, where is it actually made?



Yea they are all short plates... I was thinking I had seen on here a time or two that they were decent preamp tubes. I actually though about leaving them in V3 and V4 when I get some more cash rounded up and put a couple good ones in V1 and V2. I'm also thinking about louading the remaining Tung Sols in V3 and V4 of the TSL when I get the money for some beasty NOS tubes for its V1 and V2. Those JJs are starting to get on my nerves with how much darker they are... When I get my cash ready I think a good mullard in V1 will be my best bet for the Vox. She can be a little too pretty at times, although I really love how pretty that clean channel is.

I believe it said 'Made in China'... which is kinda a bummer that such a nice amp wasn't made in good old England, but that explains the buy it new price of $599.99. I probably wont ever part with it though.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> The better amps cover all of the preamp tubes, will the general rule is to cover V1. V1 is the tube most susceptible to RF interference, such a short-wave (HAM) radios and CB's (Citizen Band).
> 
> A well made amp can work without a cover on V1, but it is a good idea to have one.



HAHA! the Vox doesn't have a cover shield on V1.


----------



## ken361

miss out on a rca last night went for 9 bucks! and a tungsol for a 11, I think


----------



## RiverRatt

Time for today's episode of "What the hell is it?"

I thought I knew what these two tubes were at a glance:






Then on the back there's this:






"Japan Westinghouse" with smooth plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's leaving us hanging. Where did you see them? On PEEBay? I like the marketing philosophy with those tubes. 12AX7 in massive font. On the other side is the ink color that makes RATT ??? question my sanity is: Made In Japan. Although I will say it is in a lot larger font size than most. Some are like this on a tube. Made in Japan...asshole.

So yeah, I would like to know where you saw them. I'm assuming they are Matsushita's. Wouldn't you like to get some NEC's to try out?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mister Ratt-Your 1967 Russian military, 5000+ hour EL84 has been mailed to you. You should receive it shortly. It is yours to keep. When it shows up, make sure the wife knows it's a freebie and tell her, "See...not all of the tubes cost money."


----------



## RiverRatt

I should have you on hand for those other hard-to-explain moments. Thanks much! 

I bought those tubes off eBay today. BIN $15. Anything that weird, I have to own it. I'm thinking they are Ei tubes. AFAIK Matsushita never made anything with a smooth plate, but it would be nice if they are Matsushita. Ultra-rare, only 3 ever made, and I'll have 2 of them. I'll keep them for a year or two and sell them for $110 (like the guy on eBay right now with the two Matsushitas for $110).


----------



## Landshark

Well I went to H&R BLock today and now have a preloaded card with some sweet cash on it!:Ohno: Time for some pre amp tubes! I'd like to buy the recommended V1 and V2 tubes for my TSL and Vox. I'm ready to make it sound GOOD!


----------



## core

Well I got the Raytheon Grey Plates and the Telefunken in today. Added in with the RCA 7025 in the 6100 it is definitely an improvement! Seems a lot smoother. Tell me, they don't glow near as bright as the OG Marshall pre amp tubes is this normal for these?

As soon as I can get the static and crackle issue solved this will be a killer amp. I will upload pics once I can take some.


----------



## guitarmartin416

So...just for shits and giggles, I took an old 1964 Sears amp I had layin around. I loaded it with all Telefunken pre tubes.........wow, just wow!



now if only it were 30watts louder!!!!!!!


----------



## CKCinMass

How do the Brimar Preamp valves rank with you folks?

I found 3 of them in my Old Sound City 50 Plus (I'm doubtful that they will be in it when I sell it - they'll probably wind up in my 2204).


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I found a YouTube video on audiotubes.com with some good tube porn (I want a Mazda!). It has some very interesting Telefunkens in it. Watch when he starts talking about "Selected" Telefunken smooth plates, especially the one with the blue tip. You can see that it's a smooth plate, has the diamond in the bottom, and has seams on the top. Telefunken is listed in the factory codes in the Philips Factory Code book, but I've never seen a Telefunken that had the characteristic Philips pinched top seams until this video.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6d-cZB7DgA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6d-cZB7DgA[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarmartin416 said:


> So...just for shits and giggles, I took an old 1964 Sears amp I had layin around. I loaded it with all Telefunken pre tubes.........wow, just wow!
> 
> 
> 
> now if only it were 30watts louder!!!!!!!



Hook it up to a 412 cab with four Man 'O Wars and it will sound 30 watts louder.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think most of the Tele's that I sold Joe were the "Select" versions. I guess that's why he bought so many. Some still had the paper on them. Another select tube had a yellow tip on it. You will find this on Telefunken's and other Philips tubes.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hook it up to a 412 cab with four Man 'O Wars and it will sound 30 watts louder.



good point....maybe I'll try that!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think most of the Tele's that I sold Joe were the "Select" versions. I guess that's why he bought so many. Some still had the paper on them. Another select tube had a yellow tip on it. You will find this on Telefunken's and other Philips tubes.



Did any of yours have a pinched top? I've never seen that on a Tele before.


----------



## ken361

marty sent you a pm on a taiwan raytheon


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> marty sent you a pm on a taiwan raytheon



Yeah, I replied back. It was a shocker to me. I saw the tube and knew right away that it was Japanese made. The seller made me laugh. The winner of this auction obtains one Raytheon 12AX7 made in Taiwan.

How many tubes you ever seen made in Taiwan? One of the few things they did not make and I wonder why. If the tube actually says, "Made In Taiwan" I'll give you $30 for it just to have it as one of my "odd ball" tubes. However, I have never heard of Taiwanese tubes.

Just for you Ratt:

Raytheon 12AX7A 12AX7 Amp Radio Reciever Vacuum Tube - eBay (item 160396943143 end time Jan-30-10 08:42:50 PST)


----------



## RiverRatt

Funny. I like the line "Returns accepted only if not as described ." Sounds like that's going to be really easy to qualify. How did the seller get the impression that this was a Tiawanese tube in the first place?

I lost a Raytheon MIJ that was a Matsushita 45˙ getter this week. It still went cheap, I just wasn't really chasing it that hard.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, speaking of Raytheons, did you ever receive those ARBL tubes from Lori? What did you finally decide they were?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, speaking of Raytheons, did you ever receive those ARBL tubes from Lori? What did you finally decide they were?



Glad you asked. We actually are using the thread as intended. To be blunt, I see no difference whatsoever between an ARBL and a regular Raytheon Gray Plate. The tubes do not say ARBL on them, although there is some alpha-numeric code. I was never able to find out what ARBL stood for and I look hard for a few hours. I'm assuming it is some sort of military designation.

Again, why would this be so difficult to find? If I want to know what the Mullard trademark looked like in 1935, "Bam!" it's on the Internet. If I want to know when a 6SN7 tube was made, "Wham!" I get 58 hits on Dogpile. Want to know something like what the fuck ARBL stands for, forget about it.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I replied back. It was a shocker to me. I saw the tube and knew right away that it was Japanese made. The seller made me laugh. The winner of this auction obtains one Raytheon 12AX7 made in Taiwan.
> 
> How many tubes you ever seen made in Taiwan? One of the few things they did not make and I wonder why. If the tube actually says, "Made In Taiwan" I'll give you $30 for it just to have it as one of my "odd ball" tubes. However, I have never heard of Taiwanese tubes.
> 
> Just for you Ratt:
> 
> Raytheon 12AX7A 12AX7 Amp Radio Reciever Vacuum Tube - eBay (item 160396943143 end time Jan-30-10 08:42:50 PST)



I bought a pair from this same guy and the listing said "Made in Japan" on the pair I got. Was that a good deal or is Raytheon mostly USA?

There are a lot of chinese sellers in this country and a lot of tubes selling from China as NOS. It's hard to tell what you are actually getting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> I bought a pair from this same guy and the listing said "Made in Japan" on the pair I got. Was that a good deal or is Raytheon mostly USA?
> 
> There are a lot of chinese sellers in this country and a lot of tubes selling from China as NOS. It's hard to tell what you are actually getting.



As with almost all USA tube manufacturers, they all turned to the Japanese as a cheap way to produce "replacement" tubes. Tube equipment for the most part was removed from the consumer showrooms in 1967. However, there were still older people with tube equipment from the 40's and others had more recent stuff. It was a shock to some people who had bought a top of the line Fisher tube HiFi in 1964 and three years later they are being told it is outdated and should be replaced with a modern transistor model. The bottom line is that tubes needed to be made for the consumers with tube equipment. The Japanese made tubes with a lot of Philips equipment. The tubes were made in the Philips fashion. However, they were branded as a Mullard, GE, RCA, etc. and sold worldwide. The Japanese made really good tubes, because they had employees that cared about what they were making. The Japanese tube making ran a solid 8 years, but lasted longer than that. When they were done, the focus on tubes goes into what I call the Modern Period. This brought the beginning of 1st generation Russian and Chinese tubes and brings us to the present.


----------



## core

Ah ok well that makes sense. But earlier Russian manufacturers like Svetlana of St. Petersburg were good makers no? Versus later Russian makers? I figured they'd make their own tubes in the 50's and 60's to supply their own military equipment and such.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, St. Petersburg tubes were and still are good. The Svetlana brand name was bought by New Sensor (Sovtek) but tubes are still being made in St. Petersburg under the =C= brand. Tesla (not JJ!), Ei Yugoslavia and Polam were just a few of the Eastern European tube companies that lasted well into the modern age. Marshall used Tesla when Mullard quit building tubes, then Ei when Tesla went away. When Ei folded, they used Svetlana (Winged C) EL34s until the Svetlana name was bought by New Sensor.

I know this isn't specifically related to preamp tubes, just tubes in general. The Polam factory in Warsaw, Poland, was owned by the Philips company and made flourescent lights, mercury vapor lamps, and our old friend, the Philips electron tube. Read this disturbing little blog and you'll get an idea why not many countries still manufacture tubes.

52 Photos of a Poisonous, Abandoned Factory: Enter & Die | Design + Ideas on WU

If you're interested, you can still buy Polam tubes off eBay.


----------



## dodgethis

Hey guys.

I was thinking of doing some testing with some preamp tubes in my JVM410h to see if I could tame the gain and solve the WHOOOSH sound from activating the reverb (which only comes out after I leave the head alone for more than a day). I asked my dad, who runs a high end audio shop, for some 12AX7s and 12AU7s (read about this being used to solve the excessive gain in OD1 and OD2's orange and red modes). He passed several used ones and I was wondering about them.

I got two 12AX7s that are National, called the 12AX7A-GOLD and made in Yugoslavia. Next are the 12AU7s that are labelled 12AU7A, made in East Germany but the brand inellgible on all of them. No pictures of them because my digital camera's SD card is missing.

Could anyone shed some light on these guys and should I use them for testing, or even long term use?


----------



## RiverRatt

The 12AX7s from Yugoslavia are made by Ei and are excellent tubes. They tend to be fairly high gain tubes, so they probably won't help you with taming OD1 and OD2. Also, those 12AU7s will probably tame it too much. What you probably want is a 12AT7 or 5751, which have around 70% of the gain a 12AX7 has. The 12AU7 has around 20%. You might could use the 12AU7 as a phase inverter, but just about anywhere you use it, it will pretty much neuter your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Ah ok well that makes sense. But earlier Russian manufacturers like Svetlana of St. Petersburg were good makers no? Versus later Russian makers? I figured they'd make their own tubes in the 50's and 60's to supply their own military equipment and such.



USSR tubes were pretty much unavailable to the world. If sold on the black market, you could be placed in prison. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the tubes started coming out of the woodwork. I just sent Ratt a 1967 EL84 made for the Russian military. It is a 5000+ hour tube and they sound great. Sure, they're might be some that are better, but this will hold its own against the better tubes. I also bought a huge lot of 1966 Russian 6L6GC's. These were the tubes that Eric Clapton started using quite a while ago. Probably a couple of years after the fall of the Iron Curtain. Anyway, he had access to any tube he wanted, but he picked the Russian military tubes.

I have a lot of data on Russian tube manufacturers in the 50's through 70's. Many of the old plants have been purchased by New Sensor. There is a lot of difficulty over there as the labor force is constantly upset about working conditions, hours, etc. Some employees have sabotaged their plants and halted production. So, there is a lot going on over there nowadays.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Well i just dug out the brimars and the Philips i have sitting in my spares tin, and i noticed that all the philips valves have the crimps on the inside of the plates, where as that mazda has the crimps folded onto the outside.
> 
> from left to right Miniwatt, Philips (harleen), 3 Bel (with E05 code) and Blackburn coded no name (only has 2 seams on the top)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also here are the brimars,the 2 that i think are actual brimars, and the balckburn maded philips one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ps if you are sick of me posting this stuff, just tell me to shut up!
> 
> Just looked through Tubemonger library and found what i think is a match, and you were right guys it looks like a brimar from the 60s
> 
> Brimar ECC83 1960s Short Plate Incorrectly Marked Foreign - England



Have you ever noticed that you can tell a Philips tube by the shape of the nipple? That seems to be as much of a giveaway as the seams in the top. No matter which factory in the world they were made in, they all look the same.


----------



## guitarmartin416

Don't let this page slip....it's too valuable!!!!!!


----------



## solarburn

I've still got some Matsushitas to roll in the Marshall so I will do that soon.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's right - you've been stockpiling Matsushitas while the DSL was away. Did you see those two smooth plates that say Japan on them that I have coming? I can't wait to see just what they are. 

I've got some Matsushitas that I may send you and Marty, just to see if you guys like them. They are the United Electron ones from a few pages back. They are made like my 1966 Mullard short plate with a halo getter, but they don't sound like it. I'm not even 100% sure they are MIJ, but they are definitely Philips. They aren't bad, but they were made in the mid-70s when production was shutting down all over. I don't think they are as good as those old ones with the 45° getter.

All this EL84 talk has got me going amp crazy. What do you guys think of this? The 18-watt clones and RI's that I've heard have sounded great. I've been wanting a medium-powered grab-n-go combo amp, and this one looks nice!

Ceriatone Amplification


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow, that amp uses an EZ81 rectifier tube. Reminds me of a First Generation 35 watt Bogen amp. They used an EZ81.

Now that's "all tube."


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that's right - you've been stockpiling Matsushitas while the DSL was away. Did you see those two smooth plates that say Japan on them that I have coming? I can't wait to see just what they are.
> 
> I've got some Matsushitas that I may send you and Marty, just to see if you guys like them. They are the United Electron ones from a few pages back. They are made like my 1966 Mullard short plate with a halo getter, but they don't sound like it. I'm not even 100% sure they are MIJ, but they are definitely Philips. They aren't bad, but they were made in the mid-70s when production was shutting down all over. I don't think they are as good as those old ones with the 45° getter.
> 
> All this EL84 talk has got me going amp crazy. What do you guys think of this? The 18-watt clones and RI's that I've heard have sounded great. I've been wanting a medium-powered grab-n-go combo amp, and this one looks nice!
> 
> Ceriatone Amplification



Check out the Dr Z Monza too while you're looking. Its is a 20 watter with tone for days...

I luv it what it does.

Ceriatones sound pretty good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I wish I could afford a Dr Z. That's a little out of my ballpark right now. The Ceriatone is only $525 without tubes. I can move a couple of pieces of gear and swing that. I was thinking of pulling one of my G12K-100s and using it in the combo.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I wish I could afford a Dr Z. That's a little out of my ballpark right now. The Ceriatone is only $525 without tubes. I can move a couple of pieces of gear and swing that. I was thinking of pulling one of my G12K-100s and using it in the combo.



You and me both. It will be twice that of the Ceriatone. For me though I'm just going to enjoy my DSL. Have you seen the new Jet City amps done by Mike Soldano? They are designed here in Seattle. They've got a 20 watter for $300 and a 50 watter coming for I believe $599.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You could always get a TWISTER.:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the tip, Marty. I do have a handful of JJ, EH and Sovtek 12AX7s lying around...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You and me both. It will be twice that of the Ceriatone. For me though I'm just going to enjoy my DSL. Have you seen the new Jet City amps done by Mike Soldano? They are designed here where I'm at hehe. They've got a 20 watter for $300 and a 50 watter coming for I believe $599.



I've wanted an 18-watt for a few years now. I'd always thought I would build one, but every time I think about spending that much cash on something I may fock up royally, I just can't do it. When I was a kid, I didn't have the patience to wait for the glue to dry on model airplanes, so maybe amp building isn't for me. The Ceriatone is as cheap as the kits.


----------



## Procter2812

600th POST!! 



Im getting some Tung-sol ecc83's soon.

Cant seem to get ahold of the New Mullard over here in UK??

My NOS are starting to run low... costing me much!! so im just gonna stick em in V1 and the rest CP... moneys low


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have always advised that you just run your best tubes in V1 and V2 and keep the rest for spares. You can run a couple of the Tung-Sol's in V3 and V4. You can also try out a Tung-Sol in V2.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I have always advised that you just run your best tubes in V1 and V2 and keep the rest for spares. You can run a couple of the Tung-Sol's in V3 and V4. You can also try out a Tung-Sol in V2.



There's a Hammond organ on craigs for 150! its like dam probably loaded with Mullards@! wish they werent so big me and my girl would hall that bitch out of there!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> There's a Hammond organ on craigs for 150! its like dam probably loaded with Mullards@! wish they werent so big me and my girl would hall that bitch out of there!



Where is it? Alan and I will drive out to get it. Did you hear that Alan? Bring $75 with you and some gas money. We'll pick up the bitch.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where is it? Alan and I will drive out to get it. Did you hear that Alan? Bring $75 with you and some gas money. We'll pick up the bitch.



michigan, lol far drive bro!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'll let that one pass. That guy in Memphis who put the 6SN7-loaded Baldwin on CL had something like 200 calls in the first 3 hours it was listed. I think that's right. 

I'm exhausted. I've spent the entire day at home from work in bed with my wife. 

We both caught some nasty little virus from the kids.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Feel better...my son also seems to have caught a bug.


----------



## Landshark

ken361 said:


> michigan, lol far drive bro!



It's not too far for me!


----------



## ken361

another hammond organ for 50!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Woohoo! finally got me a pair of Telefunkens (dynaco ones) tested good as new, and for £37 for the pair, which is a bloody bargain compared to the ones ive been following recently, damn teles are going for a lot of cash! Ive been stalking for a pair on ebay for a couple of weeks and finally found these 2, can't wait to try them with the raytheon baldwin blackplates i have coming. 
Pics when they arrive!


----------



## RiverRatt

Good deal! Smooth or ribbed for HER pleasure? We gotta have pics!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Good deal! Smooth or ribbed for HER pleasure? We gotta have pics!



Oh sooo smooth my friend, i had to have them smooth  

edit pics from auction


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see you went with the "Buy It Now." If I remember right those were the Dynaco's. Did the other Telefunkens get out of reach? They still look like nice ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought that this would be the best place to put my

4,000 POST!

Nothing fancy...no big parade or anything. I really appreciate all the people that I have met and my very good cyber friends on this thread. Looking forward to banging out 5,000. Then I will expect something from you, like a parade.


----------



## solarburn

Whoot!


----------



## guitarmartin416

for Marty!!!!!!

Spirit....how you likin those Teles? Now you got the FUNK!!!!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> for Marty!!!!!!
> 
> Spirit....how you likin those Teles? Now you got the FUNK!!!!!!




I only bought them yesterday, and the seller is in Peru, so id imagine a couple of weeks untill i can try them in my amp, good things come to those who wait.  I also just bought a pair of the yugoslavian EI smoothplates, made on the old telefunken equipment, but again ive got a few weeks to wait as that auction was in Canada.
So ive got a pretty good cross section of valves now, maybe try for some RCAs next


----------



## guitarmartin416

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I only bought them yesterday, and the seller is in Peru, so id imagine a couple of weeks untill i can try them in my amp, good things come to those who wait.  I also just bought a pair of the yugoslavian EI smoothplates, made on the old telefunken equipment, but again ive got a few weeks to wait as that auction was in Canada.
> So ive got a pretty good cross section of valves now, maybe try for some RCAs next



I think I know where you can get a couple!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO READ SOMETHING INTERESTING ABOUT PHASE INVERTERS, READ THIS. IT MIGHT CHANGE YOUR THINKING. NOW I ALREADY KNEW THAT CP TUBES DO NOT MEET THE TARGET OUTPUT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER. I FOUND IT A GOOD READ UNTIL HE SAID HE LIKED A SOVTEK LPS AND WAS INTO BALANCED TUBES FOR A PHASE INVERTER.

THIS WAS WRITTEN BY OUR FRIEND MYLES ROSE.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> I think I know where you can get a couple!!!!!



Really? do tell


----------



## guitarmartin416

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Really? do tell



follow my posts? I have about 30 or so 1958 RCA black plates I scored out of that organ.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

I got some old tubes in today. This is the first old tubes a have bought. I am not sure if they are worth using or not, but I didn't pay to much for them so the could be spares. 1st one is a GE 12ax7a with markings 7025 - KK 163-5. 2nd is a Lafaytte 12ax7 with markings 7025 -312 026 agy 986?? and 3rd not sure most of the markings a gone except it looks like a white diamond ? Maybe telefunken? it does have a gray smooth plates and a halo getter. any info would be appreciated. I can try to post pictures a little later if needed. I realize I didn't give the best info in the world, but I am nwe to tubes.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

I got some old tubes in today. This is the first old tubes a have bought. I am not sure if they are worth using or not, but I didn't pay to much for them so the could be spares. 1st one is a GE 12ax7a with markings 7025 - KK 163-5. 2nd is a Lafaytte 12ax7 with markings 7025 -312 026 agy 986?? and 3rd not sure most of the markings a gone except it looks like a white diamond ? Maybe telefunken? it does have gray smooth plates and a halo getter. any info would be appreciated. I can try to post pictures a little later if needed. I realize I didn't give the best info in the world, but I am new to tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cudacrazy72 said:


> I got some old tubes in today. This is the first old tubes a have bought. I am not sure if they are worth using or not, but I didn't pay to much for them so the could be spares. 1st one is a GE 12ax7a with markings 7025 - KK 163-5. 2nd is a Lafaytte 12ax7 with markings 7025 -312 026 agy 986?? and 3rd not sure most of the markings a gone except it looks like a white diamond ? Maybe telefunken? it does have a gray smooth plates and a halo getter. any info would be appreciated. I can try to post pictures a little later if needed. I realize I didn't give the best info in the world, but I am new to tubes.



On the one that may be a Telefunken, look between the pins. There should be an indented circle with a <> pressed on it.

The Lafayette is a Sylvania 7025 tube.

The GE should say 188. Is the 163 smudged? Anyway, it's a 7025 as well. 

We all used to use 7025's in V1 until we realize they are sort of neutral sounding. They are good to use in V2, especially if it's a stout one.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

MartyStrat54 said:


> On the one that may be a Telefunken, look between the pins. There should be an indented circle with a <> pressed on it.
> 
> The Lafayette is a Sylvania 7025 tube.
> 
> The GE should say 188. Is the 163 smudged? Anyway, it's a 7025 as well.
> 
> We all used to use 7025's in V1 until we realize they are sort of neutral sounding. They are good to use in V2, especially if it's a stout one.



Ok I used a magnifing glass to see better. The Tekefunken ? the circle in the bottom looks like it has a diamond pressed on it with 2 2 underneath each other. And the GE does say 188. it was smudged.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> IF YOU REALLY WANT TO READ SOMETHING INTERESTING ABOUT PHASE INVERTERS, READ THIS. IT MIGHT CHANGE YOUR THINKING. NOW I ALREADY KNEW THAT CP TUBES DO NOT MEET THE TARGET OUTPUT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER. I FOUND IT A GOOD READ UNTIL HE SAID HE LIKED A SOVTEK LPS AND WAS INTO BALANCED TUBES FOR A PHASE INVERTER.
> 
> THIS WAS WRITTEN BY OUR FRIEND MYLES ROSE.
> 
> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf



He is why I used a balanced tube in the PI. I read this along time ago and saved it. Course I don't anymore...he's been around them tubes along time though and is well respected for what he knows.


----------



## RiverRatt

"When you push your amp hard it is not as much the output tubes distorting as it is the phase inverter breaking down and distorting."

There's much here that I must read and ponder when I get home from the office and ingest charcoal-filtered fluids. 

I got my Japanese/Philips/Westinghouse smooth plate ECC83s in the mail today! I'm stoked! This is the first tube I've had that was sold as a Westinghouse by way of Japan that has the Philips code for the Ei factory printed on the tube! Wow. And I thought this Wednesday was going to suck like all the others.

Yup. It's getting time for those charcoal-filtered fluids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I'm not saying that Myles is a noob. He makes some great points. I just don't buy into the Sovtek LPS and the balanced PI. You see, guys like him either get told stuff like that by people they respect so they abide by it without ever checking into it on their own. I know a lot of people who buy into Bob at Eurotube's. Read what he says. "I am not an amp tech, I am a guitar player." Bob is another guy that pushes the balanced PI.

No, I think he makes some great points about how the PI affects the entire sound of the amp. He made me rethink a few things. I've been also talking to Jon and I found out that I could be pushing things running those super high gain tubes in V4. Also, the DSL uses its preamp tubes differently over a TSL. I sort of figured that, but if you guys remembered, I tried to find the facts on that when Josh was still with us. Nobody could really answer my question. Jon broke it down for me the other night. I think I'm going to pull some V4 tubes and go with something like 31-31.

Anyway, it's nice to know that someone has read this before. Some of the stuff I find looks interesting and then I notice it was posted in 1998.


----------



## RiverRatt

So how hot is too hot for a PI? I've read some people online using a 12BZ7. What is the danger of a high-gain PI?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, I'm not saying that Myles is a noob. He makes some great points. I just don't buy into the Sovtek LPS and the balanced PI. You see, guys like him either get told stuff like that by people they respect so they abide by it without ever checking into it on their own. I know a lot of people who buy into Bob at Eurotube's. Read what he says. "I am not an amp tech, I am a guitar player." Bob is another guy that pushes the balanced PI.
> 
> No, I think he makes some great points about how the PI affects the entire sound of the amp. He made me rethink a few things. I've been also talking to Jon and I found out that I could be pushing things running those super high gain tubes in V4. Also, the DSL uses its preamp tubes differently over a TSL. I sort of figured that, but if you guys remembered, I tried to find the facts on that when Josh was still with us. Nobody could really answer my question. Jon broke it down for me the other night. I think I'm going to pull some V4 tubes and go with something like 31-31.
> 
> Anyway, it's nice to know that someone has read this before. Some of the stuff I find looks interesting and then I notice it was posted in 1998.



He had posted on HC and I checked some links out about his stuff. That's where I first heard of him and read his writings. I don't buy into the balanced PI for guitar amps. Seems it may matter for HIFI guys. Their amps are different scenarios.

Pretty knowledgeable guy and I learned some things...then promptly forgot them. Thats ok though cause I picked up what I needed here and continue to do so


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> So how hot is too hot for a PI? I've read some people online using a 12BZ7. What is the danger of a high-gain PI?



Well the PI is designed around a certain tube. We take for granted that we can shove anything in there. A BZ7 or a super high gain 12AX7 can distort (in a bad way) the PI circuitry. We have to remember that any amp is designed around a set of parameters. If you go outside of those parameters then you can expect trouble. Jon said I shouldn't be running the ones that I am. They were like 37-39 and I think one was higher. (My hopes were to "wear them down" until I could use them as a V2)


----------



## Landshark

I did some monkeying around today with my two amps. I realized from a short conversation a while ago on here with Marty that my Vox was in fact too clean sounding of an amp and my Marshall a little too dirty. I completely switched the two amps power tubes with eachother (I had E34l JJ power tubes in the TSL and EL34Bs from Ruby in the Vox) so that the JJs are in the Vox (ugh) and the El34Bs are in the Marshall. It dirtied up the vox a little too much for my liking but didn't darken it as much as I thought it would. The Marshall however showed Miles of improvement! It was warm and rich tone rather then dark and cold like it was before. I didn't realize just how dark that amp was until I put the Rubys in. I'm planning on getting two quads of winged =C= EL34B tubes for both amps as I like the tone they push.

Something else I tried was with the pre amp tubes. I really like how that really low 12AX7 Tung Sol (from V1 in the Vox) sounded in V1 on the Marshall. I don't think my cleans have ever sounded so sparkly and clear. The balanced PI tube that I had originally gotten with my JJs was what I placed in V1 in the Vox. It made the cleans really dirty, I had to back the gain almost all the way out. So Those JJs might stick around for V3 and V4 position tubes but if I like the tubes Marty sends me then they might go completely and just stick the Tung Sols in V3 and V4.

I really can't wait to try some more tubes out... especially some NOS tubes. Tomorrow (or todat depending on when you read this) I get to hear the TSL at higher volumes. That will be the real test I suppose. I know one amp I don't want to hear loud is that Vox as long as I only have JJs to put in it. It definately needs something other then JJs in the power section.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have no idea what the gain is like on them, but my Ei ECC83s sound really good in V4. They are there for the duration unless I find something better.

BTW, I wasn't making fun of the tubes I got earlier. I was about 99.9% sure that they were Ei tubes when I pulled the trigger. They appear to be brand new and I've been meaning to pick up a few more of those while they are still affordable. I got the pair for $15 plus UPS. I just thought it was funny that they are the only Ei I've gotten with the Philips Ei factory symbol on them and they are labeled MIJ (it looks like a fermata). 

Joe, have you tried any Ei tubes?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I have no idea what the gain is like on them, but my Ei ECC83s sound really good in V4. They are there for the duration unless I find something better.
> 
> BTW, I wasn't making fun of the tubes I got earlier. I was about 99.9% sure that they were Ei tubes when I pulled the trigger. They appear to be brand new and I've been meaning to pick up a few more of those while they are still affordable. I got the pair for $15 plus UPS. I just thought it was funny that they are the only Ei I've gotten with the Philips Ei factory symbol on them and they are labeled MIJ (it looks like a fermata).
> 
> Joe, have you tried any Ei tubes?



I have not yet but I'm thinking I better get on it. Are you getting them off ebay or are any stores carrying them again...?


----------



## RiverRatt

Let me send you one to try out. I still haven't played through these last two, so it may be a day or two.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Let me send you one to try out. I still haven't played through these last two, so it may be a day or two.



That would be great. No hurry, whenever you get around to it. Thanks Alan!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've said this before. That 1999 DSL401 had all Ei tubes and it sounded at least as good as the two I have right now with super tubes. The older Ei tubes are best. The last two years they made them the QC went to shit.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've said this before. That 1999 DSL401 had all Ei tubes and it sounded at least as good as the two I have right now with super tubes. The older Ei tubes are best. The last two years they made them the QC went to shit.




Please god let these be good ones! I got these 2 for about £25, test very strong so please tell me they is good ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd take a dozen of them. Westinghouse Mullards. Nothing wrong with those tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's about market price, spirit. They are about $20 each here from the online retailers (when they have them). All of mine have been really strong tubes and so far I haven't gotten a microphonic one. Yours are marked Westinghouse England and mine are marked Westinghouse Japan. Did your pair have a gold star on them? Mine did. I don't know if that's a Westinghouse thing or not.


----------



## guitarmartin416

Did those Tele's come in yet?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> Did those Tele's come in yet?



They are coming from Peru, so no not yet.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty & Joe, I've got some stuff to send you guys, but it looks like we're going to be stuck in the house for a few days. We've got snow, sleet, ice, freezing rain, wind, you name it. I'll get the tubes sent out Monday. I think I'm going to catch up on some tube rolling as long as the electricity stays on. They are forecasting at least 1/4" of ice this afternoon.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Marty & Joe, I've got some stuff to send you guys, but it looks like we're going to be stuck in the house for a few days. We've got snow, sleet, ice, freezing rain, wind, you name it. I'll get the tubes sent out Monday. I think I'm going to catch up on some tube rolling as long as the electricity stays on. They are forecasting at least 1/4" of ice this afternoon.



Sounds nasty. You take care through all that. +1 to the power staying on!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope it doesn't get as bad as it did here. That was a mega storm. That ice can be a bitch on them tree branches. They're good at taking power lines down.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hope it doesn't get as bad as it did here. That was a mega storm. That ice can be a bitch on them tree branches. They're good at taking power lines down.





you guys are funny..... I live in Buffalo, you better have snow up past your windshield before they call it a storm here......


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm glad that you live there and not me. I wouldn't be able to joke about it. 

Like living in Phoenix in the summer and complaining that 117 is too hot.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitarmartin416 said:


> you guys are funny..... I live in Buffalo, you better have snow up past your windshield before they call it a storm here......



Down here we don't get plain old snow. First it started as freezing rain, then sleet, then snow. Now it's back to freezing rain. The shrubs out front have at least a 1/4" shell of ice on them. All of the pine trees look like folded up umbrellas. If it keeps doing this the rest of the evening and night like they say it will, we're going to have trees down everywhere. You can still see the effects of the last ice storm we had, and that was 15 years ago. 

I picked up one of those little Tascam MP3 guitar trainers last month when MF closed them out. I'm kinda glad now. Got it all charged up and waiting in case the power goes out.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Down here we don't get plain old snow. First it started as freezing rain, then sleet, then snow. Now it's back to freezing rain. The shrubs out front have at least a 1/4" shell of ice on them. All of the pine trees look like folded up umbrellas. If it keeps doing this the rest of the evening and night like they say it will, we're going to have trees down everywhere. You can still see the effects of the last ice storm we had, and that was 15 years ago.
> 
> I picked up one of those little Tascam MP3 guitar trainers last month when MF closed them out. I'm kinda glad now. Got it all charged up and waiting in case the power goes out.



That ice rain is treacherous especially when it stays for awhile...

We had one of these ice storms years ago and I have never witnessed such a thing before. I watched certain sized trees at work bend all the way to the ground. The ones that were strong enough to stand we throw ice balls(as opposed to snowballs)at them and watch the ice balls shatter or disintegrate to nothing. Talk about body armor. Driving was hazardous but so was walking around on grounds. Power outages due to all the branches and trees falling over the lines. What a mess. Thank goodness the ice storms are far and few between over here. Our winter has been very mild so far. Mostly just rain.


----------



## guitarmartin416

ya a few years back we had the SUPRISE october storm.... don't know if any of you heard about that. An Ice storm that shut WNY down for 2 weeks!!!! That was awesome. Left Buffalo in a state of emergency!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ATTENTION-I was helping out someone to get some NOS tubes and he said he was looking at KCA. Other than noticing the prices are on the high side, I decided to check on Raytheon Black Plates. "None, Out of stock." $70 when in stock. I'm down to about four V2's and the other 30 are 25's, 26's and 27's.

Looks like I'm not the only one feeling the heat.


----------



## RiverRatt

.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ATTENTION-I was helping out someone to get some NOS tubes and he said he was looking at KCA. Other than noticing the prices are on the high side, I decided to check on Raytheon Black Plates. "None, Out of stock." $70 when in stock. I'm down to about four V2's and the other 30 are 25's, 26's and 27's.
> 
> Looks like I'm not the only one feeling the heat.



The prices are through the roof. I took a chance on these two for $28, which is a steal if they are strong. They haven't been on a tester, but I'm willing to take a chance at that price with a 100% feedback seller. 









Here's what the early buds on our big maple tree looked like Saturday morning. We had some pines down in the edge of the yard and a couple of huge cedar limbs broken. At least the power didn't go off here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

We had that two years ago and it tore the hell out of the trees for miles around. I was without power and being that it was 8 degrees outside, I was fearing the pipes would burst. My sister and her husband were without power and we all went over to one of their vacant rental houses and it had the gas and electricity on. What a relief. I actually could sleep without icicles forming on my nose. That was nasty. Now this year we had the blizzard and the newest one missed us but clobbered Tennessee.


----------



## MartyStrat54

More on Raytheon Black Plates. I did a search on EBAY and there are only about 12 Raytheon BP's listed. Wow! Did we just get to the end of the road folks? I may have to sell off all my V1's as they bring just as much money. I mean $185 for four tubes is good money.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> More on Raytheon Black Plates. I did a search on EBAY and there are only about 12 Raytheon BP's listed. Wow! Did we just get to the end of the road folks? I may have to sell off all my V1's as they bring just as much money. I mean $185 for four tubes is good money.



Seriously! Looks like a good time to cash in and make some bank.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Westinghouse Ei's in the house, cant believe how quickly they arrived!

Code on them is difficult to decifer, looks like 291 then something (could be a zero) 7K, they have the 4 seams on the tops and say England on them.

Not tried them yet, im still waiting for those baldwin raytheon blackplates, its been about 3 weeks now and im getting nervous that they have been lost in the post, please let this not be the case.

anyway pics of the westinghouse Ei valves


----------



## RiverRatt

That strange symbol is the Philips factory code for Ei (Elektronski Industija) in Yugoslavia. It's sort of an upside-down U with a dot in the center. Those look just like the Ei/Westinghouse tubes I got last week that were marked "Japan".


----------



## MartyStrat54

And didn't they have the gold star? I thought I remember you bringing that up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, they had the gold star. The only difference was the ink wasn't nearly as bright yellow as on Spirit's tubes.

I sent one of my two plus a Marshall-branded one to Joe for him to try out. He said he hadn't tried an Ei yet. Maybe they'll go over as well as the Matsushitas! Speaking of, is anyone watching the lot of 4 Matsushita 12AX7s on eBay? Only 20 hours left and they are only up to $13. No, they aren't mine... I just noticed them this morning. Two have 45˚ getters. I don't care for the halo getter ones that I've tried.


----------



## Landshark

Marty You're gonna shit when you found out where the mail left those tubes... in front of the wrong apartment, outside, and on a doorstep. I thought that was the absolute worst place to leave the tubes you sent me... I thought being as they were insured and the number of them that I'd have to sign for it or something.

 But they are safe and I'm going to the practice space tomorrow to start testing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's just wonderful. That's the same thing they did when I sent tubes to Racko. I will talk to my postmaster about it. Your neighbor could have taken them and you wouldn't have known it. I sure am glad that you got them.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's just wonderful. That's the same thing they did when I sent tubes to Racko. I will talk to my postmaster about it. Your neighbor could have taken them and you wouldn't have known it. I sure am glad that you got them.



Yea me too! But luckily that neighber I think would have given them to me... She's a nice old lady.


----------



## MartyStrat54

:Ohno:


----------



## ken361

I won this on ebay raytheon black plate baldwin for 15.50! not bad!
12AX7 Raytheon black plate tube Tested ! 1960 - eBay (item 360229643557 end time Feb-02-10 09:09:26 PST)


----------



## RiverRatt

What is up with eBay links not working anymore? 

Ken, I was watching that tube - glad to see that someone here got it. Let us know how it sounds. You know, it might have gone for more if it weren't for that sick green photo!! It seems like the used Raytheon singles and pairs are going cheaper lately. That's good, because I can't afford NOS prices on these things. I just want to get a few of them to keep on-hand for personal use.


----------



## ken361

yeah I keep ya posted, got some rollin to do


----------



## guitarmartin416

I should be able to ship them tubes tomorrow for ya Steve!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I shipped your tubes from the same place that I shipped the Twister. I had it in a Priority Box, but I found out that he had sent them via the media rate. I guess audio tubes qualify. Anyhow, you should get them soon.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, I shipped your tubes from the same place that I shipped the Twister. I had it in a Priority Box, but I found out that he had sent them via the media rate. I guess audio tubes qualify. Anyhow, you should get them soon.



I got them. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> yeah I keep ya posted, got some rollin to do



Yeah, I was watching that tube as well. I'm glad you snagged it. Gee, maybe we are the main EBAY buyers. That's freaky.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So...what's been going on with everyone? Kinda quiet. I like a lot of loud noise. Anybody feel like shouting out?


----------



## Landshark

I've been rolling today! Did quite a few combinations in the Marshall and not as much in the Vox... Funny thing is from tube to tube I can hear differences in the Marshall but i can't hear much of any difference from the Tung Sols to the NOS tubes when I stick them in the Vox. I thought that at least the V2 tubes would make it a little more gain oriented, but nothing. I don't know if you guys remember me mentioning this before but when I put the JJ E34L in the Vox it dirtied up a bit but it didn't darken up the tone at all. I wonder why the tubes aren't having much of an effect.

With the Marshall, I will say V1 was a close tie between 4 of the 5 Marty sent out. The JAN Sylvania, the Ribbed and Smooth Plate Tele's, Phillips Electrohome, and the MullardBlack top were the tubes sent and out of all of them the one I liked the least was the Phillips. It was kinda harsh at times and I had to back the gain off to keep it from crunching a little. I normally run my volume dimed and actually use the gain to control how loud the channel is and Immediately I was looking for a lower gain tube so I could push a little more gain. I wanted to keep or even improve the low gain quality of my V1 because I love that classic chime like you find in a Fender or a Vox.

I couldn't really tell much of an audible difference between the smooth and ribbed plat Tele's. They weren't as harsh and had a nice warm chime to them, but the two I favored most so far were the JAN Sylvania and the Mullard black top. I tried the JAN SYL second and thought that this would be the tube the rest of them compete with... there was just something about it that I didn't hear in the other three. Then I tried out the mullard last and at first I thought it was muddy. Then remembering that I had to back off the gain, I pushed it a little and it cleared right up. I was even able to push it farther then when I had the CP tubes in it for a louder clean tone with the chime I had gotten similar to the others. I think I'm going to have to stick with the Mullard in V1 and see what V2 has in store tomorrow.


----------



## core

Ok so finally got some pics of all the NOS and not so NOS tubes I got for the 6100LM. Will put in a set of the TAD 6L6GC-STR as soon as they arrive! Son was born this past Friday so I've been a busy man!

Check em out.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I was watching that tube as well. I'm glad you snagged it. Gee, maybe we are the main EBAY buyers. That's freaky.



lolll think I might try it in the v2 in the jvm will see how strong it actually is! what you think Marty? I forgot I had a bid on that tube then i got the email i won it lol. you always rave about these black plates so I have to try it out. I missed a couple of deals on ebay i forgot to keep an eye on it and it went pretty cheap.Sometimes there's some good deals and some people ask out rageous prices for tubes.


----------



## ken361

core said:


> Ok so finally got some pics of all the NOS and not so NOS tubes I got for the 6100LM. Will put in a set of the TAD 6L6GC-STR as soon as they arrive! Son was born this past Friday so I've been a busy man!
> 
> Check em out.


nice tubes , what do you like better?


----------



## MartyStrat54

CORE-What did you pay for the Raytheon JRP's? I have three of them, but only one came in the original box. KCA is selling them for $200 each. We posted info here on the thread about it. I got mine for like $50 each.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Possible tube positions.

V1-Tele
V2-Tele
V3-JRP Black Plate
V4-Raytheon Gray Plate
V5-Raytheon Gray Plate
V6-JRP Black Plate


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> CORE-What did you pay for the Raytheon JRP's? I have three of them, but only one came in the original box. KCA is selling them for $200 each. We posted info here on the thread about it. I got mine for like $50 each.



I paid $99 ea for these, they are really nice. I thought that was a good deal but I'm still not sure about NOS values. Judging from what you paid and what KCA is selling for I'd say it's not bad. The guy is Rockside02 on ebay and may have a few more. They came from France.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Ken,
*My heartiest congratulations on the birth of your son*...you kind of snuck that one in between all the tube talk, but I caught it...As on most forums, you know what they say: It (He) doesn't exist until we see photos, so come on Dad, do it....is it your first?
Serge


----------



## core

ken361 said:


> nice tubes , what do you like better?



You know I'm not real sure. I do know they made a big improvement overall for my amps after trying out a few different spots. I'm replacing the power tubes in the 6100 so I can really get a good test out of that once I get it back.

The EL34 900 I think likes the black plates and tele the best but they are all pretty subtle in any tone difference to me. They are however a vast improvement over the stock red stamped tubes it came with.

I do notice I am favoring the EL34 900 over the 6L6 900 with these tubes as it is a lot warmer and more natural sounding. The 6L6's seem to have a lot more gain but at the expense of sounding a bit fake although the A channel is a nice clean when the gain is rolled back.

Which means I will probably sell the 6L6 one as I don't need both. And I may even end up selling the 6100LM as I really like the EL34s and I tend to not fiddle with the knobs on it. I think the 6100 has more than what I really need.


----------



## core

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Ken,
> *My heartiest congratulations on the birth of your son*...you kind of snuck that one in between all the tube talk, but I caught it...As on most forums, you know what they say: It (He) doesn't exist until we see photos, so come on Dad, do it....is it your first?
> Serge



Haha he was quoting me  I'm the one who had a son this past Friday. But yes it is our first and he's gonna be a rocker for sure!


----------



## solarburn

core said:


> Haha he was quoting me  I'm the one who had a son this past Friday. But yes it is our first and he's gonna be a rocker for sure!



Congrats core!


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> The EL34 900 I think likes the black plates and tele the best but they are all pretty subtle in any tone difference to me. They are however a vast improvement over the stock red stamped tubes it came with.



Just a secret to share with you. In your 900, V2 is the only tube that is in the audio signal. "All the other tubes are not." 900 owners do not like to hear this sort of thing, but it's true. Take a gander at a schematic for a 900. V2 is the signal tube. It drives the diode clippers.

That is why you don't hear big changes in the other slots. When you are rolling the reverb driver, it ain't gonna make any difference at all in the tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and I did want to say, "Congratulations." I'm happy for you and your new child.


----------



## core

Thanks guys!

Marty did you ever take a look at that JRP black plate info I posted earlier? The guy still has a few on ebay. Not sure if you were looking or just curious about them.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

In that case, Core, Congrats to you and your family, and start saving up for those Marshalls, Les Pauls, and Strats!

And Ken, go have another baby, while we are talking about it!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok brace yourselves gentlemen, I am about to reveal a fact so staggering it may just unhinge the less stable individuals amongst us, ready? Ok i just bought a very lovely condition (perfect orange lettering) Raytheon black plate JAN-CRP 12AX7 made in the good old U S of A for the princely sum of, £5.73. I will post pics and let you now if it actually works or not (  ) when it arrives.


----------



## ken361

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Ok brace yourselves gentlemen, I am about to reveal a fact so staggering it may just unhinge the less stable individuals amongst us, ready? Ok i just bought a very lovely condition (perfect orange lettering) Raytheon black plate JAN-CRP 12AX7 made in the good old U S of A for the princely sum of, £5.73. I will post pics and let you now if it actually works or not (  ) when it arrives.



seen some on e- bay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joey Voltage and Jon Wilder on 900DR's.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/11654-convert-preamp-jcm900.html


----------



## RiverRatt

One of the two Raytheons I got off eBay turned out to be a bad tube. It's about as strong as a 12AT7 in V1. At least I got one really nice Raytheon BP for $28, so I'm willing to overlook the bad one, but it's still a pisser.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd get half of my money back. Did the seller offer refunds/returns?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, it was a gamble. No returns accepted. Next time I'll buy a lottery ticket instead.


----------



## MartyStrat54

THAT BASTURD! He knew it was weak.


----------



## ken361

just give him a bad rep!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I generally do not buy if they do not offer a return. This is justified by the old tube tester and the bad eggs I find. Even GreenGirl sent me a bad one. How it passed her tube testing I'll never know, but the tube was gassy and had a hard short. I kind of screwed myself and took a tube of lesser value from her and it took forever to get the tube. It was the Raytheon ARBL. Still trying to figure out what that means.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been noticing those letters on several Raytheon tubes. I think they are some sort of factory lot number or other factory ID. The ones I got both had a 62-05 date code and both had the letters AS at the top under the USA stamp. There's a Raytheon on eBay that has an AR stamp. The only ones I've seen with four letters, i.e. ARBL, have been MIJ tubes.

I got a reply from the seller and he's going to see if he can find another tube to send this weekend. He seems pretty honest - I really don't think he knew the tube was bad.

Just for the sake of curiosity, do the MIJ Raytheons sound anything like the USA tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the only thing I can say is this. Matsushita made 80 percent of all the tubes exported from Japan. They used the same equipment to make tubes, regardless of what brand went on it. They were just a safety net so to speak. The transistor was in, but there was still a demand for tubes. Just remember, Ken-Rad (GE) and Philips ECG were still making tubes in the USA when Matsushita was making tubes in Japan. Real American tubes had not dried up completely. The MIJ tubes were being made to quench the "worldwide" demand for tubes. They were all made the same, just a different label. So was a made in Japan Raytheon built like a made in USA Raytheon? I strongly doubt it. Were they made more like a Philips tube? Yes. Is that a bad thing? No.

Again, information on the back end of tube history is bleak. I would love to know when Japanese tube production started and when it stopped.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

The $9 raytheon arrived today, looks mint condition, although i have not seen with the Raytheon name being expanded in the middle of the text like this before. Have yet to pop it in the amp, will try it tonight, has the number 21 on the base formed into the glass.

edit Well i put it in and it works, which is great, but more importantly it sounds fantastic! OMG what a bargain, i cant believe that this one slipped into my hands for so little, stop the presses, ebay does still have bargains!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you got that for $9, I want to be your friend.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you got that for $9, I want to be your friend.




It was £5.73, which about $9 at a guess, i really dont know how it slipped under the radar of most buyers but it did, and i knabbed it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I think I speak for all of the regulars here..."You got one hell of a deal!"


----------



## Landshark

I had a thought/question for the experienced guys on here... or if youjust happen to know that'll help to...

I was thinking about V3, the tone stack in my TSL. Does this tube have any audible effect on tone? I thought I had seen on here before that it didn't really effect the tone in a massive way. the reason being is right now I'm testing some tubes Marty sent me and I've got Mullards in V1 and 2 that I like and was curious as to putting a Rayethon Black Plate in V3. I have a feeling that this isn't a bad idea by any means but I think I'll test it out anyway as I really want to get away from the JJs. To top it off I'm gonna try that JAN Sylvania Marty sent me in the PI being as its balanced at 28-28.


----------



## racko7566

WOW, that is a super price for a black plate. they are like herion, need em, want em, gotta have em!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Landshark said:


> I was thinking about V3, the tone stack in my TSL. Does this tube have any audible effect on tone? I thought I had seen on here before that it didn't really effect the tone in a massive way. the reason being is right now I'm testing some tubes Marty sent me and I've got Mullards in V1 and 2 that I like and was curious as to putting a Rayethon Black Plate in V3. I have a feeling that this isn't a bad idea by any means but I think I'll test it out anyway as I really want to get away from the JJs. To top it off I'm gonna try that JAN Sylvania Marty sent me in the PI being as its balanced at 28-28.



I wouldn't use a Raytheon BP in V3 - you're just going to wear it out faster. That's a waste of a very good tube. I've not noticed a difference in tubes in V3 unless it's a drastic change, like using a 12AT7 instead of a 12AX7.

I don't know what else you've got, but I'd use that strong JAN Sylvania in V3 and something high gain in V4. We all here pretty much agree that it's not necessary to use a matched PI and that the amp may sound better if it is mismatched. 

I appreciate that you want to get rid of the JJs, but try them in V4 before you throw them out, especially if they are high gain. Just take a spare or two with you when you're rehearsing or gigging 

From what I see here about your collection, I'd use one of the Mullards in V1, the Raytheon in V2, the Sylvania in V3 and the other Mullard in V4. This is pretty close to what I run, although I really like a Telefunken smooth plate in V1 with the Ray BP in V2. Like I said before, it won't hurt to try the JJs in V4, too. You might find that you like them as well as the Mullard in V4. 

It's my preference to use a strong NOS tube for the phase inverter, not so much for tone but to make the amp more dynamic and responsive.


----------



## ken361

My baldwin Raytheon black plate came in saturday. I popped it in the v2 and sounds pretty good, the testing he gave me was at 81/83 close to new. I got it for 15.50 on ebay. I tried it in the v1 and my sylvania baldwin in the v2 but it didnt sound too good. So its staying in the v2 for now its a 1960 tube I cant get my pics up now but it looks good. If it was a weak tube I should be able to tell right away. also have marty's mullard in the v3 and a EH in the v4 and v5 lps in the PI.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RATT-This is LandSharks hoard of tubes. I think he should find some keepers.

V1's

1.Smooth Plate Tele 25-26
2.Ribbed Plate Tele 27-25
3.Mullard Black Top 25-25
4.JAN Sylavania GP 28-28
5.Philips GP 25-27

V2's

1.RCA Mullard 30-31
2.Philips EH 30-30
3.Raytheon BP 33-28
4.Amperex GP 28-29
5.Matsushita Slant Getter 29-31

A whole lot of tubes to roll.


----------



## Landshark

RiverRatt said:


> I wouldn't use a Raytheon BP in V3 - you're just going to wear it out faster. That's a waste of a very good tube. I've not noticed a difference in tubes in V3 unless it's a drastic change, like using a 12AT7 instead of a 12AX7.
> 
> I don't know what else you've got, but I'd use that strong JAN Sylvania in V3 and something high gain in V4. We all here pretty much agree that it's not necessary to use a matched PI and that the amp may sound better if it is mismatched.
> 
> I appreciate that you want to get rid of the JJs, but try them in V4 before you throw them out, especially if they are high gain. Just take a spare or two with you when you're rehearsing or gigging
> 
> From what I see here about your collection, I'd use one of the Mullards in V1, the Raytheon in V2, the Sylvania in V3 and the other Mullard in V4. This is pretty close to what I run, although I really like a Telefunken smooth plate in V1 with the Ray BP in V2. Like I said before, it won't hurt to try the JJs in V4, too. You might find that you like them as well as the Mullard in V4.
> 
> It's my preference to use a strong NOS tube for the phase inverter, not so much for tone but to make the amp more dynamic and responsive.



That's the info I was hoping for. I've been running the V1 position with th mullard black top rated 25-25 and an RCA mullard in V2 rated 30-31 and two high gain JJs in V3 and 4. I like that set up. I was just wondering what affect the tone stack would have on a Rayethon BP. Since all it will do is wear it out I won't go that route. Just my curiosity. I like the low rated mullard in V1 because I run the volume dimed and use the gain for volume. The low rating gives me a little more room to turn the gain up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's no problem trying the BP in V3. The tone stack does add a little bit of gain to the overall circuit. The whole point is that it is not that critical. You might experience a small change in the tone and that is not worth a BP being in there.

That is why I use Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse tubes in V3 and V4. Now granted, I have said this before. Sylvania is a damn good tube, it's just that there are so many of them. They outproduced just about everyone. The earlier Sylvania's were actually made better than RCA's. So using Sylvania's or Five Star GE's are not a bad thing. These are good tubes, but they are priced much lower than the desirable tubes. V3 and V4 tubes are a monetary issue. If you want to go "all" NOS, you use the Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse tubes in V3 and V4 and put your money in V1 and V2.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> There's no problem trying the BP in V3. The tone stack does add a little bit of gain to the overall circuit. The whole point is that it is not that critical. You might experience a small change in the tone and that is not worth a BP being in there.
> 
> That is why I use Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse tubes in V3 and V4. Now granted, I have said this before. Sylvania is a damn good tube, it's just that there are so many of them. They outproduced just about everyone. The earlier Sylvania's were actually made better than RCA's. So using Sylvania's or Five Star GE's are not a bad thing. These are good tubes, but they are priced much lower than the desirable tubes. V3 and V4 tubes are a monetary issue. If you want to go "all" NOS, you use the Sylvania, GE and Westinghouse tubes in V3 and V4 and put your money in V1 and V2.



I had remembered that you'd told me that Sylvania would be a good PI. Which if those would you try in V3? I was also thinking on the matsushita for V3 since you said stay cheap.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> RATT-This is LandSharks hoard of tubes. I think he should find some keepers.
> 
> V1's
> 
> 1.Smooth Plate Tele 25-26
> 2.Ribbed Plate Tele 27-25
> 3.Mullard Black Top 25-25
> 4.JAN Sylavania GP 28-28
> 5.Philips GP 25-27
> 
> V2's
> 
> 1.RCA Mullard 30-31
> 2.Philips EH 30-30
> 3.Raytheon BP 33-28
> 4.Amperex GP 28-29
> 5.Matsushita Slant Getter 29-31
> 
> A whole lot of tubes to roll.



Yeah, and don't rule out some of those V2s in V1. I've got a strong Matsushita that is absolutely raunchy (in a good way) in V1. I prefer the slant getters to the Mullards I've used. They are probably the most underrated NOS tube you'll find. IMO they are stronger in the low mids than a Mullard, which makes them sound darker in V1. They also have a little more "hair" than a Mullard, again in a good way. I like to back off the gain on these and crank the master as loud as I can get away with. They have a really powerful tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Landshark said:


> I had remembered that you'd told me that Sylvania would be a good PI. Which if those would you try in V3? I was also thinking on the matsushita for V3 since you said stay cheap.



See the above post. Just because Matsushitas are inexpensive right now, don't rule them out as a tone tube. They are on-par with the biggest names in the business. I buy every one I can afford.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> I had remembered that you'd told me that Sylvania would be a good PI. Which if those would you try in V3? I was also thinking on the matsushita for V3 since you said stay cheap.



Well first off, it just happened that the SYL was a 28-28, but that doesn't mean that makes it the perfect V4 tube. It doesn't. It just happened to be a balanced tube. RATT gave some great suggestions and I think you should try them. You have plenty of time, I don't have a clock running on this. I just wanted to give you the chance to try a wide spectrum of tubes. Put a V2 in V1 and see if that is the gain/tone you are looking for. There are no rules. It is all about what works for you.

Now I see you are asking about Winged C's. Changing power tubes will affect what you have picked as your preamp tubes. If this is something you are going to do, I say do it, get the power tubes biased and then roll the preamp tubes. It won't do you any good to roll preamp tubes "and" then change power tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, someone make this make sense.

I was messing around with my two new Raytheons, mainly to make sure I had the bad tube identified correctly, and when I put it in V1, it sounded fine. I thought I had the wrong tube, so I put the other one in, and it sounded the same. I thought maybe they were both bad, so I put my known good Raytheon in V1 and guess what? Same sound. I swapped the two new ones around again, and the bad tube sounded just a bit weaker at first, but after playing on them for awhile, I couldn't tell the difference. Ear fatigue? I had my daughter do a listen test and she couldn't hear any difference, either. I cranked the master up to 4 and played on both tubes and they sounded great. Very gainy, nice feedback, dynamic, good pinch harmonics, all that good stuff. I probably got in an hour of playing time on the bad tube and it was rock-solid. The only difference was that there was a small piece of mica in the bottom of the tube that I'm pretty sure wasn't there before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The mica could have been in a place where it was causing the problem. It's non-conductive, but it could have been in a spot where it was getting hot and expanding and causing a short. I've seen that.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well first off, it just happened that the SYL was a 28-28, but that doesn't mean that makes it the perfect V4 tube. It doesn't. It just happened to be a balanced tube. RATT gave some great suggestions and I think you should try them. You have plenty of time, I don't have a clock running on this. I just wanted to give you the chance to try a wide spectrum of tubes. Put a V2 in V1 and see if that is the gain/tone you are looking for. There are no rules. It is all about what works for you.
> 
> Now I see you are asking about Winged C's. Changing power tubes will affect what you have picked as your preamp tubes. If this is something you are going to do, I say do it, get the power tubes biased and then roll the preamp tubes. It won't do you any good to roll preamp tubes "and" then change power tubes.



Alright. I'll just mess around to my hearts desire. I just wasn't sure about time constraints and I know I went into this thinking I'd like the mullards the best, but was suprised when I liked some of the others just as much and didn't know what to do thinking I didn't have a whole lot of time. I'll probably leave at least one JJ in either 3 or 4... maybe even both. I have enough to mess around with in V1 and 2 without worrying about those right now.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

I had to take the day off work today to get the car sorted out at the garage, and as I had the house to myself i rolled some valves. Had a chance to put in the Raytheon Blackplate with the halo getter i just recieved, put this in V2 and then rolled a lot of valves in V1.
Oh btw my 2 dynaco telefunkens came in today, I will post pics soon, so i had a chance to complare these to all my other valves and that included the westinghouse smooth plates i got recently aswell.
After a good few hours the winner was the westinghouse smooth plate by Ei, it has lots of gain (or should i say its just a very strong/loud valve), it is very crisp and tight but with a big bottom end. The cleans are superb, musical and clear and the crunch is packed full of hrmonic content and as defined as you like. When driven hard with OD2 the notes stand out very impressivley, being again full of character and punchy as hell.
The dynaco/telefunkens were a lot like this, but only less so then the Westinghouse, hard to put my finger on it, maybe just not as loud, less gain if you will, nothing wrong with them at all, and i will be popping them in when the westinghouese fail.
Also got to try my RFTs while i was at it,and they are pretty much like the westinghouses but a little darker and with a tad less bottom end, but i thourpughly recommend them as i se them all the time in NOS format for not a lot of money.


----------



## guitarmartin416

Wooo Hoooo...... so I finally found a reputable amp guy in my neighborhood....and to make it even cooler, he is TEACHING me how to do my mods on the BB, walkin me through every step of the way. What a great guy, and very knowledgeable. So..... after I'm done with the mods, I can start RE-rolling all the sweet tubes I got....lol. I'll just be happy when I can finally play my Marshall again, AND he and I are gonna start on a custom HI WATT amp build so I get the best of ALL worlds..... I can use a whole bunch of these great pre- tubes I have layin around!!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> After a good few hours the winner was the westinghouse smooth plate by Ei, it has lots of gain (or should i say its just a very strong/loud valve), it is very crisp and tight but with a big bottom end. The cleans are superb, musical and clear and the crunch is packed full of hrmonic content and as defined as you like. When driven hard with OD2 the notes stand out very impressivley, being again full of character and punchy as hell.
> The dynaco/telefunkens were a lot like this, but only less so then the Westinghouse, hard to put my finger on it, maybe just not as loud, less gain if you will, nothing wrong with them at all, and i will be popping them in when the westinghouese fail.



I was talking up Matsushita 12AX7s as being a great value right now, but the Ei tubes are another sleeper, especially the older ones. You hear a lot of talk about how they are prone to be microphonic, but I haven't gotten a bad one yet. I still prefer the Telefunken smooth plates, but they are very similar in tone. 

I love reading those threads on here about how people say they can't afford old tubes. I just smile and think about all the old glass I've bought for less than the price of a new Tung-Sol reissue.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I was talking up Matsushita 12AX7s as being a great value right now, but the Ei tubes are another sleeper, especially the older ones. You hear a lot of talk about how they are prone to be microphonic, but I haven't gotten a bad one yet. I still prefer the Telefunken smooth plates, but they are very similar in tone.
> 
> I love reading those threads on here about how people say they can't afford old tubes. I just smile and think about all the old glass I've bought for less than the price of a new Tung-Sol reissue.




Its true you dont have to pay a fortune for decent old valves. I know now i am going to be keeping an eye out for Ei's and RFTs as i like the sounds they make in my amp. Not that i dont still like the philips valves or the brimars they are great sounding, but at the moment my preference lays with the Ei's in fact ive got some money coming back from a couple of valves that didnt show up in the post (very nice seller btw) and i have seen a couple of NOS Ei's from the 70s that i may have to grab.


----------



## musicman

Apologies if this has been covered before but there are 107 pages in this thread...
I'm using a TSL122 and just tried an old yellow badge Mullard in V1 then a JAN Phillips 12AT7 in V2 (stock valves in V3 & 4) and it's made a huge improvement to the crunch & lead channels (to my ears).
It's really calmed the gain down and taken some treble away too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

musicman said:


> Apologies if this has been covered before but there are 107 pages in this thread...
> I'm using a TSL122 and just tried an old yellow badge Mullard in V1 then a JAN Phillips 12AT7 in V2 (stock valves in V3 & 4) and it's made a huge improvement to the crunch & lead channels (to my ears).
> It's really calmed the gain down and taken some treble away too.



Welcome. Yes a lot of us have experimented with 12AT7's and if you are happy with the tone, great. I just feel a 12AT7 neuters the TSL. The signal from V1 hits V2 like a brick wall. Now this might be the sound you are after. One of the forum techs is doing voicing mods on DSL/TSL amps and one of the things he is doing is tweaking the amount of gain produced by each gain stage. In a ways, you are doing the same thing by using the 12AT7.


----------



## RiverRatt

This past week's acquisitions:

The good...






The bad...






And the ugly...






The 2nd Raytheon is the one that actually turned out to be good. The Mojo Tone 12AX7 Mesa 7025 STR 12AX7-A ECC83 Chinese tube I found in a box of mic and speaker cables. It sounds perfectly awful in V1. I got it and a 20 ft. super heavy duty speaker cable for $5. Now I don't know what to do with either. Anyone have a use for a 20' speaker cable?


----------



## musicman

Yes I tried a GE 5* 12AY7 in V2 as well but this cut the gain too much.
Will know more after rehearsal tomorrow night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can always bump it up a little more with a 5751. This may be the tube you will want to use.


----------



## MartyStrat54

"E PLURIBUS RETUBEM." That sounds as bad as the tube.

It was just another funny gimmick to sell crappy tubes.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> "E PLURIBUS RETUBEM." That sounds as bad as the tube.
> 
> It was just another funny gimmick to sell crappy tubes.



I think I might like the Mullard a tad over the raytheon black plate in the v2, the mullard has a little softer touch to the crunch?? that sound right? lol. Prob depends on tube strength also but these two are very close


----------



## core

Ok guys I'm scratching my head trying to find the info on the JCM900 preamp positions. I recall someone mentioning what each position does I thought in this thread.

Could someone explain what V1, V2, and V3 do? I think V3 is the PI but not sure which is the gain position and which is the reverb position and how they relate.

I'm trying to roll some of these tubes I have (Raytheon GP/BP, RCA 7025, Tele) and I think I got a good setup right now but maybe I am wasting a good tube because it's in the wrong position. Or maybe a good tube is not needed in a certain position, mainly if it only affects the reverb.

Hope all is well with everyone!
Thanks guys.

BTW got the the TAD's in the 6100LM and it really improved the amp big time! The scratchy static noise is finally gone so I am very happy.


----------



## musicman

Quite liked the 12AX7/12AT7 set up.
I'm going to buy a 5751 for V2 and an early break up 12AX7 for V1 and try those.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Ok guys I'm scratching my head trying to find the info on the JCM900 preamp positions. I recall someone mentioning what each position does I thought in this thread.
> 
> Could someone explain what V1, V2, and V3 do? I think V3 is the PI but not sure which is the gain position and which is the reverb position and how they relate.



I thought it was here as well. Sometimes it's a lot further back then you think. I do know this and it is something 900 owners do not want to hear. The 900 is really a hybrid amplifier. That is, the preamp tubes are not used like a regular Marshall. V1 add some tube signal to the diode clippers, V2 is a reverb driver tube and V3 is the phase inverter. V1 is the only tube that has anything to do with the tone of the amp and it does not have the impact of a regular V1 in say an 800 2203.

Where did you find those great tube layout charts? If you remember, post it so I can archive it.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought it was here as well. Sometimes it's a lot further back then you think. I do know this and it is something 900 owners do not want to hear. The 900 is really a hybrid amplifier. That is, the preamp tubes are not used like a regular Marshall. V1 add some tube signal to the diode clippers, V2 is a reverb driver tube and V3 is the phase inverter. V1 is the only tube that has anything to do with the tone of the amp and it does not have the impact of a regular V1 in say an 800 2203.
> 
> Where did you find those great tube layout charts? If you remember, post it so I can archive it.



Thanks Marty!

This one for the 6100LM was in my album. I did a look back into this thread and couldn't find it either lol so I grabbed it from the album. I think there was another schematic posted for the 900 but I can't seem to find that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I looked at a 900 schematic and what I told you is what is on the schematic. V1 is the only tube worth rolling.


----------



## MartyStrat54

/ `--'(
< [] []////////|:::>
\_.--.( 

/ `--'(
< [] []////////|:::>
\_.--.( 

/ `--'(
< [] []////////|:::>
\_.--.( 

Rock on my brothers, rock on.


----------



## Landshark

RiverRatt said:


> This past week's acquisitions:
> 
> The good...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The bad...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the ugly...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2nd Raytheon is the one that actually turned out to be good. The Mojo Tone 12AX7 Mesa 7025 STR 12AX7-A ECC83 Chinese tube I found in a box of mic and speaker cables. It sounds perfectly awful in V1. I got it and a 20 ft. super heavy duty speaker cable for $5. Now I don't know what to do with either. Anyone have a use for a 20' speaker cable?



I could use a 20 ft speaker cable!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry dude, I already gave it away. Free gear doesn't last long around here.


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone here had any experience with buying international tubes, especially from China, on eBay? There's a couple that I've not bid on that I would really have liked to have. A Bel 12AX7 just went for roughly $10. I've noticed that most of the sellers have 100% feedback. What do you guys think?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Has anyone here had any experience with buying international tubes, especially from China, on eBay? There's a couple that I've not bid on that I would really have liked to have. A Bel 12AX7 just went for roughly $10. I've noticed that most of the sellers have 100% feedback. What do you guys think?



I would have gone for it. Especially if the outlay is small. Supposedly EBAY and PayPal would have your back. That BEL would have been nice. 

I've bought from a guy in Germany before. I also have bought from S. America.


----------



## RiverRatt

The deal I'm looking at now is a relabeled Mazda with silver anodes for $45 plus $10 shipping. The tube is worth twice that. It never states in the auction that it is a Mazda, but there's nothing else it could be. It's almost one of those "too good to be true" deals.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The deal I'm looking at now is a relabeled Mazda with silver anodes for $45 plus $10 shipping. The tube is worth twice that. It never states in the auction that it is a Mazda, but there's nothing else it could be. It's almost one of those "too good to be true" deals.



Well they are the only one's that made a tube like that, so I would think it's the Mazda. And yes, it most certainly could be relabeled.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know I have forgotten a lot, being that I'm a feeble minded old man, but have you ever heard of this number for a 12AX7? Must be damn good one's. He has two pairs for sale. I'm thinking these would be more suited to the first gain stage of a HiFi amp.

NOS NIB MATCHED MOTOROLA PAIR 7058 TUBES RCA 12AX7 SUB - eBay (item 120518693261 end time Feb-15-10 01:57:19 PST)

Item #120518693261 if it doesn't come up. Load it manually.


----------



## RiverRatt

From vacuumtubes.com:

"Same as 12AX7 except for a 13.5 volt non-tapped filament. These can be used in circuits which don't use the 6.3V filament tap. Performance should be identical to any equivalent 12AX7."

Don't pretty much all guitar amps use 6.3v heaters? Don't they have to use the center tap on pin 9 to do this? Ask one of the techs on here to be sure, but I don't think this tube is a direct substitute.

Other than that, they just look like a plain ol' RCA 12AX7 construction-wise.

Edit: I found another source that mentions that 7058 filaments CAN NOT be used at 6.3v. Apparently the seller doesn't know that:

"GUARENTEED HIGH QUALITY PERFECT PERFORMANCE WITH THESE TUBES IN YOUR 12AX7 APPLICATION."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was in a hurry going out the door when I posted. Yeah, I believe that is an automotive radio type tube. If you put that in a 12AX7 circuit the heaters would "brown out" and fail. Another guy selling tubes with misleading info. Thanks Alan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just sent the seller a notice that he need to change his listing. Let's see what he has to say.


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, here's the tube I thought was a Mazda. I've been looking at Mazda tubes on the 'net and they all look different from this one. I read somewhere that there were some Russian-made tubes that have silver plates. Check this out and let me know what you think.






Here's the item number: 260549541073


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did the only thing I could, I asked them. These guys are safe to buy from. They have been around for a long time. I have been tempted to buy from them in the past, but they are higher than GreenGirl.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's the answer Alan. Bad English and all.

Hello, This tubes made in France MAZIDA. There is no code on the glass.
Regards
xiaohua.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks! Imagine that... asking the seller a question. I wonder why he didn't mention that it was a Made in France Mazida in the auction. Maybe more people are looking for Raytheons.

I still want to find out more before I buy, like finding out when this one was made. The early 1960s Mazda tubes are supposed to be like a Telefunken ECC803S but with more gain. They are described as punchy.


----------



## musicman

Bought a high gain "Harma Retro" for V1 (Watford Valves own label in the UK) and a Jan Phillips 5071.
I believe the Harma is manufactured by Tung Sol now (they used to be JJ's).
Quite like the Harma but the 5071 has too much gain for me so I've gone back to the GE 5* 12AY7 in V2.
This seems to work well with the higher gain Harma in V1.
Got 2 RFT 12AX7's on the way too.

I will have a few valves spare when I finally settle on something so will offer them on here before the dreaded ebay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Response from the 7058 guy:

Q: You are saying it will blow up an amplifier?

I spent a lot of time researching this tube on my database. This tube was a prototype of a 12AX7 in the fact that it was "designed to be run off of batteries." It was mainly designed for mobile communication and car radio applications. Yes, it is similar to a 12AX7, but all of the tests on this tube were done at 13.5VDC and not 12.6V (12AX7's can run either AC or DC on the heater filaments.) The only saving grace that I found was a performance test and it shows that the tube can run on heater voltages of 12.0 to 15.0VDC. With that being stated, the tube could be used in place of a 12AX7, but the overall performance of the tube would be different at 12.6V versus 13.5V. (The hotter the heater, the operating parameters of the tube change.) In other words, this would more than likely be a "cold" running tube at 12.6V in a normal 12AX7 circuit. These are just my opinions, you run your auction the way you feel you should.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks! Imagine that... asking the seller a question. I wonder why he didn't mention that it was a Made in France Mazida in the auction. Maybe more people are looking for Raytheons.
> 
> I still want to find out more before I buy, like finding out when this one was made. The early 1960s Mazda tubes are supposed to be like a Telefunken ECC803S but with more gain. They are described as punchy.



I keep going back and looking at that tube. Do you think it was actually sent back to the USA originally as replacement stock? On Tubemonger, the Mazda's have a lot of printed info on the tube. The Raytheon is void of all of this suggesting it was in fact meant for export back to the USA. 

The other thing that baffles me is the stencil style lettering on the tube. It's not Raytheon lettering. That would freak me out if Raytheon placed an order for say 5,000 of these Mazda's for USA replacements. Wow!

Then you have to consider that the tube went from France to someplace unknown, but ended up in China. That is quite a journey for a tube. I can see not all of the US branded "MIJ" tubes making it to the US. I'm sure you had employee's smuggling tubes out everyday. These tubes also have been found many countries away from the source.

I thought I had found a book on what I was looking for, but it wasn't what I thought it would be. I'm looking for a book that shows the history of all tube makers from 1965 (when transistors hit hard) to when they folded. I may have to write it myself. (Just envision all of the permission requests that would have to be granted.)

I am utterly baffled that an entire industry folded and no one had anything to say about it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Response from the 7058 guy:
> 
> Q: You are saying it will blow up an amplifier?
> 
> I spent a lot of time researching this tube on my database. This tube was a prototype of a 12AX7 in the fact that it was "designed to be run off of batteries." It was mainly designed for mobile communication and car radio applications. Yes, it is similar to a 12AX7, but all of the tests on this tube were done at 13.5VDC and not 12.6V (12AX7's can run either AC or DC on the heater filaments.) The only saving grace that I found was a performance test and it shows that the tube can run on heater voltages of 12.0 to 15.0VDC. With that being stated, the tube could be used in place of a 12AX7, but the overall performance of the tube would be different at 12.6V versus 13.5V. (The hotter the heater, the operating parameters of the tube change.) In other words, this would more than likely be a "cold" running tube at 12.6V in a normal 12AX7 circuit. These are just my opinions, you run your auction the way you feel you should.



It would probably work ok in a circuit with 12 volt heaters, but not a guitar amp that runs at 6.3 volts. He states in the auction that it will work in a Marshall and that ain't gonna happen.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I keep going back and looking at that tube. Do you think it was actually sent back to the USA originally as replacement stock? On Tubemonger, the Mazda's have a lot of printed info on the tube. The Raytheon is void of all of this suggesting it was in fact meant for export back to the USA.
> 
> The other thing that baffles me is the stencil style lettering on the tube. It's not Raytheon lettering. That would freak me out if Raytheon placed an order for say 5,000 of these Mazda's for USA replacements. Wow!
> 
> Then you have to consider that the tube went from France to someplace unknown, but ended up in China. That is quite a journey for a tube. I can see not all of the US branded "MIJ" tubes making it to the US. I'm sure you had employee's smuggling tubes out everyday. These tubes also have been found many countries away from the source.
> 
> I thought I had found a book on what I was looking for, but it wasn't what I thought it would be. I'm looking for a book that shows the history of all tube makers from 1965 (when transistors hit hard) to when they folded. I may have to write it myself. (Just envision all of the permission requests that would have to be granted.)
> 
> I am utterly baffled that an entire industry folded and no one had anything to say about it.



I'm still not convinced enough that it's a Mazda to plunk down my $55. Have you found a Mazda yet that has a circle cut out in the center of the plate like that one? All the ones I've seen so far have a big rectangular cutout.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's my new V2. What a kicker. Check out the brand name.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I finally stumbled onto the "original" Raytheon Black Plate. This baby is a monster.


----------



## guitarmartin416

Hey Boy's!!!! I've been absent a bit, but I FINALLY finished my JTM 45. This guy I met really helped me out.
soo....
I'm now runnin EL34...all trem circuits are bypassed, and am using the switch for trem as a 3db boost. I think I'm gonna take the trem tube and add another gain stage in there.
....so my question is (Marty) I obviously have to re-roll my pre tubes. Any suggestions???? Or do you still stand by your original lineup?

Spirit...don't worry the tubes are comin, just been a little tied up.


----------



## guitarmartin416

oh ya...and I got a new Les Paul too.....


----------



## RiverRatt

guitarmartin416 said:


> oh ya...and I got a new Les Paul too.....





I need to do that too. I think I'm at an all-time low guitar-wise. I just sold my strat this weekend and I've only got one electric now, my 1958 LP reissue. Time to start shopping!


----------



## guitarmartin416

A pic of a few of my ladies!


----------



## solarburn

guitarmartin416 said:


> A pic of a few of my ladies!



Guitar porn! Gorgeous.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitarmartin416 said:


> A pic of a few of my ladies!



Sweet custom! I had a '79 cherry custom and sold it around 15 years ago. If I could have one guitar back that I used to own, it would be that one.

I know guitar photos in the amp forum go over about as well as a turd in a punchbowl, but here's mine:


----------



## guitarmartin416

she's puuurrrdy!!!! Ya I've got a horrible disease, I'm suprised I haven't sold my children to the black market yet!!!!! Then I could buy more gear!


----------



## solarburn

These Les Pauls are making me salivate...

I still have never had one. If any guitar goes with a Marshall its an LP! 

One uh dese days...


----------



## guitarmartin416

I wish I had a good pic of my '59 jr, now there's somethin to drool over!!!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> Hey Boy's!!!! I've been absent a bit, but I FINALLY finished my JTM 45. This guy I met really helped me out.
> soo....
> I'm now runnin EL34...all trem circuits are bypassed, and am using the switch for trem as a 3db boost. I think I'm gonna take the trem tube and add another gain stage in there.
> ....so my question is (Marty) I obviously have to re-roll my pre tubes. Any suggestions???? Or do you still stand by your original lineup?
> 
> Spirit...don't worry the tubes are comin, just been a little tied up.




Cheers dude, much appreciated.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

OK, a combination of amp porn AND guitar porn


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarmartin416 said:


> ...so my question is (Marty) I obviously have to re-roll my pre tubes. Any suggestions???? Or do you still stand by your original lineup?



Did you modify the preamp? Did you change the tremolo driver tube into an extra gain (boost) channel? Even so, it won't affect the original lineup as you are just adding an extra gain stage. I'd play it and see if I like it. You can always try a different line up and if you are not happy, go back to what you have now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Time to start shopping!



Yeah, talking about shopping. I can't seem to find our buddy Sanborn on EBAY. I looked under different search words. I have someone wanting a quad of his RFT EL34's. If you can locate him, please contact me. I will put this in a PM as well. Thanks.

PS-Why did you sell your Strat? A LP and an Strat covers a lot of ground.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you modify the preamp? Did you change the tremolo driver tube into an extra gain (boost) channel? Even so, it won't affect the original lineup as you are just adding an extra gain stage. I'd play it and see if I like it. You can always try a different line up and if you are not happy, go back to what you have now.



what do you suggest to pull a little more gain out of the amp?


----------



## RiverRatt

eBay My World - bmsanborn

I just never bonded with the strat - it had vintage frets and a maple neck so hard that the truss rod was useless. I couldn't get any relief in the neck with the truss rod completely loose, so the action was higher than I like. I thought about buying a new neck off eBay, but then I would have had more in it than I could sell it for. I may pick up another one if a good used one shows up. I have a friend who's a Fender dealer and he gets some good deals in from time to time. I've been thinking about a Tele, too. I might go that route. I really like the Schecter guitars I've seen, but I'm afraid they would just cover the same ground as the LP.

I still need to pick up a combo amp, too. I've been waiting for the new Vox AC15C1s to hit the market before I decide. I definitely want something EL84 and around 15-20 watts. I've always wanted a Vox, and I think I can afford one of these fairly easily.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitarmartin416 said:


> what do you suggest to pull a little more gain out of the amp?



If you want affordable, I like Ei tubes. They have a lot of the same characteristics of a Tekefunken smooth plate with a little more punch. Same for Matsushita slant-getters and Mullards. Similar sound but the Matsushitas have more punch and are a little darker IMO.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's one for you - a Magnavox Vintage Japan Matsushita that's really an Ei. Maybe you get the best of both worlds!

Vintage Magnavox Vintage Japan Matsushita 12AX7 A Tube - eBay (item 190373425650 end time Feb-22-10 15:33:03 PST)

If the link doesn't work, look for eBay item # 190373425650


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! He sure did post a bunch of pictures. When I sell tubes, I usually just use one pic to keep the cost down. I mean, he just made his listing charge go up for a MOR tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarmartin416 said:


> what do you suggest to pull a little more gain out of the amp?



There are two ways to get more gain. You alter the preamp circuits, or you get a stouter tube. Again, without a tester, you only have one option and that is to stick a tube in there and hope it is stouter.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

PM'd you...Serge



RiverRatt said:


> eBay My World - bmsanborn
> 
> I just never bonded with the strat - it had vintage frets and a maple neck so hard that the truss rod was useless. I couldn't get any relief in the neck with the truss rod completely loose, so the action was higher than I like. I thought about buying a new neck off eBay, but then I would have had more in it than I could sell it for. I may pick up another one if a good used one shows up. I have a friend who's a Fender dealer and he gets some good deals in from time to time. I've been thinking about a Tele, too. I might go that route. I really like the Schecter guitars I've seen, but I'm afraid they would just cover the same ground as the LP.
> 
> I still need to pick up a combo amp, too. I've been waiting for the new Vox AC15C1s to hit the market before I decide. I definitely want something EL84 and around 15-20 watts. I've always wanted a Vox, and I think I can afford one of these fairly easily.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> If you want affordable, I like Ei tubes. They have a lot of the same characteristics of a Tekefunken smooth plate with a little more punch. Same for Matsushita slant-getters and Mullards. Similar sound but the Matsushitas have more punch and are a little darker IMO.



The Ei is my current favourite valve, used it in the amp the other day at our rehersal and it was joy to hear, especially overdriven. I managed to grab another couple of NOS ones the other day of Ebay for about £23 delivered, they were labelled up as Hoges. they sound fantastic and are still relatively cheap, saw one go for $6.50 yesterday but the posatge was $13 dollars and the seller hadnt tested and had no returns so i figured id let that one pass, theres plenty more fish in the sea!


----------



## thud33

Ladies & Gents,
I am new to this thread, so please forgive me if someone already covered this... I have a Haze 15 (head), and am pretty pleased with its sound, but I'm always interested in tweaking. Now this may sound silly to some of you, but does anyone have an opinion on running JAN-Philips 5751 preamp tubes (~70% of 12AX7 gain) in this? My thought is that it would make the clean channel even smoother (which is a very nice, smooth, glassy sound to start with), and allow more power tube distortion to shine through on both channels by requiring the volume to be turned-up to get the same sound level. Thoughts? (and thanks).


----------



## solarburn

thud33 said:


> Ladies & Gents,
> I am new to this thread, so please forgive me if someone already covered this... I have a Haze 15 (head), and am pretty pleased with its sound, but I'm always interested in tweaking. Now this may sound silly to some of you, but does anyone have an opinion on running JAN-Philips 5751 preamp tubes (~70% of 12AX7 gain) in this? My thought is that it would make the clean channel even smoother (which is a very nice, smooth, glassy sound to start with), and allow more power tube distortion to shine through on both channels by requiring the volume to be turned-up to get the same sound level. Thoughts? (and thanks).



You already understand how having a lower gain tube may effect your amp. Just try it. Its the only way to really know. I have gone as low as an AT7 which has a gain factor of 60 to do some tone/gain shaping. I liked it for certain tones. Obviously if you go too low its going to swing too much away from getting a nice OD or gain. Trying to get the best of both clean and gain will always be a balancing act and a compromise one way or the other to some degree.

Now have at it and let us know how it turned out.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! He sure did post a bunch of pictures. When I sell tubes, I usually just use one pic to keep the cost down. I mean, he just made his listing charge go up for a MOR tube.



I'm getting tired of all the misinformation. "Made in Japan on Mullard equipment" and the tube "flashed when inserted into the test socket, the sign of a high-quality tube." Well, most Philips tubes are pretty high-quality but even the bad ones will flash. Sometimes we don't even know which tubes came from where, so how do we know that the equipment they were made on came from the Mullard factory? I think the Mullard equipment story came along because the Matsushitas bear a resemblance to Mullards, nothing more. Matsushita production was started at least as early as 1958 when Mullard was still cranking out a LOT of tubes, so why would they pull equipment from them? Plus, the Matsushitas look more like Valvo tubes made at the time than Mullards.

Then there's the fact that the tube isn't even a Matsushita and wasn't made in Japan. There is what appears to be a nice set of four Matsushita slant-getters on eBay right now, if anyone wants to look them up for comparison.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I'm getting tired of all the misinformation. "Made in Japan on Mullard equipment" and the tube "flashed when inserted into the test socket, the sign of a high-quality tube." Well, most Philips tubes are pretty high-quality but even the bad ones will flash. Sometimes we don't even know which tubes came from where, so how do we know that the equipment they were made on came from the Mullard factory? I think the Mullard equipment story came along because the Matsushitas bear a strong resemblance to Mullards, nothing more.
> 
> Then there's the fact that the tube isn't even a Matsushita and wasn't made in Japan. There is what appears to be a nice set of four Matsushita slant-getters on eBay right now, if anyone wants to look them up for comparison.



yeah spotted those 4, they look lovely!


----------



## ken361

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> yeah spotted those 4, they look lovely!



I got one from Marty, there pretty good and very close sounding to a Mullard. I have it in the V3 to finish my gain stage.


----------



## guitarmartin416

MartyStrat54 said:


> There are two ways to get more gain. You alter the preamp circuits, or you get a stouter tube. Again, without a tester, you only have one option and that is to stick a tube in there and hope it is stouter.



I do have a bonus now...My buddy I met that is helpin me with my mods has a killer tube tester....so I can actually test them now.


----------



## guitarmartin416

Spirit I'm gonna try to match you 4 tubes now that I can test them. At least I can tell you the values if none match.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

guitarmartin416 said:


> Spirit I'm gonna try to match you 4 tubes now that I can test them. At least I can tell you the values if none match.



You sir are a gentlemen, i really appreciate this. I will do my best to spread the good will.


----------



## guitarmartin416

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> You sir are a gentlemen, i really appreciate this. I will do my best to spread the good will.



I just like people to enjoy great tone and experiment....lets face it, we all have a bad disease!!!!!!!!


----------



## makae

Hi all.

OK, I have sold an old JCM 800 2205 for a lot of money and bought a home use only dsl 2000 100 watt. It has stock tubes in.

Now I've trawled through this thread before but never taken notes and so I'm hoping I don't get told to retrawel.

So can you please tell me the best alround pre-amp tube line up for this amp I mainly play brit rock, cult, hawkwind, killing joke, floyd etc, i do have loads of pedals to tune into particular sounds.

Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since you got a lot of money for the JCM800, I'd guess you are looking for old tubes?

A smooth plate Telefunken in V1 and a strong Raytheon USA black plate in V2 is the best combination I've heard. Matsushitas were made in Japan by the Philips company (the same company who made Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, etc.), sound great in V1, and IMO are the best value out there right now in old tubes. The good ones are the older ones with the 45˚ getter. They are a little darker and punchier than the Telefunken. RFT and Ei are also good candidates for V1. The Ei's are another good value - If you know what to look for, I've bought them on eBay for $5 to $10 each.

V3 and V4 aren't as important tone-wise. A strong Sylvania in V3 and just about any high-gain 12AX7 in V4 will sound good. You might even like your stock tubes just fine in these spots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

HEY RATT-MY EBAY DEAL OF THE DAY. I GOT 10 OF THEM FOR ABOUT $24 EACH. THEY ARE ALL MULLARDS NIB/NOS.

10 / NOS VINTAGE RCA 12AX7A ECC83 VACUUM TUBES - eBay (item 150413135046 end time Feb-17-10 07:32:32 PST)


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats, that's a great score. I wish I could afford to go after those big lots of tubes! Any idea what year they are? They look like long plates, but it's hard to tell in that photo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's what someone had asked him. I think they are late 70's tubes. The only reason I was interested in them was for the fact they are all Mullard made. RCA got out of the tube business very fast. I think by 77 they were done. They had six or seven UK and European manufacturers making them their replacements. Tungsram made a lot of tube for RCA. It's odd seeing the orange RCA logo and the little square of metal inside the tube. "That's an RCA?" "Well look at the label, it has to be."

Yeah, these RCA/Mullards are usually very stout and make a great V2 or a super V1 in say a 2203.

This auction ended at like 4 AM so I put down $289.99 and thought to myself, "Someone will go $35 each on these." Believe it or not, he had another lot of 10 of these and I didn't know about it until it was too late. Oh well, I have my eyes on some other tubes.

One last question. I was going to bid on a pair of chrome plates called "BELVUE." These were from an overseas seller. I didn't bid, because it almost sounds like some sort of counterfeit tube. You ever hear of "BELVUE?"


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope. That's a new one. I found the auction, though. They are the real deal.


----------



## guitarmartin416

don't let it slip away!!!!! I'm goin to grab that custom amp my buddy built today, and run that with my BB, now I can have Dwane Dickey and Warren all at once!!!!!


----------



## Procter2812

Scoreeee...

Just got a free brand new Brimar 

Guy i knew had it and just said it was old and didnt want it.

Never used and sounds greatt!! Thats 4 brimars i got now.. 1 mullard 1 tele and one mazda


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just think of what you used to have when I first met you? You've come a long ways grasshopper.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> There is what appears to be a nice set of four Matsushita slant-getters on eBay right now, if anyone wants to look them up for comparison.




I picked those up, just put a bid in for the original asking price and to my slight suprise and tbh honest more than a little horror i got them!  I didn't mean to buy them, honest I thought someone else would outbid me, stupid of me really but it appears no one else wanted them so i have 4 Matsushita slant-getters on the way, and once again my wallet is that much lighter. When will this stop!


----------



## MartyStrat54

It can lead to financial hardship. A drawer full of tubes and no food on the table.


----------



## makae

mr River Rat thanks for the info re a good pre amp tube line up. 


What is a STRONG black plate and how much will this cost me?

You mention knowing what to look for gets you tubes at what seem silly prices, is KNOWING a matter of experience or is there a noddy 101 guide to kNOWING.

Mr Spirit of the Age.

I'll take 2 of the Matsuiwhatsits of you when they arrive if you don't need the four. 

Are Lorenz tubes regarded well?

Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I picked those up, just put a bid in for the original asking price and to my slight suprise and tbh honest more than a little horror i got them!  I didn't mean to buy them, honest I thought someone else would outbid me, stupid of me really but it appears no one else wanted them so i have 4 Matsushita slant-getters on the way, and once again my wallet is that much lighter. When will this stop!



He he he.... I've had that happen several times. You aren't going to be disappointed with these, though. Just think of it like you got four Mullards for forty bucks. I'll guarantee that you'll like them. I actually like the ones I have better than Mullards. 

Procter, no offense, but you suck! I can't even find a Brimar that I can afford to buy, and you have them fall into your lap!  JK, congrats on the Brimar. When that happens to me, it's usually a Chinese tube.

Makae, I haven't seen a lot of Lorenz tubes. I've had some oddballs, like an ELL80, which is kinda like two EL84s in one bottle. I think their 9-pin power tubes are pretty good. I've never had one of their preamp tubes. I did have a Lorenz EZ81 that was a re-branded Mullard.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

I just got some tubes in today that I got off ebay. would this tube be a good candidate for V2 in my TSL100?


----------



## RiverRatt

Makae, I just meant a Raytheon that tests high. Test scores from different tube testers are nothing alike. On Marty's B&K tester, a tube that tests near 30 would be a good strong, high gain tube. On a Hickok 6000, that score would probably be around 1900-2000. If you need some help, post the auction you're looking at here and Marty is really good at interpreting the test scores. He's helped me out countless times.

Cuda, same deal as above. Without knowing what your tube tests at, it's hard to say how it will do in V2. There's nothing wrong with experimenting. Put it in and see if you notice an improvement in tone. Every tube I use in V1 sounds better with a good Raytheon in V2. I can't tell much about your Raytheon from the photo - does it have shiny black plates? 280 is the Raytheon factory code and by the second set of numbers it looks like it was made on the 26th week of 1957. If so, that's one of the earliest I've seen. Marty can probably tell us more.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

Thanks for the info Ratt. The plates are a shinny black. Here is the description from the auction "ONE RAYTHEON 12AX7 BLACK PLATE WITH 280/5726 CODE.NEVER USED TUBE,TESTED ON MY B & K DYNA-JET 606 TUBE TESTER.==85% GOOD". I got 2 tubes in this auction for $22.50 so I not out much if there bad. The other is a GE but most of the print is gone.


----------



## makae

Hello.

When I bought my dsl 100 I got it from an older bloke who showed me the receipt from when he bought it and he seemed totally genuine sort of guy.

I was told it had stock tubes so I just presumed it did.

Took the back off today and v1 v2 are unmarked tubes that look brand new. Hoping you may identify them form my shots. They have a square plate getter and 3 mica.

v3 and v4 are Jan Philips 12ax7wa 34167 USA 8726 AGW. It seems these are rated from my mini google search but are they better suited to other positions, are they wasted here, I read somewhere by Martystrat that EH tubes work fine in v3 v4 and maybe then I could use these elsewhere.
















The 4 power tubes are all svetlana, there's no sign of a wing c so I presume these are the original tubes Marshall put in. These worth upgrading??

Thanks for your help.


----------



## solarburn

makae said:


> Hello.
> 
> When I bought my dsl 100 I got it from an older bloke who showed me the receipt from when he bought it and he seemed totally genuine sort of guy.
> 
> I was told it had stock tubes so I just presumed it did.
> 
> Took the back off today and v1 v2 are unmarked tubes that look brand new. Hoping you may identify them form my shots. They have a square plate getter and 3 mica.
> 
> v3 and v4 are Jan Philips 12ax7wa 34167 USA 8726 AGW. It seems these are rated from my mini google search but are they better suited to other positions, are they wasted here, I read somewhere by Martystrat that EH tubes work fine in v3 v4 and maybe then I could use these elsewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 4 power tubes are all svetlana, there's no sign of a wing c so I presume these are the original tubes Marshall put in. These worth upgrading??
> 
> Thanks for your help.



The are Chinese 12AX7's.


----------



## solarburn

Makae,

If the Svetlanas are really Winged C's then use them. If however they are the current Svetlanas's I would want a less cutting/high mids/no lows and too much sizzle on top set of power tubes.

Winged C's are a solid power tube that really sound great in a DSL.


----------



## Procter2812

One big thing i have noticed is...

All CP pre-amp tubes which try to copy NOS mullards etc all have smaller plates than normal.

Every CP pre-amp tube i have had has tiny plates compared to my NOS lot.


Why??


----------



## RiverRatt

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's because smaller plates tend to be less noisy and microphonic, so that even though they are poorly made they won't howl like a banshee. How many people who buy those things have even seen a real Mullard and know the difference between 13mm and 17mm plates?

There's really no right way or wrong way to build a 12AX7 as long as it operates inside the specified set of parameters. You could make one the size of an EL84 as long as it was within specs.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it's because smaller plates tend to be less noisy and microphonic, so that even though they are poorly made they won't howl like a banshee. How many people who buy those things have even seen a real Mullard and know the difference between 13mm and 17mm plates?
> 
> There's really no right way or wrong way to build a 12AX7 as long as it operates inside the specified set of parameters. You could make one the size of an EL84 as long as it was within specs.



Yeah i know what you mean... why cant they build them like they say they are going to build them. (reissues)

Iv got quite a wide range of pre-amp tubes now eg.

harma,JJ,Shuguang, EH,Sovtek(GT),Brimar,Mazda,Telefunken,Mullard.

All the CP tubes' plates are smaller and iv had more CP go microphonic than NOS...

If you look at the bottle sizes for the CP and NOS.. the CP are a lot fatter and the NOS very tall/slim.


----------



## RiverRatt

All 12AX7s are microphonic to some degree, and some get worse as they are used. A really high percentage of CP tubes are weeded out before they even leave the factory. Out of that, probably 10% to 20% of the "good" tubes will fail straight out of the box. That's why you buy CP tubes from a dealer who tests them before sending them out. Still, you're going to get a bad one every now and then, and more will go bad after a few hours, especially if you use them in a harsh environment such as a loud combo amp.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> All 12AX7s are microphonic to some degree, and some get worse as they are used. A really high percentage of CP tubes are weeded out before they even leave the factory. Out of that, probably 10% to 20% of the "good" tubes will fail straight out of the box. That's why you buy CP tubes from a dealer who tests them before sending them out. Still, you're going to get a bad one every now and then, and more will go bad after a few hours, especially if you use them in a harsh environment such as a loud combo amp.



Well yeah... but my brand new JCM800 had 2 out of 3 microphonic!!... and all my NOS have survived +35 years of god knows what abuse from postage etc lol

Im not against CP valves.. just think some could be better. I use a Mullard in V1 Brimar in V2 and JJ in V3

In my TSL thats loaded with CP tubes... it doesnt deserve NOS after all the abuse its given me haha


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you have read some of my commentary, I have stated that amp manufacturer's are responsible for dictating how tubes will be made. The amp manufactures are the main buyers and they want their tubes, "now." Because of this, the quality control has not really changed in the past three years. Peavey, Mesa, Marshall and the others have figured out that it is easier to lower the B+ on the amp and then design the rest of the circuits around this lower B+. Most of the current Peavey's run at 400VDC. Marshall has gone down and is running in the 420 range with it's newer amps.

Tube Tech tried to make a real tube again and the economics of it all kicked them in the teeth. The facts are, most tube users are happy with what they can buy right now. Five years ago, I was thinking that in 2010, the CP tubes would be really good. I was wrong. They are the same as a 2007 tube. 

The Russian's, Slovakian's and the Chinese are always going to use mental marketing stategies on us American's. The two most overworked are, "7025" and "STR." There is a big difference between a 1959 RCA 7025 and a TAD 7025. Hey, the TAD is not bad, but it's not an RCA. Other tubes labeled 7025 are absolutely horrible. STR used to designate a special tube that was custom ordered. Now you see it on a lot of the EL34's and 6L6's.

There are a lot of things that you have to watch out for. Some of the CP tubes use thicker pin wire. This stretches out the socket. If you go back with an NOS tube, it is loose and you are "stuck" with using a CP tube. I bought some 7868 power tubes and I couldn't get them to even go in. The Tube Depot told me to, "gently force" the tubes in. I told myself in the drawer they go. I bought some RCA 7868's and I used them. I wasn't about to ruin the sockets in a vintage amp using CP tubes.

The other thing is size as has been mentioned. For some reason, the tube makers have decided to go against the specs of certain tubes and make the glass fatter. This results in power tubes that won't fit in certain amps and RF shields that won't go over the new CP tube. Why they did this is beyond me?

The sad fact Procter, is that you are never going to see 12AX7's being made like they used to. I've brought this up many times in prior posts and the short of it is that it has to do with equipment, a skilled labor force, pride and fierce (healthy) competition. We were a great country in 1955. We made great tubes. The same can be said for all other tube makers back then.

I'm just amazed at how many NOS tubes have been sold in the past 10 years. What's more amazing is that people are still finding stashes of NIB tubes. How long this will continue, I don't know. Certain tubes are already getting scarce and demanding triple the money from just four months ago. There's no doubt that it will come to a slow, gradual halt. By that point, I won't care anymore.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you have read some of my commentary, I have stated that amp manufacturer's are responsible for dictating how tubes will be made. The amp manufactures are the main buyers and they want their tubes, "now." Because of this, the quality control has not really changed in the past three years. Peavey, Mesa, Marshall and the others have figured out that it is easier to lower the B+ on the amp and then design the rest of the circuits around this lower B+. Most of the current Peavey's run at 400VDC. Marshall has gone down and is running in the 420 range with it's newer amps.
> 
> Tube Tech tried to make a real tube again and the economics of it all kicked them in the teeth. The facts are, most tube users are happy with what they can buy right now. Five years ago, I was thinking that in 2010, the CP tubes would be really good. I was wrong. They are the same as a 2007 tube.
> 
> The Russian's, Slovakian's and the Chinese are always going to use mental marketing stategies on us American's. The two most overworked are, "7025" and "STR." There is a big difference between a 1959 RCA 7025 and a TAD 7025. Hey, the TAD is not bad, but it's not an RCA. Other tubes labeled 7025 are absolutely horrible. STR used to designate a special tube that was custom ordered. Now you see it on a lot of the EL34's and 6L6's.
> 
> There are a lot of things that you have to watch out for. Some of the CP tubes use thicker pin wire. This stretches out the socket. If you go back with an NOS tube, it is loose and you are "stuck" with using a CP tube. I bought some 7868 power tubes and I couldn't get them to even go in. The Tube Depot told me to, "gently force" the tubes in. I told myself in the drawer they go. I bought some RCA 7868's and I used them. I wasn't about to ruin the sockets in a vintage amp using CP tubes.
> 
> The other thing is size as has been mentioned. For some reason, the tube makers have decided to go against the specs of certain tubes and make the glass fatter. This results in power tubes that won't fit in certain amps and RF shields that won't go over the new CP tube. Why they did this is beyond me?
> 
> The sad fact Procter, is that you are never going to see 12AX7's being made like they used to. I've brought this up many times in prior posts and the short of it is that it has to do with equipment, a skilled labor force, pride and fierce (healthy) competition. We were a great country in 1955. We made great tubes. The same can be said for all other tube makers back then.
> 
> I'm just amazed at how many NOS tubes have been sold in the past 10 years. What's more amazing is that people are still finding stashes of NIB tubes. How long this will continue, I don't know. Certain tubes are already getting scarce and demanding triple the money from just four months ago. There's no doubt that it will come to a slow, gradual halt. By that point, I won't care anymore.



Totally agree!

I bought a harma 7025 'STR' from Watford Valves and it was worst sounding valve i have used yet! It may have been good for some super hard punk rock/grunge but there was no dynamics/tone to it. Sounded like grit.

Its annying that the Amp manufacturers are going along with lowering the B+... They should be making better valves!

Iv got my eye on a couple unlabeled valves which look very much like a brimar. the 12ax7 logo and the plates look like one.

Im just gonna stock up on NOS... get the occasional bargain 

Saying that i do like CP power tubes. I have experience with 3 sets. Winged =C= which are my fav.. JJ E34L and EH which were average.

The Winged =C= seem really well made and iv had 3 years out of one set. Regularly played one 3/4 times week for 2/3 hours at a time.

Im gonna get a 50 watt amp next and buy NOS power tubes just to see what they are like...

Anyway hows your Twister goin???


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh my Twister? Well I don't know if you caught what I had posted over in the Power Tube thread, but it wasn't pretty. After I bought it and it arrived, I got it out of the shipping box and plugged it in. It sounded like crap. I tried a few things, no difference. I put in NOS power and preamp tubes. Still sounded cold. I got a hold of Jade the owner/builder at Twister. After some small talk, he tells me that this particular amp had been dropped "on several occasions." I also found out that I was the sixth owner of the amp and it was sold in the summer of 2008. That averages out to a new owner every four months. In reality, some of the owners kept it between three days and two weeks. Somewhere down the line it had become a shitty sounding amp. 

With that in mind, I made a comment to Jade. I told him, "I wouldn't want this amp floating around representing my company." He took that to heart and told me to send him the amp. He said he would do any necessary repairs and send it back on his dime. Well, it's been two weeks and I haven't heard from him yet. So once I do and I get the amp back, you can bet you will be hearing about it.


----------



## Fixr1984

Can some one tell me if these are a good deal? I dont know what the test results mean, are they high gain? I'm looking at this as a V2 tube for a TSL60

PAIR! Black Plate! RAYTHEON JRP 12AX7(see test results) - eBay (item 170445662497 end time Feb-19-10 17:32:12 PST)


----------



## racko7566

If no one answers you, they are probably bidding on them as I type.


----------



## Fixr1984

Thats what I was thinking, I dont want to swipe them from anyone if they were already planning of biding, and I hope that
I didnt give someone a link to a good deal that I might miss out on


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I frown on tube sniping between our fellow forum members. If a link is posted because someone wants an opinion, I give them just that and leave the tubes to them. However, some people will take a look and decide to try and grab them. It's just a risk you take. The smart members send me a PM and then they don't have to worry about getting jumped on.


----------



## racko7566

Nice job Marty. I was cracking at you Fixr1984, guys here seem to be honest and ( downright good people ) and speaking for myself I would never jump on any ones tube wagon and bid against them. Shame if you do... slap..slap..powder..slap......................................................slaPPP


----------



## RiverRatt

If I post a link to an auction here, I'm probably hoping that someone else *will* snag them before I do. So who ended up with the JRPs?


----------



## Fixr1984

:


racko7566 said:


> Nice job Marty. I was cracking at you Fixr1984, guys here seem to be honest and ( downright good people ) and speaking for myself I would never jump on any ones tube wagon and bid against them. Shame if you do... slap..slap..powder..slap......................................................slaPPP



I didnt mean to make it sound like I didnt trust anyone here. I was mainly just saying that If they were a good buy then I would try for them and if anyone else here was biding on them I would walk away.

Actually now that I re read my post it does kinda seem mistrustful. Sorry if anyone took offense.

Now back to the tube talk. If anyone happens to come across a good deal on a high gain Raytheon black plate I might be interested.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, what about these? Would they work for Fixr? I've been semi-watching them for awhile. 

2 - 12ax7A Raytheon Baldwin Tubes Black Pl *Match* - eBay (item 170443799648 end time Mar-10-10 14:15:29 PST)

Edit: The eBay links were working fine a couple of days ago but the're screwed up again. Look for this item number: 170443799648


----------



## racko7566

No, this is my fault. to the OP yes that seems to be a good deal for blackplates. Im sorry I was playing around and meant no disrespect.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, what about these? Would they work for Fixr? I've been semi-watching them for awhile.
> 
> 2 - 12ax7A Raytheon Baldwin Tubes Black Pl *Match* - eBay (item 170443799648 end time Mar-10-10 14:15:29 PST)
> 
> Edit: The eBay links were working fine a couple of days ago but the're screwed up again. Look for this item number: 170443799648



They are slightly above average. As far as a V2 goes, you would like to see 2400-2450 or better. These would work as a V2, they just wouldn't be a high gain tube. We have swapped tubes so much, I forgot what it was like when I ran a BP in V1? I think we all have determined that they are the V2 tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Test this link and see if it works. I think I've found a way to make the auction links work again (same Raytheon black plates as above).

2 - 12ax7A Raytheon Baldwin Tubes Black Pl *Match* - eBay (item 170443799648 end time Mar-10-10 14:15:29 PST)

or this one:

2 X RAYTHEON BLACK PLATE & SQUARE GETTER 12AX7 TUBE! - eBay (item 120441207472 end time Feb-22-10 08:31:19 PST)

Edit: OK, the second one seems to work (note that I'm not recommending that second set of tubes - they look weak). It won't work with auction links copied from items you are watching - the URL is different, but it should work with an auction you've searched for. When you copy the auction URL from the address bar, only copy the part of the URL up to and including the item number. Click on the link above and you can see what I mean. The part you need to cut off begins with QQcmdZ


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah the second one works. Boy those are some crappy tubes. Neither one makes the minimum on one side. I always wondered why someone in China would be selling off USA tubes. This goes with my prior commentary. If the tubes are good, they are snatched up by rich orientals with $20,000 MacIntosh amps at home. Of course, these guys run Telefunken's and top notch power tubes, but there is still a big market for USA tubes. Anyway, I just find it odd.


----------



## RiverRatt

Are they even Raytheons? Something about them makes me think of the old Sylvania black plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, no matter what they are, they are worn out on one side. Yes, with that red print, they could be old JAN BP Sylvania's (that some seller's want $200 for.).


----------



## Procter2812

just won a no named NOS tube... looks to be a brimar judging by the 12AX7 label.. also looks like a long plate but not 100% sure.

Its NOS and not used and was £3.20!

I also just missed out on another Mazda for 5.50.. but not too fussed about that one!


----------



## MartyStrat54

How many tubes have you bought? You're a regular tube shanker.


----------



## Procter2812

ahh now iv got about 8 NOS tubes but sold three a while ago.

im catching you up marty! haha


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> ahh now iv got about 8 NOS tubes but sold three a while ago.
> 
> im catching you up marty! haha




Hey Procter are you watching/bidding on the Zaerix 12ax7 on at the mo (finishes in about 15-20 mins) it looks to be a NOS philips tube, and is going to go for around a tenner.

ZAERIX 12AX7 ECC83 Vintage Radio Valve NOS on eBay (end time 22-Feb-10 20:54:32 GMT)


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Hey Procter are you watching/bidding on the Zaerix 12ax7 on at the mo (finishes in about 15-20 mins) it looks to be a NOS philips tube, and is going to go for around a tenner.
> 
> ZAERIX 12AX7 ECC83 Vintage Radio Valve NOS on eBay (end time 22-Feb-10 20:54:32 GMT)



haha yeah im watching it. I was gonna bid on it... its a made in india philips valve... bet its a nice valve.

Iv just spent 150 on this new cab im building.. so not too many NOS tubes for me haha

You bidding on it??


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> haha yeah im watching it. I was gonna bid on it... its a made in india philips valve... bet its a nice valve.
> 
> Iv just spent 150 on this new cab im building.. so not too many NOS tubes for me haha
> 
> You bidding on it??




No ive got 4 MATSUSHITA coming my way so i have dont really need another philips just now. Im on the hunt for Ei but they are going for to much money for me at the moment.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> No ive got 4 MATSUSHITA coming my way so i have dont really need another philips just now. Im on the hunt for Ei but they are going for to much money for me at the moment.



ahh i see. those matsushitas are supposed to be real nice.

Yeah Ei's are nice. An amp at my local shop had em in ( a 99 DSL) and it sounded nicer than my at the time TSL.

I havent seen any on UK ebay at min. Im not a risky buyer... cant be bothered buying from abroad.. hassle of Airmail etc


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Now this is cool, look at your post count in your last post


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Now this is cool, look at your post count in your last post



666  that only happens once!

think its time to put on beezleboss by tenacious d


----------



## Procter2812

Ahh gutted... it went for £8!!

Thats a bargain for a New NOS valve... especially a philips!


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> No ive got 4 MATSUSHITA coming my way so i have dont really need another philips just now. Im on the hunt for Ei but they are going for to much money for me at the moment.



Keep your eyes open and you'll find some Ei's that are affordable (they are Philips tubes, too). I bought a pair for $15 that the seller thought were MIJ Westinghouse tubes. They were good, strong Ei's. Just look for the smooth plates. There's one on eBay right now that the seller has no idea about. I've been making fun of it from time to time.

Vintage Magnavox Vintage Japan Matsushita 12AX7 A Tube - eBay (item 190373425650 end time Feb-22-10 15:33:03 PST)


----------



## RiverRatt

Whew! I finally got some decent Raytheons. A couple of JRPs for $33. They both tested at 57/54 on a TV-7. That's cheaper than CP tubes. Can't wait to get those bad boys!

I about shit myself last night. I fumbled a Mullard. It bounced off a Les Paul and a chair leg before it hit the ground.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RATT-I left you a PM. Go over to the Power Tube Thread. Idiot alert.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Whew! I finally got some decent Raytheons. A couple of JRPs for $33. They both tested at 57/54 on a TV-7. That's cheaper than CP tubes. Can't wait to get those bad boys!
> 
> I about shit myself last night. I fumbled a Mullard. It bounced off a Les Paul and a chair leg before it hit the ground.




Congrats on the Raytheons! Ive also dropped valves once or twice in fact i dropped my NOS Raytheon blackplate that i got for $9 about 6 mins after getting it out of the box! Luckily it was fine


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Im only waiting on my matsushitas to arrive now, just had 2 more Ei smooth plates and another Bel valve arrive (along with 4 1979 russain El84s). So when they come i think im done collecting the bloody things for a while. I have enough to last me several lifetimes already so unless i see a real bargain comes along (i will keep looking of course, doesnt hurt to look does it  ) thats my lot. Thanks to all for your help, I now know a lot more about who, what , when, where and why when it comes to the subject of pre amp valves, its been a real buzz hunting htese down from all over the world and rolling them to find the best possible sound for me. So now i just have to continue enjoying them in the manner in which they were intended 

Heres my little collection, not bad i think you will agree, minus the ones in the amp already of course.






and heres the junk ( joking )


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Im only waiting on my matsushitas to arrive now, just had 2 more Ei smooth plates and another Bel valve arrive (along with 4 1979 russain El84s). So when they come i think im done collecting the bloody things for a while. I have enough to last me several lifetimes already so unless i see a real bargain comes along (i will keep looking of course, doesnt hurt to look does it  ) thats my lot. Thanks to all for your help, I now know a lot more about who, what , when, where and why when it comes to the subject of pre amp valves, its been a real buzz hunting htese down from all over the world and rolling them to find the best possible sound for me. So now i just have to continue enjoying them in the manner in which they were intended
> 
> Heres my little collection, not bad i think you will agree, minus the ones in the amp already of course.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> and heres the junk ( joking )



Youve got a nicee collection there!

I see youve got a Brimar in the box with the printed label on and the blue dot.

I got one in exactly the same box off ebay.. maybe the same seller.

I have a Blackburn coded Brimar... it the same as a Yellow Plate mullard and has a black top 

Iv got one more coming today... need to go pick it up from royal mail...

Oh yeah i live fairly close to the Blackburn mullard factory.. might ring the companies there to see if they still have any old valves in storage


----------



## Vince

Procter2812 said:


> Oh yeah i live fairly close to the Blackburn mullard factory.. might ring the companies there to see if they still have any old valves in storage




I bet THAT'S never been done before!


----------



## Procter2812

Vince said:


> I bet THAT'S never been done before!



haha worth a try

Anyway news on this NOS 12ax7...

I got it and its one inever seen before... 

Its got ribbed plates with big holes in on both sides of the plate... also has a support bar on each side to hold up the micas and the two supports for the getter.

Anyone?


----------



## Procter2812

Got it... Its a tungsram.. 
Anybody used them?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Got it... Its a tungsram..
> Anybody used them?



That was the £3.20 one wasnt it? I was following that one, just didnt fancy it in the end, maybe the bug is not biting like it used to. I have been buying or at least looking for more than one valve at a time as sometimes you end up paying more for shipping than the Valve, well espacially from overseas.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had some Tungsrams that were freaky strong. Marty tested them and the scores were almost double the minimum good score. I pulled them from a Laney AOR head, where they were noisy and harsh. They sounded okay in the Marshall but were still a little noisy there, too. I ended up selling them on eBay with no regrets. YMMV.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> That was the £3.20 one wasnt it? I was following that one, just didnt fancy it in the end, maybe the bug is not biting like it used to. I have been buying or at least looking for more than one valve at a time as sometimes you end up paying more for shipping than the Valve, well espacially from overseas.



Exactly yeah..

Anyway...

I really like it  Sounds great in V2... High gain but smooth.. and not noisy.

Il have to try it out tomorrow when nobodys in...


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> I had some Tungsrams that were freaky strong. Marty tested them and the scores were almost double the minimum good score. I pulled them from a Laney AOR head, where they were noisy and harsh. They sounded okay in the Marshall but were still a little noisy there, too. I ended up selling them on eBay with no regrets. YMMV.



Ahh cool... yeah this one aint too noisy as of yett... i think it might get noisy when i crank it right up. The JJ's sounded good in V2.

But when you can definitely tell they are a dark/dull tube in V1!


----------



## MartyStrat54

SPIRIT-If there were no more NOS tubes, you would have enough to last you past 2025. That's a nice mess of tubes and yes, I recognize the writing on the ends of the tube boxes as sellers that I have dealt with.

Now you can take the OE Marshall tubes and use them for Christmas tree ornaments.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Procter2812 said:


> Got it... Its a tungsram..
> Anybody used them?



Does it have the small metal square with a stamped number on it inside the tube? The Tungsram are known to be weak in the bottom. Use extra care putting them in and especially pulling them out. They can crack around the pins. The same holds true for some runs of RFT's. This applies to all of their 12XX7 tubes.

Tubemonger has Tungsram's for $60 to $70 each. Wow! Those prices have jumped in four months. I think I see a trend.

KCA wants $80!!! The thing is, you can get an RCA and they both sound about the same.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> Does it have the small metal square with a stamped number on it inside the tube? The Tungsram are known to be weak in the bottom. Use extra care putting them in and especially pulling them out. They can crack around the pins. The same holds true for some runs of RFT's. This applies to all of their 12XX7 tubes.
> 
> Tubemonger has Tungsram's for $60 to $70 each. Wow! Those prices have jumped in four months. I think I see a trend.
> 
> KCA wants $80!!! The thing is, you can get an RCA and they both sound about the same.



Yeah it has the metal square holding up a getter post with 74 on it 

Might stick it on ebay when more come up


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> SPIRIT-If there were no more NOS tubes, you would have enough to last you past 2025. That's a nice mess of tubes and yes, I recognize the writing on the ends of the tube boxes as sellers that I have dealt with.
> 
> Now you can take the OE Marshall tubes and use them for Christmas tree ornaments.



Only 2025  id better get a few more in before the prices go through the roof. Im not joking either, in the short time ive been trawling the web for bargins i have noticed the prices getting higher. Now ive started I can see myself always keeping an eye out for the occasional bargain, but like i said even in my short time of hunting for them they are getting harder to find.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Only 2025  id better get a few more in before the prices go through the roof. Im not joking either, in the short time ive been trawling the web for bargins i have noticed the prices getting higher. Now ive started I can see myself always keeping an eye out for the occasional bargain, but like i said even in my short time of hunting for them they are getting harder to find.



And thats why im going for the no named ECC83/12AX7's. Iv seen two go for under £5! and the chances are if there NOS they are a decent valve.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tubemonger has Tungsram's for $60 to $70 each. Wow! Those prices have jumped in four months. I think I see a trend.
> 
> KCA wants $80!!! The thing is, you can get an RCA and they both sound about the same.



And those Raytheon JRPs I got are going for over $100 a tube in the online shops. I've never paid more than $45 for a tube, and that was the RFT EL34s I got last year. I guess someone is buying them though, or they wouldn't be listed at that price.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> And thats why im going for the no named ECC83/12AX7's. Iv seen two go for under £5! and the chances are if there NOS they are a decent valve.



Hmm then i wonder what these could be?  I have asked the seller for pics of the actual valves, or any more info but had no reply  They may be pure gold or they might not.

2 unused old stock boxed ecc83 / 12ax7a valves on eBay (end time 28-Feb-10 19:20:28 GMT)


----------



## RiverRatt

They could be anything. Haltron didn't manufacture tubes, they just re-labeled other tubes. You may not even be able to tell what they are after you open the box.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> They could be anything. Haltron didn't manufacture tubes, they just re-labeled other tubes. You may not even be able to tell what they are after you open the box.



exactly, i cant see why the seller is secretive about the mysterious valves that lay within. Ive asked them twice for any more info and got sweet f.a. in reply, so i aint going there, but looks like some people are, beats me why though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some go for a lot of money...

Haltron (UK), Trigon (UK) and Ultron (germany) ECC83 tubes info request. - diyAudio

This one is a Brimar.

eBay.ie: ECF80/CV5215 HALTRON NOS BOXED (item 310087990725 end time 23-Mar-10 10:10:52 GMT)


----------



## RiverRatt

Guys, take a look at these. Here's some really nice looking Matsushitas. That center tube is a Realistic Lifetime tube. If you buy it and it's no good, you can take it to Radio Shack and get a shiny new Russian or Chinese 12AX7! Of course you have no idea if this set is good or not - testing is not even mentioned - but these are the ones to be on the lookout for should some that test good show up. 45° getter, black flash, probably late '50s to early '60s.

3 USED Vintage Japanese 12AX7's UNIQUE only $15 Min NR - eBay (item 190375348943 end time Feb-25-10 19:03:37 PST)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Some go for a lot of money...
> 
> Haltron (UK), Trigon (UK) and Ultron (germany) ECC83 tubes info request. - diyAudio
> 
> This one is a Brimar.
> 
> eBay.ie: ECF80/CV5215 HALTRON NOS BOXED (item 310087990725 end time 23-Mar-10 10:10:52 GMT)



Hi Marty. You got any room for a female over here? I was doing some reading on this thread. It's huge! What I would like to know is what is the best line up for my DSL? I have RFT power tubes in it right now. It is a 100 watt model. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Lisa. Welcome to the thread. What preamp tubes do you have in it now?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

They are all old RCA's. My brother got them for me. He said they were made in the Fifties. Does that help?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, those are pretty good. A lot better than what most people use.

If you re interested in the best glass for the DSL, I would tell you that most of the members on this thread use UK or European 12AX7's, especially for V1.

Do you know your tube line up V1, V2, V3 and V4? V1 and V2 are the most important. I would go with a Mullard, Amprex or Telefunken in V1. Then you should run a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Your RCA's would work fine in V3 and V4.

There are other options. You could just get a real good tube for V1 and use RCA's in the other slots. However, since you have the RCA's, I think you would really like the tone change with a good UK or European tube in V1 and the High Gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2.

If you need me to elaborate on any of this, don't hesitate to ask.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, those are pretty good. A lot better than what most people use.
> 
> If you re interested in the best glass for the DSL, I would tell you that most of the members on this thread use UK or European 12AX7's, especially for V1.
> 
> Do you know your tube line up V1, V2, V3 and V4? V1 and V2 are the most important. I would go with a Mullard, Amprex or Telefunken in V1. Then you should run a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Your RCA's would work fine in V3 and V4.
> 
> There are other options. You could just get a real good tube for V1 and use RCA's in the other slots. However, since you have the RCA's, I think you would really like the tone change with a good UK or European tube in V1 and the High Gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2.
> 
> If you need me to elaborate on any of this, don't hesitate to ask.



Gee, that's some fast answers. Yes I know the tube positions. I've been around this amp for a long time. V1 has the shield on it and V4 is the PI tube. I don't know what the tubes actually do except amplify the sound.

So if I were to get a couple of these tubes, it would be nirvana huh? Why do they call the tubes black plates? I'm really interested in all of this. From what I read, some of the guys have a fever.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the tube line up on a DSL is:

V1-Primary Gain Stages
V2-Secondary Gain Stages
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter 

If you notice V1 and V2 deal with taking the signal and giving it additional boost or amplification. V1 sets the tone of the amp and that is why it is very important. V2 takes the signal from V1 and depending on what channel you are using, it adds additional gain to the signal. V3 and V4 play a role in how your amp will sound. We have found that using a solid high gain tube in these slots helps open the amp up, especially at higher volume levels.

That is why I say your RCA's will work great in V3 and V4.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You really know your stuff. It's late and I really need to get off of this computer, but I will talk to you again and hopefully I will be able to make a decision on some better tubes. Thanks again for all the personal help.

LISA


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You really know your stuff. It's late and I really need to get off of this computer, but I will talk to you again and hopefully I will be able to make a decision on some better tubes. Thanks again for all the personal help.
> 
> LISA



Well it is late and I forgot to answer your question about black plates. The name comes from the color of the coating used on the metal plates inside of a tube. The two common colors are black and gray. Gray is the most common and the black plates have a different tone to them. They have a fat, big mid's sound. The Raytheon's are the best, although RCA made them as well. The Raytheon BP (as we call them) mixes incredibly with a wide variety of V1 tubes.

Can you use a different tube in V2 than a Raytheon BP? Sure. If you get to be a tube roller, you will find yourself wanting a wide variety of tubes to try. The main thing is to get a solid V3 and V4 in the amp. Then it is a lot easier to roll tubes in V1 and V2. After a while you will get the hang of it and you will want to get that 2204 retubed.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I've got to jet, but I came on the forum for a while. Thanks for the info about the black plates. My older brother got me around tube amps when I was like 15, so I have been around tubes for quite some time. I'm not completely inexperienced about them, but I do want to learn more about what they do and how to pick certain tubes that will enhance my tone.

I would like to hear about what amp you run and your favorite tubes that you use. I see that some of you like Brimars. How do they sound? I'm not familiar with that brand. What's the difference between a Brimar and a Telefunken? Is a Mullard close to a Brimar. They are both made in the UK, right?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You really know your stuff. It's late and I really need to get off of this computer, but I will talk to you again and hopefully I will be able to make a decision on some better tubes. Thanks again for all the personal help.
> 
> LISA



Hi Rockin_Lisa! Thought I'd give you a look at what I run in my preamp section of the DSL50.

V1-Telefunken/Realistic(Matsushita)
V2-Raytheon Black Plate
V3-Electrohome
V4/PI-Mullard

As you can see I use NOS tubes more than Current Production(CP)preamp tubes. If I was to use CP preamp tubes I would probably use Tung Sol and Mullard RI's.

V1-Tung Sol
V2-Mullard/Tung Sol
V3-Mullard
PI-Tung Sol

Marty has some great ideas as well as River Ratt for combinations in a DSL. I actually buy my NOS tubes from Marty and we three send each other tubes to demo as well just to get a taste. There are many contributers here that will share their findings. Its a great thread and we enjoy rolling a few tubes here and there.

Welcome aboard and I look forward to hearing what you like and what works for you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Speaking of, I'm really digging the Matsushita in V1 with that über strong RFT you sent me in V2. It's a different sound from the Tele/Raytheon combo - a good bit darker, actually. Sounds great on Lead 2, and I don't even like the red channel that much. Got my JRP's in the mail today. I'll know how they sound in about 3 1/2 hours.

Did you ever get your amp sorted out?

BTW, welcome aboard Lisa! Just a warning - tube rolling is an addiction.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of, I'm really digging the Matsushita in V1 with that über strong RFT you sent me in V2. It's a different sound from the Tele/Raytheon combo - a good bit darker, actually. Sounds great on Lead 2, and I don't even like the red channel that much. Got my JRP's in the mail today. I'll know how they sound in about 3 1/2 hours.
> 
> Did you ever get your amp sorted out?
> 
> BTW, welcome aboard Lisa! Just a warning - tube rolling is an addiction.



Oh cool. Look forward to hearing about the JRP's. Not yet on the Marshall. Hopefully soon. 

I rolled your tubes in my Monza and I agree with you in that they sound like a Telefunken with more bite. Pretty cool. Especially at the current price. I put them in the mail today. Thanks for letting me sample them. Would have liked to have done it in the DSL but I don't know when it will be back and I had them long enough.

Right now I have a BP in V1 and a Matsushita in V2 on the Monza. I'm running the RFT's in it and then I'm running those Roosky EL84's in the NT. Those are simply toneful. 1967 6P14Ps. Would love to have a few more...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh cool. Look forward to hearing about the JRP's. Not yet on the Marshall. Hopefully soon.
> 
> I rolled your tubes in my Monza and I agree with you in that they sound like a Telefunken with more bite. Pretty cool. Especially at the current price. I put them in the mail today. Thanks for letting me sample them. Would have liked to have done it in the DSL but I don't know when it will be back and I had them long enough.
> 
> Right now I have a BP in V1 and a Matsushita in V2 on the Monza. I'm running the RFT's in it and then I'm running those Roosky EL84's in the NT. Those are simply toneful. 1967 6P14Ps. Would love to have a few more...



Check out the power amp tube thread. DeLorean just posted about those Red Rockers today.


----------



## MartyStrat54

My only problem is that my JRP's are super high gain tubes. I sent one to Josh when he was trying to get the BZ7 to work. He had the JRP (35-35) in V1 and a 12BZ7 in V2. Ah, his amp ignited and he had lift off. Needless to say, the BZ7 experiment was a flop (an extra long plate tube in a combo...forget about it). Josh sent the ICBM back and due to an arms agreement, it is still in it's box awaiting future orders.

I would love to get some JRP's that are solid V2 tubes. I don't know if I would like them in V1. You know we really have gotten spoiled. Maybe I will start doing a little more V2 rolling with all of these other tubes. What can it hurt?


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, you weren't kidding. These JRPs are powerful. For me, they were a little too bright with the Tele in V1, but great with a darker tube like an RFT or Matsushita. Still got some more combinations to try, but my ears are ringing too bad tonight. If you get around to it, try a JRP in V1 AND V2 and step back about 10 feet. Best pinch harmonics I've gotten out of this amp so far.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Man, you weren't kidding. These JRPs are powerful. For me, they were a little too bright with the Tele in V1, but great with a darker tube like an RFT or Matsushita. Still got some more combinations to try, but my ears are ringing too bad tonight. If you get around to it, try a JRP in V1 AND V2 and step back about 10 feet. Best pinch harmonics I've gotten out of this amp so far.



So you are finding usable combinations with them...

I remember when Marty and Josh were talking about the one Josh tried. It was too much. Sounds like with certain other tubes they may work out. Like how you're mixing the characters of each tube to get what you need. Nice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You could probably run a V2 @ 35-35 with a 5751 in V1. This might be an interesting combo. If I remember it right, I did try this when I first got the original ICBM. I remember putting all BP's in the amp too. Oh, those were the days. Hell, all that tube rolling data is lost and I don't know if it will ever be recovered. I have hell finding stuff two pages back.

Anyways, these powerhouse V2's should be treated differently. Even though you use a lower gain tube in front of it. A high gainer still has the capabilities of distorting the circuit it is in. As Jon Wilder said, "There is a limit on these sort of things."


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn't you mention something about Jon saying not to use a really high gain tube as a PI? How hot is too hot? Am I taking risks if I throw a gain monster in there, or is it just going to distort in a bad way?


----------



## Cudacrazy72

Hey Marty...I just sent you a PM.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty, pm'd you re: EL84Ms


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Didn't you mention something about Jon saying not to use a really high gain tube as a PI? How hot is too hot? Am I taking risks if I throw a gain monster in there, or is it just going to distort in a bad way?



I think 35-35 is okay with the PI and maybe a little higher. I wouldn't go with much over that. I was using a Sylvania that was a 38-37 and I haven't had a problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cudacrazy72 said:


> Hey Marty...I just sent you a PM.



MSG sent to you. Let me know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Marty, pm'd you re: EL84Ms



MSG sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

QUESTION-I will be researching this. Of course that's a big laugh, because there is no info like I'm after. Anyway, I bought a lot of ten RCA 12AX7A's made in Gt. Britain. These tubes came in the original boxes and five boxes per sleeve. What a find and I got them at a darling price. They all have a white paint dot on the bottom or on the tip. Extra special grade? Could be.

Now the question. Did Mullard ever make a smooth plate? These are all smooth plates. I don't think I have ever had an RCA that wasn't a ribbed plate. These tubes are in boxes that say, "Country of origin marked on tube." I wonder how accurate that statement is. You see, Mullard could have gotten these from RFT and had the tube marked, "Made In Gt. Britain." Right now, that's my first impression. They look a lot like the RFT's "that are marked Telefunken." You see what I mean. Now there is one problem. The bases do flash when turned on.

I have some research to do with these unless one of you guys have a Mullard or Brimar smooth plate. Let me know. I've been very busy, but I will try to get some pictures up.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Part 2 of this week's tube porn (Pt 1 on the Power tubes thread)
Did somebody say Brimar?







1st photo front l-r 3 Brimars, 2 Eis, 2 Baldwin-labeled BPs
Back l - r 4 Sylvania EL34s, 4 Saratov EL84s


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, I got to watch what I say. We have a female member on this thread. 

How does this sound, "N*I*C*E!"

Hey, did I tell you I picked up three pairs of high test 6CA7's? One pair is a very rare Triple OOO Getter. Two tops and one side. They test 100 and 101. What a pair. Yours look very nice. Beautiful collection, I mean you could make a table centerpiece out of that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, now that I made my comments on those very nice tubes, I will say I was correct. The RCA's are exactly the same as the RFT Telefunken Smooth Plates. A real Tele doesn't flash, but an RFT Tele does flash, just like the RCA's. I mean when I saw them, I said, "RFT's."

The real Tele does not have a seam top, the RFT's do. Some of my RFT's, the seams are almost smooth. On the RCA's they are very prominent. Hmm, could it be they were "ordered' that way. I mean the Cold War was in full swing and Mullard was knowingly importing tubes to "relabel" from a Soviet Bloc nation? Holy shit. No wonder it said, "Made in Gt. Britain." An American could handle that, but to say, "Made in E. Germany?" I don't think so. The more I see what was going on, the more my jaw drops.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

I'd lend you my Brimars but they are all ribbed plates. Are you keeping the 6CA7s? Mine are all double Os. Where do you find your stuff??? It's amazing how well you dig up these thing 
The Eis both have seam tops...interesting that one is label with Mesa STR.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

30stringsandblackdog said:


> I'd lend you my Brimars but they are all ribbed plates. Are you keeping the 6CA7s? Mine are all double Os. Where do you find your stuff??? It's amazing how well you dig up these thing
> The Eis both have seam tops...interesting that one is label with Mesa STR.



You have a very large collection of tubes. What do the bigger one's fit? Out of your small tubes, which one do you like best? It looks like you like brimars.

Oh and Marty don't let your jaw drop to hard. I can't believe you guys know all of this stuff. Marty is starting to freak me out.

So you know, I was raised with 3 brothers, two older and one younger. I don't think you need to watch what you say. 

Marty, I will PM you about some tubes I found on ebay today. Let me know what you think.

You guys have a great evening. I just popped in. Maybe later I can spend more time over here, but I did ask a question and I think only one guy answered.

Bye


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I was over here, but them I went over to the Power Tubes thread. 

I'm glad I don't need to clean up my act. I usually keep it under 10. So it sounds like you might have been a (can I say it?) tomboy growing up.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I just left you a PM. Yep, I was a tomboy. I got into fights with my brothers all the time. I can throw a pretty good punch. I thought about getting involved in some of that bar boxing, but it's more of a T and A thing and I don't want to ruin my hands doing something like that.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, with seamed tops, smooth plates and the flash when you power up the tubes, I'm thinking Ei. I don't have any of the RFT Telefunkens, but the only other smooth plate I've had that flashed was the Ei. I've bought four smooth plates recently that were labeled MIJ and they were all Ei (Joe just finished with one of them). They even had the Ei factory codes on them. Put up some pictures, but if I were betting, thats where my money would be.

Dammit blackdog, I want a Brimar! You keep buying up all the good stuff! Congrats on a great collection. You're going to pass Marty if you keep this up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Maybe you could be a bodyguard?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Okay, I've heard enough. I have stuff like laundry to do. You guys just go on and talk about your tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Okay, I've heard enough. I have stuff like laundry to do. You guys just go on and talk about your tubes.



What else would we be doing on a Saturday night? 

I haven't found any oddball 12AX7s to post in awhile. Check out these freaks. I love the NEC 12DT7 that is clearly a Philips tube and the Brimar CV4004 with the Brimar print and weird plates and seams on top. Marty, do you think you could figure out how to fit that SF6057 in a DSL???

9-pin Double Triodes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it could be done, it's just a bitch to change out. I can say bitch, can't I?

I'll tell you something I did find out. Marconi is made in Madrid, Spain and they made shiny plates like the BEL's.

Geez, there are so many brands that we know nothing about. Some were actually independent of big old Philips, so they made their tubes to their specs.

When are you going to buy me that book, "Everything About The History Of Audio Tubes...The Glass And The Manufacturers." Please send it quickly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I would like to hear about what amp you run and your favorite tubes that you use. I see that some of you like Brimars. How do they sound? I'm not familiar with that brand. What's the difference between a Brimar and a Telefunken? Is a Mullard close to a Brimar. They are both made in the UK, right?



Oh, so here is where I stumbled and fell. I didn't catch this.

I run mainly TSL's. For just jamming out, I like using a TSL602. I usually play one of them. I'll get around and list the tubes in some of my other amps, but what I have in my 602 with the JBL D123 speakers is a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in V1 and a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. A GE short, Black Plate in V3 and another GE short, Black Plate in V4.

Real quick, cuz I have to take off. I run some of my amps with Telefunkens and I have one of my DSL401's with a 7025 in V1. This amp is set up extra clean and I run it in the clean channel only with an FX processor in the front.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You guys have a great evening. I just popped in. Maybe later I can spend more time over here, but I did ask a question and I think only one guy answered.
> 
> Bye



Okay, I did mine.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I would like to hear about what amp you run and your favorite tubes that you use. I see that some of you like Brimars. How do they sound? I'm not familiar with that brand. What's the difference between a Brimar and a Telefunken? Is a Mullard close to a Brimar. They are both made in the UK, right?



I play with 4 amps, 2 Marshalls, a Carol-Ann OD2-100, and Diana, my Trainwreck Rocket clone. I haven't changed any of the tubes in the Carol-Ann or the 71 JMP 50; however, Diana came with Chinese preamp tubes and Russian Mullard EL84 reissues. It was ok sounding, but the mids were muddy and the highs were shrill and brittle sounding. I went on the Amp Garage, where the TW guys hang out and asked for advice. I eventually ended up replacing ALL the tubes with a Brimar in V1, an Amperex in V2, and a Valvo Hamburg in V3, as well as putting in 70s Saratov EL84s. It was like night and day. Everything was noticeable, with the mids ringing out true, the highs clear as can be without the shrillness. Distortion was also much improved, a stronger tone. 

I did change out the preamps on the 71 Superlead 100. It came with some nameless Chinese tube. It now has a Brimar in V1, an Ei in V2, and a BP in V3. Again, evrything just sounds cleaner and stronger (like a Superlead needs stronger)


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

OK, now I'm officially sad. I was just finishing up breakfast and got to the last of a box of BJs Chocolate Chunk cookies, and I looked at the small crumbs on the bottom. It reminded me of how we used to pour all those crumbs on my dog's food; she'd love that special treat and demolish her breakfast. We had to put her down last July after 12 wonderful years of complete love with us; she was diagnosed with stomach cancer and stopped eating. I still miss her; every now and then, I think about getting another shelter dog, but I'm not ready.
Here are a couple of photos; her name was Dina Ferrari Superfast American Dog; she was named after Dino Ferrari, Enzo's son.







She never stopped wagging, even at the end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gotta love the old dog. After five years they automatically become one of the family.


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it could be done, it's just a bitch to change out. I can say bitch, can't I?
> 
> I'll tell you something I did find out. Marconi is made in Madrid, Spain and they made shiny plates like the BEL's.
> 
> Geez, there are so many brands that we know nothing about. Some were actually independent of big old Philips, so they made their tubes to their specs.
> 
> When are you going to buy me that book, "Everything About The History Of Audio Tubes...The Glass And The Manufacturers." Please send it quickly.



I had a look inside my 6101 that i got recently and there was 3 Marconi 12AX7's Made in Spain in there. The rest are poxy stock. I couldn't find damn all about them, but they are my first NOS.....lol.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and I see that there is yet another question I forgot to answer. I haven't used a Brimar, but I would assume that they do sound somewhat similar to a Mullard. I thought the Mullard was "the" tube, but there are other choices, although a Mullard in V1 is what was stock in the early Marshall's.

Something that you need to know, Lisa. There was a company called Philips and they basically controlled or owned most of the tube companies in the UK and Europe. Therefore, the tubes they made do bear a resemblance in the way they are put together. Bottom line, any Philips tube is usually a safe bet to buy. As far as I am concerned, their construction was several steps above the USA tubes. Their screens were so precise, it made an RCA screen look like a flyswatter. So if you are surfing EBAY for tubes, it would pay to do a little research on Philips tubes. Now the most common are Amperex, Electrohome, Mini Watt and Valvo. These are just a handful of the tubes made by Philips. Another tube is Telefunken. Philips had a hand in that company as well.

Here is a description as found on numerous tube sites relating to how tubes sound.

In the line up of the three sisters, the three European sisters that is, the Amperex is like the fair-haired Dutch blond. The Telefunken is the tall, well built, sandy haired blond in the family, and the Mullard is the ravishing black haired, British brunette. These are of course just slight "hues" in the perspective that these tubes present, as they are really all extremely transparent units. 

To me, a Telefunken is an all around HiFi or guitar tube. It does both extremely well. It has a smooth frequency response and not brittle on the top end, but airy. The Amperex is a smooth tube as well, but I feel it has a little more bottom to it. The Mullard has more hair, as it gets a little gritty when pushed. Not a bad thing, as it sounds good.

I plan to do a little more of what I used to do and that is rolling tubes and posting it here. Possible scenarios would be a Telefunken in V1 with a high gain Telefunken in V2. Amperex in V1, with an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken in V2. We have settled on the Raytheon Black Plate as "the" V2 tube, but I would like to hear some other tubes in V2.

Stay tuned for that, kids and kidettes.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I guess I'll print that off and study it for the next few days.

Sorry about your dog, 30strings.

Well stopped in and it looks like the place is all locked up. I'll see you all later.

LISA


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darrenw5094 said:


> I had a look inside my 6101 that i got recently and there was 3 Marconi 12AX7's Made in Spain in there. The rest are poxy stock. I couldn't find damn all about them, but they are my first NOS.....lol.



Those tubes were made in Madrid. One model is a copy of a BEL tube with the bright shiny plates. Is that what you have?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some of my old runnin' buddies have got together and started their own full service shop. My brother-in-law who lives in Phoenix gave me the heads up. One of the new members saw that I had lived in Phoenix and was looking for a tech. They have Gary Lowe. The guy is friggin awesome. I met him in 1984 about a month after I had moved to Phoenix. Anyway, check out their web site. You can also click on the celebrity guitars and it will enlarge.

FixGuitars.com-Phoenix Arizona Guitar & Electroncis Repair Center


----------



## Raluen

Just have to say, there is an amazing amount of info in this thread. I have a TSL-602 and wanted to change out the tubes and try out some NOS tubes (haven't bought NOS tubes before). Started looking for info them and ran across this thread. Not sure that I know enough about what I'm looking for to have any real questions right now, but just wanted to say thanks for all the info. Guess I'm going to spend some more time reading now.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

What exactly is "tube Rolling"?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Raluen said:


> Just have to say, there is an amazing amount of info in this thread. I have a TSL-602 and wanted to change out the tubes and try out some NOS tubes (haven't bought NOS tubes before). Started looking for info them and ran across this thread. Not sure that I know enough about what I'm looking for to have any real questions right now, but just wanted to say thanks for all the info. Guess I'm going to spend some more time reading now.



I can save you hours of reading. Even if you read it all we have changed the tube line ups in our amps several times. We are tweakers...toob tweakers.

If you get yourself a Philips tube such as an Amperex, Mullard, or Telefunken and put it in V1 and then put a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2, you have the start of something really good. You can either finish it off with a couple of Sylvania's, GE's, or Raytheon Gray Plates for V3 and V4. "Or" you can use current production tubes in V3 and V4.

And if you are wanting to save the hassle of buying on EBAY and get the right matched set, PM me for details. I would be glad to help you out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cudacrazy72 said:


> What exactly is "tube Rolling"?



Rollin', rollin'...keep them doggies rollin'...rawhide!

Tube rolling is taking like six tubes and trying them in four sockets. You keep moving them around until you find the combo you like. Mathematically, there are a lot of possibilities, so it could take you some time. Joe, Alan and I have all had serious toob burns from excessive rolling. (Damn things can get ya!)

There is an art to it. If you have a DSL/TSL it is more difficult, because you have two very important gain tubes. However, if you get a solid V3 and V4 established, then it is easier to just roll two tubes in stead of four. Generally, any good solid NOS tube will suffice in V3 and V4. Say a couple of GE Black Plates? Perfect. A high gain Sylvania and a Raytheon Gray Plate? Fantastic. Once you have them in there, then we already know that 90 per cent of us want a Raytheon Black Plate in V2, so that just leaves one tube to roll and it is the most important tube of them all. In this spot you should get the best tube you can afford that you like. Once you do, you will want to buy a couple of spares so you will be good for six years or more. 

Anyway, that's what toob rollin' is.


----------



## ken361

Once you roll you never let go LOL!


----------



## Raluen

Thanks for the info Marty. PM sent


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those tubes were made in Madrid. One model is a copy of a BEL tube with the bright shiny plates. Is that what you have?



eBay.ie: 1 Tube ECC83 / 12AX7 MARCONI Spain. Silver Plates. (item 160407567795 end time 02-Mar-10 21:04:27 GMT)

I am nearly sure it is the same as that one above on ebay. I can check later and maybe take photo and post them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm almost positive that tube is a French Mazda. I've been watching one of those on eBay and trying to find out what exactly it was. The round cutout over the heater instead of the rectangular one is what had me confused. Turns out that the round hole was on tubes from the late 1950s and in the early '60s they changed to the larger rectangular cutout.






Here's the later one:






*Images are from tubemonger.com (or tubemongerlib.com). It's a great site for buying or just browsing through photos. There are thousands of photos of old tubes there.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> Images are from tubemonger.com (or tubemongerlib.com). It's a great site for buying or just browsing through photos. There are thousands of photos of old tubes there.




This is spot on, I use it quite often to help identify valves i am uncertain of.


----------



## Darrenw5094

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> This is spot on, I use it quite often to help identify valves i am uncertain of.



So is a French Mazda from late 50's any good?

The ebay item in case it doesn't load is 160407567795.


----------



## RiverRatt

Darrenw5094 said:


> So is a French Mazda from late 50's any good?
> 
> The ebay item in case it doesn't load is 160407567795.



YES! You won't find a bad review on them, unless it's the price . 

They are known for having tons of gain without losing clarity. If you don't have the time, you're welcome to send them my way. I'll give them a listen and write a review. I'll even return them sooner or later


----------



## Darrenw5094

Going to throw these up for reviews from ebay:

eBay.ie: SYLVANIA BALDWIN 12AX7 AUDIO VACUUM TUBES TESTED NOS (item 180475847614 end time 08-Mar-10 23:19:06 GMT)

eBay.ie: 1 - 12ax7 Raytheon? Baldwin Tube - (27 available) (item 170445264383 end time 14-Mar-10 03:49:06 GMT)

eBay.ie: ECC83 12AX7 NOS RFT TWIN TRIODE AUDIO VALVES TUBES x 2 (item 260558498610 end time 03-Mar-10 01:38:30 GMT)

eBay.ie: 12AX7 BLACK PLATE SYLVANIA NOS (item 310165874111 end time 31-Mar-10 11:16:21 BST)

eBay.ie: ECC83 12AX7 COLOMOR SVETLANA TUBES VALVES NOS 1 PC (item 220442233817 end time 22-Mar-10 18:36:54 GMT)


----------



## MartyStrat54

.


Darrenw5094 said:


> Going to throw these up for reviews from ebay:
> 
> eBay.ie: SYLVANIA BALDWIN 12AX7 AUDIO VACUUM TUBES TESTED NOS (item 180475847614 end time 08-Mar-10 23:19:06 GMT)
> 
> These would be excellent V3 and V4 tubes. They are gray plates and the price is really fair.
> 
> eBay.ie: 1 - 12ax7 Raytheon? Baldwin Tube - (27 available) (item 170445264383 end time 14-Mar-10 03:49:06 GMT)
> 
> Again, not black plates, but you could ask for some higher gain tubes for V3 and V4.
> 
> eBay.ie: ECC83 12AX7 NOS RFT TWIN TRIODE AUDIO VALVES TUBES x 2 (item 260558498610 end time 03-Mar-10 01:38:30 GMT)
> 
> Possibly a good buy as RFT's usally fetch at least $40 per tube. This could possibly be a good pair of V1's, or a V1/V2 combination.
> 
> eBay.ie: 12AX7 BLACK PLATE SYLVANIA NOS (item 310165874111 end time 31-Mar-10 11:16:21 BST)
> 
> These are okay. Better than an RCA, not quite as good as a Raytheon. That's a pretty steep price...30 pounds Sterling.
> 
> eBay.ie: ECC83 12AX7 COLOMOR SVETLANA TUBES VALVES NOS 1 PC (item 220442233817 end time 22-Mar-10 18:36:54 GMT)
> 
> This wouldn't be as good as a new Tung-Sol. This is just an old CP tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's one I don't know. Is this the Siemens Telefunken? It's clearly a Philips tube, that's about all I know.

2 audio tubes E83CC triple mica Siemens Halske Munich - eBay (item 260557782084 end time Mar-04-10 10:02:38 PST)


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> .



Thanks for that again Marty. I just sold a Wolfgang for a fair bit of money and gassin' for valves is way cheaper than buying guitars. So i might take the plunge on one or two on ebay.

Thanks again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darrenw5094 said:


> Thanks for that again Marty. I just sold a Wolfgang for a fair bit of money and gassin' for valves is way cheaper than buying guitars. So i might take the plunge on one or two on ebay.
> 
> Thanks again.



No problem. Try to get yourself a good V1 tube like a Telefunken or some brand of Philips tube. There are many, Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, Mini Watt, to name just a few. If you can't find anything and are willing to pay international postage, then contact me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Here's one I don't know. Is this the Siemens Telefunken? It's clearly a Philips tube, that's about all I know.
> 
> 2 audio tubes E83CC triple mica Siemens Halske Munich - eBay (item 260557782084 end time Mar-04-10 10:02:38 PST)



Boy, most of the German guys charge 10 to 15 dollars to ship. This guy wants $21???

Only one angle on the tubes. I would like to see if the hole in the plate is a half hole or all the way through. Can't tell from the picture. With Siemens, you never knew who made what. Granted, some of the Siemens small 9 Pins are up in the top five tubes, but they closed the door in the mid 70's and a lot of counterfeiting took place. Now these do look like the real McCoy, but I see a lot of Mullard inside the tube, or Mullard-like construction.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I got two Telefunkens and two Raython black plates. Marty verified the tubes for me and said the tubes were good. Result? My amp sounds fantastic and now I have a set for back up. I'm really happy. Now if I can just learn more about what they really do.

This is a great thread. Lots and lots of info. I woul like to read more about what the different tubes sound like. I didn't realize how much of it you guys have already done. I should have been here six months ago and I still would be way behind.

I'll stay in touch.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well I got two Telefunkens and two Raython black plates. Marty verified the tubes for me and said the tubes were good. Result? My amp sounds fantastic and now I have a set for back up. I'm really happy. Now if I can just learn more about what they really do.
> 
> This is a great thread. Lots and lots of info. I woul like to read more about what the different tubes sound like. I didn't realize how much of it you guys have already done. I should have been here six months ago and I still would be way behind.
> 
> I'll stay in touch.



Way to go RL! You know I love that combo in mine hehe.


----------



## Darrenw5094

RiverRatt said:


> Here's one I don't know. Is this the Siemens Telefunken? It's clearly a Philips tube, that's about all I know.
> 
> 2 audio tubes E83CC triple mica Siemens Halske Munich - eBay (item 260557782084 end time Mar-04-10 10:02:38 PST)



How much would you go on those bad boys? Postage to my front door is only €8.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

My Matsushitas arrived today, have not had a chance to try them yet, i have some time off work coming up soon so i will give them a run then. In the mean time here are some pics.











So im quite excited about these, and to make things even more exciting this week I manged to snag a Long Plate Blackburn made Mullard CV492 (factory/specification code of KB/DA) with a date code of LH (about 1956, August) for £10. It should be here tomorrow and I am really interested to see how this stacks up against my other valves. Anyone have any experience of the mullard military stuff?


----------



## RiverRatt

No experience with Mullard military stuff, but if you like the Mullard sound, you're going to like the Matsushitas. If they have any life left in them at all, they are really punchy with a little more hair and a little darker than a Mullard. Excellent tubes (sorry - valves)! 

Mats are getting to be near the top of my all-time favorites list. If I had a box full of these, some Raytheons, RFT's and smooth plate Tele's, I probably wouldn't ever buy another tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah right...maybe if you were 80.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Check this Amperex out.
eBay.ie: Philips Amperex 12AX7 12AX7A ECC83 Tube 1958 Holland (item 170452724772 end time 07-Mar-10 20:57:01 GMT)


----------



## rjohns1

Just scored this one for $14.95 shipped:
RAYTHEON 12AX7A ECC83 GREY PLATE TUBE 1965 - eBay (item 380211065021 end time Mar-03-10 10:22:04 PST)


----------



## Darrenw5094

rjohns1 said:


> Just scored this one for $14.95 shipped:
> RAYTHEON 12AX7A ECC83 GREY PLATE TUBE 1965 - eBay (item 380211065021 end time Mar-03-10 10:22:04 PST)



Jammy sod. She is a bit wonky, but good for 15 blips.


----------



## RiverRatt

DarrenW, that Amperex is the best tube you've posted so far, but you're taking a beating on the shipping. At $31 shipping and if it goes for the minimum bid, you'll have around $51 USD invested in it incl. shipping, which is about the maximum I would put into a tube, and I would have to like it *a lot* at that.

rjohns, that one you picked up is a Toshiba, I think. I don't own one so definitely come back and post a tone report.


----------



## rjohns1

Ratt, will do. i figured for the price why not get it. At the very least it could be a rock solid tube for a PI.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Mr. Ratt, do you like the Japanese tubes? It seems like you do. Can you use them for a V1 tube? Are they as good as you say? Better than a Telefunken?

What is your favorite tube right now in V1? I know there are so many variables like the amp and other things, but I am bewildered over how you can remember what different tubes sound like.

I am very happy with what I have. I don't have the time to do what you have to do to get more tubes. I guess, I will need to think about getting some more, so I will have enough to last. They probably keep going up in price, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, the Japanese tubes are a good value right now. Philips owned Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, Matsushita, Bel, Ei, and a lot of others. Most all of their tubes sound similar, so you already have a ballpark idea what the tube is going to sound like. They have their differences, but generally the Matsushita is a darker tube with strong, punchy mids and the Amperex tubes are more airy without so much of a low mid spike. The other Philips tubes that I've used are somewhere in between these two. Other European tubes like RFT and Telefunken have their own personality, with RFTs being a darker sounding tube and Telefunkens just doing everything right. IMO the vast majority of US tubes have a scooped sound that I don't care much for (with a few exceptions i.e. Raytheon).


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

The Mullard arrived today, sound great, but i wont have a chance to really run it untill this coming Monday, I think i got an absolute bargain. Long plates, square getter blackburn made in about the mid 50s, military specification, dead quite as well. Pics!


----------



## Darrenw5094

RiverRatt said:


> DarrenW, that Amperex is the best tube you've posted so far, but you're taking a beating on the shipping. At $31 shipping and if it goes for the minimum bid, you'll have around $51 USD invested in it incl. shipping, which is about the maximum I would put into a tube, and I would have to like it *a lot* at that.



I could possibly get creamed for customs tax on that bad boy too. Irish customs take 25% extra if they can.


----------



## core

Ok so it seems that RCA 7025 took a crap and got REAL microphonic on me. BUMMER I was really liking it. And the kicker is the only guy selling them on eBay it seems is the same one I got mine from. Not sure I trust him as I don't know if they are really RCA and they don;t seem to be as strong. However I liked what it did for my V1 spot in the 6100 but I may go with a TAD 7025. I stronger RCA valve that I picked up locally in that spot and it's just not as good sounding to me. Man isn't that weird?

Anyone out there able to steer me to some good reliable RCA's?

The thing I liked about that particular valve is it really warmed up the clean channel and gave it some bite that I like. Made it sound more like an EL34 version than a 6L6 like it is. I'd rather have a bit of growl than Fender clean. I suppose I can keep it in there and not worry too much about noise but it's just bothersome that you pay so much for a valve to have it last like two months.


----------



## solarburn

core said:


> Ok so it seems that RCA 7025 took a crap and got REAL microphonic on me. BUMMER I was really liking it. And the kicker is the only guy selling them on eBay it seems is the same one I got mine from. Not sure I trust him as I don't know if they are really RCA and they don;t seem to be as strong. However I liked what it did for my V1 spot in the 6100 but I may go with a TAD 7025. I stronger RCA valve that I picked up locally in that spot and it's just not as good sounding to me. Man isn't that weird?
> 
> Anyone out there able to steer me to some good reliable RCA's?
> 
> The thing I liked about that particular valve is it really warmed up the clean channel and gave it some bite that I like. Made it sound more like an EL34 version than a 6L6 like it is. I'd rather have a bit of growl than Fender clean. I suppose I can keep it in there and not worry too much about noise but it's just bothersome that you pay so much for a valve to have it last like two months.



I had all 3 of my 7025's(RCA)go microphonic and squeal on me and these are suppose to be quiet low noise tubes. Mine didn't work out quite like that hehe. I've moved on anyways and no longer want to use them.


----------



## core

So which brand do you prefer? Are you still sticking with 7025?


----------



## solarburn

core said:


> So which brand do you prefer? Are you still sticking with 7025?



Hell no. I'm done with 7025's cause I like Telefunkens, Raytheon BP's, Matsushitas. Mullards I keep around too. I like using the Telefunken in V1 as well as the Matsushita. The Raytheon BP most always goes into my V2 slot and stays there, at least in my Marshall. I also use an RFT in V1 and I actually like it in the PI slot too. The Telefunkens really excel when soloing. The notes are round yet sing. Cleans sound great with it too. The other above tubes mentioned I utilize for varying the mid flavoring of the DSL. The highs and lowend seem to be fine most of the time with any of these.

Now I'm not talking night and day differences but there are notable changes that I can hear. The mid tone is different between the BP/Matsushita/RFT. If I want to really hear the tubes flavor it goes in V1 first. Then after gaging it's character I will mix V1 & V2 to get what I want. V3 & the PI get what I consider balanced "tone wise" AX7's. Sometimes I use the PI slot to color my tone and will place a particular AX7 in it to get that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, Joe, SolarBurn, pulls his tubes out and throws them on a concrete floor and dances around them as a ritual of some sort to the almighty Tone God. So he is rough on tubes.

RCA had a great idea and it worked fine for the application. However, an RCA 7025 is a long plate tube and by the laws of physics are just more prone to going microphonic. Now I have been giving a lot of advice out about 6100 amps. Generally in the head version, an RCA 7025 is the tube of choice for V1 since it is a dedicated tube solely for the clean channel. This sets it apart from most other Marshall amps. However, if you are having trouble, but want that 7025 sound, I would recommend a Philips 7025 with medium plates or a GE 7025 with short Black Plates. The GE is really a smooth tube and holds it own in a guitar amp. Now as I have said here and on other posts, V2 is also a critical tube. In reality, it is the first gain stage for the crunch and lead channels (V2A and V2B). Here, I recommend one of the big three, Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken.

The other important tubes are V6. I recommend a Raytheon Black Plate.

V3 or V5. It is up to the user to decide where he wants the second Raytheon Black Plate. The other tubes can be any decent generic NOS.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I don't know what slot does what in a 6100 but what I want from a tube and what experience tells me is once I do know what slot does what I can usually achieve some good tone shaping. As much as tubes will give. 

That's what has been so rewarding with all the tubes we have rolled here is I know their characters now and will choose them accordingly for each slot on my Marshall. My other amps too. Once I know what tubes I think sound best in my DSL I stock up on those tubes. I don't have to waist a bunch more time/money chasing other tubes. I just build up on what I like or maybe once in awhile I will try one I haven't yet. One tube here and there won't break the bank as opposed to filling all slots at once. 

I think the same thing with the longer plate 7025's. Medium or short plates would be better. Less prone to microphonics. Personally I do not like my cleans really clean though. I like them warm and dynamic. Too clean annoys my senses. Don't like how it feels when I play. Warm with some bite and plenty of sustain.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, Joe, SolarBurn, pulls his tubes out and throws them on a concrete floor and dances around them as a ritual of some sort to the almighty Tone God. So he is rough on tubes.
> 
> RCA had a great idea and it worked fine for the application. However, an RCA 7025 is a long plate tube and by the laws of physics are just more prone to going microphonic. Now I have been giving a lot of advice out about 6100 amps. Generally in the head version, an RCA 7025 is the tube of choice for V1 since it is a dedicated tube solely for the clean channel. This sets it apart from most other Marshall amps. However, if you are having trouble, but want that 7025 sound, I would recommend a Philips 7025 with medium plates or a GE 7025 with short Black Plates. The GE is really a smooth tube and holds it own in a guitar amp. Now as I have said here and on other posts, V2 is also a critical tube. In reality, it is the first gain stage for the crunch and lead channels (V2A and V2B). Here, I recommend one of the big three, Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken.
> 
> The other important tubes are V6. I recommend a Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> V3 or V5. It is up to the user to decide where he wants the second Raytheon Black Plate. The other tubes can be any decent generic NOS.



While wearing a loin cloth...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That's what has been so rewarding with all the tubes we have rolled here is I know their characters now and will choose them accordingly for each slot on my Marshall.



Can you tell me which one has the beady eyes and is the trouble maker?

How about the shifty fucker that will steal all your tone?

Let's hear about these "characters."


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> While wearing a loin cloth...



Could you post some pics of that? Sounds interesting...Joe.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can you tell me which one has the beady eyes and is the trouble maker?
> 
> How about the shifty fucker that will steal all your tone?
> 
> Let's hear about these "characters."



I use a rubber mallet on those bastids!

The final tone test is whether it drops the panties or not. If not its back to the drawing board looking for that "TUBE"!

I luv panty dropp'n tone...

My apologies to the ladies!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think you have Solar's tubes confused with CP stuff. The first one sounds like that Shugang I had, and the second one has to be a Sovtek.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Could you post some pics of that? Sounds interesting...Joe.



Probably more "I'm sorry my eyes saw that" kind of thing...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

LMAO! Just beautiful, man!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What about you Marty? What do you run around in?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> What about you Marty? What do you run around in?



In my house...by myself? I'm pure as the driven snow. Otherwise, I'm in my tube hunting outfit that looks a lot like a whaler's bib with huge rubber boots.



How did practice go last night?


----------



## solarburn

He wears a onezie with Winnie the Poohs all over it while sipp'n Wild Turkey and smok'n a cigar.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

It went great until the power went off for about 30 minutes. It came back on and everything was fine. I hate that.

The amp sounded great and everyone in the band said it sounded better. I really think it is better at higher volume. It just seems to cut through better than it did. Louder doesn't mean unclear. These two tubes are much better than the RCA's.

So how is everything going over here today? I got off work early and thought I would check in on you guys. I mean this is the fun thread, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> He wears a onezie with Winnie the Poohs all over it while sipp'n Wild Turkey and smok'n a cigar.








Right! Stop that! 

That's just silly.


----------



## solarburn

Oh yeah AND its Friday so its only going to get weirder...or more fun. That depends on you!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well it can be fun unless your good buddy lies about what you really do. I don't have the Pooh, I have Bam Bam and I gave up cigars. I do however still like the Wild Turkey. At least you didn't bring up my snorkel and fins outfit.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well it can be fun unless your good buddy lies about what you really do. I don't have the Pooh, I have Bam Bam and I gave up cigars. I do however still like the Wild Turkey. At least you didn't bring up my snorkel and fins outfit.



Oh you're going to be just fine here hehe!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks Joe. I had to leave for a moment...small crisis to handle. I do have a sense of humor and I like to joke around. 

Maybe I can send you some of my fluffy bunny slippers...in pink. What do you think? Or would you prefer my snorkel outfit?


----------



## solarburn

I think the pink fluffy bunny slippers would really accentuate my Tarzan loin cloth while doing my ritualistic Voodoo tube dance.

What da ya think Winnie the Pooh...I mean Martimus!?


----------



## solarburn

On a tube note I put a Telefunken in V1 of my Monza and it sounds...delish. It only has 2 12AX7's. The PI is the LPS it came with. Going to get another Mullard cause my one is in the Marshall. I want to try it in V1. Marty's going to hook me up of course.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ouch! I had to take care of those nasty PM's and tube questions and then a stop at a thread for a quick answer. I was in a hurry to get back over here for the Friday night fiesta, but it looks as if I have been made the "butt of the jokes."

You ever see a 6'3" guy in a Winnie the Pooh outfit? It ain't pretty.:eek2::eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> On a tube note I put a Telefunken in V1 of my Monza and it sounds...delish. It only has 2 12AX7's. The PI is the LPS it came with. Going to get another Mullard cause my one is in the Marshall. I want to try it in V1. Marty's going to hook me up of course.



Yeah, I'll make sure it's one that has rolled down the stairs.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I'll make sure it's one that has rolled down the stairs.



Oh thanks man...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Sorry Marty. Blame Joe. He made me do it. It was funny though. You aren't mad are you? You seem to joke around a lot.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Sorry Marty. Blame Joe. He made me do it. It was funny though. You aren't mad are you? You seem to joke around a lot.



Oh he can handle himself. I'm the one that needs to worry hehe...:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lisa, there was only one thing that made me mad and he got banned. (Although Joe was his friend.).

Ah hell, in all fairness, Joe just pretended to be his friend to help mellow out the situation. The bottom line is the guy is gone. I didn't even know they had banned him until about two weeks ago. 

Please don't ask for any more details, because it ain't worth discussing. 

I love to joke around and I like those around me to have a good sense of humor, which I believe you have. 

As Joe said, "I believe you will fit in here just fine." We can't be any worse than your brothers.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Good. I'm glad you are not mad.

I won't ask about the guy who got banned. I've been to other forums and usually if you get banned, they have a good reason.

BTW Marty-How was Kansas City last night?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It went well. I ended up at a Seafood Bistro and it was divine. I won't gross you out about what I had for an appetizer, but the main dish was fresh swordfish and I swear I was biting into a K.C. Strip. Oh it was heavenly.

BTW-I went to a big auto show last night. You should see what the 2012 Corvette is going to look like. Oh man is it hot.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I'll make sure it's one that has rolled down the stairs.



Send him that GE 6681 that I bounced off my Les Paul and the chair leg last week! It's the only Mullard in that batch I just sent you.

I'm going to take the plunge and go to Memphis tomorrow with a wad of cash and try out some combo amps. Wish me luck!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well guys, I'm going to jet for a while. I may get back on later if any of you are still up. You know how it is? Something is telling me to go downtown.

I'm glad you had fun last night in KC, Marty.

Marty told me your names and I have seen them used on certain posts. So I will try and use your names in the future. Just in case you didn't know, my name is Lisa.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Send him that GE 6681 that I bounced off my Les Paul and the chair leg last week! It's the only Mullard in that batch I just sent you.
> 
> I'm going to take the plunge and go to Memphis tomorrow with a wad of cash and try out some combo amps. Wish me luck!



Yeah, them 6681's are not my favorite. I kept wanting to get some and when I did, I wasn't impressed. It's a late model tube and was built stiffer. Perfect for Joe.

Good luck on the pursuit of your amp happiness, "Mr. Ratt."


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I plan to be up late, I may see you later, Lisa (That is your name, right?). Have fun "downtown." Don't wear your Bam Bam outfit unless you have a club.


----------



## Raluen

Friday night, a Daystrom labled Mullard 12ax7 showed up in the mail today as well as 2 Raytheon gray plate 12ax7's - both kids are going to a lock-in and the fridge is restocked with beer. All is right with the world.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Bye-bye. I might see you all later if it turns out to be a drag.


----------



## solarburn

Have fun Lisa!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Send him that GE 6681 that I bounced off my Les Paul and the chair leg last week! It's the only Mullard in that batch I just sent you.
> 
> I'm going to take the plunge and go to Memphis tomorrow with a wad of cash and try out some combo amps. Wish me luck!



Now he doesn't need any help getting even with me...

Yeah good luck tomorrow! Can't wait to see what you end up with. AT least you get to try them out right there. Find a good'n.


----------



## core

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hell no. I'm done with 7025's cause I like Telefunkens, Raytheon BP's, Matsushitas. Mullards I keep around too. I like using the Telefunken in V1 as well as the Matsushita. The Raytheon BP most always goes into my V2 slot and stays there, at least in my Marshall. I also use an RFT in V1 and I actually like it in the PI slot too. The Telefunkens really excel when soloing. The notes are round yet sing. Cleans sound great with it too. The other above tubes mentioned I utilize for varying the mid flavoring of the DSL. The highs and lowend seem to be fine most of the time with any of these.
> 
> Now I'm not talking night and day differences but there are notable changes that I can hear. The mid tone is different between the BP/Matsushita/RFT. If I want to really hear the tubes flavor it goes in V1 first. Then after gaging it's character I will mix V1 & V2 to get what I want. V3 & the PI get what I consider balanced "tone wise" AX7's. Sometimes I use the PI slot to color my tone and will place a particular AX7 in it to get that.



This thread is hoppin'! Some good stuff guys.

I am definitely a Tele fan as it's been the best for tone I can find so far as well. I think those Raytheon's have done well also. I'm gonna have to re think the 7025 thing and roll some other tubes in V1. I tried the Tele in V! but wasn;t completely sold. But you know for the 6100 I could swear by my ear that what goes in V1 also affects or colors the other channels. Could be crazy but I don't think they are completely separate.


----------



## solarburn

core said:


> This thread is hoppin'! Some good stuff guys.
> 
> I am definitely a Tele fan as it's been the best for tone I can find so far as well. I think those Raytheon's have done well also. I'm gonna have to re think the 7025 thing and roll some other tubes in V1. I tried the Tele in V! but wasn;t completely sold. But you know for the 6100 I could swear by my ear that what goes in V1 also affects or colors the other channels. Could be crazy but I don't think they are completely separate.



It can be tricky listening to all the subtleties. Ears get tired. You just plain hear things. I have spent many hours rolling and frankly that's what its taken to get to know my amp and them tubes. You've got to rely on them ears though. I'm not familiar with your amp at all. So many tubes hehe. Try a few different tubes just in V1 and see what happens on a channel that isn't suppose to be effected by V1. Use tubes that really sound different and would show that.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

Hey Marty

I got the package today. Man what a difference!!!!


----------



## solarburn

Cudacrazy72 said:


> Hey Marty
> 
> I got the package today. Man what a difference!!!!



What'd you get?

Whats in V1 and V2?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Hey Lisa, I'll take the flipper outfit...Serge
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9dW8RovvS4]YouTube - Flipper[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Hey man...I hit 2000. I gotta celebrate! Hmmm what to do...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What'd you get?
> 
> Whats in V1 and V2?



He was a "wise" man and went with an NOS 4-Pack. Tele Smooth Plate (a little stout), Raytheon Black Plate (High Gain), V3 and V4, Sylvania Gray Plates.

Glad you like the package, CUDA.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What'd you get?
> 
> Whats in V1 and V2?



I got a Telefunken for V1 a Raytheon BP for V2 and 2 Sylvania for V3 & V4.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> He was a "wise" man and went with an NOS 4-Pack. Tele Smooth Plate (a little stout), Raytheon Black Plate (High Gain), V3 and V4, Sylvania Gray Plates.
> 
> Glad you like the package, CUDA.




Very nice tone pack!

Should sound great.


----------



## thrawn86

*Attention Solar:*
You should be careful what you post around here. (see sig line below)

@cudacrazy: I'm jealous! Looking forward to mine next week.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Now he doesn't need any help getting even with me...
> 
> Yeah good luck tomorrow! Can't wait to see what you end up with. AT least you get to try them out right there. Find a good'n.



I'm dangerous when I go out gear hunting with money to spend. I say I'm only going to look at amps, but I'll probably end up coming home with a guitar (and an amp!). There are a couple of Jet City dealers that I want to check out and look at some used stuff. GC has that 15% off special going on if you trade something in. I've got a $20 effects pedal or two that I think I can part with


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> This thread is hoppin'! Some good stuff guys.
> 
> I am definitely a Tele fan as it's been the best for tone I can find so far as well. I think those Raytheon's have done well also. I'm gonna have to re think the 7025 thing and roll some other tubes in V1. I tried the Tele in V! but wasn;t completely sold. But you know for the 6100 I could swear by my ear that what goes in V1 also affects or colors the other channels. Could be crazy but I don't think they are completely separate.



I very familiar with the preamp stages of the 6100. As I said, V1 is a separate tube for the clean channel only. V2B and V6A and B are the crunch channel. 

The lead channel uses V2A, V3A and B, V4A and B and V5A and B. 

The key tubes are V1 and V2. The next most important tubes are V3 or V5 (depending on where you want to put the high gain tube) and V6.

V4 you want a good tube, but just keep in mind that you want two tubes in the lead channel to be normal gain and then one high gain. Sticking a bunch of high gain tubes in there will sound like shit. If it were me, I would have an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken in V2 and then a Raytheon Black Plate (High Gain) in V6. The lead channel shares V2, so I would have something like a couple of Mullards (normal gain) and another high gain Black Plate in V5.


----------



## racko7566

Cudacrazy72 said:


> I got a Telefunken for V1 a Raytheon BP for V2 and 2 Sylvana for V3 & V4.



Hey cuda, I have almost the same line up but I have an amperex instead of the tele.. and I love the sound. And I hear the tele sounds better. Hope to try one sometime.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> *Attention Solar:*
> You should be careful what you post around here. (see sig line below)
> 
> @cudacrazy: I'm jealous! Looking forward to mine next week.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey man...I hit 2000. I gotta celebrate! Hmmm what to do...





Here's to my good friend and online buddie...Joe Hulsey. 2000 and 2000 more.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey man...I hit 2000. I gotta celebrate! Hmmm what to do...


Buy some tubes! What else????


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> *Attention Solar:*
> You should be careful what you post around here. (see sig line below)
> 
> @cudacrazy: I'm jealous! Looking forward to mine next week.



Hey, you may get yours tomorrow. They were mailed at the same time.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I very familiar with the preamp stages of the 6100. As I said, V1 is a separate tube for the clean channel only. V2B and V6A and B are the crunch channel.
> 
> The lead channel uses V2A, V3A and B, V4A and B and V5A and B.
> 
> The key tubes are V1 and V2. The next most important tubes are V3 or V5 (depending on where you want to put the high gain tube) and V6.
> 
> V4 you want a good tube, but just keep in mind that you want two tubes in the lead channel to be normal gain and then one high gain. Sticking a bunch of high gain tubes in there will sound like shit. If it were me, I would have an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken in V2 and then a Raytheon Black Plate (High Gain) in V6. The lead channel shares V2, so I would have something like a couple of Mullards (normal gain) and another high gain Black Plate in V5.



Pretty fool proof bunch there. Great chance for a payoff in tone to happen me thinks.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

racko7566 said:


> Hey cuda, I have almost the same line up but I have an amperex instead of the tele.. and I love the sound. And I hear the tele sounds better. Hope to try one sometime.



I just got a Amperex in this week. I am not sure were to try it. The setup I got from Marty is just awesome.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here's to my good friend and online buddie...Joe Hulsey. 2000 and 2000 more.



Spank you very much me friend!!!!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Hey cuda, I have almost the same line up but I have an amperex instead of the tele.. and I love the sound. And I hear the tele sounds better. Hope to try one sometime.



Strictly a matter of opinion. I still run an Amperex (Philips) in two of my amps. The Telefunken has always been popular, but it isn't the right tube for all applications.


----------



## solarburn

Cudacrazy72 said:


> I just got a Amperex in this week. I not sure were to try it. The setup I got from Marty is just awesome.



First 2 slots. Move it around and see. Have fun with it!

The set up you have is tight! I love it in mine.


----------



## steveb63

Hi Everyone

Looking to try out some new tubes in my Marshall 2061 Re-Issue.

Currently have the JJ's, nothing wrong, but was thinking some better glass might give me a little longer life, and maybe influence the tone?

Play single coil strat types 90% of the time, occasionally my LP copy.

Typical classic, blues type rock, do like higher gain now and then, use a boost or odrive for that.

Like to run it dimed, and not worried about clean tones, have that covered with an a/b switch and a re-issue 1959 SL!

For pedals I use an OCD, TScreamer, MXR Phase, Boss D Dlay.

I hope this info helps.

Thanks, 
steveb63


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I had to look at the schematic on that amp. This is the little 20 watt head with 2, 12AX7's and 2, EL84's. I verified that neither 12AX7 is used as a PI tube. However, this is a two channel amp, correct? I mean you can't switch between them (without an ABY box), but it has a lead and bass voicing.

My schematic was pretty distorted, but it seems that the two preamp tubes are connected together. However, I'm not 100 percent sure if the two tubes are cascaded. It looks like all the tone control is done "after" V1 and in front of V2. It also looks like the output of V2 is feeding the EL84's. Seeing that, I would say that both tubes are important.

If I was running CP tubes, I would use a Tung-Sol 12AX7 in V1 and a Mullard RI in V2. If I was running NOS, I would probably run a solid Mullard and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2.

Also, there is a real good chance that you have JJ EL84's in your amp. I would recommend trying the online tube stores for some old Russian EL84's. These tubes are reasonably priced and sound really good. Much better than the JJ's. I had a bunch for sale. but they are all gone. If you are interested in some used NOS tubes, you can PM me for prices.


----------



## solarburn

steveb63 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> Looking to try out some new tubes in my Marshall 2061 Re-Issue.
> 
> Currently have the JJ's, nothing wrong, but was thinking some better glass might give me a little longer life, and maybe influence the tone?
> 
> Play single coil strat types 90% of the time, occasionally my LP copy.
> 
> Typical classic, blues type rock, do like higher gain now and then, use a boost or odrive for that.
> 
> Like to run it dimed, and not worried about clean tones, have that covered with an a/b switch and a re-issue 1959 SL!
> 
> For pedals I use an OCD, TScreamer, MXR Phase, Boss D Dlay.
> 
> I hope this info helps.
> 
> Thanks,
> steveb63



So you have JJ ECC83S's and JJ EL84's?

I see the amp is cathode biased so power tube changes are plug and play.

Is the amp bright, dark or are you able to get a good balance of both?


----------



## solarburn

I use RFT EL84's in my Monza. Used them in my Night Train too. Tubes are great for blues/rock. Great overdrive to them and if you dime the amp then you will be in their sweet spot.

Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.

I was thinking Telefunken in V1 and a Mullard in V2. I see Marty beat me to it. His CP suggestions are what I like as well.


----------



## steveb63

Thanks for the replies

Yes it is cascaded, and have some tung-sols at home, use them in my Fender and very happy. Will give them a try.

Yes they are JJec833 and JJel84's, as I said nothing bad to say, just think there might be alternative's.

It is a plug and play, but as I understand it, these tubes run hot and I must at least verify the idle current? One reason I'm posting is to feel this out, not too tech savvy.

I was just hooked back up with my amp guy (Thanks Marty) so wanted to purcahse tubes before I bring it to him.

Marty, I will get back to you tonight or tomorrow re: pm for tubes. By reading the posts on this subject I think the proper term is enabler? lol

Thanks Again

steveb63


----------



## makae

Matched Pair 1960 Raytheon 12AX7 A Audio Preamp Tubes - eBay (item 150419069001 end time Mar-07-10 16:09:33 PST)

Are these good enough for v2 on a dsl 2000?
I can't seem to fing a high gain example anywhere.

Thanks.


----------



## solarburn

steveb63 said:


> Thanks for the replies
> 
> Yes it is cascaded, and have some tung-sols at home, use them in my Fender and very happy. Will give them a try.
> 
> Yes they are JJec833 and JJel84's, as I said nothing bad to say, just think there might be alternative's.
> 
> It is a plug and play, but as I understand it, these tubes run hot and I must at least verify the idle current? One reason I'm posting is to feel this out, not too tech savvy.
> 
> I was just hooked back up with my amp guy (Thanks Marty) so wanted to purcahse tubes before I bring it to him.
> 
> Marty, I will get back to you tonight or tomorrow re: pm for tubes. By reading the posts on this subject I think the proper term is enabler? lol
> 
> Thanks Again
> 
> steveb63



Hi Steve. Lots of players like the JJ's. The 84's have a good rep and I have found them good in 2 amps and average in another. There are plenty of alternatives to JJ ECC83S's. For me its easy cause I have a drawer full of preamp tubes. A safe bet would be the Tung Sols or Mullard. You could even put a JJ in the PI/V2 and use one of the other's mentioned for V1. I'd move em' around and see. Hell you only have to slots to roll. Easy job.

Ask the highlighted query in the "work bench" section on the site. You will get some techs helping out there. Course Marty is invaluable as well.

My Night Train is cathode biased and it gets really hot. I can smell that OT cook'n up the paint. Its got big iron on it especially for a 15 watter.


----------



## Cudacrazy72

Tube hunting can get addicting. I think I got the bug...


----------



## solarburn

Hi! My name is Joe and I am a "Tube aholic".

I blame Marty mostly. He makes them sound like hot babes that will actually go out with you... AND put out!

So you see my friends...its not my fault! Oh man I'm jonezn for a Mullard!:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

makae said:


> Matched Pair 1960 Raytheon 12AX7 A Audio Preamp Tubes - eBay (item 150419069001 end time Mar-07-10 16:09:33 PST)
> 
> Are these good enough for v2 on a dsl 2000?
> I can't seem to fing a high gain example anywhere.
> 
> Thanks.



These tubes test at what they call nominal. Based on the tester used, these would not be considered high gain tubes. Sorry.

Keep looking and post up an EBAY link and I will let you know if it is a good tube. I know all of the different tube testers and I can interpret the test results.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hi! My name is Joe and I am a "Tube aholic".
> 
> I blame Marty mostly. He makes them sound like hot babes that will actually go out with you... AND put out!
> 
> So you see my friends...its not my fault! Oh man I'm jonezn for a Mullard!:Ohno:



Wow Joe, you have had romantic encounters with your tubes? And you have a bunch of them. Gee, you must be tired a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cudacrazy72 said:


> I got a Telefunken for V1 a Raytheon BP for V2 and 2 Sylvania for V3 & V4.



You and Lisa are basically running the same setup, but she already had some good tubes for V3 and V4. (RCA's.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah ha! Back to the scene of the crime. You get in any trouble last night?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

No, no trouble. The band met at a bar and we are hoping to get a gig there. I think we were as good as the band that was playing. We did stay late. I had a good time and ran into some old friends and that always leads to a little more drinking. I had a slight buzz this morning, so I dropped a couple of Tylenols and went back to bed. Yeah, getting up at around mid afternoon is definitely a rocker's schedule. But hey, it's Saturday.

(YAWN!)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

So everybody is gone today except you. Alan is off to buy gear and Joe is probably lying down horizontally (after doing his tube ritual). You said he works nights, right? Well I hope Alan finds a good amp.

Well, I may cruise the boards for a little bit, I'm still a little foggy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, take care. Maybe I'll see you later. I have a few things I am going to do and then I have to be here because I get so many PM's that if I don't answer them, it locks up my Mailbox.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Wowwy! I'm over 50 posts. I'm a long-timer.

Bye!


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Wow Joe, you have had romantic encounters with your tubes? And you have a bunch of them. Gee, you must be tired a lot.



Doh!


Nice one Lisa hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got to watch Lisa. She has an eye for seeing what has been posted. I'm waiting for her to get me for something I said.

Please, pretty please...don't. I'll be good (for at least the next 30 minutes).


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You got to watch Lisa. She has an eye for seeing what has been posted. I'm waiting for her to get me for something I said.
> 
> Please, pretty please...don't. I'll be good (for at least the next 30 minutes).




Yeah she turned that around on me good. I'm proud of her(tear in eye).


----------



## rjohns1

Ok guys, got my Toshiba Raytheon 12ax7 today. I really like it. It was made in 1965, and let's put it this way. I pulled the mullard out of the v2 slot in my 6100 and put this in, and it is staying there. Great tone, it is slightly less gain, but it is way quieter. I turned the gain up a notch, got the same amount os saturation in the red channel, but a lot less hiss. Great tube.


----------



## Darrenw5094

rjohns1 said:


> Ok guys, got my Toshiba Raytheon 12ax7 today. I really like it. It was made in 1965, and let's put it this way. I pulled the mullard out of the v2 slot in my 6100 and put this in, and it is staying there. Great tone, it is slightly less gain, but it is way quieter. I turned the gain up a notch, got the same amount os saturation in the red channel, but a lot less hiss. Great tube.



Black plate or grey plate ?


----------



## solarburn

Great result then rj!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's great. That V2 is a very important slot. I'm wondering if the tube is fairly balanced and what difference there would be if you ran an unbalanced tube in V2? V2A is first gain for Lead and V2B is first gain for Crunch. I've often wondered if the V2 tube was balanced, that it would make for a smoother transition between the Crunch and Lead channels? If one side was hotter, it would slam the next tube. So say the tube is hotter in V2B. This means it hits V6 with a higher gain signal. Now if V2A is lower gain, it hits V3, V4 and V5 with a lower signal. 

Actually, I find these amps to be very intriguing. There are all sorts of possibilities, even more so than a 2205/10.

Glad you like your tube. We haven't had many Toshiba's here.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Who is joshuaaewallen? Where is he?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh started this thread. I sort of took it over. He was the original crew member. Things were different back then, say up until September 2009. Josh ran into some personal issues and he told us what they were and then he split. He has been back a few times since then. Maybe you will meet him.

He could take the best pictures and he had a great sense of humor. Remember me telling you about how important humor is to me? Josh was that and more. I consider him to be an absent friend, but a friend nonetheless.


----------



## RiverRatt

Back from Memphis and I am beat. Time for some recreationals. Marty, I won't be needing that 6P14P anymore... I tried a lot of the smaller 15-watt amps and just didn't hear anything I really liked. I wanted something a little louder and fuller and the little amps just didn't have it. I found this 1994 Fender Super amp at GC in the used section. I traded in an EH Nano Clone ($10 trade-in value) and got the amp for $465. First Fender amp I've owned in ages but it sounds really nice, and it's still small enough to throw in the back seat and go with it. Now I have to figure out what all those tubes do.

I did find a sweet little Studio 15 that sounded great, though. I almost went with it, but it pretty much only did one sound.


----------



## rjohns1

Marty, the Toshiba tested as follows: 275/300. seller said good was 200. So I guess it is slightly unbalanced. I just like the tone.


----------



## rjohns1

Darren, it is as grey plate. I also have a black plate USA Raytheon. It is in the V1 slot of my 6100.


----------



## Stymie13

Got a glorious set of tubes to try in my DSL (thanks Marty!!) but haven't had a chance yet. This is my first opportunity to try our _*real *_vintage tubes. I was planning on doing some rollin' this weekend, but haven't been able to. Lost my studio space and can't really open up my amp at home because my neighbors suck. I'll post my findings as soon as I can!!


----------



## Darrenw5094

Stymie13 said:


> Got a glorious set of tubes to try in my DSL (thanks Marty!!) but haven't had a chance yet. This is my first opportunity to try our _*real *_vintage tubes. I was planning on doing some rollin' this weekend, but haven't been able to. Lost my studio space and can't really open up my amp at home because my neighbors suck. I'll post my findings as soon as I can!!



What tubes did you go for?


----------



## Stymie13

I got a smooth and ribbed Tele, a Philips Electrohome, a pair of RCA Mullards, an Amperex, Masushita, and a Raytheon BP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was looking for some material here on the back pages and found the "wanker man." Always good for a laugh.



Ah-ah-ah...choo!


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> You got to watch Lisa. She has an eye for seeing what has been posted. I'm waiting for her to get me for something I said.
> 
> Please, pretty please...don't. I'll be good (for at least the next 30 minutes).



Marty just wait til she makes it to the Backstage.. DOH :Ohno:


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright. Just snagged this for $4.99. Now, what the hell is it? It flashes, has smooth plates, and a 45° getter. It just about has to be an Ei, but I've never seen one with that getter. I'll post a better pic when I get it.


----------



## racko7566

Stymie13 said:


> I got a smooth and ribbed Tele, a Philips Electrohome, a pair of RCA Mullards, an Amperex, Masushita, and a Raytheon BP.



Wow Stymie, you hit the jackpot with those babies. Be sure to let us Know what you think of the different combonations.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys.. I was given a couple of old tubes yesterday.. Wandering what your opinions are. One is an RCA 12AX7A and the other is an RCA 7025. and i checked them out in my black heart today and they are not dead. But i did notice that on the 7025 that you could see the RCA emblem before i put it in the BH then afterwards its was wore off.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys.. I was given a couple of old tubes yesterday.. Wandering what your opinions are. One is an RCA 12AX7A and the other is an RCA 7025. and i checked them out in my black heart today and they are not dead. But i did notice that on the 7025 that you could see the RCA emblem before i put it in the BH then afterwards its was wore off.



Yeah those labels will rub right off. I like the RCA 12AX7A's. That was one of the first tubes I got from Marty when I first started rolling NOS. Its balanced to my ears and I really noticed it on the clean side where I felt the notes had become rounder and warmer. Again not night and day change but notable and pleasant especially playing blues and classic rock stuff.

I still have it and use it. My 7025's screamed at me and I thought that was rude of them. I had one work for awhile and it helped the clean tones.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah those labels will rub right off. I like the RCA 12AX7A's. That was one of the first tubes I got from Marty when I first started rolling NOS. Its balanced to my ears and I really noticed it on the clean side where I felt the notes had become rounder and warmer. Again not night and day change but notable and pleasant especially playing blues and classic rock stuff.
> 
> I still have it and use it. My 7025's screamed at me and I thought that was rude of them. I had one work for awhile and it helped the clean tones.




So they are good for clean tones? Not good in a Marshall?


----------



## BluesRocker

I took some pics hoping marty would be around to tell me a lil bit about them.. hrmm oh well he will be around sooner or later.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> So they are good for clean tones? Not good in a Marshall?



No no. Thats what I had it in. Smoothed out the gain or warmed it up a tad on lead 1 and the classic gain on the green channel improved. Course this happens when you take a high gain CP tube out of V1 and put in an RCA12AX7A. Liked it in V1 & V2. 

Try it to see. Only way to know.


----------



## racko7566

Are the 12ax7a and the 7025 really similar tubes?


----------



## BluesRocker

racko7566 said:


> Are the 12ax7a and the 7025 really similar tubes?



thats what i have heard i dont know yet.. when i tried them out in the BH the 7025 seemed to be a little bit lower volume than the 12ax7a.. maybe the 7025 may not be as "hot" per'se than the 12ax7a i dunno.. only time will tell


----------



## thrawn86

Just got my pack today Marty....thanx! I'm gonna run them soon....maybe tonight.  I think I would have had them on Saturday like you thought, except that the postman put it in my neighbor's box instead. This is the second time they've done that. Good thing my neighbor is honest and cool.


----------



## solarburn

No. The 7025 is suppose to be quieter and a cleaner 12AX7.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Just got my pack today Marty....thanx! I'm gonna run them soon....maybe tonight.  I think I would have had them on Saturday like you thought, except that the postman put it in my neighbor's box instead. This is the second time they've done that. Good thing my neighbor is honest and cool.



Looking forward to hearing what you got and how they sound thrawny!


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey joe what positions would you put those rca's v1 for the 12ax7a and v2 for the 7025. in my Vintage modern that is.


----------



## racko7566

thrawn86 said:


> Just got my pack today Marty....thanx! I'm gonna run them soon....maybe tonight.  I think I would have had them on Saturday like you thought, except that the postman put it in my neighbor's box instead. This is the second time they've done that. Good thing my neighbor is honest and cool.



Dude, they did the same f%&kin thing to me when my tubes came from Marty. makes ya wanna go postal on postman.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hey joe what positions would you put those rca's v1 for the 12ax7a and v2 for the 7025. in my Vintage modern that is.



I'm not familiar with how the gain works in the VM's preamp. How it utilizes the 12AX7's. In mine I would roll them in V1 and V2, bouncing them back and forth to see. I ended up preferring the 12AX7A cause it improved the gain side. Made it a little less fizzy or hairy. Warmer and rounder is how i like to describe it's effect across both channels.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Dude, they did the same f%&kin thing to me when my tubes came from Marty. makes ya wanna go postal on postman.



What is up with that!? Sheesh!

Both of you too...


----------



## BluesRocker

well all i use on the VM is the HDR which uses both V1 and V2.. i went ahead and put the 12ax7a in V1 and the 7025 in V2.. gettin ready to crank her up


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> well all i use on the VM is the HDR which uses both V1 and V2.. i went ahead and put the 12ax7a in V1 and the 7025 in V2.. gettin ready to crank her up



Ok cool. Best way to find out is do it. Let me know what you find so I can compare results.

I'm trying to remember if I used both of these at the same time like you are. Definitely spent some time on them though with other combinations. I'm willing to bet it smooths the gain out a bit...


----------



## thrawn86

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What is up with that!? Sheesh!
> 
> Both of you too...



At least it wasn't out front in the rain. They sent my UI paperwork to my neighbor too. That stuff has to be filled out and returned on time or you get screwed. I got that back in time, but it was a few days since my neighbor didn't check it.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> At least it wasn't out front in the rain. They sent my UI paperwork to my neighbor too. That stuff has to be filled out and returned on time or you get screwed. I got that back in time, but it was a few days since my neighbor didn't check it.



Wow. Is your place a few too extra steps away?:eek2:


----------



## thrawn86

It's all in a box at the end of the street. Reasonable size packages can go in the side boxes, but we don't have them right on our houses.


----------



## BluesRocker

Update on the tubes. Using both as stated above warmed up the tone quite a bit. But it took some gain out of it. going to try the 12ax7a in V1 now and a mullard RI in v2


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> It's all in a box at the end of the street. Reasonable size packages can go in the side boxes, but we don't have them right on our houses.



Dude needs to get it right.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Update on the tubes. Using both as stated above warmed up the tone quite a bit. But it took some gain out of it. going to try the 12ax7a in V1 now and a mullard RI in v2



Yep. Both lower gain 12AX7's. Knew this would happen.

In fact mix them with a higher gain tube like you are doing.


----------



## BluesRocker

with that settin i got that classic warm cranked marshall sound with a tad more gain..with the mullard in V2 i noticed more of a growl and a bit more mids and treble


----------



## BluesRocker

More updates.. I put a Tung-Sol in V1, the RCA 12AX7A in V2 , the RCA 7025 in V3 and an EH12AX7 in the PI and wow.. awesome tone


----------



## thrawn86

Here they are:




(Left to Right)
V1: Philips EH
V2: Raytheon Black Plate
V3: GE Longplate
V4: Sylvania


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> More updates.. I put a Tung-Sol in V1, the RCA 12AX7A in V2 , the RCA 7025 in V3 and an EH12AX7 in the PI and wow.. awesome tone



Awesome. Have fun!


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Left to Right)
> V1: Philips EH
> V2: Raytheon Black Plate
> V3: GE Longplate
> V4: Sylvania



Nice grouping. Totally understand why hehe.


----------



## BluesRocker

I'm still going to be swapping out and checking out more tones. I am writing down results so i wont forget


----------



## solarburn

Got to go do some errands. Catch up with you guys later!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I'm still going to be swapping out and checking out more tones. I am writing down results so i wont forget




Very smart thing to do.


----------



## RiverRatt

racko7566 said:


> Are the 12ax7a and the 7025 really similar tubes?



They are essentially the same tubes. A 7025 tests good for noise and microphonics, but is not necessarily a lower gain tube. Construction-wise they are the same as any other 12AX7. I've had a couple that were labeled as 7025A.

Edit: I have no idea how this got so far away from the post I replied to. Strange...


----------



## racko7566

RiverRatt said:


> They are essentially the same tubes. A 7025 tests good for noise and microphonics, but is not necessarily a lower gain tube. Construction-wise they are the same as any other 12AX7. I've had a couple that were labeled as 7025A.
> 
> Edit: I have no idea how this got so far away from the post I replied to. Strange...



Its called smooth buzz and paced typing..  

I did think my 7025 and my 12ax7a sounded identical... but I guess its all in how high each tube tests.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Dude, they did the same f%&kin thing to me when my tubes came from Marty. makes ya wanna go postal on postman.



I can't believe that. That is ridiculous. Can they not read the address on the package and match it to the proper box? I told my mail carrier about what happened with Racko. If I went down and bitched again, they would probably start loosing my mail.


----------



## racko7566

In theory could you have a high gain tube that tested 70%, A mid gain tube that tested 100% and a lower gain tube that tested 120%, and have them all sound the same?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Left to Right)
> V1: Philips EH
> V2: Raytheon Black Plate
> V3: GE Longplate
> V4: Sylvania



Yes, you may have picked up on why I decided on this lineup Joe. If not, these are going in a 401, so I went with a short plate Philips in V1 so that it would make it over the long haul.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't believe that. That is ridiculous. Can they not read the address on the package and match it to the proper box? I told my mail carrier about what happened with Racko. If I went down and bitched again, they would probably start loosing my mail.



This is not you postman's fault; it's ours. They must consult a voodoo skull or magic jewel to figure out which mystical portal (read: Individual Mail Boxes) to put my stuff in. This isn't the first time it happened. All is well. These babies are keen.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't believe that. That is ridiculous. Can they not read the address on the package and match it to the proper box? I told my mail carrier about what happened with Racko. If I went down and bitched again, they would probably start loosing my mail.



yea I dont think bitching gets you very far with any federal service.
cough...IRS...cough... Shit, here they come, runnnnnnnn Forest.......


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> In theory could you have a high gain tube that tested 70%, A mid gain tube that tested 100% and a lower gain tube that tested 120%, and have them all sound the same?



No. If they were tested, they would have to have the correct properties to make them high gain. A high gain would test above the standard specs. If a perfect 12AX7 is 100-100, a high gain would be 115-115. 

We have talked about this in the past. Say that you do have a perfect 12AX7 with a gain of 100-100. You use it for three years and it gets tested again and it is now 70-70. Well a brand new 5751 has a perfect gain of 70-70, so your 12AX7 in essence is now a 5751. This is why an NOS tube is worth the money. For the most part they last forever. Yes we have all had a few die on us, but I wasn't there when they died. Personally, I have only had three tubes die on me in five years. I said in an post that I had a guy that was thrilled with the sound of his Fender amp with two worn out RCA D-Getters. I think they tested (on my tester) 15-14 and 16-14. You never throw out a 12AX7. You replace them and keep the worn out one's for some other application.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Left to Right)
> V1: Philips EH
> V2: Raytheon Black Plate
> V3: GE Longplate
> V4: Sylvania



Oh and one other thing, the GE is a triple mica. Too bad Raytheon didn't make a triple mica BP.

Great photo BTW.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> No. If they were tested, they would have to have the correct properties to make them high gain. A high gain would test above the standard specs. If a perfect 12AX7 is 100-100, a high gain would be 115-115.
> 
> We have talked about this in the past. Say that you do have a perfect 12AX7 with a gain of 100-100. You use it for three years and it gets tested again and it is now 70-70. Well a brand new 5751 has a perfect gain of 70-70, so your 12AX7 in essence is now a 5751. This is why an NOS tube is worth the money. For the most part they last forever. Yes we have all had a few die on us, but I wasn't there when they died. Personally, I have only had three tubes die on me in five years. I said in an post that I had a guy that was thrilled with the sound of his Fender amp with two worn out RCA D-Getters. I think they tested (on my tester) 15-14 and 16-14. You never throw out a 12AX7. You replace them and keep the worn out one's for some other application.



Thanks Marty, gothcha. Daaa I do remember reading that like 1500 posts ago.


----------



## thrawn86

Thanx Marty....'Close Up' function on my cheap digital cam. No flash. LED headlamp for illumination.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> They are essentially the same tubes. A 7025 tests good for noise and microphonics, but is not necessarily a lower gain tube. Construction-wise they are the same as any other 12AX7. I've had a couple that were labeled as 7025A.
> 
> Edit: I have no idea how this got so far away from the post I replied to. Strange...



Very true. I had a high gainer 7025 too. My other 2 were not and reflected that in the amp. Very similar to the 12AX7A.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, you may have picked up on why I decided on this lineup Joe. If not, these are going in a 401, so I went with a short plate Philips in V1 so that it would make it over the long haul.



Well I like the tube choices and wise choice using a short plate for V1 in a combo. Of course you know this but others should pick up on that now. Help keep the microphonics at bay in a combo's tube rattling environment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Very true. I had a high gainer 7025 too. My other 2 were not and reflected that in the amp. Very similar to the 12AX7A.



I have got some RCA and Philips 7025's that are very high gain. Now we have all been running high gain tubes in V3 and V4. I have actually been running tubes as high as 38-38. Jon W. says there are limits as to what these circuits can take, so I don't recommend using a 41-44 for a PI tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have got some RCA and Philips 7025's that are very high gain. Now we have all been running high gain tubes in V3 and V4. I have actually been running tubes as high as 38-38. Jon W. says there are limits as to what these circuits can take, so I don't recommend using a 41-44 for a PI tube.



So you are saying that the PI has to be a very low gain 12AX7?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

thrawn86 said:


> Here they are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Left to Right)
> V1: Philips EH
> V2: Raytheon Black Plate
> V3: GE Longplate
> V4: Sylvania



That's a nice selection, Thrawn. I hope they sing in your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> So you are saying that the PI has to be a very low gain 12AX7?



No. You can run tubes that are what I call high gain. Conventional numbers would be 115-115. We are all used to my tester and on it high gain is like 29-29 on up. So, I am running a 35-37 right now in the PI and a 31-33 in the V3 slot.

Just so you know, we found out that is most cases, a 35-35 tube is the max in the gain stages of V2. In fact 35-35 is usually too much. The magic number seems to be 29 or 30 with most tubes going in V2. V1 is usually 25 to 27.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello Lisa. I just put up a post and saw you were on.


----------



## BluesRocker

ok i put my mullard in the PI in the VM and its a 105-110 and u were saying 41-44 and i was like OHH SHIT! so yeah thanks for the info. Those RCA's that i got this weekend, i dont know what they test out at cause i dont have a tester. any idea on what they could be?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Okay, I'm reading all of these new threads and trying to remember who are the regulars here. Did Allen get an amp yesterday?

Also, what's a short plate and a triple mica? Sounds like breakfast at Denny's.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Lisa. I am a regular to this forum, but not this thread. I actually came to this thread cause I was wanting some info on some tubes that were given to me this weekend. But glad to meet ya.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> ok i put my mullard in the PI in the VM and its a 105-110 and u were saying 41-44 and i was like OHH SHIT! so yeah thanks for the info. Those RCA's that i got this weekend, i dont know what they test out at cause i dont have a tester. any idea on what they could be?



Yeah, if you are over here a lot, we go by my tester. It is a B and K 707. Nice and accurate. Every tester had its own meter range. Some go to 3000 and mine goes to 120, but on a 5751 or 12AX7 it reads on the short end of the meter. Most of my 12AX7's are between 22 and 35. 22 represents what they call "nominal" and 35 is a very high gain tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I have cruised threw here a few times, but never posted. I have found some very good info. I am very glad it has kept going as long as it has.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Okay, I'm reading all of these new threads and trying to remember who are the regulars here. Did Allen get an amp yesterday?
> 
> Also, what's a short plate and a triple mica? Sounds like breakfast at Denny's.



Well there are a few that are regulars and you will soon see who they are. 

Allen is Alan Murray. Yes he did pick up an amp. Hold on and I will get a copy of what he sent me.

It looks like a blackface Super Reverb with that silver sparkle grillcloth. From a short distance away, you wouldn't notice the difference. Yeah, this bitch will cut, too. I've been using both pickups on the LP with the neck tone rolled off. On the Marshall, this gives you a quacky, P90, compressed sounding tone. With the Fender, it is smoky blues. I've been using a Rat distortion and a phaser with it and it's vintage Steve Jones. The gain channels gets you that Neil Young Live Rust tone. I've dialed in some decent Stevie Ray overdrive and it'll even do a pretty convincing Dick Dale tone. Some of the reviews I've read have been bad as far as reliability/construction, but nobody has complained about the way it sounds. The pot that was causing it to cut out seems to be working itself out pretty well with use, too. I'm about 90% convinced that it was the right purchase, but you never know until you fit it into your rig. Unless I run across something seriously wrong, I think it's a keeper.

The plates are the long, thin strips of metal in the tube. There are three basic sizes, long, medium and short. The short plate tubes work better in combos, because they are less prone to microphonics (tube howl/scream). The shorter construction makes for a sturdier mount for the plates and keeps the plates rigid.

Now the triple mica is a term that refers to the mica insulated spacers that actually help hold all of the components together. Look at Thrawn's tubes. The second one from the right is a GE. If you notice the flat material at the top of the tube, this is the mica. However, to make it stronger, they put two there. Look real close and you can see it. Then look at the other tubes. You can tell there is just one on the top and bottom. Triple mica's always refer to two mica layers at the top of the tube.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Lisa. I am a regular to this forum, but not this thread. I actually came to this thread cause I was wanting some info on some tubes that were given to me this weekend. But glad to meet ya.



Nice to meet you too BR. So far this is my favorite place. Marty helped me get some tubes and I really appreciated the help. I just want to learn more about how tubes and the amps work. That way if someone asks, I can actually answer them. See, I already learned about plates.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Sorry, "Alan."


----------



## BluesRocker

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Nice to meet you too BR. So far this is my favorite place. Marty helped me get some tubes and I really appreciated the help. I just want to learn more about how tubes and the amps work. That way if someone asks, I can actually answer them. See, I already learned about plates.



Yeah Marty, is a stand up guy. I was wanting some tubes for my blackheart and he sent me some and I will say that the next time I buy tubes it will be from him. And he has helped me with some other issues along with Jon Wilder. I check this place everyday, every time i get on the computer this forum is usually open within minutes. Everyone around here is really helpful, I think that you will find a nice little home ,like everyone else, here on the Marshall forum.


----------



## thrawn86

Rockin_Lisa said:


> That's a nice selection, Thrawn. I hope they sing in your amp.



Thanx Lisa.

I am a regular on the Forum as well, but not always in this thread. I juggle the job of First Responder/Receptionist (since I grab the newbs and show them where to go most of the time  ) as well as the CFC (Clean Forum Clown......not like Marty there....... )

Lemme put things this way: I played the amp on Saturday with my newly aquired NOS Mullard EL84's and just my standard preamp tubes.

 Totally blown away.

I can only imagine what it's going to be like with the new section installed. Someone may have to break out the defibrilator when I'm through.



(PS.....Marty: I played my brother's standard Strat through my amp yesterday. I have G.A.S. again.)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I just left a post about a guy that had AMP GAS really bad.

Well, I made my rounds and it's time to say, "Goodnight."

See ya Marty, Solar, Alan, Racko, Blues Rocker and Thrawn. I hope you all had a good weekend. Work for me tomorrow (today).


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> (PS.....Marty: I played my brother's standard Strat through my amp yesterday. I have G.A.S. again.)



My first 401 was a 1999 model with all Ei tubes. All I played through it was my Strat Plus with Gold LACE pickups. It was totally hot. I couldn't believe how fat the Strat sounded in that amp. I played Les Paul's from 1974 until 1990. Then I had my 1969 Gold Top stolen and I never played an LP again. I did buy a Gibson Explorer a while back. A 2009 model. I have to reset my 401 to different settings if I play the Explorer. It has extremely hot pickups. You damn near don't need an amp, they're so hot. 

So yeah, a Strat through a 401 is not a bad thing at all. Are you still running the stock speaker?


----------



## 7daysofhell

A problem I had with Philips valves was that the pins were 1mm shorter than normal preamp valves and would let the valve work loose in transit and the amp would cut out. Lucky I found out before gigging! It was one of my favourite v1's however.

L-R Philips Jan / RFT / Mullard 3 faves


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Sorry, "Alan."



No problem. I worked for a man for 12 years and he never got it right.


----------



## solarburn

7daysofhell said:


> A problem I had with Philips valves was that the pins were 1mm shorter than normal preamp valves and would let the valve work loose in transit and the amp would cut out. Lucky I found out before gigging! It was one of my favourite v1's however.
> 
> L-R Philips Jan / RFT / Mullard 3 faves



I have all 3 and yes I likes em' too!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm curious about the blue label Philips ECG tube. These were made in the mid to late 80's and had been modified for military application. I personally do not find the tone to be there in that particular tube. The older JAN's and WA's sound excellent. Let me hear your opinion on the blue label JAN.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just a quick note. Jade has had my Twister for six weeks and I haven't heard anything from him. I sent him and email a few days ago. He responded today and stated that, "he hadn't worked on my amp." Yes, that's right. It's just been sitting there. He included a list of things that I "hadn't done." One, he whined that I had sent the amp chassis in the head cab. I responded by saying I tried the other way, it wasn't going to work out, so I sent the entire unit...it was safer that way.

He then made it seem like I was supposed to include tubes. Wrong. He told me to either send tubes, or I could buy tubes from him. Since he told me that my NOS tubes were only good in old Fenders and that the Twister got its sound from Chinese tubes, I decided to go that route. Not once did he send me any information on this, or respond in any way.

The guy had my amp, it's worth more than a $50 set of tubes. He could have done the work and contacted me saying that it was done and could I PayPal him the payment. "I just got his PayPal info today. How did he expect me to make a payment? 

Here is my response to his bad business practice. 

Jade,

I'm really bewildered here. My amp has been sitting there for six weeks and there has been no communication and it is all my fault? Now you make a list of things that I have done wrong? I sent the chassis in the cab, as it was the "safest" way for me to do so. I spent thirty minutes trying to pack just the chassis and it wasn't going to work out.

Tubes-If you look at the prior messages you sent me, you stated to send tubes "OR" I could buy tubes from you for $50. You did not at anytime submit any form of communication to me stating that the tubes needed to be paid for "up front." The fact that I sent you the amp without preamp or power tubes should have given you a clue that I was buying them from you. The other fact is you told me that "my tubes were great for an old Fender, but not your amp." I sent it without tubes, because you said the amp was designed around specific Chinese tubes. I had to go along with this and since I want the "Twister sound," I decided that I would just get the tubes from you. Does any of this make sense to you now?

I am just now in receipt of your PayPal account. How was I to send money without it? What has got me upset is that you let my amp sit for six weeks and as a business owner, you never once thought about contacting me. Your fifty dollars has been sent. When I get the amp back, I'm sure it will do the Van Halen like in the Twister clip on the Internet. In fact, I'm counting on it.

And if you need me to throw a few more dollars your way for shipping, let me know. Please don't wait another six weeks to tell me.

Marty Overbey

Boy, shit like this really pisses me off. JADE let six weeks go by and not once did he extend the courtesy to contact me. This is not a case of miscommunication. It was a flagrant act. When he got the amp, he told me, "I got your amp." He didn't say, "Why did you send the entire unit?"

This amp better just kick the nards of a bull moose when I get it back, or I feel some bad reviews coming on.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm curious about the blue label Philips ECG tube. These were made in the mid to late 80's and had been modified for military application. I personally do not find the tone to be there in that particular tube. The older JAN's and WA's sound excellent. Let me hear your opinion on the blue label JAN.



I really like like the JP's. They mix well with others and the overdrive sounds good. I notice the highs in them to be musical and help out and it cuts through. I hear it with open chords and soloing. I'm thinking maybe higher mids at work here. Don't really notice anything dull or harsh so far. I've used them in my Marshall, Vox and Monza with good results for awhile now. I have definitely used worse. I don't like that they cost more than my RFT's but they pair up with them nicely. Good as a PI tube as well.

Yeah I've often wondered if my ears were damaged cause you found them not so good hehe. Oh well...we seem to be on the same page on the others. Weird though.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just a quick note. Jade has had my Twister for six weeks and I haven't heard anything from him. I sent him and email a few days ago. He responded today and stated that, "he hadn't worked on my amp." Yes, that's right. It's just been sitting there. He included a list of things that I "hadn't done." One, he whined that I had sent the amp chassis in the head cab. I responded by saying I tried the other way, it wasn't going to work out, so I sent the entire unit...it was safer that way.
> 
> He then made it seem like I was supposed to include tubes. Wrong. He told me to either send tubes, or I could buy tubes from him. Since he told me that my NOS tubes were only good in old Fenders and that the Twister got its sound from Chinese tubes, I decided to go that route. Not once did he send me any information on this, or respond in any way.
> 
> The guy had my amp, it's worth more than a $50 set of tubes. He could have done the work and contacted me saying that it was done and could I PayPal him the payment. "I just got his PayPal info today. How did he expect me to make a payment?
> 
> Here is my response to his bad business practice.
> 
> Jade,
> 
> I'm really bewildered here. My amp has been sitting there for six weeks and there has been no communication and it is all my fault? Now you make a list of things that I have done wrong? I sent the chassis in the cab, as it was the "safest" way for me to do so. I spent thirty minutes trying to pack just the chassis and it wasn't going to work out.
> 
> Tubes-If you look at the prior messages you sent me, you stated to send tubes "OR" I could buy tubes from you for $50. You did not at anytime submit any form of communication to me stating that the tubes needed to be paid for "up front." The fact that I sent you the amp without preamp or power tubes should have given you a clue that I was buying them from you. The other fact is you told me that "my tubes were great for an old Fender, but not your amp." I sent it without tubes, because you said the amp was designed around specific Chinese tubes. I had to go along with this and since I want the "Twister sound," I decided that I would just get the tubes from you. Does any of this make sense to you now?
> 
> I am just now in receipt of your PayPal account. How was I to send money without it? What has got me upset is that you let my amp sit for six weeks and as a business owner, you never once thought about contacting me. Your fifty dollars has been sent. When I get the amp back, I'm sure it will do the Van Halen like in the Twister clip on the Internet. In fact, I'm counting on it.
> 
> And if you need me to throw a few more dollars your way for shipping, let me know. Please don't wait another six weeks to tell me.
> 
> Marty Overbey
> 
> Boy, shit like this really pisses me off. The fucker let six weeks go by and not once did he extend the courtesy to contact me. This is not a case of miscommunication. It was a flagrant act. When he got the amp, he told me, "I got your amp." He didn't say, "Why did you send the entire unit?"
> 
> This amp better just kick the nards of a bull moose when I get it back, or I feel some bad reviews coming on.



Hope he gets it to sound good. Crazy that it was just sitting there. WTF is that about!? Saying you're gonna fix it is always nice to hear but actually doing it makes you the go to guy and sells your product. If ya can't fix it than say so but none of this in-limbo shit.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> So yeah, a Strat through a 401 is not a bad thing at all. Are you still running the stock speaker?



Don't use the Goldback unless I'm just playing quietly. I disconnect it and run my 1960 with 75's in it.

Sorry about your Twister experience. This just seems to get more and more bizarre for you. I've never heard of a 'hot rod' amp that wouldn't perform better with NOS valves. Redonkulous. Hope it seriously rocks when you get it back.


----------



## oldrunt

I was directed here from another post. Bought a used tsl 602 that has jj preamp tubes and stock power tubes. Overdrive channels are nice but clean channel sounds very brittle. I had a 602 for about 7 years before this one and loved the clean sound but this one is not so great. I play 70s music. No high gain stuff. Any input? Thanks. I play a 2009 American strat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You might want to try a triple mica JAN 5751, or regular JAN 5751. These can be had for under $25 each.

JAN-Philips 5751

Another tube would be an RCA 7025. Either one of these tubes should be used in V1 and will clean up the first gain stage.

The TSL is a high gain amp, so if you don't really use it as such, I would go with the 5751 and a regular gain 12AX7 in V2.

Oh and another thing, get rid of the JJ's. They don't sound good in a TSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Alan-Here's my latest "rare" snag.

PAIR RARE MATSUSHITA 12AD7 SUPER 12AX7 JAPANESE MULLARD - eBay (item 320496612992 end time Mar-08-10 20:08:11 PST)

item=320496612992


----------



## oldrunt

Well I guess I mean not a modern metal sound when I say not high gain. So I would be replacing all 4 preamp tubes to get rid of the jjs. Would i use the Jan Phillips for all 4 positions? Thanks.


----------



## oldrunt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You might want to try a triple mica JAN 5751, or regular JAN 5751. These can be had for under $25 each.
> 
> JAN-Philips 5751
> 
> Another tube would be an RCA 7025. Either one of these tubes should be used in V1 and will clean up the first gain stage.
> 
> The TSL is a high gain amp, so if you don't really use it as such, I would go with the 5751 and a regular gain 12AX7 in V2.
> 
> Oh and another thing, get rid of the JJ's. They don't sound good in a TSL.



Well I guess I mean not a modern metal sound when I say not high gain. So I would be replacing all 4 preamp tubes to get rid of the jjs. Would i use the Jan Phillips for all 4 positions? Thanks.


----------



## hacksaw

Hell of a thread! 


Content deleted..


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Alan-Here's my latest "rare" snag.
> 
> PAIR RARE MATSUSHITA 12AD7 SUPER 12AX7 JAPANESE MULLARD - eBay (item 320496612992 end time Mar-08-10 20:08:11 PST)
> 
> item=320496612992



Okay, you win. Another smooth plate from Japan. You know, there are so many of these things showing up, it makes you wonder. Those don't look like Ei's though. I don't think I've seen that design before. 

Did you notice the Westinghouse Japan tubes I sent you in that lot? They were smooth plates and were definitely Ei. One had the factory code. Post some pics of those when you get them in. That's a cool pair.


----------



## 7daysofhell

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I really like like the JP's. They mix well with others and the overdrive sounds good. I notice the highs in them to be musical and help out and it cuts through. I hear it with open chords and soloing. I'm thinking maybe higher mids at work here. Don't really notice anything dull or harsh so far. I've used them in my Marshall, Vox and Monza with good results for awhile now. I have definitely used worse. I don't like that they cost more than my RFT's but they pair up with them nicely. Good as a PI tube as well.



What he said.. It worked really well with my Telecasters straight in the amp. Smooth highs and broad mids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

oldrunt said:


> Well I guess I mean not a modern metal sound when I say not high gain. So I would be replacing all 4 preamp tubes to get rid of the jjs. Would i use the Jan Phillips for all 4 positions? Thanks.



I know that it is difficult to find info in this thread, because I have tried. Anyway, I personally don't know how far you want to "detune" the gain stage. A TSL is a high gain amp. If a stock TSL has too much gain, then you can bring it down with a 5751. If not that, then use a low gain 12AX7. For my TSL's, I run a Telefunken or Amperex in V1 that is of medium-high gain and then my V2 is a Raytheon High Gain Black Plate. V3 and V4 are either Sylvania Gray Plates or GE's. We have found that using high gain tubes in V3 and V4 does have an effect on the overall tone of the amp.

Now if you want to stay with current production tubes, this is my line up:
V1-Tung-Sol
V2-Mullard RI High Gain Hand Selected
V3-Electro-Harmonix
V4-Electro-Harmonix

Hope this helps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

hacksaw said:


> Hell of a thread! Martystrat54, Sorry you had communication problems with Jade.. I hope you guys can work it out.



Thanks for stopping in. I grew up in Oklahoma and Tulsa was one of my main stomping grounds.

Yeah, I'm a little confused about Jade. I saved all of my emails with him. I'm really puzzled why he would let my amp set there for six weeks. He gave an excuse, but it doesn't fly. If you think a customer has not done what you asked of them, you don't ignore them...you contact them and get the ball rolling.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, you win. Another smooth plate from Japan. You know, there are so many of these things showing up, it makes you wonder. Those don't look like Ei's though. I don't think I've seen that design before.
> 
> Did you notice the Westinghouse Japan tubes I sent you in that lot? They were smooth plates and were definitely Ei. One had the factory code. Post some pics of those when you get them in. That's a cool pair.



These are spec tubes. I can't remember who the USA company was, but these were a USA design for the ultimate 12AX7. Even though the tube market was done, they decided to make these. I'm sure you have heard all of the special tube numbers. They were all made in Japan and only for a few years, so yeah they are rare and I got them cheap.

Tried to win these overnight. What is your take on these. German made, but not Telefunkens.

4 X ECC83 TUBE GERMAN 12AX7 FAT BOTTLE ALPHA WELL MADE - eBay (item 310204217698 end time Mar-09-10 08:55:02 PST)

item=310204217698

Sort of wanted to win them, but the auction ended and I was still sacked out. Never heard of them and never have seen that construction. I think I might have seen that star mica construction, but it was on an odd tube.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for stopping in. I grew up in Oklahoma and Tulsa was one of my main stomping grounds.
> 
> Yeah, I'm a little confused about Jade. I saved all of my emails with him. I'm really puzzled why he would let my amp set there for six weeks. He gave an excuse, but it doesn't fly. If you think a customer has not done what you asked of them, you don't ignore them...you contact them and get the ball rolling.



Then you know my current stomping grounds of Broken Arrow! LOL.. how long has it been since you been here? Sure grown in weird directions!

I don't really want to get in the middle.. but I can see fault on both sides.. Sounds like you guys are out to get each other and keep the fire going.. Sure he could have worked on it.. and then just sold you the tubes he used.. I don't know how that "persmission thing" worked between you guys about the tubes. and a phone call both ways would have been good as well.. Don't wait so long to check in. 

I'd say write it off and try to start anew.. just my though anyway. I wouldn't have called him an F word publicly though.. I am sure he is pissed now too.. and that leads to nowhere but bad to worse. \

You gotta admit.. for buying a used amp, and him working on it for free was pretty cool. I don't know of anyone who would have done that. Regardless of what name is on the amp.. once it leaves the shop and in a persons posession, its up to the owners to take care of things. I hope you guys get past this and get rolling again. This is a little thing. I think.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tried to win these overnight. What is your take on these. German made, but not Telefunkens.
> 
> 4 X ECC83 TUBE GERMAN 12AX7 FAT BOTTLE ALPHA WELL MADE - eBay (item 310204217698 end time Mar-09-10 08:55:02 PST)
> 
> item=310204217698
> 
> Sort of wanted to win them, but the auction ended and I was still sacked out. Never heard of them and never have seen that construction. I think I might have seen that star mica construction, but it was on an odd tube.



The plates and the big bottle are RFT, but I've never seen that mica, either. I think I've corrupted you - you really seem to be turning up some odd ones lately!


----------



## MartyStrat54

hacksaw said:


> Then you know my current stomping grounds of Broken Arrow! LOL.. how long has it been since you been here? Sure grown in weird directions!
> 
> I don't really want to get in the middle.. but I can see fault on both sides.. Sounds like you guys are out to get each other and keep the fire going.. Sure he could have worked on it.. and then just sold you the tubes he used.. I don't know how that "persmission thing" worked between you guys about the tubes. and a phone call both ways would have been good as well.. Don't wait so long to check in.
> 
> I'd say write it off and try to start anew.. just my though anyway. I wouldn't have called him an F word publicly though.. I am sure he is pissed now too.. and that leads to nowhere but bad to worse. \
> 
> You gotta admit.. for buying a used amp, and him working on it for free was pretty cool. I don't know of anyone who would have done that. Regardless of what name is on the amp.. once it leaves the shop and in a persons posession, its up to the owners to take care of things. I hope you guys get past this and get rolling again. This is a little thing. I think.
> 
> Anyway.. the twister clip on the site was done by me and a buddy recorded here at my home studio. V30 cab, twister cranked up, frankenstrat with motorcity pups, ash body maple neck with SM57. The AC/Dc thing was done with a Atlas Les Paul/Prs cross breed guitar with HOT 17k pups with a audix i5 mic . Anyway.. I hope that helps understand the sound on the site.



Yeah I was last there six months ago. I went to the Bass Pro store for some shirts. I have a sister in the area, so I am in the Tulsa area quite a bit.

Now I appreciate that you are a new member and I did tell Jade that I belonged to this forum...did he have you sign up to check on me? I mean this is a small forum, under 10,000 members. I could have an A-Bomb tirade and it wouldn't go very far. The only person who would say anything to Jade would be you. You catch my drift? If you came here to be a part of the forum, that's great, but if you came here to troll for any "bad words" I may have said, I can save you the time and point you to the threads. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have a certain amount of clout here. I also am a business owner. I would never do to any of my customers what Jade has done to me. You may be great friends with him. I'm sure of it. However, that doesn't carry any weight between him and I. As I said, I have all of the emails he sent me. I don't plan on making them public, but I also do not like the fact that he kept my amp for six weeks and said/did nothing. And as far as fixing it? I told him, "Would you want this amp out there representing your company?" He is the one that made the offer to me. So far I am waiting on him to fulfill it.

Again, if you are here to monitor me on Jade's behalf, go right ahead. It's not going to prevent me from voicing my opinion. If he is having you monitor me, I hope he is paying you for your time.


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Hell of a thread!
> 
> For some of you who asked..  Cranked,, WFO, Scumback h75/m75 hp series in a splawn 4x12 cab.. SED EL34 tubes, Assorted preamp tubes.
> 
> Yea.. it's the..
> 
> F3 clippage.. And this is the same amp that recorded the EVH tune on the twister site. Different guitar and cab.. thats all.
> 
> 
> Martystrat54, Sorry you had communication problems with Jade.. I hope you guys can work it out.
> 
> And I like some of my ol tubes too..



Nice stash HS!


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was last there six months ago. I went to the Bass Pro store for some shirts. I have a sister in the area, so I am in the Tulsa area quite a bit.
> 
> Now I appreciate that you are a new member and I did tell Jade that I belonged to this forum...did he have you sign up to check on me? I mean this is a small forum, under 10,000 members. I could have an A-Bomb tirade and it wouldn't go very far. The only person who would say anything to Jade would be you. You catch my drift? If you came here to be a part of the forum, that's great, but if you came here to troll for any "bad words" I may have said, I can save you the time and point you to the threads. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have a certain amount of clout here. I also am a business owner. I would never do to any of my customers what Jade has done to me. You may be great friends with him. I'm sure of it. However, that doesn't carry any weight between him and I. As I said, I have all of the emails he sent me. I don't plan on making them public, but I also do not like the fact that he kept my amp for six weeks and said/did nothing. And as far as fixing it? I told him, "Would you want this amp out there representing your company?" He is the one that made the offer to me. So far I am waiting on him to fulfill it.
> 
> Again, if you are here to monitor me on Jade's behalf, go right ahead. It's not going to prevent me from voicing my opinion. If he is having you monitor me, I hope he is paying you for your time.



LOL.. dude.. no.. I've been reading here for a while.. Here and marshallampforum.com and a bunch of others.. I was happy when I read your tag line about the F3.. 

I am a Marshall amp freak like most of you guys here.. I mainly played a jcm800 aldrich mod, a ceriatone 2555 clone, 6100, and a few others, while my main amps are elmwood m60's.. I dig the preamp tubes and was readin. ( as you can see by my little stash picture) This place does show up when a person does a search on marshall forums.



I like amps more than the average bear as well.



I don't have to monitor.. I am sure Jade is doing that himself.. I will hop along.. As now I am being branded a spy.. sorry you feel that way and are a bit paranoid about me. This is all publicly available to read right? You have already made your emails public. you may do what you like.. I appreciate your clout here, As I am sure you do as well. I have read your posts, and see you are a large part of the community. I get it.. like i said I have been a reader here for a long while. you do not have to "let me in on it" what you don't know is who I am. But one this is right.. calling someone who was doing something cool for you at no charge and to turn and call them a F***ker was really not cool and all based off this thread. But it's your forum.. soo.. My apoliogies for sticking up for a internet friend.. "a little". Like I said I am sure Jade read this on his own. you do understand that, yes? Jade is a big boy.. he can defend himself. He doesn't need me.

Enjoy.. I have enjoyed reading the threads. bye.


----------



## hacksaw

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Nice stash HS!



Thank you, sir! Quite fun! I've collected most of these back in the 1970s and 80s.   I've been a good boy and haven't used too many! LOL


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Thank you, sir! Quite fun! I've collected most of these back in the 1970s and 80s.  I've been a good boy and haven't used too many! LOL



I love having a stash on hand. When I get a new amp I can run what I want in it without having to buy more tubes. Makes me giggle hehe.

My stash isn't anywhere near that though but I have a few. If only I knew back then what I know now...

You were very wise.


----------



## hacksaw

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I love having a stash on hand. When I get a new amp I can run what I want in it without having to buy more tubes. Makes me giggle hehe.
> 
> My stash isn't anywhere near that though but I have a few. If only I knew back then what I know now...
> 
> You were very wise.





I didn't know what i was doing!! I was fasinated with tubes. +1billion on changing tubes without buying! When I get a new amp in.. like you said, its great fun to contour the amp to our liking! Long plate somebrand here.. rca there.. oh yea!! thats fun!!  I am scared I will run out though!! LOL!!! 

I still need to try the original "ecc branded" 83's in the box. I have never opened them. Ok now I am more curious haha.

Well.. I am going to scoot along.. I already made a couple of uncomfortable posts  Nice chatting!


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> I didn't know what i was doing!! I was fasinated with tubes. +1billion on changing tubes without buying! When I get a new amp in.. like you said, its great fun to contour the amp to our liking! Long plate somebrand here.. rca there.. oh yea!! thats fun!!  I am scared I will run out though!! LOL!!!
> 
> I still need to try the original "ecc branded" 83's in the box. I have never opened them. Ok now I am more curious haha.
> 
> Well.. I am going to scoot along.. I already made a couple of uncomfortable posts  Nice chatting!



Ok HS. Drop by anytime man. Tubes is what this thread is all about. Luv hearing about it. Obviously you have plenty to add to the topic hehe.


----------



## hacksaw

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok HS. Drop by anytime man. Tubes is what this thread is all about. Luv hearing about it. Obviously you have plenty to add to the topic hehe.



Thanks! Btw.. where is wetville!! ?? LOL that's awesome. 

peace!


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Thanks! Btw.. where is wetville!! ?? LOL that's awesome.
> 
> peace!



Frigg'n Washington...it lives up to it.:eek2:

Great mountain biking country though.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Anybody here? Wow, it looks like I need to send Marty a PM.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello...........

Anybody here? If not, I will try back later.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello...........
> 
> Anybody here? If not, I will try back later.




Boo!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

OMG!!!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What's going on, JOE?


----------



## solarburn

Just talking to my e-buds here on the forum before I have to go to work. How's things on your end? Amp still kicking but for you with the new toobs?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You still here?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You still here?



Just getting ready to leave blossom. You have a great night and keep these guys in line!

Talk at ya later.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I left because no one was here and then you showed you and then the place was empty again.

Yeah my amp is still rocking. We practice on Thursdays. Our next gig is in about two weeks. Just a Saturday night show for two hours. It will be us and another band. Total of four sets.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Alright, I'll see you maybe tomorrow. I need to PM Marty still.


----------



## thrawn86

Just out of curiosity, RL, what do you use the 800 and the DSL for, respectively? Or do you run both simultaneously? (Not trying to hijack the thread)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

thrawn86 said:


> Just out of curiosity, RL, what do you use the 800 and the DSL for, respectively? Or do you run both simultaneously? (Not trying to hijack the thread)



The 800 was my first amp and I played in a sleaze/thrash band. It was perfect. Then I got older and got in with some different cats and we play more stuff suited to the DSL. We do some covers, but the music we play the DSL does it. I sometimes think about selling the 800, but my brother helped me get it and it is sort of like an old friend that I play every once in a while.


----------



## thrawn86

Heck yeah, don't sell it. It's like selling tools. You don't get much for them and when you need them, you just gotta buy them all over again.....except that they cost twice as much and last half as long.

What are you running for valves in those?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, I know. It may come in handy. I might want to start a Nu Metal band.

I have several sets for the 800, but I usually run Wing C EL34's.
Preamp tubes are like old American NOS my brother got for me. 

The DSL has a new line up. I had already bought RFT's and then Marty helped me get a pair of Telefunkens and a pair of Raython black plates. I was running all RCA's, so this gives me two identical sets of tubes. Telefunken in V1, Raython in V2 and RCA and RCA. It rocks. It's more articulate at louder volumes and the rhythm power chords are thick. Marty says it's the black plate as they are mid monsters. Anyway I love it. Thanks for asking.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, congratulations. You're a senior member now. 

Are ya out there hiding in the pages of the forum?

What do you call it? "Making your rounds?"


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

OMG I didn't even notice. So a 100 and you are a senior member? Wow. Now I will have to have a shot of some Green label Johnnie Walker. I can't afford the Blue. Have you ever had it? OMG it is like a simmering drink of enchantment. I've only had like six shots of it in my life. They go for over $35 a shot at the high class places. I can afford the Green, but it's still high.

Anyway, I have my shot glass in hand. Bottoms up. I'm in the big league now. I'm a senior member. No, that doesn't sound right. A senior's member. There, that's more like it.


----------



## thrawn86

You guys and your Johnny Walker. Is the Green really that good? They had Blue at Costco for like $150 'round December.

I prefer the Maker's Mark.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As Jethro Clampett used to say, "Whoo doggie!"

Yeah, I've had that blue. My god a bottle is more than most paychecks. Even more than some of the finest bourbons. If you drink all the fine scotches out there, the Green is as good as any and the Blue is simply the best.

Damn girl. Taking a shot this late at night???


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Funny you should say that. I go in to work late and stay till seven. I'm all ready for bed now. I was going to use mouthwash, but the Johnnie did the trick.

Good night fellow senior members.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Adios, Lisa.


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn that's my kind of woman. Woo hoo praise the lord. But I'll stick with my Jack Daniels though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I started drinking Jack Black when I was 15 or 16. Drank it till I was 19 and then started drinking whiskey sours with Jack Green label. Then I realized that the whiskey sours were tearing me up and I went back to Jack Black. Then at some point, I got turned on to Wild Turkey and it is my bourbon of choice, especially their special reserves. Well worth the extra dough.

Now the Blue for $150. That sounds really cheap, Thrawn.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Damn that's my kind of woman. Woo hoo praise the lord. But I'll stick with my Jack Daniels though.



I believe she is a real wildcat.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I believe she is a real wildcat.




Lets See.. Hrmm.. She plays guitar +10000, She plays a Marshall JCM800 +1 gazillion, and she drinks whiskey before she goes to bed. I wouldnt call that a wildcat Marty. I call that a great catch. Hell, if she tells me she drives a 60's to 70's muscle car or a new sports car with a V8, I do believe I will be on my way to the Badlands.


(Note to Lisa: I do apologize for any inconvenience or offense that you may have received from this post, I too have had a little to drink tonight.)


----------



## BluesRocker

But back to the thread. Marty if i wanted to get a classic Zep style tone but with more balls out of my Vintage Modern what preamps would you consider to do this? Im looking more towards ala Warren Haynes style. Not the exact tone but somewhere on the lines. You know what Im saying.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> But back to the thread. Marty if i wanted to get a classic Zep style tone but with more balls out of my Vintage Modern what preamps would you consider to do this? Im looking more towards ala Warren Haynes style. Not the exact tone but somewhere on the lines. You know what Im saying.



You know you might want to try a medium gain Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and a high gain neutral tube like a Philips 7025. That is a different tone all together.
Sort of a smoky fat sound. I came across this while trying to come up with a good blues setting. I had this in my 602 with Altec Lansing 417's and Mullard xf2 EL34's.

V1-Raytheon Black Plate
V2-Philips 7025 High Gain
V3-GE Short Black Plate
V4-GE Short Black Plate

I still roll my tubes back to this setting when I want to get that 70's rock blues punch.


----------



## BluesRocker

That is what I am looking for. About how much would that set up cost?


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, you guys were up late last night! I didn't get home until 11 p.m. and I didn't stay up that late. 

Next time everybody's in a Tennessee whiskey mood, try Dickel instead of Jack. I like Jamison's myself.


----------



## 7daysofhell

Have to try one of those 'Raytheon Black Plate' in me V1. sounds like an obscure make of Bourbon.'
Bloomin cold night here Jura Superstition keeping me warm inside though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Everybody should have at least two Raytheon BP's in their tube stash. One should be a medium gain V1 and the other should be a high gain V2.

Now there is a lot of discussion about 900's (4500DR's) on the forum right now. They basically have all solid state in front of one tube that will actually alter the tone of the amp. The best sounding tube so far is a Raytheon BP in V1 of a 4500/4100 DR.

A black plate in V1 will fatten the mids, perfect for blues and classic rock.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got a tube in the mail today, and I have to applaud the seller. The tube was in a manila envelope stuffed into the mailbox. I was expecting to hear the sound of broken glass. The tube was in a plastic bag inside a 2.5" long piece of 1-inch PVC pipe, with bubble wrap around the whole thing. I never thought of doing that, but it makes good sense. I may have to try this the next time I have to ship a batch.

The tube itself is going to take some work identifying. I'll post some pics if/when I get home tonight. It's a Philips tube with short, ribbed plates, a slant getter, and no writing at all on it. The plates have holes on both sides, and the seams don't look like a Matsushita. Marty, get your reading glasses on. This one's a toughie.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll have to compare it to my Slant Top Raytheon MIJ. I've finally am able to say for sure that if a Raytheon tube says, "Select," or "Certified," it is a MIJ tube. Usually yellow font. I think the Raytheon Slant Top is a copy of a Valvo Slant Top.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought I hit a major jackpot. I am going to upgrade a sound system in a church. The minister was pulling out some old gear to show me. He grabbed a big box and didn't know what was in it. He opened it up and it was full of tube boxes. I told him what they were and he said, "Oh those were used on the old organ. You want them?" I told him yes. However, when I finally got to take a closer look, the organ in question must have been a 1953 model. All the tubes are in boxes and are 6SN7's which for all you guys is a 6 volt twin triode on an octal base. There are some 5AR4 rectifiers as well. I will need to test them, but it looks like EBAY material to me.

Why? Why? All I want is a one massive Baldwin organ made in the early 60's. They are full of Raytheon BP's. That's all I want. One score.

Or how about a German organ full of Valvo's and Telefunken's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought I hit a major jackpot. I am going to upgrade a sound system in a church. The minister was pulling out some old gear to show me. He grabbed a big box and didn't know what was in it. He opened it up and it was full of tube boxes. I told him what they were and he said, "Oh those were used on the old organ. You want them?" I told him yes. However, when I finally got to take a closer look, the organ in question must have been a 1953 model. All the tubes are in boxes and are 6SN7's which for all you guys is a 6 volt twin triode on an octal base. There are some 5AR4 rectifiers as well. I will need to test them, but it looks like EBAY material to me.
> 
> Why? Why? All I want is a one massive Baldwin organ made in the early 60's. They are full of Raytheon BP's. That's all I want. One score.
> 
> Or how about a German organ full of Valvo's and Telefunken's.



I use a 5AR4 rectifriar in one of my amps...

How they look? Can you test those?


----------



## oldrunt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I know that it is difficult to find info in this thread, because I have tried. Anyway, I personally don't know how far you want to "detune" the gain stage. A TSL is a high gain amp. If a stock TSL has too much gain, then you can bring it down with a 5751. If not that, then use a low gain 12AX7. For my TSL's, I run a Telefunken or Amperex in V1 that is of medium-high gain and then my V2 is a Raytheon High Gain Black Plate. V3 and V4 are either Sylvania Gray Plates or GE's. We have found that using high gain tubes in V3 and V4 does have an effect on the overall tone of the amp.
> 
> Now if you want to stay with current production tubes, this is my line up:
> V1-Tung-Sol
> V2-Mullard RI High Gain Hand Selected
> V3-Electro-Harmonix
> V4-Electro-Harmonix
> 
> Hope this helps.


I am cool with the level of gain but I am interested in experimenting with lowering it a little. Never knew it could be done. More concerned with the lame clean channel than anything else. My $150 vox valetronix has a nicer clean sound and that hurts my feelings!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now there is a lot of discussion about 900's (4500DR's) ... The best sounding tube so far is a Raytheon BP in V1 of a 4500/4100 DR.



The curiosity is killing me, albeit I'm not a cat. What's a tube like that usually cost*? (I have the 4500 DR)

*Being speculative, I'm broke.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> The curiosity is killing me, albeit I'm not a cat. What's a tube like that usually cost*? (I have the 4500 DR)
> 
> *Being speculative, I'm broke.



I sell them. If you want a quote send me a PM.


----------



## solarburn

I use a 5AR4 rectifriar in one of my amps...

How they look? Can you test those?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I use a 5AR4 rectifriar in one of my amps...
> 
> How they look? Can you test those?



Hey, that old 707 test about anything worth having. Yeah, I'm going test all of them, but just so you know, I have some NOS USA 5AR4's. If you look online they are pricey, but if you want one I may sell it to ya cheap if you do the tube ritual dance in your Tarzan loin cloth.

BTW: Lisa wants to watch.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, that old 707 test about anything worth having. Yeah, I'm going test all of them, but just so you know, I have some NOS USA 5AR4's. If you look online they are pricey, but if you want one I may sell it to ya cheap if you do the tube ritual dance in your Tarzan loin cloth.
> 
> BTW: Lisa wants to watch.



She won't want to for long!

Yeah they are pricey! I just bought this recently but haven't tried it yet:

BEL GZ34 5AR4 - 1970s Rare MINT NOS NIB by Philips/Mullard OEM

I should have asked you about it first. Was a bit of an impulse buy. Anyways what do you think? PM me the price for the RCA and I'll scare the hell out of Lisa with my dance of dances.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd try it to make sure it works. I'll have to check what I paid for the one's I got. I don't know what brands they are. The may be Sylvania's in the yellow box, so they would be mid-60's production.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd try it to make sure it works. I'll have to check what I paid for the one's I got. I don't know what brands they are. The may be Sylvania's in the yellow box, so they would be mid-60's production.



I'll pop it in there on my days off and let you know. I don't want to go crazy on these cause I'd rather spend my money on some particular preamp tube(s)I want. Just wanted to see how the sag would be effected and from what I've been reading some of these NOS rectifier tubes offer great longevity.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty did you happen to get the message I sent you today about tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty did you happen to get the message I sent you today about tubes?



I thought I sent you a quote. Was it for the pair of EL34's and a high gain 12AX7?


----------



## BluesRocker

That and the set for my vintage modern. What we were talking about last night. But I didn't get your qoute that you sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got you taken care of. PM sent.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> She won't want to for long!
> 
> Yeah they are pricey! I just bought this recently but haven't tried it yet:
> 
> BEL GZ34 5AR4 - 1970s Rare MINT NOS NIB by Philips/Mullard OEM
> 
> I should have asked you about it first. Was a bit of an impulse buy. Anyways what do you think? PM me the price for the RCA and I'll scare the hell out of Lisa with my dance of dances.



My offer still stands on the RCA coke bottle 5R4 that I have - I think it'll sub in most cases for a 5AR4. Free to a good home. Of course I have no idea if it works. I'll even throw in a MIJ 5U4GB which I have no idea if it works, either. You pay the shipping and handling. Hurry, operators are standing by. This offer is limited to the first 1 callers.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> My offer still stands on the RCA coke bottle 5R4 that I have - I think it'll sub in most cases for a 5AR4. Free to a good home. Of course I have no idea if it works. I'll even throw in a MIJ 5U4GB which I have no idea if it works, either. You pay the shipping and handling. Hurry, operators are standing by. This offer is limited to the first 1 callers.



Thanks RR. I'm just going to stick with the 5AR4. Hows your new amp man? Sounding good? Whats the tube layout in it?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd try it to make sure it works.



Works good. Just got done play'n. I like it over the feel and sag of the Sovtec. I hear more bloom or better bloom. Now we will see if it lasts hehe.

Noice!

I'll save my money for the Mullard and high gain BP.


----------



## RiverRatt

As promised, here's the mystery tube. I took a shot of the top so you can see the seam. There's only the faint seam you see in the picture. Usually they make an "X" but this one only has "/". I don't have my Matsushitas so I can't tell for sure, but this doesn't look like the ones I have. Marty, there's no way in hell I'll find that picture you posted of your Raytheon/Philips Japan tube. Does it look like that? There are holes in both sides of the plate, and about the only clue I have is that the Valvos I've seen with the slant-getter are long plates and this one isn't. I'm thinking Matsushita, but I'm not 100% convinced yet. Either way, not bad for $4.99!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Thanks RR. I'm just going to stick with the 5AR4. Hows your new amp man? Sounding good? Whats the tube layout in it?



I can't even give the damned things away! I guess there's no point in sticking them on eBay. 

Man, I'm digging the fuck out of that amp! I haven't had a Fender in a long time. It's based on a '50s Bassman circuit (SS recto, yeah, yeah, blah, blah). It'll do about anything I'd want out of a Fender amp. Once I figured out what the Channel 2 gain controls were about, it was a moment of Zen. It's not cranked Marshall crunch, it's about getting that smooth, compressed Fender drive at lower volumes. 

I was really, really leaning toward either a Vox AC15C1 or a Jet City J20 but after playing some stuff in Memphis last Saturday, I kinda realized that they were just a new toy and not really what I needed. The Fender blew them out of the water and it's a workhorse of a gigging amp. I may still pick up one of the little EL84 amps, but I'm happy with the decision. I actually had a guy walk by while I was trying out the amp and said I had "good taste". WTF?!? That's never happened to me!! Another guy hung around waiting to see if I was going to buy it or not. He came up to me later and said he almost pulled the trigger but he didn't need another big amp. 

About the tubes, I put the tube chart pic below. V1 is the normal channel, V2 is the gain channel, V3 is the effects loop driver (12AT7), V4 is the reverb driver (12AT7), V5 appears to be the cathode follower, and V6 is the phase inverter. Of course, V7 and V8 are the 6L6s. You should see the glass in this thing... Fender/GT shite from V1 to V8. The 6L6s aren't even real 6L6's! They're Sovtek 5881s. I'm probably going to get some decent power tubes from Martimus after I thin the preamp tube herd a little.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I can't even give the damned things away! I guess there's no point in sticking them on eBay.
> 
> Man, I'm digging the fuck out of that amp! I haven't had a Fender in a long time. It's based on a '50s Bassman circuit (SS recto, yeah, yeah, blah, blah). It'll do about anything I'd want out of a Fender amp. Once I figured out what the Channel 2 gain controls were about, it was a moment of Zen. It's not cranked Marshall crunch, it's about getting that smooth, compressed Fender drive at lower volumes.
> 
> I was really, really leaning toward either a Vox AC15C1 or a Jet City J20 but after playing some stuff in Memphis last Saturday, I kinda realized that they were just a new toy and not really what I needed. The Fender blew them out of the water and it's a workhorse of a gigging amp. I may still pick up one of the little EL84 amps, but I'm happy with the decision. I actually had a guy walk by while I was trying out the amp and said I had "good taste". WTF?!? That's never happened to me!! Another guy hung around waiting to see if I was going to buy it or not. He came up to me later and said he almost pulled the trigger but he didn't need another big amp.
> 
> About the tubes, I put the tube chart pic below. V1 is the normal channel, V2 is the gain channel, V3 is the effects loop driver (12AT7), V4 is the reverb driver (12AT7), V5 appears to be the cathode follower, and V6 is the phase inverter. Of course, V7 and V8 are the 6L6s. You should see the glass in this thing... Fender/GT shite from V1 to V8. The 6L6s aren't even real 6L6's! They're Sovtek 5881s. I'm probably going to get some decent power tubes from Martimus after I thin the preamp tube herd a little.



Found some more info...

http://www.ampwares.com/amp.asp?id=102

I'm thinking about getting a 410 cab for the Monza. I hear the 410 cabs have a quick response to them because of the 10in speakers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's the one.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that's the one.



I don't know my Fender's well but I've never seen or heard of that model until now. From the feedback on it it seems to be a winner.

Looks like it would be a killa blues amp...?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's got a really good, smoky blues overdrive on channel 2. It's really dynamic, too. The harder you dig in, the dirtier it gets. I'd never heard of this amp either until I went shopping last weekend. I always check out the used inventory at GC online when I'm going to be near one, usually either at Nashville or Memphis. I saw this amp on the Memphis site and flagged it - I had a shopping list of amps to try when I got there. I really wanted that little Marshall Studio 15, but it didn't work out. What I like about the Fender amp is that it compliments the DSL really well. Between the two of them, you can cover a lot of tonal ground.

I've been hoping to find a Vibroverb RI that Fender made until a few years ago. If you ever run across one, try it out. It's got that SRV wall of Dumble amps sound.


----------



## solarburn

My ears!!!!!!!!!!!!

No one is home right now so I'm crank'n...I just got done rolling V1 in my Monza. Strat HSS into a 112 with a Veteran 30. I used the following:

1. JJ ECC83S-came with the amp. Dull and not dynamic while soloing. Chords were ok. Lots of background hiss. Its a high gain AX7. I think the 10in. Red Fang Alnico the combo comes with really helps the amp out while using a JJ 83S in V1. There is a notable difference compared to the other tubes tried. It did beat out the JP obviously.

2. RFT- This has what the JJ doesn't. Dynamics when soloing. Chords are thick and I like the character more too over the JJ's power chords. Both are similar cause they are a darker tube. I got shitty bloom off the JJ on bends and touch sensitive picking. At least the RFT let that come through cause thats what I got the amp for.

3. JP(Jan Philips WA)-This one took a shit on me. Fuck I hate that obnoxious hum of a bad AX7. I've had 12AX7's squeal and I've had them hum. This one was a hummer.

4. Raytheon BP- Great as usual but I have to say the Telefunken out did it especially while soloing and touch sensitive/dynamic picking. I liked the BP a bit more than the RFT.

5. Smooth plate Telefunken-Total win. Dynamic picking gets harmonics pop'n and bending notes into a singing scream happens when I want it. The bloom really comes through. This tube gave the amp much better dynamics. The noise floor was less hissy at volume. Its rated a 26/25 on Marty's tester. The overdrive is really clear and I'm getting enough saturation even though it isn't what you call a high gain AX7 like the JJECC83S or the RFT. The Telefunken makes soloing much more fun with this amp.


----------



## solarburn

I'm off to bed guys. I'll catch up later.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some quick responses.

5U4's are a dime a dozen. I have over 30 of them, all stout and USA brands and I can't sell them, so I am going to set on them. However, that may prove a bad mistake as well, because any amp tech worth a damn can convert the amp over to SS rectification and then that kills the "sitting" theory.

The info says Alan's amp is identical to the Concert Series. Does this amp have Blue Jensen's in it? If so, that's a major plus and adds to the tone of the rig.

Com'on guys. Is a Fender a blues amp? More blues players use Fender than any other brand. With the right pedal(s) you can get a Fender to scream. I gigged with two Bassman heads modifed for guitar (tone caps) and played through both of them on stage at the same time. The other cab was over by the other guitarist and wasn't turned up that loud. The other one was on my side and it was close to 3/4 cranked. Both amps pushing custom 212 cabs with custom built (by me) Celestions. This band played country rock, blues, blues rock, classic rock and then some heavier stuff. Those Bassman amps could handle it all. Did I use pedals? Sure. I had to, to get the heavier distortion. However, a Boss CE-2 going through a Bassman was just the smoothest chorus I have ever heard. Overall, I think a Fender can do a lot of the different pop sounds and country. Stuff like CCR and the Guess Who. I believe the overall range of a Fender is greater than a Marshall. With a Marshall, we talk about all of the different rock sounds it can produce. Now I will say that with my 401 on a clean setting, you could pull off country, especially with a Telecaster. However, just a we say that all the great rock songs were mostly played on Marshall, the rest were done on Fenders.

And we all know that the first Marshall's were basically Fenders. Eventually, modifications to the preamp and the choice of power tubes brought on the Marshall sound.

I do want to say Alan, that the amp looks uber clean. It must have been well taken care of.

Now Joe. Dude, why are you having so many 12AX7's go bad? You aren't bouncing them off of a concrete floor are you? Didn't one get away from you the other day. Either Alan or you was talking about one the slipped to the floor. I'm glad that my amps aren't eating tubes. Everything is running smoothly in my amps. I did have one small problem that happened to you.

When I took one of my 401's to be fixed, I decided that I would go with the NOS RCA 6BQ5's. "They had been sitting in the basement." The amp was biased and played fine. I brought it home and it sat for a half day and then I was going to play it hard. Well, I started playing and right away I got these small "pops." I looked in the back and no red plating. It popped a few more times and then stopped. It was a moisture problem in the tubes caused by them sitting on the semi-unfinished side of the basement during the winter and spring. Moral of the story? Store your tubes in a dry place. 

Do you have any ideas why you have had so many tubes go bad? I hope none of the Telefunkens go bad. They were all special tested factory tubes.

Anyway, thanks for the tube review. It is probably something we should do more of like the old days.

One last thing. What happened to WEGMAN?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, wouldn't you know it, that little unknown 12AX7 is weaker than water. Dull and lifeless with about the gain of a 5751. The seller says it was tested on a B&K 667 at 84/84. Is that good? 

BTW, I was the one bouncing tubes around. Matter of fact, it was that GE/Mullard 6681 that you said failed the shorts & emissions test... Maybe it didn't survive after all.

Yeah, I was impressed by how clean the amp was. Barely any dust in the back, looks like it's been kept in a closet for years. The speakers are Fender/Eminence Alnico Blues. I may put a couple of real Jensens P10Rs in it one of these days.

Wegman is still around. I was just wondering that very same question the other day, then I ran across a recent post in another thread. Maybe he got what he needed and left?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I use a 5AR4 rectifriar in one of my amps...
> 
> How they look? Can you test those?



Usually, rectifriars are short, fat, have the strangest haircut, and wear smelly brown frocks tied with a rope





they can be tested with big sticks!


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Marty. pm'd you
Serge


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well folks, that's what we do here. We help those in need. If you are tone chasing, you have found the right place. It doesn't hurt our feelings if we help you and then you leave. It's just part of doing what we do.

Wegman...get your ass back over here.


----------



## solarburn

30stringsandblackdog said:


> usually, rectifriars are short, fat, have the strangest haircut, and wear smelly brown frocks tied with a rope
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they can be tested with big sticks!



lol!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now Joe. Dude, why are you having so many 12AX7's go bad? You aren't bouncing them off of a concrete floor are you? Didn't one get away from you the other day. Either Alan or you was talking about one the slipped to the floor. I'm glad that my amps aren't eating tubes. Everything is running smoothly in my amps. I did have one small problem that happened to you.



Yeah lets see:
1. JJ803s-This one hummed.
2. 2 or 3 RCA 7025's. These were squealers.
3. EH 12AX7-This one hummed. I think this one I played catch with at sometime...
4. Now the Jan Philips. I've got another one some where though I just can't remember where... 

This was just last week too...

Nah this has been over a period of time. The Tele's and BP's have been fine. I will say this though. I have to push a bit more to get a preamp tube in the Monza and that can take an RFT out. They are prone to cracking if too much force is used and of course it SEEMED to hang up as I'm trying to coax it in.(thats what she said)beat you to it Wilder! So I won't be using them any more in it. I like them better in the Marshall circuit anyways.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Joe are you cracking tubes and throwing them on the floor?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Just killing a few minutes as this is band practice night.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey, Alan. I really like that amp. It looks sweet, although probably a bit too much for me to handle. People tell me I'm pretty strong and I have my Marshall gear and half stack to thank. I don't load it by myself. I'm not that strong.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Any of you tube hounds over here?

Anyone buy any exotic tubes?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, it looks like a slow night, but after all it's Thursday. I guess I'll get myself out the front door. 

Talk to you all later.


----------



## racko7566

Great Lisa, let us know how your new tubes sound in the mix after practice.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, it looks like a slow night, but after all it's Thursday. I guess I'll get myself out the front door.
> 
> Talk to you all later.



Have a good practice.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Anyone have a view on these. eBay Item #300347102350
eBay.ie: 12AX7 or 12AX7A or 12AT7WA (item 300347102350 end time 10-Apr-10 07:27:18 BST)


----------



## RiverRatt

Lisa, the new amp only weighs in at 60 lbs... I was thinking it was a lightweight! 

Darren, something doesn't smell right about that auction. That's a goofy way to sell a bunch of tubes. If they were all the same brand and type and tested the same that might work. Several of the pictures are Raytheon black plates and there's an RCA and a Sylvania. I don't know how you would get the tube you want, as the seller doesn't seem to know the difference between a 12AT7 and a 12AX7, much less the difference between RCA, Raytheon and Sylvania black plates. I'd pass on this guy.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, did you catch those test scores I posted a page ago? That bad tube was tested on a B&K 667 at 84/84. Is that good? It sure doesn't have much gain at all.


----------



## solarburn

I powered up my amp earlier and heard this gawd awful hum/screech sound and I thought WTF!...did another 12AX7 just die or is my new NOS rectifier gonna launch into space!!!!!!

No. My cord had popped halfway out of my guitar jack and I didn't notice until I turned the amp on...Speaker loved it!

Tee hee.


----------



## 7daysofhell

I did something similar recently. Put new Power tubes in my blues junior and started panicking because there was no sound when I plugged in and swiched on. after peering into the back ect i soon realised that the first lead that I had grabbed had a breaker switch in it and I hadnt noticed .....


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, did you catch those test scores I posted a page ago? That bad tube was tested on a B&K 667 at 84/84. Is that good? It sure doesn't have much gain at all.



Ah yeah I saw it and spaced out. What have I said before? People buy old RCA boxes to put used tubes in them, but they sell them as NOS/NIB. The guy could have been blowing a cold wind up your butt with those test scores. How was his feedback? Does he offer returns? I just get a little nervous when I see a tube that tests 84/84. Oh it can happen, but most of the time a little fudging goes on. Instead of eating it, I would return it if you can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I powered up my amp earlier and heard this gawd awful hum/screech sound and I thought WTF!...did another 12AX7 just die or is my new NOS rectifier gonna launch into space!!!!!!
> 
> No. My cord had popped halfway out of my guitar jack and I didn't notice until I turned the amp on...Speaker loved it!
> 
> Tee hee.



No. My cord had popped halfway out of my guitar jack and I didn't notice until I turned the amp on...Speaker loved it!

Well you stepped on your cord didn't you. The old toe of your shoe snag the line. Cords don't pop out on their own, unless improperly installed in the first place. It's okay to tell the truth, Joe. We still love you.

But now you got a good idea of what a rectifier sounds like when it is sucking its last breath.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No. My cord had popped halfway out of my guitar jack and I didn't notice until I turned the amp on...Speaker loved it!
> 
> Well you stepped on your cord didn't you. The old toe of your shoe snag the line. Cords don't pop out on their own, unless improperly installed in the first place. It's okay to tell the truth, Joe. We still love you.
> 
> But now you got a good idea of what a rectifier sounds like when it is sucking its last breath.



Yeah I stepped on it. 

Better than stepping in it!

Is that what it sounds like? Evil sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ah yeah I saw it and spaced out. What have I said before? People buy old RCA boxes to put used tubes in them, but they sell them as NOS/NIB. The guy could have been blowing a cold wind up your butt with those test scores. How was his feedback? Does he offer returns? I just get a little nervous when I see a tube that tests 84/84. Oh it can happen, but most of the time a little fudging goes on. Instead of eating it, I would return it if you can.



There wasn't a box, just the tube. The tube was listed as a smooth plate, which it wasn't. Also, the test numbers he wrote on the tube don't match what was listed in the auction. He was at like 99.6% positive, but just recently got a negative feedback for a weak tube. I'm going to give him eBay's 2 days to respond, then I'll flame his ass off. It's only a $5 tube, but selling shit for tubes and calling them good is inexcusable no matter the price. The other person who got the weak tube left bad feedback and the seller came back and called him a "noob" and said he wouldn't sell anymore tubes to a "noobie". When they revert to L33T SP34K on you, that's a good indicator as to how this will play out. Probably some punk-ass H4X0R.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

*In case you are tired of tube photos*

Last night's Daltrey/Clapton concert in Ft. Lauderdale (or Ft. Liquordale as it used to be called at the height of spring break)

















Great concert...Daltrey was strong, his band very tight...like a mini Who concert.
Clapton was a master on the blues; thank goodness he didn't do too many of his pop songs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cool. Thanks for the photos. Man...all my hero's have gray hair.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah very kewl man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I tested both of the NEC 12AD7's. One was just good (20-20) and the other was better (22-24). Now I will say that out of all of these sorts of super 12AX7 tubes MIJ, they seem to test like at 19 or higher, but not real high. I think the target gain on these tubes was lower than a 12AX7 whether or not it was advertised as such. I popped the hotter one in my DSL401 with the Red Fang speaker and it is a smooth, creamy tube. Great low end, but not boomy. Smooth midrange and then it goes right into the highs without any trouble at all. I set the clean channel up and I plugged in the RP12 and it sounded fantastic. The chorus sounds where very defined. This is a tube that would sound wonderful as the first gain stage in a high dollar HiFi. Anyway, it is a nice tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just got my tubes back and test scores, too. Some of those tubes had more life in them than I thought!

I ended up with a Sonotone/RCA side getter in V1, a Raytheon black plate, and one of those ICBM Raytheon JRPs in the phase inverter spot. What a difference! Not that it sounds bad before, but all the mids and highs are a lot easier on the ear. Marty, those Philips Japan 12AT7s are great. I didn't know that the reverb driver would make much of a difference in tone, but it's a lot smoother now. Good stuff!


----------



## Darrenw5094

Bargain preamps (sarcasm) Telefunkens. Give me the go ahead with test scores to buy these. eBay #320499998437
eBay.ie: matched Pair ECC803S <> Telefunken TESTED NOS (item 320499998437 end time 09-Apr-10 22:30:55 BST)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Darrenw5094 said:


> Bargain preamps (sarcasm) Telefunkens. Give me the go ahead with test scores to buy these. eBay #320499998437
> eBay.ie: matched Pair ECC803S <> Telefunken TESTED NOS (item 320499998437 end time 09-Apr-10 22:30:55 BST)



You buy them and I will buy one off of you. Ooh! Gold pins too!

Naw, sorry. To rich for my blood.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Darrenw5094 said:


> Bargain preamps (sarcasm) Telefunkens. Give me the go ahead with test scores to buy these. eBay #320499998437
> eBay.ie: matched Pair ECC803S <> Telefunken TESTED NOS (item 320499998437 end time 09-Apr-10 22:30:55 BST)


Not a problem...let me go through my checklist first
1) Rent...don't need to pay that..buy tent, then buy tubes
2) Food...go on diet...buy tubes
3) Electricity, water, phone, internet...dont need that...buy tubes
4) Clothing, shoes....it's Florida....shorts and flipflops will do at school...hey, it's what my students wear!...buy tubes
5) Car, car insurance....that's what bicycles and feet are for...buy tubes
That was simple now, wasn't it?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I have a large cardboard box a refrigerator came in. That would make a great two room apartment. Put a pail behind it and you have a bathroom. I can let if go for cheap.


----------



## BluesRocker

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I have a large cardboard box a refrigerator came in. That would make a great two room apartment. Put a pail behind it and you have a bathroom. I can let if go for cheap.



Does it come with NOS plugins to plug up the Marshall?


----------



## Darrenw5094

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You buy them and I will buy one off of you. Ooh! Gold pins too!
> 
> Naw, sorry. To rich for my blood.



You might have spent your extra cash on that pink Marshall stack from the other thread.

But, they are the most expenisve preamps i've seen yet.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I have a large cardboard box a refrigerator came in. That would make a great two room apartment. Put a pail behind it and you have a bathroom. I can let if go for cheap.


Do I have to put down a security deposit?


----------



## Stymie13

OK, finally got to do some tube rollin' in my DSL today. Here's my take: In V1 the best sounding tubes were:

1. Tele smooth plate (25-26) 
2. Aperex (32-29)
3. Tele ribbed plate (27-25)
4. Matsushita (29-31)

In V2:

1. Raytheon BP (30-31)
2. Matsushita (29-31)
3. Amperex (32-29)
4. RCA Mullard (30-33)

The biggest surprise of the day for me was what a difference the RCA Mullard made in the PI. It really smoothed things out and enhanced whatever I put in V1 and V2. The Raytheon BP was certainly as advertised. It was head and shoulders above everything else in V2 for me. I can't thank Marty enough for giving me the opportunity to experience the subtle distinctions of 8 real vintage tubes. The only problem is I don't have enough money to support my habit! I'll liken it to sipping the finest Tequila or skiing the sickest powder: once you've tasted the goods, nothing else will suffice. You're spoiled. Ruined. A tube snob. I can't wait to try some in my Maverick.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Have Marty save the RCA Mullard for you and get it later. Why let a good tube get away from you? If it made such a good change, I would want the tube in my amp.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Do I have to put down a security deposit?



No, but I would invest in a good set of knee pads.


----------



## Stymie13

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Have Marty save the RCA Mullard for you and get it later. Why let a good tube get away from you? If it made such a good change, I would want the tube in my amp.



I know... you're right. I should just buck-up and cough up the cash. Thanks for the motivation!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well you do what is best for you financially. I'm just saying if it was me, I'd be grabbing it.


----------



## thrawn86

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I have a large cardboard box a refrigerator came in. That would make a great two room apartment. Put a pail behind it and you have a bathroom. I can let if go for cheap.



Somewhere, Carnada is packing all his belongings........


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, Joe. Someone inform me on the 6N2P russian tubes. I have noticed that there are a shit load on ebay. How do they compare to a 12AX7? Any hidden tones in them? Or are there so many on ebay for a reason and thats that they are shit?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty, Joe. Someone inform me on the 6N2P russian tubes. I have noticed that there are a shit load on ebay. How do they compare to a 12AX7? Any hidden tones in them? Or are there so many on ebay for a reason and thats that they are shit?



Well, the big difference is the 6N2P is 6.3 heater voltage. The 12AX7 is a 12.6V tube. You would have to rewire your amp's heater string to run them. You would have to change all the preamps over. You couldn't do just one.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ahh, ok. I didnt know. I had been seeing them a whole lot and was like what are these things.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm stuck with a bunch of them. Just more tubes I bought direct from a Russian tube seller. I was thinking I might be able to use them in place of a 6EU7, but it won't work.


----------



## BluesRocker

Do they sound good at all after the amp is modified? or do you know this?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have them, but I've never tried them. I didn't want to mod a HiFi amp for them and then not like it and have to change it back. I don't know what they sound like, but here in the USA, they would be called 6AX7's. 

Now I guess if a guy was smart, he would buy a bunch of these and say in 2020 change his amp over for them.

Right now, the drawback is you could only use this tube with its tone. There would be no other brands to "roll."


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now I guess if a guy was smart, he would buy a bunch of these and say in 2020 change his amp over for them.





I just noticed a SPAX7 preamp in my 'Other Brand' amp. Is that a standard 12AX7 or a different type?


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

My new Teles arrived today...that was quick; 3 days including the weekend




My first 2 teles...going to take the Brimars in V1 and put them in V2.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sweet. When I get my Fender all tubed up, I'm going to get a couple of Tele smooth plates. I'd like to have at least a couple of spares on my tone tubes. My Raytheons that Marty tested are almost perfect for a good V2 tube, so I'm set in that department. The JRPs that I got a few weeks ago, I don't really know what to do with. They are some of the strongest tubes I've had. They have a great tone and lots of harmonics but the clean channel isn't so clean anymore. I wish someone could come up with a drop-in adapter that would let you put 2 or 3 tubes in one socket and a footswitch to switch between them. Or I could get a 6100.


----------



## ariansyaz

hi guys. was just browsing thru ebay today. saw some rather interesting stuff. i was just wondering if anyone can tell me wether this listing is a dud or the real deal. and the same goes to all the tubes the seller is selling. i guess i'd be better finding out here rather than find out its a dud after opening the postbox.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12AT7WA-CV402...ageAudio_RL?hash=item4836deba91#ht_500wt_1108


and..sorry...i dont know how to copy and paste the link like how u guys go it...so i just copied it from the browser. my deficiencies.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sweet. When I get my Fender all tubed up, I'm going to get a couple of Tele smooth plates. I'd like to have at least a couple of spares on my tone tubes. My Raytheons that Marty tested are almost perfect for a good V2 tube, so I'm set in that department. The JRPs that I got a few weeks ago, I don't really know what to do with. They are some of the strongest tubes I've had. They have a great tone and lots of harmonics but the clean channel isn't so clean anymore. I wish someone could come up with a drop-in adapter that would let you put 2 or 3 tubes in one socket and a footswitch to switch between them. Or I could get a 6100.



Well Alan I tried to say hi back to you on TGP but the site is being a slug! So I'll give you a shout out when it lets me.



Ok it just went through hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

ariansyaz said:


> hi guys. was just browsing thru ebay today. saw some rather interesting stuff. i was just wondering if anyone can tell me wether this listing is a dud or the real deal. and the same goes to all the tubes the seller is selling. i guess i'd be better finding out here rather than find out its a dud after opening the postbox.
> 
> 
> 12AT7WA/ CV4024 MULLARD NOS BOXED on eBay (end time 25-Mar-10 11:17:28 GMT)
> 
> 
> and..sorry...i dont know how to copy and paste the link like how u guys go it...so i just copied it from the browser. my deficiencies.



If you have a need for a 12AT7, that's a good one. You can buy them from a couple of online retailers here for $30. Are you in the U.K.? If you're in the US, I happen to know someone in this very thread who has one of those listed on eBay right now for $10.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well Alan I tried to say hi back to you on TGP but the site is being a slug! So I'll give you a shout out when it lets me.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok it just went through hehe.



Probably because that forum moves like a gerbil on speed. I can't keep up with threads. Check back in an hour and it's 3 pages gone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RATT-I tried calling you and it went to voicemail. I left my number, but I don't know how long I will be up. I have sisters in town and I've been up early and have been everywhere. The old guy is beat.


----------



## RiverRatt

We'll catch up sooner or later. Is everybody else having trouble with PMs too? I remember Lisa saying something about missing a bunch of PMs. Dammit, we have some tube bizness to conduct here!


----------



## ariansyaz

hi jesta. i was browsing thru the forum. i was looking to find nos tubes. cante help reading thru all the post, and i came across yours while . i found 1 seller in adelaide. open up ebay and look for seller 'bob's tube audio'. hope it helps . cheers.


----------



## thrawn86

The Verdict is in.

Wow.

Thanks Marty! The Highgain pack is incredible. Makes my 401 sound like a JVM or something. Not that it didn't sound good before, but the pack makes it 100% great. It was _exactly_ what I wanted. Cleans are crisp and defined, Crunch channel has that great classic rock feel to it, and now the OD (Red) channel sounds different enough from the Crunch....can't thank you enough.

NOS rocks. No doubt....no doubt in my mind!




I could take State with my new valves.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that deserves a round for all.

Welcome to the world of high performance glassware.


----------



## ariansyaz

riverratt....im in malaysia. where im from, nos tubes are like ...er....non existant. but i do go to london every once or twice a month, thus, im really looking for anyone who has nos for sale in the uk. preferebly near london.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that deserves a round for all.
> 
> Welcome to the world of high performance glassware.



Thanx Marty. Yeah, it is a magnificent difference. If you can believe this: I still haven't put them through the cab (which is always sweet), and my 100W Goldback is singing like Michael Crawford instead of Neil Young now! 

Now THAT'S improvement!


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you go to the sealed back cab it's gonna be "Dy-no-mite!" Especially pumping at least 20 watts into it.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I'm sneaking on at work. Glad you like your new tubes Thrawn. Looks like everyone has been busy. I'm going to do a quick run and then I have to go. This isn't exactly work.


----------



## thrawn86

lols!


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I'm sneaking on at work. Glad you like your new tubes Thrawn. Looks like everyone has been busy. I'm going to do a quick run and then I have to go. This isn't exactly work.



Just do what I do, goof around on the internet all day and then stay until midnight to get caught up. What am I going to do, fire myself?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, if you get a chance, post a couple of pics of those RFT Telefunkens you were talking about earlier. I'd like to get a good look at them.

Edit: I actually found where we were talking about those. It was back on page 112. I hate work. I don't have time for the important things in life.


----------



## alerich

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, the big difference is the 6N2P is 6.3 heater voltage. The 12AX7 is a 12.6V tube. You would have to rewire your amp's heater string to run them. You would have to change all the preamps over. You couldn't do just one.



12AX7 is not a 12.6v tube. You tie pins 4 and 5 together. The 6.3 VAC heater connection is wired between pins 4/5 and pin 9. Stick to opinions about tone. It's obvious you have never worked inside an amplifier before.


----------



## solarburn

alerich said:


> 12AX7 is not a 12.6v tube. You tie pins 4 and 5 together. The 6.3 VAC heater connection is wired between pins 4/5 and pin 9. Stick to opinions about tone. It's obvious you have never worked inside an amplifier before.



Oh shit...


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Thanx Marty. Yeah, it is a magnificent difference. If you can believe this: I still haven't put them through the cab (which is always sweet), and my 100W Goldback is singing like Michael Crawford instead of Neil Young now!
> 
> Now THAT'S improvement!



 Bruther! Sounds like the amp got hot rodded!

Enjoy!


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I'm sneaking on at work. Glad you like your new tubes Thrawn. Looks like everyone has been busy. I'm going to do a quick run and then I have to go. This isn't exactly work.



I'm tell'n!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh shit...



Yeah, just what we need - another pissing match. My tube's a 12 inch, er, I mean 12 volt. Yours is only 6... 

Alerich, you can wire a 12AX7 in series to use a 12.6v. heater supply. That's like what the 12 in 12AX7 stands for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alerich, the purpose of my statement was to prevent the member from buying 6N2P's and trying to use them as 12AX7's in his amp. They won't work. 

Now I am a little concerned about your immediate need to jump on me. What you described is "ONE" way a 12AX7 can be run. The 12AX7 is the original version of this tube. It can only be used in amps utilizing a parallel filament design.

12AX7A: This version can be used in series or parallel filament circuits. Believe it or not, there are some amps out there with series filaments.

The initial "12" in the designator implies a 12.6 volt heater; however, the tube has a center tapped filament so it can be used in "either 6.3V or 12.6V circuits."

Most NOS and CP tubes are of the 12AX7A type. The heaters can run in both 6.3 or 12.6 volt modes. Why you jumped all over this as if there wasn't any other way to run the heaters is quite foolish. It shows that you have a lack of knowledge about this particular tube. If all amps using 12AX7's were 6.3V, then I guess you would have reason to push my face into the sand. The bottom line is that you're wrong. When I said the 12AX7 is a 12.6V tube, I made a valid, correct statement that any tech will back me on. Now if you want to amplify this into a big pissing match, that's up to you.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty I just got on for a while. I'm sorry that you have to deal with that. Why do people have to be like that?


----------



## thrawn86

Man that was a little harsh. You gonna go cry now, Marty, since big-bad-less than fifty post man beat you up?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well something else I would like to add. I test a lot of tubes each month. When I test 12AX7's guess what the heater voltage needs to be set at?

12 volts! That's right, tube testers all test 12AX7's with 12 volts. Not 6.3/6.3V.

But what do I know? I'm just someone who better mind his own business and stick to opinions on tone. Oh wait...an opinion is just an opinion, but a fact is a fact and it is fact that a 12AX7 is a 12 volt tube, just like any other tube with "12" in the designator.


----------



## jcmjmp

alerich said:


> 12AX7 is not a 12.6v tube. You tie pins 4 and 5 together. The 6.3 VAC heater connection is wired between pins 4/5 and pin 9. Stick to opinions about tone. It's obvious you have never worked inside an amplifier before.



WoW! 

You got some balls to post something like that!

Before you mouth off like that, you should probably learn who you're talking to and have a look at a 12AX7 spec sheet. You sound like an immature know it all kid that _thinks_ he knows everything.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You tell him, jcmjmp. What a pickle.


----------



## TwinACStacks

I got nothin'.... Like shooting fish in a barrel.

 TWIN


----------



## oldrunt

I was told people don't like jjs in a tsl. What is it that they don't like?


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn, I just wanted to know about that tube. Not start a war with fancy pants and Marty. I'm sorry guys (and Lisa).


----------



## ken361

its all your falt damm lol


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Pikced up a nice old brimar today, there was a batch of 5 going on Ebay, all NOS and starting at about £7 so i thought id keep an eye on them. The picture was poor, they description was lacking so i managed to pick up a bargain for a NOS brimar. One went for £9 (including free postage!) i got mine for £12.50, which is still non to shabby. They have long black plates (look almost charcol like) and square getters, no markings at all apart from the screen printing, and the original boxes. Look to be 1950s production from what i can see on Tubemongerlib.com


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Pikced up a nice old brimar today, there was a batch of 5 going on Ebay, all NOS and starting at about £7 so i thought id keep an eye on them. The picture was poor, they description was lacking so i managed to pick up a bargain for a NOS brimar. One went for £9 (including free postage!) i got mine for £12.50, which is still non to shabby. They have long black plates (look almost charcol like) and square getters, no markings at all apart from the screen printing, and the original boxes. Look to be 1950s production from what i can see on Tubemongerlib.com



V. Nice Spirit!

im after some more valves for my TSL now iv got it back up and running. I might stick new pre and power in there.

Was thinking Tung-sol EL34B and a mix of JJ ECC803s in V1 with a tung sol in V2, etc

Im keeping CP in my TSL then all NOS in my JCM800.

The TSL just seems to suit most CP valves i have tried apart from that shitty harma 7025 which is like a can of wasps. 

Iv got the TSl sounding quite good at the min. Iv got a Brimar in V1 then a JJ in V2. The JJ tames the lead channel's brightness and the upps the crunch's bite a bit.
I dont like the JJ's in V1.. too dark for me

Are the JJ ECC803S not too relaible.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> V. Nice Spirit!
> 
> im after some more valves for my TSL now iv got it back up and running. I might stick new pre and power in there.
> 
> Was thinking Tung-sol EL34B and a mix of JJ ECC803s in V1 with a tung sol in V2, etc
> 
> Im keeping CP in my TSL then all NOS in my JCM800.
> 
> The TSL just seems to suit most CP valves i have tried apart from that shitty harma 7025 which is like a can of wasps.
> 
> Iv got the TSl sounding quite good at the min. Iv got a Brimar in V1 then a JJ in V2. The JJ tames the lead channel's brightness and the upps the crunch's bite a bit.
> I dont like the JJ's in V1.. too dark for me
> 
> Are the JJ ECC803S not too relaible.



Havent tried them, only the ecc83s and had one fart out on me in a few hours so was not impressed. Now ive had my DSL 401 for a while im now after a half stack and am considering the TSL (id like 3 channels) or the JVM, going to save the cash then make a choice after playing a few, then load em up with some of my stash!


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Havent tried them, only the ecc83s and had one fart out on me in a few hours so was not impressed. Now ive had my DSL 401 for a while im now after a half stack and am considering the TSL (id like 3 channels) or the JVM, going to save the cash then make a choice after playing a few, then load em up with some of my stash!



If you really take care of a TSL it will be fine. I let the problem in mine get worse until it took out the OT. 

Im looking at selling my TSL and getting either a DSL50 or a VOX/ORANGE?HIWATT.. not sure yet. Need to try some out.

Iv had good luck with the ecc83s JJ's. Theyve all stood up to some hard usage and been good durability wise. I might just get a Mullard for V1 then Tungsol straight through apart from V4 which il stick a JJ.


----------



## solarburn

Procter2812 said:


> I dont like the JJ's in V1.. too dark for me
> 
> Are the JJ ECC803S not too relaible.



I had 1 JJ 803S die in 4hrs in my DSL. I still have another on the side. They don't fare so well in high gain amps or combos anyways from what I've read. 

I will say I really liked this tube in V1 of my Marshall. It was fat but didn't flatten out the highs and get dark. I was actually really bummed when it died especially so quickly. A fine sounding tube IMO.

I too don't like JJ ECC83S's in V1 either.


----------



## Wilder Amplification

alerich said:


> 12AX7 is not a 12.6v tube. You tie pins 4 and 5 together. The 6.3 VAC heater connection is wired between pins 4/5 and pin 9. Stick to opinions about tone. It's obvious you have never worked inside an amplifier before.



Yes it is in fact a 12.6V valve but has the flexibility to be ran on 6.3 volts via the center tap of the heaters at pin 9. The two heaters in the 12AX7 are both 6.3 volt heaters but are wired in series between pins 4 and 5, while having the series connecting point connected to pin 9. If you apply the heater voltage to pins 4 and 5 and don't use pin 9, you have to run them on 12.6V since the heaters are in series to get 6.3V to each heater (the total required voltage to run both heaters at 6.3V doubles when running the heaters in series). Pin 9 allows you to join pin 4/5 together to parallel them, which allows you to run them on a 6.3V supply via connecting the heater supply to pins 4/5 and 9, which is how most guitar amps are set up.

The problem with the 62NP valve is that they have two 3.15 volt heaters wired in series between pins 4 and 5 for a total required heater voltage of 6.3V, and don't have the series connecting point of the two heaters wired to pin 9 like a 12AX7 does. As such, you would have to remove the connection between pin 4 and 5, then wire the heater supply up to pins 4 and 5 to make these valves work in a guitar amp that runs 12AX7s on a 6.3 volt supply.

You sure you've ever worked inside of an amp before?


----------



## solarburn

Wilder Amplification said:


> You sure you've ever worked inside of an...before?



Thats what she said!


----------



## RiverRatt

Guys, I think alerich is gone. He dropped his stink bomb and hung around for a couple of hours and hasn't been back on. I'll never understand what motivates a forum troll. Maybe his mother didn't breast feed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know he was a troll. I could guess who's "camp" he's from. I pegged the other guy who was only on this thread to spy and get info for a certain amp builder.

How do I know for sure? By the emails I received right after he got off the forum. It is amazing how someone will get a membership and then only come on to cause grief.


----------



## thrawn86

Chief Inspector Marty Clueseau. 

Speaking of which, what would be the proverbial "Pink Panther" of preamp valves? Either for rarity or tonal characteristics?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice segue!

I would say a Telefunken ECC803S. Do an eBay search and check the prices. There's one on there that's already over $300 and it still has 5 days to go. :eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

One that comes to mind is the Mullard 10M. These came in boxes that were as fancy as a jeweler's box. The tubes were made to exacting standards and were rated at a minimum of 10,000 hours. Here is some info on it.

Mullard 10M Ultra-low noise premium 12AX7, GOLD pins, made in England. EXTREMELY RARE. 

New Old Stock in original purple and gold box. The 10M series by Mullard is a British tube classic, and these are very scarce in the USA! 10,000 hour rated heater life, matched triodes, low noise and low microphonics screened. These have the ultra wide bandwidth of the Telefunken, but with just a touch of midrange warmth. Good but faded original yellow label as the foam rubber cradle inside the box is rotting. The gold pin 10M version is the most sought after, consistently rated one of the best 12AX7 tubes of all time on many audiophile message boards and websites. These tubes are currently soaring in value as stocks of them vanish.

Mullard 10M type 7025, Ultra-low noise premium 12AX7, standard pins, made in England. EXTREMELY RARE. $450 each.

B759 Ultra-low noise premium 12AX7, Genalex "Gold Lion" series, made in England. EXTREMELY RARE. $550 each.

New Old Stock white box. These are the much sought after "Gold Lion" series made by Genalex, with the gold lion logo on the glass. The B759 is a very low noise 12AX7, with matched triode elements. These two match, but I will seperate if you only need one. The ultimate vintage audiophile tube!

Way beyond what we need in a guitar amp. These tubes would actually be best suited in some of the finest tube recording microphones.


----------



## Bieling3

I was going to go with a suggestion I'd seen here previously, the NOS RFT 12AX7 in V1 of my jcm 800...which of any of these listings looks legit:

http://bit.ly/91zK0M

I'm a bit wary of purchasing from overseas, but all these sellers have pretty high feed back. Any place else, besides Ebay, and beyond Doug's Tubes or Eurotubes, that may have a reliable supply at a decent price?


----------



## solarburn

Bieling3 said:


> I was going to go with a suggestion I'd seen here previously, the NOS RFT 12AX7 in V1 of my jcm 800...which of any of these listings looks legit:
> 
> NOS RFT 12AX7, Electronics. Great deals on eBay!
> 
> I'm a bit wary of purchasing from overseas, but all these sellers have pretty high feed back. Any place else, besides Ebay, and beyond Doug's Tubes or Eurotubes, that may have a reliable supply at a decent price?




Brand new, MINT NOS Late 1960s RFT ECC83 12AX7 VEB Röhrenwerke Anna Seghers Neuhaus Prod Tubes with Halo Getter. Made in E. Germany. These are in the top 2-3 desirable tubes for Guitar tone, and also work fine in Audio gear.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, Joe. I remembered them, but at one time that link was a closely-guarded secret.

I got to air out the Marshall a little last night. I ran into one of my neighbors at the grocery store last week. She said she heard me playing guitar the other day. I told her if it bothered them just to call, and she said no, it sounded nice. I take that as permission to crank it up!

I've been meaning to try one of the Ray JRPs in V4 on the DSL and I finally got around to it last night. I've already been using one of them in the other amp. So far I like it. It feels something like boosting the amp. 

I think my tastes are changing. I've been experimenting with using higher gain tubes in V1 and V2 and keeping the gain at around 6 (crunch channel of course). This is pretty much the tone that I bought a Marshall for. The only drawback to this approach is that the amp needs some decent volume to really sound good, which isn't always possible. EQ settings are Presence: 0, Treble: 6, Mid: 6, Bass: 8 with no bass boost and no tone shift. This setting would probably not work for a Strat, but with the LP/humbuckers it's a good, thick tone that cleans up well and really has some balls when you dig in.

Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a tonequest article.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, Joe. I remembered them, but at one time that link was a closely-guarded secret.
> 
> I got to air out the Marshall a little last night. I ran into one of my neighbors at the grocery store last week. She said she heard me playing guitar the other day. I told her if it bothered them just to call, and she said no, it sounded nice. I take that as permission to crank it up!
> 
> I've been meaning to try one of the Ray JRPs in V4 on the DSL and I finally got around to it last night. I've already been using one of them in the other amp. So far I like it. It feels something like boosting the amp.
> 
> I think my tastes are changing. I've been experimenting with using higher gain tubes in V1 and V2 and keeping the gain at around 6 (crunch channel of course). This is pretty much the tone that I bought a Marshall for. The only drawback to this approach is that the amp needs some decent volume to really sound good, which isn't always possible. EQ settings are Presence: 0, Treble: 6, Mid: 6, Bass: 8 with no bass boost and no tone shift. This setting would probably not work for a Strat, but with the LP/humbuckers it's a good, thick tone that cleans up well and really has some balls when you dig in.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to turn this into a tonequest article.



Yeah you're right about it being a guarded link but I thought since most of us have broadened our tube horizons and found other gems we could share this link with the rest. Tubemonger will appreciate it hehe.

I for one like hearing about exactly what you are finding in the Marshall tonewise using whatever tubes so keep the reports com'n in. I will try this using the Crunch channel when I get mine back. Usually I'm working on getting lead 1 and lead 2 settings I like while rolling certain tubes. Think I will focus on the Crunch Channel and see what I can get there. Usually I boost it but alot of the time thats because I can't open it up. So I add some gain at lower volume. Should be fun trying. Look'n forward to it.

Side note:

The Monza has turned into a really fun amp for blues and rock. Luv the tube sag and it isn't overly saggy. Just right. It isn't an amp to shred with. This is an amp for playing tasty licks and phrasings. I hear all my mistakes now. I hear every note I play even chording. The saturation is really clear. Once I can play well(my version)on this amp I should be able to play well on any amp hehe. 

The other nice thing about this amp is its cathode biased so the power tubes are plug and play, no biasing. I put a BEL NOS rectifier in and noticed a bit of change in the sag character. I like it. The Sovtec was decent though. I'm running it with a Telefunken in V1 and an LPS in the PI which is how it came. I like the LPS as a PI so I had no problem with it. The Telefunken sounded better than the BP, RFT, Matsushitas and JP I rolled in V1. The JJECC83S it came with again flattened the tone out and was duller using it in V1. I always find that same characteristic in the JJ as a V1 contributer.

Another thing I keep do'n is leaving my ESP EC1000 with EMG actives plugged in. You do this and it drains the battery just like leaving a pedal's input jack plugged in. Gotta remember to unplug the guitar too when I'm done.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's interesting how tube preferences change between different amps. I've listened to just about every clip on the Dr. Z website. They are definitely some sweet sounding amps. How loud do you have to drive it to get that thick, punchy tone? 

I keep coming back to the Matsushita in V1 in the DSL. It's from that same batch that I sent you one of. I still like the Telefunken, but the Mat seems to color the tone more and in a good way.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's interesting how tube preferences change between different amps. I've listened to just about every clip on the Dr. Z website. They are definitely some sweet sounding amps. How loud do you have to drive it to get that thick, punchy tone?
> 
> I keep coming back to the Matsushita in V1 in the DSL. It's from that same batch that I sent you one of. I still like the Telefunken, but the Mat seems to color the tone more and in a good way.



I still have that Matsushita in V1 on the Marshall too. I agree it sounds really good. I'm going to be bummed when it gives up the ghost hehe. I bought 3 more but haven't rolled those in the Marshall yet so I don't know if they are as good as the one you sent me...

There is pretty much one volume level on the Monza. Loud and off. It hits a certain point volume wise which isn't much louder than the volume knob on low. When you hit that point the volume causes the amp to saturate. The drive knob just thickens it up. I like the volume about at noon for a good mix between it and the drive. Past noon the sag really starts to come in and you have to back off on the drive cause volume is saturating it more. Its pretty damn cool and fun to listen to notes bloom and sing. It can get nice and sleazy, greazy and ZZ.


----------



## ariansyaz

hey guys, i just bought some JAN PHILIPS ECG 12ax7 tubes dated A8/86. what do u think about one of these going into v1 or v2 ( or any other slots in that case) in my dsl100? currently i also have a svetlana 12axt dated 0607 and a sovtekLPS 12ax7 dated 0902. any suggestions on which slots should they go into (v1-v4)? cheers.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the older the Matsushitas are, the better they sound. The ones we have that are labeled "Realistic" are the oldest ones I've found. They have a square or "D" getter and were made around 1958. The round slant getters were made in the '60s and are still pretty damn good. The halo getters seem to be from the '70s on and they are my least favorite. You often see them relabeled as Amperex, RCA or several lesser-known brands. I haven't seen any with square getters since I bought those Realistics last fall.


----------



## solarburn

Ok. Put the Sovec LPS in the PI. Try the JP in V1 first and then V2.

I find the LPS makes a great PI tube. Its a bit hairy in V1 or V2. Many players use the LPS in the PI.

Mix em' and see what you like above all though hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think the older the Matsushitas are, the better they sound. The ones we have that are labeled "Realistic" are the oldest ones I've found. They have a square or "D" getter and were made around 1958. The round slant getters were made in the '60s and are still pretty damn good. The halo getters seem to be from the '70s on and they are my least favorite. You often see them relabeled as Amperex, RCA or several lesser-known brands. I haven't seen any with square getters since I bought those Realistics last fall.



I'm going to go to a buds house and jam some blues now but when I get back I'll check the getters on the ones I got and see what they are. I'll let you know.


----------



## ariansyaz

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok. Put the Sovec LPS in the PI. Try the JP in V1 first and then V2.
> 
> I find the LPS makes a great PI tube. Its a bit hairy in V1 or V2. Many players use the LPS in the PI.
> 
> Mix em' and see what you like above all though hehe.




will sure try'em solar... Any other combi's from anyone else?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The other nice thing about this amp is its cathode biased so the power tubes are plug and play, no biasing. I put a BEL NOS rectifier in and noticed a bit of change in the sag character. I like it.
> 
> Another thing I keep do'n is leaving my ESP EC1000 with EMG actives plugged in. You do this and it drains the battery just like leaving a pedal's input jack plugged in. Gotta remember to unplug the guitar too when I'm done.



Well that's what I was saying about true, all tube amps. Even a rectifier tube can change the tone/sag. I would trust the BEL over the JJ.

Another thing. I know you pretty well. I don't ever remember the EC1000. I know I joked about it the other day when Lisa called it, "greasy." Is this something you have had, or did you get guitar GAS as well?


----------



## RiverRatt

ariansyaz said:


> will sure try'em solar... Any other combi's from anyone else?



Pretty much what Joe said. If the JANs are a little too strong for V1 and V2, they would make an excellent V3 and V4 set. What I would do would be to use the JANs in V1 and V2 for now, and try to get your hands on a fairly strong Raytheon USA black plate tube. Put it in V2 and the JANs in V3 and V4 and that will give you a really strong platform to try different tubes in V1. 

You were talking earlier about looking for tubes in London, right? I can't think of any of our tube crew who is from London. Have you thought of renting a postal box in London and having your eBay stuff sent there? It might work out cheaper that way than if you had it shipped directly to you. 

Check this site out. They will hold your mail for pick-up or forward it to another address.

PO Box Hire - PO Box Rental - PO Box Service


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think the older the Matsushitas are, the better they sound. The ones we have that are labeled "Realistic" are the oldest ones I've found. They have a square or "D" getter and were made around 1958. The round slant getters were made in the '60s and are still pretty damn good. The halo getters seem to be from the '70s on and they are my least favorite. You often see them relabeled as Amperex, RCA or several lesser-known brands. I haven't seen any with square getters since I bought those Realistics last fall.



I still haven't determined the exact time when Matsushita went into production. (Or any other MIJ factory for that matter.) I know that all of them started out very small and then expanded as the US companies (UK and Euro too) closed.

The "D" Getters are probably up to 1964. By then, Matsushita was deluged with orders and all of the tubes were blank except for MIJ on the tube. The USA, UK and Euro companies took the blank tubes and put their logo's on them. Of course the same could be said about Mullard. They were closing plants down (I think they had six in the UK) and the Blackburn plant was the last to go. They made blank tubes with just, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube. Of course, some of these were made by RFT as Telefunken clones and then they ended up in RCA (and others???) tube boxes. I will get around and post some pictures of the RFT/Tele smooth plate and the RCA/Mullard RFT.

The bottom line is that from the mid 50's, the Japanese tube companies were enjoying continuous growth, while everyone else was shutting down. 

These Radio Shack tube boxes I got are blue and white and they state, "Part of the Tandy Corporation." I sure every one of the replacement tubes were Matsushita's. (They hauled the organ off after retubing it.) 

Does anyone know how long Matsushita made tubes for Radio Shack? Did they go into the early 90's?

And it is funny that they went from a good design to a cheaper design. Why couldn't they have just made the "D" Getter that was a copy of an early RCA.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Realistic tubes that me and Joe are talking about and the Realistic Lifetime tubes are very different. If you look at some of the Realistic Lifetime tubes, they are all over the place as to manufacturers. I think they just got them from anybody by the 1970's. I'm pretty sure some of them are Toshiba and NEC. A lot of them look like the same tube as the Raytheon MIJs, whoever made those. The Matsushita/Philips ones that I have seen for the most part are the later halo getters. I have no idea how long Matushita kept production going. I've picked up a couple that were dated as late as 1978.

Greengirl has three Realistic Lifetime 12AX7s on eBay right now. One is the Matsushita halo getter and the others look like Toshibas.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's some Philips info I have in my archives. I don't know how long Matsushita continued to make tubes after this, but Philips quit in 1980.

"About 1980, some weird transactions took place.Philips got tired of making tubes in Europe, and its Amperex subsidiary wasn't doing too well, so they sold off their English & Dutch tube making assets and the rights to the Mullard & Amperex brand names to Richardson Electronics of La Fox, IL, and withdrew the license to use the Mullard brand name from International Electronic Components of Long Island, NY.But at almost the same time, in a shrewd move that greatly strengthened their position in electronic components and consumer electronics in the USA, they bought the Electronic Components and Consumer Electronics divisions of Sylvania from GTE, which included the Sylvania tube plant. This plant continued to make the same tubes, but under the new Philips ECG brandname, which doesn't have anything to do with European Philips Miniwatt, or Amperex tubes.Production was discontinued ca. 1987, but Philips continued (and as far as we know still does) to market tubes under the Philips ECG brand name, by outsourcing tubes from current production manufacturers, when stocks of US made tubes were exhausted."


----------



## ariansyaz

RiverRatt said:


> Pretty much what Joe said. If the JANs are a little too strong for V1 and V2, they would make an excellent V3 and V4 set. What I would do would be to use the JANs in V1 and V2 for now, and try to get your hands on a fairly strong Raytheon USA black plate tube. Put it in V2 and the JANs in V3 and V4 and that will give you a really strong platform to try different tubes in V1.
> 
> You were talking earlier about looking for tubes in London, right? I can't think of any of our tube crew who is from London. Have you thought of renting a postal box in London and having your eBay stuff sent there? It might work out cheaper that way than if you had it shipped directly to you.
> 
> Check this site out. They will hold your mail for pick-up or forward it to another address.
> 
> PO Box Hire - PO Box Rental - PO Box Service



thanx riveRatt. and thanx for the ref on the older posts too. will also try to find those raytheons too. still searchinggggg.......


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> I still haven't determined the exact time when Matsushita went into production. (Or any other MIJ factory for that matter.) I know that all of them started out very small and then expanded as the US companies (UK and Euro too) closed.
> 
> The "D" Getters are probably up to 1964. By then, Matsushita was deluged with orders and all of the tubes were blank except for MIJ on the tube. The USA, UK and Euro companies took the blank tubes and put their logo's on them. Of course the same could be said about Mullard. They were closing plants down (I think they had six in the UK) and the Blackburn plant was the last to go. They made blank tubes with just, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube. Of course, some of these were made by RFT as Telefunken clones and then they ended up in RCA (and others???) tube boxes. I will get around and post some pictures of the RFT/Tele smooth plate and the RCA/Mullard RFT.
> 
> The bottom line is that from the mid 50's, the Japanese tube companies were enjoying continuous growth, while everyone else was shutting down.
> 
> These Radio Shack tube boxes I got are blue and white and they state, "Part of the Tandy Corporation." I sure every one of the replacement tubes were Matsushita's. (They hauled the organ off after retubing it.)
> 
> Does anyone know how long Matsushita made tubes for Radio Shack? Did they go into the early 90's?
> 
> And it is funny that they went from a good design to a cheaper design. Why couldn't they have just made the "D" Getter that was a copy of an early RCA.


I have a NOS Realistic gold pin tube it sounds a little ruff not sure if its because its new or not a great tube. also who make the Curtis mathes long grey plate? its not a bad sounding tube for 12 bucks and nos. Both made in Japan. Oh a D getter on the curtis tube probably Matsushita.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that's what I was saying about true, all tube amps. Even a rectifier tube can change the tone/sag. I would trust the BEL over the JJ.
> 
> Another thing. I know you pretty well. I don't ever remember the EC1000. I know I joked about it the other day when Lisa called it, "greasy." Is this something you have had, or did you get guitar GAS as well?



I was wondering if you had noticed hehe. I got it for the Marshall and to play more hardrock oriented stuff. Its a recent addition. I thought it looked cool so I got it. Its a shredders wet dream. Fast neck and low action. Trying to get acquainted with the EMG's.It has the 81/60 combo in it. It lights everything up. Like using a boost pedal. All in all I think its a decent guitar and should be great for hardrock.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The Realistic tubes that me and Joe are talking about and the Realistic Lifetime tubes are very different. If you look at some of the Realistic Lifetime tubes, they are all over the place as to manufacturers. I think they just got them from anybody by the 1970's. I'm pretty sure some of them are Toshiba and NEC. A lot of them look like the same tube as the Raytheon MIJs, whoever made those. The Matsushita/Philips ones that I have seen for the most part are the later halo getters. I have no idea how long Matushita kept production going. I've picked up a couple that were dated as late as 1978.
> 
> Greengirl has three Realistic Lifetime 12AX7s on eBay right now. One is the Matsushita halo getter and the others look like Toshibas.



Ok the 3 I have are the halo getters and one of them was from greengirl if you guys can remember back when I bought it. I've had all 3 for a bit now. The one I got from her actually says "Realistic Lifetime" on it. The other 2 barely have any label left but I can make out Matsushita on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Generally, the "Made in Japan," was in a very light color. It was pretty tough ink. It didn't wipe off easily. However, the text was very small and usually down around the base.

ALAN-I have read what you posted before about Philips. In fact, I may have put it on the thread before. I would shit all over myself if I could find just one decent "Tube Lore" site. I find the transition to Japanese tubes fascinating. I mean they boomed for what, 15 years? I would say most MIJ tubes are as good as most Ei's and a lot less chance of microphonics. 

Tube history. Will anyone ever really know?

I do like how you can trace the final days of Philips ECG and then after that, it begins with what I call the Modern Tube Era. Tesla and Ei and a few others were in business, but they were going broke and their countries were unstable. It wasn't long before the New Sensor corporation got into full production and that brings us up to date.

Now if anyone can tell me about 1965 to 1984, that would be great.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

whats up with these tubes ....good or bad ???

SYLVANIA/RAYTHEON/BALDWIN
nos Black plates
12au7/ecc82

Are these worth owning for a marshall guy ??

thanks ...


----------



## RiverRatt

They are the lowest-gain tube in the 12AX7 family. They have a gain factor of around 20. A 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100. There's not much use for them in a guitar amp. The Firefly amp from AX84.com uses a 12AU7 as a power tube to deliver about 1.5 watts. In the preamp section of a Marshall they would completely neuter it. If you want to try one, send me a PM. I've got a couple of handfuls of them collecting dust.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

RiverRatt said:


> They are the lowest-gain tube in the 12AX7 family. They have a gain factor of around 20. A 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100. There's not much use for them in a guitar amp. The Firefly amp from AX84.com uses a 12AU7 as a power tube to deliver about 1.5 watts. In the preamp section of a Marshall they would completely neuter it. If you want to try one, send me a PM. I've got a couple of handfuls of them collecting dust.



thanks ...thats all i needed to know !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Tubes a 12AU7, while popular, is a low gain tube. A 12AU7 has a gain factor of 17 compared to 100 for a 12AX7.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Generally, the "Made in Japan," was in a very light color. It was pretty tough ink. It didn't wipe off easily. However, the text was very small and usually down around the base.
> 
> ALAN-I have read what you posted before about Philips. In fact, I may have put it on the thread before. I would shit all over myself if I could find just one decent "Tube Lore" site. I find the transition to Japanese tubes fascinating. I mean they boomed for what, 15 years? I would say most MIJ tubes are as good as most Ei's and a lot less chance of microphonics.
> 
> Tube history. Will anyone ever really know?
> 
> I do like how you can trace the final days of Philips ECG and then after that, it begins with what I call the Modern Tube Era. Tesla and Ei and a few others were in business, but they were going broke and their countries were unstable. It wasn't long before the New Sensor corporation got into full production and that brings us up to date.
> 
> Now if anyone can tell me about 1965 to 1984, that would be great.



Here is a pic of mine and some description listed when I bought them:

These tubes were produced after Mullard sold all of their equipment to Japan. These do not have Mullard date codes but the same internal construction.

MATSUSHITA 12AX7 x2 / OLD STOCK!!
1960'S OLD STOCK!
DATE MATCHED!


















Used in: Fisher Eico Marantz Mcintosh Grommes etc. Basically just about every quality manufacturer took advantage of this terrific tube!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Generally, the "Made in Japan," was in a very light color. It was pretty tough ink. It didn't wipe off easily. However, the text was very small and usually down around the base.
> 
> ALAN-I have read what you posted before about Philips. In fact, I may have put it on the thread before. I would shit all over myself if I could find just one decent "Tube Lore" site. I find the transition to Japanese tubes fascinating. I mean they boomed for what, 15 years? I would say most MIJ tubes are as good as most Ei's and a lot less chance of microphonics.
> 
> Tube history. Will anyone ever really know?
> 
> I do like how you can trace the final days of Philips ECG and then after that, it begins with what I call the Modern Tube Era. Tesla and Ei and a few others were in business, but they were going broke and their countries were unstable. It wasn't long before the New Sensor corporation got into full production and that brings us up to date.
> 
> Now if anyone can tell me about 1965 to 1984, that would be great.



The problem I have with dating Matsushitas is that they don't use the Philips coding system at all. I've yet to find one with the factory code or any other Philips marking on it. About the only clue is the construction, which doesn't help narrow the date of manufacture down much. A few of the ones I've had, like that United Electron printed Made in U.S.A. I sent you, don't have Japan on them anywhere and use a very basic date code similar to Raytheon tubes. And how about the Ei tubes that were labeled Made in Japan? I have a couple of those in my collection, complete with factory and date codes from Ei on them. 

Good luck on your quest. Have you ever checked out the Tube Collectors Association? I've thought about joining just to see what resources they have.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, those are nice! I love that part about being made after Mullard sold ALL their equipment to Japan. Then a couple of lines down they are 1960's OLD STOCK! Now I don't know a whole helluva lot about 1960s' production, but how did Mullard manage to keep cranking out tubes in the 1960's without any equipment???

Here are a few pics of my Matsushitas:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man RATT, those MIJ's have a very deep getter flash. It goes down to the top mica.

Another big snowstorm coming in for us. Will Spring ever come?


----------



## solarburn

Well once I get the Marsha back I can roll those 3 and see how they compare to the one you gave me. Looks like the D getter ones may be the ticket ya know. At least in the Marshall. If you find any and want to share let me know. I'll understand if you won't want to share hehe. I just wonder how many of the D getters are out and about...

To either of you guys.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't mind the snow. Matter of fact I prefer it to the 110 degree summers we have here.

The D getters did have a big flash, and a slow one judging by the color. The one out of that trio that had the least flash was also the best sounding of the 3. One of them was just about as good - that's the one Joe has now. The third one I still have, but it's a little noisy.

I might have had some to share if I didn't have my head up my ass. I let these get away. They ended at 1 a.m. here the night before I went to Memphis amp shopping and I didn't stay up and bid on them. I wish I'd floated a $20 max in there and I might have gotten them. Round getters, but they are the slant ones like Marty's Raytheon. Notice that the middle one is a Realistic Lifetime with gold pins and they look exactly alike. The paint is even the same color on the Raytheons and Realistics, too.

3 USED Vintage Japanese 12AX7's UNIQUE only $15 Min NR - eBay (item 190375348943 end time Feb-25-10 19:03:37 PST)

The link isn't working - search for item 190375348943


----------



## Darrenw5094

I just scored 5 RCA 12AX7A's pulled from a Wurlizer Organ 1961-62 and a pair of Sylvania 12AX7 '61-63 for Baldwin Organs for about €55.

That was my best deal on eBay yet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good score. In a pinch, you can use the RCA's for V1 and V2 tubes, but they are better as V3 and V4 tubes. Same for the Sylvania's.

Good price for that many tubes.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Wowwy. Those are some nice pictures. You guys have some really wild stuff.

I'm glad the assh@@e left. What a sour pickle. So anybody doing anything crazy today? 

How is your amp Alan? Any news about it?


----------



## Darrenw5094

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good score. In a pinch, you can use the RCA's for V1 and V2 tubes, but they are better as V3 and V4 tubes. Same for the Sylvania's.
> 
> Good price for that many tubes.



Thanks. I just stuck my new RFT 12AX7's in V1 and V2 of the JVM and sounded great alright. 

I just scored 3 more tubes from the same eBay seller. Small bids i completely forgot about. 
12AX7 MATCHED PAIR HALTRON TUBES and 12AX7 PHILIPS MINIWATT TUBE for $30.49 or €22.53.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Wowwy. Those are some nice pictures. You guys have some really wild stuff.
> 
> I'm glad the assh@@e left. What a sour pickle. *So anybody doing anything crazy today? *
> 
> How is your amp Alan? Any news about it?


Yes Lisa, very crazy...a summary of my day:
A bit of shopping today (I have a wedding coming up in May (not mine, thank you) so I went to Nordstrom Rack, got a shirt and tie, some casual shirts, and a pair of flip flops for Michael. Listened to Valley of Neptune while eating dinner, put new handles on my Marshall cab, and I am now watching the last hour or so of the 12 Hrs. of Sebring. Peugeot in 1st and 2nd in LMP1.

How's that for excitement...I almost fell asleep typing this

Anyone else here into road racing, endurance racing, F1, and rallyng?


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> How is your amp Alan? Any news about it?



Yeah, I've spent the last two days swapping preamp tubes trying to find the one that's rattling. It's hard to balance a Les Paul and play a certain note while trying to tilt a 4x10 combo and tap tubes. I finally made a breakthough today. I cranked the amp up as loud as I dared and couldn't hear the noise. Turns out it was one of the tilt-back legs on the amp vibrating against the side. At least now I know and can quit blaming my tubes!

I went out tube hunting today and actually found a bunch in an antique store, but they were mostly those big RCAs and Sylvanias from the '40s and a lot of 6 volt miniatures. My only score was a homemade overdrive/boost pedal that I took a chance on for $20. It's an unfinished metal box with one chicken head knob for volume, a green LED and a switch, and the words Overdrive/Booster written in sharpie on it. It's also got a 9v AC adapter plug that works with my pedalboard. It sounds incredible through the Fender - I couldn't believe it. It's a little too scooped with the Marshall but still better than anything else I've got. I don't usually boost the Marshall anyway.


----------



## RiverRatt

30stringsandblackdog said:


> Anyone else here into road racing, endurance racing, F1, and rallyng?



I got pulled over twice already this year... does that count?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Finally got off of my lazy ass and it is tube porno time. As promised, the "Made In Gt. Britain" RFT's that came in the "Made In USA" box. I have it paired up with the Telefunken/RFT and one of my Mini Watt Short Plates.


























Some nice Ei's that are eerily close to the build of the RFT/Tele. Now I know that RFT made tubes for Telefunken and then the Ei's were made from Telefunken machinery. Why then did they copy the RFT smooth plate versus the Tele smooth plate? I mean these Ei's are like the same. Could it be that the Tele copies are "Ei's" instead of RFT's? Man, I'm all confused now that I got them out to take pictures. I almost want to say that the RCA is an Ei and the Tele is an Ei as well. This would be based on the Ei tubes that have the same identical cutouts (square/rectangular) and the protruding "finger" sticking out of the top mica. Let's hear your take on it RATT.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

The only things being counted are the dollars from your wallet as you hand over your fines to the court clerk...been there, done that.
My weapon of choice...2002 Subaru WRX...soon to be putting out approx 265hp from its 2 liter engine.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice car! A guy in town has a red one. It's fast.

Marty, I found a page the other day that had some Siemens und Halske (Philips) smooth plate tubes with the ‡ factory code. They looked a good deal like the Ei tubes too, but I've never heard of them faking the factory code. I think they were legit. I do remember that they had the numbers printed on the top of the tube. I'm trying to find it again without any luck.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's you a tidbit or two:

"On the initiative of Emperor Wilhelm II, in 1903 the Allgemeine Elektrizitäts-Gesellschaft (AEG) and Siemens & Halske AG jointly founded the Gesellschaft für drahtlose Telegraphie System Telefunken - better known as Telefunken. This was a political reaction to the developments in radio technology that were in progress in Great Britain. After World War I, Telefunken engineers laid the foundation for the introduction of radio in Germany (1923). In the 1930s, Telefunken was substantially invoved in the development of electronic television. In 1941 Siemens transferred its Telefunken shares to AEG as part of the agreements known as the "Telefunken settlement", and AEG thus became the sole owner. From the beginning of the 1970s, technological change and competitive pressure led to the rapid decline of AEG, and its various holdings were gradually sold."

"In 1941 Siemens & Halske AG acquired Deutsche Grammophon within the scope of the Telefunken settlement. In the 1950s the company once again established itself as market leader and in 1962 was incorporated in the Phonogram joint venture together with Philips. In 1972 Philips and Deutsche Grammophon formed a joint company with the name PolyGram. Philips finally took over all Siemens' PolyGram shares. The label Deutsche Grammophon is still used by the current owner Universal Music Group."

If you want to dig, here's the site:

Siemens History Site - Former Affiliates


----------



## MartyStrat54

It all comes down to whether or not Ei was already making tubes to be relabeled by Telefunken. If so, then these are Ei tubes. If not, then they are RFT tubes.

The construction looks the same. A regular RFT, especially their Short Plate is easy to identify, but when RFT is making tubes using another companies specs, it is hard to tell where the tube came from. The RFT or Ei Smooth Plate does not look like a regular Tele Smooth Plate and it does not sound the same. The Tele edges it out.

I'm really confused by this. All of these tubes were probably made between 1975 and 1980.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said above, I have found good evidence that Siemens & Halske, not RFT, made the smooth plate Telefunken copies, as well as a lot of Valvo tubes. When I get to work tomorrow, I'll backtrack and find the page I'm thinking of. Meanwhile, here are some Siemens & Halske tubes for your browsing pleasure. They have the Munich Philips factory code (‡ ).

Set #1. Notice the mostly gone Telefunken logo on the right picture.





Classic Philips top (doesn't look like the Ei seams at all):





No diamond bottom:





Set 2: Siemens & Halske, again with the pinched top, smooth plates, etc.











If RFT made the copies, they wouldn't have seamed tops, right? I can't imagine them re-tooling their whole line just to make a few Tele copies with pinched tops while they were in the middle of producing the classic RFT short plate ECC83.

I'm not saying that Ei didn't make some of the copies too. It's even possible that Telefunken started shifting their tube making to Siemens & Halske and Ei got the Telefunken equipment from S&H when they stopped in the early '70s. It makes sense. I've read that S&H still retained a 50% stock interest in Telefunken after they sold their rights to the name to AEG in 1941, so they would have been majority stockholders and would have decided what to do with the Telefunken assets when they went under.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Food for thought. The tubes I call RFT/Tele's and the Ei's both have at least two tabs bent over on the top mica. The RCA has the four tabs sticking up like the S and H tubes.

One thing is for sure, they were made somewhere in Europe.


----------



## Fixr1984

I picked up a few tubes for a buck at a guitar show and was woundering if any were useful. Compatable with a 12AX7?

First has Amperex and the numbers 6GH8A and 030 painted on. There is a #6 in the bottom side in the center.






"GE 5 LJ8 USA" painted on. On the bottom is a #7 in the center and a #3 on the rim in the gap between the pins.







Painted on is "Westinghouse 8JU8A". There are 4 plates. On the bottom there is a triangle in the center and a #6 on the rim in the gap between the pins.







Painted on is "Motorolla 12BY7A". Black plates. #14 on the bottom in the gap between the pins.







Last one has painted on "Dumont Emers.. 12AZ7". There is a #7 on the bottom in the center.







Anything work saving or using. If not compatable with a 12ax7 what could it be used for? Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 12AZ7 is basically a 12AT7 with a gain factor of 60-60 (twin triode). You could use it to smooth out an amp, but this is usually too much. You could also try it in a reverb driver or a phase inverter if the amp calls for a 12AT7.

The 12BY7A is a tube that has made somewhat of a comeback as a power amp tube in small, boutique 5 watt amps. You're not going to find them in a VOX or a Fender.

Everything else is TV tubes. Why they were selling them at a guitar show I don't know. I hope this helps.


----------



## Fixr1984

MartyStrat54 said:


> Everything else is TV tubes. Why they were selling them at a guitar show I don't know. I hope this helps.



The guy had a whole box of tubes and had no idea if they worked or what they came out of hence the price. I just grabed a couple that looked usable. So basically just toss them in a corner and forget I have them? At least I'm only out a buck.


----------



## RiverRatt

The BZ7 is a Raytheon gray plate. I'd be willing to bet that is IS a 12AT7. I've got a few of both, and they are identical in construction. It'd probably make a good reverb driver.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Right guys and girls (well at least 1 girl) A couple of telefunkens popped up in the post today, I paid quite a bit for these (its getting hard to find them at what i'd call a reasonable price) and i thought i would get a couple more to go with the 2 Dynaco ones . Anyway they appear to have seams on the top? My dynaco ones do not have seams at all, and i thought that Telefunkens didnt have them, so how come the ones i have got today do have, they certainly appear genuine enough, diamond on the base, screen printing rubs off, says all the right things so does anyone know where they fit into the scheme of things.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The BZ7 is a Raytheon gray plate. I'd be willing to bet that is IS a 12AT7. I've got a few of both, and they are identical in construction. It'd probably make a good reverb driver.



Alan, did you mean to say, "AZ7?"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do the Telefunken's "flash" when put in a socket?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do the Telefunken's "flash" when put in a socket?




Well I haven't actually got that far with them yet . Do you mean as i insert them, or when first powered up?

after a bit of digging it seems (no pun intended) that they are made by seimens for telefunken, not sure what to think about it, i paid a far whack for them as i was after some actual telefunkens, and now it appears they may be imposters. Ah well i will try them out sometime and see if i ilke them, if not i can hang onto them for a few years and then flip them when the price shoots up even further.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Where did you get that info? I was under the impression that only "real" Telefunken's had the <> on the bottom (usually with some lot number).

I mean I am trying to find out where some of my tubes were made. I'm sure you saw the 10 lot of RCA's I bought that said, "Made in Gt. Britain." These usually meant Mullard's, but not the case this time. They could be made by S and H and my other Tele's with no <> on the bottom could be made by them as well.

Or, depending on the date, the RCA's could have be made by Ei.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where did you get that info? I was under the impression that only "real" Telefunken's had the <> on the bottom (usually with some lot number).
> 
> I mean I am trying to find out where some of my tubes were made. I'm sure you saw the 10 lot of RCA's I bought that said, "Made in Gt. Britain." These usually meant Mullard's, but not the case this time. They could be made by S and H and my other Tele's with no <> on the bottom could be made by them as well.
> 
> Or, depending on the date, the RCA's could have be made by Ei.



I dug it up from an old private ad on the internet, some chap was selling 2 valves just like the ones i just got, and stated that as they had the seams they were made by Seimens fro Telefunken. I know its pretty spurious info, coupled this with the fact that a site ive come across has the Telefunkens next to the Seimnes & Halske Valves and all the S&K ones have those faint seams on the top of the bottle. 

Tube Classics

Probably totally wrong, I have seen quite a lot ot TFK's for sale that have the seams and have avoided them as I thought they were not 100% TFK's so to get these and see those seams took the wind out of my sails somehwat.

S&K supposedly make some fantastic valves so even if it turns out to be the case, ive still got some nice old glass to play with.

Edit

Well i really have no idea, i should justu se them and stop having kittens about a few marks on a piece of glass, I will use one at this weeks rehersal and see how these bad boys perform! After all no body died!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I trided out what I was calling my RFT/Tele's and I sent one to Joe to try out and he didn't like them as much as a real Tele smooth plate. I thought they had their own sound as well. Not as pronounced as a real <> Tele.

I didn't realize that Telefunken towards the end of the road farmed out a lot of tube orders to other companies. Eventually, Ei ended up with most of the Telefunken tooling. Supposedly, Tungsram made tubes for them as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

two...


----------



## MartyStrat54

one...


----------



## MartyStrat54

5,000...Five thousand posts!!!




Thanks to one and all. This has been a big year for me picking up the Member Of The Year award and I believe I may be the first to 5,000 post, but I do not know that for sure. I wish to thank Josh, Joe, Alan and all the other regulars here on the Preamp Tube thread. It has been a blast. This thread is the biggest, most active thread on the forum and I am looking to some new ideas to keep it there.

Once again, thanks and have a drink on me. I'm having Crown and 7.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Deserve a beer for that.


----------



## solarburn

Whoo HOoo!

Here's to 5K more!

I just woke up and got on here too!

I'm hav'n a protein drink to celebrate! 

BELCH!


----------



## MartyStrat54

What better way to start off with 5,001 then to bring you direct from Hong Kong the "Full Music" 12AX7 by TJ's. Guaranteed to be new in box.

Notice the full appointment including gold pins.
















Remember if they don't say "TJ's" on the box, they're fake.

EDIT: The image link was from EBAY. Apparently that link is no good at this time and the pictures won't come up. You had to see them last night. They were awesome.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Guaranteed to be new in box.



I don't doubt it - they were probably made last week.

As promised, I'm holding my glass of Old Crow neat up to the monitor. Cheers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I had three Crown and 7's and then I wished I had some Mary Jane. Ah the horrors of living in a small town. There was a time I didn't even need to buy it, yet I had more than I could use.


----------



## thrawn86

Congrats on the 5-K Marshall Forum Fun Run Race For The Cure.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, did you mean to say, "AZ7?"



I'm a dumbass. Yes, I meant AZ7. I should have sent you my Arcturus 12AZ7 to test. It looks just like the Raytheon AT7.

Here's the Arcturus 12AZ7 next to a Raytheon 12AT7. Both are black plates. I didn't remember the Arcturus having triple mica, but it looks like it does. Ignore the 12BH7 - it was part of the lot I got the other tubes in.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm a dumbass. Yes, I meant AZ7. I should have sent you my Arcturus 12AZ7 to test. It looks just like the Raytheon AT7.
> 
> Here's the Arcturus 12AZ7 next to a Raytheon 12AT7. Both are black plates. I didn't remember the Arcturus having triple mica, but it looks like it does. Ignore the 12BH7 - it was part of the lot I got the other tubes in.



What the hay does that tube go in?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What the hay does that tube go in?



You mean the 12BH7? It's a duak-triode and was designed to be used as a linear amp in a TV RF circuit. The gain factor is listed the same as a 12Au7 and has the same pinout, but I'm not sure if it's a direct sub electrically. It draws about double the heater current of a 12AU7. Because of other differences, like plate resistance, it will perform more like a 12AT7 in a guitar amp circuit. 

Another thing about 12BH7s; the Blackstar H5 uses one as a power tube in a push/pull setup.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I'm a dumbass. Yes, I meant AZ7. I should have sent you my Arcturus 12AZ7 to test. It looks just like the Raytheon AT7.
> 
> Here's the Arcturus 12AZ7 next to a Telefunken 12AT7. Both are black plates. I didn't remember the Arcturus having triple mica, but it looks like it does.



wassup man


----------



## RiverRatt

Is this one of the smooth plates we've been talking about? I can't tell much from the picture. Ei, maybe?

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Matsushita-NEC-12AD7-Audio-Tube-Low-Noyz-12AX7_W0QQitemZ370354094493QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563ad3019d


----------



## kr-100

Anybody know what brand this is? Came out of my 900. ECC83M......9 molded in bottem

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> wassup man



Work, work, work and work. I got home from work yesterday and worked on my amp for 3 hours.

I shipped your tube out yesterday. You're getting a helluva deal on that baby. I bought it last Christmas and hardly used it, and you got it for $25 less than I did! I may cut loose a few more here pretty soon - keep watching.

What are you going to be running it in?


----------



## RiverRatt

kr-100 said:


> Anybody know what brand this is? Came out of my 900. ECC83M......9 molded in bottem
> 
> Thanks



That's a Chinese Shugang 12AX7/ECC83. They are often relabeled for Groove Tubes and a bunch of other companies. The "M" in the model # may mean it's a Groove Tubes Mullard reissue. If that's a copy of Mullard contruction, my ass is a bicycle.


----------



## ken361

riverratt said:


> work, work, work and work. I got home from work yesterday and worked on my amp for 3 hours.
> 
> I shipped your tube out yesterday. You're getting a helluva deal on that baby. I bought it last christmas and hardly used it, and you got it for $25 less than i did! I may cut loose a few more here pretty soon - keep watching.
> 
> What are you going to be running it in?


jvm


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> That's a Chinese Shugang 12AX7/ECC83. They are often relabeled for Groove Tubes and a bunch of other companies. The "M" in the model # may mean it's a Groove Tubes Mullard reissue. If that's a copy of Mullard contruction, my ass is a bicycle.



dont look like the M tubes I have, groove tube/penta m,look just like a mullard or a japanese tubes they even flash some.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The OE tubes in a Marshall are very cheap tubes. Anyone here would recommend that you get some decent current production tubes or a few used or new old stock tubes (NOS).


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> jvm



Definitely will make a good V2 tube or a super high-gain V1. I preferred it in V1. YMMV.


----------



## ken361

isnt amperex, tele, mullard pretty much top v1 tubes? im hope it works well in the v1


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Is this one of the smooth plates we've been talking about? I can't tell much from the picture. Ei, maybe?
> 
> RARE Matsushita NEC 12AD7 Audio Tube Low Noyz 12AX7 - eBay (item 370354094493 end time Mar-29-10 20:48:17 PDT)



I have five of the 12AD7's. Two look different from the other three. That one on EBAY is very lopsided. The ones I have are all around 20-20 and I have two that are a little stronger. I don't think you will find any of these that are like 31-30. I think that is part of what makes them low noise and that is less gain. I would say new, these were probably in the 85-85 range, even though the spec sheet stated 100-100. Here are the last two I bought.

PAIR RARE MATSUSHITA 12AD7 SUPER 12AX7 JAPANESE MULLARD - eBay (item 320496612992 end time Mar-08-10 20:08:11 PST)

Item=320496612992


----------



## MartyStrat54

I screw up and missed out on a very nice quad of shiny plate MAZDA's and also some ADZAM's. Then I missed out on a nice quad of VALVO's. Funny how when you are trying to buy tubes like these, you are up against very rich HiFi owners. These tubes get crazy.

Anyway, I got me a couple of these for $71, but I have to pay 10 or 12 bucks for shipping.

2 ECC83 12AX7 LORENZ rare 1960´s full tested - eBay (item 220572862746 end time Mar-22-10 23:22:42 PDT)

Item=220572862746


----------



## TwinACStacks

OK Marty, I'm being serious here for a change. Why is it That I keep gravitating towards RCA's in my DSL, especially Blackplates? I keep messing with different NOS Euro Brands but there is something about an RCA. Am I going nuts? Shouldn't I prefer a Mullard, or is this just a personal taste issue? Do You have access to any NOS RCA AX7's? If so, $$$$$???? What do You suggest for V1,2,3. I have a 5751 Commander Blackplate in PI, Tames the OD a Tad and REALLY smoothes out the tone. I tried a Pair of 5751's (a GE 5 Star and the RCA) In V1 and V2, but it almost sounded with the gains rolled back, like it was Clipping the distortion somehow, It sounded really good Full gain though....

Thanx,  TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

TwinACStacks said:


> OK Marty, I'm being serious here for a change. Why is it That I keep gravitating towards RCA's in my DSL, especially Blackplates? I keep messing with different NOS Euro Brands but there is something about an RCA. Am I going nuts? Shouldn't I prefer a Mullard, or is this just a personal taste issue? Do You have access to any NOS RCA AX7's? If so, $$$$$???? What do You suggest for V1,2,3. I have a 5751 Commander Blackplate in PI.
> 
> Thanx,  TWIN



You are perfectly fine. When I first started selling tubes, I didn't have a whole lot of European or UK tubes. RCA's were my best sellers. I actually like a 1959 white letter, D-Getter RCA. These are pretty special sounding and were much copied by other companies.

The RCA Black Plate does sound different from the Raytheon Black Plate. Although we use high gain Raytheon Black Plates as a V2 tube, the fact is, the Raytheon is one of the most praised audio tubes around. It can be used as a V1 tube with great results and the same goes for an RCA Black Plate.

I currently have RCA tubes in stock. Just remember that any USA made tube is a huge step up from CP tubes. 

What you prefer is totally up to you. This is not an exact science. It's no different than speakers, or guitar pickups, or brand of strings. It's what sounds good to you.

BTW-What amp are you using?


----------



## TwinACStacks

Marty, a Modded DSL100.(with the Help of Joey) I need 3 AX7's for V1,2,3 I have a 5751 Commander series triplemica Blackplate RCA in V4(P.I.)

 TWIN


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Wowwy! I missed out on the big party last night. 

5000 posts! I never really noticed that before. Congratulations and I will have a shot to show you that I care. Rock On, Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Lisa. Yeah you missed Joe dancing with a lamp shade on his head. Alan drank so much he had to take a cab home. I on the other hand broke open a bottle of Crown Royal and that was my poison of choice.

There were six dancing girls and two pole dancers that were flown in from Brazil.

It did get a little crazy, but we all seemed to make it through the night.

It would have been nice if you had been here to keep us in line.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks Lisa. Yeah you missed Joe dancing with a lamp shade on his head. Alan drank so much he had to take a cab home. I on the other hand broke open a bottle of Crown Royal and that was my poison of choice.
> 
> There were six dancing girls and two pole dancers that were flown in from Brazil.
> 
> It did get a little crazy, but we all seemed to make it through the night.
> 
> It would have been nice if you had been here to keep us in line.



Like, a, 1960 cab?


----------



## plankbadger

Hello there,

The JCM 900 SLX has 4 pre-amp tubes. What do they all do and what should I replace them with? I get a bit of hiss when I turn up the gain nob - more than before.


----------



## Darrenw5094

Sorry Plankbadger....i don't mean to bypass your question.

Telefunken package on eBay located in Poland. Item #260571879335

eBay.ie: TELEFUNKEN EL34 ECC83 ECC808 1960's (item 260571879335 end time 03-Apr-10 00:20:49 BST)

2 EL34's and 12AX7's.

I posted this on the power valve thread just to hear peoples opinion on the eBay item(s).


----------



## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> Like, a, 1960 cab?



Yup, you got it. I git a little likker in me and I'll steal the paint off the walls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

plankbadger said:


> Hello there,
> 
> The JCM 900 SLX has 4 pre-amp tubes. What do they all do and what should I replace them with? I get a bit of hiss when I turn up the gain nob - more than before.



Well I spent an hour looking for info on your amp and didn't have any luck. The Dr. Tube website had a horrible schematic. Based on my prior knowledge, the first three tubes are gain stage tubes and the third is the tone stack/cathode follower circuit and the fourth is the Phase Inverter. I am friends with the techs, so I will verify this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

plankbadger said:


> Hello there,
> 
> The JCM 900 SLX has 4 pre-amp tubes. What do they all do and what should I replace them with? I get a bit of hiss when I turn up the gain nob - more than before.



Got the info you were looking for from one of our ace tech/amp builders, Joey Voltage. Here is the rundown.

V1a - Gain Stage
v1b - CF to Gain Pot (1-10) to V2a Grid
V2a - Gain Stage to Gain Pot (10-20)
V2b - Gain Stage
V3a - Gain Stage
v3b - CF to Tone Stack to Op Amp Buffer.

So you still want a good tube in V1, because your first gain stage in V1a.

Do you want the NOS rundown or the current production?


----------



## plankbadger

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got the info you were looking for from one of our ace tech/amp builders, Joey Voltage. Here is the rundown.
> 
> V1a - Gain Stage
> v1b - CF to Gain Pot (1-10) to V2a Grid
> V2a - Gain Stage to Gain Pot (10-20)
> V2b - Gain Stage
> V3a - Gain Stage
> v3b - CF to Tone Stack to Op Amp Buffer.
> 
> So you still want a good tube in V1, because your first gain stage in V1a.
> 
> Do you want the NOS rundown or the current production?



Hi Marty, 
You are a legend. 
So I'm guessing the 4 tubes are they numbered like this left-right from the rear of the amp?

1: is preamp volume 0-10
2: is gain sensitivity 0-20
3: is master volume 0-10
4: is used for the tone controls

Yes, if you could tell me what would be good tubes for current production
I'd be very grateful. I'm in the UK and the main suppliers are
Watford Valves :: Watford valves is a U.K company that has become one of Europe's leading supliers of tested, graded and guaranteed valves to the professional music industry.
Hot Rox UK - Computer Matched Valves Guitar effects pedals Electro harmonix Guitar Strings


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Ratt, dig this auction. Saw it the other day, but now it is just plum ridiculous. I hope my wholesaler doesn't see this or we're all screwed. No wonder we all like them...better than a Telefunken.

3 RAYTHEON BLACK PLATE 12AX7 TUBES REPLACES TELEFUNKEN - eBay (item 320504177607 end time Mar-25-10 17:50:41 PDT)

Item=320504177607


----------



## MartyStrat54

plankbadger said:


> Hi Marty,
> You are a legend.
> So I'm guessing the 4 tubes are they numbered like this left-right from the rear of the amp?
> 
> 1: is preamp volume 0-10
> 2: is gain sensitivity 0-20
> 3: is master volume 0-10
> 4: is used for the tone controls
> 
> Yes, if you could tell me what would be good tubes for current production
> I'd be very grateful. I'm in the UK and the main suppliers are
> Watford Valves :: Watford valves is a U.K company that has become one of Europe's leading supliers of tested, graded and guaranteed valves to the professional music industry.
> Hot Rox UK - Computer Matched Valves Guitar effects pedals Electro harmonix Guitar Strings



No you are a little off on how you perceive your preamp tubes. You see a 12AX7 is two circuits inside the tube. They can do two jobs. The circuits are called Triode A and Triode B.

Basically, it is like this:

V1A-Primary Gain Stage
V1B-Cathode Follower to Gain Pot (1-10) to V2A Grid (Ties into V2A)
V2A-Gain Stage to Gain Pot (10-20)
V2B-Gain Stage
V3A -Gain Stage
V3B - Cathode Follower to Tone Stack to Op Amp Buffer.
V4AB-Phase Inverter (Power Amp Section)

This amp lives up to its name with massive amounts of gain. V1A, V2A, V2B and V3A are your four stages of gain. I would go with a Tung-Sol in V1 and then a hand select high gain Mullard RI in V2 and another Tung-Sol in V3.

If you want to turn it into a crunch machine with a minimal clean, then go with two hand select high gain Mullard RI's in V2 and V3.

You don't need gold pins or a perfectly balanced Phase Inverter tube.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, I can't believe that someone paid $166 bucks for three of those tubes. How did he do that? I think it is incredible, because he didn't put down any testing information and they sold for so much. Must have been some real ignorant people.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Oh and I wanted to say that I had a great time at band practice last night. Everything is still sounding good. I just came on for a little bit as I have some stuff to do. I'll catch up with you all LTR.


----------



## ken361

anybody home?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Looks like the bar has been closed all day.


----------



## AxlOz

just to shed some more light on the SL-X models, i have a 50w 5881 version (australian) that has sovtek 6L6WGC power valves and has in v2,3,4 what seem to be original marshall branded ECC83's with white print on them. v1 has an unbranded 12ax7 that just has ECC83* (* = something i cant identify - looks like it was an I or something in caps) printed in red.

Anyone able to ID the v1 tube?

Next, after reading a few posts back about what tubes do what, I swapped out v2 for a sovtek 12ax7WC. The WC's seem to be a lot cleaner than other sovtek 12ax7's, and its actually now made the SL-X even more flexible for me. It has opened up the tone a little, cleaning it up a LOT when the 'sensitivity' dial is set below half way, so amazingly good for bluesy solos etc. It also helps take some fizz out of sustaining notes when I add more to the sensitivity dial.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Generally, if it's printed in red and inside a Marshall, it's a Shuguang Chinese tube. The white Marshall's are probably Sovtek tubes, like a WA or WB. I don't care much for them. Marshall has a nasty habit of using the cheapest tubes for original equipment. If you were to get a couple of good tubes in that SLX it would scare you.


----------



## AxlOz

yeah think i might try and get hold of some decent NOS valves, particularly for v1 and v3. I'm also now thinking of trying a lower gain tube (12 AU7 or something..) on the v2 socket. I really like the warmth i get when turning the preamp volume (v1) up to about 8~9, but the sensitivity dial (v2) starts to put too much gain in too quickly when v1 is rocked up.. This wont damage anything will it..?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That 12AU7 will neuter your amp. Instead, try a 5751. This will lower the gain and be a better choice for what you want to do. This tube still has good tonal qualities. The next step down is a 12AT7. This tube to me is a little flat sounding in a gain stage. It basically is used as a reverb driver or a phase inverter tube.


----------



## AxlOz

good to know, thanks marty!
a quick google tells me the 5751 was stevie ray's tube of choice, so i guess it must be doin something right! tubedepot recommends the JAN branded NOS flavour, hopefully i can get hold of one here in AU..

Any recommendations for a replacement 12ax7 in v1? I'd like to warm the tone up as much as i can, but not lose too much gain if possible.

I'm actually pretty excited to see what tones i can get out of this amp. After hearing the stock preamp tubes are pretty ordinary, and here I was thinking they were good coz they're reasonably old..


----------



## bones

Hello All,
Just joined a few weeks ago after buying a used TSL601 that I am playing through my 2-12 cab. No doubt others have bemoaned the length of this thread. I decided to attack it from both ends toward the middle. So far, from the information I have read I have been able to replace the preamp tubes with V1-NOS GE Gray Plate, V2-RCA BP, V3-Raytheon BP, V4 Tungsol RI (Not sure about V2 and V3 though beacuse I don't know which is which. If anyone can shed some light on this I would appreciate it). Very nice results.
Also got some 6CA7 RCA Fat Bottles waiting to go in when my Bias Rite shows up.
Thanks again to all.
Rick


----------



## Acesofbelkan

Well, Guys I have a little problem 
I bought a used TSL100 head and the first day it played great. But now somethings have been happening to it that I believe is one or more of the preamp tubes but I cant be completely sure. So im gonna try and organize the symptoms orderly:

-Low crackling noise that sounds like a mix between static and firewood burning. This crackling noise is exclusive to only the clean channel. The crunch and lead channels are unaffected by it.

-The crackling noise is unaffected by adjusting the volume on any channel higher or lower.

-Whenever I switch from the clean to the Lead/crunch channel there's a "pop" sound. This 'pop' is unaffected by any volume control on any channel too.

-Whenever I switch between Lead and crunch there's a 'pop' too. Except the pop is affected by the volume levels of both crunch and lead channels.

-I dont know if its my ears but I also noticed a small drop in clarity and sustain just now when I was playing it at loud bedroom levels.

I hope I organized it good. Sometimes I see people explain their problems in one huge pragraph so I wanna make things easy for everyone


----------



## MartyStrat54

AxlOz said:


> good to know, thanks marty!
> a quick google tells me the 5751 was stevie ray's tube of choice, so i guess it must be doin something right! tubedepot recommends the JAN branded NOS flavour, hopefully i can get hold of one here in AU..
> 
> Any recommendations for a replacement 12ax7 in v1? I'd like to warm the tone up as much as i can, but not lose too much gain if possible.
> 
> I'm actually pretty excited to see what tones i can get out of this amp. After hearing the stock preamp tubes are pretty ordinary, and here I was thinking they were good coz they're reasonably old..



For your style of playing, I would try a Raytheon Black Plate (medium gain) in V1. This is a very smooth, midrange tube. You were going to put the 5751 in V2, right? This would still be doable. Yes, you can get a new 5751 from the online tube stores. The Raytheon's are pricey in AU, so you might have to give EBAY a shot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

bones said:


> Hello All,
> Just joined a few weeks ago after buying a used TSL601 that I am playing through my 2-12 cab. No doubt others have bemoaned the length of this thread. I decided to attack it from both ends toward the middle. So far, from the information I have read I have been able to replace the preamp tubes with V1-NOS GE Gray Plate, V2-RCA BP, V3-Raytheon BP, V4 Tungsol RI (Not sure about V2 and V3 though beacuse I don't know which is which. If anyone can shed some light on this I would appreciate it). Very nice results.
> Also got some 6CA7 RCA Fat Bottles waiting to go in when my Bias Rite shows up.
> Thanks again to all.
> Rick



What if you put the RCA-BP in V1 and the Raytheon-BP in V2, the GE GP in V3 and the Tug-Sol RI in V4?

Also, RCA never made a 6CA7. They bought from two other companies and relabeled the tubes. What you have is probably some Sylvania 6CA7's. Don't get me wrong, this and the GE were excellent tubes. The 6CA7's were/are still Eddie Van Halen's favorite power tubes.

I got into buying them and I have quite a collection. Man they sound sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Acesofbelkan said:


> Well, Guys I have a little problem
> I bought a used TSL100 head and the first day it played great. But now somethings have been happening to it that I believe is one or more of the preamp tubes but I cant be completely sure. So im gonna try and organize the symptoms orderly:
> 
> -Low crackling noise that sounds like a mix between static and firewood burning. This crackling noise is exclusive to only the clean channel. The crunch and lead channels are unaffected by it.
> 
> -The crackling noise is unaffected by adjusting the volume on any channel higher or lower.
> 
> -Whenever I switch from the clean to the Lead/crunch channel there's a "pop" sound. This 'pop' is unaffected by any volume control on any channel too.
> 
> -Whenever I switch between Lead and crunch there's a 'pop' too. Except the pop is affected by the volume levels of both crunch and lead channels.
> 
> -I dont know if its my ears but I also noticed a small drop in clarity and sustain just now when I was playing it at loud bedroom levels.
> 
> I hope I organized it good. Sometimes I see people explain their problems in one huge pragraph so I wanna make things easy for everyone



When you buy an amp, it is a very good idea to buy new tubes. Then you know what you truly have and how old they are. I want to say that V1 is possibly bad. This is the tube with the shiny shield on it. The shield twists off. Once you have the shield off, turn on your amp and tap the V1 tube lightly with a wooden pencil. Do you hear any strange noises? Do this to the other tubes as well. 

Also, it is a good idea to get some high quality spray contact cleaner. Remove all of your tubes (marking their positions) and turn off the amp. Spray the cleaner in all of the socket, power tubes as well. Let dry and then replace the tubes.

This is a good idea, but I think you may have a preamp and possibly a power tube getting ready to go. If the preamp tubes have "Marshall" written on them, keep them for spares, but replace them with better tubes. The same with the power tubes. If they say "Marshall" on them, they need to be replaced.


----------



## cram1rez51

Here it goes the first "pie in my face!". My question is on the JCM900 4500, when I crank the gain all the way to 10 on Channel A, is that the pre-amp tubes or is that the power amps. My confusion comes from when I bought "oh crap I just blew my amp's power tubes" - tubes before a gig, they were rated at medium break up or 4. I am thinking it may be time to switch before the next re-bias, but now I'm just befuddled! Channel A - Power Tubes, Channel B - pre amp! Help me brethren!


----------



## AxlOz

cram1rez51 said:


> Here it goes the first "pie in my face!". My question is on the JCM900 4500, when I crank the gain all the way to 10 on Channel A, is that the pre-amp tubes or is that the power amps. My confusion comes from when I bought "oh crap I just blew my amp's power tubes" - tubes before a gig, they were rated at medium break up or 4. I am thinking it may be time to switch before the next re-bias, but now I'm just befuddled! Channel A - Power Tubes, Channel B - pre amp! Help me brethren!



I think you have a few things confused here, so i'll try and explain this as simply as i can.
Firstly, the preamp and poweramp are both running, all the time (unless you use your send & return at the rear of the amp..). When you plug your guitar in, it sends its signal through the input to the preamp (small tubes) section. This section 'colours' the signal and has all the adjustments (bass, mid, treb, presence, and gain knobs) as part of this 'colouring'. From here, the signal then passes through the power amp (big tubes) section, which essentially just makes whatever signal has come from the preamp section bucket loads louder. This then goes to your speakers and comes out as you hear it.

Now as far as channel switching goes (a tech can correct me here if i'm mistaken), channel A is clean, and channel B is crunch/distortion. This channel switch is part of the preamp circuit, and a 4500 simpy engages a clipping (read - distortion) curcuit when channel B is engaged, and bypasses it when channel A is engaged. Again, this then goes through to the power amp as the 'coloured' signal, where its made bucket loads louder, and then comes out the speakers.

So in answer to your question, if you crank the gain knob up, you're effectively warming up the preamp tubes. The power amp tubes will only run warmer/harder when you crank the master volume up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm sure you know about your 4500DR. It really doesn't have a normal valve preamp. It is basically a hybrid amp. For the most part, it is a solid state pre-section combined with a tube power section. The term you hear used is "clipper diodes." Basically the 900 4500DR has a solid state distortion pedal built into the front preamp section. There is one tube that is in the signal that "adds tube warmth" to the signal, but other than that, it is a solid state pre. The other tubes are buffers, reverb drivers and phase inverter.

The "clipper diodes" are voltage sensitive, so the louder you turn up your amp, the harder the diodes clip. This is what is happening when you turn up your amp. The 4500DR is considered a high gain amp. The whole purpose of a high gain amp is to get the distortion from the preamp and send that signal to a clean power section. Example, my TSL is a high gain amp. When I get the amp smoking with distortion, it is just the preamp tubes being overdriven. The power amp for the most part is clean and reproducing the preamp distortion. Now, can you turn a high gain amp up so loud that you get power tube distortion? Yes you can, but it defeats how the amp was designed to operate. 

The old single channels like a Plexi, JTM-45, JMP, all the way to a JCM800 2003 or 2204 were designed to produce power tube distortion. These amps were made when playing loud on stage was a requirement. As a part of this, the amp's unique sound was discovered when it was played at very loud volumes. You get a combination of preamp tube distortion and power tube distortion.


----------



## bones

MartyStrat54 said:


> What if you put the RCA-BP in V1 and the Raytheon-BP in V2, the GE GP in V3 and the Tug-Sol RI in V4?
> 
> Also, RCA never made a 6CA7. They bought from two other companies and relabeled the tubes. What you have is probably some Sylvania 6CA7's. Don't get me wrong, this and the GE were excellent tubes. The 6CA7's were/are still Eddie Van Halen's favorite power tubes.
> 
> I got into buying them and I have quite a collection. Man they sound sweet.



Marty,
Thanks for the recommendation. I will try that configuration and get back. By the way, which is V2 and which is V3? I know that V1 is the one with the shield and V4 is behind the power tubes. But the other two are lined up from front to back of the chassis.


----------



## MartyStrat54

V1 has the shield and V2 is next to it with V3 in back and V4 the farthest from V1.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Bought a real hum dinger this week, a NOS Brimar with long black plates and a square getter, with original box aswell. Looks totally mint condition and works a bloody treat. I have not come across one with the orange/red lettering before.


----------



## ken361

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Bought a real hum dinger this week, a NOS Brimar with long black plates and a square getter, with original box aswell. Looks totally mint condition and works a bloody treat. I have not come across one with the orange/red lettering before.



sweet!!want!


----------



## RiverRatt

Can you buy those pin protectors somewhere? I like the black ones that come on Mullard tubes.


----------



## DeLorean

I'm looking at different options for a quad set of 12ax7's to put in my DSL401. I've had some great NOS tube suggestions from some of the guys here, but I was just wondering today whether there are any current production sets - i.e a matched quad which I can buy pretty much anywhere at a reasonable price but which would blow me away (bearing in mind I'm still using the stock Marshall tubes)?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

DeLorean said:


> I'm looking at different options for a quad set of 12ax7's to put in my DSL401. I've had some great NOS tube suggestions from some of the guys here, but I was just wondering today whether there are any current production sets - i.e a matched quad which I can buy pretty much anywhere at a reasonable price but which would blow me away (bearing in mind I'm still using the stock Marshall tubes)?



Pm sent

plus these look like very good value, for a little over £16 you would get 3 very good V3 and V4 tubes.

3 1950's GE 12ax7a tubes-gray plates/ top getter TESTED on eBay (end time 06-Apr-10 05:40:56 BST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

DSL401 CP Tubes:

V1-Tung-Sol
V2-Mullard RI Hand Select High Gain
V3-EH
V4-EH


----------



## MartyStrat54

SOTA-That tube is museum stock. It is to perfect to put in an amp. Make a necklace out of it or something. Damn, that's a pretty tube.


----------



## ken361

off the topic for a sec plz, any of you guys or gals know of any free software that i can record video strait from my web cam then save the file then put it with a guitar track??


----------



## DeLorean

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Pm sent
> 
> plus these look like very good value, for a little over £16 you would get 3 very good V3 and V4 tubes.
> 
> 3 1950's GE 12ax7a tubes-gray plates/ top getter TESTED on eBay (end time 06-Apr-10 05:40:56 BST)



Thanks for that mate, The only thing that concerns me a little is buying tubes from overseas from a seller who does not accept returns/refunds, quite a few other sellers I've found will accept returns if a faulty tube is supplied.


----------



## dave999z

Greetings. Just wondering if some of you tube gurus could offer thoughts on my setup.

--My preamp is an ADA MP-2. (Don't hate me because it's not a Marshall. I love it.) It uses two 12AX7 tubes. It has many different voicings and the circuit (from what I read) is complicated.

--My power amp is a Marshall rackmount EL34 50/50 (picked it up a few weeks back on eBay - never had a tube power amp before - OMFG i love it). On each side, it has a 12AX7 driver, a 12AT7 phase inverter, and two EL34 power tubes.

--Cabinet right now is a 1960A (G12-T75 speakers). May change that to a 1960AV (V30 speakers) at some point in the future.

Right now the preamp has Chinese groove tubes, and the power amp has "Marshall"-labeled 12AX7 and 12AT7, and Svetlana EL34s. Sound of this rig is very good already. But I think it could get better, especially the highs, and the clean tones in general don't really have that (Mesa-like) sparkle and open ring to them. I want a *versatile*, solid sound. Mid-range clean chords are very important - I want them to be transparent but with nice overtones. BUT every other tone is important too... I want sparkling open cleans, thick low end (i don't want the clean lows to be honky or buzzing, i want the dirty lows to friggin' burn but not the scooped death metal sound), breakup should be smooth, round overdrive, swirling harmonics, and singing highs that cut but aren't harsh. Not too much to ask, right?

I'm considering a matched quad of Siemens NOS EL34 power tubes (about $280 for the set). And I'm considering NOS Mullard CV4024 ($30 ea.) 12AT7 with matched triodes for the phase inverters. Those seem like good choices?

I'm not sure about the 12AX7s for the ADA or for the Marshall. Recommendations on reasonably affordable, versatile NOS tubes for those slots would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Had a hunch this one would have a slanted getter when i bought it, but could not see for sure from the pictures on the auction. Also no idea who made it but I thought i'd be able to tell when it arrived, but aside from a very slight part of ECC83 being left of the screen print there is nothing to tell me who produced it(boxed up as a Zaerix). Im guessing Matsushita as the only other slant getter i know off is the Valvo and im pretty sure this isnt one of those.


----------



## MartyStrat54

dave999z said:


> Greetings. Just wondering if some of you tube gurus could offer thoughts on my setup.
> 
> --My preamp is an ADA MP-2. (Don't hate me because it's not a Marshall. I love it.) It uses two 12AX7 tubes. It has many different voicings and the circuit (from what I read) is complicated.
> 
> --My power amp is a Marshall rackmount EL34 50/50 (picked it up a few weeks back on eBay - never had a tube power amp before - OMFG i love it). On each side, it has a 12AX7 driver, a 12AT7 phase inverter, and two EL34 power tubes.
> 
> --Cabinet right now is a 1960A (G12-T75 speakers). May change that to a 1960AV (V30 speakers) at some point in the future.
> 
> Right now the preamp has Chinese groove tubes, and the power amp has "Marshall"-labeled 12AX7 and 12AT7, and Svetlana EL34s. Sound of this rig is very good already. But I think it could get better, especially the highs, and the clean tones in general don't really have that (Mesa-like) sparkle and open ring to them. I want a *versatile*, solid sound. Mid-range clean chords are very important - I want them to be transparent but with nice overtones. BUT every other tone is important too... I want sparkling open cleans, thick low end (i don't want the clean lows to be honky or buzzing, i want the dirty lows to friggin' burn but not the scooped death metal sound), breakup should be smooth, round overdrive, swirling harmonics, and singing highs that cut but aren't harsh. Not too much to ask, right?
> 
> I'm considering a matched quad of Siemens NOS EL34 power tubes (about $280 for the set). And I'm considering NOS Mullard CV4024 ($30 ea.) 12AT7 with matched triodes for the phase inverters. Those seem like good choices?
> 
> I'm not sure about the 12AX7s for the ADA or for the Marshall. Recommendations on reasonably affordable, versatile NOS tubes for those slots would be most welcome.
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Dave, please don't take this wrong, but in your post you state how well you like your setup, but then you compose a lengthy paragraph describing all the tones you want.

Bottom line, tubes are not going to do all that. You only have one gain tube per side in the ADA, the rest is solid state. The ADA is a lot like a Blackstar 5W without the power tube. You have a lot of solid state shaping the tone and then a 12AX7 is strategically placed in the circuit to add tube warmth and phatness. Changing these to a matched set of premium tubes will make some difference, but going by how the unit is designed, it isn't going to knock you off your feet.

The same with the Marshall power amp. I'm not a 100 percent sure, but I think that amp was designed to have a certain voltage signal applied externally to make it reach full output. Does the 50/50 have a gain function? The older models did. If you have a gain function, then the 12AX7 is a gain tube. It may just use one side of the tube for an extra gain stage, it may not be using both sides. I wasn't able to find a schematic for it to look. However, the bottom line is you have a preamp tube and a gain tube to work with. Using a premium setup like an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken in your ADA will make some improvement in overall tone. Now how well a Raytheon Black Plate will do in this setup, I don't know. None of us have a rig like this. 

However, to open the amp up a little more, I would do away with the 12AT7 and use a 12AX7 for the PI instead. It does not have to be perfectly balanced. If someone told you this, they are wrong. It would be more to your advantage to try and get two close matched premium tubes for your ADA, although a slight mismatch will not cause any problems.

Yes, I wish I could tell you that certain tubes would do all that you want, but that's not the case. NOS tubes do provide their own voicing and when certain tubes are matched with each other, it is a marvelous sound over Sovtek or JJ tubes.

I think that if you have the money, do the upgrade on the valves and then you may want to do a speaker change, as this will make a very noticeable difference in your sound.


----------



## dave999z

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dave, please don't take this wrong, but in your post you state how well you like your setup, but then you compose a lengthy paragraph describing all the tones you want.



I won't take it the wrong way. But I don't know how it's that different than what everyone else does on here. If I don't tell you what I want, you can't help me find it. What I have is probably 80% or more of what I want (and it's closer than any other amp I've found, or I'd have that amp instead  ). Isn't everyone on here chasing that last 20, 10, 5, 2, 1 pecent?




MartyStrat54 said:


> You only have one gain tube per side in the ADA, the rest is solid state. The ADA is a lot like a Blackstar 5W without the power tube. You have a lot of solid state shaping the tone and then a 12AX7 is strategically placed in the circuit to add tube warmth and phatness.



Actually, the ADA uses both 12AX7s and *then* splits the signal into stereo to go to the effects loop. I'm sure there is solid state tone shaping, but no more so than in a JMP-1 (or JCM900?).




MartyStrat54 said:


> Changing these to a matched set of premium tubes will make some difference, but going by how the unit is designed, it isn't going to knock you off your feet.
> 
> The same with the Marshall power amp. I'm not a 100 percent sure, but I think that amp was designed to have a certain voltage signal applied externally to make it reach for output. Does the 50/50 have a gain function?



The sound of the ADA and the Marshall do knock me off my feet, which I probably didn't convey enough, though I tried (said I "love" both).

Yep, the Marshall 50/50 has a gain and presence control on each side.




MartyStrat54 said:


> Using a premium setup like an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken in your ADA will make some improvement in overall tone. Now how well a Raytheon Black Plate will do in this setup, I don't know. None of us have a rig like this.
> 
> However, to open the amp up a little more, I would do away with the 12AT7 and use a 12AX7 for the PI instead. It does not have to be perfectly balanced. If someone told you this, they are wrong. It would be more to your advantage to try and get two close matched premium tubes for your ADA, although a slight mismatch will not cause any problems.
> 
> Yes, I wish I could tell you that certain tubes would do all that you want, but that's not the case. NOS tubes do provide their own voicing and when certain tubes are matched with each other, it is a marvelous sound over Sovtek or JJ tubes.



Thanks for the ideas. If you know of specific vendors or eBay auctions, that'd be great, because, e.g., I wouldn't know how to pick the right "Telefunken" or know whether I'm getting ripped off.

Re using a matched triode for the PI, I got that idea here:
Matched Sections Service




MartyStrat54 said:


> I think that if you have the money, do the upgrade on the valves and then you may want to do a speaker change, as this will make a very noticeable difference in your sound.



That's the plan. Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

I was sure there was some reference to someting like this valve earlier on and came across this old chesnut way back from page 70 something or other
it was the holes cut into the plates going all the way through that was the intriguing part.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Man this is the longest page in the thread. Maybe after I post these pictures it will bump over to page 76.
> 
> As promised for the Ratt Man, here are pictures of the Raytheon Slant Getter that might be made by Valvo. Up next to it is one of the five Matsushita Slant Getters I bought. I've already tested two of them (see prior post). The Matsushita's were made on Mullard equipment and that is why the plate (holes) are like a Mullard and not like the Valvo. Also, the O Getter is fastened differently. Other than that, they are pretty close. Conlusion-The Raytheon is not a Japanese made tube. Probably made by Valvo or Miniwatt. Here are some beauty shots.








So it looks like its one of these, Valvo or miniwatt which cheers me. Sound great either way.


----------



## rykus

just thought i'd throw my two cents in,i only made it through the first thirty or so page's when some new (to me) tubes showed up for me to try. i had already been using some old rca's from a silvertone that i had as a kid. and i love those tube's but after i bought an old telefunkin logn plate from my amp tech i ordered some old amprex and valvo tube's.... then i started reading this thread and we'll needless to say i've bought a few more.... so far the valvo's are the one's that seem to stay in my test amp (pignose, 3 12ax7 , 2 6l6) v1 & v2 with a rca in v3, but i'm totally blown away with the difference in sound and volume between the different combos of tubes, and i've got lots for pretty cheap compared to new tubes. definatly worth putting a bit aside for as i have got better tone from these tubes than MANY of the cheaper pedals i have bought, so if youve been reading this thread and humming and hawing over the value of old tubes or are worried about ebay id say give ita shot, only pay what your comforatble paying and get bigger lots or multiples from someone who will combine shipping or costs go up huge. have fun and good luck.......i can't wait for my vinage mullard power tubes to compare against the re issues in my super bass!


----------



## MartyStrat54

dave999z said:


> Actually, the ADA uses both 12AX7s and *then* splits the signal into stereo to go to the effects loop. I'm sure there is solid state tone shaping, but no more so than in a JMP-1 (or JCM900?).



Thank you for explaining the ADA. I wouldn't have thought they would run the tubes that way, but since they do, you should be able to run like a Telefunken and then a Raytheon Black Plate in the ADA for the best tone.



> Thanks for the ideas. If you know of specific vendors or eBay auctions, that'd be great, because, e.g., I wouldn't know how to pick the right "Telefunken" or know whether I'm getting ripped off.



Well if you see anything on EBAY send me a PM and I will tell you what I think. I do that for a lot of people. I also am a tube dealer. You can contact me for more info (via PM).



> Re using a matched triode for the PI, I got that idea here:
> Matched Sections Service



Yeah the big tube stores like to preach that. If you ask any competent tech, they will tell you it's not necessary, especially in a guitar amp.

I would love to help you, feel free to PM me at any time.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I was sure there was some reference to someting like this valve earlier on and came across this old chesnut way back from page 70 something or other
> it was the holes cut into the plates going all the way through that was the intriguing part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So it looks like its one of these, Valvo or miniwatt which cheers me. Sound great either way.



I think that the Raytheon is a Matushita, too. AFAIK, most if not all of the post-USA production is Japanese, and not even the same factory. I've seen a lot that look like Toshiba tubes. You have to remember, too, that this was way back in our evolutionary past. Marty found that Raytheon, then we started looking pretty hard at Matsushitas. I lucked out and got 3 for $5 each with free shipping. I thought right away that they sounded like a Mullard, but better. They do share a strong resemblance, except for the getters. I sent one to Joe to play with and he thought the same thing and ended up keeping it. I've picked up a few Mats since then, and the slant-getters are great. The first batch I got was old, from back in the late '50s, and they had slant-D getters.. If you want these, bid high - I'll be watching.
The Halo getters IMO are inferior to any of the slant getters. They are strong, utility tubes but don't expect to find the holy grail of tone in one of these.

I'm not saying your tube couldn't be a Valvo, but the odds are that it's a Matsushita. 

I've got a line on a Siemens-Halske smooth plate. I think I'm going to pull the trigger.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's my Matsushita D-getters. Notice the apparent lack of any holes in the plates. Most of the later Matsushitas have a hole all the way through like Mullards.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Bought a real hum dinger this week, a NOS Brimar with long black plates and a square getter, with original box aswell. Looks totally mint condition and works a bloody treat. I have not come across one with the orange/red lettering before.



Dammit spirit you beat me to it haha! that really is a rare valve!

I was hoping to snatch that one but you outbid me good 

Iv just picked up a Mullard Cv4004 /ecc83 for 6.50! tested really good.

then iv got another couple im bidding on.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Had a hunch this one would have a slanted getter when i bought it, but could not see for sure from the pictures on the auction. Also no idea who made it but I thought i'd be able to tell when it arrived, but aside from a very slight part of ECC83 being left of the screen print there is nothing to tell me who produced it(boxed up as a Zaerix). Im guessing Matsushita as the only other slant getter i know off is the Valvo and im pretty sure this isnt one of those.



haha you beat me by 50p on that one aswell! i think its a battle between me and you now on UK ebay! haha


----------



## dave999z

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would love to help you, feel free to PM me at any time.



Very cool, thanks. I will be PM'ing you.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here's my Matsushita D-getters. Notice the apparent lack of any holes in the plates. Most of the later Matsushitas have a hole all the way through like Mullards.



So far my favorite Matsushita. I tried the new NOS NIB EI(70's stock)and its a nice tube. The problem I'm having is getting use to the DSL's revoicing and reading tubes. So I need to spend more time with it. What I did notice is it went into harmonic feedback more readily. It and the Telefunken(ribbed)reacted that way. 

I think I will plop the Mat's I got from you into the Monza and see how it reacts. It likes a Telefunken(SP)in V1. Really sings while soloing.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> haha you beat me by 50p on that one aswell! i think its a battle between me and you now on UK ebay! haha



Well its funny isn't it, I swore off buying anymore a while back but i keep spotting potential little bargains and get carried away . You are safe though i stopped watching all the valve auctions today as i need to go cold turkey!


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Well its funny isn't it, I swore off buying anymore a while back but i keep spotting potential little bargains and get carried away . You are safe though i stopped watching all the valve auctions today as i need to go cold turkey!



haha id better swoop in then and get my collection now before you start your addiction again 

I bet that brimar sounds awesome! how does it sound?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> haha id better swoop in then and get my collection now before you start your addiction again
> 
> I bet that brimar sounds awesome! how does it sound?




It does sound good as good as any other i have, trouble is its a long plate and im running a longplate (raytheon BP) in V2 so when i engage OD2 on the combo i get some odd sound artifacts on certain notes. I put a short plate philips in V2 to see if the problem went (and also a short plate in V1 and the Raythen in V2) and sure enough the problem vanished. So If i want to use the raytheon as my V2 (and i do as it sound great in there) i need to use a SP in V1 so it looks as if i have to compromise a little to help keep things sounding sweet.
Maybe if i had a head rather than a combo it would work better, maybe i should get a head and cab and ditch the combo  or i could sell of all the longplates i have and buy lots of short plates


----------



## ariansyaz

hi Gurus. just got some mail a few days ago. good ol' nos stuff. ( i hope).

could u guys identify and date these 12ax7 tubes? on the left is a mullard yellow logo. center is a mullard white logo and extreme right is a brimar. no test results available.

along with these, i have some 80's JAN philipsECG 5751 USA, a NOS CANADIAN made GE 12at7, a sovtek 12ax7LPS, svetlana 12ax7, JJEcc83 and some early 2000's original marshalls 12ax7.

after helping me identifying those NOS tubes, could you guys help me with some suggestions BASED ON WHAT I CURRENTLY HAVE?

i play everything from classic rock to metal. and i prefer 'BRIGHT CLEANS' on the clean channel and a 'THICK SOLID' dirty channel with smooth "not too piercing" leads. my amp is a DSL100 and i normally add some boost with a JAPANESE IBANEZ TS9DX .

based on these, how do u great guys suggest i line-up the pre-amp tubes in my amp? 

really appreciate all suggestions. (photos of the NOS tubes below)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Need the type of amp. 

Also, with no test results, you are going to have to manually roll each tube to see which one sounds best in what slot.

Those are all great tubes, you should be able to get the tone you want.

What caught my eye was you said you had some preamp tubes from an early 2000 series. Those are probably Ei tubes and they are good one's too.

As far as the tubes go, late 50's to 60's production. If the tube still has "BVA" on it is is usually an older tube. 12AX7's came out in 1947 and I believe that the ECC83 came out in 1949. We gave the technology to the UK and Europe and they ended up making better stuff.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello Marty. I got BP tonight and I think you have practice as well. I hope your Sunday gig goes well.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

What is the consensus on Valves for the DSL100
i'm sure by now you guys have setup recommendations for both pre and power
valves...right now i have a set of stock Marshall's for power and all JJ's for the pre...i tried a set of GTel34l's when i first repaired my head but i did not like them....but i also did not have the MM OT and choke yet either


----------



## ariansyaz

u got the same amp as mine BUGSY.crosby. jcm2000 DSL100. lest see what the concensus is eh....


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a DSL50, and you're not going to get me to deviate much from the proven formula. First off, the amp is bone stock. No mods at all, unless they were done by a previous owner and were hidden really well. I run a Tele smooth plate or a Matsushita D-getter in V1, Raytheon Black plate in V2, Sylvania green label in V3, and my new favorite V4 PI tube - the nuclear-powered Raytheon JRP 12AX7. I couldn't be caught out without a pair of RFTs in the power section, either. If I'm playing out, I try to keep the master on 3 or 4, and go between the clean channel with the gain at around 8-10 or the crunch channel with the gain from 6 to 10. This gets me in the ballpark of probably 90% of the songs I do. 

These aren't terribly expensive tubes, you just have to watch eBay really closely and learn how to spot the bargains.

Case in point: I just picked up this little jewel for $15. It was sold as a "Russian Smooth plate 12AX7/ECC83 Tube". In reality it looks to be a Siemens & Halske telefunken copy.






I said I wasn't going to buy anything for awhile, either, but I couldn't pass that one up. I hope my hand is healed up enough I can play by the time it gets here. I was doing yard work this afternoon, and I was changing lawnmower blades. The wrench slipped, and my left hand was in the way. Now I have a knot the size of a quarter between my thumb and index finger that is slowly leaking fluids. It looks nasty. Hurts a little, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a DSL50, and you're not going to get me to deviate much from the proven formula. First off, the amp is bone stock. No mods at all, unless they were done by a previous owner and were hidden really well. I run a Tele smooth plate or a Matsushita D-getter in V1, Raytheon Black plate in V2, Sylvania green label in V3, and my new favorite V4 PI tube - the nuclear-powered Raytheon JRP 12AX7. I couldn't be caught out without a pair of RFTs in the power section, either. If I'm playing out, I try to keep the master on 3 or 4, and go between the clean channel with the gain at around 8-10 or the crunch channel with the gain from 6 to 10. This gets me in the ballpark of probably 90% of the songs I do.
> 
> These aren't terribly expensive tubes, you just have to watch eBay really closely and learn how to spot the bargains.
> 
> Case in point: I just picked up this little jewel for $15. It was sold as a "Russian Smooth plate 12AX7/ECC83 Tube". In reality it looks to be a Siemens & Halske telefunken copy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I said I wasn't going to buy anything for awhile, either, but I couldn't pass that one up. I hope my hand is healed up enough I can play by the time it gets here. I was doing yard work this afternoon, and I was changing lawnmower blades. The wrench slipped, and my left hand was in the way. Now I have a knot the size of a quarter between my thumb and index finger that is slowly leaking fluids. It looks nasty. Hurts a little, too.



I have to agree with this V1/V2 knock out punch listed above for the DSL. Just seems to be a solid combination for blues/classic/hardrock. I might say metal too but I don't go there so I can't.

And ouch! Man that sounds like it hurt! Hope it resolves quick hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I have to agree with this V1/V2 knock out punch listed above for the DSL. Just seems to be a solid combination for blues/classic/hardrock. I might say metal too but I don't go there so I can't.
> 
> And ouch! Man that sounds like it hurt! Hope it resolves quick hehe.



I got a Fulltone Deja Vibe last week and I can't stay away from it, so I went and played for awhile anyway. It doesn't hurt as much as I thought it would - my hand is just a little stiff, except now there's blood all over my Les Paul (Rock -n- Roll!!!). 

I was just trying to think back to the old days. IIRC, I started the Telefunken and Matsushita craze, Marty supplied the Raytheon black plates that pretty much started us down this road, and you got the RFT going strong. You could go a long way with just those 4 tubes. 

When I started this, my preamp lineup was a couple of old RCA side-getter 12AX7s, a handful of weak GE tubes, and a Philco and Raytheon 12AT7. The DSL50 came with two Ei/Marshall ECC83s which stayed in a box for like a year. I thought that if they were branded Marshall, they had to suck.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, there's a pretty Matsushita on eBay ending in 5 hours, but it's untested and the seller doesn't accept returns. It's at $10.

12AX7 / ECC83 Vacuum Tube - Matsushita - Tested @ 90% - eBay (item 120550381621 end time Apr-01-10 23:22:43 PDT)


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got a Fulltone Deja Vibe last week and I can't stay away from it, so I went and played for awhile anyway. It doesn't hurt as much as I thought it would - my hand is just a little stiff, except now there's blood all over my Les Paul (Rock -n- Roll!!!).
> 
> I was just trying to think back to the old days. IIRC, I started the Telefunken and Matsushita craze, Marty supplied the Raytheon black plates that pretty much started us down this road, and you got the RFT going strong. You could go a long way with just those 4 tubes.
> 
> When I started this, my preamp lineup was a couple of old RCA side-getter 12AX7s, a handful of weak GE tubes, and a Philco and Raytheon 12AT7. The DSL50 came with two Ei/Marshall ECC83s which stayed in a box for like a year. I thought that if they were branded Marshall, they had to suck.



That's what is so cool about this thread is the evolution of tubes we rolled and how finding out that a good V1/V2 combination would really get our DSL's circuit sounding its best. Power tubes important as well of course. Marty set me up with my first preamp pack. RCA 12AX7A, GE, something else and a Magnavox. I noticed dynamic changes. Not night and day but notable IMO. The rest is history and played out here for everyone to see. For what I play NOS make a difference tone/feel wise. Its ok others don't think so.

I've still got the EI(MINT NOS NIB 1970s Pre-War Ei Smooth Plate ECC83 12AX7 with Edicron London Label and Box. Etched date code of (semicircle with dot)xx for Nish Plant from former Yugoslavia. Construction is very similar to Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83. V1 and it close to my Telefunken. Very nice tube and I like it in V1. I have yet to try it in other spots cause I wanted to get a solid read on it from V1. These are good tubes.

I would like to get a Brimar next. I haven't tried a Brimar 12AX7.

Brand New MINT NOS Rare Late 1960s BRIMAR CV4035 Box Plate BVA Military tubes. CV4035 Flying Lead is Premium Grade, High Reliability Long Life version of CV4004/ECC83/12AX7 valves. Painted STC Date Codes may not be visible on all tubes. Made in Engla


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got a Fulltone Deja Vibe last week and I can't stay away from it, so I went and played for awhile anyway. It doesn't hurt as much as I thought it would - my hand is just a little stiff, except now there's blood all over my Les Paul (Rock -n- Roll!!!).



This pedal sounds intriguing. I've never used one but hear good things about them. Would fit into some of the styles I play. Way to bleed for the R&R!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I forgot to bid on four mint Matsushita Slant Top Getter. They went for $42. Where's the icon that shows me kicking myself in the ass?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

on average how much would i be looking at for the pre and power valves
i dont mind spending some cash for good tone but i'm also not looking to spend more than the head is worth


----------



## rykus

i sliced my 1st finger on my fretting hand but good last night right in the middle, and i just orderd a full set of old tubes for a new amp i'm getting in. aaaarrrgggg ,i feel your pain and i hope i can electric tape mine up enough to stop the strings from sliding into the gash cause i have a feeling that wouldn't feel particulatilly nice. the amprex holland tubes i got the other day sound nice though yesterday when i could still enjoy them. not as dark and warm as the valvo's but not as peircing and bright as telefunken. so far my collection is 2valvo, 1 tele lp, 2 12ax7a grey plate rca, 2 seimens? lp with the daimond like the tele, and a amperex bugle boy i still haven't got to trying cause i got them with the valvos and they sounded so good i forgot to keep rollin, i gave in and did a buy it now for 60 bucks for some lp raytheon that tested over new cause you guys keep raving about them so i'll try and roll through some more and post my thoughts, so far i think i like the valvos best , rca then amprex, the seimens / telefunken seem a bit bright but i haven't tried em with the les paul cause i've been goin through a strat thing... trying to clean up my sloppy playing habits.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rykus said:


> i gave in and did a buy it now for 60 bucks for some lp raytheon that tested over new cause you guys keep raving about them so i'll try and roll through some more and post my thoughts.



As long as they were Black Plates. The gray plates are considered utility tubes like a Sylvania.


----------



## Fixr1984

Anyone have any experience with Jet City Amplifiers? I picked up a 20 watt combo from them and it sounds pretty good. Got my TSL60 sounding good now and I want to see what I can do with this one. The current tubes are all marked made in china so im sure the quality is so so. How would I go about finding out what each tube is for. (V1, V2, etc). There are 3 12ax7's for the preamp and 2 for the reverb. I would like to start with the preamps and do the reverb tubes later but like I said I dont know how to find out what ones they are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Fixr1984 said:


> Anyone have any experience with Jet City Amplifiers? I picked up a 20 watt combo from them and it sounds pretty good. Got my TSL60 sounding good now and I want to see what I can do with this one. The current tubes are all marked made in china so im sure the quality is so so. How would I go about finding out what each tube is for. (V1, V2, etc). There are 3 12ax7's for the preamp and 2 for the reverb. I would like to start with the preamps and do the reverb tubes later but like I said I dont know how to find out what ones they are.



Well you basically have two 12AX7's that you need to address. The third is your PI tube and as you said the extra one's are reverb send/return. 

Also, the quality on these two tubes can be minimal as they are drivers and not gain "tone" stages.

I would go with a good Philips made tube in V1. This could be an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken, or other premium tube such as an Ei. Then a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. The PI tube could be kept Chinese, but I would go with a Sylvania Gray Plate in that slot.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Good response. Maybe I'll take you up on some tubes. Oh! I already have.

Making my rounds. You guys have a good one.


----------



## rykus

yeah they were black plates, i tried bidding on a few too, but haven't had the time to watch the auctions end and always got beat by 50 cents or so. so many good tubes to watch, i want to try some mullards as well but the$ is high, do the other philips sound close cause the german ones seem brighter than the holland ones so far. who made valvo?


----------



## Fixr1984

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you basically have two 12AX7's that you need to address. The third is your PI tube and as you said the extra one's are reverb send/return.
> 
> Also, the quality on these two tubes can be minimal as they are drivers and not gain "tone" stages.
> 
> I would go with a good Philips made tube in V1. This could be an Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken, or other premium tube such as an Ei. Then a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. The PI tube could be kept Chinese, but I would go with a Sylvania Gray Plate in that slot.



Thanks for the info.
Is there a way to tell what each tube is? Will the board be silkscreened with the tube numbers. None of the tubes have a shield so that rules out and easy find for V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked on the Jet City website, but there wasn't any info about tube location. I assume V1 will not have a tube on one side of it and V2 and V3 will be next to it.


----------



## Stymie13

Going through my tube stash today I found this. I think it came out of an old Carvin X100B I used to have. The ink is worn off but I think it says Carvin Premium Quality and then Hungary. Anyone know what this is? I think it may be a Tungsram 12AX7.


----------



## solarburn

Stymie13 said:


> Going through my tube stash today I found this. I think it came out of an old Carvin X100B I used to have. The ink is worn off but I think it says Carvin Premium Quality and then Hungary. Anyone know what this is? I think it may be a Tungsram 12AX7.



You may want to include the pic...


----------



## Stymie13

Damn I suck at this... sorry. I'll have it up in a minute!


----------



## Stymie13

Let's try this...


----------



## Stymie13

Why do my attachments always come out as thumbnails?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Stymie13 said:


> Let's try this...




Well im a mere amatuer but from my browsing of various tube sites that looks like a tungsram so your guess is correct. Double post support and the almost oval large cut out in the plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

The double posts are a good clue. Also, Tungsrams have a little metal tag with a 2-digit number on it, usually on one of the getter posts, but sometimes they are loose in the tube. Here's a picture of one that came out of an '80s Laney AOR: It's about the best shot I have.


----------



## Stymie13

Yeah there is a tag on one of the posts. I haven't spent the time to figure out how to post a decent photo, but thanks for the responses. Any preference for positions for these tubes? I haven't had a chance to try it yet.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had four Tungsrams that I never really found a reason to like. They are considered to be a dark tube, and excellent for use in guitar amps, but they just didn't do anything for me. I'm not saying they are bad tubes at all... a lot of people really love them. If it's low to moderate gain, I'd try it in V1 first, or V2 if it's a hotter tube. If you don't like it in those two, throw it in V4 and see what kind of phase inverter it makes.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I had four Tungsrams that I never really found a reason to like. They are considered to be a dark tube, and excellent for use in guitar amps, but they just didn't do anything for me. I'm not saying they are bad tubes at all... a lot of people really love them. If it's low to moderate gain, I'd try it in V1 first, or V2 if it's a hotter tube. If you don't like it in those two, throw it in V4 and see what kind of phase inverter it makes.



I didn't get any special feelings for the Tungstram either when I was rolling it. It wasn't bad but but I didn't get any "wow" factor from it.

The DSL's back. Turns out the OT was hurt'n in my amp. Changed it out and everything seems fine now.

Got to crank it and had the 70's stock EI in V1 when I did. Sounded perty good man. I'm going to roll some others in V1 cause the amps been tweaked voice wise some more now and the Tele may be a bit too articulate and clear for it. 

I told Jon if he got it any "tighter sounding" I wouldn't be able to get my instrument cable to plug in and play hehe. So I will roll some others in there. Think I'm going to put the Realistic you gave me in the Monza for awhile and see how I like that. A Tele SP sounds awesome in it though but I wasn't able to try your tube yet cause it was in the DSL while Jon had it.

The only tube I haven't tried yet that I want to is a Brimar. Damn expensive too! When I get some extra cash.


----------



## solarburn

Happy Easter everybody!


----------



## ken361

Same here on the tunsgram. Happy Easter and the easter bunny to bring us more tubes lol


----------



## Procter2812

Sweet.. Just got some bargains.... 

A mullard CV4004 for 6.50
A japanese 'TEN' 12AX7A tested 2.2ma/2.2ma for 6.00
Then... 8 mullard EL84's for 6.50!!!


Scoreeeee


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Sweet.. Just got some bargains....
> 
> A mullard CV4004 for 6.50
> A japanese 'TEN' 12AX7A tested 2.2ma/2.2ma for 6.00
> Then... 8 mullard EL84's for 6.50!!!
> 
> 
> Scoreeeee



Now that last one has to be the bargain of the century, wanna part with 4 of em?  .Just watched 4 valves go from the same seller, serperate auctions 2xbrimars with square getters and long black plates, they went for around £40 and £60 each. I have a couple of these, both NOS so im thinking do i stick on Ebay and turn a very nice profit on them or keep em and use em  

Also a mullard with a square getter almost like the one i have, mines form the mid 50's this one dated from the 70s, went for £70. I picked mine up for £10 delivered, again hold onto it and use it or put on Ebay. I just bought an extension cab, and selling these would be a nice way to cover a chunk of the cost.


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Now that last one has to be the bargain of the century, wanna part with 4 of em?  .Just watched 4 valves go from the same seller, serperate auctions 2xbrimars with square getters and long black plates, they went for around £40 and £60 each. I have a couple of these, both NOS so im thinking do i stick on Ebay and turn a very nice profit on them or keep em and use em
> 
> Also a mullard with a square getter almost like the one i have, mines form the mid 50's this one dated from the 70s, went for £70. I picked mine up for £10 delivered, again hold onto it and use it or put on Ebay. I just bought an extension cab, and selling these would be a nice way to cover a chunk of the cost.



Sweet... is that the Orange cab? They make great cabs!!

Yeah, when i get em im gonna keep four and sell four. Not sure if theyre matched but will let you know first if im gonna sell em.

I couldnt beleive id won em.. i put a max bid of £20 and thought ahh just leave it to run considering i dont have an EL84 amp... anyway i won em at 6.50 haha i was jumping around  

Im gonna get rid of a head then buy like a vox combo or something like that... something smaller than a half stack!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Procter2812 said:


> Sweet... is that the Orange cab? They make great cabs!!
> 
> Yeah, when i get em im gonna keep four and sell four. Not sure if theyre matched but will let you know first if im gonna sell em.
> 
> I couldnt beleive id won em.. i put a max bid of £20 and thought ahh just leave it to run considering i dont have an EL84 amp... anyway i won em at 6.50 haha i was jumping around
> 
> Im gonna get rid of a head then buy like a vox combo or something like that... something smaller than a half stack!




Yeah the orange 2x12, I just came across your post about you building that 2x12 cab, fantastic work, and I could not believe my eyes when i saw you are only 16, with such great taste in gear! I didnt even start playing untill I was 4 years older than you are now!


----------



## Procter2812

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Yeah the orange 2x12, I just came across your post about you building that 2x12 cab, fantastic work, and I could not believe my eyes when i saw you are only 16, with such great taste in gear! I didnt even start playing untill I was 4 years older than you are now!



haha cheers! yeah iv been playing guitar since i was 8! well started electric at age 11 or so.. so really 5 proper years solid.

That cab took me a fair while.. just because i wanted to get it right.. It looks so cool stacked on top of my 1936 etc..

i was gonna go with an orange bass cab design at first but then decided to stick with good old marshall sort of design but with my own twist which you havent seen yet 

In the back of the cab theres a separate sealed cabinet for storing leads etc.

its a cool feature.. when my camera charges il get a pic


----------



## thrawn86

Eighty more posts for this Thread to #4000!!! 

Hey Marty....just saw a Hammond organ in mint condition. Owner says 1964. Fulla tubes. Thoughts?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

$28 for these two shipped....did i do ok on my first venture?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110513113991&ssPageName
and 
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110513116550&ssPageName


----------



## RiverRatt

If the Raytheon is good, it's worth that price alone. The GE isn't my favorite tone tube, but they aren't bad. You might want to consider a Telefunken smooth plate or one of the less expensive Philips tubes (Matsushita, BEL, etc) or an RFT to go in front of the Raytheon. What kind of amp are you using?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Eighty more posts for this Thread to #4000!!!
> 
> Hey Marty....just saw a Hammond organ in mint condition. Owner says 1964. Fulla tubes. Thoughts?



Well from what I have sort of picked up, Baldwin used the Raytheon Black Plates, "but" Hammond used a lot of Philips tubes, mainly Amperex. Of course, 1964 is getting close to the big cut off, when solid state came out and the shit went down for tubes. Also, you don't know how many 12AX7's are in there. It might have a bunch of 12AU7's. Man it would be sweet if you could get a peak in the back to see what was in it. Also, the size of the organ dictates the amount of tubes. If you can get a look and see what it has, I would go in on it with you. It would have to have at least 20, 12AX7's of some special brand. Not RCA. It would have to say, "Made in Holland" on the tube, generally in red print, or "Made in Gt. Britain." On the other hand, if it does have Raytheon Black Plates, as I said ask to examine it and if it is full of tubes, start at $100 and go as high as $200.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

RiverRatt said:


> If the Raytheon is good, it's worth that price alone. The GE isn't my favorite tone tube, but they aren't bad. You might want to consider a Telefunken smooth plate or one of the less expensive Philips tubes (Matsushita, BEL, etc) or an RFT to go in front of the Raytheon. What kind of amp are you using?



DSL100 with a MM OT tranny and a 3mh choke.....after reading some of this soon to be out of control thread i may try a 12bz7 in the first position per one of Marty's posts...watching some Raytheon black plates now....and i might be able to get a pair of Brimars for free but we don't know if they work yet


----------



## Stymie13

RiverRatt said:


> I had four Tungsrams that I never really found a reason to like. They are considered to be a dark tube, and excellent for use in guitar amps, but they just didn't do anything for me. I'm not saying they are bad tubes at all... a lot of people really love them. If it's low to moderate gain, I'd try it in V1 first, or V2 if it's a hotter tube. If you don't like it in those two, throw it in V4 and see what kind of phase inverter it makes.



I tried it in my DSL 100 in V1 just to see what kinda flavor it had. It was way too noisy (probably why I pulled it out of that old Carvin) so it ended up in V4 where it sounded pretty good.


----------



## RiverRatt

Buggs.Crosby said:


> DSL100 with a MM OT tranny and a 3mh choke.....after reading some of this soon to be out of control thread i may try a 12bz7 in the first position per one of Marty's posts...watching some Raytheon black plates now....and i might be able to get a pair of Brimars for free but we don't know if they work yet



I tried a 12BZ7 and loved the Ultra channel with it in, but the crunch channel wasn't so great. If you can find a Raytheon JRP 12AX7, they are usually over the top gain-wise and will last a long time, too. Apparently Marshalls eat 12BZ7s.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

RiverRatt said:


> I tried a 12BZ7 and loved the Ultra channel with it in, but the crunch channel wasn't so great. If you can find a Raytheon JRP 12AX7, they are usually over the top gain-wise and will last a long time, too. Apparently Marshalls eat 12BZ7s.



Thanks for the heads up.....4 months ago multiple channels were necessary.....now i'm kinda one channel....ultra with switch out....i may do some mods also so i guess my first roll will be a waste....but i guess you gotta learn somewhere. that's why i mentioned earlier....rolling a few is one thing....what this head is worth is another....maybe i should read some of Solar's posts as he seems to have the closest to what i have...or at least he did before Jon got a hold of it


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Maybe i should mention i have some SED =C='s on the way as well


----------



## luekemeyer

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Maybe i should mention i have some SED =C='s on the way as well



That is what I just installed in my dsl..


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I tried a 12BZ7 and loved the Ultra channel with it in, but the crunch channel wasn't so great. If you can find a Raytheon JRP 12AX7, they are usually over the top gain-wise and will last a long time, too. Apparently Marshalls eat 12BZ7s.



I concur. 12BZ7's just don't like being in a Marshall amp. On top of that, they are basically for high gain use. They are not what I call a "fine wine" V2. They don't have what I call a nice tone. As Ratt said, if you are more of a high gain player, you can't go wrong with a super high gain 12AX7. Better tone at high volume and plenty of gain.


----------



## Procter2812

Iv just got a Mullard CV492/ECC83.

The plates, one triode has a circle cut out on both sides, on the other triode it has only one cut out. Bit odd.

It looks brand new, the code is I6 V4... Any ideas?


----------



## RiverRatt

Procter2812 said:


> Iv just got a Mullard CV492/ECC83.
> 
> The plates, one triode has a circle cut out on both sides, on the other triode it has only one cut out. Bit odd.
> 
> It looks brand new, the code is I6 V4... Any ideas?



Are those the only codes? Are they both on the same line, or is the V4 underneath the I6? 

I6 is the base code for an ECC83 tube type. I've never seen a letter following that code. If the V is a factory code, it was made by BEL in India, which doesn't seem likely, either.

Post a pic if you can.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> Are those the only codes? Are they both on the same line, or is the V4 underneath the I6?
> 
> I6 is the base code for an ECC83 tube type. I've never seen a letter following that code. If the V is a factory code, it was made by BEL in India, which doesn't seem likely, either.
> 
> Post a pic if you can.



Yeah I6 is above V4.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a real oddball. It looks like a Bel, the print looks like Brimar, and you say it's a Mullard? Does it say "Made in Great Britain" anywhere on it? I don't know if we'll ever figure that one out.


----------



## Procter2812

RiverRatt said:


> That's a real oddball. It looks like a Bel, the print looks like Brimar, and you say it's a Mullard? Does it say "Made in Great Britain" anywhere on it? I don't know if we'll ever figure that one out.



Well i just guessed it was made on Mullard equipment because of the seams and the plates. It doesnt flash either so i dont think it is a mullard. 

Could be a teaser..


----------



## MartyStrat54

How about if we just say it is a Philips made tube and leave it at that?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Marty what do you have in stock that you would recommend?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How about if we just say it is a Philips made tube and leave it at that?



Now where's the fun in that?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Marty what do you have in stock that you would recommend?



What are you looking to accomplish? Which amp? Full set or partial? Send me a PM.


----------



## MM54

Hey, what would you guys suggest for a JCM 900 4500? I know with the diodes there isn't a TON to be done with a change of tubes, but I was wondering if there may be something out there that would sound better than what I have (not complaining, it's awesome as is, but there is always that last 2% to hunt down).

My preamp tubes are currently all Electro-Harmonix (12AX7EH), I have no idea how old they are. They have what look like test results written on them, if you'd like those numbers, I have them written down somewhere.

I'm asking because sometime soon I may have a little money that I wouldn't mind putting into tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Over 3,900 posts?! Holy crap, you guys have been busy! Any hoo... I finally managed to find my way back over here... Looks like there may be a wee bit too much back reading to actually get caught up, so I guess I'll just have to do the best I can.

At any rate...

Marty... I am still totally lovin' the tubes you set me up with way back when for my TSL. Major diggin' even now, and sinse I know your still the man around town when it comes to finding some real bottle rockets you can bet you'll hear from me again! 

So... Until next time, ya'll take care now, ya hear!




... And it's great to see that River Ratt & Solar are still kickin out the jams too. Rock on you guys!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hi. Nice to meet you Josh. Marty told me about you. I do hope that you will be back soon. Marty would really like that.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Marty already warned you about me? Uh oh...


----------



## BluesRocker

MM54 said:


> Hey, what would you guys suggest for a JCM 900 4500? I know with the diodes there isn't a TON to be done with a change of tubes, but I was wondering if there may be something out there that would sound better than what I have (not complaining, it's awesome as is, but there is always that last 2% to hunt down).
> 
> My preamp tubes are currently all Electro-Harmonix (12AX7EH), I have no idea how old they are. They have what look like test results written on them, if you'd like those numbers, I have them written down somewhere.
> 
> I'm asking because sometime soon I may have a little money that I wouldn't mind putting into tubes.



Hey. I too have a 4500. And from what I can tell the biggest and most effected preamp tube for the 900 is the v1. Now do to the diodes in this you may or may not notice a change in tone. I would suggest a tung-sol or a mullard RI high gain. The v2 and v3 really won't change the tone at all for the 900. But that's my 2 cents though. Hope I helped.


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> Over 3,900 posts?! Holy crap, you guys have been busy! Any hoo... I finally managed to find my way back over here... Looks like there may be a wee bit too much back reading to actually get caught up, so I guess I'll just have to do the best I can.
> 
> At any rate...
> 
> Marty... I am still totally lovin' the tubes you set me up with way back when for my TSL. Major diggin' even now, and sinse I know your still the man around town when it comes to finding some real bottle rockets you can bet you'll hear from me again!
> 
> So... Until next time, ya'll take care now, ya hear!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... And it's great to see that River Ratt & Solar are still kickin out the jams too. Rock on you guys!



Welcome back Josh.....you rock for starting this whole mess!!! 

PS.....Futurama ROCKS!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Josh, what in the world??? Welcome back. Welcome home. Yes we have a solid crew here now and the thread is booming. We also have a power tube thread that is hanging in there.

Anyway, you don't need to get caught up. You are the founding father, you don't need to get caught up. It's just tubes and tube talk.


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh-man! Welcome! Don't worry about getting caught up, just jump in and hang on. Good to have you back, man! Is this going to be a regular thing?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Wow Josh is in the house.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Welcome back Josh.....you rock for starting this whole mess!!!
> 
> PS.....Futurama ROCKS!!!!



Awe... Shucks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Josh, you still with us? Stay and talk a bit if you can. If not, when you read this I just want you to know that you are always welcomed back here.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh-man! Welcome! Don't worry about getting caught up, just jump in and hang on. Good to have you back, man! Is this going to be a regular thing?



Well... I'd really hate for anyone to think I'm irregular...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Wow Josh is in the house.



Hmm... The way ya'll act... It's almost like ya haven't seen me in ages... Or in your case, ever even met me...


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> Awe... Shucks.



_Well, that mystery is solved.....this calls for a celebration!_





Stay for a while, eh?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Josh, you still with us? Stay and talk a bit if you can. If not, when you read this I just want you to know that you are always welcomed back here.



Hey Marty!!! Great to talk w/ ya again! It's been way too long mate. Sadly... while I'd love to stay and chat, it's 11:00 hear, which means in 5 hours I need to goin' to work. So... Sorry bro, I gotta hit the hay. But, that being said... No worries mate, I'm gonna try and get my sorry hide back here a _whole lot more often_ nowadays. 

... As embarrassing as it is to admit... I kinda miss ya'll! G'night my friend! ...
...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Wow Josh is in the house.



Look out, she's a bourbon and scotch drinker, but we don't hold it against her.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah and you are a hippie still living your life like a hippie.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> _Well, that mystery is solved.....this calls for a celebration!_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stay for a while, eh?





> _See me 'n the boys mean business, bustin' out dead or alive._..



I LOVE Thin Lizzy! Rock on mate!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Look out, she's a bourbon and scotch drinker, but we don't hold it against her.



Sounds good to me! Hey, I'll even take it a step further. To quote Mr. George Thorogood... "One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer."


----------



## thrawn86

Then you won't see you're baby since the night before last.


----------



## solarburn

Welcome back bruther! I got here late but you were taken care of I see. Hope to see you here again more often. Happy Toob'n!


----------



## thrawn86

Josh has returned!!!




_*....and there was great rejoicing. (yay!)*_


----------



## solarburn

Lol!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Welcome back bruther! I got here late but you were taken care of I see. Hope to see you here again more often. Happy Toob'n!



I went looking for you, but you weren't signed on. Anyway, Josh says he will be back. It was great to hear from him. +100!


----------



## core

BluesRocker said:


> Hey. I too have a 4500. And from what I can tell the biggest and most effected preamp tube for the 900 is the v1. Now do to the diodes in this you may or may not notice a change in tone. I would suggest a tung-sol or a mullard RI high gain. The v2 and v3 really won't change the tone at all for the 900. But that's my 2 cents though. Hope I helped.



I have not tried a Mullard RI yet but since I had a couple RCA 7025's lying around from my 6100 that I sold I popped those in and between that and a Tele the RCA had the most overall effect and helped the dynamics on my 4100 quite a bit. Guess I should try a Mullard maybe someday.

But yeah V2 and V3 don't the tone any but it's nice to have a high gain tube in V3 for the PI.

Welcome back Josh! Haven't met you yet but I read the first 30 pages before I dove in tube diving LOL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Didn't mean to ignore the questions on the 900's. We all got a little side-tracked.

Yes it's true. There is not a lot that can be done with the 900 (not including the SLX). The best tube that I have used so far is a slightly hot Raytheon Black Plate. This smooths out the diode signal somewhat and adds a little bite to the amp. The BP also fattens out the bottom end and overall is a smooth sounding tube.


----------



## AxlOz

i'm going to pick up some NOS tubes for my SLX today 

As per marty's recomendations I'm grabbing a russian mil spec 12AT7 for v2 (as close as I could get to a 5751 locally), and a NOS 12ax7 for v1. My amp tech has several NOS 12ax7's so i'll have a look through before i pick one, or maybe i'll get 2 just in case...

Will post here with my thoughts on the tone changes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

AxlOz said:


> i'm going to pick up some NOS tubes for my SLX today
> 
> As per marty's recomendations I'm grabbing a russian mil spec 12AT7 for v2 (as close as I could get to a 5751 locally), and a NOS 12ax7 for v1. My amp tech has several NOS 12ax7's so i'll have a look through before i pick one, or maybe i'll get 2 just in case...
> 
> Will post here with my thoughts on the tone changes!



Keep us informed on how it turns out and if you achieved the changes you were looking for. The 12AT7 may prove to be too much of a reduction and although it is in V2, the 12AT7 doesn't have the musicality as the 5751. However, it may work out if you get a nice V1.


----------



## Hamohapic

Hey guys  

New guy here, thrawn send me here. I have DSL 50 and yesturday got a set of JJ34L and two JJ83s pre amp tubes. Can you guys tell me what other two pre amp tubes would be good with the JJ i got?

Thanks


----------



## solarburn

Hamohapic said:


> Hey guys
> 
> New guy here, thrawn send me here. I have DSL 50 and yesturday got a set of JJ34L and two JJ83s pre amp tubes. Can you guys tell me what other two pre amp tubes would be good with the JJ i got?
> 
> Thanks



Welcome! Were you on HC last night talking about what preamp tube is what and how to take the shield off V1? If so you are in for a treat here. Look out cause you are going to get some good info and suggestions.

By the way I was on that thread on HC if that was you.

Where are you placing the 2 JJ Ecc83S's?


----------



## Hamohapic

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Welcome! Were you on HC last night talking about what preamp tube is what and how to take the shield off V1? If so you are in for a treat here. Look out cause you are going to get some good info and suggestions.
> 
> By the way I was on that thread on HC if that was you.
> 
> Where are you placing the 2 JJ Ecc83S's?



Yes that was me, thank you for your help. 

The two JJ83S i have placed in V2 and V3, i did not know any better, the V1 has the metal shield around it and the others did not so i thought that was some other tube that did not need to be touched, but i know better now.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> How about if we just say it is a Philips made tube and leave it at that?



this is the pre-amp tube thread, we have to find out, it is our mission!


----------



## solarburn

Hamohapic said:


> Yes that was me, thank you for your help.
> 
> The two JJ83S i have placed in V2 and V3, i did not know any better, the V1 has the metal shield around it and the others did not so i thought that was some other tube that did not need to be touched, but i know better now.



So you need a V1 and V4/PI...

How about a Tung Sol in V1 and V2 and the JJ's in V3 and the PI slot. Now I have my preferences and I'm not suggesting them cause they are NOS but what I did suggest are great current production(CP)tubes and I would use them myself. I have.

I don't like the ECC83S's but if you do any one of us respect that. You'll find alot of us vary in taste here even in the same amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hamohapic said:


> Hey guys
> 
> New guy here, thrawn send me here. I have DSL 50 and yesturday got a set of JJ34L and two JJ83s pre amp tubes. Can you guys tell me what other two pre amp tubes would be good with the JJ i got?
> 
> Thanks



I'm with Joe. The JJ's tend to darken the DSL. I would run them in V3 and V4.
Then I would get either two Tung-Sol's or a Tung-Sol and a Mullard RI.

Please note that to make the amp rock, you want your V2 to be a hand select high gain tube. This costs a few dollars more. Also, pay a little more to get hand select low noise on both tubes.

This should make a nice improvement on how the amp sounds.


----------



## Hamohapic

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm with Joe. The JJ's tend to darken the DSL. I would run them in V3 and V4.
> Then I would get either two Tung-Sol's or a Tung-Sol and a Mullard RI.
> 
> Please note that to make the amp rock, you want your V2 to be a hand select high gain tube. This costs a few dollars more. Also, pay a little more to get hand select low noise on both tubes.
> 
> This should make a nice improvement on how the amp sounds.



Cool, i will get the Tung Soil and the Mullard RI. I wanted to get the Mullard but Sam Ash didnt have them so it was a choice between JJ', Sovietek and Electro Harmonix and i picked up the JJ's. 

Where is a good place to buy these tubes online that are hand selected and high gain? 

Another question i have so it seems that pre amp tubes are the one that make the tune but what about the power tubes? They come in play at higher volume?

Thanks,
Hamo


----------



## Procter2812

Marty/Joe/Riverratt

Do you know if mullard/phillips made long/smooth plate ecc83/12ax7's??

Iv seen some which look a bit like tele's but have a shiny plate (long) with the seam and black top.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's an Ei. They are the only manufacturer that I know for sure made a tube with smooth, silver plates.

I got my mystery "Russian" smooth plate eBay tube this week. It's a strong '70s Ei. I was really hoping for a Siemens, but this is a decent tube. It even had "Yugoslavia" printed on the side of it and the seller still listed it as Russian?!?!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's an Ei. They are the only manufacturer that I know for sure made a tube with smooth, silver plates.
> 
> I got my mystery "Russian" smooth plate eBay tube this week. It's a strong '70s Ei. I was really hoping for a Siemens, but this is a decent tube. It even had "Yugoslavia" printed on the side of it and the seller still listed it as Russian?!?!



Hey we both got 70's stock EI's. I like mine too.


----------



## solarburn

RR...I've got your tube in V1 and one of the Gold pin Realistic(from greengirl)in V2. Then I have the Electrohome and the EI in the PI. Pretty nice combination!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hamohapic said:


> Cool, i will get the Tung Soil and the Mullard RI. I wanted to get the Mullard but Sam Ash didnt have them so it was a choice between JJ', Sovietek and Electro Harmonix and i picked up the JJ's.
> 
> Where is a good place to buy these tubes online that are hand selected and high gain?
> 
> Another question i have so it seems that pre amp tubes are the one that make the tune but what about the power tubes? They come in play at higher volume?
> 
> Thanks,
> Hamo



Either The Tube Store (Canada), or The Tube Depot (Memphis) have these tubes. Here are the links from The Tube Depot. Click the drop down box for tube options.

Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production

Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production

The DSL is a high gain amp. It works differently over an older model Marshall. The DSL gets all of its gain and distortion from the preamp tubes and preamp circuits. When you crank your amp, you are driving your gain stages into distortion. This signal then goes over to a "clean" power section and the power tubes amplify the distortion.

It is very difficult to get power tube distortion out of a high gain amp. Some will argue this point, but DSL's just weren't designed like a 2203.

Also for your info:
V1A and B-Primary Gain Stages
V2A and B-Secondary Gain Stages
V3A and B-Tone Stack and Cathode Follower (Preamp Circuits)
V4A and B-Phase Inverter (To Power Section)


----------



## Hamohapic

MartyStrat54 said:


> Either The Tube Store (Canada), or The Tube Depot (Memphis) have these tubes. Here are the links from The Tube Depot. Click the drop down box for tube options.
> 
> Mullard 12AX7 / ECC83 New Production
> 
> Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production
> 
> The DSL is a high gain amp. It works differently over an older model Marshall. The DSL gets all of its gain and distortion from the preamp tubes and preamp circuits. When you crank your amp, you are driving your gain stages into distortion. This signal then goes over to a "clean" power section and the power tubes amplify the distortion.
> 
> It is very difficult to get power tube distortion out of a high gain amp. Some will argue this point, but DSL's just weren't designed like a 2203.
> 
> Also for your info:
> V1A and B-Primary Gain Stages
> V2A and B-Secondary Gain Stages
> V3A and B-Tone Stack and Cathode Follower (Preamp Circuits)
> V4A and B-Phase Inverter (To Power Section)



Ahh i see i understand now.  

I am ready to submit my order on the tube depot.
So Tung Soil 12AX7 will be low noise and Mullard RI 12AX7 will be high gain option.

I was working on my amp last night and i switched from this set up 

V1 Marshall 12AX7
V2 JJ 83S
V3 JJ 83S
V4 Marshall 12AX7

To 


V1 JJ 83S
V2 JJ 83S
V3 Marshall 12AX7
V4 Marshall 12AX7

This definitely improved the tone, but i run into a problem with bias. I could not get the bias to go more the 35mA on eather side??? Maybe my multimeter is dieing but yah that was wired. Where as in that first configuration i was able to set it within the 40-45mA range.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> RR...I've got your tube in V1 and one of the Gold pin Realistic(from greengirl)in V2. Then I have the Electrohome and the EI in the PI. Pretty nice combination!


I picked up one of those Realistic tubes also for 12 bucks NOS also! took like 2 weeks to "BREAK IN " now it sounds pretty smooth.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just remember that all Realistic tubes are not necessarily Matsushitas.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Just remember that all Realistic tubes are not necessarily Matsushitas.



gold pin ones?


----------



## RiverRatt

Especially the gold pin "Realistic Lifetime" tubes. I've heard that Radio Shack still sold Realistic Lifetime tubes up into the '80s, and that these were re-labeled Chinese and Russian tubes. Earlier ones could be Toshiba or Hitachi. I'm not saying that those are bad tubes, but to my ears the Matsushitas color the tone in a way that sounds good in a Marshall, and the older the better. Here are the basic 3 different models:





Matsushita Slant "D" Getter. This is the oldest example and my personal favorite - probably made from the late '50s to the early '60s. This is also the one that Joe (Solar) is referring to as "my" tube. I don't see many of these turn up. The ones I have are labeled "Realistic" (not LIFETIME). Notice the longer (17mm) plates.





Matsushita Slant "O" Getter. These are good, too. They turn up as Realistic Lifetime (gold pin) and Marty has one that's labeled Raytheon Japan. They are fairly common and were made from the mid-'60s to 1970 or so.





Matsushita Halo Getter. I don't care much for these tone-wise. They turn up as Realistic Lifetime, United Electron, Amperex, etc. and were made in the '70s. IMO they lack the full, aggressive tone of the earlier tubes.


----------



## ken361

Mines more like the last one, same as green girls. guess there better then reproduction tubes. Its in the v3 so no biggie. Looks just like a Mullard. What about Curtis mathes long plate D getter?


----------



## RiverRatt

They aren't bad tubes, just a little flat for V1 in a guitar amp. I looked at greengirl's stuff - I think the single tube is probably a Matsushita but the pair look like Toshibas. It's hard to tell on the relabeled ones unless you can see the seams on the top.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Especially the gold pin "Realistic Lifetime" tubes. I've heard that Radio Shack still sold Realistic Lifetime tubes up into the '80s, and that these were re-labeled Chinese and Russian tubes. Earlier ones could be Toshiba or Hitachi. I'm not saying that those are bad tubes, but to my ears the Matsushitas color the tone in a way that sounds good in a Marshall, and the older the better. Here are the basic 3 different models:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matsushita Slant "D" Getter. This is the oldest example and my personal favorite - probably made from the late '50s to the early '60s. This is also the one that Joe (Solar) is referring to as "my" tube. I don't see many of these turn up. The ones I have are labeled "Realistic" (not LIFETIME). Notice the longer (17mm) plates.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matsushita Slant "O" Getter. These are good, too. They turn up as Realistic Lifetime (gold pin) and Marty has one that's labeled Raytheon Japan. They are fairly common and were made from the mid-'60s to 1970 or so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matsushita Halo Getter. I don't care much for these tone-wise. They turn up as Realistic Lifetime, United Electron, Amperex, etc. and were made in the '70s. IMO they lack the full, aggressive tone of the earlier tubes.



Mine are the middle maty's. I have 3 of them one being a gold pin. Alan's is the best sounding Matsushita I've heard. Would love to have more of it. Great in V1 of my DSL. My Tele's get'n lonely hehe. Nah it went in V1 of the Monza.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Didn't you buy like four or five Tele's? Or am I thinking of someone else?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Didn't you buy like four or five Tele's? Or am I thinking of someone else?



Yeah that was me. Those Teles aren't lonely though cause they're in a group together...


----------



## thrawn86

Ten to go......


----------



## LastRide

Thanks Marty, I took your recommendation for the SL-X a few pages back with a Tung-Sol in V1, 2 hand select high gain Mullard RI's in v2 & v3 and I slapped in a JJ ECC83 on V4. Whether I actually received high gan Mullard RI I don't know without a tube tester, but I specifically asked for them at the tube store. No markings on the box. I'm a high gain freak, the more dirt from hell the better..LOL. There is a point to where you don't want it to sound like mush with no definition. The pre-amp tubes add a nice smooth tone/growl. New Winged C's EL34's added a little more punch to the amp compared to the JJ E34L's. I was reading about the Mullard RI 12AX7's and that they are not really high gain tubes ?. I guess that would be the reason for selecting high gain Mullard RI's. They sound good and work well with the SL-X.

I have a Brunetti XL R-EVO II 120 watt. Would you know anything about these amps ?. The amp has a voice of its own. The sound is more on the darker side. Very thick sounding and a lot of gain. It has 4 JJ E34L's and 5 Chinese 12AX7's. I believe they are A's. Its hard to dial in a good treble tone for some reason. Hard to explain the sound. Maybe a little harsh and doesn't blend in well. The amp has a depth knob and does what it says from 1 to 8. From 8-10 has "Extra" written there. It adds a little more gain but also brightens up the amp. The newer version R-EVO's have this Extra setting. I was wondering what you might recommend for tubes. I don't want to neuter the gain. Don't know if you can find a schematic for it. I hear the dude is so tight he can't even fart when it comes to giving out info on his amps..LOL. I guess a lot of amp builders are like that.


----------



## eporter2980

I just got a marshall tsl 601 and the tubes are all old. I need to know what kind of tubes i should get for the preamp tubes. I play stuff like rock from the 70s and 80s


----------



## Procter2812

Just got my 'TEN' 12AX7.
Made in Japan
Tested at 2.2mv and 2.1mv at 2ma on an Avo tester.

Sounds great in the 800...


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

the Raytheon v2 and the GE v3 are now in and what an improvement
of course i installed these after 2 green channel mods and as soon as i'm done with the red i'll finish with v1 and v4 per Marty's suggestion and maybe even swap in a pair of nos EL34's in it...but i must have one of the best sounding green channels around


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Josh has returned!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*....and there was great rejoicing. (yay!)*_



... I'm not dead yet!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs"]YouTube - Monty Python-Bring out your dead![/ame]

My current preamp line up:

V1 - RCA 7025 (24/26)
V2 - EICO ECC83 (30/30)(Made In Holland)
V3 - Blackplate 12AX7 (126/130) (Made In The USA)
V4 - Blackplate 12AX7 (122/115) (Made In The USA)

I know I'm gonna get restless and start rolling again at some point, but these have been in my TSL for months now and for me... This IS my tone.

Power Tubes... Still running the JJ EL34L's. Don't have much $$$ to try rolling with anything other than what's in my current stable...

Tubes pictures from music photos on webshots


----------



## joshuaaewallen

eporter2980 said:


> I just got a marshall tsl 601 and the tubes are all old. I need to know what kind of tubes i should get for the preamp tubes. I play stuff like rock from the 70s and 80s



I'm not caught up enough to know what my guru Marty is using these days in his TSL's, But for 70's & 70's rock, I'm diggin' the line up listed in my last post...



joshuaaewallen said:


> V1 - RCA 7025 (24/26)
> V2 - EICO ECC83 (30/30)(Made In Holland)
> V3 - Blackplate 12AX7 (126/130)
> V4 - Blackplate 12AX7 (122/115)



This get's me pretty much everywhere I need to be from clean, to classic rock, to hair-band covers...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I am a wee bit out of touch, and am too lazy to read the last 2000 posts tonight... Other than being inferior to NOS, has anyone out there had much luck w/ the newer more easily obtainable tubes?

... Not that I'm planning on trying any until it becomes absolutely necessary.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Oh... What the heck... Just three more posts for the sake of being annoying...

*3...*​


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Oh... What the heck... Just two more posts for the sake of being annoying...

*2...*​


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Oh... What the heck... Just one more post for the sake of being annoying...

*1...*​


----------



## MM54

Woo 4,000 posts!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Woo 4,000 posts!



​


----------



## thrawn86

Good work 'yall!


----------



## solarburn

Hey we should roll a tube and lite it up!?


----------



## LastRide

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey we should roll a tube and lite it up!?




It would make your ass cave in.


----------



## solarburn

LastRide said:


> It would make your ass cave in.



:eek2:


----------



## rykus

i have a mullard ri long plate in v1, a sovteck lp special in v2 , and a eh gold pin sp in v3 on my jam amp, with ri mullard el34's as power tubes.... sounds good but its a bit harder to hear the little subtulties over our drummer.... i save the good tubes for my practice time till i figure out the combo i want. man am i hating life not being able to play guitar, the skin on my fingers starting to join back together but theres still a nasty string catching crack in the midle of it, and i got my xf 2 power tubes in. still waiting on the rayeothons but i can't play yet anyways. man is it easy to spend time and money on ebay when you can't play the guitar, this injury's getting expensive... days of, un passable deals on tubes.... i'll let you guys know when i get to roll my next tubes ,their waiting.... anyways just killing time thought id stop by. cheers


----------



## DeLorean

Just a quickie - I'm going to be re-tubing my DSL401 (from the stock Marshall tubes) shortly and was wondering - is it better to have identical tubes in V3 and V4 or doesn't it really matter?

Cheers!


----------



## Procter2812

DeLorean said:


> Just a quickie - I'm going to be re-tubing my DSL401 (from the stock Marshall tubes) shortly and was wondering - is it better to have identical tubes in V3 and V4 or doesn't it really matter?
> 
> Cheers!



Doesnt matter at all.

Just make sure you stick a good valve in the cathode follower (V3)
JJ's have good cathode insulation and are good for the V3 position.


----------



## ken361

You guys like 12at7's in the PI? I thought i would try one in there. They seem to open the amp up more, pretty nice. I need to experiment more at loud volumes. Its a groove tube since i was in the area saturday I figure I would pick one up. I noticed the tube is a long plate like a Sovtek lps, most at7's I seen on the net are short plates and look a lot different. Also tried it in the v3 and made the amp louder hmmm. Thoughts?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey we should roll a tube and lite it up!?



I'd rather lite it up, then roll tubes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

See what happens when you go out of town for a few days? I had to attend a "worlds largest" event in Tulsa and was gone Friday through Sunday. So everyone thought MM54 was 4000, but it was actually Josh. Is that right? According to the tally number, it was Josh. Well welcome back to a big 4000. I'm sorry I missed it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'd rather lite it up, then roll tubes!



I'm so desperate, I'm smoking rat turds. No offense, Ratt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> You guys like 12at7's in the PI? I thought i would try one in there. They seem to open the amp up more, pretty nice. I need to experiment more at loud volumes. Its a groove tube since i was in the area saturday I figure I would pick one up. I noticed the tube is a long plate like a Sovtek lps, most at7's I seen on the net are short plates and look a lot different. Also tried it in the v3 and made the amp louder hmmm. Thoughts?



Every 12AT7 I ever used "choked" that slot. A 12AT7 in the PI is not going to open it up, it's going to subdue it.

Also, a 12AT7 in V3 making the amp louder? The amp has it's maximum power regardless of whether a 12AT7 or a 12AX7 is in the amp in V3. A preamp tube can be "hotter," but it doesn't make the power section create more power. Tube amps are difficult to measure their power output. You can safely run a tube amp at 10 percent THD. A solid state amp would sound like crap at 10 percent THD. The power does jump and some of the techs here claim a 100 watt Marshall fully dimed can put out like 180 watts. However, I wouldn't recommend pushing the amp like that. As stated in a previous post, modern Marshall amps are designed as high gain/clean power section amps. All of the distortion is created by over driven preamp tubes. This signal is amplified by "clean" tube power. Trying to obtain "power tube distortion" is like shooting yourself in the foot.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Every 12AT7 I ever used "choked" that slot. A 12AT7 in the PI is not going to open it up, it's going to subdue it.
> 
> Also, a 12AT7 in V3 making the amp louder? The amp has it's maximum power regardless of whether a 12AT7 or a 12AX7 is in the amp in V3. A preamp tube can be "hotter," but it doesn't make the power section create more power. Tube amps are difficult to measure their power output. You can safely run a tube amp at 10 percent THD. A solid state amp would sound like crap at 10 percent THD. The power does jump and some of the techs here claim a 100 watt Marshall fully dimed can put out like 180 watts. However, I wouldn't recommend pushing the amp like that. As stated in a previous post, modern Marshall amps are designed as high gain/clean power section amps. All of the distortion is created by over driven preamp tubes. This signal is amplified by "clean" tube power. Trying to obtain "power tube distortion" is like shooting yourself in the foot.



I would say it sounded cleaner prob. because of the lower gain but im not sure if Im going to keep it in there. Any suggestion for that slot?


----------



## bones

MartyStrat54 said:


> What if you put the RCA-BP in V1 and the Raytheon-BP in V2, the GE GP in V3 and the Tug-Sol RI in V4?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I finally got around to swapping the tubes in my TSL601 with nice results. Also managed to pick up a few more vintage tubes along the way (More RCA BP and a couple of Mullards). Would it make sense to change out the Raytheon BP with either of these?
> 
> Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm so desperate, I'm smoking rat turds. No offense, Ratt.








"You mean we're smoking rat shit, man?"

"It gets you high..."


----------



## MartyStrat54

bones said:


> MartyStrat54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What if you put the RCA-BP in V1 and the Raytheon-BP in V2, the GE GP in V3 and the Tug-Sol RI in V4?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I finally got around to swapping the tubes in my TSL601 with nice results. Also managed to pick up a few more vintage tubes along the way (More RCA BP and a couple of Mullards). Would it make sense to change out the Raytheon BP with either of these?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the Raytheon is a high gain tube, I would go with it in V2 and use one of the Mullards in V1. Then if you have two RCA's left, use them for V3 and V4.
Click to expand...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> "You mean we're smoking rat shit, man?"
> 
> "It gets you high..."



Man...those were the days. I was a total mess and loved every minute of it.



I could go a month with what Tommy Chong has in his hand.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man...those were the days. I was a total mess and loved every minute of it.
> 
> 
> 
> I could go a month with what Tommy Chong has in his hand.



... Hmm... Wouldn't know. I'm too young to have been a hippie , and had absolutely nothing in common w/ the pot heads in school :cool2:, so... Other than a distinct fondness for a first rate beer ... This Rockstar Imposter is as clean as they come!


----------



## RiverRatt

Nothing wrong with that. If I'd kept my nose clean back in those days, I probably would have a few less scars and a lot more money.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Good call Rat Man! 

... 'cept I'm still broke.


----------



## ken361

any update on some good PI tubes?


----------



## Stymie13

I've tried many 12AX7s and one 12AT7 in my DSL. I kinda dug the AT7, but it definitely mellowed the gain out. I think my favorite I have ever heard in the PI was an RCA gray plate I got from Marty for V1/V2. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to keep it at the time. You should check with him, but I think he prefers a NOS Sylvania gray plate. I see them on ebay and many other online tube retailers for very reasonable prices.


----------



## ken361

Stymie13 said:


> I've tried many 12AX7s and one 12AT7 in my DSL. I kinda dug the AT7, but it definitely mellowed the gain out. I think my favorite I have ever heard in the PI was an RCA gray plate I got from Marty for V1/V2. Unfortunately, I couldn't afford to keep it at the time. You should check with him, but I think he prefers a NOS Sylvania gray plate. I see them on ebay and many other online tube retailers for very reasonable prices.



I had a extra sylvania I was sitting on, its probably the best yet.


----------



## RiverRatt

For a phase inverter, I like to use a good-sounding, high gain 12AX7. I don't know that it affects the tone so much as it opens up the amp and lets the V1 and V2 tubes sound their best. I've got a couple of Raytheon JRPs that are good sounding tubes but they have so much gain in V1 and V2 that a clean tone is pretty much impossible. I'm running one in the DSL and the other in the Fender. I can hear a difference between them and a weaker 12AX7. The amp seems more dynamic and responsive, and the tone is fuller and thicker. 

I went through a phase (pardon the pun) where I used 12AT7s as phase inverters, mainly trying to tame the amp a little bit for playing at home. They can be fun to play around with, but ultimately I decided that they make the tone sound too compressed and flat.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> For a phase inverter, I like to use a good-sounding, high gain 12AX7. I don't know that it affects the tone so much as it opens up the amp and lets the V1 and V2 tubes sound their best. I've got a couple of Raytheon JRPs that are good sounding tubes but they have so much gain in V1 and V2 that a clean tone is pretty much impossible. I'm running one in the DSL and the other in the Fender. I can hear a difference between them and a weaker 12AX7. The amp seems more dynamic and responsive, and the tone is fuller and thicker.
> 
> I went through a phase (pardon the pun) where I used 12AT7s as phase inverters, mainly trying to tame the amp a little bit for playing at home. They can be fun to play around with, but ultimately I decided that they make the tone sound too compressed and flat.



yeah just tried the at7 not too much of fan of that one, you just have to roll and find whats best. A crappy PI tube can effect A amp like a v1 so its good to have a solid tube there and most people dont realize it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty Marty Marty Marty Marty!!! Check it out - do you want to drive to Indianapolis?

shopgoodwill.com - #6085188 - Vintage Hammond Organ & Seat Model 101* - 4/21/2010 5:00:00 PM


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Marty Marty Marty Marty Marty!!! Check it out - do you want to drive to Indianapolis?
> 
> shopgoodwill.com - #6085188 - Vintage Hammond Organ & Seat Model 101* - 4/21/2010 5:00:00 PM



you can see those tubes, just go there and yank them out


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty Marty Marty Marty Marty!!! Check it out - do you want to drive to Indianapolis?
> 
> shopgoodwill.com - #6085188 - Vintage Hammond Organ & Seat Model 101* - 4/21/2010 5:00:00 PM



Well I looked at a schematic and this is an organ of a different design. It doesn't use that many tubes and some of them are 12AU7's. The power amp is two 6BQ5's, 12AX7 and 5U4 rectifier.

I just got back from doing a more extensive search and I do not see anything that tells me this model is laden with tubes. It was made during that period of transistor transition.


----------



## solarburn

Here's a tube thread for ya that clears up all your NOS fantasies...

Telefunken, Mullard, Amperex, Tungsram SUCK! - The Gear Page


----------



## RiverRatt

I read that, Joe. I showed amazing restraint!!

Marty, I dug up a couple of schematics, too. The amp would be cool, and there are another couple of 12AX7/ECC83s in the guts, but no, I don't think it has a bunch of tubes, either. My heart still skips a few beats when I see an old Hammond, though.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I read that, Joe. I showed amazing restraint!!
> 
> Marty, I dug up a couple of schematics, too. The amp would be cool, and there are another couple of 12AX7/ECC83s in the guts, but no, I don't think it has a bunch of tubes, either. My heart still skips a few beats when I see an old Hammond, though.




:Ohno:

I had to bail on it hehe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Speaking of tubes... I think it's time to have a cold brew and fire up the old Marshall Monster!

I've been enjoying everyone's posts. Rock on ya'll!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> ...
> 
> My current preamp line up:
> 
> V1 - RCA 7025 (24/26)
> V2 - EICO ECC83 (30/30)(Made In Holland)
> V3 - Blackplate 12AX7 (126/130) (Made In The USA)
> V4 - Blackplate 12AX7 (122/115) (Made In The USA)
> 
> I know I'm gonna get restless and start rolling again at some point, but these have been in my TSL for months now and for me... This IS my tone.
> 
> Power Tubes... Still running the JJ EL34L's. Don't have much $$$ to try rolling with anything other than what's in my current stable... For now.
> 
> Tubes pictures from music photos on webshots



Hey Marty,

How's my tube guru doin' these day's?

I was thinkin', since my man Martimus Maximus has never steered me wrong when it comes to tubes... What say we take another crack at it, eh?

You know what's in my current line up, and the picture below show's what's in stock in addition to what's in the amp now (the black boxed 12AX7's are just EH's)... 

Whaddaya think is a good direction to go next? Just for kicks & giggles, & old times sake.
_________________

Just a non-tube related question as well, & ya'll feel free to chime in on this too... Have you ever used the "Emulated Line out" on any of your TSL's? I am curious if it , for one, sounds half way decent, and secondly what it would take to get that into a PC w/out any significant investment (ideally just right into the 1/8" stereo jack on my sound card)? I know it's gonna be entirely preamp, but have no clue what the ins & outs of the Emulated Line Output really are...

Anyhoo... Ya'll have a good day!



​


----------



## RiverRatt

What kind of soundcard? Most have a line-in. All you really need is a 1/4" male to 1/8" male adapter or cable from the amp to the line-in. I have a SoundBlaster Audigy II card and it works fine. With the same cable or adapter, you can plug your guitar directly into the mic input on your card and there are a handful of virtual amps you can download to use with it. There are also several USB audio interfaces ranging from just a cable that lets you plug in your guitar to tube-driven mic preamps and stuff that will turn your computer into a studio.


----------



## ken361

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> How's my tube guru doin' these day's?
> 
> I was thinkin', since my man Martimus Maximus has never steered me wrong when it comes to tubes... What say we take another crack at it, eh?
> 
> You know what's in my current line up, and the picture below show's what's in stock in addition to what in the amp now (the black boxed 12AX7's are just EH's)...
> 
> Whaddaya think is a good direction to go next? Just for kicks & giggles, & old times sake.
> _________________
> 
> Just a non-tube related question as well, & ya'll feel free to chime in on this too... Have you ever used the "Emulated Line out" on any of your TSL's? I am curious if it , for one, sounds half way decent, and secondly what it would take to get that into a PC w/out any significant investment (ideally just right into the 1/8" stereo jack on my sound card)? I know it's gonna be entirely preamp, but have no clue what the ins & outs of the Emulated Line Output really are...
> 
> Anyhoo... Ya'll have a good day!
> 
> http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/19947/2058632090053725611S600x600Q85.jpg
> 
> ​



I run the line out on my JVM it sounds pretty good. I use Audacity to record my tunes


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> What kind of soundcard? Most have a line-in. All you really need is a 1/4" male to 1/8" male adapter or cable from the amp to the line-in. I have a SoundBlaster Audigy II card and it works fine. With the same cable or adapter, you can plug your guitar directly into the mic input on your card and there are a handful of virtual amps you can download to use with it. There are also several USB audio interfaces ranging from just a cable that lets you plug in your guitar to tube-driven mic preamps and stuff that will turn your computer into a studio.



Yeah, I'm running a sound blaster too, however the line out on the amp is not a 1/4" jack. It's an XLR jack... Not sure what's available to get me connected. Plus I am looking to keep this cheap.



ken361 said:


> I run the line out on my JVM it sounds pretty good. I use Audacity to record my tunes



I'd kinda like to play around w/ it and see what kinda sounds I can get recorded. Does the JVM have the XLR on the back, or is it a 1/4" like RiverRatt described? Plus I already have Audacity and use it all the time for editing and recording old records & cassettes, so at least I'm familiar with it one part of the equation...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Then you won't see you're baby since the night before last.



Gonna be a lot longer than that bro!


----------



## ken361

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yeah, I'm running a sound blaster too, however the line out on the amp is not a 1/4" jack. It's an XLR jack... Not sure what's available to get me connected. Plus I am looking to keep this cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd kinda like to play around w/ it and see what kinda sounds I can get recorded. Does the JVM have the XLR on the back, or is it a 1/4" like RiverRatt described? Plus I already have Audacity and use it all the time for editing and recording old records & cassettes, so at least I'm familiar with it one part of the equation...


XLR mic jack


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ken361 said:


> XLR mic jack



where'd ya find an adapter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> where'd ya find an adapter?



Most electronic retailers have them. I would get with Parts Express. They sell either a plug adapter, or a corded adapter. I've found the corded one to be more usable. 

Tube Talk-What brand are the Black Plates? Raytheon or RCA? You got a real solid V2. If you did a little reading, the cat's meow is a Telefunken or other exotic Philips tube in V1 with a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Now if you have Raytheon's, you could put the stronger one in V2 with a new V1. You could put the 7025 or the other Black Plate in V3 and the stout Amperex could be moved to V4. We have found that a high gain works well in V4.

Let me know what brand of Black Plates you have.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello. I stopped by to say hello. I got busy and haven't had much time to get on board. Glad to see you are sticking around Josh. Marty got my DSL sounding really good. I had all RCA's and I bought a pair of Telefunkens and a pair of Raytheon black plates and that gave me two complete sets. Sweet!


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, those boxes labeled Westinghouse (Germany) look promising. Any idea who made them? It would be sweet if they are Telefunkens or Valvos, but anything from Germany should be good.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Tube Talk-What brand are the Black Plates? Raytheon or RCA? You got a real solid V2. If you did a little reading, the cat's meow is a Telefunken or other exotic Philips tube in V1 with a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Now if you have Raytheon's, you could put the stronger one in V2 with a new V1. You could put the 7025 or the other Black Plate in V3 and the stout Amperex could be moved to V4. We have found that a high gain works well in V4.
> 
> Let me know what brand of Black Plates you have.



Hey Marty! How ya doin' man?! How come whenever I'm on your nowhere to be seen, and vice versa? I miss ya bud!

ok... Enough mushy stuff... The black plates are Raytheon's. I got them from a guy I know who lives somewhere around Kansas City? You should meet him. Real good guy. Plus he sells quality tubes and is trustworthy! 

It's _way, way, way, _past my bedtime... I'm not normally up at 1:22 in the morning, so I am clearly not in my normal mindset... So what Amperex are you refering to? Yeah... Lack of sleep and couple of beers can make a guy real dumb, real fast?

Telefunkens... If that's the cat's meow these days, and I'm too lazy to do my homework (tonight anyway)... What's the scoop on those. Why the "cats meow", and how much $$$ are they goin' for?



Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello. I stopped by to say hello. I got busy and haven't had much time to get on board. Glad to see you are sticking around Josh. Marty got my DSL sounding really good. I had all RCA's and I bought a pair of Telefunkens and a pair of Raytheon black plates and that gave me two complete sets. Sweet!



Well hey there! How ya been? Did you think you were rid of me that easily? 

... Yeah... As much as I hate to say anything nice about anyone... Marty's a pretty decent guy.  I just know if anyone can hook ya up with the good stuff, he's the man. Shoot... He's even nice ta boot!

What are the Telefunkens doin' for your rig? Pretty awesome? As far as the Raytheon black plates... I am currently running them in V3 & V4 of my TSL. Like I said, I am majorly lovin' my tone w/ this set up, but I fugure, hey, I've got extra time on my hands these days, why not play around a bit, right?

So your into Teles & Strats... What else ya got cookin' in your rig? What kinda tunes?



RiverRatt said:


> Josh, those boxes labeled Westinghouse (Germany) look promising. Any idea who made them? It would be sweet if they are Telefunkens or Valvos, but anything from Germany should be good.



Hey RiverRatt... This is what the Westinghouse tubes are:





These were actually in the amp when I bought it. One of these days I'm gonna hijack Marty and get him to test all of these for me so I know how strong all of these actually are.

Anyhoo... It's past 1:30 AM now, and I might just turn into a pumpkin if I don't get some sleep, so... In case I don't see ya... Good afternoon, good evening, and good night! 

Ciao!​


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> In case I don't see ya... Good afternoon, good evening, and good night!



Hey Truman......Suprise party buddy!


----------



## Procter2812

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty! How ya doin' man?! How come whenever I'm on your nowhere to be seen, and vice versa? I miss ya bud!
> 
> ok... Enough mushy stuff... The black plates are Raytheon's. I got them from a guy I know who lives somewhere around Kansas City? You should meet him. Real good guy. Plus he sells quality tubes and is trustworthy!
> 
> It's _way, way, way, _past my bedtime... I'm not normally up at 1:22 in the morning, so I am clearly not in my normal mindset... So what Amperex are you refering to? Yeah... Lack of sleep and couple of beers can make a guy real dumb, real fast?
> 
> Telefunkens... If that's the cat's meow these days, and I'm too lazy to do my homework (tonight anyway)... What's the scoop on those. Why the "cats meow", and how much $$$ are they goin' for?
> 
> 
> 
> Well hey there! How ya been? Did you think you were rid of me that easily?
> 
> ... Yeah... As much as I hate to say anything nice about anyone... Marty's a pretty decent guy.  I just know if anyone can hook ya up with the good stuff, he's the man. Shoot... He's even nice ta boot!
> 
> What are the Telefunkens doin' for your rig? Pretty awesome? As far as the Raytheon black plates... I am currently running them in V3 & V4 of my TSL. Like I said, I am majorly lovin' my tone w/ this set up, but I fugure, hey, I've got extra time on my hands these days, why not play around a bit, right?
> 
> So your into Teles & Strats... What else ya got cookin' in your rig? What kinda tunes?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey RiverRatt... This is what the Westinghouse tubes are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These were actually in the amp when I bought it. One of these days I'm gonna hijack Marty and get him to test all of these for me so I know how strong all of these actually are.
> 
> Anyhoo... It's past 1:30 AM now, and I might just turn into a pumpkin if I don't get some sleep, so... In case I don't see ya... Good afternoon, good evening, and good night!
> 
> Ciao!​



Hey josh! those westinghouse tubes are chinese made. they sound alright, bit muddy for me...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh-I'm sorry I missed you. I'm usually on several times a day, but I have been busy this past week.

You know, how's this for a concept? If it ain't broke don't fix it. If you are loving your tube tone then there is no need to change it. Blame Joe for the "Telefunken Fever." He bought a bunch off of me. Me? I still waffle between a Tele and an Amperex. I also bought for my personal stash some Lorenz and Mini Watt 12AX7's. Some of the new members have bought some fantastic tubes. Some of the pictures gave me wood.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That is true mate. I am soooo diggin' my tone these days, but... It's always good to have a "plan b" because... Ta da!!! Crap happens. So... honestly... Whadaya think? Is it worth it?

..................................... By the way... even though I will likely hit the hay any moment... It rocks to be able to connect w/ you again mate!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

PS... I know about busy. No worries Mate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh...you still reside at Avenue N? If not, PM me your current address.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

5907 Idaho Ave N.... You betcha! That is until either the shotsale goes through... Or the foreclosure... Anyhoo... what's up mate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm sorry about that other stuff, but I just wanted to know if my contact info on you was correct.


----------



## solarburn

Josh have you tried the Telefunken V1 and Raytheon BP V2 combo yet?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Nope. But from what I'm hearing... Those may have some potential... Whaddaya think such critters are worth to a guy like me?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

By the way... Ya never said how you've been doin' these days?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Nope. But from what I'm hearing... Those may have some potential... Whaddaya think such critters are worth to a guy like me?



Well if you got an itch I highly recommend although we do have different amps. You might want to try them out...

Been hav'n a great time here on the forum. Got some good buddies here. You know how it is out there and the state of affairs we're in...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I hear ya mate. Sometimes life can really suck. But... We keep on goin' anyway...
ratcr
But... Yeah... That itch seems to be needing some scratching... What'll we do about that mate?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I hear ya mate. Sometimes life can really suck. But... We keep on goin' anyway...
> ratcr
> But... Yeah... That itch seems to be needing some scratching... What'll we do about that mate?



Scratch it! Since you have a great group(tubes)already you can try 1 or 2 tubes here and there with out having to spend a bunch of moolah!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. You definitely need a Telefunken in your line-up. Joe likes them ribbed for pleasure, but I like the smooth plates better. If I had more than one smoothie right now I'd send it to you to try out, but my stash is low. 

I've really gotten some bad deals lately buying stuff off eBay. There seem to be more bad buyers and sellers in the tube market nowadays. I'm paying more money for tubes that just aren't what they claim to be. I'll not buy another tube from a seller that doesn't have a reasonable return policy. Buy them from someone you know and trust and save yourself a lot of headaches.


----------



## ken361

I wont buy anything again with a no return policy


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I took a chance with a seller here recently and got burned. No return policy. His listing was such that I was interested. He had a matched quad of Philips tubes (Ratt-not the same listing as you posted). He did not indicate any info about the country of origin, so I assumed they were USA made (old Sylvania plant). When I got them, I was able to tell they were Russian made tubes. Someone wiped the, "Made in Russia" off all of the tubes. They test strong and are a matched quad, but they ain't USA made. I had a few choice words for the seller. I could tell after having communicated with him that he knew what he was pulling. Lucky for me, I got them for less than $100.


----------



## solarburn

Pretty sure Josh will go through Marty for any tubes. Why find another connection when the "one" is gold...


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> My current preamp line up:
> 
> V1 - RCA 7025 (24/26)
> V2 - EICO ECC83 (30/30)(Made In Holland)
> V3 - Blackplate 12AX7 (126/130) (Made In The USA)
> V4 - Blackplate 12AX7 (122/115) (Made In The USA)
> 
> I know I'm gonna get restless and start rolling again at some point, but these have been in my TSL for months now and for me... This IS my tone.



The EICO "is" the AMPEREX. If you were to swap out the 7025 for a Telefunken, you would move the Raytheon BP (126/130) over to V2 and put the RCA into V3. Then you could roll the EICO in V4 and see how you like that.



> OK... Enough mushy stuff... The black plates are Raytheon's. I got them from a guy I know who lives somewhere around Kansas City? You should meet him. Real good guy. Plus he sells quality tubes and is trustworthy!
> 
> It's way, way, way, past my bedtime... I'm not normally up at 1:22 in the morning, so I am clearly not in my normal mindset... So what Amperex are you referring to? Yeah... Lack of sleep and couple of beers can make a guy real dumb, real fast?



See up above. Yes, you have an Amperex ICBM. It can be used in many different ways. Rub your preamp tubes each night and say, "Hibba, Habba, Rube. Please bring tone unto my tubes." Try that for three days and see if the tone changes any.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I took a chance with a seller here recently and got burned. No return policy. His listing was such that I was interested. He had a matched quad of Philips tubes (Ratt-not the same listing as you posted). He did not indicate any info about the country of origin, so I assumed they were USA made (old Sylvania plant). When I got them, I was able to tell they were Russian made tubes. Someone wiped the, "Made in Russia" off all of the tubes. They test strong and are a matched quad, but they ain't USA made. I had a few choice words for the seller. I could tell after having communicated with him that he knew what he was pulling. Lucky for me, I got them for less than $100.



you could file a complaint on ebay and they will contact the seller, I did with that baldwin raytheon you tested. He later on agreed to a partial refund the money but since I really didnt trust him I told him to senf it to me first lol never heard back lol. He want me to remove the negative feed back. It was only 15.50 but thats not the case he said it tested strong! So when you told me it was weak I said screw it I will let ebay know.


----------



## Stymie13

What do the tube readings mean again? Is it the strength of each triode in a 12AX7? So, what would be considered high-gain? Currently I have tubes with readings:

V1 25/26 
V2 29/30


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Pretty sure Josh will go through Marty for any tubes. Why find another connection when the "one" is gold...



Once you've dealt with the best, why waste time on all the rest? 



MartyStrat54 said:


> The EICO "is" the AMPEREX. If you were to swap out the 7025 for a Telefunken, you would move the Raytheon BP (126/130) over to V2 and put the RCA into V3. Then you could roll the EICO in V4 and see how you like that...



Uh... Yeah... I, uh... I knew that... Umm... Yeah. AMPEREX = EICO. Yipper skipper...   

So what does a good Telefunken run a guy these days?



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Rub your preamp tubes each night...



Isn't that illegal in most states?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stymie13 said:


> What do the tube readings mean again? Is it the strength of each triode in a 12AX7? So, what would be considered high-gain? Currently I have tubes with readings:
> 
> V1 25/26
> V2 29/30



Yes, that's what it is. There were dozens of different testers made and they all used a different scale. Your tubes were measured on a B and K 707. Similar to this is a TV-7 (or other TV testers). Other tube testers like Hickok used a scale that used four digits. Minimum on some Hickok's (not all) for a 12AX7 was 1250.

The best testers are dynamic mutual transconductance testers, like the 707. In the case of this tester, 22 represents "a new, nominal" tube. A slight change in the amount equals a big change in the tube. If we go eight points up to 30, we have a high gain tube. Up higher yet to 35, the tube may be to strong for the gain stages. These tubes work great in V4.

So you have a great V1 and a high gain V2.


----------



## Stymie13

OK, thanks Marty. You probably explained it before but I couldn't remember.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Anyone fancy a spot of whats that valve?

I bought this as i couldn't quite see what the plates looked like from the auction picture, thought it may be an Ei but it truns out it isnt. It has no date codes on the glass, just some generic stuff about quality valves.
The plates have no holes in the center like a philips would, they have 2 crimps either side, and they look almost smooth, with just 2 ridges on them that are very slight. It has a halo getter, so im guessing a brimar of some kind, as the micas have a large hole on them like my other brimars. Maybe these are short plate brimars? The tabs look different to the briamrs i have so im a bit stuck as to who made this one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Once you've dealt with the best, why waste time on all the rest?
> 
> So what does a good Telefunken run a guy these days?



Thanks for your vote of confidence. Telefunkens are not cheap. They usually start at around $60 each on the other tubes sites. I try to sell them for $45.

However, since you have been gone a while, I will let you know that the winds of change are blowing in regard to NOS tubes. I used to be able to buy bulk Raytheon Black Plates. Now they are on EBAY costing as much as a Telefunken, Valvo, or Mini Watt. About four months ago, there was a spike in NOS tube prices. It's getting like gasoline. The prices go up and then they come down. It makes you wonder when you can buy.

I'm sorry that I missed you again. This time by not much. I hope we hook up soon. I wanted to find out how your pursuit of the Def Leppard tone went down.


----------



## core

Hi guys, been awhile since I've been round these parts. I'm getting a 77 JMP 2204 this week and was wondering about tube selection and what each position takes care of.

Still have the Raytheon BP's and GP's from when I had the 6100, also a couple Tele's and a couple RCA 7025's. I'll probably try them all out but would like your opinions though. From what I've read sounds like the Raytheon BP's might be the best choice but I've heard great things about vintage Mullards. I want to get a real aggressive tone out of this amp.

Also want to get my hands on a good set of RCA 6550's for the power section but we'll see what it comes with first.

What cha' all think?


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Anyone fancy a spot of whats that valve?



It looks very Toshiba to me.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> It looks very Toshiba to me.



Just hunted for said toshiba and they look exactly the same, spot on there my man


----------



## MartyStrat54

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just hunted for said toshiba and they look exactly the same, spot on there my man



Yeah, Alan has turned into an A1 tube hound. I was pulling some of my MIJ tubes out to compare and they look very similar to my Toshiba 12DM7's, except the DM7's have smooth plates. Everything else looks the same, including the top of the glass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Hi guys, been awhile since I've been round these parts. I'm getting a 77 JMP 2204 this week and was wondering about tube selection and what each position takes care of.
> 
> Still have the Raytheon BP's and GP's from when I had the 6100, also a couple Tele's and a couple RCA 7025's. I'll probably try them all out but would like your opinions though. From what I've read sounds like the Raytheon BP's might be the best choice but I've heard great things about vintage Mullards. I want to get a real aggressive tone out of this amp.
> 
> Also want to get my hands on a good set of RCA 6550's for the power section but we'll see what it comes with first.
> 
> What cha' all think?



Did you sell the 6100 and go to a single channel? Just curious. You can get spoiled playing those multi channel amps he-he. First off, RCA 6550's are major cash. Be prepared to knock a hole in your wallet buying them. This is a 50 watter, right? At least you only need two.

If you kept all of your good preamp tubes, I would start with a Telefunken in V1 and then roll all of your Raytheon's in V2 to see which one is the best. This is just a three tube preamp right? V3 is your PI, so stick a good tube in that slot. The boys here on the board all like a nice high gain for the PI. I believe your gain stages are V1A and B and V2A.

If you get bored, you can roll several dozen combinations and get sad knowing that there are a hundred more. How many pre tubes do you have? Seven or eight?

I'll keep my eye out for some 6550's as I'm sure Joe and Alan will too.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you sell the 6100 and go to a single channel? Just curious. You can get spoiled playing those multi channel amps he-he. First of, RCA 6550's are major cash. Be prepared to knock a hole in your wallet buying them. This is a 50 watter, right? At least you only need two.
> 
> If you kept all of your good preamp tubes, I would start with a Telefunken in V1 and then roll all of your Raytheon's in V2 to see which one is the best. This is just a three tube preamp right? V3 is your PI, so stick a good tube in that slot. The boys here on the board all like a nice high gain for the PI. I believe your gain stages are V1A and B and V2A.
> 
> If you get bored, you can roll several dozen combinations and get sad knowing that there are a hundred more. How many pre tubes do you have? Seven or eight?
> 
> I'll keep my eye out for some 6550's as I'm sure Joe and Alan will too.



Yeah after I switched the power tubes I was never happy with it. It seemed to develop other problems. Maybe it was a lemon. Plus I've realized I'm not a 6L6 kinda guy. Simplifying things a bit I guess and going old school. I really like the dynamics they produce! You know the thing with multi-channel and me is every time I switch them on I'm fiddling with the knobs because everyday seems to be different. But maybe it's just me LOL!

Yep it's a 50, I've recently seen NOS RCA 6550's going for between $80 and $150 on auction. But if anything I can easily mod it to accept EL34 and I still have a quad of RFT's I have not used yet.

I'll try that out, I have 8 old tubes to choose from but who knows maybe it has some nice old vintage tubes in it already. Can't wait to play it!

Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for your vote of confidence. Telefunkens are not cheap. They usually start at around $60 each on the other tubes sites. I try to sell them for $45.
> 
> However, since you have been gone a while, I will let you know that the winds of change are blowing in regard to NOS tubes. I used to be able to buy bulk Raytheon Black Plates. Now they are on EBAY costing as much as a Telefunken, Valvo, or Mini Watt. About four months ago, there was a spike in NOS tube prices. It's getting like gasoline. The prices go up and then they come down. It makes you wonder when you can buy.



Seems like that's pretty much the case for just about anything a guy might want these days... And everything else that he needs as well! But... I figure it's just me here these days, so if I wanna treat myself to nice tube, or effects pedal, every two or three months... Why not? Well, pedals are expensive so it might be fewer and further between for those, but you get my point.

Anyhoo... Telefunken... I'll bite. Let's do it. Full speed ahead!



MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm sorry that I missed you again. This time by not much. I hope we hook up soon. I wanted to find out how your pursuit of the Def Leppard tone went down.



One of these days we'll connect up bro. No worries.

Def Leppard tone... Well I think distortion-wise I can blend in w/ most of my Lep CD's pretty well. A little delay on the signal, and it's oh-so-close. So I think at this point it's really more a point of adding some eq, and effects (for sure chorus, and possibly a flanger, and what else I don't know...) to the mix. No gettin' around it, everything past Pyromania is heavy on the effects.

What your latest drug of choice music-wise?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You out there Josh man?

Moon to Josh...do you read?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> You out there Josh man?
> 
> Moon to Josh...do you read?



This is Major Tom to ground control. Go ahead.


----------



## solarburn

We play'n tag and who's it?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We play'n tag and who's it?



Who's on first?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I know you had that DL thread started and I made several suggestions. Those new DigiTech's are pretty awesome. I keep saying that I'm going to buy an RP1000. It does everything. Sound effects, amp modeling, speaker modeling and several other things. Hell, the owners manual is really thick.

Something you missed out on was I bought a Twister F3 50 watt head. It was supposed to be a screamer. It was probably the most lackluster amp I have ever owned. I even sent it back to the builder and when I got it back, same thing. I have it up for sale on EBAY. I hope I can break even on it. If I can, I will be looking for a JCM 800 2204 50 watt. Do some mod's on it and it won't be a disappointment. 

In the old days, I had the two most expensive Peavey's and when I moved to Phoenix, you couldn't get in a band unless you had a 2203 and at least a half stack. I got one and the four years later I sold it and bought two pre-CBS Fender Black Face Bassman's. Of course, these sound very similar to a JTM-45 or other early Marshall. I used both of them with my stage set up for many years. In 1999, I decided (after my second divorce) to treat myself to a DSL401 and DigiTech RP12. I started using that on gigs, since the cab was miked up. In some cases, I had the 401 sitting in a slanted stand next to the vocal monitor. That way, the guitar mix was better. I got my TSL122 in 2004 and then quickly made some deals for the others. As I have told several of the regulars here, I'm getting older and I can't handle the heavy gear like I used to. I like the idea of a 50 watt head and a 212 cab. Part A and part B. When the economy picks up, I will be selling my combo's. Hopefully in the KC area. I would really hate to have to ship them. I will probably keep one DSL401 and sell the rest. I would like to have two 50 watt heads. A 2204 and a two channel.

Well, I can dream can't I?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Oh boy. I love games. "Tag, you're it."


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I know you had that DL thread started and I made several suggestions. Those new DigiTech's are pretty awesome. I keep saying that I'm going to buy an RP1000. It does everything. Sound effects, amp modeling, speaker modeling and several other things. Hell, the owners manual is really thick.
> 
> Something you missed out on was I bought a Twister F3 50 watt head. It was supposed to be a screamer. It was probably the most lackluster amp I have ever owned. I even sent it back to the builder and when I got it back, same thing. I have it up for sale on EBAY. I hope I can break even on it. If I can, I will be looking for a JCM 800 2204 50 watt. Do some mod's on it and it won't be a disappointment.
> 
> In the old days, I had the two most expensive Peavey's and when I moved to Phoenix, you couldn't get in a band unless you had a 2203 and at least a half stack. I got one and the four years later I sold it and bought two pre-CBS Fender Black Face Bassman's. Of course, these sound very similar to a JTM-45 or other early Marshall. I used both of them with my stage set up for many years. In 1999, I decided (after my second divorce) to treat myself to a DSL401 and DigiTech RP12. I started using that on gigs, since the cab was miked up. In some cases, I had the 401 sitting in a slanted stand next to the vocal monitor. That way, the guitar mix was better. I got my TSL122 in 2004 and then quickly made some deals for the others. As I have told several of the regulars here, I'm getting older and I can't handle the heavy gear like I used to. I like the idea of a 50 watt head and a 212 cab. Part A and part B. When the economy picks up, I will be selling my combo's. Hopefully in the KC area. I would really hate to have to ship them. I will probably keep one DSL401 and sell the rest. I would like to have two 50 watt heads. A 2204 and a two channel.
> 
> Well, I can dream can't I?



Its a good dream.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Oh boy. I love games. "Tag, you're it."



Boy, where you been lately? You aren't cheatin' on us over at some other thread are you? That would be a shame.

You need to help me with that speaker thread like you promised.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I know you had that DL thread started and I made several suggestions. Those new DigiTech's are pretty awesome. I keep saying that I'm going to buy an RP1000. It does everything. Sound effects, amp modeling, speaker modeling and several other things. Hell, the owners manual is really thick.
> 
> Something you missed out on was I bought a Twister F3 50 watt head. It was supposed to be a screamer. It was probably the most lackluster amp I have ever owned. I even sent it back to the builder and when I got it back, same thing. I have it up for sale on EBAY. I hope I can break even on it. If I can, I will be looking for a JCM 800 2204 50 watt. Do some mod's on it and it won't be a disappointment.
> 
> In the old days, I had the two most expensive Peavey's and when I moved to Phoenix, you couldn't get in a band unless you had a 2203 and at least a half stack. I got one and the four years later I sold it and bought two pre-CBS Fender Black Face Bassman's. Of course, these sound very similar to a JTM-45 or other early Marshall. I used both of them with my stage set up for many years. In 1999, I decided (after my second divorce) to treat myself to a DSL401 and DigiTech RP12. I started using that on gigs, since the cab was miked up. In some cases, I had the 401 sitting in a slanted stand next to the vocal monitor. That way, the guitar mix was better. I got my TSL122 in 2004 and then quickly made some deals for the others. As I have told several of the regulars here, I'm getting older and I can't handle the heavy gear like I used to. I like the idea of a 50 watt head and a 212 cab. Part A and part B. When the economy picks up, I will be selling my combo's. Hopefully in the KC area. I would really hate to have to ship them. I will probably keep one DSL401 and sell the rest. I would like to have two 50 watt heads. A 2204 and a two channel.
> 
> Well, I can dream can't I?



... And that's what dreams are made of.

I too really love my TSL122, but the thing is a back breaker to take anywhere. I'd like to get my hands on a smaller Marshall just for sheer portability of it. But that'll have to wait too.

I don't believe I've ever had the opportunity to play through a 2204. Most of the guys around here seem to like 'em.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

You still meospeak?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I still have mine. It served me well in my thrash rock days. The only thing you needed was sheer volume. That is a loud 50 watt amp. Maybe I'll sell it to Marty.

(No, my brother has first shot at it. He found it for me.)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

joshuaaewallen said:


> You still meospeak?



Yeah, it's written on all of the bathroom walls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> You still meospeak?



Yes I am and the bathroom walls are proud to have me.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

All... Of the bathroom walls? Shoot I better get crackin' w/ my Sharpie and make Minnesota's bathrooms match all the rest of the country!


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> You still meospeak?



You gonna email me?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> All... Of the bathroom walls? Shoot I better get crackin' w/ my Sharpie and make Minnesota's bathrooms match all the rest of the country!



It cuts down on my advertising costs. That and I had one T-Shirt made that Joe wears all of the time.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> You gonna email me?



Maybe...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I still have mine. It served me well in my thrash rock days. The only thing you needed was sheer volume. That is a loud 50 watt amp. Maybe I'll sell it to Marty.
> 
> (No, my brother has first shot at it. He found it for me.)





Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah, it's written on all of the bathroom walls.



So... Lonestar... Uh, err... Lisa. At last we meet again... 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THt6zThZEiM"]YouTube - Spaceballs: I am your father's, brother's, nephew's...[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Maybe...



Well I know you said to go ahead with the Telefunken. However, don't PayPal me yet if that is what you were planning on doing.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I know you said to go ahead with the Telefunken. However, don't PayPal me yet if that is what you were planning on doing.



Oops... Want I should el-cancelo-da-moola?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We play'n tag and who's it?





Rockin_Lisa said:


> Oh boy. I love games. "Tag, you're it."



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvd3kaupZ60&feature=related]YouTube - Spaceballs-When Will Then be Now?[/ame]


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah Marty told me you were funny. Nothing wrong with some SpaceBalls.

Yes I have several brothers and I am trapped between them. (Please don't make a joke about that.)

They became rockers and taught me how to become one. Of course our parents don't know what to make of it. As long as I keep my day job (publishing) they are cool with my night time activities.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did we loose Joe already? I was just getting the fried chicken and potato salad out.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Mmm... Chicken? Whatcha got for beer?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah Marty told me you were funny.



Yep. I'm funny alright. Funny lookin'! 

Speaking of funny... Did ya hear the one about the... 



Rockin_Lisa said:


> Nothing wrong with some SpaceBalls.



Only one of the funniest flicks ever. Up there w/ Spinal Tap & Johnny Dangerously.



Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yes I have several brothers and I am trapped between them. (Please don't make a joke about that.)



I'll just have to take the high road on that one.



Rockin_Lisa said:


> They became rockers and taught me how to become one. Of course our parents don't know what to make of it. As long as I keep my day job (publishing) they are cool with my night time activities.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0dCVwdedE&feature=fvst]YouTube - Parents Just Don't Understand[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, it looks like the party died out. I had to take a call and then I ended up getting hungry talking about the fried chicken and potato salad, so I settled for pulled pork and some good KC Bar-B-Q sauce and yummy. (Had to have sweet onions and dill pickles too.)

Josh, I only drink the good stuff. I'm like Thrawn. It has to come in a 22 ounce bottle and be at least 8 percent alcohol.


----------



## joshuaaewallen




----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yeah... That's makin' me hungry too!


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> As long as I keep my day job (publishing) they are cool with my night time activities.



You're in publishing and you still have time to rock?!?! 

Me and a friend opened our own publishing business in 2008. We're making it okay but we're still taking baby steps. I put in a 16 hour day and a 20 hour back-to-back last week. I thought I was going to die for a couple of days after that. This week's been better - only a 12 hour day today. I haven't picked up my guitar for awhile now. I may take an early day Thursday and come home and blow the windows out before everyone gets home. I'm overdue.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, it looks like the party died out. I had to take a call and then I ended up getting hungry talking about the fried chicken and potato salad, so I settled for pulled pork and some good KC Bar-B-Q sauce and yummy. (Had to have sweet onions and dill pickles too.)
> 
> Josh, I only drink the good stuff. I'm like Thrawn. It has to come in a 22 ounce bottle and be at least 8 percent alcohol.



I've got some of that at about 33 degrees, but tonight my bottle is a 750ml and 86 proof. I ain't got time to fuck around.


----------



## solarburn

Sheesh! I have a senior moment and go take a nap and you guyz have a get together...

Tag you're all it now!


----------



## thrawn86

Tonight it was a Carne Asada burrito and a Blue Moon or two or threeee. *hic*


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I've got some of that at about 33 degrees, but tonight my bottle is a 750ml and 86 proof. I ain't got time to fuck around.





thrawn86 said:


> Tonight it was a Carne Asada burrito and a Blue Moon or two or threeee. *hic*


Grilled pork chops...

...mmm.

Outta beer.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok how about we get some tube porn into this thread?

Had the postman bring me 2 NOS brimars today

the first is a half boxplate version with a halo getter and a very deep flash

















The second is a little more interesting, its a box plate again, but the plates are black, i havent ever seen a black half boxplate so thats a nice quirk, and this one has a square getter as well, also pretty rare with a boxplate.











The pair together so you can see how much darker the black plates are than the regular grey plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Can't wait to see the pictures when you get the URL straightened out.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can't wait to see the pictures when you get the URL straightened out.



Must have been nudes...oh...all that glass shown...


----------



## MM54

Well I'm broke and my amp faded/cut twice in the past three days, so...

Suggestions for CP 12AX7's? I have EH's in there (were then when I got the amp) and I quite like them, so I may go with them, but I'd like to see what you guys suggest for the 900


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I tried to call you. It says you are over here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Well I'm broke and my amp faded/cut twice in the past three days, so...
> 
> Suggestions for CP 12AX7's? I have EH's in there (were then when I got the amp) and I quite like them, so I may go with them, but I'd like to see what you guys suggest for the 900



I'd put a Tung-Sol in V1 and you would be fine with regular EH's in the other slots.


----------



## MM54

Alright, cool, thanks


----------



## link

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd put a Tung-Sol in V1 and you would be fine with regular EH's in the other slots.



I've been reading this thread for some time now and decided to pick up some various tubes and I agree, I'm diggin' a Tung-Sol in V-1. I have a TAD 7025S in V-2, a JJ in V-3, and an EH in V-4. The only tube I picked up that I don't really like in my TSL is a Jan Phillips 5751. It's just too clean in V-1 and V-2 and too bright in V-4. I'm pretty happy with the results of what I picked up though, and it took a little rollin' to get them in the right spots, but it makes me want to try some more! Frome time to time I get G.A.S. but I'm infected by a new disease called T.A.S. now! Arrggghhh! Just what I needed!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can always start out with something nice like an old RCA or Raytheon Gray Plate. If you can spend a certain amount of time on EBAY, you can land some great deals.


----------



## link

Yea, been thinking about checking out ebay. The CP tubes I have now are a huge imporvement over the stock tubes so I can take some time and shop around for some better V1 and V2 tubes. I've always had kind of a love hate relationship with the TSL122 that I have. These tubes are getting me closer to appreciating this amp more though, so maybe I'll experiment some more before I start looking into a different amp. You guys have posted some great info here though and I for one appreciate that.


----------



## Procter2812

eughhhh, was just 'testing' my new cab fully at school today with some techies and guess what the JCM800 cut out after 1 chord!!

i checked all leads, speaker connections... there was no pop at all from the amp just a clean cut out... so i checked the HT fuse and was fine... 

Anyway i narrwoed it down to my last brimar going south... i swapped the brimar to V3 and it kicked back to life but with a couple whineeee noises...

Time to get looking for some moreeeee pre-amp valves


----------



## Kentucky Martian

OK here is one for ya!
Just so you know It is a TSl 60

while Looking thru My Preamp tubes I noticed somebody before me had changed some of the tubes in it. 
It had a,

Marshall tube in V1 and jj's in V2,V3,V4 Hummm has anybody seen this before.

If you need numbers I'll get them out later and post up the numbers.

Looks Like I'll be in the market for some tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can use the JJ's in V3 and V4, but junk the OE Marshall V1. Get a Tung-Sol Hand Select, Low Noise and a Mullard RI Hand Select, High Gain, for V1 and V2.

If you want to go a bit further, get EH 12AX7's for V3 and V4.


----------



## core

Got the JMP 2204 in the other day and turns out the tube line up is Mesa. The power tubes seem to be of a black plate type and look pretty good! Anyone know anything about Mesa tubes?

Unfortunately it powers up but doesn't have any output so I can't hear what it sounds like yet  I'll have to wait to start swapping tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

'ello, what's all this then?

... I thought my good friend Marty could fill me in on this trifecta of tone, as I am left to ponder...



















​


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Tube Man cometh.

Look what your money gets with Martimus Maximus?

The Electrohome is a Canadian Philips tube similar to a Amperex Bugle Boy. At 28-28, it is a robust V1, or could be used as a V2. A tube rollers delight.

The massive RCA is a very unique tube indeed. Listen to this story. I bought these NIB/NOS, so you are getting a brand new tube. When I bid on them, the seller claimed, "Made In Gt. Britain" and indeed I saw this on the picture. When I got them, I noticed something odd. They were all smooth plates. Mullard's were ribbed. I had a thought and checked it out. Sure enough, they were the same identical tube as an RFT Telefunken copy. So what you have is an East German tube that says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and is labeled RCA. Hell of a story.
Anyway, they kick ass in V4. We have found a stout tube unsuitable for V2 will work in V4. It opens the amp up. I think you will find that most of the crew are running a tube like this in V4. (Hey, you can always try it in V2, but the last 35-35 I sent you was our old friend the ICBM and your amp didn't like it.)

Finally the Tele. You will find a different flavor in your amp using this over the 7025. Two of my amps are set up for using the RP12 and I still use the 7025 in V1. All the others have an Amperex or Telefunken matched up to a Raytheon Black Plate.

You are going to have to do a complete preamp retube. As I had previously suggested, you can try the Tele in V1, the strong Black Plate in V2, the Electrohome in V3 and the RCA 35-35 in V4. That's going to make for a completely different tone for sure.

Anyway, this gives you some new tubes to roll and add to your collection. Have fun with them.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Tube Man cometh.
> 
> Look what your money gets with Martimus Maximus?
> 
> The Electrohome is a Canadian Philips tube similar to a Amperex Bugle Boy. At 28-28, it is a robust V1, or could be used as a V2. A tube rollers delight.
> 
> The massive RCA is a very unique tube indeed. Listen to this story. I bought these NIB/NOS, so you are getting a brand new tube. When I bid on them, the seller claimed, "Made In Gt. Britain" and indeed I saw this on the picture. When I got them, I noticed something odd. They were all smooth plates. Mullard's were ribbed. I had a thought and checked it out. Sure enough, they were the same identical tube as an RFT Telefunken copy. So what you have is an East German tube that says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and is labeled RCA. Hell of a story.
> Anyway, they kick ass in V4. We have found a stout tube unsuitable for V2 will work in V4. It opens the amp up. I think you will find that most of the crew are running a tube like this in V4. (Hey, you can always try it in V2, but the last 35-35 I sent you was our old friend the ICBM and your amp didn't like it.)
> 
> Finally the Tele. You will find a different flavor in your amp using this over the 7025. Two of my amps are set up for using the RP12 and I still use the 7025 in V1. All the others have an Amperex or Telefunken matched up to a Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> You are going to have to do a complete preamp retube. As I had previously suggested, you can try the Tele in V1, the strong Black Plate in V2, the Electrohome in V3 and the RCA 35-35 in V4. That's going to make for a completely different tone for sure.
> 
> Anyway, this gives you some new tubes to roll and add to your collection. Have fun with them.



This is exactly how I would start. Works well in a DSL...


----------



## MartyStrat54

If Joe says it's cool...it must be cool.


----------



## solarburn

It gets my "official" stamp of approval hehe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I gotta admit, twins are hot, but triplets are smokin'! Martimus Maximus' "Tone Trifecta" is lookin' pretty sweet. I can't wait to get these babies rolling.


----------



## Adwex

What do you gurus have for my Jubilee? I'm a NOS noob. I have current Tung Sols in V1 and V2, not even sure what I've got for the PI. I just had JJ EL34s installed recently, they made a significant difference over the =C='s I had in there. 

I pretty much keep my gain cranked, or backed off just a hair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you are doing better than most with the Tung-Sol's. It looks like the gain stages are V1A, B and V2A. So a Philips tube in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 would be the ticket for the JUB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> I gotta admit, twins are hot, but triplets are smokin'! Martimus Maximus' "Tone Trifecta" is lookin' pretty sweet. I can't wait to get these babies rolling.



Just glad to be your friend my man.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just glad to be your friend my man.


 
Awe... Your more than my friend bud. You're this Marshall junkie's hookup for glass that makes my baby rock! Your my guru! My NOS mentor that I could only aspire to learn but a little from the Tone Miester himself! In short... YOU ROCK bro!



Adwex said:


> What do you gurus have for my Jubilee? I'm a NOS noob. I have current Tung Sols in V1 and V2, not even sure what I've got for the PI. I just had JJ EL34s installed recently, they made a significant difference over the =C='s I had in there.
> 
> I pretty much keep my gain cranked, or backed off just a hair.





MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you are doing better than most with the Tung-Sol's. It looks like the gain stages are V1A, B and V2A. So a Philips tube in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 would be the ticket for the JUB.



I'd give a listen to Martimus Maximus, the man knows his stuff. Never steered me wrong!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man it's great to have the old crew back in action.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man it's great to have the old crew back in action.



Back in black bro!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Tube Man cometh.
> 
> Look what your money gets with Martimus Maximus?
> 
> The Electrohome is a Canadian Philips tube similar to a Amperex Bugle Boy. At 28-28, it is a robust V1, or could be used as a V2. A tube rollers delight.
> 
> The massive RCA is a very unique tube indeed. Listen to this story. I bought these NIB/NOS, so you are getting a brand new tube. When I bid on them, the seller claimed, "Made In Gt. Britain" and indeed I saw this on the picture. When I got them, I noticed something odd. They were all smooth plates. Mullard's were ribbed. I had a thought and checked it out. Sure enough, they were the same identical tube as an RFT Telefunken copy. So what you have is an East German tube that says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and is labeled RCA. Hell of a story.
> Anyway, they kick ass in V4. We have found a stout tube unsuitable for V2 will work in V4. It opens the amp up. I think you will find that most of the crew are running a tube like this in V4. (Hey, you can always try it in V2, but the last 35-35 I sent you was our old friend the ICBM and your amp didn't like it.)
> 
> Finally the Tele. You will find a different flavor in your amp using this over the 7025. Two of my amps are set up for using the RP12 and I still use the 7025 in V1. All the others have an Amperex or Telefunken matched up to a Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> You are going to have to do a complete preamp retube. As I had previously suggested, you can try the Tele in V1, the strong Black Plate in V2, the Electrohome in V3 and the RCA 35-35 in V4. That's going to make for a completely different tone for sure.
> 
> Anyway, this gives you some new tubes to roll and add to your collection. Have fun with them.


Any thoughts on the year of manufacture for these lovely ladies?


----------



## RiverRatt

The thrill of the hunt! I found a General Electric stereo phonograph today, one of the boxy ones with the removable lid and an external speaker latched on. It had a tube chart on it showing a couple of 50C5's, a 35W4 rectifier, and a 12AX7! I picked it up for $5 and ripped into it as soon as I got home. It was like opening a Christmas present... and getting a pair of socks. One old tired 1960's GE 12AX7. Imagine finding a GE tube in a GE record player.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> The thrill of the hunt! I found a General Electric stereo phonograph today, one of the boxy ones with the removable lid and an external speaker latched on. It had a tube chart on it showing a couple of 50C5's, a 35W4 rectifier, and a 12AX7! I picked it up for $5 and ripped into it as soon as I got home. It was like opening a Christmas present... and getting a pair of socks. One old tired 1960's GE 12AX7. Imagine finding a GE tube in a GE record player.



Nice find Ratt Man! Had a chance to test or plug it into anything yet?


----------



## core

So I got the 2204 up and running thanks to Jon, and I put the two Tele's I have in V1, V2 and the RCA in V3 so far and man that thing is a beast! It growls and has a lot of balls. Worlds apart from the stock Mesa's that were in it. I was like WOW what a difference! 

I'll try out the Raytheon's but I don't think I'll get the same result. We'll see man


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Nice find Ratt Man! Had a chance to test or plug it into anything yet?



Not yet. I haven't had time to do much playing lately. I'll try it in the Marshall, but I think it's probably going to end up in the Fender.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Any thoughts on the year of manufacture for these lovely ladies?



Telefunken-Mid 60's

Electrohome-Late 70's

RCA/RFT-Early 80's...I think.

If the Philips code is still on the Telefunken and Electrohome, post it and Alan is real good at reading those. He has his little online black book.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> If the Philips code is still on the Telefunken and Electrohome, post it and Alan is real good at reading those. He has his little online black book.



I downloaded it, thank you.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello. It's late Sunday night, but I wanted to say 'ello, 'ello.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​



Tonight's the night... I just got home from work and am gonna get my sorry hide in the shower, but then... Me and these three lovely ladies are going to dance.



MartyStrat54 said:


> The Tube Man cometh.
> 
> Look what your money gets with Martimus Maximus?
> 
> The Electrohome is a Canadian Philips tube similar to a Amperex Bugle Boy. At 28-28, it is a robust V1, or could be used as a V2. A tube rollers delight.
> 
> The massive RCA is a very unique tube indeed. Listen to this story. I bought these NIB/NOS, so you are getting a brand new tube. When I bid on them, the seller claimed, "Made In Gt. Britain" and indeed I saw this on the picture. When I got them, I noticed something odd. They were all smooth plates. Mullard's were ribbed. I had a thought and checked it out. Sure enough, they were the same identical tube as an RFT Telefunken copy. So what you have is an East German tube that says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and is labeled RCA. Hell of a story.
> Anyway, they kick ass in V4. We have found a stout tube unsuitable for V2 will work in V4. It opens the amp up. I think you will find that most of the crew are running a tube like this in V4. (Hey, you can always try it in V2, but the last 35-35 I sent you was our old friend the ICBM and your amp didn't like it.)
> 
> Finally the Tele. You will find a different flavor in your amp using this over the 7025. Two of my amps are set up for using the RP12 and I still use the 7025 in V1. All the others have an Amperex or Telefunken matched up to a Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> You are going to have to do a complete preamp retube. As I had previously suggested, you can try the Tele in V1, the strong Black Plate in V2, the Electrohome in V3 and the RCA 35-35 in V4. That's going to make for a completely different tone for sure.
> 
> Anyway, this gives you some new tubes to roll and add to your collection. Have fun with them.





MartyStrat54 said:


> Telefunken-Mid 60's
> 
> Electrohome-Late 70's
> 
> RCA/RFT-Early 80's...I think.
> 
> If the Philips code is still on the Telefunken and Electrohome, post it and Alan is real good at reading those. He has his little online black book.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let her rip. Dance the night away. Just you and a fire breathing Marshall and the PRS.


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, you should have a bottle of champagne for an event like that. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about the Tele/Raytheon combination.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let her rip. Dance the night away. Just you and a fire breathing Marshall and the PRS.



Don't ya just know it!



RiverRatt said:


> Josh, you should have a bottle of champagne for an event like that. I'm curious to hear what you have to say about the Tele/Raytheon combination.



Does a Jag-Bomb count?
______________________________________________

As w/ any drug... Use Only as directed. 

V1:




V2:




V3:




V4:




Pretty Maids All In A Row:




"The Sweetness":




The Rig:




And The Moment Of Truth...





Ludicrous speed... GO!!! (Dark Helmet)



PS... "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb"
(again... Dark Helmet)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, I thought you said you had two Raytheon Black Plates. Is that a GE Black Plate for V2? They ain't bad, I like them better than an RCA, plus it's a short plate. I just thought you had some Raytheon's.

Has it exploded yet?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, I thought you said you had two Raytheon Black Plates. Is that a GE Black Plate for V2? They ain't bad, I like them better than an RCA, plus it's a short plate. I just thought you had some Raytheon's.
> 
> Has it exploded yet?



No explosions yet... But I'm working on it!

Marty, 

This is the only Raytheon I have:


----------



## thrawn86

Man Josh, nice pics. That's a great way to post what they are visually. Tell us of the Moment of Truth.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> No explosions yet... But I'm working on it!
> 
> Marty,
> 
> This is the only Raytheon I have:



Write "V2" on the picture of that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You could use it, but it ain't a high gain tube. Man I could have swore you said you had a 127-129 Raytheon.

You could try it. It won't hurt nothing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Originally Posted by joshuaaewallen View Post
> My current preamp line up:
> 
> V1 - RCA 7025 (24/26)
> V2 - EICO ECC83 (30/30)(Made In Holland)
> V3 - Blackplate 12AX7 (126/130) (Made In The USA)
> V4 - Blackplate 12AX7 (122/115) (Made In The USA)



Okay Josh. Just to clarify for my sake. What are the brands of these USA Black Plates? The numbers suggest they are some I bought off of a seller in Colorado. His tester had readings like that. Anyway, what are these USA BP tubes in V3 and V4?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay Josh. Just to clarify for my sake. What are the brands of these USA Black Plates? The numbers suggest they are some I bought off of a seller in Colorado. His tester had readings like that. Anyway, what are these USA BP tubes in V3 and V4?



Hmm... I may have mislabeled something...

... Ok... I misspoke. Here's what I have for Raytheons...



 



Maybe that Jag Bomb was kickin' in, cause I got it mostly wrong.

Here's what's actually in the amp (at this very moment...):

V1: 

 V2: 




V3: 

 V4: 



Boy, I must be goin' senile early in life... :Ohno:

Ok... Are all the pieces fitting together, or am I _really_ losing my mind?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good. That other Raytheon BP is stouter. Yes, use it in V2 and the Tele in V1 with the Electrohome in V3 and the big RCA in V4.

Hubba, hubba, hubba. Four tubes in a row. Hubba, hubba, hubba. I just love the way they glow.

Okay Piedmont, it's time to give it a go and then a write up please.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good. That other Raytheon BP is stouter. Yes, use it in V2 and the Tele in V1 with the Electrohome in V3 and the big RCA in V4.
> 
> Hubba, hubba, hubba. Four tubes in a row. Hubba, hubba, hubba. I just love the way they glow.
> 
> Okay Piedmont, it's time to give it a go and then a write up please.



Marty look at at V2 closer. Thats not a Black plate. That looks like that grey plate one I got from you that turned out to be something other than the BP it was labeled(box)...remember?

Josh needs to get a BP high gainer from you. He has one lower gain I see...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you are right. That's a Sylvania Gray Plate. The trouble is, I have given a lot of glass away for free and I don't remember the situation behind this. I told you about how some of the tubes got shuffled around per a bad buyer, but it just baffles me that I would send a tube out in a box marked as a Raytheon BP and it actually is a Sylvania Gray Plate.

Well whatever the case may be a high gain Raytheon BP is called for.


----------



## superEGO

Wow.

First off, thank you to everyone who's participated in this thread thus far. It's been quite a read.. informative, educational, hilarious... Everything. I just spent the better part of the last week, starting at page 1, ending here, trying to soak in as much as possible.. and holy cow. my mind is blown.

Honestly, I'd never put much thought into what was going on inside my amp. I knew I liked the tube sound and I knew... how many were in there.. heh... But I hadn't given much thought to the idea of changing the tubes. I mean, I knew it had to happen some day, but I always sorta figured that that was more a problem for people who really really pushed the amp daily! (read: touring musicians)

Anyway, some recent amp issues (as of yet, undiagnosed) had me thinking about possible causes... which led me to realize that, cause or not, it's time for new tubes!

The really really short version of the problem, since it probably belongs in a different thread, is that several weeks ago, I turned it on during practice.. and there was a new noise coming out. Everything else "functioned" properly, but the noise level just went way up - drastically so (in comparison to how it had been previously). Noise makes it out of the DI out, for whatever that's worth. Like I said, as of yet, undiagnosed because the amp is still sitting at the practice space.. haven't had a moment to bring it home for some more in depth testing.

Here's what I'm working with:
JCM 2000 TSL 100
JCM 900 1936 2x12 CAB

Both were obtained in late 1999, so I imagine that's their production year too. I don't really know much about the product history as far as revisions, common problems, etc.. etc.. etc.., so maybe I should look into that too.

In the last 11 years, my playing style has evolved/changed quite a bit. When I first got the amp, I was *all* about the gain. I'd say I left the amp on the lead channel with the gain fairly cranked (volume, more subdued), pretty much all the time for a couple years. Fast forward to the last several years where I've been riding the crunch channel with the gain far lower... That (for me) sweet spot where things are *just* starting to crumble - pushed towards further breakup with various boost, fuzz, and other pedals.

The biggest part of my current playing is that it's a much more dynamic range of tones. From punch you in the face creamy wall-of-sound fuzz, subtle bluesy breakup, dreamy gilmourish, atmospheric, or clean...ish.

I've never been a fan of the clean channel on the amp... but then again, when I got it, I didn't really care about it really... just knew that I liked the idea of it existing. I've just never gotten a nice sound to come from it. It's always felt sort of numb and sterile to me.

It could probably be argued that this isn't the best amp for the current "me", but dang it, I love this amp. Even if I've apparently neglected to treat it to some regular tube maintenance. And rather than even consider swapping it for something else, I'd prefer to massage it and tube it into something that compliments me even more (because, really, even before the problems.. I'd been pretty satisfied with my sound). I'll probably get some uncommented judgment for my desire to tame the beast, as it were, but I guess that's just where I am now. Plus, I can always just throw some high-gain AX7's back in in 10 years when that's what I'm feeling 

At this pre-tinkering stage, I would probably have been none-the wiser by throwing 4x 12AX7's in there (and while I'm at it, new EL34s and some rebiasing). In fact, I have an uncompleted musicians friend order with:

4x Tungsol 12AX7
4x Groove Tubes Gold Series GT-EL34-M (Matched MEDIUM Quartet)

After reading this thread, I am way more interested in doing some experimentation!

It would seem like I might be a good candidate for some V1/V2 12AT7 or 5751 tinkering. I would really like to improve the clean channel some - maybe if it sucked less, I'd use it. I'd also like to subdue the lead gain some.. make it more accessible to my current playing style. Opening up those two channels as "more" usable would change my world. I'd like to keep things pretty open dynamically, but at the same time, I wouldn't be completely apposed to *some* compression happening in the chain. I absolutely want to go as low-noise as possible.. and I want as much chorded note clarity/definition as possible.. 

I tend to a riff/rhythm/atmosphere player.. lead/solo stuff, some, but mostly slower, less intricate "singy" style stuff.

Any recommendations on routes I should go? At this point, I am completely open to suggestions for replacement on all 8 tubes. I've not even started the similar looking power-amp tube thread... And if any of the vendors here wanted to help me assemble a package along with a couple backups/play tubes. I'd be more than happy to pay your fair markup versus some random schmoe on ebay or a tube shop. (because... um.. "dude on forum" is less random! heh).

Again, thanks for such an interesting and informative read.. you guys rule!


----------



## thecolorryan

I bought a Laney AOR Pro 50 Head off of Ebay a little while back, and I'm trying to figure out what brand of tubes are in the pre's. They are ECC83's and there is no name brand printed on them. The only markings on them are "ECC83M"(?) or ECC83H"(?). I can't tell what the last letter is for sure. The markings appear hand-painted. Any ideas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thecolorryan said:


> I bought a Laney AOR Pro 50 Head off of Ebay a little while back, and I'm trying to figure out what brand of tubes are in the pre's. They are ECC83's and there is no name brand printed on them. The only markings on them are "ECC83M"(?) or ECC83H"(?). I can't tell what the last letter is for sure. The markings appear hand-painted. Any ideas?



If the color of the ink is red, they are probably Chinese, Shuguang's. If you can post a clean picture, we can affirm this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

superEGO said:


> Wow.
> 
> First off, thank you to everyone who's participated in this thread thus far. It's been quite a read.. informative, educational, hilarious... Everything. I just spent the better part of the last week, starting at page 1, ending here, trying to soak in as much as possible.. and holy cow. my mind is blown.
> 
> Here's what I'm working with:
> JCM 2000 TSL 100
> JCM 900 1936 2x12 CAB
> 
> Both were obtained in late 1999, so I imagine that's their production year too. I don't really know much about the product history as far as revisions, common problems, etc.. etc.. etc.., so maybe I should look into that too.
> 
> In fact, I have an uncompleted musicians friend order with:
> 
> 4x Tungsol 12AX7
> 4x Groove Tubes Gold Series GT-EL34-M (Matched MEDIUM Quartet)
> 
> After reading this thread, I am way more interested in doing some experimentation!
> 
> It would seem like I might be a good candidate for some V1/V2 12AT7 or 5751 tinkering. I would really like to improve the clean channel some - maybe if it sucked less, I'd use it. I'd also like to subdue the lead gain some.. make it more accessible to my current playing style. Opening up those two channels as "more" usable would change my world. I'd like to keep things pretty open dynamically, but at the same time, I wouldn't be completely apposed to *some* compression happening in the chain. I absolutely want to go as low-noise as possible.. and I want as much chorded note clarity/definition as possible..
> 
> I tend to a riff/rhythm/atmosphere player.. lead/solo stuff, some, but mostly slower, less intricate "singy" style stuff.
> 
> Any recommendations on routes I should go? At this point, I am completely open to suggestions for replacement on all 8 tubes. I've not even started the similar looking power-amp tube thread... And if any of the vendors here wanted to help me assemble a package along with a couple backups/play tubes. I'd be more than happy to pay your fair markup versus some random schmoe on ebay or a tube shop. (because... um.. "dude on forum" is less random! heh).
> 
> Again, thanks for such an interesting and informative read.. you guys rule!



You deserve a medal if you read this big, honking thing. But yes, I like to pick random pages and it does take me back in time. 

First off, cancel your tube order. You don't want Groove Tubes. (Yucky!)

Your playing style has changed and you are looking for different tubes to accent this style. Rule 17-Don't use a 12AT7 in V1 or V2 of a DSL/TSL. It sucks. A 5751 is better. Just because tubes will interchange doesn't mean they will musically sound good. A 12AX7 is a musically good sounding tube and the various brands all have their own tone. A 5751 has some tone to it, but it is more of a neutral, transparent tube. An RCA 7025 is a low noise, high gain tube. It is a more powerful 5751.

If you want to clean up your clean channel, you will have to either use a 5751, or a 12AX7 that is low gain. (For example, a 12AX7 that is worn down to a lower gain threshold.) Do you remember me talking about putting worn out 12AX7's in the Fender amp and the owner thought it sounded fantastic? This would be one of your options, but you would have to have access to tubes of this sort. The online tube stores would not be able to accommodate this.

V1 is the flavor tube. V2 adds a little to it, but in a preamp circuit, V1 is the main dog. If you use a neutral sounding tube in V1, then you will want a tube with some flavor in V2. More than likely, this would be a Raytheon Black Plate. However, a high gain Telefunken or other Philips tube would liven things up.

Going by your comments. I would go this route.

V1-Medium Low gain Premium tube (Mullard, Amperex, Telefunken, etc.)
V2-High Gain Raytheon Black Plate
V3-Current Production (CP) or Sylvania Gray Plate
V4-High Gain CP or Sylvania GP

Winged =C= or EH6CA7 Power Tubes

Current Production

V1-Medium Gain Tung-Sol-Hand Select Low Noise
V2-High Gain Mullard RI-Hand Select Low Noise
V3-EH Regular
V4-EH Regular

Winged =C= or EH6CA7 Power Tubes

If you decide to go with a 5751 in V1, then I would recommend the EH6CA7's.


----------



## core

Gotta hand it to you back when it was like 60-70 pages I could only get through the first 20 or so!

Now on to my tube frolicking, I got a winner!!!! The Raytheon Grey Plate Gold/Yellow label won out over the Tele (2nd) and the RCA 7025 with a distant fourth for the Raytheon JRP Blk Plate (just didn't hold up tonewise). My JMP 2204 is just a beast with that tube in V1 and I put my strongest 7025 in V3 with the Tele in V2 and it's a goood setup now. Man I love that amp! Now I gotta look into some solid 6550's


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> If the color of the ink is red, they are probably Chinese, Shuguang's. If you can post a clean picture, we can affirm this.



The color of the ink is Ryan...


----------



## MartyStrat54

core said:


> Gotta hand it to you back when it was like 60-70 pages I could only get through the first 20 or so!
> 
> Now on to my tube frolicking, I got a winner!!!! The Raytheon Grey Plate Gold/Yellow label won out over the Tele (2nd) and the RCA 7025 with a distant fourth for the Raytheon JRP Blk Plate (just didn't hold up tonewise). My JMP 2204 is just a beast with that tube in V1 and I put my strongest 7025 in V3 with the Tele in V2 and it's a goood setup now. Man I love that amp! Now I gotta look into some solid 6550's



Your enthusiasm is giving me wood. Those 6550's could prove to be hard to snag.


----------



## superEGO

MartyStrat54 said:


> First off, cancel your tube order. You don't want Groove Tubes. (Yucky!)


*click* 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Rule 17-Don't use a 12AT7 in V1 or V2 of a DSL/TSL. It sucks. A 5751 is better. Just because tubes will interchange doesn't mean they will musically sound good.



So you think an AT7 will suck away the tone? Those who seem to be happy with them, are they not TSL/DSL users? My mind is all confused about who's using what! When I first started reading the thread, I had this crazy idea of AU7's. Heh.. clearly, that idea has changed 



MartyStrat54 said:


> If you want to clean up your clean channel, you will have to either use a 5751, or a 12AX7 that is low gain. (For example, a 12AX7 that is worn down to a lower gain threshold.)



By worn down, does that equate to used? For example.. the tubes in my amp now.. would they qualify as such?



MartyStrat54 said:


> V1 is the flavor tube. V2 adds a little to it, but in a preamp circuit, V1 is the main dog. If you use a neutral sounding tube in V1, then you will want a tube with some flavor in V2. More than likely, this would be a Raytheon Black Plate. However, a high gain Telefunken or other Philips tube would liven things up.



So let's see if I understand this:
V1 and V2 represent my preamp gain stage. V2 basically fluffs up the levels established in V1. So the predominant tone comes from V1. V2 can act as a way to direct how much gain to tack on the tone? But, I assume, somewhat limited by the amount of gain V1 was able to do.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Going by your comments. I would go this route.
> 
> V1-Medium Low gain Premium tube (Mullard, Amperex, Telefunken, etc.)
> V2-High Gain Raytheon Black Plate
> V3-Current Production (CP) or Sylvania Gray Plate
> V4-High Gain CP or Sylvania GP
> 
> Winged =C= or EH6CA7 Power Tubes
> 
> Current Production
> 
> V1-Medium Gain Tung-Sol-Hand Select Low Noise
> V2-High Gain Mullard RI-Hand Select Low Noise
> V3-EH Regular
> V4-EH Regular
> 
> Winged =C= or EH6CA7 Power Tubes
> 
> If you decide to go with a 5751 in V1, then I would recommend the EH6CA7's.



So the little bit of research I was able to do, the EH6CA7's definitely seem like they fit me more than the Winged C's.

With those two lineup selections, are they both 5751 V1, AX7 V2-V4?

I can't remember.. Has anyone here ever double-stacked a 5751 in V1 V2? What happened?

Thanks for such a fast reply Marty... I appreciate it


----------



## solarburn

I used an AT7 in V1,V3 and the PI slot and only one position at a time hehe, not 3 At7's at once. I liked it in V1 but it does neuter the gain a bit much. In V3 I didn't really notice a significant change and it pointed out how the V3 position contributes flavor wise. It was ok in the PI slot. I prefer a 12AX7 driving the power tubes in the PI.

AT7's don't cost much and to satisfy any curiosity you could get one and try it out just to see. I never use mine any more cause I'm getting more of what I want out of certain tubes in V1 & V2. A Telefunken in V1 and Raytheon Black Plate in V2 really is a great combo. A few of us dig on that combo here. I usually play hardrock and milder gain stuff just to let you know I am not a modern high gain user.

As far as double stacking low gain tubes there is no hard rules here. Experiment with your amp in your set up(speakers/cab,guitar,pedals). Its a great way to get to know tubes and your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think at some point I tried two 5751's at the same time and didn't like the tone and didn't like the flatness it left my amp. I have tried a lot of different lineups that never made it in this thread.

As Joe said, you can pick up a couple of JAN 5751's for around $20 on the big online tube stores.

And you are right on in understanding how V1 and V2 works. Ideally, you want a V1 with great tone and a low noise floor.

We all have tried a 12AT7 in our amps, but as you can see, there were no takers. It leaves the amp flat.

I think I have some premium 12AX7's that are low gain and would be perfect for you. It sounds like you would like two lower gain tubes if you are wanting to try two 5751's. I think I could come up with a premium low gain V1 and a low gain Raytheon BP. PM me if you are interested in them. I would have to look to see what I actually have in a lower gain.


----------



## cudamax2343

Can anyone tell me if they have any of these? and how old they are? and if they would even compare to any other 12AX7? and maybe who would of made these.




They have a big square getter on top


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a real murky picture. But the plate structure looks like an old Shuguang. Is the tube older than 10 years old? In the recent past, the preamp tubes from Russia have white ink and the Chinese tubes are red ink. However, this doesn't hold true for the distant past. 

Can you take a clearer picture of the plates and a good shot of the getter?


----------



## cudamax2343

They came out of a old JTM 60 I had a couple of years ago. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll try and get a better shot of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, that will help.


----------



## cudamax2343

This is the best I can get with my Camera. Not much better than the other one. Anyways like I said they came out of a JTM-60 head and they are in white lettering Marshall ECC83 and it has a square top getter


----------



## joshuaaewallen

superEGO said:


> ... So you think an AT7 will suck away the tone? Those who seem to be happy with them, are they not TSL/DSL users? My mind is all confused about who's using what! When I first started reading the thread, I had this crazy idea of AU7's...



I actually really liked the 12AU7 in V1 of my TSL, for clean to medium crunch... But beyond that... Not so much a rockin' "Marshall sounding tube" tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... We all have tried a 12AT7 in our amps, but as you can see, there were no takers. It leaves the amp flat...



Amen!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you are right. That's a Sylvania Gray Plate. The trouble is, I have given a lot of glass away for free and I don't remember the situation behind this. I told you about how some of the tubes got shuffled around per a bad buyer, but it just baffles me that I would send a tube out in a box marked as a Raytheon BP and it actually is a Sylvania Gray Plate.
> 
> Well whatever the case may be a high gain Raytheon BP is called for.



No worries mate. I'm still rockin'!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Okay Piedmont, it's time to give it a go and then a write up please.



Sorry for the lack of a good write up on this one guys... W/ this lineup I am finding such an inspiration for experimentation w/ the eq. It is so dynamic and interesting that I feel like I have really _rediscovered_ mids. I find myself tweaking the bass & treble down and cranking more mids into the picture. This is foreign turf for me, and I am just having a great time playing around w/ it. It also makes me wanna explore my neck pickup a lot more.

I'll try to do a better write up once I've really grabbed hold of this line up. I gotta say... Thanks Marty for the Martimus Maximus tone pack. I am really enjoying this. Rock on bro!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> No worries mate. I'm still rockin'!



We don't worry about the happs but more importantly we want you to have a real Raytheon BP in V2 so you can enjoy the proper mix hehe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Tube Man cometh.
> 
> *Look what your money gets with Martimus Maximus?*
> 
> The Electrohome is a Canadian Philips tube similar to a Amperex Bugle Boy. At 28-28, it is a robust V1, or could be used as a V2. A tube rollers delight.
> 
> The massive RCA is a very unique tube indeed. Listen to this story. I bought these NIB/NOS, so you are getting a brand new tube. When I bid on them, the seller claimed, "Made In Gt. Britain" and indeed I saw this on the picture. When I got them, I noticed something odd. They were all smooth plates. Mullard's were ribbed. I had a thought and checked it out. Sure enough, they were the same identical tube as an RFT Telefunken copy. So what you have is an East German tube that says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and is labeled RCA. Hell of a story.
> Anyway, they kick ass in V4. We have found a stout tube unsuitable for V2 will work in V4. It opens the amp up. I think you will find that most of the crew are running a tube like this in V4. (Hey, you can always try it in V2, but the last 35-35 I sent you was our old friend the ICBM and your amp didn't like it.)
> 
> Finally the Tele. You will find a different flavor in your amp using this over the 7025. Two of my amps are set up for using the RP12 and I still use the 7025 in V1. All the others have an Amperex or Telefunken matched up to a Raytheon Black Plate.
> 
> You are going to have to do a complete preamp retube. As I had previously suggested, you can try the Tele in V1, the strong Black Plate in V2, the Electrohome in V3 and the RCA 35-35 in V4. That's going to make for a completely different tone for sure.
> 
> Anyway, this gives you some new tubes to roll and add to your collection. Have fun with them.


... ___________________________________________

As w/ any drug... Use Only as directed. 

V1:




V2:




V3:




V4:




Pretty Maids All In A Row:




"The Sweetness":




The Rig:




And The Moment Of Truth...





Ludicrous speed... GO!!! (Dark Helmet)



PS... "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb"
(again... Dark Helmet)[/QUOTE]



MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Okay Piedmont, it's time to give it a go and then a write up please.



Sorry for the lack of a good write up on this one guys... W/ this lineup I am finding such an inspiration for experimentation w/ the eq. It is so dynamic and interesting that I feel like I have really _rediscovered_ mids. I find myself tweaking the bass & treble down and cranking more mids into the picture. This is foreign turf for me, and I am just having a great time playing around w/ it. It also makes me wanna explore my neck pickup a lot more.

I'll try to do a better write up once I've really grabbed hold of this line up. I gotta say... Thanks Marty for the Martimus Maximus tone pack. I am really enjoying this. Rock on bro!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We don't worry about the happs but more importantly we want you to have a real Raytheon BP in V2 so you can enjoy the proper mix hehe.



I'm game for that one mate. I'll have to have a chat w/ Mr. Maximus and see what might be available.

Hey... How you doin' these days mate?


----------



## RiverRatt

core said:


> Gotta hand it to you back when it was like 60-70 pages I could only get through the first 20 or so!
> 
> Now on to my tube frolicking, I got a winner!!!! The Raytheon Grey Plate Gold/Yellow label won out over the Tele (2nd) and the RCA 7025 with a distant fourth for the Raytheon JRP Blk Plate (just didn't hold up tonewise). My JMP 2204 is just a beast with that tube in V1 and I put my strongest 7025 in V3 with the Tele in V2 and it's a goood setup now. Man I love that amp! Now I gotta look into some solid 6550's



I think those JRP's make a hell of a phase inverter tube.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'm game for that one mate. I'll have to have a chat w/ Mr. Maximus and see what might be available.
> 
> Hey... How you doin' these days mate?



Sorry Josh I had to go to work when you posted this. Things are well. Me and the daughters are hav'n fits and giggles while mom is over At her Mums for a week. I might be on here a lil more this month too cause I have it off for vacation. Go'n nowhere special but I always manage to have fun anyways.

Marty's try'n out some speakers for me and letting me know which ones sound good. I'm interested in the Eminence Wizards and the Black Powders he ordered. Wasn't that nice of him to buy these and try them out just for me...?

Well get to roll'n those sardines and report back what you dig.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sorry Josh I had to go to work when you posted this. Things are well. Me and the daughters are hav'n fits and giggles while mom is over At her Mums for a week. I might be on here a lil more this month too cause I have it off for vacation. Go'n nowhere special but I always manage to have fun anyways.
> 
> Marty's try'n out some speakers for me and letting me know which ones sound good. I'm interested in the Eminence Wizards and the Black Powders he ordered. Wasn't that nice of him to buy these and try them out just for me...?
> 
> Well get to roll'n those sardines and report back what you dig.


what kind of cab are you using now?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> what kind of cab are you using now?



Well I have an Avatar 412 of greenbacks and then I have 2 112's. One has a Veteran 30 in it and the other a K100. I'm actually using the 2 112's daisey'd together in my bedroom. Frick do those get loud. Just got done cranking the shit out of the Marshall. I also have a 212 over at a friends with a V30/VT30 mix.

I sold my other 412 of H30's to that friend. Now I want to try the Wizards for the Marshall and I'm not sure yet for the Monza. It sounds good going through any of my cabs but I think an Alnico speaker would be good. I also might down the road just pair the Monza up with one of Dr Z's 410's.


----------



## rykus

hey all, back from the tretcherous hand injury (my advice don't try it) while i was on down time a plethera of new and exciting gear arrived in my mail box.... seems i made up for the hours a day id ussually play by excessive ebay'ing. the most exciting was a new maple neck strat to help me tighten up my playing while i practice, i still jam with a paul though. as well as 2 mullard i63 code , 6 phillips mini watt, 2 strong 5751's, 2 strong ray blk 17mm...... aaannnnnnddd
the ultimate score 5 ray blk 17mm labled baldwin for 52! dolla.... and he threw in a free 12au7 blk as well, add said 5ea and showed a pic of 1 so no one bid high and i won expecting to feel let down but low and behold 6 tubes! made me all warm and fuzzy.
so far i haven't rolled through to many, but due to general consensus i stuck a blk plate in v2 and rolled a couple pre tube..
first i tried the 5751 in v1 for a couple days with the strat i wasn't used to and fought it the whole way, adjusting my pickups ect as you would with any new guitar but i couldn't get the bridge pickup to sound good, i even started searcking forums to see what aftermarket pu is best for more dirty 50's growl, then one day i decided to pop the mullard in v1 and DAMB now i know why these are big$$$ (although i'm not a fan of telefunken) right away i could hit the treble pickup hard without the icepick clean bright i'd been getting from the 5751, super growly and dirty even at lower volumes but with more clarity and definition than the valvo. so far mullard then valvo are my favs, i will try to a/b them soon and try some others( still haven't got to the bugle boy) but i'm so stoked to be able to shred again, and the sound of this mullard its kinda hard to stop and roll through the unknown.
anyways thats my update, hopefully i'll be back soon with more 

doug


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you are back to rocking, Doug. Yeah a Mullard has a little more grit to it, but it is still articulate. Makes a great V1.

Nice score of the BP's. I wish I had found them.


----------



## MM54

Here's a weird question for ya.

I've a very slightly microphonic tube somewhere in my preamp, and $3.34 in the bank. 
What would be the easiest way to determine which of the three is rattling when I play the harmonic on the 7th fret of the g-string, and which slot (V1, V2, or V3) would it be least noticeable in until I come across $40 to replace them all (they're overdue anyway) ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lightly tap on the tubes to see which one is microphonic. Then take a high quality thick rubber band and wind it tightly on the tube about in the middle. Put it in V3 and then the others in the V1 and V2 slot.

If you can't determine which tube is bad, start with V1. Wrap it with the rubber band and move it to V3. So on and so on.


----------



## MM54

Awesome, I read that before somewhere but didn't remember it in the frustration of "Of course now that I have no money I need new valves!" 

Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's time to play "Spot the Matsushita"!

I'm not going to post a link to the eBay auction titled "5 Vintage Matsushita Japan 12AX7 Audio Tubes" so as not to offend anyone. See if you can find the auction and tell which tubes are actually Matsushitas. One small hint: Toshibas weren't made by Matsushita.

I'm getting really tired of seller BS. Dig this line from another auction:

"The brand states Matsushita however I have seen on the internet that these are the japanese versions issued by Mullard."

Hey, he read it on the internet, so it must be true!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It's time to play "Spot the Matsushita"!
> 
> I'm getting really tired of seller BS. Dig this line from another auction:
> 
> "The brand states Matsushita however I have seen on the internet that these are the japanese versions issued by Mullard."
> 
> Hey, he read it on the internet, so it must be true!



I saw that a few days ago and just laughed. Yeah Mullard sent them 500,000 tubes and the Japanese issued them to new owners.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Are they going to be moving this thread to the Workbench? I think they should just leave it alone.


----------



## Adwex

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Are they going to be moving this thread to the Workbench? I think they should just leave it alone.



It will be left alone.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Adwex said:


> It will be left alone.



You rock Adwex!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're on here early today. Did you get off work early?


----------



## MartyStrat54

And thanks for helping keep the thread here where it started. I agree that there are better places in the Workbench for it, but this started in Marshall Amps and who knew it would become the massive, popular thread it is.

Thanks ADWEX.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> You're on here early today. Did you get off work early?



Yeah, I got off work early. My schedule is pretty nice. Although I do work two long days.

I got something I want to discuss. I'll send you a PM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I got something I want to discuss. I'll send you a PM.



Fire away.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I also might down the road just pair the Monza up with one of Dr Z's 410's.



That's exactly what I was thinking. From the Monza clips I've heard a good 4x10 alnico cab with that head would be killer.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking. From the Monza clips I've heard a good 4x10 alnico cab with that head would be killer.



It really would. It'd be my first 410 as well. Like I said it sounds good through anything I have so I'm not too worried.

The only Matsushitas I want now are the era you got. My other's(slanted getters)sound good but not as good as the D getters.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you get an all alnico cab, even in 10-inch, it would be over a grand.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you get an all alnico cab, even in 10-inch, it would be over a grand.



Yeah. The Z cab I'm thinking of has Z spec'd 10 inchers. I won't be able to afford a 410 Alnico loaded. Still like to try one in my 112 though.


Dr. Z 4x10 Speaker Cabinet in Surf Green w/ Tan Grill


----------



## Kentucky Martian

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you get an all alnico cab, even in 10-inch, it would be over a grand.



Not if you know cab builder and a speaker dealer  Let me see what i can come up with tomorrow!!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> And thanks for helping keep the thread here where it started. I agree that there are better places in the Workbench for it, but this started in Marshall Amps and who knew it would become the massive, popular thread it is.
> 
> Thanks ADWEX.



Ditto! Muchas Gracias!

- And remember, I'm not only the Hair Club president... I'm also a client.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Solar...

... You still like to use over-drives and what not to push your amp's front end when you need a boost?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Solar...
> 
> ... You still like to use over-drives and what not to push your amp's front end when you need a boost?



Absolutely. Usually the crunch channel and lead 1. Its one of the things I like most about the DSL is its ability to take a boost or OD and still clean up with guitar volume to a certain extent while being boosted. Remeber I'm not a high gain player anyways...much.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You guys available to help cheer me up?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You guys available to help cheer me up?



Always. What ya down about?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Absolutely. Usually the crunch channel and lead 1. Its one of the things I like most about the DSL is its ability to take a boost or OD and still clean up with guitar volume to a certain extent while being boosted. Remeber I'm not a high gain player anyways...much.



Any suggestions on a reasonably priced pedal that would push me up to 11 (sorry for the Spinal Tap-is) when I need that little extra push? That extra umph...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, I just finished talking to Marty and I told him the bad news yesterday. It came as an unexpected shock, but our bass player is leaving our band and she told us she was taking time off, but it's already around on the grapevine that she is joining this other band and will be the only girl in that band. 

It has just ruined our scheduled. I'm really upset.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, I just finished talking to Marty and I told him the bad news yesterday. It came as an unexpected shock, but our bass player is leaving our band and she told us she was taking time off, but it's already around on the grapevine that she is joining this other band and will be the only girl in that band.
> 
> It has just ruined our scheduled. I'm really upset.



Bummer. That does suck. Too bad I can't play bass (of course I can barely play guitar...), I'd be there in a heartbeat. Well... Look on the brite side... Ya still got a band... And in the future you'll look at this as just a bump in the road. Hakuna matata. Right.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Part of what I told Lisa-Well, there is nothing you can do except to try and audition another bass player as soon as possible. You might not be able to go with a female, you might have to get a guy to take her place. I would find someone with stage presence and the ability to pick up your tunes really quick.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, I just finished talking to Marty and I told him the bad news yesterday. It came as an unexpected shock, but our bass player is leaving our band and she told us she was taking time off, but it's already around on the grapevine that she is joining this other band and will be the only girl in that band.
> 
> It has just ruined our scheduled. I'm really upset.


Hey... Ya could look at yerselves like the White Stripes... Say, "We don't need no stinkin' bass player!" (gotta say it like paccino)


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, I'm going to get some ads out fast and hopefully we will find a talented bassist. Lucky for us we have a dedicated lead singer, so we still have her.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, I just finished talking to Marty and I told him the bad news yesterday. It came as an unexpected shock, but our bass player is leaving our band and she told us she was taking time off, but it's already around on the grapevine that she is joining this other band and will be the only girl in that band.
> 
> It has just ruined our scheduled. I'm really upset.



... Like the White Stripes... Only better! Afterall... w/ a name like Rockin Lisa, you oughta be able to make one heck of a racket, eh?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah, I'm going to get some ads out fast and hopefully we will find a talented bassist. Lucky for us we have a dedicated lead singer, so we still have her.



Can ya sneak in some bass lines w/ an octave pedal or the like? Just to get by fer a bit?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well Josh, you're taking it all in stride. I hope in a few more days I will come down. I'm a nervous wreck. I'm afraid I will drink too much scotch.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I wish I had something constructive to offer, but I have very little band experience... And what I mean by "very little", is actually none.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well Josh, you're taking it all in stride. I hope in a few more days I will come down. I'm a nervous wreck. I'm afraid I will drink too much scotch.



I tried that when my ex-wife took off...
... Wouldn't recommend it.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well there are times when it can consume your entire personal life, so you can't be involved in any sort of relationship. If you get in a relationship and it turns sour, then the other members are at you until you get out of the relationship. That or they would want you gone. It's like being in a cult (and why there is a band called the Cult). Everything evolves around the band. If you don't feel that way and if you can't dedicate the time, you are not band material, you are just someone who plays an instrument.

I know it sounds harsh, but that's how it is.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well there are times when it can consume your entire personal life, so you can't be involved in any sort of relationship. If you get in a relationship and it turns sour, then the other members are at you until you get out of the relationship. That or they would want you gone. It's like being in a cult (and why there is a band called the Cult). Everything evolves around the band. If you don't feel that way and if you can't dedicate the time, you are not band material, you are just someone who plays an instrument.
> 
> I know it sounds harsh, but that's how it is.



I hear ya loud and clear. And there ain't anything wrong w/ knowing what direction ya want to take in life. I learned a long time ago I don't need to be in a band to enjoy making music (or my version of it), but it a real hoot when I do get a chance to play w/ other folks.

Either way... I know one thing for a fact. As my Granny used to say, "This too shall pass". It always does. I have no doubt that you'll keep on rockin' for a long, long time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well don't be so hard on yourself and remember that the other members need to participate in finding a new bass player. I don't want it dragging you down and causing you to feel blue. Please don't drink to excess. It won't solve anything. Trust me, I've been there and it doesn't help.

Monday may be a good day for you. I'm sure there are replacements that are eager to jump in and take that bass player position. I'll bet by the end of next week, you will have found someone.

That grapevine works both ways you know.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well don't be so hard on yourself and remember that the other members need to participate in finding a new bass player. I don't want it dragging you down and causing you to feel blue. Please don't drink to excess. It won't solve anything. Trust me, I've been there and it doesn't help.
> 
> Monday may be a good day for you. I'm sure there are replacements that are eager to jump in and take that bass player position. I'll bet by the end of next week, you will have found someone.
> 
> That grapevine works both ways you know.



Amen! Keep puttin' the word out and keep rockin' w/ or w/out, and it'll all come out in the wash!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, I thought Joe would be over here. I left him a message. I'm probably going to take off.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I believe that if you have a passion for what you do, you just plain never give up. Djengo Reinhardt could only use two fingers on his fret hand because the others were crippled in a wagon fire when he was younger. Rick Allen from Def Leppard lost his arm in a car wreck... He is still rockin'. This is just a bump in the road. As the Aussie's say... No worries.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, I thought Joe would be over here. I left him a message. I'm probably going to take off.



Keep yer chin up, ok?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks, I'll see you all later when I have some news. Tell Joe that I'm sorry I missed him again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Solar...
> 
> ... You still like to use over-drives and what not to push your amp's front end when you need a boost?



What you really need is a fat-assed tube in V2. You're not getting the gain out of that BP you are running. You need a 31-31.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> V1:
> 
> V2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V3:
> 
> V4:



Ok... Still no real write up. But lemme exlain...

This seems to make the TSL a different creature than what it was... Even w/ out the recommended 31/31 BP. I have been finding that I am playing w/ the eq a lot more than I used to. There's more subtle nuances than I recall. All sorts of in-between tones. I'm _definately havin' fun w/ this!_ That being said...



MartyStrat54 said:


> What you really need is a fat-assed tube in V2. You're not getting the gain out of that BP you are running. You need a 31-31.



Marty, my man... You've never sent me in the wrong direction. I'm open to talkin' turkey on the high gain BP.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... Still no real write up. But lemme exlain...
> 
> This seems to make the TSL a different creature than what it was... Even w/ out the recommended 31/31 BP. I have been finding that I am playing w/ the eq a lot more than I used to. There's more subtle nuances than I recall. All sorts of in-between tones. I'm _definately havin' fun w/ this!_ That being said...
> 
> 
> 
> Marty, my man... You've never sent me in the wrong direction. I'm open to talkin' turkey on the high gain BP.



I spent about 6 hours yesterday just jammin' away, twistin' & tweakin'... This is getting fun again!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Probably try the high gain BP before goin' the pedal route... Funny, I've had this amp almost two years, and I'm still learning how to tweak it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gooble, gooble, gooble. Let me send you a PM.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Thanks, I'll see you all later when I have some news. Tell Joe that I'm sorry I missed him again.



I pm'd you doll. Hang in there!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Any suggestions on a reasonably priced pedal that would push me up to 11 (sorry for the Spinal Tap-is) when I need that little extra push? That extra umph...



Here is a great OD pedal to experiment with and it won't break the bank. $40.

Get version 1 not version 2 which has just been released.

Buy Danelectro Cool Cat Series CTO-1 Transparent Overdrive Guitar Effects Pedal | Overdrive, Distortion, Fuzz & Boost | Musician's Friend


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I finished eating. Boy was I hungry. My appetite took a dive, but I make a hot Rueben sandwich and I'm all better now. Gee, it's amazing what a little food can do. Of course, I damn near ate a whole bag of potato chips.

You out there Joe? I got your message. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was wondering if you were still logged on. It said you were. Glad to see you're eating again. Two days without eating is hard on your system girl.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Probably try the high gain BP before goin' the pedal route... Funny, I've had this amp almost two years, and I'm still learning how to tweak it...



You can do both and remember a pedal can have a great range of adjustment for in between gain levels paired with your amps gain. One of the most useful benefits is to give it more body without over saturating it. I think alot of players don't really get how to use a pedal to eek out some more great tones out of their amps. Just like NOS tubes a pedal CAN have great dynamics too. A little goes along ways...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I got to take a phone call, but I will be back.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I finished eating. Boy was I hungry. My appetite took a dive, but I make a hot Rueben sandwich and I'm all better now. Gee, it's amazing what a little food can do. Of course, I damn near ate a whole bag of potato chips.
> 
> You out there Joe? I got your message. Thanks.



Tag your it! Got ya. Yeah eating really can make a diff on the energy level especially when dealing with touchy situations. Good on you for fueling up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I finished eating. Boy was I hungry. My appetite took a dive, but I make a hot Rueben sandwich and I'm all better now. Gee, it's amazing what a little food can do. Of course, I damn near ate a whole bag of potato chips.
> 
> You out there Joe? I got your message. Thanks.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Tag your it! Got ya. Yeah eating really can make a diff on the energy level especially when dealing with touchy situations. Good on you for fueling up.



I agree totally. On the other hand... Last August my appetite took a nose dive and there's 70 pounds less of me because of it. That's a good thing! Now you on the other hand... Not such a good idea.

... I gotta hand it to ya though, yer taste buds are well trained. Sounds like some yummer stuff there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here is a great OD pedal to experiment with and it won't break the bank. $40.
> 
> Get version 1 not version 2 which has just been released.
> 
> Buy Danelectro Cool Cat Series CTO-1 Transparent Overdrive Guitar Effects Pedal | Overdrive, Distortion, Fuzz & Boost | Musician's Friend



I might have to get me a "Version One" if they are still available. 

What would it do to the Twister?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I might have to get me a "Version One" if they are still available.
> 
> What would it do to the Twister?



??? Do tell good buddy. My curiosity is peeked.


----------



## solarburn

I went to Amazon.com and found one for me. Shoot that amp!LOL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I went to Amazon.com and found one for me. Shoot that amp!LOL!



Was that a version one being sold as new? Got a link for a friend?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Was that a version one being sold as new? Got a link for a friend?



Yeah mine was brand new. Let me see what I can come up with. I got mine awhile back so I don't know whats available now. I think there should be some out there...new even. Its a sleeper pedal and based on the Timmy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I would want the one that you recommended. Lord knows that I don't have enough pedals.

I will look around later. All this talk of food and I hadn't had anything to eat.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Sorry for that. The drummer called with a possible candidate. The only problem is she is way across town and it would be a 50 mile trip one way. The drummer could carpool with her and save her about 40 miles. On one hand I am glad, but I know how grueling a long drive can be to make practice.

We'll give her a go at least. Otherwise, we will keep looking.

You sleeping yet Joe? Or going to work?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Sorry for that. The drummer called with a possible candidate. The only problem is she is way across town and it would be a 50 mile trip one way. The drummer could carpool with her and save her about 40 miles. On one hand I am glad, but I know how grueling a long drive can be to make practice.
> 
> We'll give her a go at least. Otherwise, we will keep looking.
> 
> You sleeping yet Joe? Or going to work?



No. I'm on vacation this month so I'll be up whenever...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well Joe and Marty are off somewhere and I don't blame them. I came on with troubles and then I go and cut you guys off. Well, I had to take that call. I'm so tired now after eating. Time to get ready for bed. You all have a nice Sunday on me.

Bye-bye Josh.


----------



## solarburn

Ni-night!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You just caught me. I think Marty is off on some other thread.

What do you think about the latest news. That's a long drive.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You just caught me. I think Marty is off on some other thread.
> 
> What do you think about the latest news. That's a long drive.



I agree. Its early so see how things go...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well Joe and Marty are off somewhere and I don't blame them. I came on with troubles and then I go and cut you guys off. Well, I had to take that call. I'm so tired now after eating. Time to get ready for bed. You all have a nice Sunday on me.
> 
> Bye-bye Josh.



No worries Lisa. I'm still here!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

So that Danelectro OD is the cat's meow, huh? I went through it briefly. Has a special clipper diode. Probably real similar to the Blackstar HT-5.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> So that Danelectro OD is the cat's meow, huh? I went through it briefly. Has a special clipper diode. Probably real similar to the Blackstar HT-5.



Yeah and I can't find it anywhere now...

It really is transparent and keeps your amp's tone intact.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You just caught me. I think Marty is off on some other thread.
> 
> What do you think about the latest news. That's a long drive.



Sounds like a good sart! I say have a go at it and see what happens. Could turn out be better than before... Ya never know.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I just had talked to Joe. He must have thought I was signing off. I probably will. I'm wasted and I haven't even had my nightly shot of scotch.

Josh, did you know I have a shot of scotch every night? Right after brushing my teeth. It's like mouthwash, it kills germs and boy I sleep good too.


----------



## Fixr1984

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You just caught me. I think Marty is off on some other thread.
> 
> What do you think about the latest news. That's a long drive.




You know I dont think thats too bad. Getting a little far away but if the fit is right. My drummer lives 35 miles away from the rest of us and even in a snow storm he makes it and never complains cause we all work well together.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks, that's good to know.

Sorry the tube thread is in general discussion. I guess you could call it, "Preamp Tubes After Dark."


----------



## solarburn

I thought you were going to bed?

Oh yeah. I dig NOS tubes. There back on topic...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Good night. I'm toast. See you all later.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Ok... Never one to stay on task... You guys ever see these:

SURFPICK handmade exotic wooden guitar picks - best for recording or performing on acoustic or electric - custom made rare wood lignum vitae guitar pick. Cool. Surf Pick.​
I actually bought one about 3 or 4 weeks ago... Kinda spendy for just a pick, but I gotta say... I actually _really_ like it...

... I was quite surprised. It just "feels right".


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well I just had talked to Joe. He must have thought I was signing off. I probably will. I'm wasted and I haven't even had my nightly shot of scotch.
> 
> Josh, did you know I have a shot of scotch every night? Right after brushing my teeth. It's like mouthwash, it kills germs and boy I sleep good too.





I do like a nice chaser after my trazedone to help me sleep!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... Never one to stay on task... You guys ever see these:
> 
> SURFPICK handmade exotic wooden guitar picks - best for recording or performing on acoustic or electric - custom made rare wood lignum vitae guitar pick. Cool. Surf Pick.​
> I actually bought one about 3 or 4 weeks ago... Kinda spendy for just a pick, but I gotta say... I actually _really_ like it...
> 
> ... I was quite surprised. It just "feels right".




Judging from the clips the pick seems to give a mellow attack which for the music played is good. Can you get any bite out of these though? I would want some snap here and there too. Pretty cool though.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Judging from the clips the pick seems to give a mellow attack which for the music played is good. Can you get any bite out of these though? I would want some snap here and there too. Pretty cool though.



... Attack... What I've found it that is varies depending my amps settings. If you've got a "megadeth" sorta tone goin' on, you can get the attack, if on the treble pickup and your set for pretty bright tones on the amp... Again, In my opinion, more than enough attack. But otherwise... Your right, it does mellow out the attack in general.

I actually like it a lot because I tend to like a lot of "presence" on my distortion channels, and it gives me that definition and clarity w/out having overkill on the attack. Make sense?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Joe, I just spent an hour looking for a CTO-1. I found one in a triple pack with the vibe and tremolo pedals for $57. However, they have no phone number and they are up in Canada. I guess I could write them.

No one has them as they have all been replaced by the CTO-2. I haven't a clue as what the difference is except the 2 costs more.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, I just spent an hour looking for a CTO-1. I found one in a triple pack with the vibe and tremolo pedals for $57. However, they have no phone number and they are up in Canada. I guess I could write them.
> 
> No one has them as they have all been replaced by the CTO-2. I haven't a clue as what the difference is except the 2 costs more.



Bummer. I'll keep looking..

Version 2 sounds different but actually offers more adjustment. Problem is it gets away from the best part of version 1 which is the transparency.

The CTO-2, in addition to 3 clipping options now has an under the hood gain boost DIP switch that gives 6dB of gain. The boost is useful whether using the pedal for clean or overdriven tones.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah and I can't find it anywhere now...
> 
> It really is transparent and keeps your amp's tone intact.



Sounds like the Daddy-O overdrive without all the tone controls. I had a Daddy-O and it's a great OD pedal, too. I loved the tone but I ended up getting rid of it because it had an annoying habit of pulling in some AM radio station from Mexico.

This is the first chance I've had to get on here in awhile. We've had floods, tornadoes, straight-line winds and bad lightning all weekend. There's bad tornado damage all around us but we came out ok, just a couple of leaks. I put all the guitars in cases under the beds and would have put the amps under there if they'd have fit. It was that bad. Our satellite ISP has been out most of the time.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... This is the first chance I've had to get on here in awhile. We've had floods, tornadoes, straight-line winds and bad lightning all weekend. There's bad tornado damage all around us but we came out ok, just a couple of leaks. I put all the guitars in cases under the beds and would have put the amps under there if they'd have fit. It was that bad. Our satellite ISP has been out most of the time.



Glad to hear ya'll made it through the storm intact!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I was surfin' around youtube today, and saw a vid where the guy pulled two of the power tubes out of his 100 watt amp... Have you ever seen this done and is this _really_ a good idea? I dunno,, I'm not a real technical guy, but this seems like a bad idea...


----------



## MM54

I believe if you do that and then set the impedance to half of what it normally is it somehow works. Note that I THINK that's the case, I've seen it mentioned a million times on the forums.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hmm...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, this is one of the most asked questions on the forum. Yes, you can pull either the two outer tubes or the two inner tubes. If you are going to a 16 ohm cab, you set the output on the amp to half, or 8 ohms. This balances the load between the tubes and the OPT. Remember, you only loose 3dB and that ain't a whole bunch.

Some people actually think the amp looses half its power and this is a wrong assumption.

I know it would be nice if we all had a lot of $$$ to blow on an attenuator. That is really the only way to turn it up and keep it reasonable.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

See 2:40 for the tube pulling stuff.

YouTube - Bugera 1960 - Pimp My Plexi - FAQ on Attenuators & PULLING TUBES!!

The thought still makes me nervous. I love my TSL too much to risk wrecking it at this point...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, this is one of the most asked questions on the forum. Yes, you can pull either the two outer tubes or the two inner tubes. If you are going to a 16 ohm cab, you set the output on the amp to half, or 8 ohms. This balances the load between the tubes and the OPT. Remember, you only loose 3dB and that ain't a whole bunch.
> 
> Some people actually think the amp looses half its power and this is a wrong assumption.
> 
> I know it would be nice if we all had a lot of $$$ to blow on an attenuator. That is really the only way to turn it up and keep it reasonable.



Thanks Marty!

I would imagine that to a casual player, such as myself, the 3dB difference would be barely noticeable...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

While I'm buggin' ya'll about non-tube related stuff... Have ya'll seen these?

Eminence Speakers Helps Players Get Better Tone at Lower Volume : The Tone King | TheToneKing.com


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sounds like the Daddy-O overdrive without all the tone controls. I had a Daddy-O and it's a great OD pedal, too. I loved the tone but I ended up getting rid of it because it had an annoying habit of pulling in some AM radio station from Mexico.
> 
> This is the first chance I've had to get on here in awhile. We've had floods, tornadoes, straight-line winds and bad lightning all weekend. There's bad tornado damage all around us but we came out ok, just a couple of leaks. I put all the guitars in cases under the beds and would have put the amps under there if they'd have fit. It was that bad. Our satellite ISP has been out most of the time.



Well that sounds hairy as hell! Looks like you had quite the variety of nasty stuff thrown at ya. Glad you weathered it and your family's ok. Gear too hehe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I thought this was mildly interesting... Scroll down for the un-edited version... The NOS Mullard definitely kicks butt over the new Mesa Boogie tubes...

Can’t decide on Power Tubes? TTK has you covered! : The Tone King | TheToneKing.com


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man...Pat Travers just plain rocks. He was a favorite of mine and sometimes I forget about some of my true favorites. Just listened to seven of his hits and man, Pat Thrall and him just baked the solos. Oh, he wasn't a bad lead singer and keyboard player too. Love his voice.

Preamp tubes rule? Try a silver plate Mazda yet? Nice. How about a Lorenz? Very sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a trio of premium V1's. A Mazda Silver Plate marked under Raytheon and states, "Made in USA." Yeah, right, good one. Lorenz, made in West Germany and Mini-Watt, made in Brazil. The Mazda is closely balanced and is a smoker in V1. The Lorenz matches a Telefunken tone for tone and the Mini-Watt is a great overall tube. Joe, I think you would love it in the Monza.



Yes, they are really nice tubes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a trio of premium V1's. A Mazda Silver Plate marked under Raytheon and states, "Made in USA." Yeah, right, good one. Lorenz, made in West Germany and Mini-Watt, made in Brazil. The Mazda is closely balanced and is a smoker in V1. The Lorenz matches a Telefunken tone for tone and the Mini-Watt is a great overall tube. Joe, I think you would love it in the Monza.
> 
> 
> Yes, they are really nice tubes.



Which one, the Lorenz or the Mini-Watt in the Monza? That Mazda's shiny!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, when did you get a Mazda? Is that the French "Mazida" from China from 30 or 40 pages back? Give some details. I've read that they are one of the best if not the best high gain tone tubes ever and are great for guitar amps or hi-fi.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, when did you get a Mazda? Is that the French "Mazida" from China from 30 or 40 pages back? Give some details. I've read that they are one of the best if not the best high gain tone tubes ever and are great for guitar amps or hi-fi.



Really...? I want to know more about it too then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No this isn't the Mazda tube from a while back. I got this one about a week ago from Tina. I bought a quad of Telefunkens and I looked through all the tubes she had and I found the Mazda.

That history comes into play again. All the US companies bailed on tubes faster than the European countries. This led to American tube makers (who didn't have any tubes) buying from overseas. Imagine a Mazda marked as a Raytheon. Who would have thought that Raytheon would have bought from Mazda? The fact is, Raytheon probably got them for a great price. We all have seen examples of tubes from other countries marked as being made someplace else. This is a case of blatant false advertising. The tube was not made in the USA.

The silver plate Mazda is a 26-27. This gives it some extra oomph in V1. Up against a 29-30 RAY BP, it sounds really fantastic. Nice glassy highs and smooth all the way down. If you EQ the bass, it enhances the boost without getting messy. I also tried this up against a 31-30 Telefunken Smooth Plate. This was a very, very articulate sounding V1-V2. I've been secretly testing certain premium V1's matched with high gain premium tubes. Just remember, Josh has an Amperex rocket rated at 30-30. Who's to say a Telefunken matched up against a high gain Amperex isn't going to result in a primo sound?

On the other side of the coin is the guy on EBAY that is selling RAY BP and listing an excerpt out of a tube magazine that is raving about RAY BP's and claiming they are as good as a Telefunken. This goes back to my testing many moons ago, but contained in this thread. I tried my amp with two, three and four RAY BP's. Here again, I stated that four BP's were too much, but actually, a RAY BP in V1 matched up against say a high gain Mullard was a great rock tone. Also, in a 900DR, the only tube that is in the preamp signal is V1 and I found out that a RAY BP in a 900DR is the best sounding tube.

The point is, a RAY BP is a good V1. Of course we all use high gain one's for V2. And I have found some pretty rocking tones by using different tubes in V2 than a RAY BP.

Joe-I have Mini-Watt's in various strength's. They are around 25 and 26, such as a 26-24. Just a really good tone. However, all three of the above tubes have good tone, as they are after all primo tubes.


----------



## cudamax2343

4,285 replies in this post so far. Wow


----------



## wkcchampion

Hi guys... gimme some opinions on these preamp tubes for the rack poweramp EL34 50/50 please:
ECC81: Mullard
ECC83: Harma Retro, Harma Standard or JJ/Tesla

Thx


----------



## dave999z

wkcchampion said:


> Hi guys... gimme some opinions on these preamp tubes for the rack poweramp EL34 50/50 please:
> ECC81: Mullard
> ECC83: Harma Retro, Harma Standard or JJ/Tesla
> 
> Thx



For the 12AT7 phase inverter position, I put a NOS Mullard CV4024 on each side of my EL34 50/50. I just can't recommend it enough. I'm sure your mileage will very depending on the rest of your set up, but it added a depth and control that is fantastic. It is so articulate, yet smooth and under control. Sounds beautiful. (I now know what people mean when they say the phase inverter may be your most important tube.) I got them here ($30 each)...

NOS Mullard CV4024 (12AT7) | Catalog's Front Page | kcanostubes.com

I'm waiting on Marty to recommend a good NOS 12AX7 driver for each side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wkcchampion said:


> Hi guys... gimme some opinions on these preamp tubes for the rack poweramp EL34 50/50 please:
> ECC81: Mullard
> ECC83: Harma Retro, Harma Standard or JJ/Tesla
> 
> Thx



Dave is running a similar rig and he really likes the ECC81/12AT7. Were you planning on using them in the phase inverter slot?

I would go with the Harma tubes over the JJ. Of course in a rack mount amp, the preamp tubes are more like V3 and V4 in a conventional head like a DSL. The tubes you use in your preamp are the critical tubes. If you are looking at current production tubes, I would go with EH tubes. They are cheap and they work well in V3/V4 slots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, make sure you put your 1,000 post here on the tube thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dig this mind blower. How's this for a claim that NOS is better? Got any AC's?



> Mazda of the UK produced a range of tubes for use in AC powered domestic receivers and other general purposes in around 1935 (the AC/ range). The British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) used to maintain scrupulous records of equipment maintenance including the achieved life of all tubes. Their records show that a Mazda AC/HL (a triode) was removed from its equipment having achieved over 250,000 hours of service. When tested, the tube performed to the manufacturer's specification. The BBC did not claim any record for this as this order of longevity of life was typical for this range of tubes. Repair shops stocked up on spares to meet the anticipated demand for replacement tubes, but few were ever required. Any AC/ series tube encountered today is most likely unused (and may well be in its original carton).



1935. It was a very good year for tubes and tube quality, whether UK, European or USA. I think the USA tubes produced up till the Korean War had very high standards. However, most of the early 50's tubes have already been bought and used up.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, make sure you put your 1,000 post here on the tube thread.



Dayum, that snuck up on me. Will do


----------



## MM54

Is it worth the extra couple bucks on tube depot to get a tung sol for v1 of my amp in 'high gain'?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it's worth a couple of extra bucks. It's no different than any other CP Tung-Sol except that it tests a little stronger. Just don't fall for any of the cryogenic-treated gold pin crap.


----------



## MM54

Alright, thanks.

The cork always smells better on the other side of the fence


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dig this mind blower. How's this for a claim that NOS is better? Got any AC's?
> 
> 
> 
> 1935. It was a very good year for tubes and tube quality, whether UK, European or USA. I think the USA tubes produced up till the Korean War had very high standards. However, most of the early 50's tubes have already been bought and used up.



That's a pretty strong testimonial for NOS tubes. I'd have to say I fully concur...

Once you go NOS, the rest can get lost!​


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I hope my tubes last that long.

Hello everyone.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Marty... How ya doin' man?

I was thinkin' that since Jon is gonna have my TSL for a bit, while he does the mods... Perhaps now is a good time to try rolling something good into my other amp (Bugera 333... I know... Shameful). You know what I've got in my arsenal, so what do you think would be a good line up to try in this critter?















The line up that is currently in the TSL will likely stay there, but I am gonna postpone that decision until after the mods are complete... That being said... Suggestions ya'll? <Manual>


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I hope my tubes last that long.
> 
> Hello everyone.



No doubt!


----------



## thrawn86

What up Lisa? Haven't see you in a bit.

Hey Josh......no shame in rolling tubes in something else.....I've even thought about putting a NOS tube in my lil' Vox Valvetronix to see what she'd do. Now THAT is shameful.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I hope my tubes last that long.
> 
> Hello everyone.



Hi Lisa!


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> What up Lisa? Haven't see you in a bit.
> 
> Hey Josh......no shame in rolling tubes in something else.....I've even thought about putting a NOS tube in my lil' Vox Valvetronix to see what she'd do. Now THAT is shameful.



I've rolled them in my HT dual pedal hehe. I have 3 tube amps though that I roll them in.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I hope my tubes last that long.
> 
> Hello everyone.





thrawn86 said:


> What up Lisa? Haven't see you in a bit...



Yeah! How ya doin' Lisa? Been a wee bit since we've seen ya...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've rolled them in my HT dual pedal hehe. I have 3 tube amps though that I roll them in.





thrawn86 said:


> ...
> 
> Hey Josh......no shame in rolling tubes in something else.....I've even thought about putting a NOS tube in my lil' Vox Valvetronix to see what she'd do. Now THAT is shameful.



Ok... My shame is gone!  Thanks guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, I was looking at your big tube pictures and those labels look NOS. Who did you buy them from? That's some nice glass.

Hey, that 333 ain't a bad amp...if it doesn't break. That new Bugera is something else. A shit load of features not seen on an amp in that price range and here I am looking at getting a 2204.


----------



## thrawn86

Don't give in to the Dark Side Marty! Keep your eyes on the 2204. There's actually one for sale in my hometown, but it was molested by Mesa (for some damn reason).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, the idea of a 1959 and a hot rodded 2204 in the same package is really appealing to me.


----------



## core

2 2 0 4 !


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dave is running a similar rig and he really likes the ECC81/12AT7. Were you planning on using them in the phase inverter slot?
> 
> I would go with the Harma tubes over the JJ. Of course in a rack mount amp, the preamp tubes are more like V3 and V4 in a conventional head like a DSL. The tubes you use in your preamp are the critical tubes. If you are looking at current production tubes, I would go with EH tubes. They are cheap and they work well in V3/V4 slots.



Well, each monobloc of the 50/50 carries one ECC81 and one ECC83, so I think that the 81 is for the phase inverter.
ECC81 is gonna be Mullard Cryo, that's final.
So, would u usggest an EH ECC83 over an Harma Retro or Standard ECC83?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, I was looking at your big tube pictures and those labels look NOS. Who did you buy them from? That's some nice glass.



I know a guy who's pretty knowledgeable when it comes to NOS. You might know him... I think he lives down around the KC area... But if you run into him, don't tell him you know me, I think I owe him some money...



MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, that 333 ain't a bad amp...if it doesn't break. That new Bugera is something else. A shit load of features not seen on an amp in that price range and here I am looking at getting a 2204.



Yeah... Tone-wise & feature-wise, nothing else in the price range (I got this one for $400) even comes close. I guess we'll see about the reliability, but so far, so good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wkcchampion said:


> Well, each monobloc of the 50/50 carries one ECC81 and one ECC83, so I think that the 81 is for the phase inverter.
> ECC81 is gonna be Mullard Cryo, that's final.
> So, would u usggest an EH ECC83 over an Harma Retro or Standard ECC83?



The reason I always recommend the EH in V3 and V4 is because you are not going to get a lot of tone shaping. If anything, it is best to run a high gain 12AX7 in the PI instead of the 12AT7. This opens the amp up and it sounds better.

However, a lot of people have amps with 12AT7's (like many Fenders). If you think of it like water running in a hose to your power tubes, a 12AT7's stream is smaller than a 12AX7 high gain. They can be interchanged, but it is a matter of personal taste.

I'm not quite sold on the cyro process. I wish that people who use them would post a report. Maybe I'll buy some to try out. I always say use the best tubes you can afford. So for V4, I would pick the Harma Retro. 

I don't know how much better it would sound over a Tung-Sol? I would like to know that. And you have to look at the price of a cyro tube and wonder if it is giving you a big bang for your bucks?

If you get the cyro tubes, please post a small write up about them.


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you get the cyro tubes, please post a small write up about them.



I did a comparison months ago between Mesa tubes and TAD cryo tubes in the JMP-1.

So would you recommend a high gain ECC83 in place of the ECC81 (Mullard cryo)? If so, what?


----------



## MartyStrat54

wkcchampion said:


> I did a comparison months ago between Mesa tubes and TAD cryo tubes in the JMP-1.
> 
> So would you recommend a high gain ECC83 in place of the ECC81 (Mullard cryo)? If so, what?



I don't know what your tube prices are like, but if you are wanting the cyro Mullard, I say get it and then spend a little extra for an EH high gain. (They are $12 in the USA from Tube Depot.) Do a swap test and see which one you like.

There are a lot of 12AX7 choices. In the gain stages, I get real picky about the tubes I use. In V3 (if it is part of the tone stack) a good tube is nice, but not exactly necessary. However, the PI slot play a big role in how the signal hits the power tubes. If you are not a high gain player, then the 12AT7 will probably be okay. Personally, I don't like to put a limiting device in an important circuit. That's why you have gain and volume controls.

As I said, some amp manufacturers used a 12AT7 in the PI, but these were not high gain amps. Their whole signature sound was clean, bell-like highs and chimey mids. Not really a hard rock amp, because they didn't have the necessary gain to do hard rock or metal. Metal players don't use Fenders.


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> I don't know what your tube prices are like, but if you are wanting the cyro Mullard, I say get it and then spend a little extra for an EH high gain. (They are $12 in the USA from Tube Depot.) Do a swap test and see which one you like.
> 
> There are a lot of 12AX7 choices. In the gain stages, I get real picky about the tubes I use. In V3 (if it is part of the tone stack) a good tube is nice, but not exactly necessary. However, the PI slot play a big role in how the signal hits the power tubes. If you are not a high gain player, then the 12AT7 will probably be okay. Personally, I don't like to put a limiting device in an important circuit. That's why you have gain and volume controls.
> 
> As I said, some amp manufacturers used a 12AT7 in the PI, but these were not high gain amps. Their whole signature sound was clean, bell-like highs and chimey mids. Not really a hard rock amp, because they didn't have the necessary gain to do hard rock or metal. Metal players don't use Fenders.



Pffff the truth is that the sound influence that valves do is in the order of 1-3%, so I won't spend that much and only buy new tubes when the old ones require replacement. There are several other factor which influences the sound much more (hands most, then speakers/cab and microphones) so, once in the mix, the difference will surely not be noticeable.

Obviously things change if valves are worn and/or bias is set incorrectly, but this is another story. My statement above was obviously regarding a healthy amp.

And regarding gain: even what u call "high gain" bands record with not that much gain, layering guitars with different mics. The clips I made with the JMP-1 and 50/50 on my website were recorded with Gain=1 and double-tracking  
Don't u believe me? Hear, for example, "Indestructible" by Disturbed. Much less gain that u would expect!


----------



## dave999z

i don't think you're going to get much traction in this thread arguing that tubes don't matter. 

but Marty, the 12AT7 may not be as limiting as you think in the PI slot, at least depending on the amp. as i said i've got NOS Mullard CV4024 in there now (another factor is probably that not all 12AT7s are created equal), and the amp absolutely fu**ing BURNS!!! there is no shortage of gain whatsoever. i don't want or need more gain.

that said, i am more in the dark than you, and someday i'll try a 12AX7 in the PI slot and report back. if it indeed opens up the sound, then i'll be buying more tubes off you!


----------



## ken361

dave999z said:


> i don't think you're going to get much traction in this thread arguing that tubes don't matter.
> 
> but Marty, the 12AT7 may not be as limiting as you think in the PI slot, at least depending on the amp. as i said i've got NOS Mullard CV4024 in there now (another factor is probably that not all 12AT7s are created equal), and the amp absolutely fu**ing BURNS!!! there is no shortage of gain whatsoever. i don't want or need more gain.
> 
> that said, i am more in the dark than you, and someday i'll try a 12AX7 in the PI slot and report back. if it indeed opens up the sound, then i'll be buying more tubes off you!


if you go with current production try a Sovtek lps in the PI they work pretty well there


----------



## RiverRatt

dave999z said:


> i don't think you're going to get much traction in this thread arguing that tubes don't matter.



Really. And all this time, hands make more difference than tubes. You know, I think he's stumbled onto where Line6 went wrong... they had the mic and cabinet simulators already, but they need to add about 36 hand models!!! You know you can't play Crossroads and have it sound more than 96 to 99% exactly like the recording without Eric's Hand Model 2.0. (by the way, I made those percentages up....).

Seriously, 1 to 3%? Are you talking about how your amp sounds in the final mix?


----------



## wkcchampion

RiverRatt said:


> Seriously, 1 to 3%? Are you talking about how your amp sounds in the final mix?



Exactly. Record the same part with 12ax7 X and 12ax7 Y, anything else equal, and place the track in the mix. The difference between them will be of that approximate amount. Slight.
Or with EL34 X and EL34 Y. There are factors which contribute much more, in descending order: hands, miking, speakers and others.

If u don't believe I'll make tests. I'll probably make a shootout of Svetlana EL34s VS EH 6CA7s.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

wkcchampion said:


> Exactly. Record the same part with 12ax7 X and 12ax7 Y, anything else equal, and place the track in the mix. The difference between them will be of that approximate amount. Slight.
> Or with EL34 X and EL34 Y. There are factors which contribute much more, in descending order: hands, miking, speakers and others.
> 
> If u don't believe I'll make tests. I'll probably make a shootout of Svetlana EL34s VS EH 6CA7s.



No offense, but I'm havin' trouble buyin this'. 

Since I can't borrow Clapton's hands to play "Sunshine of Your Love", then by all rights I should sound nothing like him when I plug in and play. Right? Well, I gurantee you that no matter how much like him I can play, it ain't gonna sound the same on a Fender, heck, it won't sound the same on an old Plexi or Bluesbreaker if I have some 12AT7's or only some new JJ's in there... 

I agree, it's your hands and your heart that give whatever you're playing real character, but it's the guitar, the amp, and the tubes that give you the right tools to express that character. And I can say for a certainty, the tubes that I've ran in my Marshall have made not only a difference in my sound, but a profound difference in my creative spark and ability to express myself when I'm playing.

Anyhoo... Again, no offense intended, I'm just adding my two cents. Either way... Rock on!


----------



## ken361

Different tubes 12ax7's will sound similar but performance and pick attack and feel of the strings when plucking make a difference period!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I believe you. I just don't see why you came in here and asked for advice on tubes and then told us that it didn't matter because you can't hear a difference. It sounds like you already have all the answers.

FWIW, your argument sounds exactly like what the Line6 crowd has been saying all along - that you can't tell the difference between a Line6 amp model and the real thing when it's mixed down. 

All of what you mention are important things as far as recording a live amp goes - I'd say that mic placement is probably top on the list - but we aren't arguing about recording techniques. There's no way to fit tubes into that. A good sound engineer could track Eddie Van Halen farting into a tin can and make it sound musical. Likewise, you could start with a shitty amp tone and tweak it and layer it and blur it until it sounds thick as hell. Take someone who records dry or damn near to it like Tom Petty and Mike Campbell, or Brad Paisley, or any number of others, and if you have an ear you can hear a lot more than hands, mic and cabs


----------



## joshuaaewallen

In the end equation... It's everything combined that makes your sound. But to say any one link in the chain makes no difference at all just doesn't make any sense.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Looks like Groove Tubes will do anything to sell more tubes...look at this ad i found


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Looks like Groove Tubes will do anything to sell more tubes...look at this ad i found...



Ha! I knew there was something missing in my shredding!


----------



## ken361

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Looks like Groove Tubes will do anything to sell more tubes...look at this ad i found


whaaaat? serious?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I wonder if I can get some of that patented "shred oil" for my bridge, my neck, my tuners, the controls on my amps...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Maybe it'll be good to rub some Shred Oil on my aching back, so that I can shred w/ my guitar strapped to my back for hours and hours.

Hmm... I should look into this.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

joshuaaewallen said:


> I wonder if I can get some of that patented "shred oil" for my bridge, my neck, my tuners, the controls on my amps...



Sure you can.....i even read if you added 3 drops to your tank you could get another 50 miles per gallon in a mid size car


----------



## wkcchampion

I think I've been misunderstood.
I ask for advice to know others' opinion on tubes I haven't tried yet. Tha's always interesting.
I just warned not to hope for "miracles" whether using a tube of one brand instead of another, as there are other factors which influence more on the sound. Just this! Peace 
Of course on the same amp+cabinet/rig, with the same guitar and settings. If u think it's wrong, let's hear some comparison clips that prove it.


----------



## rjohns1

joshuaaewallen said:


> I wonder if I can get some of that patented "shred oil" for my bridge, my neck, my tuners, the controls on my amps...



http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/14112-found-holy-grail-secret-weapon.html

Why yes, Yes you can!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> No, I believe you. I just don't see why you came in here and asked for advice on tubes and then told us that it didn't matter because you can't hear a difference. It sounds like you already have all the answers.



Yes, I took the time to address your questions and give you an opinion on the possible tubes you wanted to try and basically it was a set up. You came on this thread and decided to pull one of your stunts. (Yes, you have done others.) It's hard to figure you out. Most of the time you get under people's skin with the comments you make.

If tubes didn't make a difference, then the HiFi crowd would all be using JJ's. As it is, 80 percent of them still use NOS. NOS is starting to dry up and within the next five years there will be a "forced" swing over to more CP usage. Until then, I'll keep my Telefunken or Amperex in V1 and my Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and pretend I don't hear any difference over an EH and JJ. 

I can't tell you to move on, but if you decide to hang around it has already been said, you won't get a lot of kind words if you continue with this "experiment."

BTW-I don't buy into the, "you misunderstood me" bit. I think you knew exactly what you were doing or else you wouldn't have said the things you did.


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, I took the time to address your questions and give you an opinion on the possible tubes you wanted to try and basically it was a set up. You came on this thread and decided to pull one of your stunts. (Yes, you have done others.) It's hard to figure you out. Most of the time you get under people's skin with the comments you make.
> 
> If tubes didn't make a difference, then the HiFi crowd would all be using JJ's. As it is, 80 percent of them still use NOS. NOS is starting to dry up and within the next five years there will be a "forced" swing over to more CP usage. Until then, I'll keep my Telefunken or Amperex in V1 and my Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and pretend I don't hear any difference over an EH and JJ.
> 
> I can't tell you to move on, but if you decide to hang around it has already been said, you won't get a lot of kind words if you continue with this "experiment."
> 
> BTW-I don't buy into the, "you misunderstood me" bit. I think you knew exactly what you were doing or else you wouldn't have said the things you did.



The problem is that, in general, I say my opinions straightforward and provide proof to fuel my arguments. People don't like to be forced to admit they are wrong even if they are and they know it (Schopenhauer, do u remember him?).
However, this is not the case. I just said a simple opinion and you started all this fire. And if u think I'm wrong - post clips or objective proof to demonstrate that. 
I don't want to argue all the time.. cool down guys


----------



## wkcchampion

MartyStrat54 said:


> From "New Recording Of Mine" thread. wkcchampion got into it over there with his comments on metal and then tried to use his poor English as a cover. Here is how it got answered.



THIS IS FALSE.
The guy answered with this 'cos he couldn't prove I was wrong. Read the thread and you'll read it.
It's easy to say BS to my statements but not say why. Puah. Testify why it's BS, otherwise the BS is you.


----------



## jcmjmp

wkcchampion said:


> I did a comparison months ago between Mesa tubes and TAD cryo tubes in the JMP-1.
> 
> So would you recommend a high gain ECC83 in place of the ECC81 (Mullard cryo)? If so, what?



Cryo is a load of BS Snake Oil and Fairy Dust. 

Bottom line - its hype. You never tested the same tube with/without the cryo treatment.


----------



## jcmjmp

wkcchampion said:


> Exactly. Record the same part with 12ax7 X and 12ax7 Y, anything else equal, and place the track in the mix. The difference between them will be of that approximate amount. Slight.
> Or with EL34 X and EL34 Y. There are factors which contribute much more, in descending order: hands, miking, speakers and others.
> 
> If u don't believe I'll make tests. I'll probably make a shootout of Svetlana EL34s VS EH 6CA7s.



1-3%? You're just posting random numbers. Where's your scientific proof of this?

Just crank up a SED =C= EL34 and do the same with a 6CA7 (or even a Svetlana EL34). The difference is definitely noticeable, and is more than you'd think.


----------



## wkcchampion

jcmjmp said:


> Cryo is a load of BS Snake Oil and Fairy Dust.
> 
> Bottom line - its hype. You never tested the same tube with/without the cryo treatment.



That's true. But on both VOX and Marshall amps I like the sound more with the Cryo tubes I have on, and so do some people I know. Well perhaps I have been lucky, dunno. Als ryo tubes seem to be more consistent in their lfie, but don't take thsi for granted as tubes are all different.
And I don't have only Cryo tubes. The EH 6CA7s are not Cryo treated.


----------



## wkcchampion

jcmjmp said:


> 1-3%? You're just posting random numbers. Where's your scientific proof of this?
> 
> Just crank up a SED =C= EL34 and do the same with a 6CA7 (or even a Svetlana EL34). The difference is definitely noticeable, and is more than you'd think.



Oh well I just said that to give an idea of the factor compared to others like hands, speakers etc.
I'll post a test soon. Svetlana =C= VS EH 6CA7. We'll see


----------



## joshuaaewallen

rjohns1 said:


> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/14112-found-holy-grail-secret-weapon.html
> 
> Why yes, Yes you can!




I love it! Next time your by the shredder can you pick me up a bottle?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well... As much as I'd ever hate to agree w/ anyone on this thread... ... Marty, jcmjmp, & ken361 are all spot on. This argument is total BS, the ears don't lie.



wkcchampion said:


> Oh well I just said that to give an idea of the factor compared to others like hands, speakers etc.
> I'll post a test soon. Svetlana =C= VS EH 6CA7. We'll see





wkcchampion said:


> That's true. But on both VOX and Marshall amps I like the sound more with the Cryo tubes I have on, and so do some people I know. Well perhaps I have been lucky, dunno. Als ryo tubes seem to be more consistent in their lfie, but don't take thsi for granted as tubes are all different.
> And I don't have only Cryo tubes. The EH 6CA7s are not Cryo treated.





wkcchampion said:


> THIS IS FALSE.
> The guy answered with this 'cos he couldn't prove I was wrong. Read the thread and you'll read it.
> It's easy to say BS to my statements but not say why. Puah. Testify why it's BS, otherwise the BS is you.





wkcchampion said:


> The problem is that, in general, I say my opinions straightforward and provide proof to fuel my arguments. People don't like to be forced to admit they are wrong even if they are and they know it (Schopenhauer, do u remember him?).
> However, this is not the case. I just said a simple opinion and you started all this fire. And if u think I'm wrong - post clips or objective proof to demonstrate that.
> I don't want to argue all the time.. cool down guys





MartyStrat54 said:


> From "New Recording Of Mine" thread. wkcchampion got into it over there with his comments on metal and then tried to use his poor English as a cover. Here is how it got answered.


----------



## wkcchampion

I'll make the EL34 VS 6CA7 comparison clip tomorrow - and we'll see.
I already made one with the JMP-1 (Mesa VS Cryo TAD 12AX7) and the difference was slight.

I remember when users claimed that only the speakers influenced on the sound, and not the cabinet design - and I promptly silenced them the same way. Let's see if I am right this time too. Tomorrow or Sunday you'll have your clips


----------



## jcmjmp

wkcchampion said:


> I'll make the EL34 VS 6CA7 comparison clip tomorrow - and we'll see.
> I already made one with the JMP-1 (Mesa VS Cryo TAD 12AX7) and the difference was slight.
> 
> I remember when users claimed that only the speakers influenced on the sound, and not the cabinet design - and I promptly silenced them the same way. Let's see if I am right this time too. Tomorrow or Sunday you'll have your clips



Cab size influences sound for sure.

no one ever said that all tubes sound drastictly different... 

The Mesa and TAD tubes are both Chinese tubes. They'll sound identical. the difference could be due to variance in mfg process where one tube may have more gain that the other i.e. 90 vs 110. You'd need to measure the actual gain of the tube to make sure you're comparing the same thing.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

wkcchampion said:


> I'll make the EL34 VS 6CA7 comparison clip tomorrow - and we'll see.
> I already made one with the JMP-1 (Mesa VS Cryo TAD 12AX7) and the difference was slight.
> 
> I remember when users claimed that only the speakers influenced on the sound, and not the cabinet design - and I promptly silenced them the same way. Let's see if I am right this time too. Tomorrow or Sunday you'll have your clips



will they sound like cheap beer commercials too?


----------



## wkcchampion

jcmjmp said:


> The Mesa and TAD tubes are both Chinese tubes. They'll sound identical. the difference could be due to variance in mfg process where one tube may have more gain that the other i.e. 90 vs 110. You'd need to measure the actual gain of the tube to make sure you're comparing the same thing.



Interesting, interesting... Grrrrrr a lot of tubes are completely covered of marketing hype, darn it. Like relabeling and so on. Umpf this messes me up 

Then my statement of the 1-3%... may be due to the fact that I always sued similar or relabeled tubes like in this case, thinking to use really different ubes instead? It's possible.


----------



## solarburn

Svetlana doesn't make Winged C any more. Been awhile I don't know why I keep seeing guys call Winged C's Svetlana's. The current Svetlana's suck. Too cutting and mid heavy in my DSL. Hated them. Winged C's by SED are good though.

There will be a pretty significant difference between a 6CA7 and a Svetlana EL34. One will lack lowend and be sharp and the other will kill a dragon. You guess which one hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wkcchampion said:


> Pffff the truth is that the sound influence that valves do is in the order of 1-3%, so I won't spend that much and only buy new tubes when the old ones require replacement. There are several other factor which influences the sound much more (hands most, then speakers/cab and microphones) so, once in the mix, the difference will surely not be noticeable.
> 
> Obviously things change if valves are worn and/or bias is set incorrectly, but this is another story. My statement above was obviously regarding a healthy amp.
> 
> And regarding gain: even what u call "high gain" bands record with not that much gain, layering guitars with different mics. The clips I made with the JMP-1 and 50/50 on my website were recorded with Gain=1 and double-tracking
> Don't u believe me? Hear, for example, "Indestructible" by Disturbed. Much less gain that u would expect!



This is what I don't understand. Someone comes on here wanting "proof" about tube performance and then makes untested comments that have no truth to them. Of course, this is perfectly alright "for him."

I mean if I said using Raytheon Black Plates in V1 will give you a 6dB gain over any other tube and I couldn't back it up, I'd get laughed off the forum.

Yet, here we have someone who just popped some numbers out of his head without any testing and this goes directly against what he was expecting from us. He wants hard clad scientific proof from us, but yet it is completely okay for him to conjure up fictitious numbers that don't relate to anything at all. "One to three percent." You might as well said, "two to seven percent" or "twelve to seventy-eight percent." Magical numbers with no meaning whatsoever.

And I agree with JCMJMP. I told you that I wasn't completely sold on cyro tubes. Funny, you don't want to believe in the fact that tubes have their own tonality, but yet you are willing to buy into this whole cyro thing and the "enhanced" tonality you get by freezing a tube. Do you see how foolish that is?

I gave you some good solid advice and then you threw it back at me with your untested rhetoric. It's not a good way to make friends. There are other ways that this could have been addressed. To be blunt: I'm frickin' pissed.

And I want to say something about recording with a JMP-1. Please don't try to tell me that you can't hear tonal differences in a JMP-1 when you swap tubes. At the recording level, on an individual track, experimenting with different preamp tubes will cause a change in the tonality of the unit.

IF YOU CAN'T HEAR THESE CHANGES, THEN YOU HAVE A HEARING PROBLEM.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is what I don't understand. Someone comes on here wanting "proof" about tube performance and then makes untested comments that have no truth to them. Of course, this is perfectly alright "for him."
> 
> I mean if I said using Raytheon Black Plates in V1 will give you a 6dB gain over any other tube and I couldn't back it up, I'd get laughed off the forum.
> 
> Yet, here we have someone who just popped some numbers out of his head without any testing and this goes directly against what he was expecting from us. He wants hard clad scientific proof from us, but yet it is completely okay for him to conjure up fictitious numbers that don't relate to anything at all. "One to three percent." You might as well said, "two to seven percent" or "twelve to seventy-eight percent." Magical numbers with no meaning whatsoever.
> 
> And I agree with JCMJMP. I told you that I wasn't completely sold on cyro tubes. Funny, you don't want to believe in the fact that tubes have their own tonality, but yet you are willing to buy into this whole cyro thing and the "enhanced" tonality you get by freezing a tube. Do you see how foolish that is?
> 
> I gave you some good solid advice and then you threw it back at me with your untested rhetoric. It's not a good way to make friends. There are other ways that this could have been addressed. To be blunt: I'm frickin' pissed.
> 
> And I want to say something about recording with a JMP-1. Please don't try to tell me that you can't hear tonal differences in a JMP-1 when you swap tubes. At the recording level, on an individual track, experimenting with different preamp tubes will cause a change in the tonality of the unit.
> 
> IF YOU CAN'T HEAR THESE CHANGES, THEN YOU HAVE A HEARING PROBLEM.




What?


----------



## MartyStrat54

dave999z said:


> i don't think you're going to get much traction in this thread arguing that tubes don't matter.
> 
> but Marty, the 12AT7 may not be as limiting as you think in the PI slot, at least depending on the amp. as i said i've got NOS Mullard CV4024 in there now (another factor is probably that not all 12AT7s are created equal), and the amp absolutely fu**ing BURNS!!! there is no shortage of gain whatsoever. i don't want or need more gain.
> 
> that said, i am more in the dark than you, and someday i'll try a 12AX7 in the PI slot and report back. if it indeed opens up the sound, then i'll be buying more tubes off you!



I do not have any flying time with your setup. Let me put it this way. Since the amp was designed with a 12AT7 for the PI, that can make all the difference in the world. I don't doubt that it kicks ass. For all I know, a 12AX7 might not sound right, because the PI circuitry is designed specifically for a 12AT7.

Joey Voltage and Jon Wilder posted a while back on another thread about the 12AT7, 5751, and 12AX7. These tubes are 60, 70 and 100mu of gain respectively. However, that gain gets all shot to hell once it goes into the actual circuit. Some amps are designed to limit the gain in stage 1 to say 40. So much for a high gain 12AX7 in that slot. Also, the internal specs of the tubes dictate how it will react with a preamp or driver circuit. What Joey and Jon stated was that because of how a 12AT7 is designed, it could have almost the gain as a 12AX7 in certain circuits.

So that is why I say, "If the amp came with a 12AT7, it was designed for one." Can you try a 12AX7? Sure, it won't hurt anything, but the 12AT7 may sound better.

And one final thing. The PI is not a tone slot. A 12AT7 is not really what you would call a flavor tube, but it doesn't need to be in the PI slot. Some people try a 12AT7 in V1 and to me, that is not a good way to go. A 5751 has some flavor in it, but it was designed to be low noise and transparent. A 5751 make a good PI tube in a lot of amps. There again, going by what Joey and Jon stated, the 5751 could perform very close to a 12AX7 in the PI circuit. My amps all came with 12AX7's and I have found after a full year of testing that a high gain 12AX7 in V4 (or PI slot) opens up the amp and this is something that as an individual I enjoy.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys!

I know this belongs in the Power Tubes section...

But have you seen this !

Western Electric WE300B Vintage 300B Matched Pair 1950s - eBay (item 180501331888 end time May-07-10 19:00:45 PDT)


----------



## jcmjmp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Svetlana doesn't make Winged C any more. Been awhile I don't know why I keep seeing guys call Winged C's Svetlana's. The current Svetlana's suck. Too cutting and mid heavy in my DSL. Hated them. Winged C's by SED are good though.
> 
> There will be a pretty significant difference between a 6CA7 and a Svetlana EL34. One will lack lowend and be sharp and the other will kill a dragon. You guess which one hehe.



Solar - In Europe, the Svetlana brand name belongs to SED. The Svetlana name got stolen in the North American market, which is why they market the real St. Petersburg EL34 under the SED =C= name.

I learned this the hard way. I bought some Svetlana EL34s 2 yrs ago thinking they were the same as the ones I originally had. When I put them in my DSL, they were just deceiving. With a little research, I learned that they were not real Svetlanas from St Petersburg. What a freakin' ripoff.

In North America, you need to get the SED =C=, not the Svetlana.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, this is all part of the devious New Sensor company. American based and headed by I believe Mike Matthews, they control almost all Russian tube production. BTW-SED stands for Svetlana Electronic Devices. Ironic isn't it?

I could say a lot of bad things about them, but then I have to look at what all they are up against. One of the reasons tube making is almost extinct in North America is because of EPA regulations. This has become a global battle and New Sensor has to deal with this on a daily basis. Then there is dishonest employees stealing tubes for the black market and employee unrest. One of the Sovtek plants was set on fire, an act of arson.

Being in the tube business is almost like being a secret agent. You have to be good at a lot of things.

Looking at the fluctuation in the NOS market right now, I would say that the sink is almost drained of water and the end will be here sooner than expected. Prices have spiked on many of the tubes and now I am seeing 500 to 600 for a quad set of used Mullard xf2 EL34's. One year ago, they were $250. I sure it is just a matter of time before I am forced to quit selling tubes. My prices have been at least $20 cheaper than some of the other places.

I haven't seen much improvement over say a 2005 Tung-Sol and a 2010 Tung-Sol. I did a complete write up on this and to be brief, a lot has to do with amp manufacturers. Most companies have shifted their designs so that they work with current production tubes. So it isn't a matter of improving tubes. It's a matter of whether or not you can get a tube order filled.

Personally, I got enough tubes to last me a long time, but I do hope that a surge in technology hits the tube manufacturers and better tubes are the end result.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ratt-I sent you a PM about the 6L6 tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

wkcchampion said:


> The problem is that, in general, I say my opinions straightforward and provide proof to fuel my arguments. People don't like to be forced to admit they are wrong even if they are and they know it (Schopenhauer, do u remember him?).
> However, this is not the case. I just said a simple opinion and you started all this fire. And if u think I'm wrong - post clips or objective proof to demonstrate that.
> I don't want to argue all the time.. cool down guys



I don't particularly want to argue either, but frankly you state your opinions in a pompous, abrasive manner that invites argument. 

We all respect each other's opinions in regard to preamp tubes in this thread for the most part, and don't need to record sound clips to prove or disprove our claims as to the particular tonal qualities (or lack thereof) of different tubes. If we run across a NOS or CP tube that sounds good, we share that here. If we need to prove it, we've exchanged tubes several times so that the other person can make up their own mind with their own equipment in their own ideal setting. Guess what.... we agree about 99% of the time. That's all the proof I need.

We all came into this thread with preconceived notions that we've long since abandoned, and because we were open-minded and willing to learn we have all improved our knowledge as well as our tone. I know I can be a smartass and sometimes I'm too quick to judge, but I'm through arguing. I'll be glad to discuss the merits and drawbacks of different tubes with you, but if you honestly can't hear the difference between a Telefunken ECC83 smooth plate and a frozen Chinese tube, we have nothing to talk about.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ratt-I sent you a PM about the 6L6 tube.



Thanks, Marty! Hey, did you catch number 1,000???


----------



## Marshall Mann

wkcchampion said:


> Pffff the truth is that the sound influence that valves do is in the order of 1-3%, so I won't spend that much and only buy new tubes when the old ones require replacement. There are several other factor which influences the sound much more (hands most, then speakers/cab and microphones) so, once in the mix, the difference will surely not be noticeable.
> 
> Obviously things change if valves are worn and/or bias is set incorrectly, but this is another story. My statement above was obviously regarding a healthy amp.
> 
> And regarding gain: even what u call "high gain" bands record with not that much gain, layering guitars with different mics. The clips I made with the JMP-1 and 50/50 on my website were recorded with Gain=1 and double-tracking
> Don't u believe me? Hear, for example, "Indestructible" by Disturbed. Much less gain that u would expect!



WTF is up with this guy? 

You came in asking for advice and reply to a kind response with "PFFFF"??



> "wkcchampion - And regarding gain: even what u call "high gain" bands record with not that much gain, layering guitars with different mics. The clips I made with the JMP-1 and 50/50 on my website were recorded with Gain=1 and double-tracking
> Don't u believe me? Hear, for example, "Indestructible" by Disturbed. Much less gain that u would expect!"




*Please list your back up data regarding Dan Donegan’s recording techniques to back up your statement.*


----------



## dave999z

MartyStrat54 said:


> Since the amp was designed with a 12AT7 for the PI, that can make all the difference in the world.



Yup. That's all I have any experience with is my Marshall EL34 50/50, which is designed to take a 12AT7 in the PI slot. Once I popped the NOS Mullard CV4024 12AT7 in that slot it made a huge difference. Hard to explain, but the difference is in feel (articulation, control, and smoothness). So much fun to play! It's not a difference in tone (in the EQ sense). Also, I previously had a bit of that ice pick sound on high notes. This Mullard PI really took that away.

The PI really is an important position in an amp (at least in my amp) even though it's not in the tone circuit. Don't neglect it people! And if your amp is designed for a 12AT7 in that slot... all I can say is try a NOS Mullard CV4024! It's superb.



MartyStrat54 said:


> The PI is not a tone slot.



Yup.

I need to post some decent reports on my experience so far with the NOS tubes I got from you. But here's some quick info...

For others' reference, I run an ADA MP-2 tube preamp (contains two 12AX7 tubes, probably somewhat analogous to V1 and V2 in most Marshall heads, but it's a complicated circuit), which then (after both tubes) splits into stereo and is fed into a Marshall EL34 50/50 power amp (on each side contains a 12AX7 driver, a 12AT7 phase inverter, and two El34 power tubes). Goes from there (still stereo) into a standard 1960A cab (set on stereo, 8 ohms per side).

The ADA is generally known as a noisy (as in hiss) preamp. Mine is no exception. But when I put that Telefunken smooth plate into V1, it definitely quieted down the hiss.

I've also got the Raytheon black plate in V2.

The combo works well, but it's a major change so requires me to tweak my patches (especially clean patches) on my ADA. The great thing about the ADA is it's so flexible. The bad thing about the ADA is it's so flexible.  So I'll need to work on adjusting my patches for awhile and then report back. But so far I'm really liking this tube lineup. The distortion/overdrive tones with this setup now are just phenomenal. I need to work on the clean tones but it seems very promising.

Cheers!


----------



## solarburn

jcmjmp said:


> Solar - In Europe, the Svetlana brand name belongs to SED. The Svetlana name got stolen in the North American market, which is why they market the real St. Petersburg EL34 under the SED =C= name.
> 
> I learned this the hard way. I bought some Svetlana EL34s 2 yrs ago thinking they were the same as the ones I originally had. When I put them in my DSL, they were just deceiving. With a little research, I learned that they were not real Svetlanas from St Petersburg. What a freakin' ripoff.
> 
> In North America, you need to get the SED =C=, not the Svetlana.



Yeah that was my point between these 2. They are different power tubes that sound different. I see alot of people confusing these over here(North America)cause of the name used.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, Marty! Hey, did you catch number 1,000???




We're suppose to have a lil party and a shot of sumpt'n...


BELCH!


----------



## thrawn86

WTH? The Champ is over here causing damage too? If you can't hear the difference between NOS and CP, then just go buy a Solid State amp and record the ever-loving Hades out of that. Everyone.

End of Line


----------



## wkcchampion

The comparison clips are coming...
The cabinet/speakers thing was going the same way and we all know how it ended.


----------



## core

joshuaaewallen said:


> I wonder if I can get some of that patented "shred oil" for my bridge, my neck, my tuners, the controls on my amps...



The shred oil is for the fingers dude! Cause it's all in the hands right?


----------



## core

RiverRatt said:


> I don't particularly want to argue either, but frankly you state your opinions in a pompous, abrasive manner that invites argument.
> 
> We all respect each other's opinions in regard to preamp tubes in this thread for the most part, and don't need to record sound clips to prove or disprove our claims as to the particular tonal qualities (or lack thereof) of different tubes. If we run across a NOS or CP tube that sounds good, we share that here. If we need to prove it, we've exchanged tubes several times so that the other person can make up their own mind with their own equipment in their own ideal setting. Guess what.... we agree about 99% of the time. That's all the proof I need.
> 
> We all came into this thread with preconceived notions that we've long since abandoned, and because we were open-minded and willing to learn we have all improved our knowledge as well as our tone. I know I can be a smartass and sometimes I'm too quick to judge, but I'm through arguing. I'll be glad to discuss the merits and drawbacks of different tubes with you, but if you honestly can't hear the difference between a Telefunken ECC83 smooth plate and a frozen Chinese tube, we have nothing to talk about.



Well said River. I've wanted to be a smart ass the past few pages too but I think the work is done. Well said.

Oopps I guess I let one leak!


----------



## solarburn

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Looks like Groove Tubes will do anything to sell more tubes...look at this ad i found



For f'ing real?! Who's buying one to see if they can shred better with butter?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

core said:


> The shred oil is for the fingers dude! Cause it's all in the hands right?


Well if a little is good than a lot must be great right? Like gain, or reverb, or chorus, right?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

dave999z said:


> ... The great thing about the ADA is it's so flexible. The bad thing about the ADA is it's so flexible.  ...


Sounds like the RP1000 I just picked up. It does everything and is flexible to the max, but it looks like that could be a blessing and a curse! :Ohno:


MartyStrat54 said:


> ... One of the reasons tube making is almost extinct in North America is because of EPA regulations. This has become a global battle...


This is new to me, what are the EPA regulations doing to tube manufacturing?


MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Looking at the fluctuation in the NOS market right now, I would say that the sink is almost drained of water and the end will be here sooner than expected. Prices have spiked on many of the tubes and now I am seeing 500 to 600 for a quad set of used Mullard xf2 EL34's. One year ago, they were $250. I sure it is just a matter of time before I am forced to quit selling tubes. My prices have been at least $20 cheaper than some of the other places.


Say it ain't so Marty... Say it ain't so...


MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Most companies have shifted their designs so that they work with current production tubes. So it isn't a matter of improving tubes. It's a matter of whether or not you can get a tube order filled. Personally, I got enough tubes to last me a long time, but I do hope that a surge in technology hits the tube manufacturers and better tubes are the end result.


I wonder if the best the common man can hope for is for amp designs that can sound good regardless off the tubes that are in them. But that will be a sad day to be sure. In an ideal world, we'd have both better amps and better tubes.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

solarburnDSL50 said:


> For f'ing real?! Who's buying one to see if they can shred better with butter?



i so fucked up on that one....notice it says "Grovve T ubes"....i'll get better as i learn the program


----------



## rykus

who the f is this guy, the difference between mullard ,telefunken and chinese production is like the difference between a les paul, a strat and walmart acoustic made from particle board. i retried the valvo with the ray blk plate v2 and 5751 v3, and it didn't sound as nice as i remember.... i think at the time i had valvo's in v1 v2 and an amperex holland tube in v3. i also tried my bugle boy and it seemed a little thin, but i was swapping between a couple blk rays in v2 and the one is way nicer sounding, so it looks like my next purchase will have to be a tester so i can base the sounds im hearing with some factuall knowlage that would probably be more help! the mullard has reighned supreme in v1. i m going to take the 5751 out from v3 and try some others cause i want the nice warm break up when i roll v1 and im finding it really transfers alot of highs and is too clean for the sound im going for.plus im still rolling in my practice amp usually at low volume. ive finally bucked up and bought a bias tool so i can not be as dependant on my tech. so i'll start rollin in the marshall once i get my mullards in, can't wait. keep up the good work, i know i've learned a ton on this thread and have learned to not only listen for what i want from a tube but to listen to OTHER POSTERS and their preferance and experiance. wow what a concept


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum.  Sacrilage? But wait...*

I know, I know... This is _the Marshall Forum_. So why on earth do I have the chutzpah to start talkin' Bugera on the Marshall Forum. Well, since my sweet baby is away getting some TLC from Doctor Jon (some voicing mods), I had to have something to toy with, right? Well when you think of cheap what do you think of? Bugera! Right? Of course.

That being said, and this, of course, being my favorite place on earth for tube talk... I, separated by miles, and the guys at UPS, from my lovely TSL... Have undertaken the Herculean task of attempting the unthinkable. Tube rolling in a Bugera. :Ohno:

Here's what we have to work with:






Amp: Bugera 333
Cab: PRS Dallas 2x12 (Celestion Vintage 30's)
Guitar: PRS Custom 24 10 Top
Effects: Digitech RP1000 (used sparingly for delay & reverb)

Now the questions are:
A) What in the bloody heck are the tubes that Bugera slapped their name on, and...
B) What do I have in my arsenal that make for a good initial test run?

Here's what I found for pre-amp tubes (I'll move on to the 6L6's in the power section at another time):

A "Bugera" branded 12AX7A 

 A "Bugera" branded 12AX7B 

 And two "Bugera" branded 12AX7C's. 

 I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess these are all Chinese tubes? And I can find absolutely no wiring schematics or documentation to show what each tube's relative position is in the signal chain, but... Here's the layout as I've found them:







 Any ideas as to which spot in which on this thing? Could I assume that the PI is the one closest to the transformer & the power tubes?

So... Which among these lovely ladies shall we start with?



 

 

 

 

 



All credit goes to Marty for any of the good ones.

At this point, my plan is to try the original line up I had in my TSL first, then perhaps try the latest TSL line up. Hmm... Suggestions? Ahh, the heck w/ it lets run w/ the latest Martimus Maximus Tone Pack that was in my TSL (I miss my baby... ... No, not Marty... My TSL!). But I am still open for suggestions...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Logic tells me this. The 12AX7A is V1. The 12AX7B is V2 and the two 12AX7C's are V3 and V4. I would say the one mounted by itself is V4. You know, the one standing all alone in the back row. Yeah, him.

And yes, they are Chinese tubes. The getter gives it away instantly.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum. Sacrilage? But wait...*



MartyStrat54 said:


> Logic tells me this. The 12AX7A is V1. The 12AX7B is V2 and the two 12AX7C's are V3 and V4. I would say the one mounted by itself is V4. You know, the one standing all alone in the back row. Yeah, him.
> 
> And yes, they are Chinese tubes. The getter gives it away instantly.



Pesky logic! I'm not such a big fan of logic... Usually when I think something seems logical... That's when it bites me in the kiester!


----------



## kanders1

Hey, tubegurus - Are there any quiet current production tubes like the 7025 that would work well for us tightwads who can't do the NOS thing?

Thanks for any suggestions,
Kevin


----------



## joshuaaewallen

kanders1 said:


> Hey, tubegurus - Are there any quiet current production tubes like the 7025 that would work well for us tightwads who can't do the NOS thing?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions,
> Kevin



I like this guy! Right from the start he's to the point and we know where he stands. Rock on Mate!

Current production... That I'd have to defer to someone else since I've pretty much been hounding Marty for NOS since day 1. Marty? Solar? Ratt? Any thoughts?


----------



## MartyStrat54

My comments are in yellow.



joshuaaewallen said:


> Sounds like the RP1000 I just picked up. It does everything and is flexible to the max, but it looks like that could be a blessing and a curse!
> 
> Let me know what that baby can do. I'm itching to buy one.
> 
> This is new to me, what are the EPA regulations doing to tube manufacturing?
> 
> There are lots of highly toxic substances used to make tubes. In the 30's, bad tubes were broken up and scooped with a shovel into drums. Those poor saps were inhaling all sorts of shit, not to mention what got on their clothes and skin. There really wasn't any EPA intervention until most of the tube companies had closed. I often wonder how many men died prematurely due to scooping toxic waste? Philips sold all of their holdings and bought Sylvania's tube plants. They were under EPA scrutiny, but got by because they were a defense contractor. Some say the rush to bring in transistors was fueled by what many saw ahead in regards to tubes, more government regulations.
> 
> Say it ain't so Marty... Say it ain't so...I wonder if the best the common man can hope for is for amp designs that can sound good regardless off the tubes that are in them. But that will be a sad day to be sure. In an ideal world, we'd have both better amps and better tubes.
> 
> I can guarantee you that it will not get better. It is almost like high end tube users are saying, "I need six Mullard EL34 quads to keep my baby going until I don't care anymore." They are snapping up quads for 500 to 600 dollars. It's getting harder for me to sell tubes at the prices I am. I should have raised my prices, but I didn't. In another 3 to 6 months, I will have to decide what I want to do. If the prices are high, there is no room for resale.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum. Sacrilage? But wait...*



MartyStrat54 said:


> Logic tells me this. The 12AX7A is V1. The 12AX7B is V2 and the two 12AX7C's are V3 and V4. I would say the one mounted by itself is V4. You know, the one standing all alone in the back row. Yeah, him.
> 
> And yes, they are Chinese tubes. The getter gives it away instantly.



Crap! I got it right?! That's gotta be a first... Hmm...

Well, here's the layout, and I'm about to flip it off standby and see where it takes me...


----------



## MartyStrat54

kanders1 said:


> Hey, tubegurus - Are there any quiet current production tubes like the 7025 that would work well for us tightwads who can't do the NOS thing?
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions,
> Kevin



Hey Kevin, welcome. One thing you can do is spend an extra two bucks or so for a low noise tube. For example, the Tube Depot sells a regular Tung-Sol 12AX7. However, you can spend extra money for options like low noise and high gain.

Now several companies sell 7025's and they are basically making money off a classic NOS tube. TAD's 7025 is still up on the table. Some people get them and say they are great and others get them and complain that they have a lot of background noise (hiss). So I guess they are good as long as you get a good one.

My recommendation is a low noise Tung-Sol for V1 applications. They are a short plate and what this means is that they are "by design" a quieter tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Re: Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum. Sacrilage? But wait...*



joshuaaewallen said:


> Crap! I got it right?! That's gotta be a first... Hmm...
> 
> Well, here's the layout, and I'm about to flip it off standby and see where it takes me...



You nailed it. I hope it doesn't blow with those primo tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> This is new to me, what are the EPA regulations doing to tube manufacturing?



I don't know about the "what", but I can show you the "why."

Josh, go and check out this page about the old Polam factory in Warsaw. They were owned by Philips and made mercury lamps, fluorescent lights and our old buddy the electron tube. I love the translated Polish warning poster at the beginning: "This building is out of order! You are not allowed to enter because you may DIE!"

52 Photos of a Poisonous, Abandoned Factory: Enter & Die | Design + Ideas on WU


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum. Sacrilage? But wait...*



MartyStrat54 said:


> You nailed it. I hope it doesn't blow with those primo tubes.



Ok... 4 minutes into it... And I can already notice one major difference. The ice-pick highs are gone. It's a darker more brooding tone that it was before. Even heavier when I'm on my lead channel.

... Very interesting...


----------



## kanders1

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Kevin, welcome. One thing you can do is spend an extra two bucks or so for a low noise tube. For example, the Tube Depot sells a regular Tung-Sol 12AX7. However, you can spend extra money for options like low noise and high gain.
> 
> Now several companies sell 7025's and they are basically making money off a classic NOS tube. TAD's 7025 is still up on the table. Some people get them and say they are great and others get them and complain that they have a lot of background noise (hiss). So I guess they are good as long as you get a good one.
> 
> My recommendation is a low noise Tung-Sol for V1 applications. They are a short plate and what this means is that they are "by design" a quieter tube.



Hey, Marty - You gave me the advice for the Tung-Sol on another thread, but I just recently found out about the 7025, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself. I know what you mean about short plate tubes; that was my first requirement . It sounds like a low-noise-tested Tung-Sol is all I need.

You guys are awesomely patient with us new tech wannabes! Thanks again.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Bugera ~ On A Marshall Forum. Sacrilage? But wait...*

Definitely this line up has improved this amps tone. While it still has more gain than I will likely ever need, it's more articulate. W/ the gain fully cranked on the lead I can hit a chord and hear every note. I think that while still being quite appealing to metal heads out there, w/ some good tubes these things can make some good noise.  The clean channel is simply brilliant. Warm yet crisp. Very full sounding. The Crunch & Lead channels are pretty much identical except the Lead might give more gain. Too bad Bugera's build quality isn't all that good. They've got a pretty good sounding circuit, but did go cheap, cheap, cheap, on the construction. 

Since I don't really play out hopefully it'll last a while as my #2 rig... Or... 

Perehaps w/ the RP1000, part of a pretty mean stereo rig when I get my TSL back...

Now... I'm off to do some reading about the health & environmental hazards of tube manufacturing...


----------



## MartyStrat54

kanders1 said:


> Hey, Marty - You gave me the advice for the Tung-Sol on another thread, but I just recently found out about the 7025, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself. I know what you mean about short plate tubes; that was my first requirement . It sounds like a low-noise-tested Tung-Sol is all I need.
> 
> You guys are awesomely patient with us new tech wannabes! Thanks again.



Not a problem. Spread the word that we give advice over here and it's free. 

Yeah, unless you pop for a NOS RCA or USA made 7025, you are basically just getting a 12AX7 that "may" have been screened for low noise.

A 7025 was just a 12AX7 with spiral wound filaments for the heaters. Other than that, it was the same tube. Although the quieter operation labeled them as a clearer more transparent tube. Most 12AX7A's (Note the "A") ended up with the same spiral filaments and that is why you will see USA tubes labeled 12AX7A/7025. Same tube. The 6681 came later and it had the spiral filaments and a beefier build. I feel this ruined the 6681 for use in audio. Just a stiff sounding tube. Perfect for military use in mobile equipment.

The other way to make a tube quiet is how it is physically built. If you study tubes, the pieces that hold all the parts together are called micas. That's right, they are made of natural mica which is a very good insulator. 

The TAD 7025 is modeled after a "special" Mullard ECC83 with the extra top mica spacer (for added stability and rigidness). It says nothing about spiral heater filaments.

Between the top and bottom micas are the metal plates, generally gray, but sometimes black. There are long, medium and short plates. The Tung-Sol is a short plate and the TAD 7025 is a long plate. One of the options for the TAD is low noise??? I mean isn't it supposed to already be low noise?

I will take a low noise Tung-Sol short plate to be quieter in V1 than the TAD. 

What are you trying to accomplish? What sort of sound are you after?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Pesky logic! I'm not such a big fan of logic... Usually when I think something seems logical... That's when it bites me in the kiester!



And speaking of logic... Hey... Am I the only insane asylum escapee (I like to call us the "Lunatic Fringe") on the planet who would actually put this tube line up in a Bugera? :Ohno:

V1: 

 V2: 




V3: 

 V4:


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Chevy Malibu.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's like putting a Ferrari engine in a Chevy Malibu.



... I was gonna say like putting a Flux Capacitor in a Datsun, but yeah... I think we're on the same page here.


----------



## cylon185

*What do you guys think this is ?*

Hi all,

Last time I re-tubed the 6100 with JJs only, replacing everything as I dont have enough knowledge to say which tubes are OK and which ones are not.

Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...

Before I throw them away, I wanted to have you guys' opinion.
Bought these 10 years ago in England, chucked them into the amp, played a few hours, and then left the amp alone for 9,5 years...

Are they worth checking, and selling ? Are straight to the bin?

Cheers,
Cyril


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, you never throw a good tube away, even if it ain't the greatest. Keep them as spares. They don't take up much drawer space and they may come in handy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, the forum god's tell me you are over here. What say you?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, the forum god's tell me you are over here. What say you?



can't speak for any forum god's, but i am here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So the "Bugera Experiment" was a success. It will hold you over until you get that huge TSL Combo back. Curious? What did that cost to ship? $65?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> So the "Bugera Experiment" was a success. It will hold you over until you get that huge TSL Combo back. Curious? What did that cost to ship? $65?



I just shipped the chassis and that cost near that... Would've been cheaper but yours truly didn't have the packing materials so thought the UPS store could do it for him. Highway robbery.

But... It's out the door.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey, it's the Marty and Josh show.

Hey Josh. If your amp comes back and sound as good as what Jon posted up today, you are going to have one bad ass amp.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> So the "Bugera Experiment" was a success. It will hold you over until you get that huge TSL Combo back. Curious? What did that cost to ship? $65?



Huge is right. I've actually been toying w/ the idea of making it into a head. It may be easier to make two trips w/ less weight than one trip resulting in a broken back... 

The head version is the same amp w/ a reverse face-plate, right?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey, it's the Marty and Josh show.
> 
> Hey Josh. If your amp comes back and sound as good as what Jon posted up today, you are going to have one bad ass amp.



That's what I'm shooting for.

... What did he post today?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Just cruzin' by before I go out. We did a couple of practices with the new bass player. It looks like it could work out. She's not a bad singer either. We got some good harmonies going on.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

He did a Whitesnake clip.


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

joshuaaewallen said:


> That's what I'm shooting for.
> 
> ... What did he post today?



Josh i think she was referring to this post
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/14119-2210-wilderfyed-d-2.html


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> He did a Whitesnake clip.





Rockin_Lisa said:


> Just cruzin' by before I go out. We did a couple of practices with the new bass player. It looks like it could work out. She's not a bad singer either. We got some good harmonies going on.



Sweet on all counts.

Nice to hear things are looking up for you!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad to have you stop by. I enjoyed the PM. I hope the new girl works out. That would be a fast recovery. From the sounds of things, she has pro gear all around.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Buggs.Crosby said:


> Josh i think she was referring to this post
> http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/14119-2210-wilderfyed-d-2.html



Yepper, that's the one.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, she play 4 or 5 string bass and plays with a pick or finger style.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you going to the scotch bar? The one with live music?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Rockin_Lisa......proof that hot Chicks only play a Marshall


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

No. We are going to load up and go to this rocker bar about 45 minutes away. It's supposed to have a killer house system. All you bring are your mic's and your gear.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks for the compliment B/C.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Better watch out. Some good looking guy will want to ask you out.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I'll just have to give him the low down. You know, "the band comes first." I've got no time right now for a long term relationship.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You crack me up. I admire your honesty and dedication. Rock and roll baby, all night long.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, it's time to roll. Hope you don't mind if I have a shot of some Red Label. It's cheap and I'm not the driver. See ya!


----------



## MartyStrat54

See you later. It looks like we lost Josh and Buggs. I'll say "adios" for them. Enjoy your night out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Where the hell did everybody go? Oh well, I'm off to other areas myself.


----------



## RiverRatt

I took my wife out to a Mexican restaurant. Had a few Negra Modelo and some camarones Acapulco. I'm back now. My oldest just got in from the prom. He left because they weren't playing any music he liked.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where the hell did everybody go? Oh well, I'm off to other areas myself.



Sorry guys... Little bit of volume blocks out noises like emails and phone calls... All of that.

Just rockin' out here makin' all the dogs bored w/ my bad chops. This RP1000 would probably be right up your alley Marty. Honestly... It might be overkill for me. It'll do way more than I am ever gonna need. So far I've only tapped into 3 or four effects and have only saved one or two patches, and there's hundreds of more things that could be done w/ it by someone who's not such a simple minded bloke...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I took my wife out to a Mexican restaurant. Had a few Negra Modelo and some camarones Acapulco. I'm back now. My oldest just got in from the prom. He left because they weren't playing any music he liked.



Mmm... Mexican...


----------



## core

kanders1 said:


> Hey, Marty - You gave me the advice for the Tung-Sol on another thread, but I just recently found out about the 7025, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself. I know what you mean about short plate tubes; that was my first requirement . It sounds like a low-noise-tested Tung-Sol is all I need.
> 
> You guys are awesomely patient with us new tech wannabes! Thanks again.



I may be coming in late but I don't know what's up with the RCA 7025. I got one off of ebay a few months ago and it was around 38 bucks which isn't too bad for NOS although I think it was used. And my amp tech had some lying around and sold me one for $15 back then! Are they getting more expensive in the last couple months?

BTW not sure what amp you are running but a good high gain 7025 does wonders in V1 for a 900. If you're really into it keep shopping around I'm sure you'll find a deal somewhere. But Marty's suggestion is golden as far as asking for a low noise Tung-Sol. Can't go wrong there.


----------



## kanders1

Well, even *I* am not sure what amp I'm using . You've read my other posts about my MK II. I still have not found a photo of one exactly like mine anywhere.

I'm just now learning about tubes, hence all the questions. But I don't think I'm the type that could tell the difference between various 12AX7 types and manufacturers, unless I could set up an exact A/B comparison.

------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been asked in several threads about my "goals" and what kind of sound I'm looking for, so I figured I should just post here as many details as I can think of:

I'm about to re-tube and re-cap my amp. It doesn't sound bad, but it has the original Daly filter caps and some Groove Tubes I installed years ago. One of my current goals is to have my amp be as quiet as possible, which is why I was asking about low-noise tubes for V1. 

Unfortunately I don't play in bands anymore (kinda hard to meet the right people with the talent, time, and similar musical tastes when you're in your 50's and work 45 hours a week). I went through a "dark" period where I didn't touch a guitar for over a year, but about a year ago I had to troubleshoot my homebuilt Strat copy. One thing lead to another and I ended up rewiring, modding, sheilding, and even refinishing it. It sounded (and looked) so much better that I've been playing it pretty frequently ever since.

I found that I basically suck after not playing regularly for so long, so now I'm currently practicing/relearning and fooling around at home at low volume levels, sometimes with my son who's a bassist. I also goof around with recording a little using Reaper. I like playing classic rock such as Beatles, Hendrix, Zep, Trapeze (anyone remember them?), etc.; I _attempt_ to play some late 70's fusion (Jeff Beck, Return to Forever) and Eric Johnson stuff. I used to watch EJ play in local bars and clubs, going way back 30 years ago; he's my hero!

I still want to be able to crank it up and sound good with minimal usage of effects, but my current goals mostly revolve around getting a good, clean tone with my strat, running through an old Ibanez flanger which I only use for more chorus-like effects, into a Line 6 Delay Modeler, then an Alesis Midiverb for reverb before hitting the amp (I really wish I could afford a stereo setup with two or three amps!). I'm also about to replace an old crappy distortion pedal with something new that's got more tone control, so I can get it to wail and sing at lower volume levels.

I think my clean tone at low levels is already pretty good, but not so good at higher levels after the breakup starts, so I'm interested to see how it sounds after replacing tubes and caps.

Kevin


----------



## core

I remember the amp now. Pretty similar to mine. You know I'm pretty much a layman as well when it comes to tubes so although I may not know the nuances from tube to tube like Marty and the guys here, I can tell you a good tube will give the amp more liveliness and the dynamics will jump out especially at lower volumes. I'm in the same boat being 40 and playing off and on for 25 years now after I got a family and career I'm having fun writing songs and looking to just jam with some guys in a band setting again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

God that takes me back...Trapeze. Yes, I had one of their albums.

In an old amp, you will want it scoped out to see what the power filters look like. You are never going to achieve a quiet amp with half-ass power filters. I can't believe how many people neglect them. Then one goes and they have amp problems. If you work on electronics, the health of the power supply is a strong concern. If the power supply is working right, everything else downhill of it will be happy.

The price of NOS is fluctuating right now. Certain tubes have went through the roof. It's affecting me. Of course, from what I learned on TV last night, the world will end in 2012. That, or the aliens will return to see if we have killed off all of the whales. (Star Trek movie.)

Anyway, I wish you both the best in the pursuit of your tone.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

I got a DSL100 today, and obviously checked out what was in the pre amp and power amp positions, and found 2 very interesting looking valves in v3 and v4, they are smooth plates, but silver and have copper rods and pinched tops like a philips valve any guesses? I will get some pics sorted when i can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Silver? Sounds like a Mazda. But why would they run those tubes in V3 and V4? A Mazda is a V1 tube.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Silver? Sounds like a Mazda. But why would they run those tubes in V3 and V4? A Mazda is a V1 tube.




They really look like Ei, but silver!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Silver? Sounds like a Mazda. But why would they run those tubes in V3 and V4? A Mazda is a V1 tube.



Some of the earlier Ei's had smooth silver plates. They are rare, but otherwise the same as the gray Ei smoothies and they would have had a pinched top. Betcha a quarter that's what they are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like a good guess without any pics.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: What do you guys think this is ?*



cylon185 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Last time I re-tubed the 6100 with JJs only, replacing everything as I dont have enough knowledge to say which tubes are OK and which ones are not.





cylon185 said:


> Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
> Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
> Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624...
> Picasa Web Albums - 10287514479493624... Before I throw them away, I wanted to have you guys' opinion.
> Bought these 10 years ago in England, chucked them into the amp, played a few hours, and then left the amp alone for 9,5 years...
> Are they worth checking, and selling ? Are straight to the bin?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cyril


Marty. Rat. Solar. 

Here's my first ever crack at this, so go easy on me, but... 

Is it just me, or are these not the exact same tubes: 

Cyril's "Marshall" Tubes:



 

 




My "Bugera" Tubes:


----------



## solarburn

Chinese baby.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chuang Sino foo chu pu toa poo.

Translates to:Chinese tubes are like bad chicken.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall uses Sovtek's and Shuguang's because they are cheap. There is a tube called SINO, but most of the tubes are Shuguangs. Sino is English for China.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Chuang Sino foo chu pu toa poo.
> 
> Translates to:Chinese tubes are like bad chicken.



Thats what I thought you meant...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yep. That's what I thought. I'm not exactly very good at tube identification, but these did look suspiciously familiar. Just wanted to check w/ my team of gurus to see if I was correctomundo an all that.

Thanks guys!

Now... Back to vacuuming... Ugh...


----------



## RiverRatt

Those are all Shugang 12AX7s (Chinese). All mine have the "pan" getter like the Marshall ones and all of yours look like halo getters, and there were some that had a solid "coin" getter, but there isn't any real difference between them sound-wise. These are also cooled down to -200C and sold by TAD as their Cryo tube. You know where I stand on that if you've read the last few pages.

These aren't the worst tubes out there. I usually hang onto them as spares and to load up into an amp I'm selling.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm either going to have to start typing faster or thinking faster :cool2:.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Those are all Shugang 12AX7s (Chinese). All mine have the "pan" getter like the Marshall ones and all of yours look like halo getters, and there were some that had a solid "coin" getter, but there isn't any real difference between them sound-wise. These are also cooled down to -200C and sold by TAD as their Cryo tube. You know where I stand on that if you've read the last few pages.
> 
> These aren't the worst tubes out there. I usually hang onto them as spares and to load up into an amp I'm selling.



Indeed! You don't buy anything that ain't cryo... Right? 

Nah, I know your feelings on all that jive. No worries mate.

I can certainly hear the difference big time even in my Bugera between the crap that came in the amp and the NOS that now live quite happily w/in the amp. It really does boggle the mind sometimes. You'd really think that w/ all the vast improvements in technology that tubes would be better than ever... Insane, isn't it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, I just sent a dozen Telefunkens to TAD and I'm paying to have them all cyronized. Frozen Tele's on a stick. Yeah, baby.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, I just sent a dozen Telefunkens to TAD and I'm paying to have them all cyronized. Frozen Tele's on a stick. Yeah, baby.



Ha!!! Love it. Sounds like a special new addition to the Minnesota State Fair's menu... The Menu where everything is on a stick and either fried or frozen!

If ya wind up in MN around August 26-Labor Day lemme know... I'll take ya down to the band shell and get ya'll fattened up w/ some food on a stick and some nice cold beers!


----------



## kanders1

MartyStrat54 said:


> God that takes me back...Trapeze. Yes, I had one of their albums.
> 
> In an old amp, you will want it scoped out to see what the power filters look like. You are never going to achieve a quiet amp with half-ass power filters. I can't believe how many people neglect them. Then one goes and they have amp problems. If you work on electronics, the health of the power supply is a strong concern. If the power supply is working right, everything else downhill of it will be happy.
> 
> The price of NOS is fluctuating right now. Certain tubes have went through the roof. It's affecting me. Of course, from what I learned on TV last night, the world will end in 2012. That, or the aliens will return to see if we have killed off all of the whales. (Star Trek movie.)
> 
> Anyway, I wish you both the best in the pursuit of your tone.




Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by "power filters". Are you referring to the 3 big blue 50uf+50uf 500V capacitors or something else?

Kevin


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those. They purify the DC. The DC is made from AC so there is some ripple to it. Those big caps take the ripple out. If one starts to go bad, it will make all sorts of weird noise including ghost notes.


----------



## thrawn86

Star Trek 4: Save the Whales. We're all screwed, because *THAT'S* where the real global warming of the oceans is going to happen.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and to get a favor, Scotty was going to show some scientists how to make "transparent aluminum." Oh boy. Has anybody seen my glass? It was water in a transparent aluminum drinking device.


----------



## core

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, I just sent a dozen Telefunkens to TAD and I'm paying to have them all cyronized. Frozen Tele's on a stick. Yeah, baby.



Just put em in an ice tray with toothpicks and saran wrap and walla, homemade telesicles!


----------



## siav

Hi guys,

I'd like buy some NOS tubes like Mullard or Philips ones.
Mullard: ECC83 / 12AX7 or ECC81 / 12AT7 /CV4024?
Philips: ECC82 / 12AU7	or ECC83 / 12AX7WA?
and Brimar ECC83 / 12AX7?
How does these tubes sounds like?
And how much of them to get to have a quite good estimate of tone change?
Basically, which preamp tube to change to affect the tone?

Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Star Trek 4: Save the Whales. We're all screwed, because *THAT'S* where the real global warming of the oceans is going to happen.



I have a different theory...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyTm_0D0uS8"]YouTube - Global Warming or: NONE LIKE IT HOT! *HD*[/ame]


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Now that those Tung-sols have had a chance to settle in i really like them , maybe 
one of the nicest sounding pre-amp tubes i'v used .....I still have 2 hi gain GT's in it as well , they may have to go down the road soon ........


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well remember V1 A and B is the Clean. V2 is split as the primary gain stage for both the Crunch (A) and the Lead (B) channels. V6 should be high gain and either V3 or V5 can be high gain. You don't want to stick a bunch of high gain tubes in the amp. If I remember right, the Lead channel is set up so that it will trim the gain from tube to tube. In other words, you can design a gain stage that will only put out a set amount of gain no matter what type of tube you put in.

Yeah those Tung-Sol's are basically the best out-of-the box preamp tube right now.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Thanks for the tech tips on the 6100 !! I will check my tube locations ......


----------



## RiverRatt

siav said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'd like buy some NOS tubes like Mullard or Philips ones.
> Mullard: ECC83 / 12AX7 or ECC81 / 12AT7 /CV4024?
> Philips: ECC82 / 12AU7	or ECC83 / 12AX7WA?
> and Brimar ECC83 / 12AX7?
> How does these tubes sounds like?
> And how much of them to get to have a quite good estimate of tone change?
> Basically, which preamp tube to change to affect the tone?
> 
> Thanks!



Which amp are you putting them in, and what sort of tone are you looking for?

I don't think you will be happy with either the 12AT7 or 12AU7 no matter which Marshall you're putting them in. The 12AT7 will lower the gain if that's what you're looking for, but isn't a very good tone tube. The 12AU7 is the lowest-gain member of the 12A_7 family and is pretty much useless in a Marshall unless you want an ultra-clean tone. The 12AT7s and 12AU7s are cheaper than the 12AX7/ECC83 types, though, so it's not an expensive experiment. 

The Philips tubes (of which Mullard is one) are fairly easy to find. If you want Mullard tone without the expense, look for Matsushita ECC83/12AX7s with the slant getter. Philips Electrohome are a good substitute for Amperex. Ei or Siemens-Halske are decent Telefunken copies. These can be had for much less than the cost of a Telefunken, Mullard or Amperex and will at least give you an idea of what the others will sound like in your amp. 

If you've read back through the previous posts, you'll find that a lot of us like a low to medium-gain Mullard, Matsushita, Telefunken, etc. as the first gain stage tube followed by a high-gain Raytheon black plate in the second gain stage.

Maybe some of the guys who are more familiar with the 30th anniversary and Slash signature amps will chime in with some suggestions as to placement.


----------



## MartyStrat54

siav said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'd like buy some NOS tubes like Mullard or Philips ones.
> Mullard: ECC83 / 12AX7 or ECC81 / 12AT7 /CV4024?
> Philips: ECC82 / 12AU7	or ECC83 / 12AX7WA?
> and Brimar ECC83 / 12AX7?
> How does these tubes sounds like?
> And how much of them to get to have a quite good estimate of tone change?
> Basically, which preamp tube to change to affect the tone?
> 
> Thanks!



Sorry I missed you, as your post was the last on the page.

As I was telling Hot Tubes, the 6101 Combo uses seven 12AX7's.
V1 is the Clean channel.
V2A is the Primary Gain for the Crunch channel.
V2B is the Primary Gain for the Lead Channel
V3, V4 and V5 all Lead channel.
V6 is Crunch channel.
V7 is the Phase Inverter.
Your High Gain tubes would be either V3 or V5 and V6.

Try to find any Philips tubes you can. Amperex, Mini Watt, Mullard, Telefunken, etc. I would put a Telefunken in V1 and V2 and then whatever good tubes you can get in the key positions of V3/V5 and V6.

V7 can be just about any good tube for the PI.

Here is what I posted on a different thread (See 6100 thread).

I had a member of the 6100 Club email me about tube line ups. Most of the 6100's I did received NOS tubes. However, I did quite a few with CP tubes. Here is the format:

V1-TAD 7025S Low Noise for Clean Channel
V2-Tung-Sol (V2A Lead/V2B Crunch)
V3-Mullard RI High Gain (may like it better in V5. Personal taste.)
V4-Tung-Sol
V5-Mullard RI (Again, try this is V3 or V5)
V6-Mullard RI High Gain
V7-EH

The Slash Jubilee amp only has 3 12AX7's and you need a good V1 and V2 and V3 is the PI.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Ok fellas, I have been pondering this for a while and I think I am ready to "git 'er done!" So I come looking for some advice on all this NOS stuff.

I am all over the place with music styles so the tone I am looking for is all over the place too. I use my green channel most of the time as crunch but still like to have that Nashville clean for those times when a little chickin pickin on the strat is needed. I love having the over the top gain/distortion of the red channel and although most of the time it is just my boosted lead, I like to get together with a few 80's metal heads every now and then and go at it.
If it helps at all one of my all time favorite guitar tones was the guitar solos on Great White's "Rock Me".
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_48R572OSI&NR=1]YouTube - Great White - "Rock Me" The Ritz - NY - 1988[/ame]

Suggestions? More info needed? Am I out of my friggin' mind?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Have a tone mod done on your DSL by forum member, Jon Wilder.


----------



## MM54

Hey guys, I got my package today of a new High-Gain Tung-Sol and two EH's.

I really like the tone they put in (as subtle as the change is, it really seems to have smoothed out the high end and generally crunches better).

My question is this: The plates in the new tubes are a good bit darker than those in the old ones - even the older CP EH's were lighter looking plates than the new CP EH's that I got (All three old EH tubes have the same darkness of the plates, and all three new ones, Tung-sol and EH, have the same darkness to them).

Do plates lighten with age, or was it just a different batch of chemicals, or what?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The tube coating can vary in color during the time of manufacturing. Generally, gray is the most common. Then there are the black plates. The black coating on an RCA is completely different than the Raytheon Black Plate. The processes are completely different and makes for a difference in the tone of the tube.

I have many tubes that at first glance look black, but then you can tell they are just dark gray.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

So don't even bother playing around with tubes first?

I have browsed the Wilder site and I am really interested in the Classic Classic head. As for my DSL though I was hoping to maybe play a little before going in to mod world. Heck, I still have warranty time left.

With all these options, I was just hoping for a little help before I start throwing Raytheon or Philips tubes in this spot or that.


----------



## MM54

Does the fact that they're dark grey (not black ) give them the change in tone from the lighter ones or is it just that they're new and different?

I'll rephrase that because it's confusing.

Does the variance in plate coating change the tone at all, only within the realm of the common gray plate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Does the fact that they're dark grey (not black ) give them the change in tone from the lighter ones or is it just that they're new and different?
> 
> I'll rephrase that because it's confusing.
> 
> Does the variance in plate coating change the tone at all, only within the realm of the common gray plate?



Yes the plate coating affects tone. However, it is by varying degrees. On some tubes, it may be more noticeable than on others. At one time, everybody was leaning towards the black plate. However, the Europeans held out and continued to make gray plates. These became the standard for tube production.

All the high dollar NOS tubes are mostly gray plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DSL100 Dude said:


> So don't even bother playing around with tubes first?
> 
> I have browsed the Wilder site and I am really interested in the Classic Classic head. As for my DSL though I was hoping to maybe play a little before going in to mod world. Heck, I still have warranty time left.
> 
> With all these options, I was just hoping for a little help before I start throwing Raytheon or Philips tubes in this spot or that.



Well your original post was "all over" and if you go with certain tubes you get "locked in." If you want to give tubes a try are you going to try and get your tubes on EBAY or a tube seller?

Right now, you would want to go with a Telefunken or other Philips tube in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. Then we go with a solid USA tube in V3 and V4. V4 is high gain as this seems to work best in this amp.

I sell tubes. If interested, PM me.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Ya read my mind. PM sent!


----------



## siav

RiverRatt said:


> Which amp are you putting them in, and what sort of tone are you looking for?
> 
> I don't think you will be happy with either the 12AT7 or 12AU7 no matter which Marshall you're putting them in. The 12AT7 will lower the gain if that's what you're looking for, but isn't a very good tone tube. The 12AU7 is the lowest-gain member of the 12A_7 family and is pretty much useless in a Marshall unless you want an ultra-clean tone. The 12AT7s and 12AU7s are cheaper than the 12AX7/ECC83 types, though, so it's not an expensive experiment.
> 
> The Philips tubes (of which Mullard is one) are fairly easy to find. If you want Mullard tone without the expense, look for Matsushita ECC83/12AX7s with the slant getter. Philips Electrohome are a good substitute for Amperex. Ei or Siemens-Halske are decent Telefunken copies. These can be had for much less than the cost of a Telefunken, Mullard or Amperex and will at least give you an idea of what the others will sound like in your amp.
> 
> If you've read back through the previous posts, you'll find that a lot of us like a low to medium-gain Mullard, Matsushita, Telefunken, etc. as the first gain stage tube followed by a high-gain Raytheon black plate in the second gain stage.
> 
> Maybe some of the guys who are more familiar with the 30th anniversary and Slash signature amps will chime in with some suggestions as to placement.



Hi River Ratt,
Thanks for your reply.
Basically I don't really know the possibilities with those tubes and don't know which ones and how much to get.
That's the point.
I am quite satisfied with the tone I get out of the 6101 (crunch mode one + MXR distorsion III in front of the amp = sounds awesome)
My focus is the 2555sl which has Tun-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and didn't really noticed a change...


----------



## ToddOwnz

Another question for you guys, my preamp is all NOS except for v4 and was wondering what you would recommend for this spot and if it would help out tonally? Right now it's a JJ 

My preamp is as follows: RCA 7025, Raytheon BP, Sylvania, JJ


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ToddOwnz said:


> Another question for you guys, my preamp is all NOS except for v4 and was wondering what you would recommend for this spot and if it would help out tonally? Right now it's a JJ
> 
> My preamp is as follows: RCA 7025, Raytheon BP, Sylvania, JJ



Well... I'll wait for the guys who actually know what their talkin' about to really weigh in, but...
I think Marty's right on. He reccemended a high NOS RAC tube for my V4indicating that it would not so much change my tone, but would rather open the amp up, improve clarity, help w/ my clarity & expressiveness... At least that's been my observation of of that tube in both of my amps. For me it was the Telefunkin' in V1 that mad the most dramatic tonal changes...

From what Jon Wilder tells me, the DSL & TSL circuits are terribly different, so I'd go w/ something like that high gain (35/35) RCA that I've got in my V4.

Just a thought.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ToddOwnz said:


> Another question for you guys, my preamp is all NOS except for v4 and was wondering what you would recommend for this spot and if it would help out tonally? Right now it's a JJ
> 
> My preamp is as follows: RCA 7025, Raytheon BP, Sylvania, JJ



Josh was right on. Pretty much any USA tube or better that is of higher gain. You can go too far, but I've gone 40-39 in the PI before with no problems.

Note: We go by my tester, a B and K 707. 22 represents about 80+ percent, but 30 is already high gain at above 100 percent. So 35-35 is a super high gain tube and it probably is too hot to work in V2 (and way too hot for V1).


----------



## solarburn

ToddOwnz said:


> Another question for you guys, my preamp is all NOS except for v4 and was wondering what you would recommend for this spot and if it would help out tonally? Right now it's a JJ
> 
> My preamp is as follows: RCA 7025, Raytheon BP, Sylvania, JJ



I have a bunch of NOS to use in that position. I still like an LPS in the PI but only in the PI slot. Its too hairy in V1 and never use one in V3 or the cathode follower. IMO this tube excels in the PI. I've got one in my Monza right now. It actually came from Dr Z like that. The JJ came out right away though. Replaced by a Telefunken. Tasty.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I've got one in my Monza right now. It actually came from Dr Z like that...



Hey Joe... Tell me about this Monza you keep mentioning.  I'm not familiar w/ that amp...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Joe... Tell me about this Monza you keep mentioning. I'm not familiar w/ that amp...



I got this amp to cover my desire for a vintage amp that exhibits clear fat saturation, notes that bloom with a smidgen of tube sag built in. So I use it for hot rodded blues and rock stuff. It really is toneful and fun to play. Its a brand new offering from Dr Z amplification. 

I'm still going to add one more to my collection which will be a Wilder Dual Classic for the 80's Raunch & Roll and much more...it will be my main amp.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got this amp to cover my desire for a vintage amp that exhibits clear fat saturation, notes that bloom with a smidgen of tube sag built in. So I use it for hot rodded blues and rock stuff. It really is toneful and fun to play. Its a brand new offering from Dr Z amplification.
> 
> I'm still going to add one more to my collection which will be a Wilder Dual Classic for the 80's Raunch & Roll and much more...it will be my main amp.



Not familiar w/ Dr. Z... A boutique thing there? Can I be nosy and ask what they run $$$-wise?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... & maybe where a guy might hear one?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... & maybe where a guy might hear one?



Youtube and be prepared to laugh. Dude demoing has the porn faces when he plays...I've got the head version.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dammit, Joe. Every time you mention that Monza clip I have to go and watch it again. I have to buy a new refrigerator and this amp is eating me alive.

I've got to be back at the office in a few hours and I'm into my second helping of Old Crow Reserve and watching YouTube videos of amps I can't afford. Looks like Thursday is going to be one fine day. This is my second 17-hour day in a row! I'm off to play video games and see if I can come down off this adrenaline buzz enough to catch a few hours of sleep.


----------



## siav

siav said:


> Hi River Ratt,
> Thanks for your reply.
> Basically I don't really know the possibilities with those tubes and don't know which ones and how much to get.
> That's the point.
> I am quite satisfied with the tone I get out of the 6101 (crunch mode one + MXR distorsion III in front of the amp = sounds awesome)
> My focus is the 2555sl which has Tun-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and didn't really noticed a change...



I just would like to have a bit more gain with my 2555sl...


----------



## Roadburn

This might be a weird question because there are probably a few more factors involved when talking tonal qualities then just gain.
Is there a list or compilation of tubes which gives details about the amount of gain they have compared to the "standard" tubes installed by Marshall???


----------



## RiverRatt

Roadburn said:


> This might be a weird question because there are probably a few more factors involved when talking tonal qualities then just gain.
> Is there a list or compilation of tubes which gives details about the amount of gain they have compared to the "standard" tubes installed by Marshall???



I'll try to answer all this, but be warned, I haven't slept in a long time so it may not make much sense.

Gain factors are a very basic way to think of the different members of the 12AX7 family. A 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100. A 12AT7 has a gain factor of 70. A 12AU7 has a gain factor of less than 20. Some of these tubes have different plate resistance, though, so the overall effect may not be a simple matter of percentages. A 12BZ7 has a gain factor of 100, but roughly half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. The couple I had sounded great FOR HIGH GAIN ONLY. Also, they don't tend to last very long in a Marshall circuit.

Regarding the Marshall 12AX7/ECC83's; since Ei went out of business in the mid 2000's, Marshall has been using either Russian or Chinese tubes ever since, just like everyone else. Ei was IMO the last decent tube manufacturer, and when they folded the cheaper Russian and Chinese tubes became the only option. The quality of these tubes has improved over the years, with the Tung-Sol reissue leading in preamp tubes and the former Svetlana factory tubes sold in the US as Winged C are a good, solid value in EL34s.

Also, there is no guarantee that a 12AX7 will have a gain factor of exactly 100. Some can be as low as 80 or as much as 110 or more. This is true with new tubes, new old stock, and used tubes. I have a couple of used Raytheon JRP 12AX7s that are way higher than 100, but high gain doesn't always translate to good tone, but they make excellent phase inverters and cathode followers. 

My information too is relative to my Marshall DSL, which has two gain stage tubes, V1 and V2. In an amp like this, we have found that a slightly lower gain Telefunken, RFT, Matsushita, Mullard, Brimar, etc. in V1 paired with a higher gain tube like the old USA Raytheon black plates or maybe a high gain Amperex in V2 gives the best overall tone on both the crunch and high (or ultra) gain channels. I don't have a lot of experience with a 3 preamp tube setup, so some of the other guys will have to help with that, same with the 30th anniversary amps as the preamp tubes aren't arranged in a linear fashion like the DSL/TSL amps. 

There's no easy answer as to which 12AX7 tube will work best in your amp and sound best to your ears. The best advice I can give is to try as many different tubes as you can afford to. There are many Philips tubes that have a similar sound to the more famous (and expensive) Mullards, Amperex and Telefunken for a fraction of the cost. Matsushita and Bel are very similar to Mullards in tone, Philips Electrohome tubes made in Canada are similar to Amperex, and Siemens-Halske and Ei both made some decent Telefunken copies. RFT tubes, while not made by Philips, are a nice tube for V1, or even V2 if they are strong enough. They are a darker sounding tube, so if your amp is too bright, they might be what you're looking for. 

I would suggest for your first few purchases, buy from a reputable tube dealer so that you know you are getting a good tube. There are literally hundreds of people selling tubes on eBay who have no idea if a tube is even good or not and it's easy to get a bad one even if you know what you are looking for. I'm sure a lot of people form a bad opinion of NOS tubes simply because the tube they bought is too weak to sound good. Marty usually has a good selection of nice tubes for sale and can put together a set of preamp tubes that will be good quality and sound good in your amp, guaranteed. If you decide to try buying tubes off eBay, make sure the seller posts tests results and has a reasonable return policy. Just about anyone who is selling good quality tubes will accept returns.

Lastly, a tube can only do so much. The overall tone of your amp isn't going to change to the point that it sounds like a different amp. What you will find with a good selection of old tubes is that your tone will be richer in harmonics, your amp will be more dynamic and respond better to your playing, and they will help to smooth out harsh upper mids and highs. This has been true for every tube amp I've had, from little 5 watt combos and heads to high powered Fenders and Marshalls.

That's about all I've got. I'm so tired I'm seeing vapor trails when I move the mouse cursor. Later, guys.


----------



## solarburn

Great info Alan. Muy Bien!


----------



## solarburn

Roadburn said:


> This might be a weird question because there are probably a few more factors involved when talking tonal qualities then just gain.
> Is there a list or compilation of tubes which gives details about the amount of gain they have compared to the "standard" tubes installed by Marshall???



Here is a gain factor chart. As far as tonal characteristics there is all kinds of info on that out there...


Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp


----------



## siav

thanks solar,
I think the Tung Sols are the ones for me
Would they make a Jub brighter, sharper specially in the mids?


----------



## solarburn

siav said:


> thanks solar,
> I think the Tung Sols are the ones for me
> Would they make a Jub brighter, sharper specially in the mids?



They are a fairly balanced tube tone/frequency wise so best bet would be to go ahead and try them. Sometimes you need to commit and try them. After all you need to know what you like in your amp. I do like the Tung Sol preamp tubes in my amps.

To my ears the EH 12AX7's are a brighter preamp tube. JJ ECC83S's are used to restrain brighter amps. All you would need is one in V1 to see...


----------



## jcmjmp

siav said:


> thanks solar,
> I think the Tung Sols are the ones for me
> Would they make a Jub brighter, sharper specially in the mids?



Tung Sols are great in a Jubilee. More mids? I don't know about that. Maybe you should look at speakers to get more mids or turn up the mids control.


----------



## solarburn

siav said:


> My focus is the 2555sl which has Tun-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and didn't really noticed a change...



Have you switched these around to see what happens?

I think an RFT in V1 may work well in that preamp especially on a bright amp. They are $40 a pop but all you would need is one. The JJ ECC83S is a bit more flat compared to an RFT to my ears.


----------



## solarburn

jcmjmp said:


> Tung Sols are great in a Jubilee. More mids? I don't know about that. Maybe you should look at speakers to get more mids or turn up the mids control.



Well there you go siav. Another Jubilee user.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's good to have JCMJMP pop in here. He should do it more often. We're not just about sniffing corks and NOS only. We give a lot of opinions on current production tubes as well. Although a Philips Mini Watt just sounds sexy compared to a JJ.


----------



## siav

@Solar: I have switched them (JJ and Tung Sol) and did not noticed a huge difference, except maybe in the gain level and how sensitive the signal was.

@JCMJMP: yes I definitely have to change the speakers in my Slash signature (which should be V30s) to V30s. I believe a music store changed them for cheaper ones when I took the half stack there for check...

The level of gain here is quite enough I believe. I need now to have more sharp mids, and details in the tone.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's good to have JCMJMP pop in here. He should do it more often. We're not just about sniffing corks and NOS only. We give a lot of opinions on current production tubes as well. Although a Philips Mini Watt just sounds sexy compared to a JJ.


 
Ok I'm gonna buy a Philips MW next 10th paycheck. I got hit with health insurance deductibles on the kids to the tune of almost $500 at one time. Sooooo thats why I haven't got any tubes yet. I will the next 10th. I can afford one at a time if I have too. I want to try one in the Monza...and the Marshall hehe. I hate when other responsibilities shut down my tone tweak'n.

So save me one and please keep a high gain BP safe for me...:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

You're such a good daddy. Big guy!


----------



## solarburn

Doh!


----------



## solarburn

I put 2 slant getter Matsushitas in V1 and V2 and this reminds me of Mullards. I really like how the crunch channel sounds with these. Nice classic Marshall tone with those mids that I love about a Marshall doing classic rock. Great for ACDC. Makes me want to get some Mullards from Marty.


----------



## solarburn

siav said:


> @Solar: I have switched them (JJ and Tung Sol) and did not noticed a huge difference, except maybe in the gain level and how sensitive the signal was.
> 
> @JCMJMP: yes I definitely have to change the speakers in my Slash signature (which should be V30s) to V30s. I believe a music store changed them for cheaper ones when I took the half stack there for check...
> 
> The level of gain here is quite enough I believe. I need now to have more sharp mids, and details in the tone.



Ask Marty about some NOS Mullards or slant getter Matsushitas. Try in V1 and V2. These are mid juiced preamp tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

siav said:


> yes I definitely have to change the speakers in my Slash signature (which should be V30s) to V30s. I believe a music store changed them for cheaper ones when I took the half stack there for check...
> 
> The level of gain here is quite enough I believe. I need now to have more sharp mids, and details in the tone.



Well, Mullard or Matsushita and BEL are going to have more aggressive mids. If the speaker thieves changed out the speakers for G12T-75s that would explain the lack of mids.

Finding a used Slash cabinet might be cheaper than trying to find 4 V30's. I found a 4x21 Slash V30 at GC in Nashville for under $500.



Anybody hanging around? Seems like every night I'm busy at work this place is rocking. C'mon, fess up. It's me isn't it? 

I've been trying some different tube combinations in the Fender Super, and it really seems to like USA tubes. I finally got the cricket noise sorted out and it's one of the most touch sensitive and versatile amps amps I've owned. It covers about all the territory I can't with the DSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's not you. Just bad timing. I seem to come and go. I have a lot going on.


----------



## siav

RiverRatt said:


> Well, Mullard or Matsushita and BEL are going to have more aggressive mids. If the speaker thieves changed out the speakers for G12T-75s that would explain the lack of mids.
> 
> Finding a used Slash cabinet might be cheaper than trying to find 4 V30's. I found a 4x21 Slash V30 at GC in Nashville for under $500.



Certainely but the GC is in the US and I live in Europe...


----------



## Roadburn

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here is a gain factor chart. As far as tonal characteristics there is all kinds of info on that out there...
> 
> 
> Guitar amp tweak - change the gain factor of your pre-amp




Thank you very much!
Now I have something to start with. 150 Pages to sift through is a bit much.


----------



## RiverRatt

siav said:


> Certainely but the GC is in the US and I live in Europe...



I didn't necessarily mean you had to buy it at GC, just that you could probably buy a used cabinet already loaded with V30's (doesn't have to be a Slash model) and swap the speakers out with yours. Then you'll have your Slash cab loaded with V30's again and you can sell the other one with your old speakers in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Roadburn said:


> Thank you very much!
> Now I have something to start with. 150 Pages to sift through is a bit much.



Any question you have, you can just post it. You don't have to do any reading. That's optional and up to you.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Youtube and be prepared to laugh. Dude demoing has the porn faces when he plays...I've got the head version.



If he had a mustache we'd have to call him Mr. Jeremy. Good grief! Anyhoo... Looks like a pretty sweet amp. Is yours a combo or a head?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO9kBcgvvfc"]YouTube - Dr Z Monza guitar amp demo ! (PT 1)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmRJcQ3OXs"]YouTube - DR Z Monza Guitar Amp Demo (pt2)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kxpXbNIADE&feature=related"]YouTube - DR Z-Monza and Z28 together ![/ame]


----------



## solarburn

I got the head because I have other cabs to use.

Check out the sustain...good grief! Sometimes musician's can be sooooo weird!

Here it is in prototype form before Z named it the Monza.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2twmI65yAE8&feature=related[/ame]

In this vid its attenuated by a built in Brakelite. Its on the second notch of attenuation. The amp is very loud...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most of the guys in that room were distributors. They were thinking about the hooker waiting on them in their hotel rooms.

Anyway, without watching the vids, the top dude has issues. He suffers from some rare rectal itch that causes severe facial twitching.

The dude on the bottom could fill in for Billy Gibbons. I liked him.

Now where's that hooker?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got the head because I have other cabs to use.
> 
> Check out the sustain...good grief! Sometimes musician's can be sooooo weird!
> 
> Here it is in prototype form before Z named it the Monza.
> 
> YouTube - Zfest09 GhiaGT
> 
> In this vid its attenuated by a built in Brakelite. Its on the second notch of attenuation. The amp is very loud...



So... Right there in the room plugged into that bad boy... First person an all that... Is it really Billy In A Box?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Most of the guys in that room were distributors. They were thinking about the hooker waiting on them in their hotel rooms.
> 
> Anyway, without watching the vids, the top dude has issues. He suffers from some rare rectal itch that causes severe facial twitching.
> 
> The dude on the bottom could fill in for Billy Gibbons. I liked him.
> 
> Now where's that hooker?



 LOL!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> So... Right there in the room plugged into that bad boy... First person an all that... Is it really Billy In A Box?



It will do ZZ but anything bluesy, raunchy, rocky whatevery hehe. Hotrodded blues all day.

You can't play it in a bedroom...at all. I have to stand out in the hallway and play it. Its a smoker in person. I have it going into a veteran 30 112 cab right now and it cooks I'm tell'n ya. Way more impact in person. 

The thing about it is it sounds huge. Its got this round, fat big tone to it. Saturation is clear and tasty. Soloing is much fun. It won't hide mistakes either but I like it for that. Makes me really dig in and play like I mean it. It keeps up with the DSL to a point. It will keep up with any drummer easily. I hate it attenuated though. I won't use my Airbrake on it cause I luv how it sounds with nothing restraining it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sounds like a pretty sweet amp!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sounds like a pretty sweet amp!



As far as Dr. Z amps go I only like 2. The Monza of course and the Remedy sounds good. His other offererings aren't naughty enough for my taste. Too sophisticated I'd say.

Marshall's what I really dig though. Especially the plexi's. That is my last desire to fulfill for amps...at this point in time hehe. I'm not made of money so there has to be a limit whether I have an urge for something else or not. 

The Plexi is next...Wilder style...speaking of which where the hell's he at...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> As far as Dr. Z amps go I only like 2. The Monza of course and the Remedy sounds good. His other offererings aren't naughty enough for my taste. Too sophisticated I'd say.
> 
> Marshall's what I really dig though. Especially the plexi's. That is my last desire to fulfill for amps...at this point in time hehe. I'm not made of money so there has to be a limit whether I have an urge for something else or not.
> 
> The Plexi is next...Wilder style...speaking of which where the hell's he at...



Yep. Marshall all the way. I have a couple other non-marshall amps, but the one I can't get away from in my Marshall. 

A "Wilder-fied" plexi would be pretty dog-gone awesome. I think Jon is outta town this weekend (if I remember correctly). He's got my marshall right now, and going to be doing some mods to it next week when he gets back. I'm pretty exited.


----------



## rykus

hey all, just recived a compu bias meter and did my first bias job!! stoked, i didn't even die, which was a bonus because then i wouldn't have heard the full glory of the xf 1 mullards i'd been hoarding in anticipation!!! awsome and to mark the occasion i also dropped in my favorite pre amp tubes mullard in v1 raytheon black plate in v2 and an electrohome holland in v3. bias was way easier than i thought and good thing i checked cause she was runnin hot. sounds amazing, way more full and thick, less treble though, maybe a telefunken might work after all. gotta try it with a pedel too... but wierdly the cabinet buzz seemed to disapear.... maybe just too loud to hear. weird.


----------



## solarburn

rykus said:


> hey all, just recived a compu bias meter and did my first bias job!! stoked, i didn't even die, which was a bonus because then i wouldn't have heard the full glory of the xf 1 mullards i'd been hoarding in anticipation!!! awsome and to mark the occasion i also dropped in my favorite pre amp tubes mullard in v1 raytheon black plate in v2 and an electrohome holland in v3. bias was way easier than i thought and good thing i checked cause she was runnin hot. sounds amazing, way more full and thick, less treble though, maybe a telefunken might work after all. gotta try it with a pedel too... but wierdly the cabinet buzz seemed to disapear.... maybe just too loud to hear. weird.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah's he out riding a bicycle or something. I got a 1983 2204 (damn they all go for $900 or more, the 100 watts are cheaper.)

Yeah, it's going straight to him so I can have my two channel 1959 and hot rod 2204. Yessir. I'm selling amps and looking at vintage Marshalls for a 100 watt and the 2204 for my fifty watt. I'm keeping one DSL401, the other sold fast. I sold one of the 602's and the other is up on Craig's List in KC.

Selling some Peavey stuff too. I will be looking for a 20 watt amp (head) as well. I want to end up with a 100, 50, 40 and 20 watt amps and sell everything else. It's stupid to have all this shit just sitting. I want amps that will make me want to play. I probably won't have the coin for the Monza, but maybe the Blackstar. Or what would you recommend, Joe? The Monza was $1400 wasn't it?

The funny thing is a fifty watter isn't that much louder than a 20 watt amp.

Yessir, I'm selling amps and making a change. I won't need the TSL's no more with the two channel Wilder.

Time for a change.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yep. Marshall all the way. I have a couple other non-marshall amps, but the one I can't get away from in my Marshall.
> 
> A "Wilder-fied" plexi would be pretty dog-gone awesome. I think Jon is outta town this weekend (if I remember correctly). He's got my marshall right now, and going to be doing some mods to it next week when he gets back. I'm pretty exited.



Oh ok. Xplains that hehe.

Right on Josh! Didn't know he was mod'n your machine. It will be killa.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah's he out riding a bicycle or something. I got a 1983 2204 (damn they all go for $900 or more, the 100 watts are cheaper.)
> 
> Yeah, it's going straight to him so I can have my two channel 1959 and hot rod 2204. Yessir. I'm selling amps and looking at vintage Marshalls for a 100 watt and the 2204 for my fifty watt. I'm keeping one DSL401, the other sold fast. I sold one of the 602's and the other is up on Craig's List in KC.
> 
> Selling some Peavey stuff too. I will be looking for a 20 watt amp (head) as well. I want to end up with a 100, 50, 40 and 20 watt amps and sell everything else. It's stupid to have all this shit just sitting. I want amps that will make me want to play. I probably won't have the coin for the Monza, but maybe the Blackstar. Or what would you recommend, Joe? The Monza was $1400 wasn't it?
> 
> The funny thing is a fifty watter isn't that much louder than a 20 watt amp.
> 
> Yessir, I'm selling amps and making a change. I won't need the TSL's no more with the two channel Wilder.
> 
> Time for a change.



Righteous! Congrats on the 800 and I say that with the utmost jealousy!!!!!!!!

That thing is gonna smoke on another gear when Jon strokes it out hehe.

The Monza combo(brakelite included)is $1400, the head is $1150.

I haven't heard enough clips of the 20 watt Black Star yet so I don't have a feel for that one yet. You know what I think of the Monza hehe. I think there will continue to be more low watter amps coming out over the next year too. Should be interesting.

You ain't kidd'n about a 20 watter be'n close to a 50 watter. At least in Dr. Z watts it sure as hell is.

I'm glad you got that 800 man. SWEET!


----------



## MartyStrat54

G.A.S


----------



## rykus

i read somewhere that the designer of the Z amp line was friends with the trainwreck designer, and they worked on some amp idea's together. i NEED a small amp too, looked at THD univalve and a CARR amp that uses 1 el34 and has power scaling cause it would be quite convienent for tubes. i liked the sound of 6v6's too but had a little mesa with el84's and hated it loud. but it did have chinese crap tubes and i sold it before i knew better....
congrat's on the 800 marty, i still want one of those too. i only tried one for 1 night a bunch of years ago but that amp started the addiction for me, bye bye mesa's hello marshall. funny you could spend all night twisting dails and f'n with 3 channels or plug in and enjoy the one sound you wanted from day one....anyways keep the updates coming, i love hearin about new stuff i can't afford....


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

So Marty is buying gear behind my back. A 2204. Gee he really knows his amps. I wonder what else he is going to surprise us with? And the 2204 is going to Jon's for the big mods. Wow! I'll bet that will be a screamer, smoker and late night toker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'll be a joker, a smoker and a midnight toker, when it's all said and done. I don't want refined anymore. I want raw, blistering British amplification.

I'm on the prowl for more, he-he.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I'll be a joker, a smoker and a midnight toker, when it's all said and done. I don't want refined anymore. I want raw, blistering British amplification.
> 
> I'm on the prowl for more, he-he.



That's awesome Marty. Joke, smoke, and toke it up mate! I'd love to join you! Man I sure wish I had the $$$ to buy your TSL head off you. Take payments?

Fun to shake it up once in a while, eh?!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> So Marty is buying gear behind my back. A 2204. Gee he really knows his amps. I wonder what else he is going to surprise us with? And the 2204 is going to Jon's for the big mods. Wow! I'll bet that will be a screamer, smoker and late night toker.



... x 2!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> G.A.S



Ok... I must be dumb as a post, but what is "G.A.S."


----------



## core

Dude you are gonna love the 2204 when you get one but don't settle until you find a really clean one. It's worth it! Took mine into the studio yesterday to crank it and compare with my 900 and a JMP-1 just to see the differences and man what a completely different amp. No comparison! The JMP-1 was close after we tweaked it out but the stock presets don't come close. Got a high gain RCA 7025 in V1, Tele in V2 and Raytheon grey plate in V3 and it was so much warmer that the other two setups we had going. Still have old power tubes in it (sent to the tech afterwards for a check up) but even with crappy tubes in it, it smoked!

The main thing I noticed was the warmth, just amazing and the tone was tight with A LOT of clarity which held up as I cranked the volume. Never fell apart. The EQ is non responsive on the amp which is why it's going in but even so the tone was all there minus a little bottom end. That'll get fixed though.

Best amp I've ever played through! Can't wait till it's in top shape. Decided I'm keeping it pretty stock but I'm having them replace the ceramic tube sockets which are pretty chipped up, with some good ones. Make sure the circuit is 100% and get that bottom end back, put the NOS Tung-Sol 6550's in it then it'll smoke for sure!

Best thing? It's loud enough with a bass player and drummer at 2 and doesn't need a pedal!


----------



## Fixr1984

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... I must be dumb as a post, but what is "G.A.S."



Gear Aquisition syndrome


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ok... I must be dumb as a post, but what is "G.A.S."



Hey I got your lil' surprise in the mail today. I been picking away with it!

That was very kewl of you to do Josh! I've been using it with my acoustic and electric today. I like it. Its a huge pick but works fine.

Fixr1984 answered your GAS question...


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Man I sure wish I had the $$$ to buy your TSL head off you. Take payments?



If it don't sell on EBAY, I could do payments, but they would have to be sort of chunky payments, like at least $150 per month.

It's super clean, has Winged=C= EL34's and stock preamp tubes. You would have to round up some NOS for it. I pulled all the NOS, due to keeping the selling price lower.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah-That's what GAS is.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey I got your lil' surprise in the mail today. I been picking away with it!
> 
> That was very kewl of you to do Josh! I've been using it with my acoustic and electric today. I like it. Its a huge pick but works fine.
> 
> Fixr1984 answered your GAS question...



Glad you like it Joe! It is pretty huge, but despite than, I find that I really like them. It just feels good, stays where it should, and seems to aid in making my overall tone as full as it should be. Rock on mate!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah-That's what GAS is.





Fixr1984 said:


> Gear Acquisition syndrome




Ahh... That's what I've coping with lately (despite the actual funds to back up the desire)! Boy... Since I have gas... I guess it's a bad thing that I still have available credit!


----------



## thrawn86

Post Counts! Get you Red Hot Post Counts here!

Sorry guys, you had it commin', right?  

You can just flip me off now: 

I got nuthin' but love for ya' bayba.


----------



## thrawn86

I didn't mean you, Josh.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> I didn't mean you, Josh.



No worries mate. Fortunately I've had about three Long Island's, so I couldn't be less worried. Rock on mate! 

... Besides... I'm too depressed to really take offense at much of anything.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> No worries mate. Fortunately I've had about three Long Island's, so I couldn't be less worried. Rock on mate!
> 
> ... Besides... I'm too depressed to really take offense at much of anything.



We got your back man. Jus hang out with us here we'll take you places you should never go...:eek2:


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Post Counts! Get you Red Hot Post Counts here!
> 
> Sorry guys, you had it commin', right?
> 
> You can just flip me off now:
> 
> I got nuthin' but love for ya' bayba.



Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap...


----------



## thrawn86

If by 'dirt cheap' you refer to 'free,' then yes, you're right fellow Left-Coast dweller.

@Josh....hang in there bro. Just went thru a bout with that myself, still not quite over.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thanks guys!


----------



## ken361

Are the Raytheon black plate organ tubes good as the other Raytheons? for the v2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks guys!



Josh, I got your surprise. I was hoping that it would be some premium condoms. However, the guitar picks are cool too. (Just kidding.)

When I saw that wood pick, it reminded me of one my brother-in-law got for me years ago. I had that pick forever and then somehow manged to loose it. I like how this one has the rubber molded on. The wood is the same as my old one. It's Brazilian Fartwood isn't it?
:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:









Once again, thank you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Are the Raytheon black plate organ tubes good as the other Raytheons? for the v2.



All Raytheon Black Plate tubes were made the same. Thousands of them were relabeled for other companies. Same tube.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> All Raytheon Black Plate tubes were made the same. Thousands of them were relabeled for other companies. Same tube.



Thanks wanna make sure!


----------



## RiverRatt

Some of the relabeled black plates are Sylvania. They usually have a square getter that's soldered directly to one of the tabs and the plates won't have a perfectly straight edge like the Raytheons. The Raytheons have that little paper clip looking thing on the top mica, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If we go that route then you will also come across RCA Black Plates. Lots of these had a square or D getter, depending on age. Not as good sounding as the Raytheon, as Raytheon had the construction process for their Black Plate down to a science. 

Raytheon BP's were in production for about six years. Then they went started using the same gray coating process as everyone else. 1962 through 1964 seem to be the heavy production years.


----------



## ken361

these are the Lowery organ tubes I believe


----------



## MM54

Organ tubes... depresses me. Short story time!

A while back there was a '68 organ amp on the Craigslist here with 8-10 tubes that I could see from the picture, the description said something like 10-12, for around $120. It was around $115 more than I had. Within 20 minutes, the listing was removed, someone had bought it up  Curse my poorness


----------



## ken361

MM54 said:


> Organ tubes... depresses me. Short story time!
> 
> A while back there was a '68 organ amp on the Craigslist here with 8-10 tubes that I could see from the picture, the description said something like 10-12, for around $120. It was around $115 more than I had. Within 20 minutes, the listing was removed, someone had bought it up  Curse my poorness



I see alot on craiges, some people just give them away!


----------



## ken361

RIP Ronnie!
also whats consider high gain on a Hickok? 2000/2020 or 2500?


----------



## MartyStrat54

2300 to 2500


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a lead on a possible piece of tube gear. One of my spotters has found something military. About all I know about it so far is that it's a big metal box that says "radio receiver" on it and it looks old. Any guesses as to what it might be? I haven't had much experience with military stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I doubt if there is going to be any (or very few) 12xx7 tubes. Lots of receiving type tubes and possibly some low power (6V6) tubes.


----------



## eljeffebrown

I need to get the most gain out of my pre tubes,

what I have now,
JJ ECC83-S

what should I get?
RFT ECC83 / 12AX7 (and is this the right price per tube $59.95)
Shuguang 12AX7-B
Sovtek 12AX7-WB
TAD 7025-S / 12AX7
Tung-Sol 12AX7

And I want to darken my amp up a little. I'm already running JJE34L's which should be helping with that but if anyone has any suggestions on that end I'm all ears.

this is the tone I'm shooting for if you interested he is tuned exactly the same as me. my live tone is pretty close to this but it's his 150 to 250 Hz low mids I'm looking for, you know the ones, the ones that punch you in the chest. i'm SOOOO close but i'm missing that range. help me!

changed it just for you Marty!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjTDYimduYM&feature=related]YouTube - entombed crawl with full force xv HIGH QUALITY[/ame]

P.S. what do you think of this drive tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I gave an opinion over at your "Tube With The Most Gain" thread.

Over here I will tell you this and you may or may not know it. The 900 4500 is a hybrid amp. What does this mean? It means that V1 plays a very small role in your preamp, the rest is controlled by clipper diodes. In my experience, a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 will help get the tone you are after. The only other tube to be concerned with is V4. You should use a high gain in this slot. V2 and V3 can be just about anything. They have nothing to do with the preamp. They are a buffer and the reverb driver.

I sell used NOS tubes, and I have Raytheon Black Plates if you are interested, PM me.

Also, for the type of music you are in to, I would try to find a set of 6CA7 tubes, or try the EH 6CA7. 

The Mesa tube is not worth the money. There are other tubes that offer better tone for less money, like the EH 6CA7's.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I gave an opinion over at your "Tube With The Most Gain" thread.
> 
> Over here I will tell you this and you may or may not know it. The 900 4500 is a hybrid amp. What does this mean? It means that V1 plays a very small role in your preamp, the rest is controlled by clipper diodes. In my experience, a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 will help get the tone you are after. The only other tube to be concerned with is V4. You should use a high gain in this slot. V2 and V3 can be just about anything. They have nothing to do with the preamp. They are a buffer and the reverb driver.
> 
> I sell used NOS tubes, and I have Raytheon Black Plates if you are interested, PM me.
> 
> Also, for the type of music you are in to, I would try to find a set of 6CA7 tubes, or try the EH 6CA7.
> 
> The Mesa tube is not worth the money. There are other tubes that offer better tone for less money, like the EH 6CA7's.



I responded, silly!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I want to address all the regular and new members to this section of the forum. I want to thank you for your interest and support in this thread. We strive to be informative and we have are funny and off topic moments. However, I want to assure you that are biggest goal is to answer your questions.

I personally am pleased to know that numerous forum members have found solutions to their tube problems right here. If you're new, or an old pro, if you have a question, ask away. If you have photos of your NOS tubes, feel free to post them. We love TooB PorN.

For some reason, members feel intimidated over the length of this thread. You do not have to read any of the thread to ask a question. We don't mind repeat questions.

Also, we welcome any questions regarding current production tubes. This is not just an NOS thread. We handle all tube questions. Most questions are answered between 15 minutes and 1 day.

Again, thanks for dropping by. Feel free to read some of the back pages.

Thank you.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, I gave an opinion over at your "Tube With The Most Gain" thread.
> 
> Over here I will tell you this and you may or may not know it. The 900 4500 is a hybrid amp. What does this mean? It means that V1 plays a very small role in your preamp, the rest is controlled by clipper diodes. In my experience, a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 will help get the tone you are after. The only other tube to be concerned with is V4. You should use a high gain in this slot. V2 and V3 can be just about anything. They have nothing to do with the preamp. They are a buffer and the reverb driver.
> 
> I sell used NOS tubes, and I have Raytheon Black Plates if you are interested, PM me.
> 
> Also, for the type of music you are in to, I would try to find a set of 6CA7 tubes, or try the EH 6CA7.
> 
> The Mesa tube is not worth the money. There are other tubes that offer better tone for less money, like the EH 6CA7's.



Hey Marty,

I have run kt-77's, but not 6CA7's. I am curious, does a 6CA7 get the same low extension that a KT77 does?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> I have run kt-77's, but not 6CA7's. I am curious, does a 6CA7 get the same low extension that a KT77 does?



6CA7...real one's, have a tone closer to a 6550 than an EL34. The 6CA7 is the American version of the EL34. Although their specifications are very close, the 6CA7 sounds different than an EL34. Again, like a 6550, a 6CA7 is a tube with tight bass and articulate mids and crystal highs. It's a perfect tube for a high gain amp and the lifelong choice of Eddie Van Halen. I have always called a 6CA7 a "poor man's" 6550. Its a great tube and loves to be punished. It's perfect for all veins of hard rock to Goth metal.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> 6CA7...real one's, have a tone closer to a 6550 than an EL34. The 6CA7 is the American version of the EL34. Although their specifications are very close, the 6CA7 sounds different than an EL34. Again, like a 6550, a 6CA7 is a tube with tight bass and articulate mids and crystal highs. It's a perfect tube for a high gain amp and the lifelong choice of Eddie Van Halen. I have always called a 6CA7 a "poor man's" 6550. Its a great tube and loves to be punished. It's perfect for all veins of hard rock to Goth metal.



Thanks Marty.

NOS? Or is there a current production tube you recommend?


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Marty.
> 
> NOS? Or is there a current production tube you recommend?



I run the 6CA7 EH's and I like them alot. I would say they have a similar lowend like the KT-77's. The KT-77's sound similar to 6L6's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Or you can try what I did... buy a big ass Fender 4x10 combo and play it alongside the Marshall. Then you get the 6L6/KT-77/6CA7 sound AND the EL34's. It works fine, you don't have to rebias your amp, and it's easy as hell to switch from one tube sound to the other.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, you are loving that Fender. We might loose you to Fender Forum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of Marshalls. I got to hear over the phone a certain modded TSL122. It ripped. I wonder who that belongs to?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of Marshalls. I got to hear over the phone a certain modded TSL122. It ripped. I wonder who that belongs to?



Hahahaha! Nice!

J man gonna be happy...?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, you are loving that Fender. We might loose you to Fender Forum.



Not a chance. I made one post over there and got flamed for two days. 

Really, I am digging the Fender. It's making me step outside the box and approach things from a different perspective. Not just tone, but playing style. I've been playing a lot more Stones stuff and other things I've been away from for a long time. I sold the last Fender amp I had at least 13 years ago and it's almost like going back to the mindset (playlist?) I had then. I went for years with just a Les Paul and a Princeton.

I had to order a power supply from Fulltone for my Deja Vibe and it finally came in today. Mine is one of the old ones and it takes a 15 watt PS which you can't just pick up at Guitar-A-Center. I've been missing it in the lineup. Next to an OD pedal, that Vibe is about the only other pedal I use enough to justify. It'll do melt-your-face Trower stuff or light chorus sounds. If I could find an overdrive that'll make either the Fender or Marshall do that fuzzed-out EL84 Faces tone, I think I'd be set for awhile. 

Joe, you killed me on the Monza with that last post you made about it. If it's that loud, I don't know if I would ever be able to use it. Killer tone, though. I'd almost come out to the left coast to try yours out.

Sorry for the rambling - I've put in several long days at work lately and I don't have a lot of time to slow down and get back into the thread. My oldest kid is graduating this weekend, too, so double the fun. I'm torn between being proud of him and worrying that he's still going to be lying around on my couch in 5 years. 

Before I fade, Josh is now the proud papa of a Wilder TSL?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Not a chance. I made one post over there and got flamed for two days.
> 
> Really, I am digging the Fender. It's making me step outside the box and approach things from a different perspective. Not just tone, but playing style. I've been playing a lot more Stones stuff and other things I've been away from for a long time. I sold the last Fender amp I had at least 13 years ago and it's almost like going back to the mindset (playlist?) I had then. I went for years with just a Les Paul and a Princeton.
> 
> I had to order a power supply from Fulltone for my Deja Vibe and it finally came in today. Mine is one of the old ones and it takes a 15 watt PS which you can't just pick up at Guitar-A-Center. I've been missing it in the lineup. Next to an OD pedal, that Vibe is about the only other pedal I use enough to justify. It'll do melt-your-face Trower stuff or light chorus sounds. If I could find an overdrive that'll make either the Fender or Marshall do that fuzzed-out EL84 Faces tone, I think I'd be set for awhile.
> 
> Joe, you killed me on the Monza with that last post you made about it. If it's that loud, I don't know if I would ever be able to use it. Killer tone, though. I'd almost come out to the left coast to try yours out.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling - I've put in several long days at work lately and I don't have a lot of time to slow down and get back into the thread. My oldest kid is graduating this weekend, too, so double the fun. I'm torn between being proud of him and worrying that he's still going to be lying around on my couch in 5 years.
> 
> Before I fade, Josh is now the proud papa of a Wilder TSL?



It is full throttle unattenuated which is at its best. I got to let it rip today...nobody here and it just puts a big ass smile on my face...never mind the blood coming out of my ears hehe. I stand out in the hallway and shake my head with amazement and wonder at a 20 watter that can sound like it does...Still need to pair it up with a more suitable speaker/s. 

When I get the Dual Classic I'm going to have a 2 amp set up using the Monza and play some of the raunchiest hot rodded blues and rock I can find in me. I'll play it sleazy and mean it!

I will always have a Marshall and be a Marshall guy however.

Yes on the Josh question.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-I've been tossing speakers around and right now I am liking the Private Jacks and Black Powders in a half stack. Those Black Powder speakers will add the low end to any cab. I took a good look at their frequency graph and they have a small mid boost and then the typical 2KHz spike. The PJ's add a sweetness to the upper mids and highs. I wonder what this would be like with all Black Powders? I'm too lazy to put them in a 212 cab right now. They have a free air resonance of 72Hz, which is low for a guitar speaker. Only the alnico's have a lower free air resonance, but they are almost $300 each. Those Black Powders kick ass and live up to their name. 

"Raw and bright with tight bass and explosive mids and highs," says Eminence.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-I've been tossing speakers around and right now I am liking the Private Jacks and Black Powders in a half stack. Those Black Powder speakers will add the low end to any cab. I took a good look at their frequency graph and they have a small mid boost and then the typical 2KHz spike. The PJ's add a sweetness to the upper mids and highs. I wonder what this would be like with all Black Powders? I'm too lazy to put them in a 212 cab right now. They have a free air resonance of 72Hz, which is low for a guitar speaker. Only the alnico's have a lower free air resonance, but they are almost $300 each. Those Black Powders kick ass and live up to their name.
> 
> "Raw and bright with tight bass and explosive mids and highs," says Eminence.



This looks promising for the Monza...

I like the sounds of these then. The combo of PB's/PJ's looks like they go together well frequency wise. I was hoping you'd get around to trying them out and telling me about them. Cool. Thanks. Keep me posted on the combinations you try. I'm all for not having to spend a bunch of coin on Alnico's...

Man I wish I was your neighbor we'd be having all kinds of fun trying these things out hehe.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I want to address all the regular and new members to this section of the forum. I want to thank you for your interest and support in this thread. We strive to be informative and we have are funny and off topic moments. However, I want to assure you that are biggest goal is to answer your questions.
> 
> I personally am pleased to know that numerous forum members have found solutions to their tube problems right here. If you're new, or an old pro, if you have a question, ask away. If you have photos of your NOS tubes, feel free to post them. We love TooB PorN.
> 
> For some reason, members feel intimidated over the length of this thread. You do not have to read any of the thread to ask a question. We don't mind repeat questions.
> 
> Also, we welcome any questions regarding current production tubes. This is not just an NOS thread. We handle all tube questions. Most questions are answered between 15 minutes and 1 day.
> 
> Again, thanks for dropping by. Feel free to read some of the back pages.
> 
> Thank you.



No hard feelings Marty? I'm really a nice guy once ya get to know me, I can really come off like a dick sometimes! I hope it's all good!


----------



## ken361

How you guys feel about the Raytheon gray plate verse the black plate? that much a difference in tone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

eljeffebrown said:


> No hard feelings Marty? I'm really a nice guy once ya get to know me, I can really come off like a dick sometimes! I hope it's all good!



That wasn't aimed at you in any way. That was one of my monthly announcements to the newbies who get intimidated by the size of this thread.


----------



## MM54

When I was new I stayed away from this thread due to sheer size, but I eventually ventured into it and now I'm a daily reader


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> How you guys feel about the Raytheon gray plate verse the black plate? that much a difference in tone?



Big difference. To me, a Raytheon Gray Plate is equivalent to a Sylvania Gray Plate and I would use them in non-critical applications such as the Tone Stack or the Phase Inverter.


----------



## tonefreak

Me too!

Heck I might even ask a question soon. well actually very soon.


----------



## ken361

Thanks!!


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> That wasn't aimed at you in any way. That was one of my monthly announcements to the newbies who get intimidated by the size of this thread.



I know, It's was all the other shit over the last couple days!


----------



## eljeffebrown

Here's a new one for ya all, now that me and Marty have been talking I've been over at "The Tube Store" (which I've fallen in love with) and I've been looking and reading about tubes and now I'm more confused than before. there are so many friggin' tubes out there to chose from, what do I pick? I'm into Modern Metal but I wanna keep my Marshall sounding like a Marshall if that make sense. Marty made some good suggestions to me but I wanna hear from some other guys before making a final decision (no offence brother) I just wanna see what you other guys have to say!

thanx in advance all!

P.S. we were talking about getting the most gain out of my 900 and darkening it up a bit without losing tightness in the bottom end. I'm using all JJ's in it right now, High Gain selection from Euro Tubes. that's mah story!


----------



## MM54

I have a Tung-Sol high-gain in V1 and CP EH in V2 and 3. My power valves are probably overdue for replacing, but money's tight right now.

My amp is very dark, great for heavy, chugging stuff, although I restrung my guitar and it got a hell of a lot brighter, but it's not overly bright, it's closer to normal now, haha. Figure that one out, maybe it was just my guitar being really dark.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 - if you need power tubes, I have a pair of GT EL34M Mullard copies that I'm probably through with. Joe (Solar) has tried them in his amp at one time. PM me if you're interested. I'll pass them on cheap.

I know this isn't really preamp tube related, but I'm always into new ways to get some different tones. I picked up one of those little Danelectro Fish & Chips EQ pedals for under $30 and it makes a really good booster for the DSL. I spiked the low mids and boosted the highs slightly and set the gain wide open on it and it pushes the Classic clean channel in a really cool way. Nice, thick, chunky 70's classic rock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Danelectro makes some pretty good stuff and it's priced right.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> MM54 - if you need power tubes, I have a pair of GT EL34M Mullard copies that I'm probably through with. Joe (Solar) has tried them in his amp at one time. PM me if you're interested. I'll pass them on cheap.
> 
> I know this isn't really preamp tube related, but I'm always into new ways to get some different tones. I picked up one of those little Danelectro Fish & Chips EQ pedals for under $30 and it makes a really good booster for the DSL. I spiked the low mids and boosted the highs slightly and set the gain wide open on it and it pushes the Classic clean channel in a really cool way. Nice, thick, chunky 70's classic rock.



I used one for a solo boost in the loop when I was play'n out and it worked just fine. I have a 10 band MXR I'm running in front of the DSL and getting cool results.

Yeah I liked those GT EL34M's as much as I don't like GT's marketing BS those tubes sounded really good in my amp. I'd still kick a GT/Fender employee in the nuts for the BS though...


----------



## thrawn86

So it's down to kicking people in the nuts, is it? You guys are violent. I like that.

Just dropped by to say Hi to the gang. Tubes still goin' strong.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Danelectro makes some pretty good stuff and it's priced right.



I agree completely. I've had some Danelectro pedals in the past and I'd honestly say that there is a lot of bang for the buck there.



 ... I'd love to stay and chat, but it's about 1/4 after 5 in the morning, and I have to drag these old bones off to work. It had been uber busy the past couple weeks, but I wanted to pop in and say hi to all my guys, and gals, here on the forum. I hope everyone is doing well.

Rock on, and, as always, in case I don't see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of Marshalls. I got to hear over the phone a certain modded TSL122. It ripped. I wonder who that belongs to?





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahahaha! Nice!
> 
> J man gonna be happy...?



Hold the phone here... Ya'll have heard my surgically altered sweet heart and I haven't?  Somthin' ain't right w/ the universe!  No worries though, I'm only jealous.

I'm hoping Jon'll do a few clips to let me salivate over while I await the return of the TSL... I am super exited! 

Anyhoo... How're ya'll doin' today?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hold the phone here... Ya'll have heard my surgically altered sweet heart and I haven't?  Somthin' ain't right w/ the universe!  No worries though, I'm only jealous.
> 
> I'm hoping Jon'll do a few clips to let me salivate over while I await the return of the TSL... I am super exited!
> 
> Anyhoo... How're ya'll doin' today?



Well I heard one clip of it already. Also I talked to him today and he said the mod actually sounded better on the TSL(gain wise)than mine...

In other words you lucky dog you!!!!!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I heard one clip of it already. Also I talked to him today and he said the mod actually sounded better on the TSL(gain wise)than mine...
> 
> In other words you lucky dog you!!!!!!!



No sooner do I whine and moan a little, and boom! the wild man is on it!

"Them Bones" - Clip

Zak Wild - Clip

I'm totally stoked about getting to plug in and let-er-rip!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The only reason I heard them early is because Jon knows I stay up late. He's on the West Coat with Joey Boy. Jon will call me at 1 AM my time and play modded guitars for me to give my opinion on.


----------



## thrawn86

Hell, I'm up. He never calls me.  Is Jon seeing you behind my back??!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> The only reason I heard them early is because Jon knows I stay up late. He's on the West Coat with Joey Boy. Jon will call me at 1 AM my time and play modded guitars for me to give my opinion on.



I wasn't actually mad or anything... I just didn't know there were any clips in existence yet.  I'm just chompin' at the bit, that's all. :Ohno:

And now... Joy of all joys... I'm off to the chiropractor and the pet store to buy dog food. Hey... Anyone here looking for a small dog to keep them company? Their uber cute...

 C'mon... Just have a look. Plus... In a pinch, they are great when grilled and slathered in bar-b-q sauce!​



... ... ... "And if you act now, we'll also include this lovely quartet of Bugera's genuine 'Made In China' 12AX7 tubes!!! Call now!"




​


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> No sooner do I whine and moan a little, and boom! the wild man is on it!
> 
> "Them Bones" - Clip
> 
> Zak Wild - Clip
> 
> I'm totally stoked about getting to plug in and let-er-rip!




Jack The Riffer strikes again hehe.

You gonna love that shit when it gets home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's gonna be dangerous. What will you do with a TSL that sounds that good in three channels?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's gonna be dangerous. What will you do with a TSL that sounds that good in three channels?



Probably die w/ an ear to ear grin as I bask in it's full orgasmic sonic glory! 

... And if it doesn't kill me I'll probably need a cigarette, which really would be something else since I don't smoke!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's what I want. An amp that brings me to an orgasmic high while playing it. Then I'll need a pack of generic smokes and a shot of bourbon after I had my way with it.
:cool2:


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's what I want. An amp that brings me to an orgasmic high while playing it. Then I'll need a pack of generic smokes and a shot of bourbon after I had my way with it.
> :cool2:



That is both a disturbing and intriguing thought...


----------



## solarburn

You guys are DURTY!

OT-Matsushita!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello. Sorry that I'm not on like I used to be. Everything is fine with the band. We have been puling one more extra practice every week. We already did a short show with the new bass player. As I said, she is a good singer and we are going to figure out some songs where our lead singer can do the backups while she sings the lead.

So Josh, you got your TSL worked on by Jon? I'm sure you will be happy.

Looks like everything is pretty much normal over here. I may go looking around for a bit and then come back before I go.

It's good to be missed.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

And what are you JOE!!!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Are you out there boys? Or are you stuck between pages with a "Can Not Send-Server Error" message.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So you decided to grace the pages of the tube thread? Good to hear you are doing well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I saw that you were over here. I don't know what happened to Joe and Josh.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah they were just over here. It's like they vanished. Better call Miami CSI.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

How's my Marty doing? I can't wait to hear your 2204 when it gets done. I'm glad that I am happy with my DSL.


----------



## thrawn86

What up Lisa.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for asking. I'm doing good. Did I tell you I got the Twister sold? I lost over a $100 on it, but it's gone and the new owner just loves it. It's hilarious. That was not a very good sounding amp and now it has been owned by nine people in less than two years. It was made in June of 2008.

Anyway, it's gone and I am moving on with my backwards approach to better Marshall tone.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

thrawn86 said:


> What up Lisa.



Hey Thrawn Man! What's up? This recession been good to you, or would you like to see it be 1996 again?


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> <snip> {the Twister} was not a very good sounding amp and now it has been owned by nine people in less than two years. It was made in June of 2008. <snip>



Wow, I didn't catch that lil' bit of info the first time around. Lemons.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah Marty, from what you said, the quest for tone has taken you back. Are you going with a JMP?


----------



## thrawn86

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey Thrawn Man! What's up? This recession been good to you, or would you like to see it be 1996 again?



Spending more time with my boys is always a good thing, so in that way it's a Yes. Financially it has been more challenging, but I manage just the same.

'96 age-wise would be fine by me, but the actual year sucked. Married the Hussie that year and wasted another four before she split.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well maybe right on the border of a JMP. Similar circuit design.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> '96 age-wise would be fine by me, but the actual year sucked. Married the Hussie that year and wasted another four before she split.



Wow! I got married in 96 as well and it lasted until May of 99. It was a nightmare.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

See, that's why marriage scares me. Nothing is forever. Good one day and bad the next. Who wants all the stomach acid?

I can always become a nun. Well maybe not a nun.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey ya'll... I'm still here too... I was just distracted w/ working my way through a 40 of Ice House and jamming away to some AC/DC on the boogera.

Lisa! You made it! 'Bout time... Marty & Joe have been their best to turn me into a dirty old man, and I've been resisting, but it's hard. Uh... No comments from the peanut gallery on that Fruedian slip... At any rate, this place needs a woman's touch, and since there ain't no woman like a woman that rocks, don't be a stranger!


----------



## thrawn86

I'm happily married again almost 9 years now. Just gotta find the ones that don't slut-out.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I made it 9 years until mine bailed.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'm not anti-marriage though. Just cautious... There's an old saying, "Marry in haste, repent in leisure." But... I think it's worth it.



thrawn86 said:


> I'm happily married again almost 9 years now. Just gotta _*find the ones that don't slut-out.*_



That's a good part of it.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well Thrawn and Marty, you guys take care. It's Friday night and of course I'll be out and about. I might get back on after I shower and stuff. I'm not going out until around 9 PM. See ya.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well Thrawn and Marty, you guys take care. It's Friday night and of course I'll be out and about. I might get back on after I shower and stuff. I'm not going out until around 9 PM. See ya.



Umm... Goodby to you too!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Oh, I see you made it back Josh. I can hold off for a while. My stinkin' keeps the flies off of me.

Where the hell is dirty ole Joe at?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, the Josh man is back.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yeah... Where's Joe?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Ebcx-mTns[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

You must have hurt his feelings and run him off with the clips of the TSL.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

So that new bassist is workin' out pretty good, eh?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I had a nickle for every time I played "Hey Joe." Either bass or guitar. I'd have a bunch of nickles.

(Boy they're worth a lot nowadays.)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> You must have hurt his feelings and run him off with the clips of the TSL.



Come back man! I didn't mean it. I won't try to use Jon to get better gear anymore. I promise.






... Until the next time I do it...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah it's funny. We didn't even need to run an ad. She found us right after the opening became available. He lives the furthest away. but she drives to the drummers house and then carpools the rest of the way.

Thanks for asking.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, go take a quick look for Joe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah it's funny. We didn't even need to run an ad. She found us right after the opening became available. He lives the furthest away. but she drives to the drummers house and then carpools the rest of the way.
> 
> Thanks for asking.



... Now... I've never been the kinda guy to say I told ya so, but... I seem to recall telling ya that it'd all work out.  And I'm glad it did!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Marty, go take a quick look for Joe.



He must be on the hopper... I sure hope he washes his hands before he starts typing again...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I made a mistake, Josh. I meant to say, "she" instead of "he."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I found him, but he is "PMing" somebody. I left him two messages. Trust me, he'll be flying over here when he reads them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I made a mistake, Josh. I meant to say, "she" instead of "he."



No worries. I kinda figured there was a typo goin' on there.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I found him, but he is "PMing" somebody. I left him two messages. Trust me, he'll be flying over here when he reads them.



That just leaves the question of what exactly was in those messages!?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeppir, even I make mistakes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeppir, even I make mistakes.



Join the club!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well Joe must have died and fell back in it. I can give him another seven minutes. I wanted to be able to say, "Hi" in person.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, he must be writing a novel. There's no way to make a red light flash on his computer screen is there?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well Joe must have died and fell back in it. I can give him another seven minutes. I wanted to be able to say, "Hi" in person.



Well... worst case scenario... He misses out on you and is stuck w/ thus Marty, Thrawn, and me. That's an awful trade!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, we are tearing up this thread. I wonder if there is anyone out there with a tube related question? 

Wait a minute. Where's ALAN? Damn, Alan is missing too.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

"Hello Alan." I'm sorry I missed you.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn, we are tearing up this thread. I wonder if there is anyone out there with a tube related question?
> 
> Wait a minute. Where's ALAN? Damn, Alan is missing too.



Hmm... Tube related questions...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, tell Joe and Alan that I said, "Hello." It's time for me to get with it. If I have time, I will try to log on over the weekend. 

See ya Josh, Thrawn and Marty.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I just got an IM from Mr. Wilder... My TSL is on it's way!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, tell Joe and Alan that I said, "Hello." It's time for me to get with it. If I have time, I will try to log on over the weekend.
> 
> See ya Josh, Thrawn and Marty.



Have a great weekend Lisa!


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, tell Joe and Alan that I said, "Hello." It's time for me to get with it. If I have time, I will try to log on over the weekend.
> 
> See ya Josh, Thrawn and Marty.



Howdy rowdy!!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now you can put some nice tubes in it and it will be ready to rip and tear.

I sent a nice set to Jon for my 2204. I also sent a set of OO getter 6CA7's. Then I realized that those early 2204's used the spring retainer and the "Fat Boys" probably won't fit. Now if it had 6550's in it, I would be okay. 

So reluctantly, I sent him a pair of brand new RFT's. I'll probably have to go with those.


----------



## solarburn

I'm always late when Lisa shows up!

Arrrrrrrrrrgh!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Howdy rowdy!!!!!!



Yer about five minutes late. The train pulled out of the station.


----------



## solarburn

Thanx for the heads up though. My bad!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now you can put some nice tubes in it and it will be ready to rip and tear.
> 
> I sent a nice set to Jon for my 2204. I also sent a set of OO getter 6CA7's. Then I realized that those early 2204's used the spring retainer and the "Fat Boys" probably won't fit. Now if it had 6550's in it, I would be okay.
> 
> So reluctantly, I sent him a pair of brand new RFT's. I'll probably have to go with those.



Hey Marty,

Take the spring retainer out...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well look who decided to get off the can and be sociable!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, the rodeo is over with. She was going to split and told me to look for you. I did and you were PMing and I left you the two messages. I did all that I could doctor, but the patient got away from us.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, the rodeo is over with. She was going to split and told me to look for you. I did and you were PMing and I left you the two messages. I did all that I could doctor, but the patient got away from us.



You guys lost another one? Crap! I better call the morgue.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now that the excitement is over with, I'm making a thick sirloin steak and some fresh, homemade fries, onion rings and mushrooms. Yummy.


----------



## MM54

Hmm, to get on topic... What do I want to know...

Ah.

I have three more 12AX7's and two more EL34's than I have boxes - any suggestions where to get them ?


----------



## solarburn

Oh yeah...tubes. Buy some!Buy me some hehe.


----------



## MM54

Actually now that I think of it, I really would like to know where I could get a couple blank boxes


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now that the excitement is over with, I'm making a thick sirloin steak and some fresh, homemade fries, onion rings and mushrooms. Yummy.



I just raised my already sky high cholesterol by eating half a large pizza. Gad am I full. Hope that Zocor works. I really need to clean my diet up. 

Should have bought some Martimus Maximus Tube Packs instead...

BELCH


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Actually now that I think of it, I really would like to know where I could get a couple blank boxes



I bought a bunch off of ebay. Actually more than I'll likely ever use. I could send you some of them if you'd like.


----------



## solarburn

You can buy them from the Tube Store too.


----------



## MM54

Thanks for the offer, but I actually found them on TubeDepot for like 25 cents a piece, and I need to order something from them soon anyways. Save you the shipping 

Although they have 5 sizes for octal tubes, which would an EL-34 be most comfortable in?
Tube Boxes


----------



## MM54

On an actual tube-related note, what the hell is this and could it be worth anything?:
tube amp/electronics project bundle

I e-mailed him asking if they worked and what kind of tubes were in the tube items.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


>



Thanks for the visual, Josh. I've had that song in my head all day! At least it wasn't "Sundown".


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn, we are tearing up this thread. I wonder if there is anyone out there with a tube related question?



Somebody's usually got one on the MLP, and I reference them back over here. You ever go over there, since the Clown is extinct now? Or have you ever gone over there? I suppose you wouldn't since you're not really a LP guy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I only went over there a few times when I was doing an investigation on the clown. I had action taken against me because of the clown. I'm really, really glad that he is gone.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> Thanks for the offer, but I actually found them on TubeDepot for like 25 cents a piece, and I need to order something from them soon anyways. Save you the shipping
> 
> Although they have 5 sizes for octal tubes, which would an EL-34 be most comfortable in?
> Tube Boxes



MM, Large Dimensions: 1 7/8" x 1 7/8" x 5 3/8".

My EL-34 boxes are 1-3/4" x 1-3/4" x 4-1/2"


----------



## RiverRatt

I just don't fit in here anymore. I haven't bought any new tubes, I've been married going on 22 years, there's no steak or beer in the house...


----------



## MM54

Thanks Marshall Mann (I can't call you MM, I feel schizophrenic!)

To everyone else: that item I posted earlier, I got an e-mail back about what tubes are in it, here's what he said:
Hi Matt,
Good questions - here's a list of tubes I could identify: 3 ea. 6V6 GT, 1 ea. 5Y3 GT, 1 ea. 12 AX7, & 1 ea. 6AU6. I've had this a while and it worked and sounded great through the speaker cab in this bundle. When I tried it more recently, it generated a loud hum. I suspect a recap is probably the cause as in most old amps. 
I don't know what kind of tubes are in the Zenith radio. It powers up, but like the other amp, produces the hum.

Think it could be worth the $35?


----------



## MartyStrat54

...but you can have a smoke whenever you want and I can't.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Thanks Marshall Mann (I can't call you MM, I feel schizophrenic!)
> 
> To everyone else: that item I posted earlier, I got an e-mail back about what tubes are in it, here's what he said:
> Hi Matt,
> Good questions - here's a list of tubes I could identify: 3 ea. 6V6 GT, 1 ea. 5Y3 GT, 1 ea. 12 AX7, & 1 ea. 6AU6. I've had this a while and it worked and sounded great through the speaker cab in this bundle. When I tried it more recently, it generated a loud hum. I suspect a recap is probably the cause as in most old amps.
> I don't know what kind of tubes are in the Zenith radio. It powers up, but like the other amp, produces the hum.
> 
> Think it could be worth the $35?



How did I miss this? You posted this earlier? You should be able to get $35 out of the tubes if they are any good. 6V6's are pretty cheap right now. The 5Y3 if a good brand, could bring $40. The 12AX7 is worth $25 if good and the 6AU6 is worth nothing. Okay, 50 cents.


----------



## MM54

Plus there's the old radio's tubes.

Hell, if nothing else I could mod the shit out of it and get some crazyass tone 


Only remaining problem is that he's like 60 miles away, but I may be able to get transportation tomorrow or Sunday... (I'm 17 and have a license but alas, no car). I'll make a phone call and if things work out, tell the guy I'm interested and make arrangements I guess.

Oh, I'll wrap some quarters too to come up with $35


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...but you can have a smoke whenever you want and I can't.



I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about... (cough, cough). 






Led Zeppelin, oooohhhhhhh


----------



## thrawn86

Ahhh yes, ol' Cheech and Chong.

*"I'd like to see your licence, sir."*

_"Heeeeey man, isn't it back there on the bumper?"_

UUUUhhh......he says his name is RALPH.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well, tell Joe and Alan that I said, "Hello." It's time for me to get with it. If I have time, I will try to log on over the weekend.
> 
> See ya Josh, Thrawn and Marty.




Lisa, Lisa, Lisa...

I missed you so.

Hurry back soon to say hi to your dirty ole' Joe...


----------



## Marshall Mann

thrawn86 said:


> Ahhh yes, ol' Cheech and Chong.
> 
> 
> Kinda grabs you by the boo boo dont it!


----------



## TwinACStacks

One good looking blonde joins the forum and You guys fawn all over her.....

You know what tubes you are thinking with.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well just remember, she joined the DSL Conspriacy. That probably made your day...TWIN.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Yes, but being the Ambassador for the DSL Conspiracy has me pretty much in residence over at the 6100 thread...

 TWIN


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I just don't fit in here anymore. I haven't bought any new tubes, I've been married going on 22 years, there's no steak or beer in the house...



Don't worry mate. It takes more than a good set of tubes to fit in around here! And my guess is you are just demented enough to qualify for membership to this educational chaos!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TwinACStacks said:


> One good looking blonde joins the forum and You guys fawn all over her.....
> 
> You know what tubes you are thinking with.
> 
> TWIN



Can u blame us?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well just remember, she joined the DSL Conspriacy. That probably made your day...TWIN.



What we need is a TSL Rebelion, where all of us TSL owners can band together in the face of all those naysayers who are dissin' our rigs!


----------



## TwinACStacks

I'm allowed to look, But Mrs.Twin says I'm not allowed to fawn.

 TWIN


----------



## TwinACStacks

joshuaaewallen said:


> What we need is a TSL Rebelion, where all of us TSL owners can band together in the face of all those naysayers who are dissin' our rigs!



Change one resistor, You have a DSL....

 TWIN


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TwinACStacks said:


> Change one resistor, You have a DSL....
> 
> TWIN



Maybe, maybe not, but either way, we TSL owner's have more flexibility to work with! <sorry mate, just feeling argumentative today...)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TwinACStacks said:


> I'm allowed to look, But Mrs.Twin says I'm not allowed to fawn.
> 
> TWIN



A wise man listens very carefully when Mrs. Twin speaks her mind!


----------



## TwinACStacks

That's 'cause Mrs.Twin carries a 9mm.

 TWIN


----------



## Wilder Amplification

TwinACStacks said:


> Change one resistor, You have a DSL....
> 
> TWIN



Uh...OK now I'm confused. How in the hell does changing one resistor in a TSL make it into a DSL?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Wilder Amplification said:


> Uh...OK now I'm confused. How in the hell does changing one resistor in a TSL make it into a DSL?



I have no idea mate! But honestly, I don't give a crap. The glory of sound is in the ear of the beholder. I love my TSL, and now that your done w/ it... That's all I really need to know. That's all I do know. These amps (TSL's, shoot... Tube amps as a whole group...) rock. Yeah, like most amps they may need a tweak or two, but they freakin' still rock! 

By the way Jon... You are the man! You don't have any idea how much I am jonesin' to get my amp back from you! Soi exited that I actually am going to take Thursday off of work just so that I can be here when it arrives! - Rock on Mate, and _please_ keep up w/ all the valuable info that you have been adding to the forum!/


----------



## joshuaaewallen

> Originally Posted by *zslane*
> 
> 
> _I wonder which product line sells more units for Marshall: JVM or MG.
> 
> It would be interesting and instructive, I think, to get a glimpse of tube vs. SS amp sales across all manufacturers to get a sense of just how much market penetration tube amps are having these days. Yes, they are more "popular" than ever, but if that just means they are selling to more yuppie yahoos in Beverly Hills than ten or twenty years ago, that may not be saying much about the overall "state of affairs" in amp production.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised to find that SS amps are still the main amps of choice for the common man, while tube amps are for the pros and the well-to-do dilettantes. If the future is to be decided by the masses, then digital modeling and solid state may ultimately win out, for a whole bunch of reasons that have little to do with capturing the sound of "vintage tube tone". Convenience, flexibility, and low cost tend to be more important to regular Joe's than esoteric tonal characteristics.
> 
> Note, I'm not claiming to know one way or the other. I'm just curious and playing devil's advocate._


Playing both sides of the argument:

Here's an area that, though ashamed to say, companies like Bugera (Behringer) may, as scary as it sounds, may actually do good things for tube lovers around the world. Even the cheapest Bugera tube amps sound better than 97% of the solid state amps I've played through. That being the case, tube amp designs that are actually w/in the reach of the common man may actually sustain the desire for better quality tube amps, of all price levels. And... There is the undeniable fact that young players, and old alike, tend to gravitate to the gear they see their favorite bands playing, and let's face it, at this point in time, the mainstream popular musicians are all _still_ playing tube amps. Yes tubes may fade somewhat, but the their may yet be a future for tube amps... (yes... I am trying to be hopelessly optimistic here, and yes, while my absolute _favorite_ amp is still my Marshall tube amp, I do also own a Bugera and a Roland Cube 20X). Anyhoo, I think you get my point.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have got to tell someone about this, and you guys have all been tube scavenging before. My wife and I ditched the kids today and went out treasure hunting. I'm always looking for anything with a tube in it, and we drove past this yard sale and I did a U-turn and went back when a large stereo setup caught my eye. To make a long story short, I bought a McIntosh 4100 receiver and matching speakers for $20. The lady threw in a box of jazz and classic rock LPs for another $10. I know, there's not a tube in the thing, but I could probably sell it for more than I paid for my DSL. It's got a PT in it bigger than my Marshall! Marty, I may be shopping for some tubes soon!!!


----------



## MM54

Nice find, Ratt!

Come summer I plan to traveling around to all the yard sales around here in addition to my nightly craigslist prowl.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I have got to tell someone about this, and you guys have all been tube scavenging before. My wife and I ditched the kids today and went out treasure hunting. I'm always looking for anything with a tube in it, and we drove past this yard sale and I did a U-turn and went back when a large stereo setup caught my eye. To make a long story short, I bought a McIntosh 4100 receiver and matching speakers for $20. The lady threw in a box of jazz and classic rock LPs for another $10. I know, there's not a tube in the thing, but I could probably sell it for more than I paid for my DSL. It's got a PT in it bigger than my Marshall! Marty, I may be shopping for some tubes soon!!!



Ok... Ignorance speaking here, but... That does sound mighty cool man!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Nice find, Ratt!
> 
> Come summer I plan to traveling around to all the yard sales around here in addition to my nightly craigslist prowl.


 I'm planning on hitting 'em hard right now. There are already tons of yard & garage sales going on around here... I am really hopin' to score this summer.


----------



## RiverRatt

They sell on eBay for $500 - $800, and that's just the receiver. I'm about to hook it up and see how it sounds.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> They sell on eBay for $500 - $800, and that's just the receiver. I'm about to hook it up and see how it sounds.



Far out man! Keep us posted!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I have got to tell someone about this, and you guys have all been tube scavenging before. My wife and I ditched the kids today and went out treasure hunting. I'm always looking for anything with a tube in it, and we drove past this yard sale and I did a U-turn and went back when a large stereo setup caught my eye. To make a long story short, I bought a McIntosh 4100 receiver and matching speakers for $20. The lady threw in a box of jazz and classic rock LPs for another $10. I know, there's not a tube in the thing, but I could probably sell it for more than I paid for my DSL. It's got a PT in it bigger than my Marshall! Marty, I may be shopping for some tubes soon!!!



Dude, you did good. Those units cleaned up and in working condition can bring $500. I don't know what condition it's in, but I've seen them go for like $525 on EBAY. Granted, if it was a tube McIntosh for $20, you would have pulled the deal of the century, but the SS McIntosh is still in demand.


----------



## MartyStrat54

May the FARCE be with you, Josh Vader.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dude, you did good. Those units cleaned up and in working condition can bring $500. I don't know what condition it's in, but I've seen them go for like $525 on EBAY. Granted, if it was a tube McIntosh for $20, you would have pulled the deal of the century, but the SS McIntosh is still in demand.



Yah, my wife is already referring to it as "the new refrigerator". I don't think it'll bring hardly that much. What do you think: sell the receiver on eBay or sell the receivers and speakers together on Craigslist?


----------



## MM54

I'd suggest trying craigslist first, less hassle and it won't cost you if it doesn't sell.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yah, my wife is already referring to it as "the new refrigerator". I don't think it'll bring hardly that much. What do you think: sell the receiver on eBay or sell the receivers and speakers together on Craigslist?



Nice score which ever way it goes and for what hehe!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> May the FARCE be with you, Josh Vader.


Hmm... That does sum up my life in general... But to which aspect of that life, or lack thereof, are you referring to?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hmm... That does sum up my life in general... But to which aspect of that life, or lack thereof, are you referring to?



Well, I had to come up with something to use my new UFO Smiley and that was the best I could do.

How about this? What does it do for you?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice... do one with Mr. Smiley and the annoying chick that dances in a 2-second loop on your desktop when you accidentally end up on one of "those" websites.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Ha!


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I had to come up with something to use my new UFO Smiley and that was the best I could do.
> 
> How about this? What does it do for you?



Next best thing to actual female companionship... Or not...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


>



Ha! Nice one man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


>



Wow! I thought I had some good smiley's. Yeah, right!


----------



## solarburn

Guys I just learned the solo part in Badlands "Shine ON". I made a vid so I could show all my buds "I got talent"!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEmYPgnar44&feature=related]YouTube - Badlands - Shine On[/ame]

Disclaimer: That's not me in the vid hehe.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Guys I just learned the solo part in Badlands "Shine ON". I made a vid so I could show all my buds "I got talent"!
> 
> YouTube - Badlands - Shine On


Yeah thats how you do it! great job!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I met that guy at a beer party once. He left with a bloody nose and a split lip. He kept coming up in my face and doing that. I pounded him.


----------



## MM54

Tube Galore! I got back from picking up my latest Craigslist acquisition and here's what there is - I know most (mainly the ones I've never heard of ) are worthless, but which of these are valuable and how valuable are they?

I took a few pics, they come after my massive list. All the Zenith tubes are the originals from a radio made in the early 50's, I like how they're stamped "Replace only with genuine Zenith tubes."

*Radio's Tubes:* _(probably all worthless except the 12AT7)_
Zenith 6BJ6
Zenith 12AT7 (pic below)
Zenith 12BA6
Zenith 12AU6
Zenith 35C5
Zenith 19T8

*Frankenamp's Tubes:* _(it was made out of an old movie projector? Pic below.)_
Sylvania 5879
RCA 6AU6
RCA 12AX7 (pic below)
RCA 6V6 (x2, see pic & note below on 6V6's)
GE 6V6 (see pic & note below on 6V6's)
RCA 5Y3

*The 6V6's are confusing me - all three look different. The GE is the most normal of them, but they're all home to 6 pins - there are two empty slots? Also the getters on the RCA are either not there or hiding - I think I saw what looks like a D-getter right at the base of the tube?? There was no flash visible on one, and the other had a gray haze covering all of the inside of the glass around the plates.

*Speaker Of DOOM:* _(Well, Speaker of Mystery)_
Marty can probably help with this too - I got a mystery speaker cabinet with it - it was clearly formerly a combo amp, and has a single 12" speaker. My multimeter says 7.6ohms, so it's an 8ohm speaker. There are no markings on the thing anywhere, although the corners look like Fender. The only marking on the speaker is "67-8005 25-64" and the magnet is square? I've included a picture.

*Pictures!*
Here's the Zenith 12AT7:





This is Frankenamp, ah, the glory of the days before circuit boards:
(Large image, so just a link): http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/wow.jpg

The RCA 12AX7:





RCA 6V6 (the one with the hidden/missing getters):





The GE 6V6:





And finally, the Speaker of Mystery:
(Another large pic, so just a link again) http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Speaker.jpg

Thanks


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I met that guy at a beer party once. He left with a bloody nose and a split lip. He kept coming up in my face and doing that. I pounded him.



I've met dudes like that too at party's. Sometimes you have to get their attention with a bit of physical gesturing or prompting...

I can soooo picture you doing that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if there isn't any getter flash on that 6V6, there isn't any getter. Look at the bottom. I've never seen a 6V6 without a getter.

The speaker number doesn't match anything in my book of master numbers for speakers. It may be a Heppner with that square magnet. It's probably been replaced. See that dome on the back plate? Those didn't come out until the 60's and your number, 67-8005 25-64, looks like a production code. Could be either 64 or 67.

If you got a black light, look at the edge of the magnet. They used to put the part number there sometimes.

Yeah, most of the tubes are conversation pieces. If you got a 12AX7 and a pair of GE 6V6's, you did pretty good. The 12AT7 as well. Plus the speaker looks like it is in good condition. A pretty nice haul for a rookie.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Where the hell is dirty ole Joe at?



Damn, I found it. Almost got lost looking for it. Well, it's true, you are a dirty ole Joe.


----------



## MM54

What about the 6V6 with the haziness all around the plates? Any idea about what that's about, or should I get a picture?

There are 2 D-shaped structures near the base of the tube, but I can't see any flash, but it could be there.

If you could let me know (here, PM, etc, anything's fine by me) what you think the useful tubes (that rectifier, the 12AX7/12AT7, 6V6, anything else that might have value) it'd be great 


Also, is there a way to find out what resistance a OT is set to put up with? The frankenamp may or may not work, but I wouldn't want to kill it plugging it into that 8ohm speaker. I figure if I can get it to at least power up and put a few sounds through I'll know none of the tubes are shot. I'll probably try the 12AX7 and 12AT7 in my amp some time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got some old octal tubes with the getter below the level of the base. Sometimes you can just see a smoky color near where it is.

It's not uncommon for 6V6's to have a smoky or black look inside the glass. Don't know why they did that, but if you do a Google image search you'll find some examples.



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Disclaimer: That's not me in the vid hehe.



I never thought that was you - I was just wondering what you were searching for when you found that vid.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got some old octal tubes with the getter below the level of the base. Sometimes you can just see a smoky color near where it is.
> 
> It's not uncommon for 6V6's to have a smoky or black look inside the glass. Don't know why they did that, but if you do a Google image search you'll find some examples.
> 
> 
> 
> I never thought that was you - I was just wondering what you were searching for when you found that vid.



I was looking at Badlands vids and it was mixed in with them hehe. I got to say it cracked me up pretty good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Alan. Joe was on www.badlandsporno.com


----------



## MM54

An update - I'm in my shop right now listening to the radio on 60 year old tubes, sure, the volume and signal fade in and out, but when I get good reception, it sounds nice haha

Edit: Now that I'm at a proper computer, I can type a little more. The old Zenith from the early 50's, loaded with the stock Zenith tubes, powered right up when I plugged it in. What I mean about it fading out, is that sometimes (probably 4 or 5 times a minute) the volume fades and it pops a little, then comes back. I'm not surprised by it, the tubes are probably dying, plus I'm below ground, so the radio reception isn't that great. Good news is now I have a radio in my shop to listen to and I don't have to figure out what to do with all those old Zenith tubes (except the 12AT7... maybe).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd love to have an all tube vintage radio. I just wonder if all the tubes are available?


----------



## MM54

I looked online to see if I could get values on mine and found a ton of NOS radio tubes for like... a couple bucks a piece. There was a set of all the ones for the specific radio I have (lol) that was only like $15 or something.


----------



## MM54

Here's a picture of the one I just got - like I said, the bottom has a date of the early 50's (the last digit is scraped off, but there are copyright dates of 1948, 1949, 195(scratched bit) there).

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Radio.jpg


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's what I figured. They made a lot of those tubes and the demand for them is low, so there will be plenty of those left by the time the NOS 12AX7 dries up.

A lot of radio/TV tubes are like 99 cents on EBAY.


----------



## MM54

So Marty, if one were to get knee-deep into tube scrounging/rolling, what would your thoughts be on a Mercury 1101 Tester that one may be able to get for under $100?


----------



## Buggs.Crosby

Lets go Flyers Lets go
soory....just getting my post count up per Marty's method


----------



## MartyStrat54

Any time. This is a big thread. It can absorb a few "freebies."


----------



## MM54

Me said:


> So Marty, if one were to get knee-deep into tube scrounging/rolling, what would your thoughts be on a Mercury 1101 Tester that one may be able to get for under $100?


.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Shame on me. I guess I missed that. Well that little Mercury is just an emissions tester. They only do a partial test of the tube. They will at least give you some idea of whether the tube is good or bad. Emission testers usually give a higher reading than what it would test on a Mutual Conductance tube tester. Here is what I use. 

TubeSound Blog Archive B&K 700 & 707 tube tester

Good tube testers were made up until the early 70's. My 707 will not test any antique tubes like a four pin 300B. Instead I picked the 707 for it's complete selection of what are called the common or newer style tubes. Some people have not even seen some of the last tubes made. They weren't promoted and therefore are obscure. A B and K 700/707 is very fast at checking a wide variety of tubes. I have checked 45 different tubes in about 90 minutes. It was designed for the serviceman that needed to check a lot of tubes everyday.

For more info on the 1101, go here:

Antique Radio Forums :: View topic - Mercury Model 1101 Tube Tester

That guy only paid $35 for his 1101. Something to think about.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, here's one for you. I've been messing with the Fender so much that I forgot my Marshall for awhile. I posted a few pages back about boosting it with that little Danelectro EQ and how good it sounded. I've been able to get tones out of it by playing with the lower mids that I thought the DSL didn't have in it. I've been thinking the whole time that I was running one of my old d-getter Matsushitas in V1, until I found that tube in its box the other day. Turns out it's been that Electrohome tube from last Christmas. I don't even remember putting it in there, but it was sure sounding right. I guess I need to move it to the "A" list. That's a short list of 4 tubes that I know are going to sound right. The Matsushita, the Tele smooth plate, that RFT I got from Joe in a trade, and the Electrohome. None of them are particularly expensive tubes, but they all sound like Marshall designed that circuit around them.

Jog my memory if you can... did I get a Raytheon gray plate from you for the Fender? I've got one of your boxes with that written on it and I can't remember when, where or why.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe I sent you a SYL GP for your Fender. I sent you guys an Electrohome for Christmas. It is a sleeper tube. Great value for the price. To refresh your memory, I bought 40 of them from a Canadian tube seller. Some of the extra high gain one's make a dandy PI tube. They were designed from the Amperex Bugle Boy. I'm glad it worked out well for you. You are like me and you tend to prefer the Amperex sound. The Electrohome is in that vein.


----------



## MM54

Nice, Marty. As is typical for me, it's a case of 'if only I had the money' haha - there's one on e-bay now with one bid for $100.

Maybe some day...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt, you can get into used NOS tubes for a lot less than $100. If you look, you can find mixed set of three or four tubes for say $50-$55. This allows you to try multiple tubes in V1 and get a feel for what tube rolling is all about.

Here is one of my repeat quotes. "Any NOS tube is better than any current production tube." I would rather run Sylvania Gray Plates from the mid-60's, than a Sovtek made yesterday.

Now even though I recommend preamp tubes like Tung-Sol and Mullard, a Sylvania GP is still better. Better vacuum, better parts, better assembly.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, I plan to get into NOS come summer when I'm working full time and have some cash, but I think it would be really useful to have a tester, which is what my previous post was about


----------



## RiverRatt

.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this Matsushita auction out. Wasn't there someone here from Australia trying to find preamp tubes? I'm assuming the shipping would be less there. 

I wonder if that's the original box. I'd like to kick the ass of the idiot behind the date stamp.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160438573431&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123


----------



## RobS

Rather than post a new thread I thought I'd say my bit here.

TungSol 12ax7.........

Well, I bought one today to hear for myself what the hype is about.
Put it in V1 of my 2203 and the sound is incredible!!!!
I've got a Ruby 12ax7 ac5 in V2 and EH12ax7 in V3 and that combo makes for a very good tone across the preamp vol dial.

now one for the tube experts. Is it worth going TungSol in all 3?

In V1 the difference in gain/tone/warmth was exceptional.
This tube has had the biggest tonal difference of all the tubes I have in my spares box which consiste of EH, marshall, Sovtek, Ruby and various JJ's.

Rob


----------



## solarburn

RobS said:


> Rather than post a new thread I thought I'd say my bit here.
> 
> TungSol 12ax7.........
> 
> Well, I bought one today to hear for myself what the hype is about.
> Put it in V1 of my 2203 and the sound is incredible!!!!
> I've got a Ruby 12ax7 ac5 in V2 and EH12ax7 in V3 and that combo makes for a very good tone across the preamp vol dial.
> 
> now one for the tube experts. Is it worth going TungSol in all 3?
> 
> In V1 the difference in gain/tone/warmth was exceptional.
> This tube has had the biggest tonal difference of all the tubes I have in my spares box which consiste of EH, marshall, Sovtek, Ruby and various JJ's.
> 
> Rob



Disclaimer: I'm no expert regarding other peeps amp circuits. I would say I am with mine though when it comes to roll'n tubes.

Only way to really know is try it. If I was to make an educated guess cause I don't use your circuit(amp)I would try a Tungsol in V2 as well and then leave the EH in the PI. Really though I always try the tube after I have a general idea about it and take into account it may sound good in my amp or it may have little impact.

Sounds like the V1 slot made a big diff as it should. I've used the AC-5's in mine and I'd say the Tung Sol had better dynamics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Check this Matsushita auction out. Wasn't there someone here from Australia trying to find preamp tubes? I'm assuming the shipping would be less there.
> 
> I wonder if that's the original box. I'd like to kick the ass of the idiot behind the date stamp.
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160438573431&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123



That's not a short plate. It's a medium plate. He claims it sounds, "brilliant." Does that mean it's a bright tube?

You would think he would have mentioned the date. Maybe 1979 would scare a lot of buyers off.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RobS said:


> Rather than post a new thread I thought I'd say my bit here.
> 
> TungSol 12ax7.........
> 
> Well, I bought one today to hear for myself what the hype is about.
> Put it in V1 of my 2203 and the sound is incredible!!!!
> I've got a Ruby 12ax7 ac5 in V2 and EH12ax7 in V3 and that combo makes for a very good tone across the preamp vol dial.
> 
> now one for the tube experts. Is it worth going TungSol in all 3?
> 
> In V1 the difference in gain/tone/warmth was exceptional.
> This tube has had the biggest tonal difference of all the tubes I have in my spares box which consiste of EH, marshall, Sovtek, Ruby and various JJ's.
> 
> Rob



Hey this is the perfect place to give a review. We do all sorts of tubes here.

First, my question. Did you buy the Tung-Sol with any options such as Low Noise or High Gain?

I usually suggest a Mullard RI behind the Tung-Sol. Get the Mullard in High Gain and leave the EH in the PI slot. That would be my recommendation.


----------



## RobS

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey this is the perfect place to give a review. We do all sorts of tubes here.
> 
> First, my question. Did you buy the Tung-Sol with any options such as Low Noise or High Gain?
> 
> I usually suggest a Mullard RI behind the Tung-Sol. Get the Mullard in High Gain and leave the EH in the PI slot. That would be my recommendation.



Marty,
I bought it from a reputable amp repairer here in Melbourne. I did not specify high gain, just told him it was for V1in the 2203 so maybe he selected a certain one? But it is really quiet.
There are some numbers written on the inside of the box which could be gain stats.not sure. i will post them later tonight. I have practice tonight so it will really get a workout then however as stated before, just at very low volume it has made a remarkable difference. As you can probably tell by my guitar in the pic I play alot of old Kiss stuff, this tube I think will nail it perfectly.well at low vol it has.

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## MM54

I may try out the RCA 12AX7 I got later on in V1, anything I should be aware of (as in, is it likely to sound like crap ?) or anything?

I wish I had something to test those 6V6's and the 5Y3 in so I could sell them  Hey Marty, want to test and sell a couple tubes on commission ?


----------



## RiverRatt

You'd almost be losing money on the 6V6's sending them to someone to test - they just don't bring that much money unless they are old RCA big bottles or something rare. 

Your RCA preamp tube should be better than anything new, I just don't care for most of them in a Marshall. They sound great in a Fender but IMO they lack the midrange bite that European tubes have and don't really work as well with a midrange-voiced amp. If you want to warm up the bass and mids in your amp, they would be a good choice. I think Joe and I decided a hundred or so pages back that they have a "warm, round tone" (does that sound snooty enough?).


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why Fender used 7025's in their preamps. The circuit design limited the amount of gain that would pass to the next stage, so a high gain tube in a Fender is like shooting blanks. Oh it will make some difference, but not like a Marshall. That's what Jon does with the voice mods. He actually reduces the gain in certain stages. You can put a 30-30 in it and it may be actually a 26-26 in the circuit. Regardless, if it has that much hair tone wise, who cares?

Yes RCA tubes were the darlings of the American tube buying public. However, RCA never could compete with Philips. Philips was so huge that they had new ideas and techniques appearing almost daily. Philips made tubes with incredible precision, especially on the screens in miniature tubes such as a 12AX7. If it hadn't of been for WWII, the melting of technologies between the USA and Europe would have never taken place. As it was, the Allied politicians felt it was best to adapt the USA tube pin outs and base patterns for all Allied forces. It was a boom for the American tube makers, that is until the war ended and Philips took the American technology and transformed it into their line of miniature and sub-miniature tubes. Oh, their power tubes were pretty good as well.

To me, the white label RCA's with the slant D getter are the best, but they only made these tubes from like 1958 to 1962. Most people end up with the RCA tube with the Red/Orange paint. These were put together without a lot of quality control. Remember, RCA was completely out of the tube business in 1977. This is why I recommend the RCA tubes made prior to 1967.

However, like Ratt said, I would rather use a 1975 RCA instead of a current production tube. As good as some of them have gotten, the NOS tube at the lowest level is still better. That is why I tell those wanting to get into tube rolling to buy some GE's, RCA's and Westinghouse tubes and roll with those.

Note:In 1975, RCA was buying a lot of tubes from Mullard, who in turn was getting them from RFT. So there is no telling where a 1975 RCA tube came from except by inspecting it for markings and the build of the tube. So the chances are good that you could get a superior tube instead of an RCA.

The better build I was talking about with European tubes translates into their exceptional tonal qualities. Every process needed to make a tube was done with exacting precision. The employees were well versed in the construction process. The number of rejects per batch was low.

Once you really get into tube rolling, you will find yourself gravitating to the European tubes. It is imperative that the money tube, V1, be the best tube you can afford. I always say to buy two tubes as closely matched as possible. These two tubes will give you good service for over 6 years, maybe longer in the V1 slot.

Mullards are usually the best starter tube, as Mullard made thousands of tubes. A Mullard in V1 will give you a noticeable difference in tone. Another sweet tube is an Amperex. Then there is the Telefunken. There are a lot of tubes that fall in between these tubes tonally. Like the three I mentioned, they are all companies that were either owned or controlled by Philips. Just remember, if it is a Philips tube, you can't go wrong buying it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I may try out the RCA 12AX7 I got later on in V1, anything I should be aware of (as in, is it likely to sound like crap ?) or anything?
> 
> I wish I had something to test those 6V6's and the 5Y3 in so I could sell them  Hey Marty, want to test and sell a couple tubes on commission ?



It's always worth a try to use an NOS tube in V1. You may really like it. If it seems lifeless, the tube is probably worn out.

Like the Ratt said, it probably would be worth the shipping costs to test the tubes. Now if you want to pay the shipping, I will be more than glad to test the tubes for you.


----------



## MM54

Just got back from playing guitar, didn't get around to moving any tubes around though. I'm looking at a Wurlitzer 4150 organ on Craigslist for $75 - in the pics I can see what looks like 25+ 12AX7's and a pair of some big-bottle power tubes, possibly 6L6's. There's a rectifier there, too of course. Any idea what is in those, and what does one do with an organ after taking all the tubes ? I wish I had money 

The RCA has a white logo, I don't remember what the getter looks like, give me 5 minutes, I'll go pull it, take a few pics, and let you know about the getter. Maybe I won't take pics and will just let you know. Time will tell.


----------



## MM54

Yup, it's got white print (which comes off way too easily >.<) and a slanted-D getter. I'll see how I like it in V1 tomorrow. I hope it's not too worn down.

I'm still on a quest (also waiting for the old man downtown to shut down his TV repair shop ) to find a tester for myself, but if enough time goes by that I'm sick of sitting on the tubes I'll certainly shoot you a PM about getting them tested.

Edit: this isn't my picture, but it looks like the one on the right:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well those are the good one's.

Send me a link of that Craig's List on the organ.


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## MartyStrat54

Found it. Look Alan, side getter GE 6L6's. Note there are only three like I ended up with. Look how dirty those "original" tubes are. Also, is that 6SN7's down on the bottom?


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## MM54

Message sent.

Also, do any of you happen to have any tricks to keeping my fingers from destroying what's left of the logo? (Other than' don't touch it, haha)


Edit: I guess you found it. Think it's worth scrounging up some money and convincing someone with a truck to get me a ride to pick it up ? I e-mailed the guy about it.


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## MartyStrat54

Well as he said in his listing, he feels that some of the tubes may be bad. They all look original and I think this is similar to an organ I got tubes from, but the organ was long gone. The priest gave me a big box of tubes, but no 12AX7's. It contained a 5U4GB rectifier and a whole bunch of 6SN7's. I also got three GE side getter 6L6's just like the one's in the picture.

The key to success is the brand of the tube and how many are good. You wouldn't be able to clean them tubes without taking the labels off.


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## MM54

I've e-mailed him about what kind of tubes are there, we shall see what he says. With your diagnosis I probably won't go for it.


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## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Found it. Look Alan, side getter GE 6L6's. Note there are only three like I ended up with. Look how dirty those "original" tubes are. Also, is that 6SN7's down on the bottom?



This thing looks OLD. I think the big tube on the left is a big bottle rectifier, like a 5U4GB or something - notice that it's taller than the right pair. The ones under the power tubes I'll bet are the preamp tubes and are 12AX7's that just look bigger because they are closest to the camera. They look like Sylvania or G.E. from the nipples, but the photo isn't great. They do look too tall and skinny to be 6SN7's. Those tubes on the left of the photo could very well be 12AU7's. I think a lot of these older organs stayed with 12AU7's for several years, especially in the tone generator circuits, after the octal preamp tubes faded from use. The only circuit changes would be rewiring for the 9A socket and pinout, otherwise the 12AU7 and 6SN7 were very similar. Of course neither of them are worth anything much unless you have a carton of them.

I'm finding out from pursuing all this electronic equipment that there is a very narrow window in the late 1950's and very early 1960's when everything was 12AX7's and big octal power tubes or 6BQ5's. They must have made an assload of tubes during those years for there to still be so many. Of course the same tubes have pretty much remained in production ever since, but the 1970's were a dark time in tube history. I don't think most of those 12AX7s were made with even a passing thought as to audio fidelity. They just made tubes that operated within the parameters of the 12AX7 specs. The last holdouts of the Philips empire were almost exclusively responsible for the last of the audio-grade tubes. Remember that Sovtek and most of the other eastern block manufacturers at the time were making tubes for MIG fighters, not Marshall amps. Great for vertical climbs, not so great for Smoke on the Water.

MM, I'd grab it if you have the cash. The amp itself would be good to have. The early Goodsell amps were pretty much Hammond pulls wired for a combo cabinet.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah you are right. I was all excited and I didn't look to closely. That is a 5U4 rectifier tube. And you're right, this thing could be full of 12AU7's. Even with that said, if it was down the street from me, I would snag it for the $75. (I could probably get it for $65.)


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## MM54

Got an email back from the guy, said there's two 6L6's, a rectifier (I'm on my phone and don't remember the number, something like 5U4 perhaps?) and around 38 12AX7's, most of them labelled Wurlitzer.

I guess now its a battle of time - him selling it and me getting cash haha


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Got an email back from the guy, said there's two 6L6's, a rectifier (I'm on my phone and don't remember the number, something like 5U4 perhaps?) and around 38 12AX7's, most of them labelled Wurlitzer.
> 
> I guess now its a battle of time - him selling it and me getting cash haha



Borrow the cash. Whatever you need to do. If those Wurlitzer's are Raytheons, that's a goldmine. Even if they aren't, it's still a good deal. Save the caps, resistors, amp, speakers and tubes and anything else interesting and leave the rest on the curb for the trash man.


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## MartyStrat54

Baldwin had the contract with Raytheon. Could be GE's in there.


----------



## MM54

Just got back from playing and rolling a few tubes around. For now I've settled on that old RCA long plate in V1 with a high-gain CP Tung-Sol in V2 (still just an EH in PI). The Tung-Sol used to be in V1, but the RCA almost sounded like it had more gain than the high-gain tested Tung-Sol. Anyways, it sounds good.

I have to make plans for this weekend later tonight, maybe they can include earning (or borrowing) another $20 and picking up an organ 

Or if mom would just give me back the $100 I loaned her 9 months ago...


----------



## MM54

It's a good day in Matt's tubeland! I've confirmed that my dad will lend me the $20 I'm short on the premise that I'll pay him back $30 once I've sold off some of the tubes.

The second great bit of news is the phone call from the owner of the old TV shop that my dad worked in in the 70's (selling tubes, etc). He indeed has some old tubes and equipment he no longer has any use for, presumably including a tester. I don't know for sure what the old tube TV's took, but something's making me think big 'ol power tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No not really. The power tubes were low wattage. You didn't need massive power in a TV set. Maybe a pair of 6V6 or 6AQ5's.

Now I know if I got the organ, I could get everything usable out of it to make my money back. Those tubes are only going to turn into cash if they are not worn out.


----------



## MM54

Visiting the guy's shop tomorrow afternoon and picking up the organ Monday


----------



## BluesRocker

O La La. Got some tubes in the mail today from Marty. Had a long convo with him on the phone the other night and we made a decision on what would be best for me. Well I am getting ready to throw them in. Got a Philips EH and a Raytheon Black Plate. Hope they do the trick. Let ya'll know in a little bit.


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## guitarman8

So I bought this 84 JCM800 4210 and it has three 12ax7's that just say Made in Holland would these be best in V1 V2 V5?

I see dealers trying to get $400 for a pair on Holland made 12ax7's they must be good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitarman8 said:


> So I bought this 84 JCM800 4210 and it has three 12ax7's that just say Made in Holland would these be best in V1 V2 V5?
> 
> I see dealers trying to get $400 for a pair on Holland made 12ax7's they must be good.



Yes and no. Holland made tubes are probably Philips Amperex. The tubes you saw at $400 were probably new in box, or some really rare one's that tested new or matched. I have late 50's Amperex Bugle Boys with the logo's intact and they aren't worth $200 each.

There's no telling what the condition is of your tubes. They could be worn out by now. Assuming they are good, I would run them in V1 and V2. Now I can't remember on this amp. Is V5 the PI or the reverb driver? 

I posted a tube layout for your amp quite a while back and if I remember right, it had a wacky signal path. I'll look it up.


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## MartyStrat54

Okay, I remembered the member's name and was able to find the info quickly.

Here it is:

Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B

Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A

Reverb: V3B and V4B

Effects Return: V4A

Phase Inverter: V5

Use the tubes in V1, V2 and V3. V4 and V5 can be CP tubes.


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## guitarman8

Good so 1 2 3 will get the holland tubes which I've heard and does sounds great. I just jammed off Jeff Becks Guitar Shop Album. All the tunes sounded great with this amp using finger nails.


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## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I put that new Philips in V1 and that Raytheon BP in V2. The sound is amazing! Just what I was looking for.


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## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty, I put that new Philips in V1 and that Raytheon BP in V2. The sound is amazing! Just what I was looking for.



FYI-Cody was originally running a Philips EH 26-26 in V1, but wanted more gain. He liked the Philips, so I sent him a 28-28 and a high gain Black Plate. Sweet.

Thanks for the feedback.


----------



## BluesRocker

No problem. I don't ever use all the gain that I have but it is good to have it on tap. That raytheon bp is the shit I know that for a fact. I may have to invest in a few more.


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## RiverRatt

Speaking of Raytheons, I don't think I've ever seen a Matsushita Raytheon with the tall skinny halo getter.

1 x 7025/12ax7 Raytheon Tube - eBay (item 280508602621 end time Jun-16-10 14:50:20 PDT)

Guys, there are several Raytheon auctions on eBay right now that are Raytheon JRP's. They aren't the same as the ones we're talking about. Look for black plates, a big square getter and red writing. They are usually super-high gain tubes with their own sound. Not bad at all but they may overpower your preamp. If you like feedback, pinch harmonics, and standing at least 10-20 feet away from your amp you might dig them. I mention them just because there are so many on there right now and I know people will be running across them. They are usually quite rare. Like I said, be aware that these are NOT the same Raytheon black plates we're talking about.

Examples:

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-X-RAYTHEON-BLACK-PLATE-SQUARE-GETTER-12AX7-TUBE-/120440689965?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0ad3152d

http://cgi.ebay.com/2-X-RAYTHEON-BLACK-PLATE-SQUARE-GETTER-12AX7-TUBE-/120441207472?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0adafab0

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-NOS-NIB-1954-12AX7-RAYTHEON-D-GETTER-TESTED-/380151259849?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5882c7e2c9

http://cgi.ebay.com/MATHCED-PAIR-RAYTHEON-12AX7-ECC83-TESTED-STRONG-TUBES-/390199798494?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item5ad9b86ade


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## MartyStrat54

The two auctions with the square getter had some low reading tubes. The old High/Low scenario.

The third guy lucked out and found some Yank tubes in NIB condition. $199. Sorry, I'll pass.

The other auction is a later version of the JRP with a halo getter. Completely different sounding tube.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> No problem. I don't ever use all the gain that I have but it is good to have it on tap. That raytheon bp is the shit I know that for a fact. I may have to invest in a few more.



Common reaction.

BP sweetness strikes again. Quite a few of us know what they can do in the right spot and in a few different circuits now...


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## MartyStrat54

I say that we elect the Raytheon Black Plate as the "Tube Of The Year."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> The two auctions with the square getter had some low reading tubes. The old High/Low scenario.
> 
> The third guy lucked out and found some Yank tubes in NIB condition. $199. Sorry, I'll pass.
> 
> The other auction is a later version of the JRP with a halo getter. Completely different sounding tube.



The high-low auction your talking about, the ones listed from China, have been on eBay since last year. Seriously, I bought those JRPs I've got last November I think, and I passed on those two from China way back then. 

I don't get it with the $100 per tube on these things, either. If you buy a JRP from a retailer, they are at least that much if not more.

I'm not putting down JRP's at all. They have a really good reputation with the audiophile community, IMO they just don't sound as nice as the regular Raytheon black plate in a guitar amp. Now when I first got them, I had one in V1 and one in V2 and they did a good job copping that Les-Paul-and-3-Expandoras-into-a-Marshall Billy Gibbons sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

I went to take some tube pictures and gave up. You ever see an amp that was covered with so much crap? You can tell I haven't exactly got a regular gig. Since I started that new business a year and a half ago with a friend, I've been putting in 60+ hours a week. I don't think my Marshall has moved since then. The few times I have played I've used a combo or a small head and a 1x12. This is like playing "Where's Waldo." Actually, it looks like those I-Spy books my kids like. 

Find 7 tube boxes with Marty's handwriting on them.
Find the pack of DR Pure Blues strings
Find the Weber locking bias pot.
Find the back panel screw from a Fender amp.
Find the Apple G3 power cable.
Find the tube shield from V1 of a Marshall DSL.
Find the American Indian artifact.
Find the ceramic slide.
Find the Mullard pin protector.
Find the #2 pencil.
Find the pack of JOB rolling papers (HAH! you can't - I covered them up with the KISS badge).


----------



## RobS

Marty,
The TungSol tube has 140 and 138 written on the inside lid of the box.
Does this make any sense to you?

Rob

BTW.unbraked at practice it really has a sewwt heavy crunchy sound.
I am going to get 2 more, one for V2 in the 800 and 1 for V1 in the 900.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that's a high gain tube. Most of the regular one's are like 114-116. If you order more and want high gain, make sure you select that option when you order. If you can, get a high gain, low noise to use in V1 and then use the one you have in V2 as you do not have any idea if it is a low noise tube. Also, a high gain tube for the phase inverter is recommended as well.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, tomorrow will put those new tubes to the test. Got band practice. But I have faith that the tone will be awesome, after all it IS a Marshall.


----------



## rykus

wow, i miss 5 days and it took nearly 2 hours too catch up. i was just wondering what the deal with brimar tubes is? how do they sound, closer to mullard or amperex? i want some of each but i still haven't found these for cheap enough to justify buying, just wondering if i'm missing out. i kinda remember a page or so ago someone saying the old tubes where too expensive, and i will restate.... there are many for 5-35 dollar range i try to buy many from one seller and combine shipping, and look for sellers that end multiple auctions at once so all the sharks can't last minute out bid ya. i've been starting to write down "new" for differnt testers too since some people only state their tester model and the reading, not what is average new. anyways have a great night. oh also i just remembered some one saying tube amps where more than solid state but the same goes, lotsa garnet , traynor, silvertone , sovtek and other tube amps at a fraction the cost of solid state. i was showing a friend my tube collection and the next week he brought me some tubes he pulled out of some type of ancient amp on the side of the road waiting for the dump... one was an amperex bugle boy 12ax7! i got a telefunken long plate from a record player for 10 bucks. keep your ears and eyes open!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


>



So that's what pelican shit looks like.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Hey all,

I'm a newbie Marshall owner, and longtime Marshall lover. Just bought a Class 5 at Guitar center today! Finally, an all tube Marshall in my hands!

Now, I've heard the stock tubes in the Class 5 are acceptable at best. 

Are there any good suggestions to replacements for the 12ax7's in the amp to make it reach it's full potential? 

I did look at the sets at The tube store, as a reference point.

Please advise.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I went to take some tube pictures and gave up. You ever see an amp that was covered with so much crap? You can tell I haven't exactly got a regular gig. Since I started that new business a year and a half ago with a friend, I've been putting in 60+ hours a week. I don't think my Marshall has moved since then. The few times I have played I've used a combo or a small head and a 1x12. This is like playing "Where's Waldo." Actually, it looks like those I-Spy books my kids like.
> 
> Find 7 tube boxes with Marty's handwriting on them.
> Find the pack of DR Pure Blues strings
> Find the Weber locking bias pot.
> Find the back panel screw from a Fender amp.
> Find the Apple G3 power cable.
> Find the tube shield from V1 of a Marshall DSL.
> Find the American Indian artifact.
> Find the ceramic slide.
> Find the Mullard pin protector.
> Find the #2 pencil.
> Find the pack of JOB rolling papers (HAH! you can't - I covered them up with the KISS badge).



Kiss VIP? cool


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> Kiss VIP? cool



Not that cool. It came with a video game! 

I did get to meet Paul at the summer NAMM show a couple of times. He was a really nice guy. They did an outdoor concert on Saturday night and he was hanging around the Washburn booth and on the convention floor all day.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I'm a newbie Marshall owner, and longtime Marshall lover. Just bought a Class 5 at Guitar center today! Finally, an all tube Marshall in my hands!
> 
> Now, I've heard the stock tubes in the Class 5 are acceptable at best.
> 
> Are there any good suggestions to replacements for the 12ax7's in the amp to make it reach it's full potential?
> 
> I did look at the sets at The tube store, as a reference point.
> 
> Please advise.



Well, you can find a good used NOS EL84 on EBAY as well as a couple of 12AX7's. If you want to go with new stuff, I would recommend the Tung-Sol 12AX7's, because they are short plates and work in a combo better. Your V1 tube needs to be a low noise tube. The Tube Depot offers different options when ordering. I know that V1 is a gain tube, but I haven't much experience with the Class 5 to know if the V2 tube is a phase inverter tube, or some other circuit. A lot of the new low wattage amps have solid state phase inverters. This may be the case here. 

Regardless, get 2, Tung-Sol's and make V2 a high gain. Here is a page with a list of NOS and new tubes for sale. You can get a USA tube for $36. If you go current production, get the Mullard RI.

(JOE-Take a look at these NOS tubes that the Tube Depot is selling. I guess that quad set of 1954 EL-84's I have is worth something.)

EL84 / 6BQ5 Tube Types


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Baldwin had the contract with Raytheon. Could be GE's in there.



Did Baldwin stop making organs at any point or are they still cranking them out after the SS transition? I got a contact with someone locally (not an hour away like most things are) who has a Baldwin organ, knows nothing about it other than it works and they got it used a few years ago. It's free to whoever hauls it away. Hell, for free, I take.

I hope to make arrangements to pick it up on my way back from picking up the Wurlitzer, and have no idea what to expect. If nothing else, I'm sure someone I know would get good use out of it


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, you can find a good used NOS EL84 on EBAY as well as a couple of 12AX7's. If you want to go with new stuff, I would recommend the Tung-Sol 12AX7's, because they are short plates and work in a combo better. Your V1 tube needs to be a low noise tube. The Tube Depot offers different options when ordering. I know that V1 is a gain tube, but I haven't much experience with the Class 5 to know if the V2 tube is a phase inverter tube, or some other circuit. A lot of the new low wattage amps have solid state phase inverters. This may be the case here.
> 
> Regardless, get 2, Tung-Sol's and make V2 a high gain. Here is a page with a list of NOS and new tubes for sale. You can get a USA tube for $36. If you go current production, get the Mullard RI.
> 
> (JOE-Take a look at these NOS tubes that the Tube Depot is selling. I guess that quad set of 1954 EL-84's I have is worth something.)
> 
> EL84 / 6BQ5 Tube Types



Are you referring to these Sylvanias:6BQ5 / EL84 USA 

or is it another quad of El84's you picked up...I'm trying to remember...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you remember, in my personal collection, I have a quad of 1969 RCA 6BQ5's, 2 quads of 60's Telefunken EL84's and a quad of 1954 Amperex EL84's.

Based on what the Tube Depot is selling single tubes for, they are pricey. I've always thought that I could get $300 for the Amperex on EBAY.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you remember, in my personal collection, I have a quad of 1969 RCA 6BQ5's, 2 quads of 60's Telefunken EL84's and a quad of 1954 Amperex EL84's.
> 
> Based on what the Tube Depot is selling single tubes for, they are pricey. I've always thought that I could get $300 for the Amperex on EBAY.



Ok. Yeah you have some cash on hand there...

I remember you talking about the Amperex now.


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, you can find a good used NOS EL84 on EBAY as well as a couple of 12AX7's. If you want to go with new stuff, I would recommend the Tung-Sol 12AX7's, because they are short plates and work in a combo better. Your V1 tube needs to be a low noise tube. The Tube Depot offers different options when ordering. I know that V1 is a gain tube, but I haven't much experience with the Class 5 to know if the V2 tube is a phase inverter tube, or some other circuit. A lot of the new low wattage amps have solid state phase inverters. This may be the case here.
> 
> Regardless, get 2, Tung-Sol's and make V2 a high gain. Here is a page with a list of NOS and new tubes for sale. You can get a USA tube for $36. If you go current production, get the Mullard RI.
> 
> (JOE-Take a look at these NOS tubes that the Tube Depot is selling. I guess that quad set of 1954 EL-84's I have is worth something.)
> 
> EL84 / 6BQ5 Tube Types



Thanks for your help sir!

I will update more on the Class 5 this week. It does have that Marshall crunch, and is very dynamic in it's response. Jimmy Page I'm not....but I'm one step closer now


----------



## BluesRocker

Well. Practice today was, well, F'ING AWESOME. Those tubes sure did the trick. Going against my buddy's JVM. He must have done some EQ settings cause he sounded pretty good compared to last time. And the VM with the greenbacks mixed very well with his JVM with G12-T75's. But anyways. My tone was pretty freaking sweet and smooth. The Les Paul was screaming for more every time I chuncked an E chord. Hit the TS-9 for some creamy screaming leads.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's all good. Glad to hear the good news.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hell yeah. We got a gig this coming Saturday. First one with this band. We are all pretty stocked about it. Cannot wait.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Did Baldwin stop making organs at any point or are they still cranking them out after the SS transition? I got a contact with someone locally (not an hour away like most things are) who has a Baldwin organ, knows nothing about it other than it works and they got it used a few years ago. It's free to whoever hauls it away. Hell, for free, I take.
> 
> I hope to make arrangements to pick it up on my way back from picking up the Wurlitzer, and have no idea what to expect. If nothing else, I'm sure someone I know would get good use out of it



There used to be a Baldwin factory in north Mississippi not too far from here. I think they moved manufacturing to Mexico in the 1990's, so no, there's not an abandoned Baldwin plant somewhere with boxes of tubes. I think they ceased production by the mid to late 1980's. Baldwin is now owned by Gibson guitars, who also owns Wurlitzer and several other organ & piano trademarks.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you remember, in my personal collection, I have a quad of 1969 RCA 6BQ5's, 2 quads of 60's Telefunken EL84's and a quad of 1954 Amperex EL84's.
> 
> Based on what the Tube Depot is selling single tubes for, they are pricey. I've always thought that I could get $300 for the Amperex on EBAY.



That single Amperex EL84 that you tested for me sold on ebay for a whopping $10. I would have kept it if I'd known that would be the going price.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> There used to be a Baldwin factory in north Mississippi not too far from here. I think they moved manufacturing to Mexico in the 1990's, so no, *there's not an abandoned Baldwin plant somewhere with boxes of tubes*. I think they ceased production by the mid to late 1980's. Baldwin is now owned by Gibson guitars, who also owns Wurlitzer and several other organ & piano trademarks.



That would just be too cool 


So when I went to visit the TV/stereo shop that's closing, nobody was there, so I didn't get a chance to see what they're getting rid of. Hopefully some time this week I can arrange to pay him a visit. If he doesn't have a tester:

Marty, what do you think about an Eico 667 tester that was on CL a few days ago for $125? From what I've looked up it's not just an emissions tester, but I don't know for sure much about it, even if whoever was selling it still has it or not. Just wondering.

Thanks.


----------



## Gtarzan81

So if I'm reading this correctly, I should grab Tung sol's 12ax7's with a low noise for v1, and high gain for v2. The output would be a Mullard RI EL84. 

The el84s come in matched pairs, and I only need one, hehe. If I get the gold pin tung sols from tube depot, and the Mullard el84, that would be about $80 plus shipping.


----------



## BluesRocker

Gtarzan81 said:


> So if I'm reading this correctly, I should grab Tung sol's 12ax7's with a low noise for v1, and high gain for v2. The output would be a Mullard RI EL84.
> 
> The el84s come in matched pairs, and I only need one, hehe. If I get the gold pin tung sols from tube depot, and the Mullard el84, that would be about $80 plus shipping.



Dont get the gold pins.. They are a HUGE gimic. all you are doing is throwing your money away. Just get the regular's in high gain and low noise. I know this from experience


----------



## Gtarzan81

@BluesRocker. Thanks for the tip!

That makes it roughly $60 instead. Not bad. As long as it still breaks up progressively, and has the crunch I love, I will be a happy man indeed.

Anyone have personal experience with the tubes I was suggested to get? I'm curious about what tonal changes to expect.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well. When I use current production tubes I use a Tung-Sol in V1 and a High Gain Mullard in V2. Now the Tung-Sol high gain I have not used. But I would say that it will sound good. The Tung-Sol is a really rugged tube and would work awesome in a combo.

And about the gold pin tubes I started a thread about them and caught all kinds of shit from it. Its quite funny. You should check it out. http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/10264-gold-pin-tubes.html


----------



## guitarman8

I put a Tungsol in V1 and use the long plate marshall tubes in the 1998 DSL401 combo I have and it now sounds great, I got this amp for just 400 bucks, it has Dags and had those long plate tubes. I even like the original gold speaker and I tryed a V30 in it. I thought the original was brighter plus way lighter. It's nothing to carry this amp out.

The JVM 410c I have is so heavy that I'm considering dumping it.


----------



## BluesRocker

What speakers does the JVM have in it. V30/H30 combination? or G12-T75's?

Just wait until you get those Marshall tubes out of there. Your tone will be 10000X better.


----------



## guitarman8

This one has the two different speakers, the V30 and other stock one - guess it's the H30. But it's a pig 78lbs no roadies around I'm on my own.


----------



## BluesRocker

Haha. You sound like me. I pack 2 4x12's and 2 heads. Usually the guys in the band help out. but when i get home I gotta load all that shit inside the house. And I am no body builder.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello all my fanatic tube fiends. Just popping in like late night.


----------



## BluesRocker

Lisa, where have ya been? Havent seen you around in a while. Everything going good?


----------



## guitarman8

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello all my fanatic tube fiends. Just popping in like late night.



Nice, back when I needed a bass player and bought my girfriend a original Hofner Beatle Bass. Vicky took to music well and I bought her a new white Fender Jazz bass with maple neck at Mannys in Mahattan. Her parents bought her a Accoustic 360 bass amp. Things worked great but guy members of the group didn't take to it too well, the losers. 
Glad to see you're playing music and Fenders my favorite.
Lets not forget the Marshall amp. Don't let any dudes bug you.


----------



## RobS

Marty,
Just picked up 2 more TungSol's. One for V1 in my 900 and one for V2 in the 800.

So far, 900 with TS in V1 and EH in V2 & V3........Very smooth, fat and definitley more/nicer mids. Tested through the powerbrake at full volume on both channels, chA gain at 10, ChB gain at 13(more of a solo boost). Very very impressed.
The gain stats for that TS are 132/134 oh yeah, it has JJ6l6gc's in the power section.

Now I have to swap out the Ruby in V2 of the 800 and put the TSol in there. The one I'm going to use has stats of 136/138. I'm going to leave the EH in V3. Winged C's in power

It's all fun.

Rob


----------



## MM54

Got back with two organs - the free Baldwin is a bust, solid state and weighs a shitton. My sister says she'll play it though so we managed to drag it into the basement.

The Wurlitzer is a better story - it's got 7 12AX7's labelled "Made in USA for Wurlitzer by RCA" and have the white print and slant-D getters. Also the two 6L6's, one's GE and one's RCA? I don't understand, although two of the 12AX7's had been replaced with - get this - groove tubes 12AT7's  so someone didn't know what they were doing. There's a 5U4 rectifier but I couldn't pull it out (socket is REALLY tight) to see what brand. The mass (28) of tubes we thought were 12AX7's are 12FQ8's, whatever that is. The bulk of them should get some money anyways.

And of course mom won't stop bitching because I bought something. She needs to learn that she can't control every single thing I do in my life -.-


----------



## Stymie13

What do ya think boys? What year did Baldwin stop putting Raytheon BPs in their organs?

1956 Baldwin and vintage Kimball organs


----------



## MM54

Here are some pictures, I like it. Are all those Sangamo Type-33 caps worth something? There's a shitload of them. There's also two nice looking 12 inch speakers.

Front view (yes, it's sitting on bricks - that part of the garage tends to get an inch of water in it when it rains, and it's storming at the moment):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Full.jpg

The 6L6's and 5U4:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Power.jpg

Main bit (28 12FQ8's and a ton of caps):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Main_Bit.jpg

Now the 12AX7's, which I almost missed because they're in the VERY top of the organ. There are three little 'sections' for some reason.

A lonely 12AX7 (RCA, 1960):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Lonley_12AX7.jpg

Middle section, all 4 are 12AX7's, RCA, stamped from 1960:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/4_12AX7.jpg

The end section, one more 12FQ8 and three 12AX7's, again RCA from 1960:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/12FQ8_and_12AX7.jpg


----------



## MartyStrat54

Strip out all the wire in as long of a piece as you can. I would start with the harness' first. Pull the 12-inch speakers as they are probably Alnico's. Check to see if you can find a power rating on the amp. Then you can guesstimate what the speakers are good for. Pull the power amp and list it on EBAY. You can get maybe $25 or so for it. Snip all of the caps and resistors. You'll have more spare parts than ever. After gutting her out, take her to the dump or leave by the curb. Some tube hunter will haul it off and not know it's been raped.


----------



## MM54

Sometime soon I plan to get into pulling it apart - right now the poor thing is cold and alone out in my garage - once I get another set of arms to move down into my shop (the one downside of a basement shop - STAIRS !) I'll pull the tubes and go from there. I got a new desoldering pump a couple weeks ago.

I've read about a couple cool little projects that a 12FQ8 can be used for. If you're not familiar with them, Marty (you probably know all about them anyways ), take a look at the spec sheet. They're weird as hell, and probably have potential for some crazy-ass applications.

What do you think the speakers might be worth/if they're a high enough wattage, what would they sound like as guitar speakers?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, the 12FQ8's are connected to the tone stops on the keyboard. They are responsible for generating all the different tones such as flute or clarinet.

Some companies used them and some did not. It is listed as a High-Mu, Twin Double-Plate Triode. In other words, some companies just used 12AX7's as a sub, even though they aren't actually subs. The 12FQ8 runs a 9KT base pattern. The 12AX7 runs a 9A base pattern. However, their construction is similar.

The heaters in a 12FQ8 are tied in series for 12.6 volt operation only.

I've seen some pretty high grade preamps made using the 12FQ8's.


----------



## MM54

I'm coming up with a plan in my head for a stompbox that runs a 12FQ8, just need to find the pinout 

On a side note, I have a handful of what I assume are capacitors (or perhaps resistors?) that looks like this, I figure I'll keep probing your brain, and ask what they're even called to know what I should google to find out about them 





Oh, and to keep on topic:
Preamp tubes are nice. I like NOS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a mica cap. See that arrow? That is the direction of current flow.


----------



## BluesRocker

So I am still new to this thread. Have came a long way from where I was over a year ago with tube amps. But I am really wanting to know is the anatomy of the tube. Like I know what the plates are and stuff. But I dont quite know a lot of the other terminology that you all use. Any help here?


----------



## RiverRatt

I could use that GE 6L6 - send me a PM if you're interested in selling it and the RCA. I have a few odd 6L6's and I'll take a chance on one of them matching up.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> So I am still new to this thread. Have came a long way from where I was over a year ago with tube amps. But I am really wanting to know is the anatomy of the tube. Like I know what the plates are and stuff. But I dont quite know a lot of the other terminology that you all use. Any help here?



Most of what we are concerned with are distinguishing marks that identify a particular manufacturer. The type and number of mica spacers used, the construction of the plates, the angle, size and shape of the getter, etc. Nail down a list of specific questions and I'm sure we can get them all answered for you.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well basically. I was wanting to know all the parts of the tube. Just something to know, ya know. I cant find a diagram anywhere, that's why I posted on here.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Well basically. I was wanting to know all the parts of the tube. Just something to know, ya know. I cant find a diagram anywhere, that's why I posted on here.



Check out this video. I thought it was pretty informative...

mullard tubes : mullardtubes.com


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Josh! Watching now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Spot on, Josh.+1


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks again Josh. Just finished watching it. very helpful. Now I will somewhat knwo what you guys are talking about now.


----------



## Michael1987xl

joshuaaewallen said:


> Check out this video. I thought it was pretty informative...
> 
> mullard tubes : mullardtubes.com



Man, talk about "They don't build 'em like _that_ anymore!"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah tube manufacturing was in full swing by 1935. The tube companies just added additional buildings to accommodate an increase in production, but the core of the plants were all going by 1935. I believe the peak year was 1961 or 1962. Everybody was already cutting back because of the transistor. 

The Blackburn plant had 6200 employees in 1961.


----------



## MM54

When I get situated, I'll let you know, Ratt.


Elsewise, I powered up the organ for the first/last time today (fitting that the last thing I played on it was a botched funeral march ) and it sounds like the caps are drying out more than the tubes being worn.

Anywho, after that I let it cool off (man, 35 tubes really throw the heat ) and pulled all the tubes and wiped some of the dirt off them (except the 12AX7's - I don't want to screw the labels up). In this process I realized that the 5U4 DOESN'T HAVE A KEY on the bottom part of the socket - there's just a little glass bit that comes out. I figured out how it went back in (doesn't really matter since it'll never be turned on again) by the 'bite marks' from the evil little retainers. Anyone know anything about it? It's a GE 5U4 labeled as being made in the USA for Wurlitzer by GE.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> When I get situated, I'll let you know, Ratt.



Thanks.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

Hey guys and gals,
Just stopping by to say hello. May was a month of travel for me. first to Disney with my son, then to Leesburg, VA for a wedding, and then to London for another wedding. 
I haven't bought any tubes in a while as I still have a bunch left, but I wanted to post this photo taken from the Gatwick Express, which goes from Gatwick Airport to Victoria Station in Central London; it's been manipulated in Photoshop.




TTYL
Serge


----------



## guitarman8

You know how you go tone deaf after a few hours of preamp tube shuffles one amp to another, well I had it with my DSL401 it was bothering me. So I put the Tungsol and marshall long plate in the JCM800 4210's 1&2. Then moved over the two Holland made 12ax7's to the DSL401. Finally happy with the DSL it got brighter and the distortion sounds better. No muddy slightly artificial distortion a more organic early days distortion. 

After a few more hours I'll probably hate it all over again. 

I see members have recipes for 1,2,3,4 and types of 12ax7's in a certain order, what's your favorite after trying many changes combo's etc? Tube type and sequence order?

By now there should be a consensus of what the holy grail combo is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Holy Grail is what sounds best to you. Is there a formula? Yes. It is basically one of several Philips tubes in V1, paired to a Raytheon Black Plate, High Gain in V2 with a Sylvania (or similar tube) in V3 and V4. Note: The V4 tube is preferred to be a high gain tube.


----------



## guitarman8

Sounds good, Marshalls can be made to have a great distortion but you have to work at it sometimes. Thanks for the tip.

The old 60's super lead was easy, volume at 8 and a Les Paul. I guess Strat users added the fuzz tone for the thin pickups. I didn't use Strats when I had that amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This tube is on EBAY being sold as a vintage RCA. What is wrong with this picture?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, it's a nice picture of a late model GE 12AX7 (or were you talking about the fugly background color?).

Is it just the angle, or is there no getter flash?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty. I am thinking about upgrading my V3 an PI tubes to some NOS. I remember on the phone you said that having a high gain PI really opens up the amp. 

So basically what would you recommend for the V3 and PI for my VM 2266?


----------



## RiverRatt

If you can lay your hands on a good Raytheon JRP, they seem to consistently be really high-gain 12AX7's, and they are pretty rugged and long-lived. If someone is advertising a Raytheon black plate and it has even traces of orange lettering on it, it's a JRP. 

I like them in V2 better than Marty does. They are better for the Ultra channel than the Classic. Lots of punch and harmonics. They don't seem to come to life until you drive them really hard.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> This tube is on EBAY being sold as a vintage RCA. What is wrong with this picture?



GEEEEEEE!


----------



## thrawn86

The getter looks mangled.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, it's a nice picture of a late model GE 12AX7 (or were you talking about the fugly background color?).
> 
> Is it just the angle, or is there no getter flash?



Yes, it is a GE. Let the buyer beware.

And yes Alan, that is an ugly 70's hue in the background. Lime Piss Yellow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty. I am thinking about upgrading my V3 an PI tubes to some NOS. I remember on the phone you said that having a high gain PI really opens up the amp.
> 
> So basically what would you recommend for the V3 and PI for my VM 2266?



Well to get you more bang for your bucks, I'm thinking a high gain Electrohome. Not super high gain but high enough that it will kick in the PI slot, but you could use it in V2 if you wanted. Now if you are happy with your tone, I would recommend a high gain Sylvania Gray Plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> And yes Alan, that is an ugly 70's hue in the background. Lime Piss Yellow.



LOL! It belongs in a room with mustard yellow walls and avocado appliances.


----------



## ken361

guys whats a good reading for a v1 tube say a tele. on a Hickok? or can you post some different tube testers readings. I know a high gain is 2300 to 2500 for a v2. Thanks much!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> guys whats a good reading for a v1 tube say a tele. on a Hickok? or can you post some different tube testers readings. I know a high gain is 2300 to 2500 for a v2. Thanks much!



Depends on the tester. Some Hickok's start good at 850 and others at 1250. 2500 is a great score on the 1250 tester.

Band K good starts at 22, but 30 is high gain. This is for 12AX7 type tubes. 65 for all other tubes.

TV-7 or 10 good starts at 32. 65 for all other tubes.

Eico's good starts at 65


----------



## ken361

whats a good score on a v1, say Hickoks? thx!


----------



## RiverRatt

I've had good luck with V1 tubes that test in the 1800-1900 range on a Hickock for V1 (1250=min. good). My favorite V1 tube - a Fisher-branded Telefunken smooth plate - tested right at 1850/1850 IIRC. I think the best sounding Matsushita I scored off Ebay was in the 1900's on both triodes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most tube testers have the red, yellow and green bands. Most tubes that are 65 percent or better are considered good. However, this can be misleading. For instance, the meter on my B and K goes to 120. 65 percent would really only be a little over 50 percent of this value, but that's how they have it set up.

The 22 figure for 12AX7's is actually about 80+ percent, which means a 20-20 tubes is still in the 70's.

I've had four B and K 707's. I've found that you really need to stick with one tester and get to know it and then you can get a feel for it. My first 707 was made in the very early 60's and had an annealed copper top. However, many of the tube sockets were worn out. After several trades on EBAY, I ended up with a late model 707 made in 1974. The top is not made of copper, but it is a much nicer tester. All the sockets are tight on it and everything works. For tube related test equipment, my 707 is new at 36 years of age.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I've had good luck with V1 tubes that test in the 1800-1900 range on a Hickock for V1 (1250=min. good). My favorite V1 tube - a Fisher-branded Telefunken smooth plate - tested right at 1850/1850 IIRC. I think the best sounding Matsushita I scored off Ebay was in the 1900's on both triodes.



your Amperex worked well in the v1


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's that time again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

6,000 post. Man am I tired.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> 6,000 post. Man am I tired.




Party time!!!!

Time to throw one back...as if we need a reason right hehe!!!!!!!

BELCH


----------



## rockinr0ll

MartyStrat54 said:


> 6,000 post. Man am I tired.



Don't stop, few months time you will hit 10,000.


----------



## ken361

20,000 gets you a new Marshall of your choice!


----------



## MartyStrat54

As a matter of fact, I did go out and party a bit right after hitting 6,000. Sorry I didn't hang around, but I didn't want anyone getting teary eyed.

20,000 gets me a Marshall of my choice? Oh boy...an AVT!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd like to hear the story behind that picture sometime. I mean, I wasn't convinced that I wanted to lick the frosting until I noticed the sprinkles. That's kinky.  

I love it when fate brings alcohol and the right woman together. I saw the best pair I ever saw (sorry, honey) at an office Christmas party.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What's with the dude in the background? It looks like he rubbed his eyes with a tennis ball.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder what killed my dancing bananas and the pom pom girls? They just died last night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see. They are dead back at the source. I can always count on this guy though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'd like to hear the story behind that picture sometime. I mean, I wasn't convinced that I wanted to lick the frosting until I noticed the sprinkles. That's kinky.
> 
> I love it when fate brings alcohol and the right woman together. I saw the best pair I ever saw (sorry, honey) at an office Christmas party.



I wonder if someone got to spread that icing on? Probably her kinky friend who is protecting her bare backside. You can bet bank that alcohol was involved in this picture. Two days later, she is telling the cameraman, "I can't believe you posted that up on the web!" Snicker, snicker.

I hope Lisa doesn't get herself involved in anything that can backfire. You hear me girl?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> What's with the dude in the background? It looks like he rubbed his eyes with a tennis ball.




This made me LOL! That would definitely make your eyes buggered...


----------



## RiverRatt

There was a guy in the picture? 

Marty, I thought that picture was from your last birthday party!


----------



## solarburn

Hey have any of you tried a Svetlana 12AX7? I don't remember seeing this...I must of missed it. Here's the link and description:Svetlana 12AX7

"I find the Svetlana 12AX7 tube to sound a bit smoother than the 12AX7EH and it has less gain than the Tungsol 12AX7 tube. If you are not inspired by the Electro Harmonix and also find the Tungsol too grainy then this is the 12AX7 tube you want to give a chance. It has everything you want in a good pre-amp. Low noise, no microphonics issues, and very clear and open without being too bright."


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got one, Joe. It came in my DSL. This is the old Svetlana (Winged C). The date stamp is 00 17, which means it was made in 2000 when Svetlana was still Svetlana. I've also heard that Svetlana didn't make preamp tubes, period. Check out the funky wide smooth plates and the huge bottle. I've never seen another tube like it. It's also stamped OTK which is some Russian military designation. It's not the worst sounding CP tube I've used, but I don't remember it being anything special.






The current Svetlana 12AX7 (Reflektor) is the same shit that Sovtek, Fender and Groove tubes sells. Same as a Groove Tubes 12AX7R. IIRC they made my amp sound like it had a blown speaker. 

Svetlana 12AX7


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got one, Joe. It came in my DSL. This is the old Svetlana (Winged C). The date stamp is 00 17, which means it was made in 2000 when Svetlana was still Svetlana. I've also heard that Svetlana didn't make preamp tubes, period. Check out the funky wide smooth plates and the huge bottle. I've never seen another tube like it. It's also stamped OTK which is some Russian military designation. It's not the worst sounding CP tube I've used, but I don't remember it being anything special.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The current Svetlana 12AX7 (Reflektor) is the same shit that Sovtek, Fender and Groove tubes sells. Same as a Groove Tubes 12AX7R. IIRC they made my amp sound like it had a blown speaker.
> 
> Svetlana 12AX7



K. I didn't notice it before but hell we could have talked about them pages ago and I've forgotten too. Thanks for the input. Thought the description was interesting...


----------



## thrawn86

Congrats on the 6000th Martimus. Crack a brew and rev the throttle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I don't know where they come off saying a Tung-Sol is grainy. That sounds like the Tube Store or Tube Depot. When they review a different tube, all of a sudden one or two others have to take a fall. I mean for Christ sakes, the EH is a friggin' $10 tube. For that price it ain't too bad as a V3 and/or V4. 

And if you read the Tung-Sol review it is like everything is there except the ice cream. Just to refresh your memory on how it's done. Here are some short reviews from Tube Depot.

1.EH 12AX7 - The spiral wound filament makes this a very quiet tube, perfect for modern high-gain. Crispy highs and great frequency response throughout the spectrum. All around great choice for all styles of music. (Marty's note: There is not much difference between this and a Chinese 7025 except the price.)

2.Tung-Sol 12AX7 new production - Beefy, clean and quiet. clean mid and treble response with plenty of headroom. Lush overtones, especially when overdriven. (Marty's note: See anything about "grainy?")

3.Sylvania 12AX7 NOS - Old-school warmth and tone with an affordable price...“Its like butta baby!” (Marty's note: Yeah, that's why I use them in V3 and V4.)

4.RCA 12AX7 NOS - Great gain, perfect clarity and frequency response. Awesome! Our favorite American NOS 12AX7. (Marty's note: Ah which RCA are you talking about? A 1958 D Getter or a 1974 Red Label?)

5.Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83 - Premium quality performance in every way. Quiet tone exuberance for every setting. (Marty's note: Does this apply equally to both smooth and ribbed plate Telefunkens?)

THE TUBE STORE REVIEWS

1.Tung-Sol 12AX7 - There are only so many ways to describe tube tone and most have become cliches. The Tung-Sol 12AX7 has the gain and drive of a Chinese 12AX7 and the pure tone of a Mullard or Brimar from the U.K. I've had two people come to me recently with amps they thought were in need of complete overhauls. In both cases, careful examination revealed no serious problems and all the tubes "tested" as good. At the end of the day, I replaced the NOS Mullard and RCA pre-amps (one in each amp) with a reissue Tung-Sol 12AX7. In both cases the owners were very impressed and thought that their amps had been restored to full health. Believe it or Not. (Marty's note: Yeah anytime you remove a worn out V1, anything you stick in is going to sound better. At least they used a Tung-Sol. The amp owner needs to learn a little more about tube amps. "What?" "The preamp tubes have been in the amp for 18 years." "You mean they're bad?")

2.Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 - These are not relabelled Sovtek 12AX7-LPS tubes. There is a marked difference in construction and performance. The 12AX7 EH has a nice balanced sound, fairly low noise floor and excellent performance in terms of microphonics. The lack of microphonics may be in part from the return of the shorter plate structure or materials.
I've had some samples that were tried in various amp stages. Pre-amps, tone stacks and phase inverters, a winner in every location, although I like to use a 12AT7 for reverb circuit drivers due to their lower gain rating (just a personal preference of mine).

I have used the EH to successfully tame amps that defied all other attempts to kill microphonics and unwanted feedback. This tube is a winner, buy 'em and try 'em, they may be just the piece you've been looking for. (Marty's note: Not a bad review for a 10 dollar tube. Again, spiral wound filaments like an RCA 7025 and the Sovtek LPS.)

3.Svetlana 12AX7 - For several years the original Svetlana 12AX7 tube from St. Petersburg (Winged "C"/SED) tried to develop a good 12AX7 and mostly failed. The current production Svetlana is a New Sensor product and is a member of 12AX7-EH and Tung-Sol 12AX7 family. All three of these tubes is virtually identical. The biggest difference seems to be in plate coating, gain and sound quality. I find the tube to sound a bit smoother than the EH and it has less gain than the Tung Sol. If you are not inspired by the Electro Harmonix and also find the Tungsol too grainy then this is the tube you want to give a chance. It has everything you want in a good pre-amp. Low noise, no Microphonics issues and very clear and open without being too bright. The construction is on par with the more expensive Tungsol. The price point on this 12AX7 tube is great because it will hold its own with more expensive options. Samples seem very reliable. If you like the JJ ECC83S but want something with a litter more glimmer this is where you should put your money. (Marty's note: Weren't these used as the "white label" OE Marshall tubes until Marshall realized they could get the "red labels" from China for less money? I'm not sold on these tubes at all. The Tube Store can say what they want, but it is based on selling cheap tubes with a higher profit margin. Here is where they got the "grainy" review.)

4.JAN-Philips 12AX7WA - If you really want NOS (New Old Stock) tubes, this is one of the best buys out there. The Philips tube is well built and should be long lasting. The tubes I tested had lots of gain while still maintaining very good noise levels and good tolerance for microphonics. The tone was solid in the midrange with very wide dynamic response. If you're not careful with your setup, you can get these tubes to be boomy in the bottom end and shrill in the high end. I found that they were great with the tone controls set flat. Great in both combo amps and monster stacks. (Marty's note: What we have here is the last version of an American 12AX7 made for military use. Everything about this tube reeks with cardboard. Boomy and shrill? Yep, that describes this 12AX7 perfectly.)


----------



## solarburn

That about sums up the tactics. As you can see it was from the Tube Store. Got to sell them tubes by words first hehe. But wait...if you think this tube is great...this one covers what the other 2 don't. Ahh they capture the imagination with lil' bits of descriptive hype full of goodie goodness.

Well bottom line for me is actually try'n a tube and deciding how it sounds in my amps. They can paint that pretty picture but I have to know for realz. That be'n said only a few ever interest me. Its not like I buy everyone of them to see hehe. At least not anymore cause I already have...oh shiznitz!!!!!!!!

At least they grease ya before sticking it in...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Have you ever wondered what it would be like to do a blind test with preamp tubes? Say just five different tubes using a mono tube amp and two speakers.

The test CD would be a medley of five songs, all rock of course. Ballad to heavy metal.

You sit in a recliner and the test begins. The tubes to be tested are a Sylvania Gray Plate, 1959 RCA D Getter, Bugle Boy, Telefunken Smooth Plate and Mullard.

How do you think you would do?


----------



## siav

Hi,

I just bought a 6100 LM and I'd like to change preamp tubes to have a less gainy and more defined tone. At the moment, it sounds a bit muddy and unclear.
At home, I don't have any low gain preamp tubes (I only have 12AX7s).

This amp has 7 preamp tubes and my focus is the lead channel which is driven by V2 (shared both with crunch/lead channel) to V5. Therefore, I need 4 tubes to change, my budget is quite limited (don't want to spend $150 in there...).

Thanks for your help!


----------



## Dr. Rawk

Preamp tubes come in all different flavors. You have Russian, Chinese, etc etc..... They all sound different.

My suggestion is to start with a set of power tubes that give you what you are looking for in your EQ spectrum and then start interchanging 12AX7's in your V1 preamp spot until you find one that suits your needs. Once you find the perfect V1, start interchanging V2's and so on and so forth until you see what it is that works best for you.

Keep in mind, unlike power tubes, you do not have to use the same brand or type of 12AX7 in each socket. They do not have to be matched. In my JVM410h head I run a Tung Sol 12AX7 in the V1, three Penta Labs 12AX7M Mullards in V2-V4 and a Sovtek LPS in the Phase Inverter. Make sure that you at least use a 12AX7 with balanced triodes in the Phase Inverter. In my head, all of my 12AX7's have balanced triodes. It is not necessary to have all your 12AX7's balanced. I just like to have them that way so that if I interchange them that any of them can go in the phase inverter. And I think it helps to have a balanced triode in the V1 as well but again it's personal preference. The difference in price??? About $3.00 a tube.


----------



## ken361

Dr. Rawk said:


> Preamp tubes come in all different flavors. You have Russian, Chinese, etc etc..... They all sound different.
> 
> My suggestion is to start with a set of power tubes that give you what you are looking for in your EQ spectrum and then start interchanging 12AX7's in your V1 preamp spot until you find one that suits your needs. Once you find the perfect V1, start interchanging V2's and so on and so forth until you see what it is that works best for you.
> 
> Keep in mind, unlike power tubes, you do not have to use the same brand or type of 12AX7 in each socket. They do not have to be matched. In my JVM410h head I run a Tung Sol 12AX7 in the V1, three Penta Labs 12AX7M Mullards in V2-V4 and a Sovtek LPS in the Phase Inverter. Make sure that you at least use a 12AX7 with balanced triodes in the Phase Inverter. In my head, all of my 12AX7's have balanced triodes. It is not necessary to have all your 12AX7's balanced. I just like to have them that way so that if I interchange them that any of them can go in the phase inverter. And I think it helps to have a balanced triode in the V1 as well but again it's personal preference. The difference in price??? About $3.00 a tube.



I have a penta M in my for v2 for now until I get a black plate. The "M" tubes have some good gain for the v2 They look really close to Mullards and even flash! I have 3 in my stock. Too bad they cant build them like that anymore.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I don't know where they come off saying a Tung-Sol is grainy. That sounds like the Tube Store or Tube Depot. When they review a different tube, all of a sudden one or two others have to take a fall. I mean for Christ sakes, the EH is a friggin' $10 tube. For that price it ain't too bad as a V3 and/or V4.
> 
> And if you read the Tung-Sol review it is like everything is there except the ice cream. Just to refresh your memory on how it's done. Here are some short reviews from Tube Depot.
> 
> 1.EH 12AX7 - The spiral wound filament makes this a very quiet tube, perfect for modern high-gain. Crispy highs and great frequency response throughout the spectrum. All around great choice for all styles of music. (Marty's note: There is not much difference between this and a Chinese 7025 except the price.)
> 
> 2.Tung-Sol 12AX7 new production - Beefy, clean and quiet. clean mid and treble response with plenty of headroom. Lush overtones, especially when overdriven. (Marty's note: See anything about "grainy?")
> 
> 3.Sylvania 12AX7 NOS - Old-school warmth and tone with an affordable price...“Its like butta baby!” (Marty's note: Yeah, that's why I use them in V3 and V4.)
> 
> 4.RCA 12AX7 NOS - Great gain, perfect clarity and frequency response. Awesome! Our favorite American NOS 12AX7. (Marty's note: Ah which RCA are you talking about? A 1958 D Getter or a 1974 Red Label?)
> 
> 5.Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83 - Premium quality performance in every way. Quiet tone exuberance for every setting. (Marty's note: Does this apply equally to both smooth and ribbed plate Telefunkens?)
> 
> THE TUBE STORE REVIEWS
> 
> 1.Tung-Sol 12AX7 - There are only so many ways to describe tube tone and most have become cliches. The Tung-Sol 12AX7 has the gain and drive of a Chinese 12AX7 and the pure tone of a Mullard or Brimar from the U.K. I've had two people come to me recently with amps they thought were in need of complete overhauls. In both cases, careful examination revealed no serious problems and all the tubes "tested" as good. At the end of the day, I replaced the NOS Mullard and RCA pre-amps (one in each amp) with a reissue Tung-Sol 12AX7. In both cases the owners were very impressed and thought that their amps had been restored to full health. Believe it or Not. (Marty's note: Yeah anytime you remove a worn out V1, anything you stick in is going to sound better. At least they used a Tung-Sol. The amp owner needs to learn a little more about tube amps. "What?" "The preamp tubes have been in the amp for 18 years." "You mean they're bad?")
> 
> 2.Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 - These are not relabelled Sovtek 12AX7-LPS tubes. There is a marked difference in construction and performance. The 12AX7 EH has a nice balanced sound, fairly low noise floor and excellent performance in terms of microphonics. The lack of microphonics may be in part from the return of the shorter plate structure or materials.
> I've had some samples that were tried in various amp stages. Pre-amps, tone stacks and phase inverters, a winner in every location, although I like to use a 12AT7 for reverb circuit drivers due to their lower gain rating (just a personal preference of mine).
> 
> I have used the EH to successfully tame amps that defied all other attempts to kill microphonics and unwanted feedback. This tube is a winner, buy 'em and try 'em, they may be just the piece you've been looking for. (Marty's note: Not a bad review for a 10 dollar tube. Again, spiral wound filaments like an RCA 7025 and the Sovtek LPS.)
> 
> 3.Svetlana 12AX7 - For several years the original Svetlana 12AX7 tube from St. Petersburg (Winged "C"/SED) tried to develop a good 12AX7 and mostly failed. The current production Svetlana is a New Sensor product and is a member of 12AX7-EH and Tung-Sol 12AX7 family. All three of these tubes is virtually identical. The biggest difference seems to be in plate coating, gain and sound quality. I find the tube to sound a bit smoother than the EH and it has less gain than the Tung Sol. If you are not inspired by the Electro Harmonix and also find the Tungsol too grainy then this is the tube you want to give a chance. It has everything you want in a good pre-amp. Low noise, no Microphonics issues and very clear and open without being too bright. The construction is on par with the more expensive Tungsol. The price point on this 12AX7 tube is great because it will hold its own with more expensive options. Samples seem very reliable. If you like the JJ ECC83S but want something with a litter more glimmer this is where you should put your money. (Marty's note: Weren't these used as the "white label" OE Marshall tubes until Marshall realized they could get the "red labels" from China for less money? I'm not sold on these tubes at all. The Tube Store can say what they want, but it is based on selling cheap tubes with a higher profit margin. Here is where they got the "grainy" review.)
> 
> 4.JAN-Philips 12AX7WA - If you really want NOS (New Old Stock) tubes, this is one of the best buys out there. The Philips tube is well built and should be long lasting. The tubes I tested had lots of gain while still maintaining very good noise levels and good tolerance for microphonics. The tone was solid in the midrange with very wide dynamic response. If you're not careful with your setup, you can get these tubes to be boomy in the bottom end and shrill in the high end. I found that they were great with the tone controls set flat. Great in both combo amps and monster stacks. (Marty's note: What we have here is the last version of an American 12AX7 made for military use. Everything about this tube reeks with cardboard. Boomy and shrill? Yep, that describes this 12AX7 perfectly.)



Marty the GE WA same as the Jan philips?


----------



## rykus

hey all, never really got to much feedback on the brimars so i ended up sourcing some out on e bay.... also got a moollon compresor, i think its the first pedal my girl was as stoked as i was (she's an artist) to see. we should all put up a list of the tubes we've tried in V1 and how it sounds. i got all backwards when i changed out my v2 v3 and forgot... doh! any one see the dynaco with the XF1 mullards for 500 bucks.... i was counting change but couldn't get 650 outa .25 cents, damnit anyways thought i'd check in see whats new. i remember my friend made a pretty funny home vid of a party girl, she came by after how many people did you guys show that to? honestly, everyone we know... next weekend another vid of same girl, some people just like the attention


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Marty you know alot of women on face book lol that blond damm!



Yeah she and I are good friends. I just joined and I had a bunch of people want to be my friend. I couldn't say no to the women.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Marty the GE WA same as the Jan philips?



Well there towards the end, Philips had the military contract for making tubes. I feel the 6550's weren't that good either as they had been beefed up for use in B-52's. (Replacing 6L6GC's.)

Just remember that Ken-Rad made GE tubes until they closed in 1986. If you have an older GE WA, it is probably fine. Is the date code still on the tube? 

I have posted before about the early WA's versus the later WA's. There's no comparison in tone.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well there towards the end, Philips had the military contract for making tubes. I feel the 6550's weren't that good either as they had been beefed up for use in B-52's. (Replacing 6L6GC's.)
> 
> Just remember that Ken-Rad made GE tubes until they closed in 1986. If you have an older GE WA, it is probably fine. Is the date code still on the tube?
> 
> I have posted before about the early WA's versus the later WA's. There's no comparison in tone.



75-30 or75-48 or 33/72


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> 75-30 or75-48 or 33/72



Okay, that would be 30th week of 1975, 48th week of 1975 and 33rd week of 1972.

The main thing is how they sound to you in the slot that you have them in.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, that would be 30th week of 1975, 48th week of 1975 and 33rd week of 1972.
> 
> The main thing is how they sound to you in the slot that you have them in.



just the PI, its not too bad sounding


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those should work great there. Anymore, I use any good USA tube for the tone stack/cathode follower and PI. I do however like to use high gain tubes for the PI. These are tubes that have too much gain for V1 or V2, but they work really well in the PI slot. Gives the amp a more open feel, especially at low to medium volume levels.


----------



## MM54

(Thread revived from Page 3)

Any good NOS finds recently, guys?


----------



## rykus

well i finally got my brimar tubes so i think i have pretty much 2-8 of every concievable tube made.... i like the brimar alot, i pulled a pretty strong mullard out of V1 witha particularily good blackplate in V2 and an electrohome holland tube in V3. stuck the brimar in, resulting in a nice overall sound not quite as gainy as the blackburn mullard but still loud and full, with alot of grit if ya dig in a bit more. really nice overall effect, very full sounding. i will try and re roll some tube now that i have a really good base in my choise of v2 v3 where as before i had a weaker bp and an older rca wich gave les volume and body than the current settup not as full so i used more eq and volume. now i can leave everything at 5 and get really consistent results... just that mullard sounded so good i forgot to roll for a while. anyways have a good night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the run down. It looks like you have been busy locating tubes. You can never have too many, he-he-he.

A lot of people like a strong Mullard in V1. Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> (Thread revived from Page 3)
> 
> Any good NOS finds recently, guys?



Page 3? Hell, I was a year younger than I am now.

Well, I'm constantly buying tubes. Recently, I scored 8, 1959 RCA D Getters for $81. This is probably one of RCA's best sounding tubes.

I scored several quads of DYNACO/Telefunken smooth plates.

I won four green label Mini Watts from Paris, France.

Just the usual weekly tube buying. Missed out on more than I bought.


----------



## rykus

ya they don't make em like they did back in the day, gotta buy em now and since i have too many amps i'm gonna need em. i try and use some CP tubes too when i'm playing alot whith drums ect and in my less cherished amps. my practice amp (pignose 40w all tube) i find its nice to use the good pre amp tubes as it makes a huge difference in tone on the lower volumes. then i put them in sets that sound exceptional and move em to the bigger heads! i know i have a good set when i just jam and forget about the sound then i'm like holly shit that sound awsome and look in the back. oh yeah its those tubes! i'm going to give that amp to my dad though and get a little class 5 they look super sweet and be way better @5 w than 40w i'll get a bit more power amp crunch and only 2 pre tubes and 1 power. and its a marshall!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> 8 1959 RCA D Getters for $81. This is probably one of RCA's best sounding tubes.



Nice, I have one of those (or something similar) in V1, I like it.



MartyStrat54 said:


> I scored several quads of DYNACO/Telefunken smooth plates.
> 
> I won four green label Mini Watts from Paris, France.
> 
> Just the usual weekly tube buying. Missed out on more than I bought.



Nice. I'm still waiting for my flatrate boxes to get here so I can start selling off some stuff to finance a few other things haha. The good news is that school ended today so I _should_ be working full time by next week  That means money for tubes, etc.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello all out there. It's the ghost of R n R's past. Roll call.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Alan, Joe, Marty, Thrawn???


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm here. Finished your PM. You've been busy. Glad to have you back.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

It's wild thinking back a few weeks ago. It was almost depressing. Now everything is better than it was. Rock and roll is a funny business. It's like getting married. You'd better know the person standing next to you in front of the minister.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, you're hitting the sweet spot. Anything could happen. I think you should really work out a Vegas act. However, the clubs expect two hour shows of original music and if you do covers, they usually have you play six sets a day. Are you up to that?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Right now I would have to say no we can't do Vegas. We have two hours of covers and originals and we do a mixed show. Vegas is union, right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, you have to be in the union to play Vegas. They take taxes out and all the other BS. However, I had a friend who was making $600 a night in Vegas and he played for a year and a half. My brother-in-law from Phoenix played Vegas and he was making $500 a night.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just did a quick check and it looks like Joe has signed off and the crowd has thinned out.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, I go in late tomorrow. It's one of my short days. I did want to tell you that I left you a response about getting the JMP. Wow, that's sweet. Are you done for a while, or is there something else on your mind?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well thank you. I don't know the answer to that. It's a buyer's market right now. If something sweet should pop up, I might have to grab it.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well Marty, I'll let you go. I guess I should have tried to get on earlier. I can't believe I missed everyone. I left Joe a couple of messages on his home page. Damn. Just call me Miss Tardy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you want to hang that's okay, or if you want to cruise the forum, that's okay too.

PM me when you are signing off.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, I think I will take a look around before calling it quits.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I'll see you when you come back. Don't be such a stranger. I'll tell the gang you were here. BYE!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I'll try to be back sooner. I enjoyed talking to you. Bye-bye.


----------



## thrawn86

Hey guys....nice to see the 'friendlys' in here tonight....just breezin' thru.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Good afternoon. Happy to see you too.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I'm done cruising. I was too afraid to go to the Noobs thread. I bet that is wild as in wildly popular. Okay, I'm signing off. I'll catch you gents at an earlier time. Watch out. I may be on tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry - I've been on with eBay support trying to get my life back, and rewiring a guitar only to fuck up and have it to do over tomorrow night to see where I fucked up. As soon as get these EMG's wailin', I'm putting a JRP in V1 and V2 and shaking the nails out of the walls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't think that Fenders liked those high gain tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Har har har. May your 2204 be filled with spare parts from a MIG fighter. 

If I get it fixed tonight, it'll be too late to crank anyways.


----------



## solarburn

Alright Lisa where the hey are ya????


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Here I izz, DOM.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Here I izz, DOM.



Haha! Gotcha ya first!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Missed you last night. I was hoping that you were still on.


----------



## solarburn

So its a Tuesday evening and you're having a lil' "unwind-age" then...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

How's all the gear doing? That DSL still singing sweet for ya?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah, I went in late today and got off early. You know that I do like my scotch. I very rarely party with anything else. I get stoned every once in a while. My vice is scotch.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> How's all the gear doing? That DSL still singing sweet for ya?



Yeah its good. The Monza too! All these guys get'n new stuff though makes me want to aquire something...I don't know what...

I hear the band is get'n along good now...?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah, I went in late today and got off early. You know that I do like my scotch. I very rarely party with anything else. I get stoned every once in a while. My vice is scotch.



Mines pizza and I really want some now!!!!!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I don't let it interfere with my job or my responsibilities. When I got a few days of no responsibilities, that's when I like to cut loose.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I got a great family run place just down the street from my loft. Great pizza. They have the brick ovens and all the authentic cooking techniques.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I don't let it interfere with my job or my responsibilities. When I got a few days of no responsibilities, that's when I like to cut loose.



Yee Haw! I'm a loose goose as it is so I'm always ready to cut loose with my peeps here! Too bad we didn't have a lil' blues/rock club to throw some back at and have some jam sessions. You and the guys here would be a slick time if we could. Now thats unwinding and cutt'n loose.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah its good. The Monza too! All these guys get'n new stuff though makes me want to aquire something...I don't know what...
> 
> I hear the band is get'n along good now...?



Yeah, I was talking to Marty about it last night. Rock n roll is a funny business. Down one day and excited the next. It's amazing how a member change can affect the entire band. In this case, for the better.

Yeah that Monza is a bad momma. You got a really sweet amp there.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> I got a great family run place just down the street from my loft. Great pizza. They have the brick ovens and all the authentic cooking techniques.



Gawd I love pizza! That sounds great. Its been awhile too. Trying to watch my girlie figure ya know...

My mouth is watering...slurp!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yee Haw! I'm a loose goose as it is so I'm always ready to cut loose with my peeps here! Too bad we didn't have a lil' blues/rock club to throw some back at and have some jam sessions. You and the guys here would be a slick time if we could. Now thats unwinding and cutt'n loose.



That's why I like the rock crowd. They are always ready to party. My co-workers can be a little uptight, but I've gotten a few of them to bust loose.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is this a table for two, or can a friend sit in?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah, I was talking to Marty about it last night. Rock n roll is a funny business. Down one day and excited the next. It's amazing how a member change can affect the entire band. In this case, for the better.
> 
> Yeah that Monza is a bad momma. You got a really sweet amp there.



Its loves tasty licks played through it. Really glad I got it. Glad the new person worked out!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Damn Marty, it's about time. Where you been?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is this a table for two, or can a friend sit in?



Thar ye is! Sit back and take load off...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Joe what's going on? I see you made it.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Joe what's going on? I see you made it.



Finally...at the same time!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Thar ye is! Sit back and take load off...



Thanks dude. I told Wilder I was going to charge him for my new SIG. I told him it is on over 6,150 posts. Now that's advertisement.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks dude. I told Wilder I was going to charge him for my new SIG. I told him it is on over 6,150 posts. Now that's advertisement.



You got a hell of a point hehe!!!!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Wow. Yeah he should pay you for that. I can read it from across the room.


----------



## solarburn

The Wilder gangs out to play.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You got a hell of a point hehe!!!!



Well the other night I was tired, but Jon had given me the pricing on both amps and I was happy with the figures.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Wow. Yeah he should pay you for that. I can read it from across the room.



Might give that "hot pink" page of yours some competition hehe.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the other night I was tired, but Jon had given me the pricing on both amps and I was happy with the figures.



I'm glad, I know you were wondering about that. Good deal.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the other night I was tired, but Jon had given me the pricing on both amps and I was happy with the figures.




Good to hear that worked out. Can't wait to hear....all of them.LOL


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Might give that "hot pink" page of yours some competition hehe.



Hey I like that!


----------



## solarburn

Can't believe I got to be here at the same time the girl is.

Made my day!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey, ya think anyone will get upset that we aren't talking tubes here?


----------



## solarburn

We just did. TOOBS!

There.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey, ya think anyone will get upset that we aren't talking tubes here?



Well this thread is so large that I think we can do whatever we want. We sort of run the place he-he-he.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

You guys are the best. I used to belong to another forum and the guys treated me like a bitch invading their space.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We just did. TOOBS!
> 
> There.



Oh, the little ones. Not the big one's. Ah, 12AX7's I believe.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> You guys are the best. I used to belong to another forum and the guys treated me like a bitch invading their space.



That ain't right at all! Stoopid attitude to have! We a family here.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, the little ones. Not the big one's. Ah, 12AX7's I believe.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That ain't right at all! Stoopid attitude to have! We a family here.



Thanks Joe, I appreciate that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hell Lisa, how many tube threads have a rocker like you? You're always welcome here.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks Marty. You're the best. BTW-Where's the Josh man at?


----------



## solarburn

I'm think'n more of the gang will show up soon...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey Marty, I found one of the red Strat Ultra's, but they want $2800. Lord it's beautiful.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Thanks Marty. You're the best. BTW-Where's the Josh man at?



Josh is prolly play'n the heck out of his amp. Another Wilder...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey Marty, I found one of the red Strat Ultra's, but they want $2800. Lord it's beautiful.



Oh lord my favorite color scheme. That is one beautiful guitar. Do you know if it has a red lace sensor in the bridge, blue in the middle and gold in the neck?


----------



## solarburn

Gonna make a samich guys. Carry on I'll be close.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh lord my favorite color scheme. That is one beautiful guitar. Do you know if it has a red lace sensor in the bridge, blue in the middle and gold in the neck?



Yeah, I remember for sure that it had a red in the bridge. Maybe a blue in the middle. I can't remember what was in the neck.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Yeah, I remember for sure that it had a red in the bridge. Maybe a blue in the middle. I can't remember what was in the neck.



Why does good gear always have to be 2 or 3 thousand dollars minimum? Man, I am on this amp binge and now you remind me of the ULTRA STRAT. 

I have pictures saved on my computer and a website devoted to them.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty, I just got a call that I got to take. I'll try to get back on. Sorry. Tell Joe that I'll try to be back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Marty, I just got a call that I got to take. I'll try to get back on. Sorry. Tell Joe that I'll try to be back.



Alright. Try to make it back if you can. I enjoyed talking with you. I want to hear more about that red ULTRA.


----------



## solarburn

Got it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another unique finish on some of the Plus, Plus Deluxe and Ultra Strats and Teles is the Fire Storm finish. This is the red one. Marty want.


----------



## thrawn86

Must be nice to be filthy rich........


----------



## MartyStrat54

I launder all my money. It's clean as a whistle.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't believe it... I insulted Marty's 2204 and didn't even get a rise? What's a guy gotta do around here?

I feel like celebrating. I'm home from work and it's not even midnight. Cyber beers for everyone! 

Thanks for the OCD, Joe. I'm hoping to get that byotch by Friday so I'll have the weekend to get my pickup wiring sorted out and check out some Fulltone goodness. Whatever I decide about the tube, I'll send you a JRP and anything else interesting I can find to try out. If you want to know what I've got, check out the photo of the top of my amp a few pages back... about half of them are sitting on top of it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good grief...is that how you do your inventory?

"Yeah, I'll take the 12AX7 that is under the KISS sticker next to the pencil and the deck of playing cards."


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Another unique finish on some of the Plus, Plus Deluxe and Ultra Strats and Teles is the Fire Storm finish. This is the red one. Marty want.



hot guitar!


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is Black Sables price list for the Tube Depot. Check out the price of a frozen Raytheon Black Plate! I'm putting mine in the freezer right now.

http://tubedepot.com/bsct.html


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good grief...is that how you do your inventory?
> "Yeah, I'll take the 12AX7 that is under the KISS sticker next to the pencil and the deck of playing cards."



I told you I've been putting in late hours! 

Neatness is the first thing to go when you're too tired to give a shit. 

I started cleaning up stuff last Sunday and found a few choice items for eBay. I had an old '80's Kahler tremolo lying around and stuck it on there at $35 and it's had around 100 hits and 20 watchers. It may pay for a Fulltone OCD courtesy of Joe. I had an old set of Fender "F" tuners from a '60's neck with bushings and screws. I'm hoping they'll do good. I'm also selling my namesake - a Rat pedal - and it's getting a lot of lookers. Maybe gear is starting to move well again. I'm afraid to list any tubes as I took a beating with the last batch I listed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man your work hours are starting to freak me out. Do you shoot mice at night with a pellet gun? What exactly are you doing staying there so late? Are you publishing?

What did you think about that $500 Black Sable Raytheon Black Plate?

Ridiculous.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, I'm publishing my ass off. Literally. I've lost 20 lbs over the last couple of months. Last week I put in a 20 hour day and a 21 hour day back-to-back. I'm just now feeling normal again (or what passes for it).

If I pay that much for something with metal and glass, either my wife is gonna wear it on her finger or I'm going to drive it to work. There must be a small market out there of audiophiles (I always hated that word - sounds like they molest stereo equipment) who are either sophisticated or gullible enough to hear the difference between a regular Raytheon black plate and one that's been to absolute zero.

You know what we need to do? We need to hunt down all that Russian space debris and pull the tubes from it. You know it had to have used tubes. Think about what being exposed to all that radiation and temperature extremes would have done to them. They are probably the best-sounding audio tubes on the planet! We market them and sell them in lead-lined boxes for $100,000 each, or $1,000,000 for a matched quad. There would be a surcharge if people in Hazmat suits have to come to your house and install or bias them.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is Black Sables price list for the Tube Depot. Check out the price of a frozen Raytheon Black Plate! I'm putting mine in the freezer right now.
> 
> http://tubedepot.com/bsct.html



This is as bad/worse as GT's snake oil!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Come on Joe. $499 gets you a real frozen honey of a tube.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Come on Joe. $499 gets you a real frozen honey of a tube.



A $500 Popsicle...what tonality it must maketh!!!!!

Maybe they would trade my Night Train straight across for one...:eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I just scored a couple of Matsushitas for $12 shipped. Hoping and waiting...

I've been down on eBay tubes for awhile. Maybe these two will change my mind. It seems like so many of these two-tube deals are always one good one and one bad one. Usually the price is just low enough that you waste whatever you gained shipping the bad tube back, so most people don't bother.






I think the one on the left looks like a long plate. What do you think?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think I saw those. I'm not moving them very well, so I quit buying them. I think the slant tops sound pretty good, but not like a slant top Valvo. 

I can't tell from that picture what size the plates are, but they both appear to be the same.

$12 bucks is worth the gamble.


----------



## MM54

$12? Nice, that's less than you'd pay for a CP tube so it's worth it to take the chance that one's dead 

Edit: Dang it, Marty beat me to making that comment while I was catching up on this thread


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know a lot of people are always bitching that, "NOS tubes are too high!" I have been saying for over a year now that, "You're wrong."

If a person is willing to do a three page search under "12AX7's" on EBAY and earmark the one's they are interested in, I guarantee that you can get four NOS tubes for between $60 and $80. Japanese tubes are still considered NOS, because the Japanese were set up and making tubes for American companies back in the Fifties. As I said, I don't bid on Japanese tubes right now, but they are a real bargain. A Raytheon "Select" or "Registered" are both Japanese tubes. These can be bought for about $12 to $15 each.

Most Marshall amps have a tone stack/cathode follower tube. This is a very demanding slot due to the cathode follower. The plate voltage can exceed what a current production tube can handle. With this in mind, a trusty old Sylvania Gray Plate in this slot will handle that higher plate voltage. 

Now it is real easy to pick up a USA Raytheon Gray Plate or older RCA and use it in V1. These are also in auctions of just a single tube and they go for about $20.

So if your amp is a DSL100, you could get an RCA slant D getter for V1, a Raytheon Gray Plate for V2 and a couple of Japanese tubes for V3 and V4. This will make a vast improvement in your tone and cost you about as much as four Tung-Sol's.


----------



## ken361

Marty I need a good high gain v2 tube, your Mullard is pooping out I had to put a Tungsol in there, Out of all my tubes i dont have any really decent v2's let me know plz


----------



## RiverRatt

Get you a couple of Raytheon black plates so you'll have a spare. They are that good in V2. 

How is the Mullard "pooping out"?

Beers to everyone! I stopped at my favorite beer store on the way home tonight. They were selling Newcastle pints for $1.29. Cheers!


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Get you a couple of Raytheon black plates so you'll have a spare. They are that good in V2.
> 
> How is the Mullard "pooping out"?
> 
> Beers to everyone! I stopped at my favorite beer store on the way home tonight. They were selling Newcastle pints for $1.29. Cheers!



Gain is not as strong, been playing alot this year because im off work


----------



## ken361

when you guys play loud then you do some shredding or solo stuff the amp compresses more so how do smooth it out? I have a analog delay in the signal but still doesnt help much.


----------



## solarburn

Marty I found the original line up I first used when you sent me some NOS. You wrote stuff down for me so I had a clue as to where to put them. This is how my first line up went and I liked it.

V1- RCA 12AX7A medium gray plates tested at 23/25
V2- RCA 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 23/25
V3- GE Sylvania 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 24/25
PI- Magnavox(Japan) 12AX7A tested at 21/23 

Currently I'm running this:

V1-Slant getter Matsushita
V2-Slant getter Matsushita
V3-Electrohome
PI-NIB, NOS 1970's prewar EI Edicron Label


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty I found the original line up I first used when you sent me some NOS. You wrote stuff down for me so I had a clue as to where to put them. This is how my first line up went and I liked it.
> 
> V1- RCA 12AX7A medium gray plates tested at 23/25
> V2- RCA 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 23/25
> V3- GE Sylvania 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 24/25
> PI- Magnavox(Japan) 12AX7A tested at 21/23
> 
> Currently I'm running this:
> 
> V1-Slant getter Matsushita
> V2-Slant getter Matsushita
> V3-Electrohome
> PI-NIB, NOS 1970's prewar EI Edicron Label



you get that EI from tube monger? not that good as a V1?


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> when you guys play loud then you do some shredding or solo stuff the amp compresses more so how do smooth it out? I have a analog delay in the signal but still doesnt help much.



Its only gonna get so smooth. I like mine a bit rough or raw sounding anyways. The more HIFI the less I like it. I'm assuming you have reworked the preamp section tube wise already. 

Speakers and power tubes. What speakers? What do you have in the power section? JJEL34L's will smooth out the highs. I'm one who really likes this tube in my DSL. The Green crunch channel is the open channel as far as not compressing like the other 2. Got to use a pedal to shred there though and that can add compression too. The right speakers can make a big difference here. Thought about trying any speaker changes?

Too bad you couldn't post a clip and say exactly what part you want to improve. I kinda get it but man that would be useful. The EH6CA7's have great articulation and would be good for shredding. Great note separation or definition. Big open sounding tube to my ears. My favorite.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> you get that EI from tube monger? not that good as a V1?



Yes and yes. It is a good V1 but I am liking the way the Matsushitas cut in V1 and V2 mid wise. Plus they are dynamic and roll off well.

I may get another EI and slap it in the PI of my Monza as I already have a Telefunken in V1. Actually I think this EI makes a good tube anywhere.


----------



## ken361

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yes and yes. It is a good V1 but I am liking the way the Matsushitas cut in V1 and V2 mid wise. Plus they are dynamic and roll off well.
> 
> I may get another EI and slap it in the PI of my Monza as I already have a Telefunken in V1. Actually I think this EI makes a good tube anywhere.



I just put greenback 25watts in which sound alot better then the stock g12t75,amperex in the v1, v2 tungsol untill marty hooks me up i hope, v3 v4 EH which I think they sound smooth there,GE jan PI


----------



## ken361

my clips sound great with the line out going to the PC


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> I just put greenback 25watts in which sound alot better then the stock g12t75,amperex in the v1, v2 tungsol untill marty hooks me up i hope, v3 v4 EH which I think they sound smooth there,GE jan PI



I bet a RCA in V1 and a Raytheon BP would be smooth. V3 and the PI aren't big contributers as tone shapers so just a decent offering there is good enough. Out of V3 and the PI I would try and tone shape the PI, not V3. I still would roll V1 and V2 to find some smoothness.

I'm using a 412 of GB's. I get nice hairy(not fizzy)tones out of mine oozing with Raunch and Roll so smooth I don't get. I still think something like G12-65's or Marty has been messing with alot of Eminence speakers and I'm sure would know which ones offer some smoothness.


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> my clips sound great with the line out going to the PC



Its hard to get a amp/cab to be smooth. To me there is always a bit of harshness in translation with amp and cab only. Depends where you stand and room acoustics too. I don not like the sound right straight in front...ever. I always like to be off axis one way or another. 

I've got some acoustic foam squares with the centers cut out and they really help control high peaks. Pretty much sounds the same whether you are in front of it or off axis. Its a great trick and it works. I'm surprised more peeps don't use it. Most just speculate how it doesn't help without actually trying it. I don't bother telling people about it cause they're too busy with the same old. Besides its helpful but not a must have.


----------



## ken361

I have my cab off the wheels now, i might go back to it since theres a lot off bass already


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty I found the original line up I first used when you sent me some NOS. You wrote stuff down for me so I had a clue as to where to put them. This is how my first line up went and I liked it.
> 
> V1- RCA 12AX7A medium gray plates tested at 23/25
> V2- RCA 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 23/25
> V3- GE Sylvania 12AX7 Tall gray plates tested at 24/25
> PI- Magnavox(Japan) 12AX7A tested at 21/23
> 
> Currently I'm running this:
> 
> V1-Slant getter Matsushita
> V2-Slant getter Matsushita
> V3-Electrohome
> PI-NIB, NOS 1970's prewar EI Edicron Label



Oh my! I remember that, especially the Japanese Magnavox (which was probably a Matsushita). You do realize that this all took place about a year ago. Look how far we have come. I was more into hardcore USA tubes. You guys got me interested in the High End stuff. With that came an increased education in tube quality and tone.

Well Joe, it certainly wasn't a high gain set by any means. It would probably sound swell in Alan's Fender.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to pay for buying that big bitch. A trumpet player I've worked with is putting together a small jazz/blues combo. He tried to give me the sax book but I wanted the guitar! Now I'll have to lug that 4x10 monster around every week. This'll be the first outing for it, too. I may take the Marshall to the first rehearsal just to scare the hell out of them.

I hired an employee this week! She doesn't know when she'll be able to leave her current job, but hopefully in a week or two I'll have seen the last of those 20-hour workdays.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In the late 70's, I bought a Peavey 6-10 combo in tweed with the controls on the top. I was also playing a Tele. Within two months I sold both. Lugging a 6-10 cabinet was just to much and it took up a lot of room in a car. If it was present day, I doubt if I could even fit it a Sentra.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to pay for buying that big bitch. A trumpet player I've worked with is putting together a small jazz/blues combo. He tried to give me the sax book but I wanted the guitar! Now I'll have to lug that 4x10 monster around every week. This'll be the first outing for it, too. I may take the Marshall to the first rehearsal just to scare the hell out of them.
> 
> I hired an employee this week! She doesn't know when she'll be able to leave her current job, but hopefully in a week or two I'll have seen the last of those 20-hour workdays.



Hey Ratt Man! How ya been mate? Good news on your prospect of being able to cut back on work soon. Way to go. Having steady work is a good thing, but there _actually can be_ too much of a good thing. All I know is the older I get the more I realize that there's more to lie than my job. Anyhoo...

Hey... I just noticed that you have your location as being "between Nashville and Memphis". Just curious... Where abouts? I was just through Nashville, and stayed w/ my friends in Cookeville, over Memorial day weekend. I love it down there. I didn't make it to Chattanooga this time around, but I love to go driving through there... At any rate... It'd be cool to connect and have a beer or jam one of these times I head down that way...


----------



## RiverRatt

Shout next time you're down this way. I'll see what we can do. I can definitely name a few places to drink a beer in Nashville. I'm actually near Pickwick Lake along the Tennessee River. It's only about 2.5 hours from here to Nashvegas. We get up there now and again. I'm actually closer to Memphis than Nashville, but we don't go to Memphis unless we have a reason.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sweet. That'd rock.


----------



## Gtarzan81

RiverRatt said:


> Shout next time you're down this way. I'll see what we can do. I can definitely name a few places to drink a beer in Nashville. I'm actually near Pickwick Lake along the Tennessee River. It's only about 2.5 hours from here to Nashvegas. We get up there now and again. I'm actually closer to Memphis than Nashville, but we don't go to Memphis unless we have a reason.


Is good barbecue a good reason?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. I guess what I mean is, if we're just kicking around, we go to Nashville. We live closer to Memphis and we go there, but it's usually something specific like a concert, meeting, event, appointment, etc... Memphis has changed a lot over the last 10-15 years and a lot of the places I liked to hang out aren't there anymore.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Yup. I guess what I mean is, if we're just kicking around, we go to Nashville. We live closer to Memphis and we go there, but it's usually something specific like a concert, meeting, event, appointment, etc... Memphis has changed a lot over the last 10-15 years and a lot of the places I liked to hang out aren't there anymore.



I've never been to Memphis so can't rightly say anything about it. But if you like catfish and fired pickles Cock of The Walk in Nashville is _good eats! _I salivate just thinking about it. I wanted to check out the tour of the luthier shop at the Gibson store down there but, wouldn't ya know it, the shop was closed! But I had some fun making some noise w/ all the various Les Paul's & 333's they had there...


----------



## RiverRatt

Demo's is downtown and is pretty good. One of my favorite restaurants in Nashville is The Sunset Grill in the Vanderbilt area. If we're hanging out downtown, we usually end up at the Big River grill down close to the river for brew and burgers. They are a microbrewery and have a stout that is worth checking out. I haven't been up there since the flood - I hope they made it OK. That area had some deep water.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to Memphis just to eat. I left Fayetteville, AR, so the first stop was Ray's in West Memphis. Really good. Great combo dish. Wasn't this the place on National Geographic? They did a TV series on the best BBQ places and all I remember is that a place in Memphis was #1 and the main cook was this old black guy who had been cooking there for over 25 years. It was fresh on my mind and is what prompted me to go to Memphis, so I know that I ate there and I want to say it was Ray's.

Anyway, later in the evening we ate at Top's Bar-B-Q. It too was very good.

The next afternoon, we ate at the Rendezvous. Nice place, great Baby Backs and sausage.

You got to sort of stay in a certain area in Memphis and that's too bad. It has really decayed from all the meth tweakers. This was 2004.

I know that the highway patrol is brutal about drug stops between Arkansas and Tennessee. Some claim they are violating peoples rights in regard to how they conduct the drug searches.


----------



## Gtarzan81

How are the CP Svetlana 12ax7's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I'm going in that price range, I would go with EH. Personally, I don't like Sovtek's, Svetlana's or the lower line of Chinese tubes. It's a simple equation. You get what you pay for.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, sorry to be such a pest but I picked up a Jackson Model 598 tester today (free stuff rocks) and was wondering if you know much about them? I have pictures for later, I'm on my phone right now. (I also got, for free, two decent sized boxes of misc tubes, most are things I've never heard of, but there's at least one mullard 12ax7 and a few ge 12ax7s in the one box, and the other one I haven't gone through yet, but most of them are NIB.)

Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went to Memphis just to eat. I left Fayetteville, AR, so the first stop was Ray's in West Memphis. Really good. Great combo dish. Wasn't this the place on National Geographic? They did a TV series on the best BBQ places and all I remember is that a place in Memphis was #1 and the main cook was this old black guy who had been cooking there for over 25 years. It was fresh on my mind and is what prompted me to go to Memphis, so I know that I ate there and I want to say it was Ray's.
> 
> Anyway, later in the evening we ate at Top's Bar-B-Q. It too was very good.
> 
> The next afternoon, we ate at the Rendezvous. Nice place, great Baby Backs and sausage...





RiverRatt said:


> Demo's is downtown and is pretty good. One of my favorite restaurants in Nashville is The Sunset Grill in the Vanderbilt area. If we're hanging out downtown, we usually end up at the Big River grill down close to the river for brew and burgers. They are a microbrewery and have a stout that is worth checking out. I haven't been up there since the flood - I hope they made it OK. That area had some deep water.



You guys are makin' me hungry! I'll bet a guy could get a nice big chuck of brisket at these places too, eh?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lots of brisket. Hell Marty makes damn good brisket.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is an emission tester. One of the last models made before they got into dynamic mutual transconductance testers, such as the 648.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Lots of brisket. Hell Marty makes damn good brisket.



Mmm... Better get-er goin' as I'll be there in a bout 14 hours w/ BIG appetite! 

Ok... Maybe not right now... But I am a sucker for a good brisket.


----------



## RiverRatt

Try Interstate Barbecue next time you're in downtown Memfis.

Brisket? Is that like barbecued beef or something?


----------



## BluesRocker

Memphis is the place to get barbecue. Plain and simple.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

​
Brisket can be cooked many ways. Popular methods in the Southern United States include rubbing with a spice rub or marinating the meat, then cooking slowly over indirect heat from charcoal or wood. This is a form of smoking the meat. Additional basting of the meat is often done during the cooking process. However, most of the tenderness from this normally tougher cut of meat comes from the collagen fibers that make up the significant connective tissue in the cut, which gelatinizes and lubricates the muscle fibers, resulting in more tender brisket despite the fact that the cut is usually cooked well beyond what would normally be considered "well done". The fat cap often left attached to the brisket helps to keep the meat from over-drying during the prolonged cooking necessary to break down the connective tissue in the meat.[1] A hardwood, such as oak, pecan, hickory, or mesquite is sometimes added, alone or in combination with other hardwoods, to the main heat source. Sometimes, they make up all of the heat source, with chefs often prizing characteristics of certain woods. The smoke from these woods and from burnt dripping juices further enhances the flavor. The finished meat is a variation of barbecue. Once finished, pieces of brisket can be returned to the smoker to make burnt ends. Smoked brisket done this way is most popular in Texas.


----------



## Gtarzan81

BluesRocker said:


> Memphis is the place to get barbecue. Plain and simple.



Near Austin Texas is THE place to get Barbecue! Check out Kreuz's and Smitty's in Lockhart. Also, the Salt Lick in Driftwood. Best bbq I've had, hands down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh lord, it's becoming the "Food Thread." That's all I need to see is a big ole brisket that is mouth watering. Texas, Tennessee...it's all good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

2


----------



## MartyStrat54

1


----------



## MartyStrat54

5,000 Posts!!!



Thanks to each and everyone of you. I had just noticed that it was nearing 5,000 and jumped on it. You all are great!


----------



## racko7566

MMMMM.... meat, ive been away for a while and I miss everything, meat , 5000th post, tube testers. Damn it........


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, you've been away for a while. Josh is back now. He's the guy who started this thread. I always like to go back and read the first page. It makes me laugh.

Glad to have you back Racko. My big news is that I bought a couple of old school amps and they are getting modified by Jon Wilder. Please see my billboard...I mean SIG.


----------



## MM54

Alright, I'm on a proper computer so I can post a couple pictures now 

Here's the tester:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Tester_Whole.jpg
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Tester.jpg
It's nice, works great (tested a bunch of tubes earlier today, see below) but there isn't a Noval (the big 9-pin) or Compactron (12-pin) socket, which left out a lot of tubes. The roller with data is from 1959 so there were a bunch of other tubes that I don't have the numbers to test. Until I get a mutual conductance tester, this is great!

So here are the boxes of tubes:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Boxes.jpg

Kind of messy, but a lot of glass, a good few are NIB.

Here's the first box (smaller one) sorted out (includes a bunch of 9- and 12-pin ones I can't test ):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Box1.jpg

And the larger one (without the 9-and 12-pin ones I can't test):
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/Box2.jpg

What's with the one that's really heavy and has a quarter inch-thick lead coating with an x-ray warning ? It's on the far left, the dark black one.

Long story short, there aren't very many tubes I can use, but it's something to kill time and make a few bucks on. A lot of the tubes test at 100% or right around there. It's disappointing on the ones that you press the button and the needle dives down to 0 though 

And do you believe that in that whole lot, there's only one 12BA6? I needed two to get my radio working again


----------



## thrawn86

Barbeque, 5k posts and Marshall. What a perfect Sunday evening.  (oh, and 2,400 for me!)


----------



## solarburn

"I want to ride my bicycle"

You've been Queened!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the tester looks like it is in good condition for its age. Man, that's a lot of tubes. Too bad they aren't exotic 12AX7 tubes and 6L6's and such.

Yeah, my tester will test all you have except the four pin.

What are the numbers on the Novar tubes? 7868? If you have any of those that are good, they bring $30 to $40 a piece on EBAY.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the tester looks like it is in good condition for its age. Man, that's a lot of tubes. Too bad they aren't exotic 12AX7 tubes and 6L6's and such.
> 
> Yeah, my tester will test all you have except the four pin.
> 
> What are the numbers on the Novar tubes? 7868? If you have any of those that are good, they bring $30 to $40 a piece on EBAY.



Yeah, looking down into the boxes at first there were a couple 6AC7s that, in dyslexic optimism, looked like 6CA7 

The tester is great inside, the outside of the box is totally beat to hell  That handle is missing, which is bothersome, other than that though the only thing I had to do when I got it was knock the dusty white corrosion off the moving parts of the roll of numbers and solder that clip for the top of some tubes back onto its lead.

There are weird 8-pin tubes that don't have the normal base, they have really thin and short pins on them - I've only had one or two test good, but they're very odd.

I'm not sure what numbers are on the novar tubes, I have the ones I can't test in a bin (carefully set in, not thrown in like they were in the box, though >.<). I'll take a look through them as soon as I get through the second box sorting what I can't test from what I can, and the good from bad.

Some of those old 4- and 5-pin tubes are pretty epic, even if just to look at. You think I should bother with getting numbers off the 12-pin tubes too, or are they a totally dead technology? I'd never seen one until I got these.

Edit: Also, did you see in the picture of the larger box (the second one laid out) the one tube with the 1/4" thick lead coating? It has a warning printed on it about x-ray radiation


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, a lot of old tubes were manufactured with nasty toxic materials, so be careful and don't break any of those old tubes. Your babies may be born naked.


----------



## BluesRocker

Been tube rolling all day today. Switching out some NOS tubes in the VM again. I left the Ray. BP in V2. Did have a high gain Philips in V1 but I put it in the PI slot and put the lower gain Philips in the V1. But one thing that I noticed is that when I turn the amp on the PI tube (NOS Philips) flashes bright then goes the way it should. Like when it flashes it looks like a light bulb and only does it when the amp is off for a few hours. Anything wrong here?


----------



## RiverRatt

Some tubes are cold-cathode x-ray emitters. You've got a really interesting collection. Some of the lightbulb shaped tubes in the first picture look like the really old ones that get the tube collectors salivating.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> But one thing that I noticed is that when I turn the amp on the PI tube (NOS Philips) flashes bright then goes the way it should. Like when it flashes it looks like a light bulb and only does it when the amp is off for a few hours. Anything wrong here?



No, everything is fine, they are made that way. Many tubes light up in the base from a cold start. Most of them are Philips tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Marty. Also I tried something different tonight. I put the BP in V1, the High Gain Philips in V2, the low gain Philips in V3 and a CP Tung-Sol high gain in the PI and that sounds pretty damn sweet. I might have to invest in a few more Philips and BP from ya


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you have a handful of good tubes, it makes rolling just that more enjoyable.


----------



## MM54

So Marty, What do you think about a side-getter 12AU7? There's one sitting on my bench, I've never seen a mini 9-pin with a side getter before. I believe it's relabeled Zenith, but the stamp designating "12AU7" looks very RCA-ish.

Also...

There's also a tube that all that remains of the label is a 7. I think there was an X before it, and it looks inside just like a 12AX7, so I'll have to test it as a 12AX7 and see how it goes . Stamped into the glass on the bottom in the middle is a backwards F. Mean anything?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, it's probably an RCA. Could have been made by Sonotone as well. It isn't worth sticking in your amp. The gain would go down the drain.

If you can post large, clear pictures. Alan or I could probably ID it.


----------



## MM54

I'll go take some.

In the mean time, does the backwards F on the other one mean anything (ie. manufacturer)?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It may be a clue, but it's not ringing a bell right now.


----------



## MM54

My camera sucks, so sorry for the wait  Diregard the pink background, it's an old rag, the cleanest light-color one I could find down there to use as a backdrop 

Here's a couple pictures of the side-getter 12AU7. It's interesting.
Side:




Side:




Top (no seams, or getter for that matter):





And here's the mystery one. I haven't been able to make sense of any of the labeling other than 'Made In Gt Britain'

Side:




Side:




Bottom (you can't really see the backwards F...):




Top (there is a seam, down the middle [not into quarters like some I've seen]):





So there ya go  Sorry for the inconsistent pictures, like I said, my camera is junk. Half the time it doesn't flash when it should.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that top one is definitely an RCA side-getter 12AU7. I've got a few of those NOS-NIB. Not much use for them in guitar amps. There were a few RCA side-getter 12AX7s made sometime during the 1950's. I don't believe they made very many at all. Every one I've seen was relabeled "Sonotone" as Marty said, with the exception of one labeled "Fisher". They are actually my favorite RCA and sound great in V1 in a Marshall, but they are so rare I'm afraid to put much playing time on them. The side getter tends to be noisy in combo amps. Here's a shot from when I found my first couple of Sonotone (RCA) side getter 12AX7s. For some reason, only one made it into the picture. It's second from the left. The one on the right is a clear top 12AU7 like yours. This haul came out of one Hi-Fi set I bought for $10. I just wish they'd used two EL84/6BQ5's instead of the one ELL80.






I'm curious about that bottom tube. What if any marks are on the tube other than "Made in Gt. Britain"? If it's a Mullard, you should find two codes etched into the glass low on one side. The top one will be "I63" or something similar, and the bottom code will most likely be four digits and begin with a "B". If you can find that info, we can tell you exactly what you have. I've seen tubes with numbers and symbols molded into the bottom glass, but I don't know anything about them except that a diamond (square) means it's a Telefunken.

Here's a picture of an I63 (12AX7/ECC83) Mullard. Note the start of the "B" (Blackburn) code on the lower right side.


----------



## MM54

I'll take a look tomorrow after work, Alan, there may be some numbers like that, I don't remember though.

Do you still have those tubes? I see "BA6" in one - is it a 6BA6 or a 12BA6? The radio in my shop sounds like shit because one of the 12BA6s in it tests at like 40% and I don't have a replacement


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got two Raytheon 6BA6's. I've got a couple of old RCA and GE record players lying around and I'm not sure what they have in them. If I find anything, I'll let you know. You're welcome to the 6BA6's if you can use them.


----------



## MM54

Ah, I have a bunch of 6BA6 too, sadly they'll explode if I put them in for a 12BA6 

I just got back from work so I'll go look for numbers, etc, on the mystery tube.


----------



## MM54

Alright, etched near the base of the tube (upside-down by my standards, to read it, the pins point up) is:

I61
32K2 (The 3 might be a B, I dunno, it's harder than hell to read)


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I'm curious about that bottom tube. What if any marks are on the tube other than "Made in Gt. Britain"? If it's a Mullard, you should find two codes etched into the glass low on one side. The top one will be "I63" or something similar, and the bottom code will most likely be four digits and begin with a "B". If you can find that info, we can tell you exactly what you have. I've seen tubes with numbers and symbols molded into the bottom glass, but I don't know anything about them except that a diamond (square) means it's a Telefunken.



That one with the clear top? Looks like a Brimar plate structure on that, ive got a mullard labelled as Brimar that has a B factory code and the standard phillips plate design. So it feesable that a Brimar plate design may have a blackburn factory code on it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Alright, etched near the base of the tube (upside-down by my standards, to read it, the pins point up) is:
> 
> I61
> 32K2 (The 3 might be a B, I dunno, it's harder than hell to read)



I'll almost guarantee that it's a B. Mullard was really good about marking tubes (unlike some Philips factories), and that is a stereotypical Mullard code. It was made in the Blackburn plant in the 2nd week of August, 1962. They switched over to the short plates around 1960, and the type code changed from I61 to I63 around 1964, so all that checks out. Great tube! How does it sound?


----------



## MM54

:eek2:

I haven't put it in my amp yet (don't know how it even tests) to know how it sounds - I have a handful of 12AX7's that need testing, I'll probably do that later.

I'll see if there are similar markings on any of them and let you know.

I need some boxes for these guys... I'll add that to my next order from Tube Depot haha

(Alan - I'll also test those 6L6s in a few minutes when I go to do the 12AX7s and let you know their %s)


----------



## eljeffebrown

here we go. Thrawn sent me. you know my head. I wanna go JJ free and I wanna go High Gain, Way High! Help me out my brothers! you can add power tubes in here also just so'z I don't have to post over there but if I have to I will!  Thanx a bunch in advance!


----------



## MM54

Well eljeffe in a couple days when I finish rolling, I'll have a bunch of suggestions for preamp tubes 

To others - The Mystery Mullard tested very good (and flashed at startup), and another one (Marked "IEC Mullard") tested even better. Hopefully tomorrow I won't be too tired after work (doubtful, we're still roofing) and will get a chance to move them around with the GEs and RCAs I have sitting around and see how they sound.


----------



## eljeffebrown

sounds good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

eljeffebrown said:


> here we go. Thrawn sent me. you know my head. I wanna go JJ free and I wanna go High Gain, Way High! Help me out my brothers! you can add power tubes in here also just so'z I don't have to post over there but if I have to I will!  Thanx a bunch in advance!



Okay I went back and read your previous posts. I could have swore that I left you an answer about 4500DR's.

Anyway, if someone sold you a high gain pack for a 4500, they should be shot. The only tube in the preamp circuit is V1. V2 and V3 are not in any gain stage and V4 in the phase inverter.

As I have said before, the best tube is a high gain Raytheon Black Plate. This tube seems to smooth out the amp and give it a tighter bottom end.

EDIT-V2 not in the preamp circuit and V3 is the PI.


----------



## MM54

(Pssst, Marty... v4 in a 900DR is a power tube - there's only 3 preamp tubes )


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> (Pssst, Marty... v4 in a 900DR is a power tube - there's only 3 preamp tubes )



Changes made. Thanks. I slip every now and then.


----------



## MM54

I do too, probably more often than I should for my age , although sometimes I just think I'm slightly dyslexic. 

More literally speaking it would be very bad for my to slip at work this week - we're doing a roof that's too steep to walk. Got the back half done today (it's not as steep as the front) and should do the front half tomorrow if it doesn't rain. Weather channel says 60% chance. I'm hoping it just stays cool and cloudy until we're done


----------



## thrawn86

6-12 pitch? Or worse?  Dad was a roofer in one of the hottest climates in the U.S.

WaAAAAAaat? Marty Slipped?   I am sooooo shocked.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't panic. It was on a 900DR. I basically said two tubes didn't do anything, when in reality it was one tube that didn't do anything. Not really a major mistake. More like a teeny weeny slip.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay I went back and read your previous posts. I could have swore that I left you an answer about 4500DR's.
> 
> Anyway, if someone sold you a high gain pack for a 4500, they should be shot. The only tube in the preamp circuit is V1. V2 and V3 are not in any gain stage and V4 in the phase inverter.
> 
> As I have said before, the best tube is a high gain Raytheon Black Plate. This tube seems to smooth out the amp and give it a tighter bottom end.
> 
> EDIT-V2 not in the preamp circuit and V3 is the PI.



ok so don't worry about V2 and V3 and just leave 'em JJ's? I wanna go JJ free here Marty. Also power tubes, what should I run or am I gonna have to go post over on the power tube thread to get an answer?


----------



## RiverRatt

If you're considering current production power tubes, my favorites are the GT EL34M or Winged C. IMO the Winged C tubes do everything pretty well and have a fairly tight low end response, and the EL34M's are a little warmer with looser bass and smoother upper mids and highs. If you like old-school AC/DC rhythm tones, Def Leppard, and other classic rock along those lines, pony up for a set of RFT EL34's. They will cost you about double the Winged C's or GT's but they'll last about 2 or 3 times as long and have that classic Marshall sound in spades. I love cranking the DSL up at least to 4 or 5 with the RFT's on the Classic clean channel. I roll off the presence and even the treble a little and it nails the pre-Back in Black Malcolm Young tones.

Also remember that power tubes respond way differently depending on how they are biased. The EL34M's seem to like to be biased about 6mV colder than the RFT's or Winged C's. I've been running my amp at 42mV with the RFT's ever since I got them from Marty whenever that was, and they don't drift at all. I can check them after 3 months and they won't be more than a few tenths from where I left them. With the CP tubes I felt like I had to keep a constant watch on them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Power Tube Talk On The Preamp Tube Thread... It's all good!*



RiverRatt said:


> If you're considering current production power tubes, my favorites are the GT EL34M or Winged C. IMO the Winged C tubes do everything pretty well and have a fairly tight low end response, and the EL34M's are a little warmer with looser bass and smoother upper mids and highs. If you like old-school *AC/DC* rhythm tones, _*Def Leppard*_, and other classic rock along those lines, pony up for a set of RFT EL34's. They will cost you about double the Winged C's or GT's but they'll last about 2 or 3 times as long and have that classic Marshall sound in spades. I love cranking the DSL up at least to 4 or 5 with the RFT's on the Classic clean channel. I roll off the presence and even the treble a little and it nails the pre-Back in Black Malcolm Young tones.
> 
> Also remember that power tubes respond way differently depending on how they are biased. The EL34M's seem to like to be biased about 6mV colder than the RFT's or Winged C's. I've been running my amp at 42mV with the RFT's ever since I got them from Marty whenever that was, and they don't drift at all. I can check them after 3 months and they won't be more than a few tenths from where I left them. With the CP tubes I felt like I had to keep a constant watch on them.



OK... Now you've got my attention! ... ... I may have to look into this a little more (I play a lot of stuff off "High 'N Dry")...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> If you're considering current production power tubes, my favorites are the GT EL34M or Winged C. IMO the Winged C tubes do everything pretty well and have a fairly tight low end response, and the EL34M's are a little warmer with looser bass and smoother upper mids and highs. If you like old-school AC/DC rhythm tones, Def Leppard, and other classic rock along those lines, pony up for a set of RFT EL34's. They will cost you about double the Winged C's or GT's but they'll last about 2 or 3 times as long and have that classic Marshall sound in spades. I love cranking the DSL up at least to 4 or 5 with the RFT's on the Classic clean channel. I roll off the presence and even the treble a little and it nails the pre-Back in Black Malcolm Young tones.
> 
> Also remember that power tubes respond way differently depending on how they are biased. The EL34M's seem to like to be biased about 6mV colder than the RFT's or Winged C's. I've been running my amp at 42mV with the RFT's ever since I got them from Marty whenever that was, and they don't drift at all. I can check them after 3 months and they won't be more than a few tenths from where I left them. With the CP tubes I felt like I had to keep a constant watch on them.



Hell yes to both and yes again to the colder bias. I think the 34M's took over 1st place for me. Fat articulate lows, smooth rich mids and singing smooth clear highs that stay defined and present with guitar volume roll off. I could careless if anybody gets these but I'm sport'n them loud and proud. Besides Black Sable has taken the crown for "Snake Oil" marketing IMO...

I have read where a few guys who actually have the Mullard XF2's and the 34M's tell they are very close in sound. I've been do'n alot of check'n cause I'm anal like that and surprised GT has put out a winner IMO. There were some negative reliability comments and experiences but no more than other tubes I use. There were alot more bad press on the GT preamp tubes failing. I don't use them. I use what I like which have been tried and tested in my amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

*Re: Power Tube Talk On The Preamp Tube Thread... It's all good!*



joshuaaewallen said:


> OK... Now you've got my attention! ... ... I may have to look into this a little more (I play a lot of stuff off "High 'N Dry")...



I'm talking more like the "Photograph" intro from Pyromania. To me, the green channel on the DSL is where the magic lies, and I would be perfectly happy to use only the clean mode with the gain dimed and the master on at least 4. That and a boost pedal when you need a little more dirt. Well, I can't leave out my tuner, wah, and Deja Vibe, but that's it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Power Tube Talk On The Preamp Tube Thread... It's all good!*



RiverRatt said:


> Josh, you're confusing my already fuddled brain. I keep thinking I've clicked on the wrong thread...



You know me bro. I always do what I can! 



RiverRatt said:


> I'm talking more like the "Photograph" intro from Pyromania. To me, the green channel on the DSL is where the magic lies, and I would be perfectly happy to use only the clean mode with the gain dimed and the master on at least 4. That and a boost pedal when you need a little more dirt. Well, I can't leave out my tuner, wah, and Deja Vibe, but that's it.



Oh yeah! That opening riff to Photograph... Mmm, mmm, mmph! Tasty. Simple, uncomplicated, but just lights yer fuse. That intro gives a head's up on why Steve Clark was also know as "The Riff Miester". He was a genius at those types of amazingly simple, but never before done, sorts of riffs, Too bad he's gone.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

So... Once again... This affirms that given my at home, relatively low-volume playing situation... Power amp tubes really are a significantly lesser part of the equation for me?


----------



## MM54

thrawn86 said:


> 6-12 pitch? Or worse?  Dad was a roofer in one of the hottest climates in the U.S.
> 
> WaAAAAAaat? Marty Slipped?   I am sooooo shocked.



Its between 10-12 and 12-12 pitch (closer to 12-12). Quite a challenge to get up, even with the roof jacks. It was in the mid 80's today, humid, and sunny.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

The obvious no brainer is that I really don't "need" a 100W Marshall... But screw needs, I love this amp. So too bad, so sad... So... As I've asked before... For an at home player am I _really_ better of concentrating almost totally on my pre-amp instead of my power-amp?


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> So... Once again... This affirms that given my at home, relatively low-volume playing situation... Power amp tubes really are a significantly lesser part of the equation for me?



Not necessarily. To me, the RFT's do make a difference at lower volume, but it's like everything else Marshall - the louder, the better. The GT EL34M's that Joe's been talking about sound good at low volume. I could hook you up with some samples if you want to only run two power tubes. Everything I have is in pairs except for an ancient quad of Sovtek EL34G's. You can have them if you want them (and I can find all four). They were touted as a Russian copy of the RFT's. I don't think I've ever put them in the DSL - they came out of my old Laney 100 watt head. I have no idea how much life they still have.

EL34G:





GT EL34M:


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Not necessarily. To me, the RFT's do make a difference at lower volume, but it's like everything else Marshall - the louder, the better. The GT EL34M's that Joe's been talking about sound good at low volume. I could hook you up with some samples if you want to only run two power tubes. Everything I have is in pairs except for an ancient quad of Sovtek EL34G's. You can have them if you want them (and I can find all four). They were touted as a Russian copy of the RFT's. I don't think I've ever put them in the DSL - they came out of my old Laney 100 watt head. I have no idea how much life they still have.



Whatcha lookin' for outta them mate? I'm interested in trying some options out... Don't even mind buyin' (sinse I currently have no spare power tubes at all (EL34's or 6L6's)... But... As a result of GAS I am in the middle of getting my sustainer recived and passed on to install...

Kn ow what ah' mean Vern?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Plus... I've never tried running only two out of my four power amp tubes before... Might be an adventure...


----------



## RiverRatt

Let me get past this production deadline so I can think. I'll probably be back on tonight or early tomorrow morning sometime. The wife is in Nashville and the kids are with my parents, and my only thought is, "Will the neighbors get pissed if I dime the Marshall at 2 a.m.?"


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Let me get past this production deadline so I can think. I'll probably be back on tonight or early tomorrow morning sometime. The wife is in Nashville and the kids are with my parents, and my only thought is, "Will the neighbors get pissed if I dime the Marshall at 2 a.m.?"



Tale as old as time my friend. No worries. We'll talk later. Hasta pronto!


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, the neighbors didn't get pissed. I didn't get home until about 2:30 a.m. and I had an empty house and the Fulltone OCD that Joe sent me, so guess why I'm still up? That's one motherfucker of a pedal (can you say that here?). Now I'm doing what you were doing earlier - trying to get to sleep via chemistry and alcohol. I've got to be back at it by about 10 a.m. so Thursday is gonna suck hard, and I've got my first rehearsal with a new band tonight. I don't know if I'm gonna be up to copping Terry Kath licks. It may come off sounding a little slllloooowwww. I'd blow it off but that just doesn't look good. "Oh great, the guitar player is too fucked up to make the first rehearsal" kinda thing. I'm actually a pretty sober person during daylight hours, but a year and a half of trying to keep a new business afloat is kicking my ass. You gotta have a release somewhere.

Anyhow, I don't really want to sell the EL34M's, but if you want to play with them for awhile I'm cool with that. PM me if you want to give them a shot and I'll send them an the Sovteks too if you want. The Sovteks actually sounded pretty good to me in the Laney head. They are older production, not the new Reflektor crap. The only thing I'm worried about is that they are old Russian tubes and I'd hate for one to crap out and take a transformer with it. They seemed fine when I had them in the Laney, though. Like I said, shoot me a PM and we'll work something out.

Talk to you later... I'm starting to see double.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, those are some big ass preamp tubes. Groove Tubes, huh? They won't fit in my sockets. Must take a mod for that.

Up for your viewing consideration are five real RFT ECC83's made in East Germany. These tubes have the nice short plates with extra heavy getter flash. They all test nice. I got them for $49.90 with $10 shipping from POLAND.

Yeah, I have been having to go to the four corners of the earth to find the obscure and desirable tubes. Tubes like Mazda, Mini Watt, Valvo and others. They are all overseas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would like to add that in some of my deals, there were sour notes. Some have been rectified and I'm still working on a couple. I've said it before. That 707 in my Test Dept. is worth it's weight in gold. Had a guy on a Telefunken deal send me some tubes and two of them were like 10-12 and 17-19. In his ad he claimed they all tested as new. He was gambling that the buyer wouldn't have a tester. Period. His ad said, "No returns," but he is taking these two tubes back. He knows I'll leave neg feedback. I let him know that I am upset for having to spend my money on insurance, delivery confirmation and postage in regard to two worthless tubes. I think he sees where I'm coming from.


----------



## solarburn

Those RFT's are sure perty hehe. I can get one of those for $40...and thats on the cheaper side of the online stores. Most are going for $60...for 1.

Yeah I keep getting lost between the power tube thread and here. Few brain cells not firing off in the right order. Those 34M's sound great at volume. The family's visiting Grandma in Eastern WA so I moved the amps out to the living room. Maybe I should ask the neighbors how they sound at volume...? They may tell me without ask'n pretty soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Or their friend Officer O'Malley will be the one to visit you. Make sure you have fresh donuts on hand.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Or their friend Officer O'Malley will be the one to visit you. Make sure you have fresh donuts on hand.



Yeah that's about it too. Actually they be pretty cool around here unless Officer O'Malley is too drunk to find the place hehe. 

My stepson says to me "how can you be in the same room with that"? "That's F'n loud man"!!!!!!!!


----------



## Ronnie

Talked to Buggs a few days ago about preamp issues.Found i had a blown F1 Fuse.He mentioned that due to the hours on the head i might want to change all the tubes out.I actually like the way my DSL 100 sounds when its running in top condition.Not being familair with preamp tubes or power tubes i really need some input.The amp came with 4 12ax7wa,and 4 el34s.All GT Groove tubes.Talked to a guy at a repair shop about doing the work and he said he puts all Ruby Tubes in the heads he works on.Not sure if i want that tube or not.I have done some research.Went to The Tube Store,they recommend the dsl upgrade with 4 Tung-Sol for the preamp and 4 Sed winged C.I dont have a problem with going with a NOS Tube either.Thats if i can find enough tubes for the whole head.Thanx


----------



## solarburn

Ronnie said:


> Talked to Buggs a few days ago about preamp issues.Found i had a blown F1 Fuse.He mentioned that due to the hours on the head i might want to change all the tubes out.I actually like the way my DSL 100 sounds when its running in top condition.Not being familair with preamp tubes or power tubes i really need some input.The amp came with 4 12ax7wa,and 4 el34s.All GT Groove tubes.Talked to a guy at a repair shop about doing the work and he said he puts all Ruby Tubes in the heads he works on.Not sure if i want that tube or not.I have done some research.Went to The Tube Store,they recommend the dsl upgrade with 4 Tung-Sol for the preamp and 4 Sed winged C.I dont have a problem with going with a NOS Tube either.Thats if i can find enough tubes for the whole head.Thanx



Thats a solid line up and a good start. Alot of us mix NOS with great results.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry for the cross thread stuff, Marty. I didn't know where I was for awhile.

Ronnie, you really only need Tung-Sols for V1 and V2. V3 and V4 don't have much effect on tone. You could use EH or really just about anything. You might opt for a tube that tests high-gain for V4. As I said, it won't affect the tone but it will open the amp up and make it more responsive. If you want to go NOS, there are a few tubes that through much trial and error we have decided sound consistently good in certain spots.
A few personal favorites, pretty much in order of preference:
V1: Matsushita (older production), Telefunken, RFT, Mullard, Raytheon black plate, Ei Yugoslavia(the older the better), Electrohome, Amperex. These tubes don't need to be high-gain.
V2: Raytheon black plate, RFT, Raytheon JRP. These need to be higher gain tubes.
V3: Sylvania green label, Raytheon gray plate, G.E., basically any strong tube that doesn't necessarily sound good enough for V1 or V2.
V4: Raytheon JRP, RFT, Ei. (again, high gain)

For power tubes, I like my RFT's better than anything else I've tried. They are probably going to run you at least $200-$250 for a quad. For about half that price, Groove Tubes EL34M's or Winged C's sound pretty good.

PM Marty if you're looking to buy NOS. He's a great guy and a great dealer. I like to buy eBay tubes if I can get them cheap enough that I don't take too much of a hit when they are bad. I've gotten some superb tubes that way, and a lot of duds.


----------



## Ronnie

Thanx for the input.I'll PM Marty and see whats avalible.Thanx again Solarburn and RiverRatt.


----------



## solarburn

Ronnie said:


> Thanx for the input.I'll PM Marty and see whats avalible.Thanx again Solarburn and RiverRatt.



Anytime Ronnie!

Keep us posted on what you decide and yeah Marty has a great selection and is a solid hook up. He owns a tube tester so you know the tubes he gets have been tested. I've got a drawer full hehe.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Just cruising around. I'm sure we'll hook up.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well, I'll try back later. I knocked on the house, but nobodies home.


----------



## MM54

Alright, so I have a few (read: seven or eight) RCA 12AX7's that I plan on rolling through V1 tomorrow to see how the sound.

My question is this - they're date stamped 1960, but don't have the D-getter. What is the name of the getter style that kind of goes up at an angle but then levels off? (Sorry, I don't have pictures right now )


----------



## MartyStrat54

Slant top getter. They are nice sounding tubes. 1960 was a good year for the wine that was RCA.


----------



## Bieling3

Still having the occasional problem with mush creeping in after playing for a while so I picked up a TAD 12AX7 to switch out with the Mullard that's in V1. I can't really tell much of a difference, maybe a hair's width more gain. It's nice and low noise like the Mullard too. The mush, unfortunately, still creeps in after about an hour of playing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That sounds like a heat related issue, or possibly the filter caps. Combos get hot and after years of playing, things can go awry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-It sounds like you have some projects you are working on.


----------



## Bieling3

I'm starting to wonder about the filter caps myself, Marty. As I asked over in the Replacing Old Filter Caps...And Why You Should thread, "besides bulging, visible leakage, and increased 60 cycle hum," and crackling of course, "what is the best way to determine the health of your filter caps?"

I have newer looking black JJ cans in there and I was having an issue with a preamp tube before, which I switched out. I though getting a new one for the other suspect position would do the trick, but no. I just spent all my cash on a new cab so I'm dreading taking it in for a filter job if it really doesn't need it.


----------



## MM54

Well that was interesting...

I was taking advantage of being free pretty much all day to roll through some of the NOS I've accumulated but not tried out yet, got through a couple tubes (one is labeled "IEC Mullard" - it was pretty punchy, more gain than the RCA longplate I had in there, although seemed to lack a little bottom end, I really liked it) and was finishing up my demoing of one of the RCA _slant-top getter_ 12AX7s (which I have 7 of... any buyers? ).

Like I said, I was finishing up sampling what that little bugger could do (sounded great) and, to make a long story short, as I slammed on the last chord of Raining Blood, there was (ironically) a massive flash of lightning, and the power went out. I think that's the fastest I've ever moved, when I dove* to turn the power switches off on my amp before the power came back on (I think I got it - the light was coming on as I flipped the mains switch off... it's unplugged now).

It wasn't even raining before, now it's a massive electrical storm and torrential rain 

*Yes, I dove, I was across the room from my amp and almost fell on my guitar when I jumped over to turn the switches off. I may have pushed my head back a little on top of the cab


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-It sounds like you have some projects you are working on.




I've got a bunch of oddball electronics stuff lying around. I've got a couple of little miniature amp projects going. The stuff I can't use, I'm pulling the resistors and marking them and pulling caps and wires and anything that might be useful and throwing the carcass away. I've got a Crate G40 Chorus amp that I'm about to dig into. I don't think there's anything much in it that's useful. I'm going to see if it's got any decent electrolytics. My goal is to come up with enough stuff to build an 18 watt clone. I've picked out the schematic and layout I'm going to use, and I'm about to order a turret board and start getting it put together so I can see which components I'm missing. 

Well, I was doing all this. It's so hot here I can't do anything right now. It was 102 when we went to pick up groceries awhile ago, and the humidity is so high it's foggy looking outside. The AC can't keep up with it. Everybody in here is short-tempered and just trying to stay out of each other's way. It's times like this that a swimming pool would be worth the trouble.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, have you tried that JRP yet? I've been doing some rolling and I think mine is the best PI tube in my collection.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, have you tried that JRP yet? I've been doing some rolling and I think mine is the best PI tube in my collection.



Gonna try it in the Monza in the PI too. Probably Monday as I have a few things to do so I won't have much time to play.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> ... was finishing up my demoing of one of the RCA _slant-top getter_ 12AX7s (which I have 7 of... any buyers? )...



Any idea on the year these were made, what sorta numbers they tested at, and how much you want for them? I may be interested...



MM54 said:


> ... to make a long story short, as I slammed on the last chord of Raining Blood, there was (ironically) a massive flash of lightning, and the power went out. I think that's the fastest I've ever moved, when I dove* to turn the power switches off on my amp before the power came back on...
> 
> ... *Yes, I dove, I was across the room from my amp and almost fell on my guitar when I jumped over to turn the switches off. I may have pushed my head back a little on top of the cab



That must have been a sight to see mate!


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Any idea on the year these were made, what sorta numbers they tested at, and how much you want for them? I may be interested...


I believe the date code shows 1960. They're marked "Wurlitzer - Made By RCA" or something like that. I don't have numbers individually on the tubes, but they all tested above 95% on my emissions tester if I remember correctly (I've tested at least a hundred tubes in the past three days, most of them worthless for the most part. I don't really remember any of them ). I don't know about prices yet, I haven't even rolled all of them through my amp to make sure they sound right yet 



joshuaaewallen said:


> That must have been a sight to see mate!



I wish there was a camera going, it probably was pretty funny. Tomorrow I'll find out if anything stupid happened with my amp >.<


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I wish there was a camera going, it probably was pretty funny. Tomorrow I'll find out if anything stupid happened with my amp >.<



It must be the week for f_ck-ups. You should have seen me Thursday. I have to deliver newspapers on Thursdays because our business is still to small to hire somebody to do it. If you read the last few pages, you'll know I was operating with a hangover and about 3 hours sleep. I opened a paper rack and threw a stack of papers in it and about 8 or 10 red wasps came boiling out of it. I screamed like a girl and jumped about 10 feet, slamming the door on one of them. I stood out front of a convenience store and tried to fight them off with a rolled-up newspaper. When I got them all (didn't get stung - hah!) I looked up and everybody in the store was standing at the door laughing. I didn't think it was funny at the time, but it probably was. If I end up on AFV they damn well better split the money with me. I have this phobia with wasps. I can deal with snakes, spiders, whatever, but anything that flies and stings is clearly a product of Satan.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It must be the week for f_ck-ups. You should have seen me Thursday. I have to deliver newspapers on Thursdays because our business is still to small to hire somebody to do it. If you read the last few pages, you'll know I was operating with a hangover and about 3 hours sleep. I opened a paper rack and threw a stack of papers in it and about 8 or 10 red wasps came boiling out of it. I screamed like a girl and jumped about 10 feet, slamming the door on one of them. I stood out front of a convenience store and tried to fight them off with a rolled-up newspaper. When I got them all (didn't get stung - hah!) I looked up and everybody in the store was standing at the door laughing. I didn't think it was funny at the time, but it probably was. If I end up on AFV they damn well better split the money with me. I have this phobia with wasps. I can deal with snakes, spiders, whatever, but anything that flies and stings is clearly a product of Satan.



Hahahaha! I hate them bastids too! Ain't fair being able to sting at will like that hehe. Hey you didn't get tagged. Job well done Alan!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I don't mind bee's and wasps... It's spiders that scare the crap outta me....

:Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno:


----------



## thrawn86

Great story Alan. I scream too, at least at snakes.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I don't mind bee's and wasps... It's spiders that scare the crap outta me....
> 
> :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno: :Ohno:


 
Don't ever come over to our house, then. We've got a serious problem with brown recluses. They aren't bad in the cool months (there aren't very many of those here). When it gets hot, they come down out of the attic and we find the fuckers climbing on the walls all the time. I bought a little spray bottle and loaded it with isopropyl alcohol. If I see one, I get out the Bic lighter and do the Gene Simmons on they asses. Works well with wasps, too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Don't ever come over to our house, then. We've got a serious problem with brown recluses. They aren't bad in the cool months (there aren't very many of those here). When it gets hot, they come down out of the attic and we find the fuckers climbing on the walls all the time. I bought a little spray bottle and loaded it with isopropyl alcohol. If I see one, I get out the Bic lighter and do the Gene Simmons on they asses. Works well with wasps, too.



Uhh... I'll pass on the recluse's... They are nasty little critter and they leave quite a mark when they decide to take a chomp on ya!


----------



## thrawn86

Gahhh! Was that you, Josh?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Gahhh! Was that you, Josh?


 Thank God no! I found that pic on the net... But my old man was bit on the foot one time (yes, albeit on the rare side of things we do have them in MN as well), and it looked pretty much like that only w/ toes. Not too pretty.

Like I say... I'll pass on that. Thanks anyway.







... But it still won't stop me from visiting TN, I just plain love it down there.


----------



## Bieling3

...


----------



## solarburn

No spider should have that kind of power...wicked beasty!


----------



## thetragichero

hey new guy here
i've been working through this thread on my downtime at work (on page 22 so far...)
picked up a 1997 dsl100 about a month ago and immediately retubed it with tung-sol pres and svetlana el34s
then of course i found this thread...
so far i've picked up a sylvania grey plate 12ax7 and ge 5751, bidding on some more 12ax7s, a 12at7.... guess i've caught the fever!
any of the tubes i don't use in the amp would go to replace the unmarked/probably chinese tubes that came in my behringer mic preamps
anyway, i appreciate all the info i've read so far and look forward to contributing!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Wow... You are hardcore mate! This is a lot of thread to read through! Anyhoo... WELCOME!  And feel free to post any questions or comments that you might have. You're always welcome here. It's kinda like Cheers... "Sometimes you wanna go where everybody knows your name... And they're always glad you came..."


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> hey new guy here
> i've been working through this thread on my downtime at work (on page 22 so far...)
> picked up a 1997 dsl100 about a month ago and immediately retubed it with tung-sol pres and svetlana el34s
> then of course i found this thread...
> so far i've picked up a sylvania grey plate 12ax7 and ge 5751, bidding on some more 12ax7s, a 12at7.... guess i've caught the fever!
> any of the tubes i don't use in the amp would go to replace the unmarked/probably chinese tubes that came in my behringer mic preamps
> anyway, i appreciate all the info i've read so far and look forward to contributing!



Use only a 5751 or 12AX7 in the Behringer. I have one and I replaced the Chinese tube with a smooth Telefunken. Turned it into a real tube preamp. Ha-ha. Not to many of us use a 12AT7 anymore. Not even in the PI slot. I wouldn't waste my money on a 12AT7. They are cheap, but they don't have much bang.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Use only a 5751 or 12AX7 in the Behringer. I have one and I replaced the Chinese tube with a smooth Telefunken. Turned it into a real tube preamp. Ha-ha. Not to many of us use a 12AT7 anymore. Not even in the PI slot. I wouldn't waste my money on a 12AT7. They are cheap, but they don't have much bang.



Hey Marty! How the heck are ya? Seems like we haven't had a chat in ages!

Still diggin' your Martimus Maximus tone pack in the TSL, and w/ the Wilder mods... The thing is an animal. Otherwise I've been toying a lot w/ the RP1000... How about you mate?


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome aboard thetragichero! We get a little silly sometimes, but it's all in fun. If there's anything you want to know, just ask. I wouldn't put in too much time on the early pages unless you're just interested in the history. All of us have moved way past where we were then.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I wouldn't put in too much time on the early pages unless you're just interested in the history. All of us have moved way past where we were then.



What do you meal, _all_ of us? I'm still an immature smart mouthed punk, and determined to stay that way!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Josh, parts of me are rigid as I await the shipment of amps from Jon. The 2204 is done and the 1978 JMP is getting the final touches and should be fired up tomorrow. Just so you guys know, somewhere down the line the JMP got a point-to-point board put in it. It looked like someone was trying to make a 1959 out of this 2203. Anyway, I had Jon take out all of the carbon resistors and upgrade them. Jon also did a beautiful job of restringing the heater wires. As stated, this is not getting modded except for an FX loop (the holes were already made in the front). It also has a resonance control that was never hooked up. Jon got that up and running.

Tubes are Green Label Mini Watt V1, High Gain Telefunken V2 (if too bright a High Gain Raytheon Black Plate will sub) and a High Gain Mullard for V3 (PI). I have a lot of 30-31 Telefunkens and I'm hoping that this one will work in the JMP without enhancing the highs too much. Got the old BP on standby if necessary.

Here's a thought? A Black plate in V1 and a High Gain Telefunken in V2. Hmm?
Very interesting...yes? (Remember when I put four BP's in my TSL?)

Power tubes EH6CA7's. If I'm not happy, then I'll try a set of RFT EL34's.

Picked up some other gear and now I have my eyes on a couple of Strats.

I going to contact Fender about my 89 Strat Plus, because apparently, the color may be extremely rare. I call it Root Beer gold metallic. I've not been able to find any other Strat that color. It could be worth as much as Ken Bran's Marshall amp.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Josh, parts of me are rigid as I await the shipment of amps from Jon. The 2204 is done and the 1978 JMP is getting the final touches and should be fired up tomorrow. Just so you guys know, somewhere down the line the JMP got a point-to-point board put in it. It looked like someone was trying to make a 1959 out of this 2203. Anyway, I had Jon take out all of the carbon resistors and upgrade them. Jon also did a beautiful job of restringing the heater wires. As stated, this is not getting modded except for an FX loop (the holes were already made in the front). It also has a resonance control that was never hooked up. Jon got that up and running.
> 
> Tubes are Green Label Mini Watt V1, High Gain Telefunken V2 (if too bright a High Gain Raytheon Black Plate will sub) and a High Gain Mullard for V3 (PI). I have a lot of 30-31 Telefunkens and I'm hoping that this one will work in the JMP without enhancing the highs too much. Got the old BP on standby if necessary.
> 
> Here's a thought? A Black plate in V1 and a High Gain Telefunken in V2. Hmm?
> Very interesting...yes? (Remember when I put four BP's in my TSL?)
> 
> Power tubes EH6CA7's. If I'm not happy, then I'll try a set of RFT EL34's.
> 
> Picked up some other gear and now I have my eyes on a couple of Strats.
> 
> I going to contact Fender about my 89 Strat Plus, because apparently, the color may be extremely rare. I call it Root Beer gold metallic. I've not been able to find any other Strat that color. It could be worth as much as Ken Bran's Marshall amp.



Sounds like you've got a lot of irons in the fire gear-wise. Very, very cool. I am exited about when get your amp from Jon. If ya can manage it, it'd be nice to be able to hear ya wail on it a bit. I know it's gonna sound killer.

Gear-wise Not much is different here. Still learning my way through the RP1000 (love that thing), and I've decided for sure to make the TSL a head, I've got St. Paul Stamp Works prepping to make me a new faceplate, and a friend of mine who does killer woodwork is gonna help me make a new box for the TSL chassis... Something that looks real classy. I'll probably build a matching 2x12 speaker cab as well. And I'm waiting on my sustainer to arrive so that I can get that installed on the PRS. That's gonna be cool.

You running any "specials" on pre-amp tubes these day? PM me w/ some suggestions as I may be in the market to add a few to my arsenal. Nothing too high priced, but just rock solid good sounding tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am also having G.A.S. for some new tubes. Even though I just bought some not too long ago. Marty, I may have to call you sometime and set something up. Im gonna be off work for 4 weeks for knee surgery so I will have plenty of time to roll some tubes!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> What do you meal, _all_ of us? I'm still an immature smart mouthed punk, and determined to stay that way!



I mean tube-wise, ya silly 

I'll bet I can out-immature you with one hand tied behind my back.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was taking some shots of the current line-up. For the new guys, here's a visual of the ones I've been talking about lately. 






RFT EL34's:


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys. I was running through all the tubes I have and found one that doesnt have a label on it. It only says 12AX7M on the side in red. Nothing else on it. Usually you can hold it sideways and see where the name had faded but I cant on these. Here some pics. Thanks.

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1217.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1214.jpg
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1222.jpg


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys. I was running through all the tubes I have and found one that doesnt have a label on it. It only says 12AX7M on the side in red. Nothing else on it. Usually you can hold it sideways and see where the name had faded but I cant on these. Here some pics. Thanks.
> 
> http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1217.jpg
> http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1214.jpg
> http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm107/codybaker_12/100_1222.jpg



Groove Tubes GT-12AX7-M Mullard Reissue


----------



## BluesRocker

So a POS tube then? I havent tried it out yet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Give it a whirl and then leave your comments. Try it in all positions. Remember, there's always the trash can.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I mean tube-wise, ya silly
> 
> I'll bet I can out-immature you with one hand tied behind my back.



Them's Is Fightin' Words... Bring it on!


----------



## BluesRocker

So I threw in that tube in the V1,2 and 4. Didnt bother with V3. 
In V1 it added gain and tightened up the bottom end a tad and made the mids more present. It had a real thick modern sound. (V2 was a Ray Bp, V3 Philips, PI Tungsol Highgain) 
In V2 it lost some gain, but kept the same bass with a little more highs.
(V1 Philips, V3 Philips, PI Tungsol)
V4 wasnt much difference that the tube I have been using.
(V1 Philips,V2 Ray BP, V3 Philips)


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Them's Is Fightin' Words... Bring it on!



Ok. I don't know how to do this in a way that won't send this thread to an all-time low. PM's at 10 paces? If I end up sending you some tubes, I could fart in the box before I tape it up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> No spider should have that kind of power...wicked beasty!



If didn't mind spiders before, they might now!  :Ohno:


----------



## thetragichero

so once the postman brings me everything, i will have:

sylvania grey plate 12ax7
matsushita 12ax7
ge 5751
4x CP tung-sol
3x jj 12ax7

(also have a few more bids in but.... between this and putting together a studio little-by-little, the woman is starting to complain about all of the boxes on our doorstep... )

where should i start with on my dsl100?
thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is what I told Ratt. Make a couple of those boxes something for her. Wow! What an attitude change it makes.


----------



## thetragichero

oooh good thinkin!


----------



## RiverRatt

Speaking of... 

At last, a decent deal off eBay. $13 delivered. Good, strong tubes. A little more gritty than the older one in the picture I posted a page back. I actually made a video clip of me rollin' these. If I can figure out how to edit it and convert it, I might post it. It's just noodling around, but the tone turned out pretty good.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of...
> 
> At last, a decent deal off eBay. $13 delivered. Good, strong tubes. A little more gritty than the older one in the picture I posted a page back. I actually made a video clip of me rollin' these. If I can figure out how to edit it and convert it, I might post it. It's just noodling around, but the tone turned out pretty good.



Love to see/hear it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of...
> 
> At last, a decent deal off eBay. $13 delivered. Good, strong tubes. A little more gritty than the older one in the picture I posted a page back. I actually made a video clip of me rollin' these. If I can figure out how to edit it and convert it, I might post it. It's just noodling around, but the tone turned out pretty good.



Can you just upload the file to youtube? that'd be simplest thing to do... if possible...


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, here goes. I edited out about 4 minutes of senseless noodling (and left in about a minute and a half). Amp settings were Classic channel clean, gain on about 7, presence 0, bass 6, mid 6, treble 6, no boost or cut, Fulltone OCD with everything at 12 o'clock. It sounds more fuzzy on the video than it did live.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ok, here goes. I edited out about 4 minutes of senseless noodling (and left in about a minute and a half). Amp settings were Classic channel clean, gain on about 7, presence 0, bass 6, mid 6, treble 6, no boost or cut, Fulltone OCD with everything at 12 o'clock. It sounds more fuzzy on the video than it did live.



Right on Alan.
Good to see ya play'n! Nice amp and I hear those OCD's are pretty good...


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, man. It wasn't anything to be proud of. I was just goofing off and cooling down. I went out and bought a little window air conditioner for the bedroom and had just got finished putting it in. It was around 101 today and the CH&A just ain't cutting it.

I forgot to mention that I swapped the tubes around. That's the Raytheon JRP ICBM in V2 and the weaker (29-31) Raytheon black plate in V4. I think it made a difference in a good way. That means that the lowest gain tube in my amp tests at around 30-30 on Marty's tester, except for the new Matsushita. If I were guessing, I'd say it's at least a 30-30 as well.

Yeah, that OCD is the cat's ass. I should have put a little clip of the blues stuff in just so you could hear how well it cleans up just using your hands. BTW, the amp is a bone stock DSL50, made in 2000.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, man. It wasn't anything to be proud of. I was just goofing off and cooling down. I went out and bought a little window air conditioner for the bedroom and had just got finished putting it in. It was around 101 today and the CH&A just ain't cutting it.
> 
> I forgot to mention that I swapped the tubes around. That's the Raytheon JRP ICBM in V2 and the weaker (29-31) Raytheon black plate in V4. I think it made a difference in a good way. That means that the lowest gain tube in my amp tests at around 30-30 on Marty's tester, except for the new Matsushita. If I were guessing, I'd say it's at least a 30-30 as well.
> 
> Yeah, that OCD is the cat's ass. I should have put a little clip of the blues stuff in just so you could hear how well it cleans up just using your hands. BTW, the amp is a bone stock DSL50, made in 2000.



If you get some time I'd love to hear it in action plus I love the blues...

Man it is cook'n down there. We're only managing 60's and alot of frigg'n drizzle. Its a bit depressing.

You've got some strong tubes in that there Marshall preamp. Still get all the definition and dynamics you need and the ability to put the pedal to the floor. Got to like that! 

I'll try the JRP in the Monza tomorrow. That amp has plenty of saturation all ready but a good ANOS sounds great in it. I've got a Telefunken sp in V1 and a Japanese Magnavox in the PI. It was one of the first tubes Marty sent me. Sounds great too.

Well your DSL is solid man. Enjoy it for along time...


----------



## thrawn86

RiverRatt said:


> <snip>.... It sounds more fuzzy on the video than it did live.



I hear ya. Just recorded mine with a little hard drive cam and it really didn't do it justice. Your vid still sounded pretty good though.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You've got some strong tubes in that there Marshall preamp. Still get all the definition and dynamics you need and the ability to put the pedal to the floor. Got to like that!



Some of that is the guitar and pickups, too. That's my 2006 LP 1958 reissue with Wolfetone Dr. Vintage humbuckers w/Alnico II magnets, and I think the windings are around 8.2k and 7.8k. They aren't especially hot pickups but they will push the front end pretty hard. Soundgarden was one of my favorite heavy bands of all time, and although my rig is way different from Kim Thayil's I can still nail his tone on Badmotorfinger and Superunknown. They can get dark and smoky, too. Wolfe makes some good pickups. The strings are GHS Nickel Rockers .011 - .050.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If you get some time I'd love to hear it in action plus I love the blues...
> 
> Man it is cook'n down there. We're only managing 60's and alot of frigg'n drizzle. Its a bit depressing...



Ditto on hearin' some blues. Hey, do you know any Kentucky Headhunters songs? Particularly from "The Electric Barnyard" album? They were labled as country, but to me they had that perfect blend of heavy blues, rock, and redneck all blended together. Excellent guitar tones.

Well it ain't no 101 up here, but I wish it was 60 and drizzly. Today's 88 (5:02PM Correction 90 outside), which would be bearable if it weren't so bloody muggy. They've been promising rain for days and we've nary a drop. The humidity is just palpable.



RiverRatt said:


> Ok, here goes. I edited out about 4 minutes of senseless noodling (and left in about a minute and a half). Amp settings were Classic channel clean, gain on about 7, presence 0, bass 6, mid 6, treble 6, no boost or cut, Fulltone OCD with everything at 12 o'clock. It sounds more fuzzy on the video than it did live.



Didn't sound too bad in the fizzy department. Ya can hear that amps tone pushin' through and it sounds *good*!!!


----------



## MM54

I just got done rolling a couple tubes, and WOW. That 1962 Mullard is amazing. I do believe that it will stay in V1 unless one of the GE's or the Zenith I have yet to try out is a miracle-tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome to our addiction! 

I don't think you have anything to worry about with the Zenith. G.E.'s can sound pretty good if you find the right one, but not like a Mullard. Once you get bitten by the Philips bug, you never recover. Now consider that there's at least 10 other companies that Philips owned that made tubes very similar to the Mullard - some sound a little like Mullards, some sound a lot different, and all of them sound GOOD. 

While you're rolling all those tubes, pay attention to any that are a little too dirty for a V1 tube and stick those in V2 behind the Mullard. If they still don't sound good, put them in the V3 & V4 pile.


----------



## MM54

My amp only has three preamp tubes - V1 is gain, V2 drives the FX loop and reverb tank, and V3 is the PI.

I'm thinking tomorrow after I check through that I don't have a miracle-tube for V1 that I'll see if rolling the PI makes any difference in the realm of NOS


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> My amp only has three preamp tubes - V1 is gain, V2 drives the FX loop and reverb tank, and V3 is the PI.
> 
> I'm thinking tomorrow after I check through that I don't have a miracle-tube for V1 that I'll see if rolling the PI makes any difference in the realm of NOS



Doh!  It's getting too hard to remember who's playing what.

Yeah, different tubes in the PI slot will make a difference in the way the amp sounds and feels. You don't get a break - you have to try them all. It's a forum rule.


----------



## MM54

And so I shall.

I'm hoping the slant-top RCAs sound great in V2 and 3 because I have so many


----------



## RiverRatt

I should pick up a handful of them from you for my (cough, cough) Fender (cough).


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ditto on hearin' some blues. Hey, do you know any Kentucky Headhunters songs? Particularly from "The Electric Barnyard" album? They were labled as country, but to me they had that perfect blend of heavy blues, rock, and redneck all blended together. Excellent guitar tones.



The only Kentucky Headhunters song I remember is "Dumas Walker". Greg Martin is a great player, I just never got into it. I think most of that happened during my dark years when my music gear was reduced to a '70's Fender 3-bolt strat with a kahler trem and a Roland Cube 60 amp. I had to go back to work at a music store to get back into the groove. This resulted in a changeover to a 1979 Les Paul Custom and an early '70's Princeton Reverb amp. I actually traded the Cube 60 even for the Princeton!!! I also once traded a $175 Peavey bass for a 1968 ES-335 DOT with no money changing hands, but the store owner caught that one and I had to act like I wasn't planning to pay for the bass and take the 335 home.

Two reasons why you probably won't hear any blues clips:

#1 - I hate my lead playing. It sucks ass. I actually have more fun playing hard rockin' rhythm guitar. That's probably why when I run across a great old AC/DC song on my MP3 player, I end up listening to it like 10 times. 

#2 - When I hit "record" on any device the suck factor on my lead playing increases by at least a multiplier of 10.

I think I need this pedal...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The only Kentucky Headhunters song I remember is "Dumas Walker". Greg Martin is a great player, I just never got into it. I think most of that happened during my dark years when my music gear was reduced to a '70's Fender 3-bolt strat with a kahler trem and a Roland Cube 60 amp. I had to go back to work at a music store to get back into the groove. This resulted in a changeover to a 1979 Les Paul Custom and an early '70's Princeton Reverb amp. I actually traded the Cube 60 even for the Princeton!!! I also once traded a $175 Peavey bass for a 1968 ES-335 DOT with no money changing hands, but the store owner caught that one and I had to act like I wasn't planning to pay for the bass and take the 335 home.
> 
> Two reasons why you probably won't hear any blues clips:
> 
> #1 - I hate my lead playing. It sucks ass. I actually have more fun playing hard rockin' rhythm guitar. That's probably why when I run across a great old AC/DC song on my MP3 player, I end up listening to it like 10 times.
> 
> #2 - When I hit "record" on any device the suck factor on my lead playing increases by at least a multiplier of 10.
> 
> I think I need this pedal...



Hahahaha! I like that pedal. You are your worse critic. Aren't we all hehe. I quit judging others playing a while back. There is always someone who can make mine seem as bad as any hehe. What I do critique is tone. To me that's ok but to insult someones playing is cross'n the line. There's room for all our interpretations of what ever music we play. So no worries.

I was playing the NT through my 412(GB's)using my EC1000 81/85 ripper. Man I totally was blown away by the raw grinding meaty saturation I was pull'n out of it. Really I just never have turned it loose with that guitar and all 15 watts cooking through the 412. Seriously astounded. I have figured out how to get certain things from this amp now and I have to say it is better than I thought it was. 

Its a lunch box and it can rip hard with the right guitar and pu's. Hey and I'm going straight in no pedal boosting. Just pu boosting hehe. Those Russian EL84's are in it and when they are burn'n they are awesome. Really fat and meaty. I'm surprised you didn't call me and ask if that was me you heard play'n earlier...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm old. I have the TB-1.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> The only Kentucky Headhunters song I remember is "Dumas Walker". Greg Martin is a great player, I just never got into it...
> 
> Two reasons why you probably won't hear any blues clips:
> 
> #1 - I hate my lead playing. It sucks ass. I actually have more fun playing hard rockin' rhythm guitar. That's probably why when I run across a great old AC/DC song on my MP3 player, I end up listening to it like 10 times.
> 
> #2 - When I hit "record" on any device the suck factor on my lead playing increases by at least a multiplier of 10.
> 
> I think I need this pedal...



I hear ya mate, ain't nothin' w/ some good old AC/DC. Not complicated, but just plain freakin' rocks!

Hey, I could really uses one of them pedals. Know where I can get one? Trust me when I say that you ain't the one who's playing hits the crapper as soon as he hits record. I have a whole bunch of vids on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/joshuaaewallen), and in every single one I screw up on songs that I play just fine strait through in the privacy of my home w/out being recorded. So no worries mate. That's we just keep on playin' for the joy of it. Screw tryin' to impress people.

So... From what you see below... You might just get the impression that I like the Kentucky Head Hunters just teenie weenie bit. I guess you'd you be right. So anyhoo... I've stayed up past my bed time and need to get up in 6 hours, so I'm signing off. Ya'll have a great night!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03C1LOkO2TU"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - Take Me Back.wmv[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLNmvaACJno"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - The Ballad Of Davy Crockett[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izLGIife3ug"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - Wishing Well[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMnwDpE4IZY"]YouTube - A tribute to Mexican food (The Kentucky Headhunters - Big Mexican Dinner)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svQOQ2DIDEU"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - It's Chitlin Time[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0NxY620LZk"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - Only Daddy That'll Walk The Line[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcJ6O0TVaQA"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - Big Boss Man[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9KkmbQUan0"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - Let's Work Together[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiEovIesKHc"]YouTube - Kentucky Headhunters - House Of The Rising Sun[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UidmrYzi7Iw"]YouTube - Muddy water ~ Kentucky Headhunters[/ame]


----------



## Stymie13

Ratt... your amp sounds bad ass. Everytime I see a clip like this I remember why I sold my Mesa DR. I _wanted_ to love the Mesa more than I actually loved it. It was a beautifully made amp with good components and features. Great customer service. The Mesa was an absolutely amazing amp... *BUT* in side by side comparisons, time after time, the DSL just flat out won. Maybe I'm just a Marshall guy...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Stymie13 said:


> Ratt... your amp sounds bad ass. Everytime I see a clip like this I remember why I sold my Mesa DR. I _wanted_ to love the Mesa more than I actually loved it. It was a beautifully made amp with good components and features. Great customer service. The Mesa was an absolutely amazing amp... *BUT* in side by side comparisons, time after time, the DSL just flat out won. Maybe I'm just a Marshall guy...



x 2. Once I plugged into a Marshall w/ tubes... I just didn't want to play anything else. Sure I've got a couple other amps, but they barely get touched compared to Marshall.

Rock on, and good night!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks guys. I like the tone I'm getting out of the DSL just fine, too. I think you have to live with an amp for awhile before you ever get the full potential out of it. Every time I start thinking I've got it dialed in exactly where I want it I'll discover some new trick and have to stop and rethink. It's really strange though - no matter what I'm using at the time, 6-6-6 on the TMB knobs is always where I end up. I could yank the presence control off and never miss it. 

What I said about the guitar, pickups and OCD was dead serious, though. I give Mr. Mike Fuller and Mr. Wolfe McLeod the credit they deserve. The OCD just brings out the best in the amp without coloring the tone. I've always chased that midrange Les Paul bark around and around, but when I put in that set of Wolfetone pickups it was there. 

Joe, I think Wolfe is pretty close to where you live. His shop is in Edmonds. The dude has some killer pickups and I wish I could try every one of 'em. My wife actually swapped emails with him and bought me the Dr. Vintage set for Christmas one year. She screwed up - I was wanting his Marshallheads but he couldn't remember which ones we'd been talking about and he sent the Dr. V's. I'm glad he did! Ya gotta love a girl like that. She bitches about guitars 364 days out of the year or so and then goes and does something like that. Go check out his site - he has a few sound clips but you have to dig for them. I think most of them are here. He might remember me from the LPF, but he calls me "Tree Rat", whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

Josh, I'll get to those video clips sooner or later, I promise. There's only so many hours in the day and I'm running short right now.

Stymie, that's why I was basically just dicking around with some heavy chords. I like to listen to the tone of the amp when I'm rolling tubes and you just don't get to hear that tone playing at 90 mph. Sometimes I wish I could record clips like those guys on YouTube do with all the EVH Eruption stuff and I'm not knocking that at all - I'm amazed by those guys - but that's not what drives my playing. I'd rather play a rhythm part from start to finish and cop the tone and feel of it. I guess working in a music store for years turned me off to guys who could play every Randy Rhoads or EVH or later Slash lick, but they did it with absolutely no tone and feel. If I ever again have to hear some wanker play the opening riff to "Sweet Child O' Mine" like a set of rusty bedsprings on a Saturday night, I'll probably blow his brains out.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks guys. I like the tone I'm getting out of the DSL just fine, too. I think you have to live with an amp for awhile before you ever get the full potential out of it. Every time I start thinking I've got it dialed in exactly where I want it I'll discover some new trick and have to stop and rethink. It's really strange though - no matter what I'm using at the time, 6-6-6 on the TMB knobs is always where I end up. I could yank the presence control off and never miss it.
> 
> What I said about the guitar, pickups and OCD was dead serious, though. I give Mr. Mike Fuller and Mr. Wolfe McLeod the credit they deserve. The OCD just brings out the best in the amp without coloring the tone. I've always chased that midrange Les Paul bark around and around, but when I put in that set of Wolfetone pickups it was there.
> 
> Joe, I think Wolfe is pretty close to where you live. His shop is in Edmonds. The dude has some killer pickups and I wish I could try every one of 'em. My wife actually swapped emails with him and bought me the Dr. Vintage set for Christmas one year. She screwed up - I was wanting his Marshallheads but he couldn't remember which ones we'd been talking about and he sent the Dr. V's. I'm glad he did! Ya gotta love a girl like that. She bitches about guitars 364 days out of the year or so and then goes and does something like that. Go check out his site - he has a few sound clips but you have to dig for them. I think most of them are here.
> 
> Josh, I'll get to those video clips sooner or later, I promise. There's only so many hours in the day and I'm running short right now.




Man I'm glad you got that pedal. It needed a good home and does my rock heart good to know its delivering the goods for ya. I'll check those PU's out and yeah Edmonds is definitely local. Thanx for the link! Thats a good women do'n that for you.

Love me Marshall amps no question. These 2 strays I have in the Monza and Night Train are welcome additions to the stable and great companions to any Marshall. Fun Fun Fun! I've got one stall left and I know whats go'n in it...in time.


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, I hope you don't mind me posting this. The "You Shook Me" clip on YouTube absolutely made my day! The dog (rat terrier?) is a better critic than my wife. You can tell by the ears that he's gonna bolt before Brian Johnson ever starts singing.






I've got two canines here - a Jack Russel Terrier and a mutt that we found at my mother-in-law's house at Shiloh (as in Civil War Battle of). His name is "Shiloh". He's my best critic. As soon as he sees me headed for guitar corner he goes and crawls under the cover on my bed.

Good stuff, man. It's a shame that not a single one of us lives within easy jamming distance.


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn, your dog sounds about like my cat used to do.

How far from the TN border are you RiverRatt?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm only about 20 minutes from Mississippi. I'm not that far from Alabama either, but it takes awhile to get there. Too much water between here and there.


----------



## solarburn

Numero 3000 for me...

I know its early but time for a shotta sumpt'n!


BELCH!


Anybody try Hitachi's yet?






Brand New, MINT NOS 1970s Hitachi 12AX7 ECC83 tubes relabeled by Haltron London. Made in Japan. In generic white boxes from bulk. Japanese tubes like Hitachi 12AX7/ECC83 are much under-appreciated as these are great for both Audio and Guitar applications.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope. Are those yours? 

Congrats on 3,000!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. Are those yours?
> 
> Congrats on 3,000!



No. I was just looking at them. If they were slant getters I might try them cause I find the few Japanese ones like that to sound a bit better than unslanted. It may be my imagination...LOL.

If I had some extra money now I'd get a mini-watt and HG BP from Marty and then I think I would get one of each: RFT, EI and a Hitachi to try out. The other 2 I already have and like.


----------



## RiverRatt

I want a Mazda - I've read that they have the most gain of any AX7 without any mud or loss of definition. They hit like a 5 lb. hammer. I think Marty has a few but I haven't gotten up the courage to ask how much... that's always the last step before I start selling stuff on ebay so I can afford them.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh, I hope you don't mind me posting this. The "You Shook Me" clip on YouTube absolutely made my day! The dog (rat terrier?) is a better critic than my wife. You can tell by the ears that he's gonna bolt before Brian Johnson ever starts singing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've got two canines here - a Jack Russel Terrier and a mutt that we found at my mother-in-law's house at Shiloh (as in Civil War Battle of). His name is "Shiloh". He's my best critic. As soon as he sees me headed for guitar corner he goes and crawls under the cover on my bed.
> 
> Good stuff, man. It's a shame that not a single one of us lives within easy jamming distance.



Thanks for the kind words mate. I appreciate it. I'm trying to get in the habbit of recording myself playing more often in the hopes that I'll just get used to it and not turn into a goober who forgets songs he knows by heart. If the plan works, then I'll hopefully screw up less when recording because I'm used to it and don't care. Think it'll work?

Jack Russel's are awesome dogs. Extremely smart. Rat terriers like mine tend to be real smart also, but very demanding and stubborn. I love 'em but some days I'd like to fire 'em out of a cannon. (Just kidding). Rocky, the one in that video is an odd dog all around. Runt of the litter, little/big man complex, both extremely high energy and old dog chilled. Normally he doesn't mind when I'm jammin' away on my axe. Both Duke (the bigger shaggy rat-terrier mix) and Rocky will just hang out waiting for something to chase or bark at.

And... I agree whole heartedly. It would be awesome if I didn't live 1,000 miles away so we could jam. That'd be pretty sweet.

Anyhoo... Rock on man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-Congrats of the massive 3,000. You talk about as much shit as I do.

I think the slant tops are better and that is all I buy.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hitachi slant getters? I didn't know they made those. Post some pics of them if you have time.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... If I ever again have to hear some wanker play the opening riff to "Sweet Child O' Mine" like a set of rusty bedsprings on a Saturday night, I'll probably blow his brains out.



Remind me not to practice that riff in front of you...:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hitachi slant getters? I didn't know they made those. Post some pics of them if you have time.



Was this aimed at me? I wasn't talking about Hitachi's.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


>



I have two GE tubes with plates that look like that - they seem narrow and boxy. I'll have to find them and compare to that picture - did GE ever relabel those?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Was this aimed at me? I wasn't talking about Hitachi's.



Yeah I think it was and Alan didn't realize you were talking Japanese tubes in general.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Was this aimed at me? I wasn't talking about Hitachi's.



Yeah, I must've missed something. I thought you were talking about Joe's Hitachi picture. I see now that it was an RCA thing. So sorry. That's what I get for trying to work and think at the same time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well actually I was taking about Japanese tubes and that I only am interested in slant top MATSUSHITA tubes. They were made on the Mullard equipment and I believe they are more desirable than say a Hitachi. 

But then you knew that already.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I have two GE tubes with plates that look like that - they seem narrow and boxy. I'll have to find them and compare to that picture - did GE ever relabel those?



GE was probably out of business when these tubes were made. GE's tube plant was bought out by Ken-Rad. Now they were probably in business when these tubes were made. These tubes can easily be mid-80's tubes.


----------



## MM54

Interesting. Later I'll pull them out and take pictures and see what you guys think. I've been meaning to ask about them since the plates are so funky looking.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> GE was probably out of business when these tubes were made. GE's tube plant was bought out by Ken-Rad. Now they were probably in business when these tubes were made. These tubes can easily be mid-80's tubes.





Brand New, MINT NOS 1970s Hitachi 12AX7 ECC83 tubes relabeled by Haltron London. Made in Japan. In generic white boxes from bulk. Japanese tubes like Hitachi 12AX7/ECC83 are much under-appreciated as these are great for both Audio and Guitar applications.
_________________


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well actually I was taking about Japanese tubes and that I only am interested in slant top MATSUSHITA tubes. They were made on the Mullard equipment and I believe they are more desirable than say a Hitachi.
> 
> But then you knew that already.



I'm just out of it today I guess. It's been one of those days and it's shaping up to be one of those nights. Have you run across any of the old Mats with the square getter slant tops yet? They are a little smoother and darker than the round getter ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry Joe, but your massive BELCH covered up the "1970's" and I didn't see it until I wiped (uh...I wiped) my monitor off. Man that was some foul BELCH.


----------



## solarburn

Belch!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's better.


----------



## solarburn

Toob's!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello dudes.


----------



## solarburn

rockin_lisa said:


> hello dudes.



Hello!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I see you had some trouble. It looks like you know how to take care of yourself. (Over on "Marty's 2203" thread.)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello dudes.



Heeeeeyyy! Look what the cat dragged it! How ya doin' kid?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Oh and BTW, "Hello back at you."


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'm just out of it today I guess. It's been one of those days and it's shaping up to be one of those nights...



I hear ya knockin' Bro.!


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Oh and BTW, "Hello back at you."



Its good to see you!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey Josh. How is your Def Leppard going?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Brand New, MINT NOS 1970s Hitachi 12AX7 ECC83 tubes relabeled by Haltron London. Made in Japan. In generic white boxes from bulk. Japanese tubes like Hitachi 12AX7/ECC83 are much under-appreciated as these are great for both Audio and Guitar applications.
> _________________



So, Joe... How much do these under-appreciated tubes usually sell for?

... Out of curiosity...


----------



## thrawn86

Howdy folks. Just back from Bieber, CA. If you blink, you literally would miss the whole town.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> So, Joe... How much do these under-appreciated tubes usually sell for?
> 
> ... Out of curiosity...



$40 a Popsicle...


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Howdy folks. Just back from Bieber, CA. If you blink, you literally would miss the whole town.




Haha! Hey Thrawn!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey Josh. How is your Def Leppard going?



Ya know... I just plain dig it. I'll probably never match their studio sound, but I can blend in well enough, and it's just fun to rock out. My rig tends to sound more like a cross between their studio sound and their live sound, which is fine by me 'cause I can fit in either way!



Hey, how's things w/ the band and the bass player? Still rockin'?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> $40 a Popsicle...



Hmm... Intriguing. If "Dirty 'Ol Joe" digs 'em then there must be something there worth checkin out.  Maybe after my sustainer is done... 



thrawn86 said:


> Howdy folks. Just back from Bieber, CA. If you blink, you literally would miss the whole town.



Hey!!! The gang's all here! Groovy!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Howdy Thrawn. I was admiring your 401.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hmm... Intriguing. If "Dirty 'Ol Joe" digs 'em then there must be something there worth checkin out.  Maybe after my sustainer is done...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!!! The gang's all here! Groovy!



Haven't tried them yet. Japanese 12AX7's with the slant getters seem to have a better tone to them. Those Hitachi's aren't slant getters. Marty's got some Matsushitas that have the slant getters if you want to try out a Japanese tube. I have a few and really like them. Mullard like...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

joshuaaewallen said:


> Ya know... I just plain dig it. I'll probably never match there studio sound, but I can blend in well enough, and it's just fun to rock out. My rig tends to sound more like a cross between their studio sound and their live sound, which is fine by me 'cause I can fit in either way!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, how's things w/ the band and the bass player? Still rockin'?



Tht's cool. Sounds like you've made some headway. That 1000 is like a game of Russian Scrabble. Good luck with that thing.


----------



## thrawn86

I have nothing of consequence to add this evening as I enjoy my Fire Rock ale and a BBQ chicken pizza before I collapse into bed. I just like to visit here occasionally......everyone in here I know I can trust, you like me, I like you; it's kinda like an online Cheers. Or a side room at a loud party where the reaaaaaly cool stuff is goin' down, like NOS tubes in Marshalls being played or a fine Brandy or Whiskey being sampled. Out there it's a cacophany.


----------



## solarburn

Josh I just watched your ACDC vid and it rocked!


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> I have nothing of consequence to add this evening as I enjoy my Fire Rock ale and a BBQ chicken pizza before I collapse into bed. I just like to visit here occasionally......everyone in here I know I can trust, you like me, I like you; it's kinda like an online Cheers. Or a side room at a loud party where the reaaaaaly cool stuff is goin' down, like NOS tubes in Marshalls being played or a fine Brandy or Whiskey being sampled. Out there it's a cacophany.



Amen Bruther!


----------



## thrawn86

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Howdy Thrawn. I was admiring your 401.



What up Lisa? Thanks. I have a vid of it in the 'Modded DSL Audio/Video Clips' thread. The camera doesn't do it justice and I can't play, but I rocked it nonetheless. Marty's valves sure sound great.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

I second that, Thrawn. Very well put.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey!!! The gang's all here! Groovy!



Well now I'm here, but we are still missing Alan. Then the gang would all be here.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hmm... Intriguing. If "Dirty 'Ol Joe" digs 'em then there must be something there worth checkin out.  Maybe after my sustainer is done...
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!!! The gang's all here! Groovy!



I dig these and have one:






$45 a pop.

MINT NOS NIB 1970s Pre-War Ei Smooth Plate ECC83 12AX7 with Edicron London Label and Box. Etched date code of (semicircle with dot)xx for Nish Plant from former Yugoslavia. Construction is very similar to Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83. Desirable tubes for Guitar tone and Audio gear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Thrawn, you are more than welcome over here any time. Your knowledge of craft beers is a necessity in today's evil world.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well now I'm here, but we are still missing Alan. Then the gang would all be here.



Yeah where is he...?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I dig these and have one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> $45 a pop.
> 
> MINT NOS NIB 1970s Pre-War Ei Smooth Plate ECC83 12AX7 with Edicron London Label and Box. Etched date code of (semicircle with dot)xx for Nish Plant from former Yugoslavia. Construction is very similar to Telefunken Smooth Plate ECC83. Desirable tubes for Guitar tone and Audio gear.



What tube store sells those?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> What tube store sells those?




PM'd.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah, the famous Edicron. They are still in business as tube brokers. Remember the RFT/Edicron's that I got from Turkey?

Joe-Do you really like the Ei's over a Tele?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ah, the famous Edicron. They are still in business as tube brokers. Remember the RFT/Edicron's that I got from Turkey?
> 
> Joe-Do you really like the Ei's over a Tele?



No. But I think its a good tube and close.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Haven't tried them yet. Japanese 12AX7's with the slant getters seem to have a better tone to them. Those Hitachi's aren't slant getters. Marty's got some Matsushitas that have the slant getters if you want to try out a Japanese tube. I have a few and really like them. Mullard like...



Far out mate. Definite food for thought. Mmm... Food...



Rockin_Lisa said:


> Tht's cool. Sounds like you've made some headway. That 1000 is like a game of Russian Scrabble. Good luck with that thing.



Yeah that thing is crazy. It's gonna be a balancing act between dialing it in, and just plain letting it rock. Make sense? I'm gradually discovering that no matter whose songs I play, and no matter how good the effects or amp... I'm just plain gonna sound like me no matter what. Even if my playing is so-so... At least I'm having fun.

How about you? How's your musical adventure going?



thrawn86 said:


> I have nothing of consequence to add this evening as I enjoy my Fire Rock ale and a BBQ chicken pizza before I collapse into bed. I just like to visit here occasionally......everyone in here I know I can trust, you like me, I like you; it's kinda like an online Cheers. Or a side room at a loud party where the reaaaaaly cool stuff is goin' down, like NOS tubes in Marshalls being played or a fine Brandy or Whiskey being sampled. Out there it's a cacophany.


... I like the way you think!



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Josh I just watched your ACDC vid and it rocked!



... It ain't great, but it sure is fun. I'm actually uploading a couple more... Goofed up as usual, but just fun.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What would happen if I stuck a 33-35 Tele in V2 of the 2203? I think it will handle it. I think that amp loves high gain tubes.

Jon the trickster, did put the Raytheon BP in V2 and tested it, but has yet to reply to my email about if it sounded different.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> PM'd.



Oh sure... Keep that little scret to yourselves...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

MartyStrat54 said:


> What would happen if I stuck a 33-35 Tele in V2 of the 2203? I think it will handle it. I think that amp loves high gain tubes.





Well when you do it, let us know what happens.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> What would happen if I stuck a 33-35 Tele in V2 of the 2203? I think it will handle it. I think that amp loves high gain tubes.
> 
> Jon the trickster, did put the Raytheon BP in V2 and tested it, but has yet to reply to my email about if it sounded different.



When does that beautiful lady find her way home to you?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> When does that beautiful lady find her way home to you?



I think that I should see it on Wednesday. A mid week treat. Not one, but two amps. I'm sorta more anxious to play the 2203. Even Jon said it had more bite.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think that I should see it on Wednesday. A mid week treat. Not one, but two amps. I'm sorta more anxious to play the 2203. Even Jon said it had more bite.



Man... I'd kill to be there when you plug in! I get goosebumps just thinkin' about it.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Well I'm glad everyone was here, but it's time for me to go. Just thought I would pop in. Everything is going great and I appreciate the support and the respect of my privacy. Thank you.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

joshuaaewallen said:


> Man... I'd kill to be there when you plug in! I get goosebumps just thinkin' about it.



Josh, watch the goosebumps.

Later.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Well I'm glad everyone was here, but it's time for me to go. Just thought I would pop in. Everything is going great and I appreciate the support and the respect of my privacy. Thank you.



Ditto. I have to be up for work in 6 hours & 17 minutes. Ya'll have a good night!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Josh, watch the goosebumps.
> 
> Later.



I like watching goosebumps...  Hey, have a good night. See ya!


----------



## MartyStrat54

See ya Josh. You too Joe.


----------



## solarburn

Alright! Night gang.


----------



## solarburn

FYI tubestore.com is having a 15% off sale on JJ tubes. JJSale2010 is coupon code. Till 6-30-10


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well now I'm here, but we are still missing Alan. Then the gang would all be here.





I'm still here, where I've been sitting since 8 a.m this morning (yesterday morning). Just about tangled with my business partner here at the office. Drank a couple of beers and got a headache. Just wrapping things up. I have a little treat in store when I get home, if nobody pulls me over and takes it away from me before I get there (knock, knock).


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> What would happen if I stuck a 33-35 Tele in V2 of the 2203? I think it will handle it. I think that amp loves high gain tubes.



I'm starting to think that high-gain works in any position up to a certain point, as long as you keep the ratio the same from one position to the next. I still have a lower gain tube in V1, it's just that 29-30 is low in relation to the 35-36 JPR in V2! 






































Whew... somehow all that describes exatly how I'm feeling right now.


----------



## RiverRatt

Please if anybody quotes that last one, delete the IMG tags... it looks like my photobucket account threw up.


----------



## solarburn

Looks like you had a rough day...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I just recently hired a chick to help out. I used to work with her at another job and she's good. BUT, she wanted some time off between jobs so she packed up her family and took off to Florida for a week. I think she's coming on-board after the 4th. I should be on a much more normal schedule after that.


----------



## BluesRocker

Anyone home tonight?


----------



## kanders1

Preamp tubes and sockets questions:

1. On my '77 MK II 1987, what's the problem when I move a preamp tube in V1 and V2 a little or move the wires connected to the socket, and I get crackling/popping sounds? I'm guessing it's the tube sockets, which seem to have loose pin connectors, i.e. I can wiggle each wire on the inside and the lug to which it's attached moves around in the plastic socket, along with its pin "channel" on the outside.

I can't seem to nail down a specific pin/wire/connection that causes the crackling. Isn't a tube socket just a group of isolated connectors with wires attached to most of them, or is there something else going on within the socket that could short two connectors together when wiggled? I've tried prying around the pin sockets to squeeze them for a tighter tube fit, but that didn't seem to help the loose connectors on the inside. Is there anything else I could try to avoid having to replace the sockets, like perhaps bending the inside connector lugs a certain way, or squirting a little rubber cement or some kind of insulating glue around them to keep them from moving?


2. I've got new Tung-Sol 12AX7 tubes. They sound like they're working OK (except for the issue 1. above), they get hot, but I don't see a glowing filament like I do in my old GT tubes. Should I?


Thanks for all the help,
Kevin


----------



## thetragichero

anyone know where i can find out what brand 12ax7 came stock in a 1997 dsl100?
i can't see any other markings besides the marshall-branding

in other news, i'm going to follow marty's advice and order a few boxes for the lady... and pm him to order some more tubes!


----------



## ken361

thetragichero said:


> anyone know where i can find out what brand 12ax7 came stock in a 1997 dsl100?
> i can't see any other markings besides the marshall-branding
> 
> in other news, i'm going to follow marty's advice and order a few boxes for the lady... and pm him to order some more tubes!



maybe EI's


----------



## MM54

A bit late, but here are the pictures of the GE that looks a lot like those Japanese tubes from a couple pages back. I have two of them, haven't tried them out yet:






What do we know of these?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Whew... somehow all that describes exatly how I'm feeling right now.



The chick with Tommy Chong is the one that had the best scene in the movie. Tommy is bored so he starts cutting up some Clorox. "His" girlfriend comes in and is like, "Baby I love you." He tries to stop her, but she's a whore addict and she snorts two big old lines up of Clorox. They put the camera on her face and she practically overloads. She is in a major convulsion. Then she composes herself and tells Tommy, "Smooth!" Oh man I loved that movie. I might have to rent it.

TOOB TALK-Yeah Alan. I have gone from 24-24 V1 preamp tubes to at least 28-28. Everyone wants that added bite you get with a hotter tube in V1. I really don't think it affects the clean channel that much. Could you make the clean channel cleaner? Yes, but the hot crunchy sound is so much fun, isn't it?

So, now I will be doing some major tube rolling in that JMP 2203. With just two tubes, it will be easy to hear what is going on. I got one of those big, high gain Mullard's in V3. Hell maybe I'll put it in V1.

@@@thetragichero-1997 DSL? Yeah I would have to say Ei preamp tubes and Svetlana EL34's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> The chick with Tommy Chong is the one that had the best scene in the movie. Tommy is bored so he starts cutting up some Clorox. "His" girlfriend comes in and is like, "Baby I love you." He tries to stop her, but she's a whore addict and she snorts two big old lines up of Clorox. They put the camera on her face and she practically overloads. She is in a major convulsion. Then she composes herself and tells Tommy, "Smooth!" Oh man I loved that movie. I might have to rent it.
> 
> TOOB TALK-Yeah Alan. I have gone from 24-24 V1 preamp tubes to at least 28-28. Everyone wants that added bite you get with a hotter tube in V1. I really don't think it affects the clean channel that much. Could you make the clean channel cleaner? Yes, but the hot crunchy sound is so much fun, isn't it?
> 
> So, now I will be doing some major tube rolling in that JMP 2203. With just two tubes, it will be easy to hear what is going on. I got one of those big, high gain Mullard's in V3. Hell maybe I'll put it in V1.
> 
> @@@thetragichero-1997 DSL? Yeah I would have to say Ei preamp tubes and Svetlana EL34's.



Oh shit I remember that scene now. Been awhile but she was bat shit crazy snort'n that clorox hahaha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't talk about bats and bat shit. I've been invaded by a Federally protected species of bats. They are in my chimmey and it is 40 feet tall. I have the front of the fireplace all secure right now. Dude, I woke up not once, but twice with a bat on my chest. The only thing that really freaks me out is that they carry rabies. Anyway, I've had to physically catch and remove eight of the little furry bastids. It's funny. A bat just can't take off. Once you got them on the floor, they are toast. Bats need about a two foot perch to hurl themselves off of to get airborne.

Anyway, I am battling bats. That's why I was so tired last night. Plus I had to get up extra early today. (Took a little nap-e-poo this afternoon.)


----------



## MM54

My uncle one time woke up to find a bat in his room and proceeded to swat it out of the air with a tennis racket.

Anything special about that tube I posted earlier?


----------



## BluesRocker

Is that why you have been so busy here lately Marty? Been battling bats? Bwaha maybe they heard the clip of that 2203 and are invading your house to hold you hostage and take it from you. Or the real question here is "Is your real name Bruce Wayne?"


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Don't talk about bats and bat shit. I've been invaded by a Federally protected species of bats. They are in my chimmey and it is 40 feet tall. I have the front of the fireplace all secure right now. Dude, I woke up not once, but twice with a bat on my chest. The only thing that really freaks me out is that they carry rabies. Anyway, I've had to physically catch and remove eight of the little furry bastids. It's funny. A bat just can't take off. Once you got them on the floor, they are toast. Bats need about a two foot perch to hurl themselves off of to get airborne.
> 
> Anyway, I am battling bats. That's why I was so tired last night. Plus I had to get up extra early today. (Took a little nap-e-poo this afternoon.)



That would creep me the F' out...

You won then right...?


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> My uncle one time woke up to find a bat in his room and proceeded to swat it out of the air with a tennis racket.
> 
> Anything special about that tube I posted earlier?



Yah it has knees...

Look how bent them legs are hehe.


----------



## thrawn86

Evening gents......

Anyone remember The Great Outdoors? Roman and Chet chasing the bat around the lodge. 'We need to rethink this.....I think we underestimated him; he looks like a Pounder to me.'


----------



## nedcronin

Hey Tube Experts, can you guys please enlighten me as to which tube is V2 in a TSL 60 head?


----------



## nedcronin

Wait I think I found it on the schematic...it's up front please just confirm for me if you could be so kind.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> My uncle one time woke up to find a bat in his room and proceeded to swat it out of the air with a tennis racket.



I went caving once in college with a biology class. I came out with a bat clinging to my back. It was still winter IIRC and the biology instructor made me keep it in a shoe box in the refrigerator until spring when there were some bugs around.



MM54 said:


> Anything special about that tube I posted earlier?



No, it just looks like a GE 12AX7.


----------



## nedcronin

Hi Marty, just wanted to let you know I messed around with that Electro Harmonix tube in conjunction with the JJ's on my TSL...in V1 it livened the amp up alot more than all JJ's but just a little too bright for me, so I tried it in V2 and I really like the tone. Alot more punch, tighter bass with less flab, more usable gain than all JJ's but just a tad smoother than the EH in V1. But really bursting with harmonics & very dynamic. 
But I will say I have a feeling I could become a tubaholic like the rest of you on this thread.......
PS...what did you decide on the strat?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Don't talk about bats and bat shit. I've been invaded by a Federally protected species of bats. They are in my chimmey and it is 40 feet tall. I have the front of the fireplace all secure right now. Dude, I woke up not once, but twice with a bat on my chest. The only thing that really freaks me out is that they carry rabies. Anyway, I've had to physically catch and remove eight of the little furry bastids. It's funny. A bat just can't take off. Once you got them on the floor, they are toast. Bats need about a two foot perch to hurl themselves off of to get airborne.
> 
> Anyway, I am battling bats. That's why I was so tired last night. Plus I had to get up extra early today. (Took a little nap-e-poo this afternoon.)



Speaking of guano...

My brother has a house (built in 18-something) in Arkansaw, WI (no, I didn't spell it wrong) that had a _*major*_ bat infestation. _*MAJOR*_. To begin with, there was 2-3ft of guano filling the attic. To add to that, multiple wall cavities (most of them actually) were filled, literally packed w/ guano and little bat corpses. Suffice to say we had to gut the entire house, not to mention how glad I was to be wearing a respirator while doing the tear out!

I've never seen anything like it before.

Pleasant dreams everyone!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Still thinking about it. I'm trying not to let the G.A.S. get in the way.


----------



## RiverRatt

Now this is what I'm talking about... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/AUDIO-TUBE-original-12AX7-Matsushita-D-getter-Japan-/370212234809?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56325e6639


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Now this is what I'm talking about...
> 
> AUDIO TUBE = original 12AX7 Matsushita D-getter Japan - eBay (item 370212234809 end time Jul-01-10 17:16:00 PDT)



You gonna buy it? Thats the one we covet...


----------



## Michael1987xl

MartyStrat54 said:


> The only thing that really freaks me out is that they carry rabies.



Not to derail the thread, but as someone who is actively involved in Bat Conservation and actually works with them quite frequently, I've got step in on that one, Marty.

I know that no one wants them in their house, they're a little creepy looking and, because the bats we've got in North America are insect eaters that the guano is unbelieveably acidic and pungent, but bats don't "carry rabies" as a rule. While any mammal, wild or domesticated, can certainly contract the disease, in fact, bats are actually far less prone to have rabies than any dogs or cats you come across in your neighborhood. Any neighborhood, by the way.

Keep in mind that bats aren't rodents and, on this continent anyway, don't bite or eat other animals to survive, so the likelihood of them contracting rabies is extremely low. Well less than 1% of all bats tested, whether caught alive or found dead are ever found to be infected and this is monitored very closely. Even carnivorous or "vampire bats" (lots of those in Mexico) are rarely infected with the disease. In other countries where bats are fruit eating, there are virtually no cases of infected bats to be found.

Thank you for your attention. Now, back to your regularly scheduled tube rolling.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You gonna buy it? Thats the one we covet...



I dunno.. thinking about it. If you want it, go ahead. I'm not gonna cry over it. I don't post the ones I'm really serious about 

Long plates and D getter... it's tempting.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I dunno.. thinking about it. If you want it, go ahead. I'm not gonna cry over it. I don't post the ones I'm really serious about
> 
> Long plates and D getter... it's tempting.



I don't have time now. If you get it and decide you might want to sell I'll buy it from you...if its decent hehe. Sounds like it will be. I have some Matsushitas slants from them that tested similar and they are good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You gonna buy it? Thats the one we covet...



Good grief you guys, trio's of them have been going for $29. That's too high. So he took a pretty picture and the logo looks good. It could still be a dill pickle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Michael1987xl said:


> Not to derail the thread, but as someone who is actively involved in Bat Conservation and actually works with them quite frequently, I've got step in on that one, Marty.



Hey thanks for the advance education. All these years I've been under the impression that bats had a high percentage of rabies.

Well now I know and it's a good thing as one was sleeping with me last night. I finally figured out they were coming in through a second opening and by 2:30 AM I was sleeping bat free.

I know about bat shit though. Did a lot of cave exploring in Arizona. Some caves you couldn't go in, they were too toxic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just for fun...


----------



## MartyStrat54

+1


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lmao


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lmfao


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, now I feel better. There was a reason behind that, trust me.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, now I feel better. There was a reason behind that, trust me.



Gonna tell us what the reason was mate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if I did, I'd have to shoot myself. Then I wouldn't be able to play my new amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

God I love the smell of tubes in the morning.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Ya know Joe, Ya know, both you and Alan have commented on my dogs, so I figured I'd share this video of Duke... I've decided to nick-name him "The Marshall Mutt" because he really seems to dig Marshall amps and Wilder mods rockin' those classic AC/DC riffs...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aEYcMZZsfw[/ame]

Suffice to say, between the handiwork of Mr. Marshall & Mr. Wilder, with the Martimus Maximus tone pack... This thing kicks butt!

-----------

I'd sure love to be rockin' my Wilder/Marshall, but I'd rather not plug it in during this kinda weather... I'd cry if it got blown out by lighting!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzPOmg-ZI3g[/ame]

http://news.webshots.com/slideshow/461277084MXykBg


----------



## thrawn86

@ Marty: P-P-P-Postcount!


----------



## MartyStrat54

And the golden statue goes out to "Thrawn." Yes Thrawn nailed the question. You see, there are those who are racking up post counts with the above mentioned posts. It goes like this:

Wow dude. That's a narly JMP.

+1

Ha-ha-ha. You know that was funny.

lmao

Ha-ha-ha. No man, I mean you are really funny.

lmfao

I'm not saying it's bad, but I would want the majority of my posts to be answers where I am helping someone.

Oh and Thrawn, you also get a can of tuna in water. Great with crackers and a cold one.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good grief you guys, trio's of them have been going for $29. That's too high. So he took a pretty picture and the logo looks good. It could still be a dill pickle.



Yeah, I know $30 is high... that's why the hesitation. f you have some Matsushita D's or run across some you don't want at 3/$29, seriously, let me know. You've got all my contact stuff. That's my current favorite V1 tube and I've only got one good one. Well, I've got 2 but one is noisy. The third one I had got away from me somehow.


----------



## nedcronin

You guys running a singles thread here or do you respond to people asking about their preamp tubes?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

nedcronin said:


> You guys running a singles thread here or do you respond to people asking about their preamp tubes?



Nah... You're not my type. 
_____________________________________________

I haven't played this card yet, so I'm gonna give this a try and see if it floats...

Hey!  I started this thread, so I think I have the right to do whatever I bloody want! 

Just kidding...


----------



## nedcronin

Well allrighty then...just wondering because it;s the preamp tube thread, and when I ask questions no one answers unless I PM marty....just talk about bats & such....If it's an exclusive thread I'll find answers elsewhere thanks anyway


----------



## joshuaaewallen

nedcronin said:


> Well allrighty then...just wondering because it;s the preamp tube thread, and when I ask question no one answers unless I PM marty....just talk about bats & such....If it's an exclusive thread I'll find answers elsewhere thanks anyway


 Just yankin' yer chain mate.

But why not talk about bats?... That's what I've got in my belfry.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Didn't mean to offend. Please stick around.*



nedcronin said:


> ... when I ask questions no one answers unless I PM marty....



I've read your questions bro, but I just don't know the answers. Usually the other guys who actually have brains take care of that. Sorry for that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Ned, what's up? Let me know.


----------



## RiverRatt

nedcronin said:


> Hey Tube Experts, can you guys please enlighten me as to which tube is V2 in a TSL 60 head?



Sorry, same answer as Josh. I don't have a TSL and thought I'd let one of the TSL guys handle that one.

Your Electro-Harmonix/JJ comment was specifically directed at Marty and sounded like something you guys had already been discussing, so I left you to it.

Welcome aboard, btw. I have a bad midweek at the office and I usually just jump on here and read enough to catch up. It's easy to miss stuff when the thread is moving fast. No insult was intended and I'll gladly answer any questions that I can give an answer to.

Nice avatar, BTW. Is it an old white (yellowed) LP Custom? Very Steve Jones.


----------



## RiverRatt

Now, tube time. I think I made a new friend yesterday. There's a dude who's opened up one of those thrift/bargain stores that are popping up everywhere. He's got some really interesting gear in the place, like an old 1" tape machine from Sun studios (the newer one). He's friends with Jerry Phillips, son of Sun producer Sam Phillips and got a lot of gear from him (the tape machine is for sale for $500 - supposedly U2 used it when they recorded in Memphis). He had an Ampeg VT-60 and an old Ampeg white panel 4x10 bass amp in there. I bought a Rocktron Tsunami chorus pedal for $20 from him. His dad was a tech and he has an RCA and a Zenith tube service caddy and boxes and boxes of tubes at home. I asked him to look through his stash and see if he has any of the usual crop that he can part with. I'm supposed to stop back in and see what he found this weekend or next week sometime. He knows what he has, but he said if I ever needed some tubes to call on him. Independent research has confirmed that he has what he says. This place looks to be a really cool addition to the local music scene.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh-None of that was aimed at you or anybody on the preamp thread.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh and Thrawn, you also get a can of tuna in water. Great with crackers and a cold one.



Awesome! lol  postcount


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'm on the same page w/ of you here regarding CP tubes. I have a bunch, but w/ the Maximus tone packs I have, there's just no desire to deviate from NOS. I had originally intended to roll them. Perhaps one of these day's I'll send all my CP tubes to Marty for him to test. I've been curious for a long time how the numbers on the CP's I have compare w/ all of our NOS tubes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Awesome! lol  postcount



You and I could play this game forever.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> You and I could play this game forever.



Hasn't it been forever already?


----------



## solarburn

TELEFUNK ME!

Love em'!

I'm playing UFO's "Rock Bottom" with my EC1000 with 81/60 EMG's plugged into my VOX "Classic Rock" AMPLUG!

SS never sounded so Kewl!!!!!!!!!

Toobs are better though.

Anyone know whats in V1 & V2 of my Night Train?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Anyone know whats in V1 & V2 of my Night Train?



Did you finally go nuclear?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Did you finally go nuclear?



Good gawd that amp goes nuclear when I play my EMG's through it. Wow!

I'll put that JRP to it tomorrow. Right now I have the Telefunken in V1(of course)and a Matshushita slant in the PI. It sounds great but I'm going to see if I can squeeze some more chewiness out of it with some other tube I have in the inventory. So tomorrow I'll put the JRP through both slots and see and then I'll try my BP in the PI and see how that goes.


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'm on the same page w/ of you here regarding CP tubes. I have a bunch, but w/ the Maximus tone packs I have, there's just no desire to deviate from NOS. I had originally intended to roll them. Perhaps one of these day's I'll send all my CP tubes to Marty for him to test. I've been curious for a long time how the numbers on the CP's I have compare w/ all of our NOS tubes...



I wholeheartedly agree with this. I have a backup set of CP junk (stocker valves), and have considered picking up some Mullard RI's and Tung Sols, etc., for a more reliable backup, but as long as my 'Pack is running strong, what's the need? I may roll them in just to see what they sound like, to compare them with the NOS that I have, but other than that, they're going on a shelf. I dig the NOS and openly recommend them to anyone on a 'tonequest'.

We need a new Social Group.....something along the lines of "The NOS Continuum" or the like. Then we can corksniff in our own virtual lounge.


----------



## RobS

Tung Sol....great sounding as I posted a few weeks back BUT.....last night we were playing and all of a sudden I thought my guitar volume was down but no.........the Tung went Bung.
Lost about 80% of its gain. very dissapointing considering it has been in the amp for about a month. Luckily I had an EH spare with me and popped it in V1 after the amp cooled down a bit and all was good again.
Funny though, no crackles, pops or anything.....just seemed to have shit itself. It still lit up but as you all know 2203's are very loud and with the master at 4 it sounded like it was at 0.5.

Shame because I really liked the sound of that tube.

Anyone else had a similar issue like this? 

It's the first time a preamp tube has done this to me and at first I thought it was a power tube but all was fine after putting the EH in. The EH can stay for now!

Rob


----------



## nedcronin

No problem guys thanks for the welcome.. didn't mean to be cranky.


----------



## solarburn

nedcronin said:


> No problem guys thanks for the welcome.. didn't mean to be cranky.



Did you find out what you needed?


----------



## solarburn

RobS said:


> Tung Sol....great sounding as I posted a few weeks back BUT.....last night we were playing and all of a sudden I thought my guitar volume was down but no.........the Tung went Bung.
> Lost about 80% of its gain. very dissapointing considering it has been in the amp for about a month. Luckily I had an EH spare with me and popped it in V1 after the amp cooled down a bit and all was good again.
> Funny though, no crackles, pops or anything.....just seemed to have shit itself. It still lit up but as you all know 2203's are very loud and with the master at 4 it sounded like it was at 0.5.
> 
> Shame because I really liked the sound of that tube.
> 
> Anyone else had a similar issue like this?
> 
> It's the first time a preamp tube has done this to me and at first I thought it was a power tube but all was fine after putting the EH in. The EH can stay for now!
> 
> Rob



I had a JJ go on me with about 4hrs on it and made this horrendous humming sound thats all that could be heard. I haven't had a Tung Sol go early on me but hey it can happen to any new tube. I've had a few make different sounds from ringing to crackling and humming obnoxiously.

Oh and power tubes with intermittent pops. You tend to notice those quickly...


----------



## RiverRatt

RobS said:


> Tung Sol....great sounding as I posted a few weeks back BUT.....last night we were playing and all of a sudden I thought my guitar volume was down but no.........the Tung went Bung.
> Lost about 80% of its gain. very dissapointing considering it has been in the amp for about a month. Luckily I had an EH spare with me and popped it in V1 after the amp cooled down a bit and all was good again.
> Funny though, no crackles, pops or anything.....just seemed to have shit itself. It still lit up but as you all know 2203's are very loud and with the master at 4 it sounded like it was at 0.5.
> 
> Shame because I really liked the sound of that tube.
> 
> Anyone else had a similar issue like this?
> 
> It's the first time a preamp tube has done this to me and at first I thought it was a power tube but all was fine after putting the EH in. The EH can stay for now!
> 
> Rob



When I worked at a music store back in the mid '90's we were a St. Louis Music dealer. This was back when Lee Jackson and Obeid Khan were designing tube amps for Crate and Ampeg. It was always fun when you unpacked a new amp and hit the power switch for the first time with those Chinese tubes. It wasn't a question of would a preamp tube fail, it was more like how many. I've seen them go off like a flashbulb, some would make a high-pitched whine or whistle before they went, others just wouldn't work.

This is one of the reasons I like old tubes. I can't remember a single failure since we started this thread, other than just buying a tube that was weak, noisy or microphonic when I got it.

Sorry - I had to edit this. I had no idea that Obeid Khan makes Reason Amps. I just googled him and found his info. Check out this vid - pretty sweet sounding amp, especially IMO with the Les Paul.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmV1gjZL-b8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmV1gjZL-b8[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> When I worked at a music store back in the mid '90's we were a St. Louis Music dealer. This was back when Lee Jackson and Obeid Khan were designing tube amps for Crate and Ampeg. It was always fun when you unpacked a new amp and hit the power switch for the first time with those Chinese tubes. It wasn't a question of would a preamp tube fail, it was more like how many. I've seen them go off like a flashbulb, some would make a high-pitched whine or whistle before they went, others just wouldn't work.
> 
> This is one of the reasons I like old tubes. I can't remember a single failure since we started this thread, other than just buying a tube that was weak, noisy or microphonic when I got it.
> 
> Sorry - I had to edit this. I had no idea that Obeid Khan makes Reason Amps. I just googled him and found his info. Check out this vid - pretty sweet sounding amp, especially IMO with the Les Paul.
> 
> YouTube - Reason Bambino Grande Quick Demo



Yeah that's pretty tasty. That player is getting some good tone out it.


----------



## MM54

Back on tubes (for a short moment)

If that one was a normal GE 12AX7, what's this one? Just a different normal GE (with straight pins this time)?
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/ge2.jpg

Also, the 12AX7 stamp on this Zenith tube looks really familiar, but I can't put my finger on it (I'm really off this morning). Too dark for RCA, underneath it has U.S.A. 3.
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/zenith.jpg


----------



## RiverRatt

There's several different G.E. tube designs. I've never really studied the differences, though. G.E. relabeled a lot of other manufacturers tubes, too.

That Zenith tube might be an old Tung-Sol. Does it have grey plates? I've seen that thick, silvery stamp on several different makes of tubes. I've got an RCA that is without a doubt an RCA but it has that stamp, too. RCA's usually have a much thinner font and octagon.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Back on tubes (for a short moment)
> 
> If that one was a normal GE 12AX7, what's this one? Just a different normal GE (with straight pins this time)?
> http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/ge2.jpg
> 
> Also, the 12AX7 stamp on this Zenith tube looks really familiar, but I can't put my finger on it (I'm really off this morning). Too dark for RCA, underneath it has U.S.A. 3.
> http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/zenith.jpg



Yeah...we really should hehe.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, the plates are gray. I'm half tempted to go dig through my box of near-worthless tubes to find out where I've seen that dark black thick stamp before >.<


----------



## MM54

I know I've seen it before, but I couldn't find any with the same style stamp. The old Tung-Sols that I saw all had a larger octagon (proportions of a stop sign).

Then again, it'd be surprising if I could find anything quickly in this:
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/toobz.jpg
(That's all the tubes I have that I can test that test good. There's at least that many more that I can't test . I like the couple loctals. They're funny.)

Edit: The exception in that picture is a 7868 - I can't test it but they're worth something from what I've seen. Some time I'll go through the ones I can't test and find if any are worth enough to bother getting them tested.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Back on tubes (for a short moment)
> 
> If that one was a normal GE 12AX7, what's this one? Just a different normal GE (with straight pins this time)?
> http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/ge2.jpg
> 
> Also, the 12AX7 stamp on this Zenith tube looks really familiar, but I can't put my finger on it (I'm really off this morning). Too dark for RCA, underneath it has U.S.A. 3.
> http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t283/Mightymatt54/zenith.jpg



The GE tube is a GE and the Zenith is an RCA.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The fact that the tube is a 12AX7A denotes it to be a newer tube. I don't think it would be a Tung-Sol. I would be more inclined to say that the acid etch was a tad heavy on a batch of tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I looked again and now I question myself. That octagon looks to be painted on and there is a "dot" above the "A." That's odd. I've never seen that before. Several companies use the octagon, but RCA was acid etched. This seems to be something other than an RCA.


----------



## MM54

I thought so, haha.

When I get home I'll take some better pictures of it and search for codes, etc.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah that's pretty tasty. That player is getting some good tone out it.



Yeah, Reason amps. Not to be confused with Risson amps.

Famous Musicians & Risson

The Risson's are back in production and all the parts are from the 80's.

I've dealt with Bob before and he is a really nice guy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> TELEFUNK ME!
> 
> Love em'!
> 
> Anyone know whats in V1 & V2 of my Night Train?



A Shuguang 9th Generation and a CBS Hytron?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I looked again and now I question myself. That octagon looks to be painted on and there is a "dot" above the "A." That's odd. I've never seen that before. Several companies use the octagon, but RCA was acid etched. This seems to be something other than an RCA.



Here's a picture of my Tung-Sol from about 1954. Note the similarities:


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok I am on the prowl now. Just got home from a pretty day driving the corvette. I always get a lot of looks from old people cause they see this 20-something kid driving a 74 stingray. Oh well whats new in the preamp world?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's what I hate is that Tung-Sol copied the RCA octagon. Some of the Tung-Sol's have a thinner border and get confused for an RCA. Does your "7" have a longer tail than the one in guestion? Well a 1954 was a very good year (my birth year), but it was before the 12AX7A's. However the construction looks to be the same.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Ok I am on the prowl now. Just got home from a pretty day driving the corvette. I always get a lot of looks from old people cause they see this 20-something kid driving a 74 stingray. Oh well whats new in the preamp world?



I miss my old 1969 L-88 Sting Ray. Man I loved to make any excuse to drive that car.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I miss my old 1969 L-88 Sting Ray. Man I loved to make any excuse to drive that car.



This one is still in the process of restoring but it is drivable. Still needs a few tuneups on the engine and an overdrive put in the tranny. It sucks not having that passing gear in it. I love driving it though. Nothing like having a 60 mph wind and some Detroit muscle as your music.

Thats a nice ride Marty. I wish this one had sidepipes on it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Here she is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you have the vacuum canister problem? I see your headlights are in the up position.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah they need to be fixed. I only drive it in the day time cause I put them down. If I drive it at night I have to manually pull them up. LOL Like I said it needs some tuning up, got it cheap, so I didnt expect show quality.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a couple of better pictures. I think the "7" in the first picture just had a shadow under it. It looks normal here. The micas have holes in them but not as big as the ones on MM's tube. His tube also has a halo getter and mine has a D foil getter. I think his is a Tung-Sol but later production, hence the "A" designation. I have no idea what the 1 or I stamped above the octagon on my tube means.


----------



## MM54

I'm trying to fix my friends old Admiral radio from the 30s, need to head home soon to see if I have the right tubes. I think it may be more than that, though.

On a less fun note, it was plugged in upside down, and if it had a "death cap" system in it, it failed. I went to turn the built-in phonograph on and the metal housing of it provided me a nice 120v hand-massage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh that sounds lovely. Aren't you glad you weren't shaving?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know Alan, I am flabbergasted by all the unknowns in the history of tubes. There is just so much speculation out there. Hell, I'll bet if we knew the real truth to all of it, we would be shaking our heads. 

"GE made tubes for who?"

"RCA bought tubes from E. Germany?"

You know, stuff like that.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay. I'm going to throw you a big curve here. First......

*SCORE!!!*

My son's 18th birthday was today. We were headed to the lake for a family and friends cookout and a severe thunderstorm got in the way. SO, we decided to postpone it until tomorrow. We told him to pick a restaurant and he chose one in a north Mississippi town not far away. We got out of the restaurant and there was a Goodwill store in the parking lot next to it, so we went there. My wife didn't want to go because it closed in 15 minutes. I insisted. We get in there and I head to the old furniture and stuff to see if there's anything with tubes in it there.

There sits two big wooden cabinets with Magnavox on the outside. I go to the more interesting looking one. 






So I look at the back of it and quickly start pulling tubes out and dusting them off, so naturally I get a quick "Can I help you, sir?" 






I point to the "needs work" sticker and the piece of paper that has prices starting at $49.95 and marked down gradually to $19.95. I told her that I was interested in this item. The second cabinet was a record album holder with two smallish speakers mounted in it. I knew I'd never get both home, so to make a long story short, I took the phonograph side home with me.

The amp is a stereo setup with three 12AX7's, four 6V6GT's, a 5U4GB rectifier, a huge PT, 2 OT's and a choke. This thing is a 2-channel guitar amp just waiting to happen. It has a loudness control and bass & treble controls, and a mono/stereo speaker selector. There's a stamp under the amp model that says 2 11 9 which I'm assuming is February 11, 1959.

Marty, this is where you come in. Note that one 12AX7 is missing. Shucks. The visible one is a plain-Jane Sylvania. The third one with the metal shield on it is marked on the chassis as a 7025. I'm figuring it's going to be an RCA so I open it up.






Yep, It's one of those mystery side-getter 12AX7's I'm so fond of. It is stamped 7025 EXACTLY the same as Matt's 12AX7A and the Tung-Sol I posted. Silver stamp, really thick border and numbers. It also has a 6-digit code on it.






Now it gets really weird. I look up that number and the first 3 digits (787) come up as the EIA code for Sonotone, listed as a manufacturer of phonograph cartridges. I'm assuming this is the preamp and the other 2 tubes are phase inverters for each side of the amp. This is the second phonograph I've found with this tube in it, yet there is virtually no history on Sonotone, and what little I've found indicates that they never manufactured a single tube. So what the hell are these things? Some freak batch of RCA experiments that they sold to Sonotone? Either way, I have fun new toy to play with.

Now, I have to mention the speakers. They are all marked Magnavox with similar numbers to the ones on the speakers in the picture. It has that monster 18" in it, 2 like the small one on the left of the picture, and two little 3 or 4" speakers that are black frames. I wish I hadn't have had to leave the second cabinet behind, but all in all I'm pretty happy with this purchase.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Way to go Ratt, way to go. What price did you pay? Yes, that would make a killer little two channel. Too bad Jon or Joey couldn't dick with it and turn it into a dual Blues Junior. 

As far as Sonotone, I thought you knew that they make tubes in the USA and in Germany?

Sonotone History Tubes, Hi-Fi Electronics, Tape Heads and Nicad Batteries

Sonotone Germany New (NOS) Made by Siemens. 

Anyway, you got a good piece. Just think of all those fancy furniture grade consoles that were made for the wealthy? My mom and dad could never afford that. Not with nine kids sitting at the table.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked it up for $20. I told them just to keep the extension cabinet since I have no idea when I can get back down there.

Yeah, I thought about sending it out to somebody for a professional job. I'll bet it sounds absolutely killer. No hurries, I've got more time than anything else. I'll see what options I can come up with. It's probably closer to a Princeton or Deluxe circuit than a Blues Jr. I was thinking maybe making it into a dual channel Deluxe.

How about that big ol' 18" speaker with the capacitor stuck on it? I'm assuming that's some kind of passive treble cut thing. Are those speakers worth anything?


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, thanks for the Sonotone link. I've never seen that page.


----------



## BluesRocker

Nice pickup Ratt. I bet that thing will sound awesome once fixed up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As you probably can tell, all of the speakers are low wattage models. That big old 18-inch probably can handle about 40 watts of program power. Yes the cap cuts the high frequencies out of the 18, probably around 800Hz. That 18 is more like a loud mid-bass speaker. If you tried to put a real 40Hz signal to it, it would explode.

Yeah, I don't know why I said Blues Junior. I think I was thinking about Carl's Junior. Yeah the Deluxe would be more like it power section wise. The topology of the Magnavox preamp is probably way different being that it is a HiFi amp. That's were someone like Jon or Joey would have to look at a Fender Deluxe preamp schematic and tweak the values around. However, it can be done. It just takes $$$.


----------



## MM54

Nice find Alan! Why can't I ever come across stuff like that ?

On a side note: I checked this morning, and there actually is a dot above the A on that 12AX7A I mentioned a few posts ago, with the big black thick stamp.


----------



## Wingnut

Hello Everyone
Im a new person to this forum and so happy i joined..!
I am on page 27 of this thread so I have a lot to learn but would like
some advice...PLEASE....
I have a jcm2000 dsl 50/1960a jcm2000 limited edition(what ever that means) cabinet...with G12T-75
I have not used this equipment in many years and a friend has been
using it for the last three..ANY WAY
There is no hiss or pops or things like that but...Its not right..LOL
Now...I know that I should have this retubed and Biased....
My question is if the tubes that are in the amp now are stock or just
some tubes my friend put in??????
v1 =12ax7 Svetlana
v2,v3,v4 7025/12ax7wa sovtek
electo-harmonix el34 power tubes
Ill get to what im looking for in tone later....!
Thank you so much....Wingnut


----------



## mariajim

*Motorcycle Jackets*

Tubes in microphones for example stay there their whole life usually, there is no socket to change them.

I don´t know how they will affect your sound, but that´s very hard to tell anyway. 

Thanks
Maria Jim
*mod deleted*


----------



## solarburn

Alan I've got the JRP in the PI of the NT. Sounds real good. Nice articulation with the Telefunken. Pretty good match so far. I still need to turn it on 15 watt mode. Wanted to let you know I'm at it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Joe I should get the RFT and the Ei this week. Ill let ye know when they come in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn Alan, you're getting popular around here. Nothing like some friendly tube rolling courtesy of the U.S. Mail.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alan I've got the JRP in the PI of the NT. Sounds real good. Nice articulation with the Telefunken. Pretty good match so far. I still need to turn it on 15 watt mode. Wanted to let you know I'm at it.



Joe how does the NT take high gainers in V1. Does it like it, or does it start to fart out?


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty I meant to ask you last week. When we chatted, you have any "interesting" tubes for a V1 or V2? maybe a PI?


----------



## thrawn86

Wingnut said:


> Hello Everyone
> Im a new person to this forum and so happy i joined..!
> I am on page 27 of this thread so I have a lot to learn but would like
> some advice...PLEASE....
> I have a jcm2000 dsl 50/1960a jcm2000 limited edition(what ever that means) cabinet...with G12T-75
> I have not used this equipment in many years and a friend has been
> using it for the last three..ANY WAY
> There is no hiss or pops or things like that but...Its not right..LOL
> Now...I know that I should have this retubed and Biased....
> My question is if the tubes that are in the amp now are stock or just
> some tubes my friend put in??????
> v1 =12ax7 Svetlana
> v2,v3,v4 7025/12ax7wa sovtek
> electo-harmonix el34 power tubes
> Ill get to what im looking for in tone later....!
> Thank you so much....Wingnut



I may be wrong, but that sounds like replacements.

Anyone else?


----------



## RobS

I picked up a Phillips miniwatt 12ax7 today. NOS unused.
Great sounding tube. According to the guy I got it from they were made at the Aussie factory in the mid 60's. I just got 1 to start with and he is holding 2 more for me......looks like I'll be going back and getting the other 2.
Sound qualities are warm, high gain, excellent harmonics and it has that really nice rolling almost phaserish (is that a word) sound when playing full chords and allowing them to ring out.

It cost me $30 AUD and was well worth the money. 

I just hope it last's longer than the Tungsol that played up on me.

Anyone else tried these? 

Googling the description on the web I found one peron that described them as an Aussie built Mullard?

In the 800 it sounds great and I guess that is all that matters hey!


----------



## solarburn

RobS said:


> I picked up a Phillips miniwatt 12ax7 today. NOS unused.
> Great sounding tube. According to the guy I got it from they were made at the Aussie factory in the mid 60's. I just got 1 to start with and he is holding 2 more for me......looks like I'll be going back and getting the other 2.
> Sound qualities are warm, high gain, excellent harmonics and it has that really nice rolling almost phaserish (is that a word) sound when playing full chords and allowing them to ring out.
> 
> It cost me $30 AUD and was well worth the money.
> 
> I just hope it last's longer than the Tungsol that played up on me.
> 
> Anyone else tried these?
> 
> Googling the description on the web I found one peron that described them as an Aussie built Mullard?
> 
> In the 800 it sounds great and I guess that is all that matters hey!



I hear these are good and I want one too.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Joe I should get the RFT and the Ei this week. Ill let ye know when they come in.



Yeah I want to hear what you think on these 2 for sure. Remember to put some volume to the RFT. It will sound darker at low volume. If you aren't crazy about the EI in your tone slots put it in the PI. I think it does well there, at least in my DSL it does. I move em' around just to see...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe how does the NT take high gainers in V1. Does it like it, or does it start to fart out?



It actually handles them pretty well and it does have the bright voicing and high gain voicing so if anything it will work on the bright side. With Alan's JRP it sounded best in the PI across both voicings. With the EC1000 running the EMG's it tightens things up too. Also on the high gain side the tone stack is bypassed and you can hit it with a eq pedal(I have a 10 band)and get it however you want. Right now I don't use the pedal with the EMG's. No need to.

Since I've been spending some time with it I have found some more great tones in her. I really need to get some recording equipment so I can do some Vid clips to show you what a lil' monster it can be on the high gain voicing. Makes me laugh. Its got to be on the 15 watt mode though to get its best for sure. The 412 with GB's helps.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> I may be wrong, but that sounds like replacements.
> 
> Anyone else?



Definitely.


----------



## triodeamplification

Tubes? This is a great topic and an old one. I have bought and tried most of the new production preamp tubes over the years. Sovtek preamp tubes are not too bad. EH,Groove tubes,Ruby,Marshall (Rebranded) are all crap with a short plate heighth and a tiny saucer for a getter. They vary depending on what they are tying to unload at any given production time. I like the JJ ECC803S as a new made tube goes.The reason for that is the plate height and surface area of this preamp tube along with that nice large halo getter are more what an old vintage tube would resemble. The S on the JJ tube means the tube is made to withstand the sonic vibrations being in a combo amp. This right here is all the proof you need that most tubes are crap and are not internally or structurally built very well. The grade of glass as well is inferior and is cheap as it gets today. I myself use 50's and 60's preamp and power tubes. The tone is superior. You have an amp with character and definition using old tubes that you wont find in using new tubes made today. Most tubes made today are very sterile and have ice picky treble. No tight bottom end or real punch that an audience can feel. You want your tone to capture the audience in there chest and entire body resonance. Not ear piercing,bleeding treble that passes right over there heads. It's like most any thing else in life. You have to experience some things before you can truly understand and know which tubes are great and which tubes are garbage added with a lot of marketing hype. Would you like to ride a bicycle or drive a caddillac?


----------



## RiverRatt

RobS said:


> I picked up a Phillips miniwatt 12ax7 today. NOS unused.
> Great sounding tube. According to the guy I got it from they were made at the Aussie factory in the mid 60's. I just got 1 to start with and he is holding 2 more for me......looks like I'll be going back and getting the other 2.
> Sound qualities are warm, high gain, excellent harmonics and it has that really nice rolling almost phaserish (is that a word) sound when playing full chords and allowing them to ring out.
> 
> It cost me $30 AUD and was well worth the money.
> 
> I just hope it last's longer than the Tungsol that played up on me.
> 
> Anyone else tried these?
> 
> Googling the description on the web I found one peron that described them as an Aussie built Mullard?
> 
> In the 800 it sounds great and I guess that is all that matters hey!



Philips owned and controlled several companies that produced 12AX7/ECC83 tubes. They share similar construction with a Mullard, but so do Amperex, Valvo, Matsushita and several others. Good find! There are several Philips tubes still on my to-do list and that's one of them.


----------



## solarburn

triodeamplification said:


> Tubes? This is a great topic and an old one. I have bought and tried most of the new production preamp tubes over the years. Sovtek preamp tubes are not too bad. EH,Groove tubes,Ruby,Marshall (Rebranded) are all crap with a short plate heighth and a tiny saucer for a getter. They vary depending on what they are tying to unload at any given production time. I like the JJ ECC803S as a new made tube goes.The reason for that is the plate height and surface area of this preamp tube along with that nice large halo getter are more what an old vintage tube would resemble. The S on the JJ tube means the tube is made to withstand the sonic vibrations being in a combo amp. This right here is all the proof you need that most tubes are crap and are not internally or structurally built very well. The grade of glass as well is inferior and is cheap as it gets today. I myself use 50's and 60's preamp and power tubes. The tone is superior. You have an amp with character and definition using old tubes that you wont find in using new tubes made today. Most tubes made today are very sterile and have ice picky treble. No tight bottom end or real punch that an audience can feel. You want your tone to capture the audience in there chest and entire body resonance. Not ear piercing,bleeding treble that passes right over there heads. It's like most any thing else in life. You have to experience some things before you can truly understand and know which tubes are great and which tubes are garbage added with a lot of marketing hype. Would you like to ride a bicycle or drive a caddillac?



I liked it alot in V1 of my DSL but the damn thing only lasted about 4hrs. It didn't sound good in my Night Train though.

Tube Store has a different view of it:

Note: Because this tube has a long plate structure it is susceptible to excessive microphonics and is therefore not recommended for use in combo amps or high gain stages. For these amps the JJ ECC83-S is a better choice.


----------



## RiverRatt

triodeamplification said:


> You have an amp with character and definition using old tubes that you wont find in using new tubes made today. Most tubes made today are very sterile and have ice picky treble. No tight bottom end or real punch that an audience can feel. You want your tone to capture the audience in there chest and entire body resonance. Not ear piercing,bleeding treble that passes right over there heads.



I personally can't stand any CP tubes anymore except for the Tung-Sol reissues. If you want to capture the sound of a solid-state amp with a blown speaker, then go with CP tubes. There are some great bargains on old tubes if you know which ones sound good. People get hung up on Mullard because they've heard of them and then they are put off by the high price. I don't even buy them - there's plenty of good old tubes out there that you can pick up for around the same price as CP.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I want to hear what you think on these 2 for sure. Remember to put some volume to the RFT. It will sound darker at low volume. If you aren't crazy about the EI in your tone slots put it in the PI. I think it does well there, at least in my DSL it does. I move em' around just to see...



Got them in today actually. Wont have time to roll them. I may have some spare time tomorrow, but I doubt it. I'll try though.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Got them in today actually. Wont have time to roll them. I may have some spare time tomorrow, but I doubt it. I'll try though.



Good! Yeah whenever you get to it BR. No hurry...


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I personally can't stand any CP tubes anymore except for the Tung-Sol reissues. If you want to capture the sound of a solid-state amp with a blown speaker, then go with CP tubes. There are some great bargains on old tubes if you know which ones sound good. People get hung up on Mullard because they've heard of them and then they are put off by the high price. I don't even buy them - there's plenty of good old tubes out there that you can pick up for around the same price as CP.



This is bang on the money. Ive picked up many a mullard/brimar/rft/philips/raytheon etc etc for the same price or less than CP valves. Currently running a long plate Mullard that i got for about £8 in v1, Raytheon CRP NOS that cost about £5 in V2, a Wurlitzer GE long plate in V3 (cost around £10) and a Hoges branded Ei in the PI position that cost about £10. An excellent sounding and reliable (well fingers corssed) combination that totals less than buying a bunch of JJ or similar stuff.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I personally can't stand any CP tubes anymore except for the Tung-Sol reissues. If you want to capture the sound of a solid-state amp with a blown speaker, then go with CP tubes. There are some great bargains on old tubes if you know which ones sound good. People get hung up on Mullard because they've heard of them and then they are put off by the high price. I don't even buy them - there's plenty of good old tubes out there that you can pick up for around the same price as CP.



Lots of great ones for the $30 range and when I'm using one at a time here and there and its still $20 cheaper than a trip to the movies with me and my daughters...Troof!


----------



## solarburn

Great time capsule pic! You all look great including the ride!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well no more movies, rent a $2 Net Flix and stay at home with a microwaved bag of butter popcorn. (That's good for the arteries.)

With all the money you save, you will have a massive stash of tubes.:cool2:


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I dunno.. thinking about it. If you want it, go ahead. I'm not gonna cry over it. I don't post the ones I'm really serious about
> 
> Long plates and D getter... it's tempting.



Well since you didn't get this I did the next day. I justified the price by deciding it sounds as good as my $30-$50 range tubes anyways and I wanted one more for the collection. It does kick arse!The impulse got me Marty! 

It sounds delish just like the other and again better that the slant Matsushitas I already have and I like how they sound too. I've got it paired with the JRP in the NT for now. Will try it in the Marshall later but it sounds good and strong. A bit more gain than the Funken SP I have in it. Cuts a hair more too. You know how these are. As far as I'm concerned these are a fantastic V1 in a DSL.

Thanx Alan for sharing the posting! Sorry Marty for pay'n too much. Blame it on my D-getter lust! 

Marty's much more Savvy than I am. Thats why I mostly buy from him hehe.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well no more movies, rent a $2 Net Flix and stay at home with a microwaved bag of butter popcorn. (That's good for the arteries.)
> 
> With all the money you save, you will have a massive stash of tubes.:cool2:



You ain't kidding!

I take it no amps yet? Are they out for delivery?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You ain't kidding!
> 
> I take it no amps yet? Are they out for delivery?



Answer given via the 2203 thread. No amps yet.They are closed for the day. The warehouse is working, but the local delivery trucks are off the road.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well since you didn't get this I did the next day. I justified the price by deciding it sounds as good as my $30-$50 range tubes anyways and I wanted one more for the collection. It does kick arse!The impulse got me Marty!
> 
> It sounds delish just like the other and again better that the slant Matsushitas I already have and I like how they sound too. I've got it paired with the JRP in the NT for now. Will try it in the Marshall later but it sounds good and strong. A bit more gain than the Funken SP I have in it. Cuts a hair more too. You know how these are. As far as I'm concerned these are a fantastic V1 in a DSL.
> 
> Thanx Alan for sharing the posting! Sorry Marty for pay'n too much. Blame it on my D-getter lust!



Good, I'm glad you got it. I knew it would be a great sounding tube if it was strong. Congrats, you're ahead of me now. I'll have to pick up the next one that comes along if it's not $80 or $90. 



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty's much more Savvy than I am. Thats why I mostly buy from him hehe.



Absolutely. I'll still gamble on a $10 & under tube if it's a Philips product, though. I like collecting Matsushitas and oddball stuff that flies under the radar on eBay.


----------



## MM54

Anything special about NU/National Union tubes? (And who are they made by?)


----------



## MartyStrat54

NATIONAL UNION was another quality USA tube manufacturer with most production dating from 1930s to 1950s. Their production numbers were significantly smaller than the big name brands (RCA, Sylvania, GE).

The NATIONAL UNION (EIA) code number is “247″. Here is an example:






(Left = Sentinel brand 6SN7GT; Right = Zenith brand 6SN7GT). Notice the 247 EIA code for National Union on the base of each tube. Both tubes were manufactured in 1951.


----------



## MM54

(Noob [not boob] alert)
So those numbers on relabeled tubes actually are useful ?
(End noob alert)

This is cropped from another picture, so not great looking. It's a 5U4 G, tests as new.




(Sitting next to it is a Raytheon 5U4GB, also tests as new)

Yes, yes, yes, not a preamp tube, I know. But we don't have a 'Rectifier Tubes? - Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How?' thread


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and if you have one of these tubes, chances are it was made before 1959.

I think National Union folded before 1963. Their 12AX7's are very rare as I believe they only did lot runs for three years.

Their main business was helping to "top off" the big companies orders.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No and we don't need a "rectifier" thread, but someone will probably start one.

Wow. That's a dandy. Coke bottle shape and looks like black plates.

90 per cent of all American made amps used the 5U4 as the rectifier. It was made in the thousands. I have over 40 and I don't even try to sell them. I got 12 new testing 5U4's on EBAY for $14. Now your tube is rare, because of the design and the brand. You might be able to get $20 out of that tube.


----------



## MM54

A rectifier thread would turn into a debate about 1N4007 vs 1N5408 diodes 

Yeah, I remember you mentioning before that 5U4's are pretty worthless. Once I get around to finally selling off some glass, I'll see what I can get for this one. It's very shiny 

(I have a 5Y3 around here somewhere, too.)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> No and we don't need a "rectifier" thread, but someone will probably start one.
> 
> Wow. That's a dandy. Coke bottle shape and looks like black plates.
> 
> 90 per cent of all American made amps used the 5U4 as the rectifier. It was made in the thousands. I have over 40 and I don't even try to sell them. I got 12 new testing 5U4's on EBAY for $14. Now your tube is rare, because of the design and the brand. You might be able to get $20 out of that tube.



Damn I had to pay $60 on my NOS BEL 5AR4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Damn I had to pay $60 on my NOS BEL 5AR4.



Well it ain't a 5U4. I wish that is what you had in your Monza 20 watter. It be cheap them for NOS.

An interesting thing I learned from Jon is that either one of those rectifiers is only good for a little over 50 watts, yet Marshall used just one 5AR4 in their 100 watt amps. Can you say SAG?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Damn I had to pay $60 on my NOS BEL 5AR4.



Just took a quick stroll on pricing the 5AR4/GZ34. The Tube Depot wants $200 for an NOS American or Euro brand. On EBAY, the Mullard's are starting at around $185. I think you got a pretty good deal on your tube. You bought two of them didn't you?

If you ever want to convert it over to a SS rectifier, they're $10.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> A rectifier thread would turn into a debate about 1N4007 vs 1N5408 diodes
> 
> Yeah, I remember you mentioning before that 5U4's are pretty worthless. Once I get around to finally selling off some glass, I'll see what I can get for this one. It's very shiny
> 
> (I have a 5Y3 around here somewhere, too.)



Oh boy, that would be a fun topic. Yeah your 5U4 looks very clean and the logo is crisp and overall I say you have a 9 out of 10.


----------



## MartyStrat54

One other thing. As you may know, tube rectification does not increase the B+ that much. It has about a 1.2 factor (HV off of PT times 1.2 equal B+). Solid state rectifiers are much stouter and usually have at least a 1.4 factor. 

Here is what the Tube Depot says:

This octal based solid state rectifier is a cost effective replacement for any of the following tubes:

5AR4 / GZ34
5Y3
5U4G / 5U4GB
5R4 / 5V4 / 5Z4

Not only is this an inexpensive alternative, but this solid state rectifier will firm up your low end. If you have too much sag in your low end, then this is the prescription for you.

Note: Please be advised that this replacement will increase overall B+ (plate voltage) by 10-20%. If your filter caps are older than 20-25 years, we suggest you replace them before installing this solid state rectifier.
*********************************************************

As I said, those early Marshalls must have had a lot of SAG when cranked above five or six.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just took a quick stroll on pricing the 5AR4/GZ34. The Tube Depot wants $200 for an NOS American or Euro brand. On EBAY, the Mullard's are starting at around $185. I think you got a pretty good deal on your tube. You bought two of them didn't you?
> 
> If you ever want to convert it over to a SS rectifier, they're $10.




I was going to get another one but they sold out the next time I checked. They only had 3 in stock.


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## MartyStrat54

They need to go over to the Filter Cap thread. 20 to 25 years on the caps? Not me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm refraining from trying out that Magnavox amp. I pulled it already and have the control panel wired up, but I'm afraid of the caps in this thing. 51 years is a long time. If I had a Variac I might try to bring it up to power.

I think I've found what I want to make out of it. Weber has an amp called the 5E3x2 which uses two 12AX7's and four 6V6's. I've got most everything I need. I might pick up a new OT instead of trying to use the two existing OT's. I'm trying to figure out if the 5U4GB will work. His design uses a WZ34 and doesn't use the choke, which I was hoping to work in. I was also thinking about using the third 12AX7 as a switchable gain stage. I shouldn't be putting too much of a strain on the PT since it was powering all these tubes to begin with.

I forgot to try out the Sonotone in my Marshall. I got hung up on Matsushitas and went and tried to resurrect my noisy D-getter tube by making the pins all shiny. It helped, but it's still a little noisy. It's a shame since it tested at 28-28.


----------



## tonefreak

[NOOB ALERT]

Alright. you all are gonna laugh at me, but oh well.

so in my DSL, the big tubes are the power tubes, and the little ones are the pre-amp tubes right? 

and the power tubes are some sort of EL-34's and the Pre amps tubes are some sort of 12ax7's correct?

I'm considering a re-tube sometime this summer and starting to get my ducks in a row.


----------



## solarburn

tonefreak said:


> [NOOB ALERT]
> 
> Alright. you all are gonna laugh at me, but oh well.
> 
> so in my DSL, the big tubes are the power tubes, and the little ones are the pre-amp tubes right?
> 
> and the power tubes are some sort of EL-34's and the Pre amps tubes are some sort of 12ax7's correct?
> 
> I'm considering a re-tube sometime this summer and starting to get my ducks in a row.



Yeppers! You're do'n good.


----------



## solarburn

tonefreak said:


> [NOOB ALERT]
> 
> Alright. you all are gonna laugh at me, but oh well.
> 
> so in my DSL, the big tubes are the power tubes, and the little ones are the pre-amp tubes right?
> 
> and the power tubes are some sort of EL-34's and the Pre amps tubes are some sort of 12ax7's correct?
> 
> I'm considering a re-tube sometime this summer and starting to get my ducks in a row.



Tell me what tube slot is V1 and why does it differ from the other 3 as far as appearance?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep you got it down. Rule Number 1 for tubes. You always want your best preamp tube in V1.

In the DSL the preamps are:

V1-Primary Gain Stages
V2-Secondary Gain Stages
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter

Most of us like to run a Euro tube in V1 (Mullard, Amperex, Mini Watt, Philips).

In V2 we go with a High Gain Raytheon Black Plate.

For V3 and V4 we use a variety of tubes and generally V4 is High Gain and so is V3.

If you want to go with current production tubes, I make the following recomendation.

V1-Tung-Sol Hand Select Low Noise
V2-Mullard RI Hand Select High Gain/Low Noise
V3-Regular EH
V4-High Gain EH


----------



## solarburn

Game over...hehe. Marty just knocked it out of the park for ya!LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm refraining from trying out that Magnavox amp. I pulled it already and have the control panel wired up, but I'm afraid of the caps in this thing. 51 years is a long time. If I had a Variac I might try to bring it up to power.
> 
> I think I've found what I want to make out of it. Weber has an amp called the 5E3x2 which uses two 12AX7's and four 6V6's. I've got most everything I need. I might pick up a new OT instead of trying to use the two existing OT's. I'm trying to figure out if the 5U4GB will work. His design uses a WZ34 and doesn't use the choke, which I was hoping to work in. I was also thinking about using the third 12AX7 as a switchable gain stage. I shouldn't be putting too much of a strain on the PT since it was powering all these tubes to begin with.



Wow Alan, that's cool that you found a similar amp. If you could nab a schematic, you'd be set. If you ran dual OPT's it would be like an old Marshall. As far as the rectifier, yeah that 5U4 would work out fine. They both are doing the same thing...rectifying. And I will say that when I was modding the Bogen 35 and 50 watt PA amps into guitar amps, I usually changed out the caps. These were late 50's, early 60's amps. Hell I still kept the best one. It is so old it has an EZ81 rectifier tube. Bogen switched over to solid state in the early 60's. This amp has a smoother sag to it versus the newer versions with SS rectification. 

I love your idea about the extra gain tube. Is this a P2P amp or does it have a PCB?

Yeah your PT would be fine. It's probably way under rated, especially on the heater tap. Preamp tubes draw very little heater current.


----------



## RiverRatt

Not only a schematic, but a layout diagram, too.

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5e3x2_schem.jpg

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/5e3x2_layout.jpg

It looks pretty easy. I'm going to use the alternate bias with the 50k pot and also the half-power switch. I may have to enlist some help for the extra gain stage. Thinking about a PPIMV mod, too.

I just got finished building a pedalboard, so that's one project done and done right. It's small, but I don't use many pedals. I've got a wah, tuner, OCD, Bad Monkey, EQ, and a Rocktron Tsunami chorus with an "ambience" option (basically a slapback delay or expander-type circuit). I'm going to have to sell my Deja Vibe and get a Deja Vibe II. That first version is huge. The DV2 is more the size of the OCD.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I wouldn't have thought that they would make this all available. Looks like it is cathode bias, but there is a schematic for how to convert to fixed bias. 

Nice little amp by Weber. What's it rated at? 40 watts?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I think 40 watts is right. That's why I wanted to do the PPIMV - this byotch is going to be loud. Of course, I still have the option of running it as a stereo setup and having two separate power sections with a common preamp tube, but that ruins my extra switchable gain stage. I still think the 5E3x2 is the way to go. Actually, the 5E3 schematic they have shows that 1/2 of V1 is the only gain stage for each channel. That means 3 potential gain stages for channel 2!

They have a Weber general purpose OT for around $35 that I think I may use. I'm not sure about wiring up two OT's. I guess I could run the primaries off of pin three for each tube pair and split the lead coming off the choke to the center tap on each OT, but I don't know exactly how to go about making that split. Obviously this design isn't like Marshall's outside-outside and inside-inside pair scheme with the power tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok guys. I am new to this so if it doesnt work let me know. I rolled some tubes tonight, 3 to be exact. An RFT, an EI and a Philips. Here is a clip of them. Which ones do you all like? And can ya name them? 
http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/207913_hptyb/tubesample.mp3


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Ok guys. I am new to this so if it doesnt work let me know. I rolled some tubes tonight, 3 to be exact. An RFT, an EI and a Philips. Here is a clip of them. Which ones do you all like? And can ya name them?
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/207913_hptyb/tubesample.mp3



EI/RFT/Philips

Any right?


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> EI/RFT/Philips
> 
> Any right?



Damn. Got them all right. Good job Joe!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Damn. Got them all right. Good job Joe!



Hahaha! What do I win?????!

Cool! I have 2 of those tubes but not the Philips. Course you knew that.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hrmm. I guess you win a congratulations. Ha

Yeah from that I think the EI won IMO. But I cant crank it up loud cause it is 5am. But When I do I will let you know. I remember you saying that the RFT really sings when it is pushed volume wise, so we can put that into consideration. Also I noticed that the EI was a lot louder than the rest of them, in the clip you cant tell very well plus and to defend my tone, it sounded one million times better when I was playing it rather than after the recording.


----------



## thetragichero

so far i'm running V1: matsushita V2: sylvania grey plate with CP tung-sol in V3/V4 and it sounds better than it has ever sounded!
but i have 1 raytheon black plate and 1 raytheon grey plate on the way so that CP junk will be out of there soon


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hrmm. I guess you win a congratulations. Ha
> 
> Yeah from that I think the EI won IMO. But I cant crank it up loud cause it is 5am. But When I do I will let you know. I remember you saying that the RFT really sings when it is pushed volume wise, so we can put that into consideration. Also I noticed that the EI was a lot louder than the rest of them, in the clip you cant tell very well plus and to defend my tone, it sounded one million times better when I was playing it rather than after the recording.



Yeah clips really don't capture whats going on in the room while you are play'n. Something is always getting lost in translation...especially feel. I have no complaints. I liked the demo. Thought it was great.

No I don't need to win anything. I just get to pat myself on the back and say "that'll do pig...that'll do" hehe. Hope some will get the movie quote.


----------



## solarburn

thetragichero said:


> so far i'm running V1: matsushita V2: sylvania grey plate with CP tung-sol in V3/V4 and it sounds better than it has ever sounded!
> but i have 1 raytheon black plate and 1 raytheon grey plate on the way so that CP junk will be out of there soon



Be sure to keep track of what you like best as you're moving them around. I find myself settling on 2 solid tubes for V3 and the PI and then usually just roll V1 and V2. I do notice differences in the PI and I will roll that one once in awhile but I feel the big tone contributers are V1 & V2 if you are using a DSL. If its a diff amp it may vary of course.

I'm using a D-getter Matsushita in V3(V1)and a Jan philips in the V4(PI)in my Night Train. With that amp the power tubes are V1 & V2. Makes it confusing when I talk about it so I usually translate it to V1 & V2 regarding the pre's instead. The Matsushitas sound good. I like the slant getter and the D-getter with these.

When you get your BP try it in V2 and leave the Matsushita in V1. See how that sounds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> EI/RFT/Philips
> 
> Any right?



I got the Ei, but I had the RFT and Philips reversed. (Hey I'm honest. I could of said I got them all right too.)

The RFT to me was thinner sounding, so I just thought it was a weaker Philips.

I thought the first and third tubes had the better sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahaha! What do I win?????!



You win three personalized guitar picks and a wipe rag (slightly used).


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You win three personalized guitar picks and a wipe rag (slightly used).




Far out!!!!!!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got the Ei, but I had the RFT and Philips reversed. (Hey I'm honest. I could of said I got them all right too.)
> 
> The RFT to me was thinner sounding, so I just thought it was a weaker Philips.
> 
> I thought the first and third tubes had the better sound.



I heard that familiar mid meat I like in the RFT compared to the others. I recognized the EI too. I wasn't guessing except with the Philips and that was just a matter of what was left hehe. I don't have a Philips so nothing to pull from but a guess.

Of course saying that I recognized 2 of the tubes(which is honest)and having it turn out to be right is probably an "I got lucky" scenario.


----------



## thetragichero

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Be sure to keep track of what you like best as you're moving them around. I find myself settling on 2 solid tubes for V3 and the PI and then usually just roll V1 and V2. I do notice differences in the PI and I will roll that one once in awhile but I feel the big tone contributers are V1 & V2 if you are using a DSL. If its a diff amp it may vary of course.
> 
> I'm using a D-getter Matsushita in V3(V1)and a Jan philips in the V4(PI)in my Night Train. With that amp the power tubes are V1 & V2. Makes it confusing when I talk about it so I usually translate it to V1 & V2 regarding the pre's instead. The Matsushitas sound good. I like the slant getter and the D-getter with these.
> 
> When you get your BP try it in V2 and leave the Matsushita in V1. See how that sounds.


yeah i'm planning to try V1: matsushita V2: raytheon BP V3: raytheon V4: sylvania since that seems about what ya'll seem to like, which would be a good starting point


----------



## solarburn

thetragichero said:


> yeah i'm planning to try V1: matsushita V2: raytheon BP V3: raytheon V4: sylvania since that seems about what ya'll seem to like, which would be a good starting point



Thats a good line up I think.


----------



## MartyStrat54

With what you have, that's how I would run them.


----------



## BluesRocker

thetragichero said:


> yeah i'm planning to try V1: matsushita V2: raytheon BP V3: raytheon V4: sylvania since that seems about what ya'll seem to like, which would be a good starting point



That looks good to me.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well Marty... I was gonna buy some tubes this week. And then my car broke down. No justice I tell ya. No justice. Anyhoo...

I have been havin' fun w/ my rig lately though. The tubes you hooked me up w/ really are that super-delish icing on the cake. I re-did my rig, and now I've got my guitar running into my Digitech Hardwire Delay, and from there one output goes directly into the TSL ('cause that tone is killer and I want it to be the focus of my sound), and the other output is going into the RP1000 which is connected using the 4-wire method into the Bugera. Stereo rig! Yeah baby! So I keep the Bugera real wet w/ effects, and use it to suppliment my main Wilder Modded, Martimus Maximus Tone Packed, Marshall sound. This setup is absolutely *massive* sounding, and when I kick in that Hardwire delay... I have got multiple delays just kickin' arse. Oh, so tasty!


----------



## MM54

Sounds awesome


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Ok guys. I am new to this so if it doesnt work let me know. I rolled some tubes tonight, 3 to be exact. An RFT, an EI and a Philips. Here is a clip of them. Which ones do you all like? And can ya name them?
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/207913_hptyb/tubesample.mp3



That sounds killer man!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Sounds awesome



Awesome would be an understatement mate. I was not prepared for how huge this set up would sound. Two 100W amps in a stereo rig, w/ the Marshall the dominant tone... HOLE-LEE-CRAP! I am in heaven!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... And both amps, yes even the Bugera, are loaded with Marty's tone-packs... Oh, how sweet it is!


----------



## BluesRocker

joshuaaewallen said:


> That sounds killer man!



That was a pretty basic tone. Just the lp standard, a chord, the vm, and greenbacks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn Josh, that is a massive rig you have now. Good for you.

I'll be doing a review on my amps in 3 or 4 more days. It's not going to be anything windy, just the right words saying the right stuff.

Here's an excerpt. "Wow...just wow!"


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn Josh, that is a massive rig you have now. Good for you.
> 
> I'll be doing a review on my amps in 3 or 4 more days. It's not going to be anything windy, just the right words saying the right stuff.
> 
> Here's an excerpt. "Wow...just wow!"



"Oh yeah! Bow, bow, chick, chicka, chickaaaaaaaah..."

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr6-YabThxY"]YouTube - Secret Of My Success Oh Yeah Yello Limo Scene[/ame]


----------



## thetragichero

joshuaaewallen said:


> Digitech Hardwire Delay



how do you like it? i've got the hardwire tube overdrive (gain at 0) as my boost for leads, but it only sounds good in front of the amp (sounds too... hollow in the fx loop)
also sounds pretty awful in front of my old ss combo
they seem built like a tank


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thetragichero said:


> how do you like it? i've got the hardwire tube overdrive (gain at 0) as my boost for leads, but it only sounds good in front of the amp (sounds too... hollow in the fx loop)
> also sounds pretty awful in front of my old ss combo
> they seem built like a tank



It's been a very good delay pedal for me. Plus it really does bypass when not in use, so it also makes an excellent tool to split your guitar to two amps. But... IMO I think it can be a wee bit difficult to dial in just the right amount of delay. The looper function of it is pretty sweet. I dig that a lot. And the thing really is built like a tank.

In my experience, overdrive pedals seldom sound good in the effects loop. They are made to overdrive your preamp and give it that extra push. I don't know what model SS amp you are plugging it into, but I'm not surprised that it doesn't sound that great run through it. I've had a number of different SS amps (Marshall', Randall's, and various others, and they just don't seem to do justice to a good distortion/overdrive pedal (I have no idea about the Digitech, 'cause I've never plugged into one).

If you're not looking for added distortion when you boost for leads, but really only want a volume boost... You might be better off trying some of the various "clean boost" pedals that are on the market...

PedalsPlus Effects Warehouse - Guitar Effects Pedals, Pedal Boards, Boutique Amplifiers, Cables, and Guitar Accessories.


----------



## MM54

What do you think of this?

Vintage TUBE amp with 12 inch speaker look at pic's

Looks like 12AX7's in there. I'll call the guy tonight to see if he knows what tubes are in it. It's a local number so I might be able to take a look at it before I buy if I decide to.

Edit: Looked up the address for the number, it's the furthest away I've ever seen a number with that area code. Figures.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a Leslie cabinet. They are worth big bucks if they are working properly.

Some of the speakers twirl around and the speed is controlled by the organist.


----------



## MM54

Wow, nice. Thanks for the info - I'm going to head downstairs and give him a call then.


----------



## MM54

Alright, talked to him about it, he said that he has the cable to hook it up to the organ and that it was an external amplifier from an old bulky organ he's since taken apart.

Blah blah blah, he repeated himself a few dozen times. He has the cable to connect it.

Said he doesn't know what the tubes are in it, but he "don't think 'der them big'uns from like da old fender tubeamps" but said it has a speaker, might be a Jensen. He has that cable to connect it to an organ. He said it's labeled "Baldwin Panoramic" and has, at the top, three "big ol springs" that he supposes are from some sort of spring reverb. He said it works great and he still has the cable to connect it to the organ.

Then he repeated himself. Did I mention he has the cable to connect it up?

So anyways, I told him I'll call him back sometime tomorrow. The fact that it's baldwin makes me think it may have Raytheons in it, and other goodies.

Opinions?


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Alright, talked to him about it, he said that he has the cable to hook it up to the organ and that it was an external amplifier from an old bulky organ he's since taken apart.
> 
> Blah blah blah, he repeated himself a few dozen times. He has the cable to connect it.
> 
> Said he doesn't know what the tubes are in it, but he "don't think 'der them big'uns from like da old fender tubeamps" but said it has a speaker, might be a Jensen. He has that cable to connect it to an organ. He said it's labeled "Baldwin Panoramic" and has, at the top, three "big ol springs" that he supposes are from some sort of spring reverb. He said it works great and he still has the cable to connect it to the organ.
> 
> Then he repeated himself. Did I mention he has the cable to connect it up?
> 
> 
> 
> So anyways, I told him I'll call him back sometime tomorrow. The fact that it's baldwin makes me think it may have Raytheons in it, and other goodies.
> 
> Opinions?



Make sure the cables there if you buy it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that looks like a Hammond B-3 external Leslie cab, but you say it's a Baldwin?

Here is what hooks up to the other end of the cable. I bet there are some tubes in there. Just $90.00...wow!

BALDWIN PANORAMIC ORGAN


----------



## MM54

The other end of what cable? Oh the cable. I wonder if he has it?



Anyways, maybe that's what it is, and he was thinking about the organ he had taken apart. Anyways, I'd like to confirm with you guys that I could get some profit from it before I call him tomorrow and make definite plans to pick it up?

I've not been able to find much about it online in an hour of searching, so I'm questioning it. Yeah, it's got old tubes, but I don't know much about it. I'm kind of concerned after getting semi-burned on the last organ (and still trying to figure out what to do with 29 12FQ8s).


----------



## MM54

More research, no results. I'm starting to turn away from it, at least for now. There's a chance I may be down in that area sometime this week, maybe I could look at it then and see if he'd negotiate a bit lower price, since I can't find any info on the thing. I dunno, I'm tired as hell. Why am I still up again?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd like to get the organ for $90. Tube city.


----------



## MM54

Alright. Got off the phone, the guy repeated himself a few dozen more times (Did I mention, he has the cable to connect it to the organ?)

Anyways.

He says it's marked as 75W (I'm thinking that;s consumption, not output, read on for why). The speaker is a Jensen AlNiCo with a blue basket (?). 11 tubes, 8 12AX7s, a 5U4, and two 6BQ5's (aren't they EL84's?). I'm liking it. He's like two hours south of me, perhaps I'll try to make arrangements to head down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah the 6BQ5's are EL84's. They are probably Sylvania's. Could be RCA's. Well if you can get it cheap enough. That's going to be a 4 hour drive for basically 10 tubes that are desirable. I'm curious why the amp has 8, 12AX7's and only 2, EL84's? Must have something to do with that cable.


----------



## MM54

The speaker seems valuable too, based on some googling. I'm calling him back mid-week to negotiate the price (he wanted to see if he got any more interested people before lowering the price). What do you thiink would be good? I may try for 75?

Also marty, your last post in the boob thread isn't showing up


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's a big cab and I don't know what (Jensen) speaker is in there. It may be a 25 watt speaker and that would limit its use. Also you don't know if the cone is ate up or damaged. Moths will actually eat on a cone that is dried out.

As far as the Boob thread. A lot of those picture are on weird servers and I am at their mercy.


----------



## thetragichero

i can't thank you dudes enough.... this NOS preamp setup is KILLER
i never expected to get such a rich sound from this amp (judging from how it sounded with CP tube)


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome to the addiction! What did you end up running?


----------



## MartyStrat54

@@@thetragichero:

What's the year and origin of your Strat? What pickups do you run?

Let's hear some more about the tubes.


----------



## thetragichero

it's not really a strat.... warmoth 1-piece swamp ash body, birdseye maple neck with rosewood fretboard
pickups are fender '62 reissue tex mex bridge (soon to be replaced by a 7.5k benson alnico v because this one lacks BALLS)/benson 6.9k/alnico 3 neck pickup from fender american deluxe strat (i think a 2009?)
secondary axe is a squier affinity series strat i gutted and put in a dragonfire distortion (think sd distortion pickup but 1/4 of the price)/weak p90 (will be replaced as soon as i find something i like)/fender alnico v highway-one strat neck
(also have a '65 guild hollowbody that i can only play on low gain in the same room or it feedsback like crazy)

tubes: V1: matsushita V2: raytheon BP V3: raytheon grey plate PI: sylvania grey plate
(CP svetlana's for power tubes.... should be replaced with NOS at some point ;-))


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds like a good setup. I'd play around with the V4 tube - especially if you have a high gain tube that sounds good in V1 or V2. It can make a very noticeable difference.

How do you like that Dragonfire pickup? I've been thinking about trying those in my cheapo guitar.


----------



## thetragichero

for the price i don't think they can be beat (i got the 4-wire bridge and 2-wire neck (unused) for like 30$ on ebay)
on that guitar, the volume pot is push-pull and when it's up it's the top coil of the bridge humbucker on all the time and it makes everything LOUDER than i though a tapped coil + another single coil could

to sum up my opinions of the pickup: it's loud and high gain, and i've never even attempted to use it clean (maybe someday, but i'm still trying to play fast/loud punk like i was 16 again )


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice guitar and cool tube lineup. I don't run across that many Raytheon Gray Plates. I've got some, but the Raytheon Black Plate is the big seller.

Just got a couple of different amps and I am surprised how well my Strat sounds through them. Tonally different than my TSL100. I actually hear definition between the neck, middle and bridge pickups. The neck pickup actually has balls now. Sad to say, some people change out pickups when all along it's the amp. I mean I have changed pickups in some of my other guitars and the improvement was a plus. I mean "Duncan Designed" pickups is just another way of saying, "Made In China."


----------



## thetragichero

on my main guitar, i would've cut out the bridge pickup a long time ago
i always thought the whole tube amp thing was just a preference until i heard my guitar on my marshall... SS amps just didn't do it justice
i upgrade my opinion of it from 'garbage' to 'usable'
i'm just on this GAS trip where it has to be the best all of the time
ya'll know what i mean 
xoxo


--chris


----------



## MartyStrat54

I left WKC a comment or two on the "Instead Of Rolling Tubes" thread. The guy is a buffoon.

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/16145-instead-rolling-pre-amp-tubes-get-overdrive-pedal.html


----------



## BluesRocker

I tried Marty.  Apparently their ears are broken.


----------



## MM54

Some people don't know how to admit that their opinion isn't fact.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well if the amp that you are using isnt giving you the tone you want, and changing tubes doesnt help, get a new amp. Dont get an OD pedal, cause then you are taking away the actual TUBE tone of a TUBE AMP. Why put solid state infront of a tube amp for your main sound? It's F'in stupid.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I wouldn't let it bother me. Some people who don't have the time or money to obtain and try NOS tubes are usually the one's that make negative statements against it. Some people can become so negative that they begin to hear only what they want to hear. "I can't hear any difference?" "It's just a waste of money!" 

Whatever. It's like I said, "Do we apply this line of thinking to pickups and speakers?" String brand and gauge? Brand and size of guitar cable? Anyone can claim that they don't hear any changes, but I would have to differ with them. There is always going to be some sort of change. 

And it all boils down to this. Does a small change make you happy? Are you willing to spend money on a small change? Because this applies to all the above. Some changes are going to be bigger than others, but for the most part, if you are a tone seeker (as most guitarists are), you "enjoy" rolling tubes. 

I found out a lot here on the forum exchanging info with Ratt, Josh and Solar. You can have a good tube line up and all of a sudden you get a couple of dandies and the line up changes. Who the hell is to say we don't have a right to do this? Answer that if you will.


----------



## BluesRocker

No body in their right fucking mind is gonna tell me I cant do it, and if MY tone changes or not. It does to MY ears and thats all that matters. Just like the big argument on PIO vs Ceramic drop capacitors. There is a tone change but like Marty said, are you willing to spend the extra money on a chance to get a small change or will you sit and pout over the damn dilemma for 6 years because you spent 600 bucks on OD pedals and still couldnt get THAT sound. All in all I am happy with all of my purchases from Marty, and all of the other Tube venders and guitar parts places that have EFFECTED MY tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Well if the amp that you are using isnt giving you the tone you want, and changing tubes doesnt help, get a new amp. Dont get an OD pedal, cause then you are taking away the actual TUBE tone of a TUBE AMP. Why put solid state infront of a tube amp for your main sound? It's F'in stupid.



Yeah like what I was saying in post #5390 and on another thread. There may come a time when your amp isn't delivering for you and you need to change amps. Some people reject this and try to make their amp work. They then could spend hundreds on OD's and distortion pedals. I'm with you, if a good set of tubes doesn't do the trick, then it's time to analyze what sort of new amp is necessary.

I don't want to harp on the amps I got, but they don't need anything in front of them. Will I try other shit hooked up with these amps? Yes, but for now I am enjoying the tubes I put in these amps and the sound that is coming out.


----------



## BluesRocker

Honestly, that is what it all boils down to is how the player feels about his (or her) sound. But I dont like people telling me that nothing has changed when it is clearly visible and proof is there, and you refuse to accept it. That is just plum ignorant. Because then You are calling me a lier and I really dont like that.


----------



## dolphinstreet

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I'm looking to retube my JVM410H completely. What do you recommend? Everyone tells my Marty is the guy to ask. I play bluesier stuff, not high gain or shred. The more I can make my JVM sound like Jimi's tone on Band of Gypsies, the better.


----------



## BluesRocker

Sorry you walked into this Dolphin. We just so happened to be in a big rant. But yes you are in the right place. Marty will be with you shortly. in the mean time you can stroll through the thread and see what you can find. Lots of good info in here.


----------



## MM54

Remember that Zenith from a few pages back? Well I've done some research.

The codes on it read
3223
6142

I've taken advantage of the Internet and am thinking that the tube was manufactured by Tung-Sol (Their EIA # is 322) in factory #3, in the 42nd week of 1961. Is this logical?

It also would confirm the suspicion that the super-dark "12AX7" stamp was indeed tung-sol.


----------



## pittbull

I need some opinions,new production pre amp tubes for the van halen 1 sound(first album sound)which tubes to try,im using the jjecc83s tubes in my VHT Deliverance d60h head in all 4 gain stages,looking for more grit if you know what i mean...


----------



## MartyStrat54

dolphinstreet said:


> Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I'm looking to retube my JVM410H completely. What do you recommend? Everyone tells my Marty is the guy to ask. I play bluesier stuff, not high gain or shred. The more I can make my JVM sound like Jimi's tone on Band of Gypsies, the better.



Hello, I read your other post/thread. Are you wanting to go with old stock tubes or current production tubes? You don't have a lot to choose from with the CP tubes. I'll send you a PM.


----------



## pittbull

New Production tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

pittbull said:


> New Production tubes.



You probably want to focus on V1 and V2. Running all JJ's is something very few people do. Keep the JJ's in V3 and V4 and then you will have a spare set. I would go with a Tung-Sol in V1, but for your style, get a low noise/high gain tube. Then a Mullard RI Hand Select low noise/high gain for V2. This should make a difference in your punch and harmonics.

I think the Tube Depot charges $4 a tube for the Hand Select options.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I left WKC a comment or two on the "Instead Of Rolling Tubes" thread. The guy is a buffoon.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/16145-instead-rolling-pre-amp-tubes-get-overdrive-pedal.html



Thanks for pointing to that thread, Marty. I don't know what it is about WKC that pushes my buttons, but he seems to be here solely to put down any idea that isn't his own. What he doesn't realize is that any idiot can record an amp and lose it in the mix of some backing track and then claim that the tubes used didn't make a difference in the tone. If he can tell the difference between a tele and a les paul on one of his over-produced sound clips I'd be surprised, much less whether or not it was recorded with a vintage Marshall with old tubes or a Line 6 PODxt straight into the board. The fact that not only can we hear the difference between NOS and CP tubes, but that we independently came up with the same combinations of NOS tubes that sound incredible in a Marshall is a pretty convincing testimonial to me.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Remember that Zenith from a few pages back? Well I've done some research.
> 
> The codes on it read
> 3223
> 6142
> 
> I've taken advantage of the Internet and am thinking that the tube was manufactured by Tung-Sol (Their EIA # is 322) in factory #3, in the 42nd week of 1961. Is this logical?
> 
> It also would confirm the suspicion that the super-dark "12AX7" stamp was indeed tung-sol.



I don't know about the other numbers, but yes, I think that stamp is a Tung-Sol stamp. The 322 EIA code pretty much confirms that. Now if someone could explain why my Sonotone has the same stamp.....


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Well if the amp that you are using isnt giving you the tone you want, and changing tubes doesnt help, get a new amp. Dont get an OD pedal, cause then you are taking away the actual TUBE tone of a TUBE AMP. Why put solid state infront of a tube amp for your main sound? It's F'in stupid.



BR, I have to disagree with you on this. Hendrix was one of the pioneers of the Marshall tone and he had a pretty big arsenal of pedals that he used liberally. Pedal are a tool. There are some that sound awful to me, but other player use them with excellent results. A good OD pedal can enhance your amp's natural tone without masking it. Look at Billy Gibbons. He chains Expandoras together in ridiculous numbers, yet most anybody would kill for his tone.


----------



## MM54

Perhaps it's relabeled?

I dunno, I still think I've seen that stamp on other tubes, I just can't find them


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'm caught up now


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I wasn't trying to rally the troops to go over there and raise hell, but like you, I am sick of his attitude. Hell, he's contradicted himself many times and then will argue with you over that. He makes all these random statements (like 600 Euro's for NOS tubes) that are just frickin" crazy. 

I've put up with his shit for long enough now. No more playing nice with him.

It's obvious that he hasn't ever used real old stock tubes, so he once again is blowing it out of his ass.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've put up with his shit for long enough now. No more playing nice with him.



+1

(Don't kill me )


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> BR, I have to disagree with you on this. Hendrix was one of the pioneers of the Marshall tone and he had a pretty big arsenal of pedals that he used liberally. Pedal are a tool. There are some that sound awful to me, but other player use them with excellent results. A good OD pedal can enhance your amp's natural tone without masking it. Look at Billy Gibbons. He chains Expandoras together in ridiculous numbers, yet most anybody would kill for his tone.



I wasnt saying that OD pedals are the devil. NOOO! I use them. Hell I think i have more OD pedals than any. But You have to knwo how to use the pedal. Like I crank the level on mine to drive the V1 tube off into a black hole somewhere, and set the drive low maybe 3 o'clock. But I apologize for coming off that OD pedals are not good.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem, man. I wasn't trying to be confrontational about it. The first effects pedal I ever used was an old Dallas Arbiter fuzz that I'd give anything to still have. Like you say, if you know how to make them hit the front end of an amp the right way it can be great.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well one guy had stated, "I don't like tube powered distortion devices in front of my tube preamp." I told him with mine, I have a Telefunken in it, so it in essence becomes my V1. Telefunken>Telefunken>Raytheon BP. That was on the TSL100. I haven't tried my Silver Dragon on the 2203 or 2204. Not yet anyways.


----------



## BluesRocker

Oh man. Id love to have one of the original DA FF. I almost got one, but the guy looked it up on ebay and saw how much they were going for then told me 1200 USD. I damn near got it and 7 boutique pedals for the old Marshall 2*12 cab I had.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well one guy had stated, "I don't like tube powered distortion devices in front of my tube preamp." I told him with mine, I have a Telefunken in it, so it in essence becomes my V1. Telefunken>Telefunken>Raytheon BP. That was on the TSL100. I haven't tried my Silver Dragon on the 2203 or 2204. Not yet anyways.



Marty, I would say in front of either one of those, that would be one righteous combination.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the nice thing about the Silver Dragon is that it is a SS and tube distortion device. You can send the SS distortion to the amp, or the tube distortion, or a mix of both. Pretty frickin' flexible. This device is large and needs a separate power supply. It does not run on 9V. It runs on 13V and I believe this tube has the heaters wired in series for 12.6/13V operation.


----------



## BluesRocker

NICE! I have been wanting to grab a Butler Tube Driver for a while. But I will prolly just be farting at it and never get it. Guess you can say I am constipated. Ha


----------



## TwinACStacks

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I wasn't trying to rally the troops to go over there and raise hell, but like you, I am sick of his attitude. Hell, he's contradicted himself many times and then will argue with you over that. He makes all these random statements (like 600 Euro's for NOS tubes) that are just frickin" crazy.
> 
> I've put up with his shit for long enough now. No more playing nice with him.
> 
> It's obvious that he hasn't ever used real old stock tubes, so he once again is blowing it out of his ass.



According to WKC, Parker Flys are gifts from God. What does THAT tell you?

GIGO....

 TWIN


----------



## solarburn

Well I've got to telly you guys that my EC1000 with 81/60's in it kill going into my Vox "Classic Rock" Amplug. Its fun "crab" walking around the living room with everyone giving me that WTF look while I plexi out on my earbuds with crunch-heizen fark'n riffage...

I can tell the difference between toobs whether they are NOS or CP. Ask BluesRocker he knows my uncanny ability to "mind meld" with the "crystal lattice".

I can even hear when power tubes redplate...I don't have to see them to know...

Ok I'm just F'n around. I am dirty ole' Joe though...that's for realz!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of that, Lisa must be touring. Geez, they come and go don't they? I guess it really is a man's forum.

Still, I'd like to hear from her.


----------



## RickyLee

OK fellas. What is the consensus on using the 12BZ7 for more gain? I know I have some of these packed away. It was quite a few years ago when I was tinkering with these types and others, but do not remember much of what the verdict was? I must not have been that impressed with them, or maybe I did not try them in the right amp or tube slot?





And being they have less plate resistance, could the amps's gain stage components be tweaked to give the same effect using a 12AX7 - cathode, grid & plate resistor values ect.?


----------



## RiverRatt

I liked 'em on the red channel - they weren't as over-the-top as I was expecting. The tone was pretty hot. Good for AFD Slash type stuff. Only problem is, there is no clean with a BZ7. Plus, modern Marshalls tend to eat them for lunch. Marty went through a handful before they figured that out.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I liked 'em on the red channel - they weren't as over-the-top as I was expecting. The tone was pretty hot. Good for AFD Slash type stuff. Only problem is, there is no clean with a BZ7. Plus, modern Marshalls tend to eat them for lunch. Marty went through a handful before they figured that out.



Hey Alan I'll be sending the your JRP back real soon. Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgot hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tube stealer. Send that lil baby back home.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Wow, you guys have been busy over here! I haven't really had much to say because I haven't been doin' much tube rolling for a while... Been readin' all yer posts though. Anything new w/ you guys (other than wkcchampion being his usual charming self)?

I'm still diggin' my sound with the Wilder Mods & the Martimus tubes, but ya know after a while I know I'll get bored and develop another bad case of GAS that Beano just won't cure, and I'll be right back here sniffing out some more tubes. But in the meantime... I've finally got my "shrine" all set up and have been just totally rockin' out.







​


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Alan I'll be sending the your JRP back real soon. Just wanted to let you know I haven't forgot hehe.



That's your tube. Shipping on the OCD, remember?

How do you like it? I didn't like them at first, but that 35-36 has grown on me. I moved my 28-29 Raytheon black plate to V4 and put the Ray JRP in V2 with a hot Matsushita in V1. Very aggressive tone - nice and punchy and defined, and it cleans up pretty well, too. I'd lots rather use the JRP as a high-gainer than a 12BZ7.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's your tube. Shipping on the OCD, remember?
> 
> How do you like it? I didn't like them at first, but that 35-36 has grown on me. I moved my 28-29 Raytheon black plate to V4 and put the Ray JRP in V2 with a hot Matsushita in V1. Very aggressive tone - nice and punchy and defined, and it cleans up pretty well, too. I'd lots rather use the JRP as a high-gainer than a 12BZ7.



Oh shiznit! What about the other 2 then? Yeah I like it and will use it for sure. Thanx man! I was thinking the other 2 were the trade off...were you wanting those back?


----------



## MartyStrat54

And that's the beauty of a max high gain 12AX7. It will give you as much gain as a BZ7 and sound better doing it.

Please note that some circuit designs crop the gain of the tube, so a high gain can be trimmed off. However, most gain stages will take what you are putting in and if it is a max high gain you will know.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> And that's the beauty of a max high gain 12AX7. It will give you as much gain as a BZ7 and sound better doing it.
> 
> Please note that some circuit designs crop the gain of the tube, so a high gain can be trimmed off. However, most gain stages will take what you are putting in and if it is a max high gain you will know.


How does my beloved TSL fit into this subject gain-wise?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the nice thing about the Silver Dragon is that it is a SS and tube distortion device. You can send the SS distortion to the amp, or the tube distortion, or a mix of both. Pretty frickin' flexible. This device is large and needs a separate power supply. It does not run on 9V. It runs on 13V and I believe this tube has the heaters wired in series for 12.6/13V operation.



Hey Marty, you know what kind of stuff I like to play... What do you think of the Silver Dragon tone-wise when it comes to my rig? Just curious.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh shiznit! What about the other 2 then? Yeah I like it and will use it for sure. Thanx man! I was thinking the other 2 were the trade off...were you wanting those back?



Nope. Not only do you get the fabulous Raytheon JRP, but you can keep the Svetlana 12AX7 and the RCA 12AU7A cleartop as our gift to you. 

Speaking of the OCD, check out what I did with it:





















It cost me about $25 at Lowe's to build. The board is 3/8" poplar, with a 1/2" strip under the front an a 1/4" strip under the back. I drilled a grid of holes large enough to get a 1/4" plug through. I found a rubber-backed floor mat and glued that to the top to hold the velcro. I've still got to get some better cables but it was a cheap spur of the moment project and I was pretty well pleased with the way it tuned out.


----------



## MM54

Hey guys.

I finally ordered some boxes, so I can finally get around to selling a good sized handful of tubes. My question is: Is it a good idea to just put them up on e-bay with a decent reserve (or is a starting bid better?)?

Never sold online, only bought


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. Not only do you get the fabulous Raytheon JRP, but you can keep the Svetlana 12AX7 and the RCA 12AU7A cleartop as our gift to you.
> 
> Speaking of the OCD, check out what I did with it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It cost me about $25 at Lowe's to build. The board is 3/8" popar, with a 1/2" strip under the front an a 1/4" strip under the back. I drilled a grid of holes large enough to get a 1/4" plug through. I found a rubber-backed floor mat and glued that to the top to hold the velcro. I've still got to get some better cables but it was a cheap spur of the moment project and I was pretty well pleased with the way it tuned out.



Very nicely done mate! You do custom jobs on the side?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. Not only do you get the fabulous Raytheon JRP, but you can keep the Svetlana 12AX7 and the RCA 12AU7A cleartop as our gift to you.
> 
> Speaking of the OCD, check out what I did with it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It cost me about $25 at Lowe's to build. The board is 3/8" popar, with a 1/2" strip under the front an a 1/4" strip under the back. I drilled a grid of holes large enough to get a 1/4" plug through. I found a rubber-backed floor mat and glued that to the top to hold the velcro. I've still got to get some better cables but it was a cheap spur of the moment project and I was pretty well pleased with the way it tuned out.



Thats a fully funtional home made pedal board! Outstanding man. Looks great. I have a couple fish & chips too. Used mine for loop solo boosts when i was play'n out. Worked great! What did you settle on...the Deja Vibe or the Rocktron?

Tanx for the extras Alan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> How does my beloved TSL fit into this subject gain-wise?



Well you should know Mr. BZ7. The bottom line is like the 35-35 that I sent you. You know, the original ICBM. If I remember right, it was a JRP. You tried that tube and it was too much for your amp. So this means that V1 and V2 of the TSL will take anything thrown at it. The rule to remember is that too much can be too much.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Marty, you know what kind of stuff I like to play... What do you think of the Silver Dragon tone-wise when it comes to my rig? Just curious.



Well on the TSL I had it hooked up to the front. That way I could actually have four channels. Clean, Silver Dragon distortion, Crunch and Lead. So it works good in that way. 

Since you have the RP1000, I would say that you can probably come close to the Silver Dragon, but it is unique in that it is a combo SS/Tube distortion pedal.

I would say to try and learn the RP first before thinking about other pedals. I do want to say that I used to run a set up with my RP12 and then another set up with a pedal board. I still have a lot of Boss pedals and of course the RP12 is still with me.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Very nicely done mate! You do custom jobs on the side?



Thanks! That's the first pedalboard I ever built. I've still got to get some cables made up that'll fit better. I used a rubber backed door mat on the top. Velcro sticks to it just enough that the pedals don't fall off, but you don't rip the back off your pedal pulliing them loose. I used a couple of spade drills to make a grid of holes through the wood, glued the carpet down, then took a capet knife and cut slots over the holes for electrical and patch cables to go through. There's a lot I'll do diffrently next time, but it serves it pupose pretty well.

Joe, I just picked up that Rocktron Tsunami a souple of weeks ago for $20. So far I like it, not as much as my Deja Vibe, but there's just not enough room on the board for the Deja. I gues I'll just throw it in my cable bag and take it along.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice rig Alan. Yeah that Deja Vibe is a golden oldie. How do they compare with the original?


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I liked 'em on the red channel - they weren't as over-the-top as I was expecting. The tone was pretty hot. Good for AFD Slash type stuff. Only problem is, there is no clean with a BZ7. Plus, modern Marshalls tend to eat them for lunch. Marty went through a handful before they figured that out.





So you guys have only tried the 12BZ7 in the DSL and TSL?

What was the best tube position for it? And did it make a difference in the driver/phase splitter?


----------



## goeh

hi,

I'm would like to ask about RCA 12BZ7 BP K*, coz I just get from ebay. I want try this preamp tube on my 2204 clone. What do you think about this tube? 

herewith the ebay link for the item NOS RCA 12BZ7 Tube Black plate K* - eBay (item 150453383579 end time Jul-06-10 10:15:27 PDT)

thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> So you guys have only tried the 12BZ7 in the DSL and TSL?
> 
> What was the best tube position for it? And did it make a difference in the driver/phase splitter?



I ended up using mine in V2 on the DSL. It still dirtied up the clean channel. I did try it as a PI and it was pretty nasty sounding. 

Ricky, you might want to give tubedepot.com a try. They sell various NOS 12BZ7's for $8.95 each. I ordered two and asked if they could pick out a couple of RCA's and that's what they sent. You'd probably be better off getting a NOS tube from someone like them than taking your chances on eBay. If I can find the two I have here somewhere, I'd be glad to send you one. PM me if you're interested and I'll see if I can dig one up.

Goeh, I don't know if RCA black plates make much of a difference with BZ7's. I have a GE and an RCA black plate and I think the GE sounds a little better, but it's really hard to tell with that much gain.


----------



## goeh

RiverRatt said:


> Goeh, I don't know if RCA black plates make much of a difference with BZ7's. I have a GE and an RCA black plate and I think the GE sounds a little better, but it's really hard to tell with that much gain.



hhmm.. thx for the info, I will wait the tube arrive at my home, coz the shipping time usualy take about 1 - 3 weeks to my country, and I'll try them.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice rig Alan. Yeah that Deja Vibe is a golden oldie. How do they compare with the original?



Like I have ever used a real one 

It sounds good. It's not as over-the-top as the Dunlop RI, but it has a pretty wide range. There's a trim pot inside to control the intensity of the phasing. I need to tweak it a little. There's a guy that Mike Fuller recommends on his website to do mods and tweaks to his older pedals. I may send it to him. I've thought about replacing it with the Deja II or Mini, but this one is signed and numbered. I usually use it more for a light chorusing effect, but I picked up that Tsunami a couple of weeks ago for $20 and it sounds pretty good AND it fits on the board.

Another reason I don't have the Deja Vibe on the board is that it takes a weird 13v adapter.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> So you guys have only tried the 12BZ7 in the DSL and TSL?



Well, after I thought about it some more, I remember trying a BZ7 in my little Blackheart 5 watt head once. It didn't seem to make much difference until you cranked it up pretty loud.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The BZ7 is best used in the second gain stage. I do not recommend it at all as a V1. They are prone to being microphonic in V1. The electrical specifications of the BZ7 do not mesh well with the PI circuit. That's why it sounds like crap in the PI. I would not use a BZ7 in anything but the secondary gain stage.

PLEASE NOTE: A BZ7 is not a miracle tube. If it was, you could bet that we would all be using one. We have tried them and we have moved on. The bottom line is that a BZ7 is like a high gain 12AT7. It is not a very musical sounding tube. I think you are better off investing in a good pedal then trying a BZ7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is what I think is the closest thing to the Univox.






KR Musical Products - Products-Megavibe

$285.00


----------



## RiverRatt

The Fulltone version 1 that I have claims to be an exact copy of the original Unichord Univibe. I like to kick it in for leads or drive my wife crazy playing that B-F-G-E Gilmour lick from "Shine On Pt. II" over and over and over and over.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Back in my early days when I was still rockin' with the Peavey amps, I was also a Morley man. I even wore their "Morley Man" T-Shirts. All of their pedals ran on wall voltage. I had two of them and at the time they were very expensive. I had a EVO-1 Volume/Echo pedal that was almost $300 in 1978. This was through a discount music supply. I also had their Pro-Flanger. Those two pedals together gave an incredible phase/flange/echo sound that I have never been able to duplicate. It actually became my signature sound. After I wore them out, I went with something more compact.

Do you remember these? Did you ever use any of Morley's product?

PRO FLANGER or "PFL"






Link to EVO-1

http://www.morleypedals.com/evo1.pdf

I'll always remember these pedals and how well they worked together.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I remember the design and those shirts. I had a Morley wah back when I was a kid and didn't know what I had. The local music store used to be a treasure trove of old Gibsons and Fenders and amps. Every now and again they would get an odd pedal like that and I would snap it up if I could come up with the cash. I got an Ibanez (?) flanger from them once that would get so intense that the pitch would actually rise and fall with the sweep.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I think a lot of the shit available now is sterile sounding. Some of it sounds just like a competitors unit. Their is something magical about that old analog echo and flange.

The PFL had a regular mode and an auto mode. If you put it on auto and adjusted the three controls and then fed that into the EVO with the right echo rate...BOOM...Univibe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...1


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## MartyStrat54

7 frickin' thousand!

Yeah I peeled another 1,000 posts and have made it to 7,000. I feel pretty good now that the clown is gone.


----------



## solarburn

slurp....


Belch!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe...you say the nicest things.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll tip a Red Stripe in your direction. Our little town finally got civilized - Walmart now sells beer! Finally another store with a choice other than Bud products, Miller products, and Milwaukee's Best. Actually, there's a tobacco store just across from my office that sells several German and European beers. Their Mexican selection sucks, though. I think all they have is Corona and Dos Equis lager. I love Negra Modelo but there's not a store around that sells it. My favorite is the store where the night clerks sell Newcastle 16.9oz. bottles for $1.29. New Belguim seems to be putting out some good craft beers, too. I like their 1554 Enlightened Ale but I can do without all the orange peel and coriander flavored stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I think I asked you this before. How big is the town you live in?

I'm glad to hear that Walmart is now selling beer in your town. This will obviously cause a price change around town at the other liquor outlets.

They call this the power of Walmart.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I don't exactly live in town. The town where I work is probably between 5,000 and 6,000 people.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh that's right. You live in the hills and make 'shine. 

Actually, I watched that series with Billy Ray Cyrus and the people of the Appalachian Mountains. Showed how they built the railroad through the mountains. How they made moonshine and then how the younger generation grew pot. Most of the states in that region list pot as the number one cash crop.

So what do you do at your "place?"


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, we're a little over 200 miles away from the nearest mountains so I wouldn't know what the folks up that way do to get their kicks. I went to an interesting 4th of July cookout, though. Long story short, the host had a jar of moonshine that he made with some sort of pressure cooker apparatus. It was the real deal. Went down like water and was around 120 proof. My cousin and her husband were there from Illinois, and he brought down some of his last batch of India Ale so we had a pretty good time. Shrimp broulette, gumbo, crawfish etouffe, red beans and rice, barbecue, all kindsa good stuff. Fireworks on the lake. No herbs were grown or smoked AFAIK. Marijuana may have been the #1 cash crop 10 or 20 years ago, but the meth crowd has taken over now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ain't that a shame. Big difference too. Meth heads are really sick people. It's worse than heroin. The pot crowd was always into doing funny things or telling good stories. At least that's how I was and I got invited to a lot of parties.

Man I hope they ain't cooking meth in them mountains, but they probably are.

All that food you described made me get hungry instantly. I knew you were more Cajun then Mountain folk. That moonshine sounded smooth. Some of them make it really tasty. I saw a picture where the mash vat had an old 12 volt car battery thrown in. What in the world??? Secret ingredient?


----------



## MM54

Sulfuric acid makes everything... erm... better?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ain't that a shame. Big difference too. Meth heads are really sick people. It's worse than heroin. The pot crowd was always into doing funny things or telling good stories. At least that's how I was and I got invited to a lot of parties.
> 
> Man I hope they ain't cooking meth in them mountains, but they probably are.
> 
> All that food you described made me get hungry instantly. I knew you were more Cajun then Mountain folk. That moonshine sounded smooth. Some of them make it really tasty. I saw a picture where the mash vat had an old 12 volt car battery thrown in. What in the world??? Secret ingredient?



I think I saw that same show. They analyzed some of that stuff in the lab and it was full of heavy metals. Talk about making you go blind. They used lead solder in a lot of those homemade distilleries, too. I've seen car radiators used as coils which also adds a lot of lead. I can't think of what would make anyone chuck a car battery into the mix unless they plan on selling it to someone they really don't like.

As far as the cajun thing goes, I grew up on the river. There's a little catfish restaurant around here that's located in an old garage. They have a big shrimp boil every weekend with corn and potatoes. You can't scratch your nuts for like 2 days after eating it (sorry to any ladies present).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think the battery is part of a titration process. Titration is when you take an acid and turn it into drinking water, or go further, into a base. Or the other way around. However, in the process of doing this with a car battery, you induce lead into the batch. And yes, there were a lot of lead in most of those stills. Most of those guys weren't plumbers, they used whatever solder was available and man can it be hard on the eyes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, I wanted to thank all the new guys that are dropping in. Good to have you here.

This thread is one of the main threads on the forum. If you do certain searches regarding tubes on Google or Dogpile, you will end up with links to this thread. I have actually done business with a guy in Taiwan and Germany, because of this thread. 

I do however miss the days when we were going hog wild testing tubes. We all reached similar picks on tubes several times, but then a new tube makes the round. Right now a great tube for sell is the Matshushita 12AX7. This is a made in Japan tube. The best one is the slant getter. It also come with a straight halo getter. I really do not care that much for the regular halo getter, but some people like them. Some of the regulars are running the slant top in V1. That says a lot, because we all know that V1 is the most important tube. V1 sets the sound stage for the basic flavor of the amp. Never use a questionable tube in V1, it could wreck your tone.

These tubes are going for about $12 each. If you are lucky, you can get two or three of them with one bid. I have some, so I haven't been buying them. I have however seen a lot of these tubes go for a bargain. So if you got the time to do a little research on EBAY, do it. For the price, these are "what's hot."


----------



## solarburn

I really like the slant Matsushitas too. Sound great in my DSL but also in my Night Train and Monza. Mullard like. The D-getter is my favorite form of Matsushita.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm running a really hot Matsushita round slant getter in V1 right now. I'd like to have it tested just to see how hot it is, but man, it sounds goooodddd.

I got "Ugly Betty" completely outfitted with her EMG's and she's turning out to be the perfect opposite of my LP. Those EMG's really do nice things with Lead 1, and I don't like Lead 1 that much. I've got an 89 humbucker/single wired as a straight humbucker and two SA single coils. Just to refresh your memory, here she is, the only guitar I ever named.


----------



## solarburn

Ugly Betty's hot!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Can a 55 year old man get naked with her?

I found a new sponsor on the forum, Amplified Parts. They like JJ's. Here is a link to their "tube shootout." They have some bland, repetitive comments.

Tech Corner


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can a 55 year old man get naked with her?
> 
> I found a new sponsor on the forum, Amplified Parts. They like JJ's. Here is a link to their "tube shootout." They have some bland, repetitive comments.
> 
> Tech Corner







> JJ Electronic
> T-12AX7-GOLD-JJ High Low This Slovakian tube is *full bodied and bright with lots of depth and color.**a lot of bite* and brightness. In overdrive, it keeps *its well-defined bite and brings out the highs.* It's like the 12AX7-S-JJ on steroids, keeping the definition and adding



Is the a wine taster's cub?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Question for ya...*

Hi guys.

Late 60's - early 70's RCA Console Radio/Record Player... What is the likelihood? Tubes? No tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah bad. RCA was the first major company to dump tubes. They were high on SS even before 1960. All the major tube amp makers made the switch by around 1967. Hell, my 69 Vette had a solid state "mono" AM/FM radio. If it's a 1967 organ, its probably not a tube model. Same with the console.

What manufacturers love to hear. "It's cheaper to make." Once they saw how much money they could save, they didn't care what the amp sounded like. That's what a sales broucher is for. "Dazzling new technology allows for an incredible sonic stimulation." I was the right age for all of this. I remember what SS sounded like. It was horrible. Those guys at MacIntosh were crying. They had to pay people to tell the customer that SS sounded better. The only thing everybody could agree on was that it was smaller. Nobody said it was better.

I believe your console is full of early SS junk.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Awesome! That's exactly what I needed to know before I spent all sorts of time & $$$ chasing after this thing. Thanks Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, if you ever want to know about an old console or record player, you can look it up in the schematics section of this website. This is one of my secret sites. ALAN-You may want to save this. 

Techpreservation-Home of Vintage Radio Information


----------



## dugger

okay I'm gonna try posting pic for first time...
I started this in the workshop...no markings on this tube?
Came out of 67 Bassman 7025 slot
??? I can post better pics if this works



damn what pixels should I make em'?
Oh! You can just click on it like a thumbnail...


----------



## MartyStrat54

It looks to be a Chinese tube from what I see.


----------



## solarburn

I second that.


----------



## dugger

Ah-So...well here are some better pics of it
If Chinese, probably not original like the RCA and Telefunken?
or would Fender do that in 1967?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in 1967, the only thing that would be stock would be the RCA's. Fender used a lot of RCA tubes. 90 percent of the 7025's were RCA. Telefunkens were never stock in a Fender amp. 

If some of those tubes are OE, then all I can say is, "Look how long they lasted."

The Chinese tube is definitely not OE and Fender would have no need to use them even if they were available in 1967. Fender used all USA brand tubes.


----------



## dugger

So definitely Chinese no name eh?
Thanks Marty ...you da man


----------



## MartyStrat54

DUGGER-How many tube slots are marked 7025? How many 7025/12AX7's in that amp?


----------



## dugger

The diagram inside amp shows...
(starting from furthest away from power tubes)

7025
7025
7025
12AT7

In this order (starting with these two mystery tubes)
unknown, unknown , RCA (7025), TF (12AT7)

BTW Marty ,the writing (name and number) on the RCA and TF is legible,


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey, I wanted to thank all the new guys that are dropping in. Good to have you here.



Thanks man. It took me about 4 hours of reading to get here (with a few jumps between pages, but not many). Good stuff here. 

I've got a blackburn mullard in V1 of my 2204 and the rest of the pre tubes and power tubes are 1991 Groove Tubes. The previous GT 12ax7 was pretty high gain and the mullard toned down the saturation which I wanted. When the power tubes go, any suggestions or cp or nos? Also, for a 2204 I'm wondering if I should get a blackplate Raytheon and experiment between that and the mullard in V1/V2. Or any additional suggestions? 

Great thread, btw.

EDIT: So I've been on here most of the day and was lately searching for 6550 power tube recommendations and came to find that groove tubes are not very popular here. The fact my 2204 is filled with them, except for the mullard blackburn in V1, is no work of my own. That is what the store that used to service my amp changed them out with in '91. I'm going to slowly replace all of them, probably power tubes next. Any recommendations for 6550 replacements in a 2204 would be appreciated, as well as a V2 tube (seems Marty and others really like the bp Raytheon or RCA slant top). I'm going to post in the power tubes thread as well. Since 6550s don't really like to break up easy like an EL34, I usually get my gain from the pre. And I do dig strong mids in my tone.


----------



## MM54

Woah, you're running 20 year old tubes or did I understand? Replacing them (probably not the Mullard unless it's dying out) should be a pretty high priority.

I have a blackburn mullard in V1 as well, I like it.


----------



## seeker of rock

MM54 said:


> Woah, you're running 20 year old tubes or did I understand? Replacing them (probably not the Mullard unless it's dying out) should be a pretty high priority.
> 
> I have a blackburn mullard in V1 as well, I like it.



Yeah, 20 years old but only about 100, maybe 150 hours on them in that time. Enough to occasionally record a song, jam a little, or just turn it on periodically so everything can warm up. The NOS mullard is by far the oldest of the tubes, though, in years.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I would get a Raytheon BP high gain. Always good to have one of those. If the Mullard is still stout, a BP behing it sounds really good.

A 2204 can really come alive with the right tube in V1. If the Mullard isn't quit there anymore, you will know. These amps are very sensitive to tube changes. I put a hotter than normal V1 in my 2204 with a BP and a high gain Electrohome in for the PI. It's just plain mean. I'm surprised how just a regular gain tube makes it somewhat tame. My 2203 is even more sensitive as it is still a 3 tube preamp (actually 2, because the PI is considered as part of the power section). My 2204 is modded and it has an extra 12AX7, but is only using one half of the tube. Still it has an extra gain stage. The 2203 has got a hot Mini Watt in for V1 and a high gain Telefunken for V2. The PI is a high gain Mullard.


----------



## dugger

MartyStrat54 said:


> DUGGER-How many tube slots are marked 7025? How many 7025/12AX7's in that amp?





dugger said:


> The diagram inside amp shows...
> (starting from furthest away from power tubes)
> 
> 7025
> 7025
> 7025
> 12AT7
> 
> In this order (starting with these two mystery tubes)
> unknown, unknown , RCA (7025), TF (12AT7)
> 
> BTW Marty ,the writing (name and number) on the RCA and TF is legible,



Marty, Kinda hoping after the pics you had news for me or something about my mystery tube? If not , no big deal. thx


----------



## solarburn

dugger said:


> Marty, Kinda hoping after the pics you had news for me or something about my mystery tube? If not , no big deal. thx



The tube in the pix is a Chinese 12AX7. He already said so. Are you referring to something else I don't see or wanting more info? Jus asking...


----------



## dugger

I don't see where he said 12AX7? He said looks Chinese. It came out of a 7025 slot. Marty asked the second question(first quote) after he said Chinese. I thought maybe he was on to something
Oh well it's no big deal.


----------



## solarburn

dugger said:


> I don't see where he said 12AX7? He said looks Chinese. It came out of a 7025 slot.
> Oh well it's no big deal.



He prolly assumed you knew he was talking 12AX7's. Its not original to the amp. That one has been replaced. What do you want to know about it? In the right amp Chinese tubes are fine. I know alot of guys use Chinese in their hi gain amps. 7025's are 12Ax7's by the way but are suppose to be quieter in function.

The NOS 7025's(RCA)I've had were quieter than the Chinese 7025 current production and in your amp that would be a plus. Do you like it, not like it or just wondering about it?


----------



## dugger

I figured it was not original, just wondered what it was and that maybe someone had replaced the old 7025 with a 7025. I do know they are the same except for lower noise or something. So they would even look excatly the same too, huh?
yeah I put a Ruby in a VS one time and it helped it alot
Thanks SB


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I would get a Raytheon BP high gain. Always good to have one of those. If the Mullard is still stout, a BP behing it sounds really good.
> 
> A 2204 can really come alive with the right tube in V1. If the Mullard isn't quit there anymore, you will know. These amps are very sensitive to tube changes. I put a hotter than normal V1 in my 2204 with a BP and a high gain Electrohome in for the PI. It's just plain mean. I'm surprised how just a regular gain tube makes it somewhat tame. My 2203 is even more sensitive as it is still a 3 tube preamp (actually 2, because the PI is considered as part of the power section). My 2204 is modded and it has an extra 12AX7, but is only using one half of the tube. Still it has an extra gain stage. The 2203 has got a hot Mini Watt in for V1 and a high gain Telefunken for V2. The PI is a high gain Mullard.



The Mullard is divine. I've only logged about 10 hours on it since I bought it. Raytheon bp is on my want list, then. Do they go by different labels like mullards? If so, is there a date/production codes similar to mullards and telefunkens, etc. to identify them?


----------



## solarburn

dugger said:


> I figured it was not original, just wondered what it was and that maybe someone had replaced the old 7025 with a 7025. I do know they are the same except for lower noise or something. So they would even look excatly the same too, huh?
> yeah I put a Ruby in a VS one time and it helped it alot
> Thanks SB








Penta, Ruby tubes and Groove tubes are rebranded Chinese tubes which are made by Shuguang.


----------



## solarburn

dugger said:


> I figured it was not original, just wondered what it was and that maybe someone had replaced the old 7025 with a 7025. I do know they are the same except for lower noise or something. So they would even look excatly the same too, huh?
> yeah I put a Ruby in a VS one time and it helped it alot
> Thanks SB



Check this out Dugger. This is the first time I've looked at these offered at the Tube Store.

Preferred Series 7025

This high quality 7025 is very rugged. The plates are manufactured out of a premium metal imported from Germany and supported with extra thick mica spacers to insure against microphonics. They are burned in and tested at the factory and then again on our digital high voltage equipment to make sure the tubes selected for you will provide outstanding tone and performance. 

"A great sounding 12AX7 tube type that reminds me a little more of the ECC83 that EI made in the old days. That's a pretty nice compliment. I compared this tube against an old EI and Telefunken smooth plate and there was very little difference. Lots of gain with a rather low noise floor. No microphonics issues at all. Very good considering the large plate size. Spot welding may be better for microphonics than crimped plates. I tried it in all the standard guitar amp duties and it was fine. Fabulous in Blackface Fender amps. We tried this 7025 in a 66 Vibrolux reverb 2x10 combo and the tones were all there. Light and shimmering or really aggressive, it's all good."


----------



## MartyStrat54

seeker of rock said:


> The Mullard is divine. I've only logged about 10 hours on it since I bought it. Raytheon bp is on my want list, then. Do they go by different labels like mullards? If so, is there a date/production codes similar to mullards and telefunkens, etc. to identify them?



I think the best BP's are made between 1959 and 1964. A lot of the tubes were used by organ manufacturers, so these are relabeled or will say, "Made by Raytheon for..."

An RCA BP does not sound like the Raytheon BP. Easy to identify by there black shiny plates as if the metal was black and not coated.


----------



## RobS

Marty,
Remember the Phillips miniwatts I mentioned a few weeks back?
I had my amp on last night for about 6 hrs and the tone that was coming out of them was just bloody great. 
What is it about valves in that the longer they are on for (heat wise) the better they sound? Is it a reaction with the internal vacuum in that the hotter it gets it changes or what?

I'm about to head of for rehearshal now so will check back in tomorrow.

BTW the current combo I'm running is Phillips miniwatt in v1, TSol V2 and EH V3.

Rob


----------



## seeker of rock

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I would get a Raytheon BP high gain. Always good to have one of those.



You wouldn't have one you would want to sell, would you? Looking on ebay, and it seems people are wanting around $50 and up for the singles, which seems a little high. Or maybe that is what they're worth now?

Or does anyone know of someone reputable who sells nos tested tubes at decent prices?


----------



## BluesRocker

seeker of rock said:


> Or does anyone know of someone reputable who sells nos tested tubes at decent prices?



Marty. End of discussion. I am for sure he has some BP's laying around.


----------



## RiverRatt

seeker of rock said:


> You wouldn't have one you would want to sell, would you? Looking on ebay, and it seems people are wanting around $50 and up for the singles, which seems a little high. Or maybe that is what they're worth now?
> 
> Or does anyone know of someone reputable who sells nos tested tubes at decent prices?



eBay prices can be crazy on tubes. Every now and then the sleepers like Matsushitas, Ei and others start going for $20 or $30 a tube, and it's still a crap shoot whether or not you get a good tube. Then there's always the sharks fishing for some idiot who's willing to pay $80-$100 for the same tubes. Raytheon black plates are always in demand but can be found for a good price if you know what to look for and how to look for it.

If you go shopping on eBay, try to find the ones that are ending soon and flying under the radar. Don't bid unless the seller offers a money-back return policy and put up a low bid and don't look at it again until you get an email notification that you've won the auction. 

Or, just PM Marty and save the hassle


----------



## seeker of rock

BluesRocker said:


> Marty. End of discussion. I am for sure he has some BP's laying around.





RiverRatt said:


> Or, just PM Marty and save the hassle



Marty and I are PMing now. Thanks guys!


----------



## thetragichero

maybe i've just run into a string of luck on ebay, but i've got my dsl stuffed with 4 great NOS 12ax7 (matsushita, raytheon bp, raytheon, sylvania grey plate), plus 3 JJs and a NOS 5751 (for spares/mic preamps) = 8 tubes total for about 100$


----------



## solarburn

thetragichero said:


> maybe i've just run into a string of luck on ebay, but i've got my dsl stuffed with 4 great NOS 12ax7 (matsushita, raytheon bp, raytheon, sylvania grey plate), plus 3 JJs and a NOS 5751 (for spares/mic preamps) = 8 tubes total for about 100$



Nice! This guy knows what he's do'n!


----------



## thetragichero

not really, just copying the formula ya'll spent months/$$$ working on


----------



## solarburn

New addition at the Tube Store...






Original Genalex Gold Lion ECC83/B759 tubes are considered among the best 12AX7 tube types ever made. They are hard to find and when they are available, they are expensive. They exhibit a large detailed soundstage that is sought after by discerning audiophiles who demand the highest quality sound. The reissue Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 / B759 recreates the sound signature of the original. This tube features balanced sections and gold plated pins.

$47.95


----------



## solarburn

thetragichero said:


> not really, just copying the formula ya'll spent months/$$$ working on



You paid attention. Works good right...?


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> New addition at the Tube Store...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original Genalex Gold Lion ECC83/B759 tubes are considered among the best 12AX7 tube types ever made. They are hard to find and when they are available, they are expensive. They exhibit a large detailed soundstage that is sought after by discerning audiophiles who demand the highest quality sound. The reissue Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 / B759 recreates the sound signature of the original. This tube features balanced sections and gold plated pins.
> 
> $47.95



I use their reissue KT66's in my Vintage Modern. I love them.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I use their reissue KT66's in my Vintage Modern. I love them.



I had no idea they had a special sounding 12AX7. I knew about the power tubes but not these preamp ones.

Question is who's gonna buy 1, put it in V1 and give us a report?

I's broke right now or else I would do it...any takers...?


----------



## BluesRocker

Well. For 50 bucks I would rather go and buy a Tele, Ray BP or another NOS from Marty. Just my opinion.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Well. For 50 bucks I would rather go and buy a Tele, Ray BP or another NOS from Marty. Just my opinion.



Yeah I'm jus kid'n around about someone buying it.

I'm pretty happy with what I have right now. Still need a mini-watt though so I imagine that will be next once I have some cash. I haven't tried one of those yet.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have heard good things about the Mini-Watt. What sound do they bring? Do you know?


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I have heard good things about the Mini-Watt. What sound do they bring? Do you know?



Well Marty told me once but that was awhile ago and I'm pretty sure once I herd him say it sounds great I wanted to have one. They are a Philips tube but I don't know personally how they sound. Sheez man I need to get a nap I am getting delirious. Been up a long time.

I'm sure Marty and some of the other guys that have em' will chime in...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The NOS 7025's(RCA)I've had were quieter than the Chinese 7025 current production and in your amp that would be a plus. Do you like it, not like it or just wondering about it?



7025's are an industrial version of a 12AX7. They had spiral heater filaments. This allowed quieter preamp tubes. 7025's were used primarily in V1 of an amp. (Later, spiral heater filaments would be adapted to the 12AX7A.)

The best 7025 that I have found is the TAD. What's funny though, is that they offer the tube with "low noise" as a buying option. The whole purpose of a 7025 was to make the tube low noise. That's the problem with most Chinese tubes. They do the gain thing very well, but the "floor" noise level is higher than say a CP Tung-Sol. That being said, the Tung-Sol could be called a 7025.

To those that are new, I've said this before. The old USA 7025's, most notably the RCA, are a legend. In an attempt to sell more tubes, certain companies have taken the "7025" name and applied it to inferior product. Yes, it does sell tubes, especially if you have an old Fender with 7025's in it. When you are ordering and you see 7025's, you naturally are inclined to buy them. 7025's are what helped Fender get their magnificent clean tone. So, sticking in noisy tubes labeled 7025 is not going to get you where you want to be. Please consider this when looking at 7025 tubes. If you get a good one, then you have something, but if you get a bad one, you damn sure don't need it in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RobS said:


> Marty,
> Remember the Phillips miniwatts I mentioned a few weeks back?
> I had my amp on last night for about 6 hrs and the tone that was coming out of them was just bloody great.
> What is it about valves in that the longer they are on for (heat wise) the better they sound? Is it a reaction with the internal vacuum in that the hotter it gets it changes or what?
> 
> I'm about to head of for rehearshal now so will check back in tomorrow.
> 
> BTW the current combo I'm running is Phillips miniwatt in v1, TSol V2 and EH V3.
> 
> Rob



It's probably something to do with the entire amp getting stabilized, not just the preamp tubes. Technically, a tube is stabilized after being on 10 to 20 minutes. This is more for a power tube. Preamp tubes can stabilize in as little as two minutes. Once the heater has reached maximum temperature, the tube is capable of maximum emissions. I think that what you are experiencing could be from warmed up transformers. Six hours would really get them warmed up. Not by the use, but by all the excess tube heat. Being on that long and the amp getting a lot warmer than normal could also have moved the bias point. These are some things to consider.

Now I did see where those new "Treasure" tubes required a 300 hour break in period to sound their best. Anyone want to chime in on that? I think it's pure horse shit and another Chinese gimmick to sell tubes for a whole lot of money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> maybe i've just run into a string of luck on ebay, but i've got my dsl stuffed with 4 great NOS 12ax7 (matsushita, raytheon bp, raytheon, sylvania grey plate), plus 3 JJs and a NOS 5751 (for spares/mic preamps) = 8 tubes total for about 100$



I've been telling people this for a long time. If you have the patience to do this, you can score some good tubes for great prices. If you follow what has been laid out, you will be successful. 

That's a great score on some solid tubes. Way to go.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got a huge box of tubes given to me. I've spent the last hour going through them, and I've found a handful of 6V6GT's, a big ol' Sylvania 5U4GB, and a Mullard GZ34. No good preamp tubes but I did find a 12BA6 - wasn't someone looking for one of those recently?? Matt, was that you?


----------



## MM54

Yeah, my old Zenith radio is down because one of the 12BA6's tests at 20% and I only have ones with a 6v heater.

6V6's seem common - in those two boxes I got a while ago there were a ton of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well Marty told me once but that was awhile ago and I'm pretty sure once I herd him say it sounds great I wanted to have one. They are a Philips tube but I don't know personally how they sound. Sheez man I need to get a nap I am getting delirious. Been up a long time.
> 
> I'm sure Marty and some of the other guys that have em' will chime in...



Well the thing about Mini Watts is that they were made in six or seven different locations. I prefer the DARIO Mini Watt. I think I only have a couple of them left. These are usually a blue/green label. Getting hard to find them. I have shifted over to certain foreign dealers. Even paying for air shipping the overall transaction is cheaper. You just need to go with safe sellers.

The DARIO's sound like a hot German girl in a mini-skirt. They have a little German juice to them mixed with a splash of say a Dutch Amperex. To bring out the real flavor, you would want at least a 26-26. Personally, I go with 28-28. That really turns it into a spanker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> New addition at the Tube Store...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Original Genalex Gold Lion ECC83/B759 tubes are considered among the best 12AX7 tube types ever made. They are hard to find and when they are available, they are expensive. They exhibit a large detailed soundstage that is sought after by discerning audiophiles who demand the highest quality sound. The reissue Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 / B759 recreates the sound signature of the original. This tube features balanced sections and gold plated pins.
> 
> $47.95



Yeah, I would like to give them a go, but if you shop right, that could be 3 to 6 tubes on EBAY. Sure, not Telefunkens, but not too long ago I got the eight, slant top 59 RCA's for $81.

It's so easy to get caught up in a tube like this. So easy to spend $50 on one to try out. They always use the proper words in their ads. Man, it's got to be good at $50 a tube. No...not at all. I'm sure it sounds good, but is it really twice as good as a CP Tung-Sol?


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Yeah, my old Zenith radio is down because one of the 12BA6's tests at 20% and I only have ones with a 6v heater.
> 
> 6V6's seem common - in those two boxes I got a while ago there were a ton of them.



Send me an address. This one looks brand-new but I don't have any way to test it.


----------



## MM54

PM sent


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan is a good man. He is very loose with his tubes.


----------



## thetragichero

sounds like he needs beano


----------



## RobS

BluesRocker said:


> I have heard good things about the Mini-Watt. What sound do they bring? Do you know?



Sound wise, very detailed...much better than the TSol. Lots of gain, very Warm sounding and not harsh at all. 
One thing I noticed though is that they are a touch skinnier than say a Tsol or EH.
My current setup is Phillips in V1 and EH in 2 & 3. For me it is the sound that I love. 
If you can find them try one out.


Rob


----------



## MM54

(Pulls a Marty)

2...


----------



## MM54

1...


----------



## MM54

*1,000* posts! Woo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why does it say "955?" Not that you won't make 1,000.

Congratulations anyway!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Well, it's like I said before. What happened in America with its tube companies happened to Britain/Europe and their tube companies. The solid state craze hit so fast that thousands of tubes were left sitting in warehouses. When tube plants started shutting down, everybody was buying off of everybody. A lot of tubes were "mislabeled" by the tube companies. TV tubes were the hardest hit. I've known where one tube had nine different part numbers put on it. Then you had GE and Sylvania trading tubes with each other. They hung in the longest, so they were always swapping tubes. If you remember their codes, you can tell who really made the tube. On top of all this, you add in the Japanese tubes.
> 
> The better tube amp companies used the better tubes, so you will find Fisher tubes made by Amperex and Telefunken. Packard Bell used Amperex and Mullards. There are a lot of overseas brands that I know nothing about. Most of them bought Amperex or Mullards and relabeled them.
> 
> Another thing I touched on briefly in a prior post. Philips was the big controlling figure with European tubes. I can think of at least 15 brands that were all made by Philips. Amperex is one of them. The main thing I want to tell you is that for the most part, European tubes are of higher quality than American tubes. They bough most of their raw materials from the USA, but they put them together better. It's hard for me to say it, but it's true and that is why the real tube freaks, Hi Fi fanatics use Tele's, Mullards and Amperex. If RCA gray plates were best, they would be using them instead.
> *



For the new guys.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Why does it say "995?" Not that you won't make 1,000.



Damn, I guess it doesn't count ones from reporting spam threads once they're deleted. I'll go get 5 more


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, reporting spam is a good thing until they dissolve the thread.

Glad to see that 1,000 post. Thanks for coming here to get it. I figured you probably had some posts deleted.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan is a good man. He is very loose with his tubes.



Oh yeah, I'm sure that 12BA6 would fetch at least $1 on eBay. If you want, I'll send you one of my new G.E. 6T8 tubes. It's a triple diode/single triode tube. Silver plates and all. It's a freaky looking thing. It was designed to be a combination AM detector/FM detector/Amplifier. It's actually impressive that they squeezed that much stuff into a normal 9-pin tube. 

If anybody has a need for 12BH7's, talk to me. The little Blackstar heads use them as power tubes IIRC.

Just for curiosity's sake, is a Mullard GZ34 worth anything? I know you've said before that most rectifiers aren't worth the shipping cost.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A solid Mullard GZ34 should bring at least $80 if not more if it tests strong.

The online tube stores are selling them for $85 on up.

KCA- ANOS Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 | 5AR4/GZ34 | kcanostubes.com

Get that tube on EBAY. Make a Buy It Now for $75.


----------



## RiverRatt

Very cool. I'll try to get some pictures up of all these weird-ass tubes over the weekend.

The Mullard rectifier is strange. It's and IEC brand, it has a Mullard Blackburn factory code, and no top seams. I'm not up on rectifier models... is this normal?


----------



## solarburn

I jus got done catching up and Alan like Marty said that Mullard GZ34 is indeed worth money and wanted. I've seen them higher than $85 often. Usually a $100 and more.

Depends if its NOS or ANOS and again like Marty mentioned how strong it is but guys are selling them up to $150.00 if mint NOS. Looks like its the double "O" getter that that fetch the $150 range.


----------



## Procter2812

MartyStrat54 said:


> 7025's are an industrial version of a 12AX7. They had spiral heater filaments. This allowed quieter preamp tubes. 7025's were used primarily in V1 of an amp. (Later, spiral heater filaments would be adapted to the 12AX7A.)
> 
> The best 7025 that I have found is the TAD. What's funny though, is that they offer the tube with "low noise" as a buying option. The whole purpose of a 7025 was to make the tube low noise. That's the problem with most Chinese tubes. They do the gain thing very well, but the "floor" noise level is higher than say a CP Tung-Sol. That being said, the Tung-Sol could be called a 7025.
> 
> To those that are new, I've said this before. The old USA 7025's, most notably the RCA, are a legend. In an attempt to sell more tubes, certain companies have taken the "7025" name and applied it to inferior product. Yes, it does sell tubes, especially if you have an old Fender with 7025's in it. When you are ordering and you see 7025's, you naturally are inclined to buy them. 7025's are what helped Fender get their magnificent clean tone. So, sticking in noisy tubes labeled 7025 is not going to get you where you want to be. Please consider this when looking at 7025 tubes. If you get a good one, then you have something, but if you get a bad one, you damn sure don't need it in V1.



Your right there,

I bought a CP Harma 7025 and it was hands down the noisiest valve i have ever come across and sounded like mosquitos in a can!

It was supposed to be a low noise floor version from Watford valves, yet it sucked ass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I think we discussed that bad valve before. Some of the CP 7025's are really good, but like I said, you have to get one.

Hey you need to show up more often. You used to be here a lot.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> ...6T8 tubes. It's a triple diode/single triode tube. Silver plates and all. It's a freaky looking thing. It was designed to be a combination AM detector/FM detector/Amplifier. It's actually impressive that they squeezed that much stuff into a normal 9-pin tube.



My radio has a 19T8 in it, it was bad but I had a spare laying around that tests at 108%  (The old one now sits in sockets when they're getting soldered so the sockets don't fill with solder)

They're impressive little tubes, the triple structure is interesting, mine both have the silver plates, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think somebody designed an adapter to use the 6T8 or one very similar in a 12AX7 socket, with the theory that they added one extra gain stage per tube. Anyone remember that from way back?

BTW, here's what I've been doing this week. The amp is made from a lot of parts from that Magnavox stereo I bough last month. New resistors and caps. I plan to hit the power switch sometime tomorrow. If part of Tennessee disappears from the grid for awhile Saturday, it's me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I remember some special tube or adapter that did that. I think it may be located here in the thread. I remember someone had one or two of them for sale on EBAY. My response was just use a stronger 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your picture didn't load the first time. I started to leave the page and it loaded. That's some fine work Alan. That is great. I think it is going to be a smokin' amp. Where did you get the chassis from?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Your picture didn't load the first time. I started to leave the page and it loaded. That's some fine work Alan. That is great. I think it is going to be a smokin' amp. Where did you get the chassis from?



It was an old Crate G40C cabinet and chassis. I'm going to get some faceplates cut if and when I get it working, but for now I'm just using what was already there. It's good enough for testing. I think the twin 8" setup may sound pretty good with an overpowered Deluxe - like a couple of cranked Champs at the same time.


----------



## blues_n_cues

this is a great thread & great info but 185 pages..
like Walter says- HOLY CRAP....i may get it all figgered out before i die...


----------



## MartyStrat54

The only thing you will gain by reading all of the prior pages is that I change my mind a lot and Alan works too much and Joe works odd hours and Josh is seeking Def Leppard. You might see our personal sides better, but it is best to ask your questions now and get a "now" answer. Why go through dozens of failed experiments? Do you really want to know about 12BZ7's? They're junk. Don't use them. I won't and I don't. 

Preamp tubes? Stick with 12AX7's and anything made by Philips. Simple.

I will say we had some funny moments and I was glad I was there for the ride.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It was an old Crate G40C cabinet and chassis. I'm going to get some faceplates cut if and when I get it working, but for now I'm just using what was already there. It's good enough for testing. I think the twin 8" setup may sound pretty good with an overpowered Deluxe - like a couple of cranked Champs at the same time.



Is this wired up as mono 6V6's? Four of them will make 10 to 12 watts each. Hell I would go with two Copperhead ten-inch speakers. Give it some bite.


----------



## blues_n_cues

MartyStrat54 said:


> The only thing you will gain by reading all of the prior pages is that I change my mind a lot and Alan works too much and Joe works odd hours and Josh is seeking Def Leppard. You might see our personal sides better, but it is best to ask your questions now and get a "now" answer. Why go through dozens of failed experiments? Do you really want to know about 12BZ7's? They're junk. Don't use them. I won't and I don't.
> 
> Preamp tubes? Stick with 12AX7's and anything made by Philips. Simple.
> 
> I will say we had some funny moments and I was glad I was there for the ride.



well here is what my 40+ year tech- i take willie as GOD. he's built the block piece by piece.
my amp is a point by point board clone of an '81 jcm 2204 w/ el 34's
i like the older vintage british tone so he recommended
gt el 34m 
& gt ax7r3- which according to some bros are closest to mullards w/out the major coin.

you can check him out here.
Willie

as far as my local tech he does work for the kentucky headhunters,blackstone cherry,brad paisley,vince gill,everyone else in nashville....


----------



## blues_n_cues

MartyStrat54 said:


> The only thing you will gain by reading all of the prior pages is that I change my mind a lot and Alan works too much and Joe works odd hours and Josh is seeking Def Leppard. You might see our personal sides better, but it is best to ask your questions now and get a "now" answer. Why go through dozens of failed experiments? Do you really want to know about 12BZ7's? They're junk. Don't use them. I won't and I don't.
> 
> Preamp tubes? Stick with 12AX7's and anything made by Philips. Simple.
> 
> I will say we had some funny moments and I was glad I was there for the ride.



btw- whoever josh is,he'll dig it because as it stands this amp through my LP does a very spot on "wasted" & "switch 625" sound off on through the night..back when the leppard rocked.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think somebody designed an adapter to use the 6T8 or one very similar in a 12AX7 socket, with the theory that they added one extra gain stage per tube. Anyone remember that from way back?
> 
> BTW, here's what I've been doing this week. The amp is made from a lot of parts from that Magnavox stereo I bough last month. New resistors and caps. I plan to hit the power switch sometime tomorrow. If part of Tennessee disappears from the grid for awhile Saturday, it's me.



Now I can't wait to hear about this. Where do you find the time between work and family hehe!!!! That's pretty awesome you do'n it man. Kudos!


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE, I sent you a time sensitive PM.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE, I sent you a time sensitive PM.



I looked but didn't see what it is...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is this wired up as mono 6V6's? Four of them will make 10 to 12 watts each. Hell I would go with two Copperhead ten-inch speakers. Give it some bite.



Yeah, they are all wired up mono. I decided not to use the extra preamp tube as there's nowhere else in there to put anything! Next time I'll know to use a bigger chassis. I hope the output stays at around 40 watts. I'm using a generic Fender 40 watt OT. I've got to put in the ground bus today and tie everything to it that needs it, then I'm gonna build a current limiter to hook it up to before I flip the switch.

I never really considered this part before, but it's scary to even think about throwing the switches on this thing for the first time.

Joe, I meant to mention about work - I'm sleeping like normal people again. We finally hired some help and now I'm getting home at 6 p.m. instead of 4 a.m.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, they are all wired up mono. I decided not to use the extra preamp tube as there's nowhere else in there to put anything! Next time I'll know to use a bigger chassis. I hope the output stays at around 40 watts. I'm using a generic Fender 40 watt OT. I've got to put in the ground bus today and tie everything to it that needs it, then I'm gonna build a current limiter to hook it up to before I flip the switch.
> 
> I never really considered this part before, but it's scary to even think about throwing the switches on this thing for the first time.
> 
> Joe, I meant to mention about work - I'm sleeping like normal people again. We finally hired some help and now I'm getting home at 6 p.m. instead of 4 a.m.



Awesome. You needed that to change for the better. Glad its working out. Now...when you going to fire that thing up? I'm excited to hear how it goes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I dunno. I just woke up and my eyes aren't working right yet. I may get out and run to town before I sit down at the bench. Hours have a way of sneaking by while I'm doing this.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I dunno. I just woke up and my eyes aren't working right yet. I may get out and run to town before I sit down at the bench. Hours have a way of sneaking by while I'm doing this.



Get to it when you get to it. Hell I just got done mow'n the lawn, do'n the laundry and kick'n the dog! Not much left to do today except rock out! I've got the house to myself and no volume constraints.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-FYI, when someone sends you an EBAY link and it doesn't work? Look in the browser window at the URL address. Contained in the address will be the item number. It will actually say, "Item Number=xxxxxxxxxxx." Copy that number and then paste it into the search box on the EBAY page that popped up. It will then take you to the item.

Anyway, it was a 2001 Fat Strat Deluxe. Cherry Sunburst solid ash body. About as close to a Les Paul as you can get. I guess he had lowered his original price and relisted to $750. I decided to play the wait and see game. No one bid and I had already sent him a message with an offer. Well, he didin't take my offer and I may not end up getting it. I guess I should have paid the $750 plus $50 to ship. The Deluxe is the guitar Fender made to replace the Strat Plus/Deluxe.

Oh well. I'll go find the EBAY Item number and let you have another go of it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here it is Joe.

Fender American Deluxe Fat Strat HSS Cherry Sunburst - eBay (item 130409419319 end time Jul-16-10 23:44:47 PDT)

ITEM # 130409419319


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here it is Joe.
> 
> Fender American Deluxe Fat Strat HSS Cherry Sunburst - eBay (item 130409419319 end time Jul-16-10 23:44:47 PDT)
> 
> ITEM # 130409419319



Thanx for cluing me in on the # in the url. I got it now. That's a pretty sweet look'n strat. Really like the Cherry Sunburst. A fat strat too. HSS is how I like em' but that's me. Appearance looks good. Could have taken a pic of the neck joist into the body. I can't see how well it fits, tight or spacing. More fretboard area down the neck too but most of it looks good. I don't like how he states no refund. If the guitar has a problem I'd be filing a claim then...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've talked to the seller. He is going to do a buy it now. He doesn't want to go outside of EBAY. Anyway, here in the next 30 minutes, that nice Strat will be mine. It's hardly been played and it has been in the case indoors for 8 years.

To me it looks like new, but I want to play it not look at it. Its superior condition is just a plus. Speaking of "plus." This is the first year of the Deluxe. They made the Strat Plus until 1999. Then in 2000, some of the early Deluxe's were called Strat Plus. In 2001, they called them the Fat Strat Deluxe. This has the LSR roller nut, the locking tuners and special bridge, plus the hot pickup arrangement with S-1 switching. I've been wanting a stock Strat with a humbucker. It should sound great in that ash body. This has everything I want. Looks like I will be selling my Schecter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Done deal. It's mine. Drool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh one other thing. I know I'm going to like the neck as it is the exact same neck and fret wire as my 1989 Strat Plus. 9.5 inch radius.

Humma-humma-humma!


----------



## solarburn

Congratis mon! Sounds great then. It sure looks good. Let me know how she sounds and feels when you get her home. Put some pics on your page too. Too sexy not to. Oh and no leg this time haha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I know it's going to be good enough for the BooB thread and I will have to post it over there as well. I never had a Strat like this one. A little around 7 pounds. Not too bad. I was sort of looking at a FMT (Flame Maple Top), but I don't like how they look on the edge. I doubt if a thin piece of maple would make a whole lot of change in tone. When I think of ash, I think of baseball bats. Frickin' hardwood. I got a napkin with me right now as I'm starting to drool again. A standard American Strat is over $1000 through MF or GC. Paying $750/$50 (total $800) for this guitar is still a good deal. They are selling MIM Strats with different pickups like a Gilmour model with EMG, for the same price as this and those MIM's are not as nice as this one by a long, long ways.

The only unknown is how the pickups/electronics will sound. This will be my first S-1 Strat. From Fender:

Now standard equipment in many of our American Deluxe series and American series instruments, Fender's groundbreaking S-1 switching system allows players to switch pickup configurations in an instant. The switch is visually undetectable, but tonally it turns your instrument into the most versatile axe on the planet! Located in the crown of the master volume knob, one push of the switch will place your pickups in an assemblage of parallel, series and pickup-combining configurations. You can have the best of all worlds!

Check this out Joe, it's like Boolean Algebra. 

http://www.fender.com/features/s1/pdf/AmericanStratHSS011-7000.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I hit the switch and all I get is hum. I think I've got a ground problem somewhere. I bought some reading glasses while I was out (god, I feel old but they help a lot!). Maybe I can figure out what I did wrong.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-FYI, when someone sends you an EBAY link and it doesn't work? Look in the browser window at the URL address. Contained in the address will be the item number. It will actually say, "Item Number=xxxxxxxxxxx." Copy that number and then paste it into the search box on the EBAY page that popped up. It will then take you to the item.



You also can click the link and in the URL there will be two places it will have "&amp;" in it, just replace those with simple "&" and you'll be good to go.

The forums parse the URL incorrectly when it isn't tagged right, and the HTML equivalent to the ampersand screws up the $_GET scripts for the page, since the variables aren't named with 'amp;name'


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I can't see how well it fits, tight or spacing. More fretboard area down the neck too but most of it looks good. I don't like how he states no refund. If the guitar has a problem I'd be filing a claim then...



I've never come across a bad fitting "American" neck. If it doesn't fit the body, they try a different neck. That's what you pay for and is the difference between a MIK or MIM Strat. The luthiers at Fender do a pretty damn good job of finding the right neck for the right body.

Also, since this deal went through EBAY, I'm protected under PayPal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> You also can click the link and in the URL there will be two places it will have "&amp;" in it, just replace those with simple "&" and you'll be good to go.
> 
> The forums parse the URL incorrectly when it isn't tagged right, and the HTML equivalent to the ampersand screws up the $_GET scripts for the page, since the variables aren't named with 'amp;name'



If we ever run into some serious computer problems, it looks like MATT is our IT guy. Thanks MATT.


----------



## MM54

Any time


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never come across a bad fitting "American" neck. If it doesn't fit the body, they try a different neck. That's what you pay for and is the difference between a MIK or MIM Strat. The luthiers at Fender do a pretty damn good job of finding the right neck for the right body.
> 
> Also, since this deal went through EBAY, I'm protected under PayPal.



I always like to see it but I'm sure you are going to be fine. You are protected. Man that thing has some crazy pu combinations. Now I really want to hear about how that works. Looking at the charts gives an idea but I'll wait for the real world test from you haha!.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> You also can click the link and in the URL there will be two places it will have "&amp;" in it, just replace those with simple "&" and you'll be good to go.
> 
> The forums parse the URL incorrectly when it isn't tagged right, and the HTML equivalent to the ampersand screws up the $_GET scripts for the page, since the variables aren't named with 'amp;name'



Thanx!


----------



## thetragichero

i always wondered what 's-1' switching with a humbucker was... i always joke that i play strats because their schematics are easy enough for me to understand


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I always like to see it but I'm sure you are going to be fine. You are protected. Man that thing has some crazy pu combinations. Now I really want to hear about how that works. Looking at the charts gives an idea but I'll wait for the real world test from you haha!.



In a ways it is sort of ridiculous. In the beginning, it was a three-way selector for neck, middle and bridge. Then the famous "fudging" of the selector gave birth to the five-way switch. Now there are 10 settings. I noticed there are a few duplicates, but the switch is either up or down (master volume is a push-pull pot). What I'm interested in is the settings where only one of the humbucker pickups is active (the front half) and the other two are on and the very next position the humbucker is fully on with the middle and the neck. How would you like to wire this thing up from scratch? Good grief.


----------



## thetragichero

don't say these things, marty!
i'll end up trying to work it out on paper and make a MESS
it's probably one of them fancy schmancy superswitches... 5p4t or something
i'm sure it then just comes down to shorting one of the coils of the humbucker
i refuse to pay 20$ for a selector switch though.... my most complex wiring scheme has the north coil of the bridge humbucker on my monster strat on at all time when then push-pull pot is up


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats, Marty. That sounds like a killer guitar. When are you going to break down and buy a Les Paul? With all those classic Marshalls, you need one. There's some killer stuff coming out of the custom shop. If you don't obsess on flames, you can get a great guitar for around $2k.

I've been studying some way-out-there strat wiring lately. Have you seen the passive mid cut/boost control? It uses a double-ganged pot with a cap on one side and an inductor on the other. It's supposed to go from a mild mid cut to that quacky half-cocked wah sound. I've been wanting to wire my stratoclone with a master volume, master tone and that mid wiring. You can even get the inductor at Radio Shack.


----------



## thetragichero

i only have three inductors in most of my strats...


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is what we were looking at. From Fender:

http://www.fender.com/features/s1/pdf/AmericanStratHSS011-7000.pdf

And I was wrong. All 10 are different. I thought there was a duplicate, but no.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well since we are doing a little off the clock BSing. Let me ask you guys a few questions. How much lighter are the chambered Les Paul's versus the older Les Paul's? Is there a major difference in tone. I would say no to this, because I would have heard something by now. And wasn't 1984 a major year in Les Paul's? When did they begin chambering. I really don't see it knocking off that much weight. 

JOE-I really can't take a lot of weight on my right shoulder and I think the Lester would be too much. That's why I asked the guy how much the Strat weighed. He said about 7 pounds. I had that right elbow surgery and now I may have to have shoulder surgery. My past is starting to haunt me.


----------



## RiverRatt

The chambered Les Pauls IMO are not to make ultra-light guitars - they are to put more mahogany blanks into Les Paul production. Where that heavy billet at one time would have been sliced in two and made into two SG's, they chamber it and get the big block down to 8.5 - 10 lbs and make it into a Les Paul. That's why I mentioned historics. They tend to be made out of lighter, unchambered bodies that resonate better. Some people like the way the chambered bodies resonate, but I'd rather have a solid piece of wood. If I get tired of standing, I always have a chair handy  It's good enough for B.B. King.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well since we are doing a little off the clock BSing. Let me ask you guys a few questions. How much lighter are the chambered Les Paul's versus the older Les Paul's? Is there a major difference in tone. I would say no to this, because I would have heard something by now. And wasn't 1984 a major year in Les Paul's? When did they begin chambering. I really don't see it knocking off that much weight.
> 
> JOE-I really can't take a lot of weight on my right shoulder and I think the Lester would be too much. That's why I asked the guy how much the Strat weighed. He said about 7 pounds. I had that right elbow surgery and now I may have to have shoulder surgery. My past is starting to haunt me.



Totally understandable. My shoulders are thrashed from crashing mountain biking and lifting weights. I can relate...the older I get the worse I feel now shiat! Constant state of impingement...LOL

The Fat Strats gonna be all kinds of fun!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Alan, I can see myself with a major piece of wood around my neck sitting in a chair on stage doing La Grange. Wasn't it the Rolling Stones that did the song, "Mother's Little Helper?" One of the repeated lines was, "What a drag it is getting old." No shit. 

Wow! These guys are good. What stage presence. I think it's clever that they all sit in chairs.

I think BB was still standing at age 55. Of course he didn't abuse his body like I did. Doing auto glass for 18 years was probably the worst for me.


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn Marty. I hope this knee surgery doesn't come back and haunt me like that. Hope everything works out with ya though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a bad knee may affect your standing, it won't affect your playing. The elbow surgery took some time to heal and it is now in that stage where it just feels spongy and weird. (Nerve tissue stuff.)

Now if I have to have shoulder surgery, that's going to be a bitch.


----------



## AxlOz

MartyStrat54 said:


> _(snip)_ How much lighter are the chambered Les Paul's versus the older Les Paul's? Is there a major difference in tone. _(snip)_



I used to own a white 1986 gibson LP studio. It was heavy! And thats why I sold it.. Had all the hallmarks of a les paul in terms of tone and sustain, but the weight just annoyed me on stage - broke straps etc.. I got by with an epi set neck studio that was quite a bit thinner in the body and MUCH lighter until earlier this year when i bought a 2009 gibson LP studio, again in white. The new one is much lighter than the old and its a gibson so it plays like a les paul should..

In terms of tone I have to say there's a bit of difference, but not enough to counter the weight relief. I found the 86 LP to sound more compressed and a little thinner in its highs, but it had lots of good, clean sustain. The '09 LP is chambered and sounds a little more open in comparison. The sustain is still there but it gets a little noisy when it rings out through high gains. I actually think i prefer the tone of the newer one, but its always a personal preference thing.. And like i said, these are subtle differences, not as night and day as say.. oh a nice NOS ax7 in V1 - which brings us back on topic!

I've been playing with some NOS Sylvania and Miniwatt ax7's, as well as a couple of RCA 5751's, and a bunch of current prod stuff. Substantial differences between them all! I'll post some conclusions when I finish my tube swapping activities.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a bad knee may affect your standing, it won't affect your playing. The elbow surgery took some time to heal and it is now in that stage where it just feels spongy and weird. (Nerve tissue stuff.)
> 
> Now if I have to have shoulder surgery, that's going to be a bitch.



Yeah I would say that shoulder would effect your playing a very substaninal amount you might have to re learn to play. I hope that it doesn't come to that though. Keep us updated though. I got to walk today. Very little but I did. I have ice on it now. It is swollen bout 3 times the size if my other knee.


----------



## MartyStrat54

AxlOz said:


> Oh a nice NOS ax7 in V1 - which brings us back on topic!
> 
> I've been playing with some NOS Sylvania and Miniwatt ax7's, as well as a couple of RCA 5751's, and a bunch of current prod stuff. Substantial differences between them all! I'll post some conclusions when I finish my tube swapping activities.



Hey Axl, thanks for the Les Paul info. The last time I played one was 1991. That was the stuff I was looking for.

Yes, this is a tube thread. Let me say I love the Miniwatt. I like the Dario Miniwatt the best. I changed two amps over to this tube in V1 and then I have Telefunken rib plates in two others and I've forgotten what I have in some of my other amps.

I hope that you end up with the Miniwatts in V1 and V2 and the Sylvania's for other slots. 

What amp is this?


----------



## RiverRatt

I was just messing with you. I don't do much hard rockin' anymore. Mostly I've been doing that little blues/jazz combo we put together. That kinda gig lends itself to sitting. Besides, I'm one leg short, remember? Sometimes a prosthesis gets hung on cables and AC cords and you don't know it until you hit the floor. No way I'm taking a dive with a $3,000 LP.

Check this out - I got it working today!






I took my alligator leads and started bridging connections that I made (should have made) under the board. The last one I tried was the jumper that tied the filter caps into the OT. That was a big relief finding that. I'm still getting a little heater hum that I need to sort out, but man, this thing is a beast. It really loves that OCD pedal. I'm trying to figure out how the volume controls interact. I just got through playing with it LOUD for about an hour. Controlled feedback, pinch harmonics, definition, massive low end, I'm practically giddy. I think it worked out great for a first build. Here's a shot of the chassis I cannibalized. I don't think you'll find a better looking Crate G40C. I have to get some aluminum faceplates cut. As it stands right now, I have at the most $150 in this project. It's running four RCA smoky top 6V6GT black plates and I've got an old Ei smooth plate in V2 and your Electrohome in V1. Note the big-ass RCA 5R4 rectifier that I went with. I've got that and a couple of 5U4GB's. The 5R4 puts out about 10 less volts on the plates. I've never had the opportunity to roll rectifier tubes before - this could be a new thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, I mean this. That is awesome. One of the guys on this thread built an amp. It's beautiful. I love the bullet holes in the face plate. Even more since it's a Crate. I guarantee that the Crate never sounded so good. Man, I think I will print off a copy of that. I love that big bottle rectifier. What is your B+ on the 6V6's? Man all of those parts went together great. A four, 6V6 amp. An American 401 killer. I bet if you cranked it hard, it would do 50 watts easy.

Yeah those rectifier tubes are all different and when you change them, you need to look at the bias. Is this a cathode biased amp, or a fixed bias like a Marshall?

The closest thing I got to that is my Bogen PA that was converted to a guitar amp. It uses two 7868 and puts out 35 watts. It uses an EZ81 for a rectifier.


----------



## solarburn

Very awesome Alan!


----------



## AxlOz

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Axl, thanks for the Les Paul info. The last time I played one was 1991. That was the stuff I was looking for.
> 
> Yes, this is a tube thread. Let me say I love the Miniwatt. I like the Dario Miniwatt the best. I changed two amps over to this tube in V1 and then I have Telefunken rib plates in two others and I've forgotten what I have in some of my other amps.
> 
> I hope that you end up with the Miniwatts in V1 and V2 and the Sylvania's for other slots.
> 
> What amp is this?



I'm basically playing around with them and a few others just to see what sorta sounds I can get from them. Swapping between my 3 amps - 50w JCM900slx; sovtek mig100; and a bogner alchemist.

So far I'm really liking the sylvania in v1 of the bogner (its a low-mid emphasised amp), but the miniwatts are better for the marshall and sovtek in v1. I have an australian made miniwatt and a dutch made miniwatt, they sound fairly similar and are both quite dark, whereas the sylvania's are pretty bright with a nice breakup to them. I also have a national NOS 12ax7 which i'm currently running in v1 of the marshall. I put an RCA 5751 (long black plates) in v2 of the marshall and it warmed it up a little, but I actually prefer to use a current prod sovtek 12ax7W*C* over the RCA here. There's something about the WC tube that takes a bit of distortion out, but is amazingly clear.

I have a bunch of NOS 12AT7's coming soon so I'll be playing with those soon too, mainly in the v2 onwards sockets though. I wish the NOS stuff was easier to come by over here in Australia..


----------



## RiverRatt

It's cathode biased and the last time I checked it at idle it was around 270+. I think I may need to shorten the heater leads and move some of my grounds around. The cathodes are tied to ground with a 150 ohm resistor and a 50mfd cap. It adds a little more sag to the circuit. Joey Voltage gave me pointers all through this build and really it was a lot easier than I thought. I made do with as many parts as I could. Only the OT, sockets, caps and resistors are new - everything else is recycled. Following Joey's advice, I put 470 ohm screen resistors on the 6V6's and upped the filter cap values a little. The hum may partly be coming from the old transformer. I can live with it. It disappears when you're playing it.

I'm pretty stoked about it, too. I wanna build something else, now! Thing is, I've still got the parts lying around for a 5 watt single-ended EL84 amp. I need to find an EZ81 or 6CA4 rectifier tube. I know I've got one around here somewhere.

I was really happy with the way the board turned out. I used screw terminals and built it on a scrap of old fiberboard from the Magnavox cabinet.

Joe, with the OCD pushing it, it sounds a lot like the Gibson/Monza video you posted awhile back. Super hot pure tube burn, feedback, pinch harmonics, sag, it's a fire breather. With the two differently voiced channels tied in together with the volume controls, you can blend the two and actually get some JTM45 sounding crunch. It's nice and dark, too, even with the Electrohome in V1. That bright input #1 is massive with a humbucker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well hell, if it's sounding that good, let's start selling them. I guess you don't need to tweak the bias if it is breathing fire with a nice amount of SAG. That hum could be in the PT, but it wouldn't hurt to look at the wiring one more time. Did those nice 6V6's come in that earlier Magnavox score?

Dude, if you need an EZ81/6CA4, let me know. I'm good on those.


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! Let my wife get over this one first. I've had every horizontal surface in the house full of tubes, wires, all kinds of shit. I thought I was dead the other night when she was playing nice and picked up something I'd dropped and she set it down on my 30w soldering iron. The whole time I'm going "no, no, no, no.....". You know that sizzle when you touch something incredibly hot? Just the day before I'd reached for it with both eyes on whatever I was getting ready to solder and picked it up by the heat shield. I didn't get bit by electricity though (well, maybe once slightly).

I got three of the RCA (Magnavox) out of the Magnavox amp and one of the 5U4GB's. The Sylvania 12AX7 must be bad. I haven't tested it but I couldn't get a reading with it in V1. That box of tubes that dude gave me Thursday had a white letter RCA 6V6 in it that matched up with the Magnavox tubes exactly. I've still got a couple of G.E. 6V6's and a couple of Tung-Sols. Joey helped me get the choke from the Magnavox wired up in place of one of the resistors. It's damned aggressive. If you've ever wanted to build an amp, this is a fun and fairly easy design to build. If you can solder without cooking a resistor, you can do it. The filter caps drain so fast there's virtually no residual voltage in the circuit. Just go to the Weber site and grab the BOM, schematic and diagram.

Oh yeah, while I was flipping it around today I broke the guide pin off that RCA 5R4. That's the tube I was trying to give to Joe awhile back. I'm glad he didn't take it!


----------



## seeker of rock

I have another preamp tube question:

What causes browning of the glass of a used preamp tube. Not like a burned, thick brown, but more like a very light hazy brown discoloration of the glass?

And why do some used tubes have this discoloration and others don't?


----------



## MM54

Hey guys.

Alan - I got the 12BA6 today, put it on the tester, 93-94% so it's good. Put it in the radio and it sounds a ton better than with the old one, I can hear some clarity now! If only my shop wasn't underground, I'd get even better signal 

So here's what it took to fix the radio (the Phillips is the dead one):




I like my contact cleaner, I don't know where it came from but it does a damn good job, plus the can says something about 26,000 volt strength.


While I was getting that picture off my phone, I figured I'd share my most recent creation, a pedal!




(I've put labels on it with tape, but I'll print stickers off eventually. There is the mains switch by the tube, volume, and gain controls.)





It was real fun to wire. That little trimmer pot is used to balance the volume (via gain) on vs bypassed with both controls at noon. Worked nicely. Only problem is the Out jack is iffy (needs some more contact cleaner, I figure) and I wired the volume pot backwards - turn it to the right and the volume drops 

The best part about the pedal - it runs on a 9V (and eats them up, I'm going to make a wall supply soon) and uses a 12FQ8


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's cathode biased and the last time I checked it at idle it was around 270+. I think I may need to shorten the heater leads and move some of my grounds around. The cathodes are tied to ground with a 150 ohm resistor and a 50mfd cap. It adds a little more sag to the circuit. Joey Voltage gave me pointers all through this build and really it was a lot easier than I thought. I made do with as many parts as I could. Only the OT, sockets, caps and resistors are new - everything else is recycled. Following Joey's advice, I put 470 ohm screen resistors on the 6V6's and upped the filter cap values a little. The hum may partly be coming from the old transformer. I can live with it. It disappears when you're playing it.
> 
> I'm pretty stoked about it, too. I wanna build something else, now! Thing is, I've still got the parts lying around for a 5 watt single-ended EL84 amp. I need to find an EZ81 or 6CA4 rectifier tube. I know I've got one around here somewhere.
> 
> I was really happy with the way the board turned out. I used screw terminals and built it on a scrap of old fiberboard from the Magnavox cabinet.
> 
> Joe, with the OCD pushing it, it sounds a lot like the Gibson/Monza video you posted awhile back. Super hot pure tube burn, feedback, pinch harmonics, sag, it's a fire breather. With the two differently voiced channels tied in together with the volume controls, you can blend the two and actually get some JTM45 sounding crunch. It's nice and dark, too, even with the Electrohome in V1. That bright input #1 is massive with a humbucker.



Wow! You built yourself a nice smoldering dynamic amp then. Very nice job!


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Alan - I got the 12BA6 today, put it on the tester, 93-94% so it's good. Put it in the radio and it sounds a ton better than with the old one, I can hear some clarity now! If only my shop wasn't underground, I'd get even better signal
> 
> So here's what it took to fix the radio (the Phillips is the dead one):
> 
> I like my contact cleaner, I don't know where it came from but it does a damn good job, plus the can says something about 26,000 volt strength.
> 
> 
> While I was getting that picture off my phone, I figured I'd share my most recent creation, a pedal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I've put labels on it with tape, but I'll print stickers off eventually. There is the mains switch by the tube, volume, and gain controls.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was real fun to wire. That little trimmer pot is used to balance the volume (via gain) on vs bypassed with both controls at noon. Worked nicely. Only problem is the Out jack is iffy (needs some more contact cleaner, I figure) and I wired the volume pot backwards - turn it to the right and the volume drops
> 
> The best part about the pedal - it runs on a 9V (and eats them up, I'm going to make a wall supply soon) and uses a 12FQ8



Hows the pedal sound?


----------



## MM54

Well I just back from trying it again, and the output jack (which I just bought, new, for this pedal) is definitely faulty. I was able to get it to work on my signal generator, and since then it's been dead. If I twist the cable around in the jack sometimes it'll pop in. I guess I have to figure out what I'm going to do about getting a new new jack for it (I don't really want to spend $5 shipping a $2 jack). Maybe I'll complain to the shop I got it from.

So to answer your question in short solar, I don't know. It added some grit to the 1kHz it passed in my shop, but other than that it's got a bum jack -.-

(Yes, I resoldered the lugs, cleaned the jack, etc. The more time I put in and take out the cable, the harder it is to make contact.)


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Well I just back from trying it again, and the output jack (which I just bought, new, for this pedal) is definitely faulty. I was able to get it to work on my signal generator, and since then it's been dead. If I twist the cable around in the jack sometimes it'll pop in. I guess I have to figure out what I'm going to do about getting a new new jack for it (I don't really want to spend $5 shipping a $2 jack). Maybe I'll complain to the shop I got it from.
> 
> So to answer your question in short solar, I don't know. It added some grit to the 1kHz it passed in my shop, but other than that it's got a bum jack -.-
> 
> (Yes, I resoldered the lugs, cleaned the jack, etc. The more time I put in and take out the cable, the harder it is to make contact.)



Ok. Well you'll get it it up and running soon. Then give a report.


----------



## MM54

Will do


----------



## MartyStrat54

seeker of rock said:


> I have another preamp tube question:
> 
> What causes browning of the glass of a used preamp tube. Not like a burned, thick brown, but more like a very light hazy brown discoloration of the glass?
> 
> And why do some used tubes have this discoloration and others don't?



A lot has to do with the environment. It could be from years of cigarette smoke. If it's on the outside, take a damp cotton swab and work it on the tube and them smell it. You'll know right away if it is from cigarettes. There are other airborne substances that can coat a tube. Again, tubes were used in a great many places.

If it is inside the tube, this is sometimes caused by the getter process. It can actually stain the tube in other places, usually on the side by the bottom.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Alan - I got the 12BA6 today, put it on the tester, 93-94% so it's good. Put it in the radio and it sounds a ton better than with the old one, I can hear some clarity now! If only my shop wasn't underground, I'd get even better signal
> 
> So here's what it took to fix the radio (the Phillips is the dead one):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like my contact cleaner, I don't know where it came from but it does a damn good job, plus the can says something about 26,000 volt strength.
> 
> 
> While I was getting that picture off my phone, I figured I'd share my most recent creation, a pedal!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (I've put labels on it with tape, but I'll print stickers off eventually. There is the mains switch by the tube, volume, and gain controls.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was real fun to wire. That little trimmer pot is used to balance the volume (via gain) on vs bypassed with both controls at noon. Worked nicely. Only problem is the Out jack is iffy (needs some more contact cleaner, I figure) and I wired the volume pot backwards - turn it to the right and the volume drops
> 
> The best part about the pedal - it runs on a 9V (and eats them up, I'm going to make a wall supply soon) and uses a 12FQ8



I got to get me a old tube radio on EBAY. They ain't that bad to buy. I really like yours, it's sweet.

Where did you get the plans for your pedal? I'm really surprised that it was set up for a 12FQ8. Did you have a 12FQ8, or did you buy one? They are pretty cheap on EBAY and I noticed a lot of tube projects are using the 12FQ8. 

As Joe said, when you get the bugs out, let us know how it sounds. Is it just a booster?


----------



## MM54

I have a set of 5 Tung-Sol 5651 (no idea what they're for) that I can't test (don't have the settings in my roll chart), but they're all totally coated inside with dense, thick black... stuff.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got to get me a old tube radio on EBAY. They ain't that bad to buy. I really like yours, it's sweet.
> 
> Where did you get the plans for your pedal? I'm really surprised that it was set up for a 12FQ8. Did you have a 12FQ8, or did you buy one? They are pretty cheap on EBAY and I noticed a lot of tube projects are using the 12FQ8.
> 
> As Joe said, when you get the bugs out, let us know how it sounds. Is it just a booster?



I like my radio too 

I came up with my plans with help from some dude I met somewhere else. It's pretty much just a gain stage set around the weird-ass 12FQ8. I have 29 of them from the Wurlitzer. I've not seen anything else using them, think I should buy up the market while I can ?

It starves the cathode so it adds some good distortion, but also should add a little punch, since there is some gain going on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I have a set of 5 Tung-Sol 5651 (no idea what they're for) that I can't test (don't have the settings in my roll chart), but they're all totally coated inside with dense, thick black... stuff.



That coating is on there because this tube glows. From NJ7P>Miniature type used as a glow-discharge voltage reference tube for use in dc power supplies. Requires miniature 7-contact socket.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I like my radio too
> 
> I came up with my plans with help from some dude I met somewhere else. It's pretty much just a gain stage set around the weird-ass 12FQ8. I have 29 of them from the Wurlitzer. I've not seen anything else using them, think I should buy up the market while I can ?
> 
> It starves the cathode so it adds some good distortion, but also should add a little punch, since there is some gain going on.



Is the pedal based on the Matsumin Valvecaster? I thought about building that pedal sometime, IIRC it uses a 12AX7. You're right about starving the cathode. The tube technically shouldn't even work with so little voltage.

So, I think I screwed up one thing with the amp. The shorting jacks on the inputs aren't shorting and I've got two live volume controls no matter which side I'm plugged in to, or even when I'm not plugged in. This thing is so hot I'm considering getting a 5751 to try in V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> The more time I put in and take out the cable, the harder it is to make contact.



That's just the nature of those jacks. They are prone to fail. If you'll look at the metal strip that runs across the tip end of the jack, it'll be pushed up out of the casing a little bit, not allowing the tip to make contact. A quick fix for that is to push the strip back down, then bend the tabs 90° to the sides which will keep it from pushing back up. That fixed my Laney amp (which had jacks like those) until I sold it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> This thing is so hot I'm considering getting a 5751 to try in V1.



So much for needing and "extra gain tube." Good lord, what if you had done that? It would have been the Zakk Wylde model by ALAN AMPS. Sounds like you have got plenty of gain. These one off amps can sometimes be magic. I think once you get it all tweaked out, you are going to have one special guitar amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> So much for needing and "extra gain tube." Good lord, what if you had done that? It would have been the Zakk Wylde model by ALAN AMPS. Sounds like you have got plenty of gain. These one off amps can sometimes be magic. I think once you get it all tweaked out, you are going to have one special guitar amp.



Yeah, it's really too hot. I'm hoping that tomorrow I can get the switches wired up right on the inputs and get rid of some of the noise and stray gain. I'm also going to have to get a couple of 8" speakers or one 10" - that' about all that little enclosure will take. It has these little Crate 8" speakers (probably early Eminence). They were never designed for this kind of punishment. Weber has a couple of 8" alnico speakers for around $35 each. I think I may go with those instead of the single 10" unless you've got a good suggestion.

You should see this amp cabinet. I think it's going to take CLR, a toothbruh, an a good dose of Armour-All to make this thing look decent. I found a strip of 2" aluminum flat bar to use for the front and rear plates. Now I have to figure out how to get the letters on there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I never liked anything smaller than a ten. Eight inch speakers are going to be treble rich and the thickness just won't be there. In other words, it could take a great sounding amp and make it thin. There are plenty of 10-inch speakers that can handle four, 6V6's. The problem is you would have to make a new baffle board and the OE one is probably glue up as part of the "box." 

That's a shame if you have to go with eights. I'd like to hear that amp of yours through one of my 412 cabs. I do the Josh technique and turn the combo into a head and them make a nice 212 cab for it. One Texas Heat and one Black Powder.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I never liked anything smaller than a ten. Eight inch speakers are going to be treble rich and the thickness just won't be there. In other words, it could take a great sounding amp and make it thin. There are plenty of 10-inch speakers that can handle four, 6V6's. The problem is you would have to make a new baffle board and the OE one is probably glue up as part of the "box."
> 
> That's a shame if you have to go with eights. I'd like to hear that amp of yours through one of my 412 cabs. I do the Josh technique and turn the combo into a head and them make a nice 212 cab for it. One Texas Heat and one Black Powder.



I'm not afraid of replacing the baffle board. I can rig up something better than Crate did easily. It's going to be hard bracing it enough that it doesn't resonate. I know why Fender built those amps so big, now. That's just too much signal in too small a space. I was actually considering a pair of Weber signature 8" alnicos. They are only $35 each. You're probably right, though. A good 10" speaker would be better with that much power.

What's your recommedation for a single 10" on a budget? The amp is fairly dark already.

EDIT: I've been looking at the Eminence Legend 105.8 - the clips sound good and it can handle 75 watts, and it's under $50.


----------



## trippybrowns

I have a MA100H, and I'm wanting to get a little more tone out of it. I'm specifically wanting it to break up earlier, and have a little more gain and warmth to it. Any suggestions??


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm not afraid of replacing the baffle board. I can rig up something better than Crate did easily. It's going to be hard bracing it enough that it doesn't resonate. I know why Fender built those amps so big, now. That's just too much signal in too small a space. I was actually considering a pair of Weber signature 8" alnicos. They are only $35 each. You're probably right, though. A good 10" speaker would be better with that much power.
> 
> What's your recommedation for a single 10" on a budget? The amp is fairly dark already.
> 
> EDIT: I've been looking at the Eminence Legend 105.8 - the clips sound good and it can handle 75 watts, and it's under $50.



That Legend is tailored after a Celestion 10-inch. The Copperhead is a brighter speaker with better bottom end. The Legend is out of gas at 100Hz so you should consider that. If your amp has a lot of balls, then this isn't a worry.

The Ragin' Cajun is another 70 to 5KHz speaker. I have used both of these quit a bit in custom 210 cabs, mainly for Fender amps. The Copperhead is overall the smoother of the two. The Ragin' Cajun is hotter in the high end from about 2KHz.


----------



## MartyStrat54

trippybrowns said:


> I have a MA100H, and I'm wanting to get a little more tone out of it. I'm specifically wanting it to break up earlier, and have a little more gain and warmth to it. Any suggestions??



I would try a low noise Tung-Sol in V1 and a high gain/low noise Shuguang in V2. You might even consider getting a high gain Tung-Sol for V1. I don't know how much gain you are after. Whatever you do, make sure you get a low noise for V1.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> That coating is on there because this tube glows. From NJ7P>Miniature type used as a glow-discharge voltage reference tube for use in dc power supplies. Requires miniature 7-contact socket.



Oh, neat.



RiverRatt said:


> Is the pedal based on the Matsumin Valvecaster? I thought about building that pedal sometime, IIRC it uses a 12AX7. You're right about starving the cathode. The tube technically shouldn't even work with so little voltage.



I actually stumbled across the valvecaster when researching for my project - I knew the tube shouldn't work at 9v, but I had a feeling it may create some cool sounds. I think the valvecaster uses a 12AT7 or AU7.



RiverRatt said:


> That's just the nature of those jacks. They are prone to fail. If you'll look at the metal strip that runs across the tip end of the jack, it'll be pushed up out of the casing a little bit, not allowing the tip to make contact. A quick fix for that is to push the strip back down, then bend the tabs 90° to the sides which will keep it from pushing back up. That fixed my Laney amp (which had jacks like those) until I sold it.



I'll try that before I look around for a new one, I guess.


----------



## trippybrowns

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would try a low noise Tung-Sol in V1 and a high gain/low noise Shuguang in V2. You might even consider getting a high gain Tung-Sol for V1. I don't know how much gain you are after. Whatever you do, make sure you get a low noise for V1.


I would love to get one of your tone packs Marty with the tubes you suggested in the preamp and poweramp sections. I have no idea how to bias though. I heard there is a way to do it without using a oscilliscope? I tried to contact you through the contact link on your page, but I don't use microsoft outlook. How do I contact you? And how do I order one of your tone packs? And, how could I go about biasing everything myself? I know, I have a lot of questions. Sorry buddy.


----------



## solarburn

trippybrowns said:


> I would love to get one of your tone packs Marty with the tubes you suggested in the preamp and poweramp sections. I have no idea how to bias though. I heard there is a way to do it without using a oscilliscope? I tried to contact you through the contact link on your page, but I don't use microsoft outlook. How do I contact you? And how do I order one of your tone packs? And, how could I go about biasing everything myself? I know, I have a lot of questions. Sorry buddy.



Pm(Private Message) him and he'll fill you in on the what and how's hehe.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Just Got My preamps from Marty in the Mail couple hours ago. Put them in, NOS BTW. Waited for the Wifey to go out.

Marty You're a Fucking Genius with TUBES.

The DSpLexi just got TONS plexier Really thick and Creamy, with that sustain that breaks up into that really good sounding feedback trailoff.

I'd kiss ya but then we'd have to start another thread.

THANX BRO.

 TWIN


----------



## TwinACStacks

really nice.

 twin


----------



## RiverRatt

What did you end up with, twin?


----------



## blues_n_cues

marty you got a pm.


----------



## TwinACStacks

RiverRatt said:


> What did you end up with, twin?



RR, Taking Marty's advice, Got a NOS Telefunken High Gain in V1, a NOS Raytheon Black Plate Regular Gain in V2, a NOS Sylvania Gray Plate in V3 (Cathode Follower) and a High Gain NOS Mullard in V4 (PI).

Sounds SO SWEET.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah. That phone conversation paid off. Glad you like the tone. The good thing about your rig is that it should function for at least 3 years. If you ever wear that high gain Mullard down in V4, you can use it in V1. I think the key to all of this success is the high gain in V4. Others may doubt this, but I think we have all discovered what a high gain in the PI will do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On a side note I got my Fat Strat in today. Looks good. I am gonna mess with it in a little bit. Really nice Fender case shaped sort of like a Les Paul case.


----------



## RiverRatt

TwinACStacks said:


> RR, Taking Marty's advice, Got a NOS Telefunken High Gain in V1, a NOS Raytheon Black Plate Regular Gain in V2, a NOS Sylvania Gray Plate in V3 (Cathode Follower) and a High Gain NOS Mullard in V4 (PI).
> 
> Sounds SO SWEET.
> 
> TWIN



Is your DSL stock? Mine is. When I got started with this preamp tube madness, I discovered that with the right tubes I didn't need any mods to sound great! 

I claim bragging rights on the Telefunken/Ray BP combo. I got a black plate from Marty, then I bought a Tele smooth plate from Greengirl on eBay and talked it up so well that Joe had to go out and try it. Next thing I know, he has like 8 of them. He let me try a couple of his ribbed plates, and I liked them OK but I think the smooth plate was, well, _smoother_. 

Get yourself a Matsushita to try in V1. If Marty's out of them, I've got a spare I can let you try out. They sound really nice in a DSL, too. Not quite as bright as the Tele with a little more grit.


----------



## thetragichero

i've gotten some stuff from greengirl on ebay too, and i've always been satisfied


----------



## TwinACStacks

RiverRatt said:


> Is your DSL stock? Mine is. When I got started with this preamp tube madness, I discovered that with the right tubes I didn't need any mods to sound great!
> 
> I claim bragging rights on the Telefunken/Ray BP combo. I got a black plate from Marty, then I bought a Tele smooth plate from Greengirl on eBay and talked it up so well that Joe had to go out and try it. Next thing I know, he has like 8 of them. He let me try a couple of his ribbed plates, and I liked them OK but I think the smooth plate was, well, _smoother_.
> 
> Get yourself a Matsushita to try in V1. If Marty's out of them, I've got a spare I can let you try out. They sound really nice in a DSL, too. Not quite as bright as the Tele with a little more grit.



MY DSL is MILES from Stock. Thanx for the offer RR, but I've got 3-4 white letter Matsushitas with slant getters, and a couple of Hitachis. I'm good to go with this setup for now.

 TWIN


----------



## RiverRatt

TwinACStacks said:


> MY DSL is MILES from Stock. Thanx for the offer RR, but I've got 3-4 white letter Matsushitas with slant getters, and a couple of Hitachis. I'm good to go with this setup for now.
> 
> TWIN



Sounds like you've got it covered. 

I know I sound like a Matsushita fanboy, but the only ones I've tried and not liked are the ones with the tall halo getter. 

I've been running my preamp lineup through that 5E3 I built. I just don't notice as much of a difference between tubes in a Fender. It seems like throwing a set of RCA black plate power tubes in it is the best thing you can do for the tone. I stuck a weak RFT 7025 in V1 and it sounds about the same as a GE or an Ei or whatever else I've tried (I didn't know that RFT tubes flash, or if I did I forgot it).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello all. I wanted to comment a little bit about running a higher gain tube in V1. Using my tester numbers, we see the following:

22-22 to 25-25 is medium gain.
26-26 to 27-27 is medium hot gain.
28-28 to 30-30 is high gain.

In the past, I have ran basically a 25-25 in V1 and a 29-29 or 30-30 in V2. However, this was using a TSL for a test bed. What I found with the JMP and JCM is that you can stick a hotter tube in V1. My feelings on this is that you should run what is comfortable for the amp. It is all determined by the type of preamp circuit the tube is in. This may not apply to every amp, but I have personally found that my old school amps are really happy with a 28-28 in V1. I currently have DARIO MINI WATT tubes in V1 in the JMP and JCM. Both of these tubes are close to being 28-28.

What I found is that in the JMP, it is very sensitive to tube changes. It loves a stout tube in V1 and of course a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. (Please note only one half of the V2 12AX7 is used for gain.) This is why I feel the tubes need to be high gain. You only have so many gain stages and you need to get the most out of them. 

The difference between a 25-25 and a 28-28 resulted in way more crunch at lower volume settings. The clean is still highly usable. I used to get way too caught up in how clean "clean" should be. In a live setting, the amp is fine. What you gain with having high gain tubes in the amp negates what you loose in the clean sound area.

If you have a Marshall with three preamp tubes, remember one is the PI. That only leaves two tube to deal with. I recommend using the best tubes you can buy. 

One other thing. I think most of the regulars here are running a high gain tube in the PI. I have a high gain PI tube in all of my amps. Regardless of what anyone else says, I think a high gain PI tube opens up the amp and allows it to be the beast it is. Now when I say high gain, I mean even higher than high gain. I am running lopsided tubes like a 33-38 or a 37-39. Again, if you hear that you need a balanced tube in the PI, this is hog shit. You will get a better tone running a high gain, lopsided PI tube than a balanced one.

Your amp is basically generating an asymmetrical sine wave. A lopsided PI will help enhance this. An asymmetrical sine wave is rich in even harmonics. This is what makes for a sweet, singing type of sustain.

If you have any questions, please post or send me a PM.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's really strange how we tend to parallel each other in regard to taste in tubes. You realize that me, you and Joe have all been creeping up the gain ladder for the last year. When I got the Raytheon JRP's tested by you I thought that they surely had too much gain for V1 and V2. I've gradually shifted over to a 28 to 30 Matsushita in V1 and that 36-ish JRP in V2. I moved my 29-30 Raytheon black plate to V4 and I think this is the best sounding setup yet. I used to think I was killing the headroom in my amp running high-gainers in V1-V2, but I've come to realize that I can roll the gain on the amp or the volume on my guitar back a little and get the tone of a low-gain tube and have plenty of headroom and still have a load of gain on-tap when I need it. 

The problem is, all the high gain tubes I've had before were Chinese or Russian, and they just sound more like cardboard the more gain you dial in. I think this clouded my thinking gain-wise. The stuff I'm running now is punchy as hell when I want it to be, or jangly clean, or creamy overdrive, but it never has that harsh, pushed-too-hard sound that high-gain CP tubes have. My moment of revelation happened when I realized that high gain and distortion are not the same thing. I've had plenty of tube amps before, but it took a real Marshall to make me understand about gain and dynamics and controlling the amp with my hands on a guitar, not the gain knob.

I know one thing for sure, you will force yourself to become a better play better if you rely less on distortion and more on gain. You can't get away with the sloppy shit when every nuance of your playing comes through crystal-clear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well spoken Alan. I agree with you 100 percent. I know there is a limit to what I can stick into a gain slot. Too much is just too much. However, finding that perfect amount of gain that the circuit will accept, just means that in the future, I will know what I need to pop into my amp. 

And a DSL/TSL circuit is more gain oriented. That's what they were designed for. A guy just has to roll some tubes of varying gain to see what the magic number is. I always go back to Josh trying that ICBM (35-35) in V2 of his TSL. It had more gain than the circuit could handle.

Here in a while, I am going to see what happens when I stick a very high gain Telefunken in V2. Say a 29-29 in V1 and a 34-36 in V2. Note that the 34 is the gain side and the 36 would be the cathode follower. I just feel an older Marshall can handle these stouter tubes. I do know that I can go too high and it will feedback or howl, but I would like to know what it is so I can bring it down a couple of notches.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of JOSH, I haven't seen him around in a while. Anyone know what's up with him?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well now...almost 24 hours and not a single post. Wow! I may have to start giving away stuffed bears over here.

If you are cruising through, feel free to ask any question. We like tube questions, but we are also good with mom's and girlfriend's too.

12AX7's RULE!


----------



## MM54

Here's a question, I actually was looking for this thread on the second page to ask it 

For Hi-fi purposes of driving a stereo power amp, would it make sense to use one triode of a, say, 12AU7 for the left channel and the other for the right, or would there be a lot of bleed or other bad stuff?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess I'm not following you on this. If your amp came with a 12AX7, then that's what you should use. I would never recommend a 12AU7 unless the amp specifically asks for it. The gain of a 12AU7 is 17 and the gain of a 12AX7 is 100. Big, big difference.

Most HiFi amps only use one 12AX7 per channel. This gives you both a primary and a secondary gain channel in one tube.

Even modern tube amps usually just have one 12AX7. Two gain stages are all you need to drive the power tubes to a clean, full output.

If this didn't answer your question, then ask again.


----------



## MM54

So you would need more than one triode (even with a 12ax7) to drive the power tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Huge score today guys! More when I get home. Too much stuff for the BlackBerry!!


----------



## solarburn

Well I just had some "fun" land on my doorstep all the way from Kans-ass!

The guru of the "Crystal Lattice" sent me some hot ass...I mean glass to roll in me amps. Oooh I'm xcited mwahahahaha!(evil laugh).

Just to let you know what kind of ass...I mean glass I'll tell ya's: All 12AX7's

1. Mini-watt(HG)=high gain
2. Lorenz(tell me she's a naughty girl & not a feminine dood...)medium gain
3. RCA with a "D" getter(HG)
4. Mullard(SG)"stoned gain" its so high...

And last but not least a Mullard GZ34 rectumfriar for my Monza.

You may all take a short snort of sumpt'n strong that burns all the way down to celebrate my festivities. I'm trying not to run naked through the house yelling "juicy mids! I has em'!!!!!"


----------



## solarburn

Where the frick is our homey Josh!!!!?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Huge score today guys! More when I get home. Too much stuff for the BlackBerry!!



I can't wait to hear about this. Must be a major score.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I just had some "fun" land on my doorstep all the way from Kans-ass!
> 
> The guru of the "Crystal Lattice" sent me some hot ass...I mean glass to roll in me amps. Oooh I'm xcited mwahahahaha!(evil laugh).
> 
> You may all take a short snort of sumpt'n strong that burns all the way down to celebrate my festivities. I'm trying not to run naked through the house yelling "juicy mids! I has em'!!!!!"



Enjoy that ass, err glass and let me know what you think. Every rectifier brand has it's own soul. Let me know if the Mullard is soulful with a nice SAG.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Where the frick is our homey Josh!!!!?



Funny, he came on for just a short while last night, but did not stop over here. 

I hope he is okay.


----------



## solarburn

Maybe he's found amp utopia and is stuck in some sort of tone nirvana and can't quite reach the keys to say anything for fear of falling out of tonal bliss...

Ya think?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't wait to hear about this. Must be a major score.



I just stopped in the office to pick up part of the stash and thought I'd check in. I don't even know what I have yet. I picked up a MINT Ampeg 2x12 guitar amp, a Harmony 535 all-tube bass amp and cabinet, and a bunch of loose tubes for $100 (also a Silvertone SS bass head). The Ampeg is a Gemini something-or-another. Don't know about the tubes - I know there's two or three 6L6's, a Telefunken ribbed plate 12AX7, a 12BZ7, a 5R4 rectifier tube, and several others. I'll get some pics when I get home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Maybe he's found amp utopia and is stuck in some sort of tone nirvana and can't quite reach the keys to say anything for fear of falling out of tonal bliss...
> 
> Ya think?



Well, I will keep my eyes open for him. He very well could be tearing it up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I just stopped in the office to pick up part of the stash and thought I'd check in. I don't even know what I have yet. I picked up a MINT Ampeg 2x12 guitar amp, a Harmony 535 all-tube bass amp and cabinet, and a bunch of loose tubes for $100 (also a Silvertone SS bass head). The Ampeg is a Gemini something-or-another. Don't know about the tubes - I know there's two or three 6L6's, a Telefunken ribbed plate 12AX7, a 12BZ7, a 5R4 rectifier tube, and several others. I'll get some pics when I get home.



Dude, where are you finding all of this stuff? I'm getting jealous. That 535 head can probably be changed over to a guitar head with some different cap values.

The Gemini was an amp made in the 60's and then they had the Gemini II that went into the early 70's. Here's what the clean and reverb sound like. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi5d8ezLBB8]YouTube - SRV riff with Ampeg Gemini I[/ame]

Here is some more info. Does it look like this one? It says the power tubes are 7591A's.






GGJaguar's Guitarium and Ampeteria 1965 Ampeg Gemini I


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Gemini II used the 7868 large NOVAR power tubes like in my Bogen amp. Came with a 15-inch JBL MI speaker (D-130).

GGJaguar's Guitarium and Ampeteria 1966 Ampeg Gemini II

Until I get further info, someone may have changed out the 7591A's to 6L6's if you have the earlier model.


----------



## MartyStrat54

God they made a lot of different models in a short time span, but they are all tube. Here is a schematic for what I believe is your amp. Two 6L6GC's and a 7199. Don't really know what the 7199 is doing???







Ampeg G-15 Gemini II Schematic - KBapps.com


----------



## MartyStrat54

It could also be a later V22 which has the same tubes as the one above.

Ampeg classic tube schematics here.

Ampeg Heaven Amp Schematics - Schematic Amplifier Echotwin Echojet Gemini Jet Mercury Portaflex Reverbrocket SVT Reissue


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Harmony (Valco) 535.

One just sold on EBAY. It was a head with a large silver front panel. It came with the original 212 cab. Selling price $342.

Not much info available on this amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here you go.

Ampeg GV-22: 2 - 6L6, 1 - 7199 (looks like the PI on the schematic - I found that one, too), 4 - 12AX7, 1 - 6CG7. The 6L6's are just like those MIJ 6L6's I bought awhile back, the rest of the tubes are RCA. Has Reverb/Vibrato/Tremolo and sounds like late '60's - early '70's Stones/Faces. I know I've seen a picture of Keef with this amp and a Les Paul Custom. Fantastic break-up with the boosts engaged. May need caps - it's kinda noisy. May just need playing awhile.











Harmony 535: 2 - RCA 6L6, 5 - 12AX7 (4 RCA, 1 GE). I don't think you have to change anything to make this a guitar amp. It's got reverb and tremolo and sounds pretty good. Nowhere near the dirt as the Ampeg. I haven't got the matching cabinet home yet. It's still at the office. Check out the dual side-getters on the 6L6's.











And here's the tubes:






Left to right: RCA 6L6, MIJ 6L6, Sylvania coke bottle 6L6, 5Z3 4-pin full wave rectifier, RCA 5R4 rectifier, Tele 12AX7/ECC83 ribbed plate <>, Philco (RCA) 12BZ7, RCA 6CG7.






This is the RCA set from the Harmony. I didn't pull the Ampeg tubes, but I think they are all RCA. I may check them later to be sure. One 12AX7 has one of those wraparound shields on it.

Not a bad $100 spent, I think. I'm having a nice glass of Valpolicella and a bowl of nice pipe tobacco and just looking at everything right now. That Ampeg is a great find. It's only putting out about 30 watts and is way more aggressive than my Fender Super with the two 6L6's. I was hoping it'd have a tube rectifier, but you can't win 'em all.

How do I find this stuff? I started putting a classified ad in my newspaper under the "Wanted" section asking for any old guitar tube amps, tube hi-fi sets and phonographs or any tubes or tube-related equipment. So far I've gotten that huge box of mostly worthless tubes that the 6V6's, the Mullard GZ34 and Matt's 12BA6 was in, an old 1940's Zenith console radio (haven't picked that one up yet - pretty much worthless guitar-wise), and today's find. The chick I bought the amps from today said they were her dad's amps and when he died her brother threw away a triple-drawer box of tubes. She just wanted to get them out of her house.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That Ampeg was worth the money all by itself. It has a hum control that you can play around with. These can get corroded over time. Naturally a bad V1 can be an issue. I believe reading up on this that the speakers are CTS. Too bad it wasn't a deluxe model as they had either JBL or Altec's for speakers. Boy that would have been a find.

Does that have a cathodyne phase inverter? I mean a 7199 isn't a double triode. In many cases its a power tube.

Well I am excited for you. Look out, I think your wife has something she wants to say.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I am excited for you. Look out, I think your wife has something she wants to say.



She already said it! 

It went something like "You are going to have to sell some of this shit!", and "I can't even walk across the room anymore!" and then there were a few expletives thrown around. I just can't make her see the aesthetic beauty of half a room full of tube amps and cabinets.


----------



## RiverRatt

I forgot to post this jewel. If I hadn't just handed out $100 for the amps, I would have liked to have this piece just because it looked so cool. It reminded me of those old fortune telling machines.


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## MM54

MM54 said:


> So you would need more than one triode (even with a 12ax7) to drive the power tubes?



. (Referring back to my hi-fi question)


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, the phase inverter on Marshalls uses both triodes. Each triode drives a separate or separate pair of power tubes. Picture a sine wave on top of another sine wave so that when one is at the bottom of the wave the other is at the top. When you lay these two waves on top of each other, one is rising while the other is falling, creating a level output signal.


----------



## MM54

But that's because for push-pull you need the out-of-phase signals to each side of the pairing.

If it were a single-ended setup, would one triode not be enough to drive the tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, you are correct. Well, actually it's a bit more complicated than that, but you'll need to get one of the techs to give you the math behind it.


----------



## MM54

Alright, that's what I thought, but earlier Marty said something that was very confusing and seemed leaning towards one triode not being able to drive a tube.

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

A single-ended (SE) amp uses a driver tube. The preamp signal is fed into the driver and the driver boosts the signal for the power tube. Some SE amps use two tubes and are call a push-pull SE amp. They require a phase inverter.

Something I learned a while back. Some of the old guitar amps used a cathodyne phase inverter. It has unity gain of 1 to 1, but only uses one triode in a 12AX7. This allows one side to be used as an additional gain stage and then the phase inverter is on the other triode.

Remember, a 12AX7 is a twin triode tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> But that's because for push-pull you need the out-of-phase signals to each side of the pairing.
> 
> If it were a single-ended setup, would one triode not be enough to drive the tube?



Just so we are clear. A SE amp with one power tube gets the full sine wave signal delivered via a driver tube. There is no PI.


----------



## MM54

Yes, and thus one 12AX7 could drive both channels in a dual monoblock single-ended stereo power amp.

My confusion has peaked and I believe been resolved


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Alright, that's what I thought, but earlier Marty said something that was very confusing and seemed leaning towards one triode not being able to drive a tube.
> 
> Thanks



If you could quote me, then I could clarify myself. I may have said something that is incorrect.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I tried to get this going in my Strat thread, but for whatever reason. it's stuck. Anyway, here is some pic's of the Strat. Please note that it does not have S-1 switching. The seller copied and pasted info on the Fender Deluxe and put this in his listing. I am hoping to shave some money of the selling price. One of the reasons I got it was the S-1 feature. I am taking it to my guitar tech on Wednesday (up in St. Joe, Missouri) to have him look at the neck. This guitar sat in a case for about seven years and I want to make sure there are no neck problems. Joe, as far as the neck to body fit? It is excellent. One of the best I've seen. Also, the seller said this was a 2001, but the sticker on the tremolo cover says 2002.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Here's some pic's as promised of the 2001 Fat Strat Deluxe. I need some help though. This Deluxe did not come with S-1 switching. It was listed as having this option. I paid $750 for the guitar. What would the S-1 be worth off of the selling price?
> 
> Color: Cherry Sunburst on Ash.
> Neck: Maple with Rosewood. Abalone dot inlays.
> Hardware: Chrome, with locking Schaller tuners and LSR nut.
> Pickups; H-S-S, Cobalt noiseless.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have a comment about what I should ask off of the price for the S-1 switching, let me know.


----------



## MM54

Very nice Marty! I really like the dark rosewood fingerboard. It looks darker than usual for some reason.

(To stay on topic of tubes, I did a quick check this morning*, and I have 25 12AX7's... I need to sell some )

*I'm planning to put together a list sometime soon on the computer to know all the tubes I have so I can sell some (if they're worth anything) and if anyone around here needs an odd-ball tube I'll know what I have.


----------



## AxlOz

here's a Q for you tube buffs. I'm starting to like the tones that I'm getting out of some current chinese 12ax7's. They have a real open-ness to them thats almost hollow, and a huge amount of brightness. Some (many) get nasty and shrill but occasionally there's some good ones.
What brand/make of NOS tubes would exhibit similar characteristics?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well although some NOS tubes are bright, it would be difficult to compare one to a Shuguang Chinese tube. A Telefunken can be bright if the circuit it is in is bright. Same with a Bugle Boy by Amperex. 

You brought up a good point. You can buy 10 Chinese tubes and maybe have 2 or 3 that are really good. The others will be noisy, have a dull tone or can be shrill.

I know lots of guys who love the Chinese tubes, because if you get a couple of good ones, they are perfect for high gain. Is this what you need? High gain?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Very nice Marty! I really like the dark rosewood fingerboard. It looks darker than usual for some reason.



Thanks Matt. If the neck checks out on Wednesday, then I think it will be a wicked guitar.

I'll send you a PM if I'm interested in any of your tubes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I tried to get this going in my Strat thread, but for whatever reason. it's stuck. Anyway, here is some pic's of the Strat. Please note that it does not have S-1 switching. The seller copied and pasted info on the Fender Deluxe and put this in his listing. I am hoping to shave some money of the selling price. One of the reasons I got it was the S-1 feature. I am taking it to my guitar tech on Wednesday (up in St. Joe, Missouri) to have him look at the neck. This guitar sat in a case for about seven years and I want to make sure there are no neck problems. Joe, as far as the neck to body fit? It is excellent. One of the best I've seen. Also, the seller said this was a 2001, but the sticker on the tremolo cover says 2002.



Good to hear the neck fits well into the body. Hopefully everything checks out other than the S-1 switching. Keep me posted on what your guy says about it. Its a looker!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm sort of puzzled over the neck and the serial number. According to the S/N, it is a 2001. However, I pulled the tremolo cover on the back and they Fender shop wrote on their with a black magic marker, "Neck sticker." Well the neck is January 2002. The body is May 2002. WTF? Over?


----------



## AxlOz

i've seen this before, there's mismatch in dates on fender parts. I think its just coz they make the parts separately, then match them up with each other down the track. It tells me that the neck was finished in late 2001, hence the 2001 serial. But then it mustn't have been matched with a body till later in 2002. Probabaly got either put aside to make a higher end guitar, or it just got lost in the factory mix! I'd only be worried if the body was a squire or something and they'd just put the good neck on and sold it as the real deal..

In regards to my chinese tube post above, I'm not specifically after high gain, more interested in clarity, brightness, and an 'open' tone. 

I'm doing some rolling in my bogner amp and it seems to be most happy with chinese new prod. tubes.. I tried a TAD and it was nasty and shrill, loud though, so its in the PI slot atm. I also tried a ruby 12ax7AC5HG which was ~ok, and a simple '12AX7B - CHINA' (in white print) tube, which i think is either an 8th or 9th gen shuguang. This was the best of the 3, and reminds me of the sovtek 12ax7WC, but with a little more bight and colour to it.


----------



## nemo_kost

Hi, I got quite lost trying to follow this thread, I have just a quick question, hoping not to go off-topic. 
What do you think about this "NOS" tubes? Do you think they can be "trusted"?
After reading here and there in the forum about NOS tubes, I was thinking about give it a try for my JCM 900 4100. I'm pretty a rookie on the subject, maybe you can just give me a quick tip.

2x MULLARD ECC83 12AX7 CV4004 M8137 Yellow Printing NOS bei eBay.de: Röhren (endet 01.08.10 18:05:44 MESZ)

They're just 2 in this auction and in my head there are 3 preamp tubes of course, do I need to buy matched tubes also for the pre section?

Thx a lot and sorry if you already answered this questione 100 times!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello Nemo. Glad to have you on board. Looking at those Mullards, I would have to say that they are used, but someone had tube boxes. I say this, because the pins are not as straight as they should be. It's like someone used them, pulled them, put them in their boxes and forgot about them. 

Not to say they aren't good tubes. According to his testing, they are very nice. I see that this listing is going into August. These will probably rise in price right before the auction ends.

The third preamp tube in your amp is the phase inverter. Any good tube will work, even current production. 

The amp you have will benefit slightly with better tubes in V1 and V2. If you are new to the forum, there is a mod were you just put a guitar cord in the FX loop. This supposedly tightens the sound up. Do a search for it. If you can't find it, I know someone with a 4100 that will show me where it is.


----------



## MM54




----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Matt, I should have thought of you. I contacted El Jeffe, but I haven't heard back from him. Anyway, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanx, Bro.


----------



## seeker of rock

I ended up getting a second mullard b-code for my 2204 instead of the raytheon black plate, just because the price was pretty decent ($18). It is an I63 B5D4, apparently the first production year of the I63 from the I61s. Haven't plugged it in yet, but probably tonight.


----------



## BluesRocker

HOLY TELE-FUNKEN

Thanks Marty for addicting me to the Telefunken Ribbed Plate for V1. Very stupendous tube!!!! I am really at loss of words.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I tried to get this going in my Strat thread, but for whatever reason. it's stuck. Anyway, here is some pic's of the Strat. Please note that it does not have S-1 switching. The seller copied and pasted info on the Fender Deluxe and put this in his listing. I am hoping to shave some money of the selling price. One of the reasons I got it was the S-1 feature. I am taking it to my guitar tech on Wednesday (up in St. Joe, Missouri) to have him look at the neck. This guitar sat in a case for about seven years and I want to make sure there are no neck problems. Joe, as far as the neck to body fit? It is excellent. One of the best I've seen. Also, the seller said this was a 2001, but the sticker on the tremolo cover says 2002.



That is a real beauty Marty. Way to go on a nice acquisition!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Where the frick is our homey Josh!!!!?





MartyStrat54 said:


> Funny, he came on for just a short while last night, but did not stop over here.
> 
> I hope he is okay.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Maybe he's found amp utopia and is stuck in some sort of tone nirvana and can't quite reach the keys to say anything for fear of falling out of tonal bliss...
> 
> Ya think?





MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I will keep my eyes open for him. He very well could be tearing it up.



Sorry guys...

No internet at home anymore. I can get on w/ my phone, but the forum's website doesn't always work quite right. But...

I do get emails on my phone w/ all of your posts, so I have been keeping up as much as possible.

Ya'll doin' ok these days?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sorry guys...
> 
> No internet at home anymore. I can get on w/ my phone, but the forum's website doesn't always work quite right. But...
> 
> I do get emails on my phone w/ all of your posts, so I have been keeping up as much as possible.
> 
> Ya'll doin' ok these days?



Ok...that explains it. I'm glad it wasn't anything serious and we lost ya hehe. Things are getting tight money wise here and losing internet is always a possibility for me. I don't know why you don't have it anymore but we have our moments here in Wetville bummed to say. At least I have phone numbers in case I have to make cuts on shit. It ebbs and flows whether I do or not.

Glad I still get to play though. I'd go crazy with out that fix...:Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

bluesrocker said:


> holy tele-funken
> 
> thanks marty for addicting me to the telefunken ribbed plate for v1. Very stupendous tube!!!! I am really at loss of words.




funken a rightz!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> funken a rightz!



You were right Joe. I grabbed one of those and a SLY high gain GP for the PI slot. and WOW the VM is a beast now.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok...that explains it. I'm glad it wasn't anything serious and we lost ya hehe. Things are getting tight money wise here and losing internet is always a possibility for me. I don't know why you don't have it anymore but we have our moments here in Wetville bummed to say. At least I have phone numbers in case I have to make cuts on shit. It ebbs and flows whether I do or not.
> 
> Glad I still get to play though. I'd go crazy with out that fix...:Ohno:



True enough on that one mate! I think things are getting tight for most of us these days, and not in a good way...  I'm just in the middle of a foreclosure, and things are moving along a lot faster than I had planned. Anyhoo... I've still got my axe and my amps, both of which they'll have to pry out of my cold dead hands, and I can keep up w/ you guys here as much as possible, so... It's all good. I guess...

I hope things don't get too tight for you mate. The forum just wouldn't be the same w/out ya!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> HOLY TELE-FUNKEN
> 
> Thanks Marty for addicting me to the Telefunken Ribbed Plate for V1. Very stupendous tube!!!! I am really at loss of words.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> funken a rightz!



Ya know, that could be a good advertising slogan... "Ribbed for pleasure..." Or has that already been taken?


----------



## solarburn

We do what we can as I can see you are too. What else...give up and pull the trigger? Not while I'm sober anyways. Besides someone has to protect my daughters from those creeps out there. You know...the ones that think like me when it comes to that one thing.

Good to hear you're still playing!!!!!!!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> You were right Joe. I grabbed one of those and a SLY high gain GP for the PI slot. and WOW the VM is a beast now.



Nice!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We do what we can as I can see you are too. What else...give up and pull the trigger? Not while I'm sober anyways. Besides someone has to protect my daughters from those creeps out there. You know...the ones that think like me when it comes to that one thing.
> 
> Good to hear you're still playing!!!!!!!



Amen bro. Ya just keep on lookin' out for yer family, and keep on rockin'. It'll all come out in the wash.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Nice!



Yeah, hit the boost or TS-9 and she gets REAL naughty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Make sure she keeps her panties on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Amen bro. Ya just keep on lookin' out for yer family, and keep on rockin'. It'll all come out in the wash.



Good to see ya here. I was hoping it wasn't anything serious. Hate to see you loose your NET service.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> funken a rightz!



Yeah I was wondering where you've been too. Did you guys know the Lisa signed on for about 30 minutes the other night? I think Alan was the only one she talked to or left a post for. She did post on one of my threads about my Strat, but I was long gone. 

Just so you know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> HOLY TELE-FUNKEN
> 
> Thanks Marty for addicting me to the Telefunken Ribbed Plate for V1. Very stupendous tube!!!! I am really at loss of words.



You're welcome. You've been a good customer and for this you have been awarded platinum status. Platinum status consists of receiving tubes to try out before you buy. (Joe has quadruple platinum status.)


----------



## nemo_kost

MartyStrat54 said:


> The amp you have will benefit slightly with better tubes in V1 and V2. If you are new to the forum, there is a mod were you just put a guitar cord in the FX loop. This supposedly tightens the sound up. Do a search for it. If you can't find it, I know someone with a 4100 that will show me where it is.



Hi Marty and thx for the answer. Sorry for the long time it took me to answer back!
So it basically means my amp won't be much affected by getting some NOS tubes... Is it because of the way it's built (diode cliiping, etc, etc...)?

Anyway, I searched for the "mod" you were talking about, get some info here and there... Is it the same using some effects (delay, GE-7 and a DIY boost pedal I built) in the effect loop or has it a complete different result using a patch cord?
Thx again and sorry for the off-topic post, if it's going to raise some more questions I'll open up a new thread dedicated to this subject.


----------



## MM54

NOS tubes make a HUGE difference in the 4100/4500.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was wondering where you've been too. Did you guys know the Lisa signed on for about 30 minutes the other night? I think Alan was the only one she talked to or left a post for. She did post on one of my threads about my Strat, but I was long gone.
> 
> Just so you know.



Yeah I caught that. I checked her page to see when. It was a quickie run by. Busy girl. I thought we might have lost her too.

I've been a lil' busy around here too but I check in and see whats happening even though I don't have time to gab. I'll be rolling them tubes good Thursday and Friday(my days off)so I'll be reporting what I find.

Yeah those TF's are nice tubes in all 3 of my amps. I had to buy 5 of them right off cause I liked how they sounded and felt especially with a BP in the Marshall. I've got some more good ones to try and I'm afraid I'm going to want the whole group hehe. These I'm sure will have a positive impact. Looking forward to it plus I'm getting some mandated overtime in at work. I hate working a 16hr day but the money is helpful.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> Make sure she keeps her panties on.



There goes Marty using his reverse psychology.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> You're welcome. You've been a good customer and for this you have been awarded platinum status. Platinum status consists of receiving tubes to try out before you buy. (Joe has quadruple platinum status.)



Thanks! I might have to hit you up on what you an I discussed, may be a few days but I will let ya know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> NOS tubes make a HUGE difference in the 4100/4500.



I'll just let you in on what I know and what techs have told me. The 900 DR's are basically a hybrid amp. This means a solid state preamp and tube power section. What do you read into that? What am I missing? It's not a DSL/TSL preamp and it's not a JMP/JCM preamp. There are only three preamp tubes. As I said, V1 is "somewhat" in the preamp circuit and V2 is the Reverb Send and Return and V3 is the Phase Inverter.

Where are the tube gain stages?

For a 900 DR, I recommend a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and a couple of Sylvania Gray Plates for V2 and V3.

Matt, if you have additional information about this, please post it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I caught that. I checked her page to see when. It was a quickie run by. Busy girl. I thought we might have lost her too.
> 
> I've been a lil' busy around here too but I check in and see whats happening even though I don't have time to gab. I'll be rolling them tubes good Thursday and Friday(my days off)so I'll be reporting what I find.



Good to see you my friend. Yeah Lisa was like a ghost blowing through. I hope things are going well for you. Things are tight everywhere. Even for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> There goes Marty using his reverse psychology.



Well hell fella, where the hell you been? I wrote you off, thought you had got hooked on medicinal marijuana and found nirvana.

Good to see you back.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Matt, if you have additional information about this, please post it.



From what I know, V1 is a gain stage, however it is indeed after some diode clipping, which is inherently not the greatest decision Marshall made (Either way, I like the tone). Changing the tube there obviously doesn't make as much a difference as in most other amps, where the signal goes straight to the tube, but it does make quite a difference. It's not like it doesn't matter at all and is there for show.

I noticed when changing out V2 that it doesn't color tone as much as affect how much of a boost you get, ie more power and gain-ish-ness. I use reverb slightly, and have the FX loop jumped, so thus utilizing both triodes of that tube (Last I checked one of them is reverb and the other is the loop).

As you said, v3 is a the PI and doesn't make a huge difference. I have a 1960 RCA Slant-Top in it and V2 because I have a bunch laying around and I expect a NOS tube to last longer than CP.

Now maybe I'm more insane that I thought, but the tubes really do seem to have a significant effect, mainly in V1, and in V2 if your loop is jumped.

I really do get sick of people bashing the 900's (not saying you were, just venting since I'm on the topic). It's the one thing I can't stand on the forum, people constantly insulting eachother's opinions, preferences, and investments.

Anyways.

Some time I may get a Raytheon from you for V1 to see how it is, they seem to be quite popular. Right now I'm organizing a ton of stuff and need to make room on my shelf for more tubes before I get any more


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you can go and check, I have never bashed anyone's Marshall. I have bashed Crates and similar amps. In fact, I have defended 900 owners on this forum multiple times. Hey, Billy Gibbons toured with DR's for like seven years.

Yes, I stated that V1 was used somewhat in the preamp. I do know it is after the diode clippers. I'm wondering if both triodes are used as a gain tube?

Actually, the 900DR is similar to some of the Blackstar micro amps. The 5W model has clipper diodes and V1 is immersed in the circuit at just the right spot, so it is boosting the SS signal, but adding some tube flavor. The engineers at Blackstar used to work for Marshall, in case you didn't know. I think their 20W amp is somewhat similar as it only uses two 12AX7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, Marty, while you're here...

I've been giving that Ampeg Gemini a workout the last few nights. Lots of versatility, no real weak spots. It fits nicely in between my Marshall and Fender tone. I've noticed that there's a raunchy tone that pops up sometimes. I thought it was a speaker, but it doesn't do it all the time. It's much worse if I have the bass dimed, but if I back it off until it goes away completely the amp is a little thin. The sound only happens on the extreme lower range of the guitar - like from low E up to A. If I play an E then palm-mute it, I get this really loud WOW kind of sound. Do I need to be looking at the tubes/electronics, or have I got a bad speaker? It's loaded with the original CTS 12" drivers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Also, I've been digging for info and the 7199 is indeed the phase inverter in this amp. It's unity gain and the pentode section acts as a voltage amplifier while the triode section is a cathodyne PI as I believe you guessed originally. A strange choice, but apparently it's borrowed straight from the RCA receiving tube manual. Apparently the 5E3 Deluxe circuit uses this same setup except with one triode of a 12AX7 as the voltage amp and the other triode is tied to the coupling caps on the plate and cathode. 

I don't think I have a spare 7199 anywhere. I'm about to go through my selection of castaways again and make sure... I seem to remember a tube very similar to this that I got out of an old Japanese TV set.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, I feel that all the symptoms may be pointing to some sort of rectifier issue. This has a tube rectifier, doesn't it? When you dime the bass, you are asking the amp to make the most power, or the potential for the most power. Playing the low E or A and once again the amp will want to make the most power. Since the amp is working fine for the most part, I would rule out any of the hard components. It could very well be a weak rectifier tube, weak preamp tube or weak power tube. If you are using the original tubes, well, there's a good chance one or more may be weak.

Yes, that's an interesting use of a 7199. It is more common (as with the thousands of Fender's) to use a 12AX7. I feel the 7199 is more capable to do the job as it is just physically larger. I wish I had one to give you.

Remember to check all your tubes. If the problem still persists, then it could be something like a cap or resistor. I doubt if it is the speaker, but if you can isolate them and play something bassy through them and see if they both perform the same.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's bridge-rectified. I'll fool aound with it some more this weekend an see if I can isolate the problem. THanks for the tips.

Did I tell you that the chassis in this thing is shock mounted? The entire chassis has almost a full 1" of travel, and the reverb pan has a lock on it for travel.

I'll keep an eye open for some 7199's. Apparently they are pretty rare and more than a little expensive. I've still got a big box of oddball stuff here that I need to dig through just to make sure I don't have one. I've found several that look close enough for jazz, but there are no direct subs - it has to say 7199 on it or you have to rewire the socket. I've never used a 7199 before so it's not one of the numbers that I would normally look for.


----------



## MM54

Again Marty, I wasn't saying you insulted the 900's, in fact I know you stick up for all Marshalls. I was just venting while on topic of it


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Again Marty, I wasn't saying you insulted the 900's, in fact I know you stick up for all Marshalls. I was just venting while on topic of it



Not a problem Matt. I knew you weren't directing it at me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've never used a 7199 before so it's not one of the numbers that I would normally look for.



Same here with me. Of all the amps that I have bought and sold, I think I only had two or three with 7199's.

Now if I remember right, Wurlitzer had a long running chassis with two or three amp channels on it and it ran 7199's. I mean this tube could be weak and cause some volume/tone drop.

I'll keep my eyes open for any that are around.


----------



## racko7566

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well hell fella, where the hell you been? I wrote you off, thought you had got hooked on medicinal marijuana and found nirvana.
> 
> Good to see you back.



Thanks, glad to be back. Was wondering Marty, is the blackplate the amperex and the two greyplates I got from you a Martimus maximus pack? If so, gonna have to change my sig. I was gonna check with you on another amperex, leaving my amp on when passed out doesnt do them any good lol.

And to Solar, went and got myself another quad of 6ca7eh's. I really love those tubes. Hope these last longer than the first. But Im willing to deal with early death for the sound and feel I like.

Rock on guys and gals.


----------



## solarburn

racko7566 said:


> Thanks, glad to be back. Was wondering Marty, is the blackplate the amperex and the two greyplates I got from you a Martimus maximus pack? If so, gonna have to change my sig. I was gonna check with you on another amperex, leaving my amp on when passed out doesnt do them any good lol.
> 
> And to Solar, went and got myself another quad of 6ca7eh's. I really love those tubes. Hope these last longer than the first. But Im willing to deal with early death for the sound and feel I like.
> 
> Rock on guys and gals.



Good to see ya stop by. Those tubes sound good. I found another set I really like too. The mids in them are rich. Really great for the rock stuff I like to play. Think ACDC...anyways they are the GT 34M's. Rated at 1-3 on their rating system. My rating system for the DSL as far as CP power tubes goes is this:

1. 34M's
2. 6CA7's
3. 34L's


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm digging on that ribbed plate Tele that came with the Ampeg deal - I think I got more excited when I saw that in a baggie in the back of the amp than I did for the amp itself. It looks and sounds a lot more like a Philips tube than my smooth plate Tele. I think I'm going to pull all the RCA 12AX7A's and the RCA 6L6's out of that Harmony amp and give it the Russian treatment and sell it. It has no gain to speak of, even fully cranked. Besides, my Fender thinks those tubes belong in it.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I'm digging on that ribbed plate Tele that came with the Ampeg deal - I think I got more excited when I saw that in a baggie in the back of the amp than I did for the amp itself. It looks and sounds a lot more like a Philips tube than my smooth plate Tele. I think I'm going to pull all the RCA 12AX7A's and the RCA 6L6's out of that Harmony amp and give it the Russian treatment and sell it. It has no gain to speak of, even fully cranked. Besides, my Fender thinks those tubes belong in it.



The ribbed tele I got from Marty owns the 2 Philips I got from him. My opinion though. And they do sound DAMN good!


----------



## solarburn

Well I'm rolling my pack from Marty as usual I want the whole bunch. The Lorenz sounds really good in V1 of the NT and I really had no idea how this tube would do. Anyways they all feel/sound good in V1 so far. Still have more combinations to try...


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> The ribbed tele I got from Marty owns the 2 Philips I got from him. My opinion though. And they do sound DAMN good!



I think the ribbed Tele is a little dirtier than the smooth plate - it's a great-sounding tube for sure. I think it's a pretty strong tube, too. I'm about to have to send Marty a batch to test. I've got too many unknowns again.

Marty, how's this for icing on the cake? The big expensive Ampeg had CTS speakers in it - look at what was in that big-ass Harmony 535 2x12 cab. I think I see a transplant in their future. If I'm reading the codes right, they are Jensen C12P 25 watters from 1968? Any way to tell the resistance from any of those codes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are eight ohm speakers. I didn't think you would like the Harmony. They never did anything for me. They're cool to look at in an odd sort of way. Get that thing on EBAY. Sell it as is. EBAY's new rules are now in effect. The sellers has to use a standard list and be more accurate with his description.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> And to Solar, went and got myself another quad of 6ca7eh's. I really love those tubes. Hope these last longer than the first. But Im willing to deal with early death for the sound and feel I like.
> 
> Rock on guys and gals.



I actually bought a quad of those for my TSL100 and for my JMP 2203.

Oh, since you been gone a bit, I bought two old school amps and had Jon Wilder mod them. One is a 2204 modded into a Dual Classic and the other is a voice modded JMP 2203 with point to point board.

I am running NOS Sylvania 6CA7's in the 2204. I found the NOS to be more articulate at lower volume. When you start to crank them, they both start sounding more similar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racko7566 said:


> Was wondering Marty, is the blackplate the amperex and the two greyplates I got from you a Martimus maximus pack? If so, gonna have to change my sig.



Yes sir, that is a four tube deluxe Tone Pack. They are generally good for more than 2,000 hours.:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I'm rolling my pack from Marty as usual I want the whole bunch. The Lorenz sounds really good in V1 of the NT and I really had no idea how this tube would do. Anyways they all feel/sound good in V1 so far. Still have more combinations to try...



And you do it oh so well. You're a tube rolling pro. When Joe rolls, tube freaks listen.:cool2::cool2:


----------



## RiverRatt

How could you tell they are 8-ohm? From what I've read, these are some sweet Jensen ceramics and were used in the BF DR and have a nice, early breakup. They should be perfect for the Ampeg. They look like they are going for $150-$200 bucks a pair on eBay.

I've dug through every preamp tube I have in the house (and that's a lot) and there's not a single 7199 among them although I did scare up another couple more 6CG7's. I don't like going without a spare tube for a gigging amp. I was going to carry it to combo rehearsal tonight but I skipped it. This heat down here has me wiped out. Plus, after a week of staring at a computer monitor, I feel like I have icepicks in my eyes and I'm having the kind of visual distortions that you get with a couple of tabs off a really good sheet of blotter. We're talking vapor trails, halos around lights and sensitivity to bright light.

Therefore, I have an appointment tomorrow with an optometrist. I haven't had my eyes checked in at least 10 years, and that was at a free booth at the county fair. I had to start using my wife's reading glasses when I was putting together that amp. Getting old sucks. My eyes have alway been great, but now apparently I can only focus properly on things that are about 2 feet away. I shudder to think what kind of prescription eyewear I'm going to come out of there with. If I have to use bifocals I'm going to scream. I guess it's time to start stocking up on denture cream, bermuda shorts and over-the-calf black socks with sandals.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I used to recone and I have a huge manual with all the numbers off of thousands of speakers. It tells what the nominal impedance of the speaker is and breaks down the parts. So yeah, it's a quality Jensen and they look to be in really good condition. As I said, you made some really good scores.

As far as bad eyes and black socks? Yeah I have had to deal with that. My eyes did not start going until I was 46. Then it was reading glasses and that is what I still am dealing with. My eyes are fine except for close up focusing. I keep telling myself it could be worse.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I used to recone and I have a huge manual with all the numbers off of thousands of speakers. It tells what the nominal impedance of the speaker is and breaks down the parts. So yeah, it's a quality Jensen and they look to be in really good condition. As I said, you made some really good scores.
> 
> As far as bad eyes and black socks? Yeah I have had to deal with that. My eyes did not start going until I was 46. Then it was reading glasses and that is what I still am dealing with. My eyes are fine except for close up focusing. I keep telling myself it could be worse.



Yes, I know you were a speaker guru before you were a tube guru. Thanks for the info. 

I'm leaning toward the noise in the Ampeg being the right-side speaker. The left is clearly the dominant speaker, and the right is usually only head with the distortion/wow stuff.

These will definitely go into the Ampeg. They are probably very close to what Ampeg should have used originally.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well like I said, they offered JBL and Altecs in their cabs. Imagine if you had gotten two Altec 417's? I would have been oh so jealous.

Did you say what the output was of the Ampeg? Is it a 50 watt? I know it's pretty stout.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bifocals it is. Damn. 

AFAIK, the Ampeg is putting out around 40 watts. That's about the same that my Super is putting out with two 6L6's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bifocals. Oh boy.

Hey what's the difference between 40 watts and 50 watts? Maybe a little over 1dB? That's still loud as hell. My 401 with the alnico Red Fang is nasty loud. It is a 103dB speaker. It is as loud as some 50 watt heads going into a 212 cab.

Are you going to sell any of these amps? What does the Ampeg sound like in regards to the Marshall sound?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm still learning the amp. It's a different beast to dial in. Each channel has a volume, treble & bass controls, plus rocker switches for Ultra-Hi and Ultra-Lo on each channel. I'm still trying to figure out how they go about doing what they do, but the Ultra-Lo switch will drop the output to about half. The Ultra-Hi switch gives you a LOT more treble bite. These switches make a pretty dramatic difference in the overall tone. 

How does it compare to a Marshall? I can get some pretty tasty sounds with the OCD and the treble rolled back. It's very dark-sounding. I can get a pretty convincing Rush "Limelight" and ZZ Top "Tush" sound with the Les Paul. With the OCD gain dimed it's easy to get into AC30 territory. Remember "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" by R.E.M.? It nails that sound. Single coils clean the amp up a lot. No problem doing strat tones from Dire Straits to Dick Dale without a boost, but not a lot of Marshall there. You can get pretty close to Trower's Marshall tone with a strat/OCD/Univibe. 

You should hear the built-in effects. The tremolo and vibrato are great up to about 3 on the intensity knob, then they are about as musical as a railroad crossing with a train coming (ding ding ding ding ding ding). The reverb is so strong that you can use it even when you are plugged into the dry channel just from the cabinet vibration.

I do plan to sell the Harmony 535 after I get the tubes and speakers swapped out. There's an old guy around here who has bluegrass jams at his house sometime who wants a cheap bass amp for people to use when they come over. He already has an old bass cabinet from one of those oddball 1960's Fender SS bass amps. I'm going to give him the Sears SS bass head if I can get it to work. I really need to sell that old DOD rackmount delay/chorus/flanger I picked up, too. You have time to test a handful of tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I've been testing quite a few, but it don't take long. Send them and I'll run them through. How many do you have?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know. I need to go through and inventory everything. Probably 15 or 20 tubes. I did go through them the other day and separate the usable from the crap. I know I've got two or three pairs of 6L6's and some 6V6's. I went ahead and pulled the RCA tubes from the Harmony so that's 7 tubes right there. I've got a ridiculous amount of 12BH7A's but I don't think they are even worth testing.'

I took the Harmony 535 to the local mom & pop shop and tried to trade it on a used oly white MIM strat with a mint-green pickguard. I don't even know if it's a real Fender body, but everything else is Fender. I do know it's a 2-piece body and I didn't think Fender did that on anything above the level of a Squier. He wanted $100 plus the Harmony amp and 2x12 cabinet. He said that people just didn't want the big tube stacks anymore - everybody wants the smaller solid-state amps with all the effects and stuff built in. I also had a DOD R-915 delay unit that I was willing to sweeten the deal with, but he wouldn't hear of it. All of his players are either "bluegrass or country" and don't want all that "fancy stuff". I don't know why I even bother to try to trade gear. I offered the guy a hell of a deal just because I didn't have anything tied up in it and I kinda dig the strat in a garage band kinda way. The killer is that the guitar was priced at $225 the last time I went in there, and today it had been "reduced" to $325. That's what I hate about those mom & pop stores - they'll feed you bullshit with a spoon and expect you to eat it.

I know where I fucked up. I plugged the strat into the Harmony and was playing some blues licks and jazz chords. I guess that just don't fit in with them bluegrass types. Next time I'll put a rebel flag decal on the amp and play "Sweet Home Alabama" just to show him it works right.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, what was the testing on those 2 RCA's I sent ya? Any good?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I've been testing quite a few, but it don't take long. Send them and I'll run them through. How many do you have?



BTW, since I'm sending you a bunch of stuff, I'm going to send those GT EL34M's for you do try in your amp. You need to try them if for no other reason so you can argue them with me and Joe. Plus, you can compare them to an actual XF2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> BTW, since I'm sending you a bunch of stuff, I'm going to send those GT EL34M's for you do try in your amp. You need to try them if for no other reason so you can argue them with me and Joe. Plus, you can compare them to an actual XF2.



Sounds like a winner. I have a 50 watter now.


----------



## MM54

Hi guys. I just got done depriming/cleaning/sizing about 175 30-06 shells I'm reloading for a friend.

I've been busy all day, sadly haven't gotten to play guitar for a while.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty, what was the testing on those 2 RCA's I sent ya? Any good?



Ah, well not the best. The 7025 has seen it's better days. It tested 13-9 with 22-22 considered good.

The 12AX7A comes in better at 18-24. 22-24 would have been better. If you need a reverb driver tube, this would work. At this point, it is about 70 percent good on Triode A and about 84 percent good on Triode B. This would be a low gain version of what I like to use for PI. I like a 33-37, or around that for a PI.

(OH MY GOD! MARTY'S NOT USING A GOLD PLATED, BALANCED TUBE IN THE PI.)

I have 7025's if you need one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Hi guys. I just got done depriming/cleaning/sizing about 175 30-06 shells I'm reloading for a friend.
> 
> I've been busy all day, sadly haven't gotten to play guitar for a while.



What brand of reloader do you use? Some of those expensive one's you can reload 250 pretty fast.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ah, well not the best. The 7025 has seen it's better days. It tested 13-9 with 22-22 considered good.
> 
> The 12AX7A comes in better at 18-24. 22-24 would have been better. If you need a reverb driver tube, this would work. At this point, it is about 70 percent good on Triode A and about 84 percent good on Triode B. This would be a low gain version of what I like to use for PI. I like a 33-37, or around that for a PI.
> 
> (OH MY GOD! MARTY'S NOT USING A GOLD PLATED, BALANCED TUBE IN THE PI.)
> 
> I have 7025's if you need one.




No I dont need any. Those were given to me by a friend. I noticed they were old RCA's and I didnt know how much life they had. Since they arent good you can trash them for me.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> What brand of reloader do you use? Some of those expensive one's you can reload 250 pretty fast.



I just have an RCBS manual press, no fancy progressive contraptions or anything. I reload as a hobby and a way to keep from spending all my money on 357 Magnum and 35 Remington ammo.


----------



## RiverRatt

I need a handgun. I've got a Mossberg 12 gauge pump, but I want something I can carry.

I've got some guy from Craigslist wanting to buy my McIntosh stereo who won't give me his personal info. He wants to meet tomorrow on the way to his brother's house in Memphis. First he wanted to send me a money order and have his "agent" pick up the stereo, now he wants to meet in person and claims to have cash. These are the situations where I want a concealed carry permit.


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! I just checked my email and he's still at it.

"hi....
are you want to sell your item to me,please let
me know yes.. or no .because i'm a real guy
business man, don't look like you think.
thanks...have a good ninght..."

What do you guys think? Deal or no deal?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! I just checked my email and he's still at it.
> 
> "hi....
> are you want to sell your item to me,please let
> me know yes.. or no .because i'm a real guy
> business man, don't look like you think.
> thanks...have a good ninght..."
> 
> What do you guys think? Deal or no deal?



Hell no!

Bring your friend...the 12 gauge...


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! I just checked my email and he's still at it.
> 
> "hi....
> are you want to sell your item to me,please let
> me know yes.. or no .because i'm a real guy
> business man, don't look like you think.
> thanks...have a good ninght..."
> 
> What do you guys think? Deal or no deal?



Spam. One thing gives it away. They say "Item". If I was talking to someone I would specify what I was going to buy.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a Mossberg 12 gauge pump...



Me too, I just mounted a red dot sight on it earlier today. It's nice.



RiverRatt said:


> I've got some guy from Craigslist wanting to buy my McIntosh stereo who won't give me his personal info. He wants to meet tomorrow on the way to his brother's house in Memphis. First he wanted to send me a money order and have his "agent" pick up the stereo, now he wants to meet in person and claims to have cash.



Haven't you learned from Carnada ?


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Spam. One thing gives it away. They say "Item". If I was talking to someone I would specify what I was going to buy.



Oh, he's been specific. 

good morning!!!!
i would like to buy your items
micntosh MA 4100and XR 16
TOTAL 800dolla .if you agree
please give me your name and your
address ,let me sent the money order
to you because about 12 days i'm be
there pick-up those item.if you agree
please..please let me know.please give 
me your phone let me call
thank you very much..have a great day...

He's persistent if nothing else. I gave him my cell # and told him to call me tomorrow afternoon. If he tries to go through with the deal, I'm going to call in a couple of favors from my cop friends (newspaper publisher, remember) and have someone on-hand when he shows up.


----------



## BluesRocker

Still it sounds fishy Alan. I wouldnt try it.


----------



## MM54

Do like you said, make sure you don't have the stereo with you when you meet them, and if all else fails... THROWING KNIVES!

I'm pretty sure you don't need a permit to carry them


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh yeah, I know it sounds fishy. I don't have to show up. I'm thinking seriously about giving him the address to the police station at city hall if he wants to meet. I figure if he shows up there, he has to be legitimate. They wouldn't care - most of the cops would probably think it's funny.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I need a handgun. I've got a Mossberg 12 gauge pump, but I want something I can carry.
> 
> I've got some guy from Craigslist wanting to buy my McIntosh stereo who won't give me his personal info. He wants to meet tomorrow on the way to his brother's house in Memphis. First he wanted to send me a money order and have his "agent" pick up the stereo, now he wants to meet in person and claims to have cash. These are the situations where I want a concealed carry permit.



That's a fucking scam!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hell no!
> 
> Bring your friend...the 12 gauge...



What Big Joe said.


----------



## MartyStrat54

These two videos got lost, so I am moving them here. Yes, it's about NOS tubes.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PJofPbgN4w]YouTube - Tube Queen[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's the second one. I hope you get a small laugh out of them.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXvFmQF5sCw&feature=youtube_gdata]YouTube - Tube Queen Part 2[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Paolo turned me on to the website. It's okay for free. The text to computer generated voice is a little sketchy and it even ate some of the script in the second one. It turned President Obama and Al Gore into Al Obama. You know, "Sweet Home Al Obama."

It also ate my entire first script and I had to do it all over. So there are risks.


----------



## solarburn

I already looked at them. Got a good laugh hehe. Palins hot!


----------



## TwinACStacks

Once again I have to give Marty props. Yesterday for about an hour I decided I'd try switching positions of several of the Preamp tubes I got from Marty from the Order he advised they be installed in.

Guess what sounded best? Yep, the way he said to install them. What REALLY surprised me was the difference in the V2 position (DSL). I swapped the Blackplate Raytheon in V2 with the High Gain Mullard in V4 (PI) expecting HUGE THINGS, after all... it's an NOS MULLARD!!! The Raytheon blew away the Mullard in that Position. Whodda Thunk?

You KNOW your shit Marty.

:cool2::cool2: TWIN


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's a fucking scam!



Surprisingly enough, this deal went off smoothly except for the language problem. I have the cash in hand. The guy's brother apparently drives all around picking up old electronics for him. They had a panel truck full of old organs, stereos, PA's... it took them 15 minutes to fit the McIntosh speakers into the back the truck was so full.


----------



## thrawn86

Heck, that's cool. Glad it went down without a shot being fired. I was about to whip out the gigantic play-clock buzzer over that deal.

@Twin: You just now started listening to Marty? Good grief, at least now you know what you're missing out on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALA-I'll be honest with you. I almost want to believe you got ripped off and you are afraid/embarrassed to tell us.

The buyer's responses were exactly like what you read on Craig's List. I am flabbergasted. (And I don't like being that way.)

Well...okay, I'm glad the deal went down. Now about what you are going to get momma. It's about time for another "smoothing over" gift isn't it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> @Twin: You just now started listening to Marty? Good grief, at least now you know what you're missing out on.



THRAWN-Thanks so much for the kind words. I wish there was more of them to go around.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Surprisingly enough, this deal went off smoothly except for the language problem. I have the cash in hand. The guy's brother apparently drives all around picking up old electronics for him. They had a panel truck full of old organs, stereos, PA's... it took them 15 minutes to fit the McIntosh speakers into the back the truck was so full.



Wow! I can't believe that was legit haha. Glad it worked out and everything is A ok.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALA-I'll be honest with you. I almost want to believe you got ripped off and you are afraid/embarrassed to tell us.
> 
> The buyer's responses were exactly like what you read on Craig's List. I am flabbergasted. (And I don't like being that way.)



Nope, I didn't get ripped off unless this guy is a master counterfeiter. I've got 8 pictures of Benjamin Franklin, watermarks and all. They even pass the pen test.



> Well...okay, I'm glad the deal went down. Now about what you are going to get momma. It's about time for another "smoothing over" gift isn't it?



I just gave her the cash. It's easier that way. She had a birthday in June and our anniversary was July 12, so she ain't hurtin' for bling. Now when I start building this second amp the fecal matter will strike the positive airflow system.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope, I didn't get ripped off unless this guy is a master counterfeiter. I've got 8 pictures of Benjamin Franklin, watermarks and all. They even pass the pen test.
> 
> 
> 
> I just gave her the cash. It's easier that way. She had a birthday in June and our anniversary was July 12, so she ain't hurtin' for bling. Now when I start building this second amp the fecal matter will strike the positive airflow system.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey guys, new recruit here. I would like to hang out with you all. My name is Shawn. I have a JCM 2204, an SLX and a DSL401. I play a little bass and mainly guitar.

I have two Mullards in the 2204 with a Sylvania in the PI. The SLX has two old RCA black plates and two GE's. I'm running current stuff in the 401. It is mainly a practice amp.

Anyway, I've been to this thread as a visitor many times and look forward to hanging with you pro's. I would love to get hooked up with some more of the exotic stuff.

Well I'll see you around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You are more than welcome here. Glad to have you. I see you have some nice amps. I have a modded 2204. It's from a tech here on the boards named Jon Wilder. 

I will tell you that unless you have your tubes tested, you don't know really what you are running. I have found that my taste for high gain tubes has grown. I now run hot V1 tubes in my JCM and JMP. I love the added clarity to the bite I get. Another tube that you want to look into is a Raytheon Black Plate. You want this one to be a high gain tube as well. It is a workhorse and kicks ass in the V2 slot. For the PI in the 2204 you want a silly tube. This is a tube that is extra high gain and lopsided. This will help produce an asymmetrical wave form and give up more even harmonics. You can get that Carlos Santana sustain. Very nice!

The guys here are all very well informed and any of them can answer your questions. 

Once again, glad to have you.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty, I'm sort of going in circles. Hey thanks for the info. It makes sense. I don't think the tubes sound as good as they use to. They are probably getting weak. I like the lineup you mentioned. I'll probably try to get the 2204 addressed first. Since I used to be a lurker, I know that you sell tubes. I may be sending you a PM about some that I am interested in.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Hey guys, new recruit here. I would like to hang out with you all. My name is Shawn. I have a JCM 2204, an SLX and a DSL401. I play a little bass and mainly guitar.
> 
> I have two Mullards in the 2204 with a Sylvania in the PI. The SLX has two old RCA black plates and two GE's. I'm running current stuff in the 401. It is mainly a practice amp.
> 
> Anyway, I've been to this thread as a visitor many times and look forward to hanging with you pro's. I would love to get hooked up with some more of the exotic stuff.
> 
> Well I'll see you around.



Welcome aboard. This is a great topic and we get excited over good tubes and what slots they end up in. See ya on the board later. Its time for me to go to work...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem. I'm always happy to talk tubes and if you like, we can talk over the phone.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Thanks Solar. You guys are really nice over here. I don't regret joining...so far.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Usually River Ratt is up on the thread late. He may make an appearance.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome aboard TNL! This place is like AA for tube addicts. Sounds like you're going to fit right in


----------



## thetragichero

no way, this thread is like MARDI GRAS for tube addicts!
NOS tube OVERLOAD!


----------



## thetragichero

or st patrick's day
take yer pick


----------



## MM54

Hey guys.

I was driving through the rich area of the... area today during work. It was trash day, and usually there are nice things out, like metal shelving, etc. I noticed a pile of suitcases (which turned out to be crap) and, out of the corner of my eye, I saw something sitting in front of them.

I turned around and put it in the truck - it's an ANCIENT Philco radio! It's in horrible shape, the power cord has fallen apart and it looks like it's been in an attic for 50+ years. It has tubes in it though, so I couldn't not help out the trash men.

Here are some pictures. The only tube that sounds familiar (they're all just numbers except for two) is a 6Z4.

Here you can see its shitty condition.





And here's the good part. I like that the speaker has a transformer mounted ON the basket. I also like the big old tubes:





I'll get back to it later with testing the tubes and finding out if it works (need to replace the power wire first). If nothing else, its come good parts inside, I bet.


----------



## RiverRatt

Two words if you're gonna try to power that thing up: 

FIRE EXTINGUISHER :Ohno: :Ohno:


----------



## MM54

No way is it getting near my outlets until I've gone through it inside and out and made sure its power worthy. You can see metal in big bits of the power cord, like I said. If it looks good inside and the tubes are good I may replace the power cord and any other damaged wires, etc.

And if I do end up deciding to power it up, all the outlets in my shop are through a switch by the door, so I can plug it in (isolated in the middle of a concrete floor), step away, THEN turn on the power to it


----------



## BluesRocker

Make sure not to have any wood or sawdust laying around.. That wouldnt be good.:Ohno:


----------



## RiverRatt

And seriously, don't touch the thing while it is plugged in until you make sure there's no voltage on the chassis.


----------



## MM54

Heh. I've done that before (my friend's old radio). Nothing like 120 to wake you up in the morning.

(I'll check it against known ground before I touch anything if I do power it up. There's a good chance I won't even bother, the caps'll likely explode if I did anyways )


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll bet those caps are drier than a dead man's asshole.


----------



## Micky

Jeez, it is just an old Philco radio.
Replace the cord and fire it up!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll bet those caps are drier than a dead man's asshole.



That's an interesting way to put it 

I think I'll go take it apart now, I'll be back later guys


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey Marty. What an interesting third day. Those are some crazy threads.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Micky said:


> Jeez, it is just an old Philco radio.
> Replace the cord and fire it up!



Agreed. Be safe, but no need to call the bomb squad


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those are some "taxing" threads on the moderator. What's new with you?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I took a look at some EBAY tubes today. I think I will try to score some of those Raytheon BP's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Send me a PM with the EBAY link. I want to read the listing over for you.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Will do. I'll send it a little later. How do you like that Deluxe?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I was telling you, this may be the Strat that I put new pickups on it.

I really want to get the right Humbucker. I may go with a Will Boggs or possibly a DiMarzio Super 3.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yep, I hear it's tough with those ash bodies. Some sound good with a certain pickup and the same model can have the same pickup and sound bad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I really think it has a nice solid body. I'm sure I can find a nice combination of pickups for this guitar.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well, I'll get that link to you and I will be over on your Strat thread after awhile.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I'll be over there later. I hope LuredMaul has left me some opinions on pickups.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well as I was telling you, this may be the Strat that I put new pickups on it.
> 
> I really want to get the right Humbucker. I may go with a Will Boggs or possibly a DiMarzio Super 3.



Can I make a suggestion?

First, check out Wolfetone pickups. This guy is only about 40 miles away from Joe, so he can go kick his ass if he winds you a bad pickup, but he won't. These are really great pickups. I have a set of the Dr. Vintage humbuckers in my LP. Check out the Marshallheads and the Caretaker - they are hotter than the Dr. V's which it sounds like is what you're after. You'll have to talk to Wolfe or email him and tell him exactly what you want. These aren't "off the shelf" pickups, they are wound to order.

I like his guarantee, too.

The "Wind 'em till you like 'em guarantee!"
If you are not completely satisfied with your pickups, send them back within thirty (30) days for a rewind or replacement. My ears differ from yours, his, or hers, and due to this, what I like, you may not. 
All pickups are guaranteed* against defects in workmanship and manufacturing for a period of one year. If any pickup should fail within that period, return it for a replacement or rewind.
*Guarantee does not cover abuse including but not limited to: spilled beer, cigarette burns, power drill playing, over ambitious versions of 3rd Stone From the Sun, Voodoo Chile: Slight Return or any Who song, pyrotechnics and fake blood.

Wolfetone Pickups - Products - Specializing In Custom, Handmade Guitar Pickups


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Can I make a suggestion?
> 
> First, check out Wolfetone pickups. This guy is only about 40 miles away from Joe, so he can go kick his ass if he winds you a bad pickup, but he won't. These are really great pickups. I have a set of the Dr. Vintage humbuckers in my LP. Check out the Marshallheads and the Caretaker - they are hotter than the Dr. V's which it sounds like is what you're after. You'll have to talk to Wolfe or email him and tell him exactly what you want. These aren't "off the shelf" pickups, they are wound to order.
> 
> I like his guarantee, too.
> 
> The "Wind 'em till you like 'em guarantee!"
> If you are not completely satisfied with your pickups, send them back within thirty (30) days for a rewind or replacement. My ears differ from yours, his, or hers, and due to this, what I like, you may not.
> All pickups are guaranteed* against defects in workmanship and manufacturing for a period of one year. If any pickup should fail within that period, return it for a replacement or rewind.
> *Guarantee does not cover abuse including but not limited to: spilled beer, cigarette burns, power drill playing, over ambitious versions of 3rd Stone From the Sun, Voodoo Chile: Slight Return or any Who song, pyrotechnics and fake blood.
> 
> Wolfetone Pickups - Products - Specializing In Custom, Handmade Guitar Pickups




Those look nice Alan. I will have to bookmark that site and give them a try on my next pickup GAS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, thanks for the info. The only problem is I want aftermarket low noise or no noise for the neck and middle positions. Not a lot of the custom pickup shops have this option. I mean they make nice pickups, but a florescent light will make them turn ugly.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, thanks for the info. The only problem is I want aftermarket low noise or no noise for the neck and middle positions. Not a lot of the custom pickup shops have this option. I mean they make nice pickups, but a florescent light will make them turn ugly.



I thought you were only looking for a humbucker.


----------



## MM54

Radio is a no-go, it would be suicide to plug it in 

The entire thing's can caps are paper in oil so dry stuff rattles inside them, all the wires are cracked and falling off the solder posts, etc. It definitely had been in an attic for several decades. (Made in 1938... so it could have been there a REALLY long time)

Good news is that I should be able to part it out (the knobs, brass plate, etc) and get some money. Oh yeah, and the tubes are all good except one section of one of them.


----------



## Micky

Oh well...


----------



## MM54

I figure one tube radio in working order is plenty.

Although now that I think of it, it was acting up last time I used it  

I hope one of the tubes didn't go out again, I just freaking replaced them*  Maybe when I'm broke in a couple weeks I'll rebuild it for something to do at minimal expense 

*All were NOS except the 12AT7 - it was a Groove Tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I was surprised how cheap vintage tube radios were going for. I saw some Zenith TransOceanic's go for cheap on EBAY and they are shortwave, AM/FM.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, I read that this Philco was originally $45, I saw one for sale for $50 and nobody was buying it. I don't really mind it going away since it isn't worth much anyways. It doesn't help that it's just AM and Shortwave.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I was surprised how cheap vintage tube radios were going for. I saw some Zenith TransOceanic's go for cheap on EBAY and they are shortwave, AM/FM.


 It is because Zenith flooded the market with them.
Worst part is, people think just because they have tubes in them they are worth a lot.
Generally a TransOceanic will go gor 50-75 bucks.


----------



## MM54

Micky said:


> It is because Zenith flooded the market with them.
> Worst part is, people think just because they have tubes in them they are worth a lot.
> Generally a TransOceanic will go gor 50-75 bucks.



My working tube radio is a Zenith, the worst part is that my shop is underground so it's hell trying to get reception. When it does though, it sounds better than any solid state radio I've used (not counting big $1000 stereo setup receivers). I got it for free when I bought a couple other things from a guy. I was going to part it out at first because he said it didn't work - I replaced one tube and it was fine, so I kept it 

Only thing I don't like is that it was stock from 1959 - as in the original tubes, caps, etc. The caps slightly bother me, but I figure if they go I can deal with it and either repair or replace the dumb thing


----------



## rjohns1

Yeah, I bought my Magnavox 1955 stereo table top for $120. I has am, fm, fm stereo, and an aux input. I love it, but yeah, you can get these old radios for a song.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know where a big Zenith console is that looks like it was made in the 1940's. The guy only wants $30 for it and it appears to be in good shape except for some peeling wood veneer on the side, but I don't have anywhere to store it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that would be all octal based tubes with 6SL7's or 6SN7 preamp tubes.
Anyone's guess on the power tubes. I think all the 6L6's were metal cased.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's all octal. I think the power tubes pre-date the 6L6.

I've been thinking about building a little low watt 6SL7 amp like a tweed champ or something. I got a handful of old metal-base octal preamp tubes in that box I got a few weeks ago. There's some 6SN7's and 6SL7's. I really need to catalog that box and see what I've got. A lot of the pins look like they've been wet and are heavily oxidized. What's the best way to get rid of that without damaging anything?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> It's all octal. I think the power tubes pre-date the 6L6.
> 
> I've been thinking about building a little low watt 6SL7 amp like a tweed champ or something. I got a handful of old metal-base octal preamp tubes in that box I got a few weeks ago. There's some 6SN7's and 6SL7's. I really need to catalog that box and see what I've got. A lot of the pins look like they've been wet and are heavily oxidized. What's the best way to get rid of that without damaging anything?



I'm a fan of 5- and 6-pin as well as loctal 

I had some in the boxes I got that were really bad, a lot of it came off with contact cleaner and a rag, but if it's REALLY bad, you may need to resort to something more intense like a light-grit sandpaper or something.


----------



## Fixr1984

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, thanks for the info. The only problem is I want aftermarket low noise or no noise for the neck and middle positions. Not a lot of the custom pickup shops have this option. I mean they make nice pickups, but a florescent light will make them turn ugly.





I met this guy at a guitar show earlier this year. He had the booth next to me and it was a slow show so we got to talking. He seems to really know his stuff. Not sure if he will have what you are looking for but here is a link.

Welcome to Angeltone Electronics LLC - Home of Angeltone Musical Instrument Pickups!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I'm a fan of 5- and 6-pin as well as loctal
> 
> I had some in the boxes I got that were really bad, a lot of it came off with contact cleaner and a rag, but if it's REALLY bad, you may need to resort to something more intense like a light-grit sandpaper or something.



Real men only need 4 pins!






Sandpaper is a no-no. You don't want a rough surface on your pins - it makes it harder to get a solid connection. I've used Brasso and a scotchbrite pad but it's hard to hit all the spots. These are really bad. They look like corroded battery terminals.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Real men only need 4 pins!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sandpaper is a no-no. You don't want a rough surface on your pins - it makes it harder to get a solid connection. I've used Brasso and a scotchbrite pad but it's hard to hit all the spots. These are really bad. They look like corroded battery terminals.



I have a few of those, too 

How about this (I wish I had some of these, they're probably worth a good bit as a museum piece, I read somewhere they were expensive as hell back when they were being used): http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/2-1-Tube.jpg

I meant like 600-grit sandpaper, it won't leave grooves, but will wear down the corrosion slowly.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I have a few of those, too
> 
> How about this (I wish I had some of these, they're probably worth a good bit as a museum piece, I read somewhere they were expensive as hell back when they were being used):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I meant like 600-grit sandpaper, it won't leave grooves, but will wear down the corrosion slowly.



That's absolutely bizarre looking. What was it used for? Calculus?

One of these days I'm going to build a clock with nixie tubes. Or maybe a wristwatch...

The Nixie Tube Wristwatch


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-What I always used was a toothbrush to get the real loose stuff off and then synthetic steel wool. You might try regular steel wool, but I would try the synthetic first. In real severe cases, I have used jewelers rinse. Keep in mind that Brasso is harsher and will actually reduce the pin diameter. The jewelers rinse is still going to effect the size of the pin. It all depends on how long it soaks.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

may sound like a dumb question ....but can you really make an amp from one of those old radio's etc etc ?


----------



## RiverRatt

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> may sound like a dumb question ....but can you really make an amp from one of those old radio's etc etc ?



It really depends on what you start with. An old Hammond organ amp is the best to work with as it's more similar to a guitar amp to begin with. I gutted a Magnavox 188 amp and tubes and built a 5E3x2 Deluxe amp out of it. Mostly I just used the power transformer, choke and the tubes, but that still saves you a bundle. I ended up spending about $150 on caps & resistors and a new output transformer. I also had a donor amp to build it in which saved a lot more money. I posted pictures of it either here or in the power tube thread.

Of course, you can just take a phono amp and rig up an input jack and use it as-is. I've got an old GE external speaker with the amp built-in that I did just that to. It's putting out about 1 watt into two 6" speakers. You could hold a conversation over it when it's cranked, but it sounds pretty good - something like an old tweed Fender. 

Charlie Goodsell started building guitar amps out of old Hammond organ amps. There were several models that used a pair 6BQ5/EL84 output tubes and a EZ81 rectifier. The preamp usually used 12AX7's. Replace a few resistors and caps and you can easily have a Marshall 18-watt clone for under $100 bucks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great run down ALAN. You with out a doubt have got some nice little amps. I'm still waiting to hear more about the Ampeg. Did you replace those bad switches?


----------



## RobS

MM54 said:


> I have a few of those, too
> 
> How about this (I wish I had some of these, they're probably worth a good bit as a museum piece, I read somewhere they were expensive as hell back when they were being used): http://infolab.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/2-1-Tube.jpg
> 
> I meant like 600-grit sandpaper, it won't leave grooves, but will wear down the corrosion slowly.



Here in Aus there is a product called CLR (calcium,lime,rust). Its a liquid and I put some in the bottle lid about 1cm deep and then stand the tube in it for about 20 minutes. It cleans the pins very well.

Rob


----------



## RiverRatt

RobS said:


> Here in Aus there is a product called CLR (calcium,lime,rust). Its a liquid and I put some in the bottle lid about 1cm deep and then stand the tube in it for about 20 minutes. It cleans the pins very well.
> 
> Rob



I have that stuff in the bathroom closet. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great run down ALAN. You with out a doubt have got some nice little amps. I'm still waiting to hear more about the Ampeg. Did you replace those bad switches?



I can't find them. There are some replacements out there but they are the white ones that they used later in the 1970's. I need to pick up some Deoxit and take the old ones out and give them a good cleaning. 

I think I have a couple of Scotchbrite pads at home. Maybe between that and the CLR I can get 'em cleaned up. I went through most of my oddball tubes last night and cataloged the numbers. I thought I had some 6SL7's but they were all 6SN7's. The metal base ones IIRC were 6SK7's, and they look OLD.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I have a boatload of 6SN7's from that church job where the priest handed me a big box of tubes. Think how old that organ was? All octal based triodes in the tone generator.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I have a boatload of 6SN7's from that church job where the priest handed me a big box of tubes. Think how old that organ was? All octal based triodes in the tone generator.



I hope that's the only time you ever got handed anything from a priest's organ.... 

I'll go somewhere now and wait for the lightning bolt to strike.

Thanks for the props on the amp build. I'm not trying to come off as an expert just because I built an amp. I think I'm damned lucky that it worked. I did learn a lot, though. Joey Voltage answered all my newb questions and helped me make sense of what I didn't understand. Most of the credit should go to him.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I hope that's the only time you ever got handed anything from a priest's organ....
> 
> I'll go somewhere now and wait for the lightning bolt to strike.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> That's absolutely bizarre looking. What was it used for? Calculus?



It's a Selectron tube, they were used for memory in very early vacuum-tube computers. I'll find the wikipedia article here somewhere...

Here we go:
Selectron tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I hope that's the only time you ever got handed anything from a priest's organ....



Wow! Priest? Organ? Tube? That's funny Alan, but I would watch out for lightning.


----------



## solarburn

Thats wild. I never knew about the selectron tube...kewl!


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, remember that Baldwin tone cabinet with the Jensen speaker I looked at about a month ago? The guy was asking $100 for it, I ended up not getting it because of price and travel time. Besides, he said he had "Quite a few people interested in it" and he had the cable to hook it back up to an organ.

Anyways, he just relisted it on CL as "Reduced Price" and is asking $150


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow, he must be like some of the sellers on EBAY. They have some power tubes listed as a "Buy It Now" for $150. When they don't sell, they relist the tubes at $200. I guess I see what they are trying to do, but I still think it's funny.

Yeah, 150 is high and it's not a Hammond cab. If it was, all the parts inside of it is worth money. They had a patent on spinning horns and a spinning baffle for a high powered 12-inch mid bass speaker. This creates a doppler effect. This is like the sound of a train approaching you with its horns blaring and then passing you by. The sound waves "bend" and get compressed and then expanded. 

Anyway, those cabs are worth money. This one is not worth $150. If I remember, I did some research for you and I even found the matching organ for sale. I think I told you $75. That would be a good price, considering the hassle to get it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I put some stuff up for sale if anybody's interested - forum brother discount applies.

jam 66 tn items - Get great deals on Musical Instruments items on eBay.com!

I'm trying to raise enough money for a Fender guitar-type product. I think I'm set up amp-wise. There may be a handful of tubes for sale if I can ever get a box of them to Marty for testing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You've got the Deja Vibe for sale. Wow. I'd probably love it for about three days.


----------



## RiverRatt

Drove down by the river today. It was 105 degrees. There was a thunderstorm moving in. I wanted to jump in so bad...






I made friends with the Harmony 535 today. I'd about made up my mind to sell it and put the money toward a strat. Now I can't decide. I bridged the channels on the thing and it is a tone monster. The 2x12 is loaded with the CTS Alnico speakers that were in the Ampeg. I put some decent preamp tubes in it and it spoke to me in loud and rumbling tones. I can't begin to explain the tone this thing has with the channels jumpered. With a decent pedal driving it, it IS the brown sound.






I put a new input jack on channel 1. It has some hideously cheap plastic jacks in there, like the kind that Fender uses on their $50 amps. I got a look at the pots. They all date between week 48 and 50 of 1968.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah, 1968. Marty was in the 9th grade. Certain engineers working for certain musical amplifier companies were shouting, "Use the transistor, it's better." Companies didn't know which way to go. Between 1968 and 1974 there were a lot of hybrid amps. Most were solid state preamps and tube power sections. Some companies had a tube division and a SS division. Some companies never stopped making tube amps.

I tell you, if you ever find one of those Univox clones of a JTM-45, I'm gonna die. You know ALAN, I look for stuff and I just can't find a thing. I never had a big tube score. It's been 3 years since I found two tube TV's and one was a very old Zenith with radio and phonograph. 

Maybe one of these days I'll find something. An old Airline would be nice with 6BQ5's.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

My dad had two Univox amps when I was younger. One I think was a 410 combo and it may have been SS. He did have a two twelve combo that was tubes, because I remember him changing tubes in it. He sold them both over time. More kids and less time for his boyhood dreams.


----------



## AxlOz

So what you're saying Thunder N Lightning is that its your fault you're dad no longer has awesome gear..?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I hate to rub salt into a wound... I know this isn't exactly preamp thread stuff (then again, we have strayed a bit). My dad cuts timber (he turns 70 this year), and there is an old house where they are working. He got me a couple of Zenith TVs to pull apart and a radio or two. Get this: the guy who lived in the house was a TV repairman. I've got umpteen copies of Radio Electronics and a copy of the Philco Electric and Electrical Fundamentals Vol. 3 - Vacuum Tubes and Semiconductor Fundamentals, and several TV and tube service manuals. I'll post a catalog of all the tubes I've gotten as soon as I get them ready. I've probably got 125+ numbers and hardly any duplicates in the bunch.

Don't be jealous. I've waited years for this, too. I've just hit an incredible run of luck lately. And remember, the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass every day.

The secret is, you have to get your name out locally and have people associating you with old tube equipment. You'll get more word-of-mouth businsess than you would by advertising. 99% of it will be useless. I've just been having bars and cherries come up a lot latetly. It'll change. You have to put yourself in the position to find goodies - stop at every junk store, antique shop or mall, and even yard sales. Remember the McIntosh deal? That turned $20 into $800 and it was solid state. Follow Matt's lead and cruise around on trash day. You'll be surprised at what people throw away. An old dude just a couple of miles from me threw away his DAD's Gibson amplifier when it quit working.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now I'm really shedding tears. I don't know what to do. I live in a small hole in the wall. Oh well. I'll be retiring in the coming years and it won't matter anymore.


----------



## solarburn

Doesn't it make you want to tag along with Alan just to see what gets found hehe. If he keeps getting lucky like this he could have his own thread about scoring vintage gear including off the wall stuff. Better yet a TV show on the discovery channel we'd all sit and watch as Alan scores really kewl gear that guys like us go googoo over.

That Harmony amp sounds like a winner especially if its getting the "Brown sound". Would luv to hear it...


----------



## solarburn

Well I was messing around with my Monza today and decided to put some good tubes in her. I started off with an RCA tested at 30/30. I already had rolled it in my NT and it sounds real nice. Well I plopped it in V1(out went the JJ83S)and fired her up. Ringggggggg...oh...in the Monza it is a bit microphonic. Not in the NT though...at least audible to my ears. 

So I don't dismiss microphonic tubes any more before trying them in other spots. Well the Monza has only one other spot to go. Popped it in the PI and fired her up...no ringy. Put the mini-watt in V1. Oh I almost forgot...stuffed the Mullard GZ34 in the "sag" hole...fired that hot lil' girl up and man did she sing and bloom. Much better than the JJ83S/LPS/Sovtec rectifier combo it came with IMO. I did leave the TAD EL84's in it for now. They sound good to me.

Another one of MM's tone packs for his bruther oer' here in Wetville. The other part of that tone pack(Lorenz/Mullard)is in the NT. These 2 low watter amps are really fun to play blues on. Luv em'. They really make me have to play though as there is no hiding slop hehe. The translation is an accurate account of my playing ability. Humbling...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a guy on my local Craig's List has a NT for sale in mint condition with the soft case for $330. I was thinking about buying it, but then I have to look at how much I spent on the JCM and JMP, the modding and the Strat. I also bought about $1600 worth of speakers. Some I sold in cabs, but I have 12 in three 412 cabs and four pair laying around. I bought some other toys as well. So, I had to say, "No," to the NT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a guy on my local Craig's List has a NT for sale in mint condition with the soft case for $330. I was thinking about buying it, but then I have to look at how much I spent on the JCM and JMP, the modding and the Strat. I also bought about $1600 worth of speakers. Some I sold in cabs, but I have 12 in three 412 cabs and four pair laying around. I bought some other toys as well. So, I had to say, "No," to the NT.



You've got plenty of tone(and then some)to play with for now hehe. I'm bet'n the Monza and it played together would sound cool. So many things to buy and not nough moola! Gonna try and get that A/B/Y switcher in the near future. I just got to hear them both at the same time...so do the neighbors...


----------



## MartyStrat54

So were you able to hear a difference with the Mullard GZ34? How would you describe it over the Sovtek?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So were you able to hear a difference with the Mullard GZ34? How would you describe it over the Sovtek?



It was more feel but also I thought there was a better bloom or a more dynamic bloom to the sag. I'd say the Sovtec was stiffer or not as pliant I guess. The BEL I bought for $60 shares alot in common with the Mullard. Overall a better blooming/feeling sag compared to the JJ and Sovtec I have. Plus they will last 10 times longer eh...supposedly...

I'll do more testing with the rec tubes. It could be my imagination that I notice any diff in sag or bloom. I better spend more time rolling them.


----------



## MM54

I had a half hour to kill this morning so I took some pictures 

TUBES!





TUBES! and AMP!





TUBES! and VINYL*!




(Note that there are 4 6CA7EH's not pictured, they're actually still in their shipping box )

*About a little over a third of the collection

Oh and remember that Zenith 12AU7 with the side getter form many moons ago? Well I managed to read the EIA code off it and it's 274, which is RCA. Interesting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have some NOS 6CA7's that are labeled Zenith. Of course the "other" markings clearly show that they are Sylvania's. Zenith bought out a lot of tubes.

You did good and you have plenty of tubes. 

What are you using the EH6CA7's in? I like them.


----------



## MM54

They're in my 900, mine's from 1990, remember back then? They didn't have a shortage yet so the first year or two of the 900s were set up for EL34's 






Yeah, I noticed that I have a ton of Zenith tubes (mainly TV and radio tubes of course). I never realized how big of a company they much have been until I saw how many tubes they had relabeled. Are they even still in business? We used to have a (SS of course) Zenith TV console, it was nice.


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, if you get on and see this, the Kentucky Headhunters are playing at the infamous Clifton Riverbend Festival just about 30 minutes away from here on Sept. 10. I'm thinking about seeing if the wife wants to go and check them out. I've been listening to "Flying Under the Radar" and it has a killer cover of "Big Boss Man" on it. If I could get a chance to talk Les Pauls with Greg Martin, it would definitely be worth the drive. I might could use my press connections to get backstage. I know it's a long way from home, but if you want to make a road trip, I'll see what I can do.

Clifton is a little town on the Tennessee river just a few miles north of where I am. Very New Orleans flavor - there's even a couple of Cajun restaurants. Sounds like a pretty good evening.

Clifton Horseshoe Riverbend Festival


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Kentucky Headhunters are cool SOB's. That Big Boss Man is fat sounding and it is a loud Marshall and Les Paul with a band backing it up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it's heavy as hell. It's obviously a 5-string bass which I think sounds killer in a blues band. If you get a chance, check out "Blues is My Business" by Larry McCray. There's a helluva 5-string player on that tune. It's one of my favorite modern blues tunes if not THE favorite.


----------



## MartyStrat54

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa8ZahBSQtU]YouTube - ‪Larry McCray "Blues Is My Business"‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

The studio version has Larry's brother on vocals. It's bad-ass.


----------



## solarburn

Tastee!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks for the post, BTW. I haven't found a live version of that tune yet.

There's a YouTube video somewhere of Larry doing "Soulshine" which is pretty good, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n59KkQqAsA]YouTube - ‪Larry McCray Soulshine New‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Thats a good'n!


----------



## solarburn

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMx6ZEGPIm4]YouTube - ‪Brian Kahanek - Deliverance (Gibson 59 VOS Les Paul)‬&lrm;[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

A damn good'n.

Larry toured with Dickie Betts years ago - that's where I first discovered him. He's one of the baddest players out there.


----------



## RiverRatt

I wanted an R4 Les Paul pretty bad after I saw this clip.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I wanted an R4 Les Paul pretty bad after I saw this clip.



It really was very nicely played and felt. Enjoyed!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-That video you posted of "Deliverance," by Brian K. That's the sort of guy who wants some low end. Even if you aren't playing that fat of a low E string.

When you are in a clean setting playing a lot on the low E, you will get really powerful notes with the right speaker and cab.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-That video you posted of "Deliverance," by Brian K. That's the sort of guy who wants some low end. Even if you aren't playing that fat of a low E string.
> 
> When you are in a clean setting playing a lot on the low E, you will get really powerful notes with the right speaker and cab.



Yeah I luv the sound he's getting out of that BB. The Monza has a really fat articulate bass on it even with different speakers. Its just how it comes out big and bold.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it really is wild how much difference there is between the clean tones and overdrive. The clean tone is more of a regular sine wave and it really draws the power from the amp. Of course I love the thick distortion myself.:cool2:


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah it really is wild how much difference there is between the clean tones and overdrive. The clean tone is more of a regular sine wave and it really draws the power from the amp. Of course I love the thick distortion myself.:cool2:



Check this shit out man. The TS has tube packs for the Z amps! I haven't looked yet so I'm going to see what they recommend for mine. Remember mine has a mini-watt in V1, RCA in the PI and TAD EL84's with a Mullard GZ34. Lets see what they got...

Dr. Z


----------



## solarburn

Oh my...excitement deflates immediately...

And thats why I buy MM tone packs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

$65.80 doesn't buy a whole lot, does it? And just think, you could buy a set and the JJ could take a dump after an hour...right?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> $65.80 doesn't buy a whole lot, does it? And just think, you could buy a set and the JJ could take a dump after an hour...right?



Thats what mine originally came with. It didn't last long and yes the tone got better or more to my liking with my replacements. Z did better on the second tube offering at least power tube wise. Guess what the JJ83S sounded like in V1? Dull and flat like it always sounds in V1 in all 3 of my amps plus 1 pedal hehe.


----------



## thrawn86

The $943 dollars I spent on MM tone is well worth the expense.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> The $943 dollars I spent on MM tone is well worth the expense.



You must be a "platinum" customer.


----------



## thrawn86

I wish I had 943 bones to throw at NOS valves. Maybe someday.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For 943 dollars I would throw in a Class 5 with a speaker upgrade, plus the tubes.


----------



## thrawn86

Such a bro!


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, that's the last time I stay up all night posting and drinking. I'm too old for this. No hangover, but I feel wiped out, like I could sleep for a day or two. I've been trying to work up enough energy to go shoot a video of that amp. 

Went out electronics hunting today. All I found was an old jukebox that probably had a good amp in it, but dude wanted $500 for it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He must be watching that show on TV called, "American Pickers." $500 bucks. Did it come with a big box of records?


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, here's the Harmony with decent 12AX7's in it. I'm getting just a little fuzziness on the tremolo. I may need to try a different tube. I haven't taken any readings, but those little tubes are hot enough to blister your fingers.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHygM3RbTuo]YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 Demo2‬&lrm;[/ame]

Once again, listen to the tone, not the playing.


----------



## solarburn

I liked it at the end when you boosted it best. You could use guitar roll of to take some hair off too if needed. I heard some nice thickness in there at the end too. You could play some stoner rock. Once those mics clip like that it tends to crud up the better part of whats happening. Where was the volume at?


----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy is proud of his used Mullard's.

Buy 1 or 10 1958 Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 Triplett Tst NOS - eBay (item 320572521689 end time Aug-14-10 15:19:25 PDT)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy is proud of his used Mullard's.
> 
> Buy 1 or 10 1958 Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 Triplett Tst NOS - eBay (item 320572521689 end time Aug-14-10 15:19:25 PDT)



Proud to pocket as much money as he can for some old used toobs hehe. 

I like Mullard too...looks like I can't afford to have them anymore...:Ohno:


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I liked it at the end when you boosted it best. You could use guitar roll of to take some hair off too if needed. I heard some nice thickness in there at the end too. You could play some stoner rock. Once those mics clip like that it tends to crud up the better part of whats happening. Where was the volume at?



About 10 o'clock. When it's bridged, the hum is just too much to go louder. I might could tweak the bass and get it louder. I'll have to wait until the family is out of the house, or at least the wife, to try that. It has a pretty good tone for a cheap amp. One of these days I'll do a gut shot of it. It's pretty wild in there. If I decide to keep it, I'll have to put a 3-prong AC cord on it. Right now, I'm leaning toward selling it and buying that black strat I was looking at Friday. With that and my eBay sales, I should be in the ballpark of a USA Fender with my discount.

Stoner rock, huh? I don't know why that STP song crept in there. When I'm dialing in tone and goofing around, the sound I'm getting tends to dictate what I play.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Proud to pocket as much money as he can for some old used toobs hehe.
> 
> I like Mullard too...looks like I can't afford to have them anymore...:Ohno:



I just don't buy into the Mullard hype. Yes, they are good tubes and yes, they sound good, but there are plenty of others that sound just as good for a lot less money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are a lot of others built just like them. I mean we have all compared the Mullard guts to other tubes and they are very similar if not identical. A lot of Amperex Holland tubes look like Mullards. 

And as far as production dates go, some sellers think if they are made before say 1966, they are worth a lot more, because they "sound better." Yeah, right.

Also, I have never heard any difference between a metal base xf1 EL34 and a double getter xf2. Yet the xf1's demand almost twice as much money. These buyers are the ones that have the $1500 power cord and the $1200 wall outlet.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Kentucky Headhunters are cool SOB's. That Big Boss Man is fat sounding and it is a loud Marshall and Les Paul with a band backing it up.





RiverRatt said:


> Josh, if you get on and see this, the Kentucky Headhunters are playing at the infamous Clifton Riverbend Festival just about 30 minutes away from here on Sept. 10. I'm thinking about seeing if the wife wants to go and check them out. I've been listening to "Flying Under the Radar" and it has a killer cover of "Big Boss Man" on it. If I could get a chance to talk Les Pauls with Greg Martin, it would definitely be worth the drive. I might could use my press connections to get backstage. I know it's a long way from home, but if you want to make a road trip, I'll see what I can do.
> 
> Clifton is a little town on the Tennessee river just a few miles north of where I am. Very New Orleans flavor - there's even a couple of Cajun restaurants. Sounds like a pretty good evening.
> 
> Clifton Horseshoe Riverbend Festival



Now that my good man would be awesome! I'd just need to make sure I could get time off from work... Man that would rock.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, here's the Harmony with decent 12AX7's in it. I'm getting just a little fuzziness on the tremolo. I may need to try a different tube. I haven't taken any readings, but those little tubes are hot enough to blister your fingers.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Harmony 535 Demo2‬&lrm;
> 
> Once again, listen to the tone, not the playing.



Love it! Playin' some classis Nuge'!!! Sounded pretty sweet bro. Rock on.


----------



## dodgethis

Here I am contemplating a retubing of my JVM in the next few months with EHs entirely and my dad brings this home from his audiophile shop for some run in tests.






Those EH 12AX7s and 12AU7s are tempting me to swap them with the stock ones in my JVM. Pity those power tubes are KT90s though, I was hoping that they would be KT77s as I was looking to get those.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your dad knows his HiFi, that's a damn nice amp and high power too.

Hey, don't put all EH's in your guitar amp. There are better than that. The EH is great in the PI slot, but you want to go with a Tung-Sol low noise in V1 and then I like a Mullard RI in V2. Your amp just has three preamp tubes, correct? If so, then you use the EH for the PI.

Everybody, Dodge is from Singapore and I have been sharing comments with him on my Strat thread. Welcome him aboard.


----------



## dodgethis

The JVM has five preamp tubes in total.



JVM forum said:


> V1 (under the metal can), V2 gain stages, V1A, V2B are used in all modes, the rest is switched in/out depending on the mode.
> V3A: tone control buffer.
> V3B: channel mixer/ parallel loop send
> V4A: FX mix
> V4B: Reverb Mix
> V5: Phase splitter



I just realised I was supposed to swap out V4 to see if the tube was causing the reverb to go whoosh on activation...


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Now that my good man would be awesome! I'd just need to make sure I could get time off from work... Man that would rock.



It'd be a lot of trouble for a 2-hour show. Like I said before, it's a shame that none of us live closer together. 

Don't you have people in Nashville that you stay with sometimes? Now that might make it do-able. I'll email the promoters Monday and see about tickets & backstage creds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> It'd be a lot of trouble for a 2-hour show. Like I said before, it's a shame that none of us live closer together.
> 
> Don't you have people in Nashville that you stay with sometimes? Now that might make it do-able. I'll email the promoters Monday and see about tickets & backstage creds.



Yeah if I lived an hour away, I'd be eating your food, drinking your beer and sleeping on your sofa. Among other things.


----------



## RiverRatt

And you'd be more than welcome. You might find it a bit crowded with the two cats, two dogs and three kids, though. Oh yeah, and boxes of tubes and electronics stacked all around. I threw away a bunch of stuff today; mostly cannibalized phonographs and computer power supplies, and a refrigerator.

I don't know how it is other places, but if you have a big item, like a TV or a major appliance, you're supposed to make arrangements with Solid Waste to do a pick-up. I just put it out by the mailbox. The refrigerator was there for a grand total of two hours when this guy with a 30-year-old pickup and his "goat trailer" (his words) stopped and picked it up.


----------



## MM54

One man's trash is another's treasure. I've proven that many times picking stuff up myself 

Good related story: Back in the 80's my dad lived downtown and had a couch he wanted to get rid of. He put it out in his front yard with a "Free" sign on it. It sat there for a week, nobody touched it. So he flipped over the "Free" sign and painted "For Sale" on the back of it.

The next morning he found it had been stolen overnight


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there is a restriction for refrigerators and air conditioners. Anything with freon. Some places want it drained before being picked up.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well there is a restriction for refrigerators and air conditioners. Anything with freon. Some places want it drained before being picked up.



I accidentally drained the freon out of a window AC unit. In my back garage.

It was unpleasant while I was trying to find the door through the haze. All the clouds coming out every little seam of that building, you'd have thought it was on fire.

"If I tighten this..."
*PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF*
"Ah shit"


----------



## BluesRocker

Gotta love those "Ah shit" moments. I know I do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That shit is poisonous to breathe. You're lucky it didn't fry your lungs.

I was moving an old refrigerator for my day and a huge chunk of ice broke in the freezer compartment. This broke a freon line and this 40 year old freon shot out and damn near put me down. Oh it was nasty. I really respect that stuff.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> That shit is poisonous to breathe. You're lucky it didn't fry your lungs.
> 
> I was moving an old refrigerator for my day and a huge chunk of ice broke in the freezer compartment. This broke a freon line and this 40 year old freon shot out and damn near put me down. Oh it was nasty. I really respect that stuff.



Very hazardous stuff. Glad both you guyz survived the shot of that shit!


----------



## MM54

Yeah, it burns eyes, nose, and throat. After I got my way out I sat on the ground and watched the building vent. Then I realized my throat hurt like hell and got a drink.

After a day of coughing I was fine, although it probably didn't help much in the long run with my health, I've never had great lungs.


----------



## solarburn

Lets get together and crash at Alans for some jams and stories. Would be a riot to be able to have some time and do it. We always have here but man I know we'd have a hell of a good time hanging out in person hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Whoa, there Tex. We need to find someone more centrally located. Maybe someone who isn't married, no kids or pets, and has a lot of amps to play with.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Whoa, there Tex. We need to find someone more centrally located. Maybe someone who isn't married, no kids or pets, and has a lot of amps to play with.



I have 10 guitars, 2 half stacks (I can get more if needed), 3 bedrooms, no wife, kids or pets. 

Edit: But I am not Centrally Located.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I have 10 guitars, 2 half stacks (I can get more if needed), 3 bedrooms, no wife, kids or pets.
> 
> Edit: But I am not Centrally Located.



Damn! Almost!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Whoa, there Tex. We need to find someone more centrally located. Maybe someone who isn't married, no kids or pets, and has a lot of amps to play with.



Ok we're going to Marty's...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Damn! Almost!



Sorry Joe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do my tubes count as pets?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty's a lone dog? Well hell, that's probably where all the married guys crash when they are on the outs with the wife.

No wonder you are always buying stuff. No one to tell you NO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

True, true, but I really need to buy some shorts and I keep putting it off. No one to say, "Eeeww, you have holes in your shorts."

I mean I'm eccentric. I buy equipment and then I pass on nice clothes. I would rather get a nice pedal than a pair of shoes.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

That's funny dude. 2 cool. The wife sees a hole and they become rags. It's like she's afraid someone will see the hole.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why is that? A small hole the size of a dime and they are ready to throw them out. It reminds me of an old grade school anthem.

God bless my underware.
My one and only pair.
I wore them and tore them,
on the seat of the old rocking chair.

Sing it about ten times...it starts getting good.


----------



## BluesRocker

if my stuff gets holes in them I usually wear them more.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Okay, I believe you are into the NOS gas. I mean Nitrous Oxide. Dental grade. Perfect for human use. It will turn you into a slate of granite.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I am highly familiar with that. I know about the dental grade. That and some Mary G. Wanna will make you forget how to ride a bike.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Right on. I can't even ride a motorcycle anymore. I'd probably kill myself.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a whole stack of Radio Electronics magazines today from around 1970 to 1975. They are all full of the latest solid state tricks and projects, but every once in awhile some interesting tube stuff pops up. I particularly like the readers' letters. 

One guy wrote in and said that he had subbed a 6BQ5 for his EZ81 rectifier and wondered why his PT went belly-up in just a few days. I was amazed that it took that long.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I still ride a bike, but it's been a while for anything like a Harley.


----------



## RiverRatt

I used to have a dentist who was very free with the nitrous oxide when I was a kid. I remember sitting in his chair getting higher than hell - I mean, you could hear the fluorescent lights. He must have had an 8-track tape with a few songs on it. I remember listening to "Cecilia" by Simon & Garfunkel over and over. The xylophone solo was more painful than what he was doing.

My friend used to have one of those whippit balloon thingies. We discovered that if you listened to the intro to Midnight Special by CCR, you could really lock in on that tremolo on the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah yes, the Whippit. About the size of a 7189. Used by bakers is special decorating devices. The Whippit would provide gas pressure to propel the icing. Man did a lot of those bakers cop a buzz.

"Harry, you misspelled Sweetheart again." "It's not Sweatheart!"

A guy made a device that regulated the Whippit gas pressure and you wore a WWII gas mask. Good lord Almighty.


----------



## thrawn86

You guys crack me up. Whippits. The one and only thing I've ever done. Twice. Besides alcohol.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are for the most part, harmless. Too much can be too much. 

That did take me back. I haven't heard anyone use "Whippits" in a long time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I got a whole stack of Radio Electronics magazines today from around 1970 to 1975. They are all full of the latest solid state tricks and projects, but every once in awhile some interesting tube stuff pops up. I particularly like the readers' letters.
> 
> One guy wrote in and said that he had subbed a 6BQ5 for his EZ81 rectifier and wondered why his PT went belly-up in just a few days. I was amazed that it took that long.



Now back to tubes and tube lore. 

Oh man, I'd like a stack of those in my bathroom. That would be keen. 

In between 70 and 75, they were still trying to figure out how to make a transistor reliable. Motorola had the best stuff at this point in the game. I have a Marantz 2275 and I got drunk one night at a big party and I blew one channel out. I had all Motorola power transistors put in and it was really sweet.

Now for the guy who put a 6BQ5 in for an EZ81. My first question is, "WHY?" My next observation is, "They made really good iron back in the day."

I like looking at the ad's in old magazines. They can really take you back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

PORN

MY BABIES SIDE BY SIDE. JMP ON THE LEFT, JCM ON THE RIGHT.


----------



## solarburn

Thats bonerific! Yep...it surez iz!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yah, I'm walking around with a limp myself.

What's going on Joe? How are your rectifier tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, tonight is going much better. I discovered a new beer tonight, and you guys are probably S.O.L. It's brewed by the Lazy Magnolia Brewing Co. in Kiln, MS. It's called Southern Pecan - The Original Pecan Nut Brown Ale. It's brewed with roasted pecans. It's similar to an English brown. It reminds me of Newcastle but with a little more body and flavor. It's pretty good stuff.

Just to keep this official, I've been meaning to ask if anybody here got those three nice Matsushita 12AX7s that went on eBay this past weekend? I was a day late and a dollar short. Really, they went for more than I would have wanted to pay anyway; I've been getting them for around $5 each plus shipping, but they looked good and tested strong. Somebody got a nice trio of tubes. Of course, I could always go and pick up the one Matshushita that's on eBay at the moment for the low, low price of $89.95. But hey, it's not just a Matsushita - it is a Japanese Mullard!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've passed on dozens of the Matsushita 12AX7s. There have been some dandy lots going for cheap. I just don't have gas for them.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Yah, I'm walking around with a limp myself.
> 
> What's going on Joe? How are your rectifier tubes?



Hehe...actually I've got 2 nice NOS rectumfriers. One is the Mullard GZ34 and the other is a BEL. Both perform nicely their saggy duties. I'm just wait'n on the saggier one 5V4G. Should be cool but hopefully not too loose hehe.:Ohno:


----------



## thetragichero

purchased three NOS 12AV7s (two GE, one RCA) for six bucks shipped on ebay for the deluxe tweed ceriatone clone i will purchase in a couple months (it uses one 12AY7 and one 12AX7)
some of the people on their forum said it can be a bit too gainy, and i'll only use it for cleans anyway, so i figured no sense in passing up on a good deal!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hehe...actually I've got 2 nice NOS rectumfriers. One is the Mullard GZ34 and the other is a BEL. Both perform nicely their saggy duties. I'm just wait'n on the saggier one 5V4G. Should be cool but hopefully not too loose hehe.:Ohno:



Just think? You can have a sag switch on the back of your amp that switches between a choke and a resistor. What if you had one that controlled two tube sockets? One saggy rectifier tube and one really saggy rectifier tube. Just turn amp off, flip the switch and ta-da, instant lovely saggy sag. Wonderful, drop the panties sustain and harmonics. Hello Gary Moore.

<Another Maximus Mod, trademark protected.>


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just think? You can have a sag switch on the back of your amp that switches between a choke and a resistor. What if you had one that controlled two tube sockets? One saggy rectifier tube and one really saggy rectifier tube. Just turn amp off, flip the switch and ta-da, instant lovely saggy sag. Wonderful, drop the panties sustain and harmonics. Hello Gary Moore.
> 
> <Another Maximus Mod, trademark protected.>



I have always wanted to have enough sag for her to drop the panties.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys I was checking out on one of my tube sites and noticed a lot of "Brimar" tubes. Have any of you had any experience with these? They seem kinda expensive ranging from $60-$100+ a tube.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys I was checking out on one of my tube sites and noticed a lot of "Brimar" tubes. Have any of you had any experience with these? They seem kinda expensive ranging from $60-$100+ a tube.



No not yet...the price is a bit steep. I'd like to try just 1 in V1 and see but I'm willing to bet they are overpriced for what you get. That opinion is more a guess though and not fact...yet.

If you try one I'll sure be interested in what you think and how they compare...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> No not yet...the price is a bit steep. I'd like to try just 1 in V1 and see but I'm willing to bet they are overpriced for what you get. That opinion is more a guess though and not fact...yet.
> 
> If you try one I'll sure be interested in what you think and how they compare...



Thanks Joe. But as you said that price is a little steep. I dont see myself buying one for 100 bucks when I can call up Marty and know what I am getting.


----------



## solarburn

Damn! I should have tried to be more persuasive hehe. I don't ever hear him mention these too much. Probably cause there are great alternatives for less. I'll post a pic here of some I was checking out at one time.






NOTE: After spending $$$$ on tooling and various prototypes, we have fitted Special Grade Flying Leads tubes with Custom Bakelite Bases developed in-house. It is a multi-step, labor intensive process. Each lead is straightened and cleaned to ensure perfect fusion with the base pins in the soldering bath. Process is painstakingly slow, so we will be adding a few tubes at a time to the inventory. 

Tubes are Plug & Play, Ready to Use, fitted with our Custom made Bakelite Bases (INTL Patent Application in Process).

Brand New MINT NOS NIB Rare 1960 BRIMAR CV4035 Box Plate Military tubes. CV4035 Flying Lead is a Premium Grade, High Reliability Long Life version of ECC83/CV492/CV4004/6057/12AX7 valves (Click Here). Etched STC Rochester Plant Date Codes. Made in England. Labels are a bit fragile on these tubes since the tubes can rub against the cardboard cone inside the box.

CV4035 premium grade version of the late 1950s-early 1960s Box Plate CV492 aka CV4004 is one of the best from Brimar in the ECC83 types (click Larger Photo). 

Tested and matched on Top of the Line Calibrated Hickok 580 Lab Grade Tester recently calibrated by late Chris Haedt. 

Single Tube = $100. Select 2 for a Matched Pair or 4 for a Matched Quad. Even odd number of tubes will be matched.


----------



## BluesRocker

What is with those bases on the bottom of the tubes? I dont think they would fit in my VM.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> What is with those bases on the bottom of the tubes? I dont think they would fit in my VM.



They have these on all their Brimar AX7's listed I see. I'm not really sure what the deal is regaeding popping them in. TM states they are plug and play so I'm taking that to mean they pop right in. I would email them though and find out before I bought one. You know tell them what amp I have and do those bases cause fit problems...

Marty may know...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> They have these on all their Brimar AX7's listed I see. I'm not really sure what the deal is regaeding popping them in. TM states they are plug and play so I'm taking that to mean they pop right in. I would email them though and find out before I bought one. You know tell them what amp I have and do those bases cause fit problems...
> 
> Marty may know...



Well. I doubt I will buy one but by the looks of them I doubt they would fit.


----------



## solarburn

I won't be buying either. If I get around to it I'll shoot them an email here in the next 15 minutes and we'll see what they say for shits & giggles...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I won't be buying either. If I get around to it I'll shoot them an email here in the next 15 minutes and we'll see what they say for shits & giggles...



Yeah ask what kind of tone they give, if they even know that.


----------



## solarburn

I shot them an email BR. I'll let you know what they say just so we know...for curiosity sake...


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Joe. They will probably blow rainbows up your ass.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah ask what kind of tone they give, if they even know that.



I found this info somewhere else...

Type CV4035 made by STC/Brimar of England. Internally, they are
identical to the Brimar CV4004=12AX7/ECC83, normal size and shape,
but they don't have any pins! Instead, they have nine wire leads.
I have read an old spec sheet on these and the story is that they
thought these valves were so reliable that they would NEVER need
replacing.

Here's what that looks like...


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Thanks Joe. They will probably blow rainbows up your ass.



I'm hoping for the "platinum" blow hehe.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I found this info somewhere else...
> 
> Type CV4035 made by STC/Brimar of England. Internally, they are
> identical to the Brimar CV4004=12AX7/ECC83, normal size and shape,
> but they don't have any pins! Instead, they have nine wire leads.
> I have read an old spec sheet on these and the story is that they
> thought these valves were so reliable that they would NEVER need
> replacing.



Never need replacing, eh? That is a very bold statement.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Never need replacing, eh? That is a very bold statement.


 
I added a pic above to the description. Check it out...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I added a pic above to the description. Check it out...



That looks like a spider tube. Maybe thats what Line 6 has been using as the Spider Valve.


----------



## solarburn

Those are some expensive lil' spiders hehe.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those are some expensive lil' spiders hehe.



Yes. And I hate spiders. So they would prolly get smashed over here at my house.


----------



## solarburn

Me too. Creepy lil' bastids!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Me too. Creepy lil' bastids!



Ya, I cant stand those little buggers. I dont care if it is the size of a pencil tip. I will jump and scream like a girl. Then I will kill it. I hate bugs. They creep me out. haha


----------



## MartyStrat54

Brimars can be had for a cheaper price. 30strings did okay scoring Brimars, but he wasn't knocked out over how they sounded. If I remember right, he was running Mullards in his V1 slots on several amps. He was using the Brimars in back slot positions.

If I recall, he was even using one for the PI, which is fine, but I told him if it was me I would move the tubes around. 

If I were to buy a $100 tube from a tube store, I'd never be able to sell it. I have to continue to find bulk sales and then do the testing and then I know what I have. 

I have said this many times. When I sell tubes to forum members, I don't make much off of the tubes. It's getting harder and harder to find good buys on tubes that people want. What's funny is you can get almost any other modern tube as a NIB from EBAY, except for 12AX7's. If you get one of those NIB it is very high if it is a good brand like Telefunken. If I wanted a 6AU6, there are hundreds of them for a very low price. I think we have rounded the corner on the final days of 12AX7's. I mean how many more can there be?


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> purchased three NOS 12AV7s (two GE, one RCA) for six bucks shipped on ebay for the deluxe tweed ceriatone clone i will purchase in a couple months (it uses one 12AY7 and one 12AX7)
> some of the people on their forum said it can be a bit too gainy, and i'll only use it for cleans anyway, so i figured no sense in passing up on a good deal!



Dude, before you buy, check out a few kits. You can come out a lot cheaper than buying a pre-built Ceriatone 5E3. If you can solder at all, you can build a 5E3. Hell, I used scavenged parts and a Weber schematic & layout to build my 5E3x2 and it's a hell of an amp. I ended up with $150 or so in it, and $50 of that was the OT. I built mine in an old Crate 2x8 combo chassis. If you have any friends in the music business, you can pick up some great stuff off the junkpile.

Here's a good source of parts - great deals on the Magnetic Components transformers - they look old, they sound old, and they perform very well. You can also pick up the caps here but look elsewhere for resisitors.

Magnetic Components Inc. Transformers for Fender and Marshall Tube Amps

Here's the Weber schematic and layout for the 5E3:

https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_50a.htm#5E3


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Ya, I cant stand those little buggers. I dont care if it is the size of a pencil tip. I will jump and scream like a girl. Then I will kill it. I hate bugs. They creep me out. haha



Are you little girly men afraid of a little spider? Here, I just went and found one of my pets hiding under my wife's little Amish pine bench. Cute, isn't she?






I keep a spray bottle of isopropyl alcohol and a bic lighter handy. Call in the napalm and bye bye Charlie.


----------



## solarburn

:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Are you little girly men afraid of a little spider? Here, I just went and found one of my pets hiding under my wife's little Amish pine bench. Cute, isn't she?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep a spray bottle of isopropyl alcohol and a bic lighter handy. Call in the napalm and bye bye Charlie.



I LOVE it. "Call in the napalm and bye bye Charlie." Oh that's funny.  I could see you doing that with distinguished house guest present. Oh don't mind me Queen Elizabeth "Click, click...SWOOSH." I thought I'd kill it before it crawled up your leg.

Damn. That is one healthy spider. I'd hate to have that crawl on my chest at night. Could you kill it with a BB Gun or would you have to use a 22?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, when the Queen is over, we use rosewater-scented alcohol and an Italian Colibri lighter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got some Holland made Mini Watts today from Lima, Peru. I will test them tomorrow. I hope they are all nice V1's. I've both from the seller twice and they were all good tubes. His shipping was slow this time for whatever reason.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-What amps are you running the German Lorenz and Mini Watt in?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-What amps are you running the German Lorenz and Mini Watt in?



I've got the Lorenz in V1 of the NT and the mini-watt in V1 of the Monza. I may switch those around amp wise. The Lorenz is a feel good tasty tube. Like a Telefunken is. Real dynamic. The mini-watt's right there too but I think I like the Lorenz's character a bit more. I haven't tried it in the Monza yet. 

I seriously need to get that A/B/Y switch so I can run both together. Those are some bad ass blues/rock amps. If players can't get that Night Train to sound good with decent toobs/speaker/guitar then I blame the player. Its no slouch next to the Monza now running it at 15 watts in thick mode. With guitar roll off I can get a decent enough clean so no need to have to toggle over to the bright channel or voicing. So I run both as dedicated 1 channel amps using guitar volume for blues & rock. When I get to posting vids I'll prove it to ya'll hehe. 

They will keep me go'n until I can get a plexi.

I'm really thinking bout them Black powder speakers you been praising lately.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Are you little girly men afraid of a little spider? Here, I just went and found one of my pets hiding under my wife's little Amish pine bench. Cute, isn't she?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I keep a spray bottle of isopropyl alcohol and a bic lighter handy. Call in the napalm and bye bye Charlie.



Nice! This is what happens when I see a spider in my house. I have had to make a few renovations to the house such as, new windows, doors and have made rooms bigger do to walls being knocked out. But hey it works.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, those Lonestar strats are MIM now. I thought that price sounded too good to be true. Same guitar, though. I'm not sure if the MIM thing is a deal-breaker or not. I'm going to Nashvegas in a weekend or two. Maybe they'll have one at GC or one of the other stores that I can check out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, those Lonestar strats are MIM now. I thought that price sounded too good to be true. Same guitar, though. I'm not sure if the MIM thing is a deal-breaker or not. I'm going to Nashvegas in a weekend or two. Maybe they'll have one at GC or one of the other stores that I can check out.



That's what I thought. The price was to low for an AM Strat. Well good luck on that. The MIM isn't a piece of junk.

While your there, see if they have a Gary Moors SIG Les Paul with a P90 in the neck and an over wound Burstbucker 3 in the bridge. MSRP is $2199. I'm curious if a man can get one for less money at the right store.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've got the Lorenz in V1 of the NT and the mini-watt in V1 of the Monza.
> 
> I'm really thinking bout them Black powder speakers you been praising lately.



Thanks, I know you had posted trying them, but I didn't know if they were doing any permanent duty. Yeah I like the Lorenz. I tried it and it sounded really good. It's not one that you will see very often. I think rare is the word I'm looking for. Lorenz got a lot of MULARD tubes and relabled them. Those are more common, but the German made ones from the actual Lorenz factory are hard to find. That tube was from a lot I purchased from Germany.

Yeah, I'm spoiled by the Black Powders. They do have a ballsy sound to them. The other cab is not going to work out. It's too thin sounding. I'll have to see what I can do. I can't use Black Powders, because this is a 16 ohm cab. I might have to use Swamp Thangs. They are punchy, but they are 2dB hotter than the Texas Heats. That's really pushing it. I could try the Governors with the Texas Heats, or the Wizards with the Governors. (This is why you never solder wires until you find a nice pairing.)


----------



## solarburn

Here is another take on some of the tubes we have tried and judged for ourselves in our own amps. I'm giving the link cause its a bit of info:

The Big 12ax7 Tube Test :: TGP Webzine


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I think I read that already. I didn't agree with much he said, but I've never rolled preamp tubes in a Vox, either. It's hard to predict how a tube will sound from one type of amp to another. EL84's color the tone a lot differently than other power tubes, too. 

Then there's the question of which version of the Mullard, RCA, Telefunken, etc. was he using? There's too many unknowns for this to prove anything to me. And really, do you trust someone's tube reviews who has never heard a Mullard before? 

Lastly, it seemed like he contradicted himself several times. He starts out on the Mullard with "I'd never heard one of these before, so I was interested to see what all the fuss was about, and I wasn't disappointed." Then, at the end of the Mullard review, "Overall, I'd say this is an excellent tube for clean tones, but the overdrive left me feeling a bit flat."

Maybe we should compile all our tube shootout comments into one concise opinion and sell it. I think any one of us could do better than that.

I think I may have to hunt this dude up - I have some RCA 12AX7's that I need to move.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for your comments RATT. I believe I have commented on this before, because I remember the burning sensation coming out of my ass. 

You are exactly right. The first thing that struck me was, "Also, the tube proved to be quite noisy, with a noticeable hum and hiss coming from the amp at idle." 

It's a 45 year old tube. You probably got one Mullard to test and it's bad.

The other key issue that RATT was pointing to was what was in V2? We all know the effect of a Raytheon BP in V2. If he is using NOS in V1 and CP in V2 that's a problem unless the little VOX just uses one gain tube and that maybe the case. 

It's obvious that some of the NOS tubes he tested were not one's I would sell. And how can you say without a doubt that the VOX doesn't have some hum or hiss when cranked?

And I remember the part about the RCA's. Hey, they made some good tubes and the red orange labels were not some of them. This guy however says he is going to just buy a whole bunch of them. How silly. 

I've said this before. I would use the last version of an RCA in my amp over CP, but there is a long list of tubes that are better.

Now, as far as NOS Tung-Sol 12AX7's? I'm not a big fan of them either. They are just not that musical sounding. Sort of the Sovtek of NOS 12AX7's. Now Tung-Sol made some good tubes, but I have to question the 12AX7's.

There's more I could say about how he raped the Philips and then ranked it in the upper half, but I don't want to waste anymore energy.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah it doesn't change my findings although I will admit my taste for certain tubes in particular amp circuits changes here and there. I've never rolled in a Vox AC30CC2 so I can't say one way or the other.

I can say however between 3 amps I have I sure as hell know what I like and what I don't and yes there are differences across each but the inherent character of the tube is there regardless of the circuit especially when we are talking a V1 contributer. I can see where an already bright amp may translate a thinness in its OD section with a tube that is also voiced bright. 

I will agree with his placing of the JJ 83S. In my amps it sounds the same in V1. Dull, flat an uninspiring. It doesn't matter to me if others like them in their amps. I'm playing mine not their's hehe.

I appreciate other opines though even if they differ from mine. His findings are fine with me. I still like what I like cause I hear what I hear hehe.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for your comments RATT. I believe I have commented on this before, because I remember the burning sensation coming out of my ass.
> 
> You are exactly right. The first thing that struck me was, "Also, the tube proved to be quite noisy, with a noticeable hum and hiss coming from the amp at idle."
> 
> It's a 45 year old tube. You probably got one Mullard to test and it's bad.
> 
> The other key issue that RATT was pointing to was what was in V2? We all know the effect of a Raytheon BP in V2. If he is using NOS in V1 and CP in V2 that's a problem unless the little VOX just uses one gain tube and that maybe the case.
> 
> It's obvious that some of the NOS tubes he tested were not one's I would sell. And how can you say without a doubt that the VOX doesn't have some hum or hiss when cranked?
> 
> And I remember the part about the RCA's. Hey, they made some good tubes and the red orange labels were not some of them. This guy however says he is going to just buy a whole bunch of them. How silly.
> 
> I've said this before. I would use the last version of an RCA in my amp over CP, but there is a long list of tubes that are better.
> 
> Now, as far as NOS Tung-Sol 12AX7's? I'm not a big fan of them either. They are just not that musical sounding. Sort of the Sovtek of NOS 12AX7's. Now Tung-Sol made some good tubes, but I have to question the 12AX7's.
> 
> There's more I could say about how he raped the Philips and then ranked it in the upper half, but I don't want to waste anymore energy.



Great points Marty.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> There's more I could say about how he raped the Philips and then ranked it in the upper half, but I don't want to waste anymore energy.



The Telefunken comments were what rankled me. I've always found the Telefunken smooth plate to be an exceptionally smooth tube with sweet highs and tight lows. The ribbed plate a little less so with more midrange punch, but never an ice pick in the bunch. This sounds like pure drivel.

Compared to the Mullard, this tube had a noticeably less open sound to it. Balancing this was a slightly more harmonically rich tone, with a lot of chimey Vox clean, although it quickly gets into ice-pick territory when you start to attack the strings (more so than any of the other tubes I tried). The bass was again very tight, and didn't muddy up as I pushed the amp toward overdrive, although there was noticeably less string definition across the board. Clean headroom was about average compared to other tubes. The overdrive tone was still quite thin, although not as bad as the Mullard, and the harmonic richness proved to be a bit too much. Whilst the OD had a nice singin tone to it for single-note runs, it proved to be a bit too complex for chord work, which made anything more than powerchords sound quite messy. Overall, this was a very quiet tube, with only a little audible hum.
I wouldn't complain if someone gave me a few of these, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get a hold of them. Definitely better than the new production tubes, but toward the bottom end of the NOS spectrum.

He must buy his Telefunkens on the wrong side of the tracks. You know what it sounds like? If he's going to be a tube hound, he needs to ditch that 2007 Vox reissue and buy any all-tube Marshall. I believe that Marshall amps are the best platform out there to really hear the sonic differences between tubes, outside of a hi-fi amp and preamp setup. 

I hate to say it, but in my Fender-type amps, the tubes don't seem to make nearly the difference in tone. You can plug just about anything in them and they still sound like a Fender. And really, is a Vox AC30 top boost going to sound like a chimey Vox AC30 top boost without an EF86 pentode in the preamp?


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, thanks for the post. Don't take any of this bashing personally. I too like reading other people's opinions. It's also fun to pick them apart when the other person obviously doesn't know his ass from a bicycle.

Yeah, I thought the JJ was the only one he got right, too.

Just wondering, did he go into this knowing that the GE 5751 was a lower gain tube? I even thought his review of the Tung-Sol RI was unfair, which really makes me think he must have some problem with his amp or speakers. I've still got a couple of them that I use every now and then when I get a new amp and I want to try it out awhile before I put the good glass in, and I'm usually pretty impressed by how they sound.


----------



## solarburn

Well I just got done rolling my RCA12AX7A short grey plates in V1 of my Monza. It was one that Marty sent me as my first experiences with NOS. Since then it has always been a warm, round dynamic tube, one of my all time favs. In the Monza those attributes don't translate as well as they do in my Marshall or NT. Why...because the Monza is already a warm fat sounding amp. The NT and DSL are brighter amps.

Now I just got done rolling it against the mini-watt I recently purchased from Marty and I have to say it ripped the RCA a new one as far as how much more open and singing it was in the Monza. The Monza really likes tubes like this and that's why the Telefunken sounded so nice in it too. Both it and the mini-watt at volume sing and articulate like nobodies business. The RCA in this example sounded good but the right tool for the job is the mini-watt according to my ears, my taste. The RCA just didn't breathe or sing enough in the right frequencies. Different voices.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, thanks for the post. Don't take any of this bashing personally. I too like reading other people's opinions. It's also fun to pick them apart when the other person obviously doesn't know his ass from a bicycle.
> 
> Yeah, I thought the JJ was the only one he got right, too.
> 
> Just wondering, did he go into this knowing that the GE 5751 was a lower gain tube? I even thought his review of the Tung-Sol RI was unfair, which really makes me think he must have some problem with his amp or speakers. I've still got a couple of them that I use every now and then when I get a new amp and I want to try it out awhile before I put the good glass in, and I'm usually pretty impressed by how they sound.



Don't think for a second his findings didn't make my cheeks pucker hehe. I calmed down and let myself be objective again so I divorced my own findings from his. I get chaffed just like the rest of ya's!

I don't take this stuff on myself so no worries. However I did want my Bruther's thoughts on it...


----------



## RiverRatt

I seem to chafe easily these days. I don't understand - the doctor changed my meds and everything. Manic Depression is a Fustrating Mess.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well some of these dudes have really nice jobs with some music related media and someone up above says, "Hey we want you to do a tube article." Their "guy" doesn't know a tube from rocks in his pants, yet he has to do the article.

It usually consists of looking on the Internet for about an hour and taking that crammed mess and using it in your article. (He probably didn't know what a 5751 is or what its spec's are.) (He probably didn't pick a good amp as a test bed.) He was only interested in changing out V1.

Good amps plus good tubes equal great sound. I have yet to have a Telefunken, Mini Watt or Amperex be returned on the basis of poor tone. Or a Mullard for that fact. Before you use a tube in a test you need to make sure it is working properly. That's another thing. Who supplied him with his tubes?

He must have been looking at a Fender site since he got a boner for RCA tubes. I'm surprised he didn't test a 7025. He might have creamed.

I wish I had his job.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, now I'm getting Miniwatt fever. That's one of the ones I really need in my arsenal. I need a Miniwatt, a BEL, a Siemens-Halske, a Brimar, a Mazda, and a Valvo to make my tube experience complete (or close to it). The rest I can wait on. At least I can take comfort in the fact that I own the largest Sonotone collection on the forum


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, now I'm getting Miniwatt fever. That's one of the ones I really need in my arsenal. I need a Miniwatt, a BEL, a Siemens-Halske, a Brimar, a Mazda, and a Valvo to make my tube experience complete (or close to it). The rest I can wait on. At least I can take comfort in the fact that I own the largest Sonotone collection on the forum





Get a mini-watt. Nice tube!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep. I think I only have one or two Sonotone's. I've never had anyone interested in them. I would of had three, but one was bad. The side getters were prone to microphonics and shorting out.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

yo yo Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey I is here, yo yo.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey I had some tube questions. You still take them?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sure. I charge $5 a piece.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

A RCA black plate is different sounding than a Raytheon one, right?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes. A lot of people like the RCA's but they are completely different than a Raytheon Black Plate. The construction is different and the coatings are different. If you read this thread, you'll know we all love the Raytheon. I think everyone should have a couple in their collection.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Now from what I've read, for most applications you use it in V2. Why is that?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the trick is to use a "high gain" Raytheon BP in the V2 slot. The BP is just one of those tubes that pairs with the V1 tube really well. The BP by itself is a warm, midrange sounding tube.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well, I think I have saved up enough money to buy some tubes from you. For V1 you seem to recommend different tubes, but you like the Telefunken. What does it bring?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You still there?


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are quite a few tubes for V1. The Telefunken seems to please the most people. It is a solid choice. Now I like other tubes as well. 1960's Mullards and Amperex (Holland) are a few of my favorites and so is the Mini Watt. 

The Trash/Metal crowd loves the Mullard's and the hot blues/classic rock crowd loves the Mini Watt and Amperex. The Telefunken goes good with modern rock, jazz rock and most genres of music.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Those Mini Watts sound good. How's your stock?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very low. They are hard to find in good condition. I think I have five or six in my inventory.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I guess if I want some I need to order quick. Now from talking to you, you have a good supply of the Raytheons?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'm sitting on about 40 of those.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

So a Mini Watt in V1, BP in V2 and a Sylvania in V3. Now what was that you were saying about the Sylvanias?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got a bunch of Sylvania Gray Plates that are lopsided, high gain tubes. "Perfect" for use in the PI. I love what it did to my old school amps. Added harmonic content and more sing off of the strings.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your line up looks great.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I'm wanting to get a double set so it will last a good while.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Smart move.

Once you start rolling, you will want to pick up an extra tube here and there.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I'll send you a PM and you can tell me what I need to do. You take PayPal?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I do. Yeah send me a PM and I'll get you squared away.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> So a Mini Watt in V1, BP in V2 and a Sylvania in V3. Now what was that you were saying about the Sylvanias?



Good picks. Took me a few combinations to arrive. Good to see the rolling here is getting others there sooner.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Once you start rolling, you will want to pick up an extra tube here and there.



Hi. I am BluesRocker and I am a tube rolling addict. I need help.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hi. I am BluesRocker and I am a tube rolling addict. I need help.



Only another TRA knows how to help...


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Only another TRA knows how to help...



Whats the cure? Or is there one?


----------



## RiverRatt

Ack! I'm short an amp. My old Harmony that I've been trying to move took a dump tonight. It had a little preamp tube sounding noise last night. I put a new preamp tube lineup in it awhile ago and when I turned it on, zilch. The lights are on but nobody's home. Put the old ones back in, still nothing. I couldn't even get a pop out of the speakers when I was poking around in it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Thanks guys. I was going over some of the info I got on here. I read towards the back and man, there is a lot of reading. I did pick up on the black plate though. You guys really like them. I want to say that reading this thread was an immense help for me. Thanks to all who commented. I'm sure others feel the same way. I used to lurk the pages of this thread and look, now I'm hanging with you guys. I should have done it a long time ago.

Thanks again.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Whats the cure? Or is there one?



Well, cash flow (or lack thereof) tends to slow me down a bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Ack! I'm short an amp. My old Harmony that I've been trying to move took a dump tonight. It had a little preamp tube sounding noise last night. I put a new preamp tube lineup in it awhile ago and when I turned it on, zilch. The lights are on but nobody's home. Put the old ones back in, still nothing. I couldn't even get a pop out of the speakers when I was poking around in it.



Sorry to hear that. It sounds like the power tranny took a dump.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Are any of the tubes lighting up?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear that. It sounds like the power tranny took a dump.



Wonder if there is any residue of a small dookie in there?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, cash flow (or lack thereof) tends to slow me down a bit.



That can be applied to more than tube buying. :eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Whats the cure? Or is there one?



We help each other buy only the good ones and stay away from the bad ones hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ack! I'm short an amp. My old Harmony that I've been trying to move took a dump tonight. It had a little preamp tube sounding noise last night. I put a new preamp tube lineup in it awhile ago and when I turned it on, zilch. The lights are on but nobody's home. Put the old ones back in, still nothing. I couldn't even get a pop out of the speakers when I was poking around in it.



Bummer.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear that. It sounds like the power tranny took a dump.



Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. The plate voltage is up there where it needs to be (around 400v) but the heaters are only reading at around 25mV. Surprisingly, they are still glowing pretty well. I'm going to get it on the bench for a more thorough going over tomorrow, but I'm not expecting miracles. I can probably use a Fender tranny - one like my Super/Concert series uses would probably work. It's got pretty much the same tube compliment, SS rectified, etc.


----------



## BluesRocker

Was that the one that you just got not too long ago Alan?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. The one I had on Craigslist. The one I was going to turn into a Strat. Oh, well. I guess it'll still be a steal even if I have to put a new PT in it. Plus, the Ampeg is still rocking hard! My Marshall has been feeling neglected lately.


----------



## BluesRocker

Bummer. That sucks. But hey it is still a project. Thats what projects are for. Just trying to cheer ya up in case you were bummed out about it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

There is usually a crusty brown ring at the base of the PT.

It died.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man that's nasty. No wonder they stink when they go bad. Sounds like someone could use some Charmin.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty, did you tell me what Ratt's name was?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I did. It's LeRoy Wadworth Cleveland Alan Murray. His friends call him Alan.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He's a southern boy.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Okay, I see. Well Alan, I'm sorry that one of the babies took a dump. I know that sounds funny, but I know it isn't funny for you. I hate to see any amp go down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had some tubes that didn't pass the exam. They got an F and the seller has been notified. I hate it when people try to pass off bad tubes. It's like they think if they put a bad one in a group of five, I won't find it. Gee, maybe I should write a disclaimer and send it to these sellers so they will know that the tubes are going to be tested. (I doubt if it would make any difference.)


----------



## BluesRocker

It prolly wouldnt make a difference Marty. But I can find them then kick their ass for ya.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess everybody left.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> It prolly wouldnt make a difference Marty. But I can find them then kick their ass for ya.



Now that's what I'm talking about. Thank you for your support.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, like I said, I got it halfway figuring that I'd end up having to do some work to it. It's going to end up being one of those that I end up keeping. Especially if I'm going to have to put it up on blocks and take the tranny out (southern boy, remember?). By the way, you forgot to put "Colonel" in front of my name.

*Colonel *LeRoy Wadworth Cleveland Alan Murray. I live on a lovely plantation where we raise dogs, cats, children and hell.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How hot are you running in V1? I'm running the "Stout Brothers."


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I guess everybody left.



I'm sorting my tubes. I have a bunch of CP that were loose in a drawer and I am checking them to see if they work right or if they met their demise as I opened and closed that drawer rolling them around in there.

I don't need to say my NOS get special quarters for safe keeping do I...?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now that's what I'm talking about. Thank you for your support.



Well no problem. It is always good to help a friend in need. Now do you want it old school gangster style with a baseball bat or quick and easy with the 45?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn I forgot about that. Colonel LeRoy. The Colonel wants to see you pronto.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Well no problem. It is always good to help a friend in need. Now do you want it old school gangster style with a baseball bat or quick and easy with the 45?



Nowadays, I'm into the 45 (or 40). I used to love to tumble, but now it's like my little friend is in my belt holster. "Do you want to see my little friend?"

Yeah you shoot 'em and make sure they fall into an empty wading pool. You stick a knife into the side of the pool and you wrap the body up and put it into the trunk and then go dump it some place good.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## solarburn




----------



## solarburn

:Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

:cool2:


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Damn, that's harsh. This is what happens to people that you buy bad tubes from?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nowadays, I'm into the 45 (or 40). I used to love to tumble, but now it's like my little friend is in my belt holster. "Do you want to see my little friend?"
> 
> Yeah you shoot 'em and make sure they fall into an empty wading pool. You stick a knife into the side of the pool and you wrap the body up and put it into the trunk and then go dump it some place good.



Well what I usually do is pop them once in the head and 2 in the chest. Then the bloody part comes in. I use a clamp to wrap around the spine and hook a chain up to the clamp and a cinder block up to the chain and drop them off in the deepest part of the lake.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What Joe said.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Down in the south, you become "Gator Bait." The body is never found. Right Colonel?


----------



## MartyStrat54

How about being fed to piranha? There goes the flesh and the bones will sink and rot.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Isn't there some stupid horror movie out right now about giant piranha fish attacking the beach goers?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe I half caught something about that. Oh boy, another "JAWS."


----------



## BluesRocker

How many times has that damn fish died?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Note to all lurkers. Join the forum and then join us. T N L used to be a lurker (and a few other things), but look, now he's contributing on this thread. You can do it too.

LET'S TALK PREAMP TUBES!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is your amp sounding tired? Does it just not have that Slash tone anymore? You need to perk it up with a new set of preamp tubes. If you are using current production, that's fine, just less choices. If you want to find out about real tube rolling, we have some of the finest rollers around and more everyday.

Come roll some tubes with us.

This was a paid announcement for, "Preamp Tubes?-Who, What, When Where, Why and How?"


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I was gone for a while, but now I see you are advertising.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The neon lights get put up tomorrow.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey, let's go over to the boob thread.


----------



## BluesRocker

Remember not to put up the strobes Marty. Have to keep in mind there are people that have epileptic seizures like Johnny D. We didnt know it at the time. It was an accident.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You sure are catching on fast. When all else fails, there's always the girls over at the boob thread. 

Yeah, let's go over there. My work is done here it looks like.


----------



## thrawn86

Neon lights got you thinking, eh TNL?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah yer right. Note to myself, "No strobe lights. People can die."


----------



## MartyStrat54

THRAWN-I got T N L to join the DSL Conspiracy.


----------



## thrawn86

I saw that. We're up to 85 members now.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

okay, looks like something is going on over here still.


----------



## thrawn86

CharvelDan joined too.....I think he did it initially to mess with me after I defended the 'newer' amps of Marshall. But I see him posting about 'maybe owning a DSL' now...a big leap for him.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yes, I did join the DSL group, thank you very much.


----------



## thrawn86

Glad to have you TNL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man that rocks. I guess it's safe to say that it is the premier group.


----------



## thrawn86

And let there be no doubt: NOS valves do wonderfully in DSL's. I was literally in awe of how my amp sounded after a NOS retube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just think if the forum doubles in size. Holy cow! What sort of traffic do you think there would be over at the DSL group?


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> And let there be no doubt: NOS valves do wonderfully in DSL's. I was literally in awe of how my amp sounded after a NOS retube.



Thank you for that warm, glowing plug for Martimus Maximus.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I just ordered a six pack off of Marty. Two identical sets for my JCM.


----------



## thrawn86

You bet.

We've got three pages of discussions on the Conspiracy....some haven't seen any activity in quite a while.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And I appreciate the business.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> You bet.
> 
> We've got three pages of discussions on the Conspiracy....some haven't seen any activity in quite a while.



I need to go over there and hit some of them. I get busy and I forget that there is "another place" I can go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm heading over rover.


----------



## thrawn86

I'll probably be checking out in a few, so I'll see you guys soon.


----------



## 66 galaxie

What's going on over here? I saw some bright lights and something about DSL's and tubes and such. So I joined some conspiracy and now I could use some schooling on tubes.
I read about the first 20pages of this and my head started spinning. (felt kind of cool...) I have never done anything with tubes before. This thread is very interesting. I think I could get into these nos tubes. I need to learn about this, any takers?


----------



## solarburn

66 galaxie said:


> What's going on over here? I saw some bright lights and something about DSL's and tubes and such. So I joined some conspiracy and now I could use some schooling on tubes.
> I read about the first 20pages of this and my head started spinning. (felt kind of cool...) I have never done anything with tubes before. This thread is very interesting. I think I could get into these nos tubes. I need to learn about this, any takers?



What amp do you want to try them in?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Welcome 66. I've seen some of your guitars. Nice!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey 66! I left you a welcome message on your home page. You didn't mention your amps, but in the Explorer thread I can see what looks like a four hole and a DSL. I'm taking a stab and saying that they are both 100 watt amps? A 1959 and a DSL100. I couldn't make out the other head sitting on top of the 5150.

I will tell you right now, if the tubes are weak in any of your amps, you will freak out with some "different" tubes. By different, I mean used old stock or NOS tubes. I have a 1978 JMP 2203. The tubes in it make it the beast that it is. 

The main thing you want in that four hole is a stout V1 and V2 tube and then a special lopsided phase inverter tube. This tube helps establish a more asymmetrical waveform and it is rich in even order harmonics. Your amp will sing. 

Looking forward to having you on the forum.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Hey guys, similar to 66 galaxy here. My JMP had in it JJs which sounded a bit lifeless so i bought last week a TAD 12ax7a and put it in V1. It sounds very musical to my ears now than ever before. 

The bug just bit me...!

Quick impulse buy on ebay last night got me a pair of Bugle Boy/Phillips/Amperex 7025a/12ax7/ecc83 cheap. Canadian Electrohome brand. Cant wait till they arrive.
What are some options with what i got? 
Im guessing old 7025a's in v1 and v2 and TAD in v3?

Im particularly interested in the special lopsided phase inverter tube Marty, what is it? 

We mainly play classic rock, early AC/DC stuff, so im sure you gurus here will have an informed answer.
BTW, ive learned soooo much on this forum its unreal. 
Cheers


----------



## Gtarzan81

MartyStrat54 said:


> Down in the south, you become "Gator Bait." The body is never found. Right Colonel?



I grew up in South Florida. I know a few spots this is more than possible.


----------



## RiverRatt

Gtarzan81 said:


> I grew up in South Florida. I know a few spots this is more than possible.



I'm a little too far north for gators. We have armadillos, raccoons, opossums, foxes, bobcats and the occasional panther (southern for "cougar"). 

Here's where we dispose of bodies, stolen cars, guns and other incriminating evidence.


----------



## 66 galaxie

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey 66! I left you a welcome message on your home page. You didn't mention your amps, but in the Explorer thread I can see what looks like a four hole and a DSL. I'm taking a stab and saying that they are both 100 watt amps? A 1959 and a DSL100. I couldn't make out the other head sitting on top of the 5150.
> 
> I will tell you right now, if the tubes are weak in any of your amps, you will freak out with some "different" tubes. By different, I mean used old stock or NOS tubes. I have a 1978 JMP 2203. The tubes in it make it the beast that it is.
> 
> The main thing you want in that four hole is a stout V1 and V2 tube and then a special lopsided phase inverter tube. This tube helps establish a more asymmetrical waveform and it is rich in even order harmonics. Your amp will sing.
> 
> Looking forward to having you on the forum.



Hey Marty,
Yep, 1959 SLP RI
DSL 50
And the other Marshall is a lead 100 Mosfet. :Ohno:
I hardly ever play the big rigs anymore. I have a DSL 201 that I play through all the time. 
I would probably start trying some different tubes in the 201 ( I know, probably not the best choice, but its the one I use all the time.)
I've never been real happy with the clean channel in that one.
I must add that I have never even had the back off any of my amps. So, I am a total novice at this. I would need some step by step help. lol

Thunder, thanks for the kind words. I'm proud to say all of my guitars have been played like crazy. No trailer queens in the bunch. 

Thanks for any help guys!


----------



## MartyStrat54

vintagevoltage351 said:


> Quick impulse buy on ebay last night got me a pair of Bugle Boy/Phillips/Amperex 7025a/12ax7/ecc83 cheap. Canadian Electrohome brand. Cant wait till they arrive.
> What are some options with what i got?
> Im guessing old 7025a's in v1 and v2 and TAD in v3?
> 
> Im particularly interested in the special lopsided phase inverter tube Marty, what is it?
> 
> We mainly play classic rock, early AC/DC stuff, so im sure you gurus here will have an informed answer.
> BTW, ive learned soooo much on this forum its unreal.
> Cheers



Hello. Welcome to the thread. I would run the Electrohome's in V1 and V2. Swap them around to see which way they sound better. Put the TAD in the Phase Inverter position. 

As far as the lopsided PI tube? It can be any good tube that posses high gain and is unbalanced. Some people try to say that you need a balanced PI tube. This is crack talk. The amp isn't balanced to begin with. By adding a lopsided high gain tube, it doesn't suffocate the signal and the unbalanced triodes allow for more even order harmonics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

66 galaxie said:


> Hey Marty,
> Yep, 1959 SLP RI
> DSL 50
> I have a DSL 201 that I play through all the time.
> I would probably start trying some different tubes in the 201
> 
> Thanks for any help guys!



Hey I understand. I love my little 401, but I have all NOS tubes and a different speaker in it.

If you want to go with the 201 and you don't want to spend a lot of money, your best bet is to go with old stock tubes in V1 and V2. You could run new stuff in V3 and V4. Also, if you have the money, I would recommend some better EL84's. Say some Sylvania Black Plates. 

I'll just have to get with you and see what you are wanting to do. Everyone's budget is different.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How hot are you running in V1? I'm running the "Stout Brothers."



I've got one of the untested Mat's in V1, the JRP (36ish) in V2, that Sylvania I got from you in V3, and a regular old Raytheon black plate (28-30ish) in V4. Those Matsushitas have to be in the 30+ range. They just have that feel. I've been digging that ribbed plate Tele, too. It's not as polite as the smooth plate. My smooth plate may be getting weak. It wasn't the strongest in the world when I got it. I think Lori tested it at 1850/1850 when I bought it from her. I really need to get these to you for testing. I've got about ten RCA 12AX7A's that I'd like to move if they have any life left in them.

I can't do my dual JRP in V1 & V2 because I gave one to Joe for the shipping on the OCD. If you run across a good, hot JRP or two let me know. 

I went out and bought some nice cloth for the grill on the 5E3x2 today. I'm determined to get rid of every trace of the Crate cosmetics on that cab.

Would you believe that I lost that 5V4? I boxed up all my big tubes to get ready to ship them for testing, and when I got to the office it wasn't in the box. I hope it fell out in the car somewhere.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm afraid of where we will be by the end of the year. We all may be running 32-32 in V1 and 36-36 in V2.

From the sound of it...you are already doing it.

As I said earlier is this thread. I am slowing inching upward with the tube gain. A year ago, 28-28 would be a V2. Now it's a V1. I have plenty of bombs to try in the V1 slot. It's just I'm happy with what I have in there. My TSL's haven't changed for a long time, because I wasn't playing the TSL 100 or 122 that much. I did put new EH6CA7's in the TSL100. 

So as long as the amp isn't howling, you're fine. 

ALSO-I hope you find the tube. That's spooky.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found it. I put it in one of my 6L6 boxes for safe keeping, then proceeded to forget all about it. Short-term memory loss, ya know.

Yeah, I think I posted before about the high-gainers. I think as long as you keep the V2 tube hotter than the V1, it works pretty well up to a point. I think the ratio between the two tubes matters more than the actual gain. You definitely want the V1 tube to be the weaker of the two. Also, I think around 30-30 on the B&K is as high as I want to go with the PI. I've ran the JRP as the PI tube and there's definitely a point where the gain starts to clip the output signal. It's still punchy, but you start getting more compression and less dynamics.


----------



## RiverRatt

Did I mention that it's fookin' HOT! We had another 100+ day. There's a thunderstorm rumbling around nearby. I hope it drifts over this way. They aren't moving around much. They just sit in one place and rain like hell for about 45 minutes and break up. I don't think I've been dry all day. I hate August. It might stop my heart, but I'm starting to envy those idiots who jump into frozen lakes.


----------



## 66 galaxie

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey I understand. I love my little 401, but I have all NOS tubes and a different speaker in it.
> 
> If you want to go with the 201 and you don't want to spend a lot of money, your best bet is to go with old stock tubes in V1 and V2. You could run new stuff in V3 and V4. Also, if you have the money, I would recommend some better EL84's. Say some Sylvania Black Plates.
> 
> I'll just have to get with you and see what you are wanting to do. Everyone's budget is different.




Hey Marty,
How do you want to work this. Should I pm you, or just kind of give you some ideas of what I would/ should try right here?
I dont have a clue what tubes cost so... If I can afford, I'm ready to try it!
Please advise.
Thanks,
Alex


----------



## MartyStrat54

66 galaxie said:


> hey marty,
> how do you want to work this. Should i pm you, or just kind of give you some ideas of what i would/ should try right here?
> I dont have a clue what tubes cost so... If i can afford, i'm ready to try it!
> Please advise.
> Thanks,
> alex



pm sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did I mention that it's fookin' HOT! We had another 100+ day. There's a thunderstorm rumbling around nearby. I hope it drifts over this way. They aren't moving around much. They just sit in one place and rain like hell for about 45 minutes and break up. I don't think I've been dry all day. I hate August. It might stop my heart, but I'm starting to envy those idiots who jump into frozen lakes.



Well I'm glad you found the tube. It was nothing more than a brain fart on your part. Get used to it. I have.

It's been very hot here. Nobody's tomato's grew right. Mine have leather covers. They look like small pumpkins. We had a very brief thunderstorm last night and it wasn't even even enough moisture to make it humid today. It all vaporized.

It's hot, but I'm not looking forward to winter. I wish winter meant 55 degrees and cloudy. We've had back to back bad winters, so I hope this year will be different.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Initial notice-I will be getting in 12 Mini Watts in the coming days. I will post on the thread when I get them and test them. These all test as good or better than the last ones I got and this means 29-29 and 30-30 type tubes for hot V1 applications. PM me to reserve your tubes and get more info.

The server is whacking out as it turned all caps into all lower case letters.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a new one. I haven't seen Ei tubes re-branded by Radio Shack before. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110574151095


----------



## MM54

On an almost-relevant note, I found today that I have in my box of tubes-that-test-less-than-50% an RCA mini 9-pin (Perhaps a 6AU6? I dunno) that is so poorly assembled that when they put the glass globe onto it, they melted it too far and actually bend the thing out of square. It's kind of funny, and says a bit about the red-label RCA tubes and QC


----------



## 66 galaxie

Well, I went ahead and ordered 4 NOS tubes from Marty. He's a good guy to deal with. 
I will be trying them out in my DSL 201. I'm pretty pumped to give this a go!
I've never changed a tube before, so any tips would be appreciated. 

Of course I will post up results asap.


----------



## solarburn

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoeXHIEbyx0]YouTube - Changing Tubes on Vacuum Tube Amplifiers : Pulling Pre-Amp to Change Tubes on an Amplifier[/ame]

Power tubes...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-QePIj5MSw&feature=related[/ame]

Go to the youtube page on these vids and there is more and more...


----------



## 66 galaxie

Muchas Gracias Solarburn! 
I will be checking this page out!
I see he's talking about biasing in the next segment. This is good, as i know nothing about that either.
Thanks again, i'm off to learn...


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I've got a box ready for you Marty. Now I just have to sell something so I can afford to ship it to you! Got a lot of big tubes in this batch. I've got some 6CG7's for the Ampeg that I need to get checked out. I can't find one of my RCA 12AX7A's and one of the new Matsushitas. I had stuff scattered from hell to breakfast when I was building that amp. I'm sure they are in one of the many boxes of leftover junk.

BTW, do you still want to try the EL34M's?

Joe, be patient with me. I'll get that rectifier to you soon.

Welcome to all the new guys. This place is starting to fill up. Josh, get back over here when you can!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think I've got a box ready for you Marty. Now I just have to sell something so I can afford to ship it to you! Got a lot of big tubes in this batch. I've got some 6CG7's for the Ampeg that I need to get checked out. I can't find one of my RCA 12AX7A's and one of the new Matsushitas. I had stuff scattered from hell to breakfast when I was building that amp. I'm sure they are in one of the many boxes of leftover junk.
> 
> BTW, do you still want to try the EL34M's?
> 
> Joe, be patient with me. I'll get that rectifier to you soon.
> 
> Welcome to all the new guys. This place is starting to fill up. Josh, get back over here when you can!



No worries Alan. Good luck finding them lost ones hehe...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think I've got a box ready for you Marty.
> 
> (Marty), do you still want to try the EL34M's?



Well, I'll keep an eye out for them. You may want to PM me when you mailed them so I'll have a heads up.

No, I think I just go ahead and get some in say a 3. Would that be good? I have been plugging these based on Joe's glowing review of them. I'll take one of Joe's reviews over a dozen of the one's like RCA DUDE. He couldn't tell the difference between a GE and a Mullard, unless he saw the labels. He probably doesn't know Telefunkens have a <> on the bottom either.

What do you guys think? EL34M's in a 3? Or should I go stiffer?


----------



## RiverRatt

Mine are 2's. IMO that numbering scheme is just more Aspen Pittman bullshit. It's basically the same matching system that Mesa uses. If your amp has 2's in it, put 2's back in it and they'll bias up the same. It doesn't have anything to do with breakup or hardness or softness, it's just current draw. Other companies call this "matching". Bias them up to the same percentage of max dissipation and they'll sound the same. I mean if the lower numbers had a softer vacuum or something, they'd probably look about like that 5Y3G that I posted in the power tube thread with the pretty violet highlights. These tubes aren't gassy at all and they sound pretty good. I'm going to send you this pair to try out. You'll be sending tubes back to me anyway so there's zero cost to you, which is better than a $50 gamble on whether you'll like them or not. Hell, if you like them, keep them. As long as my RFT's hold out (which should be at least another 2,000 hours) I won't be needing them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee ALAN your a nice guy. I'll remember that come Christmas time. HO-HO-HO.

(And a HOE for JOE)

Yeah I never bought into that horseshit, but Groove Tubes a la Fender is still pushing that shit. You're right, it's just a current match. I do know that there is a device that can measure the vacuum in a tube, but I doubt if GT spent the money to buy one.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee ALAN your a nice guy. I'll remember that come Christmas time. HO-HO-HO.
> 
> (And a HOE for JOE:lol:)
> 
> Yeah I never bought into that horseshit, but Groove Tubes a la Fender is still pushing that shit. You're right, it's just a current match. I do know that there is a device that can measure the vacuum in a tube, but I doubt if GT spent the money to buy one.



I want...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well sometimes we want things that we aren't supposed to have. I can only recommend the BooB Thread. Oh and they aren't hoe's they are professional adult film entertainers.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well sometimes we want things that we aren't supposed to have. I can only recommend the BooB Thread. Oh and they aren't hoe's they are professional adult film entertainers.



Ain't that the truth!

Send one anyways hehe.

Yes we always have our Bewb thread...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well what I always liked about overseas hookers was the prices and the fact that when you were done, they left...unless you wanted them to make breakfast in the morning.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... Welcome to all the new guys. This place is starting to fill up. Josh, get back over here when you can!



Sorry mate. I have been reading all the posts, but since I don't have much to say in the way of tube talk right now, I've just sort've sat back and enjoyed the reading. The Martimus Maximumus tone packs I've been running have basically got me right where I've wanted to be tone-wise, so the the likelihood of me rollin' anything new for a while isn't real great. Perhaps if I get a small one or two tube amp like Joe has I may start rolling a bit more, but... Ce la vi...

Also just me and my acoustic right now as my PRS is finally at the doctor getting implants (the Sustaniac Sustainer that I bought forever-and-a-day ago is finally finding it's way into the guitar). I just dropped her off this afternoon...

How's things w/ all you guys here?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sorry mate. I have been reading all the posts, but since I don't have much to say in the way of tube talk right now, I've just sort've sat back and enjoyed the reading. The Martimus Maximumus tone packs I've been running have basically got me right where I've wanted to be tone-wise, so the the likelihood of me rollin' anything new for a while isn't real great. Perhaps if I get a small one or two tube amp like Joe has I may start rolling a bit more, but... Ce la vi...
> 
> Also just me and my acoustic right now as my PRS is finally at the doctor getting implants (the Sustaniac Sustainer that I bought forever-and-a-day ago is finally finding it's way into the guitar). I just dropped her off this afternoon...
> 
> How's things w/ all you guys here?



Marty sent me a couple I've never used and they turned out to be real nice in both amps. A Mini Watt and a German made Lorenz. Both are great V1's. Also finally tried one of his RCA Mullards for ther PI slot that is a very strong but out of balance tube. Again another great tube that adds positives. Feeling the dynamics.

I've pretty much got what I want tube wise though so occasionally I will roll my stock just to see if my ears need something diff or maybe I just do the PI slot. Other than a little mess'n around like this I spend more time play'n them amps. When they are there sound and feel wise I like to put that to good use and play some jams or learn some songs.

Josh I really want a plexi bad but can't afford anytime soon. I was looking at the 12000 series Metro 68's and man was I in heat hahaha! The clips sound so good that I hear and its really something I'm going to try to get eventually. I modded my DSL again with a double barrel shot gun and its never sounded so good. I really miss the Marshall mid tone so a plexi is what I'm shooting for. I ain't F'n around with anything else. In the mean time I play the shiznit out of what I have and I like it. Those 2 low watters are blues rock amps for sure!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... I play the shiznit out of what I have and I like it. Those 2 low watters are blues rock amps for sure!



For rolling, and truly getting a feel for the real characteristics of a tube w/out all sorts of other stuff getting in the way, those small amps really are the way to go. You think that the lunch box (Night Train) is the way to go for this purpose when it comes to balancing tone/quality with the ever-real factor of $$$'s and ¢'s?

I'd like a small Marshall, but so far am majorly underwhelmed by the offerings I've played at the local guitar shops...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow, everyone has good tubes and are happy. No tube rolling unless we get some new blood in here. I think there are several guys that may be up to it. 66 Galaxie bought a four tube deluxe set. I hope he posts his review.

Maybe I'll roll up my sleeping bag and head to the next town.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sorry mate. I have been reading all the posts, but since I don't have much to say in the way of tube talk right now, I've just sort've sat back and enjoyed the reading. The Martimus Maximumus tone packs I've been running have basically got me right where I've wanted to be tone-wise, so the the likelihood of me rollin' anything new for a while isn't real great. Perhaps if I get a small one or two tube amp like Joe has I may start rolling a bit more, but... Ce la vi...
> 
> Also just me and my acoustic right now as my PRS is finally at the doctor getting implants (the Sustaniac Sustainer that I bought forever-and-a-day ago is finally finding it's way into the guitar). I just dropped her off this afternoon...
> 
> How's things w/ all you guys here?



Well we can always talk about other stuff. It's not against Forum policy. I'd love to hear more about the Sustainer.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow, everyone has good tubes and are happy. No tube rolling unless we get some new blood in here... Maybe I'll roll up my sleeping bag and head to the next town.



Say it ain't so Marty. Say it ain't so... (lol)



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well we can always talk about other stuff. It's not against Forum policy. I'd love to hear more about the Sustainer.



Me too! I'm chomping at the bit, but its probably gonna be a couple weeks before I have it back. But when I do...

Oh yeah baby! 

... I guarantee that I'll post a video or 12 on it!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> For rolling, and truly getting a feel for the real characteristics of a tube w/out all sorts of other stuff getting in the way, those small amps really are the way to go. You think that the lunch box (Night Train) is the way to go for this purpose when it comes to balancing tone/quality with the ever-real factor of $$$'s and ¢'s?
> 
> I'd like a small Marshall, but so far am majorly underwhelmed by the offerings I've played at the local guitar shops...



Well first off you know I luv the Marshall voice. Mostly plexi though. So my low watters are apples to oranges comparison wise to what I like out of certain Marshall's. There isn't any hehe. 

The NT is a rock'n amp once you know how to run the thick voicing and having good tubes in it helps especially good power tubes. This thing will sing and it has plenty of gain. 

In thick mode the tone stack is bypassed so the EQ is rendered inoperable but its got a great sound to it. You can always put an EQ pedal before it to further shape it. I just plug and play most of the time. I like its raw tone and it has dynamics. Most of the time I stay on the thick voicing and just work volume of the guitar for cleaner tones. You have to put some volume to the NT to get its goods. You want it to shock you run it through a 412 with all 15 watts burn'n haha! The higher efficiency of the speaker the louder/tighter it gets. I will say the bright channel is bright. I mess with it here and there but I get more of a thrill on the thick side of the amp. Just how I like my woman put together...thick & naughtee

At times its bites the heals of the Monza for some things as far as having a great tone and feel with midgain blues. Thats why I want to get an A/B/Y switcher and run both at the same time. I have the cabs for it. Both them low watters running into the 412 with GB's smoke. Remember though hard rock is as high gain as I get so metal players look else where. That should be a given with these amps though. I'd put the NT up against any of the Marshall low watters for under a grand for anything under modern metal. Once you know how to use it(higher volume)it will deliver. 

Alot of times I question my decision in buying the Monza but thats because I hadn't spent alot of time play'n the NT at volume through a 412. Now I know. Oh hell once I get a plexi it will be nice to have these 2 low watters to mess around with although I will be having sex with the plexi exclusively...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Didn't you want a clone of a Plexi Bass head? You sent me info on it. I do know that it was a bass head. The sound clips on it were very aggressive. Just how I like my Marshall's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Excellent overview of the NT and Monza. No matter how well a small amp is designed, it just doesn't have that sensation of raw power that could erupt at any moment. Some people call it headroom. A 100 watt amp probably isn't going to sound as good as a smaller wattage amp at lower volumes. Even a big amp can sound a little weak. However, put it to stage volume and the 100 watt amp will have more balls than the lower wattage amp could ever have.

They each have their place. Now a small amp driving a 412 cab that is ran through the PA system can sound pretty damn impressive, but I am talking about a 100 watt amp and 412 cab being run straight and a 20 watt amp through a 412 cab being run straight.

I have no doubt that a 15-20 watt amp with the right speakers could handle a moderate size club with ease. (I know what a 40 watt can do.) With the right cab and cranked, a small amp can have a decent bottom end tone. It takes the most power to produce those thick, low tones and some little amps dry up power wise on the low end.

If you get a PLEXI, it will be a completely different ballgame. There will be massive sex dripping from the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yo, you over here yet 66?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Awaiting for 66 to appear. He bought a Martimus Maximus Deluxe Tone Pack.
Tele, Black Plate, Gray Plate and Electrohome PI.

Apparently all systems are a go.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I got my tubes today Marty and I am more than happy. I got the Deluxe tone pack.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great. That's really good news. I'm glad that you like them.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

So much nicer. Real good tone. The harmonics are a lot better.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, I've got the bubble wrap out and I'm packing up tubes. Took me forever. I meant to do this sooner. I'm spending the next weekend in Nashville and I wanted to move a few of these so I'll have some $$$ to spend. GC Nashville has a used 1960A for $300. There's a Lee Jackson Ampeg VL series head for $350. I paid a helluva lot more than that about 15 years ago. I'm not even looking for amps - I intended to come back with a Fender Somekindacaster.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The quality makes for a quieter tube and they do everything better. Articulation, harmonics and "floor noise." It's all better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was talking to my buddy Keith and he told me that Lee Jackson was hired by St. Louis Music to design amps. Apparently he made some smokin' amp for Crate and them made some good one's for Ampeg.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Didn't you want a clone of a Plexi Bass head? You sent me info on it. I do know that it was a bass head. The sound clips on it were very aggressive. Just how I like my Marshall's.



Yeah I luv the Superbass too. Now I'm leaning more on the 68' era Superlead. A guys got to have goals hehe. Gonna be awhile before anything like this can happen but I sure would luv to have a Superlead. Plus I have the right tubes to roll in one.

Here's Lance play'n and talk'n about the Superbass and how standing in front of a 412 will be flapp'n those pant legs(Bellbottoms)hehe.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzmLMu3oDus&feature=player]YouTube - Metropoulos 10,000 Series - '67 100W Superbass replica[/ame]


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Some of those 80's tube Ampeg's are solid amps.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Those Metro's are golden. Nice Joe.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> So much nicer. Real good tone. The harmonics are a lot better.



Ain't that nice...


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Those Metro's are golden. Nice Joe.



Yeah the scream of the notes on that SB gives me chills...Its like they come out of no where and sound so good. The chords are so clear, rich and full. Backing off guitar volume to cleaner mmm mmm good.

Luv this Marshall tone!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry, I was watching the vid and I had it cranked. Well I hope in a year you will have one. It is a pant flapper.

Loved his shirt.

He also turned that amp off a lot quicker then I do.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> So much nicer. Real good tone. The harmonics are a lot better.



So what did you go with, what tube in what slot if you don't mind me ask'n...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

But they never mention the cab and speakers. I'd love to know what it is. I'd shit if it were G12T-75's.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I went with a Tele smooth, Black Plate and high gain Sylvania. The one's that Marty recommends for the PI. I got two sets of these.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Shawn was smart and got two matched sets. He's good for "years."


----------



## MartyStrat54

He may get a few more to roll in V1. Say a Mini Watt and a Mullard.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'd love to get a Mini Watt and Mullard. Marty is going to save me a good one from this batch he is getting in.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> But they never mention the cab and speakers. I'd love to know what it is. I'd shit if it were G12T-75's.



Yeah its too bad he didn't mention that...those amps will kill speaker boxes so you have to have higher wattage ones in it. I still wouldn't want to run one 412 with GB's using a 100 watter course this is assuming you'd play at some volume more often than not. Eminence would have this covered though.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I went with a Tele smooth, Black Plate and high gain Sylvania. The one's that Marty recommends for the PI. I got two sets of these.



Thats right I remember now. Very good choices!


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's nice to have several good tubes to roll in V1. Spare tubes are always a plus as time goes by. Two years from now I may be selling Martimus Maximus CP Tone Packs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lord I hope not.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

That would suck nipples on a boar hog.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I'd love to get a Mini Watt and Mullard. Marty is going to save me a good one from this batch he is getting in.



I'd say they are worth having along with what you just got. I like the Mini Watt alot too. Dynamic. Glad I got these. Now I just needs the Marshall to really enjoy hehe!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Joe what kind of music do you like?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe's an old rock and roller and blues dude.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I like all of the classic rock bands of the mid 70's. Man there were so many of them. Love Bad CO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I guess 66 isn't going to show. Maybe he went to the Power Tube thread by mistake.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty, what did you find out about the Strat today?


----------



## 66 galaxie

Ok, I got my set of 4 NOS preamp tubes from Marty today. They are for my DSL 201.
Got them installed, no problems. Put it back together turned it on and made sure they were all lit up, then let it warm up for a minute and hit the magic switch.
Bottom line, I like these a lot!
Here are some quick thoughts/impressions. None should be taken in a negative way.
First things first. I almost exclusively play on the OD channel. I just use my guitars volume to roll back the gain.
Also, I keep the amp pretty quiet. The volume is on about 1 3/4ths. I also wear earplugs. ( Yeah, I know kind of pussy, my ears are thrashed from years of loud music and working in a loud environment.)

I started on the clean channel, I have never been real impressed with that channel, so I wanted to see if it cleaned up. Very nice! I can actually get a clean tone that I like now.
I should also say I did not touch any knobs on the amp til after I played a while I wanted to see how it sounded straight away.

Now I went to the OD channel. Wow, warm and buttery. It didn't seem like it had quite as much gain, but then maybe it was just a little less edgy?
It seems like it has more sustain. notes really rang out well. I noticed that I had to turn the treble and mids up most of the way to get where I wanted.
The amp just seems really smooth now. I think I'm really going to like these!

I did not wear my earplugs when I first started testing it out. I wanted to hear it without my ears being muffled. Usually when I have my plugs out, I dont like the sound of the amp, it's too trebly and edgy. (Compensating for the plugs.) I liked the sound of it now without having the plugs in.

I did not get a chance to crank it up. I am sure it's just going to kill when I do! I had already practiced my normal 1.5 to 2 hrs earlier, so my hands and ears were tired.
I'm anxious to hit it tomorrow when I'm fresh!

A few more rambling thoughts. Earlier today I was thinking... crap, I wonder if I should get some just regular new tubes and try them before I try the NOS tubes. I guess I can always try it later now that I know how to change tubes.

All righty then, I gotta eat some ice cream and relax.

Thanks again Marty and everybody else for your help. I will update more as I go....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I called and talked to the owner. He got a little stiff after I told him why I was calling. Especially when I said, "Doesn't your tech have his own tools?"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for that report 66. When you can, crank that amp. You'll enjoy it.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Another happy customer. Now about you. What did you work out?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well now I have to take my guitar back tomorrow. 30 miles away. Then it is going to probably sit waiting on the correct tremolo arm.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had to tell the owner I had an email from Fender stating it was a pop in tremolo arm.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well no since in ruining a good trem arm if you don't need to.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not looking forward to having to go down there, but I'll have to keep the stiff upper lip and not let them take advantage of me. I'm right and they're wrong. I'm also upset, because I spent $55 on the guitar set ups and I think all he did was put strings on my guitar. He damn sure didn't check the truss rod.


----------



## 66 galaxie

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks for that report 66. When you can, crank that amp. You'll enjoy it.




Oh yeah! 
I cant wait to hit it tomorrow. It will be cranked up!
I'll report back tomorrow


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well the last thing you want to do is let them fuck you around. You paid for services and a trem arm and the trem arm is wrong and the services weren't performed properly. You have every right to be upset.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree with you. I'm going to get it squared away and it will be on their dime.


----------



## solarburn

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Joe what kind of music do you like?




Like Marty said and really anything tasty, mid gainy to hard rock. From the late 60's to now. I do have my favs of course but I'm running short on time so I won't list them now hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm going to head over to HOT-HOT-HOT. Meet me over there.


----------



## solarburn

66 galaxie said:


> Oh yeah!
> I cant wait to hit it tomorrow. It will be cranked up!
> I'll report back tomorrow



Look forward to hearing more about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, you're back. Hang with us for a while. I was getting ready to go. You still here Shawn?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I was just getting ready to pull out.


----------



## solarburn

I have to get ready for work now. I'll catch up with ya's later. Have a good one guyz!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe like the drop your panties kind of music. So he's not a headbanging scar head.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Didn't know if it was your night off or not. You need to get in on these "conversations."


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay Shawn. Let's go over to H-H-H.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Will do.


----------



## solarburn

yeah I will be joining in as much as I can. Great stuff! See ya tomorrow then...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was talking to my buddy Keith and he told me that Lee Jackson was hired by St. Louis Music to design amps. Apparently he made some smokin' amp for Crate and them made some good one's for Ampeg.



Yeah, the store I worked at was a Crate/Ampeg dealer and we got to go up there in '93 or '94. Lee Jackson was actually there for part of the seminar, which was mostly a commercial for Crate and Ampeg tube amps. I remember seeing him walking through the factory carrying a handful of GE tube boxes.

Those amps were like his Laney AOR/Jackson amp from the '80's, but with a 5-position mid-shift control that was pretty nice and 6550's. I wouldn't mind having one again sometime, but it's not high on my list.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's exactly what Keith described. He also said that the Crate amp had a key and the controls could be "locked" preventing anyone messing with the controls.


----------



## RiverRatt

That was the Ampeg that had the key. I can't remember the model name of the first Crate tube amp, but a good part of the seminar was spent trying to tell dealers how to get a good enough sound out of it to make a sale. We ordered one of the things to demo, and it *never *sold. It was the most harsh sounding amp you've ever heard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another negative comment for Mr. Jackson. I think I have heard more negatives than positives. What did this guy actually do that was good? Keith said he was a pretty arrogant man. What was he arrogant about? His pissy amp designs?


----------



## RiverRatt

Lee was "Hollywood". Had the whole rock star look happening and the attitude to go with it. Obeid Khan designed the Crate amps, Lee only did the Ampeg stuff. The Lee Jackson VL Ampegs were his best work, IMO. Obeid went on to do good things, like the Vintage Club and Blue Voodoo series. Those weren't bad amps for the price. 

I can't remember much about that first Crate tube amp except that it had this black & orange color scheme and was covered in that carpet-looking stuff that looks the same as the stuff they use in boats. You could take your pedals off your pedal board and velcro them straight onto the amp. I can't remember what it used for power tubes. It may have been 6550's. The amp had no balls whatsoever. About the best you could get out of it was turning the treble all the way off and the mids and bass all the way up. It was hideous. If we lost a knob off another Crate amp, we borrowed one off the little tube amp. Nobody wanted the thing. It was still in the store when it went bankrupt a few years ago.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's been a whole lot of worthless amp designs that people got paid good money to come up with. People were trying to make good sounding SS amps in the early 70's and the transistors were crap. I have the 1972 and 74 Randall's and they are okay. Probably one of the better amps for the period, but still the parts were marginal.

I bought a mint Randall RG90A for 72.88. It cost $40 to ship. I put two new Red, White and Blues speakers in it. The speakers are worth more that the amp. I have like $250 in this amp. There is no way in hell I am going to get $300 for it.

Now if it only were a 1974 Marshall tube amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

There's an old Traynor amp in the local mom & pop music store. I can't remember the model # for sure, I think it was a YS-25 or something like that. No evidence of tubes.

They have a little used Mexican strat - oly white with a mint green pickguard, rosewood fingerboard, etc. It plays and sounds good. What I can't understand is that it appears that someone has painted over the back at some time, tried to sandpaper the runs out of the paint, gave up, and just left the sanding marks. Then on the headstock where it says "Original Contour Body" that has been sanded off, too. When I first started looking at this guitar, it was $225 which I thought was at least $50 too much. The next time I went in, someone had tried to write a "3" over the first "2". They gave up and flipped the tag over and wrote $350 on it. I get pissed off every time I go into that store, but I can't stay away for some reason.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey fellas,
Got a quick update. I have a migraine, so I'm just gonna post quick and go lay down.

I got to give the 201 a workout today. Did my usual practicing and loved it. This thing really sounds good. I can tell I'm going to like it more every day.
Anyway I got done and it was time to crank it up and see what was up. My weiner was after about 20seconds!
Cranked it up to 3 and it started to come alive. Nice sustain single note sound great double stops and diads really stand out.
I threw it up to 5 and it was cooking pretty good then. Messed around on the clean channel for a while, inspired me to play through "Beating around the Bush" that was fun. Played some Bad Co riffs, nice...
I went to Od and started to jam some leads. Damn... sounds really kick ass. It just barks, but there is no hiss, it's just nice and quiet. Wow.
Then I just sat and vibratoed a C note on the A string and walked around getting all kinds of different feedback and overtones, like I was flying in a blue dream.
Then I fired up the wah, that is where these tubes really kick my ass. It used to get kind of ratty when I used it. Now it just sounds perfect. Nice and round, and musical.
My Brown faded Explorer is my #1 right now, so I've been using that. I might have to go get one of the PRSs out and try that, and then the custom shop explorer.
This kicks ass. I can see where it would be fun to roll some different tube combos and see what they do.

Thanks for opening my eyes and ears guys


----------



## MM54

In case my tube-buddies haven't noticed my topic yet:
http://www.marshallforum.com/backstage/17633-my-creation-nad.html


----------



## RiverRatt

66 galaxie said:


> Hey fellas,
> Got a quick update. I have a migraine, so I'm just gonna post quick and go lay down.
> 
> I got to give the 201 a workout today. Did my usual practicing and loved it. This thing really sounds good. I can tell I'm going to like it more every day.
> Anyway I got done and it was time to crank it up and see what was up. My weiner was after about 20seconds!
> Cranked it up to 3 and it started to come alive. Nice sustain single note sound great double stops and diads really stand out.
> I threw it up to 5 and it was cooking pretty good then. Messed around on the clean channel for a while, inspired me to play through "Beating around the Bush" that was fun. Played some Bad Co riffs, nice...
> I went to Od and started to jam some leads. Damn... sounds really kick ass. It just barks, but there is no hiss, it's just nice and quiet. Wow.
> Then I just sat and vibratoed a C note on the A string and walked around getting all kinds of different feedback and overtones, like I was flying in a blue dream.
> Then I fired up the wah, that is where these tubes really kick my ass. It used to get kind of ratty when I used it. Now it just sounds perfect. Nice and round, and musical.
> My Brown faded Explorer is my #1 right now, so I've been using that. I might have to go get one of the PRSs out and try that, and then the custom shop explorer.
> This kicks ass. I can see where it would be fun to roll some different tube combos and see what they do.
> 
> Thanks for opening my eyes and ears guys



That's great! Welcome to the world of REAL tubes. I've read so many posts on here about how people can't justify buying old tubes because of the prices, or they don't think that old tubes will sound that much better than new ones, blah, blah, blah. Do you think it was worth it? I mean, these tubes you got will probably last for YEARS, not days, weeks, or months, plus you get KILLER tone. 

The only problem is, old tubes are addictive. You'll start looking for old hi-fi equipment you can rob, buying old amps, prying the backs off radios in antique malls just to see what tubes they have in them (hey, if the manufacturer wasn't considerate enough to put a tube chart on the outside, it ain't my fault!). 

I'd have to say that this hobby has made me money, not cost a fortune like most people think. I just sold a McIntosh receiver and speakers that I found while tube hunting. It didn't have any tubes in it itself, but I sold it for $800 (I paid $20). That would cover my old tube expenses and then some. 

It gets to be as much about the thrill of the hunt as the tubes themselves. If you read back a few pages, I bought a '69 Ampeg GV-22 and a Harmony head and cabinet awhile back for $100. You know what I was most excited about? Finding a ribbed plate Telefunken ECC83 in a ziplock baggie in the Ampeg! Well, I've really been digging the Ampeg, too, but the tubes were definitely the icing on the cake. I netted 3 matched pairs of old 6L6's, the Tele, a 12BZ7, and about 10 old RCA 12AX7A's. I found an old Magnavox console record player for $20 recently as well. It had 3 12AX7's and four 6V6GT's, not to mention the transformers and components. This doesn't happen often (or ever for me usually), but it's what keeps me looking.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there you have it. Tube Foraging 101 by Alan Murray.

I flunked the class. I can't find anything worth talking about. The last positive thing was the box of tubes that the priest gave me. Unfortunately the tubes were all 6SN7's and a few 6L6's. 

I'd like someone to hand me a box of 50 preamp tubes, like 12AX7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, my wife and I go out about every Saturday checking out yard sales, antique malls, junk stores, etc. She's looking for old China patterns and stuff like that, and I'm looking for old electronics.

Like I said before, you have to put yourself in the right setting to find this stuff. For about every 100 near-misses, you'll find one that is magic. I'm still kicking myself for not buying an old console record player for $60 that had a great EF86/6L6 amp in it. It was gone when I went back for it. I bought an old GE record player for $5 bucks just because the tube chart said it had a 12AX7 in it. It was a GE of course, but still - for $5......


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well see that's my problem. I need to find a partner to go to all of these places with me. 

"Marty. There's an old record player under these women's coats."
"Marty. Stop the car. I think I saw an old organ by that blue pickup."
"Marty. There's an ad in the paper. Someones throwing a 1962 console away."

Damn...I gotta get me a partner.


----------



## RiverRatt

Go for it. Sometimes, they're even more fun after you get home, especially if you've had a particularly pleasant day without the kids. 

A little wine, a little herbal therapy......

I'm starting to sound like a fucking hippy. I've even let my hair grow back out for the first time in 15 years. I was still working at that music store when I showed up for work one morning for work with a buzz cut. The floor guy showed up and I was sitting down in the showroom playing some ZZ Top. He took one look at me and froze. I said "I'm really DEA, you're busted." and kept right on playing and smiling. He looked at me for a long minute and said "Don't do that shit." He turned about two shades paler that day, and that's saying something. I later found out that he was actually posing as his brother to avoid meth charges in Texas. I found this out when police cars pulled up one day and blocked all the doors out of the store and escorted him out of the business in handcuffs. 

Really, I'd talk about preamp tubes if I had something to say right now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well then that means it's time for my little speech.

Hello. Are you a lurker that comes to this thread a lot? Or are you a member who stops in wondering about preamp tubes? 

Come on down. Join the forum and be a part of this thread. If you are a member, post your questions. Are latest newcomer's are 66 Galaxie and Thunder N Lightning. Both of them got some NOS tubes for their amps and are very happy with the outcome.

Old tubes kick ass. Please stop in and make my day.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

The guys on this thread are great. I was able to get a tone pack off of Marty and I am more that satisfied. The amp sounds so much better. The high gain in V1 really kicks my 2204 in the ass.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Please stop in and make my day.







_Now I know what you're thinking: "Did he use 6550's or 5881's?"

Well, the question you've gotta ask yourself is, "Do I feel Lucky?"

Well, do ya, Punk?_


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Thrawn. That was hilarious. "Make my day."

I think you just did.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

If two BZ's in V1 and V2 squeal like a tomcat in a blender, what would two 7025's in V1 and V2 do? They are GE NOS and tested 100/100 and 102/101, according to the seller.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 7025's are just low-noise 12AX7's. Wouldn't hurt a thing and some GE tubes sound really good in a Marshall.

Without knowing what amp you're running, I've had the best luck with the BZ7 as the second gain tube.


----------



## solarburn

All my long plate 7025's were microphonic in V1 & V2 on my Marshall and my Monza doesn't like long plate toobs either in V1. My NT seems to tolerate them more without ringing/screaming like a banshee. The Monza is really touchy with microphonic tubes.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Its a DSL100 RiverRatt.


----------



## solarburn

chuckharmonjr said:


> Its a DSL100 RiverRatt.



I wouldn't waste my time on 7025's in V1 or V2 but thats from trying them out in my DSL50 and then being turned on to a Telefunken V1 & a BP V2. Have you ventured there yet Chuck? I highly recommend it as well as other tubes for those slots too. How much does the seller want for those 2?


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Already bought 'em Solar. $27 for the pair NOS. I also bought 2 Tong Sol's as well as a full matched set of SED =c= EL34's. Plus I have a mix of jj's and sovtek's that were in the head when I bought it a coupla saturdays ago. The power tubes I dont trust because of how the dude had it biased (but thats another story, lol) but the pre-amp tubes seem to be fine.


----------



## solarburn

chuckharmonjr said:


> Already bought 'em Solar. $27 for the pair NOS. I also bought 2 Tong Sol's as well as a full matched set of SED =c= EL34's. Plus I have a mix of jj's and sovtek's that were in the head when I bought it a coupla saturdays ago. The power tubes I dont trust because of how the dude had it biased (but thats another story, lol) but the pre-amp tubes seem to be fine.



Well plop them in and see. If you already have them might as well...

Let us know how they do...

I'd keep the JJ's out of V1 for sure and V2 if it was me. V3 and the PI not such a big deal. Put your best tone shapers in V1 and V2. Maybe a 7025 in V1 and then a JJ in V2 but not vice versa.

Sling shot the Sovtecs at whatever moving target there is outside...

I like Tung Sols. They sounded good in mine. Again in V1 or V2 or both spots.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ... Sling shot the Sovtecs at whatever moving target there is outside...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


>



I'm glad somebody appreciates my sense of humor hehe...


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Yeah, I figure the sovteks are only good for troubleshooting purposes if that. Im thinking a 7025 in V1 then try a rotation of the Tong Sol, the other 7025 or one of the JJ's in V2. Pick whichever sounds the best as a combination.


----------



## solarburn

chuckharmonjr said:


> Yeah, I figure the sovteks are only good for troubleshooting purposes if that. Im thinking a 7025 in V1 then try a rotation of the Tong Sol, the other 7025 or one of the JJ's in V2. Pick whichever sounds the best as a combination.



Yeah I'm not gonna snub my nose at any tubes but I will tell you what I like and what I don't and it will be from actually using them in the Marshall or all 3 of my amps. I always try them out for myself to judge whether my ears like them or not. Have fun Chuck!

Just want to let you know I'm not a toob snob. Plus I kid...alot hehe.

I'm curious to find out what you like in the DSL with that bunch...


----------



## chuckharmonjr

I am too, Solar. Last Monday was the first time I got a chance to crank it to 'gig' level, and it sounded damned awful. After checking the bias it was blatantly obvious. One bank was set to 90mA, a little high but not bad, the other bank read 238!!!! From reading the schematic and doing a little calculating, I couldn't see how the hell it coulda been over 150-160. Marty agreed and said the upper limit was actually 145 and I must have a power tube starting to go south. I agree, hence the full re-tube coming up. It sounds 1000 times better even on the existing tubes after getting the bias level at 85, I can't wait to get the new tubes in. I'll let you know how it went.


----------



## solarburn

Holy carp! Thats a runaway if ever I heard of one hehe! Surprised she didn't blow!

The bias is holding then?

It'll be fine after a retube.

Look forward to hearing about it then.


----------



## solarburn

Well guyz I'm going to be away for awhile so I will catch up with ya's later.

Have fun!


----------



## MM54

So I think you've seen my post about my amp build, and I was wondering what you'd suggest for preamp tubes? V1 is gain, V2A is cathode follower (I think) and B drives the FX loop (which I just remembered I need to jumper and see if it helps). V3 is the PI. Overall it sounds VERY similar to a 2555.

So, I'd like two sets of suggestions  Your ideas for them in general (using any tube) and what of my stash (outlined below) you'd put where.
I have an IEC Mullard, two Box Plate GE's, a normal GE, a longplate slant-D RCA, a slant-top RCA, a NOS Tung-sol (I have a CP one too but it doesn't count), and probably something else that I'm forgetting.

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'm glad somebody appreciates my sense of humor hehe...



You have a great sense of humor. Almost as funny as Bobbo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Holy carp! Thats a runaway if ever I heard of one hehe! Surprised she didn't blow!
> 
> The bias is holding then?
> 
> It'll be fine after a retube.
> 
> Look forward to hearing about it then.



Yeah I told him that I think a power tube was starting to short out and it was pulling more current through the tube. The fact that it is holding bias tells me there is nothing wrong with the bias circuit. You would have to put the tubes on a Maxi-Matcher with say 450VDC and put a dummy load on them to see if one would crap out. 

Tubes are put together with such close tolerances that one can see why a short could occur. 

As stated before. If you buy a used amp, always do a retube for peace of mind. Keep the old tubes for spares. If you own a tube amp, you should always have spares around for backup and troubleshooting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chuckharmonjr said:


> If two BZ's in V1 and V2 squeal like a tomcat in a blender, what would two 7025's in V1 and V2 do? They are GE NOS and tested 100/100 and 102/101, according to the seller.



We ran the gauntlet on the BZ7's and the 7025's. They were a fad. They came and went. I don't recommend a BZ7, but if you do run it, put it in V2 as ALAN stated. If you do run a BZ7, let us know what you think and it it lasts. Marshall's tend to eat BZ7's.

I used to love a 7025 in my V1 slot. That is until the guys got me to expand my horizons. Not to say the 7025 is a bad tube. As a matter of fact, in V1 with a good tube in V2, if you run an FX board it sounds damn nice. If you are used to playing with just more of an amp and a guitar sound, then the European tubes are the only way to go.

Those GE's sound stout. You could always use the 7025's in V2. Nothing wrong with that. Also, V3 and V4 are a possibility. Good tubes are good tubes. You never want to throw out a working 12AX7. Even if one of the members suggest you use them for target practice.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

All ordered and on the way,Marty. And thanks for all the help and insight.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I have an IEC Mullard, two Box Plate GE's, a normal GE, a longplate slant-D RCA, a slant-top RCA, a NOS Tung-sol (I have a CP one too but it doesn't count), and probably something else that I'm forgetting.
> 
> Thanks



Well right off the start, using rule 1A, I would say the Mullard in V1. You always want your best tube in V1 and the Mullard is your best tube.

V2 I would go with the Slant-D RCA (if it is high gain or tests higher than the Mullard). If it doesn't, then the other Slant Top RCA. Is this a Japanese tube?

V3-The Tung-Sol NOS. I don't like old Tung-Sol's that much, but they seem to be a good PI tube.

You could keep the Mullard in V1 and the NOS Tung-Sol in V3 and roll the V2 slot with the RCA's and GE's.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well right off the start, using rule 1A, I would say the Mullard in V1. You always want your best tube in V1 and the Mullard is your best tube.
> 
> V2 I would go with the Slant-D RCA (if it is high gain or tests higher than the Mullard). If it doesn't, then the other Slant Top RCA. Is this a Japanese tube?
> 
> V3-The Tung-Sol NOS. I don't like old Tung-Sol's that much, but they seem to be a good PI tube.
> 
> You could keep the Mullard in V1 and the NOS Tung-Sol in V3 and roll the V2 slot with the RCA's and GE's.



Cool, right now I have the Mullard in 1, the Tung Sol in 2 and Slant-top in 3. I'll give your idea a try and see how it goes 

(All the RCA's are White-Label, Made In USA)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Try the RCA's and then the GE's to see what goes on. 

A long time ago, I actually ran a 7025 with three GE short plates in my TSL122. It sounded pretty damn good.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Even if one of the members suggest you use them for target practice.



Good idea. I bought a new .40 today. I'll take some of those big ol' 25 volt TV tubes I've got lying around. I'll bet they would look pretty impressive if I can hit one of them.


----------



## solarburn

Wus up mudder humpers!!!!!?

What sounds good in V1? A Lorenz in the NT and a Mini Watt in the Monza thats what sounds good hehe. Short plates seem to work best in that slot so far. Them damn long plates sound good in V1 until they start ringing and squeel'n. That be'n said even those will work in other slots without audible microphony. So try them in those slots before throw'n them out for target practice hehe.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Well...I have 4 sovtek's and I just bought 2 NOS GE 7025's and a Tong SOl gold pin today. When they get here tuesday Im gonna start the round robin in my DSl and I'll let ya know what happens. With some luck I'll also have some G12M-70's mounted in my cab as well, along with the winged c's I also bought today so there should be some definite insanity going on at my house wednesday night.


----------



## solarburn

chuckharmonjr said:


> Well...I have 4 sovtek's and I just bought 2 NOS GE 7025's and a Tong SOl gold pin today. When they get here tuesday Im gonna start the round robin in my DSl and I'll let ya know what happens. With some luck I'll also have some G12M-70's mounted in my cab as well, along with the winged c's I also bought today so there should be some definite insanity going on at my house wednesday night.



Sounds like you got plans man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Congrats on the purchase of your 40 cal. I have had a 40 since 1999. Mine is a Beretta. It was a Special Forces model. No safety. I have a very nice Para Ordnance 45. It is the smallest, full size 1911 type 45 called the Warthog. I also have a 9mm, 32ACP and Ruger Bull Barrel MKII 22 cal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wus up mudder humpers!!!!!?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Congrats on the purchase of your 40 cal. I have had a 40 since 1999. Mine is a Beretta. It was a Special Forces model. No safety. I have a very nice Para Ordnance 45. It is the smallest, full size 1911 type 45 called the Warthog. I also have a 9mm, 32ACP and Ruger Bull Barrel MKII 22 cal.



I want a 1911 SO bad.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I have a SIG and a Ruger full size 45's. The SIG is the better piece. The Ruger feels bulky, but it stays in the house.


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys I have gas. I believe when I let it go it will be or one those squeaky tight bun ones that doesn't get everyone making faces at you. 

In other words I'm gonna buy some gear here soon but not a whole lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

G*A*S is G*O*O*D.

GAS is what makes you feel good about yourself.

Getting GAS is a good thing. It shows that you aren't stagnating.

Let the GAS be with you.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Congrats on the purchase of your 40 cal. I have had a 40 since 1999. Mine is a Beretta. It was a Special Forces model. No safety. I have a very nice Para Ordnance 45. It is the smallest, full size 1911 type 45 called the Warthog. I also have a 9mm, 32ACP and Ruger Bull Barrel MKII 22 cal.



I want one of these 45's for when I'm mountain biking up in the hills where cougars and bear are. Most of the good places to ride carry that risk unless its a MB park like Whistler that is catered and designed just for that during the summer. Even then you run into bear there but as long as you leave well enough alone they are use to going their own way. Lots of people there and they have become acclimated to human presence.

You can run into the wildlife like that easily up here on the trails here in PAC NW. I need a gun that is small but packs a wallop when it hits. Someth'n I can get to readily cause I can wear it & have it ready to grab. How much are these?


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Guys I have gas. I believe when I let it go it will be or one those squeaky tight bun ones that doesn't get everyone making faces at you.
> 
> In other words I'm gonna buy some gear here soon but not a whole lot.



Anything with new Tolex on it? Luv the smell of freshly glued Tolex mmm...

Keep the farts though...:eek2:


----------



## BluesRocker

No it wont have tolex on it. But the next tolex fart will be in about 6 months. That fart will be like an earthquake. That's why I am letting the little ones come out now, so that I will be prepared when my buttcheeks rattle my bank account empty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went hunting in the high country in AZ. I was walking along a creek with steep cliffs on each side of me. Then I saw it. A cougar. It fled. I then realized that I was not armed for big cats. From that point on, if I was going small game hunting, I packed my 40 cal with high velocity loads and special penetrating hollow points. Of course, my guide gun is a Marlin 45-70. That will stop a bear or a big cat. I usually go with either a 250 or 300 grain bullet. I also have some high dollar Hornady Lever Revolution 45-70 rounds. These turn the Marlin into a magnum. These cartridges will stop most big African game. All from a lever gun.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow. All this late night talk about butt cheeks has got me wondering if I'm at the right place. This isn't Men2Men Hot Talk, is it?


----------



## BluesRocker

it may be marty. Haha

In my 45 1911 I use 280 grain hollow points. I cant remember what I have in the deser eagle 50. They are expensive. Ive only bough one box for it and shot it maybe 20 or 30 times. Its a mule!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh Lord, that's a rifle that thinks it's a pistol. I have fired that 50 S&W auto and that is a brute. Not for a small person. Those 50 cal revolvers are massive. Have you ever seen that pistol that fires 45-70's? Good grief.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You are up late Blues. How you feeling after surgery? Are you back at work yet?


----------



## BluesRocker

I don't think I've seen that one Marty 

Yeah the DE is a brute. And I am a small person. 5'8" 135lbs. That's why I have only shot it as little as I have. I keep it in the night stand for protection from fuckers that think they can rob me. I really cant wait for that day. I may have to add another door and maybe turn 2 rooms into one after that mess.


----------



## BluesRocker

I'm at work now actually. We've been doing 12 hour shifts all week. But I got tomorrow off which is good cause the state fair is having a free concert featuring jackyl and slaughter. Cant wait for that. 

Ive been doing physical therapy and its kicking my ass but it is helping out a lot. If I can only get the swelling down now.


----------



## solarburn

I get swelling every time I visit the Boob thread...


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I'm at work now actually. We've been doing 12 hour shifts all week. But I got tomorrow off which is good cause the state fair is having a free concert featuring jackyl and slaughter. Cant wait for that.
> 
> Ive been doing physical therapy and its kicking my ass but it is helping out a lot. If I can only get the swelling down now.



That should be kewl!


----------



## BluesRocker

I really want to go see black stone cherry next Friday. But I'll be working. That's a free show too. They are from about 20 miles from where I live. Met the lead singer last year. Awesome dude.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Believe it or not, the 45-70 pistol is a reissue of one that was made in like 1895. I'm sure you know a lot of pistol rounds were made into rifle rounds so that the cowboy only had to have one caliber with him. When they made the lever 45-70, they also made a pistol to accommodate it. Wow. That would freak me out seeing someone raise that pistol and seeing a 3-inch cylinder. The originals are worth a lot of money and in the trade magazines, there are several guys who advertise that they buy them.

Glad to hear you are back to work. I was rearended in Phoenix and it partially tore my kneecap. I was in therapy for 8 weeks, three times a week. It will get better. I'm glad you are recovering.

Slaughter and Jackyl. That should be a screaming show. I saw Jackyl right before they had their smash album. Wow. What a show. Let me know if DuPree still takes his chainsaw to the chair and signs it at the end of the show. In Phoenix, after he did that, he threw the chair into the crowd and it turned into firewood. Some dude managed to get the seat with the autograph. (Drunk people with chair legs...oh boy, it could have gotten ugly.)


----------



## BluesRocker

Well its about time to go home. I'll be back in about 40 min if you all will be around. Plus the phone is about to die.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Believe it or not, the 45-70 pistol is a reissue of one that was made in like 1895. I'm sure you know a lot of pistol rounds were made into rifle rounds so that the cowboy only had to have one caliber with him. When they made the lever 45-70, they also made a pistol to accommodate it. Wow. That would freak me out seeing someone raise that pistol and seeing a 3-inch cylinder. The originals are worth a lot of money and in the trade magazines, there are several guys who advertise that they buy them.
> 
> Glad to hear you are back to work. I was rearended in Phoenix and it partially tore my kneecap. I was in therapy for 8 weeks, three times a week. It will get better. I'm glad you are recovering.
> 
> Slaughter and Jackyl. That should be a screaming show. I saw Jackyl right before they had their smash album. Wow. What a show. Let me know if DuPree still takes his chainsaw to the chair and signs it at the end of the show. In Phoenix, after he did that, he threw the chair into the crowd and it turned into firewood. Some dude managed to get the seat with the autograph. (Drunk people with chair legs...oh boy, it could have gotten ugly.)



SWEET! I hope that he does do the chainsaw. I dont see why not though. gonna try and get as close as I can. If I catch pieces of the chair I will prolly be knocked out by some fan. Sumbitches will prolly cold cock me.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

So with my PRS out getting surgery I'm big time jonesing for some good old loud Marshallized rock, and I can't get that at home right now, soo...

Last night I went down to Guitar Center to buy some strings for my acoustic. While I was there I decided to grab a PRS and try out some of the current offerings for amps.

Marshall's Haze series = Pure Crap. I couldn't get a satisfying tone to save my life. I find myself doubtful if even good tubes and speakers could help these things. A person should have to wage mortal combat with an amp to at least get it to sound ok...

Marshall's MA = Ya know, with some good speakers and a nice set of NOS... This could be a pretty darn nice amp. Especially at the pricepoint they are going for... 

Marshall's Class 5 = To me this was the real surprise. While it'll never be a metal amp w/out the aid of a pedal, and it is not, by any means, a bedroom amp, this little guy was a really pleasant surprise. Everything from sweet and soft cleans to AC/DC crunch all working the volume, tone, and pickup knobs right off the guitar. I really was quite impressed. This one, when coupled with some NOS, and with one of Eminance's FDM Redcoat's... This thing could be a real threat.

The Egnater's actually are kinda fun little amps too, but I just always seem to find my way back to the Marshall's...

Anyhoo, I just thought I'd share.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> So with my PRS out getting surgery I'm big time jonesing for some good old loud Marshallized rock, and I can't get that at home right now, soo...
> 
> Last night I went down to Guitar Center to buy some strings for my acoustic. While I was there I decided to grab a PRS and try out some of the current offerings for amps.
> 
> Marshall's Haze series = Pure Crap. I couldn't get a satisfying tone to save my life. I find myself doubtful if even good tubes and speakers could help these things. A person should have to wage mortal combat with an amp to at least get it to sound ok...
> 
> Marshall's MA = Ya know, with some good speakers and a nice set of NOS... This could be a pretty darn nice amp. Especially at the pricepoint they are going for...
> 
> Marshall's Class 5 = To me this was the real surprise. While it'll never be a metal amp w/out the aid of a pedal, and it is not, by any means, a bedroom amp, this little guy was a really pleasant surprise. Everything from sweet and soft cleans to AC/DC crunch all working the volume, tone, and pickup knobs right off the guitar. I really was quite impressed. This one, when coupled with some NOS, and with one of Eminance's FDM Redcoat's... This thing could be a real threat.
> 
> The Egnater's actually are kinda fun little amps too, but I just always seem to find my way back to the Marshall's...
> 
> Anyhoo, I just thought I'd share.



Cool report Josh. Good to know about these amps. I bet that lil' 5 watter is fun to play on.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yeah... I actually had more fun on that Class 5 than any other amp in the store. Best of all, they actually had all these amps in the glass room so I could cranl 'em up, and play around w/out fighting w/ every other amp in the store to hear what the amp sounded like. For once it was actually a pleasant experience at GC. Who'da thunk it? 

Honestly... If I buy another small amp in the future... That Class 5 might just be the one. Who knows. Maybe I should trade in the Bugera? Nah... Not yet. But that Class 5 would probably be a great amp for rolling. 

... Man, when ya've already blown all your $$$ G.A.S. really sucks!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yeah... I actually had more fun on that Class 5 than any other amp in the store. Best of all, they actually had all these amps in the glass room so I could cranl 'em up, and play around w/out fighting w/ every other amp in the store to hear what the amp sounded like. For once it was actually a pleasant experience at GC. Who'da thunk it?
> 
> Honestly... If I buy another small amp in the future... That Class 5 might just be the one. Who knows. Maybe I should trade in the Bugera? Nah... Not yet. But that Class 5 would probably be a great amp for rolling.
> 
> ... Man, when ya've already blown all your $$$ G.A.S. really sucks!



I kinda hope you get it so I can hear it man hehe. I'm sure its a blast. If I didn't already have the NT I'd prolly get one. No I need to save for the Superlead haha! Gonna be awhile...

That's really great that you got to crank them up too. I like stores that have a sound proof room to do that in and aren't crowded when you're there hehe. Got to open them tube amps up and that doesn't happen without a designated area.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I tried for a little while going through various volume levels on the amp, but the most gratifying really was just dialing it up to 10, tweaking the eq and controling everything right off the guitar. Actually very tasty.


----------



## solarburn

Thats the way to do it Josh.

I like amps like that. Dynamic.

Oh and I can picture you play'n ACDC on it...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Indeed. Since getting into Maximus' tone packs my TSL got a lot more dynamic, and after the Wilder Mod... Oh yeah baby! I find that I use the clean channel less and less w/ each passing day.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I do have a week spot for "The Thunder From Down Under"!!!


----------



## solarburn

Exactly. Rolling the volume off on the guitar gets you there now. Very nice and a measurable improvement of the amp. In other words its not just in your head that it sounds better. It actually performs better. I would luv to play your TSL especially after Jon told me it took the revoicing better than mine did. Luckee!(Napoleon Dynamite)

Good times man...


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I do have a week spot for "The Thunder From Down Under"!!!



You and me both!

You see this one yet:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxw8uR-VLmg&feature=search]YouTube - AC/DC Bad Boy Boogie 1978 2/5[/ame]


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'll never understand how Angus can play running, jumping, and rolling around like that! I can barely play standing up!

... And of course no show is complete w/out an Angus Young strip tease!

I pickup up the Bonfire set not that long ago (which is what I was jamming to in my Highway To Hell video)... Totally rocks.

So being an Aussie... What's yer fav, Bon or Brian?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> ... Slaughter and Jackyl. That should be a screaming show. I saw Jackyl right before they had their smash album. Wow. What a show. Let me know if DuPree still takes his chainsaw to the chair and signs it at the end of the show. In Phoenix, after he did that, he threw the chair into the crowd and it turned into firewood. Some dude managed to get the seat with the autograph. (Drunk people with chair legs...oh boy, it could have gotten ugly.)



Not so big on the Slaughter, but I'd love to to see Jackyl. That'd rock!


----------



## thrawn86

BluesRocker said:


> I really want to go see black stone cherry next Friday. But I'll be working. That's a free show too. They are from about 20 miles from where I live. Met the lead singer last year. Awesome dude.



Crap, they'd be cool to see. I really like them. I should see where they're going next.....if I could find a close enough show.......


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'll never understand how Angus can play running, jumping, and rolling around like that! I can barely play standing up!
> 
> ... And of course no show is complete w/out an Angus Young strip tease!
> 
> I pickup up the Bonfire set not that long ago (which is what I was jamming to in my Highway To Hell video)... Totally rocks.
> 
> So being an Aussie... What's yer fav, Bon or Brian?



I know...he is all over the place and moving constantly, intensely. I luv his tasty play'n and how he performs makes it even better.

I'm in Washington in case you meant I was Aussie Josh...I like Aussie women though and if I had one intimately that would make me Aussie for a moment eh?

My fav is Bon but I like Brian too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Ahh... Dirty ol' Joe...

Ya know, I remember you telling me forever ago that you are in Washington, why on earth did I think you were an Aussie? Ahh... I got my wires crossed... Yep. I had been talking to someone else from down under. That's it. Anyhoo.. 

My first exposure was Back In Black. I discovered Bon Scott one day when I was walking home from school and they played Big Balls on the radio. I laughed my butt off and was also surprised when they announced it as AC/DC...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lots of activity over here since I left at 3 something in the morning.

BON SCOTT RULES.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Crap, they'd be cool to see. I really like them. I should see where they're going next.....if I could find a close enough show.......



BluesRocker knows some pretty cool groups. I have 2 of the BSCherry CD's.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty I didnt go.

Thunderstorms are about ready to hit. And it would have been a mess up there. I didnt wanna stand in the rain, and I didnt wanna drive and hour and a half for it to get canceled. My luck it will go just fine without any rain. But if I went it would have been a monsoon.


----------



## BluesRocker

But to make me feel better. Here we go.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A52p9jc-gOo]YouTube - Jackyl - The Lumberjack[/ame]


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Black Oak Arkansas with a chainsaw tuned in concert A......I love it!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Have you ever come across any 12 pin Compactrons? They were made by GE in the early 60's mainly for color TV's. They used a 6T9 that was actually a real simple Compactron. This tube was only a high mu (95) triode and a power (5W) pentode inside one tube. Other versions had four different tubes inside one glass tube.

This came up on the Soldano Hotmod thread. According to Joey, it used a Compactron. Joey said they are rare, but the site I researched said they made thousands of them and they are readily available for hobbyists.

I've seen like six of them, but then I'm not looking for them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-You posted that info on the other thread about the LANEY. I noticed that it says it was made for 110VAC. Have you ever checked the heater voltage at 120+VAC?

The power tranny could be pumping out 35 more volts.

Just a thought.


----------



## solarburn

Alan must be hunting for stuff that has toobs in it at some garage sales...

Haven't heard from him all day.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm here. I've been moving refrigerators today and working on my new amp when I have time. I've got the board soldered and wired. I've got to drill out the chassis and punch the holes for the tube sockets and I'm ready to start the final stages. This is going to be a wild one. It's a Marshall style preamp on a single EL84 SE power section. It has cascaded gain using both sides of the AX7, and gain, TMB and master vol controls. The challenge is that I'm building this in a Fender Frontman 15R cab and chassis that a friend gave me. I'm using a solid-state rectifier. It should be wild if it works.

Marty, I have several 12-pin compactrons, but not that particular one. I have a 6JA5, two 6U10's, a 6JA5, a 23Z9 and a 14BR11 that has lost its vacuum thanks to a large hole in the side. Some are labeled Zenith but they all have GE markings.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm here. I've been moving refrigerators today and working on my new amp when I have time. I've got the board soldered and wired. I've got to drill out the chassis and punch the holes for the tube sockets and I'm ready to start the final stages. This is going to be a wild one. It's a Marshall style preamp on a single EL84 SE power section. It has cascaded gain using both sides of the AX7, and gain, TMB and master vol controls. The challenge is that I'm building this in a Fender Frontman 15R cab and chassis that a friend gave me. I'm using a solid-state rectifier. It should be wild if it works.
> 
> Marty, I have several 12-pin compactrons, but not that particular one. I have a 6JA5, two 6U10's, a 6JA5, a 23Z9 and a 14BR11 that has lost its vacuum thanks to a large hole in the side. Some are labeled Zenith but they all have GE markings.



Ooh that sounds cool. Man I dig that you're getting into making amps and who knows what kind of amp will be created hehe. You can call them "Frankenstein Amps" cause you use whatever's on hand. Have fun..be careful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I thought you had some. I remember a long time ago that we were discussing a special tube with three gain stages, except it was on a converter base that went from 12 pins to 9. Not really keen on the idea. Basically, you had a 100 mu triode and a 200 mu triode in 9 pin mode.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ooh that sounds cool. Man I dig that you're getting into making amps and who knows what kind of amp will be created hehe. You can call them "Frankenstein Amps" cause you use whatever's on hand. Have fun..be careful.



No shit. You're becoming an amp guru. AM Amplifiers. "Wake up, it's time to rock." 

The newest is a SE EL84 amp with a Marshall style preamp. All crammed inside of a lunchbox.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's what I've got so far. The chassis isn't far enough along yet. Check out that cloth-covered wire! Great colors, too. They don't show up that well in the photo, but they look good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did the caps and resistors come from the scrap box? You must have a ton of that stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, all the caps are new. Well, there's one old one - a silver mica 470pf that'll probably outlast me. I think it came out of a television. I had a few electrolytics that might have worked but it's not worth it. Most of it is high-voltage low-capacitance stuff. I think I have one 40uf/400V that I could have used. The resistors should be fine. Most of them are above specs. Somebody might get mad if I posted the schematic for this one, but the layout is mine. I'll post it when/if I get it working right.


----------



## thetragichero

got to la guardia about four hours before our flight
i've been spending time catching up on 12+ pages of preamp tube/boob talk
nothing else to report... hopefully my pickups are waiting for me at home so i can tear apart my strats


----------



## MartyStrat54

You and I are involved in some of the same stuff. I'm putting new pickups in my Strat as well. I'm waiting on the guitar to get back from the music store. The tech needs to fix a boo boo. I'm going with DiMarzio's. The neck is the Virtual Vintage Heavy Blues 2, the middle is Fast Track 1 and I will be experimenting with the bridge. However, I'm thinking an Air Zone. Going for a Gary Moore type of sound.


----------



## thetragichero

both of these are single coils from john benson up in ny. the bridge pickup going into the warmoth (and replacing a fender 62 tex mex reissue) is an overwound to 7.5k alnico 5. the other is a p90 wound to 12k for the middle pickup in the squier. i think i'm gonna sand that neck down while i have the guitar apart, because that thing feels like playing a friggin 2x4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good luck. I knew that the neck on my Fat Strat would be to my liking, because it is the same neck that's on my 89 Plus. These are the necks that start out with a 9.75 radius, but as you move down the neck it becomes a flatter 12-inch radius.

I would hate to try and sand a neck flatter. I'd be afraid of getting into the truss rod.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thetragichero said:


> both of these are single coils from john benson up in ny. the bridge pickup going into the warmoth (and replacing a fender 62 tex mex reissue) is an overwound to 7.5k alnico 5. the other is a p90 wound to 12k for the middle pickup in the squier. i think i'm gonna sand that neck down while i have the guitar apart, because that thing feels like playing a friggin 2x4.



Those Warmoth necks pretty good? I thought about getting one for a tele I've had sitting around for years...


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

you here bro?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy it's slower than hell. Need to juice this place up.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I noticed that. Not a lot going on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you weren't around, it would be really dead.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am here.. Bored as hell also. Anything to talk about?

Anyone need any effects pedals? Im selling off a lot of mine.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

My buddy came by an listened to my amp through the Sheffields. He really liked it.

He's also interested in some of your tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Blues, glad to have you. Why are you selling off your pedals?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm always glad to hear that. Give him my email. If he wants to talk, get his phone number for me.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey Blues Rocker.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Blues, glad to have you. Why are you selling off your pedals?



I am wanting to get the David Gilmour Signiture EMG strat pickguard setup. I am selling 11 pedals for 300 bucks. One pedal in there costs 250 new. I just dont use them any more.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, if your buddy wants some tubes, I'd be glad to talk to him. What amp does he have?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

An 800 like mine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you list them in the classifieds on the forum? Where are you advertising them for sale?

That's a lot of pedals. I almost bought a Gilmour Strat, but I got the Fat Strat instead.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

That's got the EMG's in it, right BR?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn I can't spell.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah they have EMGs in it.

Marty I havent listed them yet. I wanted to wait to list them cause of photo issues right now

Heres the list.
1970's Cry Baby- Thomas Organ
90's Vox Wah- True bypass
Boss GE7
Electro-Harmonix Echo #1
MXR Phase 90
Fab Chrous
Fab OD
Ibanez TL5 Tremolo
80's MXR Distortion +
Digitech Eric Clapton Crossroads
HAO Rumble Mod (these are $243 new)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anybody else want to jump in? Alan is probably working on his new SE amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! There's some good one's there. What's the Crossroads like?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You have a couple of nice MXR pedals.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you had an original Ibanez Tube Screamer, I'd buy it right now. I have a modern version of it with the original chip, but I would like the older model.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You shouldn't have a problem selling those. I mean the Boss Graphic EQ is a standard pedal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, if that's an 80's MXR Distortion pedal, it should be a good one. The Phase 90 is real popular too.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! There's some good one's there. What's the Crossroads like?



It is pretty nice. The acoustic simulator on it is killer. There can be some killer tones to get out of it if ya play with it right. 
I have a TS-9 its like yours cept I had it modified with the original specs of the TS808 and with the JRC4558 chip and a few carbon comp resistors. Got the kit off ebay for about 10 bucks.



TNL- Yeah I have more MXR but they are on my pedalboard. The ones in the board are the MXR CAE boost/line driver, and the MXR CAE Wah (which is f'in sweet)


----------



## thetragichero

joshuaaewallen said:


> Those Warmoth necks pretty good? I thought about getting one for a tele I've had sitting around for years...



the neck i'm gonna try to sand down is the squier
but the other strat is a warmoth 1 piece swamp ash body and one of their necks from the ones they have in stock (SO much cheaper... you choose frets, nut, and neck finish but start from one of their necks.... probably save 200$)
i LOVE it
my only complaint was going with the medium jumbo frets... should've stuck with the vintage fender sized ones


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You still with us BR?


----------



## solarburn

The HAO is a nice pedal. There good clips of it out there.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thunder N Lightning said:


> You still with us BR?



I didnt know I left?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was wondering what the Crossroads was like. Can I ask what you paid for it?

My Ibanez is modded just like yours. I got it for 40 bucks brand new on EBAY. No one bid on it and I thought, "What the hell."


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was wondering what the Crossroads was like. Can I ask what you paid for it?
> 
> My Ibanez is modded just like yours. I got it for 40 bucks brand new on EBAY. No one bid on it and I thought, "What the hell."



I actually traded a Boss Compressor pedal for it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay now we have attracted a crowd. Welcome HERO and JOE.


----------



## BluesRocker

Here ya go. Shitty phone pic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see. Do you remember what they cost? How many presets does it have?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep, that's the same Ibanez pedal. Is the Electro-Harmonix an analog echo?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Sorry BR. Marty's always doing that to me.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I see. Do you remember what they cost? How many presets does it have?



It has 7 models. Sunshine of your love, crossroads, badge, layla, reptile, lay down sally and layla unplugged.

has a 2 control knobs and 1 level. the controls work different depending on the model you are using.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Sorry BR. Marty's always doing that to me.



That's true. I can be hard on him sometimes.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yep, that's the same Ibanez pedal. Is the Electro-Harmonix an analog echo?



Thats not my Tubescreamer. Thats a tremolo. (my TS is the TS9 the green one. not pictured)

The EH is a digital delay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> It has 7 models. Sunshine of your love, crossroads, badge, layla, reptile, lay down sally and layla unplugged.
> 
> has a 2 control knobs and 1 level. the controls work different depending on the model you are using.



Hope you don't mind the questions. With the Crossroads do you set your amp on clean and then the model provides the distortion or the modified clean sound?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hope you don't mind the questions. With the Crossroads do you set your amp on clean and then the model provides the distortion or the modified clean sound?



Thats the best way to do it. Cause with the acoustic setting your amp needs to be clean.
Here ya go.
DigiTech® Eric Clapton Crossroads™


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What do you want for the Boss EQ and the MXR Phase?


----------



## BluesRocker

Thunder N Lightning said:


> What do you want for the Boss EQ and the MXR Phase?



I would rather sell them all together. But, give me a couple of days and if I dont have any bites. Ill send you a PM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That Crossroads is interesting. I just wonder if you could use the presets for other non-Clapton songs?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What are you asking for the whole kit and kaboodle?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> What are you asking for the whole kit and kaboodle?



$300- thats the price of the Gilmour kit


Yeah I would guess you can get more Clapton tones out of it than just 7 songs. I could get a good cocaine tone out of one of them. I think it was the Crossroads setting. Except I adjusted the gain and tone a bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I hope someone snags that from you. I have spent so much money and now I am putting new pickups in my Fat Strat. I also want to change the pickups in my Explorer.


----------



## BluesRocker

Haha. I dont really care if they sell or not really. They are great pedals. That FAB chorus is one killer pedal. I have an 80's Ibanez/Maxon Stereo Chorus and the FAB gives it a fun for its money.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since you guys are talking old effects, I picked this up cheap back in June. It's 1980's classic DOD. I thought I'd flip it easy but it's been two rounds on eBay and no takers. I guess I get to keep it. It's really a pretty decent delay. It's got some very usable effects plus it sounds good through the DSL effects loop.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty, I called my buddy and I'll PM his phone number to you.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Damn Alan. That's an old DOD. What is that? Late 80's?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Your name is Alan, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder if Marty tells me the truth.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Ratt is Alan, Solar is Joe, and Josh is Josh.


----------



## BluesRocker

And I am Cody


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty I wanted you to know that I took your advice and tried that second set. Everything was perfect. I'm still gassing for one of your Mini Watts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry Cody. I wasn't snubbing you. I had told T N L who Joe, Alan and Josh were. But anyhow T N L, Blues Rocker (Cody) is considered a regular over here.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

And I am Shawn.


----------



## BluesRocker

Im just not as regular as everyone else. I stop in a lot to keep you guys in line.


----------



## thrawn86

So what am I? Chipped Beef? Paul cries FOUL.

J/K. Cody, if you can't sell that lot all together, hit me up....I may want an item from you.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well. Shawn wants the EQ and the Phase. I think Marty wants the Crossroads. Which ones do you want.. Maybe I can get all these out. LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Shawn, I'll keep a Mini Watt off to the side for you. I think I have six sold already.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Shawn, I'll keep a Mini Watt off to the side for you. I think I have six sold already.



Dont forget about mine too.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'd appreciate that. 

Hey have you given anymore thought on the Explorer?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cody, you can come over here any time. You are a great guy and I enjoy your company.

Now on the other hand, there's THRAWN. What do you call him?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Dont forget about mine too.



I will keep one of the very best for you CODY. In fact, I will be giving you the option on how strong you want it before I ship it.


----------



## BluesRocker

29-29 will work.

And thank you my good friend.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I am getting ready to spend my money on some new pickups too. I was just curious about the Boss and MXR. Sort of window shopping.


----------



## BluesRocker

No problem. If I know you are interested and want to by them, it wont hurt my feelings to keep them where they are at. But I will see if I get any updates on anyone wanting the whole package first.


----------



## MartyStrat54

29-29 are my favorite numbers. When they get here from LIMA, PERU, I will be testing them ASAP.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am liking that Tele in V1.. I think its a 29-29 also


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe that's right. They are punchy aren't they? Matt is getting one from me.
I think the tri fecta is the Mullard, the Mini Watt and the Telefunken. I have some stout Telefunkens and I am running them in V2. Wow!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I don't know about the others, yet, but I do know that those Telefunkens are the real deal in V1.


----------



## BluesRocker

Wow! I would like to try out one of those high end Mullards. Wonder what a the Ray BP in V1 and V2 would sound like? Anyone done it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cody. Shawn got two sets of tubes off of me for his 2204. He got the Telefunken Smooth Plate, High Gain Raytheon Black Plate and Sylvania "lop-sided" PI tubes.


----------



## MM54

Hey guys, I'm here too


----------



## BluesRocker

Nice! The Sylvania's that he got is that the same style that I got from ya for my PI slot? The grey plate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Wow! I would like to try out one of those high end Mullards. Wonder what a the Ray BP in V1 and V2 would sound like? Anyone done it?



Yeah I did in my TSL. This was like a 25-25 in V1 and a 28-28 in V2. It wasn't bad sounding at all. I also recommend the Black Plate for 900DR amps in V1. Finally, I ran all four slots in the TSL with Black Plates. As I said, it wasn't bad and in fact I believe I commented that it would be a good blues set up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I also have changed my thinking about high gain V1 tubes. I now say go with the hottest V1 that your amp will take. I've thrown caution to the wind and now I run really hot V1 tubes in all of my amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I'd appreciate that.
> 
> Hey have you given anymore thought on the Explorer?



You know, the more I think about it, the more I feel like going with the Air Zone in the bridge and the Air Norton in the neck. These pickups have the technology that prevents string freeze from the magnets allowing more sustain and pick attack. I think it may be the set I'm looking for. In that big hunk of mahogany, I think they will do real good.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I've seen them both, but I'll look them over good later tonight.


----------



## BluesRocker

I think Super D's in that Explorer would be brutal!


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Welcome Matt.


----------



## MM54

Hey Shawn


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I think Super D's in that Explorer would be brutal!



That's the whole thing. I have brutal pickups in it now. I don't want brutal and a Super D is a high output pickup. I want a pickup with more clarity and sustain. The Air Zone is getting up near a high output, but is sold as a moderate output pickup. The Air Norton is a bridge pickup that everyone uses in the neck, because it has such cool harmonics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello Matt. You out prowling around tonight?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Matt. Did you get to fire up your speaker box yet?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's the whole thing. I have brutal pickups in it now. I don't want brutal and a Super D is a high output pickup. I want a pickup with more clarity and sustain. The Air Zone is getting up near a high output, but is sold as a moderate output pickup. The Air Norton is a bridge pickup that everyone uses in the neck, because it has such cool harmonics.



Ohhhhhhhhhh!!!! Ok. Well. Have you tried a Gibson pickup? Such as the 498T? or the 57 Classic+?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'm the one looking at high output pickups for my Les Paul.


----------



## MartyStrat54

CODY-No I haven't tried them. I've been using DiMarzio since 1976, so I guess you could say I'm a loyal customer. (Do I get any free swag for saying that?)

I figure that I can find what I want from DiMarzio. I looked at custom pickups, but the single coils weren't noiseless. I may go with the Air Zone in the bridge of the Fat Strat. If I like it, then I may go with it in the Explorer.


----------



## MM54

Yeah. I'm still up for some reason so I figured that I'd stop here to crash for the night. Seems like a good place for varied discussion!

I haven't used the speaker box yet, no. I got everything set up and ready except for the back panel, which I couldn't cut tonight because 10:00 is a little late to be using the table saw 

I figure the glue can all dry overnight really well, and I'll cut the back and try it out tomorrow


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Choosing pickups is tougher than choosing speakers. Plus you have the wiring that you have to do and the pots may need to be changed. Not fun at all if you are trying a lot of pickups like Marty is going to do with his Strat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Matt I'm excited for you. I hope they sound good. I know it isn't HiFi, but if you get a speaker in the right box, it can really sound good.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What kind of speaker box did you build, Matt?


----------



## MartyStrat54

He had some full range 12-inch speakers and he wanted a speaker system for his shop. He went with what I would call a truck box. A long box with both speakers in it.


----------



## MM54

It's just basically a properly-sized, ported 2x12 with two AlNiCo organ speakers in it that I use in my shop to listen to music. The two speakers used to just be screwed into a board, but I got no low end and sometimes they sounded horrible from the out-of-phase waves bouncing around the room from the back of the speakers.

Hopefully the box will solve my issues  (Hell, if nothing else, the speakers are more protected now and I can get that part of my floor back!)


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty, I was looking at those pickups. That looks like a nice pair for a blues setup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guarantee that it will sound better than what you had.


----------



## BluesRocker

That is awesome Matt!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Marty, I was looking at those pickups. That looks like a nice pair for a blues setup.



Oh you checked them out? Yeah, the Air Zone has 323mV of output. About 50 away from being a high output. If you read about it, you saw that it has great sustain and pick attack.


----------



## BluesRocker

I want to try out the Humbucker From Hell.. It is a SUPER bright pickup used for the neck position. makes the neck sound cleaner and brighter.


----------



## MM54

Speaking of pickups, I guess I might as well peddle here too. Anyone interested in some vintage tone caps? I have a bunch of .22 Sangamos, a TON of most every useful guitar-value GoodAlls, some old Erie ceramic disks, and a few bumblebees that I've not read the code from yet.


----------



## BluesRocker

I use the reissue Bumblebees. I like them in my LP and my V


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I want to try out the Humbucker From Hell.. It is a SUPER bright pickup used for the neck position. makes the neck sound cleaner and brighter.



I like my neck to be warmer than my bridge. Some guys try to get the neck too bright and then there is no variation between the bridge and the neck pickups. 

I'm hoping that the Heavy Blues 2 in my neck on the Strat will be a nice, full body sound. Then I have a Fast Track mini humbucker in the middle position.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Those Bumblebee's are huge.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those Bee's are huge, but they do the job.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, I got a good few of them from an amplifier, I've not had the chance to read the color codes off them yet though to know if they're of a useful capacitance.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt you should have a huge stockpile of parts. Alan ended up building some amps with his spare parts. I got sick of all my junk, so I sold most of it off.


----------



## MM54

I do have a TON of caps and carbon comp resistors, right now though there isn't a lot I can do with them and I'm strapped for cash, so I'd rather sell any that I can as long as I'm not ripping myself off


----------



## BluesRocker

You should build a pedal out of those resistors. Maybe you can develop something new and make a killing off of it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well some people love carbon comp, but I'm not one of them. I had Wilder remove all the carbon comp from the P2P board in the JMP. Carbon comp are noisy in some circuits and they are prone to drifting when they get warm.


----------



## MM54

That'd be awesome BR, but for the most part I don't get how SS pedals work


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> You should build a pedal out of those resistors. Maybe you can develop something new and make a killing off of it.



How about the "AFD" pedal?

:eek2::eek2:


----------



## MM54

Well, it's like 2 in the morning and I think I have to get up tomorrow, so I'm going to go. I'll entertain any questions and suggestions when I get the chance tomorrow 


'Night guys.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

AFD>>>Good one.

You open it up and there is one resistor, one cap, and a chip, but they aren't soldered together and there is no battery. 

That's how Slash got his tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Adios Matt. Have a good one.


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn everyone is leaving us. We must smell bad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm surprised how fast Joe and Thrawn split. Maybe I do smell.


----------



## BluesRocker

LOL. Yeah Alan cut out too.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'm still here. I'm on the DiMarzio site looking at pickups. They have some really hot pickups. One puts out 500mV and it's passive.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have been in and out. (in and out haha) Playing my Madden Franchise. Woo hoo I am 10-0


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thunder N Lightning said:


> I'm still here. I'm on the DiMarzio site looking at pickups. They have some really hot pickups. One puts out 500mV and it's passive.



You must be looking at that massive D Activator-X™. That's not for the weak and mild.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I have been in and out. (in and out haha) Playing my Madden Franchise. Woo hoo I am 10-0



I watched a special show on the NFL channel about the entire history of Madden Football. It was very interesting.

What team do you use? Titans?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Cody, it was great. Let's do it again sometime. I enjoyed it.

I'm going to post a few thing and get off in about 30 minutes.

C Ya LTR Shawn. I'll rap with you some more about your pickup selection.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I watched a special show on the NFL channel about the entire history of Madden Football. It was very interesting.
> 
> What team do you use? Titans?



Nope. Im a Denver fan. woo hoo. Even though we lost to the Lions last night



Cya Marty. Talk to ya later.


----------



## thrawn86

You guys don't smell. I just have a household full of sickies this weekend and have been running errands, along with reorganizing all my gear for an upcoming backpacking trip. Heading out to the NOS earth is a good thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I knew I didn't stink. I showered and used my pit stick, so I had to be good to go.

Have fun Thrawn. Enjoy.


----------



## solarburn

Oh sure guyz...have the fun while I'm at work...

Just got home. Sorry I missed the gathering. I'll catch up to you later I guess. Gonna look around a bit and then go pass out.


----------



## MM54

Hey guys. I was straightening out my room and got distracted by the laptop here, so now I'm sitting with about 5 watts per channel (Really loud, mind you) of Megadeth coming in my right ear 

Anyone still here to chat?


----------



## MM54

Hmm, why does this look like a really good thing:

CORDOVOX AMPLIFIERS

If those are 12AX7's in the last picture, I might explode. Damn, I wish I had money. These things always show up when you don't, ya know?


----------



## MM54

Hmm, got an e-mail back from the guy, he said there's sixty 6x8 tubes in the tone generator, 12au7,12ax7 and pair of 7591s in the amplifier part.

At that, I definitely won't go near $100 for them, but he said they need to move this week, so if there still there in a few days... I may get a good deal. I could probably convert it to a functional guitar amp pretty easily, no?


----------



## RiverRatt

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Damn Alan. That's an old DOD. What is that? Late 80's?



I don't know exactly - sometime in the 80's. I thought it was fried when I first tried to use it until I figured out that the delay is modulated, too. You can use the Speed and Width to produce some bizarre pitch-shifted repeats. The Repeat Hold switch is fun to jam with, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Hmm, got an e-mail back from the guy, he said there's sixty 6x8 tubes in the tone generator, 12au7,12ax7 and pair of 7591s in the amplifier part.



The amplifier part sounds cool, but SIXTY 6X8's? Aren't those the triple triode tubes?

I looked it up - it's like the 7199 I've been looking for. It has both a pentode and a triode. Too bad they weren't 7199's.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The amplifier part sounds cool, but SIXTY 6X8's? Aren't those the triple triode tubes?
> 
> I looked it up - it's like the 7199 I've been looking for. It has both a pentode and a triode. Too bad they weren't 7199's.



That would just be too good to be true, finding 60 of them. Plus he has two pairs, that's 120 tubes! Add it all up I think there are 71 tubes in each, so in total it's 142 tubes. Imagine the cost, even back then, to retube that 

Like I said, in a few days I'll see if he'll part with them on the cheap, I wouldn't mind having something to mess with. My shop's starting to fill up with stuff these days...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt-Any Fender guy would jump on those old Jensen's. You might be able to get over $100 for the pair if they have the right codes on them.

Those 6X8's use a different base than a 12AX7. They have a mu of 40. They are being used as oscillators in the tone generator.


----------



## MM54

Internet says they're Jensen C12R, those the good ones? (I don't know much [yet] about what speakers are a lot better than others, as you can tell )


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Internet says they're Jensen C12R, those the good ones? (I don't know much [yet] about what speakers are a lot better than others, as you can tell )



Yeah those are desirable. I just looked up some info and one guy said he sold a pair for $125.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Since you guys are talking old effects, I picked this up cheap back in June. It's 1980's classic DOD. I thought I'd flip it easy but it's been two rounds on eBay and no takers. I guess I get to keep it. It's really a pretty decent delay. It's got some very usable effects plus it sounds good through the DSL effects loop.



That's actually a pretty sweet box you've got there bro. If I had the $$$ I'd pounce like a horny cougar, but my $$$ is tied up elsewhere at the moment. Still... Enjoy it while you've got it. I would.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's not going anywhere. I have a little core group of effects that I use and I can't see this finding a permanent place, mainly because there's no way in hell it would fit in my pedal board. I'd love to find a pedal that did all this. PM me if you're seriously interested in it. I'm sure we can work something out.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I appreciate it mate, but right now it's not a matter of intrest for me... I've just got too many other things going on to even consider another gear purchase... but this WILL add to my bad case of gas that I'm fighting. Once I get my PRS back from the doc I need to pretend to be an adult for a while. I've gotta be outta here in 6 months, and so far I have absolutely no plan, and no $$$ saved... Not very mature, or smart, but since the wife split I've been rebelling against adulthood, and if I don't give it some attention it's gonna smack me in the face really hard in a few short months.

Know what ah mean Vern?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Alan... That Headhunter's show happen yet? Still not sure I can make it, but it'd be awesome if I could!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> That's actually a pretty sweet box you've got there bro. If I had the $$$ I'd pounce like a horny cougar, but my doe is tied up elsewhere at the moment. Still... Enjoy it while you've got it. I would.



Plus I've got the RP1000...


----------



## RiverRatt

Things aren't ever as bad as they seem, Josh. I've been down a few times. Got down to playing an Ibanez 3-pickup Destroyer and a Roland Cube 30 amp. You've still got some decent gear, and you'll be surprised at how much better things can look in 6 months. Hang in there, man. We've all done some lean times and made it through.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, the Headhunters show isn't until the second weekend in Sept. but I haven't had any luck at all with any media creds. I'll check back in with the guy tomorrow but I think if he was going to do something, he would have by now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hear ya Josh. Things have been really on the lean side for me and yet I was spending a lot of money on the new amps and other gear. I really need to get some stuff sold.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Things aren't ever as bad as they seem, Josh. I've been down a few times. Got down to playing an Ibanez 3-pickup Destroyer and a Roland Cube 30 amp. You've still got some decent gear, and you'll be surprised at how much better things can look in 6 months. Hang in there, man. We've all done some lean times and made it through.



I like those Ibanez Destroyers. Fun guitars. Phil Collen used to play one a lot during the Pyromania years.



MartyStrat54 said:


> I hear ya Josh. Things have been really on the lean side for me and yet I was spending a lot of money on the new amps and other gear. I really need to get some stuff sold.



No worries guys. I ain't complaining or anything, merely explaining why I've gotta act like an adult for a bit instead of blowing every dime I make. 

But like ya said, I've got some pretty sweet gear, so its not too hard to be content too. Regardless of where things wind up, I thoroughly plan to rock on. Who knows, one of these days I may actually get meet you guys face to face and get a chance to jam for a bit. How cool would that be?


----------



## MM54

Hey guys.

Speaking of money, I went through the local mall today to see where was hiring. I picked up three paper applications and was referred to two that are online. Hopefully I'll have a job soon to alleviate some GAS


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Speaking of money, I went through the local mall today to see where was hiring. I picked up three paper applications and was referred to two that are online. Hopefully I'll have a job soon to alleviate some GAS



Rock on mate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well someone better create some jobs soon or there's going to be some trouble.

All that talk from Obama was just talk. Have you seen any advances in "green" power? Obama was talking about all the jobs that were going to be created out of green power. Yeah, right.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Politics:

A word of Greek origin. Poli; meaning 'many'. Tics; (ie. ticks), 'blood sucking creatures'.


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> Politics:
> 
> A word of Greek origin. Poli; meaning 'many'. Tics; (ie. ticks), blood sucking creatures.



I like.

Nobody's got all the answers. Even the best-intentioned human beings can't control what is uncontollable. And if they attempt, it's called Communism or a Dictatorship.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm just saying these "politicians" are paid good money to make good decisions for us. I see them living good while the working man scratches his head in these troubled times.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hello. Hello.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I'm here.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

What's up?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I did a couple of calls today. One at the college and the other was at one of the Baptist churches.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I'm on reduced hours right now. Pulling 32 to 36 hours, but the company is still maintaining the health insurance.


----------



## solarburn

Dudes!

Just wanted to say hey and hallo!

I've had a case of insomnia the last couple days so I think I'm ready now to sleep hehe. Working grave I run into it every now and again with my crazy sleep schedule I keep. Its all over the place. So I will catch up with my mates later. Have fun doodies. I'm gone...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, at least they are trying to keep everyone. A lot of places just slashed jobs and walked away from it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think Joe needs to start drinking.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

You take a look at that Activator X?


----------



## MM54

Hey guys. Two days in a row I'm up late for no reason. When school starts back up Thursday it's going to be a very abrupt change 

(I have like 15 minutes, then I should get to sleep so I don't sleep away all my free time tomorrow )


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a monster. I think it is too much, but I guess there is a need for it. I wonder about string pull and what the tone window is like. In other words, does it have a lot of treble?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I can at least say, "Hello."

How's the job hunting?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yeah that X is a powerful pickup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You look at any of the other one's?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Yeah I was looking at that Super 3 and the Steve Morse model.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think that Super 3 might be a better bet. It is like a slightly hotter Super D with a metal voicing.


----------



## BluesRocker

If I cut myself while playing guitar will that give me the "slash" tone?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I will do some more reading on it. I knew it was a hotter Dist +, but I didn't see that about the voicing.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I think it's the gash tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey ya Cody.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Them strings can break the skin.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

How was your day, Cody?


----------



## BluesRocker

Well shut. I have to get back to work. Be back in a litle while.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

We were talking about pickups for my Les Paul. I play metal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm glad you weren't looking at the X2N.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I saw it, but I thought it was best to stay away. It's only 10mV hotter than the X.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Tone Zone is a sleeper pickup for metal as well.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Wasn't that one of the one's you were wanting to try?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No. I want to use the Air Zone. It's about 50mV down from a Tone Zone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Since we don't have anybody else here, let's go over to HOT-HOT-HOT and continue this.

IF ANYONE HAS ANY TUBE RELATED QUESTIONS, PLEASE POST THEM. IT'S GOTTEN A LITTLE SLOW. 

MARTY


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

will do Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Since things are slow, we are BSing a little more. If you have any tube related questions, please let us know. I would rather be helping you out then BSing.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, here's one of our favorites. Are you watching this one? I can't have it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Matsushita-12AX7-Tube-Foil-Getter-/270624568678?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah so. Problem is, I have passed up many of these auction. Most are three or four tubes in premo condition. One lot of four went for $21.

I mean I can't sell the one's I have. No one is going to give me $20 for one of them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I passed on it at $15. If he took returns, I might go a little higher. I have some family in Carbondale, IL. I guess if it turned out to be a bad tube I could send someone around to pay a visit to the seller.

Marty, are any of yours D-getters? If so, let me know. I could probably take those off your hands (up to a point). Even if they are the 45° getter ones, make me a price on what you have. I like those, too. I thought I had a good stash of tubes until all these amps started piling up. I must have a box somewhere that I put a bunch of tubes in and forgot about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I thought I had a good stash of tubes until all these amps started piling up. I must have a box somewhere that I put a bunch of tubes in and forgot about.



That's the box that the wifey took and has since sold the contents.

It will be Thursday before I know what I have. I'm gone for the afternoon tomorrow. Now that I think about it, I may have sold those in a lot to a guy from Missouri. If so, I still think I have some left. I will have to look.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. Have fun with your afternoon. I think our Nashville weekend got shot straight to hell.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, here's one of our favorites. Are you watching this one? I can't have it.
> 
> Matsushita 12AX7 Tube Foil Getter - eBay (item 270624568678 end time Aug-24-10 23:00:53 PDT)



Nice! I can't get it. Broke. You gonna try to get?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Nice! I can't get it. Broke. You gonna try to get?



No. I'm broke, too. I even broke myself, so I can't play what I've got. I cut my left hand ring finger when a drill bit slipped the other day. It made hamburger out of the first knuckle. I told Marty today that it was finally getting to where I could stand to play again. So tonight I get started playing ball with the Jack Russell Terrier. He fetches it from two rooms away, but he likes to play keep-away when he gets back with it. I made a grab for it and smashed that knuckle against the coffee table. I think I was speaking in tongues for awhile there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah you said, "Gaw Dam that hurt like shit!" In seven different languages.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I stubbed my toe the other night and I think I made it through five languages.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry, I know this is off-topic as hell, but we've been drifting around a lot lately. Anybody know anything about old Pioneer gear? This is from a cell phone picture a guy sent me. I'm just wondering if it has tubes in it.


----------



## MM54

I have a SPEC-4 poweramp, I think the one on the bottom of that picture is from the SPEC series as well, which is all SS.

I'm not sure about the rest, but it looks to be late 70's early 80's like mine, so it's probably all SS. The only one that causes suspicion is that second one down, it looks oddly big for all the more stuff on the front.


----------



## thetragichero

Product Detail: 9 PIN SOCKET ADAPTER
this might help whoever is looking for 7199 tubes (got this from another forum)


----------



## MM54

I'll add on to the previous post by mentioning that I have 11 6GH8's that I'd like to sell off


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> Product Detail: 9 PIN SOCKET ADAPTER
> this might help whoever is looking for 7199 tubes (got this from another forum)



That was me needing the 7199. I've seen those adapters, but I'd rather just wait until I can find the real deal. Thanks for posting the link, though!


----------



## chuckharmonjr

OK. DId the swap around like Marty suggested. Gave me some headroom on the bias pots but not much. But it did give some. Got it back down to 85. I think I will put the GE back in V2 tho, that Tong Sol gold pin is just waaaaay too bright sounding. The 7025 was much warmer, fuller and creamier. I put the Tong Sol in and now all of a sudden I have so much mids (even with the scoop in and presence dialed waaaaay down) you could broadsword cut thru a volkswagen. This aint ice pik high...this is broad axe medieval mids...lol. Any thoughts on this? The tong IS a perfectly matched pair of triodes...so maybe put it in the V3 tone stack or V4 phase inverter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I rarely use matched tubes and I don't use a matched tube in the PI. In fact, I use a whacky tube that is lopsided. You can put all the matched tubes in your amp that you want, but the circuits in the amp aren't matched. As I've told you before, you want your best tubes in V1 and V2. You don't want a harsh tube or a nasty tube in V1.

Also, as I told you, if you can return the power tubes, I would do so and get a different set.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, welcome back! Hope you had a good afternoon.

I found that other Matsushita - it was under some magazines on top of my Marshall. I seriously need to throw some stuff away. Now I've got guitars all over the place. I went from 1 electric to 4 electrics in a really short time. I'm one amp less now. Counting the homemade one, it's now 4 guitars and 4 amps. There's something satisfying about that. I picked up a MIM tele last week, and I ended up today trading for a Parker P-36. It's a sweet player. It has a slightly wider neck than I'm used to, and a flatter radius, but I can get used to this. Wow! This guitar is so resonant it's unreal. it's also got a Fishman piezo system in it - it doesn't sound exactly like an acoustic-electric; it's somewhere between that and a hollow body tele. When you combine the piezo and the pickups, you can get a LOT of different and usable sounds. It's just what I was looking for in a grab-n-go guitar. It's got the sounds and tone, it's light as a feather, and it's not a really expensive guitar so I don't have to watch where the drummer puts his ride cymbals which are big enough to have their own postal code. I've got a couple of battle scars on the headstock on my LP and that's enough. 

Marty, did you see that pile of Pioneer equipment? I bought it with the cash I got for the amp. There's a TX-8500II tuner with a dual-monoblock amp, an aural expander, a SPEC-1 preamp, and a stereo graphic EQ - it's all good silver face stuff, too. I'm hoping this will be close to the McIntosh. The preamp has huge brushed aluminum handles which the hi-fi crowd seems to get hot and bothered over.

Here's what the Parker looks like:


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> Product Detail: 9 PIN SOCKET ADAPTER
> this might help whoever is looking for 7199 tubes (got this from another forum)



Thanks for the interesting info. That's good to know as 7199 tubes are getting scarce.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-That Pioneer system is all SS. That came out in the late 70's. That SPEC-1 preamp is your best piece. Pioneer made a SPEC 2, 3 and 4 power amp to go with it. You didn't say what he was asking, but if cheap enough you could do alright. I have the cassette deck that goes with the SPEC line. They also made a rack mount 7-inch reel-to-reel.

That Parker is really fly man (pun intended). So you traded the MIM Tele for it? Well as long as you are happy. You are acquiring gear pretty darn fast.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Nice guitar Joe.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I got rid of the Fender amp, not guitar. I like the Ampeg so much better. Plus, it was getting crowded in Amp Corner. 

I take it you don't like Parkers? I was never crazy about the headstock and weird cutaways either, but I'm pretty impressed by the results.

I fired up the new 5-watt amp tonight, and I have 2 cooked fuses to show for it. Well, that's what they are there for. I dread taking that thing apart.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thunder N Lightning said:


> Nice guitar Joe.



Thanks, I'm Alan, btw. Joe is the guy from the wet coast who is hard of hearing.

Yeah, I think it's a nice guitar. It's got a good Maple neck, nice fretwork, and a lightweight ash body. So far it feels like a keeper.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey you've been called worse. A little tube talk for ya. I just scored 10, 1959 shiny black plate Sylvania's. They have a D getter. They are in mint condition. I don't think they are Raytheon's. I'm anxious to see how these test and if they sound as good as a Raytheon.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Sorry Alan. I didn't mean to trip like that.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey you've been called worse. A little tube talk for ya. I just scored 10, 1959 shiny black plate Sylvania's. They have a D getter. They are in mint condition. I don't think they are Raytheon's. I'm anxious to see how these test and if they sound as good as a Raytheon.



Marty. These sound like some real gems. 1959 huh? That's some oldies.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Someone asked about this. 6100 current production preamp tubes.

V1-TAD 7025S Hand Select Low Noise for Clean Channel
V2-Tung-Sol (V2A Lead/V2B Crunch)
V3-Mullard RI High Gain (may like it better in V5. Personal taste.) Lead Channel
V4-Tung-Sol-Lead Channel
V5-Mullard RI (Again, try this is V3 or V5) Lead Channel
V6-Mullard RI High Gain-Crunch Channel
V7-EH-Phase Inverter


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey you've been called worse. A little tube talk for ya. I just scored 10, 1959 shiny black plate Sylvania's. They have a D getter. They are in mint condition. I don't think they are Raytheon's. I'm anxious to see how these test and if they sound as good as a Raytheon.



I've got one of those Sylvanias. Mine doesn't sound anything like a Raytheon, but it tested pretty weak.


----------



## MM54

Hmm, I got an oblong box in the mail today! I guess I should put my cab back together (still rewiring for the stereo jack plate) so I can see how this shiny new Telefunken sounds 

Thanks again Marty!


----------



## solarburn

I picked this up while I wait for Alan's to get tested by Marty. I'm demoing it now but haven't had a chance to put some volume to it cause the family's here hehe. Took me awhile to find one. None of the stores that listed them had them in stock. So I had to go Ebay.

NOS NIB Raytheon 5V4G Tube, 

Tested Hickok 530D - min good 1500

Tube = 2150/2150


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh that's purdy. NIB. Way to go Jose.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got one of those Sylvanias. Mine doesn't sound anything like a Raytheon, but it tested pretty weak.



For what I paid for them, they will make interesting Tone Stack or PI tubes.

I may send you one to roll to get your comments.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh that's purdy. NIB. Way to go Jose.



Took me some look'n but I found a good'n for a 5V4G. BP too hehe. Like to keep it in the family even though its not a RAY 12AX7 BP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I said this before. Tube amps were all tube rectified for over 35 years. They made a shit load of rectifying tubes. Pretty easy to find what you want on EBAY or an online store.

Plus they were designed to last a long time. You should get some major service out of that tube.

Hell, it's a Raytheon. It was built like a tank.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, you should be getting my 5V4 in the mail soon. I got my box today. I haven't opened it up to see what failed yet. I may have to put another box together for all the ones I forgot to send. I'm about to go fire the 5-watt homebrew up - wish me luck. So far, all I've managed to accomplish is to build a rather expensive machine to turn fuses into flashbulbs. You get a really nice blue flash, and the fuse comes out looking like something threw up in it. Don't have to check continuity to tell these puppies are dead. I switched output transformers to one that I know works but may not be up to handling 5-watts. I'm hoping it was made over-spec.

I think I found another OT that might be better for a 5-watt, but I can't reference the number anywhere. It's stamped "73C184383-1", then "CAT NO 36" under that, and "EIA 5158207B" under that. I can't find the 515 EIA code on the sites I've looked at.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, you should be getting my 5V4 in the mail soon. I got my box today. I haven't opened it up to see what failed yet. I may have to put another box together for all the ones I forgot to send. I'm about to go fire the 5-watt homebrew up - wish me luck. So far, all I've managed to accomplish is to build a rather expensive machine to turn fuses into flashbulbs. You get a really nice blue flash, and the fuse comes out looking like something threw up in it. Don't have to check continuity to tell these puppies are dead. I switched output transformers to one that I know works but may not be up to handling 5-watts. I'm hoping it was made over-spec.
> 
> I think I found another OT that might be better for a 5-watt, but I can't reference the number anywhere. It's stamped "73C184383-1", then "CAT NO 36" under that, and "EIA 5158207B" under that. I can't find the 515 EIA code on the sites I've looked at.



Good luck on that 5 watter. Hope you get it run'n.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn. Same deal. The mains is switched off, there is nothing live other than the fuse holder, and the instant voltage touches it, the fuse blows. Can a fuse holder be bad? Is something shorted to ground? What?????


----------



## solarburn

I know nussing! Sorry I can't help out...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like you have a toaster on yer hands. Recheck your power supply wiring. Obviously it is a dead short.


----------



## MM54

I'd plug it in through a switched strip, leave the chassis opening-up, and put a piece of lexan (or glass, I say lexan because I have a bunch laying around) over it for protection and look to see if something is arcing when you send power into it. If nothing is live but the power cord, through the fuse, and into the open switch, you have pretty much two possibilities - the switch is bad and is shorting internally from one pole to the other, or the fuse holder is shorting to ground or the other lead.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got the fuse fixed - minor wiring snafu. Now I've got about 120vAC going into the mains switch, and about .5 volts coming out. There's not even enough voltage coming off the return to light the pilot lamp. Radio Shack Shit Switch. Thankfully I have a large bag of odd fuses. I even have a 1 6/10A fuse - you're always needing one of those for something.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

So it was a bad switch?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as Matt said, there wasn't much it could be and now your Chinese Radio Shack switch is the culprit.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty I sent you a PM regarding tubes. Just to nudge your shoulder a little bit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok. Voltages all great - exactly where they should be - but no sound. Except after awhile I heard a bacon frying kinda sound. It wasn't coming from the speaker - it was coming from the OT. It had a nice pile of melted beeswax under it. I think I wired it backwards. I had to make a guess since I didn't think to mark the leads when I pulled it. I would think that the green/black pair would be the secondary and the red/blue would be the primary but it didn't work. Like I said, the voltages up to the OT primary are spot-on. I'm waiting for the filter caps to discharge but I may be through with it for tonight. My kingdom for a SE 5-watt output transformer!! I wish you could still go to Radio Shack and buy real components. All you can find is low voltage/high capacitance stuff. Are there any electronics hobby shops anymore where you can get decent components?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Shoulder is nudged. Reply sent.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Marty let me know what those Syl BP's are like and where you suggest they be used.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I could try one of those Sylvanias, too. I likes old USA glass in my old USA amps, and sometimes in the Marshall.

Marty, did you ever find any Matsushitas?


----------



## thetragichero

i know this isn't the right section, but maybe one of you can help me:
i'm about to pull the trigger and build the 5e3 clone into the chassis of the raven ss amp
my question is whether i could use the power switch that's already there for either the power or standby switch?
is there anything on the actual switch that should give a clue of what the switch will handle before blowing up?


----------



## RiverRatt

You shouldn't have any problems. You can probably buy that same lighted rocker switch at Radio Shack. I've always wanted to use a red switch for mains and a green one for standby. Which Raven are you using as a donor?


----------



## thetragichero

the rg60 i traded some of my unused equipment for along with a squier strat and some other things before i made the move from jersey to florida (at the time i had a bass amp but no guitar amp, and wanted to consolidate some junk)
i'm thinking i blew something in it by cranking it and running a cranked tube preamp into it, because eventually it started to HISS LIKE CRAZY whenever it was on

should i be able to use the light in the rocker switch in place of the pilot light as well?

any additional holes on the front will allow me to have switches for different cap values/more tonal variation

i appreciate all your help/insight!


----------



## MM54

Just tried out that Tele in V1, and, in short, it's staying!

Very smooth, yet full. Took out the harshness that I sometimes got from the IEC Mullard that had been there before


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well look at it this way. You got one that will last for a long time. Hell, in two years it might be a 28-28.

Thanks for letting me know how it turned out.


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> the rg60 i traded some of my unused equipment for along with a squier strat and some other things before i made the move from jersey to florida (at the time i had a bass amp but no guitar amp, and wanted to consolidate some junk)
> i'm thinking i blew something in it by cranking it and running a cranked tube preamp into it, because eventually it started to HISS LIKE CRAZY whenever it was on
> 
> should i be able to use the light in the rocker switch in place of the pilot light as well?
> 
> any additional holes on the front will allow me to have switches for different cap values/more tonal variation
> 
> i appreciate all your help/insight!



Sorry - My video card died and then I had to go to a high school football game. I stopped by the office and grabbed an old Radeon video card and all is well, unless I try to play Crysis or something. 

You won't need the pilot lamp with the lighted rockers, but I'm a traditionalist - I like that big Fender style pilot lamp jewel. I found an amber one for my 5E3x2 build and I have a large supply of NOS Philips bulbs for it (the tone from these is incredible!!! LOL). Fenders use the 6.3v heater taps to power the pilot lamp, so you'll have to re-route the filament windings to just the tubes if you don't want the pilot. I went with two toggle switches and the old school lamp but it's just a matter of preference. 

Here's what I did:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another one to light up.


----------



## guitar76

I know this has been beat to death on this forum but I keep reading all these posts about tubes and I get a headache and get dizzy. I know there is lot of personal taste involved but I need to find a starting point with a set of tubes for my DSL50. My band plays a lot of modern hard rock 1990's and newer so I'm probably after a little more modern sound. I'm planning to get a full set and start with the preamp tubes. I just got this DSL last week and man I was playing an AVT150 before that. The first practice with this amp and the other guitar player was like "Could you guys here my amp" and I barely even had it on 3. Awesome.... Anyhow I think even at live shows I will hardly get the vol past 4 because we play small venues and mic my halfstack (1960A cab) so I would probably want to get break up at a lower volume. With this in mind could some experienced peeps give me some suggestions om preamp tubes/position and power tubes. Thanks for the help. I know this must be repetetive. Marty, do you live in MO?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, did you ever find any Matsushitas?



Oh man, I knew there was something that I forgot to do.

I have to go out of town to pick my Strat up. Hopefully, I'll remember to look.


----------



## MartyStrat54

@ Guitar76-No I don't live in MO, I live in KS. Picking tubes can be a pain and I will say that a good set is what you are after versus a set for a particular music style. A good set of tubes will handle a lot of different styles.

You'll want to start with a good Philips tube in V1. Try an Amperex first, then a Telefunken. Either one of those tubes will work for you. Other possibilities include a Mullard or a Mini Watt.

Then you will want the time proven V2, a Raytheon Black Plate, High Gain.

V3 should be a solid good tube and V4 is open for taste. I prefer a lopsided high gain tube. This helps create an asymmetrical sine wave and it is rich in even order harmonics. This results in singing sustain.


----------



## MM54

Well, today was the first time in ages that I've been able to just sit down with my guitar and the laptop and learn some tunes. I love my tone today, I blame it partially on the particularly nice weather (not super-humid for the first time in weeks), the amp getting broken it (seriously, it sounds better every time I play it), and the nice Telefunken in V1


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah there's is nothing like a fair haired German girl.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I got two of the ladies.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes and they're identical twins (Twin triodes).


----------



## MartyStrat54

What's up T N L?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Oh I got on to see if anything interesting was going on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you are a tech there is always something. For people like us, we have to make our own entertainment.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I got my speakers in and loaded up in my cab. I have one word to describe your pairing. "Awesome." They're not even broke in and they sound so good. Now I'm having second thoughts about changing out the pickups.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Groovy man. Groovy. Another bad ass 412 cab with the Black Powders and Tonespotters.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Man, I can't believe how tight and defined the low end is. Palm mutes are very brutal if you use a hard pick attack. I wasn't expecting this huge of an improvement.

Plenty of top end without getting nasty sounding. Smooth incredible highs. Pinch harmonics are fat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well get those puppies broke in and you'll be even happier.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

I didn't put the ports in like you did, but I did put in some fiberglass fill on the back and one side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those ports were actually aperiodic vents. These are completely different from a port.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Well I guess I knew that. As you said, they are no longer available, so I didn't bother with them.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ohh me.. what a day. Hows everyone doing? Marty Im gonna call you here in a bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm just thrilled that two different sets of ears agree on the same speakers. I knew they would be perfect for high gain metal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Go ahead and call. I can finish this up quickly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

T N L just experienced the Eminence moment and the moment was good.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, just got back from this Saturday's rounds. I picked up a Marshall 1966B cabinet CHEAP and I also picked up a Precision Apparatus 10-54 tube tester. What can you tell me about it? I can't even figure out how to turn it on.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, I just remembered I am going to be in Nashville for a Joe Bonamassa concert on Nov. 26. You should try to go!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds good - where is he playing? I might grab a drummer friend of mine who has been into the same music as me since 3rd grade and try to make the show. Exit-in?


----------



## BluesRocker

Nope its at the Tennessee Performing Arts Center. 

Grace Potter will be at Exit/In on Oct.31. thats a sunday.. thought about going to that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, that tube tester might turn on with the heater switch. What kind of a knob do they have for various heater settings? The furthest CCW would be off and then it may click on with a choice of heater voltage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty, just got back from this Saturday's rounds. I picked up a Marshall 1966B cabinet CHEAP.



Is this a 412 or 212 cab? What speakers are in it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

T N L is now running a 412 with the Black Powders and the Tonespotters. It more than met his expectations.


----------



## guitar76

MartyStrat54 said:


> @ Guitar76-No I don't live in MO, I live in KS. Picking tubes can be a pain and I will say that a good set is what you are after versus a set for a particular music style. A good set of tubes will handle a lot of different styles.
> 
> You'll want to start with a good Philips tube in V1. Try an Amperex first, then a Telefunken. Either one of those tubes will work for you. Other possibilities include a Mullard or a Mini Watt.
> 
> Then you will want the time proven V2, a Raytheon Black Plate, High Gain.
> 
> V3 should be a solid good tube and V4 is open for taste. I prefer a lopsided high gain tube. This helps create an asymmetrical sine wave and it is rich in even order harmonics. This results in singing sustain.



Hey Marty I was asking because I only live about 3 hours from KC. Do you have a good stock of tubes if I can make it up there and have you tube my DSL50?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What exactly are you wanting to do? Are you looking for power tubes and a bias adjustment? Or are you just looking for preamp tubes? You don't have to drive to my house for the preamp tubes, I can mail them.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Looks like you are still over here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got stuck here for a few moments. Had some questions to address.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Shawn, Marty! 

Hows it going. Ill be tagging along in tonights segment of things.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 1966B is a 2x12 with 2 G12T75's. It's a narrow cab and was made in the 1980's to go with one of the solid-state heads. I thought it would be great for smaller heads. I'm planning to build an 18-watt head to go with it and to use it as a smaller and easier to carry cab for the DSL. It's a little narrow for the DSL but all the reviews I've read say that it sounds a lot more like a 4x12 than the 1936. It's supposed to sound "punchy". It has the round single 8 ohm connector on the back like the 1936. 

Here's a shot of the 10-54 (not mine).


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the 1966B (not mine either).


----------



## BluesRocker

Awesome Alan!!!!

I would like to find a decent tube tester, then start buying up bulk tubes just for the hell of it. Seems like a good idea at times.


----------



## RiverRatt

That 1966B must be a rare cabinet. It only comes up twice on here in a search (not counting my post).


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Wow. If yours if half that nice, it looks like a nice tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Awesome Alan!!!!
> 
> I would like to find a decent tube tester, then start buying up bulk tubes just for the hell of it. Seems like a good idea at times.



I'd just like to be able to test my own tubes. This is the first tester I've run across and I got it cheap enough that if I have to send it for repair, I'm still good. It'll test about any tube, even 12-pin compactrons.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thats what I would use it for too. To test my own. Im fine with sending them to Marty. But maybe sometime in the future I can invest in one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are not bad. The main thing is that the roller chart must work and they are a little slow if you had to test four 12AX7's, four 6L6's and four 5U4GB's. 

But for a first tester it's fine. Is it just and emissions tester?


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hey Marty. Is Late Night going to be over at Hot-Hot-Hot?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it is and Cody said he would join us.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those are not bad. The main thing is that the roller chart must work and they are a little slow if you had to test four 12AX7's, four 6L6's and four 5U4GB's.
> 
> But for a first tester it's fine. Is it just and emissions tester?



No, it does just about everything. The 10-54 even had a 12-pin socket built-in. This unit came with 3 supplemental manuals - two updates for the roll chart, and another for "European" models.

The 10-series is also popular today because it will test a very large variety of tubes. Model 10-12 has built-in sockets for antique tubes 4-pin, 5-pin, 6-pin, 7-pin large, and acorn. It also has sockets for octal, loctal, 7-pin miniature, and 9-pin miniature. Socket adapters (models A-15 and G-140) were later available, which adds the ability to test 10-pin miniature, nuvistor (5 & 7 pin), novar, and compactron tubes. Therefore, if you have the socket adapter panel, you can effectively cover the entire range of tubes from antique 4-pin through modern 12-pin compactron.

The tester also has a NOISE JACK for connecting a set of headphones to audibly evaluate “tube noise.”

Size: This is a relatively large tester. It measures 18 x 14 x 7 (inches) and weighs 18-lbs.
paco1015

Precision 10-15, large countertop model

But if you think model 10-12 is large, then you ain’t seen nothing yet. The Precision model 10-15 is a large countertop version of 10-12.

Model 10-15 is operated standing up, and it makes for a quite impressive spectacle. Approx dimensions are 26-inches tall, 18-inches wide, 11-inches deep. The meter is huge, and could easily be read across the room. The meter is 11.5 inches diameter, with 9-inch window of visibility. The photo to your left compares the size of model 10-15 vs model 10-12. Of course, model 10-15 is meant to operated upright, whereas model 10-12 is propped upright only for size comparison.

Model 10-15 also has an incandescent light mounted on the top of the unit, shining downward upon the meter and controls. Electrically, both models are identical, and share the same manual and schematic.

Precision called the testing method “Electronamic”, and they argued that is “more than just Mutual Conductance.” Precision wrote a two-page article explaining the Electronamic test method, which you can download [HERE]. While it would be heresy to argue that Electronamic is “more” than Hickok’s mutual conductance, I would suggest that the test method is extremely reliable. The Electronamic method is similar to the Jackson 648 test method. I find that the tube test results from the Precision 10-series usually track quite close to Hickok test results. The Electronamic test method uses all AC voltages.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those are not bad. The main thing is that the roller chart must work and they are a little slow if you had to test four 12AX7's, four 6L6's and four 5U4GB's.



Where did you happen to come up with those numbers? 

The roll chart works fine.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes it is and Cody said he would join us.



Yup I am here tonight. I can be the guest host or what the hell ever. haha


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm heading over there. C Ya there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like a damn nice tester. I love that noise check feature. Of course, none of the testers could check for microphonics.

How much did you pay for it?


----------



## RiverRatt

It was $125. I think I'm going to have to get it serviced. I can't get it to power up. I'm going to pop it open and have a look around before I give up. AFAIK the only tube in it is a 5Y3 rectifier.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello to all my friends. Sorry for being a long time no show. I will try to show up more often. Things got real heavy for a while. I didn't get married, but I did have a short term relationship that ended on a sour note. Well it's like I say, you have to stay married to the band. No time for personal relationships.

I'll try to spend more time with you guys.

Love ya, LISA


----------



## BluesRocker

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello to all my friends. Sorry for being a long time no show. I will try to show up more often. Things got real heavy for a while. I didn't get married, but I did have a short term relationship that ended on a sour note. Well it's like I say, you have to stay married to the band. No time for personal relationships.
> 
> I'll try to spend more time with you guys.
> 
> Love ya, LISA



Very smart move Lisa. Need to find that person that plays music too. Well, like me.   haha Hope all has been well for ya. Dont be a stranger.


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Hang in there Lisa. You sound like a real smart chick.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tried to make contact with her before she left. Well maybe she will be back soon.


----------



## BluesRocker

Howdy fellas!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tried to make contact with her before she left. Well maybe she will be back soon.




I see our gur's back! I knew she'd miss us hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

She must have flew through here. I didn't get a chance to even say hello.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Howdy fellas!



Hello Mr. B. Rocker.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello Mr. B. Rocker.



Please, please. I am not old enough to get the Mr.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Please, please. I am not old enough to get the Mr.





I remember the first time a kid called me "Mister." That was a long time ago.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I remember the first time a kid called me "Mister." That was a long time ago.



Yeah I get it to. When people call me mister or sir, I say excuse me but that is my father. Call me Cody.


----------



## thrawn86

Nice avatar, Cody!  Where'd you get it?


----------



## BluesRocker

Google. haha


----------



## guitar76

MartyStrat54 said:


> What exactly are you wanting to do? Are you looking for power tubes and a bias adjustment? Or are you just looking for preamp tubes? You don't have to drive to my house for the preamp tubes, I can mail them.



Yeah I guess I'd like to start with the preamps. If you've got that preamp lineup that you mentioned above available and have time, PM me with a price if you would. I'll work on the power section a few weeks down the road. Thanks


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Google. haha



Great Avatar + 1!


----------



## thetragichero

question for the tubeheads: 6N9S is the same as a 6SL7?


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Marty,
have I mentioned lately that I love these NOS tubes?
Dang amp sounds good-ass!


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> question for the tubeheads: 6N9S is the same as a 6SL7?



Close enough.


----------



## RiverRatt

If any of you guys want to do quick checks on tube compatibility, data sheets, etc. go to Duncan's Amp Pages and download TDSL Personal Edition. It is a great tool, it shows substitutes, data sheets, pinouts, for a really large number of tubes. It's quicker than Google.

TDSL PE


----------



## MartyStrat54

66 galaxie said:


> Hey Marty,
> have I mentioned lately that I love these NOS tubes?
> Dang amp sounds good-ass!





Right on speed man.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> If any of you guys want to do quick checks on tube compatibility, data sheets, etc. go to Duncan's Amp Pages and download TDSL Personal Edition. It is a great tool, it shows substitutes, data sheets, pinouts, for a really large number of tubes. It's quicker than Google.
> 
> TDSL PE




Alan. I finally got to run my Monza proper and test that 5V4G out I just got out. You know it just sounds a bit looser basically yet the core tone of course is the same. So I like it but I think I like the GZ34 a bit better. Especially at higher volume. Thats where the 5V4 gets a bit too loose but on the way there it sounds great. I'm glad I have one to mess with. Go ahead and keep yours I won't be needing it and thank you for the offer!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 5V4G is not listed as a sub for a GZ34 or vice versa.

5V4G
RMSin-375-0-375

GZ34
RMSin-550-0-550

The GZ is going to stay fatter much longer that the 5V4G.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> A 5V4G is not listed as a sub for a GZ34 or vice versa.
> 
> 5V4G
> RMSin-375-0-375
> 
> GZ34
> RMSin-550-0-550
> 
> The GZ is going to stay fatter much longer that the 5V4G.



I checked it out first at the Z forum to see if they were interchangeable in the Monza. I got the thumbs up. I always check that shit out just to make sure. Don't want to F' up a 1k+ amp.

You hit it right on the head about it being fatter than the 5V4. In the Monza the GZ34 wins out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm really bummed. Pissed. The lot of 10 Sylvania Black Plates all tested below poor. Most were 9-11, or near that. 

I've already sent the seller an ultimatum. I want to be reimbursed for the shipping as well. I'm not going to get stuck for shipping on tubes that weren't worth a shit.

I'll post an update when I hear back from this guy.


----------



## solarburn

Sux!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry to hear that, Marty. Maybe it'll work out. 

I've pretty much decided the same thing about the 5V4G. The forum I got that info from had several people who said it was a safe substitution for a GZ34/5U4GB and that it would give more sag. They didn't mention the thin tone. I've been using that one that Marty tested in my 5E3 and it doesn't sound as good as the Sylvania 5U4GB I had in.

Joe, that is a different tube you could try and they are dirt cheap. I don't know if it would sound any different, but the 5U4 is a lot bigger tube than the GZ34. I'm going to give the Mullard a try in my amp when I get everything settled down. I'm moving a leftover Mac from work in there and I'm going to see if I can mic a couple of these amps and try recording some stuff.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry to hear that, Marty. Maybe it'll work out.
> 
> I've pretty much decided the same thing about the 5V4G. The forum I got that info from had several people who said it was a safe substitution for a GZ34/5U4GB and that it would give more sag. They didn't mention the thin tone. I've been using that one that Marty tested in my 5E3 and it doesn't sound as good as the Sylvania 5U4GB I had in.
> 
> Joe, that is a different tube you could try and they are dirt cheap. I don't know if it would sound any different, but the 5U4 is a lot bigger tube than the GZ34. I'm going to give the Mullard a try in my amp when I get everything settled down. I'm moving a leftover Mac from work in there and I'm going to see if I can mic a couple of these amps and try recording some stuff.



Tha 5V4G was huge compared to the GZ34 and it barely fit in the amp. It was even harder taking out. It was tall and had a bigger base. I've got the Mullard back in now. The NOS BEL I have is a great GZ34 as well. I'll read up on the 5U4.


----------



## solarburn

Looks like the 5U4 is compatible with the GZ37's. I don't see it as a replacement for a GZ34 yet...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup, my bad. 5AR4 is the equivalent US tube. Brain fart.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's no doubt that the rec tube plays a small role in the overall tone of the amp. Swapping can be dangerous, if you get a low rated output tube in an amp requiring a high output tube, sparks could fly.


----------



## ken361

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I'm really bummed. Pissed. The lot of 10 Sylvania Black Plates all tested below poor. Most were 9-11, or near that.
> 
> I've already sent the seller an ultimatum. I want to be reimbursed for the shipping as well. I'm not going to get stuck for shipping on tubes that weren't worth a shit.
> 
> I'll post an update when I hear back from this guy.



well that sucks man did he have a money back?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> well that sucks man did he have a money back?



Yes, I'm sending it all back. He claims it was never to have been sold, "but one of the guys working for him listed the tubes." Well then that means the guy working for him is intentionally dishonest.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, I'm sending it all back. He claims it was never to have been sold, "but one of the guys working for him listed the tubes." Well then that means the guy working for him is intentionally dishonest.



Or he just hoped the guy who bought them didn't have a tester and had that backup excuse ready just in case


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like the 5U4 is compatible with the GZ37's. I don't see it as a replacement for a GZ34 yet...



Okay, according to my SAM's Tube Substitution Handbook, the 5AR4 is a sub for the GZ34. (This we all know.) The 5U4 lists the 5AR4 as a sub, so therefore a 5U4 could sub for a GZ34. It also show that a 5AR4 is a sub for a GZ37.

In fact the GZ34/5AR4 is a sub for almost any rec tube listed in my handbook.


----------



## MM54

While we're on rectifiers, any uses for a 6Z4/84? I have two


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay, according to my SAM's Tube Substitution Handbook, the 5AR4 is a sub for the GZ34. (This we all know.) The 5U4 lists the 5AR4 as a sub, so therefore a 5U4 could sub for a GZ34. It also show that a 5AR4 is a sub for a GZ37.
> 
> In fact the GZ34/5AR4 is a sub for almost any rec tube listed in my handbook.



Crazy man. I'm just sticking with the 5AR4/GZ34 designation. I got to play it loud today too and the GZ34 easily sounds best. Fatter is the key word here describing the diff.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, I'm sending it all back. He claims it was never to have been sold, "but one of the guys working for him listed the tubes." Well then that means the guy working for him is intentionally dishonest.



I've run across two of those tubes and both of them tested really low, too. He'll probably rub the labeling off and sell them as 12AT7s after you send them back.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Crazy man. I'm just sticking with the 5AR4/GZ34 designation. I got to play it loud today too and the GZ34 easily sounds best. Fatter is the key word here describing the diff.



You gotta go with what sounds good. My amp likes a 5U4GB and the big bottle RCA 5R4's sound good in it, too. I broke the guide off one of them while I was working on the amp. Superglue is wonderful stuff. The strange thing is, my Ampeg has the most sag and old school tube sound of any of my amps, and it uses a solid-state rectifier. I don't know if this is a function of the strange 7199 PI or what, but it sounds good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just found the coolest little Chinese tube preamp kit on eBay. Any tube amp that suggests that you "fondle admiringly" has to be good.

_This pre-amplifier is based on the famous Matisse circuit and made some changes, not only broadens the frequency response and low frequency extension and better, Voice was mellow and exquisite, worth hearing numerous times. the main circuit PCB thickness about 2mm, which is mainly taken into account when plugged the tubes easily damaged. The top of pcb with decoration, shielded, and shock effects, the design is very friendly. Uses 6N3 tubes, high voltage capacitors Panasonic, in particular, custom high-voltage coupling capacitors, 1% metal film resistors, TAIWAN ALPHA dedicated small sealed volume potentiometer, material and reasonable place, is not ambiguous. With a small PCB layout, good appearance and clean design style, fondle admiringly, Tube at the bottom with green decoration LED, night even more splendor. Board have been welded and tested, you can buy to use, highly cost-effective, No need to install cabinets, streaking even more crazy.。。。。do not miss it!!!_

Only $38 (plus $20 shipping) and you can have your own to fondle admiringly. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Buffer-Pre-Amplifier-6N3-Tube-AMP-KIT-Transformer-NEW-/120592157452?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c13da4b0c


----------



## solarburn

:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Or you could buy two and cascade them together.


----------



## RobS

FYI ----Genalex Gold Lion 12ax7

Just been given one of these to try in my 800.

Excellent in V1, warm sounding great mids and nice highs. Next to no noise and lots of gain.
I still think the Phillips miniwatt is a better sounding tube so the config I have for the time being is 
V1 Phillips
V2 Gold Lion
V3 EH

Power JJE34L

And no, I aint sniffing the cork

ROb


----------



## solarburn

RobS said:


> FYI ----Genalex Gold Lion 12ax7
> 
> Just been given one of these to try in my 800.
> 
> Excellent in V1, warm sounding great mids and nice highs. Next to no noise and lots of gain.
> I still think the Phillips miniwatt is a better sounding tube so the config I have for the time being is
> V1 Phillips
> V2 Gold Lion
> V3 EH
> 
> Power JJE34L
> 
> And no, I aint sniffing the cork
> 
> ROb



Thats funny cause I was just looking at the Genalix last night. Sure has a great write up basically saying its the best AX7 out there. Well at least from your report it sounds good. Wonder how it would do in V1 of my Monza...

Right now I have a long plate Mullard RI in V1 to test out longevity. Some of my NOS have been going microphonic in the Monza and I want to see if it was just the particular tube or its going to eat 12AX7's no matter what they are. I don't mind burn'n some CP tubes to find out. So far the Mullard is hang'n in there and it has a decent tone/feel in that spot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From what I read, I need to put the Gold Lion's up ahead of the Tung-Sol's.


----------



## BluesRocker

For a CP tube the Gold lion just seems a bit too expensive for a 12AX7.


----------



## BluesRocker

1600th Post!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Are the Genalex RI's really any better than the Tung-Sol RI? I remember comparing photos of them on the internet and they looked like identical construction.


----------



## thetragichero

saw a mid-70s ampeg b-15 n bass head on craigslist for 100 clams, but i guess the guy sold it before i emailed him :-/


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was cheap enough. To bad you didn't score.


----------



## thetragichero

i'm guessing i would've found a way to shock myself with it anyway if i did...


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> i'm guessing i would've found a way to shock myself with it anyway if i did...



That's the fun of having an amp with a 2-prong plug. You'll learn all kinds of things to stay away from. My mom & dad's house is built on a concrete pad and back when I was 19 or 20 I worked nights and I'd get in about when they left for work, so I could catch a buzz and play for an hour or two to wind down. I was playing an old Sound City Fifty+ half-stack back then, and I had an instrument cable that was probably at least 30' long - long enough to go into the kitchen or walk around the house while I was playing. One time I was barefoot and stepped on a threshold strip that was screwed into the concrete. That's gotta be the worst shock I ever got. One time I reached over to show the bass player how to finger some riff we were working on and learned a good lesson that time, too.

There's an Ampeg Gemini 2x12 combo on the GC used gear search right now for $300. I thought that was a great deal. $100 would have been a killer deal for that amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Can you send me a link for the Gemini?


----------



## ken361

Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7 Gold Pin tube @ $33.00 ea ECC83 - eBay (item 310242872806 end time Sep-18-10 21:24:22 PDT)


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7 Gold Pin tube @ $33.00 ea ECC83 - eBay (item 310242872806 end time Sep-18-10 21:24:22 PDT)



Online stores have them too and it looks like $40 + is the norm at these.


----------



## LuredMaul

Well I just installed a Martimus Maximus Half Stack(PhilipsHigh Gain V1 & Raytheon Black Plate High Gain V2) in my TSL100.

Lemme give you my tube background first; "I'm a tube Newb." I have played for 30yrs on solidstate amps and later single tube multi-effects processors with Stereo Solid State power amps. I have swapped tubes in these processors and can tell a harmonic change for the good when you find the right tube, but never made the jump to full tubes until recently.

I bought a TSL100 w/1960A cab in great condition used right before Christmas and immediately retubed it so *I* would know that the tubes where solid. I went with a full compliment JJ setup from eurotubes and instantly noticed a bland tone. I joined here to see whats what and found this thread reaffirming my initial thoughts "nuetered tone" so I then went with Marty's suggestion on the Re-issue Mullard/Tung-Sol pre's and it added abit of life back to the tone.

Well I just installed Marty's Half Stack as I'm going to call it; in V1/V2 and here is my initial findings.

1. The lows shifted to a midlow (or maybe just a more usable low freq) and is full and Chunky.
2. The treble is rounded off yet the upper mids are more alive
3. The Gain cleaned up slightly yet expanded at the same time
4. Gone are the piercing highs and dull mids.

All of these are great things to my ears and if anyone here hasn't taken Marty's recommendations ....You sir or Ma'am; are a fool.

I also took Marty's suggestion to move the Mullard/Tung-Sol re-issues to V3/V4 in place of the JJ's and while it opened up the tones even more I feel it also brought back a hint of the Harshness that V1/V2 removed, though not nearly as prominent and I feel for METAL this combo would be awesome, it just isn't for me.

So there ya have it......right or wrong that is my first reaction and I will be a forever Martimus customer from this day forward.

Thanks again to ya Marty!


----------



## solarburn

LuredMaul said:


> Well I just installed a Martimus Maximus Half Stack(PhilipsHigh Gain V1 & Raytheon Black Plate High Gain V2) in my TSL100.
> 
> Lemme give you my tube background first; "I'm a tube Newb." I have played for 30yrs on solidstate amps and later single tube multi-effects processors with Stereo Solid State power amps. I have swapped tubes in these processors and can tell a harmonic change for the good when you find the right tube, but never made the jump to full tubes until recently.
> 
> I bought a TSL100 w/1960A cab in great condition used right before Christmas and immediately retubed it so *I* would know that the tubes where solid. I went with a full compliment JJ setup from eurotubes and instantly noticed a bland tone. I joined here to see whats what and found this thread reaffirming my initial thoughts "nuetered tone" so I then went with Marty's suggestion on the Re-issue Mullard/Tung-Sol pre's and it added abit of life back to the tone.
> 
> Well I just installed Marty's Half Stack as I'm going to call it; in V1/V2 and here is my initial findings.
> 
> 1. The lows shifted to a midlow (or maybe just a more usable low freq) and is full and Chunky.
> 2. The treble is rounded off yet the upper mids are more alive
> 3. The Gain cleaned up slightly yet expanded at the same time
> 4. Gone are the piercing highs and dull mids.
> 
> All of these are great things to my ears and if anyone here hasn't taken Marty's recommendations ....You sir or Ma'am; are a fool.
> 
> I also took Marty's suggestion to move the Mullard/Tung-Sol re-issues to V3/V4 in place of the JJ's and while it opened up the tones even more I feel it also brought back a hint of the Harshness that V1/V2 removed, though not nearly as prominent and I feel for METAL this combo would be awesome, it just isn't for me.
> 
> So there ya have it......right or wrong that is my first reaction and I will be a forever Martimus customer from this day forward.
> 
> Thanks again to ya Marty!



Informative and not hype!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-Can you send me a link for the Gemini?



PM sent. I hope you get it - it looks like the same amp as mine. BTW, I didn't fix the problem with mine because the problem is with the wall it's in front of. I discovered this when I put that new Marshall 2x12 cab back there and was playing through it and it did the same exact thing. There's something about 2 12" speakers and that room, I guess. The 4x12 doesn't do it - it's on another wall.

Their amp:





Mine:


----------



## joshuaaewallen

In the tonal spectrum, say between Marshall, Fender, and Vox, where do the Ampeg's fit in. what do they sound like? Any players I might now that use/used them?


----------



## RiverRatt

LuredMaul said:


> I also took Marty's suggestion to move the Mullard/Tung-Sol re-issues to V3/V4 in place of the JJ's and while it opened up the tones even more I feel it also brought back a hint of the Harshness that V1/V2 removed, though not nearly as prominent and I feel for METAL this combo would be awesome, it just isn't for me.



That's great! I know what you mean about the harshness. IMO JJ's are great at making your tone sound harsh and thin and your speakers sound like wet cardboard. Your description of the tone from the MM tubes sounds spot-on, too. Like the rest of us, you hear pretty much the same changes in tone and describe it pretty much as me and Joe back when we were still experimenting. Now, grab you a nice medium to high-gain Sylvania for V3 (this position makes the least difference in tone). I may be crazy (hell, no maybe about it!) but I can hear a noticeable difference in V4 when I'm using a tube that also sounds good in V2. I like a darker tube here, too. Maybe another Ray BP or a Ray JRP BP, RFT, Matsushita, etc. as long as it's a good, strong tube (around 30-30 on Marty's B&K). 

As you have funds, a few more V1 tubes you might want to try are an old Matsushita D foil getter, a Tele smooth plate, an old Ei Yugo tube, RFT, and plenty more that I haven't gotten around to trying yet. To me, the Tele is the most refined sound - no frequencies leap out at you, but I hear overtones with a Tele that I just don't get with another tube. The Matsushitas are great for that old school Marshall crunch. They remind me of a Mullard but a bit more rude.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have always placed them under the fender category. But I may be wrong.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> In the tonal spectrum, say between Marshall, Fender, and Vox, where do the Ampeg's fit in. what do they sound like? Any players I might now that use/used them?



Go and listen to the entire "Exile on Main Street" album then get back to me. No, listen to "Midnight Rambler" on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" too.

If I had to split hairs, I'd say somewhat like an old Marshall 2x12 combo with much earlier breakup (these ain't clean amps, at least not for long) and a little darker. The lows are a little more rounded like a two 6L6 Fender amp, but it has more midrange bark than a Fender.


----------



## RobS

MartyStrat54 said:


> From what I read, I need to put the Gold Lion's up ahead of the Tung-Sol's.



Definitly a better sounding tube from what I have heard so far.
Reliability wise...time will tell.
One TungSol lasted 4 weeks but I guess that can happen with any tube.

Here in Aus they are around $50AUD 

Rob


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the informative review Keith (LuredMaul). Yeah the next thing is to get a good V3 and V4. My latest preachings is that I suggest a lopsided tube in the phase inverter. This helps create asymmetrical sine waves and is rich in even order harmonics. I also like this tube to be high gain.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

far out. I've never actually seen one to play...


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> 10,000th post. Thanks to all of my friends.


.


----------



## solarburn

Yee Hah!!!!!! We get to have another party for the milestone! Nuth'n but good times. Throw em' back gents...

BELCH!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> far out. I've never actually seen one to play...



Me either, until this one fell into my lap. They are really a sleeper amp - I don't see how an amp that the Stones used and endorsed on some of their best material is so undervalued. They are built like tanks.


----------



## 13eastie

I haven't seen much info/advice on sourcing valves in the UK.

I'm about to replace the stock valves in my Class 5 and was thinking of going with these ECC83's and EL84 from Watford Valves. (The full range of available power valves is here).

The Class 5 does not clean up terribly well, but the dynamic response is really nice. I want to be able to get a nice vintage-style crunching overdrive that will clean up to at least Hendrix / Frusciante standards of hygiene, so I'd like my new valves to meet these needs. My goal has always been to have the least complicated setup possible, but I expect I'll continue to put a Crybaby, TS-9 and DS-1 (as well, in all likelihood, as my CE-5, Holy Grail Nano and PS-3) in front of the combo. For the main part I want to get all the control of my sound at the guitar and with minimal use of pedals - in short I want the amp to do (nearly) all the work!

Like every Class 5 owner, I'm also pretty paranoid about "rattles".

I'd be very grateful if somebody knowledgeable could let me know what they think about my choice of valves and supplier.

Cheers!

P.S. Marty - if you can recommend and supply at reasonable cost to the UK then I'd be very happy to take you up on the offer.


----------



## guitar76

*Captain Bob's Electronic Emporium*

Has anybody bought tubes from Captain Bob's Electronic Emporium on E-Bay?


----------



## RiverRatt

13eastie said:


> I'm about to replace the stock valves in my Class 5 and was thinking of going with these ECC83's and EL84 from Watford Valves. (The full range of available power valves is here).
> 
> The Class 5 does not clean up terribly well, but the dynamic response is really nice. I want to be able to get a nice vintage-style crunching overdrive that will clean up to at least Hendrix / Frusciante standards of hygiene, so I'd like my new valves to meet these needs. My goal has always been to have the least complicated setup possible, but I expect I'll continue to put a Crybaby, TS-9 and DS-1 (as well, in all likelihood, as my CE-5, Holy Grail Nano and PS-3) in front of the combo. For the main part I want to get all the control of my sound at the guitar and with minimal use of pedals - in short I want the amp to do (nearly) all the work!



Marty sent me one of these to try in a Blackheart BH5H head and an Epi Valve Jr., both 5W amps. It was the best-sounding valve I've ever used in either amp. It even sounded better than a nice old Amperex EL84 that I bought specifically for those amps. The correct English translation for these is 6P14P, not 6n14n BTW.

Watford Valves :: Product - EL84/EL84M/SOVTEK NOS Original 1970-71

For the preamp, if the Class 5 is anything like my 5 watt amps, the preamp tube didn't make as much of a difference as the power tube. The Tung-Sol RI sounded really nice in either one. Good choice there.

Don't buy into all the Cryo shit and gold pins. It's just marketing hype.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Me either, until this one fell into my lap. They are really a sleeper amp - I don't see how an amp that the Stones used and endorsed on some of their best material is so undervalued. They are built like tanks.



ThereAre a couple shops around here who seem to carry a lot of interesting old stuff, I may have to scout through them and see if they have any I can check out. In the meantime, I may have to enjoy more quality time with my ice cold buddy who's keeping me company right now at the local Mexican place right now as we speak...


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah, the classic "Muy Grande". 'Scuse me, I have to go pour up another mug!


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Marty, I shot ya a PM looking for some Class 5 options too.

We have been talking a bit about it in our little topic. I can see it now, first the tubes and then the mods.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

And a little further down the line...






But even with a full stomach...

I have GAS. I NEVER should have went to GC. All I keep thinkin' about this week is how much I enjoyed that Class 5. That was such A fun amp to play. It just had AC/DC written all over it...

Maybe should I should order another beer...?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Too late... The bugger's are closing!


----------



## RiverRatt

Closing at 10? My refrigerator is open all nite. What kind of ale were you sampling?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That was Dos Equis... Its not bad for Mexican beer.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well I just got home, and fortunately it's not closed, as is also well stocked with beer!


----------



## RiverRatt

I like Negra Modelo if they have it. Dos Equis amber isn't bad at all either. Give me a plate of chili rellenos with a side of jalapenos and some Negra Modelo and I'm set.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Me either, until this one fell into my lap. They are really a sleeper amp - I don't see how an amp that the Stones used and endorsed on some of their best material is so undervalued. They are built like tanks.





RiverRatt said:


> I like Negra Modelo if they have it. Dos Equis amber isn't bad at all either. Give me a plate of chili rellenos with a side of jalapenos and some Negra Modelo and I'm set.



I think you and I could get along just fine mate.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, next time you're down this way, let me know. If I'm not dead-broke, I could probably drag the wife up to Nashville for a weekend.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Give me a plate of chili rellenos with a side of jalapenos and some Negra Modelo and I'm set.



I just made homemade chicken tacos tonight. With the large taco shells. I'm blown. Beverage was a large bottle of Doppel Bock.


----------



## Dead Jackson

Ok, tubaholics dudes, here's the staight dope: As I have posted on other posts, I am in a Ramones cover band, we have 3 Marshalls. I am the resident tech, but not the guitar player. I'm the drummer. Nonetheless, I have to make it sound good. I have been reading your posts and taking notes. My desired result is to re-create the Ramones guitar sound authentically. They used the 1959s until they were stolen, and then replaced them with what was new at the time, JCM 800 2203s. They used them stock, no mods, and turned the pre up to 7 or 8, and the master, up all the way. The 1959s up all the way, (no pre amp volume.) We have 2 of those 2203s, both re-issues, and one '81 2204 50 watt. Not sure what shipped in them originally, however, what came in the 50 watt when I bought it used was hungarian 12AX7s. That's all they say. I have recently seen them on ebay, NOS for 100 bucks apiece!!! I am assuming that these were the original pre amp tubes. The outputs were GE 6550s. The combination is a brutally loud and fat and GREAT sounding amp on 11 sound.

Currently I am working on one of the 100 watt re-issues. Waiting for caps. Then I will have to replace the tubes most likely. I am going to go with the GE 6550s for the outputs since they are still available. Here is the tubaholic question of the day and don't answer from speculation, answer only if you know... What tubes did Marshall JCMs ship with in 1981? Failing that, What will be a close second? I get the part about having a matched tube for V3 for the PI, but do I go with something with high output to drive the outputs hard? Would that compromise the overall sound? Am I over thinking this altogether???

Tubaholics unite! Give me your input. 'Scuse the pun.


----------



## RiverRatt

If they were from Hungary, they were Tungsrams. Good tubes! Did they have a little metal tag on the getter post with a number embossed on it?


----------



## Dead Jackson

Not sure. I'll have a look when I get to the shop tomorrow. Would I be smart to put one of each of these in V1 on all three amps? Make them all sound close? then put similar tubes in teh other positions? Like maybe NOS GE (ballanced) for V3? something else for V2? or should I just put out the dough and get more of these for all the other sockets...


----------



## MartyStrat54

In 81 the OE tubes could still have been Mullards. There was a period where Marshall had to dig for tubes. I personally have never seen Tungsrams in a Marshall. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen, but I think realistically someone replace the OE tubes with the Tungsrams.

Also, use care removing and installing the tubes. The Tungsrams are notorious for having a thin glass base.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You need to test those tubes. They have been used in three different positions and will wear differently. 

Also, you don't need a perfectly balanced PI tube. If you read these pages you will see that we all use lopsided high gain tubes for the PI.

To make a JMP or JCM come alive, you need a solid high gain tube in V1. I like a Telefunken or a Mini Watt. A good Mullard works well for Ramones. It has a little more grit to it. Then you need a high gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2 and a lopsided, high gain tube in V3.


----------



## Dead Jackson

Ahhhh.... Muchas gracias. Mas cervesas para todos los tubaholicos barachos!!!

On the stock thing: I believe that this amp was purchased by some metal kid when it was new, (or his parents more likely,) based upon how it came to me. It was in immaculate condition, like it hardly ever left the house. The band owed money for tickets they didn't sell, the club ended up with the head. Classic rich kid move. Mommie and Daddy bought him a new one... I got it for what was owed on it a month later. I really suspect this kid wouldn't have known doo-doo about tubes. Just my hypothesis.

Next thing is, how the hell do I test them? I never kept track of which socket they came out of, and they have been out everytime I move the head, and back into whatever socket. (Ok, I'm learning the hard way. My drum sticks don't care what hand I play them with, so....???)


----------



## Dead Jackson

RiverRatt said:


> If they were from Hungary, they were Tungsrams. Good tubes! Did they have a little metal tag on the getter post with a number embossed on it?



Yep, they sure do, and there is yellow lettering on them that barely says tungsram. Yippie! (I guess...)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Well, next time you're down this way, let me know. If I'm not dead-broke, I could probably drag the wife up to Nashville for a weekend.





MartyStrat54 said:


> I just made homemade chicken tacos tonight. With the large taco shells. I'm blown. Beverage was a large bottle of Doppel Bock.



... Ok... Morning time here, and now you guys are making me hungry!


----------



## thetragichero

those tacos sound better than my bowl of cereal...


----------



## RiverRatt

Dead Jackson said:


> Yep, they sure do, and there is yellow lettering on them that barely says tungsram. Yippie! (I guess...)



I had four of those that came with a Laney head I bought several years ago. I sold them on eBay because I thought they sounded like crap. Turns out it was the Laney - the tubes were fine. I tried them in my DSL after I listed them and they sounded really nice. As far as testing, there are certain members here who will do testing for you, or you can just try each one in V1 and see if they sound good. If you hear any strange noises or notice a significant drop in gain they are probably spent.


----------



## macaroni

Hi.
Invest in some mullard .
High gain very musical nice compression the best tube imo. Go for blackburn factory and the short plates ( I61) types.
Anywhere near 30.00 $ Usd a piece for a good tested mullard from a good seller is a deal. 
They worth it.
Get yourself a copy of the 12ax7 shootout in the vintage guitar magazine of jully.
Top 3 : mullard, amperex bugle boy, sylvania yellow label.
Have fun ...


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I may have to get some preamps from you soon. I am picking up a Soldano Hot Rod+ tomorrow. I will need a Ray BP and a Strong PI tube. Maybe a Tele for V1, but I may wait until you get the Mini-Watts in to try that in V1.


----------



## Dead Jackson

Hi all, been a couple of days. Yesterday got consumed by, going and buying a relatively new SVT cab for 600 bucks!!! YYYYEEEAAAHHHHH!!!! Me and the bassie drove 3 hours to go check it out. Had the head too for a grand but we couldn't afford that, besides, I just got a 70s hand wired PtP unit from a friend for 400 bucks, which is how we got here in the first place, so now, our bassie can keep up with the 3 Marshalls... (Lovin it.... I'm surrounded by awesome sound for the first time in my life.)

Anyway, back to reality, thanks for the recommendations. I see a Bugle boy for sale at a premium price, I guess I"ll knuckle down and get it. Also, Mullards. Are these NOS or are they still being made by somebody, and then for the V3, I'm finding some GE black plates, but nobody advertises having unbalanced tubes, the selling point for audio philes, (a different version of us,) is that they are ballanced, so how the hell do you go about finding an unbalanced 12AX7 that is high output, low noise, sonically musical, I mean we are some picky SOBs, here. Further, once I find the winning combination, I'm gonna want to repeat it times three....

Hopefully my caps came in yesterday. Gotta git my ass to the shop! Work to do! I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## thetragichero

new sensor bought the naming rights to mullard, sovtek, and svetlana in the us
i remember that somebody was using the old mullard blackburn plant for tubes awhile back but i guess that fizzled out?
i would keep an eye out for those matsushitas.... they were made in japan on mullard's equipment and they work pretty damn dandy


----------



## MM54

I'm officially stumped - for quite a while my Zenith radio has been acting up and getting horrible reception, and a while ago I couldn't tune it in to any station. I checked all the tubes, and they're all good (Not all of them are 100%, but they're no lower than they were before, weakest is a 6BJ6 at 85%), and the antenna is still up the same as before. 

I just spent 30 minutes trying to pick up any stations, and after a LONG time, I finally picked one up - and I can't figure it out. The little tuning dial was at about 103.5, but it was picking up 97.7. I think it may be time to just rebuild the whole dumb thing with new caps, etc and get a whole lot of tubes testing over 100%


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well generally, the tuning circuit is pretty much rock solid on those old analog radios. It uses a multi blade air capacitor and then inductors for the tuning circuit. Both of these components rarely have any trouble. I would suspect that the tuning dial string has slipped. Verify that the tuner (multi blade air capacitor) is moving from one extreme to the other.

I'm assuming all of the tubes are good as stated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey ALAN-Have you tested any tubes on your tester and extrapolated my numbers to your numbers? What is minimum good on your tester for a 12AX7? 65?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey ALAN-Have you tested any tubes on your tester and extrapolated my numbers to your numbers? What is minimum good on your tester for a 12AX7? 65?



I've got some work to do on the tester. The calibration pot had a big ferrite shield around it which has mostly crumbled. I need to replace that and there are a couple of caps that are badly oxidized and look like they might have leaked. I'm trying to find someone who does repairs and calibrations on it. I can't even get the heater on the 5Y3 to light up as it sits.


----------



## MM54

After much work, I have found (without paying [doesn't mean it was a free copy]) a copy of the service manual for a Zenith C725C, so I should be able to probe about and replace the 60 year old electrolytics, etc .

I also did some research, and am going to check that the tuning blades aren't knocked out of alignment. It's possible that when I pulled the 12AT7 to test (it's in a HORRIBLE spot) I bumped the blades, knocking them way off from the tuning scale on the front. From what I read, it also has a selenium rectifier, which I guess is bad. Once I get the tuning fixed (and possibly a couple tubes replaced, I need to check my bank balance -.-) I'll probably go inside and fix it up to awesome shape.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now that is old. In the process of developing the transistor they derived a selenium rectifier. This was used in a lot of the military gear I worked on. If you short one out, it smells like rotten eggs. I think the modern replacements are diodes.

Those old radios were pretty simple. There shouldn't be a lot of troubleshooting involved.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, I did some research on the selenium rectifier. Basically they needed more than a tube rectifier could do, but that's the best they came up with. If they blow, they release extremely toxic (and smelly) chemicals, mainly selenium oxide.

I've looked over the schematic for the radio and it's pretty simple, shouldn't have much trouble getting everything worked out


----------



## thetragichero

so do others hold thetubestore.com with the same regard as eurotubes?
check out this article full of snake oil-in-paper (the only time i'd ever put something that big inside my guitar is if i was trying to stash, uh.... party favours) :Guitar Tone Capacitor Reviews
150$ patch cables?!


----------



## MartyStrat54

My tech told me that there is very little difference between an Orange Drop and a PIO or PIW. I mean to try and fit that on a pot is ridiculous. My tech would laugh at that. 

I generally ignore all the other shit that the Tube Store or Tube Depot sells besides tubes. I've read some of their wild sales articles aimed at selling hot snake oil.

Thank goodness I don't have to buy much from them anymore.

I bought two quads of EH6CA7's from the Tube Depot in June. That was the first time I had bought from them in a year or so.


----------



## solarburn

Hey BR got himself a Soldano half stack. Its in the other amp section. Already re-tubed it hehe.


----------



## BluesRocker

I had to take some tubes out of the VM.


----------



## solarburn

There it is...


----------



## BluesRocker

Telefunken in V1
Ray BP in V2 
Tung-Sol RI in V3 and 4
Sylviana Grey Plate high gain in the PI
JJ 6L6's in the power.


----------



## JCM1959RR

I put (4) Amperex 12AX7 preamp tubes in my DSL50 - The tone & gain is much better than most of the new production tubes I was using - with the Amperex highs are smoother - bass is warmer & gain is more dynamic - I aslo have a bunch of RCA - GE & Mullard 12AX7s I will be trying next -


----------



## BluesRocker

JCM1959RR said:


> I put (4) Amperex 12AX7 preamp tubes in my DSL50 - The tone & gain is much better than most of the new production tubes I was using - with the Amperex highs are smoother - bass is warmer & gain is more dynamic - I aslo have a bunch of RCA - GE & Mullard 12AX7s I will be trying next -



Welcome to the world of rolling tubes. It is a fun hobby.

Dont forget to try them in ALL positions. Thats what the fun part is.


----------



## MM54

Hey guys. In case you haven't looked, I've made a topic in the Backstage about my work on my radio, have a look ?

(It does involve tubes, so it is relevant to post here )


----------



## thetragichero

i've been bidding on tubes again, fellas...
trying to round out my collection with telefunken/rft/etc


----------



## thetragichero

also, how do i check if a tube is microphonic... and will the tube dampers i've ordered make a microphonic (SQUEEEEAAAALLLLSSSSS) tube usable?


----------



## RiverRatt

If it's that bad, probably not. It might help some, but IMO a microphonic tube has no place in a guitar amp. They always have a harsh ringing quality to them in my amp. Tap on them lightly while the amp is on with a pencil or a chopstick or similar - if you hear the tapping through the speaker, it's microphonic.


----------



## thetragichero

only squeals once in awhile
like in the middle of a song
and sometimes it cuts out


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think the dampers allow good tubes to sound better in combo amps. If you have a squealer, it isn't going to help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

First statement addressing the following. In the following four weeks or so, this thread may hit 100,000 viewers. Please keep a watch and be prepared to party. Alan will provide the spiked punch and Mexican beer. I will brings my famous smoked ribs and Joe will bring his favorite, baked bean done B-B-Q style. Also corn and salad will be served. Josh will bring a special desert. This will be the first thread to hit 100,000 views. More reminders to follow as I want all you regulars to be there.


----------



## thetragichero

i'll bring some killer smoked salmon (on the bbq, not lox) if you let me in the party


----------



## BDowell

BluesRocker said:


> Telefunken in V1
> Ray BP in V2
> Tung-Sol RI in V3 and 4
> Sylviana Grey Plate high gain in the PI
> JJ 6L6's in the power.



I notice you have a Telefunken in V1. I have a TSL and I recently put in a pair of NOS tubes, a Mullard 4024 in V1 and a JAN GE 5571 in V2 to cut down on some of the high gain buzz I was getting through my lead channel. It really sounds great in the clean and crunch channels, but now the lead is kind of dead. Just not getting the pop and sustain as before. I play rock and a lot of blues. Would the the Telefunken or RFT tubes be the answer? I was told that V1 and V2 are the gain sockets, so I hope that part is right. I use winged Cs in the power secton. thx


----------



## TwinACStacks

Hey Marty, I wanted to see what all the fuss was, so I ordered one of those new Gold Lion 12AX7's from The Tube Store. I don't trust FleaBay, not even for new production. Expensive little bastards though. I could almost get into NOS for that.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well let us know how they sound. Your opinion definitely counts. 

And yes they are pricey little bastards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> i'll bring some killer smoked salmon (on the bbq, not lox) if you let me in the party



You're in. I consider you to be a regular here and on my other threads.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BDowell said:


> I notice you have a Telefunken in V1. I have a TSL and I recently put in a pair of NOS tubes, a Mullard 4024 in V1 and a JAN GE 5571 in V2 to cut down on some of the high gain buzz I was getting through my lead channel. It really sounds great in the clean and crunch channels, but now the lead is kind of dead. Just not getting the pop and sustain as before. I play rock and a lot of blues. Would the the Telefunken or RFT tubes be the answer? I was told that V1 and V2 are the gain sockets, so I hope that part is right. I use winged Cs in the power secton. thx



Your best bet is to replace the 5751 with a Raytheon Black Plate (high gain) in V2. This tube will smooth out the edginess and still allow the gain for the lead channel.

So run the Mullard in front of a Black Plate. If you can't find one, I sell them.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> First statement addressing the following. In the following four weeks or so, this thread may hit 100,000 viewers. Please keep a watch and be prepared to party. Alan will provide the spiked punch and Mexican beer. I will brings my famous smoked ribs and Joe will bring his favorite, baked bean done B-B-Q style. Also corn and salad will be served. Josh will bring a special desert. This will be the first thread to hit 100,000 views. More reminders to follow as I want all you regulars to be there.



I'll bring along some of my special herbs for those ribs. It makes the beer go down smoother, soothes the soul, and makes a JJ ECC803 sound like a NOS smooth plate Telefunken. :cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

You don't know how bad that makes my mouth water. I would love to take a step on the wild side.


----------



## solarburn

Dang you guys are making me hungry...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> If it's that bad, probably not. It might help some, but IMO a microphonic tube has no place in a guitar amp. They always have a harsh ringing quality to them in my amp. Tap on them lightly while the amp is on with a pencil or a chopstick or similar - if you hear the tapping through the speaker, it's microphonic.



I agree Alan. I've found though at times when I get some noise(ring'g,hum'n)from a 12AX7 in my Monza, I try it in my NT and find the microphony is no longer audible. Weird eh...? Also I'll try that ring'n tube in the PI and check it there to see if it is audible in that slot too. Now a screamer/squealer is a whole other level of microphony and they just get tossed out. Those are just too far gone MF wise. Tap'n on them is a good way to check. I've tapped the chassis around them and have them make noise too. You know when you have one.


----------



## MM54

I'll bring a cake to the party if you want


----------



## thetragichero

've got a valvo and an rft on their way from portugal
kinda hopin it's the matsushita that';s microphonic and not the ray black plate.... from what ya'll have said, that rft in v1 and ray black plate in v2 might be up my alley


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't ever remember anyone having a microphonic Black Plate. Maybe I'm wrong.

The trick is having a "high gain" Black Plate in V2. If you just stick any BP in there, you don't know what you have.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You don't know how bad that makes my mouth water. I would love to take a step on the wild side.



I never grew up. I'm an 18-year-old stoner trapped in a 45-year-old body. I don't think the cops around here really give a shit if you're not stupid.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I agree Alan. I've found though at times when I get some noise(ring'g,hum'n)from a 12AX7 in my Monza, I try it in my NT and find the microphony is no longer audible. Weird eh...? Also I'll try that ring'n tube in the PI and check it there to see if it is audible in that slot too. Now a screamer/squealer is a whole other level of microphony and they just get tossed out. Those are just too far gone MF wise. Tap'n on them is a good way to check. I've tapped the chassis around them and have them make noise too. You know when you have one.



Here's a weird one for you. I had a microphonic tube in my Laney once. I got suspicious when I was taking a picture of the back of the amp for a forum with the amp on and all the tubes glowing and when the flash went off the tube would pop loudly. Here's the picture even. V2 was the culprit.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a weird one for you. I had a microphonic tube in my Laney once. I got suspicious when I was taking a picture of the back of the amp for a forum with the amp on and all the tubes glowing and when the flash went off the tube would pop loudly. Here's the picture even. V2 was the culprit.




Haha that's a trip.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Space particle acceleration? Light speed collisions of an electron stream? Using a camera as a sophisticated testing instrument.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Digital Cameras aren't compatible with Analog Tubes.....

 TWIN


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> First statement addressing the following. In the following four weeks or so, this thread may hit 100,000 viewers. Please keep a watch and be prepared to party. Alan will provide the spiked punch and Mexican beer. I will brings my famous smoked ribs and Joe will bring his favorite, baked bean done B-B-Q style. Also corn and salad will be served. Josh will bring a special desert. This will be the first thread to hit 100,000 views. More reminders to follow as I want all you regulars to be there.



Did someone say food?


----------



## RiverRatt

I finally gave my Sonotone 12AX7 a go in the Marshall. That has to be the best-sounding USA tube ever made. Marty tested this one at 29-21 on the B&K, but it sounds damned good in V1 on the DSL. This is only the 4th one of these I've ever run across, and every one was found in an old hi-fi stereo amp. They are extremely rare and incredibly smooth. Nice, round lows, crunchy mids and a warm high end. If you run across one of these, give it a try. Note the Sonotone 787 EIA code on the tube. I thought these were RCA clear tops, same as the infamous 12AU7A's, but they are a different animal entirely. If you find one, look for the smoky glass on the top. All the Sonotones have this, but the glass on the RCA side-getters is always crystal-clear. With the side-getter, they may not always be the best choice for a combo amp, but in a Marshall head they are a magic V1 tube. Here's a shot of this one - it came from the Magnavox stereo that I recently scavenged.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would say that Sonotone's manufacturing approach was very European. At the peak of their business they were making tubes at several worldwide locations.


----------



## BDowell

MartyStrat54 said:


> Your best bet is to replace the 5751 with a Raytheon Black Plate (high gain) in V2. This tube will smooth out the edginess and still allow the gain for the lead channel.
> 
> So run the Mullard in front of a Black Plate. If you can't find one, I sell them.



Thanks for the reply. Which Raytheon Black plate should I look for? or which one do you sell? I see a "ANOS Raytheon 12AX7 Blackplate" for $42 at KCA Tubes, but they are out of stock. Tube depot has them for $199! Hope that's not the one!


----------



## thetragichero

not sure how you could know if it's high gain, but here's from a quick search of ebay:

Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 ECC83 Black Plate Stereo Tube - eBay (item 180548246956 end time Sep-15-10 17:04:02 PDT)
Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 ECC83 Black Plate Stereo Tube - eBay (item 400144757293 end time Sep-15-10 16:48:24 PDT)
(first two are a seller i have used in the past and been more than satisfied with)

2 EXCELLENT RAYTHEON BLACK PLATE 12AX7A 12AX7 TUBES - eBay (item 220662207607 end time Sep-29-10 08:11:46 PDT)
(i would see if the seller would give you the test results.... no test results generally isn't a good sign)


----------



## RiverRatt

BDowell said:


> Thanks for the reply. Which Raytheon Black plate should I look for? or which one do you sell? I see a "ANOS Raytheon 12AX7 Blackplate" for $42 at KCA Tubes, but they are out of stock. Tube depot has them for $199! Hope that's not the one!



That $199 tube is a JAN JRP tube (I don't know what the JRP stands for). Not the same. I like 'em, but they are usually REALLY high gain tubes. They aren't worth $200 though. I think I got mine for under $30 for the two.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Hi all, 
Marty, refering to the pm i sent you, here are a few pics of the Holland made, Canadian Electrohome 12ax7 (x2) that i got the other week. Apparently same as Philips/Bugle Boy/Amperex.?
Soundwise, it has nice clarity but with less gain than JJ, TAD and Tungsol to my ears. Definately has a 1965 sound, very wooden. Perfect for early rock, but not much gain for acdc (which is what we mainly cover) as well as some sabbath, led zep etc... Definately Not the valve for Slash tone Freaks.  Cant seem to wail or growl as much as the TAD or TS, but i still like them. Noticable change in sound. Cleaner. 
Admittedly, i havent had the chance to crank it right up and fiddle around for a true comparison(work commitments) so i could be wrong. The volume doesnt go past 1 at home unfortunately... Rehersals are a different story though!!! 
Also, they are 45yo. What does a typical valve sound like due to age?
Maybe i should get them tested just to ease my mind.
Anyone else here have any of these?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's cool. Just another tale demystified. I thought the Electrohome was all Canadian made. The code on the tube states it was made in Herleen, Holland. The Delta "6" should mean 1966 tube run.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought the I65 was the type code. I6 is the type, and 5 is the revision. The Delta is the Heerlen factory code. I'm assuming the 6 is 1966? An I65 seems early for a 1966 tube. Mullard was on their I63 tube then.

It's definitely an Amperex. Good tube! Yes, they are cleaner and more refined than most Philips tubes. I prefer the Mullard/Matsushita for guitar, but I like a little more grit - it's a fine tube. The Hi-Fi crowd loves the Amperex. You should get a decent price for that thing if you decide to sell it. The condition is collector-grade.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I erred on that. I meant to say that it was a "tube type" made in Herleen.

Now as far as the date, it shows on the Philips page as delta 2xx would be a 1962 tube and a delta 6xx would be a 1966 tube. His tube was a 6. Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## MM54

How's it going tubeheads? The only new tubes I've gotten recently are a couple for my radio restoration, I still need to order the new caps for it. Maybe I'll do that now.

On another note, I started working on a new project today; it's an exciting yet inexpensive one that I'm pretty sure nobody on this forum has done (thus it obviously has nothing to do with guitars/amps/tubes/women). No idea when I'll be done, but it hopefully won't be too long.


----------



## BluesRocker

What happens when you put a Raytheon BP 30-33 in V1 and a Sylv. GP 33-33 in V2?

Gettin ready to find out..

I am thinking SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAALLLLL!!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I erred on that. I meant to say that it was a "tube type" made in Herleen.
> 
> Now as far as the date, it shows on the Philips page as delta 2xx would be a 1962 tube and a delta 6xx would be a 1966 tube. His tube was a 6. Maybe I'm wrong.



No, that sounds right. I guess Amperex and Mullard didn't parallel each other with revision numbers. I'm reasonably sure it's not a 1976, so it has to be a 1966.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, what would you want to test a bunch of 12AX7's and a few AU/AT's, write the results on the box, and send them back? I have a bunch of tubes (as you know) but can only measure emissions, which isn't a great way to get a definite gain factor.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> What happens when you put a Raytheon BP 30-33 in V1 and a Sylv. GP 33-33 in V2?
> 
> Gettin ready to find out..
> 
> I am thinking SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAALLLLL!!



Nope. I've been running tubes hotter than that in V1 and V2. Basically, you just end up with more gain on-tap. You can turn your guitar volume down a notch or two and have more gain when you need it.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. I've been running tubes hotter than that in V1 and V2. Basically, you just end up with more gain on-tap. You can turn your guitar volume down a notch or two and have more gain when you need it.



I figured that much. LOL just making a joke earlier.

The gain was there thats for sure. But once the gain was all the way it was hardly usable. Fuzzyish. I went ahead and put the Tele back in V1 and the Ray BP in V2, and the SLY in the PI. Much better.


----------



## thetragichero

MM54 said:


> Hey Marty, what would you want to test a bunch of 12AX7's and a few AU/AT's, write the results on the box, and send them back? I have a bunch of tubes (as you know) but can only measure emissions, which isn't a great way to get a definite gain factor.



i'd like to know the answer to this as well


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> I figured that much. LOL just making a joke earlier.
> 
> The gain was there thats for sure. But once the gain was all the way it was hardly usable. Fuzzyish. I went ahead and put the Tele back in V1 and the Ray BP in V2, and the SLY in the PI. Much better.



I like the high-gainers. I don't really get any fuzziness, just more crunch. I usually shoot for a tone a little more distorted than early AC/DC stuff and roll the volume back until it cleans up a little. I want Malcolm sounding cleans for rhythm and Angus bite on leads. Of course, a Gibson with good PAF clones helps a lot!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Hey Marty, what would you want to test a bunch of 12AX7's and a few AU/AT's, write the results on the box, and send them back? I have a bunch of tubes (as you know) but can only measure emissions, which isn't a great way to get a definite gain factor.



PM sent.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I like the high-gainers. I don't really get any fuzziness, just more crunch. I usually shoot for a tone a little more distorted than early AC/DC stuff and roll the volume back until it cleans up a little. I want Malcolm sounding cleans for rhythm and Angus bite on leads. Of course, a Gibson with good PAF clones helps a lot!



Thats the tones I use my VM for. haha. We think alike. The Soldano is a different story. I use Ch 1 for more classic barely overdriven sounds and Ch 2 for that Warren Haynes tone. Which is killer.


----------



## MM54

Have I posted this in here? Its a (not great) recording of the ML100, a bit of slayer. Guitar straight in, no pedals, etc. There's more low-end than the clip suggests, I need to work on mic placement.

http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Seasons_Clip.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

To all thread members, viewers. A few days ago, I posted a notice that in the next four weeks, the thread could exceed 100,000 views. Today at around 12:40 AM, we exceeded that number. We had a huge surge in the number of viewers. Congratulations to all that help in the daily running of this thread.

It blows my mind that we were able to pull this off in days, not weeks. That says a lot about the thread itself. For the most part, the thread is full of information that is old and not applicable by what we are doing today. But it was the process of obtaining it and sharing it that makes for the body of this thread.

Once again, thank you all.

100,000 VIEWS!!!


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Hi Marty and Riverratt,
Thanks for the comments, it is actually delta 5, which should make it from 65.
Looks like a 6 because it is right where one of the creases is around the bottom plate. 
Now im stoked as i only paid 20 bucks for the pair.


----------



## RiverRatt

vintagevoltage351 said:


> Hi Marty and Riverratt,
> Thanks for the comments, it is actually delta 5, which should make it from 65.
> Looks like a 6 because it is right where one of the creases is around the bottom plate.
> Now im stoked as i only paid 20 bucks for the pair.



That's always fun, isn't it? If the seller knew anything about tubes, they could have gotten double that amount for each tube. Good find - if those test any good at all, that's a helluva deal.


----------



## solarburn

Belch!


----------



## solarburn

TooBs!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I mean to say Joe we had a bunch of people in a short amount of time. Sort of like a lightning strike.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Excerpt from 11-30-2009. Member Racko talking about GE tubes and my thoughts on them.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Pretty much have said what I can tell you. When you use crap tubes and you start using damn near anything NOS, it's going to sound so much better.
> 
> Now at one time, I ran an RCA 7025 in V1 and three short plate GE Five Star 12AX7's in my TSL122. (Short plates are better to run in combos over long plates. Less chance of microphonics.) I also tried GE short black plates. The Five Stars are probably GE's best tube, but they are harder to find. Same with the black plates.
> 
> There's nothing any more special about a GE than a Sylvania, or most other NOS USA tubes. When I look for RCA's, I prefer the older one's like mid 50's to early 60's. The same with GE, I think their older one's were built to tighter tolerances, because the equipment used to make the tubes wasn't worn out. By the late 60's, this equipment was pretty much shot, but they were still making tubes on this stuff. Look into a tube and see all of the small, precise parts. Think of how they would look and fit when they were made on a 1940 piece of equipment versus that same piece of equipment in 1970.
> 
> Granted, I'll still take a 1975 USA tube over CP stuff any day. However, if you are looking for tone and are a tube roller, you never stop with what you have. When I started posting on this thread, there were three or four of us posting and rolling tubes. Several of the guys got me to take a look at what I was running in my amps. The tubes were good and I had a theory, but my theory didn't work for everyone else. I took two of my amps and started rolling a bunch of tubes in them. The final result was I am running completely different tubes than what I did just seven months ago. I was heavy into using a 7025 in V1 and this actually is the best tube to run if you use a multi-fx pedal in the front end. In this case, the amp is set to a very clean sound. The fx unit provides all of the distortion. However, using the amp with just a few pedals and relying on the tone of the amp calls for a different approach. Here is were you are looking for a "flavor" tube for V1. I prefer the tone of an Amperex (or other Philips tube). A Telefunken is very nice in V1, especially when the amp is used with a Strat or a Tele. I love that sound.
> 
> The bottom line is USA tubes are better than CP, but European tubes are better than USA tubes. They were built to more exacting standards. They had better techniques for pulling vacuums on the tubes. They just sound better. I don't mean to rain on your parade. You are a great member and I have enjoyed seeing you go from crap tubes to the RCA's and the GE's. However, Joe-SolarBurn or Alan-Ratt, are not going to say that a GE beats a Telefunken. It ain't going to happen. That's why these tubes are $45 to $200 a piece. There's a reason for this. Real tube rollers know that a Telefunken is one delicious tube. And the same for an Amperex, Valvo, Electro-Home, or Miniwatt. These tubes are just better and there is a lot more than these. Most were made by or licensed by Philips. "If it's Philip's it's got to be good."
> 
> One of the things that the regulars have agreed on is something I experimented with six or seven months ago and that is we all run a Raytheon black plate in V2. A black plate just seems to match up really well with the V1 tube. (Note: Alan was the one who paired a Telefunken up with a Black Plate. This is a bona fide V1 V2 set up.)
> 
> Look, be happy you have the GE's and the fact you got them for free. If they put a smile on your face and bring enjoyment to your playing, then what more can you possibly want?



As I stated, almost any USA tube is going to sound better than a CP. Advancing to a Euro tube is going to be even better. The point is go with what makes you happy. I used to be happy with all USA tubes in my amps, but then I expanded my line of thought and quickly realized that the Euro Philips tubes are the way to go in V1. Then the bread and butter tube, the Raytheon Black Plate in V2. If you have a V3 and V4, these can be filled with a Sylvania Gray Plate and a nice USA or Euro Phase Inverter tube. If you just have a V3, I recommend a lopsided, high gain tube.

Enjoy and welcome to the thread.


----------



## BDowell

thetragichero said:


> not sure how you could know if it's high gain, but here's from a quick search of ebay:
> 
> Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 ECC83 Black Plate Stereo Tube - eBay (item 180548246956 end time Sep-15-10 17:04:02 PDT)
> Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 ECC83 Black Plate Stereo Tube - eBay (item 400144757293 end time Sep-15-10 16:48:24 PDT)
> (first two are a seller i have used in the past and been more than satisfied with)
> 
> 2 EXCELLENT RAYTHEON BLACK PLATE 12AX7A 12AX7 TUBES - eBay (item 220662207607 end time Sep-29-10 08:11:46 PDT)
> (i would see if the seller would give you the test results.... no test results generally isn't a good sign)



Thanks so much for the links, I have never bought tubes on ebay before, but I'll check it out. I tried a Tung-Sol 12AX7 in V2 last night and it's not bad, but still not what I'm lookng for.


----------



## TwinACStacks

Well here we are Gang, with the LONG-awaited Results of the NEW GENELEX GOLD LION 12AX7. I would love to be able to tell you that Marty needs to become a Genelex New Production distributor. That Ain't gonna happen. I gave it a Fair shake. Cranked up the 800 Put a New Production Tungsol in V1 there we go. Crisp, Lots of Gain, Great Harmonics just a good, fairly bright, all around tube. Next up GENELEX, Darker, not as much Gain, fairly flat, good headroom not as good to my ears as it's little sibling Tungsol in V1. Next up a Pre War Yugo (Stamped Made in Germany) EI 12AX7 Based on the Famous Tele. Smooth Plate. This tube is TITS, It's got it all and it ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY buries the Two New production Russians.

It might be OK in the PI position--but for the $50 fucking dollars, (including shipping), that I spent, I would go see Marty for some NOS Whatevers.

Good Try but the NP Tungsols are better for less than 1/2 the price.

$25 will buy this Tube. Brand New only used in this test.

 TWIN


----------



## solarburn

Good to know Twin. Thanx for the report!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes TWIN. Thanks for your review. It answered all my questions. Maybe Joe will buy the tube for a PI slot.


----------



## MM54

This clip I made may interest you guys. (There's a nice 30-30 Telefunken from Marty in V1 )

Here we go, This is the Les Paul straight into the ML100, same eq and everything on the amp as the previous (Slayer) clip, but instead of just the bridge pickup I'm using both of them, with the tone and volume knobs rolled back for a good Sabbath tone.

Playing, not so great, but I really do like the tone. I got the mic placed a lot better this time as well.

http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/NIB-2_SAMPLE_.mp3

On a side note, I have a pretty awesome ground loop between my amp/guitar and the recording stuff. I couldn't be bothered to use the same outlet as the amp like I usually do, and depending what I touched, there was either silence or horrible amounts of noise


----------



## TwinACStacks

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes TWIN. Thanks for your review. It answered all my questions. Maybe Joe will buy the tube for a PI slot.



 Marty if no one claims it, I will send it to you as a present just to get Your opinion on it.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh boy as the hooker yelled out, "A freebie."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a box of 12AX7's that I can't believe how much money I shelled out to do testing for the forum. I pretty much have most of the common brands. Tung-Sol, Mullard RI, JJ's, Shuguang's and EH's. Oh of course, Sovtek's as well.


----------



## DirtySteve

I'll admit I haven't read this whole thread, it's soooo long, and I can only get on line at work so I don't have alot of time, but I'm doing my best to go through it. I‘d like to ask your opinion on something but I also hope to learn a lot by reading some more. 

So, if you had a Marshall Class 5, and you’d tried damn near every current production tube out there in damn near every combination you could think of, and you still want better tone, tighter response for palm muting and a little higher gain, which NOS tubes would be looking for? I'm currently using a Mullard ri in V1, a tungsol in V2 and a sovtek el84. Any advise or opinions that could help me narrow things down will be much appreciated. 

Marty, I sent you an e-mail but I thought I'd go ahead and post here, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

One of the darker Philips tubes in V1 (Mullard, Ei, Matsushita) or an RFT, and a Raytheon black plate in V2. I love that Russian 6P14P in a single-EL84 amp. They are cheap enough. Look for early 1970's production or before on those for the best tubes.


----------



## DirtySteve

RiverRatt said:


> One of the darker Philips tubes in V1 (Mullard, Ei, Matsushita) or an RFT, and a Raytheon black plate in V2. I love that Russian 6P14P in a single-EL84 amp. They are cheap enough. Look for early 1970's production or before on those for the best tubes.



Thank you RiverRatt. I have been doing some reading today. It seems I need to look for a Raytheon black plate for V2 first. I've seen that most it seems. I have alot to learn. There's alot of info in here. Also been reading in the power tube thread and Marty's posts on the first page alone gave me alot to think about. I hadn't seen that thread yet. One thing I got so far was preamp tubes first, then worry about power, so that's my game plan now. Now to figure out V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, those 6P14P tubes are wonderful. They are like a military-grade EL84's and they can be had NOS for about the same price as a current production EL84. Marty, do you still have your Russian connection for those?


----------



## thetragichero

marty, do you have any russian connections for skinny blondes?


----------



## 13eastie

I inherited this Mullard pre-amp valve:




It has on it a code that reads:
I 6 2
B 4 E2​and appears to state "MADE IN GREAT BRITAIN".

I'm not at all familiar with these codes, but having had a look at http://www.audiotubes.com/mullcode.htm it looks to me like the code means that the valve is a 12AX7 made in Blackburn in May '64.

Am I at all near the mark, and would this valve be worth using in my Class 5?

Cheers.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

What are ya'lls thoughts on a coupla tubes...Sylvania 6681....and RCA Black Plate with a Square getter?


----------



## eljeffebrown

Got a buddy who just bought a Bogner Ubershall, Revision: blue. he is going to Pre tube it, here are his choices. any help would be appreciated thanx guys! 

V1 - Tung-Sol
V2 - Chinese/Sovtek LPS/JJ ECC83
V3 - Chinese
V4 - JJ ECC803s
V5 - Balanced Chinese
V6 - Balanced Sovtek LPS

Current plan for the pre's. V1 is shared between both channels, V2-3 are for the gain channel, V4 for the clean, V5 the FX Loop, and V6 the PI. 

I'm going to have to sit and play with V1 and all the different options for a while, but research is telling me that Tung-Sol is going to kick some butt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DirtySteve said:


> Marty, I sent you an e-mail but I thought I'd go ahead and post here, too.



I never received an email (or PM) from you.

I have Black Plates and I still have a couple of the EL84's that Ratt is referring to. Contact me for more info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DirtySteve said:


> Now to figure out V1.



You will want to run a high gain Philips in this slot. Amperex, Mullard, Mini Watt, or BEL to name a few.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, do you still have your Russian connection for those?



Yes I do, but his inventory changes and the last time I looked he didn't have any of the early EL84's. 

And it only pays to order from him if you place a large order. It takes about a month to get it and once he sent me 24 wrong tubes.


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## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> marty, do you have any russian connections for skinny blondes?



Yes I do and many of them speak English and love rock and roll.:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

13eastie said:


> I inherited this Mullard pre-amp valve:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has on it a code that reads:
> I 6 2
> B 4 E2​and appears to state "MADE IN GREAT BRITAIN".
> 
> I'm not at all familiar with these codes, but having had a look at Mullard, Philips, and Valvo Tube Codes it looks to me like the code means that the valve is a 12AX7 made in Blackburn in May '64.
> 
> Am I at all near the mark, and would this valve be worth using in my Class 5?
> 
> Cheers.



That looks about right. That looks like a 1964 Mullard. If the tube is good, it would be a very nice tube for a Class 5. The problem is not knowing how the tube will test. It could be weak, or weak on one side and this would affect its performance. Without a tester, all you can do is try it in V1 and see how it sounds. Let your ears be the judge.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chuckharmonjr said:


> What are ya'lls thoughts on a coupla tubes...Sylvania 6681....and RCA Black Plate with a Square getter?



I answered this already, but not here on the thread. The RCA Black Plate is not in the same league as the Raytheon Black Plate. However, I would still take the RCA BP over current production tubes.

The 6681 is basically a "ruggedized" 12AX7. This affects the musical tonality of the tube. For the most part, I feel that 6681's are stiff sounding compared to a normal 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

eljeffebrown said:


> Got a buddy who just bought a Bogner Ubershall, Revision: blue. he is going to Pre tube it, here are his choices. any help would be appreciated thanx guys!
> 
> V1 - Tung-Sol
> V2 - Chinese/Sovtek LPS/JJ ECC83
> V3 - Chinese
> V4 - JJ ECC803s
> V5 - Balanced Chinese
> V6 - Balanced Sovtek LPS
> 
> Current plan for the pre's. V1 is shared between both channels, V2-3 are for the gain channel, V4 for the clean, V5 the FX Loop, and V6 the PI.
> 
> I'm going to have to sit and play with V1 and all the different options for a while, but research is telling me that Tung-Sol is going to kick some butt.



With this amp and his tube choices, it looks like he wants to set this up as a high gain beast. The Chinese tubes are a favorite for high gain, but they can be grainy and noisy sounding. The following suggestions are for high gain applications only.

V1-Tung-Sol, high gain/low noise.
V2-Mullard RI, low noise.
V3-Mullard RI, high gain.
V4-Tung-Sol, low noise
V5-Regular EH. Does not have to be balanced.
V6-Regular EH. Does not have to be balanced.

The myth behind a balanced tube is total BS. In fact, an unbalanced PI tube actually improves the overall tone of the amp. In a guitar amp, you want more asymmetrical sinewaves. This produces more even order harmonics and gives you that Gary Moore, Carlos Santana type of sustain. These are some of the secret tricks that the amp techs perform on the amps to get them to sound their best. THEY ARE NOT USING BALANCED PI TUBES.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thank you Marty! _...PM sent!_


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## eljeffebrown

Thanx Marty. I relayed the info, lets see what he does.


----------



## BDowell

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a box of 12AX7's that I can't believe how much money I shelled out to do testing for the forum. I pretty much have most of the common brands. Tung-Sol, Mullard RI, JJ's, Shuguang's and EH's. Oh of course, Sovtek's as well.




I just pm'd you about the tubes.


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## jrock75

Whats the best sounding el34s, just wanting some suggestions?


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## RiverRatt

Since nobody seems to be talking about tubes lately, what's for dinner? I'm cooking up a big ol' bunch of jambalaya with chicken, caribou sausage (courtesy of our Alaskan neighbors), shrimp, crawfish and crab. Got a bunch of Sam Adams Octoberfest to wash it down with and a bottle of Yucatan Sunshine habanero hot sauce to make it interesting.


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## joshuaaewallen

Damn Ratt Man! I like the way you think!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well... I've got some crap that was originally gonna be enchiladas, but after a few beers and forgetting to check the oven... Turned into more of what we Minnesotan's might call.a hot-dish...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

..
Sort of...


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## MM54

I had a steak and cheese calzone thingy. It was pretty good. Then I went up to my room and cranked my amp for a while while nobody was home. It was better.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... I'm sorry... Did I say fajitas? I meant "mystery mush wrapped in a tortilla and thrown in the oven..."


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thank God for tin-foil..
It makes culinary screwups much easier to clean up...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Did someone say "tubes"?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU56_4x71jk[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

Speaking of tubes, I picked up a Sony reel-to-reel recorder today. It's loaded with NEC 6762 (EF86) pre's and some little sub-miniature 35_ _ tubes. I can't decide if I want to sell the thing as-is or tear it apart and re-use the SE output transformers and EF86 pre's to build a little Vox clone.


----------



## RiverRatt

BUUURRRPPPPP.

Shoot me in the head and put me out of my misery. I don't know if I can make room for that last swallow of beer.


----------



## MM54

Nice find, Ratt. It's been far too long since I got anything new to mess with. It's that stupid "I don't have any money since school's back in session" thing. I can hardly bring myself to spend $2 to get lunch at this point.


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## RiverRatt

I'm turning into one hell of a scavenger. Maybe I should change my name to "Tube Buzzard" or something. Today I was on the side of the biggest f'ing highway in this part of the state tearing the guts out of an old 1972 RCA console TV. I got the amp out of it (all SS), and every board that was easily detached. There were tons of poly caps and those big ol' dog bone shaped 5w resistors, and I got some nice old double-ganged CTS pots and some toggle switches. I'm getting a nice collection of those pots if you ever need one in your radio restoration. I also picked up an old Zenith console radio with the push buttons on the front and the big cardboard fold-out antenna. I think that most of the tubes are 4-pin but I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet. I know where there's another one with a single-end 6V6 amp in it if it hasn't sold yet. Dude wants $45 for it and I don't think it's worth it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Geez Alan, maybe you should change your username to Tube Buzzard. It does have a good sound to it. Or... Ya know... That'd be a good name for a band... The Tube Buzzards. I like that.

I have found jack squat for old radios and tv's lately.  ...but... I finally got my PRS back from the shop. Complete with Sustainiac and a Duncan Alnico II in the bridge.


----------



## thetragichero

howdy fellas
rft and valvo 12ax7s finally came in the mail today
put the rft in v1 of the dsl and i'll be able to hear it in action at band practice saturday


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## MartyStrat54

What is the Valvo like? I might be inclined to use the Valvo over the RFT. Let me know how they work out.


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## thetragichero

haven't tried yet
i don't get home until late, or a chance to really wail on the amp until saturdays


----------



## thetragichero

as a side note, it seems like i like taking on multiple projects at once.... gutting a rewiring my bassist's pbass (done except i'm waiting for pickups and pickguard), building/modifying a booster pedal kit, decided to try to tweak my little squier champ for shits and giggles, looking to pick up a 5e3 kit, thinkin about building a desk for the studio/another guitar.... i think i might have a problem!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thetragichero said:


> as a side note, it seems like i like taking on multiple projects at once...
> 
> ... i think i might have a problem!



ADHD!  Rock on mate. I'm curious to hear your review as well... Keep us posted.


----------



## RiverRatt

That 5E3 circuit is so basic, you could probably throw it together out of spare parts. Sometimes that works out cheaper, especially if you ca find a 15w or so donor amp. My build was a 5E3x2 inside a Crate G40C chorus amp. I think I only had to order an OT and a handful of caps and pots. It didn't cost much at all.


----------



## jensbrix

So, gonna shop some tubes for my 4100... What do you think of this shopping cart?
2x JJ ECC83S
1x EH 12AX7
1x Tung Sol 12AX7
Also thought of maybe adding a Sovtek? What is your opinions?

Btw, powertubes gonna be EL34L.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What slots are you going to put them in? I'm not real big on JJ unless you are going to use them in the PI and TS/CF slots.


----------



## RiverRatt

What a Saturday! I was actually turning down decent deals. First off, I got a Philco 2-cabinet stereo setup. Cabinet one is the tuner and turntable. Cabinet 2 is a complete amp! I just plugged a guitar into one of the RCA inputs and holy cats! About 2 watts of screaming tube tone (well, maybe not screaming). Each Philco cab has two 6CZ5 power tubes, a 5Y3GT rectifier, and one uses a 12AX7 in V1 and a 7025 in V2. The other uses a 12AX7 in V1 and a 6CG7 in V2. There's a strange variety of sub-mini's doing other duties.

Next, I picked up a Silvertone stereo for $25. MASSIVE iron in this thing. It's basically _two SE 6BQ5 amps with a 5U4GB rectifier_. Looks like this one may be the excuse I need to build that 18-watt clone. Nothing whatsoever exciting about the preamp on this one. Mostly all sub-mini's.

To wrap it up, I bought a CTS alnico 12" speaker with a square magnet and a set of Ping 3+3 tuners and various junk. Grand total for today's outing was under $100. I also have a SE 6V6 radio/turntable amp that I can snag for $45 if I want it. I think I have enough to keep me busy for awhile! The Tube Buzzard strikes again!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

It must be nice to live in the part of the country where the average household has a 1964 tube TV set. Sounds like way more tube action than I'll ever see.


----------



## RiverRatt

We went about 30 miles east to a town in a county that doesn't even have a Walmart. The court square had little antique malls and thrift stores all around it. I had a nice ribeye lunch and worked it off lifting stereo cabinets and loading them into the Traverse. It's nice having a vehicle you can fit that much stuff in if you happen to run across it. I haven't even checked out all the 12AX7's yet, but I have a good feeling about these 6BQ5's. They are black plates, but made like a Philips tube. No seams on the top, but they have the deepest dimple around the exhaust tip that I have ever seen. My digital camera is dead or I'd have posted some shots by now. I'll definitely be hitting this town again soon. There's a music store/TV repair shop that closed at 1 p.m. I got there at 1:05. I know the dude was hiding in there waiting until I left because when I went back by the shop 5 minutes later his pickup was gone from out front. He had an Ampeg GV-15 sitting in the place!!!!! I got a phone number off the window and I'm going to call Monday and see what he's asking for it. It looks just like the one Keef is playing in that picture I posted a few pages back.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just checked the second Philco amp. The 12AX7 is a Siemens/Halske short gray ribbed plate tube. The 7025 is a damned old G.E.


----------



## MM54

Lucky


----------



## RiverRatt

We should do one of those reality shows. We could get a $10,000 budget and travel the roads buying up tubes. No wives would watch it. Mine sees it every time we go out and hit the antique/thrift stores (except for the budget thing... mine's about 1/100th of that on a good day).


----------



## jensbrix

MartyStrat54 said:


> What slots are you going to put them in? I'm not real big on JJ unless you are going to use them in the PI and TS/CF slots.



I've heard that the Tung Sol can't take the V1 in a JCM 900 as a cathode follower or so, so I'll probably go for JJ in V1 and V3, and look for something different for V2


----------



## MM54

I ran a tung sol reissuee in v1 of my 4500 for a while with no problems at all, it sounded decent, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most of the failure issues had to do with the Cathode Follower. Some amps have insane voltages running on the plates of a 12AX7.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are a few tube shots. Here's the Siemens und Halske:









And here's the Silvertone 6BQ5's. I need some help identifying these. Note the "U" shaped heat fins and the D foil getter. Along with the black plates, I'm inclined to believe that these are old RCA tubes. Anyone have any ideas? I know I've seen tubes with that deep dimple on the top before...


----------



## MM54

Those are nice! 

Speaking of tube finds, that organ speaker/amp that he has the cable to that hooks up to an organ with a cable that the guy has has been relisted AGAIN, at $150 still. I was actually thinking this morning I might call him and offer him $50 for it since he's having trouble getting rid of it, and I wouldn't mind a new handful of tubes to play with.


----------



## MM54

Tubes!

I noticed yesterday that my tone was a little off, so today I figured what the hell, I'll pick a tube from the shelf and roll it. I picked my IEC Mullard and put it in the cathode follower (V2) and it sounds great! I don't know if the GE is on the way out or if I'm nuts, but it sounds a lot better now. (It wasn't in there before because it tests like 95%/96% on my tester, so not really a V2 tube in my opinion)


----------



## thetragichero

tried out the rft and valvo in v1
both were an improvement over the matsushita, but i felt like the rft had a little more emphasis on the high end than i would prefer (i should probably mention that i tend to be very sensitive to treble frequencies... used to keep presence/treble <3 until i noticed it sounded lifeless on the recording of last practice)
i have the valvo in there now... seems to give a bit better low end
now i sit and wait for the two black powder speakers to show up...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sort of thought that the Valvo would be the winner. The RFT is better than USA NOS, but it falls a little short of the Philips tubes.


----------



## thetragichero

i should've done it awhile ago... now i have two good, spare nos tubes before i have to resort to the 4 cp tung sol... and then 3 cp jjs (less than 10$ for the set and they tested strong) if i'm really desperate!


----------



## TwinACStacks

Hey Marty, You get a Chance to test that Tube I sent You yet?


 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

TwinACStacks said:


> Hey Marty, You get a Chance to test that Tube I sent You yet?
> 
> 
> TWIN



No I haven't. I've been as busy as a Catholic priest at a Good Friday Fish Fry. As soon as I get a moment, I will test it on the tube tester and then give it a whirl.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> I tested that tube. Wow, it's hot. 34-35. This tube could actually be causing unwanted circuit distortion. I won't know until I try it. I would say it's too hot for V1. 31-31 is about at hot as I go.
> 
> I'll give it a shot in the JMP.



Well the Gold Lion was buzzy in V2, so I didn't even bother with it in V1. I ended up putting it in the PI and it worked well in that slot. There is a limit to what you can run in a gain circuit and 34-35 is too much tube. I wish it was a 30-31.


----------



## RiverRatt

Did you ever get a chance to try those GT EL34M's? We're still waiing for a tone report.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did you ever get a chance to try those GT EL34M's? We're still waiing for a tone report.



Yes I did try them out in my JMP 2204 and the TSL 602. They sounded better in the JMP. I have Mullards in the 602 as the plate voltage is above 500. I had real Fat Boy 6CA7's in the 2204. I am now running Sanborn RFT EL34's for the fun of it. 

The EL34M's are decent tubes. I can't vouch on their reliability, but as far as tone goes, they do have a little bit of that Mullard sound to them. At lower volumes, the real Mullards just shine. It seems that when you crank a CP power tube, it does the cranked sound pretty good. The low volume is another matter.

I will send these back to you in the coming week or so.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. Not a glowing review, but not bad for a CP tube 

Don't be in any hurry to return them. I figure I'll have two or three shipments of tubes coming from you anyway. Keep 'em as long as you want. If you like them, keep them forever as a small token of my appreciation.


----------



## thetragichero

ordered the 5e3 kit
will be a few weeks before i can get to it, as i'm working on a booster pedal (with a 4-way rotary switch to choose between clipping diodes) and building a desk and/ord shelf system for the pa speakers/guitar cases


----------



## TwinACStacks

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the Gold Lion was buzzy in V2, so I didn't even bother with it in V1. I ended up putting it in the PI and it worked well in that slot. There is a limit to what you can run in a gain circuit and 34-35 is too much tube. I wish it was a 30-31.



 Marty I'm assuming they come hot from the Reflektor factory that WASN'T supposed to be a High Gain tube. Came from The Tube Store. I just know that The NOS EI's and that Raytheon Blackplate just KILLED it easily in any Position I tried it in.

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was surprised to see it this hot. I figured they would have made 90-95 mu their target for gain. This is actually hotter than most Chinese tubes. Most of the high gain Shuguangs are like 31 or 32 (on my tester).


----------



## thetragichero

so i already have V1 figured out for the 5E3 build (NOS 12AV7 instead of 12AY7), but what 12AX7 should i put in V2.... raytheon grey plate or sylvania grey plate?
i figure i'll take one of those out of the dsl (currently V3 and V4, respectively) and replace it with either the rft or matsushita


----------



## RiverRatt

I like a 12AX7 in V1 and V2 of a 5E3, but to each his own. I personally wouldn't use anything weaker than a 5751. And honestly, you don't need to waste a bunch of tubes that are working good in your Marshall. RCA, GE or Sylvania 12AX7's are good rugged tubes that sound great in a Fender circuit. Get some good medium-gainers and you'll be happy with just about anything in there.


----------



## LesPaulopolis

I just got 3 RI Mullards from a friend...from what I gather they're a little lower in the gain department (have not heard them in person). Think I'll have any use for them in my 6100 or should I just pass 'em on / sell 'em online?


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks a ton Marty! (I sent you a PM but I thought I should post a bit of a review here, too.)

My tubes arrived yesterday afternoon. A high gain Phillips Mini Watt for V1, a high gain Raytheon Black Plate for V2, and a Russian el84. 





Swapped 'em into my Class 5 last night and though I didn't have much time to play, my initial impression, I was very impressed with the preamp tubes. It was the first time I’ve ever swapped in tubes and didn’t immediately know there was something I was going to have to live with or try to dial out or try another tube. They're great!! I wish I'd done this a long time ago! To me the difference on the preamp tubes is significant, although subtle. They sound great, more musical, fuller, less harshness overall. The amp seems to breakup about the same spot but as I increase volume it gets slightly higher gain and a little bit tighter. Now I’m getting much closer to the rock tones I‘m looking for. not quite as clean when rolling off the guitar vol. but I don't use this amp for clean.

The jury’s still out on the EL84. My first impression is that it sounds great, it‘s sweeter and smoother, but it seems like its lower gain than the CP el84s I've tried, but I can’t tell if maybe it’s just smoother or something else but it seems like it’s not as aggressive. I’ll have to play it more before I really have an opinion on it. 

I'm glad I finally decided to see what I was missing. Although I'm ruined now, I know I can never go back to current production preamp tubes.

Anyway, thanks to Marty and thanks RiverRat for the suggestion on the Raytheon. 

Steve


----------



## RiverRatt

It's great when things work out the way they are supposed to. The Russian EL84 may not be for you. I liked it in my Blackheart head a lot, but I boosted that amp as it didn't have a MV. It does have a little more clean headroom than just about any other EL84-type tube. Give it a good workout before you give up on it. I like the clarity of the 6P14P even when pushed - to me a lot of single EL84 amps are too fuzzy when you crank them, but not with that Russian tube.


----------



## CKCinMass

I ran across a few old 12AX7's and was wondering if I have anything decent here or nothing special.

I found and old RCA made in Great Britain, an old Sylvania made in USA and an an old TEN which I believe was made in Japan.

Let me know what you think.


----------



## MM54

Does that RCA flash when you start up the heater? It looks a hell of a lot like my 1962 Mullard. I see a seam on top - is there just one across or does it make an X?


----------



## CKCinMass

I actually havent tried the RCA yet. I let you know when I do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The RCA is a Mullard. Mullard was under contract with RCA to make tubes because RCA jumped out of tube production so quickly they needed people to make their tubes. 

I can't tell from the TEN picture what it is. It almost looks like a slant top getter. Is it? The getter is either O or D shaped at the top of the tube and under the shiny material at the top of the tube.


----------



## CKCinMass

MartyStrat54 said:


> The RCA is a Mullard. Mullard was under contract with RCA to make tubes because RCA jumped out of tube production so quickly they needed people to make their tubes.
> 
> I can't tell from the TEN picture what it is. It almost looks like a slant top getter. Is it? The getter is either O or D shaped at the top of the tube and under the shiny material at the top of the tube.



It's an O shped getter.

Is the RCA / Mullard a decent tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

CKCinMass said:


> I ran across a few old 12AX7's and was wondering if I have anything decent here or nothing special.
> 
> I found and old RCA made in Great Britain, an old Sylvania made in USA and an an old TEN which I believe was made in Japan.
> 
> Let me know what you think.



I don't know - the RCA/Gt. Britain looks suspiciously like an old pre-war Ei to me. Am I seeing smooth plates? 

There was a Japanese company called "Ten" that sold re-labeled Toshibas IIRC.


----------



## CKCinMass

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know - the RCA/Gt. Britain looks suspiciously like an old pre-war Ei to me. Am I seeing smooth plates?
> 
> There was a Japanese company called "Ten" that sold re-labeled Toshibas IIRC.



The plates on the RCA are smooth.


----------



## RiverRatt

Betcha it's an Ei then. They flash on power-up, too. Look for a code printed near the bottom of the tube that looks like an upside-down "U" with a dot in the middle. That's the Ei Yugoslavia factory code. Ei was owned by Philips and made their 12AX7's on equipment purchased from Telefunken, thus the smooth plates. Good tubes! They usually do really well in V1. Marshall actually relabeled these and used them as original equipment in their amps for several years.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All the one's I have dealt with have been ribbed plate Mullards. I did buy one batch that was RFT's and they were smooth plates. 

Another example of a tube saying, "Made in Gt. Britain," when in reality it is not made in Gt. Britain at all.


----------



## diesect20022000

CKCinMass said:


> It's an O shped getter.
> 
> Is the RCA / Mullard a decent tube?



is that Pennsylvania Dutch?Ther're alot of Amish out here...

sorry just having some fun.


----------



## thetragichero

i've got a raytheon black plate, ge, and bell & howell 12ax7s on there way


----------



## MartyStrat54

What's the deal with Amperex, Sylvania, and Philips? What is "Philips ECG", and why is it different than European Philips or Philips Miniwatt?

Man, the answer makes trying to sort out the facts of the Mexican Revolution seem easy.

Here's the history on this. Royal Philips, NV, is a Dutch based company (royal, because they've got a charter from the Dutch monarchy), began as a lightbulb manufacturerin 1891 and later expanded their range to many types of electronic components (tubes in the 1920's), and electrical & electronic consumer products. Being shrewd and profit minded as the Dutch are prone to be, and bearing in mind many of the tricky legalities involved in exports in pre-Common Market Europe, Philips began acquiring tube manufacturers in other countries, and licensing designs to other tube manufacturers in localities where they could not buy into the market (such as Japan). They also licensed tube designs from US tube manufacturers such as Western Electric (yes, they made some WE numbers such as 310A).
Some of the brands owned by Philips were Mullard, Valvo, Mazda, Adzam, Miniwatt and Dario.

Amperex was originally a small industrial tube manufacturer in Long Island, NY. After WW2, Philips acquired this company (which continued to make certain tube types in the USA, including the ubiquitous 6922), and began using them to distribute European made Philips products (including but not limited to tubes, there were also Amperex semiconductors, resistors & whatnot) in the USA.The products sold could've been from the Netherlands (made by Philips themselves), or any of their subsidiary companies, across Europe or elsewhere. So strictly speaking, there's very few tubes that were actually made by Amperex, and these tubes would've been sold in Europe under their home brand names. So what you've got in a 1960's Amperex tube would've really been a Philips Miniwatt if it was marked "Made in Holland", a Valvo if it was made in Germany, and so forth...usually. Philips, like other tube manufacturers, was not adverse to buying in tubes from other tube manufacturers to fill out their distributor product line, so simply being labelled Amperex doesn't mean it was made by Philips or a Philips company.

Sylvania was yet another lightbulb manufacturer that got into the tube (and later, radio) business. In the 1930's they merged with the Hygrade company and adopted Hygrade's logo. Some military tubes made by Sylvania are marked "Hygrade Sylvania Corp.". In 1959, Sylvania merged with AT&T/Bell Telephone's much smaller but feisty rival, General Telephone Corp, to create General Telephone and Electronics (GTE), I would guess because General Telephone was jealous of the big profits AT&T's Western Electric subsidiary was making in manufacturing & licensing electronic components. So, GTE made telephones [Automatic Electric], electronic components [Sylvania] and ran a telephone system [General Telephone], just like AT&T, sort of, albeit on a much smaller scale. Consider that in the 1960's, AT&T was the world's largest and most profitable company, so aping AT&T made plenty of sense at the time.

In the 1970's GTE reorganized Sylvania into several "groups", the Lighting Group, the Consumer Electronics Group, and the Electronic Components Group. Thus , Sylvania tubes began carrying the "Sylvania ECG" logo, ECG meaning Electronic Components Group. Sylvania was a large supplier of all types of replacement electronic components to electronic distributors at the time, including both tubes and transistors.Its successor, Philips ECG, still is.

About 1980, some weird transactions took place. Philips got tired of making tubes in Europe, and its Amperex subsidiary wasn't doing too well, so they sold off their English & Dutch tube making assets and the rights to the Mullard & Amperex brand names to Richardson Electronics of La Fox, IL, and withdrew the license to use the Mullard brand name from International Electronic Components of Long Island, NY.But at almost the same time, in a shrewd move that greatly strengthened their position in electronic components and consumer electronics in the USA, they bought the Electronic Components and Consumer Electronics divisions of Sylvania from GTE, which included the Sylvania tube plant. This plant continued to make the same tubes, but under the new Philips ECG brandname, which doesn't have anything to do with European Philips Miniwatt, or Amperex tubes.Production was discontinued ca. 1987, but Philips continued (and as far as we know still does) to market tubes under the Philips ECG brand name, by outsourcing tubes from current production manufacturers, when stocks of US made tubes were exhausted.

The Amperex & Mullard brand names (as well as TungSol) as noted above are trademarks owned by Richardson Electronics, Ltd, which continues to market tubes under the Amperex brand name. The larger & more expensive industrial Amperex tubes are indeed made by Richardson, but the smaller tubes (like what you'd use in a usual hifi or guitar amp) are not, they're either US military surplus (usually, Philips ECG) or current production sources such as Svetlana or Tesla-JJ. New Sensor Corp is marketing new reproductions of Mullard & TungSol tubes, we don't know whether they own the names or merely licensing their use from Richardson.

GTE retained ownership of the Sylvania Lighting Group, which it sold to Osram GMBH in 1993. Sylvania Osram is now a division of Siemens.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Although there were several major production runs of Amperex ECC83's, the majority of Amperex tubes are actually Mini Watts if the tube says, "Made in Holland" on it.


----------



## MM54

Very interesting.


----------



## RiverRatt

For those of you in Australia (or anyone who wants to pay $20 shipping on a tube), here's one of the best-sounding sleeper tubes you'll ever run across. Just ask Joe (Solar) if you don't believe me. 

*I accept no responsibility if you buy this tube and it sucks/is dead/smells bad/is a relabeled JJ/etc... I haven't had a bad D-getter Matsushita but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. If this tube is good, however, I'd pick it over a Mullard every time.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-x-Matsushita-ECC83-12AX7-long-plate-angled-sqr-getter-/150502689063?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item230aa8c927


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> For those of you in Australia (or anyone who wants to pay $20 shipping on a tube), here's one of the best-sounding sleeper tubes you'll ever run across. Just ask Joe (Solar) if you don't believe me.
> 
> *I accept no responsibility if you buy this tube and it sucks/is dead/smells bad/is a relabeled JJ/etc... I haven't had a bad D-getter Matsushita but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. If this tube is good, however, I'd pick it over a Mullard every time.
> 
> 1 x Matsushita ECC83 12AX7 long plate angled sqr getter - eBay (item 150502689063 end time Oct-10-10 04:33:25 PDT)



Yep.


----------



## thetragichero

god i love craigslist... picked up a solid state ampeg bass head and a hartke 4x10 for 240$ this morning


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice grab. How big is the SS Ampeg head?


----------



## thetragichero

2 rack units
it's like 250 watts @ 8ohms, 400 watts @ 4ohms (something like that.... it's in my studio at home).... cab is 8ohms, and i think my bassist's 1x12/15 is 8ohms so potentially some killer sound for gigs (wanna try a side-by-side comparison with his behringer ultrabass head)
head is an ampeg B2R

will be nice to get to crank my amp more since i tend to drown everybody else out


----------



## RiverRatt

Introducing... my new EICO 666 tube tester! I picked it up for $40 tonight. This one even WORKS, unlike my other one that cost 3x as much. I've already picked Marty's brain about it, but if anyone knows anything more about it, I'd love to hear it.






The guy threw in a pretty nice 12AX7 with it. It's an oddball tube if ever I've seen one. It has smooth plates, no seams on top, no diamond on the bottom, and it flashes on power-up. I'm thinking it may be one of the RFT Telefunkens that Marty has mentioned several times.


----------



## MartyStrat54

These guys have all of the manuals and "corrected" roll charts for the 667. I think the 666 is the same chart.

ROLL CHART SETUP DATA for EICO 667 Tube Tester Checker - eBay (item 120515023405 end time Nov-03-10 09:16:45 PDT)


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, I'm going to see if I can download one first, then I may come back for that copy. I've been comparing your numbers to mine. I have and Ei that you tested at 40/29 and I got 100 and 68.


----------



## solarburn

Well thats cool Alan! Sure would be handy having a tube tester at home...


----------



## ken361

nice score!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 666 test more of the older style tubes and the 667 tests more of the modern ones, so the tube chart "will" be different.


----------



## RiverRatt

Picked up a nice turntable today. It's a GE with two SE EL84 amps in it. It has a 5Y3 rectifier, two 7189 power tubes, and each amp uses 1/2 of a 12AX7 for the preamp.


----------



## MM54

Very nice Ratt! You've got to have quite a pile of this old equipment stacking up


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Picked up a nice turntable today. It's a GE with two SE EL84 amps in it. It has a 5Y3 rectifier, two 7189 power tubes, and each amp uses 1/2 of a 12AX7 for the preamp.



I'm not following you. Is this a three channel amp? Two EL84 SE and one 7189? These were common for a long time. The bass was taken care of by the 7189's to around 150Hz and the two EL84 amps did the "stereo sound."

If I'm not right, please explain.


----------



## RiverRatt

No - It's 1/2 of a 12AX7 driving a 7189 (EL34, 6BQ5) each. I just called it an EL84 amp because that's the equivalent. I've got so much going on right now that I don't know what to do first. The parts from this will help out a lot with my 18-watt build I think. I'm glad to pick up another good 5Y3, although I wish the GE amp had been EZ81 rectified.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

You seem to find a lot of cool stuff Alan. There's just never anything like that around here. Color me jealous mate! 

Rock on!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> You seem to find a lot of cool stuff Alan. There's just never anything like that around here. Color me jealous mate!
> 
> Rock on!



It's there. You've got to get out and look. I find my best stuff when we just pick some random town and do a drive through. If we see a thrift store with antiques, junk, anything like that, we stop and go through it. You have to look at EVERYTHING that looks interesting. Those old turntables and hi-fi sets came in some weird packages. I passed on a Bogen turntable that looked like military surplus equipment from the 1940's. The guy told me I could do anything I wanted to it including taking it apart, but we had to be somewhere and it just didn't look that promising. It might have had a 6V6 amp and a 6SN7 or two but I don't really need any more junk like that. 

When I bought the GE, it was buried under a pile of stuff. I literally had to dig it out. I took it two rooms up to the front of the store and asked the guy in charge what he was asking. He said $50. I whistled softly and started back to where I picked it up. He said "What were you thinking?". I said it wasn't worth more than $20 to me. I got it for $25. You have to do a little horse trading.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> It's there. You've got to get out and look. I find my best stuff when we just pick some random town and do a drive through. If we see a thrift store with antiques, junk, anything like that, we stop and go through it. You have to look at EVERYTHING that looks interesting. Those old turntables and hi-fi sets came in some weird packages. I passed on a Bogen turntable that looked like military surplus equipment from the 1940's. The guy told me I could do anything I wanted to it including taking it apart, but we had to be somewhere and it just didn't look that promising. It might have had a 6V6 amp and a 6SN7 or two but I don't really need any more junk like that.
> 
> When I bought the GE, it was buried under a pile of stuff. I literally had to dig it out. I took it two rooms up to the front of the store and asked the guy in charge what he was asking. He said $50. I whistled softly and started back to where I picked it up. He said "What were you thinking?". I said it wasn't worth more than $20 to me. I got it for $25. You have to do a little horse trading.



Maybe that's my problem... I'm more of a black and white shopper...


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up the April 1996 issue of Guitar magazine at the Great Escape in Nashville last weekend. Here's some "truths" for you all about tubes. 

_*Note that this is provided for your entertainment only. I don't think this person (Lisa Sharken) knows a tube from a hole in the ground._

12AX7: Even response, classic tone. Usually found in most tube preamps.
7025: Hotter, creates more gain and high end than 12AX7. Usually found in hotter tube preamps.
ECC83: Flat response, produces more of a "vintage" sound than 12AX7 or 7025. Usually found in older, vintage amps.
12AT7: Usually used in the reverb section. Provides amp functions like phase splitting or as a driver tube, not tone. Usually found in amps with reverb.
12AU7: Similar in specifications to 12AT7 with slightly more output. Usually used as phase inverter in high-power amps with clean tones. Usually found in amps with reverb.
12AY7: Very similar in tone and specifications to 12AX7, with which they can be interchanged. Usually found in older, vintage amps.

Well, there you have it. Now nobody will have to ever ask these questions again, unless you want correct answers or something silly like that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, there you have it. Now nobody will have to ever ask these questions again, unless you want correct answers or something silly like that.



This is just plain silly. Worst of the worst. She doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That's hilarious...


----------



## thetragichero

woohoo after i realized i made a few stupid mistakes (not plugging the transistor into the slot, plugging it in the wrong way), my booster pedal finally works!
still need to do some painting/clear coats on it and then i'll post pictures and clips


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got my Tubescreamer clone on EBAY for a lot less than I could have built it for. It never got any bids, so I got it for the starting price. Works great and has that vintage sound to it.


----------



## thetragichero

i probably have about 40$ and a couple hours work in it
basically i was looking for something to practice my soldering on before i work on the 5E3 kit, and something that was semi-unique (4-way rotary switch selects between symmetrical Ge, asymmetrical LED, asymmetrical LED/Si/Ge, and symmetrical Si diodes... so it goes anywhere from soft-clip to aggressive distortion on my dsl's classic crunch channel)


----------



## bones

RiverRatt said:


> Introducing... my new EICO 666 tube tester! I picked it up for $40 tonight. This one even WORKS, unlike my other one that cost 3x as much. I've already picked Marty's brain about it, but if anyone knows anything more about it, I'd love to hear it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've had an EICO 666 for a few years and I will say this: You can breeze through a bunch of 12AX7's or similar dual triodes real quick. Not like a Hickok where you have to turn switches to test each triode section.
> 
> That said, I have done a lot of reading and research on these models starting with the Tone Lounge and on to books (Tube Testers and Classic Electronic Test Gear) and the Antique Radio Forums.
> 
> There is some skepticism about the method that the 666 uses to measure mutual conductance as noted in the Tube Tester book. That doesn't bother me. What you get on a 666 is a relative number. I have a Hickok for measuring true Gm.
> 
> What concerned me more is that, according to the Tone Lounge and the Antiuque Radio Forum, the 666 (and 667) roll charts specifiy settings that really punish some tubes (including 12AX7's) when you do the Merit (Dyanamic Mutual Conductance) test. For example, it's stated that normal plate current for a 12AX7 is around 0.5 mA. But the roll chart setting providing the lowest plate current hits it at just over 1 mA with others going over 5 mA. That's why you see the warning not to hold the Merit switch on any longer than it takes to get a stable reading. (I had to edit some of the numbers. The original numbers were regarding 12AT7).
> 
> I found a guy on the AR Forum who did some empirical testing and developed 666 and 667 settings that give good readings but keep the plate current down to more reasonable values. If you are interested in the spreadsheet let me know.
> 
> I also modded my 666 to be able to read plate current while doing the Merit test. All it involves is lifitng one lead from the Merit switch and adding two binding posts between the lead and the switch terminal. Connect your DVM to the binding posts and read plate current. If I don't care about plate current I use a jumper between the binding posts to complete the Merit switch circuit. This helped me prove out the spreadsheet settings.
> 
> More reading:
> Tales From The Tone Lounge; The Idiot's Guide To TubeTesters!
> 
> Here's the EICO page:
> http://www.tone-lizard.com/Eico666.html
> 
> http://www.antiqueradios.com/
> (I'm having trouble accessing the forums here but this is the home page)
> 
> More specific pages:
> http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=114628&highlight=eico+666
> http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=93956
> 
> [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Tube-Testers-Classic-Electronic-Test/dp/1886606145/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1286838374&sr=1-1]Amazon.com: Tube Testers and Classic Electronic Test Gear (9781886606142): Alan Douglas: Books[/ame]
> 
> I also have most of the more commonly available 666 data from here:
> 
> http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/eico/666/
> 
> Hope I didn't repeat too much of what Marty gave you.
> 
> Great score by the way.
> 
> Rick


----------



## RiverRatt

No, no, no, this is good stuff. I'd love to have the spreadsheet. I downloaded a 1970's replacement chart and emailed someone on another forum who had compiled one (might have been you?). I'm still not quite sure about adjusting the line voltage. Some of the stuff I've read make it sound like it's relative to each tube or that it may need to be adjusted for each tube type - I haven't really had a lot of time since I got it to sit down and go through all the settings. 

I'm not really interested in the plate current mod. If I can get my hands on a good, reliable data chart that's good enough for me. 

Can you give me any insight as to how to interpret the "Merit" test results? I've tested tubes that I know are near 100% and about the best reading I've gotten is 80 on any 12AX7. Also, what are the two pots on the inside of the tester for? I know they fine-tune the readings but do you know how they need to be set?


----------



## bones

If you PM me your e-mail address I will send the spreadsheet.

I always check the line adjust after I plug the tube in for test. Accounts for heater voltage drop.

I'm going to check my test data to see how it correlates with other testers I have.


----------



## BDowell

MartyStrat54 said:


> Your best bet is to replace the 5751 with a Raytheon Black Plate (high gain) in V2. This tube will smooth out the edginess and still allow the gain for the lead channel.
> 
> So run the Mullard in front of a Black Plate. If you can't find one, I sell them.



Marty,

Got really busy or I would have been on here sooner. The Tele ribbed plate is very nice tube, does more or less what I expected. The Raytheon black plate not so much. I have moved it all over the place and in V1 or V2 it just sounds kind of trebly for lack of better discription. Anyway a tech recommended biasing the power tubes at 76-78. Currently they are at 90 which I am told is Marshall spec. Do you think this would help remove some of the harshness in my lead channel?


----------



## bones

River,
I think those pots inside the tester are for Leakage Cal and Line Cal. Just from a quick read of the manual.


----------



## RiverRatt

bones said:


> River,
> I think those pots inside the tester are for Leakage Cal and Line Cal. Just from a quick read of the manual.



Okay. I plan to read up a little more on what exactly is going on in there. Is 100 considered "new" on the tester? Like I said, I can't get it to read over 80 on a 12AX7.


----------



## gunboatstudio

Hey guys,

What do you make of a listing like this?

Hundreds of vacuum tubes (RCA, TUNG-SOL, GE, Philips, many NOS)

100's of tubes for $40. Most of them should work, but some of them might not. Is this a fortune to be made by someone with a tester?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll sell you more tubes than that for $40 and I'll guarantee that it will have as many useful tubes in it as that lot. There might be one or two weak 12AX7's thrown in so it's not a total waste, but I'll guarantee you that you won't find any great deals in that lot. There are dozens of listings like that all the time on eBay. All they are doing is baiting you by pretending that they really don't know anything about tubes and they are giving you an incredible deal just because they can't be bothered to pick out the good tubes and sell them for $$$$$$$. Right. Sure.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got a Hammond organ in my sights - waiting to pull the trigger. If I do get it, Joe will probably hear my victory celebration all the way out there in sunny Washington state.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Got a Hammond organ in my sights - waiting to pull the trigger. If I do get it, Joe will probably hear my victory celebration all the way out there in sunny Washington state.



Great. I hope you snag it. I would like to know what brand of 12AX7's are in it.

Maybe you could wholesale me some.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BDowell said:


> Marty,
> 
> Got really busy or I would have been on here sooner. The Tele ribbed plate is very nice tube, does more or less what I expected. The Raytheon black plate not so much. I have moved it all over the place and in V1 or V2 it just sounds kind of trebly for lack of better discription. Anyway a tech recommended biasing the power tubes at 76-78. Currently they are at 90 which I am told is Marshall spec. Do you think this would help remove some of the harshness in my lead channel?



I never heard anyone say a Black Plate was trebley in the V1 slot. That tube is a smooth midrange tube. If the BP is sounding bright, then anything else would just make it brighter, except for a JJ or some other 12AX7's that are dark sounding.

If you don't like it, you can return it for another tube.

Biasing cooler will make a tonal change. You could always start that low and work up if it isn't what you want. I'm thinking around 82. The tech can set it at 78 and see how it affects the harshness. If it takes care of it, good. It could also be nasty sounding power tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great. I hope you snag it. I would like to know what brand of 12AX7's are in it.
> 
> Maybe you could wholesale me some.



You know it. Don't count your black plates before they're hatched, though. It could be loaded with 6SN7's.


----------



## solarburn

riverratt said:


> got a hammond organ in my sights - waiting to pull the trigger. If i do get it, joe will probably hear my victory celebration all the way out there in sunny washington state.



lol!


----------



## RiverRatt

I love October. Beck's Oktoberfest ROCKS!


----------



## MartyStrat54

October is all about the beer. And hot girls who serve beer like over in Germany. Hot!


----------



## thetragichero

RiverRatt said:


> I love October. Beck's Oktoberfest ROCKS!



still have a couple waiting for me at home


----------



## RiverRatt

Hot German girls or beer?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, it's been awhile since we played "identify this tube". So, what is this thing? I'm guessing Tung-Sol or Sylvania. It's old enough to be a plain 12AX7, not 12AX7A. Did we ever decide who used the octagon with a line over it like this one?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It looks like an old Tung-Sol to me. They made a square getter in the 50's. Unfortunately, there were several manufacturers that used the old octagon. Although your tube has the octagon that has the heavy outline. I think that by itself rules out RCA which tend to have a thin outline. 

Have you ever seen a square getter Sylvania? I only have experience with early 50's to 70's Sylvainia's and they are halo getters.


----------



## thetragichero

put three jj and one shuguang 12ax7 in the dsl so i can take it to the tech to get the electrolytics replaced without worrying about my good glass


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, some of those guys like to take those "old, worn out" tubes out and put in fresh new ones for you.


----------



## CKCinMass

I'm scoring the inards from an old Hammond Organ later today......There's at least 1 old 12AX7 in it. It has 2 6V6's in the power section. I'll post some pics later.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It looks like an old Tung-Sol to me. They made a square getter in the 50's. Unfortunately, there were several manufacturers that used the old octagon. Although your tube has the octagon that has the heavy outline. I think that by itself rules out RCA which tend to have a thin outline.
> 
> Have you ever seen a square getter Sylvania? I only have experience with early 50's to 70's Sylvainia's and they are halo getters.



I swear I replied to this last night and now it's gone. I did have an old Stromberg-Carlson branded Sylvania with black plates and a square getter that was soldered directly to one of the tabs on the plates. I think you tested it for me at around 15-17. I thought it sounded good, too, before I saw the test scores.


----------



## RiverRatt

CKCinMass said:


> I'm scoring the inards from an old Hammond Organ later today......There's at least 1 old 12AX7 in it. It has 2 6V6's in the power section. I'll post some pics later.



Do that. I'm supposed to be getting a Hammond from a dude who has nowhere to store it and doesn't want it anymore. He's hard to hook up with but he's come through on stuff like this before so maybe it'll happen. Are you going to gut it for a project or use the amp as-is? IIRC Charlie Goodsell started building his amps out of stock Hammond organ pulls. They can make really nice guitar amps.


----------



## CKCinMass

RiverRatt said:


> Do that. I'm supposed to be getting a Hammond from a dude who has nowhere to store it and doesn't want it anymore. He's hard to hook up with but he's come through on stuff like this before so maybe it'll happen. Are you going to gut it for a project or use the amp as-is? IIRC Charlie Goodsell started building his amps out of stock Hammond organ pulls. They can make really nice guitar amps.



I really haven't determined what I'm going to do with it as of yet. I have briefly read where these were used as guitar amps and will probably go that route. I didn't want to pass up the chance to grab the chassis out of it.

This thing has a couple of 12" speakers in it as well. Are they worth anything?


----------



## thetragichero

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, some of those guys like to take those "old, worn out" tubes out and put in fresh new ones for you.



haha i'd flip!
i informed him that i put the cheapest tubes i had in it so i wouldn't have to subject the good ones to unnecessary car rides
he said he'd call me before he did any actual work on it anyway, i had to INSIST that i want the caps changed even if the ones in there are still okay


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey guys. Came across this article over at ProGuitarShop's website. Thought I'd share...

Andy's Corner » Guitar News Archive » The Magic of the V1 Preamp Tube


> *The Magic of the V1 Preamp Tube*
> 
> *The Magic of V1*
> In the modern age of the quest for tone many guitar enthusiasts have taken to modifying their amplifiers, pedals, and guitars in order to attain the ultimate sound down to the tiniest nuance. The modern amplifier builder is starting to build with these thoughts in mind bringing forth a slew of new amplifiers on the market that are “mod friendly.” This way most guitarists, despite their level of technical and electronics experience, can swap parts or add basic circuits to their existing amps to improve tonal qualities and make that amp unique to the player. In this quest, there is one very simple amp mod that is sometimes overlooked by many guitarists, the V1 tube. V1 is the first preamp tube in an amplifier. With some simple know-how and experimentation, it can lead to a dramatic tonal variation of any tube guitar amp without the need for disassembly (most of the time) or soldering.
> *What is V1?*
> The first gain stage of a tube amplifier is responsible for a large amount of the overall tone shaping of an amplifier. It is the first point in which the pure guitar signal is amplified and determines the way every other aspects of the amp will respond to the guitar signal. The guitar signal is immediately amplified by V1 then sent to the tone circuit and on to any other circuitry before hitting the power amp tubes. It can usually be found closest to the input of the amp. Most modern tube amps use a 12AX7 for pre-amplification, however, you can swap it for a variety of preamp tubes without the need for re-biasing for amp . Just shut off the power and pull out the tube. This makes V1 the easiest mod you can do to really sculpt the tone of your favorite amplifier to suit your needs.
> 
> 
> 
> Preamp section showing V1, V2 and V3 tubes.
> 
> *Let’s talk gain*
> Before we talk about different tube types, let’s get a basic understanding of gain and tube distortion. Tube amps have retained their popularity with guitarists and bassist throughout the decades of amplified guitar despite the fact that they are “old” technology. Why? Without getting too technical it’s because they distort in a more musical fashion than transistors. When a transistor is pushed over its threshold the signal gets chopped off dramatically distorts in a “square wave” fashion. A tube on the other hand has more “headroom” and distorts along a smoother curve with less harsh artifacts. Even a tube amp played clean has a little of this clipping in the signal that comes through as layers of harmonics that fatten up the tone and give that essential sound to the guitar.
> 
> 
> 
> Sound waves of tube and transistor distortion.
> 
> So now let’s discuss gain factors and how they affect the overall tone of the amp. Using a tube with a lower gain value in V1 can have a big effect on how the power amp reacts to the signal. A 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100. A 12AT7 has a gain factor of 60, meaning it has 40% less gain than a 12AX7. Using a 12AT7 in place of a 12AX7 in V1 can make the amplifier quieter and give it more extended clean headroom before breakup. If you are playing humbuckers into a low wattage Fender amp, the 12AT7 is also a great way to achieve a cleaner tone overall. Another commonly overlooked affect of this procedure is that a lower gain V1 will cause the power tubes to work harder. This creates more power amp distortion as opposed to preamp distortion.
> So what does that mean? Preamp tube distortion, although “hotter”, is usually fizzy, sometimes thin, and doesn’t respond as well to varying degrees of attack since the sound is much more compressed. Power tube distortion is where the dynamics and “natural” sounding overdrive characteristics come from. You will also notice a fatter thump even though the gain might not sound as intense. If this is the sound you’re going for, try a lower gain preamp tube for less preamp distortion and make that power amp work! Along with a different type of dirt, your speakers will also react and push more air. When all the elements; preamp, power amp and speakers are working together, that’s when the magic of tube amps comes out. In fact, Stevie Ray Vaughan used a 5751 in V1 (30% less gain than a 12AX7) to alter the characteristics of his amp and suit the tone he wanted. Keep in mind, *this trick does not work with high gain amplifiers that rely on preamp distortion cascading through many tubes to produce massive amounts of thick distortion.* This is also dependent on what your ears hear and various playing styles. Different people will hear different sounds.
> 
> 
> 
> Stevie Ray Vaughan used 5751 preamp tubes to help achieve his signature tone.
> 
> *Here is a list of commonly swapped tubes with their gain factors listed in parentheses:*
> 
> 
> 12AX7 (100)
> 5751 (70)
> 12AT7 (60)
> 12AY7 (45)
> 12AV7 (41)
> 12AU7 (19)
> *This list was compiled from www.thetubestore.com.*
> Besides the gain factor, different manufacturer’s tubes of the same type will have different tonal qualities. Some will be brighter and crisper while some are warmer and more rounded. Some will be noisier and distort easily while some will be quieter and have more headroom. A fun thing to do on a rainy weekend is to pull out 3 or 4 12AX7’s from different manufacturers, and a couple of 5751’s and 12AT7’s. Mic up your favorite amp and kick on the 4 track (or computer based recording system of your choice), play a tune and record 30 or so seconds of it. Then switch V1, switch tracks, and do it again. After you’ve gone through all the tubes in this manner, take a break for a half hour and let your ears rest. When you come back, a fresh listen to each track individually under headphones or studio monitors will reveal a true difference in tone. Even to a relatively untrained ear.
> So gather a small collection of preamp tubes to try and go for it. Remember though, just because Stevie used a 5751 or awesome guitarist #1 down the street uses a so-and-so NOS $300 preamp tube, doesn’t mean it is right for you. Use your ears and those of the musicians around (i.e. Bandmates) to help you determine what combination is right for your sound. The process can be long but it’s a whole lot of fun listening to the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) differences that the magical V1 tube swap can create. Enjoy!
> *A quick disclaimer from our friendly amp tech, please take the time to read it. *
> _Not all tubes are interchangeable. The preamp tubes listed here all can be interchanged with each other but your amp was designed with a certain tube in mind for V1. Changing this can alter tone but also alter the way the amp’s electronics handle things. It is generally a better idea to go down in gain factor rather than up. If you have ANY doubts or questions, please consult a qualified technician or the manufacturer of your amplifier BEFORE swapping tubes. Swapping tubes will usually void any manufacturer’s warranty as well so do so at your own risk. Subject matter in this article relates to preamp tube V1 only and does NOT relate to power tubes. Always refer power tube maintenance or replacement to a qualified technician as the voltages contained inside your amp are deadly._
> _See you next time in the corner,
> *Andy*_
> 
> 
> *3 Responses to “The Magic of the V1 Preamp Tube”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kwaping says:
> October 14, 2010 at 11:18 am
> Thanks for the great article! However, in doing some research I found this on groovetubes.com:
> “The 12AT7s make-up is very similar to the 12AX7 and can be substituted for a 12AX7 in a pinch, although it won’t sound very good.”
> What do you think of that?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nick says:
> October 14, 2010 at 12:33 pm
> I found just that with my Tiny Terror, though I settled on swapping out V2 with an au7. It brought down the gain and upped the headroom just enough without losing some of the power and thump I liked coming out of V1.
> Does this make the power tubes work as hard?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David says:
> October 14, 2010 at 12:59 pm
> My question is: what happens when you switch out tubes at the V2 and V3 positions? Similar effect?



Long and short... In my humble opinion... Have Marty get ya started in the right direction, and then let yer ears be your guide.


----------



## BDowell

MartyStrat54 said:


> I never heard anyone say a Black Plate was trebley in the V1 slot. That tube is a smooth midrange tube. If the BP is sounding bright, then anything else would just make it brighter, except for a JJ or some other 12AX7's that are dark sounding.
> 
> If you don't like it, you can return it for another tube.
> 
> Biasing cooler will make a tonal change. You could always start that low and work up if it isn't what you want. I'm thinking around 82. The tech can set it at 78 and see how it affects the harshness. If it takes care of it, good. It could also be nasty sounding power tubes.



Well I ended up with the Tele in V1, a Tung-Sol reissue in V2 and it's the best it's sounded. The Black Plate had a "thin/bright characteristic" maybe is a better way of saying it. The tube tests fine. I am trying it in V3.


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## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, it's been awhile since we played "identify this tube". So, what is this thing? I'm guessing Tung-Sol or Sylvania. It's old enough to be a plain 12AX7, not 12AX7A. Did we ever decide who used the octagon with a line over it like this one?



Looks a lot like my Zenith-branded Tung-Sol.


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## RiverRatt

CKCinMass said:


> I really haven't determined what I'm going to do with it as of yet. I have briefly read where these were used as guitar amps and will probably go that route. I didn't want to pass up the chance to grab the chassis out of it.
> 
> This thing has a couple of 12" speakers in it as well. Are they worth anything?



Waitaminute - are you getting a whole organ or just the chassis? If you get the entire organ, this thing should have at least 60 or so tubes in the tone generating circuits. Sometimes they are 6SN7's, sometimes they are 12AU7's, but if it's a late 1950's to early 1960's, they are most likely 12AX7's and quite possibly all Raytheon black plates. That could be a gold mine, CKC.


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## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Looks a lot like my Zenith-branded Tung-Sol.



Yeah, Tung-Sol was what I was thinking, too. I think I let my only Tung-Sol go in a recent amp sale and didn't realize it, so I can't check them against each other. Also lost a good Raytheon bp in that deal. Next time I'll be more careful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOSH-The info you posted was good. It beats the hell out of that chick who knew nothing.



> Mic up your favorite amp and kick on the 4 track (or computer based recording system of your choice), play a tune and record 30 or so seconds of it. Then switch V1, switch tracks, and do it again. After you’ve gone through all the tubes in this manner, take a break for a half hour and let your ears rest. When you come back, a fresh listen to each track individually under headphones or studio monitors will reveal a true difference in tone. Even to a relatively untrained ear.



Don't let wkcchampion see this. It goes against everything he has ranted about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, Tung-Sol was what I was thinking, too. I think I let my only Tung-Sol go in a recent amp sale and didn't realize it, so I can't check them against each other. Also lost a good Raytheon bp in that deal. Next time I'll be more careful.



Wow Alan, that's too bad. I'll bet the new owner loves the way it sounds.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Don't let wkcchampion see this. It goes against everything he has ranted about.



Just because that asshat can't record well enough to hear the difference in tubes doesn't mean that the rest of us are handicapped in a similar manner. His sound is so processed that you can't even tell what kind of pickups he's using, much less tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Just because that asshat can't record well enough to hear the difference in tubes doesn't mean that the rest of us are handicapped in a similar manner. His sound is so processed that you can't even tell what kind of pickups he's using, much less tubes.


----------



## thetragichero

maybe it's me, but my signal chain is fairly simple...
speaker->mic->mic preamp->SLIGHT compression (to the point where it's barely noticeable)->recorder
actually, that's what i do for everything except kick drum, which goes through a parametric eq after the compression


----------



## CKCinMass

RiverRatt said:


> Waitaminute - are you getting a whole organ or just the chassis? If you get the entire organ, this thing should have at least 60 or so tubes in the tone generating circuits. Sometimes they are 6SN7's, sometimes they are 12AU7's, but if it's a late 1950's to early 1960's, they are most likely 12AX7's and quite possibly all Raytheon black plates. That could be a gold mine, CKC.



This thing is (was) a Hammond M143 (late '60s I believe). I got the amp chassis, reverb tank and unit and the speakers today. I looked (as best I could) throughout the rest of the thing to see if there were any hidden tubes and didn't see anything.

I got everything for $5.00. It only had 1 12AX7 Raytheon Made in Taiwan in it. I figured I couldn't go wrong......


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another "Made in Taiwan" Raytheon. I bought one on EBAY just to see if it really was made in Taiwan. It was.


----------



## CKCinMass

MartyStrat54 said:


> Another "Made in Taiwan" Raytheon. I bought one on EBAY just to see if it really was made in Taiwan. It was.



Is it worth anything?

I also came across a square getter Sylvania made in USA....what are your thoughts on that one?


----------



## MartyStrat54

CKCinMass said:


> Is it worth anything?
> 
> I also came across a square getter Sylvania made in USA....what are your thoughts on that one?



I think I paid twelve bucks for mine including shipping. So no, it's not a real valuable tube. I never even tried the one I got. I bought it simply because I had never seen one.

What year do you think that Sylvania was made in? Ratt said I tested one for him. Now I'm thinking I bid on a large lot of bad ones that I returned. I can't remember if they were D or [] getters. They were black plates.

If the Sylvania is good, it makes a great utility tube for V3 or a V4 PI tube. This is assuming you have four preamp tubes. If I had to choose between running a Sylvania in V1 and current production, I'd take the Sylvania.


----------



## Moose Lewis

I'm looking for ecc83 preamp tubes for the Haze 40. Most likely I'll have to go with CP... seems like the tung-sols are mentioned a lot.

I have seen some NOS Ei tubes that looked affordable; and in some soundbites one user posted, they had a good sound. I realize it's all a combination... but I tend to like tight bottom & as much natural overdrive as I can get without brittle highs. Is it necessary to used matched sets in the Haze (3 pre tubes)?

Also, looking at some Telefunken tubes - what is the difference between flat plates and ribbed plates?

Lastly - I assume it is necessary to re-bias when replacing power tubes; but is it needed when replacing pre tubes as well?

Any recommendations would be appreciated. 
Cheers!


----------



## vanled69

Hey Moose! No need to re-bias the pre-amp tubes, don't believe you can anyway. Just pop them in an see how they sound. The article from Andy's corner says to power down change then power up. I just put it on standby, pull a pre - replace - then standby off. I read others had done this so I have too. Maybe Marty can comment on this to confirm.


----------



## vanled69

Probably discussed prior, but what other items could people look for at flea markets, yard sales etc in addition to Hammond organs where we could find old pre-amp tubes in them? 

I found a BZ - something something one time in a boiler control unit! Thought it looked like a 12ax7 but couldn't bring myself to try it out of fear of messing something up. I now understand it could have been used, probably would not have sounded real good, but I could have tried it instead of throwing it away! 

Just makes me wonder where else we could look for 12ax7s.


----------



## Moose Lewis

vanled69 said:


> Hey Moose! No need to re-bias the pre-amp tubes, don't believe you can anyway.



See? As old as I am, and as long as I've been playing - I did _not_ know that. That certainly makes playing around with preamp tubes a lot more feasible!  ...aaaand makes me stop and think about how many times I popped by to see my old tech for a quick re-bias. 

Thanks vanled69. Interesting user name, btw.


----------



## RiverRatt

Moose Lewis said:


> I'm looking for ecc83 preamp tubes for the Haze 40. Most likely I'll have to go with CP... seems like the tung-sols are mentioned a lot.



I like the Tung-Sol tubes better than any other CP I've tried so far.



Moose Lewis said:


> I have seen some NOS Ei tubes that looked affordable; and in some soundbites one user posted, they had a good sound. I realize it's all a combination... but I tend to like tight bottom & as much natural overdrive as I can get without brittle highs. Is it necessary to used matched sets in the Haze (3 pre tubes)?



The older Ei tubes are really nice, like from the early '70's on back. The later production is good, too. They are reminiscent of a Telefunken smooth plate, probably due to the fact that they used the same machinery and parts as Telefunken. 



Moose Lewis said:


> Also, looking at some Telefunken tubes - what is the difference between flat plates and ribbed plates?



To me, the flat-plate is THE Telefunken tube. Sweet highs, very balanced mids and lows, incredible harmonic content. I think I started a little outbreak of Telefunken fever when I paired one up with a Raytheon black plate in V2. That's still one of my favorite tube combinations. The ribbed plate IMO was made after Philips took over. Philips companies (Mullard, Amperex, Miniwatt, Ei, and so on) used ribbed plates almost exclusively. I don't think the ribbed plate Tele's sound much like the smooth plate tubes, but they are an excellent tone tube. To me, they share more in common with a Mullard than a Tele.

Advice? I'm not familiar with the Haze 40's preamp tube compliment (i.e. which tube does what), but if it's the same as the modern Marshalls with 4 pre's like the DSL, here's what I'd suggest. You really need to try at least a couple of NOS before you decide against them. Matsushita and Ei will get you in the Mullard and Tele ballpark without spending a fortune. Check with Marty and see if he has those in-stock. You NEED a Raytheon black plate in V2 as well. You can mix in a couple of CP Tung-Sols or maybe a cheap Sylvania in V3 and V4.

If anyone knows for sure what the preamp setup is in the Haze 40, please chime in. It's knowledge I'd like to have.


----------



## Moose Lewis

In the spec sheet, it calls for 3xECC83 tubes in the preamp and 2xEL34 in the main power section. That is supposedly it.

Looking at the schematics, I'm confused. What I see listed are: V1A & V1B, V2A & V2B - all ECC83-A tubes. V3A & V3B are listed in the Power Amp section of the schematics, along with the EL43's.

So I am making a blind assumption that the A/B of each of these refer to use of one tube, making V1 & V2 preamp tubes and V3 a part of the main power amp (?).

_Yes - some clarity would be nice_. I'm getting ready to have the CATS-00163 warranty work done - then MKB's treble cap mod will follow along with pulling the amp from the combo to mount in a separate box. So the time to roll some tubes is coming soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 12AX7 has two gain circuits called A and B. The gain factor is approximately 100mu. I don't know if the Haze 40 is using both V1 and V2 as pure gain tubes, or if part of one goes to the tone stack.

V3 is shown with the power section, because it is the phase inverter tube and it is part of the power section. I prefer a high gain, lopsided PI tube in my amp. Don't fall for the old saying that you need a balanced tube in the PI. It's just not true.


----------



## thetragichero

i replied saying basically what marty said but it didn't show up
probably because i referred to the regulars on this thread as 'gents'


----------



## Moose Lewis

MartyStrat54 said:


> I prefer a high gain, lopsided PI tube in my amp. Don't fall for the old saying that you need a balanced tube in the PI.



How do I determine what is a _high gain_ tube?



thetragichero said:


> i referred to the regulars on this thread as 'gents'



_Whoa!_ No need for profanity and name calling!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you pay extra, you can get a high gain current production tube. If you have an ANOS tube, all you can do is test the tube and extrapolate what the tube is; such as mild, moderate or hot. On my tester, tubes that are 29-29 to 31-31 are high gain "hot" tubes.


----------



## JCarno

Hello, What do you guys make of this hodge podge of tubes.

The Ei came stock in the JCM 601. It says Yugoslavia on it.

The second from left says Mesa and it came out of my Carvin X100B. I'm not sure if it is stock because the guy I bought the amp from wasn't the original owner and he had not changed the tubes and didn't know if the original owner had.

The JJ is a replacement from when I had the 1484 serviced and the last one is an original stock that came in the 1484. It says Silvertone on it. 

I just thought I'd share these and maybe get a little insight on which may be best used in which amp. I've done a little experimenting but at low volume and not very extensive. I get laid off in the winter so I'll have lots of time to play around and do some testing.

I own a Tascam 4 track recorder so I think I'll do some recording too.


----------



## RiverRatt

The picture is a little blurry but you have a couple of good ones. The Ei is obviously what it says it is. The second tube looks Russian. The JJ is Chinese, and the 4th one is also a Philips tube, but I don't think it's an Ei. All I can do is guess on it, and I'd say Matsushita halo getter, but it's impossible to say for sure without a better photo. 1 and 4 would make a good V1 tube in a Marshall amp.

How do you like the 1484? It's the same amp as that Harmony 535 head I posted here and in another thread recently. It's a pretty nice amp and a bit of a sleeper in the vintage market. Good Fender-style 6L6 tones in that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Number two has the classic Chinese getter plate at the top above the top mica. I'm almost sure it is a Shuguang. Mesa preamp tubes are mostly Chinese.

The main thing about tubes is knowing their health. Just because you have an Ei, it doesn't matter if the tube is weak. You want a healthy tube in V1. If possible, get all of these tubes tested. It does no good to stick poor, weak tubes in an amp.


----------



## DeLorean

Could anyone recommend a good combination of tubes (pre and power) for a DSL50?

I play a mix of classic 70s rock and a lot of 80s rock, I'm just trying to stock up on tubes for when my new amp arrives  

I know it's probably like asking how long is a piece of string, but figured it was worth a shot in case you can steer me in a rough direction for when I go shopping on Ebay.


----------



## thetragichero

not sure on power tubes, but the general consensus here is that telefunken in V1, high gain raytheon black plate in V2, and any solid tube in V3 and V4 (preferably a high gain, lopsided tube in V4)


----------



## DeLorean

Ok cool, so almost the same as I have in my DSL401!  Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

DeLorean said:


> Ok cool, so almost the same as I have in my DSL401!  Thanks!



You can't go wrong with a Philips tube in V1 as long as it is a high gain. Philips tubes include Amperex, BEL, Electrohome, Mini Watt, Mullard, Telefunken and many others. These are all solid tubes for V1. The classic match is a Raytheon Black Plate in V2, although other tubes can be used to alter the overall tone. The Raytheon tends to tame the brightness of a Marshall amp and make it more pleasing.

V3 can be any solid USA, Japanese or European tube.

V4 is determined by the user's taste. I prefer a lopsided high gain tube in my amps.


----------



## MM54

In the ML100, I have a hot Tele from Marty in V1 and a Mullard I found (literally) that tests around 100% on my tester in V2. It's glorious.


----------



## JCarno

RiverRatt said:


> The picture is a little blurry but you have a couple of good ones. The Ei is obviously what it says it is. The second tube looks Russian. The JJ is Chinese, and the 4th one is also a Philips tube, but I don't think it's an Ei. All I can do is guess on it, and I'd say Matsushita halo getter, but it's impossible to say for sure without a better photo. 1 and 4 would make a good V1 tube in a Marshall amp.
> 
> How do you like the 1484? It's the same amp as that Harmony 535 head I posted here and in another thread recently. It's a pretty nice amp and a bit of a sleeper in the vintage market. Good Fender-style 6L6 tones in that one.



In all honesty, I haven't had a chance to open up the 1484 since I got it back from being serviced, so I don't really know it's potential. I'm only able to play it very low in my apt. At low volumes it is very clear and crisp. Can't wait to be able to jump the 2 channels hooked up to the Avatar with the Hellatones and crank it up. I've hooked it up to the TS9 but again, at low volumes, it just sounds kinda flubby. I'm sure once I get to crank up the volume a little she'll come to life.

I have 4 each of the Mesas and Eis and 2 of the Silvertones. The Silvertones are 46 years old. The Amp tech said they tested fine. Eventually I'll get around to doing some extensive testing to see whats what.

Thanks everyone for the replies. Keep Rockin!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, how's this for a lopsided PI tube for ya? I was digging through my old tubes yesterday looking for a couple for someone and ran across an Ei you tested about a year ago that was 29-40! I figured I'd give it a shot and I think it may have found a home in the DSL. It sounds pretty sweet. I've got one of my Matsushita D getters in V1, my old standard Raytheon BP in V2, that Sylvania you sold me ages ago in V3 and the aforementioned Ei in V4. Good stuff. I need to start rolling some of these new tubes through the Marshall. It hasn't gotten enough attention lately.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, at first you want to say, "Wow man, that's too lopsided." But then you have to look at it and it might even be better to have that big of a swing. I mean after all, it's not as wild as a 12DW7 and those are being used in the PI slot all of the time. I'm running those Mullard/RCA's that I got that were NIB. Most of them were not good for V1 or V2, but they were lopsided for the PI. Most of the one's I am running are like 29-37 and I love them.


----------



## thetragichero

looking up 12dw7 tubes on ebay......
i'll have three completely different amps to test them in within the next couple of weeks, so hopefully i like what they do


----------



## MartyStrat54

thetragichero said:


> looking up 12dw7 tubes on ebay......
> i'll have three completely different amps to test them in within the next couple of weeks, so hopefully i like what they do



Well prepare yourself. It will make a sonic difference...whether you like it or not. 

The 12DW7 is a 12AX7 on one triode and a 12AU7 on the other triode. This makes for an extremely lopsided PI tube (100/17). Favored mainly by harp players.

I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say about them. We all might be switching to them.


----------



## DeLorean

MartyStrat54 said:


> You can't go wrong with a Philips tube in V1 as long as it is a high gain. Philips tubes include Amperex, BEL, Electrohome, Mini Watt, Mullard, Telefunken and many others. These are all solid tubes for V1. The classic match is a Raytheon Black Plate in V2, although other tubes can be used to alter the overall tone. The Raytheon tends to tame the brightness of a Marshall amp and make it more pleasing.
> 
> V3 can be any solid USA, Japanese or European tube.
> 
> V4 is determined by the user's taste. I prefer a lopsided high gain tube in my amps.




Thanks Marty - Are the Mullard and Tung-Sol Reissues worthwhile, or is it better to go for the NOS ones? Was thinking of one for V3.

I'm not certain what a lopsided tube is - any recommendations?


----------



## DeLorean

Could I ask for an honest opinion on these tube sets (i.e overpriced, shitty quality valves etc)? 

It's a local(ish) company to me but I've not managed to find much useful info on these particular tubes. 

Watford Valves :: Product - Marshall 50 watt Classic Stan Gain 4 valve pre Svet EL34 full upgrade kit

Watford Valves :: Product - Marshall 50 watt Classic High gain 4 valve pre Svet EL34 CRYO full upgrade kit


----------



## esskell

I bought a set of E-H preamp (12ax7) and power tubes (el34) to replace the stock tubes in my recently purchased (but used) JCM 2000 DSL 100 head. The amp was made in 2006, and I got it on eBay. Since I don't know what kind of knocks this thing has gotten over the past few years and in shipping, I figured I'd try it out.

The power tubes sounded great and seemed to make the volume adjustment smoother and sounded a lot louder to me, but as I expected they didn't REALLY change the sound a whole lot.

When I took out the old preamp tubes, I noticed the one in V4 was actually a MESA 12ax7-a. 

The E-H preamp tubes made a HUGE difference, but not for the better. I found the EH preamp tubes sucked the life out of the amp, and although I still got some bass-y clean tones, when I hit the high-gain channel, the amp lost all it's punch and all the clarity was gone. Totally sucked.

Anyway, I put the Mesa tube in the V1 spot and now it kicks ass, so go figure. I might buy some more tubes and test more preamp combinations. If anybody has any thoughts on this I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

SK


----------



## RiverRatt

DeLorean said:


> Could I ask for an honest opinion on these tube sets (i.e overpriced, shitty quality valves etc)?
> 
> It's a local(ish) company to me but I've not managed to find much useful info on these particular tubes.
> 
> Watford Valves :: Product - Marshall 50 watt Classic Stan Gain 4 valve pre Svet EL34 full upgrade kit
> 
> Watford Valves :: Product - Marshall 50 watt Classic High gain 4 valve pre Svet EL34 CRYO full upgrade kit



You can get the same valves cheaper, and they aren't anything special. Don't buy into the cryo treatment thing, either. It's just marketing hype.


----------



## RiverRatt

esskell said:


> If anybody has any thoughts on this I'd appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> SK



I preach NOS for a reason, and it ain't because I'm a dealer (I'm not BTW). Pick up a couple of affordable RCA's or G.E.s, or if you can afford it, go the Mullard/Raytheon route. Either way you'll get a much better tone. 

I'm curious to know what the Mesa tube is. Do you have any photos?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I preach NOS for a reason, and it ain't because I'm a dealer (I'm not BTW). Pick up a couple of affordable RCA's or G.E.s, or if you can afford it, go the Mullard/Raytheon route. Either way you'll get a much better tone.
> 
> I'm curious to know what the Mesa tube is. Do you have any photos?



Probably Chinese.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Agreed. I recommend the EH tube for utility slots such as V3 and V4 on a DSL/TSL. They are cheap and work well in this role. I wouldn't consider them as a V1 or V2 tube. 

As Ratt said, you can get a couple of American 12AX7's for about $25. Of course, you'll want to buy from someone who lists the tests results. Most of the time I can help you out with this if you send me a PM. You want to get a nice set of stout tubes if possible for V1 and V2, although I would take medium gain USA tubes over high gain current production any day.

The main thing is that USA and European tubes are just quieter. That's what makes them better. That and the harder factory vacuum pulled on the tube. Oh did I also mention the accuracy of the parts used to build the tube?

A lot of guys like the RCA's. I like the 1955 to 1962 RCA's myself. These are usually a $15 to $20 dollar tube. Sylvania's and GE's can be cheap as well.

All it takes is a willingness to buy the tubes on EBAY. Go with a reputable seller with good feedback score. Look for test results and reasonable shipping rates. Most important of all, does the seller allow the tubes to be returned?

If you buy untested tubes, the only tool you have is your ears. If you buy several tubes, roll them in V1 and V2 and see what sounds the best.


----------



## DeLorean

Just a quick note to say thanks to all of you guys for contributing so much to this thread. For beginners like myself who are fairly green to tube rolling, it's an invaluable resource!


----------



## esskell

Thanks guys. Here's a page selling the Mesa tube I mentioned, click the image to enlarge. Nothing on it indicating where it was made. I'll look into some other makes and try new sounds and see how it goes.

Buy Mesa Boogie 12AX7-A Preamp Tube at Music Power


----------



## MM54

HEY MARTY!

Question. Do you happen to have any 5751's that are matched closely to work nicely in a hi-fi setup? I don't like Tube Depot's prices on NOS, and the only CP one is a Sovtek, that in the description says it isn't the same as a 5751. Yuck. I'm trying to get a price list together and would like to know if you have any


----------



## MartyStrat54

MATT-No I don't. I just don't see a need for 5751's. If I can get some for a good price I will, but I sold off what I had.

Did you try Brent Jesse or KCA?


----------



## MM54

Who?


Would a low-noise tested 12AX7 essentially work the same in the circuit as the 5751? I know the 5751 replaces a 12AX7 so it only makes sense it would work the other way around.


----------



## thetragichero

from what i've read, it's usually okay to go from higher gain tube to a lower gain tube
going the other way may work, but it might introduce too much gain into the circuit and that could have undesirable effects


----------



## JCarno

Not sure if this belongs here but what are 6FQ7 or 6CG7 tubes? These are in the 1484 and are on each side of the 12ax7's. They are a little taller and thinner than the 12ax7's but the pins are identical. Any input appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JCarno said:


> Not sure if this belongs here but what are 6FQ7 or 6CG7 tubes? These are in the 1484 and are on each side of the 12ax7's. They are a little taller and thinner than the 12ax7's but the pins are identical. Any input appreciated. Thanks.



These are both medium gain twin triode tubes with the gain factor of a 12AU7.


----------



## JCarno

Is it true that V1 is always the closest tube to the Power Amp tubes? Also, would it be safe to put one of those in my Marshall for shits and grins?


----------



## thetragichero

i don't know if the pinouts are the same, but i can tell you that much drop in gain would neuter the marshall growl
basically chop off your amp's balls


----------



## thetragichero

i'm just guessing here, but those tubes are probably for tremolo/reverb circuit recovery?


----------



## solarburn

JCarno said:


> Is it true that V1 is always the closest tube to the Power Amp tubes? Also, would it be safe to put one of those in my Marshall for shits and grins?



Reverse that. V1 is usually the farthest preamp tube from the power tubes.


----------



## JCarno

Ok, thanks for the replies.


----------



## RiverRatt

JCarno said:


> Is it true that V1 is always the closest tube to the Power Amp tubes? Also, would it be safe to put one of those in my Marshall for shits and grins?



You might get shits, but no grins. They are a different pinout.


----------



## solarburn

esskell said:


> Thanks guys. Here's a page selling the Mesa tube I mentioned, click the image to enlarge. Nothing on it indicating where it was made. I'll look into some other makes and try new sounds and see how it goes.
> 
> Buy Mesa Boogie 12AX7-A Preamp Tube at Music Power



Chinese. Shuguang.


----------



## ken361

just bought this pretty sure its a Matsushita for 15.00 test strong also, dam I bought one last week for 33.00 least I have some good v1 tubes:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150507375607
link is not showing it, oh well


----------



## Thunder N Lightning

Joe, Alan, Cody and Matt. Stopped by to say hello. My job went back to full hours and I have been busy. Not a lot of down time like a month or so ago. Hope to run into you soon.


----------



## solarburn

Will keep our eyes out for you man! Good to see you back here. Drop in when you can. That's how I do it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll catch up with you soon enough.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> just bought this pretty sure its a Matsushita for 15.00 test strong also, dam I bought one last week for 33.00 least I have some good v1 tubes:
> SINGLE MULLARD 12AX7A ECC83 TUBE JAPAN - eBay (item 150507375607 end time Oct-22-10 10:09:11 PDT)
> link is not showing it, oh well



Yep, that's what it is. How do you like them?


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome back, TnL


----------



## MM54

Hey thunder, it's been a while indeed!


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Yep, that's what it is. How do you like them?



should be here any day


----------



## thetragichero

12dw7 is on its way


----------



## black70bird

I was looking at the tube lineup in my Marshall DSL 50 and noted that the V1 position tube has a metal cover with a spring in it that contacts the tube, what is this for?

Also all the preamp tubes are Marshall ECC83 with Valve00055, except the V1 tube has Valve 00064. What is the diffence?

My shipment from Tube Depot did not make it yesterday, heavy sigh! 

I read a thread in the Workbench about a loud hum from a DSL that was traced to the OT de-laminating. My amp has a fairly noticeable hum but the hum does not seem to emanate from either of the transformers and there is a vibration when you put your hand on it, neither my Peavey Valveking or my Fender Blues Deluxe RI have anything like this. Is it just a Marshall quirk or should I have it looked at? It does not come through the speakers.

Thanx
Brian


----------



## thetragichero

the metal cover shields the tube from noise/heat from the transformer


----------



## RiverRatt

Blackbird, get a shot of those pre's and we'll identify them for you. If they were made by Ei, they are good tubes!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, this one is for you. I got into that Knight CB and found a Mullard ECC81/12AT7 in it, plus a nice Mullard EL84. I also found a Telefunken ECC81 that has a diamond base but is clearly RFT construction. This is the first RFT/Tele I've run across. I didn't know that RFT tubes could have a diamond bottom! Have you ever run across this?


----------



## javier pintos

hi guys!!

hey i just went out to get some strings and came back home with a silverface super reverb, it does no work, but it seems that all it could need is some cleaning, a set of 4x10, rectifier and power tubes, however the preamp tube all work (at least on my avt)

Marty can you help me out identify the pre tubes to see if i got something worth out here, they seem to have been there for a long time, don´t know if since the 80´s, but they def not look recent, the amp costed about 35 us and i´m thinking into getting into operation , i looked into it and it has some seal from the original (i think) sellonmg shop that says it was sold round june 1980





Tube 1 







Tube2






tube 2





tube 3





tube 3








tube 4






tube 4






tube 5




tube 6






tube 6


here´s the guts of the amp


----------



## RiverRatt

OH WOW. That's a good score. I think I can help you with the tubes but the pictures seem to be a little scrambled. Tube #1 is a Tungsram, tube #2 is a genuine G.E. tube, #3 is a Sylvania 12AT7 (I think), #4 is an RFT, #5 is a Tungsram, #6 is an RFT. The Tungsrams and RFT's are pretty high-dollar tubes if they test high. Some people really dig G.E. tubes - IMO they are better in a Fender than a Marshall but some of the older ones are nice. Keep the Sylvania for when you get that amp going again!!!

Definitely restore that beauty and do the blackface mods. You've got a potentially *sweet* amp sitting there!


----------



## javier pintos

mmmm high dollar?, how high a dollar $$$$dollars vs sweet amp mmmmmm

anyway anyone know were can i get the black face mods?, what difference does it make doing dose mods?

i saw that the speakers are alnico structures but have been reconned, anyone know a good place to have them reconned properly?, that way i get to keep the alnico mojo or maube i´ll just get the jensen ceramic ones don´t know yet

Thanks RR i´ll post the other amp pics on my album, it even came with the front grille orignal, but it was made of particle board and it was literally converting into dust as i touched to had to get rid of it, but kept the cloth and the logo


----------



## TheLoudness!!

Do preamp tubes really go bad?? If they do, what are some signs of it and what happens??


----------



## RiverRatt

javier pintos said:


> mmmm high dollar?, how high a dollar $$$$dollars vs sweet amp mmmmmm
> 
> anyway anyone know were can i get the black face mods?, what difference does it make doing dose mods?
> 
> i saw that the speakers are alnico structures but have been reconned, anyone know a good place to have them reconned properly?, that way i get to keep the alnico mojo or maube i´ll just get the jensen ceramic ones don´t know yet
> 
> Thanks RR i´ll post the other amp pics on my album, it even came with the front grille orignal, but it was made of particle board and it was literally converting into dust as i touched to had to get rid of it, but kept the cloth and the logo



Check out tubemonger.com for an idea as to retail NOS prices. They usually have Tungsram and RFT tubes in stock.

Also, look into just doing a cap job and get the speakers fixed up before you do any mods - you may like it just fine as-is. It should be a tone monster when it's running right.

Google the blackface mods. There should be tons of stuff out there.


----------



## RiverRatt

TheLoudness!! said:


> Do preamp tubes really go bad?? If they do, what are some signs of it and what happens??



YES! They usually don't take out amp components when they go the way power tubes can.

You might notice a drop in volume, loss of high frequencies, white noise, popping or hissing, squealing, or sometimes no sound at all.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great job Alan. I would say that the RFT's and Tungsram are from 70's stock, or at least the Ultron and ProComm tubes are.

Orange County Speakers can either recone your speakers back to spec, or they will do a trade plus cash for a set of speakers they have in stock.

Official Speaker Repair Site - Orange County Speaker Repair and Sales - SpeakerRepair.com - Home of GLS Audio


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Great job Alan. I would say that the RFT's and Tungsram are from 70's stock, or at least the Ultron and ProComm tubes are.



THanks! Did you see my post above that about the RFT 12AT7 with the Tele label and diamond bottom? I can't get a clear pic of the diamond, but it's there. That's the first RFT Tele I've ever seen in person.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is something that was posted a week ago on one of my old threads.



TECHNICAL SORCERY said:


> Hi Folks...
> 
> Getting in a bit late on this, but have been testing tubes steadily for the 4 months and found massive quantities of defective tubes on the market.
> 
> Been searching for reports from other techs & users to see if anyone else is getting the same results.
> 
> Virtually ALL SovTek Preamp & Output tubes that I've tested recently (Branded as SovTek, ElectroHarmonix, Ruby Tubes, Fender, TungSol, and Groove Tubes) are DEFECTIVE right out of the box!
> 
> Virtually all of their preamp tubes that I've tested are often so weak they barely push my tube tester's needle into the "Good" Range... and those that do, when subjected to a "Life Test" will often drop to "0".
> 
> (In comparisson, I've tested dozens of used late-60's to mid-80's GE, RCA, Amperex, and others that I'd pulled out of amps years ago for noise/microphonics, as well as some mid-90's Groove Tubes easily that will pass the "Life Test" down to 7-8v!)
> 
> I've found that some of their output tubes have some "Weak Output" issues (maybe 30% or so), but virtually all that I've tested have had Excessive "Grid Leakage".
> 
> Normally an output tube should show NO Grid Leakage... most all that I've tested have shown at least 1/4-1/2 scale at 6v... and 3/4 to full-scale at 7v. (Again, most late 60's to mid-80's used & NOS output tubes I've tested will show NO - or only very minimal) grid leakage even at 7-8v, and many at even 10v.)
> 
> (A brand new quartet of Groove Tube/Sovtek GT-EL84-R's tested this week all PEGGED the needle on the leakage test at 6v - didn't even need to step up to 7v!)
> 
> I've had a 50-50 success rate with the Slovakian tubes, and 70-30 success rate with the Chinese tubes on the above tests.
> 
> Some of the Slovakian & Chinese preamp & output tubes will pass the "Life Test" at the 12v or 6v but start to drop out, or fail completely when dropped to the 10v or 5v ranges. (Compared to mid-90s or earlier tubes that will hold steady down to 3v or 8v
> 
> Some of their outputs will pass the "Leakage Test" at 6v, but increase mildly to dramaticaly when stepped up to 7v
> 
> 
> To go into this in detail would take a couple pages...
> 
> I've posted a still-rough, but more detailed explanation here if anyone cares to read it...
> 
> 
> DEFECTIVE TUBE ALERT!!! (Groove Tubes - ElectroHarmonix/Sovtek... - TECHNICAL SORCERY - The Electronics Wizard's MySpace Blog |
> 
> 
> Hope this helps...
> 
> Gary
> 
> P.S. All tests done with a Sencore TC-28 tube tester... solid-state... While not lab-grade by any means, its "Life Test" does not exist on any other tester that I'm aware of... and has proved invaluable over the years in weeding out defective tubes other testers showed as "Good".
> 
> I have 3 Sencore MU-150's I'm in the process of restoring (Mutual Conductance testers, but they don't have the "Life Test" feature), and am looking at the
> new Amplitrex AT1000 as my next investment.
> 
> Amplitrex Audio Products


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> THanks! Did you see my post above that about the RFT 12AT7 with the Tele label and diamond bottom? I can't get a clear pic of the diamond, but it's there. That's the first RFT Tele I've ever seen in person.



The only way that could happen would be that Tele used RFT parts in their glass, "OR" Tele actually supplied glass to RFT to use with their parts. I have Tele branded tubes "without" the <> and it is pure RFT parts.

Remember, the base with the pins was made as a separate part. Once the guts were soldered to it, the top glass was fused to the base. Then a vacuum is pulled and the nipple tip is created. Then the getter is activated and the tube is ready for testing.


----------



## black70bird

I recently purchased the following from Tube Depot with the recommended postions:
V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise. ($4 dollars extra)
V2-Mullard RI, high gain
V3-EH standard tube
V4-EH high gain

EH 6CA7 Power Tubes

Now I purchased a Raytheon Long Black plate tube 1961($9.99 shipped), tested on B&K 667@#1 83/83, what position would be a good place to start for this tube?

Brain


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> I recently purchased the following from Tube Depot with the recommended postions:
> V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise. ($4 dollars extra)
> V2-Mullard RI, high gain
> V3-EH standard tube
> V4-EH high gain
> 
> EH 6CA7 Power Tubes
> 
> Now I purchased a Raytheon Long Black plate tube 1961($9.99 shipped), tested on B&K 667@#1 83/83, what position would be a good place to start for this tube?
> 
> Brain



If you have a DSL put that BP in V2 to start out with.


----------



## thetragichero

mmmmm dsl with a raytheon blackplate in v2.... TASTY!


----------



## black70bird

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If you have a DSL put that BP in V2 to start out with.



Solar,

Yeah I forgot to add that, it is a DSL 50. Thank you for the recommendation.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> The only way that could happen would be that Tele used RFT parts in their glass, "OR" Tele actually supplied glass to RFT to use with their parts. I have Tele branded tubes "without" the <> and it is pure RFT parts.
> 
> Remember, the base with the pins was made as a separate part. Once the guts were soldered to it, the top glass was fused to the base. Then a vacuum is pulled and the nipple tip is created. Then the getter is activated and the tube is ready for testing.



It was a 12AT7 that I was looking at. I think everybody used those small RFT-style offset plates for their AT7. I have a Tele and a Mullard that are both the real deal and both have almost identical construction. My bad.


----------



## solarburn

black70bird said:


> Solar,
> 
> Yeah I forgot to add that, it is a DSL 50. Thank you for the recommendation.



Any time Bruther! Move them around and experiment too. A few of us really like the Ray BP in V2 with a good tube in V1.


----------



## solarburn

Hey guys I just got an email from Tube Depot and they say Black Sable are better...I want you guys to buy some and tell me if its true or not...K?

http://tubedepot.com/bsct.html?utm_...erm=BLACKSABLECryogenicallyTreatedVacuumTubes


----------



## black70bird

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Any time Bruther! Move them around and experiment too. A few of us really like the Ray BP in V2 with a good tube in V1.



So I would have:
V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise
V2-Raytheon BP
V3-EH standard tube
V4-EH high gain

EH 6CA7 Power Tubes

This evening!


----------



## solarburn

Looks good!


----------



## thetragichero

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey guys I just got an email from Tube Depot and they say Black Sable are better...I want you guys to buy some and tell me if its true or not...K?
> 
> http://tubedepot.com/bsct.html?utm_...erm=BLACKSABLECryogenicallyTreatedVacuumTubes



must be out of your (THEIR) effing mind!


----------



## solarburn

thetragichero said:


> must be out of your (THEIR) effing mind!



You don't know how irate I get when I see shit like that.

Insane. I'd have to be a rock star to buy that shit and then of course I could brag to every one how much better my tubes sound compared to their's...


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey guys I just got an email from Tube Depot and they say Black Sable are better...I want you guys to buy some and tell me if its true or not...K?
> 
> http://tubedepot.com/bsct.html?utm_...erm=BLACKSABLECryogenicallyTreatedVacuumTubes



I keep my Raytheon Black Plates in the freezer next to my vodka. Only the best for my customers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Being a true southerner, I think that my tubes perform better if I deep-fry them to a crispy golden brown. Nice crunch to those bad boys.

Sometimes I bury them at midnight in a sack in a graveyard for a month. When you dig them up, they have such a nice, earthy tone.


----------



## solarburn

Deep fried crunch is exactly what I'm after. I'll take one for V1 Alan.


----------



## thetragichero

RiverRatt said:


> Sometimes I bury them at midnight in a sack in a graveyard for a month. When you dig them up, they have such a nice, earthy tone.



i had a drummer in high school who said that was a thing to do with cymbals


----------



## solarburn

I'm going to try and get a vid of my Monza and post it in the other amp thread but my play'n isn't sexy enough yet and I need to find a happy volume setting that doesn't over take the flip camera's high techiness! Once I do maybe I can get some footage of a bit of V1 rolling in it and have you guys see if you notice. I have to say roll'n in the Marshall was the best platform. The Monza and the NT aren't as revealing. 

I'm bored too. Feeling better but still under Doctor restriction until Saturday. No lifting anything over 10lbs. There goes masturbation...


----------



## MM54

I got that same e-mail about Black Sable, I read the subject bar and didn't progress any further. No need to waste time on that bullshit.


----------



## solarburn

I was hoping we all'd shit on it hehe.


----------



## ken361

just got this Matsushita or it sure looks like one 12AX7 gold pin in, Sounds pretty good.
It did have some very little yellow writing on it Marty prb can figure it out. Looks like it was relabled with the 12ax7 on it.



http://


http://


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup, you got a Shita. The print looks legit, it just doesn't have the logo and name on it. It probably came that way so it could be easily relabeled. The yellow writing may have been the remains of a Realistic Lifetime logo. They re-branded a lot of MIJ tubes. The gold pins are another trick of theirs. AFAIK they were the first to offer a gold-pin tube.


----------



## MM54

And, according to the print on the box of the Realistic tubes (I've not tried it yet) if one ever fails, you can get a replacement for free from radioshack


----------



## solarburn

They will give you what's current now. It won't be a Shita...


----------



## MM54

Well yeah


----------



## solarburn

I know. All these years later. RS honors it still hehe. I want anudder Shita though...


----------



## MM54

I have Realistics that are really odd tube types, that they don't make any more. I kind of want to take one of them in and ask for a replacement


----------



## solarburn

I'd do it. Show them the writing on the wall and say hey man it says it on the box. It doesn't say while quantities last...now gimme my tube!


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, do you have a 7199? I'd love to get a new one out of them. My Ampeg uses 7199 tubes and there aren't a lot of options.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Marty, I just wanted to check in and chirp about the nos tubes you sold me. LOVE THEM
Last night I was cranking the green channel on the dsl and I could not believe how quiet the amp was, not a peep. It just barked when I played.
When I get some jing saved up, I will be hitting you up for some tubes for the new 2204.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the update. I'm glad they are working out.


----------



## RiverRatt

I made something to hook my preamp tubes up to. It's a 1974 board with a PPIMV. I think it qualifies as green as it's mostly recycled components. Only the carbon film resistors and the big electrolytics are new. Several TV's and radios bit the dust for this project.


----------



## solarburn

Cool Alan. What's it gonna sport for wattage/tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RCA Last Days.

I scored some RCA tubes, 12AX7A's. Four are marked, "Gt. Britain" and the other four are marked as made in Yugoslavia (spelled with a J on the tubes). The Gt. Britain tubes are identical to the Jugo's. They appear to be copies of the Telefunken smooth plates. These are NIB tubes. Probably early 80's as RCA quit making their own in 1977.

I have some other RCA "Gt. Britain" tubes that are RFT's.

On the box it says, "RCA/Distribution and Specialty Products Division. Country of Origin as marked on tube."

Well we know that isn't necessarily true...right. I noticed that a Mullard will say, "Made in Gt. Britain," but these mystery tubes will just say, "Gt. Britain" on the tube. I guess that means, "bought while sitting in a box in Gt. Britain."

I'm not complaining. I'll take these over a real late 70's RCA any day. These are V1 tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty, I love your little tube rants. They are so informative.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cool Alan. What's it gonna sport for wattage/tubes?



Since it's a 1974, I assume he will be going with two EL84's and possibly an EZ81 rectifier.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good to hear from you. I miss the Late Night Talk Show. That was a lot of fun.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah that was a lot of fun. What happened to it anyways?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got burnt out staying up until 3 AM and then having to work. My old body said to stop.


----------



## BluesRocker

Damn.. I guess we can give you a break. haha


----------



## MartyStrat54

How's your GAS? Got the urge to buy anything big? How's the DiMarzio's working out?
I'd love to have an SG that sounded like my Explorer. Dave (the owner of the guitar shop) loved that Explorer. He really set the action up on it nice. On all my guitars for what it's worth. They all play better now.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Since it's a 1974, I assume he will be going with two EL84's and possibly an EZ81 rectifier.



1974 I was 9. That's all I know about 74' hehe. On a side note I'm mak'n gluten free pizza. I found some crust that actually tastes great! Gonna be good...

Another side note my Monza is a beast and its all EL84 plus the GZ34.


----------



## thetragichero

MM54 said:


> I have Realistics that are really odd tube types, that they don't make any more. I kind of want to take one of them in and ask for a replacement



they won't know what you're talking about
and probably try to sell you a cellphone


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 1974 I was 9. That's all I know about 74' hehe. On a side note I'm mak'n gluten free pizza. I found some crust that actually tastes great! Gonna be good...
> 
> Another side note my Monza is a beast and its all EL84 plus the GZ34.



It's a 1974 circuit. All I need to finish the amp is a chassis, PT and choke. Well, a handful of pots and an EZ81 rectifier. I've been gassing for a 1974 for quite awhile. If you look back to last December, you'll find a post by me where I said I would own a Marshall 1974 clone before this year is out. I'm gonna have to bust my ass to make that deadline. I need to find a cheap donor amp to build it in.

BTW, you're OLD. I was only 8 in 1974.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's a 1974 circuit. All I need to finish the amp is a chassis, PT and choke. Well, a handful of pots and an EZ81 rectifier. I've been gassing for a 1974 for quite awhile. If you look back to last December, you'll find a post by me where I said I would own a Marshall 1974 clone before this year is out. I'm gonna have to bust my ass to make that deadline. I need to find a cheap donor amp to build it in.
> 
> BTW, you're OLD. I was only 8 in 1974.



Oh come on man. That was just cruel.

A Marshall 1974 then. I'll check into it so I know a little bit more. That's a cool project. Hope you find the rest soon. I want to hear this 74'.

How many preamp tubes?

EDIT:two EL84 power tubes, three ECC83 preamp tubes and an EZ81 rectifier tube. $2300 if you want the combo version 1974X.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Yup, you got a Shita. The print looks legit, it just doesn't have the logo and name on it. It probably came that way so it could be easily relabeled. The yellow writing may have been the remains of a Realistic Lifetime logo. They re-branded a lot of MIJ tubes. The gold pins are another trick of theirs. AFAIK they were the first to offer a gold-pin tube.



I thought it might be a radio shack tube, i have a nos realistic gold pin I think its a 7025 sound pretty thick but I didnt care that much for it, might be high gain. it sounds really close to my other Shita tube so its a good thang.


----------



## ken361

do these stack up as well as the other ones?
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/55/186871_thumb_0e0fd22ad2fe597d9803b9646608d8ae.jpg


----------



## solarburn

ken361 said:


> do these stack up as well as the other ones?
> http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/55/186871_thumb_0e0fd22ad2fe597d9803b9646608d8ae.jpg



I find that the slant getter and D getter Shitas sound best. I like them over Mullards. FYI


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> How's your GAS? Got the urge to buy anything big? How's the DiMarzio's working out?
> I'd love to have an SG that sounded like my Explorer. Dave (the owner of the guitar shop) loved that Explorer. He really set the action up on it nice. On all my guitars for what it's worth. They all play better now.



My gas is gone. Havent bought anything since the dimarazios. And they sound killer. Got a nice tone to them.. I have thought about taking my spare burstbuckers and putting them in my Gretsch.. Hmm wonder how that will sound?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, do you have a 7199? I'd love to get a new one out of them. My Ampeg uses 7199 tubes and there aren't a lot of options.



Sorry, no 7199's in any of my lists. Closest numerically is a 7868, which is a totally different tube (which I need to get tested since there seems to be some demand for them).

I have a NIB Realistic 6GW8 sitting here on the table, no clue why it's even up here. It's stamped "6GW8/ECL86 Gt. Britain." No, it doesn't have Mullard markings on it or seams on the top (Pity).


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> do these stack up as well as the other ones?
> http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/55/186871_thumb_0e0fd22ad2fe597d9803b9646608d8ae.jpg



Those look just like the one in your picture. These are Matsushita branded tubes. Same innards as yours; short plates and round 45° getter. I'm with Joe - I like my Shitas better than the Mullards I've used.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Sorry, no 7199's in any of my lists. Closest numerically is a 7868, which is a totally different tube (which I need to get tested since there seems to be some demand for them).
> 
> I have a NIB Realistic 6GW8 sitting here on the table, no clue why it's even up here. It's stamped "6GW8/ECL86 Gt. Britain." No, it doesn't have Mullard markings on it or seams on the top (Pity).



7199's are rare tubes. Apparently it never was extremely popular and now the supply is short. There are various adapters for using tubes with similar characteristics but different pinouts. It's a small bottle like a 12AX7 but actually has a pentode and triode instead of 2 triodes. The Ampeg uses it as a PI.


----------



## MM54

I have a bunch of 6GH8's (as in, a ton) that I see there are adapters for if you're interested?

(Also, I see Sovtek made the 7199 for a while but discontinued it?)


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> My gas is gone. Havent bought anything since the dimarazios. And they sound killer. Got a nice tone to them.. I have thought about taking my spare burstbuckers and putting them in my Gretsch.. Hmm wonder how that will sound?



I heard it was real difficult working on hollow body electrics. I hear they use special tools.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> A Marshall 1974 then. I'll check into it so I know a little bit more. That's a cool project. Hope you find the rest soon. I want to hear this 74'.



Yes it's a model number, not a year of manufacturing. A 1974 is an old Marshall design and the history of it is sort of complicated. The 1974 is an 18 watt amp that had the EZ81 rectifiers. These were really nice sounding low watt amps. They were built between 1965 and 1967. They were then surpassed by the 20 watt amps. These had solid state rectification. They did not sound as sweet as the 18 watt amp.

The 1974 is available from Marshall as a 1974X and they are pricey.

More info available on Dr. Tube.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes it's a model number, not a year of manufacturing. A 1974 is an old Marshall design and the history of it is sort of complicated. The 1974 is an 18 watt amp that had the EZ81 rectifiers. These were really nice sounding low watt amps. They were built between 1965 and 1967. They were then surpassed by the 20 watt amps. These had solid state rectification. They did not sound as sweet as the 18 watt amp.
> 
> The 1974 is available from Marshall as a 1974X and they are pricey.
> 
> More info available on Dr. Tube.



Yeah I found some info and even heard it in action. Cool amp. I have to say even though i really think my Monza kicks ass as a EL84 amp I like the sound of EL34 amps better. Its the mids between the 2. My NT is like that too and its EL84 driven as well. The mids don't turn me on like the EL34 amps I have or played. That be'n said I still play the shizz out of then EL84 amps. Just a preference or matter of taste. Really need to get another Marshall. Too broke to do it now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can get a 1974 TMB chassis from a guy on eBay in Great Britain for around $37.50 plus shipping. I think I may go that route and add a head box when I can. I'm probably going to have to fund this with eBay sales.


----------



## black70bird

black70bird said:


> So I would have:
> V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise
> V2-Raytheon BP
> V3-EH standard tube
> V4-EH high gain
> 
> EH 6CA7 Power Tubes
> 
> This evening!



Well I finally got time to replace the pre-amp tubes, both the Mullard and the Raytheon BP sounded good in the V2 position. I think the Raytheon BP is a little smoother sounding than the Mullard. What a major improvement over the original tubes. Now for the 6CA7s!


----------



## RiverRatt

Strangeness. Apparently with all the tube shuffling I've managed to pick up a smooth plate Telefunken from somewhere. I have no idea where I got the thing. I wish this would happen more often!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Strangeness. Apparently with all the tube shuffling I've managed to pick up a smooth plate Telefunken from somewhere. I have no idea where I got the thing. I wish this would happen more often!



I wish I found stuff like that! My tele from Marty is amazing, once I get some money I'll get a Raytheon to put behind it 

(I can't complain about finding tubes too much - after all, almost all of my NOS, including two Mullards, are tubes I found in a box of junk)


----------



## thetragichero

i had the day off to recover from the three day music festival
i've found that i like the bell and howell branded [what i think is] raytheon bp with square, slanted getters (the internals look exactly the same as a spare balwin-branded bp just with a different getter... that one was too over the top for this amp) in v1 and the mullard 12dw7 in the pi slot of the picovalve
that 12dw7 tested NUTS, by the way. good reading of 1250/2200 mhos respectively, this thing tested at 1400/4200 according to the little card the seller included with it (on a hickok)
i can't really describe the change in sound, just that it sounded "more good"

none of the spare (read: OLD) el34s sound good in this thing, though... the chinese 6l6 sounds best so far


----------



## RiverRatt

That odd Raytheon you have could be a JRP if it tested that high. They are always stupid-high gain tubes. FWIW, I like the Chinese preamp tubes better in the Pico than the old stuff. They brighten it up a lot. You should hear it with one of those old Tung-Sol 5881s in the octal socket. WOW! So far it is THE magic tube for that amp. I also have an old "coke bottle" RCA 6L6G that sounds very nice. My next favorite is a Tung-Sol 6V6GT. They actually sent me one of those to try out. A+ in customer service even if the amp wasn't exactly what I was hoping for.


----------



## thetragichero

i was down on it when i got the broken one, but i'm liking it
just need to try it with some known good power tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Strangeness. Apparently with all the tube shuffling I've managed to pick up a smooth plate Telefunken from somewhere. I have no idea where I got the thing. I wish this would happen more often!



I sent you one when Joe caused "Telefunken Fever" to hit the Preamp thread.


----------



## thetragichero

marty
try a 12dw7 in the pi slot
i like it in the picovalve... in fact it might be what makes me keep it


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sent you one when Joe caused "Telefunken Fever" to hit the Preamp thread.



Joe caused the fever to hit the thread, but I gave it to him. I picked up that first Tele from Lori and paired it up with the Ray BP that you sent me. I raved about it and Joe went crazy and was ordering smooth plates and ribbed plates and three of everything you had. I've still got Lori's tube and it gets plenty of play time in the Marshall. This Tele just appeared within the last few weeks. I'm sure it was in something I've disassembled and I just thought it was an Ei or something. The diamond was a little hard to see and there is zero print left on the tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> marty
> try a 12dw7 in the pi slot
> i like it in the picovalve... in fact it might be what makes me keep it



I don't know which slot is which, but the Pico wouldn't have a phase inverter. Those are both gain stages. I'll have to open the amp up or see a scheme to be sure, but I think that the left 12AX7 is V1 (looking from the front) and the one in front of the octal tube is V2. If anyone runs across more info, please post it.


----------



## thetragichero

oh weird, so i have a highly unbalanced tube in one of the gain stages.... still sounds pretty good to me


----------



## marty62100

Hi Everybody!
(by the way, i'm french sorry for my english... )

I have recently buyed a Jcm800 2205 1986. 
(This version with a blond grillcloth!! You see? A dream!)

I'm looking for infos about your preamptubes choices for thi amp. I read something about the Other Marty on this forum where he says to go to this thread.. But.. What a thread!! Hard to find something!

So if you can sum'up your choices, Functions of those tubes.. It would be cool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh the fun you can have with a DW7. And there is a bunch of NOS one's still available.


----------



## RiverRatt

What's fun about a DW7? Did I miss something?


----------



## thetragichero

once i get the dsl back i'll try it in V4


----------



## TheLoudness!!

What's a good aggressive tube for my SL-X???


----------



## MartyStrat54

TheLoudness!! said:


> What's a good aggressive tube for my SL-X???



Any high gain Philips made 12AX7/ECC83 will work killer in V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, where is everybody? I just got home from freezing my ass off at a football game and thought that I'd warm up with a glass of bourbon and some 6.3v double triode action here. Nobody bought any interesting toobz lately? Not even one little Shita?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The last interesting tubes I got were the Ei's that were labeled as RCA's.


----------



## thetragichero

i tried the 12dw7 in v2 of the 5e3 (12av7 in v1) ad was able to turn up most of the way without it distorting
granted, it seemed to take out a bit of bite, but i was just using it while tracking drums... just wanted a clean signal anyway

currently i have an rft in v1 and a raytheon bp in v2 of the picovalve.... once i get this strong matched pair of 6v6s off ebay, i'll try one of my other 6v6s in there


----------



## RiverRatt

I have several mismatched 6V6s. If you don't want to waste one of your matched pair, shoot me a PM.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> The last interesting tubes I got were the Ei's that were labeled as RCA's.



I picked up a matched set of GE 12AX7s, I bid on them without expecting to win. Oh well!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope they turn out to be good ones. What did they cost you?

My old lineup in my TSL122 was an RCA 7025 in V1 and GE's in V2, V3 and V4.


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hope they turn out to be good ones. What did they cost you?
> 
> My old lineup in my TSL122 was an RCA 7025 in V1 and GE's in V2, V3 and V4.



I got the pair for $20.26 and they tested #1= 1200/1150 uMhos and #2= 1200/1000 uMhos on a Hickok 539B.


----------



## thetragichero

not really toob related, but i finally recorded the last track for a split with me semi-acoustic project the tragic hero on Myspace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads
guitars were recorded on my 5e3 clone with NOS tubes (GE 12av7, 12ax7 preamp, rca 6v6, sylvania 5y3).... rhythm with my guild, half-assed lead with the p90 of my squier tonemonster and a hardwire tube overdrive


----------



## black70bird

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well prepare yourself. It will make a sonic difference...whether you like it or not.
> 
> The 12DW7 is a 12AX7 on one triode and a 12AU7 on the other triode. This makes for an extremely lopsided PI tube (100/17). Favored mainly by harp players.
> 
> I'll be waiting to hear what you have to say about them. We all might be switching to them.



Marty, what is a good spot for the 12AU7 tube? I just got a Raytheon 12AU7A USA tube, I have this presently:
V1-Tung-Sol, high gain, low noise
V2-Raytheon BP
V3-EH standard 
V4-EH high gain

Thank you


----------



## thetragichero

you might be able to find a fender amp to use the 12au7 in the reverb/tremolo circuit?
i wouldn't use it in a marshall


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. That 12AU7 will neuter any slot you put it in. There's a reason why there are so many 12AU7's available. They ain't a 12AX7.

I wouldn't advise you using it in any of the 12AX7 slots.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Exactly. That 12AU7 will neuter any slot you put it in. There's a reason why there are so many 12AU7's available. They ain't a 12AX7.
> 
> I wouldn't advise you using it in any of the 12AX7 slots.



+1. 

I've tried it in my TSL and it went way beyond neutering it, it took the twig, the berries, the whole shooting match.

Hey Marty. How ya doin'?


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh! Where ya been hiding out, man?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sadly life keeps getting in the way of my Marshally fun, but I'm still around. Not much tube-wise goin' on fer quite a while, but I keep popping in here when I get a minute or two (and an active internet connection...) to see what's happening w/ ya'll. I did finally get around to toying with recording a little bit (not much, but enough to get me exited about the prospect).

Otherwise...

Oh... And I had to thin the heard a wee bit... The Bugera, the cab that originally housed the TSL, the Roland, the Randall cab, and the amp switcher are all gone. I'm down to my TSL, PRS 2x12, RP1000, and my main axes...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

How about you mate?


----------



## RiverRatt

Same ol'. Nothing interesting here at all. I went by a friend's shop yesterday and bought a new SKB Fender case for my Strat. It is a really cool case. It looks like it should have a disassembled sniper rifle in it. Actually I traded a $20 yard sale guitar for it that I had fixed up. I also traded a Fernandes Native for a couple of nice 12" speakers. So I'm down to three guitars: the Gibson 58 RI Les Paul, the flame top strat, and the Tiesco Del Rey (cheap 1960's MIJ - it's what I learned to play on). I really need to thin the amp herd but I don't know what to part with. 

Tube-wise I have a Tung-Sol 5881 and an old long-plate D-getter Matsushita on the way. I'll post something about the Shita when it comes in. If it's anything like the other D's that Joe and I have, it'll be another Mullard-killer. They are in my top 3 preamp tubes of all time... Matsushita D getter, Raytheon black plate and Telefunken smooth plate. Yummy!


----------



## diesect20022000

thetragichero said:


> oh weird, so i have a highly unbalanced tube in one of the gain stages.... still sounds pretty good to me



I did that with my Tiny terror and loved it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Same ol'. Nothing interesting here at all. I went by a friend's shop yesterday and bought a new SKB Fender case for my Strat. It is a really cool case. It looks like it should have a disassembled sniper rifle in it. Actually I traded a $20 yard sale guitar for it that I had fixed up. I also traded a Fernandes Native for a couple of nice 12" speakers. So I'm down to three guitars: the Gibson 58 RI Les Paul, the flame top strat, and the Tiesco Del Rey (cheap 1960's MIJ - it's what I learned to play on). I really need to thin the amp herd but I don't know what to part with.
> 
> Tube-wise I have a Tung-Sol 5881 and an old long-plate D-getter Matsushita on the way. I'll post something about the Shita when it comes in. If it's anything like the other D's that Joe and I have, it'll be another Mullard-killer. They are in my top 3 preamp tubes of all time... Matsushita D getter, Raytheon black plate and Telefunken smooth plate. Yummy!




I've been thinking about those Matsushita's... The way you and Joe have been raving about them, and knowing what kind of music you guys play... That might be a good tube for me to acquire a couple of... What are they going for these days?

Actually though... I'd be smarter if I invested in some spare EL34's first...


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I've been thinking about those Matsushita's... The way you and Joe have been raving about them, and knowing what kind of music you guys play... That might be a good tube for me to acquire a couple of... What are they going for these days?



All over the place. There are a couple of entrepreneurs on eBay asking $89 for a single tube. The one I got was $17.50 which isn't bad for a D-getter. If you shop around, you can sometimes find a really good deal on the 45° slant getter tubes. I wouldn't go any higher than $20 and that's on NOS with a decent return policy.
Stay away from the halo getters - the slant and D are the only ones worth having.

D-getter:





Slant (45° round) getter:





Halo getter:


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Blimey its been while since ive popped in here to catch up, still the same old faces doing the rounds i see.  Just got myself 2 half plate brimars and a box plate cv4004, which sounds great, but ive yet to try it at band volume! Anyone else had any experience with either the Mullard or Brimar cv4004?


edit for Pics

CV4004 boxplate






Brimar ecc83 half plate


----------



## solarburn

Hi guys! Yeah Josh those Shitas(excluding the flat or horizontal 0 getters)are IMO made for DSL's and i'm sure a TSL would luv em' too. Basically if you like NOS Mullard in your amp I'm bet'n you'll dig the slant O/D-getter even more. I don't see many others trying them or talk of them in my online travels and that's fine with me and Alan. More for us that know the magic built into these. They thrive in the Marshall mid voicing and then add some GT 34M's and you'll have all that classic mid rich textures of our fav rock classics that we all love.


----------



## johnfv

OK, I am pretty new to the forums here but want to share my 12AU7 story. When I was a kid in the mid 70s I had an electronics kit that included a tube. I never really used it but have managed to hang on to it all these years - my very own NOS tube  I pulled it out recently, it is a US maded 12AU7 labeled "Bell and Howell". I put in the PI spot on my JCA20H and it works very well, tames the gain down and gives the amp nice headroom. I agree that in most 12AX7 applications it is not a good choice but it has been a nice surprise in this application.


----------



## thetragichero

got a picture of that bell and howell?
i have a bell and howell labeled 12ax7 and it looks/sounds like a raytheon blackplate (although it might be a jrp?)


----------



## paw

Hey Marty
I read on Page 10 or there abouts you have a Mullard High Gain in v4 of your DSL,

What is a Mullard High Gain 12AX7?
How is it different or similar to a new production Mullard?
How much does a NOS Mullard Cost?
Thanks
paw


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hi guys! Yeah Josh those Shitas(excluding the flat or horizontal 0 getters)are IMO made for DSL's and i'm sure a TSL would luv em' too. Basically if you like NOS Mullard in your amp I'm bet'n you'll dig the slant O/D-getter even more. I don't see many others trying them or talk of them in my online travels and that's fine with me and Alan. More for us that know the magic built into these. They thrive in the Marshall mid voicing and then add some GT 34M's and you'll have all that classic mid rich textures of our fav rock classics that we all love.



GT 34M's... Are the those the earlier breakup EL34's?

... By the way... Hey Joe!


----------



## RiverRatt

thetragichero said:


> got a picture of that bell and howell?
> i have a bell and howell labeled 12ax7 and it looks/sounds like a raytheon blackplate (although it might be a jrp?)



I've never seen a re-labeled JRP. Sometimes they are hard to identify as the orange print is pretty fragile and comes off easily. If you have a re-labeled Raytheon, it's just a regular black plate. 

Josh, the EL34Ms are Groove Tubes' version of a Mullard XF2. They are one of the best-sounding CP EL34s out there. They use a rating system like Mesa tubes. They claim it has something to do with lower numbers breaking up earlier, but I've also read that if you change out tubes with tubes that are the same rating, you don't have to rebias. That makes me think it's more of a matching system like Mesa uses and the breakup factor is just another pile of crap they feed us unsuspecting consumers.


----------



## johnfv

thetragichero said:


> got a picture of that bell and howell?...


I'll see if I can pull it out and get a photo...


----------



## MartyStrat54

paw said:


> Hey Marty
> I read on Page 10 or there abouts you have a Mullard High Gain in v4 of your DSL,
> 
> What is a Mullard High Gain 12AX7?
> How is it different or similar to a new production Mullard?
> How much does a NOS Mullard Cost?
> Thanks
> paw



Hello. Real Mullard tubes were made fifty years ago in England. They were in production until the 70's. There is a big difference in tone between an old Mullard and a new production Mullard. This is due to the materials used and the vacuum that was pulled on the tube. Mullard made tubes for other companies. This is called a relabeled tube. You can find a solid relabeled Mullard for around $25 to $35 on EBAY.

A high gain tube is one that test with high transconductance. A new 12AX7 is supposed to measure 100/100. (There are two circuits in a 12AX7.) However, some tubes read above this. Anything from 100 up is high gain. Note: Many tube testers give different reading than what I posted. If you find a tube, PM me with the auction link and I will tell you if it is worth pursuing.


----------



## RiverRatt

I prefer these "Japanese Mullards" that were made on the tooling that Mullard gave/sold to Matsushita. I always get a kick out of those auctions.

What year did Mullard quit making the long-plate tubes and switch over to 14mm plates? I know Matsushita was making long-plate tubes in the late 1950's and early 1960's. Is there as large a tonal difference between the long and short plate Mullards as with the Shitas?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Matsushita's were made up until the 80's and were Radio Shack's supplier of tubes. I feel there is a difference between a British Mullard and a Matsushita Mullard. I also feel like the shorter plate tubes tend to have a more pronounced high end over a long plate that tends to be smooth overall. Also, short plates tend to be a better V1 tube as they are built more rigid.


----------



## paw

Hello Marty
Thank You for the info on the Mullard, History and Tone. filled in a lot of Blanks,
I will be scoping Ebay for NOS Mullards now
paw


----------



## paw

Thanks River Rat
paw


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... Josh, the EL34Ms are Groove Tubes' version of a Mullard XF2. They are one of the best-sounding CP EL34s out there. They use a rating system like Mesa tubes. They claim it has something to do with lower numbers breaking up earlier, but I've also read that if you change out tubes with tubes that are the same rating, you don't have to rebias. That makes me think it's more of a matching system like Mesa uses and the breakup factor is just another pile of crap they feed us unsuspecting consumers.



You'd think that a good tube could stand on it's own merit rather than needing gimicky advertisements...

That being said, as much as I'd like to get some NOS power tubes, I'm just not ready to drop $200/more for a set, so if I can get satisfaction from the GT's I'm more than happy to.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like them pretty well, and Joe was convinced enough to buy his own after trying mine. If you do get a pair, they like to be biased colder than most CP tubes. Mine sounded about right between 36-38mV.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Can't recall off the top of my head, but I think the TSL's bias is usually about 96mV or so... Not sure how that'd compare, but having a wee bit cooler probably wouldn't be too much off an issue... I would think...


----------



## RiverRatt

So your amp must be a 100 watt? I was thinking it was a 60 watt.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yup. TSL122 (... Well... Was a 122... Back when it was a combo. Technically, now that it's a head... It'd be a TSL100) is a 100watt amp.


----------



## thrawn86

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yup. TSL122 (... Well... Was a 122... Back when it was a combo. Technically, now that it's a head... It'd be a TSL100) is a 100watt amp.



You got pics of that bad boy? I can't remember. Howdy all.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Still need to build a cabinet for three head, but you can see it in it's current state in this album... Marshall Amp Forum - joshuaaewallen's Album: Current Gear http://www.marshallforum.com/groups/tsl-tribe-picture3207-jon-wilder-tsl-marshall-heaven.html


----------



## thrawn86

Did Jon rewire the amp so all the valves and the trannies are on top? Way cool if so.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Nope. It's just an upside down TSL122... Modded of course (voice-wise), but just upside down.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Best TSL I ever heard.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

[QUOTE=MartyStrat54;242341]Best TSL I ever heard.[/QUOTE]


----------



## yladrd61

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Blimey its been while since ive popped in here to catch up, still the same old faces doing the rounds i see.  Just got myself 2 half plate brimars and a box plate cv4004, which sounds great, but ive yet to try it at band volume! Anyone else had any experience with either the Mullard or Brimar cv4004?
> 
> 
> 
> edit for Pics
> 
> CV4004 boxplate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brimar ecc83 half plate



Yeah I have a Phillips {Blackburn 163} 12AX7A in V1 and a Brimar CV4004 in V2 on my '70 Super Lead it has never sounded better


----------



## MartyStrat54

Beautiful shots of vintage glass. I love it.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was last there six months ago. I went to the Bass Pro store for some shirts. I have a sister in the area, so I am in the Tulsa area quite a bit.
> 
> Now I appreciate that you are a new member and I did tell Jade that I belonged to this forum...did he have you sign up to check on me? I mean this is a small forum, under 10,000 members. I could have an A-Bomb tirade and it wouldn't go very far. The only person who would say anything to Jade would be you. You catch my drift? If you came here to be a part of the forum, that's great, but if you came here to troll for any "bad words" I may have said, I can save you the time and point you to the threads. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I have a certain amount of clout here. I also am a business owner. I would never do to any of my customers what Jade has done to me. You may be great friends with him. I'm sure of it. However, that doesn't carry any weight between him and I. As I said, I have all of the emails he sent me. I don't plan on making them public, but I also do not like the fact that he kept my amp for six weeks and said/did nothing. And as far as fixing it? I told him, "Would you want this amp out there representing your company?" He is the one that made the offer to me. So far I am waiting on him to fulfill it.
> 
> Again, if you are here to monitor me on Jade's behalf, go right ahead. It's not going to prevent me from voicing my opinion. If he is having you monitor me, I hope he is paying you for your time.



Marty, After some time, and some personal experience, I want to apologize to you for my response. I have learned a lesson the old fashon way. Ya know.. when the horse ate the apple himself and got the runs. LOL Not the prettiest of analogies, sorry. Anyway.. I wanted to make it right, as I know others have read the event, it is only fair I apologize here. 

Thanks for reading.

Rik


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I have already accepted your apology via the PM you sent me, I will again say that it took courage to post an open apology here in my back yard.

For all of you who are wondering what this is about, it goes back to around April or May and involved the Twister amp I had bought. RIK finally ran into some troubles himself with Twister and now can appreciate what I had to say about them.


----------



## hacksaw

Marty, thanks. Quite a lesson. 



Now.. back to the goodies! lets see some more tubage!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Nope. It's just an upside down TSL122... Modded of course (voice-wise), but just upside down.



Upside down... Much like it's owner!



RiverRatt said:


> All over the place. There are a couple of entrepreneurs on eBay asking $89 for a single tube. The one I got was $17.50 which isn't bad for a D-getter. If you shop around, you can sometimes find a really good deal on the 45° slant getter tubes. I wouldn't go any higher than $20 and that's on NOS with a decent return policy.
> Stay away from the halo getters - the slant and D are the only ones worth having.
> 
> D-getter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slant (45° round) getter:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Halo getter:





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hi guys! Yeah Josh those Shitas(excluding the flat or horizontal 0 getters)are IMO made for DSL's and i'm sure a TSL would luv em' too. Basically if you like NOS Mullard in your amp I'm bet'n you'll dig the slant O/D-getter even more. I don't see many others trying them or talk of them in my online travels and that's fine with me and Alan. More for us that know the magic built into these. They thrive in the Marshall mid voicing and then add some GT 34M's and you'll have all that classic mid rich textures of our fav rock classics that we all love.





RiverRatt said:


> I prefer these "Japanese Mullards" that were made on the tooling that Mullard gave/sold to Matsushita. I always get a kick out of those auctions.
> 
> What year did Mullard quit making the long-plate tubes and switch over to 14mm plates? I know Matsushita was making long-plate tubes in the late 1950's and early 1960's. Is there as large a tonal difference between the long and short plate Mullards as with the Shitas?





MartyStrat54 said:


> The Matsushita's were made up until the 80's and were Radio Shack's supplier of tubes. I feel there is a difference between a British Mullard and a Matsushita Mullard. I also feel like the shorter plate tubes tend to have a more pronounced high end over a long plate that tends to be smooth overall. Also, short plates tend to be a better V1 tube as they are built more rigid.



Well... I'm pulling the trigger on the Matsi's. I PM'd Marty, he's still got a couple slant getters, and I'm looking forward to trying them out. Gonna be fun!

On a side note... Hey Alan, ya reinvigorated my love of Kentucky Headhunters music. I had Pickin' On Nashville and Electric Barnyard, but was lookin' around on half.com and went on a shopping spree... I just received; Rave On!!, Stompin' Grounds, Soul, Still Pickin', and Flying Under The Radar. Man... I had forgotten how much I like those guys! Too bad I missed out on the September gig...  ... Maybe next time...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I missed it too. My wife didn't want to go and I didn't want to go by myself. I love that cover of "Big Boss Man" they did. That's some good stuff.

Hope you like the Shitas. If you like Mullards, you'll dig 'em. I have one D getter that's been on its way to me from Canada for a couple of weeks. Hopefully it'll get here one of these days.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I missed it too. My wife didn't want to go and I didn't want to go by myself. I love that cover of "Big Boss Man" they did. That's some good stuff...



Yeah, it's good stuff. So far my favorite is still the "Electric Barnyard" album (I can listen to that one repeatedly from start to finish), but I am now also finding a lot of Headhunters tunes I'd never heard, and are really, really, good.



RiverRatt said:


> ... Hope you like the Shitas. If you like Mullards, you'll dig 'em. I have one D getter that's been on its way to me from Canada for a couple of weeks. Hopefully it'll get here one of these days.



Yeah, I don't too often have much money these days, so when I do get a few extra $$$'s it's fun to spend a little on something I know I will enjoy. So for me... That'd be tubes and tunes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh-That answered my question. You want both of the slant tops. 

Got it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yes indeedily doodily. You betcha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS,NOS,NOS!!!

Man I love NOS tubes and I love to talk about them. If you have a question, give us a shout. One of the tube guys will help you out.

We deal with all types of tubes. Current production or NOS.

Let us help you.


----------



## DirtySteve

Ok, I'll bite. I've accuired a second Class 5 and I'm going to be buying some more tubes soon. I'd like to know how other high gain preamp tubes compare to the Phillips Miniwatt I have now. Are they basically the same? I like the Raytheon Black Plate for V2 but I might want to try something different for V1.


----------



## GuiltySparc

Sooo, i retubed my TSL100 (head) when i first got the amp several years ago with all JJs and then i did the power section about a year ago (again with JJs) and now i have the bug to experiment with some more preamp tubes. I'm looking at picking up a couple Tung Sols to slap in V1 and 2, figure i'll leave the current JJs in 3 and 4.

I like the sound of my amp a lot now, so i'm not really sure what i'm looking for tone-wise...other than just experimenting for experiment’s sake, lol.

Anywho, whats the proper protocol for swapping preamp tubes in and quickly so i dont get electrocuted? When i was replacing the stock glass i just let it sit unplugged over night, but that doesnt seem like an effcient way to try out several tubes!


----------



## ken361

Any love for the RFT?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a couple of RFT pre's that are nice V1 tubes. They are a little dark sounding, (which I like!). 

Marty, do you remember testing one of my Sonotone side-getters fairly recently? It tested at 29-21. I put that tube in the PI slot last night while I was doing some recording and it sounded really, really good. That's the most lopsided PI tube I've ever used and it did seem like the tone was a little thicker and less spiky than usual.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DirtySteve said:


> Ok, I'll bite. I've accuired a second Class 5 and I'm going to be buying some more tubes soon. I'd like to know how other high gain preamp tubes compare to the Phillips Miniwatt I have now. Are they basically the same? I like the Raytheon Black Plate for V2 but I might want to try something different for V1.



Other tubes to try would be a Mullard, Telefunken, Ei or Matsushita slant or D getter.

Beyond this are Amperex, Siemens, Bel and other rarer Philips made tubes.

Again, the key is to find one that is high gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ken361 said:


> Any love for the RFT?



If the amp is really bright, an RFT works in V1. Otherwise, I prefer it in the V2 slot. RFT's are a darker sounding tube. They provide a darker, creamier tone in the V2 slot versus a Raytheon Black Plate.

They are damn good utility tubes as well (V3 and V4).


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a couple of RFT pre's that are nice V1 tubes. They are a little dark sounding, (which I like!).
> 
> Marty, do you remember testing one of my Sonotone side-getters fairly recently? It tested at 29-21. I put that tube in the PI slot last night while I was doing some recording and it sounded really, really good. That's the most lopsided PI tube I've ever used and it did seem like the tone was a little thicker and less spiky than usual.



Welcome to the world of lopsided PI tubes. Yes, I remember that tube. What would really be cool is if you could find out what side of the PI tube needs to be more lopsided than the other side. For instance, if the positive part of the sine wave is stronger than the negative, you would want a tube that is weaker on the negative side. This would create a even more prominent asymmetrical sine wave, which is what you want. If you went with a tube that did the opposite, it would make the PI more balanced, which is what you do not want. I hope that made sense to you.


----------



## blues_n_cues

MartyStrat54 said:


> Welcome to the world of lopsided PI tubes. Yes, I remember that tube. What would really be cool is if you could find out what side of the PI tube needs to be more lopsided than the other side. For instance, if the positive part of the sine wave is stronger than the negative, you would want a tube that is weaker on the negative side. This would create a even more prominent asymmetrical sine wave, which is what you want. If you went with a tube that did the opposite, it would make the PI more balanced, which is what you do not want. I hope that made sense to you.



there ya go... f*cking me all up again.....but then w/ new cabs,pots,pickups... i'll prolly lose what i liked & wanted to do in the beginning...


like zappa said(for me) just shut up & play yer guitar....it's still gonna be you....


----------



## joshuaaewallen

GuiltySparc said:


> Sooo, i retubed my TSL100 (head) when i first got the amp several years ago with all JJs and then i did the power section about a year ago (again with JJs) and now i have the bug to experiment with some more preamp tubes. I'm looking at picking up a couple Tung Sols to slap in V1 and 2, figure i'll leave the current JJs in 3 and 4.
> 
> I like the sound of my amp a lot now, so i'm not really sure what i'm looking for tone-wise...other than just experimenting for experiment’s sake, lol.
> 
> Anywho, *whats the proper protocol for swapping preamp tubes in and quickly so i dont get electrocuted? When i was replacing the stock glass i just let it sit unplugged over night, but that doesnt seem like an effcient way to try out several tubes!*



Unless you are sticking your fingers in places that they really should not be, I wouldn't worry too much about being electrocuted swapping preamp tubes. But... *Make sure the amp is completely powered down before* *swapping tubes*. I have a TSL100, and have done a fair amount of pre-amp tube swapping. My basic procedure is to let the amp warm up nicely to start with, then I'll power everything down for 30-60 seconds while I perform the swap, and I just power it back up, leave it on standby for another 30 seconds or so, then I play away.

On my first go-round with a new trial tube I don't like to move the eq around too much from my "normal" settings. this way I can see just how different the tubes sound compared to what I'm used to. Then I start fiddling w/ the controls looking for interesting sweet spots.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but that's how I usually go about things. I'd like to get myself a decent mic and actually record samples of me playing the same things, w/ the same settings, using different tubes, for a comparison. My thinking here is that I could come back later and have a listen w/ a "fresh set of ears" on the matter...

Anyhoo... I hope this helps. Rock on!


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> On my first go-round with a new trial tube I don't like to move the eq around too much from my "normal" settings. I'd like to get myself a decent mic and actually record samples of me playing the same things, w/ the same settings, using different tubes, for a comparison. My thinking here is that I could come back later and have a listen w/ a "fresh set of ears" on the matter...
> 
> Anyhoo... I hope this helps. Rock on!



thats exactly what i am going to do when my new tubes get here- a lot of swap around & recording while taking notes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> thats exactly what i am going to do when my new tubes get here- a lot of swap around & recording while taking notes.



What do you use to record? I am looking for the simplest, most cost effective way to get a good recording that actually reflects the sound coming out of my speakers...


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> What do you use to record? I am looking for the simplest, most cost effective way to get a good recording that actually reflects the sound coming out of my speakers...



there is some free stuff out there like audacity but i use mixcraft 
Mixcraft 5 - Affordable multi-track audio and MIDI recording software.

it's a lot easier & more user friendly than protools or cakewalk & has great sound plus a free trial & a great help forum(sounds like a plug but i'm not plugging it or selling it).

pm me if ya want more info.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> there is some free stuff out there like audacity but i use mixcraft
> Mixcraft 5 - Affordable multi-track audio and MIDI recording software.
> 
> it's a lot easier & more user friendly than protools or cakewalk & has great sound plus a free trial & a great help forum(sounds like a plug but i'm not plugging it or selling it).
> 
> pm me if ya want more info.



I'm actually using Audacity right now. I was thinking more along the lines of how to get the sound into the computer. So far I'm not thrilled w/ USB recording through the RP1000. Using the Emulated Line Out on my Marshall is a ton better, but not quite there yet either. Case in point: http://www.marshallforum.com/241056-post54.html


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'm actually using Audacity right now. I was thinking more along the lines of how to get the sound into the computer. So far I'm not thrilled w/ USB recording through the RP1000. Using the Emulated Line Out on my Marshall is a ton better, but not quite there yet either. Case in point: http://www.marshallforum.com/241056-post54.html



for straight recording (mic to comp) i just use a shure sm57 w/ adapters. xlr to 1/4" to 1/8th"
works for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I use a 57, too. I bought one of those little Radio Shack mixers for $10 used and got a firewire interface for Mac and run RCA cables from the mixer to the interface. Unfortunately my luck with electronics is still off - I tried to record some stuff last night and every time I try to run GarageBand it locks up the computer.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I use a 57, too. I bought one of those little Radio Shack mixers for $10 used and got a firewire interface for Mac and run RCA cables from the mixer to the interface. Unfortunately my luck with electronics is still off - I tried to record some stuff last night and every time I try to run GarageBand it locks up the computer.



One thing I keep hearing, from a lot of guys, is the use of the Shure SM57. I'm guessing that this is a fairly tried and true mic to record with. So... If I scratch together the $$$ for a mic, then it's just a matter of the right method of getting that sweet Marshall NOS tube amp sound from the mic to the pc... I know that there's a crap load of products out there, some of which even incorporate a tube pre-amp in the circuit, so... I'd love to hear what all the tube audiophiles that haunt the tube threads are using...


----------



## MM54

I have an SM57 into a Tascam US-100 into my laptop to record.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I have an SM57 into a Tascam US-100 into my laptop to record.



Love the Avatar you've got mate!

... Hey... Any soundclips online available?


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> One thing I keep hearing, from a lot of guys, is the use of the Shure SM57. I'm guessing that this is a fairly tried and true mic to record with. So... If I scratch together the $$$ for a mic, then it's just a matter of the right method of getting that sweet Marshall NOS tube amp sound from the mic to the pc...  I know that there's a crap load of products out there, some of which even incorporate a tube pre-amp in the circuit, so... I'd love to hear what all the tube audiophiles that haunt the tube threads are using...



right now MF & GC have the shure sm57 w/ cable & stand for $109 w/ a $10 rebate.
the day after t-day or x-mas they may do the 57 & sm58(vocals) mic for $99 sale again- go for that.


normally i run my 57 & a room overhead condenser mic through my Behringer board into the comp via a 1/4"guitar cable to a 1/8" headphone type input into the mic input on the comp.

then i triple the track- 1 middle(dry) 1 full left w/ a dash of verb & the 3rd full right w/ a room slap delay..

you can get some good stuff.


----------



## blues_n_cues

RiverRatt said:


> I use a 57, too. I bought one of those little Radio Shack mixers for $10 used and got a firewire interface for Mac and run RCA cables from the mixer to the interface. Unfortunately my luck with electronics is still off - I tried to record some stuff last night and every time I try to run GarageBand it locks up the computer.



when recording- turn your internet & all antivirus off- ya got ASIO4ALL right? 
that should fix it.- turn off the net,antibug ,& anything running in the background. turn off yer screensaver too.- it'll work.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> right now MF & GC have the shure sm57 w/ cable & stand for $109 w/ a $10 rebate.
> the day after t-day or x-mas they may do the 57 & sm58(vocals) mic for $99 sale again- go for that.
> 
> 
> normally i run my 57 & a room overhead condenser mic through my Behringer board into the comp via a 1/4"guitar cable to a 1/8" headphone type input into the mic input on the comp.
> 
> then i triple the track- 1 middle(dry) 1 full left w/ a dash of verb & the 3rd full right w/ a room slap delay..
> 
> you can get some good stuff.



I didn't think of that. This is good. It gives me a check or two before the sales start...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> when recording- turn your internet & all antivirus off- ya got ASIO4ALL right?
> that should fix it.- turn off the net,antibug ,& anything running in the background. turn off yer screensaver too.- it'll work.



Things like recording and audio/video conversion use a lot of CPU. The less you have running on your computer while performing these tasks, the fewer problems you'll have...


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Love the Avatar you've got mate!
> 
> ... Hey... Any soundclips online available?



Thanks 

Here's the only clip I think I have online with this recording setup. It's the ML100, but the mic placement was off a bit so I didn't get much low-end. Listening to it now, it's not that great :/

http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Seasons_Clip.mp3


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> One thing I keep hearing, from a lot of guys, is the use of the Shure SM57. I'm guessing that this is a fairly tried and true mic to record with. So... If I scratch together the $$$ for a mic, then it's just a matter of the right method of getting that sweet Marshall NOS tube amp sound from the mic to the pc... I know that there's a crap load of products out there, some of which even incorporate a tube pre-amp in the circuit, so... I'd love to hear what all the tube audiophiles that haunt the tube threads are using...



here's a clip(long) of just my cheapazz desktop mic in front of my marshall-
nothing but onboard reverb added after the fact.
don't mind my playing- i hada buzz & was sucking that night..
point is - it's a radio shack desktop mic- les paul,cheapazz dan-o od,cable, vox wah, lespaul,(did i mention rum??)
it's strat w/ wah to LP w/ wah to boost & pickup change w/ wah- don't mind the pickin'- i was just tone testing.
new jcm800 mp3


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Here's the only clip I think I have online with this recording setup. It's the ML100, but the mic placement was off a bit so I didn't get much low-end. Listening to it now, it's not that great :/
> 
> http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Seasons_Clip.mp3



I see what ya mean about the low end, but I like the way the chords sound so tight...


----------



## MM54

Here's the only other one I have on my server right now, it's better than the last. Disregard the shitty playing, I wanted to see how well my sabbath tone would record.

http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/NIB-2_SAMPLE_.mp3


----------



## BluesRocker

Howdy guys.. Whats the topic tonight?? Been a while since I have dropped by.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> here's a clip(long) of just my cheapazz desktop mic in front of my marshall-
> nothing but onboard reverb added after the fact.
> don't mind my playing- i hada buzz & was sucking that night..
> point is - it's a radio shack desktop mic- les paul,cheapazz dan-o od,cable, vox wah, lespaul,(did i mention rum??)
> it's strat w/ wah to LP w/ wah to boost & pickup change w/ wah- don't mind the pickin'- i was just tone testing.
> new jcm800 mp3



Strangle-hold... Hells Bells... Oh yeah...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Howdy guys.. Whats the topic tonight?? Been a while since I have dropped by.



Hey Mate, how's it goin'? Tonight... So far... I've hijacked the thread to pick everyone's brain on the subject of home recording...


----------



## MM54

I just found another good clip on this laptop, tomorrow I'll take it downstairs and put it on my server and post it here.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ahh Home recording.. Always a good subject.. I use the M-Audio Mobile Pre Interface. Various Mics in Different placements, ProTools when I feel froggy, and I usually use Cool-Edit Pro.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Thanks
> 
> Here's the only clip I think I have online with this recording setup. It's the ML100, but the mic placement was off a bit so I didn't get much low-end. Listening to it now, it's not that great :/
> 
> http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Seasons_Clip.mp3





blues_n_cues said:


> here's a clip(long) of just my cheapazz desktop mic in front of my marshall-
> nothing but onboard reverb added after the fact.
> don't mind my playing- i hada buzz & was sucking that night..
> point is - it's a radio shack desktop mic- les paul,cheapazz dan-o od,cable, vox wah, lespaul,(did i mention rum??)
> it's strat w/ wah to LP w/ wah to boost & pickup change w/ wah- don't mind the pickin'- i was just tone testing.
> new jcm800 mp3





MM54 said:


> Here's the only other one I have on my server right now, it's better than the last. Disregard the shitty playing, I wanted to see how well my sabbath tone would record.
> 
> http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/NIB-2_SAMPLE_.mp3



... This is good. It gives me a little bit of an idea what you guys are using, what kind of results you are getting, and what I might be able to expect to achieve... I appreciate it, and please... Keep the info & examples coming!


----------



## thrawn86

I gotta do a bit more recording as well. The NOS are singing well these days.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Ahh Home recording.. Always a good subject.. I use the M-Audio Mobile Pre Interface. Various Mics in Different placements, ProTools when I feel froggy, and I usually use Cool-Edit Pro.



I'm picking everyone's brain... Ya have any examples and suggestions of good do's, don't's (is that a word?), and other good rules of thumb?


----------



## BluesRocker

Mic Placement is the KEY... I have had my mic off half and inch before and loose all my treble and have nothing but mids and bass. then adjust it again to get it to sound like what I hear it from the speaker


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey... Where's my tube guru Marty tonight?


----------



## MM54

Scratch my last post, I found a bunch I had marked as no good that sound pretty good now that my ears aren't used to my amp roaring into my head like they were when I recorded/sorted them. They should be up tomorrow.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Mic Placement is the KEY... I have had my mic off half and inch before and loose all my treble and have nothing but mids and bass. then adjust it again to get it to sound like what I hear it from the speaker



So it doesn't work too well to just drape the mic over the cab in front of the speaker like ya sometimes see in pictures?

(I've only done _very little_ recording, and that via USB and Emulated Line Out, so I really have no experience to go on...)



MM54 said:


> Scratch my last post, I found a bunch I had marked as no good that sound pretty good now that my ears aren't used to my amp roaring into my head like they were when I recorded/sorted them. They should be up tomorrow.



Keep 'em comin' mate. I'd like to hear 'em.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well..Yes and no. Yes depending on where it hangs. I particularly do not like that way. I like having a small stand and sit the mic where I want. And it gives me the ability to place it in different areas.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I have observed that when recording using the Line Out on my amp it is very easy to over-load the mic in on my laptop's soundcard... When actually mic'ing an amp, does it often become a problem recording a loud amp? (As we all know... Usually guitar amps sound best when good and cranked...)


----------



## BluesRocker

Well since I have that M-Audio interface I can adjust the mics volume and gain on the front of the interface. So if I want to play at night I turn the volume up and if I want to crank I turn it down. It comes in handy.


----------



## thetragichero

can be a problem... pretty much anything in the signal chain after the speaker that overloads and distorts sounds like crap... mic diaphragm, mic preamp....
on a mixer, i like to set the faders to unity gain (0) and adjust the input gain until it fits
my current recording setup is several mics through a bunch of rackmount preamps/compressors into the digital four track i've been using for the past ten years
ordered a new pc friday just for recording... will order the DAW when i get paid in a couple weeks


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Mate, how's it goin'? Tonight... So far... I've hijacked the thread to pick everyone's brain on the subject of home recording...



there ain't no brain pickin' it's real simple- 
shure sm57 for insturments or 58 for vocals
into the comp via mixboard,inverter, or adapters
add fx per track as neccessary..
mix down to mp3 & upload to reverbnation..


is it that frikkin' hard???


----------



## blues_n_cues

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... This is good. It gives me a little bit of an idea what you guys are using, what kind of results you are getting, and what I might be able to expect to achieve... I appreciate it, and please... Keep the info & examples coming!



that is by no means my pro chit- thats just to get ideas on "tape".


----------



## joshuaaewallen

blues_n_cues said:


> that is by no means my pro chit- thats just to get ideas on "tape".



Ok... Reality check for me... I'm never gonna be pro. That's just the way it is, but... What can a poor boy do to get his recording fix. What can I do to get better than "demo" quality recordings, w/out having to shell out the $$$ for the Full Monty? That's basically what I'm after.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Depends on the mic whether hanging works or placing it on a stand works. A SM58 has a very wide pattern of sound pickup. Thats one you can just drape in front of a speaker and have pretty good luck with. A SM57 is very directed and a very narrow pattern of pickup...these need to placed on a stand just off-set of the center of the cone...pointing at the center of the cone on about a 45 degree angle.


----------



## schwa

I've been reading this thread bit by bit, so much great info. 

I have a 2204 head (3 pre amp tubes), and it currently has newer EH tubes in it. I have a small stash of NOS/used OS tubes to try out. I think I have 4 Mullards, 2 Teles, and 3 or 4 GE's as well as some current production tubes. 

It will take a long time to run through all of the possible combos, so it would be great to get some suggestions as what to try first. Also, does it matter what tubes go into V2 and V3? I don't want to use a NOS tube in there if a current tube would do just as well. 

I know it's a complex question, but any advice would be appreciated.


----------



## BluesRocker

Try out your mullards and tele's in V1......V2 and V3 preferably need to be a higher gain tube. 

V1 will effect your tone the most. get the one you like in V1 out of the way first. then try the others in different spots.

Hope this helps


----------



## cylon185

hi guys,

is this Mullard genuine ?






Cheers,

Cyril


----------



## GuiltySparc

joshuaaewallen said:


> Unless you are sticking your fingers in places that they really should not be, I wouldn't worry too much about being electrocuted swapping preamp tubes. But... *Make sure the amp is completely powered down before* *swapping tubes*. I have a TSL100, and have done a fair amount of pre-amp tube swapping. My basic procedure is to let the amp warm up nicely to start with, then I'll power everything down for 30-60 seconds while I perform the swap, and I just power it back up, leave it on standby for another 30 seconds or so, then I play away.
> 
> On my first go-round with a new trial tube I don't like to move the eq around too much from my "normal" settings. this way I can see just how different the tubes sound compared to what I'm used to. Then I start fiddling w/ the controls looking for interesting sweet spots.
> 
> I can't speak for anyone else here, but that's how I usually go about things. I'd like to get myself a decent mic and actually record samples of me playing the same things, w/ the same settings, using different tubes, for a comparison. My thinking here is that I could come back later and have a listen w/ a "fresh set of ears" on the matter...
> 
> Anyhoo... I hope this helps. Rock on!



Awesome, thanks for the tip! I do quick recording with my android phone or camera actually, lol. The sound quality isnt awesome, but its passable. Here is an example i did right after putting the JJs in the power section.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5Zwo2eRW_8]YouTube - JJ PowerTubes[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

blues_n_cues said:


> when recording- turn your internet & all antivirus off- ya got ASIO4ALL right?
> that should fix it.- turn off the net,antibug ,& anything running in the background. turn off yer screensaver too.- it'll work.



No, this is on an old G4 Mac that I brought home from work as it's too old to run the latest OS and anything else. It has ASIO drivers built-in. Everything was working fine until I tried to re-load a saved project.

This is what I came up with before it crapped out. It's the first time I ever used GarageBand to record. Everything is dry, just an SM57 into the mixer into the computer. I was just messing around with mic placement and levels so a lot of it was looped to give me a rhythm track to play with, until it started locking up.

GBTest.mp3


----------



## MM54

Here we are: These were recorded with my LP straight into the ML100, no effects, pedal, anything. The only thing that varies between them is guitar and amp settings, as well as mic placement (which was the reason I did these... I've still not found that sweet spot to record what I'm hearing when I play!). For the record, V1 is a 32/32 Telefunken I got from Marty 

Am I Evil
http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/AmIEvil_1.mp3

Duke Nukem
http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Duke_Nukem.mp3

Madhouse (This one the mic was so far off that it sounded like shit, so there's some post-production EQ going on to make it bearable to listen to. The bass was everywhere except where it should be)
http://www.mm54.net/guitarclips/Madhouse_1F.mp3


If you'll pardon my lousy playing, there are some clips to enjoy


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thanks guys. I really appreciate your input on recording. Rock on!!!


----------



## BluesRocker

Your welcome Josh


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Your welcome Josh


----------



## RiverRatt

I was using a pretty different preamp setup for my clip. I had a Matsushita slant getter in V1, a Raytheon black plate in V2 and V3, and a very lopsided Sonotone 12AX7 side getter in V4. It's a pretty smooth tone and it sounded more distorted on the recording than I thought it was in person. Guitar 1 and 2 were recorded with the same settings, but guitar 2 had less volume and a closer mic, which gave it a little more punchy sound. I think I could get addicted to this. I just wish I could play lead worth a damn.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I just wish I could play lead worth a damn.



Amen. I cant either.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I just wish I could play lead worth a damn.



You and me both mate. I suck at lead.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> No, this is on an old G4 Mac that I brought home from work as it's too old to run the latest OS and anything else. It has ASIO drivers built-in. Everything was working fine until I tried to re-load a saved project.
> 
> This is what I came up with before it crapped out. It's the first time I ever used GarageBand to record. Everything is dry, just an SM57 into the mixer into the computer. I was just messing around with mic placement and levels so a lot of it was looped to give me a rhythm track to play with, until it started locking up.
> 
> GBTest.mp3



Linky not working for me...


----------



## BluesRocker

Maybe if all 3 of us play lead at the same time it would sound good. Maybe?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I just wish I could play lead worth a damn.





BluesRocker said:


> Amen. I cant either.





joshuaaewallen said:


> You and me both mate. I suck at lead.



Hmm... I'm sensing a theme here... 

... I guess none of us are really alone. Eh, guys?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Joe...



Where you going with that gun in your hand?


----------



## solarburn

I won't shoot my ole lady...tonite hehe.

Was up!!!!!!


----------



## BluesRocker

Not alot.. Just jammin to some tunes and working on some songs.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey! Dirty ol' Joe! How ya doin' mate?


----------



## solarburn

Well thats cool. Sounds like fun...cause it is. I didn't get a chance to play today so riff a few for me will ya...?!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> No, this is on an old G4 Mac that I brought home from work as it's too old to run the latest OS and anything else. It has ASIO drivers built-in. Everything was working fine until I tried to re-load a saved project.
> 
> This is what I came up with before it crapped out. It's the first time I ever used GarageBand to record. Everything is dry, just an SM57 into the mixer into the computer. I was just messing around with mic placement and levels so a lot of it was looped to give me a rhythm track to play with, until it started locking up.
> 
> GBTest.mp3





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Linky not working for me...



Ditto.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey! Dirty ol' Joe! How ya doin' mate?



Howdy rowdy! Good to see you in here.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Howdy rowdy! Good to see you in here.



Good to be seen! 

What's new out west man?


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well thats cool. Sounds like fun...cause it is. I didn't get a chance to play today so riff a few for me will ya...?!



Will do. Ill be doing some songwriting with a fellow musician this Saturday. Gonna work on puttin out an album. It will be fun. All strictly blues.

Oh BTW guys, I get to meet Joe Bonamassa on Friday, if I havent said that all ready. Im super stoked. He is my idol, my favorite. The best.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Bonamassa... How cool is that! I'd say tell 'im I said hi, but he doesn't know me from Adam, so... Enjoy the moment bro! That's gonna rock.

Kinda reminds me of the Kentucky Headhunters song "Last Night I Met Carl Perkins... And She Can't Take That Away..."


----------



## BluesRocker

You dont have to remind me of any KY HH songs.. I know those guys. They practice about 15 min from here. Met them when I was around 12


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> You dont have to remind me of any KY HH songs.. I know those guys. They practice about 15 min from here. Met them when I was around 12



Now I am jealous. My favorites are Def Leppard, and... The Kentucky Headhunters... How opposite can ya get, eh? It'd rock to get to meet them...


----------



## BluesRocker

They were pretty cool from what I remember. I also know the lead singer of Black Stone Cherry. I have actually played guitar with him. Which was pretty cool. That band used to practice where the HH did. I remember seeing BSC wayy back when I was in HS and they were playing small clubs.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> They were pretty cool from what I remember. I also know the lead singer of Black Stone Cherry. I have actually played guitar with him. Which was pretty cool. That band used to practice where the HH did. I remember seeing BSC wayy back when I was in HS and they were playing small clubs.



When you were in HS? How old are you mate?


----------



## BluesRocker

I am 23.. Be 24 next month


----------



## RiverRatt

Try this one. The folder was set to "private" by default. I think it's working now.

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/245154_vmm1z/GBTest.mp3


----------



## BluesRocker

Sounds good Alan! Keep up the good work!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Good to be seen!
> 
> What's new out west man?



Sorry man...I'm play'n with the kids. We got our first snow today. About 4 inches. Enough for some fun anyway. Girls are stoked. Hop'n for a snow day(out of school)for tomorrow.


----------



## solarburn

Sounds great Alan!. Like the drums. Wish I had that hehe. That was cool. You should keep em' coming.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rock it up dude.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> I am 23.. Be 24 next month



Yep... I am getting old. 



RiverRatt said:


> Try this one. The folder was set to "private" by default. I think it's working now.
> 
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/245154_vmm1z/GBTest.mp3



Dang man. That is awersome. Could use a tad more "presence", but LOVE it!!!



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sorry man...I'm play'n with the kids. We got our first snow today. About 4 inches. Enough for some fun anyway. Girls are stoked. Hop'n for a snow day(out of school)for tomorrow.



Sinse I so hate to be out done... We got almost a foot a week ago...



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sounds great Alan!. Like the drums. Wish I had that hehe. That was cool. You should keep em' coming.



How'd you get the drums on there like that mate?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Rock it up dude.



Hey Marty. How ya doin' Mate? Missed ya last night?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

43 minutes and this old man has to hit the sack...


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Rock it up dude.



Whats up Doc?


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Dang man. That is awersome. Could use a tad more "presence", but LOVE it!!!



Presence is my enemy. But yeah, it sounded really bassy when I was working with it, but I didn't know how to EQ it after it was recorded. I had the presence off and the treble on about 4 so it was a dark sound. For some reason, I like a darker tone and with the LP into the clean channel it's pretty chunky already. I just can't get over how THICK a Marshall sounds recorded. I could have mixed the bass in a lot better too. You can barely notice it.



joshuaaewallen said:


> How'd you get the drums on there like that mate?



Apple Loops. There's not a great selection, but there are some usable sampled loops for just about any style. What I like is that no matter what tempo the loop was recorded at, it fits to your project's tempo. You can cut measures out of the loop, copy a part of it to a new loop, it's pretty cool.

Joe, that's a clean green DSL50 being pushed by your former OCD, by the way. That's the best money I've ever spent on a pedal.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Presence is my enemy. But yeah, it sounded really bassy when I was working with it, but I didn't know how to EQ it after it was recorded. I had the presence off and the treble on about 4 so it was a dark sound. For some reason, I like a darker tone and with the LP into the clean channel it's pretty chunky already. I just can't get over how THICK a Marshall sounds recorded. I could have mixed the bass in a lot better too. You can barely notice it.
> 
> 
> 
> Apple Loops. There's not a great selection, but there are some usable sampled loops for just about any style. What I like is that no matter what tempo the loop was recorded at, it fits to your project's tempo. You can cut measures out of the loop, copy a part of it to a new loop, it's pretty cool.
> 
> Joe, that's a clean green DSL50 being pushed by your former OCD, by the way. That's the best money I've ever spent on a pedal.



I liked the rhythm too. Made me want to grab my guitar and play along man. Glad the OCD is delivering. Nothing like a good boost OD pedal and of course that one has plenty of gain for anyone. I like the midgain tones it does best.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Presence is my enemy. But yeah, it sounded really bassy when I was working with it, but I didn't know how to EQ it after it was recorded. I had the presence off and the treble on about 4 so it was a dark sound. For some reason, I like a darker tone and with the LP into the clean channel it's pretty chunky already. I just can't get over how THICK a Marshall sounds recorded. I could have mixed the bass in a lot better too. You can barely notice it.



Presence, in my humble opinion, can be tough to dial in. The right amount makes everything rich and loaded w/ definition, not enough is too muddy, too much is just too brittle... I fight that battle myself too mate... But I dig the recording. Keep 'em coming! 





RiverRatt said:


> Apple Loops. There's not a great selection, but there are some usable sampled loops for just about any style. What I like is that no matter what tempo the loop was recorded at, it fits to your project's tempo. You can cut measures out of the loop, copy a part of it to a new loop, it's pretty cool.



Far out... I may have to look into that...



RiverRatt said:


> Joe, that's a clean green DSL50 being pushed by your former OCD, by the way. That's the best money I've ever spent on a pedal.



OCD?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?


----------



## RiverRatt

Obsessive Compulsive Drive.

They are around $135 street. They will run on a 9v adapter but an 18v will really bring the pedal to life.


----------



## GuiltySparc

I might be misunderstanding, but i thought you wanted a balanced tube for the PI socket? Reading lots of things in this thread about using lopsided tubes there...?


----------



## RiverRatt

The theory is that if you use a lopsided PI tube, you will create a more asymmetrical wave that is richer in even-order harmonics. Using a balanced PI tube is pointless in a push-pull guitar amp as the PI circuit itself isn't balanced. I've got an old Ampeg that uses a 7199 as a phase inverter. Now that is lopsided!


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Obsessive Compulsive Disorder?



Try OTD-Obsessive Tube Disorder. Speaking of that, I got your tubes mailed out today.


----------



## MartyStrat54

GuiltySparc said:


> I might be misunderstanding, but i thought you wanted a balanced tube for the PI socket? Reading lots of things in this thread about using lopsided tubes there...?



The beauty of it is that you can try a slightly lopsided tube or try a 12DW7 which is highly lopsided to see what you like. 12DW7 can be bought for a fair price as NOS. thetragichero has been experimenting with a 12DW7 in his amp.

You need to have access to a tube tester to find a lopsided 12AX7.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Try OTD-Obsessive Tube Disorder. Speaking of that, I got your tubes mailed out today.



Awesome and AWESOME!!!


----------



## GuiltySparc

MartyStrat54 said:


> The beauty of it is that you can try a slightly lopsided tube or try a 12DW7 which is highly lopsided to see what you like. 12DW7 can be bought for a fair price as NOS. thetragichero has been experimenting with a 12DW7 in his amp.
> 
> You need to have access to a tube tester to find a lopsided 12AX7.



Ah ok, i was going to pick up a new JJ for my PI slot that was 'matched' from the tubestore when i get the tung sols to play around with, think thats unnecessary? I have a JJ in the PI now, but i have no idea how matched it is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, don't spend extra cash for a matched PI tube.


----------



## GuiltySparc

thanks Marty.


----------



## GuiltySparc

i think i'm going to pick up an RFT to try in V1 rather than two tung sols...


----------



## ken361

12dw7 http://www.tubesandmore.com/


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me know how that RFT sounds in V1. You might have to pair it with a brighter sounding tube in V2. The RFT's tend to be a little on the dark side.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone here ever bought tubes from Canadian sellers on eBay? What's a realistic ship time?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I deal with gameshound and it's about 7 days to get a package from him.


----------



## GuiltySparc

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me know how that RFT sounds in V1. You might have to pair it with a brighter sounding tube in V2. The RFT's tend to be a little on the dark side.



Will do. I have all JJ (new production) in the preamp section now, and they are pretty dark. I'm figuring the tung sol in V2 will probably do the trick. That and the TSL100 is a fairly bright amp anyway.


----------



## RiverRatt

My Canadian Matsushita got here today! Check this beauty out - NOS, D-getter, long plates, NIIIICCCCEEEEE tone.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> My Canadian Matsushita got here today! Check this beauty out - NOS, D-getter, long plates, NIIIICCCCEEEEE tone.



She's be-utiful!

Glad it sounds good too! D getter rules.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What did it cost? Nice tube. I just don't have a market for them myself.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got it for $15. I was actually surprised that I won it. It was one of those that I made the low bid on and forgot about. I'll buy up any of these I run across - they sound as good if not better than any Mullard ECC83 that I've used. The D getters don't turn up often, though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't think you liked Mullards that much. Maybe I was wrong. All I can say is that an NOS tube for $15 beats any deal from the big tube stores.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Look what came in the mail yesterday!!!











Thanks again Marty! Now all I need is a little time to play through these bad boys!


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool, Josh! Let us know what you think about them. Looks like they are both good, strong tubes.

Marty, I don't especially like Mullards. I think the Shitas I have are a little more gritty and have smoother highs, and this is more pronounced with the d-getter long-plate tubes. I'm not putting down the Mules at all. They are fine tubes, just not exactly the tone I'm looking for.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Cool, Josh! Let us know what you think about them. Looks like they are both good, strong tubes...



Will do mate. Rock on!


----------



## solarburn

Happy Thanksgiving guys!

Nice Shitas Josh.


----------



## Moose Lewis

I'm getting ready to acquire an old 4104. Is it safe to assume that if I want a little more drive to the overall sound, I should invest in high gain preamp tubes?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Watt Grinder / Tone Grinder*

Wegman started a thread on this subject over a year ago and it never really got any traction, so being that this is a preamp tube subject, I thought I'd bring it to the table here and see what all my favorite tube junkies have to say on the subject...

*WattGrinder Engineering's ToneGrinder "Tubes for the 21st Century"* 
(... That's their claim, not mine.)
​


wegman said:


> Anyone have any experience with these? Their supposed to be replacements for pre-amp tubes.
> 
> Welcome to WattGrinder Engineering, Inc.





JohnH said:


> I noticed these a few months ago, after Namm. They seem expensive and not very useful. It took many months for tone samples to go up, and only one tube in the preamp is changed, so I dont see the point.



[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URvfywUxWzk&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwV7Jjrvld8&feature=player_embedded[/ame]

And no... I'm not thinking of this as "salvation from the death of tubes" like some folks might think. Rather these just look like an interesting product, that may have a place in guitar amp design and/or maintenance. So... 

... Talk amongst yourselves...


----------



## Moose Lewis

Well... they don't suck. I listened to all of the samples for the Marshall JCM 800 available on their site. They sound good, but seem to lack a touch of 'air' I hear from the real tube... and these are MP3s - which by design have everything cut above 10k already... so I expect I would hear more of a difference in real world live & studio sound. It's also only for the V1 tube.

I can't imagine guys who are concerned with how much a different brand of capacitor may or may not change their sound being interested in these.

Interesting concept though.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Moose Lewis said:


> ... It's also only for the V1 tube...



... Actually, these are supposed to be useful in any 12AX7 spot.

WattGrinder ToneGrinder Amplifier Configurations Marshall


----------



## demonufo

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Actually, these are supposed to be useful in any 12AX7 spot.
> 
> WattGrinder ToneGrinder Amplifier Configurations Marshall



No, not any slot. Look closely at the link you posted.
They are not a viable alternative at all in either of those instances.
Unless they can make one that can be used in all three, I really don't see the point.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

demonufo said:


> No, not any slot. Look closely at the link you posted.
> They are not a viable alternative at all in either of those instances.
> Unless they can make one that can be used in all three, I really don't see the point.



Hmm... Well I could be reading things wrong, but... The configurations link they have listed, I believe, is to demonstrate how some people are using them. It says that somewhere amongst all their jabbering about experimenting and discovering tones our amps are hiding from us an such...

According to their Q&A:



> *Q* _ *What is ToneGrinder?*_
> *A* [FONT=&quot] ToneGrinder is the name of tube device products[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] designed by [/FONT] WattGrinder Engineering, Inc. The
> ToneGrinder 12AX7 is a direct replacement for the
> 12AX7 dual triode vacuum tube.





> *Q* [FONT=&quot] _*Do I need to modify my amp to use ToneGrinders?*_[/FONT]
> *A* [FONT=&quot] No, ToneGrinders are pin for pin compatible with glass[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] vacuum [/FONT] tubes.





> *Q* [FONT=&quot] _*Amps with multiple 12AX7 vacuum tubes, do I*_[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] _*have to use * _[/FONT] _*ToneGrinder 12AX7’s in all 12AX7*_
> _* positions?*_
> *A* [FONT=&quot] No, you can mix ToneGrinder 12AX7’s with your[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] favorite vacuum [/FONT] tubes. It’s all about the tone!
> 
> *Q* [FONT=&quot] _*Can ToneGrinder 12AX7’s be used in equipment*_[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] _ *other than * _[/FONT] _*guitar and bass amplifiers?*_
> *A* [FONT=&quot] Yes, ToneGrinders typically can be used where a[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] vacuum tube [/FONT] is used. For example, they can be used in
> high end home theater equipment and tube based
> microphones.


One small caveat...


> *Q* [FONT=&quot] _*Will ToneGrinders work in any amp?*_[/FONT]
> *A* [FONT=&quot] ToneGrinders have been designed to work wherever a[/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot] 12AX7 is [/FONT] used. It is possible however, that an amplifier
> might have a non-standard or unusual configuration
> which could have unpredictable results.


----------



## Moose Lewis

I don't mean to be argumentative... it's just that their site lists these as the configurations for using their tubes with the amps they have tested, with more configurations to come as they get a chance to test other amps. These are for the Marshalls they have tested:

*Marshall Models and Configurations*

*JCM-800*
V1: Only ToneGrinders from the X100 Series, BX100A/BX100A or GX100A/GX100A or OX100A/OX100A or RX100A/RX100A.
V2: _Vacuum tube_.
V2 (I think they meant V3 here): _Vacuum tube_. 
*
JCM-2000 DSL 100W*
V1: _Vacuum tube_ only.
V2: ToneGrinder RED/RED from the Expanded Output Series.
V3: ToneGrinder RX100A/RX100A from the X100 Series. 
*
JTM-45*
V1: Any ToneGrinder from the the Expanded Output Series, BLUE/BLUE or GREEN/GREEN or ORANGE/ORANGE or RED/RED or any ToneGrinder from the X100 Series, BX100A/BX100A or GX100A/GX100A or OX100A/OX100A or RX100A/RX100A.
V2: _Vacuum tube_.
V3: _Vacuum tube_.​
It appears that a DSL can't effectively use their tube in the V1 slot - note that it says vacuum tube _only_... which seems a bit strange. Maybe _I'm_ reading it wrong - but I did take the time to go through their entire site and soundbites.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hmm... Does seem a bit contradictory then, doesn't it?


----------



## Moose Lewis

Hey - as a player who has had a tube die in the middle of a set during a gig, I would love to find a legitimate alternative to glass and filaments - which is why I rushed to check out the site, videos and soundbites. I ain't breakin' out my credit card... yet.

While it has nothing to do with their product, it bugged me that the videos were almost entirely talk... and when the inventor played his guitar in OD mode through his Mesa, it sounded like a cheap fuzz box to me. Not particularly inspired advertising.

... but now I'm just picking.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

At this point, they pretty much just have hit the curiosity button for me. I'm not ready to open my pocket book up just yet. Not while theres still plenty of good tubes to be had at a fraction of what they want for these things.



Moose Lewis said:


> Hey - as a player who has had a tube die in the middle of a set during a gig, I would love to find a legitimate alternative to glass and filaments - which is why I rushed to check out the site, videos and soundbites. I ain't breakin' out my credit card... yet.
> 
> While it has nothing to do with their product, it bugged me that the videos were almost entirely talk... and when the inventor played his guitar in OD mode through his Mesa, it sounded like a cheap fuzz box to me. Not particularly inspired advertising.
> 
> ... but now I'm just picking.



To their credit, the demos sound better than their youtube videos...


----------



## RiverRatt

I guess I'm missing the concept. Why would someone put up with the upkeep and maintenance of an all-tube amp and then change it to solid-state?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I guess I'm missing the concept. Why would someone put up with the upkeep and maintenance of an all-tube amp and then change it to solid-state?



An excellent question.

... Perhaps if tubes actually did become extinct (I think I'll take my chances on this one), or if these actually did sound "superior" to actual valves... But, no... I'm not convinced of that either. Like I said, I'm curious, but that's about it at this point.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

If solid state sounded better than tubes, than people would be shelling out thousands on them and tube amps would be a dime a dozen, not the other way around.


----------



## Moose Lewis

joshuaaewallen said:


> If solid state sounded better than tubes, than people would be shelling out thousands on them and tube amps would be a dime a dozen, not the other way around.



Are you thinking what I'm thinking? _Mass hypnosis!_ Temporarily convince everyone that SS is better until we can buy up all the tube amps for a song. When they wake up - we will rule the world!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Brilliant!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Not only do I live Pinky & The Brain, but I think you might just be on to something there!


----------



## ckr1231

I have a peavey 6505+ it is run into a Peavey 4x12 Sheffield slant cab. Yeah, I know, get a TSL or DSL and I will after Christmas and kids birthdays ect. I bought a Marshall MA and returned it a week later. But, that is a different story.
So,I wanted to change the tubes in the 6505+ as they where sounding very harsh. They where the Ruby 12AX7 tubes. I replaced them like this V1-GT 12ax7 gold series, V2-GT12ax7 gold series, V3- Ruby 12ax7, V4- GT 12ax7 Gold series and V5- EH 12ax7russia. I now have the tone I have been looking for but the amp is so hot I can barely hold the back of my finger on the face of the control panel. The whole face of the control panel is this hot. This amp has always run hot but man this just seems to damn hot. It is a fixed biased amp. I need advice on what is going on here.
Please advise !!!!
Thank You


----------



## CAPDUNN

You may need to do the bias mod.


----------



## ckr1231

How do I go about learning how to do that or should I have it done ? I am an electrician and I understand the basics but I have no experience with that.
Is there a solution to this other than the bias mod?
Please advise
Thank you


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you mean that you can put power tubes in without having to bias, that is called a cathode biased amp. An amp that you adjust the bias is called a fixed bias amp.

You could have a set of tubes that are passing too much current. Since you can't adjust the "idle current" these tubes are probably the reason for the heat. Have you noticed if the power tubes are red plating when you play?

You might want to order a cold set of tubes. Generally on a cathode biased amp, the tubes are running at around 60 percent dissipation.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty have you got any new tubes in? Just doing my random check in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> An excellent question.
> 
> ... Perhaps if tubes actually did become extinct (I think I'll take my chances on this one), or if these actually did sound "superior" to actual valves... But, no... I'm not convinced of that either. Like I said, I'm curious, but that's about it at this point.



These (like most tube related items) were discussed here on the forum and this thread before. They are not the end all, be all replacements for our beloved vacuum tubes. And you guys are right. All they did was convert the working principles of a vacuum tube into a solid state device. While "some" of these metal "cans" can replace certain 12AX7 functions, you are taking away everything you like about tubes and throwing it to the wind. 12AX7's like any audio tube distorts softly (and this is what us guitarist's want). 

If you are considering these, then it is time to sell the tube amp and go into a different direction.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Marty have you got any new tubes in? Just doing my random check in.



Yeah, I have some nice V1's and V2's. What all do you have now for a V1?


----------



## BluesRocker

Umm.. Depends on my mood. In the Soldano I have the Telefunken. In the VM I have the Philips EH.

I still have the EI, RFT, the Med. Philips in the Soldano too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm waiting on my tube tester to get back. Might be here on Friday. I have some tubes that came in that are supposedly "hot" for V1, but I want to test them myself. Give me the weekend and then I will know better about how these tubes test on my gear.

(Good news Alan. Your Compactron didn't mess up my tester...but I wanted to make sure.)


----------



## BluesRocker

Sounds good.. I missed out on the Miniwatts you had. I meant to get a couple then got busy with work and stuff. Darn. Oh well....


----------



## thetragichero

bought a passive AB box from electroharmix
filled out the warranty card and they had a spot for product suggestions
told them to make a 12AX7 that doesn't suck.... let's hope they listen to me...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> (Good news Alan. Your Compactron didn't mess up my tester...but I wanted to make sure.)



Glad she's OK.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Ok chaps I had the urge to photo all my valves (tubes to our American brothers  ), but first a little background.

In my DSL 100 Im currently running a NOS raytheon blackplate in V1 (that I scored of Ebay for a whopping sum of £5!), a longplate Mullard in V2 and Wurlitzer branded GE Longplate in V3 and an RFT in V4. Im more than happy with this set up, I tried the Mullard in V1 and the Raytheon in V2 but there is just more focused bite with the Raythen on V1. So given that im liking this particular lineup ive made sure i have enough reserves to repeat this a good few times before i pop my clogs! plus a few others ive picked up along the way, which tbh all sound good to me!

So first up my 3 spare Raytheons.






Next up are my Brimars, in fact the Mullard im running in V2 is labelled brimar but has a blackburn code on it.











Here are my colection of USA V3 placement valves.






The RFTs, most of these ive paid around £5 for, in fact got one today for the princley sum of £2.95!






Various Philips ones, including a couple of Valvos.






My slant getter Matsushitas






More Philips ones, this time Bel made, ive included the blue marked one as it has the same wobbly internals as a Bel.






My Telefunkens, 2 of which are Dynaco branded, these are great valves but at the moment im preferring the Raytheons 






And last but not least, my Ei made smooth plates, Hoges and a Westinghouse branded one (had a pair but sold one on) 







Hope you all enjoy the pics :cool2:


----------



## solarburn

Wow! That's some nice tube porn. I have some from each row up there including the BEL's. I don't have any Brimar 12AX7's though. Just an AT7 Black plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sweet, sweet selection of tubes. I knew you had some good one's. I really like that stash of Brimar's.


----------



## RiverRatt

How are you liking that JRP Raytheon (the one with orange writing)? IMO those are a different animal than the regular Raytheon black plates. Every one I've had is really high-gain, almost too much. I had a pair of those in V1 and V2 in the DSL at one time. It was pretty intense.


----------



## MM54

Nice stash!


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Sounds good.. I missed out on the Miniwatts you had. I meant to get a couple then got busy with work and stuff. Darn. Oh well....



PM sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I got a couple of tubes from this guy who said they were both smooth plate Telefunkens. Am I bad. I waited a while before looking at them. Here are the pictures.











The long smooth plate is a Telefunken and has the <> on the bottom. The ribbed short plate has the shiny silver bracing (that runs through the plates). It also has a double post halo getter. Is this an S and H tube? Siemens and Halske. It says made in W. Germany. Or could it be a relabeled Valvo? I haven't seen the bright, shiny bracing before. (The bracing is sticking out at the top with cut, angled "ears." It is one piece that runs from the top mica to the bottom mica.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked on Tube Monger. It's a short plate, double post getter, S and H tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

big dooley said:


> maybe the mods like to make this a sticky?
> coming from the dutch importer of marshalls
> these are the codes printed on stock marshall tubes with a description what brand or type they actually are... the list is not entirely complete, but covers a lot of the actual tubes being used by uncle jim today
> 
> VLVE-00007 12AT7/ECC81 No selection White Logo
> VLVE-00009 12AU7/ECC82 No selection White Logo
> VLVE-00010 EL34 Svetlana
> VLVE-00033 SV6550C Svetlana White Logo
> VLVE-00038 6V6GT Shuguang White Logo
> VLVE-00039 KT66 Shuguang White Logo
> VLVE-00042 EL34B Shuguang Gold Logo
> VLVE-00047 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang Low Microphony Gold Logo
> VLVE-00049 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang High Microphony Gold Logo
> VLVE-00055 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang No Selection White logo
> VLVE-00063 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang A Low Microphony White Logo
> VLVE-00064 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang B Low Microphony White Logo
> VLVE-00065 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang Gain Selected >=4V White Logo
> VLVE-00066 ECC83S JJ Low Microphony Red Logo
> VLVE-00066S ECC83S Microphonic Selection A
> VLVE-00067 ECC83S JJ Low Microphony Red Logo
> VLVE-00067S ECC83S Microphonic Selection A
> VLVE-00068 EL84 JJ Graded Low Anode Current Red Logo
> VLVE-00069 EL84 JJ Graded High Anode Current Red Logo
> VLVE-00070 EL34 JJ Graded Anode Current Red Logo
> VLVE-00071 EZ81 JJ No selection Red Logo
> VLVE-00077 KT66 Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo
> VLVE-00080 KT88 Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo
> VLVE-00083 5881/6L6WGC Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo replaces VLVE-00006
> VLVE-00087 EL34B Shuguang Graded Anode Current White Logo
> VLVE-00088 GZ34/5AR4 JJ No selection Red Logo Replaces VLVE-10043


.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I looked on Tube Monger. It's a short plate, double post getter, S and H tube.



Yeah, it looks identical to my S&H. Does it have the factory code on it? Mine did.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On this tube, everything is worn off except, "Made In W. Germany." All my other S and H tubes are smooth long plates that look a lot like a Telefunken. I guess I never had a real S and H short plate. (Funny that the guy sold it as a smooth plate Tele.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wanted you to know that I dug out those tubes that are labeled as Telefunkens without the <> on the bottoms. If you remember, I just quickly shrugged them off as RFT's. Well they are Ei's. I rather have an Ei than an RFT anyways. 

I've reached the conclusion that Ei made a shitload of tubes for various European and American manufacturers. They must have really been pumping them out after 1975.

Also, I looked back on those NOS/NIB RCA/Mullards. Those were Ei's as well. I think I need better glasses. The difference is that the Mullards say, "Made in Gt. Britain" and the Ei's say, "Gt. Britain." Sneaky, huh?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> How are you liking that JRP Raytheon (the one with orange writing)? IMO those are a different animal than the regular Raytheon black plates. Every one I've had is really high-gain, almost too much. I had a pair of those in V1 and V2 in the DSL at one time. It was pretty intense.



I have one of those in V1 now and to me it was the stand out Valve from everything else, both clean and overdriven it delivers a fabulous sound. The one I have in has a different logo to the one in the picture, it has a stretched logo, like the Cinemascope logo used to be, rememebr that? Any idea what the difference between CRP and JRP? Maybe a different Armed force used them? Say Navy rather then Army? Just a guess.

RAYTHEON

or like this I can't remember!

RAYTHEON

Hah I just found a picture, this is the one i got for £5, NOS JAN CRP Raytheon blackplate and no one else spotted it so i got it for its opening price! I was shaking like a leaf as i placed my bid at the last second lol


----------



## xrlnt6

has anybody tried mesa boogie pre tubes in there marshall?
and why are they so damn expensive?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wanted you to know that I dug out those tubes that are labeled as Telefunkens without the <> on the bottoms. If you remember, I just quickly shrugged them off as RFT's. Well they are Ei's. I rather have an Ei than an RFT anyways.
> 
> I've reached the conclusion that Ei made a shitload of tubes for various European and American manufacturers. They must have really been pumping them out after 1975.
> 
> Also, I looked back on those NOS/NIB RCA/Mullards. Those were Ei's as well. I think I need better glasses. The difference is that the Mullards say, "Made in Gt. Britain" and the Ei's say, "Gt. Britain." Sneaky, huh?



So Marty, are these Ei's then?

Smooth Plate Tele:





RCA:





Tube I.D. still isn't my strong suit...


----------



## ken361

xrlnt6 said:


> has anybody tried mesa boogie pre tubes in there marshall?
> and why are they so damn expensive?



rebranded JJ tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I have one of those in V1 now and to me it was the stand out Valve from everything else, both clean and overdriven it delivers a fabulous sound. The one I have in has a different logo to the one in the picture, it has a stretched logo, like the Cinemascope logo used to be, rememebr that? Any idea what the difference between CRP and JRP? Maybe a different Armed force used them? Say Navy rather then Army? Just a guess.



That's a new one. All I know for sure is that JAN stand for Joint Army-Navy. I've never heard a definition of JRP or CRP.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> That's a new one. All I know for sure is that JAN stand for Joint Army-Navy. I've never heard a definition of JRP or CRP.



Just found this,

Several U. S. manufacturers made acorn types, particularly 955s, during WW II. As a result, most tubes found today are ex-military, and carry Joint Army-Navy (JAN) designations in either a long form or an abbreviated version ahead of the tube type number. The known makers are: GE (JAN-CG or JG); Hytron (JAN-CHY or JHY); Raytheon (JAN-CRP or JRP); RCA (JAN-CRC or JRC); Sonotone (JAN-COZ or JOZ); Tung-Sol (JAN-CTL or JTL); Westinghouse (JAN-CWL or JWL).

So they are just codes to let you know the manufacturer, in this cas CRP and JRP belong to Raytheon.

from this site

OTB - The Vacuum Tube, The Acorn Tube


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> These (like most tube related items) were discussed here on the forum and this thread before. They are not the end all, be all replacements for our beloved vacuum tubes. And you guys are right. All they did was convert the working principles of a vacuum tube into a solid state device. While "some" of these metal "cans" can replace certain 12AX7 functions, you are taking away everything you like about tubes and throwing it to the wind. 12AX7's like any audio tube distorts softly (and this is what us guitarist's want).
> 
> If you are considering these, then it is time to sell the tube amp and go into a different direction.



Other than one other thread w/ only two posts I really didn't find much on the subject. Either way... I couldn't agree w/ you more. Why make my tube amp solid state? Ain't gonna happen. 'Nuff said. I was just curious about 'em, that's all.


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just found this,
> 
> Several U. S. manufacturers made acorn types, particularly 955s, during WW II. As a result, most tubes found today are ex-military, and carry Joint Army-Navy (JAN) designations in either a long form or an abbreviated version ahead of the tube type number. The known makers are: GE (JAN-CG or JG); Hytron (JAN-CHY or JHY); Raytheon (JAN-CRP or JRP); RCA (JAN-CRC or JRC); Sonotone (JAN-COZ or JOZ); Tung-Sol (JAN-CTL or JTL); Westinghouse (JAN-CWL or JWL).
> 
> So they are just codes to let you know the manufacturer, in this cas CRP and JRP belong to Raytheon.
> 
> from this site
> 
> OTB - The Vacuum Tube, The Acorn Tube



That's good info. Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Preamp Tubes? - A Useful Contribution?*

Hi guys! I haven't really changed my preamp line up in quite some time, so I really haven't had a ton to say lately, but...

After reading Alan & Joe's constant rave reviews about Matsushita tubes, I decided to buy a couple off my good man Marty and have a go at them. Yesterday I finally had a chance to put in a little time on the first one, so I thought I'd give ya the full report. So... 

The testing here was done on my Wilder modded TSL100, and recorded direct to my PC via the Emulated Line Out on the back of my amp strait into the mic input on my computer. For the sake of comparison I kept all my amp settings the same in each recording, and recorded two samples for each channel of my amp in each pickup position on my guitar. 
______________________________________________________________

*~**~**~* *~*
*
The Tubes:*
The tube line up in the amp are as follows:

V2:




V3:





V4:





The "shootout" is in the V1 slot between my beloved Telefunken Smooth Plate (22-24 on Marty's tester): 





... And the Matsushita Slant Gletter (26-27 on Marty's tester) that I just got in the mail (again, tip o' the cap to Marty):





*The Amp:*
*



*

*The Guitar:*




​ ______________________________________________________________

I just ran everything on the same basic settings I had been using for the past God-Knows-How-Long...​


> *Clean:*
> Gain - 3
> Volume - 4
> Midboost Button - Out
> Treble - 5.2
> Middle - 2
> Bass - 9
> *Crunch:*
> Gain - 4
> Volume - 3
> ToneShift - Out
> Deep Switch - Out
> Treble - 3
> Middle - 10
> Bass - 9.2
> *Lead:*
> Gain - 10
> Volume - 2.2
> ToneShift - Out
> Deep Switch - Out
> Treble - 6
> Middle - 6
> Bass - 9
> *Global Controls:*
> VPR (Virtual Power Reduction) - On
> *Crunch/Lead:*
> Reverb - 3
> Fx - 10 (little delay)
> Presence - 3
> *Clean:*
> Reverb - 6
> Fx - 10 (little delay)
> Presence - 4
> 
> Oh... And everything was played through my PRS Custom 24 (Duncan Alnico II bridge Pickup & Sustainiac Stealth Pro Neck Pickup) w/ the volume knob set on 10.​


Whew! It took a lot to get to this point! Well... It's all for the sake of documentation. Now you know how everything was set, so here's the comparison:

*~*  *~*  *~* *~*​ 
*Clean Channel:*
Telefunken Clean Bridge Position
 Matsushita Clean Bridge Position

 Telefunken Clean Bridge/Middle Position
 Matsushita Clean Bridge/Middle Position

 Telefunken Clean Middle Position
 Matsushita Clean Middle Position

 Telefunken Clean Middle/Neck Position
 Matsushita Clean Middle/Neck Position

 Telefunken Clean Neck Position
 Matsushita Clean Neck Position

*Crunch **Channel:*
 Telefunken Crunch Bridge Position
 Matsushita Crunch Bridge Position

 Telefunken Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
 Matsushita Crunch Bridge/Middle Position

 Telefunken Crunch Middle Position
 Matsushita Crunch Middle Position

 Telefunken Crunch Middle/Neck Position
 Matsushita Crunch Middle/Neck Position

 Telefunken Crunch Neck Position
 Matsushita Crunch Neck Position

*Lead Channel:*
Telefunken Lead Bridge Position
 Matsushita Lead Bridge Position

 Telefunken Lead Bridge/Middle Position
 Matsushita Lead Bridge/Middle Position

 Telefunken Lead Middle Position
 Matsushita Lead Middle Position

 Telefunken Lead Middle/Neck Position
 Matsushita Lead Middle/Neck Position

 Telefunken Lead Neck Position
 Matsushita Lead Neck Position

*~*  *~*  *~* *~*​ ​ 
Alrighty then... Barring any severe goof-ups... How was that? In terms of demo/comparisons, what did you like, what did you not like, and what would you like to see for future comparisons? Seriously, this was fun, so... Just give a shout out, gimme the specifics, and I'll make it happen.

Rock on guys!​


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the Matsushita seems to be a little fuller and warmer than the Tele on all the clips. It almost sounds like you're pushing the amp a little harder with the Shita. Both sound good, I just like the emphasis more on the lows & low mids. The tele has plenty of sparkle, just not as much bottom IMO.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I think the Matsushita seems to be a little fuller and warmer than the Tele on all the clips. It almost sounds like you're pushing the amp a little harder with the Shita. Both sound good, I just like the emphasis more on the lows & low mids. The tele has plenty of sparkle, just not as much bottom IMO.



I'm not 100% sure yet. I find nothing unpleasing about the Matsushita. I actually quite liked it. I think what I may do is leave it in for a while and play with it. "Get to know it. Become friends with it", so to speak...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh, your Tele is real. I had some other Tele branded tubes that were Ei's. However, the RCA marked with an "M" on the box is an Ei. Look at it. Does it have smooth plates? If so, it's an Ei. Still a great tube and some consider them to be a top five tube.

Are you using the RCA in the PI? It's pretty stout for a gain stage tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh, your Tele is real. I had some other Tele branded tubes that were Ei's. However, the RCA marked with an "M" on the box is an Ei. Look at it. Does it have smooth plates? If so, it's an Ei. Still a great tube and some consider them to be a top five tube.
> 
> Are you using the RCA in the PI? It's pretty stout for a gain stage tube.



Them plates are smoother'n a baby's bum, so then it'd be an Ei, which is totally fine by me as it's a phenominal V1 tube. Between the Tele for V1 and the RCA inV4 you've got two of the mainstays of my line up for a looooong time now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad to hear that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This thread is getting a little dusty. Where is everybody?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I've been around... Periodically.

Today I auditioned a few more tubes (same format as my previous post), but I haven't been able to get out to the coffee shop to upload them onto the internet as of yet (I'm doing this from my phone at the moment)... 

Coming up later: 

Two GE's (a 21-21 and a 30-30), an RCA that I call "The Dead Horse" (it's an 18-16), and an EICO (30-30)(remember that one? made in holland by people wearing wooden shoes...?)

Hopefully I'll be able to post those tomorrow. Just debating on whether to do it here, or create a thread over in The Tone Zone...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I mean... At over 7,200 posts and at 181 pages... It can be a bit daunting to sort through...


----------



## thrawn86

Still around too. Just have nothing of value to add, other than you know your stuff as always, Marty.  And Josh: Nice comparison work. When I get more time I'll have to delve into that whole thing.


----------



## thetragichero

i've been working on converting the studio from digital four track to a protools setup. and just plain working to support my GAS.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got back from taking the kids to Memphis to see "A Day to Remember" on Beale Street. I did manage to duck into Guitar Center and pick up a new head.


----------



## BluesRocker

What did you get Alan?

I miss Beale St. BTW.. Went down there a few times last year.. I love it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't miss it that much... I'm getting too old to come dragging in at 2 a.m. Sunday night isn't exactly the most happening time, either. I used to like to go to the Rum Boogie back when Little Milton was playing there, which probably tells you how out-of-date I am!

I ended up bringing home a Jet City JCA20H. The little Egnater Tweaker might be a fun toy, but honestly it felt cheap and I needed something to take out and play. The Jet City seemed to fit the bill. My second choice was a Vox AC15C1 but I didn't really want a combo amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

How does the Jet City sound?? I have always wanted to try one out. Specially the 100 watt one. It is supposed to be modeled after the Soldano SLO100


----------



## RiverRatt

Give me a couple of days and I'll give a full report. I haven't even unboxed it yet, and may not be able to until tomorrow. I've got a lot going on for the next few weeks. I'm hoping I get home early enough tomorrow evening as the wife will be out of the house for a few hours. The kids don't seem to mind as much.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Give me a couple of days and I'll give a full report. I haven't even unboxed it yet, and may not be able to until tomorrow. I've got a lot going on for the next few weeks. I'm hoping I get home early enough tomorrow evening as the wife will be out of the house for a few hours. The kids don't seem to mind as much.



I got to spend some quality time w/ the little Jet City in the "quiet room" at GC this past weekend. Of the small amps they had it was one of the more enjoyable amps there.


----------



## RiverRatt

I probably should have done that. My ears are about shot - I can't even tune a guitar with all the background noise in that place. I guess I need to start carrying a stage tuner with me when I go there. One of the crew had left a 2-story stepladder sitting right in front of the small amp display, too. They didn't even offer to move it after I whanged the headstock of an Epi LP off it a few times. Just one more reason why I never buy floor models!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Remind me not to buy anything in GC after you have been in the store.


----------



## RiverRatt

You ever tried playing under a step ladder? I'm usually really careful with gear but this was just crazy. Besides, it was just an Epi.

Now the real question - will this thing take NOS tubes well, or is it "voiced" for cheap Chinese tubes? More to come on that subject.


----------



## Moose Lewis

I've run into the same situation before... I'd just move the ladder like I owned the place.
_
The customer is always right._


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'm curious what your thoughts are on that Jet City Alan. Keep us posted.

... Especially after you start rolling some good tubes in it!


----------



## thetragichero

finally getting my dsl back someday between thursday and saturday
excited to get back to using a 100 watt amp... at the moment i have the 5e3 and picovalve both hooked up to the delay pedal.... it's decently loud but still a ghetto setup

warming up to the picovalve... i've been so back and forth on it, but i think having three amps of different loudnesses will be a good thing
got rft or matsushita in V1 and raytheon black plate in V2, and one of the 6L6 alan sent me (not quite sure which ones since i screwed the cover on)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thetragichero said:


> finally getting my dsl back someday between thursday and saturday
> excited to get back to using a 100 watt amp... at the moment i have the 5e3 and picovalve both hooked up to the delay pedal.... it's decently loud but still a ghetto setup
> 
> warming up to the picovalve... i've been so back and forth on it, but i think having three amps of different loudnesses will be a good thing
> got rft or matsushita in V1 and raytheon black plate in V2, and one of the 6L6 alan sent me (not quite sure which ones since i screwed the cover on)



I think I was asleep at the switch... Why has your DSL been gone?


----------



## thetragichero

new filter caps, plus i'd get that rare problem of the volume randomly fading and going silent, usually for no rhyme or reason: i could play for four hours and it would be fine or it would do it in the first five minutes
had him check for cold solder joints
also i've gone on two vacations since i dropped it off, so i've been preoccupied


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Ok... Same settings as before... Same riffs as before... 

But with a few more tubes to compare...




joshuaaewallen said:


> joshuaaewallen said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Clean Channel:*
> Telefunken Clean Bridge Position
> Matsushita Clean Bridge Position
> RCA 18-16 Clean Bridge Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Clean Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Bridge Position
> 
> Telefunken Clean Bridge/Middle Position
> Matsushita Clean Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Clean Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Clean Bridge/Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Bridge/Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Clean Middle Position
> Matsushita Clean Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Clean Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Clean Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Clean Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Clean Middle/Neck Position
> Matsushita Clean Middle/Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Clean Middle/Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Clean Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Clean Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Middle/Neck Position
> 
> Telefunken Clean Neck Position
> Matsushita Clean Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Clean Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Clean Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Clean Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Clean Neck Position
> 
> *Crunch **Channel:*
> Telefunken Crunch Bridge Position
> Matsushita Crunch Bridge Position
> RCA 18-16 Crunch Bridge Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Crunch Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Crunch Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Crunch Bridge Position
> 
> Telefunken Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> Matsushita Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Crunch Bridge/Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Crunch Middle Position
> Matsushita Crunch Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Crunch Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Crunch Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Crunch Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Crunch Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> Matsushita Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Crunch Middle/Neck Position
> 
> Telefunken Crunch Neck Position
> Matsushita Crunch Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Crunch Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Crunch Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Crunch Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Crunch Neck Position
> 
> *Lead Channel:*
> Telefunken Lead Bridge Position
> Matsushita Lead Bridge Position
> RCA 18-16 Lead Bridge Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Lead Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Lead Bridge Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Lead Bridge Position
> 
> Telefunken Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> Matsushita Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Lead Bridge/Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Lead Middle Position
> Matsushita Lead Middle Position
> RCA 18-16 Lead Middle Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Lead Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Lead Middle Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Lead Middle Position
> 
> Telefunken Lead Middle/Neck Position
> Matsushita Lead Middle/Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Lead Middle/Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Lead Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Lead Middle/Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Lead Middle/Neck Position
> 
> Telefunken Lead Neck Position
> Matsushita Lead Neck Position
> RCA 18-16 Lead Neck Position
> RCA/EICO 12AX7 ECC83 30-30 Made In Holland Lead Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 30-30 Lead Neck Position
> GE 12AX7 (that I pulled from an old Hi-Fi) 21-21 Lead Neck Position
> 
> *~*  *~*  *~* *~*
Click to expand...


That outta keep ya'll busy fer a bit! 

G'night!


----------



## MM54

Too... many... links!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Too... many... links!


 


..Yeah... Sorry about that mate... Would it be better if I recorded just one link per channel (clean, crunch, and lead) and cycled through the pickup options in the same recording?

I'm just trying to give as direct a comparison as possible between the different tubes...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thetragichero said:


> ... plus i'd get that rare problem of the volume randomly fading and going silent, usually for no rhyme or reason: i could play for four hours and it would be fine or it would do it in the first five minutes...



That's what the Lil' Night Train I was playing at GC last weekend was doing... Only it would do it every 30-60 seconds... Craziness.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'm curious what your thoughts are on that Jet City Alan. Keep us posted.
> 
> ... Especially after you start rolling some good tubes in it!



So far I've just played it at low volume with the Les Paul, but I like it. It has a lot of useful tones to it, and it cleans up very well, too. GREAT overdrive and crunch - if you don't like mids, this ain't the amp for you. 

I couldn't get Fender cleans out of it, but it sits firmly in Marshall and Vox territory. The presence control is just over-the-top. I hardly ever touch the presence on my Marshall, but on this amp it's actually useful. 

First impressions are that I made the right choice. The EL84s are much more defined than 6V6s and the amp retains its character even with the gain dimed. Tomorrow night (if I get home early enough) I'm going to crank it up awhile and see what it'll do. I also want to run the strat through it and see how it takes single-coils. 

I want to get a good feel for its tone before I start changing tubes around. I'm planning to try the proven Tele/Raytheon V1 and V2 combo, and that pair of 6P14Ps is waiting in the wings


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> That's what the Lil' Night Train I was playing at GC last weekend was doing... Only it would do it every 30-60 seconds... Craziness.



What did you think about that little dude? Talk about miniature heads - that thing looked like a bar of soap with tubes and knobs on it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

WANTED​
Hey guys, question for ya... I've got these CP tubes:






... And I was thinking I'd like to do some direct comparisons between these and their NOS predecessors, and record & share the results on the forum... Marty is unable to hook me up on these, so I'm just wondering if y'all could do me a favor and keep me posted if ya happen to stumble on any tubes that might fit the bill for this little experiment... I'd really appreciate it. Thanks you guys, and have a great night!


----------



## Moose Lewis

Question: _Why_ an unbalanced PI tube? 

I know this has been covered (and I've ordered one on faith); but it just isn't sinking into my thick moose cranium.

How does it affect tone/sound and why? How is that specifically better?

Just seeking a little clarity to satisfy curiosity. Meow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A guitar amp is unbalanced by design. Therefore, "even" if you put a balanced tube in the PI, the signal coming from the power tubes will be somewhat asymmetrical. Now if you use an unbalanced PI tube, the sine wave is even more asymmetrical. The more asymmetrical the signal, the richer it will be in even order harmonics.

Now some people will run a 12DW7 as a PI tube (generally for harmonica amplifiers). This is about as lopsided as you can go. The 12DW7 may or may not be your cup of tea. 

Anyhow, this is what is going on when you use lopsided PI tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> What did you think about that little dude? Talk about miniature heads - that thing looked like a bar of soap with tubes and knobs on it.



Bar of soap. That's not too far off size-wise. It literally is about the size of a 6-10 pack of soap ya'd buy at costco or sam's club! 

Ya know... I should have had them dig up a working model to play. From the 45 second bursts of playtime I could get out of seemed really promising. I was playing it (if I recall correctly) on the 1 watt setting, and I was digging it. It wasn't a "high gain" tone by any means, but it had some great classic rock potential. Next time I get a chance I'd like to try it through a 12" speaker instead of the 10...

I guess if I had to give short review I'd simply offer one word. Potential.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Moose Lewis said:


> I know this has been covered (and I've ordered one on faith); but it just isn't sinking into my thick moose cranium.



You haven't received that tube yet? Let me know if it doesn't make it by Tuesday.


----------



## Moose Lewis

Nope. Not yet.

Hey ~ what, specifically am I to avoid making contact with when putting in preamp tubes - the big blue things? I'm no tech, and I ain't kiddin'.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> A guitar amp is unbalanced by design. Therefore, "even" if you put a balanced tube in the PI, the signal coming from the power tubes will be somewhat asymmetrical. Now if you use an unbalanced PI tube, the sine wave is even more asymmetrical. The more asymmetrical the signal, the richer it will be in even order harmonics.
> 
> Now some people will run a 12DW7 as a PI tube (generally for harmonica amplifiers). This is about as lopsided as you can go. The 12DW7 may or may not be your cup of tea.
> 
> Anyhow, this is what is going on when you use lopsided PI tubes.



Here's a dumb question... What are "even order harmonics"? What do they sound like? Are there any examples of guitar tones that are rich in even order harmonics?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> WANTED​
> Hey guys, question for ya... I've got these CP tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... And I was thinking I'd like to do some direct comparisons between these and their NOS predecessors, and record & share the results on the forum... Marty is unable to hook me up on these, so I'm just wondering if y'all could do me a favor and keep me posted if ya happen to stumble on any tubes that might fit the bill for this little experiment... I'd really appreciate it. Thanks you guys, and have a great night!



What identifying characteristics should I look for to verify that I am actually buying a NOS Mullard 12Ax7 or a NOS Tung-sol?

Search Results

Search Results


----------



## Moose Lewis

Owp! Hey Marty! Seems that I got the PI tube today after all.

I take care of my Pop, who is 87. He doesn't walk so good, but he can drive like a madman. I usually check the mail, because the box is too far from the house and too near the street. He took a spin today and told me he checked the mail, and there wasn't any. Should have looked myself. Found it when I took out the trash tonight.

I'll plug 'er in later today when the Sun is up. Yee-haaa!
Cheers


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh-Read this page. 2nd vs. 3rd order harmonics


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> WANTED​
> Hey guys, question for ya... I've got these CP tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... And I was thinking I'd like to do some direct comparisons between these and their NOS predecessors, and record & share the results on the forum... Marty is unable to hook me up on these, so I'm just wondering if y'all could do me a favor and keep me posted if ya happen to stumble on any tubes that might fit the bill for this little experiment... I'd really appreciate it. Thanks you guys, and have a great night!



I have a Zenith-labeled Tung-Sol 12AX7 (maybe 12AX7A? I don't remember). I'm not sure what it tests at. If you want me to check it out, let me know, it's in the PI of the ML100 right now  I have plenty of other good PI tubes, it just happened to be chosen from the lot.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I have a Zenith-labeled Tung-Sol 12AX7 (maybe 12AX7A? I don't remember). I'm not sure what it tests at. If you want me to check it out, let me know, it's in the PI of the ML100 right now  I have plenty of other good PI tubes, it just happened to be chosen from the lot.



For sure mate. Color me interested!   Should I PM you about it?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh-Read this page. 2nd vs. 3rd order harmonics


 that's a lot to digest for someone with my lack of technical know-how... But each time I reread the page there come a few new slivers of things that kinda start to make sense in my brain... I think I better read that at least a.few more times though... Thanks Marty!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Moose Lewis said:


> I don't mean to be argumentative... it's just that their site lists these as the configurations for using their tubes with the amps they have tested, with more configurations to come as they get a chance to test other amps. These are for the Marshalls they have tested:
> 
> *Marshall Models and Configurations*
> 
> *JCM-800*
> V1: Only ToneGrinders from the X100 Series, BX100A/BX100A or GX100A/GX100A or OX100A/OX100A or RX100A/RX100A.
> V2: _Vacuum tube_.
> V2 (I think they meant V3 here): _Vacuum tube_.
> *
> JCM-2000 DSL 100W*
> V1: _Vacuum tube_ only.
> V2: ToneGrinder RED/RED from the Expanded Output Series.
> V3: ToneGrinder RX100A/RX100A from the X100 Series.
> *
> JTM-45*
> V1: Any ToneGrinder from the the Expanded Output Series, BLUE/BLUE or GREEN/GREEN or ORANGE/ORANGE or RED/RED or any ToneGrinder from the X100 Series, BX100A/BX100A or GX100A/GX100A or OX100A/OX100A or RX100A/RX100A.
> V2: _Vacuum tube_.
> V3: _Vacuum tube_.​
> It appears that a DSL can't effectively use their tube in the V1 slot - note that it says vacuum tube _only_... which seems a bit strange. Maybe _I'm_ reading it wrong - but I did take the time to go through their entire site and soundbites.



Everybody's favorite topic... Hey... It was driving me nuts (crazy for a guy who really digs real tubes to wanna get the skinny on a "tube-substitute") so I emailed the guys at TubeGrinder. Here's what I got back...


> Hi Joshua,
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to review the WattGrinder products.
> 
> It's true that the various models of ToneGrinders today are 12AX7 devices. I have others that I am trying to finish but not quite ready.
> 
> You can use the ToneGrinders in any position that has a 12AX7 vacuum tube. What we have found is every amp is different on how it performs when these are installed. The ToneGrinders are very efficient devices and sometimes it allows to much signal to pass down the signal path of the amp and can overdrive the next stages. So the configuration page we put up are actual installs that worked best for those model amps by combining ToneGrinder with some vacuum tubes.
> 
> It's like all tubes, pedals, strings, pickups, etc., you have to experiment to find the best combination for you. We recommend that ToneGrinder be put in V1 first then move or add more to hear the different results.
> 
> Also we have reduced the price on all ToneGrinder products since the NAMM '09 introduction. Standard models from either the Expanded Output Series (EOS) or the X100 Series are now $89.00 each.
> 
> If you want to try them, a single ToneGrinder would be $89.00 however, if you want to try a set which would be 4 tubes, the price would be $75.00 each and you can mix and match any of the ToneGrinders from either Series, not a bad deal.
> 
> 
> We are selling the products from the factory. If you would like to purchase you can call (707) 778-1155 or email and we can help you with your order.
> 
> Hope this info helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Darryl



...$89 each? Whew! A guy can still get some high-class glass for plenty less than that... 

Anyhoo... I just figured I'd share.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

*Re: Tubes? What? I wanna talk recording...*

I picked up some new toys on Black Friday... Still haven't even taken them outta the boxes yet, but... I will. Oh yes... I will! So... Still wrapping my head around the whole recording thing. Looking at what I've got, do ya'll have any suggestions to offer that might make my recording aspirations go a bit more smoothly?


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool, dude. I picked up similar items on Cyber Monday, whatever in the hell that is. Post some results when you get it up and running.


----------



## Moose Lewis

I got to pop the unbalanced high gain PI into the 4104 today. Played it for a good while before to get a feel, then again afterwards without changing the settings (no pedals).

Wasn't the radical difference made with the high gain V1, but seemed overall 'thicker'. Sustained overtones and harmonic feedback were an easier reach. This amp is really starting to warm up nicely. I think the black plate for V2 and a different set of speakers will finish it up (other than the GT EL34Ms and having the caps checked).

Thanks guys!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Cool, dude. I picked up similar items on Cyber Monday, whatever in the hell that is. Post some results when you get it up and running.



Count on it mate!



Moose Lewis said:


> I got to pop the unbalanced high gain PI into the 4104 today. Played it for a good while before to get a feel, then again afterwards without changing the settings (no pedals).
> 
> Wasn't the radical difference made with the high gain V1, but seemed overall *'thicker'*. Sustained overtones and harmonic feedback were an easier reach. This amp is really starting to warm up nicely. I think the black plate for V2 and a different set of speakers will finish it up (other than the GT EL34Ms and having the caps checked).
> 
> Thanks guys!



What do you mean by "thicker"?

Let us know what you think about the EL34M's when you get them in. I've curious about them for a while now...


----------



## Moose Lewis

joshuaaewallen said:


> What do you mean by "thicker"?



Yeah... sorry about that. I was feeling both lazy and anxious to hear the difference. I should have recorded before and after, then done a proper frequency analysis. I just get really tired of looking at graphs from mastering or trying to restore audio.

For now, I'll say I heard an increase in the overall harmonic saturation - which was more noticeable in the mid to low ranges... but not an in your face kind of change. When I replaced the V1 with a high gain Ei, there was a marked difference in the preamp gain with more overdrive and all that comes with it. Replacing the PI was far more subtle, but felt like it had filled in the blanks harmonically. I'm a nut for controlled harmonic feedback... so much that I used to mark hot spots for different tones on the stage with a taped 'X' during soundcheck. I am now getting more levels of harmonics from a given spot to work with.

Don't know if that helps, or confuses things further... so I'll just say "S'good!"


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Moose Lewis said:


> Yeah... sorry about that. I was feeling both lazy and anxious to hear the difference. I should have recorded before and after, then done a proper frequency analysis. I just get really tired of looking at graphs from mastering or trying to restore audio.
> 
> For now, I'll say I heard an increase in the overall harmonic saturation - which was more noticeable in the mid to low ranges... but not an in your face kind of change. When I replaced the V1 with a high gain Ei, there was a marked difference in the preamp gain with more overdrive and all that comes with it. Replacing the PI was far more subtle, but felt like it had filled in the blanks harmonically. I'm a nut for controlled harmonic feedback... so much that I used to mark hot spots for different tones on the stage with a taped 'X' during soundcheck. I am now getting more levels of harmonics from a given spot to work with.
> 
> Don't know if that helps, or confuses things further... so I'll just say "S'good!"



Nope. That's what I was wondering. For me the biggest difference in tone was with finding a good V1 tube, but have that stout (30/30) RCA in V4 is what really seemed to make the amp feel/respond more like a living thing. It really "opened" up the amp for me...


----------



## nicoblue

Just wanted to say high and thanks to everyone in this thread, youhave helped me out. Will posts some of my results. Mainly 9 Philips Amperex Holland 12AX7's, Medical Tested 1968 and 2 Mullard Blackburn 12AU7's. Thanks for all who are here to help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice score. Can't wait to hear about them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome aboard, nico.

Let us know how you like those Amperex tubes. What are you using the 12AU7s in?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm still trying to find time to put some pre's in the new Jet City amp. I've already found one problem... the knobs only go to "9"! Nigel wouldn't be happy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's a mod to change the knobs to "10." It will make the amp sound a little louder.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's 1 louder, innit?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got it.


----------



## paw

Just Wanted to say Thanks to MartyStrat
Got the Mullard 12AX7 in two days.
I'll try it out tonight
Phil


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome aboard, nico.
> 
> Let us know how you like those Amperex tubes. What are you using the 12AU7s in?



+1


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'm still trying to find time to put some pre's in the new Jet City amp. I've already found one problem... the knobs only go to "9"! Nigel wouldn't be happy.





MartyStrat54 said:


> There's a mod to change the knobs to "10." It will make the amp sound a little louder.





RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that's 1 louder, innit?



"... Yeah, but why not just make (9) that much louder?"


----------



## nicoblue

nicoblue said:


> Just wanted to say high and thanks to everyone in this thread, youhave helped me out.
> 
> Will posts some of my results. Mainly 9 Philips Amperex Holland 12AX7's, Medical Tested 1968 and 2 Mullard
> 
> Blackburn 12AU7's. Thanks for all who are here to help.







MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice score. Can't wait to hear about them.



Thanks Marty, so here there are guys, thanks. 






RiverRatt said:


> Welcome aboard, nico.
> 
> Let us know how you like those Amperex tubes. What are you using the 12AU7s in?




Thanks RR. I am not sure about the 12AU7's, to be totally honest, I am thinking about trading them. But, I 

was going to wait and ask you guys later. Since you asked, maybe you lads could help me. I have a pretty 

good idea what they are worth, but I am thinking of trading them for some EL84/6Bs5's.


What would be reasonable trade for the 2 Mullards for 6BQ5's. I realize that the 12AX7/12Au7's are more 

desirable than the EL84's, so I just need to know what you guys think could be a fair trade for them. Still 

not sure tough.


These particular tubes 12AX7's are going to be used in the pre of a Vox that has a AC30 with top boost. I 

know its not the forum here, but I also scored 3 Mullard 5AR4 Rectifier tubes for my amp as well. Peace!!

I read that the yellow tip Heerlen's had special testing for medical use? 

12AX7's - 4 - Philips Heerlen, Holland 1966>? All have yellow tip, some faded. 
12AU&'s - 2 - Mullard Blackburn 1960's?











My research has indicated that the Electrohome labeled were from the same production line as the Bugle Boy labeled 12AX7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I usually do an eBay completed listings search if I'm trying to find the market price on a tube. 12AU7s are not a very desirable tube for guitar amps, so don't expect to get a lot for them, even though they are Mullards. The gain factor of a 12AU7 is really low compared to a 12AX7 and they will neuter the gain in a guitar amp. I've got a handful of NOS RCA 12AU7s that I've never tried to sell as they just aren't worth much.

The Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 is a high-dollar tube. If they test NOS and the print is good on them, they can go for upwards of $100 each.


----------



## nicoblue

RiverRatt said:


> I usually do an eBay completed listings search if I'm trying to find the market price on a tube. 12AU7s are not a very desirable tube for guitar amps, so don't expect to get a lot for them, even though they are Mullards. The gain factor of a 12AU7 is really low compared to a 12AX7 and they will neuter the gain in a guitar amp. I've got a handful of NOS RCA 12AU7s that I've never tried to sell as they just aren't worth much.
> 
> The Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 is a high-dollar tube. If they test NOS and the print is good on them, they can go for upwards of $100 each.




Thanks again for the reply. Yah, no doubt on the gain factor. I will just try to play my cards right and get a good trade out of them. I got 5 more of those Philips - Heerlen, Holland/Electrohome 12AX7 coming too. Got those for about $25.00 a piece.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a call today from a guy who found an old service box. He let me pick through it for $5 a tube. These were the prizes, plus I got a pair of NOS GE 6V6GTs and a couple of rectifiers. Nothing great, but at least I snagged another Raytheon black plate. Marty, you're the G.E. expert. What's the story on these tubes? I don't think I've seen any GE long gray plates with red print.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those were probably made in Kentucky the last three or so years that GE made their own tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For ALAN-Scott engineers first incorporated Compactrons, in 1962 into the 370-series (and LT-111, kit version) "entry-level" FM-MPX Stereo tuners, and later in 1964, with the Type 345 FM-MPX Stereo receiver.

Compactrons are multi-function tubes, combining diodes, triodes, and pentodes in various combinations, designed to reduce size and component counts in entertainment and industrial devices. Compactrons have 12 pins arranged around a 3/4-inch diameter base. Tube dimensions are 1-1/8 inch diameter and overall height ranges from 1 inch to 2-3/4 inch depending on tube configuration.

In the early 1960's, tube designers still had a few tricks up their sleeves. General Electric's Owensboro, Kentucky, engineers introduced the "Compactron." GE engineers claimed a two-Compactron radio design could replace a standard five-tube radio complement (seven transistors were needed for the same performance), or a 10-Compactron TV-set could replace 15 tubes and three diodes or 24 transistors and 11 diodes. A seven-Compactron stereo design could replace 10 tubes or as many as 26 transistors. American tube designers clearly hadn't yet thrown in the R & D towel, even as the "space-age" was dawning.

Several metallurgical advances enabled GE engineers to claim a 40 percent reduction in heater power. "A multi-function Compactron will eventually sell for 20 per cent less than an equivalent number of tubes," according to GE marketing officials. (Electronic Design, July 20, 1960, p. 74).

1964 was a very good year, but also the end was near. You just couldn't ignore them little transistors (even if the early one's were noisy as hell).


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I usually do an eBay completed listings search if I'm trying to find the market price on a tube. 12AU7s are not a very desirable tube for guitar amps, so don't expect to get a lot for them, even though they are Mullards. The gain factor of a 12AU7 is really low compared to a 12AX7 and they will neuter the gain in a guitar amp. I've got a handful of NOS RCA 12AU7s that I've never tried to sell as they just aren't worth much.
> 
> The Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 is a high-dollar tube. If they test NOS and the print is good on them, they can go for upwards of $100 each.



You get these with a Double "O" getter they sell for upwards of $150. Score!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those were probably made in Kentucky the last three or so years that GE made their own tubes.



I thought they were way older than that. They don't have the "A" designation and I don't think anybody was using long plate construction by the time GE was winding down. I was thinking they were made back in the 1950's judging by the internals and the other tubes that were in the service box. The plates don't look anything like the later GE stuff that I have - they look more like the plates Tung-Sol and the Philips companies were using in the 50's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I dug a little deeper. The tubes both have 1960 date codes. When did GE buy Ken-Rad?


----------



## nicoblue

Hey guys, I am going to need some help big time. I score 70+12AX&'s - Torvac/England, Rogers, Electrohome, Mullard, I also have about 30 12AU7 Baldwin, Conn, Lowery Branded USA. Got many others too. For a guy who just got into tubes 1 month ago, I believe that I may have hit a nice catch... beginners luck 12AX7 Mother LOAD>... (I put lots of hours into it, it was not luck or fluke, serious research)I am cleaning them now. Will post back a few pics. Thanks again to everyone here that helps out.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think I've ever seen 70 12AX7s in one place at one time. Please do post pics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I thought they were way older than that. They don't have the "A" designation and I don't think anybody was using long plate construction by the time GE was winding down. I was thinking they were made back in the 1950's judging by the internals and the other tubes that were in the service box. The plates don't look anything like the later GE stuff that I have - they look more like the plates Tung-Sol and the Philips companies were using in the 50's.



I have a bunch of later date, long plate GE's. 1969 and such. Some are 7025's. If you found date codes, what year in the 1960's? I spent about an hour and could find nothing in regards to the red print.

Now, are the plates smooth or ribbed? If smooth, they are rare and have been compared to an Amperex or Telefunken. These were made from the late 50's until the mid 60's. A real find if you have some.

Kentucky Radio Corporation (Ken-Rad) was bought by GE I believe in late 1945. GE was making tubes from the plant by 1946-47.

Ken-Rad: (AKA Kentucky Radio formerly Kentucky Lamp Company) Founded in 1902, company started making Tubes in 1925. The Tube business was bought out by GE-USA in 1945. (the lamp business went to Westinghouse at that time) GE had to divest the plant in Owensboro, KY in 1987 as a result of merging with RCA. It is currently owned by an employee investor group, and makes microwave components and ceramic parts.


----------



## nicoblue

RiverRatt said:


> I don't think I've ever seen 70 12AX7s in one place at one time. Please do post pics.



Me neither, I got real real lucky.Peace!


----------



## nicoblue

I may just need help on a few, mainly the 12AU7's. Here are more 12AX7..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you find these, or did you buy them from an old repairman? I noticed that the pins on a lot of them are corroded. Are you going to test them?


----------



## nicoblue

the bottom 5 are Ge, Ge Kinsmen, Sylvania, Lowrey & Baldwin Labeled, Westinghouse 12AX&/7025 Premium.


----------



## nicoblue

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you find these, or did you buy them from an old repairman? I noticed that the pins on a lot of them are corroded. Are you going to test them?




Hi Marty, Thansks for the reply.. Yes you are right, repair man. . Solid guy he was, They have been stored in a heated office, I didn't clean the dust off the pins. Alot of it is dust I believe, they were pretty pretty dusty.Yes, I will absolutely test them. Thanks, what do you think..


----------



## nicoblue




----------



## joshuaaewallen

nicoblue said:


> I may just need help on a few, mainly the 12AU7's. Here are more 12AX7..



Beautiful!


----------



## nicoblue

joshuaaewallen said:


> Beautiful!



thanks bud, last night was actually better than most christmas' I have had since I was a kid. That said, other than the wife, who really isn't into tubes, there was no other family to share this with, as would be at Christmas, So, I thought I would share with you guys. 

I was able to test 3 Mullard GZ34/5AR4's and they all tested new. So, I have good feelings about all these tubes. Just need to get an adapter for my friends tube tester. 

Anyone have any ideas, 


Its a Precision 912, has the updated double roll charts, but there is no 9 pin slot. There were adaptors that came with the machine that got lost so no testing the 12AX7, 12AU7, 6BQ5's,,, Does anyone here have an idea where I could get an adapter for octal base to 9 pin. I don't know if those yellow jacket things will work on the tester, theoretically they should... Shouldn;t they?? hehe

Ant help would be appreciated.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a bunch of later date, long plate GE's. 1969 and such. Some are 7025's. If you found date codes, what year in the 1960's? I spent about an hour and could find nothing in regards to the red print.
> 
> Now, are the plates smooth or ribbed? If smooth, they are rare and have been compared to an Amperex or Telefunken. These were made from the late 50's until the mid 60's. A real find if you have some.
> 
> Kentucky Radio Corporation (Ken-Rad) was bought by GE I believe in late 1945. GE was making tubes from the plant by 1946-47.
> 
> Ken-Rad: (AKA Kentucky Radio formerly Kentucky Lamp Company) Founded in 1902, company started making Tubes in 1925. The Tube business was bought out by GE-USA in 1945. (the lamp business went to Westinghouse at that time) GE had to divest the plant in Owensboro, KY in 1987 as a result of merging with RCA. It is currently owned by an employee investor group, and makes microwave components and ceramic parts.




They date to the 35th and 46th week of 1960. They aren't smooth plates. I'm wondering if the red print is some sort of special designation, like military or medical?


----------



## nicoblue

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you find these, or did you buy them from an old repairman? I noticed that the pins on a lot of them are corroded. Are you going to test them?




So, I tested all 68 of the 12AX7, all were in excellent shape. I didn't know the tester and so I put 3 new JJ 12AX7's on and they tested between 80 to 90%.

I then started my job. By the end I had 2 duds. All of the Mullard Torvac tested the exact same at 79 & 80%. 

The Rogers, Philips and GE were the same. Some a bit lower. There were several 7025's and they tested higher than the JJ's and a few Sylvania and other odd ones were very high. 

Thanks again to all who helped me as I lurked and read for a month.


----------



## MM54

I am so fucking jealous 


Hey Marty - what company was that you said stamped "Gt. Britain" on tubes (as opposed to Mullard's "Made In Gt. Britain")? I have a 6GW8/ECL86 sitting here I'm looking to sell off, maybe get some Christmas money. It's re-branded for Realistic Lifetime, but I can make out "Gt. Britain" in white on it.

Edit: Here's some massive, high-resolution pictures of it if that'll help ID it.
http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Realistic-Labeled 6GW8/


----------



## MartyStrat54

"Ei." Ei made a lot of tubes for various companies late in the 70's and so forth. Ei was in business until 2004(?). My 1999 DSL401 was all Ei and I know that Ei was supplying Marshall with preamp tubes until at least 2002.

I think they are all smooth plates and are very good sounding tubes.


----------



## MM54

Awesome, think it's worth much? I don't have the numbers to test it, but it's NIB.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have an EI, Matt, and I think I paid around $40 for mine from Fine European and American NOS Audio and Guitar Tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh if it was only 1967 again...






Look closely. 12AX7's for 37 cents a piece.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, is that an ad for your tube sale for Christmas?


----------



## nicoblue

MM54 said:


> I am so fucking jealous
> 
> 
> Hey Marty - what company was that you said stamped "Gt. Britain" on tubes (as opposed to Mullard's "Made In Gt. Britain")? I have a 6GW8/ECL86 sitting here I'm looking to sell off, maybe get some Christmas money. It's re-branded for Realistic Lifetime, but I can make out "Gt. Britain" in white on it.
> 
> Edit: Here's some massive, high-resolution pictures of it if that'll help ID it.
> Index of /tube-imgs/Realistic-Labeled 6GW8




Hey, I dont mean to answer for Marty, but Philips made some tubes that were labeled Gr Britain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For those wanting to learn a little about tube manufacturing.

Tubes normally have a metallic appearing deposit on the inside of the envelope, or on the glass stem. This is the result of the firing of a getter during tube manufacture.

Creating the high-vacuum needed for the functioning of a tube is a difficult process. While air will flow from an area of higher pressure, to an area of lower pressure, once the tube reaches a partial vacuum, the random motion of the air molecules reduces the ability to completely remove all the air from the tube. Tube makers use various techniques to assist in the removal of the air. Tubes are heated and connected up and run - sometimes beyond their normal ratings for an extended period of time to allow as many molecules as possible to leave the tube. This step is called "Processing" in tube industry lingo, and precedes the sealing of the exhaust tip.

Some chemical reactions, like activating the cathode, also occur during processing.

The Getter is a small amount of a highly reactive substance, often Barium, that is set off by a Radio Frequency Heater near the time that the tube is sealed off. The exact color of the deposit left by the getter on the walls of the tube depends on the exact substance that is used, the temperature that it is fired at, the amount of Air still in the tube at the time the Getter is fired, and probably the phase of the moon. Getter deposits range from a Mirror like silver to a dark black. If the coating is very thin, a rainbow like effect - similar to an Oil spill on water - may develop.

If the Getter is exposed to any residual gas in the tube, the gas will react and be trapped by reaction with the Getter material. The Getter in a leaky tube will be quickly used up and only a Milky stain will remain. If a tube has a whitish edge to its getter it can mean that it was sealed before the processing was complete, or that it has had gas induced by a slow leak, or from some contamination that was left on internal parts during assembly.

The Glass to Metal seals that are needed for tube leads to exit are very hard to make and so it is possible for them to be imperfect. Leakage may be assisted by extremes in temperature. (like the vendor that claims to improve sound by dumping tubes in a refrigerant). 

Just another thing to think about when buying a set of cyro tubes. Will the base give out around the pins?


----------



## MM54

Where'd that video go... there's a guy making his own triodes totally from scratch, it's amazing...

It's got to be somewhere around here...

Ah, there it is.

The video is towards the bottom of the page, 17 minutes, but completely fascinating: F2FO


----------



## nicoblue

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh if it was only 1967 again...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look closely. 12AX7's for 37 cents a piece.



lol, no doubt. Said that for many stocks too. As per your statement though, I just found out that I was back in 1962 for a while the other night. As far as I have learned to read the codes.... Those Torvac branded Mullard's are 1959, first production run, Feb 1959. WOW. I will probably never get another find like that for a bit. 


*Today I ran a Mullard GZ34 Rectifier in all these setups.*

Vox AC30CC2Z( I call it Z cause the CC2X has Blue Celestions, I put 2 Golds in) So there was no name for it)

*Anyhow, first setup... *

Preamp - 7025 - 3 Rogers
Poweramp - EL84 - 2 Sylvania England - 2 Philips Holland

Sounded great, Warm, Muddy, Clean.. Little too much gain on the Channel B. Grade A-


*Second Setup....*

Preamp - 12AX7 - 3 Philips/Amperex Holland
Poweramp - 4 Baldwin Labeled/Matched Quad??

Sounded really nice, everything worked amazing. Sparkling, pronounced rich rich sound. Grade A


*Third setup....*

Preamp - 12AX7 - 3 Mullard/Torvac Matched 1962
Poweramp - El84 - 2 Sylvania Elgland - 2 Mullard Blackburn

A++++++


Peace to all. Nico


----------



## MartyStrat54

nicoblue said:


> Hey, I dont mean to answer for Marty, but Philips made some tubes that were labeled Gr Britain.



Well we are talking about manufacturers that "lied" about where the tubes were made. This happened with both USA and Euro companies. RCA was real bad at admitting where tubes were made, especially after 1977. Later, Philips ECG (who had bought out Sylvania) was putting Russian tubes in boxes marked, "Made in USA." 

RCA got away with it for a while until the government stepped in. RCA will have on the box, "Authorized Distributor" instead of "Manufactured by." Mullard made tubes for RCA and it would say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on the tube. The Ei tubes would say only "Gt. Britain" on the glass.

Of course, even in the heyday of tube manufacturing, Company A would buy thousands of tubes from Company B and then Company A would put their label on the tubes. Most American companies had a "permanent" ID marking that would identify the tube no matter what was printed on at a later time.

This is why it is a good idea to understand Philips codes. A tube marked as an Amperex could actually be a slant getter Valvo made in Hamburg, Germany. Philips was notorious for relabeling their own tubes. Philips owned Mullard so it was easy enough to get tubes marked, "Made in Gt. Britain."


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yet again more reason to love this thread! I dig how much great info you guys post. Thank you!


----------



## MartyStrat54

118,000 views and still going strong.


----------



## scat7s

martystrat54, 

could you tell me how CBS 12ax7's compare w/other domestic and european 12ax's?

are they simply rca (or some other brand) relabeled as CBS? 

thank you...


----------



## Koop

MM54 said:


> Where'd that video go... there's a guy making his own triodes totally from scratch, it's amazing...
> 
> It's got to be somewhere around here...
> 
> Ah, there it is.
> 
> The video is towards the bottom of the page, 17 minutes, but completely fascinating: F2FO



Thanks for posting the link, absolutely fascinating!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sometimes all that re-labeling can lead to some good deals on eBay if you know what to look for. I bought a handful of Westinghouse USA tubes that the seller was selling as Made in Japan, but they were obviously Ei smooth plates with the Philips Ei factory code. IIRC they went for about $5 each.

It works both ways, though. There's a seller on eBay right now selling a 12AX7 as a Matsushita "Mullard" when it clearly is a Toshiba tube. If you look at the exhaust tip on any Philips-made tube, they are consistently similar from one factory to another and it makes it easy to quickly pick them out from the BS on eBay. Check out the similarities:

Matsushita:





Siemens & Halske:





Ei:





Mullard:


----------



## scat7s

by exaust tube, you mean the glass 'tit' on the top? 

any other tips for IDing great tubes in disguise? 

i can tfind much about cbs 12ax's, but i did see one guy selling a pair for $90, not bad considering i think i paid 5 or 10 bucks for the amp chassis containing the cbs's at a ham radio swap meet. ive gotten some great old tubes at those hamfests, always dirt cheap.


----------



## Moose Lewis

Got the black plate in the post today, Marty. Fired 'er up. Amp is sounding so good, I don't like any of my pedals with it except the Xotic EP booster... which just makes it louder.

Good lookin' tube too, man. Felt kinda special slippin' that pretty Baldwin in.  
Thanks!


----------



## MM54

To ID tubes, look for markings etched into the glass, the seams on the top of the glass, and stuff stamped into the base of the tube, and the structure of the metal bits inside. 

I have a few very high-resolution pictures on my server of tubes in detail, and I plan to add to it to eventually get a good little pile of pictures to help people ID their tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

The tip and seams on the top are good ways to spot a Philips tube. Smooth plates are either going to be Telefunken (which have a diamond molded into the glass on the bottom) or Ei. You can also look at the getter - on an old tube it's going to be either a circle, square, or "D" shaped. If the getter is solid, kinda like a saucer, it's a more recent Chinese or Russian tube. If you see a tube that has a little metal tag on the getter post with a number embossed on it, it's a Tungsram. The best thing to do is look at as many different tubes as you can. You'll learn to spot little differences in construction. If you have time, go to tubemongerlib.com and browse through the 12AX7 pictures.

I can't help you with the CBS tubes at all. The only ones I've got aren't 12AX7s.


----------



## scat7s

thanks for the info, i just found out that another bunch of tubes i have are actually rca's. they are branded as national. ive got 4 of em. sweet...

let me ask you guys something. if youve got a bunch of pcs of gear, and only a limited number of great vintage 12ax7's, how do you decide what to use and what to put away for a rainy day. ive got quite a few nice old tubes, and i try to use them sparingly in my regular gear, but im def getting low these days on vintage spares. im just not sure how i should be using them, or just say fuck it, use the great tubes and stock up later when the opportunity comes along.

do you guys use vintage tubes throughout your fav amp? or only in key positions? (v1 or PI, etc)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

scat7s said:


> ... let me ask you guys something. if youve got a bunch of pcs of gear, and only a limited number of great vintage 12ax7's, how do you decide what to use and what to put away for a rainy day. ive got quite a few nice old tubes, and i try to use them sparingly in my regular gear, but im def getting low these days on vintage spares. im just not sure how i should be using them, or just say fuck it, use the great tubes and stock up later when the opportunity comes along.
> 
> do you guys use vintage tubes throughout your fav amp? or only in key positions? (v1 or PI, etc)



I figure good tubes are like fine instruments themselves. Take your pick, be it a Strativarius, a classic Les Paul, or an old Mullard, a fine instrument just plain ought to be played... So I'd just as soon use the best I can and revel in all it's sonic glory for as long as I can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

scat7s said:


> martystrat54,
> 
> could you tell me how CBS 12ax7's compare w/other domestic and european 12ax's?
> 
> are they simply rca (or some other brand) relabeled as CBS?
> 
> thank you...



Although CBS did buy tubes from outside sources, they in fact manufactured their own line of tubes. They were never as big as RCA, GE or Sylvania, but they were noted as being a high quality tube. The most desirable CBS 12AX7 is the "red tip."

Here is a run down of the history of CBS Hytron.

CBS Hytron tubes - a set on Flickr


----------



## scat7s

interesting, and all made right down the road from me. thanks marty, not sure if i have red tips or not, i'll have to look. its printed in red ink, that much i remember.


----------



## Salsg

Anyone identify these Marshall tubes?


----------



## ken361

Salsg said:


> Anyone identify these Marshall tubes?



EI probably on the left


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, and a silver plate Ei at that. I've never seen one in person.

The one on the right looks Russian.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I know this has already been answered, but for the life of me I can't seem to find it here...

What kind of 12AX7's are currently shipping in new Marshall's?


----------



## ken361

joshuaaewallen said:


> I know this has already been answered, but for the life of me I can't seem to find it here...
> 
> What kind of 12AX7's are currently shipping in new Marshall's?


chinese


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Any particular manufacturer they use in general?


----------



## ken361

just relabeled tubes


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hmm... Not enough consistancy in relabeled tubes to specify one or two more common makes?


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hmm... Not enough consistancy in relabeled tubes to specify one or two more common makes?



Go back and look at this post. It might be the info you're looking for.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how-241.html#post249454


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thanks Mate. That is _exactly_ what I was looking for. How on earth I missed that I'm not sure, but... That is it. Thank you!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A tip of the hat to Big Dooley for that info.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

+1


----------



## nicoblue

I just scored another 80 12ax7's and 100 plus 12au7's. I got 12 6BQ5 Holland Japan and Austria... 

Does anyone know if it is Sylvania that made the Green Label Baldwin 12AX7's. Will post some pics after company leaves. Happy Holidays to all. Nico


----------



## RiverRatt

You must be raiding some old organs. Where are you finding all this stuff??? I'm starting to get jealous here.

Post some pics of the Baldwin tube and I'm sure somebody here will recognize it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

nicoblue said:


> I just scored another 80 12ax7's and 100 plus 12au7's. I got 12 6BQ5 Holland Japan and Austria...
> 
> Does anyone know if it is Sylvania that made the Green Label Baldwin 12AX7's. Will post some pics after company leaves. Happy Holidays to all. Nico



Holy crap mate! Where do you score all of these?


----------



## thrawn86

Organ-Donor?


----------



## nicoblue

thrawn86 said:


> Organ-Donor?




Yah, I found a guy who used to supply organ parts, bought all of his 12ax7/12au7 stock. I just was real thorough and persistent. They are out there for sure. My first batch was from an old tv repair man, I just got mostly obscure tv tubes. last two were from a parts dealer. 

All the best guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lucky dog.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That's awesome.


----------



## ken361

nicoblue said:


> I just scored another 80 12ax7's and 100 plus 12au7's. I got 12 6BQ5 Holland Japan and Austria...
> 
> Does anyone know if it is Sylvania that made the Green Label Baldwin 12AX7's. Will post some pics after company leaves. Happy Holidays to all. Nico



Yes Sylvania made baldwins,decent tubes~! nice score.


----------



## nicoblue

Ok, here are 3 baldwin and a lowery. all long plates. can anyone help me clarify these. 











Thanks you guys for your identification help. 

Here is what I think

Yellow Baldwin 12AX7 - Raytheon Long Black Plates>?
White Baldwin - 7025 - ??
Green Baldwin- 12AX7 - Sylvania Long Plate>?
Yellow Lowery - 12AX7 -RCA Long Plates?


Thanks again for your help. Peace Nico.


----------



## RiverRatt

What I'm seeing from left to right is a GE long plate, Sylvania, Raytheon black plate, and I believe the white label Baldwin 7025 is also a Raytheon black plate. I can't be positive about the 4th tube without seeing the top mica and getter - if it has the paper clip looking thing above the top mica like #3, it's a Raytheon. If it doesn't have it, it's probably an old Sylvania black plate.


----------



## nicoblue

here is another pic of the 7025 baldwin white print. These ones are long black plates with the O getter on the side of the tube. 






Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not to many side getter 12AX7's. It's not an RCA as the number is not inside of the famous octagon box. Sonotone's are rare, but you may have some. I will have to check it against some Sonotone's I have. Maybe Ratt can compare it to the one he has.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, that's a weird one. The closest thing I've seen to that is a Sonotone 12AX7/7025. I have several examples of that tube, but all have a square or D side getter. I've never seen one with a round getter or black plates before. It could be an earlier Sonotone or perhaps a failed RCA experiment. 

AFAIK those are the only two companies that ever produced a side getter preamp tube. All the RCA side getters I've seen have been perfectly clear on the top and were all 12AU7s. The Sonotone tubes have a smoky look to the glass, especially in the top. Here's the last one I ran across - it's a Magnavox tube with the Sonotone EIA number printed on it and was labeled as a 7025.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Maybe Ratt can compare it to the one he has.



I hate dual posting. Yeah, I have 3 or 4 Sonotones and all look like the example above. Nico has something different there.


----------



## nicoblue

thanks to RR & Marty. I have been reading and I know that Marty.. you said that its not RCA.. but could it be an RCA Canada. The Tubes are long black plate.. have K1 and a J on the one side. A Round Splotch of ?? maybe Mercury on trhe side where the getter is and they say Canada at the top then below 12AX7A & below 7025A & Baldwin in white... I am going to take a few better pictures. But I have read that they could be made by RCA Canada. Thanks for your guys help, I do appreciate it. They also test strong.. in the 90;s. The only higher tubes I have seen are those Green 12AX7 Sylvania's that test off the charts.


----------



## nicoblue

I just pulled my Mullard and put these Canada 12AX7A/7025A./. WOW, they are dead silent, clean, crisp, bright and overdrive awesome. They could be my favs so far. I actually had pulled the Mullards to put in the 12AX7 Sylvania/Baldwin.. Those were too clean and bright for me. Very nice but not im my AC30. But if these are Canada RCA's 12AX7 Long Black Plates they did a wonderful wonderful job. Pure Class.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What brand are the Canadians? Electrohome?


----------



## nicoblue

MartyStrat54 said:


> What brand are the Canadians? Electrohome?




Hey Marty, they just have the Baldwin label. I do have some Electrohome label 12ax7's they are either Heerlen Holland, Great Britain or Canada. I think its the same as the Bugle Boys. Same factory and manufacturing line. At least that is the ones with the Delta Triangle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you have some odd ducks. You got a lot of good one's though. It can be difficult to identify who made which tubes. Everybody bought tubes from other companies and some were relabeled on clean glass. If that happens, it makes it extremely difficult to identify the tube. You have to resort to looking at the guts and then it may be difficult to identify.


----------



## nicoblue

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you have some odd ducks. You got a lot of good one's though. It can be difficult to identify who made which tubes. Everybody bought tubes from other companies and some were relabeled on clean glass. If that happens, it makes it extremely difficult to identify the tube. You have to resort to looking at the guts and then it may be difficult to identify.




odd Ducks.. lol, thanks that reminded me of my Mom, RIP. 

Thanks for your help. I have found a few adds that are advertising these as RCA Canada 7025a Black Plates. I also found some other adds advertising the same thing but in a 12AU7 which I have a few of them too. If it were RCA Canada, would these be USA made and labeled Canada or actually made in Canada. I know some decent tubes were actually made in Canada, so I guess like you said sometimes you never know. 

Peace, Nico


----------



## nicoblue

Hey Guys, can anyone tell me about EMI 12AX7's/. I have about 8 in the bunch, I know that Electrical & Musical Industries is a British manufacturer, but did they make quality product>? Thanks. if you need I can post a pic or 2. Peace!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Wow... You' be got a lot of interesting critters there mate. I wish I knew something about them to help, but I'm sure Marty, Alan, or Joe will be along shortly with some good intel on the matter...


----------



## solarburn

Check this pedal out guys. It has an EF86 tube in it that you can bias on the pedal by turn pot...

I put this here cause of the tube...

Fryette Amplification Announces Pedal Line with S.A.S. and Boostassio - Premier Guitar











North Hollywood, CA (December 17, 2010) -- Fryette Amplification has announced a new line of tube-driven pedals called the Sound Effects Series, launching with the S.A.S. distortion and Boostassio boost. Both pedals are true bypass and are powered by a single EF86 pentode tube (not interchangeable with 12AX7 or similar types). Fryette says, "A selected Tung-Sol EF86 is chosen for low microphonics, ultra-quiet operation and extended tube life. The EF86 is powered by a super low-noise high output internal power transformer for maximum dynamic range and bullet-proof reliability." Here are the specifics on each pedal from Fryette:
S.A.S.
Waves of distorted mutilation crash against sonic temples as notes radiate into the Stratosphere. S.A.S. is possibly the most beautifully ugly distortion device you will ever encounter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cool stuff. Thanks Joe.


----------



## BluesRocker

That looks sweet Joe! I may have to try one of those out.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I like how you can mess with the bias to get variations. Pretty cool idea especially if it gets usable tones. Like the overall concept here.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah. Reminds me of the Butler Tube Driver. You can do the same with it. Adjust the bias.


----------



## topcat 70

Has anyone tried the TJ Full Music 12ax7's.I just picked up two for £35.Sound really good to me!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Fun to see the discussion going on outside of our little world...

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/21476-my-thoughts-nos-tubes.html


----------



## joshuaaewallen

topcat 70 said:


> Has anyone tried the TJ Full Music 12ax7's.I just picked up two for £35.Sound really good to me!



What's your review on these mate? Bass, mids, treble... How do they stack up against what you were running?


----------



## topcat 70

joshuaaewallen said:


> What's your review on these mate? Bass, mids, treble... How do they stack up against what you were running?



Its hard to say at the moment.Im going through a phase of buying loads of old pre amp tubes.Ive got (in my Mk2 50w mv) brimar in 1 and 3 and a mullard in 2.I really like the sound of it so i am reluctant to put the tj's in.Initial impressions when i got them was + though.


----------



## MM54

Hey Josh, you get that Tung-Sol yet?


----------



## RiverRatt

topcat 70 said:


> Has anyone tried the TJ Full Music 12ax7's.I just picked up two for £35.Sound really good to me!



That's pretty good - they seem to be $110USD for a pair here. Are they made by Shugang? They kinda have that look. 

Let us know what you think about them. All the stuff I've read on the web sounds like the usual self-promoting fanboy type comments. The Hi-Fi crowd seems to like them a lot, but I read another review that said they were only good for around 1,000 hours. That's pretty low. 

I did read an interesting thread on Audiokarma where Grant Fidelity, the US importer, was offering a "pass-around" on these tubes. I like the tube-swapping concept and have done it myself with the regulars here, but it seems a little iffy to offer forum-wide.

TJ FullMusic 12AX7 Demo - Pass Around - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I did read an interesting thread on Audiokarma where Grant Fidelity, the US importer, was offering a "pass-around" on these tubes. I like the tube-swapping concept and have done it myself with the regulars here, but it seems a little iffy to offer forum-wide.
> 
> TJ FullMusic 12AX7 Demo - Pass Around - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums



Looks interesting. Thanks for the link Mate!



MM54 said:


> Hey Josh, you get that Tung-Sol yet?



Not yet. But I'm checking my PO BOX daily. Gonna be fun!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> Hey Josh, you get that Tung-Sol yet?



Look what came in the mail today! Mmm... Vintage glass... Mmm...




































In the words of the immortal Bon Scott... "Let There Be Rock!"


----------



## RiverRatt

Do some tube rolling for us, Josh. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Tung-Sol. I've had a couple of old ones and they are pretty smooth. 

I'm going to have to get my tube rolling thrills on here for awhile. I have a raging sinus infection and my ears are so fucked up I couldn't hear the difference between my strat and Les Paul. I tried playing really loud to see if that would help, but it just made my head hurt. I'm trying to remedy the situation with Kentucky bourbon and whatever decongestants I can find around the house, which ain't much.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sorry to hear your under the weather mate. I know from experience that sinus infections SUCK!!!

I prolly won't have a report fer ya tonight... Gotta hit the beddy-bye, but soon. In the meantime,,,

Get well soon, bro!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Been a looooooooong day. And a couple or four Captain 'n Cokes are just what the doc ordered. I'm beat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice Tung-Sol's. I hope you like them.


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Look what came in the mail today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (Etc)
> 
> In the words of the immortal Bon Scott... "Let There Be Rock!"



That tube and handwriting looks familiar...

Glad it made it there safely  be sure to let us know what you think!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

> That tube and handwriting looks familiar...
> 
> Glad it made it there safely
> 
> 
> 
> be sure to let us know what you think! __________________
> -Matt
> _If you don't understand what I'm saying, assume I'm making a joke. Trust me._
> 
> *Setup*
> 1990 50W JCM 900 4500
> -Preamp: NOS Mullard, RCA, RCA
> -Power: CP Electro-Harmonix 6CA7
> 2010 ML100 (100W Build)
> -Preamp: NOS Telefunken, Mullard, Tung-sol
> -Power: CP Electro-Harmonix 6CA7
> 2009 M412B
> -Eminence AX-75 (OEM)
> 2008 Cort VX-2V
> 2009 Epi Les Paul Studio Deluxe



Indeed! I am pretty fired up for a chance to really put it through it's paces. Muchas Gracias Mi Amigo!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sorry to hear your under the weather mate. I know from experience that sinus infections SUCK!!!
> 
> I prolly won't have a report fer ya tonight... Gotta hit the beddy-bye, but soon. In the meantime,,,
> 
> Get well soon, bro!



Thanks, I'm working on it. I ditched the decongestants as they just make me more cranky and I don't need help with that!

I tried nature's remedy tonight. My wife made a batch of burritos and when I got home from the office I had one with a couple of Sam Adams Latitude 48 IPA beers and a LARGE side of jalapenos. Between the overdose of hops and peppers, the sinuses are clear for the first time in days, at least for awhile.

So, are you going to give us a tone report on the Tung-Sol or just pictures??


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love peppers. If you can eat a whole raw Jalapeno then you are a man.


----------



## RiverRatt

Jalapenos are for pussies. I'm a habanero man myself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have to eat butter and coat my throat and lips before biting into a habanero. That juice will burn your skin.


----------



## RiverRatt

I make a habanero salsa that, as a friend commented, "This shit is Creeper". It was fun to watch it happen, too. I made some chili one night and a bunch of habanero salsa. He ate without comment for a couple of minutes, looked up at me with his eyes running, and made a long, drawn out "Whheeewwww". You don't mess with me and my salsa. Even my kids eat jalapenos.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...You don't mess with me and my salsa. Even my kids eat jalapenos.


I like this forum more every day!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have to eat butter and coat my throat and lips before biting into a habanero. That juice will burn your skin.



Ha!

Jalepenos... Their not just for breakfast anymore! Habeneros... C'mon baby light my fire...

Ain't nothin' like some good _*HOT*_ chilli! And if you've got fire in the hole the next day, you know it was done right! I'm getting hungry just thinking on it. Mmm... Beer and chilli... Mmm...

The Tung-Sol... Sorry... I haven't had too much flying time with it yet. I was able to take and record some clips of it late last night, but haven't done anything since and still haven't uploaded them. However... I will say this... So far far my top three favorite V1 tubes are the Tele, the Shita, and this Tung-Sol. It's a tough call. But I'll definitely have more thoughts once I get more air-time with the Tung-Sol. I also want to compare it to the current production Tung-Sol (both standard and gold-pin) and see how they stack up.

My next tube to find for comparison's sake will be a good NOS Mullard...


----------



## TheGummy

I'm looking to lower the gain a little of the preamp section in my 1978 2203.
It's currently just three EHX 12ax7 so i'll probably change them all out for something hopefully nicer.

can anybody recommend anything?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TheGummy said:


> I'm looking to lower the gain a little of the preamp section in my 1978 2203.
> It's currently just three EHX 12ax7 so i'll probably change them all out for something hopefully nicer.
> 
> can anybody recommend anything?



I'd start with a good RCA 7025 in V1. It will lower your gain a tad from a 12AX7, but will give you plenty of nice heavy crunch, and will be very responsive to your guitar's volume knob and your picking technique. They clean up nicely.

For V2 a good Phillips Black Plate works well. Hard to describe, but this is a tube that just seems to work well in the eq section. 

And for V3 a nice low noise, high gain tube works wonders for helping an amp have a nice open and responsive feel when playing. I favor an RCA for this slot as to my ear they seem to generate less background noise when pushed.

Anyhoo, there's my two cents.


----------



## TheGummy

Thanks. Just had a quick browse and found these:

2, Matched, Very Rare-RCA 7025A/12AX7A Side "O" Getter on eBay (end time 24-Dec-10 04:12:30 GMT)

What does the 'Side "O" Getter' refer to? Would they do the trick for V1 and V3 in the configuration you suggested?


----------



## johnfv

I am still a bit of a noob with detecting the subtle differences; I found in some cases I needed to do something more dramatic (like a 5751 for example) to notice a substantial gain difference. I sometimes purposely try a big change in a particular position (5751 or even 12AT7 or 12AU7) just to help identify what that position contributes to the overall preamp tone and gain structure. I find I like a good ECC83 for a more traditional Marshall tone, the 7025 tubes I have sound more "hi fi" to me (but for example work well in V2). I'm learning here... some day maybe I'll even recognize the tubes via internal structure like y'all do


----------



## MM54

I just got an order of JJ ECC803S for a hi-fi amp in, and I must say, for CP, I'm fairly impressed with the internal structure. Anyone know much about these tubes?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TheGummy said:


> Thanks. Just had a quick browse and found these:
> 
> 2, Matched, Very Rare-RCA 7025A/12AX7A Side "O" Getter on eBay (end time 24-Dec-10 04:12:30 GMT)
> 
> What does the 'Side "O" Getter' refer to? Would they do the trick for V1 and V3 in the configuration you suggested?



If you look the pictures of the tubes, you see a kinda dark silvery kinda spot on the one side of the glass. That's the flash. The getter is right by that and looks rather like a small wire halo (in this case a vertical halo). Typically the getter is at the top of the tube, and, while it is usually round, can come in a variety of shapes, sizes, and angles. As for how the shape, angle, and location of the getter directly influence the tube's tone... I really don't know. But all of these seemingly subtle differences do affect the tone of thee tube.

As for this specific tube... I'm not familiar at all with a side "o" getter RCA 7025, but it seems like a wee bit o' $$$ for a single tube, to me... Maybe some of the other guys here know if this is worth it, and if this tube will meet your needs for a V1 tube?

Guys...?

Either way, I wouldn't use it for V3. For V3 I'd go with a higher gain 12AX7.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I just got an order of JJ ECC803S for a hi-fi amp in, and I must say, for CP, I'm fairly impressed with the internal structure. Anyone know much about these tubes?



Are those the gold pin JJ's?


----------



## RiverRatt

We were talking about round side-getter tubes a couple pages back, which is the first time I'd even seen one. I have some side-getter 12AX7s but they have a square getter and are Sonotone tubes. They are pretty rare as well.

Nicoblue is the one who originally posted shots of his. Maybe he can give us an idea how they sound and a few more clues to help track them down.

I'm not familiar with any RCA Canada tubes (doesn't mean much). I know Philips had a plant in Canada that made Electrohome branded tubes that were good, but these definitely aren't a Philips product. One thing I have learned is that when you start tracking down a particular oddball tube like that you're not going to find much except vague speculation and a lot of dead ends.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Two round O side getter clear top Sonotones just sold for $10.46 on EBAY.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> We were talking about round side-getter tubes a couple pages back, which is the first time I'd even seen one. I have some side-getter 12AX7s but they have a square getter and are Sonotone tubes. They are pretty rare as well.
> 
> Nicoblue is the one who originally posted shots of his. Maybe he can give us an idea how they sound and a few more clues to help track them down...



Sheesh... How'd I miss that?


----------



## johnfv

Do you guys have any suggestions on procedure for auditioning different preamp tubes. For example, how long does a preamp tube need to be on before I can give it a fair audition?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

johnfv said:


> Do you guys have any suggestions on procedure for auditioning different preamp tubes. For example, how long does a preamp tube need to be on before I can give it a fair audition?





joshuaaewallen said:


> ... I have a TSL100, and have done a fair amount of pre-amp tube swapping. My basic procedure is to let the amp warm up nicely to start with, then I'll power everything down for 30-60 seconds while I perform the swap, and I just power it back up, leave it on standby for another 30 seconds or so, then I play away.
> 
> On my first go-round with a new trial tube I don't like to move the eq around too much from my "normal" settings. this way I can see just how different the tubes sound compared to what I'm used to. Then I start fiddling w/ the controls looking for interesting sweet spots.



I can't speak for anyone else here, but that's how I usually go about things. I hope this helps. Rock on!


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Are those the gold pin JJ's?



I don't think they're gold pin, look on tubedepot (I'm on my phone, so no link) for the JJ ECC803S


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ECC803S TESLA FAKE TUBES

http://www.jacmusic.com/tesla/tesla-jj.html

... Interesting.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I don't think they're gold pin, look on tubedepot (I'm on my phone, so no link) for the JJ ECC803S



I know why I was thinking Gold-Pin when you mentioned these... It's because I have a Gold Pinned Tung-Sol w/ the same part number...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sad...

Marshall TSL 100/122 Premium Tube Set EL34 12AX7 - eBay (item 390006292895 end time Jan-24-11 07:10:12 PST)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Putting JJ's in Westinghouse boxes (and ProComm).


----------



## schwa

I have a question for you folks that I hope you can help with. I have a 2204 head, and I changed out a current production JJ for a NOS Mullard in V1. The difference was noticable, I much preferred the Mullard. 

I have a small stash of NOS tubes (Mullards, Tele's, and some GE's). Is V1 the only "important" slot in the preamp? Do you run NOS when you can in V2 and V3, or do you do just fine with modern tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You nailed it. V1 is the most important slot. I would advise a good tube in V2 as well, because half of that tube is used in the gain stage. If you have a GE to stick in V3, you would be all set.

If you run a NOS tube in V1, you could use like a new Tung-Sol in V2 and another CP tube in V3.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

V1 is undeniably where you' re gonna hear the most pronounced difference. The other slot that I've noticed a big difference is my PI. That space is less of a tone thing and, more of a feel kinda thing... If that makes sense.... A good tube in the PI really "opens up" an amp. Changes the dynamics, the way the amp reacts to your picking technique and your guitar's volume knob, etc... Where I personally have a more difficult time seeing a difference in tubes is in the middle spots (my TSL uses 4 preamp tubes, so for me this would be V2 and V3).


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Wow, Marty is fast tonight! Rock on mate!

... Again... I'd say listen to Marty, he's never steered me wrong. Most important of all though, listen to your ears. If you try a tube and don't like what you hear... Change it out. But if you do like it... Who cares what it is, run with it.


----------



## BluesRocker

telefunken ftw!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... Them Tele's are dang nice...


----------



## schwa

Thanks for the advice guys. I have 4 Mullards and two Tele's that I'll save for V1. I've got a few GE's that I'll try in V3, and a new Tung Sol that I'll try first in V2 (maybe try another GE in there as well). BTW - all three slots had new JJ's in them to start


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said, I'm not too high on JJ's. If I was to use one it would be in the PI.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't like JJ's either. Depending on the amp, I think the Tung-Sol RI or the standard Chinese 12AX7 offers more bang for the buck.


----------



## Clammy

RiverRatt said:


> I don't like JJ's either. Depending on the amp, I think the Tung-Sol RI or the standard Chinese 12AX7 offers more bang for the buck.




Yeah, I find the JJ 12ax7s sorely lacking. I like the Tung-Sols for current prod preamp tubes.

Cheers!


----------



## mike mike

ok guys, i got two nos tubes from a friend for free today. i know one is the prized RCA 12au7a black plate with the square getter(i just researched it when i got home, he just has random tubes lying around the house) and the other is a random 12ax7a that is only labeled with "12ax7a", "japan", and "1mt6" any help?


----------



## RiverRatt

The 12AU7 won't do much good in a Marshall. They only have 18% of the gain factor of a 12AX7. There are some boost pedals that use them but mostly you're going to find them in hi-fi circuits and as low power amplifiers.

Give us some more info on the 12AX7. Does it have seams on the top? A photo would help, too. Generally, no seams on top = Toshiba, seams = Matsushita. If it's a 'shita, you did good.


----------



## mike mike

well the 12ax7a doesn't say japan anymore. i could have either rubbed it off when i washed the dust off of it, or i picked up a different tube. but here is a pic. there is no seam


----------



## MartyStrat54

Usually the "JAPAN" is printed in a tough ink that is hard to wipe off. 

Like RATT said, if it is smooth on the top of the tube it is more than likely a Toshiba.


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> Usually the "JAPAN" is printed in a tough ink that is hard to wipe off.
> 
> Like RATT said, if it is smooth on the top of the tube it is more than likely a Toshiba.



alright. are they any good? and did you see the picture? and wouldnt the 12au7 be useful as a phase inverter?


----------



## mike mike

Bump. Anyone?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, that's a Toshiba. They aren't bad, but I don't like them as well as a Matshushita. IMO they remind me of a 1960's RCA. Nice round lows and highs but they don't have the midrange bark that most of the Philips tubes have. Nothing wrong with trying it and seeing how you like it. I've tried them in my DSL50 and it didn't sound bad, just not the tone I'm looking for.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 12AU7 will neuter your amp in any spot you put it in. Try it and see but I don't think you'll like it.


----------



## mike mike

Thanks for the help. My friend just has a ton of nos tubes, and if it's free why not try it I guess. I have jj ecc83s in my mkiii right now, and a full set of 12ax7r on a shelf, so I can't wait to give it a try


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys have a 7199 tube you might want to trade for a nice 12AX7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I had one, it would be yours. That's a tough number.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found one from tctubes for $16, tested good and guaranteed. It'll be good enough to see if that's the problem with the Ampeg.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a good price for one. Hope your problem is just the tube.


----------



## AC_inacornfield

Any suggestions for the JMP-1 preamp? I don't use tons of gain but I like to have it there if its needed. I also like my rig to be quiet and have a nice crisp distortion sound. I tried some JJ's from Eruotubes and was disgusted by them. Any good suggestions?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you talking NOS or Current Production (CP)?


----------



## RiverRatt

You might get a better response to this specific amp in the main forum or maybe The Tone Zone. I don't believe that any of the regulars here use a JMP-1. 

In general, a nice hot Telefunken smooth plate or maybe a pre-war Ei might have the tones you're looking for. Tele's have a reputation for being "hi-fi" sounding but to me they have that early AC/DC bite to them when you dig in.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Speaking of "Tone Zone"... I spent some quality time with the different Tung-Sols tonight and between the CP standard, the CP Gold-Pin, and that Zenith labeled Tung-Sol... The NOS Zenith is hands down the best one of the three. 

http://www.marshallforum.com/271968-post13.html


----------



## scat7s

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, I'm working on it. I ditched the decongestants as they just make me more cranky and I don't need help with that!
> 
> I tried nature's remedy tonight. My wife made a batch of burritos and when I got home from the office I had one with a couple of Sam Adams Latitude 48 IPA beers and a LARGE side of jalapenos. Between the overdose of hops and peppers, the sinuses are clear for the first time in days, at least for awhile.
> 
> So, are you going to give us a tone report on the Tung-Sol or just pictures??




hey river rat, and everyone else, do a little search on colloidal silver, and dont buy into the 'horror stories" from 'mainstream media', if done right, using pure 99.99% silver, it is safe and extremely effective. you will never catch a cold again. gargle with it b4 you swallow and your teeth and gums will stay healthy too. just an fyi for y'all, something that big pharma will never acknowledge, so you know its good for you! 
ive been using it for a while myself...


----------



## knolen781

I have a marshall amp and wanting to find out what year it is. The serial is 28545. There are not any letters before or after the number. It is a 210 possible a 18w. I tried to upload pics but wouldnt work. Any info would be great. Not sure if tube numbers help or not. if so, two of the tubes are 6Gw8 / ECL86. Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

knolen781 said:


> I have a marshall amp and wanting to find out what year it is. The serial is 28545. There are not any letters before or after the number. It is a 210 possible a 18w. I tried to upload pics but wouldnt work. Any info would be great. Not sure if tube numbers help or not. if so, two of the tubes are 6Gw8 / ECL86. Thanks



Are you sure that one of the tubes isn't an EZ81? I think it is. Sounds like you got a reverb equipped 18 watt amp. Very nice. These were the best of the small amps.

These amps were made between 1965 and early 1967.


----------



## nicoblue

TheGummy said:


> Thanks. Just had a quick browse and found these:
> 
> 2, Matched, Very Rare-RCA 7025A/12AX7A Side "O" Getter on eBay (end time 24-Dec-10 04:12:30 GMT)
> 
> What does the 'Side "O" Getter' refer to? Would they do the trick for V1 and V3 in the configuration you suggested?



Yes those Side Getters were made by RCA for use in Canadian Products, mainly organs. Hence the 7025A, 12AX7A. They are very low noise and excellent, excellent tubes. The Canada is just how things work up here. I have some Mullard's that were made at The Blackburn Plant that have Canada. Anyhos, Happy New Years to All... Peace!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes those RCA Side Getter's are scarce and hard to find.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

nicoblue said:


> Yes those Side Getters were made by RCA for use in Canadian Products, mainly organs. Hence the 7025A, 12AX7A. They are very low noise and excellent, excellent tubes. The Canada is just how things work up here...



Tried 'em yet? How do they sound?


----------



## nicoblue

joshuaaewallen said:


> Tried 'em yet? How do they sound?



I have actually, they are beautiful tubes. They are also long black plates. Very very quiet, clean, very warm, overdrive well, but not too overbearing. I actually love them.


----------



## nicoblue

joshuaaewallen said:


> Tried 'em yet? How do they sound?



Thanks guys


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sexy ladies all in a row.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are the some of my observations, but that's all they are. There were a lot of tubes circulating back then that we know next to nothing about.

-RCA used D-getters on all early 1950s black plates

-All the RCA clear tops I've seen have been 12AU7s and have gray plates with flat sided micas and D getters, although they were using round side getters on their power tubes.

-Sonotone did make clear top 12AX7s but used the RCA style D getter and had gray plates and round micas. I and others thought for a long while that these were RCA tubes, but the EIA number indicates they were indeed manufactured by Sonotone.

-Raytheon is the only comany I've seen that used the "paperclip" thing above the top mica.

-From what I've seen, RCA did use white print on their Baldwin relabeled tubes.

Also, be aware that side-getter 12AX7s seem to be more prone to microphonics than traditional tubes.This might explain why they are such rare tubes - the design just never caught on. All the ones I've scavenged have been from hi-fi amps from the 1950s and some were labeled as 7025s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Going with what Alan said, I don't think these are RCA. They are labeled as made in Canada. Whether this is true or not, I still don't think they are RCA. If they are Sonotone, they would have had to been a special production run with the "O" Getter.

As Alan said, there were a lot of tubes made by and through various manufacturers. They didn't want to let anyone know where they were made back then and we can't tell where they were made 50 years later.


----------



## TheGummy

looking at getting some tung-sol's for the preamp section of the 100w MV.

The place I'm thinking of buying from list 'tung-sol' and 'tung-sol russia', what's the difference? i had a quick search but too many results to filter through.

what kind of gain would a tung-sol 12ax7 give? would they be ok for all positions?

for now I think i just want to get something that will work to a reasonable level for a reasonable price, as all the valves im using were put in by someone else. once i know where i stand i will start to experiment a bit more.


----------



## nicoblue

Hey Guys, Happy New Years. Got a question , did GE Have a Canadian Plant that made 12AX7 or 12AU7's?


----------



## nicoblue

RiverRatt said:


> Here are the some of my observations, but that's all they are. There were a lot of tubes circulating back then that we know next to nothing about.
> 
> -RCA used D-getters on all early 1950s black plates
> 
> -All the RCA clear tops I've seen have been 12AU7s and have gray plates with flat sided micas and D getters, although they were using round side getters on their power tubes.
> 
> -Sonotone did make clear top 12AX7s but used the RCA style D getter and had gray plates and round micas. I and others thought for a long while that these were RCA tubes, but the EIA number indicates they were indeed manufactured by Sonotone.
> 
> -Raytheon is the only comany I've seen that used the "paperclip" thing above the top mica.
> 
> -From what I've seen, RCA did use white print on their Baldwin relabeled tubes.
> 
> Also, be aware that side-getter 12AX7s seem to be more prone to microphonics than traditional tubes.This might explain why they are such rare tubes - the design just never caught on. All the ones I've scavenged have been from hi-fi amps from the 1950s and some were labeled as 7025s.




Its weird, I have pulled all kinds of tubes that have been manufactured in USA to Holland to Germany that say Canada on them, I have heavily researched these and anything I have found any old sales, pictures, people looking for help identifying and it all comes back to being an RCA 7025a Black Plate, Side Getter. 
Thanks for your help guys, I will keep the hunt going. Either way, they are some of the nicest sounding pre amp tubes I have used from Mullard, Amperex, Bugle Boy, GE, Sylvania, Raytheon... Just beautiful.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not saying that they aren't RCA, just that they don't fit the RCA mold. If RCA did make the tubes, it was likely they were a very limited run due to some problem with the design, such as a high failure rate or microphonics, and was soon discontinued, hence the rarity of the tubes.

I started looking for side-getter tubes way back when this thread first started, and I was convinced they were RCA, too. After examining every side getter tube that came along, all the clues, EIA numbers, etc. pointed toward Sonotone. I would say that the most likely scenario is that Sonotone made these tubes for RCA/Baldwin and used round getters instead of D getters due to a temporary parts shortage.

If you really want to check deeper into these tubes, I'd suggest hitting some of the forums where Terry Kilgore, AKA Tube Tramp, AKA Sgt. Overdrive hangs out. If anybody can tell you about their origin, he would be the man.

And yes, the Sonotone side getters I have are some of the best-sounding 12AX7s I own. I hardly ever use them due to their rarity.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TheGummy said:


> looking at getting some tung-sol's for the preamp section of the 100w MV.
> 
> The place I'm thinking of buying from list 'tung-sol' and 'tung-sol russia', what's the difference? i had a quick search but too many results to filter through.
> 
> what kind of gain would a tung-sol 12ax7 give? would they be ok for all positions?
> 
> for now I think i just want to get something that will work to a reasonable level for a reasonable price, as all the valves im using were put in by someone else. once i know where i stand i will start to experiment a bit more.



I've been playing around with these in my TSL...

http://www.marshallforum.com/266850-post12.html

http://www.marshallforum.com/271968-post13.html

For CP tubes they seem pretty decent, but they still don't hold a candle to the NOS Tung-Sol tubes.


----------



## Steve0525

** I know I posted this is the 900 thread, but I wanted to see what you guys thought **

Hey guys, just playing around with the 800 and 900. My 900 has a mysterious tube in v4 that is labeled 5751 USA and has a weird grey dot patter, and on the front is a red lege i cant make out. the rest of the tubes are JJ ecc83s power tubes are 5881WXT sovteks. The 800 has all groove tubes. 

Check out these pics and let me know if you see anything strange, not to familer with the back of the amp. lol what should I do with the USA 5751?
Thanks

Also, before i put tubes back in, should I wipe them down or something???


Strange USA tube, 5751









Rest of the 900 tubes:









800 on top, 900 bottom:





JCM 800


----------



## MM54

That's not a very good picture, but I'd say the 5751 is probably GE by what I can make out of the writing on it and your mention of the 'dot pattern.'


----------



## Steve0525

MM54 said:


> That's not a very good picture, but I'd say the 5751 is probably GE by what I can make out of the writing on it and your mention of the 'dot pattern.'


Best I could do pic wise, any recommendations on where to put it? I was thinking using the JJ's for my 800 and using the 5751 in v2 (just spittballing)


----------



## RiverRatt

You could use the 5751 in V1 for more headroom or you might like it as a phase inverter. I don't think it would be a good V2 tube. 

Matt hit the nail on the head. It is a G.E.


----------



## Steve0525

Thanks, it's in the PI now on my SL-X.

Im going to a place this week, that _Says_ they have NOS tubes. Whats the best priced ones? Tungsol? Mullard? ect. thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

American tubes are cheaper than Philips made tubes. Some tubes are sold as used and tested and some are actually NOS or NIB. Be prepared to pay as much as $60 per tube for a Philips in good condition.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Review fron TC Tubes on a Telefunken Smooth Plate.



> I use my Telefunken in my V2 "clean" position. The natural sound of the guitar's pickups come through uncolored - great for rhythm playing. It also gives a surprisingly good tone when over-driven. Dead quiet - The quietest tube I have. The Telefunken ECC83 smooth plate is as close to manufactured perfection as it gets. "The proof is in the pudding" as the saying goes. RCA claimed thier tubes were good for 30,000 hours. Telefunken are good for 100,000 hours! That is 24 hours a day, 7 days week, for 12-1/2 years. The most reliable ECC83/12AX7 ever made.



How's that for long life?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Gotta kick outta this:




GAS book for Fender,Gibson,PRS,G&L,Martin,Taylor guitar - eBay (item 190486611810 end time Jan-13-11 20:16:27 PST)


----------



## johnfv

thetragichero said:


> got a picture of that bell and howell?...


OK, I am months behind but finally "stole" my NOS 12AU7 tube back from a buddy and took some pics. I got this as a youngster in 1974-75.


----------



## TheGummy

These are the ones listed as 'Tung-Sol RUSSIA', are they what I should be looking for? I'm wary of buying something that isn't what it seems from the print.

Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83/12AX7A/TUNG-SOL/RUSSIA


----------



## BDowell

MartyStrat54 said:


> American tubes are cheaper than Philips made tubes. Some tubes are sold as used and tested and some are actually NOS or NIB. Be prepared to pay as much as $60 per tube for a Philips in good condition.




Marty- I was checking out Josh's preamp testing over in the Tone Zone. On the Matsushita (Sp?), can you let me know in a PM if you have those available?. I'm not too famaliar with them, but nice sound from what I could tell..thx


----------



## joshuaaewallen

TheGummy said:


> These are the ones listed as 'Tung-Sol RUSSIA', are they what I should be looking for? I'm wary of buying something that isn't what it seems from the print.
> 
> Watford Valves :: Product - ECC83/12AX7A/TUNG-SOL/RUSSIA



Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but...

... If those are Russian... They ain't NOS.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Picked up a new friend today. Here are a few pics...































I'm looking toward to putting it through its paces.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just think, Marshall's used to come from the factory with Mullard ECC83's and EL34's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Lookin' good, Josh! I'm interested to hear a side-by-side vs. the Matsushitas.

Marty, welcome back. Where you been? You and Joe have been scarce lately.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well thank you Alan. I come on everyday, but there just doesn't seem to be much action over here. Maybe we did too good of a job and everyone's questions have been answered.


----------



## TheGummy

joshuaaewallen said:


> Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but...
> 
> ... If those are Russian... They ain't NOS.



Nope I'm pretty sure they're not NOS. Are they not really worth going for unless they're NOS? If so, what kind of price difference should I expect?


----------



## solarburn

Guys...I put an AT7 in V1 of the Monza and it didn't neuter it at all. That damn thing has so big of ballz that even a low gain tube in V1 won't tame it. Marty you know how I like to mess with mid gain tones so I thought I'd put one in to see how much it would do. 

Actually what I'm doing now is boosting it with my Danos so its not a straight comparison using just the amp. The drive on the amp is at about 8:30am, the volume is only at 10:30am and the pedal gain is only at about the 10am mark. So everything is set mildly or geared for mid gain saturation, overtones and roll off to clean. I'm taking advantage of the amps power section set like this. After all it is dynamic...

Guess what?! It shows up sloppy playing(my kind). No hiding behind saturation with these dynamic amps is there...?LOL

The AT7/pedal combination sound pretty damn good. The other plus with this is I'm getting some more upper mids. You know the Monza has plenty low end mids. So this lil development is a plus for me. I'm running it into my 112 Veteran 30 right now. You can hear them upper mids coming in on it now. Bet it would sit great in a mix like this...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, welcome back. Where you been? You and Joe have been scarce lately.





MartyStrat54 said:


> Well thank you Alan. I come on everyday, but there just doesn't seem to be much action over here. Maybe we did too good of a job and everyone's questions have been answered.



well... It's still good to see the two of you are still alive and kicking!



RiverRatt said:


> Lookin' good, Josh! I'm interested to hear a side-by-side vs. the Matsushitas.



That I can do. I'm planning on comparing it to a CP Mullard when I get a chance, so I can just as easily line it up with a Matsushita as well.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Just think, Marshall's used to come from the factory with Mullard ECC83's and EL34's.



I guess those'd be considered the "glory days"?



TheGummy said:


> Nope I'm pretty sure they're not NOS. Are they not really worth going for unless they're NOS? If so, what kind of price difference should I expect?



Whether or not they are worth it, only you can decide. Personally, for a current production tube, I think the Tung-Sols are pretty decent sounding tubes, (I've got some sound clips over in the Tone Zone if you wanna compare a little bit), but undeniably the NOS tubes still sound better.

Price-wise... Shop around.


----------



## solarburn

I like the current Tung Sols as well. No they don't have to be NOS to sound good in your amp. As you can see not all of us use the same NOS tubes any ways so it really depends on what you like. I use CP tubes in my amps. I just like certain NOS in particular slots in my amps and really that goes for CP tubes as well. I try the tubes in mine before I decide though. Real world testing...no speculation left in my mind hehe.


----------



## ken361

if they were warmer, they would be nicer


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ken361 said:


> if they were warmer, they would be nicer



Talkin' about the Tung-Sol's?

If so... That's where the NOS Tung-Sol's pull into the lead in my opinion. The CP one's have a lot of full rich harmonic content that I like, but the NOS ones... They've got all that _and_ the extra warm, rich, colorful goodness that make 'em a real first rate tube.

That being said... If you weren't talking Tung-Sol's... Then I'm just talking out my keister!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Guys...I put an AT7 in V1 of the Monza and it didn't neuter it at all. That damn thing has so big of ballz that even a low gain tube in V1 won't tame it. Marty you know how I like to mess with mid gain tones so I thought I'd put one in to see how much it would do.
> 
> Actually what I'm doing now is boosting it with my Danos so its not a straight comparison using just the amp. The drive on the amp is at about 8:30am, the volume is only at 10:30am and the pedal gain is only at about the 10am mark. So everything is set mildly or geared for mid gain saturation, overtones and roll off to clean. I'm taking advantage of the amps power section set like this. After all it is dynamic...
> 
> Guess what?! It shows up sloppy playing(my kind). No hiding behind saturation with these dynamic amps is there...?LOL
> 
> The AT7/pedal combination sound pretty damn good. The other plus with this is I'm getting some more upper mids. You know the Monza has plenty low end mids. So this lil development is a plus for me. I'm running it into my 112 Veteran 30 right now. You can hear them upper mids coming in on it now. Bet it would sit great in a mix like this...



You need to score a good 5751. I've never thought much of the AT7 as a tone tube. The 5751 or a good 12AY7 would probably give you the same results with a better sound. I hear ya about the gain, though. That's a lot like the sound I'm chasing. I never throw any of my weak 12AX7s away - you never know when they might be useful in a higher-gain amp.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You need to score a good 5751. I've never thought much of the AT7 as a tone tube. The 5751 or a good 12AY7 would probably give you the same results with a better sound. I hear ya about the gain, though. That's a lot like the sound I'm chasing. I never throw any of my weak 12AX7s away - you never know when they might be useful in a higher-gain amp.



I had a 5751 and its was a bit stiff. It was a Jan. I might try one again though cause if I remember right I sent it to Marty and he found it was noisy. I think the AT7 with the pedal is what makes it work. i'll try it later with out and see if it works as well. I've always liked the Character of an AT7 in a tone spot. Usually though they were just too weak with full on guitar volume saturation. Their tone was fine to me though. 

The main finding is how it effected the mids of the amp along with the pedal. I think it allowed more of the pedal to influence the upper mids in a good way compared to using the AX7's I had been in V1. Having found this with my Monza doesn't mean it will translate over into other amps. the Monza really has a lower set of ballz and because of that the results are what they are. I hope other tube rollers realize these little factors. I know you know this. My Norm is using the AX7's.


----------



## ken361

joshuaaewallen said:


> Talkin' about the Tung-Sol's?
> 
> If so... That's where the NOS Tung-Sol's pull into the lead in my opinion. The CP one's have a lot of full rich harmonic content that I like, but the NOS ones... They've got all that _and_ the extra warm, rich, colorful goodness that make 'em a real first rate tube.
> 
> That being said... If you weren't talking Tung-Sol's... Then I'm just talking out my keister!


yeah tung sol


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ken361 said:


> yeah tung sol



Whew! I spend so much time talking out my keister instead of my head that this is actually quite a relief!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

How does one go about trying to guage the age of this tube?



joshuaaewallen said:


> ...


----------



## RiverRatt

What's the code say? It looks like an I63 so it should have that and a 4-digit code printed low on one side that starts with a "B". You can tell what year and week it was made with that code. I'm guessing early to mid 1960's.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> What's the code say? It looks like an I63 so it should have that and a 4-digit code printed low on one side that starts with a "B". You can tell what year and week it was made with that code. I'm guessing early to mid 1960's.



In vertical lettering is printed, "1022 - 540", and horizontally it looks like either "B5E1", or "85E1". Above that is what looks like "163"...


----------



## RiverRatt

Blackburn factory, first week of May, 1965.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Huh... Far out. Looks like the real deal then. That's cool. I've gotta a bloody head cold, but once all the crap has cleared my brain and I can hear properly again, this'll be a fun one to roll. Awesome. Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

So Matsushitas are supposed to be made on old Mullard equipment?


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> So Matsushitas are supposed to be made on old Mullard equipment?



No, that's just eBay shite trying to sell Matsushita tubes as something they aren't. I have some 'shitas that date back to the 1950's. Do you really think that Mullard sold all their equipment to another Philips-owned company in the heyday of their valve production? Like most Philips companies, Mullard and Matsushita shared many manufacturing techniques and used many of the same components (plates, getters, etc...) but they aren't "Japanese Mullards" any more than a Mercedes is a German-made Chrysler.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> No, that's just eBay shite trying to sell Matsushita tubes as something they aren't. I have some 'shitas that date back to the 1950's. Do you really think that Mullard sold all their equipment to another Philips-owned company in the heyday of their valve production? Like most Philips companies, Mullard and Matsushita shared many manufacturing techniques and used many of the same components (plates, getters, etc...) but they aren't "Japanese Mullards" any more than a Mercedes is a German-made Chrysler.



Gotta love sifting through an internet filled with tripe just to get to the truth of the matter!

Thanks for your info Alan. As always... Rock on mate!

___

PS. As requested I _will_ do a head to head comparison w/ the Matsushitas I have and CP Mullards when I get a chance. Thanks again mate!


----------



## cagamp1

I have never found a thing that connects Mullard to a Japanese plant.

Brent Jesse's site exclaims Mullard help set up the Japanese plant.

A tidbit: A matched pair of TS-5881 tubes cost $11 in 1959-60.


----------



## topcat 70

Is it just me or do Nos pre's have alot more gain than Cp's.


----------



## cagamp1

topcat 70 said:


> Is it just me or do Nos pre's have alot more gain than Cp's.


 
I've mentioned that topic before...maybe this thread...maybe another.

A lot of CP preamp tubes test low compared to NOS or even old used stock for that matter. Don't take that wrong...they don't test bad, just lower on average.

I should state that I am speaking in terms of transconductance (efficiency).
Marty, in the next post, is commentiing on a tube's "life" test...how long it has left to live...one pin in the grave, ha ha.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good question. NOS and old stock tubes can be higher gain than CP tubes, but you need to test them. If you go by what has been stated as far as tube life, an old stock tube can be halfway worn out and still be strong. However, a lot of pre tubes are sold and they are on their last leg. The only thing is to test them so you know what you have.

An audio test is somewhat accurate. If you A/B a tube and one of them is stout, you will know it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> I've mentioned that topic before...maybe this thread...maybe another.
> 
> A lot of CP preamp tubes test low compared to NOS or even old used stock for that matter. Don't take that wrong...they don't test bad, just lower on average.



That's right. The target is 100/100. Some 12AX7 CP tubes measure around 88/88. Some new old stock tubes measure around 90 to 92 per triode.

I posted a graph of the average tube testing for CP and NOS tubes. It's somewhere in the bowels of this thread. I wouldn't know where to find it.


----------



## topcat 70

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's right. The target is 100/100. Some 12AX7 CP tubes measure around 88/88. Some new old stock tubes measure around 90 to 92 per triode.
> 
> I posted a graph of the average tube testing for CP and NOS tubes. It's somewhere in the bowels of this thread. I wouldn't know where to find it.



So the lower the number the less gain it has.


----------



## MM54

While we're discussing Mullards, please help me figure out something I've never understood - I have a tube labeled IEC Mullard (it sounds great). The thing is, there's no etching on the glass with a code, it's got the seams at the top and looks good (and was found in a box of tubes from the 60's) but I don't really get it. Anything?

Here are a couple massive pictures:
http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/IEC Mullard 12AX7/Mullard-1.jpg
http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/IEC Mullard 12AX7/Mullard-2.jpg


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmm...slant getter. Could be a relabeled Valvo.






Or maybe a Herleen tube by Amperex, Mini Watt or Philips.

Look at it under a black light and see if the etching is there. All Philips tubes should have an acid etch.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Myles Rose is the guy I was trying to think of that did a massive research paper on CP and NOS 12AX7's.


----------



## MM54

Hmm, the blacklight is a good idea. Next time I get a few consecutive free moments (ha!) I'll take a look and get back to you, thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

Could be one of these, too. I've never seen a Matsushita that had an etched Philips code (not to say that they don't exist).


----------



## cagamp1

*RiverRatt, MM54*

Do those slant getters have the mC2 code?

IEC from what I know is International Electric Company, was a distributor/supplier who obtained brand and marketed through Mullard.
They also marketed International Servicemaster I believe as well.

Philips/Mullard were partners and shared lots. Philips was actually partners with quite a few it seems.


----------



## RiverRatt

Philips was the parent company of all of 'em - Valvo, Amperex, Mullard, Ei, Siemens und Halske, Miniwatt, Bel, Matsushita, and several more I can't remember. Do you have a copy of the Philips factory code book? It lists all the Philips companies, their factory symbol, how to decipher the many different factory, type and date codes, it's invaluable if you're messin' with NOS. Not all of their factories made receiving tubes, but it'll give you some insight on the ones that did. Here's the most recent revision I could find:

http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB-v9.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

...and no, none of my slant getters have that code. AFAIK, that getter was only used by Valvo and Matsushita.


----------



## cagamp1

topcat 70 said:


> So the lower the number the less gain it has.


 
Well this is gettin a little more involved.
If you are asking about a tube tester value, there are two major types of testers. An emission tester and a transconductance tester.

An emission tester will give a simple value indicating electron emission which will tell you how worn your tube is at that point, like the old testers in the drug stores...tech models were better. 100% = new tube. But it does not give you a gain or performance indicator.

A transconductance tester measures the actual operation of the tube. It gives a value based on performance. These are more sophisticated. Every tester reads differently depending on setup and scale. You have to understand the specific tester and its numbers. But it can be converted into percentages. On these a higher number equates to higher performance = higher gain. Gain is relative to performance. These testers also perform various other test. The life test will indicate the tubes reserve for normal performance.

Man, I hope I didn't carry on too much but in actuality it is much more complicated than that. Trying to keep it simple.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> ...and no, none of my slant getters have that code. AFAIK, that getter was only used by Valvo and Matsushita.


 
Thanks, that's a nice copy (link).
I had links to the codes but not as nice as that one.

"mC" is TT code for ECC83. I've seen other tubes with slants, like Philips brand. Those are nice tubes from what I understand...don't have any.

I stated that I could not find a connection between Matsushitas and Mullard except for the plant setup info. Matsushitas was in business for a long time. I think at one point they were set up to make specific tubes for all of those "Philips companies". So the only way to tell the difference between Mullard, Valvo, Philips, etc. and Matsushitas would be by the manufacture codes. If they aint there then???...well you know.

On a good note I read somewhere that they did put out good quality and had European supervision.

*Do they have the plant codes?*


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I can't find a plant code on any of mine. I've got a few old Matsushitas from around 1958 that have a slanted D getter, long gray plates, and they are some incredible tubes. Joe (SolarBurn) has a few of those, too.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have yet to try out a Matsushita... I have heard great things from reading on here.. That is on my to do list. 

Hows the sound compared to a Telefunken or Mullard?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> No, I can't find a plant code on any of mine. I've got a few old Matsushitas from around 1958 that have a slanted D getter, long gray plates, and they are some incredible tubes. Joe (SolarBurn) has a few of those, too.



I'd like to lay hands on a slant d getter, and standard, to compare to the slant (round) getters that I've got.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> No, I can't find a plant code on any of mine. I've got a few old Matsushitas from around 1958 that have a slanted D getter, long gray plates, and they are some incredible tubes. Joe (SolarBurn) has a few of those, too.


 
I don't really have foriegn vintage preamp tubes around. I have to look into that later. I have American stuff. I have some GE 20 degree D slants...ha ha ha. Oopps, I forgot the 4 Tele smooth plates in my Scott. I have those...not slants.

*BluesRocker*, what I gather about those slants, including the Matsushita too I guess, is that they are close but not quite like the old Telefunkens.

Gotta go to sleep.


----------



## topcat 70

cagamp1 said:


> Well this is gettin a little more involved.
> If you are asking about a tube tester value, there are two major types of testers. An emission tester and a transconductance tester.
> 
> An emission tester will give a simple value indicating electron emission which will tell you how worn your tube is at that point, like the old testers in the drug stores...tech models were better. 100% = new tube. But it does not give you a gain or performance indicator.
> 
> A transconductance tester measures the actual operation of the tube. It gives a value based on performance. These are more sophisticated. Every tester reads differently depending on setup and scale. You have to understand the specific tester and its numbers. But it can be converted into percentages. On these a higher number equates to higher performance = higher gain. Gain is relative to performance. These testers also perform various other test. The life test will indicate the tubes reserve for normal performance.
> 
> Man, I hope I didn't carry on too much but in actuality it is much more complicated than that. Trying to keep it simple.



Thanks for the reply.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> I'd like to lay hands on a slant d getter, and standard, to compare to the slant (round) getters that I've got.



I'll send you one that you can try... not keep 

Those things are scarce and I only have 2 or 3 good ones. I have one that tests high but it's noisy. PM me your address and I'll hook you up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'll send you one that you can try... not keep
> 
> Those things are scarce and I only have 2 or 3 good ones. I have one that tests high but it's noisy. PM me your address and I'll hook you up.



No keepsies? 

 ... No worries mate. A loaner would be cool. Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> I don't really have foriegn vintage preamp tubes around. I have to look into that later. I have American stuff. I have some GE 20 degree D slants...ha ha ha. Oopps, I forgot the 4 Tele smooth plates in my Scott. I have those...not slants.
> 
> *BluesRocker*, what I gather about those slants, including the Matsushita too I guess, is that they are close but not quite like the old Telefunkens.
> 
> Gotta go to sleep.



The ones I have are closer to a Mullard but a little more rude, if that makes sense. They don't have that refined, hi-fi response that a Tele smooth plate has.

We chased the Philips rabbit around and around earlier in this thread. I don't think we got much past what info is in the Factory Code guide. Of course, all our info is based on the stock we have on-hand and personal experience, which leaves a lot of holes. I'm just glad we've got another tube hound on here who's as into this old glass as the rest of us and can help chase some of this stuff down.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> No keepsies?
> 
> ... No worries mate. A loaner would be cool. Thanks!



If I had more, maybe, but I'm dipping into my own stash here


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> The ones I have are closer to a Mullard but a little more rude, if that makes sense. They don't have that refined, hi-fi response that a Tele smooth plate has.
> 
> We chased the Philips rabbit around and around earlier in this thread. I don't think we got much past what info is in the Factory Code guide. Of course, all our info is based on the stock we have on-hand and personal experience, which leaves a lot of holes. I'm just glad we've got another tube hound on here who's as into this old glass as the rest of us and can help chase some of this stuff down.


 
I just started getting more into tubes, new or old, within the last year or two. Just from reading things here and there I learn a little more each day. It seems most companies of any particualr industry are tied together in lots of ways...corporate nepotism. They all had their hands in each others back pockets.

Did you know the both GE and Westinghouse sold through RCA brand. The two companies were the two biggest American rivals from what I gather...makes no sense. And all of the American companies are tied at the hip just like the European counterparts. All you can do is look at tube construction, which changed as years passed, and match that up with date and plant code.

First hand experience is best and is somtimes is about all you gonna get. A lot of the people out there with the knowledge from that era are mostly gone or out of touch. I tried gettin info on a kinda amp I thought was special and it dates to the early 70's. It's got Leo, Tom and Forrest written all over it...at least to me. But when I tell others about it they look at me like I'm crazy. Those guys are gone and I get no answers from the current people.

Story:
I have a speaker guy who was in the business for over forty years, retired and does side jobs. Brought him some early Jensen P8P's and told him to take special care. He says "Haven't seen anything like this for decades." He's gotta figure how to recone them and there are no OEM parts. He calls an older buddy who fills him in on it. Next time I see him he tells me he got info on the speakers and that man he says " You got some special speakers there." with suprise. He says those are probably the best 8" speakers ever made, have the best full range response of any speaker and were high power for its day. I looked at him, smiled and said "I know, approx 80-15KHz @ 30-35 watts...that's why I told you to take good care of them." He laughed. He's still gottem...can't wait to get them back. *The point is that even the old guys don't know everything.* ( I should say* older* guys, ha ha.)


Almost forgot to mention and you may have this already, but _Tube Lore_ is a good reference book.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a question. Has anyone seen a guide as to the amplification factor of octal preamp tubes? I am getting a decent collection and I'm thinking about putting together one of those little Weber champs with octal pre's. I have 6SN7, 6SJ7, 6SL7, etc.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I have a question. Has anyone seen a guide as to the amplification factor of octal preamp tubes? I am getting a decent collection and I'm thinking about putting together one of those little Weber champs with octal pre's. I have 6SN7, 6SJ7, 6SL7, etc.


 
Dude, don't take me wrong when I ask this question, cause you did ask friendship.

Are you messin with me, pullin my leg? Like I say on my profile, I really don't mind anything that goes on here, it makes me think. You guys are talking tubes all the time and then you ask that question...well it throws me. Just shoot straight and tell me yes or no.

I've been watching this forum regularly lately. I have noticed a lot of newer members, and older members for that matter, with nice stuff asking very abnormal questions for people who own that type of gear and supposedly have that much experience. Looks like people trying to punk others. I don't mind reading and even replying to some...just for anyone who is serious and my own reasons.

I'm a very skeptical person with stuff like this...sorry.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> If I had more, maybe, but I'm dipping into my own stash here



No worries mate, just givin' ya crap...  ... That being said... Aside from giving crap (of which I have plenty)... How can I return the favor?


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> Dude, don't take me wrong when I ask this question, cause you did ask friendship.
> 
> Are you messin with me, pullin my leg? Like I say on my profile, I really don't mind anything that goes on here, it makes me think. You guys are talking tubes all the time and then you ask that question...well it throws me. Just shoot straight and tell me yes or no.
> 
> I've been watching this forum regularly lately. I have noticed a lot of newer members, and older members for that matter, with nice stuff asking very abnormal questions for people who own that type of gear and supposedly have that much experience. Looks like people trying to punk others. I don't mind reading and even replying to some...just for anyone who is serious and my own reasons.
> 
> I'm a very skeptical person with stuff like this...sorry.



No, I've just never messed with octal pre's. I run across them and know what they are, like a 6SN7 is roughly the equivalent of a 12AU7, but it's just not info that I've needed to know. Yeah, I can dig it up if I want, but last night I was lazy and drunk and thought someone might have the info on-hand. 

Nobody here ever claimed to be an expert. We just share info and tubes. If you've read much of this thread, you'll see that some of us didn't know a damned thing when we started this. It's been a learning experience and we're still learning. Chill out and enjoy the ride.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> No, I've just never messed with octal pre's. I run across them and know what they are, like a 6SN7 is roughly the equivalent of a 12AU7, but it's just not info that I've needed to know. Yeah, I can dig it up if I want, but last night I was lazy and drunk and thought someone might have the info on-hand.
> 
> Nobody here ever claimed to be an expert. We just share info and tubes. If you've read much of this thread, you'll see that some of us didn't know a damned thing when we started this. It's been a learning experience and we're still learning. Chill out and enjoy the ride.


 
Saturday night...drunk...ok.
That's kool...sorry then.
Well if you hadn't got the info already...
6sj7 = 19
6sl7 = 70
6sn7 = 20

Life is a joy. You have to adjust your perspective to suit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Not sloppy drunk. My strat was in the hospital and my wife and I went to Jackson TN and picked it up yesterday. While up there I picked up a 1.75L bottle of Pinot Noir and we had italian food last night. It couldn't have been too bad - there's still wine in the bottle and my head doesn't hurt.

Thanks for the tube data. I never payed any attention to octal pre's much before, but I've been buying them when I run across them really cheap. I picked up a Tung-Sol 6SJ7GT yesterday that was NOS NIB and it got me wondering. I was going to dig up some old Fender schematics and maybe have a go at it. I know the 5C1 uses a 6SJ7 and that's why I wanted the info. 19 sounds way low for what it is. I was expecting something closer to a 12AY7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd love to have an amp that used 6SL7's. There are some advantages to having the larger octal based tubes. They are more rugged and last a lot longer.


----------



## MM54

Something makes me think I have a few 6SL7's if anyone's interested. I'll try to find time to check my stash tomorrow, but I know I have a few 6SN7's, I think a handful of 6SL7's, and maybe maybe maybe some 6SJ7's... those numbers all look right. If I remember correctly, most of them are the metal-housed tubes I believe (except a couple).


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd love to have an amp that used 6SL7's. There are some advantages to having the larger octal based tubes. They are more rugged and last a lot longer.


 
Yes, it's a bigger more manly 5751.

Also 6sc7 = 70u ...forerunner to 12ax7.


----------



## ken361

you guys see these tubes b4?
Roberts RetroValve, Inc.


----------



## solarburn

Interesting. Like to hear more out of these. Wonder how much they'll go for...


----------



## ken361

i emailed them ill let you know


----------



## cagamp1

RetroValves??? What so retro about those anyway?

Now honestly, why would you want to convert your tube amp to a hybrid?
(solid state preamp & valve power section)
I wouldn't.
And if you did want the mix, there are plenty of stomp boxes and processors that would do a much better job.

ADD: I guess it is a kool gadget and to each his own. Some people may like them for certain stuff.


----------



## ken361

cagamp1 said:


> RetroValves??? What so retro about those anyway?
> 
> Now honestly, why would you want to convert your tube amp to a hybrid?
> (solid state preamp & valve power section)
> 
> And if you did want the mix, there are plenty of stomp boxes and processors that would do a much better job.
> 
> I wouldn't.



Ah! i was thinking the same thing just a few minutes ago, maybe add 1 tube though


----------



## ken361

I can say that we expect the price to be comparable to a high quality 12AX7 vacuum tube and the price should be the same for the various gain models. Would you like me to keep you posted as things progress?
quote:


----------



## RiverRatt

It's interesting, but if they are more than $20 a pop, I won't be trying any out. I've got enough NOS to last me awhile. 

I'd like to see somebody put this much time and effort into actually producing a top-quality 12AX7. Last time I checked, the Ei factory is still for sale.


----------



## MM54

How much do they want? I still say we pull together all the major contributors of the forum and buy it


----------



## ken361

martys in


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, this is interesting. For the first time since the mid 2000's, the Ei website has been updated. Does this mean............................

Ei Elites - Highest Quality Vacuum Tube Design


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, this is interesting. For the first time since the mid 2000's, the Ei website has been updated. Does this mean............................
> 
> Ei Elites - Highest Quality Vacuum Tube Design



It mentions Svetlana, I would venture that they've been bought. 

Damn. What I'd do to get my hands on a set of tooling to make 12AX7's


----------



## RiverRatt

That would be sweet to have Ei back in business IF they can get the quality back up to pre-war Yugoslavia quality. It wasn't great then, but it was a damn sight better than the crap coming out of Europe nowadays.

Maybe this is why Winged C/Svetlana tubes have been so expensive lately. They were raising money to buy the Ei plant.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

ken361 said:


> you guys see these tubes b4?
> Roberts RetroValve, Inc.




Looks like the Watts ToneGrinder (except these light up)... I'm skeptical.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Looks like the Watts ToneGrinder (except these light up)... I'm skeptical.



That's exactly what I was thinking, too. The lights are cool, but they look like those things they sell in the back corner of Spencer's.


----------



## cagamp1

The RetroValve site does not list prices and I couldn't find anyone who sells the stuff.

They do have demo clips. Give a listen. I found that they sound somewhat like simulators. Give your opinions.
That goes for ToneGrinders too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking, too. The lights are cool, but they look like those things they sell in the back corner of Spencer's.



The Ei's on the other hand do look interesting... Probably just more false hope, but... Interesting...


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, they won't have Philips telling them what to do, so I'm concerned about the quality. However, they do for a fact have the original Telefunken tooling which they bought sometime around the late 1960's. My DSL was made in 2000 and when I bought it in 2008 it still had a couple of the original Marshall-labeled Ei ECC83 smooth plates still in it. They tested higher than new and sounded great.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Retro's are just another Tone Grinder. It just has enough differences to get a patent on them. As CAG said, it would be like turning you all tube into a hybrid. We talked about the Tone Grinders many moons ago. The verdict was not positive. Also, the Tone Grinders were limited to use in certain slots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, this is interesting. For the first time since the mid 2000's, the Ei website has been updated. Does this mean............................
> 
> Ei Elites - Highest Quality Vacuum Tube Design



I hope New Sensor hasn't acquired them. I did a search, but I came up empty.

The main factor is materials used. Buying the factory doesn't mean shit if they use crappy materials. This would be the case with New Sensor where quantity prevails over quality.

Remember. In the good ole days, a tube was built to last for many thousands of hours. Your reputation depended on long lasting tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Thanks for bringing me down mate...


----------



## cagamp1

Ei Elektronska Industija is owned by Telekom Sebija (Serbian govt. owned). 51% of holdings are on sale as we speak to be settled November of this year.

I'm guessing that ROSEL (JSC Ruselectronsics), who owns JSC Svetlana, wants to get their hands on some of the sale and are anticipating the aquisition of Ei. Therefore the "will be online soon" comment...that is if Serbia doesn't back out again. This appears to have been going on for years.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buying the factory doesn't mean shit if they use crappy materials.



Actually, in _this instance,_ it DOES.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Actually, in _this instance,_ it DOES.



Kinda have to agree w/ ya there. Try as ya might, ya just can't make honey out of horse crap.



____________________

On a side note... Been playing through that Matsushita slant getter a lot lately, and I am absolutely digging the way it handles the mids on my TSL. It just nails that 80's hair tone... Tonight it was mainly Cinderella's "Gypsy Road" and assorted Leppard tunes from High 'N Dry... That thing's a sweet V1 tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Alan... Does this look familiar?






... I'm not sure if I'll have opportunity to run any tests w/ this baby this weekend or not, but I am definitely chomping at the bit, so first chance I get I'll plug 'er in and let ya know how it goes. Thanks again for the loaner mate!



> *BOB THE CHICKEN*
> 
> 
> Bob came home drunk one night, slid into bed beside his sleeping wife, and fell into a deep slumber.
> He awoke before the Pearly Gates, where St. Peter said, 'You died in your sleep, Bob.'
> 
> Bob was stunned. 'I'm dead? No, I can't be! I've got too much to live for. Send me back!'
> St. Peter said, 'I'm sorry, but there's only one way you can go back, and that is as a chicken.'
> 
> Bob was devastated, but begged St. Peter to send him to a farm near his home....
> 
> The next thing he knew, he was covered with feathers,clucking and pecking the ground.
> 
> A rooster strolled past. 'So, you're the new hen, huh? How's your first day here?'
> 
> 'Not bad,' replied Bob the hen, 'but I have this strange feeling inside. Like I'm gonna explode!'
> 
> 'You're ovulating,' explained the rooster.
> 
> Don't tell me you've never laid an egg before?'
> 'Never,' said Bob.
> 
> 'Well, just relax and let it happen,' says the rooster.'It's no big deal.'
> 
> He did, and a few uncomfortable seconds later, out popped an egg! He was overcome with emotion as he experienced motherhood. He soon laid another egg -- his joy was overwhelming. As he was about to lay his third egg, he felt a smack on the back of his head, and heard.....
> 
> "BOB, wake up! You Pooped in the bed!"
> 
> Getting OLD just ain't what they said it would be.



  

















And now back to our regularly scheduled programming...


----------



## thrawn86

LOL's Josh!


----------



## solarburn

I jus got a boner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I jus got a boner!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



TMI, mate. TMI.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I saw where it had been delivered today. That's one of the best tubes in my collection. Enjoy!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I saw where it had been delivered today. That's one of the best tubes in my collection. Enjoy!



I assure you, enjoyment *will* occur! Thanks again mate, and rest assured it'll find it's way back home to you as snug as a bug in a rug.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I saw where it had been delivered today. That's one of the best tubes in my collection. Enjoy!



Mine too!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Mine too!



Well, I LOVE my shita slant getter tubes, so if this is 1/100th as nice as that... It will indeed be a struggle to send it back home to Alan... 



joshuaaewallen said:


> ... Been playing through that Matsushita slant getter a lot lately, and I am absolutely digging the way it handles the mids on my TSL. It just nails that 80's hair tone... Tonight it was mainly Cinderella's "Gypsy Road" and assorted Leppard tunes from High 'N Dry... That thing's a sweet V1 tube.


----------



## solarburn

I really liked it in V1 of the DSL. Thought its character came through best in that slot not that you shouldn't try it in V2...

It sounded best in my Marshall and not as special in the NT or Monza. I feel it accentuates that mid voicing the Marshall already has and puts a bit of hair on it...not that shitty fizzy hair...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to a big party one night. I knew the guy who was throwing it. He told me around 2 AM that I could spend the night. The party cleared out at around 4 AM. Around 8 AM, I heard what sounded like screams. I was sort of bombed, but I got up. The screams led me to a back bedroom. The door was partially opened. I opened the door and looked in. Standing in the room was a girl who had shit sprayed all over her back. The bed was full of watery shit. (The mattress was ruined.) The "shitor" was still passed out. The stench was overbearing. Doug, the guy who owned the home had to get a guy to help him take the mattress out to his burn pit. By then, his whole house smelled like shit. They got the "shitor" to wake up. He was in a stupor and didn't realize fully what he had done. Doug had to wash some of his clothes to get him out of his house.

A few weeks later, I ran into Doug. He told me that the girl I had discovered in the room was the "shitor's" wife. SHE FILED FOR DIVORCE OVER THE SHITTING THE BED INCIDENT.

Remember: Don't ever lay an egg when you are dreaming. Especially a "brown" egg.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went to a big party one night. I knew the guy who was throwing it. He told me around 2 AM that I could spend the night. The party cleared out at around 4 AM. Around 8 AM, I heard what sounded like screams. I was sort of bombed, but I got up. The screams led me to a back bedroom. The door was partially opened. I opened the door and looked in. Standing in the room was a girl who had shit sprayed all over her back. The bed was full of watery shit. (The mattress was ruined.) The "shitor" was still passed out. The stench was overbearing. Doug, the guy who owned the home had to get a guy to help him take the mattress out to his burn pit. By then, his whole house smelled like shit. They got the "shitor" to wake up. He was in a stupor and didn't realize fully what he had done. Doug had to wash some of his clothes to get him out of his house.
> 
> A few weeks later, I ran into Doug. He told me that the girl I had discovered in the room was the "shitor's" wife. SHE FILED FOR DIVORCE OVER THE SHITTING THE BED INCIDENT.
> 
> Remember: Don't ever lay an egg when you are dreaming. Especially a "brown" egg.



You crazee bastid!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yikes! That is seriously messed up!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I want to go take a shower now.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I've often heard that truth is stranger than fiction, but not that it's more disgusting...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

For a change of subject... The current time is 10:37pm, the temperature is -9° and dropping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What a shitty way to break up a marriage.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Da dum dum! (the drums roll for Marty, the master of the pun)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

How's everyone out there in Tube Land doing tonight? Marty, you're on a roll... Anything to add?


----------



## RiverRatt

We've got snow. I've been sitting in playing the Tweaker head all afternoon and really digging the AC tonestack. It's so ridiculously easy to get everything from Fender clean to Marshall crunch to Vox chime.

I got home early today, around 3 p.m. Of course, all the kids and the wife were home due to school being canceled. Man, that is one fun little amp to play with! I've been running some Tung-Sol 6V6s in it but I think I may put the Tung-Sol 5881s back in. They have more headroom than the 6V6s and really do all the tones well. The 6V6s break up a lot earlier. 

I should have put my Ampeg on my bench and gone over it part by part. I still can't get it running. It's somewhere after the two channels feed into the power section but it's not the PI. I put a new 7199 in it and an OT in it and nothing's changed. I thought I was getting a pristine amp for $50 but apparently at one time some tech broke some of the traces on the board near the power tubes and jumpered them. There are a couple I just don't understand at all, the rest are feeding the OT. I'm beginning to think there must be a bad resistor somewhere in that area. I've got good voltages everywhere I know to check on the output side. I would admit defeat and send it in for repair, but...

Our asshole utility company called yesterday concerned with our utility usage. We went from roughly $180 per month to around $600. We didn't use that much more electricity, but the TVA can charge a "demand" surcharge for pretty much whatever they want. I guess there goes my gear hunting for the month (and probably the next few as well).


----------



## joshuaaewallen

It's about -20° this morning. No matter how you slice it, that us just plain bloody cold!

That tweaker sounds like a fun little amp Alan. I looked at one for just a couple minutes a month or two ago, but didn't really have time to play it... I may have to swing in to GC and plug in sometime soon... 

So how in the heck can the power company justify that kinda increase if you aren't using more power? Isn't there anything that can be done to fight that?


----------



## GuiltySparc

Finally got around to take a quick vid of the RFT in my TSL100. 

RFT in V1, JJs in the V2-3, JJ E34Ls in the power section. Regular 1960A slant cab and using a keeley sd-1 as a boost. Thinking about picking up a tung sol to try in V2.

Guitar is an ibanez JS1200 with a Mo'Joe bridge pup and the PAF Joe neck pup.

First time trying to host something from google docs, so i apologize if it doesnt work...lol

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx...IxNjgtNjA2NTY0NWZmZmQx&hl=en&authkey=CLvNsoUD


----------



## solarburn

Sounds good man. I already like them RFT's anyways hehe. Thanx for post'n.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

GuiltySparc said:


> Finally got around to take a quick vid of the RFT in my TSL100.
> 
> RFT in V1, JJs in the V2-3, JJ E34Ls in the power section. Regular 1960A slant cab and using a keeley sd-1 as a boost. Thinking about picking up a tung sol to try in V2.
> 
> Guitar is an ibanez JS1200 with a Mo'Joe bridge pup and the PAF Joe neck pup.
> 
> First time trying to host something from google docs, so i apologize if it doesnt work...lol
> 
> https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx...IxNjgtNjA2NTY0NWZmZmQx&hl=en&authkey=CLvNsoUD



Sounds really nice. Very nice.


----------



## solarburn

Here I neutered the amp a bit by using a 12AT7 in V1 but I goosed it a little with a pedal to make up for some of that slots loss of gain. The combination works out well and yes it does sound different than just using a 12AX7 and no boost. Most of the reason I'm using both here is I find that I get some higher mids coming in along with better clean up if I want with roll off. The Monza has a thick bottom. Just flavoring is all I'm doing and its another mid gain tone I like. The cab is a 112 loaded with a Veteran 30. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43BrJWDI-zA]YouTube - Mullard 12AT7 in V1 and a Jan Phillips 12Ax7 in V2(PI) Monza amp.[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, I recently acquired a couple of old 12AT7s. I pulled a Mullard and a Telefunken out of an old CB radio before I sold it. These are the real deal. I haven't tried them in anything - I was just hanging on to them in case an old Fender amp shows up at my house unexpectedly. You never know about those things. Seems like every time I sell off some oddballs like that, I inevitably find a use for them a month later. I'll send 'em to you to try out if you're interested.

BTW, I told you before, but nice playing and nice tone!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, I recently acquired a couple of old 12AT7s. I pulled a Mullard and a Telefunken out of an old CB radio before I sold it. These are the real deal. I haven't tried them in anything - I was just hanging on to them in case an old Fender amp shows up at my house unexpectedly. You never know about those things. Seems like every time I sell off some oddballs like that, I inevitably find a use for them a month later. I'll send 'em to you to try out if you're interested.
> 
> BTW, I told you before, but nice playing and nice tone!



I've always liked what AT7's do for soloing. Just need to get enough gain in there and it can get some neat dynamics. I wouldn't use them in every amp though. Doesn't work like that across the board.

I think I would like to try those 2 out Alan. Send em' on over poor, lonely AT7's.LOL!


----------



## RiverRatt

Will do.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here I neutered the amp a bit by using a 12AT7 in V1 but I goosed it a little with a pedal to make up for some of that slots loss of gain. The combination works out well and yes it does sound different than just using a 12AX7 and no boost. Most of the reason I'm using both here is I find that I get some higher mids coming in along with better clean up if I want with roll off. The Monza has a thick bottom. Just flavoring is all I'm doing and its another mid gain tone I like. The cab is a 112 loaded with a Veteran 30.
> 
> YouTube - Mullard 12AT7 in V1 and a Jan Phillips 12Ax7 in V2(PI) Monza amp.



Just curious mate... Do you have any clips w/out the OD pedal for comparison's sake?


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Just curious mate... Do you have any clips w/out the OD pedal for comparison's sake?



Pm'd ya one.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Pm'd ya one.



For the record... Sounds Killer bro!


----------



## solarburn

Alan's gonna work on getting me a sample of his Tweaker amp. You know that thing can take different power tubes in it too...even El34's. I want to hear how "Marshally" it can get hehe. My Monza won't do Marshall. Dr Z has his own sounds.

As soon as I get another Marshall I will be putting up clips. Damn be'n po'! I love roll'n tubes in a Marshall. My other 2 don't react as much to tube changes as my DSL did. Alan says the same thing on his. Seemed to be a great amp to tune with tubes. Ya know I hate that the models of Marshall I want are their most expensive ones. Oh well...still, I will get one sooner or later.

Josh...your TSL rips man! Feel the goodness haha. Oh...put some tube change clips/vids here too! You play that classic shizz I like. That Thin Lizzy clip killed! I know you have a bunch of clips already but a good ole vid is much more fun. Especially if those strippers show up at the house...


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are those 12AT7s, Joe. The Tele is a diamond bottom, the Mullard has a Blackburn code B5E2 (1965).


----------



## solarburn

That's some old classic glass right there. Can't you feel the nostalgia...

Great pics by the way. We can see them really well.

This is the Mullard I have.

http://thetubestore.com/mul12atcv.html


----------



## MM54

Can anyone explain why these CP EH 12AU7's I have are marked as having a gm of 70? Shouldn't it be like, 19? Are all CP ECC82's trying to be 5751s, because I need a couple AU7's other than the two NOS I have.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Plugged in Alan's D-Getter tonight... Holy crap that thing has a personality unto itself! I recorded a few crappy clips that I'll throw up on the Audition thread as soon as get 'em dissected and uploaded, but holy wow I like this tube...

Gonna be a tough one to send home!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Plugged in Alan's D-Getter tonight... Holy crap that thing has a personality unto itself! I recorded a few crappy clips that I'll throw up on the Audition thread as soon as get 'em dissected and uploaded, but holy wow I like this tube...
> 
> Gonna be a tough one to send home!



Its a great V1 isn't it!? I fully understand your anxiety of having to part with it...


----------



## solarburn

I'm curious to hear what that Telefunken AT7 will sound like...


----------



## GuiltySparc

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sounds good man. I already like them RFT's anyways hehe. Thanx for post'n.





joshuaaewallen said:


> Sounds really nice. Very nice.



Thanks dudes, i'm thinking about trying out a tung sol in V2.


----------



## solarburn

GuiltySparc said:


> Thanks dudes, i'm thinking about trying out a tung sol in V2.



Look familiar? This is what I have...a few more than this though hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Oh and throw that Tung sol in there. Bet it sounds great...


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Plugged in Alan's D-Getter tonight... Holy crap that thing has a personality unto itself! I recorded a few crappy clips that I'll throw up on the Audition thread as soon as get 'em dissected and uploaded, but holy wow I like this tube...
> 
> Gonna be a tough one to send home!



Told ya! Here's her sister. I picked this one up off eBay a month or two ago for $17.50. If the numbers on the side are date codes, it was made in 1959. I'm not sure when they quit making long plate D getters, but the ones I've been able to date have all been from 1958-59.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

A couple of lovely ladies, that's fo sho!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like you guys are on here between 4 and 6 PM my time. Sorry I haven't been on as much as I used to. I am only getting on in the later part of the evening. Good to see you guys on here.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Looks like you guys are on here between 4 and 6 PM my time. Sorry I haven't been on as much as I used to. I am only getting on in the later part of the evening. Good to see you guys on here.



There we go...now we're complete.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Woah! The gang's all here! At the same time, no less. Far out!


----------



## solarburn

Yeah its been along time since we've all been here at the same time...


----------



## MartyStrat54

From what I know, vintage 12AT7's are usually hotter than a normal AT7. I have a pair of mid-50's Tung-Sol AT7's and they are hot. Same for 5751's. The 5751's sound like a normal AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How ya feeling Joe? Okay? Getting better?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I don't have any money to go out, don't have any cool new PC games, and it's colder'n hell in the music room. This is about the only thing happening.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> How ya feeling Joe? Okay? Getting better?



Got some bad reflux go'n right now. Shiat! I'm tell'n the rest of my shit to piss off! So here I am hav'n fun anyways hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> From what I know, vintage 12AT7's are usually hotter than a normal AT7. I have a pair of mid-50's Tung-Sol AT7's and they are hot. Same for 5751's. The 5751's sound like a normal AX7.



I haven't even tested that pair I'm sending to Joe. They've just been sitting around for awhile. I bought a bunch of stuff last fall that's still lying around waiting to be processed. I need to eBay most of it. Anybody interested in old Pioneer stereo equipment? I've got a Pioneer SPEC-1 preamp, receiver, graphic EQ and aural exciter I need to unload, plus about 4 or 5 old hi-fi cabinets.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had a bunch of stuff in storage for a long time and when I moved into the house I am living in, I brought the stuff from the storage unit up here to Kansas. I was pissed when I realized my Harmon Kardon receiver does not work. I guess the -10 weather cracked the power section somewhere. My little RCA stereo works like a champ. I have a Marantz 2275 that needs some power transistors replaced.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Got some bad reflux go'n right now. Shiat! I'm tell'n the rest of my shit to piss off! So here I am hav'n fun anyways hehe.



I went through that for a couple of years. Sometimes it was nasty. It got better on its own and now I don't have any problems with it. Hopefully, this is what will happen with you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't even tested that pair I'm sending to Joe. They've just been sitting around for awhile. I bought a bunch of stuff last fall that's still lying around waiting to be processed. I need to eBay most of it. Anybody interested in old Pioneer stereo equipment? I've got a Pioneer SPEC-1 preamp, receiver, graphic EQ and aural exciter I need to unload, plus about 4 or 5 old hi-fi cabinets.



Sounds like you have a whole bunch of stuff. How many rooms are you using for "storage?"


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't even tested that pair I'm sending to Joe. They've just been sitting around for awhile. I bought a bunch of stuff last fall that's still lying around waiting to be processed. I need to eBay most of it. Anybody interested in old Pioneer stereo equipment? I've got a Pioneer SPEC-1 preamp, receiver, graphic EQ and aural exciter I need to unload, plus about 4 or 5 old hi-fi cabinets.



PM me about that SPEC-1 and EQ when you get the chance. Old Pioneer stuff is great gear.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> From what I know, vintage 12AT7's are usually hotter than a normal AT7. I have a pair of mid-50's Tung-Sol AT7's and they are hot. Same for 5751's. The 5751's sound like a normal AX7.



Are these interchangeable w/ 12AX7's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Woah! The gang's all here! At the same time, no less. Far out!



Yeah, there have been some others and I thank them for being regulars. However, there is a difference between a regular and an original.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, there have been some others and I thank them for being regulars. However, there is a difference between a regular and an original.



Original is good... 

... And speaking of original... It's great to actually be somewhat sync'd up w/ you for a change!


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Are these interchangeable w/ 12AX7's?



Sure. You can use a 12AU7, 12AT7 and 5751 in place of a 12AX7. The 12AU7 will be a neutered sound. Once you get up to a 12AT7, the gain comes up and it starts getting harder to tell the difference. 

As I said, the hotter AT7's and 5751's will sound very close to a 12AX7. A 5751 that is hot at 80mu compared to a 12AX7 with 90mu will sound very close and the only difference will be the tonality of the two tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sure. You can use a 12AU7, 12AT7 and 5751 in place of a 12AX7. The 12AU7 will be a neutered sound. Once you get up to a 12AT7, the gain comes up and it starts getting harder to tell the difference.
> 
> As I said, the hotter AT7's and 5751's will sound very close to a 12AX7. A 5751 that is hot at 80mu compared to a 12AX7 with 90mu will sound very close and the only difference will be the tonality of the two tubes.



I've tried the 12AU7... It emasculated the amp faster than you can slap a tick, but I've not tried any of the other ones yet...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... So it becomes less of a "gain thing", and more of a "tone thing", when ya start swapping into them, eh?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Threw some clips up comparing the two Shita's...

http://www.marshallforum.com/290488-post21.html


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, did any of you guys see the thread that Paramedic started about Jon Wilder? Jon stiffed him for some cash and BS'd him about what was going on. Bill finally got sick of it and started a thread today. Jon immediately contacted him and said he had the money. Bill got a hold of Adwex and had him delete the thread. Too funny.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... Missed that one...


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> ... So it becomes less of a "gain thing", and more of a "tone thing", when ya start swapping into them, eh?



Let me make myself clear. If you have a hot 5751 and a below average 12AX7, the gain will be very close. "Then" what sets them apart is their tonality, since the gain will be about the same. Remember, gain is measured the same for tubes as it is any power device. The difference between 80mu and 90mu is going to be slight.

Remember, a "new" 12AX7 is considered in a perfect scenario to be 100/100mu. Many 12AX7's came off the line at 92mu. Some were higher than 100mu. Making tubes is not a perfect science. Close, but not perfect. So the bottom line is if you get any 12AX7 that is used, it can be easily down to 80mu. Therefore, if you get a hot NOS 5751 that tests at 80mu, you basically have the same tube except for their tone differences.

I hope this clears up this matter.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I saw it.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Threw some clips up comparing the two Shita's...
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/290488-post21.html



The Dgetter is a lil' more hairy if ya know what I mean. Gets better with volume too.


----------



## MM54

Can you please explain why the pair of 12AU7's I got from Tube Depot are marked as having a gain of 70 please? It doesn't make any sense  It should be 19.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me make myself clear. If you have a hot 5751 and a below average 12AX7, the gain will be very close. "Then" what sets them apart is their tonality, since the gain will be about the same. Remember, gain is measured the same for tubes as it is any power device. The difference between 80mu and 90mu is going to be slight.
> 
> Remember, a "new" 12AX7 is considered in a perfect scenario to be 100/100mu. Many 12AX7's came off the line at 92mu. Some were higher than 100mu. Making tubes is not a perfect science. Close, but not perfect. So the bottom line is if you get any 12AX7 that is used, it can be easily down to 80mu. Therefore, if you get a hot NOS 5751 that tests at 80mu, you basically have the same tube except for their tone differences.
> 
> I hope this clears up this matter.



Perfectly. Thanks Mate!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sounds like you have a whole bunch of stuff. How many rooms are you using for "storage?"



It's spilled over into the garage 

Here is one of the more unique items I still need to explore. It's a Resistance Capacitance Comparator Bridge. It will give you a resistance or capacitance reading on the selected component. If you don't know what you have, you put a known value on the left set of terminals and the one in question on the right. Then you watch the magic eye tube on the top left corner. When the eye is "open" (the darker V at the top of the tube), that's the value. Then you read the multiplication factor and apply that to the known value. Pretty ingenious. The comparator works with chokes, speakers, resistors, capacitors, inductors, but it'll only test caps and resistors, complete with an electrolytic and voltage test. Here it is reading the value of an old Sprague Atom 10mfd cap. I don't know if you can see it or not, but the big dial in the middle is sitting right on 10mfd.






I don't know how I'll replace that eye tube if it goes.


----------



## MM54

What's the number of that magic eye tube, Alan? 

I have an RCA 1629, can't test it though.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't remember. I'll have to take it apart to see.


----------



## MM54

If it happens to be a 1629 (or equivalent?) I have one you can replace it with, or have a spare or whatever


----------



## RiverRatt

It is indeed a 1629. How much?


----------



## MM54

PM'ed


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are common on EBAY. I think I have a couple of the short, stubby ones.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Matt. It runs off a 6X5 rectifier, too. I think I have a few of those. Rectifiers have a way of piling up on you.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those are common on EBAY. I think I have a couple of the short, stubby ones.



I don't know if that would fit the mounting bracket. It's roughly EL34 sized.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks Matt. It runs off a 6X5 rectifier, too. I think I have a few of those. Rectifiers have a way of piling up on you.



They sure do... I have way too many mercury vapor half-wave rectifiers laying around, amongst piles of 5U4's 

I won't even get started on the 4- and 5-pin ones


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's hard to throw a tube away. If they are cracked or have the dreaded milk residue, I toss them. I do save weak tubes, but I don't know why.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's hard to throw a tube away. If they are cracked or have the dreaded milk residue, I toss them. I do save weak tubes, but I don't know why.



Makes sense. Weak tube doesn't mean useless tube. Depending on what your doing, what sound your after, that _weak_ tube could be just what your looking for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it means when the era of NOS tubes is over with, there will still be all of these weak tubes that still will work. Maybe not as good as a new one, but it will work.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it means when the era of NOS tubes is over with, there will still be all of these weak tubes that still will work. Maybe not as good as a new one, but it will work.



I reckon' at that point I can find some weak tubes that I like tone-wise, tear a page out of the book of Joe, and boost it w/ a pedal for more gain.


----------



## MM54

Speaking of weak tubes Marty, I'm in need of a pair of real 12AU7's, not these weirdo EH ones that have a gain factor of 70. Nothing special, a utility tube to run as the first gain stage/cathode follower in a hi-fi amp. Have anything?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got 2 or 3 that I'll trade you for that eye tube


----------



## MM54

What brand?


----------



## RiverRatt

I know I've got at least one RCA and one GE. I'll have to dig around to see what else.


----------



## RiverRatt

2 GE's and one RCA. I had some clear top RCAs but I can't find them anywhere.


----------



## solarburn

Hey guys! Just wanted to stop by and check in. I need to grab a power nap before work now.

Josh boostn can be rewarding as long as its a lil bit and not overdone. I get some good midgain tones do'n it.

Thanx for the clips of the Tweaker Alan. I like it! Specially the ACDC! Keep em' coming.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love naps.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here you go, Matt. 2 GE's, A regular RCA and a clear top RCA. PM me if you're interested in any of them and we'll work out a trade.


----------



## MartyStrat54

See, there really is a need for 12AU7's.


----------



## bulldozer1984

Hey guys,

I see NOS tubes everywhere i look so i looked em up. New Old Stock.. So they are just aged tubes ?? Is that right ??
SO whats so good about em ??


----------



## MartyStrat54

bulldozer1984 said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I see NOS tubes everywhere i look so i looked em up. New Old Stock.. So they are just aged tubes ?? Is that right ??
> SO whats so good about em ??



NOS tubes were actually made up until 2002 or so. Ei was the last of the old school tube makers to call it quits. Marshall used Ei's in a lot of their amps up until 2002 or so. However, most NOS tubes are those made until 1980 or so. The "golden era" was in the early to mid 50's. The 12AX7 was designed in 1947. By ten years later, this tube was made in the thousands by manufacturers all around the world.

When tubes were made back then, the quality was unsurpassed. Tubes were built to sound good and to last. The "quality" of the materials used are so much better than what is used today. Why? Because the stuff used in the good old days would not pass the EPA regulations of today. So the good chemicals and coatings were phased out. So no matter what the current manufacturers do, they won't be able to use these exact chemicals.

The second thing that was done was the quality of the vacuum pulled on the tube. Modern tubes do not have the same quality of a vacuum. It's more of a quantity not quality issue. If a modern tube fails, it it replaced. In the old days a tube failure was looked down upon. NOS tubes like a 12AX7 can be 50 years old and still have 3,000 hours of life left on them. Telefunkens are noted as having 10,000 hours of life. Think about that.

So to sum it up, NOS tubes had better chemicals/coatings and a better vacuum.

One other comment. NOS tubes have a better signal to noise ratio. In other words, they are quieter than a current production tube. This is why an NOS in V1 is such a treat. Not only does it sound better, it's quieter as far as the signal to noise ratio. When people swap over to NOS tubes, this is one of the main things they notice right away. Something to think about.

You can get into NOS or used old stock for very little money. Tubes such as GE, RCA, Sylvania and Raytheon can be had for as little as $20 per tube. As long as the seller gives test scores that allow you to tell how much life is left in it, you have nothing to loose. 

A step up is the Philips made tubes. Philips was the biggest tube maker in the world and had locations all over the world. Amperex, BEL, MiniWatt, Mullard and Telefunken were just a few of the brands owned by Philips. These tubes are even better than the USA brands. So if you have a special amp, you will want Philips tubes in the gain stages. You can use USA tubes for the other slots, such as the PI. 

I hope this helps you understand the differences between NOS and CP.


----------



## bulldozer1984

MartyStrat54 said:


> NOS tubes were actually made up until 2002 or so. Ei was the last of the old school tube makers to call it quits. Marshall used Ei's in a lot of their amps up until 2002 or so. However, most NOS tubes are those made until 1980 or so. The "golden era" was in the early to mid 50's. The 12AX7 was designed in 1947. By ten years later, this tube was made in the thousands by manufacturers all around the world.
> 
> When tubes were made back then, the quality was unsurpassed. Tubes were built to sound good and to last. The "quality" of the materials used are so much better than what is used today. Why? Because the stuff used in the good old days would not pass the EPA regulations of today. So the good chemicals and coatings were phased out. So no matter what the current manufacturers do, they won't be able to use these exact chemicals.
> 
> The second thing that was done was the quality of the vacuum pulled on the tube. Modern tubes do not have the same quality of a vacuum. It's more of a quantity not quality issue. If a modern tube fails, it it replaced. In the old days a tube failure was looked down upon. NOS tubes like a 12AX7 can be 50 years old and still have 3,000 hours of life left on them. Telefunkens are noted as having 10,000 hours of life. Think about that.
> 
> So to sum it up, NOS tubes had better chemicals/coatings and a better vacuum.
> 
> One other comment. NOS tubes have a better signal to noise ratio. In other words, they are quieter than a current production tube. This is why an NOS in V1 is such a treat. Not only does it sound better, it's quieter as far as the signal to noise ratio. When people swap over to NOS tubes, this is one of the main things they notice right away. Something to think about.
> 
> You can get into NOS or used old stock for very little money. Tubes such as GE, RCA, Sylvania and Raytheon can be had for as little as $20 per tube. As long as the seller gives test scores that allow you to tell how much life is left in it, you have nothing to loose.
> 
> A step up is the Philips made tubes. Philips was the biggest tube maker in the world and had locations all over the world. Amperex, BEL, MiniWatt, Mullard and Telefunken were just a few of the brands owned by Philips. These tubes are even better than the USA brands. So if you have a special amp, you will want Philips tubes in the gain stages. You can use USA tubes for the other slots, such as the PI.
> 
> I hope this helps you understand the differences between NOS and CP.



Thanks for the detailed info Marty !! So if i ever want to get some NOS (im in Sydney) where would i go ??


----------



## racersteen68

Help! Re valving my 2553, do i really need a balanced tube for no.3 ecc83?phase inverter?
Never heard a difference before!


----------



## eljeffebrown

Hey Marty, My other guitar player has a Mesa S.O.B. head W three 12ax7 pre's. he is just useing it as a power amp and wants to get the cleanest tone (no distortion) he can out of it, what would you suggest for a fairly low price.


----------



## RiverRatt

racersteen68 said:


> Help! Re valving my 2553, do i really need a balanced tube for no.3 ecc83?phase inverter?
> Never heard a difference before!



No, you don't need a balanced tube for the PI.


----------



## racersteen68

RiverRatt said:


> No, you don't need a balanced tube for the PI.



ok thanks, why do they sell them in a set of 3, 1 'balanced' for PI then??
snake oil?
i could not hear it before i worried about it!


----------



## RiverRatt

It's just marketing hype. The hi-fi community is into balanced PI tubes, so they think that demands a premium. According to a lot of folks here, an unbalanced PI actually sounds better in a guitar amp.


----------



## johnfv

I've played around with "balanced" tubes in the PI position on several amps and did not notice any significant benefit from the balancing. The PI is an important position so you can make a big difference by trying a variety of tubes there but I agree that the balancing is overrated (for guitar amps at least).


----------



## racersteen68

interesting, an amp tech i know who has built for Hank Marvin (yes, really)swapped tubes until it 'sounded right', i must be very deaf!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Matt, guess what I found awhile ago?? Another 12AU7 clear top. I could have sent you a matched pair! That's usually the way things work for me. I gotta get organized one of these days.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I gotta get organized one of these days.



Organization is overrated.


----------



## MM54

Alan, I know what you mean  My amp tubes are very organized (all boxed, labeled, on a shelf) but all my other tubes are in trays in a cupboard in my shop with a paper listing off what's in that tray on the side. There's no organization to it at all 

I'll be getting that 1629 out in the mail right after school tomorrow


----------



## solarburn

Hey Matt...Tubemonger sent me a specials email and guess what's on the menu? 12AU7's

Fine European and American NOS Audio and Guitar Tubes.

Spensive ones...


----------



## MM54

Wow :eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I like that. "Imperfect Scores" = $15 discount. I'll sell bad tubes all day for $45 a hit.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## MartyStrat54

bulldozer1984 said:


> Thanks for the detailed info Marty !! So if i ever want to get some NOS (im in Sydney) where would i go ??



There are several Aussie tube dealers on EBAY. I can't think of their names right now, but you can try EBAY.AU.

It is expensive to ship from the US. I have sold tubes to guys over in Australia, but the shipping was very high. It would be better to try and do business with an Aussie dealer.

If I run across one of their names, I'll PM you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

eljeffebrown said:


> Hey Marty, My other guitar player has a Mesa S.O.B. head W three 12ax7 pre's. he is just useing it as a power amp and wants to get the cleanest tone (no distortion) he can out of it, what would you suggest for a fairly low price.



Well if it was me, I would use a couple of RCA 7025's in V1 and V2. If you don't want to go that route, then try using a couple of TAD 7025's in the amp. You can use about anything in the V3 slot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

racersteen68 said:


> ok thanks, why do they sell them in a set of 3, 1 'balanced' for PI then??
> snake oil?
> i could not hear it before i worried about it!



Pure nonsense. No need for it. I actually go the opposite and use a lopsided tube in the PI slot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Organization is overrated.



I used to be organized, but now my shit is all over the place.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I used to be organized, but now my shit is all over the place.



Dont they make toilet paper for that?


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if it was me, I would use a couple of RCA 7025's in V1 and V2. If you don't want to go that route, then try using a couple of TAD 7025's in the amp. You can use about anything in the V3 slot.



Thanx man, I'll pass the info along.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Matt...Tubemonger sent me a specials email and guess what's on the menu? 12AU7's
> 
> Spensive ones...



Tubemonger ain't cheap. RCA's for $65???


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Wow :eek2:



SHAZAM!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


>


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Dont they make toilet paper for that?



Too rough? Too soft? Ah, just right.


----------



## thrawn86

John Wayne TP?


----------



## BluesRocker

Lol, Marty, what power tubes would you recommend putting in the 1959SLP? Winged C's? or are there any others I dont know of.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## solarburn

4k!

Belch!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Way to go, Joe. The big 4K!


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Lol, Marty, what power tubes would you recommend putting in the 1959SLP? Winged C's? or are there any others I dont know of.



The Winged =C= is the standard. I know those who like the JJ E34L in the 1959.


----------



## BluesRocker

What about the Mullard RI ones. Are they any good? What about KT77s? Or the EH6CA7s? I'm not too knowledgeable on EL34 style tubes.


----------



## MM54

I really like the EH 6CA7's. All around a good sounding tube, crisp high end with a tight thick low end, filled with EL34 mids. In general, a very tight tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

I'm gonna be pushing these pretty hard. Gettin lots of PT distortion. Which would be better for like a Zep and old school rock tone?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I haven't heard much on the JJ 6CA7, but the EH 6CA7 is pretty much a good match for a more vintage tone. I run the EH 6CA7's in my TSL100 and my JMP 2203. The JMP is pretty much my favorite amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

I may have to try out both. I have heard great things about both. So. Only my ears will tell.


----------



## solarburn

Tubemonger also got a whole new shit load of RFT 12AX7's in. I will say they have the best price on them for an online NOS store. $40. I have enough already plus I've got a taste for other flavors now. Still a great V1 rock tube in a Marshall. In my El84 amps it makes a good PI. Warms em' up...


----------



## RiverRatt

I hate to say this, but I'm not even looking for new 12AX7s right now. I've got a pretty good selection now that suits my tastes fine. I wouldn't turn down any deals, but I don't feel the sense of urgency that I did back when we started this. I wouldn't mind having a few of the more esoteric Philips varieties, but not unless they come at a bargain. 

I'm just sittin' here tonight watching the snow fall and sipping some bourbon. If the kids would go to bed (no school tomorrow) it'd be pretty peaceful around here for a change.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Tubemonger also got a whole new shit load of RFT 12AX7's in. I will say they have the best price on them for an online NOS store. $40. I have enough already plus I've got a taste for other flavors now. Still a great V1 rock tube in a Marshall. In my El84 amps it makes a good PI. Warms em' up...



I have an RFT that I am gonna try out in the SLP when I get it. Marty and I have talked and are working on getting a set for it.. Starting out with maybe a Mullard in V1.. 


Geez.. those Winged C's are 80 bucks a pair? Damn.. Thats as much as the KT66s I get for the Soldano and VM.. Looks like Ill be taking the 6AC7's route for now.


----------



## MM54

Most curious thing, a got a box in the mail today with some 12AU7's in it 

Thanks again Alan, and that side-getter matches PERFECTLY with the one I had in my stash, I wasn't planning on using them in this amp but they're too perfect to not use as a pair. They test IDENTICAL, and even have the same smudges in the etching where it says "12AU7A"... I'd venture they're from the same production run, they're tube-soul mates


----------



## RiverRatt

Glad it worked out for you. I sent one of that batch to Marty ages ago and he said it tested weak, but I thought that one was a good, strong tube.


----------



## solarburn

Got your tubes Alan. I'll roll them this weekend. Keep you posted...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-Thanks for the rundown on the RFT's. Good to hear that someone is still rolling tubes.
Looking forward to your comments.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I have an RFT that I am gonna try out in the SLP when I get it. Marty and I have talked and are working on getting a set for it.. Starting out with maybe a Mullard in V1..



Yeah I'm still on that, but you never said whether or not you are going to provide your own V2 and V3 as you have a lot of spare tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I hate to say this, but I'm not even looking for new 12AX7s right now. I've got a pretty good selection now that suits my tastes fine.



Well Alan, when you get about 30, 12AX7's, you do loose the urge to get more.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I'm still on that, but you never said whether or not you are going to provide your own V2 and V3 as you have a lot of spare tubes.



I will prolly have you select the V2 and 3. All of my NOS tubes are being used.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Alan, when you get about 30, 12AX7's, you do loose the urge to get more.



Yeah, I noticed that! I would start collecting EL34s and 5881s, but that gets expensive. I do have a nice bunch of old 6L6s, but I've only got one pair each of the others. I've got enough 6V6s to last me indefinitely. They must have made those by the truckload back in the day.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tubemonger busted me for using one of their pictures on my website. Ha-ha. So I took it off. They must have been doing a search of all competition and then looking at each individual website to find little old me.

BUSTED!


----------



## RiverRatt

SHAME! You're lucky you didn't have black helicopters circling your home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, it was the shot of the three Mullards. I had it on my forum home page as well. I took it down as they may try looking even harder at me being that I am a low life thief.


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, get rid of them janky Mullards. I associate you with Raytheon black plates anyway, since you are the dude who turned the whole forum on to them.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Most curious thing, a got a box in the mail today with some 12AU7's in it
> 
> Thanks again Alan, and that side-getter matches PERFECTLY with the one I had in my stash, I wasn't planning on using them in this amp but they're too perfect to not use as a pair. They test IDENTICAL, and even have the same smudges in the etching where it says "12AU7A"... I'd venture they're from the same production run, they're tube-soul mates



I got your eye tube today, but I haven't had a chance to put it in the meter and check it out. I'll let you know how it goes.

My uncle gave me that batch of side getter RCA's. It was a tray of 5 tubes. He has a big box of mostly useless TV stuff, but I got a handful of 6V6s and those 12AU7s out of it. If you don't mind, let me know what the test scores were on your meter. I'm still trying to get mine calibrated and the comparison numbers might help.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tubemonger busted me for using one of their pictures on my website. Ha-ha. So I took it off. They must have been doing a search of all competition and then looking at each individual website to find little old me.
> 
> BUSTED!



Doh!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Man, get rid of them janky Mullards. I associate you with Raytheon black plates anyway, since you are the dude who turned the whole forum on to them.



+1


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gotta love them Raytheon BP's. Add a Telefunken and you have magic don't you Alan?


----------



## BluesRocker

I would have to agree with ya there Marty. Tele + Ray BP = heaven


----------



## solarburn

I consider it sexual or they were in the DSL...

V1 penetrated V2.


----------



## BluesRocker

Very good observation Joe. Then V1 and V2 double penetrated your gain channel.


----------



## RiverRatt

Things are dull in here. Joe, you had a chance with those 12AT7s yet? Anybody picked up any interesting tubes lately? Anybody?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Things are dull in here. Joe, you had a chance with those 12AT7s yet? Anybody picked up any interesting tubes lately? Anybody?



Yeah. I just put the Telefunken in a while ago. Let it warm up and fired up the amp. Played about 30 seconds and the firecracker went up!!!!!!! NO not your tube. My Rectumfriar blew. Pretty flameout...not! Guess WTF brand 5AR4 it was? JJ! Guess how many hours are on it? Not even 1hr.

Amp won't power up now. Fuse looks good. Replaced all the tubes just to be sure and no go. I got a line in to Dr. Z to get it worked out.

I F'n !!!!!!!!!!

Tore that bitch up finally.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What a drag. I thought you knew better than to run a JJ rectifier. It probably blew a few caps.


----------



## RiverRatt

You seem to have really bad luck with JJ's. I've only ever owned two, and I left them in an amp when I sold it. Hopefully it won't be anything bad. I finally messed around and fixed my Ampeg. It had one resistor that looked good but read somewhere around 19 mOhms. It should have been 470R.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Things are dull in here. Joe, you had a chance with those 12AT7s yet? Anybody picked up any interesting tubes lately? Anybody?



Yeah I miss the GOD (Good Old Days). Plenty of questions to answer and a real sweet vibe. Now we don't even get that many questions in a week.

I tried some BEL's and S and H's in the JMP and really like the sound. The BEL's were very Mullard like and are constructed like a Mullard. The S and H's are a very sweet midrange tube. The bottom end is adequate, but the mids really sing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad to hear that the Ampeg is back up running. The bad thing with old amps is that just when you finish fixing one problem, another could occur. Hope that isn't the case with the Ampeg.


----------



## cagamp1

So, the consensus is that JJ rectifiers are bad. Good to know.

That is old Tesla eqp I thought. Would that apply to all the JJ tube quality?

I read about you guys praising those Raytheon BP's. I have one sittin somewhere. I'll have to get around to testing and listening to it.


----------



## solarburn

The stinker here is I have a BEL GZ34 and a Mullard GZ34 both NOS and solid as hell. I can't believe I put that firecracker JJ in it. 

Can I get a big "DUMBASS" from the congregation...Amen!


----------



## solarburn

Should we take bets on how much this will cost me...?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Glad to hear that the Ampeg is back up running. The bad thing with old amps is that just when you finish fixing one problem, another could occur. Hope that isn't the case with the Ampeg.



I thought that amp was pristine when I bought it, and cosmetically it was, cover and all. When I got into it back when it first messed up, I couldn't believe the condition the boards were in. The tremolo/vibrato/reverb board had actually cracked and the traces had been jumpered. On the main board, one of the octal sockets had fried the board around it. More broken traces and jumper wires. Still, it sounds really, really good. Kinda like a Fender Super with an attitude. 

cagamp, that Raytheon is one sweet tube. They sound especially nice in V2 on the DSL with a Tele in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

YES YOU CAN! Amen to that!


----------



## RiverRatt

Where are you guys all coming up with BEL tubes? I've never even seen one in person - just occasionally on eBay.

Marty, I did pick up a S&H somewhere a few months back, but I haven't really put it through the paces. The way you describe those mids, I'm going to have to give it a workout in the DSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Should we take bets on how much this will cost me...?



Shipping, down time, repair costs...oh about $150.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I miss the GOD (Good Old Days). Plenty of questions to answer and a real sweet vibe. Now we don't even get that many questions in a week.
> 
> I tried some BEL's and S and H's in the JMP and really like the sound. The BEL's were very Mullard like and are constructed like a Mullard. The S and H's are a very sweet midrange tube. The bottom end is adequate, but the mids really sing.



What year is your BEL from? I have one BEL that is 80's stock. It sounds best in the Monza as opposed to the DSL and I didn't like it in the NT. Not as open as a Mullard and the gain is raw maybe a bit dark. I like it. I would say i hear an emphasis on lower mids compared to a Mullard on this 80's production.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Shipping, down time, repair costs...oh about $150.



Yep! I'll know later but off the top of my head that sounds about right.


----------



## RiverRatt

The bench time will be $150! New PT, resistors, probably another $200. $50 shipping each way, probably around $450 total.

Just messin' with you, Joe! Marty's probably right - just a handful of resistors. I think I'd raise hell and try to get Dr. Z to cover it. Just to show my support, I'm going to boycott all JJ products from now on.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> So, the consensus is that JJ rectifiers are bad. Good to know.
> 
> That is old Tesla eqp I thought. Would that apply to all the JJ tube quality?
> 
> I read about you guys praising those Raytheon BP's. I have one sittin somewhere. I'll have to get around to testing and listening to it.



I've always heard that JJ has nothing to do with Tesla, period. They want you to think that, but no, there's none of the old Tesla magic there even if they do put some of their tubes in blue bottles (IMO the only cool thing they ever did).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got my BEL (India) tubes from Peru and the S and H's from Germany. I got some nice NOS RFT's as well. How do you guys like them as a V1 tube? I find them to be a little dark and creamy. Not as bad as a JJ. They actually sound good in a Marshall amp with three preamp tubes using a BP in V2. In the TSL, the "darkness" is a little more noticeable since the BP is a little on the dark side itself. 

Any of you guys have a comment on the RFT's? I have been using them as a PI tube in amps like a Super Lead. For Cody's amp I want to go with a Mullard, BP and RFT.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a couple of RFTs. I think I prefer them in V2 in the DSL, but I've used them in V1 on other amps and they are fine, just not really my taste in a Marshall. I want to try the BEL 12AX7 sometime. You got enough of a supply to part with one, at least on a trial basis? I can send you a 'shita D getter to hold as a hostage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What year is your BEL from? I have one BEL that is 80's stock. It sounds best in the Monza as opposed to the DSL and I didn't like it in the NT. Not as open as a Mullard and the gain is raw maybe a bit dark. I like it. I would say i hear an emphasis on lower mids compared to a Mullard on this 80's production.



These I believe are from an early 70's batch. This all test as almost high gain tubes. I have some that test lower and I think the gain factor plays into how the tone is perceived. I think the lower gain tubes tend to sound a little thinner. As I said, the one's I have are close to a Mullard in tone.

FOR YOUR INFO. SINCE I HAD MY TESTER CLEANED AND CALIBRATED, IT NOW READS 5 POINTS HIGHER THAN IT DID. EXAMPLE-A 28-28 IS NOW A 33-33.

Joe. Didn't I sell you that BEL? I thought I did, maybe not.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got my BEL (India) tubes from Peru and the S and H's from Germany. I got some nice NOS RFT's as well. How do you guys like them as a V1 tube? I find them to be a little dark and creamy. Not as bad as a JJ. They actually sound good in a Marshall amp with three preamp tubes using a BP in V2. In the TSL, the "darkness" is a little more noticeable since the BP is a little on the dark side itself.
> 
> Any of you guys have a comment on the RFT's? I have been using them as a PI tube in amps like a Super Lead. For Cody's amp I want to go with a Mullard, BP and RFT.



I liked my RFT's in the PI slot too. Its a good one in the NT cause its a sharp amp on the bright voicing and the RFT warms it up a few hairs. As a V1 I too find them a bit dark but I also noticed that some of that would fade away when the volume got up to a healthy level. I think for me where I found they fell short were on leads. Not chewy enough for me and a bit thin. Just ok. thats more or less why I prefer others over it now. Remember when we first started out the RFT really sounded good. Over time I found some others I just preferred mostly due to the "chew" I luv in them mids when spank'n the plank.

Chewy mids is "SEX".


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> These I believe are from an early 70's batch. This all test as almost high gain tubes. I have some that test lower and I think the gain factor plays into how the tone is perceived. I think the lower gain tubes tend to sound a little thinner. As I said, the one's I have are close to a Mullard in tone.
> 
> FOR YOUR INFO. SINCE I HAD MY TESTER CLEANED AND CALIBRATED, IT NOW READS 5 POINTS HIGHER THAN IT DID. EXAMPLE-A 28-28 IS NOW A 33-33.
> 
> Joe. Didn't I sell you that BEL? I thought I did, maybe not.



No I got that BEL from Tubemonger quite awhile ago. They only had one and I haven't seen them there since. A year ago prolly...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> FOR YOUR INFO. SINCE I HAD MY TESTER CLEANED AND CALIBRATED, IT NOW READS 5 POINTS HIGHER THAN IT DID. EXAMPLE-A 28-28 IS NOW A 33-33.



So that last batch you tested, should I mark them 5 points higher? 

Marty, who repairs your testers? You think they could do anything for my EICO 666?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a couple of RFTs. I think I prefer them in V2 in the DSL, but I've used them in V1 on other amps and they are fine, just not really my taste in a Marshall. I want to try the BEL 12AX7 sometime. You got enough of a supply to part with one, at least on a trial basis? I can send you a 'shita D getter to hold as a hostage.



I think I got rid of all my 'shita D getters. They just don't have the selling power of say a Telefunken. I might have six or so left. As I told you, I sold a batch of them to a guy in Kansas City and then Josh and you bought a few off of me. I will see what my inventory versus pending sales looks like and maybe I can get a BEL out to you.

Just a note to say that I am trapped in my house. I have stock piled food and hope the gas and electricity stay on. We got hit by a massive blizzard. I probably won't be coming out of my house for a couple of days. The weather is supposed to clear tonight, but the temperatures are going to drop in the negative digits. I'm not digging this at all.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought all yours were the round slant getters. I didn't know you had some D's.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think I got rid of all my 'shita D getters. They just don't have the selling power of say a Telefunken. I might have six or so left. As I told you, I sold a batch of them to a guy in Kansas City and then Josh and you bought a few off of me. I will see what my inventory versus pending sales looks like and maybe I can get a BEL out to you.
> 
> Just a note to say that I am trapped in my house. I have stock piled food and hope the gas and electricity stay on. We got hit by a massive blizzard. I probably won't be coming out of my house for a couple of days. The weather is supposed to clear tonight, but the temperatures are going to drop in the negative digits. I'm not digging this at all.



Oh shizz man! We were just talking about all you guys get'n the snow. You hang in there and ration wisely hehe. Really though take care and keep us posted. Hope that power stays on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> So that last batch you tested, should I mark them 5 points higher?
> 
> Marty, who repairs your testers? You think they could do anything for my EICO 666?



Yes. I tested your tubes prior to the calibration.

I sent an email to the tech and if he works on them I will give you his info. Just so you know, he is in Washington (West Coast).


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just a note to say that I am trapped in my house. I have stock piled food and hope the gas and electricity stay on. We got hit by a massive blizzard. I probably won't be coming out of my house for a couple of days. The weather is supposed to clear tonight, but the temperatures are going to drop in the negative digits. I'm not digging this at all.



Did you get beer and whiskey? Everybody around here runs for bread, milk and eggs when there's a snow in the forecast. I go to the liquor store.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I thought all yours were the round slant getters. I didn't know you had some D's.



Sometimes I never know what I have until I quit looking for them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did you get beer and whiskey? Everybody around here runs for bread, milk and eggs when there's a snow in the forecast. I go to the liquor store.



Plenty of good beer and just cracked the cap on a big bottle of Crown Royal.


----------



## RiverRatt

I need a big bottle of Jameson's. We've been getting snow around here a lot this year, too.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I've always heard that JJ has nothing to do with Tesla, period. They want you to think that, but no, there's none of the old Tesla magic there even if they do put some of their tubes in blue bottles (IMO the only cool thing they ever did).


 

I've read that Tesla Electrontubes sold it's factory to JJ-Electronics mid 90's. I have Tesla produced EL34's and they look almost identical to current production JJ EL34's.

I also find the JJ's that I have to be on par with decent quality Tesla originals. I'm talking the EL34's.....Not the Tesla E34L's.

I'm guessing that the JJ EL34 & E34L are pretty much the same tube.

The newer JJ 6CA7 looks interesting.

Enough about those tubes...this is a preamp tube thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's more to making a tube then the same construction. The quality of the parts and the coatings used make a huge difference. The USA has strict regulations in regard to tube chemicals. That's why almost all of the tubes are made overseas. However, the chemicals and materials are inferior to say a 1955 USA/Philips tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'm waiting to hear the verdict on the JJ 6CA7's. I'm not going to buy any personally.


----------



## BluesRocker

Getting ready to order a set of EH6Ca7s.. Should I get EL34s or stick with the original idea and 6CA7s?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think I got rid of all my 'shita D getters. They just don't have the selling power of say a Telefunken. I might have six or so left. As I told you, I sold a batch of them to a guy in Kansas City and then Josh and you bought a few off of me. I will see what my inventory versus pending sales looks like and maybe I can get a BEL out to you.
> 
> Just a note to say that I am trapped in my house. I have stock piled food and hope the gas and electricity stay on. We got hit by a massive blizzard. I probably won't be coming out of my house for a couple of days. The weather is supposed to clear tonight, but the temperatures are going to drop in the negative digits. I'm not digging this at all.



... Actually, you sold me a couple of slant getter Matsushitas, not D-getters. But... I'd like to get a D-getter or two if you have any (I'm soooo digging Alan's, but I know I have to give it back, so...), and another tele as well. Actually, ya'll have been talking about RFT's so much lately I'd love a chance to try one of those as well. Please PM me if you've got anything at all that might fit the bill for me tube-wise... You know the flavors I like.

That winter weather really sucks, doesn't it! we've been getting snow and sub-zero wind chill factors here almost every day lately as well. It sucks, but thank God I still haver my snow-blower. I'm outta my house week after next, and have plans to move down to my friends land in Tennessee (about an hour from Nashville), but since they've had the kind of winter they've had, I figure I may as well stay with my brother's family in Wisconsin until spring and then head down (since I'm planning on living in my camper down there).

Tube-wise I really haven't done much rolling here other than Alan's D-getter, and I. Can say whole heartedly that it is one tube I'm gonna hate to have to give back.  I wish I had more to say tube-wise, but it's been slow here in that regard for me as well.
Hey Joe... Bummer on the Dr. Z bro. Keep us posted mate.

Hang in there with that winter weather Marty!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

P.S. Sorry about all the spelling and punctuation errors in my recent posts... I can honestly blame them on the amazing joys of doing all my posting from my phone... It's just not the same as posting from a pc!


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Actually, you sold me a couple of slant getter Matsushitas, not D-getters. But... I'd like to get a D-getter or two if you have any (I'm soooo digging Alan's, but I know I have to give it back, so...), and another tele as well. Actually, ya'll have been talking about RFT's so much lately I'd love a chance to try one of those as well. Please PM me if you've got anything at all that might fit the bill for me tube-wise... You know the flavors I like.
> 
> That winter weather really sucks, doesn't it! we've been getting snow and sub-zero wind chill factors here almost every day lately as well. It sucks, but thank God I still haver my snow-blower. I'm outta my house week after next, and have plans to move down to my friends land in Tennessee (about an hour from Nashville), but since they've had the kind of winter they've had, I figure I may as well stay with my brother's family in Wisconsin until spring and then head down (since I'm planning on living in my camper down there).
> 
> Tube-wise I really haven't done much rolling here other than Alan's D-getter, and I. Can say whole heartedly that it is one tube I'm gonna hate to have to give back.  I wish I had more to say tube-wise, but it's been slow here in that regard for me as well.
> Hey Joe... Bummer on the Dr. Z bro. Keep us posted mate.
> 
> Hang in there with that winter weather Marty!



I've been saying that those D getters are a different animal entirely. Kinda like the difference between a smooth plate Tele and a ribbed - yeah, they both sound good, but... If I had to pick my top 3, it would be the Matushita D, Tele smooth plate, and the ubiquitous Raytheon black plate. There are a few of the more esoteric ones I'd like to try, like a silver plate Mazda, but they are just too expensive to take a gamble on.

What part of Tennessee, Josh? One hour from Nashville covers a lot of ground.


----------



## solarburn

Well guys it cost me a whopping $2.99 from RS to fix the Monza. Popped in another slow blow fuse and she fired right up. So Alan when I get some time over the next 2 days I will try those AT7's again hehe. And the other...think I'll put it in the NT and see what happens.


----------



## RiverRatt

Way to go, Joe! Ain't it wonderful when stuff works itself out like that? I had just about given my Ampeg up for dead and then found that burned out 470/2w resistor. I found a 2w wire wound in my parts bin so other than a few more gray hairs it cost me nothing to fix. Now I know that my old Stancor OT works, too. I think it's a great excuse to build a JTM45 around it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan. My tube tester tech does not repair EICO. He did not know who to send it to. Sorry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Josh-I knew they were slant tops. I didn't word that too clearly. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's cool. Thanks for checking. There is a selector on the tester labeled "V" and it has setting numbered 1-5. If I bump that selector up a notch from the recommended setting, it tests within the normal range. Otherwise, I get like 40-50% readings. It needs some attention.

If you don't mind, ask him about PACO testers. I still have one that's dead, and it's supposed to be as good as a Hickok if I can get it working. It's a Precision Apparatus Co. 10-54.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Way to go, Joe! Ain't it wonderful when stuff works itself out like that? I had just about given my Ampeg up for dead and then found that burned out 470/2w resistor. I found a 2w wire wound in my parts bin so other than a few more gray hairs it cost me nothing to fix. Now I know that my old Stancor OT works, too. I think it's a great excuse to build a JTM45 around it!



It sounds great too! Still working haha! Had to play it for awhile. It really does trump that Pathfinder 15R. Feel and dynamics of them tubes at volume especially. The Pathfinder is a great ss amp for the bedroom though.

Build that JTM45. Great amp!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Matt, finally got around to testing the eye tube. It works fine. I got a nasty little 6.3v surprise while I was working with it. I couldn't get it to work and finally found that I had broken a couple of wires from the octal socket when I was changing the tubes. While I was handling it, I accidentally touched the 6.3v lamp socket. Thankfully it was only 6.3V! It was still enough to get my attention.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> It sounds great too! Still working haha! Had to play it for awhile. It really does trump that Pathfinder 15R. Feel and dynamics of them tubes at volume especially. The Pathfinder is a great ss amp for the bedroom though.
> 
> Build that JTM45. Great amp!



How do the 12AT7s sound? They were untested, but I figured they had to be better than any CP tubes.

BTW, if I build that JTM45, I'm going to need a GZ34 rectifier. I guess I should steer clear of the JJ's, hmm?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> It sounds great too! Still working haha! Had to play it for awhile. It really does trump that Pathfinder 15R. Feel and dynamics of them tubes at volume especially. The Pathfinder is a great ss amp for the bedroom though.
> 
> Build that JTM45. Great amp!



I'm guessing that you are using a real rectifier tube now...correct?

Glad it is up and ballsy and all.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... What part of Tennessee, Josh? One hour from Nashville covers a lot of ground.



Cookeville/Livingston area.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Josh-I knew they were slant tops. I didn't word that too clearly. Sorry for the confusion.



... And suddenly all becomes clear...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm guessing that you are using a real rectifier tube now...correct?
> 
> Glad it is up and ballsy and all.



Thats a big hell yeah!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> How do the 12AT7s sound? They were untested, but I figured they had to be better than any CP tubes.
> 
> BTW, if I build that JTM45, I'm going to need a GZ34 rectifier. I guess I should steer clear of the JJ's, hmm?



I'll do your tubes tomorrow. I got kicked out of the bedroom by a tired ole' lady hehe. So I'll report back tomorrow on those 2.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys!



Hey, how's it goin'?


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Cookeville/Livingston area.



That's on the other side from me. Been thru there before, but it's been awhile.


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> That's on the other side from me. Been thru there before, but it's been awhile.


 
Been through there, Highway 70, on my bike several times. I always check out the Falls @ Ozone.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...If I had to pick my top 3, it would be the Matushita D, Tele smooth plate, and the ubiquitous Raytheon black plate...


OK guys, I want to try the good stuff  Most of my tubes are CP (what NOS tubes I have is likely stuff I bought when I was a kid). If you had to choose 2 NOS preamp tubes to try, what would they be, what is a rough cost and who should I get them from? It sounds like y'all have a pretty active NOS trade scene going on here...

I have a variety of amps but assume I am looking for "classic" 70s Marshall tones. Thanks-

JV


----------



## cagamp1

johnfv said:


> OK guys, I want to try the good stuff  Most of my tubes are CP (what NOS tubes I have is likely stuff I bought when I was a kid). If you had to choose 2 NOS preamp tubes to try, what would they be, what is a rough cost and who should I get them from? It sounds like y'all have a pretty active NOS trade scene going on here...
> 
> I have a variety of amps but assume I am looking for "classic" 70s Marshall tones. Thanks-
> 
> JV


 
Are you the real John or is that a play on names?

I like reading about the tube ventures too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

cagamp1 said:


> Been through there, Highway 70, on my bike several times. I always check out the Falls @ Ozone.





RiverRatt said:


> That's on the other side from me. Been thru there before, but it's been awhile.



Not sure where the Falls @ Ozone are, but from what I've seen of the area, it is my kind of country.

I'm looking forward to the change.


----------



## cagamp1

joshuaaewallen said:


> Not sure where the Falls @ Ozone are, but from what I've seen of the area, it is my kind of country.
> 
> I'm looking forward to the change.


 
Yep, country like. Ozone is a little ways east on I-40 from you, rigth after Crossville. The falls are on Highway 70. Ozone Falls are nice especially if the bottom is full of water. 80-100' drop I think. It's a little hiking and climbing to get to the bottom.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> OK guys, I want to try the good stuff  Most of my tubes are CP (what NOS tubes I have is likely stuff I bought when I was a kid). If you had to choose 2 NOS preamp tubes to try, what would they be, what is a rough cost and who should I get them from? It sounds like y'all have a pretty active NOS trade scene going on here...
> 
> I have a variety of amps but assume I am looking for "classic" 70s Marshall tones. Thanks-
> 
> JV



Which amp will you be putting the tubes in? If it's the '68, I'd try a smooth plate Tele or some Mullard equivalent in V1, a Raytheon black plate in V2 and something kinda hot for the PI. It doesn't matter so much for it, but a high gain tube as a PI seems to really open the amp up. Marty can help you out when he gets on here. He's got a couple of older Marshalls with 3 preamp tubes. Most of my rollin' is done on the DSL.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Matt, finally got around to testing the eye tube. It works fine. I got a nasty little 6.3v surprise while I was working with it. I couldn't get it to work and finally found that I had broken a couple of wires from the octal socket when I was changing the tubes. While I was handling it, I accidentally touched the 6.3v lamp socket. Thankfully it was only 6.3V! It was still enough to get my attention.



Glad it works, and that you're okay! You mentioned before about the test results for that RCA 12AU7 (the side-getter). I've just now remembered, but it was testing 97%/100% on my Jackson 598 (emissions tester, still looking for a good deal on a mutual conductance bit...). Thanks again!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

cagamp1 said:


> Yep, country like. Ozone is a little ways east on I-40 from you, rigth after Crossville. The falls are on Highway 70. Ozone Falls are nice especially if the bottom is full of water. 80-100' drop I think. It's a little hiking and climbing to get to the bottom.



Sounds cool. I'll have to check that out when I get down there. Thanks for the heads up on that!


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> Which amp will you be putting the tubes in?...


I'd like to try in several amps, I like to start with some good V1 choices for now (but am open to suggestions). As much as anything, I just want to hear the difference - see if I can keep up with you guys.  I like a good classic crunch when I push it but responsive enough to clean up when I back off. Since I play mostly Strats I do tend to warmer tones in the amps. But, lately I've been playing the EL-84 amps a lot, something magic about the midrange bark a pushed EL-84 has. Let me know what you guys think...



cagamp1 said:


> Are you the real John...


I was real the last time I checked


----------



## MartyStrat54

Based on what you said, I would go with a Mullard in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. You can use a CP in the PI slot if you want to save money.

You could also just go with the Mullard in V1 and use say a Tung-Sol CP in V2. Again, to save money.

In my JMP, I use a MiniWatt in V1 (High Gain) and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 (High Gain) and a Sylvania Gray Plate in the PI.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Based on what you said, I would go with a Mullard in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. You can use a CP in the PI slot if you want to save money.
> 
> You could also just go with the Mullard in V1 and use say a Tung-Sol CP in V2. Again, to save money.
> 
> In my JMP, I use a MiniWatt in V1 (High Gain) and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2 (High Gain) and a Sylvania Gray Plate in the PI.



Thanks! So what is the going rate for a Mullard and a Raytheon Black Plate? I've been around tube amps for decades but I'm a noob on scoring good NOS  Should I take this to PM? I buy most of my CP stuff from thetubestore.com lately (and the Tung-Sol is one that I like)...


----------



## solarburn

Alan. I'm demoing the tubes right now. Those AT7's are solid. No extraneous noise go'n on and they are strong. The Tele is a bit brighter than the Mullard but it has some neat feedback to it. Nice woody tones on the neck pu. Don't you just love the flash of a Mullard when you pop it in hehe. Both sound good. I'm going to keep mess'n with them. The Tele is a bit less in the mids than your Mullard and my Mullard. So I want to see if I like what its doing. Sounds great with the neck PU!

What I like about these paired with my pedal is their articulation/tone. Their ability to offer a nice dynamic mid gain tone with a bit more mids than just playing straight into the amp which sounds great too...with 12AX7's. Alone the AT7's aren't enough but with a nice transparent OD hell yeah. So many peeps think boosting is about achieving more gain. I'm looking for mid gain dynamics, roll off to cleans with nice round neck tones and in this case a favorable mid frequency eq change. 

Not saturation on top of saturation...


----------



## solarburn

Here is the Mullard AT7 I have:







Description from site:
This is perhaps the finest 12AT7 available today for any price. These come in original military white boxes with the classic Mullard paper wrapping, and pin protector. Sweet in the V1 too! Mfg at the Mitcham, UK factory.

I haven't found another AT7 to best it yet. This includes a Jan, Brimar BP and both of yours. I have 2 of them and both are stellar. Your Mullard is like it but the mid voicing on mine is a bit sweeter. You and I know that 2 CV 4024's can sound different. The 2 I have really are nice At7's. If I was going to keep one I would want your Mullard. Let me mess with them some more and then we'll wheel and deal hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. I wasn't really looking to get anything out of them. I had one of those Mullard AT7s at one time, too. I thought the logo on it looked like the Autobot symbol. I think I sold it ages ago 'cuz I wasn't using it any. I wish I had a handful of those pin protectors they used on those.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Cool. I wasn't really looking to get anything out of them. I had one of those Mullard AT7s at one time, too. I thought the logo on it looked like the Autobot symbol. I think I sold it ages ago 'cuz I wasn't using it any. I wish I had a handful of those pin protectors they used on those.



Do you want any of them back? I'll use em' if you're done with them...I'll look and see if I still have my pin protectors. If I do I'll send them to you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I'll probably want them back eventually, just not anytime soon. Who knows when a Super Reverb might fall from the sky and land in my music corner? If you decide you want either or both, we can work out a very reasonable exchange. They are what they are, and that ain't collector's pieces. Both of those came out of an old Knight CB radio. I also scored a Mullard EL84 out of the deal - wish I had a match for that tube! I'm saving it for when I get another SE 5 watt amp. 

I must be getting old. My GAS is starting to fade a little. I'm pretty happy with the amps I've got now. I'd like an AC15 or AC30 and maybe a Fender combo sometime, but truthfully that little Tweaker has so many of those sounds in it that I don't feel the need for a new amp right now, unless it's vintage and cheap.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...that little Tweaker has so many of those sounds...


OK, next time the Tweaker goes on sale I'm going for it. I gotta say, there are many new amps being built currently based on the knowledge passed down over the ages. You don't have to spend a fortune to have a nice amp...


----------



## RiverRatt

Just watch for a GC sale, and pick your least favorite pedal and trade it in, too. You get 10-15% off your purchase just for trading something in. I did that when I got mine. They had a 10% off sale, plus the 10% trade-in trade-up discount. I ended up getting like $80 off the purchase and I was out my Bad Monkey OD pedal. I only paid $30 for it, so it was a good sacrifice. I haven't used it to speak of since I bought that OCD off Joe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> Thanks! So what is the going rate for a Mullard and a Raytheon Black Plate? I've been around tube amps for decades but I'm a noob on scoring good NOS  Should I take this to PM? I buy most of my CP stuff from thetubestore.com lately (and the Tung-Sol is one that I like)...



I can help you. Send me a PM.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I'll probably want them back eventually, just not anytime soon. Who knows when a Super Reverb might fall from the sky and land in my music corner? If you decide you want either or both, we can work out a very reasonable exchange. They are what they are, and that ain't collector's pieces. Both of those came out of an old Knight CB radio. I also scored a Mullard EL84 out of the deal - wish I had a match for that tube! I'm saving it for when I get another SE 5 watt amp.
> 
> I must be getting old. My GAS is starting to fade a little. I'm pretty happy with the amps I've got now. I'd like an AC15 or AC30 and maybe a Fender combo sometime, but truthfully that little Tweaker has so many of those sounds in it that I don't feel the need for a new amp right now, unless it's vintage and cheap.



Ok. I'll just use them for a bit then and send them back. I do have a few AT7's as is so I don't really need any but you know how sexy a good sounding tube is. Makes ya think you have to add it to the collection...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok. I'll just use them for a bit then and send them back. I do have a few AT7's as is so I don't really need any but you know how sexy a good sounding tube is. Makes ya think you have to add it to the collection...



Careful Joe... Alan likes to loan tubes that a person gets mighty find of, mighty quick, and are mighty difficult to send back... No kidding mate, he's got excellent taste in vintage glass!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks! Cork-sniffery at its finest.


----------



## joshuaaewallen




----------



## cagamp1

I sniff corks. On wine and fancy beer. It lets you how flavorful and/or how dry the beverage.

I also sniff tubes sometimes too. That doesn't indicate quality but rather hot or cold. I love the smell of warm electronics...rare to medium rare...not well done!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'll get a bottle of wine tomorrow. Bourbon ain't cutting it. If it comes with a synthetic cork, is it still worth sniffing?


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I think I'll get a bottle of wine tomorrow. Bourbon ain't cutting it. If it comes with a synthetic cork, is it still worth sniffing?


 
Yes, if it is wet.

Hmmm...vapor high.


----------



## RiverRatt

Even the Mondavi stuff is coming with those fake corks. I wonder if it would improve the taste if I put a NOS cork in the bottle after I open it - I have a few lying around in my parts drawer. I think tomorrow night will be a pinot noir night. A little pasta, a little candlelight, me passed out on the couch...


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Even the Mondavi stuff is coming with those fake corks. I wonder if it would improve the taste if I put a NOS cork in the bottle after I open it - I have a few lying around in my parts drawer. I think tomorrow night will be a pinot noir night. A little pasta, a little candlelight, me passed out on the couch...


 
You may have to use one of those YellowJackets to get it to work.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Tried that... Doesn't work. But they melt nice when you use them in yer amp!


----------



## cagamp1

joshuaaewallen said:


> Tried that... Doesn't work. But they melt nice when you use them in yer amp!


 
Holy crap! They melt...you are talking about a yellowjacket?
Not that I would use one, but I have never read anything bad on them yet.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I loved the way they sounded, but I just did not find them reliable at all...

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/4552-thd-yellow-jackets-serious-potential-fun-2.html


----------



## johnfv

*Can someone ID these for me?*

I am a packrat on gear for sure (anyone need an original 70s Maestro PS1A?  ) so I still have tubes going back to when I was a teen. These I bought probably early 80s, I am curious about their origins. The 12AT7 has a GT label but also says 6201 USA, I really like it in PI positions. The 12AX7 is labeled by ARS in Van Nuys, any ideas on that one? It sounds pretty good to me...


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

*Re: Can someone ID these for me?*



johnfv said:


> I am a packrat on gear for sure (anyone need an original 70s Maestro PS1A?  ) so I still have tubes going back to when I was a teen. These I bought probably early 80s, I am curious about their origins. The 12AT7 has a GT label but also says 6201 USA, I really like it in PI positions. The 12AX7 is labeled by ARS in Van Nuys, any ideas on that one? It sounds pretty good to me...



Looks like chinese current production.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like some early Chinese tubes. Wow...they've been making them for a long time.

As I said, CP tubes overlapped NOS production. The Chinese and Russian manufacturers started making tubes and Ei was still making NOS up until around 2002.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty. I got my SLP today.. I put the RFT in V1, Phillips EH high gain in V2, and the GP HG Sylviana in V3.. Sounds pretty nice.. I have a question about the 6Ca7's too if you wanna go over to the power tube thread i can go there and discuss it with ya


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll head over there. Glad you got the amp, but it's off to see Joey, right?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

That's awesome.


----------



## mike mike

hey guys i am interested in some good preamp tubes for V1-V3. i am a metal player. i am not afraid to go nos as long as i am spending under $100 for all three. i want rich tone, low noise(if possible) etc. i use JJ ecc83s right now and am somewhat satisfied, but i think i could do better


----------



## Segovia

I'm looking at replacing the pre's in my Dsl100. I'd like to darken it up a bit and possibly smooth out the gain a little. It currently still has stock tubes in it. The cabinet is a 1960av. 

Thoughts? I have literally zero experience with different types of preamp tubes.


----------



## marvin

Sorry to come into this thread so late, just found it.
I have been collecting tubes for about 20 yrs. Mostly Mullard 12AX7/ECC83's but I have a few I'm not sure about.
Firstly, the Mullard EL37's. Are they a direct replacement for 6L6's? Any info. on the metal 6L6's? The one on the left is a Tung-Sol USA,2nd Raytheon USA,third and fourth are RCA USA.
The next two pics are of 12AX7/Ecc83's. The one on the left is a 2.1 Hammond, made in Holland. It has numbers 79 09
The one on the right in these same pics is a HEATH by Mullard, 1022-007 (I think)Also some worn off numbers/letters. I can only read part of them, B8K. This tube looks similar to other Mullards that I have but the plates are longer.
The last pic is of a Hungarian tube, badge inside (56)
any help identifying them would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## marvin

Another pic of the Hungarian tube.
The last two pics are of a W-German 12AX7.
TIA!


----------



## MM54

Gotta love the metal tubes.

The only thing that stuck out to me is the last one, the "W-German 12AX7." Does it have a diamond stamped in the glass on the bottom inside the circle of pins? It looks like a nice smoothplate telefunken to my far from expert eye.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

marvin said:


> Another pic of the Hungarian tube.
> The last two pics are of a W-German 12AX7.
> TIA!



One on the left is a tungsram, the other is an Ei smooth plate. 

here is a pic of the Ei i have






And here are the telefunkens i have







Notice the Ei have the holes in the center part the plate (the raised part) insdie the outer holes on the flat part of the palte, but the Tele have them outside them, if that makes sense. The picture you posted has them inside so they are Ei smooth plates. However if there is a diamond on the base between the pins you can ignore all that as it will definitley be a tele. And having said all that i just noticed the little crimps on the one you posted and the envelope really does look tele shaped so im buggered if i know.


----------



## RiverRatt

marvin said:


> Another pic of the Hungarian tube.
> The last two pics are of a W-German 12AX7.
> TIA!



The Hungarian tube is a Tungsram. The W. Germany tube is a smooth plate Telefunken. The two pre's in the other photo are an Amperex and an older Blackburn Mullard (I61 I think - not sure what the last long-plate revision number was). All superb tubes!

The EL37 and the metal 6L6s aren't spec'd to handle as much plate voltage as a 6L6GC. I wouldn't use them in an application that calls for a 6L6GC.


----------



## marvin

Thanks!! The smooth plate does have a diamond stamped in the bottom with an 02 in the middle of the diamond.
2

Best,
Marvin

p.s. that last 2 should be directly under the 02.


----------



## cagamp1

Marvin, some more info on the EL37's and metal 6L6...

The metal 6L6 tubes are older style with plate ratings mostly at 360V and 19W.

The EL37's are great tubes and will go for high price if they are in good condition. The EL37 is the forerunner to the KT66. It has a plate spec of 400V usually and at 25W. However, it has a higher filament current of 1.4A...so be careful where you use it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Segovia said:


> I'm looking at replacing the pre's in my Dsl100. I'd like to darken it up a bit and possibly smooth out the gain a little. It currently still has stock tubes in it. The cabinet is a 1960av.
> 
> Thoughts? I have literally zero experience with different types of preamp tubes.



I would try an RFT in V1. It is darker and more creamy sounding. Then I would run a medium gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2 to help smooth out the gain.

I always recommend Euro or USA tubes for V3 and V4, but you can use current production tubes in these slots to save money, although a couple of nice GE's would be sweet.


----------



## BluesRocker

+1 for RFT's They make a tasty darkening. I love them


----------



## MartyStrat54

According to my old tube swap manuals, an EL37 is a direct swap for a 6L6 and a 5881. As stated already, the EL37 draws a lot of heater current.

Please note that a 6L6 should in no way be confused with a 6L6GC. The early forms of the 6L6 were of lower wattage compared to the big 6L6GC.

I would not recommend using the EL37 or any of the early 6L6's in any modern guitar amp.


----------



## mike mike

hey guys i am interested in some good preamp tubes for V1-V3. i am a metal player. i am not afraid to go nos as long as i am spending under $100 for all three. i want rich tone, low noise(if possible) etc. i use JJ ecc83s right now and am somewhat satisfied, but i think i could do alot better. i would love smoother mids and tighter low end


----------



## mike mike

bump?


----------



## Segovia

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would try an RFT in V1. It is darker and more creamy sounding. Then I would run a medium gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2 to help smooth out the gain.
> 
> I always recommend Euro or USA tubes for V3 and V4, but you can use current production tubes in these slots to save money, although a couple of nice GE's would be sweet.



Where would you recommend picking these up? Just browse eBay? What would be an acceptable price for these?


----------



## marvin

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would try an RFT in V1. It is darker and more creamy sounding. Then I would run a medium gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2 to help smooth out the gain.
> 
> I always recommend Euro or USA tubes for V3 and V4, but you can use current production tubes in these slots to save money, although a couple of nice GE's would be sweet.



Marty,

Please excuse my ignorance here again, but what are RFT's


----------



## MM54

RFT = Recipe For Tone perhaps?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> The Hungarian tube is a Tungsram.



A little advice. Be careful removing or installing a Tungsram. They tend to have brittle, thin bases and it is easy to crack the glass around one of the pins. They are nice tubes, you just have to be extra careful when working with them. Same advice with RFT's as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

mike mike said:


> bump?



The Telefunken V1 and Raytheon black plate V2 is a hard combination to beat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

marvin said:


> Marty,
> 
> Please excuse my ignorance here again, but what are RFT's



Telefunkens were made in West Germany and RFT's were made in East Germany. RFT's are very nice in quality and their EL34's are still available and are probably the best EL34's out there. Their ECC83 (12AX7's) are a darker tube. Not as dark as most JJ's. It has a creamier, smooth tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> RFT = Recipe For Tone perhaps?



That's a good one.

Mine is, "Rocking Forever Tonally."


----------



## mike mike

RiverRatt said:


> The Telefunken V1 and Raytheon black plate V2 is a hard combination to beat.



Sounds expensive


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> hey guys i am interested in some good preamp tubes for V1-V3. i am a metal player. i am not afraid to go nos as long as i am spending under $100 for all three. i want rich tone, low noise(if possible) etc. i use JJ ecc83s right now and am somewhat satisfied, but i think i could do alot better. i would love smoother mids and tighter low end



For that sort of budget, you will need to consider EBAY. You can get a single Amperex or MiniWatt for $40 to $45 (for V1) and a couple of RCA's for $40 or so. Of course, the main thing is you don't know how they really test unless the seller is honest and gives you all of the test data. If the seller shows his test scores and the minimum good value, you can then be assured a solid tube.


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> For that sort of budget, you will need to consider EBAY. You can get a single Amperex or MiniWatt for $40 to $45 (for V1) and a couple of RCA's for $40 or so. Of course, the main thing is you don't know how they really test unless the seller is honest and gives you all of the test data. If the seller shows his test scores and the minimum good value, you can then be assured a solid tube.



i am cool with spending a little more. lets just say V1 and V2 for 100. i tune down (7 string A and drop C on 6). i want creamy full thick and tight tone


----------



## cagamp1

mike mike said:


> i am cool with spending a little more. lets just say V1 and V2 for 100. i tune down (7 string A and drop C on 6). i want creamy full thick and tight tone


 
*Mike*, good tubes are always a plus. But you may need more than just tubes from what I have read. I noticed you mentioning down tune and 7-strings. It seems you are concerned about your low frequecies. I think you mentioned bad low end on your other thread. Have you gotten any feedback yet?


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of the things I always concern myself with in regard to 7 string guitars is the speaker and size of the cab. Baritone and 7 string guitars need speakers that will reproduce the lower frequencies. Generally, the best bet is to use one or two oversized 212 cabs loaded with the proper speaker. This setup will ensure a tight low end.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those Celestion G12K-100s are awesome speakers for metal or anything with a lot of bottom. They do everything pretty well, but they can really handle some monster lows without farting out. 

Mike, I know what you mean about being on a budget. Ei made some killer preamp tubes that sound a lot like a Telefunken for a lot less money. I'd still go with the Raytheon black plate in V2. You don't have to budget a fortune for those two tubes. Like Marty said, if you buy smart on eBay you can get some deals. 

What are you running for power tubes? 2 EL34s? A good RFT EL34 will tighten up your amp better than any CP tubes. They really sound good in a Marshall. I've been seeing pairs from very reputable dealers on eBay for around $100 a pair. You could probably budget another $50 or $60 for a couple of really good pre's and have a nice setup.


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of the things I always concern myself with in regard to 7 string guitars is the speaker and size of the cab. Baritone and 7 string guitars need speakers that will reproduce the lower frequencies. Generally, the best bet is to use one or two oversized 212 cabs loaded with the proper speaker. This setup will ensure a tight low end.


 
Yes, that is where I was going with it. Mike uses G12K-100's. I keep hearing people on the forum complain about flub, flab and farting. But I don't think they are equating the speakers...the key component.

*A G12K-100 has a Fs of 85Hz. A drop C = 65Hz and a standard 7-string low = 59Hz.*

All the tubes and amp won't matter if the wrong speakers are used.

I know someone will chime in about this person uses that speaker with down tuning.... but what you read isn't always the total truth. They may also have to turn the low end down to accommodate their cabs.


----------



## mike mike

Marty I use an oversize 4x12 with G12k-100 speakers, as cagamp1 and riverratt pointed out, and JJ E34L. Yeah man budgets forsure, I just don't like spending a ton of money on tubes. I mean $100 is ok, but not all the time. I know the speakers are the right ones. I love them. I have tried them with a few amps and love everything about them. So it can't be them


----------



## mike mike

at least i don't think. but i have used the speakers with the marshall, peavey 6505+, and heard them in comparison to V30's with a Diezel herbert. love them. so is it my horrible preamp selection  ?


----------



## mike mike

cagamp1 said:


> Yes, that is where I was going with it. Mike uses G12K-100's. I keep hearing people on the forum complain about flub, flab and farting. But I don't think they are equating the speakers...the key component.
> 
> *A G12K-100 has a Fs of 85Hz. A drop C = 65Hz and a standard 7-string low = 59Hz.*
> 
> All the tubes and amp won't matter if the wrong speakers are used.
> 
> I know someone will chime in about this person uses that speaker with down tuning.... but what you read isn't always the total truth. They may also have to turn the low end down to accommodate their cabs.



 didn't know that. so... eminence speakers(which i find compressed) and yuck, are the only speakers that go that low...


----------



## cagamp1

mike mike said:


> didn't know that. so... eminence speakers(which i find compressed) and yuck, are the only speakers that go that low...


 
No. Actually the V30 can go lower...it just can't handle the same power.

I like G12H Heritage for low end. I also use JBL 2220 (15") and real Jensen P15N's.

A G12K-100 is great & designed for standard guitar low end...not bass.

This should actually move to your other thread.


----------



## mike mike

cagamp1 said:


> No. Actually the V30 can go lower...it just can't handle the same power.
> 
> I like G12H Heritage for low end. I also use JBL 2220 (15") and real Jensen P15N's.
> 
> A G12K-100 is great & designed for standard guitar low end...not bass.
> 
> This should actually move to your other thread.



maybe. thats funny about that. because i have heard these are designed for low end.(i didn't buy the cab knowing this, i was looking for a 1960, i was even told it had V30's in it, this was a year ago) but i am very happy with it so i have no idea. damn, my illusion, shattered


----------



## mike mike

this any good for metal? my preamp tubes disgust me lol

Rft ECC83


----------



## marvin

Thanks for all the help guys!
I would like to sell the EL37's. All I have that they might work in is a 63' Bassman 6G6-B circuit but about 15 years ago I put in an aux. transformer and a tube rectifier. It now has Mesa B. STR-415's in it. Assuming I can find someone to test them, about how much are the worth?

Other tubes that I have are 12AX7-WA Sylvania's and at least one Tung-Sol 7025. Several Raytheon Japan, 025 FO4. Matsushita 7D-7DPhilipsECG jg ALN, and a couple of other Japenese 12AX7A's 326 with a logo that I can't make out, (infinity like logo with maybe a IG in the center).

I have only three blackplates. Two are Realistic Long-life, the other is a 7025 with longer plates than the others. It has had some white labeling on it but has worn off.

Any recommendations on what tubes I should use to get a dark, vintage tone in my 72' 1959?


----------



## ken361

mike mike said:


> this any good for metal? my preamp tubes disgust me lol
> 
> Rft ECC83



I using one in my engl, good tubes!


----------



## Steve0525

mike mike said:


> this any good for metal? my preamp tubes disgust me lol
> 
> Rft ECC83



Not trying to be a jerk, but I'm always seeing you talk about how you don't have enough "low end" etc. But remember Mike your using an amp that just wasn't made to play that style of music...I love the 900, but if I was looking to buy a motorcycle to ride on the highway, I probably wouldn't buy a dirtbike....

Catch my drift???


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ratt-What's wrong with this picture and EBAY listing?

(Listing removed by me.)


----------



## RiverRatt

Other than the fact that they are RFTs?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just goes to show how much fake shit there is out there. AMPEREX never used a plain letter logo like that. It takes a lot of balls to put "West Germany" on the tubes. But then you take one look at them and it says, "RFT."

And of course the seller knows nothing about this. As far as he is concerned, these are real deal Amperex.


----------



## demonufo

Missed that. But how anybody can confuse RFT 12AX7's with just about anything else is beyond me. The most distinctive looking AX7 there is!!!!


----------



## mike mike

ken361 said:


> I using one in my engl, good tubes!



 can't wait to get my invader 150



Steve0525 said:


> Not trying to be a jerk, but I'm always seeing you talk about how you don't have enough "low end" etc. But remember Mike your using an amp that just wasn't made to play that style of music...I love the 900, but if I was looking to buy a motorcycle to ride on the highway, I probably wouldn't buy a dirtbike....
> 
> Catch my drift???



I guess you right. It's not the lack of low end(though that is there to) it's the fact that the low end is flubby and not tight.


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just goes to show how much fake shit there is out there. AMPEREX never used a plain letter logo like that. It takes a lot of balls to put "West Germany" on the tubes. But then you take one look at them and it says, "RFT."
> 
> And of course the seller knows nothing about this. As far as he is concerned, these are real deal Amperex.


 
I have to ask. There are ties between RFT and Philips. RFT also rebranded different names to Europe and America. Is it possible that RFT put out some 12AX7's for Amperex using their standard RFT block lettering? I saw no globe symbol. I'm not familiar with it...just asking.

I had seen the action earlier before you posted. The big thing that caught my attention about that auction was the very high Gm readings from a 533A. Those look more like English readings with those high numbers.


----------



## mike mike

RFT's look really cool with that logo!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

demonufo said:


> Missed that. But how anybody can confuse RFT 12AX7's with just about anything else is beyond me. The most distinctive looking AX7 there is!!!!



Here it is.

Amperex 12AX7A ECC83 Tubes W. Germany - eBay (item 270702565944 end time Feb-10-11 21:24:43 PST)


----------



## mike mike

marty do you think RFT's are right for me? regardless of the low end issue for 7 strings? just for metal in general(it is still good with 6 strings) so does RFT sound good for me?


----------



## BluesRocker

Mike, I say just roll a bunch.. Find out from your own ears which ones fit you.. Thats the way I found out.


----------



## mike mike

BluesRocker said:


> Mike, I say just roll a bunch.. Find out from your own ears which ones fit you.. Thats the way I found out.



 but money. but these are affordable. if i get one and like it, i will buy about 2 more. that way i can save them. but they don't die easy being nos FTW!! thanks everyone


----------



## BluesRocker

Nos t00bs rule! Marty does too!


----------



## Segovia

I've got some goodies coming from Marty sometime this week.
v1- RFT
v2- Raytheon Blackplate
v3- Sylvania
v4- Phillips made tube

Going into an otherwise 100% stock DSL100, replacing the stock tubes. I'll definitely report back in once they've made it here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> I have to ask. There are ties between RFT and Philips. RFT also rebranded different names to Europe and America. Is it possible that RFT put out some 12AX7's for Amperex using their standard RFT block lettering? I saw no globe symbol. I'm not familiar with it...just asking.
> 
> I had seen the action earlier before you posted. The big thing that caught my attention about that auction was the very high Gm readings from a 533A. Those look more like English readings with those high numbers.



What a lot of people don't know is that Amperex was a USA brand of tube that was bought out by Philips. Philips used the Amperex brand to sell a lot of their designs. Most of the Amperex that are made in Holland are MiniWatts. The Amperex tubes made in West Germany were made by Valvo. The slant top Valvo's are exceptional tubes and bring a fair penny on EBAY. If you find a slant top Amperex, it's really a Valvo.

Now, RFT was very big and made a bunch of tubes that were relabeled. Their EL34's were relabeled by more than a dozen of other companies. Telefunken hired RFT to make "Telefunken" tubes. I have quite a few of these. To the unknowing buyer, they look just like a smooth plate Tele, but for those who know there is one thing missing. "No diamond <> on the bottom of the tube." They do sound good, maybe not as good as a real Tele, but I would use them.

You never know what to think about test results. I thought my tester was fine until I tested a batch of tubes for RiverRatt. I thought one of the tubes had shorted and did some damage. I sent my 707 to a tech who specializes in this tester. He did a wonderful job. He changed out all of the electrolytics and calibrated the machine. It works like a pro, but I found out it had been testing a little low. This can be applied to the EBAY listings. Are the testers reading high or low? When was the last time they were serviced? Some sellers will say they own a tester and then say, "The tubes tested excellent on my Hickok 533." No test data. They just say it passed and you need to be happy with that.

The main thing I look at when buying tubes is that the seller has a solid reputation. I also look to see if they offer returns on their items. This makes for a safe transaction, because I get the tubes, I test them and if they are all good I then leave feedback.

While I think a tube tester is better than none at all, you would have to agree that most of these EBAY testers haven't seen a serviceman for years. Most tube testers are at least 45 years old.


----------



## BluesRocker

I would love to get a Tube Tester. Maybe sometime in the future I will..But in the mean time.. I am satisfied with having Marty around.


----------



## RiverRatt

mike mike said:


> marty do you think RFT's are right for me? regardless of the low end issue for 7 strings? just for metal in general(it is still good with 6 strings) so does RFT sound good for me?



Mike, you might want to pick up a Matsushita or two. They were owned by Philips and sound a lot like Mullards for a fraction of the price. Marty may have some, or if not they can usually be had for a reasonable price on ebay. Buy from sellers with good feedback and a return policy to be safe.


----------



## cagamp1

Thanks *Marty*. I knew some of that. Amperex/USA sells out.

Those tubes you pointed out are definitely RFT and don't look like the Valvo tubes I've seen. The only RFT 12AX7 I have is a Realistic.

Something else to note about RFT, which you may know and others may not, is that the RFT wasn't just a brand but a group banded together under the GDR in the 40's. You mentioned brands/companies...they were initially governed by the GDR (German Democratic Republic). And others bought from the RFT. At least that is the way I understand it.

I know a little about 533(A)'s and 12ax7 test new on them at ~1250. 2000 is way high and draws my attention. I track tester values on tubes I'm interested in collecting. I also check out a sellers tube testers values across the board for what he/she may have listed to compare to data charts when possible or need be. You can usually tell if they are reading high, low or off. I also check out feedback when needed.


----------



## marvin

Last night I had a little time to play. Here's what I ended up with in my 1959
V1-Mullard long plate
V2-T'sgram
V3-Tele smooth plate
It sounds pretty good. I am expecting one of Alex's Attenuators in the mail today will try a few more combinations tonight. I haven't tried the Tele ribbed plate yet or the Matsushita's.


----------



## mike mike

I am excited for some interesting tubes. Thanks Marvin! This could greatly perfect my 6 string tone!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

marvin said:


> Last night I had a little time to play. Here's what I ended up with in my 1959
> V1-Mullard long plate
> V2-T'sgram
> V3-Tele smooth plate
> It sounds pretty good. I am expecting one of Alex's Attenuators in the mail today will try a few more combinations tonight. I haven't tried the Tele ribbed plate yet or the Matsushita's.



Did the Tele not sound good in V1? I would use something else in V3 and save the Tele for a V1 tube. Just my opinion.


----------



## marvin

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did the Tele not sound good in V1? I would use something else in V3 and save the Tele for a V1 tube. Just my opinion.



I didn't actually try it in V1, limited time. I will give it a try tonight. I have several ribbed plate Tele's that I could try in V3, or open to your suggestions! Mulllards, black plates, etc.

BTW, Alex's attenuator rocks! Totally transparent. Now i can use my old 1982b cab. with the 20W silver bell Celestion's with the 1959 and not worry!


----------



## mike mike

marvin said:


> I didn't actually try it in V1, limited time. I will give it a try tonight. I have several short plate Tele's that I could try in V3, or open to your suggestions! Mulllards, black plates, etc.



That's what everybody says they are always good in v1 for most people. I have never tried anythin that fancy. I know people who use them and prefer them to mulards. but mullards are amazing to. That's just crazy. But you have all the components for awesome tone


----------



## RiverRatt

I like a Tele in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 in my DSL. Crank the clean channel volume up to at least 4 and the gain at around 2 o'clock. This is my favorite AC/DC, Def Leppard tone but the rest of the family doesn't like it so much (or the neighbors).


----------



## marvin

mike mike said:


> That's what everybody says they are always good in v1 for most people. I have never tried anythin that fancy. I know people who use them and prefer them to mulards. but mullards are amazing to. That's just crazy. But you have all the components for awesome tone



Hi Mike,
I got your tubes boxed up ready to mail tomorrow. But, there ain't no Tele's in the box! I'm a little short on them!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I like a Tele in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 in my DSL. Crank the clean channel volume up to at least 4 and the gain at around 2 o'clock. This is my favorite AC/DC, Def Leppard tone but the rest of the family doesn't like it so much (or the neighbors).



And that, boys and girls, is how to bring down the house!


----------



## mike mike

marvin said:


> Hi Mike,
> I got your tubes boxed up ready to mail tomorrow. But, there ain't no Tele's in the box! I'm a little short on them!



No prob!! Thanks again!


----------



## mike mike

marvin said:


> Hi Mike,
> I got your tubes boxed up ready to mail tomorrow. But, there ain't no Tele's in the box! I'm a little short on them!



No prob!! Thanks again!


----------



## dodgethis

Hey guys.

As mentioned in my other thread, the 12AX7 (white label Marshall) in the cathode follower on my JVM410H went out on me. I replaced it with the 12AX7 (red label) from the PI and a spare 12AU7 in the PI position now. 

Previously, I had 'problems' with Crunch Red being rather 'cleanish' without very little distortion. Now, I am getting a very nice amount of distortion from that mode and overall, the distortion seems to be a lot more smoother, as I can push the gain a lot higher without the bass becoming too flubby. I now seem to be able to run my master volume at higher levels but I guess that's due more to the 12AU7 in the PI. The pre-amp improvement has gotten me stumped as it seems to be a contradiction, more distortion in one mode but smoother overall smoother distortion. Does the tube in cathode follower make that much a difference to the overall tone?

I am also thinking of retubing my amp. I know I am going with JJ KT77s in the power amp with Tungsols for the gain tubes, Sovtek for the cathode follower and EH for the PI. However, I am at a lost of what to put in for for my V4, which handles the FX and reverb mixes, according to the JVM forum. What do you guys think is a good tube put in there?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## demonufo

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here it is.
> 
> Amperex 12AX7A ECC83 Tubes W. Germany - eBay (item 270702565944 end time Feb-10-11 21:24:43 PST)




Yup, pretty blatant. Oh well, I guess you just can't tell some people.


----------



## Segovia

RiverRatt said:


> I like a Tele in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 in my DSL. Crank the clean channel volume up to at least 4 and the gain at around 2 o'clock. This is my favorite AC/DC, Def Leppard tone but the rest of the family doesn't like it so much (or the neighbors).



This is great to hear....I have an RFT and a Raytheon black plate coming from Marty. Can't wait to try 'em out!


----------



## marvin

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did the Tele not sound good in V1? I would use something else in V3 and save the Tele for a V1 tube. Just my opinion.



OK Marty, I'm a believer! I have two more smooth plates so I pulled the long plate Mule from V1 and tried one in V1. Back and forth several times. Even me with my 65 year old blowed' out hearing from the 60's can tell the difference.

Any suggestions for V2,V3 other than the T'sgram in V2 and a smooth plate in V3?


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, y'all got me back in a Telefunken mood. I went and tried it in the Tweaker since I haven't done that yet. First, let me say that this little box is one of my favorite amps ever. I've had it for a month and it is really hard to find a bad tone in it. I had been running a Matsushita D in V1 and it was a little dark. The Tele brightened it up a lot, but there is an upper mid shift happening, too. When you've got the amp right at the edge of feedback, it's one of the most thick, harmonically rich tones I've heard. Very smooth.


----------



## MartyStrat54

marvin said:


> OK Marty, I'm a believer! I have two more smooth plates so I pulled the long plate Mule from V1 and tried one in V1. Back and forth several times. Even me with my 65 year old blowed' out hearing from the 60's can tell the difference.
> 
> Any suggestions for V2,V3 other than the T'sgram in V2 and a smooth plate in V3?



Well the most adaptive tube for V2 is the Raytheon Black Plate. However, if you have the Tele's to run, I would go with them in V1 and V2 and the Tungsram in V3.

V1 adds the most flavor and color. V2 adds, but it is V1 that sets the table. There is nothing wrong with running two Tele's back to back.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Alright, y'all got me back in a Telefunken mood. I went and tried it in the Tweaker since I haven't done that yet. First, let me say that this little box is one of my favorite amps ever. I've had it for a month and it is really hard to find a bad tone in it. I had been running a Matsushita D in V1 and it was a little dark. The Tele brightened it up a lot, but there is an upper mid shift happening, too. When you've got the amp right at the edge of feedback, it's one of the most thick, harmonically rich tones I've heard. Very smooth.



Hey Alan, what speakers are you running the Tweaker through?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's running through that little Marshall 1966B 2x12 cab with G12T-75s in it. They are well broken in and sound better than my 1960B cab.


----------



## Segovia

Got the tubes today Marty. Pure, 100% awesome. Thanks so much! I even decided to start a new thread because the amp sounds so good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's good news. Be sure you do a small write up on the tubes. I'd like to hear about that RFT.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good deal, Segovia! Now your addiction begins. We really should start a 12-step program.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Good deal, Segovia! Now your addiction begins. We really should start a 12-step program.



Yeah... We'd have the only 12 step program designed specifically to get people addicted!


----------



## RiverRatt

Got back from meeting with the HAM radio guy. I probably walked out of there with 500 tubes. He was giving me all kinds of stuff. About 90% were useless to me, but I did score 16 12AX7s. Most were old USA tubes like Tung-Sol and Sylvania military stuff, I did get one Telefunken and a Raytheon JRP. Also got about that many 12AU7s, some 12AT7s, one 12AY7, and two Mullard GZ34 rectifiers. I also got a line on a good Stancor tester. Not a bad day at all.

BTW Marty - the guy uses a B&K 747 tester. That thing is NIIICCCEEE.


----------



## RiverRatt

12AX7s:






12AU7s and 12AT7s:






GZ34s:






6P3Ss (6L6/5881) and 6V6s:


----------



## MartyStrat54

What a way to spend your afternoon. I may actually be able to get out over the next few days. We may even hit the high 50's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. My f'in PC just died. I can use the Mac in the music room for now, but dammit why does stuff like this always happen??? I know getting the .40 out and shooting the damned thing won't help, but it would make me feel better.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Well, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. My f'in PC just died. I can use the Mac in the music room for now, but dammit why does stuff like this always happen??? I know getting the .40 out and shooting the damned thing won't help, but it would make me feel better.



It wont help the computer out.. But if you film it, it will help me laugh some.. And give everyone some enjoyment.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got it going again. I must have picked up some kind of social disease from some of the seedier places I visit on the internet (no, not porn sites). Still got the .40 on-hand just in case.

I got to play through about half of the 12AX7s last night. So far they are all good and strong. One GE was noisy, but I think the pins need a good cleaning. The Tele and the Raytheon are both strong sounding. The Sylvania black plates are exceptionally smooth and I'll bet would sound great in a Fender. I can't decide what to do with the lot. They don't have the character of a European 12AX7 in a Marshall. I may have to sell that NOS NIB GZ34. It should bring well over $50 with the box and the paint being so good.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan, I bet those Sylvania's would sound good in the Ampeg you got.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I'm going to put them through it sooner or later. I have some new speakers coming for it so I'm going to wait for them.


----------



## BluesRocker

What did you end up getting?


----------



## RiverRatt

Just some cheap-ass guitar speakers off eBay. I think they are some sort of Eminence speaker - the seller called them "Famous Maker" speakers and said they couldn't list the brand name as they were selling them so cheap. I got a pair for around $26 plus $12 shipping. They have a pretty high resonance so maybe they'll take some of the woof out of the combo. It's a pretty cheap experiment.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Just some cheap-ass guitar speakers off eBay. I think they are some sort of Eminence speaker - the seller called them "Famous Maker" speakers and said they couldn't list the brand name as they were selling them so cheap. I got a pair for around $26 plus $12 shipping. They have a pretty high resonance so maybe they'll take some of the woof out of the combo. It's a pretty cheap experiment.



That sounds like a fun project.. haha.. If you dont like them hit me up, I have a set of Eminence Legends here.. 16ohms each..


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think he needs two 8's in series for a 16 ohm load.


----------



## BluesRocker

Didnt know that.. Just thought I would let him know I had a set.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I need a 16 ohm load as it sits. I could rewire the amp for an 8 ohm internal load - it would be as easy as swapping a couple of connections. How much for the Legends?


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I need a 16 ohm load as it sits. I could rewire the amp for an 8 ohm internal load - it would be as easy as swapping a couple of connections. How much for the Legends?



I dunno.. How much you give me?


----------



## RiverRatt

I have no idea what they are worth. I'm about to put a Peavey Ultraverb II on eBay or Craigslist and I'm going to sell a few tubes. Let me see how that does. You interested in any trades?


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, I thought the Legends only came in 8 ohms?


----------



## BluesRocker

These came out of my Soldano 4x12. They are 16 ohms.. And what did you have in mind?


----------



## johnfv

I got to spend a few minutes tonight with my 18W TMB auditioning various preamp tubes in the TMB channel (including the Mullard and Black Plate I just got from Marty). I gotta say the NOS tubes do sound great, a nice musical midrange and smooth top end; a 12AX7EH sounded downright harsh in comparison. This Mullard has a little less gain which helps with that "vintage" tone and it is my fav right now. Of the CP tubes I tried tonight my Tungsol was best, and I still like the JJ; I will do a similar comparison in some other amps next. I'm not ready to dispose of my CP stuff yet but I'm glad I got to sample some fine vintage. Thanks for giving me more GAS guys 

JV


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## mike mike

I just got back from my vacation, and there was a box in my mailbox, so i opened it up and these were inside:





not the best pictures, but there are two mullards(hammond and rca12ax7a), a sylvania 12ax7a, a GE 12ax7a, and a chinese. Marvin, thankyou so much you are the best!! 

marty, wanna tell me about them?


----------



## mike mike

Marty...


----------



## dodgethis

dodgethis said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> As mentioned in my other thread, the 12AX7 (white label Marshall) in the cathode follower on my JVM410H went out on me. I replaced it with the 12AX7 (red label) from the PI and a spare 12AU7 in the PI position now.
> 
> Previously, I had 'problems' with Crunch Red being rather 'cleanish' without very little distortion. Now, I am getting a very nice amount of distortion from that mode and overall, the distortion seems to be a lot more smoother, as I can push the gain a lot higher without the bass becoming too flubby. I now seem to be able to run my master volume at higher levels but I guess that's due more to the 12AU7 in the PI. The pre-amp improvement has gotten me stumped as it seems to be a contradiction, more distortion in one mode but smoother overall smoother distortion. Does the tube in cathode follower make that much a difference to the overall tone?
> 
> I am also thinking of retubing my amp. I know I am going with JJ KT77s in the power amp with Tungsols for the gain tubes, Sovtek for the cathode follower and EH for the PI. However, I am at a lost of what to put in for for my V4, which handles the FX and reverb mixes, according to the JVM forum. What do you guys think is a good tube put in there?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



Sweet, my Horizon may have sounded better through the tube swap but not the Strat. It now sounds all messy. I think a pot change is called for!


----------



## mike mike

is it normal for a mullard to brightly flash when the amp turns on?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

mike mike said:


> is it normal for a mullard to brightly flash when the amp turns on?



Dunno about Mullard's, but I have observed this phenomena with other tubes such as Matsushitas....


----------



## RiverRatt

mike mike said:


> is it normal for a mullard to brightly flash when the amp turns on?



Yup. Most Philips tubes flash. I even had some Chinese tubes that flash - I think they came in a Jet City head. There's a post a few hundred pages back about the how and why. Something to do with the filament having more resistance when it is cold. They won't do it except from a cold start.


----------



## RiverRatt

Speaking of, got my baby back all safe and sound Josh. Thanks!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Speaking of, got my baby back all safe and sound Josh. Thanks!



Awesome mate! Glad to hear it. That is one tube that seriously had me contemplating theft!


----------



## mike mike

thanks River Ratt. i tried mullard 12ax7a RCA in V1, Mullard 12ax7 Hammond in V2, and GE 12ax7a in V3, and man it sounds smooth!! any other combos i should try(refer to the post a ways abouve with my picture)


----------



## RiverRatt

Do you have a Raytheon? I'd try that in V2 with a Mullard in V1.


----------



## mike mike

no, i have these




jan sylvania 12ax7wa, Golden dragon, GE 12ax7a, Mullard RCA 12ax7a, mullard hammond 12ax7


----------



## marvin

Try switching V2 and V3 and see if there is a difference.

Or try any combination and see which you like best. The golden Dragon is probably the least desirable of them, although they sound good in my bassman.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Yup. Most Philips tubes flash. I even had some Chinese tubes that flash - I think they came in a Jet City head. There's a post a few hundred pages back about the how and why. Something to do with the filament having more resistance when it is cold. They won't do it except from a cold start.



Get this - I have a JJ ECC803S that flashes on startup, and one that doesn't.


----------



## mike mike

MM54 said:


> Get this - I have a JJ ECC803S that flashes on startup, and one that doesn't.



tubes are archaic devices, they are all different. man i am sooooooooooo happy with these tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Get this - I have a JJ ECC803S that flashes on startup, and one that doesn't.



Shhhhhh! Bob will start screening out the ones that flash and doubling the price! That's just what the world needs - a JJ ECC803S gold pin balanced low noise phase inverter tube that flashes on startup. I'd pay $50 for it.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Shhhhhh! Bob will start screening out the ones that flash and doubling the price! That's just what the world needs - a JJ ECC803S gold pin balanced low noise phase inverter tube that flashes on startup. I'd pay $50 for it.


----------



## mike mike

RiverRatt said:


> Shhhhhh! Bob will start screening out the ones that flash and doubling the price! That's just what the world needs - a JJ ECC803S gold pin balanced low noise phase inverter tube that flashes on startup. I'd pay $50 for it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> no, i have these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jan sylvania 12ax7wa, Golden dragon, GE 12ax7a, Mullard RCA 12ax7a, mullard hammond 12ax7



Swap the GE with the WA. You may or may not like the difference. Generally a WA is a pretty nice tube and I would rate it over the regular GE.

Stick with the Mullards in V1 and V2. You can swap these two around and see which order sounds best.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Generally I would use a WA over a regular GE. You might want to swap them around and see how that sounds. Stick with the Mullards in V1 and V2. You can however swap these two around and see what order sounds best. You will want the strongest Mullard in V1. You will have to use your ear to determine which Mullard seems to be the strongest.


----------



## mike mike

thanks Marty. Are these all pretty damn awesome tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thought I had lost a post, but it came back from out of nowhere. Oh well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> thanks Marty. Are these all pretty damn awesome tubes?



If you are just getting into tube rolling, these are some good tubes to begin with (except for the Chinese tube).


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Shhhhhh! Bob will start screening out the ones that flash and doubling the price! That's just what the world needs - a JJ ECC803S gold pin balanced low noise phase inverter tube that flashes on startup. I'd pay $50 for it.



Stop giving Bob ideas. Speaking of Bob. He isn't getting much love over on that Eurotubes thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I finally read that one. I loved that "Myles off" line on the EL844 quote that Wilder posted. Any doubts as to who he was poking with that stick?


----------



## mike mike

what is tube rolling? i am not selling any of these btw. i heard the chinese is actually not that bad


----------



## RiverRatt

Tube rolling is just swapping tubes around. Kind of a "roll your own" tone. FWIW, I like Chinese tubes better than anything that starts with a J or is made in Russia.


----------



## mike mike

haha. JJ's are the best CP preamp tube for metal, but they are still not very good. the mullards and GE and the others KILL


----------



## MM54

I've never given the GE's much of a shot, I stumbled across 8 RCA longplates from 1960 a while back and have traded off half of them, and the rest are my 'utility tubes' in my amps. I have two boxplate GE's like that and one with the normal looking longplates, I may roll them around sometime soon, it's been long time since I've swapped some tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I finally read that one. I loved that "Myles off" line on the EL844 quote that Wilder posted. Any doubts as to who he was poking with that stick?



Yeah I caught it. It was just Jon's way of being a little "Rosey."


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I've never given the GE's much of a shot, I stumbled across 8 RCA longplates from 1960 a while back and have traded off half of them, and the rest are my 'utility tubes' in my amps. I have two boxplate GE's like that and one with the normal looking longplates, I may roll them around sometime soon, it's been long time since I've swapped some tubes.



Ever seen any of these? I hadn't until I ran across a pair in an old tube caddy. Red letter G.E. tubes. I don't have a clue - I've never even read about these anywhere.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I caught it. It was just Jon's way of being a little "Rosey."



That was Bob's quote - Wilder was just quoting him.


----------



## MM54

Wow, that's weird, I've never seen red printed GE logos either, the three I have are standard white, but I do have one with that plate structure, like I said.


----------



## mike mike

I have seen the red plates but don't know much about them. 

So I tested everything and recorded it. All for reference, and this is what I ended up with
V1-Mullard Hammond ECC83
V2-Mullard RCA 12ax7A
V3-GE 12ax7A

I moved everything around and this was the best. The differences between the mullards were very subtle, but after many listens the earlier Hammond was the best for V1. V3, the GE was tighter. The Sylvania was close, but was a little boomy in the lows. Wow this setup makes my amp sound amazing


----------



## cagamp1

You guys run across BEL(India) made tubes much? They are made identical to Mullard...kinda like those Mats.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm familiar with BEL but I don't have any. I think Marty mentioned having some awhile back. They turn up on eBay from time to time. They are definitely on my to-do list.


----------



## MartyStrat54

cagamp1 said:


> You guys run across BEL(India) made tubes much? They are made identical to Mullard...kinda like those Mats.



Yes I have some. You are right, they are made like a Mullard. Damn nice tube.


----------



## demonufo

RiverRatt said:


> Ever seen any of these? I hadn't until I ran across a pair in an old tube caddy. Red letter G.E. tubes. I don't have a clue - I've never even read about these anywhere.



Those red printed GE's look like military designated tubes (you can tell from the typeset of the 12AX7 printing).
I have three from 1959 that I bought for $30 each a while back from Terry Kilgore when he bought a load of virgin crates discovered in a Mexican silo.
They are incredibly good tubes that I rate very highly. Up with my Mullards (which are getting tired) and I'd take them over my Tele's, Brimars, Mazda's, and RFT's anyday. Not sure I'd choose them over my Tungsrams, Bugle Boy's though.

Any date codes printed on those?

Edit: Just checked through my stash. My GE's look IDENTICAL to these in every way.


----------



## mike mike

Nice info demon. GE tubes are amazing. Especially for phase inverter


----------



## demonufo

Got any Sylvania 12AX7's Marty?
My last Baldwin took a crap a long time back.
I'm not sure I can really afford the coin though, but it's worth an ask I guess.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What's the cheapest way to send to England? I've done it before several different ways. One was to devalue the item to under $20. This is okay to do as long as nothing gets broke.

I could make you a deal on a Sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> Nice info demon. GE tubes are amazing. Especially for phase inverter



A lot of people forget about a select line from GE known as "Five Stars." These were some of the finest USA tubes made. They are hard to locate and they get grabbed on EBAY.


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> A lot of people forget about a select line from GE known as "Five Stars." These were some of the finest USA tubes made. They are hard to locate and they get grabbed on EBAY.



Sounds awesome. The one I have I'm pretty sure is made in Gt. Britain. But I am not sure


----------



## demonufo

mike mike said:


> Sounds awesome. The one I have I'm pretty sure is made in Gt. Britain. But I am not sure



Probably a rebranded Mullard.

Other possibility (less likely) is a Brimar.


----------



## demonufo

MartyStrat54 said:


> What's the cheapest way to send to England? I've done it before several different ways. One was to devalue the item to under $20. This is okay to do as long as nothing gets broke.
> 
> I could make you a deal on a Sylvania.



To be quite honest I'm not too sure. But I don't want to get anybody in trouble with the tax-man. The best way these days is to quote "return under warranty", but that's really naughty. Even a lot of declared "gifts" seem to get collared for tax lately.
Just do it however your comfortable, I'll take the hit.


----------



## cagamp1

Red GE...I know I've seen red GE power tubes out of the Canada plant.

Any connection to the red print 12ax7...Canadian codes maybe?


----------



## cagamp1

5-Star, Gold Brand and Command...all top notch.


----------



## RiverRatt

demonufo said:


> Those red printed GE's look like military designated tubes (you can tell from the typeset of the 12AX7 printing).
> I have three from 1959 that I bought for $30 each a while back from Terry Kilgore when he bought a load of virgin crates discovered in a Mexican silo.
> They are incredibly good tubes that I rate very highly. Up with my Mullards (which are getting tired) and I'd take them over my Tele's, Brimars, Mazda's, and RFT's anyday. Not sure I'd choose them over my Tungsrams, Bugle Boy's though.
> 
> Any date codes printed on those?
> 
> Edit: Just checked through my stash. My GE's look IDENTICAL to these in every way.



they have a 188 EIA code so I'm assuming they are GE USA production. There's a date code above the EIA code that looks like 60-31, but some of the paint is gone and it's hard to tell. I didn't think they were still using 17mm plates in 1960.

I remember that Kilgore silo deal. Me and Marty were trying to buy some ultra rare side-getter 12AX7s from that lot. It never materialized. He called them RCA tubes but from his description they sound more like those Sonotones that I've got 3 or 4 of. Excellent tubes, but IIRC he was asking $45 each.

I scored several military Sylvania long black plates in that trade last Saturday. I haven't tested them yet, but I did trot them all through the DSL. They didn't sound bad at all, and that was before I realized that the #@$# tone shift button was pushed in. How does that happen???


----------



## RiverRatt

demonufo said:


> Probably a rebranded Mullard.
> 
> Other possibility (less likely) is a Brimar.



Here's a GE Mullard that I bought off eBay from greengirl. It WAS an excellent sounding tube until I fumbled it and bounced it off a Les Paul and a guitar stand. Now it shows a short.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a GE Mullard that I bought off eBay from greengirl. It WAS an excellent sounding tube until I fumbled it and bounced it off a Les Paul and a guitar stand. Now it shows a short.



That sucks mate. GE's are great "go-to" utility tubes. Bummer!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I remember when that happened. Ever so often I get a tube that I think was dropped, because it doesn't pass the audio test. Some of these tubes will work in the V3 or V4 slots, but if it has a short it won't work anywhere.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a Sencore tester today. It's just an emissions tester, but it's a good one. It doesn't show any shorts on that GE/Mullard. I had a Raytheon that got a mica chip somewhere it shouldn't have been that tested and sounded weak only to have the tube suddenly come to life. I'll have to give it a try sometime and see what the tone is like.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man you are getting to be the collector of tube testers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Maybe one of these days I'll get one that works good


----------



## cagamp1

cagamp1 said:


> Red GE...I know I've seen red GE power tubes out of the Canada plant.
> 
> Any connection to the red print 12ax7...Canadian codes maybe?


 
Spoke to soon...I see red on Canadian and USA, 188-5's


----------



## RiverRatt

I got one 5-star box in that trunkload of tubes I came home with Saturday. Of course, it would be empty. I think I may sell off some of the 12AU7s and maybe the 12AY7. I might part with a few of those Sylvania long black plates, too. I'm about to go and check them and see how they read.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Dunno if y'all are interested, but I have a bunch of new folded up ProComm labled boxes for 12AX7's and EL84's if anyone out there can put them to use... I've got a couple good stacks of 'em and am really not likely to ever need to keep more than a few for spares...






Camera Phone + Bad Lighting + Drowsiness = Sorry for the crappy picture, but you get the idea...


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> I got one 5-star box in that trunkload of tubes I came home with Saturday. Of course, it would be empty. I think I may sell off some of the 12AU7s and maybe the 12AY7. I might part with a few of those Sylvania long black plates, too. I'm about to go and check them and see how they read.


 
What kind of 12ay7?


----------



## marvin

I've got about a dozen AT7's that I will probably never use if anyone is interested. I have no idea what they're worth, would have to trust you on that.

BTW, I have those Chinese golden Dragon's in my Bassman and they sound OK.


----------



## rlconklin

**delete


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> What kind of 12ay7?



My bad. It was a 12AV7.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> A lot of people forget about a select line from GE known as "Five Stars." These were some of the finest USA tubes made. They are hard to locate and they get grabbed on EBAY.



How can you tell them from other GE's by looking at the tube? I think this would be one of those things that's good to know 



joshuaaewallen said:


> Dunno if y'all are interested, but I have a bunch of new folded up ProComm labled boxes for 12AX7's and EL84's if anyone out there can put them to use... I've got a couple good stacks of 'em and am really not likely to ever need to keep more than a few for spares...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camera Phone + Bad Lighting + Drowsiness = Sorry for the crappy picture, but you get the idea...




I actually could use some of those. Send me a PM if you don't mind parting with them.

As you may or may not know, I have a massive stash of NOS radio/TV tubes that I keep in trays in my shop, trying to find somewhere to sell them to (Most of them will wind up on ebay this summer). Most of them don't have boxes. I'm moving in a month and have no room to keep them in trays, and I don't want to just toss them in a box or stack them (glass on glass is scary and unorganized), so I was planning on getting a shitload of boxes and boxing them all and making a case which would keep them up on end and safe. At least 3/4 of them are the little T6 bulbs (ala 12AX7) and would fit in those boxes perfectly.


----------



## cagamp1

MM54 said:


> How can you tell them from other GE's by looking at the tube? I think this would be one of those things that's good to know


 
Are you yankin chains? 5-star...you know, it has a picture of the General on it.

the 1-eyes have a picture of Popeye...Aak, kaa, ka, ka!


----------



## demonufo

RiverRatt said:


> I remember that Kilgore silo deal. Me and Marty were trying to buy some ultra rare side-getter 12AX7s from that lot. It never materialized. He called them RCA tubes but from his description they sound more like those Sonotones that I've got 3 or 4 of. Excellent tubes, but IIRC he was asking $45 each.



Hmm, I wonder if that was the tubes he was describing as RCA "Meatballs" that he was selling just a month or so later? I was broke at the time, and not so curious.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't remember. I ran across a post of his where he was calling them his favorite 12AX7 ever. Since I had a handful already, I emailed him and asked him what he knew about them. That's when he said he had just scored a "bucket" of them. It never got past the first couple of emails, but I'd like to have bought at least one just to have in my collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

I checked my email and it was back in November of 2009 when we were talking to Terry about those RCAs. I'd post his email here for posterity's sake, but it's like 600 words and just one big run-on sentence.

Here's an excerpt:

"i have found 3 in seven years! they are exceptional tubes and coveted like hamburg valvos and tele 803s imagine my shock when uncovering a small pail size barrel full of 1955s . thats why you dont see them they were very limited in production and very difficult to make. from all i could find out about them , they are probably the best sounding of all tubes ever made in the usa because ive summed just about everything against them and they always win place show,regardless of circuit or gain ,large and small"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I got involved in that and was wanting to buy say 20 of them. However, I emphasized that each tube needed to be tested and I think this is where the deal went south. I didn't want to dish out a lot of money on half-assed tubes.

EDIT: There may have been a reason they were all in that pail.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well once again we have some tube threads being started that could have been answered quicker and with more input here on this thread.

I have to question why someone would post that they read 100 pages of this thread and didn't find a suitable answer.

The real question is why didn't they just post their question and let some of us guys answer it? I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are newbies and they just want to start their own threads.

It's sort of a shame, because it is questions like, "What is better, Telefunken or Mullard?" that belong over here so others could share the input from certain key members of this thread.

Oh well. To all that are reading this. If you have a question, just post it up. You will get more solid replies here than posting on the general board in a new thread.


----------



## marvin

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well once again we have some tube threads being started that could have been answered quicker and with more input here on this thread.
> 
> I have to question why someone would post that they read 100 pages of this thread and didn't find a suitable answer.
> 
> The real question is why didn't they just post their question and let some of us guys answer it? I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are newbies and they just want to start their own threads.
> 
> It's sort of a shame, because it is questions like, "What is better, Telefunken or Mullard?" that belong over here so others could share the input from certain key members of this thread.
> 
> Oh well. To all that are reading this. If you have a question, just post it up. You will get more solid replies here than posting on the general board in a new thread.



OK, fair enough. How would you describe the difference between Tele smooth plate and Tele ribbed plate 12AX7/ ECC83's?

I haven't had time to try them and find out for myself.


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, this is headed your way. It's a Sylvania JHS 12AX7. Long shiny black plates, D getter, very similar to a Raytheon, maybe a tad darker. Just got finished blasting it in the DSL. Enjoy!


----------



## RiverRatt

marvin said:


> OK, fair enough. How would you describe the difference between Tele smooth plate and Tele ribbed plate 12AX7/ ECC83's?
> 
> I haven't had time to try them and find out for myself.



Like others have said, the smooth plate is a more refined tone. Excellent clarity and detail. IMO the ribbed plate Tele's have a little more "grunt" than the smooth variety. They color your tone more than the smooth plates, but not in a bad way.

I've been digging a Siemens und Halske in V1 lately. It is a pretty unique sounding tube. It has a lot of that Tele smooth plate detail but with more crunch when pushed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I actually prefer the ribbed Tele in V1 over the smooth plate. The smooth plate is a great tube and is the choice of many a hifi geek, but the ribbed just seems to be the better guitar tube. It has a great clean tone, but it just gets crunchier than the smooth when pushed. The ribbed Tele shines in a DSL or TSL. Overall, the ribbed Tele is my customer's favorite V1.


----------



## cagamp1

I agree with the others on Tele Smoothies...warm, accurate and nice highs. Like mentioned, almost too clean for (high gain) guitar, unless that is what you are after.

I read that Twin swears by the Ei Smoothies. Has anyone else compared the two. I have a GT7025, it's an Ei smoothy, but haven't gotten to it.

I haven't done much tube rolling to do comparisons, but for reasons my favorite reference tube is actually Chinese, Audio Glassic Premium 12ax7apr...nice through all of the range, good breakup and powerful...at least to my ears.

I have Sovtek Premium, 12ax7wxt+, that I consider pretty good too. Those are very powerful with more breakup.

But I haven't compared any to vintage glass yet...one day.


----------



## marvin

Thanks guys! I have quite a few tele ribbed plates, look forward to the time when I can compare them to the "smoothies"!

P.S. I have two fairly new EI smoothies. I guess we're not talking about these though. ?


----------



## cagamp1

Seems like you can get a complete set of good tubes for the price of a couple of smooth plate Tele's.

There is a guy on Ebay with a dozen that test about new...$638 right now with more than 2 days to go. Geeze! Well at least he offers free shipping.


----------



## RiverRatt

marvin said:


> Thanks guys! I have quite a few tele ribbed plates, look forward to the time when I can compare them to the "smoothies"!
> 
> P.S. I have two fairly new EI smoothies. I guess we're not talking about these though. ?



I can't do a fair comparison because all my Ei tubes are really, really strong. Whatever Tele-style clarity they have is lost in all that gain. Like my Raytheon JRPs, they are almost too strong to use unless you like high-gain tones.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

marvin said:


> Thanks guys! I have quite a few tele ribbed plates, look forward to the time when I can compare them to the "smoothies"!
> 
> P.S. I have two fairly new EI smoothies. I guess we're not talking about these though. ?



I had the exact same thought... I've got a ribbed plate on order w/ Marty that once it arrives, and I am done moving, I plan to do a side by side comparison w/ the smooth plate over at my tube auditioning thread...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh, this is headed your way. It's a Sylvania JHS 12AX7. Long shiny black plates, D getter, very similar to a Raytheon, maybe a tad darker. Just got finished blasting it in the DSL. Enjoy!



Holy wow mate! Totally unnecessary, but AWESOME! I may have to do more than send few boxes out to you... (Sorry to Matt and Marty, but Alan was quicker on the draw, so I had already promised the boxes to him before either of you posted or pm'd...)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> ... I actually could use some of those. Send me a PM if you don't mind parting with them.
> 
> As you may or may not know, I have a massive stash of NOS radio/TV tubes that I keep in trays in my shop, trying to find somewhere to sell them to (Most of them will wind up on ebay this summer). Most of them don't have boxes. I'm moving in a month and have no room to keep them in trays, and I don't want to just toss them in a box or stack them (glass on glass is scary and unorganized), so I was planning on getting a shitload of boxes and boxing them all and making a case which would keep them up on end and safe. At least 3/4 of them are the little T6 bulbs (ala 12AX7) and would fit in those boxes perfectly.



Hey Bro... As I noted in a different post... My apologies, but Alan spoke up first so I promised them to him already. But... If I come across more I will let you know (I seem to find more of this sort of thing than actual tubes most of the time).


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, you're good! I wish I had an extra 'Shita D to send you. I've only got 3, and one of those is noisy. I'm always looking out for them, so if I run across a deal I'll pass it along. I compared my newer D getter to a 1966 Blackburn Mullard while I was trying your tube out and the 'Shita blew it out of the water. It is a powerful sounding tube. Luv them long plates!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Nah, you're good! I wish I had an extra 'Shita D to send you. I've only got 3, and one of those is noisy. I'm always looking out for them, so if I run across a deal I'll pass it along. I compared my newer D getter to a 1966 Blackburn Mullard while I was trying your tube out and the 'Shita blew it out of the water. It is a powerful sounding tube. Luv them long plates!



The long plates should hold up for me better now that I am running my TSL as a head instead of a combo too. In the past I did have a issue w/ long plate tubes becoming rattly in my combo, but I have not observed any such phenomena since I converted to the head style set-up... Which is good 'cause they definitely sound goooood.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

What's the "JHS" delineation?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a military designation. Don't know the particulars - someone posted several of those prefixes awhile back but for some reason I didn't save it. I usually keep a copy of stuff like that.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> It's a military designation. Don't know the particulars - someone posted several of those prefixes awhile back but for some reason I didn't save it. I usually keep a copy of stuff like that.



Far out. I'm looking forward to having a go at it. Thanks mate!


----------



## MartyStrat54

12 tubes ECC83 TELEFUNKEN smooth plates 12AX7, ECC 83 - eBay (item 190499130478 end time Feb-19-11 03:05:23 PST)

I need help buying these. Please PayPal me any donations.

Marty


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> 12 tubes ECC83 TELEFUNKEN smooth plates 12AX7, ECC 83 - eBay (item 190499130478 end time Feb-19-11 03:05:23 PST)
> 
> I need help buying these. Please PayPal me any donations.
> 
> Marty



Pocket change, eh mate?

That's $53.17 per tube... Group contribution and everyone gets a tubes? (... well 12 people anyway,,,)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... Of course with already 22 bids that listing is likely to get mighty expensive!


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn. I have a couple of nice smoothies. Those prices make me think I might want to sell them and buy a sack of Ei's and take the wife out to dinner on the rest.

Josh, I think that long plate Sylvania will be fine for you. They are a rugged, military spec tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... Josh, I think that long plate Sylvania will be fine for you. They are a rugged, military spec tube.



Oh I'm sure of that too... I haven't had any problems with long plate tubes at all since I pulled the chassis out of the combo. That, along with the infinitely better heat dissipation, was a factor in my decision to convert my amp to a head instead of a combo.


----------



## marvin

I stole a little time from what I should have been doing this evening and tried a Tele ribbed plate in V1 of the 1959. I also tried a Matsu. I went back to the Tele smooth plate.

V1=Tele smoothplate
V2=Tele smoothplate
V3=T'gram

1960A cab with 30W anniversary's, Alex's Attenuator
Parker Fly, basswood neck, poplar body, trem. model


----------



## cagamp1

joshuaaewallen said:


> What's the "JHS" delineation?


 
For info...this is how I understand it.

"J" type designations were formed under the JAN (Joint Army Navy) system which replaced the "VT" system. It is the "J" + the original RMA(EIA) manufacturer acronym.

JHS ---> J=Joint Army Navy & HS=Highgrade Sylvania


----------



## demonufo

marvin said:


> I stole a little time from what I should have been doing this evening and tried a Tele ribbed plate in V1 of the 1959. I also tried a Matsu. I went back to the Tele smooth plate.
> 
> V1=Tele smoothplate
> V2=Tele smoothplate
> V3=T'gram
> 
> 1960A cab with 30W anniversary's, Alex's Attenuator
> Parker Fly, basswood neck, poplar body, trem. model



Interesting. I prefer Tungsrams in V1 of vintage marshalls. (I don't do any tube rolling in anything after the Master Mk II's, and usually use 2204 and 1987 as benchmarks)
In fact the Tungsrams I have I was never too keen on, until somebody tipped me that they take a bit of burn-in time to really come into their own. I was quite surprised by this, but they do definitely sweeten use with a bit of use. Never really noticed much of a settling period with other tubes.


----------



## MM54

I've got glass GAS again guys 

I have a couple tubes on the way, but beyond that I have no money to buy anything. I'm hoping soon I'll be able to get back at perusing yard sales and stuff. As always I tell everyone I know to keep an eye out for anything with tubes, but I've not found anything since that 30's Philco radio last August (Well, I found a Raytheon 6V6 the other day in a box of junk, but it tests at about 15%). The only possible lead I have is the guy from the music shop I sometimes look at amps for said he was at someone's house and they had "some tubes, old GE and stuff still in the box." I'm going to see him Monday about a couple things and will ask if I can get in touch with them somehow then.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> For info...this is how I understand it.
> 
> "J" type designations were formed under the JAN (Joint Army Navy) system which replaced the "VT" system. It is the "J" + the original RMA(EIA) manufacturer acronym.
> 
> JHS ---> J=Joint Army Navy & HS=Highgrade Sylvania



Thanks, man. I thought it was you who posted that but I wasn't sure.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I've got glass GAS again guys
> 
> I have a couple tubes on the way, but beyond that I have no money to buy anything. I'm hoping soon I'll be able to get back at perusing yard sales and stuff. As always I tell everyone I know to keep an eye out for anything with tubes, but I've not found anything since that 30's Philco radio last August (Well, I found a Raytheon 6V6 the other day in a box of junk, but it tests at about 15%). The only possible lead I have is the guy from the music shop I sometimes look at amps for said he was at someone's house and they had "some tubes, old GE and stuff still in the box." I'm going to see him Monday about a couple things and will ask if I can get in touch with them somehow then.



There must be millions of 6V6s out there. They turn up more often than any common power tube and you can barely give them away. I've probably got as many 6V6s as I do rectifiers, and that's saying something.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> There must be millions of 6V6s out there. They turn up more often than any common power tube and you can barely give them away. I've probably got as many 6V6s as I do rectifiers, and that's saying something.



Interesting. I can honestly say I don't think I have many 6V6s, if I do I don't remember having them. Now it's bothering me, I'm going to go check.

Okay well it turns out I do have some, 4 to be exact. I have at least a half dozen 5U4 rectifiers, so I see what you mean. I don't know why I didn't know I had those down there... I really need to get all these tubes more organized


----------



## RiverRatt

I counted 15 various GE's and Tung-Sol 6V6s, counting the four that are in my 5E3X2. I probably have a few more that aren't in the main box. Oops. Make that 16. I forgot the metal one I got last week.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does anyone have any Five Star GE's?


----------



## cagamp1

MartyStrat54 said:


> Does anyone have any Five Star GE's?


 
Yes, why?

Nope, haven't finished testing or tried in any amp yet.


----------



## ToneZone100

I have the standard Marshall branded tubes in my DSL100 and was going to get a few different pre amp tubes off ebay to mix and match them. I had a read through this thread and it became clear that you guys are using various spec tubes other than the standard ecc83/ 12ax7. 
I've had a look on ebay and there are loads of tubes that look similar in size and pin layout to 12ax7 (such as ebf83, 12AT7,EAM86, 6cG7) but they aren't listed as ecc83 or 12ax7.
What tubes will work in place of ecc83's or 12ax7's.
Also is there any do's and dont's when looking for tubes on ebay?


----------



## marvin

cagamp1 said:


> Yes, why?
> 
> Nope, haven't finished testing or tried in any amp yet.



Please post a pic of the five star.


----------



## Segovia

ToneZone100 said:


> I have the standard Marshall branded tubes in my DSL100 and was going to get a few different pre amp tubes off ebay to mix and match them. I had a read through this thread and it became clear that you guys are using various spec tubes other than the standard ecc83/ 12ax7.
> I've had a look on ebay and there are loads of tubes that look similar in size and pin layout to 12ax7 (such as ebf83, 12AT7,EAM86, 6cG7) but they aren't listed as ecc83 or 12ax7.
> What tubes will work in place of ecc83's or 12ax7's.
> Also is there any do's and dont's when looking for tubes on ebay?



I would either wait for Marty to respond here, or just shoot him a pm with what you're looking to change about the sound of your amp. I literally just got a set of 4 pre's from him for my DSL100 and I absolutely love what I ended up with. For somebody like me who was/is a tube noob, it was alot easier to deal with Marty than it would be scouring eBay looking for deals.


----------



## cagamp1

ToneZone100 said:


> I have the standard Marshall branded tubes in my DSL100 and was going to get a few different pre amp tubes off ebay to mix and match them. I had a read through this thread and it became clear that you guys are using various spec tubes other than the standard ecc83/ 12ax7.
> I've had a look on ebay and there are loads of tubes that look similar in size and pin layout to 12ax7 (such as ebf83, 12AT7,EAM86, 6cG7) but they aren't listed as ecc83 or 12ax7.
> What tubes will work in place of ecc83's or 12ax7's.
> Also is there any do's and dont's when looking for tubes on ebay?


 
If your amp calls for a 12ax7 in a specific slot, than you need a 9-pin miniature of the same/similar/equivalent. Some have less amplification but all are similar constructed with the same pin out. However if replacing a 12ax7 cathode follower, you should only use a 12ax7/ecc83 type or maybe a 12au7/ecc82 type.

Also, you have to keep an eye on heater current usage as to not overload the filament supply.

All-in-all, you have to cross-reference equivalent type tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, the 12AT7 is usually pretty safe substitution, but the rest in your list are a no-no. I use the Duncan Amps TDSL search for a quick data sheet find or an equivalent list. This is by no means all-inclusive but it'll give you an idea as to whether the specs match. About all I sub in my Marshall is a 12AT7, 12AY7, or 5751. I've also used a 12BZ7 in the first gain stage but it seems that Marshalls are really hard on these tubes. 

Here's a link to the Duncan Amps site. There's also a stand-alone tube data app that you can run on your PC.

TDSL Tube search


----------



## cagamp1

*5-stars*: the first 2 are a 5751 gray, the second two are a 6072A black plate

View attachment 4695
View attachment 4696
View attachment 4697
View attachment 4698


I have other GE's that may be 5-star, but the white lettering comes off so easily.


----------



## marvin

thanks for the pics. I don't think I have any of those.


----------



## demonufo

cagamp1 said:


> However if replacing a 12ax7 cathode follower, you should only use a 12ax7/ecc83 type or maybe a 12au7/ecc82 type.



You also need to be careful with the phase invertor. For instance the 12aU7 does not have enough current delivery to do a good job in this position. The even lower gain 12aT7 does however.


----------



## cagamp1

demonufo said:


> You also need to be careful with the phase invertor. For instance the 12aU7 does not have enough current delivery to do a good job in this position. The even lower gain 12aT7 does however.


 
I'm not following. I thougt phase inverters/amplifier type circuits were fairly low current.


----------



## johnfv

I thought I had read that both the 12AT7 and 12AU7 can push _more_ current than a 12AX7? 

I'm no tube expert but I know hear more headroom in a variety of amps when replacing a 12AX7 PI with a 12AT7.


----------



## Inkalen

1 post ever, just had to try - been a regular lurker through 267 pages !!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some amp builders "design" their PI to use a 12AT7. However, if the amp came with a 12AX7 for the PI, I say stick with that. In fact, a lopsided, high gain tube seems to work best.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Inkalen said:


> 1 post ever, just had to try - been a regular lurker through 267 pages !!!



Welcome. Glad to have you. We have quite a few Brit tube rollers here on this thread.

Are you looking to roll some tubes?


----------



## demonufo

You will still get increased headroom with a 12au7 due to the decrease in gain, but they do deliver somewhat less than the x7 and the t7, and on earlier marshalls in particular when cranked the 12au7 can sound pretty nasty in the PI.

The 12AT7 can be used in the PI of an 1987 with great results when cranked.


----------



## Inkalen

Hmmm - trying to find out how to work this system...

Have heaps of tubes by now, at least by my standards - way to many all due to this wonderful thread 

A couple of hundred pages ago somebody (can't remember the name) was describing how he had become completely obsessed with tubes after following you guys. I had it exactly the same way, would set the alarm to check ebay auctions in the middle of the night and dream about Mullards, Telefunkes, Raytheons and Whatnot the remaining. Around page 160 I took a deep breath, looked at my bank statement, lost my breath very quickly and realized this had to cool down.

So I have managed to stay away for a while and now feel that I can manage this as a grown up adult


----------



## cagamp1

Tube gas is bad for your pocket book.


----------



## johnfv

demonufo said:


> ...The 12AT7 can be used in the PI of an 1987 with great results when cranked.


I love 12AT7 in my plexi 1959


----------



## Inkalen

cagamp1 said:


> Tube gas is bad for your pocket book.



Incredibly bad, and honestly how many tubes does one need 

Think my stash will outlast me quite a bit by now 

And still, it is so fun and I just won a couple more on ebay. At least now I can be selective, let the most expensive go and pick odd sleeper ones instead.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome aboard, Inkalen! I wish I could think of something to say but I came home from the office early today and took a liberal dose of high-octane cough medicine with a Kentucky chaser. Damned kids are always bringing home some virus. I've been lucky so far but this one got me. 

I used to like a 12AT7 PI but my amp and mind was opened by throwing a few high-gain 12AX7s in there. To me, running a low-gain tube as a PI is like running a lean fuel mix in your car. Yes, it'll run but you can't get that full-throttle roar. The tone stack/cathode follower tube IMO is the least important tone-wise. I hear some difference in tone but it's very slight and it doesn't seem to matter how strong the tube is. 

Now, back to the couch...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry to hear you are under the weather Mr. Ratt. 

Tube tone and performance is highly subjective. If you like a 12AT7 in the PI slot, that's your business. I've tried many types of tubes in various slots and I have my own standards for likes and dislikes. I've always said go with what floats your boat.


----------



## Inkalen

Thanks for the wellcomes Marty and RR - funny I some way I feel I know you a little after having spend hours and hours reading your posts !

I am looking forward to sharing some of my experiences - all I have to do is figure out how to upload pictures


----------



## demonufo

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tube tone and performance is highly subjective. If you like a 12AT7 in the PI slot, that's your business. I've tried many types of tubes in various slots and I have my own standards for likes and dislikes. I've always said go with what floats your boat.



True. I still prefer an 12AX7 too, but the lower gain tubes can have advantages in rattier sounding amps, like some of the real aggressive '72 marshalls for instance. Evil beasts for sure.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear you are under the weather Mr. Ratt.
> 
> Tube tone and performance is highly subjective. If you like a 12AT7 in the PI slot, that's your business. I've tried many types of tubes in various slots and I have my own standards for likes and dislikes. I've always said go with what floats your boat.



Thanks, but I'm not under it anymore. I'm kinda floating above it now 

I don't advocate the use of narcotics indiscriminately, but they do have their uses. Hell, I may even fire up the amp later on. I've got a problem with a Telefunken I picked up last weekend that I want to puzzle out. I put all those 12AX7s through the DSL before I tested them (stupid, I know). They all sounded fine but when I put the Tele on the Sencore tester the heaters don't light up and I get a zero reading. I'm torn between hoping the tester is bad and hoping the Tele is bad.

I actually liked a 12AT7 in the PI slot on the ultra-gain channel on my DSL better than I thought I would, but it bleeds a little too much presence and sparkle out of the tone. It does sound like a cranked Marshall at a lower volume but it's definitely a trade-off. 

Joe's been running AT7s in V1 of his Monza. Maybe he'll jump in here later with some opinions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a problem with a Telefunken I picked up last weekend that I want to puzzle out. I put all those 12AX7s through the DSL before I tested them (stupid, I know). They all sounded fine but when I put the Tele on the Sencore tester the heaters don't light up and I get a zero reading. I'm torn between hoping the tester is bad and hoping the Tele is bad.



Take some Scotch Brite or steel wool to the pins. I'm not saying that is it, but I have had the same problem in the past and I did the old Scotch Brite trick and it took care of the problem.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll try the scotchbrite. Someone needs to make a tube pin cleaner. Maybe use an automotive battery terminal brush - it should work.

Hey, Marty, have you ever heard of "rejuvenating" a weak tube? From the Sencore manual:

REJUVENATION: If you wish to rejuvenate a small tube, merely increase the filament voltage by setting switch "A" one setting higher for 10-15 seconds. This will super heat the cathode and boil out more emitting material from under the oxide coating. This is only a temporary measure as rejuvenation of a receiving tube will not last very long


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone familiar with a 6189? According to the Duncan list, it's "different performance or rating" from a 12AU7, but all the specs seem the same.

Nevermind - I found some info finally. Military or industrial grade 12AU7. Black, GE style plates, triple mica and extra support rods.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, Marty, have you ever heard of "rejuvenating" a weak tube? From the Sencore manual:
> 
> REJUVENATION: If you wish to rejuvenate a small tube, merely increase the filament voltage by setting switch "A" one setting higher for 10-15 seconds. This will super heat the cathode and boil out more emitting material from under the oxide coating. This is only a temporary measure as rejuvenation of a receiving tube will not last very long



It won't "rejuvenate" for long. Yeah that's an old trick that will give a bad tube a few more months of life. Not a long term fix though. I can do it with my 707. It has a lot of heater settings. Most of the time the tube goes back to being bad within a week.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got an RCA tube price list in with last week's stuff. In 1972 you could buy a:
12AX7 for $3.35. That would equate to around $16 USD in 2010. A 6CA7/EL34 was $5.90 ($31), a 6BQ5/EL84 at $4.25 ($22). The 6L6GC was the highest at $6.65 ($35) and a 6V6GT was $4.90 ($25.75), the 5881 was $4.25 ($22). It's interesting that allowing for inflation, they would be closer than you'd think to current production prices.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It won't "rejuvenate" for long. Yeah that's an old trick that will give a bad tube a few more months of life. Not a long term fix though. I can do it with my 707. It has a lot of heater settings. Most of the time the tube goes back to being bad within a week.



Just perfect for eBay, huh?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, but I'm not under it anymore. I'm kinda floating above it now
> 
> I don't advocate the use of narcotics indiscriminately, but they do have their uses. Hell, I may even fire up the amp later on. I've got a problem with a Telefunken I picked up last weekend that I want to puzzle out. I put all those 12AX7s through the DSL before I tested them (stupid, I know). They all sounded fine but when I put the Tele on the Sencore tester the heaters don't light up and I get a zero reading. I'm torn between hoping the tester is bad and hoping the Tele is bad.
> 
> I actually liked a 12AT7 in the PI slot on the ultra-gain channel on my DSL better than I thought I would, but it bleeds a little too much presence and sparkle out of the tone. It does sound like a cranked Marshall at a lower volume but it's definitely a trade-off.
> 
> Joe's been running AT7s in V1 of his Monza. Maybe he'll jump in here later with some opinions.



Really what I've concluded after my AT7 usage in V1 is it seems to sound best with a mild boost hitting the front end. This factored in I've probably transformed the AT7 in V1 into a 12AX7 when paired with the pedal. I will say its a real nice tone and character together and its dynamic, nice overtones with great roll off ability. 

Now by itself in V1 its a bit limp for my taste especially at volume. I used to do this in the DSL as well paired with a boost and damn it sounded good there too. Marty used to rib me  for using that wimpy tube in V1 but most of the time it was boosted a bit. I think he thought I was running straight in all the time. The 5751's never did it for me cause they came out a bit stiff or sterile for lead stuff IMO. The AT7 felt and sounded better for lead stuff. Was pliable and not stiff or sterile. It will neuter saturation level though. Also take into account I'm a mid gain player mostly. I love "Crunch-Ville"!


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...Tube tone and performance is highly subjective. If you like a 12AT7 in the PI slot, that's your business...


I think I have at least tried a 12AT7 PI in all my amps. In many cases I do prefer a 12AX7 but I have primarily used a 12AT7 in my Plexi for decades - it makes it more like a vintage HiWatt. The JCA20H is another one where I the 12AT7 sounds better to me. One that surprised me was the Ceriatone HRM (Dumble clone), I much prefer a 12AX7 there. Of course my Showman is 12AT7...


----------



## Inkalen

At some point searcing ebay I stumbled upon a pair of CSF tubes with short black plates. With all the talk of Raytheon black plates at the time I figured what the heck they might be good - if they have black plates they cannot be all bad 

Most searches with CSF as a keyword give hits with "cerebro spinal fluid", and although that is probably quite interesting I do not get much wiser with respect to my tubes !

The tubes look very sturdy with double support halo getters and beautifully finished black plates. Anybody here know anything about CSF, when these were made and if they are good tubes or outright a silly buy ?


----------



## Inkalen

Hmmm - just tried to post with some tube pictures attached - wonder why is does not show up ? There was a short message with somethig about the moderator but I did not catch it all !!


----------



## Inkalen

Well as I tried to post an hour ago but not knowing how to attach pictures (Arrggg), I stumbled upon some French CSF black plate tubes on ebay some time ago. Really had no idea of whether they were any good, but with all the positive talk about Raytheon black plates I figured they could not be all bad - if they have black plates they must have something 

Tried to Google these tubes but hits with the keyword CSF usually talks about cerebrospinal fluid and although that of course can be quite interesting I do not get much wiser with respect to my tubes.

As you can see these tubes have beautifully crafted blackplates and double support halo getter.

Anybody here that know anything about these, when they were made, what the S in the name mean and if they are any good ?


----------



## RiverRatt

Most likely a Mazda. It has seams on top so Philips had something to do with it. I've never seen a black plate Mazda before, but the 12AX7S is a Mazda designation for a "Select" military tube. If it is Mazda, it should be excellent. They are some of the most rare and sought-after preamp tubes out there.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Most likely a Mazda. It has seams on top so Philips had something to do with it. I've never seen a black plate Mazda before, but the 12AX7S is a Mazda designation for a "Select" military tube. If it is Mazda, it should be excellent. They are some of the most rare and sought-after preamp tubes out there.


Mazda  Very interesting, did not think of that, although that is perhaps an obvious guess given the made in France description. Only seen silver and regular grey plate Mazda's before. Have some Baldwin labeled Raytheon black plates also, and to be honest those plates look pretty much identical apart from being longer. Ever seen short black plate Raytheons ?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's definitely not a Raytheon. The only short plate Raytheon labeled tubes I've ever seen were MIJ. The double getter supports, exhaust tip shape and seams on top make me think Mazda. The "S" in 12AX7S could also mean it was a special run. It's impossible to say for sure that it's a Mazda without a factory code or finding an identical tube labeled Mazda. The Philips factory code for Mazda is an upper case L, which could be followed by one, two or three more digits. Most Philips codes are etched into the glass toward the bottom of the tube, but I have seen them on the bottom between the pins or painted on right underneath the brand name (Matsushita).


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> It's definitely not a Raytheon. The only short plate Raytheon labeled tubes I've ever seen were MIJ. The double getter supports, exhaust tip shape and seams on top make me think Mazda. The "S" in 12AX7S could also mean it was a special run. It's impossible to say for sure that it's a Mazda without a factory code or finding an identical tube labeled Mazda. The Philips factory code for Mazda is an upper case L, which could be followed by one, two or three more digits. Most Philips codes are etched into the glass toward the bottom of the tube, but I have seen them on the bottom between the pins or painted on right underneath the brand name (Matsushita).


Looked very carefully again using strong light, and there is no etching to be seen anywhere, there is a B molded in the glass between the pins. The printing is a quite strong paint type, not a typical Philips silk screen.
So if it is a Mazda it is in disguise I guess !


----------



## ToneZone100

I managed to get 3x JJ ecc83 for £15 which have been used for a few hours as a start point and also got a Mullard CV4024 for 99p but from research it appears I won't be able to use the Mullard due to it effectively being a military spec ecc81. What do you reckon??
I'm just going to tinker with the 3 main pre tubes and leave the phase inverter in place for the minute.


----------



## RiverRatt

It is an ECC81/12AT7. You can play around with it in different positions and see what you think. It won't hurt anything.


----------



## ToneZone100

RiverRatt said:


> It is an ECC81/12AT7. You can play around with it in different positions and see what you think. It won't hurt anything.



What are the characteristics of an ecc81, lower gain I assume? I thought I read something about the voltages being mismatched thus posing a risk of damaging the amp? So this isn't the case then?


----------



## MM54

Working on a Vox Valvetronix (like a valvestate) for a guy right now, it's got at least one bad solder joint, and the he wants the tube replaced. He said he found one the other day helping his friend move a piano, and hands me a completely NIB Westinghouse 12AX7A, the box had literally never been opened  The flipside is that it tests 75%/80% on my emissions tester, so it may not be much of a step up from the old EH that's in there now. I need to get the damn amp working first though before I'll be able to swap them out.

On a relevant note, he's talking to his friend to see if he has other tubes, and is letting me know if he does so I can take a look for anything good/useful.


----------



## cagamp1

*CSF* was a tube manufacturer, merged with Thomson and bought out by Thales. They still sell CSF tubes distrubuted by Richardson. I don't know if those would be old stock or new. I can't find what a recent one, CSF 12ax7s, looks like though.

Newark sells some Richardson stuff but are ordered, not stocked. There are no pictures which makes me leery.

I've questioned Richardson...waiting for reply.


----------



## cagamp1

ToneZone100 said:


> What are the characteristics of an ecc81, lower gain I assume? I thought I read something about the voltages being mismatched thus posing a risk of damaging the amp? So this isn't the case then?


 
It is similar to the 12ax7 but with lower amplification of 60 and lower plate resistance. Do not use the 12at7 in a cathode follower position because it will overload the cathode.


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> *CSF* was a tube manufacturer, merged with Thomson and bought out by Thales. They still sell CSF tubes distrubuted by Richardson. I don't know if those would be old stock or new. I can't find what a recent one, CSF 12ax7s, looks like though.
> 
> Newark sells some Richardson stuff but are ordered, not stocked. There are no pictures which makes me leery.
> 
> I've questioned Richardson...waiting for reply.



Thompson came up a lot when I was looking for that tube, but it's definitely a Philips product, and Philips didn't own/control any of those companies.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Most likely a Mazda. It has seams on top so Philips had something to do with it. I've never seen a black plate Mazda before, but the 12AX7S is a Mazda designation for a "Select" military tube. If it is Mazda, it should be excellent. They are some of the most rare and sought-after preamp tubes out there.




Are Mazda's any good for the JCM2000 series? (obviously the answer to that is subjective, but... What do you think?)


----------



## RiverRatt

They are too rich for my blood. If you like smooth plate Tele's, you'd probably like Mazda.

Marty, didn't you buy one from China awhile back?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Inkalen said:


> Looked very carefully again using strong light, and there is no etching to be seen anywhere, there is a B molded in the glass between the pins. The printing is a quite strong paint type, not a typical Philips silk screen.
> So if it is a Mazda it is in disguise I guess !



I'm thinking a special run by Mazda as well. This may have been what is called an "STR" tube (Special Tube Request).


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> They are too rich for my blood. If you like smooth plate Tele's, you'd probably like Mazda.
> 
> Marty, didn't you buy one from China awhile back?



I love smooth plate Tele's... But, I did just get a ribbed plate Tele from Marty (today no less) so that I can give it an honest comparison. I hear good things about them, and have been jonesing to try 'em...

By the way... Got yer tubes today too Alan. Thanks again mate!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> They are too rich for my blood. If you like smooth plate Tele's, you'd probably like Mazda.
> 
> Marty, didn't you buy one from China awhile back?



I can't remember where I got my silver plate Mazda's. Overseas seller for sure. I have some gray plates as well. Not your basic $45 tube. More like $70 or so. 

I missed out on some Brazilian MiniWatts recently. I really wanted to score them.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I can't remember where I got my silver plate Mazda's. Overseas seller for sure. I have some gray plates as well. Not your basic $45 tube. More like $70 or so.
> 
> I missed out on some Brazilian MiniWatts recently. I really wanted to score them.



I think it was that Chinese seller we were both looking at. The auction was on eBay forever. He called it a French Mazida.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> By the way... Got yer tubes today too Alan. Thanks again mate!!!



Let me know how you like that Sylvania. I found it to be a little dark and dull in V1, but it should make a great utility tube. I've only tried it in V1 so far, but I'll bet it'll be good in V2. 

I was trying to hook up with the guy I got those from this weekend, but he wasn't answering his phone. I've got some older Russian EL34s I was going to try to trade him for another pair or two of the 6P3S tubes. They really seem to do well in my Tweaker. He also has an older tester he is going to give me. It's an oldie - it doesn't even have a nine-pin socket. 

It is really amazing how many tubes I've picked up since you started this thread. I literally have around 1,000 tubes now that I have absolutely no use for. He gave me a whole box that was labled "Odd Ball Tubes". There seem to be a lot of those.


----------



## BluesRocker

joshuaaewallen said:


> I love smooth plate Tele's... But, I did just get a ribbed plate Tele from Marty (today no less) so that I can give it an honest comparison. I hear good things about them, and have been jonesing to try 'em...
> 
> By the way... Got yer tubes today too Alan. Thanks again mate!!!



Ribbed plate Tele's kick some major Booty! Got one in V1 of my Soldano. I love it.


----------



## mike mike

i am still very happy with my Hammond Mullard 12ax7-RCA Mullard 12ax7a-GE12ax7a setup. thanks for everyone's help. if only nos tubes could instantly heal my wrist and broken pinky...


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Ribbed plate Tele's kick some major Booty! Got one in V1 of my Soldano. I love it.



Hey Cody, I sent you a PM a few days ago. I wanted to get your approval on your order. It's all boxed up and ready to ship on Monday. Just waiting to hear from you.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Cody, I sent you a PM a few days ago. I wanted to get your approval on your order. It's all boxed up and ready to ship on Monday. Just waiting to hear from you.



Doh! My bad.. Been busy.. The setup looks good.. Ill send ya a payment tonight or tomorrow.. Wiring up the SG right now.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Let me know how you like that Sylvania. I found it to be a little dark and dull in V1, but it should make a great utility tube. I've only tried it in V1 so far, but I'll bet it'll be good in V2...



I'm looking forward to it mate. I have no doubt it'll find a nice home in my slowly increasing arsenal. 



RiverRatt said:


> It is really amazing how many tubes I've picked up since you started this thread. _*I literally have around 1,000 tubes now*_ that I have absolutely no use for. He gave me a whole box that was labled "Odd Ball Tubes". There seem to be a lot of those.



Holy tube tone Bat Man!!! I guess Marty was right... You *do* got it bad! Tube-Aholics Anonymous ain't got nothin' on you mate! 



BluesRocker said:


> Ribbed plate Tele's kick some major Booty! Got one in V1 of my Soldano. I love it.



As soon as I get my rig reassembled (I just moved) I'll make sure and do some head to head recorded demos comparing the smooth and ribbed plate Tele's... I have a feeling it'll be darn fun.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Oh... And I also got a MiniWatt from Marty today too. So for new goodies to play around w/, I've got the JHS Sylvania, the 12AT7, the ribbed plate Tele, and a MiniWatt today!!! I can't wait to fire these bad boys up!!!


----------



## cagamp1

RiverRatt said:


> Thompson came up a lot when I was looking for that tube, but it's definitely a Philips product, and Philips didn't own/control any of those companies.


 
I am pretty sure, like all of the other companies, they are affiliated with Philips, Amperex, Marconi, Racal, GE, Eimac. Richardson has crap and tooling all over the globe and makes tubes for various companies/distributors.

The CSF 12ax7's different than Mazda type 12ax7's to me. They have some of their own construction techniques from what I have noticed in pictures.


----------



## MartyStrat54

While I really dig an old all tube radio or phonograph, a lot of odd tubes were used in old TV sets. There is not a huge demand to restore old TV's and I am one who likes my digital TV better. 

Funny thing is, some NIB/NOS TV tubes are like $1.50 on EBAY.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> It is really amazing how many tubes I've picked up since you started this thread. I literally have around 1,000 tubes now that I have absolutely no use for.


Good grief, and here I thought I was badly hit with tube-a-holism 
So how many of them are 12AX7 types ?


----------



## Inkalen

cagamp1 said:


> I am pretty sure, like all of the other companies, they are affiliated with Philips, Amperex, Marconi, Racal, GE, Eimac. Richardson has crap and tooling all over the globe and makes tubes for various companies/distributors.
> 
> The CSF 12ax7's different than Mazda type 12ax7's to me. They have some of their own construction techniques from what I have noticed in pictures.


Thanks a lot guys for trying to solve this CSF tube puzzle, I can see now that it was one of the harder ones - apparently a rather rare tube. I have two "real" Mazdas:































Believe me, the first one was not cheap  Never managed to get more than this one, although tried many times. Seen them with a larger plate hole as this one and also a version with much smaller holes - don't know if there is real world difference!?

The second one has Mazda spelled backwards, seem to remember that Marty once gave an explanation for this but cannot recall the logic. It has the Philips style etching (big L = Mazda !?) and a very fragile silk screen, I accidentally polished a good deal of the screen off while removing old dust before taking these photos. This one, however, look identical to the Philips tubes I have.

So at this point I am inclined to think that the CSF tubes are indeed manufactured by CSF, but of course that may be wrong given all the relabeling that went on - and still does - Harma


----------



## RiverRatt

cagamp1 said:


> I am pretty sure, like all of the other companies, they are affiliated with Philips, Amperex, Marconi, Racal, GE, Eimac. Richardson has crap and tooling all over the globe and makes tubes for various companies/distributors.
> 
> The CSF 12ax7's different than Mazda type 12ax7's to me. They have some of their own construction techniques from what I have noticed in pictures.



There's no way we'll ever know who was in bed with who. Sonotone is another company that I've been trying to find out more about and it's damned near impossible. I'm just saying that Richardson, CSF and Thompson don't appear in any of the Philips literature or code books that I have or in any of the online resources. The top seams and exhaust tip are very close to the style of the French Mazdas, but it could have been made by any of the Philips companies and re-labeled.

That ADZAM tube was made by Thorn AEI (Ediswan) in Great Britain. The I65 is the fifth revision of the Philips ECC83 which came along in the mid to late 1960's. The I7L1 code means the valve was made in the 1st week of December, 1967 by one of the Ediswan factories. They acquired Brimar somewhere around that time. Either way, it's a British-made Mazda. The construction isn't even close to the French ones.


----------



## marvin

Casn anyone tell me anything about these three Polish 12AX7's? They were in a 76' 1987 that's been sitting around here for at least 15 years.
The three on the left are the Polish, one on far right is a Amperex AT7. The construction of the AX7's is very similar to the AT7. (I have several other AT7's that are of the same type construction as the Amperex, a Tele, & RCA). 

Also, what does a miniwatt look like?

TIA


----------



## RiverRatt

Those sure look like RFTs, don't they? Did Polam make a 12AX7 valve? I don't know much about them.


----------



## Inkalen

marvin said:


> Casn anyone tell me anything about these three Polish 12AX7's? They were in a 76' 1987 that's been sitting around here for at least 15 years.
> The three on the left are the Polish, one on far right is a Amperex AT7. The construction of the AX7's is very similar to the AT7. (I have several other AT7's that are of the same type construction as the Amperex, a Tele, & RCA).
> 
> Also, what does a miniwatt look like?
> 
> TIA



Yep they sure do look like RFT's. Suppose given the fact that GDR and Poland shared borders it made sense to share technology, or perhaps relabel tubes from the comrades.
But are you sure you didn't mean to write that the AX7's look different from the AT7's? Hard to see on the photo, but they appear to have different plate structures.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> That ADZAM tube was made by Thorn AEI (Ediswan) in Great Britain. The I65 is the fifth revision of the Philips ECC83 which came along in the mid to late 1960's. The I7L1 code means the valve was made in the 1st week of December, 1967 by one of the Ediswan factories. They acquired Brimar somewhere around that time. Either way, it's a British-made Mazda. The construction isn't even close to the French ones.



Well I'll be dammed - here I thought it was a frog and then its a brit. And it might even be a late Brimar - that would certainly increase the value at ebay  So what was the deal about calling it Adzam ? 
It appears I have never seen a real Philips style Mazda then, thought they also made those, but structurally this is identical to a Dutch made I65 - right ?


----------



## marvin

Inkalen said:


> Yep they sure do look like RFT's. Suppose given the fact that GDR and Poland shared borders it made sense to share technology, or perhaps relabel tubes from the comrades.
> But are you sure you didn't mean to write that the AX7's look different from the AT7's? Hard to see on the photo, but they appear to have different plate structures.



They don't look exactly the same. I meant that they are the only AX7's I have that have smaller offset plates that are not symmetrical, much like the above mentioned AT7's. Also the mica has only 8 points (not that that means anything).


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> There's no way we'll ever know who was in bed with who. Sonotone is another company that I've been trying to find out more about and it's damned near impossible. I'm just saying that Richardson, CSF and Thompson don't appear in any of the Philips literature or code books that I have or in any of the online resources. The top seams and exhaust tip are very close to the style of the French Mazdas, but it could have been made by any of the Philips companies and re-labeled.



Well RR, it would seem you might be right again. See what I just found ECC83 12AX7 MAZDA PLAQUES NOIRE LONG PLATE RIBED on eBay (end time 23-Feb-11 19:46:40 GMT). My French is nothing to write home about, but at least I know that noire is black. Crappy picture, but the little that can be seen could resemble a long plate version of my CSF. Different printing and also a code though !?


----------



## marvin

Here's a closeup of the Polish AX7. The getter is on an angle in this tube, the other tubes have only a slight getter angle, slightly different from one another.


----------



## jazzy cian

The 1st preamp tube (V1) position is the one that effects tone most so maybe get a nice New Old Stock one for there and just good quality ones for the rest


----------



## Inkalen

marvin said:


> Here's a closeup of the Polish AX7. The getter is on an angle in this tube, the other tubes have only a slight getter angle, slightly different from one another.



I have 2 RFT's and they sure look similar to this one structurally - very characteristic plate structure and starlike mica. One has a horizontal getter the other one is on a slight angle. The printing is different otherwise I don't think we can tell them apart !


----------



## marvin

Inkalen said:


> I have 2 RFT's and they sure look similar to this one structurally - very characteristic plate structure and starlike mica. One has a horizontal getter the other one is on a slight angle. The printing is different otherwise I don't think we can tell them apart !



Thanks! I'll have to try them and see what they sound like.


----------



## mike mike

hey marvin. I'm really loving those tubes. thanks!!


----------



## MM54

Well, I'm a convert to Raytheon Blackplates in V2. It seems I've completed the trifecta, Tele smoothplate in V1, Raytheon blackplate in V2, and a lopsided PI


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Well RR, it would seem you might be right again. See what I just found ECC83 12AX7 MAZDA PLAQUES NOIRE LONG PLATE RIBED on eBay (end time 23-Feb-11 19:46:40 GMT). My French is nothing to write home about, but at least I know that noire is black. Crappy picture, but the little that can be seen could resemble a long plate version of my CSF. Different printing and also a code though !?



Good work. I looked and looked and couldn't find anything that similar except for one pic, and it was tiny. It does look a lot like your tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> I have 2 RFT's and they sure look similar to this one structurally - very characteristic plate structure and starlike mica. One has a horizontal getter the other one is on a slight angle. The printing is different otherwise I don't think we can tell them apart !



That's what I'm thinking, too. Those small, offset 12AT7-ish plates AFAIK are an RFT exclusive design. Also, RFTs use really fat bottles - noticeably larger than any other NOS I have. There were a number of companies that incorrectly listed the country of origin on their tubes, especially in the late 1960's and early 1970's. RFT was one of the last big European companies to go under, so they supplied a lot of tubes for other manufacturers.


----------



## Inkalen

MM54 said:


> Well, I'm a convert to Raytheon Blackplates in V2. It seems I've completed the trifecta, Tele smoothplate in V1, Raytheon blackplate in V2, and a lopsided PI



This thread must be a goldmine for people that tear appart old Baldwin organs. 10 Raytheon BP's just went for 212$ at ebay!!! It said tested, but really there was no data, so who knows how good they are?
Thought Marty might buy them, but the buyer only has 40 feedback scores, so figure that is not Marty.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was trying to sort out this nasty sound in my Ampeg combo. Turns out it was V2, one of the last Raytheon black plates I picked up! That's the first bad one I've had. When I tapped it with my finger, it sounded like a palm-muted low E string. That sucks, too. I don't have a lot of Raytheons to begin with.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> I was trying to sort out this nasty sound in my Ampeg combo. Turns out it was V2, one of the last Raytheon black plates I picked up! That's the first bad one I've had. When I tapped it with my finger, it sounded like a palm-muted low E string. That sucks, too. I don't have a lot of Raytheons to begin with.



Wellcome to the club. Never experienced the wonders of a microphonic tube before using a Raytheon in V2 in a 205C. Fortunately I bought 6 from a US Organ ripper, and the rest are ok so far.


----------



## marvin

This thread has been an eye opener , very informative. (not unlike the "speaker thread").

One thing that I have been thinking about is that I use older Parker Fly guitars so my preferences in tubes may be totally different than yours. I also have a Epi Les Paul with SD 59ers in it and with that POS it doesn't seem to make any difference which tubes I use!


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Wellcome to the club. Never experienced the wonders of a microphonic tube before using a Raytheon in V2 in a 205C. Fortunately I bought 6 from a US Organ ripper, and the rest are ok so far.



Oh, I've had several microphonic tubes before, but this one was BAD. I think I paid $5 for the tube so it's no great loss, but still I hate to lose one. I might move it over to V3 on the DSL and see if it behaves OK there. I've used noisy tubes before in that spot and they worked fine. I never throw away a weak or noisy tube - I just can't make myself do it.


----------



## MM54

I can't bring myself to throw ANY tube away, no matter how bad it is. I have a box of dead tubes in a cabinet in my shop. I have the parts from inside some old dead Compactron Beam Tetrode somewhere too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm really glad to see all of the new members over here on the thread. So glad to have you. Please continue to share your experiences with the other members.


----------



## BluesRocker

I went to a friends house today.. They just had bought it and were working on it.. In a room they had an old Hammond Organ.. I was like "oooo". They said ya I paid 5 bucks for it with the auction. I asked if I could crack it open.. They said sure.. I looked.. No tubes.. Bummer.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a Conn organ at a Salvation Army store in Florence, Alabama a couple of years ago. It had an opening in the back, probably for ventilation. It had 8 or 10 columns of tubes with about 10 tubes in each column. They were really dusty and I was standing there with my arm in this thing up past the elbow when a nervous sales clerk popped up with the "Can I help you, sir?" line (I'm kind of a big guy). I tried to explain that the organ might be worth the $800 price tag if it had the right tubes in it. From what I was able to tell, they were all 12AU7s. That was worse than no tubes at all. I thought I had hit the mother lode! I was already trying to figure out how I was going to get the thing home.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I was kinda bummed out that there wasnt any tubes.. But I may buy it off of them so I can take out the Leslie speaker and use it for guitar..


----------



## MM54

I got burned on a Wurlitzer that I bought being told it had 28 12AX7's in it. Got it home (from an hour away) and opened it to find 28 12FQ8 tubes, and 7 12AX7's. It's covered its own price tags (and I've adopted the speakers into my shop's lo-fi) but I'm still slightly pissed about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I ever find a "mother lode" I will be writing about it for a long time. I thought I found a possible lead on an organ. Turned out to be a 1966 model with transistors.


----------



## mike mike

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm really glad to see all of the new members over here on the thread. So glad to have you. Please continue to share your experiences with the other members.


I once tried to straighten the pins on a NOS RCA 12au7, and broke the glass  so the moral of the story is, if it aint broke, don't fix it!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I got burned on a Wurlitzer that I bought being told it had 28 12AX7's in it. Got it home (from an hour away) and opened it to find 28 12FQ8 tubes, and 7 12AX7's. It's covered its own price tags (and I've adopted the speakers into my shop's lo-fi) but I'm still slightly pissed about it.



What did the amp section have in it? Some of those old organ amplifiers make pretty nice guitar amps with a few modifications.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mike mike said:


> I once tried to straighten the pins on a NOS RCA 12au7, and broke the glass  so the moral of the story is, if it aint broke, don't fix it!



That's what is nice about a good tube tester. They have sockets to straighten out 7 and 9 pin tubes. They sell the sockets separately on EBAY. When I sell a tube, I give it a once over with Scotch Brite on the pins and put it in the pin straightener. Then I fire it up and test it one last time.


----------



## RiverRatt

How exactly are you using the Scotchbrite pads? Do you stick the pins through the pad or just scrub the outside? I'm not getting very good results.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> How exactly are you using the Scotchbrite pads? Do you stick the pins through the pad or just scrub the outside? I'm not getting very good results.



I buff the outside of the pins and then I have a small piece rolled up with a rubber band and this goes inside the pins and lightly buffs the inside of the pins.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had been using one of those BVA pin protectors and a little brasso. It worked like a charm until I lost the pin protector. I'd like to find a source for those.

On another note, I found another one of those Sylvania JHS12AX7s in a box of stuff tonight. I think I now own more American tubes than other.

I'm still trying to re-arrange my music corner. It's getting crowded with 5 amps. I bumped my Les Paul last night with my fake leg. Tungsten steel does a job on a maple top. I now have new battle scars on my #1. I need to find a light reddish-brown furniture marker to go over the scratches, then I'm gonna drop-fill them with nail polish. That worked wonders the night an ember got away from me and landed between the 19th and 20th fret on the binding. Maybe I should just think of it as adding "mojo".


----------



## marvin

RiverRatt said:


> I'm still trying to re-arrange my music corner. It's getting crowded with 5 amps. I bumped my Les Paul last night with my fake leg. Tungsten steel does a job on a maple top. I now have new battle scars on my #1. I need to find a light reddish-brown furniture marker to go over the scratches, then I'm gonna drop-fill them with nail polish. That worked wonders the night an ember got away from me and landed between the 19th and 20th fret on the binding. Maybe I should just think of it as adding "mojo".



Hey RR, perhaps you will wanna join this thread now! 

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/24147-road-worn-marshall.html


----------



## RiverRatt

It's just one of those things that happens. Maybe 20 years from now when they are making my signature model Les Paul, some bozo will be scratching his head trying to figure out what to whack the top with to reproduce that strange looking scar.


----------



## Inkalen

Hey RR
You like EI's alot, bet you have never seen E83CC labeled EI's before! At least I think they are EI's, but given my "luck" with guessing the Adzam I better take some precaution
Bought these from a great seller in Germany for a fair price, think they came from some quality HiFi equipment. Any idea why they called it E83CC ?


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like you nailed it. E83CC is one of those goofy numbers that's supposed to designate a premium tube. Most of the ones I've seen have been triple mica, but they don't have to be. The factory code for Ei is an upside-down U with a dot in the middle. I can't quite make it out on yours but that's what it looks like. It would be the first character in the bottom row of numbers.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Just bought 3 Ei valves from Ebay (labelled JSD or sum such thing) for the princley sum of.......£7 , if they all work then i thinks i got myself a nice little deal there. Will post pics when they arrive! It does seemt o be harder to fin these kind of deals these days though, seems there are more people chasing fewer deals.


----------



## Inkalen

Looked again and can see the inverted U, and although the dot is hard to see, it must be an EI. Believe only Telefunken and EI made this plate construction, and it is no Tele.
Goofy number - hmm - so what do you think, is this just a regular EI given a different disignation and higher price tag, or from a selected lot, or perhaps of a higher quality build ?


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just bought 3 Ei valves from Ebay (labelled JSD or sum such thing) for the princley sum of.......£7 , if they all work then i thinks i got myself a nice little deal there. Will post pics when they arrive! It does seemt o be harder to fin these kind of deals these days though, seems there are more people chasing fewer deals.



Way to go !!! I would think the label is RSD actually, they relabeled a lot of european tubes. Don't you just love it when you score like that


----------



## Inkalen

Generally I do not think regular used EI's sell that well on ebay, and particularly not the relabelled ones with lesser known labels. Got a CM1 labelled EI for the even better price of 1$ some time ago - opening bid. Funny thing was that the seller live 10km from me, so I just dropped by and picked it up one day - that's a cheap tube, and at the moment it is doing a great job in V5 in my 205C 
Most sellers with EI's seem to use the BuyItNow option to avoid sales with just one or two bids - what sheit that is !


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Goofy number - hmm - so what do you think, is this just a regular EI given a different disignation and higher price tag, or from a selected lot, or perhaps of a higher quality build ?



Usually it's a more rugged build, low noise, that kind of thing.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Way to go !!! I would think the label is RSD actually, they relabeled a lot of european tubes. Don't you just love it when you score like that



Hey ove gotten some fantastic deals from Evil bay, best one ever was a long plate mullard with square getter, MC1 designation, 1956 date code (or there abouts) it was a cv492, bought it for £10 sold it for £100! 







Next best score was a NOS raytheon black plate, now this one i got for £5 !!!  Still have this one, its running in V2 in my DSL






got to love a good deal.


----------



## Inkalen

Holy mother of pearl - fantastic....

pssstt will you tell us your trick, or is that a magician secret


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a couple of JAN Raytheons and they are both JRPs and both are high-gain monsters - almost too much gain to be usable. I ran one in V1 and V2 at the same time and it would peel the paint off the walls. Forget about clean, though.


----------



## Inkalen

RR you never did let us in on how many are 12ax7 tubes out of your 1000 tubes stash !


----------



## RiverRatt

I dunno. Not many. I think I got 16 in that last batch. Maybe 40 or 50? Most of that 1,000 are useless to me. If I went through them after a HAM guy went through them, you can bet most of the leftovers are oddball TV tubes. Nobody wants 'em. I thought about piling them all up and making a picture of them just for the hell of it. I also thought about taking a bunch out to my dad's and using them for target practice. Shoot a bunch of mercury-filled bottles with pieces of lead. Wouldn't that be eco-friendly?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a lot of tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice to see you Spirit.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice to see you Spirit.



Nice to be here, i still drop by on a regular basis, and have just got the valve hunting bug again. 

Im toying with the idea of picking up a blackstar ht 20 head, as it only needs 2 power valves and 2 pre amp valves so my stash would last a lot longer, going to try one out this weekend, but id keep the marshall, its just to much of a good thing to let go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That Blackstar is a nice amp. (Blackstar's are made by former Marshall design engineers.) If you get it, look at the schematic and see what those pre tubes do. I'm real curious about that.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I dunno. Not many. I think I got 16 in that last batch. Maybe 40 or 50? Most of that 1,000 are useless to me. If I went through them after a HAM guy went through them, you can bet most of the leftovers are oddball TV tubes. Nobody wants 'em. I thought about piling them all up and making a picture of them just for the hell of it. I also thought about taking a bunch out to my dad's and using them for target practice. *Shoot a bunch of mercury-filled bottles with pieces of lead. Wouldn't that be eco-friendly?*



Been there, done that. It's fun  Just make sure they test as dead (target practice/dissection is the only way I ever get rid of tubes )

I also blew away some truck batteries with my friend at my dad's. The lead/acid stuff went down on the ground, and over a year later there's still a big black dead spot


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Nice to be here, i still drop by on a regular basis, and have just got the valve hunting bug again.
> 
> Im toying with the idea of picking up a blackstar ht 20 head, as it only needs 2 power valves and 2 pre amp valves so my stash would last a lot longer, going to try one out this weekend, but id keep the marshall, its just to much of a good thing to let go.



Try an Egnater Tweaker while you are out amp shopping. It's a fun amp for home and small gigs. It takes preamp tubes really well, and it'll cover the same ground as the Blackstar and then some. I was on a small amp quest last fall. I played a bunch and finally ended up with the Tweaker back in December. It can do a wide variety of tones: Marshall, Vox, Fender, from clean to metal. I dig being able to swap out the power tubes for just about any common octal tube. It has two 12AX7 pre's and another 12AX7 effects loop driver.


----------



## yladrd61

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Really what I've concluded after my AT7 usage in V1 is it seems to sound best with a mild boost hitting the front end. This factored in I've probably transformed the AT7 in V1 into a 12AX7 when paired with the pedal. I will say its a real nice tone and character together and its dynamic, nice overtones with great roll off ability.
> 
> Now by itself in V1 its a bit limp for my taste especially at volume. I used to do this in the DSL as well paired with a boost and damn it sounded good there too. Marty used to rib me  for using that wimpy tube in V1 but most of the time it was boosted a bit. I think he thought I was running straight in all the time. The 5751's never did it for me cause they came out a bit stiff or sterile for lead stuff IMO. The AT7 felt and sounded better for lead stuff. Was pliable and not stiff or sterile. It will neuter saturation level though. Also take into account I'm a mid gain player mostly. I love "Crunch-Ville"!



I got a 5751 to put in V1 on my Reissue Bassman, didn't like it put it in the PI it is stayning there  I also have a mint pair of GE 7581A in the power section


----------



## MartyStrat54

GE 7581A / KT66 tubes, v. rare, NOS/NIB, matched qua (06/28/2009)...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those 7581's are rare and oh so nice.


----------



## demonufo

MM54 said:


> Been there, done that. It's fun  Just make sure they test as dead (target practice/dissection is the only way I ever get rid of tubes )



I agree.

And bowling is the most fun way to get rid of CRT televisions and monitors too. Just don't use your favourite bowling ball, and don't tell the EPA.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought about making a tube cannon. Ever seen one of those potato cannons made from PVC? A 12AX7 type tube will fit almost perfectly in a 3/4" PVC pipe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A little coating of Vaseline or shortening (lard) on the tube will make a nice air tight fit. Maybe compressed air to launch the tube? Too violent of an explosion will break the tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check these out. The 5-star box was in that lot from a couple of weeks ago and was empty. I also got an empty Mullard EL84 and GZ34 box. 

Now, what brand comes to mind when you look at the bottom box? Is a Mullard? NO. It contained a very generic IEC tube. I know IEC and Mullard were in bed together, but if you saw this box, you would think you were getting a Mullard tube, although it doesn't mention Mullard or Great Britain anywhere on it. Just goes to show that the CP tubes weren't the only ones to resort to questionable marketing tactics to sell tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I thought about making a tube cannon. Ever seen one of those potato cannons made from PVC? A 12AX7 type tube will fit almost perfectly in a 3/4" PVC pipe.



I just gave my potato gun to a buddy of mine. Was great... He put a hole in his garage door... Suffice to say, his old lady wasn't too thrilled with him!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! You almost had a Five Star GE. As I said, they are rare. You are more likely to find a 5751 instead of a 12AX7. I find these to be the smoothest, most balanced tube that GE made. I like them better than a GE black plate or a GE12AX7WA.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Well the 3 Ei valves arrived today, they are definitley Ei but unusual in that they have a double getter support, anyone come across this before? middle picture shows this best.


----------



## RiverRatt

They look just like my pre-war Ei. I'm down to one now. I sold a few and sent out another couple to friends. It's getting to where I don't know what I've got anymore.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ei's are starting to get a little more respect and this is reflected in their rising costs.


----------



## BluesRocker

I like the EI I have.. Has a nice bite to it..


----------



## MartyStrat54

I noticed your new avatar. You really are a four hole man now. 

"Can you HEAR me?"


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I noticed your new avatar. You really are a four hole man now.
> 
> "Can you HEAR me?"





WHAT?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I got some box in the mail today that was packed with grocery bags and had some little white boxes.. 

Thanks for the t00bs.. They sound amazing.. I havent tried out the Mullard yet.. I put the Tele in the VM.. Mmmm Goodness.


----------



## c588

i wanna start trying some tubes but as my class 5 stock tubes work still...i was wondering whats are a good set of backup tubes i herd all the new stuff kinda sucks


----------



## demonufo

c588 said:


> i wanna star trying some tubes but as my class 5 stock tubes work still...i was wondering whats are a good set of backup tubes



The ones that are in there now are a good set of "backup" tubes.
Or maybe not so good, depending on what's in there.


----------



## c588

lmao this is true forgot bout that all i know is the 12ax7's have a white marshall logo and the power tube has a red logo


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, if your tubes still have the Marshall logo on them, it is time to throw in some NOS


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah the stock tubes should become the backups. Try your luck on EBAY for a 12AX7 and a EL84.


----------



## c588

now i know the go to are teles and maybe some russian stuff...but how are tje american tubes like rca and such...they arent as highly priced so not as sought after?


----------



## RiverRatt

IMO the American tubes lack the midrange bite that most European tubes have. Some of the older USA long black plate tubes from the 1950s and early 1960s work better in a Marshall, especially in the second gain stage. That's why you'll see a lot of us running a European tube in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. G.E. really made some nice sounding tubes that I've used before in V1 with good results. It's really a matter of taste. Marty can provide you with a variety of good quality NOS if you want to try some for yourself.


----------



## demonufo

c588 said:


> now i know the go to are teles and maybe some russian stuff...but how are tje american tubes like rca and such...they arent as highly priced so not as sought after?



Personally I wouldn't put Telefunken ECC83's in my top five even (although I would in my top six. ). But they most certainly are VERY reliable, VERY rugged, and do sound VERY good. But there are a few with a little more character that I favour.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know what you mean. Telefunkens are the darlings of the hi-fi crowd mainly because they offer such a smooth even response across the audio spectrum. I like them in a guitar amp when playing clean or slightly overdriven chimey chords and leads, but their tone is not for everyone. Ei tubes are a good compromise.


----------



## c588

i was thinking about just trying out some tungsols repos or mullard for my first venture into tube land lol just cuz they dont break the band with my 8 dollar an hour job lol


----------



## RiverRatt

If you buy from sellers with good feedback (a return policy is nice, too) you can score some nice old tubes for about the same price as the current production stuff. Matsushita and Ei are both great values right now.


----------



## mike mike

well guys, i put a golden dragon 12ax7a in V1 in my peavey 6505+ last week and played it a lot today, and i am pleasantly surprised. it is a very rich full sounding tube! and quiet! no wonder they are expensive!


----------



## RiverRatt

I compared an RCA 1972 price list to today's prices. Allowing for inflation, the RCA would cost around $15 now. Most of my NOS have been bought at significantly less than that. I don't care what kind of fancy labels the put on them, the construction techniques cannot be the same as the old tubes. If you are going to be using a tube amp for the foreseeable future, do yourself a favor and buy some of the old ones. I mean, really do you think that 40 years from now people are going to be gushing over Golden Dragons? The fact that old tubes are still around 60 years later and performing better than the new stuff should tell you something about current production. I sincerely wish there were a CP tube that I could like and use, but they just don't exist. Neither will they be around for 50 years. Hell, most of them can't make it a year or two in modern amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like this black screen. The white screen was a drag and wouldn't let me post.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey guys,
what would a good cp relacement be for the stock ecc83, and 12ax7s?
Edit, and also a good place to buy from?


----------



## c588

i also had a question are 6N2P-EV the same size and dimensions as a 12ax7 i found some surplus russian military tubes with that on the tube


----------



## BluesRocker

If I am not mistaken you have to mod the amp to take those tubes....Marty, Alan or Joe can give you the full story.. But I am about 90% sure you have to change something in the circuit for the 6N2P's


----------



## c588

hmm lol there goes that idea lol thanks bud


----------



## johnfv

66 galaxie said:


> Hey guys,
> what would a good cp relacement be for the stock ecc83, and 12ax7s?
> Edit, and also a good place to buy from?


OK, I"ll stick my neck out and admit that there are CP tubes that I'm happy with. 
thetubestore.com - Audio vacuum tubes for your amplifier. has been good for me, an informative site with some comparison notes on various tubes. A lot will depend on the amp and what sort of tone you want. For example I go for "classic" tones, what sounds crunchy or bright to me might be perfect for more metal type tones. That said, I probably like the sound of the Tungsol the best. The JJ ECC83 also works well for me in a number of situations (I know a some guys hate 'em but for me the "flat" tone can give a nice classic midrange bite without being too harsh). For higher gain stuff the EH tubes can be good (full but also a bit bright); even some of the Chinese tubes can sound pretty good but can also sound harsh in some situations. Hope that helps...


----------



## GuiltySparc

so i picked up a tung sol reissue to try out in V2 and noticed that it glows quite a bit less dim than the other preamps tubes i have (RFT and JJs). Is that normal with Tung Sols or should i return in? The amp sounds fine, so i'm just sorta curious.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

GuiltySparc said:


> so i picked up a tung sol reissue to try out in V2 and noticed that it glows quite a bit less dim than the other preamps tubes i have (RFT and JJs). Is that normal with Tung Sols or should i return in? The amp sounds fine, so i'm just sorta curious.



Not all tubes light up as brightly as others. so... Unless it has given you some other cause for alarm... I really wouldn't worry if it seems a tad dimmer than the others.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like this black screen. The white screen was a drag and wouldn't let me post.



Yeah... I had that problem for about half a day too! It was irritating. Turned out that for some reason The Marshall Forum is on the list of sites that Windows 7 says contain "suspicious malware"... I just had to tweak my pc security settings. What happened with you?


----------



## GuiltySparc

joshuaaewallen said:


> Not all tubes light up as brightly as others. so... Unless it has given you some other cause for alarm... I really wouldn't worry if it seems a tad dimmer than the others.



Thanks.


----------



## c588

im thinking about 2 12ax7 tung sols and a mullard el84 for the power all three repos


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd recommend one Tung-Sol and one Chinese preamp tube just to give yourself more options. V2 isn't going to matter as much as V1, so you could swap them around and see which tone you like better. I prefer the Chinese tube over the Tung-Sol but you might like the TS better. IMO the Chinese tube has a little more bite but some people don't like that.


----------



## c588

i was leaning tungsol and a jj as well


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I was just saying you could get two different ones instead of two of the same. A lot of people here like JJ's.


----------



## johnfv

c588 said:


> i was leaning tungsol and a jj as well





RiverRatt said:


> ...V2 isn't going to matter as much as V1...IMO the Chinese tube has a little more bite but some people don't like that.


I suggest 3 tubes will make a good CP sampler: JJ, Tungsol and Shuguang. Definitely focus on V1 for your initial "auditions". What you like will depend on what tones you are going for, Alan is right about the bite of the Chinese tubes and they usually have a lot of gain - can be very good. The EH tube is another good option...


----------



## c588

best thing about a class 5 is that i dont have to bias them so its def a nice way to try lots of diff tubes but ill prob just try the mullard power tube and experiment with the 3 tubes we all suggested after my next paycheck lol...so whats the story on TAD tubes i saw they are chinese as well


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't usually recommend Sovtek anything, but the EL84M is a Russian military tube that will give you a little more clean headroom. It might be something to look at down the road. You can also pick up Saratov/Reflektor 6P14P NOS Russian military tubes (essentially the same as the EL84M) really cheap on eBay. They can easily be had for less than CP tubes and are rated for 10,000 hours. The ones from the 1960's - 1970's are the ones to look for. I really like them a lot. I got some from Marty awhile back but I think he may be out of them now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The TAD 7025 is probably the best high gain Shuguang.


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yeah... I had that problem for about half a day too! It was irritating. Turned out that for some reason The Marshall Forum is on the list of sites that Windows 7 says contain "suspicious malware"... I just had to tweak my pc security settings. What happened with you?



I use Google Chrome and it had the Marshall site having Malware as well. They even said they notified Marshall about it. I was surprised when it gave the warning say'n the forum had it. I always use GC so it was a new development.


----------



## GuiltySparc

Another quick vid...this time with the tung sol in it. This vid has the RFT in V1, Tung Sol in V2, and JJs in V3 and 4. I'm liking it quite a bit. I absolutely love the tone i get with the neck pup.

https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx...ODA1MTdmNzNjYWNh&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

The vid i posted a couple weeks ago was same amp/guitar/sloppy playing/etc with the RFT in V1 and JJs in V2, 3, and 4. The power section is all JJ E34Ls.

(first vid)
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bx...NjA2NTY0NWZmZmQx&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

Also, i'm not sure how long it takes google to process the vids, so hopefully this link works right away!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I am all out of the 1967 Russian EL84's. I sold a bunch of them and I got mine direct from Russia.


----------



## SCopeland24

Can someone suggest a preamp set for a 6100LM? They will be paired with SED Wing =C= 6L6 power tubes. I'd like to keep the raw tone of channel three, try to get as close as possible to a jcm800 on channel two and improve the clean channel immensly.


----------



## RiverRatt

Another one bites the dust...






Have I ever mentioned that I hate those damned spring-loaded tube shields?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's some special gold pin Sylvania 5751. Double post getter, triple mica top and bottom and gold pins. I've never seen these. Photos courtesy of EBAY.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to send you a couple of military tubes for your input on them. I have several. Damn shame about that RFT. You always told me that the bases would crack easily, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to send you a couple of military tubes for your input on them. I have several. Damn shame about that RFT. You always told me that the bases would crack easily, too.



Yeah Tube Monger warns of this when you buy the RFT 12AX7's and it almost deterred me from getting one of many in the beginning. I have to say I have pushed/pulled my stock a few times and never cracked a base. I must have "loose" amps if you know what I mean...


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, that was one of your TubeMonger tubes that cracked, so I guess they know what they are talking about. I had the amp chassis out putting a new switch in it and when I put it back together and fired it up I got a lot of hissing and popping for about a minute and I thought it must be a bad tube. It was in my Vintage Club amp, and they use those tube shields with a heavy spring that's almost as big as the shield itself. I've broken the tip off of a couple of tubes with those damned things but this is the first time I've had one with a cracked base.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Well, that was one of your TubeMonger tubes that cracked, so I guess they know what they are talking about. I had the amp chassis out putting a new switch in it and when I put it back together and fired it up I got a lot of hissing and popping for about a minute and I thought it must be a bad tube. It was in my Vintage Club amp, and they use those tube shields with a heavy spring that's almost as big as the shield itself. I've broken the tip off of a couple of tubes with those damned things but this is the first time I've had one with a cracked base.



You think the tube shield stressed it and caused it or was it cracked already?


----------



## demonufo

Wish I could find some of these at regular prices.
2XNOS 5751=12AX7=ECC83 Tubes, Mazda Silver Anode 3 Mica on eBay (end time 30-Mar-11 12:40:16 BST)


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever mentioned that I hate those damned spring-loaded tube shields?



Too bad, but at least it was just a RFT - imagine if that had been a long plate Mullard or even a silver plate Mazda 

Quite easy to find cheap used RFTs - now you know you need to buy extra of them !


----------



## longfxukxnhair

I just got my Maximus pack today from Marty. Talk about fast service! 

Thanks


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just bought 3 Ei valves from Ebay (labelled JSD or sum such thing) for the princley sum of.......£7 , if they all work then i thinks i got myself a nice little deal there. Will post pics when they arrive! It does seemt o be harder to fin these kind of deals these days though, seems there are more people chasing fewer deals.



Hey Spirit
After you got those cheap EI's I decided to hunt for some more. Found an auction with some Siemens relabelled EI's NOS, NIB. Decided my maximal bid would be in the 20-25 EUR range. Could not believe it when I saw the auction ended at 101 EUR 

Perhaps somebody thought these were Telefunken's - but they are in for a surprise. Anyway, sure puts your deal in perspective !


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You think the tube shield stressed it and caused it or was it cracked already?



I think I probably moved the shield a little while I was working on the chassis and the combination of downward and sideways force cracked it. It was good before I started working on the amp. I'm tellin' ya, those springs in there are crazy-strong. I've got a few gold ones that have a normal spring in them and I think I'm going to use those instead. Hell, it doesn't take that much force to hold a horizontal tube in place.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> I think I probably moved the shield a little while I was working on the chassis and the combination of downward and sideways force cracked it. It was good before I started working on the amp. I'm tellin' ya, those springs in there are crazy-strong. I've got a few gold ones that have a normal spring in them and I think I'm going to use those instead. Hell, it doesn't take that much force to hold a horizontal tube in place.



Never really understood what use the spring does - all the other tubes do not have springs and mine have never dropped out of the sockets even though they are upside down !
Can't you just pull the spring out completely ?


----------



## Inkalen

Marty, RR or others

Hitachi, did they make 12AX7's on a licence from GE? The plate structure on some I have seen appear very similar to a short plate GE.


----------



## SCopeland24

Can someone suggest a good set of tubes for a Marshall 6100LM head retubing. I have the one that comes equiped with 6L6s.


----------



## Inkalen

SCopeland24 said:


> Can someone suggest a good set of tubes for a Marshall 6100LM head retubing. I have the one that comes equiped with 6L6s.



Are you looking for current production tubes or old tubes ? Pre-amp or Power-amp tubes and what price range ?


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Hey Spirit
> After you got those cheap EI's I decided to hunt for some more. Found an auction with some Siemens relabelled EI's NOS, NIB. Decided my maximal bid would be in the 20-25 EUR range. Could not believe it when I saw the auction ended at 101 EUR
> 
> Perhaps somebody thought these were Telefunken's - but they are in for a surprise. Anyway, sure puts your deal in perspective !



You've got to look every day and do very broad searches like "12AX7" and sort through all the results. Look for anything out of the ordinary, such as misspelled brand names, odd brands, and people who obviously know nothing about what they are selling. Check the pictures for unique identifiers such as 45° getters, top seams, black plates, long plates, tip shape, whatever. Occasionally you'll get lucky.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> You've got to look every day and do very broad searches like "12AX7" and sort through all the results. Look for anything out of the ordinary, such as misspelled brand names, odd brands, and people who obviously know nothing about what they are selling. Check the pictures for unique identifiers such as 45° getters, top seams, black plates, long plates, tip shape, whatever. Occasionally you'll get lucky.



Absolutely right, if you really want the great deals you have to spend many hours a week looking through all the auctions - a very time consuming hobby.

The "funny" thing about this auction was that the seller had more than 1000 feedbacks mostly from tube buyers, and he definitely knew what he was talking about - he surely left out the origin on purpose! As such nothing wrong about that, but ...

I fell for a similar "half scam" in one of my first auctions - hoped I had scored two cheap Tele's from a dump seller, but in fact I was the dump-ass in that deal


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I think I probably moved the shield a little while I was working on the chassis and the combination of downward and sideways force cracked it. It was good before I started working on the amp. I'm tellin' ya, those springs in there are crazy-strong. I've got a few gold ones that have a normal spring in them and I think I'm going to use those instead. Hell, it doesn't take that much force to hold a horizontal tube in place.



Yeah use those gold ones. The springs don't need to be that strong. Damn tube killers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

SCopeland24 said:


> Can someone suggest a good set of tubes for a Marshall 6100LM head retubing. I have the one that comes equiped with 6L6s.



V1-TAD 7025S Low Noise for Clean Channel
V2-Tung-Sol (V2A Lead/V2B Crunch)
V3-Mullard RI High Gain (may like it better in V5. Personal taste.)
V4-Tung-Sol
V5-Mullard RI (Again, try this is V3 or V5)
V6-Mullard RI High Gain
V7-EH


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Another one bites the dust...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have I ever mentioned that I hate those damned spring-loaded tube shields?



MILK...it does a body good.

Man, the heavy getter flash turns a nice shade of white.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Inkalen said:


> Marty, RR or others
> 
> Hitachi, did they make 12AX7's on a licence from GE? The plate structure on some I have seen appear very similar to a short plate GE.



Not that I knew of. However, the Japanese were not shy when it came to copying something they liked.


----------



## RiverRatt

Most all of the MIJ tubes I've seen use a very generic box plate design like G.E., RCA and similar. I'm more familiar with Toshiba tubes. They have a large hole between the two plates on either side. I've got a couple of those and they sound a lot like a USA tube. I think Hitachi made a lot of the tubes for Curtis Mathes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are a couple of examples:

Toshiba:





Hitachi:





Note the seams on the Hitachi. Don't confuse these with Matsushitas. The seam on these goes all the way around the tube, not just the top.


----------



## solarburn

Alan have you tried a Hitachi yet? I thought about get'n one to see but I never did. I don't see anybody talking about them much or at least actually sampling one...


----------



## RiverRatt

Pretty vanilla sounding. Like I said, they are close to USA tubes in design and performance. I'd use one in V3 or V4 of the DSL but they ain't gonna win any shootouts.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Pretty vanilla sounding. Like I said, they are close to USA tubes in design and performance. I'd use one in V3 or V4 of the DSL but they ain't gonna win any shootouts.



Saves me the money then.


----------



## solarburn

Alan did you get to try a BEL yet?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope. I've had to put my tube spending on hold for awhile. I think we're about to have a shake-up at work and I don't know how it's going to play out. I think Marty had some but I don't remember a tone check on 'em. I did score a good Siemens und Halske awhile back. It reminds me a lot of my Tele ribbed plates.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope. I've had to put my tube spending on hold for awhile. I think we're about to have a shake-up at work and I don't know how it's going to play out. I think Marty had some but I don't remember a tone check on 'em. I did score a good Siemens und Halske awhile back. It reminds me a lot of my Tele ribbed plates.



I've got one that is of 80's stock. I'll send it to you to sample. I actually liked it better in my Monza than the DSL but it has its own character for sure. Give you sumpt'n different to try...


----------



## solarburn

Oh...and good luck with the work thing. Hope it doesn't turn into a fiasco...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've got one that is of 80's stock. I'll send it to you to sample. I actually liked it better in my Monza than the DSL but it has its own character for sure. Give you sumpt'n different to try...



Thanks, man. I was just on the phone with an old friend of mine from back in the day. I had mentioned your DSL to him back when you were having all the problems. He said to take the tube board out and use a solder sucker on all the tube socket pins and re-solder them. He had a TSL601 that was doing the same thing and that was the problem. He said that re-flowing the joints didn't fix it but removing the old solder worked. I played through that combo before I bought my DSL and it was pretty nice.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, man. I was just on the phone with an old friend of mine from back in the day. I had mentioned your DSL to him back when you were having all the problems. He said to take the tube board out and use a solder sucker on all the tube socket pins and re-solder them. He had a TSL601 that was doing the same thing and that was the problem. He said that re-flowing the joints didn't fix it but removing the old solder worked. I played through that combo before I bought my DSL and it was pretty nice.



Thanks for the info. I was thinking it might be the tube sockets and I banged them too much roll'n tubes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd do it to all of the tube sockets, preamp and power. You have "fingered" that amp to death.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd do it to all of the tube sockets, preamp and power. You have "fingered" that amp to death.


----------



## Inkalen

RR I did win that Shita - 7$ which is ok I think.
Only bad thing is the shipping that will be more than the tube...


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> RR I did win that Shita - 7$ which is ok I think.
> Only bad thing is the shipping that will be more than the tube...



Good deal! I'll bet you like it.


----------



## Inkalen

Hope so
Don't see many of them, are they rare ? Would be great to score 3-4 of them at this price in one go! Like to have small collections of tubes


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Hope so
> Don't see many of them, are they rare ? Would be great to score 3-4 of them at this price in one go! Like to have small collections of tubes



Like these 






Think i paid £30 for the 4, which is a pretty ggod, currently running 3 of these in my DSL and they sound great.


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Like these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think i paid £30 for the 4, which is a pretty ggod, currently running 3 of these in my DSL and they sound great.



Wow those surely do look great  Are you using one in V1 ?

Not the same as the one I bought though, that one has longer plates and I believe a square getter although that is hard to see in the picture.

Did you see my post about the Siemens EI pair I was aiming for ...


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Like these
> 
> Think i paid £30 for the 4, which is a pretty ggod, currently running 3 of these in my DSL and they sound great.



No, like this. Note the long plates and the D getter.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> No, like this. Note the long plates and the D getter.
> 
> Ah, yes I see, i will have to keep an eye out for one of these then, those 4 i posted i didnt even want, i just put a low ball bid in and to my uuter suprise i got them.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem with those 45° getter 'shitas, Spirit. I have several and I think they are on-par with the Mullard I63 tubes from the mid-1960's. However, I'd put my D getters up against ANY Mullard.


----------



## Inkalen

Looking for a new RFT RR?

Here is an option for a couple and a bit of extras to increase the head count of your already massive collection 

Lot of 44 - 12AX7(A) / 7025 / ECC83 - New and Used on eBay (end time 05-Mar-11 22:24:13 GMT)


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, but I'll pass. There hasn't been a lot of spare change around lately. Check out this row of lovely ladies.

http://r.ebay.com/EB4HfM


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, but I'll pass. There hasn't been a lot of spare change around lately. Check out this row of lovely ladies.
> 
> FOR SALE: 8 x ECC83 12AX7 Different brands - eBay (item 360347920387 end time Mar-06-11 03:54:18 PST)



Well, did not really think you would want all those china tubes - you already have an RFT that's ready for target practice  Silly auction, who would bid much for that ?

cannot see the auction you are pointing to !?


----------



## RiverRatt

Try it again. I fixed the link.


----------



## MartyStrat54

$33 for shipping? Good grief!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Whenever an EBAY listing won't post, all you have to do is copy and paste the item number (out of the URL).


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Try it again. I fixed the link.



Yep, saw them - quite nice, and suppose they come in a gold plated box with that shipping charge 

One of your favorites
(1) Sonotone 12AX7 Clear Top 2 X Tested Maxi-Preamp - eBay (item 120691160659 end time Mar-06-11 17:47:24 PST)


----------



## Inkalen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Whenever an EBAY listing won't post, all you have to do is copy and paste the item number (out of the URL).



Arrggh - how silly of me, should have remembered that - thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have some Sonotone side getters and I ain't that impressed. I don't recommend them for use in a combo, especially a small VOX.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought they sounded pretty good in V1 in the DSL. I'll second the combo thing, though. They are way too noisy in a combo. I've got 3 or 4 and I think that'll do me for awhile.


----------



## solarburn

I just got done roll'n again in the Monza. I rolled the following in V1. I have a Jan Philips 12AX7WA in the PI:

1.The Mullard AT7 CV 4024
2.Shita slant AX7
3.RFT AX7
4.Tung Sol 803-S AX7

The Mullard AT7 seems to give the best combination of mids and dynamics for soloing. The only fault is for rhythm playing. It rolls off quickly and chords quiet down and flatten out quickly. Solo notes though still come out front. Kind of strange but I noticed it when recording those single notes pop right out still. So the rhythm may get buried if rolling off too much but the single notes pop right out.

All the 12AX7's are thicker and meaner and sound good too but they seem to add more to the low end mids and I want more of the upper mids coming through. 

Man going from the AT7 to the Shita Slant(with gold legs)is quite a jump in juice. That Shita is loud and proud. Strong that one is and it doesn't add as much to the bottom as the others I listed. It shouldn't cause it is more of a mid frequency tube. Still though not the mids I get with the AT7. I liked it though. It saturated the most at the same setting across the board. Nice clear saturation with the lows and highs well balanced.

The RFT added to the Monza's low end balls. In a good way. Rhythm tone was nice and meaty. Solo tone was good. The Tung Sol 803-S also sounded meaty like the RFT with solo notes sounding warmer, rounder with the highs being a bit more restrained than I wanted. Its a smoother tube but not flat like a JJ ECC83S. I bet in a bright amp it would be right at home in the V1 slot.

All the tubes were good in V1. I would be happy using any of them. I'm splitting hairs here. Will keep using my Dano, AT7 C4024/JP12AX7WA combination for now. All this reminds me though that my arsenal of tubes is of good quality and I get good tone IMO using them. Makes me smile...now I've banged one of my amps again enuff for awhile.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I'm giving up on these. Thought I'd throw it out here and see if one of you guys wants 'em, or maybe I've been bidding against one of you already 

These are the long-plate D getter Matsushitas we've been talking about.

Pair of Realistic Matsushita Japan 12AX7 Preamp Tubes - eBay (item 190508492292 end time Mar-10-11 16:20:03 PST)


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I'm giving up on these. Thought I'd throw it out here and see if one of you guys wants 'em, or maybe I've been bidding against one of you already
> 
> These are the long-plate D getter Matsushitas we've been talking about.
> 
> Pair of Realistic Matsushita Japan 12AX7 Preamp Tubes - eBay (item 190508492292 end time Mar-10-11 16:20:03 PST)



2 of them. Damn! Sorry you can't get em'. I'm not bidding but it would be nice to have 2 more eh' Alan...


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I'm giving up on these. Thought I'd throw it out here and see if one of you guys wants 'em, or maybe I've been bidding against one of you already
> 
> These are the long-plate D getter Matsushitas we've been talking about.
> 
> Pair of Realistic Matsushita Japan 12AX7 Preamp Tubes - eBay (item 190508492292 end time Mar-10-11 16:20:03 PST)



Not me, I didn't even see this bloody auction, and that's not for lack of trying - aaarrggghh 
When I search for 12ax7 Matsushita this auction does not show up. Don't know if it is because of the restricted shipping options (only US) or whether ebay does not always give all results in worldwide searches ???


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 2 of them. Damn! Sorry you can't get em'. I'm not bidding but it would be nice to have 2 more eh' Alan...



I've got 3 of 'em already, but I'd really like to have a few more. There's just something about the tone of these that I really like. I know you don't like them in the Monza as much, but they really do well in my DSL and Tweaker. I just don't have the resources to slug it out on eBay right now.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got 3 of 'em already, but I'd really like to have a few more. There's just something about the tone of these that I really like. I know you don't like them in the Monza as much, but they really do well in my DSL and Tweaker. I just don't have the resources to slug it out on eBay right now.



It really smokes in the Marshall though. What a match!


----------



## demonufo

Haven't got ANY matsu's in my little stash. 

Seller won't ship to the UK though, so that's no good to me either.


----------



## GIBSON67

Does anyone know about these tubes, to me they look like Mullards?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

GIBSON67 said:


> Does anyone know about these tubes, to me they look like Mullards?



They are Ei smoothplates.


----------



## GIBSON67

Excellent! So these are Mullards, are they the good ones?

I just got a pair off EBAY for $23 shipped.


----------



## MartyStrat54

GIBSON67 said:


> Excellent! So these are Mullards, are they the good ones?
> 
> I just got a pair off EBAY for $23 shipped.



No, they are not Mullards, they are Ei's.

The only way to know how good they are is to test them on a good reliable tester.


----------



## GIBSON67

Ahh, are EI's a good brand?


----------



## demonufo

GIBSON67 said:


> Ahh, are EI's a good brand?



Yes and no. A GOOD one is a good tube indeed, but the EI 12AX7's are prone to microphony, and you often have to sort through a few to find a good one. And even then they might go microphonic quickly. Longplates are often prone to microphony, but these even more so.
I always had very good luck with the Mesa branded EI's in the mid-late 90's though. Never a bad one.

In short, the build quality can be questionable, but when working they are a pretty good tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't use Ei's in combo amps so I can't really speak for the tendency toward microphonics. I've never had one in my DSL that was noisy. The ones that came stock in my DSL50 were nice tubes. They were probably from the same era as the Mesa ones. My DSL was made in 2000.


----------



## RiverRatt

GIBSON67 said:


> Ahh, are EI's a good brand?



BTW, welcome aboard GIBSON67! You're practically in the Bartlett GC's back yard. Ever deal with Buddy down that way?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey tube chasers, here's a deal for you.

Buy my old organ

I don't know if I'd trust anyone who can't spell the name of the town they're from.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It still works and he will want more than $100 for it. Personally, I don't like tearing up a working organ for some tubes. Plus, as you said, it may not be all 12AX7's. It could be 12AU7's or some other odd ball tubes.


----------



## GIBSON67

OK, thanks for the info. These are coming from Greece, so I won't get them for 2 weeks, more than likely. I do have a tester but putting them in my Marshall will be the final test.
There were listed a NOS, so we'll see. Currently, I use new Tung Sols, but I have experimenting with others I have on hand, lately. Including: Blackplate 5751, Tungsram, Fender 7025, Magnavox, Sylvania, Westinghouse, Silver Dragons and now EI smoothplates.

Riverrat, thanks for the welcome. GC is only 5 mins away from my house but I really don't get over there too often. My sons go more than I do. I am an EBAY junkie and I tend to only buy used gear. I have had a few repairs done by GC, and I have had good luck with them. 

I am going to read this whole thread to see what I can find out, but I am sure I won't stop buying until I have a good Mullard for V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

That Tungsram will make a good V1 tube. What's your amp?


----------



## solarburn

Would'nt a slant Shita fit the bill too...? I mean he wants a Mullard might as well get a better sounding one...Doh! IMO hehe.


----------



## GIBSON67

I have a JCM800 1987 with EL34s. 

On the Tungsram, I did like it alot but I noticed a crackling sound so I think it is going bad. It went away when I switched it out.

Yesterday, I was really loving that 5751 with my Strat. But on low bass input i had the volume up to 5, which normally would be loud as hell! Using my Ratt, I was getting great crunch - almost in metal territory.


----------



## RiverRatt

Take a Scotchbrite pad and clean the pins on the Tungsram. Sometimes they are noisy because they aren't making good contact. You might even spray some contact cleaner on the pins and work it in and out of the socket a few times to make sure the socket is clean. If the tube otherwise sounds fine, sometimes that will fix it.


----------



## GIBSON67

Cool, I will try that. That would be nice if it was not bad. I have had that tube for some time, and I didn't know they were that good until I read this thread.

RiverRat, where are you located?


----------



## RiverRatt

Over near Pickwick lake on the TN river.


----------



## GIBSON67

I love fishing at Pickwick, thanks for all the info.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem. Here's a shot from a few years back - my oldest with his first striper. I'll bet they are tearing them up right now but I haven't been able to find the time to get down there and wet a hook.


----------



## GIBSON67

Great shot! We have fished over by the dam, right there, many times.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got the BEL today Joe. Thanks! I'll give it a try this evening.


----------



## solarburn

Cool. Let me know what ya think of course. Look'n forward to it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I couldn't wait 

Man, that tube has the mids thing happenin'! I was very surprised and pleased with the tone. Very smooth and powerful. I'm looking forward to really pushing it hard when everyone's out of the house. I got the master up to 4 on the clean channel and it really hits you in the balls. Great punch and low mids. I compared it to a 45° Shita and a ribbed Tele and I liked the BEL better than both! 

The Tweaker has been my go-to amp since Christmas. It's good to be reminded of the power of Marshall every now and then.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... I compared it to a 45° Shita and a ribbed Tele and I liked the BEL better than both!



Better than a Shita?!?!? Well... I never thought I'd here such words from you mate!


----------



## RiverRatt

Not the infamous D getters, just the run-of-the-mill slant getters. It is a good sounding tube, though. Another fine Philips offering, right in line with the Mullards and Shitas.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Whew! That's a relief... For a moment there my entire universe was shaken!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I couldn't wait
> 
> Man, that tube has the mids thing happenin'! I was very surprised and pleased with the tone. Very smooth and powerful. I'm looking forward to really pushing it hard when everyone's out of the house. I got the master up to 4 on the clean channel and it really hits you in the balls. Great punch and low mids. I compared it to a 45° Shita and a ribbed Tele and I liked the BEL better than both!
> 
> The Tweaker has been my go-to amp since Christmas. It's good to be reminded of the power of Marshall every now and then.



Heck yeah man! It emphasizes the low mids on the Monza in a real ballzy way. Bottom is tight but not stiff and the highs are restrained hence the smoothness. Those low mids are all meat. Just a naughty V1.

Remember this is 80's stock so if you can't find and older stock BEL you don't have too. 80's BEL is good stuff or at least that one is.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is it for sale?


----------



## Inkalen

Not seen many BELs on ebay lately - probably difficult to get much for them despite sweet fairy tales about Mullard equipment etc.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have not seen one iota of proof that Mullard supplied tooling to any of the other Philips companies. I've got some long plate Matsushitas that were made back in the 1950's and I doubt that Mullard was sending equipment to anyone else when they were in full production. You nailed it - fairy tales.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Is it for sale?



Let me think about it...


----------



## GIBSON67

Thanks RiverRat for the scotchbrite tip, it seems to have gotten rid of the crakling sound in my Tungsram. Of course, I didn't have scotchbrite so I just worked it in and out a few times and that seemed to work. 

Thanks, again.


----------



## solarburn

Spray'n some contact cleaner on the legs/pins and then pop'n the tubes in and out about 3 times works just fine usually. i haven't had to use anything else yet and I've had some noisy(cracklin)preamp tubes be fine afterwards.


----------



## RiverRatt

GIBSON67 said:


> Thanks RiverRat for the scotchbrite tip, it seems to have gotten rid of the crakling sound in my Tungsram. Of course, I didn't have scotchbrite so I just worked it in and out a few times and that seemed to work.
> 
> Thanks, again.



Glad to help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

According to this, Westinghouse manufactured their own tubes.

EIA codes you might find on a tube
* 111 = Amperex
* 158 = DuMont
* 188 = GE / KEN-RAD 188-4, 188-5(KEN-RAD factory), 188-20(NY)
* 210 = CBS Hytron
* 247 = National Union
* 274 = RCA
* 280 = Raytheon
* 312 = Sylvania
* 322 = Tung-Sol (USA)
* 323 = United Electronics
* 336 = Western Electric
* 337 = Westinghouse
* 722 = Sylvania-manufactured for OEM equipment makers (Allen Organâ€¦)
* 1022 = Fisher branded Mullard/Telefunken/Amperex
* 1109 = Raytheon (Japan)
* U.S.A.3 (found on the glass envelope) = Tung-Sol
* 8I = Toshiba (Tokyo Shibaura Electric)


----------



## demonufo

MartyStrat54 said:


> According to this, Westinghouse manufactured their own tubes.



Yeah, I looked a little deeper and they certainly did. They seem to be as rare as rocking horse poop to find a real Westinghouse though, at least, these days. I've seen many that were definitely "others".
I'm still not certain which types they actually made themselves.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They were sort of like CBS. CBS actually made some damn nice tubes, but they out sourced from other companies. I see a lot of tubes on EBAY that say, "CBS," but they are really some other manufacturer.


----------



## Segovia

Just had to stop in and give another report on the goods Marty sent my way a few weeks ago.

I finally got around to picking up some =C='s for the DSL, and these made an already awesome sound get even better. Again, I have a RFT in v1, Raytheon BP in v2, Sylvania Grey plate in v3, and a Phillips made in v4 and brand new =C='s in the power section.

I don't have experience with other tubes (yet), but compared to the stock pre's it sounds a bit darker, and alot more muscular (don't know how else to put it heh). I got to push the volume up to 4-5 for a while today and it sounds absolutely killer. The RFT darkens the dsl a bit, but I still run 0 presence and 4 or 5 on the treble. It definitely brings the best out some really great qualities in the amp.

Thanks again Marty!


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a couple of Westinghouse branded Ei 12AX7s that were marked "Japan". Those are some confused little tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sort of like my RCA labeled, Made in Gt. Britain, Ei smooth plates. Just goes to show you how long Ei was in the game. They sure did fill some huge orders. Something tells me there are boxes of them in some old warehouse just waiting to be found.


----------



## RiverRatt

Where did everybody go??? I've been spending my spare time getting to know my strat and trying to figure out how to dial in a good tone on the Marshall with it. How do you guys do it? You just plug in a Les Paul and the tone is there but the strat is a different animal. Tubes ain't the problem. I can get a great clean sound but when I start to bump up the gain it gets very harsh. I can't figure out how to get that creamy sustain. Outboard gear? I've been looking at a Duncan Pickup Booster to give it a little more oomph.

Joe, your BEL should be on its way back to you tomorrow. Thanks again for sending it - it was one of the better tubes I've tried. Anybody else found anything interesting lately? I'm broke right now so I have to live vicariously through others.


----------



## solarburn

Cool man. I'm gonna compare it to some older BELS soon. I'll let you know what I find...

I forget what you have in the bridge of your strat. A SC or HB? I use to have SC in mine and I had a hard time getting a saturation I really dug. When I put the HB in the bridge it did what I knew needed done. Kicked it where it counts. Thick sustainful saturation and none of that pesky hollowness. I prefer a HB in my strats in the bridge but love them SC neck tones.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a SSS Texas Specials setup. The body is routed for a bridge humbucker, though. I'm thinking about getting another pickguard and loading it with a Pearly Gates and the middle and neck pickup from the Texas Specials. Did you leave the 250K pots with the humbucker?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a SSS Texas Specials setup. The body is routed for a bridge humbucker, though. I'm thinking about getting another pickguard and loading it with a Pearly Gates and the middle and neck pickup from the Texas Specials. Did you leave the 250K pots with the humbucker?



I actually dropped in a whole new Carvin set. I'll have to look and see what the pots are rated. It was one of those pick guard and pups with pots drop ins.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/group.php?cid=80

A buddy of mine wanted me to try the Carvins. I like the HB alot but have had better in the SC department. Still messing with height on the neck mostly. I give it a B SC wise and an A on the HB for meaty-ness hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. I've never really looked at Carvin stuff. I was actually thinking about finding a loaded Lonestar strat pickguard and dropping it in. One of these days.

I did make some progress. I picked up an old Digitech GSP5 preamp/processor a few weeks ago. I didn't like it with the Les Paul but it really wakes up the strat. I had it hooked up to the front ends of the DSL and Tweaker with the master on 10 and used the gain as the volume control. Man, that was a thick tone. I dialed in "Limelight" by Rush and a pretty hot blues tone that way. Even the bridge pickup has some balls.


----------



## mike mike

Hey guys. I just got an ENGL Invader 100. Should I leave it along for a while or slap some nos in it? I only played it once at the showroom, and I won't get to play it at home on my own gear until Sunday


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Cool. I've never really looked at Carvin stuff. I was actually thinking about finding a loaded Lonestar strat pickguard and dropping it in. One of these days.
> 
> I did make some progress. I picked up an old Digitech GSP5 preamp/processor a few weeks ago. I didn't like it with the Les Paul but it really wakes up the strat. I had it hooked up to the front ends of the DSL and Tweaker with the master on 10 and used the gain as the volume control. Man, that was a thick tone. I dialed in "Limelight" by Rush and a pretty hot blues tone that way. Even the bridge pickup has some balls.



Good go'n! You know me I like the effect on saturation when hit with a bit of boost. You know I don't mean for high gain either. Just a punchy crunchy grindage......budddeee(Pauly Shore)!!!!!

Now back to real men's tone's hehe...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I finally had to make myself overcome my mental block with effects and just say fuck it, if it sounds good it IS good. The only thing I hate about it is I'll have to change it completely around when I switch guitars. Kinda makes me want two DSLs now.


----------



## solarburn

Hahaha! Yeah that's exactly what I had to do with mine when it was all SC's. Now it sounds much better and all I have to do is switch from one to another generally speaking. 

I'm a simple player anyways. I like things to be attainable without too much fuss. I could never go rack mounted. I've tried some of that and its just too much tweaking parameters. I mean if they're there you tweak them. If not you make due with what is there which for me is mostly amp and a boost with some delay. I'm happy with that. As long as I can roll off to a clean I like and have nice dynamics, a lil' wet with tasty saturation I'm good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know what you mean, but this Digitech is the first piece of rack gear I've considered keeping. I only paid $35 for it and it's basically a decent preamp/chorus/flange/delay/reverb/eq chain. I've written a half-dozen decent patches for it so far. Mostly just different gain and eq settings with a little chorus and reverb on some. I can't get into multi-tap and long delays.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I know what you mean, but this Digitech is the first piece of rack gear I've considered keeping. I only paid $35 for it and it's basically a decent preamp/chorus/flange/delay/reverb/eq chain. I've written a half-dozen decent patches for it so far. Mostly just different gain and eq settings with a little chorus and reverb on some. I can't get into multi-tap and long delays.



I've got a Digitech 150 gathering dust under my bed that I had some fun with but found I'm just not multifaceted as far as my play'n. Plus my ears were always changing when I used it. I'd make some good patches and then it would sound not so good pretty quick. I didn't really like the OD's on it. Some of the time effects were pretty decent. I just grabbed it from under the bed. Frigg'n dusty hehe. Still have the plastic covering on the face of it. I've had this a couple of years now. Maybe I'll dust it off and try some of the delays in front of the amps. Last time I used it was with my power block I think...


----------



## RiverRatt

The trick is to write your own patches. I cut out most of the insane multi-taps and repeats. Most of my stuff either sounds very heavy mids for Marshall tones and more scooped Fender amp sounds. Like I said, the effects are minimal. What's cool about this unit is that it has an output adjustment that can be used as a booster into the front end of the amp. When I dialed that in with the ultra-clean amps with the master volume cranked it made it really dynamic and more of the amp's voice was in the mix. Plus, it's pretty damned loud, which always helps


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The trick is to write your own patches. I cut out most of the insane multi-taps and repeats. Most of my stuff either sounds very heavy mids for Marshall tones and more scooped Fender amp sounds. Like I said, the effects are minimal. What's cool about this unit is that it has an output adjustment that can be used as a booster into the front end of the amp. When I dialed that in with the ultra-clean amps with the master volume cranked it made it really dynamic and more of the amp's voice was in the mix. Plus, it's pretty damned loud, which always helps



Cool. Haven't got the chance to try mine again. Been out all day. I know I have some patches I configured saved on it but I have no idea what they were. It will be interesting to to hear again...or not hehe...


----------



## BluesRocker

So I am totally whipped on the Tele/Ray BP duo.. I got my 1987X today and that was the first thing that I did to it.. Man oh Man.. I love Marshalls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> So I am totally whipped on the Tele/Ray BP duo.. I got my 1987X today and that was the first thing that I did to it.. Man oh Man.. I love Marshalls.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Just scored another couple of Matsushita with the angled getters, £8.30 for the pair, tested NOS. 






Also got a Siemens labelled Ei the other day (thougth it might have been a Siemens smoothplate, or even a relabelled telefunken  ),for £2.20, popped it in the see if it was ok and kept it there as it sound really crisp and fat.

Just goes to show there still are bargains out there.


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just scored another couple of Matsushita with the angled getters, £8.30 for the pair, tested NOS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also got a Siemens labelled Ei the other day (thougth it might have been a Siemens smoothplate, or even a relabelled telefunken  ),for £2.20, popped it in the see if it was ok and kept it there as it sound really crisp and fat.
> 
> Just goes to show there still are bargains out there.



Hey Spirit, they sure look great, congrats. 
This must be picture-less auction the other day - saw it and wrote them asking about plate length and actually got a prompt reply. Figured I was bidding on enough already though and dropped the auction. Glad you won them and I got to see a picture of the tubes 
Wonder how often we end up trying to outbid each other - hmmmm

With respect to the EI you are not the only one trying to fish overlooked Tele's - did you see my post about a pair of Siemens labelled EI's the other day?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Hey Spirit, they sure look great, congrats.
> This must be picture-less auction the other day - saw it and wrote them asking about plate length and actually got a prompt reply. Figured I was bidding on enough already though and dropped the auction. Glad you won them and I got to see a picture of the tubes
> Wonder how often we end up trying to outbid each other - hmmmm
> 
> With respect to the EI you are not the only one trying to fish overlooked Tele's - did you see my post about a pair of Siemens labelled EI's the other day?



With regard to the Siemens/tele thing i missed that one, is it in this thread? 

On the Matsushitas yes those are the ones, i saw your question after i had bid on them, was hoping for the long plates and was a tad dissapointed when i read the reply to your question, but figured hey they could still be angled getters, and if not they would only have cost me less than the price of a CP valve anyway, so was glad to open the little packey to find 2 angled getters, im running 2 of them already in my DSL.

Tbh collecting valves has become an addiction, i cant pass up a bargain, even though i really have no need of them having more than enough for the forseeable future, maybe i should start selling off a few and getting drunk on the proceeds


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> With regard to the Siemens/tele thing i missed that one, is it in this thread?
> 
> On the Matsushitas yes those are the ones, i saw your question after i had bid on them, was hoping for the long plates and was a tad dissapointed when i read the reply to your question, but figured hey they could still be angled getters, and if not they would only have cost me less than the price of a CP valve anyway, so was glad to open the little packey to find 2 angled getters, im running 2 of them already in my DSL.
> 
> Tbh collecting valves has become an addiction, i cant pass up a bargain, even though i really have no need of them having more than enough for the forseeable future, maybe i should start selling off a few and getting drunk on the proceeds



Nothing important about the Siemens/EI - I was just bidding for a pair after you had posted pictures of your EI's and nearly fell off the chair when the auction ended at 101 EUR for 2 Siemens labelled EI's - somebody must have been hoping to see a little <> in the bottom and been very disappointed !!!

Tell me about collecting too many tubes, I have far more than I could possibly use in a lifetime by now, and still have trouble keeping my fingers off the keyboard at times. Won a couple of auctions lately that really annoyed me, the first one was for 6 RCA that I only started bidding on because I had already won one tube from the guy and figured combined shipping made sense. That was until I won them and realized I already have 11 bloody RCAs and really didn’t want more. The second one was even worse, 4 pcs of used ECC808 that I mistook for ECC83 in my haste – absolutely beautiful tubes but what the heck am I going to do with them. They are supposed to be ultra low noise and sort of build like a miniature ECC83 internally with extra rugged construction, shielding to avoid cross-talking and have a different pinout --- Good grief, as Marty would say … 


Also got some that I really wanted - they were by no means cheap but at least I did not regret winning these auctions – will post pictures at some point when they arrive.


----------



## marvin

I pulled a few more out of my stash. Can anyone help me identify these AX7's?
Two are Realistic 5751 with black plates. The other two are Japan, #326 and #26 (the 3 may be worn off?). They each have a different plate structure, one has longer plates than the other, both have round getters like a "halo".
TIA


----------



## RiverRatt

The 5751s are G.E. 

It looks to me like the MIJ tubes are both Hitachi, but I don't think I've seen one built quite like the one on the left before. It looks like much later construction than the one on the right.


----------



## marvin

RiverRatt said:


> The 5751s are G.E.
> 
> It looks to me like the MIJ tubes are both Hitachi, but I don't think I've seen one built quite like the one on the left before. It looks like much later construction than the one on the right.



Thanks RR! I haven't had a chance to try them. I've been making a prototype guitar for a customer and have had no free time for the past couple of weeks.


----------



## dna9656

Marty Et al;
I have a DSL 50 I bought it new in 03 I belive. I just re-tubed it, from original tubes. I bought 12AX7s and matched EL-34s, all JJ tubes. I had some noise prior to the re-tube, crashing like noise, intermitant, something like a bumped reverb but not spacy sounding like a reverb. When I first turned the amp on (after re-tube) I got a lot of static and it cleared up as the tubes got hot. I let it run (no playing) all night to break in the tubes. I have had a few days (12 or 14) of nice quiet operation, now the noise is back just like before, any ideas? 
I don't like to go to an amp tech I don't know and I feel even worse when I can't talk to them in an informed way....Who do you trust? 
Can any one recommend a reliable, trust worthy Amp Tech in the South Puget Sound (USA) area?


----------



## Inkalen

dna9656 said:


> Marty Et al;
> I have a DSL 50 I bought it new in 03 I belive. I just re-tubed it, from original tubes. I bought 12AX7s and matched EL-34s, all JJ tubes. I had some noise prior to the re-tube, crashing like noise, intermitant, something like a bumped reverb but not spacy sounding like a reverb. When I first turned the amp on (after re-tube) I got a lot of static and it cleared up as the tubes got hot. I let it run (no playing) all night to break in the tubes. I have had a few days (12 or 14) of nice quiet operation, now the noise is back just like before, any ideas?
> I don't like to go to an amp tech I don't know and I feel even worse when I can't talk to them in an informed way....Who do you trust?
> Can any one recommend a reliable, trust worthy Amp Tech in the South Puget Sound (USA) area?



Hi dna,
If I understand you correctly you changed the EL34's, did you re-bias the amp? You cannot just change the power tubes unless the new tubes are matched to the old ones which is very unlikely. If you did not re-bias and perhaps do not know how to do it I would put the old EL34s back in as a first step.
If the problem persists one option could be to flip the order of the preamp tubes around a couple of times and see if that changes anything. If you have an extra spare new one also try to substituting each one for the unused one and see if you can locate the problem. This has helped for me in one occation, and even though you bought brand new tubes one may already be bad - ah the wonders of modern tube manufacturing quality 
If none of this helps then perhaps someone else has some further suggestions, but ultimately you could end up needing an amp tech for re-soldering of sockets etc.
Good luck


----------



## RiverRatt

A 2003 DSL50 should have come with Ei 12AX7s, which are actually really good tubes. The noise you describe sounds like a noisy preamp tube. Do like inkalen says and swap them around and see if it improves. Try your old tubes one by one in V1 and V2 and see if they sound better than the JJ's - if they are still strong I'll bet they will 

It might also be that the tube sockets need cleaning. You can spray the tube pins with contact cleaner and work them in and out of the socket a few times.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DNA-Follow what has been posted in regard to your noise problems. While I don't mind JJ E34L's in the power section, I do not like using all JJ's in the preamp section on the DSL.


----------



## neal48

Marty. You come well recommended. What would be the best pre-amp and power tubes that I could re-tube my JVM?


----------



## RiverRatt

Lately I've been getting into running my DSL with the master on 10 and using the gain as the volume control and hitting the front end with a good clean boost. It really gives the low end a kick in the ass and it seems like I can control the overdrive better with the guitar volume pot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

neal48 said:


> Marty. You come well recommended. What would be the best pre-amp and power tubes that I could re-tube my JVM?



Well the best would be used or NOS European tubes by Philips for the preamp and RFT EL34's for power.

I would say either a ribbed plate Telefunken or a MiniWatt for V1 and then the standard V2 which is a Raytheon Black Plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Lately I've been getting into running my DSL with the master on 10 and using the gain as the volume control and hitting the front end with a good clean boost. It really gives the low end a kick in the ass and it seems like I can control the overdrive better with the guitar volume pot.



I've run an amp like that many times. 

I got your tubes, but I've been too busy to test them. Thanks again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it looks like the 6100 thread is getting ready to pass us in the views category. We are currently ahead by about 300 views.

Congratulations.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Lately I've been getting into running my DSL with the master on 10 and using the gain as the volume control and hitting the front end with a good clean boost. It really gives the low end a kick in the ass and it seems like I can control the overdrive better with the guitar volume pot.



Good way to get more open sounding rock tones on the DSL. Use to do this similarly just to get more vintage or classic tones out of mine. With the boost. You know i always liked to hit the front end with one.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it looks like the 6100 thread is getting ready to pass us in the views category. We are currently ahead by about 300 views.
> 
> Congratulations.



Those damn yackoholics are out do'n us...? Oh well. I like it here jus fine.


----------



## solarburn

I wonder what a MW in V1 and the BP in V2 would sound like in the JVM? I know the Tele/BP kicks ass in a DSL. Sure either of these would in a JVM in my best educated guess hehe.

Oh...can't go wrong with RFT EL34's.


----------



## solarburn

Haha! Just checked on Alan and he's off the site. Figures we get here and he buggers off!LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

He'll be all upset when he finds out he was a "no show."


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I made Italian food for the family last night. It's kind of a Saturday night tradition. I stopped at the liquid store on the way home from getting groceries with the wife and picked up a 1.75 liter bottle of a good red wine. Stopped by and talked to the HAM guy for a few minutes and picked up a couple of 6V6s and an old tube tester he wasn't using. Got home and started cooking and sampling the wine. 

By the time I had dinner on the table, I was about 1.25 liters into the wine. By about 10 p.m. I was sitting on the couch with a strat in my hands snoring. Now I'm sitting here trying to type while my eyes try to cross. I haven't had a hangover in years. I thought I had made myself immune to them. It figures... the one night there's a party here and I'm sacked out.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I made Italian food for the family last night. It's kind of a Saturday night tradition. I stopped at the liquid store on the way home from getting groceries with the wife and picked up a 1.75 liter bottle of a good red wine. Stopped by and talked to the HAM guy for a few minutes and picked up a couple of 6V6s and an old tube tester he wasn't using. Got home and started cooking and sampling the wine.
> 
> By the time I had dinner on the table, I was about 1.25 liters into the wine. By about 10 p.m. I was sitting on the couch with a strat in my hands snoring. Now I'm sitting here trying to type while my eyes try to cross. I haven't had a hangover in years. I thought I had made myself immune to them. It figures... the one night there's a party here and I'm sacked out.



When I share a bottle of wine with my wife, she will drink 2 glasses and leave the rest for me. So if your wife is anything along those lines and you finished the whole bottle then you consumed approximately 1.5 liters or the same as 2 regular bottles of wine and heck even with good wine that would give most people a hang-over


----------



## RiverRatt

That's exactly the way my wife is. The last time I got her profoundly drunk on wine, the result was our now 12-year-old son. We had friends over for dinner that night and between the four of us we wiped out several bottles of chianti. I don't think she's trusted me since 

There's a store near here that's selling Woodbridge wines for $9.75 per 1.75L bottle. Their Pinot Noir is a very nice table wine.


----------



## Inkalen

Hey Fellow Tube Nerds

My tube tester: 














A really great setup that enables me to test several tube parameters. Not the fastest tube tester but I get the job done


----------



## JCM900MkIII

Generally speaking in levels of gain here are my observations:
1. Sovtek 12ax7 preamp tubes have alot of gain and are grainy sounding.
2. Mullard 12ax7 preamp tubes have alot of gain and are very smooth.
3. Tung-Sol 12ax7 preamp tubes have a good amount of gain but much better harmonics and tone than the Sovteks.
4. JJ ECC83 (12ax7) preamp tubes have a little less gain, but better articulation and tighter bottom end. They have an excellent build quality for gigging musicians.
5. Sovetk 12ax7-LPS preamp tubes (known as the Long Plate Russian) have the least amount of gain, but add alot of articulation and bottom-end. The only draw back to these preamp tubes are they tend to be more microphonic, so may not work well in amps prone to noise.
6. ARS 12ax7 preamp tubes are very musical, have alot of harmonics and detail in their tone.

In one of my amps I have a #1 JJ, #2 JJ, and #3 Tung-Sol
In another of my amps I have a #1 Sovtek, #2 JJ, and #3 ARS
Preamp tubes are the never ending treasure hunt to unlocking the best possible tone from your amp.


----------



## Inkalen

JCM900MkIII said:


> Generally speaking in levels of gain here are my observations:
> 1. Sovtek 12ax7 preamp tubes have alot of gain and are grainy sounding.
> 2. Mullard 12ax7 preamp tubes have alot of gain and are very smooth.
> 3. Tung-Sol 12ax7 preamp tubes have a good amount of gain but much better harmonics and tone than the Sovteks.
> 4. JJ ECC83 (12ax7) preamp tubes have a little less gain, but better articulation and tighter bottom end. They have an excellent build quality for gigging musicians.
> 5. Sovetk 12ax7-LPS preamp tubes (known as the Long Plate Russian) have the least amount of gain, but add alot of articulation and bottom-end. The only draw back to these preamp tubes are they tend to be more microphonic, so may not work well in amps prone to noise.
> 6. ARS 12ax7 preamp tubes are very musical, have alot of harmonics and detail in their tone.
> 
> In one of my amps I have a #1 JJ, #2 JJ, and #3 Tung-Sol
> In another of my amps I have a #1 Sovtek, #2 JJ, and #3 ARS
> Preamp tubes are the never ending treasure hunt to unlocking the best possible tone from your amp.



Very interesting. I know Marty and some of the other regulars have suggestions as to good combinations of current production tubes, and perhaps this will expand on the options.

Have you ever tried some of the old production tubes ? If you are into rolling tubes you should consider trying some. Personally, I will never go back to current production tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Hey Fellow Tube Nerds
> 
> My tube tester:
> 
> A really great setup that enables me to test several tube parameters. Not the fastest tube tester but I get the job done



Care to expound on that? I've never seen anything like it before.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Care to expound on that? I've never seen anything like it before.



Absolutely, I will be happy to explain everything although finer details will have to wait since it is getting a bit late over here, especially due to the summer time switch.

Basically, I have 3 power supplies in use. If you just look at the test board itself, then the first one is delivering 12.6V for heater voltage (yellow cables, pin 4 and 5). The second one is delivering high (~250V) voltage for the anode (red cable, pin 1) and the last one is delivering the negative grid voltage (green cable, pin 2). The cathode voltage is then set to 0V (blue cable, pin 3). The 2 Metex multi-meters are measuring grid voltage (left Metex) and anode current (right Metex). 


I can then measure currents for one triode at different anode and grid voltages and calculate many of the parameters from this. For the other triode, I switch from pins 1, 2 and 3 to 6, 7 and 8.


I know this very brief, hope it makes some sense, but I have to get ready for the work-week. Be delighted to explain more in the next days


----------



## dna9656

MartyStrat54 said:


> DNA-Follow what has been posted in regard to your noise problems. While I don't mind JJ E34L's in the power section, I do not like using all JJ's in the preamp section on the DSL.


 Thank you to Marty and the other guys, I will give that a try. 
My amp has been out of the house 2 times; 1. Before I brought it home from GC, and 2. When I moved 26 miles away it rode with me in the truck on the seat. I shot the tube sockets with contact cleaner and lube about 2 years ago. I was very careful about overspray and didn't leave puddels of the stuff laying around in there. Other than the dust on my tolex it looks brand-new. I know solder joints can heat up and the solder can run out of the joint, and/or become a cold joint. 
The tubes I replaced were originals. So they might not be the source of the noise? Could the noise I'm getting be line noise? I have a furman multi outlet I plug all the musical stuff into. GC told me it had limited filtering capabilities....It has 6 outlets.


----------



## GreaserMatt

Anyone know if JJ brand 12ax7's come w/ the logo printed on them? I got an 800 recently w/ JJ EL34's, & all the preamp tubes just have a very large blotchy '12AX7' printed on them in red lettering...


----------



## solarburn

GreaserMatt said:


> Anyone know if JJ brand 12ax7's come w/ the logo printed on them? I got an 800 recently w/ JJ EL34's, & all the preamp tubes just have a very large blotchy '12AX7' printed on them in red lettering...



Take a look at the inside of one of them. Does it match this pic?


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, that stupid Crate Vintage Club cracked another preamp tube! The crack looks almost identical to the way the RFT cracked that I posted a few pages back. At least this time is was a Sovtek 12AX7WA. I cut the springs inside the shields in half and left just enough tension on them that they hold the shields in place. I'm starting to wonder if it's some kind of heat issue. I went over the thing this weekend and cleaned all the tube sockets and re-tubed it with some better glass. It's now noise-free and a really good sounding little combo but I'm getting pissed off at this tube breaking thing. 

It uses 3 12AX7s but only V1 is used in the gain stages. V2A is the tone stack driver and V2B is the phase inverter. V3 is the reverb driver. I'm thinking old glass in V1 only and something expendable in V2 and V3 at least until I see if it's going to behave. Got my Martimus 6P14Ps in the power section and they are as chimey as ever. The amp leans heavily in the Vox direction anyway so they compliment it nicely.


----------



## Inkalen

Inkalen said:


> Hey Fellow Tube Nerds
> 
> My tube tester:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A really great setup that enables me to test several tube parameters. Not the fastest tube tester but I get the job done



Ok, let me see if I can explain how I use this home-brew tube tester. As described briefly, I have 3 power supplies that each delivers one part of the necessary voltages: one for the heater (12,6V), one for grid voltage (0V to -2V) and one for the high voltage anode (100V to 250V). With this setup I can directly measure the transconductance S, the plate resistance Rp and also the gain Mu. In reality there is no need for extra separate measurements of Mu, since that can be calculated from the tube equation (Mu = S x Rp).

For measuring S:
For measuring one triode, I put the tube in the socket and let it heat up with something close to -1.6V at the grid, 250V at the anode and the cathode at 0V. After 2-5 minutes when the tube has stabilized, I record the anode current value and change the grid voltage to about -1.3V, record the anode current again and repeat this once more with a grid voltage of about -1.1V. This leaves me with 3 datasets of grid voltage and anode currents. Since I am operating the tube in its most linear range, these values are supposed to be on a straight line. I then calculate the parameters of this line (linear regression), and the slope is actually the transconductance S of the triode. As an example, I just measured a tube where one triode gave these datasets (-1.66V, 1.88mA), (-1.34V, 2,58mA) and (-1.05V, 3,26mA). Calculating the slope of the line this resulted in: S = 2.26mA/V

For measuring Rp:
I lower the anode voltage to 150V, set the grid voltage to 0V and record the anode current. Further lower the anode voltage to 100V and record the anode current again. This leaves me with 2 datasets of anode voltage (150V, 100V) and anode currents. The triode in the example above gave 3.72mA and 2.48mA. I then calculate the plate resistance:

Rp = (150V - 100V) / (3.72mA – 2.48mA) = 50V / 1.24mA = 50V / 0.00124A = 40.3kOhms

For calculating Mu:
Using the Tube equation that gives: Mu = S x Rp = 2.26mA/V x 40.3kOhms = 91

That is a very nice tube btw. 

As you can see, I get a bit more values than most tube testers at the expense of time, but I do not get all. First of all, the values I record are at static conditions and the tube can change behaviour in a dynamic environment. Also this says nothing about noise or microphonic behaviour, so that will have to be seen in the amp itself.

Hope this makes some sense and is not way too nerdy


----------



## RiverRatt

That's very impressive. It doesn't look much more complicated than my HAM friend's B&K 747. I have to admit I have a mental block when it comes to math, though. I'm assuming you're only set up to do 9-pin tubes? I guess you'd have to make a new socket board and have a 6.3v power supply to do any others?


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> That's very impressive. It doesn't look much more complicated than my HAM friend's B&K 747. I have to admit I have a mental block when it comes to math, though. I'm assuming you're only set up to do 9-pin tubes? I guess you'd have to make a new socket board and have a 6.3v power supply to do any others?



Thanks 

As for so many other things (math?), once you know how to do it, it is really not that difficult 

I use Excell to keep track of all my tubes and I have programmed the Excell sheet to calculate all tube parameters, so now I just need to key in the numbers.

At the moment I have only fitted a 9 pin socket, and yes it would require changes to the socket board or ultimately a new one to work with other tube sizes. The high voltage power supply can go to 300V and the two others (in the lower unit) have a range from 0-30V. So a 6.3V heater is no problem and as a matter of fact I have used that several times by now. 

Lately, I have fallen in love with frame grid tubes. It might seem a bit strange, but after more than 275 pages in this thread nobody has ever mentioned frame grid tubes. At the moment I am using a Tesla E83CC in V1 in my JVM205 and to my ears that tube is absolutely incredible in this amp! 

Once I was on to frame grid tubes I discovered E283CC tubes, and I juusssttt had to own some. Collected a small stash of them by now - they are rare but a true sleeper and can be had for very reasonable prices sometimes. Got 2 NIB Siemens for 20$ recently! These use 6.3V heater voltage, have a different pin layout so I have not tried any yet, but have evil plans for making an adapter.


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Lately, I have fallen in love with frame grid tubes. It might seem a bit strange, but after more than 275 pages in this thread nobody has ever mentioned frame grid tubes. At the moment I am using a Tesla E83CC in V1 in my JVM205 and to my ears that tube is absolutely incredible in this amp!



Are there others besides Tesla? I guess they never came up because nobody had one. Send me a couple and I'll give them a try. 

What part of England are you from? I've got a friend who's here from Liverpool for a couple of weeks.


----------



## MM54

Inkalen said:


> Ok, let me see if I can explain how I use this home-brew tube tester. As described briefly, I have 3 power supplies that each delivers one part of the necessary voltages: one for the heater (12,6V), one for grid voltage (0V to -2V) and one for the high voltage anode (100V to 250V). With this setup I can directly measure the transconductance S, the plate resistance Rp and also the gain Mu. In reality there is no need for extra separate measurements of Mu, since that can be calculated from the tube equation (Mu = S x Rp).
> 
> For measuring S:
> For measuring one triode, I put the tube in the socket and let it heat up with something close to -1.6V at the grid, 250V at the anode and the cathode at 0V. After 2-5 minutes when the tube has stabilized, I record the anode current value and change the grid voltage to about -1.3V, record the anode current again and repeat this once more with a grid voltage of about -1.1V. This leaves me with 3 datasets of grid voltage and anode currents. Since I am operating the tube in its most linear range, these values are supposed to be on a straight line. I then calculate the parameters of this line (linear regression), and the slope is actually the transconductance S of the triode. As an example, I just measured a tube where one triode gave these datasets (-1.66V, 1.88mA), (-1.34V, 2,58mA) and (-1.05V, 3,26mA). Calculating the slope of the line this resulted in: S = 2.26mA/V
> 
> For measuring Rp:
> I lower the anode voltage to 150V, set the grid voltage to 0V and record the anode current. Further lower the anode voltage to 100V and record the anode current again. This leaves me with 2 datasets of anode voltage (150V, 100V) and anode currents. The triode in the example above gave 3.72mA and 2.48mA. I then calculate the plate resistance:
> 
> Rp = (150V - 100V) / (3.72mA – 2.48mA) = 50V / 1.24mA = 50V / 0.00124A = 40.3kOhms
> 
> For calculating Mu:
> Using the Tube equation that gives: Mu = S x Rp = 2.26mA/V x 40.3kOhms = 91
> 
> That is a very nice tube btw.
> 
> As you can see, I get a bit more values than most tube testers at the expense of time, but I do not get all. First of all, the values I record are at static conditions and the tube can change behaviour in a dynamic environment. Also this says nothing about noise or microphonic behaviour, so that will have to be seen in the amp itself.
> 
> Hope this makes some sense and is not way too nerdy



Fanfuckingtastic! I've been thinking about making my own amp-condition transconductance tube tester for 12AX7's and EL34/6CA7's but had no idea how to execute the idea. I think now I have a general idea of what to put together, and how to use it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and I would like an Amplitrex and a Maxi-Matcher. With those, you can do anything.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hell, I just want one that works dependably. I've got a good emissions tester now, but it's just an emissions tester. I've got a tester that should give a good mutual conductance reading, except it only reads at around 50% for a good tube. I like Philip's approach - just build one. I've got three testers now and not a damned one of them is worth a popcorn fart.


----------



## GreaserMatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Take a look at the inside of one of them. Does it match this pic?


 

Yeah, it looks the same, just w/ a big red '12AX7' printed on each one lengthwise along the tube... no logo...


----------



## GIBSON67

I have been trying some of my tubes and I really like the black plate 5751 in V1. I have an older Fender 7025 in V2 and a Magnavox 12AX7 in V3.

But my question is...

Will running a 12AT7 as the PI hurt anything in my Marshall 1987? Longterm issues? 
What are your thoughts on different tubes for the PI, like a 5751? 12AU7? 12BZ7? 

Also, I only like my Strat in the low bass input. Is this because I can run the volume higher so I get more power tube distortion? Does anyone else do this?


----------



## Inkalen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah and I would like an Amplitrex and a Maxi-Matcher. With those, you can do anything.



Hey Marty, that Amplitrex looks absolutely splendid, but eehhhh 2675$ .........


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Are there others besides Tesla? I guess they never came up because nobody had one. Send me a couple and I'll give them a try.
> 
> What part of England are you from? I've got a friend who's here from Liverpool for a couple of weeks.



Hi Alan,
The most famous frame grid tube is without doubt the Telefunken ECC803S (S stands for spanngitter, which is frame grid in German) and these days those tubes are only for people with happy bank connections as a single tube can approach 1000$. 

Telefunken was, however, far from first with this. I remember reading somewhere that Siemens invented the frame grid construction in the early 50's and that is long before the ECC803S came out. I think, but Marty or someone else please correct me if I am wrong, that this construction principle was mostly used by European manufactures. Originally, frame grids were used in professional applications, as they were expensive to produce, but later on the price came down and their use widened. Due to their construction these tubes are much less prone to turn microphonic which is of course great for a guitar amp particularly a combo like my 205.

When Telefunken stopped producing tubes Tesla supposedly took over some of the equipment, and contrary to all the fairy tales about Mullard equipment in India, Japan and where not, I think this story has some validity. Tesla named their Telefunken ECC803S copy E83CC – no idea why as that is as illogical as it gets. Tesla also made a Tele ECC83 rough plate copy that they called ECC803S to add to the confusion – so maybe they had already used the name once – who knows. From what I have seen in pictures, the Tesla E83CC does not look fully identical to the Telefunken mother tube internally; perhaps they tried to simplify production?

I have collected a few of the Tesla E83CC tubes, these usually go for around 50$ at ebay depending on age, manufacturing plant, with or without gold pins, phase of the moon etc. The first ones I got really cheap but it is a bit hard to get lucky with these tubes. Liking the sound and trying to find more of these type of tubes, I stumbled over the E283CC tubes which to my knowledge were only produced by Siemens. The E283CC is probably as close as you get to the Tele ECC803S but have a different pinout, 6.3V heater voltage and extra shielding between the triodes. For someone like you, who build amps yourself, it would be very easy to rewire for E283CC use, so perhaps you should consider trying one at some point!?

Actually, I am from further east than England from a small Nordic country called Denmark. Not a very widely known country, and at the moment we are perhaps mostly noticed for having a famous lady tennis player and some F16s trying to hit Gadaffi's tent


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry about that... I wasn't thinking that far east. 

I thought that Ei ended up with the old Telefunken equipment. I didn't know Tesla was in on it, too.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hell, I just want one that works dependably. I've got a good emissions tester now, but it's just an emissions tester. I've got a tester that should give a good mutual conductance reading, except it only reads at around 50% for a good tube. I like Philip's approach - just build one. I've got three testers now and not a damned one of them is worth a popcorn fart.



I started sketching out a schematic today for one, I'll let you all know (of course) when progress is reasonable, and who knows when I'll get finding to even start


----------



## MartyStrat54

Amperex was making them for a long time as well.


----------



## thrawn86

Wow! What a cool ad. "Minimum Guaranteed 10,000 hour life".........forget what everyone else says; NOS is king. And you're never going to see 'higher speed computer operation' again in connection with a tube. I forget that they used to advertise all this stuff.


----------



## Inkalen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Amperex was making them for a long time as well.



Well there we go, never seen them, glad I wrote mostly !

Wondering though, according to Wikipedia Amperex was taken over by Philips in 1955, and if my memory is not failing me you once wrote that Philips controlled most of the European tube manufactures including the Siemens/Halske tube division. This late 50's Amperex designed tube looks suspiciously much like the Siemens frame grid types so perhaps the technology was transferred to the US by Philips?


Marty, have you come across any other US made frame grid tubes at some time?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a Siemens und Halske. How do I tell?


----------



## Blcws6

Hey guys, Ive been following this thread for quite sometime and love the info Ive gained from it.
Id like to ask some opinions. I have a 98 DSL 401 I just obtained and i have placed new jj power tubes in it and biased it at around 1.000mV 
I would love to play around with the preamp tubes. As of now I have two unknowns in there that have no label on them and two Phillips JAN 12ax7s. I think I will keep the phillips tubes but would like to replace the other two. Any suggestions? I know a few of you guys on here have played around with preamps in the DSL401's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Inkalen said:


> Well there we go, never seen them, glad I wrote mostly !
> 
> Marty, have you come across any other US made frame grid tubes at some time?



Well Philips did indeed buy the Amperex brand and they used the brand to launch their new line of mini's. An Amperex can be one of several tubes. I just sent Joe (Solarburn) an Amperex Mullard. They can also be a Philips brand tube or a MiniWatt.

For a long time, a tube was made with quality in mind. At some point, tubes were made cheaper. If I could buy all pre-66 tubes, I would. A tube made in the mid-50's was made under very strict manufacturing standards. 

Frame grid tubes were just another way of making a superior tube back when cost per unit wasn't such a hard factor.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a Siemens und Halske. How do I tell?


 Siemens made many different 12AX7/ECC83 versions but AFAIK all of these have normal grids. The frame grid versions were different tubes such as E88CC, E283CC etc. If your tube has the “normal” Philips style plate structure it has a regular grid for sure. The plate structure is quite different on the frame grid tubes I have seen, I will try to post some pictures of some of mine later, but take a look at: 
Tesla E83CC NOS (NOT JJ) - MINT NOS 1982 Military Frame Grid Cross Swords Premium ECC83 12AX7 - Replica of TFKN - (M.Pairs/Quads/Singles)

Remind you of something? They look quite a bit like the JJ ECC83S and I believe that the JJs are in fact frame grid tubes being produced using the old Tesla knowledge. So just because a tube has a frame grid it is not necessarily a nice tube!


----------



## Inkalen

GreaserMatt said:


> Anyone know if JJ brand 12ax7's come w/ the logo printed on them? I got an 800 recently w/ JJ EL34's, & all the preamp tubes just have a very large blotchy '12AX7' printed on them in red lettering...


 Perhaps you could post some pictures ?


----------



## Michael. L.

Hey Man,
check out my thread "the quest for perfect tone"
extremely long thread but very valuable information on it regarding tone and pre/power amp tubes
Let me know what you think
also check out some of my pics on the gear I'm currently using
Cheers, Mick from OZ!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome aboard Mick. Good to have you.


----------



## Michael. L.

Thanks Marty,
We've chatted before!!!
I've read some of your threads
Great stuff!!
Cheers, Mick from OZ!!!


----------



## GreaserMatt

Inkalen said:


> Perhaps you could post some pictures ?


 
I'll pull one out tomorrow & get a pic...


----------



## Inkalen

Blcws6 said:


> Hey guys, Ive been following this thread for quite sometime and love the info Ive gained from it.
> Id like to ask some opinions. I have a 98 DSL 401 I just obtained and i have placed new jj power tubes in it and biased it at around 1.000mV
> I would love to play around with the preamp tubes. As of now I have two unknowns in there that have no label on them and two Phillips JAN 12ax7s. I think I will keep the phillips tubes but would like to replace the other two. Any suggestions? I know a few of you guys on here have played around with preamps in the DSL401's.



Hi Blcws6
Is it possible for you to post some pictures of the preamp tubes you have in at that moment? It would be a lot easier to come with suggestions that could improve your tone if we know what you have at the moment. 
Of course another way is to just jump onboard the tube rolling wagon and try whatever your ebay-luck brings you. I you have followed this thread you might remember that a Philips style (Philips, Mullard, Valvo, Siemens, Amperex etc.) or a Telefunken is a very good choice for V1, and then the everlasting Raytheon Black plate for V2. For the remaining spots you can experiment with what you have now, as long as the tubes are good you will likely not hear much difference.


----------



## Blcws6

Ill give throwin up some pics a shot sometime soon when I get some free time.
On a good note...after following you guys on here for a while I decided to take my tow JAN phillips tubes and change their positions because the owner before me had them in V3 and V4. NOTE, I replaced the power sections with JJ's
........anywho I decided to put one of the phillips JAN's in V1 and HOLY SHIT my amp came alive. I played with a friend this weekend and could really crank it and my tone has completely warmed up and the lacking middle and upper middle is hitting strong now!! She screams! Im and soo soo happy. I did take the other and try it in V2 but didnt like it as much as I did in V3 so now my preamp sections looks like:

V1 PHillips JAN
V2 unknown
V3 Phillips JAN
V4 Unkown

Im am currently scavenging ebay to join this tube rolling train and see what kinda tones I can achieve. Next up im lookin for a 12bz7 or a black plate tube as has been suggested for V2.

Once again, thanks guys for sharing all of your knowledge....My next change to the amp will be a vintage 30. Im currently running the stock speaker along with an extra ext. cabinte (egnater 1x12 with g12h30 in it)


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't put the 12BZ7 too high on your list. I'd score some good 12AX7s before going there. You'd do better to put your best tone tubes in V1 and V2. V3 isn't going to affect the tone much no matter what, and a good strong tube in V4 will help, no matter what the make. Get us a picture of the tubes when you can and we'll let you know what the unidentified one is. Welcome aboard!


----------



## solarburn

Blcws6 said:


> Ill give throwin up some pics a shot sometime soon when I get some free time.
> On a good note...after following you guys on here for a while I decided to take my tow JAN phillips tubes and change their positions because the owner before me had them in V3 and V4. NOTE, I replaced the power sections with JJ's
> ........anywho I decided to put one of the phillips JAN's in V1 and HOLY SHIT my amp came alive. I played with a friend this weekend and could really crank it and my tone has completely warmed up and the lacking middle and upper middle is hitting strong now!! She screams! Im and soo soo happy. I did take the other and try it in V2 but didnt like it as much as I did in V3 so now my preamp sections looks like:
> 
> V1 PHillips JAN
> V2 unknown
> V3 Phillips JAN
> V4 Unkown
> 
> Im am currently scavenging ebay to join this tube rolling train and see what kinda tones I can achieve. Next up im lookin for a 12bz7 or a black plate tube as has been suggested for V2.
> 
> Once again, thanks guys for sharing all of your knowledge....My next change to the amp will be a vintage 30. Im currently running the stock speaker along with an extra ext. cabinte (egnater 1x12 with g12h30 in it)



I really like the Jan Philips 12AX7WA. It makes a good PI in 2 of my EL84 amps where there is only 2 preamp tubes. Its flavor still comes through and goes well with my Mini Watt or BEL in V1. 

I like it as a V1 too.


----------



## GreaserMatt

Ok, so here's the best shot I could get of one of these damn things, LOL... if you are looking at the back of my jcm800 2205, this is whats in the 2nd through the 4th positions. I've got a pair of old sovtek 12AX7WB's in the 1st & 5th postitions... these 'generic' 12AX7's just have this big, red 12AX7 printed on them, no logo. My tech told me than any(?) recent pre-amp tube that has that chrome plate inside is made in china... not sure if its true, but he does know his shit, in most cases it seems...


----------



## GreaserMatt

Here's a shot of the back...


Edit: oh damn, you can see it clear as day in this pic; I'm a dork, LOL...


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd put one of the Chinese tubes in V1. I don't like the tone of the Sovtek 12AX7s at all.


----------



## Troy T. Blues

I haven't read through all the pages here, but I have to post something that happened just last night. I recently acquired a 2003 DSL100 and it came with Chinese 12AX7's. They may have been the stock tubes? See pic below. Anyways, I immediately took them out and put in some old Ei and Telefunken 12AX7's from my very limited stash. Long story short, I've been having sort of a love/and not totally satisfied relationship with the amp in general. Last night, just for kicks, I decided to try the Chinese 12AX7's since I've heard the others for a while. Wow! I was instantly surprised with the tone!! They seemed to sound a little clearer, maybe a bit more gain and it definitely had a little more of that high end bite that I was looking for. Does this sound right? It sounded great! Much better! Are my ears playing tricks on me?  How could these sound better than Ei's and Telefunkens?  I also think it sounds better even when I run an OD pedal in front to kick on more gain. I like the sound of the gain structure more now. It doesn't sound quite as choked and sterile or something? 

***More to follow as this just happened last night. Who knows? I could be back to square one. 

Reference: JCM800 2x12 Marshall 1936 Cab with UK V30's....living in the Classic Channel - Crunch mode with a Les Paul. I play alot in the guitars middle position as well as the bridge. If I'm playing the bridge, I may back off the highs a bit. The bass is huge sounding to me hence why I set it lower...it also sounds tighter to me this way.

Presence:6
Treble:6
Middle:5
Bass:3-4 
Reverb: No higher than 2
Gain:about 3:00


----------



## johnfv

Troy T. Blues said:


> ..Chinese 12AX7... ...more gain and it definitely had a little more of that high end bite that I was looking for...


That is exactly how I would describe the Chinese 12AX7 tubes I have and depending on the amp and the tone you are looking for they can be great. In my 18W TMB I recently swapped the "NOS" Mullard I have for a Chinese 12AX7 for the same reason - more gain and bite; I'll try that Mullard in the 2204 clone I have coming soon.  No disrespect to the very knowledgeable folks here in the forums but IMO sometimes the CP stuff gets much more of a bad rap than deserved.


----------



## Inkalen

GreaserMatt said:


> Here's a shot of the back...
> 
> 
> Edit: oh damn, you can see it clear as day in this pic; I'm a dork, LOL...



Hi GreaserMatt
On the previous page you said your tubes with red lettering looked like the JJ Solarburn showed, but from your pictures I do not think that conclusion is fully correct. Although it is a bit hard to spot, I think I see a triple mica and plate structure that matches a Shuguang Chinese tube. So my guess is they are a slightly older version of Chinese Shuguangs. In my opinion not a particularly great tube, and neither are the Sovteks, so the wonderful news is that you have a lot of room for sound improvement


----------



## Inkalen

GreaserMatt said:


> My tech told me than any(?) recent pre-amp tube that has that chrome plate inside is made in china... not sure if its true, but he does know his shit, in most cases it seems...



Nope not that simple, I have 3 JJs with a silver/chrome plate structure, that came from my Marshall JVM205. If he is referring to the the "extra" chrome shield that the Shuguang have, then he might be right.


----------



## Troy T. Blues

johnfv said:


> That is exactly how I would describe the Chinese 12AX7 tubes I have and depending on the amp and the tone you are looking for they can be great. In my 18W TMB I recently swapped the "NOS" Mullard I have for a Chinese 12AX7 for the same reason - more gain and bite; I'll try that Mullard in the 2204 clone I have coming soon.  No disrespect to the very knowledgeable folks here in the forums but IMO sometimes the CP stuff gets much more of a bad rap than deserved.


 
Ah-ha! That's good to know! I have very little experience with Chinese 12AX7's. So, let me ask this...if Chinese tubes are my thing with the DSL, or any Marshall for that matter, what is considered to be the best of the bunch with these characteristics? (more gain and more bite).

Edit:
How about this one?
Shuguang 12AX7-A

or this?
Shuguang 12AX7-B



12AX7, ECC83, 7025 - Preamp Tubes | Dougstubes.com

Anybody know how the Tung-Sol compares to the Chinese?
http://www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12ax7-ecc83-7025/tung-sol-12ax7-re-issue.html

Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've said that I prefer the Chinese tubes over any of the other CP stuff. They can be the right tube for some amps.


----------



## Troy T. Blues

RiverRatt said:


> I've said that I prefer the Chinese tubes over any of the other CP stuff. They can be the right tube for some amps.


 
Yup!

Had I not heard it for myself...


----------



## Inkalen

johnfv said:


> That is exactly how I would describe the Chinese 12AX7 tubes I have and depending on the amp and the tone you are looking for they can be great. In my 18W TMB I recently swapped the "NOS" Mullard I have for a Chinese 12AX7 for the same reason - more gain and bite; I'll try that Mullard in the 2204 clone I have coming soon.  No disrespect to the very knowledgeable folks here in the forums but IMO sometimes the CP stuff gets much more of a bad rap than deserved.



No offense taken, any opinion on tubes and sound is valid. When considering this, I think that there are two important things to keep in mind. The first one is that we all have different ears, what I like you may not and vice versa - so no absolute answer to the best sound exist. We may simply prefer different aspects to the sound and that is as fair as it gets. The second one is that one has to be very careful not comparing apples and oranges with tubes, unless you had your tubes tested recently you don't really know how good they are, so the old tubes you are referring to could simply be worn. The life span of these glass bottles is really not that long, and once they are going downhill they lose their bite and the sound turns progressively dull. 

If you are interested in trying well tested and trusted tubes Marty sells them and he can help you with tuning to the sound you like. If you still prefer the Chinese tubes consider yourself lucky, that is heck of a lot cheaper


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

I have a box full of CP valves, and a whole heap of old glass, it would be great if i could just plop the CP in and sell of the old valves i have, I may have to try them and see how it goes.....but.....

The thing is I have had several CPs crap out on me after little to no time at all, and so far (and i know this is no way scientific) none of the old valves have let me down. Bearing in mind im running valves that are anywhere from 30-50 years old does this suggest that they built them to last back in the day and CP valves just are not manufactured to such high tolerences.
btw almost all of the old valves i have i have paid less than buying a new CP, so mostly the value thing doesnt enter into the equation, plus its bloody good fun hunting them down and waiting for them to show up !


----------



## johnfv

Troy T. Blues said:


> ...How about this one?
> Shuguang 12AX7-A
> 
> or this?
> Shuguang 12AX7-B
> ...[/URL]
> 
> Anybody know how the Tung-Sol compares to the Chinese?
> Tung-Sol 12AX7 re-issue - 12AX7 / ECC83 / 7025 - Preamp Tubes
> 
> Thanks.



Most of mine are the 12AX7A (some from thetubestore but some are Ruby, GT, etc. I have around). IMO, at that price buy a couple and see what you like, I may try the 12AX7B myself next order. Based on what you've said the China tubes likely will be your favorite (the most bite) but the Tungsol can be good (currently using one in V1 on a JTM45 clone). The EH 12AX7 has good gain and a nice edge you might like. I also like the JJ 12AX7 a lot in some amps but definitely less bite than the Shuguang.


----------



## Troy T. Blues

johnfv said:


> Most of mine are the 12AX7A (some from thetubestore but some are Ruby, GT, etc. I have around). IMO, at that price buy a couple and see what you like, I may try the 12AX7B myself next order. Based on what you've said the China tubes likely will be your favorite (the most bite) but the Tungsol can be good (currently using one in V1 on a JTM45 clone). The EH 12AX7 has good gain and a nice edge you might like. I also like the JJ 12AX7 a lot in some amps but definitely less bite than the Shuguang.


 
Thanks John. I could definitely try a few different ones, but since I have the Chinese in all four slots, it will be tough to determine when mix/matching. In a DSL100, I'm assuming that V1 would have most effect?

BTW...what is "CP"?


----------



## johnfv

Inkalen said:


> ...what I like you may not and vice versa - so no absolute answer to the best sound exist... ...If you are interested in trying well tested and trusted tubes Marty sells them...


Agreed. I do have some "OS" tubes (lets face it most are not "New") that I got from Marty and they are very nice - I'm glad to own them. I just decided in that in the TMB channel of this amp the gain and bite of Shuguang was what I needed for the P-90 pickup I was using. I'll find a good spot for that sweet Mullard! Bottom line, let your ears be the judge and don't be so hung up on when/where it was manufactured.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Troy T. Blues said:


> Thanks John. I could definitely try a few different ones, but since I have the Chinese in all four slots, it will be tough to determine when mix/matching. In a DSL100, I'm assuming that V1 would have most effect?
> 
> BTW...what is "CP"?




CP=Current Production


----------



## johnfv

Troy T. Blues said:


> Thanks John. I could definitely try a few different ones, but since I have the Chinese in all four slots, it will be tough to determine when mix/matching. In a DSL100, I'm assuming that V1 would have most effect?
> 
> BTW...what is "CP"?


Yes. V1 is most noticeable, do your initial auditions there. CP means Current Production, basically anything not made in the "golden era" of tubes. I'll let the experts better define it but pretty much anything made from the 70s on is CP.


----------



## Troy T. Blues

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> CP=Current Production


 
Ah...doh! Thanks.



johnfv said:


> Yes. V1 is most noticeable, do your initial auditions there.


 
That's what I thought...thanks again John.


----------



## Inkalen

Hey CP Guys,
I have 7 12AX7 Electro Harmonix, 1 Sovtek Cryo 12AX7C, 2 Harma Retro Cryo Balanced and 1 Harma Diamond Drive tested to high gain range. All purchased from Watford Valves about one year ago. 4 of the EH and 1 of the Harma have been in my amp for 3 days the rest have never been used. I still have the receipt and also my own test results for gain/transconductance. So if you are interested, I am sure we can find a good deal for the whole lot!!!


----------



## Blcws6

What do you guys think about a 1963 GE 12ax7 that tested at 130% on a Jackson 648S?? It has long grey plates and a halo getter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Should be a decent high gain V1. I personally like GE tubes. I ran a TSL 122 with all GE's in it for over a year. Best thing is to try it in the V1 slot.


----------



## RiverRatt

GE's can sound pretty good in V1 of a Marshall. 130% is a really strong tube which isn't always a good choice for V1, although you'll get the best idea what it sounds like there. Are you using a DSL? The tube following it in V2 has a bearing on the overall tone as well. Just about every one who as tried one thinks that the Raytheon black plate is THE tube for V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have "inched up" on how stout of a tube I will use in V1. I say try the GE in V1. If it works for you great. If not, then try it in V2 or the PI slot.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I remember talking about that. I can handle a fairly high-gain tube in V1 as long as I have a higher-gain in V2.


----------



## Blcws6

Thanks for the input guys, as always you are a huge help. I will either give that a try or this RCA black plate that I have found for sale. 
.....and hey, if they dont work in my amp I can always sell em to my buddy who needs some NOS tubes in his Bugera 333XL badly.


----------



## Blcws6

I assume the RCA black plate is quite an impressive tube as well?


----------



## Troy T. Blues

Troy T. Blues said:


> I haven't read through all the pages here, but I have to post something that happened just last night. I recently acquired a 2003 DSL100 and it came with Chinese 12AX7's. They may have been the stock tubes? See pic below. Anyways, I immediately took them out and put in some old Ei and Telefunken 12AX7's from my very limited stash. Long story short, I've been having sort of a love/and not totally satisfied relationship with the amp in general. Last night, just for kicks, I decided to try the Chinese 12AX7's since I've heard the others for a while. Wow! I was instantly surprised with the tone!! They seemed to sound a little clearer, maybe a bit more gain and it definitely had a little more of that high end bite that I was looking for. Does this sound right? It sounded great! Much better! Are my ears playing tricks on me?  How could these sound better than Ei's and Telefunkens?  I also think it sounds better even when I run an OD pedal in front to kick on more gain. I like the sound of the gain structure more now. It doesn't sound quite as choked and sterile or something?
> 
> ***More to follow as this just happened last night. Who knows? I could be back to square one.
> 
> Reference: JCM800 2x12 Marshall 1936 Cab with UK V30's....living in the Classic Channel - Crunch mode with a Les Paul. I play alot in the guitars middle position as well as the bridge. If I'm playing the bridge, I may back off the highs a bit. The bass is huge sounding to me hence why I set it lower...it also sounds tighter to me this way.
> 
> Presence:6
> Treble:6
> Middle:5
> Bass:3-4
> Reverb: No higher than 2
> Gain:about 3:00


 
I would like to buy a set of new Chinese 12AX7's that are closest to the ones that I have in the pic above. Can someone tell me, maybe based on structure and my description what would be the closest based on what's available now? Thanks alot!


----------



## Inkalen

An ebay search for 12ax7 Shuguang turns out a fair number of hits that you could study. I would probably try to find some from the newest generation as the early generations do not have the best reputation


----------



## Blcws6

Any thoughts on an RCA Black Plate guys?


----------



## Troy T. Blues

Inkalen said:


> An ebay search for 12ax7 Shuguang turns out a fair number of hits that you could study. I would probably try to find some from the newest generation as the early generations do not have the best reputation



Will do...Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blcws6 said:


> Any thoughts on an RCA Black Plate guys?



IMO RCA tubes are great for Fender amps, not so much so with Marshalls. They don't seem to have very strong mids but they do have a nice round top end and plenty of bass.


----------



## Blcws6

Man thats a little disappointing seeing as I have cut a deal for two of em for 25 bucks.


----------



## Blcws6

Riverratt...I noticed you have a Tweaker in ur arsenal. I do too. I was wondering what you use it to play and what kinda tubes ur running. Im a little disappointed with my tweaker.


----------



## johnfv

Blcws6 said:


> ...a little disappointing...


Perhaps you just need a nice Fender to go with those tubes! 

Variety is the spice of life. Don't get me wrong, if I had to pick one amp it would be a Marshall but like I said: variety is the spice of life!


----------



## johnfv

Blcws6 said:


> ...disappointed with my tweaker.


I have one also (guess I need to update my signature). I got it largely based on Alan's advice (that I respect greatly). IMO where the Tweaker really rocks is in the Fenderish "semi clean" tones. A "Marshall" will be a better crunch amp...


----------



## Blcws6

I agree with you there. I got the tweaker hoping I could drive it with an OD to get the rock tones I wanted but it just never sounded right so I went lookin for a Marshall and I love my 401!! The tweaker just sits in the corner....for now


----------



## Blcws6

Ive just convinced the seller to post a buy it now price for 25 bucks on these two tubes (RCA Black plates). Would any of yall pull the trigger on this?


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

Any idea on what these are? EI's? Mullards? They have seams in the glass at the top, dates are 65 and 67.











Both sets look to be the same tooling. But one set of screens reads "Made in Holland" the other reads "Gt Britain". 

Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

Blcws6 said:


> Riverratt...I noticed you have a Tweaker in ur arsenal. I do too. I was wondering what you use it to play and what kinda tubes ur running. Im a little disappointed with my tweaker.



I haven't run stock power tubes in my Tweaker since the second or third day after I got it. I have an old set of Tung-Sol 5881s that are killer in it, but my absolute favorite tube in it is the old 1970's Russian 6P3S tubes (in Cyrillic it looks like 6n3C). They sound huge in this amp. You can find them on eBay for $10 a pair easily. Mine have a really wide base and I had to stretch out the tube retainers a bit, but it's worth it. Some of those have the small coin bases - I can't speak for the tone of those but mine date from 1978 and they are the shit. EL34s also sound really good in it, but for some reason 6L6s didn't do it for me. I can't remember what I'm running in the preamp... I think it's a Matsushita in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. I left the effects loop driver tube stock.

I really never found a bad tone in mine - I guess I'm lucky. I don't think the Vox setting is especially accurate, but I get some decent Fender and Marshall tones out of it. What cab are you running yours through? I'm using a Marshall 1966 2x12 with well-worn G12T75s in it and love it.

Of course, the best part about the tone comes from running a R8 Les Paul into the front end


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Any idea on what these are? EI's? Mullards? They have seams in the glass at the top, dates are 65 and 67.
> 
> Both sets look to be the same tooling. But one set of screens reads "Made in Holland" the other reads "Gt Britain".
> 
> Thanks!



Looks like you got an Amperex and a Mullard. Enjoy!


----------



## RiverRatt

Blcws6 said:


> Ive just convinced the seller to post a buy it now price for 25 bucks on these two tubes (RCA Black plates). Would any of yall pull the trigger on this?



That's not a bad price and they aren't bad tubes. I may have given you the wrong impression - they are still very nice tubes and are worth having in your collection. Back near the start of the thread me and Joe were exchanging ideas about RCAs and we came to the same conclusions tone-wise, but everybody hears things differently. At that price, they are still as cheap as current production and even if you don't like the tone in V1 they would make excellent cathode follower or phase inverter tubes.


----------



## MM54

I have an old black-plate RCA, they're nice, go for it man


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Looks like you got an Amperex and a Mullard. Enjoy!



Thanks for the help Brother!!!


----------



## GreaserMatt

Blcws6 said:


> Man thats a little disappointing seeing as I have cut a deal for two of em for 25 bucks.


 
Keep them to put in that blackface fender bassman you've always wanted... you know you want to! LOL


----------



## GreaserMatt

Inkalen said:


> Hi GreaserMatt
> On the previous page you said your tubes with red lettering looked like the JJ Solarburn showed, but from your pictures I do not think that conclusion is fully correct. Although it is a bit hard to spot, I think I see a triple mica and plate structure that matches a Shuguang Chinese tube. So my guess is they are a slightly older version of Chinese Shuguangs. In my opinion not a particularly great tube, and neither are the Sovteks, so the wonderful news is that you have a lot of room for sound improvement


 

I think you're right; they actually look a lot like this:

Shuguang 12AT7

with the 'made in china' sticker removed... buying new tube for old amps is fun! I actually have a few groovetube 12AX7/EEC83's layingaround; how would they sound in an 800???


----------



## solarburn

Yeah matt they're just Chinese tubes. I was just putting up a pic of a JJ for you to compare to. Some Chinese sound good though and there are a few built with more gain or less and quieter depending on what you want and what marketing tells you hehe. By the way I don't like JJ83S's. Flat and dull to my ears when used as a high gain kit...in all spots. Yuck!


I just never use all of one kind cause I like to tune with V1 & V2 if using my DSL and it really doesn't matter what goes in V3 & the PI unless I'm splitting hairs...and sometimes I do when it comes to feel of tone. I will use the PI to fine tune with at times. I'm talking very subtle changes in tone here hehe.


----------



## solarburn

GreaserMatt said:


> I think you're right; they actually look a lot like this:
> 
> Shuguang 12AT7
> 
> with the 'made in china' sticker removed... buying new tube for old amps is fun! I actually have a few groovetube 12AX7/EEC83's layingaround; how would they sound in an 800???



Like Chinese 12AX7's...


----------



## GreaserMatt

^^^ D'oh! LOL Yeah, no point in putting them in then... I'll just save 'em for one of my fenders...

Yeah, the 800 sounds fine as it is; someone said they don't like those sovteks in the V1... I may try to put something else in there just for fun...


----------



## Blcws6

Two Raytheon Black Plates in the mail!! Cant wait to hear what they sound like!


----------



## solarburn

GreaserMatt said:


> ^^^ D'oh! LOL Yeah, no point in putting them in then... I'll just save 'em for one of my fenders...
> 
> Yeah, the 800 sounds fine as it is; someone said they don't like those sovteks in the V1... I may try to put something else in there just for fun...



Oh man I hate Sovtecs haha! I think the LPS though in the PI is fine and really does well there. The other Sovtec preamp tubes...noooooooo! Stiff/sterile lil' bastards.


----------



## solarburn

Blcws6 said:


> Two Raytheon Black Plates in the mail!! Cant wait to hear what they sound like!



I really liked these in V2 of the DSL. And they went so well with a good V1 tube. It was like the killer one two punch. A few of us used a Telefunken in V1 and then the BP in V2. I used it always in V2 with a few different good tubes in V1 and it always sounded great! 

Enjoy!


----------



## solarburn

Marty that Lorenz you sold me is still one of my very favorite V1 in all my amps. Remember that D getter RCA you sold me not too long ago well I've got it in the PI of the NT and the 2 together sound great! Articulate and toneful. I rolled quite a few different combinations of preamp tubes and settled on them. I mean quite a few known good tubes and those really got me in a good place.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blcws6 said:


> Two Raytheon Black Plates in the mail!! Cant wait to hear what they sound like!



Black Plates are my number one V2 tube in a DSL/TSL. Also, the Black Plate is good in the tone stack/cathode follower slot as well, behind the V1 gain stage.

A Black Plate in V1 is more of a pronounced midrange sounding tube. There is nothing wrong with running a Black Plate in V1 if that is the tone you are after.


----------



## MartyStrat54

GreaserMatt said:


> ^^^ D'oh! LOL Yeah, no point in putting them in then... I'll just save 'em for one of my fenders...
> 
> Yeah, the 800 sounds fine as it is; someone said they don't like those sovteks in the V1... I may try to put something else in there just for fun...



Don't like the Sovteks at all. They work in the PI if the heater filament doesn't burn up.

Sonically, they are like damp cardboard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty that Lorenz you sold me is still one of my very favorite V1 in all my amps. Remember that D getter RCA you sold me not too long ago well I've got it in the PI of the NT and the 2 together sound great! Articulate and toneful. I rolled quite a few different combinations of preamp tubes and settled on them. I mean quite a few known good tubes and those really got me in a good place.



Yeah they are a really sweet tubes. Sort of hard to come across. I might have one in my inventory. I've never gotten any from a US seller, it was always an overseas seller. Anyway, glad you like it. It should have a lot of good life in it.


----------



## Inkalen

I thought Lorentz was mostly relabelled tubes from Philips Holland. Seen some SEL Lorentz as well as some ITT Lorentz - any difference ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lorenz is German made.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I sold an ELL80 Lorenz on eBay and it brought more than I expected. It's a dual power pentode - push/pull with only 1 tube and about the size of an EL84. Apparently they were a popular tube in some hi-fi amps.


----------



## Inkalen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Lorenz is German made.



I have 4 Lorenz 12AX7 tubes that I bought some time ago. 2 are Brimar (box plates), 1 is a Siemens (not equal sign) and the last a Philips Holland (delta). Done a bit of bidding on a couple of SEL Lorenz lately and all have been Holland (delta) tubes. Therefore I thought Lorenz was only relabelled tubes.

Searching the net a bit it appears there was a Lorenz Stuttgart factory once. Are they particularly good and how do you recognize the original Lorenz?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> I have 4 Lorenz 12AX7 tubes that I bought some time ago. 2 are Brimar (box plates), 1 is a Siemens (not equal sign) and the last a Philips Holland (delta). Done a bit of bidding on a couple of SEL Lorenz lately and all have been Holland (delta) tubes. Therefore I thought Lorenz was only relabelled tubes.
> 
> Searching the net a bit it appears there was a Lorenz Stuttgart factory once. Are they particularly good and how do you recognize the original Lorenz?



Hold on i will dig out a link to a guide to Lorenz, as a side note I have a GE labelled valve, that is cyually made by lorenz in germany, that also says made in Italy on it, how confusing is that? 
The one i have has very distinctive silver supprts on the plates, like the one shown in the links below.

Scroll down to the bottom part

Tube Classics


----------



## RiverRatt

The tube on the bottom right of that page isn't a Lorenz. That's a Tungsram.


----------



## Inkalen

I promised some pictures of my Tesla E83CC. I deliberately tried to take some shots where the double support getter and the "hole" between the two triodes are easily visible. Very important when distinguishing the real old Tesla’s from JJ fakes. The Roznov factory (32) ones are supposed to be a little better than the Trinec factory (37) ones, although I think the difference is hard to tell. Prices seem to be soaring for these at the moment, particularly the ones with gold plated pins.


----------



## solarburn

I work'n on getting up a pic of mine but here is a pic from the internets...










It has a ring getter with 2 supports. 502 502 made in Germany on one side and then Lorenz ECC83 on the other. Ribbed plates. Also a 39 engraved in the butt.(Where Funkens put their diamond)


----------



## Inkalen

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I work'n on getting up a pic of mine but here is a pic from the internets...
> 
> It has a ring getter with 2 supports. 502 502 made in Germany on one side and then Lorenz ECC83 on the other. Ribbed plates. Also a 39 engraved in the butt.(Where Funkens put their diamond)



Double support getter, shark tooth plate endings (chrome ?) - I would think Siemens - of course you did look for etched codes right


----------



## RiverRatt

I think you're right. Those look just like my Siemens and Halske.


----------



## solarburn

Inkalen said:


> Double support getter, shark tooth plate endings (chrome ?) - I would think Siemens - of course you did look for etched codes right



I just woke up and now I'm off to work. Those 3 above in the pic are Siemens. I'll get a better look at my tube in the morn. I'm think'n mine is Siemens too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lorenz made their own tubes, but later started to relabel tubes. The link provided states it is "similar" to an S and H, but it does not say it is an S and H.

Like a lot of tube makers, they started relabeling tubes of lesser quality. I believe most of the "ITT" was East German quality.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Rare tubes in the USA. The early Stuttgart German made Lorenz tubes are similar to the best Telefunken.


.


----------



## solarburn

Well whatever it is its a stellar tube. I'll take this Lorenz over my Telefunkens, Mini Watts, Shitas, RFTs, Mullards and BELS for a V1 slot in all 3 of my tubers. Marty if you get another one or have a good one I'm your Huckleberry!


----------



## Blcws6

any idea how to get pictures in here so you guys and help me identify a tube? All the pictures I took are too large (filesize wise) to put in here i think.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Blcws6 said:


> any idea how to get pictures in here so you guys and help me identify a tube? All the pictures I took are too large (filesize wise) to put in here i think.



Best way is to upload them to your profile album. Then copy the BB code (listed below the pic after you select it) and paste it in the post.


----------



## Blcws6

Ok heres what I got, can you guys figure out what this is?


----------



## Blcws6

Its a bigger tube than the Raytheon black plate ax7 I just got two...if that helps.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey gang,

Got a great junk store find this weekend. Two boxes of tubes marked "good" (alwasy a crap shoot) for $60.00. 






Just got done testing out the 12au7's, 12at7'a and 12ax7's, only two dead so far (GE and an RCA). Some real jems in there, including a Mullard Master 10m gold pin.


----------



## johnfv

Got my Ceriatone 2204 HW amp today, put the Mullard in V1 and the Black Plate in V2. Sounds great, thx Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blcws6 said:


> Its a bigger tube than the Raytheon black plate ax7 I just got two...if that helps.



Looks like a Chinese tube to me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Johnfv-nice amp and guitars.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey gang,
> 
> Got a great junk store find this weekend. Two boxes of tubes marked "good" (alwasy a crap shoot) for $60.00.
> 
> Some real jems in there, including a Mullard Master 10m gold pin.



The 10M is worth the price as long as it has some life left in it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey gang,
> 
> Got a great junk store find this weekend. Two boxes of tubes marked "good" (alwasy a crap shoot) for $60.00.
> 
> Just got done testing out the 12au7's, 12at7'a and 12ax7's, only two dead so far (GE and an RCA). Some real jems in there, including a Mullard Master 10m gold pin.



Very cool. Any other interesting numbers in there? Every time I find a tube box, it's all junky TV tubes. If you run across any 5881s in there.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you see the member that had the NIB Tung-Sol 5881's for sale? He said, "Make me an offer." 

"How about $35 for the pair?"


----------



## RiverRatt

I did see that. Unfortunately, that's about all I could offer. I'd love to have an extra pair or two, though.


----------



## MM54

Traded a box-plate GE straight up for a blackplate RCA today


----------



## RiverRatt

Did I miss something in the old RCA black plates? It's been a long time since I tried one. I do have some Sylvania JHS black plates and a couple of old military GE's and Tung-Sols. I know that the JRP-Raytheons are different from the regular black plates. I may have to give all those guys a fair try again. I think the JRP is a fine sounding tube, but the ones I've had are ridiculously high-gain. They can make a decent V2 tube in the DSL, but they are really hot. 

How do you think the RCA black plates stack up against the gray plates? I always thought they were the cat's ass in Fender amps but not so great in Marshalls.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Very cool. Any other interesting numbers in there? Every time I find a tube box, it's all junky TV tubes. If you run across any 5881s in there.....



Nope! Sorry Brother, not a lot in the way of power tubes. Some 6v6s a few 5u4 rectifiers, and like you mentioned a bunch of hifi power tubes. The keepers in this bunch are all preamp tubes. Sylvania, Mullards, Magnavox, GE, RCA, Ken Rad, Packard Bell, and some USAF labeled that I cant make out the manufacturer on. I have seen plenty of JAN's in my time but never a USAF tube.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Did I miss something in the old RCA black plates? It's been a long time since I tried one. I do have some Sylvania JHS black plates and a couple of old military GE's and Tung-Sols. I know that the JRP-Raytheons are different from the regular black plates. I may have to give all those guys a fair try again. I think the JRP is a fine sounding tube, but the ones I've had are ridiculously high-gain. They can make a decent V2 tube in the DSL, but they are really hot.
> 
> How do you think the RCA black plates stack up against the gray plates? I always thought they were the cat's ass in Fender amps but not so great in Marshalls.



I like the back plates in some amps, less in others. They definitely seem a bit darker to my ears than the gray plates. Over all I am very fond of them, and of RCA's in general. I like the "hair" they bring to some amps. Kind of a sweet grit that is nice for a crunch over driven sound. I'd say give them another try.


----------



## pete3006

Have been reading up quite a lot here, and as I blew one of my power tubes, I decided to go with 2 complete sets.

Power tubes I have gone for JJ KT77's and pre-amp tubes I have gone for 
EH 5157 gold
Tung Sol 12AX7 9-pin for the V1 

and I have found on ebay US 2 "matched" 1960-ish GE 12AX7 for $25 incl postage, so can;t wait for them to arrive


----------



## Inkalen

Marty, I have a question that I think only you can answer! If you care to take a look at this auction:

ECC83 12AX7 Philips Miniwatts heavy soldering match x2 on eBay (end time 14-Apr-11 14:39:38 BST)

The guy talks about these particular tubes being special due to heavy soldering - having no idea what he was talking about I asked him to explain further, and here is his reply:

Heavy soldering means the solder that you see between the pins and the inner pins which are selaed and have solder to protect from vacuum to fade

Ehhh - I still have a feeling this is sort of a late April fools day story - is there really any solder along the pins ?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Marty, I have a question that I think only you can answer! If you care to take a look at this auction:
> 
> ECC83 12AX7 Philips Miniwatts heavy soldering match x2 on eBay (end time 14-Apr-11 14:39:38 BST)
> 
> The guy talks about these particular tubes being special due to heavy soldering - having no idea what he was talking about I asked him to explain further, and here is his reply:
> 
> Heavy soldering means the solder that you see between the pins and the inner pins which are selaed and have solder to protect from vacuum to fade
> 
> Ehhh - I still have a feeling this is sort of a late April fools day story - is there really any solder along the pins ?



link does not work, got the auction number?


----------



## Inkalen

Think it is 300545119169


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Just picked this up, hard to tell from the auction what it was, i guessed it was either a Brimar long blackplate, or a Raytheon long blackplate, turned out to be a Sylvania long blackplate with a windmill getter and copper grid posts. Anyone come across these or using them? 

Also picked up another half box anode brimar recently for next to nothing, thank godness for bad pcitures and scant descriptions!

Heres a picture of the Sylvania.


----------



## Inkalen

Blcws6 said:


> Ok heres what I got, can you guys figure out what this is?



Hey Blcws6,
As Marty said these are Chinese tubes from Shuguang and this version with chrome plates is called Silver Dragon 
Have not seen them with the double support getter before, perhaps some years old!?

A couple of people were saying they really like these due to the high gain a few days ago in this very thread, but I think you will find the majority search elsewhere when they are trying to tweak the sound of their amps.


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just picked this up, hard to tell from the auction what it was, i guessed it was either a Brimar long blackplate, or a Raytheon long blackplate, turned out to be a Sylvania long blackplate with a windmill getter and copper grid posts. Anyone come across these or using them?
> 
> Also picked up another half box anode brimar recently for next to nothing, thank godness for bad pcitures and scant descriptions!


Hi Spirit,
Seen a fair number of these Sylvanias in US ebay auctions, but never really gone all in to get them. The regulars in this thread always seemed to prefer the Raytheon black plates to the other black plates from RCA and Sylvania, so I figured my stock could do without them. Will be interesting to hear your take on the sound.

You most certainly seem to have a nack for picking up cheap tubes even very interesting ones. How do you test them though ? I have burned my fingers twice on untested Brimars recently and those were not even that cheap !


----------



## Blcws6

Thanks for the help Inkalen...I did notice a small drop in gain when I pulled this out of V2 and placed a Raytheon black plate in there instead. Im not sure what my feelings are on it yet since I havent had a chance to play above bedroom volumes with they yet. 

I wonder if my feelings will change upon cranking this bad boy? I did notice once the raytheon was in, the amp seemed to be a tad bit punchier. What are the general qualities of a good Raytheon black plate anyways?


----------



## RiverRatt

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just picked this up, hard to tell from the auction what it was, i guessed it was either a Brimar long blackplate, or a Raytheon long blackplate, turned out to be a Sylvania long blackplate with a windmill getter and copper grid posts. Anyone come across these or using them?



It looks like those Sylvania JHS-12AX7s I got awhile back. I sent one to Josh, Joe and Marty for past favors. I haven't heard a tone report back from them, but in my experience they aren't bad. Like a lot of military spec tubes these all seemed strong but a little dull tone-wise.


----------



## MM54

Here's a tube-related but not really preamp tube-related question.

I was testing a set of tubes for an old Tube reciever for a stereo, and one of them is a mystery to me.

The only etching is "50F" and there's a small etch that looks like < and some numbers. On the bottom in the middle of all the pins there's a C. There are 4 seams on the top like a Phillips tube, and the little etching makes me think maybe a Mullard? Here's the most confusing part - it's in a typical 12AX7-sized noval bulb, but in the middle the glass seems to narrow down just a little, as if distorted. Any idea on what it is? I'm out of town until Sunday night, so no pictures until then


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It looks like those Sylvania JHS-12AX7s I got awhile back. I sent one to Josh, Joe and Marty for past favors. I haven't heard a tone report back from them, but in my experience they aren't bad. Like a lot of military spec tubes these all seemed strong but a little dull tone-wise.



Been putting them in the PI slot and they are good. Haven't tried in a V1 yet because I've been doing others there. I'll try one in V1 soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think you will find that the PI slot is where it belongs.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think you will find that the PI slot is where it belongs.



Thats good to know, so all blackplates are not created equal.


----------



## Inkalen

MM54 said:


> Here's a tube-related but not really preamp tube-related question.
> 
> I was testing a set of tubes for an old Tube reciever for a stereo, and one of them is a mystery to me.
> 
> The only etching is "50F" and there's a small etch that looks like < and some numbers. On the bottom in the middle of all the pins there's a C. There are 4 seams on the top like a Phillips tube, and the little etching makes me think maybe a Mullard? Here's the most confusing part - it's in a typical 12AX7-sized noval bulb, but in the middle the glass seems to narrow down just a little, as if distorted. Any idea on what it is? I'm out of town until Sunday night, so no pictures until then



Pinched Waist - like beautiful ladies 
Know Amperex made pinched waist tubes at some point, they made a 6DJ8 that was supposed to be really good !


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone heard from Josh? He's been absent a fairly long time.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think you will find that the PI slot is where it belongs.



Yeah I don't expect it to be a "tone" tube but I don't know how it sounds in a tone slot so I can't comment. originally that's where Alan was running them too and I agree they make a good PI tube.

Is there any BP as good as a Raytheon BP? Best V2 I ever had in the DSL. 1/2 punch.


----------



## RiverRatt

What's strange is, all those USA tubes that sound dull in a Marshall circuit seem to come to life in a Fender amp. Conversely, I don't like European/Philips tubes so much in a Fender amp. IMO they are usually too bright.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I have said in the past, MIL-SPEC audio tubes don't necessarily have superior tone. The early 12AX7WA's are the best. They were basically hand picked tubes that tested extremely well. Later, the military demanded tougher tubes, because the planes were subjecting them to more G forces. This required the tubes to be built "stiffer." Late versions of military tubes are not very good in V1. Can you use them? Yes. Will they sound different in different amps? Yes. To me, they tend to be a little on the muddy side.

BLACK PLATES-Yes, not all black plates are created equal. I really do not like the RCA black plate. Sylvania's (when good) do not do that much for me. The clear winner is the Raytheon. It is simply the best and mates with a wide variety of V1 tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I agree, with the exception of the Raytheon JRP. If you want to kick the lead channel on a DSL in the ass, a hot JRP in V2 does it for me. I'd definitely recommend it over a 12BZ7. I know it's a little over-the-top for some folks, but it has its own tone and it ain't bad. I ran one in V1 and V2 of the DSL for awhile and it was raunchy. Pinch harmonics for days. If you're into the Billy Gibbons + Les Paul tone, I think it comes pretty close.


----------



## sccloser

bought 6 NOS 12ax7's from a buddy today. He had a good many and offered to sell me a few. 

ALL USA!

They are all in white boxes marked JAN with the Manufacturers and the dates.

I got 2 Sylvanias a '68 and a '70
two RCA's 1 12ax7 and 1 7025, can' t make out the dates
One Tung-Sol 1964
One Raytheon 1962

I tried them out in V1 in my DSL 401 tonight. I seem to like the RCA's and the Sylvanias. They give some good edge to the ryhyhm sounds. The Tung Sol and Raytheon seem smoother, better for leads. 

All sound better to me than the JJ I have in V1, but comparatively speeking the JJ is not too bad.

I'll try them out in my 2205 and the 2500 mkiii this weekend.

Any ideas on placement in those amps?


----------



## RiverRatt

Out of all those, the Raytheon is the only real tone tube. See if your friend has any Philips tubes - they are easy to identify by the seams on the top. Any of those will sound better in V1 of your Marshalls than the US tubes. Matsushitas and Ei's are good tubes to get started with - you can find them pretty cheap on eBay if you shop awhile and they are great sounding tubes. PM Marty on here and see if he has anything in his stock - he can fix you up with some killer tubes, too.


----------



## sccloser

He didn't have any Phillips. Mostly sylvania. I got the only tung sol and raytheon that he had.

I went into an older music store today while I was in my home town visiting. I found a Tungsram (Hungary), an Amperex (W. Germany) and an RCA (Breat Britain). Got them pretty cheap. All NOS. 

Any idea on these?

I found a Korean made Realistic tube that I pulled out of another amp once. Any thoughts on that one?


Also, I tried a 1970 Sylvania and a 80's RCA in the v1 of the DSL401 and I liked them for rhythm. Had a lot of edge to them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> He didn't have any Phillips. Mostly sylvania. I got the only tung sol and raytheon that he had.
> 
> I went into an older music store today while I was in my home town visiting. I found a Tungsram (Hungary), an Amperex (W. Germany) and an RCA (Breat Britain). Got them pretty cheap. All NOS.
> 
> Any idea on these?
> 
> I found a Korean made Realistic tube that I pulled out of another amp once. Any thoughts on that one?
> 
> 
> Also, I tried a 1970 Sylvania and a 80's RCA in the v1 of the DSL401 and I liked them for rhythm. Had a lot of edge to them.



If the Amperex was made in West Germany, it is most likely a VALVO. If it has a slant getter, these are highly desirable. Does the RCA have smooth or ribbed plates? If smooth, probably and Ei. If ribbed, more than likely a Mullard. The Tungsrams are okay, but most of the time they are lopsided and generally are high gain. They make a great PI tube.


----------



## sccloser

The RCA has ribbed plates. The Amperex has what looks like a little wire ring halo, and it is slanted a bit. Is that what you are referring to as a slanted getter?


----------



## RiverRatt

The getter will be tilted at a 45° angle.


----------



## sccloser

Hmm. The little ring in mine is slanted at about 30 degrees max.

Tested some tubes in the mkiii tonight. The Sylvanias and RCA's that sounded so good in the dsl 401 did not sound as good in the mkiii's v1. The Amperex, the RCA (mullard), the Raytheon and the CP Tung-Sol sounded best in the 900's v1. In fact, the Amperex was probably the best to my ears, but the CP Tung-sol was surprisingly good. The Tungsram was quite good as well.

I was running a cp sovtek in v2 and a 1968 JAN-Sylvania in the PI. PT's are JJ's.


----------



## MM54

Does anyone know what the hell this tube is? I can't find, well, anything on it. Note how the glass gets narrower in the middle.

Links below the pictures are links to much larger, better quality versions of the pictures.





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Side-1.jpg





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Side-2.jpg





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Top-1.jpg





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Bottom-1.jpg





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Side-3.jpg





http://www.mm54.net/tube-imgs/Mystery 50F/Side-4.jpg


----------



## Inkalen

Hey MM54,

Philips factory, D getter (?), pinched waist, frame grid constuction...

Pretty sure that is an Amperex 6922/6DJ8/E88CC style pinched waist tube. Check to see:

https://www.tubeworld.com/6922.htm
6DJ8 Tubes From Brent Jessee Recording


----------



## MM54

Wow, any way to confirm it being a 6922? They sound popular.

I've found a faint etching on the glass around the lower mica that is a right triangle, and then 6L. Maybe that'll help a little?


----------



## RiverRatt

Triangle = Amperex factory. I have no idea about the 6922. If I had a little motivation I'd get into my tube bin and see if I have one, but right now I feel like crawling into a whiskey bottle. Been a rough week or two around here.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Triangle = Amperex factory. I have no idea about the 6922. If I had a little motivation I'd get into my tube bin and see if I have one, but right now I feel like crawling into a whiskey bottle. Been a rough week or two around here.



Have you found your way out of the bottle yet RR ? Sounds like a rough one - hope you had a decent single malt to dive into !
Hint: Don't work on your home made amps while working on a whiskey bottle at the same time - that can be quite rough also !!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Have you found your way out of the bottle yet RR ? Sounds like a rough one - hope you had a decent single malt to dive into !
> Hint: Don't work on your home made amps while working on a whiskey bottle at the same time - that can be quite rough also !!!



Yeah, I didn't stay in long... just had a lot of pressure building up for the last 2 or 3 weeks. There's a definite light at the end of the tunnel now. I don't lean too hard on that stuff too often anyway. You think you're immune to hangovers and then one hits you full force and you remember why you don't do that any more. 

I like good beer and good wine, but I still like cheap bourbon. Not the paint-thinner stuff, but anything mid-grade out of Tennessee or Kentucky is fine. Maybe a bottle of Jameson's once in awhile.


----------



## healaras

Hello guys i have a tsl 601 and i dont like the dirty cannels beacause i cant get enough distortion from them so is there any way to increase its distortion by swaping preamp or power amp tubes or even changing speaker and if so is there a way to turn it to a high gain amp? 

thank you very much for your help


----------



## RiverRatt

No, if you want more gain than what's on-tap, I'd suggest a boost pedal. Tubes can affect the gain a little but not like hitting the preamp with a good, hot signal.

What's your axe and what sound are you going for?


----------



## Blcws6

While running a clean boost from my Zakk Wylde boost gets me more gain, it also makes my tone a sloppy mess and wouldnt recommend it. This is with the red Channel on my DSL 401. Im betting the TSL will react in the same manner. Theres quite a bit of gain on tap there already IMO.

I will run the boost rarely when i get into some lead stuff.

RiverRatt is right the tubes will only color your sound they wont add or take away a hugely noticeable amount of gain.


----------



## Blcws6

Maybe find a good Distortion pedal to run through your clean channel for when you want more gain for things?


----------



## healaras

My style of playing is hard rock and heavy metal (ac/dc,airbourne,guns,megadeth,bls,malmsteen,iron maiden) but i'm more a heavy metal guy.What about boss sd 1 i've heard that has a warm and soft tone and it works great with marshalls


----------



## sccloser

healaras said:


> My style of playing is hard rock and heavy metal (ac/dc,airbourne,guns,megadeth,bls,malmsteen,iron maiden) but i'm more a heavy metal guy.What about boss sd 1 i've heard that has a warm and soft tone and it works great with marshalls



Seems to me you need less distortion. If I'm not mistaken most of these bands played on superleads and jmps, etc. To get good AC/DC tones, play on your clean channel and crank the gain/vol on that channel up some. I do not think you are looking for distortion, but rather tone. 

Listen closely, Maiden, Megadeth, malmsteen, AC/DC...not a huge amount of gain necessary to copy those sounds. You need punch and ability to cut through the mix, not more gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. Take a look at Malmsteen's original DiMarzio pickups. They were low output. He was pushing his Strat into a cranked Marshall.

You nailed how to get the AC/DC type "tone" from your Marshall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

healaras said:


> My style of playing is hard rock and heavy metal (ac/dc,airbourne,guns,megadeth,bls,malmsteen,iron maiden) but i'm more a heavy metal guy.What about boss sd 1 i've heard that has a warm and soft tone and it works great with marshalls



These amps love a Philips tube in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. I would recommend that you get some good used or NOS tubes in the V1 and V2 slots. 

My 602 is fully loaded with NOS tubes and 1961 JBL D-123 speakers. It's one bad ass combo.


----------



## GIBSON67

MartyStrat54 said:


> My 602 is fully loaded with NOS tubes and 1961 JBL D-123 speakers. It's one bad ass combo.



I always wanted to hear some of those speakers, are they that good?

Alum dust caps? How many watts can they take, because I would be scared of blowing them?


----------



## MartyStrat54

GIBSON67 said:


> I always wanted to hear some of those speakers, are they that good?
> 
> Alum dust caps? How many watts can they take, because I would be scared of blowing them?



Many perfectionists claim that the D123 is the finest blues/classic rock speaker out there.

They originally were rated at 30WRMS, but later this was raised to 50WRMS.

A 412 cab loaded with these would be bad ass.


----------



## GIBSON67

50 watts, that's heavy duty for a early 60's speaker! What would you compare them to?

I mean, I love rolling tubes and modifying my Strat but trying new speakers is my true passion. I 've tried most speakers that I could afford but I have never really tried any JBL's. I just didn't think that they were made for Marshalls. Maybe the Allman Bros Marshalls...


----------



## Gtarzan81

I need a couple NOS Raytheon 12ax7's. Anyone know someone?


----------



## Blcws6

Im sure Martystrat can hook you up, I know he's got a ton a tubes he's collected and likes to help people retube their amps.

I found mine on ebay got em for a bout 20 a piece (black plates).


----------



## marvin

MartyStrat54 said:


> Many perfectionists claim that the D123 is the finest blues/classic rock speaker out there.
> 
> They originally were rated at 30WRMS, but later this was raised to 50WRMS.
> 
> A 412 cab loaded with these would be bad ass.



That may have been what Clapton used with Cream. I sat on the floor 10 ft. in front of Clapton, in a small bar in Minneapolis just after Disraeli Gears came out. I could see the metal dust caps in all four of his cabs.

either JBL's or EV's.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Blcws6 said:


> Im sure Martystrat can hook you up, I know he's got a ton a tubes he's collected and likes to help people retube their amps.
> 
> I found mine on ebay got em for a bout 20 a piece (black plates).


 
Do you have a list of the dealer you got them from?


----------



## Blcws6

The guys ebay name is "*fng2u" *

*At the time I purchased them he had close to 7 or 8 of them so he still may have some. Just do an ebay search for "raytheon black plate" and see what comes up. Whats reason are you looking for Raytheons if you dont mind me asking?*


----------



## RiverRatt

Blcws6 said:


> Whats reason are you looking for Raytheons if you dont mind me asking?[/B]



You haven't read much of the thread, have you? 

A couple of years ago Marty got us to try a Raytheon black plate in V2 of our DSLs and TSLs and man, they really clean up the preamp and give it a much more classic Marshall tone on the green channel. It wasn't long before we started rolling Philips (Mullard, Amperex, Siemens, Valvo, Matsushita, etc) and Telefunken tubes in V1 with the Ray in V2. No matter what we were running in V1, it ALWAYS sounded better with the Raytheon in V2. I've got a decent stash of them built up. They aren't bad in V1 either, but a little dark. The military JRP version is a good V2 tube if you want a little more punch but they can be over-the-top gain wise.


----------



## Blcws6

No, Ive read through this thread in its almost entirety and I know why you guys suggest the raytheons, as I went out and got one for my V2 spot. I was just curious as to the reasons my man up above was looking for one.

He didnt seem to have much of a handle one how to go about finding or getting any so I assumed that maybe he might now know exaclty why he might be looking for some Raytheons as well.

As always I appreciate yalls help tho.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Blcws6 said:


> No, Ive read through this thread in its almost entirety and I know why you guys suggest the raytheons, as I went out and got one for my V2 spot. I was just curious as to the reasons my man up above was looking for one.
> 
> He didnt seem to have much of a handle one how to go about finding or getting any so I assumed that maybe he might now know exaclty why he might be looking for some Raytheons as well.
> 
> As always I appreciate yalls help tho.



To this point, I know where I can get them from someone I dont know, or some yahoo who may take me for a ride. I'd much rather ask around and get someone reputable, or get the inside track. 

I've dealt with several members on the forum here, and all have been great, and the deals done squarely. I'd like to keep it in the family.


----------



## Blcws6

Look up Martystrat54 on here he will hook you up.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Blcws6 said:


> Look up Martystrat54 on here he will hook you up.



I've bought from him before. Thanks for the lead though!


----------



## Blcws6

no worries sorry I couldnt be more help


----------



## Gtarzan81

Blcws6 said:


> no worries sorry I couldnt be more help



No worries man. We always appreciate those here willing to help.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, any conversation in here is welcome. 

I threw a Telefunken in V1 of that Fender I bought and put a Raytheon in V2. After reading some stuff about DeVilles I tried a 6189 (12AU7) for the phase inverter and it gave the amp a lot more headroom and still kept that big Fender clean. A couple of black plate 6L6GCs and that thing is sounding NICE. It's really cool to run it in stereo with the DSL. That's a really huge sound.


----------



## sccloser

I had a Raytheon blackplate that was in the v2 position of my 2205 when I bought it. The tube in the v1 went bad shortly after I got it and I put in a cp 12ax7. Recently, I put the Raytheon in the v1. I have heard many suggest the Raytheon in v2. What is the advantage of that? What would be a good tube to run in v1 with the Raython in v2?


----------



## Blcws6

I run a JAN Phillips 12ax7wa in my V1 spot and I love the tone it produces. Nice and aggressive yet smooth. Totally changed the character of my DSL 401. I tried the Raytheon in V1 as well but liked it better in V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A Raytheon Black Plate is the most sought after. For the most part, when we make reference to a "Black Plate," we are talking about a Raytheon. When a Raytheon is used in a V1 scenario, it is a smooth sounding tube that is a tad heavy on the midrange. It is these characteristics that allow it to match up to most Philips tubes which are bright by themselves. A Philips in V1 with a Raytheon BP in V2 is my biggest seller.


----------



## MM54

...

I was about to play guitar, but wasn't getting any signal. I check the tubes, and found that my 1962 Blackburn Mullard, which is pretty hot, gain-wise, CRACKED. The break goes the whole way across the base from pins 1 to 6. Fuck.


----------



## RiverRatt

Must be something in the air. A few weeks ago I had an RFT and a Sovtek crack in the same amp. Guess which one I was concerned with.


----------



## MM54

Wow, this thing is really shattered around pin 1. I picked it up and a hunk of glass fell out. I had thought there was just one too many heat/cool cycles for the glass, but it almost looks like pin 1 took quite an impact. The problem with that is that I know it didn't, it's been in that amp and working fine for a week+

Who's up for a dissection?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Something had to cause it to crack. They don't crack on their own, unless they have a weak spot in the glass. Sorry to hear it was a 62 Mullard.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, the fact that it shattered around pin 1 makes me think that the it heated up and cooled off one too many times for the glass around the metal to take. The only Mullard I have left is labeled "IEC Mullard" and I don't know what to think of that.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nothing wrong with the IEC label. I sold a GZ34 with a good IEC label for around $80 a few months ago. I've got another one that tests higher than that one, but the guide pin is broken off.


----------



## MM54

I put a random longplate GE I had laying around in V1 yesterday as a quick fix, and it sounds really, really good :eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, Marty sent me a GE that tested a little weak but sounded great in my amp. I've started running a GE in V1 and a Raytheon in V2 on my Fender amp. It's got that classic American tube tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gotta love them old GE's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I need to send you one of those red print GE's that I got last year. I'd like to see how it tests on your B&K and I'd like to hear your opinion of the tone. I got two of them and they both sound pretty sweet.

Dread got me hooked up on some mods for the Deville. I've been playing it at whisper quiet to keep from waking up the family, but so far I'm impressed. I put some old glass in it and it is sounding really good. It's probably going to be my grab-n-go amp this summer so I want it to be right. I've got a pair of old 1960's Jensens that I may give a try in it.


----------



## MM54

Does anyone have one of the re-issue Mullard 12AX7's they don't want? Even if it's dead, or really weak, or whatever. I'd like to get my hands on one so I can do an in-depth comparison of the accuracy of the reissues compared to the original (since I have a cracked I61 laying here).


----------



## Gtarzan81

MM54 said:


> Does anyone have one of the re-issue Mullard 12AX7's they don't want? Even if it's dead, or really weak, or whatever. I'd like to get my hands on one so I can do an in-depth comparison of the accuracy of the reissues compared to the original (since I have a cracked I61 laying here).



Just got one in.....Trade ya for some Yuenglings.


----------



## MM54

Gtarzan81 said:


> Just got one in.....Trade ya for some Yuenglings.



If it's new and working then my comparison would make me feel like I was wasting a good tube. Now, if you put it in your amp and the heater burns out or one of the triodes is bad or something, then we're talking


----------



## Gtarzan81

MM54 said:


> If it's new and working then my comparison would make me feel like I was wasting a good tube. Now, if you put it in your amp and the heater burns out or one of the triodes is bad or something, then we're talking



Its fair..... i didnt say how many Yuenglings


----------



## solarburn

I have one. PM your addy and I'll mail it to you. Like to hear how they compare.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I have one. PM your addy and I'll mail it to you. Like to hear how they compare.



So there's no misunderstanding - I'm looking for one that's either too weak to be useful, dead, or microphonic or something. I have a '62 Mullard that cracked the other day (and lost vacuum) sitting here, and I'm looking for one of the reissues to do a literal, internals/construction comparison. Tonally I'm sure it's been compared a million times, the physical internal comparison, I'm not so sure. It'll be interesting, and naturally I'll document it on the forum very thoroughly.


----------



## solarburn

Well Matt mines in good working condition now but you can put the hurt on it when you get it...


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well Matt mines in good working condition now but you can put the hurt on it when you get it...



Well, if you don't mind me tearing it apart (literally) [after I record it a little and compare it to my other real Mullard for the hell of it] then okay. I just want to be sure you don't expect to get it back [in one piece at least]


----------



## solarburn

No prob Matt. Keep it. It will be an interesting experiment. Just tell us what you find hehe.


----------



## MM54

Sounds good, I'll send you a PM in a minute here.


----------



## solarburn

Be sending it tomorrow prolly.


----------



## solarburn

K Matt its on the way.


----------



## MM54

thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thank you Joe for your wonderful contribution. 

Let us know how it works out, Matt.


----------



## MM54

Hey Marty, I've acquired a sleeve of NOS/NIB Mullard EL91's, a sleeve of relabeled Tung-Sol 12BY7A's, and a sleeve of some Japanese 6C4's, they all test good on my emissions tester, but I'd like a transconductance figure before I go to sell. Would you be willing to test them and a few other tubes I have laying around?


----------



## RiverRatt

3... 2... 1... it's MINE! I love it when a lowball eBay bid pays off. One more for the collection, Joe! These are my favorite V1 tube ever. Late 1950's Matsushita, Long plates, D getter, Mullard killer!


----------



## solarburn

Score! Nice grab. They know not what they sell.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, after a minor score like that, it was time for a *MAJOR SCORE!*

I'll have to get them home to find out just what I got, probably around 50 or so assorted 12AX7s, 12AU7s, 6BQ5s, there's even a pair of 7027A's and one pristine GE 6CA7!!! Sound like it was worth $40?


----------



## RiverRatt

Toob Porn:

GE 7025 & Sylvania 12AT7WA





Various 12AX7s





12AU7/6189s





Lucky 7 - GE and Sylvania black plate 5751s





A couple of unknown Philips EL84s





A bunch of USA and MIJ 6BQ5/EL84s





2 6L6Gs and a 6L6GC





RCA (Tung-Sol?) 7027As





....and last but not least, a 2 getter GE 6CA7





There were a few more oddballs - a handful of 6CG7/6FQ7s and an assortment of mini's and sub-mini's.


----------



## j2112c

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey All! I'm still a bit new to the Marshall Forum, but already I have seen quite a bit of discussion regarding the selection and operation of power amp tubes. But... I would really like to get some feed back regarding the selection of preamp tubes.
> 
> I rarely play out, and quite frankly seldom have opportunity to turn my TSL122 up past 1 or 2. I am aware of the fact that because of this, I will be getting most of my tone from my preamp section, and not from the power amp. That being the case I would like to know more about how preamp tubes effect my sound.
> 
> I play mainly classic rock ranging from AC/DC to Def Leppard. Clearly I love distorted guitar tone, but I also love the way my TSL122 sounds on the clean channel. So...
> 
> What I am hoping for is feedback from you more experienced members of the forum regarding such topics as: How will different tubes change my sound to better suit my style of playing? What tonal qualities do different preamp tubes have? What is a good starting point for finding the right tubes for me? Can I "mix-and-match" preamp tubes? How long do preamp tubes last? How often should I replace them?
> 
> Please, do share your thoughts on this subject. I am eager to know what your experiences have been. Thanks in advance for your responses!



I bet when you posted this you did not think it would an over 154,000 visit thread with over 8,000 posts over 283 pages huh?

You should be a bloody expert now Josh!:Ohno:
There is an exam on Friday to be marked by Marty... so get revising Josh.


----------



## MM54

Question 1: How many ridges are on one side of the plates of a blackburn Mullard 12AX7?
A) 1
B) 2
C) 3
D) 4


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MM54 said:


> Question 1: How many ridges are on one side of the plates of a blackburn Mullard 12AX7?
> A) 1
> B) 2
> C) 3
> D) 4



C, 3, what do i win?


----------



## MM54

You win... 





















Nothing, I never said it was a competition, just that that was the first question


----------



## RiverRatt

A quick observation... Sylvania black plate 5751s FUCKING ROCK! These are some fine sounding tubes. I'd been running a smooth plate Telefunken in V1 in my (cough) Fender, and the Sylvania blows it's ass out of the water. The GE 5751s are really good sounding, too, but the Sylvania is a couple of steps higher up the ladder.


----------



## solarburn

That's say'n alot when a 5751 boots a Funken SP haha! I want one!LOL

Its cool to see a 5751 get some praise and it looks like many of us just haven't had the pleasure of using a great one.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I just tried it in V1 on the DSL and it sounded good, but not as good as the Telefunken ECC83. It's not as dramatic a difference as using a 12AT7 and I think the tone is still there, just a little anemic. The Tele really cooks at the same settings. Go figure. I think the DSL preamp just needs a higher-gain tube in V1 to really sound right.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I just tried it in V1 on the DSL and it sounded good, but not as good as the Telefunken ECC83. It's not as dramatic a difference as using a 12AT7 and I think the tone is still there, just a little anemic. The Tele really cooks at the same settings. Go figure. I think the DSL preamp just needs a higher-gain tube in V1 to really sound right.



Yeah I agree. I tried lower gain tubes in V1 of my DSL and I didn't like it as much unless I was adding a boost with those. Now in an amp like my Monza it could be really good I think.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, from what I've heard of the Monza, it's closer to a Fender style preamp than Marshall. I think you likey


----------



## MM54

Hey Joe, the 'Mullard' came today (finally, nothing like, erm, 8-day shipping ). I'll be out all day tomorrow, but hopefully Sunday or Monday I'll get to the experiment


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Hey Joe, the 'Mullard' came today (finally, nothing like, erm, 8-day shipping ). I'll be out all day tomorrow, but hopefully Sunday or Monday I'll get to the experiment


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Matt, what's this CA10 amp I'm hearing about?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Matt, what's this CA10 amp I'm hearing about?



From my as of yet un-finished website:
"Still in development, the CA10 is a 10W, Class-A operating all-valve amp. It will feature a british-voiced preamp featuring two 12AX7's, Treble/Middle/Bass tonestack, and gain control. The power section is a single-ended Class-A EL34/6CA7. With no master volume, the CA10 is designed to be cranked. When volume is an issue, however, the internal attenuator is able to bring the overdriven tone down to a whisper."

Basically it's like a Class5, but it's a head, runs an EL34, 6L6, or (presumably, I haven't any to test it out) KT88. Output should be around 10 watts, I've not had the chance to measure it yet. The prototype circuit and everything is done, I just need to finish the headbox and get a final price total before I'll be taking a few orders from people on the forum (and hopefully, eventually, other people).

It sounds good, too


----------



## solarburn

Looking forward to hearing this.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it sounds like a cool project. Put some soundclips on here when you get a chance. I was thinking about ditching that single GE 6CA7 I got. I might wait awhile now. Do you have a price in mind yet?


----------



## kennyramjam

RiverRatt said:


> A quick observation... Sylvania black plate 5751s FUCKING ROCK! These are some fine sounding tubes. I'd been running a smooth plate Telefunken in V1 in my (cough) Fender, and the Sylvania blows it's ass out of the water. The GE 5751s are really good sounding, too, but the Sylvania is a couple of steps higher up the ladder.


 
Hi. I'm a junior member on the forum who owns a 1981 JMP 2104 and
have a question about preamp tubes. I was recently in an electronics
supply store in Kalamazoo, Michigan and the owner had a bunch of
Panasonic 12AX7's which were new stock from the mid 70's. Does
anyone know how these tubes sound as pre-amp tubes in a 50W
2104 Marshall?


----------



## solarburn

You'll have to pop them in to find out how they sound. Others here may be able to tell you how they sound in their amps as well as other info but bottom line is how do they sound in your amp. The other thing is how strong are they and has this guy tested them. He may know and he may tell you hell if I know hehe. If it was me I would just try one in V1 to see. How much is he asking for them?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, it sounds like a cool project. Put some soundclips on here when you get a chance. I was thinking about ditching that single GE 6CA7 I got. I might wait awhile now. Do you have a price in mind yet?



I'll definitely be posting a bunch of clips soon. As for a price, as of now, I'm thinking the forum-price is going to be hovering around 600 + shipping. That shaves my labor/profit pretty thin, but since it's you guys it's cool. The total-stranger-MSRP will probably be closer to 750


----------



## RiverRatt

kennyramjam said:


> Hi. I'm a junior member on the forum who owns a 1981 JMP 2104 and
> have a question about preamp tubes. I was recently in an electronics
> supply store in Kalamazoo, Michigan and the owner had a bunch of
> Panasonic 12AX7's which were new stock from the mid 70's. Does
> anyone know how these tubes sound as pre-amp tubes in a 50W
> 2104 Marshall?



There's no way to know who made them. If they are MIJ and from the mid 1970's they could be Matsushita halo getters, or Hitachi or Toshiba. If there's any way you could post a photo of one, we can probably identify it.


----------



## solarburn

Alan clean out some PM storage. Won't let me PM you hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Hey I found some time to mess around with the 5751. I put it in the NT and let it rip! Very nice clarity/articulation when overdriven and nice dynamics. Roll off is very easy to reach clean to early break up and then max guitar volume it and it has plenty of saturation. Course I mean OD saturation. I really don't go high gain...much. 

I was using the NT's bright voicing with amp gain at 3pm and volume 3pm in 7.5watt mode. Great sweet spot there with the mix of preamp gain and power tube break up and still reach cleans easily. Boost it and wow it punches with a nice bit of thickening. Both ways the roll off to clean is excellent.

Got some nice over tones and harmonics as I dug in or eased up on my pick attack. That's what I really like when a tube and amp mix well. Also it blended well with my TOD pedal. Same pick dynamics happened with it too.

I'd keep it in the NT but I like the RFT in V1 and the D getter RCA in V2(PI). The RFT gives it this meat tone to the saturation I really like that my other tubes won't. So for now the 5751 is destined for V1 of the Monza although it brings great characteristics to the NT as well. It won't be dismissed. I felt its magic there too.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry about that. It should be receiving now.

Glad you're diggin the tube, and glad you got to try it before tomorrow  

I thought it was a very musical sounding tube. Not quite as aggressive as a 12AX7, but it definitely has some tone to it. I had about the best strat tone I've ever had going awhile ago. I had the Hot Rod Deville and Tweaker/2x12 coming off my stereo chorus pedal, and I ran another cable out of my tuner's bypass jack and ran that into the DSL. Holy crap, what a tone! I was boosting that Electra boost I found with the SHO clone I built and it was unbelievable! Tons of smooth sustain.


----------



## solarburn

Its a nice one and a cool change from the usual. Way better than the turd 5751 I had before. That thing was sterile and no bounce. 

Shit man you had an "orgy" of tone with all them amps run'n together.


----------



## RiverRatt

Closest I'll ever come to one.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Having just got the jcm 900 2101 combo, ive found that the preamp has almost no headroom before it starts to go into distortion. So I tried a 12at7 and a 12au7 in v1 and this had a major impact on the levels of drive.

Obvoiusly with the 12au7 I could turn the pre amp pot almost to 10 before i got any kind of distortion going on, this was great except i lost a lot of volume, with the 12at7 i could turn the pre amp maybe 1 or 2 more with a 12ax7 before the distorion kicked in, which was better but not quite enough celan headroom, so i think im going to get a 12ay7 and pop this in as it sounds just about right in terms of gain/volume.

I have kept the 12at7 in for now, but its not ideal as its not normally held in much estemm as a pre amp valve, but for now i can get the sounds im after, which is just on the dirty side of clean, so i can use my overdrive pedals for my crunch and lead sounds.

Dont suppose anyone in the UK has one they could put my way for test purposes ? , I could always swap for a nice 12ax7!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just got back from a 10 day vacation. It was so fun, I'm looking to go out to Phoenix and Las Vegas for a couple of weeks. 

Carry on.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome back! 

I was wondering when I posted a picture of 40+ old tubes and didn't get a response! Now Joe's off having surgery and Josh is AWOL. I gave Joe some incentive to get his ass up and playing. I sent him one of those Sylvania 5751s to try in his Monza as soon as he's able. Those were a great score and some of the best tone tubes I've heard. If only they sounded as good in the DSL...

BTW, what is this "vacation" thing you speak of? I seem to remember the word from a time before work and children. At least we're taking Monday off. Maybe we'll go down to the river and cook some burgers and bratwurst and catch a fish or throw rocks or something.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, I just found a nice Sylvania 6EU7 if anybody has a Gibson amp that uses them. It's basically a 12AX7 with a different pinout. PM me if any of you need one.

I'm running all Sylvania tubes in the Hot Rod Deluxe now and it's sounding really, really good! I have the Sylvania 5751 in V1, a black plate JHS-12AX7 in V2 and a green label 12AX7 in V3. To add icing on the cake, I have a sweet pair of Sylvania 6L6GCs in the power section. They will only bias up to around 35mV but they sound better than my RCAs and other blackplates.


----------



## MM54

Welcome back Marty! I wondered where you went 

Bump!


MM54 said:


> Hey Marty, I've acquired a sleeve of NOS/NIB Mullard EL91's, a sleeve of relabeled Tung-Sol 12BY7A's, and a sleeve of some Japanese 6C4's, they all test good on my emissions tester, but I'd like a transconductance figure before I go to sell. Would you be willing to test them and a few other tubes I have laying around?


----------



## Jethro Rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I'm running all Sylvania tubes in the Hot Rod Deluxe now and it's sounding really, really good! I have the Sylvania 5751 in V1, a black plate JHS-12AX7 in V2 and a green label 12AX7 in V3. To add icing on the cake, I have a sweet pair of Sylvania 6L6GCs in the power section. They will only bias up to around 35mV but they sound better than my RCAs and other blackplates.


 
I'm currently using an old RCA long black plate in V1, a philips in V2 and long plate Sylvania in V3 of my TSL - tamed down the harshness, and, man, such great smooth distortion! The lead channel is on the verge of losing control to feedback with the Sylvania - face melting fun!!!! Love it!
Cheers!


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Hey fellas.

I pulled this little guy out of me 1987x and I was wondering what it was. Here are a few pictures:











There is no "trade" name on it at all. Any of you guys see one of these before?


----------



## RiverRatt

It looks like a silver plate Ei.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Thanks dude. Are these still available? I swapped it out for my extra EH 12ax7 that I had and was surprised at the difference. That one I pulled was quite a bit smoother.


----------



## RiverRatt

You'll have to get them from a NOS dealer or eBay. They ceased production around 2003 or so. Until then they were Marshall's supplier of ECC83s. They were a Philips company based in Yugoslavia, the same parent company as Mullard, Valvo, Amperex, and many others. They also bought the Telefunken equipment when they quit production, so their ECC83 leans a little in that direction. They have similar qualities as a smooth plate Telefunken but aren't nearly as hi-fi as the Tele. A lot of people think that the pre-war Yugoslavia tubes are the best. I've had both and they all have a really nice sound in a Marshall.

I'm completely out of them right now, but the last ones I had were from the early 1970's and were re-labeled as Westinghouse. The eBay seller thought they were Japanese tubes. I got two of them for like $15.


----------



## DSL100 Dude

Aww, heck yeah! That is just downright sweet. Awesome score.

Thanks again.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, you back among the living yet? We gotta get you and Marty back here!


----------



## retrojet

Can anyone help me out with some info on this tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like a Sylvania gray plate.


----------



## retrojet

RiverRatt said:


> Looks like a Sylvania gray plate.



So not a NOS? Sorry I don't have much knowledge in NOS tubes. This was left in an amp I just bought.

As far as tonal qualities, is it similar to any more popular 12AX7's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it's old, probably from the mid-1960's. They aren't bad tubes at all, but they have a more rounded tone and don't have the the strong mids of a European tube. They sound great in a Fender, though. I'm running all Sylvania pre and power tubes in my Fender and it sounds really good. A lot of us use Sylvania tubes for the cathode follower/tone stack driver or as a phase inverter as they are very solid, reliable tubes. You might like the tone, and it won't hurt anything to try it. 

One other thing, NOS usually refers to tubes that are still in a new, unused condition. Not necessarily in a box, either. There are plenty of military tubes that were packed in bulk with no individual boxes. Also, it's becoming commonplace on eBay to refer to a tube that tests as-new as a NOS tube, but technically that's not correct. A tube can have several hundred or even thousand hours on it and still test as new.


----------



## retrojet

Thanks RiverRatt, great info! Very much appreciated. I'll roll it through and compare it with a couple others I have...it's in a Ceriatone Chupacabra, not exactly known for cleans, but we'll see.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yowza! I've been wanting to hear one of those heads in person since I heard the sound clips. If somebody had that tube in there, it's probably because they heard something they liked in it. Give it a try and see what you think. If you have a few different 12AX7's, try the Sylvania and the others in V1 and see which tone you like better. That's the fun of tube rolling, finding that combination that makes you feel like you're squeezing every ounce of tone out of that amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, what did you end up putting in the VM? Or did you leave it like it was?


----------



## RiverRatt

I played around with a few different V1 tubes, but I ended up putting your Ei back in. I think you had this thing dialed in pretty well.

Were those tubes I sent OK? Let me know if any of them weren't right. I grabbed them out of my stash without giving them a quick amp test before I sent them.


----------



## BluesRocker

To be honest I havent had the chance to give them a throw.. Been really super busy


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry Alan, but I am only spending about an hour on the forum nowadays. I used to spend 4 to 6 hours if not longer. I'm sure we will bump into each other.


----------



## RiverRatt

I hate to see so much of the old crowd dropping off, but we all have lives and family stuff to deal with. Stop by when you can.


----------



## solarburn

I'll be on/off for the next couple of weeks. Then it should be more regular...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe! How ya feeling, bro?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe! How ya feeling, bro?



Depraived!LOL

I'm on an all liquid diet. This week I'm suppose to work in some soft foods. Hopefully the shit will go down without getting stuck. 

Anyways I'll be touch'n base here prolly once a week until I get more normal on my diet. I'll be away from the puter most of the week. Good to see you guyz though. Soon i'll try out that 5751 in my Monza.

Should be fun. Glad to see this thread still go'n strong. Alan you get anything new amp or tube wise since last we talked?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. I'm soon to be without a DSL, but I picked up a killer Vintage Modern 2266 head from Bluesrocker. It's a great amp and IMO closer to the Marshall sound I was looking for than the DSL. I'd love to be able to keep both, but I don't think my finances will allow it. The only thing that sucks is that NOS KT66's are too expensive even to consider. Cody left a sweet bunch of tubes in it, though. He left a really nice Ei in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. He also had a set of Genalex RI KT66's in it, plus he included the original Marshall tubes as well. Helluva deal on a helluva amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Yup. I'm soon to be without a DSL, but I picked up a killer Vintage Modern 2266 head from Bluesrocker. It's a great amp and IMO closer to the Marshall sound I was looking for than the DSL. I'd love to be able to keep both, but I don't think my finances will allow it. The only thing that sucks is that NOS KT66's are too expensive even to consider. Cody left a sweet bunch of tubes in it, though. He left a really nice Ei in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. He also had a set of Genalex RI KT66's in it, plus he included the original Marshall tubes as well. Helluva deal on a helluva amp.



I do what I do Alan! But I did take the Telefunken out of V1.. lol I am keepin that one.. But that EI is very nice..


----------



## RiverRatt

I like Ei tubes, but I've dicked around and traded or sold off all my good ones. I just sent the last one out a few weeks ago. This was a very nice surprise! Just FWIW, I'm leaving a ribbed plate Telefunken in V1 on the DSL. You could sell the tubes I'm leaving in that amp for $150 on eBay. The RFT EL34's in the DSL have very few hours on them and were NOS when I put them in. You've got several years worth of killer tone right there. I'm keeping my GT EL34M's though. They sound pretty nice in the Egnater Tweaker. 

I may have to sell off some stuff and get one of those purple 425 cabs, just for the complete Barney the Dinosaur look. BTW Cody, I was reading on the web about those Eminence Soldano speakers. I'm pretty sure they are V12's and are supposed to be close to a Vintage 30. I think I'm going to try them in my Marshall 4x12 mixed with a couple of the G12T-75's.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I may have to sell off some stuff and get one of those purple 425 cabs, just for the complete Barney the Dinosaur look. BTW Cody, I was reading on the web about those Eminence Soldano speakers. I'm pretty sure they are V12's and are supposed to be close to a Vintage 30. I think I'm going to try them in my Marshall 4x12 mixed with a couple of the G12T-75's.



I played on the 425 cab once.. And that was with an 82 2203.. Man.. Wow. I didnt get to crank it much but it did sound sweet. First time I ever played with GB..

And I like the Barney Dinosaur look btw..

The Eminence speakers do sound great.. I never tried them with a 75 though.. Only with V30s and GBs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Governor is the V30 clone. The V12 series are just "British" voiced speakers made with a British paper cone.


----------



## ynot

Probably a stupid question,but if I want to beef up my plexi a touch where do I want to put high gain 12ax7's.I'm tired of using a dirt/boost when all I need/want is a just little more.From what I understand alot of the dirt on these amps comes from the PI so I assume I'd want high gain there.V1...I'm not sure what it does,but on V2 I believe each half is for the two channels.So would I want high gain in V2 & the PI...I still wanna clean up with the guitars volume?


----------



## RiverRatt

V1A and V1B are the gain stages, so you'll want to put your high-gainer in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And V2 is the (V2A) Tone Stack and (V2B) Cathode Follower. Just a good tube needed in this slot. V3 (PI)...I like a high gain here. This makes the amp sound more open.

As Ratt said, the most important "tone/gain" tube is V1. Stick your best tube in V1.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...V3 (PI)...I like a high gain here. This makes the amp sound more open...


Marty, you are much more expert than I am but the funny thing here is my experience is different on the PI. I have found on several amps that a 12AT7 gives me what seems like more headroom (in my JCA20H I have a 12AU7 for the same reason). It may be with less gain I am getting less overall volume so perhaps it is more an illusion of "headroom" (but really just less distortion), I dunno. Some might consider this blashphemy but in my 1959 a 12AT7 PI helps make it one of the best "cleanish" amps I have ever heard. For typical Marshall crunch I agree a good 12AX7 sounds best for the PI the vast majority of the time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's all about what works/sounds good to you. I can safely say that I would never run a 12AU7 as a PI tube, but I guess some like the results.

Now some amps are "designed" for a 12AT7 in the PI (like some Fenders). If an amp comes from the factory with a 12AX7 in the PI, that is what I will use.


----------



## xtine

Can someone identify these pre-amp tubes? 

I pulled these out an old JCM 800 4104 Combo.
Their labelling doesn't help me much. Are they worth keeping? or is it best to replace them?

V1 = has no-name at all
V2 = says ECC83M
V3 = says 12AX7A Made in China Oct.2006


----------



## RiverRatt

They are all Shugang (Chinese) 12AX7s. If you like the tone, they aren't bad. I like them better than the Russian tubes.


----------



## xtine

RiverRatt said:


> They are all Shugang (Chinese) 12AX7s. If you like the tone, they aren't bad. I like them better than the Russian tubes.



Thanks, I like the amp, but it's my first tube amp and I never heard it with other tubes so I cannot compare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some people like a Shuguang in V1, because they are usually high gain. Your clean sound may suffer and be a little too gritty.

If it was my amp, I would use a good used or NOS tube in that amp like a Mullard or Mini Watt. That's what will really help.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, one of these days I'm going to get you one of the long plate D getter Matsushitas. I've got a couple of them coming, but I don't think any of them are really strong. In V1 on the DSL, that tube is magic - along with the ubiquitous Raytheon in V2 it's the best sounding tube I've used in the DSL. It's beat Mullards, Amperex, Telefunken, Ei, RFT, etc... The ones I like tested at around 30-30 on your tester. Not super-high gain, but good, strong tubes.

For some reason, they don't sound as good in the Vintage Modern. The Ei that Cody put in there for me sounds really nice. I'm thinking about selling off a few 12AX7s and odd power tubes and see if I can raise enough money to put some old KT66's in it. So far though, I'm happy with the Genalex RI's. I'm getting the best tone that I've ever had from the VM with both the Strat and Les Paul.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> For some reason, they don't sound as good in the Vintage Modern. The Ei that Cody put in there for me sounds really nice. I'm thinking about selling off a few 12AX7s and odd power tubes and see if I can raise enough money to put some old KT66's in it. So far though, I'm happy with the Genalex RI's. I'm getting the best tone that I've ever had from the VM with both the Strat and Les Paul.



Alan, just for giggles, what are your settings on the VM?


----------



## RiverRatt

About the same as the DSL. I've been mostly using the low range with the presence on 0, treble on 4, mids on 10 and bass on around 7. If I'm using the strat, I kick in the mid boost. The body and detail are around 7. I like more detail than body for the Les Paul and vice versa for the strat.


----------



## BluesRocker

I was messing around on it one day and matched the tone of my Soldano. I was pretty impressed. Got a nice Warren Hayens tone. I forgot what the BMTP was but i do remember it was on HDR, mid boost on, detail at 4 and body at 6.. Plugged in the LP and went to town.. But I was playin on greenbacks. I dont know what that would sound like with 75s


----------



## fbermaguitars

good morning
i can recomend to you use 12ax7 MAZDA NOS 
extremely hi gain but not belivable quality also
japanise tubes ,i use a couple for hi gain also
for vintage tones,
for a "seriorial"tone very equilibrate good good
tunsgram 70ies 12ax7 not so hi gain but very custom tone
mybie you can try some day to put 4 kt88 jj tesla also
gives a faat good sounding and do a big difference of sounding
you can find all this tubes on ebay usually

thanks and have a nice day


----------



## MartyStrat54

There you go. The VM loaded with KT88's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't really see the improvement there, and I don't want to run KT88/6550 tubes in my VM. They are just as expensive as KT66's. The point was to find NOS KT66's that I can afford, which will probably never happen.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's like saying you will buy an Italian car that you can afford.

Back in the days when tubes ruled the world, the KT66 was just not that popular of a tube and that is what it all breaks down to. If a lot had been made, there would be a lot of used one's on the market for a decent price.

Sort of like an 8417. I think I bought the last four to put in my Randall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOS Sylvania-Philips 7581/KT66, $345. 

PLATINUM MATCHED QUAD PHILIPS / SYLVANIA 7581 KT66 | eBay


----------



## BluesRocker

Geez.. 345? wow


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's the kind of prices I'm talking about. I was thinking about selling off a few 5751's and EL84's. I also have that single GE 6CA7 that would be worth more to somebody else. I was just wondering if I could sell enough of 'em to get some real KT66's. Like I said, the Genalex RI's sound really nice in it. If I got some old KT66's and didn't like them, I could probably sell them for around what I paid. Is the 7581 a direct sub? I know a guy who has a few but I don't know if he'd be willing to sell.


----------



## BluesRocker

I dont think I would pay that much for power tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Considering that they'll probably last as long as I do, it's not so bad. Plus, I'd be getting the money from selling tubes I'm not using, so it's a pretty fair trade-off.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah.. I understand that.. But damn.. 345.. Thats kinda steep to me.. If one went out I would be mad...lol


----------



## TwinACStacks

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah.. I understand that.. But damn.. 345.. Thats kinda steep to me.. If one went out I would be mad...lol



 That's nothing compared to a Quad of Genelex 66's.

http://compare.ebay.com/like/200619575032?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y

$$$$$

 TWIN


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is the 7581 is a sub for a KT66? The author of the EBAY listing makes it seem so.

However, I did some research on Duncan and they make the 7581 seem more closer to a 6L6GB. This being said, I do not think the 7581's are constructed the same as a KT66. I'm sure of this. In fact, a 5881 is a preferred 6L6GB substitute "over" a 7581.

If you want real KT66's, you will have to pay for them. The best one's were made pre WWII and up until the early 60's. The later one's were not built as well.

Matched quads will cost more per unit over a matched pair.


----------



## RiverRatt

I only need 2. I always thought a 7581A was a rugged military version of the 6L6GC.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 7581 is not a 30 watt tube. More like 19 to 22W. I think you can get almost 60 watts out of a pair with the plate running max voltage, but tube life will suffer.

KT66's are what? 25W dissipation?


----------



## RiverRatt

So you probably could run a 6L6GC safely in a KT66 amp, but not the other way around?

Maybe I should just go for the Shugang Treasures. Ever heard from anyone who's actually used them?


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> So you probably could run a 6L6GC safely in a KT66 amp, but not the other way around?
> 
> Maybe I should just go for the Shugang Treasures. Ever heard from anyone who's actually used them?



I ran KT66s in my Soldano safely.. It originally had 6L6s.. Joey told me to use those cause of the high PV


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> So you probably could run a 6L6GC safely in a KT66 amp, but not the other way around?
> 
> Maybe I should just go for the Shugang Treasures. Ever heard from anyone who's actually used them?



That was the whole concept behind the KT66. It was the British answer to the 6L6 (not the GC, but the metal can and the GA and GB versions. The GC came a lot later down the road and I tend to look at it as a different animal, because of it power capabilities). I feel as long as the tube will bias properly, yes, go for it.

As far a the Shugaung Treasures? I feel you are paying a lot for a pretty box. A pretty box does not make a sweet sounding tube.


----------



## MM54

Just curious if anyone knows anything about Voskhod 12AX7's? I saw an ad for them and wondered if anyone here has ever even heard of them, let alone used them.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yup. I'm soon to be without a DSL, but I picked up a killer Vintage Modern 2266 head from Bluesrocker. It's a great amp and IMO closer to the Marshall sound I was looking for than the DSL. I'd love to be able to keep both, but I don't think my finances will allow it. The only thing that sucks is that NOS KT66's are too expensive even to consider. Cody left a sweet bunch of tubes in it, though. He left a really nice Ei in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. He also had a set of Genalex RI KT66's in it, plus he included the original Marshall tubes as well. Helluva deal on a helluva amp.



Very nice man! I pm'd ya.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Just curious if anyone knows anything about Voskhod 12AX7's? I saw an ad for them and wondered if anyone here has ever even heard of them, let alone used them.



Looks a lot like the Sovtek 12AX7WA's that I have lying around. If I were rating them as a tone tube, they'd be somewhere between a Shugang and wet cardboard.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome home, Joe!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Looks a lot like the Sovtek 12AX7WA's that I have lying around. If I were rating them as a tone tube, they'd be somewhere between a Shugang and wet cardboard.



That printing on the tube looks real familiar, doesn't it? If it is in the Sovtek family, I would be inclined to say, "more like wet cardboard."


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome home, Joe!



I'm so hit and miss hahaha! Thanx Alan. Been catching up on threads reading wise and its good to see Marty hang'n out more too! I be miss'n my buds!

On a preamp tube note I have an RFT 12AX7 in V1 and one of Marty's RCA D getter 12AX7 in the PI on my NT. I'm running some Roosky EL 84's. That RFT in V1 gives its character tone inflection...meat! I just love that flavor. It sounds better in my NT then it did in my Marshall. When I get a chance I'll put up a clip...maybe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm glad to be here JOE. I just wish there were more members posting here.

We need to do something to liven the place up.


----------



## solarburn

I know man. We use to have so much fun haha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey...I know what to do. Let's start rolling tubes in MESA's!


----------



## MM54

Joe, I haven't forgotten about the whole Mullard-dissection plan, I've just been really busy and not had a chance to do it while properly documenting it all. I did try the tube in my amp however, and I don't know what happened that made it take 8 days to get here, but it must have been messy, because I was getting hum and hiss and crackling from it


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey...I know what to do. Let's start rolling tubes in MESA's!



After MESA went through so much trouble to hand-select tubes for us and give them strange numbers from 1 to 9 to confuse the hell out of your average Guitar Center sales clerk? 

You know what the problem is? We need new amps all around. I'm having to approach the Vintage Modern in a completely different way than the DSL. I figured that if Cody's Ei ECC83 sounded good in V1, then a Tele smooth plate should sound really good, and it does! I've still got a lot of tubes to put through it, but I'm really disappointed in the Mullard/Matsushita-type tubes. They sound really dark and dull compared to the Tele.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I don't see any of us rushing out to buy an AFD or YJM amp to roll tubes in. I can't believe all of the people posting tube questions in new threads. Half the answers they get aren't very informative. 

Of course, there are people who own an all tube amp and they don't know what V1 is.


----------



## BluesRocker

Whats a V1?


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it was one of them thar German flying bombs from World War II.


----------



## BluesRocker

Oh, I was thinking that it was some concoction of a thing with another thing but this thing was the first thing that everyone saw.. Make sense?


----------



## RiverRatt

Here is a rare spy photograph of the V1 prototype.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very nice. That's one hell of a V1. 

Look out, England. The Nazi's are still alive and well.


----------



## RiverRatt

The cool thing is, it flashes when you power it up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like how long the glass tip is.


----------



## solarburn

I just need to get another Marshall. Then I'll be gush'n again hehe. With what I have in the stable now its just not going to be exciting to talk about around here. Hence why I'm in the other amp section mostly. Regardless I still feel at home. For me its only a matter of saving money...or theft.LOL


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here is a rare spy photograph of the V1 prototype.



Sweet!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I just need to get another Marshall. Then I'll be gush'n again hehe. With what I have in the stable now its just not going to be exciting to talk about around here. Hence why I'm in the other amp section mostly. Regardless I still feel at home. For me its only a matter of saving money...or theft.LOL



I wish that one of us had a 6100. I always wanted to see how tube rolling went with that amp.

I already posted in the Power Tube thread about your need for a Plexi. If I die, I'll give you my JMP 2203. 100 watts...all balls!


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Joe, you can buy my 1987x..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bringing forward some previously released information.

1.ECC83/12AX7 MAZDA GREY PLATE
A French military valve that is noted for it's Mullard Tone. In audio application these valves were detailed , lively and very balanced. Plenty of bass. Just
slam in these babies to rock. In guitar amps these rocked. The valves are very high gain, yes more gain than the famous Mullard ECC83. The distorted
tone was rich and fat . Treble response was clear even when really distorted. The valves were supremely quiet, however due to the immense gain
special selected version would be needed if your amp has a cascading gain pre amp section.

2.ECC83/12AX7 MAZDA SILVER ANODE
A French military valve with special silver plates made for special application military use.
In audio amps the valve displayed a slight treble forwardness. This gave the impression of less bottom end thump when compared to the Mazda
grey plates. A Fantastic detailed performer the sound stage was big . The valve was again very quiet which shows how well made they are. The
gain on these valves are somewhat less than the grey plates but still in the medium to high gain bracket.

This valve was amazing in Fenders. That sweet rich out of phase sound with a Strat just jumped out of the speakers. The valve was more
percussive than the Siemens E83CC and with a sweet alnico speaker the guitar sung. It's compression was quite late giving bags of clean
headroom. For that sweet Fender tone these have no equal.

3.ECC83/E83CC/ECC803S TESLA
This valve was the Czech replica of the famous Telefunken ECC803S. The valve has the large "A" frame getter and thick grade glass which
eliminates microphony. The valve also retains the gold pins and plate structure of the Telefunken. This valve is not the same as the new JJ/Tesla
E83CC. The first thing that strikes you is that it is very quiet and the valve displayed no microphonics whatsoever. Beautiful on female vocal as it
has a super midband, very fast and dynamic. We dug out our private stash of real Telefunken ECC803S and noticed that these were identical in
every way including the sound ( except for the diamond mark). The valve is not as high gain as the Mazda Grey or the RFT. Sonically this was
excellent. Rich bottom end silky smooth treble and nice balanced.

In Guitar amps the sound stage was big, no rings, no pops just your guitar. This valve seemed very neutral not coloring the sound in any way.
When pushed into distortion the valve sounded rich with super late compression. This valve is super it just does what it is supposed to do nothing more nothing less.

4.ECC83/12AX7 Sylvania
Classic American valve which was fitted by all the great 60's amplifier companies such as Ampeg, Fender & Gibson. This valve produces a rich
warm sound with excellent balance. When distorted produces a fat sound with plenty of drive without loss in top end clarity. In the Fender amps the
valve produced a clean bright response which was great for finger picking. Single coils sounded full with no harshness and plenty of detail. In the
Boogie a sweet clean sound was easily attained which was crisp and clear. Once you rocked the Boogie the Sylvania valves produced a classic
rock sound with a little mid forwardness which I liked. In the Boogie we found that due to the high gain nature of the amp low microphony selected
valves produced the best results. Early 1960's production ideal choice for all vintage Fenders.

5.ECC83/12AX7WA Philips-JAN
American military low noise valve made in the famous Sylvania plant in emporium. It retains the classic warm solid sound of the early Sylvania but
has less drive. This proved useful in the Boogie as the lower gain of the valve gave less microphonics. Mid range was very musical with all the
clarity of the Sylvania.the bottom end was superb and in comparison to the Sylvania sounded a little tighter and better defined which was
welcomed in the Marshall amps. The bass was not as deep as the Mullard but the Philips did have that instant British style tone. In the Fender
amps all the tone that you would expect was there. This is a superb valve and an instant upgrade for all modern amps.

6.ECC83/12AX7WA G.E-JAN
This is a rugged American military spec valve of immense quality. This is the same valve that was standard in 70's Fenders. The G.E valve is
famous for it's big crisp sound stage and bright top end response which breathes life into Fenders. This valve really supplied that authentic
Fender twang. The valve was brighter than the other American valves and also worked really well in the vox by giving it a clearer top end
response. When the valve distorts it has a rich harmonic feel and chime. Even under heavy Boogie distortion the bass and mid range detail was
also superb. Thoroughly recommended.

7.ECC83/Mullard
The legendary British valve which is the most sought after ECC83/12ax7 type of all time. The key is the way the valve distorts. It reproduces
exactly what is driven into it with great musicality. It combines smooth drive with balanced low microphonics. The Mullard reproduces every subtle
detail with a rich sound stage. When overdriven the valve had a 3 d effect which made the valve really sing. This sounded amazing in the Boogie.
The noise level even at full saturation were very low. The bass response has great kick without loss of definition. We came to the conclusion that
this was going to be a hard act to follow.

8.ECC83/M8137 Mullard BOX ANODE
The special military grade Mullard is one of the lowest noise and distortion types ever built with a superb box style anode plate. Raved about by
vacuum tube valley and quite rightly so. The sound stage is detailed and relaxed and it handles complex music with ease. If you want the best
audio valve then this is it as it has less distortion than the standard ECC83 Mullard. The mid band is superb with vocal rich and clear. Now very
rare and sought after. For audio, stomps on the Telefunken ECC83 and leaves it for dead.

9.ECC83/E83CC Siemens
Original German valve with extra mica support at the top of the valve and ribbed anode plate. Well balanced with large sound stage with low
distortion. Relaxed and very detailed. The valve had a real percussive ability which was great for Fender style picking. Bass & treble where in
correct proportion. The valve also had a superb mid band response which was not as detailed as the Mullard but crisper than the U.S valves.
Superb in audio applications on acoustic or Spanish guitar as this gave the impression that the guitar was being played in the same room. Super
in the noise department and was as quiet as the box anode Mullard. This valve can be highly recommended for audio or guitar.

10.ECC83/TELEFUNKEN
The classic German low noise ECC83 which provided a superb rich sound stage. The valve was electrically well balanced but did not have mid
range honk or bite of the Mullard ECC83. The midrange detail of the m8137 also left the tele in the shade when we used it in an audio test. The
valve shares all the Siemens strong points and does everything exceptionally well. Clarity is perfect with no fuzz or bass distortion. This is an
all-time classic valve and has a very high regard in audio circles.

11.ECC83/R.F.T
German valve that I have seen also branded Brimar, Siemens & Telefunken. This tube was also used for a long period by Marshall. The valve has
a rich bass response with great drive. Very low in microphonics due to thick glass envelope. The valve also distorts earlier than the U.S.A types.
The valve does show less treble response than the U.S.A types which lends the valve to be used in a more rock style set up. The rich harmonic
distortion make this a great valve in Marshall. Boogie and Vox amps. It showed rich sustain with plenty of bass crunch. Mid range was clear and
detailed. Defiantly for the rockers and blues players.

12.ECC83/CV4004 Brimar
British military spec with half flange anode. Instant British rock sound. Exceptional balance and sound staging with great drive. Has not got the
rich harmonic distortion or the unique 3d effect of the Mullard and under full distortion does not appear to have the same bite. The presentation is
relaxed and musical which all the new ECC83 types do not match. It does everything it should do excellently.

13.ECC83/TUNGSRAM
Hungarian valve which is identical in construction to the Mullard. It has additional internal supports which greatly reduces microphonics. Good
balance with clean top end response. The valve sounded vibrant in the Fenders and was low in noise. This is very important in old Marshall if you
want to make the amp cut through by increasing the presence control setting without all that hiss. The Tungstram does need around 48 hours run
in to get the best out of it. The valve had more headroom than the R.F.T. and was as quiet as the Mullards.

14.ECC83/E.I YUGOSLAVIA
This valve closely resembles the Telefunken ECC83 due to its' smooth anode plate design. This , however is where the comparison ends as the
valve sounds nothing like the tele. The valve is far too microphonic for use in guitar amps. We have even tried so called selected versions from
other dealers and even Boogie branded items all of which are in our opinion unusable except as phase splitters. The valve does have plenty of
gain and have a rich rock sound. The downside is that even ones which are low in microphonics seem to go microphonic within a few months.
Therefore we don't recommend its' use in guitar amplifiers.

15.ECC83/5751 G.E.-JAN
This is a low gain valve which produced all the classic G.E sound stage and performance as described with the 12AX7WA. The valve was very low
in distortion and very difficult to clip. This is an excellent valve for use in Fenders or any clean stage application. The sound was bright and vibrant
with plenty of detail. The valve was very well balanced indeed it was very easy to get identically matched valves. This valve is far better than any
currently produced valve for clean pure Fender style twang.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The simple rule to remember is that all the valves do sound different. The least expensive valve may meet your needs. 

Once you have found your preference always get some spares, because in life three things are certain, death, taxes and N.O.S valves will dry up.


----------



## BluesRocker

Telefunken FTW!!!
Mullard FTW!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You heard it first here...

INTRODUCING A NEW CANADIAN 12AX7! Northern Electric.

Northern Electric 12AX7

Review can be found here.

12AX7 Tube Type Review

EDIT: UPON FURTHER RESEARCH, I FOUND OUT THE TUBES ARE ACTUALLY MADE IN CHINA. THE TUBE STORE SORT OF HIDES THIS AND WHEN YOU PRINT "CANADA" ON THE TUBE BOX IT MAKES YOU THINK THE TUBES ARE MADE IN CANADA.


----------



## BluesRocker

Interesting.. I may have to try one of those


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't wait to try these out. I hope it does as good as the reviews state. I'll probably order some on Monday.


----------



## BluesRocker

Nice! When you get some in, I would like to try one out if ya wouldnt mind.. or I will just take your word for it.. It has been good to me every time before


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Blues. What gear are you keeping? What amp?


----------



## BluesRocker

My SLP... That is still at Joeys.. Talked to him today.. He is almost done with it


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. That's what I was thinking. You kept the loudest one.


----------



## BluesRocker

But of course... What kind of Marshall owner would I be if I didnt?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's the best you got cuz Joey modded it. I'll take that any day.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah.. He has been quite busy lately...But I know that she will sing like a little song bird when she gets back.. Oh my I cannot wait


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the air is out of my balloon. The Northern Electric tubes are made in CHINA.

How do you get away with printing "CANADA" on the box?

Any thoughts?


----------



## MM54

If the company selling them is based in Canada, so they can include "Canada" after their company name on the box. So I suppose the question now is, are these relabeled something-elses, or are they made specifically for that company?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> 14.ECC83/E.I YUGOSLAVIA
> This valve closely resembles the Telefunken ECC83 due to its' smooth anode plate design. This , however is where the comparison ends as the
> valve sounds nothing like the tele. The valve is far too microphonic for use in guitar amps. We have even tried so called selected versions from
> other dealers and even Boogie branded items all of which are in our opinion unusable except as phase splitters. The valve does have plenty of
> gain and have a rich rock sound. The downside is that even ones which are low in microphonics seem to go microphonic within a few months.
> Therefore we don't recommend its' use in guitar amplifiers.



I have problems with this one. I've owned several different Ei ECC83's and have never had a bad one. They've all been used in heads, not combo amps, but I think they compare pretty well with a Telefunken and I've never had the problems they describe. Would Marshall have used them in their amps for years if they sucked so bad in guitar amps?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree with you on this. Maybe it was a certain time period for production runs. 

I bought a bunch of Ei's that are NIB and marked RCA. Everyone that I sold was good.

This is the same sort of review from the Tube Store. They call them one of the worst and one of the best tubes they tested.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> If the company selling them is based in Canada, so they can include "Canada" after their company name on the box. So I suppose the question now is, are these relabeled something-elses, or are they made specifically for that company?



From what I gather, they are made for the Tube Store and the Tube Store is the only place you can buy them.

A while back, we got hot over the Genalex 12AX7, but it wasn't that good of a tube. It looks well made, but it didn't sound as good as it looked.

The same with this tube. $60 a piece and you don't have a clue as to how it will sound in any given amp.

I am now sort of waffling over whether to buy some. I mean two are $120. That's a lot of money for two Chinese tubes, regardless of how well they have been promoted.


----------



## sccloser

I had misplaced a couple of NOS tubes I had that I got from my father in the 1980's. But I was looking through the Sterlite boxes that I pack my stuff in for gigs and I found my old Boss DS-1 box. Knowing that my ds-1 is lying around the house, I opened it to see what was inside. There, nicely wrapped in paper towels, were the missing tubes! Then I remembered packing them up a couple of years ago to take as spares to a gig. Doh!

Anyway, one is a RCA 12AX7 made in Great Britain, black plate. I think it is a Mullard. The other is a Ward's (as in Montgomery Ward's) Airline 12AX7 Made in USA. It appears to have a gray plate. Any idea of it's origin?


----------



## RiverRatt

Can you post a picture of it? There's really no way to tell without seeing it.


----------



## sccloser




----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Joe, you can buy my 1987x..



Thanx man. Too broke now hehe!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish that one of us had a 6100. I always wanted to see how tube rolling went with that amp.
> 
> I already posted in the Power Tube thread about your need for a Plexi. If I die, I'll give you my JMP 2203. 100 watts...all balls!



Don't die. Just buy more amps so you can send me the 2203!


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Joe, I haven't forgotten about the whole Mullard-dissection plan, I've just been really busy and not had a chance to do it while properly documenting it all. I did try the tube in my amp however, and I don't know what happened that made it take 8 days to get here, but it must have been messy, because I was getting hum and hiss and crackling from it



I didn't bother protecting it because I knew you were going to dissect it. Having pointed that out, 8 days is a long time and I think it took some tumbles...


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


>



I can't really tell. One pic looks like the tube has a saucer getter. If it does I doubt if it's U.S. made. Can you post the photos any larger?


----------



## sccloser

They were large but shrank when I posted them. You can look in my photos here on the site and check it out. The tube is clearly "USA 12AX7" and I'm pretty sure was made prior to 1973 based on the fact that it is a Montgomery Ward's brand and my dad worked for MW from 1969 to 1973 as a technician and he is who I got the tube from.

It is also marked "12AX&/ECC 83" with the number 274 in red paint.


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Amp Forum - sccloser's Album: stuff - Picture
Marshall Amp Forum - sccloser's Album: stuff - Picture
Marshall Amp Forum - sccloser's Album: stuff - Picture

They still seem small. Go to my album and check it out.


----------



## RiverRatt

If it's got 274 on it, that's the EIA number for RCA. I thought that's what they might be, but I couldn't get the pictures any larger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...but they are not a black plate.

Now just because a tube says, "USA" on it does not guarantee that the tube was actually made in the USA.

Generally in my experience, an RCA marked with "Made in Gt. Britain" is usually a Mullard (with ribbed plates), or an Ei (with smooth plates). What sort of plates does the tube have? From what I can tell it looks ribbed.


----------



## RiverRatt

They could be the early to mid-1960's RCA 12AX7A's with the gray 14mm plates. They aren't bad but I wouldn't use them as a tone tube in a Marshall. Nice for Fenders and such.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...but they are not a black plate.
> 
> Now just because a tube says, "USA" on it does not guarantee that the tube was actually made in the USA.
> 
> Generally in my experience, an RCA marked with "Made in Gt. Britain" is usually a Mullard (with ribbed plates), or an Ei (with smooth plates). What sort of plates does the tube have? From what I can tell it looks ribbed.



They both (the RCA and the Airline) have ribbed gray plates. I thought the RCA plate was black at first...it is a slightly darker gray than the airline and the lighting was poor when I looked at it...but it is gray. 

Yeah, as far as the USA marking is concerned, it says USA 12ax7, but not Made in USA, so I see what you mean.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> They could be the early to mid-1960's RCA 12AX7A's with the gray 14mm plates. They aren't bad but I wouldn't use them as a tone tube in a Marshall. Nice for Fenders and such.



The RCA is the same type that I used to use in my 1989 2205 I had back in "the day." I thought they sounded pretty good back then. These RCA tubes came in the red and black boxes from the 1960's era. 

I have found the RCA gray plate tubes to sound pretty good in v1, not as good as some others, but better than a good many.


----------



## RiverRatt

Does the Airline have seams on the top? I'm not sure where we got to the Mullard thing. If it is a Mullard, it should still have the factory code on the side somewhere near the bottom.

The RCA's aren't a midrange-heavy tube like most of the European 12AX7/ECC83's. They are great for lows and highs, but I like a little more midrange bite. YMMV.


----------



## sccloser

Sorry, I think the RCA may be a Mullard because it was made in GB. Not sure what the Airline is, which is why I was asking.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay. I think the Airline is probably a real RCA. Marty's right about the Great Britain RCA. I must have missed that part somewhere, which is pretty typical.


----------



## sccloser

I got them mixed up in one of my posts (I corrected it now) so I was probably the source of the confusion.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...but they are not a black plate.
> 
> Now just because a tube says, "USA" on it does not guarantee that the tube was actually made in the USA.
> 
> Generally in my experience, an RCA marked with "Made in Gt. Britain" is usually a Mullard (with ribbed plates), or an Ei (with smooth plates). What sort of plates does the tube have? From what I can tell it looks ribbed.



Yes, the RCA has ribbed gray plates and the Airline has ribbed gray plates as well, but a little lighter shade of gray than the RCA. So, the Airline might be a real US RCA, and the RCA a Mullard? I guess that is all about as clear as mud...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as RATT said, if it is a Mullard, it will have seams on the top by the tip. It will also have "codes" etched in the glass near the bottom. If it is a smooth plate, it is probably an Ei, but from what I can see in the pictures, it is ribbed and you have verified this already. 

Do you see any seams?


----------



## RiverRatt

You know, I just noticed that...


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm only a few posts away...


----------



## RiverRatt

from having....


----------



## RiverRatt

POST # 3,000!!!!!! Only fitting that it go here. (sorry... got carried away)


----------



## MartyStrat54

3,000th POST!!!

Way to go, RATT. Glad you are still here. The forum appreciates your input.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well as RATT said, if it is a Mullard, it will have seams on the top by the tip. It will also have "codes" etched in the glass near the bottom. If it is a smooth plate, it is probably an Ei, but from what I can see in the pictures, it is ribbed and you have verified this already.
> 
> Do you see any seams?



Yes, the RCA made in GB has ribbed gray plates, ribs on the top, and there are some numbers printed on the tube near the bottom that are just under the Red RCA 12ax7. Those "codes" looked like jibberish until I realized they were alpha numeric printed upside down. So I guess this is a Mullard.


----------



## sccloser

ID'ing tubes sure calls for closely examining details.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You have a Mullard.

Some tubes have print so small, I have to use a powerful magnifier just to read it. It's amazing how small they can go with the letters.

Made in Japan


----------



## sccloser

OK, so the RCA made in GB is a Mullard...and the Airline marked US 12ax7 is an RCA? What did we decide on that one?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Didn't the Airline have "274" printed on the tube? This would be a ribbed, gray plate RCA.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, Mullard. The first set of three digits are the type code. I6 = 12AX7 and the 3rd digit is the revision number, probably a "3" in your case. The second series is the factory and date code. The first letter is almost always going to be a "B" for Blackburn. The next 3 digits are the year and week of manufacture, i.e. B412 would be the Blackburn plant, 1964, the 12th week.


----------



## RiverRatt

Double post.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, Mullard. The first set of three digits are the type code. I6 = 12AX7 and the 3rd digit is the revision number, probably a "3" in your case. The second series is the factory and date code. The first letter is almost always going to be a "B" for Blackburn. The next 3 digits are the year and week of manufacture, i.e. B412 would be the Blackburn plant, 1964, the 12th week.



Mine appears to be B5K2. Blackburn plant, 1965, the 2nd week?


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Didn't the Airline have "274" printed on the tube? This would be a ribbed, gray plate RCA.



Yes, I just wanted to make sure.


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys.. I love tubes... And Marshalls ..lol


----------



## sccloser

OK, I've got another RCA 12ax7, probably from the 70's (red box) Made in Great Britain, ribbed gray plates, marked RCA in red anmd 12ax7a/ecc83 in white. Also in red is "JD" and what appears to be a red letter "T" in a red square. No seams, no etching.

Mullard or not?


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry. My recall isn't all that. Should be Factory, Year, month, week. That's what I get for PUI (posting under the influence). K is November, 2 is the 2nd week.


----------



## sccloser

I got a cp Tung sol 12ax7 that tests showing a short on pin (or position) 7. 5 is the false positive. I marked it as bad. I did not conduct any further tests as it is my understanding to always test for shorts before running a test to protect the tester from damage. Correct? I guess I should throw it away.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry. My recall isn't all that. Should be Factory, Year, month, week. That's what I get for PUI (posting under the influence). K is November, 2 is the 2nd week.



Ok, then it is late 65. I'll take it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Guys.. I love tubes... And Marshalls ..lol



My girlfriend loves "tubes" too!


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> My girlfriend loves "tubes" too!



LOL... How ya been Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Guys.. I love tubes... And Marshalls ..lol



I'm glad this wasn't posted on the "NYC Passes Same Sex Marriage."


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Blues. I'm just hanging in there.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well.. Thats good I guess... Could be worse


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> My girlfriend loves "tubes" too!



As the singer in my last band would always say......wait for it....

"That's what she said!!!!"


----------



## solarburn

Alan...I feel sorry for those Monza owner's that don't have your 5751 in V1. Sweet harmonic OT's throughout the guitar volume range. Really a cool lil' tube for sure. I just had a real good time play'n with its dynamics. I owe you one...


----------



## RiverRatt

Wanna buy my DSL?


----------



## RiverRatt

I just had a feeling that 5751 would do well in your Monza. They aren't for every amp, but when they work, they really work! When I was playing that theatre thing I had my strat and Hot Rod Deville there one night and a guy actually walked down at intermission to see what I was playing through. I took the Les Paul the last two nights and it was a big ol' fat tone. I wish I could find 10 or 20 more of them. I should have sent you the one-two punch. I've got a black plate JHS-12AX7 Sylvania in V2 in that amp and it's smooth. Finishing it out is a Sylvania gray plate in V3 and Sylvania 6L6GC's in the power section.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Marty, River Ratt (or any fellow glass snobs),

I posted this in the Canadian tube tread as well, anyone tried one of these out yet?

12AX7VKA - Sunrise (Voskhod), Made in Russia | Amplified Parts

CP "new" Russian 12ax7? I have not done any home work as of yet, but for $11.00 I may just get a couple to try them out.


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Marty, River Ratt (or any fellow glass snobs),
> 
> I posted this in the Canadian tube tread as well, anyone tried one of these out yet?
> 
> 12AX7VKA - Sunrise (Voskhod), Made in Russia | Amplified Parts
> 
> CP "new" Russian 12ax7? I have not done any home work as of yet, but for $11.00 I may just get a couple to try them out.



I brought that up a little while ago, nobody seems to know anything about them. My guess is they're low-end CP stuff that their military may use, or something. They don't seem to be marketed as much.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> I brought that up a little while ago, nobody seems to know anything about them. My guess is they're low-end CP stuff that their military may use, or something. They don't seem to be marketed as much.



Yea, I cant seem to find any back story to them. Still digging though....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got an email from the President of the Tube Store. It looks like he may be sending me some of the Northern Electric 12AX7's to test. If so, I told him that I would send them to several other "aggressive" tube rollers to test. I'll keep you posted.


----------



## johnfv

Can any Texas hillbilly tube rollers get in on that action?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll wait to see if I get any tube(s) first.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll wait to see if I get any tube(s) first.



Dont forget your Western affiliate


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll wait for a review first. I've been disappointed by too many of these Wonder Tubes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got an email from the President of the Tube Store. It looks like he may be sending me some of the Northern Electric 12AX7's to test. If so, I told him that I would send them to several other "aggressive" tube rollers to test. I'll keep you posted.



I'm your Huckleberry...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I just had a feeling that 5751 would do well in your Monza. They aren't for every amp, but when they work, they really work! When I was playing that theatre thing I had my strat and Hot Rod Deville there one night and a guy actually walked down at intermission to see what I was playing through. I took the Les Paul the last two nights and it was a big ol' fat tone. I wish I could find 10 or 20 more of them. I should have sent you the one-two punch. I've got a black plate JHS-12AX7 Sylvania in V2 in that amp and it's smooth. Finishing it out is a Sylvania gray plate in V3 and Sylvania 6L6GC's in the power section.



Awesome!

Well what's so great about the Monza is its sustain. It has great sustain and that lil 5751 likes to sing whenever you hold onto a note. Since the Monza's sustain is so good those harmonic overtones come out with picking and finger plucking the strings or tapping on them. Damn fun to play around with different finger attacks cause its dynamic. I can control the amp better. The 12AX7's hit with more hair and aggressive saturation. This IS a smoother V1 tube. Its a "blues tube" hehe.

Well man we have come up with some nice tube combinations and it does vary from circuit to circuit. I'm pleasantly surprised with this 5751 cause I had such a disappointment with a JAN. Never would have tried another or thought much of it after that. Marty tried to get me to try a good one but I had already made up my mind they weren't for me. Fact is I just had a bad one and of course the one you sent me is a "primo" one.

Another week and I should be back online regular. I'll try and catch up when I can. If I don't answer right away its cause I'm away from home and puter hehe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'll wait for a review first. I've been disappointed by too many of these Wonder Tubes.



Ain't that the truth!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got another email from the President of the Tube Store. 

And this email too.

Your order has been shipped.
The shipping option you chose was Express Service, which means your order should 
arrive the next business day.

I'm thinking at least two. If so, I will test one out real quick and then send a tube to JOE and ALAN. Then we can get a list of others who want to try it out.

Anyone wanting in on this has to submit a review.

Daniel (the President) assured me that these tubes kick butt in combo amps, so I will try one in the 401 and the 122. Also in the V1 of the JMP.

These are $58 dollar tubes. You are responsible for good packing of the tube. If you break the tube, a fee will be charged.

I will test the tubes on my tester to see how close they are and what the tests scores are. Hopefully, they will be close.


----------



## solarburn

Sounds good big brudder!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> POST # 3,000!!!!!! Only fitting that it go here. (sorry... got carried away)



Oh hell man I missed this somehow...

Slammed a shot o xpresso!

3K...and counting!


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool Marty! We'll put them through the wringer. 

Joe, looks like you're getting back to your old self. 

I found an RCA Orthophonic reel-to-reel machine today. It's in great condition and the guy wants $50 for it. The power tubes are those 50C5's like I thought they would be, but it has two RCA white label/black plate 12AX7's in it. I'm guessing they are from the mid-50's. Think it's worth it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Only if you want to use it as a reel-to-reel. The RCA Black Plates to me do not sound as good as some of the RCA gray plates.

How much can you sell the 50C5's for?

How many tubes total? Five or six...rectifier?

Show him two, twenty dollar bills.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got another email from the President of the Tube Store.
> 
> And this email too.
> 
> Your order has been shipped.
> The shipping option you chose was Express Service, which means your order should
> arrive the next business day.
> 
> I'm thinking at least two. If so, I will test one out real quick and then send a tube to JOE and ALAN. Then we can get a list of others who want to try it out.
> 
> Anyone wanting in on this has to submit a review.
> 
> Daniel (the President) assured me that these tubes kick butt in combo amps, so I will try one in the 401 and the 122. Also in the V1 of the JMP.
> 
> These are $58 dollar tubes. You are responsible for good packing of the tube. If you break the tube, a fee will be charged.
> 
> I will test the tubes on my tester to see how close they are and what the tests scores are. Hopefully, they will be close.



Hey Marty,

I'm in. And I am fine with the conditions of "you break you buy"/ "must review". 

The Mode Four and Valve State are great for isolating preamp tube differences.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It was awful nice that he mailed them "EXPRESS." They should be here tomorrow or NLT Saturday.

I got a feeling a lot of people are going to want and try these.

How long do you think with each person? 3 days? A week?

If you are interested in trying one of these tubes, please list your name and the City/State you live in. I will contact you for your full address when I make the schedule out.

Joe in in the northwest and Alan is in the mid-south and I'm in the middle.

I'm really hoping he sent at least two tubes.


----------



## MM54

I'd say go for it, Ratt. Those white label RCAs have always sounded really good to my ears, and if nothing else, you could probably sell them and break even.


----------



## RiverRatt

If they are good. I know there's a 99% chance that they are, but still... If they were Telefunkens or Mullards I wouldn't hesitate, but I'm just not a big RCA 12AX7 fan.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> It was awful nice that he mailed them "EXPRESS." They should be here tomorrow or NLT Saturday.
> 
> I got a feeling a lot of people are going to want and try these.
> 
> How long do you think with each person? 3 days? A week?
> 
> If you are interested in trying one of these tubes, please list your name and the City/State you live in. I will contact you for your full address when I make the schedule out.
> 
> Joe in in the northwest and Alan is in the mid-south and I'm in the middle.
> 
> I'm really hoping he sent at least two tubes.



Hey Marty,

Scott, and I'm just south of Joe in Portland OR.


----------



## johnfv

I think I might be afraid to try a $58 preamp tube... what if I like it?


----------



## RiverRatt

So are we going to do this chain-letter style? If you could make out a list, we could give them a try and then send them on to the next person. I always send tubes via Priority Mail with delivery confirmation and have never had a problem. The rates are very reasonable.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I think I might be afraid to try a $58 preamp tube... what if I like it?



That's not my main concern. I've bought literally dozens of NOS tubes for less money than that. There are much better deals out there. 

When I see these high prices on current production tubes, I think they are aimed at the audiophile crowd, i.e. the people who will pay upwards of a thousand dollars for some obscure NOS tube. The best tube for hi-fi is not necessarily the best tube in a guitar amp.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Scott, and I'm just south of Joe in Portland OR.



Yeah I was thinking you were right next door to me Scott.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It was awful nice that he mailed them "EXPRESS." They should be here tomorrow or NLT Saturday.
> 
> I got a feeling a lot of people are going to want and try these.
> 
> How long do you think with each person? 3 days? A week?
> 
> If you are interested in trying one of these tubes, please list your name and the City/State you live in. I will contact you for your full address when I make the schedule out.
> 
> Joe in in the northwest and Alan is in the mid-south and I'm in the middle.
> 
> I'm really hoping he sent at least two tubes.



I'll be a 3 day-er more than likely including getting it mailed. Its just go'n in V1 of 2 amps. A week should be plenty of time to test it out and get it mailed for most I think.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. The tubes got here today. I got three, Northern Electric 12AX7's and three, Preferred Series 7025's. All marked as made in Canada. The 12AX7's are in a fancy metal case. I'm a little worried about this, because the tube is hard to get out. There is a formed foam insert inside the metal box. The box has to be shaken like a stubborn ketchup bottle and the tube will start to come out. I'm just worried someone will have trouble with this and the tube will fly out. I guess we are all big boys and should be able to get the tubes out.

I was surprised to get the PS 7025's. I did not know that they are being sold as made in Canada. 

ARE YOU GUYS INTERESTED IN TESTING A PREFERRED SERIES TUBE? It's just as cheap to mail two tubes as it is one. I have no problem sending out both tubes to be tested and reviewed.

JOE and ALAN, I will mail your tubes out on the 6th of July. I have an out of town doctor appt. on the 5th.

As stated, I will test all six tubes and see how they do on my tester. Hopefully, they will be close in gain.

My initial reaction to the 12AX7's are that they appear to be very well made. 

JOE-According to what I have found, these tubes have been tested more in guitar amps than hi fi amps. It would seem if a tube can handle a guitar amp, it can handle a hi fi amp.

I am going to keep my test results to my self for the time being. I don't want to affect other peoples reviews.


----------



## solarburn

I'd test a preferred series too. Good to know that they are getting tested in guitar amps as opposed to just HIFI amps mostly. Now we're hav'n fun again. Yea awh!


----------



## MM54

I'm very interested in seeing how the tests go (I'd want to test some out myself but my schedule is too hectic to be able to plan any sort of schedule for getting them tested and mailed back out). Be sure you let us know what you think, guys


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah I was thinking you were right next door to me Scott.



Yep, you could practically throw a rock and hit my house Joe!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. The tubes got here today. I got three, Northern Electric 12AX7's and three, Preferred Series 7025's. All marked as made in Canada. The 12AX7's are in a fancy metal case. I'm a little worried about this, because the tube is hard to get out. There is a formed foam insert inside the metal box. The box has to be shaken like a stubborn ketchup bottle and the tube will start to come out. I'm just worried someone will have trouble with this and the tube will fly out. I guess we are all big boys and should be able to get the tubes out.
> 
> I was surprised to get the PS 7025's. I did not know that they are being sold as made in Canada.
> 
> ARE YOU GUYS INTERESTED IN TESTING A PREFERRED SERIES TUBE? It's just as cheap to mail two tubes as it is one. I have no problem sending out both tubes to be tested and reviewed.
> 
> JOE and ALAN, I will mail your tubes out on the 6th of July. I have an out of town doctor appt. on the 5th.
> 
> As stated, I will test all six tubes and see how they do on my tester. Hopefully, they will be close in gain.
> 
> My initial reaction to the 12AX7's are that they appear to be very well made.
> 
> JOE-According to what I have found, these tubes have been tested more in guitar amps than hi fi amps. It would seem if a tube can handle a guitar amp, it can handle a hi fi amp.
> 
> I am going to keep my test results to my self for the time being. I don't want to affect other peoples reviews.



I am fine with either or both Marty. Maybe Joe can send them down south when he is done with them? 

The cases cant be any harder to deal with than an old NOS box


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty I will test them out.. I can get them from Alan.. He is just a couple hours from me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it would almost work out to where I could hand-deliver them. I doubt they'll have time to get here before next weekend, though.


----------



## solarburn

Looks like we got ourselves some tester's hehe. Cool cool cool. Yeah where I'm at so is Scott so that will be a quick way to get input in a short time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Round One will be Joe and Alan and Round Two will be Scott and Cody.

Anyone else? Johnfv? Sccloser?


----------



## solarburn

Thanx Martimus! Good times again.

I'm looking forward to all the feedback. We're gonna have a variety of amps, gears and ears. I'm plug'n straight in using my Strat HSS into the Night Train and Monza hooked up to a Veteran 30 112 OB cab. The tubes are going in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, that's all I'm going to do is run them in V1. It's hard to believe that the Tube Store sent me $250 worth of tubes. Wow! And all it took was a "bitch" email.

I'll be using my Fat HSS Strat with the DiMarzio's in it.

(Now if I can only get Anthony over at Eminence to send me some free speakers.)


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I was going to call you earlier.. Cause I felt the need to say ask and you shall receive.. I remember a while back you wanted someone here to roll tubes in a 6100 to see how they all sound and shit.. Well.. I traded my 1987X for a 6100 today.. My first setting was

V1- GE 7025
V2- Telefunken Ribbed
V3 Telefunken Ribbed
V4 Raytheon BP
V5 CP Mullard
V6 JAN Raytheon
V7 CP Mullard..

I was running low on NOS tubes.. lol


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, that's all I'm going to do is run them in V1. It's hard to believe that the Tube Store sent me $250 worth of tubes. Wow! And all it took was a "bitch" email.
> 
> I'll be using my Fat HSS Strat with the DiMarzio's in it.
> 
> (Now if I can only get Anthony over at Eminence to send me some free speakers.)



Dood I can't believe they sent those either but you know what? Its smart on their part. I know alot of us shop with them and I have to say they have replaced duds for me. I like em'. Been fair and accommodating. If they blow it this thread carries some weight behind being so big and informative.

Our collective can impact sales...still I give them kudos for sending them. I don't know what the bitch was but your point must have been valid.LOL

Kudos to you too for setting up this gauntlet of testers!


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't even think about tubes. We just got back from the official annual family 4th of July picnic. Barbeque, beans, no beer! Thankfully a couple of the guys make their own sippin' whiskey. I got a couple of double shots of something that was 140+ proof. Whew! Ain't livin' in the south fun! Where else can you gorge on barbecue in 100 degree weather with a bunch of Baptists who won't drink a beer but have a jug of moonshine hidden in the closet?


----------



## BluesRocker

Mmmm Moonshine!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's what I'm sayin'. It's a lifesaver.

You want me to bring you some more NOS to stick in that new amp of yours next Saturday? I've had Christmas trees that didn't have as many bulbs as that thing's got.


----------



## BluesRocker

LOL.. Yeah I have a Mullard and a Ray BP that I am saving for the SLP, that I will roll in there tonight to see what all stuff I can stir up.. 

On you bringing some that is your decision..


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll scrounge around and hook you up with something. If nothing else, some nice old Sylvanias so you don't have to waste your tone tubes on the ancillary positions.


----------



## BluesRocker

Sweet! Thanks Alan!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I can't even think about tubes. We just got back from the official annual family 4th of July picnic. Barbeque, beans, no beer! Thankfully a couple of the guys make their own sippin' whiskey. I got a couple of double shots of something that was 140+ proof. Whew! Ain't livin' in the south fun! Where else can you gorge on barbecue in 100 degree weather with a bunch of Baptists who won't drink a beer but have a jug of moonshine hidden in the closet?



Hahahaha! No beer but here try some of this...

Its hot here too and we're all enjoy'n 80's. Glad it aint in the 100's. Whew!

This makes me hungry too Alan. Barkabew and beans. Mmmmm!


----------



## BluesRocker

I am grilling out on Monday with Ashley and a few friends of mine.. Lots of beer will be here.. And consumed too..


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know why none of my people like a drink. I took to it right away. It's only at things like this with aunts, uncles and cousins where the alcohol comes out.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well you need to get them wasted then.. Like hammered


----------



## MM54

So guys, what's the deal with NOS Soviet tubes? I see them on eBay going... well, rather cheap.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the power tubes from the 1970's. There's a 6P3S (6n3c) that is somewhere around a 5881 or 6V6 that sounds great in my Egnater Tweaker. I've used the 6P14P (EL84 equivalent) and they are nice sounding power tubes in some amps. I've read that some folks don't like them in Marshalls. I've used them in several small EL84 amps and liked them just fine. They are ultra-rugged and rated at something like 10,000 hours. The 6N2P preamp tubes that you see listed as 12AX7's require a rewiring of the socket in order to work.


----------



## MM54

The 6n2P are the ones I was curious about, thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here you go...

NOS / NIB 1960s Genalex Gold Lion B759 12AX7 Tube | eBay


----------



## BluesRocker

Wow! A bit out of my price range


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd have been all over that if it were a matched pair. I'm running low on $1k tubes.


----------



## MM54

I've been bidding on a lot of tubes recently (I think Ratt set off my tube GAS ) and I saw that one. There was one a couple weeks ago that went for around $900


----------



## solarburn

I'd rather by another amp/guitar than spend that kind of money on toobs.


----------



## Gtarzan81

Marty,
I may be up for trying out a N.E. 7025 in v1 of the 6100.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TUBE REVIEW UPDATE:

I tested the tubes yesterday evening. The first one I tested was a 7025PS. It read 31-31. I thought, "Nice." The other five, including the NE12AX7's tested in the mid 70's to the hottest being 90-91.

I double checked everything and then tested a known good NOS tube. It wasn't the tester. You would think that if you were sending out tubes for review, that they would have been screened much, much better.

Anyway, this is what they sent and this is what we will review. I have Joe and Alan's packages ready and I will mail them from either Leavenworth or Atchison. (I have a doctor appt. tomorrow, but I think I will be able to hit the PO.)

"Did you say high gain?"


----------



## RiverRatt

Interesting. I don't think even a 12BZ7 is half that hot. Hopefully by the time they get here I'll be able to test them in my Vintage Modern head with a proper 425A cab. I don't suppose anybody here gives a rat's ass what they sound like in a Fender? 

I've still got the DSL too, so I'll give 'em a turn in it. I'm about so disgusted with the whole amp selling thing that I've about decided to keep it. I posted a decent pile of tubes on eBay over the last few days. If they pay off, I won't need the cash from the DSL sale anyway. It sucks that a great Marshall amp won't even bring $500. What's this world coming to? I just never saw myself as owning two Marshall amps. I'm lucky just to have one. I must admit I do like the idea of a DSL50/Vintage Modern 2266 stereo rig.


----------



## MM54

:eek2:

Hot.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hot! Hot! Hot!


----------



## MM54

What's considered "100%" on that tester, 30? If it's testing 90, that's 3 times what it's supposed to do. Something's not right. Marty, does your tester read out the actual gain factor or does it tell you a scaled-back transconductance figure?


----------



## MartyStrat54

On the B and K 707, 22 is considered nominal new. This represents 80 on a percentage scale. 30 is indeed 100 percent. The scale goes to 120. Generally, tubes that test around 35-35 are what I consider to be very high gain V1's.

The 707 is a very accurate and respected tube tester. 

I have never had any 12AX7's read above 50 before in my four years of testing all sorts of 12AX7's.

Maybe Daniel will send out some different tubes. You know, one's that have been screened and tested.

It sort of sucks that I am sending these out, but this is what the Tube Store sent me. I guess a regular customer would get the luck of the draw and get one that was like 32-32, instead of 90-91.

I'll send Daniel an email and let him know what the tubes tested at.


----------



## MM54

I'm not questioning your tester Marty, I know it's a great one (and among my list of stuff I'd like to get one of some day). I'm just wondering, does it give you that number (say, 30) based on it actually reading/measuring the gain factor of the tube, or does it just read out the transconductance for the tube and put it on a more manageable scale?

With transconductance figures thee times what they're supposed to be on a 12AX7 (per my datasheet, 1250-1600 micromhos) something's gotta give. It's too early (I just got up) for me to figure out the math, but I'd be watching the voltages/current draw on those tubes pretty closely if I put them in one of my amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From Daniel-The Tube Store

Marty,

We checked them all in an AT1000 tester. Typically the PS has lower Gm 
measurements compared to many other tubes, but the gain is still high 
and a strong majority of our customers report fantastic results.

I'm not surprised at all that your B&K results are unusual, we've seen 
this with many other types. What I don't understand is why our B&K 747 
shows them to be perfectly normal, nothing at all like your results. (We 
don't usually use the 747 for daily testing but got it out to compare to 
your 707 best I could). In fact, we randomly took Shuguang 12AX7B and 
reissue Genalex ECC83 stock to compare and they test 10-15% higher than 
our PS tubes on average. The NE tubes are more inline with the Shuguang 
and Genalex in the B&K. The JAN-GE and JAN-Philips tubes we checked are 
on average 10% lower than our PS tubes.

Regards,

Dan
thetubestore.com


----------



## MartyStrat54

My response:

Daniel,

I think the 747 tests 12AX7's differently than the 707. The 707 states that if the tube reads 22 or better, it is a good (nominal new) tube. The 22 represents approximately 80 percent. 30 is considered 100 percent. As I said, 35-35 would be considered a high gain tube. I have an inventory of over 400, 12AX7's and the hottest tubes such as 37-39 would be used as a phase inverter tube. None of my inventory has ever read in the 70's through 90's.

I know the AT1000 is a very accurate. When you tested the tubes, what sort of reading did you get? Were both triodes balanced, or was there some variance? Why do you think one of the 7025PS read 31-31 and the other tubes all were so high? Why wouldn't the AT1000 show a difference between the 31-31 and the 90-91 tubes?

Sincerely, Marty


----------



## MM54

Marty said:


> ...I have an inventory of over 400, 12AX7's...



:eek2:


It'll be interesting to get to the bottom of this 

Maybe I should get around to building the 12AX7 uber-tester I designed a while ago, with it I could tell you the exact gain factor at amp-operating conditions, as well as approximate transconductance.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Attention:

I double checked my tester and it is reading way high. The problem is with my tester. It is on the fritz. The NE and PS tubes should work just fine in your amps.

That sucks man. I just had the thing cleaned and calibrated in Oregon. I'm going to get a hold of the tech to see what he thinks it is. Regardless, I will be sending it back to him.


----------



## solarburn

Well now you know somethings amiss with it. Better to get it accurate again then go on not knowing its hav'n issues. Thanx for letting us know Marty. Hope your tester is an easy fix...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I spent $125 plus two-way shipping costs to get it cleaned and calibrated. One of the things he did was soldered these special test lamp (bulbs) to the socket. Apparently, one of the faults of a 707 is this lamp/socket issue. Soldering the bulb to the socket ensures that the circuit will be good at all times during tube testing. I had this done and all the electrolytic caps were replaced (yeah a cap job).

Now I am going to have to send it back again and be without a tester. Sheeze!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I spent $125 plus two-way shipping costs to get it cleaned and calibrated. One of the things he did was soldered these special test lamp (bulbs) to the socket. Apparently, one of the faults of a 707 is this lamp/socket issue. Soldering the bulb to the socket ensures that the circuit will be good at all times during tube testing. I had this done and all the electrolytic caps were replaced (yeah a cap job).
> 
> Now I am going to have to send it back again and be without a tester. Sheeze!



Sounds like me and my amps.LOL

Yeah after all that you'd think it was right on and good to go. Like I said I hope its an easy fix.


----------



## MM54

Ouch. Well, at least we know the tubes aren't dangerously hot. I was really confused there for a while.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Alan...if I still lived in Birmingham Id be all over that DSL man. Marty? I just installed one of your killer tone packs. Id love to get in on this round robin of testing to see how CP tubes can compare to the good stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, the tubes should be fine to test in your amps.

I wish I could afford an AT1000, but that thing is really expensive and I only plan to do this for about another year.

I had designed some really cool T-shirts and was going to get some made, but 20 of them was $330. Two years ago I would have done it, but now it doesn't make any sense. Same with the tester. I paid for "preventive" medicine and thought I would be good until I quit selling tubes. Now I have to spend money on the tester again, because I have to have one.


----------



## MM54

Any particular reason you're planning to quit soon, Marty?


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Ive got a coupla NOS GE 7025's, Ive got a NOS Mullard(one of the japanese matsushitas to be precise)...Ive got several old tubes I can compare objectively with these CP ones...but they dont come close to the set you sold me. Everybody in the house, including the 12yo..immediately commented on how much more clear and crisp my amp was. Thanks for the great set man. Absolutely killer. In conjunction with the mods I did, on green-crunch I have definitely got my old 2203 back. On the reds...it just gets better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chuckharmonjr said:


> Id love to get in on this round robin of testing to see how CP tubes can compare to the good stuff.



That's not a problem. For your area, the 1 and 2 slot is filled. You could be the 3rd slot. I'll see that you get a set to test. Will probably be at least 10 days from today.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Bro Im there...3rd is good. Just let me know who to send them on to.


----------



## RiverRatt

chuckharmonjr said:


> Alan...if I still lived in Birmingham Id be all over that DSL man. Marty? I just installed one of your killer tone packs. Id love to get in on this round robin of testing to see how CP tubes can compare to the good stuff.



I wish you did, too. I can't believe how slow things are moving around here.

Marty, sounds like your luck is running about like mine lately.


----------



## BluesRocker

Sorry to hear that Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Any particular reason you're planning to quit soon, Marty?



Very simple. Time and costs. It takes a lot of time to find good tubes "at" a price that allows markup. I don't get Telefunkens for $20 a piece. Most sellers want to sell their tubes at what I call an end user price. In other words, some hi fi nut will pay $80 or more for a Telefunken. I can't pay that. It is getting really hard to find good tubes at a low price. In business and the law of supply and demand, it is simple, you just raise the price.

Four years ago, I started getting into this. It doesn't matter if I started 10 years ago, or last year. The bottom line is that used and NOS tubes have gone up in price by at least 28 percent each year. Think about that? If I was buying some Mullards for $20 a piece four years ago, they are now costing over $40 each in today's market. I've been selling Mullards for $45 for a long time. I just raised the price to $50.

SUPPLY-This is what effects price. We are looking at the last three or four years of used tubes. NOS and NIB are getting very hard to come by. I'm not saying that in 3 or 4 years there won't be any tubes. There will, but the price on them will be sky high. NOS prices in another 4 years will be way out of the average guy's reach. Plain and simple.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Well I am glad I bought in early considering how long pre-amp tubes last in a Master Volume amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was a strong set I sold you. They should last in your amp a long time.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Very simple. Time and costs. It takes a lot of time to find good tubes "at" a price that allows markup. I don't get Telefunkens for $20 a piece. Most sellers want to sell their tubes at what I call an end user price. In other words, some hi fi nut will pay $80 or more for a Telefunken. I can't pay that. It is getting really hard to find good tubes at a low price. In business and the law of supply and demand, it is simple, you just raise the price.
> 
> Four years ago, I started getting into this. It doesn't matter if I started 10 years ago, or last year. The bottom line is that used and NOS tubes have gone up in price by at least 28 percent each year. Think about that? If I was buying some Mullards for $20 a piece four years ago, they are now costing over $40 each in today's market. I've been selling Mullards for $45 for a long time. I just raised the price to $50.
> 
> SUPPLY-This is what effects price. We are looking at the last three or four years of used tubes. NOS and NIB are getting very hard to come by. I'm not saying that in 3 or 4 years there won't be any tubes. There will, but the price on them will be sky high. NOS prices in another 4 years will be way out of the average guy's reach. Plain and simple.



Makes sense, kind of also goes with why I'm looking to buy a lot of tubes before I go to college - being pretty much broke and not playing my amps other than in the summers for 4 years isn't going to be fun, but it sure as hell won't be good for buying tubes for the sake of the fact that I figure by the time I get out in 4 years the NOS market will be ludicrous. Or gone. Imagine what a blackburn Mullard will be worth in 15 years the way CP tubes are now? Even if CP catches up to NOS (which I really don't see happening) the old ones are still going to be worth a ton.

If nothing else, I'll have a cabinet full of investments


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Attention:
> 
> I double checked my tester and it is reading way high. The problem is with my tester. It is on the fritz. The NE and PS tubes should work just fine in your amps.
> 
> That sucks man. I just had the thing cleaned and calibrated in Oregon. I'm going to get a hold of the tech to see what he thinks it is. Regardless, I will be sending it back to him.



Who do you go to in Oregon Marty?


----------



## MM54

Found out today that I was bidding against my dad on ebay for some 12AX7's on the 4th 

Talk about a communication failure 

(He won, by 37 cents )


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Found out today that I was bidding against my dad on ebay for some 12AX7's on the 4th
> 
> Talk about a communication failure
> 
> (He won, by 37 cents )



Thats funny shit there Matt.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wanna hear some more funny shit? Last night I heard a big crash from the vicinity of the kitchen. I had been sorting through tubes and left a box sitting on the table. Turns out the sound was my son accidentally knocking the box off into the floor. Do you have any idea what a sick sound that is? Thankfully they were mostly junk - I think I lost a few 12AU7's and a 5U4GB. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself anyway.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Wanna hear some more funny shit? Last night I heard a big crash from the vicinity of the kitchen. I had been sorting through tubes and left a box sitting on the table. Turns out the sound was my son accidentally knocking the box off into the floor. Do you have any idea what a sick sound that is? Thankfully they were mostly junk - I think I lost a few 12AU7's and a 5U4GB. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself anyway.



Ouch! Like nails on a chalkboard!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bored? Need a good read?

eBay Guides - The Tubeking's Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Ouch! Like nails on a chalkboard!



All I could think of was that I never knew you could get that much crunch from a 12AU7. I've broken a few tubes in stupid ways in my life, and the sound is always the same. I stepped on a nice EL84, sat on a 12AX7, all sounded the same.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Wanna hear some more funny shit? Last night I heard a big crash from the vicinity of the kitchen. I had been sorting through tubes and left a box sitting on the table. Turns out the sound was my son accidentally knocking the box off into the floor. Do you have any idea what a sick sound that is? Thankfully they were mostly junk - I think I lost a few 12AU7's and a 5U4GB. That's what I'm going to keep telling myself anyway.



OUCH

This is why all my NOS non-guitar amp tubes live in a special storage cabinet in the basement (I'll take a picture sometime when I pull all the drawers out and put them side-by-side, it's a lot of tubes) and all my guitar tubes live on a shelf in my room.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> ...sat on a 12AX7, all sounded the same.



I prefer sitting on large, coke bottle tubes.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I prefer sitting on large, coke bottle tubes.



Wanna buy the (admittedly untested) pair of 1625's I have?


----------



## MartyStrat54

SEXY!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I prefer sitting on large, coke bottle tubes.



Do tell 

I put a tube in my pocket one day and forgot about it. I didn't do it for kicks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Would go perfect in an 80's tribute band. 

A large tube stuffed in the front of some spandex pants.

That would get the girl's going.


----------



## BluesRocker

Until they break


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! Is that a KT-88 in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Who do you go to in Oregon Marty?



I made a mistake. It was Washington. Joe's backyard.

Michael Mabry
145 Bryant Hill Rd
Woodland, WA. 89674


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> All I could think of was that I never knew you could get that much crunch from a 12AU7. I've broken a few tubes in stupid ways in my life, and the sound is always the same. I stepped on a nice EL84, sat on a 12AX7, all sounded the same.





Yeah, it's never a good sound! Then you see the getter flash go white...not a good feeling!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I made a mistake. It was Washington. Joe's backyard.
> 
> Michael Mabry
> 145 Bryant Hill Rd
> Woodland, WA. 89674



Thanks Marty!


----------



## solarburn

Alright Marty I got the toobs today. I see what you mean about getting that Northern out of its tube jacket. Just need to be patient and careful. I was both.LOL

Looks like I will have to wait until tomorrow though. The wife is sleeping off some " make me not remember you're sticking a tube into my stomach(endoscopy) serum".

I put the Northern in V1 of the NT for now. I'll run both tubes through it first and then move to the Monza.


----------



## solarburn

Scott PM me your addy. You're getting these next.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Scott PM me your addy. You're getting these next.



PM Sent Joe! 

Thx Brother! 

And Thanks Marty for doing this! 

I can wait to see how we all come out on this.


----------



## solarburn

ok I got to play for a bit while the wife had a smoke and a latte.

First was the Northern 12AX7. I liked this one. Pretty balanced. Solid lows, mids and the highs are not strident or harsh in the Night Train. There is one problem with it though. Its a bit microphonic. Its ringing here and there while playing. At least the ringing doesn't take over...yet. It definitely rings out when tapping on it. I've had worse though. Sometimes you can put microphonic tubes in the PI slot and the microphonics won't be audible. I'm not interested if it works in the PI. I'm just judging it in V1 for its tone only.

I played it with the amps own gain and used guitar volume to clean up with and it responded great. Cleaned right up and still maintained its balanced foot print. Winding it back up is where I like it and it gives a nice crunch. Holding on to higher notes turns into singing feed back and it easy to pop off ZZ Top harmonics when digging in. When I boosted with the Dano TOD it all lit up as usual. The Dano never fails at punching out an already solid setting. Clear singing saturation yet will clean up from the guitar.

So the tube was not harsh, boomy or hollow sounding. Like I said it has a nice balance to it. Too bad it was microphonic. I would just send it back to the Tube Store for another one cause I do like how it performed in the NT. I'm not going to bother with it in the Monza. That amp will just magnify its microphonic ringing. I ain't kid'n either. I can get away with some microphony in the NT. The Monza hell no. Its either good or not in it.LOL


----------



## solarburn

The 7025 is a cleaner tube. I'm getting some good sounds out of it but I don't like it as much as I liked the Northern. I bet this one would be a good tone tube in a Fender circuit. The crunch was not what I like but it did still stay fairly warm. At least it wasn't sterile. Boosting gave a good clean warm saturated gain. On the neck pup it sounded great! A decent tube but its crunch is its short coming compared to the Northern.

Tomorrow I will try it in the Monza and see how it sounds in that circuit. It will be different there and my guess is it might be a bit too clean but at least warm and not sterile. I don't know yet so that remains a guess at this point. More to follow then on the 7025 preferred series.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> PM Sent Joe!
> 
> Thx Brother!
> 
> And Thanks Marty for doing this!
> 
> I can wait to see how we all come out on this.



Even though the Northern is microphonic I would try it out unless Marty wants it back now to get it replaced. The ringing wasn't over taking the tone at all. Just audible here and there while play'n and of course noticeable when tapping on it. I still got a solid play out of it and I really liked it. Who knows what it will do in your chosen amp circuits until you actually pop it in.


----------



## BluesRocker

That Northern sounds pretty nice Joe..

You think, minus being micro-phonic, it is worth the price?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not going to ask for a replacement. We will test it as is.

I'm holding back on my review, but I will state that Joe's Northern Electric was slightly ringing in my DSL401 and TSL122. More so in the 122. If cranked up around four, it became more noticeable in the big amp.

I'm curious to see what Alan has to say about microphony issues and the 7025 in a Fender circuit.


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys I will test them through my Black Heart Little Giant.. Very simple circuit.. Has fender cleans and Marshall break up


----------



## MartyStrat54

I also wanted to add that the TSL122 is more bass heavy amp than the little 401. The TSL really taxed the NE 12AX7 in V1. However, according to the Tube Store, the NE is supposed to kick ass in combos. This tube has a little bit of a problem and I fear it will only get worse.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm not going to ask for a replacement. We will test it as is.
> 
> I'm holding back on my review, but I will state that Joe's Northern Electric was slightly ringing in my DSL401 and TSL122. More so in the 122. If cranked up around four, it became more noticeable in the big amp.
> 
> I'm curious to see what Alan has to say about microphony issues and the 7025 in a Fender circuit.



They are probably at the office. I wasn't in today, so I'm sure they came. That's the way it works.

I'm still getting used to the Vintage Modern and seeing what works in it. I've got a ribbed plate Tele in it now that is sounding pretty sweet. I'll try the 7025 in the Fender. It's going to have its work cut out for it trying to replace that Sylvania 5751. 

What are you doing as far as the next person in line? Do you have a mailing list?


----------



## BluesRocker

After you is me Alan..


----------



## RiverRatt

That's what I thought but I didn't know if there was something official.


----------



## BluesRocker

Actually, I am not too worried about if I am next or not.. I just remember that it was only You, Joe, Scott and I who volunteered to test them.. I may be wrong


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll try to put them through their paces tomorrow night and bring them to you on Saturday. It probably won't take long to test. That means I'll have to get up early enough on Saturday to break my rig down and get to Nashville with it. 

On an aside, I think I may have a buyer for the DSL. 

Saturday is going to be fun!


----------



## solarburn

Just to add I had the NT cranked to 3pm so I did no low volume testing. I did do both 7.5/15watt modes though.

Cody I don't know how much the Northern cost but minus the microphonics its a nice performing tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

Sweet! I hope you get to sell your DSL.. And Just wait til you get to play that VM through Greenbacks.. Man, you will never go back to another speaker..


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cody I don't know how much the Northern cost but minus the microphonics its a nice performing tube.




I just looked on TTS website.. They are $58 ea.. OUCH!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I just looked on TTS website.. They are $58 ea.. OUCH!



No I would not get one for that. I have plenty that sound great and none of them cost that much or were microphonic.

I would draw the line at $40 on a comparison to some of my NOS/ANOS tone wise on these and that's with no audible microphony.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah thats what I figured.. I bought a nos Telefunken for less than what they want for the NE.. Geez.. Why does glass and some metal shit cost so damn much


----------



## Gtarzan81

BluesRocker said:


> Actually, I am not too worried about if I am next or not.. I just remember that it was only You, Joe, Scott and I who volunteered to test them.. I may be wrong



I could do the 7025 on the 6100


----------



## RiverRatt

That's what I've been thinking, too. I have never paid that much for a single tube EVER.


----------



## solarburn

I had no idea the Northern was that much hehe. I prefer my RFT in V1 of the NT due to how it colors the mids with more meat. So I paid $40 for a mint NOS RFT 12AX7. I don't feel it bettered the RFT anywhere(dynamics/feel/tone)in my amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

Gtarzan81 said:


> I could do the 7025 on the 6100



I have a 7025 in the V1 slot in the 6100.. Makes Channel 1 a dream clean Channel..


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I had no idea the Northern was that much hehe. I prefer my RFT in V1 of the NT due to how it colors the mids with more meat. So I paid $40 for an NOS RFT 12AX7. I don't feel it bettered the RFT anywhere in my amp.



I love an RFT in V1.. It has some chunky low mids.. I love that about them.. I had one in my VM for a while, but where the VM all ready has a nice low end crunch it kinda over done it IMO.. Too bad my RFT is with my SLP.. I would like to hear it in this 6100


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I love an RFT in V1.. It has some chunky low mids.. I love that about them.. I had one in my VM for a while, but where the VM all ready has a nice low end crunch it kinda over done it IMO.. Too bad my RFT is with my SLP.. I would like to hear it in this 6100



I had it in my Marshall for awhile until the Funken/Ray BP or Shita/BP V1/V2 punch came along.

It found a home in the NT one day when I was board and decided to roll a bit in it. Found that meat flavored mids came over in V1. Not real striking but enough to put a smile on my face. The NT at 3pm on the volume sounds great. Most peeps play them too low and walk away with a lack luster performance. I know on alot of tube amps the sweet spot can usually be had at half volume. On the NT that is not the case at all. Got to be @ 3pm to my ears. Hell if it didn't have a decent sweet spot it would have gone home.

It ain't no 2203 or SL though. EL 84 amps are cool...the 2 I have but I love me the EL 34 Marshall's!


----------



## solarburn

Well my friends...I have to cut out for the night. I will be back tomorrow to share the next roll from the Monza. See you homo's...I mean homies then.


----------



## MM54

On a brief note on Preamp Tubes other than the NE's and the other ones you all are testing out, I'm happy to say I got a couple Sylvanias for use as Utility Tubes for less than $10 a piece. It's always nice to get ANOS for less than CP costs


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well homo's...did you read anything from this guy? Since we are talking RFT's and Telefunkens.

eBay Guides - The Tubeking's Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes

European ECC83s are generally sought after for their warm sound (with exceptions -- Telefunken, for example). 

Telefunkens are not used in guitar amps as much as other ECC83 types. I have found that the smooth plate Telefunken lacks personality in a guitar amp and does not really overdrive well. The ribbed plates are a little better in this regard.

However, there is a good place to put a Telefunken smooth plate in a guitar amp... in the phase-inverter slot (usually the last slot closest to the power amp tubes.) I have found that this can add some 'clarity' and '3-D' effect to your overall sound. 

RFT is famous as a great hard rock 'crunch' tube in a guitar amp. It is favored by many Marshall and Mesa players for this reason. 

If you are interested in trying the RFT ECC83, it is best used in the 'overdrive' pre-amp slot in your guitar amp. You probably would not want to use it in the main pre-amp slot (V1), since it is not an overly detailed tube. A really good combination that I use in some of my amps is a Mullard in V1 and an RFT in V2 (overdrive). This will give you a great general tone and a fantastic warm distortion.

JOE-He sort of goes against what you stated about the RFT's. However, I don't agree with everything he had to say.


----------



## BluesRocker

Telefunkens are not used in guitar amps as much as other ECC83 types. I have found that the smooth plate Telefunken lacks personality in a guitar amp and does not really overdrive well. The ribbed plates are a little better in this regard.

?????????????????????

Bullshit


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ...but I love me the EL 34 Marshall's!



You need to Experience the KT66 magic, bro!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> On a brief note on Preamp Tubes other than the NE's and the other ones you all are testing out, I'm happy to say I got a couple Sylvanias for use as Utility Tubes for less than $10 a piece. It's always nice to get ANOS for less than CP costs



Yeah I just bought 27 RCA's, Raytheon's and GE tubes for $90. They all tested real high on a TV-7 tester. I'm looking at another batch of American tubes to buy as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey, this thread is getting busy again. Kewl.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Telefunkens are not used in guitar amps as much as other ECC83 types. I have found that the smooth plate Telefunken lacks personality in a guitar amp and does not really overdrive well. The ribbed plates are a little better in this regard.
> 
> ?????????????????????
> 
> Bullshit



I read every review/guide I come across. They are always good for a laugh or two. You really wonder if the reviewer even owns a tube amp, much less the actual tubes being reviewed. 

Anyone remember the old Sears catalog descriptions where they would pick out the most mundane feature and emphasize it? Like "21 frets for ease of playing" or "2 Powersound pickups for ease of playing", or "Six inline tuning machines for ease of playing", etc.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I hate critic shit.. Its bull shit.. I like having multiple opinions from actual everyday users


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ok I got to play for a bit while the wife had a smoke and a latte.
> 
> First was the Northern 12AX7. I liked this one. Pretty balanced. Solid lows, mids and the highs are not strident or harsh in the Night Train. There is one problem with it though. Its a bit microphonic. Its ringing here and there while playing. At least the ringing doesn't take over...yet. It definitely rings out when tapping on it. I've had worse though. Sometimes you can put microphonic tubes in the PI slot and the microphonics won't be audible. I'm not interested if it works in the PI. I'm just judging it in V1 for its tone only.
> 
> I played it with the amps own gain and used guitar volume to clean up with and it responded great. Cleaned right up and still maintained its balanced foot print. Winding it back up is where I like it and it gives a nice crunch. Holding on to higher notes turns into singing feed back and it easy to pop off ZZ Top harmonics when digging in. When I boosted with the Dano TOD it all lit up as usual. The Dano never fails at punching out an already solid setting. Clear singing saturation yet will clean up from the guitar.
> 
> So the tube was not harsh, boomy or hollow sounding. Like I said it has a nice balance to it. Too bad it was microphonic. I would just send it back to the Tube Store for another one cause I do like how it performed in the NT. I'm not going to bother with it in the Monza. That amp will just magnify its microphonic ringing. I ain't kid'n either. I can get away with some microphony in the NT. The Monza hell no. Its either good or not in it.LOL



Cool report Joe!

I am planning on running them in the MF and the 6100 at the least. The MF will show any microphonics right out of the gate with the gain and low end it can push. 

I am really looking forward to run the 7025 in V1 on the 6100. I have a Raytheon 7025 in there right now, I may have to record and A/B for the heck of it.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Interesting. I don't think even a 12BZ7 is half that hot. Hopefully by the time they get here I'll be able to test them in my Vintage Modern head with a proper 425A cab. I don't suppose anybody here gives a rat's ass what they sound like in a Fender?
> 
> I've still got the DSL too, so I'll give 'em a turn in it. I'm about so disgusted with the whole amp selling thing that I've about decided to keep it. I posted a decent pile of tubes on eBay over the last few days. If they pay off, I won't need the cash from the DSL sale anyway. It sucks that a great Marshall amp won't even bring $500. What's this world coming to? I just never saw myself as owning two Marshall amps. I'm lucky just to have one. I must admit I do like the idea of a DSL50/Vintage Modern 2266 stereo rig.



Man, it's just the economy. I've had to turn down lots of good deals because my income has dropped dramatically over the last year. You even sold your el34's before I could get the money up to buy 'em...which I got today btw...LOL!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry... I had to take the first solid offer. I've had more deals fall through lately than you would believe.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> On the B and K 707, 22 is considered nominal new. This represents 80 on a percentage scale. 30 is indeed 100 percent. The scale goes to 120. Generally, tubes that test around 35-35 are what I consider to be very high gain V1's.
> 
> The 707 is a very accurate and respected tube tester.
> 
> I have never had any 12AX7's read above 50 before in my four years of testing all sorts of 12AX7's.
> 
> Maybe Daniel will send out some different tubes. You know, one's that have been screened and tested.
> 
> It sort of sucks that I am sending these out, but this is what the Tube Store sent me. I guess a regular customer would get the luck of the draw and get one that was like 32-32, instead of 90-91.
> 
> I'll send Daniel an email and let him know what the tubes tested at.



I use an old Accurate Instrument Co. Tube Tester, model 157 that I inherited from my Dad. I rarely have a 12ax7, even new test much above 70% on the meter. I had some el 34's test near 80% that were new.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry... I had to take the first solid offer. I've had more deals fall through lately than you would believe.



That's Ok...I understand.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TUBE PORN-MISS JULY


----------



## BluesRocker

She is sexy Marty... I sure would like to mount her in my SLP


----------



## MartyStrat54

Platinum Grade-$110

That's actually a good price for a NOS/NIB tube.


----------



## MM54

I like silver plate tubes. They're shiny.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> TUBE PORN-MISS JULY



Shinny is sexy!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well homo's...did you read anything from this guy? Since we are talking RFT's and Telefunkens.
> 
> eBay Guides - The Tubeking's Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes
> 
> European ECC83s are generally sought after for their warm sound (with exceptions -- Telefunken, for example).
> 
> Telefunkens are not used in guitar amps as much as other ECC83 types. I have found that the smooth plate Telefunken lacks personality in a guitar amp and does not really overdrive well. The ribbed plates are a little better in this regard.
> 
> However, there is a good place to put a Telefunken smooth plate in a guitar amp... in the phase-inverter slot (usually the last slot closest to the power amp tubes.) I have found that this can add some 'clarity' and '3-D' effect to your overall sound.
> 
> RFT is famous as a great hard rock 'crunch' tube in a guitar amp. It is favored by many Marshall and Mesa players for this reason.
> 
> If you are interested in trying the RFT ECC83, it is best used in the 'overdrive' pre-amp slot in your guitar amp. You probably would not want to use it in the main pre-amp slot (V1), since it is not an overly detailed tube. A really good combination that I use in some of my amps is a Mullard in V1 and an RFT in V2 (overdrive). This will give you a great general tone and a fantastic warm distortion.
> 
> JOE-He sort of goes against what you stated about the RFT's. However, I don't agree with everything he had to say.



I wonder if he realizes that not all circuits give the same outcome regarding a given tube not to mention how each person's ears differ?

I always say pop them in and actually see. You may find someone's results pan out in yours or you may find you like them toobs in other spots.

I detail all my tubes. Boy do they shine!


----------



## MM54

Just nabbed two tubes, one being sold as "Fisher 12AX7" and one as "Audio Research"-something 12AX7. Looking at the structure and markings, I'm thinking one's an Amperex (Holland) and the other I think may have been a Telefunken smoothplate.

I'll post some good pictures when they arrive.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Just nabbed two tubes, one being sold as "Fisher 12AX7" and one as "Audio Research"-something 12AX7. Looking at the structure and markings, I'm thinking one's an Amperex (Holland) and the other I think may have been a Telefunken smoothplate.
> 
> I'll post some good pictures when they arrive.



I have a Fisher that is a Telefunken Smooth plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, here's my review.

First I tried the Northern Electric in the Vintage Modern. To get an idea in my head as to where this tube fit in, I first played the amp with a ribbed plate Telefunken (my favorite in this amp). Then I tried a Mullard shield logo 12AX7 I just picked up. Pretty good tubes for comparing an unknown. The Mullard is ultra-thick and smooth, and the Tele has some nice top-end sparkle without being harsh.

Surprisingly, I found myself liking the Northern Electric pretty well! It was missing a little of the upper mid crunch of Mullard and the highs weren't as defined as the Tele, but it is a really smooth, nice sounding tube. I'm impressed! It's a little on the dark side tonally, but I like that. I'd say it was pretty close to the Mullard tone-wise. AC/DC crunchy tones were great, and switching over to the HDR the tube had some nice, singing gain without being harsh. No microphonic issues with this tube whatsoever. If these were $15 or $20 instead of $50+, I'd have no problem using them and saving my NOS tubes for awhile. I'd much rather have a less-fancy box at a cheaper cost. 

The 7025 Select gets an all-around "Meh." First, I always think of a 7025 as a low-noise lower-gain 12AX7. Not this baby. It had the highest noise floor of any tube I tried in the Marshall. The mids had that cardboard-boxy quality that I associate with Russian tubes, and the highs were piercing. Having a moderate case of tinnitus, I played with this tube for about a minute before I had to quit. Since I said I would, I plugged it into the Fender DeVille. Still no go. The lows were nice and strong but the top end was still really intense. I mean when I played a full chord, the highest note on the treble strings was about all I heard. For my purposes, I'd carry this tube around as a spare in my road bag only because I wouldn't give a shit if it got broken.

Cody, these will be coming to you tomorrow.


----------



## solarburn

I finished off the 7025 in the Monza. It was ok in the Monza. A cleaner tube. I didn't have any harsh or strident highs. A bit lacking in mids. Noise floor was quiet. It sounded very similar to other 7025's I have had ANOS wise. Break up was fat but also a bit dull. I think its lack of mid character makes me pass on this one. Or what I prefer out of a 12AX7. 

I'm all done as well. Looks like it & the Northern are go'n out Monday to Scott. I didn't finish in time today for the mail.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-CharvelDan posted these pics. The bottom row is French made. Note the round micas. I thought they might be Mazda's, but I never saw a Mazda with a round mica. Any idea who really made these? Anyone? They are labeled Amperex.


----------



## RiverRatt

I saw those. Didn't want to open my mouth and look like an idiot. I'm looking at the tubemonger site now but I haven't found anything like them yet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They're Orange Globe Amperex tubes. I wonder if they were made outside of France and then relabeled? You know, like the RCA/Ei (Made in Gt. Britain) tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this out. Don't know if these are the tubes that Dan won but they are identical. Nice close-up pics. I'm stumped.

1 LOT 2 NOS AMPEREX 7025 TUBES (12AX7A 12AX7 ECC282) NR | eBay


----------



## solarburn

I put the ANOS 5751 BP back in V1 of the Monza and I swear the amp is playing with itself the way the overtones and musical feedback spills forth. I mean its moan'n and groan'n. I hope the amp is female cause that's how I role when the fingering is so intimate.

Alan...the clean up to full saturation with this tube in the Monza really is special all kidding aside. Very pleasing to my ears and playing style. I just had a Mini Watt in V1. It sounds good too but it can't match that 5751 for dynamics clean and saturated. Some of the stuff I'm get'n out of it when plucking strings or pick'n makes me blush its sooo sexy!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hellyeah! I really never gave a 5751 a second thought. I just thought the Stevie Ray/5751 thing was one of those BS stories that goes around, like all the Eddie Van Halen's crazy stuff. I just lucked into all those. I've sold a couple of the GE's to fund the purchase. I've still got a pristine NOS NIB Sylvania that I'll never sell. Like I said, they are possibly the most musical tube I've ever used. The Sylvanias are noticeably better than the GE's, too.

You liked the Select 7025? It must just be a variance in the two tubes. I'll wait and see if Cody notices the same thing I did. It may just be my wore-ass-out old ears!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think he won two lots of four. Although your right, those are the same round mica tubes.

I did a lot of searching and came up with nothing.


----------



## solarburn

Well the 7025 sounded great with the neck pup but like I said the crunch didn't do it for me on the bridge pup. It came out round, warm and fat full on but also had this dullness or anemic limpness until I boosted it. It sounded good boosted on both El 84 circuits. I found the mids weren't to my liking. I don't ever use 7025's any more so it wouldn't make it into my collection either.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hellyeah! I really never gave a 5751 a second thought. I just thought the Stevie Ray/5751 thing was one of those BS stories that goes around, like all the Eddie Van Halen's crazy stuff. I just lucked into all those. I've sold a couple of the GE's to fund the purchase. I've still got a pristine NOS NIB Sylvania that I'll never sell. Like I said, they are possibly the most musical tube I've ever used. The Sylvanias are noticeably better than the GE's, too.


----------



## BluesRocker

i think I have one 5751 tube, Alan gave it to me.. Its in the 6100..


----------



## solarburn

Yeah Cody I owe Alan a good one for it. I have one in mind...good thing I have 2 of them now thanx to Marty.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan gave me a few tubes in return for me surprising him with some speakers when he bought my VM... He sent me a JAN Raytheon 5751 (I think that is right), GE 7025 (which is awesome in V1 of the 6100, and a Sonatone 12AX7 which is in the 6100.. I love that Sonatone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's three people that said a 7025 sounds good in V1 of a 6100. Of course, they all were using NOS 7025's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ANOS (Almost New Old Stock) = Used Vintage

My new terminology.


----------



## BluesRocker

My lineup right now in the 6100 is as follows
V1- GE 7025
V2- RCA branded Mullard
V3- Raytheon Black Plate
V4- JAN Raytheon
V5- RI Mullard
V6- Sonotone
V7- RI Mullard

Power section is JJ 6L6GC


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Alan gave me a few tubes in return for me surprising him with some speakers when he bought my VM... He sent me a JAN Raytheon 5751 (I think that is right), GE 7025 (which is awesome in V1 of the 6100, and a Sonatone 12AX7 which is in the 6100.. I love that Sonatone.



I don't think I've tried a Sonatone...maybe Marty sent me one to try and I just don't remember. I know I don't own one. Its great when a tube really jives in an amp circuit. The "D" getter Shitas Alan and I gush over in our Marshall's didn't fare as well in both my EL 84 amps. In V1 of the DSL though man it was awesome.

Anyways its great we can get on here and treat each other to different gear. That's what makes this forum much more of a home IMO. We make this a true brutherhood!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> My lineup right now in the 6100 is as follows
> V1- GE 7025
> V2- RCA branded Mullard
> V3- Raytheon Black Plate
> V4- JAN Raytheon
> V5- RI Mullard
> V6- Sonotone
> V7- RI Mullard
> 
> Power section is JJ 6L6GC



Those 6100's have sooo many toobs!

I couldn't tell you what slot did what in that amp hahaha!


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, I tried all three of those out in my Black Heart, and the Sonotone really stood out as being musical and full of tone.. Next in line was the Jan Ray. The GE 7025 was great but for what the Black Heart does it was only good for clean


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those 6100's have sooo many toobs!
> 
> I couldn't tell you what slot did what in that amp hahaha!



I had to ask the guys on the 6100 thread to find out.. it is pretty confusing..

V1 is clean channel
V2a is crunch
V2b is lead
V3- V5 is Lead
V6 is Crunch 
V7 is PI


----------



## RiverRatt

That Raytheon is a JRP. Insane gain. Those are some of the consistently hottest tubes I've ever run across. Try it in the PI if you want to goose your amp a little.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got you a couple of JAN-Sylvanias for the non-tone slots (unless you like 'em there), a certain Electrohome, and one of the infamous Matsushita D-getters in the Tweaker. Also a couple of Russian 6P3S power tubes in the Tweaker that are unreal. They blew away my old 1959 Tung-Sol 5881's in that amp, and they sounded really, really good! I also put a pair of GE 6V6GT's in there for the Tweaker as well. I'm gonna regret getting rid of that amp - at least until the Tweaker 40 comes out


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I had to ask the guys on the 6100 thread to find out.. it is pretty confusing..
> 
> V1 is clean channel
> V2a is crunch
> V2b is lead
> V3- V5 is Lead
> V6 is Crunch
> V7 is PI



That's great info though. Man I would be lost for hours roll'n in it...whata ya mean its Tuesday and I missed a hell of a weekend!?LOL


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> That Raytheon is a JRP. Insane gain. Those are some of the consistently hottest tubes I've ever run across. Try it in the PI if you want to goose your amp a little.



LOL Thats what I meant.. Not JAN.. Hell I was close.. Had the J part right


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Got you a couple of JAN-Sylvanias for the non-tone slots (unless you like 'em there), a certain Electrohome, and one of the infamous Matsushita D-getters in the Tweaker. Also a couple of Russian 6P3S power tubes in the Tweaker that are unreal. They blew away my old 1959 Tung-Sol 5881's in that amp, and they sounded really, really good! I also put a pair of GE 6V6GT's in there for the Tweaker as well. I'm gonna regret getting rid of that amp - at least until the Tweaker 40 comes out




Did you try that Electohome in the V1 of the VM? I think you should give it a chance with the GreenBacks.. Cause it is a great sounding tube.. I have another one.. It is with my SLP chassis, which is in Mass. lol So If you do like it I do have a spare.. If not.. Ship'er back.. Ill put her to work


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Got you a couple of JAN-Sylvanias for the non-tone slots (unless you like 'em there), a certain Electrohome, and one of the infamous Matsushita D-getters in the Tweaker. Also a couple of Russian 6P3S power tubes in the Tweaker that are unreal. They blew away my old 1959 Tung-Sol 5881's in that amp, and they sounded really, really good! I also put a pair of GE 6V6GT's in there for the Tweaker as well. I'm gonna regret getting rid of that amp - at least until the Tweaker 40 comes out



Whoa! I remember you talking about how great those Tung Sol 5881's were in it. You been get'n some sweet tubes man!

Here that Tweaker 40 train a roll'n baby...yeah its gonna stop here...right here...at my door! Gonna stuff lightning in her and set her on fire!!!LOL


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan, this will be the first time I have ever tried out NOS power tubes.. Never could afford them.. lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

On 3-2-2010, I posted this on the 6100 thread, because no one knew for sure what the tubes did. I also posted this info on the Preamp Tube Thread. Additionally, I posted a list of tubes to use in the various slots, both CP and NOS. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> I am not a 6100 owner, but I am posting the following chart so that all 6100 owners know what the hell the preamp tubes do. I always recommend a high gain in V6 for the Crunch Channel and either V3 or V5 for the Lead Channel.


----------



## solarburn

Hell you been there done that Marty!

F'n amp's a tube hatchery I swear.


----------



## BluesRocker

yeah the 6100 does love deh t00bs.. But she does sound great.. I have been messing with different tones in it and I will say it is among the top best amps I have played on.. Not the best.. But up there.. 44564894456465341234136290814 tubes or 4.. It sounds good.. lol

I hope I dont have to retube this for a looooong time


----------



## solarburn

I just got an email from TGP:

Your access to the paid subscription "Supporting Member" will expire in the next few days. To renew this subscription you must visit...

If you do not extend your subscription, subscriber privileges will be removed.

What do you think guys? Should I renew or should I serve them a piping hot fart?


----------



## BluesRocker

I go with the fart


----------



## solarburn

Excellent choice.


----------



## BluesRocker

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_crvGziPn3g]YouTube - ‪Mr Burns Excellent‬&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

You have to pay to be on TGP?

Here's a big ole fart loaded with shit particles.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's no big deal, really. These 6V6's were given to me, I really don't have any need for them. The Egnater/Ruby's weren't all that bad for 6V6's. I'm just not a big fan of them. They have a compressed quality when you push them hard that I just don't care for. It's good for Neil Young covers.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> You have to pay to be on TGP?
> 
> Here's a big ole fart loaded with shit particles.


----------



## BluesRocker

They use gold pin tubes too..


----------



## Blacque Jacque

One for the tube rolling experts;

My 900 SL-X sounds fairly good as is, but I'd like to "juice it up" a little.
It has way more gain than I need & sounds a little flat, not awful, but a bit on the bright side & lacking that midrange warm "bark".

Current bottle compliment is as follows:

V1, V2, V3 - GT 12AX7
PI - Marshall branded ECC83
Power - 2 x Sovtek 5881.

A sticker inside indicates it was serviced recently & the guy I bought it from says it's been hardly used since then, the general condition of the amp tends to back this up too.

I have a small number of bottles on hand I can swap in:

2 x Ei long plate ECC83, not quite NOS, but VERY low hours.
1 x Brimar 12AX7/CV492, used.
2 x Sovtek ECC83 New.
2 x Marshall branded ECC83 dating to mid to late 90's, well used from my 20/20.

I also have 2 x JJ ECC83S new, but I don't have them to hand, and 2 x Ei ECC83 which are at least 15yrs old, but sound sweet in my JMP1.

I'm considering swapping V2 for a 5751 as I find the sensitivity control is down on about 1 & I'd like to open it up a little wider without a crapload of fizz.

I'm not after more gain, it has plenty. I'd like a bit more, shall we say _*bourbon*_ ? to the tone, it has the proof, but not the flavour.

I'm prepared to spend a little on another bottle or two, but I'm not in the position to shell out for a full set.

So, which way do I jump ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Look at the construction of the two 90's Marshall tubes. Do they look like the other Ei's you have?

Anyway, based on what you have, I would go with the Brimar in V1. Then the two Ei's in V2 and V3 and then I would roll some of the spare tubes to find a PI that I liked. I usually go with a stout PI tube as I feel it opens the amp up. Some describe it as a "3D" effect. I like to say it opens the amp up sonically.


----------



## solarburn

Well the 2 tubes we're testing will be getting to Scott on Tuesday the 12th. So we will have another opine com'n on these soon. I know Cody will be getting the other 2 very soon too.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Joe.. I got them today.. Met up with Alan to get the Tweaker, 1966 cab, and 1960B cab.. I am supposed to be getting rid of gear for school but I keep ending up with more


----------



## solarburn

Yeah that WAS quick hehe. Well you can always sell gear later right?LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan sold his Tweaker? I thought he liked it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well traded.. We made a deal on some stuff.. I think that we both are happy..


----------



## MM54

Got a pair of RFT EL34's from Alan in the mail today, hopefully I'll have time to test them out tomorrow


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think you will find those RFT's are mighty tasty sounding.


----------



## RiverRatt

I traded the Tweaker to Cody cause I just wasn't using it anymore and had too much stuff sitting around. Now I've got a Vintage Modern head sitting on top of a 425A cabinet full of greenies! Yummy! I haven't even taken the Telecaster out of the bag yet - I'm saving that surprise for when I can fully appreciate it! Plus, now I actually have room to turn around in there!

I did end up selling the DSL Cody - the guy called not 5 minutes after I left the Ramada. He was downtown at the Gibson shop and I got to see some incredible guitars in there. Dude was a good player, too. He brought out an EVH frankenstein strat that looked like the real deal and ripped it up with that DSL. The guy that was trying out the Crate in the parking lot didn't take it. It was humming really bad. The guy at Guitar Center said it was because power inverters aren't grounded properly. I ended up trading it in at GC for a Boss EQ pedal and a real-deal MIJ Ibanez TS9. I'm pretty happy with the way the day went, too! I may have to unleash the Vintage Modern tomorrow. Have to wait for all the church folks to get gone first. They are only around 1/4 mile from the house and yes, you can hear the Marshall loud and clear up there.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think you will find those RFT's are mighty tasty sounding.



Not only tasty, but rock-solid, too. The whole time I had them in the DSL, they never drifted more than maybe .3 mV or so. And, they'll keep that up for years.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Not only tasty, but rock-solid, too. The whole time I had them in the DSL, they never drifted more than maybe .3 mV or so. And, they'll keep that up for years.



They're in their boxes sitting on my amp with a couple other tubes waiting for testing


----------



## RiverRatt

They seemed to sound best in my amp at around 41mV. YMMV (or YPVMV).


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> They seemed to sound best in my amp at around 41mV. YMMV (or YPVMV).



Do you happen to know what your plate voltage was at that bias setting?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope, not for sure. Seems like it was right around 450V, but that was a couple of years ago. I may be thinking of my Ampeg.


----------



## MM54

Okay, I'll just aim for about 65%, which is where I usually set the bias to start with.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well the 2 tubes we're testing will be getting to Scott on Tuesday the 12th. So we will have another opine com'n on these soon. I know Cody will be getting the other 2 very soon too.



Cant wait! Fresh glass for rolling!


----------



## Blacque Jacque

MartyStrat54 said:


> Look at the construction of the two 90's Marshall tubes. Do they look like the other Ei's you have?
> 
> Anyway, based on what you have, I would go with the Brimar in V1. Then the two Ei's in V2 and V3 and then I would roll some of the spare tubes to find a PI that I liked. I usually go with a stout PI tube as I feel it opens the amp up. Some describe it as a "3D" effect. I like to say it opens the amp up sonically.



Thanks Marty, as soon as I get chance to open her up again, I'll give those suggestions a shot. I'll start with just the Brimar in V1 in order to see what difference each tube change makes.

I'll also check the bias on the 5881's, what should it be for the 50w ?

Any thoughts on a 5751 in V2 to ease off on the gain / compression ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

As far as biasing goes, you need to know your plate voltage.

I have mixed feelings about the 5751. The SLX is a high gain amp. Putting a 5751 in it will take it down a notch. If I were you, I would try a 5751 in V1 and see what that does for you. Then you could try the Brimar in V1 and the 5751 in V2.


----------



## MM54

Anyone know what old Voxes used as stock tubes? Won a "Vintage Vox 12AX7 Tube" on ebay for $6.71... the pictures were terrible, but for $6 (and $3 shipping) It's hard to go wrong with the oldies. I _think_ I could make out seams in the glass, which tells me it may be a phillips-made tube. Naturally I'll post good pictures here when I get it.

Long plates, Halo getter.

Edit: It looks like the micas may be a kind of rounded square, but it could just be the blurry pictures that I can't make out the little 'teeth' that stick out.


----------



## BluesRocker

Just fired up the Tweaker and I have the Northern Electric warming up in it.. Review to come soon.


----------



## solarburn

Right on Cody.

Shit I got to get to work now. I'll have to read your review in the morn'n.

Have fun!


----------



## BluesRocker

Gave it a quick run through.. It is a well balanced tube.. I like some of the character it brings..Has a nice punch and does cleans very well.. All in all.. It sounds good.. But compared to a Mullrd, or Tele.. It doesnt touch them.. Not worth the price that is on it, maybe knock about 20 bucks off it and it would be a rocking tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok, the 7025 to me was a totally different ball game.. I really liked it.. It seemed to be a cleaner, warmer tube.. It fit my style with the tweaker.. Set to a bit over a slight overdrive, she really sings.. I would say that I prefer this one over the Northern Electric.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow. Very different opinions here. I don't know if it's the different amps or different ears. I thought the Northern was a great tube. It gave my best NOS a run for their money in the Vintage Modern. Not worth $55 but I liked the smooth response. The 7025 was incredibly bright and a little thin in my amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Ok, the 7025 to me was a totally different ball game.. I really liked it.. It seemed to be a cleaner, warmer tube.. It fit my style with the tweaker.. Set to a bit over a slight overdrive, she really sings.. I would say that I prefer this one over the Northern Electric.



Cody, when you are done, contact Chuck Harmon for his address and send the tubes to him. Thank you.


----------



## MM54

What's the date code "03-52" on a GE equate to? The one I'm using now fucking ROCKS and I'm wondering why.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In that format it should be "third week" of 1952. That's an old one. They came out in 1947.


----------



## MM54

DAMN

Thats why I asked, I thought there was no way it was from '52 :eek2: I feel like I should stop using it...

No wonder it sounds so good  The construction inside is VERY precise and exacting, like the ribs in the plates are perfectly distinct lines, the plates are crimped/welded perfectly, the getter is perfectly straight, it's brilliant. I like it.

And I thought my '62 Mullard that blew itself up was old. (This GE was its replacement, and it kicks the Mullard's ass, honestly)


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it's YY-WW. I looked up one of my older GE's and it reads 58-17.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What is the 03 then? 1963? 1973?


----------



## MM54

Mine looks nothing like the one RR posted, even the print with the date stamp/factory code is different (vertical on mine).


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, you're right. They probably used several different dating systems. All the ones I've seen have been like the 5751 I posted. If if doesn't say 12AX7A it probably is older than my 1958.


----------



## MM54

It has no A, Just the classic, huge GE
12
AX7
USA
(Unintelligible dot pattern)


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Wow. Very different opinions here. I don't know if it's the different amps or different ears. I thought the Northern was a great tube. It gave my best NOS a run for their money in the Vintage Modern. Not worth $55 but I liked the smooth response. The 7025 was incredibly bright and a little thin in my amps.



Well figure in guitar/pups and speakers too along with dem ears hehe. Also the acoustics of the room we are in. My sound can change noticeably from warm to harsh just by me moving around while I'm playing. I have a sweet spot I like to play in while in my room. I always had to re-eq when going out to play.

The Monza is a darker/fatter amp TME's. I have the treble on the NT at 9am cause the bright voicing is just that. Also both my amps are being played deep into their power section being low wattage. The Veteran 30 doesn't have the high mid spike a Vintage 30 does so its a warmer/darker speaker too. Plus I have it backed into a corner and its OB so the bottom end is really present.


----------



## BluesRocker

I liked both tubes dont get me wrong.. The 7025 seemed more of my style.. I would buy both if the price was right..

Marty I pm'd Chuck.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not too hip on the 7025. It didn't like the 401 at all. Nor the 122. Yet some of us are giving it a good review. I guess I should have sent everyone all six of the tubes and then you could have commented on the variances between like tubes. One of the NE's was hotter than the other two. Two were pretty close as far as the triodes were concerned. One had a little spread to it.

One thing is for certain. In the past, a batch (lot) of tubes would all be pretty close in test values. These tubes seem to have a lot of "margin" to them. I wonder why that is? It looks like a manufacturer could run a batch of tubes that were all very close in respect to test scores.


----------



## BluesRocker

Looks to me that the quality spec of things have went down a whole lot


----------



## janarn

A friend just bought these tubes from a collector.
I'm trying out some of them this week, but there is a lot of tubes that I don't know in this collection. Please help me to find out if some of the tubes are good amplifier tubes.
Thanks.

BRIMAR 6L6 G 4k7 Y.8 England
BRIMAR 6L6 G B.V.A
GE (GENERAL ELECTRIC) 6L6 GC
GE (GENERAL ELECTRIC) 6L6 GC
GE JAN 6L6 WGB
GE 5881 CANADA LY188-5
GE JAN 6L6 WGB USA 84-33 8509 33173
MESA 6L6 GC STR 420
MINIWATT 6L6 GC USA 61EX1 274
MINIWATT 6L6 GC USA 62EX2 274
Mullard 6L6 G (30 m.v.) The Master Valve
Mullard 6L6 G
Mullard 6L6 G British WM TH4
PHILIPS 6L6 G
PHILIPS ECG JAN 6L6 WGB 34167 8613 AHR USA
RCA 6L6 7-29A (black tube)
RCA 6L6 7-29A (black tube)
RCA 6L6 GC AK
RCA 6L6 GC AK
RCA 6L6 GC USA 61EX1
RCA 6L6 GB usa 59EX9
RCA 6L6 GC USA BK
RCA HP 6L6 GC USA
RCA 6L6 USA MED MER (black tube)
RSD Sovtek 6L6 GC 85T14
RSD Sovtek 6L6 GB/GC 85T16
RAYTHEON 6L6 G
SHUGUANG 6L6 GC 46B
SHUGUANG 6L6 GC B3
SOVTEK 588/WXT Russia FENDER BEAMPOWER TETRODE P/N039214
SOVTEK 588/WXT Russia FENDER BEAMPOWER TETRODE P/N039214
SOVTEK 6L6 GC RUSSIA
TUNG-SOL 6L6 USA 322MK3 (black tube)
TUNG-SOL JAN-CTL-6L6 WGB USA
MADE IN CHINA 6L6 GCR
ULTRON 6L6 GC 52305
RCA 1614 USA 5-29A (6L6?)
RCA 1614 USA 5-29A

AUDIOTUBES:
BILLINGTON GOLD ECC 85 6AQ8 (4 )
MULLARD EL84 H8G Great Britain KM1 81k5
MULLARD E188 CC
GE JG-12AY7 USA 5639 180-3
SIEMENS E81CC (= 12AT7 / ECC81)
SIEMENS EL36 472 113 88H4
SIEMENS EL36 472
TUNGSRAM ECC40
PHILIPS E180CC (= 12AT7)
PHILIPS E180F
TELEFUNKEN EF804S (2 STK)
TELEFUNKEN 6AQ5 (= EL90)
GE 6AQ5 A 6H65 (= EL90)
TELEFUNKEN EF800 6AK5W (identical or close: CV5092)
TELEFUNKEN EF802

RECTIFIER:
SIEMENS EZ80 (6V4)

DIVERS RØR:
TRIOTRON AZ31 HCI 83EI
RAYTHEON ER 235 4 PILLAR
RAYTHEON ER WX12
RAYTHEON WD11 23
TUNGSRAM 11
RCA 6X5GT / EZ35
VALVO AZ4
RAYTHEON 01A
RAYTHEON 2A6
RAYTHEON V-99
RAYTHEON 6F7
GE 1631 56-52 188-5
RAYTHEON ER 112-A
RCA 811A USA 3-39
GE 2D21 CW 188-5
MULLARD EB34 H8G
MULLARD EF94
MULLARD EL821 6CH6
MULLARD EAM86
MULLARD 85A2
MULLARD E81L SQ Yr6 D5L2
MULLARD EL41 France
RCA 7591A
RCA JAN CRC 25Z6GT
RCA 7591A
JAN CNU 25Z6GT/G stock# 2J25Z6GT/G
2 STK RCA IRC-6AT6 usa
2 STK SIEMENS EM80 6BR5
3 STK RCA 6CX8
RCA 7591A
SER RTR 4142
2 STK TRIATRON EF11
10 STK PHILIPS EF91
SIEMENS E280F (7722)
2 STK RAYTHEON 6AN8A
Ei 6 C67 yugoslavia
RCA OB2
BRIMAR EF183 Remote cut-off pentode
PHILIPS E91AA 5726
TUNG SOL JTL 6AK5W
CHATHAM JAN CAH6 6AL5W
RAYTHEON JAN-CRP-OA2
SIEMENS D3A 7721
PHILIPS 6360 QQE03/12
SIEMENS E280F 7722
MINIWATT ECC40
2 STK JCR 9003
RCA 5651A
2 STK JG5670
2 STK RCA 6 SQ 7
HALTRON AZ21
HALTRON EBF32
SIEMENS C3m 1347185
TELEFUNKEN RV12P2000
2 STK RCA 75 usa
JG CV140 KB/K


----------



## RiverRatt

The RCA 7591A's are a ruggedized super 6L6GC. I wouldn't mind having a couple of those! The Mullard EL84 is good but not worth that much. All of the 6L6GC's are keepers with the exception of the Russian and Chinese ones. Be aware that the ones labeled 6L6G, 6L6GA and 6L6GB are NOT the same as the 6L6GC! You could damage an amp running those in place of a GC. 

5881 USA (or Canada) are good, too, but still not interchangeable with the 6L6GC. That's all that leaps out at me. I'm trying to work so I just skimmed the list.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The RCA 7591A's are a ruggedized super 6L6GC. I wouldn't mind having a couple of those! The Mullard EL84 is good but not worth that much. All of the 6L6GC's are keepers with the exception of the Russian and Chinese ones. Be aware that the ones labeled 6L6G, 6L6GA and 6L6GB are NOT the same as the 6L6GC! You could damage an amp running those in place of a GC.
> 
> 5881 USA (or Canada) are good, too, but still not interchangeable with the 6L6GC. That's all that leaps out at me. I'm trying to work so I just skimmed the list.



The G-bottle tubes are nice to look at though


----------



## MartyStrat54

Other than the 12AY7 and the 12AT7's, you don't have any preamp tubes. And these really are not anything I would run in V1.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

Got the tubes from Joe tonight! Well packed and no worse for wear. 

I see what you mean about that Northern Electric box! Sketchy! 

I am going to try and get them in at least on head tonight.

Marty - Who do these go to next????


----------



## MartyStrat54

You might have to hold on to them until you hear from me. I asked on the NE thread if anyone else wanted to review these. There were several guys last week, but now I'm not hearing from them. If no one else is game in a few days, I'll have you send them back to me.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> You might have to hold on to them until you hear from me. I asked on the NE thread if anyone else wanted to review these. There were several guys last week, but now I'm not hearing from them. If no one else is game in a few days, I'll have you send them back to me.



OK Marty, just PM me the address when you know.


----------



## MM54

Gotta love unexpected purchases... hopped on ebay for a minute to check a few things I'm watching (I'm getting tired of losing auctions because I'm at work... lost one by $3 and another by $103 :eek2:, this next one ends while I'm at home though ) and happened to punch in 12AX7 int eh search. To make a long story short, there was a Mullard with 4 minutes left, nabbed it for $19 

I'm done buying tubes for a while now, I've build up my stash a good bit (I'll post pics of the interesting ones when they arrive) and sufficiently drained my bank account for a while. Just that one last thing I'm trying to get ahold of one of...


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, you got me looking, too. I don't need any more tubes, either!

Check this auction out. A little information is a dangerous thing. Here's a guy selling two perfectly nice Ei silver plate ECC83's and calling them Mullards. I can see the Ei factory code on the left tube. Somebody's going to be disappointed. 

VINTAGE NOS MULLARD NEW 12AX7 TUBES, TWO | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

And yet another.. New NOS Mullard Tubes. You can see "RUSSIA" printed on one of them.

NEW NOS MULLARD NEW 12AX7 TUBES, THREE | eBay

EDIT: I just noticed that these two auctions are from the same seller!


----------



## MM54

Yeah, there's a lot of misinformation out there. I usually buy tubes from people who clearly don't know what they are, generally judging by what little info they give and my knowledge and the pictures. Sometimes though you'll get lucky with the plain and simple auctions though 

I particularly like when people have relabeled tubes, don't know what they are beyond the relabeler, and have them on Buy It Now for cheap and I can tell from the pictures what they are


----------



## chuckharmonjr

MartyStrat54 said:


> I made a mistake. It was Washington. Joe's backyard.
> 
> Michael Mabry
> 145 Bryant Hill Rd
> Woodland, WA. 89674



Joe's backyard or Joe's Garage?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8Afa0F-UBo]YouTube - ‪Frank Zappa - The Central Scrutinizer + Joe's Garage‬&rlm;[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I particularly like when people have relabeled tubes, don't know what they are beyond the relabeler, and have them on Buy It Now for cheap and I can tell from the pictures what they are



I've found some great deals that way, too. Then there's people like the ones I posted who call everything Mullard just because it has some seams in the top.

Did you see those Made in England Tungsrams? I'd like to give those a spin.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I've found some great deals that way, too. Then there's people like the ones I posted who call everything Mullard just because it has some seams in the top.
> 
> Did you see those Made in England Tungsrams? I'd like to give those a spin.



I haven't seen any Tungsrams for a while now, they're one of those tubes I'd like to give a try if I came across one at the right price.


----------



## sccloser

Ok, tube gurus....haha!

What would a Amperex ELL80 be used for?

Also, I have a 12AE7 RCA tube, I think it is for car radios from the tech sheet I read online. I would assume that this cannot be used in other applications?


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> I haven't seen any Tungsrams for a while now, they're one of those tubes I'd like to give a try if I came across one at the right price.



I picked up one for about $8 NOS but it was made in Hungary I think.


----------



## MM54

The ELL80 is a double power output pentode, so it would have been in the power section of, according to the info I'm finding, a television or radio.

The 12AE7 is a double triode, the sides have different charactaristics, it won't work in a guitar amp, the pinout is the same as a 12AX7, but the ratings/surrounding circuitry are off. Also, the gain factor of the two parts are 6 and 13, as opposed to a 12AX7's 100's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I couldn't take it, so I sent that seller an email. It won't do any good as the auction will be over in 18 hours. I just let him know that "Made In Russia" Mullards are not NOS. Someone has already bid $34 on these.

Look before you leap.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I couldn't take it, so I sent that seller an email. It won't do any good as the auction will be over in 18 hours. I just let him know that "Made In Russia" Mullards are not NOS. Someone has already bid $34 on these.
> 
> Look before you leap.



Is it weird that I generally look at the pictures fully zoomed with the addition of a magnifying glass before I even read the description of an auction ?

I don't trust anyone on ebay to know what they're talking about with tubes.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I couldn't take it, so I sent that seller an email. It won't do any good as the auction will be over in 18 hours. I just let him know that "Made In Russia" Mullards are not NOS. Someone has already bid $34 on these.
> 
> Look before you leap.



Yep, it's hard to feel sorry for people on things like this.

It might be worth a email to the seller or top Ebay though

The are falsely advertised.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Well I know I trust Marty. And yes, that is a helluva strong set you sold me. One helluva tone pack.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> The ELL80 is a double power output pentode, so it would have been in the power section of, according to the info I'm finding, a television or radio.



The first turntable/hi-fi I scored to rob tubes out of was a stereo model that used an ELL80 to power two separate class A amps. Apparently they aren't far off from being two EL84's in one bottle. It had an EZ81 rectifier and I got three nice 12AX7's out of it for $20, two of them the elusive Sonotone side-getters.


----------



## BluesRocker

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Just checked my email, and I got one from Joey.. Looks like my SLP will be done by the end of this week, and if not then for sure next week! 

Cannot wait!!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I haven't seen any Tungsrams for a while now, they're one of those tubes I'd like to give a try if I came across one at the right price.



These aren't Hungarian Tungsrams. There was also a plant in England that was owned by Philips. I'd _*really*_ like to check these out but I have a feeling they'll go pretty high.

2 x Tungsram 12AX7 / ECC83 Valves / Tubes - Tested | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Just checked my email, and I got one from Joey.. Looks like my SLP will be done by the end of this week, and if not then for sure next week!
> 
> Cannot wait!!!!!!!



Awesome, man! That thing gonna find a place on top of that new 1960A/B stack you got going on?


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, That will be its home.. Thats the only home for a SLP, on top of a 1960a and b stack


----------



## MartyStrat54

What does a runway model's hair and an SLP have in common? Volume. Lots and lots of volume.


----------



## BluesRocker

I would like to see their hair reach 128 dB


----------



## MartyStrat54

You likey the 128dB?


----------



## BluesRocker

Indeed I do... Nothing like a 128dB blowing right in your face


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Indeed I do... Nothing like a 128dB blowing right in your face



Let us hear some clips BR!!!

Hey, also from your post in the 6100 thread...

Tele ribbed plates work great in the PI position in a lot of amps. Decadent, I know, but they work really well.


----------



## BluesRocker

Mann, when she arrives there will be clips for sure..


I may have to try a Tele in the PI


----------



## MartyStrat54

> It'll Fluff Your Comforter...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Tele ribbed plates work great in the PI position in a lot of amps. Decadent, I know, but they work really well.



Funny you should say that. I just wrote a couple of posts with a link to a guy on EBAY that reviewed tubes and that was one of his comments, that is, to use a Telefunken as a PI tube.

In the past, I have tried a Tele in the PI. If you have enough good tubes go ahead and try it. 

Personally, I like a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI, especially in MV and NMV amps with just three preamp tubes. The Canadian Electro Home makes a good PI tube as well, especially if they are high gain tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> These aren't Hungarian Tungsrams. There was also a plant in England that was owned by Philips. I'd _*really*_ like to check these out but I have a feeling they'll go pretty high.
> 
> 2 x Tungsram 12AX7 / ECC83 Valves / Tubes - Tested | eBay



One of them has an I63 Mullard Blackburn code 



MartyStrat54 said:


> ...Personally, I like a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI, especially in MV and NMV amps with just three preamp tubes. The Canadian Electro Home makes a good PI tube as well, especially if they are high gain tubes.



I recently picked up a couple Sylvanias for less than $10 a tube to keep as spares. When I popped them into my amp for testing to make sure they were good (so I could leave feedback on ebay) I discovered they're really, really hot. I liked them quite a lot. I'll probably give one of them a shot as a PI sometime when I get the chance to roll tubes in my big amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> One of them has an I63 Mullard Blackburn code



Damn, your eyes are better than mine! I can't see anything on them. I63 would have been common to several Philips 12AX7's. It's just the type code. Did you see a B date code?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Funny you should say that. I just wrote a couple of posts with a link to a guy on EBAY that reviewed tubes and that was one of his comments, that is, to use a Telefunken as a PI tube.
> 
> In the past, I have tried a Tele in the PI. If you have enough good tubes go ahead and try it.
> 
> Personally, I like a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI, especially in MV and NMV amps with just three preamp tubes. The Canadian Electro Home makes a good PI tube as well, especially if they are high gain tubes.



Hey Marty,

I actually got the suggestion from working with Brian Sours recently (he has built some amps for Isaac Brock from Modest Mouse). I really like the results so far.

I also agree with the Sylvaina in the PI slot. 

And no Sir, YOU are the man!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, your eyes are better than mine! I can't see anything on them. I63 would have been common to several Philips 12AX7's. It's just the type code. Did you see a B date code?



B584 or B5B4 (I just look for the B ) Check out the last picture in the description, it's rather plain 

I'm going to post in a second about relabeled tubes


----------



## MM54

Relabeled tubes are the bomb. I'm really happy about this one, remember beforeI asked about what old Voxes rebranded? Well, I got a "Vintage Vox 12AX7" for $6.71 + $3 shipping. I only bid on it because I could see seams in the glass, well I got it today in the mail and took a quick look, and what do you know, right in the glass by the base...

I63
B5I4



I'll pop it in the amp to test out in a bit, I just got home from work and am in need of a shower at the moment


----------



## Marshall Mann

Score MM!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> B584 or B5B4 (I just look for the B ) Check out the last picture in the description, it's rather plain
> 
> I'm going to post in a second about relabeled tubes



I didn't even scroll down... Damn, they went for a decent price, too. Copper posts and all. Damn.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys, I have had a chance to roll them both in a few positions in the MF, the 6100, the Mesa and an Orange Rockerverb in for a re-tube. Say what you will about the MF, it really isolates a tubes characteristics and makes a great test bed. 

The Northern performed well in all applications. I did find some the microphonics that Joe mentioned (especially in the MF with the gain cranked and it is a bit noisy in the 6100 V1 and V2), but is wasnt too bad. It did best in the 6100 in V2 (see below). In the Mesa and the Orange, it was OK. The bass was very sweet to my ears, solid mids and a smooth top, a very well rounded tube IMO.

The 7025...not so much. It was brash, cold or a bit harsh in almost every position (except the set up below). It did OK in the MF and in V1 in the 6100. The big problem I had with it was the high end. It just wasnt there. 

So, the best combo I found was in the the 6100 with the 7025 in V1 and the Northern in V2 on the Red (Lead) channel. Very nice! It's like the Northern countered the 7025's bad qualities and rounded it out, and it did a good job of tightening up the bottom end.

So over all, the Northern was a nice tube. I agree with RR that is has a "Mullard-ish" quality to it. But for $68.00, it needs to be a GREAT tube. I would stick with NOS for the price. And longevity still has to be established. If this thing dies in 2 years like most CP tubes, NOS or a more affordable CP still has my money over it. The 7025 can stay in the box. I dont think I would shell out the cash for it either, compared to NOS. 

Thanks again Marty! 

Who's next?????


----------



## johnfv

Marshall Mann said:


> ...has a "Mullard-ish" quality to it. But for $68.00, it needs to be a GREAT tube...


The CP "Mullard" sounds Mullard-ish to me. Is this one 4X more Mullard-ish?  Like I said, I'm afaid to try a $60 12AX7 (I might like it. )


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOHN-Do you want to try out the Northern Electric and the PS7025? If so, let me know by PM.


----------



## BluesRocker

Chuck would be closer to him.. I shipped out the tubes today.. He should have them by the weekend.. Maybe Monday..


----------



## Schafedog

I guess I was at the wrong thread earlier. Got sent here. Got an 08 jvm410h and a 1960 a cab. Not using any pedals right now. I'm sure the tubes are stock and want to replace them. I'm playing a 2011 LP studio deluxe and am looking for the sounds of msg,UFO,April wine Scorpions and Gary moore,. Muddy is how to describe tone now from all I've been reading. Don't want it too tinny sounding but with a forceful attack!I really like it loud if that helps. I guess tubes are a start. Any help out there?


----------



## MartyStrat54

HEY DOG-Let me throw a few things around. It's an '08 and the tubes are probably stock. Marshall does not use the best OE tubes. Usually Russian Sovteks or Chinese Shuguangs. These are cheap tubes. Now a lot of high gain guys like the Shuguangs, but they can be noisy. 

The bias on your power tubes could have drifted and this will cause a suck ass sound. I would recommend the EH 6CA7 or JJE34L power tubes for the 410.

For current production 12AX7's, I recommend the Tung-Sol for V1. The trick is to pay extra for the high gain/low noise option. You will want this for your V1 tube.

Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production

Try this JJ in V2. Get it high gain as well. (Low noise is your option.)

JJ ECC803s / Hi-Performance 12AX7

Try this EH in V3, V4 and V5. For V3 and V4, just get as is. No need to get high gain. For the PI (V5), order a high gain tube.

Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 Gold Pin

One other note. That 1960 cab probably has the G12T-75's. Not my favorite speaker. You might also want to think about a speaker swap.


----------



## Schafedog

Thanks,I will try it and let you know.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOHN-Do you want to try out the Northern Electric and the PS7025? If so, let me know by PM.


Thanks for the offer Marty, I'm heading out for vacation next week so probably wouldn't work out anyway. I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys think about 'em...


----------



## Blacque Jacque

MartyStrat54 said:


> Look at the construction of the two 90's Marshall tubes. Do they look like the other Ei's you have?



Ok I had a look at all the tubes I have on hand at the moment, no the Marshall ones look nothing at all like the Ei's I have.

The used Ei's are white print, marked Ei Yugoslavia ECC83, 2A1 00?, 16mm smooth plate, copper supports, ring (halo?) getter, 2 micas, distinct seams on top.

The "NOS" Ei's are gold print, marked Ei 12AX7E MADE IN YUGOSLAVIA, 2A1 04E, 17mm smooth plate, copper supports, ring (halo?) getter, 2 micas, distinct seams on top.

Apart from the difference in plate length, the internal construction looks almost identical.

The Marshall tubes are white print, marked Marshall ECC83, 10mm plates with a "ladder rung" close to each end & a curious stainless(?) clip holding the plate halves together, square getter mounted on it's points with a large dimple in it. No seams in the top of the tube. 4 micas, double bottom mica & two top ones spaced 4mm apart.

The Brimar is white print, very soft. Marked Brimar BVA 12AX7, it has what looks like a date code ??? ?63 (guessing), 17mm plate "3 rung ladder", copper supports, quite a large ring / halo getter, 2 micas. No seams in the top, slightly shorter than all the others & a bit flat topped.

Your thoughts appreciated.


----------



## RiverRatt

Your Marshall-branded tubes sound like they are probably Chinese. There are many different variations, but most all have that metal clip around the plates.

The Ei tubes should have a factory code that looks like ∩ with a dot in it. The digits after that will tell you when it was made. Not all Ei (or Philips tubes in general) have a factory and date code, so if yours don't it doesn't mean they aren't legit.


----------



## MM54

What's the general opinion of Amperex 12AX7's, and how does one tell them apart (I know there are different Amperex plants)?

I have one here that, in the etching is as follows:
[Amprerex Triangle] 1D2


I also have a tube here that I thought may have been a Telefunken due to the smooth plates, but there's no diamond on the bottom in the glass. The etching on it reads:
2A1
?2? (The second line is all mushed down when the base was attached to the globe)


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> What's the general opinion of Amperex 12AX7's, and how does one tell them apart (I know there are different Amperex plants)?
> 
> I have one here that, in the etching is as follows:
> [Amprerex Triangle] 1D2



I have some EL84's that were made in the Stittard, Holland factory. The factory code for them is "X". Do you have a copy of the Philips code book? There are PDF's all over the internet. It lists all the factory codes and tells you how to decode the date and type codes for most all Philips companies.

Here's a link to the PDF.

http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf



MM54 said:


> I also have a tube here that I thought may have been a Telefunken due to the smooth plates, but there's no diamond on the bottom in the glass. The etching on it reads:
> 2A1
> ?2? (The second line is all mushed down when the base was attached to the globe)



Seams on top? If it's not Telefunken it's most likely Ei.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was doing some research. Have you ever read this one? Another Myles Rose article. He says some informative stuff, but he still believes in the matched PI tube.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf

Now here is total BS. They have a tube tester/matcher that is accurate to .00002A measurement - super accurate. Do you think you need that in your Marshall?

Also, they list a 12AY7 as having a gain factor of 55. I don't think so, unless CP 12AY7's have a higher gain factor.

MATCHED Preamp tube - the <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">"TONE SECRET"</span>


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Was doing some research. Have you ever read this one? Another Myles Rose article. He says some informative stuff, but he still believes in the matched PI tube.
> 
> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf
> 
> Now here is total BS. They have a tube tester/matcher that is accurate to .00002A measurement - super accurate. Do you think you need that in your Marshall?
> 
> Also, they list a 12AY7 as having a gain factor of 55. I don't think so, unless CP 12AY7's have a higher gain factor.
> 
> MATCHED Preamp tube - the <span style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);">"TONE SECRET"</span>



He's why I first thought I needed a matched PI tube. I read that when I first got into roll'n tubes. I like Myles and he has alot of golden experience with tubes. I disagree with having to hit the power section with a balanced PI tube. There not HIFI amps. I just don't see a need for it and they cost more money.

By the way I've talked to Myles a few times. I like him.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I have some EL84's that were made in the Stittard, Holland factory. The factory code for them is "X". Do you have a copy of the Philips code book? There are PDF's all over the internet. It lists all the factory codes and tells you how to decode the date and type codes for most all Philips companies.
> 
> Here's a link to the PDF.
> 
> http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Philips/PhilipsCodeListAB.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Seams on top? If it's not Telefunken it's most likely Ei.



Brilliant, thanks for that PDF 

Yeah, it has the seams, so I figure it's an Ei. The mushed up part of the code does look like it could have the upside-down U with-a-dot thingy. I'll post pics before too long, I just need time (and energy) to test these tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> He's why I first thought I needed a matched PI tube. I read that when I first got into roll'n tubes. I like Myles and he has alot of golden experience with tubes. I disagree with having to hit the power section with a balanced PI tube. There not HIFI amps. I just don't see a need for it and they cost more money.
> 
> By the way I've talked to Myles a few times. I like him.



I followed his posts on the Gear Page for awhile but I don't go over there much anymore. He seems like a really likeable and accessible guy. I can't say that his ear doesn't hear a difference in a balanced PI. I never pay that much attention to the tube as long as it's strong.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I followed his posts on the Gear Page for awhile but I don't go over there much anymore. He seems like a really likeable and accessible guy. I can't say that his ear doesn't hear a difference in a balanced PI. I never pay that much attention to the tube as long as it's strong.



Its not whether he hears a difference...he just thinks its best if both sides of the triodes match so they are driving the power section equally. I believe he considers this optimum performance from the PI slot.

Hell I just put in what I have and my ears seem to like. I just won't pay extra for that matched preamp tube. I don't want to drive the power section equally from a matched PI tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I guess the math is there. I don't know where I stand on the issue. I've used a Matsushita for a PI that measured 29-21 on Marty's tester and the amp sounded great. I've also used a Raytheon JRP that tested 31-34 and it sounded good, too. I've still got a lot of rolling to do with the VM now that I'm starting to get used to it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Its not whether he hears a difference...he just thinks its best if both sides of the triodes match so they are driving the power section equally. I believe he considers this optimum performance from the PI slot.
> 
> Hell I just put in what I have and my ears seem to like. I just won't pay extra for that matched preamp tube. I don't want to drive the power section equally from a matched PI tube.



I understand the balanced PI theory, and I notice a big difference with a balanced PI, and it's just not a good difference to my ears. 

Every time I have tried a balanced PI (in every amp) it sterilizes the tone to my ears. A high gain lopsided PI will wake up the power section. And rotating the vales in and out of the push / pull sets will help offset any uneven wear.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> And rotating the vales in and out of the push / pull sets will help offset any uneven wear.



It's complicated stuff like this that makes me glad I have a 50-watt amp!


----------



## solarburn

I think the issue is do I need to drive the power section of a guitar amp with a matched/balanced preamp tube and sonically is it optimal? I think audibly it will always be subjective for the individuals ear. I think in HIFI amps driving the power section with a balanced preamp tube may be the ideal environment but not so in a guitar amp. Like Marty says there me be some pleasing effects to having an unbalanced PI tube. I'm unable to measure which one is best in a given PI slot outside of using my ears. Dem ears are the deciding factor for me. 

I believe Myles is convinced driving the power section equally is more important than any discernible audible outcome which is subjective anyways.

One conclusion for me is that I won't pay extra for the balanced preamp tube in any slot. For me it hasn't been proven optimal in a guitar amp as far as I have read and talked to techs and I am using my ears to decide what I like best. Not exactly scientific is it?LOL


----------



## sccloser

Ok, I am not so sure I understand all of the balanced phase inverter stuff, so let me ask a question...

Doesn't the p.i. supply the pre-amplified signal to the power tubes? If that is correct, then why would it matter if the signal is unbalanced? It is not like the there is unbalanced power being supplied, correct? And while there may be an advantage to a balanced signal in a hifi (you do not want the amps circuitry to color or shape the playback of recorded music) one of the advantages of a tube guitar amp is that it DOES color and shape the sound...it is contributing to the creation of the sound that we hear, not merely playing back a sound that has already been created.

Please, if I am wrong, tell me. I am just having trouble understanding why an unbalanced signal is wearing out tubes and why it is better to not have the power amp add to the creation of the tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In a guitar amp, you are never going to have a perfectly balanced signal. Power tubes, output transformer and preamp tubes and their circuits will not allow this to happen. If you could have a perfectly balanced signal, it wouldn't sound like a tube guitar amp.

I've said this many times, some guys actually use a 12DW7 in the PI slot. This is a 100/20 mu twin triode. This is especially true with harmonica players. Believe it or not, most of the guys who tried this could not tell the difference between the 12AX7 and the 12DW7. None of us are running a PI that is anywhere close to being lopsided like a 12DW7. Even a 12AX7 that tests 43-24 is not even close to being as lopsided as a 12DW7. You see where I am going with this?

I am getting tired of hearing people who still defend the need to run a perfectly balanced PI tube in a non-perfect guitar amp. There's a chance that you will make the tone worse by doing so.

A cathodyne PI only uses one triode for the PI function. There is no benefit to having it balanced. So for all you Peavey Classic guys, when you buy tubes don't bother with a balanced PI, it is a waste of your money. 

Also, running an unbalanced PI tube will really not wear out your power tubes in an uneven manner. I hear this, but it is another rumor I believe. If someone can find something to dispute this, please post a link.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Marty,

Have you tried the Black Sable line? 

Also, do you have a good line on, or stock of RFT 12ax7's? 

Thanks in advance!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Have you tried the Black Sable line?
> 
> Also, do you have a good line on, or stock of RFT 12ax7's?
> 
> Thanks in advance!



My source has gone up on the RFT's. Supply on these are dwindling. Not as bad as others but enough to raise the price another $10. Half a bill now for one.

PM'd


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey I just ordered some NOS NIB RFT's from Russia. They will be here in about two weeks probably. As Joe said, these are going up in price and $50 is actually a good price if the tube is new. 

When I get them in, my tester should be back and I can work something out with you if you like.


----------



## solarburn

Glad I got mine at $40 a pop now. I have a small lil' stash so I don't feel the need for any more plus they aren't my fav. Just a solid tone tube in known circuits. When I get another Marshall I will start off with the one/two punch. Something in V1 and the Raytheon BP in V2.LOL!

Fecking solid smack in the face proven Martimus double pumped Marshall tone stack!

Marty you should call it the "Double Pumper".


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Your Marshall-branded tubes sound like they are probably Chinese. There are many different variations, but most all have that metal clip around the plates.
> 
> The Ei tubes should have a factory code that looks like ∩ with a dot in it. The digits after that will tell you when it was made. Not all Ei (or Philips tubes in general) have a factory and date code, so if yours don't it doesn't mean they aren't legit.



Just Googled "Chinese 12ax7" & found a picture of a Shuguang which looks identical internally to the Marshall valves, including the anode clip & 4 mica discs, good call .

I'll have another close look at the Ei's tonight & look for that symbol, is there a reference online to decode the factory / date codes ?


----------



## johnfv

I bought a few balanced PI tubes and did not hear any significant benefit. Not worth the extra $ IMO. YMMV...


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Just Googled "Chinese 12ax7" & found a picture of a Shuguang which looks identical internally to the Marshall valves, including the anode clip & 4 mica discs, good call .
> 
> I'll have another close look at the Ei's tonight & look for that symbol, is there a reference online to decode the factory / date codes ?



Yeah, see this post above. It has a link to a PDF of the Philips guide.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how-299.html#post415958


----------



## MM54

Got another tube in the mail today, this one's a mullard, turns out to be an I61 with second-line code B0A. I haven't looked it up, but methinks that's rather early. The box it came in is making my house smell like cigarettes.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Got another tube in the mail today, this one's a mullard, turns out to be an I61 with second-line code B0A. I haven't looked it up, but methinks that's rather early. The box it came in is making my house smell like cigarettes.



That's that "smokey" character a vintage Mullard exudes mon.

You know if Cheech & Chong sold tubes you could smoke the tube box it came in...


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> My source has gone up on the RFT's. Supply on these are dwindling. Not as bad as others but enough to raise the price another $10. Half a bill now for one.
> 
> PM'd



Thanks Joe and Marty. $50 might be a little rich for my blood.

I am looking for an alternative to JJ's for a "darker tone", preferably NOS.

Any ideas?

Also, so no one has tried the Black Sable???? Is it an overpriced Sovtek?


----------



## solarburn

Alan. I dropped that other BEL AX7 I had on the floor. Slipped right out of its jacket and bent 3 legs.

With surgical precision I bent them suckers back. Popped it in the V1 slot of the Monza and fired it up...

Perfect work'n condition.LOL!

The Monza is so unforgiving with bad tubes you know right away whether its good or not. Whew! Lucked out on that one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So you dropped a valuable tube? I'm glad it is okay. I hope that by next week you will be saying the same thing. Hopefully it won't turn white on you.

Them BEL's are nice...and hard to come by.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Joe and Marty. $50 might be a little rich for my blood.
> 
> I am looking for an alternative to JJ's for a "darker tone", preferably NOS.
> 
> Any ideas?
> 
> Also, so no one has tried the Black Sable???? Is it an overpriced Sovtek?



You want to demo one of my mint NOS RFT's just to see if its what you want? If you like it I'll give you a special "PAC NW Neighbor" price!

FYI: There is another NOS tube with a "dark" personality but it will be more than the RFT's are going for. I only have one so I can't help you out on it. Its the BEL 12AX7. Me and Alan really like like it. Marty may have some but its gonna cost more than half a bill for sure. They are hard to find.

Let me know about the RFT...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So you dropped a valuable tube? I'm glad it is okay. I hope that by next week you will be saying the same thing. Hopefully it won't turn white on you.
> 
> Them BEL's are nice...and hard to come by.



I know. Pissed me off I was so sloppy picking that lil' box up with the end open a smidgen.

I 'll play it for awhile to see. Hopefully I didn't prematurely end its life!


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, man, that sounds like some of my luck. I bounced a G.E./Mullard off a Les Paul and a guitar stand. It didn't survive as well as yours did. It still works, but it doesn't sound like it did.

Another dark tube: the Matsushita D getter from the 1950's. They are pretty hard to find as well, but they can sound like a more agressive Mullard.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, man, that sounds like some of my luck. I bounced a G.E./Mullard off a Les Paul and a guitar stand. It didn't survive as well as yours did. It still works, but it doesn't sound like it did.
> 
> Another dark tube: the Matsushita D getter from the 1950's. They are pretty hard to find as well, but they can sound like a more agressive Mullard.



Its not the first time I've dropped one but so far I haven't killed one doing it.


----------



## MM54

I've managed not to drop any 12AX7's, but I have dropped other tubes from my stash, some of them very far onto concrete, and it did nothing in terms of killing it


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this one out. Most of the print has worn away, but it has 17mm plates and the date code is B8G. I thought everything that old had the shield logo! Anyway, it turned out to be a fantastic tube. I had to trade some 5881's for it and a few others, but I think it was worth it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alan. I dropped that other BEL AX7 I had on the floor. Slipped right out of its jacket and bent 3 legs.
> 
> With surgical precision I bent them suckers back. Popped it in the V1 slot of the Monza and fired it up...
> 
> Perfect work'n condition.LOL!
> 
> The Monza is so unforgiving with bad tubes you know right away whether its good or not. Whew! Lucked out on that one.



Hey Joe,

You need to get a hold of one of these!






A pin straighter. Any good tube roller should have one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Purdy. Very nice.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You want to demo one of my mint NOS RFT's just to see if its what you want? If you like it I'll give you a special "PAC NW Neighbor" price!
> 
> FYI: There is another NOS tube with a "dark" personality but it will be more than the RFT's are going for. I only have one so I can't help you out on it. Its the BEL 12AX7. Me and Alan really like like it. Marty may have some but its gonna cost more than half a bill for sure. They are hard to find.
> 
> Let me know about the RFT...



Hell yes neighbor! Thanks Joe! I will pay postage if you want? Just say the word. 

Do you need my addy again???

Do you have a pick of a BELL? I will keep my eyes open for one.


----------



## solarburn

I've never seen one of those. Work good?

Yeah I do it the labor intensive way...

Pair of needle nose pliers, grab pin close to the base and bend carefully. Before I've had a couple of cups of coffee I might add.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, man, that sounds like some of my luck. I bounced a G.E./Mullard off a Les Paul and a guitar stand. It didn't survive as well as yours did. It still works, but it doesn't sound like it did.
> 
> Another dark tube: the Matsushita D getter from the 1950's. They are pretty hard to find as well, but they can sound like a more agressive Mullard.



Thanks Allan! I have passed on a few Matsushita's in the past, sounds like I made a mistake!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've never seen one of those. Work good?
> 
> Yeah I do it the labor intensive way...
> 
> Pair of needle nose pliers, grab pin close to the base and bend carefully. Before I've had a couple of cups of coffee I might add.



Yea, it works wonders! Some of the bigger bottles wont fit, but most will.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hell yes neighbor! Thanks Joe! I will pay postage if you want? Just say the word.
> 
> Do you need my addy again???
> 
> Do you have a pick of a BELL? I will keep my eyes open for one.



K. I still have your addy so I will prolly mail it tomorrow or Monday. Don't worry bout postage. Its never an issue.

I'll see if I can find a pic of a BEL...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> You need to get a hold of one of these!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A turbo hitter for your weed. Any good tube roller should have one.



Fixed!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> K. I still have your addy so I will prolly mail it tomorrow or Monday. Don't worry bout postage. Its never an issue.
> 
> I'll see if I can find a pic of a BEL...



Thanks Brother!!!! 

I would offer the same, but I am purdy sure you have (or have had) just about anything I have on hand!!!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Allan! I have passed on a few Matsushita's in the past, sounds like I made a mistake!



Well the D getter Shita is special. Cool thing is sellers don't know that and Matsushitas sell pretty cheap as it is.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Fixed!





Or a "one hitter" as I used to say!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Brother!!!!
> 
> I would offer the same, but I am purdy sure you have (or have had) just about anything I have on hand!!!



No problem Scott. A few of us here do it all the time. Hell you're right next door so that makes shipping time and cost nothing.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Fixed!



Noice!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

Any info on a 12bh7 or a 6gu7? I found a couple in a junk sale find. They are 9 pin layout, but I have not done any digging on them yet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had a bunch of these Matsushitas, both D and O getters. If you remember I sold like 24 of them to a tube dealer in the KC area. I think I sold them for $12 each.

Then you guys start claiming they are the second coming of Christ. Maybe I didn't try the D getters out that close, but I don't remember them giving me WOOD. I think I still have a few left in the obscure bin and I think they are O getters.


----------



## solarburn

Ok Scott here are the BELS:


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Ok Scott here are the BELS:



Thanks Joe! Kinda look like Telles in a way? 

India huh? Crazy!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now this, this gives me WOOD!



MartyStrat54 said:


> TUBE PORN-MISS JULY


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I had a bunch of these Matsushitas, both D and O getters. If you remember I sold like 24 of them to a tube dealer in the KC area. I think I sold them for $12 each.
> 
> Then you guys start claiming they are the second coming of Christ. Maybe I didn't try the D getters out that close, but I don't remember them giving me WOOD. I think I still have a few left in the obscure bin and I think they are O getters.



Yeah the "D" getter kicked ass in V1 in the DSL. Aggressive with the perfect amount of hair...not fizz. I think next we decided the "O" Slant getters were better than flat. They became less aggressive and to my ears more trebley with the flat "O"'s.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I had a bunch of these Matsushitas, both D and O getters. If you remember I sold like 24 of them to a tube dealer in the KC area. I think I sold them for $12 each.
> 
> Then you guys start claiming they are the second coming of Christ. Maybe I didn't try the D getters out that close, but I don't remember them giving me WOOD. I think I still have a few left in the obscure bin and I think they are O getters.



I know a most guys dont like "dark tubes", but I have a soft spot for em! Hell, I still like my CP JJ's in some stuff. And I find that when I A'B the JJ's for people on re-tubes, they will go for them about 50% of the time.

Let me know if you want to get rid of a couple Marty. I know they are O getters, and not the "second coming" D getters. But I'll give m a shot.


----------



## solarburn

So HOT! Have you got to use one?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Scott-1970s production MINT NOS BEL ECC83/12AX7 Tubes. Repacked in white boxes from bulk. Tubes look identical to Amperex/Philips Tubes from the Heerlen Plant. Not surprising since BEL was one of the Philips/Mullard OEM plants in India setup with TOT (Transfer of Technology) from Philips. Labels are not perfect due to bulk storage.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Now this, this gives me WOOD!



Shiny


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I know a most guys dont like "dark tubes", but I have a soft spot for em! Hell, I still like my CP JJ's in some stuff. And I find that when I A'B the JJ's for people on re-tubes, they will go for them about 50% of the time.
> 
> Let me know if you want to get rid of a couple Marty. I know they are O getters, and not the "second coming" D getters. But I'll give m a shot.



The Shitas are like Mullards. The "D" getter is better than any Mullard I have. 

The Slant "O's" are good too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-That Mazda Silver Plate will make you sound and play better. Only $110 for a platinum grade NIB.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Scott-1970s production MINT NOS BEL ECC83/12AX7 Tubes. Repacked in white boxes from bulk. Tubes look identical to Amperex/Philips Tubes from the Heerlen Plant. Not surprising since BEL was one of the Philips/Mullard OEM plants in India setup with TOT (Transfer of Technology) from Philips. Labels are not perfect due to bulk storage.



Thanks Marty! 

Is this from a seller???


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The Shitas are like Mullards. The "D" getter is better than any Mullard I have.
> 
> The Slant "O's" are good too.



But the O getters are brighter?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-That Mazda Silver Plate will make you sound and play better. Only $110 for a platinum grade NIB.



I think I'd put it in a trophy case...after playing it once hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> But the O getters are brighter?



Like a Mullard. Not brighter than.


----------



## solarburn

Hey Marty...the fake guitar pic in your sig isn't showing now.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Like a Mullard. Not brighter than.



Got it, thanks Joe!

Preface - Application is everything! But.... 

I find that Mullards can be too "tight" for me sometimes (if that makes sense)???? I lieks me a little low end rumble more often than not.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The Shitas are like Mullards. The "D" getter is better than any Mullard I have.
> 
> The Slant "O's" are good too.



You know, I said that too until I got this current Mullard. I've never had one of the long plate ones. If this is a legit 1958 Mullard it's one of the oldest ones I've seen. I don't think it would be a 1968 with a 3-digit code and the double-post getter and long plates. It is everything a Mullard should be - crunchy with a lot of punch and definition, and really smooth mids. 

A lot of the D getter Shitas that I've found have been labeled "Realistic". They are really, really nice tubes in a Marshall. I picked up a couple of Matsushita labeled ones a few weeks ago but they aren't very strong and the tone isn't there. If I'm reading the date codes right, they are all from 1958-59.


----------



## solarburn

Here is another fav of mine. Dynamic in V1. Well balanced.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You know, I said that too until I got this current Mullard. I've never had one of the long plate ones. If this is a legit 1958 Mullard it's one of the oldest ones I've seen. I don't think it would be a 1968 with a 3-digit code and the double-post getter and long plates. It is everything a Mullard should be - crunchy with a lot of punch and definition, and really smooth mids.
> 
> A lot of the D getter Shitas that I've found have been labeled "Realistic". They are really, really nice tubes in a Marshall. I picked up a couple of Matsushita labeled ones a few weeks ago but they aren't very strong and the tone isn't there. If I'm reading the date codes right, they are all from 1958-59.



Did you find that Mullard on ebay?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Marty!
> 
> Is this from a seller???



Yes, Tubemonger and they are completely out of stock. Gee I have some. I must be bigger than Tubemonger. I got some BEL's too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BTW-KCA NOS Tubes wants $60 for an RFT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, Tubemonger and they are completely out of stock. Gee I have some. I must be bigger than Tubemonger. I got some BEL's too.



Shit Tubemonger hasn't had BELS for over a year or more. They had 1 and I bought it. It was 80's stock and kicked arse. Haven't seen any there since.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> BTW-KCA NOS Tubes wants $60 for an RFT.



When I was buying RFT's TM had the best prices around out of the online stores/brokers. Everyone else was $10 to $!5 more. Prolly still will.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Marty...the fake guitar pic in your sig isn't showing now.



Well that means that the site I got it off of has removed the picture. That's the gamble you take when you "borrow" a picture.

Of course, Tubemonger wasn't happy that I had "borrowed" some of their tube pictures and had them posted on my website. I got a nice little email from them. You know, "Remove these pictures immediately or..."

How about a new picture of a girl with huge glands?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you find that Mullard on ebay?



No, I just lucked into it. A guy called me last week and had seen my ad and wanted to know if I had any 5881's for sale because his amp had taken a shit on one of his. I took a couple of pairs over there and he didn't have any cash, so I ended up with the Mullard and about 7 EL84's. Three of them are the Sittard EL84's I was telling you and Marty about. Dude builds amps as a hobby and had this Fender-ish amp he'd built. I think it was pretty close to a 5E3 but he was trying to get the 5881's working in it. He already blew up a pair of GE 6L6GC's in it. I kinda felt sorry for him. I didn't intend to get rid of two pairs of 5881's. 

I've got more EL84's now than ever, and I don't even have an amp that uses them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Shit Tubemonger hasn't had BELS for over a year or more. They had 1 and I bought it. It was 80's stock and kicked arse. Haven't seen any there since.



So you bought there last one?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that means that the site I got it off of has removed the picture. That's the gamble you take when you "borrow" a picture.
> 
> Of course, Tubemonger wasn't happy that I had "borrowed" some of their tube pictures and had them posted on my website. I got a nice little email from them. You know, "Remove these pictures immediately or..."
> 
> How about a new picture of a girl with huge glands?



I use TM's pics here all the time.LOL

Girls and tubes...yeah. I think that works...


----------



## RiverRatt

I was looking at TubeMonger's BEL listing today, too. I had the plastic out and then noticed that they didn't have any! I wish their stuff didn't come up on searches if it's out of stock.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So you bought there last one?



Yeah. I liked it so I kept waiting for them to get more. They never did as far as I saw or knew. I quit looking until I asked you recently.

Good thing you're around when these other guys can't refill.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I was looking at TubeMonger's BEL listing today, too. I had the plastic out and then noticed that they didn't have any! I wish their stuff didn't come up on searches if it's out of stock.



Well you got their last one anyways hahahaha!


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't realize that Marty had a supply of BEL's or I would have already had a couple. Marty, you should do a monthly newsletter or something and list tubes and prices.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know that Hot Tubes lists prices, but can I actually list prices here on the thread, or does it have to be listed in "Member Classified?"


----------



## MM54

I doubt anyone will mind if you include it here


----------



## BluesRocker

I would say that you can list them here Marty.. I dont think anyone would mind if you did.. Im sure Adwex and Alex wouldnt mind at all since you are a valuable member to the forum.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, and you've sold tubes to half the people here and we all know you are a really nice guy who always deals fair. That's a great service, especially for the new guys. I don't think anyone here would mind at all, but it's really up to the admins to decide.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I know that Hot Tubes lists prices, but can I actually list prices here on the thread, or does it have to be listed in "Member Classified?"



I cant imagine AD would have a problem with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'll contact Adwex and clear it with him.

Hey...my new pic is not a chick with big glands. It's my Fat Strat. I won't have to worry about this picture vanishing. I own it.

I checked the website where I got the "FAKE" picture and the page it was on is no longer there.

Thanks for the heads up, Joe. I probably wouldn't have noticed it right away.


----------



## solarburn

Just got back from get'n my daughters some milk shakes. I had this chick cut me off where I had to steer into the second lane to miss her. Then at the next light she gets ahead of me because of traffic in my lane and pulls into McD's drive through beating me to it. 

Couldn't believe she was going to the same place. To add insult to injury and taking all the time she wants fuck'n backs up the drive through with your's truly waiting right behind her...fuming and trying not too go off in front of my 12yr old. I had to piss on top of it all. I felt the rage com'n...but I fought the good fight and won.

Now I can yell it on my keyboard. Take your time bitch!!!!!! We don't mind!!! F'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel a lil' better.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I'll contact Adwex and clear it with him.
> 
> Hey...my new pic is not a chick with big glands. It's my Fat Strat. I won't have to worry about this picture vanishing. I own it.
> 
> I checked the website where I got the "FAKE" picture and the page it was on is no longer there.
> 
> Thanks for the heads up, Joe. I probably wouldn't have noticed it right away.



No probs man. The new pic looks nice! Haught!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Just got back from get'n my daughters some milk shakes. I had this chick cut me off where I had to steer into the second lane to miss her. Then at the next light she gets ahead of me because of traffic in my lane and pulls into McD's drive through beating me to it.
> 
> Couldn't believe she was going to the same place. To add insult to injury and taking all the time she wants fuck'n backs up the drive through with your's truly waiting right behind her...fuming and trying not too go off in front of my 12yr old. I had to piss on top of it all. I felt the rage com'n...but I fought the good fight and won.
> 
> Now I can yell it on my keyboard. Take your time bitch!!!!!! We don't mind!!! F'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I feel a lil' better.



Yeah, the "me first" driving attitude seems to be taking over the NW man! It's getting bad down here too! 

Way to take the high road Joe! Dont let em get under your skin.


----------



## solarburn

So self centered man. Whew!


----------



## RiverRatt

I drove for several miles with some asshole cruising in the left lane yesterday. I'm too aggressive - the first car-length opening I got on the right I went around his slow ass in about 2 seconds. Left him far behind. The older I get the less tolerance I have for stupid drivers. 

A few weeks ago I was waiting at a gas station for like 5 minues, staying back out of the way like I should, and this car noses up in front of me, and then gets pissed off when I pull up in front of them. I should probably stay at home. There's just too much of that shit nowadays. I don't even go through drive-thru's anymore if I can help it.


----------



## BluesRocker

When I drive, I own the road..me and my little Civic


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> When I drive, I own the road..me and my little Civic



Every time I've seen that Civic it's had Marshall gear stowed in it. You DO own the road!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I drove for several miles with some asshole cruising in the left lane yesterday. I'm too aggressive - the first car-length opening I got on the right I went around his slow ass in about 2 seconds. Left him far behind. The older I get the less tolerance I have for stupid drivers.
> 
> A few weeks ago I was waiting at a gas station for like 5 minues, staying back out of the way like I should, and this car noses up in front of me, and then gets pissed off when I pull up in front of them. I should probably stay at home. There's just too much of that shit nowadays. I don't even go through drive-thru's anymore if I can help it.



I couldn't believe her. Its like she was oblivious to anyone else. Really noticed that as we all sat...and sat...and sat while she made up her mind waiting for our turn. She got 4 Happy Meals and a Coke. I watched them pass her the order. All that waiting for that.

There are times I want to go all Dirty Harry ya know...

You know...LOL!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I drove for several miles with some asshole cruising in the left lane yesterday. I'm too aggressive - the first car-length opening I got on the right I went around his slow ass in about 2 seconds. Left him far behind. The older I get the less tolerance I have for stupid drivers.
> 
> A few weeks ago I was waiting at a gas station for like 5 minues, staying back out of the way like I should, and this car noses up in front of me, and then gets pissed off when I pull up in front of them. I should probably stay at home. There's just too much of that shit nowadays. I don't even go through drive-thru's anymore if I can help it.



I agree Alan! I did this tonight on my way home! Guy was pulling a trailer in the left lane while people were passing him in the right. The rules are pretty simple. Stay right unless you can pass!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Every time I've seen that Civic it's had Marshall gear stowed in it. You DO own the road!



No shit!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I drove all the time in the thick, Phoenix traffic. Whenever someone cut me off or did something aggressive, I would just go down to Van Buren Street and get a blow job. That worked for me every time.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I drove all the time in the thick, Phoenix traffic. Whenever someone cut me off or did something aggressive, I would just go down to Van Buren Street and get a blow job. That worked for me every time.



Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Glad I wasn't drinking my coffee when I read that. Would have been all over my screen!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I drove all the time in the thick, Phoenix traffic. Whenever someone cut me off or did something aggressive, I would just go down to Van Buren Street and get a blow job. That worked for me every time.



There were days when I had to go get the BJ six or seven times. I didn't get much work done, but at least I didn't kill anyone.


----------



## solarburn

Ok hahahha! I'll quit. Don't want to turn this into one of our "chick threads". it'l get out of control fast!LOL!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Damn Joe! You always bring the goods! 

She looks like she is packing a nice set of meat curtains behind that zipper!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've had polishing cloths that were bigger than those shorts. Good grief, there's only about a square foot of denim used on those suckers.

:eek2::eek2::eek2::eek2:


----------



## solarburn

Guess the last one was too shy...pic wouldn't show.


----------



## solarburn

More porn...






These Mullards are only $150 a piece.

Brand New, MINT NOS NIB Rare 1961 Mullard CV4035 M8214 Box Plate Wrinkle Glass Military production. Tubes have Dual Logos, Old Shield M8214 in front and CV4035 on the back. S.I.D, R.E.M.E Donnington stock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yummy, yummy, yummy, I shot my love in her tummy and her egg is about to break.

The one in the blue "outfit" could be a contender for wifey #3.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> More porn...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These Mullards are only $150 a piece.
> 
> Brand New, MINT NOS NIB Rare 1961 Mullard CV4035 M8214 Box Plate Wrinkle Glass Military production. Tubes have Dual Logos, Old Shield M8214 in front and CV4035 on the back. S.I.D, R.E.M.E Donnington stock.



And next year they will be $225 each.


----------



## solarburn

She likes toobs too!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> And next year they will be $225 each.



Already too rich for my pocket. Wish I had them to sell though. One day I could buy an amp with them...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Joe. I wish the title of this thread was "Boobs 'n Toobs."


----------



## solarburn

I think we have one of those already right? hahaha!

Tubes and Boobs...I like it!

Bet our tit count would double.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah. You would only have to sell eight of them and you would have 12 big bills to buy that SLP you want.


----------



## solarburn

Yep. Absolutely. If I only had them now. I'd just kick back until it was time to redeem them for the amp.LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that what you still want? A 100 watt SLP?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is that what you still want? A 100 watt SLP?



That or a 2203 and lets not forget the Superbass. Any of these or even a 1987X. Love these Marshall's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In the right environment I can see using a 1959, but damn, I love my JMP 2203. I have a hot, rare Dario Miniwatt in V1 and that amp is a beast.

Yeah a JMP or JCM 2203 is one mean SOB. I think mine is fatter sounding since the Wild man tinkered with it. Throw an OD in front of it and you can tear it up.

My 2204 is both a hot rod 2204 and a 1987 with solo boost. In a way, it is like a two channel, but the EQ is shared. Still, it is more flexible than a regular 2204. It has a extra 12AX7 so it has more gain than a stock 2204. Even so, I play my 2203 more. The TSL has spider webs on it now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd give her $50 just to spank her ass cheeks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well fellars, I'm going to hit the hay. I stayed up past 2 AM last night. (Wilder called me.)

I enjoyed chatting with you.

Joe-The chick pics were priceless. Thank you.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> In the right environment I can see using a 1959, but damn, I love my JMP 2203. I have a hot, rare Dario Miniwatt in V1 and that amp is a beast.
> 
> Yeah a JMP or JCM 2203 is one mean SOB. I think mine is fatter sounding since the Wild man tinkered with it. Throw an OD in front of it and you can tear it up.
> 
> My 2204 is both a hot rod 2204 and a 1987 with solo boost. In a way, it is like a two channel, but the EQ is shared. Still, it is more flexible than a regular 2204. It has a extra 12AX7 so it has more gain than a stock 2204. Even so, I play my 2203 more. The TSL has spider webs on it now.



Well I'd rather be a JMP 2203 out of the 2. Man you are set up nice between those 2 Wilder stroked. Very cool. Love the SL's even though they are so damn loud. I'd boost it anyways so I'd find a quieter sweet spot hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Alrightee Marty. Think I'm gonna watch a movie. Night fellas!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well fellars, I'm going to hit the hay. I stayed up past 2 AM last night. (Wilder called me.)
> 
> I enjoyed chatting with you.
> 
> Joe-The chick pics were priceless. Thank you.



G night Marty!

Thanks for your help!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alrightee Marty. Think I'm gonna watch a movie. Night fellas!



Yep, I'm out too....

Thanks guys! Have a good night!


----------



## RiverRatt

Saturday's gleanings (so far)...

I found a couple of nice 6L6GC's and three loose 12AX7's. One doesn't know if it's a GE or RCA, and the CBS is the first one I've found. It dates from 1956!






Then, he brought out his box of Military tubes. Holy cow! Can you say "5751"? Nine GE's and three Sylvanias!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Mmmmmm, tasty Alan!


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Bloody hell !!!!!

and I was pleased just to bag a Telefunken from Ebay


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys, ever (dread! :Ohno: ) dare to think how much you have spent on glass????


----------



## Marshall Mann

Blacque Jacque said:


> Bloody hell !!!!!
> 
> and I was pleased just to bag a Telefunken from Ebay



It's an addiction BJ! And it only gets worse!


----------



## BluesRocker

How about this.. How much have you spent on strings over the years?


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> How about this.. How much have you spent on strings over the years?



Good questions Cody. I remember when I could buy a pack for less than $2


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, I dont remember them that cheap


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I spent $17 on the batch I got today. I'll bet I can sell that RCA 6L6GC black plate and make my money back


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah, I dont remember them that cheap



Thats cuz I'm OLD BR! 

So a rough guess is about $540.00 ($3 average a pack, 6 packs a year X 30 years).

I am thinking my glass fetish is way past that at this point.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I spent $17 on the batch I got today. I'll bet I can sell that RCA 6L6GC black plate and make my money back



Guaranteed!


----------



## Marshall Mann

The Mesa in it's current set up with RCA 6L6's (Silvertone branded) and Kenrad Rectum Friers (Raytheon 12ax7's under the caps).






It really likes these RCA's.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> How about this.. How much have you spent on strings over the years?



I worked at a music store for 10 years or so. I _never_ bought strings. I tried a lot of different ones that way, too. I always came back to GHS Nickel Rockers 11-50 though.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I worked at a music store for 10 years or so. I _never_ bought strings. I tried a lot of different ones that way, too. I always came back to GHS Nickel Rockers 11-50 though.



I am a die hard GHS (boomers) guy as well.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am an Ernie Ball user.. Though I do grab some D'Addarios too.. I have never tried GHS.. But one set that I did like that I tried were the Kurly ones.. Those lasted forever.


----------



## RiverRatt

I use Boomers on a Strat sometimes. Gotta have nickel on the Les Paul.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I use Boomers on a Strat sometimes. Gotta have nickel on the Les Paul.



Havent tried the nickel for quite a while, I may have to give them a spin again.


----------



## MM54

I may have mentioned it here before, but I've mainly been discussing it in the Class5 Thread - If any of you are interested in the CA10, please send me a PM so I know. I'm putting some information at the bottom of the post to get you caught up if you're not familiar with what I'm talking about  Orders will be accepted from the 17th through the 22nd, after which it may be up to another 10 months before I am able to build again.

Description:
The CA10 is a 10W, Class-A operating all-valve amp. Features a british-voiced preamp featuring two 12AX7's, Treble/Middle/Bass tonestack, and gain control. The power section is a single-ended Class-A EL34, but is also compatable with 6L6 tubes if desired. With no master volume, the CA10 is designed to be cranked. When volume is an issue, however, the internal attenuator is able to bring the power down to a whisper without losing any of the poweramp distortion. Gain levels run from punchy clean through 80's metal, proving that simplicity can be versatile.

Clips:
Mostly Improv-Metal-ish. (Apologies for the poor recording quality)
Paul's Soundcheck - My friend came to help demo the amp.
Matt's Soundcheck
Something Heavy (Paul)
Shredding-ish (Paul)
I don't even know what this is (Paul)
And I butchered some Rush

Pictures from the bench:
















More pictures may be added as I take them.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I am a die hard GHS (boomers) guy as well.



Me too!


----------



## solarburn

Morn'n fellas!


----------



## solarburn

Good grief Alan. Can you say"score"!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I think I have a spare or two for my Fender now!


----------



## RiverRatt

I was trying to get in touch with another of my HAM radio guys today. He likes to trade stuff. He likes EL34's, EL84's and 6L6GC's. I have several unmatched ones that I thought I'd take by and see what he had to trade but I couldn't get in touch with him. He has a B&K 747 tester that I'd love to own someday.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Morn'n fellas!



G'day Joe!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> G'day Joe!



Looks like I'll be getting the RFT out on Monday. Wasn't able to muster soon enough today.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like I'll be getting the RFT out on Monday. Wasn't able to muster soon enough today.



No worries Joe, I appreciate it!


----------



## solarburn

Being a graveyard shifter I only have a certain time frame to get to it. Plus I was coming off my weekend(days off)so I slept in. Me and my daughters watched movies all night long. They're off for the summer as you know and they wanted to party with dad. Cost me on my Comcast bill.LOL!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Being a graveyard shifter I only have a certain time frame to get to it. Plus I was coming off my weekend(days off)so I slept in. Me and my daughters watched movies all night long. They're off for the summer as you know and they wanted to party with dad. Cost me on my Comcast bill.LOL!



They are worth every minute man! My Daughter is 20 next moth and thinks I dint know anything. Enjoy em while they will still hang with you man!!! It's goes so fast....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Did you buy all of those 5751's or did you just take a picture of them?

Those 6L6's look nice. If that CBS tube has any life left in it, they are nice. Of course a red tip CBS is the most sought after CBS 12AX7.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Did you buy all of those 5751's or did you just take a picture of them?
> 
> Those 6L6's look nice. If that CBS tube has any life left in it, they are nice. Of course a red tip CBS is the most sought after CBS 12AX7.



No, they are mine! I couldn't believe how many I found. And this was from a guy I'd already picked through once. He brought out the rest of his collection this time. There was a 12AX7 box labeled IEC Mullard, but it just had that weird RCA with the GE label in it. Some of the boxes were labeled 5960 and I just happened to look in one and they all turned out to be 5751's. Those Sylvanias are some wicked good tone tubes. 

I could take some of my wife's nail polish and make the CBS a red tip.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I could take some of my wife's nail polish and make the CBS a red tip.



Yeah and sell it on EBAY as a red tip CBS.


----------



## sccloser

I found an old Sylvania 12av7 NOS. it was in some old tubes I have lying around, which are mostly old tv tubes. I think you can interchange it with 12ax7, but is have less of a mu factor than the 12au7, so probably not too useful.

I feel like Charlie Brown...I got a rock! haha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ADWEX told me that I have to list any pricing over at the "Members Classified." 

Just so you know.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ADWEX told me that I have to list any pricing over at the "Members Classified."
> 
> Just so you know.



Just give us a heads-up when you do.


----------



## sccloser

What happened to all the tewb dewds?


----------



## RiverRatt

Just a lull in the action. I've been busy putting casters on my amp and getting my recording stuff set up. My Mac's hard drive bit the dust. It's an older one so I really wasn't planning on fixing it but then I found the right hard drive. So, I've been installing system software and updates. Always updates. You have to update this application for that application to work, but you can't download THAT update until you update the OS, then update the application you had to update so that you can update the application you originally wanted to update. It took me most of a weekend and I'm just now getting it all working again. This is usually the point where something completely unexpected will happen and sink the whole project.


----------



## solarburn

Yep. Been work'n and family stuff so can't be here as much. Early in the work week.LOL!

I hate bills!

Ok. Small rant over...hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Oh...and I mailed Scott an RFT 12AX7 today. We'll see if he likes it. He wanted to try a darker tube other than a JJ 83S.


----------



## MM54

I'm here as always, just nothing to say


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh...and I mailed Scott an RFT 12AX7 today. We'll see if he likes it. He wanted to try a darker tube other than a JJ 83S.


 
You are the man Joe!!! 

I'm anxiously waiting!!! 

Hey, I jumped at a last minute bid on flea bay for some Bell India's. If the posting is correct (we all know how things can roll on Flea Bay!) I got three NOS/NIB for $42.00.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I come and go like the tide.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> You are the man Joe!!!
> 
> I'm anxiously waiting!!!
> 
> Hey, I jumped at a last minute bid on flea bay for some Bell India's. If the posting is correct (we all know how things can roll on Flea Bay!) I got three NOS/NIB for $42.00.





The ones that ended at 5:30 a.m. PDT??? I thought I *had* those! If I'd known you were going for them I wouldn't have pushed the bid up. I think we must have been the only two bidding.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The ones that ended at 5:30 a.m. PDT??? I thought I *had* those! If I'd known you were going for them I wouldn't have pushed the bid up. I think we must have been the only two bidding.



Not too long ago I cost my dad over $10 by accidentally bidding against him for two days on a pair of Sylvania 12AX7's


----------



## Marshall Mann

Yep! That was me! Sorry RR! I didn't mean to snipe from a friend!!! I checked it at Midnight and it was still at $37.00, so I bid $50.00 and went to bed. Woke up Sunday and they were in the hat!


----------



## MM54

I just realized, I don't think I've mentioned here that I have a B&K 707 on the way


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, y'all be nice. I got my Mac going with drum loops and all. I recorded this between getting home from work and dinner this evening. It was kinda rushed and uninspired but I wanted to see how everything was working, so I just recorded this riff I've had in my head for awhile. I called this "BluesRocker" as all the guitars and amps were stuff that I got from Cody this summer except for my daughter's J-bass. Just for the record, I had the 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon in V2, IDK in V3 and a pretty hot Ei in V4. The guitar was the MIM Tele. I think the only effect was the TS9.

BluesRocker.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I just realized, I don't think I've mentioned here that I have a B&K 707 on the way



That's great, man. I wish I could score a decent tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Yep! That was me! Sorry RR! I didn't mean to snipe from a friend!!! I checked it at Midnight and it was still at $37.00, so I bid $50.00 and went to bed. Woke up Sunday and they were in the hat!



Be sure and let me know how good they sound.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, y'all be nice. I got my Mac going with drum loops and all. I recorded this between getting home from work and dinner this evening. It was kinda rushed and uninspired but I wanted to see how everything was working, so I just recorded this riff I've had in my head for awhile. I called this "BluesRocker" as all the guitars and amps were stuff that I got from Cody this summer except for my daughter's J-bass. Just for the record, I had the 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon in V2, IDK in V3 and a pretty hot Ei in V4. The guitar was the MIM Tele. I think the only effect was the TS9.
> 
> BluesRocker.mp3



You're a  man play'n like that. Somewhere out there some panties dropped...


----------



## RiverRatt

It started out okay but when I hit the second solo verse I had a WTF AM I DOING moment and lost it completely. Next time I'll get my head right before I start trying to play lead


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Yep! That was me! Sorry RR! I didn't mean to snipe from a friend!!! I checked it at Midnight and it was still at $37.00, so I bid $50.00 and went to bed. Woke up Sunday and they were in the hat!



Nice low mids. These are a smoother or darker tube as well. At least my 2 are...correction 1 is.LOL


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It started out okay but when I hit the second solo verse I had a WTF AM I DOING moment and lost it completely. Next time I'll get my head right before I start trying to play lead



No worries man. I could go back in my room now and play spontaneous pooh. Sometimes I'm just full of pooh.

That my friend was not pooh.

Now...more clips please...


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, y'all be nice. I got my Mac going with drum loops and all. I recorded this between getting home from work and dinner this evening. It was kinda rushed and uninspired but I wanted to see how everything was working, so I just recorded this riff I've had in my head for awhile. I called this "BluesRocker" as all the guitars and amps were stuff that I got from Cody this summer except for my daughter's J-bass. Just for the record, I had the 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon in V2, IDK in V3 and a pretty hot Ei in V4. The guitar was the MIM Tele. I think the only effect was the TS9.
> 
> BluesRocker.mp3



Damn that sounds good Alan.. I feel honored by the title.. Kinda made me blush a bit..


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, y'all be nice. I got my Mac going with drum loops and all. I recorded this between getting home from work and dinner this evening. It was kinda rushed and uninspired but I wanted to see how everything was working, so I just recorded this riff I've had in my head for awhile. I called this "BluesRocker" as all the guitars and amps were stuff that I got from Cody this summer except for my daughter's J-bass. Just for the record, I had the 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon in V2, IDK in V3 and a pretty hot Ei in V4. The guitar was the MIM Tele. I think the only effect was the TS9.
> 
> BluesRocker.mp3



Hell yes Alan! My foot was tap'n!

Like Joe said, nice push on the rhythm at 250K HZ'ish! Nice warm lower mids!


----------



## RiverRatt

Really the only difference in the lead and rhythm tones was just switching from the neck pickup to the bridge pickup. That combination with the VM is so chunky - this amp is pretty damned close to the tone I've been chasing.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Really the only difference in the lead and rhythm tones was just switching from the neck pickup to the bridge pickup. That combination with the VM is so chunky - this amp is pretty damned close to the tone I've been chasing.



Looking forward to hearing what the BEL does in it. If it sux send it back.LOL!

Should be a good "thang" in that VM. Even chunkier!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love the blues. Way to go, ALAN.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I recorded this between getting home from work and dinner this evening...


Sounds good Alan. Nice smooth rhythm tone, serious bite on the lead.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> It started out okay but when I hit the second solo verse I had a WTF AM I DOING moment and lost it completely. Next time I'll get my head right before I start trying to play lead



Spontaneous is the way to go...that's often when we are the most creative. I've played things before spontaneously never to be able to repeat them again. Those notes/moments are gone with the wind....at least you recorded yours...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, got home today and had a package waiting for me, and the rest of the family is in Nashville. Can you say "crank it up!"?


----------



## MM54

Woo, NTTD. I present, the B&K 707 (Look familiar, Marty?)






This one's from 1968 by the sticker inside, and seems to have come factory with diodes as opposed to the #83. I had a pair of 1N4007's ready, too  (I'm pretty sure it's factory since the solder matched the rest and the rivet holding the terminal strip matches all the others). Also has the original whatever-it-is tube for the Grid Emissions test.





Ironicall enough, I had to use my Jackson 598 to test the tube the tube tester uses the test tubes  (It was just over 100% on all three bits)





Part of the circuit has two bulbs in it in notoriously bad connections, and I'd classify the holders in mine as TERRIBLE. I tried it out when I first got it, and both bulbs flickered when poked with a stick. You can see in this picture the wire I'm getting ready to solder to bypass the socket.






Also, the heater voltage selector was totally stuck, took an hour to get it free and easy to spin again, but I don't have any pictures from that 

Just thought I'd share


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, got home today and had a package waiting for me, and the rest of the family is in Nashville. Can you say "crank it up!"?



Nice! Some "me and Marshall" time...with a new tube to roll hehe. Well not quite new to you but new to the VM. Tear it up!


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Woo, NTTD. I present, the B&K 707 (Look familiar, Marty?)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This one's from 1968 by the sticker inside, and seems to have come factory with diodes as opposed to the #83. I had a pair of 1N4007's ready, too  (I'm pretty sure it's factory since the solder matched the rest and the rivet holding the terminal strip matches all the others). Also has the original whatever-it-is tube for the Grid Emissions test.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ironicall enough, I had to use my Jackson 598 to test the tube the tube tester uses the test tubes  (It was just over 100% on all three bits)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the circuit has two bulbs in it in notoriously bad connections, and I'd classify the holders in mine as TERRIBLE. I tried it out when I first got it, and both bulbs flickered when poked with a stick. You can see in this picture the wire I'm getting ready to solder to bypass the socket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, the heater voltage selector was totally stuck, took an hour to get it free and easy to spin again, but I don't have any pictures from that
> 
> Just thought I'd share



Looks like a spaghetti factory in there. Good thing you know your way around it. So it sounds like with a couple a fixes you have yourself a nice tube tester...


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like a spaghetti factory in there. Good thing you know your way around it. So it sounds like with a couple a fixes you have yourself a nice tube tester...



I've done a lot of research in the past week so I was ready for its trickery when I got it  Right now I'm trying to put together in my head a list of stuff for calibration, but I put a few tubes in to test out that it worked, and the results were pretty close to my Jackson's.

I'm going to do a cap job on it, but first I want to be sure I have all the stuff needed for calibration.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> I've done a lot of research in the past week so I was ready for its trickery when I got it  Right now I'm trying to put together in my head a list of stuff for calibration, but I put a few tubes in to test out that it worked, and the results were pretty close to my Jackson's.
> 
> I'm going to do a cap job on it, but first I want to be sure I have all the stuff needed for calibration.



When you get that thing up and run'n you're gonna have a few us sending our "toobs" to you like we do Marty. I'm glad Marty does it. Having a tube tester is golden.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> When you get that thing up and run'n you're gonna have a few us sending our "toobs" to you like we do Marty. I'm glad Marty does it. Having a tube tester is golden.



Once I get it calibrated I'll be fine with testing tubes for people 

Keep in mind though that a month from now I'll be living in a dorm, and all my electronics equipment will be in my room at home  My oscilloscope will miss me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, maybe you can help me out. I'm trying to get my EICO 666 tester working and no matter what it always reads way low. Someone suggested I check the heater voltages, and something is waaayyyy wrong. I tested a 6L6GC with one of those test socket things with the contacts on the outside. Anyway, at 6.3v on the filament I'm getting a reading that fluctuates between .05v to .2v. If I test the socket itself with nothing plugged in it I get the same readings. I turned the filament selector to its highest setting (117v) and it would fluctuate between 2v and 8v. Don't tell me the transformer's shot, please.

Forgot to add - it always reads in negative volts. I'm hoping some jackass just wired it wrong.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, maybe you can help me out. I'm trying to get my EICO 666 tester working and no matter what it always reads way low. Someone suggested I check the heater voltages, and something is waaayyyy wrong. I tested a 6L6GC with one of those test socket things with the contacts on the outside. Anyway, at 6.3v on the filament I'm getting a reading that fluctuates between .05v to .2v. If I test the socket itself with nothing plugged in it I get the same readings. I turned the filament selector to its highest setting (117v) and it would fluctuate between 2v and 8v. Don't tell me the transformer's shot, please.
> 
> Forgot to add - it always reads in negative volts. I'm hoping some jackass just wired it wrong.



I'd check the wiring of the socket, make sure it's putting it on right (and make sure you're on AC 

My next suspicion is the selector switch, perhaps it needs a good cleaning out. There could be a bad solder joint somewhere in the chain between the TX and the sockets. Check these things and get back to me.

Also, where'd you get the test socket? I could use one of those


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Once I get it calibrated I'll be fine with testing tubes for people
> 
> Keep in mind though that a month from now I'll be living in a dorm, and all my electronics equipment will be in my room at home  My oscilloscope will miss me.



Oh that's right. Well maybe you'll find a way to have a small lil' project you can play with while at School...

You're gonna be jonez'n for your stuff! Hang in there. You'll keep busy with School I'm sure. You have a small dorm room amp to play guitar with? I highly recommend a Vox Amplug. Use a decent pair of ear buds with it and its pretty fun. I have the " Classic Rock" version. I've had it ever since they came out and I still use it. I can crank my amps all I want where I'm at but I like to play through it too. It helps with my "plexi" cravings money be'n so tight and all.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh that's right. Well maybe you'll find a way to have a small lil' project you can play with while at School...
> 
> You're gonna be jonez'n for your stuff! Hang in there. You'll keep busy with School I'm sure. You have a small dorm room amp to play guitar with? I highly recommend a Vox Amplug. Use a decent pair of ear buds with it and its pretty fun. I have the " Classic Rock" version. I've had it ever since they came out and I still use it. I can crank my amps all I want where I'm at but I like to play through it too. It helps with my "plexi" cravings money be'n so tight and all.



My recording interface has a instrument-level line in, I have amplitube free edition, and sometime soon I'm going to get a good quality pair of headphones. It should keep me satisfied. I'm going to have more trouble with wanting to actually work on electronics than playing guitar though


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> My recording interface has a instrument-level line in, I have amplitube free edition, and sometime soon I'm going to get a good quality pair of headphones. It should keep me satisfied. I'm going to have more trouble with wanting to actually work on electronics than playing guitar though



I was thinking that too.LOL!

You're set for play'n noise free.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn. I was trying to read DC. I feel like an idiot. Now, without a tube in the socket, it reads around 6.27v. With a tube in the socket, it's around 5.7v. I can adjust the line voltage up and get it to read 6.3v with the tube in, but the test is still stupid-low. A known good RCA tube is testing at around 40%.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I've done a lot of research in the past week so I was ready for its trickery when I got it  Right now I'm trying to put together in my head a list of stuff for calibration, but I put a few tubes in to test out that it worked, and the results were pretty close to my Jackson's.
> 
> I'm going to do a cap job on it, but first I want to be sure I have all the stuff needed for calibration.



TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice to see another 707 out there. I remember the first one I got. It was an early version and was built like a tank. The top plate was 100 percent annealed copper. This was changed later to aluminum. The main problem I had with this one was multiple loose sockets. I kept buying a better one and then selling the old one. I finally got one that was a one owner and the family was selling it. After selling my old one, it cost me $22. All of the sockets are good on it and the top plate is in very good condition. 

However, it is still a unit that came with the #83 rec tube. (Side note: In my first 707, the #83 was a hand etched Sylvania. It was still good and I sold it to a Hong Kong tube collector for $35.) I use the solid state rectifier instead of the tube. It's more accurate.

The other tube is a 6BN8. I had a fairly new RCA NOS 6BN8 in my tester, but the tech replaced it. I don't think it was bad, but he was trying to eliminate and reasons my tester was reading high. He claims it was a dirty sensitivity pot. He cleaned it with DEOXIT and claims this fixed it. Of course, when he first got it, it worked fine for him. He had to find the problem. I hate problems like this. 

Once you get the tester cleaned and the caps changed, you can calibrate it. Let me know if you found the complete calibration procedure online. I got my tester cleaned, caps replaced and calibrated for $99. The guy who did it was extra nice. This recent problem I had didn't cost me anything and he even paid for the return shipping. Now that's a hell of a deal.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I was thinking that too.LOL!
> 
> You're set for play'n noise free.



I'm hoping I'll find something to keep me occupied creatively so I d on't go totally nuts (i'm already halfway there )



RiverRatt said:


> Damn. I was trying to read DC. I feel like an idiot. Now, without a tube in the socket, it reads around 6.27v. With a tube in the socket, it's around 5.7v. I can adjust the line voltage up and get it to read 6.3v with the tube in, but the test is still stupid-low. A known good RCA tube is testing at around 40%.



I did the same thing on the 707 today  But I caught myself early  Anyways, there are a million things that could be making it test low, from out of spec components to bad connections to dirty switches and pots. I don't know much (read: anything) about Eico 666's but I'd suggest measuring all the resistors (probably carbon comp, right?) as replacing any that are more than 10% out of spec with a modern resistor.



MartyStrat54 said:


> TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester



I was on there earlier, that's a great site  (And the guy lives about 2 hours from me). See below.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice to see another 707 out there. I remember the first one I got. It was an early version and was built like a tank. The top plate was 100 percent annealed copper. This was changed later to aluminum. The main problem I had with this one was multiple loose sockets. I kept buying a better one and then selling the old one. I finally got one that was a one owner and the family was selling it. After selling my old one, it cost me $22. All of the sockets are good on it and the top plate is in very good condition.
> 
> However, it is still a unit that came with the #83 rec tube. (Side note: In my first 707, the #83 was a hand etched Sylvania. It was still good and I sold it to a Hong Kong tube collector for $35.) I use the solid state rectifier instead of the tube. It's more accurate.
> 
> The other tube is a 6BN8. I had a fairly new RCA NOS 6BN8 in my tester, but the tech replaced it. I don't think it was bad, but he was trying to eliminate and reasons my tester was reading high. He claims it was a dirty sensitivity pot. He cleaned it with DEOXIT and claims this fixed it. Of course, when he first got it, it worked fine for him. He had to find the problem. I hate problems like this.
> 
> Once you get the tester cleaned and the caps changed, you can calibrate it. Let me know if you found the complete calibration procedure online. I got my tester cleaned, caps replaced and calibrated for $99. The guy who did it was extra nice. This recent problem I had didn't cost me anything and he even paid for the return shipping. Now that's a hell of a deal.



That's a great price for all that work. I have a copy of the manual/schematic/calibration info, and a lot of it is available on the Tubesound site you linked to earlier. It's definitely something you'd want to be sure you know what you're doing before you start. I'm confident enough to take it on, and worst case scenario, I have to send it out (but I doubt it'll come to that).


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I did the same thing on the 707 today  But I caught myself early  Anyways, there are a million things that could be making it test low, from out of spec components to bad connections to dirty switches and pots. I don't know much (read: anything) about Eico 666's but I'd suggest measuring all the resistors (probably carbon comp, right?) as replacing any that are more than 10% out of spec with a modern resistor.



It's going to be like testing a plate of spaghetti. Actually there are only a couple of carbon comp resistors in the thing, and only one electrolytic cap. No tubes. When I go through the calibration routine, everything works as it should. All the readings at the trim pots inside are exactly what they are supposed to be.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In 2005, I had to relocate quickly to outside of Chicago. Because of noise constraints, I played through my DigiTech RP-12 and a set of headphones. It sounded as rich and full as my DSL401. 

There are ways to play "quietly."


----------



## RiverRatt

Got a couple of silver plate Ei tubes coming. I've never had one of these before. Anybody had any experience with them?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Were they the one's on FLEABAY? Those can be microphonic. If they aren't noisy, then they are pretty nice. However, they are not a MAZDA.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Got a couple of silver plate Ei tubes coming. I've never had one of these before. Anybody had any experience with them?



Didn't know they made silver plate EI's.

Hey how did the BEL perform in the VM?


----------



## MM54

I almost got a pair of silver plate Ei's a while ago out of curiosity, but I was outbid past what my curiosity budget allows


----------



## RiverRatt

I really haven't had a chance to put it through its paces. I started playing last night but had to stop. I've had a bitch of a headache trying to start up the last couple of days or so and it finally succeeded. I just couldn't get into it last night and now I feel like my eyes are trying to cross. Last time this happened it was high blood pressure. That's kinda what it feels like again. I've been having some probs with potassium and heart function lately and I'm trying to get it all sorted out. I just got a cap kit in the mail for my Ampeg GV22 and I don't feel like fucking with it.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I really haven't had a chance to put it through its paces. I started playing last night but had to stop. I've had a bitch of a headache trying to start up the last couple of days or so and it finally succeeded. I just couldn't get into it last night and now I feel like my eyes are trying to cross. Last time this happened it was high blood pressure. That's kinda what it feels like again. I've been having some probs with potassium and heart function lately and I'm trying to get it all sorted out. I just got a cap kit in the mail for my Ampeg GV22 and I don't feel like fucking with it.



Damn man. Get yourself well. All that other stuff can wait. Scott PM'd me and he's got the flu so he hasn't been able to roll the RFT I sent him. You guys get healthy again first. I know exactly how it feels to be under not have the energy to do anything. Sometimes only enough to just survive. Wish you well!


----------



## MM54

Yeesh, I'll be sure to wash my hands after touching any tubes from you lot 

Hope you're feeling better soon, guys.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> Yeesh, I'll be sure to wash my hands after touching any tubes from you lot
> 
> Hope you're feeling better soon, guys.


----------



## BluesRocker

Dang.. Looks like lots of guys are under the weather.. Get better guys... Sheesh.. Gotta keep u all on a leash..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, let me tell you my story. I moved to Atchison, Kansas in 2006. My waist was a 34 and had been for years. I was around 225. Then the VA put me on some medicine (four kinds). Then I had to take other medicines to combat unwanted side effects of the original medicines. Then I had to take over the counter medicines so I could crap. All this medicine was drying me up inside. Then the next thing was my thyroid was affected and became almost useless. Then my metabolism slowed down. This caused me to gain 50+ pounds. I got up to a 42 waist and now wear XXL shirts. I don't look that bad, because I'm tall. I had to take more medicine to combat the thyroid condition. Other related problems were my cholesterol went way up. My blood pressure went up and I was on the border of being diabetic. I knew I was heading for troubles.

About two months ago, I decided to cut my medicines in half. Within a week, my energy level was up. Hell, I joined the YMCA and I am working out now. My goal is to loose 20 pounds by Christmas time. I know if I can get the weight off, the other problems will go away. 

Sometimes you have to take control of your health. Doctors tend to get complacent about how they are treating you. It is up to you to determine what is best for your overall health.

You know how you hear, "talk to your doctor about the good outweighing the bad?" Sometimes the doctor fails at this and it can be harmful to you. Lucky for me I put my foot down before I got up to 300 pounds and started suffering from four or so other medical conditions.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know where you're coming from. My weight has gotten out of control, too. That's the biggest problem I need to deal with. Unfortunately, there's some chemicals that I have to take or bad things happen. I don't like it, but it's better than the alternative. It just seems like there's been more downs than ups lately. My doctor is pretty good about listening to what's going on and making adjustments. I've got an appointment Monday and I'm going to see if she can do some tweaking.


----------



## solarburn

I just started to get stronger from my ordeal and began mountain biking again...going easy at first. Was doing good for a week and a half. I was using my commute bike on the road and on a flat span of road and my back went out. I barely dismounted the bike and thought I was stuck right there unable to move. Back was spasming badly. I was about a half mile from home. With great pain I manged to pedal back. It was ridiculous and just a bad joke for me considering the operation and 6 week recovery I had just been through.

I've been biking for along time as well as work out with weights. I consider it fun to be in shape. I've lost 30lbs and more than half of that was muscle and became very weak. It went quick. So getting on the good side of my recovery was making me feel great. Then the back goes! Yeah I do have a bad lower back and it does this sometimes. Usually though when I'm tearing it up on trails not riding a flat piece of asphalt. Humiliating...

Anyways now I have to wait for my back to get better and then try again for health. My lifting plans have changed for less muscle, lighter weights and more cardiovascular condition and I'm going to eat for about 185-190lbs instead of the 230lbs I was at. I'm 6' tall and 200lbs now. These are my plans and my Doc has said go ahead. You know what they say about making plans...LOL! We'll see how it goes.

Hell I never imagined I'd suffer the kind of Chronic ailments I have now. I don't drink/drug, smoke and I worked out regular. I got news for everyone. It can happen whether you're in good shape or not. There are sicknesses/conditions that can take anyone down. It won't matter how well you manage your health. It can happen and I've met a few peeps who know this.


----------



## solarburn

Double post.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, my mom never drank or smoked and she ended up with hepatitis C via a tainted blood transfusion. She died at 80. (Her dad lived to 97 and her mother lived until 92. All of her older sisters are still alive.)

My dad drank and smoked (quit smoking at 63 but the damage was already done). He lived to 86.

So you are right. You can be a "Goodie Two Shoes" and still get afflicted with a serious medical condition.


----------



## BluesRocker

I was gonna post a clip off me playing to a blues backing track for you all.. But quickly I found out that I am not on my A game tonight.. Maybe another night.. I went through about 50 different track and none suited me tonight..


----------



## solarburn

I don't have an A game Cody!LOL

Perfectionist! hahaha!

Jus rib'n ya.


----------



## BluesRocker

haha... Yeah well when I post something online I want it to sound actually half way decent.. Not like some 12 year old who just picked up the guitar playing.. lol


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> haha... Yeah well when I post something online I want it to sound actually half way decent.. Not like some 12 year old who just picked up the guitar playing.. lol



Sometimes when I'm try'n I be that 12 yr old who just started! Its like my fingers go in slow motion and know only 5 notes in the same box...:eek2:

I can always manage power chords though!




Toobs!


----------



## RiverRatt

That's what happens to me every time I hit "record".


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's what happens to me every time I hit "record".





Hey I like what you play man!


----------



## RiverRatt

Same ol' pentatonic shit I always play. It may sound new to you, but it sounds like a rut to me.


----------



## BluesRocker

LOL.. I kinda am always that 12 year old.. I get lost a lot in solos.. It sucks


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Same ol' pentatonic shit I always play. It may sound new to you, but it sounds like a rut to me.



I'm Mr. Pentatonic!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> LOL.. I kinda am always that 12 year old.. I get lost a lot in solos.. It sucks



What amp were you using for the recordings?


----------



## RiverRatt

I dunno... one of my best friends is a drummer and we've played together since we were maybe 13 years old and we have been talking about finding a bass player and working up some blues and rock. I don't know how I'd do up front. I've always been the rhythm player.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What amp were you using for the recordings?



I was going to use the 6100 on the Orange channel.. Set to about a nice Led Zep kinda tone..


----------



## BluesRocker

I am a penatonic man myself Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

Pentatonic isn't bad if you can throw in some passing tones and original stuff. I've blown my bag of tricks after about 24 bars.


----------



## BluesRocker

Same here Alan.. I guess thats why I get bored sometimes when I play.. Cause after a few measures your phrases start to sound the same..


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I was going to use the 6100 on the Orange channel.. Set to about a nice Led Zep kinda tone..



Cool. I don't hear much 6100 do'n classic like that and i'm not saying it won't. The guys assure me it will no problem. I just haven't seen/heard any clips.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hmm.. well.. I did do this when I got it..
http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/302818_afubh/6100%20demo.mp3

I have rolled different tubes since.. It sounds a bit better now


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Pentatonic isn't bad if you can throw in some passing tones and original stuff. I've blown my bag of tricks after about 24 bars.




What I like with pentatonic are licks and phrasing. My issue is practicing the licks and phrasing. There are alot of cool ass songs using it so no reason to feel bad about it. Personally I don't like wanking or shredding unless it has that phrasing and licks mixed in. I get tired of listening to a bunch of notes at break neck speeds. Yeah its impressive. Don't do it again!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hmm.. well.. I did do this when I got it..
> http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/302818_afubh/6100%20demo.mp3
> 
> I have rolled different tubes since.. It sounds a bit better now



There ya go. Now who doesn't like get'n the LED out.

Wow you just smacked me in the face with Talica!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> There ya go. Now who doesn't like get'n the LED out.
> 
> Wow you just smacked me in the face with Talica!



Yeah that was all 3 channels on the 6100.. Clean was the Clean Channel, Zep was Orange Channel, and 'Tallica was Red Channel


----------



## solarburn

Well my Bruthers I have just ran out of time and have to go to work. Been cool as always and I hate to brag but its my FRIDAY!!!!!

See ya tomorrow!


----------



## BluesRocker

Night Joe


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, I just recorded a little rhythm on the Tweaker. 

a12bar.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a nice sounding little amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah it is.. That is with G12T75s.. I have yet to try it with the Greenbacks


----------



## Lowlife

Found my grand dads tubestash yesterday, it consisted of mostly Telefunken tubes, of all kinds, many ECC81-82 and fortunately ECC83. Many in plastic wrapped closed original boxes. There was also a few Philips ECC83 miniwatts.

Any of you have experience with the telefunken and philips ECC83 tubes, they any good in guitar amps?

I have attached a few photos.

The Telefunken ECC 83





The Philips miniwatt





And a funky looking Telefunken EF89, looks like a cheesegrater inside.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Alan, I just recorded a little rhythm on the Tweaker.
> 
> a12bar.mp3



Nice tone! Now you've got me wanting another one. Those T-75s are old and well broken in, too. They sound better to me than the ones in that 1960B I had. What settings are you using on the amp? Have you done any tube swapping in it yet?


----------



## RiverRatt

Lowlife said:


> Found my grand dads tubestash yesterday, it consisted of mostly Telefunken tubes, of all kinds, many ECC81-82 and fortunately ECC83. Many in plastic wrapped closed original boxes. There was also a few Philips ECC83 miniwatts.
> 
> Any of you have experience with the telefunken and philips ECC83 tubes, they any good in guitar amps?
> 
> I have attached a few photos.



Yeah, the Telefunken and Miniwatt are both great tubes in a guitar amp and they are also worth quite a bit of money, especially in that condition. How many did you find?

I think the EF89 was used in TV circuits but I can't remember what it's purpose was. Being a Telefunken, it might be worth selling on eBay but it's of no use in an amp.


----------



## solarburn

> Found my grand dads tubestash yesterday, it consisted of mostly Telefunken tubes, of all kinds, many ECC81-82 and fortunately ECC83. Many in plastic wrapped closed original boxes. There was also a few Philips ECC83 miniwatts.
> 
> Any of you have experience with the telefunken and philips ECC83 tubes, they any good in guitar amps?



Yep. Like Alan said both the Funken and Mini Watts are good guitar amp tubes and worth money. We've used them in our amps.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Nice tone! Now you've got me wanting another one. Those T-75s are old and well broken in, too. They sound better to me than the ones in that 1960B I had. What settings are you using on the amp? Have you done any tube swapping in it yet?



I have just rolled the tubes that everyone sent out to try.. Nothing else.. Basically cause I am liking the tone I am getting.. lol Settings are:

Tight, Normal, Hot, Vintage

B- 2 o clock
M- 4 o clock
T- 11 o clock
G- Noon
L- 9 o clock


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, the Telefunken and Miniwatt are both great tubes in a guitar amp and they are also worth quite a bit of money, especially in that condition. How many did you find?
> 
> I think the EF89 was used in TV circuits but I can't remember what it's purpose was. Being a Telefunken, it might be worth selling on eBay but it's of no use in an amp.



All in all, about 40-50 tubes, of those are 5 ECC83 telefunken, and 2 Mini watts, and another 5-6 of ECC 81 and another 5-6 ECC82. The rest are Telefunken random tubes (ah another 5-6 EL84).

So not a bad loot, dont think ill be selling anything for now...especially not the ones i can use myself.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Damn man. Get yourself well. All that other stuff can wait. Scott PM'd me and he's got the flu so he hasn't been able to roll the RFT I sent him. You guys get healthy again first. I know exactly how it feels to be under not have the energy to do anything. Sometimes only enough to just survive. Wish you well!



Hey guys,

Thanks for the well wishes! I am back among the living! 52 hrs of praying-for-death hell (flu or Salmonella, they really dont know). Had to go in for an IV to get re hydrated. Not good times!

Still a bit on the weak side, but I'm out of the woods! 

Alan and Joe, take care you guys!!!


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> I have just rolled the tubes that everyone sent out to try.. Nothing else.. Basically cause I am liking the tone I am getting.. lol Settings are:
> 
> Tight, Normal, Hot, Vintage
> 
> B- 2 o clock
> M- 4 o clock
> T- 11 o clock
> G- Noon
> L- 9 o clock



Cody, nice clips man! Great job on showing the faces of the 6100.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Thanks for the well wishes! I am back among the living! 52 hrs of praying-for-death hell (flu or Salmonella, they really dont know). Had to go in for an IV to get re hydrated. Not good times!
> 
> Still a bit on the weak side, but I'm out of the woods!
> 
> Alan and Joe, take care you guys!!!



That sounds horrible Scott! Noth'n worse that feel'n like that for days. Nasty!

Pretty serious if you had to go in for an IV to be hydrated. Keep getting better and we'll see you soon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Flu, headaches and food poisoning, Good grief. I hope all you guys get to feeling better.

AT LEAST IT'S NOT HERPES OR CRABS!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I hit the potassium last night and drank about a quart of Gatorade today. I know it's not the best thing for you, but it usually picks me up when it's so hot outside. Anyway, I'm feeling much better. I've just got to find something that keeps my blood pressure down and my potassium up.

Got my silver plate Ei's and got a chance to give them and the BEL a workout tonight. The BEL is really good at thick crunchy tones, but the Ei's have a top-end sizzle that makes you want to push 'em pretty hard. Two different and very excellent tubes. 

I also got my Ampeg re-capped and running tonight for the first time in months. I've really got to figure out why that combo is so boomy. G and A barre chords just feel like they're gonna shake the tubes loose. The only solution is running it trebly, especially if it's really loud. I had it dimed today and it still has those Stones sounds in there but it's so boomy and rattles so bad if you get any decent chunk to it that it's not fun to play. I need to add or take away something to change the resonant frequency of the cab or baffle.


----------



## BluesRocker

Howdy guys!


----------



## RiverRatt

Howdy, pard. What's up? I've already posted my rollings (most of 'em ) for the evening.


----------



## BluesRocker

Just got off work from a hot day in hell.. How bout yourself..

I think I am gonna run the Tweaker in the Mojo cab tonight..


----------



## solarburn

Me & Cody jam'n...a quicky!

That's what she said...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61vQ_ZjrXSM]‪Me & Cody‬&rlm; - YouTube[/ame]

Oh...and one of me daughters.LOL!


----------



## BluesRocker

That was cool Joe!


----------



## solarburn

Hahaha! I tried to get sump'n down. It was fun man and I'm surprised I got it to work recording both of us with the flip cam. I had to put you right by it and then make sure I didn't blow your rhythm outa town with volume hehe. Took me awhile just to get volume matched up where it was usable.


----------



## solarburn

Now we can say we jammed together!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Me & Cody jam'n...a quicky!
> 
> That's what she said...
> 
> ‪Me & Cody‬&rlm; - YouTube
> 
> Oh...and one of me daughters.LOL!



Cool Joe!! And cute as hell with the little girl in the guest appearance!!!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Now we can say we jammed together!



Hell yeah! I never thought of that before.. Cool as hell man.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Cool Joe!! And cute as hell with the little girl in the guest appearance!!!



That's my gur! Hannah doesn't know yet she's become a "informal member" on the Marshall Forum.LOL


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That's my gur! Hannah doesn't know yet she's become a "informal member" on the Marshall Forum.LOL



Haha! If she is hang'n with you, I'm sure she will fit right in!

(just keep her away from the Boobs threads!)


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Just got off work from a hot day in hell.. How bout yourself..
> 
> I think I am gonna run the Tweaker in the Mojo cab tonight..



We got some rain this afternoon and more this evening. It's actually quite pleasant now. A little tequila and it's really pleasant. I ran the tweaker through the 1960 once. It sounds a lot different from the 1966. I was just thinking I should have run the Ampeg out into the 425. I'll bet it would sound good. At least I could hear how it sounds without all the noisy bullshit.

Joe, that's cool! I haven't tried that with my setup, but I'll bet I could import Cody's clip and play over that. I had a nice firewire audio interface for the Mac but it blew up. Now I'm using one of those cheap M-Audio interfaces. It's not too bad really. If you have a Mac you can use it with GarageBand, and the PC version comes with a scaled-down version of ProTools. Either one is fun to use and sounds better than the camera mic. I've got an SM57 and 58 that I've had forever and they work great with it. I was messing around tonight with mic'ing the 425 with each mic on a different speaker. Pretty cool stuff. I thought I was sounding like Zakk Wylde, but the mics didn't seem to agree.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hell yeah! I never thought of that before.. Cool as hell man.



Well now that I know I can match clips up to me play'n here we can have all kinds of fun creating stuff! Both ways too.

I can't do clips like you into the puter cause I don't know how and have the equip. This worked out though.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hell yeah! I never thought of that before.. Cool as hell man.



You know, I've got a power inverter in the wife's Traverse... I wonder how long we could play in the Ramada parking lot before the cops showed up? Hell, it's Nashville. Downtown you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some asshole with a guitar. We should fit right in.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> We got some rain this afternoon and more this evening. It's actually quite pleasant now. A little tequila and it's really pleasant. I ran the tweaker through the 1960 once. It sounds a lot different from the 1966. I was just thinking I should have run the Ampeg out into the 425. I'll bet it would sound good. At least I could hear how it sounds without all the noisy bullshit.
> 
> Joe, that's cool! I haven't tried that with my setup, but I'll bet I could import Cody's clip and play over that. I had a nice firewire audio interface for the Mac but it blew up. Now I'm using one of those cheap M-Audio interfaces. It's not too bad really. If you have a Mac you can use it with GarageBand, and the PC version comes with a scaled-down version of ProTools. Either one is fun to use and sounds better than the camera mic. I've got an SM57 and 58 that I've had forever and they work great with it. I was messing around tonight with mic'ing the 425 with each mic on a different speaker. Pretty cool stuff. I thought I was sounding like Zakk Wylde, but the mics didn't seem to agree.



Oh that warm embrace. Nice aint it...I remember! Pizza feels good too!

Yeah having it imported and playing over it would be better. I just don't have a clue yet and none of the apps to do it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I hit the potassium last night and drank about a quart of Gatorade today. I know it's not the best thing for you, but it usually picks me up when it's so hot outside. Anyway, I'm feeling much better. I've just got to find something that keeps my blood pressure down and my potassium up.
> 
> Got my silver plate Ei's and got a chance to give them and the BEL a workout tonight. The BEL is really good at thick crunchy tones, but the Ei's have a top-end sizzle that makes you want to push 'em pretty hard. Two different and very excellent tubes.
> 
> I also got my Ampeg re-capped and running tonight for the first time in months. I've really got to figure out why that combo is so boomy. G and A barre chords just feel like they're gonna shake the tubes loose. The only solution is running it trebly, especially if it's really loud. I had it dimed today and it still has those Stones sounds in there but it's so boomy and rattles so bad if you get any decent chunk to it that it's not fun to play. I need to add or take away something to change the resonant frequency of the cab or baffle.



Hey RR,

Take care man! I'm on two meds to keep my blood pressure down. My blood pressure was at 181/184 at 8:00am with no caffeine when I when my Doc basically made me start taking meds at 33 years old. Been on meds ever since (although I have been able to back down the dosage quite a bit since then). That shit can screw you up over time man.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> You know, I've got a power inverter in the wife's Traverse... I wonder how long we could play in the Ramada parking lot before the cops showed up? Hell, it's Nashville. Downtown you can't swing a dead cat without hitting some asshole with a guitar. We should fit right in.



There is only one way to find out RR!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh that warm embrace. Nice aint it...I remember! Pizza feels good too!
> 
> Yeah having it imported and playing over it would be better. I just don't have a clue yet and none of the apps to do it.



You know you can get a free version of Amplitube now. It ain't the same as plugging into a real amp, but you can use it to jam on your PC. You can even get 1/4" to USB cables to make it easy.


----------



## BluesRocker

Im down for that Alan!

Joe I can show you an easy way to record with a puter..

Just Google Audacity, get a mic and plug it in the puter.. The hit record


----------



## RiverRatt

Next time we're up there trading.... just sayin'!

Did you pay any attention to that guy who was trying out my Vintage Club while we were loading and unloading? He got kinda pissy after you left and said he'd pass on the amp. Turns out the problem was the power inverters - they aren't grounded so the amp was humming like a bitch. I ended up trading it for a couple of nice pedals at GC on the way out of town.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok guys.. Just recorded both tracks of this with the LP, tweaker, and mojo cab.. Let me know what ya think. Im not the best player.. I lost my headphones so if i lost timing its cause I coulnt hear the track. lol

a12barjam.mp3


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Next time we're up there trading.... just sayin'!
> 
> Did you pay any attention to that guy who was trying out my Vintage Club while we were loading and unloading? He got kinda pissy after you left and said he'd pass on the amp. Turns out the problem was the power inverters - they aren't grounded so the amp was humming like a bitch. I ended up trading it for a couple of nice pedals at GC on the way out of town.



Well looks like you were satisfied with your pedals..  screw that guy.. lol


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You know you can get a free version of Amplitube now. It ain't the same as plugging into a real amp, but you can use it to jam on your PC. You can even get 1/4" to USB cables to make it easy.



I was checking that out on the forum here. If I get some initiative I'll look into it better.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Ok guys.. Just recorded both tracks of this with the LP, tweaker, and mojo cab.. Let me know what ya think. Im not the best player.. I lost my headphones so if i lost timing its cause I coulnt hear the track. lol
> 
> a12barjam.mp3



Now he's cook'n!

Way to bend them F'ers! You got it man.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey RR,
> 
> Take care man! I'm on two meds to keep my blood pressure down. My blood pressure was at 181/184 at 8:00am with no caffeine when I when my Doc basically made me start taking meds at 33 years old. Been on meds ever since (although I have been able to back down the dosage quite a bit since then). That shit can screw you up over time man.



Damn, that's high, dude! Watch that shit. I think I'm going to see if I can go back to the old stuff I was taking. It made me more drowsy but at least I didn't have this potassium BS going on. I didn't realize that low potassium levels could do such a number on you.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Im down for that Alan!
> 
> Joe I can show you an easy way to record with a puter..
> 
> Just Google Audacity, get a mic and plug it in the puter.. The hit record



Thanx Cody. I'll check it out.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah Scott I think you were ready to blow up!

Glad you didn't and I know you are too.LOL

Stay healthy.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Ok guys.. Just recorded both tracks of this with the LP, tweaker, and mojo cab.. Let me know what ya think. Im not the best player.. I lost my headphones so if i lost timing its cause I coulnt hear the track. lol
> 
> a12barjam.mp3



That's nice, man. So I guess you're diggin that little amp, huh? 

I'm getting several more pairs of those 6P3S Russian power tubes from that guy as soon as he finds the box. I traded him those EL84's I got which were really disappointing. He has a nice B&K 747 tester and only one of the lot tested at 100%. The rest were 80% tubes. Doesn't mean they are spent, but they aren't worth nearly as much. I think I'm going to send Moose Lewis one pair of them for his tweaker, and John from Texas if he wants some. I posted over in the Tweaker thread but he didn't say anything about them. Speak up if you want 'em!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Thanx Cody. I'll check it out.



Yeah.. That is what I use.. Its simple and easy and free!!!!!!

Minus the mic and cord.. 

I use a M-Audio Mobile Pre interface also. But you dont have to have it


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, that's high, dude! Watch that shit. I think I'm going to see if I can go back to the old stuff I was taking. It made me more drowsy but at least I didn't have this potassium BS going on. I didn't realize that low potassium levels could do such a number on you.



Yea, it was nuts. I am around 120/70 these days. I remember talking to my Doc about how sleepy and slow the meds made me feel when I started taking them, she said "you have to realize, thats where most people feel normal, you'll get used to it", and I did. Now if I miss a pill I know with in an hour or so. 

Yea, the potassium thing is big! I remember taking a large dose of it to try and pass a drug test. I thought I was going to die of a heart attack! 

Hang in man! I hope it settles down for ya!


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> That's nice, man. So I guess you're diggin that little amp, huh?
> 
> I'm getting several more pairs of those 6P3S Russian power tubes from that guy as soon as he finds the box. I traded him those EL84's I got which were really disappointing. He has a nice B&K 747 tester and only one of the lot tested at 100%. The rest were 80% tubes. Doesn't mean they are spent, but they aren't worth nearly as much. I think I'm going to send Moose Lewis one pair of them for his tweaker, and John from Texas if he wants some. I posted over in the Tweaker thread but he didn't say anything about them. Speak up if you want 'em!



Im good on tubes.. Thanks for the offer though..


----------



## RiverRatt

You fellers have fun. I'm going to turn in or I won't be able to get up in the morning.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah.. That is what I use.. Its simple and easy and free!!!!!!
> 
> Minus the mic and cord..
> 
> I use a M-Audio Mobile Pre interface also. But you dont have to have it



Got it book marked for later.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Ok guys.. Just recorded both tracks of this with the LP, tweaker, and mojo cab.. Let me know what ya think. Im not the best player.. I lost my headphones so if i lost timing its cause I coulnt hear the track. lol
> 
> a12barjam.mp3





Nice work Cody!


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Now he's cook'n!
> 
> Way to bend them F'ers! You got it man.



Yeah I am a heavy bender.. I havent found a note yet that I didnt like to bend.. lol Bend+Vibrato is my signature I guess.. LOL I cant do anything else..


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> You fellers have fun. I'm going to turn in or I won't be able to get up in the morning.



Night RR!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You fellers have fun. I'm going to turn in or I won't be able to get up in the morning.



Alrighty Alan. See ya tomorrow.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Got it book marked for later.



If you need any help setting it up let me know.. I also have a 1/4in to 1/8in adapter cable if ya need one.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Nice work Cody!



Thanks Scott!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah I am a heavy bender.. I havent found a note yet that I didnt like to bend.. lol Bend+Vibrato is my signature I guess.. LOL I cant do anything else..



Awh there's nuth'n like a good bend right there.LOL

Especially with the blues. Got to have them.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Awh there's nuth'n like a good bend right there.LOL
> 
> Especially with the blues. Got to have them.



Yeah, when a bend is hit right when playing blues it can almost make ya shiver.... Well.. sometimes it always does.. SRV and BB King do that to me.


----------



## big dooley

Schafedog said:


> I guess I was at the wrong thread earlier. Got sent here. Got an 08 jvm410h and a 1960 a cab. Not using any pedals right now. I'm sure the tubes are stock and want to replace them. I'm playing a 2011 LP studio deluxe and am looking for the sounds of msg,UFO,April wine Scorpions and Gary moore,. Muddy is how to describe tone now from all I've been reading. Don't want it too tinny sounding but with a forceful attack!I really like it loud if that helps. I guess tubes are a start. Any help out there?





MartyStrat54 said:


> HEY DOG-Let me throw a few things around. It's an '08 and the tubes are probably stock. Marshall does not use the best OE tubes. Usually Russian Sovteks or Chinese Shuguangs. These are cheap tubes. Now a lot of high gain guys like the Shuguangs, but they can be noisy.
> 
> The bias on your power tubes could have drifted and this will cause a suck ass sound. I would recommend the EH 6CA7 or JJE34L power tubes for the 410.
> 
> For current production 12AX7's, I recommend the Tung-Sol for V1. The trick is to pay extra for the high gain/low noise option. You will want this for your V1 tube.
> 
> Tung-Sol 12AX7 New Production
> 
> Try this JJ in V2. Get it high gain as well. (Low noise is your option.)
> 
> JJ ECC803s / Hi-Performance 12AX7
> 
> Try this EH in V3, V4 and V5. For V3 and V4, just get as is. No need to get high gain. For the PI (V5), order a high gain tube.
> 
> Electro-Harmonix 12AX7 Gold Pin
> 
> One other note. That 1960 cab probably has the G12T-75's. Not my favorite speaker. You might also want to think about a speaker swap.


marshall themselves are using JJ's or shuguangs in the preamp... not sovteks... as for powertubes those are winged C EL34's, the most popular EL34 there is and one the most reliable (i'm not fond of them though)

i do not recommend to put any new sensor tube (EH, tungsol, sovtek, mullard, etc), except the sovtek 12ax7wa, into V3 of the JVM... loads of reports on those brands failing in that position of the JVM... the issue is not so much in the Vkf voltage as the heatervoltage is elevated by 75volts, but the problem is the initial start up... the JVM in standby mode has B+ on all the tubes except the PI... the problem is that the grid of the cathode follower is right at HT potential, while the cathode is still at ground potential... it can't emit electrodes, as it is still cold... also, the cathode resistor has a very low value (47K instead of the regular 100K), which very likely doesn't help either
these facts have been known to destroy tubes very easy and for some reason the new sensor tubes are vulnerable to this... i'm using a JJ ecc803 in this position as they are a beefier version of their regular ecc83's

the JJ ecc803 can be used in V1 or V2, but their large plates have a tendency to become microphonic easier, so indeed try to get a selected low microphony/ low noise type... especially for a high gain amp, like the JVM

the biggest improvement you can do on a stock JVM with stock tubes is a simple bias reset... these things are set mighty cold from the factory

in my case i'm running JJ KT77's biased very hot, along with 2 JJ ecc83's in V1 and V2, a JJ ecc803 in V3, a stock marshall (shuguang) in V4 and a GE 5751 JAN in V5 (PI)


----------



## RiverRatt

A guy just brought me an old Wurlitzer organ to work on. You should see this thing! It has 37 12AX7's in it. Three are Mullard I63's and two are Telefunken smooth plates with diamond bottoms and seams on the top?!?! Marty, I think these are some of those strange ones like you had. They are filthy but I can't find any sort of code or anything on them other than what's left of the Telefunken logo and "West Germany". There are also six GE 12AX7's that have red tips. I'm hoping it's going to be as simple as replacing some bad tubes. The amp uses two 6V6's and what looks like a 5U4GB rectifier. Somebody put two nice 6L6GC's in the amp by mistake. Tsk, tsk, tsk. Those'll have to go 

For my fee, he gave me an old Zenith console stereo with a 2x6BQ5 amp in it. It has a single 12AX7 that appears to have one triode each driving a single 6BQ5 for a stereo amp. 5Y3 rectifier. The cabinet is so pretty I'm almost going to hate to scavenge it (but just almost).


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## MartyStrat54

What a find. I can't believe how big those carbon comp resistors are in that tone board.


----------



## MartyStrat54

big dooley said:


> marshall themselves are using JJ's or shuguangs in the preamp... not sovteks... as for powertubes those are winged C EL34's, the most popular EL34 there is and one the most reliable (i'm not fond of them though)



Through my old age, I keep wanting to say that Marshall used Sovteks for preamp tubes. Thanks for pointing that out.

I think I remember you saying that the 410 came from the factory with Winged =C='s. Too bad Marshall didn't do that with the DSL/TSL.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> What a find. I can't believe how big those carbon comp resistors are in that tone board.



Those are the decoupling caps  They look to be the bumble-bee style. I have a few of those, but not in valuable... er, values.


----------



## big dooley

MartyStrat54 said:


> Through my old age, I keep wanting to say that Marshall used Sovteks for preamp tubes. Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> I think I remember you saying that the 410 came from the factory with Winged =C='s. Too bad Marshall didn't do that with the DSL/TSL.



for what i know they came/come with winged C's too?
the codes tell everything, though


----------



## solarburn

big dooley said:


> for what i know they came/come with winged C's too?
> the codes tell everything, though



Dooley mine was a 2006 DSL 50 and it came with Svetlana EL34's. Course mine is in the states and that may have been a different choice tube wise. The Svetlana's were so high mid spiked, strident top end and then lacked bottom end it hurt my ears. Then using V30's even made it worse.LOL

Mine also had the Sovtec line up in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Those are the decoupling caps  They look to be the bumble-bee style. I have a few of those, but not in valuable... er, values.



Yeah I knew they were bumble bee caps. I just wanted to stir Alan's pot.

I have a box of them from old TV sets.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Dooley mine was a 2006 DSL 50 and it came with Svetlana EL34's. Course mine is in the states and that may have been a different choice tube wise. The Svetlana's were so high mid spiked, strident top end and then lacked bottom end it hurt my ears. Then using V30's even made it worse.LOL
> 
> Mine also had the Sovtec line up in it.



Joe, did you have Sovtek's in the preamp? And you bring up a very good point. What is OE for the US may be different for the overseas market, such as Australia. 

I always remember that the DSL/TSL amps here in the States had Svetlana's in the power section. 

I guess there are more than one right answer to this.


----------



## big dooley

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Dooley mine was a 2006 DSL 50 and it came with Svetlana EL34's. Course mine is in the states and that may have been a different choice tube wise. The Svetlana's were so high mid spiked, strident top end and then lacked bottom end it hurt my ears. Then using V30's even made it worse.LOL
> 
> Mine also had the Sovtec line up in it.



remember that the svetlana name is still being used in europe by winged C and marshall themselves are still calling them svetlana's on their tube part list
for what i've been told, marshall never uses tubes from the new sensor corp. only SED's, shuguangs and JJ's as of today
got any tube codes?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, did you have Sovtek's in the preamp? And you bring up a very good point. What is OE for the US may be different for the overseas market, such as Australia.
> 
> I always remember that the DSL/TSL amps here in the States had Svetlana's in the power section.
> 
> I guess there are more than one right answer to this.



Yeah. Sovtec preamp tubes.


----------



## solarburn

big dooley said:


> remember that the svetlana name is still being used in europe by winged C and marshall themselves are still calling them svetlana's on their tube part list
> for what i've been told, marshall never uses tubes from the new sensor corp. only SED's, shuguangs and JJ's as of today
> got any tube codes?



These were not Winged =C='s. In fact I bought the =C='s after getting rid of the Svets. It was an improvement in tone. I preferred the JJ 34L's over the Winged =C='s and also the EH6CA7's.

This was back in 06' so the info you are getting now is right for all I know. I do know for a fact the Svets that were in mine were Russian. I think they tubed differently over here than in Europe on mine and even prior. Others I have talked to in Europe have said there DSL power tubes were Winged =C='s and not the Svetlana made in Russia I had. That always confused me.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/thetubestore_2169_6279195


----------



## Marshall Mann

big dooley said:


> marshall themselves are using JJ's or shuguangs in the preamp... not sovteks... as for powertubes those are winged C EL34's, the most popular EL34 there is and one the most reliable (i'm not fond of them though)
> 
> i do not recommend to put any new sensor tube (EH, tungsol, sovtek, mullard, etc), except the sovtek 12ax7wa, into V3 of the JVM... loads of reports on those brands failing in that position of the JVM... the issue is not so much in the Vkf voltage as the heatervoltage is elevated by 75volts, but the problem is the initial start up... the JVM in standby mode has B+ on all the tubes except the PI... the problem is that the grid of the cathode follower is right at HT potential, while the cathode is still at ground potential... it can't emit electrodes, as it is still cold... also, the cathode resistor has a very low value (47K instead of the regular 100K), which very likely doesn't help either
> these facts have been known to destroy tubes very easy and for some reason the new sensor tubes are vulnerable to this... i'm using a JJ ecc803 in this position as they are a beefier version of their regular ecc83's
> 
> the JJ ecc803 can be used in V1 or V2, but their large plates have a tendency to become microphonic easier, so indeed try to get a selected low microphony/ low noise type... especially for a high gain amp, like the JVM
> 
> the biggest improvement you can do on a stock JVM with stock tubes is a simple bias reset... these things are set mighty cold from the factory
> 
> in my case i'm running JJ KT77's biased very hot, along with 2 JJ ecc83's in V1 and V2, a JJ ecc803 in V3, a stock marshall (shuguang) in V4 and a GE 5751 JAN in V5 (PI)



Damn you are right about the bias on these things Dooly. I just sent this one back to it's owner with a full set of JJ's (standard issue 12ax7's and 6ca7's)






It was at 24ma out of the box, ice cold.

It took really well to the 6ca7's. I A/B'd them against JJ-KT77's (he has them in another amp) and he preferred the 6ca7s', and I think I have to agree.

EDIT - It had all Shuguang's in it stock.


----------



## yladrd61

RiverRatt said:


> These aren't Hungarian Tungsrams. There was also a plant in England that was owned by Philips. I'd _*really*_ like to check these out but I have a feeling they'll go pretty high.
> 
> 2 x Tungsram 12AX7 / ECC83 Valves / Tubes - Tested | eBay



Someone got a pair of Mint Blackburn Mullards for $61.00 I hope it was you


----------



## big dooley

solarburnDSL50 said:


> These were not Winged =C='s. In fact I bought the =C='s after getting rid of the Svets. It was an improvement in tone. I preferred the JJ 34L's over the Winged =C='s and also the EH6CA7's.
> 
> This was back in 06' so the info you are getting now is right for all I know. I do know for a fact the Svets that were in mine were Russian. I think they tubed differently over here than in Europe on mine and even prior. Others I have talked to in Europe have said there DSL power tubes were Winged =C='s and not the Svetlana made in Russia I had. That always confused me.
> 
> http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/thetubestore_2169_6279195



more confusing is that the winged C's are manufactured in russia as well... fortunatly it is very easy to tell the difference between the svet's and the C's by looking at the plates... the svet's have holes where the 2 parts are connected together, while the C's don't have these... my bandmate has a quad of old svetlana's, for which i first thought they were the new sensor svet's, but when i lokked at the plates i found out they were the real svet's, which are being known as winged C's as of today

JJE34L's are indeed great, but i preferred their KT77's in my DSL and later the JVM... next i'm going to try their 6CA7's


----------



## big dooley

Marshall Mann said:


> Damn you are right about the bias on these things Dooly. I just sent this one back to it's owner with a full set of JJ's (standard issue 12ax7's and 6ca7's)
> 
> It was at 24ma out of the box, ice cold.
> 
> It took really well to the 6ca7's. I A/B'd them against JJ-KT77's (he has them in another amp) and he preferred the 6ca7s', and I think I have to agree.
> 
> EDIT - It had all Shuguang's in it stock.



shuguangs in the preamp that is... so it's an older one... for the first few months of production they used shuguangs only in the preamp, as these were santiago's preference... their gain structure was tight, which suited the amp more according to his taste, but the low microphic selected tubes didn't have a stable enough quality, so marshall moved over to JJ's on certain positions... the combo's already had JJ's placed in V1, as these units are harder on tubes anyway... the very short plates on the JJ's seem to help preventing them from becoming microphonic early


----------



## MM54

This is almost relevant 

Anyone know where I can get a test socket? As in the kind with the things sticking out to measure voltages and stuff. I need one in 7-pin


----------



## Marshall Mann

big dooley said:


> shuguangs in the preamp that is... so it's an older one... for the first few months of production they used shuguangs only in the preamp, as these were santiago's preference... their gain structure was tight, which suited the amp more according to his taste, but the low microphic selected tubes didn't have a stable enough quality, so marshall moved over to JJ's on certain positions... the combo's already had JJ's placed in V1, as these units are harder on tubes anyway... the very short plates on the JJ's seem to help preventing them from becoming microphonic early



I have had good luck with the JJ's and low microphonics for high gain amps. It saves a lot of re-work when they get them out live and open them up. I was recommending Tungsol's but I had too many go bad on me.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> This is almost relevant
> 
> Anyone know where I can get a test socket? As in the kind with the things sticking out to measure voltages and stuff. I need one in 7-pin



2nd one down Matt.

Vacuum Tubes, Inc. > Products > Sockets, Adapters & Parts > Adapters and Parts


----------



## yladrd61

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, your eyes are better than mine! I can't see anything on them. I63 would have been common to several Philips 12AX7's. It's just the type code. Did you see a B date code?



B5B4


----------



## Marshall Mann

Joe and Alan,

You guys were right about those BEL's! WOW! Exactly what I was after! At first glance I though they were going to sound like my Amprex's. 

I have not had time to get them in the 6100 (just QC'd them in the MF), but I can wait to roll em in there!


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> 2nd one down Matt.
> 
> Vacuum Tubes, Inc. > Products > Sockets, Adapters & Parts > Adapters and Parts





Have you used them before? I'm getting warning about their security certificate for the online order form.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I knew they were bumble bee caps. I just wanted to stir Alan's pot.
> 
> I have a box of them from old TV sets.



Hey, stay away from my pot, man. 

One of those big carbon comp resistor coupling caps is cracked. I don't have a lot of 'em lying around either. I haven't tried to read the value yet. I have to get out a chart every time.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, stay away from my pot, man.
> 
> One of those big carbon comp resistor coupling caps is cracked. I don't have a lot of 'em lying around either. I haven't tried to read the value yet. I have to get out a chart every time.



Let me know what the color code is and I'll check my bin, I might have one


----------



## MM54

So I started cleaning the outside of my 707 today since I got most of the inside cleaned out (Other than the sockets... still trying to figure out how I'll clean all those). I figure this will keep me busy until I get my parts order for the recap and calibration.

The box shows all 43 years of dirt, and even where someone wrote their name on, what looks like about 35 of them ago. It's cleaning up nicely though with my very strong alcohol and a lot of scrubbing. Anyone have any ideas of what to do about the rusted hardware that doesn't involve removing it? (Corners, Latches, and Hinges)


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> This is almost relevant
> 
> Anyone know where I can get a test socket? As in the kind with the things sticking out to measure voltages and stuff. I need one in 7-pin



Matt, the one I have is pretty homemade looking. It looks like somebody took an octal base and put a socket in the top of it. It even comes apart a little when you try to pull the tube out. I wouldn't think it'd be hard to make at all.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, the one I have is pretty homemade looking. It looks like somebody took an octal base and put a socket in the top of it. It even comes apart a little when you try to pull the tube out. I wouldn't think it'd be hard to make at all.



If I were doing it for an octal socket I'd definitely just run some wires up into banana jacks or something mounted solidly on the top of the base. The problem is I need the test socket in 7-pin mini (think 60's radio tubes) to calibrate the 707. Since it's a glass-base tube, I don't think I can pick a base up anywhere


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, those Telefunkens that were in the organ are some strange tubes. One has the diamond in the base and one doesn't, otherwise they are identical twins. These are the first Tele's I've gotten with seams in the top. Unfortunately most of the writing is completely gone now. They had a thick layer of crud on them and most of the writing went with it. The IEC Mullards are 1962 Blackburn stock. Four Mullards in one month - I'm on a roll!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> If I were doing it for an octal socket I'd definitely just run some wires up into banana jacks or something mounted solidly on the top of the base. The problem is I need the test socket in 7-pin mini (think 60's radio tubes) to calibrate the 707. Since it's a glass-base tube, I don't think I can pick a base up anywhere



I think it can still be done. Seems like I was trying to make an adapter at one time and came up with the bright idea of breaking off the base and chipping the glass off it until I could fit it in a piece of PVC pipe, then putting a socket on the other end. I still think it would have worked, but I got frustrated with it and gave up. Too hard for my old eyes to do solder work that delicate!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I think it can still be done. Seems like I was trying to make an adapter at one time and came up with the bright idea of breaking off the base and chipping the glass off it until I could fit it in a piece of PVC pipe, then putting a socket on the other end. I still think it would have worked, but I got frustrated with it and gave up. Too hard for my old eyes to do solder work that delicate!





I have pipe laying around that could work for that (I might actually have glass pipe I could actually melt into it) if I can bring myself to sacrifice a B7G from my box of... erm... dead tubes. If it doesn't work, I'll order a proper test socket tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes 

(Maybe I'll get a chance to use my homemade tack welder )


----------



## RiverRatt

I've probably got over a hundred 7-pin tubes somewhere around here. I never found a use for them outside of restoring old bakelite radios which I have no desire or inclination to do.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> Have you used them before? I'm getting warning about their security certificate for the online order form.



I have Matt, (without issue), but honestly, not for some time.

Try Nebraska Surplus

http://www.surplussales.com/Tube-Sockets/TubeSkts-1.html


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I've probably got over a hundred 7-pin tubes somewhere around here. I never found a use for them outside of restoring old bakelite radios which I have no desire or inclination to do.



I have a bunch as well, I figure someday they might be worth something. If not, I'll decorate my house with them. I have a similar issue with compactrons 

Don't get me started on TV tubes and the occasional loctal 



Marshall Mann said:


> I have Matt, (without issue), but honestly, not for some time.
> 
> Try Nebraska Surplus
> 
> Vacuum Tubes & Test Accessories



I'll take a look there as well


----------



## solarburn

big dooley said:


> more confusing is that the winged C's are manufactured in russia as well... fortunatly it is very easy to tell the difference between the svet's and the C's by looking at the plates... the svet's have holes where the 2 parts are connected together, while the C's don't have these... my bandmate has a quad of old svetlana's, for which i first thought they were the new sensor svet's, but when i lokked at the plates i found out they were the real svet's, which are being known as winged C's as of today
> 
> JJE34L's are indeed great, but i preferred their KT77's in my DSL and later the JVM... next i'm going to try their 6CA7's



I don't have them anymore to check again but they indeed looked different. This was like 3yrs ago. More telling was how the lower end appeared and some of that upper frequency harshness diminished when I popped the C's in with the same preamp tubes and speakers.

I used KT-77's in mine too and liked them. I haven't tried the JJ 6CA7's. Let us know what you think of the them. I'd like to know. 

I think my fav lineup for the DSL were:

1. JJ34L's
2. EH6CA7's
3. Winged =C='s


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's one of my Svets that came in my DSL. Another giveaway is the date code. My pair was made in 2000 which was well before New Sensor ruined them. I didn't like the bass response as well as the RFT's or GTEL34M's but they had a nice midrange to them.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I don't have them anymore to check again but they indeed looked different. This was like 3yrs ago. More telling was how the lower end appeared and some of that upper frequency harshness diminished when I popped the C's in with the same preamp tubes and speakers.
> 
> I used KT-77's in mine too and liked them. I haven't tried the JJ 6CA7's. Let us know what you think of the them. I'd like to know.
> 
> I think my fav lineup for the DSL were:
> 
> 1. JJ34L's
> 2. EH6CA7's
> 3. Winged =C='s



I have been really impressed with the the JJ 6ca7's. I was a die hard KT-77 fan, but the 6ca7's have a richer mid. And for $27 a pair they are hard to beat!


----------



## MM54

On the short note of power tubes, I've been on the lookout for a KT88 or 6550 to try out in the CA10 just to get a taste of them, if any of you have a single laying around, of any decent quality, obviously CP is fine, shoot me a PM


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have an EL34 amp anymore. If anybody wants the Svets, speak up. They still have some life left in them. If I end up with another amp that uses EL34's I'll probably go with some more EL34M's or RFT's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, I've got some oddball tubes but no 88's or 6550's. I've got a buttload of nice old 6L6GB's that should make great tone tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, I've got some oddball tubes but no 88's or 6550's. I've got a buttload of nice old 6L6GB's that should make great tone tubes.





Let me see if I can find a spec sheet for the GB, I wouldn't want to blow anything up


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I have been really impressed with the the JJ 6ca7's. I was a die hard KT-77 fan, but the 6ca7's have a richer mid. And for $27 a pair they are hard to beat!



Cool. I have wondered about them. Great price!

Who doesn't love rich mids man.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Let me see if I can find a spec sheet for the GB, I wouldn't want to blow anything up



Think of them basically as a 19 watt 5881. Have you got Duncan's Tube Data Sheet Locator Personal Edition on your computer? Check 'em out if you don't. They have a lot of cool little apps.

Software


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, I've got some oddball tubes but no 88's or 6550's. I've got a buttload of nice old 6L6GB's that should make great tone tubes.





MM54 said:


> Let me see if I can find a spec sheet for the GB, I wouldn't want to blow anything up



Hmm, it's close. 360 is their max rating for the plate, I'll have about 355 on it. It's over the RCA sheet's specs for max plate voltage in class A1, but I also have a lot heavier cathode resistor which would bring it back a bit... paired up with a lower load than spec'ed and I have no idea where that puts it 

But hey, if you're interested in selling one or two for the right price, I'll give them a shot. Who knows, maybe they'll be magic in there. Worst I can do is blow up the CA10


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Who doesn't love rich mids man.



You really need to get acquainted with KT-66's, Joe. With some greenbacks, you'll have a new definition of rich mids. I think my ideal amp might be a JTM45 clone with a PPIMV. I've been visiting the Ceriatone website a lot lately. That's dangerous.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Think of them basically as a 19 watt 5881. Have you got Duncan's Tube Data Sheet Locator Personal Edition on your computer? Check 'em out if you don't. They have a lot of cool little apps.
> 
> Software



Nope, but I have a shelf that is growing every so often with print copies of datasheets on it 

I like stuff like schematics and spec sheets on paper, a lot easier to carry around and reference while on the computer


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You really need to get acquainted with KT-66's, Joe. With some greenbacks, you'll have a new definition of rich mids. I think my ideal amp might be a JTM45 clone with a PPIMV. I've been visiting the Ceriatone website a lot lately. That's dangerous.



I hear ya! You know originally I wanted a JTM45. Ceriatone has some great amps for good prices. I have Nick bookmarked. As poor as I am I may have to get a clone.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've about decided I could stand just having the JTM45 chassis for now and add a head box when I'm able. That makes the project almost do-able. If you order it w/o any transformers, either the Lydian or Magnetic Components ones might be a good option to try. That's the only complaint I've heard about Nick's stuff - the transformers get some negative comments.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, that chassis option is only $340. I've got an excellent old Stancor 6,800 output transformer that I tested in another amp. It would be great in a JTM45. That just leaves me with the OT, choke and the tubes. I just sold my last GZ34, too, dammit. I have everything else.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, that chassis option is only $340. I've got an excellent old Stancor 6,800 output transformer that I tested in another amp. It would be great in a JTM45. That just leaves me with the OT, choke and the tubes. I just sold my last GZ34, too, dammit. I have everything else.



You know I have a GZ34...


----------



## solarburn

Did I mention its a Mullard...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Joe-I noticed that Jon Wilder changed his SIG. Is he building/modding amps again? I've talked to him on the phone recently and I didn't ask him. Thought you might have heard something.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, that chassis option is only $340. I've got an excellent old Stancor 6,800 output transformer that I tested in another amp. It would be great in a JTM45. That just leaves me with the OT, choke and the tubes. I just sold my last GZ34, too, dammit. I have everything else.



I've found that when building amps, the transformers can easily be 30% of the cost, and the tubes, depending how many you need and what kind, another 25-30%

Then there's the pain-in-the-ass factor of drilling chassis, but that's another day's rant


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I've about decided I could stand just having the JTM45 chassis for now and add a head box when I'm able.



Are you talking about the JTM45 with two 6L6GC's in it? If so, you really are a Fender man. 

Nah, just kidding. If that is your cup of tea, drink it.


----------



## solarburn

Since he did Lynch's he may very well be. I know he does some once in awhile but I haven't heard from him if he is full on again. By the sig it sure intimates it.

I'd want him to put external bias points on my amp though he won't do it now...

He knows how afraid I am of shocking myself!:Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

I was thinking of making something out of my DSL. Could use the OT, PT and choke plus the head shell. Possibly the chassis too depending on what Jon and I decide could fit with minimal drilling/cutting. Its been a ponder for us here and there...


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I was thinking of making something out of my DSL. Could use the OT, PT and choke plus the head shell. Possibly the chassis too depending on what Jon and I decide could fit with minimal drilling/cutting. Its been a ponder for us here and there...



It would be cool to have a chassis/box ready to go, sockets and trannys etc wired up, with the board in with spade connectors so you could have a few different amps in one


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> It would be cool to have a chassis/box ready to go, sockets and trannys etc wired up, with the board in with spade connectors so you could have a few different amps in one



Well the OT/PT are new. MM's fat stack. The Choke is a 3 Henry. I think it would be cool to do a Dual Classic or something around Jon's amp. Love the tone. I still may do it. Otherwise the DSL is gathering dust with issues.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well the OT/PT are new. MM's fat stack. The Choke is a 3 Henry. I think it would be cool to do a Dual Classic or something around Jon's amp. Love the tone. I still may do it. Otherwise the DSL is gathering dust with issues.



What issues are you having with it?


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> What issues are you having with it?



It looses its girth randomly. Not volume but body. Jon thinks it may be the board or another issue he recently found with another DSL. The thing is I have put so much money into it already it pains me to trouble shoot it further. That and I want a different Marshall as it is. So we thought of creating an amp I want since it has some great hardware on it to use. That is when I get money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It has the worst problem of all. Intermittent.


----------



## solarburn

And it just kills my Psyche when it happens. I hate intermittent issue with amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Before I go to bed, here is an email from Daniel, the President of the Tube Store.

Thanks for the feedback Marty and please thank your crew as well.

We also noticed this tube is more sensitive than some others when 
tapping on it and have worked with the factory to get this down. Out 
review done By John Templeon on our website also mentions this. All the 
tubes we sent you were played full out on our custom built combo test 
amp. It’s a Champ style with an open back for easy access. We know 
closed backs have more standing waves to deal with but we need the easy 
access. As you know, how a tube reacts in one amp can be dramatically 
different in another.

We also use a custom-built noise tester for each and every NE tube. I 
know that NOS are highly sought after but from experience I can say most 
of our NOS’s will not test as well. If we took a sealed 100 box of JAN 
GE 12AX7’s and tested in the manner we would fail more of the GE’s than 
the NE’s. We know this because we have done this testing for a very 
particular large customer.

In our software system we track all warranty returns and their reasons 
for every tube sold since we started 12 years ago. We know the exact 
failure rate for every tube and NOS fails are almost the same. Here are 
some 12AX7 rates for the past year of sales.

Electro Harmonix … 0.39%
Tung-Sol reissue….. 0.15%
Preferred Series……0.38%
JAN Philips 12AX7..1.12%
RFT ECC83………..1.27%
JAN Philips 5751…..1.02%
Northern Electric is currently a 0% for three months sales.

On tubes we sold for years we can utilize the large amount of customer 
feedback to provide direction to our customers and create re-tubing 
packages for common amps. Our Northern Electric is still too new to 
predict in what amps it will work best.

I hear you on the cost and I’m doing what I can with the factory. I am 
trying to create something new for the North American marketplace and am 
trying to keep the costs as low as I can while still controlling 
quality. The other two Chinese factories I’ve dealt with have 
dramatically lower prices but cannot provide the quality and design we 
need. I could eat off the factory floor where we get the NE’s made and 
their equipment and processes are far more advanced. Up to now Mr Liu 
produced for high-end audio only in his factory and we’re working 
together to produce for the guitar amp market. If we can increase column 
I know we can bring down the cost. Right now I’m trying to do this.

Regarding the fancy box cost. We found a US company to produce the metal 
box for us at a cost of only 36 cents more per unit than the locally 
produced paper box the 7025 comes in. We do not mark up this cost.

Again thanks for giving them a listen and I appreciate the comments and 
feedback.

Regards.

Dan Koetsier
thetubestore.com

*****************************************************************

I wish to personally thank all those who participated. I copied and pasted all of your comments on a WORD document and sent it to Daniel. Let's hope that the quality of the Northern Electric's goes up and the cost comes down.


----------



## Marshall Mann

I know what you mean Joe. Nothing is worse! It can affect my playing as well! It would be fine then, blau! It would loose it's nuts! Totally ruining by jam.
I thought it was in the PI socket / and traces for months. It ended up being the relay in the dampening circuit!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Before I go to bed, here is an email from Daniel, the President of the Tube Store.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback Marty and please thank your crew as well.
> 
> We also noticed this tube is more sensitive than some others when
> tapping on it and have worked with the factory to get this down. Out
> review done By John Templeon on our website also mentions this. All the
> tubes we sent you were played full out on our custom built combo test
> amp. It’s a Champ style with an open back for easy access. We know
> closed backs have more standing waves to deal with but we need the easy
> access. As you know, how a tube reacts in one amp can be dramatically
> different in another.
> 
> We also use a custom-built noise tester for each and every NE tube. I
> know that NOS are highly sought after but from experience I can say most
> of our NOS’s will not test as well. If we took a sealed 100 box of JAN
> GE 12AX7’s and tested in the manner we would fail more of the GE’s than
> the NE’s. We know this because we have done this testing for a very
> particular large customer.
> 
> In our software system we track all warranty returns and their reasons
> for every tube sold since we started 12 years ago. We know the exact
> failure rate for every tube and NOS fails are almost the same. Here are
> some 12AX7 rates for the past year of sales.
> 
> Electro Harmonix … 0.39%
> Tung-Sol reissue….. 0.15%
> Preferred Series……0.38%
> JAN Philips 12AX7..1.12%
> RFT ECC83………..1.27%
> JAN Philips 5751…..1.02%
> Northern Electric is currently a 0% for three months sales.
> 
> On tubes we sold for years we can utilize the large amount of customer
> feedback to provide direction to our customers and create re-tubing
> packages for common amps. Our Northern Electric is still too new to
> predict in what amps it will work best.
> 
> I hear you on the cost and I’m doing what I can with the factory. I am
> trying to create something new for the North American marketplace and am
> trying to keep the costs as low as I can while still controlling
> quality. The other two Chinese factories I’ve dealt with have
> dramatically lower prices but cannot provide the quality and design we
> need. I could eat off the factory floor where we get the NE’s made and
> their equipment and processes are far more advanced. Up to now Mr Liu
> produced for high-end audio only in his factory and we’re working
> together to produce for the guitar amp market. If we can increase column
> I know we can bring down the cost. Right now I’m trying to do this.
> 
> Regarding the fancy box cost. We found a US company to produce the metal
> box for us at a cost of only 36 cents more per unit than the locally
> produced paper box the 7025 comes in. We do not mark up this cost.
> 
> Again thanks for giving them a listen and I appreciate the comments and
> feedback.
> 
> Regards.
> 
> Dan Koetsier
> thetubestore.com
> 
> *****************************************************************
> 
> I wish to personally thank all those who participated. I copied and pasted all of your comments on a WORD document and sent it to Daniel. Let's hope that the quality of the Northern Electric's goes up and the cost comes down.



Thanks for putting the teat together Marty!

You da Man!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish to personally thank all those who participated. I copied and pasted all of your comments on a WORD document and sent it to Daniel. Let's hope that the quality of the Northern Electric's goes up and the cost comes down.



Well I thought it sounded great. Just need to get microphonics managed. I know the Tube Store would have replaced mine until I got one that didn't have an audible microphonic noise. All tubes are microphonic. I want the ones that you can't hear while playing hehe.

It was a great test and it was real world...in our amps. 

I wonder if those percentages up there comparing CP to NOS failures/issues are based on equal sales. Meaning for example were there more RFT's bought and reported therefore a higher percentage of issues reflected? Just a thought.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I wonder if those percentages up there comparing CP to NOS failures/issues are based on equal sales. Meaning for example were there more RFT's bought and reported therefore a higher percentage of issues reflected? Just a thought.



Great point. There is no way they are going to sell identical amounts of each type of tube.

Those are low failure rates regardless.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A diamond necklace?

A ruby necklace?

A sapphire necklace?

*No, a gooey pearl necklace!*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also known as "sperm lasso's."


----------



## solarburn

Eggsactly!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good night. I did my hour workout at the "Y" at 6 PM and I'm ready to hit the hay. 

You fellars have a good night.


----------



## solarburn

Later Spermarticus!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good night. I did my hour workout at the "Y" at 6 PM and I'm ready to hit the hay.
> 
> You fellars have a good night.



G night Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you talking about the JTM45 with two 6L6GC's in it? If so, you really are a Fender man.
> 
> Nah, just kidding. If that is your cup of tea, drink it.



No, I've got an extra pair of KT66's thanks to Mr. Cody.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> It looses its girth randomly. Not volume but body. Jon thinks it may be the board or another issue he recently found with another DSL. The thing is I have put so much money into it already it pains me to trouble shoot it further. That and I want a different Marshall as it is. So we thought of creating an amp I want since it has some great hardware on it to use. That is when I get money.



That's the worst. Intermittent problems are next to impossible to diagnose quickly, all I can suggest for you is (assuming all the tubes are known good ) trying to reflow all the boards in case a bad joint is heating up and cutting out. It'll take a while but, if nothing else, you'll know later down the road you don't have any bad solder joints


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of the reasons I went back to old school amps was their dependability. The DSL/TSL amps have way to much junk in them for me. The signal path goes through a lot of SS stuff.

Most of you guys know that when I got the JMP 2203, it was shipped direct to Jon Wilder. Jon called me and said the amp had been modded. The PCB was completely gone and a turret board was being used. Truthfully, I like the turret board better. I complained to the seller and got $100 taken off the price. I got the JMP for $650. Yeah baby. 

Here is a gut shot of pure porn.



Jon resoldered this board as it had a few problems with sloppy connections. Of course, he redid the heater wires. These pictures are the "before" shots.

Bottom line-Old shit is hard to beat in tone and durability. Both my JMP and JCM are good to go for another 12 to 15 years. 

When I die, Joe gets my JMP.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of the reasons I went back to old school amps was their dependability. The DSL/TSL amps have way to much junk in them for me. The signal path goes through a lot of SS stuff.
> 
> Most of you guys know that when I got the JMP 2203, it was shipped direct to Jon Wilder. Jon called me and said the amp had been modded. The PCB was completely gone and a turret board was being used. Truthfully, I like the turret board better. I complained to the seller and got $100 taken off the price. I got the JMP for $650. Yeah baby.
> 
> Here is a gut shot of pure porn.
> 
> 
> 
> Jon resoldered this board as it had a few problems with sloppy connections. Of course, he redid the heater wires. These pictures are the "before" shots.
> 
> Bottom line-Old shit is hard to beat in tone and durability. Both my JMP and JCM are good to go for another 12 to 15 years.
> 
> When I die, Joe gets my JMP.



That just feels wrong. I get xcited cause I get the amp but that means "Elvis has just left the building". I'd rather you just stick around and I'll try to pick me up a JMP. Then we can gush all over how good our Marshall's sound till everyone on the board gets sick of hearing about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well you are ten years younger than I am. I'm sure that I will "leave" before you do. Maybe when I turn 60, I'll sell it to you. I turn 57 on October 9.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Double Post via the forum ghosts.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> That's the worst. Intermittent problems are next to impossible to diagnose quickly, all I can suggest for you is (assuming all the tubes are known good ) trying to reflow all the boards in case a bad joint is heating up and cutting out. It'll take a while but, if nothing else, you'll know later down the road you don't have any bad solder joints



Even after SJ's have been re-flowed it still does it. That's part of my frustration. It didn't fix it and that's why it sits. I think the only thing left was to change the boards out for another $225 in parts plus labor. 

I can't tell you how much I've put in to it with mods and fixes cause its embarrassing how much I spent on it. Give you an idea it went to Voodoo amps first. Then to FJA and then to Jon. The problem had been occurring before it went to Wilder. Jon's mod to it sounded sooo good. That damn problem would rear it ugly head intermittently though. I gave up on it before he did.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well you are ten years younger than I am. I'm sure that I will "leave" before you do. Maybe when I turn 60, I'll sell it to you. I turn 57 on October 9.



Well I definitely like that scenario much better. Sheesh!

Here's too many, many more days of Marshall tone & Haught Babes together!

Death sux. No more strippers...


----------



## BluesRocker

Why no strippers? 


Damn


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys I thought I would share this.. After I got home from orientation for school, I cranked this baby to 8.. My oh My.. What a tone.. It would be nice to have some NOS 5881 or 6L6s in there.. But the JJ's sound fine as is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some people get cranked on meth and some people crank their Marshall's.


----------



## RiverRatt

What is that amp set up to run, Cody? I just got rid of some nice 5881's. I still have several pairs of 6L6GC's. I'll bet you'd need a quad, though.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah it is set to run 5881s.. I will need a quad.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those 6L6's that were in the organ are old Sylvania short bottles. Probably from around 1960. Very nice tubes! I'm going to put some nice old 6V6GT's in it, which is what it should have had in the first place. Marty, you still didn't tell me what the Telefunkens with the seams on top are. I know they ain't RFT or Ei. Did S&H ever make a smooth plate tube for Telefunken?


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah it is set to run 5881s.. I will need a quad.



I wish you'd said something back when we were trading stuff. I could have hooked you up.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan would those 6L6s not work in my amp?


----------



## RiverRatt

6L6GC's would work, but they would probably be running on the cold side. That can work in a Fender but I don't know about a Marshall.


----------



## BluesRocker

It has JJ 6L6GCs in it i believe..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that's a GC amp and all you can use is GC's and maybe KT66's (27W vs. 30W). The KT's can handle a bit higher plate and screen voltage (See JJ data on the Tube Store).


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, you still didn't tell me what the Telefunkens with the seams on top are. I know they ain't RFT or Ei. Did S&H ever make a smooth plate tube for Telefunken?



Sorry about that Alan. Joe distracted me.

Telefunken's are still being counterfeited to this day. Of course you have probably read where the Chinese knock-offs have a baked on logo that won't rub off.

However, being that these tubes came out of an old organ, we have to look at Telefunken around the early 70's. They did in fact farm out orders to various other tube manufacturers. "Some were even allowed to put the <> on the bottom of the tubes.

Since it has seams, it could very well be an S and H or a VALVO. Did you say there were any codes on the tubes? I have eight Ei Telefunken's and they are smooth plates. They look just like a Telefunken. Joe tried one out and didn't like it as much as a real Telefunken. (That was a long time ago, hey Joe?) No codes, but the tubes say, "Made in West Germany." It could be a Philips made tube with no codes.

What sort of construction are they? I've put clear pic's of the S and H, VALVO and EI's here on the thread, but good luck finding them.

Can you post a clear pic?


----------



## solarburn

Hahahaha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well this should put a spike in our viewership.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just wanted to add that all of these girls are great around TUBES.


----------



## solarburn

Crap...pic wouldn't show. Damn shame too.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah we better not flood the thread with them.LOL!

I can get out of hand real quick.

That's what she said...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that's the reason I let the BooB's thread slide. It took too much time finding suitable pictures and then I had to go on porn sites and most of them have spyware or bugs. I stick to the college friendly websites. 

Who doesn't like young, college aged girls?

Yes, this could get out of hand quick.


----------



## MM54

Crisis averted. (unfortunately)


----------



## BluesRocker

Boobies!

Wait.. No... Marshalls!!!!!!!!!!

Take It Down A Little Blues.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd like to have a dozens or so of them slant getter VALVO's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They're expensive on EBAY. I can't afford to bid on them. The regular halo getters are not as pricey, but they don't sound as good as the slant getter.


----------



## MM54

Hell, at that I'd like to have a dozen of every type of 12AX7 ever made 

I'd need a bigger tube storage unit


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd like to have a dozens or so of them slant getter VALVO's.



Don't you mean those "slut getter"...


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Boobies!
> 
> Wait.. No... Marshalls!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Take It Down A Little Blues.mp3



Awh mannnn...

That made me kick back and chill. Problem is I have to get to work.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Awh mannnn...
> 
> That made me kick back and chill. Problem is I have to get to work.



At 12:40AM? :eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe is a West Coast Kid. He works the night shift most of the time.


----------



## BluesRocker

Dang Joe, didnt know you worked on Saturdays


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe works a "floating" schedule.


----------



## MM54

In his last two posts, Marty sounds like some sort of official spokesperson for Joe


----------



## solarburn

Yeah right now I work Saturday through Wednesday graveyard shift. 

I hav'n some donuts now and watching "Back To The Future". Marty just did an audition at school playing guitar and they said he's too loud. Bitches!

Classic movie...and donuts.LOL


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> In his last two posts, Marty sounds like some sort of official spokesperson for Joe



Make that unofficial. I don't want to have to pay him.

Someone had to clue you guys in!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah right now I work Saturday through Wednesday graveyard shift.
> 
> I hav'n some donuts now and watching "Back To The Future". Marty just did an audition at school playing guitar and they said he's too loud. Bitches!
> 
> Classic movie...and donuts.LOL



Did you know that's Huey Lewis who tells them they are just too darned loud?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP1HeThUlvw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP1HeThUlvw[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Did you know that's Huey Lewis who tells them they are just too darned loud?
> 
> ‪The Pinheads Power of Love - Back to the Future‬&rlm; - YouTube



Yeah. Ironic hah?LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

That was a cool movie. I wonder what Doc had powering that amp? 16 or so KT120's?

There was a little mom and pop music store that had one of those little Chiquita guitars for years. Of course by the time I was old enough to know what it was, it was gone. I wish I'd bought that thing.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That was a cool movie. I wonder what Doc had powering that amp? 16 or so KT120's?
> 
> There was a little mom and pop music store that had one of those little Chiquita guitars for years. Of course by the time I was old enough to know what it was, it was gone. I wish I'd bought that thing.



That would have been cool if you were able to get one. I love when he cranks it up and hits the strings blow'n him back and the amp up!

Whoa!LOL


----------



## BluesRocker

I feel like blowing up now.. On a damn sneezing roll


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's photos of those weird Telefunkens:
















And the IEC/International Mullard 7025A's:


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Ok. Had the honor and the opportunity to try the Northeastern Tubes from Marty. Here is my take on them:
First off...being CP tubes I didnt think it fair to compare them to my NOS tubes so I wont. I had a set of decent CP tubes, so I loaded them in first to get a baseline. The NE's aren't bad for CP...a little glassy, but not as ice pick as Tong Sol's...not as dull as EH's...very gainy and in between those two as far as overall tone. Were I to have to choose between CP tubes...these would be at the top of the list.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Thank you very much Marty for allowing me this opportunity. They would have been out the door to you Saturday had UPS still been open, I will get them out tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

What did you think of the 7025, Chuck?


----------



## BluesRocker

Whats up Alan!


----------



## solarburn

chuckharmonjr said:


> Ok. Had the honor and the opportunity to try the Northeastern Tubes from Marty. Here is my take on them:
> First off...being CP tubes I didnt think it fair to compare them to my NOS tubes so I wont. I had a set of decent CP tubes, so I loaded them in first to get a baseline. The NE's aren't bad for CP...a little glassy, but not as ice pick as Tong Sol's...not as dull as EH's...very gainy and in between those two as far as overall tone. Were I to have to choose between CP tubes...these would be at the top of the list.



Chuck, did you know the Northern is at the same price point as NOS tubes? $58

In my mind they better be stout, no audible microphonics and dynamic/toneful. Pretty much like my NOS.LOL!


----------



## RiverRatt

Just postin' pics of the new preamp tubes. Played for awhile but kept getting interrupted so I quit. Just came a nice little thunderstorm to cool things off. I'm probably going to turn in and get some rest before MONDAY hits. I worked out in the yard yesterday and then grilled some chops. I'm sunburned and tired and about half lit.


----------



## BluesRocker

I hear ya Alan... I was moving stuff out of the house today into dad's.. Got all my guitar equipment moved except for my 6100, AX cab, and my LP..


----------



## solarburn

Have a good eve'n Alan. the weather here is finally reflecting summer and not spring. Sunshine, blue sky and 80's.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I hear ya Alan... I was moving stuff out of the house today into dad's.. Got all my guitar equipment moved except for my 6100, AX cab, and my LP..



Cody when you move that AX cab put my address on it...K?


----------



## BluesRocker

Haha! good try Joe.. Good try.. I believe that will go to the grave with me.. Along with my SLP.

I am debating trading my 6100


----------



## RiverRatt

I might could suffer through one more drink before I turn in. Those IEC Mullards were sounding good, but they aren't as smooth as that older one I got. I'm starting to get a feel for tube rolling in the VM. I did discover yesterday that it's about impossible to improve on the Raytheon black plate in V2, whether it's the VM or DSL.


----------



## BluesRocker

I agree with you on that... A Ray BP in V2 is the ultimate tube


----------



## RiverRatt

What's wrong with the 6100? You should be able to move that easily.


----------



## BluesRocker

Nothing is wrong with it.. There is someone that is looking for one and has a 2204 to trade.. I always wanted an 800


----------



## RiverRatt

I always wanted to get a 2204S to go on top of that 1966 cabinet. I just don't have the luxury of cranking an amp like that to make it sound good.


----------



## BluesRocker

Me either.. But now that I am in a band.. (even though it is a christian rock band) I can crank them some what.. lol I cant imagine having a 1959 and a 2204


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's some cheap one's I was watching. Note: I said watching.

8 Matched 12AX7 Bugle Boy 50's Amperex Tubes "D" Foil - eBay (item 170669646466 end time Jul-24-11 18:08:10 PDT)


----------



## BluesRocker

Link didnt work Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Copy and paste the item number in the search box and it will work. Whenever you get that message, just look in the URL for the item number and copy and paste it. Then it will bring up old listings.


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Marty... I should have knew that.. lol


----------



## Lowlife

Ouch sold for 1265 $, i should start scrounging old attics and whatnot


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Ouch sold for 1265 $, i should start scrounging old attics and whatnot



Where better to find Valvo, S and H and Telefunkens than in Germany. 

Lots of guys from Germany on EBAY selling tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Here's photos of those weird Telefunkens:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the IEC/International Mullard 7025A's:



I compared your tubes to my Ei and RFT Tele's. Also to the S and H and Valvo. It was none of these. Do all of your ?Tele's? have the same construction? If you notice the ears on the plates are folded to the outside. All of the tubes I looked at have the ears folded to the inside. My tubes just have two seams, yours has four.

I'll keep looking, but for right now, I can't help you on this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The tube on the right has the ears folded to the inside and has the <> on the bottom, but both have the four seams.

These are mystery tubes.


----------



## BluesRocker

CSI Investigation time!


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought they looked closest to my one S&H tube. They definitely aren't Ei. I wish the F'in label had stayed on. That's my biggest bitch with Telefunkens. I wished they'd used better paint or etching when they did the logos. There aren't any factory codes at all on them, but they are clearly some sort of Philips tube. The exhaust tip doesn't look like any other Philips tube I've seen either.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys,

Wow I'm loving those BEL's! Great in everything!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, yeah, rub it in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Usually, you can get the BEL's for less money than a Mullard. Same construction.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, yeah, rub it in.



Sorry RR! But hey, you asked me to tell you how much I liked them!!!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Usually, you can get the BEL's for less money than a Mullard. Same construction.



They look just like a Mullard, or Amprex, but to my ears they are much more open in the bottom end that either.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Sorry RR! But hey, you asked me to tell you how much I liked them!!!



That's OK. I'm rolling in Mullards right now and I've got that BEL that Joe sent me. I need to be selling tubes anyway, not buying more


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hell, since this thread started, Joe and Alan have a huge stash of 12__7 tubes. 

Alan also has a huge pile of TV/Radio tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

You want 'em? I'll send you several hundred for the cost of shipping. I don't have the time, patience or knowledge to make any money off the things. If the voltage ain't 6.3v or 12.6v or maybe 5v, I'm lost. I've been listening to some HAM guys name off their favorite tubes and I'm like "Dude, if it starts with a 17 or a 21, you've lost me." I traded him a handful of RCA 6146's and he was happy as hell to get them. Once he told me the specs, I was thinking that you could make the USA equivalent of the Marshall Major with these things. They were used in old theater and PA amps. He showed me some tubes that looked like Martian spaceships and were about the size of a floodlamp.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> You want 'em? I'll send you several hundred for the cost of shipping. I don't have the time, patience or knowledge to make any money off the things. If the voltage ain't 6.3v or 12.6v or maybe 5v, I'm lost. I've been listening to some HAM guys name off their favorite tubes and I'm like "Dude, if it starts with a 17 or a 21, you've lost me." I traded him a handful of RCA 6146's and he was happy as hell to get them. Once he told me the specs, I was thinking that you could make the USA equivalent of the Marshall Major with these things. They were used in old theater and PA amps. He showed me some tubes that looked like Martian spaceships and were about the size of a floodlamp.





I have a couple hundred that I dont know what to do with. Especially with out the ability to test them.


----------



## MM54

I have drawers full of random old tubes I've tested and recorded the results for, I like having a lot of tubes 

Yes, even the ones that start with 17 and 21 and 50 and 1 and all the other off voltages


----------



## SpacedOutAce

Just curious... are Matsushita's seamed? Cuz there seems to be some at the top of the two I got and wasn't sure if it's a seam or a break.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yep. Just like Mullard, Amperex, etc. - practically anybody that Philips had a hand in.


----------



## ultra88

Just joined this site, not sure if im doing this right as far as posting a question, so here goes...i just bought a jmp1 preamp to hook into my monobloc el34 amp, trouble im having is i cant bet signal out of the main outs, only the speaker emulator jacks....is something wrong with this preamp? sugestions?....


----------



## solarburn

ultra88 said:


> Just joined this site, not sure if im doing this right as far as posting a question, so here goes...i just bought a jmp1 preamp to hook into my monobloc el34 amp, trouble im having is i cant bet signal out of the main outs, only the speaker emulator jacks....is something wrong with this preamp? sugestions?....



Welcome ultra 88! Copy and post this in the work bench section. You will definitely get some help. Here's the link...

The Workbench - Marshall Amp Forum


----------



## SpacedOutAce

RiverRatt said:


> Yep. Just like Mullard, Amperex, etc. - practically anybody that Philips had a hand in.



Ah. I knew about Mullard and some other's have seams but not Matsushita, which is why I asked. Thanks.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem. If you want to check it out, there's a copy of the Philips Factory Code book I posted a PDF link to a page or two back. It lists all the Philips companies, how to decode the factory code that was (sometimes) printed on the tube, how to read date codes, etc. It's a great resource if you are getting into tube collecting. 

Most of the Philips company tubes share similar construction, with some being brighter and others darker, some with stronger mids and others that are sweet hi-fi tubes. AFAIK, they all have seams in the top. You can even use the look of the seams to figure out who did (or didn't) make the tube even if its print is gone or it's been relabeled. 

Other than the ubiquitous Raytheon black plate 12AX7 in V2, I run almost all Philips tubes in Marshall amps, at least in V1 and V4. Telefunken, RFT and Tungsram Hungary are some great tubes that aren't Philips manufacture but they are still in that same tonal range. 

BTW, welcome to our addiction


----------



## sccloser

I have one of those Tungsram Hungarian types...so it is a good one?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. They make a very nice V1 tube in a Marshall.


----------



## SpacedOutAce

RiverRatt said:


> No problem. If you want to check it out, there's a copy of the Philips Factory Code book I posted a PDF link to a page or two back. It lists all the Philips companies, how to decode the factory code that was (sometimes) printed on the tube, how to read date codes, etc. It's a great resource if you are getting into tube collecting.
> 
> Most of the Philips company tubes share similar construction, with some being brighter and others darker, some with stronger mids and others that are sweet hi-fi tubes. AFAIK, they all have seams in the top. You can even use the look of the seams to figure out who did (or didn't) make the tube even if its print is gone or it's been relabeled.
> 
> Other than the ubiquitous Raytheon black plate 12AX7 in V2, I run almost all Philips tubes in Marshall amps, at least in V1 and V4. Telefunken, RFT and Tungsram Hungary are some great tubes that aren't Philips manufacture but they are still in that same tonal range.
> 
> BTW, welcome to our addiction



Thanks for the info. I just hope the 2 Matsushita's and 2 RFT's I bought work. The sellers had good feedback and results for the tubes though. I'm also waiting on two RCA's, which I plan to put in a VHT Sig:X. After that, I need to sell some excess stuff I'm not using and get some KT88/6550 power tubes, then I'm golden.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan called me. He struck gold. He's found a whole bunch of tubes, maybe thousands. I'll let him tell you what he found, but he found three that go for about $150 each on EBAY. 

Way to go ALAN.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Alan called me. He struck gold. He's found a whole bunch of tubes, maybe thousands. I'll let him tell you what he found, but he found three that go for about $150 each on EBAY.
> 
> Way to go ALAN.



Holy carp batman! How the he...I mean what the he...thousands...!

SHIT!


----------



## MM54

Damn


----------



## MartyStrat54

He'll be on later. He is probably back over there again. The mother lode is just 15 miles from his house. He's getting a B and K 707 tester as well, but it needs some work. The old lady is giving him all this stuff for free.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> He'll be on later. He is probably back over there again. The mother lode is just 15 miles from his house. He's getting a B and K 707 tester as well, but it needs some work. The old lady is giving him all this stuff for free.



Unbelievable luck!

Wow. Just Wow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's almost like finding a 1960 Les Paul Gold Top and someone just gives it to you for free.

(Well sort of like this. A 1960 Les Paul GT would be really, really sweet.)


----------



## sccloser

So, I guess that means that since he is getting it for free, then he won't mind selling a few to us fellow forum members for sweet deals?


----------



## MM54

Calibrated my 707 after work today. It wasn't too off, but I'm glad I did it. I have all the stuff for a full cap job but I need to find time to do it (and then calibrate it again)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's almost like finding a 1960 Les Paul Gold Top and someone just gives it to you for free.
> 
> (Well sort of like this. A 1960 Les Paul GT would be really, really sweet.)



Yeah I agree! Like you said...the mother load!

A GT Les Paul...Mmm. Think I'm a sucker for black with gold trimmings hehe. Sunburst/tobacco is always kill too.

Alan is probably pissing himself over all that glass!


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope, just taking inventory and making pictures 

Yes, there were thousands of tubes. Unfortunately only 50 or so were useful. More to follow.


----------



## UncleTom

Hi preamp fanatics! 
Well I'm new to this forum and I must say that I love it 

Anyway I've been reading through this milion posts regarding preamp tubes but decided to ask shortly (probably) again...

I have TSL601. Bought used, amp started buzzing, then one tube died-really bad tube socket. All the sockets are renewed now and all the stock tubes replaced with JJs (EL34, V1 ECC83S - 12AX7S, 2X ECC83S - 12AX7S, 1 BALANCED ECC83S - 12AX7S in PI).
The tech set the bias for power tubes to 32mA. Should I set it to 40+ (I mean 85 with trim pot on the back)?

Amp is noisier than it was with the stock tubes, but also a lot louder. I assume - tech says it also that it might be because of amp runnig on full power now. Anyway the noise is not that noticable when playing and probably normal one tube amps - this is my first one. What do you think? Might it be JJ's fault?

The bigger issue is with the sound. I must say that CRUNCH and LEAD channel is better then with stock tubes but i don't like CLEAN channel so much anymore. Its harsher now and has VERY weak dynamics, weak harmonic overtones.. and not so good defined bass. 
Overdrive is a bit harsh too.
I thought about changing some of the preamp tubes, but am not really willing to go into NOS tubes testing adventure yet. 
What would you suggest me to do (which new tubes in which positions)?

I have one GT 12AX7-R (I think the same as *Sovtek* 12AX7WA) and if I put it in V2 I get much nicer clean and drive channels. The funny thing is that it's measured 60/60 although it's a new one? strange..

Since all the tubes are new now I wouldn't like to invest a lot, but JJ's alone sound really dull, a bit harsh and sterile to me.

Any suggestion will be much appreciated, also I would be especially glad if TSL owners suggested sth also.

Thanks,
Tomi


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Nope, just taking inventory and making pictures
> 
> Yes, there were thousands of tubes. Unfortunately only 50 or so were useful. More to follow.



50 is still a great haul man...if they work.LOL


----------



## MM54

Hell, I'd be happy with 950 oddball tubes as well as 50 useful ones 

Sounds like a great score man, can't wait to get the details

Edit: Hell, I'd be happy with 950 boxes, I really ought to box all these tubes I have laying in my drawers


----------



## Marshall Mann

Sweet Alan!!!!! It's like Christmas!!!! 

Let us know what you found!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the cream of the crop. I have a big tube caddy now full of stuff. I picked up a few 6146A's for one of my HAM friends. I got a bunch of 6CG7's, a single 6BQ5 and 6V6GT, 12AV7's, 12AT7's, 12AU7's, etc.... you get the picture. Someone had clearly been through these tubes before but they didn't move the old TV carcases out of the way - I got what they missed. I left most of it sitting there. I have no idea what 99% of them were even. Numbers I'd never heard of.

There is no way I'm posting a picture of the B&K 707 until it's been thoroughly cleaned and decontaminated. It sat open on the bench unused for 4 years. I'm hoping it's still a solid tester but I'm not expecting miracles.

The 3 Mullard EL34's - all NIB Xf2's
.










...and I got a nice surprise when I opened an ITT box that was penciled 6CA7:






Yup, it's an Xf2 as well 

Here's a trio of RCA 7591A's NIB. Some Ampeg owner will love to get these.






These 5881's will probably stay in my collection.






A couple of 6L6GC's






A nice collection of 12BZ7's






And last but not least, the 12AX7's - not as many as I'd have liked to find, but not bad either. Note the Tungsram on the left.






You want to hear the kicker? I got a call from another guy today who has some tubes he says he'll let me dig through maybe tomorrow. I also met a guy who runs a barbecue stand today who's a HAM operator and says he has boxes of tubes he's never even gone through. I'm saving that one for Saturday.


----------



## MM54

Buy me a lottery ticket sometime soon, I'll reimburse you after it hits :eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for posting all this up so fast. Man you are on a massive roll. You got your hands on some sweet glass.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wouldn't it be nice if all four Mullards match up, or is that asking too much?


----------



## solarburn

The XF2's would make me happy to have found!

I'm just laughing at your luck lately. Very cool!

And more to come...


----------



## Marshall Mann

Cool Alan!!

What are you planning to do with the 12BZ7's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Sell them probably. I've been down that road before. They can make a Marshall sound mean and gritty, but at the cost of the cleans.


----------



## MM54

Are the 12BZ7's the super-gainy ones, or the lopsided ones? I don't remember which is which sometimes 

Something makes me think I have a 12BZ7 or two laying around I forgot about.


----------



## solarburn

I hope you come up with some more good ones from those other guys. Hell it could pay for another amp these days.


----------



## RiverRatt

UncleTom said:


> Hi preamp fanatics!
> Well I'm new to this forum and I must say that I love it
> 
> Anyway I've been reading through this milion posts regarding preamp tubes but decided to ask shortly (probably) again...
> 
> I have TSL601. Bought used, amp started buzzing, then one tube died-really bad tube socket. All the sockets are renewed now and all the stock tubes replaced with JJs (EL34, V1 ECC83S - 12AX7S, 2X ECC83S - 12AX7S, 1 BALANCED ECC83S - 12AX7S in PI).
> The tech set the bias for power tubes to 32mA. Should I set it to 40+ (I mean 85 with trim pot on the back)?
> 
> Amp is noisier than it was with the stock tubes, but also a lot louder. I assume - tech says it also that it might be because of amp runnig on full power now. Anyway the noise is not that noticable when playing and probably normal one tube amps - this is my first one. What do you think? Might it be JJ's fault?
> 
> The bigger issue is with the sound. I must say that CRUNCH and LEAD channel is better then with stock tubes but i don't like CLEAN channel so much anymore. Its harsher now and has VERY weak dynamics, weak harmonic overtones.. and not so good defined bass.
> Overdrive is a bit harsh too.
> I thought about changing some of the preamp tubes, but am not really willing to go into NOS tubes testing adventure yet.
> What would you suggest me to do (which new tubes in which positions)?
> 
> I have one GT 12AX7-R (I think the same as *Sovtek* 12AX7WA) and if I put it in V2 I get much nicer clean and drive channels. The funny thing is that it's measured 60/60 although it's a new one? strange..
> 
> Since all the tubes are new now I wouldn't like to invest a lot, but JJ's alone sound really dull, a bit harsh and sterile to me.
> 
> Any suggestion will be much appreciated, also I would be especially glad if TSL owners suggested sth also.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tomi



Welcome aboard, Tomi. That bias voltage sounds really, really low. I wouldn't be surprised if you're not getting some nasty crossover distortion. Your comments about the tone you're getting back that up, too. I'd suggest you take the amp to a tech who knows how to check the plate voltage and bias that thing somewhere around 65% of max dissipation. This would translate to around 80-85mV on your TSL so yeah, you could PROBABLY be safe doing this yourself without checking the plate since you're not going too hot. Watch the tubes closely for awhile and make sure they aren't red-plating. It's better to be safe than sorry, though. This isn't the right way to bias the amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Are the 12BZ7's the super-gainy ones, or the lopsided ones? I don't remember which is which sometimes
> 
> Something makes me think I have a 12BZ7 or two laying around I forgot about.



Same gain as a 12AX7 but with half the impedance IIRC.


----------



## UncleTom

RiverRatt said:


> Welcome aboard, Tomi. That bias voltage sounds really, really low. I wouldn't be surprised if you're not getting some nasty crossover distortion. Your comments about the tone you're getting back that up, too. I'd suggest you take the amp to a tech who knows how to check the plate voltage and bias that thing somewhere around 65% of max dissipation. This would translate to around 80-85mV on your TSL so yeah, you could PROBABLY be safe doing this yourself without checking the plate since you're not going too hot. Watch the tubes closely for awhile and make sure they aren't red-plating. It's better to be safe than sorry, though. This isn't the right way to bias the amp.


 
Thanks for the welcome RR.
Its 32mA per tube, but its still then around 65 in total. The guy that did that is quite respected in that area here so I figured he knew what he was doing  I didn't get hold of a VMeter yet. Will read the voltage first and if it will be around 65 will try setting it to 85. It's quite easy on this amp...

Could to low bias be the culprit for "DULL" sound?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Same gain as a 12AX7 but with half the impedance IIRC.



Okay, I thought so. I may give one a shot sometime if it turns out I do have a few laying in the bin I think I do. They have a much lower plate resistance than a 12AX7 if I recall correctly.


----------



## sccloser

How do I get into this game? I find like 1 tube here and one tube there.
Congrats RiverRatt on the score(s),


----------



## RiverRatt

Make friends with the local HAM guys in your area, sccloser. They usually have boxes of tubes and the guys I've met have been very generous and friendly. They also as a general rule don't have much use for audio preamp tubes unless they are into radios too. I also seek out TV repair shops that have been out of business for awhile. You'd think they'd have been picked clean by now, but that's obviously not the case 

It took me several years to get in with the right crowd. Once they see that you are a decent guy even if you are putting their tubes in guitar amps, they'll open up and even give you more contacts. Most of them are gearheads same as us and love to talk to other tube nuts.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Okay, I thought so. I may give one a shot sometime if it turns out I do have a few laying in the bin I think I do. They have a much lower plate resistance than a 12AX7 if I recall correctly.



I've noticed, and I think Marty's commented on it too, that Marshalls tend to use these tubes up quick. I had a NOS RCA that I used literally for maybe 3 hours and it tested around 75% after I'd used it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, do 2 of those Xf2s match up?


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Are the 12BZ7's the super-gainy ones, or the lopsided ones? I don't remember which is which sometimes
> 
> Something makes me think I have a 12BZ7 or two laying around I forgot about.



The 12BZ7 has a gain factor of 100, but half the plate resistance of a 12AX7. The lopsided tube is a 12DW7 and it has a gain of 100 on Triode A and a gain of 17 to 20 on Triode B.

Several years ago, when it was just the four of us, we took a look at the 12BZ7. Josh was the most interested. I ended up sending him 3 NOS tubes and his amp ate all three of them after a few days. He ended up buying a beautiful 1957 NOS Sylvania and it got ate up as well. 

In V1 they tend to be noisy and microphonic as they have very long plates compared to a 12AX7. The tubes look like short EL84's. They may cause unwanted squeals out of the amp. Your clean channel is shit.

In V2 they are a little better, but the overall tone of the amp does not warrant using a 12BZ7.

I was told that a 12BZ7 was a direct replacement for a 12AX7. According to NJ7P, this is the case. However, if you look up the preferred substitutes or substitutes for the 12AX7, a 12BZ7 is not listed. Bottom line, the 12BZ7's did not last in the high gain amps. We did not try them in a JMP or JCM. 

I do not recommend them in any high gain Marshall amp. If someone wants to try them in a JMP or 800 (2203/2204) and review it, go right ahead. Reviews are always welcomed.


----------



## guitargoalie

hey guys i've got a dsl50 coming in and idk what tubes are in it currently. I can't afford any new power tubes atm, but i do have a tungsol 12ax7, an electro harmonix and 2 china 12ax7 b's. What are the best places to put these preamp tubes


----------



## BluesRocker

V1- Tungsol
V2 EH
V3 china
V4 china


----------



## MartyStrat54

UncleTom said:


> Hi preamp fanatics!
> Well I'm new to this forum and I must say that I love it
> 
> Anyway I've been reading through this milion posts regarding preamp tubes but decided to ask shortly (probably) again...
> 
> I have TSL601.
> Thanks,
> Tomi



Welcome TOMI. I have a TSL 602 so we both have the same amp. For starters, you need to check what the "loaded" plate voltage is. These amps are squeezing 30 watts per tube out of the EL34's and the plate voltage should be over 500VDC. I run my amp a little above 65 per cent dissipation.

I will have to argue a point with you. You state that you are not yet willing to go with NOS tubes. Let me tell you this. You can get a really decent GE or RCA for around $20. This is not a European tube, but it is better than current production stuff. Buy yourself a couple of GE's and run them in V1 and V2. Then you can use CP tubes in V3 and V4.

Of course I have all NOS in my amp and Mullard xf3's in the power section. I took out the Wolverine speakers and replaced them with JBL D123's. I bought this amp from the "Scratch and Dent" section of the Musician's Friend in Kansas City. I think I paid $375 for it. All it needed was new tubes and a new grille. I saved over a grand on this deal. Now that it is fixed up, it is worth a lot of money. I think I could get $1200 for it if I found the right buyer. The speakers are a $350 upgrade.

So don't sell yourself short. Get a couple of used vintage tubes and your tone will get better than running those JJ's.

Here is my 602. The grille is made of cane cloth.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Alan, do 2 of those Xf2s match up?



I'm hoping that all four of 'em do! 

If I can get my tester going and get it calibrated I'll know soon enough. There's a HAM friend of mine nearby who has a B&K 747 that was recently calibrated and serviced. I may run them over to him this weekend and see if he'll test them for me. He's older and his health isn't great and he's not very active with this oppressive heat and humidity we've got around here.

I gave the B&K a scrubbing with the washcloth and got a good bit of the grime off. Some of it I think is permanent. I still need to get a can of Deoxit and go to work on the sockets with some pipe cleaners. I'm going to get it as clean as I possibly can before I power it up. If it works, hopefully I'll be able to seriously test some tubes soon. I said I wouldn't, but here's a pic of it after I scrubbed it for about 30 minutes.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well... If all four dont... and two of them do.. Umm... I would like them lol


----------



## guitargoalie

thx bluesrocker, is the v1 leftmost? on the dsl50?


----------



## RiverRatt

guitargoalie said:


> hey guys i've got a dsl50 coming in and idk what tubes are in it currently. I can't afford any new power tubes atm, but i do have a tungsol 12ax7, an electro harmonix and 2 china 12ax7 b's. What are the best places to put these preamp tubes



I like the Chinese tubes for V1 and V2, but some others will pick the Tung-Sol reissue. I found them a little flat for my tastes. Use the EH in V3 or V4. They suck as tone tubes. 

You really should consider new power tubes in a used amp unless the seller can verify that they are new and/or tested good. The main reasons behind bad new amp experiences are either bad tubes or the bias is off. You can get a pair of GTEL34M's for $36.95 from GC and they are my all-time favorite current production EL34. Bias them up at around 36-38mV and they will give up the goods.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Well... If all four dont... and two of them do.. Umm... I would like them lol



How bad do you want them?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty or Matt, is that missing piece above the right corner of the meter a pin-straightener? It doesn't look like it does anything critical.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> How bad do you want them?



Well.. If I get this 2204... Really bad


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, these tubes are going to turn into a car payment. I'd love to do some trading and dealing on them, but I need to raise some cash. If I can match up a pair, I'll give you first shot at them definitely.


----------



## MartyStrat54

guitargoalie said:


> thx bluesrocker, is the v1 leftmost? on the dsl50?



It should have a metal cover on it. You twist it to make it come off. V1 is the farthest away from your power tubes.

V1-Primary Gain
V2-Secondary Gain
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Well.. If I get this 2204... Really bad



NOS/NIB Xf2's "matched" bring around $150 per tube. This is for double getter Xf2's. I think Alan's are the single halo getter Xf2's. Regardless, very desirable.

Key word:matched.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Marty or Matt, is that missing piece above the right corner of the meter a pin-straightener? It doesn't look like it does anything critical.



Yeah that's the nine pin straightener that's missing.

Boy that's an old one. I'll bet if you take the top off the face plate is made of copper. This is even older than the old one I had. This one does not have the two test lights that would be located to the right of the push buttons.

Looking at it, I fear it will have some worn out sockets. If #8 socket is bad (12--7 slot), you can put a socket saver in it and be good to go.

I've never seen one with the face so worn. Oh well, you got it for a good price. If you can get it up and running, it will be better than that Hickok.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm hoping against hope that it'll be close to good when I fire it up for the first time. I built a guitar amp and I wasn't as nervous about applying AC to it as I am this tester. I've already got like 4 boat anchors. I hope this one doesn't turn out to be another. What's up with that weird socket in the bottom left corner that's screwed on to the panel?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Tubes are like oil. The prices vary from day to day. I just check out 23 listings for Mullard EL34's. The price right now has gone down. You can get a matched pair of Xf1's for $200. Singles are going for $70 to +$100. NIB matched quad of Xf3's for $263.69.


----------



## RiverRatt

What I need to make a picture of is the tube caddy I got. It's got the Sylvania logo on it and revolutionary war-themed pictures all over it. Weirdsville.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. Tubes are like oil. The prices vary from day to day. I just check out 23 listings for Mullard EL34's. The price right now has gone down. You can get a matched pair of Xf1's for $200. Singles are going for $70 to +$100. NIB matched quad of Xf3's for $263.69.



Damn. I find THE Mullard EL34's to have and the prices are down. I hate this fuckin' economy. I took a $200 hit on my DSL just to move it. Hopefully the four will be pretty closely matched and I can sell them as a quad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'm hoping against hope that it'll be close to good when I fire it up for the first time. I built a guitar amp and I wasn't as nervous about applying AC to it as I am this tester. I've already got like 4 boat anchors. I hope this one doesn't turn out to be another. What's up with that weird socket in the bottom left corner that's screwed on to the panel?



Well you will want to look under the hood. As I said, my old 707 had a hand etched #83 rec tube in it. I sold it to a guy in Hong Kong. The other tube is a 6BN8. You will want to put a fresh one in when you can. Maybe Matt has a good one on hand. I don't think I do. I just remember buying a NOS RCA for mine. If I find one, I'll mail it to you. I switched over to a solid state rectifier. Cooler and more stable.

Once under the hood, you can check for leaking caps.

The weird socket is normal. That's how all of them look. As I said, that is the row of "emission only" test sockets. The row of numbered knobs pertain only to these sockets.

Do you have the "whip?" That is the wire that goes into the top panel for power to metal tipped tubes. Also, do you have a test manual for setting up the tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

The manual is in bad shape. I think the important parts are still there - I haven't had time to go over it well. Plus, there was a model 700 and 465 chart in the case with it, too.

Yeah, the "whip" is there. I moved it while I was cleaning it. There's also a NOVAR A and NOVAR B adapter as well as a 7 and 9-pin straightener with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Additional info: I just found out that selector D seems to be frozen. I powered the tester up and socket 8 does seem to be bad. I can't even get the cathodes to light up. A 6V6 does light up but I didn't do any tests on it with that one control frozen.


----------



## UncleTom

MartyStrat54 said:


> Welcome TOMI. I have a TSL 602 so we both have the same amp. For starters, you need to check what the "loaded" plate voltage is. These amps are squeezing 30 watts per tube out of the EL34's and the plate voltage should be over 500VDC. I run my amp a little above 65 per cent dissipation.
> 
> I will have to argue a point with you. You state that you are not yet willing to go with NOS tubes. Let me tell you this. You can get a really decent GE or RCA for around $20. This is not a European tube, but it is better than current production stuff. Buy yourself a couple of GE's and run them in V1 and V2. Then you can use CP tubes in V3 and V4.
> 
> Of course I have all NOS in my amp and Mullard xf3's in the power section. I took out the Wolverine speakers and replaced them with JBL D123's. I bought this amp from the "Scratch and Dent" section of the Musician's Friend in Kansas City. I think I paid $375 for it. All it needed was new tubes and a new grille. I saved over a grand on this deal. Now that it is fixed up, it is worth a lot of money. I think I could get $1200 for it if I found the right buyer. The speakers are a $350 upgrade.
> 
> So don't sell yourself short. Get a couple of used vintage tubes and your tone will get better than running those JJ's.
> 
> Here is my 602. The grille is made of cane cloth.


 
Hey Marty,

Nice makeover on TSL602 
Haha I expected to be encouraged to enter the NOS world. Ok, I will try to get a pair of tubes you suggestet and leave JJ's in V3 and V4 for starters. 

As for the loaded plate voltage..I'm pretty sure the tech guy has checked everything as should and set the bias accordingly. Has many reasons to do so...
The tubes have stickers from amplitrex tube analyser that show the following:
Type: EL34-500; UP: 500; UG2: 450; -UG1: 38.5; FixBias spec iA: 50 iG2: 8 uMhos: 7500 (#1 iA: 31.5 iG2: 4.3 uMhos: 5590 #2 blank on tube 1 and #1 iA: 31.6 iG2: 4.3 uMhos: 5630 #2 blank on tube 2)
Does that say sth to you? I guess that accordingly to those specs he set 32 mA on every tube..?


----------



## sparke2k

hi,
this i a totally subjective subject. but i love a marshall classic rock sound.
FREE, Humble Pie, Mountain, Badco etc..........
i've spent time(and money) A/B ing preamp tubes.
and i know how expensive they are today! it's ridiculous!!
But I've Found (for me!!) Brimar & telefunken Tubes give me what
i like. Chinese tubes are too brittle 
some russian sound o.k.
but nos or used british or american (rca,ge,etc...) 
I would rather have used brimar than a new modern tube
no comparison!! you hit a power chord and the bloom of the harmonics
creeps up on you......makes me grin like a monkey
thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in
later..........steve


----------



## MartyStrat54

STEVE-I hear you. If you try a bunch of CP and NOS tubes, most people will want the sound that a NOS tube will give them.

BTW-Brimars are sweet.


----------



## RiverRatt

sparke2k said:


> makes me grin like a monkey
> thanks for letting me put my 2 cents in
> later..........steve





Cork sniffing can be a very rewarding experience  

You ever just play an A chord and hold it until it decays completely? I swear you can play a two-finger power chord with a Telefunken and hear ALL the even-order harmonics in that chord as it decays. Yeah, the audience may not hear that, blah, blah, but it sure as hell makes me feel good! 

I'm itching to get that Tungsram in the Vintage Modern and see what it does. I had four of the things and foolishly sold them. This is the first chance I've had to try one in a long time.


----------



## BluesRocker

Got an email from Joey today!!!!!!!! Next 2 days it will be finished!!!! 

He is taking extra time to make sure that the Power Scaling doesnt blow up my amp..

His words in his email:
"It's the prettiest looking Marshall inside I have seen"

Cant wait.. lol


----------



## RiverRatt

Update on the B&K 707 - the D control now works as it should and it seems to test my octal power tubes with surprising accuracy! It looks like a dog's ass, but I think it's going to be a solid tester. I'm going to try to re-tension the #8 nine-pin socket and see if I can get it working. I've got some newer sockets I can install if I have to or maybe get one of those socket savers that Marty was talking about.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Got an email from Joey today!!!!!!!! Next 2 days it will be finished!!!!
> 
> He is taking extra time to make sure that the Power Scaling doesnt blow up my amp..
> 
> His words in his email:
> "It's the prettiest looking Marshall inside I have seen"
> 
> Cant wait.. lol



This is the 1959HW? I can barely keep track of what I'm doing, much less everybody else.


----------



## BluesRocker

No.. 

I will spill the beans.. 

Started out as a 2003 or 5 cant remember 1959SLP Reissue.. 

I am having him strip everything out of it and rewire a PTP '68 Spec board.

On top of that he is taking out the effects loop and adding mods in replace of the holes.
Mods are:
1. Power Scaling (Run amp from .1 watt to 100 watts)
2. Mid Boost switch that has 3 modes. Full Mid, Low-Mid, and off
3. Joey Custom Voicing Mods with 2 modes. Mod 1, Mod 2, and off
4. Plexi Face/Metal Face mod. Switch between the 2 eras of SL's

The inputs are also being modded. 
Input 1 (top left) is stock
Input 2 (top Right) is stock
Input 3 (bottom left) is 1 and 2 jumpered
Input 4 (bottom right) is Input 1 cascaded (One wire mod/ Randy Rhoads Mod)


----------



## RiverRatt

That sounds like a cool amp! Can't wait for some soundclips. Now I know why you're trying to get my Xf2's!


----------



## BluesRocker

No I wont be able to use the XF2s in the SLP...It is a 100 watt... Im lookinf to trade my 6100 for a 2204


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I DO have four of them...... just sayin'.


----------



## BluesRocker

I doubt I would be able to afford 4 of them..

<<< Broke College Student..


----------



## MartyStrat54

CODY-Did Joey reuse any of the components that came in the amp? I ask, because if Joey gutted it all out and did all of these mods, would you have been better off just buying a chassis and a head box and then let Joey build you an amp? Surely he used all of the transformers.

I didn't know you were going to have all of these mods done. I hope it sounds groovy to your ears.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, he kept everything above the chassis.. Just the board was replaced and rewired.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> No..
> 
> I will spill the beans..
> 
> Started out as a 2003 or 5 cant remember 1959SLP Reissue..
> 
> I am having him strip everything out of it and rewire a PTP '68 Spec board.
> 
> On top of that he is taking out the effects loop and adding mods in replace of the holes.
> Mods are:
> 1. Power Scaling (Run amp from .1 watt to 100 watts)
> 2. Mid Boost switch that has 3 modes. Full Mid, Low-Mid, and off
> 3. Joey Custom Voicing Mods with 2 modes. Mod 1, Mod 2, and off
> 4. Plexi Face/Metal Face mod. Switch between the 2 eras of SL's
> 
> The inputs are also being modded.
> Input 1 (top left) is stock
> Input 2 (top Right) is stock
> Input 3 (bottom left) is 1 and 2 jumpered
> Input 4 (bottom right) is Input 1 cascaded (One wire mod/ Randy Rhoads Mod)



Gat damn man! Look forward to hearing this one. Very cool mods. Hope it sounds as good as Joey's work looks!


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I cant wait either.. I am just counting down the days...


----------



## sccloser

I scored some toobs today.

I got 2 JAN Philips 6189W manufactured in 9/87. 12au7's I believe. How much are they worth and does anybody want to trade me some 12ax7's for them?


----------



## sccloser

Oops..see my post in power amp tubes.


----------



## chuckharmonjr

Sorry about taking so long to get back to you Alan. The Northern 7025 wasnt too bad..kinda liked it...but it wasnt nearly as creamy smooth as my 2 GE NOS 7025's. Still wasnt half bad tho.


----------



## MM54

I've decided socket #8 on my 707 is pretty much shot, It's still tight but something is making it not give consistent readings (depending how far you put the tube in the socket, the readings go up and down). I really don't want to have to go in and desolder it and drill out the rivets to replace it, but at this point that (or a socket saver perhaps? can you put those in worn sockets past saving ?) seems about the only option. I've spent quite a while trying to clean it to no avail.

On a side note I've finally gotten my Switch section fully functional again (damn switches) and tested out several tubes I lacked the data for on my Jackson. Of course, the Novar socket is as the loosest socket I've ever seen... you can literally set the tube the whole way down into it. I think one may go on my shopping list as well as a few other things  Really don't like the idea of trying to replace the sockets in this thing.

I was in the cabinet with my vintagey tubes at some point today, and it reminded me I mean to show them to you guys sometime


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, I re-tensioned the sockets on mine and it stabilized a lot. I got a little precision screwdriver (standard tip) and worked the blade in between the plastic and the clip and just pushed it together a little. You don't want to close them completely but you want to narrow the opening enough that it grips the tube pins securely. I've done this on amps before and it seems to have worked equally well on the tester. My #8 socket is now reading consistently. You really don't have anything to lose. Once you get the sockets gripping the pins firmly, use some contact cleaner and work the tube in and out of the socket a few times and it'll be just right.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I scored some toobs today.
> 
> I got 2 JAN Philips 6189W manufactured in 9/87. 12au7's I believe. How much are they worth and does anybody want to trade me some 12ax7's for them?



I tried to sell a lot of 8 NOS NIB military 6189/12AU7's on eBay with a starting bid of $15. Didn't even get a watcher. They aren't worth much at all. Hang on to them and build a Firefly tube amp with them some day.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MATT-A 9-Pin Socket Saver might do the trick. They are cheap, so if it doesn't work, you're not out a lot of cash.

Of course the NOVAR is a different story. You will have to replace that.

I'm lucky. This last 707 I bought was gently used. Everything is in good condition. I've only had to test one NOVAR and that was for Alan. It was a bad tube and I thought it had damaged my tester. That's the reason why I sent it in for calibration. 

I think I will just stick to testing audio tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, I re-tensioned the sockets on mine and it stabilized a lot. I got a little precision screwdriver (standard tip) and worked the blade in between the plastic and the clip and just pushed it together a little. You don't want to close them completely but you want to narrow the opening enough that it grips the tube pins securely. I've done this on amps before and it seems to have worked equally well on the tester. My #8 socket is now reading consistently. You really don't have anything to lose. Once you get the sockets gripping the pins firmly, use some contact cleaner and work the tube in and out of the socket a few times and it'll be just right.



Cool, that's on my list of things to try, I had a brain fart earlier and couldn't remember how to do it while I was standing over it frustrated with the inaccuracy (and rather tired from cleaning every socket (except the nuvistor one... doubt I'll ever use that one) on the damn thing 



MartyStrat54 said:


> MATT-A 9-Pin Socket Saver might do the trick. They are cheap, so if it doesn't work, you're not out a lot of cash.
> 
> Of course the NOVAR is a different story. You will have to replace that.
> 
> I'm lucky. This last 707 I bought was gently used. Everything is in good condition. I've only had to test one NOVAR and that was for Alan. It was a bad tube and I thought it had damaged my tester. That's the reason why I sent it in for calibration.
> 
> I think I will just stick to testing audio tubes.



I have a 7868 I'd like to test, that's it in the realm of Novar (I think... I have a bunch of tubes in boxes I've never even seen) for now. I can tell mine was well used, but also well maintained. It looks like the caps had been replaced once before, and the sockets are well used but the panel is very clean.

And why just test audio tubes ? There's such a fun realm out there of weird tubes and fun ones to have and hold. And test. I do like my tubes.


On another side note, I'd really like to build a poweramp sometime with these 1625's I have, they're really awesome looking tubes, I bet they light up nicely


----------



## MM54

So, as I mentioned, here is my modest collection of what I'd consider "Vintagey" tubes. I consider a tube as such if it's old, big, and preferably has an engraved base. I especially like ones from companies that don't exist, and cool names (like 'Arcturus' ).

Here's a family shot (The RCA boxes are just being used as a backdrop, and later on to keep tubes from rolling around)





Closeups! Tubes are as labeled:

Pair of RCA 1625's, I like the brown bases:





Here's a Sylvania #80:





And a Tung-Sol... something. There's no indication what type it is.





This one's interesting, it's labeled RCA Radiotron AND Cunningham.





This is a nice Cunningham C-324





Here's an Arcturus (What a great name) #45:





And finally, my favorites, a pair of DeForest Audion 427's 






Thanks for putting up with me and letting me share


----------



## RiverRatt

I know where there's a junk box of old 4-pin tubes. You'd go crazy in there! I have an old Zenith radio out in the garage that's all old 4-pin tubes. If you're ever down this way, you're welcome to stop by and pick it up.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys

rough night for me so far.. Gonna get even longer... First I had band practice and dropped my LP, breaking a tuning peg.. Got a gig tomorrow night and I hardly know any of the songs.. Since I have only had like a practice and a half with the band.. The gave me a cd of theirs that is live to work on.. But it doesnt have all the tunes that my setlist has... So I am gonna have to wing it on a few tunes.. The other ones I am trying to get the parts I dont know by ear and I am not good at that.. Sigh...


----------



## RiverRatt

It's all rock-n-roll, man. Are you playing lead or rhythm? 

That sucks about the Les Paul. Glad it was something easily fixable.


----------



## BluesRocker

Actually is a Christian band.. Lots of chord changes.. But luckily most all the songs are in G or C..

I am playing lead..


----------



## sccloser

Well, a lead player can fake his way through a song easier than a rhythm player. Rhythm player has to know the song. Lead player just needs to know the key (or the box) to play in and when to start and stop!


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't know anything about Christian rock. Back when I was a kid the Christians called anything like that Devil Music. Christian music was a bunch of guys in ugly blue suits with big hair singing 4-part gospel harmony over a 1-4-5 bass line. I dug the bass players.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well, heres the trick... There are 3 guitar players in the group.. Me, the group leader, and a kid who is pretty good.. He can play fast and that it.. He doesnt know changes and scales that well.. He told me today when I brought the Marshall that I was his hero..lol

Anyways.. The kid has a hard time catching on.. The leader knows everything.. So.. What I do, is just play the single chord.. and let it ring til the next change.. then do my leads.. yeah its cheesy and shitty.. But for now its what I have to do


----------



## MartyStrat54

How did you drop the PAUL? Are you using strap locks, or were you taking off or putting on the guitar?

Either way, damn shame. Now I know why guys get paranoid playing their $$$ Les Pauls at a live gig.


----------



## BluesRocker

No Alan, this group is nothing like that... We play actual cover tunes from rock music..But they change the keys.. We actually do a cover of smoke on the water, purple rain, sweet child of mine, knockin on heavens door, folsom prison blues.. etc


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> How did you drop the PAUL? Are you using strap locks, or were you taking off or putting on the guitar?
> 
> Either way, damn shame. Now I know why guys get paranoid playing their $$$ Les Pauls at a live gig.



It fell of the strap lock some how


I have locks on all my guitars, cause when I got my first Gibson Les Paul, I dropped it on concrete.. Bought strap locks 3 hours later


----------



## sccloser

I can play the lead for Smoke on the Water for you if you need me...I kinda know the key parts of it and I fake the rest and everyone seems to think it is good (but I know better). 
Do they change the lyrics?


----------



## sccloser

BluesRocker said:


> It fell of the strap lock some how
> 
> 
> I have locks on all my guitars, cause when I got my first Gibson Les Paul, I dropped it on concrete.. Bought strap locks 3 hours later



Schallers?


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah they changed the lyrics.. All the lead parts, I just improvise.. I dont think we are playing that one tomorrow.. They play it out of E


Yeah they are Schallers


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the Dunlop locks better than Schallers. The Dunlops seem to let the guitar move more freely and the buttons are still functional strap buttons without the locks.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah they changed the lyrics.. All the lead parts, I just improvise.. I dont think we are playing that one tomorrow.. They play it out of E
> 
> 
> Yeah they are Schallers



Smoke on the Water in E????


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, I have a set of dunlops.. The best I have used are called something like Hennesy or something like that.. They are pretty sweet.. That set is on my Lace (which will be my backup guitar tomorrow) Yes I am still taking the LP to the gig as my main.. Just tune it up with plyers


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Smoke on the Water in E????



Yeah.. Thats what I said.. It is crazy.. I guess it is easier on them that way.. I dunno..I just play along.. lol


----------



## sccloser

I like the schallers...never had a problem with them.
I play Smoke... in G, actually G flat cause I tune down 1/2 step. E seems weird to me...


----------



## SpacedOutAce

Before I install my NOS tubes that are coming in, is there anything I should do like clean the pins while I change em or..? I'm thinking I'll need some Deoxit but wanna ask first before I buy the stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Alan, do 2 of those Xf2s match up?



All four of them match. I got a fairly solid reading of 94, 94, 93 and 93 on them. I'll have to sell them as a quad. This is a car payment we're talking here.


----------



## MM54

NICE


----------



## solarburn

Awesome Alan. Just what you needed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are they all single getter xf2's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, they are single-getters. When I got finished calibrating, replacing caps and getting those f'in bulbs secured I popped in my known 6L6 and it was right on the money. Marty, we need to talk calibration service sometime. I'd still feel better having it gone over by a pro.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn, them 707's are getting to be a popular flavor over here. Right on! Joe, when are you going to get yours?

ALAN-What all have you already done? Replaced caps? Replaced 6BN8? What else?

Sounds like it is reading pretty darn close.


----------



## RiverRatt

I replaced all the electrolytics, lubed the pots and switches, used about a can of compressed air, and about 1.5 cans of contact cleaner. The 6BN8 in it appears to be fine. There was even a spare in the bottom of the case when I pulled the panel! I checked all the voltages and adjusted them to spec. I didn't replace any resistors. The lamps are the hardest part to get right. They'll make readings jump all over the place. I haven't soldered the lamps in place yet. There's one more thing I want to try but I'm not going to mention it until I see if it works or I fry the tester 

I'll tell you one thing I've learned - I can't test a tube on it accurately for 10 or 15 minutes. Strangely, it tests way high until it gets warmed up good. With the bulbs snug and the new electrolytic cap on the meter it's really steady. I'm pissed about one thing - the needle curves slightly to the left. It's not that big of a deal though.

I've spent the whole weekend getting that thing running right but it was worth it. I'm going to have to take a break and try that Tungsram in the VM. If the tester is close it should be a high-gain tube.


----------



## MM54

Hey Alan, 






Good thing you sent two, I checked them out, and the Sylvania tested at a whopping 25  The RCA is still reading a perfect 100 though, so I should be able to give it a shot tonight and let you know how it goes 

One thing about those G-bottle tubes, you know when they're well-used since they have so much horizontal surface to catch all kinds of dirt 

(The careful observer will note the panel screws are out of my 707 - I haven't put them back in yet since I went inside to fix the selectors in the Switch section )

Edit/Update: Put the Sylvania in as a sort of 'sacrificial lamb' to make sure they wouldn't just pop under the HT, and it went smoothly, I let it run for a while and nothing bad happened. I'm letting it cool down a bit to pull out then I'll pop in the RCA and see how the tone is 

Second Edit/Update: Nice! It's like a 6L6 with less headroom and I feel a bit more compressed with it. I didn't have long to play around, but it's running great, sounds pretty good, and is slightly louder than the RFT EL34 I had in there before. It also gets very very hot, but isn't dying, hissing, buzzing, or redplating or anything


----------



## kenigv

I am running a JCM 2000 DSL 100. I bought it used and wasn't 100% satisfied with the tone, I put Gold Series Groove Tube 12AX7-C (Chinese) tubes in all 4 preamp spots and it made a big difference in tone. The Crunch and Lead 1 Channel sound greatly improved, but Clean sounds sucked out and tinny-er and Lead 2 sounds flubby.

When I took out the original Marshall preamp tubes they were all different tubes. I don't know if this was how they came from the factory because I'm the 2nd owner.

Any comments on what the different V1-V4 slots do, and tube recommendations? I like the vintage Hendrix crunch, and warmer classic rock crunchy tone, play through an American Strat with Noiseless pickups... Use Celestion Vintage 30 speakers

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry about the Sylvania - I don't think I even put those in an emissions tester. I can't remember where I got those but they were in a big box of old tubes. If it's something you might want to use as an option, I know I have at least 3 more that test high and maybe a couple more I haven't tested. I'll look around and see what's here. I might even have some options you haven't thought of. 

If you want to build an adapter, those 7591A's that I have are supposed to sound like a 6V6 with an attitude - they are only a 19 watt tube but they can handle 550v on the plates. I was reading about someone getting 65 watts out of a pair in a push-pull amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

kenigv said:


> I am running a JCM 2000 DSL 100. I bought it used and wasn't 100% satisfied with the tone, I put Gold Series Groove Tube 12AX7-C (Chinese) tubes in all 4 preamp spots and it made a big difference in tone. The Crunch and Lead 1 Channel sound greatly improved, but Clean sounds sucked out and tinny-er and Lead 2 sounds flubby.
> 
> When I took out the original Marshall preamp tubes they were all different tubes. I don't know if this was how they came from the factory because I'm the 2nd owner.
> 
> Any comments on what the different V1-V4 slots do, and tube recommendations? I like the vintage Hendrix crunch, and warmer classic rock crunchy tone, play through an American Strat with Noiseless pickups...
> 
> Thanks



Those Chinese 12AX7's can be aggressive tubes. You might want to spend a few bucks and get a pair of NOS tubes for V1 and V2. A medium gain Philips tube like a Mullard or similar for V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 would go a long way toward getting that tone you're talking about.

More importantly, thin highs and flubby lows could likely be the EL34's. You might want to at least re-bias them and see if that improves your tone. If the amp still sounds like crap, it may be time for new ones. You can get the GT EL34M's for around $40 a pair and they sound the closest to NOS of any of the current production tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry about the Sylvania - I don't think I even put those in an emissions tester. I can't remember where I got those but they were in a big box of old tubes. If it's something you might want to use as an option, I know I have at least 3 more that test high and maybe a couple more I haven't tested. I'll look around and see what's here. I might even have some options you haven't thought of.
> 
> If you want to build an adapter, those 7591A's that I have are supposed to sound like a 6V6 with an attitude - they are only a 19 watt tube but they can handle 550v on the plates. I was reading about someone getting 65 watts out of a pair in a push-pull amp.



No worries, I'm just glad the RCA tested good (I did the Sylvania first and was worried the might both be toast) and is performing well. I don't think I'm going to move on the 7591's simply because I'm leaving for college in... 17 days now, and I can't really start any more projects before then


----------



## RiverRatt

I found two 6F6G's that both were bad for shorts, and a 6Y6G that tested at around 58. I chucked them. I have 3 more of those 6L6G's that test from around 85-95. Got a bunch of 6V6's, but who doesn't?

You wouldn't happen to have a #83 that would make a decent spare for the 707, would ya?

I got a sleeve of these little pentodes - I have no idea what to do with them. They are E180F/6688 gold pins made in Holland. They look just like these:

4 NOS Amperex E180F/6688 Tubes (Holland Goldpins) | eBay

I also grabbed a caddy full of odd-numbered tubes today at the tube lady's house. That's where the E180F sleeve came from. I was going through them and found an Amperex Holland ECC83. It sounds good in the VM!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I found two 6F6G's that both were bad for shorts, and a 6Y6G that tested at around 58. I chucked them. I have 3 more of those 6L6G's that test from around 85-95. Got a bunch of 6V6's, but who doesn't?
> 
> You wouldn't happen to have a #83 that would make a decent spare for the 707, would ya?



I had a lot of 12 6GH8's or something like that that all but 2 were shorted 

I haven't tried 6V6's in the CA10 yet... I have a bunch (like you said, who doesn't?) I may throw one in sometime and see how it goes.

I'll double check tomorrow if I'm down in the tube storage place... thing. I don't have a lot of 4-pin tubes, so I doubt I have a #83  I'll check again for you though. I like the old 4- 5- and 7-pin tubes, shame the 707 can't test them (I have nothing against my Jackson though, which can).


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 707 can check 7 pin tubes.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

FINALLY !! I grabbed a little time last night to quickly try some V1 alternatives in my 900SL-X. Since my previous post I have picked up a few different, mostly used but working tubes:

A Telefunken, blue print "foreign" Mazda, grey print British Mazda, a NOS GE among others. I already had a Brimar, a couple of Ei's & one or two other to try.

It was far from a true test as it was only house volume, but the Telefunken definitely had a significant harmonic content compared to the other tubes, so I'll run that first at tonight's rehearsal. I'm also taking a small number of the other tubes to try if I have the opportunity.

Wish me luck


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 707 can check 7 pin tubes.



It does the B7G miniature 7-pin tubes, I mean the old big-base 7 pin tubes... which I can't think of the name of this early in the morning (refer back to my picture of the 1625's, I mean 7-pins like those)


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> FINALLY !! I grabbed a little time last night to quickly try some V1 alternatives in my 900SL-X. Since my previous post I have picked up a few different, mostly used but working tubes:
> 
> A Telefunken, blue print "foreign" Mazda, grey print British Mazda, a NOS GE among others. I already had a Brimar, a couple of Ei's & one or two other to try.
> 
> It was far from a true test as it was only house volume, but the Telefunken definitely had a significant harmonic content compared to the other tubes, so I'll run that first at tonight's rehearsal. I'm also taking a small number of the other tubes to try if I have the opportunity.
> 
> Wish me luck



Sounds like you've got some good glass! A Telefunken can be the perfect V1 tube. The harmonics are what I like about them, too. 

Can you post a pic of the Mazdas? Those can be some expensive tubes. Are they the silver plate ones?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Sounds like you've got some good glass! A Telefunken can be the perfect V1 tube. The harmonics are what I like about them, too.
> 
> Can you post a pic of the Mazdas? Those can be some expensive tubes. Are they the silver plate ones?



Sounds promising, we'll see what it does with some grunt behind it.

No the Mazda's are grey plates, the blue print has short plates, about 14mm & the white print has 17mm plates. They cost me under £10 for the pair from Ebay 

I'll get some pictures up tomorrow evening & add them to my tube gallery.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Fellow glass hounds!!!!

Been away at Sound Garden, Queens of the Stone Age, Mastodon and The Meat Puppets in the George Amphitheater (amazing show and trip BTW!)

I have a CP El-34 question for ya.

I have these two pulls from re-tubes I did. I thought they were both =C=. But I just noticed that one has a slant (30 degree) getter and a slightly taller bottle (these came from an Orange Rockerverb as I recall) while the other has a 90 degree getter with a shorter bottle. The 90 degree shorter bottle came from an JVM.











Any idea what they truly are????

EDIT (SHIT!) - Sorry guys!!! This belongs in the Power amp tube thread!!!


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Fellow glass hounds!!!!
> 
> Been away at Sound Garden, Queens of the Stone Age, Mastodon and The Meat Puppets in the George Amphitheater (amazing show and trip BTW!)



Meat Puppets! Haven't heard them since the 80's!


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a pair of 2000 Svetlanas (= Winged C) and they look like the tube on the bottom. The bases are way more brown than that... probably from over-use. Get the Marshall numbers off the tubes and check out Big Dooley's sticky in the tech area. That's a good resource as to who made what.

Here's a pic of one of mine - they were stock tubes in my DSL50.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Meat Puppets! Haven't heard them since the 80's!



Hey SC,

Yeah, me either! I think the "Monsters" album in 1989 was the last time I saw them. All four of these bands hold a place for me, but I have to say that Meat Puppets was the coolest part. They are so down to earth! Curt and Chis's vocal harmonies were spot on. They did a cover of the Beach Boys "Sloop John B" that gave me goose bumps!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I have a pair of 2000 Svetlanas (= Winged C) and they look like the tube on the bottom. The bases are way more brown than that... probably from over-use. Get the Marshall numbers off the tubes and check out Big Dooley's sticky in the tech area. That's a good resource as to who made what.
> 
> Here's a pic of one of mine - they were stock tubes in my DSL50.



Thanks Alan.

I'll check it out!

EDIT - No source codes on the Orange pulls.


----------



## BluesRocker

My guess is Rubys..


----------



## RiverRatt

Back to preamp tubes - I've had some incredible luck lately. I've found a 1958 Mullard 12AX7, some IEC Mullard I63's, a Bel, a couple of silver plate Ei's, an Amperex and a Tungsram. I was playing with the Tungsram tonight in the Vintage Modern and it is a great V1 tube! Really aggresive sounding but pretty dark as well. All the others have been really nice, too. It's a lot different from rolling tubes in the DSL50. Tubes that I didn't like in it are blowing me away in the VM. I think a stronger V1 tube is what gets the VM's tone happening.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> My guess is Rubys..



Hey BR!

How are ya!!!

I thought all Rubys were re-branded tubes?


----------



## BluesRocker

V1 controls the Body and Detail.. 1 side is body and the other is Detail


----------



## BluesRocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey BR!
> 
> How are ya!!!
> 
> I thought all Rubys were re-branded tubes?



They are.. But Marshall uses them also.. Specially in their newer amps.. So that could be a possibility..

Doing good btw.. Thanks for asking


----------



## RiverRatt

Still got anything interesting for sale?


----------



## BluesRocker

Just the same ol stuff.. I havent bumped that thread in a while.. been busy.. lol


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm debating on selling the old Ampeg. It's sounding righteous, but (A) I don't have room for it, and (B) I need to catch up on a payment or two. F'in economy is killing me.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I hear ya on the economy.. it sucks


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you look at history (and history repeating itself), I think it is safe to say that this bad economy is here to stay for many, many years. 

I'd say more, but this isn't the proper place.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Anyone heard of these; Golden Dragon ECC83T (Trustworthy)

Chinese CP tubes supposedly not fizzy or brittle ? I've seen them cropping up on Ebay recently, but not heard of them before ??


----------



## RiverRatt

Probably hand-picked Shugangs, but they could be a special run. Seems like the better stuff is coming out of China these days. That Northern that Marty sent around was probably the most impressive CP tube I've seen.

I didn't mention my foray into the old electronics repairman's shop last Friday. It was a trip. He was very old and not quite there most of the time. He had maybe a couple dozen tubes and all were useless. There was a 6L6GC and EL34 - both Chinese. He had a TRAM transmitter/receiver that I would have loved to open up as well as a lot of other HAM gear, but he wasn't having any of that. 

I hung around and chatted for awhile anyway. He wanted to know why I was looking for all these old tubes? "Don't you know everything is transistors now?" I told him that there were more tube guitar amps on the market now than ever before and he couldn't believe it. 

I had another guy tell me I was wasting my time looking for the old ones. "You know they're still making them things overseas, don't you?"

Some people just don't get it.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Places like that are so cool, but becoming ever fewer & further between sadly.

_"You know they're still making them things overseas, don't you?"_ REALLY ??? No shit !!


----------



## GIBSON67

I have a box of Radio Shack Tubes that a friend gave me years ago, are any of these worth anything? All are boxed in Gold Clad Lifetime Warranty boxes. 

Does anyone want to trade for one or two Mullard ECC83's? I really want to try one...or two. I aslo have 2 pairs of 6l6's Ge Blackplates and Jan Syl brown base, both used but test good. I haven't had a 6L6 amp in a while and no plans to get another.


1	6HZ6 Radio Shack	Canada
2	6AU6A	EF94 Radio Shack	Holland
1	6V4	EZ80 Amperex	Holland
1	2AV2 Radio Shack	Japan
4	3HM5	3HA5 Radio Shack	Japan
1	6AU6A	EF94 Radio Shack	Japan
2	6BK4C	6EL4A Radio Shack	Japan
3	6BL8	6CL6 Radio Shack	Japan
2	6DW4A	6CJ3	6CL3	Radio Shack	Japan
3	6EA8	6U8A Radio Shack	Japan
13	6GH8A Radio Shack	Japan
4	6GY6	6GX6 Radio Shack	Japan
1	6HM5	6HA5 Radio Shack	Japan
1	6HZ6 Radio Shack	Japan
2	17JZ8 Radio Shack	Korea
4	2AV2 Radio Shack	Korea
1	33GY7A Radio Shack	Korea
3	38HE7 Radio Shack	Korea
1	3A3	3AW3 Radio Shack	Korea
1	6AU6A	EF94 Radio Shack	Korea
4	6FQ7	6CG7 Radio Shack	Korea
6	6GH8A Radio Shack	Korea
2	6HM5	6HA5 Radio Shack	Korea
2	6HZ6 Radio Shack	Korea
3	8FQ7	8CG7 Radio Shack	Korea
1	12DW7 RCA	USA
3	17JZ8 Radio Shack	USA
3	33GY7A Radio Shack	USA
1	38HE7 Radio Shack	USA
5	3A3	3AW3 Radio Shack	USA
4	3CU3A Radio Shack	USA
1	6AN8 Sylvania	USA
4	6DW4A	6CJ3	6CL3	Radio Shack	USA
3	6GY6	6GX6 Radio Shack	USA
12	6AQ5A	EL90	6HG5	Radio Shack	USA
8	6KT8 Radio Shack	USA
5	6Z10	6J10 Radio Shack	USA
5	8FQ7	8CG7 Radio Shack	USA


----------



## MM54

Skimming over the list, I don't see anything that strikes me as useful, those are a lot of old TV and Radio tubes. I have shelves of tubes like that, most of them are worth a couple bucks, max, and that's if they're tested and you're lucky enough to find someone who needs one (or likes to collect tubes like I do). Your best bet really would probably be to sell them as a lot, or just hang on to them. Like I say, they don't eat anything.

Edit: Looking over it again, the EZ80 might get you a few bucks if someone needs one. Being that's it's made in Holland (Methinks Amperex?) and presumably NIB, you may be able to get around $20 out of it.


----------



## RiverRatt

The 6GH8A's can be used as a 7199 replacement in old Ampegs with a little rewiring of the socket. They aren't nearly as valuable as the 7199.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The 6GH8A's can be used as a 7199 replacement in old Ampegs with a little rewiring of the socket. They aren't nearly as valuable as the 7199.



You're telling me  I had over a dozen of them, all but two tested as shorted. I missed them when I skimmed over his list though.


----------



## GIBSON67

Cool, I guess I will list those you mentioned. I have a bunch of 12ax7's that I am going to roll soon, so I really want a Mullard too. But no trades?? I have an old Knight Tester that I test my 12AX7's. But these are NOS as far as I am concerned.


----------



## MM54

How much would you want for the rest of them, as a lot?


----------



## GIBSON67

I would trade for 2 good Mullards. Not the 6L6's though. I do have a NOS Radio Shack 
6l6GC that is NOS that i will throw in.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> You're telling me  I had over a dozen of them, all but two tested as shorted. I missed them when I skimmed over his list though.



Talk about skimming lists... how do you think I felt in that old TV shop staring at shelf after shelf after shelf of tube boxes and racking my brain trying to pick out the goodies? My son came to help - he said I was "out of it" for awhile. He wouldn't elaborate but apparently he thought I was having some sort of mental episode. After I explained to him the value of Mullard Xf2 EL34's he understood why I was shaking and speaking in tongues.


----------



## MM54

I buy most of my NOS 12AX7's as as much of an investment as I do as a tone hunt, so I was looking more for a dollar figure than a trade  I just like the idea of a little shelf in the cabinet dedicated to RS's Realistic Lifetime tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Talk about skimming lists... how do you think I felt in that old TV shop staring at shelf after shelf after shelf of tube boxes and racking my brain trying to pick out the goodies? My son came to help - he said I was "out of it" for awhile. He wouldn't elaborate but apparently he thought I was having some sort of mental episode. After I explained to him the value of Mullard Xf2 EL34's he understood why I was shaking and speaking in tongues.



I want to find a place like that  I already raided the only old TV shop around here, it's what started my collection, but it was nothing like you found. The only valuable tubes from the whole place were 3 or 4 12AX7's (Two Mullards and a GE or two).


----------



## GIBSON67

Yeah, those boxes are cool and I used to trade in old tubes for new tubes but I don't know if they still do this. I haven't tried it in 15 years or so.

$$$ Well, 2 Mullard go for around $50, is that fair?


----------



## MM54

GIBSON67 said:


> Yeah, those boxes are cool and I used to trade in old tubes for new tubes but I don't know if they still do this. I haven't tried it in 15 years or so.
> 
> $$$ Well, 2 Mullard go for around $50, is that fair?



I think I'll have to pass on that man  Cool or not, I can't justify spending that much on a bunch of tubes that I have no direct use for that likely won't gain value for quite a long time, if ever (Imagine what a NOS Mullard will be worth in 35 years? ). 

Just a tip, look carefully on ebay for people who don't know what they're talking about, and you can get great tubes cheap. I got a Holland Amperex 12AX7 for around $25, a smoothplate Ei for $10, multiple Mullards for under $15 a piece, and so on. Know what to look for and you can get some great deals on tubes when people don't know what they have


----------



## GIBSON67

That's cool...I have been watching Mullard for a few weeks, now. And I have picked up some good deals, too. I got three 5751's for $12, and a pair of EI's for $25. I have a Tungsram and RCA Blackplates. I also have unlabeled Sliver Dragons, Sovteks, and CP Tung Sols. One 12AZ7 and a 12BZ7, Magnavoxs, Sylvanias and Fender 7025's, some Motorolas amd a Westinghouse. See my list is almost complete. I still need a Mullard and Amperex and Telefunkin, all the expensive tubes, ha! 

But thanks for your consideration.


----------



## GIBSON67

Oh and from this thread's, I want to get some Raytheon's, too.


----------



## ckr1231

On Monday of this week, I got a Mullard and a Raytheon Black Plate from MartyStrat54.
I put the Mullard in V1 and the Raytheon in V2. My amp had been sounding very harsh and fizzy.
I have been rolling tubes for about a year and a half. I would become somewhat satisfied and then the next day or week the whole process would start over again. I changed out the power tubes and that just re-enforced my will to get a better pre amp response. 
The local guitar shops are very limited in the tubes they carry and I had never ordered any by mail before. The sites around the web just seem like they wanna sell you something without any real assistance. I other words: they are full of BS.
So I sent a PM to MartyStrat54 about the problem I was having and he recommended the Mullard and the Raytheon for V1 and V2. He could have told me I needed to change all the tubes but he didn't. He was straight up and honest with me about the problem I was having.
NOW, my amp is smooth as glass, crystal clear with heavy distortion and sounds better than it ever has ! 
2 tubes from him changed everything. They arrived in the mail very quickly and packaged very safely. If I can and he has them, I will get all my tubes from him.
Thank you MartyStrat54


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Having camera issues tonight, so I only managed to get decent pics of my Telefunken, sadly all the printing has rubbed off. Is that common with older tubes ?
It does have a code on it: 4E8/1573 if anyone can decode that I'd be much obliged.













I'll shoot new pics of the Mazdas & GE & post those tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does it have a diamond <> on the bottom between the pins?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Does it have a diamond <> on the bottom between the pins?



+1. The first thing I thought when I saw it was "Toshiba".


----------



## Blacque Jacque

No it doesn't, but it had a Tele diamond logo until yesterday, it's another one that just wiped off like dust when I removed it from the amp 

Here's the Ebay pic:


----------



## RiverRatt

That's not the same tube that was in the other pics.


----------



## RiverRatt

Did I mention it's too friggin' hot to LIVE here today?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Telefunkens are the most counterfeited tubes out there. If it does not have the <> on the bottom, it isn't a real Tele.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> That's not the same tube that was in the other pics.



Hmmm, no it isn't is it, did I get burned on this one ? 

I must admit I didn't compare it closely with the picture before installing it. 

It does sound good though, regardless of what breed it is


----------



## RiverRatt

The one in the eBay pic isn't a real Telefunken either. It has the Philips seams in the top. It looks like the ones I got a week or two ago. No idea who made them, but it wasn't Telefunken. 

That one in your first pictures I'm about 99% sure is a Toshiba. They always have those large round cutouts in the top and bottom mica spacers right between the plates on each side. They aren't bad - IMO they are similar to a GE.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I want to find a place like that  I already raided the only old TV shop around here, it's what started my collection, but it was nothing like you found. The only valuable tubes from the whole place were 3 or 4 12AX7's (Two Mullards and a GE or two).



Well, I'm finding that most of the 12AX7's I got from that shop were duds. All the ones I found were in boxes with other numbers that someone had written "12AX7" on. I think this guy must have been like me - he hated to throw anything away. The only really strong tubes I've tested have been the Amperex and the Tungsram. They both test high and sound good.

Organ tubes are not what they are cracked up to be, either. I tested all those pretty red-tipped GE's and not a single one tested higher than 20 on the B&K (22 is nominal good). For some reason the Philips Telefunkens and Mullards still test good. They were probably newer tubes that were put in to replace weak ones. I was going to help dude rebuild that organ and I just had to tell him the truth - he'd need to buy over 30 new 12AX7's, re-cap all the tone boards, replace some of the oscillators (if you can even find them), and there are those long wafer-like coated parts that are some sort of weird capacitor/resistor bank. He would have to spend upward of $1,000 to fix an organ that's only worth $150 or so. He'd be better off to yank the amp out of it and sell it on eBay as a guitar amp conversion project. The amp was the only thing good on the whole organ. Even the 6L6GC's that I got out of it aren't a good match.


----------



## MM54

Ouch

That's the sad part about tube organs, they sound great, but aren't worth rebuilding


----------



## RiverRatt

I've always wanted to buy an old Hammond chassis and turn it into a guitar amp. I read somewhere that Goodsell amps are essentially Hammond organ amps. According to Wikipedia, this is the case. It must be true if it's on Wikipedia


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Ouch
> 
> That's the sad part about tube organs, they sound great, but aren't worth rebuilding



If anybody likes the 1960's RCA 12AX7A's with the flat-sided micas, there's a ton of them in there. I haven't tested them but I do know there were at least a couple that were DOA. That old Wurlitzer must work the hell out of the tubes. I think that's one case where I would have to say that transistors were a good thing. I'll bet the old repair guys used to love to get called out to work on one of those ginormous church organs. You'd need two tube caddies and a truckload of test equipment to do it right.


----------



## MM54

I had a bunch of RCA 12AX7's from the 60's I pulled from a Wurlitzer  (And an unmatched GE and RCA 6L6)

I also have 29 12FQ8's from it -.-

The 12AX7s tested good, some were pretty worn though. As old as they are, and knowing the organ got a lot of use, I'm not too surprised. I've sold/traded almost all of them, I'm not a huge fan of them (they were with the slant-top getter). I may have one or two left somewhere around here.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not a big RCA fan, either. Even in a Fender amp I prefer GE or Sylvania. I think the later 1960's production wasn't as good as the old 1950's black plates. I don't care much for I63 Mullards either and they are from the same time frame.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I'll bet the old repair guys used to love to get called out to work on one of those ginormous church organs. You'd need two tube caddies and a truckload of test equipment to do it right.



Well, what most of them did was replace all of the tubes and charge the church. If you remember, a while back I was given a big box of 6SN7's from an organ. All of these were NOS brands. I tested them and couldn't find a bad one. 

Same thing with another church organ and 12AX7's. It appeared that the OE tube was Raytheon gray plates, but the organ had several other brands. I bought 20 of them and they all tested at around 26 or 27 on my 707.

I think the "church" approach was just to replace all of the tubes instead of finding the one or two that were weak.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Did I mention it's too friggin' hot to LIVE here today?



Yeah, but the warmup time on your amp is shorter so you can play sooner, right?


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> If anybody likes the 1960's RCA 12AX7A's with the flat-sided micas, there's a ton of them in there. I haven't tested them but I do know there were at least a couple that were DOA. That old Wurlitzer must work the hell out of the tubes. I think that's one case where I would have to say that transistors were a good thing. I'll bet the old repair guys used to love to get called out to work on one of those ginormous church organs. You'd need two tube caddies and a truckload of test equipment to do it right.



Are these Made in Great Britain...Mullards? If so they actually work well for me in my amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, they're just your common RCA 12AX7A. Some people like them. If the tubemongerlib pic will show up, they look like these:


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Hey guys, I want to be able to swap pre amp tubes on my amp, but tubes here are expensive, and I can't really afford buying a bunch of tubes and trying them.

I have an Orange AD30 and it has 2 12AX7s (I think they're Electro Harmonix, I can't rmemeber).
I heard good stuff about NOS tubes, but I don't know if I have the sufficient funds to spend on NOS tubes.

Any recommendations for me to try out beside the EH tubes to try swapping and trynig different sounds?
I also read (of course it could just be a marketing scheme) that there are some tubes that have a NOS vibe to them.
Since I'm no expert, I'm asking here.

Thanks!


----------



## sccloser

I like the current production Tung Sol 12ax7. I think they are like $12 to $16 each...not sure. Sometimes you can get NOS for that.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Here in Argentina those are worth US$30 each. Multiply that by 4 (currency here).
So thats about 120 Argentine pesos, PLUS shipping.
A set of strings here (Argentine strings) is worth 30/35 pesos. (So you compare and get the idea)


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Shit... Damn tube amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

Doesn't the AD30 have four 12AX7's? That's what it says on the MF website. I'm not really sure what to recommend for you to try. I've never used an Orange. I would think a nice European 12AX7 in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. I could help you out with the V1 tube but my stash of Raytheons is about gone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wanna try Russian 6N2P's in your amp? Here is a conversion socket for sale from Germany.

convert tube socket ECC83 / 12AX7 > to > 6N2P | eBay


----------



## solarburn

"What is to do"?LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

I love it! I'm going to sell all my Mullards and Telefunkens and buy 6N2P adapters with the money! Let's see... I've got 3 amps with 10 12AX7's between them. 

WHY THAT CHANGE ?!
1. russian 6N2P tubes live much longer than usually preamp tubes,
2. russian preamp tubes sounding great,
3. russian tubes cost a part of standard preamp tubes,
and all this
4. without any interventions into your amplifier !
5. you don´t have to change all preamp tube, you can mix them too !

I wasn't sold until I found out I could do this without any interventions into my amplifier!


----------



## MM54

Hey guys, remember before my plan about the mullard vs reissue in a dissection? I found two hours to do it today and am currently putting together the post to post. I'll link to it from here when I do


----------



## MartyStrat54

SmokeyDopey said:


> Hey guys, I want to be able to swap pre amp tubes on my amp, but tubes here are expensive, and I can't really afford buying a bunch of tubes and trying them.
> 
> I have an Orange AD30 and it has 2 12AX7s (I think they're Electro Harmonix, I can't rmemeber).
> I heard good stuff about NOS tubes, but I don't know if I have the sufficient funds to spend on NOS tubes.
> 
> Any recommendations for me to try out beside the EH tubes to try swapping and trynig different sounds?
> I also read (of course it could just be a marketing scheme) that there are some tubes that have a NOS vibe to them.
> Since I'm no expert, I'm asking here.
> 
> Thanks!



I would seriously consider trying my luck on International EBAY and scoring some real NOS tubes. The RCA's, GE's, Raytheon's and Sylvania's can be had for around $20 to $25 each. This is about the same price range as a current production tube. Just a thought.

For current production, I would get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard RI and see which one you like best in V1. Then use the other one in V2. Your Orange amp may have more than two 12AX7's in it as Ratt stated. However, V1 and V2 are going to be the most important. V1 will dictate the balls and the tone of the amp. V2 will just boost this.

If you do decide to go the NOS route, just post what you are thinking about buying and we will give our opinion on it.

We just did multiple tests on the new Northern Electric 12AX7. This is a pretty nice tube, but it costs $58 and you can get NOS for less. As far as some CP tubes sounding like NOS, that is a matter of opinion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

NOTE-I got the RFT's in from Russia. I have already sold six of them. I have four of these NOS RFT's left. Two are high gain V1 tubes and the other two are lopsided high gain PI tubes. Contact me if interested. These are going fast.


----------



## MM54

http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-reissue-vs-original-phyiscal-comparison.html


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-reissue-vs-original-phyiscal-comparison.html



That was cool. Thanx for the experiment and analysis. Good job Matt!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would seriously consider trying my luck on International EBAY and scoring some real NOS tubes. The RCA's, GE's, Raytheon's and Sylvania's can be had for around $20 to $25 each. This is about the same price range as a current production tube. Just a thought.
> 
> For current production, I would get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard RI and see which one you like best in V1. Then use the other one in V2. Your Orange amp may have more than two 12AX7's in it as Ratt stated. However, V1 and V2 are going to be the most important. V1 will dictate the balls and the tone of the amp. V2 will just boost this.
> 
> If you do decide to go the NOS route, just post what you are thinking about buying and we will give our opinion on it.
> 
> We just did multiple tests on the new Northern Electric 12AX7. This is a pretty nice tube, but it costs $58 and you can get NOS for less. As far as some CP tubes sounding like NOS, that is a matter of opinion.


 
The amp I have is actually a clone, and it is an AD30 Single channel. Not sure if this would have to do with the amount of pre amp tubes (Would it?).

I am interested in NOS tubes, just that I can't buy a bunch and test them, so this is *invaluable *information.
I guess I'll have to narrow it down between the RCAs, GEs, Raytheons and Sylvanias. Probably pick 2 brands and try with those.

I also have a Marshall 4500 that has the stock pre amp tubes (I never replaced them). I was thinking also of swapping the 4500 marshall tubes with the AD30's to see what it sounds like. The 4500 has ECC83s, branded "Marshall". Are these any good?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

MartyStrat54 said:


> For current production, I would get a Tung-Sol and a Mullard RI and see which one you like best in V1. Then use the other one in V2. Your Orange amp may have more than two 12AX7's in it as Ratt stated. However, V1 and V2 are going to be the most important. *V1 will dictate the balls and the tone of the amp. V2 will just boost this.*


 
If I used a 'cleaner' tube for V2, like you mentioned, just to specifically BOOST V1, will I lose the amount of gain it currently has? (or should I say crunch/distortion)
For example if I use a 12AU7 or a 12AY7 for V2.


So I'm thinking a good NOS tube for V1, and a cleaner V2 to boost that.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the V2 tube to be stronger than V1 in a modern Marshall. I wouldn't recommend using either of those tubes in your Orange. Does your amp run 2 12AX7's and 2 EL84's? Odds are the V2 tube is just acting as the phase inverter. All your tone will come from V1. I haven't found a schematic for an amp like yours, but I found the amp mentioned in a couple of places.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

2 12AX7s and 4 EL84s


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I found a place called the Orange Amp Field Guide that lists the AD30 as using 1.5 12AX7's in the preamp, the other half of V2 is a cathodyne phase inverter. I'd still put the hotter tube in V2 and I'd only use 12AX7's. Anything less will probably neuter the gain.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Cool, thanks for the heads up. I was loonking at ebay (from argentina), and I saw a NOS GE 12AU7, I was asking the guy some questions. 
I'll stick to 12AX7s then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Smokey-Try and find some GE's. I like these and I think you will too.

Like Alan (RiverRatt) said, stick with the 12AX7/ECC83's.


----------



## MM54

Mmmm, preamp tubes...


----------



## sccloser

Since I was a child, I have always loved those Black and Red RCA boxes!


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the biggest part of my collection. I've probably got another 15 12AX7/5751's tied up in amps and tube rolling, and who knows how many more 12AU7's and 12AT7's - they accumulate like rectifier tubes. If anyone needs a 6CG7/6FQ7 I'll be glad to hook you up. My Ampeg uses one in the reverb/tremolo/vibrato board... I think I have enough spares!


----------



## MM54

One day sometime soon before I leave I'll snap a shot of my entire tube collection


----------



## RiverRatt

I gave away a few hundred tubes this past weekend to a HAM guy I met. They were useless to me and taking up storage space. They came from an old TV repair shop and were thoroughly picked-over by me. I sold a couple of Mullard GZ34's out of the batch for over $100 on eBay so I wasn't losing anything. I've still got way too many junk tubes.

As soon as the weather cools down and we can get into a storage building and do some serious moving around, I have a good lead on a box of tubes from a guy who did amp repair in the 1970's. I'm hoping there will be some decent stuff in there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't you wish they had "tube sniffing" dogs?


----------



## RiverRatt

That's OK. I think I'm starting to develop that sense on my own


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well maybe I ought to buy you a collar and a leash.


----------



## guitargoalie

i posted this before but am looking for more opinions. I just got my dsl50, im using it with a 1x12 v30 and i find it quite bright and a bit harsh. The tubes are all stock marshall (which are the same as sovtek correct?) I have a tung sol, eh, and 2 china 12ax7b's sitting around . I dont want to spend hours trying out each tube in each position lol so what are the some combos i should try out

just looked up the marshall stock codes, 3 of the tubes are 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang No Selection White logo, and 1 is 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang B Low Microphony White Logo. I didn't realize one was different and now i forget which slot the shugang b was in.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well maybe I ought to buy you a collar and a leash.



Only if I get to keep some of them. You have to let the dog have the rabbit every now and then.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitargoalie said:


> just looked up the marshall stock codes, 3 of the tubes are 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang No Selection White logo, and 1 is 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang B Low Microphony White Logo. I didn't realize one was different and now i forget which slot the shugang b was in.



The B should go in V1. I doubt that it's that much different from your other Shugangs, but that's where Marshall intended it to go. I got lucky - my DSL50 was old enough to come with Ei ECC83's, probably the last Philips tube factory to go under. They made it to around 2005 before they closed. I think the BEL factory may have kept producing tubes for that long.


----------



## guitargoalie

yea i put it back in there and the stock tubes back in the the other slots. The amp fried the tungsol in the v3, i read later that it doesn't take those there very well. The china 12ax7b's i have are gonna be the same as the stock marshalls i assume so its either the eh in the v1 or that, which do u think is darker and less harsh? Also, does the master volume affect the preamp tube tone? I recorded samples of my tube swaps at lower volume and the difference was miniscule


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys.. I traded off the 6100 today for a 2204.. I did a quick playing with it just now.. Cause I just got home.. I threw a Tele in V1, a Ray BP in V2 and a JRP Raytheon in the PI.. 

Damn this thing is loud.. I was rattling shit in the house at 2... Reminds me of my SLP with more gain


----------



## MartyStrat54

While the 6100 is more flexible, I will still take the "old school" amp over it. 

They do sound awesome, don't they?

Look inside a 6100 and a 2204 and ask yourself which amp would you like to work on?


----------



## BluesRocker

I agree with ya Marty... The 800 is more organic sounding.. The 6100 had some great tones no doubt.. But when it came down to it.. It was lacking that bit of tone I am looking for.. It couldnt do an 800 spot on.. Close.. But no cigar.. This 800 kills.. Ima crank the shit outta it tomorrow


----------



## guitargoalie

bluesrocker and marty, any opinions? ^


----------



## BluesRocker

guitargoalie said:


> yea i put it back in there and the stock tubes back in the the other slots. The amp fried the tungsol in the v3, i read later that it doesn't take those there very well. The china 12ax7b's i have are gonna be the same as the stock marshalls i assume so its either the eh in the v1 or that, which do u think is darker and less harsh? Also, does the master volume affect the preamp tube tone? I recorded samples of my tube swaps at lower volume and the difference was miniscule



The best way to find out what sounds good is to try them all in V1.. Just rotate them out.. It is called "tube rolling"

The Master Volume does not effect the Preamp tube tone..


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are swapping the same kind (brand) of tube in V1, it will not make a tone difference.


----------



## guitargoalie

i realize that, so the tung sol and eh will be the same, and the 2 chinese ones will be the same, so i'll just try those two types. Diesect told me that the v3 is for the ultra gain channel so i should look into swapping that aswell, true? Now if money were no object here and you could recommend a whole set, preamp and power amp, NOS and CP, what would they be for darkening the dsl and removing fizzy highs. Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys.. I traded off the 6100 today for a 2204.. I did a quick playing with it just now.. Cause I just got home.. I threw a Tele in V1, a Ray BP in V2 and a JRP Raytheon in the PI..
> 
> Damn this thing is loud.. I was rattling shit in the house at 2... Reminds me of my SLP with more gain



Damn, dude. You're getting some serious gear! Congrats!


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks Alan.. I just played it with the volume on around 2.5.. I think I ruptured my spleen.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitargoalie said:


> i realize that, so the tung sol and eh will be the same, and the 2 chinese ones will be the same, so i'll just try those two types. Diesect told me that the v3 is for the ultra gain channel so i should look into swapping that aswell, true? Now if money were no object here and you could recommend a whole set, preamp and power amp, NOS and CP, what would they be for darkening the dsl and removing fizzy highs. Thanks



V3 is the tone stack/cathode follower and has very little effect on the tone. If I were re-tubing and money was no object, I'd pick up a long plate Mullard 12AX7, a Telefunken smooth plate, a Raytheon black plate, and a couple of strong Sylvanias for V3 and V4. The Raytheon goes in V2 and I'd try the Mullard and Telefunken in V1 and see which you like best. If the Mullard and Tele stretch your budget, you could try an Ei and maybe an old Matsushita or a BEL. They will sound similar to the Tele (Ei) or the Mullard.

Power tubes in the DSL50? I'd get a pair of RFT's. They sound great, last a really long time, and Marty has a few in stock IIRC.

If you want my honest opinion, you aren't going to get a great tone playing the DSL through a 1x12 V30 cabinet. I'd spend some money on a decent 4x12 before I went out and dropped a few hundred $$$ on tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Thanks Alan.. I just played it with the volume on around 2.5.. I think I ruptured my spleen.



That Laney AOR that I had was basically a 2203 with an extra preamp tube. It sounded really good, but the master vol. wouldn't do shit until you turned it up to 2, then it would rattle pictures off the wall. 

I love the tone of those amps but I'd never get a chance to hear it. Even with an attenuator it didn't help much.


----------



## guitargoalie

thanks for the suggestions, i agree that a big part of the small fizzy tone is because of only one speaker, i have a 1x12 extension cab that i may buy a g12h30 for which is supposed to be warmer than a v30, just dont have room for a half stack atm.


----------



## RiverRatt

guitargoalie said:


> thanks for the suggestions, i agree that a big part of the small fizzy tone is because of only one speaker, i have a 1x12 extension cab that i may buy a g12h30 for which is supposed to be warmer than a v30, just dont have room for a half stack atm.



If you could get a 2x12 like an Avatar cab or Mojo and put your V30 and a G12H30 in it, that would be a great sounding cab! 

Just about any decent 12AX7 in V1 and the Raytheon black plate in V2 will go a long way toward getting rid of the fizziness. You asked a few posts back about the master volume affecting the preamp... it won't make the preamp really sound any different, but like most newer Marshalls the DSL really starts to sound _*good*_ at around 4 on the master volume.


----------



## guitargoalie

thanks bud, i noticed that when i mic my cab with a 58 to abletone live and listen back, it sounds fuller and the fizz is gone, weird its just a live thing i hear haha. I'll but updated my NAD thread with a video and pics sometime later today maybe u guys can check it out


----------



## BluesRocker

I just put my RCA labeled Mullard in the 2204.. Had the Telefunken in there.. I like the Mullard a bit better.. It doesnt seem as bright..


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm starting to like my old Mullard more and more. This is the first long-plate I've had and it really sounds nice in a Marshall!


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, I am liking the lower mids it has... They seem to really make a good growl.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When this thread started, Joe and Alan had a DSL and Josh and I had the TSL. Now, several years later, look at where our tastes have gone. I still have my TSL's, but man are they dusty. I just love my Fat Strat through the 2204. Everyone has gone to something new. Joe is wanting either a 4 hole or a JMP 2203. Rolling tubes in these amps are easier to do. As I said, put a good one in V1 and your amp 2203/4 will thank you.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah.. I agree with you Marty.. When I started on this forum I had my JCM900 4500.. That I had tolexed in red snakeskin


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember that. You have gone from beer to fine Scotch whiskey.


----------



## kenigv

THanks River Ratt. I will rebias my power tubes!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys, 

Sorry to be a stranger, I have been swamped lately. 

Alan - I still have not had time to roll that 6bz7. I am going to try for tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

12BZ7. I hope I didn't send you a 6BZ7... I think that's a 7-pin tube. 

I know what you mean... I haven't had the time or inclination to do much rolling since I got that B&K tester. It's become an obsession to get it working perfectly. I've got to get a Fluke meter... my Sperry just doesn't cut it. I can't do one of the calibrations until I get a True RMS meter. Those things aren't cheap, either. I would just sell off some tubes to fund it, but they aren't selling worth a damn these days. After what happened with the Mullard EL34's I'm staying away from eBay for awhile. I've got three 7591A's that have more watchers than the Mullards did. Once they sell I'm done.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> 12BZ7. I hope I didn't send you a 6BZ7... I think that's a 7-pin tube.
> 
> I know what you mean... I haven't had the time or inclination to do much rolling since I got that B&K tester. It's become an obsession to get it working perfectly. I've got to get a Fluke meter... my Sperry just doesn't cut it. I can't do one of the calibrations until I get a True RMS meter. Those things aren't cheap, either. I would just sell off some tubes to fund it, but they aren't selling worth a damn these days. After what happened with the Mullard EL34's I'm staying away from eBay for awhile. I've got three 7591A's that have more watchers than the Mullards did. Once they sell I'm done.



Nope, you are right Alan, it is a 12bz7! 

I have had two rush re-tubes and work has been form hell. I have not had time to think! But the money is good. 

I am lusting after your B&K find. I really need to get a tester so I can quit borrowing time on my buddies Hickock. 

Yea, EBay is all over the place right now. Some tubes are selling way too high, while others sell way low. I dont get it it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I bid on five West German Sonotones. The guy did not list them very good and I thought I could get them cheap. I believe they were actually S and H's. Anyway, I did my snipe bidding and was shocked to see that the sniper got sniped. The price went up by almost $200. Somebody really wanted them tubes.


----------



## Marshall Mann

I had those on my watch list Marty!!!

Then on the other side of the coin, I was able to grab those NIB BELs for $14.00 each. it's crazy right now.


----------



## solarburn

Scott you scored big on those BEL's. Nice!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I bid on five West German Sonotones. The guy did not list them very good and I thought I could get them cheap. I believe they were actually S and H's. Anyway, I did my snipe bidding and was shocked to see that the sniper got sniped. The price went up by almost $200. Somebody really wanted them tubes.



$200 yikes! Hell of a jump.


----------



## MM54

You guys make me want to get back in to buying tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Nope, you are right Alan, it is a 12bz7!



The 12BZ7...it lives!!!

They were nasty in the DSL/TSL's. Never did try them in a JMP/JCM MV, let alone a four holer. 

I look forward to reading your comments.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys!


----------



## BluesRocker

Can you guys guess what amp this is?

I am having a hard time figuring it out..


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like Joey Voltage heater windings to me...


----------



## BluesRocker

Winner winner Chicken Dinner!!!!

Thats a teaser of the SLP


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like Joey's work period. Did you get the 59 back?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 12BZ7...it lives!!!
> 
> They were nasty in the DSL/TSL's. Never did try them in a JMP/JCM MV, let alone a four holer.
> 
> I look forward to reading your comments.



I really liked the 12BZ7 for distorted tones. Very Billy Gibbons sounding pinch harmonics. It destroyed the clean tones, though. Strangely, my Ampeg GV-22 had a baggie of extra tubes in the back of it when I bought it, and one was a 12BZ7. There was also a smooth plate Tele in there as well. Not bad for $50. I can't believe I was about to trade it for an iffy Hickok tester... I'm going to hang on to it as long as I can. With the recent cap job and a 5751 in V1 it's a tone monster again!


----------



## BluesRocker

Not yet.. He is done with it though from what I understand.. He is just making sure that it wont blow up on me.. He told me he has a couple more things to do then she is mine


----------



## RiverRatt

Is there anything original left in it?


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Is there anything original left in it?



Yeah, all he did was replace the board with a 68 spec PTP. Transformers, choke, pots, etc are all original.


----------



## RiverRatt

You gonna stick with the stock transformers and choke?


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah... At least for now.. Im broke.. Cant afford that change yet.. If I do decide to then I will save up.. But I highly doubt that I will change them


----------



## RiverRatt

So, what's your current rig? I know it's changed a lot over the last few months.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> So, what's your current rig? I know it's changed a lot over the last few months.



Right now its (What I will gig with)

Main guitars
Gibson LP Standard Faded- Dimarzio pups
Lace Cybercaster

Amp
1985 JCM800 2204
1960AX Cab

Pedals
Bonamassa Fuzz Face
Jerry Cantrell Wah
Ibanez TS9- modded to 808
MXR CAE Line Driver
BBE Sonic Stomp
Boss DD6 Delay
MXR Noise Gate

and Audio Technica Wireless


----------



## RiverRatt

You like the TS9 better with the mods? I've got a TS9 RI and I love the tone.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I do.. It has a more organic tone now.. It really took out the mid hump in it, and kinda leveled it a bit.. But it still retains some of the mid hump though.. Does that make sense? Also I have it where I can change the chips in it also


----------



## RiverRatt

I like that mid-hump. I've got 2 or 3 pedals that will do scooped, but the TS9 just seems to hit the sweet spot with the VM.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, The VM does love a Tube Screamer.. thats for sure... Well at least I know yours does


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the 2204 is your main gigging amp, what is the 59 going to be? You've spent too much money on it to make it your "B" amp.

It would be like me going back to my TSL after using the JMP and JCM for a year.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well that is until I get it back.. 

For sure she will be my #1 when she is back home.. No doubt about that.. But for now, the 2204 is the gigger.. 

I know I cant bloody wait til she is back home


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I could have probably any Marshall to play through. I was never much on the four holers. I got to have a master volume. You might find the transition to be a little tough. That 2204 is a good amp and they are ballsy, probably one of the more ballsy amps I have been around for just putting out 50 watts.

The four holers were made for festival stages. Fully cranked and still had a mic on it for the PA. I can't deny that the full volume tone of a NMV amp is very tasty. It is, but look how loud you have to be to get to that tone?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I could have probably any Marshall to play through. I was never much on the four holers. I got to have a master volume. You might find the transition to be a little tough. That 2204 is a good amp and they are ballsy, probably one of the more ballsy amps I have been around for just putting out 50 watts.
> 
> The four holers were made for festival stages. Fully cranked and still had a mic on it for the PA. I can't deny that the full volume tone of a NMV amp is very tasty. It is, but look how loud you have to be to get to that tone?



Hence why I got power scaling on it..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I want to hear it from you that the amp sounds as good at 1 watt as it does 100.

Maybe it will. I do not have any experience with power scaling.


----------



## BluesRocker

I will be the one to tell you too.. lol

But all in all, I would say that it will sound better at 100 because of the air, speakers being pushed more, and so on..


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Scott you scored big on those BEL's. Nice!



Hey Joe! 

I kind of stole them off Alan though.... 

They are still in the 6100, I am really liking them.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 12BZ7...it lives!!!
> 
> They were nasty in the DSL/TSL's. Never did try them in a JMP/JCM MV, let alone a four holer.
> 
> I look forward to reading your comments.



I cant wait to try it out. It's been staring at me all week saying "roll me"!

I was hoping to spin it in the DSL and the JVM I had in, but they wanted them back in a hurry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Joe!
> 
> I kind of stole them off Alan though....
> 
> They are still in the 6100, I am really liking them.



???Was this an EBAY deal, or did you buy them from Alan?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> ???Was this an EBAY deal, or did you buy them from Alan?



No, it was an EBay deal. It turns out that Alan and I were bidding against each other. The auction ended at something like 3:00 AM west cost time, so I waited as long as I could and sniped them from him unknowingly.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's no big deal. If I'd known I was bidding against a forum brother I wouldn't have pushed the price up. They were going to sell pretty cheap. I gots one now anyway


----------



## Chondropython

I've been scouring eBay for for the past few days looking for NOS ECC83 tubes... I've found there are a ton of different ones out there... are there certain ones that are better than other, or is any NOS tube going to be better than say a newly manufactured JJ?

Also, since these are preamp tubes, do they have to be matched? My amp needs 4, so I was looking for a matched quad or even a matched 5 to have an extra one... is this necessary?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, they don't need to be matched at all. The construction will be better on any of the old tubes as a general rule, but they all have their tonal differences. Some sound like ass in a guitar amp. What's your amp and what kind of tone are you looking for?


----------



## Chondropython

This will be for a DSL401... mine is a 2004 model and, as best as I can tell, all the tubes are original (they say "Marshall" on them). I bought the amp used and have had it about 2 years.

I would say that 70% of the time I play on the clean channel, 25% on the OD1 channel, and 5% on OD2 (solos, etc). I play mainly classic rock / blues... from Albert King to Stones to Zepplin.

I definitely don't want "high gain" / metal sounding tubes.... just something that is nice & crisp sounding on the clean channel that will also crunch and do Jimmy Page nicely as well. 

Hoping the tube swap and a new speaker will dramatically improve the sound of this amp (not that I don't like it now, but it could definitly be better).


----------



## RiverRatt

The 401 should be pretty easy. The usual formula of a Philips or Telefunken in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2 and Sylvanias in V3 and V4 should do well in that amp. 

There really isn't a preamp tube that can give your amp a metal tone. What they will do is get rid of the "fizzy" tone that some people complain about and make your tone smoother. Sometimes a high gain tube works great in V1 for the tones you are describing. I like a higher gain tube for the punch, not sizzle. Different brands of tubes have different characteristics as far as the frequencies they emphasize or cut and the even-order harmonics they add to your tone. Cork sniffing to some, but I can hear a noticeable difference in my amp's tone and response by changing (rolling) different tubes in V1. We've all tried different tubes in V2 and it seems to be the general consensus that you can't do any better than a Raytheon black plate in V2.

If you don't want to go through the hassle of eBay, Marty can hook you up with some nice preamp tubes.


----------



## Chondropython

RiverRatt said:


> The 401 should be pretty easy. The usual formula of a Philips or Telefunken in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2 and Sylvanias in V3 and V4 should do well in that amp.
> 
> There really isn't a preamp tube that can give your amp a metal tone. What they will do is get rid of the "fizzy" tone that some people complain about and make your tone smoother. Sometimes a high gain tube works great in V1 for the tones you are describing. I like a higher gain tube for the punch, not sizzle. Different brands of tubes have different characteristics as far as the frequencies they emphasize or cut and the even-order harmonics they add to your tone. Cork sniffing to some, but I can hear a noticeable difference in my amp's tone and response by changing (rolling) different tubes in V1. We've all tried different tubes in V2 and it seems to be the general consensus that you can't do any better than a Raytheon black plate in V2.
> 
> If you don't want to go through the hassle of eBay, Marty can hook you up with some nice preamp tubes.



Thanks! 

Marty, could you PM me if you read this? Can you send me a price for a set as described above?


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Alan and my fellow glass hounds, I finally got to roll the 12bz7 in the 6100.

WOW! Alan your were dead on with regards to the pinch harmonics. It really accentuates pick attack very well with out being raspy. It has a really nice mid quality to it. I though from looking at it that it would be prone to feedback and or might be soft in the bottom end, neither were true. It's a really nicely rounded tube! Very smooth highs. I am surprised these things are not more popular.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, instant Billy Gibbons! Maybe it'll hold up for awhile. I think that's why they aren't more popular - they just don't last long in a Marshall preamp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Congratulations! You just gave the first positive 12BZ7 review and what a glowing review it is. I guess we should have tried it in different amps. I would never have thought the 6100 would have liked it. The BZ7 howled like a banshee in my TSL 100 when the volume got over 2. Other than a "one trick pony" tone (like the harmonics), the tube failed as a good "overall' tube. 

I could say that I could try one in my JMP or JCM, but why mess with a solid tone? Besides, Wilder did the mods with 12AX7's being used, not a BZ7.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Congratulations! You just gave the first positive 12BZ7 review and what a glowing review it is. I guess we should have tried it in different amps. I would never have thought the 6100 would have liked it. The BZ7 howled like a banshee in my TSL 100 when the volume got over 2. Other than a "one trick pony" tone (like the harmonics), the tube failed as a good "overall' tube.
> 
> I could say that I could try one in my JMP or JCM, but why mess with a solid tone? Besides, Wilder did the mods with 12AX7's being used, not a BZ7.



I liked enough to buy it from Alan. 

I had the gain cranked on the red channel with the master at 12 noon (in the 50 watt setting) and the channel volume at 3:00 and experience no more howl than the 12ax7. Like I mentioned, judging it visually, I had fully expected it to feedback like crazy. I dont know that I'll leave it in there full time (I am still really liking the BEL's), but I felt it was worthy of a spot in the collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I gave mine a pretty good review when I got it, too. I decided after awhile that it couldn't stay in all the time, but it was fun for a couple of days. Seems like it made a decent V2 tube on the red channel, too. Kinda like that S-word hat guy's tone that we can't mention around here. 

I just got finished messin' with a ribbed plate Telefunken in the VM. Awesome.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> I liked enough to buy it from Alan.
> 
> I had the gain cranked on the red channel with the master at 12 noon (in the 50 watt setting) and the channel volume at 3:00 and experience no more howl than the 12ax7. Like I mentioned, judging it visually, I had fully expected it to feedback like crazy. I dont know that I'll leave it in there full time (I am still really liking the BEL's), but I felt it was worthy of a spot in the collection.


I'm glad you liked it. If you had been around when we initially tested the BZ7, I would have given you some free one's. I had over 20 of them at that time. Funny thing was, at the same time we were testing the BZ7, there was a guy on EBAY selling them and he was using real colorful words to describe the BZ7. "12AX7 on steroids!" "Sweet, singing distortion." Stuff like that. Anyway, it is obvious that the type of amp has a lot of bearing on how the BZ7 will respond.

Josh was using the BZ7 in a TSL 122 combo and those extra large plates were murder in that amp. Like I said, Josh went through at least five of them before giving up on them.

Then there was the Soldano Hot Mod. It sank like a ship. It never took off. It was a 6K11 triple triode and the assoiciated circuitry and adapter allowing you to plug it into a typical 12a_7 socket. I heard one in a Twin Reverb, and while interesting, it certainly didn't convert it into a SLO! In fact, it sounded quite "Boogie-like" at low volume levels, but when cranked up it went mushy and fed back like crazy.


----------



## BluesRocker

Dammit.. WTH

I just found out my 800 has become a radio


----------



## RiverRatt

Got any pedals hooked up? I had a Danelectro Daddy-O overdrive that would pull in a Mariachi station.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah...It is in my pedal board.. I have never had this happen before.. And I have used this lineup of pedals for a while


----------



## RiverRatt

It's probably atmospheric and will go away. Mine did.


----------



## BluesRocker

Cool.. It sounds like some kind of riot or something is going on.. Someone just got clubbed by something lol


----------



## guitargoalie

i saw that marshall ad in a guitarworld mag like 6 years ago, sweet pic ^


----------



## RiverRatt

I remember that ad, too. I also remember thinking of that "One of these things is not like the other" Sesame Street song.


----------



## BluesRocker

It would be cool if the damn Mode 4 wasnt such a freak and be taller


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm glad you liked it. If you had been around when we initially tested the BZ7, I would have given you some free one's. I had over 20 of them at that time. Funny thing was, at the same time we were testing the BZ7, there was a guy on EBAY selling them and he was using real colorful words to describe the BZ7. "12AX7 on steroids!" "Sweet, singing distortion." Stuff like that. Anyway, it is obvious that the type of amp has a lot of bearing on how the BZ7 will respond.
> 
> Josh was using the BZ7 in a TSL 122 combo and those extra large plates were murder in that amp. Like I said, Josh went through at least five of them before giving up on them.
> 
> Then there was the Soldano Hot Mod. It sank like a ship. It never took off. It was a 6K11 triple triode and the assoiciated circuitry and adapter allowing you to plug it into a typical 12a_7 socket. I heard one in a Twin Reverb, and while interesting, it certainly didn't convert it into a SLO! In fact, it sounded quite "Boogie-like" at low volume levels, but when cranked up it went mushy and fed back like crazy.



I think I have a 6K11 somewhere in the stash 

I do like the concept of triple triodes and the double pentodes I have. It's cool that there's so much in one tube (but at the same time, that much more that can go wrong).


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm glad you liked it. If you had been around when we initially tested the BZ7, I would have given you some free one's. I had over 20 of them at that time. Funny thing was, at the same time we were testing the BZ7, there was a guy on EBAY selling them and he was using real colorful words to describe the BZ7. "12AX7 on steroids!" "Sweet, singing distortion." Stuff like that. Anyway, it is obvious that the type of amp has a lot of bearing on how the BZ7 will respond.
> 
> Josh was using the BZ7 in a TSL 122 combo and those extra large plates were murder in that amp. Like I said, Josh went through at least five of them before giving up on them.
> 
> Then there was the Soldano Hot Mod. It sank like a ship. It never took off. It was a 6K11 triple triode and the assoiciated circuitry and adapter allowing you to plug it into a typical 12a_7 socket. I heard one in a Twin Reverb, and while interesting, it certainly didn't convert it into a SLO! In fact, it sounded quite "Boogie-like" at low volume levels, but when cranked up it went mushy and fed back like crazy.



Again, it's a nice addition, and I really want to try it come other amps. I dont know that it will stay the 6100. The mids are sweet for sure.

Never heard of the Soldano hot mod socket??? But to say an adapter or socket can turn an amp into a SLO is a stretch at best I guess.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> It would be cool if the damn Mode 4 wasnt such a freak and be taller



You know what they say BR, the cream always rises to the top. 

I know, I know, bad Scott!


----------



## BluesRocker

Marshall Mann said:


> You know what they say BR, the cream always rises to the top.
> 
> I know, I know, bad Scott!



You saying the Mode Four takes over the rest of the Marshall clan?

lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I think I have a 6K11 somewhere in the stash
> 
> I do like the concept of triple triodes and the double pentodes I have. It's cool that there's so much in one tube (but at the same time, that much more that can go wrong).



Yeah it's sort of like the TV/VCR combo. It was great as long as they both worked. I myself liked a separate VCR unit and TV. Same with my tubes. I'd rather have multiple tubes for a given circuit, than to try and get one tube to do it all. If one triode went out, you would have to buy a new 6K11. That would suck.


----------



## RiverRatt

Some people forget that just because it's a tube doesn't necessarily mean that it'll clip in a nice, musical way. Someone was talking about 12BH7's in Marty's Tube Facts thread. It was designed as a linear amplifier in a TV circuit IIRC, but Blackstar has been using it as a power tube in the HT5 and it will sub for a 12AT7 in a pinch. It's one of the few oddballs that's useful. 

You wouldn't believe some of the amps the HAM guys come up with. One of them has a friend who was excited to get some bizarre 42 volt Compactron I got out of that TV shop. He needed a second one to complete an amp he was building and apparently they are pretty rare. He was building it because he had a PT that would work with that tube.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> You saying the Mode Four takes over the rest of the Marshall clan?
> 
> lol



No, I cant say that in good faith BR. Only that it is far under rated and categorized.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marshall Mann said:


> No, I cant say that in good faith BR. Only that it is far under rated and categorized.



I was just joking... 

Hey, if I remember correctly you are into stoner rock...How about this


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziOu16T7CMc]Buffalo Killers - Let It Ride - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Some people forget that just because it's a tube doesn't necessarily mean that it'll clip in a nice, musical way. Someone was talking about 12BH7's in Marty's Tube Facts thread. It was designed as a linear amplifier in a TV circuit IIRC, but Blackstar has been using it as a power tube in the HT5 and it will sub for a 12AT7 in a pinch. It's one of the few oddballs that's useful.
> 
> You wouldn't believe some of the amps the HAM guys come up with. One of them has a friend who was excited to get some bizarre 42 volt Compactron I got out of that TV shop. He needed a second one to complete an amp he was building and apparently they are pretty rare. He was building it because he had a PT that would work with that tube.



Cool stuff Alan. I had forgotten that Blackstar was using them in the HT5.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> I was just joking...
> 
> Hey, if I remember correctly you are into stoner rock...How about this
> 
> 
> Buffalo Killers - Let It Ride - YouTube



Good stuff BR. I dont know if I would call them "Stoner Rock", but I like it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Good stuff BR. I dont know if I would call them "Stoner Rock", but I like it.



Yeah, its like 60's-70's stoner rock.. lol I could see myself back in the late 60s smoking a joint to that song


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah, its like 60's-70's stoner rock.. lol I could see myself back in the late 60s smoking a joint to that song



Yea, kind of more of a Classic Vibe going on.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, thats what I call stoner rock.. Something stoners play.. lol


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah, thats what I call stoner rock.. Something stoners play.. lol



Well I gave up getting high a few years back. But I still like "Stoner" rock. 

I know this is the wrong place for this, so one last post (sorry Marty) and it's back to tubes.

The kings of stoner rock (Josh was still using a cranked 2203 at this point). 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaeUak_35VU]Kyuss - Demon Cleaner - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah, its like 60's-70's stoner rock.. lol I could see myself back in the late 60s smoking a joint to that song



In the late 60's I was smoking a joint to all the songs.


----------



## BluesRocker

Cool... I got it now!


----------



## BluesRocker

Just recorded this with the 2204.. Boosted with the MXR CAE Boost

drivinrain.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

Everyone is free to post or say whatever they like on this thread. 

I go off on tangents all the time. Especially if it has boobs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Just recorded this with the 2204.. Boosted with the MXR CAE Boost
> 
> drivinrain.mp3



Thar ya go. That is classic 2204 toneage.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Just recorded this with the 2204.. Boosted with the MXR CAE Boost
> 
> drivinrain.mp3



Nice BR! Great bottom end on that clip!


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks guys..

That is the volume on .5


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Everyone is free to post or say whatever they like on this thread.
> 
> I go off on tangents all the time. Especially if it has boobs.



Thanks Marty,

I dont know if any one made it this far, but there is a nicely shaped ass at 1:59.

Just say'n.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I was just joking...
> 
> Hey, if I remember correctly you are into stoner rock...How about this
> 
> 
> Buffalo Killers - Let It Ride - YouTube



Copied from another thread. Marty had to say this:



> That's what I call different. I'm trying to decide whether I like the harmony vocals. On one hand you can say it is unique and on the other you could say, "No dice."


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Speaking of stoner...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj9IAvv32wE]Sleep - Dragonaut - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Just recorded this with the 2204.. Boosted with the MXR CAE Boost
> 
> drivinrain.mp3



Sounds great, man. Nice and chunky.


----------



## RiverRatt

I dig the stoner stuff, too. I'm bad to get into a mellow mood and come up with some riff or progression and explore it for a half-hour. I had a killer one going one night awhile back and my wife came in the room while I was 1,000 miles away and said something and scared the shit (and the riff) out of me. I never could remember exactly what I was playing. Since I got the Mac hooked up it's fun to just hit record and save those little gems. Sometimes they even sound good the next day.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan I am the same way.. Except when I go off in merry land, I will realize I got something going. Then Start to record and forgot how I was doing it.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

BluesRocker said:


> Just recorded this with the 2204.. Boosted with the MXR CAE Boost
> 
> drivinrain.mp3


 
Good stuff, nice recording


----------



## MartyStrat54

All righty then.


----------



## RiverRatt

Been re-thinking the Raytheon black plate in V2 on the Vintage Modern. I ran it with a smooth plate Tele in V1 and the 1958 Mullard in V2 and the HDR sounded massive. I tried a few combinations and that one made me take notice. Now my ears are ringing like crazy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I use a lot of high gain Electrohome's in V2, especially for metalheads. These are made to the same spec's as an Amperex Bugle Boy, but for a lot less money.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got an Amperex in that bunch of tubes a few weeks ago... I went back and just threw a bunch of the relabeled boxes in a caddy. I opened every box to see what was really inside and I got an Amperex and a Raytheon 12AX7. The Amperex isn't a Bugle Boy. You could just barely make out the word Holland and the letters "Am" printed on the tube. No codes, but it looks Amperex.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok guys.. I have some trivia for ya.. I just recorded this. And I wanna see if you all can guess what I am using in the recording..

Amps to choose from:
Egnater Tweaker w/ 1966 cab
Blackheart Little Giant with BH112 Cab
Marshall JCM800 with 1960AX Cab

Guitars
Lace Cybercaster
Gibson LP Standard- Dimarzio pups
Gibson LP Studio- P90 in neck, Angus in Bridge
Epi LP Goldtop- Dimarzio pups
Squier Modded Strat- GFS pups

Delay is from Boss DD6

Guess Blues.mp3


----------



## guitargoalie

egnater with the squier?


----------



## RiverRatt

Studio neck pickup with the Tweaker? It sounds single-coil, whatever it is, and pretty damned good, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

800 and Cybercaster.


----------



## BluesRocker

I will wait a bit before I post the results.. I will be sure to give Scott and Joe a shot at it too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Come on, man. Joe isn't even on and I want to go to bed soon!


----------



## BluesRocker

lol

Fine.... The results




























JCM800- 1960AX

Gisbon Les Paul Standard with Dimarzios


----------



## sccloser

I was going to guess the squier with the 800. 800's can sound pretty clean for blues when you need them to.


----------



## RiverRatt

You had that thing mellowed out. Shows you how much I know! You could have probably pulled off that tone with any of the gear you listed. I really thought it was the P-90. It had a Les Paul vibe to it but I didn't think it sounded like a humbucker.


----------



## sccloser

You must have the tone on those DMZs turned down, and the vol too.


----------



## BluesRocker

I was using the Middle position.. The Neck pup is an Eric Johnson Custom.. It has a reall nice single coil clarity to it.. And blended with the PAF in the bridge, it has a very nice tone


----------



## BluesRocker

sccloser said:


> You must have the tone on those DMZs turned down, and the vol too.



Nope.. Using the Low Input


----------



## RiverRatt

I was thinking of Gilmour's solo on Another Brick in the Wall Pt. 2. He did that with a Les Paul and I think the tone was similar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do I win anything? I was half right.


----------



## BluesRocker

A cookie?


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> I was using the Middle position.. The Neck pup is an Eric Johnson Custom.. It has a reall nice single coil clarity to it.. And blended with the PAF in the bridge, it has a very nice tone



Weird. I was playing my Paul through the VM earlier and was using both pickups with the tone rolled off on the neck. I've never tried to achieve Tom Scholz' tone but it was happening.


----------



## BluesRocker

Both Volumes were on 10 and tones on 10..


----------



## RiverRatt

I still think a Les Paul with a good set of pickups is the ultimate guitar, and I probably always will. It can cover so much ground with some creative use of the pickup selector and the tone controls. I've got a nice Tele and a nice Strat, but if I'm taking one guitar, it's going to be the Les Paul.


----------



## sccloser

I was playing my new, old and now new again to me 1985 LP std yesterday through the mkiii with the gain down to about 2, master up to about 4, both pups with tone rolled down to about 7 on each knob and got a pretty sweet sound. 

Got a good sound with the C5 with the same guitar settings.


----------



## BluesRocker

I agree.. Thats why I like having the EJ in the neck.. It gives it a great Single coil sound..But it is a tad bit beefier.. Then the bridge is pure LP Vintage tone


----------



## sccloser

I had one of those studio mkiii lp's once with the h-s-h pup combo, 5 position switch and coil tap switch. It could cover some sonic ground.


----------



## sccloser

My little Tele could surprise you when you start tweaking the tone knob....


----------



## RiverRatt

I think most of my gear purchases have been mainly to isolate the Les Paul. I can sell off a couple of amps or a couple of guitars if times get really bad, but I'm going to hang on to the Les Paul/Marshall combo until they come and take it away from me.


----------



## BluesRocker

Same here Alan.. My LP and Marshall are going to the grave with me.


SC- A tele is a great weapon to have in an arsenal.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> My little Tele could surprise you when you start tweaking the tone knob....



Yeah, a good Tele is a force to be reckoned with. I like my Strat, but it's my #3 guitar now. I can really get into the Tele or the Les Paul. They work so well with any of my amps. The 1968 Ampeg is pure Keef with either guitar.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, that little Tele even surprised me. A got a story that goes with that....

Once upon a time I had a really beat (really, really beat) 1953 LP Goldtop that was barely even playable. I got it from a guy who stored it in his attic for over 26 years! Anyway, I sold it for Ca$h and trade, in which one of the many items I got was a 1992 '59 Burst reissue. I later (because of insanity I guess) traded that burst for a NOS 2006 PRS Custom 22, birds in flight inlays, cherry red finish, 10 top, trem, the works basically (priced over $2200) and a 1999 US Tele. I was going to sell the Tele off for cash to give to a family member having a problem, and keep the PRS. Well, after a few days I was very impressed with the Tele but not so enamored with the PRS (just was not me...I gotta be me, you know?) So the tele stayed.
I was playing a show last year and I took 3 guitars...my SG, my strat and my tele. SG is always great and is my main gigging guitar. But the strat sounded like crap at sound checks. The tele sounded good at sound checks. So, every song that I was supposed to change to the strat, I waived off the guitar tech (fancy way of saying our buddy who helps out and comes to all the shows...) and kept the sg or either signaled for the Tele. The Tele just ripped that night! I was so impressed with how it sounded on stage, and then when I saw the video I was amazed. That Tele is just awesome. It roared trough my 2205! It cut through the mix. And when it was my turn to play a lead on a Clapton song (we did 2) it flat out oozed tone! It really made me sound good that night. And it has earned its way onto my keeper list.


That's my tele story.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think Tele's and Les Pauls are close cousins. I can cover a lot of the same ground with either guitar. I like to boost the Tele with a TS9 to get into humbucker territory but both are my favorite tone machines.


----------



## sccloser

Oh, I traded that strat for a really ice, high dollar Carvin guitar that I swapped a couple of months later for my mkiii and 1960ax cab. 

Yeah, they call me the Forest Gump of gear...


----------



## sccloser

First time I noticed that a Tele could really rip was back around the late 90's. I had a Boogie mkii head I was playing with a bit back then on a jcm800 4x12 cab. I plugged my 1973 Tele into it (yet another guitar that is now long gone...) and just scorched the place! I had not realized it until then, but a Tele could be pretty mean with the right amp and a little attitude.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Tele just sounds thicker than the Strat and feels more natural to me. I've always bounced back and forth between the Tele's and the LP but I've got a pretty nice setup now with both guitars. It's amazing to me that a MIM Tele can actually battle my R8 LP for my #1 spot. My Strat hasn't been out of its case since I played a gig with it in June. I got the Tele from BluesRocker right after that. I've played the shit out of that guitar. Definitely worth the trade!


----------



## solarburn

I don't know man. I listened to the clip and all I can say is I feel like I smoked a bowl and now I have the munchies...

YEAH Mon!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd like to feel like I just smoked a bowl... see you guys tomorrow!


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is a thread about the Tele right now on the forum. My input was that there are many versions of a Tele. In its pure form, it is an S-S guitar. However, my favorite is the 62 Reissue with the Strat neck and six point bridge. It comes with two very hot humbuckers. This sort of Tele will give any Les Paul a run for the money.

Again, it all depends on what sort of Tele you are talking about. I have a 2008 AM Standard Tele in Blizzard Pearl. It is an S-S guitar.


----------



## BluesRocker

2204 Cranked to 8!!!!!!

Holy shit I was cracking windows!

800cranked.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I liked the tone from last night's better. I can't record a really loud amp. It never has the balls on the recording that it does in person. I've been looking at one of those Sennheiser E609 mics for home recording - judging from the reviews they may be what I'm needing. My SM57 and SM58 are probably 20 years old.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well I think I overloaded the input a bit. I should have turned the gain down a bit.. I recorded my SLP on 10 and it came out great.. I think the poor sound was due to my dumbass


----------



## RiverRatt

It's harder than you'd think. It's all about figuring out what records well. I've got the VM belting out some righteous tone but when I record it, it sounds like playing through a muddy little solid-state practice amp. I haven't done anything I'm proud of in awhile. 

What I was diggin' about the Sennheiser mic was that you can just drape it over the cabinet and put it right where you want it. I'll probably end up getting one sooner or later.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm still waiting on my cookie. I'll take one of those premium, six-inch round, chocolate chip one's. You can mail it to me.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> It's harder than you'd think. It's all about figuring out what records well. I've got the VM belting out some righteous tone but when I record it, it sounds like playing through a muddy little solid-state practice amp. I haven't done anything I'm proud of in awhile.
> 
> What I was diggin' about the Sennheiser mic was that you can just drape it over the cabinet and put it right where you want it. I'll probably end up getting one sooner or later.



I made a mic stand out of a broken guitar stand.. lol


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm still waiting on my cookie. I'll take one of those premium, six-inch round, chocolate chip one's. You can mail it to me.



Well.. If I mail it, it may go stale.. Dont want ya eatin a hard cookie.. You may chip out one of your dentures..   jk


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm hipper than that. I gotz grillz. They'll chomp up an old hard cookie.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Well.. If I mail it, it may go stale.. Dont want ya eatin a hard cookie.. You may chip out one of your dentures..   jk



Ever heard of MILK?


----------



## BluesRocker




----------



## MartyStrat54

I had a dream where Rockin' Lisa sent Joe a PM telling him she got married.

I wonder what ever happened to her.


----------



## solarburn

Man she up and left us...

I guess there are better men then us out there but I can't imagine wanting better. After all we took good care of her here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I still think she will show up sooner or later. That last dry spell was due to a guy as well. Of course, I could always email her (which I got when I sold her the tubes).


----------



## solarburn

Could be man. Really I hope she is well. Be cool if she dropt in to say hey. She rocks a 2204 and DSL. Very cool!


----------



## RiverRatt

If you were a chick, would you hang out here? 

Check this out. I never knew that "female owned" was a selling point for a guitar.

Ibanez Gio Electric Guitar


----------



## solarburn

Is he implying that "female" owned means its been babied? I don't know...there are some rough girls out there.

Man I bought this guitar and it was "female" owned. You can still smell her perfume! 

Luckee!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> If you were a chick, would you hang out here?



Ain't that the truth. We have 0 female participation at this point. If Lisa came back, it would be like throwing meat to a pack of dogs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh drat! I've been practicing for six weeks and I still can't make a B7 chord. Time to sell my guitar. (And it's a junker at that.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Joe!!! Wassup?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ain't that the truth. We have 0 female participation at this point. If Lisa came back, it would be like throwing meat to a pack of dogs.



Hahahaha! No shit man. Oh the carnage...


----------



## solarburn

Hey Martimus! Jus seen JL died. Looks like he sucummed to miseries oblivion. Not a fan of his stuff. Sad to see the family left with that. Wish them healing.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ain't that the truth. We have 0 female participation at this point. If Lisa came back, it would be like throwing meat to a pack of dogs.



You would have to keep her safe and away from the hounds here in the Tubes threads Marty!

Hey Joe! 

Where ya been hiding your self???


----------



## solarburn

I been play'n guitar...and school shop'n with the girls.LOL

Good to see ya Scott!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I been play'n guitar...and school shop'n with the girls.LOL
> 
> Good to see ya Scott!



Back at ya Joe! Great to see you too!

Enjoy that while you can man!

I remember kind of dreading the "back to school budget crunch" , but once it's gone it's gone. They grow up so fast man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey Martimus! Jus seen JL died. Looks like he sucummed to miseries oblivion. Not a fan of his stuff. Sad to see the family left with that. Wish them healing.



Yes, I posted over there on that thread. Man, he is 10 years younger than I am.
Hard to believe his first wife was Bobbi Brown, the PIE girl on Warrants album. She was a hottie, but she didn't have all of her marbles. I see he was married three times and had two kids. I left a link over on that thread about all of his rehab woes. Sort of like the male version of Winehouse. When he was in Warrant, he was on insulin and had to live a pretty straight road life. You know, no drugs or alcohol, but plenty of sex with hot chicks.


----------



## solarburn

I can't believe I'm already in the teens. Its gone fast. They don't want to hang out like we use too. Ahh to have the good ole dayz again when Dad was fun to be with...a sad LOL.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, I posted over there on that thread. Man, he is 10 years younger than I am.
> Hard to believe his first wife was Bobbi Brown, the PIE girl on Warrants album. She was a hottie, but she didn't have all of her marbles. I see he was married three times and had two kids. I left a link over on that thread about all of his rehab woes. Sort of like the male version of Winehouse. When he was in Warrant, he was on insulin and had to live a pretty straight road life. You know, no drugs or alcohol, but plenty of sex with hot chicks.



Just a year older than me. Damn I know a few diabetic alcoholic/drug users that used anywaze. Sober now though. Don't know where he was at with that. Hard to say when the truth is fabricated hehe. I don't know. None of my business. The women must have been sumpt'n. I'm sure that's what I would of OD'd on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I would have been addicted to sniffing panties.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I can't believe I'm already in the teens. Its gone fast. They don't want to hang out like we use too. Ahh to have the good ole dayz again when Dad was fun to be with...a sad LOL.



They will come back around Joe! I hear when they hit 26 or so, we are cool again. Just hang in there!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I would have been addicted to sniffing panties.



I still am, and probably always will be addicted to sniffing panties.


----------



## solarburn

Mmm...panties.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn!!! 2 AM CST. I need to go to bed. Night JOE, SCOTT, ALAN and CODY.


----------



## solarburn

Lator big Gator!


----------



## sccloser

The tube threads are haunted by night owls.....


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> The tube threads are haunted by night owls.....



Or is it the night owls are haunted by tube threads?


----------



## sccloser

Can't sleep....tubes...tubes....tooooooooooooobs!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Can't sleep....tubes...tubes....tooooooooooooobs!!!!!!!!!!!





Yep! It's bottles of warm milk for some, for us it's warm bottles of hot gas with cathodes and anodes!!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys!

I am thinking of grabbing a tube tester. 

Any brands / models I should stay away form? Any recommendations on a model or source?


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the B&K 707 that I picked up, and Marty's been using one for years. Matt just got one awhile back, too. If you plan to test a lot of 12AX7's and twin-triodes, the B&K is super-fast. Most testers you have to set up for each triode test. I read a cool comparison between checking a 12AX7 on a Hickok and a B&K... there were something like 20 settings involved in checking both triodes on the Hickok. The B&K all you do is set the heater voltage, sensitivity, and four rotary controls and you're ready to go. The B&K 747 is the more modern solid-state version of the 707. There are a few tweaks that the 707 needs but it's way less complicated than a Hickok.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I like the B&K 707 that I picked up, and Marty's been using one for years. Matt just got one awhile back, too. If you plan to test a lot of 12AX7's and twin-triodes, the B&K is super-fast. Most testers you have to set up for each triode test. I read a cool comparison between checking a 12AX7 on a Hickok and a B&K... there were something like 20 settings involved in checking both triodes on the Hickok. The B&K all you do is set the heater voltage, sensitivity, and four rotary controls and you're ready to go. The B&K 747 is the more modern solid-state version of the 707. There are a few tweaks that the 707 needs but it's way less complicated than a Hickok.



Thanks Alan!

I have been watching this Hickok 799. It's got a solid state rectifier, which sounds like a bit less work.

Hickok 799 Solid State Tube Tester Working & Calibrated - eBay (item 290597060712 end time Aug-14-11 18:18:48 PDT)

Thee are a couple of 707's up right now too. 

Other than the ones they used to have in the stores (I know I'm dating my self a bit) I have only used a Hickok that a buddy owns.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Alan,

Can you check EL-34's (6ca7') on the 707????


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it'll check everything except the really old big pin tubes. Some tubes are only checked for emissions, but just about any common guitar amp tubes are mutual conductance.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, it'll check everything except the really old big pin tubes. Some tubes are only checked for emissions, but just about any common guitar amp tubes are mutual conductance.



Thanks my friend! 

So would you go with the B&K 707 over the Hickok 799?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Daystrom Weston CA-1630 Electron Tube Analyzer

Here are some others.

tubetesters


----------



## RiverRatt

I've never owned a Hickok. They are excellent testers when they are calibrated and pretty much set the standard for the other guys to follow. I've got 5 testers right now and the B&K is the only one worth a damn. 

I was looking at a Hickok 6000 earlier but the guy said it wasn't reading right and was probably an easy fix. That could translate into spending anywhere from $200 to $500 to get it working right. I can follow the B&K calibration instructions and do all of them safely. There's one calibration test that calls for a VTVM meter but otherwise you can pull them off with any decent meter and a handful of resistors. There are 3 electrolytics in the B&K to replace and I'm putting a SS rectifier in place of the #83 that has to be about shot by now. Solder the voltage regulator lamps to their sockets and you're in business.

Check out this page for B&K 707 info.

TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks my friend!
> 
> So would you go with the B&K 707 over the Hickok 799?



If you get a tester Scott I'm sending tubes to you to test. I pay for shipping. You be'n next door the turn around would be quick.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Cry* *Sniff* *Sniff* [As Marty looses a friend.]


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> If you get a tester Scott I'm sending tubes to you to test. I pay for shipping. You be'n next door the turn around would be quick.



You got it Joe!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Daystrom Weston CA-1630 Electron Tube Analyzer
> 
> Here are some others.
> 
> tubetesters



WOW 4 GRAND! It had better give blow jobs for that much money!!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Daystrom Weston CA-1630 Electron Tube Analyzer



That's insane. You'd have to be doing some serious volume to need that machine. Maybe if I find a factory sealed carton of Telefunken ECC803S tubes I'll pick up one of those.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I've never owned a Hickok. They are excellent testers when they are calibrated and pretty much set the standard for the other guys to follow. I've got 5 testers right now and the B&K is the only one worth a damn.
> 
> I was looking at a Hickok 6000 earlier but the guy said it wasn't reading right and was probably an easy fix. That could translate into spending anywhere from $200 to $500 to get it working right. I can follow the B&K calibration instructions and do all of them safely. There's one calibration test that calls for a VTVM meter but otherwise you can pull them off with any decent meter and a handful of resistors. There are 3 electrolytics in the B&K to replace and I'm putting a SS rectifier in place of the #83 that has to be about shot by now. Solder the voltage regulator lamps to their sockets and you're in business.
> 
> Check out this page for B&K 707 info.
> 
> TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester



THANK YOU AGAIN ALAN! Great article.

Sounds like for ease of use the B&K 707 is the winner! 

There a couple up on fleabay right now. I'll let you know how I come out


----------



## BluesRocker

Relaxing tonight guys... Some great relaxing music..

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIwYGZlBw9Y]Ry Cooder - Feelin' Bad Blues - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Daystrom Weston CA-1630 Electron Tube Analyzer

What? No comments on this $5000 tester. I threw it up there for some laughs.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Cry* *Sniff* *Sniff* [As Marty looses a friend.]



You know you're my #1. Besides when I buy them from you they are already tested. I'm talking any I get elsewhere.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Relaxing tonight guys... Some great relaxing music..
> 
> Ry Cooder - Feelin' Bad Blues - YouTube



I started listening to Ry when i found out he did the parts in "Crossroads" the movie with Danny Machio wanting to be a blues player and he was already a Julliard prodigy playing classical guitar. Steve Vai plays the Devil's guitar player that chopped heads for him and gained him souls.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I started listening to Ry when i found out he did the parts in "Cross Roads" the movie with Danny Machio wanting to be a blues player and he was already a Julliard prodigy playing classical guitar. Steve Vai plays the Devil's guitar player that chopped heads for him and gained him souls.



I know that movie all too well.. I can cite it word for word.. 

One of my Fav parts

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdXk1n6Tm3c&feature=related]Crossroads "Call me Willie" 1986 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Daystrom Weston CA-1630 Electron Tube Analyzer
> 
> What? No comments on this $5000 tester. I threw it up there for some laughs.



They're there Marty! You dont think we would let you get away without some funn'n on that one did ya!


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> I know that movie all too well.. I can cite it word for word..
> 
> One of my Fav parts
> 
> Crossroads "Call me Willie" 1986 - YouTube



Steve Via did all the classic parts. When I met him I asked him "what was it like losing to Ry Cooder in Cross Roads", he said, "actually, I had to lose to my self in that clip".


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, the ending guitar solo was all Vai.. The part where the girl leaves and he sits and plays is Ry Cooder...

This Part (which is the song "Feelin' Bad Blues"

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfH_bikDZS4&feature=related]CrossRoads Slide Guitar - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

I have the guitar duel from the movie on my MP3 player. Never get tired of it when it pops up randomly.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Steve Via did all the classic parts. When I met him I asked him "what was it like losing to Ry Cooder in Cross Roads", he said, "actually, I had to lose to my self in that clip".



Yeah. I don't see Ry whip'n that out.


----------



## BluesRocker

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atw6F47UCYM]Steve Vai - Full CrossRoads Guitar Duel - YouTube[/ame]

Just proves the Bluesman kills the Shredders.. 

lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

About that CROSSROADS movie. Joe posted the "DUEL" video a while back and I thought, "Man Vai is smoking." I still gave my vote to Vai. What a sound. Now if he had played this, it would have been no contest.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY8wyKuLY2k&feature=related]Steve Vai - "I Know You're Here" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Unreal...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Funny thing is I was unaware of the movie and never saw it.


----------



## BluesRocker

I'm not liking his tone cause he doesnt have his fan on.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGqTcP9b_LI&feature=related]Steve Vai - Little Wing - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Funny thing is I was unaware of the movie and never saw it.



I have it in VHS and it warbles throughout from being played so much. I tried to find it in DVD and couldn't.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I have it in VHS and it warbles throughout from being played so much. I tried to find it in DVD and couldn't.



It took me 4 years to find it on DVD... But I got it.. And I made a copy of it just in case


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> It took me 4 years to find it on DVD... But I got it.. And I made a copy of it just in case



I looked all over and gave up. I believe it took you 4yrs. Its not readily available.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I'm still #1!!!*


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I looked all over and gave up. I believe it took you 4yrs. Its not readily available.



I found it at FYE.. I had to pay out the butt for it too


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> It took me 4 years to find it on DVD... But I got it.. And I made a copy of it just in case



This is what i did with my mint cd's of Badlands. I wear the copies out so all I have to do is make new ones when they are done. Its not if I wear them out but when.LOL


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *I'm still #1!!!*



"Make it so #1"!

Capt'n Piccard...hehe. His head is sooo shiny.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This is what i did with my mint cd's of Badlands. I wear the copies out so all I have to do is make new ones when they are done. Its not if I wear them out but when.LOL



I wish I would have done that with all my ACDC CDs. I had EVERY cd they made. Including bootlegs.. I had the rare, Austrailian release of TNT. (their first album produced, was released in 75 I think). Sadly they all got stolen in FL


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I wish I would have done that with all my ACDC CDs. I had EVERY cd they made. Including bootlegs.. I had the rare, Austrailian release of TNT. (their first album produced, was released in 75 I think). Sadly they all got stolen in FL



That sux hard. Hopefully Karma will take care of that one.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, that was prolly about 10 years ago.. Give or take a bit.. I have all their stuff on my computer now. But it just isnt the same..


----------



## MartyStrat54

So, CROSSROADS must have been a bomb at the box office.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know how you feel Cody. My sister Linda and I had a bunch of classic vinyl stored down at my dad's shop and it got broken into and a bunch of the albums got stolen. I had a huge AC/DC collection that was taken. It still makes me ill to think about it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah being around 14/15 years old and losing all your investments of CDs on vacation really sucks.. Cause the ride home was loooong


----------



## solarburn

Yeah that is sickening.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well, I am gonna hop off here for the night. Ashley is on her way to help me finish packing up to move.. Which I will say we will get started and then get busy doing something else on the dryer, couch, floor or whatever is near.. 

Night guys


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Unreal...



Wow............I dont know weather to be inspired to play, or quit. 

Man, he is a ham though. His face at 3:39, thats some funny stuff!


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Well, I am gonna hop off here for the night. Ashley is on her way to help me finish packing up to move.. Which I will say we will get started and then get busy doing something else on the dryer, couch, floor or whatever is near..
> 
> Night guys



Have fun Cody! Be sure that washer is on the spin cycle and a little out of balance !


----------



## solarburn

hahaha! Good times man.

Well I better go too. I've got some run'n to do before work. Its my Monday. Yuck!(with an "F")


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> hahaha! Good times man.
> 
> Well I better go too. I've got some run'n to do before work. Its my Monday. Yuck!(with an "F")



Have a good night Joe! 

I'm off too. Have'n cocktails with my Brother and Sister in-law.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...lonely. I'm Mr. Lonely.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...lonely. I'm Mr. Lonely.



Sorry Marty!!!! I may be back in time to catch you later! 

But if not, have a good night my friend!


----------



## MM54

I'm here (for a little bit at least, waiting for the computer to finish up some stuff)


----------



## RiverRatt

I had to go out today and replace the mailbox my daughter took out in her little accident last night, then I had to go get my dad's John Deere mower and cut our grass because our mower hasn't worked all summer. I played for an hour or so this evening and then got out the tequila. I can feel Monday creeping up on me and I don't think Sunday is going to be long enough to recuperate. Tryin' to enjoy what's left of the weekend. Looks like everybody's gone for the evening already. One more glass and I'm turning in. Anybody still here?


----------



## sccloser

I'm still here for now....


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'm about to turn in. My eyes are scratchy and I feel like I've inhaled a ton on dust. I can't wait for winter when this f'in grass dies and I don't have to mess with it for a few months.


----------



## sccloser

I quit fertilizing my lawn about two years ago and it has saved me a lot of mowing. And it still looks decent.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I had to go out today and replace the mailbox my daughter took out in her little accident last night, then I had to go get my dad's John Deere mower and cut our grass because our mower hasn't worked all summer. I played for an hour or so this evening and then got out the tequila. I can feel Monday creeping up on me and I don't think Sunday is going to be long enough to recuperate. Tryin' to enjoy what's left of the weekend. Looks like everybody's gone for the evening already. One more glass and I'm turning in. Anybody still here?



Sorry Alan. Kids = work! 

I have a 19 girl and and a 20 year old son, and in some respects they are more work now then when the were younger. I hate that "Monday is creeping up on me" feeling too my friend. Especially when it comes on a Saturday night. It seems like sometimes I spend the majority of my free time taking care of things that others benefit from more than I do, when I just want to spend some quality "Scott time" to get my head right. 

I guess it is what it is.....hang in man! Have a good night and sleep well.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys, anybody out there?????

I lost the first 707, it jumped to $225.00 in a hurry. There is one that needs repair coming up in a bit. I am confident that I can get it working again. How much do you thing it's worth????

B&K Dyna-Jet 707 Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tube Tester - eBay (item 290597058697 end time Aug-14-11 18:13:07 PDT)


----------



## MM54

I got mine for under $200, in 'working condition.' It needed a little work to be 'fully functional' but it did indeed work as-is when it arrived (just not very well )


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys, anybody out there?????
> 
> I lost the first 707, it jumped to $225.00 in a hurry. There is one that needs repair coming up in a bit. I am confident that I can get it working again. How much do you thing it's worth????
> 
> B&K Dyna-Jet 707 Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tube Tester - eBay (item 290597058697 end time Aug-14-11 18:13:07 PDT)



Win it? Yes, no?


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys, anybody out there?????
> 
> I lost the first 707, it jumped to $225.00 in a hurry. There is one that needs repair coming up in a bit. I am confident that I can get it working again. How much do you thing it's worth????
> 
> B&K Dyna-Jet 707 Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tube Tester - eBay (item 290597058697 end time Aug-14-11 18:13:07 PDT)



I got mine for free, so I'm not sure what a fair price is.  

The needle wiggle that he's talking about could be the 200mF electrolytic on the meter. Mine was vibrating like a tuning fork until I replaced that. The two #55 ALV bulbs are in bayonet sockets and their connection isn't great. That can cause the meter to fluctuate and for test scores to be impossible to repeat until they are soldered in place. If the meter and all the pots are good, it shouldn't take a great deal to get it going again. I bought a SS replacement rectifier on eBay for under $20. The other tube is a 6BN8. Mine already had a spare inside the case. I've got to get a True RMS multimeter to finish setting mine up. The page I gave you the link to has many more calibration tests than the B&K calibration sheet I found.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Win it? Yes, no?



Hey Marty,

I lost the first one. Someone out sniped me in the final seconds. But the one in that link closes in about 3 hours. My concern is that he says,

"THIS IS IN FAIRLY GOOD LOOKING CONDITION. EXCEPT SOME SCUFFS AND SCRAPES MOSTLY ON THE BOTTOM OF THE CASE. PLUGGED IT IN AND IT TURNS ON BUT WHEN I TRIED TO TEST A TUBE THE METER STARTS TO GO UP THE SCALE BUT WIGGLES BACK AND FORTH AS IT GOES. SO I FIGURE AT THE VERY LEAST IT NEEDS A NEW RECTIFIER TUBE INSTALLED. IT MAY NEED MORE. SOLD AS-IS.. NEEDS REPAIR.."

I am sure I could get it working again, they dont seem that complex (just the spaghetti factor) I'm just not sure how high to bid on a tester that I am going to have to work on? There is a completely referbed version for $399.00, so I am guessing I should stop at 150.00 for something that needs work.

What do you think????


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I got mine for free, so I'm not sure what a fair price is.
> 
> The needle wiggle that he's talking about could be the 200mF electrolytic on the meter. Mine was vibrating like a tuning fork until I replaced that. The two #55 ALV bulbs are in bayonet sockets and their connection isn't great. That can cause the meter to fluctuate and for test scores to be impossible to repeat until they are soldered in place. If the meter and all the pots are good, it shouldn't take a great deal to get it going again. I bought a SS replacement rectifier on eBay for under $20. The other tube is a 6BN8. Mine already had a spare inside the case. I've got to get a True RMS multimeter to finish setting mine up. The page I gave you the link to has many more calibration tests than the B&K calibration sheet I found.



Thanks Alan, 

I figured it would be a simple fix. Again, I am just not sure on how high to bid? I have no frame of reference on these. How often do they come up, how much they sell for etc???


----------



## RiverRatt

As long as the meter works well and all the rotary switches are turning it should be worth $150. The test switch bank is a little touchy. I cleaned mine with a lubricating contact cleaner BEFORE I learned that you aren't supposed to do that. Control D was frozen on mine as well which is strange because that's the control you have to rotate to test for shorts. It took most of a can of cleaner to get it moving again. Use a residue-free cleaner on everything but the rotary switches and you won't make the same mistake I made. You're gonna do 90% of your tests on sockets 8 and 29 so plan on getting at least one nine-pin and one octal socket saver.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yikes! I just noticed that the shipping is $47.89! That seems excessive.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Yikes! I just noticed that the shipping is $47.89! That seems excessive.



Thanks again for the tips Alan! 

I noticed this on just about all of them! The one that close this morning was $35.00. 

I will try to cap it at $125.00 or so (I hope no snipers are reading this!) If it goes over that I may wait for the one that closes on Thursday

Vintage B and K Dyna Jet Model 707 Tube Tester - eBay (item 290598441529 end time Aug-17-11 16:24:20 PDT)

Oh yea, but he wants $74.40 for shipping ! But you can elect for standard at $26.76. What are people thinking!!

Thanks again Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

No prob.

I feel like going to bed already! I changed my blood pressure meds a couple of weeks ago. I feel 10 times better now and I've lost 15 lbs, so to celebrate I grilled steaks and we had potatoes and I downed a few beers, what my son calls "man food". It was damned good after salads and chicken for 2 weeks! BURP!!! Plus, the f'in heat wave broke this afternoon. It's down in the 70's with a nice breeze blowing out of the north. If my daughter hadn't wiped out my car Friday night, this would have been a great weekend! I'd go fire up the Marshall but I feel content just to sit for awhile and enjoy what's left of it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> No prob.
> 
> I feel like going to bed already! I changed my blood pressure meds a couple of weeks ago. I feel 10 times better now and I've lost 15 lbs, so to celebrate I grilled steaks and we had potatoes and I downed a few beers, what my son calls "man food". It was damned good after salads and chicken for 2 weeks! BURP!!! Plus, the f'in heat wave broke this afternoon. It's down in the 70's with a nice breeze blowing out of the north. If my daughter hadn't wiped out my car Friday night, this would have been a great weekend! I'd go fire up the Marshall but I feel content just to sit for awhile and enjoy what's left of it.



Nice Alan! I am glad your weekend turned the corner so to speak, and that your BP is back on track my friend!

We are doing burgers and I am on my 2nd beer. Life is good. 

Well I lost the 2nd B&K 707. It went for $152.50 + 31.00, so $183.50 for a broken meter. Too much in my book, at least right now. There are a couple more that come up this week. And one that is re-ferbed and calibrated for 399.00. 

Hey, do you know anything about the B&K 700? There is one coming up that looks almost new.

Enjoy the rest of the evening Alan!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey, do you know anything about the B&K 700? There is one coming up that looks almost new.



The 700 is almost the same as the 707. It will test any guitar tube and most TV and radio tubes. It uses an #83 rec tube and a 6BN8 just like the 707. Try to get it if the bidding is reasonable.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 700 is almost the same as the 707. It will test any guitar tube and most TV and radio tubes. It uses an #83 rec tube and a 6BN8 just like the 707. Try to get it if the bidding is reasonable.



Thanks Marty!!!!!! 

This thing is really clean! 

B&K Dyna-Jet 700 Dynamic Mutual Conductance Tube Tester - eBay (item 120763990962 end time Aug-17-11 13:33:52 PDT)


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey I was doing some recording and trying for an Alex Lifeson tone. It came out much heavier than I intended when I tried to record it so I did a little clip. This is just something I pulled out of my ass. It's the Les Paul into a Boss Mega Overdrive and GE-7 with just the 800 band boosted, into a Rocktron Chorus split into the VM and Ampeg. The mic on the Ampeg is about shot. I had to boost it a bunch to get the level up to the Marshall. This is just the raw recording. I recorded it louder than usual which may be why it's more distorted sounding than it actually was. The Vintage Modern is where the heavy bottom is coming from. Still running the Telefunken in V1 and the Mullard in V2.

heavy2.mp3


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Hey I was doing some recording and trying for an Alex Lifeson tone. It came out much heavier than I intended when I tried to record it so I did a little clip. This is just something I pulled out of my ass. It's the Les Paul into a Boss Mega Overdrive and GE-7 with just the 800 band boosted, into a Rocktron Chorus split into the VM and Ampeg. The mic on the Ampeg is about shot. I had to boost it a bunch to get the level up to the Marshall. This is just the raw recording. I recorded it louder than usual which may be why it's more distorted sounding than it actually was. The Vintage Modern is where the heavy bottom is coming from. Still running the Telefunken in V1 and the Mullard in V2.
> 
> heavy2.mp3



Nice man!!! Great harmonic distortion / feedback towards the end there!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that was the Ampeg doing the weird oscillating feedback thing. I was practically on top of it. I gotta get a bigger space.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I think that was the Ampeg doing the weird oscillating feedback thing. I was practically on top of it. I gotta get a bigger space.



Small spaces (especially with wood floors and a window or two for some high end slap back) are great for recording a mono-e-mono recording! Unless you want a more ambient kind of thing. But thats easy to add with a decent delay / reverb.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

So I keep getting hosed on the testers! One came up for 180.00 + 25.00 shipping that needed a calibration and it was gone like that!

This is what I am thinking....

1) These are selling for high $200 to low $300 inconstantly. 
2) All but one so far has needed at least a calibration, if not a fairly major overhaul. 
3) Shipping has been anywhere from $25.00 to $75.00

Marty's guy in Washington has one listed that has been completely gone over for 399.00 + $11.00 shipping (see below) that looks almost new. By the time I get one used, buy the parts, calibrate it or have Marty's guy calibrate it, I am at almost the same price ($399.00). I may just go all out and get the ready to go unit. What do you think???

From his description..............

B&K 707 tube tester in very good condition 

"The B&K 707 is the ultimate professional-grade tester for any user that values his or her time and appreciates convenience. This tester has been calibrated and cleaned. This is what was done: Cleaned all switches and tube sockets with Dexoit contact cleaner; Replaced all electrolytic capacitors; Checked all voltages and bridge resistors; Made all service adjustments according to B&K standards; Adjusted operation of short detection and leakage circuitry, grid emission, signal voltage, DC Bias balance and balance control. The 83 tube rectifier has been replaced with a solid state rectifier and both GE55 have been replaced. Cleaned case and front panel.Tester comes with copy of the Instruction Manual and Tube Chart.

Features a clever voltage control circuit that eliminates the need to constantly set the AC line level to insure accurate tests, regardless of line voltage variations. Has sockets for most late model hifi tubes, including compactrons, novar, duodecal, and Nuvistors. Dyna Jet System, where many popular tubes can be tested by just setting two dials. Dual section tubes can be checked with just two pushbuttons. Sensitive grid leakage and shorts read on the meter and on a neon lamp, indicating grid emissions, internal shorts, or gas. Life-test pushbutton, which will indicate on the meter, gives indication of relative good use left in a tube.


----------



## MM54

I have less than $40 in mine and it needed work and (naturally) calibration when I got it, I wouldn't go for the $400 tester (unless you really really want to spend $400 on a tube tester). I went through several auctions before I managed to score mine.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm still waiting for a Fluke meter to calibrate mine with. I can't shell out $150 for one right now and there's not many alternatives. If I'm going to have to get one, I'd might as well wait until I can do it right. Anybody wanna trade a Fluke for a nice collection of toobz?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> I have less than $40 in mine and it needed work and (naturally) calibration when I got it, I wouldn't go for the $400 tester (unless you really really want to spend $400 on a tube tester). I went through several auctions before I managed to score mine.



Hey MM,

So you got your 707 off EBay??? How much did you pay for it???


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe I paid $275 for the last one on EBAY. However, it was in the best condition. The others I had all had worn tube sockets.

Keep in mind that the first 707's came out in 1966. These had an annealed copper top plate. Later, B and K changed over to an aluminum top plate. I believe these were made until 1972, then the 747 solid state tester was available.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I believe I paid $275 for the last one on EBAY. However, it was in the best condition. The others I had all had worn tube sockets.
> 
> Keep in mind that the first 707's came out in 1966. These had an annealed copper top plate. Later, B and K changed over to an aluminum top plate. I believe these were made until 1972, then the 747 solid state tester was available.



Thanks Marty! 

Everything I am seeing is the newer aluminum faceplate. That 700 is up to $105.00 with two days left to go. 


The one listed from that guy in Woodland Washington (the same guy that calibrated yours I believe) is incredibly clean. I understand what Matt is saying, but they seem to be fetching at least 250.00 in need of work. $400.00 seems a bit steep.


----------



## BluesRocker

I would love to have a tester.. But I dont do enough rolling to keep one.. Plus I keep Marty in business.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> I would love to have a tester.. But I dont do enough rolling to keep one.. Plus I keep Marty in business.



I have close to 300 preamp tubes that I have amassed, and thats not counting the power tubes and rectifiers. I figure I can sell the ones that are worth something if I can test them. I dont trust putting them in a customer / friends head with out testing them either. So right now I am only installing CP tubes in re-tube jobs to keep returns down. If I had a tester, I could up charge for NOS.


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey MM,
> 
> So you got your 707 off EBay??? How much did you pay for it???



I got it from ebay a while ago, just under $200. It was the third or fourth one I bid on, so your search seems to be going similar to mine.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I dont have that many tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

I've wanted a tester since I started tube rolling with my little handful of RCA and GE 12AX7's. I'm obsessed


----------



## MM54

I got my first tester along with my first little shoebox of tubes  I still have it, a Jackson 598.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> I got it from ebay a while ago, just under $200. It was the third or fourth one I bid on, so your search seems to be going similar to mine.



Yep, sounds like it Matt.

I am kicking my self now for letting that first one go for $155.00. 

I did find another on rebuilt for $350.00, but damn that still seems like a lot of money.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is the Jackson an emissions tester? From what I've read they made some good stuff.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Yeah I dont have that many tubes



This is just what I have not had time to got through.






Most of these are oddballs. But I did find a Mullard 10MM Gold pin 12ax7 in one of these boxes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Is the Jackson an emissions tester? From what I've read they made some good stuff.



The meter is labeled something like "Dynamic Conductance" and it's got a lot of fancy wording on the instruction sheet, but I'm pretty sure it's just emissions. It's a good tester, I'll give it that. Plus it can do old 4- 5- and 7-pin tubes as well as B7G, Noval, Octal, and Loctal (Ah, loctal tubes, such a novelty )


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll probably hang on to my little Sencore Mighty Mite. It's a nice emissions/shorts tester. I need to fix the 9-pin socket as is to be expected. For some reason, the emissions side of my B&K reads shorts on just about any tube tested in it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> This is just what I have not had time to got through.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of these are oddballs. But I did find a Mullard 10MM Gold pin 12ax7 in one of these boxes.



I had a hefty bag like that. I found two Mullard GZ34's in it and a few 6BQ5's. I gave the rest away. I've got hundreds of useless tubes still lying around. They've been gone through time and again and unless you're fixing an old TV they are worthless.


----------



## MM54

Sure there's not a short in one of the sockets somewhere that the jiggling of the pins going in/out is kicking on and off?

Also a lot of tubes will show "shorts" that are normal, the tube manual will tell you what ones.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I had a hefty bag like that. I found two Mullard GZ34's in it and a few 6BQ5's. I gave the rest away. I've got hundreds of useless tubes still lying around. They've been gone through time and again and unless you're fixing an old TV they are worthless.



I have a bunch of tubes like that as well, but I like it  I like having a large collection (which is usually growing) of tubes. Some day they have to be worth something (like $2 or more!!)


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I had a hefty bag like that. I found two Mullard GZ34's in it and a few 6BQ5's. I gave the rest away. I've got hundreds of useless tubes still lying around. They've been gone through time and again and unless you're fixing an old TV they are worthless.



I paid $60 for three boxes of tubes. The Mullard (If I can test it, and it's strong) could sell for $150.00 by it's self. I also found 20 or so 12at7 and 12au7's that all test good in my amps. I just done have any use for them. 

I think if I remember correctly, I found quite few 6bq5's in there. What are they good for Alan?


----------



## MM54

marshall mann said:


> i paid $60 for three boxes of tubes. The mullard (if i can test it, and it's strong) could sell for $150.00 by it's self. I also found 20 or so 12at7 and 12au7's that all test good in my amps. I just done have any use for them.
> 
> I think if i remember correctly, i found quite few 6bq5's in there. What are they good for alan?



6bq5 = el84


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Sure there's not a short in one of the sockets somewhere that the jiggling of the pins going in/out is kicking on and off?
> 
> Also a lot of tubes will show "shorts" that are normal, the tube manual will tell you what ones.



It's something in the switch bank. The shorts don't have any meter deflection and go off when I press the grid leakage test button. They are on whether or not the Shorts button is depressed. I've calibrated the shorts test using the 1m resistor. 

Is there a simple way to test tubes like 6L6 and 6V6 octals for shorts and emissions on the lower sockets? If you set up for a normal socket 29 test and switch to the lower sockets and use #38 it should be the same, right?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> It's something in the switch bank. The shorts don't have any meter deflection and go off when I press the grid leakage test button. They are on whether or not the Shorts button is depressed. I've calibrated the shorts test using the 1m resistor.
> 
> Is there a simple way to test tubes like 6L6 and 6V6 octals for shorts and emissions on the lower sockets? If you set up for a normal socket 29 test and switch to the lower sockets and use #38 it should be the same, right?



Well I suppose if you knew the right switch settings for the 6L6 and friends you could set it up for testing them, but why?


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> I think if I remember correctly, I found quite few 6bq5's in there. What are they good for Alan?



Like Matt said, they are EL84's. Also look for 7189's. They are the same. A 7189A might be an EL84 as well, but sometimes they have an internal connection to pin 1. They can still sub for an EL84 if the amp socket doesn't have anything on pin 1.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Well I suppose if you knew the right switch settings for the 6L6 and friends you could set it up for testing them, but why?



For troubleshooting. I want to take a tube with no shorts and test it in socket #38 and see if I can figure out where the problem is.


----------



## MM54

I have a 7868 around here somewhere, I think they're good for something


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> For troubleshooting. I want to take a tube with no shorts and test it in socket #38 and see if I can figure out where the problem is.



Well if you can figure out the switch settings to match it up (I don't know what switch corresponds to what element) it makes sense that it would work.


----------



## sccloser

I have an Accurate Tube Tester Model 157. I think it was made around 1963. It was the one my dad used when he worked on electronics in the 60's and 70's. Works well for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Well if you can figure out the switch settings to match it up (I don't know what switch corresponds to what element) it makes sense that it would work.



Controls A and B are the heaters. C is a lockout.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Controls A and B are the heaters. C is a lockout.



And I believe D would be the plate then.

If you can set it up correctly for a 6L6 in the switch section, I don't see why it wouldn't work.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> The one listed from that guy in Woodland Washington (the same guy that calibrated yours I believe) is incredibly clean. I understand what Matt is saying, but they seem to be fetching at least 250.00 in need of work. $400.00 seems a bit steep.



Well the clean up/calibration service is $100. So that would get it up to $350 or $375 if you paid $250/$275 for one. Some of these guys have done the calibration themselves. I decided to go with someone who has done it a lot and has all the test equipment to do it. I feel my tester is as accurate as it can be.


----------



## BluesRocker

I just recorded a nice little blues track for Joe.. He seems to like to relax to my blues.. lol 

Got the 2204 boosted with my Bonamassa Fuzz Face. Sounded pretty good


Hows the tube world going?


----------



## MM54

And just to throw this in there (then I'm heading out for the night).

I've found a "Welding Torch Tip Cleaner" works very well for cleaning tube sockets. There are a bunch of small rods that are abrasive, you can easily pick one the same size as a tube pin and work it in the socket, it's like a very narrow brush or file, but better. Start and finish with contact cleaner and you're golden.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> And just to throw this in there (then I'm heading out for the night).
> 
> I've found a "Welding Torch Tip Cleaner" works very well for cleaning tube sockets. There are a bunch of small rods that are abrasive, you can easily pick one the same size as a tube pin and work it in the socket, it's like a very narrow brush or file, but better. Start and finish with contact cleaner and you're golden.



I've got a set of those. They work as nut files in a pinch. Good tip!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great idea. I used to use them when I welded for a living.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> I just recorded a nice little blues track for Joe.. He seems to like to relax to my blues.. lol
> 
> Got the 2204 boosted with my Bonamassa Fuzz Face. Sounded pretty good
> 
> 
> Hows the tube world going?



The tube world is going great. I got in a little playing time tonight. I'm going to have to re-arrange my amps/computer again. I've got the Marshall on my left side and that ear has tinnitus pretty bad. After awhile it's painful to keep playing. Getting old sucks.

Where's the clip? You mentioned it, ya gotta post it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Oh yea.. Thanks for reminding me.. I tend to forget in my old age.. lol

Joe's Blues.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

Old age my ass. You're still in college. Wait until you are 3 kids in debt then get back to me!


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice playing, BTW.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Old age my ass. You're still in college. Wait until you are 3 kids in debt then get back to me!



Haha! Actually.. I just started college.. Technically I start on Wednesday. I should have all ready graduated about 3 years ago.. lol Oh well.. Better late than never


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Like Matt said, they are EL84's. Also look for 7189's. They are the same. A 7189A might be an EL84 as well, but sometimes they have an internal connection to pin 1. They can still sub for an EL84 if the amp socket doesn't have anything on pin 1.



Thanks guys, guess I should have know that.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's what I keep telling myself, too. My second attempt at college ended at the local 2 year school. The last class I remember attending was Biology. I did a hit of acid in the parking lot about an hour before class and found out that native bird species are hilarious. How in the hell I ended up with a career, wife and family I have no idea.


----------



## BluesRocker

I remember getting high in high school before doing a lab in Chemistry.. Man.. Those Bunsen burners were awesome when you were stoned.. The strikers too..


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the clean up/calibration service is $100. So that would get it up to $350 or $375 if you paid $250/$275 for one. Some of these guys have done the calibration themselves. I decided to go with someone who has done it a lot and has all the test equipment to do it. I feel my tester is as accurate as it can be.



Yea, if I can snag one for $150 or less, it might be worth it. But anything more, and I may as well get one thats out of the box ready. How long did it take to get it back from calibration Marty?

From reading up on it, the calibration doesnt sound like rocket science. Just a little time consuming. But it would be one more thing to do. And thats assuming all of the sockets and switches are in order.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> I remember getting high in high school before doing a lab in Chemistry.. Man.. Those Bunsen burners were awesome when you were stoned.. The strikers too..



My main problem with college was that I can't learn shit from a book. Hands-on, I can figure out how stuff works pretty easily. I did well in chemistry.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I am the same way.. That was why I chose not to do online courses.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He turned it around in about 5 days. When I had a problem with it, he fixed it for free and paid for the return shipping. Real nice guy.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> He turned it around in about 5 days. When I had a problem with it, he fixed it for free and paid for the return shipping. Real nice guy.



Thanks again Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to college 10 years after I had graduated from High School. I owned a Vette and a Les Paul. I got a music scholarship and was a big man on campus. Chicks, chicks and more chicks. Then my second year I got basically engaged to a home town girl. This is the one that moved to Phoenix with me. We dated for five years, got married and was separated one year later. Oh well, I still had fun that first year. I felt like a rock star. This was a two year college and I was on the Dean's Honor Roll all four semesters. Studied hard and partied harder.


----------



## MM54

BluesRocker said:


> I remember getting high in high school before doing a lab in Chemistry.. Man.. Those Bunsen burners were awesome when you were stoned.. The strikers too..



Those are awesome no matter what state you're in 

Especially the strikers


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, see if this makes sense on that shorts test we were talking about. This info is from the TubeSound B&K 707 blog.
TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester

In the lower “Switch” section, the controls are:
*
A & B* = Filament connections
* C *= Lockout switch. This switch will lockout (open) one pin, with the pins being standard RTMA numbered (switch position 1 opens pin 1, switch position 2 opens pin 2, etc.). If no pin needs to be locked out, then position 12 is selected. Typical lockouts are (a) control grid has connection to 2 pins, the higher numbered pin gets locked-out; (b) tubes with additional heater tap, such as 35W4; (c) the Shell pin of metal envelope tubes (often pin 1, example 6SA7).
* D *= Selects the control grid for Emission test and grid leakage test. For diode and rectifier tube sections, ‘D’ selects the Plate pin. Also, Control D is rotated to every position during Shorts testing. Shorts test is automatic at each switch position — there is no need to press the ‘Shorts’ button on the upper panel.

Using our 6L6GC example, I would set the lower panel switches as follows (assuming 6 volt heaters and 63 sensitivity):

A - 2
B - 7
C - 12 (no internal connections to lock out)
D - 5 (for grid leakage and emissions)

The only one I'm not sure about is control D. You said last night that it was probably the plate and that made sense, but the above quote says to select the control grid which IIRC is pin 5 on a 6L6GC? Rotating control D should test (and fail) for shorts between all pins except 2 and 7. Does this sound correct? I don't want to blow up my tester screwing around with the wrong settings.


----------



## Cardiac Tom

Hey all,

Been a long time since I posted here...Hope everyone is well.

Ok, I'm looking to replace my preamp tubes. I use a Marshall JCM900 4100 and I'm not sure if they ever been replaced before...

I play death metal and am very simple...I use no effects other than an EQ in the loop (which I since stopped because of a noise I am getting with it...I know I have an old thread on it somewhere) with a Gibson Explorer...I'm on a budget and I would rather go to a few stores around here to get them...just want to beef up my sound a bit...

Any advice? Overall, I have been happy with my rig, but it is like something is missing...I really don't want to start adding dist. pedals and whatnot unless I really have to. I'm the original owner of the amp (bought it in 91), and I have had power tubes done multiple times (that is due next) but I'm not sure if the preamp tubes have been done. Those I know I can do myself...

I read through some of the threads here and did a search, but it is making my head spin...lol

Thanks in advance!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, see if this makes sense on that shorts test we were talking about. This info is from the TubeSound B&K 707 blog.
> TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester
> 
> In the lower “Switch” section, the controls are:
> *
> A & B* = Filament connections
> * C *= Lockout switch. This switch will lockout (open) one pin, with the pins being standard RTMA numbered (switch position 1 opens pin 1, switch position 2 opens pin 2, etc.). If no pin needs to be locked out, then position 12 is selected. Typical lockouts are (a) control grid has connection to 2 pins, the higher numbered pin gets locked-out; (b) tubes with additional heater tap, such as 35W4; (c) the Shell pin of metal envelope tubes (often pin 1, example 6SA7).
> * D *= Selects the control grid for Emission test and grid leakage test. For diode and rectifier tube sections, ‘D’ selects the Plate pin. Also, Control D is rotated to every position during Shorts testing. Shorts test is automatic at each switch position — there is no need to press the ‘Shorts’ button on the upper panel.
> 
> Using our 6L6GC example, I would set the lower panel switches as follows (assuming 6 volt heaters and 63 sensitivity):
> 
> A - 2
> B - 7
> C - 12 (no internal connections to lock out)
> D - 5 (for grid leakage and emissions)
> 
> The only one I'm not sure about is control D. You said last night that it was probably the plate and that made sense, but the above quote says to select the control grid which IIRC is pin 5 on a 6L6GC? Rotating control D should test (and fail) for shorts between all pins except 2 and 7. Does this sound correct? I don't want to blow up my tester screwing around with the wrong settings.



Makes sense, and 2-7-12-5 seems like it would be correct. Now that I think of it, D must not be the plate because I had a tube that was testing good for emissions once with a cap, and the cap broke off and it still tested good wtf so I guess the control grid would make sense.

I don't think you'll mess up the tester if you get it wrong, might mess up the tube though, so try it out first on an old one. (wouldn't want 200VDC on your heater, for example )


----------



## MartyStrat54

TOM-The tube I have used most in the 900DR's is a stout Raytheon Black Plate in V1. Some guys claim that V2 affects the tone as well, so I use a Sylvania or RCA in this slot. 

If you want current production, then all I can recommend is a couple of Tung-Sol's in V1 and V2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Are you trying to test a 6L6 in the emissions section of the 707?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-Are you trying to test a 6L6 in the emissions section of the 707?



Yes. I'm trying to figure out why it's reading some shorts on all tubes. I want to take a known good tube and see which pins are shorting and maybe track it down.

Any suggestions? I was about to give it a try.


----------



## RiverRatt

The settings work with the 6L6GC in socket 38. I get shorts on pins 3, 4, 5 and 8. I can make the shorts lamp go out by locking out Pin 8 or by pressing the Grid Emission or Test 1 switches.


----------



## Cardiac Tom

MartyStrat54 said:


> TOM-The tube I have used most in the 900DR's is a stout Raytheon Black Plate in V1. Some guys claim that V2 affects the tone as well, so I use a Sylvania or RCA in this slot.
> 
> If you want current production, then all I can recommend is a couple of Tung-Sol's in V1 and V2.



Hi Marty...was hoping you'd see this...

What about V3? No matter in this...

For now I just may go with the Tung-Sol's...Others have recommended those as well...


----------



## MartyStrat54

TOM-You can run just about anything in V3, but if you have several tubes try them out to see which one is best to your ears.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I had a dinner to attend to and I just got back. I never did that before, so that is something new to me. I don't have any advice to share. However, it does sound like something is awry with your tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the sensitivity adjustment pot was the culprit. I cleaned it good and got the sensitivity set low enough that I'm not getting false shorts anymore. I've got a nice Fluke meter on the way so I can get in there and finish setting the tester up. Hopefully I'll be getting good, consistent numbers soon.

What did I say awhile back about always coming back to the Raytheon black plate in V2? I was playing last night and it was just too fizzy. Put the Ray back in V2 and moved the Mullard back to V1 and it sounded so much better. If I were playing really high-gain stuff and nothing else, I'd probably run two hotter tubes in V1 and V2 but it seems to really limit the amp's versatility.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah when my tester acted up after calibration it was the sensitivity pot. He cleaned it out and it cleared the high reading issue. I hope that you get it up to snuff.

TUBES___Yes ALAN, that Black Plate in V2 just clones itself really well to most V1 tubes and yields a really consistent tone. 8 out of 10 of my customers get a BP. The other two are high gain metal heads and I go with the Electrohome in V2. (Of course the Electrohome makes a sweet V1 in combos, because of the short plates.)


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys! 

Matt was right, persistence paid! I won the B&K 700 (super clean, re-ferbed and calibrated) for $163.00!


----------



## RiverRatt

That's not all that much more than I just paid for a multimeter, and it was the cheapest decent one I found.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> That's not all that much more than I just paid for a multimeter, and it was the cheapest decent one I found.



Thanks Alan! 

What kind of DMM did you end up with? Did you find a Fluke for $150.00???


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought a Fluke 115 for $99 plus shipping. I was looking at an Amprobe 37XR. It would do inductance, too, but the Fluke was a little less and I can't ever remember wishing I could test the inductance of anything. The Fluke has a solid reputation and I think it'll do everything I need.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I bought a Fluke 115 for $99 plus shipping. I was looking at an Amprobe 37XR. It would do inductance, too, but the Fluke was a little less and I can't ever remember wishing I could test the inductance of anything. The Fluke has a solid reputation and I think it'll do everything I need.



Nice score ! You cant go wrong with a Fluke.

Any one I know that does pro electric has one.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Amprobes are nice, too, but I figured if I got one I'd always wonder if the Fluke was better. My old meter is shot. I thought I'd found a dead resistor in the 707 and I just happened to touch the meter where the common lead plugs in and it read OK for awhile, then went back to flashing. No wonder I've been having such a hell of a time calibrating the B&K! I have no idea when it started doing this, but lately I have to rotate the selector a couple of times to get it to come on. This was a good excuse to go ahead and get the Fluke.


----------



## MM54

I'd like to get a nice bench meter some time


----------



## RiverRatt

Hell, I need a bench before I can get a bench meter! LOL. My wife gets pissed because every time I start a project or repair, I take over the kitchen table. She doesn't see it as the sacrifice that it is... the dining room table is much bigger!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> Matt was right, persistence paid! I won the B&K 700 (super clean, re-ferbed and calibrated) for $163.00!



Good score. The 700 is basically just the "black" version of the 707. If I remember right, the layout is almost identical. The 700 has 10 octal sockets and the 707 has 11.

Glad it worked out for you. It will handle any guitar tube with ease.


----------



## Marshall Mann

I am using a trusty old Radio Shack DMM. It works for me. 

I have a good bench in the garage...but it's full of crap right now! I do most of my work in the man cave anyway. It's heated, the humidity is controlled, and the beverage fridge is down here! I have been thinking of building a separate bench for down hear.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good score. The 700 is basically just the "black" version of the 707. If I remember right, the layout is almost identical. The 700 has 10 octal sockets and the 707 has 11.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you. It will handle any guitar tube with ease.



Thanks Marty!

And thanks to you, Matt and Alan for all your advice and help while I was shopping. 

You guys are the best!


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys, I know this is weird.. But I have had this song stuck in my head all day.. 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuoSB4cmrSU]Sweeney Todd - Roxy Roller - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

One of the HAM guys I regularly trade with has the coolest bench I've ever seen. He's retired and has a nice room in the back of his garage with two benches - one is for all his HAM gear, and the other is for testing. He has a B&K 747 on one end and a good bench meter. I have an old Eico Capacitor Bridge tester that I'd love to get on a bench. It's one of my favorite pieces of gear. Anything that uses a magic eye tube is automatically cool. It'll test for conductance, capacitance, and even let you compare an unknown part to one of known value, and tell you what the unknown is. That comes in really handy for testing capacitors, but it will work with chokes and speakers as well.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> One of the HAM guys I regularly trade with has the coolest bench I've ever seen. He's retired and has a nice room in the back of his garage with two benches - one is for all his HAM gear, and the other is for testing. He has a B&K 747 on one end and a good bench meter. I have an old Eico Capacitor Bridge tester that I'd love to get on a bench. It's one of my favorite pieces of gear. Anything that uses a magic eye tube is automatically cool. It'll test for conductance, capacitance, and even let you compare an unknown part to one of known value, and tell you what the unknown is. That comes in really handy for testing capacitors, but it will work with chokes and speakers as well.



Wow! Sounds cool Alan.

Lets see a pic of that thing!


----------



## Marshall Mann

My oldest friends Dad Ron (he and his wife took me in when my parents died when I was 20) has been a cash register repair man for almost 40 years. He is certified low voltage and has his home inspection license. He built a 20' long bench in the 2200 sqf garage at their house. It's something I lust after every time I go out there! There is no tool he dosent have.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here it is testing a 10uF capacitor.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I bought one of those about three years ago from a guy on EBAY and when I got it, it was in pieces internally. The seller gave me all sorts of grief. He was a lying azz. EBAY sided with me and I got my money refunded. I decided that I really didn't need one.

But yeah, you gotta love the "EYE!"


----------



## RiverRatt

That's the problem with EICO stuff. It was either assembled by an idiot who bought the kit, or an idiot who was paid minimum wage to assemble it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> That's the problem with EICO stuff. It was either assembled by an idiot who bought the kit, or an idiot who was paid minimum wage to assemble it.



I notice a few Heath Kit tube testers and thought the same thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Funny you should bring that up. It is just amazing the amount of electronic items that were available in kit form. Say what you will, but in the 40's through the 70's, Americans were pretty darn good at putting shit together (or at least trying).

When I was like 12 to 15 years old, I used to spend hours looking in all of the kit catalogs. What do you think a real EL34 cost then? I mean look how much a Dynaco power amp brings on EBAY. These were all kit built. Hell, I have an older O scope that was built by someone at their home. (It's a HeathKit.) 

At some point, the cost of manufacturing (SS) dropped to such a low point, that nobody was interested in making their own anymore.

Just imagine if people had to put their computers and monitors all together at their homes? 

On a ending note: There is a lot of people who put amp kits together.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a problem with all these old testers. You never know who's been in there mucking around with components, changing things, replacing components, etc. I got lucky. My B&K 707 was unmolested. The main problem I'm having is with worn-out sockets. I know you can get a socket saver and use that, but there's always going to be some part of me that wants to get in there and replace all those loose sockets. I'll probably end up doing that sooner or later. I want to get it calibrated and working right first.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On the thread, "What is this black knob?" I gave an answer of:

What a relief! I thought it could have been a Hyper Max Overdrive system by Supersonic Mods. This puts two extra 12AX7's in series with the original V1 for massive gain and overdrive.

NO ONE QUESTIONED THIS THE LEAST LITTLE BIT! I guess they felt if Marty says it, it must be true. Even the OP posted up that he was glad the amp didn't have that sort of mod.

I need to start lying more. People are taking me way to seriously.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty! Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dammit Alan. I wanted someone to give me a laugh over what I posted. Instead, it was taken as gospel.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, yeah. What did you expect? If you said a Sovtek 12AX7WXT was the ultimate tube for V1, eighty guys would buy one on eBay tomorrow.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Funny you should bring that up. It is just amazing the amount of electronic items that were available in kit form. Say what you will, but in the 40's through the 70's, Americans were pretty darn good at putting shit together (or at least trying).
> 
> When I was like 12 to 15 years old, I used to spend hours looking in all of the kit catalogs. What do you think a real EL34 cost then? I mean look how much a Dynaco power amp brings on EBAY. These were all kit built. Hell, I have an older O scope that was built by someone at their home. (It's a HeathKit.)
> 
> At some point, the cost of manufacturing (SS) dropped to such a low point, that nobody was interested in making their own anymore.
> 
> Just imagine if people had to put their computers and monitors all together at their homes?
> 
> On a ending note: There is a lot of people who put amp kits together.



Ron (for mentioned stand in Dad) has an old Heath Kit power amp that I have been pushing him to get up and running again. He stills has the original build instruction manual.

I'll get some pics of it next time I'm there. 

I remember the Radio Shack (Tandy) build kits from being a kid, like the strobe light kit.

I'm sure you guys get this more than I do, but how many people tell you "wow, you work on tube amps", or "wow, you did you own brake job?" It seems the days of working on your own stuff are all but dead and gone?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dammit Alan. I wanted someone to give me a laugh over what I posted. Instead, it was taken as gospel.



I thought it was pretty damn funny!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> I'm sure you guys get this more than I do, but how many people tell you "wow, you work on tube amps", or "wow, you did you own brake job?" It seems the days of working on your own stuff are all but dead and gone?



It seems like every time we have a new vehicle, I have to buy some new gadget to to a brake job on it. I can't afford to pay someone $200 for a job I can do for $20 in parts.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Hey, question for you pre amp tube experts. I'm still looking at tubes in my area, but I think they're on harger drugs than the people from Ebay.
I'm not sure if its too much or what, which is why I want to check with you guys.

I checked these:

*GE 12AX7 NOS - U$ 125*
12ax7 Rca Nos - U$S 125,00 en MercadoLibre

*RCA 12AX7 NOS U$ 140*
Válvula Electrónica, Vacuum Tube 12ax7 / Ecc83 Rca Nos ! - U$S 140,00 en MercadoLibre

*GE 12AX7 NOS U$ 80*
12ax7 General Electric Nos - U$S 80,00 en MercadoLibre

I made them offers (for MUCH less), but still awaiting response, but so far.. your thoughts?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> It seems like every time we have a new vehicle, I have to buy some new gadget to to a brake job on it. I can't afford to pay someone $200 for a job I can do for $20 in parts.



Yep. I saved my self $275.00 last week doing a brake job. And I installed new rotors instead of resurfacing and got semi metallic pads.


----------



## Marshall Mann

SmokeyDopey said:


> Hey, question for you pre amp tube experts. I'm still looking at tubes in my area, but I think they're on harger drugs than the people from Ebay.
> I'm not sure if its too much or what, which is why I want to check with you guys.
> 
> I checked these:
> 
> *GE 12AX7 NOS - U$ 125*
> 12ax7 Rca Nos - U$S 125,00 en MercadoLibre
> 
> *RCA 12AX7 NOS U$ 140*
> Válvula Electrónica, Vacuum Tube 12ax7 / Ecc83 Rca Nos ! - U$S 140,00 en MercadoLibre
> 
> *GE 12AX7 NOS U$ 80*
> 12ax7 General Electric Nos - U$S 80,00 en MercadoLibre
> 
> I made them offers (for MUCH less), but still awaiting response, but so far.. your thoughts?



Hey SD,

Yes, those prices seem highly inflated. Even above what you might call "retail" for these. 

Have you looked on ebay yet? I would expect to pay between $12.00 and $30.00 each for any one of these.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey SD,
> 
> Yes, those prices seem highly inflated. Even above what you might call "retail" for these.
> 
> Have you looked on ebay yet? I would expect to pay between $12.00 and $30.00 each for any one of these.


 
Yeah, I'm comparing prices between Ebay and 'Mercadolibre'.
I offered $180 pesos which is approx U$45 in the Argentine site. I want to see if I can get any deals from people in my area before I order overseas. I do keep in mind that the tubes they're selling here were shipped, so I can't really offer a price range you see in Ebay. I think U$45 is decent. If they won't take less than U$60 (or somewhere in that range), I'll go to Ebay.


----------



## Marshall Mann

SmokeyDopey said:


> Yeah, I'm comparing prices between Ebay and 'Mercadolibre'.
> I offered $180 pesos which is approx U$45 in the Argentine site. I want to see if I can get any deals from people in my area before I order overseas. I do keep in mind that the tubes they're selling here were shipped, so I can't really offer a price range you see in Ebay. I think U$45 is decent. If they won't take less than U$60 (or somewhere in that range), I'll go to Ebay.



Sounds like a good plan. $45 to $60 with shipping is not a bad deal.

Have you checked with Marty to see if he cant send you a tone pack? I dont know if Marty ships outside of the country or not?


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Marshall Mann said:


> Sounds like a good plan. $45 to $60 with shipping is not a bad deal.
> 
> Have you checked with Marty to see if he cant send you a tone pack? I dont know if Marty ships outside of the country or not?


 
That would be interesting..


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just imagine if people had to put their computers and monitors all together at their homes?
> 
> On a ending note: There is a lot of people who put amp kits together.



My friends and I used to put our own computers together in the 90's. Was cheaper and you could get whatever brand parts you wanted.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Well, from my previous post about the pre amp tubes that are way too inflated I got responses on all 3 saying no. Not even willing to negotiate, just straight up "No thanks".

Fuck these guys, I think I'm gonna have to look into bringing them over seas...


----------



## MM54

Even with international shipping you should be able to get them a lot cheaper than those prices :eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, and for what you're getting it's just not worth it. I wouldn't pay more than $15 - $20 for a plain old GE or RCA. You need something with seams on top or a diamond in the bottom for a Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> My friends and I used to put our own computers together in the 90's. Was cheaper and you could get whatever brand parts you wanted.



I've never bought a pre-assembled PC. I always build from components except with Mac's and laptops. That's still not the same as assembling a kit project, though. The tube amp kit analogy works better.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, but...no one really builds their own computers much anymore, and the shops that built custom ones are mostly out of business these days because you can by the pre-assembled ones so much cheaper now. Heck, you can buy a new updated machine with a warranty for about the same or less as the bench fee and replacement parts to fix a broken used computer.

Several years ago my buddy who had a computer shop used to swap me new ram chips that were double the size of mine because he had customers that needed replacements that were no longer manufactured and then cost twice as much! Tech changes so fast and things become obsolete in a matter of months makes parts for the older machines scarce. Weird...


----------



## sccloser

I was just using that as an example of how we used to build our own (or assemble our own).

I use to make my own ammo for years as well. But, when a lot of surplus ammo came on the market really cheap back in the early 2000's, I quit loading a lot of calibers because it became more cost effective to just buy loaded ammo. All that has changed now, however. Ammo is EX-pen-SIVE!

I used to a 150 rounds at a match 5 or 6 years ago at a cost of about $12.50...these days it would cost about $60 or more for the same ammo if you could get it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I was just using that as an example of how we used to build our own (or assemble our own).
> 
> I use to make my own ammo for years as well. But, when a lot of surplus ammo came on the market really cheap back in the early 2000's, I quit loading a lot of calibers because it became more cost effective to just buy loaded ammo. All that has changed now, however. Ammo is EX-pen-SIVE!
> 
> I used to a 150 rounds at a match 5 or 6 years ago at a cost of about $12.50...these days it would cost about $60 or more for the same ammo if you could get it.



It's crazy out there, it's getting a bit better, but still nuts! I just got a box of 250 rounds for $40.00 at a garage sale. I felt like I had git a gold mine!

Two years or so a go, I could not even buy a box of 9mm, any where!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm glad I picked up a pair of those silver plate Ei ECC83's that were all over eBay a month or so ago. I was expecting a really bright tube, but they are actually pretty dark sounding and great in a Marshall. 

Anybody tried the Telefunken phase inverter thing we were talking about a few pages back? I put a smooth plate in tonight and it wasn't bad at all. It gave the amp a little more bite and there's just something a Tele does to the pick attack that I love which comes through even in the PI slot. A lot of people say the PI doesn't affect the tone, but if you don't have a good PI tube the amp isn't going to sound right.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Alan,

I have a Tele ribbed plate in the PI slot on my 6100. I spent some time with a tech named Brian Sours recently, and he recommended trying them out. 

It gives the PI a bit of "hair" that I like quite a bit. And you are right, a tele has great emphasis on the pick attack. They are a bit too much for V1 or V2 in the 6100 though. 

The PI makes a huge difference in the over all tone and character of an amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, the PI tube should never be overlooked. It plays a part in the total overall tone and balls. Yeah, that EBAY Tube Guru said to run the Tele's in the PI. Most people do not have the luxury of having a spare Tele to try this. I may have to give it a go. I'm all about having the best PI tube I can get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think I have some high gain, lopsided Tele's somewhere upstairs.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think I have some high gain, lopsided Tele's somewhere upstairs.



Let me know if you have an extra you want to unload Marty! 

I have have 6 or 7 on hand, but none that are high gain or lopsided.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I sat a storm out tonight. It just cleared about 15 minutes ago. The wind must have taken some shingles off as I had water coming down in the kitchen area. Part of the ceiling fell down onto the floor. Oh boy. This is going to be fun.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Shit, sorry Marty!


----------



## solarburn

Oh shit man I just woke up...I hit my first day off with a tuck and roll. No sleep. Me and the14yr old had to go get her new high school schedule at 1pm today, pay for a yearbook/ASB card and then go school supply shopping. $120 later I last till about 6pm and then pass out. Now me and my 12yr old are going to the 24hr Walmart and kill her school supply list. Told her we'd get it done today but I was literally "drunk" with sleep earlier. I can't go anywhere like that. The drawback of working graveyards.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I sat a storm out tonight. It just cleared about 15 minutes ago. The wind must have taken some shingles off as I had water coming down in the kitchen area. Part of the ceiling fell down onto the floor. Oh boy. This is going to be fun.



That's a bummer Marty.

Hope it ain't as bad as it looks...


----------



## solarburn

I got a damn paper cut on my fretting hand today handling some junk mail. That paper was lethal!

Toobs!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got a damn paper cut on my fretting hand today handling some junk mail. That paper was lethal!
> 
> Toobs!



Happy day off Joe! Get some rest man!

PS - You da Man for sticking it out for your Girls!!!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, that sounds like my luck. I did come out pretty well on that wreck my daughter had. The insurance company is giving me $6300 for my old 2000 Maxima. I would have sold it for half that! So now I have to go car shopping this weekend with a budget of $6,300. I could always buy a $2,000 clunker and blow the rest on guitars and amps!


----------



## SmokeyDopey

I wouldnt even buy the car


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, that sounds like my luck. I did come out pretty well on that wreck my daughter had. The insurance company is giving me $6300 for my old 2000 Maxima. I would have sold it for half that! So now I have to go car shopping this weekend with a budget of $6,300. I could always buy a $2,000 clunker and blow the rest on guitars and amps!



You can get a pretty sweet Les Paul for 4300 bones my friend.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've already got a great Les Paul. I suppose it'll go into another car. There's a nice 2000 Pontiac Bonneville in town that I've been looking at for $5k out the door. We always have a GM truck of some sort, but I haven't owned a GM car in decades. It's just a drive to work and back car, but I'm leery of one that's so old. It really looks clean, though, and it runs and drives great. Whatever I do, I'm not taking on a car payment. 

Got my Fluke meter today and I've been messin' with the B&K 707. I've got all voltages reading dead-on, and the test scores are too high. A 6L6GC that tested at 85 on my friend's 747 is now testing at around 110 on mine. I need a handful of known tubes to figure this out. A Raytheon JRP 12AX7 that I know is strong is testing at like 40-41. That score may be closer to correct. A fairly weak GE 12AX7 is at around 25-25.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey CODY! Did you ever get your 59 back? I haven't seen any posting about it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey, were did everybody go?????


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm here 

Prolly just one of the periodic lulls that we have here.

I'm 'bout to go to bed. I can feel Monday creeping in. I've been out car shopping all weekend and I still don't know what to buy, and I'm sick of car salesmen. I found a Mitsubishi Lancer OT Rally in Memphis that's well within my price range and looks like a very reliable car. 30+ mpg highway, too. It's either that or a local Pontiac Bonneville. It's a nice car but older with high miles. I was looking to buy an American car but the Lancer is speaking to me. The Pontiacs have issues and I don't want something I'll be pouring money into. I'm looking for no payments and good gas mileage and reliability and the Lancer is the best I've found so far. My rental goes back on Thursday so I have to find something soon.

I was checking out Mullard I63's in the VM earlier - I'm thinking about selling off a few. They don't do much for me. Nothing like the old 1958 Mullard long plate I've been using. Anybody else been doing any rolling lately?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you can find a solid long plate Philips for V1, that is usually the best sounding. I was stuck on Holland Amperex with the medium plates. Now almost all of my amps have Dario MiniWatts for V1. These are long plate Philips designed tubes. The BEL's are still a favorite of mine. 

I've been selling tubes for over three years and I will say that I am getting low on my exotic tubes. It's getting hard to find them at a bargain price. I probably won't be doing this too much longer. You can tie up a lot of cash in inventory as well. There was a guy selling 12 new Telefunkens and they went for $82 a piece. It's just nuts. I looked at some of my old invoices from two years ago and I bought 8 strong Blackburn Mullards for $66 on EBAY. That ain't gonna happen anymore. 

I had even went online and designed a really cool "Martimus Maximus" T-shirt. It was going to cost me $352 to print up 30 shirts. After giving it much thought, I declined. It would have been nice if I had done the shirts two years ago.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you can find a solid long plate Philips for V1, that is usually the best sounding. I was stuck on Holland Amperex with the medium plates. Now almost all of my amps have Dario MiniWatts for V1. These are long plate Philips designed tubes. The BEL's are still a favorite of mine.



Yeah, right on. It's like they sacrificed tone for low noise and microphonics. The tubes I consistently go back to for tone are the older long-plate tubes.

Sorry your tube sales aren't working out better. It's hard to sell anything in this economy for what it was worth a year ago.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I'm here
> 
> Prolly just one of the periodic lulls that we have here.
> 
> I'm 'bout to go to bed. I can feel Monday creeping in. I've been out car shopping all weekend and I still don't know what to buy, and I'm sick of car salesmen. I found a Mitsubishi Lancer OT Rally in Memphis that's well within my price range and looks like a very reliable car. 30+ mpg highway, too. It's either that or a local Pontiac Bonneville. It's a nice car but older with high miles. I was looking to buy an American car but the Lancer is speaking to me. The Pontiacs have issues and I don't want something I'll be pouring money into. I'm looking for no payments and good gas mileage and reliability and the Lancer is the best I've found so far. My rental goes back on Thursday so I have to find something soon.
> 
> I was checking out Mullard I63's in the VM earlier - I'm thinking about selling off a few. They don't do much for me. Nothing like the old 1958 Mullard long plate I've been using. Anybody else been doing any rolling lately?



Hey Alan,

I hate cars shopping as well. We have an inside guy at the Chevy dealership who calls me when the right thing comes in. It saves us a lot of BS dealing with the lot lizards! 

Hey, you guys had any experience with Brazilian Phillips Miniwats? The ones with the solid getter?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you can find a solid long plate Philips for V1, that is usually the best sounding. I was stuck on Holland Amperex with the medium plates. Now almost all of my amps have Dario MiniWatts for V1. These are long plate Philips designed tubes. The BEL's are still a favorite of mine.
> 
> I've been selling tubes for over three years and I will say that I am getting low on my exotic tubes. It's getting hard to find them at a bargain price. I probably won't be doing this too much longer. You can tie up a lot of cash in inventory as well. There was a guy selling 12 new Telefunkens and they went for $82 a piece. It's just nuts. I looked at some of my old invoices from two years ago and I bought 8 strong Blackburn Mullards for $66 on EBAY. That ain't gonna happen anymore.
> 
> I had even went online and designed a really cool "Martimus Maximus" T-shirt. It was going to cost me $352 to print up 30 shirts. After giving it much thought, I declined. It would have been nice if I had done the shirts two years ago.



Sorry Marty, 

It's weird out there. some go cheap, then there are guys asking $200 for a pair of Mullards with moderate test scores. I have been looking locally for organ pulls and old repair shops. It's harder than its been in a long time to find deals.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Brazilian Phillips Miniwatts

The Brazilian tube should be labeled as "DARIO" in green print. The solid getters sound good, but I prefer the halo getter. If it is yellow print, it was made in Holland.

Look for codes on the tube. These may also be found on the bottom of the tube in the middle of the pins, or on the outside portion of the tubes. Brazilian code is F Y M T T C IBRAPE, Sao Paulo, Brazil. Like any Philips made tube, a DARIO could have been made just about any place. Mullard made Dario's. The tube code will give you the country of origin. I prefer the Brazilian Dario's the best, but they are all good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dario Miniwatt ECC82's. Just for an example. These are Holland made tubes. Note the yellow print.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a green print ECC82. More than likely a Brazilian tube.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Thanks Marty!

The solid disc getter has always fascinated me. 

I passed on a set Sunday night. They sold for $23.50 or $11.75 each. I'm kind of kicking myself now, but oh well.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey all. What is your experience, how much difference does "burn-in time" _truly_ make in preamp tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Josh! 

I don't think preamp tubes need a burn-in time. About the only thing that changes over time is that the cathode coating is gradually boiled away and you'd have to put several thousand hours on a good tube to notice any difference in performance. A burn-in time would help weed out bad tubes, but that's supposed to be done before they reach the consumer.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Josh!
> 
> I don't think preamp tubes need a burn-in time. About the only thing that changes over time is that the cathode coating is gradually boiled away and you'd have to put several thousand hours on a good tube to notice any difference in performance. A burn-in time would help weed out bad tubes, but that's supposed to be done before they reach the consumer.



I did have my doubts as to effecting tone, but for confirming reliability it would seem as somewhat useful... So, more "snake oil"?...


> *Preamp Vacuum Tubes*
> *For maximum tone & reliability* - *All tubes are properly burned-in, tested & selected*
> Voodoo Amps™ carries a variety of tubes to meet your needs. All tubes are burned in for 96 hours on our proprietary burned-in racks. Our racks are based on the original burn-in racks used by tube manufacturers decades past. *Not only does it improve your tone, it also improves performance & reliability*. After the burn-in process we then test, select & match tubes. Your tubes will sound better, feel better & last longer.​


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I sat a storm out tonight. It just cleared about 15 minutes ago. The wind must have taken some shingles off as I had water coming down in the kitchen area. Part of the ceiling fell down onto the floor. Oh boy. This is going to be fun.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> I got a damn paper cut on my fretting hand today handling some junk mail. That paper was lethal!
> 
> Toobs!





RiverRatt said:


> Marty, that sounds like my luck. I did come out pretty well on that wreck my daughter had. The insurance company is giving me $6300 for my old 2000 Maxima. I would have sold it for half that! So now I have to go car shopping this weekend with a budget of $6,300. I could always buy a $2,000 clunker and blow the rest on guitars and amps!



Dang...  Sounds like ya'll are taking a beating in here these days! Sheesh.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From EBAY listing.



> Set of four McIntosh 12AX7 [A] tubes, brand new.. These tubes are all tested and part of a fresh McIntosh bulk lot. You can buy with confidence that these tubes will not be microphonic and will meet ALL new tube specs. Made in Russia, these are considered to be sonically of the highest quality as evidenced by their use in McIntosh products.



Let me guess. Relabeled New Sensor?

Four McIntosh 12AX7 12AX7A Vacuum Tubes NEW | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

More EBAY to ponder. A few weeks ago, I thought I would bid on some square getter Mullards. I think I posted the final result. A lot of 8 went for over $640, or $80 each. I thought, "Holy hell. That's a lot of money." Well this guy has two and he wants at least $125 each. "Good golly Miss Molly!"

MULLARD ECC83/12AX7 mC1 TUBES PAIR SQUARE GETTER | eBay


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> From EBAY listing.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me guess. Relabeled New Sensor?
> 
> Four McIntosh 12AX7 12AX7A Vacuum Tubes NEW | eBay



Those look just like the New Sensor 'Mullard' I dissected a while back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. They are just regular Russian new production and that means New Sensor.

I looked at his other items and he has a bunch of Russian power and preamp tubes.

Back in 1964, McIntosh amps used Telefunken smooth plate tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Dang...  Sounds like ya'll are taking a beating in here these days! Sheesh.



Shit, you should have been here a few weeks ago. I didn't talk about it but I thought I was dying. My right leg was swelled up like a basketball. The doctor thought I had a blood clot. Turned out to be my blood pressure medicine. I got off that shit and feel better than I have in a year. I've lost 20 lbs and for the first time in forever I actually feel _good_. It's bizarre what you can go through without realizing how bad you feel until you can step back and view it with some perspective.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I think I told you guys that I was on meds for almost five years. The original meds gave me side effects, so the doctor gave me other meds to neutralize the side effects. I got to where I was taking 11 pills every night. I gained 50 pounds over that time period. When I complained about it to my doctor, he tried to make me understand that it was all part of the "good outweighing the bad." Then my regular VA doctor tells me that my thyroid was almost shut down, that my blood pressure was up and I was borderline diabetic. That really scared me. I cut some of my dosages in half and stopped taking other meds. I feel so much better and I have been a member of the YMCA for over two months. 

Sometimes you have to make decisions that are best for you. Your doctor may not always be able to do what is right and in fact, may be causing you a great deal of harm.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> More EBAY to ponder. A few weeks ago, I thought I would bid on some square getter Mullards. I think I posted the final result. A lot of 8 went for over $640, or $80 each. I thought, "Holy hell. That's a lot of money." Well this guy has two and he wants at least $125 each. "Good golly Miss Molly!"
> 
> MULLARD ECC83/12AX7 mC1 TUBES PAIR SQUARE GETTER | eBay



Those are a year earlier than that one I picked up in a trade awhile back. It may be the best-sounding preamp tube I've ever used, but $125? I'll pass. It's not $100 better than my best $25 tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I think I told you guys that I was on meds for almost five years. The original meds gave me side effects, so the doctor gave me other meds to neutralize the side effects. I got to where I was taking 11 pills every night. I gained 50 pounds over that time period. When I complained about it to my doctor, he tried to make me understand that it was all part of the "good outweighing the bad." Then my regular VA doctor tells me that my thyroid was almost shut down, that my blood pressure was up and I was borderline diabetic. That really scared me. I cut some of my dosages in half and stopped taking other meds. I feel so much better and I have been a member of the YMCA for over two months.
> 
> Sometimes you have to make decisions that are best for you. Your doctor may not always be able to do what is right and in fact, may be causing you a great deal of harm.



I hear ya. Unfortunately I have a problem with what used to be called manic depression that absolutely has to be treated with meds. Right now I'm pinging off the walls. I sleep about 5 hours a night and have so much nervous energy that I can't slow down and think straight. I play guitar to keep my hands from shaking. The opposite is even worse. I let it almost cost me my marriage, my family and my life before I got help for it. I'm tied to those drugs for life. 

I'm pretty good right now, though. I kinda dig having all this fizzy energy for a change. It's like the high you get off acid without the interesting side effects.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Shit, you should have been here a few weeks ago. I didn't talk about it but I thought I was dying. My right leg was swelled up like a basketball. The doctor thought I had a blood clot. Turned out to be my blood pressure medicine. I got off that shit and feel better than I have in a year. I've lost 20 lbs and for the first time in forever I actually feel _good_. It's bizarre what you can go through without realizing how bad you feel until you can step back and view it with some perspective.



Jeebus Alan! Glad you're feel'n better.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm good, man, and thanks. Just getting old 

I had a follow up appointment today, that's how I know about the weight loss. My blood pressure was around 160/90 though, so we're trying stronger meds for now. I'm hoping as I shed more weight that'll work itself out, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm good, man, and thanks. Just getting old
> 
> I had a follow up appointment today, that's how I know about the weight loss. My blood pressure was around 160/90 though, so we're trying stronger meds for now. I'm hoping as I shed more weight that'll work itself out, too.



Losing wait should help that out. Hopefully the Doc can get you dialed in without bad sides...

I hate using drugs for my ailments but sometimes it helps. F'ing sides(EFX)can be hell though!


----------



## RiverRatt

I like what I call "couch drugs". The ones you take where you can just lay around on the couch for 3 days or so and stare at the TV or doze or something in between. They usually come with some type of surgery, though, so it's a trade-off.

I had hernia surgery once when my oldest kid was maybe 2 or 3. I was laid up at home on some GOOD drugs and he came down with a stomach virus so guess who had to babysit him, and guess who also caught the virus. I think that may be the most miserable I've ever been. Try puking your guts out after abdominal surgery. It ain't fun.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I like what I call "couch drugs". The ones you take where you can just lay around on the couch for 3 days or so and stare at the TV or doze or something in between. They usually come with some type of surgery, though, so it's a trade-off.
> 
> I had hernia surgery once when my oldest kid was maybe 2 or 3. I was laid up at home on some GOOD drugs and he came down with a stomach virus so guess who had to babysit him, and guess who also caught the virus. I think that may be the most miserable I've ever been. Try puking your guts out after abdominal surgery. It ain't fun.



You got wamped on that one!

After my recent surgery which part of it was a hiatel hernia repair I can't puke anymore let alone even burp. That valve only goes one way. I don't have heartburn anymore. I carry anti-nausea meds with me wherever I go. If I puke I can rupture what the Doc tied up so to speak. So far I haven't got sick enuff to puke...hope them meds work when I need them!

I only got liquid vicoden for mine. Couldn't swallow pills that soon after surgery until i graduated my diet phases. Anyways the "elixer" wasn't worth it at all. Barely even felt it. What a rip!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sheesh. U guys are fallin' apart! It sounds like the beginning of "Cocoon", before they start swimming with the alien eggs or whatever those things were!


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You got wamped on that one!
> 
> After my recent surgery which part of it was a hiatel hernia repair I can't puke anymore let alone even burp. That valve only goes one way. I don't have heartburn anymore. I carry anti-nausea meds with me wherever I go. If I puke I can rupture what the Doc tied up so to speak. So far I haven't got sick enuff to puke...hope them meds work when I need them!
> 
> I only got liquid vicoden for mine. Couldn't swallow pills that soon after surgery until i graduated my diet phases. Anyways the "elixer" wasn't worth it at all. Barely even felt it. What a rip!



You must have a high tolerance. I would notice liquid vicodin. I spent 3 weeks in the hospital on morphine when they took my leg off, and that ruined me. It takes a powerful narcotic for me to even feel it anymore. Of course, I tend to take a little more than the recommended dosage


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Sheesh. U guys are fallin' apart! It sounds like the beginning of "Cocoon", before they start swimming with the alien eggs or whatever those things were!





Wait until you get a few more miles on you, Josh! You'll be going, "Damn, those guys were right!"


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Yeah... I never thought I'd be wanting to slow down and enjoy my 30's!


----------



## RiverRatt

36 is the magic age. It all goes downhill from there (except for sex). That was around 10 years ago for me. Yeah, it was fun.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Those are a year earlier than that one I picked up in a trade awhile back. It may be the best-sounding preamp tube I've ever used, but $125? I'll pass. It's not $100 better than my best $25 tube.



The differences are crazy! And people seem to be on crack. $125.00 a tube? Nuts! I wonder what he is basing his rates on?

I finally made it into an old TV / radio repair shop that I have seen on my way home from work. Hell of a nice guy owns it. He had a few treasures including a couple of Mullard long plates that were in great shape for $30 ea. Not too bad, but more than I wanted to pay today. He did mention a ham radio shop that has walls full of tubes near my work. I'm going to have to hit them up soon.


----------



## RiverRatt

Do it, man. Those guys will lead to more contacts. Once they see that you are to be trusted, it's like being invited into the "inner circle".


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Do it, man. Those guys will lead to more contacts. Once they see that you are to be trusted, it's like being invited into the "inner circle".



For sure Alan. I got their phone and contact info from him before I left. I'm on vacation the next couple of days, but once I'm back I'm there! I will give a full report! If anything, maybe I can work out a deal for some of these extra tubes that are of no use to me. 

So what do you think of $60 for those two Mullards? I have some shorter plated Mullards (14mm), but none of the 17's.


----------



## RiverRatt

The long plates are good. Mine is a 1958 and it's really a nice sounding tube. It's not a D getter - mine has the double-post halo getter. $30 each? Yeah, if I could afford it I'd pay that for a couple. You should be able to easily get your money back on eBay if you don't like 'em.

I'm going to get my cane and hobble off to bed. See you toob nutz later!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Small fug up. Not to worry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Do it, man. Those guys will lead to more contacts. Once they see that you are to be trusted, it's like being invited into the "inner circle".



Yeah they don't want you telling the FCC that they are running big linear amps on their HAM radios. It's illegal, but oh so fun to do.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah they don't want you telling the FCC that they are running big linear amps on their HAM radios. It's illegal, but oh so fun to do.



Hellyeah! One of my "contacts" showed me a transmitter tube that looked like the headlamp from a 1969 Chevy. HG Wells could have designed this tube.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> The long plates are good. Mine is a 1958 and it's really a nice sounding tube. It's not a D getter - mine has the double-post halo getter. $30 each? Yeah, if I could afford it I'd pay that for a couple. You should be able to easily get your money back on eBay if you don't like 'em.
> 
> I'm going to get my cane and hobble off to bed. See you toob nutz later!



Good thing is he is off the beaten path. I'll have to get back there and pick em up!

G night Alan!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah they don't want you telling the FCC that they are running big linear amps on their HAM radios. It's illegal, but oh so fun to do.



Sweet!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah they don't want you telling the FCC that they are running big linear amps on their HAM radios. It's illegal, but oh so fun to do.



Why illegal? Too much transmitting power?


----------



## MartyStrat54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Why illegal? Too much transmitting power?



Yeah they are limited to a maximum transmitting power. Back in the good old CB days, semi truckers would use linear amps on their CB's. That's where the term, "Your stepping on me," came from. They would hit their "talk" button and blast about 500 watts of transmitting power. You could hear them in the next state.


----------



## MM54

I've always wanted to set up an underground heavy metal AM station


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, this thing is saying there's a Page 335. I can't get to it. When I click it, it goes back to 334.


----------



## MM54

There was a spam post that was deleted, they mess up threads until someone else posts.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, cool. I found a Craigslist deal. Dude is selling the original tubes out of a JCM900. 3 12AX7's and two EL34M's with the Marshall logo. Can anyone say "Tesla"?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I've always wanted to set up an underground heavy metal AM station



Yeah... I always thought that would be cool. It would be "All Hair Bands, All The Time!"


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Ok, cool. I found a Craigslist deal. Dude is selling the original tubes out of a JCM900. 3 12AX7's and two EL34M's with the Marshall logo. Can anyone say "Tesla"?



Make sure he didn't just pull them now because they're dead


----------



## MM54

joshuaaewallen said:


> Yeah... I always thought that would be cool. It would be "All Hair Bands, All The Time!"



I have tubes and stuff I could do it, the only reason I don't is simply I don't want to deal with the FCC if/when I would be caught


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Make sure he didn't just pull them now because they're dead



I can take a chance for $25.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I have tubes and stuff I could do it, the only reason I don't is simply I don't want to deal with the FCC if/when I would be caught



No "Wolfman Jack" ala American Graffiti for you, eh mate? Yeah... I can understand that.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I can take a chance for $25.



You didn't say the price was _that_ right 

Good luck, I know you have a tester to check them when you get home


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I did the fire extinguisher service for WCCO radio in Minneapolis, and I hit their transmitting stations too... Those dudes has some monster tubes. Like big as the size of a good bulldog, big.


----------



## MM54

Commercial transmitting tubes are awesome, so awesome they still don't have transistors to take their place


----------



## leadguitarist999

Why is this thread so popular? It's gay as shit!!!


----------



## MM54

leadguitarist999 said:


> Why is this thread so popular? It's gay as shit!!!



Only because you're here, good sir troll.


----------



## RiverRatt

leadguitarist999 said:


> Why is this thread so popular? It's gay as shit!!!



So grab your KY and jump on in. 

Maybe a little informal and too much just shooting the shit, but Gay? Fuck you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

leadguitarist999 said:


> Why is this thread so popular? It's gay as shit!!!



Take your 24 posts and shove them up your butt. If you don't like what you see here, just leave. No need in making a nasty remark.

If you post something like that again, I will report you to the MOD as a shit hole troll. Go rattle your chains someplace else, preferably on some other forum.


----------



## solarburn

Tee Hee!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wonder what he had to say about the 6100 thread? Let me know if he posted over there. I went to his personal page. He joined on Christmas Day, 2010. (Must have been really bored.) He has 24 posts in about eight months. Sounds like a troll to me.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wonder what he had to say about the 6100 thread? Let me know if he posted over there. I went to his personal page. He joined on Christmas Day, 2010. (Must have been really bored.) He has 24 posts in about eight months. Sounds like a troll to me.



Sounds like an odd forum to troll tbh.

On topic, just tested a raytheon 12BZ7 in my amp yesterday, sounded pretty good, although not that different from the miniwatt that was in it. 

You guys are all fuzzing about the Raytheon black plates, but i reckon this one is not is (the plates are dark grey).


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wonder what he had to say about the 6100 thread? Let me know if he posted over there. I went to his personal page. He joined on Christmas Day, 2010. (Must have been really bored.) He has 24 posts in about eight months. Sounds like a troll to me.



I frequent that thread as well and he hasn't posted there yet (unless it was overnight, I've not checked this morning yet).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Sounds like an odd forum to troll tbh.
> 
> On topic, just tested a raytheon 12BZ7 in my amp yesterday, sounded pretty good, although not that different from the miniwatt that was in it.
> 
> You guys are all fuzzing about the Raytheon black plates, but i reckon this one is not is (the plates are dark grey).



Hello. We did a lot of testing on the 12BZ7. They did not fair very well in the DSL/TSL. What amp did you try it in? 

Yes, we use the black plate 12AX7 as the V2 tube in amps that have four preamp tubes (counting the Phase Inverter). In an 800 for instance, I use it in V2 which is the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower.

I'd like to hear more about your BZ7 trial.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got those Marshall tubes from the dude. The pre's were Chinese. The power tubes were real Tesla EL34M's. Anyone know how to read Tesla date codes? They are stamped 524 and under that C3.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not familiar with the Tesla codes. How did they sound/test?


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't done anything with them yet. I don't have an EL34 amp anymore. They look good, but that doesn't mean much. The print on them is still perfect. I'm still not comfortable with the readings on my tester. I went through all the calibrations and it seems to be testing above normal on octal tubes. All the voltages are good. I wish one of you guys lived close by so I could compare the two testers.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello. We did a lot of testing on the 12BZ7. They did not fair very well in the DSL/TSL. What amp did you try it in?
> 
> Yes, we use the black plate 12AX7 as the V2 tube in amps that have four preamp tubes (counting the Phase Inverter). In an 800 for instance, I use it in V2 which is the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower.
> 
> I'd like to hear more about your BZ7 trial.



Well i tossed it in the DR 4100 (V1), It sounds good, of course when it starts breaking up it's probably more the diodes etc.

I think it sounds pretty goodl. I have been hoarding a bunch of different tubes vintage, and CP, and i must say that none of the cp (EH, JJ, Tungsol, shugyuan) can match the old ones...I think the best sounding one is the Telefunken, but my miniwatt and BZ7 are close behind.

I have some RCA, and Brimar tubes incoming, so I'll have a larger pool to compare.

On my to get list is Tungsram, old Tung Sol, Mullard and the Raytheon black plate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tung-Sol made a bunch of sweet power tubes, like the 6550, but their 12AX7's are just so-so as far as I am concerned.

Looks like you are well on your way to getting a great stash of tubes.

Since you have a DR, can you advise me on something. I've had guys with DR's claim that they can hear a tonal change by rolling tubes in V2. Is this the case with you?


----------



## ckr1231

leadguitarist999 said:


> Why is this thread so popular? It's gay as shit!!!


 That means you must be a homosexual---the Wham videos are down the hall. I suggest you go there !!!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello. We did a lot of testing on the 12BZ7. They did not fair very well in the DSL/TSL. What amp did you try it in?
> 
> ... I'd like to hear more about your BZ7 trial.





Lowlife said:


> Well i tossed it in the DR 4100 (V1), It sounds good, of course when it starts breaking up it's probably more the diodes etc.
> 
> I think it sounds pretty goodl. I have been hoarding a bunch of different tubes vintage, and CP, and i must say that none of the cp (EH, JJ, Tungsol, shugyuan) can match the old ones...I think the best sounding one is the Telefunken, but my miniwatt and BZ7 are close behind...



I, for one, quite liked the sound of a BZ7 in my TSL122, but it just couldn't hold up to the stresses of use in a combo amp. I have not tried one in my TSL since I converted it into a head unit.

... Perhaps I should have a go at it (although I don't think I have any good BZ7's to work with anymore).


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll see if I can find one for ya. I still have to send you that Matsushita. I'll throw one in if I can find a decent one.

I bought a car today... get ready for this, it's a primo Muscle Car. It's a 1996 Toyota Camry! I said I was going to go cheap and by God I did. It runs great, gets over 30 mpg, and I only paid $2,500 for it. All I'm going to do is drive it to work and back. I got tired of trying to find something newer and flashy. This one popped up for sale and I snagged it as soon as it hit the lot. Killer sound system, too. The trunk is big enough to fit a 1960 cab in.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'll see if I can find one for ya. I still have to send you that Matsushita. I'll throw one in if I can find a decent one.
> 
> I bought a car today... get ready for this, it's a primo Muscle Car. It's a 1996 Toyota Camry! I said I was going to go cheap and by God I did. It runs great, gets over 30 mpg, and I only paid $2,500 for it. All I'm going to do is drive it to work and back. I got tired of trying to find something newer and flashy. This one popped up for sale and I snagged it as soon as it hit the lot. Killer sound system, too. The trunk is big enough to fit a 1960 cab in.



Score on that Camry dude. It may not be sexy, but it'll be a great car. I've had great success w/ my Toyotas (and one of them actually was a '96 Camry), and I would not hesitate to buy another if I could.

... And... Thanks fer thinkin' of me on them there tubez bro!


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem, Josh. I got a bunch of 'em. We had a Camry about a kid ago. It was a 1992 or 1993. It was a great car until I wrapped it around the front of a Freightliner (and just about died - that was a tough car!). We drove it all over the place today and it ran like new. It even had new BF Goodrich tires and custom wheels. I'm just glad it's over. I hate buying cars.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

... I'm not sure which I hate more... Buying cars... Or fixing them!


----------



## MartyStrat54

When I was working for a large, multi brand auto dealership, I got a special deal on a used 1996 Camry. It had 42,000 miles and was garaged and non-smoker. I drove it for a while and then my sister in Chicago needed a car. (Se actually lived 95+ miles from her workplace.) I sold her the car for what I had in it. She had it until it hit 246,000 miles. Now my brother, who is a Toyota mechanic owns it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well hopefully I won't have to do either for awhile.

Just to be relevant, I did score an RCA 12AX7A today. Not great, but better'n nothing.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

A solid RCA 12AX7A is still a good "workhorse" of a tube. Cool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I really hope all this BS about the Backstage (content) gets settled soon. People are starting to get nasty with one another. It is hurting the forum.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> When I was working for a large, multi brand auto dealership, I got a special deal on a used 1996 Camry. It had 42,000 miles and was garaged and non-smoker. I drove it for a while and then my sister in Chicago needed a car. (Se actually lived 95+ miles from her workplace.) I sold her the car for what I had in it. She had it until it hit 246,000 miles. Now my brother, who is a Toyota mechanic owns it.



Yeah, those things will drive forever. The paint is a little oxidized on the hood but it's coming around. Just needs a little elbow grease.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've sold a bunch of those RCA D-getter tubes. They ain't bad.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I really hope all this BS about the Backstage (content) gets settled soon. People are starting to get nasty with one another. It is hurting the forum.



I try to stay away from the politial/religion threads. I still get sucked in occasionally but I've been doing better lately. There are certain attitudes and opinions that really piss me off. I've just quit reading them. Too many trolls just trying to stir shit up.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've sold a bunch of those RCA D-getter tubes. They ain't bad.



This is a later production with the halo getter and short plates. Flat sided micas, too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> I really hope all this BS about the Backstage (content) gets settled soon. People are starting to get nasty with one another. It is hurting the forum.



Huh?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> This is a later production with the halo getter and short plates. Flat sided micas, too.



Don't think I've seen an RCA w/ a D-Getter...


----------



## RiverRatt

You have to go back a ways.... 90% of the RCA's that I've owned have been the mid to late-60's production. I'm not a fan of late 60's to early 70's preamp tubes in general. I don't have a lot of use for I63 Mullards, either. The short plates may not be as microphonic, but they just don't sound as good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hard to believe that another summer has gone by (quickly). I'm going to that big Winfield, Kansas four day music festival. Remember last year we had a tornado on the ground a half mile from the fair grounds. I will head out a day early to get my camping spot. It should be a blast. My sister from Las Vegas sings there and I will be camping with her and her husband. I take my Ford van and put an mini fridge in it with two large ice chests. I have a nice foam and air mattress for a bed. I couldn't believe all the cool food I got to eat. My sister has been going for like 17 years and she camps with the same people every year. They actually set up a dedicated tent for cooking. One guy made brisket for everyone. Every night I had something good to eat. Of course I have stuff on ice to eat during the day.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds like a good time. It's still too f'in hot here to get out and do anything like that.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hard to believe that another summer has gone by (quickly). I'm going to that big Winfield, Kansas four day music festival. Remember last year we had a tornado on the ground a half mile from the fair grounds. I will head out a day early to get my camping spot. It should be a blast. My sister from Las Vegas sings there and I will be camping with her and her husband. I take my Ford van and put an mini fridge in it with two large ice chests. I have a nice foam and air mattress for a bed. I couldn't believe all the cool food I got to eat. My sister has been going for like 17 years and she camps with the same people every year. They actually set up a dedicated tent for cooking. One guy made brisket for everyone. Every night I had something good to eat. Of course I have stuff on ice to eat during the day.





RiverRatt said:


> Sounds like a good time. It's still too f'in hot here to get out and do anything like that.




Sounds like a good time. Today was pretty nice here (likely a side effect of the hurricane on the coast cooling things down inland a bit).

I Am hoping to catch the Kentucky Head Hunters at the Southern Fried Festival next month... The weather will hopefully be much nicer yet by then (but I'm new to the south, so I could be completely wrong too). Either way... Live music kicks butt!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's a new smilie off of one of those nasty Backstage threads. Sort of tells the tale.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Nice. Just folks tryin' to stir up crap, eh? Oh well. It's pointless, so really it's just too bad for them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the sad part is it involves about 20 to 25 forum members and they are trying to speak for the entire forum. That ain't gonna happen. I don't even know why it started, but apparently it must have been festering for a while, because this thing has boiled over.


----------



## MM54

Yeah, back when there was one or two threads of political content, I kept up with them and stuff, but now it's just stupid and I'm pretty much only in The Backstage for the car thread and passing through to the Afterhours section.


----------



## johnfv

Just got in from a great gig - not sleepy yet. Played my 18W TMB tonight, love those EL84s when they are working hard. Van Wilks, one of the great Texas guitarists (that you likely have not heard of) came and sat in with us for a few songs - a real honor. Hopefully we got some live recordings that I can post eventually. Since there was already discussion here of Toyotas from the early 90s I figure this isn't too far OT... My '93 Supra - a garage queen, still a blast to drive.


----------



## sccloser

I have a 2003 Chevy Impala with 242,000 miles on it. Hope to get about 300k or more out of it.
Yes, the summer has passed by pretty quickly.
What's going on over in backstage? I commented a few times over there but I really try to stay out of some of the discussions. They had a good one going about selling your soul for record deals...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a tick got under the horse's saddle and all hell has broke loose. Adwex was gone for a while, but he is back. So far he has not intervened.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Remember our "gay" buddy, Leadguitarist999. I left him a message on his home page and now he has been leaving me "fuck off" messages on my home page. I think I upset him. Funny thing is, he didn't have but 24 post and he was asking me what thread it was that he offended me. Pretty sad.


----------



## RiverRatt

This forum for the most part has always been a friendly place for discussion, with two or three notable exceptions. I'm not talking about the grouches or the ones who are doing all the tongue-in-cheek shit-stirring. I can handle those guys just fine. It's the guys who are blasting everyone for not pissing toward the same side of the toilet as they are that are getting on my nerves. My religious and political views are my own damned business and I don't have to justify them to anyone but myself. I'm trying not to even look at the backstage.

Now, I think I'm going to open up a St. Pauli and throw some chops on the grill and later there's a few things I want to do with the Marshall and Les Paul, like get mellow and work out a couple of riffs that are stuck in my head. Chillin' and grillin' first, though.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I'm trying not to even look at the backstage.



It's like a trainwreck...you just can't look away...

I'll spout an opinion now and then, but I try to do it respectfully and politely.  I will discuss and even debate topics/issues but I don't like to get into heeded arguments for argument's sake. 

Now this thing with the US AG and Gibson irks the crap out of me..


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> It's like a trainwreck...you just can't look away...
> 
> I'll spout an opinion now and then, but I try to do it respectfully and politely. I will discuss and even debate topics/issues but I don't like to get into heeded arguments for argument's sake.
> 
> Now this thing with the US AG and Gibson irks the crap out of me..



I wont look, I wont look.............crap, I looked! 

I'm on vacation for a few days and BAM! Everybody is fighting! What a mess...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I was messing around with my preamp tubes the other day and said that the Raytheon belonged in V2? Well I've about decided that a long plate Mullard belongs in V1, at least in the Vintage Modern. I had already gotten rid of the DSL when that tube came along. I would have liked to hear it in a DSL. 

This is The 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2, a Sylvania in V3, and a Sonotone that's about 9 points away from balanced on the B&K in V4. The amp is on the HDR with just the Les Paul straight in, body about 2.5, detail at around 5. This amp likes a little presence, too. It's usually on 4 depending. Bass 5, Mid 6, Treble 8.

bells2.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Just got in from a great gig - not sleepy yet. Played my 18W TMB tonight, love those EL84s when they are working hard. Van Wilks, one of the great Texas guitarists (that you likely have not heard of) came and sat in with us for a few songs - a real honor. Hopefully we got some live recordings that I can post eventually. Since there was already discussion here of Toyotas from the early 90s I figure this isn't too far OT... My '93 Supra - a garage queen, still a blast to drive.



John, that is one nice car. I always wanted a Supra in a bad way. I bullshitted my way into a test drive in a convertible Supra back around 1986. I kept it out for like 30 minutes. I went to show it off to college buds and my wife (then girlfriend). Talk about a pissed off salesman when I got back! It's a wonder I didn't get the cops called on me.

I'm finding a lot to like about the Camry. It's a damned good car. To put icing on the cake, it came with a JVC stereo that plays SD cards and has a line in for my iPod.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> This is The 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2, a Sylvania in V3, and a Sonotone that's about 9 points away from balanced on the B&K in V4. The amp is on the HDR with just the Les Paul straight in, body about 2.5, detail at around 5. This amp likes a little presence, too. It's usually on 4 depending. Bass 5, Mid 6, Treble 8.
> 
> bells2.mp3



Was that the VM? Sounded great! Didn't know a vm could sound like that.

BTW...I used to have a 1985 Supra. I bought it after I got out the navy and started college. It was a pretty cool car and a chick magnet!


----------



## BluesRocker

sccloser said:


> Was that the VM? Sounded great! Didn't know a vm could sound like that.
> 
> BTW...I used to have a 1985 Supra. I bought it after I got out the navy and started college. It was a pretty cool car and a chick magnet!



I just listened to the clip.. Yeah that would be the VM and a 4 pack of greenbacks


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Was that the VM? Sounded great! Didn't know a vm could sound like that.



Thanks. It can sound like that with the right tubes!  That's why I listed what I'm running in it. You have to get the volume up pretty good to get a really nice tone, though. I wish I could afford to try a set of real NOS KT66's, but the Genalex RI's that Cody had in it sound great.

Seriously, the VM is a badass amp. It's got a lot of great tones in it but you have to learn how to dial in a tone that works for you, way more so than a DSL or similar Marshall. Once you get the hang of it, there's not many classic Marshall tones it won't do, especially with a good OD and EQ.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am glad you like it Alan.. The LDR mode boosted with a clean boost is pretty awesome..

Also try the body at 6 and detail at 4 and hit the mid boost on.. Total Warren Haynes heaven there..


----------



## RiverRatt

What's not to like? It sounds more like the Marshall tone I've always had in my head than any other amp I've ever played. 

Yeah, I like that WH tone you're describing, but I can't get it to record worth a damn. It always sounds too bassy and muddy on the recording.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hmm thats weird.. I could always get it right.. 

I had the VM set to the WH tone and my Soldano HR50+ side by side and it was damn near identical.. The VM lacked a bit of compression to it...But other than that it was spot on


----------



## RiverRatt

Part of my problem is that I need to get a decent recording mic. My SM57 took a shit on me and I'm having to use an SM58. I know they are pretty close performance-wise, but I think a good SM57 sounds better on a guitar amp. I shouldn't complain - I've probably had the thing for 15 years and it always did me right. I think I mentioned wanting to try that Sennheiser E609 - it's supposed to be a kick-ass amp mic.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah those are bad ass..

This is the Soldano I had.. Mind the shitty playing at the end.. I got carried away and lost at the same time.. Hell.. Just mind the playing all together.. lol
http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/255224_jeom8/heavyriff122510.mp3


----------



## sccloser

Recording can be tricky. Me and a buddy were recording a track with a strat through a 60's Gibson Skylark amp about 10 or more years ago. We had 3 or 4 US strats that we were using. None sounded good in the recording, though they all sounded great there in the room. Then we tried a little MIM strat we had lying around. In the room, it did not sound nearly as good as the US models, but on the recording it sounded great! It sounded like the best live US model.
Sometimes it is hard to get what you hear in the room on the recording.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Part of my problem is that I need to get a decent recording mic. My SM57 took a shit on me and I'm having to use an SM58. I know they are pretty close performance-wise, but I think a good SM57 sounds better on a guitar amp. I shouldn't complain - I've probably had the thing for 15 years and it always did me right. I think I mentioned wanting to try that Sennheiser E609 - it's supposed to be a kick-ass amp mic.



I bought a sm57 beta mic for my cab a couple of years ago. Once at practice, I used it for vocals and it sounded great ( I had been using an old sm48 I bought in 1990). So, I went out and got a sm57 for the cab and I sing my back ups through the beta.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds good to me, Cody! Yeah, I can see copping that tone with the VM.


----------



## BluesRocker

I need to get me a 57.. I prolly will one day when I am out of college and may have some spare change to get one.. lol


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I bought a sm57 beta mic for my cab a couple of years ago. Once at practice, I used it for vocals and it sounded great ( I had been using an old sm48 I bought in 1990). So, I went out and got a sm57 for the cab and I sing my back ups through the beta.



We had a sound guy and I was always getting into it with him. He would record everything with these EV condenser mics pointed straight at the sound source. It was the most horrible mix you ever heard. I tried to get him to at least get some 58's in as ambient mics but hell no, he had to have those fancy-ass condensers.


----------



## sccloser

The beta sounds great, but to me it is better for my vocals than for my cab. The 57 does fine on the cab. I've had sound guys want to run there own mics on my cab (not really high end mics) and I always insist on my own 57 for my cab and my beta for my vocals.


----------



## sccloser

Best sound guy we had was at an event we played in April. He was real cool and asked me which cab I wanted mic'd, did I have a mic I wanted to use, did I want to position it, etc. In other words, he was allowing me some control over my sound/tone if I wanted to have it. He was like that with all of the band. Best we ever sounded.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> John, that is one nice car...


Thanks Alan, I've been a Toyota fan a long time. Have also owned an MR2 and 3 Trucks (the first 2 were wrecked). The Camry is a good car, glad to hear that one kept you alive!


----------



## johnfv

sccloser said:


> Recording can be tricky...Sometimes it is hard to get what you hear in the room on the recording.


Very true. Sometimes it takes something that sounds extreme in the room to give something that fits well but cuts through a mix. While you can be pretty confident that a 57 close mic'd on a good amp will sound good, if you are willing to experiment around with different amps, guitars and mics (and actually record it to hear how it works in the song) you can find some very nice surprises.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tung-Sol made a bunch of sweet power tubes, like the 6550, but their 12AX7's are just so-so as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Looks like you are well on your way to getting a great stash of tubes.
> 
> Since you have a DR, can you advise me on something. I've had guys with DR's claim that they can hear a tonal change by rolling tubes in V2. Is this the case with you?



Sorry for the slow reply.
I havent even bothered, as I didn't expect to hear a difference, but I'll give it a go when i practice next time (not until thursday sadly)...ill keep you posted.


----------



## sccloser

I have one or two old Tung Sol 12ax7's from the early 60's. They do not sound very good in v1 to me. The CP Tung Sol's sound better than the NOS in v1 IMO.


----------



## sccloser

I scored Two Telefunken 12ax7's today. I found a Midland model 14-591 Preamp in a shop and it had two Tele 12ax7's in it. I offered the guy $40 for the tubes, but he didn't want to sell them out of the amp. So I ended up buying the whole enchilada for $75. Hope the tubes are at least worth that. They look to have long, black plates. 

Any info?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know of any black plate Telefunkens. All the ones I've run across have 17mm smooth or ribbed gray plates.

Where is everybody? The whole forum has been slow today.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I have one or two old Tung Sol 12ax7's from the early 60's. They do not sound very good in v1 to me. The CP Tung Sol's sound better than the NOS in v1 IMO.



Those old Tung-Sol 12AX7's are nice tubes in a Fender or similar amp. They have a very smooth, even response. Like most USA tubes, they aren't particularly strong in the mids which is why they don't do much good in a Marshall. They are fine in a Marshall as a cathode follower/tone stack driver or phase inverter, though.


----------



## MM54

I had a NOS tung-sol (relabeled as Zenith) I sold to Josh (I think) a while ago. Wasn't too fond of it, I had used it a couple times as a PI but that's it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I was messing around with my preamp tubes the other day and said that the Raytheon belonged in V2? Well I've about decided that a long plate Mullard belongs in V1, at least in the Vintage Modern. I had already gotten rid of the DSL when that tube came along. I would have liked to hear it in a DSL.
> 
> This is The 1958 Mullard in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2, a Sylvania in V3, and a Sonotone that's about 9 points away from balanced on the B&K in V4. The amp is on the HDR with just the Les Paul straight in, body about 2.5, detail at around 5. This amp likes a little presence, too. It's usually on 4 depending. Bass 5, Mid 6, Treble 8.
> 
> bells2.mp3





sccloser said:


> Was that the VM? Sounded great! Didn't know a vm could sound like that...



That sounds totally killer Alan. Smokin' tone on that bad boy. Rock on!

How long have you had a VM?


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know of any black plate Telefunkens. All the ones I've run across have 17mm smooth or ribbed gray plates.
> 
> Where is everybody? The whole forum has been slow today.



Ok...not black plates...lighting in shop was poor. They are gray plates. One is smooth the other is ribbed. Both tested very good on my tester. The smooth plate has a little larger logo, ecc83 and made in Germany printed on it. Also has B4202201 running vertical on the side.
Theribbed plate has a little smaller tele logo. Made in western germany printed on it. Looks like it had something else that is worn off.
Haven't tried them yet. We've had storms and right now my cable, phone and inet are out and I am on my phone so no pics yet.
Whtcha think? My first teles! Did I do good or do I need more studying under the masters...haha!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys!!

Finally, NGD! The 700 showed up!!! 

Tested two known good 12ax7's and an EL-34, everything seemed fine. Then, HEART ATTACK! Tested a 3rd 12 ax7, and the meter would not read! Took the face plate off (copper Marty!!!!!) re-set the rectifier and 6bn8 and viola! Back on track!!!

She's a beauty!

















Also got 9 pin and an octal soccet savers. 


Hey, I read that you should not use contact cleaner on *any* tube testers. You guys heard anything kike this???


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hope it had a copper top. It is older than any 707. I think they used the copper on the 707's for two years and then switched over to aluminum.

I don't know why contact cleaner would be harmful?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I hope it had a copper top. It is older than any 707. I think they used the copper on the 707's for two years and then switched over to aluminum.
> 
> I don't know why contact cleaner would be harmful?



Yep, copper top my friend! (it's visible in pic # 3)

This the quote I read 

"DO NOT USE any type of contact cleaner (including Deoxit). It will affect (increase) leakage reading on certain tube testers that have amplified 20meg to 100meg capability." 

Afters some brain searching I remembered where I saw the original, this was on a spec sheet included with my socket savers.


----------



## sccloser

Here is a pic of the tele smooth plate. Pic's did not come out very good for me today.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Yep, copper top my friend! (it's visible in pic # 3)
> 
> This the quote I read
> 
> "DO NOT USE any type of contact cleaner (including Deoxit). It will affect (increase) leakage reading on certain tube testers that have amplified 20meg to 100meg capability."
> 
> Afters some brain searching I remembered where I saw the original, this was on a spec sheet included with my socket savers.



I think the cleaner is fine on everything except the push switches. That's what I was told AFTER I had sprayed contact cleaner on every movable part. 

My tester has an aluminum panel with a meter date of June 1968.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Here is a pic of the tele smooth plate. Pic's did not come out very good for me today.



Does that thing have silver plates? The printing looks silver, too. I'd like to see a good clear pic of that tube. Something's strange about that if I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing. Try backing off a few feet from the tube and zooming in close. You won't get as much burn out from the flash that way. A lighter background will help, too.


----------



## sccloser

The plates are gray and smooth. The printing is kinda gold/brown colored. I have taken about 20 pics and that was the best. Lighter backgrounds are not working for me today...they come out dark with no flash. Darker backgrounds get too much flash. Real PITA.


----------



## sccloser

Another 15 pics and I got this...I had to take the pic in the dark to get it to even show up this good. I am not a photographer.


----------



## MM54

Turn off your flash and set up good ambient lighting. Works for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Another 15 pics and I got this...I had to take the pic in the dark to get it to even show up this good. I am not a photographer.



That looks more like it. Is this one of the two you scavenged from the Midland preamp? If they test good (and have a diamond on the bottom) you did good. Smooth plate Tele's have an attack and harmonics that no other tube matches. Put some Chinese glass in the preamp and sell it for what you can. 

Be careful with the print on that Tele, too. It's in really good shape and one careless touch can literally wipe it out.


----------



## sccloser

The other one has a smaller log and ribbed plates. It says made in Western Germany on it. What can you tell me about it?


----------



## sccloser

Oh, and about what are they worth?


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys,

Alan - I stopped in and picked up those Mullards tonight. I'm a little disappointing that they tested lower than I would have liked (20/22 and 22/23), passing but just barely. 






Date codes read f91a, BBC????


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Oh, and about what are they worth?



Hey Sc,

If they test good, they are going for as much as $100 each. Just depends on how bad some one wants them.


----------



## sccloser

Makes me feel good! I had to by the entire phono preamp for $75 to get them. I'll put some cheapie tubes back in the preamp and try to sell it for whatever I can get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

$50 to $60 is a more realistic price for a Telefunken.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Note - As much as $100.

I did not mean to be misleading. From what I am seeing on Fleabay they are fetching an average of $60 to $75, more for matched pairs.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> The other one has a smaller log and ribbed plates. It says made in Western Germany on it. What can you tell me about it?



Does it have a diamond molded into the bottom of the glass? If it does, it's most likely a later production Telefunken. If it doesn't have a diamond or has seams in the top of the glass, it was probably made by Siemens & Halske or some other Philips company. In this picture, the tube on the right has a diamond, the one on the left doesn't. Both were labeled as Telefunkens, identical construction and both have seams on top and ribbed plates, just proving that there are some tubes out there that defy identification.


----------



## sccloser

Diamonds on bottom...no seems on either. One thing I noticed is the print is kind of gold colored on the smooth plate. On the ribbed plate the print is in white.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> $50 to $60 is a more realistic price for a Telefunken.



Well, at $50 each then I still came out good. Hope to have only $25 to $40 in the pair after I sell off the little preamp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Alan - I stopped in and picked up those Mullards tonight. I'm a little disappointing that they tested lower than I would have liked (20/22 and 22/23), passing but just barely.
> 
> Date codes read f91a, BBC????



If the second code reads "B8C" it's a 1958 Blackburn made in March. That looks about right from what I can tell. f9 is the type code for ECC83's that test low for microphonics. That's what that 1958 I picked up has on it, too.


----------



## sccloser

Alan, what's the B4202201 on the smooth plate Tele mean?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> If the second code reads "B8C" it's a 1958 Blackburn made in March. That looks about right from what I can tell. f9 is the type code for ECC83's that test low for microphonics. That's what that 1958 I picked up has on it, too.



Thanks Alan! 

The screens are in great shape, but the date codes are a little hard to make out. 

What about the 138 at the top of the front screen? Any ideas???


----------



## sccloser

B4202201
I'm guessing made in Berlin, 
February 24, 1972?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Alan - I stopped in and picked up those Mullards tonight. I'm a little disappointing that they tested lower than I would have liked (20/22 and 22/23), passing but just barely.



Sorry to hear that. They probably were great tubes for a long time. Even in their present state, they would probably be good in a Fender.



> HINT: on all B&K 700 and 707 test your 12AX7 at 100% sensitivity. Use a trusted tube to show you what your meter reading should be and write that down as your standard. Or use the digital meter and find the sense that will produce 100% with your trusted tube. Now you have a better test with better resolution. The B&K 22% tube-chart note is one of their catch-all readings for tubes that won't push the meter to full scale. The Sense control is just a volume control for the meter and in no way affects the testing load or parameters.



That's interesting. That means you take a known good tube that is 100 percent on say a Hickok and then crank the sensitivity all the way and use that as your most accurate "good, 100 percent" reading.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I finally have a handle on my tester. It needs to be calibrated at 117VAC, but my wall voltage is closer to 124VAC. The 6v heater setting is putting out around 6.5v. That would probably be enough to push the test results 10-15% higher than normal. I'm not buying a Variac just to calibrate my tester. I may have to rig up a dimmer switch or something to get it down to 117. I wish the B&K had a line adjustment rather than the two #55 lamp setup. 

I knew that the sensitivity was basically a volume control for the meter, but I'd rather go by B&K's scale than one improvised with another tester. If tubes start testing consistently below 22 or really high on the scale, I know something is wrong. I wouldn't feel comfortable using an arbitrary scale based on one tube's score.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear that. They probably were great tubes for a long time. Even in their present state, they would probably be good in a Fender.
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting. That means you take a known good tube that is 100 percent on say a Hickok and then crank the sensitivity all the way and use that as your most accurate "good, 100 percent" reading.



On my tester, the guide book says to set the sensitivity to 70% for 12ax7's. What exactly does that control?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> B4202201
> I'm guessing made in Berlin,
> February 24, 1972?



I've never had enough Telefunkens on-hand to justify trying to learn their date codes. It's pretty rare to find one with all the print still intact. Philips codes all follow the same system. I can date Mullards or other Philips tubes at a glance but not many companies had such a good system, and even among the Philips brands some followed the convention and some didn't. Matsushita only uses the year and month code stamped twice on the tube, i.e. 9H 9H would be a 1959 tube made in September.


----------



## sccloser

Also, on my tester, the best I have ever had a tube test was a few NOS tubes that I had and they tested 80%. I never had anything above 80%. New CP tubes usually test 60% to 70% which is in the good range on the meter. The 2 Tele's I scored both tested 70%. I guess it could use to be calibrated.


----------



## RiverRatt

What kind of tester do you have SC? I can't keep track of everybody.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I've never had enough Telefunkens on-hand to justify trying to learn their date codes. It's pretty rare to find one with all the print still intact. Philips codes all follow the same system. I can date Mullards or other Philips tubes at a glance but not many companies had such a good system, and even among the Philips brands some followed the convention and some didn't. Matsushita only uses the year and month code stamped twice on the tube, i.e. 9H 9H would be a 1959 tube made in September.



From what I've seen on the net Tele's after 68 used this code. B is berlin, U is for Umba (?) the 2nd and first digit is the day. The 3rd and 5th digit is the month and the 4th digit is the last number of the year.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> What kind of tester do you have SC? I can't keep track of everybody.



Accurate Tube Tester Model 157, circa 1963. My dad purchased it new and used it the rest of his career. I inherited it.


----------



## sccloser

It is a small portable tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

U is for the Ulm factory which was more television picture tubes than receiving tubes. I've never found a concise guide to Telefunken tubes. There's just not enough info out there.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear that. They probably were great tubes for a long time. Even in their present state, they would probably be good in a Fender.
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting. That means you take a known good tube that is 100 percent on say a Hickok and then crank the sensitivity all the way and use that as your most accurate "good, 100 percent" reading.



Wow! Interesting Marty! Thanks!

Tonight I got my socket savers installed and I started going through my stock to see what is what. I have noticed that even my NEW tubes are testing at 30 at best. So if 22 is low and 30 is high, that would represent a pretty small parameter.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MM54 said:


> I had a NOS tung-sol (relabeled as Zenith) I sold to Josh (I think) a while ago. Wasn't too fond of it, I had used it a couple times as a PI but that's it.



Yeah... That was me. It's been a great tube in my TSL.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Also, on my tester, the best I have ever had a tube test was a few NOS tubes that I had and they tested 80%. I never had anything above 80%. New CP tubes usually test 60% to 70% which is in the good range on the meter. The 2 Tele's I scored both tested 70%. I guess it could use to be calibrated.



I found a schematic for your tester. There doesn't appear to be much in it that could go wrong. There's a .01uf cap, a 470R, a 1.8k and a 1.8m resistor and that's about it. Check those components and replace any bad ones, then hook up a DMM to pins 4 and 5 of socket #1 and check that the transformer is supplying the correct voltage on all the heater settings. If that checks out and the sockets are all tight, you should be good to go.


----------



## RiverRatt

Make sure the tester is set for 12AX7 types before trying the above... I need to go to bed!


----------



## sccloser

Where'd you find the schematic? I might check it out sometime and replace those parts. I do not know if anything has ever been done to it or not.


----------



## sccloser

This is what I found on the web...I'll re-post it here for everyone's info:

T*elefunken production code for tubes produced after 1968.*

Mostly you will find three codes on the tube.

- Two 3 digit codes on top or base of the tube like “244″.
This is the batch code and was used for warranty purposes only.

- On the side or at the front of the tube there is a 7 digit code that starts with a letter “B” or “U” and sometimes ends with a letter like “f”.

B = Berlin, Germany
U= Ulm, Germany

We only need the first 5 digits starting from the left side in order to decode the manufacture date.

Example: U5100611 = Ulm, June 15, 1970

U = Ulm

Day = Reverse the first and second digit => 15
Month = Third and fifth digit => 06 =>June
Year = fourth digit is last digit of the year => 0 => 1970

Example: B9016100 = Berlin, November 9, 1976

B = Berlin

Day = Reverse the 1st and 2nd digit => 9
Month = 3rd and 5th digit => 11 => November
Year = 4th digit is last digit of the year => 6 => 1976

Genuine Telefunken tubes like EL84, ECC83 and ECC82 etc. have a Diamond logo <> mark in the glass between the pins. The production code on the tube should be the same as on the flap of the original tube box. If this is missing then most likely it is made by Siemens or another manufacture. If you find an extra number like “1″ behind the model number on the box it means that it was made in Germany. If the tube was manufactured outside Germany it should be marked with “2″.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## sccloser

Muchas Gracias!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I know that you went to bed. When I got my first 707, one of the things I wondered about was the fact that the 12AX7 was tested with 12V on the heaters. You and I both know that you would get a slightly higher reading if the heater voltage was increased to 12.6V.

Before I joined this forum, I was an everyday member of the Antique Radio Forum. I have been going back over there more as they have zero percent bullshit on that forum. It's nice to go someplace and have tube discussions with 70 year old men who can identify almost any tube by a picture. Hell, there is even a dedicated thread for a #83 rectifier tube. I feel like a grade schooler compared to some of these guys. Of course, a lot of these guys are old ham operators. Everyone over there is very courteous. It's a shame the Marshall Forum can't run in the same way. I hope the drama will be over soon.


----------



## Lowlife

As i almost never cruise beyond "the workshop", "the amps" and "the tone zone" i dont think the drama is a problem in this forum, admitted it pops up when some people give bad advice.

Then again I'm used to MMO game forums, with high levels of background drama and e-peen flexing.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Before I joined this forum, I was an everyday member of the Antique Radio Forum. I have been going back over there more as they have zero percent bullshit on that forum. It's nice to go someplace and have tube discussions with 70 year old men who can identify almost any tube by a picture. Hell, there is even a dedicated thread for a #83 rectifier tube. I feel like a grade schooler compared to some of these guys. Of course, a lot of these guys are old ham operators. Everyone over there is very courteous. It's a shame the Marshall Forum can't run in the same way. I hope the drama will be over soon.



I've been there once or twice (never registered, just lurked), it seems like an awesome place.



Lowlife said:


> As i almost never cruise beyond "the workshop", "the amps" and "the tone zone" i dont think the drama is a problem in this forum, admitted it pops up when some people give bad advice.
> 
> Then again I'm used to MMO game forums, with high levels of background drama and e-peen flexing.



Oh God, MMO forums... kill me now


----------



## sccloser

Where is everyone tonight?

I score two little telefunken ecc83's and everyone goes and hides so they don't have to chat with me about it...


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Where is everyone tonight?
> 
> I score two little telefunken ecc83's and everyone goes and hides so they don't have to chat with me about it...



Hey Sc

Sorry, got tied up tonight.

Heres to Teles!


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-I know that you went to bed. When I got my first 707, one of the things I wondered about was the fact that the 12AX7 was tested with 12V on the heaters. You and I both know that you would get a slightly higher reading if the heater voltage was increased to 12.6V.
> 
> Before I joined this forum, I was an everyday member of the Antique Radio Forum. I have been going back over there more as they have zero percent bullshit on that forum. It's nice to go someplace and have tube discussions with 70 year old men who can identify almost any tube by a picture. Hell, there is even a dedicated thread for a #83 rectifier tube. I feel like a grade schooler compared to some of these guys. Of course, a lot of these guys are old ham operators. Everyone over there is very courteous. It's a shame the Marshall Forum can't run in the same way. I hope the drama will be over soon.



I hate seeing everybody fracturing into sub groups again. 

Hey, I made it to the ham radio place today. All the tubes were in big bins and had to be brought down one at a time. Mostly old radio tubes, not much there. As I am digging, one of the old guys working there comes over and says "you dont want to waste your time on that, none of them will test strong any way, go see this guy" and gives me a name and a number for a guy here in town. Then he says "he has thousands of tubes, he will have what you are looking for". The plot thickens!!


----------



## Lowlife

sccloser said:


> Where is everyone tonight?
> 
> I score two little telefunken ecc83's and everyone goes and hides so they don't have to chat with me about it...



Sorry, I forgot what was important, i love my Telefunken, courtesy of my late granddad, who left a handfull of both used and a few in unopened boxes...My clean channel has never sounded better...

Actually now I tossed in a Raytheon 12BZ7 for testing purposes...but i know ill telefunk it up again.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I hate seeing everybody fracturing into sub groups again.
> 
> Hey, I made it to the ham radio place today. All the tubes were in big bins and had to be brought down one at a time. Mostly old radio tubes, not much there. As I am digging, one of the old guys working there comes over and says "you dont want to waste your time on that, none of them will test strong any way, go see this guy" and gives me a name and a number for a guy here in town. Then he says "he has thousands of tubes, he will have what you are looking for". The plot thickens!!



This sounds promising!

Congrats on the new tester too!


----------



## RiverRatt

Josh, your tubes are on the way. Cody, your strap lock buttons are on the way. Sorry it took me so long. It's been hectic around here lately.

I'm going to abuse the Les Paul for awhile. I had to cover a football game tonight and damn it, it's STILL TOO HOT here. I think it was up close to 100 again today.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This sounds promising!
> 
> Congrats on the new tester too!



Thanks Joe!!!

Didn't get there today, got too busy at work. I'll keep ya posted! 

Evening Alan, Sc, Marty and Lowlife!


----------



## sccloser

Sometime this weekend I will try out the tele's in my mkiii. Alan says the smooth plate should sound good, but what can I expect from the ribbed plate tele? If I use a tele in v1, what would compliment it in v2 in the mkiii?


----------



## RiverRatt

Try everything you've got in V2. You never know what's going to sound great in which amp or what will sound good to you. Am I right, or isn't V2a also a gain stage in that amp? If so, I'd definitely recommend you get a Raytheon black plate if you don't already have one.


----------



## sccloser

Not sure if it is or not. It has 3 12ax7's, v1, v2 and the pi. Model 2500 mkiii dual master vol.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That tube layout is like a MV 800. V1A/B is the gain, V2A/B is the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower and then the PI.

However, even in an amp like this, I still run a Black Plate in V2 because of the Tone Stack.


----------



## brp

Hey, Marty (or anyone else) I'd really like to replace the tubes in my Vox Night Train NT15 with whatever would unlock it's full potential and best possible tone, but I have no idea what that might be.
Any suggestions?
If you'd recommend something NOS that you also have for sale that would be great too.
Don't want to spend a premium, but something that would be a noticeable upgrade from the stock tubes.
I like the stock tone but improvement would be great....


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> Hey, Marty (or anyone else) I'd really like to replace the tubes in my Vox Night Train NT15 with whatever would unlock it's full potential and best possible tone, but I have no idea what that might be.
> Any suggestions?
> If you'd recommend something NOS that you also have for sale that would be great too.
> Don't want to spend a premium, but something that would be a noticeable upgrade from the stock tubes.
> I like the stock tone but improvement would be great....



Get a hold of JOE (SolarBurn). He has that exact amp and has rolled a bunch of tubes in it.

I would go with NOS, but Joe can tell you what CP's he's rolled in it.

You should try to snag a couple of RCA's, GE's, or Sylvania's for it. Maybe not the tone of a Telefunken, but better than the CP's.


----------



## brp

Thanks, I will do that.
I'm a complete noob at rolling tubes.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Josh, your tubes are on the way. Cody, your strap lock buttons are on the way. Sorry it took me so long. It's been hectic around here lately.
> 
> I'm going to abuse the Les Paul for awhile. I had to cover a football game tonight and damn it, it's STILL TOO HOT here. I think it was up close to 100 again today.



No hurries, no worries, mate!  And really... Thank you Alan.

Yeah it went and got itself hot again here too! Ugh...


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I know this is the wrong thread to say it in, but MY PLAYING SUCKS TODAY!!!

pff...that feels a lot better already.


----------



## MM54

My playing sucks every day


----------



## solarburn

Man I have days like that. Like my fingers are full of sludge...


----------



## BluesRocker

I hate it when your playing sucks at a gig.. No one else notices but it does suck that you know.. Same with tone


Thanks Alan.. No worries or rush.. I kinda forgot about them


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Hey, Marty (or anyone else) I'd really like to replace the tubes in my Vox Night Train NT15 with whatever would unlock it's full potential and best possible tone, but I have no idea what that might be.
> Any suggestions?
> If you'd recommend something NOS that you also have for sale that would be great too.
> Don't want to spend a premium, but something that would be a noticeable upgrade from the stock tubes.
> I like the stock tone but improvement would be great....



The best tone I have got out of my NT was due to the power tubes I used and boost pedal. Putting in good preamp tubes help too. I wanted to tame some of the highs on the bright channel but not make the thick channel overly dark either. You have to remember the thick channel bypasses the amps tone stack and can't be eq'd unless you have a pedal to do so. The other thing I did to make it sound better was boost it with my TOD pedal. Adding just a bit of boost really helps the bright side and tightens/punches through the thick. Really I don't run mine without certain tubes in it and the boost. The amp sounds kind of limp without it now. I still get guitar roll off to clean but with the added benefit of more punch when I'm in overdrive with the amp.

These are the tools I use before I have a tech make circuit changes or just get rid of the amp..

1. Boost pedal(TOD)
2. Powertubes(RFT EL84's-my favorite EL84's and I've tried quite a few. Warm smokey overdrive.
3. Preamp tubes(RFT 12AX7 and an RCA in the PI. I like a neutral or balanced "sounding" tube in the PI. That way you get a good dose or flavor of your primary preamp tube especially on a 2 tube preamp.
4. Speaker-Veteran 30(smoother than a V30 with no high mid spike)
5. Strat with HSS. My other humbucking guitars like the above set up as well.

So using my ears I relaxed the bright voicing of the amp and tightened up the thick voicing. Took me a while to get it where I wanted it. Your taste is going be the deciding factor but what I did tames some issues I had with it and added some punch where I thought it needed it.


----------



## solarburn

I think there are times I can't connect musically. Don't feel it. When that happens its just mechanics...like a robot play'n the same old same old. A great way to break that up is learn a new song. I don't like taking too long of a break from playing cause my fingers lose their thickness on the ends and it hurts to bend and grab the strings like I like. I'll force myself to play a while each day just to keep them able.


----------



## sccloser

OK Tube Dudes...

What do you recommend for my Class 5?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What are you looking for? NOS or new?


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The best tone I have got out of my NT was due to the power tubes I used and boost pedal. Putting in good preamp tubes help too. I wanted to tame some of the highs on the bright channel but not make the thick channel overly dark either. You have to remember the thick channel bypasses the amps tone stack and can't be eq'd unless you have a pedal to do so. The other thing I did to make it sound better was boost it with my TOD pedal. Adding just a bit of boost really helps the bright side and tightens/punches through the thick. Really I don't run mine without certain tubes in it and the boost. The amp sounds kind of limp without it now. I still get guitar roll off to clean but with the added benefit of more punch when I'm in overdrive with the amp.
> 
> These are the tools I use before I have a tech make circuit changes or just get rid of the amp..
> 
> 1. Boost pedal(TOD)
> 2. Powertubes(RFT EL84's-my favorite EL84's and I've tried quite a few. Warm smokey overdrive.
> 3. Preamp tubes(RFT 12AX7 and an RCA in the PI. I like a neutral or balanced "sounding" tube in the PI. That way you get a good dose or flavor of your primary preamp tube especially on a 2 tube preamp.
> 4. Speaker-Veteran 30(smoother than a V30 with no high mid spike)
> 5. Strat with HSS. My other humbucking guitars like the above set up as well.
> 
> So using my ears I relaxed the bright voicing of the amp and tightened up the thick voicing. Took me a while to get it where I wanted it. Your taste is going be the deciding factor but what I did tames some issues I had with it and added some punch where I thought it needed it.



Thanks.
Yes, it's the excess brightness I have issue with more than anything.
I'm not sure what else I want out of it, I'd like to experiment though and see what it's capable of with different tubes.

I always use a boost with it (OFA modded SD-1), couldn't really use it now without it, as you eluded to. I also always use an eq, (vintage Boss GE-10).

Like I said I'm pretty happy with it just curious about it's other tonal possibilities and willing to buy some tubes to satisfy that curiousity.
I use it to record and it'd be nice if a selection of other tubes gave it more options to that end.
I'd also like to experiment with other 12AX7's in the single tube Blackheart BH1h that I use for recording.
If anyone could point me towards specific tubes... in addition or elaborating on what was already mentioned for me of course. Thanks guys.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thanks.
> Yes, it's the excess brightness I have issue with more than anything.
> I'm not sure what else I want out of it, I'd like to experiment though and see what it's capable of with different tubes.
> 
> I always use a boost with it (OFA modded SD-1), couldn't really use it now without it, as you eluded to. I also always use an eq, (vintage Boss GE-10).
> 
> Like I said I'm pretty happy with it just curious about it's other tonal possibilities and willing to buy some tubes to satisfy that curiousity.
> I use it to record and it'd be nice if a selection of other tubes gave it more options to that end.
> I'd also like to experiment with other 12AX7's in the single tube Blackheart BH1h that I use for recording.
> If anyone could point me towards specific tubes... in addition or elaborating on what was already mentioned for me of course. Thanks guys.



These will help alot with the brightness. They are worth every penny compared to others i have tried and some of them I liked. I'm a cheap bastard too! Seriously consider it. I've had mine for at least a year now and they are still sounding great. 

Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.


----------



## MM54

I guess this is a kind-of tube related question... What does RFT stand for?


----------



## solarburn

With an RFT12AX7 in the tone slot it will darken the highs a bit and give this neat meat characteristic to the mids. Depending on that slot you get some nice variations with the mids. I've put Miniwatts, Lorenz, Matsushitas, Mullards(all ANOS)and these sound good in it although these are brighter than the RFT's. They were really good on the thick voicing. I would use any of these in it. The Telefunkens were too bright I felt with this amp and the gear I use with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

"Radio Fernseh Technik" according to the Google results.

Strangely, I don't feel any better now for knowing that.


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> I guess this is a kind-of tube related question... What does RFT stand for?



I haven't a clue other than knowing they are east German production.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> "Radio Fernseh Technik" according to the Google results.
> 
> Strangely, I don't feel any better now for knowing that.



Haha! There ya go...


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> "Radio Fernseh Technik" according to the Google results.
> 
> Strangely, I don't feel any better now for knowing that.



Thanks! I do, but it may have something to do with knowing German (Thus Radio Fernseh Technik makes perfect sense to me as Radio-Television Technology). Telefunken makes perfect sense to me as well with it's meaning


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> These will help alot with the brightness. They are worth every penny compared to others i have tried and some of them I liked. I'm a cheap bastard too! Seriously consider it. I've had mine for at least a year now and they are still sounding great.
> 
> Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.




Thanks for the link and great input in your subsequent post too, man!

Marty, you got any of these for sale?
I'd rather deal with a fellow boarder than someone I know nothing about....


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thanks for the link and great input in your subsequent post too, man!
> 
> Marty, you got any of these for sale?
> I'd rather deal with a fellow boarder than someone I know nothing about....



Pretty sure he doesn't have them(RFT EL84's). That's why I got them there. I always hit him up first hehe.

He may have some RFT 12AX7's though...


----------



## brp

So you ordered the 84's from the link you posted?

Where are they shipping from, I haven't found that info on their site yet...


----------



## RiverRatt

Most of the German I know either came from Hogan's Heroes or beer packages. That and my grandad and other WWII guys who were around when I grew up. I learned what flederscheisse was at a fairly young age. One of the nastier weapons employed by allied airmen.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> So you ordered the 84's from the link you posted?
> 
> Where are they shipping from, I haven't found that info on their site yet...



A few times. I got all my RFT 12AX7's from them. Marty didn't have any at the time and I got the 84's plus some AT7's so I've done business with them a few times. No issues whatsoever! BEL's as well...

I believe they are in Texas...?


----------



## solarburn

Here we go...

At our inception, we started selling and swapping tubes from private collections of various ham and tube enthusiasts. Since then, Tubemonger has evolved into a business. This is still a hobby, as all of us at Tubemonger have regular careers in Texas and California’s Silicon Valley. Our mission is to provide you with fine tubes, and 100% satisfaction with your purchases (subject to Terms of Use on our site).

Pretty sure I remember them coming from Tehas!

Looks like Cali as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I bought a large batch of USA 12AX7's and it was a super sweet deal. 27 tubes. Four Sylvania Black Short Plates with square getters. These tested between 30-30 and 35-35. In the past, I got a hold of some of these and they didn't even test above 15. These are really nice. I took the 35-35 and tried it in my 401 and it sounded really sweet. Quiet as can be. Zero microphonics. Then there were five white label, pre-1960 RCA Black Plates with the square getters. These tested between 25-25 and 30-30. Three Matshushita Slant Getters that tested in the low 30's. Then there were some short plate Raytheons which are sort of rare. These tested nicely as well. In fact, nothing tested below 25. I also got four Raytheon Black Plates which was a pleasant surprise. The rest were red label RCA's, Sylvania Gray Plates and a few unknowns that were labeled Philco. Most of these tubes were pre-60's. The Raytheon BP's were made in 1962. What do you know...no GE's.

I paid $60 for all of them. 

Got in some nice ribbed plate Telefunkens. Man these are getting expensive.

Also got in six HAMMOND/AMPEREX red label tubes.

Then from my wholesaler, I got 20 high gain Sylvania's that look brand new, but they are organ pulls. Also, 20 Raytheon Black Plates.

Just trying to stay in the game.


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> A few times. I got all my RFT 12AX7's from them. Marty didn't have any at the time and I got the 84's plus some AT7's so I've done business with them a few times. No issues whatsoever!
> 
> I believe they are in Texas...?



Excellent. That's good to know.
I really appreciate the help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I have some of the RFT 12AX7's that I got in from Russia.


----------



## brp

I could use one of those in the Blackheart and...
if you could come up with a tone pack for the NT15 too?
Or would I be better to get those rft 84's from Texas for the power section?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Excellent. That's good to know.
> I really appreciate the help.



Looks like California hehe.

http://tubemonger.com.ipaddress.com/


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> I could use one of those in the Blackheart and...
> if you could come up with a tone pack for the NT15 too?
> Or would I be better to get those rft 84's from Texas for the power section?



Don't know if this was directed towards me. As JOE pointed out, the NT is a bright amp. The best tube for it in V1 is an RFT. I am not familiar with what V2 does in a Night Train. Does anyone know?

I would go with Joe's recommendation on the RFT EL84's. I only sell power tubes once in a while nowadays. It is very hard to find honest sellers and I was buying matched power tubes that weren't matched.

If you need a couple of RFT 12AX7's, I can help you out.


----------



## brp

Yes, It was directed at you and yes I may just hit you up about the rft 12ax7's. I assume I should just PM you about that yes?

I think Joe mentioned the v2 is a PI but I could be wrong, tube noob here


----------



## solarburn

martystrat54 said:


> well i bought a large batch of usa 12ax7's and it was a super sweet deal. 27 tubes. Four sylvania black short plates with square getters. These tested between 30-30 and 35-35. In the past, i got a hold of some of these and they didn't even test above 15. These are really nice. I took the 35-35 and tried it in my 401 and it sounded really sweet. Quiet as can be. Zero microphonics. Then there were five white label, pre-1960 rca black plates with the square getters. These tested between 25-25 and 30-30. Three matshushita slant getters that tested in the low 30's. Then there were some short plate raytheons which are sort of rare. These tested nicely as well. In fact, nothing tested below 25. I also got four raytheon black plates which was a pleasant surprise. The rest were red label rca's, sylvania gray plates and a few unknowns that were labeled philco. Most of these tubes were pre-60's. The raytheon bp's were made in 1962. What do you know...no ge's.
> 
> I paid $60 for all of them.
> 
> Got in some nice ribbed plate telefunkens. Man these are getting expensive.
> 
> Also got in six hammond/amperex red label tubes.
> 
> Then from my wholesaler, i got 20 high gain sylvania's that look brand new, but they are organ pulls. also, 20 raytheon black plates.
> 
> just trying to stay in the game.



nice!!!!


----------



## solarburn

EL84 power tubes are called V1 and V2 in the Night Train. Your first preamp tube is V3, and it's on the left as you look at the controls. You can see it printed on the PCB through the chassis. V4 is on the right and it's the phase inverter.


----------



## brp

^ Ahh, thanks!
I know this is a PREAMP tube thread, but a toob noob question:
Why does that link you posted say matched PAIR but show FOUR tubes?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> ^ Ahh, thanks!
> I know this is a PREAMP tube thread, but a toob noob question:
> Why does that link you posted say matched PAIR but show FOUR tubes?



If you buy 2 they will match them automatically. No worries. The pic is there for aesthetics. A quad looks cool!


----------



## brp

lol that was confusing. I was like "damn a pair doesn't even mean 2?! I'm so lost!" lol


----------



## solarburn

Well you want to make sure you're buy'n 2 and not 4.LOL

Shit gets xpensive...


----------



## brp

No shit. I was thinking, damn I don't need 4 and certainly don't want to pay for 4 when I only need two, won't you sell me two?!

So Solar, in your experience, it's definitely a well worthwhile upgrade to retube the NT?
Like a must-do upgrade?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> No shit. I was thinking, damn I don't need 4 and certainly don't want to pay for 4 when I only need two, won't you sell me two?!
> 
> So Solar, in your experience, it's definitely a well worthwhile upgrade to retube the NT?
> Like a must-do upgrade?



I feel the tone got much better than the tubes it came with. I've found this to be true with my Marshall and Monza too. Course you have to allow for personal taste. The RFT's do relax the highs though. I play mine all the time. Those damn Sovtec EL84's are stiff as hell. I don't remember now what preamp tubes it came with...What pres came with yours?


----------



## solarburn

Gotta make a store run. Be back in a few...


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What pres came with yours?



I've never opened it. I've only had it 6 months, I wanted to put it through it's paces for a few months and get to know it and am just now getting around to the idea of tinkering with it.

sidenote: I've been on the Vox forum and a guy who's a master Vox modder on there is developing a fx loop mod for it it, that plugs into a tube socket.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-When you get back. What sort of PI tube are you running? High gain? Lopsided? Some amps really open up with a high gain PI. In most of my Tone Packs, I include a high gain, lopsided PI tube and they seem to be the cat's meow.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-When you get back. What sort of PI tube are you running? High gain? Lopsided? Some amps really open up with a high gain PI. In most of my Tone Packs, I include a high gain, lopsided PI tube and they seem to be the cat's meow.



Member that RCA D getter that was micro in the Monza...?

Well it ain't in the NT and I put it in the PI. Since it was so clean sounding or neutral I felt it would let the tone slot come through even more. I think I was right in this. That's why I feel alot of the RFT is coming through. Sounds great!

So do those other tubes I mentioned. The Lorenz sounds good in both EL84 amps in the tone slot. Miniwatt too!

I don't think the RCA is a lopsided one but I do have a Mullard from you that is.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I've never opened it. I've only had it 6 months, I wanted to put it through it's paces for a few months and get to know it and am just now getting around to the idea of tinkering with it.
> 
> sidenote: I've been on the Vox forum and a guy who's a master Vox modder on there is developing a fx loop mod for it it, that plugs into a tube socket.



yeah I just can't remember what mine had in the preamp tube wise. Any amp that comes with Sovtec EL84's gets changed out with me. Hate them sterile sounding tubes. They put them in amps cause you can beat them with a stick and they'll still work. Hence these tubes will make it through shipping to you so the amp fires up...

Good job getting to know the amp. It takes time. I really enjoy how mine sounds now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a comment on lopsided PI tubes. I could give you one that was 31-52. You would say, "Man, that's lopsided!" However, think about the guys that use a 12DW7 (20/100mU)? On a 707 tube tester, I believe you have to test one triode as a 12AX7 and the other as a 12AU7. NOW THAT IS LOPSIDED!

The point I'm trying to make is that a 40-47 PI tube is really not that lopsided. Dig?

I think the tube being high gain has more to do with how the amp plays than anything else. I just think it's stupid to send someone a 38-38 PI tube.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dig?



Not really but I'll humbly take your word for it and defer to your expertise.


(I'm trying to learn and you guys are helping a lot. This thread is great although a bit overhwhelming)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a comment on lopsided PI tubes. I could give you one that was 31-52. You would say, "Man, that's lopsided!" However, think about the guys that use a 12DW7 (20/100mU)? On a 707 tube tester, I believe you have to test one triode as a 12AX7 and the other as a 12AU7. NOW THAT IS LOPSIDED!
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that a 40-47 PI tube is really not that lopsided. Dig?
> 
> I think the tube being high gain has more to do with how the amp plays than anything else. I just think it's stupid to send someone a 38-38 PI tube.



Yeah I don't even think matched tube for the PI. I'll stuff a tube in there and test it out sound wise. Usually I use a tube that is balanced or neutral meaning it has good lows, mids and highs without be'n harsh. I want that V1 or tone slot coming through as much as it can especially on these 2 preamp tube amps I have. Whenever I say balanced it sure as hell has nothing to do with the triodes matching hehe.


----------



## solarburn

Oh and that RCA with the D getter in the tone slot of the NT was beautiful when playing the amp clean. Just gorgeous round clean tone.


----------



## thrawn86

Hi kids.


----------



## solarburn

Wus uuuuuuuuuup!


----------



## thrawn86

Nuthin'. Bout to grab a brew or something. Wasting time.  Tired this week, especially after surgery last week.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Nuthin'. Bout to grab a brew or something. Wasting time.  Tired this week, especially after surgery last week.



Oh man...you too? Hope you're recovering well.

I'd play guitar but i lost track of time and I'd piss my neighbors off now. Have to wait till tomorrow. i ate a huge Hershey bar. I don't feel so good...:eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> Not really but I'll humbly take your word for it and defer to your expertise.
> 
> 
> (I'm trying to learn and you guys are helping a lot. This thread is great although a bit overhwhelming)



This has been discussed at length many times, but I will review it with you.

Some tube companies try to sell you a "balanced" Phase Inverter tube. You pay extra for this. Using my tester's numbers, say you get a 30-30. The problem is, when this tube is put in the amp, the rest of the circuit is unbalanced and this makes a balanced tube unnecessary. 

Generally speaking, either the positive or negative portion of the waveform will be larger than the other. In a Marshall amp, this is a good thing as it promotes more even order hamonics. This helps the guitar sing and sustain. Adding a lopsided tube will make a more (or promote a more) lopsided waveform. Some players use special tubes (12DW7) in the PI to make it have a wicked, lopsided waveform. Believe it or not, a listening test was performed and the majority of the listeners could not tell the difference of an amp running a 12AX7 versus the 12DW7. 

What I believe in? I think a high gain PI tube really opens up a big amp. I don't have a lot of experience with smaller amps, but the 50 and 100 watt amps like a high gain PI tube. As I said, the tests prove that you can go really wacky with a lopsided tube and it really has a limited effect.

Just remember the rule, "You do not need a special balanced tube in the PI."



> I swapped the 12DW7 tube into the phase inverter socket and resumed the test. I sat in exactly the same spot with the same harp and mic, playing the same riffs. The results were not encouraging. The amp started feeding back at exactly the same place on the master volume (as the stock 12AT7 PI). I could hear very little difference in the tone. I tried reversing the polarity of the speaker leads, but could hear no change.



I don't always agree with Myles Rose, but this PI article is pretty good.

http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf


----------



## thrawn86

It was outpatient......but the kind that makes most men cringe..... Doing well now.

When I get to play my amp, the preamp tubes Marty hooked me up with still sing wonderfully. Some of the best $$ I ever spent music wise.


----------



## brp

I was just playing my NT and noted a "fizziness" I hadn't really noticed before. Could be that it wasn't warmed up... although I imagine a tube upgrade would help with this as well?


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> This has been discussed at length many times, but I will review it with you.
> 
> Some tube companies try to sell you a "balanced" Phase Inverter tube. You pay extra for this. Using my tester's numbers, say you get a 30-30. The problem is, when this tube is put in the amp, the rest of the circuit is unbalanced and this makes a balanced tube unnecessary.
> 
> Generally speaking, either the positive or negative portion of the waveform will be larger than the other. In a Marshall amp, this is a good thing as it promotes more even order hamonics. This helps the guitar sing and sustain. Adding a lopsided tube will make a more (or promote a more) lopsided waveform. Some players use special tubes (12DW7) in the PI to make it have a wicked, lopsided waveform. Believe it or not, a listening test was performed and the majority of the listeners could not tell the difference of an amp running a 12AX7 versus the 12DW7.
> 
> What I believe in? I think a high gain PI tube really opens up a big amp. I don't have a lot of experience with smaller amps, but the 50 and 100 watt amps like a high gain PI tube. As I said, the tests prove that you can go really wacky with a lopsided tube and it really has a limited effect.
> 
> Just remember the rule, "You do not need a special balanced tube in the PI."
> 
> 
> 
> I don't always agree with Myles Rose, but this PI article is pretty good.
> 
> http://www.guitaramplifierblueprinting.com/files/Phaseinverter.pdf



Thank you very much for your tutoring! I will check out the article and will (eventually, likely sooner than later) contact you about a tone pack for the NT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Nuthin'. Bout to grab a brew or something. Wasting time.  Tired this week, especially after surgery last week.



Good to see you over here in our unobtrusive thread. No religion or politics over here. Just us good ole boys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Is tonight your day off?


----------



## solarburn

Myles know his shit man but I disagree with him about using a matched tube in the PI in a guitar amp. So what if both triodes are hitting the power tubes equally...


----------



## thrawn86

This is the good ol' thread. Lovely to see you Marty.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I was just playing my NT and noted a "fizziness" I hadn't really noticed before. Could be that it wasn't warmed up... although I imagine a tube upgrade would help with this as well?



Yes.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-Is tonight your day off?



Hellz yez!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hellz yez!



Well then I will stay up a little longer. Getting near 2 AM here.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thank you very much for your tutoring! I will check out the article and will (eventually, likely sooner than later) contact you about a tone pack for the NT.



Marty's got some good tone packs. Used them in all three of my toobers. Make your own versions once you know your amp and tubes real well. Get them soon cause them damn prices are going up...as we speak.LOL


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well then I will stay up a little longer. Getting near 2 AM here.



I always forget its much later over there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Myles know his shit man but I disagree with him about using a matched tube in the PI in a guitar amp. So what if both triodes are hitting the power tubes equally...



Well considering the power tube circuits to not be "perfect," neither is the OPT.
A balanced tube is just a joke.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I was just playing my NT and noted a "fizziness" I hadn't really noticed before. Could be that it wasn't warmed up... although I imagine a tube upgrade would help with this as well?



I remember talking about this with other NT owners. Mine isn't fizzy anymore. Tube change did it.


----------



## brp

So, the NT uses 2 12AX7's for the pres, but you guys are saying it would be best to have 2 different brands of 12AX7 for the pre's v3 and the PI v4?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well considering the power tube circuits to not be "perfect," neither is the OPT.
> A balanced tube is just a joke.



And we's laugh'n cause we don't waste no money on that myth.

Busted!


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> So, the NT uses 2 12AX7's for the pres, but you guys are saying it would be best to have 2 different brands of 12AX7 for the pre's v3 and the PI v4?



Well once you know 12AX7's have different sonic flavors you can take certain ones and try to utilize their tonal characteristics to get what you want...within reason.

Plus the slots you put them in make a difference too. You can shape tone and hopefully improve on dynamics.

Circuit mods will have more of an impact though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty's got some good tone packs. Used them in all three of my toobers. Make your own versions once you know your amp and tubes real well. Get them soon cause them damn prices are going up...as we speak.LOL



I know that money for tubes can be pressing, but those who make the move are very happy. The main thing about new or used vintage tubes is that they last much longer than a CP. If you buy a used NOS tube that tests at or better than new, the tube could last over three years with excessive use. Telefunkens are good for up to 10,000 hours.

All of us here "enjoy" rolling and owning a wide variety of tubes. I know that Joe has a good stash now (including a few of my Christmas gifts). When you have a nice selection, you can actually "dial in" amps. One amp may not like an RFT in V1 while another amp loves an RFT. NOS tubes give you more flexibility in tone. There is a good range from dark to bright. 

If you get into this, you will want to build your stash up. The main reason for this is it ensures that you will have NOS tubes five years from now.


----------



## brp

Yes, obviously NOS will eventually be impossible to find.
To get me started, I'm definitely going to PM you this weekend for a suggested NOS preamp pair combo, sounds like the RFT you mentioned from Russia that Joe recommended would be the right choice for me (and an extra AX7 for the single tubed Blackheart) and a price if that's ok.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I don't regret at all spending what I have on my stash. I have some real good flavors and I know how strong they are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well just so you know, the RFT is an East German made tube. I just happened to buy some NOS one's from a Russian dealer.

Sounds like you are looking for three 12AX7's.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Yes, obviously NOS will eventually be impossible to find.
> To get me started, I'm definitely going to PM you this weekend for a suggested NOS preamp pair combo, sounds like the RFT you mentioned from Russia that Joe recommended would be the right choice for me (and an extra AX7 for the single tubed Blackheart) and a price if that's ok.



The big change will come with those power tubes. Too bad Vox didn't sell these amps with the RFT 84's in them. Bet we'd here alot more about the NT if they did...IMO...IME hehe.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well just so you know, the RFT is an East German made tube. I just happened to buy some NOS one's from a Russian dealer.
> 
> Sounds like you are looking for three 12AX7's.



Yes I did know they were German made and assumed "from Russia" meant the dealer was there but thanks.

Yes 3 12AX7's.
Is it a good idea to change the EL84's at the same time or would separately be better (on a tone/tube evaluating level I mean)?


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The big change will come with those power tubes. Too bad Vox didn't sell these amps with the RFT 84's in them. Bet we'd here alot more about the NT if they did...IMO...IME hehe.



Hmm, I thought I had read that the power tubes is the more minimal tone affecting part of the setup... no?


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is a huge inventory of Russian made tubes from the 60's and early 70's that are extremely good tubes. What I see is that when the NOS market dries up, these will be the new darlings and command higher prices. A 6NP2 is just a lower heater 12AX7. People will start using them. The only drawback will be that you will have to live with whatever tone the tube has.

Also. our military still has a huge stockpile of tubes. I wonder how they plan on getting rid of them. Some luck basturd with $40,000 will get $200,000 worth of tubes and hit EBAY. 

Do you guys remember the fellow that lucked out and won an auction bid at the now defunct GM testing plant in Arizona? He ended up with an ungodly amount of brand new, triple tested RCA 12AX7's. He sold each one for $40 and then he bought himself a Ferrari or some other exotic Italian sports car off of the profits.

Lucky Bastid!


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Yes I did know they were German made and assumed "from Russia" meant the dealer was there but thanks.
> 
> Yes 3 12AX7's.
> Is it a good idea to change the EL84's at the same time or would separately be better (on a tone/tube evaluating level I mean)?



Well normally I'd say do the preamp tubes first but having put the RFT EL84's against other offerings in the NT and my Monza getting them is a win win. Do what you can afford to though. You won't get advised to use shit tubes here. We all know well enough no one needs to be throwing money away here.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is a huge inventory of Russian made tubes from the 60's and early 70's that are extremely good tubes. What I see is that when the NOS market dries up, these will be the new darlings and command higher prices. A 6NP2 is just a lower heater 12AX7. People will start using them. The only drawback will be that you will have to live with whatever tone the tube has.
> 
> Also. our military still has a huge stockpile of tubes. I wonder how they plan on getting rid of them. Some luck basturd with $40,000 will get $200,000 worth of tubes and hit EBAY.
> 
> Do you guys remember the fellow that lucked out and won an auction bid at the now defunct GM testing plant in Arizona? He ended up with an ungodly amount of brand new, triple tested RCA 12AX7's. He sold each one for $40 and then he bought himself a Ferrari or some other exotic Italian sports car off of the profits.
> 
> Lucky Bastid!



That would be the shit!


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> Hmm, I thought I had read that the power tubes is the more minimal tone affecting part of the setup... no?



Those smaller amps will overdrive the power tubes much easier than a 100 watt amp. It's all about headroom. Little amps tend to have just a little clean and a whole lot of overdrive.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Hmm, I thought I had read that the power tubes is the more minimal tone affecting part of the setup... no?



In some amp circuits as well as bigger wattage amps I guess...?. I find in the NT the tone can go from stiff to warm and have better dynamics just from changing power tubes. The RFT84's are just a warmer tube so its noticeable.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those smaller amps will overdrive the power tubes much easier than a 100 watt amp. It's all about headroom. Little amps tend to have just a little clean and a whole lot of overdrive.




Well it certainly breaks up quickly especially on "thick" and in triode mode.

I've no idea if RFT is also the right choice for the Blackheart killer ant but I'd like a bit more breakup out of it than the stock ones provide.

Also a correction: The BH1h has TWO 12AX7's, one for pre and one for power so it would be 4 TOTAL 12AX7's I'd need, with ones selected that would be best for
1. Vox NT preamp
2. " " PI slot
3. Blackheart BH1h preamp
4. " " power tube.


----------



## brp

double post glitch.


----------



## solarburn

Marty will hook you up. I've added all I can with the NT tube wise. Look forward to hearing what you get and how they sound to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On that note, it's time for me to excuse myself. It's 2:33 AM.


----------



## solarburn

Night guyz! I'm with ya man. Tired...


----------



## brp

I'm out too. Thanks a million guys! I feel a little less clueless already.
I'll shoot you a PM Marty in the next couple days....


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> What are you looking for? NOS or new?



Either for my class 5 amp. It sounds pretty good right now, but I may want to experiment with it later.


----------



## sccloser

Was at a high school football game last night. My niece is in the marching band I we went to see her perform. I missed about 2 pages last night I see....


----------



## sccloser

Been experimenting to day with the mkiii. What I had:
v1: cp tung sol
v2: sovtek
v3: NOS JAN Sylvania (p.i.)

I tried the tele smooth plate in v1, then the tele ribbed plate, then the cp tung sol with the same v2 and v3 as above. Other than the tung sol having more gain, no real huge difference. I actually was preferring the cp tung sol.

THEN, I put a NOS JAN Raytheon 1962 into v2. This made a big difference with all the tubes tried in v1. I was switching v1 between the tele smooth plate, teh cp tung sol and a RCA labeled mullard. 

With the tele in v1, I get less gain, but it is smoother and generally sounds good tough it is a bit brighter sounding than the other tubes.
With the cp tung sol in v1, I get more gain and less brightness than the tele and it sounds good.
With the mullard in v1, I get more edge and crunch, and the gain is kind of in between...more than the tele, less than the cp tung sol. It sounds good as well, just more edgy. 

So, for the tests so far it appears that the most significant effect on the tone came from putting a NOS JAN Raytheon in v2. That made all the other tubes sound better, and seemed to me at least to have more overall effect no matter what I had in v1.

Going to test some more.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Most of the German I know either came from Hogan's Heroes or beer packages. That and my grandad and other WWII guys who were around when I grew up. I learned what flederscheisse was at a fairly young age. One of the nastier weapons employed by allied airmen.



I learned my german from 4 years of taking it in school 

And hogan's Heroes is an awesome show


----------



## sccloser

Ok,now I have put a Tungsgram (Hungarian) in with the Raytheon v2 and the sylvainia pi. it sounded pretty good...kind of like the mullard. Next I put an Amparex in and is soounding pretty good. Full range of tone, good crunch yet smooth. Very dynamic so far. 
So, currently running:
v1: Amparex NOS
v2: Raytheon NOS JAN
v3: Sylvania NOS JAN p.i.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is your JAN Raytheon a black plate?

I like a good Amperex in V1.

Sounds like you are rolling like a mad hound. This is what we used to do and the only reason we don't do it as much is because we did all that we could do. One thing you will gain is experience in how certain tubes sound. You will also get an idea as to how stout a tube is by comparing others in V1. When you don't have a tester, all you can do is use your ears. 

Keep a rolling and let us hear what your comments are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lost two pages? Yeah, we had a late night chat going.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Lost two pages? Yeah, we had a late night chat going.



Yup, I thought I was up late. Can't hang with you tube junkies!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, 2:30 AM was putting me to the test.


----------



## sccloser

Marty, you will not believe this. I took the raytheon our to see if it was a black plate and it looks like a chinese tube. I had it in the Raytheon JAN box. I have a Raytheon blackplate in my 800, had it in v1, but I did have two so now I do not know what happened to my other raytheon.

But that little chinese tube sounds so much better than the sovtek in v2!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A mop handle sounds better than a Sovtek.

Don't know how you got the two tubes mixed up, but there's a lot of difference between them that's for sure.


----------



## sccloser

Still looking for that other Raytheon. It may be in another amp.

I'll stick the real raytheon in after the game.


----------



## sccloser

I think that other Raytheon must have been the tube that went out on me in my 800 last year. That really sucks. 

I need another Raytheon black plate...

Marty, do the teles make better v1 or v2 tubes? Which is supposed to be better tone wise, smooth or ribbed? Smooth sounded a touch better to me, but not much difference really that I could tell.

I'm gonna get some more chinese tubes...haha!

What is a Mesa str SPAX7-A?


----------



## MartyStrat54

In a HIFI amp, most snobs prefer the smooth plate. In a guitar amp, my Metal customers like the smooth plate. The ribbed is a little more thicker midband. They are actually pretty close side by side. I would use the Tele in V1 if it is a strong tube. Some people also like to run a lopsided Tele in the PI slot. 

The Mesa is a relabeled special request Shuguang.


----------



## MM54

I like the smoothplate Tele I got from Marty many moons ago. Never had a ribbed plate to compare though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> I like the smoothplate Tele I got from Marty many moons ago. Never had a ribbed plate to compare though.



You still running it as your number one?


----------



## MM54

It's still in V1 of the ML100, yeah. Being at college I don't have access to my amps, but last time I played it was still in V1 and still kicking ass 

(And a Raytheon Blackplate in V2)


----------



## sccloser

Hey Marty,

What are your recommendations for tubes in a 2205...5 12ax7's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can't beat that combo.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> A mop handle sounds better than a Sovtek.
> 
> Don't know how you got the two tubes mixed up, but there's a lot of difference between them that's for sure.



Where can I get me some of those mop handles....haha!

yeah, these little chinese tubes are blowing the sovteks away.

I have a Premium sovtek new in the box, one of those 12ax7wa's or something like that. I am told they are decent, but never tried it yet.

I was going to put some chinese tubes in that little preamp I got the tele's out of before I sell it, but I think sovteks are going into it now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man! Here are some mint Dario MiniWatts that test excellent.

MINIWATT DARIO ECC83 12AX7 TUBES QUAD STRONG | eBay


----------



## sccloser

AWESOME!!!!!!
Earlier, I thought I had the mkiii sounding pretty good. But when I found out I had a chinese tube in instead of may raytheon black plate, I decided to get teh raytheon out of my 800 and put it in v2.
v1: Amperex NOS
v2: Raytheon NOS JAN 1962 (yes, this one is real, long black plate)
v3: sylvania NOS JAN

HUGE difference. I mean, that chinese tube was a lot better than the sovtek, but the raytheon just took it that much further. Smooth and articulate, sweet wounding sustain, lots of gain, but not harsh. Extremely balanced tone...not mid heavy, bass heavy, treb heavy, just awesome. Not quite as edgy as it was with the chinese in v2, but it is really, really awesome right now. This is the kind of change I was expecting.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Where can I get me some of those mop handles....haha!
> 
> yeah, these little chinese tubes are blowing the sovteks away.
> 
> I have a Premium sovtek new in the box, one of those 12ax7wa's or something like that. I am told they are decent, but never tried it yet.
> 
> I was going to put some chinese tubes in that little preamp I got the tele's out of before I sell it, but I think sovteks are going into it now.


I've got 5 Chinese 12ax7s I pulled out of my 2210....I think you told me they were chinese....red 12ax7 printed vertical on them....anyway, they don't sound too bad....good gain, but they all test out at 80/80, a little weaker than my other ones....no brand on them...I think they came stock with the amp.....I was rolling CP and some vintage tonite in my 1959....I have 2 EHs, one sounded not bad the other sucked....JnJ sounded decent, had 2...one blew last week...brand new too....and a Groove Tube gold I've had awhile, kind of dark...not too bad....but the vintage one blew them all away hands down....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know that I'm repeating myself, but for you new guys I always say that if you have any type of NOS tube, that is what you run in V1. You can get by with the Chinese and Russian tubes in the other slots. It won't be the best it can be, but it will sound the best for what you have.

I will always run a regular Sylvania Gray Plate in V1 if that's all I have and be happy with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the Chinese 12AX7's way better than any of the Russian or JJ stuff. They are a little edgy but still way better than the wet cardboard Sovtek tone. 

I'm still holding out for an Ei re-release. They still have that Svetlana page up when you visit their website. That would be absolutely awesome if they went back to the old production instead of coming up with re-labeled Russian tubes that are all the same except for the label.


----------



## sccloser

What I learned today...
1. v2 is very important to your tone in a mkiii
2. Chinese no names sound better than sovteks
3. Raytheon black plates are versatile little buggers
4. I like Amperex ecc83's better than telefunken
5. Telefunken smooth or ribbed really have nothing on an rca labeled mullard
6. CP Tung Sols sound good in v1

So, the only cp tubes I have found that are handy to have around are the tung sols, chinese no names and jj's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't get a chance to play this evening. Too much good football on TV. I picked up an Electro-Harmonix Micro Synth on Friday and I've been giving it a workout. That is the coolest, most useless pedal I've ever owned. I can set it to do the opening chord to Tom Sawyer. I guess it's worth it just for that.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> What I learned today...
> 1. v2 is very important to your tone in a mkiii
> 2. Chinese no names sound better than sovteks
> 3. Raytheon black plates are versatile little buggers
> 4. I like Amperex ecc83's better than telefunken
> 5. Telefunken smooth or ribbed really have nothing on an rca labeled mullard
> 6. CP Tung Sols sound good in v1
> 
> So, the only cp tubes I have found that are handy to have around are the tung sols, chinese no names and jj's.



Get your hands on a 1950's long-plate Mullard. They are that much better. The one I have is THE tube for my VM 2266.


----------



## sccloser

My amperex has the orange writing on it and is made in Germany. What do you guys know about them?


----------



## RiverRatt

I can tell you it wasn't made by Amperex.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I know that I'm repeating myself, but for you new guys I always say that if you have any type of NOS tube, that is what you run in V1. You can get by with the Chinese and Russian tubes in the other slots. It won't be the best it can be, but it will sound the best for what you have.
> 
> I will always run a regular Sylvania Gray Plate in V1 if that's all I have and be happy with it.


 All of my CP 12ax7s are strickly backups.....and for sale on CL here in Memphis......but hey, I have to plug em in once in a while.....got 3 sylvanias coming with the RFTs I won for $69....if they test out, they gotta be worth at least that....


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> My amperex has the orange writing on it and is made in Germany. What do you guys know about them?





RiverRatt said:


> I can tell you it wasn't made by Amperex.



It's a VALVO. Amperex were also made by Mullard. Just because it says a certain brand, the truth is, Philips made tubes were made all over hell. The codes are the trick and key to understanding where the tube was actually made.

This occurred more often in the later days of tube production. Say Amperex (Holland) got an order for 25,000 12AX7's. They had 16,000 on hand and got the other 9,000 from Mullard who would send Amperex the blank tubes, except for the etched codes. The tubes were labeled Amperex, but they were actually Mullard's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, Mullard made the most EL34's. A lot of the older Amperex EL34's are actually Mullard's.
I really do not know if Amperex (Holland) was actually set up to make EL34's. Most Amperex EL34's I have dealt with has the Mullard Blackburn codes.


----------



## sccloser

Valvo...OK...well that is the tube I am running in v1 of the mkiii after today's test. It seems to sound the best out of those I tested. I bought it a couple of months ago sitting in a music shop NOS. $16.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a good price. The slant getter Valvo's are the most expensive. I really like them and if they were more affordable, I would have some. I think I have a few, but not many. I have a silver plate Mazda that I seem to have misplaced. I can't find it.


----------



## sccloser

I need to win the lottery so I can buy more tubes. 

My wife is developing a dislike for tubes.


----------



## sccloser

Looks like I outlasted everyone tonight.

G'night all!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

He shoots he scores! Just looked on ebay fro the first time in ages for valves (i have plenty so dont actually need any, but was curious as to what was out there at the moment).

Came across some National branded, Ei smoothplates, NOS in a a very mint looking sleeve of 5, thats 5 count em! and payed the totally rock bottom price of £5.50 for the lot!!!!!!1Mwhahahahahahhaaha!!1111!!! 

Seller hadnt made it clear it was for 5 valves, so i asked he confirmed that it was for the 5 so placed my bid and the rest is history.

I actually like the Ei smoothplates, I have some pre and post war (no idea what these ones are) and like em all, and at this price whats not to like.

Will post some minty NOS pics when these lovelys arrive.

Sorry had to share, carry on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like Ei's and the best one's I had were a 20 lot I bought that the seller thought were Mullards. The tubes had, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them, but they were actually Ei's. Like I said, it pays to know what the guts look like. I told him they were Ei's and got them for a better price. I sold most of them as V1's and my customers were very happy. I had some that were only good for PI's, but hey that's okay. 

Some people complain that Ei's can be microphonic. I have yet to run into that problem.


----------



## MM54

I got a smoothplate Ei for $7 a while ago, it works, sounds alright, but I haven't really extensively rolled it to find out much other than 'it works' so I could leave feedback on ebay.


----------



## sccloser

Messed with the 2205 today (since I robbed it of the Raytheon bp yesterday). Right now this is what I am running, but still tweaking...
v1: NOS RCA label Mullard
v2: Telefunken ribbed
v3: Airline label made in GB
v4: NOS JAN Sylvania
v5: NOS JAN Tung Sol

I had the Tele ribbed in v1 and the tele smooth in v2 earlier, but swapped them. May go back, not sure.

Sounds pretty good, but not satisfied yet. Need a little more articulation on the boost channel...it is too smooth. 

One note. I know a many forum members do not care for the G12-75s, but my 2205 sounds better through them. The 1960ax with greenbacks just breaks up too much with the 2205 on the boost channel for me taste. Ever since I had the greenback cab, I always thought that the mkiii sounded better through the gb's and the 2205 through the 75's.


----------



## RiverRatt

T75's are not bad speakers, especially after they are well broken in. Everybody says they suck with the Vintage Modern, but I didn't find that to be the case at all. I've got a 425A cab now with greenbacks but I'd love to put a 1960B with G12T-75's under it.


----------



## sccloser

Slow around here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it is. This used to be the liveliest thread on the forum. We had a lot of fun several years ago when Josh, Alan, Joe and I were rolling all sorts of tubes. I wish back then I had my JMP 2203 and JCM 2204. I would have loved to roll tubes in them. I pretty much knew what I was going to put in them when I got them and it wasn't disappointing hearing my selections. The JMP is really sensitive to the tube in V1. I've rolled a few in it, but I am more than happy with the stout Dario MiniWatt I have in it.

Yeah, we used to roll a lot of tubes. The dust has settled. Now we are just a bunch of knowledgeable guys who "know" what we like and what tubes will work.

I just wish more people would post their tube questions here or on the Power Tube thread, instead of starting a new thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Slow around here.



Joe or Alan-Could you give a brief, "Why I like D getter/Slant getter Matsushitas? Vic was asking me and I know you guys really like them.


----------



## solarburn

I was actually play'n my NT without my boost pedal!!!!!!

The RFT 12AX7 in the tone slot plus the RFT EL84's definitely darken the bright voicing. Worked out good. My boost pedal makes the amp more up front and punchy so its not as dark with it.

I still think that RCA D getter you sold me Marty is the prettiest sounding V1 for clean tones. Monza was hard on it but the NT loves it.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hey Alan, got the BZ7 & the 'Shita D-Getter. Thanks so much bro! I'm gonna be outta town for a couple weeks here, but as soon as I get back I fully intend to put them through their paces. Thanks man!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe or Alan-Could you give a brief, "Why I like D getter/Slant getter Matsushitas? Vic was asking me and I know you guys really like them.



I find them "Mullard" like which of course is a good thing but there was also a bit more to the texture of the OD from it that made me prefer it over the Mullards I have. In V1 of the DSL it had this pissed off sound to it without being fizzy. I'd call it hair.

Its a pissed off long haired Mullard...


----------



## 61rocker

Ok Marty...what can I expect from grey plate Sylvanias (look to be from the 80s) I have on the way...in my 2210 or my 1959....where do think they will work the best with what I have.....

short grey plate Mazda with gold pins
black plate RCA
grey plate Phillips/Mullard
I'll leave out the mystery tube we talked about last nite...
using a GT 12ax7r in my reverb on the 2210....and
I have what looks to be a 14mm grey plate Mazda UK made 12ax7 on the way too


----------



## solarburn

I'll add my Matsushitas tend to be too biting and bright in both my EL84 amps in V1 but man I had to have a stash of them for any Marshall I'll own. They's good V1 Marshall toobs!

Work nicely with the NT when it is in thick mode though.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe or Alan-Could you give a brief, "Why I like D getter/Slant getter Matsushitas? Vic was asking me and I know you guys really like them.



I've got some sound samples (excuse the poor playing) of d-getter matsushitas compared to slant getter matsushitas and other tubes as well... 

... IMHO they are just great all around rock tubes for the V1 slot in a Marshall. Very versatile and full of rich fullbodied character.



joshuaaewallen said:


> FYI: A bunch of these links no longer work. Here's the direct link to the whole collection...
> 
> joshuaaewallen on Kiwi6 - Kiwi6.com Mp3 Upload


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tubes Asylum: REVIEW: CBS 12AX7 Tubes by el34eh@yahoo.com

Here's a HIFI geek that is rolling tubes. He talks about the early Amperex, Mullard and Tele, but the main point is the best USA tube. The winner is the CBS. See, I told you it was a sweet one. Damn, I forgot to jump on them when I had the chance. Remember, there is even a "red-tipped" version that is like a medical grade tube. If anybody gets one, post a review.


----------



## sccloser

Marty,

What do you think about my tubes in the 2205 right now? I am thinking that I need a bit more articulation. It is real smooth and the notes of a chord blend too much for me. maybe I need to start using my presence control. I turned it off a year or so ago and left it off.


----------



## sccloser

joshuaaewallen said:


> I've got some sound samples (excuse the poor playing) of d-getter matsushitas compared to slant getter matsushitas and other tubes as well...
> 
> ... IMHO they are just great all around rock tubes for the V1 slot in a Marshall. Very versatile and full of rich fullbodied character.



Cool. Great samples and I love the Thin Lizzy!


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> Ok Marty...what can I expect from grey plate Sylvanias (look to be from the 80s) I have on the way...in my 2210 or my 1959....where do think they will work the best with what I have.....



If they were made in the 80's, Sylvania sold out to Philips and the tubes had ECG printed on them. Here's the deal. All of the tube companies were in full production by 1935. Thirty years later, the end of the tube was in the future. The machinery used was for the most part, worn out. No one upgraded their tube equipment, because the transistor was coming into play. The companies used this worn out equipment until they stopped production. What does this mean? Well, the really finely detailed parts of the tube weren't so finely detailed. Also, a lot of the tubes being made were sold to the military and these tubes were "ruggedized" tubes. These tubes are a lot stiffer sounding than a 1959 military tube. In 1959, a tube was heavily tested to be branded a military tube, but they are still the same tube as what you would put in your amp.

Older Sylvania's are a very nice tube. Those made in the early 50's were as good or better than an RCA. I know you are new to a lot of this, but I am always looking for tubes made before 1965-67. The best tubes RCA made were in the early 50's. These are D getters and go for $130 for a matched pair on Brent Jesse's tube store. By the time 1967 rolled around, RCA's were just okay tubes. Nothing special. RCA was the first to stop making tubes in 1977. Think about that. They were done in 1977. Did they still sell tubes? Yes they did and they got them from all over the world.

The Raytheon Black Plates were done by 1965 I believe. The heaviest production runs were 1959, 1962 and 1964. If you find a Raytheon with yellow print on it with "Certified" or "Select" on it, it is actually a Matsushita slant getter. There were some Raytheons that were made in Taiwan as well. I bought a couple just to have them. They have yellow print as well.

I recently bought a five pack sleeve of NOS Sylvania JAN 12AX7's. I haven't rolled them in anything yet, but the price was good and I had to buy them. All of them were made in November 1980.

All you can do is try the Sylvania. That's what we do here. Roll that puppy and see if she works for you. I consider Sylvania's to be solid utility tubes. For the most part, Sylvania's that are organ pulls tend to be very high gain and lopsided. These make one of the finest PI tubes around. Most of my tone packs include a high gain, lopsided Sylvania.

For those out there who can't spend a bunch of money, everyone of us here on the Preamp Tube thread knows for a fact that you can get almost any USA brand tube on EBAY for about $20 or less. This is right at what a CP Tung-Sol costs. Why run CP in V1 especially, when you can get a GE, RCA, Raytheon or Sylvania? The trick is to find older one's. They are just better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Marty,
> 
> What do you think about my tubes in the 2205 right now? I am thinking that I need a bit more articulation. It is real smooth and the notes of a chord blend too much for me. maybe I need to start using my presence control. I turned it off a year or so ago and left it off.



Looking ^^^ at what you posted. The problem is running the Mullard and the Tele together. You really need a high gain Raytheon Black Plate. I'm sorry, but you do. We all have them and there is a reason for that. They are simply the best V2 tube out there. With the BP, you can stick the Mullard or the ribbed Tele in V1 and see what that does in both channels. 

Now I am a little confused about your description. You say it is, "real smooth." To me, that combo of a Mullard and a ribbed Tele would seem to be a little bright. A BP is a smoothing tube, but it isn't muddy. It works very well with European made tubes. I strongly urge that you get a BP.


----------



## sccloser

I did have to bump the bass up just a tad as it was slightly brighter than before the swap. I actually had the Raytheon bp in v1 before.

I just like a tad more edge so that the boost channel is more articulate.


----------



## 61rocker

Nice post Marty....thx....the Sylvanias I have coming have Sylvania on them printed in either orange or green....can't tell by the pic....will roll at will....


----------



## sccloser

I have been using a boss ge7 eq in the fx loop of my mkiii for boost, and I also boost the mids with it and that gives me nice articulation and that may be why the 2205 is seemingly smoother and the notes are blending so much. Kinda has a softer edge. 
To be honest, I had a 2205 back around 1990 and loved it, and got another when I started playing in bands again. But since I got that mkiii, I tend to be gravitating towards it more and more.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I figured since Monday is a holiday the forum would be jumping. I guess not.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Uuummmmh! I agree with some of his picks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm#ecc83val

4 Low Noise Pairs $100/pair) 12AX7WA Sylvania JAN NOS original boxes 1972-1978, most are 1974 (recommended, open-clean-crisp, high gain)
single tubes $50

1 tube $60) JHS-12AX7WA Sylvania JAN NOS 1966 (recommended)

10 Low Noise Pairs $90/pair) 12AX7WA=7025 Philips JAN USA NOS 1986-1987 blue printing (best value)
single tubes $45
(special 10 for $425 unmatched)

Yes fellows, even Sylvania's are getting high. Even for Philips JAN. 1950's are higher.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Uuummmmh! I agree with some of his picks.



Not sure if this helps. Kind of have to try them I guess. Then v2 seems to affect v1 so much.

I guess I would describe my 2205 to currently sound somewhat creamy. That is good for blues, but I could use a tad more edge for rock. Though it is usable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Actually, in regard to tube rolling, V1 sets the table. The tone and flavor of the preamp will be based on V1. V2 will make a difference, but it is more subtle. This is why a V2 tube can be a little microphonic or noisy. If it was in V1, you would really hear the defects.

The other thing is there was a guy that used to be a regular here. He had a 2210. He wanted some tube advice and I looked at a schematic and then got a hold of one of the forum tech's and I believe that a 2205/2210 has an odd ball arrangement of preamp tubes. If I recall this correctly, your amp isn't a straight V1/V2 gain stage setup.


----------



## sccloser

I think part of v3 may also be used for gain on the boost channel. I think, however, that there is a difference in the 2205/2210's made before and after 1986.


----------



## sccloser

I'm thinking about those Matsushitas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You owe me. I'm really good at finding stuff in the back pages of this thread. Alan, Joe, remember this about the 2205/2210?



> There you go. That signal path is like going in circles. Let's break it down.
> 
> Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B
> 
> Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A
> 
> Reverb: V3B and V4B
> 
> Effects Return: V4A
> 
> Phase Inverter: V5
> 
> To be honest, it would take some very serious tube rolling to set this amp up. In reality, you would want V1 to be say a 24-27 tube. Then V2 would be a 26-26 as this is your normal channel. Then you would have to get a tube for V3 that would be like 29-25. Not that difficult when you have 400 tubes.
> 
> So V1 is important, but what makes it tough is that it is double duty. Instead of a 27-27, you would want a 24-27. V2 is the easiest tube there is. It is dedicated to the Clean Channel. Your Boost Channel is like connect the dots.
> 
> However, it can be done. I just needed to see how it worked.
> 
> And yes, you are going to have to get your tubes tested so you can rethink your approach on this monster.


----------



## sccloser

I actually ran across where you had posted that in a search the other day.  But thanks for re-posting it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I finally got Wegman situated, but it was a tough assignment. I think we put a Black Plate in V2 and V3 and that worked out good. That way the clean channel had a BP and the boost channel had a BP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


>



I think this is my favorite photo that I posted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think I still have the 59 GE and the Amperex.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Signing off. 2 AM again.


----------



## sccloser

Wimp...it is 3 am here...

I'm gonna call it a night soon myself. Off tomorrow anyway.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry. We went to a barbecue yesterday and sat out in the rain under a deck umbrella and drank massive amounts of beer and had some great ribs and shoulder. I think I turned in at around 10 p.m. 

RE the Matsushita d-getters - I've learned a lot since I picked up that Mullard long plate from the 1950's. I think that's where the magic is. I just like long-plate tubes better, period. The 'Shita D's are easily on-par with the old 1950's long-plate Mullards. They have more clarity, more punch, and are more aggressive than either the 1960's Matsushita 45° getter tubes or the Mullard I63 types.


----------



## 61rocker

I've been rolling like Thunder in my 2210....I still like the Mazda into the RCA BP......Responsive that meets smoothed creamy liquid.....I put the Phiilips/Mullard in the PI.....nice.....V3 I've been changing in and out....actully had a JnJ in it with these tubes....maybe it's a rare good one....trying more....


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry. We went to a barbecue yesterday and sat out in the rain under a deck umbrella and drank massive amounts of beer and had some great ribs and shoulder. I think I turned in at around 10 p.m.
> 
> RE the Matsushita d-getters - I've learned a lot since I picked up that Mullard long plate from the 1950's. I think that's where the magic is. I just like long-plate tubes better, period. The 'Shita D's are easily on-par with the old 1950's long-plate Mullards. They have more clarity, more punch, and are more aggressive than either the 1960's Matsushita 45° getter tubes or the Mullard I63 types.



So are the D getters much better than the slants? Marty has some slants for sale and I am thinking of getting them.


----------



## RiverRatt

The slant-getters aren't bad at all but yeah, there is a difference in tone. Like I said before, I think it's the long plates that make the difference. The long plates are more punchy and a little darker than the short plate tubes. Matsushita are excellent quality tubes - very rugged and they sound good. The only ones to stay away from are the late 1960's to early 1970's halo getters. I don't care for them at all.


----------



## sccloser

OK...today I rolled a few tubes in the 2205 again. This is what I did.
v1: tele ribbed
v2: tele smooth
v3: RCA NOS gray plate 
v4: NOS JAN Sylvania
v5: NOS JAN Tung Sol

I'm getting a little more definition with the tele ribbed in v1 than with the tele smooth in v1. I didn't roll them anymore b/c I got caught up in playing some blues licks. With my 85 LP with Shaws it just sings on the boost channel with the neck pup. And on the normal channel, with the SG it gets a good, strong ac/dc tone and has a good punch. I like it now. Sounding good. Even the reverb, which I seldom use, sounds a little better.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> The slant-getters aren't bad at all but yeah, there is a difference in tone. Like I said before, I think it's the long plates that make the difference. The long plates are more punchy and a little darker than the short plate tubes. Matsushita are excellent quality tubes - very rugged and they sound good. The only ones to stay away from are the late 1960's to early 1970's halo getters. I don't care for them at all.



Marty has slants pretty reasonable and I think I may get a couple.


----------



## Over Drive

Can anyone help identify these preamp tubes? I apologize for my poor photography.

"Red Label" Chinese No-Name 12AX7s?







These are interesting. They were pulled from an old Traynor YVM-1 and I believe they were original. Three of the tubes have only "G 3" on top with "ECC83" below. The third has numerous markings including "PHILLIPS" with "GT-BRITAIN" along with "BIE" and "7025A/12AX7A" all in various places. Are these Phillips branded Mullards?












The last three are a "ECC83" and "E83CC" respectively with an interesting tube marked "Japan" with illegible blue markings in between those two.

I think the ECC83 and the E83CC might have come out of a used Orange OR50H or a used Vox Night Train I purchased but I could be mistaken - not that it matters. Is the E83CC simply a higher grade or MIL spec version of the ECC83? Are these simply No-Name Chinese tubes or something different? 

I have no clue what the "Japan" tube is. I have read something about seams in the top but it seems to me that there is a seam in the glass running from the top to bottom of the tube. I pulled this out of V2 from an old '83 JCM800 I recently purchased. Please tell me this is a Matsushita production.  At any rate, that 800 sounds amazing even with Sovtex 12AX7WAs in V1 and V2. That said, I will definitely be experimenting with a few tubes.








Oh, and any suggestions for that JCM800 2203? I have been thinking a matched quad of Tungsol EL34s to replace the current green label EHX EL34 quartet. I was also thinking of ordering a Tungsol 12AX7. Keep in mind I have the above 'mystery' tubes available. I also have a Sovtek 12AX7EH and Sovtek 12AX7LP (phase inverter maybe?) available. Lots to try out! Any suggestions?

Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

Over Drive said:


> These are interesting. They were pulled from an old Traynor YVM-1 and I believe they were original. Three of the tubes have only "G 3" on top with "ECC83" below. The third has numerous markings including "PHILLIPS" with "GT-BRITAIN" along with "BIE" and "7025A/12AX7A" all in various places. Are these Phillips branded Mullards?



From left to right, you have an RFT, Philips (if this is the one with Gt. Britain and B1E on it, It's a 1961 Blackburn Mullard), RFT and RFT.



Over Drive said:


> The last three are a "ECC83" and "E83CC" respectively with an interesting tube marked "Japan" with illegible blue markings in between those two.



The E83CC and ECC83 look like Chinese Shugang tubes as do the red print ones in the first photo. Sorry, but the MIJ tube is a Hitachi, probably from a 1970's Curtis Mathes TV. The seam all the way around gives it away.

If the Mullard and the RFT's test good, that's a decent bunch of tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Chinese red labels look like 7th Generation Shuguangs. Do you have any idea how old they are, or what they were pulled from?

As Alan stated, you have three RFT's. They have very short plates and are a darker sounding tube in V1. RFT's were made in East Germany and there are still a lot of them out there, especially on the European market.


----------



## Over Drive

Gents, thanks for the info. Much Obliged.



RiverRatt said:


> From left to right, you have an RFT, Philips (if this is the one with Gt. Britain and B1E on it, It's a 1961 Blackburn Mullard), RFT and RFT.
> 
> The E83CC and ECC83 look like Chinese Shugang tubes as do the red print ones in the first photo. Sorry, but the MIJ tube is a Hitachi, probably from a 1970's Curtis Mathes TV. The seam all the way around gives it away.
> 
> If the Mullard and the RFT's test good, that's a decent bunch of tubes.


 
They all seem to work perfectly but I have no means of testing them. Which position would that Blackburn find a home?



MartyStrat54 said:


> The Chinese red labels look like 7th Generation Shuguangs. Do you have any idea how old they are, or what they were pulled from?
> 
> As Alan stated, you have three RFT's. They have very short plates and are a darker sounding tube in V1. RFT's were made in East Germany and there are still a lot of them out there, especially on the European market.


 
The Chinese red labels were pulled out of an old Peavey VTM60 I purchased a few (4-5?) years back. They have been sitting in the amp since I bought it. Unfortunately I have no other information on them. The VTM sounds great for an amp I purchased for $180 (pawnshop). It has barely been used though - I have a few Marshalls and an Orange kicking around that have my full attention. 

Would either of you gentlemen be so kind as to provide a starting point for me to mix and match these preamp tubes in the 2203? I am a hard rock kinda guy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would start with the Philips in V1. Then the Hitachi in V2 and a Shuguang in V3.

Now you say you are hard rock. Some guys like the Shuguang in V1. If you go this route, roll all of them and go with the quietest one. The Shuguangs tend to be a little heavy on the background "floor" noise.

I say your Philips is your best tube and I always stick my best tube in V1.


----------



## Over Drive

Thanks Marty. I sent a PM your way.


----------



## 61rocker

Over Drive said:


> Can anyone help identify these preamp tubes? I apologize for my poor photography.
> 
> "Red Label" Chinese No-Name 12AX7s?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are interesting. They were pulled from an old Traynor YVM-1 and I believe they were original. Three of the tubes have only "G 3" on top with "ECC83" below. The third has numerous markings including "PHILLIPS" with "GT-BRITAIN" along with "BIE" and "7025A/12AX7A" all in various places. Are these Phillips branded Mullards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The last three are a "ECC83" and "E83CC" respectively with an interesting tube marked "Japan" with illegible blue markings in between those two.
> 
> I think the ECC83 and the E83CC might have come out of a used Orange OR50H or a used Vox Night Train I purchased but I could be mistaken - not that it matters. Is the E83CC simply a higher grade or MIL spec version of the ECC83? Are these simply No-Name Chinese tubes or something different?
> 
> I have no clue what the "Japan" tube is. I have read something about seams in the top but it seems to me that there is a seam in the glass running from the top to bottom of the tube. I pulled this out of V2 from an old '83 JCM800 I recently purchased. Please tell me this is a Matsushita production.  At any rate, that 800 sounds amazing even with Sovtex 12AX7WAs in V1 and V2. That said, I will definitely be experimenting with a few tubes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and any suggestions for that JCM800 2203? I have been thinking a matched quad of Tungsol EL34s to replace the current green label EHX EL34 quartet. I was also thinking of ordering a Tungsol 12AX7. Keep in mind I have the above 'mystery' tubes available. I also have a Sovtek 12AX7EH and Sovtek 12AX7LP (phase inverter maybe?) available. Lots to try out! Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks!


 I've got 5 of those Red Print 12ax7s I pulled from my '87 JCM800 2210. I don't know if they are stock or not....they are ok...not great....maybe a tone for recording.....I was told here a while back they were Chinese....they all test out on my tester at 80/80 with 50 minimum.....they sound kinda good in my 1959 SuperLead....give it some bite.....


----------



## 61rocker

I know this is the pre amp thread, but I can't find the power tube thread....I scored these off fleabay for $47 today....seller says they test out at 92% with a minimum of 70 which would make them compatable with my other Teslas.....if they work out, I now have my el34s situation all settled.....Next up hopefully is a Raytheon BP.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Shuguang (Chinese). The Shuguang's have undergone many design changes over the last few years and the Chinese plant has invested heavily in new tooling and materials. The 12AX7B is one of the latest generation tubes to come from the Chinese Shuguang factory and we feel is one of the best produced by them. Despite Chinese tubes having a bad reputation over the years we feel this latest tube is excellent. We found that the tube was very well balanced right across the frequency spectrum with little coloration noted in any part of the frequency curve. These tubes worked the best in our Leak 20/20 Hi Fi amplifier where a very articulate and well balanced sound stage was noted. In our guitar amp we were surprised yet again. Clean the tube sounded neutral and the true tone of our Strat and Gibson 355 was faithful. Driven into crunch these valves sounded really bluesy with a massive bottom end. At high gain the tube was not as quiet as the other two tubes tested but this did not cause problems and was only apparent at extremely high gain settings. The overdrive was smooth and detailed producing pleasing harmonics and overtones. We liked these tubes and was surprised at how well they actually performed. Particularly clean in Hi Fi and Crunchy blues.


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> I know this is the pre amp thread, but I can't find the power tube thread....I scored these off fleabay for $47 today....seller says they test out at 92% with a minimum of 70 which would make them compatable with my other Teslas.....if they work out, I now have my el34s situation all settled.....Next up hopefully is a Raytheon BP.....



That's too bad. I'll have to find the Power Tube thread and bump it. It used to be such a popular thread. It was always on Page 1 with the Preamp Tube thread. Sigh!


----------



## 61rocker

I know I got on it once when I first joined.....but I didn't leave a comment or I could have found it that way....preamp tubes are more interesting.....but I sure like Teslas...tight bottom end, natural smooth breakup, and natural mids and highs....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I found it. It was on Page 8 of Marshall Amps. (Yeah, the tube threads somehow ended up in the Marshall Amps section.)

I did a triple bump.


----------



## 61rocker

Thx...I posted there....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was doing some research for 61rocker and he had bought some tubes by Penta Labs. Apparently they are making a KT88, E34LS and an ECC83. I would be interested in trying the ECC83 and see how it compares to the Northern Electric.


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Those damn Sovtec EL84's are stiff as hell. I don't remember now what preamp tubes it came with...What pres came with yours?



I opened up my NT15 tonight to see what it has in there. They're all Sovteks, both the 2 12AX7 pres and the 2 EL84 power tubes. 


After hearing yours, Marty's and others opinions on the sound of these, I definitely want to find out how green the grass is on the other side, so to speak.

I'm planning to PM you about some tubes Marty, but first I want to open up my Blackheart BH1h and see what's in there, just as an fyi for you if it helps recommending something... PM enroute shortly (aka the next couple days)


----------



## brp

There's 2 JJ 12AX7's in the BH1h (1 pre, 1 for power). I like the sound of it but I assume some NOS would improve it. I would like a bit more gain from it and some mid warmth.

I played solid state for years because I couldn't really afford tube amps (on top of not knowing enough about them, maintainence etc.) but that's changed, both in terms of my income and in terms of the cost/availability of lower wattage tube amps.
Anyway, my point is, BOTH of these tube amps sounded really great to me when I got them since my reference point was solid state and I'll tell you, there's no going back now!
But I know there's even more great tone out there with NOS tubes upgrades etc. and I'm eager to chase me some of that tone.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Alan and Marty,

I'm looking for some oddballs for a project

2 - 7199's 
1- EF86 

And various 50C5, 12av6, 12at6 and 12sk7's.

If you have any laying around, let me know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Where ya been? I thought we lost you. I had a bunch of nice EF86's. I'll have to see if I have any left. I will have to pull some old inventory boxes out to look for them. I'll check those other numbers too. I really have streamlined to mainly 12XX7 tubes.


----------



## brp

Is this thing cool?

Stark/Hickok Tube Tester


Seems a good price for something so vintage. Assuming it works...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not really the type of tester you would use for anything other than display purposes. Very simple design that Stark produced for many years. These tube testers are everywhere. If you're looking to buy one, you should be able to find one for $30 or less. These are for very old tubes and the heater only goes to "11."


----------



## brp

Ah, ok. Was just poking around the local CL for what tubes might be on there and saw that, thought it looked cool but I don't know anything about testers.


Man, I literally grew up in a TV repair shop in the 70's. It was attached to our house, my dad's shop. He had a huge school locker sized cabinet full of tubes and a couple testers. Then when TV's became all solid state he got rid of it all, EVEN LET ME AND MY BRO smash tubes  cuz we used to ask him for old burnt out ones to smash. (not very responsible or safe, I know.)
He was pretty bitter that SS was killing his trade and livelyhood. He said tubes were a dead technology and would never be used again.
If I knew then what I know now!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Upon further review, the Penta Labs ECC83 is a 9th GEN Shuguang with extra testing.

Also known as the Groove Tubes 12AX7-C.

That is all. Carry on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

…the Psvane 12ax7s…. I put the pair I got in and they beat the pants off the NOS Telefunken tubes I had in it. They sound more open and have more organic detail. They are very relaxed and the performances just breathe more naturally. I really can’t believe how good they are.


----------



## MartyStrat54

???What??? Who the hell is Psvane?

After launching the 50 year anniversary Treasure series in 2008, a team inside Shuguang has been developing new additions to its high end tube line to include large power tubes and small preamp tubes. With venture capital from UK and countless testing by Treasure series’ original design team, a new series called “Psvane” (pronounced as ‘Pavane’ – the brand is created from the inspiration of the 17th century classic music dance) T-series has born in Aug 2010. The Psvane series is a further fine tuning over the Treasure series, and the brand is owned by a separate entity other than Shuguang Group itself.

The Pavane T-series now include the following models: 845, 805, 211, 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, EL84 and in May 2011 the following models have been officially launched to outside of China first by Grant Fidelity: 300B, KT88 and CV181 (6SN7). These last three models are MKII version of the equivalent Treasure tubes with further fine tuning of high fidelity sound. No eBay sellers in China or Hong Kong have ever been authorized by Psvane brand owner to sell the Psvane series tubes outside of China. Please be sure to purchase from authorized distributors and dealers to protect your investment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How much do they cost, Marty?

$83 for a pair of matched 12AX7's. (Sold in pairs only or quartets.)


----------



## Lowlife

Heh Marty
Did some chinese hacker steal your account?

Sounds interesting though, a bit odd they only sell them as matched pairs


----------



## Over Drive

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not really the type of tester you would use for anything other than display purposes. Very simple design that Stark produced for many years. These tube testers are everywhere. If you're looking to buy one, you should be able to find one for $30 or less. These are for very old tubes and the heater only goes to "11."


 
What model(s) of tube tester should tubes be tested on? I see Lord Valve raving about the digital Maxi-Matcher which is about $500. In an older post you mentioned you need a tester that costs in the thousands. Are those digital testers industry standard now?


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Alan and Marty,
> 
> I'm looking for some oddballs for a project
> 
> 2 - 7199's
> 1- EF86
> 
> And various 50C5, 12av6, 12at6 and 12sk7's.
> 
> If you have any laying around, let me know.



Believe it or not, I actually have a couple of 7199's. My old Ampeg uses them as a phase inverter. I've got one in the amp and another for a spare. They are expensive and hard to find. You'd be better off to use a 6GH8A or similar. All you have to do is swap 3 wires on the tube socket IIRC.

I don't have any EF86's at all, but I probably have those other odd tubes you mentioned. I'll dig through my stash and see what I come up with.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> ???What??? Who the hell is Psvane?
> 
> After launching the 50 year anniversary Treasure series in 2008, a team inside Shuguang has been developing new additions to its high end tube line to include large power tubes and small preamp tubes. With venture capital from UK and countless testing by Treasure series’ original design team, a new series called “Psvane” (pronounced as ‘Pavane’ – the brand is created from the inspiration of the 17th century classic music dance) T-series has born in Aug 2010. The Psvane series is a further fine tuning over the Treasure series, and the brand is owned by a separate entity other than Shuguang Group itself.
> 
> The Pavane T-series now include the following models: 845, 805, 211, 12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7, EL84 and in May 2011 the following models have been officially launched to outside of China first by Grant Fidelity: 300B, KT88 and CV181 (6SN7). These last three models are MKII version of the equivalent Treasure tubes with further fine tuning of high fidelity sound. No eBay sellers in China or Hong Kong have ever been authorized by Psvane brand owner to sell the Psvane series tubes outside of China. Please be sure to purchase from authorized distributors and dealers to protect your investment.



This is the first I've heard of these. Berry interesting...and xpensive.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where ya been? I thought we lost you. I had a bunch of nice EF86's. I'll have to see if I have any left. I will have to pull some old inventory boxes out to look for them. I'll check those other numbers too. I really have streamlined to mainly 12XX7 tubes.



Hey Marty,

Nope, I'm still hear. Was out of town for the weekend and admittedly I have been laying a bit low until the shit storm passes here. 


I spent the weekend with my surrogate dad Ron digging through his old amps, radio's and jukeboxes (pics to follow soon). 

Thanks Marty! Let me know what you find! Oh, and PM me what you want for the EF86's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Heh Marty
> Did some chinese hacker steal your account?
> 
> Sounds interesting though, a bit odd they only sell them as matched pairs



He-he. I'm trying to liven this place up.

These tubes are geared for HiFi users and therefore the matched pair for a HiFi amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Marty! Let me know what you find! Oh, and PM me what you want for the EF86's.



Well I dug around for a while and I had a spot in my mind, but when I found it, it was three brand new Mullard 7247's (12DW7). I dug around further and found 12 black plate 12AU7's. I then looked in my Russian stash. Close but no cigar.

It looks like I am dry on EF86's. I know I had some, but a guy bought an organ amp off of me and I think they ended up with him.

I'll look again, but I think I am dry.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Thanks for looking Marty!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Believe it or not, I actually have a couple of 7199's. My old Ampeg uses them as a phase inverter. I've got one in the amp and another for a spare. They are expensive and hard to find. You'd be better off to use a 6GH8A or similar. All you have to do is swap 3 wires on the tube socket IIRC.
> 
> I don't have any EF86's at all, but I probably have those other odd tubes you mentioned. I'll dig through my stash and see what I come up with.



Thanks Alan! 

If I have to, I'll go with 6GH8A or 6U8A and buy a converter socket or jumper it, but it's part of a really old printed board (see below) and I want to do as little messing with it as I can.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys, 

So here are a couple of things we dove into this weekend (sorry, it's a big post).

One of the Sebring Jukeboxes (Ron has two). What a rats nest! 






The Radios - we were able to breathe some life into the blue Zenith and the Emerson with some tube testing and swapping and general clean up (1 and two from the right) 











And this is the one I'm looking for tubes for, Rons Heathkit 201, 100 watt power amp. He built it when he was a Junior in high school and still has the assembly manual.


----------



## RiverRatt

What's the board out of? I don't think I've ever seen anything besides an Ampeg use 7199's. My 1968 Ampeg has an unbelievably thick board with huge traces and pads, but it still fried at some point. Looks like one of the 6L6GC's went nuclear and took out everything around the socket. It was jumpered with solid core copper wire and honestly it's as good as new but when I opened up the amp and saw it the first time I about had a stroke! I went over it with a magnifying glass and a soldering iron to be sure, but it was a good job.

I think I paid around $30 for a 7199 last year that tested at like 85%. I think I even have a few 6GH8A's somewhere but they are weak.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> What's the board out of? I don't think I've ever seen anything besides an Ampeg use 7199's. My 1968 Ampeg has an unbelievably thick board with huge traces and pads, but it still fried at some point. Looks like one of the 6L6GC's went nuclear and took out everything around the socket. It was jumpered with solid core copper wire and honestly it's as good as new but when I opened up the amp and saw it the first time I about had a stroke! I went over it with a magnifying glass and a soldering iron to be sure, but it was a good job.
> 
> I think I paid around $30 for a 7199 last year that tested at like 85%. I think I even have a few 6GH8A's somewhere but they are weak.



It out of the Heathkit amp pictured above. It is super heavy duty and the traces are great, but it is old and has been subjected to some pretty extreme temps as it was stored in the garage for a long time.

I found a few on ebay (even a pair from a Heathkit amp) but I thought I would hit you and Marty up first.


----------



## sccloser

6GH8A...sounds like something :I might have.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> 6GH8A...sounds like something :I might have.



Thansk SC, let me know.

I have a few, but I have not tested them yet.


----------



## sccloser

MM:

OK, this is what I found:

I have two (2) 6GH8A tubes, used, one is an ITT the other is an RCA.
I have two (2) 6GH8 tubes, used, one is a GE the other an RCA.
I have one (1) 6HG8 / ECF86, NOS, GE.

If you are interested I'll test them on my tester.


----------



## sccloser

I may have some more used *tubes* but they are at my mother's (have a a few boxes of old stuff there that belonged to my dad).

I have a pretty little Matsushita 6LN8...what would that be good for?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a handful of 50C5's, but most of my 7-pin tubes are 6 volt. I've got a couple of sacks of them so I have more to go through, but it doesn't look promising. I did find either a 12AT6 or a 2AT6. I've been thinking about going back to the lady's house where I got the Mullard EL34's and all the goodies and seeing if she'll let me go in there with a box of hefty bags and take it all. I should have a couple of everything if I do that.


----------



## eljeffebrown

Just wanted to come in and thank Marty, now my amp lives in the MARTIMUS MAXIMUS tone zone, forever to destroy small woodland creatures at 200 paces!


----------



## RiverRatt

eljeffebrown said:


> Just wanted to come in and thank Marty, now my amp lives in the MARTIMUS MAXIMUS tone zone, forever to destroy small woodland creatures at 200 paces!



Welcome to our addiction!  

What did you end up with?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sent Jeff a High Gain Black Plate for V1. This is a 900DR amp and the BP works very nice to smooth out some of the peaky treble in this amp. A vintage GE for V2 and a high gain, lopsided Sylvania for V3. I also included an extra Black Plate for a spare V1. 

This was a complementary set. Just trying to help a working musician out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Scott-I did some looking on EBAY and the EF86's are about $27 to $35 each. Probably be better to go with the EH EF86 for $17. The 12AT6's are dirt cheap for NOS. The 12SK7 brand new is less than $5. There's two guys that are selling tube bundles including a 12AV6 and a 50C5 for $5 and $10. Lots of options on EBAY for the 7199. Here is a copy of a search page. One guys has loaded adapters for $32.

7199 | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

I meant to post this several days ago. NJ7P is down due to a server problem with Duncan.


----------



## RiverRatt

I downloaded the Duncan TDSL personal edition ages ago. I like it 'cuz you can open as many instances of the app as you need. Makes it easy to compare data sheets between tube types. It's one of my go-to apps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and Duncan screwed NJ7P and apparently does not give a shit about helping NJ7P get back up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Correction-It's hard to keep up with everything, but I sent Jeff an RCA for the PI.

Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I tried to stay up late and hang with you nite owls... where's the party?


----------



## solarburn

I'm off to work brudders! Have a good one!


----------



## MartyStrat54

See ya later Joe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I tried to stay up late and hang with you nite owls... where's the party?



Well Joe's already gone. I've been staying up late the past week or so.


----------



## Lowlife

When preamp tubes lose the vacuum, do they go all white, or just a little?

I swapped the 12AX7 tube in my old VS8080, and it looked like it was white'ish at the bottom inside part of the glass.

I had hopes for the tube, but discovered it was just like the old no-name ones i pulled out of the 900DR, except Marshall labelled. Which i believe clever heads here identified to being Shuguangs. Now of course if it HAS lost its vacuum, that is of no importance.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes the tube will get what appears to be a white coating on the internal parts. The getter will get real white as there is a chemical reaction to the outside air. If it is just down at the bottom, You may have a real small crack around one pin. Nonetheless, if it's white, it's trash.


----------



## solarburn

You mean its "white trash"?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29RnY0H7cj4&ob=av2n]Theory of a Deadman - Lowlife - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good recording technique. That Marshall sounded like a bear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh??? Sure enough. It's a JCM 800. Probably a 2203.


----------



## solarburn

This song has been getting a lot of radio play over here. Seems like every night this week when I head to work I get a dose of it. Thought the vid was funny. Big guitar and Marshall amp...turn it up!.


----------



## solarburn

All he needs to complete that set up is a "Martimus Tone Pack"!

Then there "wood" be some nude shots of the women in that vid too!


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I may have some more used *tubes* but they are at my mother's (have a a few boxes of old stuff there that belonged to my dad).
> 
> I have a pretty little Matsushita 6LN8...what would that be good for?



Hey SC, I think I am going to try and stick with the 7199 for now to avoid the re-wire. I will drop you a line if it doesn't work out.

Thanks for looking my friend!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey fellas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey fellas.



Did you see my post about the 7199's for sale on EBAY. I looked up all the other tubes for you. They are all available and several are cheap for NOS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Attention-Would you be so kind as to go to the top right side of the page and use the drop down arrow on "Ratings" and check the "Excellent" box? This thread should have a five star rating and it is only four. Believe it or not, I just voted myself. Let's all vote and get this puppy up to FIVE STARS.

This message will be repeated in a few days.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Attention-Would you be so kind as to go to the top right side of the page and use the drop down arrow on "Ratings" and check the "Excellent" box? This thread should have a five star rating and it is only four. Believe it or not, I just voted myself. Let's all vote and get this puppy up to FIVE STARS.
> 
> This message will be repeated in a few days.


Done Marty....Hey, I dropped by my favorite guitar shop in Little Rock today...I had to replace a tube socket...anyway, I had bought a JJ 12ax7 that crapped out on me....he's a very good guy and offered to replace it...anyway, he usually has a small box of "pulls" from amps he retubes..amazing the stuff people leave him, anyway at my request, he let me look thru them and pick out any one I wanted....I found some interesting 12au7s, 12at7s....I didn't take any of those today, but one was a blackplate that had no name on it....and several USA tubes in there... GE, ECB, Tungsram (Holland)....anyway...I did find a 7025 without a brand name but it had
USA
7025
V1 printed in white or light yellow on it...I took that one...he usually will sell me his pulls for dirt cheap, and they have been tested.....I could probably get the other ones for a good price next time I go....I need to review how best to use them...(maybe sell or trade?)....The Sylvanias that came with the auction I won have gotta be from the 70s, they have the "S" sheild with the lightning bolt thru it... small USA under the sheild...yellow print....they have a 12AX7A at the top in Red like a relable... USA under that....then in Yellow

12AX7A ECC83
Sylvania (in larger letters)
and beside that CB with AFG under that...
they tested out at 87/86......86/86.....84/82 
I'll post some pics when I get back to my computer in Memphis..
I see these routinely posted on ebay anywhere form $25 to maybe $35 and not necessarily NOS....
getting back to the "pulls" box...there were some other goodies in there too but I would have to look again....many USA tubes.....some very old Sovtek el84s....a couple of rectifiers....6L6s.....one or two 6v6...again most were US, some were more current...
The no name 7025 is checking in at 76/77 it has very unusual micas on it, the sides of them are straight and away from the glass, the front and back are curved like normal.... and an O or Halo getter...very clean looking...pic later....on the bottom it has the number 3 engraved in between the pins where the gap is.....any idea what brand that might be without a pic to look at?......


----------



## sccloser

OK, I voted *****. And I am still lurking around at this late hour...


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey SC, I think I am going to try and stick with the 7199 for now to avoid the re-wire. I will drop you a line if it doesn't work out.
> 
> Thanks for looking my friend!



Ok. Just let me know if you need them. At least I now know I have a few tubes in the old caddy that are still useful. I got a lot of tubes but most are only good for televisions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man it's funny how strong old Sylvania 12AX7's are. I get mine from a guy who does organ pulls and they are crazy strong. They super strong make great PI tubes.

The number "3" isn't ringing a bell at the moment. Maybe by looking at a picture, Alan or I might know what it is.


----------



## thrawn86

Already voted before. 5 star all the way, baby.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you see my post about the 7199's for sale on EBAY. I looked up all the other tubes for you. They are all available and several are cheap for NOS.



Got it Marty, Thanks! I had seen them prior, but I thought I would ask you and the other glass hounds first.


----------



## sccloser

Signing off.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Actually, $60 to $70 for a pair of NOS 7199's isn't that bad. I think you could get that amp retubed for around $125. Other than the EF86's, the rest of the tubes are quite cheap.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man it's funny how strong old Sylvania 12AX7's are. I get mine from a guy who does organ pulls and they are crazy strong. They super strong make great PI tubes.
> 
> The number "3" isn't ringing a bell at the moment. Maybe by looking at a picture, Alan or I might know what it is.


 

On the "3".....I said engraved, but it's more like molded in the glass right where the gap between the pins is.....also, there appears to be a seam, but not sure....I don't think I've ever seen the "seam" before, so not sure...it goes up and down the tube from bottom to the top....I saw an RCA that really looked like it on ebay.....
So, I go nap to catch all the nite owls here and.....


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Attention-Would you be so kind as to go to the top right side of the page and use the drop down arrow on "Ratings" and check the "Excellent" box? This thread should have a five star rating and it is only four. Believe it or not, I just voted myself. Let's all vote and get this puppy up to FIVE STARS.
> 
> This message will be repeated in a few days.



Done...


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> On the "3".....I said engraved, but it's more like molded in the glass right where the gap between the pins is.....also, there appears to be a seam, but not sure....I don't think I've ever seen the "seam" before, so not sure...it goes up and down the tube from bottom to the top....I saw an RCA that really looked like it on ebay.....
> So, I go nap to catch all the nite owls here and.....



I've only ever seen one brand of tube with a seam from top to bottom and that's a Hitachi. Probably 1970's production.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I've only ever seen one brand of tube with a seam from top to bottom and that's a Hitachi. Probably 1970's production.


 I am probably wrong about the seam, it was probably a reflection of the light last nite...it def says USA on it....can't wait to plug it in tonite when I get back to Memphis...I'll post a pic of it, but I only have a phone cam...........I think I'm set on tubes for awhile....do want a Raytheon....and I need a couple of 6550As....


----------



## 61rocker

OK....I got the fever....stopped by The Shop on my way out of town today and picked up 3 more 12ax7s..... 
1) Pinnacle Branded....nice print left but no country of origin.....has
Pinnacle with a big P emblem...right under the large P is small code: ICA991? can't read, too small and not smudged, but not too clean print....then numbers 710
ECC83/12AX7 nothing on the glass engraved or molded....80/80

2) ECI Electronics......nice print also has the ECI emblem 12AX7 above that , no country of origin.... vertical numbers very small 1022603?, a code of B511, and it has a backwards N or Z depending how you look at it...... tests 82/82

3) Really smudged print Japan 7025......yellow or orange print....really faded or smudged looks to end with the letter VO but I dont' think it says Valvo.... Has 
Japan K4 printed on it ....has the seam.....Hitachi? Alan.....and in the circle on the bottem has 27 molded in the glass ....tests out at 74/74 about what the other 7025 tests that I got yesterday...all in all I got all four for $30....fair enuff....

I have seen the Pinnacle and the ECI grouped in with others in lots on ebay....Sorry about the bad pic....I need a digi cam bad.....


----------



## RiverRatt

If #2 has seams in the top and that B-code, it's a Blackburn Mullard. I have seen the 1022 _ _ _ code on Mullards too, but I don't know what it means. Maybe a factory lot number or something.

#3 could be a Matsushita, although the date code is backwards. It should be a number followed by a letter. The number is the year and the letter is the week. Are the seams just on the top of the tube? If so, it's definitely a 'Shita.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well I just spent the last two and a half hours packing up tubes to bring home. I have four 33-gallon Hefty bags that are full in the backseat, and another bag and four cardboard boxes in the trunk. I'm going to be doing tube inventory for the next month! I'm not looking for any real treasures but you never know what you'll find. That means going through them and looking inside every box, too. I'm going to enter them into a spreadsheet while I'm at it so I'll know what I have. I may have to go into business with this haul.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> If #2 has seams in the top and that B-code, it's a Blackburn Mullard. I have seen the 1022 _ _ _ code on Mullards too, but I don't know what it means. Maybe a factory lot number or something.
> 
> #3 could be a Matsushita, although the date code is backwards. It should be a number followed by a letter. The number is the year and the letter is the week. Are the seams just on the top of the tube? If so, it's definitely a 'Shita.


 The #2 has the seam on top..........the brand is CMI not whatever I mistyped on the other post...Cool if it's Mullard...makes sense, I have another that is supposed to be a Mullard and it had the same werid backward Z or N on the glass on bottom...
The Japanese tube sounds AWESOME>>>>wow, never would've thought....has the seam all the way up one side, across the top, and down the other.....no question about it....it's a Magnavox.....hmmm....I can make it out...the code is def K4, that is very clear....yep Magnavox....it sounds great dude....full bodied...
hear goes the CMI/Mullard in the amp now...very natural and 3D...I hear all the notes very well.....BTW, the tubes in the pic is not in order with what I numbered the text....doh......


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> I am probably wrong about the seam, it was probably a reflection of the light last nite...it def says USA on it....can't wait to plug it in tonite when I get back to Memphis...I'll post a pic of it, but I only have a phone cam...........I think I'm set on tubes for awhile....do want a Raytheon....and I need a couple of 6550As....



A frank comment about "country of origin." In the final era of NOS manufacturing, the big tube companies all helped each other fill big orders. Now this always has occurred, such as CBS 12AX7's made by GE for instance. The bottom line was that in the 50's and part of the 60's, this tube swapping was USA made tubes. 

When the tube giants started folding (RCA in 1977) they still wanted to sell tubes. RCA was almost criminal in what they did. When they got caught, no heavy fine was imposed. All they were told to do was put the tubes country of origin on the tube itself. If you look at certain RCA (and other brands) boxes, you will see a very small disclaimer that states this. It is very hard to see if you are not looking for it.

However, this means nothing. For you new guys, I have bought RCA's that say on the tubes, "Made in Gt. Britain." However, they were actually Ei smooth plates. Imagine in 1979 that you needed a tube and it came from a communist country. RCA could not get their hands dirty, so "Philips" came to the rescue as they were buying and making tubes all over Europe and the UK. They did the dirty work of buying Ei tubes and then having Mullard relabel them with the, "Made in Gt. Britain" logo. 

A while back, there was a guy selling NOS EL34's made by Philips ECG. Well this was the old Sylvania plant and Sylvania made damn nice power tubes. Philips sold off all of the good Sylvania tubes and then started selling Russian military tubes in the ECG boxes. That's what this guy had. He skirted his comments to avoid stating where they were made.

The point I'm making is that the tube can say "USA" on it and be made elsewhere. Raytheon quit making tubes and filled all their orders with the "Select" and "Certified" brands from Japan. This was to include power tubes. Some of the tubes say "USA" on them with a very, very small print that says, "Made in Japan." Many tubes were sold in regular company branded boxes without the disclaimer on the box. Our government wasn't watching what the tube makers were doing until it got way out of hand and like I say, at that point, no fines that I can recall were ever handed down. They had to comply with what the FTC handed down.

Again, besides tube quality, this is just another reason why I try to buy older tubes made prior to 1967.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Well I just spent the last two and a half hours packing up tubes to bring home. I have four 33-gallon Hefty bags that are full in the backseat, and another bag and four cardboard boxes in the trunk. I'm going to be doing tube inventory for the next month! I'm not looking for any real treasures but you never know what you'll find. That means going through them and looking inside every box, too. I'm going to enter them into a spreadsheet while I'm at it so I'll know what I have. I may have to go into business with this haul.


 
The Mother Load.....where did you find all of that?
The Pinnacle Branded one is next...
I would like to get into selling tubes....I think you understand the reason....


----------



## 61rocker

Great Post Marty...I remember in one of your posts, you were telling someone about being careful and that things got haywire after or around '66.....I guess we just have to plug and listen on some of them?? and not get ripped off....BTW the guy with the Teslovaks did give me a discount....I decided to keep them.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

How much did you pay for this massive stash? If they were all common power tubes and 12XX7 tubes, I'd say, "Well done." However, I think that most of them are vintage TV and radio tubes. There really isn't a market for these tubes. No one wants a fully restored 1949 Zenith TV. If there are some HAM tubes, those will sell and so will GE Compactrons (certain types). 

Where are you planning on storing all of these tubes? I get upset with just my inventory taking up space, but at least I am selling them.


----------



## 61rocker

Ya know Marty....Ratt's not too far from me...I may have see what he's got going there....The Pinacle Brand tube in V1 also sounds GREAT!!....


----------



## 61rocker

I have a vintage Mullard that flashes everytime I put it in my tester...Is that what is referred to as a "Flasher" and some people claim that's a good thing...are they just trying to sell their tubes? When I bought my tester , the guy I got it from had a tube he pulled from an ancient Altec Tube Power Amp that flashed....I can't remember the brand, but it tested very strong...like this Mullard I have...tests and sounds very strong....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How much did you pay for this massive stash? If they were all common power tubes and 12XX7 tubes, I'd say, "Well done." However, I think that most of them are vintage TV and radio tubes. There really isn't a market for these tubes. No one wants a fully restored 1949 Zenith TV. If there are some HAM tubes, those will sell and so will GE Compactrons (certain types).
> 
> Where are you planning on storing all of these tubes? I get upset with just my inventory taking up space, but at least I am selling them.



$200. My wife is already giving me grief. I'm always bringing stuff into the house saying I'm going to sell it, never do, etc...

I'm thinking I'll cull out all the tubes my HAM buddy wants, put the other usable ones on eBay, then I may put a thousand or two on Craigslist with a "make an offer" sale. I don't care as long as I make my $200 back. These all came from the shop where I got the Mullard xf2's and 7591's. 

The thing is, probably at least two or three hundred of the boxes were re-marked in ink that's long-since faded. Apparently this guy didn't believe in the concept of a junk tube catch-all box. He re-labeled boxes and stored them in those. There's really no way of telling what I've got without opening each box and checking. I've already found three old 6L6GC's. One is an RCA Black Plate and one is an ancient 6L6GC with the Fender logo on the base. It's a really tall bottle, too. I know I've seen one like it before but I can't remember where. The other is a GE with suspicious looking flashing. It may be bad.

Anybody want to spend a Saturday sorting though tubes?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> $200. My wife is already giving me grief. I'm always bringing stuff into the house saying I'm going to sell it, never do, etc...
> 
> I'm thinking I'll cull out all the tubes my HAM buddy wants, put the other usable ones on eBay, then I may put a thousand or two on Craigslist with a "make an offer" sale. I don't care as long as I make my $200 back. These all came from the shop where I got the Mullard xf2's and 7591's.
> 
> The thing is, probably at least two or three hundred of the boxes were re-marked in ink that's long-since faded. Apparently this guy didn't believe in the concept of a junk tube catch-all box. He re-labeled boxes and stored them in those. There's really no way of telling what I've got without opening each box and checking. I've already found three old 6L6GC's. One is an RCA Black Plate and one is an ancient 6L6GC with the Fender logo on the base. It's a really tall bottle, too. I know I've seen one like it before but I can't remember where. The other is a GE with suspicious looking flashing. It may be bad.
> 
> Anybody want to spend a Saturday sorting though tubes?



You buy the beer Alan, oh and the plane ticket, and I'm there!


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> $200. My wife is already giving me grief. I'm always bringing stuff into the house saying I'm going to sell it, never do, etc...
> 
> I'm thinking I'll cull out all the tubes my HAM buddy wants, put the other usable ones on eBay, then I may put a thousand or two on Craigslist with a "make an offer" sale. I don't care as long as I make my $200 back. These all came from the shop where I got the Mullard xf2's and 7591's.
> 
> The thing is, probably at least two or three hundred of the boxes were re-marked in ink that's long-since faded. Apparently this guy didn't believe in the concept of a junk tube catch-all box. He re-labeled boxes and stored them in those. There's really no way of telling what I've got without opening each box and checking. I've already found three old 6L6GC's. One is an RCA Black Plate and one is an ancient 6L6GC with the Fender logo on the base. It's a really tall bottle, too. I know I've seen one like it before but I can't remember where. The other is a GE with suspicious looking flashing. It may be bad.
> 
> Anybody want to spend a Saturday sorting though tubes?


Like I said...I'm not too far away.....lol....I'd be interested in anything you've got that I could use....plz let me know....not to mention those Teslas you posted on the power amp thread....was this the guy on CL in Memphis....??


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Like I said...I'm not too far away.....lol....I'd be interested in anything you've got that I could use....plz let me know....not to mention those Teslas you posted on the power amp thread....was this the guy on CL in Memphis....??



No, Jackson TN. He said he'd be selling more tubes and stuff. I haven't checked it in awhile.

I don't know what I'm going to do with all these tubes. I don't even have room to bring them all in from the car. I may have to process them one box/bag at a time.


----------



## johnfv

A wise man once said:
*That's what I like about you Alan...you got it bad. You're a tube-aholic...*


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I think it may be time to start attending 12-step meetings. This is getting out of hand.


----------



## 61rocker

"Hello, my Name is Alan...and I'm a Tubeaholic...."

To me that sounds like fun...wish I had that problem....let me know where you list these when you start doing so.....


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think there's going to be a lot of treasures in here, unless you're into Compactrons and sweep tubes. I've found a lot of 6BQ6's so far. Theoretically they should work well as a guitar amp power tube, but they are only worth maybe $2 each. I also found a bunch of 7AU7's. Who the hell needs a 7-volt 12AU7? I've got my laptop ready to go - I'm just going to type each tube's number in Excel and then sort the list and see how many of each I have. The real challenge will be going back and finding where I put them. I'm going to have to hit the liquor stores and get a LOT of boxes and label them. What I really need is a bunch of beer flats. One layer of tubes per box.

I bought a Phantom linear and some tubes from a guy this past weekend for $100. I don't think I'm going to make much on the deal, though. That Phantom is worth around $300+ in good operating condition. IIRC it uses 12 6LQ6's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Approximately what percentage of these are NOS/NIB?

You got anything that Scott is looking for?


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, if any of you guys need any specific tubes, post the numbers here and I'll do my best to pick them out as I sort through these. I gave up for the night. Too much work and I've only been home a couple of hours. 

After carting tubes I had to go cover a Jr. High football game. Ever seen those clips where the photographer is on the sidelines looking through his lens snapping away and realizes too late that the play is heading right at him? That was me! I got run all the fuck over but didn't go down. Got some killer shots, too. Up close and personal.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Approximately what percentage of these are NOS/NIB?
> 
> You got anything that Scott is looking for?



Probably around 80% NOS NIB. Most are Lindal and ITT boxes which could be anything. Those I'm going to take at face value. The re-labeled boxes are the ones where the goodies will be. Last time I was there I picked up maybe 20 or 30 of those boxes and ended up with a Tungsram and a Raytheon black plate 12AX7. I think I may take the bulk of those over to HAM dude's house this weekend and let him go through them with me. Those guys are into some weird tubes. 

I've been on the lookout for Scott some EF86's and its subs but so far no dice. There are a LOT of 7-pin tubes, though. I might come up with some of those. I know I have a lot of 50C5's.

What is that ultra-rugged 6L6GC substitute? I've been looking at so many different numbers that I can't remember a flippin' thing.

I looked high and low for a Variac while I was in there. She did have an old Sencore isolated power supply with a variable voltage dial. I might pick that up next time. Most of the test equipment is Sencore and B&K but it mostly pertains to color TV testing. There is a cool little gadget that's a resistor/capacitor substitution box. That would be neat to have if I was building amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> What is that ultra-rugged 6L6GC substitute?



I believe you are thinking of the 7581A. These bring close to $200 for a matched pair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

7027 and 7027A's bring real good money. Of course, you will have hit a home run if you find any matched 8417's.


----------



## solarburn

Since you guys have mentioned 7591's look at this Univox on the "other amp" forum...

http://www.marshallforum.com/other-amps/32591-nad-univox-u320apb-pics.html


The tube compliment (as per the chassis) is 
7591 7591 12AX7 12AU7 12AX7 6AN6 12AX7


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, I found a Night Train on CL for $300. That seems like a decent price. I'm hesitant to do the deal, though. I've kinda got my sights set on picking up another Tweaker head. Is the NT a versatile amp or a one-trick pony? I already know what the Tweaker will do. I sent Moose a pair of those 6P3C's for his Tweaker and he loved the tone.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, I found a Night Train on CL for $300. That seems like a decent price. I'm hesitant to do the deal, though. I've kinda got my sights set on picking up another Tweaker head. Is the NT a versatile amp or a one-trick pony? I already know what the Tweaker will do. I sent Moose a pair of those 6P3C's for his Tweaker and he loved the tone.



I'd go for the Tweaker if you want more tonal options. I like the tones in the NT but they will have the same character per voicing(2). Course it will get more as you use different guitars but the Tweaker will cover more tonal ground per guitar.


----------



## solarburn

Doesn't the Tweaker have a loop too?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Probably around 80% NOS NIB. Most are Lindal and ITT boxes which could be anything. Those I'm going to take at face value. The re-labeled boxes are the ones where the goodies will be. Last time I was there I picked up maybe 20 or 30 of those boxes and ended up with a Tungsram and a Raytheon black plate 12AX7. I think I may take the bulk of those over to HAM dude's house this weekend and let him go through them with me. Those guys are into some weird tubes.
> 
> I've been on the lookout for Scott some EF86's and its subs but so far no dice. There are a LOT of 7-pin tubes, though. I might come up with some of those. I know I have a lot of 50C5's.
> 
> What is that ultra-rugged 6L6GC substitute? I've been looking at so many different numbers that I can't remember a flippin' thing.
> 
> I looked high and low for a Variac while I was in there. She did have an old Sencore isolated power supply with a variable voltage dial. I might pick that up next time. Most of the test equipment is Sencore and B&K but it mostly pertains to color TV testing. There is a cool little gadget that's a resistor/capacitor substitution box. That would be neat to have if I was building amps.



Hey Alan,

Dont forget about the 7199!!! 

I am also looking for some 
50C5's. 
12BE6
12AV6
12AT6
12SK7

Let me know if you spot some.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Approximately what percentage of these are NOS/NIB?
> 
> You got anything that Scott is looking for?



Thanks Marty!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. It has a tube-driven FX loop but that's not a big deal to me. I run everything in front of the amp. I really did like the different voicings on the Tweaker 15. It's an extremely versatile little amp. I can cover all the tones about as well with my Marshall, Fender and Ampeg, but that's like taking a music store with you when you play out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Alan,
> 
> Dont forget about the 7199!!!
> 
> I am also looking for some
> 50C5's.
> 12BE6
> 12AV6
> 12AT6
> 12SK7
> 
> Let me know if you spot some.



Apparently those 12-volt versions are pretty rare, at least in my stash. I have all of those in 6-volt tubes IIRC. I'll be on the lookout for them, but it may take me a month to sort out what I've got. There's an unbelievable amount of tubes to go throught.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Sup Joe!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Sup Joe!



Howdee Scott!

You get'n the same Sun we are?

Aboot time man!


----------



## RiverRatt

I love this weather. We literally went from 100° days to nice fall temps in one day. Saturday was hot as a fuck, then Sunday we had a tropical storm blow in and it's been in the 70's ever since. The only drawback is I'm going to have to cut my grass again. I'm ready for that shit to go dormant for a few months. Our mower took a shit the first time we fired it up in the spring and I have to go haul my dad's John Deere ZTR mower over here to cut the grass. Every time I use that thing I end up hanging the roll cage on a tree and standing it straight up or something similar. It's going to kill me if I keep using it. It hates me.


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Alan,
> 
> Dont forget about the 7199!!!
> 
> I am also looking for some
> 50C5's.
> 12BE6
> 12AV6
> 12AT6
> 12SK7
> 
> Let me know if you spot some.



I have a 12AT6, NOS RCA. And the 6HG8 and 6HG8A tubes you were asking about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I will say this again. Other than the 7199's and the EF86's, the rest of those tubes are very cheap for NOS on EBAY.


----------



## solarburn

> I love this weather. We literally went from 100° days to nice fall temps in one day. Saturday was hot as a fuck, then Sunday we had a tropical storm blow in and it's been in the 70's ever since. The only drawback is I'm going to have to cut my grass again. I'm ready for that shit to go dormant for a few months. Our mower took a shit the first time we fired it up in the spring and I have to go haul my dad's John Deere ZTR mower over here to cut the grass. Every time I use that thing I end up hanging the roll cage on a tree and standing it straight up or something similar. It's going to kill me if I keep using it. It hates me.




Yeah don't kill yourself on that thing. Our grass finally went dormant(died). I don't care if its green or golden. I prefer it dead so I don't have to mow. Big back yard. We're having a late summer here. At night it gets cold but the days are mid 80's and climbing to upper & nicking 90.

Our summer's been nuth'n until August to now. Bet it goes til October...


----------



## RiverRatt

I hate hot weather. Can't stand it. I'd rather it be 23 outside than 103. You should try living in the Tennessee Valley where those 103° temps are complimented by near 100% humidity. I just stay indoors. I worked outside in that oven until I was 18 or so. Nowadays I don't even want to walk to the mailbox.


----------



## sccloser

Hey Marty, 

Would a ECL84 work in place of an EL84 in a Marshall C5?


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> I will say this again. Other than the 7199's and the EF86's, the rest of those tubes are very cheap for NOS on EBAY.



They seem to sell on Ebay for around $2 to $6 pretty much.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I have a 12AT6, NOS RCA. And the 6HG8 and 6HG8A tubes you were asking about.



Hey SC,

What do you want for your 12AT6??


----------



## solarburn

I just took out the RFT in the tone slot and put in my Lorenz. Lost that mid meat of the RFT but man the Lorenz has some nice harmonic overtones that pop out and when I bend a note up and hold it sings into musical feed back nicely. If I had some money to burn I'd have Marty look out for some more for me and be hunting them too. Be nice to have 3 or 4 hehe.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I will say this again. Other than the 7199's and the EF86's, the rest of those tubes are very cheap for NOS on EBAY.



I know Marty, but I would much rather deal with "the family" here if I can than Ebay.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Howdee Scott!
> 
> You get'n the same Sun we are?
> 
> Aboot time man!



Hell yes! Nice weekend coming too for once!


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Would a ECL84 work in place of an EL84 in a Marshall C5?



Sorry, I'm not Marty but I did stay in a Holiday Inn.

Short answer: NO! They aren't even close to the same tube. The ECL84 is a triode/pentode setup.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I hate hot weather. Can't stand it. I'd rather it be 23 outside than 103. You should try living in the Tennessee Valley where those 103° temps are complimented by near 100% humidity. I just stay indoors. I worked outside in that oven until I was 18 or so. Nowadays I don't even want to walk to the mailbox.



The humidity makes it hell. I like about 75 to 85 tops. When it hits 90 and up here I start to shut down. 

I spent some time in Missouri during the summer when I was 19 and I couldn't believe how much humidity there was. I was always wet...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry, I'm not Marty but I did stay in a Holiday Inn.



Sig worthy!


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The humidity makes it hell. I like about 75 to 85 tops. When it hits 90 and up here I start to shut down.
> 
> I spent some time in Missouri during the summer when I was 19 and I couldn't believe how much humidity there was. I was always wet...



True! But, we get so damn much rain here that we have to get the sun when we can! 

Plus, the only thing that beats a 72 degree day in the NW, is possibly a 72 degree day in Hawaii!


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> True! But, we get so damn much rain here that we have to get the sun when we can!
> 
> Plus, the only thing that beats a 72 degree day in the NW, is possibly a 72 degree day in Hawaii!



Ain't that the truth!


----------



## sccloser

MM,

I have no idea. I really have no use for it that I can fathom. If it were worth much I would rather trade it, but it probably isn't worth more than $4, and probably not even that. If I have other things that you need, maybe we could do a bundle/trade deal.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> MM,
> 
> I have no idea. I really have no use for it that I can fathom. If it were worth much I would rather trade it, but it probably isn't worth more than $4, and probably not even that. If I have other things that you need, maybe we could do a bundle/trade deal.



Sounds good to me SC. Like I said to Marty, I would much rahter work with my fellow glass hounds here that Ebay. You have a tester too, correct? 

Anything on that list look familiar???


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry, I'm not Marty but I did stay in a Holiday Inn.
> 
> Short answer: NO! They aren't even close to the same tube. The ECL84 is a triode/pentode setup.



I thought I read where people were using them in audio amps (they are a tv tube I think) with some modification I believe.


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Sounds good to me SC. Like I said to Marty, I would much rahter work with my fellow glass hounds here that Ebay. You have a tester too, correct?
> 
> Anything on that list look familiar???



Yes, i have an Accurate 157. I can test it to make sure it is still good, though it is NOS. Has been sitting in a tube caddy for no less that 25 to 30 years and probably longer than that.

That was the only tube on your list that I had in the caddy. Now I may have some of the others, used, without boxes, but I will have to search for those.

Hang on, I have another stash that I just remembered. About 20 or so in there that I pulled out a few years ago for someone that changed their mind. I'll look there.


----------



## sccloser

MM,

I found one 12BE6, NOS RCA. It was in the other stash.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> BTW, if any of you guys need any specific tubes, post the numbers here and I'll do my best to pick them out as I sort through these. I gave up for the night. Too much work and I've only been home a couple of hours.
> 
> After carting tubes I had to go cover a Jr. High football game. Ever seen those clips where the photographer is on the sidelines looking through his lens snapping away and realizes too late that the play is heading right at him? That was me! I got run all the fuck over but didn't go down. Got some killer shots, too. Up close and personal.


 
Up close and personal at the game eh?....Shades of Joe Pa....
I don't need anything out of the ordinary....and in no hurry either...I would still like to be doing what you are....I guess I have a lot of time on my hands right now...
Here's a wish list tho:
12AX7s and such 7025s etc
EL84s
EL34s
6L6s for my nephew
6550s
6V6s
Just the usual stuff....

On a different note...I've been rolling the 12ax7s today...in my 2210. I ended the nite with
V1....The Mazda gold pin (it's really the best in V1 on this amp)
V2....The RCA Black Plate smooths out the rough edges
V3....The CMI you ID'd as a Mullard...great nuances there
V4....Reverb...I never use it so I don't waste a vintage one there Groove Tube 12AX7M there
V5...The other Mullard I have...been in my SuperLead since the 70s...it's the one that flashes in the tester
Nice crisp highs with a good mid prescense and tight ass bottoms going on...it's nice and warm when I roll off my guitar volume...and grinding but full bodied and 3 dimensional when driven....the Siemans are good Power Tubes....they loosened up a little after they warmed up....I don't think they had been played for a while....I'll roll more in V1 tomorrow nite....


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I thought I read where people were using them in audio amps (they are a tv tube I think) with some modification I believe.



There are all kinds of TV tubes with audio amplifiers built around them. Probably the most well-known is the 12BH7 that Blackstar is using in the HT-5. There's a Firefly amp that uses a 12AU7 as an output tube. 

I've also had portable stereo phonographs that used an ELL80 which is basically two low powered EL84's in a single 9-pin tube. That makes a stereo amp possible with only 2 tubes, or push-pull amp is possible with only a single preamp tube and phase inverter for the ELL80. If you really wanted to, you could even design a push-pull amp with only one 12AX7 and one ELL80.


----------



## sccloser

In case anyone needs any of these, I will list what I found while searching for tubes for MM:

(4) 35W4 NOS RCA
6AQ8 / ECC85 NOS GE Boxed, but Marked Telefunken (partial logo on side and diamond on base)
12AE7 NOS RCA
6BD6 NOS GE
6CA4 NOS GE
6GK6 NOS GE
6HU8/ELL 80 NOS AMPEREX GERMANY
6J5 NOS SYLVANIA 
25L6GT NOS RCA
6LR6 NOS SYLVANIA
40KG6A/PL509 NOS RCA (has one broken pin)

Most of these were requested from me about 5 years ago by a fellow who I think messed with ham radios, not sure, but anyway he changed his mind.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> MM,
> 
> I found one 12BE6, NOS RCA. It was in the other stash.



Thanks SC!

Any ideas what you want for them? I'm not sure what i would have that would make a good trade? I have a bunch of 12AT7's and 12AU7's I am going to sell soon.

Do you have a pay pal account?


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is a website (can't remember the name) of guys who build high quality hifi amps out of obsolete TV tubes. The tubes they use are like $3 to $8 bucks for NOS tubes. I'll see if I can find it. I believe they had schematics too. I may have saved the URL on a WORD document. I'll see if I can find it.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> There are all kinds of TV tubes with audio amplifiers built around them. Probably the most well-known is the 12BH7 that Blackstar is using in the HT-5. There's a Firefly amp that uses a 12AU7 as an output tube.
> 
> I've also had portable stereo phonographs that used an ELL80 which is basically two low powered EL84's in a single 9-pin tube. That makes a stereo amp possible with only 2 tubes, or push-pull amp is possible with only a single preamp tube and phase inverter for the ELL80. If you really wanted to, you could even design a push-pull amp with only one 12AX7 and one ELL80.



I have an Amperex el80, NOS.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is a website (can't remember the name) of guys who build high quality hifi amps out of obsolete TV tubes. The tubes they use are like $3 to $8 bucks for NOS tubes. I'll see if I can find it. I believe they had schematics too. I may have saved the URL on a WORD document. I'll see if I can find it.



Wow! Sounds cool Marty.


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks SC!
> 
> Any ideas what you want for them? I'm not sure what i would have that would make a good trade? I have a bunch of 12AT7's and 12AU7's I am going to sell soon.
> 
> Do you have a pay pal account?


I have a paypal account..I'll have to remember what it is...can let you know tomorrow. I think I can automatically access it from my work computer. I can't remember the email address I used on it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This was an all tube amp using some "modern" tubes.


----------



## 61rocker

I haven't seen the word "net" after prices since I was a kid.....


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is a website (can't remember the name) of guys who build high quality hifi amps out of obsolete TV tubes. The tubes they use are like $3 to $8 bucks for NOS tubes. I'll see if I can find it. I believe they had schematics too. I may have saved the URL on a WORD document. I'll see if I can find it.



Was it the Vacuum Tube Collective?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a bunch of those little sub-mini 7-pin tubes. They look like a 12AX7 had a baby. They are some pretty cool little twin triodes that can be made into nice audio amplifier preamps. They were used a lot as just that in the late 1960's - 1970's MIJ televisions. This is one I posted a long time back but pretty typical of the ones I'm finding in that bunch of tubes.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a bunch of those little sub-mini 7-pin tubes. They look like a 12AX7 had a baby. They are some pretty cool little twin triodes that can be made into nice audio amplifier preamps. They were used a lot as just that in the late 1960's - 1970's MIJ televisions. This is one I posted a long time back but pretty typical of the ones I'm finding in that bunch of tubes.



I have a few of these as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I gave up. You can't find shit when you are looking for it.


----------



## sccloser

Marty,

Was it the Vacuum Tube Collective?


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Was it the Vacuum Tube Collective?



No, that wasn't it.


----------



## sccloser

They build amps and post schematics. They uses 6aq5's for power tubes I think.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, just like GE tried to extend the tube era with Compactrons, other manufacturers tried to make the tube really small. Remember, some tubes got real small for avionics in the military. Those tubes, if you remember, had wire leads coming out of them.











BPB Surplus sells these for like $5 each. These were used in aircraft to make the end item smaller, such as radar and radio. However, there was no holding back the almighty transistor. It took over everything. Yuck!


----------



## sccloser

Ok, help me ID this tube please.

Marked 12ax7 on the side, up near the top. This 12ax7 is a little slimmer than the cp are. Has gray plates with three ribs. On the right side of each plate is two rectangular slots, but on the left side there is only one rectangular slot. The getter looks to be square shaped, with a flat piece of metal closing the far end of the square. 

Any ideas?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> $200. My wife is already giving me grief. I'm always bringing stuff into the house saying I'm going to sell it, never do, etc...
> 
> I'm thinking I'll cull out all the tubes my HAM buddy wants, put the other usable ones on eBay, then I may put a thousand or two on Craigslist with a "make an offer" sale. I don't care as long as I make my $200 back. These all came from the shop where I got the Mullard xf2's and 7591's.
> 
> The thing is, probably at least two or three hundred of the boxes were re-marked in ink that's long-since faded. Apparently this guy didn't believe in the concept of a junk tube catch-all box. He re-labeled boxes and stored them in those. There's really no way of telling what I've got without opening each box and checking. I've already found three old 6L6GC's. One is an RCA Black Plate and one is an ancient 6L6GC with the Fender logo on the base. It's a really tall bottle, too. I know I've seen one like it before but I can't remember where. The other is a GE with suspicious looking flashing. It may be bad.
> 
> Anybody want to spend a Saturday sorting though tubes?



I'm so jealous  I wouldn't care of 99% of them were useless if I was in your position, I just love tubes 

I'd help you sort them all weekend just for the chance to see them all if I could, but that's a hell of a long walk from Erie to get down there


----------



## Lowlife

Marty, a while back you asked if I could tell the difference when i rolled tubes in V2 on my 900 DR.

I finally got around to test it, and spend about an hour testing it thoroughly.

I tried tossing JJ's in V1 and V3, and some crap shuguang in V2, I then swapped the V2 for a telefunken, tung sol, phillips miniwatt and raytheon 12BZ7.

The result was that i think there was a teeeeeny difference in sound. But nothing that warrants spending money on a NOS tube, seriously!

I now run JJ's in V2 and V3, and I am trying a CBS 12BZ7 in V1, which sounds suprisingly good in that position.


----------



## 61rocker

MM54 said:


> I'm so jealous  I wouldn't care of 99% of them were useless if I was in your position, I just love tubes
> 
> I'd help you sort them all weekend just for the chance to see them all if I could, but that's a hell of a long walk from Erie to get down there


Yeah...that's the way I feel, and I don't even know the technical end...something apart from the function, quality, and all that is I love some of the logos on the tubes.....like the atom on that mini RR posted in the pic above.....But, I would love to help sort thru all that stuff.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Marty, a while back you asked if I could tell the difference when i rolled tubes in V2 on my 900 DR.
> 
> I finally got around to test it, and spend about an hour testing it thoroughly.
> 
> I tried tossing JJ's in V1 and V3, and some crap shuguang in V2, I then swapped the V2 for a telefunken, tung sol, phillips miniwatt and raytheon 12BZ7.
> 
> The result was that i think there was a teeeeeny difference in sound. But nothing that warrants spending money on a NOS tube, seriously!
> 
> I now run JJ's in V2 and V3, and I am trying a CBS 12BZ7 in V1, which sounds suprisingly good in that position.



Did you try this with the one wire in the FX loop? This is supposed to put V2A in the preamp. This is discussed here:

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/32195-hey-marty-tube-question-ya.html


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Ok, help me ID this tube please.
> 
> Marked 12ax7 on the side, up near the top. This 12ax7 is a little slimmer than the cp are. Has gray plates with three ribs. On the right side of each plate is two rectangular slots, but on the left side there is only one rectangular slot. The getter looks to be square shaped, with a flat piece of metal closing the far end of the square.
> 
> Any ideas?



Lots of ideas. That's just not enough info to narrow it down much. It could be 1950's US production or Japanese. No identifying marks or anything on it?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, just like GE tried to extend the tube era with Compactrons, other manufacturers tried to make the tube really small. Remember, some tubes got real small for avionics in the military. Those tubes, if you remember, had wire leads coming out of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BPB Surplus sells these for like $5 each. These were used in aircraft to make the end item smaller, such as radar and radio. However, there was no holding back the almighty transistor. It took over everything. Yuck!



I remember there being a 12AX7 equivalent with flying leads. I can't remember the number offhand, but it'd be cool for DIY overdrive pedals.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Yeah...that's the way I feel, and I don't even know the technical end...something apart from the function, quality, and all that is I love some of the logos on the tubes.....like the atom on that mini RR posted in the pic above.....But, I would love to help sort thru all that stuff.....



I'll need some help, definitely. Can't do anything tonight - I'm off to the football game. Maybe I can camp out in front of the TV tomorrow and watch some college games while I sort.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy has one version of a twin triode.

6112 Vacuum Tube Subminiature Dual Triode NOS JAN | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's this guys page. Some really neat stuff.

Adam's Amplifiers: Subminiature


----------



## solarburn

I just noticed the tone zone and the cellar are missing...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

They've been moved to "Music Gear."


----------



## solarburn

Thanx Marty.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> They've been moved to "Music Gear."



I don't see that anywhere...is I be'n blind?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Go to "Forum Jump" and look under Music Gear. It's there. I promise.


----------



## solarburn

Oh yeah. There it is.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

Sorry in advance, this will be a long post.

So the first local tube quest ended tonight. I feel like King Arthur or something. If you remember I started a few weeks back with the antique shop, to the TV repair guy (Todd), to the ham radio place and them finally to the electronics graveyard the dude at the ham place sent me tonight. I met the owner, Bob (I am leaving the name of the shop out of this for selfish reasons!), 76 year old guy. One of the nicest people I have ever met. One of those people that just exudes trust, respect and wisdom. I talked with him for easily an hour. So I ask, "I'm an amp guy, and I hear you have tubes?" To which he says "I could tell, what is it your after, 12ax... EL-34, 6L6?” I said "all of the above". Bob says "your a bit late today, they are usually gone by 11:30 or so." To which I say "’they’, how many tubes to you sell on average". Bob says, "Oh, I think I have sold close to 40 or 50 thousand this year". Holy crap! Bob tells me I need to get on his “list” and to email him a summary of what I am after. Then he will call me when he gets a batch, usually on Wednesdays. Then he says, “This is all I have left of what you are looking for” and pulls out 4 tubes. I see a couple are Hammond pulls. I say, OK, how much? Bob says $14.00. I know what your thinking, $14 each, then Bob says “$3.75 each, thats how we do it here.”

So I came home with one each Mullard, Amprex, Sylvania and GE that all test really strong for $14.00. 

As I’m leaving he says, “You are welcome to look in back if you want, I have two sheds back there but one is closed. Someone stole a gear puller form me and I got pissed and locked it up. Don’t mind the sign” I go back and there is anything you could think of, VU’s, decibel meters, oscilloscopes you name it. And sure enough on the door of the second shack is a sign that says “Someone stole a red gear puller form me, and until the asshole that took it brings it back, I’m keeping it locked up. Trust is hard to come by, and some say I have too much.”


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Sorry in advance, this will be a long post.
> 
> So the first local tube quest ended tonight. I feel like King Arthur or something. If you remember I started a few weeks back with the antique shop, to the TV repair guy (Todd), to the ham radio place and them finally to the electronics graveyard the dude at the ham place sent me tonight. I met the owner, Bob (I am leaving the name of the shop out of this for selfish reasons!), 76 year old guy. One of the nicest people I have ever met. One of those people that just exudes trust, respect and wisdom. I talked with him for easily an hour. So I ask, "I'm an amp guy, and I hear you have tubes?" To which he says "I could tell, what is it your after, 12ax... EL-34, 6L6?” I said "all of the above". Bob says "your a bit late today, they are usually gone by 11:30 or so." To which I say "’they’, how many tubes to you sell on average". Bob says, "Oh, I think I have sold close to 40 or 50 thousand this year". Holy crap! Bob tells me I need to get on his “list” and to email him a summary of what I am after. Then he will call me when he gets a batch, usually on Wednesdays. Then he says, “This is all I have left of what you are looking for” and pulls out 4 tubes. I see a couple are Hammond pulls. I say, OK, how much? Bob says $14.00. I know what your thinking, $14 each, then Bob says “$3.75 each, thats how we do it here.”
> 
> So I came home with one each Mullard, Amprex, Sylvania and GE that all test really strong for $14.00.
> 
> As I’m leaving he says, “You are welcome to look in back if you want, I have two sheds back there but one is closed. Someone stole a gear puller form me and I got pissed and locked it up. Don’t mind the sign” I go back and there is anything you could think of, VU’s, decibel meters, oscilloscopes you name it. And sure enough on the door of the second shack is a sign that says “Someone stole a red gear puller form me, and until the asshole that took it brings it back, I’m keeping it locked up. Trust is hard to come by, and some say I have too much.”



Awesome! Wish I was there with you. Xciting as fuck! I'm sit'n here thinking how many great tubes you're going to stumble into.LOL!


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Lots of ideas. That's just not enough info to narrow it down much. It could be 1950's US production or Japanese. No identifying marks or anything on it?



Forgot to mention it has a "0" on the bottom.
























[/IMG]


----------



## sccloser

I am currently communicating with a retired CET who told me he has hundreds of tubes new in the box and lots of test equipment he would like to sell! Hope I have enough mula...


----------



## RiverRatt

If any of you guys run across a variac in any of these places, I wouldn't mind picking one up cheap. The shop where I got the tubes had a isolation transformer with adjustable voltage and all, but it looked like it had a rough life.


----------



## sccloser

What is cheap, Alan?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Forgot to mention it has a "0" on the bottom.



You got me. I'm thinking USA, like Sylvania or Tung-Sol, but it doesn't look quite like anything I've seen before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy the server is really acting up tonight. Anyone else having slow uploads?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I paid over $300 for my refurbished Variac, but it has a built in AC/DC regulated power supply. It's in a large rectangular steel box. It ain't one of those Chinese coffee cans.


----------



## sccloser

How about it Marty, can you ID that tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another server double post.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TUBE ID? Not a clue. I've never seen one with the plates like that. I don't know what the advantage of that would be?


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Awesome! Wish I was there with you. Xciting as fuck! I'm sit'n here thinking how many great tubes you're going to stumble into.LOL!



Thanks Joe!

I will keep ya posted Brother!!!


----------



## sccloser

It is a special Eric Clapton Woman sound tube.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> TUBE ID? Not a clue. I've never seen one with the plates like that. I don't know what the advantage of that would be?



Yea, thats a weird one

Maybe increased surface area on the anode????


----------



## sccloser

No, no...wait, it is a Slash tone tube! yeah, that's it! I wonder what that would fetch on ebay!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> If any of you guys run across a variac in any of these places, I wouldn't mind picking one up cheap. The shop where I got the tubes had a isolation transformer with adjustable voltage and all, but it looked like it had a rough life.



I will look next time I'm at Bobs place. I am sure there was one there Alan, I was pretty overwhelmed by all the stuff. 

When I told him about the cost of tubes testers on Ebay he said he sold them for $50 to $100. I am sure he would be in the same pall park for a variac.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> No, no...wait, it is a Slash tone tube! yeah, that's it! I wonder what that would fetch on ebay!



Sell it in a "Slash tone pack" with a top hat SC and you're in business!


----------



## sccloser

So, have I stumped the tube experts?


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> So, have I stumped the tube experts?



I'm sure they are Googling away SC!

I sure have never see one before.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TUBE ID-I will say that I think that tube was made in the mid-70's. I've pretty much seen all the designs of the 50's and 60's. This looks like something they would try in the 70's.

Maybe an odd ball Japanese tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is very little info online in regard to vacuum tubes. As I said, you can't even find out when tube companies shut their doors.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is very little info online in regard to vacuum tubes. As I said, you can't even find out when tube companies shut their doors.



Just fun'n with ya Marty!


----------



## sccloser

TUBE ID:

It feels like it is of good quality. The bottle is smaller like the NOS from 60's and 70's, feels like the glass is thinner than the cp tubes, more like the NOS tubes. Looks like the guts are better than cp quality. The only markings on the entire tube is the 12ax7 near the top and the '0' on the bottom. 

I really believe this is one of my NOS tubes that I stuck in my 800 and forgot about until I pulled it out the other day. If I can ID the empty box it may have come out of, maybe I can figure it out. This could be one of those tubes from the 70's that came packaged in an RCA or GE box but was made in Japan or somewhere else.

I had a GE ECC85 NOS that had a telefunken ecc85 in it with no attempt to diguise it.


----------



## solarburn

This is very interesting though. I wonder what it is and how does it sound?


----------



## sccloser

Well I had it in v2 on my 2205 thinking it was a Raytheon blackplate. This is because, I kinda pieced together, I took this tube out of an amp and put my Raytheon in, and then put this tube back in the Raytheon box. This tube probably would have been in v1 of my 2205, because that is where I put the Raytheon (I thought it sounded good there). So later, I forget about this, and robbing my 2205 of the Ray bp in v1, I pull out this ray box and put this tube in the v2, with a ttele in v1 and then later with a 60's RCA labeled Mullard in v1. It sounded very good. I mean, I thought it was a ray bp!


----------



## sccloser

TUBE ID:

Marty, after recounting that last story, I am beginning to believe that this tube was packaged as an RCA in the Red box (late 60's/70's). If you recall, I have expressed in this thread that I had some RCA's that I thought sounded good in my 2205's, both past and current. I am about 75% sure that it was packaged as an RCA.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RCA was still selling tubes after they quit making tubes. They bought heavily from GE, Mullard, Matsushita and Bharat Electronics, Ltd. (BEL). RCA applied shipping date codes to their relabeled tubes. These codes were followed by a dot(s). The dot(s) was their designation that the tube was actually purchased from another manufacturer and then sold new by them. You'll see those following dots inconsistently from the '50s to the '70s, on (some) RCA branded tubes they bought from Mullard, Matsushita, Ei, GE, etc.

Matsushita was completely done by the summer of 1979. I believe that RCA was still selling other manufacturers tube as late as 1984. Those RCA/Made In Gt. Britain/Ei tubes were probably early 80's tubes. I think only Sylvania and one factory of Ken-Rad (former GE) were making tubes that late.


----------



## sccloser

Marty,

I am reasonably sure that some of the RCA labeled tubes made in GB were purchased new by my father no later than about 1976. He retired in 76, and since he discontinued working on radios, stereos, etc. about 1974, I am not sure why he would have bought 12ax7s after that time. If he had purchased those tubes as late as 1980, he would have used them in something, not purchased them for stock, since he was no longer in the business.

Now the one 12ax7a RCA labelled mullard could very well be 1980's as I purchased that in a music store so I have no idea how long it was in stock there.


----------



## sccloser

TUBE ID:

Also, there is no seems showing on this tube. I have a Matsushita (6LN6) that I was comparing it to and noticed that it had seems on the top. No seems on the tube in question.
e
ALSO: the pics make the plates look like they follow the curvature of the glass, but they do not. They are flat. Photography is tough.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> So, have I stumped the tube experts?




Are the plates rounded like they look in the picture, or is that just some effect of the glass and the angle? It looks like they might be a little wavy like a Sylvania. The 12AX7 stamp looks kinda like Sylvania, too. And, they did use a D (or foil) getter, for awhile. Sometimes the foil burned through when they flashed the tube.


----------



## sccloser

No, the plates do not curve. That is just an illusion.


----------



## sccloser

a pic of the plates for the side.



[/IMG]


----------



## thrawn86

Howsit, late crew? Popping in. Enjoying a Throwback PepsiMark (Maker's Mark) waiting for my bro to roll into town @ 2 am local time. Hope all is well in the Kingdom of NOS Tone.

Marty, I did have trouble about an hour and a half ago with the server.......it was with the MLP as well. Neither site wanted to load.


----------



## sccloser

TUBE ID:

I think it is a Sylvania. The lettering of the 12AX7 looks like other sylvanias, I saw pics on the net of Sylvanias with D getters...looked exact match, and I found this pic of sylvanias which have the same weird plates.




[/IMG]

Note the 3rd and 4th tubes have teh plates with one slot on the left side and one slot on the right.

I think this solves the mystery...


----------



## sccloser

thrawn86 said:


> Howsit, late crew? Popping in. Enjoying a Throwback PepsiMark (Maker's Mark) waiting for my bro to roll into town @ 2 am local time. Hope all is well in the Kingdom of NOS Tone.
> 
> Marty, I did have trouble about an hour and a half ago with the server.......it was with the MLP as well. Neither site wanted to load.



Solving another tube mystery....getting ready to pop by the malt shop in the mystery machine...


----------



## thrawn86

lols. I'm the bad kid around here. Haven't been paying attention in class enough to know much, except that something along the lines of 'xf2' means the Blackburn code=Mullards. In the real world, I'd be taking double notes.

Found an old TV/stereo combo cabinet the other day at a repo job. Popped the back off, hoping to find something cool............nothing but transistors. Bummer.


----------



## sccloser

I'm learning as well. About to call it a night. Had an unlabeled D getter 12ax7 with strange plates that we have been trying to ID all night. Think it is a Sylvania. Sounded good in v2 of my 2205. Pretty sure it came in an RCA labeled box, but I could be wrong.

I think I outlasted Marty, Alan and Scott tonight.


----------



## thrawn86

Heck, if it sounds good, play it!


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you try this with the one wire in the FX loop? This is supposed to put V2A in the preamp. This is discussed here:
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/32195-hey-marty-tube-question-ya.html



Ayup, my FX-loop has been patched for ages...(since I saw Jestaa commenting on it). I read that thread you linked when it came up, and i know there has been previous discussions about the tube layout of the 900DR.

Still minor change in sound does occur, but as mentioned, it is SO minor that I'm not wasting my vintage tubes on V2.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I'm learning as well. About to call it a night. Had an unlabeled D getter 12ax7 with strange plates that we have been trying to ID all night. Think it is a Sylvania. Sounded good in v2 of my 2205. Pretty sure it came in an RCA labeled box, but I could be wrong.
> 
> I think I outlasted Marty, Alan and Scott tonight.



Like, solving mysteries takes a lot out of you, man. Plus I was out of Scooby Snacks. So, did I call it right or what?


----------



## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> Found an old TV/stereo combo cabinet the other day at a repo job. Popped the back off, hoping to find something cool............nothing but transistors. Bummer.



I've been hearing that there's a growing market for TV modules. Apparently the IC's are getting to be collectible. I've never hung on to any of them, but I'm going to start.


----------



## thrawn86

Really? Why do they want them/what's collectible about them?


----------



## RiverRatt

Something to do with amateur robotics.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I'm learning as well. About to call it a night. Had an unlabeled D getter 12ax7 with strange plates that we have been trying to ID all night. Think it is a Sylvania. Sounded good in v2 of my 2205. Pretty sure it came in an RCA labeled box, but I could be wrong.
> 
> I think I outlasted Marty, Alan and Scott tonight.



Yep, passed out on the couch about 10:00 Vic!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys,

I was testing tubes last night and the meter on B&K started deflecting the wrong way (to the left). Any ideas before I tear in to it???

Oh, also noticed a light blue arch in the EL-34 I had on it when the test button was depressed.


----------



## 61rocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I was testing tubes last night and the meter on B&K started deflecting the wrong way (to the left). Any ideas before I tear in to it???
> 
> Oh, also noticed a light blue arch in the EL-34 I had on it when the test button was depressed.


 
I have a 1953 Vintage Tester ..Precision Apparatus...anyway it tests very close to a tech friend of mine's console tester at his shop....but....anyway....when my needle does that....I tap on the side of the tester case....as the needle seems to need the equivelent of WD-40...lol..or the tubes bad....just sayin' if your testers old....it might just be the needle sticking....as I started using mine more, the needle doesn't "stick" like that or go to the wrong side....also, you might need to clean the socket, or replace it....the pre amp tube socket on mine wasn't working when I went to buy it, but all the other sockets did...I was going to pass, and the guy cleaned it and we waited, it's been working great since...those are some possible "cosmetic" things.....of couse I'm not a tech...just what I've experienced with mine doing the same thing....


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> I have a 1953 Vintage Tester ..Precision Apparatus...anyway it tests very close to a tech friend of mine's console tester at his shop....but....anyway....when my needle does that....I tap on the side of the tester case....as the needle seems to need the equivelent of WD-40...lol..or the tubes bad....just sayin' if your testers old....it might just be the needle sticking....as I started using mine more, the needle doesn't "stick" like that or go to the wrong side....also, you might need to clean the socket, or replace it....the pre amp tube socket on mine wasn't working when I went to buy it, but all the other sockets did...I was going to pass, and the guy cleaned it and we waited, it's been working great since...those are some possible "cosmetic" things.....of couse I'm not a tech...just what I've experienced with mine doing the same thing....



Thanks man,

I tried giving a it a bump on the side with no change. It also does the same thing regardless of what socket I am using, and I have socket savers in the pre-amp and power tube sockets. I will tear into it tonight with the meter to see what I can find.


----------



## 61rocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks man,
> 
> I tried giving a it a bump on the side with no change. It also does the same thing regardless of what socket I am using, and I have socket savers in the pre-amp and power tube sockets. I will tear into it tonight with the meter to see what I can find.


Good luck Mann.....I know I'm an idiot when it comes to these things, but ya neva kno....


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> Good luck Mann.....I know I'm an idiot when it comes to these things, but ya neva kno....



No way man! You are no more an idiot than me!

Thanks for the help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was on the phone with Joe until 2:45 AM my time (CST).


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Found an old TV/stereo combo cabinet the other day at a repo job. Popped the back off, hoping to find something cool............nothing but transistors. Bummer.



Hard to believe, but I was just on this topic about organs the other day. If it was made prior to 1965, it probably is tube. All the manufacturers were anxious to launch their new transistor based products and 1965-66 was when the onslaught occurred.

The sad thing was, the SS audio amps sounded like ass. Imagine selling McIntosh and then in 1966 trying to convince your customer that the SS amp sounded better than the "old" tube model. Holy crap.

One of the churches I do sound in had an organ so old that it had 6SN7's in it. So it was like an early 50's organ. I ended up getting a big box of good 6SN7's that were all major brands. Of course, I would rather have 12AX7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Good luck Mann.....I know I'm an idiot when it comes to these things, but ya neva kno....



Check the 6BN8. Sometimes mine comes a little unseated as the spring clip that holds it in place isn't straight.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hard to believe, but I was just on this topic about organs the other day. If it was made prior to 1965, it probably is tube. All the manufacturers were anxious to launch their new transistor based products and 1965-66 was when the onslaught occurred.
> 
> The sad thing was, the SS audio amps sounded like ass. Imagine selling McIntosh and then in 1966 trying to convince your customer that the SS amp sounded better than the "old" tube model. Holy crap.
> 
> One of the churches I do sound in had an organ so old that it had 6SN7's in it. So it was like an early 50's organ. I ended up getting a big box of good 6SN7's that were all major brands. Of course, I would rather have 12AX7's.


 "And there's no warm up time"......

I was in a thrift shop and came across a Lowry organ.... it looked right...as I was trying to find a way to look at the amp in it....I found I could openup the top near the keyboards....it was solid state....but organs are the one thing I see in those places....I'll make a hit sometime....


----------



## RiverRatt

This Saturday's tube search: I went in to this little music shop/TV and CB repair shop. The guy usually closes early on Saturday but he was there today at around 2:30. I got started talking to him about tubes and he said he really didn't have any to sell. Then he said he did have a box of used tubes that he might be able to sell a few of. I dug through the box and finally settled on a Silvertone-labeled Made in Holland 12AX7, a pair of RCA black plate 6L6GC's and a pair of Sylvania long bottle 6L6GC's. He had a few others, mostly GE and newer Sylvania 6L6GC's. I may have to make another trip but it's about an hour from the house and there's really no other reason to go in that direction. 

Total price for 2 pairs of 6L6GC's and an Amperex 12AX7? 

$20.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! You spent money on the big stash and now you are still spending. That car deal really gave you a cash egg.

Did you tell your wife?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! You spent money on the big stash and now you are still spending. That car deal really gave you a cash egg.
> 
> Did you tell your wife?



Yeah, she knew all about it. She actually sat out in the truck and listened to the Tennessee football game while I was in there talking with dude. She knows what happens if I'm around another tube nut. I couldn't believe it when he said $20. I almost asked "Each?" but thought better of it and pulled out a $20 and handed it to him. I gave him my contact info too and told him to give me a call if he turned up anything else.

Yah, the car deal was a godsend. We pocketed over $3K on that little accident. Got caught up on all our bills and still had $1k left over. The only sacrifice is that I have to drive a 15-year-old car with hail damage. I can live with that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you think they are going to raise your rates, because of that accident? My sister had to take their daughter off of their policy, because she liked to hit stuff so much. She stiffened up a bit when she realized it was going to cost her about 3 grand a year for insurance.

I'm rated A+++ and have been for years. I insure through AARP Hartford and it is cheap for me. I'm 56 and never had a reportable accident.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I think we're pretty solid on the rates. She did get 3 points against her driver's license. 3 more and it gets pulled. She isn't allowed to take her MP3 player with her anymore.

I just aired out the new Amperex in the Vintage Modern. Well worth $20 on its own. I haven't tested the 6L6GC's yet. When will this obsession end??? Lately I seem to be like some sort of tube detector. I've really lucked into a bunch of good stuff this year. Hell, I might even catch up to Matt sooner or later


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you think they are going to raise your rates, because of that accident? My sister had to take their daughter off of their policy, because she liked to hit stuff so much. She stiffened up a bit when she realized it was going to cost her about 3 grand a year for insurance.
> 
> I'm rated A+++ and have been for years. I insure through AARP Hartford and it is cheap for me. I'm 56 and never had a reportable accident.



Key word here being reportable, right?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Check the 6BN8. Sometimes mine comes a little unseated as the spring clip that holds it in place isn't straight.



Check. Not it though.

Did some digging and I think one of the caps are bad. They are all original, so it might be time for a tune up.


----------



## RiverRatt

Definitely. That's the first thing to do before you try to calibrate it. I used a couple of Illinois 22uf/450v caps for C4 and C5, and a Radio Shack 200uf/100v for the meter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I bet that tester hasn't been used except to plug it in and say, "It works." Now that you have started using it long term, those caps are swelling. You need to get all of those caps replaced. That's why I went with someone who has done many of these B and K's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For the past few days, I have been doing some research on the transistor. If you go by the series of events, the tube was very short lived. The transistor was developed in the spring of 1947. In September 1947, the 12AX7 was introduced. At this point, all the main R and D money went to transistors. In 1953 RCA introduced to the public the first transistorized television using transistors. 1953. If you worked in the tube divisions of the various major manufacturers, you were just counting your days. So 1952 was like the golden era of tubes. Transistors became highly diversified and by the early 60's, they were already used in most portable radios. These radios were made available only because of the transistors space saving size. The power transistor was deemed reliable by the mid 60's and that took care of the rest of the implementation.

So the bottom line is this. 1965 may have been the beginning of SS HiFi, but in reality, the consumer market had been taken over probably by 1953. It makes me wonder how tubes were in demand in 1970? There must have been a huge replacement market with the existing tube products out in the field. I guess if you bought a TV in 1950, you would still have it in 1960.

And I now find it humorous that a company like GE would spend all the money they did on Compactron tubes in 1960. It would not have mattered if they could have made a tube with eight sections in it. Eight SS diodes and transistors would take up a lot less space, less power and hardly any heat. 

The tube R and D resources was pretty much dried up and they came out with subminiatures and nuvistors. The transistor guys were like, "Oh...okay." You might as well have been throwing mud balls at a brick wall.

I think that 1935 was a magical year for tubes. Just think, in 1935, the majority of tube theory was already understood and being used. 12 years later, it was old hat. The only thing that kept tubes in production was that the transistor was unreliable in the early years. (This was due mainly to the case and not the technology. A better case was developed and the moisture problem was solved.)

I have never seen a 1947 12AX7, but they say they were really good. The oldest 12AX7 I have come across is a 1950.

Some food for thought.


----------



## sccloser

Televisions used to be furniture. People would pick them out by brand somewhat and by the cabinet that they preferred. It was possible to keep using a good television for 20 or 30 years. And I remember some of the early SS tv's that came out had some reliability issues. 
My parents purchased a new tv with a nice cabinet about 1966. It was a Magnavox. My dad kept repairing it because my mother liked the cabinet in the living room. About 1984 my dad had to to put a booster on the picture tube to get a few more years out of it. It finally died from a lightening strike during Hurricane Hugo in late 1989. Otherwise, my dad already had a replacement pt for it to install as soon as the old one went out. It was 23 and still in good shape until the lightening strike. We had a couple of smaller, solid state tv's in other rooms during that time that did not fair as well. 

My dad was regularly buying tubes to fix tv's until he retired about 1976, and he still did a little work now and then on tube tv's until the early 90's. He preferred to work on those tv's...easier to check and replace components.


----------



## sccloser

I won 3 EI 12ax7 tubes out of a 1994 jcm 900 for $9.99. Guy said he bought the amp new, used them for less than a year and then put in all GT's. Been in a box in closet ever since. About $4 each with shipping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got that right. Old TV's were a fashion statement. You could get a TV in about six or more veneer finishes. I got an old Zenith TV set for my bedroom that just needed a few tubes replaced. It was a beautiful honey colored oak finish. 

The same with HiFi consoles. If you had one, you were considered well off. It was amazing how big they were and the small amount of electronics inside. Some consoles were sold to match the wood on the TV and some consoles contained the TV. Now those were heavy to move around. I bought a top of the line GE TV in 1981. It was the traditional 25-inch screen with stereo sound. It was huge and was a piece of furniture. That TV was still rolling in 1994. I decided to go with newer technology and that meant a dark gray/black plastic case on a 25-inch screen. I think around 1988 the furniture look on a TV was a thing of the past.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, my mother still has one of those "Entertainment Centers." HUGE cab, had teh tv in the middle with the little shutters on the front that you can close and hide the PT. Had a turntable on one side, and radio on the other. Cool thing is the tv audio was in stereo if I remember correctly.

Yeah, my dad would tell my mother which brands were better, and let her pick the cab. I seem to remember Zenith and Magnavox being some of the better brands back then.


----------



## sccloser

Marty, I can remember seeing in a lot of people's homes back in the late 70's and early 80's where they would buy a smaller, newer tv and sit in on top of the old tv with the nice cab when the old one would break and it cost too much to fix (usually pic tube went out). They would not take the big tv out because the cabinets looked too nice and they needed something to sit the little tv on top of anyway! Those tv's were part of the decor! 
Most kids envied my family because we had two or three tv's in the house, all color, in the 70's. My dad had his own shop, so he would get trade ins and fix them up and bring home. I remember a few times he brought customers home look at the tv(s) in my room and would sell them. I actually thought that was cool because I new I was about to get an upgrade! I went from small b&w to big b&w to small color to bigger color to color with remote...My dad was a good tv provider!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hard to believe, but I was just on this topic about organs the other day. If it was made prior to 1965, it probably is tube. All the manufacturers were anxious to launch their new transistor based products and 1965-66 was when the onslaught occurred.
> 
> The sad thing was, the SS audio amps sounded like ass. Imagine selling McIntosh and then in 1966 trying to convince your customer that the SS amp sounded better than the "old" tube model. Holy crap.
> 
> One of the churches I do sound in had an organ so old that it had 6SN7's in it. So it was like an early 50's organ. I ended up getting a big box of good 6SN7's that were all major brands. Of course, I would rather have 12AX7's.



Sometimes transistors make me sad, but then I remember all the positive stuff (you know, like the computer I'm typing on) and it makes it okay. I'm glad my laptop isn't taking up my entire dorm.

Some day I'd like to build an amp that uses 6SN7's and otherwise all octal tubes, or something like that. In general I'd like to make a bunch of amps that use odd tubes so that I can get great (and unique!) tones cheap. That'd be cool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Curtis Mathes (spelling?) was a top of the line, so was Packard-Bell.

WHERE TO FIND GUITAR TUBES. TRY THESE ON FOR SIZE.

Curtis Mathes lead sleds.











All tube, 1960 model with optional top chest and tape deck.






Massive. Just massive!






Now that is damn prudy.






Home - The Official Vintage Curtis Mathes site by Glenn Waters


----------



## MartyStrat54

Slow night. I'm pushing TV sets and consoles.


----------



## MM54

Plus in old TV's there are a lot of other useful components 

(PSA: Please don't gut the old TV's and throw away all those yummy caps and resistors and transformers and shit... it makes me sad)


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Slow night. I'm pushing TV sets and consoles.


Just got home from a gig, this made me think of the Dire Straits song - 
"we gotta move these refrigerators... gotta move these color TVs..."


----------



## brp

Are the Baldwin organ 12AX7 made by Sylvania good and as guitar amp preamp tubes?

I may be able to get some pretty cheap. Owner claims they tested at 82/82 and 81/81.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those would be good tubes. I like Sylvania's. Some people use them for V1 tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Some day I'd like to build an amp that uses 6SN7's and otherwise all octal tubes, or something like that. In general I'd like to make a bunch of amps that use odd tubes so that I can get great (and unique!) tones cheap. That'd be cool.



Yeah I was tossing this idea around several weeks ago in some other thread. I said I would like to have a 2203/04 preamp using two, 6SL7's for four gain stages (total of 280mU of gain). This would only be 80mU more than a regular 2203/04, but the tone from the 6SL7's would be different. That 6SL7 is a sweet sounding tube and low in microphonics. Plus they are cheaper than a 12AX7. I would go with a 12AX7 for the TS/CF and the PI.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody here win that sweet trio of D getter Matsushitas on eBay?


----------



## sccloser

I don't think it was me. I bid on a couple of things but I bid low and leave it.

@Marty: My dad always said that the Curtis Mathis tv's were overrated. They were not better than Magnavox or Zenith but cost much more. They advertised heavily. There was something else about them but I do not recall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you go to the Curtis Mathes link, somewhere it states that they advertised and made 500 million profit. They also sold franchises. By 1985 they had over 650 of them. However, the market changed and the consumer started buying cheap overseas TV's from Japan and other places. Before C-M shut down, they were "relabeling" TV sets. Sticking Zenith TV chassis's in C-M enclosures.


----------



## sccloser

So basically they sell you a Zenith tv for more money but the give you a 4 year warranty. Maybe that was the catch, you were paying extra for the warranty.

I seem to also recall that you did not have to know much about tv's to open a CM franchise. I think the local CM had my did fix a few of their tvs.


----------



## sccloser

Hey guys, you know I am a night owl, but I think staying up late typing on the computer is making it harder for me to sleep at night. I may have to cool it for a while and see if that helps. May take some time off of here at night and see what happens.


----------



## Fixr1984

I just got some new tung-sol 12ax7s. I ordered high gain. They are marked 110/110 and 115/115. Without knowing the tester used can you tell me if they tested high gain?


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those would be good tubes. I like Sylvania's. Some people use them for V1 tubes.



Cool. What would you guys consider a great price for 5 of them? (Not unused but testing as I mentioned...)


----------



## RiverRatt

Hard to say with them being used and all. If they aren't guaranteed, I'd pay around $5 per tube. Even if they are, I still wouldn't go much higher than that. An 80% Sylvania is a tube that's seen some heavy use.


----------



## brp

Oh, that's good to know. Thank you kindly, RR 

They are guaranteed although I'd have to pay return shipping and the price is going to be more than $5 each with shipping so I guess I'll pass.


----------



## 61rocker

Going to test drive my JCM 800 2210 tonite with some guys.....My preamp tubes for tonite are
V1: Mazda short plate gold pins
V2: RCA Black Plate to smooth it out
V3: Mullard long plate
V4: Pinnacle Branded vintage but unknown make or year (I think Jap. has a K on it )
V5: CMI branded Mullard (seems identical to the other one)

Going with the RFT el34s I won last week....sounds great alone....first try with a band


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> Going to test drive my JCM 800 2210 tonite with some guys.....My preamp tubes for tonite are
> V1: Mazda short plate gold pins
> V2: RCA Black Plate to smooth it out
> V3: Mullard long plate
> V4: Pinnacle Branded vintage but unknown make or year (I think Jap. has a K on it )
> v4: CMI branded Mullard (seems identical to the other one)
> 
> Going with the RFT el34s I won last week....sounds great alone....first try with a band



Do you talk tubes with your band mates? Do they give you "the look" when you do? Do they think you are crazy and/or obsessed?  If so, welcome to my world! 

I am slowly binging them around, however.


----------



## sccloser

I used to go into practice and say, "Yeah, tonight I'm running the blah blah in v1, and blah blah in v2. I put the blah blah's in and biased them up to blah blah. We'll see how that combo works out tonight.

No matter what I did, they always said it sounded good to them. I'd say something like, "Did you notice this or that, how my tone was this or that" and they would just stare blankly and say it sounded good to them OR (my fave) it sounds like a marshall!


----------



## sccloser

But as soon as something doesn't sound right with their tube equip, they call you up and say, "Hey, you know all about tubes, right?"


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah...I have gotten some interest from my friend in Little Rock....he's got EH 6550s in his JMP 2203, and EH pre's....I'm trying to get him to try some vintage preamps, the power tubes don't sound bad at all....He put reissue all Mullards in his 4103 combo...it's powerful but when I did a "Marshall taste test" over there one day, they were really harsh.....I would like him to try something in the V1 and V2 of that combo....to warm it up...I tested one of the RI Mullards, it was stronger than anything else we tested, but I didn't like the harshness of it....I can see warming it up with a BlackPlate and some other vintage tubes in there, with the Mullard Power Tubes, it'd probably be awesome...anyway It kind of turned me off on the RI Mullards for now, maybe I'll try one later....my nephew is really getting into the concept....he has a Rivera Chubster that we're going to roll some tubes in .....I think he has GTs or JJs in it right now....


----------



## sccloser

What turned me off on the ri mullards is the thread on here where I guy broke one down and compared it to an old, real mullard from the 60's (the real mullard broke...accidentally).

ri did not compare to well component wise.

I think the cp tung sols are your best bet for the newer stuff, or maybe some shugs.


----------



## MM54

sccloser said:


> What turned me off on the ri mullards is the thread on here where I guy broke one down and compared it to an old, real mullard from the 60's (the real mullard broke...accidentally).
> 
> ri did not compare to well component wise.
> 
> I think the cp tung sols are your best bet for the newer stuff, or maybe some shugs.



 That was me


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> What turned me off on the ri mullards is the thread on here where I guy broke one down and compared it to an old, real mullard from the 60's (the real mullard broke...accidentally).
> 
> ri did not compare to well component wise.
> 
> I think the cp tung sols are your best bet for the newer stuff, or maybe some shugs.


 I was going to get some Mullards till I read that thread.....new tubes to me is... beside the really bad ones...it's a toss up....that's why I've gone vintage, but I'll probably buy some and try em out tho.....


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> That was me



That was a great thread! Really enjoyed it.


----------



## sccloser

I could not get over how the micas looked like a kid cut them out with scissors! I was cleaning and checking a friends peavey classic 30 today, and it had the original Sovteks in it, and the micas looked just like that. They did not test very strong, but they did test good. He does not want to spend money to re-tube but I think I would at least get some shugs for it. I am not real fan of the sovtek 12ax7 tubes.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Fixr1984 said:


> I just got some new tung-sol 12ax7s. I ordered high gain. They are marked 110/110 and 115/115. Without knowing the tester used can you tell me if they tested high gain?



Hey Fixr

On this score, 100 is standard. So at 110 and 115 (matched triodes to boot) they would indeed be "high gain".


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> He does not want to spend money to re-tube but I think I would at least get some shugs for it. I am not real fan of the sovtek 12ax7 tubes.



I've said quite a few times that I'll take Chinese tubes over any CP Russian/Czech glass. Now if they get Ei back up and running, or start making real Teslas again, all bets are off! Ei still has the teaser page up that they've had for going on a year. Before that it was a different page entirely - mainly stating that the company and assets were for sale. I am so hoping that Svetlana bought them and is going to start production again. 

Ei Elites - Highest Quality Vacuum Tube Design


----------



## blues_n_cues

ok Marty - stick it where???

been running my ts (v1)& svets.

now i got my mullard.


what do you suggest?

mullard 12ax7/ecc 83 (v1?)
ts 12ax7 (vs?)
svet 12ax7 (v3)

running ruby el34's on a middle bias

i like to go british/plexi cleaner

think these songs-
judas priest- green manalishi
kentucky headhunters-walk softly on this heart of mine
ozzy-s.a.t.o.
(the '79 mxr dist+ makes that sound(output on 9 oclock & dist on max)

i'm playing a 50's gold top w/ p90's
another les paul w/ classic 57's

the rest of the rig is in the sig but the cab is 400wts w/ very clean altec 417c's & 400 wts.... i could use this for p.a..

i get all my gain,sustain,& dist. from pups,boxes, & volume- aka Randy Rhoads.


----------



## blues_n_cues

p.s.- the mullard in v1? yeah?


----------



## 61rocker

MM54 said:


> That was me


+1 on that great thread...It deserves a sticky....how does that happen?....I think the RI Mullards are better than some RIs out there, but you showed whats up with Reflektor.....The Vintage tubes are the way to go for me....I probably won't go back except maybe to record a certain tone....


----------



## 61rocker

The preamp tube lineup for tonite sounded great....to me night and day between vintage Mullards and the RI Mullards.....not a bad band either.....I may take the Super Lead next practice...


----------



## MM54

Thanks for the praise on the comparison, guys


----------



## RiverRatt

Do you guys play downtown any? I've got to take my daughter and friends to see something called "Bring Me The Horizon" (?!?) at the New Daisy. I'd really like to duck in somewhere good for a couple of hours.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Alan....me?....this was the first meeting with these guys....I think we'll give a go, but we'll see....drummer is pro all the way...singer and guitarist very very good...played a LP Studio thru a Haze...sounded really good...blended with me well...had a sit in bass player for tonite the original guy is supposed to be at the next practice....how's the tube biz going?


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Hey Alan....me?....this was the first meeting with these guys....I think we'll give a go, but we'll see....drummer is pro all the way...singer and guitarist very very good...played a LP Studio thru a Haze...sounded really good...blended with me well...had a sit in bass player for tonite the original guy is supposed to be at the next practice....how's the tube biz going?



Slow, man. Real slow. You have no idea what having this many tubes is like. It's a lot like the old Star Trek tribbles episode if you remember back as far as I do. 

If anyone has a use for 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes, please ask. I know my Ampeg uses one as a reverb driver, but I've got enough of these to last several hundred years.


----------



## MM54

What are the specs on a 6FQ7?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a 6 volt .6A twin triode with an amplification factor of 20 per side. If you can come up with a use for them, I'll gladly hook you up.


----------



## Lowlife

MM54 said:


> That was me



Yeah, that was awesomeness...

Didn't Groove tubes also make a reissue mullard a while back?


----------



## 61rocker

Lowlife said:


> Yeah, that was awesomeness...
> 
> Didn't Groove tubes also make a reissue mullard a while back?


I have a Grove Tube 12AX7 RM......I think that is supposed to be a reissue Mullard.....someone else might know...but it's diff that my other GT12AX7...has a longer plate in it....sounds alright....


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> It's a 6 volt .6A twin triode with an amplification factor of 20 per side. If you can come up with a use for them, I'll gladly hook you up.
> 
> [data]



I'll keep them in mind next time I scheme for something to build 



Lowlife said:


> Yeah, that was awesomeness...
> 
> Didn't Groove tubes also make a reissue mullard a while back?



I have no idea 

I'm sure someone here does though


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I have a Grove Tube 12AX7 RM......I think that is supposed to be a reissue Mullard.....someone else might know...but it's diff that my other GT12AX7...has a longer plate in it....sounds alright....



I think that GT12AX7M was the Chinese version. The GT12AX7RM was their Russian Mullard, same as the one Sovtek sells. The Chinese tube was supposed to sound great IF you got a good one. IIRC the failure rate was so high on those that they were dropped from the catalog.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I think that GT12AX7M was the Chinese version. The GT12AX7RM was their Russian Mullard, same as the one Sovtek sells. The Chinese tube was supposed to sound great IF you got a good one. IIRC the failure rate was so high on those that they were dropped from the catalog.


I dug mine out....one is a GT12AX7R (no M) which I think would be a Svetlana...or maybe it's a Sovtek....the other is a GT12AX7M (no R) also has ecc83 and 7025 printed on it...I take it to be The Mullard ReIssue?....it has a longer plate than the "R"..(The R has the signature Svetlana getter)...the "M" looks to be better constructed and has a halo getter, but who knows....I think I prefer the M to the R when I have rolled them...The M tests out at 81/81 and the R at 79/79 on my tester


----------



## ken361

I have a couple of the groove tube mullards relabeled from penta, dougs sells them. There not too bad, they look just like old stock mullards


----------



## 61rocker

ken361 said:


> I have a couple of the groove tube mullards relabeled from penta, dougs sells them. There not too bad, they look just like old stock mullards


 Yeah, the "M" one looks like an old Mullard....


----------



## RiverRatt

Myles Rose really ripped the 12AX7M after he left Groove Tubes. They were so low in gain that they started marketing them as 5751M's. This would have worked, except the plate current on the 12AX7M rejects/5751M's was as much as 3 times above the 12AX7 spec! Here are a couple of quotes from the man himself:

The 5751M is born: Aspen Pittman is a master of marketing. He was described by Richie Fliegler (please excuse spelling as it is probably wrong) as a mix of P.T. Barnum and Billy Graham the Evangelist. When the gain was found to be so low on the 12AX7M that it was something of a tragic selling point GT's founder and President decided to market the rejects as a lower gain tube, a new product. 

Aspen was always coming out with new products. The SAG (special applications group) products of high gain kits, soft touch kits and matched phase inverters were all items I had been offering my clients at Guitar Amplifier Blueprinting for years. Aspen felt these products could be marketed by GT and sold by GT. That is what happened. People like Rick Benson (now at 65 Amps) can attest to how many thousands of dollars of these products were sold every week at GT. Did I receive anything for development of this product or from the sales of the product? No. But I digress. To use a crude old phrase, Aspen "polished a turd". He took the 12AX7M gain rejects and sold them as the 5751M. To repeat myself; the 12AX7M was also a low gain tube, generally somewhere between the gain of a 12AT7 and 12AY7 at best.

Then there's this line. It's signature-worthy and says a lot about Myles' opinion of Groove Tubes:

Testing the GT version against an NOS version would be like testing BBQ chicken against a Penn fishing reel.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Myles Rose really ripped the 12AX7M after he left Groove Tubes. They were so low in gain that they started marketing them as 5751M's. This would have worked, except the plate current on the 12AX7M rejects/5751M's was as much as 3 times above the 12AX7 spec! Here are a couple of quotes from the man himself:
> 
> The 5751M is born: Aspen Pittman is a master of marketing. He was described by Richie Fliegler (please excuse spelling as it is probably wrong) as a mix of P.T. Barnum and Billy Graham the Evangelist. When the gain was found to be so low on the 12AX7M that it was something of a tragic selling point GT's founder and President decided to market the rejects as a lower gain tube, a new product.
> 
> Aspen was always coming out with new products. The SAG (special applications group) products of high gain kits, soft touch kits and matched phase inverters were all items I had been offering my clients at Guitar Amplifier Blueprinting for years. Aspen felt these products could be marketed by GT and sold by GT. That is what happened. People like Rick Benson (now at 65 Amps) can attest to how many thousands of dollars of these products were sold every week at GT. Did I receive anything for development of this product or from the sales of the product? No. But I digress. To use a crude old phrase, Aspen "polished a turd". He took the 12AX7M gain rejects and sold them as the 5751M. To repeat myself; the 12AX7M was also a low gain tube, generally somewhere between the gain of a 12AT7 and 12AY7 at best.
> 
> Then there's this line. It's signature-worthy and says a lot about Myles' opinion of Groove Tubes:
> 
> Testing the GT version against an NOS version would be like testing BBQ chicken against a Penn fishing reel.


 Does that include the 7025 that I have? just another reason why I have gone to vintage and NOS....


----------



## sccloser

GT offered very well matched power tubes. Some of the closest matches I have are GT.


----------



## 61rocker

In all fairness, I have a set of '93 GT branded Svetlanas EL34s that sound great.....


----------



## RiverRatt

I love the GTEL34M. It's my hands-down favorite CP EL34. The preamp tubes in general are I believe a little behind the power tubes in reliability and tone. If I had to pick between NOS preamp tubes or NOS power tubes, I'd go with preamp. There are several CP power tubes that I'd be perfectly happy using. My Vintage Modern has Genalex Gold Lion reissue KT66's and it sounds really good.


----------



## 61rocker

At the risk of being on the wrong thread, I've wanted to check out the Genalex Gold Lions but they are sky high on price...are they really worth it? They make preamp tubes also....I may have to try one of those....


----------



## RiverRatt

Buy a high-gain $12 Chinese 12AX7 and you've got a Gold Lion. Seriously.

The Genalex were in the 2266 when I got it. Cody gave me the old Russian/Marshall KT66's but I haven't swapped them out to see how they sound. If it ain't broke....


----------



## 61rocker

one more reason to go vintage on preamps.....tho some Chinese do sound good...I have a tech friend that really likes Chinese tubes....but..I thought Genalex was a New Sensor made in the Reflektor Plant...never reserched it....


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I wasn't very clear on that. I mean that tone-wise, the Gold Lion sounds extremely similar to a Shugang 12AX7 and not that they are the same tube. The Gold Lion is around $45. If you shop around you could get at least a couple of nice old 12AX7's easily for that kind of money.

The Shugang KT66 is said to be a Genalex copy, but they are all a copy of something, aren't they? I'm seriously tempted to buy a pair of the Shugang Treasures KT66's. Anybody want to buy an EH Micro Synth bass pedal?

This is kind of tying in with something I've been thinking about lately. We do an awful lot of power tube discussing in here as well as preamp tubes. Would it not make more sense to just consider this THE tube thread and take care of all tube-related stuff in one place? I mean, the power tube thread has been gasping for breath for a really long time. Anyway, I personally don't mind power tube discussions in here. What do you guys think?


----------



## 61rocker

+1 on the Tube thread....tho I do find preamps more interesting....I have a pair of PM Componants Shuguang EL34s I picked up a month ago....they are huge compared to even my vintage Teslas, but not as fat as "Big Bottles"....they sound really powerful and kind of tight, but they are not broken in yet....I don't know why I only bought two...I got them at Sam Ash in Nashville for $36...I'm going to let my nephew try them out in his Rivera Chubster, that would be a better trial as I was using them with 2 vintage Teslas....but they test at 81%, which to me is very strong for a CP tube these days....I wonder what they are a replica of, and is that the EL34B?


----------



## sccloser

End the segregation of the tube threads? Alright by me.


----------



## rjtm

Would I get 50W tubes or 100W tubes for my jubilee 2555?


----------



## 61rocker

Hmmmm.....trick question?.....I'm not a tech, but if your amp has four tubes...get four....if it has two tubes....get two.....brands and current production vs. vintage and NOS are matters of opinion.....but if there are 50w tubes and 100w tubes, I've never been aware of that....fellas??....but they need to match closely if your talkin' power tubes....


----------



## sccloser

Maximum Plate dissipation for a el34 is 25W. I think max p.d. for a 6550 is 40W.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Maximum Plate dissipation for a el34 is 25W. I think max p.d. for a 6550 is 40W.


 The guy with the post above mine is asking what tubes for his Jubilee....50watt or 100watt....Wouldn't he just buy EL34s or if it had in it 6550s?..never seen a difference for 50watt amps and 100watt amps....


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, there is no difference in the tubes. el34 or 6550, if it is 100w head it uses 4 if it is 50w head use 2.


----------



## sccloser

Where is everybody? Y'all know I can't stay up late tonight! I feel like the guy everyone hides from when they see him coming...


----------



## MM54

I'm here, just have nothing to contribute at the time


----------



## sccloser

Well, at least I have one tube buddy I can depend on!


----------



## sccloser

I am supposed to meet with a guy Monday to look through his stash of NOS tubes. He also has test equipment. Mentioned having a Hitchcock tube tester...Any info on that one? signal traces, and a lot of tv test equip.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hickok. Do some research on the different models. Some are much more desirable than others. In general they are very accurate and reliable testers when calibrated. You need to get a 6L6GC that was tested on a known good tester (you can find these on eBay) and compare the readings to it and calibrate as necessary. Although they are good testers, they are probably one of the more complicated ones. Especially when testing twin triodes like the 12AX7. If it's not in good working condition, be prepared to spend AT LEAST $175 to have it calibrated, and that's if it doesn't need parts.

BTW, I have been lurking around. I made it through one Hefty bag of 6-volt octal tubes. They were the used ones. I found a shitload of 6SN7's and 6BQ6's. They aren't super-rare or expensive, but in mass quantities I might could do alright selling the lot of them on eBay. I also found some old Raytheon JAN 5A6 tubes and some 6BL7's. The only really useful thing I found was four 6V6GT's. Probably my least favorite power tube. It took 3 hours to go through the entire bag, and that was discarding about 3/4 of the tubes. I have six more bags to go. I may stop long enough to test the better ones in this lot and sell them on eBay before I start on bag #2. 

If there are any tubes outside the typical audio tubes that anyone is interested in, please post here and I'll keep them out for you. I feel like Rainman. "6SN7. 6S - 6SN7. L7. 6SL7. 6T10. 6T10. 6SN7. 6HE7. HE. HE7. 6AY3. 6K6. 6K6GT. 12L6. Not 6L6. 12L6. Definitely 12L6. BwaHaHaHaHaHa........


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I am supposed to meet with a guy Monday to look through his stash of NOS tubes. He also has test equipment. Mentioned having a Hitchcock tube tester...Any info on that one? signal traces, and a lot of tv test equip.


 A lot of the sellers on ebay have one type of Hickok or another....I have wondered about them myself...I have a 1953 Precision Apparatus Tester...comparing it with a tech I know with a console tester...which I wish I could remember the brand....it's very close...has that line adjust dial....and has the original 5Y3 rectifier tube in it......may not be the best out there, but really has come in handy.....there was an ad on CL here that a guy was selling a stash of old tubes...but he told me the audio ones were all gone...so I passed.....but I'd like to run across someone clearing house.....


----------



## RiverRatt

The PACO testers, especially the 10- series were good testers. I have a 10-54 in non-working condition. I've been waiting for a swap meet to come up around here and thought I'd see if I could unload it for parts. One of the rheostats is shot.


----------



## brp

A noob question if you'll all allow (haven't the time to read whole thread but I'm picking away at it, I swear):

CP JJ's vs. CP Sovteks. (specifically 12ax7's but generally as well)
Is there a consensus on which is the better sounding or is it a subjective, personal taste thing for the most part? 
Also is one decidedly a better quality construction/technically speaking etc.


----------



## sccloser

IMO JJ's are better than sovteks. There is supposed to be a Sovtek 12ax7W (or something like that)m that is decent, but for the most part I do not think they are good tone tubes, and not particularly strong either. JJ's are much better tone wise and are better made, but they do tend to sound a bit darker. I would use a CP tung sol for v1 and maybe v2, and jj's for the rest.

The sovteks I see look like a kindergartener cut the micas out with scissors. JJ's look much better made to me. I would take a good Chinese Shug over a Sovtek, and save a few bucks. The Shugs are pretty good sound wise.


----------



## sccloser

Hmm. Just looked at some online prices. Seems Shugs are going for the same as Sovtek 12ax7s now...$12. I'd buy the Shugs. But the jj's are like $10, so that seems to be a good deal. Sino's are < $10...anybody know how they compare?


----------



## solarburn

Brp they put Sovtec preamp tubes in amps so the amp makes it through shipping and gets to you in working order. Those preamp tubes can take a beating and keep working. They are not used in an amp for "tone". They are just a durable tube. Anything is an upgrade in tone to my ears over those Sovtec preamp tubes. The only exception for me is their LPS 12AX7. It makes a great PI tube. If you like cardboard tone and stiff/sterile feel to your tone than enjoy the shizz out of them.

JJ ECC83S's are a darker high gain preamp tube and IMO can dull an amp if too many are used in your preamp section or tone slots. Like in a DSL I'd only use one either in V1 or V2 which are the tone slots or use them in a utility slot in V3/PI where it won't matter tone wise nearly as much. 

I have had all JJ ECC83S's in my DSL and felt it was dull and lifeless. Not so when I used just one though. RFT 12AX7's are a darker tube and generally sound great in Marshall's but I wouldn't use more than one in a tone slot either. I find when I know the character of a tube and know how my preamp circuit likes it I can utilize certain tubes to get better tone and feel.

Now as far as longevity of CP tubes these days...I'm reading more and more where guys are complaining of bad preamp tubes and its not just one particular brand. JJ's get hit with bad batches as well as Tung Sol or EH...mullard RI's and Shuguangs although the Chinese batches now seem to be better or having more surviving in their batches. I read where alot of the high gain guys use these now in their amps and say they sound good and are lasting. Other than anecdotal threads about these tubes I don't have any stats on how many are bad. I also will see from time to time tube sellers like Doug's tubes say they have had to throw alot of a certain tube out cause the batches have been bad. These are sellers that burn in tubes for their customers.

Myles Rose says current production(CP)tubes are a crap shoot as far as getting a durable tube. Looks like it can be a problem for any that are made these days...


----------



## 61rocker

I recommend trying some vintage and NOS tubes....make sure they test at least 80/80 and go at rolling....Not only do I believe they are better and last longer, but it's cool to roll them and see what tones each tube will produce....find a source and try a few...I have several CP preamps fail on me....sure I can get a refund or replacement, but it's time spent doing that.....just sayin' give it a try....


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> BTW, I have been lurking around. I made it through one Hefty bag of 6-volt octal tubes. They were the used ones. I found a shitload of 6SN7's and 6BQ6's. They aren't super-rare or expensive, but in mass quantities I might could do alright selling the lot of them on eBay. I also found some old Raytheon JAN 5A6 tubes and some 6BL7's. The only really useful thing I found was four 6V6GT's. Probably my least favorite power tube. It took 3 hours to go through the entire bag, and that was discarding about 3/4 of the tubes. I have six more bags to go. I may stop long enough to test the better ones in this lot and sell them on eBay before I start on bag #2.
> 
> If there are any tubes outside the typical audio tubes that anyone is interested in, please post here and I'll keep them out for you. I feel like Rainman. "6SN7. 6S - 6SN7. L7. 6SL7. 6T10. 6T10. 6SN7. 6HE7. HE. HE7. 6AY3. 6K6. 6K6GT. 12L6. Not 6L6. 12L6. Definitely 12L6. BwaHaHaHaHaHa........




Nice I'll definitely hit you up for the next radio I'm working on 

And by 'discarding' I hope you mean 'putting in a box for storage' and not actually discarding tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Nice I'll definitely hit you up for the next radio I'm working on
> 
> And by 'discarding' I hope you mean 'putting in a box for storage' and not actually discarding tubes



By discarding, I mean the tubes that are going back into a storage container and that I probably won't keep. I need to go to Lowe's and get one or two of those huge Rubbermaid containers. I'll probably sell off all the ones I don't need in a few huge lots just to get them out of the house and get my wife off my back


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> By discarding, I mean the tubes that are going back into a storage container and that I probably won't keep. I need to go to Lowe's and get one or two of those huge Rubbermaid containers. I'll probably sell off all the ones I don't need in a few huge lots just to get them out of the house and get my wife off my back



I hope I'm in the area when you do 

Remind me to schedule some reason for a road trip southward sometime soon


----------



## RiverRatt

You really want the dregs? I'm willing to ship. I could find a box that would hold several hundred of them. They start at 1 volt tubes and go up to around 43 volts. There are several nuvistors mixed in along with some old stylus cartridges.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Vic

Got the tubes today, thanks!!!


----------



## 61rocker

I got a UK Mazda 12AX7 today....it's testing stong..82/82..can't wait to roll it...it's a little different than my other Mazda...this one is only a 2 mica and a slightly longer plate....well made....who made the UK Mazdas? It has BVA on it and 3C12162 and the letter C around the other side by itself.....I saw an EL84 Marconi Branded that had the BVA....so I was wondering if another company made the UK Mazdas or was BVA a Mazda facility that made tubes for other brands....To me in V1, these tubes are very dynamic and responsive to my playing....enhance that Marshall "ring" on open chords...and reproduce the intended sound of what guitar I play thru my rig....I back them up with an RCA BP in V2...seems to be a good combination....then some old Mullards.....


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Vic
> 
> Got the tubes today, thanks!!!



Glad they arrived safely.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I got a UK Mazda 12AX7 today....it's testing stong..82/82..can't wait to roll it...it's a little different than my other Mazda...this one is only a 2 mica and a slightly longer plate....well made....who made the UK Mazdas? It has BVA on it and 3C12162 and the letter C around the other side by itself.....I saw an EL84 Marconi Branded that had the BVA....so I was wondering if another company made the UK Mazdas or was BVA a Mazda facility that made tubes for other brands....To me in V1, these tubes are very dynamic and responsive to my playing....enhance that Marshall "ring" on open chords...and reproduce the intended sound of what guitar I play thru my rig....I back them up with an RCA BP in V2...seems to be a good combination....then some old Mullards.....



BVA just stands for British Valve Association. The code is a Brimar code but I don't know offhand what it means. 2162 is the 12AX7/ECC83 type code IIRC but I'm not sure what the 3C1 means.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just got back from the football game and had a hell of a time getting across the river. Kansas (the band, not the football team) was playing a downtown concert and they had the whole town blocked off. I was hoping there would be some action here. I think there's only been 3 or 4 of us on here the last few days.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah been a little slow around here.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Yeah been a little slow around here.



Hey guys, sorry to be such a stranger. It's been crazy busy here.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> You really want the dregs? I'm willing to ship. I could find a box that would hold several hundred of them. They start at 1 volt tubes and go up to around 43 volts. There are several nuvistors mixed in along with some old stylus cartridges.



Wow :eek2: Definitely man, I collect tubes in a way that isn't like serious tube collectors - I like to just have as many varieties as possibilities, and duplicates just let me have some in stock in case I ever need them to fix something.

Let me know how much you want and I'll get back to you


----------



## RiverRatt

I didn't even get to see a good football game. The home team won 63-8. It could have been a lot worse than that but in the second half we were putting everybody but the cheerleaders in the game. Memphis North Side, no offense to anyone who may be from/affiliated with the school, is the worst football team I think I've ever seen. Their punter was on their 20-yard line, kicked the ball straight up in the air, it bounced and rolled to their 10-yard line and the punter was standing there watching it roll. One of our guys picked it up and walked it in. They scored their 8 points against our 4th string. We could have easily had another 7 but our guys took a knee instead. I wanted to see 70 on the scoreboard!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Wow :eek2: Definitely man, I collect tubes in a way that isn't like serious tube collectors - I like to just have as many varieties as possibilities, and duplicates just let me have some in stock in case I ever need them to fix something.
> 
> Let me know how much you want and I'll get back to you



Yeah Matt, you can have first shot at them. If nothing else, I can put together a selection of oddballs for you. I'll bet I've got 30 or 40 6SN7's that I'm going to sell as one lot. Some are used, some are NOS. I'll test them all before I sell them. Same goes for the 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes. I found a handful of EL86 tubes. Apparently they aren't that far removed from the EL84's and can be subbed in some amps.


----------



## brp

Great replies, guys! Thanks.
I'll explain my situation, trying not to go too TL;DR.

I have an amp with Sovteks (Vox NT; 2x 12ax7 pre, 2 x EL84 power) and 1 with J.J.'s (Blackheart BH1h; 1 12AX7 pre, 1 12AX7 power) both fairly new, very few hours.

Marty put together a great NOS preamp package for me for both amps. However, being new to this tube rolling biz, I wasn't aware how much of an investment it can be. And Joe/Solar strongly recommended I change the stock Sovtek Power Tubes in the NT first and foremost, and pointed me towards what he has found works best for that amp in his experience.

So, gotta get the NOS power tubes, leaving me feeling like I can't really justify new NOS preamp tubes for both amps too at this time. Altogether it's a pretty significant investment (more than one of the amps cost!)

So my thinking is:
- buy the NOS RFT power tubes for the NT that Joe recommended. 
- Put the JJ's from the Blackheart in the NT's preamp.
- Buy the NOS tubes for the Blackheart from Marty that he recommends.
- Upgrade the NT's preamp to NOS at a later time (being that they'll already be getting an upgrade from the Sovtek to the JJ's).

This will be $100 less and technically upgrade every tube slot in both amps if the JJ's are going to sound better in the NT than the Sovteks do.

These amps are mostly for recording and jamming/practice at home.

So any thoughts? Does this sound....er....sound?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah Matt, you can have first shot at them. If nothing else, I can put together a selection of oddballs for you. I'll bet I've got 30 or 40 6SN7's that I'm going to sell as one lot. Some are used, some are NOS. I'll test them all before I sell them. Same goes for the 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes. I found a handful of EL86 tubes. Apparently they aren't that far removed from the EL84's and can be subbed in some amps.



I like the weird ones that aren't that common but not necessarily rare (rare means expensive haha) so whatever you think would be a suitable crate I'm cool with


----------



## RiverRatt

BRP, I've got a good selection of preamp tubes right now. After you get your Joe and Marty stuff sorted out and paid for, let me know what you're looking for in a preamp tube and I'll try to help you out. Just IMHO, I don't think the JJ is an upgrade for the Blackheart. I had a BH5H for a year or so and the best-sounding 12AX7 CP tube I used in it was a Tung-Sol RI.


----------



## brp

Thanks, Man.

No, the JJ's are what came stock in the BH1h. I'm going to get NOS RCA and Sylvania from Marty for it instead.
The JJ's would go in the NT instead of the stock Sovteks.

I could get NOS RFT at the same time from Marty for the NT but it's getting a bit out of my budget at that point, for now anyway....




RiverRatt said:


> I had a BH5H for a year or so and the best-sounding 12AX7 CP tube I used in it was a Tung-Sol RI.



That's good to know though. Hmm..... might have to check those out in it sometime...


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I like the weird ones that aren't that common but not necessarily rare (rare means expensive haha) so whatever you think would be a suitable crate I'm cool with



I just found a B&K labeled 6BN8, and a pair of Sylvania JHS 1U4. Almost every tube I've looked at has been what would qualify as weird in my book.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I just found a B&K labeled 6BN8, and a pair of Sylvania JHS 1U4. Almost every tube I've looked at has been what would qualify as weird in my book.



Fantastic  Let me know


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Thanks, Man.
> 
> No, the JJ's are what came stock in the BH1h. I'm going to get NOS RCA and Sylvania from Marty for it instead.
> The JJ's would go in the NT instead of the stock Sovteks.
> 
> I could get NOS RFT at the same time from Marty for the NT but it's getting a bit out of my budget at that point, for now anyway....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's good to know though. Hmm..... might have to check those out in it sometime...



Sorry.... I'm a little distracted and missed what you were saying. But yeah, the Tung-Sol RI's aren't bad in a Blackheart. I was running a JJ EL84 and Tung-Sol 12AX7s and the best I can describe the tone was the guitar solo in the Beatles' Nowhere Man. It absolutely NAILED that tone.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Alan or MM,

Any idea what is located between pins 2 and 5 on socket 8 on the B&K (and on a few other sockets) ? It looks like a cap, but I can make out any markings and I dont see it on the parts list?


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Alan or MM,
> 
> Any idea what is located between pins 2 and 5 on socket 8 on the B&K (and on a few other sockets) ? It looks like a cap, but I can make out any markings and I dont see it on the parts list?



I don't have my tester nor my service manual with me here, sorry man


----------



## RiverRatt

The 707 schematic shows pins 2 and 7 connected. Pins 4 and 5 are the heaters and there isn't anything connected to them other than that. It doesn't show anything on the schematic except for a black rectangle. Since pins 2 and 7 are the grids, they are probably tied together and the part you're seeing might be either insulation or a ferrite shield.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> The 707 schematic shows pins 2 and 7 connected. Pins 4 and 5 are the heaters and there isn't anything connected to them other than that. It doesn't show anything on the schematic except for a black rectangle. Since pins 2 and 7 or the grids, they are probably tied together and the part you're seeing might be either insulation or a ferrite shield.



Good point, there are a lot of those weird black shields on little lengths of wire, that may be what he's seeing. I just assumed there was a component there with the markings worn off.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Great replies, guys! Thanks.
> I'll explain my situation, trying not to go too TL;DR.
> 
> I have an amp with Sovteks (Vox NT; 2x 12ax7 pre, 2 x EL84 power) and 1 with J.J.'s (Blackheart BH1h; 1 12AX7 pre, 1 12AX7 power) both fairly new, very few hours.
> 
> Marty put together a great NOS preamp package for me for both amps. However, being new to this tube rolling biz, I wasn't aware how much of an investment it can be. And Joe/Solar strongly recommended I change the stock Sovtek Power Tubes in the NT first and foremost, and pointed me towards what he has found works best for that amp in his experience.
> 
> So, gotta get the NOS power tubes, leaving me feeling like I can't really justify new NOS preamp tubes for both amps too at this time. Altogether it's a pretty significant investment (more than one of the amps cost!)
> 
> So my thinking is:
> - buy the NOS RFT power tubes for the NT that Joe recommended.
> - Put the JJ's from the Blackheart in the NT's preamp.
> - Buy the NOS tubes for the Blackheart from Marty that he recommends.
> - Upgrade the NT's preamp to NOS at a later time (being that they'll already be getting an upgrade from the Sovtek to the JJ's).
> 
> This will be $100 less and technically upgrade every tube slot in both amps if the JJ's are going to sound better in the NT than the Sovteks do.
> 
> These amps are mostly for recording and jamming/practice at home.
> 
> So any thoughts? Does this sound....er....sound?



Like I said before I'd usually tell a guy to replace the preamp tubes first but those RFT EL84's are a no lose buy for the NT. I will probably end up grabbing another pair. They have been great in both my EL84 amps. The NT warms up nicely with them. If it takes a bit of time to afford the rest just wait. It will be worth it in the end. What Sovtec is in the PI? Is it an LPS?


----------



## RiverRatt

I missed a GE tube caddy by minutes today. My uncle, who is a big-time record collector, looks out for me when he's out hitting the junk/antique stores and I call him if I find a record collection he might be interested in. He found the caddy and said it had at least 10 12AX7's in it plus several other audio tubes. While he was trying to call me to see if I wanted him to pick it up, a guy walked up to the store owner and offered him $100 for the caddy and tubes and walked out with it. Just goes to prove that the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass every day.

BTW, if anybody is looking for any rare vinyl, odds are he has it. He's pretty cheap, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I missed a GE tube caddy by minutes today. My uncle, who is a big-time record collector, looks out for me when he's out hitting the junk/antique stores and I call him if I find a record collection he might be interested in. He found the caddy and said it had at least 10 12AX7's in it plus several other audio tubes. While he was trying to call me to see if I wanted him to pick it up, a guy walked up to the store owner and offered him $100 for the caddy and tubes and walked out with it. Just goes to prove that the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass every day.
> 
> BTW, if anybody is looking for any rare vinyl, odds are he has it. He's pretty cheap, too.



I got xcited for you then totally deflated.

So close man.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't complain. I've been doing really well lately. I've had that Amperex in V1 on the Vintage Modern pretty much since I got home with it last weekend. I'd love to stumble on to a pair of KT66's but I'm not holding my breath on that one. The guy I got the Amperex and the 6L6GC's from last weekend had a pair of Chinese KT66's that I almost bought just to have another spare set, but I decided I'd probably end up picking up some of those Shuguang Treasures sooner or later and I really don't need 4 pairs of KT66's.

I did by a synth today. My daughter has been wanting a keyboard (her drummer boyfriend offered her a spot in his band if she could play keyboard). She's been playing mallet percussion and piano since she was 12. I found an Alesis Micron synth for $150 at a pawn shop. I figured if she didn't like it, it'll make the perfect MIDI keyboard for my Mac recording setup. I don't play keyboard for shit, but I can do chords. Those old analog synth pads can really be nice in a track if used tastefully. Plus, I've got a Moog software synth package for Mac/PC that I've been dying to install and hook a midi keyboard up and see what it'll do.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> The 707 schematic shows pins 2 and 7 connected. Pins 4 and 5 are the heaters and there isn't anything connected to them other than that. It doesn't show anything on the schematic except for a black rectangle. Since pins 2 and 7 are the grids, they are probably tied together and the part you're seeing might be either insulation or a ferrite shield.



Exactly it Alan. I didn't consider a ferrite shield, I didn't think they used them that long ago. 

Thanks Alan!

And Matt too!!


----------



## solarburn

One of these days soon I'm gonna make it to a GC and try that amp. Been real busy lately but its gnawing away in the back of my mind to get it done. Hopefully soon. Be great to play a Marshall again.

My daughter has a keyboard she messes with. It teaches her how to play even along with the backing track. Shows what keys to hit while the song is playing. I enjoy watching/listening to her. She couldn't handle the guitar I bought her cause of the strings hurting her fingers. Neither of my daughters could get past that stage of playing.LOL

At least you can get some mileage out of yours if the daughter doesn't use it. Should be fun creating some sounds/effects with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> At least you can get some mileage out of yours if the daughter doesn't use it. Should be fun creating some sounds/effects with it.



I love synths. I had a friend with money when I was in high school in the 80's. He had the first Roland Juno synth I ever got to play with. There's just something about those old analog synth tones that I like. I bought The Rentals CD when it came out just to listen to "Friends of P" because it had those great Moog tones in it. I love that LFO choppy helicopter sound like from Tron. Sunday in the Park off Van Halen's Unchained is fun, too. I was just listening to that this week and thinking how cool that synth sounded.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I did by a synth today.... I found an Alesis Micron synth for $150 at a pawn shop. I figured if she didn't like it, it'll make the perfect MIDI keyboard for my Mac recording setup. I don't play keyboard for shit, but I can do chords. Those old analog synth pads can really be nice in a track if used tastefully. Plus, I've got a Moog software synth package for Mac/PC that I've been dying to install and hook a midi keyboard up and see what it'll do.



That's a pretty great deal for the Micron.
I should note that it's not an "analog" synth, but rather an analog modelling synth, entirely DSP based.

One other use you maybe haven't thought of for it (if your daughter doesn't get into using it or even if she does and you share it):
That synth has audio INPUTS so you can run your guitar through it's filters and even it's onboard effects. It also has vocoder capabilities, giving you a digital "talkbox" for guitar use. It also has an assignable expression pedal input, so I assume you could use it's effects/filters with that, giving you expression pedal control over it's filter frequency (i.e. digital wah pedal), delay & reverb time, wet/dry mix etc. Lots of dsp guitar effect potential there for $150!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I know it's a modeling synth, but it's pretty convincing. I'm almost hoping she doesn't like it so that I can take it over!


----------



## brp

Indeed.
I've been keeping an eye out for a deal on one myself. 
It's alot of power in a small desktop footprint. 
I don't need it but I kinda collect synths when I can, among other things.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I got a good deal on it because I was the only one who walked into the store and could get a sound out of it!

I had an old Roland Juno 6 back in the late 1980's that I so wish I'd kept. I also had a mini-Moog at one time that I traded for a classical guitar. 

If I could undo all the stupid trades and gear I sold off because I needed cash, I could probably retire by now.


----------



## brp

Ya, those old Rolands are fantastic. I'd love to get a 106 (practically a 6 but with midi and patch storage) but the price is too much and it's hard to know how much life one has left in it.
I have a JX-3P from the same era which sounds fantastic but doesn't have all the individual controllers of the 6/60/106, plus the MIDI died on it. I still lay live tracks with it though, well until I got a DSI Mo-pho recently which has kinda replaced the JX-3P for me. Nothing like real analog warmth.


----------



## RiverRatt

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Ya, those old Rolands are fantastic. I'd love to get a 106 (practically a 6 but with midi and patch storage) but the price is too much and it's hard to know how much life one has left in it.
> I have a JX-3P from the same era which sounds fantastic but doesn't have all the individual controllers of the 6/60/106, plus the MIDI died on it. I still lay live tracks with it though, well until I got a DSI Mo-pho recently which has kinda replaced the JX-3P for me. Nothing like real analog warmth.



I just now saw your link for your studio. Nice man cave. Looks like you can do some recording in there...and then some. Somebody likes Star Wars...


----------



## brp

Heheh, thanks. 
The cave has some new additions since those pics, more guitars and more PC's, and a tech station, gotta update the pics.

Ya. I'm in the toy business actually.


----------



## solarburn

The display case looks top notch. Very cool.

Man I wouldn't know what to do with all that equipment. Looks substantial and I'm sure fun to create with.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Heheh, thanks.
> The cave has some new additions since those pics, more guitars and more PC's, and a tech station, gotta update the pics.
> 
> Ya. I'm in the toy business actually.



That is a cool setup. I never noticed that before. You should draw more attention to that link in your sig - that's an awesome rig. What's the pointy headstock guitar back behind the Blackheart in the corner?


----------



## RiverRatt

My son just came and dragged me out of the music room by telling me that it's 2 o'clock and it was a little late to be rocking out. Can't help it - I got that Ibanez and now I'm obsessed with remembering all those 1980's tunes. I was trying to remember how to play "Still of the Night" before he busted me. There's a chunky but slinky feel to a Floyd Rose equipped guitar that you don't get from anything else.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> That is a cool setup. I never noticed that before. You should draw more attention to that link in your sig - that's an awesome rig. What's the pointy headstock guitar back behind the Blackheart in the corner?



Thanks.
1990 Ibanez 540r, (precursor/basis of the Joe Satriani "JS" sig. series.)
There's now also a Kramer I recently refurbed in here not shown in the pic album, speaking of chunky, slinky, Floyd Rose equipped guitars.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a friend who is into collecting all the various 5150 style guitars. He has Kramers, Gibsons, etc. I think he gave me GAS. This is the first FR double-locking guitar I've had since around 1990. I'm glad I picked it up. I may get tired of it after awhile, but I can get more out of it than I have in it if I need to. I'm also thinking of dropping $100 or so on it and getting it set up right. It's got the potential, but stock it isn't quite there.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Thanks.
> 1990 Ibanez 540r, (precursor/basis of the Joe Satriani "JS" sig. series.)
> There's now also a Kramer I recently refurbed in here not shown in the pic album, speaking of chunky, slinky, Floyd Rose equipped guitars.



That's a nice guitar. The first double-locking guitar I ever had was an Ibanez RG series. I thought I had a pic of it somewhere but I can't find it.


----------



## brp

I almost never play it these days, only because it was my only guitar for almost 20 yrs but it is an absolutely beautifully made and sounding guitar. 
All the time I've had it I gassed for an LP so now that I've been able to get a couple, they are what I reach for but the 540 of course has a few things the LP's can't offer.

I saw your thread about your Ibanez score, nice deal! It's fun ya?
A different vibe that makes you nostalgic for 80's for sure. I'd just tinker with it yourself rather than sink money into a setup.
I like the IBZ pickups personally, at least the ones in mine anyway.


----------



## solarburn

Have a good one guyz! I'll leave this behind for funz.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J9zyviTTmQ]Judas Priest (Unleashed in the East) - Victim of Changes (1979). - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> BVA just stands for British Valve Association. The code is a Brimar code but I don't know offhand what it means. 2162 is the 12AX7/ECC83 type code IIRC but I'm not sure what the 3C1 means.


Thx Alan....boy it was slow here last nite...I guess I can't hang late anymore....maybe that is a date code, there is another C on the other side by itself...I think the tube has all it's print...I'm bidding on another Mazda from the same seller...I really think if people would give one a try, they might throw out a bunch of other ones....great audio reproduction....we all have our favorites.....but I keep coming back to it for V1....


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> I saw your thread about your Ibanez score, nice deal! It's fun ya?
> A different vibe that makes you nostalgic for 80's for sure. I'd just tinker with it yourself rather than sink money into a setup.
> I like the IBZ pickups personally, at least the ones in mine anyway.



Yeah, that was just an impulse buy but it turned out great. The only real complaint I have about the setup is that the nut is just a little too high. It doesn't seem to affect the intonation but it's going to bug me until I get it right. I am liking the INF pickups so far. They sound way better distorted than clean. I've gotten several great deals on guitars off the Musician's Friend used search. They should fire the idiot who graded this guitar as a Level 4 (needs work, as-is, no returns). It needed an $11 trem arm. That's all. Even the strings feel new.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I missed a GE tube caddy by minutes today. My uncle, who is a big-time record collector, looks out for me when he's out hitting the junk/antique stores and I call him if I find a record collection he might be interested in. He found the caddy and said it had at least 10 12AX7's in it plus several other audio tubes. While he was trying to call me to see if I wanted him to pick it up, a guy walked up to the store owner and offered him $100 for the caddy and tubes and walked out with it. Just goes to prove that the sun don't shine on the same dog's ass every day.
> 
> BTW, if anybody is looking for any rare vinyl, odds are he has it. He's pretty cheap, too.



My wife has some family with over 10,000 records they are trying to sell. Seems they had a dj in the family from the 50's60'sand 70's and it was his collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Indeed.
> I've been keeping an eye out for a deal on one myself.
> It's alot of power in a small desktop footprint.
> I don't need it but I kinda collect synths when I can, among other things.



I just got finished setting up the Micron in my daughter's room. I used the bass amp that she never uses for it. For a little 37 key modeling synth, that thing sounds damned good! I told her she had a week to warm up to it, and if she wasn't using it after that I was taking it over


----------



## brp

heheh, a "count-down" good idea lol.


----------



## sccloser

Tumbleweed blows through....


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Tumbleweed blows through....


 Crickets chirp...someone farts in the distance....


----------



## thrawn86

<burrrrrrrrrrrrrp!>
Pauly finishes another Stout........


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry. I had to bail last night. I've picked up the flu or something. I feel like shit. The only rolling I'm doing is rolling my ass back into bed after I raid the medicine cabinet.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Get better Alan!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey, any one tried a RAM 12ax7 (yugo)? There are a couple for sale near by for $6.


----------



## RiverRatt

RAM was just a re-labeler, but if they are Yugo tubes they must be Ei. Are they smooth plates with seams on top? If so, hell yes! I'd pay $6 for them all day.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Thanks Alan, I'll send him an email.

What did they mainly rebrand? I've never hear of RAM's before.


----------



## RiverRatt

Whatever they could get their hands on. Most of those companies didn't use just one supplier. They could be Ei, Toshiba, GE, literally anything that was around at the time. There are a few exceptions. Most of the Fisher ECC83's I remember seeing have been Telefunkens, TRAM, Heath and Knight used Mullards almost exclusively.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check these out. I worked through another bag of tubes today and found these four UX171A tubes. They aren't worth a lot, but I think they are cool. The one on the right has the dated purchase sticker on it for warranty purposes. It was purchased on June 6, 1924.






I also found an enormous 5R4WGY Chatham JAN CAHG rectifier tube. It has a huge tan base. Maybe worth $10. I don't think I'm going to get rich off this haul.


----------



## BluesRocker

Those look like light bulbs Alan, lol.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Those look like light bulbs Alan, lol.



This is old school, son. They are the first I've ever had with that bottle shape. Like I said, 1924 for the tube on the right. I'll even bet you a buck that they still work.


----------



## BluesRocker

I wont doubt that they still work.. I have never seen anything like those before. But then again, all I have seen are the ones that go in guitar amps.


----------



## sccloser

Cool.

I supposed to check out some tubes tomorrow morning. Wish me luck.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Check these out. I worked through another bag of tubes today and found these four UX171A tubes. They aren't worth a lot, but I think they are cool. The one on the right has the dated purchase sticker on it for warranty purposes. It was purchased on June 6, 1924.
> 
> [tube-porn]
> 
> I also found an enormous 5R4WGY Chatham JAN CAHG rectifier tube. It has a huge tan base. Maybe worth $10. I don't think I'm going to get rich off this haul.



(Drool) Those are like the old DeForest triodes I have, I REALLY like the bulb shape and engraved bases


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Cool.
> 
> I supposed to check out some tubes tomorrow morning. Wish me luck.



Good luck 

All my lead have been coming up dry lately. Turns out that Phantom linear amp I picked up for my HAM friend had been struck by lightning. It had maybe a single bank of tubes that were still good, and some yahoo had put a 400-0-400 tranny in it instead of the 320-0-320 that it calls for.

I think I'm going to stay out of HAM speculation. It's just too iffy and I don't know enough about the gear. He's wanting to sell me some more gear but I don't know that I'm going to bite. I don't think the dude is trying to rip me off, but he's over 80 & isn't very coherent. He does still owes me three 6LQ6 tubes that I accidentally left when I picked up the Phantom.

Right now, I'm sitting here looking at a Beautiful example of a Sylvania 6L6GC. You can really see the coin getter well in it as it has absolutely NO getter flash in it at all. Another strike against the home team.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> (Drool) Those are like the old DeForest triodes I have, I REALLY like the bulb shape and engraved bases



They could be yours if THE PRICE IS RIGHT! 

Seriously, it you want 'em, PM me an offer. The one on the right (the 1924 one) is a Cunningham 6X326, the rest are UX171A's.


----------



## MM54

Maybe I'll take them in consideration with the oddball lot we discussed before. Realistically I have no clue what those (or my similar ones) are worth so I wouldn't know where to start


----------



## Marshall Mann

Gota love those plates! They look like mini cookie sheets or something! I actual saw some of these in an old radio that I looked at in a antique shop a few weeks back. They also had the warranty / service "call us to replace" labels on them too.

Cool stuff Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Maybe I'll take them in consideration with the oddball lot we discussed before. Realistically I have no clue what those (or my similar ones) are worth so I wouldn't know where to start




Wow! There's a quad of them on eBay at $130. I may have to trot these throught there and see what I can get. I really need to get my investment back out of these tubes if I'm ever going to show a profit. Gotta fund the next spending spree. 

I told you I'd give you first shot at them. If you want these,I can put them aside for you. Just let me know. I've gone through two hefty bags full of oddball tubes already and I've got tons more to go. I'm really amazed at all the little 7-pin twin triodes I'm finding. I really have no idea what I'm holding without opening the box and making sure. I kept telling my son when we were raiding the place that there was one thing missing - the junk tube bin! I think dude was just a little neater than I would have been and put the old tube in the new box and wrote the number on the top tab in ink that has pretty much disappeared over the last 20 years. Still, it's weird. Anybody who deals in a many tubes as this dude did should have a box of tubes under the bench.


----------



## MM54

I'm still really jealous about all those tubes, I'd die to find a deal like that 

I don't really think they're cool enough to warrant paying a high price on, so go ahead and sell them on e-bay, If you end up with one left or they can't sell or whatever, then we'll see. I do like tubes


----------



## Chondropython

RiverRatt said:


> The 401 should be pretty easy. The usual formula of a Philips or Telefunken in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2 and Sylvanias in V3 and V4 should do well in that amp.
> 
> If you don't want to go through the hassle of eBay, Marty can hook you up with some nice preamp tubes.



Is the Raytheon Black Plate a specific Raytheon tube? I can't seem to find a "black plate" on ebay when I do a search. Also, any particular Sylvania tubes I should look for? I'd been planning to get a set from Marty, but it appears as though he's been away from the computer for a while, and I have an upcoming gig that I want to have these installed before, so I might have to go via Ebay and buy them all separately. 

What about an Amprex Bugle Boy for V1? How does it compare to the Philips JAN? I can get either on eBay right now, but the Phillips are listed as "Philips JAN 12AX7WA"... what does the WA stand for?


----------



## sccloser

Ok. I met with the retired cet today. He did not have as many useful tubes that I had hoped. I scored 3 rca 12ax7 tubes (one black plate) and 2 sylvanias. I got 2 12at7's that each came i n a big fancy purple box...they were made in Great Britain. He had several different 6L6 tubes mostly sylvania and rca...they had different numbers like 6l6GB...I am not familiar with these but I could get them next trip. He had lots of equip.
I got an Eico 667 tube tester from him that is very clean. I basically paid him a gair price for the tester and he through in the tubes.
What do you guys know about the tester? 
Excuse the typos...on my phone.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, AFAIK all the USA-made Raytheons were black plates. The older the better, as long as they test high. 

I didn't necessarily mean to look for a Philips-branded tube. Philips controlled a huge number of tube factories. Amperex, Mullard, Valvo, Siemens und Halske, Ei, BEL, Matsushita, etc. and many others were Philips companies. The JAN Philips was a USA made tube and isn't the same as the companies I listed above. 

The Amperex Bugle Boy is a great tube. They are a little brighter than I like in some amps. I'm running an Amperex in my VM right now and it sounds great. I'd suggest picking up as many different 12AX7's as you can afford. There are budget tubes that will get you really close to the sound of the expensive ones. The Matsushita 45˚ getter tubes are Mullard-like (no, they aren't "Japanese Mullards" as you'll read on eBay). The D-getter Matsushita is one of my all-time favorites. BEL is another good Mullard-ish tube with a lot of low end and punch. Ei, especially the earlier production, sound a lot like a Telefunken but with a little more edge. Electrohome is a Canadian brand made by Philips that will get you close to Amperex tone. USA-made General Electric tubes can sound great in a Marshall, too.

Like I said, the best thing to do is try as many as you can afford to try and let your ears be the judge. They all have their own unique sound.


----------



## sccloser

Also, what are RAM 12ax7 tubes?


----------



## Chondropython

RiverRatt said:


> No, AFAIK all the USA-made Raytheons were black plates. The older the better, as long as they test high.
> 
> I didn't necessarily mean to look for a Philips-branded tube. Philips controlled a huge number of tube factories. Amperex, Mullard, Valvo, Siemens und Halske, Ei, BEL, Matsushita, etc. and many others were Philips companies. The JAN Philips was a USA made tube and isn't the same as the companies I listed above.
> 
> The Amperex Bugle Boy is a great tube. They are a little brighter than I like in some amps. I'm running an Amperex in my VM right now and it sounds great. I'd suggest picking up as many different 12AX7's as you can afford. There are budget tubes that will get you really close to the sound of the expensive ones. The Matsushita 45˚ getter tubes are Mullard-like (no, they aren't "Japanese Mullards" as you'll read on eBay). The D-getter Matsushita is one of my all-time favorites. BEL is another good Mullard-ish tube with a lot of low end and punch. Ei, especially the earlier production, sound a lot like a Telefunken but with a little more edge. Electrohome is a Canadian brand made by Philips that will get you close to Amperex tone. USA-made General Electric tubes can sound great in a Marshall, too.
> 
> Like I said, the best thing to do is try as many as you can afford to try and let your ears be the judge. They all have their own unique sound.



Thanks... would you mind looking at these eBay links? I think these are what I'm planning to get based on everyone's comments... I might try some different ones later, but need to just get a complete set first and then get others as I can scrape up the funds:

V1:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/370541993558?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

V2:
Vintage Raytheon 12AX7 ECC83 Stereo Tube #.ho/ | eBay

V3 & V4:
3 Sylvania JHS 12AX7 (ECC83) NOS | eBay

I really appreciate the help... first time buying tubes, and I'm kinds clueless...


----------



## RiverRatt

I just answered this post and it disappeared, so if I double-post it ain't my fault.

The Amperex is probably the best deal you listed. The last NOS Amperex I bought at retail was around $45 so you're not too far apart with that one.

That Raytheon is not the one you need. With the short (14mm) gray plates I'd bet it's a Japanese Toshiba even if it does say USA on it.

Lastly, there's no way I'd pay $80 for 3 Sylvanias, especially with the seller not accepting any returns.

I'm sending you a PM. Read it and tell me what you think.


----------



## MM54

I've never paid more than $25 for a tube off ebay, and I've got some good ones (ie $7 NOS Mullard or $9 ANOS Amperex Holland). You just have to know where to look and what to look for.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's me, too. The $45 Amperex was from a private dealer we all know... I'm not really pursuing any tube leads right now. I've got to get the house cleared out first. I think I've found a guy who'll take most if not all of my 6CG7/6FQ7's. He says they make excellent hi-fi audio preamp tubes. I think I have more of those than anything else in my collection except maybe 6SN7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello. I'm back. I thought I had left notice that I would be attending a week long music festival. I'm still in a daze. I slept from 6 PM last night until 2 PM today (Monday). I have 42 pm's and a shit load of emails to sort through. I will try to get back over here asap.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello. I'm back. I thought i had left notice that i would be attending a week long music festival. I'm still in a daze. I slept from 6 pm last night until 2 pm today (monday). I have 42 pm's and a shit load of emails to sort through. I will try to get back over here asap.



Hey Marty, Welcome back man. Those tubes made a HUGE difference in my tone mainly in the top end and it seems like the low Mids bite a little harder now. \m/


----------



## sccloser

OK, those 12AT7 tubes I got are in big purple boxes labeled IEC 10M Mater Series, Guaranteed 2 years. They are made in Great Britain and have a seem on top. Mullards, perhaps?


----------



## sccloser

Been playing with the new tester (Eico 667). Seems pretty cool. Funny, it seems that I could get about the same info from my little Accurate 157. Of course, I think the 157 is not as accurate (my best tubes were checking about 80% on it and over 100% on the Eico). 

How does that percentage reading on each triode equate to gain factor? The manual calls it an emissions test, but I am not sure exactly what that means..seems to me to equate to the gain factor.

One thing that the EICO does that the little 57 did not is that it actually shows the resistance reading during the leakage tests, whereas the 157 either shows a short or no short...you have no idea how will insulated it is.


----------



## sccloser

Here's the Eico 667.




[/IMG]


----------



## RiverRatt

You can't really get a gain reading on a tube using an emissions tester. You need a mutual conductance tester for that. An emissions tester basically just checks that a tube is capable of passing current.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> OK, those 12AT7 tubes I got are in big purple boxes labeled IEC 10M Mater Series, Guaranteed 2 years. They are made in Great Britain and have a seem on top. Mullards, perhaps?



Yeah, look for the Blackburn factory code etched into the glass near the bottom to be sure, but IEC relabeled Mullards all the time. I've got a few IEC/Mullard 12AX7's.


----------



## sccloser

The Eico is a Dynamic Conductance tester.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, look for the Blackburn factory code etched into the glass near the bottom to be sure, but IEC relabeled Mullards all the time. I've got a few IEC/Mullard 12AX7's.



Looks like it says B7B.

I picked them up cause they were in cool boxes and I thought they were mullards...have no real need for 12AT7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> The Eico is a Dynamic Conductance tester.



That's still not a mutual conductance tester, though. Everybody came up with a different name for their test system. That was EICO's method. Like I said, emissions testers just check for current flow, or conductance. I have an Eico 666, trust me, it's an emissions tester.


----------



## RiverRatt

Another garbage bag full of tubes has been gone through. I found a bunch of old 4-pin 5Z3 and all kinds of 5U4 rectifiers - like I needed more rectifier tubes. This was the best tube in the bag. I haven't tested it yet, but it looks like it's seen some use. It's a Stromberg Carlson-labeled 6550. The base is kinda cruddy but it looks like I can make out the Tung-Sol 322 EIA code. I'm not real hip on 6550's. I thought they were mostly GE tubes. They are some big sumbitches.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Looks like it says B7B.
> 
> I picked them up cause they were in cool boxes and I thought they were mullards...have no real need for 12AT7's.



Yup, that's a 1957 Blackburn tube. Good tubes! As long as you don't have much invested, it's always good to have a few 12AT7's on-hand for the occasional Fender amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Looks like it says B7B.
> 
> I picked them up cause they were in cool boxes and I thought they were mullards...have no real need for 12AT7's.



If they were Mullard 12AX7 10M's, they'd be worth around $150 each NIB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Been playing with the new tester (Eico 667). Seems pretty cool. Funny, it seems that I could get about the same info from my little Accurate 157. Of course, I think the 157 is not as accurate (my best tubes were checking about 80% on it and over 100% on the Eico).



One thing you need to check on that Eico is the tube chart. Many of them had erroneous information. There are some Internet sites that offer this upgraded info. RATT probably knows more about this than me.

The other thing is the Eico's do tend to read high. I buy tubes from a wholesale guy who has a 667. All of his tubes read over 100 percent. On my tester, they read a lot differently.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Welcome back Marty!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Welcome back Marty!



+1! Yeah, I have an Excel spreadsheet with corrected data for the Eico 666/667. I'd love to sell mine for parts if anybody's trying to restore a 666. It always reads way too low and I don't know how to fix it. The B&K is much easier to work on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went back and looked at all the posts I missed while I was gone. It seems as if things were a bit slow. I think we need to have some sort of give away. "In 100 words or less, tell Alan why you should receive a NOS V1 from him."

Funny thing I noticed. There are a lot of guys who diss NOS tubes, but if you offer them one for free, they are all over it.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> One thing you need to check on that Eico is the tube chart. Many of them had erroneous information. There are some Internet sites that offer this upgraded info. RATT probably knows more about this than me.
> 
> The other thing is the Eico's do tend to read high. I buy tubes from a wholesale guy who has a 667. All of his tubes read over 100 percent. On my tester, they read a lot differently.



I have an addendum that came with it with the updated tube chart info.

So, this my latest questions...1. when I see dual triode tubes listed as testing 105/110 or whatever, is that the emissions readings?
2. If I check el34's on my Eico and two have the same reading, are they considered matched?
3. Also, waht is a RAM 12ax7?


----------



## sccloser

I should receive my free NOS v1 tube from Alan because I have been on here the last few nights when hardly anyone else was around. Besides, he can save me $30 by sending me a Matsushita...


----------



## MM54

I should get a free NOS V1 because... wait... there is no reason. Scratch that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> I have an addendum that came with it with the updated tube chart info.
> 
> So, this my latest questions...1. when I see dual triode tubes listed as testing 105/110 or whatever, is that the emissions readings?
> 2. If I check el34's on my Eico and two have the same reading, are they considered matched?
> 3. Also, waht is a RAM 12ax7?



1.Yes, emissions.
2.Well I would say, "No." The reason being is that power tubes are all about passing current. An emissions tester is not going to put any high voltage on the plates. A true mutual conductance tester has a power supply with high B+ for the conductance test. It may not be 450V, but it's high enough for testing purposes.
3.Why is there so much interest in RAM tubes all of a sudden? Am I missing something? The RAM I know relabels a variety of NOS tubes of various brands. See more at this link.

Tube Audio Store - Home of RAM Labs & Music Reference


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's similar to PENTA Labs. PENTA relabels current production tubes after extensive testing.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> 3.Why is there so much interest in RAM tubes all of a sudden? Am I missing something? The RAM I know relabels a variety of NOS tubes of various brands. See more at this link.
> 
> Tube Audio Store - Home of RAM Labs & Music Reference



There is a guy selling some tubes locally and he sent me a list and he had a lot of 12ax7 tubes listed as RAM. I have not spoken to him yet to ask him what they were so I thought I'd ask you...


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! When did I get roped into giving away my tubes!?!?

If I could think of a good contest idea, I might give it a try. Maybe I could do an "Identify This Tube" photo or something... I've got several wonderful SINO 12AX7's that would make great prizes!


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> There is a guy selling some tubes locally and he sent me a list and he had a lot of 12ax7 tubes listed as RAM. I have not spoken to him yet to ask him what they were so I thought I'd ask you...



Well there is no telling who made them. It could be a Telefunken or a Mullard. If you are good at identifying the guts of the tube and hopefully a code on the tube, that will help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! When did I get roped into giving away my tubes!?!?
> 
> If I could think of a good contest idea, I might give it a try. Maybe I could do an "Identify This Tube" photo or something... I've got several wonderful SINO 12AX7's that would make great prizes!



Wow! You are really extending yourself Alan. SINO's...really???


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've got 60 or so brand new CP tubes of all brands. How about a grand prize of V1 "Rolling Set?" It could have a Tung-Sol, Mullard RI, JJ 83 and 803.

Now we just need to think of a good contest that would generate some activity over here.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey...I was here....some anyway...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's time for me to call it a night. That week long music festival and sleeping on an air mattress in my van has hit me hard this year. I am just beat.


----------



## sccloser

It was just starting to hop in here! i drove 500 miles today...I can't sleep! Besides, the tubes won't let me...

The toobs! The toobs! The t o o o o o b s !!!!!!:eek2:


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> Hey...I was here....some anyway...



Thank you...at least someone was around to talk tubes with me.


----------



## sccloser

Man, not even a cricket chirping....


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry dude, I've been sick. I'm afraid to start posting much. I'm running on decongestants, narcotic cough syrup and a few sips of tequila. I tend to ramble a bit with all that going on. I'm really getting pissed at this batch of tubes I'm going through. I've found a few odds and ends that are decent, but as far as guitar amp tubes are concerned, I've found one 6L6CG that would have been fine if it hadn't lost its vacuum, I found one RCA 12AX7 and some Motorola-branded EL34. I also have a single 6550 power tube. Tons of 5U4 rectifier tubes, one 5U4GTY that looks like a rectifier stuffed in an ice-cream cone, and I think a 12AT7 and a 12AV7. All kinds of good brands, but useless tubes. I'm down to the last 30-gallon bag. Wish me luck.

Talking about tube rolling for a while (remember when we used to do that?), I tried running the Raytheon black plate in V1 and a smooth-plate Tele in V2. The gain was less than I expected, but the tone wasn't bad at all. A little bright, but very clearly-defined notes and chords. It helps that I had it cranked, too. I think the sound was really more 2203 than JTM45. Plus, the body control seemed to be not quite so muddy.


----------



## MM54

I can't wait to see all the weird, random tubes you have


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, sounds like my trip yesterday. The retired tech had 3 or 4 caddies full of tubes. I got all the 12ax7's...all 5 of them...lol! I got the two IEC 10M 12at7 tubes. He had a few 6l6 tubes, but like I posted in the pt forum, most were the 6l6gb.

He has a good many 12at7 and 12au7. Had some nice Raytheons...for televisions.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, right now I'm just throwing them back in bags. I've found several examples of an EL86 which looks like it would make a good lower-watt pentode. I'm keeping all those kind of tubes that look like a double-triode or a small bottle pentode. Think there are several that would make great little low-watt tube amps but it seems pointless to design a circuit when you only have four of the power tubes to work with!

I think right now I'm just looking for marketable tubes. Then I'm going to go through all the sweep tubes and compactrons and linear amp tubes (6LQ6! - they are THE tube). I've weeded out a few of the better ones for him but I have no idea what those guys use.


----------



## MM54

I'd like to get (or make) a caddy sometime. As it is, my tubes live in drawers and bins in a big cabinet unit type thing. I need to get boxes for them all (IF ANYONE HAS LOTS OF BOXES LET ME KNOW) and organize them somehow so I have room for lots more


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Yeah, sounds like my trip yesterday. The retired tech had 3 or 4 caddies full of tubes. I got all the 12ax7's...all 5 of them...lol! I got the two IEC 10M 12at7 tubes. He had a few 6l6 tubes, but like I posted in the pt forum, most were the 6l6gb.
> 
> He has a good many 12at7 and 12au7. Had some nice Raytheons...for televisions.



Matt might be interested in the 6L6GB's. You out there Matt? 

I sent him a couple to try in his amp. Thankfully one of them was actually good. They might work in a 5881 circuit as well if the bias will go low enough. I think all the parameters are pretty close except that the 6L6BB is a 19 watt tube and the 5881 is a 23 watt.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I'd like to get (or make) a caddy sometime. As it is, my tubes live in drawers and bins in a big cabinet unit type thing. I need to get boxes for them all (IF ANYONE HAS LOTS OF BOXES LET ME KNOW) and organize them somehow so I have room for lots more



I've got two caddies. One of them is an old Sylvania that's seen better days but I'd hate to part with it just becaue it's so useful. They're just too convenient for keeping your A-stock away from the dregs. And there's no way in Hell am I giving up my Bicentennial Zenith caddy!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Matt, just found one for you. It's a 5932 which is a ruggedized 6L6GB. Massive tube. I think you likey


----------



## MM54




----------



## RiverRatt

Make that two 5932's. Sounds like they could do well in your amp. 

5932 @ The National Valve Museum


----------



## ics1974

Hi everyone,
I guess you can say I am a noob when it comes to tubes. I was hoping someone can help me answer some questions.
First off my amp is a JCM 2000 DSL 50 that I just bought used the other day. The date on the back says it was manufactured in 2005 but I noticed it still has the stock tubes in it. I also noticed sometimes I can hear a crackle sound that comes and goes. Looks like it's time for a tube change.
here are my questions.
1. Do the power tubes have to be the same make and model number?
2. same question about the preamp tubes?
3. For future reference do you have to re-bias if changing only the preamp tubes or is biasing only for power tubes?
4. Once you change your tubes and re-bias do you bias it again after the tubes have broken in? say in like 6 months?
Thanks


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Make that two 5932's. Sounds like they could do well in your amp.
> 
> 5932 @ The National Valve Museum



They're cute 

If they've the spec's of a 6L6G/GB/GC then they'll work in the CA10  Let me know when you've gone through your mountain of tubes and we can sort out what's going where  According to the link they're the mystery 6L6GA I've always wondered about, cool! Now if we can find a 6L6GT 

(Just noticed that's kind of ambiguous, I'll reiterate: I'm interested, again though as part of the oddball box or whatever  )


----------



## sccloser

ics1974 said:


> Hi everyone,
> I guess you can say I am a noob when it comes to tubes. I was hoping someone can help me answer some questions.
> First off my amp is a JCM 2000 DSL 50 that I just bought used the other day. The date on the back says it was manufactured in 2005 but I noticed it still has the stock tubes in it. I also noticed sometimes I can hear a crackle sound that comes and goes. Looks like it's time for a tube change.
> here are my questions.
> 1. Do the power tubes have to be the same make and model number?
> 2. same question about the preamp tubes?
> 3. For future reference do you have to re-bias if changing only the preamp tubes or is biasing only for power tubes?
> 4. Once you change your tubes and re-bias do you bias it again after the tubes have broken in? say in like 6 months?
> Thanks



Welcome to the forum!

1. You should definitely use the same tube type for all power tubes, and it is best for them to be all of the same manufacturer and matched. 
2. You can mix and match pre amp tubes from different manufacturers as long as they are the same type as the circuit is designed to use and/or an acceptable substitute.
3. Preamp tubes are self biasing. You should check and adjust your bias each time you change power tubes.
4, You can check your power tube bias after using the amp a while to make sure that the bias setting did not drift, and then readjust if necessary. While it is a good idea to do so, I do not think many do that, except maybe us tube junkies.


----------



## sccloser

Hopefully re-tubing will address your crackling problem in your DSL 50. There have been other issues to cause that, however, such as damaged pcb boards, etc. You may want to have the amp checked out by a tech to determine what the problem may be.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ics1974 said:


> Hi everyone,
> I guess you can say I am a noob when it comes to tubes. I was hoping someone can help me answer some questions.
> First off my amp is a JCM 2000 DSL 50 that I just bought used the other day. The date on the back says it was manufactured in 2005 but I noticed it still has the stock tubes in it. I also noticed sometimes I can hear a crackle sound that comes and goes. Looks like it's time for a tube change.
> here are my questions.
> 1. Do the power tubes have to be the same make and model number?
> 2. same question about the preamp tubes?
> 3. For future reference do you have to re-bias if changing only the preamp tubes or is biasing only for power tubes?
> 4. Once you change your tubes and re-bias do you bias it again after the tubes have broken in? say in like 6 months?
> Thanks



1.Power tubes are sold as a matched set. With the DSL50, you will need a matched pair. It is advisable to use the same brand.
2.Preamp tubes (12AX7/ECC83) can be of various brands. You can "roll" tubes to see what sounds best.
3.You only have to adjust the bias when swapping out power tubes. You can plug and play any preamp tube.
4.While most probably don't, it is a good idea to check the bias at the six month mark to see if the power tubes are stable and holding the proper bias.

If you have any more questions. just ask.


----------



## ics1974

sccloser said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> 1. You should definitely use the same tube type for all power tubes, and it is best for them to be all of the same manufacturer and matched.
> 2. You can mix and match pre amp tubes from different manufacturers as long as they are the same type as the circuit is designed to use and/or an acceptable substitute.
> 3. Preamp tubes are self biasing. You should check and adjust your bias each time you change power tubes.
> 4, You can check your power tube bias after using the amp a while to make sure that the bias setting did not drift, and then readjust if necessary. While it is a good idea to do so, I do not think many do that, except maybe us tube junkies.


 
Thanks for answering my qustions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good job SC.


----------



## ics1974

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1.Power tubes are sold as a matched set. With the DSL50, you will need a matched pair. It is advisable to use the same brand.
> 2.Preamp tubes (12AX7/ECC83) can be of various brands. You can "roll" tubes to see what sounds best.
> 3.You only have to adjust the bias when swapping out power tubes. You can plug and play any preamp tube.
> 4.While most probably don't, it is a good idea to check the bias at the six month mark to see if the power tubes are stable and holding the proper bias.
> 
> If you have any more questions. just ask.


 
Thanks!


----------



## Lowlife

Bidding on these RCA's
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

How high should i go for them?


----------



## ics1974

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1.Power tubes are sold as a matched set. With the DSL50, you will need a matched pair. It is advisable to use the same brand.
> 2.Preamp tubes (12AX7/ECC83) can be of various brands. You can "roll" tubes to see what sounds best.
> 3.You only have to adjust the bias when swapping out power tubes. You can plug and play any preamp tube.
> 4.While most probably don't, it is a good idea to check the bias at the six month mark to see if the power tubes are stable and holding the proper bias.
> 
> If you have any more questions. just ask.


 
I do have a question about tubes Marty.

I have no idea about which tubes sound best, last longest and so on. I just want to replace the stock tubes in my DSL 50 amp with some tubes that sound similar to the stock tubes. I am on a budget as well. Any sugestion?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ics1974 said:


> I do have a question about tubes Marty.
> 
> I have no idea about which tubes sound best, last longest and so on. I just want to replace the stock tubes in my DSL 50 amp with some tubes that sound similar to the stock tubes. I am on a budget as well. Any sugestion?



Try the EH EL34's for power.

Use a Tung-Sol 12AX7 for V1. You can then use JJ ECC83's in V2 and V3 and a regular EH 12AX7 for V4.

ECC83 and 12AX7 are the same. This would be a low cost set to consider.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> They're cute
> 
> If they've the spec's of a 6L6G/GB/GC then they'll work in the CA10  Let me know when you've gone through your mountain of tubes and we can sort out what's going where  According to the link they're the mystery 6L6GA I've always wondered about, cool! Now if we can find a 6L6GT
> 
> (Just noticed that's kind of ambiguous, I'll reiterate: I'm interested, again though as part of the oddball box or whatever  )



I just sent a pair of 6L6GT's to johnv. I'd send you one but I'm down to my last pair. They are the same as the Russian 6P3S (6n3C). You can get them pretty cheap on eBay. They sound incredible in an Egnater Tweaker 15.


----------



## ics1974

MartyStrat54 said:


> Try the EH EL34's for power.
> 
> Use a Tung-Sol 12AX7 for V1. You can then use JJ ECC83's in V2 and V3 and a regular EH 12AX7 for V4.
> 
> ECC83 and 12AX7 are the same. This would be a low cost set to consider.


 
Thanks Marty. Just for learning purposes why these tubes and why in this order?


----------



## MartyStrat54

V1 is your primary gain stages. You want the best tube here and a Tung-Sol is about the quietest current production tube. The first JJ goes in V2 which is the secondary gain stages. It is not as important as V1, so a cheaper tube can be run here. V3 is the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower and a JJ will work here. V4 is the PI and the EH will work well in this slot.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I just sent a pair of 6L6GT's to johnv. I'd send you one but I'm down to my last pair. They are the same as the Russian 6P3S (6n3C). You can get them pretty cheap on eBay. They sound incredible in an Egnater Tweaker 15.





I like how the 6L6 has come in pretty much every bottle configuration for octal tubes, metal, G, GA/GT, GB, GC, and so on


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> I just sent a pair of 6L6GT's to johnv...


Looking forward to trying them out! I think I have to try one in my Picovalve too...


----------



## RiverRatt

You should have gotten them today, John. The tracking number says they were delivered.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Make sure the mailman put them in your box. I sent some tubes to a member once and they ended up in the neighbors mailbox.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got home from the office about an hour ago. Seems like this place is always hoppin' when I'm busy, then when I get some free time it's dead-dead-deadski.

Hey Matt, do you want to give me a list of tube numbers you're looking for? So far I've just been going through these tubes picking out the goodies, but I'm about to start putting them in cartons by tube number. Speak now if you want me to hold any out for you. I've got a LOT of 7-pin radio tubes that you might could use. 50C5's, 35W4's, 6BA6, etc. I remember running across a handful of EL86 power pentodes. They won't sub directly for an EL84 but they are supposed to have a really nice sound. I've read on some of the hi-fi forums that they are a great tube to build an amp around. I think I only had maybe 4 or 5 though.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I just got home from the office about an hour ago. Seems like this place is always hoppin' when I'm busy, then when I get some free time it's dead-dead-deadski.
> 
> Hey Matt, do you want to give me a list of tube numbers you're looking for? So far I've just been going through these tubes picking out the goodies, but I'm about to start putting them in cartons by tube number. Speak now if you want me to hold any out for you. I've got a LOT of 7-pin radio tubes that you might could use. 50C5's, 35W4's, 6BA6, etc. I remember running across a handful of EL86 power pentodes. They won't sub directly for an EL84 but they are supposed to have a really nice sound. I've read on some of the hi-fi forums that they are a great tube to build an amp around. I think I only had maybe 4 or 5 though.



All my equipment is as home, but I spend the day trying to remember what tubes my radios and stuff use and will send them to you later today hopefully. All around, a nice variety is always nice.

I do remember 45C5's and 50C5's being common, and 6BA6's and 12BA6's are in a lot of radios. My dad has a lot of old tube receivers and tuners, maybe I'll call him, too.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> You should have gotten them today, John. The tracking number says they were delivered.


Got 'em, they were waiting for me at the mail box. Thanks, Alan! I've already put one in the PicoValve (very easy, pops right in). It adds an overall smoothness to the tone and some nice fat lower mids, sounds more like a good EL34 than when I put an actual EL34 in there


----------



## sccloser

OK, so my Ei tubes have not been sent yet because Paypal has again screwed me by not placing payments into my account, which caused me to be a mere $3 short on my outstanding payments, so I incurred not one, but two $25 NSF charges because Paypal tried to get the money twice. I spoke with paypal this morning and they are now transferring my money to me, and I went to the bank to straighten things out and all I had to say was, "Paypal" to the branch manager and she nodded and said she understood and I got a refund on the fees. 

Lesson learned: Do not rely on Paypal's statements that any money has been transferred into your account until you verify it yourself.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> OK, so my Ei tubes have not been sent yet because Paypal has again screwed me by not placing payments into my account, which caused me to be a mere $3 short on my outstanding payments, so I incurred not one, but two $25 NSF charges because Paypal tried to get the money twice. I spoke with paypal this morning and they are now transferring my money to me, and I went to the bank to straighten things out and all I had to say was, "Paypal" to the branch manager and she nodded and said she understood and I got a refund on the fees.
> 
> Lesson learned: Do not rely on Paypal's statements that any money has been transferred into your account until you verify it yourself.


Good advice..I haven't had a prob yet, but have been told there were some issues....like getting money out of them to your bank.....so far so good tho....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you not have a backup account that covers any shortages? If my PayPal account goes below 0, money is then drafted from my checking account.

I've been using PayPal since 2004 without any problems.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Bidding on these RCA's
> eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
> 
> How high should i go for them?



Sorry for the slow response. I missed this post. I see that the bidding isn't too active and one of the tubes is slightly microphonic. I would not go over $22 for these tubes. The seller is someone I have dealt with in the past and he is honest.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you not have a backup account that covers any shortages? If my PayPal account goes below 0, money is then drafted from my checking account.
> 
> I've been using PayPal since 2004 without any problems.



The money was supposed to be transferred from my paypal account to my verified bank account back around September 10th (they say to allow 3 business days.) Well, it had not transferred yet, and that was where the problem came in.


----------



## sccloser

I've used paypal since it first started, back around 99 or 2000 I think. I never had any problems until about a year ago, ever since I verified a bank account. But there have not been many problems.

Now I had a friend who had an ebay business that had big problems with paypal refunding money to buyers before he got the merchandise returned. He lost a lot of money to scammers that way. He shipped a vintage Les Paul once that paypal refunded money to the buyer before he got the guitar back and when he got it back it was stripped. I think paypal has changed its refund policy since then, but at one time Sellers could easily get screwed if your buyer was dishonest.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've had pretty good luck with PayPal. There was one payment for like $15 a couple of years ago that neither I or the buyer had any problem with, but for some reason PayPal froze my account for like a week and made me provide all kinds of documentation. This was before I had even shipped the item!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did Cody ever get his 59 back from Joey. What's going on with that?


----------



## solarburn

Maybe it blew up? Wasn't Joey testing it to make sure it didn't...

I didn't feel anything...


----------



## MartyStrat54

14,000 big one's. 
I remember when the Preamp Thread had 700 posts and I had 900. Holy cow, that was back in 2009. Sure was a lot of fun back then.


----------



## BluesRocker

No I havent. It is done though. He emailed me last week to tell me this:

"I thought I would give you an update. Right now I have some super high power Mosfets, and a huge ass heatsink on order. I spent the last couple of weeks trying to get to the bottom of this scaling issue. The problem is that the power scaling works when there is no load. as soon as I put a load on it (plug in the valves) The Mosfet that handles the HT scaling for the plates, screens, and PI, silently dies. I have tried all the Mosfets I had, and all are not robust enough to handle 100W scaling. I also need better heatsinking than the steel chassis can provide.

Here's the upside:

The thing sounds pretty damn good. It has a nice smooth overdrive in cascade mode, and sounds like it should through all the other inputs. I will try to make a video of it in the next couple of days. I dialed back the treble on the bright input because it is REALLY bright on that channel like every other plexi."

So, I am still waiting on this bad ass amp..


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> 14,000 big one's.
> I remember when the Preamp Thread had 700 posts and I had 900. Holy cow, that was back in 2009. Sure was a lot of fun back then.



A shot and a BURP!


----------



## solarburn

Oh hai. 58 more and I get 5K...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Cody, I thought it was probably the power scaling. If it was mine, I'd be happy just to have the 100 watts of brutal Marshall power. My power scaling would be:

1.Toilet paper in my ears.
2.Cheap throw away ear plugs.
3.Professional hunting ear muffs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I joined Marshall Vintage. It's really strange being the only person on that forum. I posted up some comments and I was the only one on there. Geez.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Cody, I thought it was probably the power scaling. If it was mine, I'd be happy just to have the 100 watts of brutal Marshall power. My power scaling would be:
> 
> 1.Toilet paper in my ears.
> 2.Cheap throw away ear plugs.
> 3.Professional hunting ear muffs.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Oh hai. 58 more and I get 5K...



Post count frenzy Joe!


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe and Marty, I'm glad to see you guys back in here posting. We need to get Josh back in here on a regular basis, too. I still have fun with this thread and it's really unusual for a group of people to carry on like this for years and years. Hell, I joined up in 2008. That's about as long as I've ever done anything except marriage and newspapers.

Not quite a Marshall preamp quetion, but did anyone else try one of those Vox AC4TV Mini's? I found one for under $100 with warranty and all so I scooped it up. It should be here Monday. I've heard that through a bigger cab, these things sound great! 

I was really looking for something portable to take over to my mom's house on Sunday afternoons. My sister's kid (20 years old?) is a decent guitar player and I'm always bringing stuff out there for him to play. He's got one of those old Peavey Bandit amps and a Line 6 Pocket Pod, and the smallest amp I have is a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12. Not exactly portable. I know with a speaker that small, it's not going to have any bass at all, but if the mids are nice and crisp I can live with it. I can't stand those little transistor amps. I'm hoping this fills that void.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I've tried this amp before. You're right, it's all midrange. If you had a good 212 cab for it, it would sound better, but then you could just take the HR Deville. 

An Eminence Rajin Cajun would probably sound better than the stock speaker, but they only come in 8 ohm. Tough to find a solid 10-inch speaker with some bass in 16 ohm. Of course, these micro amps are all weak in the low end, because as we all know, it takes more power to produce clean lows. The amp itself is acting as a band pass filter.

I hope you like it. It wasn't for me. I realized as soon as the novelty had worn off, I would be bored with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I never keep shit like this anyway. It is what it is... a toy to play with awhile and then move it along. I just make sure that I don't end up with too much money tied up in one of these experiments so I can dump it for more than I paid for it. Besides, little 1x12AX7 and 1xEL84 can be fun little amps to tinker with. I know it'll sound at least as good as that Epi Valve Jr. I had a year or two ago.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, this is the original version with the 6.5" speaker. I still have the option of returning it if I hate it 

I really need a smaller combo like the Tweaker 15 or AC15C1 as a grab-n-go amp. my Fender and Ampeg are only slightly more portable than the Vintage Modern/425A setup.

I've threatened to get the AC15C1 before but I hear it's not even close to the amp that the AC30CC2 is. Maybe I'd be better off to wait and get a Ceriatone 18W TMB with the PPIMP master volume. I'd really love to play through one of the Ceriatones before I buy anything else.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is an original version??? They came out in like 1961. What is the year of manufacture on this one? Yeah a 6.5-inch speaker is going to sound like a transistorized portable radio.

VOX amps just seem to be tube eaters. I know the 30 is. Anytime you enclose all that heat it ain't going to be good.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is an original version??? They came out in like 1961. What is the year of manufacture on this one? Yeah a 6.5-inch speaker is going to sound like a transistorized portable radio.
> 
> VOX amps just seem to be tube eaters. I know the 30 is. Anytime you enclose all that heat it ain't going to be good.



I mean the first reissue of the AC4TV. Like I said, a simple prop to occupy my time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you see that thread on the guy (Blueslicks) with the 2061? He claimed that he was only getting 2-3 hour tube life, because he was diming the amp. I told him he has a problem with the cathode biasing on that amp. There's no way that Marshall is going to sell an amp that eats power tubes every 2-3 hours. He said he was changing his preamp tubes at the same time as they were worn as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, okay. I got you now. 

I didn't know you liked REM.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn man, "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" is one of my all-time favorite Vox tones. I used to listen to REM back when they were just a bar band out of Georgia.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I used to sing all the REM covers in the "Condors" band.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I used to sing all the REM covers in the "Condors" band.



I like a lot of REM stuff. I don't particularly like Peter Buck. Not because of his guitar playing (he's a genius), but more because of his shitty personality. At least that's the way he comes across in the media associated with him. I don't personally know the man. He may be a fine induvidual, but he comes across as an arrogant asshole in most interviews.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Joe and Marty, I'm glad to see you guys back in here posting. We need to get Josh back in here on a regular basis, too. I still have fun with this thread and it's really unusual for a group of people to carry on like this for years and years. Hell, I joined up in 2008. That's about as long as I've ever done anything except marriage and newspapers.
> 
> Not quite a Marshall preamp quetion, but did anyone else try one of those Vox AC4TV Mini's? I found one for under $100 with warranty and all so I scooped it up. It should be here Monday. I've heard that through a bigger cab, these things sound great!
> 
> I was really looking for something portable to take over to my mom's house on Sunday afternoons. My sister's kid (20 years old?) is a decent guitar player and I'm always bringing stuff out there for him to play. He's got one of those old Peavey Bandit amps and a Line 6 Pocket Pod, and the smallest amp I have is a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12. Not exactly portable. I know with a speaker that small, it's not going to have any bass at all, but if the mids are nice and crisp I can live with it. I can't stand those little transistor amps. I'm hoping this fills that void.



I've played a little on one of those when they first came out. I liked it pretty well, but then they were like $180 and I did not like it that much...hehe. But for $100 I might would have snapped one up myself.

I just noticed you said it had a 6.5 inch speaker? The one I tried had a 10 inch speaker, so it must be something different that what you are getting.


----------



## RiverRatt

It must have been a close-out deal. They aren't listed on the site anymore.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got cool last night. Made me wish I was still camping down in Winfield, Kansas. It got very cool there for several days with some on and off light rain. It didn't bother the stage acts or jam areas that had canopies.

I really miss the fact that every evening, someone would cook up something really good and all I had to do was stand in line to get some.

Oh and there was a lot of real nice looking girls walking around.


----------



## RiverRatt

I love cool weather. Maybe when I get rid of this fookin' cold I'll be able to enjoy it.

Here's a pic for a Sunday night. On the left is a 5R4 rectifier that I've started calling the "ice cream cone", next is one of 8 NOS NIB twin triode gold pin Mullard 8233's I got - I really wish I could find a use for these! Next is a GE 6681 (12AX7) mainly there for size reference, and last is another little twin triode, a 6AL5. Got a bunch of those little 7-pin mini's.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I like a lot of REM stuff. I don't particularly like Peter Buck. Not because of his guitar playing (he's a genius), but more because of his shitty personality. At least that's the way he comes across in the media associated with him. I don't personally know the man. He may be a fine induvidual, but he comes across as an arrogant asshole in most interviews.


I've read some bad press on Peter Buck as well, but in the late 80s at Exit Inn in N'ville, a friends of ours band "The Questionarres" had a CD release party....we were sitting at a table with them and "Peter"....drinking Heinekens with him and talked about Georgia, Little Rock...N'ville...small talk, very nice and not snobby...into the second set...The Singer for The Questionarres said "We have a friend here tonite to get up and jam with us.....Peter Buck"...the guy across the table got up and went on stage, promply picked up a Rickenbacker and jammed out with them for several songs....came back and sat down...we all drank more Heinekens and had a great time....another friend of mine in Denton, Tx worked with Peter on his independent label....my experiences with Peter were all good ones..tho I know different places, day, and moods....we are all human...one of the coolest Celebs I met who one might think was arrongant and all was Pat Travers.....great guy...we all had a great time..."You look like you have some good smoke..."......"Why, yes...I do".....Mars Cowling was with him....in Little Rock at the old DMZ....they rocked the house....thought it might be burnout PT...but he was at his best playing the old ones.....


----------



## RiverRatt

That's cool to know. Yeah, Peter gets bad publicity in the guitar mags. I've quit reading most of 'em. Guitar World is just a gossip rag.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> That's cool to know. Yeah, Peter gets bad publicity in the guitar mags. I've quit reading most of 'em. Guitar World is just a gossip rag.


We all have our days...I think he had an Airplane incident once or so....those damn moody musicians....I'm getting into reading Vintage Guitar Mag....may not be the bottom line, but I've seen some good info....reading about the Top 25 guitar songs....they printed that the guitar track on "Black Dog"....Jimmy Page plugged his '59 direct into the board getting that distortion sound....Tele into a Supro on "Stairway To Heaven".....1st Lead on "La Grange" Gibbons with a '57 Strat in a SuperLead....just cool trivia.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

From my TUBE-O-RAMA thread. NEW CONTEST.

Hello. I have a cool contest here for all who wish to enter. I'm trying to get the forum back on the right tracks. Ya know...amps, guitars, speakers, pickups and TUBES. Yeah, I love tubes and you guys know that.

To enter, you must:

Copy the following image and text.





"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Just use the "Quote" button and copy the image and the text.

Then go to this thread:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how.html

Paste image and text in the Preamp Tube thread.

Then in your own words tell me why you would want to be a tube roller. Try to keep it under 300 words or less. No penalty for going over. 

GRAND PRIZE is EIGHT rolling tubes. Four NOS and four CP. I even pay for postage (USA only). If you live overseas (including Canada and Mexico), you can enter, but you will be responsible for postage and handling.

NOS tubes will be RCA, GE, Sylvania and Raytheon.
CP tubes will be Tung-Sol, Mullard RI, JJ 803 and EH.

(All the above tubes are 12AX7/12AX7A types.)

This is at least $200 in tubes. WOW! Who else would do something like this?
Main judge-Me. Supporting judges, Alan (River Ratt) and Joe (SolarBurn).

ATTENTION: POST YOUR CONTEST QUESTIONS HERE, BUT DO NOT POST YOUR ENTRY HERE. IF YOU DO, IT WILL BE INVALID. I WANT ALL ENTRIES OVER ON THE PREAMP TUBE THREAD. PLEASE DO NOT PM ME WITH QUESTIONS. POST YOUR QUESTIONS/COMMENTS HERE.

One grand prize only. Entry must be submitted by midnight, October 31, 2011.
Winner's name to be announced here and on the Preamp Tube thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe and Alan, you have been selected as judges. I will pick the best entries and then get your feedback on them. Only one winner. Contest ends midnight, October 31, 2011.


----------



## eljeffebrown

"Why I want to become a tube roller"

Sorry about this Marty but.............


My life of tone ( a short history of one mans quest for "TONE")

1984 - Fender (something) 15 watt practice amp + a Honer strat copy = feedback monster, but it 
Sounded like the album so I thought it was cool! Conclusion, as Dennis Leary would say “You don't shit about shit and pull up you pants”! 

1985 – 88 Gorilla, need I say more? Same guitar modded (by me and a friend) Duncan Invader in the bridge more gain than anyone would ever need, EVER!

Ah here is where the tides turn. KMD GV 60 D Tube Amp! And I scored a 61 Gibson SG Junior at a garage sale for $50. They both got stolen out of the back of my van while I was at the movies one night! Didn’t know what I had anyway because I didn’t like the way they sounded! <- DUMMY! Gibson, Honer and amp GONE!

Next one hurts, after all that happened I bought a HIWATT 50 Watt 1X12 combo. Don’t remember what it was. I was smokin ALLOT of weed at the time so it really didn’t matter. 

At this point in my life I discovered chics and guitars became back seat for awhile! SON I WAS GETTING LAID! You get it!

89 – My first real dive into tone. I bought an old Carvin XB100 half stack from a buddy of mine for $300 and put a Boss DS-1 in from of it and found “TONE” for the first time in my life. I used this amp for a few years before it died on me in the mid 90’s (94-95) do to water damage, long story, anyway I really taught myself what tone was supposed to sound like with that head and cab combo. BTW I still own the Cab; I’m trying to restore it still.

94-95 Do to the death of the Carvin I had to replace it quick. A band mate had an old Peavey VT-M120 head so I bought that from him for x amount of dollars. It was a good head and it was probably the loudest head I have ever owned to date but it had one tone and that tone was MIDS and MIDS ONLY!! For the life of me I COULD NOT get any other tone from that thing. I think that was why it was SO loud!

95 - 2003
I need to interject some tone information here. One of my good friends Phil Demmel (Vio-lence, Torque and Machine Head) at this point in my life changed my idea of what “tone” was forever. He simply said this to me one night, “don’t set your tone for what you think sounds good to you, set your tone for what you think will work best for the sound man, and you will have the best tone in the world!” so I started thinking more like a soundman than like a guitar player. I started to realize that a guitar isn’t a bass, the EQ shouldn’t read PRES 10 TREB 9 MID 4 BASS 8. Actually whenever I get a new head or any piece of equipment (w an EQ) I start flat. On Marshalls that means everything except VOL set on 5. 5 is FLAT on a Marshall EQ. getting off subject here, my point is a guitar is the “MIDS” of the band not the bass or the drums, lets get back to where we belong guys out of the MUD! 

So to get on with my story of tone here is where I jumped up into a different league of tone. I walked into my local music store one day (which I had done about a thousand times up to this point) and saw something new sitting on the floor. It was a Mesa Boogie S.O.B. (Son of the Original Boogie) 100 Watt head Circa 1983 brand new it still had the original tags on it. It read $1300, So, I asked my buddy Jim who worked there “how much for the head on the ground there?” and he said “I don’t know, we just got it in like 20 min ago, it’s not even in the system yet. How’s $500 sound?” I nearly shat myself! I said “will you take my head (Peavey VT-M120) and $200 in trade?” “Yea, sure.” And I owned a Brand new Boogie S.O.B.! I don’t remember him working there much after that! HA!

2003-2008
I moved into a new era at this point I found Line 6. I bought a Pod Pro 2.0 and was running it into my Boogie but that was starting to become a pain in the ass to have to stack my head on top of this brand new piece of equipment so I sold the Boogie to a friend and bought a Marshall Mono Block 100/100 running through two Marshall 1960A cab’s. My rig was top of the food chain at this point. Fucking hella loud, tons of head room and tone for days! I was happy as a pig in shit! Then that’s when it happened, my band dissipated! At this point I gave up on music. My equipment was just sitting collecting dust in our extra bedroom and guess what, we get pregnant. That was it. I sold everything except my guitars. Now before you trip out, let my clarify something. I’ve been in the game for more than 20 years and have had 3 record contracts sitting in front of me on the table so I’ve been there and done that and at this point with the news on my daughter, I was done with music! So I retired! DONE!

2008 – Present
Wrong! Who was I kidding? I’ve been playing guitar so long now that it is ingrained in me like the way I walk is! I took a long enough break for my daughter to be born and I was right back at it. I bought the Pod Pro back from the guy I sold it to, got a Marshall 9005 Power Amp and Borrowed a Peavey 4X12 cab from a friend. Started writing some of my own stuff “Revel In Swine” and then got into “Cursed”. Sold the Pod/Marsall rack to buy my JCM900 and that leads us to where we are today. A Modded JCM900 4500 W a 20DB loop boost, A Carvin 412T Cab, two ESP LTD’s and one Samick Malibu M1! It IS the best tone I have ever had But, just like the rest of you, I WILL always search for the “perfect” tone, that’s why I want to become a tube roller, how about you?


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Joe and Marty, I'm glad to see you guys back in here posting. We need to get Josh back in here on a regular basis, too. I still have fun with this thread and it's really unusual for a group of people to carry on like this for years and years. Hell, I joined up in 2008. That's about as long as I've ever done anything except marriage and newspapers.
> 
> Not quite a Marshall preamp quetion, but did anyone else try one of those Vox AC4TV Mini's? I found one for under $100 with warranty and all so I scooped it up. It should be here Monday. I've heard that through a bigger cab, these things sound great!
> 
> I was really looking for something portable to take over to my mom's house on Sunday afternoons. My sister's kid (20 years old?) is a decent guitar player and I'm always bringing stuff out there for him to play. He's got one of those old Peavey Bandit amps and a Line 6 Pocket Pod, and the smallest amp I have is a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12. Not exactly portable. I know with a speaker that small, it's not going to have any bass at all, but if the mids are nice and crisp I can live with it. I can't stand those little transistor amps. I'm hoping this fills that void.




Oh sure Alan, what about me and Vic, what are we, chopped liver??

Just kidding!!!! 


Great job on the Tube Roller thing Marty!!!


----------



## 61rocker

Wow....great prize Marty....

Why I want to be a tube roller?
I love the texture of great guitar tone. Since I came to the forum and delved into vintage and NOS....I didn't realize the ambiance that rolling tubes can create...
I like to record my original music....rolling opens up a whole new way to create different guitar sounds with out changing amps or even guitars...I understand now how the great guitar players achieve and enhance their tone....I can write a song just around the tone of a guitar and rolling tubes is a great medium to achieve what sound I can hear in my head....
Rawk on Brothers....


----------



## solarburn

Great read El' Jeffe! Very cool looking at the transitions you went through and the gear used. Excellent post!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe and Alan, you have been selected as judges. I will pick the best entries and then get your feedback on them. Only one winner. Contest ends midnight, October 31, 2011.



We're your huckleberries!

This will liven things up and will have some fun while we're at it.

Too bad we don't have a hot rock girl to show case somebodies tube....s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I made it as easy as I could to enter. It all rests on who can get motivated enough to write a small essay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Too bad we don't have a hot rock girl to show case somebodies tube....s.



Speaking of this, I got an email from Rockin Lisa. I've been trying to get her to come back. I know what's been going on with her private life. If she comes back and wants to devulge some of that, it's up to her.

I told her that you really miss her JOE.


----------



## Ydna

Why I want to become a tube roller.

What can I say. I'm a selfish bastard. Some NOS tubes would really liven up my 45/100. And my future 1969 super lead build that I just ordered the chassis for...


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Oh sure Alan, what about me and Vic, what are we, chopped liver??
> 
> Just kidding!!!!
> 
> 
> Great job on the Tube Roller thing Marty!!!



This made me think about the Swedish Chef on the Muppets...I remember he made a bust of Kermit out of chop liver once!


----------



## sccloser

I scored 4 NOS EI ECC83's last week in the yellow boxes. I was on a business trip and remembered a little shop I had been in before that I remembered seeing some tubes in one of the counters a while back. So I stopped by and they have several tubes...some sovteks, some GT's and some cp marked "Fender." Had a few 6189s. And 4 in the box EI ECC83's. I asked him what he'd take for the EI's and he said $5 each so I got 'em.


----------



## eljeffebrown

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Great read El' Jeffe! Very cool looking at the transitions you went through and the gear used. Excellent post!



Thanx Joe.


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of this, I got an email from Rockin Lisa. I've been trying to get her to come back. I know what's been going on with her private life. If she comes back and wants to devulge some of that, it's up to her.
> 
> I told her that you really miss her JOE.



I got to know her a little before she left, very cool person. It would be nice to see her come back.


----------



## thrawn86

"Why I want to become a tube roller."

Who wouldn't? First of all, there is the obvious: A father of three boys, struggling to provide for them........nothing out of the ordinary for most of us? Of course not. However, when push comes to shove and there are bills to pay, extra's get tossed out the latrine window. Things like NOS tubes and vacations. And how attractive they look from afar.

What do you do when you have nowhere to go? No one to cry to, no place to call home? Music. Cold wrote a song called 'Bleed.' In it he says that his love is music, "I _need_ music, to set me free, to let me Bleed." 

I _bleed_ music. It's always been there through the darkest days I've seen. It's always on, even without a medium to carry it, in my head. And no more intoxicating a form does it take that when coming from my cabinet. I'm drunk without a sip; flying without wings. I write it just before falling asleep every night. Tone and riff come together in full composition.

I'll never be great, I might be good, and I always want the best even when I can't have it. This is my chance.


----------



## eljeffebrown

thrawn86 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Who wouldn't? First of all, there is the obvious: A father of three boys, struggling to provide for them........nothing out of the ordinary for most of us? Of course not. However, when push comes to shove and there are bills to pay, extra's get tossed out the latrine window. Things like NOS tubes and vacations. And how attractive they look from afar.
> 
> What do you do when you have nowhere to go? No one to cry to, no place to call home? Music. Cold wrote a song called 'Bleed.' In it he says that his love is music, "I _need_ music, to set me free, to let me Bleed."
> 
> I _bleed_ music. It's always been there through the darkest days I've seen. It's always on, even without a medium to carry it, in my head. And no more intoxicating a form does it take that when coming from my cabinet. I'm drunk without a sip; flying without wings. I write it just before falling asleep every night. Tone and riff come together in full composition.
> 
> I'll never be great, I might be good, and I always want the best even when I can't have it. This is my chance.



Well said, and I too feel EXACTLY the same as you sir.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of this, I got an email from Rockin Lisa. I've been trying to get her to come back. I know what's been going on with her private life. If she comes back and wants to devulge some of that, it's up to her.
> 
> I told her that you really miss her JOE.



Who wouldn't be smitten by a girl that rocks not one but 2 Marshall amps...

Yes this lovely vixen should take a moment to say hi to her "dirty ole Joe". After all I am a fan!


----------



## solarburn

El Jeffe your avatars...! lmao!


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Who wouldn't? First of all, there is the obvious: A father of three boys, struggling to provide for them........nothing out of the ordinary for most of us? Of course not. However, when push comes to shove and there are bills to pay, extra's get tossed out the latrine window. Things like NOS tubes and vacations. And how attractive they look from afar.
> 
> What do you do when you have nowhere to go? No one to cry to, no place to call home? Music. Cold wrote a song called 'Bleed.' In it he says that his love is music, "I _need_ music, to set me free, to let me Bleed."
> 
> I _bleed_ music. It's always been there through the darkest days I've seen. It's always on, even without a medium to carry it, in my head. And no more intoxicating a form does it take that when coming from my cabinet. I'm drunk without a sip; flying without wings. I write it just before falling asleep every night. Tone and riff come together in full composition.
> 
> I'll never be great, I might be good, and I always want the best even when I can't have it. This is my chance.



Man does this hit home. Those little extras...like tubes mean much more when little is all there is. If they didn't make an amp sound and feel better than really all they are is a little piece of glass. The smile these lil' sardines put on my face when I heard and swear I felt tone thru my fingers, beautiful musical overtones and singing sustain that fed back on itself. Having come from a stiff, sterile sort of saturation to something that was pliable, warm and more organic had an immediate effect over me and more importantly my desire to play. 

I remember the fist time we used the Telefunken/Raytheon BP in our DSL's. SO much better than what I had been using. Now that I became more of a midgain player dynamics become much more important to have. The early breakup tones to mid gain saturation I've found now after years of high gain shenanigans(speaking of my exploits/playing)is where I wanna be.

Coming here and finding the tools to make the best of that was like I got on the right path and found just what I needed. SO these guys here I call friends really have had a positive impact on my playing and G.A.S. Pretty cool outcome if you ask me. Being able to play is damn important to me. Every once in a awhile a neighbor enjoys what's blaring out every crack in our house and my kid tells me so and so said I'm a "hella good player". We know he was prolly drunk, stoned or hearing impaired but I sure didn't pine for any feedback on my playing...from anyone. Poor bastids!

Since mak'n good friends here and gaining some good how to's and what fer's I've got a killer stash of glass/mods and my amps sound and feel better. As far as whether I do...well that's a result of one thing and one thing only...

Playing my guitar. Loud and proud for as long as I'm able.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Oh sure Alan, what about me and Vic, what are we, chopped liver??
> 
> Just kidding!!!!
> 
> 
> Great job on the Tube Roller thing Marty!!!



Nah, I'm just glad to see some of the old guard back on here regularly. We've had some fun with this over the last 3 years, and I'm ALWAYS glad to see some new faces. We've had a lot who dropped in for a few pages and left. Glad most of y'all are sticking around. 

I always loved the old Fender tube amps I grew up with, but until we got on here and started comparing tubes and tone, I didn't know there was a difference. I thought they were like little light bulbs that either worked or didn't. Well, that may be a bit of an over-simplification, but you get the point.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Too bad we don't have a hot rock girl to show case somebodies tube....s.



Yeah, great contest! I know a chick who does pinup calendars and works the big car shows and stuff. Maybe I could get her to do a photo shoot with some tubes covering up the naughty bits.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, great contest! I know a chick who does pinup calendars and works the big car shows and stuff. Maybe I could get her to do a photo shoot with some tubes covering up the naughty bits.



Now you're talk'n!

Major red plating to ensue...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> until we got on here and started comparing tubes and tone, I didn't know there was a difference. I thought they were like little light bulbs that either worked or didn't. Well, that may be a bit of an over-simplification, but you get the point.



Pretty much all I knew about them too.


----------



## eljeffebrown

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, great contest! I know a chick who does pinup calendars and works the big car shows and stuff. Maybe I could get her to do a photo shoot with some tubes covering up the naughty bits.



Are there naughty bits ON tubes?


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> Are there naughty bits ON tubes?



That's what she said.


----------



## RiverRatt

Shit I'm tired! Just got back from taking my daughter and her friend to see Bring Me The Horizon on Beale Street. I made my 19-year-old go along as security. Me and the wife went and had a good dinner and I passed out cigarettes to the street people on Beale while we were waiting for the show to be over. I'm too old for this. Got me a cool book of matches with Elvis on the cover. 

Marty, I hate that you're footing the bill for this contest. I'll throw in a NOS military 5751. Everybody should have one of those, especially if you own a Fender or similar amp. Plus, they are probably the only tube that will safely sub for a 12AX7 in any situation. Also, if you've ever liked a 12AT7 in any position on your Marshall, a 5751 will do it better. It's like a 12AX7-lite. All the tone, 70% of the gain.


----------



## RiverRatt

eljeffebrown said:


> Are there naughty bits ON tubes?



She's not a big girl. I think a couple of strategically placed 12AX7's and maybe a KT66 should be plenty


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Shit I'm tired! Just got back from taking my daughter and her friend to see Bring Me The Horizon on Beale Street. I made my 19-year-old go along as security. Me and the wife went and had a good dinner and I passed out cigarettes to the street people on Beale while we were waiting for the show to be over. I'm too old for this. Got me a cool book of matches with Elvis on the cover.
> 
> Marty, I hate that you're footing the bill for this contest. I'll throw in a NOS military 5751. Everybody should have one of those, especially if you own a Fender or similar amp. Plus, they are probably the only tube that will safely sub for a 12AX7 in any situation. Also, if you've ever liked a 12AT7 in any position on your Marshall, a 5751 will do it better. It's like a 12AX7-lite. All the tone, 70% of the gain.



Good idea Alan. I'll throw in too. For now lets call it a mystery tube and let it be a surprise. I have one in mind. I'll pm you 2 and let you know and then we'll work out the delivery process when its time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I doubt if this image will be allowed to be posted here, or even if it is they may pull it. She's the one on the left.


----------



## RiverRatt

Gentlemen, I am now officially too fucked up to post. I leave you with the immortal words of the great John Prine.

When I woke up this morning, things were lookin' bad
Seem like total silence was the only friend I had
Bowl of oatmeal tried to stare me down... and won
And it was twelve o'clock before I realized
That I was havin' .. no fun

But fortunately I have the key to escape reality

And you may see me tonight with an illegal smile
It don't cost very much, but it lasts a long while
Won't you please tell the man I didn't kill anyone
No I'm just tryin' to have me some fun


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I'll try one more. Posting that Stones clip in the power tube thread reminded me of something else that happened on Beale Street. I stood in front of some club where there was this Johnny Cash cover band, and not a bad one at that, doing a cover of "It's All Over Now". It actually worked on some level. I stood and listened to it for a while. Anytime you've got the balls to try to tie in Johnny Cash and Mick Jagger, I'll at least listen to the effort. 

I've always liked throwing little BS stuff in a set like that. A guy I worked with used to close their first set with the Beverly Hillbillies theme.


----------



## eljeffebrown

RiverRatt said:


> I've always liked throwing little BS stuff in a set like that. A guy I worked with used to close their first set with the Beverly Hillbillies theme.



So do we. We do a cover of "Blinded By Fear" by At The Gates, well, last show we played (and the past few) I told the crowd "this is our last song, it's a cover" then I pause look back to the drummer and make it out like we are debating something and then say "fuck it, we'll do a cover that you wan't to hear, name it, and we'll play it" while we know goddamn well we are still going to do "Blinded". some chic yells from the crowd "Purple Rain" and I said "you got it, here is our version of, (said in a death metal voice) Prince........Purple Rain" and we break into this..............

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAJBhrch0eM]At The Gates - Blinded By Fear (Live at Wacken 2008) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## darrylportelli

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 


1. Smoking is cool, thus rolling a tube is the beez neez
2. I can light cigarettes off the hot ass tubes
3. I can nurture them and brag my head off to friends that I have NOS glass while they only have PLASTIC shit
4. They probably would sound best in my marshall and not yours(to other contestants)
5.Im poor, I cant afford jugs let alone NOS ones.( had to save up 2 years worth of stipends to buy my head)

plus *I bet chicks dig hot penis shaped objects* the bigger the better they say so I guess Power tubes are more appreciated by the women folk. 

by the way when would I know that I won?? lool


----------



## MM54

eljeffebrown said:


> Are there naughty bits ON tubes?



I have heard the exhaust tip called the nipple before


----------



## fenderbender420

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Now you're talk'n!
> 
> Major red plating to ensue...



lmfao


----------



## Rahlstin

I put 4 matched 7025's I got from The Tube Store in my DSL100 a few months ago and those tubes sound fantastic.


----------



## chuckmehh

I was going to enter the contest, but after reading thrawn's post I would feel greedy in doing so. Best of luck to ya man; I sincerely hope you get em.


----------



## RiverRatt

chuckmehh said:


> I was going to enter the contest, but after reading thrawn's post I would feel greedy in doing so. Best of luck to ya man; I sincerely hope you get em.



Chuck... greed is your friend when it comes to tube chasing. Be circumspect, but you've got to be aggressive, too. 

There's a term I've picked up from some of my HAM radio friends, a "tube vulture". They wait for some old guy's license to expire or for him to drop off the air, then get in touch with the widow and express how they are saddened by her loss, he was a good friend, tragic death, will miss him on the radio, etc. and then make a move on the tubes and radio gear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Rahlstin said:


> I put 4 matched 7025's I got from The Tube Store in my DSL100 a few months ago and those tubes sound fantastic.



Were they the Preferred Series 7025? Those are some pretty nice tubes. I'm glad they met your expectations.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE and ALAN-I went over to the TUBE-O-RAMA thread and left a post stating that you guys are throwing into the pot. Thank you for contributing. This is going to be the best prize ever on the forum and you guys are part of it.

Now I wish I had made those T-Shirts up.


----------



## Rahlstin

MartyStrat54 said:


> Were they the Preferred Series 7025? Those are some pretty nice tubes. I'm glad they met your expectations.


 
Yup thats the ones.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello everyone. It's been a year. Can you believe that? Marty convinced me to come back. I may stick around, but that's what I said the last time I came back. My life is pretty hectic, but I'm still playing and working my day job. If I have some free time, I will hit you guys up. This thread has gotten huge. No way I am going to read a year's worth of posts.

Anyone here? I'll hang around for a bit. I have a lot of unanswered PM's (ha-ha).


----------



## fenderbender420

i know i dont know you but the guys always say how much they miss you so welcome back!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Anybody here?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks Fender. Are you a regular on this thread? Do you know the guys over here?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Lisa! So good to hear from you. Glad you came back. There's been a lot of folks asking about you. Yeah we are still here doing our thing. I have the tube contest running. I see you posted over there and thought I'd find you over here. I don't think JOE or ALAN are on right now. I was going through my AOL emails on my other computer and I was checking in on the forum with my other computer and saw that you had posted. You being here will be quite a shock to some.

I hope some people get over here soon to say hello.


----------



## fenderbender420

well sorta im new but i dont miss much and i plan on being here for a long time to everyone around here are really cool and have helped me whenever i ask and also have tought me so much about my amps
its great i should have been here a long time ago


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

There you are. I looked and it said you were logged on. How you doing Martimus?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

It's good to meet you Fender. Stick around, this is a great thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you notice if Joe or Alan were on?


----------



## sccloser

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Thanks Fender. Are you a regular on this thread? Do you know the guys over here?



I'm kinda a regular as of late. Nice to meet you Lisa. I've heard a lot about you. You were missed when you were away.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

No, I didn't see them being logged on.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Thanks SC. I used to hang here almost everyday. Marty got me hooked up with some really good tubes. I bought two sets. I'm still using my first set. They are still kicking.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well maybe they will be on soon. I know they both would like to say hello.


----------



## sccloser

I see that you are partial to Teles. Those babies will rip through a Marshall JCM 800 won't they!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thrawn would like to say hello, too, but I don't think he's on right now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm here, and hello! 

I'll check back in later. I'm still sick - can't quit coughing and sneezing. I feel miserable. I hate being sick. The only thing worse than being sick is being sick without good drugs. I think I got the tube flu or something from poking around in that musty old TV repair shop the last time.


----------



## fenderbender420

+1 for good drugs lol


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah I love Telecaster's. I just bought one four months ago that is a high output guitar. It has a Super Distortion T pickup in the bridge and a Fast Track T in the neck. It's a real screamer.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Lisa, weren't you a Vox AC4TV user? I picked up one of the mini's with the 6.5" speaker this week. It sounds surprisingly good even with that tiny speaker. You can't go overboard with the volume but once you get it dialed in it's a fun little amp. For under $100 it's worth having. I was going to go throw some old glass in it and see how it does.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hey Alan! Sorry I caught you at a bad time. What do you mean about "tube flu?" What the hell is that?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

No Alan. I have the little Blackstar HT5.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

So what all has been going on?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the forum has gotten a lot bigger and the growth comes with the usual disagreements. Lately there has been some crap going on that I hope resolves itself soon.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What's Josh been doing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I would rather he tell you. Let's just say the economy sucks. He does show up every now and then. I'm sure he would like to say hello.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Yeah the forum seems to be a lot bigger than a year ago. I guess trouble comes with growth. Not every new member is going to have a good attitude. There are always those looking to cause problems.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Marty. How's that modded 2204 sound? You told me a little about it in our past correspondence. How much gain does that puppy have?


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hey Alan! Sorry I caught you at a bad time. What do you mean about "tube flu?" What the hell is that?



I got into this old TV repair shop that had been closed up for years back in July. The widow of the man who ran it gave me a B&K tube tester from the shop and a couple of caddies full of tubes. A few weeks ago I got the bright idea to take the rest of the inventory off her hands. I ended up with seven 30-gallon hefty bags full of tubes, plus four large cardboard boxes full of the smaller 7 and 9-pin tubes. There must be some mold or something I'm getting into when I go in the shop. Every time I go back in there for a couple of hours, I'm sick for a month. That's "tube flu".


----------



## MartyStrat54

You would love it, especially with your new guitar. It has both a 1987 and a high gain 2204 preamps. Wilder installed an extra 12AX7 in it. It also has a solo boost. It uses a two button foot switch to control the preamps and the solo boost. I have a real nice set of preamp tubes in it and the power tubes are Sylvania Dual Getter 6CA7's. It's as good as a 2204 can get. Solid and crunchy tone.


----------



## solarburn

Was up gangalas!?

I see Lisa made it back. Awesome!

Hey to the rest of you toobers! Hope everyones well today...get better Alan. LMAO about the be'n sick and no drugs comment! Crazee bastid!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe-I got a hold of a 1947 Zenith Console (TV, radio and phone) that was in an abandoned farm house. By the time I stripped it, I had gotten sick. It was pretty bad. It didn't go away until I took the box of stripped components out of my work room. Everything was covered in a thick dust.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I knew JOE had to get over here pretty soon. We're having a reunion!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Hello Joe. So good of you to join us.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe-I got a hold of a 1947 Zenith Console (TV, radio and phone) that was in an abandoned farm house. By the time I stripped it, I had gotten sick. It was pretty bad. It didn't go away until I took the box of stripped components out of my work room. Everything was covered in a thick dust.



Oh shit. Sounds nasty man. I guess shit like that can happen with these old treasures. Hazards of the take. Get any toobs?


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Hello Joe. So good of you to join us.



Hi my dear. So good to have you back!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Damn Alan. You must be swimming in tubes. Did you get anything good for your amps?


----------



## solarburn

He gets these huge scores lately. Amazing luck. He's found some good ones mixed in too.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Was up gangalas!?
> 
> I see Lisa made it back. Awesome!
> 
> Hey to the rest of you toobers! Hope everyones well today...get better Alan. LMAO about the be'n sick and no drugs comment! Crazee bastid!



You got that right... I'll admit it. I like cough syrup - that good kind that trances you out. Alcohol may intensify the effect (it does). If I'm sick enough to spend money going to a doctor, I want to come out of there with something a little better than the OTC stuff at Walgreens. 

The last good stuff she gave me was back earlier in the summer when I was playing guitar for the Bye Bye Birdie thing. It took a month and about 3 bottles of the good stuff to get over it completely. 

It's gotta be an allergic reaction to something. Antibiotics and steroids won't touch it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-I actually made over $300 off of that old TV. It had a separate power supply with a monstrous power tranny and two rectifier tubes (yes a twin rec). I sold the power supply to a guy who was going to use it for a big guitar amp he was building.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hi my dear. So good to have you back!



Thank you. Good to be back. This place is like my favorite neighborhood pub.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> You got that right... I'll admit it. I like cough syrup - that good kind that trances you out. Alcohol may intensify the effect (it does). If I'm sick enough to spend money going to a doctor, I want to come out of there with something a little better than the OTC stuff at Walgreens.
> 
> The last good stuff she gave me was back earlier in the summer when I was playing guitar for the Bye Bye Birdie thing. It took a month and about 3 bottles of the good stuff to get over it completely.
> 
> It's gotta be an allergic reaction to something. Antibiotics and steroids won't touch it.



Man that shits got to be funky if the biotics and roids won't help. Yeah I used to kick them medicines off back in the day too. Learned to get the most bang for the buck whether it was from the doc or otc. That's why I was having a laugh. You and me are wired the same way on that count.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Damn Alan. You must be swimming in tubes. Did you get anything good for your amps?



Yeah, I got a quad of Mullard rf2 EL34's that matched almost perfectly. I sold my only EL34 amp about a month before. Always a day late and a dollar short.

There were a few good preamp tubes, and I also scored some 7591A's that I sold to an Ampeg guy for decent $$$. Now I've got thousands of oddball tubes and nowhere to store them. I haven't even gone through them all completely yet - I'm going to take them to a couple of HAM guys I like and let them pick through them. I wish I had a truckload of 6LQ6's. The HAM guys will pay big for those.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> Thank you. Good to be back. This place is like my favorite neighborhood pub.



Luv your avatar. Such a pretty smile and you look happy. Hope things are well.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

So Alan. Are you trying to say that codine is your friend?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Man that shits got to be funky if the biotics and roids won't help. Yeah I used to kick them medicines off back in the day too. Learned to get the most bang for the buck whether it was from the doc or otc. That's why I was having a laugh. You and me are wired the same way on that count.LOL



Yeah, it's probably a good thing I never made enough money in the music business to afford the really good shit. I would have been a 20-year-old statistic. There was a guy who we let be in the band. He couldn't play for shit, but he had the best coke and pills in town. Acid and ecstasy sometimes, too. Looking back it's a miracle I lived through those years, much less remained functional.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE and ALAN-I went over to the TUBE-O-RAMA thread and left a post stating that you guys are throwing into the pot. Thank you for contributing. This is going to be the best prize ever on the forum and you guys are part of it.
> 
> Now I wish I had made those T-Shirts up.



Cool. This was a great idea Marty.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

yeah i went through another bad relationship. You know how it is? Being in a band and dating people from other bands. There's too much strain and the temptation seems to be too much for the guys I want to hang out with. I went through a lot of Scotch. If you remember, that's my main vice. I get too funky in the head when I am going steady. I feel a lot better now.


----------



## RiverRatt

Rockin_Lisa said:


> So Alan. Are you trying to say that codine is your friend?



It used to be. We grew apart years ago. I had an accident when I was 20 that resulted in losing a leg and being in the hospital for three weeks on constant morphine injections. It takes some pretty strong narcs to do me any good anymore. I've had to just make myself stay away from them (unless I'm miserably ill - sniffle).


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, it's probably a good thing I never made enough money in the music business to afford the really good shit. I would have been a 20-year-old statistic. There was a guy who we let be in the band. He couldn't play for shit, but he had the best coke and pills in town. Acid and ecstasy sometimes, too. Looking back it's a miracle I lived through those years, much less remained functional.



Yeah there's nothing worse than having a great drug connection right there at your disposal. Too damn easy to get off...all the time.

I look back and say the same thing. Amazing I didn't take just a lil' too much of one thing and get planted. Glad we both made it to here Bruther!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Luv your avatar. Such a pretty smile and you look happy. Hope things are well.



Yeah I am happy now. That picture is around three years old, but I like it a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was like Johnny Winter. I drank whiskey and popped seconal.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Glad we both made it to here Bruther!



Just a few battle scars.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn this is like old times. I think I will make me a Crown and Seven to celebrate.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Go ahead Marty. I have a scotch in hand right now. It tastes so good.


----------



## solarburn

Rockin_Lisa said:


> yeah i went through another bad relationship. You know how it is? Being in a band and dating people from other bands. There's too much strain and the temptation seems to be too much for the guys I want to hang out with. I went through a lot of Scotch. If you remember, that's my main vice. I get too funky in the head when I am going steady. I feel a lot better now.



Oh yeah. I was always game when primed. My problem now is I'm always primed regardless of scotch hehe. Guys have no defense against that drive for women. I'm trying to keep it PG but that "Rock Candy Baby" is just too much to behave and act right around. You can hope for a decent guy and I hope you find one but I tell you what I've got my hands full policing my 2 daughters with this shit. Fucking guys! I'm the dad who sees me coming and I ain't happy about it...at all. Wish me luck.


----------



## sccloser

Man, you guys are hard core. I quit drinking and carrying on years ago. Y'all are making my stomach hurt...I'm going to go drink some milk...


----------



## MartyStrat54

So Lisa. I see you are still doing good on tubes. That DSL still treating you good?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn this is like old times. I think I will make me a Crown and Seven to celebrate.



Now see Marty has my taste in drink. Crown me Marty.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Man, you guys are hard core. I quit drinking and carrying on years ago. Y'all are making my stomach hurt...I'm going to go drink some milk...



Me too. I live vicariously thru my Bro's here haha.


----------



## solarburn

Jeebus we're rolling thru the pages now...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

The DSL is rock solid. It hasn't missed a beat. I have looked at some of the newer Marshall's in several music stores. There are some nice sounding one's, but I have my tone with my DSL. Why change now?


----------



## sccloser

Lisa, you prefer the DSL over the JCM 800?


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

What are you guys playing now. Any changes?


----------



## sccloser

I'm playing the same thing since I met you a hour or so ago...lol!


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

They both get playing time. I played the 800 more a year ago. Right now, with what I am doing, the DSL is more versatile. Our sound guy gets me sounding good and that's all I am concerned with.

If I am just practicing, I like the 800.


----------



## solarburn

I'm sav'n up for a plexi or JMP like Marty's. Maybe even Marty's JMP haha!

I've got all kinds of classic tones I want to do as well as some 80's.

My DSL has some issues so I'm left playing my Monza and Night Train. Better than not playing but I've got to have my Marshall mids back. I'm addicted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got my JMP 2203 and the hot rod JCM 2204 and that pretty much took care of my amp GAS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan sold his DSL and is playing a Vintage Modern I believe. I know it uses KT66's. Pretty sure it's a VM.


----------



## sccloser

Well, I still like my 2205 but have been kinda moving towards the mkiii lately. When I hit it with the Boss GE7 in the fx loop it just does it for me.


----------



## solarburn

Yep. A VM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Joe. I bookmarked the first contest post and page number so I know where to go. We could fill three pages or more the rate we are going.


----------



## solarburn

Did you "Crown" me yet? don't feel anything yet...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey SC-Do you play your 401 very often? Is it stock with the Gold speaker?


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did you "Crown" me yet? don't feel anything yet...



Hell yeah. I made you a double. You need it. It's right on the cyber bar in front of you.


----------



## solarburn

Well peeples i need to bug out for a bit. I have a pinched nerve to ice. Its taking my right arm out too. Have to PT it starting friday. Its great getting old and finding out I can't start things without warming up first. See ya guys after while.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hell yeah. I made you a double. You need it. It's right on the cyber bar in front of you.



Just the way I like it. Thanx Marty!


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey SC-Do you play your 401 very often? Is it stock with the Gold speaker?



Not too often. I used to take it to jams once in a while but now I take the class 5 and a TS-9 clone. Last I played it was to accompany a friend who was performing at church about a month ago. 

Yeah, it is stock, speaker an all. Right now I have all jj pre's and jj el844's in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think we lost Alan.


----------



## sccloser

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well peeples i need to bug out for a bit. I have a pinched nerve to ice. Its taking my right arm out too. Have to PT it starting friday. Its great getting old and finding out I can't start things without warming up first. See ya guys after while.


I hurt my shoulders cutting some trees down a couple of years ago. Didn't know anything was wrong until a couple of hours later. DR. wanted me to have surgery and I said thank you very much and never went back! They are much better now, but I have to be careful and I had to get rid of the heavy LP's.


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

well if you guys are starting to thin out, I think I will hop out for something to eat. I'm craving Chinese and there is a good place about a mile from my place.

I'll try to get over here again soon. 

You take care of yourself Joe.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think we lost Alan.


As soon as he coughs he'll wake back up and post...


----------



## Rockin_Lisa

Bye-bye!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good bye to you Lisa. Don't be a stranger.


----------



## 61rocker

hmmm....I would do a tube post but I think everyone's a little pre occupied.....of course I missed out......story of my life....


----------



## fenderbender420

better late than never!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't let a young, good-looking blond stop you from posting. Post away.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty... Hows the contest going?


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Don't let a young, good-looking blond stop you from posting. Post away.


Well....uhh...err.......I forgot....


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty... Hows the contest going?



Well considering they have to place their entry over here on this thread, I can say it is slower than expected. If someone told me that I could have a chance to win 10, 12AX7's, I would be all over it. 

I don't know. It runs until the end of October. I would like at least 100 entries.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Marty...what is the real difference between the blackplates and later (?) grey plate tubes...I found a RCA coded '66 blackplate (I think)...that's about the time you said the tube industry started going haywire ...I think that's how you put it....were blackplates earlier tubes?.... I believe the date code is 332 626....found it at the guitar shop I go to back home for $10...my pics suck so I'm not even gonna try...to me, it's amazing what tubes people leave this guy when he does retubes....and what they buy to put in them....all I have gotten from him so far work great with good life....and I've been forced on a budget thx to a med problem that popped up....


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> As soon as he coughs he'll wake back up and post...





No I'm not comatose. Just chasin' the cheap cold medicine with tequila. It's got a little codeine in it but not enough for narcolepsy.

I went and put some old tubes in the little Vox AC4TV Mini. For a 6.5" closed-back speaker, that little amp sounds big! It definitely has the Vox vibe happening. Damn, I'm racking up the budget gear lately. First the $160 Ibanez RG and a $90 tube amp.That gives me four complete rigs - I could probably get at least one more up and going with a little time and $$$. 

Yeah Lisa, if you come back and read this, I sold my DSL50 back early in the summer and bought a Vintage Modern head from Cody (BluesRocker). We live close enough together that we made a pretty good summer of trading gear back and forth! He came up with me a 425A cabinet to go with it, too. Now I have to figure out how to get my Egnater Tweaker 15 rig back from him  I never realized how much I'd miss that little amp.

I haven't played out anywhere since June or so. I've got all my amps in a semi-circle around my computer desk so I can record or play whichever one I'm into at the time. For just rocking out, I've been favoring the VM and my old Ampeg Gemini GV-22 2x12 combo. Running them in stereo with just a little chorus and delay for some separation makes them sound HUGE. Sometimes I use the Fender HRDV instead of the Ampeg. The Ampeg still has the original 2-prong plug on it and every so often somebody accidentally hits the polarity switch and I get a jolt. I've learned to make sure it's in the right position before I pick up a guitar or it can shock the shit out of you. 

Guitar-wise, I've still got my R8 Les Paul, a MIM special run Strat with Texas Specials and a MIM Tele with Bill Lawrence pups. Now I've got the Ibanez RG with the double-locking tremolo and I've been trying to remember all my 80's hair metal stuff. I must be doing something right. My 19-year-old actually came back to my sanctuary to tell me how good it was sounding! I'm looking to score a Charvel Fusion Deluxe here pretty soon. It's a Gibson-scale guitar with a humbucker and a stacked single in the neck. It has the original Schaller Floyd Rose and a DiMarzio SuperD bridge pickup. I've been looking at one of those Fender Mustang Pawn Shop Specials, too. My first "real" electric guitar was an old 1960's Mustang in Daphne Blue. That Pawn Shop Special version is incredible, but it's really more than I have to spend right now.

Did I also mention that cough syrup makes me chatty? 

The Tele is really sweet and was a piece that I was really missing without even knowing it.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well considering they have to place their entry over here on this thread, I can say it is slower than expected. If someone told me that I could have a chance to win 10, 12AX7's, I would be all over it.
> 
> I don't know. It runs until the end of October. I would like at least 100 entries.



Damn that sucks, I figured it would be a hot item by now.. I hope that everything does pick up.. Ill give your other thread a friendly bump


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Hey Marty...what is the real difference between the blackplates and later (?) grey plate tubes...I found a RCA coded '66 blackplate (I think)...that's about the time you said the tube industry started going haywire ...I think that's how you put it....were blackplates earlier tubes?.... I believe the date code is 332 626....found it at the guitar shop I go to back home for $10...my pics suck so I'm not even gonna try...to me, it's amazing what tubes people leave this guy when he does retubes....and what they buy to put in them....all I have gotten from him so far work great with good life....and I've been forced on a budget thx to a med problem that popped up....



That's the part of buying old tubes that I like. The incredible deals that you stumble on out of the blue are the best!

You sure that's not a 322 code? That would make it a Tung-Sol. IDK for sure, but I believe RCA quit making black plate tubes around 1958. 

There are plenty of budget tubes out there that can be had way cheaper than current production. One of these days I'm going to put together a chart and group the tubes by tonal characteristics from least to most expensive. I have paid a premium for premium tubes, but the vast majority of my purchases have been well under $10 per tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Damn that sucks, I figured it would be a hot item by now.. I hope that everything does pick up.. Ill give your other thread a friendly bump



Cody, what's going on with you these days? Did you get back in school?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BTW-I guess by now you know that you missed Lisa. It's been a year since she was on the forum.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Cody, what's going on with you these days? Did you get back in school?



Yeah, I started back in August. That is why I havent been on. I never have time. I work 20+ hours a week, I have school every day from 4-8 hours a day, I have to put in 11.5 hours/ week for work study. Then on top of that I have to sleep and study..Its been busy


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> BTW-I guess by now you know that you missed Lisa. It's been a year since she was on the forum.



Yeah I saw that.. I was working.. I guess I will try to catch her next time


----------



## MartyStrat54

Black Plates were made in the early 50's and most were phased out by 1960. The exception was the Raytheon Black Plate which was produced until the beginning of 1965.

A lot of people like the RCA BP, but I like the Raytheon's better. I would think that the tube you have is a 1956 tube and not a 1966. RCA did not make a BP in 1966.

Tube coatings were always ongoing with the manufacturers. At some point, all of them started using gray coatings. Was it a cost move? I don't know.


----------



## 61rocker

I'll recheck that code...my amp is loaded up in my car tonite....(in the garage...lol), I am going to play with these guys in Horn Lake the next two nites...looking forward to it....I think we'll be good, we are trying out 2 diff bass players this week.....Playin a litte Foghat and Bad Co., Nazareth....going to break out the talkbox soon......which means I'll have to make em play some Aerosmith........so...does the plate color date it or is that a process on the metal...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, does the tube have the tube number enclosed in an octagon? If so, just remember that Tung-Sol also used this method of marking tubes as well as RCA.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RCA actually used a powder coating and Raytheon's are anodized.


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> I'll recheck that code...my amp is loaded up in my car tonite....(in the garage...lol), I am going to play with these guys in Horn Lake the next two nites...looking forward to it....I think we'll be good, we are trying out 2 diff bass players this week.....Playin a litte Foghat and Bad Co., Nazareth....going to break out the talkbox soon......which means I'll have to make em play some Aerosmith........so...does the plate color date it or is that a process on the metal...?



I used to LOVE playing Miss Misery! Heavy man, heavy!


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Also, does the tube have the tube number enclosed in an octagon? If so, just remember that Tung-Sol also used this method of marking tubes as well as RCA.


 Yep, it has the octagon near the top....looks to be a 14mm plate..just guessing...kind of tall....I'll take a closer look later in the week....there was a killer set of Tesla el34s listed on the bay last week....it got out of my price range fast....I think it wound up well over $250....they were NOS and claimed to be from a lot of 50 bought back in the 80s...my 4th Tesla to finish off my 3 is becoming hard to find...pricey....the RFT/Siemans I scored are sounding nice....


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Now I've got thousands of oddball tubes and nowhere to store them.







MartyStrat54 said:


> Well considering they have to place their entry over here on this thread, I can say it is slower than expected. If someone told me that I could have a chance to win 10, 12AX7's, I would be all over it.
> 
> I don't know. It runs until the end of October. I would like at least 100 entries.



I'd enter but as we all know, I'm a rabid tube gatherer and already have a nice little stack of NOS 12AX7's to play with. Tubes are awesome, so I hang on to any I can get my hands on :cool2:

On a tube-ish side note, I had a brief (but awesome) discussion with the head of the EE department of my school today about vacuum tubes. We were both very excited to have someone that actually knows about tubes to chat about it  And he agrees that for audio purposes, nothing beats tubes :cool2:


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I used to LOVE playing Miss Misery! Heavy man, heavy!


I saw Nazareth back about '80....they rocked.....Billy Thorpe backed them up......I love playing Nazareth, Bad Co. Aerosmith. Foreignor, Foghat....saw Foghat in 76, they rocked the house....back up Band was Boston....all for $5, Foghat had all these Fender Dual Showmans stacked everywhere....played Les Paul Jrs. and Specials....P-90s rock....


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> I'd enter but as we all know, I'm a rabid tube gatherer and already have a nice little stack of NOS 12AX7's to play with. Tubes are awesome, so I hang on to any I can get my hands on :cool2:
> 
> On a tube-ish side note, I had a brief (but awesome) discussion with the head of the EE department of my school today about vacuum tubes. We were both very excited to have someone that actually knows about tubes to chat about it  And he agrees that for audio purposes, nothing beats tubes :cool2:



Yeah, I don't have a lot of NOS glass but I do have a few. I figured it is better to get the noobs with toobs involved to get them off to a good start. So I am staying out of the contest, which we all know I would win because of my extraordinary writing skills and literary prowess.


----------



## RiverRatt

Something else that I'd like to address is being a tube roller vs. a tube collector. I do a little of both, but I'm mainly a tube roller. A collector will pay a premium for a smooth plate Telefunken with a pristine logo, yet you can get the exact same tube labeled "Fisher" for a small fraction of the price. Usually if I get one of those pristine collectable tubes, it goes on eBay to fund the purchase of 8 or 10 excellent tone tubes.

All you guys who are starting to get into tube rolling, take the time to look back at some of the tubes we've posted in this thread or go to TubeMonger and browse the 12AX7 library. 

You really need to get to know the tubes by their design characteristics, factory codes, etc. and not pay so much attention to what's printed on the tube. It may seem impossible, but pretty soon you'll see that you can spot a Philips-made tube like a Mullard or Ei at a glance. I can pick a Raytheon out of a box by the shape of the exhaust tip, or an Amperex by the exhaust tip and the look of the seams in the top. Once in awhile I'll get to browse through someone's junk tube box at a shop and I can usually at a glance tell what's worth a closer look. 

Here are a few pics... this first one is a lot of 3 Matsushita long plate D-getters that I got off eBay for $15 shipped. The tone will rival any Mullard long plate and the construction is almost identical.






A Marshall-branded Ei 12AX7. Smooth plates, so it's either a Telefunken or Ei. The characteristically phallic exhaust tip of a Philips tube along with the top seams gives it away as an Ei.






Another Matsushita long plate D getter. These usually have a really dark getter flash. One of my absolute favorite V1 tubes.






The infamous Raytheon black plate. The exhaust tip gives these away every time. Raytheon tips are always very straight and blunt. The only problem with Raytheon tubes is, once the writing is gone you have no idea if it's a JRP (military) or regular Raytheon. The JRP tubes are usually a LOT higher gain than the regular production and IMO don't have the same sweet tone in V2 as the plain Raytheons. 






A pair of pre-war Yugo Ei's. Notice the similarity with the seams and tip as the Marshall tube I listed above:






Here's a nice tip to remember. RCA tube numbers are always in an octagonal box. Problem is, so are some others. If you see one that looks like this with a vertical slash above the box, it's a Tung-Sol. Otherwise it's a safe bet that it's an RCA.






Tungsrams are always great tubes in a Marshall and can easily be identified by the small metal tag with a number embossed in it that is usually attached to one of the getter posts.






Here's a popular tube around here - the RFT! Unfortunately, this one cracked and let some air in. White residue inside glass = bad tube. Don't even try it.






GE tubes are pretty easy to spot as well. If the number looks like a military type stencil, it's a GE. Sylvania and GE also have distinctive plates on a lot of their tubes. Here are two GE's and a Raytheon beside them. Note the tall, thin exhaust tip on the GE tubes.






Lastly, here's a shot from last summer of the line-up in my DSL. The Sylvania in V3 is impossible to miss after you've seen a couple of them. These are labeled already so I won't bother naming them.


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> I saw Nazareth back about '80....they rocked.....Billy Thorpe backed them up......I love playing Nazareth, Bad Co. Aerosmith. Foreignor, Foghat....saw Foghat in 76, they rocked the house....back up Band was Boston....all for $5, Foghat had all these Fender Dual Showmans stacked everywhere....played Les Paul Jrs. and Specials....P-90s rock....



My current band still plays Bad Co and Foreignor songs. Used to play some Aerosmith and Nazareth. I saw Foghat in 91 along with Nantucket, Jackal, Skynard, etc.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Something else that I'd like to address is being a tube roller vs. a tube collector. I do a little of both, but I'm mainly a tube roller. A collector will pay a premium for a smooth plate Telefunken with a pristine logo, yet you can get the exact same tube labeled "Fisher" for a small fraction of the price.



I consider myself a tube gatherer (or hoarder). I don't spend much money at all on tubes if they look nice, I just like to have the variety and bulk of a nice box (or boxes) of odd tubes to look through and have  I also do a bit of rolling and less collecting, so I'd put Tube Gathering somewhere between a roller and a collector


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I'll recheck that code...my amp is loaded up in my car tonite....(in the garage...lol), I am going to play with these guys in Horn Lake the next two nites...looking forward to it....I think we'll be good, we are trying out 2 diff bass players this week.....Playin a litte Foghat and Bad Co., Nazareth....going to break out the talkbox soon......which means I'll have to make em play some Aerosmith........so...does the plate color date it or is that a process on the metal...?



I'll bet we know a few of the same people, man. A friend of mine uses a keyboard player from down your way who used to play with Hank, Jr. I met him a couple of times... I think his name was Billy? Cowboy? No, IIRC Cowboy was the steel player. I may be getting several people confused. It's been awhile. This is the keyboard dude.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I consider myself a tube gatherer (or hoarder). I don't spend much money at all on tubes if they look nice, I just like to have the variety and bulk of a nice box (or boxes) of odd tubes to look through and have  I also do a bit of rolling and less collecting, so I'd put Tube Gathering somewhere between a roller and a collector



Yes, we're still stuck firmly on the old hunter-gatherer rung of the evolutionary ladder. We leave the cave, drag a bunch of tubes back, leave primitive images on the cave wall (or internet forum) to commemorate the event. 

I think hoarder would describe me better. Gatherer still sounds like there is some higher purpose involved.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, we're still stuck firmly on the old hunter-gatherer rung of the evolutionary ladder. We leave the cave, drag a bunch of tubes back, leave primitive images on the cave wall (or internet forum) to commemorate the event.
> 
> I think hoarder would describe me better. Gatherer still sounds like there is some higher purpose involved.



I have my purposes for Gathering  but it's mainly for my own gratification


----------



## 61rocker

That was a great post with the pics of tubes Alan......Thx for that dude....yeah I want to get these guys to do some songs that I haven't been able to do with some recent bands....some Hagar....my band in little rock does some cool songs, but we are limited by the singer.....but we rip out a version of Ballroom Blitz that rawks....good response every gig....and Li'l Devil by The Cult....


----------



## RiverRatt

I loved Electric by the Cult. Me and the wife (then girlfriend) were driving to Memphis when I heard Li'l Devil on the radio for the first time. I stopped and bought a copy as soon as we got into town. Turned out that 2 or 3 of my close friends had done pretty much the same. 

My wife's sister lives in Little Rock but I haven't been out there in a decade or so. We see them on most major holidays anyway, and I hate that drive on I-40 from Memphis to LR. Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump for 2 solid hours. I swear that stretch of interstate ruined a car I'd just bought the last time we made the trip. It had rattles when we got home that it didn't have before.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I loved Electric by the Cult. Me and the wife (then girlfriend) were driving to Memphis when I heard Li'l Devil on the radio for the first time. I stopped and bought a copy as soon as we got into town. Turned out that 2 or 3 of my close friends had done pretty much the same.
> 
> My wife's sister lives in Little Rock but I haven't been out there in a decade or so. We see them on most major holidays anyway, and I hate that drive on I-40 from Memphis to LR. Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump for 2 solid hours. I swear that stretch of interstate ruined a car I'd just bought the last time we made the trip. It had rattles when we got home that it didn't have before.


I grew up there....it's not really a bad small city....not too big....I saw The Cult on Electric backing up Billy Idol at Starwood Ampitheatre in Nashville....great show...they had hired a bass player and the Bass Jamie something or other played rythyem guitar....very cool....Duffy played a White Falcon...I think the whole show...of course Billy Idol kicked all kinds of butt. Steve Stephen was awesome....saw The Cult on Sonic Temple...just wasn't the same...they cut the show short cuz Ian Astburry didn't think the crowd was into it.....Duffy played a Les Paul Custom most of it and a Standard some....Marshalls everywhere...I have developed a interest in Ampeg combos.....I may try to locate one...In Nashville, they would pop up on CL very reasonable....Little Rock is a small place...be funny if I knew her sister.....plz don't post...but ya neva know...and the guys in that pic look familiar...think I've seen one or two on Bandmix...I have an account on there...under what else....61rocker


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## brp

Funny to come in here and see you guys talking about Electric.
I just started listening to it last week again for the first time in about 20 years!
Had almost forgotten how great it is.
I've been playing along to a couple tracks on it since last week, good fun.

Ok, preamp tube talk:
Hey, what's the difference between a 12ax7 and 12ax7wa?

Sorry if this had been stated many times in this thread which I've no doubt it has. I can't catch up, huge thread is huge.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The WA is a military designation. Hand select, highly tested, but still a 12AX7.


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## Lowlife

Just won a batch of 7 very mixed tubes on ebay, cant wait to roll them once they get here...oh and looks like you all had fun.


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## brp

Thanks, Marty.

So NOS Sylvania 12ax7wa would be a good buy at what price then?


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## Lowlife

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

About a year ago I didn't give a rats ass about tubes. I had a tube amp, that was decent, not great but decent. Then I got my Marshall amp and started visiting this forum, and man has things changed since then.

I love the way I can sit for hours (when my GF and small kid allows time for it) and just roll various tubes, playing them loudly, softly, gently and passionately to see how and if they respond. 

I like how it's a world where i can channel all my surplus nerdyness (have loads lying around since i stopped gaming), my band may roll their eyes at me, but i know they are secretly paying attention...because frankly, it's cool.

Lastly, i really like how I'm touching history, tubes are in most contexts outdated, and yet tubes, and most especially NOS tubes tie me to my past. I scrounged my uncles basement, that dates back to my grandad, and came up with loads of sweet, new in box, Telefunkens. When I roll those, it is always with a kind thought to him and his collector attitude that I also inherited.


----------



## thrawn86

Howdy folks!
Dang, missed the chance to welcome back Lisa personally. Hey girl, good to see you again. Keep rocking. I'll be around and catch you eventually.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I hate that drive on I-40 from Memphis to LR. Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump.Bump for 2 solid hours. I swear that stretch of interstate ruined a car I'd just bought the last time we made the trip. It had rattles when we got home that it didn't have before.



Come drive in Pennsylvania sometime


----------



## rockinr0ll

OK. My tubes were micro-phonic so I have to tube roll now. I took out the stock Sovteks and the Chinese and replaced with what I had lying around. JAN 5751 in VI and JJ ECC83-S in V2 and V3. The JJ sounds very dark and the 5751 I'm not to thrilled about with what I want from my amp. So... I'm going to be buying some new tubes in the next month. I'm going to start with a EHX12AX7 in V1. 

Keep posted.


----------



## Lowlife

rockinr0ll said:


> OK. My tubes were micro-phonic so I have to tube roll now. I took out the stock Sovteks and the Chinese and replaced with what I had lying around. JAN 5751 in VI and JJ ECC83-S in V2 and V3. The JJ sounds very dark and the 5751 I'm not to thrilled about with what I want from my amp. So... I'm going to be buying some new tubes in the next month. I'm going to start with a EHX12AX7 in V1.
> 
> Keep posted.



Quite frankly i tried the EHX in V1, and i was less than thrilled...I'd go for tungsol in V1 if you want current production


----------



## rockinr0ll

I tried a Tung-Sol I never really like it. I ordered a EH and 2 Sovteks for now. I need something cheap so I can put the tubes back in my other amps.


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## MartyStrat54

The main attribute of the Tung-Sol is that they are probably the quietest CP tube, so they work well in V1. They are a little bright and in a bright amp, they can sound a little harsh.

The Preferred Series 7025 and the Northern Electric 12AX7 are good V1 tubes, but they cost more. If they can get the price down on the Northern Electric, it would be the tube I would recommend for a CP V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> Howdy folks!
> Dang, missed the chance to welcome back Lisa personally. Hey girl, good to see you again. Keep rocking. I'll be around and catch you eventually.



I put in a good word for you, Thrawn.


----------



## johnfv

*Why I AM a tube roller*



MartyStrat54 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."


I've been playing tube amps for nearly 40 years. I did have a basic understanding and I always kept my amps well maintained. I knew the basic characteristics of the most common tube types (at least knew enough to switch my Dual Rectifier to EL34s back in the mid 90s ). Almost exactly a year ago I decided that my old faithful '68 Marshall Super Trem needed to be "babied" a bit more; a google search led me here. Since then I have spent many hours rolling tubes in my amps and have learned tremendously from the experts here in this very thread. While I certainly would enjoy having some more tubes added to my small collection, more than anything I just want to express my appreciation to Marty, Alan, Joe and many others here. I thought I knew something about tube amps before, now I realize I am only beginning.... cheers!


----------



## johnfv

thrawn86 said:


> Howdy folks!
> Dang, missed the chance to welcome back Lisa personally. Hey girl, good to see you again. Keep rocking. I'll be around and catch you eventually.


I joined 9/29/10. I thought Lisa was an imaginary character in Marty's signature!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I was surfing EBAY and came across these. Look at the date. I wonder if this is a manufacture date, or date packed? I guess this proves why Peavey's still had Sylvania tubes as OE in the late 80's. These are the late production WA's I have discussed before. They are a little brittle and stiff in the V1 slot. They do make a great PI tube.


----------



## rockinr0ll

MartyStrat54 said:


> The main attribute of the Tung-Sol is that they are probably the quietest CP tube, so they work well in V1. They are a little bright and in a bright amp, they can sound a little harsh.
> 
> The Preferred Series 7025 and the Northern Electric 12AX7 are good V1 tubes, but they cost more. If they can get the price down on the Northern Electric, it would be the tube I would recommend for a CP V1.



Weird. In my amps (Marshall JMP, AVT and Hot Rod) my Tung-Sol was noisy. So much so that I prefered a Sovtek. 

I hear you about the Preffered Series I want one bad.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-I was surfing EBAY and came across these. Look at the date. I wonder if this is a manufacture date, or date packed? I guess this proves why Peavey's still had Sylvania tubes as OE in the late 80's. These are the late production WA's I have discussed before. They are a little brittle and stiff in the V1 slot. They do make a great PI tube.



I have two JAN 6189W philips tubes dated 9/87.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-I was surfing EBAY and came across these. Look at the date. I wonder if this is a manufacture date, or date packed? I guess this proves why Peavey's still had Sylvania tubes as OE in the late 80's. These are the late production WA's I have discussed before. They are a little brittle and stiff in the V1 slot. They do make a great PI tube.



Yeah, the date is probably correct, but they were Sylvania in name only. I agree with you 100% on this one. The tone on the last of the Philips/Sylvania/ECG tubes was IMO probably worse than most current production stuff. They are still rugged and useful in applications where tone isn't an issue, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to purchase any.

I have noticed something strange about the military boxes, specifically the 5751's that I came into awhile back. The labels all said "Raytheon" and were dated at around 1958 IIRC. I noticed that one of the labels was starting to flake off on a box that had a Sylvania in it. Sure enough, there was a second label under the first with a date code a year or two earlier that listed Sylvania as the manufacturer. I've wondered about that. I can only assume that Raytheon was contracted to supply a certain amount of tubes and had to source some from Sylvania and GE to meet the demand. Even though every box said Raytheon on it, there wasn't a single Raytheon in the bunch. Those two 5751's I sent you awhile back are from that batch. Yours might be re-labeled too.


----------



## RiverRatt

rockinr0ll said:


> OK. My tubes were micro-phonic so I have to tube roll now. I took out the stock Sovteks and the Chinese and replaced with what I had lying around. JAN 5751 in VI and JJ ECC83-S in V2 and V3. The JJ sounds very dark and the 5751 I'm not to thrilled about with what I want from my amp. So... I'm going to be buying some new tubes in the next month. I'm going to start with a EHX12AX7 in V1.
> 
> Keep posted.



I've never liked a lower gain tube in V1 of a Marshall. Some people talk about putting a really low-gainer in there to tame the tone, but IMO it kills the tone. It doesn't sound like a Marshall anymore. Try a Shuguang before you go with the Russian stuff - they are cheap and I think they sound better. I've never liked the EH preamp tubes. If I were running CP tubes I'd go Shuguang in V1 and Tung-Sol in V2.


----------



## paul-e-mann

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Because tube rolling is fun!!!


----------



## rockinr0ll

RiverRatt said:


> I've never liked a lower gain tube in V1 of a Marshall. Some people talk about putting a really low-gainer in there to tame the tone, but IMO it kills the tone. It doesn't sound like a Marshall anymore. Try a Shuguang before you go with the Russian stuff - they are cheap and I think they sound better. I've never liked the EH preamp tubes. If I were running CP tubes I'd go Shuguang in V1 and Tung-Sol in V2.



I'm pretty sure the tube you are talking about is currently the relabled Groove Tube GT-12AX7-C. Great sounding tube until I dropped it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Shuguang's are available from several relabelers. Some that are relabeled are hand select and extra testing. This boost the price, but at least you know you are getting a good one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockinr0ll said:


> Weird. In my amps (Marshall JMP, AVT and Hot Rod) my Tung-Sol was noisy.



You probably got as bad one which is rare as according to the Tube Store, the Tung-Sol has the lowest failure rate.


----------



## MM54

I had a CP Tung-sol in my amp for about a week before it went microphonic.


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## MartyStrat54

Wow! When I signed on a little bit ago, the Preamp Tube thread was in the #1 slot. It's been a while since I've seen that.

*And I've been informed that this is also the 11,000 post.*


----------



## sccloser

I was going for the 11,000th post...looks like I got 11,001st.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, the date is probably correct, but they were Sylvania in name only. I agree with you 100% on this one. The tone on the last of the Philips/Sylvania/ECG tubes was IMO probably worse than most current production stuff. They are still rugged and useful in applications where tone isn't an issue, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to purchase any.
> 
> I have noticed something strange about the military boxes, specifically the 5751's that I came into awhile back. The labels all said "Raytheon" and were dated at around 1958 IIRC. I noticed that one of the labels was starting to flake off on a box that had a Sylvania in it. Sure enough, there was a second label under the first with a date code a year or two earlier that listed Sylvania as the manufacturer. I've wondered about that. I can only assume that Raytheon was contracted to supply a certain amount of tubes and had to source some from Sylvania and GE to meet the demand. Even though every box said Raytheon on it, there wasn't a single Raytheon in the bunch. Those two 5751's I sent you awhile back are from that batch. Yours might be re-labeled too.



On my 6189's the label is printed directly onto the box.


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## MartyStrat54

Alan-You sent me two tubes, right? One was a 5751 and the other was an IEC Mullard. The Mullard was an ECC83 wasn't it?

Also, you were right about the labeling on the 5751 tube box. It has been relabeled.


----------



## RiverRatt

rockinr0ll said:


> I'm pretty sure the tube you are talking about is currently the relabled Groove Tube GT-12AX7-C. Great sounding tube until I dropped it!



Yeah, that's a Shuguang. I've got a few lying around. I use them when I'm selling an amp... they sound pretty good and they are cheap. No need to part with my old glass unless I have to.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-You sent me two tubes, right? One was a 5751 and the other was an IEC Mullard. The Mullard was an ECC83 wasn't it?
> 
> Also, you were right about the labeling on the 5751 tube box. It has been relabeled.



Okay, I thought they were both 5751's. You're right. I was probably thinking of Joe. He liked the 5751 in the Monza and wanted another. I'm getting pretty low on those. This one in the Tube Roller prize is probably the last one I'll sell unless I get more.

I found a couple of green-print Sylvania 5751's the other day but didn't ask about them. They weren't triple mica - just the standard gray-plate Sylvania look. Ever had any experience with these? I know the green print 12AX7's can be decent tone tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got a hold of a sleeve of five green label Sylvania's from 1959. All but one was sold as a V1 tube. They ain't bad. We get spoiled on the fancy Euro stuff, but as I said on here before, Sylvania's were regarded "over" RCA for many years. In fact, RCA really didn't make their best tubes for very long.

The two mica 5751 SYL is a little brighter sounding IIRC. The construction isn't as stiff as a 3 mica.


----------



## Bieling3

MartyStrat54 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."




Besides the fact that I have a 6100 LM coming and subsequently am going to have to up my stock of tubes to be prepared, I want to become a tube roller for the simple fact that I have noticed first hand the vast difference in quality (noise) and sound (equalization) when switching out tubes during normal maintenance. This difference has a far greater impact than switching power tubes--for the most part--in the newer Marshall amps that I prefer. Almost as much as changing out a speaker (almost). I'd love the opportunity to try a selection of preamp tubes out to better familiarize myself with the different brands and their inherent properties.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got a hold of a sleeve of five green label Sylvania's from 1959. All but one was sold as a V1 tube. They ain't bad. We get spoiled on the fancy Euro stuff, but as I said on here before, Sylvania's were regarded "over" RCA for many years. In fact, RCA really didn't make their best tubes for very long.
> 
> The two mica 5751 SYL is a little brighter sounding IIRC. The construction isn't as stiff as a 3 mica.



I said before, I'm running an all-Sylvania line-up in my Hot Rod Deville. Got an old 5751 in V1, JHS-Sylvania black plate in V2 and a green print 12AX7 in V3. The power tubes are the later 1960's short bottle Sylvania 6L6GC's. They sound better than my RCA black plates. I do have three new pairs of old 6L6GC's to run through it and two of them are different style Sylvanias.

I might give those green label 5751's a try. The Deville can be a little dark but it's got that lush Fender dirty/clean tone in spades. Then there's the Ampeg. I was thinking big bottle Sylvania 6L6GC's for it. They are very close in construction to the 7027A's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bieling3 said:


> Besides the fact that I have a 6100 LM coming and subsequently am going to have to up my stock of tubes to be prepared, I want to become a tube roller for the simple fact that I have noticed first hand the vast difference in quality (noise) and sound (equalization) when switching out tubes during normal maintenance. This difference has a far greater impact than switching power tubes--for the most part--in the newer Marshall amps that I prefer. Almost as much as changing out a speaker (almost). I'd love the opportunity to try a selection of preamp tubes out to better familiarize myself with the different brands and their inherent properties.



I'm glad to see so many people showing an interest in the contest. Some lucky winner is going to be amazed at the difference in tone, or somebody who knows good tubes is going to be very, very happy.


----------



## Bieling3

RiverRatt said:


> I'm glad to see so many people showing an interest in the contest.


Its exactly the kinda thing the forum needs right now. Brilliant.


----------



## eljeffebrown

Bieling3 said:


> Its exactly the kinda thing the forum needs right now. Brilliant.



I absolutely agree. also, if you haven't noticed, all our (forum) trouble makers have quieted down, I wonder why............


----------



## MartyStrat54

Someone got a good buy. All 13 tubes out of a Curtis-Mathes console for $15.01. This included two, 12AX7's (Made in Holland) and two, RCA 6BQ5/EL84's. Also an EZ81/6CA4 REC tube.

I had it on "save," but forgot to bid. Just a little over a buck a piece.


----------



## RiverRatt

I never see that stuff go that low. I would have been all over that. I picked up a Heathkit HAM receiver at a yard sale today for $25 on a gamble. Turns out it doesn't have a useful tube in it, but they do sell for considerably more than $25 on eBay. I may try to flip it locally.

If you search for Radio Shack gear, once in awhile you'll turn up one of their 1960's MIJ amplifiers/preamplifiers. They are absolutely awesome gear and usually are full of 6BQ5's and 12AX7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have an amp that I bought over four years ago from a website store out of Denver. It was a modded RCA model that was very popular. Raw chassis that had been converted with RCA inputs and binding post outputs. Used a 5U4GB rec tube. Twin OPT's. Would run a 4 ohm load. The seller claimed the amp came to him w/o the tubes in it, but he "guessed" what they were. He then claimed the amp worked and this was backed up by test data such as watts per channel and THD. Well, I got the amp and I could not get it to work. I tried to get my money back, but the seller turned out to be an A1 asshole. I still do not know what goes in it. In its stock form it used 6EU6's, but someone upgraded some of the slots to 12AX7's. There is one slot that is still a mystery to me. I never did even check for heater voltage to see if it was 6.3 or 12.6. It is just sitting collecting dust. I paid $225 for it as a working HiFi amp.

*BURN!*


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## MartyStrat54

This was an EL84 amp. Why would anyone "mod" the front end of a HiFi amp for more gain?


----------



## RiverRatt

Around here we call that dumbassedness. How in the hell do you guess what tube goes in a circuit? Someone who knows their shit could get a general idea by the heaters and what was tied to which pin, but that only narrows it down to a few hundred possibilities.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sure would like to have that amp up and running. I have a little 20WPC HiFi amp. I run a solid state sub amp on a 12-inch sub and then everything above 100Hz is tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I never got into the hifi amps, but I'm sure some of the antique radio forums could help you find the schematic for that amp and help you get it back to specs. RCA info is everywhere. I've got a nice Zenith console with a 2x6BQ5 stereo amplifier and 12AX7 preamp in it. IIRC it uses one side of the 12AX7 for each preamp stage. It's not terribly high-powered but it's a solid design. I've been meaning to pull it and toss the console but it's in such good shape. The guy who gave it to me said his mother won it in a raffle in the 1950's. I hate to fuck up someone's mother's prize stereo. It's all maple and tweed - a really nice little system.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On another note. Many years ago, I was going to build a custom 40WPC HiFi power amp. I had a bunch of custom transformers wound for me in Russia and they weren't cheap. I was new to some of the basics of how amps should be built. I had the power transformers wound to put out the perfect plate voltage for EL84's. Only problem is that once rectified, the voltage goes up by a factor of between 1.2 and 1.4. I forgot or didn't know about this. So depending on the power supply, this could be 396VDC to 462VDC. Perfect for a 5881 or 6L6GC. I think I have four of these bad boys and I have some real nice OPT's as well, but they only have a 40 watt rating. All of these I am talking about are toroidal transformers. More stuff just collecting dust. If I tried to sell them on EBAY, I'd loose my ass.


----------



## RiverRatt

A 40-watt OT could work well with 5881's or even 6L6's if the amp isn't too aggressive. What's the impedance on the OT's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to a huge schematics website and they had what I was looking for. All the original pre tubes were 6EU6's. When I got the amp, the seller stated that all the slots were 12AX7's. Someone added another preamp tube. I am assuming that meant another gain stage for each side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd have to go and look Joe. Hey, I could upgrade my DSL401 with a toroidal OPT.

EDIT-Alan, not Joe.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went to a huge schematics website and they had what I was looking for. All the original pre tubes were 6EU6's. When I got the amp, the seller stated that all the slots were 12AX7's. Someone added another preamp tube. I am assuming that meant another gain stage for each side.



It sounds like it could have been an attempted guitar amp conversion. Most of those amps were just a gain stage away from being a classic guitar circuit.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'd have to go and look Joe. Hey, I could upgrade my DSL401 with a toroidal OPT.



Uhhh... I'm the one who has had muy tequila tonight. I'm Alan. Joe hasn't been here for awhile. 

Just messin' with you. God knows I can't even remember my own name most days.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just won four mint NEC 12AD7's for $49 and free shipping. What a deal. I think all of the "super" 12AX7's were made in Japan. I have never found an American made 12AD7, 12DF7, 12DM7, or 12DT7. 

The 12AD7's kick ass in V1 of a Fender.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry about that. I put an "edit" up there to show I am spacing out.

Anyway, most people used old mono amps like a Bogen to convert to a guitar amp. I guess someone could have wanted a stereo guitar amp, but that's a big maybe.


----------



## RiverRatt

That Bogen turntable I got last year was one of the best built pieces of equipment I've ever bought. It came with a 5881 power section and 6SN7 pre's and a 5U4 rectifier. I've still got the Stancor OT from it and it works perfectly. I also still have the PT but it had a huge puddle of what looked like melted beeswax underneath it on the chassis. The OT is solid, though. I put it in my Ampeg long enough to make sure it worked. It did, and sounded pretty good too. Here's a pic of it.






You want to venture a guess as to why this thing had 250 and 500 ohm taps?


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys ever heard of an 8233? I've got eight Mullard NOS and no idea what they are good for. I think they are twin triodes but about twice as large as a 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

AKA E55L. Tube Store is selling them for $40 a pop. That means they are used in audio applications.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are called a grid frame power pentode. Apparently one of those tubes made with the special constructed wire frame screen. They look to be worth some dough, Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. Maybe I can at least break even on this mess 

It is so hard figuring out what all these numbers are. I'm too used to having the limited guitar audio range to select from. I've got 1-volt, 3v, 17v, 43v, you name it, they made a version of it. Need any 25V6 tubes? Looks just like a 6V6. You could probably fit a 25v filament transformer on a 5E3 and get some good use out of them!

Don't you love those kinda tube listings on eBay? The ones that are all about this tube being a perfect substitution for those expensive 12AX7's. All you have to do is rewire all the 9-pin sockets. Sorry, that doesn't interest me in the least.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just won four mint NEC 12AD7's for $49 and free shipping. What a deal. I think all of the "super" 12AX7's were made in Japan. I have never found an American made 12AD7, 12DF7, 12DM7, or 12DT7.
> 
> The 12AD7's kick ass in V1 of a Fender.



I thought the 12AD7's where some hybrid tube, like one part 12ax7 and 1 part 12au7...if thats true does that really sound good in a fender amp? why?


----------



## carlocki

here for an help...http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/33363-jcm-900-reapair.html


----------



## MM54

I build a really nice hi-fi poweramp a while ago, it's probably been at least a year by now, it ran KT77's, Class A ultralinear push-pull. Front end is two 12AU7's, one's half a slight gain stage, half a cathode-follower driving the other, which was the PI. Natually, all the tubes are balanced to hell and the front-end is NOS. I think it was somewhere around 40W/Ch, but I used 60W OT's and a MASSIVE PT with two 5A filament windings and a 1A HT winding. The overspec'ed transformers definitely help prevent any sort of distortion and stay quite cool. The first time I played music through it, it was in my old shop (this was before I moved) plugged into a pair of JBL L112's I had just repaired the speakers in. I've never heard anything like it, the sounds was godly. 

Since that day (actually, since the day I got paid and it left my house forever) I've wanted to build that same amp again for my own use and include an internal phono preamp, but alas I can't really afford to it seems


----------



## johnfv

Speaking of nice vintage hifi gear, I had a Bogen mono amp that I bought at a garage sale when I was like 13. With a friends help I put it in a crude "Marshall style" plywood cab. I have no idea what tubes were in it but I remember it sounded pretty darn good. I gave it away when my family moved and we were short on space. What hurts even more, my dad built the Dynaco stereo system (and of course there was a MASSIVE piece of furniture it went in). I don't remember the preamp model but the amp was the ST 70.  I used that for my stereo through high school. Somehow the amp and a Yamaha acoustic guitar vanished during a move in my college years, the ones that got away...


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Speaking of nice vintage hifi gear, I had a Bogen mono amp that I bought at a garage sale when I was like 13. With a friends help I put it in a crude "Marshall style" plywood cab. I have no idea what tubes were in it but I remember it sounded pretty darn good. I gave it away when my family moved and we were short on space. What hurts even more, my dad built the Dynaco stereo system (and of course there was a MASSIVE piece of furniture it went in). I don't remember the preamp model but the amp was the ST 70.  I used that for my stereo through high school. Somehow the amp and a Yamaha acoustic guitar vanished during a move in my college years, the ones that got away...



If I see anything with Bogen on it and tubes in it, I'm going to buy it. Their older stuff was built better than mil-spec gear. They used great iron, too. I've still got the carcass of that one I was talking about in the garage. I think it still has the PT and choke on the chassis.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bogens used 7868 in the 30 and 100 watt amps. They used 6L6GC's in the 50 watt amp.

Every Bogen I bought that had tubes in it were RCA's and the 12AX7's were Mullards.

They are actually making a CP 7868, but the pins are thicker. Once you use them, a NOS tube will be loose. I still have six to eight 7868's. They are always a good seller on EBAY.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Hey tubers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> I thought the 12AD7's where some hybrid tube, like one part 12ax7 and 1 part 12au7...if thats true does that really sound good in a fender amp? why?



That's a 12DW7 you are thinking of. The 12AD7 is a non-microphonic, low noise sub for a 12AX7. Sort of like a better 7025. Some Fenders came from the factory with 7025's in V1, so the 12AD7 is a good substitute. The extra low noise floor really makes for a clean, pristine sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

carlocki said:


> here for an help...http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/33363-jcm-900-reapair.html



I posted on your thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Bogens used 7868 in the 30 and 100 watt amps. They used 6L6GC's in the 50 watt amp.
> 
> Every Bogen I bought that had tubes in it were RCA's and the 12AX7's were Mullards.
> 
> They are actually making a CP 7868, but the pins are thicker. Once you use them, a NOS tube will be loose. I still have six to eight 7868's. They are always a good seller on EBAY.



The Bogen turntable had a 5881 power section. These are the tubes I pulled from it. The octal pre's are 6SL7's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had to go back to the Dr. again today. I still feel like shit. Fluid in the lungs & sinuses, a deep cough, legs are really swollen, and I feel like I've been in a car wreck. 

Anyway, call me on it if I start getting weird. I'm on some pretty powerful stuff tonight and it's hard to think through. I shouldn't be on here probably but I'm about as comfortable with the computer as without and I don't do much TV.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bogen was located real close to the RCA tube factory in New Jersey. Of course, there are exceptions to what tubes are going to be in a Bogen. Those brown base tubes tells me it was a lot older piece of gear than what I have gotten a hold of.

I was actually referring to the mono PA amps that everyone hot rodded into a guitar amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Bogen was located real close to the RCA tube factory in New Jersey. Of course, there are exceptions to what tubes are going to be in a Bogen. Those brown base tubes tells me it was a lot older piece of gear than what I have gotten a hold of.
> 
> I was actually referring to the mono PA amps that everyone hot rodded into a guitar amp.



Yeah, mine was probably an early 1950's unit. I don't think the 5881 came out until 1950 so it has to be a few years older than that. I usually only see Bogen hifi gear around here - I don't think I've ever seen a PA system.

Check that.. I do know where a Bogen PA amp is, but it's solid-state.


----------



## johnfv

My Bogen amp was old enough to be a mono hifi rig - I do remember that much...


----------



## MartyStrat54

If it had octal preamp tubes (6SL7's), that tells me early 50's at least. The 12AX7 came out in 1947, but manufactures stuck to their proven circuits and there were a lot of 6SL7's available. I really do not know when the 12AX7 became more popular than the 6SL7. I would say by the mid-50's for sure.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I'm reading this right... doesn't that Tung-Sol 5881 on the left have a date code of 1956?


----------



## rokcabilly

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Awesome contest, Marty. Thanks for this opportunity to get some NOS tubes to roll. 

I just bought a Raytheon Long Blackplate 12ax7 from Marty a couple of weeks ago, and on Marty's suggestion, I put it in V1 of my 50 watt MKIII. I was very pleasantly surprised at what it did for my my tone. I have a few other preamp tubes, but they are all CP. They are a JJ, an EH and a TungSol. I love rolling them to see what I can get out of the amp, but there's only so much I can do with what I've got. I'd really like to try more tubes, but hard times don't allow me to afford the luxury of putting NOS preamp tubes in my amp. I almost broke the bank to get that Raytheon, but I had to do it, and boy am I glad I did. Best of luck to all who enter this contest, but I hope I can win this thing, and get lost in hours of tube rolling shenanigans! I love my Marshall, and the fact that I can manipulate it's tone in more ways than just turning her knobs! 

Thanks Again!


----------



## solarburn

5K Mud Duh Fuk Cuzzz!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hzTzmvhRuQ]Ac/Dc- Have a Drink On Me - YouTube[/ame]

TOOBS


----------



## eljeffebrown

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 5K Mud Duh Fuk Cuzzz!
> 
> Ac/Dc- Have a Drink On Me - YouTube
> 
> TOOBS



Congrats Joe! 5grand, you've been here too long brother!


----------



## solarburn

You guyz keep me coming back man!


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah hell, you went over 5K and I passed 4K last night and I didn't notice any of it! Congrats, bro!!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Ah hell, you went over 5K and I passed 4K last night and I didn't notice any of it! Congrats, bro!!



Oh shit you too!LOL


----------



## thrawn86

cheers to you both


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Bogens used 7868 in the 30 and 100 watt amps. They used 6L6GC's in the 50 watt amp.
> 
> Every Bogen I bought that had tubes in it were RCA's and the 12AX7's were Mullards.
> 
> They are actually making a CP 7868, but the pins are thicker. Once you use them, a NOS tube will be loose. I still have six to eight 7868's. They are always a good seller on EBAY.



I have a 7868, I want to say it's a Sylvania (if memory serves me right, and I'm pretty sure it is). The Novar socket on my tube tester was completely loose when I went to test it, but I got it tightened back up and it's a good tube. The problem is that I don't think a single 7868 tube is worth much at all.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh you could sell it, but you would get more for a matched pair.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 5K Mud Duh Fuk Cuzzz! TOOBS



I knew you were getting close when I looked last night. Good for you. You are truly a senior member.

SolarBurn-5,000 Posts!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Ah hell, you went over 5K and I passed 4K last night and I didn't notice any of it! Congrats, bro!!



Wow, that's wild that Joe and you both rolled over at about the same time.

Congratulations!

RiverRatt-4,000 Posts!


----------



## brp

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on some NOS from Marty for my Vox NT, as suggested by Joe.

I've been researching as much as I can before placing an order. I've picked up that it is recommended to use CP tube for PI to save money with essentially the same result.

So should I really be getting NOS RFT's for BOTH preamp slots if v2 is the PI?
Would that be a waste of the 2nd RFT? If I could use something CP with the same result, I could use that extra money to outfit my other amp with NOS as well.
Joe and/or Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think I'm reading this right... doesn't that Tung-Sol 5881 on the left have a date code of 1956?



That's what it looks like. As I said, just because the new 9 Pins were out, a lot of companies had product that were designed with all octal tubes.

Wouldn't you like to have an JCM 2203 with two 6SL7's for the gain stages and a 12AX7 for the TS/CF and PI? I would. Those octal preamp tubes have a very distinct tone. And isn't it funny that the octals had very large plates and it was very rare to have any microphonics problem. I wonder why that was?


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp-You do not need a NOS for the PI. We all use NOS, because we have a lot of NOS tubes. However, I just posted some info on another thread about the PI. I state that V1 is the most important tube, but the PI is probably the second most important tube, due to what functions it has to perform. Everyone here will testify that rolling tubes in the PI slot has its rewards.


----------



## brp

Thanks, I appreciate the info as always.

Might be worth me getting a NOS then if only for academic purposes.

However, perhaps I should get another brand of NOS 12ax7 than the RFT that's more suited for the PI, not only for economic reasoning but so that I'd have a different NOS tube to roll around and get to know, academic and personal preference etc.

I'll await Joe's input here before deciding as he's rolled many tubes in this same amp, but if you Marty (or anyone else) have a suggestion or advice regarding this.... all input welcome and appreciated...

I'm going to be buying very soon (this coming week..). The not knowing what I'm missing and reading all of you guys post the virtues of NOS is really getting to me lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I mailed out three orders to Australia on the same date of 9/21. Today, I got notice that one order had a bad Raytheon Black Plate. I am sending a replacement, but the shipping is $30. Ouch!

I remember posting here a long time ago making the statement that I only sold to the USA. Then I started doing Mexico and Canada. Then Taiwan and Hong Kong and then the next thing you know, Australia.


----------



## brp

Don't stop to Canada! It's only $4 shipping*  

(*according to Tubemonger and a couple ebay sellers I've dealt with)


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I mailed out three orders to Australia on the same date of 9/21. Today, I got notice that one order had a bad Raytheon Black Plate (hum problem). I am sending a replacement, but the shipping is $30. Ouch!
> 
> I remember posting here a long time ago making the statement that I only sold to the USA. Then I started doing Mexico and Canada. Then Taiwan and Hong Kong and then the next thing you know, Australia.



I haven't done many international deals, but the ones I have done have gone very smoothly. I've got eight pairs of 6P3S tubes on the way from Russia right now. The seller is very communicative and has already shipped the tubes. I'm thinking about selling a few of these to help with finances. I'm just afraid to speculate too much. I would have never thought that DSL's would have taken such a price hit over the last couple of years. This market is crazy. Just as an example, I'll see an item exactly like one that I have for sale, I'll list it on eBay or Craigslist and do good to get half of what the other item sold for. There's no consistency at all.

Your example with the Raytheon is exactly why I don't usually sell internationally. The times I have done it, it's been known good and tested tubes that were sold as-is.


----------



## sccloser

My buddy bought this little Behringer powered mixer for $20 not working. I opened it up to take a look see inside. Had a 22ohm resistor, which I think is a biasing resistor in the power amp output, that was fried. I swapped it out (and the one it was paired with), in hopes that that would fix it. Less than 50 cents for parts. Hooked it back up, got some static, then some smoke...fried it again. Looks like the fried resistor is a symptom of another problem and not the problem itself. Sucks because you can't find schematics for these Behringers and I'm not real good with this stuff anyway.

Anyway, that was my excitement today. Gamecocks lost. Bad day.

I did get an offer for some tubes though, have to check that out.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I mailed out three orders to Australia on the same date of 9/21. Today, I got notice that one order had a bad Raytheon Black Plate (hum problem). I am sending a replacement, but the shipping is $30. Ouch!
> 
> I remember posting here a long time ago making the statement that I only sold to the USA. Then I started doing Mexico and Canada. Then Taiwan and Hong Kong and then the next thing you know, Australia.


 

Marty, I'm just asking but, how do you know if your tube had noise or if his electronics may have been the problem? Did the buyer provide decent proof or is sending it back? I am like RiverRatt and would try to stay away from overseas selling. Couldn't you put insurance on the item? I just want to know as much as possible on dealing with international stuff. Thank you.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Well guys, finally got all the caps sorted out in the B&K 700, and the meter is still deflecting to the left. Crap!

Any ideas???

PS- Congrats on the miles stones guys!

Alan 5K
Joe 4K
A 100 pages of Boobs and not noobs


----------



## MartyStrat54

Can you believe that the BooB thread is still alive and kicking? I guess people like to gawk.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can you believe that the BooB thread is still alive and kicking? I guess people like to gawk.



I know I do! 

And there are some cool guys that hang out there as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Funny thing is, it is the "most popular" thread on the Backstage (After Hours) I believe and it never did anyone any harm or cause any violent outbreaks among forum members.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Boobs have that affect on people. 

I'm glad thins have calmed down in there somewhat. All the infighting was getting old.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you read that one post of mine, it was like 20 P and R guys versus 15 to 20 other guys. This was messing it up for us all. Now I still think there is some ill feelings amongst these guys. However, it has chilled out some compared to several weeks ago.

Adwex has hinted that the P and R topics will be banned. That doesn't bother me one bit.


----------



## sccloser

So, are you saying that here in a free country that people with at least one thing in common (Marshall amps) were getting all bent out of shape over some p and r discussions that they were free to read, respond or simply ignore? 

I've seen a few of those, and I read a few of those. I even posted a few times. Never got mad at anyone. Of course, I tried not to insult anyone either. With p and r stuff, you generally aren't going to change anyone's mind, so make your point, let them make their point, then let it go. 

Oh, well, glad the dust is settling down now. 

Tubes don't care about such matters. Their owners set their bias....OK, that was bad...


----------



## Marshall Mann

I think there is an uneasy peace right now. But I know we lost a half a dozen or so members in the process. Some I was close with. 

I'm torn about the P&R thing. My personal feeling is that this is not the place for those kind of topics. It causes nothing but hard feelings between members, and divides the members on the forum right down the middle every time a new thread comes up. But I also feel strongly in the freedom of speech we are allowed here. I just stay away from the threads I dont want to see. I wish it was that easy for everyone else.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> So, are you saying that here in a free country that people with at least one thing in common (Marshall amps) were getting all bent out of shape over some p and r discussions that they were free to read, respond or simply ignore?
> 
> I've seen a few of those, and I read a few of those. I even posted a few times. Never got mad at anyone. Of course, I tried not to insult anyone either. With p and r stuff, you generally aren't going to change anyone's mind, so make your point, let them make their point, then let it go.
> 
> Oh, well, glad the dust is settling down now.
> 
> Tubes don't care about such matters. Their owners set their bias....OK, that was bad...



I thought it was pretty good Vic!


----------



## sccloser

I just peeked in at the backstage...still some p and r arguments going on. 

Anyway, I felt no need to jump in...


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I just peeked in at the backstage...still some p and r arguments going on.
> 
> Anyway, I felt no need to jump in...



Freedom of choice, its what you've got...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVGINIsLnqU&ob=av2e]Devo - Freedom Of Choice (Video) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on some NOS from Marty for my Vox NT, as suggested by Joe.
> 
> I've been researching as much as I can before placing an order. I've picked up that it is recommended to use CP tube for PI to save money with essentially the same result.
> 
> So should I really be getting NOS RFT's for BOTH preamp slots if v2 is the PI?
> Would that be a waste of the 2nd RFT? If I could use something CP with the same result, I could use that extra money to outfit my other amp with NOS as well.
> Joe and/or Marty?



I believe 2 RFT 12Ax7's were too much of a good thing. Plus you have to remember I have the RFT EL84's too so I'm really warming the amp up overall. I would save money on the second RFT 12AX7 and use it for the RFT EL84's.


----------



## sccloser

That must be a new(er) Devo Vid...I don't recall seeing that before.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> That must be a new(er) Devo Vid...I don't recall seeing that before.



I believe it was somewhere around 1983 or so. 

I know a local band here was covering it by 1986.


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I believe 2 RFT 12Ax7's were too much of a good thing. Plus you have to remember I have the RFT EL84's too so I'm really warming the amp up overall. I would save money on the second RFT 12AX7 and use it for the RFT EL84's.



I'm getting the RFT EL84's regardless.
I'll have a CP JJ 12ax7 if I put the $ from the other RFT 12AX7 into NOS tubes for my Blackheart. I can put the JJ from the Blackheart in the PI of the NT.

Would/could you recommend something NOS for the NT PI that would noticably improve or would the CP JJ suffice?


----------



## sccloser

Anyone have tube suggestions for a Class 5 combo? Including el84 suggestions...


----------



## sccloser

I just searched back through the thread. I asked this same question a month ago, no suggestions. Marty asked if I was looking for cp or NOS. Either. Probably will go NOS, though, it's only 3 tubes...haha! I just thought someone had rolled a few through a class 5 already. It is a pita to get to the tubes in these little suckers.


----------



## johnfv

Never even glanced at "the backstage" myself. Sounds like I should keep it that way... Although I am a bit intrigued by the possibility of boobs


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I'm getting the RFT EL84's regardless.
> I'll have a CP JJ 12ax7 if I put the $ from the other RFT 12AX7 into NOS tubes for my Blackheart. I can put the JJ from the Blackheart in the PI of the NT.
> 
> Would/could you recommend something NOS for the NT PI that would noticably improve or would the CP JJ suffice?



I think a nice neutral or transparent tube like and RCA 12AX7A/7025 something that doesn't have a strong character and is clean. This really lets the RFT 12AX7 shine in the tone slot. Try what you have on hand and see but after rolling quite a few in the PI with the RFT in the tone slot it became apparent that any tube with a specific voicing of its own would take away from the "meat" tone of the RFT. The cleaner the PI tube is the better I think...at least to my ears. I like the voicing of the RFT 12AX7 in the NT. Sounds cool. Makes me want to play blues/rock all day long.

Try the JJ and see. Its a darker sounding tube so it may dull some of the dynamics of the RFT or even become redundant because you have 2 tubes that are dark in character plus the EL84's too. I would try it and see though. Speculation is a waste of time if you have the tubes already. Go ahead and see if it dulls the amp up or not...


----------



## brp

The thing is, I kinda need to order one from Marty at the same time that I get everything else I need from him. Unless the JJ would be ideal, so I guess that's what I was hoping someone would be able to say is the case.

Maybe he has the RCA you suggest or has something else he would recommend in this slot.
Totally without any extra tubes here, until I get some from him....
I'd like to get something other than a second RFT more for the sake of having something different, to get to know different tubes etc.
He recommended a EI marked RCA 12ax7 for my Blackheart's preamp slot and a "stout Sylvania" 12ax7 for it's powertube. So something different than either of these that would suit the NT's PI slot that is economical would be ideal.
If I get those 2 for the Blackheart, I'll have it's stock CP JJ's to play around with. But if they turn out to be a bad choice and I didn't get a tube for the NT's PI, I'll have nothing else to put in there. Sounds like I should get something for the PI and then I'll at least have it and the JJ to experiment with in that slot.

Sorry guys, total toob noob here trying to make the right decision for first NOS purchase that won't waste resources ($) and at the same time maximize academic value.
Please bear with me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a few 7025's in my inventory. They were real popular about two years ago. However, I have those 12AD7's coming in and they are better than a 7025. Most people would use them in the phono stage or V1, as they have very low noise.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey ALAN-Cream on these!

GENALEX TUBES KT66 KT-66 VINTAGE ENGLAND MADE FOR G.E. | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, $170 now with two days and 17 hours to go? That's already too rich for my blood. I'd like to run across a nice stock of 6BQ5's at some point, but I'm pretty well covered right now. I sure as hell wouldn't kick 'em out of bed, though. I'm a little sick of looking at tubes for awhile. I still scan for bargains, but I'm not really out looking for anything in particular. I do have a single 6550 if any of the Pico Valve owners want to give it a try.

I'm trying to sell off some stuff for an amp purchase so if anybody is looking for a specific tube, now is the time...


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I do have a single 6550 if any of the Pico Valve owners want to give it a try...


Did you get a chance to try it? The 6CA7EH sounded terrible in there. I'll PM you...


----------



## 61rocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I think a nice neutral or transparent tube like and RCA 12AX7A/7025 something that doesn't have a strong character and is clean. This really lets the RFT 12AX7 shine in the tone slot. Try what you have on hand and see but after rolling quite a few in the PI with the RFT in the tone slot it became apparent that any tube with a specific voicing of its own would take away from the "meat" tone of the RFT. The cleaner the PI tube is the better I think...at least to my ears. I like the voicing of the RFT 12AX7 in the NT. Sounds cool. Makes me want to play blues/rock all day long.
> 
> Try the JJ and see. Its a darker sounding tube so it may dull some of the dynamics of the RFT or even become redundant because you have 2 tubes that are dark in character plus the EL84's too. I would try it and see though. Speculation is a waste of time if you have the tubes already. Go ahead and see if it dulls the amp up or not...


 I took it that you meant try the RCA 12AX7A/7025 in the PI slot..I just happen to have one, and I did this (in my 2210) with a vintage Mullard in V1, RCA Blackplate in V2, another vintage Mullard in V3, and a Sylvania in the Reverb or V4....wow nice.....I think I'll keep that for awhile...running all Tesla EL34s (pre JJs) for power....I like very much....I know I'm still a relatively new member...but I've been away awile with a health issue....what does the P and R mean? and I sure don't come here to cause problems....there's enuff of that on my YT channel.....just post a song sometime....it's crazy...always thankful for what I learn here from you guys...Rawk it.....BB


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I do have a single 6550 if any of the Pico Valve owners want to give it a try.



I bet the CA10 would like it 

If I were at home I'd be all over it. For now I'll keep it in mind, along with the oddball box or whatever we were doing with that


----------



## sccloser

How do the Ei ecc83's compare to the Mullards. They look very similar, and flash on start-up which is pretty cool if you happen to be looking into the back of your amp when you turn it on...


----------



## MartyStrat54

**********CORRECTION**********

Several years ago, I obtained info on Marshall amps on a respected tube site. I used that info on this thread. I found out today that my info is incorrect.

I have stated that V1 and V2 were the gain stages on a DSL/TSL and that V3 was the tone stack and cathode follower.

In reality (and verified by Wilder and Lane) V3B is an additional gain stage. V3A is the cathode follower "driving" the tone stack.

On an 800 type amp, V2B is a gain stage and V2A is a cathode follower driving a tone stack.

I am sorry for any confusion this may have caused. I now have to look at V3 a little differently since it is a gain stage tube.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> How do the Ei ecc83's compare to the Mullards. They look very similar, and flash on start-up which is pretty cool if you happen to be looking into the back of your amp when you turn it on...


 I have a vintage Mullard that flashes.....supposed to be a very well made tube if it does that......


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> How do the Ei ecc83's compare to the Mullards. They look very similar, and flash on start-up which is pretty cool if you happen to be looking into the back of your amp when you turn it on...



Mullards have a ribbed plate. All the Ei's I have dealt with were smooth plate like a smooth Tele.

I love them. I still have some from an RCA batch that I bought. I got 20 of them and they were all real healthy. I sold a lot for the V1 slot. Ei's have a bad rap for the "possibility" of being microphonic. I think this is more true for the later production tubes. The older one's tend to be rock solid.


----------



## sccloser

Cool. I bought 4 NOS ei ecc83's last week for $5 ea and have 3 more coming off of ebay for about $5 each.


----------



## sccloser

Would one of those be a top choice for v1 in a class 5? (I'm still trying to get you guys to recommend something for the class 5).


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mullards have a ribbed plate. All the Ei's I have dealt with were smooth plate like a smooth Tele.
> 
> I love them. I still have some from an RCA batch that I bought. I got 20 of them and they were all real healthy. I sold a lot for the V1 slot. Ei's have a bad rap for the "possibility" of being microphonic. I think this is more true for the later production tubes. The older one's tend to be rock solid.



I have a smoothplate Ei, I've only played on it long enough to verify it was good when I bought it, but for that time it sounded pretty good.

I missed out on some silver plate Ei's by a couple bucks back when I was still loading up on V1's...


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I have a vintage Mullard that flashes.....supposed to be a very well made tube if it does that......



That's probably because only tubes made by Philips usually exhibit this phenomena. Apparently it can only happen from a cold start and is due to the filament resistance being much higher initially when the tube is cold, so what you're seeing as a flash is a very brief spike in the heater voltage.

I have noticed that some CP Chinese tubes will now flash from a cold start.


----------



## sccloser

Sometimes when things flash they no worky no more.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Would one of those be a top choice for v1 in a class 5? (I'm still trying to get you guys to recommend something for the class 5).



There is no "one tube" that will excel above the others. I have sold Tele's, Amperex, Electrohome and Mullards to Class 5 owners. Some guys buy two or three tubes and then pick the one they like best. 

Mullard's are the most popular, followed by the Tele Ribbed Plate.


----------



## sccloser

I am using an Amperex in my mkiii and is sounds really good.

I may start rolling some of these Ei's through.


----------



## sccloser

Are the Sylvania black plates similar to the Raytheons?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Are the Sylvania black plates similar to the Raytheons?



Not in my experience. There is nothing that sounds quite like a Raytheon. I have several old JHS-12AX7 Sylvania tubes and they aren't bad, but they don't do anything for me in a Marshall.


----------



## sccloser

Ok, saw some on ebay kinda cheap but I think I will pass. My funds are limited.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Sometimes when things flash they no worky no more.


 I have heard that too....I was given an RCA 12ax7 that has the made in G. Britain on it....has a smooth plate...just wandering if this is one of the tubes Marty was referring to from the 70s that were made in E. Germany or Europe or wherever.....thought it might be an EI? or even RFT....


----------



## sccloser

If it is a 12ax7a and has a seam on the top, it may be a Mullard. I have a couple of those.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a few 7025's in my inventory. They were real popular about two years ago. However, I have those 12AD7's coming in and they are better than a 7025. Most people would use them in the phono stage or V1, as they have very low noise.



Would both or either be less cost than the RFT 12AX7's and be a good choice for the PI in your opinion?










61rocker said:


> ...what does the P and R mean?



Politics and religion



also: post # 666!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> There is no "one tube" that will excel above the others. I have sold Tele's, Amperex, Electrohome and Mullards to Class 5 owners. Some guys buy two or three tubes and then pick the one they like best.
> 
> Mullard's are the most popular, followed by the Tele Ribbed Plate.



The CA10 preamp is a lot like the Class5, and I have to say my favorite tubes in it have been, in no particular order, a VERY strong Sylvania, an early 50's GE, and an I61 Mullard (RIP). 

There's an I63 Mullard in there now, it's pretty good. I've not tried my smoothplate tele in it yet, nor have I spent a lot of time rolling at all with it.


----------



## 61rocker

SC...the RCA is a 12ax7A...and has a seam, tho Marty posted a comment to us new tube addicts (like me) about the 70s RCAs and where they may have been made....I think he said something to the extent that someone (EI or others) in East Europe was manufacturing, Mullard was inking them with Made in Gr. Britain, and they were winding up sold by RCA....( I hope I got that rite....)


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> If it is a 12ax7a and has a seam on the top, it may be a Mullard. I have a couple of those.



Not necessarily. As I said, if it says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and has "ribbed" plates, it is probably a Mullard. If it has "smooth" plates, it is something else like an Ei or RFT COPY. I have at least a half dozen tubes that have the chalky Telefunken logos with no diamonds <> on the bottom. These were made by RFT.

The RCA's I bought said, "Made In Gt. Britain," but they are actually Ei's.

As stated before. In the final days of the tube market, a lot of deception was used in the procurring and marketing of tubes. In 1978, RCA put on their tube boxes, "Distributor and Special Products Division." "Country of origin as marked on tube." (Well we know that wasn't necessarily so, right?)


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> I took it that you meant try the RCA 12AX7A/7025 in the PI slot..I just happen to have one, and I did this (in my 2210) with a vintage Mullard in V1, RCA Blackplate in V2, another vintage Mullard in V3, and a Sylvania in the Reverb or V4....wow nice.....I think I'll keep that for awhile...running all Tesla EL34s (pre JJs) for power....I like very much....I know I'm still a relatively new member...but I've been away awile with a health issue....what does the P and R mean? and I sure don't come here to cause problems....there's enuff of that on my YT channel.....just post a song sometime....it's crazy...always thankful for what I learn here from you guys...Rawk it.....BB



Yes. It won't intrude on the tone slot of the NT. I found that a nice mellow tube here let all that RFT come through. The NT only has 2 preamp tubes one being the PI so you can hear the differences right off. I have one of Marty's RCA D getter I think its a 1958 in mine. Man is it a clean sounding tube. pristine in fact.


----------



## 61rocker

Thx Big Marty....didn't have the patience to dig for the original comment.....this def has smooth plates....it's back home waiting on me....can't wait to give a roll.....Hey Joe....putting that 7025 smoothed out my tone....it was noticable.... going to go with this at tomorrow's practice....it also tested out slightly unbalanced.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> Would both or either be less cost than the RFT 12AX7's and be a good choice for the PI in your opinion?



You know brp, I think you should try your luck on EBAY. You can get tubes there for the lowest prices. Anyone who sells tubes is going to have to mark them up. Granted, my tubes are tested and I try to sell tubes that test at or better than new. However, I think for the most part, you can get a good bargain on EBAY tubes. You can always put a post here with a link and one of us guys can give you are opinion on them.

Why don't you try that?


----------



## brp

One more question before I finalize my tube purchase decisions.

If an amp takes a 12ax7, does that neccesarily mean any 12ax7 will fit in it?
I read somewhere on here recently that someone had an amp that takes a 12ax7 but that he had a particualr 12ax7 that would not fit in the amp's chassis.




MartyStrat54 said:


> You know brp, I think you should try your luck on EBAY. You can get tubes there for the lowest prices. Anyone who sells tubes is going to have to mark them up. Granted, my tubes are tested and I try to sell tubes that test at or better than new. However, I think for the most part, you can get a good bargain on EBAY tubes. You can always put a post here with a link and one of us guys can give you are opinion on them.
> 
> Why don't you try that?



I WAS trying that. The auctions consistently went above the prices that ppl here recommended paying


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> SC...the RCA is a 12ax7A...and has a seam, tho Marty posted a comment to us new tube addicts (like me) about the 70s RCAs and where they may have been made....I think he said something to the extent that someone (EI or others) in East Europe was manufacturing, Mullard was inking them with Made in Gr. Britain, and they were winding up sold by RCA....( I hope I got that rite....)



I think if it is a Mullard it will also have a code etched on it.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Would both or either be less cost than the RFT 12AX7's and be a good choice for the PI in your opinion?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Politics and religion
> 
> 
> 
> also: post # 666!



I'm thinking of a preamp tube you'd put in a Fender amp for cleans. I'm trying to think of a CP tube that is like that. I think one of those Preferred series 7025's from the Tube Store would fit the bill but they cost more than a ANOS RCA. Gives you more of an idea of what I mean. Maybe a GE Marty...?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> One more question before I finalize my tube purchase decisions.
> 
> If an amp takes a 12ax7, does that neccesarily mean any 12ax7 will fit in it?
> I read somewhere on here recently that someone had an amp that takes a 12ax7 but that he had a particualr 12ax7 that would not fit in the amp's chassis.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I WAS trying that. The auctions consistently went above the prices that ppl here recommended paying



Won't matter in the NT. There is room for it and the pin out is the same for 12AX7's.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know brp, I think you should try your luck on EBAY. You can get tubes there for the lowest prices. Anyone who sells tubes is going to have to mark them up. Granted, my tubes are tested and I try to sell tubes that test at or better than new. However, I think for the most part, you can get a good bargain on EBAY tubes. You can always put a post here with a link and one of us guys can give you are opinion on them.
> 
> Why don't you try that?



Also, I don't mind paying your markup honestly, for the peace of mind they will be tested and a good fit for my needs etc.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not necessarily. As I said, if it says, "Made In Gt. Britain" and has "ribbed" plates, it is probably a Mullard. If it has "smooth" plates, it is something else like an Ei or RFT COPY. I have at least a half dozen tubes that have the chalky Telefunken logos with no diamonds <> on the bottom. These were made by RFT.
> 
> The RCA's I bought said, "Made In Gt. Britain," but they are actually Ei's.
> 
> As stated before. In the final days of the tube market, a lot of deception was used in the procurring and marketing of tubes. In 1978, RCA put on their tube boxes, "Distributor and Special Products Division." "Country of origin as marked on tube." (Well we know that wasn't necessarily so, right?)



That's why I said "may be."  Mine are 60's RCA's that I verified through you guys on here. Blackburn rings a bell...


----------



## solarburn

Alright guys I will catch you in a little while. Have to go pick up my girls from youth group.


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Won't matter in the NT. There is room for it and the pin out is the same for 12AX7's.




It's actually the Blackheart I have that I was worried about, as luck would have it lol

The tubes seem to go down into the metal chassis with little clearance, and I'm concerned if I buy something, it may not fit.

I could post a pic and get y'all to say if it looks like there's plenty room for ANY 12ax7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> Are the Sylvania black plates similar to the Raytheons?



They are both manufactured using similar processes, but the Raytheon is above and beyond a better tube. Why? I have no idea. Now I did bid on a lot of eight 1957 Sylvania Black Plates with square getters. Once the bidding exceed my max bid, I was out. I have a wholesaler for the Raytheons and that is the tube I use. To spend a lot of money on a similar tube that doesn't do the job makes no sense.

Also, I have only had a few Sylvania Black Plates that tested high gain. Most test as "just good."


----------



## brp

brp said:


> It's actually the Blackheart I have that I was worried about, as luck would have it lol
> 
> The tubes seem to go down into the metal chassis with little clearance, and I'm concerned if I buy something, it may not fit.
> 
> I could post a pic and get y'all to say if it looks like there's plenty room for ANY 12ax7?



Here's pics of the slots:
















Does it look like I may run into a problem with certain 12ax7's not having room to insert?

I'm assuming if some are fatter I can remove that tube cover base but I don't know if that's wise, as I know nothing lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man that is tight as a frog's ass. You could run into a problem since there is a variance in the glass tubes. Now in the old days of NOS, tube bottles were rejected if they were bigger in diameter than the max specs. However, I do know that some CP 12AX7's are bigger than the norm.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man that is tight as a frog's ass. You could run into a problem since there is a variance in the glass tubes. .



Well after posting those, I thought since I have it open I'd see what's going on under those tube cover bases.

They come off easy and the tube socket is flush with that silver chassis, so I could just remove the cover bases and then I'd have plenty of clearance for any 12AX7, yes? Or.... am I overlooking something?

edit: for reference, the space in between the 2 cover bases is 1 inch.


----------



## 61rocker

I was just looking at Alan's post a week or so ago with all the pics of 12ax7s...thx to that I ID'd a Tungsrum with that little metal numbered tag on one of the getter supports...it's labeled Pinnacle...I thought it may be Japenese at first.....These were Hungarian? I have tried it a few times...it's strong and kind of aggressive...Think I'll give it a roll in my SuperLead.....


----------



## sccloser

I think the cp Tung Sols and the Sovteks are fatter than my NOS tubes. 

MM's tube comparison of the cp mullard ri and a real mullard showed that the glass was thicker on the cp tube, so I bet it was a little fatter as well.


----------



## sccloser

I have a Tungsgram and it sounds pretty good...has some edge to it.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I have a Tungsgram and it sounds pretty good...has some edge to it.


 Yeah, that's a good way to put it....I remembered it sounding really fat and full.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks to all the new guys that are regulars here now and are posting at least daily. Thank you for joining our group. 61rocker, brp and sccloser.


----------



## brp

It's a great privilege to have access to the "group's" knowledge and experience in such a forthcoming and friendly fashion. I'm honored to have it. Hopefully I'll have some preamp tube knowledge of my own to add some day.

For what it's worth, I spent over ten years as a live f.o.h. and monitor engineer and Stage Manager for clubs of various sizes, so if I can help anybody with anything related to that experience I'm more than happy to contribute.
Also lots of recording engineering and production technique experience.

Just not much tube knowledge, unfortunately. Gotta start somewhere though right?


----------



## solarburn

Hell yeah! Some great input just all around talk about what voicings the tubes have to identifying what exactly we're looking at. I haven't spent time identifying as much as I have actually roll'n them. I can lose time roll'n. I like how certain tubes have their own foot print or voice and how all that fits in my amps circuit. Depending on the circuit a tube can sound/feel good or it can be meh.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got to get up early for a Dr. appt. "And" I have to mail out that $30 package to Australia. Boy, I'm gonna be sore over that for a while.


----------



## 61rocker

The first time I got on the forum as a non member....I was looking for info on fake Les Pauls and wound up on a thread....then I started looking thru all the topics....Thx to you guys, my tone has improved 1000%....Peace Rawkers......61


----------



## Lowlife

brp said:


> Well after posting those, I thought since I have it open I'd see what's going on under those tube cover bases.
> 
> They come off easy and the tube socket is flush with that silver chassis, so I could just remove the cover bases and then I'd have plenty of clearance for any 12AX7, yes? Or.... am I overlooking something?
> 
> edit: for reference, the space in between the 2 cover bases is 1 inch.



If they come off easily you could consider replacing them with something like this:
Tube-Town Online-Store - Belton Abschirmbecher Noval silber bel-tubes2

Should leave you a bit more space.


----------



## IbanezMark

My entry is forthcoming...

I just bought a 6100 so I see tube rolling in my future


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks to all the new guys that are regulars here now and are posting at least daily. Thank you for joining our group. 61rocker, brp and sccloser.



Thanks to you guys for sharing your knowledge and experience!


----------



## sccloser

I'm getting some pretty sweet lead tones out of my mkiii with the 
v1 Amperex (id'd by you guys as a valco)
v2 Raytheon BP
v3 NOS JAN Sylvania

el 34's are GT's.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Joe, 

I got something for ya.. I have been jamming to this chicks CD since last year..Enjoy



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK65s-AvGDo]Joanne Shaw Taylor - Blackest Day - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## sccloser

One thing I have noticed is that when I use tubes such as the teles, or amperex or whatever (which are kind of the preferred v1's) I get pretty sweet singing lead tones, but lose a little edginess on the rhythm tones. It seems that the sweet smoothness that sounds good for leads softens the rhythm tones a bit.


----------



## sccloser

I have some more Ei's coming...hopefully they will show up today.


----------



## BluesRocker

I love the Teles..Maybe you lose your edge because you are boosting, and getting the tube to work harder? Ive never had a problem out of mine


----------



## sccloser

Fellow offered me some tubes...most are either NOS or only slightly used. This is what he has:
(4) RAM NIB
(3) RCA NOS
(1) Zenith Made in Holland
(2) GE made in 1962
(1) japanese (not sure what brand)
(2) unidentified older tubes
(2) CP JJ's

That's 15 12ax7's. He wants $145. Might be a good buy as they have all been tested to be in new condition.


----------



## MM54

That's less than $10 a tube for known good 12AX7's - if you have the cash, go for it.


----------



## brp

Lowlife said:


> If they come off easily you could consider replacing them with something like this:
> Tube-Town Online-Store - Belton Abschirmbecher Noval silber bel-tubes2
> 
> Should leave you a bit more space.



Thanks.

But (and this is to anyone) are those bases neccessary?
Can I just take them off and have nothing there if need be to accomodate fatter tubes?
I don't think most tube amps have these. I'm of the impression they are for protecting the tubes but not really anything else, such as actually helping to keep the tube inserted.
Later when I'm home I'll snap a pic without the bases and hopefully someone can tell me if the specific NOS tubes I'm planning to order imminently from Marty will be able to fit in these slots.... I'll give a measurement of the space between the glass of the stock JJ's as well.


----------



## sccloser

BluesRocker said:


> I love the Teles..Maybe you lose your edge because you are boosting, and getting the tube to work harder? Ive never had a problem out of mine



No, not boosting. I have the teles in my 2205, so I just switch to the boost channel.

I do boost the mkiii with a boss ge7, but that kinda tightens things back up.


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> That's less than $10 a tube for known good 12AX7's - if you have the cash, go for it.



That's kinda what I was thinking.

No telling what those RAM tubes are, but I think they are relabeled NOS US tubes.


----------



## MM54

brp said:


> Thanks.
> 
> But (and this is to anyone) are those bases neccessary?
> Can I just take them off and have nothing there if need be to accomodate fatter tubes?
> I don't think most tube amps have these. I'm of the impression they are for protecting the tubes but not really anything else, such as actually helping to keep the tube inserted.
> Later when I'm home I'll snap a pic without the bases and hopefully someone can tell me if the specific NOS tubes I'm planning to order imminently from Marty will be able to fit in these slots.... I'll give a measurement of the space between the glass of the stock JJ's as well.



The bases/covers are there to keep noise in the tube down. I put these shield bases on all amps I build just for the sake of noise reduction. I've not had any issues with tubes not fitting, although EH are a very tight fit. They also help to hold the tube in place, to an extent.

You can take them off if you want, and either go unshielded (no telling if you'll notice any more noise or not) or get slip-on shields that just sit on the tubes to provide some shielding. I'd suggest getting the tubes you're considering, then if they don't fit (they should), as a last resort, take the shield bases off. 

I've found that NOS tubes are narrower than CP ones, so I think you'll be fine, it's just a bit of a tight fit with some.


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> I've found that NOS tubes are narrower than CP ones, so I think you'll be fine, it's just a bit of a tight fit with some.



My experience as well.


----------



## brp

Good to know, thanks guys!

It's just that Marty called the one tube I'm getting a "stout Sylvania" and I was thinking that may mean it's particularly fatter than average 

If NOS is usually more narrow than CP I should be ok.

I imagine Marty could tell me how the dimensions of the specific tubes I'm looking at compare to the stock CP JJ's...

I don't want to be a pain but I don't want to get tubes I can't use without noise from having to run no shields or having to track down workable shields. I'd rather avoid that if possible.


----------



## MM54

brp said:


> Good to know, thanks guys!
> 
> It's just that Marty called the one tube I'm getting a "stout Sylvania" and I was thinking that may mean it's particularly fatter than average
> 
> If NOS is usually more narrow than CP I should be ok.
> 
> I imagine Marty could tell me how the dimensions of the specific tubes I'm looking at compare to the stock CP JJ's...
> 
> I don't want to be a pain but I don't want to get tubes I can't use without noise from having to run no shields or having to track down workable shields. I'd rather avoid that if possible.



By stout, he means it's a strong tube, physically they're all the same within realistic tolerances for glass. I'm pretty sure they'll work - I'll put it this way, *I, personally* have never seen a NOS 12AX7 that was any wider than any CP ones, if anything, they've all been narrower.


----------



## scat7s

MM54 said:


> *I, personally* have never seen a NOS 12AX7 that was any wider than any CP ones, if anything, they've all been narrower.


 
same here, JJ/sovtek pre's seem to be the fattest of CP as well, to my eyes anyway. if the JJ's fit, i would think anything would.

i dont think you'll have any trouble brp. 

by the way, i have a few mullard pre's and they all flash when started cold.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm about to be going through the last batch of tubes tonight and tomorrow afternoon. If anybody needs anything in particular, be sure and let me know here. I don't mind holding some tubes out for anyone but I need some numbers. I have a large number of Compactrons as well as the big 6-volt tubes with the top cap like the 6BQ6A, etc. I alo have several rectifiers, mainly 5R4 and 5U4 varieties. Tons of 7-pin and 9-pin mini's.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I got to get up early for a Dr. appt. "And" I have to mail out that $30 package to Australia. Boy, I'm gonna be sore over that for a while.



Are you getting the bad tube back from the buyer? You may have already answered and I missed it.


----------



## rockinr0ll

Tube Report:

Just changed tubes as I had to order some because the stock "Groove Tubes" were micro-phonic and I dropped one. :0

My choice was an all around good tube that would not go micro-phonic but at a CHEAP price. Of course, I looked no further than Sovtek 12AX7WA. I used an Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH for V1 and the Sovtek for V2 and V3 slot. First test was to see if the were microphonic. NOPE! CHECK! Then I tested out the sound on the CLEAN channel. VERY NICE AND DYNAMIC. I tested the overdrive of the amp and it was alright but I knew the real test would be how my DS-1 would react with the clean channel. STEP ON IT AND TONAL BLISS. For 30$ for these Russian tubes I could not be more happier. Much better than the Penta Lab (GT-12AX7C) and JJ tubes I had tried. Fender amps can't go wrong with Russian tubes. I would stick with JJ for Marshall amps though. CHEERS!!!  X)


----------



## Marshall Mann

Marshall Mann said:


> Well guys, finally got all the caps sorted out in the B&K 700, and the meter is still deflecting to the left. Crap!
> 
> Any ideas???
> 
> Bump
> 
> Or is that a resounding "no", no one has more of a clue than I do.


----------



## 61rocker

Wish I could help......


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Marshall Mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well guys, finally got all the caps sorted out in the B&K 700, and the meter is still deflecting to the left. Crap!
> 
> Any ideas???
> 
> Bump
> 
> Or is that a resounding "no", no one has more of a clue than I do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I had my 707 and/or my service manual with me I'd try to help you out, but I'm stuck man
Click to expand...


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> Wish I could help......



Thanks man!

I am beginning to think the meter it's self is bad.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> Marshall Mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I had my 707 and/or my service manual with me I'd try to help you out, but I'm stuck man
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MM, I cant find any thing in the manual that would cover this. The shorts light doesn't light up, so thats not it. Like I said above, I beginning to think the meter is bad. I dont think a resistor going out would cause it.
Click to expand...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Do you have any desirable Compactrons and mini tubes? Those I would sell in separate lots. Maybe Zack at ZVEX (NANO amps) would buy some off of you, or are they pretty common? From what I understand, there is a glut of Compactrons. I guess GE made a boatload of them from about 1961 until the early 70's.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> I got something for ya.. I have been jamming to this chicks CD since last year..Enjoy
> 
> 
> 
> Joanne Shaw Taylor - Blackest Day - YouTube



This girl can cook up some tasty bloos. Whether she's serving it piping hot or cool as ice I'll have another helping. I've only seen vids on her. I bet the CD kicks arse!


----------



## solarburn

IbanezMark said:


> My entry is forthcoming...
> 
> I just bought a 6100 so I see tube rolling in my future



Oh yah you will!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Marshall Mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well guys, finally got all the caps sorted out in the B&K 700, and the meter is still deflecting to the left. Crap!
> 
> Any ideas???
> 
> Bump
> 
> Or is that a resounding "no", no one has more of a clue than I do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know that there were two meter assemblies and they each used a different load resistor in the meter circuit. The wrong resistor with the wrong meter caused deflection problems.
> 
> Now if it was working okay for a while, then I would make sure that the sensitivity pot is cleaned out good. That pot, if dirty can cause deflection problems.
> 
> That's all I can think of.
Click to expand...


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Good to know, thanks guys!
> 
> It's just that Marty called the one tube I'm getting a "stout Sylvania" and I was thinking that may mean it's particularly fatter than average
> 
> If NOS is usually more narrow than CP I should be ok.
> 
> I imagine Marty could tell me how the dimensions of the specific tubes I'm looking at compare to the stock CP JJ's...
> 
> I don't want to be a pain but I don't want to get tubes I can't use without noise from having to run no shields or having to track down workable shields. I'd rather avoid that if possible.



Yeah Like Matt said stout means a strong tube not big in size. I have those bases on my Monza and have had some preamp tubes be tight but not so much they won't fit. You should be fine and again as Matt stated the NOS are usually smaller if any thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I saw a beautiful blonde blues guitarist in a Chicago bar a few years back (maybe longer than I think). She played what else...a Tele and man was she mesmerizing. I can watch a good-looking gal chew gum, let alone rip a tasty riff off of the neck of her guitar.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I saw a beautiful blonde blues guitarist in a Chicago bar a few years back (maybe longer than I think). She played what else...a Tele and man was she mesmerizing. I can watch a good-looking gal chew gum, let alone rip a tasty riff off of the neck of her guitar.



Amen to that. JST kicks some major butt. I love this instrumental.. Covering SRV at the end..And she is british..

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4rJn9j2Pg]White Sugar / Rude Mood. Joanne Shaw Taylor - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Do you have any desirable Compactrons and mini tubes? Those I would sell in separate lots. Maybe Zack at ZVEX (NANO amps) would buy some off of you, or are they pretty common? From what I understand, there is a glut of Compactrons. I guess GE made a boatload of them from about 1961 until the early 70's.



Marty, there are so many tubes that it'd be impossible to weed out all the good numbers, especially on the ones I know nothing about like Compactrons. I just offered to sell one of our forum brothers a box of about 125 Compactrons. That's mainly just the little short ones.


----------



## MM54

The little short ones are cute


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> NOS are usually smaller if any thing.



Is there a known technical explanation for why that is, guys?
Just curious...


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Is there a known technical explanation for why that is, guys?
> Just curious...




If I remember right the Mullard Ri's and Tung Sols are fat 12AX7's. Thicker glass or wider bottle. Marty, Alan, Matt or whomever can tell you more about why...


----------



## sccloser

Glass is thinner for one thing.


----------



## MM54

When I did my analysis of the CP "Mullard" vs an actual 1962 Mullard, the glass and thus the entire bottle of the CP tube was significantly thicker. Here's a link to my entire results:

http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-reissue-vs-original-physical-comparison.html


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> When I did my analysis of the CP "Mullard" vs an actual 1962 Mullard, the glass and thus the entire bottle of the CP tube was significantly thicker. Here's a link to my entire results:
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...-reissue-vs-original-physical-comparison.html



That is the comparison to which I was referring....


----------



## sccloser

Well, I am disappointed today. The Ei's I was waiting for came. I took a chance on these, as the guy said he bought a Marshall jcm 900 in 1993 and these were the original tubes. They were in there about 6 mos or so and he re-tubed with all GT and he put them in the little GT tube containers and in the closet. He said he thought they were yugo. No good pics. So, I got them for $15, shipping included, hoping they were Ei. They were original Marshall tubes, but they were Chinese. Oh well, at least they were not Sovteks.


----------



## sccloser

Alan, what exactly are compactrons? I have a few of those myself.


----------



## sccloser

On a brighter note, I may score 15 12ax7's tomorrow. The guy is interested in my IEC 10x Master series 12at7s, my Sylvania 12av7 and my JAN Philips 6189w's so I can make partial swap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Compactron is a 12-pin vacuum tube family introduced in 1961 by General Electric in Owensboro, Kentucky to compete with transistorized electronics during the solid state transition. Television sets were a primary application.

Compactrons are electronic vacuum tube units which contain arrangements of diodes, triodes, or pentodes in multiple combination arrays, as well as high or low-voltage and power types.

Basically three different tubes in one glass envelope. I think some even had four functions.


----------



## sccloser

Let's build an amp around some!


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Marshall Mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know that there were two meter assemblies and they each used a different load resistor in the meter circuit. The wrong resistor with the wrong meter caused deflection problems.
> 
> Now if it was working okay for a while, then I would make sure that the sensitivity pot is cleaned out good. That pot, if dirty can cause deflection problems.
> 
> That's all I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Marshall Mann said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MM54 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MM, I cant find any thing in the manual that would cover this. The shorts light doesn't light up, so thats not it. Like I said above, I beginning to think the meter is bad. I dont think a resistor going out would cause it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Marshall Mann
> 
> Something I don't think you will find in the B&K700 manual is the meter movement spec for your particular tester. This has to do with what Marty mentioned. If you have a 1mA/42-ohm movement, than you should have a 56 ohm resistor at one side of the meter. I believe that if the resistor is missing, your meter will deflect left.
> 
> This might be the problem??? Let us know.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## sccloser

Ok guys, I've been on the MF for about a year and 5 months now, and I just made a milestone 1000 posts. So I thought that I would share that moment with my buds here in my favorite thread.


----------



## 61rocker

Heading to Little Rock and going to stop by Little Rock Frets to see if he has any amp pulls....he sells them to me for $10 which I don't mind supporting him....anything to help him against Guitar Center....so far I've found a Mullard....Tungsram....RCA....and a Magnavox Labeled Hitachi....all have worked well....sometimes he has some cool EL34s....


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Ok guys, I've been on the MF for about a year and 5 months now, and I just made a milestone 1000 posts. So I thought that I would share that moment with my buds here in my favorite thread.


 Rawk On SC....Rawk On....


----------



## solarburn

Another for sccloser!


----------



## sccloser

Thanks guys!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Congrats Vic!


----------



## johnfv

man... my 750 is looking pretty weak


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys! 

I got it!!!!! The B&K 700 is firing on all cylinders again!!!

After getting tired of the bruises on my forehead and checking over the schematic (and listening to some great advice), I checked the GE 55 bulbs and one was out. Sure enough the 55 bulbs are part of the voltage control! Popped in a new one (granted, a cheap Chinese variant from my local auto parts store) and bam! She is back in gear! 

Damn! I wish I would have thought of that earlier!


----------



## johnfv

ooh wait, now 751...


----------



## Marshall Mann

johnfv said:


> ooh wait, now 751...



Time for a post count frenzy John!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you want to do that circuit right, the 55's are supposed to be soldered in their socket. If you read any data on the 700/707 B and K, they all state to solder the bulb to the base.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you want to do that circuit right, the 55's are supposed to be soldered in their socket. If you read any data on the 700/707 B and K, they all state to solder the bulb to the base.



Yea, I've read that too Marty. But I'm not buying it 100%. Maybe if I have consistency problems, or the meter goes "wobbly" on me, I'll try it. But these things only carry 7 volts. 

They are a pain to get at (I suppose if you have tiny fingers, you would have fewer problems), and being that they are a light bulb, and will wear out, I am not ready to solder them in. It would be like soldering in a break pad, or light bulb in your house. Eventually, you'll have to swap them out. And after a few times soldering in those bulbs, you are going to have to replace the bayonet sockets, I dont even want to think about doing that!


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Guys!
> 
> I got it!!!!! The B&K 700 is firing on all cylinders again!!!
> 
> After getting tired of the bruises on my forehead and checking over the schematic (and listening to some great advice), I checked the GE 55 bulbs and one was out. Sure enough the 55 bulbs are part of the voltage control! Popped in a new one (granted, a cheap Chinese variant from my local auto parts store) and bam! She is back in gear!
> 
> Damn! I wish I would have thought of that earlier!



You're going to want to get a pair of good #55's so you know they're equally worn and solder them in. I have a full set of American bulbs and indicators I got as NOS for spares for my 707. Really I doubt through normal use that the bulbs are going to wear down, but even if they go, I have the replacements, since those bulbs are extremely important to the functionality and accuracy/reliability of the tester. Before I soldered mine in, the needle was everywhere, despite the bulbs looking like they were properly lit and steady. Soldering them in took care of the issue, and allowed me to confidently calibrate the thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Just so you know. Tid-bits and facts on tubes.*

The first 6.3 volt tubes, types '36, '37, '38, etc. were developed
for use in automobile receivers when cars had 6 volt batteries. Some
radio manufacturers, notably Philco in the US, quickly adopted these for
mains-power radios as well. The rest changed over within a few years.

Also, most of the vintage rectifier tubes had a 2.5 volt heaters and they demanded a lot of current. So, they doubled the voltage to 5 to drop the current draw by half.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Just so you know. Tid-bits and facts on tubes.*
> 
> The first 6.3 volt tubes, types '36, '37, '38, etc. were developed
> for use in automobile receivers when cars had 6 volt batteries. Some
> radio manufacturers, notably Philco in the US, quickly adopted these for
> mains-power radios as well. The rest changed over within a few years.
> 
> Also, most of the vintage rectifier tubes had a 2.5 volt heaters and they demanded a lot of current. So, they doubled the voltage to 5 to drop the current draw by half.



 

Very interesting, Marty


----------



## sccloser

I got a NOS 12ae7 if you need one for a car radio...


----------



## paul-e-mann

pedecamp said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Because tube rolling is fun!!!



I think I hit the nail on the head. Lets end this contest and send me the tubes now. HA!


----------



## matt3310

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Because I NEED some more tubes to keep these babys running!!! And I dont have spares!!


----------



## solarburn

matt3310 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Because I NEED some more tubes to keep these babys running!!! And I dont have spares!!



Matt here makes a good point. Him and anyone with a 6100.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> You're going to want to get a pair of good #55's so you know they're equally worn and solder them in. I have a full set of American bulbs and indicators I got as NOS for spares for my 707. Really I doubt through normal use that the bulbs are going to wear down, but even if they go, I have the replacements, since those bulbs are extremely important to the functionality and accuracy/reliability of the tester. Before I soldered mine in, the needle was everywhere, despite the bulbs looking like they were properly lit and steady. Soldering them in took care of the issue, and allowed me to confidently calibrate the thing.



Gee, wouldn't it be really handy if someone we all know raided a repair shop and had a couple of boxes of NOS 55's?


----------



## RiverRatt

matt3310 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Because I NEED some more tubes to keep these babys running!!! And I dont have spares!!



Matt, can you send that photo to me in hi-rez? I want to print a poster-size copy and hang it behind my one little Marshall half-stack just so my wife will get the message!


----------



## Clammy

matt3310 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> Because I NEED some more tubes to keep these babys running!!! And I dont have spares!!



Naaah, you don't need tubes... you need MORE AMPS!!!!! 

LOVE the Wall O' Marshalls! 

Cheers!


----------



## Lowlife

Looks like you just bought a new amp everytime you needed new tubes Matt


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> You're going to want to get a pair of good #55's so you know they're equally worn and solder them in. I have a full set of American bulbs and indicators I got as NOS for spares for my 707. Really I doubt through normal use that the bulbs are going to wear down, but even if they go, I have the replacements, since those bulbs are extremely important to the functionality and accuracy/reliability of the tester. Before I soldered mine in, the needle was everywhere, despite the bulbs looking like they were properly lit and steady. Soldering them in took care of the issue, and allowed me to confidently calibrate the thing.



Thanks Matt,

I bought 4 bulbs from the parts store. I measured the resistance of the existing good bulb and 3 of the 4 new bulbs were exactly the same as the old one. With the new bulb in the 700 is reading exactly where it was before (even with new caps installed). I have a few tubes that I know to be good that I have written down the scores on for reference points. They all tested at the same readings as before. The only difference is that the meter moves to it's reading point much faster than it did before. No wobbles or inconsistency what so ever. 

I was thinking of getting some GE 55's just because I am sure they will last longer. But at $20 a pop I may wait a bit.


----------



## sccloser

OK, scored 11 more tubes today...9 of which were oldies...2 were JJ ecc83's...we don't need to apeak of them, they came as a package deal, they did test new, though.

Basically got them for $8 each. One, a Sylvania, tested 46/48 on the Eico, with good being 80 and up, and 60 to 80 being questionable. So it is a paperweight. One RCA (I think it is an RCA...) tested 74/80, so it is a spare/temp.

All the rest tested 90 plus, with an EI testing 118/108..best of the bunch!

So, tossing out the jj's, the bad Sylvania and the so-so RCA for discussion purposes, here;s the exciting part...
1, The Ei, seems on top, Yugo, nice and strong...NOS.
2. Zenith, made in Holland, seems on top, flashes on cold start, tests strong.
3. Un ID'd Made in Japan, had yellow printing but is wearing off, triple micas, looks like a slanted getter. What is this? Tests strong.
4. RCA
5. Sylvania
6. ? 12ax7, white print worn, 12AX7 printed in bold block lettering, a "G" as if the begining of Great Britain or Germany, no seems, halo getter, gray, ribbed plates, tests very strong, possibly GE if the "G" was for General Electric?
7. RCA

Anyway, would really like to know what the Jap is and any info on the Zenith.


----------



## MM54

Pictures would make identifying those 2000x easier and 37x faster


----------



## MartyStrat54

That Japanese tube should be easy to identify. Sounds like a slant getter Matsushita.


----------



## Lowlife

MM54 said:


> Pictures would make identifying those 2000x easier and 37x faster



hmmm, i hear that 87% of all statistics on the internet is made up on the spot


----------



## MM54

Lowlife said:


> hmmm, i hear that 87% of all statistics on the internet is made up on the spot



I agree with you 104%


----------



## MartyStrat54

Notice-This thread should hit 200,000 views maybe by tonight. It had gotten a little sluggish and I thought the tube contest would pick it up. I do think people are more interested now and we have some new regulars that are helping keep the thread content fresh.


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> Pictures would make identifying those 2000x easier and 37x faster



How did anyone identify tubes on the internet before Al Gore invented the digital camera...


----------



## MartyStrat54

We used the Post Office a lot more back then.


----------



## sccloser

I'm pretty sure that tube #6 I have listed is a GE. I found some pics on the net that are exactly like it. Can really tell the way the 12AX7 is printed on it.

Closest tube to the Japan 12ax7 with the triple micas I have seen a pic of was a Toshiba, but it was not exact. I think it is a slant getter, but I really can't see the getter. The micas's themselves are slanted and the getter flash is slanted, so I ASSUME the getter is slanted as well. This tube sounds pretty good in my dsl 401. I've been rolling them a little in it.


----------



## 61rocker

My trip to LR for tubes was a dry run.....won't get that RCA until next time it seems....I did drop by GC in Memphis and found a used 1960BX A cab...for $649 but that's for another thread....I did get another Mazda I won a couple of weeks ago from this guy in England....tests out at about 82/82...paid $9 or so for it...takes a while to get here, almost forgot about it....


----------



## sccloser

So a guy in Memphis is buying a French tube from a guy in England?


----------



## 61rocker

yep...actually these are UK made Mazdas.....I think I have a French one with Gold Pins, but I don't know for sure....that one is my favorite so far...came in my '71 Super Lead with 2 original Mullards when I got it....


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> So a guy in Memphis is buying a French tube from a guy in England?



Doesn't sound that far-fetched to me. You wouldn't think about people from around here buying tubes from Russia for local sales, but there are three of us who are doing just that. 

Of course you know we cut the bases off of them and remove all the guts and drink moonshine out of them 

Our master plan is to figure out how to build an all-tube bug zapper to hang out back for weekend entertainment when we have company over.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Doesn't sound that far-fetched to me. You wouldn't think about people from around here buying tubes from Russia for local sales, but there are three of us who are doing just that.
> 
> Of course you know we cut the bases off of them and remove all the guts and drink moonshine out of them
> 
> Our master plan is to figure out how to build an all-tube bug zapper to hang out back for weekend entertainment when we have company over.


 
Tennessee Tea......


----------



## MartyStrat54

That would be cool. A tube powered bug zapper. I'd love to see the power supply.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got my NEC 12AD7's today. Nice.

I also made an offer that was accepted for some DARIO MINIWATTS from Paris. According to the seller's test results, they should all be V1's.

So we have a guy in Kansas buying Brazilian tubes off of a guy in Paris.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Our master plan is to figure out how to build an all-tube bug zapper to hang out back for weekend entertainment when we have company over.



More fun making one out of old weed eater parts. Of course, few bugs ever make it all the way through the thick smoke to get zapped...they just drop dead of lung cancer about 2 feet away. But you can make bets on which one you think will get the closest before it succumbs to smoke inhalation.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Our master plan is to figure out how to build an all-tube bug zapper to hang out back for weekend entertainment when we have company over.


Us Texas Hillbillies have had that shit goin for years  Top secret...


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, we have a TVA hydroelectric dam less than 10 miles away... I was thinking of tapping straight into that. I'm thinking of a low voltage, high current Tesla coil. With TVA power behind it, it would be easy to build but if a mosquito flies into it, it will cause a slight brown-out over much of the southeastern United States. You'd also have to isolate it behind a LARGE fence - maybe a 2-mile radius, and I don't think you could allow air traffic in the area. It would probably screw up digital signals like cell phones and communications satellites.

All bullshit aside, we had an old dude who lived around here named Snag McClain. He worked on tractors and dabbled in electronics and whiskey. It was so long ago that I don't remember the details, I think I was still in high school, but he built a "device" by using an OLD John Deere tractor and hooking the ignition coil on the thing to a booster tied to his 150' antenna. He basically generated an EMP pulse that knocked out all phone and radio communication for hours. If any of you are old enough and grew up in the country, those old John Deere single-piston and 3-cylinder engines would play merry hell with your television if one went by on the road.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I got my NEC 12AD7's today. Nice.
> 
> I also made an offer that was accepted for some DARIO MINIWATTS from Paris. According to the seller's test results, they should all be V1's.
> 
> So we have a guy in Kansas buying Brazilian tubes off of a guy in Paris.



Those MW's are nice V1 tubes. They've earned a place in my amps tone slots. Anyone else here try them out in their amps?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know anything about Miniwatt. That's one I've never owned. What other Philips tubes do they compare to?


----------



## solarburn

Ooh! Nice and crunchy, good roll off to clean yet plenty strong for a healthy dose of saturation. I like them over Mullards too. I haven't used them in a Marshall yet but in both my El84 amps they really did great. High on my short list of V1's. Just have to watch for microphonics. I had a couple that were and a couple that weren't.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys! 

I picked up an old Mallory line voltage regulator (AKA Variac)! I'm gonn'a heat up my transformers and cook some power tubes to see what kind of brown sound I can get! 

Seriously though, this thing is cool! $35 from Bob at the electronic wholesale place (where I got the Mullards for $3.75 ea).


----------



## MartyStrat54

MiniWatts were made all over and they were also relabeled. Example: Some Valvo's are actually MiniWatts and some MiniWatts are actually Valvo's. They can sometimes be tough to identify. Some were made in Holland. The DARIO is either a French or a Brazilian tube. This is the tube I run in V1 of both my JMP and JCM. As I posted previously here on this thread, yellow print denotes a Holland tube and Green print is either a French or a Brazilian tube (Indústria Brasileira de Produtos Eletrônicos).


----------



## Lowlife

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> I picked up an old Mallory line voltage regulator (AKA Variac)! I'm gonn'a heat up my transformers and cook some power tubes to see what kind of brown sound I can get!
> 
> Seriously though, this thing is cool! $35 from Bob at the electronic wholesale place (where I got the Mullards for $3.75 ea).



3.75??? Sounds like a guy worth meeting


----------



## sccloser

Did you guys notice I changed my avatar from the old Airline by RCA 12AX7A to a Telefunkin ECC83 smoothie....No? Did that for my 1000th post.


----------



## MM54

I did notice it was a tele, but I had assumed I just looked over it in the past


----------



## sccloser

I'll have to let jcmjmp know that I changed it...haha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You made an upgrade to the Tele.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Lowlife said:


> 3.75??? Sounds like a guy worth meeting



All 12AX7's he gets are $3.75 tested. The hard part is that they are gone as fast as they come in though. You have to get there early. 

It was an odyssey finding him (I posted some of it in here in the thread). He has been great to hang and BS with as well. One of those guys that has not done anything really exciting, but he could write about about his life. Is shop is a maze of stuff. Just about anything you could think of. He started by buying US army and government equipment and wholesaling it in the 70's and has been at it ever since.


----------



## MM54

That's the kind of place I really like visiting


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> That's the kind of place I really like visiting



I wish I could get you guys there on a field trip! It's one of those things where your so freek'n excited to tell somebody what you have found, and no one gets it! Only my fellow glass hounds here on the forum can appreciate it.


----------



## solarburn

A field trip would be a hoot. We'd all be drool'n an piss'n ourselves.


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> I wish I could get you guys there on a field trip! It's one of those things where your so freek'n excited to tell somebody what you have found, and no one gets it! Only my fellow glass hounds here on the forum can appreciate it.



If I'm in the area, I'll let you know 

So wait, whereabout is your area again?


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


> If I'm in the area, I'll let you know
> 
> So wait, whereabout is your area again?




Thats for me to know and you to wonder about MM!






















JK! 

Portland Or. Just South of Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was service manager for a pro sound company in Phoenix. Next to us was a company called Arizona Organ repair. They had buckets full of tubes. REC, Power and loads of preamp tubes. My setup at the time was two pre-CBS Fender Bassman's. They had a tech that was close to my age. He modded my Bassman's (different tone caps for guitar frequencies) and he changed out all the tubes to RCA. I had RCA Black Plate 6L6GC's and RCA 12AX7's. He was the guy who got me interested in knowing about tubes. I always wonder what happened to those buckets. There must have been at least thirty of them. This was 1986.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was service manager for a pro sound company in Phoenix. Next to us was a company called Arizona Organ repair. They had buckets full of tubes. REC, Power and loads of preamp tubes. My setup at the time was two pre-CBS Fender Bassman's. They had a tech that was close to my age. He modded my Bassman's (different tone caps for guitar frequencies) and he changed out all the tubes to RCA. I had RCA Black Plate 6L6GC's and RCA 12AX7's. He was the guy who got me interested in knowing about tubes. I always wonder what happened to those buckets. There must have been at least thirty of them. This was 1986.



I think about it way more than I should Marty....what happened to all those tubes that guy had? 

Bob has a wall of slide out drawers full of tubes, sorted by voltage then pin. Everything you could ever think of. Only the drawers you want to open firts (12AX7, EL-34, 6L6) are empty! You have to get there early and ask for whats behind the counter, and or be on "the list".


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was service manager for a pro sound company in Phoenix. Next to us was a company called Arizona Organ repair. They had buckets full of tubes. REC, Power and loads of preamp tubes. My setup at the time was two pre-CBS Fender Bassman's. They had a tech that was close to my age. He modded my Bassman's (different tone caps for guitar frequencies) and he changed out all the tubes to RCA. I had RCA Black Plate 6L6GC's and RCA 12AX7's. He was the guy who got me interested in knowing about tubes. I always wonder what happened to those buckets. There must have been at least thirty of them. This was 1986.



1986...I didn't get into NOS until I got here. Would have been great to know someone back in the day and then have a big ole stash from it.


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah....I would like to find a big stash of 12ax7s....and I know this would be asking too much but some EL34s....
I know this will be hard to believe, but tonite....well.....I went back to the Mazda Gold Pin....in V1....and I put a slightly unbalanced RCA Blackplate in the PI.....I just threw away my Viagra....uh...maybe ya'll should ignore that last part....I just keep going back to that Gold Pin in the 2210....it has the best gain and ring....it can get a little on the treble side, but a RCA BP in V2 and a Mullard in V3 and now that other RCA in PI keep it in check.....but still crisp and that Marshall Ring comes out...think Open G chord cranked....and tight bottem end with the ...well what else...Teslas.....I can't believe I thought those might be junk before I started getting on here and then comparing them with other el34s......The RFT Siemans sound great too....that was a steal....


----------



## solarburn

Looks like a great recipe for tone. Cherry picked!LOL


----------



## 61rocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Looks like a great recipe for tone. Cherry picked!LOL


 It makes those Burstbucker Pros really come alive....Roll back the volume a little and ya got Page.....not exact of course but.... it's there....roll back up and ya got almost every classic rocker that played Les Pauls....


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> It makes those Burstbucker Pros really come alive....Roll back the volume a little and ya got Page.....not exact of course but.... it's there....roll back up and ya got almost every classic rocker that played Les Pauls....



Now that I can appreciate. The Classics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hell, I would like to have those Fender's back. I played them through two custom 212 cabs that I made. Both were loaded with 1962 FANE speakers that I had rebuilt. That rig did everything from country to hard rock. A BOSS Chorus through those Fender's was one big fat tone. I better stop. I'm starting to get erect.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hell, I would like to have those Fender's back. I played them through two custom 212 cabs that I made. Both were loaded with 1962 FANE speakers that I had rebuilt. That rig did everything from country to hard rock. A BOSS Chorus through those Fender's was one big fat tone. I better stop. I'm starting to get erect.



Yeah I was thinking that set up was prolly real good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-You still have your gold Tele? That has DiMarzio's in it right? A Distortion Plus and a PAF. Is that correct? You play it much?


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> 1986...I didn't get into NOS until I got here. Would have been great to know someone back in the day and then have a big ole stash from it.



I remember distinctly the day I learned the difference between NOS and CP.

1988 - I took my Park 1210 in for a service and re tube because I thought it needed it. At the time it had Westinghouse EL-34's and EH12AX7's in it. When I got it back it sounded like crap! Tin foil, paper thin, terrible! I took it back to the guy and said WTF! It sounded better before you fucked with it! He gave me a line of shit and basically said "I dont know what to tell you". He put Chinese no name tubes in it. Man I was bummed! It wasn like he had neutered my head and had it's nuts in some box in the back of his shop! I pulled the tubes from my 2203 and swapped them in (no bias mind you because I didnt know better at the time) and immediately heard the difference. Those were the beginning of the "dark days" of tubes. All the good manufacturers were going out of business and you had to seek out the guys who knew the difference.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-You still have your gold Tele? That has DiMarzio's in it right? A Distortion Plus and a PAF. Is that correct? You play it much?



I need to get the frets crowned. I wore them down. The pups are coil split SD's. I don't split them though. I stay with the meat on it. Close to a Les Paul or to me it sounds close. My fav guitar.


----------



## 61rocker

Thx to the guys here....never would have gone vintage...probably would have gotten some JJs or RI Mullards...and I am not knocking them....Vintage for me opened up my whole approach to tone....Is it strange that my amp checks out on bias for the Teslas, Seimans, and some 93 Svets I have? I have had it checked out by a tech...and no blue or red glowing.....just pure sound....I thought maybe because the el34s were all made about the same year as the JCM800...and Marshall did use Teslas and Siemans as stock tubes at one point or another....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sweet.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I remember distinctly the day I learned the difference between NOS and CP.
> 
> 1988 - I took my Park 1210 in for a service and re tube because I thought it needed it. At the time it had Westinghouse EL-34's and EH12AX7's in it. When I got it back it sounded like crap! Tin foil, paper thin, terrible! I took it back to the guy and said WTF! It sounded better before you fucked with it! He gave me a line of shit and basically said "I dont know what to tell you". He put Chinese no name tubes in it. Man I was bummed! It wasn like he had neutered my head and had it's nuts in some box in the back of his shop! I pulled the tubes from my 2203 and swapped them in (no bias mind you because I didnt know better at the time) and immediately heard the difference. Those were the beginning of the "dark days" of tubes. All the good manufacturers were going out of business and you had to seek out the guys who knew the difference.



I use to beat the shit out of my tube amps back then. I'd run em' till the tubes quit. Had no idea how to bias or when to change them. No wonder my tone went to shit. I went to SS for awhile cause I thought tube amps sucked after the tubes were used up. Just didn't know. SS were made for us guys that didn't know any tube maintenance or use a tech(shady fuckers). So I have actually done most my learning when I got the DSL50. Thanx my friends for teaching me. Wilder put the finishing touches on my tube bias/maintenance learning. I won't go any further than changing tubes and biasing though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So JOE, you wore the neck off of that Tele. I still regret that I held a brand new one in my hands in 2004 and instead I bought a Takamine acoustic. What a dolt I was. I do shit like that from time to time.

The worst thing I ever done? I was getting ready to get out of the Air Force and I was in Japan. I had a sales catalog for a big music company back in the States. They had a Jimmy Page double neck SG for about the same price as this synthesizer. Yep, you guess it. I bought the synthesizer that became obsolete in about a year. I wonder what that Gibson double neck would be worth now?

What stupid things have you other guys done?


----------



## 61rocker

I have had a Tele that I could get Les Paul tones if I played with the tone knob some...I guess more like a Special maybe...roll back on the tone and get some of that high end out....nice and chunky....I kind of miss my Telecaster....


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> So JOE, you wore the neck off of that Tele. I still regret that I held a brand new one in my hands in 2004 and instead I bought a Takamine acoustic. What a dolt I was. I do shit like that from time to time.
> 
> The worst thing I ever done? I was getting ready to get out of the Air Force and I was in Japan. I had a sales catalog for a big music company back in the States. They had a Jimmy Page double neck SG for about the same price as this synthesizer. Yep, you guess it. I bought the synthesizer that became obsolete in about a year. I wonder what that Gibson double neck would be worth now?
> 
> What stupid things have you other guys done?



I had to get my Strat crowned recently too. I wear them bitches down. Love to bend and vibrato the shiz out of it. Glad I have a guitar tech close by. I can actually get a whole new neck for the Strat when I want. Its a bolt on.


----------



## 61rocker

I have a bud who has a white Doubleneck....they can get a very good price on them....I was thumbing thru the Vintage Guitar Mag's Vintage Guitar Price guide..I know it's not exact and they address that, but it's a good reference for not only value, but what models were made when....found some really interesting info in there....my 78 Bicentennial Firebird III cost me $850 new....now low at $2400...high at $2700....


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> I have had a Tele that I could get Les Paul tones if I played with the tone knob some...I guess more like a Special maybe...roll back on the tone and get some of that high end out....nice and chunky....I kind of miss my Telecaster....



Well with the SD's in mine it rips. Nice meat tones hehe. Really need to get that thing redone.


----------



## 61rocker

Teles do rock....my brother has a 04 Ash body he would sell me, but I just can't pull the trigger right now....it has a great 3 tone dark looking finish on it....not a scratch....mine was a stock Hwy 1....I could nail Black Crows, Eagles, Page, Segars guy, it was a good one....slapped together like the old ones in my twisted opinion....pure vintage tele sound....sweetest neck pup.....I paid $450 for it brand new cuz a guy was clearancing them out...got my choice of 3 of them....it was an 04 also...maybe a good year???lol


----------



## 61rocker

Guitars on the Preamp thread???oooops....had an '83 Strat once that rocked the house too...it was stolen....miss that one....Lake Placid Blue.....mint...paid $500...anyone checked out ebay prices.....$1500 is not out of the question....mine was nicer than one at about $1700 BIN price...


----------



## MartyStrat54

04 was Fender's 40th Anniversary. I have the Fender 2004 products catalog and man they had some sweet guitars available.


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## MartyStrat54

Well we talk about a lot of things over here. It is our place and it is nice to find out what everyone has to say about certain things. Don't feel bad about talking about guitars. We could be posting pictures of fat, ugly women.


----------



## 61rocker

I love those "Art Guitars".....nice.....my dream is a closet classic Tele in either SeaFoam Green or that very very lite Blue...not Daphne Blue..but that'd do .....this guy that delivered plants to a nursery I worked for had a'61 Strat.....is going to give it to his grandson one day....can u imagine?.....I think it's a sunburst....I told him I"d give him $500 for it....he knew I was just joking, but his expression said it all.....


----------



## 61rocker

Fat ugly women....uhhh...OK....


----------



## 61rocker

Some peeps have all the luck....my friend and other guitar player back home....his brother did a remodel job for some guy..he paid him a Les Paul Custom....ran the serial number...it's a 1970 in reasonably good shape...he just gave it to my friend .....I played it Wednesday.....know a guy who played in Black Oak Arkansas during the 80s....bought a '58 Standard then for lke $3500....yeah, he still has it.....in a walk in fireproof vault...he went by JR Holiday....he loves Customs....I seen about 15 that he owns...."Here check this one out..." then comes back in "This one's lighter.....".....good guy too.....apparently made money with BOA...I know Jim Dandy's broker than anything....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> What stupid things have you other guys done?



I could fill a page with stupid gear deals that I've made over the years. The guitars I traded and sold off back in the 1980's and 1990's make me sick to think about. I think I had some sort of mental disorder that made me think that no matter what guitar I had, it wasn't quite as good as one that I didn't have. I went through guitars like crazy. I still do that to some extent, but I've learned to hang on to the really good ones and I keep a couple that are expendable. 

Amps, too. I've had some real beauties. Talk about not knowing anything about biasing... I would just throw some tubes in an amp and start playing. The thing is, if the tubes are fairly normal and the amp is in good shape, you're probably 90+% safe in doing so. I think my real moment of enlightenment wasn't when I learned how to bias my amp, it was when I learned to find the safe bias range for a set of tubes and how to dial the bias in for the best tone. Some sounded better hot, some sounded better cold, but you have to find that sweet spot if you're going to squeeze the maximum tone out of your amp. 

Joe, I can identify with your fret job. My 2006 Les Paul R8 is about to need its second fret dressing. I think when the inevitable re-fret comes along, I'm going to spend a little more and go stainless steel. It still plays well enough for now, but you can see the little divots under each string on the lower frets. I've been playing Fenders and that Ibanes RG and giving the Lester a break lately. I think I'm just trying to postpone the fret job.


----------



## solarburn

Sorry guys I passed out from lack of sleep last night. Hate when that happens at around 8pm cause then I wake up at 2am in the morn with nuth'n to do. The life of a graveyarder...todays my Monday.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I could fill a page with stupid gear deals that I've made over the years. The guitars I traded and sold off back in the 1980's and 1990's make me sick to think about. I think I had some sort of mental disorder that made me think that no matter what guitar I had, it wasn't quite as good as one that I didn't have. I went through guitars like crazy. I still do that to some extent, but I've learned to hang on to the really good ones and I keep a couple that are expendable.
> 
> Amps, too. I've had some real beauties. Talk about not knowing anything about biasing... I would just throw some tubes in an amp and start playing. The thing is, if the tubes are fairly normal and the amp is in good shape, you're probably 90+% safe in doing so. I think my real moment of enlightenment wasn't when I learned how to bias my amp, it was when I learned to find the safe bias range for a set of tubes and how to dial the bias in for the best tone. Some sounded better hot, some sounded better cold, but you have to find that sweet spot if you're going to squeeze the maximum tone out of your amp.
> 
> Joe, I can identify with your fret job. My 2006 Les Paul R8 is about to need its second fret dressing. I think when the inevitable re-fret comes along, I'm going to spend a little more and go stainless steel. It still plays well enough for now, but you can see the little divots under each string on the lower frets. I've been playing Fenders and that Ibanes RG and giving the Lester a break lately. I think I'm just trying to postpone the fret job.



I have a real problem with wear'n out frets cause of how I play. I think SS frets would be the way I'g go now too. Now that Strat I have is a cheapy but man I went through the frets in certain places like crazy. Its funny be'n a pentatonic mostly solo-er. I run them frets down in my favorite spots haha! If I played modes with long runs it would last longer. As it stands the places where I bend and vibrato the frets get shaved. So a guitar tech knows what kind of player I am when they get ahold of my fiddle.LOL

I also get my frets polished so the strings slide across them. This helps alot. If they aren't I can feel me shaven them flat on each bend. It feels nasty. That's how my Strat was out of the gate. Its satisfying how a little thing like having the frets polished can improve feel so much especially when playing blues/rock where bends and heavy vibrato happens often. For me it does.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> What stupid things have you other guys done?



I passed up a doubleneck Epi with hard case for $200 once... I don't remember why, but I kick myself everytime I see any sort of doubleneck guitar now.


----------



## 61rocker

Has anyone seen the Gold Pin Telefunkin ecc803s tubes on ebay with a $730 bid with over 6 days left?....wow.....


----------



## MM54

Holy shit :eek2:

telefunken ecc803s | eBay


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> Has anyone seen the Gold Pin Telefunkin ecc803s tubes on ebay with a $730 bid with over 6 days left?....wow.....



Yep, they have re listed a couple of times.


----------



## RiverRatt

That seems unreal to us, but there are audiophiles who think nothing about plunking down a few grand for tubes. A real Telefunken ECC803S could go for a grand easily. Remember, there are other people besides broke-ass guitar players bidding for these tubes.


----------



## TwinACStacks

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

 'Cuz rolling tubes makes my amps sound much more better.

 TWIN


----------



## RiverRatt

Where y'all hiding out? I'm running on cough syrup and tequila and I'm the only one here? Maybe some people have more exciting Saturday nights than I do.


----------



## thrawn86

Nope. I'm still here. Sorta. The Glenlivet is rendering that questionable.


----------



## RiverRatt

I hear you. Deciding when I'm one drink over the line is getting harder. I hate having to go back and read my posts the next morning to see if they make sense


----------



## thrawn86

When in doubt, just pour it out. I try very hard not to get silly anymore. Just a relaxer for my weary head.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nevermind. I think I'm there already. G'night all.


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## thrawn86

Take er easy, Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> When in doubt, just pour it out. I try very hard not to get silly anymore. Just a relaxer for my weary head.



Yeah, my problem is that it takes more and more to get my weary head relaxed every night. At least I finally feel like I'm getting over this cold. That's usually the way it works. When everybody else tucks in early I'm usually having one of my few late night sessions.


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## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> Take er easy, Alan.



Thanks, Admiral.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Where y'all hiding out? I'm running on cough syrup and tequila and I'm the only one here? Maybe some people have more exciting Saturday nights than I do.


 I was around watching the Hogs whip Auburn.....Then I crashed hard.....Tequila and cough syrup....been a while for that one.....


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## sccloser

61rocker said:


> I love those "Art Guitars".....nice.....my dream is a closet classic Tele in either SeaFoam Green or that very very lite Blue...not Daphne Blue..but that'd do .....this guy that delivered plants to a nursery I worked for had a'61 Strat.....is going to give it to his grandson one day....can u imagine?.....I think it's a sunburst....I told him I"d give him $500 for it....he knew I was just joking, but his expression said it all.....



Sonic Blue? I had one that color once.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Where y'all hiding out? I'm running on cough syrup and tequila and I'm the only one here? Maybe some people have more exciting Saturday nights than I do.



I was out of town. Then at band practice today. Back now.


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## sccloser

Stupid guitar deals, huh?
Well, back in the late 80's I was offered a 1973 Black Gibson LP Custom. I guy said he wanted $400 for it, and I went over to look at it with $400. Pretty good shape, all original with case. I said I'd take it, counted out the $400. Then he said that he wanted $425 for it. We argued over the $25 and I walked, Not sure who misunderstood who, but wish I had not lost the deal over $25.
In 1990 I could have bought a beautiful 1989 LP Standard for $425. I hesitated, went back the next day and it was gone.
In 1988 I could have bought an early 80's LP Standard in Maui Blue for $400, but passed on it because it had buckle rash on the back.
I had a guy trade me a 1977 Fender strat, natural, for a Marshall jcm 800 lead series 4x12 cab that I was selling for $400 back in 1999. Not being a particularly big strat player, I sold it at the next guitar show for $675. A few months later they were selling for about $1200 on ebay, and now...over $2k.
I sold my 1987x in 2001 for $675. In 2009 I started playing in bands again and I can't seem to touch one then for less than $1500. Now they are around a grand, but still....
I bought a 1989 jcm 800 2205 in 1990 for $325. Sold it in 1993. Asking price on my 1986 jcm800 2205 was $1000 in '09.
I sold my 1985 LP Standard for $1500 in 2010 because I was having back issues. When my back got better, I missed it terribly. Got a 2007 LP Custom, which was awesome, but weighed a TON! Got a chance to buy the 85 back, sold the Custom and got it! Got it back for $1200...so that is actually a good deal I suppose. Though I should never have sold it in the 1st place.

I could have bought an all original VOX AC 30 in the little stand with the speaker cab for $350 in 1989. Passed on it because I thought it looked funny.

Oh, and here is the really bone-headed deal...In 1987 I was looking at this really nice guitar...long story short, it was one of the hand built early PRS Custom 22 10 tops. It was in GC in San Diego for $1300. I thought that was crazy, since a Gibson LP standard was less than $750 new, and though this was a nice guitar, who ever heard of PRS? So I passed. In the BB for Guitars, 2000 edition, that guitar is valued at $35,000. Doh! 
Just a few examples...


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## MartyStrat54

Sorry to hear all of that.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sorry to hear all of that.


No biggie. 

Makes for good stories...

I have had a lot of cool gear run through my hands over the years.. I just never seemed to be able to hold on to everything. I am fighting to hold on to my gear now. Would be so easy to sell some off to cover some bills, then I would just end up replacing it again though. We have replaced the recently departed members of our band and are about ready to book shows again, so I will be using it again soon. Band broke up first of June, so have been sidelined until now.


----------



## sccloser

But I have alot of good stories as well, but the topic I thought was bad deals.


----------



## sccloser

Let me back in here! I just read the thread where the fellow traded a vert input 2204 that he had for 15 years, mint, with a 1960tv cab for a Boogie tremoverb combo or something like that...straight trade I think. Uhgh. He seems happy with it, but it makes me feel queasy. I wish someone would trade me a Classic Marshall JCM 800 2204 half stack for my dsl 401 straight up. Oh well, not my stuff, so I should not be concerned. Of course they consensus was about 30 to one advising him to not make that trade when he asked if he should.

I think I will not again stray from the sanctuary of this thread, at least for a little bit. Five minutes minimum.


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## RiverRatt

I worked in a music store for decades. They had been around since 1937 and when I went to work there in 1987 dude had a 1952 Telecaster sitting on top of a display back behind the counter that said "Not For Sale" on it. He had sold the guitar new in the 1950's and whoever bought it couldn't make the payments so he repo-ed it. The guy who had bought it abused it severely and the store owner just didn't feel like he could sell it as bad as it looked. By 1987 it just looked like an old 1952 tele. I had to take a week off work to attend a seminar in St. Louis and when I got back to work I found that he had sold the Tele to some dude who was headed to a guitar show in Nashville and stopped in there and offered him $2,000 for it and he took it. That same store had a junk drawer of nothing but old Gibson ABR saddles, screws and bridges, another drawer with Fender amp parts, pilot lamp jewels, Ice Cube sustain couplers and tubes galore. There was a display case that had a huge drawer full of Fender amp covers from the 1960's and 1970's. There was an old RCA tube caddy full of tubes, old DeArmond pickups, At least 4 or 5 Tube Screamers that didn't work that Ibanez didn't want back, a Martin 000-18 from the 1950's that sounded incredible, a 1968 ES335 DOT, several of those awful alligator style Gibson SG cases, a binder from Fender that had schematics and diagrams for every guitar and amp they made up to about 1978, old Fender and Gibson hang-tags from the 1960's, Fender and Gibson catalogs from the 1960's and 1970's - remember those Fender catalogs with the psychedelic acid-art in them?? There was a Marshall 50/50 power amp... I could go on and on. I could have ended up with all that stuff but I bailed out when the store started going under back around 2001 and they sold it off for next to nothing when they folded. 

I don't even want to think about all the old Gibsons and Fenders that walked in through the front door and left because dude insulted them with a lowball trade-in offer. Used 1970's Les Pauls tripled in value while I was there. I had a 1973 LP Deluxe and what checked out to be a 1972 black Les Paul Standard with an ebony fingerboard that I got as trade-ins while I worked there. When the superstrat era started to decline, there was some good stuff left hanging on the walls that was marked down to maybe 1/4 of what they normally sold for. I could have gotten rich off the stuff that came through that place if I'd had any sense at all.


----------



## sccloser

In 1988 I was offered about 14 various Fender guitars which included Jazzmasters, Mustangs, etc....you know, the surf guitars, all in good shape and all with ohsc's. The guys wanted to get rid of them...he had taken them for trades and could not get rid of them. He said I could have any one for $100, or if I bought 2 or more $75 each! He asked me to please take them all. I said, "No way, I don't want that crap either." Then Nirvana came out and they were selling by 1990 for $750 each. Double Doh!


----------



## johnfv

Some guys in a band I knew were at an area "country store" to buy spurs for stage wear (this was the 80s). They got to talking with an old boy at the store that mentioned he had an old guitar in the closet at home he'd be willing to sell. Ended up being a '54 Strat in mint condition... I think they gave him like $400 for it. 

Good night boys....


----------



## sccloser

I had a friend that worked in a music store in the early 1980's. He said that people came in all the time with 60's and 70's strats I wanted humbuckers installed. He said that they would sell them entire loaded pickguard assemblies since they cost less than the labor and parts of swapping everything around. The customers almost always left the complete, original assemblies at the shop...did not want them back. This has been going on since the late 70's up until that time. All the original strat pickguard assemblies were kept in a drawers in file cabs. The guy that was the tech there was fired for some reason, and the owner was complaining about all the "junk" that that guy had hoarded. My buddy said he would be glad to haul it off for him. But my buddy only worked there part time, and before he could "dispose" of it properly...if you get my drift, the owner had thrown all of the stuff out! My buddy returned to work to find it all gone! Then when he went to throw out some trash, he saw the stuff in the dumpster! So now he is thinking that he will slip out after work and get it out and take it home. Nope. Trash truck came early that day and took it all away. He still talks about that.


----------



## sccloser

I almost got a 1958 strat from GC in San Diego for $500 in 1988. It was a re-fin and was hanging on the wall. I knew what it was because I had seen it before. But today, there was a new, unexperienced sales guy on the floor. I asked to see the strat, and he gladly got it down for me. I played it some...had a bad hum, but I overall liked it. I asked him what they wanted for it and he said it was a used guitar so just make an offer. I was a little surprised at this, but seeing as I had about $550 on me, I offered him $500 for it. I figured he would just laugh and say no, but he said that sounded good to him, and he would be right back as he had to go write it up. Now I am thinking I hit the jackpot here...but them he comes out with the Guitar Sales manager, a fellow I will never forget...Wolfgang Hopka...and he said, "NOOO! That is the '58 strat! It is $2500!" I did not get it.


----------



## MM54

sccloser said:


> I almost got a 1958 strat from GC in San Diego for $500 in 1988. It was a re-fin and was hanging on the wall. I knew what it was because I had seen it before. But today, there was a new, unexperienced sales guy on the floor. I asked to see the strat, and he gladly got it down for me. I played it some...had a bad hum, but I overall liked it. I asked him what they wanted for it and he said it was a used guitar so just make an offer. I was a little surprised at this, but seeing as I had about $550 on me, I offered him $500 for it. I figured he would just laugh and say no, but he said that sounded good to him, and he would be right back as he had to go write it up. Now I am thinking I hit the jackpot here...but them he comes out with the Guitar Sales manager, a fellow I will never forget...Wolfgang Hopka...and he said, "NOOO! That is the '58 strat! It is $2500!" I did not get it.



Okay, this one's just funny


----------



## sccloser

You know, it was funny even then...


----------



## sccloser

I did manage to buy a 1976 LP Standard from GC in 88 for $469. I still have the receipt. Guess who the sales guy was....yep, Wolfgang Hopka is clearly credited on the receipt for the sale.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know why I felt compelled to record this. I was messing around with that Ibanez RG5EX1 that I picked up for like $150. The rhythm is too bassy - that's not the guitar's fault. That was through the Vintage Modern and I'm really bad about recording that amp dark. The lead tone is the Fender Hot Rod Deville. IIRC I was using the Boss Mega Distortion on both amps. That might be why the rhythm track is so bassy - that pedal is the ultimate low-frequency distortion pedal. The Fender is running all NOS Sylvania tubes. V1 is a Sylvania 5751 from the 1950's - very similar to the one I'm including in Marty's tube giveaway. Anyway, excuse the playing as always. It's not one of my better efforts but I really like the way the HRDV recorded. I hope I'm not driving everybody crazy with these little 1 minute clips!! I wasn't really going for Mary Jane's Last Dance or Dani California. I just had that rhythm in my head.

mary jane.mp3


----------



## brp

I've been too busy to complete my NOS purchases, unfortunately.
But I have decided what I'm going to get now to start me off, so just a matter of having the time to make the orders and take care of payments.
I'm excited to hear what NOS can do for my amp's tone.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Sonic Blue? I had one that color once.


 That's it.....a pair of Teles in Seafoam Green and Sonic Blue....would be nice!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Congratulations!!! This thread went over 200,000 views.

We've had a lot of recent activity that helped boost the amount of views the thread received.

Thanks to all the regulars.


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## MM54




----------



## sccloser




----------



## MartyStrat54

I am anxious to receive my DARIO MiniWatts. It will probably be another week before I get them from Paris. They looked like they could be very close to NOS tubes.


----------



## MM54

Those are some nice looking tubes, Marty 

I've not seen a tube for quite a while, with being at college  Next time I'm home I'll open up my cabinet and say hello to them all


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I am anxious to receive my DARIO MiniWatts. It will probably be another week before I get them from Paris. They looked like they could be very close to NOS tubes.



Cant wait for the report Marty!

I have always been curious about Mini Watts.


----------



## sccloser

Rumor has it that the miniwatts are pretty good. I think you started that rumor, Marty...


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't gotten anything cool in awhile. Got a handful of 6BQ5's that are around 80 on the B&K. I usually like preamp tubes to be really strong, but the same isn't true with power tubes. Power tubes can still run for years at 80% and IMO they have a more mellow tone. The best-sounding 6L6GC's I've got are some old Sylvanias that test at around 85.

I did pick up a couple of pairs of old 6L6GC's (Sylvania and GE) and a single RCA black plate. There were a couple of pairs of EL34's - one Russian and one Chinese. 

Got to get me a Tweaker 15 again... I've got a bunch of 6P3S tubes coming from Russia. I think we're all waiting for international shipments.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How many is a bunch?


----------



## MartyStrat54

FYI-All of the Tone Lizard web pages are no longer available. I remember reading a message from him stating that he wasn't going to renew his server fees.

To bad. I liked his stuff and he was around for ever.


----------



## Lowlife

Are the Dario Miniwatts anything like the Philips ones?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How many is a bunch?



Eight pairs.


----------



## eljeffebrown

what is everyone's consensus on the Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH? my other guitar player needs a decent "clean" tube.


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> what is everyone's consensus on the Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH? my other guitar player needs a decent "clean" tube.



I find them a bit trebly or bright. Good in a dark or smooth amp. I'd pass in a bright amp if using it in V1 or the tone slot otherwise fine in other slots. I find the Mullard RI a lower gain or cleaner tube without the brightness of the EH. Might be a good choice...


----------



## Lowlife

eljeffebrown said:


> what is everyone's consensus on the Electro Harmonix 12AX7EH? my other guitar player needs a decent "clean" tube.



Decent, sure, i found them slightly lifeless and boring...may have been unlucky


----------



## MM54

For CP, I like the EH 12AX7's, they're bright, that's for sure. A little noisy, but I'm used to NOS so maybe that's to be expected.


----------



## RiverRatt

Lowlife said:


> Decent, sure, i found them slightly lifeless and boring...may have been unlucky



No, that's about how I would describe them as well.


----------



## 61rocker

I have found EH Tubes overall to be unreliable, cheaply manufactored, and they make my amp sound too bright and not full at all....go strong vintage or NOS...you'll thank all of us later.....


----------



## johnfv

IMO the EH is not bad, it depends on the amp and desired tone. The Mullard RI is nice, I like the Tung-Sol (hell, I like the JJ and Shuguang in the right application  ).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Are the Dario Miniwatts anything like the Philips ones?



Yeah they are Philips licensed tubes, just made in either France or Brazil. If you have ever used a Lorenz or BEL, you would like the DARIO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Eight pairs.



What made you want to buy Russian tubes? Just curious.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> What made you want to buy Russian tubes? Just curious.



To further enlighten Egnater Tweaker 15 users. I've already got 3 converts on here! Seriously, I popped a set of them (6P3S) into that Tweaker 15 I traded to Cody and it was like, WOW!  

You know how most tubes you can hear a difference, but it's usually more subtle, like smoother mids and highs or better bass? There's nothing subtle about these. It's more like a solid HELL YEAH! Everything about them sounds better. I tried just about everything except EL84's in that amp, and if I had a pair of Yellow Jackets I'd have done that, too. My old 1950's Tung-Sol 5881's were probably my second-favorite set in that amp. It seems to like the lower watt tubes in the 6V6 to 5881 range. I'm hoping I can fit a pair of KT66's in there.

I've already got a couple of guys who want a few sets and I was ordering some for my own personal use, so I ordered extras. I was thinking I'd sell the rest of them on eBay or maybe here. There's no outlet for them in the US - the only ones I see are from Russia. I got them in today's mail BTW. I'm going to try to pick up another Tweaker head first so I can test and audition them before I send them out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well every audiophile review I have ever read puts the 6P3S on the top of all 6L6 type tubes. These are the same tubes that Eric Clapton used in his amps. I think I still have four or five left from the three dozen I bought.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've read that before. Do you think he was running them in an unmodded 6L6GC circuit? I don't quite see how. An amp that used 5881's would probably work without any mods.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've seen where some claim that the 6P3S could be used in a GC circuit. I always sold them as a 5881 replacement. 

Maybe Eric's tech modded the amps for a 5881 tube and then used the 6P3S's.


----------



## sccloser

Well, I've almost got my taxes completed for 2010...I had an extension...

Every year for the last 3 years the company I write policies through wants to audit me right around tax time. So to keep from having to stress out I file an extension. For 2012, I am not supposed to be audited by my underwriter, so maybe I can get my taxes filed on time for once.

Haven't had time to tube hunt lately.


----------



## 61rocker

Interesting on those 6P3S tubes......I've almost pulled the trigger on a couple of Tweakers....maybe one day...I heard a guy using a 65 watt rig...I got to say it sounded awesome....Haven't had to time really tube hunt either....my budget has been cut into...insurance won't cover my meds...?? but...I'm heading home this weekend where my shop guy told me he is supposed to be doing a vintage amp retube and was going to save the pulls for me to look at....I've yet to find anyone in Memphis to buy pulls from.....I may have one lead today tho...nice little guitar shop in Collierville...they don't retube but have a guy who does....they have a '75 Fawn 1960A cab for $1249....couple of nice guitars sitting around too...I may have them put some bumblebee capacitors in my Les Paul....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've seen where some claim that the 6P3S could be used in a GC circuit. I always sold them as a 5881 replacement.
> 
> Maybe Eric's tech modded the amps for a 5881 tube and then used the 6P3S's.



There's a 6P3S-E that's supposed to be a little more robust.


----------



## blackone

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 


I want to roll some tubes, and I want to roll them now,
the problem is that when I play my tone just doesn't wow.
Speakers? well I changed 'em, along with thicker wire,
but still my vintage Marshall stack just doesn't bring the fire.
You'd think that 20 years of playing rock and blues and thrash, 
would give me some decent insight on where to spend my cash.
But idiots like me, you see, we spend it on some lass,
not by saving up the bucks for a set of older glass.
So here I am, all down and out, trying my best to win,
Marty's tube-o-rama contest that it seems no one else is in.
Who know's, maybe I'll get 'em, maybe it's a pipe dream,
but man, I know with Martys tubes my amp will surely scream.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How would you like to retube this 1964 Ampeg Portaflex amp, model B12XY? It was a single rail amp and only rated at a little over 30 watts with two 7027A's.

*1 x 5AR4
*1 x 7591
*2 x 6D10
*2 x 6SN7
*1 x 6SL7
*1 x 7199
*2 x 7027A


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## 61rocker

Speaking of Ampegs....Alan, is that you who has that Ampeg 100watt combo posted on the Jackson Craigslist....wish I could pop on that....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never played a guitar amp that used 7027A's. I've had some HiFi amps that used them. Anyone ever use say an Ampeg guitar amp with 7027A's? In a dual rail design they put out a lot of power.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that's mine. It's not nearly 100 watts, though. More like 35 - 40. It's only got a 2x6L6GC power section. Ampeg didn't push their output tubes quite as hard as Fender so the amps are a little cleaner. It's a different sounding amp that I like a lot but I need to unload it. It's never going to be a gigging amp and it's taking up too much space which I have very little of to begin with. With a Marshall half-stack and a Fender 2x12 combo it's just in the way no more than I use it.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I never played a guitar amp that used 7027A's. I've had some HiFi amps that used them. Anyone ever use say an Ampeg guitar amp with 7027A's? In a dual rail design they put out a lot of power.



Is that what the V4's use? I've set up one of them and stood in front of and beside it while it was being played, it's impressive. Some day I'd quite like to get my hands on a nice V4. LOUD and CLEAN! (And freaking heavy)


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I never played a guitar amp that used 7027A's. I've had some HiFi amps that used them. Anyone ever use say an Ampeg guitar amp with 7027A's? In a dual rail design they put out a lot of power.



Like I said, my Ampeg uses 6L6GC's. It's one of the more sane designs they had. It does have a 7199 phase inverter and uses a 6CG7 on the effects board. I never traced it out to see exactly what it does. There's the 6CG7 and two 12AX7's controlling reverb, tremolo and vibrato.

I sold RickyLee a pair of 7027A's for his Ampeg. He needed a quad but wanted those two I had anyway. He could probably give some good info on the subject.

Why in the hell did that amp use a single 7591???? Did it have two power sections?

I'd hate like hell to re-tube that thing. A 7591, 7199 and a pair of 7027A's could set you back $150 easily and that's the low end price-wise. The 6D10 is a pretty rare chunk of glass, too. That would be one of those little short Compactrons, right?


----------



## solarburn

blackone said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> 
> I want to roll some tubes, and I want to roll them now,
> the problem is that when I play my tone just doesn't wow.
> Speakers? well I changed 'em, along with thicker wire,
> but still my vintage Marshall stack just doesn't bring the fire.
> You'd think that 20 years of playing rock and blues and thrash,
> would give me some decent insight on where to spend my cash.
> But idiots like me, you see, we spend it on some lass,
> not by saving up the bucks for a set of older glass.
> So here I am, all down and out, trying my best to win,
> Marty's tube-o-rama contest that it seems no one else is in.
> Who know's, maybe I'll get 'em, maybe it's a pipe dream,
> but man, I know with Martys tubes my amp will surely scream.



Effort and creativity. Enjoyed this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

6D10 = Compactron. With all the 6SN7's and 6SL7, it makes me wonder what the hell they needed two Compactrons for?

The 6D10 is a three-section 12AT7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Effort and creativity. Enjoyed this.



Same here.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> 6D10 = Compactron. With all the 6SN7's and 6SL7, it makes me wonder what the hell they needed two Compactrons for?
> 
> The 6D10 is a three-section 12AT7.



I can understand that more than the 7591 being there. It just about has to be driving some sort of output. That's like finding a Marshall with EL34's and a single 6V6 installed.


----------



## blackone

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Effort and creativity. Enjoyed this.



thanks man, you know, the fact that Marty even had the thought to offer these things up speaks volumes about the type of guy he is, and also says a lot about the forum and it's members. Who says nothing's free anymore?


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I can't find an XY schematic. This is a more conventional Ampeg circuit from the XT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's an Ampeg bass amp from 1964 that could be modded for guitar (change tone cap values). This is somewhat like the amp I mentioned before, which was a JCM 2203 with 6SL7's for V1 and V2 and (2) 12AX7's for the TS/CF and PI. This circuit uses a 6SL7 as the PI.


----------



## RiverRatt

None of that clues me in to what that 7591A is doing in the XY amp. 

Here's the schematic from my amp. You can spot some common designs in the ones you posted.


----------



## mickeydg5

The Ampeg B12X & XY talk got me interested. I looked them up.

The B12X used two 6L6 power tubes (25 watt) and a 6V6 for reverb power stage. The B12XY was beefed up some with the 7027A power tubes (50 watt) and the 7591 for reverb power stage. The reverb units had there own output transformer to speaker connection.

The 7027A is a 6L6GC that can handle 600V 35W at the plate with a few pinout variations. I think Ampeg is the only company to use the 7027 variety for bass amps.


----------



## solarburn

blackone said:


> thanks man, you know, the fact that Marty even had the thought to offer these things up speaks volumes about the type of guy he is, and also says a lot about the forum and it's members. Who says nothing's free anymore?



Marshall forum is a great place to hang. Some of us like to have fun as we're gaining knowledge about our gear. Nothing like a little icing on the cake with the opportunity to win a nice set of tubes. Pretty damn cool.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> The Ampeg B12X & XY talk got me interested. I looked them up.
> 
> The B12X used two 6L6 power tubes (25 watt) and a 6V6 for reverb. The B12XY was beefed up some with the 7027A power tubes (50 watt) and the 7591 driving the reverb. The reverb units had there own output transformer to speaker connection.
> 
> The 7027A is a 6L6GC that can handle 600V at the plate with a few pinout variations. I think Ampeg is the only company to use the 7027 variety for bass amps.



Cool, thanks for the info. I wondered about a reverb driver but that's overkill. It seems overly complicated compared to what Fender was doing. They must have been using them wired for triode operation, that's the only way it makes sense. I guess they would outlast a 12AT7 running like that. Sometimes I think Ampeg engineers just wanted to be different.

I'd like to see that schematic if you run across it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is the XY schematic. I am not going to post the image as I think it is better if you just use the link.

http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_schematics/ampeg/ampeg_b12xy.gif


----------



## RiverRatt

Am I reading it right? They had the dry signal going to speakers 1 & 2 and the wet (reverb) signal going to speakers 3 and 4? How did the wet signal compete with the dry? That has to be one of the strangest reverb circuits I have ever seen.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is the XY schematic. I am not going to post the image as I think it is better if you just use the link.
> 
> http://www.turretboards.com/layouts_schematics/ampeg/ampeg_b12xy.gif


 

Yeh that is the one. I should not have said "drive the reverb" (fixed original thread). Those 6V6 and 7591 tubes were for the single ended power amp sections of the reverb.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never seen a reverb circuit like this. Separate speakers for the reverb and separate power for the reverb. I noticed that there were some other Ampeg amps that had a similar arrangement.


----------



## blackone

thought I'd post here with a possibly weird question. I have a russian built 60 watt head that uses 6N2P-EV pre-amp tubes and hear that they are essentially 12AX7 equivalent but with another ground pin? I have set of NOS tubes specifically for the amp, but was wondering if it's worth modding it to accept the usual 12ax7 tube, and even if it would make all that much difference tonaly?


----------



## sccloser

Been trying to buy some more Amperex ecc83's. Not having much luck so far.


----------



## RiverRatt

blackone said:


> thought I'd post here with a possibly weird question. I have a russian built 60 watt head that uses 6N2P-EV pre-amp tubes and hear that they are essentially 12AX7 equivalent but with another ground pin? I have set of NOS tubes specifically for the amp, but was wondering if it's worth modding it to accept the usual 12ax7 tube, and even if it would make all that much difference tonaly?



That's something I'd be interested in hearing, too. The wiki on them says you have to wire the heaters as 6.3V parallel instead of series, so yeah, that'd be four heater pins. It also says that the Sovtek 12AX7WA is derived from this tube. If they sound like a Sovtek WA, then just about any other 12AX7 should blow them out of the water. I'll bet the military 6N2P-EV is better than the Sovtek, though. 

Personally if it were my amp and originality wasn't a factor, I'd rewire it for 12AX7's. That would give you many more options tonally. I'd be willing to bet that you'd find a 12AX7 that sounded better in it than the 6N2P. If not, reverse the job and you're back to stock. 

Is this one of the Red Bear amps? I've played through a Sovtek MIG 50 with 12AX7s and it was very Marhsally. Needs to be cranked, too. Don't know about the Red Bear amps. I remember them, but never had the pleasure of playing through one.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Been trying to buy some more Amperex ecc83's. Not having much luck so far.



I feel your pain. If I'm buying, they are all going for $40 - $50. If I'm selling, they go for $25.

Check this out... it popped up on one of my saved eBay searches. This is the kind of stuff that keeps me going into junk (antique, whatever) stores all the time. His price is already about at my upper limit with the shipping being $20 and there only being one known Mullard. Mullard EL84's (7199's) don't sell for nearly as much as preamp tubes. The Realistic Lifetime tubes are most likely Matsushita although they used several brands. I've never seen a Mullard relabeled by Realistic, though.

http://r.ebay.com/xLkIyV


----------



## blackone

RiverRatt said:


> That's something I'd be interested in hearing, too. The wiki on them says you have to wire the heaters as 6.3V parallel instead of series, so yeah, that'd be four heater pins. It also says that the Sovtek 12AX7WA is derived from this tube. If they sound like a Sovtek WA, then just about any other 12AX7 should blow them out of the water. I'll bet the military 6N2P-EV is better than the Sovtek, though.
> 
> Personally if it were my amp and originality wasn't a factor, I'd rewire it for 12AX7's. That would give you many more options tonally. I'd be willing to bet that you'd find a 12AX7 that sounded better in it than the 6N2P. If not, reverse the job and you're back to stock.
> 
> Is this one of the Red Bear amps? I've played through a Sovtek MIG 50 with 12AX7s and it was very Marhsally. Needs to be cranked, too. Don't know about the Red Bear amps. I remember them, but never had the pleasure of playing through one.




yeah it's a red bear, it sounds great as it is, but it's been in storage for many years and I'm about to pull it out and start using it again. I have some tubes for it but I kinda wanted to see if i could make it a bit more verstaile


----------



## MartyStrat54

blackone-I would have to agree with Alan. Get rid of those 6N2P-EV's and run 12AX7's. Those 6N2P-EV's give you one tone to choose from and it ain't good. I have about 50 of those tubes. Nobody wants them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MARSHALL MANN-Did you ever get a hold of all those tubes you were asking about?


----------



## MartyStrat54

blackone said:


> yeah it's a red bear, it sounds great as it is, but it's been in storage for many years and I'm about to pull it out and start using it again. I have some tubes for it but I kinda wanted to see if i could make it a bit more verstaile



If you need any of the 6N2P-EV's let me know. I'll give you some. You just pay for postage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good. Everybody's waking up!

My wife's in the hospital. I need some cheering up. It may be nothing serious but you never know. Now that 2/3 of my lovely children are in bed, it's quieted down in the house and it's nice and peaceful. I think that's why I stay up so late. When they were young and naive you could kick them off to bed at 9 p.m. and snuggle up and get busy on the couch. Those days are long gone. Now they are more likely to stay up later than I do. I'm pretty tolerant. As long as they stay in their room, I'm not picky. I used to stay up and read until 1 a.m. when I was a kid.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my parents put all nine of us to bed at a set time. My oldest sister got some leeway on that. Most of the time it was 9 PM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm beyond waking up I'm near my bed time. I got really out of whack and was staying up till 3 or 4 AM CST. That was tearing me up. I finally got to where I am going to bed at around midnight.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Good. Everybody's waking up!
> 
> My wife's in the hospital. I need some cheering up. It may be nothing serious but you never know. Now that 2/3 of my lovely children are in bed, it's quieted down in the house and it's nice and peaceful. I think that's why I stay up so late. When they were young and naive you could kick them off to bed at 9 p.m. and snuggle up and get busy on the couch. Those days are long gone. Now they are more likely to stay up later than I do. I'm pretty tolerant. As long as they stay in their room, I'm not picky. I used to stay up and read until 1 a.m. when I was a kid.



Hang in there Alan and you and the kids take care of each other. Course I hope all will be well with your wife. Thoughts and prayers for her care and protection. Keep me posted...pm.


----------



## solarburn

I've got to get to work now boyz. Its FRIDAY! For me...


----------



## RiverRatt

She had a bad reaction to some benzodiazepam that our doctor prescribed about a month ago for restless leg syndrome. It's usually pretty safe in the dosage she was taking, but it was knocking her out - every night by 8 p.m. she was comatose. When the doctor took her off the meds, she went into full-blown withdrawal, plus her potassium bottomed out. She was a nervous wreck. They are working on the potassium first and there going to try to find something to bring her down off the bennies. It seems like we've been going from one crisis to another for the last year.


----------



## blackone

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you need any of the 6N2P-EV's let me know. I'll give you some. You just pay for postage.



Ha, thanks Marty, maybe. How hard would it be to convert to 12ax7's? I've done a few cap jobs and other small small mods so i'm handy with a soldering iron.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Good. Everybody's waking up!
> 
> My wife's in the hospital. I need some cheering up. It may be nothing serious but you never know. Now that 2/3 of my lovely children are in bed, it's quieted down in the house and it's nice and peaceful. I think that's why I stay up so late. When they were young and naive you could kick them off to bed at 9 p.m. and snuggle up and get busy on the couch. Those days are long gone. Now they are more likely to stay up later than I do. I'm pretty tolerant. As long as they stay in their room, I'm not picky. I used to stay up and read until 1 a.m. when I was a kid.



Shit Alan, I'm sorry man! Hang in there, and I hope she is better soon!

Hope this gets a smile on your face Brother,

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u2ZsoYWwJA]Louis C.K. "Why?" - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## thrawn86

RiverRatt said:


> She had a bad reaction to some benzodiazepam that our doctor prescribed about a month ago for restless leg syndrome. It's usually pretty safe in the dosage she was taking, but it was knocking her out - every night by 8 p.m. she was comatose. When the doctor took her off the meds, she went into full-blown withdrawal, plus her potassium bottomed out. She was a nervous wreck. They are working on the potassium first and there going to try to find something to bring her down off the bennies. It seems like we've been going from one crisis to another for the last year.



Sorry 'bout that bro. Try and hang in there.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found this when searching for info about Red Bear conversions. Maybe it'll help. It looks pretty simple.


----------



## RiverRatt

thrawn86 said:


> Sorry 'bout that bro. Try and hang in there.



Thanks, man. I don't like posting stuff for sympathy or doing the Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me thing. It's just hard to get into anything else when you've got some heavy shit like that weighing you down. This place usually takes my mind off that stuff for awhile. That's what I like about it. Sometimes I think hanging out here and playing guitar are about my last hold on sanity. I don't mean to be so dark, It's just been a rough year. It's amazing what the human soul or conscience is able to absorb, but with crisis after crisis after crisis, it gets hard to have a positive outlook and believe that tomorrow may be better.


----------



## thrawn86

Dude, don't even worry about it. We'd rather you spill it in here than out of your veins. The last year was rough on us too, seeing as how my wife had so many problems with carrying our last baby. Things are better now, but for a while it felt so hopeless for us as well. I may not know exactly how you guys are feeling, but I, and others, can indeed sympathize with you. 

Music lets us bleed. Like nothing else.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkbQDChgmX8&ob=av2e]Cold - Bleed ft. Aaron Lewis - YouTube[/ame]
_.....to set me free, to let me bleed....._


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, man. I don't like posting stuff for sympathy or doing the Poor, Poor, Pitiful Me thing. It's just hard to get into anything else when you've got some heavy shit like that weighing you down. This place usually takes my mind off that stuff for awhile. That's what I like about it. Sometimes I think hanging out here and playing guitar are about my last hold on sanity. I don't mean to be so dark, It's just been a rough year. It's amazing what the human soul or conscience is able to absorb, but with crisis after crisis after crisis, it gets hard to have a positive outlook and believe that tomorrow may be better.



Sounds like you are hitting rough waters. I hope time will be on your side, and once she gets better your relationship will be stronger for the hardness you've been through.


----------



## solarburn

Morn'n Gents! Its good to be on my weekend hehe. Heard it was going to be sunny today. That's a good thing. Maybe I'll get time over the next couple of days to try some amps out at the local GC. i want to demo a VM and see why Tubestack and Alan dig on them. Plus its been awhile since I lit a fire with a Marshall. I feel like ravaging one.


----------



## blackone

RiverRatt said:


> I found this when searching for info about Red Bear conversions. Maybe it'll help. It looks pretty simple.
> 
> I did see that once before actually so thanks for posting it. It does look pretty simple. I'll take some photos of the guts later tonight and see what you guys think


----------



## thrawn86

Hey Joe (he he, that sounds cool every time), what's the Wilder pedal? I missed something.....


----------



## 61rocker

You got my support and prayers Alan.....Peace Bro.....


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Been trying to buy some more Amperex ecc83's. Not having much luck so far.


 I found some Hammond Branded Amperex that I bid on.....kind of can't afford it...not sure how to put up the link but seach Amperex, I'm sure you can find it....but it ends today in about six hours....if I do win...I'll be interested in how they'll sound in both of my amps...I have bought from the seller before...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are these the one's?


----------



## 61rocker

That's them...someone bailed me out.....what's your take on them Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What? Are you done bidding on them? They'll probably bring at least $50.


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah, my money's a little tight right now.....that's why I haven't gotten those Raytheons...go for it Big M.....I thought SC might see it as well.....


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Hey Joe (he he, that sounds cool every time), what's the Wilder pedal? I missed something.....



His new pedal. Its in prototype form right now. The clip is his pedal into the clean side of his Dual Classic.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16771514/ucn.mp3


----------



## thrawn86

solarburnDSL50 said:


> His new pedal. Its in prototype form right now. The clip is his pedal into the clean side of his Dual Classic.
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/16771514/ucn.mp3



Wow. Niiiiiice!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> What? Are you done bidding on them? They'll probably bring at least $50.



I did a final bid of $52.99 on them. I wasn't that interested in them. They went for $53.99. If I had done a snipe bid, I probably would have won them.


----------



## 61rocker

I saw that....I try to sneak 'em under the radar gun.....I've won a couple of RCAs at 9.99....and those RFTs a while back....but most of the time they get discovered....there's a NOS Amperex listed too...I had $12.50 on it but someone found it.....I may up that bid tho...
NOS Amperex Bugle Boy ECC83 12AX7 Round Getter Tube Tes... It's getting out of my range now...I had $23 on it.......that's about all I can go on tubes at this time.... so there it is if you want to check it out....


----------



## RiverRatt

Nobody's spending as much money on tubes. You can really see it if you sell a few from time to time. Even the really good stuff isn't bringing nearly what it was 2 years ago.

I don't like this economic trend. It's really scary right now trying to run a business. Nobody is spending money. I keep thinking it'll turn around, but more and more places are closing. I'm still able to flip gear and make a little money at that, but not nearly as much as before. I used to be pretty good at flipping amps and guitars and making a few hundred here and there. Now it's maybe $50 over cost.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I rarely go after a single tube. If it is a real good deal and the postage is fair, I might do it. I get most of my tubes from guys who do organ pulls. One guy had eight new 6SL7's (GE) and he sold them for $22. I should have snagged them, but they just aren't in demand. I get all of my Sylvania and Raytheon tubes from a guy in New Jersey.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah the economy sucks and it will be a long time before it gets better. The current government has down nothing to produce jobs. That Obama bill got thrashed in the Senate. You would think they would try some sort of WPA program like they did in the past.

I lost half of my savings when all of the stocks crashed.

Regardless, there won't be any real change two years from now, except gas will cost more.


----------



## 61rocker

One tech back home that I approached about buying pulls, said that he usually just throws them away....I asked him if he tested them....he was like...No....I am going to call him back, he sounded open minded about letting me come in sometime...my other guy is glad to get a few extra bucks cash....he has a small shop that he does guitar work and his partner does the amp work....nice guys...I don't mind spending $10 for a vintage working tube...so far I've gotten a nice old Mullard, Tungsram, RCA 7025 that sounds nice in my SuperLead, and a couple of others....I'll drop by there Saturday...still looking for that nice stash...he has some 12au7s, and 12at7s too...one was a Tung Sol I think...RCAs....GEs...most were blackplates....Alan said it...times are scary tough....people want to sell high, but when I try to sell something...it's talk you down time then....


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a little music store in a town not too far away from here for a Saturday drive who will let me go through his pulls. He boxes them and labels them, so it's not bad. I posted the batch I got from him a few pages back. I bought an Amperex 12AX7 and a couple of pairs of old 6L6GC's from him. I asked him "How much?" and he though about it and said "$20.". If I'd known that, I would have walked out with a lot more. He didn't want to sell all of them because he said he sometimes uses them in customer's amps. Really nice guy.


----------



## 61rocker

K.....I've said it before, but sometimes I can't believe what people take out and leave as compared to what is put back in .......they just want new tubes.....


----------



## RiverRatt

I shudder to think what tubes I may have given away back when I was young and ignorant. I traded in a Sound City half stack for a Crate G40C back in the 1980's because the salesman told me the tubes were going bad in it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are these the one's?



I've bought tubes from this guy before (fadedgypsy) and I would recommend him. I bought some Raytheon 12ax7's and one of the mica's came loose during shipping. He sent a replacement (including shipping) for free. Great seller.


----------



## 61rocker

Ouch....I sold off a '70 Super Lead in N'ville in the '80s.....sure would like that one back....never had a thought about what tubes were in it.....Gotta work tomorrow so it's crash time.....weekend off....and next weekend too....woohoo.....


----------



## johnfv

So is that what Marshall Forum is all about? A place for all of us that at some point in our lives sold a Marshall that we wish we still had? Have I mentioned my 1982 JCM800 4104 recently???


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Ouch....I sold off a '70 Super Lead in N'ville in the '80s.....sure would like that one back....never had a thought about what tubes were in it.....Gotta work tomorrow so it's crash time.....weekend off....and next weekend too....woohoo.....



Probably all Mullards. Easily $400 worth of tubes nowadays.


----------



## johnfv

Alan, how is your wife doing? Improved I hope...


----------



## Marshall Mann

johnfv said:


> So is that what Marshall Forum is all about? A place for all of us that at some point in our lives sold a Marshall that we wish we still had? Have I mentioned my 1982 JCM800 4104 recently???



Or my 2203, or Park 75 and 1210....


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Alan, how is your wife doing? Improved I hope...



Yeah, she was lot better today. Thanks for asking. I need to move on past this, or at least posting about it. Sorry to all, I know I need to cut back on the personal drama.


----------



## solarburn

Well then...I've got my tube ready to go for the weiner...I mean winner of Marty's contest. You know...the "I stuff my tubes into whatever slots I want contest! Right? Man Marty's a pervert! 

There's been a few admissions so far but I have to say someone is going to get some choice 12AX7/ECC83's hehe. 

I want to keep mine a surprise but I also want to put some hints out to what it is...sooooo

I'll say its from a decade that a popular TV series is named after...?


----------



## solarburn

I need to go get me an Ultimate Cheeseburger from Jack n the Crack. Chow time.


----------



## plexilespaul

can any body recommend a preamp with strong mid range???


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall JMP-1

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a smartass - you meant tubes I'm sure. I'm not up to speed yet. BEL tubes have a nice punchy midrange. RFT's and Mullards are a little darker. I kinda like the bark that a good Ei has, too. It's different, maybe a little more upper mids.


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> Yeah, my money's a little tight right now.....that's why I haven't gotten those Raytheons...go for it Big M.....I thought SC might see it as well.....



I may have bid on them...been looking for Amperex tubes.


----------



## 61rocker

SC.....There's another one I put a link up for...I did bid on it today...but it's not a big deal if I win or not...it's NOS tho......if you go back a few of my posts you'll see the link....


----------



## 61rocker

Alan....OK with me if you talk about that....Peace Bro.....it's more here than just guys typing.....I think I saw the my first EI new tubes listed...it was on ebay buried on the last page of 12ax7 tubes....EI Elites......


----------



## RiverRatt

Fuck yeah! Seams and all! Do a search on eBay for Ei Elite and you'll get a lot of hits. Thanks dude, you made my day!


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## MartyStrat54

When I bought my 1999 DSL401, it had Ei power and preamp tubes. When I retubed in 2004, I was able to get the exact same tubes. My 2005 DSL401 came with JJ's (and one was bad) for power and Marshall Shuguang for preamps.


----------



## RiverRatt

My DSL was made in 2000 and still had a couple of the Marshall Ei tubes in the preamp. They were using the real Svetlana EL34's then.

Marty, think you could get some samples from that store that did the Northern Electric? It may not be possible yet. Those may be leaked. Their website isn't active yet, although it has changed recently. I'm definitely going to bookmark it and keep checking.

http://www.eitubes.com/


----------



## solarburn

avivoni said:


> can any body recommend a preamp with strong mid range???



Here are some NOS that do.

AMPEREX, PHILIPS, MAZDA and other Holland/France/Belgium made NOS: These tubes are a great balance of a clean, airy top end, nice midrange warmth, and accurate bass. They are very pleasant, clean, and musical to listen to in hi-fi applications. Unlike other clean European tubes, these break-up impressively when overdriven in a guitar amp. Check out the Mazda 12AX7S silver plates for critical phono preamp or microphone preamp duties. These tubes are dead quiet, with a great sense of air and dynamics, with incredible speed and impact. The Philips Miniwatt series, usually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that produced the Amperex Bugleboy tubes, are a great alternative to the increasingly rare Bugleboy. They are identical internally, carry the same factory code markings, and sound the same. These Holland tubes can often be found, sometimes made for other brands or OEM labelled for amplifiers, when the Bugleboys cannot. The rare longplate versions are the same sonically, but with even more soundstage space and detail. The rare French Mazda has the air and sparkle of the Telefunken, the touch of warmth of the Amperex, and adds a nice bit of dynamic punch to the sound.

MULLARD, GENALEX, BRIMAR, and other British made NOS: Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions. The top end is silky and pleasant, without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism. The rare longplates and Genalex versions have an eye-popping huge soundstage, razor sharp focus and detail, and an uncolored top end while retaining the warmth of the lower priced versions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got bad news for you. If you go to:

http://www.tube-shop.com/usa/store/search.asp

And click on either the 7 or 8 tube Ei replacement. You will see that it says, "all tubes made in China." Sounds like the new Ei EL34's and ECC83's are just more Chinese tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I looked but I couldn't find anything that didn't say "Made in Yugoslavia", not with the 12AX7E.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if the Chinese are relabeling Ei tubes, I don't think there is going to be a YUGO brand as well. I think it is just like the "new" Amperex. Nothing more than Chinese tubes. In another three years, we all will be using Northern Electrics anyways.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And a quad of PM EL34's is $163. That's in Winged C territory.


----------



## blackone

I had bought 16 sovtek (Russian) 12ax7's on a music 123 deal about a year or two ago, they cost me about 3 bucks each. Are these any good? or should I just make a clock out of them?


----------



## 61rocker

Hmmmm....Chinese....why am I not surprised....I have a pair of PM labeled Shuguangs...I posted it before...I only bought two...I put them in with 2 Teslas for a test run....strong and powerful....Here's something weird...Marty you know I let those Amperex go last nite...and bid on another, that I'm letting go....but I get in Little Rock tonite...and the RCA tube my nephew gave me is an Amperex....lol....testing very strong and balanced....seams and all....close to NOS.....wow.....


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> And a quad of PM EL34's is $163. That's in Winged C territory.


 Correct me if I'm wrong but the lower priced PM like mine are Chinese, and the Higher priced ones are Russian...and I thought I read somewhere they were =c=......if you look on the box there is Russian, Chinese and Slovkia with boxes in front of the words where they are to be checked for the country they are from....did that make sense???


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if the Chinese are relabeling Ei tubes, I don't think there is going to be a YUGO brand as well. I think it is just like the "new" Amperex. Nothing more than Chinese tubes. In another three years, we all will be using Northern Electrics anyways.



Damn, and I thought I was in a black mood lately. That's depressing. I sent an email to someone who should know.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but the lower priced PM like mine are Chinese, and the Higher priced ones are Russian...and I thought I read somewhere they were =c=......if you look on the box there is Russian, Chinese and Slovkia with boxes in front of the words where they are to be checked for the country they are from....did that make sense???



The Winged C tubes are the real Svetlanas. Sovtek somehow bought the rights to the name in the US market, that's why you can only get Winged C's here. Anywhere else in the world, you're buying real Svetlana with the Svetlana name on it. Otherwise it's Sovtek BS. None of this tube shit makes sense.


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> ...but I get in Little Rock tonite...and the RCA tube my nephew gave me is an Amperex....lol....testing very strong and balanced....seams and all....close to NOS.....wow.....



Well I used to say that the later RCA's weren't anything special. I guess I need to rephrase that, because most later RCA's were Mullards, Ei's and Amperex.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> When I bought my 1999 DSL401, it had Ei power and preamp tubes. When I retubed in 2004, I was able to get the exact same tubes. My 2005 DSL401 came with JJ's (and one was bad) for power and Marshall Shuguang for preamps.


My dsl 401 is a 2003. It had what I believe were some marshall marked Chinese 12ax7's, and it had a realistic tube in it as well. Not all of those were probably original, but it did have Ei el84's.


----------



## sccloser

I'm liking the Amperex 12ax7's I have. One was made in Germany, which you guys Id'd as most probably a Valvo..it's currently v1 in my mkiii. I have a holland made amperex in my dsl 401 v1 right now and am liking it.

Still running the Tele ribbed in v1 and tele smooth i v2 of the 2205 right now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When I replaced my Ei EL84's in 2004, I kept the old Ei tubes. Soon after, I got a B and K tube tester. At some point, I decided to test the Ei's. They were all at around 83. In 2009, I sold them on EBAY for over $60. 

In my DSL401, I run a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in V1 and a High Gain Raytheon Black Plate in V2. V3 is an Electrohome 7025 and V4 is a Sylvania Gray Plate. Power tubes are Canadian RCA 6BQ5's. It's probably been a year since I turned this amp on. That's the problem when you have a bunch of amps. I've sold five of them and I still have a bunch. What was funny was in the process of getting some of my vintage Peavey amps ready for sale, I fired them up and remembered why I was a hard core Peavey man back in the early to mid 70's. The kid that bought my MACE head absolutely loved it. I still have a Deuce and Heritage. The Deuce is so old, it doesn't have Scorpion speakers. The Deuce is a 120 watt amp and the Heritage is a 60 watt amp (6L6GC). Peavey took the power section of the MACE and put an all tube preamp in front of it and made the Festival series amp. You can usually pick one up for around $300. I had an original 1974 Peavey Mace Black Widow 212 Combo. That bitch was heavy. Those Black Widows weighed around 22 pounds each. Plus the power tranny on the MACE was as big as a shoe box. I feel the original MACE sounded better than the 2nd GEN version. The original had all silver knobs and the 2nd GEN had the colored knobs. That was the same amp that Neal Schon of Journey used. He played through 2, Peavey MACE 212 combo's. "Ever hear two speakers cranked with a 160 watt amp?"

I switched over to Marshall in 1984. I moved to Phoenix and you couldn't get into a band unless you had a 2203 or 2204. The 2203 and a full stack was considered a standard for auditioning. This relationship lasted for six years.

Got into Fender Bassman's for nine years and then I downsized. That's when I bought the DSL401. Then I got into a TSL122 in 2004 and then came a whole bunch of Marshall's. I had 11 Marshall amps in 2009. Way to many to play as I quickly had my favorites and that is what gets plugged in.

End of story.


----------



## sccloser

I had a 2nd gen Mace amp back in the late 80's with my second band. It was a cool amp. I bought it to replace my peavey Classic because I wanted to be louder!LOL!
That MACE was heavy as crap. But it really rocked. I had a brief interlude with Fenders then I bought a Marshall 2205 and been a Marshall guy ever since. I did have a mkii boogie head, and a couple of others in between, but always stuck with Marshalls in the end.


----------



## sccloser

I tried a few of the Carvins out as well. I found them to be very good amps and I could use them with confidence, but they ain't no Marshall!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, in 1974, the economy sucked sort of like how it is now. By luck, I got a job at 19 on the Santa Fe railroad. I was making really good money. I bought a brand new 1974 Cherry Sunburst Les Paul Custom and a new 1974 Peavey MACE 212 Combo. Peavey then came out with a high powered all solid state amp, the Renown and I bought it as well. I had Peavey's top two amps. The Renown was actually a great sounding amp. It came with Scorpion speakers. I played them everyday side by side and I was happy with both of them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, I was always getting stuff from Carvin in the mail and I used to sort of get excited about their products and prices, but I never bought one piece of Carvin gear.


----------



## thrawn86

My 2002 was stock, I assume.....I got it around 2006/2007, and it had Ei's and Marshall-labeled preamps. Seller told me he had retubed once......i now know he was a liar. I think the BR was going out on it intermittently, so he sold it. Easy fix, and now I own his fire breathing dragon!


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> You know, I was always getting stuff from Carvin in the mail and I used to sort of get excited about their products and prices, but I never bought one piece of Carvin gear.



I bought all my Carvin gear used. It usually does not bring much in the used market and is a great value. I started out getting Carvin heads for back ups for my Marshall. I had a x-100b with el34's from about 1991 and a MTS 3200 which could take el34, 5881 or 6L6 tubes. Later I picked up a Carvin Belair which sounded more like a Fender than most Fenders... I found these to be true of all the Carvins I have owned or tried out:

1. They have very nice clean channels
2. No matter what the claim, they do not sound like a Marshall
3. They have great low end 
4. They have very interactive eq's
5. They have very nice reverb
6. The clean channel has lots of headroom
7. They are loud
8. They are built like tanks and are reliable
9. The pots tend to get scratchy with age

If I could find a Carvin that could match the tone and growl I get from my Marshalls, I would probably use it as amp #1. The only time I came close to using one live was when I was thinking of running one for cleans only and switching between it and my Marshall with an ABY switch, but I never did that live because cleans are not that important to my style.


----------



## plexilespaul

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Here are some NOS that do.
> 
> AMPEREX, PHILIPS, MAZDA and other Holland/France/Belgium made NOS: These tubes are a great balance of a clean, airy top end, nice midrange warmth, and accurate bass. They are very pleasant, clean, and musical to listen to in hi-fi applications. Unlike other clean European tubes, these break-up impressively when overdriven in a guitar amp. Check out the Mazda 12AX7S silver plates for critical phono preamp or microphone preamp duties. These tubes are dead quiet, with a great sense of air and dynamics, with incredible speed and impact. The Philips Miniwatt series, usually made in the same Heerlen, Holland factory that produced the Amperex Bugleboy tubes, are a great alternative to the increasingly rare Bugleboy. They are identical internally, carry the same factory code markings, and sound the same. These Holland tubes can often be found, sometimes made for other brands or OEM labelled for amplifiers, when the Bugleboys cannot. The rare longplate versions are the same sonically, but with even more soundstage space and detail. The rare French Mazda has the air and sparkle of the Telefunken, the touch of warmth of the Amperex, and adds a nice bit of dynamic punch to the sound.
> 
> MULLARD, GENALEX, BRIMAR, and other British made NOS: Like a warm British jacket of the finest tweed, these glorious tubes have an attractive sweet warmth in their midrange and lower regions. The top end is silky and pleasant, without being rolled-off. The best of these tubes retain a fine sense of "air" at the top, and the upper midrange is smooth and liquid. These tubes reproduce the human voice, especially female voices, with haunting realism. The rare longplates and Genalex versions have an eye-popping huge soundstage, razor sharp focus and detail, and an uncolored top end while retaining the warmth of the lower priced versions.


thanks for the indepth review man. i will go for an old nos mullard tube a friend of mine has and talk him into selling it to me. i heard that 
in a jcm 800 and it had that creamy tone with the midrange i am looking for. your review strengthen that..
thanks


----------



## solarburn

avivoni said:


> thanks for the indepth review man. i will go for an old nos mullard tube a friend of mine has and talk him into selling it to me. i heard that
> in a jcm 800 and it had that creamy tone with the midrange i am looking for. your review strengthen that..
> thanks



You're welcome avivoni. The above info is from a tube site I know and gives an idea of what some of these NOS may sound like.

First thing I thought of was a Mullard or a Miniwatt which is a Philips made tube.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I used to say that the later RCA's weren't anything special. I guess I need to rephrase that, because most later RCA's were Mullards, Ei's and Amperex.


I still have to give the taste test.....I brought my 2210 down for that....


----------



## johnfv

So... up too late again because I had a gig tonight. Anybody awake still?


----------



## 61rocker

johnfv said:


> So... up too late again because I had a gig tonight. Anybody awake still?


 Bet you're asleep now...I woke up about that time and then got on messenger....anyway...I haven't gigged since December...I need to get back out there....my new band is almost ready...goes a little slow cause I'm in Memphis and I play in Little Rock...it's sounding good tho....


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> The Winged C tubes are the real Svetlanas. Sovtek somehow bought the rights to the name in the US market, that's why you can only get Winged C's here. Anywhere else in the world, you're buying real Svetlana with the Svetlana name on it. Otherwise it's Sovtek BS. None of this tube shit makes sense.


 Yeah....I was saying that on PM componants tubes.....I think the Russian ones they rebrand and pair up (or quad up) are real Svetlanas or =C=....I don't have the box in front of me but they distribute Chinese, Russian, and I said Slovac, but it may actually be Yugo tubes....I'll check it when I get home...the glass on those Shuguangs is huge....


----------



## RiverRatt

Dang, that's a long haul for a gig.


----------



## 61rocker

I know....I played with two of these guys for over ten years....after I moved to Memphis from Nashville, I said I'd give it a go....then gas went up....but my family is here to...so I drive down about three times a month.....the other guitar player has some cool gear...a 78 JMP 2203 w/cab...an 83 4103 combo I used to own....and a Vintage Modern he picked up a while back...he plays the VM mostly....it's a nice amp...I nearly bought one last year but I found my Les Paul.....I think I heard choir music when I walked upon it at Sam Ash....Scott has a nice guitar collection going too...I'm heading out to the shop to try to find preamp tubes.....


----------



## Sebat

Hi, new here. I am thinking about getting new tubes for my amp, I have a JCM 900 sl-x, I think its the 50 watt version.. will have to check it again when I am at the practice place. Anyway, my pre amp tubes are still the ones in it when I bought the thing back in the 90's.... 

I am thinking of replacing the pre amp tubes and the power ones.. I need advice.

I love metal, the heavy stuff, death/black/doom etc...


----------



## 61rocker

Welcome...I'm not a tech....but I'm sure one will see your post .....and we all may recommend what works for us....but I for one say try some vintage or NOS tubes....I promise when you find the ones that work for you....you'll thank us....your tone will come alive.....I like for Power tubes....Teslas or RFTs....preamps...it's wide open...RCA, Telefunkins, Amperex, Raytheons, Sylvanias..Mullards.....I love Mazdas, tho the good ones are hard to find and very pricey....Marty or RiverRatt or one of the more knowledgable techs here can explain the brands better than me....one last note...even used vintage tubes I get test as strong or stronger that almost all of the new current productions ones I've compared them with.....just my take....it's one more by tone and sound than technical knowledge....BTW...How do you like that SL/X....and does it have EL34s or 5881 tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Please don't call me a tech. I don't want to be damned to hell for my lack of knowledge by the Tech Police. They are always watching. My standard disclaimer: I am not a tech nor do I play one on the internet.

Are you unhappy with the sound of your amp? It probably came with some good tubes in it, being as how old it was. Can you give us a description of what's already in your preamp and power amp? They may still be fine if they don't have thousands of hours on them. I'd have someone test the tubes if you have access to someone with a good tube tester. The filter caps may need changing worse than the tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If your amp has two big tubes, it is a 50 watt amp. If it has four, it is a 100 watt amp.

Like Ratt said, you may need your filter caps replaced. At the very least, you may have Ei tubes in your amp. Does your big tubes have a glass nipple on the top?

If you have a good digital camera, you could take some close ups of the tubes and we can probably ID them for you. Try to get the picture at least as good as this one.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think at that time they would have been using Tesla EL34's. I think they only used Ei for the EL84's and ECC83's.


----------



## sccloser

I think most of the CP (current Production) power tubes are pretty decent. If you use el34's, I think the JJ's are pretty good and I like the =C= tubes, but they can get pricey. 

For preamp tubes (12ax7), the best CP tubes IMO are the Tung Sols. If you like a darker tone, the jj's are pretty good as well. The Chinese Shuguangs are OK as well and generally have pretty high gain. Sovteks tend to be pretty good tubes but do not sound very good IMO. Best bet for preamp tubes is NOS or vintage. If you can run across some of the Ei's they would sound good. I am kinda liking amperex tubes right now myself. A tube combo of choice in this thread is a NOS Mullard n v1 and probably a Raytheon black plate in v2. The mullards I have tried sound very good, but they tend to be real smooth. I have some telefunkens that are real nice, but again real smooth. Good for solo work. But for rhythm, I like a little more edge and thus I tend to like the Amperex.

Martystrat, Riverratt, solarburndsl50 and Marshallman are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Please don't call me a tech. I don't want to be damned to hell for my lack of knowledge by the Tech Police. They are always watching. My standard disclaimer: I am not a tech nor do I play one on the internet.
> 
> Are you unhappy with the sound of your amp? It probably came with some good tubes in it, being as how old it was. Can you give us a description of what's already in your preamp and power amp? They may still be fine if they don't have thousands of hours on them. I'd have someone test the tubes if you have access to someone with a good tube tester. The filter caps may need changing worse than the tubes.



You do not have to be a tech to recognize good tone or to know what components to use to get it. That seems to be more of an exercise in trial and error than anything.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Martystrat, Riverratt, solarburndsl50 and Marshallman are much more knowledgeable than I on this subject.



We all started off the same, dude. Go back and look at the early pages. I didn't know an RCA from a GE back then.


----------



## RiverRatt

My obsession with tubes did start long ago, but it was just tube amps in general. I knew the different numbers and what amps used them, but I never really paid much attention to the tone back then. That was because there were still plenty of NOS that people were practically giving away. Vintage tubes and vintage amps just never really took off like vintage guitars did. Yeah, tubes and tube amps are worth more now as collectables, but there was nowhere near the jump in prices that guitars went through at the same time. If I had to guess at a reason, tubes and amps are both going to wear out. Guitars last much longer. Still, I think it is amazing that I can take a glass bottle with electrical components sealed in vacuum in it that was made over 60 years ago and put it in a modern amp and not only does it work, it sounds amazing. 

Speaking of glass bulbs in a vacuum, did I mention that I found several boxes of lamps at the TV shop I raided? I'm keeping the #55's but I probably have a dozen others if anybody needs a weird lamp. I also got several Sonotone and other various phonograph cartridges.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I think at that time they would have been using Tesla EL34's. I think they only used Ei for the EL84's and ECC83's.



That's probably true, but I have come across three Marshall heads with Ei nipple tip EL34's in the amps. In every instance, the power tubes were still good. However, I could not verify whether they were OE from the factory.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's probably true, but I have come across three Marshall heads with Ei nipple tip EL34's in the amps. In every instance, the power tubes were still good. However, I could not verify whether they were OE from the factory.



Yeah, the coding system didn't come into play until after the Ei supply was gone. I think their may have been a few Ei ECC83's with a VLVE code, but I haven't run across any.


----------



## Sebat

RiverRatt said:


> Are you unhappy with the sound of your amp? It probably came with some good tubes in it, being as how old it was. Can you give us a description of what's already in your preamp and power amp? They may still be fine if they don't have thousands of hours on them. I'd have someone test the tubes if you have access to someone with a good tube tester. The filter caps may need changing worse than the tubes.


 
I am starting a new project that is a bit more "stoner" than my previous band was, and have been messing around with my sound. One of the things I notice is how much treble I seem to have in my sound. I run the bass knob all the way up and still it just doesnt have much low end. That is until I turn up both gains up past 9 and the volume has to be about there too.. then it sounds good. Thus the reason I think something is wrong with my tubes.. it isnt as rich and full as it used to be... ha ha... dont get me wrong its not a "tin" machine, but when I play around with other amps, when you turn the bass knob up, it seems to have much more effect than it does on mine.

The other reason is that I want my amp to have as much gain as it can. In the past I have used and Ibanez tube king as a distortion pedal and loved the sound... but honestly I want my amp to have as much gain as possible, and use a fuzz pedal for some dynamics and such with leads etc.... 





MartyStrat54 said:


> If your amp has two big tubes, it is a 50 watt amp. If it has four, it is a 100 watt amp.
> 
> Like Ratt said, you may need your filter caps replaced. At the very least, you may have Ei tubes in your amp. Does your big tubes have a glass nipple on the top?
> 
> If you have a good digital camera, you could take some close ups of the tubes and we can probably ID them for you. Try to get the picture at least as good as this one.


 
I will be able to get my amp tomorrow, and I will take some pictures and figure out which amp I have.



61rocker said:


> Welcome...I'm not a tech....but I'm sure one will see your post .....and we all may recommend what works for us....but I for one say try some vintage or NOS tubes....I promise when you find the ones that work for you....you'll thank us....your tone will come alive.....I like for Power tubes....Teslas or RFTs....preamps...it's wide open...RCA, Telefunkins, Amperex, Raytheons, Sylvanias..Mullards.....I love Mazdas, tho the good ones are hard to find and very pricey....Marty or RiverRatt or one of the more knowledgable techs here can explain the brands better than me....one last note...even used vintage tubes I get test as strong or stronger that almost all of the new current productions ones I've compared them with.....just my take....it's one more by tone and sound than technical knowledge....BTW...How do you like that SL/X....and does it have EL34s or 5881 tubes?


 
Honestly I have always felt blessed to have the SL/X! I will figure out what is in it as soon as I can get to the rehearsal space and figure out what is in there and such...



thanks so much everyone for your responses, I will do my best on my end, and thank you so much for your input, its awesome!


----------



## brp

What do you guys make of these?

BLOWOUT SALE AT COST - Slovakian ECC803S Tall Plates with Chrome Flanges

_
"We did not hesitate to prepay when our trusted source from Europe offered NOS Tesla ECC803S in quantity at very attractive price. After getting the tubes, we have discovered that these are NOT Original NOS Tesla ECC803S. We have no idea of when and where these were produced in Slovakia. "_


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> What do you guys make of these?
> 
> BLOWOUT SALE AT COST - Slovakian ECC803S Tall Plates with Chrome Flanges
> 
> _
> "We did not hesitate to prepay when our trusted source from Europe offered NOS Tesla ECC803S in quantity at very attractive price. After getting the tubes, we have discovered that these are NOT Original NOS Tesla ECC803S. We have no idea of when and where these were produced in Slovakia. "_




JJ 803S I've tried. Liked the tone but the tube lasted maybe an hour. Interesting they can't figure out when and where in Slovakia.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got this from the TubeDepot:

Thanks for your email. Ei will not be producing tubes anymore. Any Ei product is now considered NOS. We do not have stock anymore. Letr me know if I can be of further assistance.


----------



## Lowlife

what a pity, where will all that sweet sweet telefunken tube producing equiptment end up now?

Uh uh, Marty buy it, and make your own tubes, wouldn't that be awesomeness?


----------



## MM54

Lowlife said:


> what a pity, where will all that sweet sweet telefunken tube producing equiptment end up now?
> 
> Uh uh, Marty buy it, and make your own tubes, wouldn't that be awesomeness?



I've suggested before that we buy it as a forum and make our own tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd be good at sucking a vacuum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I got this from the TubeDepot:
> 
> Thanks for your email. Ei will not be producing tubes anymore. Any Ei product is now considered NOS. We do not have stock anymore. Letr me know if I can be of further assistance.



How can I consider Chinese Ei as NOS?


----------



## thrawn86

We need to pool our dough and buy an old factory, then reproduce authentic Mullards and such. I got about $16 in change this week; who's in???


----------



## Marshall Mann

thrawn86 said:


> We need to pool our dough and buy an old factory, then reproduce authentic Mullards and such. I got about $16 in change this week; who's in???



Count me in! 

Like Marty, I can suck vacuum like crazy!


----------



## thrawn86

What do we realistically need to produce our own.............say, the MarshallForum 12ax7? Not a big run. Just enough for us? You guys apparently have the necessary skill to draw the vacuum.


----------



## Marshall Mann

thrawn86 said:


> What do we realistically need to produce our own.............say, the MarshallForum 12ax7? Not a big run. Just enough for us? You guys apparently have the necessary skill to draw the vacuum.



Oh, about a half a million in tooling equipment, some filament wire, glass tubing, 50,000 sq ft of space and someone who knows how to use and calibrate the machines among other things. 

But you could put me a and Marty on each end of the vacuum line to save some $ 

Seen this yet Thrawn???

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HveUY7eivfI]Mullard - Blackburn Vacuum Tubes Factory (Part 1) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Please don't call me a tech. I don't want to be damned to hell for my lack of knowledge by the Tech Police. They are always watching. My standard disclaimer: I am not a tech nor do I play one on the internet.
> 
> Are you unhappy with the sound of your amp? It probably came with some good tubes in it, being as how old it was. Can you give us a description of what's already in your preamp and power amp? They may still be fine if they don't have thousands of hours on them. I'd have someone test the tubes if you have access to someone with a good tube tester. The filter caps may need changing worse than the tubes.


Sorry dude...you do know much more about this than I could ever....and yep about the tech police...I tell a guy how to remove a chassis to take pictures so someone else can help him and some moron is accusing me of telling him how to work on his amp....but you are one of the guys I have learned alot about tubes and such....I will never call you a tech again....I just thought you guys might help enlighten the poster about some preamp tubes....


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Sorry dude...you do know much more about this than I could ever....and yep about the tech police...I tell a guy how to remove a chassis to take pictures so someone else can help him and some moron is accusing me of telling him how to work on his amp....but you are one of the guys I have learned alot about tubes and such....I will never call you a tech again....I just thought you guys might help enlighten the poster about some preamp tubes....



I was just messin' with you. I really don't want to be called a tech, but I've dabbled in electronics since we built that first electric motor with a battery and an insulated copper coil back in elementary school. I have very little formal training, mainly just watching and learning by doing. I can troubleshoot my amps, fix a clothes dryer, change plugs, coil wires, coil packs, etc. in my car, do household wiring, etc. but I have to get someone to bail me out sometimes, too. That's really important - knowing when you're in over your head. I absorb stuff like a sponge when it's hands-on, but when I have to learn something by going to class and reading in a book or listening to someone lecture, I fail and have to get a job. I'm just not wired to learn that way.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> How can I consider Chinese Ei as NOS?



I think what he was saying was that their is no new Ei tube, period. Something is happening, though. Those Ei Elites that are on eBay look nothing like the old Ei packaging, and the new packaging looks just like the website at eitubes.com. Something's up, but nobody's talking.


----------



## Sebat

I posted a reply last night, it had quotes and direct answers to questions, then I got a note about the post needed moderation... anyway, it seems that it is not here now..

I definately have the JCM 900 2500 SL/X 50 Watt head.

here is what my camera came up with, dont think they are going to be good enough.. ha ha...
my preamp
the left two




the right two




all four




my power tubes





What are Caps? Forgive me, I havent even ever opened up the back of my amp and looked at stuff before. I am scared I would be dumb enough to touch the wrong thing and end up dead.. ha ha.. that would be my luck...

anyway, I know there are some guys here in town where I live who are good at this stuff..

My thing is I do not wantto go get the same thing thats in there, I want to get abit more gain (if possible) with some more beef in my sound... right now its a bit thin IMO....

For a few years this amp got play for 20+ hours a week easily... As I was pretty solidly working on music during that time. I ended up bypassing the entire marshall pre amp for a season, and still when I do that I can get a thick and rich sound (depending on what I am doing I guess) but I honestly want to use a few pedals for effect but not as the primary source for my sound. I want this little thing to do that! Heck if I could, I would love to have nothing more than a Wah pedal and the amp and I would be happy. Use my guitar settings to adjust the gain level and such...

anyway, I am very appreciative for all the responses above. Thank you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Chinese Shuguang preamp tubes and Sovtek EL34G for power tubes. If you can swing it, a pair of RFT EL34's and any NOS preamp tubes would make a huge improvement in tone. The EL34G is considered Sovtek's worst EL34, and that's saying something.


----------



## RiverRatt

The filter caps we're talking about are tall cans mounted on top of the chassis same as the tubes. They could be silver, blue or black. When they get too old, they dry out, go boom, and take some other stuff out with them. If you notice your amp having a harsh, enharmonic distortion, buzzing or humming at any volume, or having a weak and very distorted tone, it's the filter caps.


----------



## Sebat

RiverRatt said:


> Chinese Shuguang preamp tubes and Sovtek EL34G for power tubes. If you can swing it, a pair of RFT EL34's and any NOS preamp tubes would make a huge improvement in tone. The EL34G is considered Sovtek's worst EL34, and that's saying something.


 
Ok, forgive the noob question... But after reading through a small portion of this thread (about 50 pages) I am completely confident that I would not know how to go about purchasing these unless I was to buy from a store that was legit. Meaning ebay is probably not going to happen for me, as I am sure someone would just lie about the product... ugh... 

so where should I go?

does someone here sell tubes?


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Chinese Shuguang preamp tubes and Sovtek EL34G for power tubes. If you can swing it, a pair of RFT EL34's and any NOS preamp tubes would make a huge improvement in tone. The EL34G is considered Sovtek's worst EL34, and that's saying something.


 +1 on the RFTs...I have a quad for my amp....they have a smooth breakup and I really like them....there are many listings on ebay right now.....look at your sellers feedback, and I like to see some type of guarantee....when you get new power tubes...have a certified tech check your bias...Preamp tubes...you saw what I like...we all have tubes that work for the sound we hear in our head.....BTW RFTs can be listed (or branded) as Siemans, Telefunkin....I've seen Realistic and National also, tho other tube companies made for them as well....RFTs have a dimple on top as a unique ID thing, and are slightly taller that Electro Harmonix or Sovteks....Welcome to the great tone search....


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> JJ 803S I've tried. Liked the tone but the tube lasted maybe an hour. Interesting they can't figure out when and where in Slovakia.




I was thinking about getting one sent along with my RFT EL84 order.
It seems it's nothing for anyone here to get excited or curious about, so maybe not worth getting one to check it out, huh guys?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If they were Telefunken 803's, I'd be pissing all over myself. 

And if you were buying them, we would all realize that today's economy was not affecting you.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Sebat said:


> I posted a reply last night, it had quotes and direct answers to questions, then I got a note about the post needed moderation... anyway, it seems that it is not here now..
> 
> I definately have the JCM 900 2500 SL/X 50 Watt head.
> 
> here is what my camera came up with, dont think they are going to be good enough.. ha ha...
> my preamp
> the left two
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the right two
> 
> 
> 
> 
> all four
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my power tubes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What are Caps? Forgive me, I havent even ever opened up the back of my amp and looked at stuff before. I am scared I would be dumb enough to touch the wrong thing and end up dead.. ha ha.. that would be my luck...
> 
> anyway, I know there are some guys here in town where I live who are good at this stuff..
> 
> My thing is I do not wantto go get the same thing thats in there, I want to get abit more gain (if possible) with some more beef in my sound... right now its a bit thin IMO....
> 
> For a few years this amp got play for 20+ hours a week easily... As I was pretty solidly working on music during that time. I ended up bypassing the entire marshall pre amp for a season, and still when I do that I can get a thick and rich sound (depending on what I am doing I guess) but I honestly want to use a few pedals for effect but not as the primary source for my sound. I want this little thing to do that! Heck if I could, I would love to have nothing more than a Wah pedal and the amp and I would be happy. Use my guitar settings to adjust the gain level and such...
> 
> anyway, I am very appreciative for all the responses above. Thank you.



PS - Sebat, to expound on RR's comment, "cap" or "caps" is an abbreviation of "capacitor" or an "electrolytic capacitor". If you are not comfortable digging around in the amp, take it to a tech. Caps are what all the "techs" will warn you about in regards to voltages stored in the amp. They can kill or severely hurt you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Chinese Shuguang preamp tubes and Sovtek EL34G for power tubes. The EL34G is considered Sovtek's worst EL34, and that's saying something.



There you go. The Shuguang's were easy enough to identify as well as the "SOVTEK" on the big bottles. The 34G is about the cheapest Russian power tube you can stick in an amp. The "G" has been replaced by the EL34WXT. The WXT is built a little better, but to me it is has a very harsh high end to it.

Some good tubes in your amp and it will sound a lot better. Of course, as a standard statement, any amp that is over 12 years old needs to have the electrolytic caps checked. I cringe when someone is using a 25 year old amp with the OE caps in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

About making our own brand of tubes? We couldn't afford the EPA licensing. All the good coatings that make NOS tubes special are not allowed in Northern America anymore. It's one of the reasons why it is so tough to get a CP tube to sound like a NOS tube.


----------



## 61rocker

Sebat....This looks kind of promising to try to sneak under the radar...if I had a 50 watt amp, I'd roll the dice on these.....They're not RFTs but I think Miniwatts are supposed to be excellent and these are claimed to be Mullards....





Enlarge

Pair PHILIPS MINIWATT EL34 6CA7 double D getter test ne... 



BidsPriceTime leftActions*Pair PHILIPS MINIWATT EL34 6CA7 double D getter test new Xf2 EL 34 MULLARD tubes*



Enlarge

Pair PHILIPS MINIWATT EL34 6CA7 double D getter test ne...

Pair PHILIPS MINIWATT EL34 6CA7 double D getter test ne...


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## brp

Wheat flour and wood fiber?


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> I've suggested before that we buy it as a forum and make our own tubes




We'd have to pay $1000 a year in forum dues.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Who wants to go with me to pick up these materials we need? I hope we can find them all at one place.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


>



No MSG? At least the food police won't be after us then.


----------



## sccloser

Roadtrip to Lowe's!


----------



## sccloser

If we are gonna need over $500,000.00 in start-up costs, it may be more cost effective to just take the $500k and buy up all the NOS tubes we can find.


----------



## 61rocker

Any MSG in that?....Dang, didn't see that in the other post....


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I was thinking about getting one sent along with my RFT EL84 order.
> It seems it's nothing for anyone here to get excited or curious about, so maybe not worth getting one to check it out, huh guys?



I put one in my NT and Monza and it didn't do much at all. Course I'm comparing Tubemonger 803's to the JJ 803S I had. Now I really liked it in V1 of my DSL50 but it only lasted about an hour of playing then took a shit with a resounding Hmmmmmmm!

The tone though was fat yet balanced with the top end present and not strident. The 803S is more balanced than the JJ ECC83S which is JJ's high gain offering. Apparently the 803S's don't do well in high gain preamps but like vintage preamps better. Mine didn't last in the DSL's tone slot or V1 very long so that seemed to be true in my experience.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Roadtrip to Lowe's!


 I can get us a 10% Discount......


----------



## Sebat

MartyStrat54 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."


 
I know I am new here, but I came here specifically to learn about tubes. It is the reason I did not just lurk this forum, and that is why I want to become a tube roller. I have a Marshall amp but my tone is lacking, dont believe me look at my previous post with pictures concerning my tubes. I need to put some good tubes in that thing, so it will sound great. 
I am sure that these would be some wonderful tubes and would make my amp sound amazing! In this economy, winning something like this could really make someones year, coming up with the means to purchase this many would take some serious time for me. The amp will be used both in public performances and for recording, and while I may never be famous, I will pursue my goal of making music I love with these, that is if I were to win! thanks for considering me!


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Who wants to go with me to pick up these materials we need? I hope we can find them all at one place.



I could probably get you most if not all of that with a little time and enough cash 

Quite an interesting list, that's for sure.


----------



## sccloser

Been tube shopping on ebay. Bid on a bunch of Amperex tubes. If I win them all I will be in deep doody...lot of cash. But I only hope to win a few...


----------



## RiverRatt

I recorded my Vintage Modern tonight with an Amperex in V1. There's a lot of delay on it, as you could guess. The rhythm part and the bass are dry except for the delay on the guitar. The lead is a Boss Mega-Distortion into the delay. Everything is in front of the amp. I wanted to record something with my Ibanez before I sell it tomorrow. This has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever come up with. Tell me what you think... shit or shinola? I know my lead playing sucks, and it's even worse when I try to record something. I didn't fall flat on my face too many times.

Delayed.mp3


----------



## thrawn86

Definitely Shinola.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I recorded my Vintage Modern tonight with an Amperex in V1. There's a lot of delay on it, as you could guess. The rhythm part and the bass are dry except for the delay on the guitar. The lead is a Boss Mega-Distortion into the delay. Everything is in front of the amp. I wanted to record something with my Ibanez before I sell it tomorrow. This has to be one of the weirdest things I've ever come up with. Tell me what you think... shit or shinola? I know my lead playing sucks, and it's even worse when I try to record something. I didn't fall flat on my face too many times.
> 
> Delayed.mp3




Reminds me of a Quinton Tarantino movie sound track like from Dusk to Dawn. Very cool Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks! I know it's crude. I just like recording stuff so that I'll remember it later. I can never seem to get anything right if I don't get it down somehow. I couldn't get that one worked out until my daughter told me what to do with the percussion.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks! I know it's crude. I just like recording stuff so that I'll remember it later. I can never seem to get anything right if I don't get it down somehow. I couldn't get that one worked out until my daughter told me what to do with the percussion.



Sounds cool Alan! Nice crunch man! That heavy delayed punch was gritty cool!


----------



## darkhorse

So many giving advice probably do not know an ECC83 is merely a British 12AX7.
So much bullshit about tubes. Very few makers these days and no matter what the tube you can get a crappy one even of the worshipped NOS old stock. 

Use what your amp is designed to use match the power tubes use new preamp tubes across the board and tweak the bias in. 

Lower gain preamp tubes have more effect on the voice and response of the amp than power tubes. I use both 5881s (6L6) and EL34s I love them both cannot say one is "better". Used a lot of Tung Sol high rated tubes, currently running new Mullard EL34s and lower gain JAN Phillips 5751s in my preamp stages. Thinking about trying 7025s in my preamp stages which are high quality 12AX7s.


----------



## thrawn86

Most of the guys posting here know the ECC83/12AX7 equivalency. We also know there are plenty of duds. We also understand the importance of properly biasing the power tubes.

We find the nuances of good NOS and reliable CP's to be great, even after we have achieved perfect bias. I for one, can tell you what a significant difference NOS did in my amp. My results may not be typical, but why do so many of us here hear the difference then? Are we 'full of it?'


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Me again folks, I plan to experiment with a 5751 & 7025 for V1 & V2 in my 900 SL-X.

For the 5751, there are 3 manufacturers easily available to me; RCA, GE & Phillips with the RCA being the most expensive. As I only plan on buying one, which should I choose ?

For a 7025 I'm having trouble finding many available in the UK, recommendations (and links if possible) very much appreciated. Again I'm only looking for a single tube, so I'd like to get the best value from that one bottle.


----------



## 61rocker

thrawn86 said:


> Most of the guys posting here know the ECC83/12AX7 equivalency. We also know there are plenty of duds. We also understand the importance of properly biasing the power tubes.
> 
> We find the nuances of good NOS and reliable CP's to be great, even after we have achieved perfect bias. I for one, can tell you what a significant difference NOS did in my amp. My results may not be typical, but why do so many of us here hear the difference then? Are we 'full of it?'


 
What he said....I think I know my varieties and differences....may not understand what it is technically that makes it work....I have a vintage RCA 7025 in my SuperLead......yep I know what it is and it's a low noise V1 staged tube....what we all may like for brands, current productions, and vintage/NOS is mostly based on what sounds good to us....not to mention dependability, or lack thereof, of a lot of CP tubes out there....just sayin'...I understand the importance of biasing, tho I have to get a tech to do it for me...Is your advice superior to mine??....


----------



## 61rocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Reminds me of a Quinton Tarantino movie sound track like from Dusk to Dawn. Very cool Alan!


 Definately.....I can see it....visual music.......I'm gonna plug in the RCA/Amx I got over the weekend tonite after work....


----------



## RiverRatt

darkhorse said:


> Lower gain preamp tubes have more effect on the voice and response of the amp than power tubes. I use both 5881s (6L6) and EL34s I love them both cannot say one is "better". Used a lot of Tung Sol high rated tubes, currently running new Mullard EL34s and lower gain JAN Phillips 5751s in my preamp stages. Thinking about trying 7025s in my preamp stages which are high quality 12AX7s.



Some people giving advice might not know that a 5881 is not a direct substitution for a 6L6. Some people who give advice might not know that a 6L6 was a metal tube and is a direct replacement for a glass bottle 6L6A. Some people giving advice may not know that none of these other members of the 6L6 family (and I left out several) will substitute for a 6L6GC. Lastly, some people who give advice about tubes might not know that a 7025 is a low noise 12AX7 and that its quality is no different from any other 12AX7 of the same make and model. 

You know, it pisses me off when someone comes in here and insults every member of the forum then proceeds to give their own opinion. I'm perfectly willing to listen to what you have to say, but do it in a non-confrontational way. Your statements were ambiguous and insulting. If English isn't your native language then I apologize. If it is, don't be a jerk with your first post in here.


----------



## solarburn

To DH trolling:

You mean an ECC83 is really a 12AX7? Wowser! Next you'll tell me there is no tone slot and V1 is the same as the PI so it won't matter what 12AX7 goes where cause its all the same. Then everyone's amp circuits the same cause they use the same tubes....you know...match!

I stink I got it now...

There are those amps that can run and even mix power tubes that only have to match octally or pin out. Pop in a Kt66 with an EL34...WTF! Say it ain't so!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Sounds cool Alan! Nice crunch man! That heavy delayed punch was gritty cool!





61rocker said:


> Definately.....I can see it....visual music.......I'm gonna plug in the RCA/Amx I got over the weekend tonite after work....



Thanks guys. It was just one take on the lead. It's hard for me not to make a few SNAFU's playing continuously for 4 minutes. It's definitely different for me. I have no idea where that opening delay bounce came from. I stole the bass line idea from Pink Floyd's One of These Days. I could have probably dicked around with it for awhile and cleaned up the rough spots. I may go back and do that later, but I'll never be able to get that exact tone and feel back unless the guy doesn't show up for the Ibanez today.

That delay is one of those cheap Garage Tone Axle Grease digital/analog delays. It doesn't have a super-long delay time but it's a good sounding pedal. The Boss Mega-Distortion is a monster.

The Amperex in the VM is a great V1 tube, too. It's different from my Mullard long plate. It's really hard to choose which I like better. The Amperex seems to have more aggressive upper mids while the Mullard is a nice thick, smooth tube with more lower mids.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Some people giving advice might not know that a 5881 is not a direct substitution for a 6L6. Some people who give advice might not know that a 6L6 was a metal tube and is a direct replacement for a glass bottle 6L6A. Some people giving advice may not know that none of these other members of the 6L6 family (and I left out several) will substitute for a 6L6GC. Lastly, some people who give advice about tubes might not know that a 7025 is a low noise 12AX7 and that its quality is no different from any other 12AX7 of the same make and model.
> 
> You know, it pisses me off when someone comes in here and insults every member of the forum then proceeds to give their own opinion. I'm perfectly willing to listen to what you have to say, but do it in a non-confrontational way. Your statements were ambiguous and insulting. If English isn't your native language then I apologize. If it is, don't be a jerk with your first post in here.



This.


----------



## sccloser

darkhorse said:


> So many giving advice probably do not know an ECC83 is merely a British 12AX7.
> So much bullshit about tubes. Very few makers these days and no matter what the tube you can get a crappy one even of the worshipped NOS old stock.
> 
> Use what your amp is designed to use match the power tubes use new preamp tubes across the board and tweak the bias in.
> 
> Lower gain preamp tubes have more effect on the voice and response of the amp than power tubes. I use both 5881s (6L6) and EL34s I love them both cannot say one is "better". Used a lot of Tung Sol high rated tubes, currently running new Mullard EL34s and lower gain JAN Phillips 5751s in my preamp stages. Thinking about trying 7025s in my preamp stages which are high quality 12AX7s.



ECC83 is a EUROPEAN designation for a 12ax7, not specifically (or merely as you put it) British. 

Since we're on the subject, do you know that you can substitute a 12AX7A for a 12AX7, but not the other way around? There is a difference in these tubes and they will not substitute in all applications.

And +1 on the 7025 being a "low noise" 12ax7 and not a higher quality tube.

Hang around awhile Darkhorse and absorb some info. There are very knowledgeable people in this thread that can give you good advice and help you. The sound and tone of tubes is highly subjective, but most agree that certain brands sound better, though there may be disagreement of which actually sounds best. But while you are searching for the tone or sound that you like best, you can get some good guidance from the guys around here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DARKHORSE-I read your other posts and I have to tell you that there are a lot of knowledgeable members here on this forum in regard to tubes. Several of your responses had errors in them that others will read. If you want to get off to a good start, you will need to ensure that you are posting valid information. Otherwise, you will be corrected. 

This thread has over 11,500 posts. Do you actually believe that no one here has ever discussed ECC83/12AX7 nomenclature before? My God, we all knew that years ago. You're going to have to do better than that to impress us. 

I would try a different attitude and you will go a lot further here on this thread.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey MM54.....that's one way to put it....lol.....I read what darkhorse's opinion on what he would use....I respect that.....but...like a couple of others said....come in with respect for us...even the newer ones....there are some vastly knowledgable people here....I learn more each day, tho my technical ablility is not good....my ear and knowledge of good equipment and great tone is.......and I am getting a feel for a working knowledge about what tubes sound good and dependable and what tubes don't....Thx Rawkers....


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that the key reason why we're still all here talking about this is that we all started experimenting at about the same time. I was convinced we were on the right track when everyone was giving the same description of the change in tone by using a particular brand. We traded tubes back and forth a few times and each player would hear the same tonal characteristics in their amps. 

Other than the more esoteric Brimars and Mazdas, I think you can generally break tubes down into five categories based on their similarity to other tubes:
1. Amperex 
2. Mullard
3. Telefunken
4. Raytheon
4. Other US Production

This is very general of course, but there are a lot of tubes out there that fit those stereotypes. The Canadian Electrohome tubes sound like an Amperex and don't cost a fortune. 

BEL and Matsushita have a strong Mullard tone, the older the better. Long plates really make these tubes. 

Ei tubes can sound like a more aggressive Telefunken, as do some of the Siemens und Halske tubes. RFT tubes IMO fall somewhere between a Telefunken and a Mullard. They have the pristine smooth highs like a Tele but the low mids sound darker like a Mullard. 

Raytheon is in a class of its own. I have run a Raytheon black plate in V1 and V2 on a DSL and the tone isn't bad, but it's a little too dark. A good Telefunken, Mullard or Amperex type really adds sparke when used in V1 in front of a Raytheon in V2. They are superb tubes in just about any audio circuit. They can be really high gain, too, especially the military JRP variation.

Other US tubes: I'd put GE at the top of this list as they are probably the most mid-heavy of this group. I've used old RCA's, Tung-Sols, and several others. Most are characterized by sweet highs, round lows and a scooped mid. Perfect for a Fender or similar amp, but they don't do much for me in a Marshall.

Anyway, that's just my thinking. There are still plenty of tubes out there I have yet to try. One of these days...


----------



## Sebat

what does it mean when you say it sounds "dark"?


----------



## RiverRatt

More emphasis on the bass and lower mids. The opposite of bright or treble. If your amp is too bright, sometimes using a tube with less treble and more bass will help smooth it out.


----------



## brp

thrawn86 said:


> Most of the guys posting here know the ECC83/12AX7 equivalency.





Geez, I admittedly know hardly anything about tubes and I know that.
Honestly, it's one of the first and only things I've learned.


----------



## RiverRatt

We've just got a troll on the loose. I think it's one of Blackie's other personalities.


----------



## Marshall Mann

darkhorse said:


> So many giving advice probably do not know an ECC83 is merely a British 12AX7.
> *So much bullshit about tubes*. Very few makers these days and no matter what the tube you can get a crappy one even of the worshipped NOS old stock.
> 
> Use what your amp is designed to use match the power tubes use new preamp tubes across the board and tweak the bias in.
> 
> Lower gain preamp tubes have more effect on the voice and response of the amp than power tubes. I use both 5881s (6L6) and EL34s I love them both cannot say one is "better". Used a lot of Tung Sol high rated tubes, currently running new Mullard EL34s and lower gain JAN Phillips 5751s in my preamp stages. Thinking about trying 7025s in my preamp stages which are high quality 12AX7s.




WOW!





No Shit?!!!


----------



## 61rocker

Wow.....



Genalex Genelex Glod Lion B759 ECC83 Ecc803s 12AX7 tube...


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> Wow.....
> 
> 
> 
> Genalex Genelex Glod Lion B759 ECC83 Ecc803s 12AX7 tube...



Ya know, you'd think for $1300 you would get clear pics on your post???


----------



## RiverRatt

If I ever spend $1,300 for a tube it better come packaged in a 1959SLP.


----------



## 61rocker

Marshall Mann said:


> Ya know, you'd think for $1300 you would get clear pics on your post???


 I gotta admit, the same thought went thru my head.....


----------



## 61rocker

Well, that Genalex sold for $1399.99.....I'll let you all know how it sounds....


----------



## Lowlife

There is no way those tubes can be worth that price...

Much of the tone is in the amp, and in the player as well, so unless they come with a beer brewing device and fix my errors before i play them, they are overpriced


----------



## Marshall Mann

61rocker said:


> Well, that Genalex sold for $1399.99.....I'll let you all know how it sounds....



Jez, I hope they threw in that 1959 SLP Alan was talking about!


----------



## Sebat

some rich person is going to be bragging about how his amp has the most expensive tubes in it that you can buy!


----------



## MM54

What do we know about Arcturus tubes? I've only ever seen one and never seem to hear much about them?


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> What do we know about Arcturus tubes? I've only ever seen one and never seem to hear much about them?



They were a player in the 1930s or so. They produced similar tubes to a #29, the old light-bulb looking tubes. Google Wunderlich tubes and you'll get a lot of Arcturus hits. I think by the time miniatures hit the scene, they were just a re-labeler, AFAIK. I'm not positive about this, but the Arcturus tubes I've personally come across were usually re-branded US tubes.

Here's a Raytheon 12AT7 masquerading as an Arcturus 12AZ7. It's a weak tube but I can't bring myself to throw it away. I like the logo.


----------



## MM54

Interesting

I have one of the 'lightbulb-looking' Arcturus tubes with an engraved base, it's neat and I like the name. I had never heard of them making any of the later tubes so I was just curious. Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

Take it with a grain of salt. They may have just not been distributed as freely around here. The factory was in New York or somewhere up east. I haven't seen much written about them. I have found several smaller tubes they relabeled, though. Their boxes kinda stand out and are easy to spot. There were several in that batch of TV tubes I bought. Some may be the old ones with the engraved base. I'll check 'em out when I get home.


----------



## RiverRatt

In the lightbulb tubes (I know there's a name for them - my mind can't find it), I have an RCA Radiotron UX-171-A, two Cunningham CX-326, and an RCA Radiotron UX-226.

I know I must have posted this before, but they are still cool.






One of the Cunningham tubes has a service sticker on it from 6/6/29.


----------



## MM54

Nice. Here's my 'Vintagey' tubes (large bulb with engraved bases). I've posted these before, but like you said, they're nice tubes 






And the Arcturus that inspired my question:


----------



## Marshall Mann

Pieces of art right there!


----------



## RiverRatt

I wonder what the thinking was behind the 2nd-generation tubes that everybody calls the "coke bottle" shape. Why start the tube narrow and then flare it out and taper to the base? I can understand going to straight-sided tubes from a cost and production standpoint, but what purpose did the shouldered-style serve? Did they think the cathode needed to be further away from the glass? Then why the narrow top? I've never been able to understand that shape.

Here's a couple of 6L6G's bracketing a more modern 6L6GC.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Pieces of art right there!



A year or two ago, my daughter had a class assignment to bring something old for a show-and-tell kinda thing. I sent her to school with a #83 Raytheon rectifier tube. I think it was one of the more popular items.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I wonder what the thinking was behind the 2nd-generation tubes that everybody calls the "coke bottle" shape. Why start the tube narrow and then flare it out and taper to the base? I can understand going to straight-sided tubes from a cost and production standpoint, but what purpose did the shouldered-style serve? Did they think the cathode needed to be further away from the glass? Then why the narrow top? I've never been able to understand that shape.
> 
> Here's a couple of 6L6G's bracketing a more modern 6L6GC.


 
Just wondering...if these tubes could physically fit in say a Fender Amp, would they work....and what kind of tone would you think they would have?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, they will fit. They are rated lower than a 5881 for plate voltage and dissipation, though. Not a good idea to put them in place of a 6L6GC. Matt used one in his CA10 and IIRC he thought it had a nice compression to it that the 6L6GC didn't.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I wonder what the thinking was behind the 2nd-generation tubes that everybody calls the "coke bottle" shape. Why start the tube narrow and then flare it out and taper to the base? I can understand going to straight-sided tubes from a cost and production standpoint, but what purpose did the shouldered-style serve? Did they think the cathode needed to be further away from the glass? Then why the narrow top? I've never been able to understand that shape.
> 
> Here's a couple of 6L6G's bracketing a more modern 6L6GC.



Very cool Alan!

But it kind of makes me feel old!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Very cool Alan!
> 
> But it kind of makes me feel old!



How so? All those tubes are older than me


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I wonder what the thinking was behind the 2nd-generation tubes that everybody calls the "coke bottle" shape. Why start the tube narrow and then flare it out and taper to the base? I can understand going to straight-sided tubes from a cost and production standpoint, but what purpose did the shouldered-style serve? Did they think the cathode needed to be further away from the glass? Then why the narrow top? I've never been able to understand that shape.
> 
> Here's a couple of 6L6G's bracketing a more modern 6L6GC.



That sylvania looks just the one I have... wait... 

I think the idea was somehow you could get better heat dissipation or something with the wider glass around the plates, then it got narrow again at the top so the mica didn't have to be huge.



RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, they will fit. They are rated lower than a 5881 for plate voltage and dissipation, though. Not a good idea to put them in place of a 6L6GC. Matt used one in his CA10 and IIRC he thought it had a nice compression to it that the 6L6GC didn't.



I wouldn't put a 6L6G in any random amp and expect it not to blow shit up. I knew it could handle the CA10 because I designed it from the ground up and know exactly what it pushes out of the poweramp. It runs the thing right at its limits, and you can tell by the heat. I haven't run it for long periods of time on the 6L6G, but I bet it eats them alive like AC30's eat EL84's.

Tonally it sounds a lot like the other NOS 6L6GC's I tried, but with a bit more breakup and compression, since it's being pushed so hard in that amp. Keep in mind that it's a NMV with an attenuator internally after the OT, so when the volume is maxed, the amp is dimed and the whole thing is pushing as hard as it can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well DARKHORSE wasn't around today. Yesterday, I went and looked at all of his posts. Three of them were almost identical to the one he posted on this thread. I mean the guy really thinks he knows his stuff. I called him out on one thread, but he never responded. Oh well, maybe tomorrow.

The guy is a stone duffus.


----------



## sccloser

I followed him around, too.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well DARKHORSE wasn't around today. Yesterday, I went and looked at all of his posts. Three of them were almost identical to the one he posted on this thread. I mean the guy really thinks he knows his stuff. I called him out on one thread, but he never responded. Oh well, maybe tomorrow.
> 
> The guy is a stone duffus.



Probably an alt or just a guy trying to raise some cackles...

TROLL


----------



## 61rocker

If anyone wants to give a listen, I posted an original on The Cellar.....I recorded a few years ago when I first got my Tascam DP-01....It's the "Moon and Star" thread...Thx...It's pretty raw....but I had a lot of fun putting it together....uhh...I really can't sing....


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well DARKHORSE wasn't around today. Yesterday, I went and looked at all of his posts. Three of them were almost identical to the one he posted on this thread. I mean the guy really thinks he knows his stuff. I called him out on one thread, but he never responded. Oh well, maybe tomorrow.
> 
> The guy is a stone duffus.



I noticed. I thought you did a good job of calling him out Marty. 

It's had to believe people sometimes. It's like he walked into the party all Rodney Dangerfield or something. "Tubes I tell ya, their overrated! NOS, POS it's all the same to me! A 12AX7? It's is a ECC83! No respect!"


----------



## sccloser

Rodney was funnier.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Rodney was funnier.



Very true Vic.

And would be a better addition to forum.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Anybody going after these?

Lafeyette 12AX7's? New to me? they look like Sylvanias.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well DARKHORSE wasn't around today. Yesterday, I went and looked at all of his posts. Three of them were almost identical to the one he posted on this thread. I mean the guy really thinks he knows his stuff. I called him out on one thread, but he never responded. Oh well, maybe tomorrow.
> 
> The guy is a stone duffus.



I wouldn't waste my time on him if I was you mate....he is clearly some annoyed jerk with too much time on his hands, once he finds out we wont take his flame-bait he will leave.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I guess this got missed during the recent beatings ?



Blacque Jacque said:


> Me again folks, I plan to experiment with a 5751 & 7025 for V1 & V2 in my 900 SL-X.
> 
> For the 5751, there are 3 manufacturers easily available to me; RCA, GE & Phillips with the RCA being the most expensive. As I only plan on buying one, which should I choose ?
> 
> For a 7025 I'm having trouble finding many available in the UK, recommendations (and links if possible) very much appreciated. Again I'm only looking for a single tube, so I'd like to get the best value from that one bottle.


----------



## thrawn86

They'll be back tomorrow to give you a hand......sorry you had to endure the dink proceedings.


----------



## johnfv

Blacque Jacque said:


> I guess this got missed...


Of the 5751 brands you mention I have only tried one, the Philips:
JAN-Philips 5751

As they mention on their review page, this one is not really lower gain, it seems like a really good 12AX7. Ranks up with some of the best sounding tubes I have ever heard though...


----------



## 61rocker

Blacque Jacque said:


> I guess this got missed during the recent beatings ?


 If you look on ebay, you can come up with some 7025s...I found some at a local guitar shop that were amp pulls, one is a 70s RCA, and the other is a '70 Magnavox branded Hitachi....but sound good and stong and brings out a nice tone from my Les Pauls.....I saw some 7025s on ebay last nite....and check with guitar shop that retubes amps....I have also found a vintage Mullard, an Amperex, GEs...all stronger than some CP tubes I've bought....


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> I guess this got missed during the recent beatings ?



Sorry, dude. I missed it, too. I've never seen an RCA 5751. If the GE has black plates and triple micas, that's the one I would go with. Is the Philips a Philips ECG? If so it's probably one of the later production and not nearly as musical as the old black plates. A Sylvania black plate triple mica is my hands-down favorite with the similar GE coming in second.

I will say this, and your opinion may vary: I've never liked a lower gain, more polite tube in V1 of a Marshall. It seems to take some quality away from the tone that I don't like. A 7025 can be high or low gain, it's just a tube that tested for low noise (or was just labeled 7025). A true 5751 is magic in V1 in a Fender-ish circuit, but I just don't like them in a Marshall. Tried them in my DSL before I sold it and my Vintage Modern and got about the same vibe in each amp. Popped one in V1 in my Ampeg and Fender and it was much better. Not jaw-dropping better, but better than any 12AX7 I've used in those amps.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Thanks guys, to answer the questions you've asked:

The Phillips are indeed listed as Phillips ECG.
The RCA is listed as 1970 production JAN RCA Black Anode & has red print.
The GE has dark grey plates & a double mica near the getter, green printing.

RiverRatt, the 5751 is intended for V2, not V1. On the SL-X I've found this is where most of the fizzy "distortion" type sound comes from, I end up running the Preamp on about 9-10, but the Sensitivity barely off the bottom stop & never higher than 1(11 as marked on the panel of course).

This means I'm getting sod all signal into the second stage & more noise than signal from that stage. By reducing the gain with a 5751 I hope to be able to open the Sensitivity wider & cut some of the hiss that comes from the second stage.

The idea with the 7025 is also geared toward noise reduction, less hiss from V1 should mean a quieter amp overall (from an unwanted noise perspective).

For reference I currently have an old Brimar in V1, it doesn't seems any noisier than any of the other bottles I've swapped in. The remaining valve lineup is as follows:

V2, V3, = GT12AX7
PI = Marshall branded ECC83, probably Chinese
OP = Sovtek 5881


----------



## 61rocker

Interesting.....I put a 7025 in my PI one time at the suggestion of a poster here...and I had some great tone going....I wonder what kind of 7025 I have...I thought I matched it up with one in some pics...Thought it was RCA..the mica are rounded on two "sides" and straight on the other two....it has the RCA kind of emblem like they put 12ax7 in and has made in USA on it....Marty left a great comment about 70s RCAs being from other countries...


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I guess any tube could be a fake.
The RCA is from Langrex, a long standing valve dealer here in the UK. It states in the ad "Made in USA"


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Thanks guys, to answer the questions you've asked:
> 
> The Phillips are indeed listed as Phillips ECG.
> The RCA is listed as 1970 production JAN RCA Black Anode & has red print.
> The GE has dark grey plates & a double mica near the getter, green printing.
> 
> RiverRatt, the 5751 is intended for V2, not V1. On the SL-X I've found this is where most of the fizzy "distortion" type sound comes from, I end up running the Preamp on about 9-10, but the Sensitivity barely off the bottom stop & never higher than 1(11 as marked on the panel of course).



Cool. Let us know how it works out. The GE you described sounds more like a 1960s Sylvania, but I'd have to see it to be sure. I would still pick it above the RCA and the Philips ECG. IDK if I ever tried one in V2.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Interesting.....I put a 7025 in my PI one time at the suggestion of a poster here...and I had some great tone going....I wonder what kind of 7025 I have...I thought I matched it up with one in some pics...Thought it was RCA..the mica are rounded on two "sides" and straight on the other two....it has the RCA kind of emblem like they put 12ax7 in and has made in USA on it....Marty left a great comment about 70s RCAs being from other countries...



Yeah, that sounds like an RCA, but I'll bet it's really a regular 12AX7. I wouldn't trust any tube that claims to be a 5751 that was made in the 1970's. They are so close sound-wise that you probably wouldn't know a difference in any audio circuit but a guitar amp. Well, the hi-fi crowd could probably tell, but they aren't going to be buying those tubes anyway.


----------



## GIBSON67

In my NMV Marshall, when I use a 5751 in either the V1 or the PI, it really fattens up the clean sounds. It's harder to overdrive but I mainly use a pedal anyway.

I scored a Sylvania with high gain, I can't wait to get it. Seller claimed gain of 106/110.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

For RiverRatt et al, the GE 5751:

And a link to the Ebay auction.


----------



## GIBSON67

Hmmm NOS good...those pins are sure shiney and new looking...


----------



## BDowell

darkhorse said:


> So many giving advice probably do not know an ECC83 is merely a British 12AX7.
> So much bullshit about tubes. Very few makers these days and no matter what the tube you can get a crappy one even of the worshipped NOS old stock.
> 
> Use what your amp is designed to use match the power tubes use new preamp tubes across the board and tweak the bias in.
> 
> Lower gain preamp tubes have more effect on the voice and response of the amp than power tubes. I use both 5881s (6L6) and EL34s I love them both cannot say one is "better". Used a lot of Tung Sol high rated tubes, currently running new Mullard EL34s and lower gain JAN Phillips 5751s in my preamp stages. Thinking about trying 7025s in my preamp stages which are high quality 12AX7s.



I get info here occasionally, but rarely post. I was going to sell my TSL until I tried a Telefunken and Brimar that was suggested here. Changed the amp dramatically. Marty and these guys know tubes. If you hang out here you'll quickly find out who has done their homework. Opinions on sound will always vary as the ear is the final judge..having said that you may want to re-think your post.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Blacque Jacque said:


> For RiverRatt et al, the GE 5751:
> 
> And a link to the Ebay auction.



I'm with Gibson here. Those pins look awful shiny for nos???


----------



## Marshall Mann

Marshall Mann said:


> Anybody going after these?
> 
> Lafeyette 12AX7's? New to me? they look like Sylvanias.



Bump. 

Ooops! Here's the link

eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices

Anyone hears of Lafeyette's? Japan maybe??


----------



## GIBSON67

Not me, they are pretty too. But they don't look like Black plates to me.


----------



## Lowlife

GIBSON67 said:


> Not me, they are pretty too. But they don't look like Black plates to me.



Agreed, lafayette sounds french though.


----------



## johnfv

Lafayette was an east coast (and mail order) electronics store not unlike say Radio Shack. I remember them from when I was a kid in the DC area.

Lafayette Radio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Marshall Mann

I dont think the French ever made vacuum tubes? 

Gray plates for sure. And they look like they have that extra bend in the plate like a Sylvainia.

I found another post for Lafeyettes where they refer to them as Japanese.


----------



## Marshall Mann

johnfv said:


> Lafayette was an east coast (and mail order) electronics store not unlike say Radio Shack. I remember them from when I was a kid in the DC area.
> 
> Lafayette Radio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Cool link John.

So I'm guessing these are re branded.

EDIT - Rebraned RCA gray plate 12AX7


----------



## johnfv

Marshall Mann said:


> Cool link John.
> 
> So I'm guessing these are re branded.



Right, they were just a retail store so I assume a re-label.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> For RiverRatt et al, the GE 5751:
> 
> And a link to the Ebay auction.



I still don't know. I've seen Sylvanias that weren't triple mica with green print. I don't remember a GE that looked like that, but I don't see a lot of 5751's. This is what mine looked like.


----------



## Marshall Mann

I've got a couple of these GE 5751's in the collection.






They look pretty similar.


----------



## Lowlife

Marshall Mann said:


> I dont think the French ever made vacuum tubes?
> 
> Gray plates for sure. And they look like they have that extra bend in the plate like a Sylvainia.
> 
> I found another post for Lafeyettes where they refer to them as Japanese.



You might be right, didnt think the Spanish did either, but i stubled across tubes named Marconi, supposedly made in Madrid...I'm bidding on one on ebay, hoping to get it cheap to try it out.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Lowlife said:


> You might be right, didnt think the Spanish did either, but i stubled across tubes named Marconi, supposedly made in Madrid...I'm bidding on one on ebay, hoping to get it cheap to try it out.



I knew about the Marconi's. They made some of the best 6L6's. 

Good luck LL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, the FRENCH did make tubes. MAZDA was French and so is the DARIO MiniWatt. I believe there were several smaller tube companies in France.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes, the FRENCH did make tubes. MAZDA was French and so is the DARIO MiniWatt. I believe there were several smaller tube companies in France.



Thanks Marty!


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Marshall Mann said:


> I've got a couple of these GE 5751's in the collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look pretty similar.



I agree, the green print could just be an age related thing, I don't think the Ebay ones are particularly vintage.

Thanks guys for the input, I appreciate it's difficult to make accurate judgements on the basis of a small photo.

Given they are the least expensive of the types I'm looking at, I think I'll chance one & see how it sounds. I know someone who will likely make use of it if I hate it.

I'll let you know the results, not sure quite how I can record them for you to listen yourselves, I'll have a think about that in the meantime.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you aren't happy with that tube in the gain stage, try it in the Phase Inverter.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

In the PI ? I've seen several recommendations for good strong, high gain bottles in there but never a 5751 ? I presume that would "clean up" the power stage a bit ? 

I'll certainly try it, it can't bust anything.


----------



## Sebat

Ok So I talked to the tech guy who works on my stuff and this is what he recommended for what I am wanting..


> a lot of people looking for higher gain tubes go for tung sol 12ax7 for V1(first preamp gain stages) and the rest can pretty much be any other brand. A few guys also recommend EHX EL34 and 12ax7. In the end it's your choice, but I think the tung sol 12ax7 in the first position is what could provide more change in gain.


 
whats your opinion here?


----------



## Neylus

Hey, please can I put different pre amp tubes in my amp? Like different brands in the same amp ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> In the PI ? I've seen several recommendations for good strong, high gain bottles in there but never a 5751 ? I presume that would "clean up" the power stage a bit ?
> 
> I'll certainly try it, it can't bust anything.



I'm sorry. I was thinking JAN 12AX7. Yeah, that 5751 might be a little weak in the PI.


----------



## johnfv

Neylus said:


> Hey, please can I put different pre amp tubes in my amp? Like different brands in the same amp ?


Absolutely! You think that 2203 sounds good now... wait till Marty sets you up!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sebat said:


> Ok So I talked to the tech guy who works on my stuff and this is what he recommended for what I am wanting..
> 
> whats your opinion here?



I have been recommending the Tung-Sol as the best value CP tube. Most of the big tube stores sell a select high gain/low noise tube and this makes a dandy V1 if you want to run CP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Neylus said:


> Hey, please can I put different pre amp tubes in my amp? Like different brands in the same amp ?



That is what we call tube rolling. Most Marshall amps use 12AX7's in all the preamp slots. You can swap these tubes around or try some extras that you may have to find the best tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> I've got a couple of these GE 5751's in the collection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They look pretty similar.



Now THAT is a GE 5751 with no ambiguity. A little newer than the black plates I posted. Most of mine are 1957-58. I was thinking of this tube when I saw the green print GE. This is 1980s production.


----------



## sccloser

Sebat said:


> Ok So I talked to the tech guy who works on my stuff and this is what he recommended for what I am wanting..
> 
> 
> whats your opinion here?



It is also my experience that the tung sol 12ax7 is one of the better sounding cp tubes for v1. JJ's are also ok in some amps, especially if your amp is a little bright sounding and you want to tone it down a bit. The Chinese Shuguangs also sound decent and are generally high gain. But Tung sol is the best cp to my ears for tone. For just a little more cash, you can get a nice NOS us made tube however, that will more than likely sound even better. I see good US GE tubes for $20 quite frequently, and I would think those would sound as good...what do you think, Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder how those Northern Electric's are selling at $58 a pop? You can get almost any kind of Philips tube for V1 at that price.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, that's what I mean, Marty. You guys really opened my eyes around here to that very issue...why pay $20 or more for a cp tube that cannot even compare to a NOS for the same price? I remember you saying that any good NOS US made tube is better than the best sounding cp available. I run across them for $10 or less a piece at times, and I know I can get GE's and Sylvanias for $20 a pop readily and easily. Once you try some vintage glass and hear the difference, not to mention how much longer they should last, it really makes no sense to buy new CP 12ax7's.


----------



## sccloser

And those used Telefunkens I got for less than $40 a piece (maybe less if I sell the preamp that they came in) would blow those $58 Northern electrics away I am sure. Even though they were used, they tested very strong and are very nice sounding tubes. Weren't teles designed to operate trouble free for 10,000 hours? I would venture to guess that would be 4 times the service life of an extremely well made and lucky cp Tung sol. One of my Tung Sols did not even make 30 hours, and it was $16.


----------



## RiverRatt

You can still run across Marshalls from the 1990's and find 3 or 4 Ei ECC83's still grinding it out in there. The Ei is a great tube in V1, but when you load the whole amp with them it can be a little bright. Anybody starting out with a modern Marshall with four preamp tubes should have a Raytheon black plate for V2 and a Sylvania or two to finish it out. *Anything* you put in V1 will sound better with that line-up, and it's not that expensive.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, that's one thing about Sylvania's. Most of them test at or better than new. Granted, most Sylvania's aren't very well balanced and therefore I love them in the PI slot, but the older Sylvania's 1954-60 were usually better balanced and high gain. 

The older GE's are nice, especially the 5 STAR tube. Most were 5751's, but they did make some 12AX7's. I've seen these go for as little a $12 each.

The Telefunken is indeed supposed to be a 10,000 hour tube. Talk about some killer coatings. This tube is very well built.

And as Joe and Alan have pointed out, the Slant D Getter Matshushita is a damn nice Japanese tube that you can pick up cheap. The Slant Halo Getter is not as good as the Slant D, but still better than a CP.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I just like long-plate tubes in V1. I hear a thickness to the tone that the smaller tubes just don't have. I've got a great long-plate Mullard, a couple of the Matsushita long plates (the ones with the D getter), an old Amperex and a couple of Telefunken smoothies. The one short-plate tube that I really like is the ribbed-plate Telefunkens.

If you want to have a stroke, check out the tubedepot.com page and look at the new arrivals. If I could sell tubes for that much money, I'd quit work and wait for the UPS man. Do they just go through and put SOLD on random tubes to make you think people are paying this much? Are people paying this much? That's a lot of groceries for some of these treasures. Somebody buy all my RCA black plate 6L6GC's for $199.99 each - I'll even give you a generous forum discount of 25% off the TubeDepot price.

New Arrivals


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I think I just like long-plate tubes in V1. I hear a thickness to the tone that the smaller tubes just don't have. I've got a great long-plate Mullard, a couple of the Matsushita long plates (the ones with the D getter), an old Amperex and a couple of Telefunken smoothies. The one short-plate tube that I really like is the ribbed-plate Telefunkens.
> 
> If you want to have a stroke, check out the tubedepot.com page and look at the new arrivals. If I could sell tubes for that much money, I'd quit work and wait for the UPS man. Do they just go through and put SOLD on random tubes to make you think people are paying this much? Are people paying this much? That's a lot of groceries for some of these treasures. Somebody buy all my RCA black plate 6L6GC's for $199.99 each - I'll even give you a generous forum discount of 25% off the TubeDepot price.
> 
> New Arrivals



It is called income redistribution through natural selection. The smarter, more ingenious types (bordering on criminal it would appear) are suckering the stupid but loaded with cash gullible types.


----------



## 61rocker

Some great posts tonite....I won a Siemans 12AX7 for under $10....it should test out at 80-85%...poster has a lot of feedback and all 100%....These are probably RFTs or later Teles??


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like how they have a review "for one" of the Raytheon JRC's. However, they are selling a short, gray plate, a long, gray plate and a black plate. They are trying to convince you that all three tubes sound the same. Ha-ha-ha!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got a link to the EBAY page for that tube? If it is a Siemen's, it could be a real one, or a relabeled one. It should have a Munich mark on it if it is a real Siemen's.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty!


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got a link to the EBAY page for that tube? If it is a Siemen's, it could be a real one, or a relabeled one. It should have a Munich mark on it if it is a real Siemen's.


 
Not too much for me to go on...maybe you can tell....I think I see a seam coming off the top.....I rolled the dice on it, but for >10$.....I expect on my tester it'll come in at about 80-82 realistically...................12AX7 Tube, Siemens


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty!



Hello fine sir. How's school going?


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hello fine sir. How's school going?



Going great so far.. Got a 3.68 GPA, and that is only cause one teacher gave a test and put stuff on it that wasnt covered in class or in the book and I bombed it bringing my grade to a C+.. But it is only midterm so I can bring it up for the semester..

Hows things with you?


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> Not too much for me to go on...maybe you can tell....I think I see a seam coming off the top.....I rolled the dice on it, but for >10$.....I expect on my tester it'll come in at about 80-82 realistically...................12AX7 Tube, Siemens



That looks like a real Siemen's tube. I'm not a 100 percent sure. When you get it, let me know if there are any other codes on it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If Siemen's, there should be a batch code, for example, AEBA. Munich production code: X+3 ±OC3, or something like that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

More ID on Siemen's. Can have an = sign with a / through it.

The later production Siemens tubes have the code on an internal tab and they don't sound nearly as good. (1968 and newer.)

Can also have a "VF1" code on the glass near the bottom of the side.


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> Not too much for me to go on...maybe you can tell....I think I see a seam coming off the top.....I rolled the dice on it, but for >10$.....I expect on my tester it'll come in at about 80-82 realistically...................12AX7 Tube, Siemens



I was watching that one but did not bid.


----------



## sccloser

Marty, Alan and anyone else with information...

Beep, beep ba-beep...calling all cars!

I have been seeing mucho GE 12ax7's for sale pretty cheap. Any knowledge on the better ones, tone wise, or are they all about the same? Anything to watch for? Are there any to stay away from?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Going great so far.. Got a 3.68 GPA, and that is only cause one teacher gave a test and put stuff on it that wasnt covered in class or in the book and I bombed it bringing my grade to a C+.. But it is only midterm so I can bring it up for the semester..
> 
> Hows things with you?



I hear ya. I had a couple of college teachers that did the same thing. In one class, we all bitched so much she took certain questions off of the test and regraded our papers. Personally, I would go to the Dean of Academics and bitch about this. After all, it is your grade at stake.

Well, the cold weather has hit and it got down to 30 degrees here today. I think it will warm up a little in the 70's for the end of the week. However, one thing is for sure. It ain't gonna get warmer, only colder. I shudder to think about late December. The house that I rent is old and doesn't have any insulation. My gas bills are $400 a month in Dec, Jan and Feb.

Plus, last year a squirrel got on top of my Toyota engine and chewed all the plug wires and vacuum lines. That cost me $387 to get repaired. Hopefully, that was a one time ordeal.

I'm going in for a VA disability exam tomorrow. It is for my multiple hernia surgeries. I'm hoping to get at least a 30 percent disability.

That's about it.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> If Siemen's, there should be a batch code, for example, AEBA. Munich production code: X+3 ±OC3, or something like that.


I'll let you know....it'll be a week or so....my stuff gets mailed to Little Rock...I hope there's enuff print left on it....lol...and Good Luck on your exams....


----------



## MartyStrat54

SC-I just posted earlier that the GE 5 STAR was a good one to get. GE's have an easy to read date code on the tube. Try getting 1966 or older. 1959 was a real sweet year for GE 12AX7's. I like the sound of the long, gray plate. To me it has fuller mids and crisp highs. The GE 7025 Black Plate is a real nice tube as well. These are pretty hard to find.


----------



## sccloser

10-4 Marty!


----------



## sccloser

BluesRocker said:


> Going great so far.. Got a 3.68 GPA, and that is only cause one teacher gave a test and put stuff on it that wasnt covered in class or in the book and I bombed it bringing my grade to a C+.. But it is only midterm so I can bring it up for the semester..
> 
> Hows things with you?



I had a Southern Politics Professor once who was our state's leader for the DNC. (Later worked in the Clinton Admin. Involved in National scandal. May be in jail now, but I digress.) 2 tests. First one was impossible and everyone failed. But, no worries. Just work for the SC Dem party for extra credit! He had me researching information for the DNC. I was doing demographics type research. Then we had to attend dem functions, etc. Of course, the final was a breeze and everyone made good grades. Sure, we were not forced to earn extra credit...we could have just all failed. 
Left a bad taste in my mouth for politics. I could tell you about some of the stuff I overheard being said by elected officials, but I am already on enough short lists as it is and may be monitored on the site...crap, is that another of those dang helicopters flying over my house?:eek2:

I gotta go!


----------



## Lowlife

sccloser said:


> I had a Southern Politics Professor once who was our state's leader for the DNC. (Later worked in the Clinton Admin. Involved in National scandal. May be in jail now, but I digress.) 2 tests. First one was impossible and everyone failed. But, no worries. Just work for the SC Dem party for extra credit! He had me researching information for the DNC. I was doing demographics type research. Then we had to attend dem functions, etc. Of course, the final was a breeze and everyone made good grades. Sure, we were not forced to earn extra credit...we could have just all failed.
> Left a bad taste in my mouth for politics. I could tell you about some of the stuff I overheard being said by elected officials, but I am already on enough short lists as it is and may be monitored on the site...crap, is that another of those dang helicopters flying over my house?:eek2:
> 
> I gotta go!



hehe, nice one...Echelon wants YOU(r personal information)


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Now THAT is a GE 5751 with no ambiguity. A little newer than the black plates I posted. Most of mine are 1957-58. I was thinking of this tube when I saw the green print GE. This is 1980s production.



Yep, that looks very much like the GE branded tube I've just ordered.


----------



## RiverRatt

Maybe it'll work out. At least it'll be something different. Do a tone report and some better pics when you get it if you can.


----------



## 61rocker

Anyone tell me about this one.....Mazda related maybe?? 

One CSF Tube 12AX 7 S, made in France


----------



## RiverRatt

The Philips code book gives F as the factory code for La Radiotechnique in Suresnes, France. That's probably what it is. It looks like a Philips tube.


----------



## BluesRocker

sccloser said:


> I had a Southern Politics Professor once who was our state's leader for the DNC. (Later worked in the Clinton Admin. Involved in National scandal. May be in jail now, but I digress.) 2 tests. First one was impossible and everyone failed. But, no worries. Just work for the SC Dem party for extra credit! He had me researching information for the DNC. I was doing demographics type research. Then we had to attend dem functions, etc. Of course, the final was a breeze and everyone made good grades. Sure, we were not forced to earn extra credit...we could have just all failed.
> Left a bad taste in my mouth for politics. I could tell you about some of the stuff I overheard being said by elected officials, but I am already on enough short lists as it is and may be monitored on the site...crap, is that another of those dang helicopters flying over my house?:eek2:
> 
> I gotta go!




Lol, yeah I think that everyone failed that test because he never gave home work until now. He is giving it out like candy so we can get points to boost our grades.. He is 24, younger than I am, and it is his first year teaching. So, I expected it to be either super easy, or super hard.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I hear ya. I had a couple of college teachers that did the same thing. In one class, we all bitched so much she took certain questions off of the test and regraded our papers. Personally, I would go to the Dean of Academics and bitch about this. After all, it is your grade at stake.
> 
> Well, the cold weather has hit and it got down to 30 degrees here today. I think it will warm up a little in the 70's for the end of the week. However, one thing is for sure. It ain't gonna get warmer, only colder. I shudder to think about late December. The house that I rent is old and doesn't have any insulation. My gas bills are $400 a month in Dec, Jan and Feb.
> 
> Plus, last year a squirrel got on top of my Toyota engine and chewed all the plug wires and vacuum lines. That cost me $387 to get repaired. Hopefully, that was a one time ordeal.
> 
> I'm going in for a VA disability exam tomorrow. It is for my multiple hernia surgeries. I'm hoping to get at least a 30 percent disability.
> 
> That's about it.




well I have talked with my adviser about it and she says that I should just wait it out. Because mostly all the students didnt do well from what I have heard. 

That sucks man, the last house I owned didnt have a newer HVAC unit and winters would cost me up to 300+ a month for electric heat. I spent around 2k to get a new one and that dropped my bills to about 100 a month during winter.

I hope that everything works out for ya with your exam, you can keep me posted.. I am usually always on here but just dont post a lot. Feel free to PM me anytime that you feel like it. I will have to call ya sometime and chat for hours like we usually do.


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> Anyone tell me about this one.....Mazda related maybe??
> 
> One CSF Tube 12AX 7 S, made in France



In v1, it will give every note you play an outrageous French Accent...


----------



## eljeffebrown

sccloser said:


> in v1, it will give every note you play an outrageous french accent...



wee we weee we wee!


----------



## BluesRocker

eljeffebrown said:


> wee we weee we wee!





[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8F_G2zp-opg&feature=related]Piggy - GEICO Commercial - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MM54

sccloser said:


> In v1, it will give every note you play an outrageous French Accent...



Buht waht eef we've alrrready got wahhn??


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Buht waht eef we've alrrready got wahhn??



Oh yesss, it'ss verey niceeh.

(I told him we've already got one)...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V7zbWNznbs]French Taunting - Monty Python and the Holy Grail - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MM54

Whew, I'm glad someone got that reference


----------



## MartyStrat54

61rocker said:


> Anyone tell me about this one.....Mazda related maybe??
> 
> One CSF Tube 12AX 7 S, made in France



As I stated earlier, Mazda and the DARIO were the two main French brands. I further stated that there was at least two smaller tube companies working out of France. I believe this is one of them. If it was a Mazda or a DARIO, the seller would emphasis this in an attempt to get more money. As it is, it's a $10 tube with $10 shipping from an unknown seller in Germany.


----------



## solarburn

The Dario Minni Watts are a great V1 tube. Glad I have one. Thanx Marty for mine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love them. Either French or Brazilian, they are one sexy MO FO.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Cody, what all have you still got for sale/trade?


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> Whew, I'm glad someone got that reference



My wife bought me that movie in the digitally enhanced, dvd boxed set for Christmas a few years ago. Much easier to catch all the little comments on it as the sound is so much better than on the original vhs. I've watched that movie so many times since the mid 80's! It is a classic!


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> As I stated earlier, Mazda and the DARIO were the two main French brands. I further stated that there was at least two smaller tube companies working out of France. I believe this is one of them. If it was a Mazda or a DARIO, the seller would emphasis this in an attempt to get more money. As it is, it's a $10 tube with $10 shipping from an unknown seller in Germany.



Well, no true German is going to put much value on something manufactured in France.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> My wife bought me that movie in the digitally enhanced, dvd boxed set for Christmas a few years ago. Much easier to catch all the little comments on it as the sound is so much better than on the original vhs. I've watched that movie so many times since the mid 80's! It is a classic!



My email notification sound since back in the 90s has been "Message for you, Sir" from when Launcelot and Concorde are headed to Swamp Castle. The first time my kids saw the movie, they freaked out.


----------



## sccloser

I knew this fellow I met in college. His name was Bernard. He was going to school here and staying with relatives in SC. He was from Germany. Anyway, we had some mutual friends and I hung around him some. I remember when he got a car, he bought this old beat up 1971 (71 to 73) Diesel Mercedes that looked like someone took a ball peen hammer to...I mean it had dings all over it. It must have been through 5 hellacious hailstorms...one from the north, one from the south, one from the west, one from the east and one that just came straight down on top of that poor car! Or maybe it was just in a tornado. I dunno. Anyway, he was adamant that that car with something like 300,000 miles on it was far superior to what we were driving because it was German. Of course, superior around here for us southern boys usually means fastest, but I got the general intent of his statement.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> My email notification sound since back in the 90s has been "Message for you, Sir" from when Launcelot and Concorde are headed to Swamp Castle. The first time my kids saw the movie, they freaked out.



What was so hilarious about that was the fact that Prince Herbert just scratched a little on a piece of paper, wrapped it on the arrow really quickly and when he shot it out the window, it just kinda arced out...boing.

Then in the next scene, it comes screeching through the air.....and mortally wounds (well, he feels alright actually) Lancelot's squire. Then when he reads the letter, it is this big long drawn out thing...the subtle humor in that show is marvelous!


----------



## RiverRatt

Wot, the curtains?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SwNXQMoNps]Message for you, Sir! - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## 61rocker

Love me some Monty Python...I was watching some of these clips Monday nite....and some of the Flying Circus....


----------



## thrawn86

Bring out your dead!

Brave Sir Robin ran away!
_NO!_
Bravely ran away, away!
_I didn't!!_
When danger reared its' ugly head, he bravely turned his tail instead


----------



## sccloser

Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses!

Soggy Tarts lying on their backs distributing swords in some farcical aquatic ceremony is no basis for a government! (something to that effect...)


----------



## sccloser

King, eh? Well I didn't vote for ya!


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses!
> 
> Soggy Tarts lying on their backs distributing swords in some farcical aquatic ceremony is no basis for a government! (something to that effect...)



I think it's "Strange women, lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony"


----------



## thrawn86

European or African?


----------



## thrawn86

She's rich, shes got huge.................................................tracts of land......


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, you might be closer. I have not watched it in about 3 years now. Need to watch it again.

One of my favorite parts is the killer rabbit!


----------



## sccloser

thrawn86 said:


> She's rich, shes got huge.................................................tracts of land......



But father, I don't want any of that...I just want to .......ssss....

NO NO, stop that, they'll be none of that while I'm here!


----------



## 61rocker

And now for something completely different......"How to play the flute...well, you blow in one end, and move your fingers up and down the other..."


----------



## sccloser

Jimmy had a talking flute.

You know, I remember thinking when I was a kid that that stupid flute sure got Jimmy and the gang into a whole heap of trouble...constantly! I think old Marty and Sid took a few trips to many...haha.


----------



## sccloser

I gotta get some sleep. I'm just getting too silly now. 

Nite!


----------



## sccloser

People on ludes should not drive...


----------



## MM54

When I get back from class today, I'll take a picture of my movie drawer  I think you guys will appreciate it


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Cody, what all have you still got for sale/trade?



I really dont know. LOL

What are you looking for?


----------



## 61rocker

This may be worth checking out...who was it looking for 5751s a few pages back? I have bought 2 items from this seller...mine have been very good...I just received an RCA 12ax7a from 1962 that tested at 86/85...for less than $10...

Pair Vintage GE 5751 5 Star Preamp Tubes Strong Clean 1...


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Not available to UK


----------



## MM54

MM54 said:


> When I get back from class today, I'll take a picture of my movie drawer  I think you guys will appreciate it


----------



## GIBSON67

Back in the 80's, those were my favorite late night shows MPFC, they came on right after Letterman which was really cool back then.


----------



## 61rocker

MM54 said:


>


 Where's the "gonna breakin yer place and take 'em" button....

A few skits I love: 
Arguement Clinic...."I'm sorry, this is abuse..."
How to Contradict People...."And when didn't you start contradicting people..."
Spanish Inquisition...."uhh..I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition...."
Cannabalism In The Royal Navy...."I'd rather eat Johnson sir...."


----------



## GIBSON67

Say no more!


----------



## solarburn

Anybody see this on Evilbay? US $1,444.00

Western Electric 300B matched Pair NOS from 1969 & 1971 | eBay


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> Where's the "gonna breakin yer place and take 'em" button....
> 
> A few skits I love:
> Arguement Clinic...."I'm sorry, this is abuse..."
> How to Contradict People...."And when didn't you start contradicting people..."
> Spanish Inquisition...."uhh..I didn't expect a sort of Spanish Inquisition...."
> Cannabalism In The Royal Navy...."I'd rather eat Johnson sir...."




Watched these with my family on TV as a kid. Years ago! Some fond memories and good laughs.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> I really dont know. LOL
> 
> What are you looking for?



Oh, nothing in particular (Egnater Tweaker). You seem to always have some nice gear. 

I'm going to try to get to Nashville in the next week or two and pick up a new Tweaker head. The used ones I've looked at will end up costing almost as much as I can buy the head new for.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Oh, nothing in particular (Egnater Tweaker). You seem to always have some nice gear.
> 
> I'm going to try to get to Nashville in the next week or two and pick up a new Tweaker head. The used ones I've looked at will end up costing almost as much as I can buy the head new for.


 
I don't know if they carry Egnaters, but I sure like the Sam Ash on Gallitan Rd, it's up before you get to Rivergate Mall on the right...(if your going north on Gallitan)...N'ville guitar center has a great vintage room....or at least the last time I was there


----------



## MartyStrat54

This guy posted an ad in the forum classifieds. Normally, I don't address them, but this time I had to. If any of you guys go there and read what he posted and what he claims these tubes are worth, I'm sure you will agree with my reply. Super Preamp Tubes.

http://www.marshallforum.com/member-classifieds/34215-super-preamp-tubes.html


----------



## sccloser

I noticed that last night as well.


----------



## 61rocker

Blacque Jacque said:


> Not available to UK


 
Maybe this one can work out...It's closer to home for you.....

5751 12AX7 GE NOS tube tested


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy posted an ad in the forum classifieds. Normally, I don't address them, but this time I had to. If any of you guys go there and read what he posted and what he claims these tubes are worth, I'm sure you will agree with my reply. Super Preamp Tubes.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/member-classifieds/34215-super-preamp-tubes.html


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> This guy posted an ad in the forum classifieds. Normally, I don't address them, but this time I had to. If any of you guys go there and read what he posted and what he claims these tubes are worth, I'm sure you will agree with my reply. Super Preamp Tubes.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/member-classifieds/34215-super-preamp-tubes.html



Yeah, I did read that. He's got about a $30-40 Mullard 12AX7 and garbage. I mean, the 12AT7 and 12AU7 might bring $10 each on eBay, but they aren't worth much. I sent Joe a couple of big-name 12AT7s awhile back because I know he likes them in the Monza and it's not worth the eBay hassle for $10. No guitar player is going to be interested in a 12AU7, I don't care who made it.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I don't know if they carry Egnaters, but I sure like the Sam Ash on Gallitan Rd, it's up before you get to Rivergate Mall on the right...(if your going north on Gallitan)...N'ville guitar center has a great vintage room....or at least the last time I was there



I don't usually go across the river. The only times I have was to meet Cody to swap money and gear. If we're up there and I have time, I'll stop by. I usually stop at Guitar Center because it's on our way into town. My wife likes the little antique shops out west on Charlotte Ave. and there are a couple of music stores and head shops in the Vanderbilt area that I like to hit. Of course, you have to go in the Great Escape. I've been doing that since around 1984.


----------



## brp

Well, I just finally got around to ordering my NOS RFT EL84's for the Night Train just a minute ago, from the Tubemonger link you posted, Joe. Thanks for the advice and opinions.

I plan to stagger my preamp tube purchase by at least a few days (so expect a PM Marty lol) so that I receive the EL84's first and can put them in and see what they do for the amp's tone without having the NOS pre's sitting there at the same time begging me to put them in too. A little planned self discipline for the academic value.

That way I'll get a good idea what the RFT EL84's have done to the amp.
Then I'll roll in the pre's.

My first foray into NOS tubes. I'm excited.


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats! I think you will probably find that the preamp lineup has a bigger effect on the tone. EL84/6BQ6/7189 all sound pretty close to the same IMO. I think you'd be better off concentrating on the strength of the tube and not so much the brand. I ran an Amperex in my Blackheart Little Giant and it really didn't sound that much better than the CP stuff. It they could make an EL84 with the creamy breakup of an EL34, I'd be all over them.


----------



## johnfv

I agree Alan, the EL84 tubes I have tried are surprisingly similar. Still there is nothing quite like the midrange bark of a cranked EL84. Even the Shuguangs sound pretty darn good...


----------



## sccloser

I got a NOS Mullard el 84 on the way for my Class 5. Cost me $20 shipped so I will let you know how it turns out.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Congrats! I think you will probably find that the preamp lineup has a bigger effect on the tone.



Ya, Joe has the same amp and said he'd normally agree with you but that with this particular amp, the first thing that should be done is replacing the power tubes in his experience and he rolled a bunch, said the RFT was his preference and fit what I described I was looking for tonewise.
I'm trusting his judgement since he's rolled a few tubes in there apparently.

They're Sovtek CP in there as stock so I'm sure he know of what he speaks.

I'm going to put an RFT 12AX7 in V1 and most likely an RCA in V2 (PI).
Should be quite a difference from the all Sovtek stock lineup.

Figured I might as well grab a couple NOS 12AX7 for My Blackheart Killer Ant while I'm at it too, while I can spare the cash. I'm sure they won't go to waste and they're never going to get any cheaper


----------



## johnfv

too late to crank the amps... guess I'll grab another beer. Anyone else restless tonight?

<crickets chirping>


----------



## thrawn86

Kinda. Just kickin it.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Ya, Joe has the same amp and said he'd normally agree with you but that with this particular amp, the first thing that should be done is replacing the power tubes in his experience and he rolled a bunch, said the RFT was his preference and fit what I described I was looking for tonewise.
> I'm trusting his judgement since he's rolled a few tubes in there apparently.
> 
> They're Sovtek CP in there as stock so I'm sure he know of what he speaks.
> 
> I'm going to put an RFT 12AX7 in V1 and most likely an RCA in V2 (PI).
> Should be quite a difference from the all Sovtek stock lineup.
> 
> Figured I might as well grab a couple NOS 12AX7 for My Blackheart Killer Ant while I'm at it too, while I can spare the cash. I'm sure they won't go to waste and they're never going to get any cheaper



When you get a moment check this page out. I've got comments over the whole page. It shows my progression in liking the RFT 84's in the NT. I mention the toppiness of the NT and how I am getting it to be less with an RFT 12AX7 as well. This is in 2009. The RFT's are still running great!

We had some good times back then!

Starts out with Marty quoting me...

Originally Posted by solarburnDSL50 
I got these for my Night Train:

Funkwerk RFT EL84 -1966-1970 M. Pairs MINT NOS NIB Welded Plate Tubes E. Germany.

I just put them in awhile ago. These are firecrackers with not much clean headroom at all hehe. Great overdrive and crunch though. Thick & syrupy. I'm going to have to try my strat with these and see how it sounds. Should be a good mix.

I still prefer the NOS Russian tubes Marty gave me cause they have lots of clean headroom and still a great overdrive. Not as gainy as the RFT but they sound good and make that nice clean to bite transition especially with guitar volume.

These RFT will be fun to mess with for edgier, aggressive tones. I got a wild hair and thought I'd try them out. 

At the end...


The NT is pretty cool. Its my first EL84 amp. The volume is still a bit under whelming but miced this thing would be fine at any blues jam. Its fairly loud but after cranking the Marshall you really see that it ain't. 

I had to tame its toppiness a little and it really has some great blues to rock tones. Those RFT EL84's I just got for it are frigg'n incredible. I just got done crank'n it plugged into my 412 cab of Greenbacks and it was smok'n. I've never heard it sound that naughty.

With the Strat there was plenty of clean headroom. On the edge break up tones are very sweet because it is a warm, round crunchy break up. After getting a chance to give it the proper volume I give these power tubes even more of a nod. Only downside is they are pricey.


----------



## solarburn

Put your entries in for Marty's Tube Contest!

Well I've got my Vintage Preamp tube all ready to send to a winner in Marty's contest. I bought it mint NOS NIB and it has less than 30 minutes of play on it. So technically its considered ANOS but really guys...less than 30 minutes of play? Sheesh!

Just need an addy of the winner to ship it to...

I tell ya what. Here's a side prize. If the winner guesses what "decade" my mystery tube is from I'll throw in a "bonus" tube of my choice. It will be ANOS. All my ANOS are very fresh and the tube I have in mind is desirable. You get it right and the winner gets 2 killer vintage 12AX7's. I gave a hint on this thread a few days ago and I think everyone missed it. Too bad so sad...or is it? The only requirement is nobody posts an answer until the winner is picked. Then the winner can guess the answer here on this thread for the bonus tube.

Decade:
A. 50's
B. 60's
C. 70's
D. 80's


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Ya, Joe has the same amp and said he'd normally agree with you but that with this particular amp, the first thing that should be done is replacing the power tubes in his experience and he rolled a bunch, said the RFT was his preference and fit what I described I was looking for tonewise.
> I'm trusting his judgement since he's rolled a few tubes in there apparently.



Yeah, Joe knows Night Train. If he says that's the way to do it, then that's the way to do it. 

I need more Gatorade. I just got up. Gatorade is like an antidote for whatever I did last night. Works better than coffee for me.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, Joe knows Night Train. If he says that's the way to do it, then that's the way to do it.
> 
> I need more Gatorade. I just got up. Gatorade is like an antidote for whatever I did last night. Works better than coffee for me.



Hahahaha! Oh was I laughing too loud! Sorry...


----------



## RiverRatt

Not a hangover. My mouth is dry and my brain is a little fuzzy. I'm struggling with whether to watch a football game or cartoons.


----------



## 61rocker

Wazzup folks.....looking at the EL84 thing....I would roll tubes more in my Class 5, but I have one of the early ones...and it's a bonafide B***ch to get to them....you have to be a contortionist with three arms to get the chassis out, but even harder to put it back in...I was really surpised with the design....I am thinking about selling it and getting a C5 head....mine has Marshall labeled JJs....I think the preamp are JJs too, they maybe Shuguangs....the V1 and V2 are different plates.....sitting here watching the Hogs play Ole' Miss....


----------



## RiverRatt

The JJ EL84 is about the only tube of theirs I really like. I've had them in a couple of amps and they aren't bad. I still use NOS because I trust them a lot more than the JJ tubes. What channel is Ole Miss/Arkansas on?


----------



## 61rocker

It's on ABC here, you may not be getting in Jackson area...Ole Miss is shutting us down right now.....halftime
The tone on my Class 5 could be better...It sounds good if I preamp it or drive it with my Guv'nor 2....but it drives on it's own nice when cranked but the tone is not where I want it...it'll rattle a bit when the bass is too high (early C5), and it can sound boomy or bassy....I recorded an original with it and it sounds great...I preamped it with an old Digitech RP12 on "Half stack" preset with some delay and on leads hit the Guv'nor....sounds Big....I may post that song.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

*JOE and ALAN-I sent you a PM. Let me know your thoughts.*


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I don't usually go across the river. The only times I have was to meet Cody to swap money and gear. If we're up there and I have time, I'll stop by. I usually stop at Guitar Center because it's on our way into town. My wife likes the little antique shops out west on Charlotte Ave. and there are a couple of music stores and head shops in the Vanderbilt area that I like to hit. Of course, you have to go in the Great Escape. I've been doing that since around 1984.


Yeah, Great Escape rules...used to have a great record collection going, and I found a lot of great 1st editions there in mint shape....I used to live about three miles from Sam Ash in Old Hickory Village last year, I have seen some great used gear go in and out there....That's where I got my Les Paul Std. DC...and they gave me a great trade in for it....The N'ville Guitar Center is probably the best one I've been in....others are really lacking in customer service and knowledge, but that one is run pretty well....There is a great guitar shop in Elliston Square (I may be repeating myself), they usually have a lot of boutique amps in there....I'll keep my Marshall, but when I tried out my Les Paul, I played thru a Bad Cat.....great amp...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that guy selling the 12AT7, 12AU7 and 12AX7, claims he sold them. He doesn't say whether he got the $175. If someone paid that much, wow...send them my way. I have some 12AU7's that I can let go off.


----------



## thrawn86

I can see how he says that he likes to 'kill' his gain with those tubes, but it's a pain unless it's being used in a studio, where you can roll them to record what you want. Unless you play full time Jazz, I see it as being useless. It would make a Marshall very one-dimensional, as you pointed out, in a gig scenario.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Yeah, Great Escape rules...used to have a great record collection going, and I found a lot of great 1st editions there in mint shape....I used to live about three miles from Sam Ash in Old Hickory Village last year, I have seen some great used gear go in and out there....That's where I got my Les Paul Std. DC...and they gave me a great trade in for it....The N'ville Guitar Center is probably the best one I've been in....others are really lacking in customer service and knowledge, but that one is run pretty well....There is a great guitar shop in Elliston Square (I may be repeating myself), they usually have a lot of boutique amps in there....I'll keep my Marshall, but when I tried out my Les Paul, I played thru a Bad Cat.....great amp...



Have you been to the new Great Escape? It's in the shopping center where the Goodwill store is on Charlotte. There's a half-assed music store across the street from that. I think they sell more water pipes than guitars. McKay's is out that way, too. It's like the Great Escape on steroids. Books, DVDs, games, phones, iPods... we always spend too much money in there. I think I'm coming up in a week or two to trade amps. I'll try to check out the Sam Ash shop.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I can still smell your cooking. Hmmm!!!


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Have you been to the new Great Escape? It's in the shopping center where the Goodwill store is on Charlotte. There's a half-assed music store across the street from that. I think they sell more water pipes than guitars. McKay's is out that way, too. It's like the Great Escape on steroids. Books, DVDs, games, phones, iPods... we always spend too much money in there. I think I'm coming up in a week or two to trade amps. I'll try to check out the Sam Ash shop.


 
In the 80s, the one we would go to was down by Vandy, I think....last year the one I would go to was at Old Hickory and Gallatin Rd....they had some great comic books in there....I was looking at prices of vintage ones that I knew my brother had in his collection...Didn't know about McKay's or I would have checked it out...EZ way to Sam Ash....go up 65North to Old Hickory Blvd....go right...take a left at Gallitan Rd...go Past the Lowes and it's about another 1/2 mile or so on the right...can't miss the sign above the entrance...it's in a kind of big shopping center with a JoAnn's and a couple of Chain Restaurants.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that guy Jazzercaster got mad at me. Called me a private eye. He-he. I told him if he posted something like he did again, I would comment on it. I told him I didn't want forum members getting raked on used tubes.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> I can see how he says that he likes to 'kill' his gain with those tubes, but it's a pain unless it's being used in a studio, where you can roll them to record what you want. Unless you play full time Jazz, I see it as being useless. It would make a Marshall very one-dimensional, as you pointed out, in a gig scenario.



Also he's hitting the front of the amp with a boost while using these. So its not like he is really using those tubes alone. It would really neuter it at volume especially with the 12AU7. In essence he's colored and changed the texture of his preamp saturation hitting the power section. With these tubes and a variable boost you can have more control over how much hits the power section as well as have a bit more punch at lower saturation levels. Plus have a good clean with guitar volume roll off. I do it with the Monza sometimes. Its a non master valve amp and works well like this. Not my main tone or feel though. Just an alternative. Never used a 12AU7.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that guy Jazzercaster got mad at me. Called me a private eye. He-he. I told him if he posted something like he did again, I would comment on it. I told him I didn't want forum members getting raked on used tubes.



I just saw that. Marty the private eye.

Amen to not getting ripped the F' off!


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> In the 80s, the one we would go to was down by Vandy, I think....last year the one I would go to was at Old Hickory and Gallatin Rd....they had some great comic books in there....I was looking at prices of vintage ones that I knew my brother had in his collection...Didn't know about McKay's or I would have checked it out...EZ way to Sam Ash....go up 65North to Old Hickory Blvd....go right...take a left at Gallitan Rd...go Past the Lowes and it's about another 1/2 mile or so on the right...can't miss the sign above the entrance...it's in a kind of big shopping center with a JoAnn's and a couple of Chain Restaurants.....



The Great Escape on Broadway in the Vanderbilt area closed this year. They moved to that store I was talking about on Charlotte. All the same stuff, just a bigger store. I bought an old guitar magazine that featured Ace Frehley for like $2. I can't remember which mag.

Definitely check out McKay's. They have good stuff. They pay well for used books, old iPods, etc. too. They have a pretty good selection of vinyl and they are very reasonable. It's at Charlotte and White Bridge Pike. Make sure you check out the music section in the used books. I've found some really cool guitar books there.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-I can still smell your cooking. Hmmm!!!



You can't smell it or you would be here  

Spaghetti and meatballs with a good Cabernet Sauvignon for everybody else. Good stuff. I'm overloaded, the wine is gone, and I should probably go to bed, but I got started watching the world series. Tennessee is doing about what I expected against Alabama. Good first half.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-The thing is about Jazzmasterson, is in his original post. He makes a "covered" comment about the various gain differences without stating what those differences were. Instead, he provides a variety of links. If you were a novice, the links wouldn't make any sense anyways. I thought that was pretty sneaky. If I was selling a 12AU7 to someone, I wouldn't make statements that would make it seem like the 12AU7 was a V1 tube. His "covered" statement was these tubes were very special and he was giving someone a big break selling them for $175. Imagine for a moment if someone actually thought those three tubes were worth $500? Jazzmasterson makes that statement, doesn't he?

I did a little "private eye" work and on one of his posts, he claims 42 years experience with tube amps. So I'm thinking he is a few years older than me. I don't think I would have gotten very far around here using his "selling tactics."


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp-Are you finally getting your tubes figured out? In your last post at the top of this page it appears so. Glad to hear it. It can be touch and go, but I think Joe has the most experience on what you are looking for. He's an experienced roller. He knows all about tonz.

I'm looking forward to hearing your take on the new tubes.


----------



## 61rocker

I'm due for a trip to Nashville....It may be a while tho...I still have some vacation time left. Marty....I can hear the "Get Smart" theme song playing.....lol


----------



## MartyStrat54

Barbara Feldon, Agent 99, was a hottie.


----------



## 61rocker

.......And Loving it Chief....


----------



## eljeffebrown

RiverRatt said:


> The JJ EL84 is about the only tube of theirs I really like. I've had them in a couple of amps and they aren't bad. I still use NOS because I trust them a lot more than the JJ tubes. What channel is Ole Miss/Arkansas on?



I know this ISN'T the power tube thread but I just put JJ 6CA7's in my head and the are AWESOME, I won't go back to EL34's


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> brp-Are you finally getting your tubes figured out? In your last post at the top of this page it appears so. Glad to hear it. It can be touch and go, but I think Joe has the most experience on what you are looking for. He's an experienced roller. He knows all about tonz.
> 
> I'm looking forward to hearing your take on the new tubes.



Thanks man. Yes, I know I've been going about it at a snail's pace but only due to lack of knowledge and I'm not one to jump into things like this without much info. I've been taking it slow, listening and learning. I'm up for spending a couple hundred or so on the investment in tone but not up for completely wasting it.



I want to hit you up for about 4 tubes real soon most likely. I want to check out the power tubes for a few days (at least) first.

Thanks for all the help from you guys, it's been great!
My tubes shipped today. I'll post when I've gotten them in and have given them a go.

It says on the tubemonger site that the RFT are prone to cracking if mishandled during installation. 
Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.
I didn't see warnings like that one their other tube's pages. Is this a big problem with the RFT, they're especially delicate?

Any tips for a noob tube installer in this regard and just in general?


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thanks man. Yes, I know I've been going about it at a snail's pace but only due to lack of knowledge and I'm not one to jump into things like this without much info. I've been taking it slow, listening and learning. I'm up for spending a couple hundred or so on the investment in tone but not up for completely wasting it.
> 
> 
> 
> I want to hit you up for about 4 tubes real soon most likely. I want to check out the power tubes for a few days (at least) first.
> 
> Thanks for all the help from you guys, it's been great!
> My tubes shipped today. I'll post when I've gotten them in and have given them a go.
> 
> It says on the tubemonger site that the RFT are prone to cracking if mishandled during installation.
> Matched Pairs, Brand New, MINT NOS Late 1960s Funkwerk RFT EL84 Tubes with Alpha 6BQ5 Label. East German Production. These welded plate tubes are more desirable than the later stapled plate RFT's.
> I didn't see warnings like that one their other tube's pages. Is this a big problem with the RFT, they're especially delicate?
> 
> Any tips for a noob tube installer in this regard and just in general?



Hahaha! I got worried over that warning too. I have popped in RFT 12AX7's I don't know how many times not to mention the times I moved those 84's from my Monza, NT and then in and out comparing to others. I haven't once cracked one. 

Just coax it in there without being hamfisted. I'm careful but I can pop em' in readily. My Monza was a tight fit at first when I was rolling in it. I took it slow until I got the touch down with it plus it loosened up a tad. Its all in the touch. Go slow and glide it in there without breaking it off. Sound familiar...


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> I know this ISN'T the power tube thread but I just put JJ 6CA7's in my head and the are AWESOME, I won't go back to EL34's



El Jeffe struck gold!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is Joe's clue for winning an extra tube.



solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well then...I've got my tube ready to go for the weiner...I mean winner of Marty's contest. You know...the "I stuff my tubes into whatever slots I want contest! Right? Man Marty's a pervert!
> 
> There's been a few admissions so far but I have to say someone is going to get some choice 12AX7/ECC83's hehe.
> 
> I want to keep mine a surprise but I also want to put some hints out to what it is...sooooo
> 
> I'll say its from a decade that a popular TV series is named after...?


----------



## thrawn86

Ohhhhhhh! I know it I know it!!!! It's for 1950............as in Hawaii *5-0*!!!!! 

NAILED IT!


----------



## MartyStrat54

eljeffebrown said:


> I know this ISN'T the power tube thread but I just put JJ 6CA7's in my head and the are AWESOME, I won't go back to EL34's



When you've played them for a while, could you post a review over on the Power Tube thread? I've had several guys ask me about those JJ's. 

If I had the money, I would like to do a A/B test of the EH's and the JJ's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Maybe DAN at the Tube Store would give me free set.


----------



## mickeydg5

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 



I am your main man if you're looking for a roller
I'll take no lip 'cause no ones tubier than me
If I kicked your delay you'd soon be hearing double
Hey little girl, keep your hands off me 'cause I want to be a roller

I love to rock and roll
I get my tubes from the Martimus stall
Sweet rock and roll
Marty boy, he's got them all

Down at the juke joint me and the boys were stompin'
Bippin' an a boppin', playing a dirty solo or two
In walked this chick and I knew she was up to something
I turned to her right there and asked if she had any tubes

I said "Hey baby, meet me I'm a tough guy"
Got my amp outside, you wanna try?
She just looked at me and rolled them big eyes
And said "Ooh I'd do anything for you 'cause you're going to be a roller"

That's right I want to be a roller

I love to rock and roll
I get my tubes from the Martimus stall
Sweet rock and roll
Marty boy, he's got them all

Tuuubes are GGREAAT!!! He's a roller, your a roller, I'd like to be a roller too.


----------



## brp

"Why I want to become a tube roller."

First, a little background to give context to my situation and desire to become a tube roller:

I've never installed a tube in my life.
Up until about a year ago, I'd never owned a tube amp in the 25 years I've played guitar. I'd always had solid state for a few reasons but mostly due to my perception of the cost of tube amps and lack of knowledge abut them. The cost of tube amps always seemed out of reach to me but also I had concerns about the reliability and maintainence of them.

I lost some interest in playing guitar for a few years as I started a family. Then, a couple of years ago I kinda fell back in love with it and started playing alot more just for the enjoyment.

Then about a year ago, the second of 2 solid state amps I had bought in the past 5 years died on me. One of them just stopped working and the other started experiencing intermittent droputs (loss of volume). I'm pretty handy with taking things apart and troubleshooting, soldering bad connections etc. so I opened it up. I researched a bit on any known issues with this amp and found out that the problem was fairly common; bad solder joints. I looked around carefully and tested continuity of circuits but could not find the problem.
As this process became more tedious and annoying, I suddenly started asking myself questions like: "do I really even enjoy this amp or do I use it because it's all that I have?" "Would I choose this amp today if I could choose any amp? Would it even be in the top 10 choices?" The answers were all "no."
I had gotten to a point in my life where I could afford a better amp, yet had went cheap on amp purchases because I have a family and tried to be prudent and responsible, deciding "this will be good enough and won't cost that much." But it wasn't "good enough". I realized that I'd never been happy with my tone even though I had experimented alot with eq and effects.
It also wasn't very prudent, as I had bought 2 amps in 5 years yet I had no working amp to play through.

So I decided to spend some time thinking about what kind of tone I was seeking. I listened to recordings of artists whose tone I admired and realized that if theirs were the tones I wanted mine to be similar to, I'd need to have some similar gear. Of course, I realized I wouldn't need carbon copies of their rigs but appreciated that I wouldn't be able to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, so to speak.
I then decided that I would need to re-open my mind to tube amps.
I don't gig anymore or have a need for 50 or 100 watt amps and I don't see that reality changing soon. I wondered if there could be a low wattage tube amp to fit the needs of someone like me who doesn't need alot of power but really wants quality valve tone for personal recording projects and playing alone. 
I discovered that such amps do exist and that in fact these days there are many such options. I also came to learn that the price of these amps were not out of reach to me in the present as I had once concluded them to be for me.

I researched what was available in my area because with my apprehension and ignorance on the subject, I wanted to be able to buy from a local shop with a warranty and the option to return an amp and try something else.
I concluded the Vox Night Train was the best fit for my needs that was locally available, so I bought one.
In short, I loved it! The tones I had never personally been able to achieve were immediately coming from this amp. That "valve tone". Of course I had known this tone existed but had previously thought I'd need to spend much more money than this to have access to it. I was wrong and ignorant. 

My playing interests had also changed over the years, formerly more a metal player, over time I became more interested in a wider scope of tones and not just hi gain distortion. This amp gave me many tones in the range of what I was interested in, including a decent amount of gain.

It was a whole new world. However, I soon realized that I was rarely going to be able to really use this amp's full potential, as even in 7.5 watt mode, it's too loud to get any power tube saturation where I live, which is the only place available for me to use this amp.

So, being very curious what I might be missing in this regard, I put out a little more towards my tube amp exploration and bought the lowest watt valve amp I could find. It wasn't in my area but being confided by the Vox, I ordered a Blackheart 1/4 watt BH1H from a reputable dealer I've done business with before online.

Now, having a couple of lower wattage tube amps for recording, I want to make the most of them. I'm interested in recording a variety of guitar styles and tones but I can't buy a different amp specifically suited to each style. I just can't justify that, given the expenses of modern life with a family's future to be responsible for.

This is where my interest in rolling tubes comes in.
I've learned from the guys here at MF that different tubes can have a significant affect on an same amp's tone. This seems like a dream scenario to me, using the same amp with different preamp tubes to achieve subtly or sometimes even dramatically different tones. This is right up my alley!

Playing music and recording my own projects is pretty much my only hobby and passion these days and that will not change anytime soon. Rolling tubes is an interesting and exciting element to this that I've never explored. I'd love to get into trying different tubes with the amps I have and see what bases I can cover with just these 2 amps and a variety of preamp tubes.
It sounds like a very fun and potentially satisfying aspect of playing, recording and experimenting with tone and electric guitar music's nuances.

This is why I want to be a "tube roller".

This contest gives me a huge opportunity to get into rolling tubes in a way I may never be able to match on my own and I'm very grateful for that chance.
Thank you for it!
I've been reading all of the Entries as they've came in and there's some really great ones so far in my opinion.
Best of luck to all of the participants and again a BIG thank you to Marty and the others who donated tubes to this GREAT contest's prize!

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say many thanks to the Marshall Forum and it's members for helping me with my tube amp purchase choices (both of which were highly influenced by advice and opinions I solicited here), tube buying advice and for helping to convert me to a tube amp believer for life!


----------



## eljeffebrown

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well then...I've got my tube ready to go for the weiner...I mean winner of Marty's contest. You know...the "I stuff my tubes into whatever slots I want contest! Right? Man Marty's a pervert!
> 
> There's been a few admissions so far but I have to say someone is going to get some choice 12AX7/ECC83's hehe.
> 
> I want to keep mine a surprise but I also want to put some hints out to what it is...sooooo
> 
> I'll say its from a decade that a popular TV series is named after...?



Dude that's so easy, come on!


----------



## eljeffebrown

MartyStrat54 said:


> When you've played them for a while, could you post a review over on the Power Tube thread? I've had several guys ask me about those JJ's.
> 
> If I had the money, I would like to do a A/B test of the EH's and the JJ's.



I will. we have some time now so i'll be able to get some good clips.


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> Dude that's so easy, come on!



Hehe. Marty made it easier by going back & getting it for these guys. I wanted them to have to go hunt it down since they missed it the first time. You know work for it a bit. Marty put it on a silver platter so to speak.LOL

All I know is somebody's going to get some nice damn tubes!

Oh...and you're one of these guys! Damn! You officially have a gag order on!LOL


----------



## solarburn

eljeffebrown said:


> I will. we have some time now so i'll be able to get some good clips.



Clips is awesome.!


----------



## Sebat

So after reading a ton, looking at my finances and such (got 2 young kids and the Holidays are coming up) I have decided to replace the tubes in stages. I will do the power tubes first, probably just drop in some JJ's as I have had a multitude of folk recommend them to me for the style I like/play. Then I will go with what my tech advised for the pre amp tubes (may do this at the same time if i can get a good week of overtime at work) Then I will save my pennies and purchase some good pre amp tubes from Marty, I have talked with him and he has given me some info and a quote.

So I am excited about this... Now if i won the contest, that would allieviate much of my headaches... ha ha.. of course this is real life, and I NEED new tubes.. so I think that puts me in the place of needing them too bad to actually win. hA HA.

anyway, I will try to stick around and spend time, but since I am such a newbie, and I know so little, I feel a bit... overwhelmed...


----------



## RiverRatt

We've still got 8 days. Some of you guys who are on other forums need to round up your tube hounds and get 'em on here. That's the whole idea - get more people in here rolling tubes and discovering that yes, there really is a big difference between NOS and current production.


----------



## solarburn

Off to work now guys. I'll catch up tomorrow!


----------



## Sebat

i do plan on getting some tubes and "rolling" with them as I get them! I will experiment and get a great tone!


----------



## MartyStrat54

C Ya Joe-Take care.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> We've still got 8 days. Some of you guys who are on other forums need to round up your tube hounds and get 'em on here. That's the whole idea - get more people in here rolling tubes and discovering that yes, there really is a big difference between NOS and current production.



Give 'em hell, RATT!!!


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahaha! I got worried over that warning too. I have popped in RFT 12AX7's I don't know how many times not to mention the times I moved those 84's from my Monza, NT and then in and out comparing to others. I haven't once cracked one.
> 
> Just coax it in there without being hamfisted. I'm careful but I can pop em' in readily. My Monza was a tight fit at first when I was rolling in it. I took it slow until I got the touch down with it plus it loosened up a tad. Its all in the touch. Go slow and glide it in there without breaking it off. Sound familiar...




Thanks for the input.
Ya I feel you and thought that might be the case. I was just concerned by both the EL84 AND 12AX7 RFT being the only tubes on their site that seem to have that warning.

I know what you mean though, you gotta feel it and finesse it, not force it.
Thanks again.


----------



## Jesstaa

Is it just me or have NOS tubes gone right up in price? 
Sounds like just my luck, as soon as I get an amp which NOS tubes will really make a difference to I can't afford 'em.


So NOS or not, any suggestions for an '83 2203 with EL34s, I'm looking for something with a tight crunchy midrange, which my guitar already does pretty well. 
Probably wont have any money for them for a while though..


----------



## brp

So suddenly today, a guy near my area lists 3 (so far) NOS 12AX7 on CL.

I'd like to see what you guys think of what he has and the asking prices.

60s Telefunken 12AX7 made in Wst Germany
Long 17mm grey ribbed plates, good logo with diamond on the bottom
Tests really strong on my Mercury 204 tester (like NOS)
The ultimate in clean preamp tubes
$45
Telefunken 12AX7

60s Amperex Bugle boy 12AX7 Preamp tube
Tests excellent
Labelled for Rogers but clearly has the Philips Heerlan factory codes as seen in the photo
Also the other Amperex bugle construction hallmark, seamed glass top and halfmoon plate cutaways
Get an amazing quality tube at a fraction of the crazy ebay prices
$35
Amperex Bugleboy 12AX7 Preamp Tube

Nice vintage Brimar BVA 12AX7 preamp tube made in England
This is the older winged box plate version with the small logo
Though used it tests like NOS
$35 
Brimar BVA 12AX7 made in England

I was going to email him and see what else he has.
I have no way to test these though.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think the prices are too bad, provided they test as good as the seller says. I wouldn't mind picking up that Brimar just to have one in my collection.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, those prices are in line I think. $35 for the Amperex is good to me cisnce I like those..


----------



## Alt Freak

MartyStrat54 said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."


Why I want to become a tube roller!
I'm just a kid, and very recently I have started to educate myself on amps and tubes. I have pretty much exhausted Google looking and finding answers on tone, amps, and so on. I got my first guitar about five or so years ago, and my first amp was a 15w solid state vox valvetronix or however you spell it. I didn't even know what tube vs solid state was, or that it mattered. I was just confused on why some amps were $500, and others were $1,500! After awhile of playing that little amp, I got really tired of my tone, and was looking at other amps and what would give me a better sound. Well I finally looked into what tube amps were, and that they were obviously the type of amplifier that would give me a much better tone. Just from those little glass vacuum tubes! I bought my first tube amp, my Marshall JCM 800 a little while ago, and have been obsessed with tubes ever since. Always looking at options, and rolling tubes in my Marshall! I quickly have learned that my amp was made for NOS tubes, but i just don't have the money to spend. I have to use all my money to help with my band. Now that I'm into tubes, a lot of my friends are like I used to be and just don't understand having a tube amp over a SS, and don't get the point of spending money on NOS glass. I love to educate myself and am always looking at old Mullards and Bugle Boy Amperex's, etc. It's my dream to become a tube roller , and hope to be as knowledgeable on them as you guys are some day!


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Calling all you eagle eyed tube spotters !!
here's a few detail pics of the "NOS GE 5751" I purchased recently, comments & observations please:

I haven't had chance to pop it in the SL-X yet so I don't know how it sounds.

As new condition box:








Nice clear printing, marked (and etched) Made In USA, double mica's top & bottom clearly visible:





Date code indicates 1987 production:








2 parallel lines in the glass on the bottom, || ??


----------



## MM54

Inside looks like Sylvania (as does the ink color) but it has the etching of a GE. Not 100% sure on this one, I'll let the more experienced guys take a look.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's GE production. Here's a pic of some other GE-labeled 5751. I don't remember anyone using those half-moon plates other than GE.


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

Do you think they were manufactured in 6/87 or just accepted in 6/87?


----------



## sccloser

Whew!

Just was over reading Jon Wilder's farewell...sounds like a backstage fight going on over there...


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know. There are a couple of things wrong with it. Any tube made that late should have come from the Owensboro plant. Every GE that came out of Owensboro had a very simple code, the 3-digit EIA code (188) for GE and it's followed by a dash and a single-digit number. That number will be the factory code, which was "5" for Owensboro. I can't find anything that looks like an EIA number on that tube. I thought it was required by the union to list the correct EIA code on a tube no matter what the label says.

On the other hand, the date format is correct. It should read YY-WW. Looks like yours has two date codes, but they are the right format. So somewhere on this tube, you should see the code "188-5". None of the other numbers match anyone else's EIA number or coding scheme.

I'd say the codes are correct. I don't see anything about it that's not GE other than the missing EIA number.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Whew!
> 
> Just was over reading Jon Wilder's farewell...sounds like a backstage fight going on over there...



What's with all the melodrama? If someone is going to leave, then leave. We'll figure it out sooner or later. This is just BS.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, did a little more digging and it appears that "33173" is some sort of GE code as well. I've found it on tubes from the 1970s to 1980s. I don't know what it means, but it appears to be exclusive to GE.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Definitely no xxx-y format code anywhere on the bottle or the packaging, but it does look pretty much identical to RiverRatt's photo. The 87-26 ties up with the date code on the box 06/87, perhaps the 87-48 is the acceptance date sscloser mentioned ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Read this. 188 on the tube does not guarantee its a GE.

TubeSound » Blog Archive » Identifying GE (KEN-RAD) manufactured tubes


----------



## mickeydg5

I was going to ask if the 188 code was there as well. The JAN green print has the right font style. I also notice that GE miniatures tend to have a distorted opaque ring at the base moreso than others.

Not all GE 5751 have the half moon. Some things I notice about the plates, the GE box is a little wider and has one center tab at top and bottom. The Sylvania box has three tabs top and bottom with a double crimp to one side. Correct me if I am wrong.


----------



## hbach

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 
Here's my top ten:
1) I'm a boy so I like toys.
2) I'm an engineer so "well" is never good enough.
3) Something that runs on high voltage, is "empty" and "makes music" must be mysterious and needs to be explored.
4) There has to be a tube roller in Ecuador. At least one in every country!
5) I don't smoke so I need some other vice to make up for it.
6) My main amp is self built so it's my "baby" and deserves to sound the best.
7) I have two other guitarists that ask me for advise sometimes so I need to lead them on the right path.
8) If I win I could start right away, with a baby on the way I might have to wait otherwise.
9) Happiness might just be an 12AX7 away.
10) If I win I'll send Marty a bottle of Ecuadorian booze (Bribing "the Authorities" is the way we roll down here )


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Do the two parallel lines in the glass tell us anything ?


A sort of || mark ?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Googling FSCM 33173, I found a French discussion implying that GE subcontracted elsewhere in the US & Owenboro was "abandoned" as they put it, in 1987:

>>>> LINK:


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Do the two parallel lines in the glass tell us anything ?
> 
> 
> A sort of || mark ?



Not that I've ever found a pattern in. I've seen some inked-on numbers on the bottom of Philips tubes but the only thing I look for molded into the base is a diamond


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I was going to ask if the 188 code was there as well. The JAN green print has the right font style. I also notice that GE miniatures tend to have a distorted opaque ring at the base moreso than others.
> 
> Not all GE 5751 have the half moon. Some things I notice about the plates, the GE box is a little wider and has one center tab at top and bottom. The Sylvania box has three tabs top and bottom with a double crimp to one side. Correct me if I am wrong.



Right, GE had plates both with and without the half-moon cutout and I don't think there was anything special about them. You find them all mixed in together even in the same tube. But when you do see it, you know you're looking at a GE.

I don't know about the Sylvania. I'll take your word for it. I have at least four Sylvania 12AX7/5751 tubes with different construction. I like the green print ones from the 1960's - they are great, dependable tubes. I have a Fender HRDV with three different types of Sylvanias in the preamp. Black plate 5751 in V1, long black plate 12AX7 in V2 and the green print one in V3. It's a sweet sounding amp. I topped it off with a pair of NOS Sylvania 6L6GC's just to keep it all in the family.


----------



## mickeydg5

Would that be a royal flush in the hrdv?

The 5751 plates mentioned before were gray plate. GE and Sylvania black plates look fairly identical. I think GE micas have more prongs generally.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Would that be a royal flush in the hrdv?
> 
> The 5751 plates mentioned before were gray plate. GE and Sylvania black plates look fairly identical. I think GE micas have more prongs generally.



Yeah, it's hard to tell the difference in the two if the label is gone. 

Sorry, I keep posting this picture, but it fits too well with what we are talking about. For anyone else who's interested, an old GE and Sylvania black plate 5751 look almost identical. The Sylvanias are the ones with the very light printing on the tube. The print on the GE's is a lot better. The Sylvanias are the three in the lower right. You're right - the micas on the GE tubes have twice as many tabs as the Sylvanias, always. Sometimes it's the only way to be sure.


----------



## sccloser

My Mullard el84 came today. It tested good and strong. I will have to wait a few days to try it out...the class 5 is the our rehearsal warehouse.

Also got a Mullard 12ax7 (I was told it was a long plate, but I think it is medium,,,not short, but I do not think it is long), a Raytheon gray plate and a matsushita today. The Mullard tested very strong, 103/94 on my Eico 667 and it sounds FANTASTIC in the DSL 401 in v1. All other tubes in the 401 are JJ's and that Mullard made a HUGE difference in v1! It actually made that amp sound good. Sounded even better than the Amperex I have been running in it lately. 

The Raytheon gray plate is a pretty good sounding tube in v1 as well. It tested 92/95 and had some edge to it. The frequency response on it was a bit narrower than the mullard. I think the mullard had more lows and a little more highs, but the Ray had a bit better crunch.

The matsushita tested very weak. 56/60 on the Eico and in the ? range on my Accurate 157 as well. I tried it out anyway. Surprisingly it did not sound bad. Had a smooth overdrive, sounded pretty full, but lacked sparkle and sounded a little dull. Probably would have sounded better if it were not worn out.

I'll try that Mullard out in the mkiii later. Running an Amperex in it's v1 right now. But I will say one thing...I need some more Mullards that sound like that one!


----------



## sccloser

Hey guys, if on an emissions tester we stipulate that 100 is strong and mostly like will sound good, what would be the lowest that you would suspect that a Mullard 12ax7 could test and still have a good chance of sounding good and lasting for a little while at least?

I see a good many testing in the 80 range that seem to bring less $$ than those near 100 or more.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm gonna send Joe a couple of those Sittard, Holland EL84's. I would say I'd offer them to someone else who wanted to give them a try, but I have a feeling that when they get to Washington state, they won't be leaving. 

That one I tried smoothed the hell out of my Vox AC4TV. One of these days I will own a Marshall 18w clone. I need a good EL84 amp. Maybe a Ceriatone with the PPIMV mod installed.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Hey guys, if on an emissions tester we stipulate that 100 is strong and mostly like will sound good, what would be the lowest that you would suspect that a Mullard 12ax7 could test and still have a good chance of sounding good and lasting for a little while at least?
> 
> I see a good many testing in the 80 range that seem to bring less $$ than those near 100 or more.



There's too many variables there to give one solid answer. Some people think a well-worn tube sounds better. I don't think so, except maybe with power tubes. I like preamp tubes to be pretty strong.

Emissions testers didn't have a standard to adhere to, so what tests as 100% on one tester could test 60% on another tester. As a general rule, anything that tests below 60 on a good quality tester is junk. I like the "LIFE" test on the B&K testers. It loads the tube, and if the needle doesn't go down, you have a strong tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> Googling FSCM 33173, I found a French discussion implying that GE subcontracted elsewhere in the US & Owenboro was "abandoned" as they put it, in 1987:
> 
> >>>> LINK:



Did I read that right? A select group of employees made GE 6550A's until 1992? Holy shit.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm gonna send Joe a couple of those Sittard, Holland EL84's. I would say I'd offer them to someone else who wanted to give them a try, but I have a feeling that when they get to Washington state, they won't be leaving.
> 
> That one I tried smoothed the hell out of my Vox AC4TV. One of these days I will own a Marshall 18w clone. I need a good EL84 amp. Maybe a Ceriatone with the PPIMV mod installed.



Hahahaha! You know me too well.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Maybe a Ceriatone with the PPIMV mod installed.


I have a Ceriatone TMB18 and that sucker is LOUD! Great amp but I gotta tell you I can actually get better low volume tone out of the 2204...


----------



## solarburn

That 2204 of yours sounds awesome.


----------



## johnfv

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That 2204 of yours sounds awesome.


Thanks Joe! With a Mullard and Black Plate from Marty in V1 and V2, what's not to love???


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I have a Ceriatone TMB18 and that sucker is LOUD! Great amp but I gotta tell you I can actually get better low volume tone out of the 2204...



That's not what I was expecting at all. I have friend who has a Ceriatone 1987 with the PPIMV mod and it sounds really nice at lower volumes. Thanks for the heads-up!


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> That's not what I was expecting at all. I have friend who has a Ceriatone 1987 with the PPIMV mod and it sounds really nice at lower volumes. Thanks for the heads-up!


The TMB is unique: the "vintage" channel has no master so must be cranked like any NMV. The TMB channel does have a master but still needs to be cranked to get good crunch. Don't get me wrong, it is a wonderful amp but do not think for a second it is a "bedroom" amp.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> There's too many variables there to give one solid answer. Some people think a well-worn tube sounds better. I don't think so, except maybe with power tubes. I like preamp tubes to be pretty strong.
> 
> Emissions testers didn't have a standard to adhere to, so what tests as 100% on one tester could test 60% on another tester. As a general rule, anything that tests below 60 on a good quality tester is junk. I like the "LIFE" test on the B&K testers. It loads the tube, and if the needle doesn't go down, you have a strong tube.



Yeah, I tend to think that power tubes sound a little better (smoother at least) after they kind of wear or break in a bit. Not so sure about 12ax7's. I remember Marty always saying to put a strong tube in v1 because that it the first gain stage in most Marshalls. I guess I am just curious at what point a 12ax7 goes from strong to weak.


----------



## RiverRatt

About the weakest 12AX7 I would want to use would be at least 80% of new. Much past that and the gain and tone seem to depart.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> About the weakest 12AX7 I would want to use would be at least 80% of new. Much past that and the gain and tone seem to depart.



OK...that's what I was asking for...kind of a benchmark to go by, though I do understand this is not a hard-fast rule. Thanks!


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

I was told you once posted a clip of your tweaker that sounded pretty marshall-esque. I could not find it with a search. Could you re-post it and if you remember, could you tell us what tubes you were running?


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

I see where you re-posted the clips in the power tube thread...thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> About the weakest 12AX7 I would want to use would be at least 80% of new. Much past that and the gain and tone seem to depart.



This is accurate for high gain amps like most Marshalls. However, weaker tubes can be used longer in say a Fender design preamp. I stated several times that I have put weak tubes in V1 of a Fender and the owner liked the smooth tone.

Don't you just hate throwing a tube away? A guy shipped me 20 RAY BP's and one tested dead and a few days later it turned white. I gave it a good look and it was cracked. It sat there for a month on my tester. I finally threw it away today.

I was cleaning up my shipping area and five, wrapped tubes fell out of a box. WTF? It was some RAY BP's that I had forgot to unwrap and test. Yeah, I go through a lot of BP's. I'm glad I found these. I'm getting low and my supplier doesn't have any high gain one's to sell at the moment.


----------



## eljeffebrown

Hey Marty, I have a special treat for your contest, it's an entry. I know I already entered but everyone can judge this new entry of mine coming in the next few days whether or not to allow it, if not it'll be all in fun cause it was fun making it. I can't wait to post it.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is accurate for high gain amps like most Marshalls. However, weaker tubes can be used longer in say a Fender design preamp. I stated several times that I have put weak tubes in V1 of a Fender and the owner liked the smooth tone.



When a tube is going "weak" like that, what is the life expectancy after that point? Is it a matter of time or is it rather a matter of operating hours? And what approx. timeframe or in-use hours would that be, generally speaking? Or is it too varied to simplify that much?


----------



## AxlOz

So I'm now using a JCM800 Superbass MkII 100w head as my main guitar head. I just love the tone of the EL34 poweramp in the 800's, even when not cranked. And the EQ controls are amazing! Being a bass amp its really very clean and 'polite', which is great for some songs we play, and not common on Marshall's, so a nice addition to the tone arsenal.

Currently it has 3 Edicron 12AX7's that seem very smooth and clean, but seem a little too warm and dark. They dont look like NOS tubes, they have 'Edicron 12AX7 F9JF9' printed on them in white. Long grey plates.

The power tubes are russian Sovtek EL34G's.

My question here is can someone recommend some preamp tubes that will give it some edge and a little brightness?


----------



## AxlOz

Just pulled the Edicrons out to inspect. The metal 'legs' (not sure of the correct term) that go into the socket look pretty old, so maybe these are older tubes.. I also noticed they have some smaller grey/yellow coloured text at the bottom, it reads:
2A1
R9E

and

2A1
R8J

The R looks a little weird..


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Ok, so let me see if I got this right ?

My bottle has the half moons cut out of the plates and a large number of tabs on the mica spacers, therefore it is true GE, correct ?

With any luck I'll get chance to try it in V2 of my SL-X tonight, I'll probably drop it in V1 as well, just to see what happens.


----------



## RiverRatt

Everything about it says it's a GE.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Cool. Other than for the sake of knowledge, I guess it really doesn't matter what brand it is, just how it sounds. A couple more hours & I'm outta here & on my way home to find out .


----------



## RiverRatt

AxlOz said:


> Just pulled the Edicrons out to inspect. The metal 'legs' (not sure of the correct term) that go into the socket look pretty old, so maybe these are older tubes. I also noticed they have some smaller grey/yellow coloured text at the bottom, it reads:
> 2A1
> R9E
> 
> and
> 
> 2A1
> R8J
> 
> The R looks a little weird..



You sure that R isn't a B? It would make more sense that way. R is the Philips code for the Mullard Mitcham factory in Surrey. Most often, that first digit is a B, which is the code for the Mullard Blackburn plant. 2A1 is probably an older type code. The bottom digits are FACTORY/YEAR/MONTH, so you would have a Mitcham tube made in May of 1959 and the other was made in October 1958. I've never seen a tube from the Mitcham factory. Can you post some photos?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'd like to see some pictures. Edicron was a major relabeler over in England.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I have found some cheap NOS 12BZ7's. (tung sol, GE, RCA or Sylvania) I'd like to try one in my 1987x. 
Wich one of the brands mentioned above would you recommend for this tube and how would it sound in V3 ? (that's where I'd like to try it if I don't like it in V1)

Also, how are RSD 12AX7's?


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> When a tube is going "weak" like that, what is the life expectancy after that point? Is it a matter of time or is it rather a matter of operating hours? And what approx. timeframe or in-use hours would that be, generally speaking? Or is it too varied to simplify that much?



It really depends on the tube and why it's getting weak. If it's getting weak due to a leak and loss of vacuum, it's a time bomb. If it is weak because the cathode coating has been boiled away, it can still last for years. I've got many old 6L6GC's that have years of use on them and they still test at 85% or so.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Over a year ago. we experimented with 12BZ7's in DSL/TSL amps. The reviews were mixed. One member liked what the 12BZ7 would do to the "crunch" of the green channel. However, the clean was affected, as there was more gain available. The 12BZ7 is safe to use in V1. I never used one in the Phase Inverter. I don't know anybody who has. I would have to caution you about using it there.

RSD 12AX7's-Do they have a small metal tag on the top mica spacer? A lot of RSD 12AX7's were relabeled Tungsram. If so, they are a premium V1 tube if they are still good.


----------



## RiverRatt

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> I have found some cheap NOS 12BZ7's. (tung sol, GE, RCA or Sylvania) I'd like to try one in my 1987x.
> Wich one of the brands mentioned above would you recommend for this tube and how would it sound in V3 ? (that's where I'd like to try it if I don't like it in V1)
> 
> Also, how are RSD 12AX7's?



The only 12BZ7's I've used have been RCA's. They don't sound too bad. Sylvania tubes are usually pretty rugged. It's really a toss-up. I did try one in the PI on my DSL once. It wasn't a good sound. I love the pinch harmonics when you use a BZ7 in V1, but they won't clean up. I also remember someone on here (Marty?) saying that you shouldn't run more than one in your amp at a time.

I don't think RSD made a tube of their own. They re-labeled just about anything from eastern Europe.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> It really depends on the tube and why it's getting weak. If it's getting weak due to a leak and loss of vacuum, it's a time bomb. If it is weak because the cathode coating has been boiled away, it can still last for years. I've got many old 6L6GC's that have years of use on them and they still test at 85% or so.



I have a 6L6G (I think you know where from... ) that tests at somewhere between 15 and 30 percent (don't remember exactly anymore) that actually doesn't sound half bad in the CA10, I can dime the entire thing and it's still quieter than a conversation though


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

MartyStrat54 said:


> Over a year ago. we experimented with 12BZ7's in DSL/TSL amps. The reviews were mixed. One member liked what the 12BZ7 would do to the "crunch" of the green channel. However, the clean was affected, as there was more gain available. The 12BZ7 is safe to use in V1. I never used one in the Phase Inverter. I don't know anybody who has. I would have to caution you about using it there.
> 
> RSD 12AX7's-Do they have a small metal tag on the top mica spacer? A lot of RSD 12AX7's were relabeled Tungsram. If so, they are a premium V1 tube if they are still good.



I'll pass up on the bz7 then.

I am getting one or two of the RSD 12ax7's a pair of 34's and maybe a 12bh7 for my blackstar then.

Edit: i have just found a NOS sylvania 12ax7 that I really want! I might be able to get myself one of those too. Pretty expensive though.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Marty, here's the RSD btw. Made by RFT in Germany.

http://www.tonefactory.nl/shop2/ecc83-12ax7-germany-p-11582.html


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I have the money for two rfd's, a matched pair of JJ el34's and a sylvania.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I knew it would be something like that. An RFT is a tube that is a little darker. It will help tame a bright amp. Some people really like them in V1. I have several customers that run them in their big 100 watt Marshall's and they love the tone. The RFT is pretty rugged. It has very small plates and therefore is less prone to microphonics. You should be happy with these. If the amp sounds too dark, run a different tube in V1 and the RFT in V2.

NOW ABOUT THE SYLVANIA??? How much is it? It should not be that expensive. What is the price on it?


----------



## mickeydg5

RSD = Rohrenspezialdients = Specialized in Tubes

Which was the German version of Richardsons Electronics Ltd.

Somebody check my German.


----------



## MM54

mickeydg5 said:


> RSD = Rohrenspezialdients = Specialized in Tubes
> 
> Which was the German version of Richardsons Electronics Ltd.
> 
> Somebody check my German.



German's close enough 

(ist sehr gut )


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm posting this on both threads. Nice selection of accurate data sheets courtesy of Myles Rose.

datasheets


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm posting this on both threads. Nice selection of accurate data sheets courtesy of Myles Rose.
> 
> datasheets



I particularly like the ones from Telefunken that are in German 

I don't know technical electronics German, only conversational. These datasheets are an excellent learning resource, too


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I actually spent some time looking over many of them. What I like is that they are usually dated near their introductory date. I like finding out when a certain tube was made.


----------



## RiverRatt

OK, this is starting to get out of control. I just sat down on the couch and there was a Westinghouse 6BQ5 sitting on the coffee table. I have no idea where it came from. I think I need a 12-step program for tube addicts.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> OK, this is starting to get out of control. I just sat down on the couch and there was a Westinghouse 6BQ5 sitting on the coffee table. I have no idea where it came from. I think I need a 12-step program for tube addicts.



Just think of all the tubes you don't know of sitting around there...

Lets go raid Alan's house!


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> OK, this is starting to get out of control. I just sat down on the couch and there was a Westinghouse 6BQ5 sitting on the coffee table. I have no idea where it came from. I think I need a 12-step program for tube addicts.



I was getting pretty bad before I left for college, in the two weeks before I left I 'found' a couple 12FQ8's in my room, a 1R5 in a drawer in my shop, and a relabeled Mullard ECL86 beside the computer 

I suppose you could say by coming here I went cold turkey


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that is why I check every box twice before throwing it out. Them damn tubes can hide real good.


----------



## MM54

It's why I don't throw away boxes


----------



## gameshound

Hey guy's(people)

My first post here...been creepin ya all for awhile now
I play marshall amps....but they are for acoustics!!!!!(and they are solid state!!!)
Please don't hate on me..ahahahahahahah...
i play 12 string acoustic and sing lead in my band(for about 15 years now)

However I am a serious tube lover...and seller,,,..especially the pre-amp kind I really enjoy reading the posts you peoples put up here and how willing you are to help out newbies

I have had some dealings with Marty and it wouldn't surprise me if some of you have my tubes in your amps right now
..i know he probably does!!

Mostly posted right now Cause I too would like to see pics of those 12ax7's that have codes for the Mitchum Plant!!!! hope he manages to post some

Let me know if I have made any etiquette errors with this post...I joined another forum once and got slammed hard!!!

Looking forward to getting to know you all better and to talking TUBES!!!

Gameshound


----------



## sccloser

Welcome to the forum Gameshound!


----------



## sccloser

Woo! Woo!

I found this tube lying in my cheapie pile that I pulled out of something. Never looked at it very closely until yesterday. I thought it was one of those Marshall labeled Shugs or something. It had tested on my Eico 667 very strong, 100/116. Looked at it a little closer yesterday...only marking is in white and says "ECC83M" and had micas similar to philips tubes. Round getter with 2 supports. Little metal tag on one of the getter supports with the number 76 stamped on it. I think this is a Tungsgram?


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. I knew it would be something like that. An RFT is a tube that is a little darker. It will help tame a bright amp. Some people really like them in V1. I have several customers that run them in their big 100 watt Marshall's and they love the tone. The RFT is pretty rugged. It has very small plates and therefore is less prone to microphonics. You should be happy with these. If the amp sounds too dark, run a different tube in V1 and the RFT in V2.
> 
> NOW ABOUT THE SYLVANIA??? How much is it? It should not be that expensive. What is the price on it?



I'll definately give the RSD a try then.

the sylvania is 49 euros. Here's a link: http://www.tonefactory.nl/shop2/sylvania-12ax7-ecc83-p-11956.html

Edit: How would one of those RSD 12ax7's sound in the PI slot?
Edit2: i have also found some GE 5751's for not too much money: http://www.tonefactory.nl/shop2/general-electric-5751-12ax7-p-1039.html


----------



## sccloser

Woo! Woo! Woo! Found another Tungsgram in my cheapie pile! (my Cheapie pile is where I put all the chinese and Sovtek tubes).


----------



## AxlOz

RiverRatt said:


> You sure that R isn't a B? It would make more sense that way. R is the Philips code for the Mullard Mitcham factory in Surrey. Most often, that first digit is a B, which is the code for the Mullard Blackburn plant. 2A1 is probably an older type code. The bottom digits are FACTORY/YEAR/MONTH, so you would have a Mitcham tube made in May of 1959 and the other was made in October 1958. I've never seen a tube from the Mitcham factory. Can you post some photos?



holy crap! so these are some nice tubes then!? It could be a B.. Its hard to read..

I've tried to snap some shots, rolling the first one over a bit to show the yellow-ish letters at the bottom. See here:






















I'd love to know if you guys can ID these...


----------



## MM54

That's not an R, it's the Ei symbol that's like a... erm... it's got a name in music but I can't think of it (upside down U with a dot in it). The Ei smoothplates are nice tubes, but they're not a mullard


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> That's not an R, it's the Ei symbol that's like a... erm... it's got a name in music but I can't think of it (upside down U with a dot in it). The Ei smoothplates are nice tubes, but they're not a mullard



That's some of the old ones, though. Still a great find. I like Ei tubes. They sound similar to a Telefunken but have a little more grind to them. Sorry for the bad info, but it sounded like you were describing a Mullard. Pictures always help.


----------



## solarburn

gameshound said:


> Hey guy's(people)
> 
> My first post here...been creepin ya all for awhile now
> I play marshall amps....but they are for acoustics!!!!!(and they are solid state!!!)
> Please don't hate on me..ahahahahahahah...
> i play 12 string acoustic and sing lead in my band(for about 15 years now)
> 
> However I am a serious tube lover...and seller,,,..especially the pre-amp kind I really enjoy reading the posts you peoples put up here and how willing you are to help out newbies
> 
> I have had some dealings with Marty and it wouldn't surprise me if some of you have my tubes in your amps right now
> ..i know he probably does!!
> 
> Mostly posted right now Cause I too would like to see pics of those 12ax7's that have codes for the Mitchum Plant!!!! hope he manages to post some
> 
> Let me know if I have made any etiquette errors with this post...I joined another forum once and got slammed hard!!!
> 
> Looking forward to getting to know you all better and to talking TUBES!!!
> 
> Gameshound



Welcome to the fold! Hang out and make yourself at home.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Why I want to become a tube roller

Well, none of us were born with the knowledge. 
I worked hard to get my shit. I don't own a car, I don't own a TV, I have the shittiest cell phone (It was actually a GIFT, I problably wouldnt even have a cell phone), I don't have internet, I use my job's internet. Fuck, I dont even own a WASHING MACHINE.
I just spent around 8 grand in a recording studio. And we still need to pay 2 more sessions, mixing and mastering. Thats a LOT OF MONEY for me at least. I'm in debt for the next year, but I DON'T GIVE A SHIT, because I used the money for something I love. 
People buy cars, buy houses, go on vacation, some buy shit they don't even use.
Yeah, I'm not a tech or a luthier, and I continue learning every day.

I joined the forum because of the knowledge I saw, and I learned A LOT so far. There are still some things that I don't know. 

I don't think you have to be a college graduate to buy a tube amp. If you fuck up, GOOD! Those are the best life lessons.
I ain't usin no SOLID STATE!!
I continue experimenting with what I have access to, and having access to one of the most important parts of a tube amp, and being able to experiment with different sounds, tube rolling sounds like a whole new door will open with tone/audio experimentation.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome GAMESHOUND. I see you decided to join. We are glad to have you. You will be an asset to our group. 

GAMESHOUND is a seller of fine quality preamp tubes. I did business with him a long time ago when I decided to buy a quantity of Electrohome 12AX7's and 7025's from him. He usually has multiple auctions running on EBAY. He resides in Canada.

Again. Glad to have you join our group.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got the DARIO's in the mail. I tested them right away. Three of the tubes reflect the sellers test results. However, one of the tubes is lopsided (25-37). This is an overseas deal and to get a refund, I would have to mail the tube back to Paris. 

Anyone need a fancy phase inverter tube?


----------



## solarburn

Wango Tango. Wango wango...

My face is a Maseraw-tay...

Wus up!


----------



## mickeydg5

Hello *Gameshound*. Some nice tubes you have. Weston 981, do you like it? I have wondered about them. They look nice.

*Marty*, what type of tester do you use? Make sure sure that the pins are straight and clean and that any selectors had best contact before ditching that tube.


----------



## solarburn

You peeps check out EL Jeffe's vid on the "power tube" thread yet?

He's pulverizing shit with his palm mutes. Run for cover...


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got the DARIO's in the mail. I tested them right away. Three of the tubes reflect the sellers test results. However, one of the tubes is lopsided (25-37). This is an overseas deal and to get a refund, I would have to mail the tube back to Paris.
> 
> Anyone need a fancy phase inverter tube?





I better buy textbooks for next semester first, then I may get back to you


----------



## solarburn

> Anyone need a fancy phase inverter tube?



Yeah nothing wrong with that tube if its going into a PI slot.

Did you try it in V1 just to see how it sounds?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes I did. Believe it or not, it sounds good in the JMP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> *Marty*, what type of tester do you use? Make sure sure that the pins are straight and clean and that any selectors had best contact before ditching that tube.



I have a late model B and K 707 that has been upgraded and calibrated. The thing is, the other three tubes tested as they should, so it isn't the tester.

I also did the "life" test on this tube and it did good.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes I did. Believe it or not, it sounds good in the JMP.



I thought it might even though its lopsided.


----------



## AxlOz

RiverRatt said:


> That's some of the old ones, though. Still a great find. I like Ei tubes. They sound similar to a Telefunken but have a little more grind to them. Sorry for the bad info, but it sounded like you were describing a Mullard. Pictures always help.



Sorry to disappoint yas! 

I've actually rolled them out of the superbass anyway, they were a little on the dark side it seems. Rolled a NOS sylvania into V1, which I find to be nice and bright, with a strong high-mid. New prod tung sols in v2 and v3.

What's some of the brightest and most hi gain AX7's you guys have come across? I'm gonna try some new prod chinese stuff just to satisfy curiosity, but generally i find them a little harsh.


----------



## RiverRatt

AxlOz said:


> What's some of the brightest and most hi gain AX7's you guys have come across? I'm gonna try some new prod chinese stuff just to satisfy curiosity, but generally i find them a little harsh.



Well, um, I would normally suggest an Ei. It's bright but not as hi-fi sounding as a Telefunken. You might like a hot Amperex or Electrohome. I'm running an Amperex in V1 on my Vintage Modern right now. I keep coming back to it. I didn't really care for them in the DSL.

BTW, welcome Gameshound. I just got in from work and have some catching up to do.


----------



## Jesstaa

Hey Marty, if you're not dealing internationally anymore, know of any places I can get NOS tubes in Aus/shipped to Aus?
Without having to sell my organs to afford it..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Jesstaa-PM sent.


----------



## gameshound

MartyStrat54 said:


> Welcome GAMESHOUND. I see you decided to join. We are glad to have you. You will be an asset to our group.
> 
> GAMESHOUND is a seller of fine quality preamp tubes. I did business with him a long time ago when I decided to buy a quantity of Electrohome 12AX7's and 7025's from him. He usually has multiple auctions running on EBAY. He resides in Canada.
> 
> Again. Glad to have you join our group.


 
Thanks for all the warm welcomes guys..feels like home already!!

Actually I have not been selling tubes for that long(3-4 years) and a lot of the things I have learnrd about them have come from this forum and hours and hours of research on the interweb!!!...I sure do appreciate the things I have learned here..many knowledgable people and willing to share 

Oh and yes I do love my newest tester..the weston 981 is built like a tank and gives very accurate results..very happy with it

Traded an old fieldcoil speaker for it..well worth it..one of the best deals I have made..and believe me I love deals

Was bummed(but happy for him..cause Old EI's are cool)..that those 12ax7's turned out not to be from the mitcham plant...would love to get my hands on something like that!!! As I am sure many of you would 2

I enjoy adding to my person 12ax7 collection,,,SO IF ANYBODY HAS ANY INTERESTING TRADES....i WOULD ALWAYS LIKE TO HERE ABOUT THEM!!!

Oh and by the way did anyone else think That 49 euro was a little high for the sylvania..Not sure where he is but i would think he could probably get one a little cheaper????.

guess last thing to say is maybe in the new year you peoples cna help me decide on a good Marshall combo


Gameshound


----------



## sccloser

Well, you guys will not believe this...I know I don't.

My band mate, whose only tube amp is a hybrid btw (he usually borrows a marshall from one of us) stumbled into the mother load of tubes for FREE! All this time I am hunting and buying tubes here and there and he just falls into a large cache!

Anyway, he got them from a mutual friend of our who is moving and was giving stuff away because he does not want to move it all. He gave my bud power amps, guitar parts and two caddies full of tubes. But these are not ordinary tubes. These are tubes he got from a shop that specialized in vintage gear when the shop closed it's retail store over 10 years ago. So most of the tubes are for guitar amps! My bud said he thinks there are about 60 12ax7's in one tray! But he has no idea what the others are..

So, being that I can identify them and can test them for ebay sales, I am at least in on the deal and will probably get a few of my picks...

If any of you guys are looking form anything in particular let me know and if I run across it I can put it aside for you. That will save my bud ebay fees at least and will get the tubes out into the best hands...


----------



## gameshound

MartyStrat54 said:


> Jesstaa-PM sent.


 

Thanks for the welcome..happy to be here!!!

Gameshound


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Well, you guys will not believe this...I know I don't.
> 
> My band mate, whose only tube amp is a hybrid btw (he usually borrows a marshall from one of us) stumbled into the mother load of tubes for FREE! All this time I am hunting and buying tubes here and there and he just falls into a large cache!
> 
> Anyway, he got them from a mutual friend of our who is moving and was giving stuff away because he does not want to move it all. He gave my bud power amps, guitar parts and two caddies full of tubes. But these are not ordinary tubes. These are tubes he got from a shop that specialized in vintage gear when the shop closed it's retail store over 10 years ago. So most of the tubes are for guitar amps! My bud said he thinks there are about 60 12ax7's in one tray! But he has no idea what the others are..
> 
> So, being that I can identify them and can test them for ebay sales, I am at least in on the deal and will probably get a few of my picks...
> 
> If any of you guys are looking form anything in particular let me know and if I run across it I can put it aside for you. That will save my bud ebay fees at least and will get the tubes out into the best hands...



I'd be interested in some BEL 12AX7's. Also looking forward to hearing what you may find...


----------



## MM54

I like weird stuff


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I like weird stuff



I thought we were talking about tubes? 

Scott, we need a list of what you find. Pictures will help. Can you have it posted by tomorrow? LOL.

I'd be interested in a few Raytheon black plates - I'm low on them right now. If you run across any Matsushita long plates with a D getter, I'll take those off your hands, and maybe any Matsushitas with the round slant getter if the price is right. Like Matt said, any abnormal 12AX7 is always fun. One other to look for: if you run across ANY 12AX7s with a clear top and side getter, I'll definitely do those, too.


----------



## MM54




----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Well, you guys will not believe this...I know I don't.
> 
> My band mate, whose only tube amp is a hybrid btw (he usually borrows a marshall from one of us) stumbled into the mother load of tubes for FREE! All this time I am hunting and buying tubes here and there and he just falls into a large cache!
> 
> Anyway, he got them from a mutual friend of our who is moving and was giving stuff away because he does not want to move it all. He gave my bud power amps, guitar parts and two caddies full of tubes. But these are not ordinary tubes. These are tubes he got from a shop that specialized in vintage gear when the shop closed it's retail store over 10 years ago. So most of the tubes are for guitar amps! My bud said he thinks there are about 60 12ax7's in one tray! But he has no idea what the others are..
> 
> So, being that I can identify them and can test them for ebay sales, I am at least in on the deal and will probably get a few of my picks...
> 
> If any of you guys are looking form anything in particular let me know and if I run across it I can put it aside for you. That will save my bud ebay fees at least and will get the tubes out into the best hands...


If you run acoss any Mazdas or Mullards, I may be interested. Or Tesla el34s....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a late model B and K 707 that has been upgraded and calibrated. The thing is, the other three tubes tested as they should, so it isn't the tester.
> 
> I also did the "life" test on this tube and it did good.



I think I've got my 707 working pretty well, but it's still testing high. I think it's the heaters. I'm still getting higher than normal readings after going through the calibration. I wish I had a Variac around so that I could be sure what the wall voltage is.


----------



## ken361

Japanese??

1 X ECC83 / 12AX7A MULLARD TEST STRONG SEE PHOTOS | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

SC-A lot depends on what the prices are going to be. I would be interested in any Philips made tube or Telefunkens. I would also be interested in a red tip CBS 12AX7.


----------



## sccloser

Prices should be in the "wholesale" range. Just trying to avoid Paypal. My buddy wants to raise some money for other gear. I'll see what we have, first, then go from there.

Edit: I meant trying to avoid ebay...not Paypal...ooops.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I have ordered a philips miniwatt 12ax7 today. 
Right after I ordered it (among with some other NOS tubes) I found out I could also get an amperex bugle boy 12ax7 for only 7,50€ more.
How does the bugle boy compare with the philips miniwatt? And did I make a mistake buying the philips if I could get a bugle boy for €7,50 more?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Right fellas, 5751 in V2 of a 900SL-X first impressions:

There is a definite difference, nothing massive, but a worthwhile improvement I think.

It seems to have warmed it up a little, it tames the harsh fizzy gain of that stage & seems to be a little creamier. There isn't as much ultimate gain available (well duh!!) but what there is seems more usable. Where I was at 10 on the preamp & barely off the bottom stop on sensitivity, I'm now at 12.5 sensitivity. with the preamp control flat out.

Dynamics are also improved (IMO), it retains more touch sensitivity & doesn't feel as compressed as with an ECC83 in there. I can go from the clean picking part from Love Walked In by Thunder, right up to the heavily overdriven lead part, just by using the guitar volume & mode switching of the pickup (EMG89) without losing much overall volume. 

In HB mode with the guitar at about half, it gets a good amount of drive & I found myself breaking into Take A Friend (Rush). Back it off a notch & I fell into The Boys Are Back in Town & the intro to Danzig's Mother. It's also helped reduce the hiss from the second stage a little too which is nice.

V1 is an old Brimar (you were right about that one Marty) which gives a classic bark, V3 is a GT12AX7, V4 is a Marshall (Shuguang) & the big ones are Sovtek 5881's.

I've rolled a few others into the V2 slot tonight:
An old Ei ECC83 robbed from my JMP1 - loads of gain & compression not too harsh.
A NOS Ei - Very similar to the one above, a bit brighter maybe.
An old blue print Mazda - Less gain than the Ei's, a bit more bite but still very nice, if the 5751 doesn't work out at volume, I'll keep this one in there instead.
The GT12AX7 it came with - Masses of gain, can be a bit harsh, toppy, even a little piercing (might make a good PI?)

I haven't been able to run at rehearsal volumes, but at moderate home volume it's sounding pretty good. I'll certainly leave it in & run it at our next rehearsal to give it a good try.

I'll try & get a recording together at some point too.


----------



## gameshound

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> I have ordered a philips miniwatt 12ax7 today.
> Right after I ordered it (among with some other NOS tubes) I found out I could also get an amperex bugle boy 12ax7 for only 7,50€ more.
> How does the bugle boy compare with the philips miniwatt? And did I make a mistake buying the philips if I could get a bugle boy for €7,50 more?



my two cents worth

You have not necessarily made a mistake. If the miniwatt is NOS..that is a good thing!! if it specs out as well as the bugleboy then you got yourself a a 7.50 savings in my opinion

What's funny is depending on the codes on the tube..they could both have been made in the same factory at the same time..Phillips tubes were marketed under many labels and brandnames...heck you can find tubes that are the exact same as bugle boys in all type of gear... they just have a differnt labels

I have sold many canadian made phillips 12ax7's and most people feel they are very very much like the herleen made 12ax7 "bugleboy's"

Hope that helps a bit!!!!!!!

Anyone else wanna chime in on this one?

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

sccloser said:


> Woo! Woo! Woo! Found another Tungsgram in my cheapie pile! (my Cheapie pile is where I put all the chinese and Sovtek tubes).



So nice to find those hidden gems huh!!! once I started educating myself I went back through many boxes s and uncoverd jewels that might have ended up getting thrown out!!!Nice score!!

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

sccloser said:


> Prices should be in the "wholesale" range. Just trying to avoid Paypal. My buddy wants to raise some money for other gear. I'll see what we have, first, then go from there.



I would certainly be interested in being kept up to date on these when they are availilble..I do love a good deal!!!

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

mickeydg5 said:


> Hello *Gameshound*. Some nice tubes you have. Weston 981, do you like it? I have wondered about them. They look nice.
> 
> *Marty*, what type of tester do you use? Make sure sure that the pins are straight and clean and that any selectors had best contact before ditching that tube.



hey thanks for the welcome..yes I love my westop 981..by far the best tester I have owned..built like a tank..accurate results!!! only thing is i would like to get my hands on data for some of the tubes not on the roll chart...like 6eu7 for example...got about 25 of those suckers i would like to test and sell

Gameshound


----------



## mickeydg5

gameshound said:


> hey thanks for the welcome..yes I love my westop 981..by far the best tester I have owned..built like a tank..accurate results!!! only thing is i would like to get my hands on data for some of the tubes not on the roll chart...like 6eu7 for example...got about 25 of those suckers i would like to test and sell
> 
> Gameshound


 
Well all I can say is call RadiolaGuy or SND Tube Sales (vacuumtubes.com) and ask if they might have something more for the 981-3.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> Japanese??
> 
> 1 X ECC83 / 12AX7A MULLARD TEST STRONG SEE PHOTOS | eBay



I would guess that it's a Matsushita. The guts look right. I'm pretty sure it's not a Valvo. Whatever it is, it ain't a Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the first big clue is "IEC." This tells me that we are dealing with later production. I would say "No" to it being a VALVO. I will lean towards what Alan said and say it is a Matsushita.

If it's a 70's tube, nothing surprises me about country of origin.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

Wow, spectacular pics RiverRatt.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah those pics are killer for ID'ing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

We have quality people on this thread.

You'd better believe it.


----------



## SmokeyDopey

This thread is like the bible of pre amp tubes.

There should be copies made, and everyone should have a copy by the side of their bed.


----------



## AxlOz

Blacque Jacque said:


> Right fellas, 5751 in V2 of a 900SL-X first impressions: --SNIP--



The SLX amps really shine with the right tubes in the pre. I've done similar things with my 50w SLX as you. The lower gain tube in V2 is a big plus, otherwise it just gets too noisy and distorted too quickly.
I'll double check what arrangement I have in mine when I get home today, but I'm pretty sure I have either an Aussie made super radiotron, or an RCA in V1 and a sovtek 12AX7WC in V2. For some reason the new sovtek WC's are amazingly clear. They maintain volume and clarity, but dont break up so much. I've used them in my SLX, my Mig100, and bogner alchemist, all to the same effect.

Again, I'll double check the config in my SLX tonight and post here, but I can plug my LP in, dial a small amount into the preamp gain, and a small amount into the saturation and get clean tones out of it. Not squeaky fender clean, but clean. When I get time I'll do some clips too.

Keep us posted on your tube rollings though, I enjoy hearing about these things, especially with amps I also own!


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> I would guess that it's a Matsushita. The guts look right. I'm pretty sure it's not a Valvo. Whatever it is, it ain't a Mullard.



I thought so on the Matsushita, IEC relabel those or is he scamming


----------



## RiverRatt

SmokeyDopey said:


> Wow, spectacular pics RiverRatt.



I just pasted a link to the photos from the auction that ken posted. They are good, but I didn't do it. They will probably disappear after a few days.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the first big clue is "IEC." This tells me that we are dealing with later production. I would say "No" to it being a VALVO. I will lean towards what Alan said and say it is a Matsushita.
> 
> If it's a 70's tube, nothing surprises me about country of origin.



I think Matsushita had switched to the halo getters by the 1970s. Worthless tubes. The D getter and the slant getter are the only ones worth mentioning.

Here's a pic of each one so you can see the differences. In order of production, the long-plate D getter, the slant getter from the 1960s and the halo getter from the 1970s. The D getter is the one that I think rivals a Mullard long-plate. I've never seen a D getter with a date code more recent than 1959.


----------



## ken361

I payed like 15 bucks for one like like those last year, wasnt a bad tube


----------



## RiverRatt

The first ones I got were Realistic labeled. I got 3 of them for $15 shipped.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I think they still could have made some of the slant getter tubes in the early 70's "or" they had an overstock of them that got relabeled.

One thing I have learned here on the forum is that the Japanese were entrenched in tube making a lot earlier than I had first thought. All of the old guard manufacturers were bailing out on production before 1960. All of my 12AD7's are NEC's, yet these and the other exotic 12AX7's were supposedly originally manufactured by the USA brands, but I've never found one yet.

I always say 1965 is the year that solid state hit the big times. However, well before that, all the USA electronics giants were making transistorized products. My dad won a GE transistorized radio (made in Japan) for selling a quota of automotive shocks. That was a damn good radio and it lasted through the hands of many young kids in the family. I believe this was late 1963. The hifi change was 1965. It's amazing to look at all of the Japanese hifi units on EBAY that have all tube innards.

The main thing is that "our" manufactures looked to Japan as a way to continue to make service parts cheaper than what they could be made in the USA. I don't know exactly the year that the Japanese started making tubes, but they got real good at making them real fast. (They got real good at making TV's as well, but that's another story.)


----------



## mickeydg5

That IEC looks Japanese. IEC was a distributor of Mullard. You can find other makes with the IEC Mullard name on them too.

I notice that Mullard types from India or Japan usualy have a hole that shows on both sides of each plate fin. Other Mullards have the hole towrds the front of the box. The Japan variety usually have the common crossbar for the filament tie-in at pin nine. I also hav never seen the mica notch (half moon) in front of the box section on the Japan types.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> That IEC looks Japanese. IEC was a distributor of Mullard. You can find other makes with the IEC Mullard name on them too.
> 
> I notice that Mullard types from India or Japan usualy have a hole that shows on both sides of each plate fin. Other Mullards have the hole towrds the front of the box. The Japan variety usually have the common crossbar for the filament tie-in at pin nine. I also hav never seen the mica notch (half moon) in front of the box section on the Japan types.



I'm not following you... can you post a pic of what you're talking about or describe it further?


----------



## mickeydg5

riverratt said:


> i'm not following you... Can you post a pic of what you're talking about or describe it further?


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> We have quality people on this thread.
> 
> You'd better believe it.


 
Between Marty and Alan here....I have really learned so much.....my JCM800 sounds fantastic..My Superlead is gutsier than ever......I've got a small collection of vintage tubes going....and I take their advice everytime....Thx Rawkers....Peace....61


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I've said this before that it would be nice if there was a book that showed all the tube makers no matter how small. How long they were in business. Who they bought tubes from. Who relabeled. What equipment went where and who used it. You know, stuff like that. Instead, it a frickin' mystery.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> View attachment 7039
> 
> 
> View attachment 7040



The little slit in the mica, right?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> The little slit in the mica, right?


 
The small half circle at the edge of the mica directly in front of the ribbed box. Top and bottom.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay. I just couldn't visualize it. I thought that was probably what you were talking about. I'm trying to watch the baseball game and jump on here every now and then and my brain is still in baseball mode. The Cardinals won't go away! 

Yeah, there are so many little design quirks from one factory to another. Every time I get an oddball tube I take pictures of it and put it in my tube library.

Ever seen any of these? I thought for ages that they were made by RCA but the side-getter is the only reason. I think they were manufactured by Sonotone. The RCA clear tops from that era had flat sides on the micas. This is one of them that I got out of a Magnavox console.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I've said this before that it would be nice if there was a book that showed all the tube makers no matter how small. How long they were in business. Who they bought tubes from. Who relabeled. What equipment went where and who used it. You know, stuff like that. Instead, it a frickin' mystery.


 
I know you won't agree, but the mystery part is half the fun of it.....wonder why it's a guessing game....maybe at the time of production, no one thought that there would be any value 50 yrs down the road. Also...I've noticed the market on ebay has gone up the last couple of weeks...harder to find those deals I was slipping under the radar....there's another pair of Genalex 12ax7s with about a $1800 bid on them....


----------



## 61rocker

Oh yeah....GO CARDS!!!


----------



## sccloser

I got to rehearsal early tonight and took my class5 apart to swap tubes...real pita...anyway, I put an Ei in v1, one of the Tungsgrams I found in v2 and the Mullard el84 for the pt. Hard to say if the mullard made much difference being that I swapped all tubes. The original tubes were jj v1, chionese triple mica v2 and I think a jj pt.
The class5 is usually pretty bassy. The tube swap brightened it up a bit. Seemed a little less muddythan before. I think I got a little more headroom yet a little smoother od. My bandmates said it sounded better to them. I think it sounds some better but I need to play with it some more. I did notice that when I hit it with the ts9 clone it seemed looser than before...which sometimes comes with smooth. Also, I think that the class5 has some fizziness to the od that seems to be reduced somewhat since the tube swap.
Anyway, these are my initial impressions.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Okay. I just couldn't visualize it. I thought that was probably what you were talking about. I'm trying to watch the baseball game and jump on here every now and then and my brain is still in baseball mode. The Cardinals won't go away!
> 
> Yeah, there are so many little design quirks from one factory to another. Every time I get an oddball tube I take pictures of it and put it in my tube library.
> 
> Ever seen any of these? I thought for ages that they were made by RCA but the side-getter is the only reason. I think they were manufactured by Sonotone. The RCA clear tops from that era had flat sides on the micas. This is one of them that I got out of a Magnavox console.


 

787 is Sonotone. 9th week of 1949 probably. US manufacturer in NY. Also sold relabeled. I have seen vintage Japanese with the same construction.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I've said this before that it would be nice if there was a book that showed all the tube makers no matter how small. How long they were in business. Who they bought tubes from. Who relabeled. What equipment went where and who used it. You know, stuff like that. Instead, it a frickin' mystery.



As a group of the major contributors to this this thread, we should try to put together such a book or reference or something. I'd be a-okay with putting it on my server for the whole of the internet to be able to reference


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> 787 is Sonotone. 9th week of 1949 probably. US manufacturer in NY. Also sold relabeled. I have seen vintage Japanese with the same construction.



Wow, that old? That might explain why they are so scarce. We were about 99.9% sure they were Sonotone tubes but I couldn't find much info on Sonotone. All the info I was finding was about phono cartridges.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Wow, that old? That might explain why they are so scarce. We were about 99.9% sure they were Sonotone tubes but I couldn't find much info on Sonotone. All the info I was finding was about phono cartridges.


 
They were into a lot of stuff, not just phono cartridges, and were around for a good part of the century.
The Sonotone Corporation


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Here are my current NOS tubes:


----------



## 61rocker

This is a shameless plug for another song I posted on The Cellar....."Like Old Blue Jeans Do..."....any comments welcome...Thx Rawkers....61


----------



## johnfv

Alan, you need to clean up some PM space...


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry. I'm bad about that. Should be plenty of room now.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I recieved my RSD 12ax7 today. Made in germany by RFT. Awsome tube. I put it in V1 of my 1987x. V2 is a TAD 7025 and V3 is a sovtek 12ax7. I ordered some more nos tubes for the preamp but they will come in the mail tuesday.Can't wait!


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up these today at a little music shop on my way to Nashville. $25 for the two 5751's, a GE Canada 6L6GC and three tall bottle Sylvania 6L6GC's. Not too bad. The 6L6GC's all test between 85%-90% according to the guy at the shop. I haven't tested them yet.






If we hadn't just been discussing these 5751's I might have passed over them, but my curiosity was up and they were cheap.


----------



## 61rocker

I've been wanting to try some to...I've looked at a few on fleabay...haven't pulled the trigger yet....plz let me know how they sound.....How's N'ville....do they miss me yet....?lol....


----------



## RiverRatt

Nashville has the best Guitar Center I've ever been in. They have a phenomenal selection of new, used and vintage gear. Everybody was really helpful. No complaints at all. Unfortunately I didn't make it to Sam Ash or any other stores. We were kinda pressed for time. I came out with a Tweaker 15 head without any money changing hands. That's what I was after in the first place so all is well.


----------



## 61rocker

Yeah.....of the bad Guitar Centers I've been in....the Nashville one rawks....I love the vintage room....bet you can't wait to tweak the tweaker....Egnator is one amp brand I really like....


----------



## RiverRatt

They had one Egnater in Memphis last time I was there - a Rebel 30. It was on the clearance display. They had a handful of Fenders, a couple of Marshalls, a Vox and an orange here and there. Not much new stock at all.


----------



## 61rocker

I had a salesman at a music store that sold new Orange amps in Little Rock tell me that each Orange amp is built by the same person start to finish....


----------



## RiverRatt

The Canadian 6L6GC I picked up is weird looking, almost like a 6CA7. It's got two big heat fins like an EL34.


----------



## MM54

That IS a very strange looking 6L6GC... Not sure what to tell you


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys, 

Just finished the B&K rebuild. Broke down and soldered in the #55 bulbs (got a couple NOS GE bulbs), tested all the resistors (man, that was a pain), calibrated with the Mallory line voltage regulator (variac) at 117v. She's as accurate as she's ever gonna be.


----------



## sccloser

Have not had a chance to check out my friend's cache of tubes yet but I expect I will get to later today.

I got 5 more in the mail today. All checked very strong NOS. I got an Amperex Made in Holland, A Raytheon (gray plate), an RCA Black plate, a GE and what looks to be an RCA long plate. Got these for what I would have paid for just 2 CP tubes in the store...


----------



## Dingle87

Hi im not quite a marshall amp owner just yet but very close to. But maybe someone can explain something for me. Basically im looking at getting a marshall haze but not sure to get the head or combo. Looking at there specs, the head uses power amp valves 2x 6v6.................. and the combo uses power amp valves EL34........... Could someone please kindly tell me what the difference is? 

Thanks guys.


----------



## mickeydg5

Dingle87 said:


> Hi im not quite a marshall amp owner just yet but very close to. But maybe someone can explain something for me. Basically im looking at getting a marshall haze but not sure to get the head or combo. Looking at there specs, the head uses power amp valves 2x 6v6.................. and the combo uses power amp valves EL34........... Could someone please kindly tell me what the difference is?
> 
> Thanks guys.


 
Main diff is 6v6 = 15 watt and el34 = 40 watt.
you may want to look at Haze threads and ask about tonal preferences.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are two completely different sounding amps. The head is a 15 watt, 6V6 amp and the Haze combo is a 40 watt, EL34 amp. I'm not sure why they did it this way as it doesn't make sense to me. If I were Marshall, I would have done it in reverse fashion with a 15 watt combo and a 40 watt head.

There are a few amp manufacturer's that can make a pretty sweet 6V6 amp, but for the most part, I like the sound of an EL84 in a small amp. The Haze 40 uses EL34's and it has a more traditional Marshall tone. I'm hearing that the power tubes last quite a bit longer in the HAZE 40.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Main diff is 6v6 = 15 watt and el34 = 40 watt.
> you may want to look at Haze threads and ask about tonal preferences.



MICKEY-I'm sure glad you joined our little group here. I can tell you know your stuff. Much appreciated.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> MICKEY-I'm sure glad you joined our little group here. I can tell you know your stuff. Much appreciated.


 
Thank you Marty. Back at you. You are definetly appreciated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If anyone cares, I've been gone since Friday. I went back to my old hometown in Blackwell, OK to visit some of my old friends. I just got back an hour ago.

On Friday night, my buddy Bob grilled me a 10-inch long, two-inch thick ribeye with a huge baked potato and fried okra. Man, was that good. I didn't eat all day so I basically sucked that all down without a hitch.

Saturday was a big OU Sooners football party. I sure like looking at 25 year old girls (he-he). I realized that I can still drink a lot of beers if the moment is right.

I will be contacting JOE and ALAN tomorrow and we will finalize the tube contest winner.


----------



## MartyStrat54

gameshound said:


> my two cents worth
> 
> You have not necessarily made a mistake. If the miniwatt is NOS..that is a good thing!! if it specs out as well as the bugleboy then you got yourself a a 7.50 savings in my opinion
> 
> What's funny is depending on the codes on the tube..they could both have been made in the same factory at the same time..Phillips tubes were marketed under many labels and brandnames...heck you can find tubes that are the exact same as bugle boys in all type of gear... they just have a differnt labels
> 
> I have sold many canadian made phillips 12ax7's and most people feel they are very very much like the herleen made 12ax7 "bugleboy's"
> 
> Hope that helps a bit!!!!!!!
> 
> Anyone else wanna chime in on this one?
> 
> Gameshound



Wow! I wrote out a post about this before I left and I must have forgot to enter it. In short form, I stated what Gameshound said, that is, both tubes could have been made at the Herleen plant and sound very similar. In regards to Philips made tubes, one must educate themselves in the art of gut identification and the tube codes. This will let you know what you got. 

I'll make sure that I hit the "Submit Reply" button.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Just finished the B&K rebuild. Broke down and soldered in the #55 bulbs (got a couple NOS GE bulbs), tested all the resistors (man, that was a pain), calibrated with the Mallory line voltage regulator (variac) at 117v. She's as accurate as she's ever gonna be.



Way to go Dude Master. 

She should work for you for a long time. You got a good one for a decent price. Of course, I'm partial to the B and K's. They are just so much faster to use than a Hickok. Wish I could afford the AT-1000.


----------



## RiverRatt

Welcome back, Martimus. Yeah, Mickey has really contributed a lot to the discussions. Check out the Canada 6L6GC I posted on this page. I haven't seen that design before. The micas look RCA-ish. I also got another pair of those Sylvania tall bottle 6L6GC's, an RCA black plate 6L6GC and that Canadian one. This is the same guy I got the Amperex ECC83 and two 6L6GC pairs a month or so ago. That gives me four good matched pairs of RCA black plate 6L6GC's. 

I passed up a couple of RCA 12AX7A's - I don't know why. I've got a handful of them already, but they would have probably been $5 for the pair. Oh well, it gives me an excuse to go back by there in a few weeks.

Sorry... when I posted this it was on the same page as the pic of the Canadian glass. You'll have to go a page back now.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Way to go Dude Master.
> 
> She should work for you for a long time. You got a good one for a decent price. Of course, I'm partial to the B and K's. They are just so much faster to use than a Hickok. Wish I could afford the AT-1000.



Thanks Marty!

Welcome back! Sounds like you had a good time. 

I am really happy with the 700. I've played around with a Hickok and a Military TV-177. But it took forever to get the readings. It was nice to actually get the micro ohm reading, but the 700 works great for what I want it to do.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marshall Mann said:


> Thanks Marty!
> 
> Welcome back! Sounds like you had a good time.
> 
> I am really happy with the 700. I've played around with a Hickok and a Military TV-177. But it took forever to get the readings. It was nice to actually get the micro ohm reading, but the 700 works great for what I want it to do.


 

Marshall Mann
That is a 700 you just calibrated? Do me a favor and look at the schematic. Tell me what wall voltage is called out on the PT input.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> If anyone cares, I've been gone since Friday. I went back to my old hometown in Blackwell, OK to visit some of my old friends. I just got back an hour ago.
> 
> On Friday night, my buddy Bob grilled me a 10-inch long, two-inch thick ribeye with a huge baked potato and fried okra. Man, was that good. I didn't eat all day so I basically sucked that all down without a hitch.
> 
> Saturday was a big OU Sooners football party. I sure like looking at 25 year old girls (he-he). I realized that I can still drink a lot of beers if the moment is right.
> 
> I will be contacting JOE and ALAN tomorrow and we will finalize the tube contest winner.


 
Welcome Back Marty....


----------



## ant_riv

"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

Just saw the original thread and I'm glad I made it in before the deadline. Great idea Marty and it is fantastic of you to initiate it!

My "essay" is rather simple.

I would like to be a "tube roller" but I don't have the funds to be one. I grew up with what is now NOS tubes when they were just New. Always took them for granted because you could walk into any music store, television shop or local Jewel/Osco and buy what you needed.

Kids came along, most of the tube amps got sold off. Kids got older, was able to get back into it. Unfortunately, time changed the whole market. The only tubes available OTC are Chinese or Russian. NOS tubes are way too expensive to gamble on one or two that _might_ rekindle the old magic. Or they might just be used up old tubes. Either way, it is never a good idea to chase 20 year-old tone memories when they can get so expensive!

Tough to know where to start and who to trust, and money is too tight to risk purchasing without knowing which tubes really would make an improvement in tone versus which wouldn't.

Best wishes to everyone who entered!

And thanks to Marty and everyone who contributes to making this a great forum for Marshall-lovers!


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Marshall Mann
> That is a 700 you just calibrated? Do me a favor and look at the schematic. Tell me what wall voltage is called out on the PT input.



It should be the same as my 707. It says to calibrate it at 117VAC.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> If anyone cares, I've been gone since Friday. I went back to my old hometown in Blackwell, OK to visit some of my old friends. I just got back an hour ago.
> 
> On Friday night, my buddy Bob grilled me a 10-inch long, two-inch thick ribeye with a huge baked potato and fried okra. Man, was that good. I didn't eat all day so I basically sucked that all down without a hitch.
> 
> Saturday was a big OU Sooners football party. I sure like looking at 25 year old girls (he-he). I realized that I can still drink a lot of beers if the moment is right.
> 
> I will be contacting JOE and ALAN tomorrow and we will finalize the tube contest winner.



Man you are always getting good food when you go places.LOL

Plus I just woke up and am hungry hehe.

25yr old hotties...oh my...


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Check out the Canada 6L6GC I posted on this page. I haven't seen that design before. The micas look RCA-ish.
> 
> Sorry... when I posted this it was on the same page as the pic of the Canadian glass. You'll have to go a page back now.



Yeah I saw that. Just remember RCA had a tube plant in Canada. Where was it? Hell, maybe Mickey knows. My 6BQ5's in my 401 are RCA Canada. Brent Jessee likes the Canadian 6L6GC's.


----------



## sccloser

Welcome back, Marty. Glad you did not get an overnight stay at the sheriffs bed and breakfast. 

Well, I got to check out my friends tube cache today. For those of you who missed it, my buddy and bandmate was given a HUGE assortment of tubes last week. He got 3 of the large caddies plus a 4foot x 3foot wooden box FULL of tubes. he called me when he first got it and said he thought he had at least 60 12ax7's and a bunch of other tubes. I have been foaming at the mouth to see these ever since.


Today I met with him and saw his stash. I estimate there to be well over 1200 tubes! The biggest part of them are even some what organized. All are in boxes and are NOS. It was quite impressive.

That's the good news.

Now the bad...

These were accumulated by a friend of mine that is guitar and amp guy and used to run a shop. I could tell you who the original owner is and you would probably know who I was talking about. He has dealt in vintage gear for years. When he closed down his brick and mortar shop, the tubes were acquired by another friend of mine who works pt in a pawn shop and buys and sells guitars and amps online as well. That is who my buddy got the tubes from, and he got them for FREE! SOOOOOOO.....

It seems that just about all the useful tubes in this batch has already been picked over. I found 1 12AV7, 2 6QA5's, a butt load of 6QA6's (about 20 or more) even bigger butt load of 6GH8's (about 10 of which were mullards) and a whole bunch of other stuff that just is not useful for us guitar guys. My buddy got the 6QA5's for his Gibson Skylark amp. 

I did find a couple of 12BE6's...I think MM was looking for those before. 

There were 3 HUGE tubes, 2 in RCA boxes and 1 in a GE box. The boxes were like the size of a coke can. They had the old fashioned looking tubes in them that balloon out bigger than the base. Those were cool. I am going to check to see if any would be good for the HAM guys.

It seems that my buddy thought that any box that was the same size as a 12ax7 box meant a 12ax7 was in it. 

So, so much for the big score. It had been picked over twice already.


----------



## RiverRatt

Unfortunately, most deals that turn out that way. What you need to do is go through those tubes box-by-box. A lot of the old repair guys would stick a tube in whatever box was handy and maybe write the new tube # on the box or maybe not. Old inked-on numbers fade after a time, too. If nobody has gone through them box-by-box yet, there still might be a few surprises.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a <sniff> sad story.


----------



## RiverRatt

Been rolling tubes in the Tweaker this evening. I went with a known combination. I put one of those Matsushita long-plates in V1, a Raytheon JRP that's super-high gain in V2, and a JAN Sylvania with green print for the P.I. I know that V2 is the effects loop but I was going to try it jumpered and I wanted to see if a hot tube there made a difference. I don't think it did. For the power section, I've thrown half my collection in it. Right now it has some of those tall Sylvania 6L6GC's in it. The Russian 6P3S sound great in it, too. Still got some 5881's, EL34's and KT66's to try in it. It sounds much better than my old one with the Marshall 1966B cab (sorry, Cody). The Eminence Legends in that cheap Memphis-made 2x12 sound pretty damn good. 61rocker wanted a clip, I'm going to go post a teaser in the Tweaker thread.


----------



## sccloser

Alan, is that the 15 watt tweaker or the 40?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, good to hear you grabbed another tweaker!


----------



## RiverRatt

It's another Tweaker 15. That's all I needed. With that big ol' 2x12 cab it gets plenty loud. The only problem is that with that 2x12 cabinet it's bigger than the combo I got rid of to buy the Tweaker. It's ready for rollin'. I took the top and back grilles off, then took the tube retainers off the octal sockets. I really don't see a need for them in a head. This is what I recorded for 61rocker. The left side is the Marshall setting, the right is the Fender setting. Gain set to Hot, about 12 o'clock.

tweaker.mp3


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Alan, good to hear you grabbed another tweaker!



Thanks, Cody. I knew it was going to happen sooner or later. That amp is just too much fun not to have. It's great having an amp that you can roll power tubes in as easily as preamp tubes. You can't do that with the Tweaker 40 or 88 except for a few tubes that will bias up in them.


----------



## brp

The clip sounds cool.

I wanted to get a Tweaker as it seems tailor made for someone with my needs, but I couldn't find anyone who sold them locally when I was buying an amp last year. Then of course, after I bought TWO small tube amps, I stumbled upon an Egnater dealer in my area. 
Maybe someday I'll find a deal on a used one, now that I'm a little more confident about buying used tube amps.



And that is a sad story about the tube cache find. Man, I wish my Dad still had all of those tubes from back in the day. I watched him throw out boxes of them in the 80's. May not have been anything good for guitar amps anyway though.

I got sniped on an auction a couple days ago. It was a NIB 6681 though but it sold for under 15 shipped so I was going to get it just to check it out.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> It's another Tweaker 15. That's all I needed. With that big ol' 2x12 cab it gets plenty loud. The only problem is that with that 2x12 cabinet it's bigger than the combo I got rid of to buy the Tweaker. It's ready for rollin'. I took the top and back grilles off, then took the tube retainers off the octal sockets. I really don't see a need for them in a head. This is what I recorded for 61rocker. The left side is the Marshall setting, the right is the Fender setting. Gain set to Hot, about 12 o'clock.
> 
> tweaker.mp3



So, you can swap out the 6v6's for 5881's in the Tweaker? And for 6L6's? 

Also, does it have a footswitchable channels?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, it will accept just about any octal power tubes without biasing. Just put 'em in and start playing. 

No channel switching, either. There's only one channel with 3 different voicings. It doesn't bother me, but I don't ever use it for gigging. Cody uses his for band rehearsals.


----------



## MM54

I can verify that it's awesome to have an amp that you can roll power tubes in as easily as the preamp


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> It should be the same as my 707. It says to calibrate it at 117VAC.


 
Do you have a special calibration paper or are you using the basic manual?
I don't know where the 117V number comes from. That is why I am asking.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I saw that. Just remember RCA had a tube plant in Canada. Where was it? Hell, maybe Mickey knows. My 6BQ5's in my 401 are RCA Canada. Brent Jessee likes the Canadian 6L6GC's.


 
Here are some observations though I am not claiming to be an expert on glass. What I see there though is a GE 6L6GC made in Canada. I have seen those straight edge micas before but on RCA relabels made by GE. The plates are identical to other GE 6L6GC's and 7581's that I have seen before. What is odd is the grid fins. I don't remember seeing those before. Usually there is a U shaped fin across the grid post. Then again there are lots of 6L6 tubes with no fins.

RCA is a GE venture that bought up a lot of Marconi on the west side.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Do you have a special calibration paper or are you using the basic manual?
> I don't know where the 117V number comes from. That is why I am asking.



Here's a link to the manual/schematic for the B&K 700. The schematic shows 117VAC line voltage. It doesn't specifically mention 117VAC in the calibration part of the manual on the 700, but I think it is mentioned in the 707. I'll dig out the manual for mine and see what it says.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/877167/B%26K_700_Manual%26Schematic.pdf


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, it will accept just about any octal power tubes without biasing. Just put 'em in and start playing.
> 
> No channel switching, either. There's only one channel with 3 different voicings. It doesn't bother me, but I don't ever use it for gigging. Cody uses his for band rehearsals.



Would it be possible to run el 34's or el84's in it with the appropriate adapters?


----------



## lonewolfsx

Alrighty, I'll have go at this then.




"Why I want to become a tube roller." 

I would love to become a tube roller because I have deep appreciation for the tonal qualities that tubes allow me to create. As a student currently in college, I do not have the funding to purchase many tubes for my amplifier, but I enjoy swapping around the tubes I already own.

The technology of analog tubes has always intrigued me, even before becoming a guitar player. Tubes were used previously in radar systems, and more recently in the Russian Mig-25 Foxbat's radar system, which was considered obsolete by NATO. However, the tubes allowed for much more heat and electrical resistance at high altitudes as opposed to transistors used in other aircraft, which was critical for a reconnaissance/interceptor.

I really appreciate the uses of the technology and really hope it is never considered obsolete. I am learning more about tubes every day and consider it extremely interesting. Music is really the last area still making use of tube technologies, and is a very interesting conglomeration of analog and digital systems, which provides the flavor and feel of music we hear today. I for one, love the feel, vibe, and sound of "vintage" guitar tones and would be disappointed if we lost that timbre in music of the future.

As a future tube roller, I plan to make careful use of the tubes and will try my absolute best to ensure their use in future music recordings.

-Bret

Thanks for doing this Marty, this kind of thing is unheard of nowadays and is really appreciated.
EDIT: Hmmm it didn't like my indents. Oh well I tried to format it the best I could.


----------



## RiverRatt

It will run EL34's as-is. You could get some of those Yellowjacket adapters and try EL84's.


----------



## sccloser

Dude, I want one. :eek2: Where do I enter the contest to win a Tweaker?


----------



## sccloser

Guys got one for sale on the local cl for $300........


----------



## MM54

The CA10 is also compatible with various power tubes 

They'll be available this summer...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought about having a contest and the prize would be my premo Schecter Elite guitar in cherry sunburst. But then I thought there would only be 20 entries so WTF?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Guys got one for sale on the local cl for $300........



That's not bad, but you can trade in an effects pedal you're not using at GC and get 10% off a new one. Add that to whatever they allow you for your trade-in, and you can walk out with a brand-new one under warranty.

That clip I did was with an SM58 on axis on one of the Legends in my 2x12. Absolutely dry - nothing but the guitar, a cable, and the amp. I usually use an SM57 but it took a squat on me the last time I tried it. I can't complain, I got it and the SM58 back in the 1980's.

The guitar was that $150 Ibanez RG5 that I got from MF. That's the best deal I've gotten from them. That thing was a brand-new $400 guitar and some idiot had put 10's on it and complained that it wouldn't stay in tune. He returned it and they had it on their used sale for $150, condition 4 - needs repair, as-is. It took me a tremolo spring and all of 10 minutes to have that thing playing RIGHT.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought about having a contest and the prize would be my premo Schecter Elite guitar in cherry sunburst. But then I thought there would only be 20 entries so WTF?



Don't start giving away guitars. A few tubes here and there isn't a big deal, but I wouldn't turn loose of one of my planks without some $$$.


----------



## scat7s

ok, here is my entry to the tube-o-rama. thanks marty and RR for your contributions, very generous of you.

i was going to record a couple riffs, and use my tone to tell my story, like that if you heard my tone youd go"damn, weve gotta give this kid the tubes, he needs em" haha.

but, then the storm rolled in, and being one of those guys who always puts things off, i didnt have power or time to do it. 

ive done some tube rolling b4, im not really a newby at it, but im no expert either, i love it. its my favorite part of tone searching.

anyway, if you guys pick me, i will probably be less inclined to post up political and/or controversial stuff in the backstage area, cuz i'll be way too busy rollin some fucking tubes! 

hell yeah!

thanks guys...


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers....Happy Halloween!! Me, I just sitting at home.......Hey Marty, since you showed interest in the Siemans 12ax7 I won a while back, I'm going home to pick it up Wed..I post some of the codes on it in a day or two....If it's not one of the really good Siemans...what are some other types could it be....I rolled the dice hoping it was perhaps an RFT tube just to check it out....it was less than $10....

The pic?...."Not a bad way to go....."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't have any kids the past two years and it looks the same for tonight. Great, that's three bags of bite size candy bars I'm gonna end up eating.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a link to the manual/schematic for the B&K 700. The schematic shows 117VAC line voltage. It doesn't specifically mention 117VAC in the calibration part of the manual on the 700, but I think it is mentioned in the 707. I'll dig out the manual for mine and see what it says.
> 
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/877167/B%26K_700_Manual%26Schematic.pdf


 

The 117 is usually what you can't see on most copies. The 700 and 707 look almost the same at a glance. I just notice that the book indicates operation at 105-125 with 115VAC being the median. 115 & 117 gives 1.71% difference. But if the 117VAC gives the proper secondary voltages than that is the correct number.

I was just wondering about it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I went through all this stuff when I got my 707. I've still got some work to do. I thought a good Fluke meter would work for all the tests, and apparently that's not so.


----------



## MM54

Bah, that reminds me I still need to find a good Variac for my bench as well as a nice bench meter >.<

What are you having issues with the fluke for, RR? I used a Fluke 87V in a class the other day, it was nice


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I went through all this stuff when I got my 707. I've still got some work to do. I thought a good Fluke meter would work for all the tests, and apparently that's not so.


 
What do you mean by a good fluke meter?


----------



## RiverRatt

The calibration test calls for a 20,000 ohm per volt VTVM. Apparently you need a resistor shunt if you are using a modern DMM.
I need a good Variac, too. I thought I might find one in that TV shop I raided. There was a B&K power supply there that might have worked.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> What do you mean by a good fluke meter?



A true RMS meter. It's a model 115.


----------



## MM54

I found the plans for a regulated tube high-voltage power supply in an old book, I plan on building it some time 

But I still need a Variac for everything else


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> I didn't have any kids the past two years and it looks the same for tonight. Great, that's three bags of bite size candy bars I'm gonna end up eating.




I have about 200 and I only had 9 kids come!


----------



## RiverRatt

We didn't buy any candy this year. All our kids are too old for it and our house is too spooky 

You looking for cobwebs and spiders? We have a healthy brown recluse population in here.






Just the dogs alone would scare the hell out of just about anything under the age of 19. They saved us a bunch in a burglary a few years ago.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> The calibration test calls for a 20,000 ohm per volt VTVM. Apparently you need a resistor shunt if you are using a modern DMM.
> I need a good Variac, too. I thought I might find one in that TV shop I raided. There was a B&K power supply there that might have worked.


 
Read that old manual again. The calibration calls for a VTVM for AC and a 20000ohms/volt DC meter.

Yes, modern meters will need shunts. Your DMM will read slightly higher than a 20k-ohm/volt meter.

Did you calibrate your own tester? Did you use a variac?


----------



## RiverRatt

No I don't have a Variac. Maybe one of these days.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stop posting that picture of the brown recluse.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ah, c'mon Marty. Everyone else gets to post pictures of their pets.


----------



## blackone

RiverRatt said:


> Ah, c'mon Marty. Everyone else gets to post pictures of their pets.



My Dad back in Australia used to pick up harmless spiders called huntsmans that look exactly like a brown recluse. When I moved to the states i nearly picked one up thinking it was the same thing. Sure would have found it it wasn't quick smart


----------



## lonewolfsx

geez I'm like crazy arachnophobic so I can't imagine picking up a spider, harmless or not. Ughhh


----------



## RiverRatt

Brown Recluse spiders are pretty passive unless you mash them (i.e. putting on a shirt with one in it). They are supposed to feel like a wasp sting, but with far worse results. Google brown recluse bites if you want to see some sick stuff.

I keep a spray bottle of isopropyl alcohol and a Bic lighter handy. I don't try to mash them - I napalm them from a safe distance.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tube-O-Rama+Tube-O-Rama+Tube-O-Rama


















**********WE HAVE A WINNER!!!**********









BLACKONE IS THE BIG WINNER! CONGRATULATIONS. HERE IS THE WINNING ENTRY.



blackone said:


> "Why I want to become a tube roller."
> 
> 
> I want to roll some tubes, and I want to roll them now,
> the problem is that when I play my tone just doesn't wow.
> Speakers? well I changed 'em, along with thicker wire,
> but still my vintage Marshall stack just doesn't bring the fire.
> You'd think that 20 years of playing rock and blues and thrash,
> would give me some decent insight on where to spend my cash.
> But idiots like me, you see, we spend it on some lass,
> not by saving up the bucks for a set of older glass.
> So here I am, all down and out, trying my best to win,
> Marty's tube-o-rama contest that it seems no one else is in.
> Who know's, maybe I'll get 'em, maybe it's a pipe dream,
> but man, I know with Martys tubes my amp will surely scream.



BLACKONE-Please send me a PM with your name and complete mailing address. You also need to contact JOE (SolarBurnDSL50) for a chance to win an extra tube. I will forward your address to JOE and ALAN as they will be sending you tubes as well. Again, congratulations. You just bagged yourself well over $240 worth of tubes. After you get a chance to roll some, please post your findings on the Preamp Tube thread.


----------



## thrawn86

Awesome. Enjoy the stash Blackone. You'll not be disappointed.


----------



## brp

Congrats Blackone!
Great contest, guys, congrats on that as well!
Extremely awesome of you guys to put this together for the Forum.
It was fun to watch and enter and hope to win, even though I didn't have much confidence due to some excellent competition but hey, you can't win if you don't play right.

Damn, I should have wrote a poem. 
I guess I have to order some tubes now....


----------



## RiverRatt

They really aren't that hard to find. You just need to educate yourself on factory codes, EIA codes, and typical construction techniques. You can find the old tubes quite often from eBay sellers who have no idea what they have.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blackone, send me a PM and let me know where to send the 5751.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm gone. I've got to work tomorrow. I'll have the 5751 at the office so I can send it out whenever.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I truly appreciate everyone's entries. I wish I could give everyone who entered a big stash of tubes. You guys rock.


----------



## sccloser

Been rolling some more tubes in the v1 of the dsl401 tonight. The 5 that came in the mail Saturday.

Of course, the Amperex-Holland was the best overall...Full and rich, largest frequency band of the 5, smooth and fairly articulate. 
But I will tell you the Raytheon Gray plate was not too shabby. It had a bit more edge to it than the Amperex, and was not as full but it had a pretty good tone to it. Darker sounds better in the 401 for the most part. 
The GE sounded pretty good as well. It was not as rich as the Amperex and was a tad brighter, but not bad. 
The RCA black plate was pretty rich sounding. I kinda liked it but it was kind of bright. Not good for the 401. But it sounded really good on the green channel with the Lp with Tim Shaws, neck pup. It definitely had some sparkle.
I had an unidentified US tube with long gray plates that I think is an RCA. It sounded pretty good as well. Not as bright as the black plate, and not quite as rich, but pretty good.

All other tubes in the amp were JJ's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-I'll get Blackone's address and forward it to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Amperex is hard to beat. It is a favorite V1 for many players. I run a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in V1 of my TSL602.


----------



## Marshall Mann

mickeydg5 said:


> Marshall Mann
> That is a 700 you just calibrated? Do me a favor and look at the schematic. Tell me what wall voltage is called out on the PT input.



Sorry Mickey, I missed your post. It sounds like you got to the bottom of it though. 

I was going off the manual (as far as I can tell, the 700 and 707 are the same other than the position of the sockets) and this (thanks to Alan for the link), it's a pretty handy article.

_



REPAIR AND CALIBRATION

All voltage tests below are made at 117V line voltage. Tester should be connected to a Variac set at 117 vac for all calibration procedures that require voltage readings.

Click to expand...

_
TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester


----------



## Marshall Mann

:Ohno::Ohno::Ohno::Ohno::Ohno:


MartyStrat54 said:


> Stop posting that picture of the brown recluse.


----------



## sccloser

Wow,

By the time I get this post up I see the contest is over. Congrats to Blackbone for the win. Remember the fine print that all songs become the property of forum members... oh, that wasn't in there? So much for royalties...

Blackbone, you'll have to post soon and let us know how those new tubes are sounding. It is fun to roll, listen, evaluate and report!

Congrats again! And big thanks to Marty, Riverratt and everyone who donated prizes.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Amperex is hard to beat. It is a favorite V1 for many players. I run a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in V1 of my TSL602.



It was my favorite until I got a mullard long plate...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those long plate Mullards are nice as long as they aren't microphonic.


----------



## sccloser

Still, though, I think the Amperex has a little more edge and that is good for me as I kinda take pride in my driving rhythm. 

When our band split, all that remained was me, the other guitar player and one of the singers. The other guys picked up one guitarist to fill our spots. They still have the kb player, so I kinda figured that is what they would do. I saw them play last week...10 songs to open for another band. They kinda went pop. They were good, but they sound completely different. New guitar player is more a finesse player. Now instead of being guitar driven, the guitar is just an accompaniment. Everyone I know that heard them said the same thing. They lost their punch. I guess WE WERE the punch. I played an SG or LP through a Marshall 800 or 900, and the other guitarist played an Explorer or a Strat through an 800. New guy uses a Fender HR deluxe. Not the same. 

I feel so vindicated!


----------



## sccloser

Did Mullard make a medium plate?


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Did Mullard make a medium plate?



13mm VS 17mm


----------



## sccloser

Marty, in a class5, what is the purpose of v2? Extra gain stage? 
Both triodes?

Right now running Ei in v1, Tungsgram in v2. Decided to try those because they are generally bright and I wanted to brighten my class5 up some (it is really bassy).


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> 13mm VS 17mm



Thanks.

I'll have to look closer to see. I have some RCA marked mullards that are the short ones. I have one mullard that is supposed to be a long plate but I did not compare it to the others. But it did not look short just looking at it.


----------



## MM54

sccloser said:


> Marty, in a class5, what is the purpose of v2? Extra gain stage?
> Both triodes?
> 
> Right now running Ei in v1, Tungsgram in v2. Decided to try those because they are generally bright and I wanted to brighten my class5 up some (it is really bassy).



I'm not Marty, but...

V2 in the class 5 is indeed set up so that both triodes are running as gain stages. The second one technically is driving the poweramp, but essentially that tube is there for amplifying (as opposed to buffering)


----------



## SmokeyDopey

congrats blackone!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me ask you a question. Does all of your long plate Mullards have the "mC" code on the tube?

Let me know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And wouldn't it be 15mm versus 17mm?


----------



## mickeydg5

Marshall Mann said:


> Sorry Mickey, I missed your post. It sounds like you got to the bottom of it though.
> 
> I was going off the manual (as far as I can tell, the 700 and 707 are the same other than the position of the sockets) and this (thanks to Alan for the link), it's a pretty handy article.
> 
> TubeSound » Blog Archive » B&K 700 & 707 tube tester


 

I have browsed that article before. 117 seems to be the number everyone uses. But I always like to make sure. That is why I check some secondary voltages. Some manuals and calibration instructions specify a voltage for calibration. That voltage coinsides with the voltages given on the secondary of the PT. Reading those voltages could also give insight on what to expect from the transformer as far as tolerances are concerned.

It seems you have to watch out for the meter movement on those B&K things too, as indicated in the article.


----------



## blackone

Hi guys,

I was just in the backstage sending my thanks and wanted post here also. I am completely speechless that I won the tubes, and I still am trying to find the right words for Marty, Joe, and Alan. It's amazing to me the kindness of nearly complete strangers, and to think that these guys even had the thought to give such amazing things away for the better of the forum is well, simply unbelievable. 

Thanks to everyone involved, and get ready for the best tone on the planet


----------



## sccloser

I took a look at the one that is supposed to be a long plate. Same as my others, so it is probably short plate. Still sounds good, though.

Code on it is a bit hard to read but looks like 163 B7A3.


----------



## sccloser

Hey Guys,

Can a 12ax7 test weak, but fairly balanced, on an Eico 667 and still be a decent tube? I got one that tests 56/60, and on my Accurate it tests about the same, but it has no shorts or leakage. Sounds pretty good. 

Tube is a Matsuhita with the slant getter. Guy I got it from will swap it, but he has no more Matsu's...only GE's and Raytheons (no, not black plates...haha).


----------



## sccloser

MM54 said:


> I'm not Marty, but...
> 
> V2 in the class 5 is indeed set up so that both triodes are running as gain stages. The second one technically is driving the poweramp, but essentially that tube is there for amplifying (as opposed to buffering)



Gracias, Senor!


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Look what came in the mail today:


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

Okay, so I just installed my RSD 12ax7 in V1 of the 1987x, the sylvania in V2, and the GE in V3 because it's balanced. I like it but it's kinda' bright. Haven't tried the philips yet.

Is there any combination/order you guys recommend?


----------



## GIBSON67

A simple question - if you boost your front end of your amp real hard, are you pushing that V1 tube also? Does that shorten the tubes life?


----------



## scat7s

sccloser said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Can a 12ax7 test weak, but fairly balanced, on an Eico 667 and still be a decent tube? I got one that tests 56/60, and on my Accurate it tests about the same, but it has no shorts or leakage. Sounds pretty good.
> 
> Tube is a Matsuhita with the slant getter. Guy I got it from will swap it, but he has no more Matsu's...only GE's and Raytheons (no, not black plates...haha).


 
if it sounds good, use it. i sometimes prefer weaker pre's, thats part of the fun of rolling. some are hot, some are cooler...use it if you like it.


----------



## scat7s

GIBSON67 said:


> A simple question - if you boost your front end of your amp real hard, are you pushing that V1 tube also? Does that shorten the tubes life?


 
yes and yes i believe. if im incorrect someone will fix me, but, even by shortening the tubes life? its still probably going to last a looong time. the pre's draw very little current, and so do not operate near their design maximums, hence, they last a long time, pushed or not. 

was that accurate mart?


----------



## sccloser

Hmm. I would guess that it would NOT shorten the life of the tube in v1 if you push it with a pedal. That is just boosting the signal to be amplified. I would not think that would hurt anything, but I am just guessing.


----------



## MM54

If you look at the plate curves for a 12AX7 with a load line at 100K and a B+ of around 250V (Marshall-ish), you're nowhere close to overdissipating your 1W max.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## MM54

Okay that's just weird, Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's a guy whose sells tubes. He does not tell you what you are getting. He has like six categories to choose from. His gain stage tubes (unknown brand) are $100 and his select tubes are even higher. Here is part of his disclaimer.

There are no brand names displayed on this website. I do not reveal the brands for a reason - I want you to buy your tubes from me! I offer a service that is truly unique. It evolved from decades of experience. If you want the benefit of all that expertise, then you will need to buy the tubes from me. Here you get to buy the tubes that sound the way you want, plus you get to model your own amp sound. A little trust here. I do not remove the names from the tubes, only from the website. If later you want to try to save some money and buy more of the same brand tube from someone else, you're welcome to. But you won't be getting the same quality or performance! I know this because I reject as much as 80% of the tubes I buy! If by chance you were to choose the exact tubes that are in your amp now, it will sound stronger have better tone and increased reliability using my tubes!

If he rejects 80 percent of the tubes he buys, I hope he get a refund. Otherwise, he would go broke.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got my tubes mailed out today by Priority Mail. Blackone should get the box by Saturday.


----------



## mickeydg5

I wonder who is blindly buying at those prices.


----------



## sccloser

I saw that the other day as well. He sells you cp tubes that he "sound tests." Prices are high, but I agree with Marty he'd go broke if he did not get refunds on the tubes he "rejects."

Did you notice he said that you need a balanced driver (p.i.) tube and charges a premium for that as well?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you got some spare time, go here:

http://www.worldtubecompany.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=TF-2

There is a lot of BS on this page. Especially in the "What Is the Difference Between..." section. Did you know a 7025 has more gain than a 12AX7? The difference between a 12AX7 and a 12AX7A is that the A is low noise. Yeah, this guy is a total tube douche.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's not going to hurt V1 pushing it with a boost. If it did, the boost manufacturers would all be out of business.

Most of you guys know that Wilder is getting a tube boost on the market. I have be using a similar product for about 18 months called a Rocktron Silver Dragon. It is a combo tube and SS distortion device. You can use each type distortion separately, or combine them. I put an old 1958 RCA in the Dragon. It made all the difference in the world. It had a Shuguang in it OE. I can get some hairy distortion from the Dragon and this slams into the V1 of my amp. This tube is just amplifying the distorted signal and this is all within the specs of the tube. 

The only problem I see is if the amps V1 is microphonic. You could get squealing or other noises.


----------



## sccloser

> MartyStrat54
> 
> If you got some spare time, go here:
> 
> http://www.worldtubecompany.com/mm5/...vc?Screen=TF-2
> 
> There is a lot of BS on this page. Especially in the "What Is the Difference Between..." section. Did you know a 7025 has more gain than a 12AX7? The difference between a 12AX7 and a 12AX7A is that the A is low noise. Yeah, this guy is a total tube douche.




Yes, RCA's are very, very rare...haha!

You know, it may be a more accurate statement to say that it is rare to get an actual rca made tube in an rca box...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I got my tubes mailed out today by Priority Mail. Blackone should get the box by Saturday.



He's gonna have so much glass he won't know where to start!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me ask you a question. Does all of your long plate Mullards have the "mC" code on the tube?
> 
> Let me know.



Yeah. Mine does. 

I may be wrong, but isn't it 17mm for long plates and 14mm for short plates?


----------



## paul-e-mann

Congratulations Blackone! Enjoy the tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah. Mine does.
> 
> I may be wrong, but isn't it 17mm for long plates and 14mm for short plates?



ALAN-I'm sure you have been to this page before. It specifies 15 and 17mm plate sizes.

Also, going by the info on this page, Mullard did not make a long plate. They were relabeled.

Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes

Am I looking at something wrong?


----------



## sccloser

I got a Delta code Heerlen Amperex that tests 100/106 for $8.20!!!


----------



## thrawn86

400 pages gents, well done.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think that page is all-inclusive. I was wrong about the type code on my long-plate Mullard, too. You can't see it well, but if you look at the "B" in Britain, you can see a 9 just before it and that's all I can make out. The print covers up most everything else. It has a B8G factory date code, so I'm pretty sure it is a Blackburn tube. It has two getter posts joined by a cross bar and a round getter attached to that. There's an I63 beside it for comparison.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let me ask you a question. Does all of your long plate Mullards have the "mC" code on the tube?
> 
> Let me know.



No. They do have a "B8G" though. And a couple have the "183" which I believe Alan told me was the "low noise" indicator. 






Why???


----------



## RiverRatt

I did that? I don't remember it. I'll bet they are some sweet sounding tubes, though.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> They really aren't that hard to find. You just need to educate yourself on factory codes, EIA codes, ....



That seems very daunting, actually. It seems like there's ALOT to know.
But I am working on it.
I've been keeping an eye on auctions, even bid on a couple that seemed like the right things.
I'm only interested in 12ax7 (and the like) right now.
I'm going to buy some things to get me started from Marty hopefully cuz I'm confident he won't steer me wrong. Then, I'll add to what I have as you suggest, keeping an eye for deals and adding to my knowledge of codes etc. with help and thanks from you guys. One thing that sucks for me is most auctions I'm interested in only ship to USA.
Thanks for the advice.
Hopefully my Power tubes arrive this week....


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I did that? I don't remember it. I'll bet they are some sweet sounding tubes, though.



I though so??? 

They are V1 and V2 in the 6100 right now and I love em!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I'm not seeing anything on any site that mentions 15mm plates. Everything I'm finding is 14mm shorts and 17mm long.

brp, going with Marty's tubes is a very smart move for your first NOS purchase. If you plan on buying tubes off eBay later, a decent tube tester is a must-have. I usually only buy from people I meet face-to-face now. I know what I'm getting and they know what they are selling (most of the time ). 

I traded a guy two pairs of Tung-Sol 5881's for that long-plate Mullard and four EL84's made in Sittard, Holland. I'm about to send a pair of those to Joe to try out in his EL84 amps. I was happy with the deal and so was the dude who got the 5881's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So Mullards are 14mm and Amperex and Valvo are 15mm. 

Where's my damn book on all of this?


----------



## MartyStrat54

From the Tube Classics page.

"Short plate Types (15mm)"

Did this guy do a typo?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I think so. His site is the only one that comes up in a Google search for 15mm plates.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> So Mullards are 14mm and Amperex and Valvo are 15mm.
> 
> Where's my damn book on all of this?



I'm telling you, if you want to make a database with all sort of this info, I'm up for it and we can use my server to host it


----------



## MartyStrat54

The info is scattered throughout the pages of this massive thread. It would be an immense amount of work trying to take all of the important info and indexing it so it would be easy to access.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> So Mullards are 14mm and Amperex and Valvo are 15mm.
> 
> Where's my damn book on all of this?



I thought you WERE the book Marty


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> The info is scattered throughout the pages of this massive thread. It would be an immense amount of work trying to take all of the important info and indexing it so it would be easy to access.




You can say that again. I can't even believe how massive this thread is.

On a related note, I found this page while surfing tube stuff. Maybe nothing new to any of you guys on here but there's lots of info and tons of links to tube related sites, some tables of info, codes etc. pics of vintage boxes, and FAQ section for noobs:
Charles MacDonald's Electronic Tube page

Maybe some of you have seen this page before....


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> The info is scattered throughout the pages of this massive thread. It would be an immense amount of work trying to take all of the important info and indexing it so it would be easy to access.



I don't think it would be too bad if we just slowly compiled up data, the database of articles on particular tubes could just evolve and be added to at whim. I'd be willing it set it up and run it and set it so you could edit the info therein, there could be a page on each type of tube you choose to feature.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> The info is scattered throughout the pages of this massive thread. It would be an immense amount of work trying to take all of the important info and indexing it so it would be easy to access.



If it were easy, would it even be worth doing? hmmm?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know. If you just went through and picked out descriptions and reviews of various tubes as different people tried them, that might work. I'd be curious to know how much variance there would be in opinion of the different tubes and their tone. Hell, I know my whole philosophy of what a good old tube is has changed so much I don't even know if I could stand to go back and have to read the old posts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Mann said:


> I thought you WERE the book Marty



I'm at the point where stuff I picked up three years ago is now a fuzzy blip in my mind. I am constantly pouring new info into my mind and I think it is now overloaded and deleting files.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm at the point where stuff I picked up three years ago is now a fuzzy blip in my mind. I am constantly pouring new info into my mind and I think it is now overloaded and deleting files.



I hear you.

I missed two exits on my way home from wok tonight. Not one, but two.

It's hell getting old.


----------



## sccloser

No response in the power tube thread, so I moved it over here...

Pic of the back of my dsl 401, JJ el844 power tubes, in the dark with no lights, no flash on cell phone cam. Do those look like they are red plating?




[/IMG]


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm at the point where stuff I picked up three years ago is now a fuzzy blip in my mind. I am constantly pouring new info into my mind and I think it is now overloaded and deleting files.



12k posts on the thread!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have yet to use the 844's but the glow looks very consistent on all four tubes. I would say it's the heater filaments. If it was red plating, it would be sort of an elliptical shape.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I truly appreciate everyone's entries. I wish I could give everyone who entered a big stash of tubes. You guys rock.


 
Congrats Blackone.....let us hear a soundclip when you get them....

You're the one the Rawks Marty...thx for being so generous......and Alan that 5751 going to be some Icing on the cake......
I finally got to LR and got the Siemans...not much to go on with markings, but it does have the $ logo, some engraving on the bottem between the pins, hard to tell tonite...but maybe a 6 and on top of it there are two number printed on...244 AND 246, I think that is printed later and are some test results .......double seamed top...it tested on my 1953 Precision Apparatus Tester at 80/80.....I'll plug and play tomorrow...As long as it works properly, I think it'll be worth the $9.58 I paid....


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have yet to use the 844's but the glow looks very consistent on all four tubes. I would say it's the heater filaments. If it was red plating, it would be sort of an elliptical shape.



It really isn't bright orange either...no brighter really than the 12ax7's. I just thought it looked odd to see those lines like that. They sound fine, and the amp has 20 hours or more use on them I am sure. And I had it cranked pretty hard outside on a day in the upper 90's at a jam last summer with no problems (well, none for the amp but I about monkeyed). 

I do not have a probe to check bias on those, but I always heard that the el84's are pushed extremely hard in these amps routinely, so I figured it was OK.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

I have a philips miniwatt, a sylvania, a balanced GE and an RSD. All 12ax7's. Is there any combination/order you guys recommend. I want to put them in my1987x.


----------



## sccloser

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> I have a philips miniwatt, a sylvania, a balanced GE and an RSD. All 12ax7's. Is there any combination/order you guys recommend. I want to put them in my1987x.



I'd probably try:

v1: Miniwatt

Then I would swap around the others to see which one sounded best in v2. Sometimes different tubes in v2 can brighten or darken your tone a bit. 

I would probably use the RSD for v2 (I think it is a Tungsgram, right?)

PI I would probably use the Sylvania.


----------



## sccloser

The miniwatt is most likely going to have the best tone for v1, but not necessarily. Best to roll them and try each tube in v1. Find the one that sounds the best. Then roll the others in v2. Once you have the best combo, the p.i. probably will not make a big difference, but if it does, choose the one remaining tube that sounds the best for that one.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

sccloser said:


> I'd probably try:
> 
> v1: Miniwatt
> 
> Then I would swap around the others to see which one sounded best in v2. Sometimes different tubes in v2 can brighten or darken your tone a bit.
> 
> I would probably use the RSD for v2 (I think it is a Tungsgram, right?)
> 
> PI I would probably use the Sylvania.



The RSD is an RFT actually. Made in Germany.


----------



## mickeydg5

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> I have a philips miniwatt, a sylvania, a balanced GE and an RSD. All 12ax7's. Is there any combination/order you guys recommend. I want to put them in my1987x.


 
Try the miniwatt in V! and report the difference when compared to the RSD.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> No response in the power tube thread, so I moved it over here...
> 
> Pic of the back of my dsl 401, JJ el844 power tubes, in the dark with no lights, no flash on cell phone cam. Do those look like they are red plating?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]


 
left a post on the power tube thread


----------



## Lowlife

Just won a Marconi tube, made in Madrid, it sounds pretty good, I am very surpriced, and it was cheap, something like 4 €. Ill shoot some photos soon, got another tube in the same batch i need assistance with the identification as well...seems the print has worn off


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lespaulnmarshall said:


> The RSD is an RFT actually. Made in Germany.



Remember, the RFT is a darker sounding tube. You can try it in V1 and see if you like it, but I think the MiniWatt will be your best tube for that slot.

The RFT in V2 won't appear as dark, so you might like it in V2. 

And I will say that I am in agreement with Myles Rose when he says that other than V1, the PI tube is very important. A good tube in this slot changes the dynamics of the amp.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall

mickeydg5 said:


> Try the miniwatt in V! and report the difference when compared to the RSD.



The RSD is a lot darker, wich is very nice Because my 1987x is extremely bright. I've tried the miniwatt in V1 with my RSD in V2 and my sylvania in V3. I'm going to swap the tubes in V1 and V2.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Remember, the RFT is a darker sounding tube. You can try it in V1 and see if you like it, but I think the MiniWatt will be your best tube for that slot.
> 
> The RFT in V2 won't appear as dark, so you might like it in V2.
> 
> And I will say that I am in agreement with Myles Rose when he says that other than V1, the PI tube is very important. A good tube in this slot changes the dynamics of the amp.



Myles used to be on The Gear Page, and may still be. I haven't been over there in ages. He had some good posts, especially after he left GT. IIRC he is a proponent of the balanced PI tube, though.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think th PI slot is important because it taylors the entire amp, much like the V1 slot, only different. But it is a preference. If you want clean striaght power gain with the least coloration than you will strive for matched PI, matched power tubes and a seriously matched OT. If you want the other end of the spectrum the opposite will be true.


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5 said:


> I think th PI slot is important because it taylors the entire amp, much like the V1 slot, only different. But it is a preference. If you want clean striaght power gain with the least coloration than you will strive for matched PI, matched power tubes and a seriously matched OT. If you want the other end of the spectrum the opposite will be true.



It would seem that in a guitar amplifier, we want the tubes to color the tone, which is why we tube roll to begin with. Straight power gain with the least coloration sounds more like what the hi-fi crowd is looking for.


----------



## sccloser

I'll have to roll some p.i.'s and see if I can hear a difference. I never noticed much difference before, but that was probably because when I stuck a NOS JAN Sylvania, Tung Sol or whatever in the p.i. slot I had also changed the other tubes, so any difference in tone I accredited to the other tubes.

I can notice a difference in the tone of my dsl 401 when I change v2's using the same v1's.


----------



## sccloser

Is there any good position to run an RCA black plate in a Marshall? Too bright in v1, same in v2 in my dsl 401. I think the little GE gray plate sounded better in both positions than the RCA blackplate. With the Amperex in v1 and the GE in V2, it is sounding pretty good.

It really shines on the green channel, with the gain up around 7 playing the Les Paul using the tim Shaw neck pup. Think Journey "Lights." That's what I have been playing for the tests.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> It would seem that in a guitar amplifier, we want the tubes to color the tone, which is why we tube roll to begin with. Straight power gain with the least coloration sounds more like what the hi-fi crowd is looking for.


 
I would not say exactly just for hi-fi.

Those guys running 6550's and KT88's all out for a little cleaner, in your face harder power might lean this way. You still get tube tone, just not as much of that unmatched thing going on.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Myles used to be on The Gear Page, and may still be. I haven't been over there in ages. He had some good posts, especially after he left GT. IIRC he is a proponent of the balanced PI tube, though.



He's over at the Z forum answering tube questions there. What a great asset to the forum over there. I've used his experience with my Z amp regarding different rectifier tubes.

Z-Talk! - Tubes


----------



## solarburn

I disagree with the PI needing a tube with matched triodes. I doubt it is even audible unless it is in a HIFI environment and I don't even know if it is there either. Would never pay extra for a balanced tube hitting the power section of any of my guitar amps. However I do buy into hearing audible differences in the PI slot from different 12AX7's. An RFT in my EL84 amps PI still restrains the topend as it will in V1. I'm not saying it does it as much as the tone slot(V1)but to my ears it was noticeable. Also known tube characteristics may impact different amp circuits to one degree or another. That's why I always like to actually pop them in and see what happens. 

Speculation no matter how much we know tube characteristics may keep us from finding a good combination in our amps. Roll em' in your amp circuit. Even if it seems you're going against the grain. The result is getting to know your particular amp circuit and how it sounds/reacts. Hell even the same kind of 12AX7's can sound a bit different. 

Volume has a big impact on this too. Low volume playing may give you one idea about your tube array and then go to a higher volume integrating more of the power tubes and suddenly the tone has changed and it might be for the worse...or better. Course we are basing our tube advice on actually using them in our amps. I try to keep in mind that my results were in a particular amp and it may not translate as favorable or be less favorable in a different amp's circuit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think our tube thread is bigger than the whole Z forum.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let's not forget the harmonica link I posted where the guy performed a blind sound test using a balanced 12AX7 and a 12DW7 in the PI. None of the musician's could tell which was which. The amp would start feedbacking at the same volume level regardless of which PI tube was installed.

While this proves that a balanced PI tube is not necessary (so much in a MV amp), it also puts a damper on using an unbalanced tube. However, I am sticking with electronic theory and that is, in a guitar, you want the signal to be lopsided as this aids in the creation of more even order harmonics.

Blues Harp Amps: Testing the 12DW7 Phase Inverter Tube

Also, if you read some of the follow-up comments, a PI is more critical in a 1987 or 1959 NMV amp due to the circuit and how the phase inverter is fed.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I think our tube thread is bigger than the whole Z forum.




Yeah hah dadio!


----------



## mickeydg5

I'll go with what Marty just said. It all depends on your equipment and preference.


----------



## sccloser

mickeydg5,

I case I did not tell you before (and I didn't) welcome! Good to have you posting in the tube threads!


----------



## RiverRatt

What got me into the PI tube was that I thought I had it figured out with a 12AT7 back when we first started this thread. It did make a big difference in the tone and feel of the amp. I finally realized that this was like the proverbial "throwing a blanket over the cab" sound. It was rolling off the highs and made the amp sound "cranked" at a lower volume, but at the cost of losing the highs and dynamic response. 

You can go too far the other way though. I have a JRP Raytheon that is hotter than hot. It doesn't sound so good as a PI either. Right now I'm running one of those old Sonotone side-getters in the PI of the Vintage Modern and it sounds nice. I haven't done a lot of rolling with that amp yet, but in general I'm getting about the same results as I did with the DSL with a few exceptions. I never liked Amperex tubes in the DSL, but they sound great in the VM.


----------



## johnfv

I know I am in the minority here but a good 12AT7 PI has done very nice things to my 1959T. YMMV...


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> mickeydg5,
> 
> I case I did not tell you before (and I didn't) welcome! Good to have you posting in the tube threads!


 
Thanks. I am learning too.

And if I step on anyone's toes it is not on purpose. I try to be clear when I write but I guess sometimes my wording may not be too articulate. RiverRatt, you know what I am talking about.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just don't think of a 12AT7 as a very musical tube. Have you ever tried a 5751 instead? They are closer to a 12AX7 in specs than a 12AT7 and the tone is much better.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Thanks. I am learning too.
> 
> And if I step on anyone's toes it is not on purpose. I try to be clear when I write but I guess sometimes my wording may not be too articulate. RiverRatt, you know what I am talking about.



Don't worry about it. I would appreciate it if you'd go back a page and look at my long-plate Mullard and give me your impressions on it. It has a clear Blackburn 1958 code but the only thing I can make out in the type code is a number 9. This is the only long-plate Mullard I've ever seen and I was hoping the conversation would stay on them for awhile. As usual, I post a picture and everybody quits talking.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Don't worry about it. I would appreciate it if you'd go back a page and look at my long-plate Mullard and give me your impressions on it. It has a clear Blackburn 1958 code but the only thing I can make out in the type code is a number 9. This is the only long-plate Mullard I've ever seen and I was hoping the conversation would stay on them for awhile. As usual, I post a picture and everybody quits talking.



We're all usually gawking at the glass you have laying around


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can tell you this. With each passing day, they are getting harder to find. 

BTW-All of those DARIO's I bought are long plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> We're all usually gawking at the glass you have laying around



Yeah, what did he saw a few pages back? That he had 10,600 tubes? Holy crap, Assman.


----------



## NewReligion

Marty, I pulled a GE 12AX7 from a Marshall I picked a couple of weeks ago. Are these still in production? If not what was the last year? 

It is powerful and full sounding compared to the EH & GT 12AX7's I have around.

Thanks, David.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Don't worry about it. I would appreciate it if you'd go back a page and look at my long-plate Mullard and give me your impressions on it. It has a clear Blackburn 1958 code but the only thing I can make out in the type code is a number 9. This is the only long-plate Mullard I've ever seen and I was hoping the conversation would stay on them for awhile. As usual, I post a picture and everybody quits talking.



That happens to you, too?


----------



## sccloser

NewReligion said:


> Marty, I pulled a GE 12AX7 from a Marshall I picked a couple of weeks ago. Are these still in production? If not what was the last year?
> 
> It is powerful and full sounding compared to the EH & GT 12AX7's I have around.
> 
> Thanks, David.



GE's are now vintage. They are decent tubes from what I have seen and you can still buy them reasonable...$10 to $20 each for good ones. Like Marty generally says, any good US made NOS tube is better than the CP stuff. I guess your ears already told you that?


----------



## NewReligion

sccloser said:


> GE's are now vintage. They are decent tubes from what I have seen and you can still buy them reasonable...$10 to $20 each for good ones. Like Marty generally says, any good US made NOS tube is better than the CP stuff. I guess your ears already told you that?



Thank you very much for the information as this is a trusted site. Kind of, lol.  I know you guys offer credible info, thanks. 

New Religion


----------



## mickeydg5

NewReligion said:


> Marty, I pulled a GE 12AX7 from a Marshall I picked a couple of weeks ago. Are these still in production? If not what was the last year?
> 
> It is powerful and full sounding compared to the EH & GT 12AX7's I have around.
> 
> Thanks, David.


 
I will add some to that. I had a look at the Z-Talk Myles pages and read somewhere about a guy testing an old stock tube. He mentioned that it read about 80 on average with his tester. He thought it might be low as compared to current production. So he started testing some Ei's or GT's or something and noticed they were reading at 55 to 65. That is new tubes. Maybe all are not like that but I hear the same story too often.

Like some companies claim their tubes offer more compression and distortion or what not. I think that those tubes actually just read lower, have less transconductance and probably lower quality. The associated descriptions given may just be for marketing. I have not tested and rolled any tubes to verify this, but that is my take on it. Have any of you?

David, a good answer would be that you have to test it with either a tester or your ear, whether it is new production or old stock.


----------



## brp

I've heard some of your opinions on CP chinese tubes, but what about the vintage chinese, 6Z19 EY81? I imagine some of you have tried them. Are they equivalent to 12ax7/ecc83
and do they sound any good?


----------



## NewReligion

mickeydg5 said:


> I will add some to that. I had a look at the Z-Talk Myles pages and read somewhere about a guy testing an old stock tube. He mentioned that it read about 80 on average with his tester. He thought it might be low as compared to current production. So he started testing some Ei's or GT's or something and noticed they were reading at 55 to 65. That is new tubes. Maybe all are not like that but I hear the same story too often.
> 
> Like some companies claim their tubes offer more compression and distortion or what not. I think that those tubes actually just read lower, have less transconductance and probably lower quality. The associated descriptions given may just be for marketing. I have not tested and rolled any tubes to verify this, but that is my take on it. Have any of you?
> 
> David, a good answer would be that you have to test it with either a tester or your ear, whether it is new production or old stock.



Good advice, thank you.

David


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I don't think that page is all-inclusive. I was wrong about the type code on my long-plate Mullard, too. You can't see it well, but if you look at the "B" in Britain, you can see a 9 just before it and that's all I can make out. The print covers up most everything else. It has a B8G factory date code, so I'm pretty sure it is a Blackburn tube. It has two getter posts joined by a cross bar and a round getter attached to that. There's an I63 beside it for comparison.


 
I only have a few Mullards and are short plate.
Check out the long plate mullard to the left from Virtual Valve Museum linked from TDSL site.
ECC83 / 12AX7 / CV492


----------



## sccloser

I have some Sovteks and Shugs that check pretty well on my Eico. Like over 100 on each triode. But that doesn't mean they sound good. I have found the Chinese shugs to sound much better than the Sovteks. I have a cp Tungsol...I had 2 but one crapped out on me...and they both sounded good and checked strong...until the bad one shorted out on me.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I only have a few Mullards and are short plate.
> Check out the long plate mullard to the left from Virtual Valve Museum linked from TDSL site.
> ECC83 / 12AX7 / CV492



Yep, that's one. I think every one I have seen has had a 1958 date code. I must be lucky to have one. Who said they were more rare than an ECC803? It had a strange logo on it, too. You can still see part of it. It looked more like the autobot symbol in a circle. It didn't have the big shield logo.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Yep, that's one. I think every one I have seen has had a 1958 date code. I must be lucky to have one. Who said they were more rare than an ECC803? It had a strange logo on it, too. You can still see part of it. It looked more like the autobot symbol in a circle. It didn't have the big shield logo.



Maybe it's a robot in disguise?

(This is a tube thread so I shouldn't bring up transformers... bad pun intended)


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been a Transformers fan since I was in college back in the 80s. I remember several stoned afternoons sitting around and watching Transformers.


----------



## mickeydg5

f9 indicates an ECC83 low microphony
mC indicates an ECC83 regular
the emblem or logo looks like a smudged Mullard symbol, the boomerang over the M inside of a circle.
B8G = Blackburn 1958 July

Check it out, long plates. You can find lots on EBAY

1 NOS New In Box 1958 Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 tube - 17mmLong Plates, Top [ ] Getter | eBay

Pair Vintage Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 Tubes Square Getter Long Plate MC1 BC7 1957 | eBay

I would say your long plate is a great find if it test well. Look at them prices!


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a bigger segment of that song I was working on. I might actually finish this one. This is the Tweaker again, Brit on the left and USA on the right. Everything dry except for that shimmery effect from Garage Band on the high part. This is the Tweaker with one of those Matsushita long plates in V1. I'm getting some great tones with those Legends and that cheap-ass 2x12, too. If you count what I paid for the Ampeg, I've got exactly $175 in the cabinet, speakers and Tweaker head. BTW, thanks for those speakers, Cody! They sound really good.

Tweaker2.mp3

My daughter left her bass over at a friend's house. I guess I'm going to have to break down and buy one sooner or later.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> My daughter left her bass over at a friend's house. I guess I'm going to have to break down and buy one sooner or later.




How's she liking the Alesis Micron? Using it at all?

I need to get a bass too. I keep putting it off for other things.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> How's she liking the Alesis Micron? Using it at all?
> 
> I need to get a bass too. I keep putting it off for other things.



Hell no. She said she played it once when I wasn't at home. That thing is going to be mine. I'm not going to let it sit in her room and get buried under teenager junk.

I saw an old Electra bass somewhere recently and wish I'd bought it. It was one of the good MIJ ones from the 1970s. Black with a maple neck and all brass hardware. It really felt solid and I don't think the dude was asking an unreasonable price for it. I went back to check it out again and it was gone.


----------



## mickeydg5

Wow, that tweaker sounds nice. I have always heard good things about Legends. Which model are those?


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> f9 indicates an ECC83 low microphony
> mC indicates an ECC83 regular
> the emblem or logo looks like a smudged Mullard symbol, the boomerang over the M inside of a circle.
> B8G = Blackburn 1958 July
> 
> Check it out, long plates. You can find lots on EBAY
> 
> 1 NOS New In Box 1958 Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 tube - 17mmLong Plates, Top [ ] Getter | eBay
> 
> Pair Vintage Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 Tubes Square Getter Long Plate MC1 BC7 1957 | eBay
> 
> I would say your long plate is a great find if it test well. Look at them prices!



I can't get the pair link to work, but that first one looks like mine, except it has a D getter and the getter flash isn't nearly as strong as it is in the one I have. Those prices are crazy. I knew the factory date code but I didn't know about the r9 type code. I can't even see the r.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Wow, that tweaker sounds nice. I have always heard good things about Legends. Which model are those?



BluesRocker (Cody) said they came out of a Randall 4x12 cab. 16 ohms, too. They only have 8 ohm versions on their website. Whatever they are, I like it.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I can't get the pair link to work, but that first one looks like mine, except it has a D getter and the getter flash isn't nearly as strong as it is in the one I have. Those prices are crazy. I knew the factory date code but I didn't know about the r9 type code. I can't even see the r.


 
That is f, in f9. Yeah labels on labels.
Just seach for mullard 1958 and 1957. It will pull stuff up.
The links do not seem to be working.


----------



## RiverRatt

The biggest secret to getting a great tone out of the Tweaker is Russian 6P3S power tubes from the 1970s - 1980s. They are incredible in that amp.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a bigger segment of that song I was working on. I might actually finish this one. This is the Tweaker again, Brit on the left and USA on the right. Everything dry except for that shimmery effect from Garage Band on the high part. This is the Tweaker with one of those Matsushita long plates in V1. I'm getting some great tones with those Legends and that cheap-ass 2x12, too. If you count what I paid for the Ampeg, I've got exactly $175 in the cabinet, speakers and Tweaker head. BTW, thanks for those speakers, Cody! They sound really good.
> 
> Tweaker2.mp3
> 
> My daughter left her bass over at a friend's house. I guess I'm going to have to break down and buy one sooner or later.



Sounds real cool man.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> BluesRocker (Cody) said they came out of a Randall 4x12 cab. 16 ohms, too. They only have 8 ohm versions on their website. Whatever they are, I like it.


 
Who is the Eminence specialist on this forum? I know someone is always talking up Eminence.

Just a note. Anyone liking Eminence note that their website shows regular production run impedances. They do offer and make other impedances for their speakers. You have to consult and find what you are looking for.

I think the GB128 sound nice.


----------



## solarburn

mickeydg5 said:


> Who is the Eminence specialist on this forum? I know someone is always talking up Eminence.
> 
> Just a note. Anyone liking Eminence note that their website shows regular production run impedances. They do offer and make other impedances for their speakers. You have to consult and find what you are looking for.
> 
> I think the GB128 sound nice.



Me too!


----------



## 61rocker

mickeydg5 said:


> I will add some to that. I had a look at the Z-Talk Myles pages and read somewhere about a guy testing an old stock tube. He mentioned that it read about 80 on average with his tester. He thought it might be low as compared to current production. So he started testing some Ei's or GT's or something and noticed they were reading at 55 to 65. That is new tubes. Maybe all are not like that but I hear the same story too often.
> 
> Like some companies claim their tubes offer more compression and distortion or what not. I think that those tubes actually just read lower, have less transconductance and probably lower quality. The associated descriptions given may just be for marketing. I have not tested and rolled any tubes to verify this, but that is my take on it. Have any of you?
> 
> David, a good answer would be that you have to test it with either a tester or your ear, whether it is new production or old stock.


 I have found that the vintage tubes I have been buying range from 80/80 to 88/88 with a few mismatches I like to put in the PI per Marty....these "used" vintage tubes test higher than any CP tube I have tested except one JJ tested at 86/86 and a Mullard RI a friend has tested at 91/91....I have a Precision Apparatus Tester from 1953...I know it's not the final word but it matches a tech friend of mine's console tester with 1-3%....at least what he has written on my tubes he as checked....I was surprised at the RI Mullard checking in so strong...maybe my friend got a good set....they are a little harsh sounding to me, he has all 3 Mullard preamp tubes in his Marshall 100watt combo....


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> Is there any good position to run an RCA black plate in a Marshall? Too bright in v1, same in v2 in my dsl 401. I think the little GE gray plate sounded better in both positions than the RCA blackplate. With the Amperex in v1 and the GE in V2, it is sounding pretty good.
> 
> It really shines on the green channel, with the gain up around 7 playing the Les Paul using the tim Shaw neck pup. Think Journey "Lights." That's what I have been playing for the tests.


 I think that each amp has it's own characteristics on tone, maybe even the same models....I have tried a lot of diffent tubes, but haven't tried GEs, Tungsols, and a few others....In my JCM800 2210, I run two RCA Blackplates...one in V2, and one slightly unbalanced in the PI....the V2 keeps my Mazda short plate gold pin from being too bright, but still rings like a big dog...think the second verse on "Feels Like The First Time" where Mick Jones hits and holds the open G chord...nice full bright but 3 Dimensional....I have a Mullard in V3....a Sylvania in the Reverb or V4 slot. I have rolled a bunch of tubes in there, and for now this is kickin' azz....my '71 SuperLead right now I have a Mullard flasher in V1, an RCA greyplate from '62, and a Sylvania slightly unbalanced in V3....kix ass too....Marty suggested to me running the Sylvania in the PI....Also, I have noticed a change in tone by rolling the PI slot....I put an old RCA 7025 in there one day...and it sounded great...I may try that one more time....(the 2210)


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Who is the Eminence specialist on this forum? I know someone is always talking up Eminence.
> 
> Just a note. Anyone liking Eminence note that their website shows regular production run impedances. They do offer and make other impedances for their speakers. You have to consult and find what you are looking for.
> 
> I think the GB128 sound nice.



Marty is the speaker man. I'll look under the hood this evening and see if I can find any numbers on the Legends, but I think they were a special run for that Randall cab.


----------



## sccloser

No one calls me "The Speaker Man." I like the 12-75's. I also run some GB's that I like as well, but I only like the GB's with particular amps and I can run the 75's with all of my amps and be happy. I am just sooo 80's.


----------



## mickeydg5

61rocker said:


> these "used" vintage tubes test higher than any CP tube I have tested except one JJ tested at 86/86 and a Mullard RI a friend has tested at 91/91....


 
That is what I am talking about. It is hit or miss with higher output CP tubes. More misses I presume.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> No one calls me "The Speaker Man." I like the 12-75's. I also run some GB's that I like as well, but I only like the GB's with particular amps and I can run the 75's with all of my amps and be happy. I am just sooo 80's.



Marty installs speakers and designs enclosures. Get him to tell you about JBL sometime.


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> No one calls me "The Speaker Man." I like the 12-75's. I also run some GB's that I like as well, but I only like the GB's with particular amps and I can run the 75's with all of my amps and be happy. I am just sooo 80's.


 
Yes the G12-75's smooth the mid a little and tame the highs more but with good overall output. I like those too.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Marty installs speakers and designs enclosures. Get him to tell you about JBL sometime.


 
I like JBL. They are just so heavy.

Is ok to keep discussing speakers on the preamp tube thread?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty installs speakers and designs enclosures. Get him to tell you about JBL sometime.



I pretty much worship vintage JBL speakers


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> No one calls me "The Speaker Man." I like the 12-75's. I also run some GB's that I like as well, but I only like the GB's with particular amps and I can run the 75's with all of my amps and be happy. I am just sooo 80's.


 
Hey SC.....You're the Speaker Man.....


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes the G12-75's smooth the mid a little and tame the highs more but with good overall output. I like those too.



I think my ideal setup would be a full Vintage Modern stack with a 425A and a 1960B cab. I may try that one of these days if a 1960B comes up on Craigslist. I thought the G12T-75's were good with the Vintage Modern but a lot of people don't like them with that amp.


----------



## 61rocker

mickeydg5 said:


> I like JBL. They are just so heavy.
> 
> Is ok to keep discussing speakers on the preamp tube thread?


 
We're all old here...we digress and sidetrack all the time.........I haven't welcomed you yet Mickey...I'm a Novice on technical knowledge, so another person here is great!! Welcome to MF.....Thx to the knowledge and posts here...I have upgraded my tone 10,000%......

Speaking of upgrading my sound...I ditched the Mazda for my new V1 tube....whadaya think rawkers?


----------



## solarburn

The bigger the better toanz!!!


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> I think my ideal setup would be a full Vintage Modern stack with a 425A and a 1960B cab. I may try that one of these days if a 1960B comes up on Craigslist. I thought the G12T-75's were good with the Vintage Modern but a lot of people don't like them with that amp.[/QUOTE
> 
> The other guitarist in my band has a 100watt Vintage Modern...he runs it with a 90s era 1960B cab...it sounds great....I think the Bs are a little less high end that the As?.... JBLs mentions up there.....this guy also has a Vintage mid-late 70s 1960A with GBs, but 2 blew and he put 2 JBLs in there with it...seems an odd combo but this cab sounds killer.....it runs at 10ohms, so his tech told him to run the amp at 8ohms...after 15 years there's been no prob....


----------



## 61rocker

mickeydg5 said:


> That is what I am talking about. It is hit or miss with higher output CP tubes. More misses I presume.


Again, I'm a novice, but my opinion is that newer preamp tubes just don't have the quality control...having said that....my bud put EH6550s and 3 EH 12ax7s in his '78 Marshall 2203 and he must have got a good set, cuz they sound very good....but the set of EH el34s and 12ax7s he got for his 4103 Combo were lemons, after one of the power tubes failed and took a socket out, (after about 6 weeks) he pulled them all and put in RI Mullards.....they are very powerful, but I'd pull the pres and put some vintage glass in there....strong but very harsh to the ears...it was one of those RI Mullards that I tested at 91/91...


----------



## johnfv

MM54 said:


> I pretty much worship vintage JBL speakers


I still have the K120 and Fender Showman that I bought when I was 15. Still a freaking awesome combination...


----------



## MM54

I mean for HiFi, I have a set of L112's and my dad's got a set of L150's, amongst other things.


----------



## MartyStrat54

FYI-The JBL D and K series were alnico magnets and much lighter than the E series that used a huge, 16 pound ceramic magnet making the total weight of an E-120 around 22 pounds.

My favorite all around JBL is the D-123. This is by far the best "do everything well" speaker. Its only drawback is power handling. They are being pushed with 40 watts. I have a near perfect pair in my TSL60. This amp has Mullard xf2's and all NOS preamp tubes. It is probably the nicest combo I have ever played.


----------



## MartyStrat54

EMINENCE Speakers-Randall used a lot of the now discontinued "modeling speakers." There is some comment about this buried somewhere in the speaker thread. (I wish you could search per individual thread. That would be nice.)

As far as getting "custom wound" speakers? Yes you can, but there is a minimum order of 50 speakers. So if I wanted to get a 16 ohm Black Powder, I would have to order 50 of them.

I was all set up to become a master Eminence vendor, but the cabinet I tried to patent didn't get any outside interest and I had to dump my plans.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Michael1987xl is the member that was looking for the Eminence Modeling 12 speaker. I looked on the Speaker Thread, but couldn't find the post where he commented on finding these speakers. Guess what? They had be relabeled. Yep. Another company put a big sticker on the back of the magnet covering the Eminence name and model number.

On a side note, Anthony Lucas (of Eminence) stated that he felt that the Tonkerlite was better than the Modeling 12, with better lows and only weighs 4.5 pounds. (Magnet is a four ounce, neodymium magnet.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see that the reliability of JJ tubes is being discussed on boards. I read on that Z forum where Myles Rose had stated he had quit using JJ's because of reliability issues.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you gonna open up your radio station?


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> I still have the K120 and Fender Showman that I bought when I was 15. Still a freaking awesome combination...



Back in the mid to late 80's, I was a service manager for a pro audio company. I saw a lot of old Fender gear with the orange JBL speakers. One guy brought in a 412 cab loaded with D120F's and he wanted to exchange them for something lighter. I put four Jensen's in it and I got some serious $$$ for the JBL's.

Back then, I was heavy into vintage FANE speakers. When I was gigging regularly, I used two custom 212 cabs with FANE cast frame speakers.

What was cool was the orange, D-140 bass speakers. Those were really sweet.


----------



## mickeydg5

61rocker said:


> We're all old here...we digress and sidetrack all the time.........I haven't welcomed you yet Mickey...I'm a Novice on technical knowledge, so another person here is great!! Welcome to MF.....Thx to the knowledge and posts here...I have upgraded my tone 10,000%......
> 
> Speaking of upgrading my sound...I ditched the Mazda for my new V1 tube....whadaya think rawkers?


 
You got rid of a 626 for that thing. I know that doesn't fit in a Marshall.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> As far as getting "custom wound" speakers? Yes you can, but there is a minimum order of 50 speakers. So if I wanted to get a 16 ohm Black Powder, I would have to order 50 of them.


 
I was thinking that Eminence could steer you to any company that may have ordered speakers of different impedance in a particular model. Track some down to see if there is any unsold stock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would love to snag some 16 ohm Black Powders and Tonespotters.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> When you gonna open up your radio station?


 I knew you'd be the one that knew what this was...my tech's shop has a few of these sitting around for fun....I am modifying my V1 socket so it'll fit....


----------



## RiverRatt

Those Legends in my cab don't have any info on them anywhere. Just the Legend and Eminence logos and the fine print around the edge of the label. They look very similar to the 1258, except they are 16 ohms.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you know how many "special runs" and "OE" units were produced by Eminence? It's scary. They've been making speakers for years. I saw an old post of mine on the Speaker Thread. I stated I had bought a Randall RG90A 212 Combo amp and it had two, Eminence speakers in it. I sold them on EBAY for more money than a pair of used Celestions.

I have a Peavey Deuce amp that is so old it has huge Eminence speakers in it instead of the Scorpions.


----------



## MM54

I have an Eminence bass speaker from the mid 60's sitting in an unused scooped bass 1x12 back in my shop. It's got a square magnet!


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I have an Eminence bass speaker from the mid 60's sitting in an unused scooped bass 1x12 back in my shop. It's got a square magnet!



That sounds like a CTS. Is the frame a strange dark reddish brown color? It'll also have "137" printed on it. They may be Eminence speakers, but CTS is kinda well known for the square magnet thing.


----------



## brp

I have a couple Eminence 12" in an isobaric sub I built and they absolutely kill.
They're a subwoofer speaker though, flat to 30hz in the box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's some serious low end. I use a 200 watt SS sub amp going to a dual voice coil sub speaker (Tang Band). Everything above 100Hz goes through a 20 watt per channel EL84 tube amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Eminence will have a "67" printed somewhere on the speaker.


----------



## Sebat

Well I ended up ordering some new tubes as money is just too tight with the holidays coming up and the inevitable lay off happening... 

anyway, I bought a variety of NP tubes, a Tung Sol, a couple JJ's, and an electro harmonix... for my JCM 900 SlX this week....

After I get these in, I am going to want to try some older tubes in and will probably buy them one or two at a time as I can afford them. 

I am working on a stoner/sludge/doom metal project right now. I dont have any idea where to start for the sound I want.. Heck I am not even sure what sound I want yet... but I know this, I want to use my Marshall and I think I can get the sounds I need out of it...


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's some serious low end. I use a 200 watt SS sub amp going to a dual voice coil sub speaker (Tang Band). Everything above 100Hz goes through a 20 watt per channel EL84 tube amp.



Nice.

Yep, my sub is huge though to get that low, almost the size of a 4x12 cab, and the isobaric loading voices like a cab twice that size.
Can't really use it where I live now, at least not very loud.


----------



## sccloser

Sebat said:


> Well I ended up ordering some new tubes as money is just too tight with the holidays coming up and the inevitable lay off happening...
> 
> anyway, I bought a variety of NP tubes, a Tung Sol, a couple JJ's, and an electro harmonix... for my JCM 900 SlX this week....
> 
> After I get these in, I am going to want to try some older tubes in and will probably buy them one or two at a time as I can afford them.
> 
> I am working on a stoner/sludge/doom metal project right now. I dont have any idea where to start for the sound I want.. Heck I am not even sure what sound I want yet... but I know this, I want to use my Marshall and I think I can get the sounds I need out of it...


Man, you could buy NOS GE 12ax7's for less than those CP tubes. That's why I quit with the CP stuff. Of course you do have to look for them some but they are out there.


----------



## Sebat

sccloser said:


> Man, you could buy NOS GE 12ax7's for less than those CP tubes. That's why I quit with the CP stuff. Of course you do have to look for them some but they are out there.


 
I am sure your right, the problem I have is that I know nothing about that yet. After reading through this thread a bit I saw how people would buy some stuff and end up getting something not quite right... So I am setting out to learn, I NEEDED to get my amp retubed now ASAP as I am going to start working on tracking some songs here in the next couple months... So I figured it would be better to get new tubes now and then start dipping my feet in the NOS water.. I also have no idea what certain things mean and where to look, and how to test.. 

consider me the Marshall Forum Idiot for the time being, and speak slowly.. I will eventually pick it up...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Back in Phoenix, we got the contract to put a new disco system in a RAVE dance club. The sub cabinet was 20 cubic feet and housed two, 18-inch RCF subwoofers. What is wild is that this massive cab was electronically crossed over at 80Hz. It would go down to 22Hz. It was built out of one-inch Medite and a lot of split 2 by 4's. Major bracing was a must for this monster. We had to haul it down to the club on the back of a flat bed pickup truck. It took eight guys to load and unload this cab. Yes, it was designed for permanent installation. Complementing the sub were eight, RCF/EAW 12-inch, two-way satellites. We did several sound checks and at one time (with ear protection) we hit over 130dB SPL. We did a test with a tone generator and put a 35Hz signal through the subs and it knocked shit off the kitchen shelves in the club. Moving shit, now that's power.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let's not call ourselves an idiot. Let's just say you are new to tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sebat said:


> I am sure your right, the problem I have is that I know nothing about that yet. After reading through this thread a bit I saw how people would buy some stuff and end up getting something not quite right... So I am setting out to learn, I NEEDED to get my amp retubed now ASAP as I am going to start working on tracking some songs here in the next couple months... So I figured it would be better to get new tubes now and then start dipping my feet in the NOS water.. I also have no idea what certain things mean and where to look, and how to test..
> 
> consider me the Marshall Forum Idiot for the time being, and speak slowly.. I will eventually pick it up...



I think all of us started with GE's and RCA's because they are plentiful and relatively cheap. I have bought some great tubes on eBay and I have gotten some duds. My best finds have come from old HAM radio guys and antique/junk stores. I still find stuff I didn't know I had. I was going through my main tube caddy and found an Amperex 12AX7 that I didn't remember having. 

I've ran both long plate and short plate GE tubes in a Marshall and they are IMO the best sounding USA tubes for that application. The Raytheon black plates make a great V2 tube but I don't like them so much in V1. Other than that, it's all of the different brands of Philips tubes plus some Telefunkens and Tungsrams. I have a Tungsram that's a great darker tube for a Marshall. RFT's can be nice as well. I like a dark tone with strong low mids.


----------



## Sebat

MartyStrat54 said:


> Let's not call ourselves an idiot. Let's just say you are new to tubes.


 ha ha... yeah thats probably the right thing... 

I always dig that self deprecating humor.. probably shouldnt be like that now that I am a grown man..


----------



## MM54

I seem to remember seeing the 67 on the speaker, thus how I was able to determine it to be Eminence


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool. I've never seen any with a square magnet. I do have a CTS (blown) that have a square magnet. I'd give these to someone if they have a use for them. They all read open on my DMM, that's all I can say about them other than no sound comes out. I've got 3 CTS, two with big round magnets and one with a square. Baskets and magnets are in excellent condition. Pay the shipping and they are yours.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Back in Phoenix, we got the contract to put a new disco system in a RAVE dance club. The sub cabinet was 20 cubic feet and housed two, 18-inch RCF subwoofers. What is wild is that this massive cab was electronically crossed over at 80Hz. It would go down to 22Hz. It was built out of one-inch Medite and a lot of split 2 by 4's.



'n 130db!!!

That's awesome. I've worked with some big rigs but that's a monster for sure.

Mine's on an active xover at 90hz w/ 70 watts per channel. I can't crank it above 3 nowadays unless I know the neighbours are away, but the next time their kids are running up and down the stairs at midnight on a weekday, I might give them a hint of it with a lowpass sine wave from an analog synth. It's ridonkulously groundshaking in a residential setting.


----------



## mickeydg5

The founder of Eminence came from Magnovox and CTS. I would say he purchased materials from the some companies. Eminence was probaly using the same magnets as CTS.


----------



## sccloser

Sebat said:


> I am sure your right, the problem I have is that I know nothing about that yet. After reading through this thread a bit I saw how people would buy some stuff and end up getting something not quite right... So I am setting out to learn, I NEEDED to get my amp retubed now ASAP as I am going to start working on tracking some songs here in the next couple months... So I figured it would be better to get new tubes now and then start dipping my feet in the NOS water.. I also have no idea what certain things mean and where to look, and how to test..
> 
> consider me the Marshall Forum Idiot for the time being, and speak slowly.. I will eventually pick it up...



That's OK. Now you will have New Current Production tubes to compare with once you get some NOS. Until recently, I have done the same thing. I have a dsl 401 that I am tube rolling in right now that I re-tubed with all JJ's not too long ago, and I am really seeing the difference the NOS makes.

It is funny, because I was using NOS 12ax7's back in the late 80's an early 90's because I did not care much for the cp stuff then. But after getting out of playing for a while and not starting back up until '09, I kind of forgot about those things. I had some NOS tubes in my 800, but it is when I picked up my mkiii that I really started to catch back onto the NOS thing and started to learn more about the tonal characteristics of the tubes. I am still learning every day myself and am far from an expert on any of this.

Didn't mean to sound judgmental or anything...


----------



## Sebat

sccloser said:


> Didn't mean to sound judgmental or anything...


 
didnt think you did... No worries!


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Cool. I've never seen any with a square magnet. I do have a CTS (blown) that have a square magnet. I'd give these to someone if they have a use for them. They all read open on my DMM, that's all I can say about them other than no sound comes out. I've got 3 CTS, two with big round magnets and one with a square. Baskets and magnets are in excellent condition. Pay the shipping and they are yours.



Well I have been associated with Waldom for years out of Chicago. Sadly, they closed their doors almost a year ago. I no longer have access to cones, voice coils, spiders, gasket sets and all of the special glues. It sucks. They were my supplier since 1986. I'd recone those speakers if I had the parts.

However-The last time I had eight containers of glue shipped, I had to pay an extra $110 for the special shipping. It just kept going higher and higher.


----------



## sccloser

Ok, I been rolling again in my mkiii. I checked the bias on the GT e34L's (I think they are re-labeled JJ's) and they were good. Only 2 milliamps apart. Seems like I had them biased a little hotter when I first installed them, but they were right in the middle of the range and I left them as is.

Anyway, I ran different Amperexs through v1, and the Mullards and I tried the RCA black plate, and my sylvania 7025s, and various others. I still prefer for now the Amperx orange label (Germany) in it (I think we said this was a Valvo). It is nice, full and articulate and gives me just a little edge. The mullard and the Amoerex Holland tubes were very full and smooth, but took away my edge. They work better in my 401 because they tame the highs. In the Mkiii, that is not needed. I am sure I could adjust the eq a bit and they would sound about as good as the German amperex but I usually leave my eq the same when rolling tubes to get a better comparison. I liked most all the US made tubes in v1...they all seemed brighter and edgy, but like I said that works in my mkiii. 

All tubes were rolled in v1 with a Raytheon Black late in v2 and a JAN Sylavania in the p.i..


----------



## sccloser

Oh, and I also rolled the CP Tung Sol in v1 just before I put the Amperex orangelabel back in. It actually sounds pretty good, even compared to the vintage glass. It is pretty full and smooth, and it is musical, but it see,ed just a little dull, not a lot or bad at all, just lacked some of the sparkle of the others. 

Please remember,however, that the v2 was still the Raytheon BP and the pi was still a JAN Sylvania, so I am sure that they may have given a little assistance to the overall tone and made the Tung Sol sound better than it would if all the tubes were CP.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a fine combination of tubes. Does the German Amperex have a slant or regular halo getter? Regardless, if it's a Valvo, that's a very nice tube. I really like them and I actually sell those for more money than a Herleen Amperex or a Mullard.

You just can't go wrong with the Raytheon BP in V2 and a Sylvania Gray in the PI.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From now on, I am not going to tell anyone what type of tubes I plan to sell them. This is because I want them to buy their tubes from me. 

What a bunch of crap. I still can't get over that guy at 12AX7A, 7025, ECC83, B759 and 12AX7 preamp type tubes. Choose your tube by the sound! Everyone can customize their amps response!


----------



## sccloser

That guy struck a nerve with you, huh?


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's a fine combination of tubes. Does the German Amperex have a slant or regular halo getter? Regardless, if it's a Valvo, that's a very nice tube. I really like them and I actually sell those for more money than a Herleen Amperex or a Mullard.
> 
> You just can't go wrong with the Raytheon BP in V2 and a Sylvania Gray in the PI.



I'd say halo....has a very slight slant, but I would not say it was a slant. It is a little bigger, kind of like a cp tube. But it sure sounds good!

it flashes on start up.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well all I can say is that his select private stock better be what everyone else considers to be select. I have seen that site before. Don't care for the fact that you don't know what you will get brandwise. Other sites charge that much or more but at least they tell you what you are getting.

Analogy: Any rebuilt engine may run good today but next month it may not run as well as a quality rebuilt engine put together by a reputable company.


----------



## RiverRatt

I saw a disclaimer on an eBay auction for some flavor of Philips tubes. They had a 7-day return policy, but only if the tubes were dead. They basically state that all they have is an emissions tester and they aren't responsible if the tube sound bad in your amp. When I see that kind of shit, it usually sends up a warning flag or two.

I took my main caddy back to my music room and I've been rolling some interesting tubes. I found out I have two Amperex, a S&H, several Mullard I63's, a handful of Matsushita D getters, 3 or 4 Ei, a Tungsram, a couple of smooth plate and a couple of ribbed plate Telefunkens, along with some Telefunkens with the diamond bottom, smooth plates and the Philips seams on the top. I'm thinking they must be early Ei construction, but who the hell knows? There's not a mark on them that's readable anymore, but they both had the diamond bottom and the standard Telefunken logo. Much of the rest is Sylvania, Raytheon, GE and RCA stuff, both old long black plates and the newer gray short plates. In the USA tubes, the older long-plate GE's are a fine sounding tubes in a Marshall. A certain person who just won a stash of tubes should be able to confirm this in a couple of days. 

The leftovers, RCA short gray plates, Tung-Sol, mil spec Sylvanias and Raytheons are either very sterile and high gain or just stiff sounding. Put this stuff in a Fender amp though, and it can be magic. It makes sense, really. When voicing the early versions of these amps, Fender used USA tubes and Marshall used British tubes. They sound different and an amp that was voiced for either might not sound good with the other tubes in it. I think of the British sound as punchy mids and the Fender stuff as a more scooped sound with big round lows and smooth highs. I like both and own both as well as a Tweaker that can do either sound pretty well. It kinda bridges the gap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blackone already got my tubes. He got them yesterday. The Post Office got them out to Cali pretty damn quick.

He should have more fun than two turtles in the mud.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen Telefunkens with all sorts of plates and glass (four seams on top too) but they all have the diamond mark on the bottom.


----------



## RiverRatt

Does the diamond really prove that it's a real Telefunken? These don't look exactly like Ei tubes, but I'm wondering if they aren't some early production Ei's.
















One has the diamond on the bottom, one doesn't, but otherwise they are identical. I didn't get a photo of the remains of the Telefunken logo. After they had been handled a couple of times it was pretty much gone.


----------



## mickeydg5

The reason Ei tubes look like Telefunken is because EI basically copied Tele designs and used the same or similar parts in their early years. The true Telefunkens have the diamond.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I know about Ei's history, I'm just wondering if these are the real deal or if not, and if not, who made them? They came out of an old 1960'ish Wurlitzer organ but I'm not sure if they were OEM or some that were added later. It had a pretty broad mix of tubes in it. 

So real Tele's can have seams on the top? I've never seen one with the diamond base and seams before. I assumed these had to have been made by one of the Philips companies like S&H or Ei.


----------



## mickeydg5

From what I know, the diamond marked tubes only came out of the actual Telefunken factory. I also understand that Telefunken was started by S&H. To top that off Philips either had their hand in or bought out S&H and Telefunken along with most everything else. But I guess you can find a later made tube, after Philips involvement, with the S&H or Telefunken markings on them that were not actually made in the Telefunken factory. The diamond is the key to the actual factory.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That just goes to show you how desirable the Telefunkens were, that everyone wanted to copy them. As you know, I have Telefunkens that are not real Telefunkens, but they have the Telefunken label. Some I know are Ei's. Some may be RFT copies.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought it was strange that with those two I had pics of on the previous page, one had a diamond bottom and one didn't. Maybe it's just faint and I can't make it out on the other one - sometimes they are hard to see. Otherwise they are identical tubes.


----------



## sccloser

Speaking of Telefunkens....
I have been running in my 2205:
v1: Tele ribbed
v2: Tele smooth
v3: Wards Airline (RCA)
v4: JAN Sylvania
pi: JAN Tung Sol

Well today, I played it a bit like that, then rolled in the mullard in v1...big difference. Mullard was a little deeper, had more clarity and cleaned up the fuzziness a bit. I think the frequency range on the tele is wider, and it sounds better on the normal channel that I run with the vol cranked to about 8, but on the boost channel it lost some definition and got smooth/fuzzy. It sounded good on some leads, like pouring cream, but lacked some edge. The Mullard sounded like it lost a touch of gain to the tele, but I preferred the clarity of it. I thought I might just stop there and leave the mullard in it, but I decided to roll the Zenith labeled Amperex Holland for the heck of it...

The Amperex in v1 brightened things up a tad and gave me the broader frequency range of the tele, but without the fuzziness (more edge). Does not have quite the clarity of the mullard, but very close, and the fullness of the frequency range made me just slightly prefer it over the mullard in v1 of this amp.

Quitting for a while now while my ears recover and I give my wife a break from the noise.


----------



## mickeydg5

The bottom of that one is disfigured. Maybe you cannot see it too well. After digging into more stuff I noticed that you may be able to use the codes if they were not wiped off of the glass completely. A capital A or B signifies post war Berlin produced. Lower case double letters indicate month and year. This was on Brent Jessee site.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, that's cool. Looks like I have two more Telefunkens than I thought I did. 

Unfortunately all the writing is gone. It was like chalk. When they were pulled from that Wurlitzer, they had been in it for 50 years, so the side facing up had so much dust caked on that you couldn't see the tube, much less the print. The print came off easier than the dust did. Oh well, at least I remember that they said "Telefunken" at one time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here I am on the right side of the picture. Note the two, Blackface Fender Bassman's sitting on top of two, custom 212 cabs loaded with FANE's. 1969 Les Paul Gold Top that was eventually stolen from this same bar. KC's bar located up north of Phoenix by Sedona. 1989.

I am sporting a two tone suntan on my arms courtesy of working as a mobile auto glass installer in the 115+ degree temperatures of Phoenix.






EDIT-I did want to say that these were the amps that I started my tube rolling with. These had RCA 7025's in V1 and GE and RCA's in V2 and V3. Power tubes were Sylvania Fat Boy 6L6GC's. If you remember me telling you that the organ repair shop was located next to our business and they had buckets of tubes. They had a tech who played guitar named Darrell. He tested all my tubes and loaded me a good set in each amp. Of course, in 1985, NOS tubes were still plentiful and we didn't have EBAY, so you could deal with an individual on a one-on-one basis. Those Bassman's are good amps. That circuit has been copied and used by some of the better amp manufacturers. I wish I still had them. Originals are big bucks nowadays.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool stuff. Is that the goldtop that got stolen?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, that's the one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here ya go. These are the "non-shiny" Raytheon Black Plates.

12AX7 Quad Raytheon/Baldwin Black Plate Same Date & Test | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen shinny black and flat black. But unless I am color blind, those things look gray.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are just plain old Raytheon Gray Plates. It makes you wonder if the people that are bidding on them really knows that, or if they believe the seller.

Just proves how it pays to be up on yer tube facts.


----------



## RiverRatt

Was there ever a Raytheon gray plate made in the USA? I think every one I've seen has been MIJ.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Was there ever a Raytheon gray plate made in the USA? I think every one I've seen has been MIJ.



I've got two Raytheon Gray plates that have Made in USA on them...one has it printed on it twice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There's a guy on EBAY selling a lot of 20 MIJ Raytheon Gray Plates. They are the regular halo getter tubes. Nothing spectacular.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I've got two Raytheon Gray plates that have Made in USA on them...one has it printed on it twice.



I don't trust the manufacturers enough to believe the "Made In USA" stamp. Every gray I've seen has been Japanese construction. If they did make them in the USA, they didn't do it for long.


----------



## sccloser

Near the top where it says 12ax7 it also says Made in USA, then in yellow it also is marked made in USA. Slanted D getter, gray plates, with the Sylvania looking plate style with one rectangular slot on one side and two on the other.


----------



## RiverRatt

Post some pics of them. That's kind of an indefinite period for Raytheon. I know that at some time in the 1960's all production was moved to Japan.


----------



## sccloser

Great minds think alike...here are the pics...



[/IMG]



[/IMG]


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm about 99% sure that those are re-labeled Hitachi tubes. The plates are right, but I don't remember ever seeing one with a D getter. Still, all the other clues point toward Hitachi. No way is that a Raytheon USA exhaust tip.


----------



## sccloser

Suh, you insult my toob and my hona...










Just picking...I don't know. It says US on it twice, checked real strong, I'll have to look again to see exactly. The plates remind my of a Sylvania. Not a bad sounding tube. 

Did you get my description of the plates or should I post another pic?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The yellow ink usually designates a later made tube. All the Raytheons that I have that say, "Select" or "Certified" are yellow print and MIJ. I thought I had a relabeled slant Valvo, but then realized it was a Japanese tube.

Also, as pointed out by me several times on this forum. The USA tube manufacturers tended to fib as to where tubes were actually made, until the government stepped in and demanded that they do so. That is when you started seeing tube boxes that said, "Country of origin as marked on tube." Problem is, they still fibbed about this and as an example, I have RCA's that say, "Made in Gt. Britain," but they are Ei's. Philips ECG (Old Sylvania) ran out of old stock and started sticking relabeled Russian military tubes in their USA boxes. I'm sure Alan remembers the guy on EBAY that was selling these tubes and used evasive comments in his product description. To keep sales up and the customer satisfied, that old USA moniker was stamped on a lot of overseas tubes.

Raytheon got out of tube production right after RCA. I believe they tossed in the towel in 1979. However, like RCA, they continued to sell tubes with their brand on the glass.

After 1977, RCA did not have a tube division. Tubes were sold under a new division called, "Special Products Division." Raytheon did what RCA did. They used tactics such as fine print on the boxes and the tubes. On some tubes, I have to wear my strong reading glasses to read the "Japan" on the tube.

Of course, it is nice to buy an RCA that is really a Mullard. That is when it is a good thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

sccloser said:


> [/IMG]
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]








I have a couple of these slant getter tubes that say, Raytheon Select.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have a couple of these slant getter tubes that say, Raytheon Select.



Yeah, those two top ones are Hitachi, the bottom one is the Matsushita that IIRC I had you thinking was a Valvo until we started getting into the 'shitas and figured it out. They sure did look like a Valvo without any writing on them. Toshiba tubes always have a big hole cut out on each side of the mica between the ends of the plates. I haven't seen enough TEN tubes to identify them on-sight, but I think it's about the only thing left over after you rule out Matsushita/Toshiba/Hitachi. Sometimes the Hitachi tubes (usually Curtis Mathes labeled) will have a seam that goes all the way around the tube from top to bottom.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Suh, you insult my toob and my hona...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just picking...I don't know. It says US on it twice, checked real strong, I'll have to look again to see exactly. The plates remind my of a Sylvania. Not a bad sounding tube.
> 
> Did you get my description of the plates or should I post another pic?



Yeah I got it, I meant to post a pic from TubeMongerLib of some Hitachi tubes but we left for my parents' house and I forgot to. There's no dishonor in owning good MIJ tubes. They are great utility tubes, sometimes excellent tone tubes too, and usually very well made. I see a lot of Toshiba tubes labeled "Lindall". They don't sound bad, especially in a Fender amp. If tubemongerlib will allow it, here's a pic of some of their Hitachi tubes.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here I am on the right side of the picture. Note the two, Blackface Fender Bassman's sitting on top of two, custom 212 cabs loaded with FANE's. 1969 Les Paul Gold Top that was eventually stolen from this same bar. KC's bar located up north of Phoenix by Sedona. 1989.
> 
> I am sporting a two tone suntan on my arms courtesy of working as a mobile auto glass installer in the 115+ degree temperatures of Phoenix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT-I did want to say that these were the amps that I started my tube rolling with. These had RCA 7025's in V1 and GE and RCA's in V2 and V3. Power tubes were Sylvania Fat Boy 6L6GC's. If you remember me telling you that the organ repair shop was located next to our business and they had buckets of tubes. They had a tech who played guitar named Darrell. He tested all my tubes and loaded me a good set in each amp. Of course, in 1985, NOS tubes were still plentiful and we didn't have EBAY, so you could deal with an individual on a one-on-one basis. Those Bassman's are good amps. That circuit has been copied and used by some of the better amp manufacturers. I wish I still had them. Originals are big bucks nowadays.



Wow that's cool man, but you forgot to mention that Adwex was your bass player........


----------



## johnfv

I played a lot of years with blackface Fenders because they sounded good and I could afford them. 

Let's see some more old school pics! 

JV


----------



## johnfv

OK, I'll go back a decade before Marty's pic. This is 1979; I am 17 in this photo. The Firebird I was my only guitar at the time. You can see my blackface Showman to the far right. Note the scantily clad chick on the keys far left. Rock and Roll...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that a Peavey CS400 power amp, or is it a BGW (on floor, right side of drummer)? I was 24 in 1979. I had a Peavey Mace 212 Combo, a Renown 212 Combo and a pretty big Peavey PA system (2, CS800's, 2, CS400's, a 12 channel stereo mixing board, 4, SP-1 PA speakers and even some of the white Peavey mic's. I also had a Peavey T40 bass and a small Peavey single 15 bass combo.) My guitar was a 1969 Les Paul Goldtop with a DiMarzio Distortion Plus and PAF in it. (Same one that got stolen many years later.) I also had a Japanese Ibanez (Greco) ES-335. I was loaded with gear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-TC Tubes has a Slant Getter Matsushita and it has a price of $64. By far, their most expensive Japanese tube. It's good to know they have some value. However, I wouldn't pay $64 for one. I'd spend that kind of money on a slant getter Valvo.


----------



## johnfv

Yup, a CS400, you have a good eye Marty. The keys (Fender Rhodes and a Moog) are going through one of those crazy Peavey SS amps with rotary knob "graphic" EQ. Note the bass player has a full SVT cab and Acoustic head. Don't make me try to find a cassette recording! 

Seriously, I don't mean to hijack our tube thread here but I love seeing old school pics... What else you got???

JV


----------



## RiverRatt

John, was your drummer into Ian Paice, or is that really him?


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> John, was your drummer into Ian Paice, or is that really him?


Actually despite the looks he was a total Keith Moon freak. I WISH he was into Ian Paice  Couldn't get him to play a straight beat to save my life!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-TC Tubes has a Slant Getter Matsushita and it has a price of $64. By far, their most expensive Japanese tube. It's good to know they have some value. However, I wouldn't pay $64 for one. I'd spend that kind of money on a slant getter Valvo.



I can't find any of my Matsushita slant getter tubes. I have at least 3 or 4 long plate D getters, but I can't find any of the others. I know I had at least 6 of them at one time. PM me if you have a few you'd get rid of. A lot of four with 1962 date codes went for $103 recently on eBay. That's a huge increase over a year or two ago. I guess people are starting to catch on.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Actually despite the looks he was a total Keith Moon freak. I WISH he was into Ian Paice  Couldn't get him to play a straight beat to save my life!



No wonder. Eight mounted toms?!?! I'm sure you guys helped him set up and break down.


----------



## johnfv

So, I started a thread in the cellar since I didn't want to keep hijacking the tube threads. Please post your vintage pics there!

http://www.marshallforum.com/cellar/34922-youth-wasted-young.html#post496257

JV


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> No wonder. Eight mounted toms?!?! I'm sure you guys helped him set up and break down.


Actually the Rhodes was more of a PITA. Ever move a Yamaha CP70?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, but I have carried a Fender Rhodes about a half-mile to a stage before. There was a thread about Epic Fails in the backstage awhile back that I posted the full story in. Me and the bass player had to carry the Rhodes and then go back for our gear. No kidding - it was a theme park that used to be in Nashville and we went from way out in the parking lot all the way to the far side of the park with that damned thing.


----------



## johnfv

Yup. We called it "coffin duty". So Alan, lets see some vintage pics...


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got some gear pics. I think the drummer from back then has some gig pics. I'll email him and see. You'll love it. My hair was like Noel Redding back then.

The drummer pics go back to around 1986 and I was playing guitar then. I got into big band and swing for awhile there and played a few decent gigs in the 1990s, usually for a bunch of drunks around the holidays. It's fun if you're a sax player, especially when you figure out who the wild drunk chick is going to be. One came running up one night and skidded to a stop in front of the other tenor player (she was missing her shoes and some clothing by the time) and said "Can I BLOW it?" 

This was back in the '90s. I was playing a bass saxophone in a strange band at the local minor league ballpark. Think Squirrel Nut Zippers. This was at the repair shop one day. Dude took my photo because there aren't a lot of bass saxophones around.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Dude took my photo because there aren't a lot of bass saxophones around.


Yours is DEFINITELY bigger!  What else you got?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got two guys searching... maybe they'll come up with something.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan, I gigged with the Tweaker and the 1966B last night. I must say, the tone I got from that was a bit better than the tone I get from my 2204 and 1960AX.. It was pretty massive.


----------



## johnfv

BluesRocker said:


> Alan, I gigged with the Tweaker and the 1966B last night. I must say, the tone I got from that was a bit better than the tone I get from my 2204 and 1960AX.. It was pretty massive.


OMG! I love the Tweaker but not sure I would say ANYTHING is better than a 2204. Has Alan hooked you up with the amazing Russian power tube connection for the Tweaker yet?


----------



## BluesRocker

I actually have Alan's first Tweaker.. LOL 

But The main part that the Tweaker sounds better than the 2204 when I gig it is due to volume. I cant really crank it cause of the places we play. I play in a Christian Rock band. So volume is an issue with us.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is my oldest kid holding my Les Paul Custom sometime around 1994.






Here's an old pic of my rig in 1985. The bottom cabinet was an old Sound City bass cab that I picked up somewhere. It never left the house - it was like moving a refrigerator. The Sound City half stack and the RoadStar with a Kahler trem was a pretty decent rig, but I traded them in for a Crate stereo chorus amp and a Charvel in 1986. Those pictures the drummer has are with the Charvel/Crate rig.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Alan, I gigged with the Tweaker and the 1966B last night. I must say, the tone I got from that was a bit better than the tone I get from my 2204 and 1960AX.. It was pretty massive.



Great! My new Tweaker rig sounds a lot different with a 2x12 open back cab. If I run across a 1965 cab (4x10) I'm going to snag it if I have any money. 

I never told you the real irony behind that trade we did. I traded a MIM tele for that 1966B and that old Harmony amp I had got traded for a Jet City JCA20H which I returned and got the Tweaker, then I traded that to you for a MIM tele. Now I've got your old pair of 12" Legends in a new 2x12 cabinet and I traded the old Ampeg for another Tweaker. I get confused when I try to figure it out, but I think I came out ahead by one MIM Tele. I'm not sure.


----------



## BluesRocker

LOL.. My eyes got crosses trying to figure that out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never was much of a trader. I was pretty happy with the stuff I bought.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have done my fair share of wheeling and dealing. But now I am pretty satisfied with what I have. With maybe the exception of having a wine SG with a Vibrola.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And if you had that, then it would be something else Cody.


----------



## BluesRocker

lol what is your point Marty? It is always good to have something just to see how bad you actually wanted it. Right?


----------



## RiverRatt

OK, weird story for the evening:

I had 2 or 4 beers for supper and went back in my music room to play guitar. I had the Tweaker and the Vintage Modern both running pretty loud. I guess I was getting into it pretty good, and my son comes back and bangs on the door and says "The neighbors called - turn it down!" Our neighbors are really cool so I figured if they called it must be really bad. So I turned it down. 30 minutes later my daughter comes into the room and is laughing at me. They faked the whole neighbor call thing just to make me turn down. So I turned it back up and called it "Piss Off The Neighbors". It's just a snippet as usual. Marshall on the left, Tweaker on the right, bass somewhere in the middle. The mix sounded good on the Mac but it sounds kinda too far right on the PC. Anyway, if y'all get tired of these musical brain farts, just do what the neighbors did (or didn't do).

Piss Off The Neighbors.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> lol what is your point Marty? It is always good to have something just to see how bad you actually wanted it. Right?



Yeah, I walked down the aisle twice, because I wanted to see how bad I actually wanted it.

#1-FAIL!

#2-FAIL!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That Piss Off tune sounded like something that Aerosmith was playing around their "Toys" era.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, I walked down the aisle twice, because I wanted to see how bad I actually wanted it.
> 
> #1-FAIL!
> 
> #2-FAIL!



  

Not laughing that it failed.. Just laughing that you used that analogy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I can laugh at all of that now. My first wife looks like a witch and got HEP C back in her AZ drug days. Wife number two has a butt bigger than the Beatles. She was 110 when I got married to her in 1996. In 1999 when we split, she was close to 150. I saw a picture of her recently. She is now 175+ and has a face like a mule. Her mother is huge. Like mother, like daughter.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> That Piss Off tune sounded like something that Aerosmith was playing around their "Toys" era.



This.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That Piss Off tune sounded like something that Aerosmith was playing around their "Toys" era.



I can see that. Their mixes always sounded a little thin to me back then, and I really focked that one up good. I don't know what happened to the Marshall side. It had balls when I played it back, but lost them in the mixdown. I like double-tracking the rhythm guitar just because it sounds so big. All you're really hearing in that is the Tweaker.

I've got to get some studio monitors or at least a decent pair of studio headphones. There's a dude nearby who has an older Carver power amp that I've been eyeing. A couple of good monitors and that thing and I could raise the roof.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Yours is DEFINITELY bigger!  What else you got?



Okay, this is from the right era, around 1986, but we weren't playing. You can see the other guitar player on the right edge of the photo, my best friend at the time (that's his shoe in the picture - he was always stepping on me). We were in this fat chick's basement hanging out because her parents were gone. I still remember that night. He was there with the fat chick's best friend. I was supposed to be with the fat chick. She took me upstairs and crawled all over me. To be fair, she wasn't really that fat, just a big girl, and she did have her charms...  

That was the last time I was with her, but I started dating her best friend right after that, the one who was dating my best friend. Me and the fat chick's best friend have been married for 23 years and counting  We don't speak to the other two anymore. They thought they were going to get back at us, so they were an item for awhile until she gave him chlamydia. He was then known as "Clam" until we quit hanging around each other. How's that for a convoluted story?

I don't remember if this pic was made before or after the crawling on. From the looks of my hair and eyes, I think it was after.






The drummer says that all those old photos of us playing are in the possession of our coke head friend. I probably won't get any of those. There is one more I'm trying to find, though.


----------



## brp

CanI get your thoughts on this guys?
"
-GE 12AX7A 7025 vacuum preamp tube. Has long gray plates and a halo getter. Tests as new and in mint condition. $20 obo.
-GE 12AX7 vacuum preamp tube. Has long gray plates and a halo getter. In good condition and tests near new. $15 obo.
-RCA 12AX7 vacuum preamp tube. Black ribbed plates with a halo getter. In good condition and tests new. $20 obo. Older version, see below. This is the older 12AX7 version.
-RCA 12AX7 vacuum preamp tube. Black ribbed plates with a halo getter. In good condition and tests new. $20 obo. Older version, see below. This is the older 12AX7 version.
-Emerson 12AX7 vacuum preamp tube. Made in USA to same specifications as Amperex in Holland. In good condition and tests new. $15 obo
-Shuguang (China) 12AX7 tube is popular with Marshall owners for its gain and bite. No label. Looks and tests new. $10 obo.
-Dixie (Japan) 12AX7A vacuum tube. Tests and looks brand new. Short ribbed grey plates. $10 obo.

RCA produced a very nice 12AX7 which is prefered by many people. The oldest version (1950's) had black ribbed plates and did not have the "low noise" type filament which will be marked as 12AX7 not 12AX7A. These were so well made, the low noise filament is not an issue. The ones I have listed are 12AX7 (older versions)Buy all for $60.

Or buy all for $60. "


----------



## RiverRatt

If they are all strong, I think $60 is a fair price. The GE tubes can sound good in a Marshall. I don't know what's going on with the Emerson - AFAIK Philips never made anything to Amperex specs in the USA. It could be a Canadian Electrohome, or the seller may be blowing smoke. The Shuguang is a good spare backup tube that you'll probably never use, and I've never heard of a tube called "Dixie" from Japan, but I'm sure it would at least be a good utility tube. You could probably flip the RCA's and get at least half your $60 back. IMO they don't work that well in a Marshall anyway.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sometimes use RCA's in the cathode follower slot and sometimes for the PI.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Still use RCA 7025's though. Mainly a must for Fender amps.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sometimes use RCA's in the cathode follower slot and sometimes for the PI.


 
That is working for me...I have an RCA Blackplate in my V2 and another in my PI in my JCM2210, and I noticed a nice smoothness when I put the one in the PI slot...


----------



## brp

Thanks guys!
I've no idea what a good test result is, as far as any numbers he may quote. It depends on the tester used, does it not?
I've asked him if he has test results and if he can demontrate/test in person upon pickup....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sometimes use RCA's in the cathode follower slot and sometimes for the PI.



I just don't care for them anymore. They are too vanilla. They just don't color the sound in any way I appreciate. Even in a Fender, I think Sylvania or GE has a lot more character. I can get cheaper tubes for the PI and cathode follower that do just as good if not better. I don't keep RCA's at all. If I ever get a handful of them, I usually sell them as a lot on eBay. The Ampeg and Harmony amps that I bought a few years ago had something like 8 RCA's in them. I sold those on eBay for just about what I had invested in the two amps. I've got a couple of black plates with white labels that I haven't tried yet. Most of the ones I'm talking about are the short plate 12AX7A's with the flat-sided micas.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well most of the RCA's I have are all made before 1964. Most are 1957-59. D Getter. These are good utility tubes.


----------



## solarburn

Perfect tube for the NT's PI slot. Nice clean neutral sounding tube letting the Tone slot shine through. A prudent and experienced tube roll in the NT. It will sound great with an RFT12AX7/RCA(clean neutral tube)PI.


----------



## brp

Cool. I'd kinda like to buy them all just for the experience but I'm not sure if I should since I can't test them. You guys think I should?
It's a (relatively) local deal.

I'll see what he says about the testing, I guess.
Still gonna get a couple others either way....the RFT for v1 and a couple others I'd like to try in my BH1h.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dang, maybe I need to dig through my stuff and see how many I have. You guys are driving up the price. 

Don't get me wrong, I started with probably a GE and an RCA. They are rugged, well-made tubes, I just realized that there were much better options out there for tone. Marty sent me a GE once that sounded killer in a Marshall, and it was a low-testing tube, I think around 20-20 on the B&K. I guess back when I had all those RCA 12AX7A's I rolled them all and didn't get a tone I liked. YMMV.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Cool. I'd kinda like to buy them all just for the experience but I'm not sure if I should since I can't test them. You guys think I should?
> It's a (relatively) local deal.
> 
> I'll see what he says about the testing, I guess.
> Still gonna get a couple others either way....the RFT for v1 and a couple others I'd like to try in my BH1h.



Get some kind of guarantee. You are usually pretty safe in testing preamp tubes in your amp. The chance of catastrophic failure is way less than with power tubes. Compare them to your favorite V1 tube and you'll be able to tell pretty easily if they are weaker than your ideal tube.


----------



## brp

Seems like a good deal to me based on what I've seen on ebay but I know very little 
I don't see much 12ax7's NOS of any kind on ebay for under 30-40 bucks each and I'm checking often just to see what's available. The B.I.N. prices are always at least that much and auction seem to go higher than that for RCA, GE, Sylvania etc.

Also, I have no reference other than Sovtek and JJ CP


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Also, I have no reference other than Sovtek and JJ CP



Just about any of those tubes will sound better than the CP.


----------



## Lowlife

brp said:


> Cool. I'd kinda like to buy them all just for the experience but I'm not sure if I should since I can't test them. You guys think I should?
> It's a (relatively) local deal.
> 
> I'll see what he says about the testing, I guess.
> Still gonna get a couple others either way....the RFT for v1 and a couple others I'd like to try in my BH1h.



I'd grab them, it IS a good deal, most likely you could resell them for more than 60$ assuming they are as strong as he mentions.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a real oldie. I was 13 or 14 at the time IIRC. I'm the tall one in the back. FWIW, I hated the band name, and this was before any of us had heard of Phil Collins or Peter Gabriel.


----------



## Lowlife

The look on the face of the kid to the left is freaking epic


----------



## mickeydg5

Stand By Me, in a band.


----------



## 61rocker

I've been sitting back looking at all these old pics....Here's one of me back in the 70's jammin in Andromeda...original Rock n Roll.....Aims LP Copy and Fender Dual Showman with 2 15" JBLs.....:cool2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that's all I'll be able to find. There's just not that much stuff from way back then. I may have some cassette tapes, though. I've got to dig through our junk and see if I can find them and if they'll still play.


----------



## RiverRatt

How about early tube porn? Here's the first ever picture of a tube that I posted on the internet. 






And the first tubes I scavenged from an old hi-fi...






First Mullard, first Raytheon black plate, and first Telefunken smoothie:


----------



## 61rocker

This is in 1982...I can't even remember what we went by, but we played at a Little Rock Zoo Benefit....We were approached by USA Network after we played and agreed to let them run the show on Night Flight. I think it ran off and on for about 2 years because one nite in N'ville in about '86, I came out of a store and this guy comes up to me and says "Hey, didn't I see you on TV last nite, you were playin' guitar...wow, man...." With my beloved '78 Firebird III and a '70 Marshall Super Lead...reputed to have been sold to the guitar player on Gregg Allman's "I'm No Angel"


----------



## sccloser

Alan, did you take the clip down...I could not listen to it.


----------



## sccloser

I'll look for some old photos. Most of mine will be late 80s...I'm only 44....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, it is so SLoooOOOoooW on the forum tonight. I think I will go to bed early tonight.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man, it is so SLoooOOOoooW on the forum tonight. I think I will go to bed early tonight.



You say this less than 10 minutes after I get here....


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been looking in most all evening. It's been dead. 

What clip, Scott?


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I've been looking in most all evening. It's been dead.
> 
> What clip, Scott?



I think you mean me, Vic...? 

The piss of the neighbor clip/recording...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, Vic. I'm going to have to write everybody's names down. My memory is awful.

I remastered it. The file is the same name, but it must have a different URL now.

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/321696_mb0ps/Piss%20Off%20The%20Neighbors.mp3


----------



## sccloser

I liked that...nice tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it sounds more like it did live, now. I'm mainly just jotting down ideas and sending them to my friend in the hopes that he will be inspired to set up his drums and have a jam session. About the only time we ever play together anymore is if we're doing one of those community theatre things. We usually get there a little early and play some blues or an old rock tune to get warmed up. It's not much, but with work and kids neither one of us has time to do much. 

I can't play much of anything right now. I've been playing that damned bass all weekend and I think my callouses are about to peel off. This is almost as bad as getting them to begin with.


----------



## sccloser

Ok...thanks for the tip...I was going to try playing bass in a song or two in the band but maybe not now....lol!

We got the band going again, moved our part time/guest singer to full time lead / front man, got a new drummer, awesome new bass player (also plays keys, guitar, sings, drums, he does it all!) and picked up a very good female vocalist for some added backups and eventually some songs just for her. Got a gig scheduled for the 25yh of this month...first gig since May 28th, same place as our last gig.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's cool. I wish I could get out and play. I've got the best gear I've ever had and nothing to do with it. I think the drummer is a little intimidated by the Marshall rig. The last time I played out, I used the Hot Rod Deville combo. That thing is like lugging around a boat anchor. It's heavier than an old blackface Super Reverb I had. At least the Marshall has casters.

The bass is different, but fun. Use a pick and at least only one hand will be sore.


----------



## 61rocker

I got together with my new guys here in Memphis...I think we finally have a nucleus...we discussed songs we want to do and things like that....we may add a new guitarist next week....These guys are really good....I have high hopes for this project...we'll have enuff PA, lites, and gear to look really good....


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Ok folks, an update on the SL-X with a GE 5751 in V2:

Quite a noticeable difference at rehearsals last night, I found I had the preamp on 10 & the sensitivity on 14 (as opposed to 10.5) for similar levels of gain. Rolling back the guitar volume allowed me to clean up the sound very nicely while still keeping a nice big sound. It felt more open & responsive to the guitar.

Then there was the tone change, the upper mids were much more "focused" & clearer somehow. Rolling off the volume in single coil mode brought out that nice clanky Strat spank which was missing before. There was a slight treble increase overall, which allowed me to back the treble pot off by 2 notches to about 4. It just seemed to open the sound up in the middle & the amp feels less constricted.

It has certainly changed the voicing, not massively, but it has given it a different character which I do like, even our singer complimented my sound last night, (very unusual as he normally only pokes fun at my rig).

Overall the amp still lacks the big bottom end of older or newer designs, but as of yet I've made no mods at all to the circuit, purely valve changes.


----------



## 61rocker

I've always wanted to check out an SLX or a MK III.....


----------



## mickeydg5

Blacque Jacque said:


> Ok folks, an update on the SL-X with a GE 5751 in V2:
> 
> Overall the amp still lacks the big bottom end of older or newer designs, but as of yet I've made no mods at all to the circuit, purely valve changes.


 
Nice review on the GE5751.

Your bottom end, what power tubes and speakers are you using?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

This is a UK spec 50w with Sovtek 5881's in. Cab is a JCM900 1960A with G12-75's. 

When I get some time I'll fit a 1M bass pot & try that to add a little more thump to it. I will also look at the mods other such as RickyLee's etc.

Guitar last night was a Charvel Model 4 with an EMG 89 in the bridge.


----------



## mickeydg5

Blacque Jacque said:


> This is a UK spec 50w with Sovtek 5881's in. Cab is a JCM900 1960A with G12-75's.
> 
> When I get some time I'll fit a 1M bass pot & try that to add a little more thump to it. I will also look at the mods other such as RickyLee's etc.


 
Ricky and I were discussing the tone and gain mods.

The G12-75 has a decent low. Your amp I take has always been a 5881 model and not changed from EL34? Also, I am not a Sovtek guru, but I think Sovtek tubes may lack a little in the bottom end department. At least that is what I found with some EL34's.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Yes, it still has the 5881 sticker on the front, so it's factory spec. The Sovtek's have less than 50hrs on them at the moment, so I'm not in any hurry to replace them. My understanding is that the power tubes make less difference in the 900's as the preamp is where the tone is shaped pretty much.


----------



## mickeydg5

Not true in my book. The power tubes, just like preamp tubes, make a good bit of difference. Let me just say this, the Sovtek's I had were of my least favorite EL34 power tubes.

Let me add that results do vary, but I think the general consensus is that there are better stuff and construction out there. Maybe you lucked out and got an exceptional set of Sovteks. The only way to find out is compare.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I don't think it sound bad as is, but the bass pot is maxed out & I'd like a little more low end from it, but my old MkIII was the same with old (early 90's) Svetlana EL34's in.

I could get where I want with an eq pedal in the loop I'm sure, but I'd prefer the amp to do it all by itself.

The fact that the 900's have a 220k bass pot rather than 1M like all the other classic Marshalls has bugged me since I discovered it. As it's a relatively simple change I'd like to try it before I get deeper into more involved circuit changes.


----------



## mickeydg5

Blacque Jacque said:


> I don't think it sound bad as is, but the bass pot is maxed out & I'd like a little more low end from it, but my old MkIII was the same with old (early 90's) Svetlana EL34's in.
> 
> I could get where I want with an eq pedal in the loop I'm sure, but I'd prefer the amp to do it all by itself.
> 
> The fact that the 900's have a 220k bass pot rather than 1M like all the other classic Marshalls has bugged me since I discovered it. As it's a relatively simple change I'd like to try it before I get deeper into more involved circuit changes.


 
A 2500 MKIII master volume is basically the same power stage design as your SL-X, that's why.

Change the bass pot. You can also play around with a cap in your feedback circuit to bring out the bass.

We should move this to the SL-X trhead where Ricky was looking into mods for this topic.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Yes, it still has the 5881 sticker on the front, so it's factory spec. The Sovtek's have less than 50hrs on them at the moment, so I'm not in any hurry to replace them. My understanding is that the power tubes make less difference in the 900's as the preamp is where the tone is shaped pretty much.



Are they the Sovtek 5881WXT? They are not a true 5881. If the amp is set up for real 5881's (23 watt tubes), running the Sovtek 5881WXT would be about the same as putting 6L6GC's in it, which probably means they'll be running pretty cold. FWIW, they do sound decent in Fender amps but I've never run them in a Marshall. I had a pair of them but I put them in the Ampeg when I sold it. They didn't have the low end like you would expect from a 6L6GC. If yours aren't WXT's then ignore all this


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Are they the Sovtek 5881WXT? They didn't have the low end like you would expect from a 6L6GC. If yours aren't WXT's then ignore all this


 
See, Sovtek power tube, that is what I am talking about! Less low end.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is the amp spec'd for a 23 watt tube? I have a few nice used Tung-Sol 5881's and I think a NOS pair labeled RCA. I've run the Tung-Sol 5881's in the Egnater Tweaker before and they are the most EL34-sounding tube I've tried in it. IMO they are a darker tube and might give you what you're looking for.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I don't *think* they're WXT's, I'll check tonight when I get home.


----------



## RiverRatt

Look for the weird step-down base on the WXT's.


----------



## GIBSON67

1* NOS tube ECC803S TELEFUNKEN <> premium ECC83, E83CC, 12AX7, 6057 | eBay


Check this out guys, this is crazy. $600 for 1 tube!


----------



## RiverRatt

GIBSON67 said:


> 1* NOS tube ECC803S TELEFUNKEN <> premium ECC83, E83CC, 12AX7, 6057 | eBay
> 
> 
> Check this out guys, this is crazy. $600 for 1 tube!



That's actually a pretty good price for that tube, especially in that condition. Check this out:

https://www.tubeworld.com/ecc803s.htm


----------



## mickeydg5

GIBSON67 said:


> 1* NOS tube ECC803S TELEFUNKEN <> premium ECC83, E83CC, 12AX7, 6057 | eBay
> 
> 
> Check this out guys, this is crazy. $600 for 1 tube!


 
Hey, I saw that tube the other day. The origianl buy it now was $889.

I guess they thank the heavens for audiophiles. But they also drive the prices up.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Look for the weird step-down base on the WXT's.



Nope, they're marked 5881/.6L6GC Sovtek Made In Russia & they look just like (I know the pic show 6L6WGC on the tube) this except no date code:


----------



## GIBSON67

Man, I wish I had some to sell...Those are crazy prices. Are these the best of the best??


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you have a really good sounding tube in V1, say a Telefunken Ribbed Plate and you decided to try the Telefunken 803 and it sounded just a little bit better, would that be worth the extra $530 to you?

Certain people have created these "fantasy" prices for audio tubes. Some people have a lot of spare cash and not a lot of common sense. You got to remember that there are HiFi audiophiles that have thousands of dollars invested in their systems. It is nothing for them to spend $600 for a preamp tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll never know. I have read where some say they are over-hyped and you're just as well off to spend your money on several Telefunken smooth plates. Anybody want to bite the bullet and to a comparison? I'll even supply the smooth plate Tele.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Nope, they're marked 5881/.6L6GC Sovtek Made In Russia & they look just like (I know the pic show 6L6WGC on the tube) this except no date code:



That's still a 30w. tube that'll handle 500v on the plates. Not exactly true to the 5881 specs. A 5881 is a 23w/400v tube. I still don't know what the specs are for the 5881 version of the SL-X. Any idea what the plate voltage is on it? It may be designed around the more robust Sovtek specs. I'll dig deeper into it when I'm at home this evening.


----------



## GIBSON67

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if you have a really good sounding tube in V1, say a Telefunken Ribbed Plate and you decided to try the Telefunken 803 and it sounded just a little bit better, would that be worth the extra $530 to you?
> 
> Certain people have created these "fantasy" prices for audio tubes. Some people have a lot of spare cash and not a lot of common sense. You got to remember that there are HiFi audiophiles that have thousands of dollars invested in their systems. It is nothing for them to spend $600 for a preamp tube.



I wouldn't! But if I was laden with all kinds of cash, yeah, I guess I would.

Must be nice...


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> That's still a 30w. tube that'll handle 500v on the plates. Not exactly true to the 5881 specs. A 5881 is a 23w/400v tube. I still don't know what the specs are for the 5881 version of the SL-X. Any idea what the plate voltage is on it? It may be designed around the more robust Sovtek specs. I'll dig deeper into it when I'm at home this evening.


 

Yes sir. The 5881 can and will handle more than the specified 400V. Fender use to do it all the time. Marshall too.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes sir. The 5881 can and will handle more than the specified 400V. Fender use to do it all the time. Marshall too.



Yeah, I remember reading something on one of those pages that a tube rectifier helped, too. You'd still need to bias it using 23w instead of 30w though, wouldn't you?


----------



## RiverRatt

Why do I keep ending up at the top of the damned page?!?! I hate having to look at something I wrote every time I click on the thread.


----------



## MM54

That just means you post a lot, Alan


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I remember reading something on one of those pages that a tube rectifier helped, too. You'd still need to bias it using 23w instead of 30w though, wouldn't you?


 
Definitely. You aways use that specific tube's max plate and screen dissapation as factors.

As for voltage, I have seen 5881 tubes with 480+ volts at the plates.


----------



## 61rocker

I'm posting this here cuz it seems to be the busier thread....Can anyone ID these tubes?...I can get them cheap....I know there are 2 Shunguang 12ax7s in there....Maybe JnJs on the 3 el34s? If so, I'll probably pass...the fourth one?.....


----------



## mickeydg5

61rocker said:


> I'm posting this here cuz it seems to be the busier thread....Can anyone ID these tubes?...I can get them cheap....I know there are 2 Shunguang 12ax7s in there....Maybe JnJs on the 3 el34s? If so, I'll probably pass...the fourth one?.....


 
Well, the power tubes look like marshall branded EL34's. The 3 to the left are 90's Tesla and the one to the right is Sovtek, from what I can see.


----------



## RiverRatt

That fourth EL34 might be an RFT. Sovtek pretty much made a copy of the RFT tube back with the EL34G tube, and if it's as old as the Tesla tubes, a Sovtek would have copper grid posts. It's hard to tell in the pic, but it doesn't look like copper.


----------



## solarburn

Alan check this out. Just the playing as the guy is talking in German. Nice blues/rock amp. I see why you have one.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcpI_LpaP_g&feature=related[/ame]

Beginning to 1:47(mid gain or CR tone)

3:57 to 5:16 classic rock guitar roll off...

7:32 to 8:16(cleans)


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> That fourth EL34 might be an RFT. Sovtek pretty much made a copy of the RFT tube back with the EL34G tube, and if it's as old as the Tesla tubes, a Sovtek would have copper grid posts. It's hard to tell in the pic, but it doesn't look like copper.


 
It looks a little orangy to me. To the right but hard to see.

ADD: I take that back. It is a RFT. A sovtek base may have been about 3/16" taller than what you see there. In the 90's I think.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Guy on EBAY selling tubes marked "Made In Holland," as MULLARDS.

Hey, the shipping is free.


----------



## MM54

Were there any Holland-made tubes other than Amperex? Just curious (you sparked it with that)


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> It looks a little orangy to me. To the right but hard to see.
> 
> ADD: I take that back. It is a RFT. A sovtek base is about 3/16" taller than what you see there. In the 90's I think.



I have a pic of both - I think I have pictures of just about every decent tube I have, and a few dogs (EL34G). You're right about the bases.


----------



## 61rocker

My Siemans/RFTs are slightly taller that my EHs and a Sovtek I have, but otherwise they look close....The others could be .....I was hoping some later Teslas...I may pull the trigger, they're cheap enuff to roll the dice on....Teslas were made until about 95?? I know they changed a little from the originals....there is supposed to be one RCA with the preamp tubes....


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Alan check this out. Just the playing as the guy is talking in German. Nice blues/rock amp. I see why you have one.
> 
> Oliver L.: Marshall 2266 Topteil - YouTube
> 
> Beginning to 1:47(mid gain or CR tone)
> 
> 3:57 to 5:16 classic rock guitar roll off...
> 
> 7:32 to 8:16(cleans)



Purple rules!


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Were there any Holland-made tubes other than Amperex? Just curious (you sparked it with that)



Amperex was an American brand that was bought out by Philips. Philips used the Amperex brand to launch their new line of miniature tubes. Some of the Herleen produced tubes were marked as Philips tubes. Amperex tubes were also relabeled by other Philips brands. You can get a Valvo that is made in Herleen.

I can't recall any other tube manufacturer being in Holland (NL).


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Amperex was an American brand that was bought out by Philips. Philips used the Amperex brand to launch their new line of miniature tubes. Some of the Herleen produced tubes were marked as Philips tubes. Amperex tubes were also relabeled by other Philips brands. You can get a Valvo that is made in Herleen.
> 
> I can't recall any other tube manufacturer being in Holland (NL).



I didn't even know about the Sittard plant until I got those tubes that Joe has. They are supposed to be really rare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are rare. The Sittard plant was not nearly as big as the Herleen plant. From what I have been able to research, the Sittard plant was making EL84's and they are considered as some of the finest available. I'm pretty sure no ECC81-83 tubes were made there. I would like to know what all was made at Sittard besides EL84's.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I didn't even know about the Sittard plant until I got those tubes that Joe has. They are supposed to be really rare.



Yeah these EL84's are really nice sounding. Its an honor to be able to run these in my amp. Very nice old glass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And let's not forget the hometown of Philips, Eindhoven, Holland. 

POPE-Very unusual label that can be found on a tube in Holland. Pope means "Productie Overschot Philips Eindhoven" = surplus production from Eindhoven. Not real clear as to what all was made here, but they did have a 9 pin miniature line.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Amperex was an American brand that was bought out by Philips. Philips used the Amperex brand to launch their new line of miniature tubes. Some of the Herleen produced tubes were marked as Philips tubes. Amperex tubes were also relabeled by other Philips brands. You can get a Valvo that is made in Herleen.
> 
> I can't recall any other tube manufacturer being in Holland (NL).



Very cool, thanks! Somewhere back home I have an Amperex that I'm pretty sure was made in Holland, so I was wondering about that sort of stuff


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are rare. The Sittard plant was not nearly as big as the Herleen plant. From what I have been able to research, the Sittard plant was making EL84's and they are considered as some of the finest available. I'm pretty sure no ECC81-83 tubes were made there. I would like to know what all was made at Sittard besides EL84's.



I don't know. That would be a great addition to the Philips code book if anybody could come up with that info. I've seen the other NL factories in Sittard and Eindhoven listed in the book but never heard of tubes coming from there. There are 69 different Philips factory codes listed in the book but I've only seen glass from a small percentage of them.


----------



## GIBSON67

TDSL Tube search

Here's tube link that I use to see if a certain tube has substitutes...

Hope it's helpful...


----------



## CROiga

Hi guys,
this is my first post, since I just got myself a JCM2000 DSL 100 head.
I was a Mesa man before, but decided to go to the dark side LOL....
Anyway,... I play mainly heavy metal from 80s and 90s era, hair metal and such,... and I love high gain, with deep low end and mids with lot of headroom...
My DSL is still having the stock tubes in it, and I would like to put some new tubes to make it sound the best it can for what I play,... 
any suggestion is very much welcome,....

I stumbled on this tube sets, but dont have a clue about it...
https://ssl.eurotubes.com/cart/index.php?page=view_products&category_id=9&sub_category_id=45

anyway, I like the Marty`s idea of Rca 7025 in V1 and 12BZ7 in V2, but I`m a total noob in all of this,... I`m the kind of guy that likes to turn up the gain knob, and I`m a bit afraid not to get a screaming amp if I put to strong tubes in it,... I even sometimes use Zakk ZW-44 with it`s lead channel.

shoot away...


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Did your EL84's have an "X" on the glass?

Go Here: Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-Did your EL84's have an "X" on the glass?
> 
> Go Here: Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes



I'll go look...


----------



## solarburn

I see an X9D. Has a D-getter. Looks like this one.

Code: rX3 X7-9X Sittard, Holland
Identified by:
- 3 slots in plate
- D-getter
Comment:
Very rare.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Then it is a "real" one for sure.


----------



## solarburn

Fuck. This is some nice glass I have here in my hand. Very rare fellas! It sounds good too.


----------



## solarburn

Oops it just fell off the table...FUCK!


----------



## solarburn

Not!


----------



## gameshound

Hey boys an girls!!

Here is probably one of the rarest tubes I have in my collection!!! An mCN (delta)L..(unless a 7 got put on upside down???)
Sold one of these for $75.00 before I really knew what I had!!
comments are welcome!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I knew they had the Sittard X code. I can't remember exactly what the label said, but it was something that would lead you to believe that they were premium Motorola tubes. Not the Golden series with the gold writing and gold pins - the label is more gray on these. They are the only EL84's I've seen like this. The only other surviving one is in my Vox AC4TV and it takes a power screwdriver and a lot of patience to change (or look at) the tubes. They had kind of a "sooty" look to them. I can't believe I don't have a picture of them. I always make pictures of good tubes.

Top of the page again. I have a streak going.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I knew they had the Sittard X code. I can't remember exactly what the label said, but it was something that would lead you to believe that they were premium Motorola tubes. Not the Golden series with the gold writing and gold pins - the label is more gray on these. They are the only EL84's I've seen like this. The only other surviving one is in my Vox AC4TV and it takes a power screwdriver and a lot of patience to change (or look at) the tubes. They had kind of a "sooty" look to them. I can't believe I don't have a picture of them. I always make pictures of good tubes.



Yeah it says Motorola and in Grey it reads Golden.


----------



## RiverRatt

gameshound said:


> Hey boys an girls!!
> 
> Here is probably one of the rarest tubes I have in my collection!!! An mCN (delta)L..(unless a 7 got put on upside down???)
> Sold one of these for $75.00 before I really knew what I had!!
> comments are welcome!!



Looks like a really nice old Amperex. Does it have a foil getter or am I seeing some sort of reflection on the glass?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have some foil getter Amperex. Pretty sweet tubes.

Also, I can't find my silver plate Mazda. That sucks. That's what happens when you got tubes in drawers, in the closet, inside shoe boxes and in a storage unit.

I'm also looking for a matched pair of 1959 Bugle Boys.


----------



## gameshound

yep it's got foil getter..I also have a couple 12au7's of the same vintage but one is dead!!!

I just like to look at that on..will be n my shadow box "museum" if I ever get it going

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have some foil getter Amperex. Pretty sweet tubes.
> 
> Also, I can't find my silver plate Mazda. That sucks. That's what happens when you got tubes in drawers, in the closet, inside shoe boxes and in a storage unit.
> 
> I'm also looking for a matched pair of 1959 Bugle Boys.


LOL..I know how ya feel man..I will post pictures of my "Toob Room" sometime and let you marvel at the depth and breadth of my gluttony...It really is a sickness!!!

I gotta 5 pack of 5751 i been looking for for 6 months at least..there in the jungle somewhere

Hey Marty..whats the rarest stuff you got..I do have some 7025 labelled Mullards..shorties..I know they are not common at all

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah it says Motorola and in Grey it reads Golden.


hey guys

This post made me dig through some of my el84's...I got a couple with the "X" for sittard on em....could test...if anyone was interested they could private message me!!

Gameshound


----------



## RiverRatt

gameshound said:


> Hey Marty..whats the rarest stuff you got..I do have some 7025 labelled Mullards..shorties..I know they are not common at all
> 
> Gameshound



I have some IEC Mullards that are labeled 7025. I sent one to Marty awhile back for services rendered. 

That long-plate Amperex you've got isn't very common. I guess the most rare tube I have is the long plate mC Mullard. That or the Telefunkens with seams on top and a diamond bottom.

Marty, good luck finding those tubes. I know how it is. What's worse is finding empty boxes. I can never remember why they don't have tubes in them - I obviously took the time to write a name and number on them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a pair for you Joe. 

2 EL84 6BQ5 PHILIPS MINIWATT VINTAGE rX3 CODE D GETTER HOLLAND RARE | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE or ALAN-I just spent a couple of hours going through my main lot of tubes. I still cannot find the Mazda Silver Plate.

Did I mail this tube to either one of you to try out? I'm running out of viable answers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Not me. I'd remember that. I remember seeing pics when you got it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know this is a stupid question, but have you gone through every preamp in your house?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE or ALAN-I just spent a couple of hours going through my main lot of tubes. I still cannot find the Mazda Silver Plate.
> 
> Did I mail this tube to either one of you to try out? I'm running out of viable answers.



Nope. I remember you talking about it. Shit that's an expensive tube. Hope you find it.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a pair for you Joe.
> 
> 2 EL84 6BQ5 PHILIPS MINIWATT VINTAGE rX3 CODE D GETTER HOLLAND RARE | eBay



Nah I'm good with my RFT's. I swear your Sittard's are getting warmer sounding the more I play them...


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys! Just got a trade offer on my 800.. for a lot of stuff


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Nah I'm good with my RFT's. I swear your Sittard's are getting warmer sounding the more I play them...



I want a sitar 

Oh, wait, tubes? Yeah I like those too


----------



## solarburn

Gonna go eat pizza and watch a movie. Be back after I engorge myself...


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey guys! Just got a trade offer on my 800.. for a lot of stuff



Well, you can't leave us hangin'. What stuff?


----------



## sccloser

Yeah...tells us!


----------



## BluesRocker

An Ibanez, and Epi,a JCM900, and a loaded pedal board with some sweet pedals on it like TC Electronics echo, and OCD and some other shit. lol


----------



## RiverRatt

What kind of Ibanez, Epi and JCM900? If it's a MKIII I would probably do it. Don't know about a DR.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah the mkiii is the better 900 IMO. What kind of Epi?


----------



## BluesRocker

Ibanez Artcore, and Epi Spotlight

The 900 is a DR its a 4100


----------



## sccloser

Spotlight is pretty cool. Doesn't it have block inlays and a small 3x3 headstock with the split diamond logo on it?


----------



## BluesRocker

Something like that. It looks like a PRS


----------



## sccloser

Pearl white? One of the forum members had one for sale in the classifieds recently.


----------



## sccloser

I have a mkiii, but I do not know what else I could throw in towards the 800.I am using most of my equipment with the band. Unless you like firearms...


----------



## BluesRocker

no this one is natural kinda


----------



## BluesRocker

I really do want a class 5
lol


----------



## sccloser

I have a class 5....with a Mullard el84 in it....


----------



## BluesRocker

lol I see that.. what kind of firearms do you have?

Do we need to discuss this on the phone? lol


----------



## sccloser

I pm'd you...


----------



## MM54

I like guns, have plenty. In fact, today is Mikhail Kalashnikov's birthday! He's 92.

I look forward to the day when I can afford to buy more  (Trust me, Gun GAS is as bad or worse than Gear GAS)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love guns!!! Yes I do.


----------



## sccloser

Guns, guitars and motorcycles seem to go together. I can't tell you how many times I was hanging out in the local gun store and a guitar conversation broke out.


----------



## sccloser

I sold all my AK's to pay taxes the first year I opened my own business. Since I have been self employed I had to sell most of the goodies I accumulated when I had a regular job. I always get caught at tax time because when you are self employed you pay more taxes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I still have a couple of brand new AK's and around six SKS's. I also have one of these beauties including the illuminated scope. (Dragunov SVD)


----------



## sccloser

Never had a Dragunov. They were relatively cheap when I first saw one back around 91 or 92, but they got expensive quick. They are cool though. I nearly bought a svt 1940 once...but it got away from me...

I was big into the german k98's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The K98's were on the market in a big way five years ago. They must have sold a bunch of them. I'm real keen on WWII era military firearms. I dig the stuff they made back then. Built like a tank. I got an SKS that I put the synthetic modern stock on and it makes a really nice deer gun. Here is a generic picture of how it looks.


----------



## BluesRocker

Id like to have a Barrett .50 cal. lol

Or I would settle for a Desert Eagle .50 too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome to the BIG Guns and LITTLE Tubes thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Guns, guitars and motorcycles seem to go together. I can't tell you how many times I was hanging out in the local gun store and a guitar conversation broke out.



There's a pawn shop in a town not far from here. I don't think it has a name, just a big sign that says GUNS GUITARS GOLD.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I saw an hour special on that Barrett 50 cal a week ago. The sniper rifle is scary. The metal jacket round just slices through flat metal. Of course, it is one heavy SOB.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you go to my Home Page and select "About Me," under interests it says, "Girls, Guns and Guitars."


----------



## BluesRocker

Do ya feel lucky?






Well do ya? Punk!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd hate to go deer hunting with that.


----------



## BluesRocker

lol Me too.. Check this out. We can put this in perspective here.


----------



## sccloser

Got my first SKS around 1989. Sold all of those, too.

Yeah, I was into the mausers before they got really popular. I used to get them cheap, then they skyrocketed. I sold or traded of most of them. Again, taxes had to be paid. All matching (non-russian capture...these were vet bring backs) that I had $300 to $400 in were bringing over a grand! 




[/IMG]

That's me on the end with an RC k98. I think it is a 337 code 1940. I won a lot of matches with that rifle.


----------



## sccloser

This is the homemade single shot 50 BMG we used to shoot. This was before they became readily available on the market. This was a pic from 04 I think. 




[/IMG]


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't even begin to fathom how many 50BMG rounds have been used since its conception. All the airplanes that used that round and all the machine guns used. Wow! Millions and millions of rounds. Probably billions. I would just like to know how many rounds the DOD bought between 1914 and the end of the Viet Nam War.

That 50 cal is a "Slobber Knocker!"


----------



## sccloser

A few of the garands I used to own...




[/IMG]

And a few of the Mausers....






I used to have a lot of fun back in those days....


----------



## RiverRatt

I traded a shotgun for my bass. 

I like Browning long guns. I grew up around my dad's Browning BAR 30-06 gold trigger. You didn't need a scope with that rifle - not too long range but perfect for deer around here. He also had a Browning 12 gauge automatic and a BL-22 that you could hit beer bottles with at +150' all day. That was the gun he took squirrel hunting. I haven't been hunting in years but I still like shooting. There's a clay bank out where my grandmother lived that you could probably dig a few pounds of lead out of.

There's a really sweet looking 303 Enfield at the pawn shop where I got the bass. I don't see many of those around here.


----------



## brp

I have no guns. But I would if it wasn't a huge ordeal to own them here nowadays.
I used to shoot alot with my Dad. I once took a course that my Dad said I had to take because they were changing the laws and if I took the course before they did, I'd be able to own guns easier throughout my life. Unfortunately this was when I was a teenager and didn't realize how things you didn't do then would bite you in the ass later. 
I let the license I got expire and then years later, sure enough I found out that the laws had changed and if I'd kept that licence up to date, I'd have had a "grandfather clause" license sorta deal. Now it's much more difficult and I don't care enough to be bothered.


----------



## sccloser

I had a sweet FZ Enfield once, still in the arsenal wrap, manufactured about 1956 and stored in the armory ever since, that I got for $150 once years ago. It was basically brand new. Nicest, best shooting Enfield that I ever owned. Really loved it and should have held onto it. It was a No2 Mk4 I think.


----------



## sccloser

Sorry, it was a No2mk4, made in 1954...here is a pic I found.




[/IMG]


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never cared for the .303 round. Not a long range round. However, there were some nice rifles made for that round.

Sort of like the old 30/40 Krag round.


----------



## Lespaulnmarshall




----------



## sccloser

Lespaulnmarshall said:


>



I didn't know I could hunt those around here, I just bought mine online...


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I still have a couple of brand new AK's and around six SKS's. I also have one of these beauties including the illuminated scope. (Dragunov SVD)



Those take the 7.62x54R, don't they? I have a 1938 Mosin-Nagant M91 that uses that round, it's a hell of a shot 



BluesRocker said:


> Id like to have a Barrett .50 cal. lol
> 
> Or I would settle for a Desert Eagle .50 too.



Me too. The only problem is that 50-caliber ammo is EXPENSIVE! And I've been to conventions where they had barrett 50's as well as price tables - They're as expensive as they are heavy


----------



## sccloser

I think I may have to right combo going now guys! Last week I swapped in a Zenith labelled Amerx Holland ecc83 into v1, a Telefunken smoothie in v2, GE in v3, Sylvania in v4 and a Tungs Sol in the p.i. (all NOS) in my 2205 and was liking the tone pretty well. Well, I tested last week through the 1960 a cab with 75's. Tonight I played it through the 1960ax with gb's and it was AWESOME! I may stick a Mullard in just to see how it sounds, but this thing is great right now! Lots of articulation and definition. Good, tight bottom end! Wide frequency response. The gb's are giving me a little woodiness and it is sounding fantastic! Even on the boost channel with the gain up high, the bottom is staying pretty tight! I usually have to use an eq pedal to get this kind of articulation and tight bottom. I think this is the amp and cab combo for the next gig!


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> I think I may have to right combo going now guys! Last week I swapped in a Zenith labelled Amerx Holland ecc83 into v1, a Telefunken smoothie in v2, GE in v3, Sylvania in v4 and a Tungs Sol in the p.i. (all NOS) in my 2205 and was liking the tone pretty well. Well, I tested last week through the 1960 a cab with 75's. Tonight I played it through the 1960ax with gb's and it was AWESOME! I may stick a Mullard in just to see how it sounds, but this thing is great right now! Lots of articulation and definition. Good, tight bottom end! Wide frequency response. The gb's are giving me a little woodiness and it is sounding fantastic! Even on the boost channel with the gain up high, the bottom is staying pretty tight! I usually have to use an eq pedal to get this kind of articulation and tight bottom. I think this is the amp and cab combo for the next gig!



Sounds just like my next girlfriend and what she'll give me every time I think of her...


----------



## sccloser

Sounds sexy, doesn't it?


----------



## Sebat

I was able to finally get some new tubes in my JCM 900 SL-X 2500 this week. I ended up getting a high gain Tung Sol in V1, JJ's in V2and V3 and an Electro Harmonix in V4... I also put in some new Power Tubes JJ's KT77's

My amp has never sounded better, ever. Not only did changing the tubes bring new life into it, I feel like I got a brand new amp! seriously amazed at the sounds this thing puts out. Such a heavy and punchy sound! (Which is what I want/need) 

While the guy was putting in the tubes, he also cleaned my pots and fixed a couple issues he found.. Here is his blog about what he does..
Marshall SL-X 2500. New tubes, bias and pots clean up. « Tetsuo Electronics.

Anyway, I appreciate all the help you guys provided for me.. even though I didnt get any NOS tubes yet, I learned a bunch from you (and reading through the past posts etc) 

now I plan on adding tubes to my collection and seeing what happens when I change things up...


----------



## sccloser

The Tung Sol 12ax7 is probably one of the best sounding of the cp tubes. And JJ's are decent. If you like the way that Tung Sol sounds, try an Amperex. yes, it can be better...

Good luck and have fun rolling tubes!


----------



## RiverRatt

The Tung-Sol 12AX7 is a decent tube. I prefer the Shuguang 12AX7's myself. They are usually a little higher gain and a little less dark to me. I haven't used them since I had my DSL, but I wasn't impressed by their performance in V1 of that amp.


----------



## BluesRocker

Heres some tunes for you all tonight!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MA0m1K2jW4&feature=player_embedded]Rival Sons - Pressure And Time - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abyOSwKgsCM]Rival Sons - All Over The Road - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that sounds pretty good, but I still like these guys better.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch-4Iu9hd2k&feature=fvsr]Black Stone Cherry - Hell and High Water - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## mickeydg5

That is some good stuff. Thanks for the videos.

*I love Black Stone. Seen them 4 times.*


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty did I ever tell you that I was almost in their video for Soul Creek


----------



## mickeydg5

I was reminded of this one earlier today because we were discussing Toby Keith's Solo Cups.

I Hate Your Guts ZW - YouTube

Hope it works.


----------



## MartyStrat54

One of my fantasies was to make it as a rock star and come back and play at my old high school. I see the BSC vid and it just makes me cry. They actually had my fantasy come true. (Sure was a lot of hotties running around in that vid.)


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah they keep true to their home. They know who got them started, and they play down here in a convention center once a year. Admission is usually $5 and a can of soup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They have a lot of female fans. Most rock bands don't, but they do. Next time they are in my area, I am going to see them.


----------



## BluesRocker

Your luck it will be a sausage fest


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of my fantasies was to make it as a rock star and come back and play at my old high school. I see the BSC vid and it just makes me cry. They actually had my fantasy come true. (Sure was a lot of hotties running around in that vid.)



I played enough gigs for my high school when I was in the damned thing for no pay, no appreciation, nothing. I don't think I would go back if I was bigger than the Beatles. Fuck 'em.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> One of my fantasies was to make it as a rock star and come back and play at my old high school. I see the BSC vid and it just makes me cry. They actually had my fantasy come true. (Sure was a lot of hotties running around in that vid.)



Well, I got close...I'm not a rock star but I did play my high school 25 year class reunion and it was sweet!


----------



## sccloser

Ok, I guess I am going to HAVE to change the speaker in the dsl 401 if I am going to be able to use it at band practice. I did a lot of tweaking and all with it and had it sounding pretty good at home, but I was playing it through a 1960 cab. I took it to practice today and played through it and it sounded like crap. It was OK by itself, but would not cut through the mix. I tried to eq it, but it ended up sounding like it had an aluminum foil speaker. I have never heard any marshall amp sound so sh...crappy my whole life. It was embarrassing it sounded so bad. The other guitar player had a legend 50 combo that sounded like a 1959 sl compared to my amp! 
So, what speaker do I need? Somebody help me. The Class 5 just blows this amp away and it should not. We are talking paper thin sound. The only time this amp even sounds close to decent with a band is when I play on the clean channel cranked, and even then it still was kinda thin.

Marty...speaker-man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I commented on your thread.


----------



## 61rocker

I slipped another one under the Radar...I won a 1958 RCA angled D getter 12ax7 for $4.54 from a top rated seller with a guarantee....it's supposed to test at 92-90...it's on it's way....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are solid tubes. I like them. I am running low on them myself. I think I have five left in stock. All 1959's.

At $4.54, you stole it.


----------



## solarburn

Nice score 61rocker.


----------



## brp

Wow. I need to find deals like that!

PM's coming all around when I get home from work, guys (around 9pm PST)


----------



## RiverRatt

I should still be at work, but I wasn't into it tonight. What am I gonna do, fire myself? I'll get up in the morning early and head back so I can get everything done and maybe everybody won't be pissed off at me. 

I've got one tube deal like that working, but I'm not going to jinx it and say what it is. Somebody would probably snipe me anyway.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm a snipe hunter and I will snipe your bid so watch out man.


----------



## brp

lol
I suck at sniping, always get outsniped. I guess the key is to know what your max. is and be ready to go to it quicker if there seems to be a few snipers. Isn't there a way to have it autobid in 50 cent increments until it reaches a max you preset? I thought there was but I couldn't see that last time I was bidding.

Got all my PM's out so those who were expecting one from me should have it now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The problem with sniping is that it doesn't always work out due to technical difficulties such as a slow Internet just at the time you want to submit a bid.


----------



## MM54

55Mbit internet connection at school (here) -> Instant Bidding

Problem is I don't have money to snipe off tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm a snipe hunter and I will snipe your bid so watch out man.



Not this one you won't I'll bet. 

It's not something you usually go after, and it's only one tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a clue - it has a D in it.


----------



## brp

Hey Alan, you gotta clear out some of your old PM's, I'm getting an error cuz you've exceeded your limit.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those are solid tubes. I like them. I am running low on them myself. I think I have five left in stock. All 1959's.
> 
> At $4.54, you stole it.


 
It's getting harder to get these kind of deals...I had some beginners luck at first....IMO...people seem to be paying more right now...I had a Mullard with a square getter going for $6 and some change with a max of $16 and somebody got me at the last second with $16.50....the deals are out there but it takes a little luck too


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Hey Alan, you gotta clear out some of your old PM's, I'm getting an error cuz you've exceeded your limit.



Fixed it. Sorry. I'm always doing that.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm a snipe hunter and I will snipe your bid so watch out man.



You still using a 50 cal to snipe with...?






Oh my what big rounds you have...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, I had a guns and ammo calender with some outrageous babes. You would have liked it. It was all topless chicks holding AK's and M-16's and other military arms. I kept it until my second wife threw it away. (She was probably mad that most of the pages stuck together.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Go here for a secret VID of hot gun chicks.

http://fstoppers.com/the-perfect-photoshoot-sexy-british-military-babes-shooting-machine-guns


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. One more VID and I'll stop.

Girlwatcher - Hot Girls with Guns - Hot Shots 2010 Calendar | The Smoking Jacket

Man, a couple of those chicks are in the DD club.


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You still using a 50 cal to snipe with...?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my what big rounds you have...



Incendiary rounds nonetheless, impressive!

No homo...


----------



## brp

Reminds me of a scene from one of my alltime fave movies

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRJpvUwDlG8]Chicks Who Love Guns - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

And just think, if you got the money you can own one of these without any special permits.

I'm sure you know that California made these illegal to own and Barrett has put a fucking to the CALI law enforcement agencies who own them. (Barrett does not honor any warranty claims on California law enforcement models.) Also, Barrett came out with a necked down 50 called a 416 that they sell in CALI. The 416 actually has better ballistics than the 50.


----------



## MM54

California can go fuck itself. When are they due to break off and float out to sea again?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got to get to work on moving some tubes. Matt, I'm going to try to hook up with HAM dude and get my collection back. I've gotten used to them being out of the house. I'm sure that there are still some treasures in there, but they are few and far between. Thing is, you can't take any box at face value. I've found countless boxes that were stamped with one number, had another number inked in, and had a different tube than either number inside. I wish this guy had just thrown his old tubes into a big box like everybody else.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I've got to get to work on moving some tubes. Matt, I'm going to try to hook up with HAM dude and get my collection back. I've gotten used to them being out of the house. I'm sure that there are still some treasures in there, but they are few and far between. Thing is, you can't take any box at face value. I've found countless boxes that were stamped with one number, had another number inked in, and had a different tube than either number inside. I wish this guy had just thrown his old tubes into a big box like everybody else.



Cool, keep me up to date


----------



## RiverRatt

Can you use a 6K6 output tube, or is that too low?


----------



## MM54

Let me look up the datasheet and get back to you in a moment

Edit: It's right on the bleeding edge of what the CA10 pushes, I don't know off the top of my head if it could take it or not, if it does it may eat the thing for breakfast. Your call, it may be awesome, may blow shit up


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't make you use the drugs, I mean tubes, I'm just sellin' you something, you know what I'm sayin'? If you want to use them to blow your shit up, that's your call not mine.


----------



## RiverRatt

Saw this at the pawn shop that had the Enfield 303. It's an Enfield 300 Mag.






And for comic relief, how in the hell do you get towed for speeding around the Sonic Drive-In?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was in Amarillo, TX back in 1981 and was driving my 69 Vette. I came up to the driveway of the local Sonic. It was made on an incline. As I pulled in, both rear tires broke loose on the smooth concrete and it made a little squeal. I didn't think anything about it. I pulled into a stall and was getting ready to order when a cop car pulled in beside me. He got out, walked over to my car and asked for my driver's license. When I asked him what was going on, he told me that I was being cited for "exhibition of acceleration." I really think it was more about giving an OKIE in Texas a ticket. He gave me my ticket and left the area. After I ate, I pulled into the street and burned off about 100 feet of rubber before letting up off of the gas. Too bad the cop didn't see that.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I don't make you use the drugs, I mean tubes, I'm just sellin' you something, you know what I'm sayin'? If you want to use them to blow your shit up, that's your call not mine.





If it won't add too much to the price, go ahead and put one in is what I guess I'm trying to say


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was in Amarillo, TX back in 1981 and was driving my 69 Vette. I came up to the driveway of the local Sonic. It was made on an incline. As I pulled in, both rear tires broke loose on the smooth concrete and it made a little squeal. I didn't think anything about it. I pulled into a stall and was getting ready to order when a cop car pulled in beside me. He got out, walked over to my car and asked for my driver's license. When I asked him what was going on, he told me that I was being cited for "exhibition of acceleration." I really think it was more about giving an OKIE in Texas a ticket. He gave me my ticket and left the area. After I ate, I pulled into the street and burned off about 100 feet of rubber before letting up off of the gas. Too bad the cop didn't see that.



Nice FU to that write-up happy POPO!

Back in high school we use to cruise the loop here in search of tail and racing. Back then I had a 72 Lemans just like the one below same color and my first car. 

Anyways I was first at a stop light and checking some HS tail out at the local Sizzlers parking lot. Had my bud Marvin sit'n co-pilot. Well I got the urge to show off a bit and smoke the tires when the light hit green. Soon as it changed I floored it smoking the tires and getting quite the reaction over in the parking lot. That reaction was from the fact that I just lit my tires up with a "Stater" right next to me that had been waiting in the other lane for the same light to change.

Yeah...I turned a bit red. He asked me if there was a problem with my foot slipping off the clutch and smashing the accelerator pedal.LOL Got a ticket for "noise infraction". Cop turned out to be cooler than most considering I lit them up right next to him. He could tell I just hadn't seen him and was not being disrespectful, just an idiot! My buddy could not believe I didn't know he was there cause I yelled at him for not telling me...after all he was the co-pilot responsible for making known such discoveries...


----------



## MartyStrat54

How embarasking!

I got drunk in my 1975 Monte Carlo and let my buddy drive. I was plastered as I was having a great time mooning people from the "moon roof." Well, I must have been out of my mind when I "mooned" a state trooper. Yeah, he pulled us over and "No," I did not get a ticket. Oh the good old days when someone could take a joke. It did help that my friend was sober.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> How embarasking!
> 
> I got drunk in my 1975 Monte Carlo and let my buddy drive. I was plastered as I was having a great time mooning people from the "moon roof." Well, I must have been out of my mind when I "mooned" a state trooper. Yeah, he pulled us over and "No," I did not get a ticket. Oh the good old days when someone could take a joke. It did help that my friend was sober.



Hahaha! A sense of humor in a cop sure helps us poor fello's out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got that right. If it had been any other cop, my "ass" would have been put in jail.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see that a female has joined the forum by the name of Summer. I hope she can handle all of the drama. (And the Boobs thread.)


----------



## solarburn

Oh boy...man I hope she can hang. There are a lot of cool peeps here so lets hope she runs into em'.

Our beloved gurr threads...Mmmm


----------



## solarburn

You sure she's female...?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's what I believe. Not to many guys with the name, Summer.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that's what I believe. Not to many guys with the name, Summer.



I'm with ya but I hope its not some bastid mess'n about!


----------



## brp

Smells like spambot


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I just realized that last night I was at 14,998 posts. Now I am at 15,011.

I'll keep the partying low keyed. 

I'm sort of proud that a good percentage of these posts are me helping others and not a bunch of trivial bullshit. 

I hope I have helped some here.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Smells like spambot



Or worse. I'm suspicious of anyone claiming to be female in a forum that's typically all male. I knew a dude, kind of an uptight sax player, who was a woman on the internet. Actually, he was both partners in a married swinging couple. I don't engage women in coversation on the internet.


----------



## MM54




----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Or worse. I'm suspicious of anyone claiming to be female in a forum that's typically all male. I knew a dude, kind of an uptight sax player, who was a woman on the internet. Actually, he was both partners in a married swinging couple. I don't engage women in conversation on the internet.



Well I guess you could say he knew what his wife was thinking.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lately I have been getting those silly IM's on AOL saying, "ShortnSassy17 is online."

They are all computer generated and will eventually direct you to a porn site. 

I typed in, "Go fuck yourself." Then I got a response that said, "I'm all alone. Do you like a big ass?"

So no matter what you type, you are going to get a generic response. Again, to get you linked to a pay porn site.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been getting spam email from somebody I know who obviously has a virus. There are always the same two email addresses that they come from:

ThorkelDaff51@ymail.com
InnogenMarkovsky53@ymail.com

I can't even figure out who they are coming from by the headers. How do I get rid of this shite?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I guess you could say he knew what his wife was thinking.


----------



## RiverRatt

So nobody is going to say anything about the cool Enfield rifle? Did I get to the gun party late?


----------



## solarburn

Those 50 cals are brutal. Some of the shit I've seen them do on vids makes me wish I hadn't..but sheer brutal force...man. Its fun to see the non-living targets explode from impact.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I've been getting spam email from somebody I know who obviously has a virus. There are always the same two email addresses that they come from:
> 
> ThorkelDaff51@ymail.com
> InnogenMarkovsky53@ymail.com
> 
> I can't even figure out who they are coming from by the headers. How do I get rid of this shite?




Coincidentally, after I read this post, I checked my hotmail, went to mark a phishing scam and noticed that they have a new option under the "mark as" menu.
You can now mark emails "my friend's been hacked!". Must be happening alot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-The rifle looked good, but I am not into many British WWII arms. I like the US and USSR stuff. The 303 had a really poor trajectory. Sort of like when the American government was using the 30/40 Krag. It was flat out to about 100 yards and then dropped like a rock.

I like 7.62 X 54 Russian and .308 or 30.06 American stuff. I would love to have an original M-16 chambered in .308, but they are around $20G's. (That's for a fully auto.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just looked at the rifle again. Is it a 300 MAG? If so, what type of 300 MAG. There are several to choose from.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-The rifle looked good, but I am not into many British WWII arms. I like the US and USSR stuff. The 303 had a really poor trajectory. Sort of like when the American government was using the 30/40 Krag. It was flat out to about 100 yards and then dropped like a rock.
> 
> I like 7.62 X 54 Russian and .308 or 30.06 American stuff. I would love to have an original M-16 chambered in .308, but they are around $20G's. (That's for a fully auto.)



+1 for the old soviet guns 

I have a 1938 Mosin/Nagant in 7.62x54R (which stands for rimmed, not Russian, which is a common misconception ) and the thing kicks absolute ass


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I just looked at the rifle again. Is it a 300 MAG? If so, what type of 300 MAG. There are several to choose from.



That's all it said on the tag. 100 yards is enough for deer hunting around here. Usually you're in the woods in heavy cover and 100+ yard shots just don't happen that often. We don't see that many bucks out in the open during deer season.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> +1 for the old soviet guns
> 
> I have a 1938 Mosin/Nagant in 7.62x54R (which stands for rimmed, not Russian, which is a common misconception ) and the thing kicks absolute ass



Yes I knew that the 54R meant rimmed. I was going to put it down that way, but I figured that I would just go with the country of origin so that the other members would know where it came from. I should have realized a slick Willie like you would tell me that the "R" stood for "rimmed."

You don't collect for as long as I have and not know what the ammo is called. Right now, I still have three, Mosin/Nagant's. They kick like a mule and the metal butt plate just makes it worse. Does yours have the bayonet?


----------



## sccloser

I used to like to shoot the Enfields in "speed shoots." We used to have competitions where we had limited time to get off shots with military firearms that were considered C&R. There was a bolt action and a semi class. Enfields were popular in the bolt class because it is easier to shoot them quickly as they cock as you close the bolt, as opposed to the US, German and USSR weapons that generally cock on opening the bolt. 

I found the Enfields to be pretty accurate, but I never shot them over 100 yds. I don't really like the feel of the cock on close bolt. I prefer the smooth, controlled feed of a mauser. I used to be one of the top mauser shooters in the GA/SC/NC region for several years.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I saw those photos you posted. I could tell you were into the sport. You had a bunch of Mauser's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the Enfields, too. I thought the 300 was a nice looking gun.

I posted something back in the summer about this guy who sells stereo equipment in a little antique mall saying he had a box of tubes in storage. I checked with him almost every week since then and he never had a chance to look for them. Well, this week he had them. A big box, about 24"x24"x12". I was thinking I'd hit the jackpot, until I opened the box. It was full of projector lamps. Every kind you could imagine. 

He does have a Carver TFM-15 power amp that I'm eyeing closely. I'd love to put it and a couple of good studio monitors in my music room to run my computer through.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody here see or buy the Matsushita D getter 12AX7 on eBay today? It went for $34.33.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All I can say is, "Why?"


----------



## solarburn

Well...it wasn't me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Somebody must have wanted one really bad. My guess it was going to be used in a guitar amp as most HiFi buyers are looking for matched pairs.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> All I can say is, "Why?"



Well, I bid on it, but I was only in it for $15. They are long plate tubes and they are a Philips tube. I'm not going to call them a Japanese Mullard but a good strong one sounds really nice. It's the classic Philips sound, maybe a little more hairy than a Mullard in a good way. IMO they sound their best in a fairly clean and loud amp. You really get a nice, thick crunch with them. They are way better than the slant getter tubes. I've never seen a long plate Matsushita that had a date stamp past 1959.


----------



## solarburn

A hairy Mullard!

I've got one...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> A hairy Mullard!
> 
> I've got one...



Yeah, if I remember correctly you liked it so much that you sent me a nice RFT in exchange.


----------



## solarburn

It was worth it. It does not sound the same as the slant getters. I've got a couple of those too. Its unique and great in the right Marshall's V1...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I'm familiar with them and know that you like them, but $35 for one of them is sort of high as far as I am concerned. 

Didn't I give away some of these? 

I know that I sold a bunch to a guy in Kansas City. When I was looking for the Mazda, I found some more of them. I put them in with my main inventory. It's just hard to sell one as a V1. The customer is always looking for something more exotic.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh I'm familiar with them and know that you like them, but $35 for one of them is sort of high as far as I am concerned.
> 
> Didn't I give away some of these?
> 
> I know that I sold a bunch to a guy in Kansas City. When I was looking for the Mazda, I found some more of them. I put them in with my main inventory. It's just hard to sell one as a V1. The customer is always looking for something more exotic.



Man I didn't know you had some. I would have bought a couple off ya. Sheesh!

By the way have you found that Mazda yet? How did it sound anyways...


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> You don't collect for as long as I have and not know what the ammo is called. Right now, I still have three, Mosin/Nagant's. They kick like a mule and the metal butt plate just makes it worse. Does yours have the bayonet?



Indeed, I have the original strap (well, it's as old as the gun, no way to know if it's original to that particual gun #) and the awesome bayonet, the gun's just HUGE when you put it on 

Don't remind me about that metal buttplate, my shoulder doesn't like it much after a day at the range


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I'm not arguing with you. I couldn't believe that it went that high. Still, it's a good tube. I've been happy with the ones I've had.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is this thing on? Hello? Check 1, Check 1.


----------



## MM54

Hello


----------



## RiverRatt

I was beginning to wonder...


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been rolling some power tubes. It's nice being able to put any tube in the caddy in the Tweaker. I put some pristine NOS RCA-branded 5881's in it and with the Tele it sounded huge. They are 1950's Tung-Sols. They have a slightly darker brown base than usual, but they are the real deal. These are the best pair of 5881's that I've used. I've got a bunch of other stuff I need to run through that thing. Anybody got a pair of 6CA7's for trade?


----------



## MM54

Rolling power tubes is awesome, one of the highlights of the CA10


----------



## brp

I just got back from Bellingham. You know what I love about the USA? All you can eat buffets. We don't have that shit around here anymore. Well there's one place but it's 2.5 times the price per plate of the ones in the states.
I ate too much though. But it saved me a ton of cash when I went grocery shopping after. 

Also, 24 ounce 10.5% alcohol can of "beer" for $1.48 at Fred Meyer WTF?!  That's crazy!


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Also, 24 ounce 10.5% alcohol can of "beer" for $1.48 at Fred Meyer WTF?!  That's crazy!



I don't think we have those around here. We call anything 10.5% wine. Some of it is even made from grapes.


----------



## brp

Haha
This was it. They actually do call it beer.





It was a dollar fucking forty eight! for 24 oz.
I shudder to think what it tastes like.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm thinking fortified Steel Reserve. That's one of our brands down here. It's about interchangeable with Busch or Foster's, with maybe a little Schlitz Malt Liquor aftertaste. Fumes guaranteed to be picked up by a State Trooper at 10 feet. It's strong, though. It usually comes in cans, and you have the usual selection of 12 oz, 24 oz. or the ever-popular Forty in a brown paper sack.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Highest Alcohol Percentage Beers - Statistics :: Beer Reviews and Information

How's 41 percent alcohol by volume?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's great for polishing furniture as well.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Highest Alcohol Percentage Beers - Statistics :: Beer Reviews and Information
> 
> How's 41 percent alcohol by volume?



HAHA wtf that's not even right!

Leave it to the Scots.

How can that even be called beer?

Gotta love the description:
"it is important you that you be careful with this beer and show it the same amount of sceptical, tentative respect you would show an international chess superstar, clown or gypsy"


----------



## Lowlife

I've been following the Brewdog company since they released the tactical nuclear penguin...they have great humour and make really nice "normal'ish" beer, besides the insane projects they tend to throw themselves at.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Adwex likes the Dogfish. That stuff is pretty strong too.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a six pack of Guiness Stout tonight. I should have gone with Beck's dark like I started to or gotten some Lager and made Black and Tans. Stout sounded so good at the store but I don't think it was what I was looking for. I like the German beers in cold weather.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm going to make a St. Joe beer run on Wednesday. Gonna get some brewski for the big bird affair at my sisters.


----------



## 61rocker

I like Heinekens or Bass Ale....ever since I went to Europe, I have not been able to drink most domestics....I've settled on these two in my later years....A good fresh Bass Ale on Tap is a Beautiful Thing....It is said of me...."He once kicked the Dos Equis guy's ass so hard, he wore it for earmuffs for two consecutive winters...."


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went on a temporary military duty to Cyprus and was stationed on a British Air Force base. I got use to drinking all of those heavy British beers for six months. When I came back Stateside, I couldn't stand American beer. I'm serious, I could drink a case of Coor's by myself and not be drunk. Ever since then, I drink imports and craft beer. Bud, Coor's and Miller is just goat piss.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went on a temporary military duty to Cyprus and was stationed on a British Air Force base. I got use to drinking all of those heavy British beers for six months. When I came back Stateside, I couldn't stand American beer. I'm serious, I could drink a case of Coor's by myself and not be drunk. Ever since then, I drink imports and craft beer. Bud, Coor's and Miller is just goat piss.



I'm pretty much the same way. There are some full-bodied American and Mexican beers that I like. We don't have much access to craft brews around here. There used to be a great place in the Wolfchase area of Memphis that had beers from all over the world, and 90% were from small breweries. It closed a couple of years ago. I can't remember the name of the place now. They would give you an empty six-pack holder and let you mix and match. I always wanted to try Holy Grail Ale but never got the chance.


----------



## 61rocker

I remember the first nite I went out after getting back from Switzerland.....my friends hands me a Micholeob (I can't even spell it) and I nearly spit it out.....That place that used to be in Wolfchase sounds cool....gonna check out to see if there is another place like that.....


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> I drink imports and craft beer. Bud, Coor's and Miller is just goat piss.




Indeed!
I'm Canadian but still not much of a fan of our domestics anymore.
I'm an ale man when I drink beer, which isn't often these days.

I do enjoy a snifter of port at christmas (Homer quote FTW)

I like Heineken. Guiness is good too. LOTS of craft beer around here.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> I remember the first nite I went out after getting back from Switzerland.....my friends hands me a Micholeob (I can't even spell it) and I nearly spit it out.....That place that used to be in Wolfchase sounds cool....gonna check out to see if there is another place like that.....



It was called World Market or something like that. They had a huge selection of beers. It used to be at the corner of Germantown Pkwy and Wolf Creek Pkwy, on the corner across from Best Buy. It's been gone for several years.

Edit: If you go to Google Maps street level you can see it. It was called World Market. Apparently Google hasn't updated their street level maps in awhile.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was a place like that in Phoenix. Liquor World or something like that. It was huge. I mean it was as big as some big box stores. This was the place that I would hit in October. They had five gallon kegs from Germany of Oktoberfest beers. They also sold one gallon mini kegs. Each keg came with a "kit." The kit was necessary to get the keg to pour. Those were some good old days. There were two of these stores in Phoenix and one of them was about 5 miles from my house.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MM54 said:


> Indeed, I have the original strap (well, it's as old as the gun, no way to know if it's original to that particual gun #) and the awesome bayonet, the gun's just HUGE when you put it on
> 
> Don't remind me about that metal buttplate, my shoulder doesn't like it much after a day at the range



Out of everything I have (including 3-inch MAG 12 Gauge and .338 WIN Mag), the Mosin kicked the hardest. I would have hated to use it in a wartime situation.

At the range, I would shoot it five times and call it good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a 7mm Remington Magnum rifle that was a great shooting gun but it would kick the shit out of you. Me and a friend were out shooting one day (fenceposts at 200 yards) and he thought he was the best shot around. I handed him my rifle and he put his cheek on the stock and his eye right up on the scope. I just stood back and waited for the inevitable. He went around with a half-moon scar around his right eye for weeks. I didn't laugh too much


----------



## MartyStrat54

When you buy a scope for a magnum, you want at least 4.5 inches of focal relief. 

You were a mean son of a bitch to let him take it in the eye like that. By the time I was 14, I would have been smarter than that. My 338 WIN Mag has a scope with 5 inches of relief. You have to prepare yourself to shoot that gun. I guess that's why for deer, I like my Marlin 45.70 with iron sights. At 100 yards, it is perfect taking a shot through an area with thick underbrush. That bullet will go through small branches and still hit the target. I use the Hornady 325 grain FTX LEVERevolution® ammo. For fun, I shoot the 600 grain lead cowboy rounds. At fifty yards, they'll knock a bull to the ground. You can also reload a 45.70 to where it is damn near as powerful as a 458 WIN Mag at 100 yards.

I'd like to get a 450 Marlin Guide Gun, but they and the ammo are costly. Hell, the ammo for the 45.70 is over $40 a box. I went to the big gun show in Oklahoma and got a couple of boxes of American made 7.62 X 54R and that was high dollar. I bought it for my sniper rifle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like the tube conversation has came to a grinding halt over here. That's too bad. 

Well brp should get his tubes soon.


----------



## brp

And I can't wait.
I'll let you all know when they all get here and how they're sounding for me.
Should get the Sittards first and fairly soon.
Sometimes there's a bit of a back up/wait for Canada Customs to get to things. Hopefully everything's here by the end of the week or early next.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You were a mean son of a bitch to let him take it in the eye like that. By the time I was 14, I would have been smarter than that.



I do have a mean streak at times, plus, he was an arrogant son of a bitch. It hurt his pride more than anything. He learned an important lesson that day and I'll bet he never repeated that mistake.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Looks like the tube conversation has came to a grinding halt over here. That's too bad.
> 
> Well brp should get his tubes soon.


 
Guitars, Beer, and Firearms thread.....
I got that '58 RCA today, but I haven't tested it.....nice looking long black plates, guessing the 17mm, there longer than my other RCAs....I won a Mullard for $4.00 from a reputable ebayer and I bought a vintage Tesla E34L that looks like the missing one from my set....Ruby Branded, same codes on back...I'll take that to my tech to see if it matches up....


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Out of everything I have (including 3-inch MAG 12 Gauge and .338 WIN Mag), the Mosin kicked the hardest. I would have hated to use it in a wartime situation.
> 
> At the range, I would shoot it five times and call it good.



A Mosin's kick is relative to what you are used to shooting. Try a 8mm k98...that is worse IMO. Also, I have always thought that a Springfield 1903 firing the 30-06 was the hardest kicking rifle that I fired on a regular basis. I used to fire 150 rounds per match, so I am very familiar with the kick of these old military bolt action rifles with the steel butt plates. I began wearing a recoil pad on my right shoulder the last couple of years I shot in competitions. Due to shoulder injuries, not related to shooting BTW, I have not fired a shot in competition in about 3 years. Not sure if I could take it for very long these days.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I had a 7mm Remington Magnum rifle that was a great shooting gun but it would kick the shit out of you. Me and a friend were out shooting one day (fenceposts at 200 yards) and he thought he was the best shot around. I handed him my rifle and he put his cheek on the stock and his eye right up on the scope. I just stood back and waited for the inevitable. He went around with a half-moon scar around his right eye for weeks. I didn't laugh too much



Yeah, I also had one of those once. Very hard kicking rifle but it was pretty accurate. Those are really too big for the deer we have around here, unless you are hunting over fields that offer you an opportunity for 200 yd shots. I found that a 270 is about perfect for hunting deer in SC.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Looks like the tube conversation has came to a grinding halt over here. That's too bad.
> 
> Well brp should get his tubes soon.



I've been stopping in to read. haven't had much time to comment...of course there has not been a lot to comment on either.

Been practicing hard with the band...we have two shows coming up within the next 9 days.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Guys.

Haven't dropped in for a while, just wanted to say Hi and Happy Thanksgiving! 

Finally got all the tubes collected and I'm going to try and get that Heath Kit AA 100 working over the holiday. 

Hope you all have a happy and safe one!


----------



## 61rocker

+1 Rawkers....HAPPY THANKSGIVING to my MF friends.....Thx for all the advice.....(noooo, Marshall Forum...getcha' mind outta the gutta).....


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Guys.
> 
> Haven't dropped in for a while, just wanted to say Hi and Happy Thanksgiving!
> 
> Finally got all the tubes collected and I'm going to try and get that Heath Kit AA 100 working over the holiday.
> 
> Hope you all have a happy and safe one!



Good luck on the Heath Kit and you and the family have a great Thanx Giving Scott!


----------



## solarburn

Have a good Turkey Day everyone!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, Joe. Ours started a day early with the in-laws coming in from Little Rock. We did the Thanksgiving dinner thing tonight. I showed amazing restraint and I'm still too full to move. We'll have to go to my parents' house tomorrow and do it again, then go over to my mother-in-law's house and eat leftovers from tonight. I'll be very glad to get back to work on Friday.

I wish some of these people served alcohol. That would make the whole thing much more bearable.


----------



## solarburn

We get started tomorrow down at my mom's. I'm off for 4 days! Plenty of time to recover from all dat good food hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We get started tomorrow down at my mom's. I'm off for 4 days! Plenty of time to recover from all dat good food hehe.



We're going to work Friday morning and staying until we get November's bills in the mail. That's going to be a very laid-back day.

I know it won't take long. Two of the 3-person crew will be wanting to go home early and watch the LSU-Arkansas game and we are the ones who write the checks. It's a pretty big game around here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll be amazed if Arkansas can defeat LSU. Not saying that they can't, but LSU is for real.


----------



## RiverRatt

There have already been some amazing upsets in Division 1-A, especially in the last two weeks.

My old high school team, one of two teams in the county our newspaper serves, is one game away from the state championship. My sister has a son on that team. I've been to a couple of their games and if they continue to play at the level they were at last week, they have a good chance at making it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll be amazed if Arkansas can defeat LSU. Not saying that they can't, but LSU is for real.



By the way, the best thing LSU has going for it is defensive coach John Chavis. Alabama has a damned good team this year, too, and LSU handled them like nobody has this season. Their defense is what is winning games.


----------



## 61rocker

If we....Razorbacks... can protect our QB, I think we can exploit their secondary...Go Hogs....if not, it could be a long day...one thing's for sure Patrino will have done his homework, he's one of the top 5 offensive minds in the county....


----------



## RiverRatt

Like I said, we had in-laws here from Little Rock. They were all wearing Razorback gear. My wife's brother-in-law is an accountant who graduated from Arkansas. They visit their poor country cousins 3 or 4 days a year. I'm sure the reason they came in a day early was so they could be tailgating on Friday. I don't really have a dog in the hunt, so I'm probably going to be pulling for whoever is losing just so I'll feel right. 

Tennessee's overtime win over Vandy was pretty suspect. The call was bad, but the play was whistled dead so it shouldn't have been reviewed. After seeing how bad they blew the call, the officials probably did that so they could get out of Knoxville alive. I was pulling for the boys in orange, but I looked at my son and said "did you hear a whistle?" at about the time of the interception. And the knee never touched the ground. What do you do?


----------



## audiochains

Hey guys, any suggestions to replace my 6100's pretubes? ATM I got a mix of JJ's and TAD's in there. For the sound I'm after well we play eighties style hard rock / melodic metal, if that makes any difference. Oh and I mostly stay on channel 2 really.


----------



## craiguitar

Now we don't have 'thanksgiving' here in the UK, although the hoardes of immigrants being let through our borders on a daily basis are no doubt very thankful indeed. Anyway, I am at least thankful that my buddy sold his amp, because he gave me his original mullard preamp tubes that he no longer needs. So, maybe I will give them a try in my TSL60. There's nothing wrong with the Electro-Harmonix ones that are in the amp already, so will putting these in make any sort of difference or am I wasting my time? Yes different ones make it sound different, and these old 12AX7's are quite sought after, but why?, are they really better? I realise It's a matter of indiviual taste, Guess I'll find out for myself. I'll report back if I get a 'Whoa!' or a 'Meh!' moment.


----------



## Lowlife

craiguitar said:


> Now we don't have 'thanksgiving' here in the UK, although the hoardes of immigrants being let through our borders on a daily basis are no doubt very thankful indeed. Anyway, I am at least thankful that my buddy sold his amp, because he gave me his original mullard preamp tubes that he no longer needs. So, maybe I will give them a try in my TSL60. There's nothing wrong with the Electro-Harmonix ones that are in the amp already, so will putting these in make any sort of difference or am I wasting my time? Yes different ones make it sound different, and these old 12AX7's are quite sought after, but why?, are they really better? I realise It's a matter of indiviual taste, Guess I'll find out for myself. I'll report back if I get a 'Whoa!' or a 'Meh!' moment.



If they have life left in them they should give you a "whoa" experience. CP tubes just aren't as interesting tonally as the NOS ones. I actually rather like the CP tungsol, but I've tried JJ's and EH as well, finding them decent workhorses but not adding much sparkle to the tone.

I use NOS in V1 of my amp only, the other 2 are JJ's, as changing them only affects the sound in a teeeny tiny way...Which is the way the DR4100's function I am told.

edit. happy thanksgiving to those that celebrate that.


----------



## craiguitar

Lowlife said:


> If they have life left in them they should give you a "whoa" experience. CP tubes just aren't as interesting tonally as the NOS ones. I actually rather like the CP tungsol, but I've tried JJ's and EH as well, finding them decent workhorses but not adding much sparkle to the tone.
> 
> I use NOS in V1 of my amp only, the other 2 are JJ's, as changing them only affects the sound in a teeeny tiny way...Which is the way the DR4100's function I am told.
> 
> edit. happy thanksgiving to those that celebrate that.


 
Okay, done it. You are right, putting the mullard in V1 makes the most difference. Not enough for a 'Whoa!' but a pleasing change. More punch/immediacy and possibly more sustain if I'm not mistaken. I preferred my EH and Mesa ones in the other positions though. It's all incredibly subtle though, not the sort of thing you'd notice during a gig anyway.

Incidentally, I have a question. I still have 2 of the original marshall preamp tubes from my TSL. The other 2 went bad. The remaining ones are labelled 00041 and 00035-15. Is one of them from the phase inverter position (V4)?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you are thinking that a phase inverter tube needs to be 'balanced" that is untrue. Most of us like to run high gain, lopsided tubes in the PI.

Also, some amps will roll tubes better than others. Some amps it is hard to hear the tonal changes, but other amps will produce a bigger change. My JMP loves to roll the V1 spot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

audiochains said:


> Hey guys, any suggestions to replace my 6100's pretubes? ATM I got a mix of JJ's and TAD's in there. For the sound I'm after well we play eighties style hard rock / melodic metal, if that makes any difference. Oh and I mostly stay on channel 2 really.



Here is my recommendation using current production tubes.

V1-TAD 7025S Low Noise for Clean Channel or JJ ECC803S
V2-Tung-Sol (V2A Lead/V2B Crunch)
V3-Mullard RI High Gain (may like it better in V5. Personal taste.)
V4-Tung-Sol
V5-Mullard RI (Again, try this is V3 or V5)
V6-Mullard RI High Gain
V7-EH


----------



## audiochains

Hey thx Marty!

And to be just a little more difficult, where could I get my hands on Mullard RIs? I mean the 2 shops here in Finland that I know of doesn't carry them at the moment, or at least I think so. Tubeampdoctor seems to have at least a few Mullards but oh well :-D any suggestions?


----------



## Lowlife

audiochains said:


> Hey thx Marty!
> 
> And to be just a little more difficult, where could I get my hands on Mullard RIs? I mean the 2 shops here in Finland that I know of doesn't carry them at the moment, or at least I think so. Tubeampdoctor seems to have at least a few Mullards but oh well :-D any suggestions?



Whatever you chose make sure to do it from INSIDE the EU, or you risk a hefty bonus tax. Try tubetown.de, or some of the other well assorted webshops around dedicated to tube selling (there is at least one more in germany, cant remember the name, i always use Tubetown, but they might not have what you need).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Remember this guy? He's back. Someone was asking about a Siemens and two Philips tubes for use in a DSL and this was his response. I'm thinking he has some sort of learning disorder, because he keeps insisting that "ECC" is only a British term.



darkhorse said:


> Basically the same tube. Tubes other than preamp stage are usually not 12AX7 types. 12Ax7 are high gain signal preamp tubes usually used to cascade and build distortion gain. ECC83 is usually called the British labeled 12AX7, basically the same tube. I am sure that tube guy will be along to castigate me on the magical mystery tour of all things tube names. Its the amp not so much the tubes, some tubes are made better and have less problems but overtones and drastic differences, not so much. Paying more for ECC83s over new reissued 12AX7s like Tung Sol is not going to make any difference really.



I think he is referring to me in this post. Oh well, I knew I was popular. Just a thought, maybe he works for New Sensor.


----------



## MartyStrat54

audiochains said:


> Hey thx Marty!
> 
> And to be just a little more difficult, where could I get my hands on Mullard RIs? I mean the 2 shops here in Finland that I know of doesn't carry them at the moment, or at least I think so. Tubeampdoctor seems to have at least a few Mullards but oh well :-D any suggestions?





> Whatever you chose make sure to do it from INSIDE the EU, or you risk a hefty bonus tax. Try tubetown.de, or some of the other well assorted webshops around dedicated to tube selling (there is at least one more in germany, cant remember the name, i always use Tubetown, but they might not have what you need).



Audiochains-I have no control over what tubes are available in your country. The Tube Store and The Tube Depot both offer worldwide shipping and they both carry the Mullard RI. However, Lowlife brings to light a good point. You might have to make a compromise on the tubes depending on what is feasible in your area.

I went to Tube Town and they don't have a real good selection and they also add a 19 percent tax and shipping costs. 

If you can post the name of the tube store you want to buy from and if they have a website, I will take a look and make a recommendation.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Darkhorse posted over here as well and responded to sccloser and myself.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/34061-eq-response-different-tube-question.html


----------



## carrots

My DSL 50 always had a good sound.. But now, Let me tell you. Its amazingly great. Three dimensional sound. 
The range of sound available is endless.. from bright to dark with clarity or compressed.. note deffinition is spanken. 

These are the culprits!




Thanks Marty!

carrots

PS: I did some homework before buying the tubes. Marty confirmed my thoughts.

Darkhorse, are you really a guitar player? Your posts about preamps tubes are flip flop, unimformed verbal gymnastics.
Thank you in advance for not offering me tube advice going forward.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Remember this guy? He's back. Someone was asking about a Siemens and two Philips tubes for use in a DSL and this was his response. I'm thinking he has some sort of learning disorder, because he keeps insisting that "ECC" is only a British term.
> 
> 
> 
> I think he is referring to me in this post. Oh well, I knew I was popular. Just a thought, maybe he works for New Sensor.



With some people, a little bit of knowledge is a bad thing. In this case a very little bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He probably has his amp loaded with Japanese Mullards.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Remember this guy? He's back. Someone was asking about a Siemens and two Philips tubes for use in a DSL and this was his response. I'm thinking he has some sort of learning disorder, because he keeps insisting that "ECC" is only a British term.
> 
> 
> 
> I think he is referring to me in this post. Oh well, I knew I was popular. Just a thought, maybe he works for New Sensor.



I get the impression he thinks the ECC designation is relegated to NOS too...


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Darkhorse posted over here as well and responded to sccloser and myself.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/34061-eq-response-different-tube-question.html



Countered


----------



## MartyStrat54

>>>


> Hello fellow tube-a-holic's. Darkfart here. I wanted to tell you that I am sorry for being such a tool. My recent posts contain erroneous information. Thanks to all of you who felt the need to correct me.
> 
> And Solar, the ECC83 is the British term for a 12AX7. Most people do not know this. I wanted to let you in on this in case you are ever asked to tell what ECC means. If I recall, ECC stands for Electronic Cathode Collector. I'm almost sure of that.
> 
> And Marshall Mann. You really know how to rub a nose in the dirt...eh? Okay, so I don't know as much about tubes as I want people to believe, but why would I let this stop me from spewing out misinformation? I have fun doing it. You take the fun out of it. Please stop. BTW-I have some Sovteks that are just as good as anything you have. The amp is responsible for how it sounds, not the tubes.
> 
> MartyStrat54-You sir are a punk. I came on the forum as a new member and right away you felt the need to correct my every post. I have to ask you, how many people know that an ECC83 is the British term for a 12AX7? Many don't and I am assuming you are one of them. You can take your tube rolling and stuff it. There is no need to buy NOS tubes. They have nothing to offer to the amp. I have a DSL with all Sovtek's and it has a sweet cardboard-like tone. I happen to like cardboard. Stuff it Stratman!
> 
> RiverRatt-So you felt a need to join in and ridicule me and egg others on to do the same. I know more about tubes on my whole hand than you do on your little finger. (Did I say that right?) You are another one of those tube rolling jokers that think a ribbed Telefunken is better than a JJ. Get off of yer high horse fellar.
> 
> Darkfart over and out.


----------



## carrots

Darkfarts always leave a mark. It can be washed away but the stink always lingers.


----------



## mickeydg5

Sweet cardboard tone??? Is that like Fiber One?
I like my tone crunchy, even in milk. Captain Crunch all the way!


----------



## carrots

mickeydg5 said:


> Sweet cardboard tone??? Is that like Fiber One?
> I like my tone crunchy, even in milk. Captain Crunch all the way!


 
Why yes mickey... Fiber one Leads to many darkfarts. If you add peanuts it does get rather crunchy doesn't it. Captain crunch will add some hot air to the mix for sure.


----------



## solarburn

Alrightee then...


----------



## mickeydg5

I did not even think of that tie in, fiber and farts. Funny man.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> >>>


----------



## MM54




----------



## brp

Well, no tubes for me this week.
Probably busy this time of year at the Customs office.

Plus, you know, government work...


----------



## RiverRatt

You're still waiting on those tubes? I had no idea it would take so long.


----------



## brp

Ya, well, I thought the Sittards would be a little quicker but not surprised that Marty's stuff is taking this long considering that they have much farther to go. I imagine the Sittards have been sitting at the Customs office waiting to be processed, they probably were to the border within a couple of days, although probably had to go to a central distributing plant from where Joe sent them from. I'd be surprised if they don't come Monday/Tuesday. 
I've ordered a few things from California and from there it usually takes 2 weeks to get to me but only a couple of days to get to the border (via tracking #). Canada Customs is not known for expedience.


----------



## solarburn

I thought it may take some time because of all that. I just didn't know how much...


----------



## brp

1000th Post!

Had to do it in this thread so I could get on to other posting.


----------



## rjtm

Nice!


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Countered


+1


----------



## sccloser

Darkfart said:


> Darkfart here again...I forgot to mention that idiot sccloser. He keeps harping on me about factual inaccuracies. Idiot doesn't know that all facts are opinions! I will continue to not address his challenges to me and spew out more inaccuracies in hopes of confusing him and wearing him down. You all need to stop all of this criticizing me. I know what I am posting about. You guys all suck and are LOSERS! Look, I did not want to have to pull rank on you guys, but I worked in the tube industry 85 years ago and I can tell you that all tubes are the same. The different names and numbers are just all marketing hype that you capitalist pigs fall for every time. That's right, so now you know. Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!



How could I ever have doubted him?


----------



## sccloser

brp said:


> 1000th Post!
> 
> Had to do it in this thread so I could get on to other posting.



Congrats!


----------



## mickeydg5

Ah, I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!


----------



## Marshall Mann

mickeydg5 said:


> Ah, I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!



Now go ayway, before I taunt you a second time-ah!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I mailed your tubes out on 11/16/2011. Wow! That's slow man. I was thinking you would have them by Friday. I don't know about Alan, but I sent the tubes as a gift and gave them a low value.

When I mail to Joe's place, it only takes three or four days most of the time. That means that Customs has had them all this time. Good grief!


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> 1000th Post!
> 
> Had to do it in this thread so I could get on to other posting.





*Glad to have you. I enjoy your comments.*


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I mailed your tubes out on 11/16/2011. Wow! That's slow man. I was thinking you would have them by Friday. I don't know about Alan, but I sent the tubes as a gift and gave them a low value.
> 
> When I mail to Joe's place, it only takes three or four days most of the time. That means that Customs has had them all this time. Good grief!



I mailed Alan's cause I had them when the sale was all figured out. I'm right next door to Canada! Yeah its customs taking their sweet time. They better not be exchanging them...


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> 1000th Post!
> 
> Had to do it in this thread so I could get on to other posting.



A big BELCH(after the shot)for the brp!


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> I mailed your tubes out on 11/16/2011.



That's only 7 business days ago though, not that long for Customs clearance in my experience.

I think Joe was also the 16th, again, not alot of time for Customs.
Like I said, through tracking, I've seen things go from Cali to "at depot awaiting Customs clearance" in 2 days but then take another 10-12 days to be delivered.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I mailed Alan's cause I had them when the sale was all figured out. I'm right next door to Canada! Yeah its customs taking their sweet time. They better not be exchanging them...



Yeah that's right. I knew that. Just had an old man brain fart.

What if there are tube rollers working for customs? Oh no. They'll be robbing brp of his goodies.

I sold twice to Clammy and he got them really quick. I know he is from Ottawa, Ontario, but I really don't understand the big delay. Let me tell you about my British customers. They usually get their tubes in about 8 days and the postage service in Britain is supposed to be poor.

Now I see why so many Canadians get a US mail box at a US Post Office. I had some problems with a Canadian customer in regard to some VOX speakers. I found out that he had a US mail box. It was funny. The US town that was on the border was small, but the post office was huge, because it rented out so many boxes to Canadians. He was from B.C. as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I fart in your general direction.



My wife bought me a t-shirt with that on it along with a picture of the French knight. Only one person so far has gotten it.

Knights, I bid you welcome to your new home. Let us ride to Camelot!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luVjkTEIoJc]Star Trek Meets Monty Python - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## brp

Ya lots of ppl here have P.O. boxes across the border. I really should do that but don't feel I buy enough to warrant it.
Things seem especially slooooow on the west coast here. I guess the laid back Vansterdam vibe extends to the post and customs workers.
Better not be rolling my tubes.

I was hoping to spend the weekend trying them out. Oh well, there's always next weekend and that fits my schedule better anyway.

Tomorrow is the Grey Cup ("Canadian superbowl") and my team is in it AND the host city, so I'm off to buy supplies, nachos, wings, beer etc.


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> How could I ever have doubted him?



What cracks me up about all this is a few of us have had circuit mods done to our stock amps. We know how a good circuit tweak can make a difference. None of us here are comparing tube rolling to other tweaks. That being said rolling certain tubes in certain amps can make a significant change for the better. In others it is barely noticed(like my Monza).

With my DSL50 it was definitely noticeable. In my NT it seemed changing the power tubes helped warm the amp up and most of us know its usually the preamp tubes that make the biggest difference. Actually the DSL tightened/loosened up as well as became more open or congested with power tube changes. I found that a cooler bias on my DSL sounds/feels better than a hotter bias and saves me money cause I'm not wear'n out power tubes quicker. How do I know this? Cause I played the amp while I biased it. Alot!

We've have found that an amp can warm up, be a bit more dynamic, gain sustain/harmonic overtones, sound stiff/sterile with less sustain or make sound for a few minutes and then quit. These things are from roll'n tubes. 

Other tweaks like speaker changes, cab changes, pick up changes, guitar changes all make a significant difference with an amp. That's why there are threads devoted to those.

Could Dark Horse be right? Are we all just fool'n ourselves...

Toobs make a difference "tonally". This thread is devoted to it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Right on, Joe. I think modern Marshalls are the ultimate tube rolling platform. It was the same way with my DSL50 and now the Vintage Modern. You should hear that 1958 Mullard long plate in V1. I've rotated between that, both flavors of Telefunken, an Ei, and an I63 Amperex and can't decide which I like best, except for that Mullard. Tungsram tubes are a good V1 in the VM, too. 

Let's see now, Tungsram was made in Hungary, the Tele's were made in Germany, the Amperex was made in Holland, and the Ei was made in Yugoslavia. Did they have to pay royalties to the British to use their exclusive ECC83 designation? It said ECC83 on all the tubes I mentioned. Or wait, wasn't the E in ECC used to identify a 6.3V heater? Didn't I read that somewhere the ECC designation means a 6.3v double triode tube? I must have been wrong. Electron Cathode Collector? That's fascinating. This new learning amazes me, Sir Dorkhorse. I am a cathode collector, along with the other components that make up a tube. Does that make me a British 12AX7?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Right on, Joe. I think modern Marshalls are the ultimate tube rolling platform. It was the same way with my DSL50 and now the Vintage Modern. You should hear that 1958 Mullard long plate in V1. I've rotated between that, both flavors of Telefunken, an Ei, and an I63 Amperex and can't decide which I like best, except for that Mullard. Tungsram tubes are a good V1 in the VM, too.
> 
> Let's see now, Tungsram was made in Hungary, the Tele's were made in Germany, the Amperex was made in Holland, and the Ei was made in Yugoslavia. Did they have to pay royalties to the British to use their exclusive ECC83 designation? It said ECC83 on all the tubes I mentioned. Or wait, wasn't the E in ECC used to identify a 6.3V heater? Didn't I read that somewhere the ECC designation means a 6.3v double triode tube? I must have been wrong. Electron Cathode Collector? That's fascinating. This new learning amazes me, Sir Dorkhorse. I am a cathode collector, along with the other components that make up a tube. Does that make me a British 12AX7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think he is a 65 year old troll. He doesn't log on that often and when he does, he is posting the same old shit over and over.


----------



## MartyStrat54

E = 6.3V heater
C = Triode
C = Triode

ECC = 6.3V heater, dual triode

ECC83 = 12AX7 (British designation <lol>)


----------



## solarburn

Maybe he's had troubles using British(ECC83's)in American designed circuits...

Maybe he's racist about American vs British designed circuits & which tubes work best in either...









EDIT: Yes I'm kidding.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers...I have noticed a huge difference in rolling tubes in both of my 100watters....Keep On Rawkin' On The Preamp Thread.....Peace and Thx again Rawkers....


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> E = 6.3V heater
> C = Triode
> C = Triode
> 
> ECC = 6.3V heater, dual triode
> 
> ECC83 = 12AX7 (British designation <lol>)



Correct, sir, and L is the designator for pentode, i.e. an ELL80 is two 6.3v pentodes in one bottle with close to the same specs as two EL84's. They could be used as a single-tube push-pull design or two class A amps in stereo. There are also ECL tubes with a pentode and triode in the same bottle. 

By the way Mr. Dorkhorse, I'm not making that up. It's real info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I actually prefer the European designation, because the part number lets you know what type of function the tube has.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I actually prefer the European designation, because the part number lets you know what type of function the tube has.



Same here, I'd much rather look at the name of the tube and know it's got a 6.3v heater and what each of the sections are as opposed to some arbitrary letters and numbers.


----------



## RiverRatt

What I hate is the weird designations like ECC803 and E88CC that break from the norm. There are drawbacks with both systems. It would have been most useful if they could have encoded the pinout in their numbering scheme. That would be good to know at a glance.


----------



## mickeydg5

Do you guys think he is reading the preamp and power tube threads? I notice he has not posted in either. At least not that I am aware.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well he was invited to come back to this thread as long as he kept it civil. I really don't care. I don't think he has anything worthwhile to contribute.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Please go here and welcome our newest member.

http://www.marshallforum.com/introduce-yourself/35769-hello-dorkhorse-here-lol.html


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well he was invited to come back to this thread as long as he kept it civil. I really don't care. I don't think he has anything worthwhile to contribute.



I was just trying to give him a chance to come clean and play nice. Instead, he digs an ever deeper hole for himself.


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I was just trying to give him a chance to come clean and play nice. Instead, he digs an ever deeper hole for himself.



I second that motion. 

I asked some very basic questions, and he side stepped.


----------



## sccloser

My wife thinks I have lost my mind. I keep snickering and she asks me why and all I say to her is "Darkfart." Then I bust out laughing. Marty, that was a good one. And to whoever said that Darkfarts leave stains behind long after the stink is gone, that was a good one, too!


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> My wife thinks I have lost my mind. I keep snickering and she asks me why and all I say to her is "Darkfart." Then I bust out laughing. Marty, that was a good one. And to whoever said that Darkfarts leave stains behind long after the stink is gone, that was a good one, too!



Yep, too bad he is leaving a stain on the Forum right now!

I notice that his posts are pretty far apart, I bet he is googling tube facts like crazy right now.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Yep, too bad he is leaving a stain on the Forum right now!
> 
> I notice that his posts are pretty far apart, I bet he is googling tube facts like crazy right now.



Made me Lawl.


----------



## Sebat

I thought Darkfart was funny stuff.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Well, Marty just schooled me on the true history of a 7025. 

I'm still learning!


----------



## sccloser

Marshall Mann said:


> Well, Marty just schooled me on the true history of a 7025.
> 
> I'm still learning!



Please share...I am always learning as well.


----------



## sccloser

Thanks for the PM, Marty!


----------



## audiochains

MartyStrat54 said:


> Audiochains-I have no control over what tubes are available in your country. The Tube Store and The Tube Depot both offer worldwide shipping and they both carry the Mullard RI. However, Lowlife brings to light a good point. You might have to make a compromise on the tubes depending on what is feasible in your area.
> 
> I went to Tube Town and they don't have a real good selection and they also add a 19 percent tax and shipping costs.
> 
> If you can post the name of the tube store you want to buy from and if they have a website, I will take a look and make a recommendation.



Yeah thx for the insight guys! I'm well aware that taxes and customs + shipping will raise the costs (actually the Finnish taxing is quite familiar altogether haha stooooooopid stuff).

Marty I pm'd you with the store I usually use for tubes.

Awesome support on this forum


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok, so what did I miss about a 7025 (that could not be posted on the thread)?


----------



## solarburn

Hey man...its brp's B-Day! Happy birfday!


----------



## brp

Thanks Joe!

Currently soaking in my CFL BC Lion's championship win that was just won moments ago WOOT!

Ugh, I ate too much.... The older I get the less I can eat like that.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thanks Joe!
> 
> Currently soaking in my CFL BC Lion's championship win that was just won moments ago WOOT!
> 
> Ugh, I ate too much.... The older I get the less I can eat like that.



Ain't that the truth!

Have fun celebrating the win and the B-Day!


----------



## MM54

brp said:


> Thanks Joe!
> 
> Currently soaking in my CFL BC Lion's championship win that was just won moments ago WOOT!
> 
> Ugh, I ate too much.... The older I get the less I can eat like that.



Hell, I'm 18 (birthday in a week and some change though) and I can't eat a full meal without feeling a little sick when I'm done. It sucks.


----------



## solarburn

Take care of that digestive track. It can turn on you later in life. Food is my enemy and yet i have to eat it no matter the pain. After thousands of dollars in testing and 2 surgeries later all I have for a diagnosis is IBS. Means they don't know but yeah...sumptn's wrong alright.

Getting a 78' 2203 JMP might make me feel better though...


----------



## MM54

I do take care of it, it just never is very enthusiastic about eating a lot


----------



## solarburn

MM54 said:


> I do take care of it, it just never is very enthusiastic about eating a lot



Well that will keep ya lean and mean. A built in governor if you will...


----------



## MM54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well that will keep ya lean and mean. A built in governor if you will...



Haha that's true, I really don't ever seem to gain or lose more than a couple pounds no matter what I eat/do


----------



## Lowlife

This thread is almost falling off the front page, we cant have that


----------



## craiguitar

craiguitar said:


> Okay, done it. You are right, putting the mullard in V1 makes the most difference. Not enough for a 'Whoa!' but a pleasing change. More punch/immediacy and possibly more sustain if I'm not mistaken. I preferred my EH and Mesa ones in the other positions though. It's all incredibly subtle though, not the sort of thing you'd notice during a gig anyway.


 
Hi all, quick update. The Mullard I put in V1 exploded.  Put another one in and so far at least it survives, and is sounding fine. Very low noise. Took out the other ones, they were crackling and sounding generally poor, and replaced them with my favorire EH tubes in V2 & V3. In V4 I put in an old Mesa tube that I like, and it's all sounding pretty good now. Think I'll leave it as it is now.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Haha that's true, I really don't ever seem to gain or lose more than a couple pounds no matter what I eat/do



You are a lucky man. I gain 5 lbs. from smelling food cooking. 

I've got to cut back on the alcohol - that's why I can't lose weight. I don't binge drink, but I almost always have 2 or 3 drinks at night to relax. 

Happy belated birthday, Bill!

craiguitar, that's too bad about the Mullard. What happened to it? Every old tube that's failed on me has had a cracked base. One of the pitfalls of tube rolling.


----------



## carrots

NOS Mullards:

I have 8 of those little ones and 8 of the big ones. How much do I owe you?

$2,000.00

Oh okay, never mind.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that's what scares people away from old tubes. They see those ridiculous prices and think they'll never be able to afford them. You have to work at it a little, but you can find old tubes that are as cheap or cheaper than current production. I don't worry about NOS, pretty boxes and pretty printing on the tubes. I buy for tone, not collectibility.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok, I have a question or maybe a quest.

I have been puzzled by information given on some older stuff which pertains to the original 12ax7. I have notice things like said differences in transconductance and heater usage.

The oldest data I have found on the 12ax7 is from 1948 and shows all the characteristics and pinouts of what we see in data today.

Does anyone know of any differences and can produce data from 1946-1947 when the 12ax7 or 12au7 was first developed and marketed? I know that you can read stuff on the internet, but I want evidence.

Anyone? Thank you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-Shit like that is hard to find. I doubt if there are any Internet documentation of the 12AX7 in the R and D stages (1946). I know the 12AX7 was introduced to the public on September 15, 1947. All the original 12AX7's were ribbed, long plates.

If you find any info, let us know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was doing a little research and came across this post in another forum. No one questioned this guys comment. The question is: "Do all Amperex 12AX7's flash?" The reply:

"Only the 12AT7's Amperex (most often, Philips) flash." The guy who made this claim had a username of "GEEK."

That's why I only trust this thread.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was doing a little research and came across this post in another forum. No one questioned this guys comment. The question is: "Do all Amperex 12AX7's flash?" The reply:
> 
> "Only the 12AT7's Amperex (most often, Philips) flash." The guy who made this claim had a username of "GEEK."
> 
> That's why I only trust this thread.


 First: Happy Belated Birthday BRP....

I have two tubes that flash.....One is an original Mullard 12ax7 that was in my '71 SuperLead....it's a great tube that right now I have in the V1 of that Amp....the 2nd is an RCA (Amperex) 12ax7 I slipped under the Radar for less that $10..it's in my V2 of the '71 Superlead....that amp is sounding awesome right now....anyway...It would be hard to imagine all tubes of one make flashing...I have another strong Mullard that doesn't flash....


----------



## MartyStrat54

BRP-Still no tubes?


----------



## brp

61rocker said:


> First: Happy Belated Birthday BRP....





RiverRatt said:


> Happy belated birthday, Bill!



Thanks Guys! I had a great one.



I got my package of NOS tubes from Marty today, yeah! (Thanks Marty!!!)
Although very strangely, received them from Marty in KS mailed the same day as Joe mailed from WA and I've not yet received the one from WA, only 3 hours away and 1800 miles closer to me than KS!

I'm a little concerned because the IDIOT Postman left Marty's package on my front step as it is too big to go in our mailbox. This has never happened before. Normally, when a package comes that won't fit in the mailbox, they take the package back to the post office to be picked up and leave a notice to come to pick it up. I'm wondering if they did the same thing with the package Joe sent but someone stole it before I got home. 

This is only likely though if the package was too big for the locking mailbox and since Joe only sent 2 EL84's I assume it was a pretty small package.
What kind of package did you send Joe? How big? Padded envelope? etc. Also any chance you have a tracking #?

EDIT: Just opened the package and Marty, did you send me some extras?!  I haven't went through all the boxes yet as I just got home from work but there seems to be alot more of them than I expected!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I think you got a bargain. You bought four tubes and you got four extra. 

*GE 7025
*RCA 12AX7A
*Matched pair of Raytheon Black Plate EL84's labeled as Silvertone.

Yeah...you got a few extras.


----------



## brp

HOLY SWEET! That's amazing!

At first I was like "was he doing 2 orders at once and was really tired and put them all in my box and none in the other?" 

Seriously, that's TOO freaking cool man! I now have an instant little collection to roll in and build some first hand knowledge of how different NOS tubes will sound in my amps! Even some EL84's!

It will be great to be able to roll and compare.
I'm so stoked. I can't thank you enough for the bonus tubes Marty as well as the original order. You rock!


To further share my excitement, here's a pic of my first Martimus Maximus booty!





I'll be rolling tubes for the next couple weeks guys, I can't wait!
I may even try the 12ax7's in my tube mic preamp. Not sure what's in it now but surely nothing too nice.
Damn, can't do anything tonight or tomorrow night though GAH! Stupid kid's hockey game and work X-mas party the night and night after my NOS stash arrives. I feel a sickday coming on! (*cough cough*) lol

Now where the hell did those Sittards get to Canpost and/or USPS.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Probably the best tube for a microphone is a 12AD7, or one of the variants.

I'm glad you got the tubes. I was beginning to wonder about the Canadian Post Office.

That's weird that Joe's package hasn't arrived yet. Maybe tomorrow.

Enjoy those tubes. I think you will like the RAY BP EL84's. Good for everyday use in an amp.


----------



## brp

One possibility is that because of your central location in the U.S. your package went to the Ontario border to be processed instead of straight west. In this case, it could have been processed much quicker at the much larger eastern Canada customs facility, while Joe's location made his stuff go to the much smaller, slower and more over burdened BC border facility. Joe's stuff could even have been sent south to a central processing/collection plant like L.A. because it's international mail, thereby slowing things.

Well we'll see what happens this week, there's no good reason it would take longer than that.

I'll give you all my impressions as I try out these tubes.... Thanks again!

Also rest assured that someone at Canada Post is going to hear some bitching from me tomorrow about those tubes being left on my front step!


----------



## mickeydg5

Happy Birthday BRP! 


I had a tube, 12ax7 or ay, which would flash. I may still have it.

I knew you guys were into tubes, so I figured I would ask in case a 1946 or 1947 manual might be accessible. It is just something I would like to know.


----------



## brp

Also,


MartyStrat54 said:


> Probably the best tube for a microphone is a 12AD7, or one of the variants.



good to know that thanks.
The "tube drive" feature of my budget mic preamp doesn't seem to do much. There's a 12ax7 in there, I've not opened it up to find out what it is, probably a Sovtek or whatever is even cheaper.

I'm currently looking at another mic tube preamp (Presonus Tubepre), that comes with an extra Amperex 6681 for $75. Does that sound like a deal? He said he paid $60 just for the Amperex 6681.










I'd be rolling tubes right now but I have to leave in 5 minutes for my son's hockey game, which I have to coach as well....


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Presonus isn't that expensive, but it's not bad. That's a good price. The 6681 is a good quiet tube. Pretty neutral sounding and according to the markings on the box, it is a balanced tube. (105/105)


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Happy Birthday BRP!
> 
> 
> I had a tube, 12ax7 or ay, which would flash. I may still have it.
> 
> I knew you guys were into tubes, so I figured I would ask in case a 1946 or 1947 manual might be accessible. It is just something I would like to know.



There is an RCA Receiving Tube manual out there, RC15, that is officially the 1947 manual but the earliest date I've found in one was 3-48. I can't tell any difference in the 12AX7 page between them. Wouldn't it have had the same data sheet as the older 6AV6 x 2? I don't find any differences there, either.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> First: Happy Belated Birthday BRP....
> 
> I have two tubes that flash.....One is an original Mullard 12ax7 that was in my '71 SuperLead....it's a great tube that right now I have in the V1 of that Amp....the 2nd is an RCA (Amperex) 12ax7 I slipped under the Radar for less that $10..it's in my V2 of the '71 Superlead....that amp is sounding awesome right now....anyway...It would be hard to imagine all tubes of one make flashing...I have another strong Mullard that doesn't flash....



All the Philips tubes I have flash from a cold start. When I bought my first Egnater or maybe Jet City, it had Chinese 12AX7's that flashed. It has nothing to do with tube quality, it's just a weird little effect.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Thanks Guys! I had a great one.
> 
> 
> 
> I got my package of NOS tubes from Marty today, yeah! (Thanks Marty!!!)
> Although very strangely, received them from Marty in KS mailed the same day as Joe mailed from WA and I've not yet received the one from WA, only 3 hours away and 1800 miles closer to me than KS!
> 
> I'm a little concerned because the IDIOT Postman left Marty's package on my front step as it is too big to go in our mailbox. This has never happened before. Normally, when a package comes that won't fit in the mailbox, they take the package back to the post office to be picked up and leave a notice to come to pick it up. I'm wondering if they did the same thing with the package Joe sent but someone stole it before I got home.
> 
> This is only likely though if the package was too big for the locking mailbox and since Joe only sent 2 EL84's I assume it was a pretty small package.
> What kind of package did you send Joe? How big? Padded envelope? etc. Also any chance you have a tracking #?
> 
> EDIT: Just opened the package and Marty, did you send me some extras?!  I haven't went through all the boxes yet as I just got home from work but there seems to be alot more of them than I expected!



I will check with the ups store I mailed it from tomorrow. I found my receipt to blackones shipment but can't find your shipments receipt. Figures...

Oh and i used the same box Alan shipped them to me in. My keyboard is going tits as I type...Fk!


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't even remember what box I used. All I know is there's never one the right size around when I need it. Was it a Priority Mail Flat Rate box?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I don't even remember what box I used. All I know is there's never one the right size around when I need it. Was it a Priority Mail Flat Rate box?



Yep.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> There is an RCA Receiving Tube manual out there, RC15, that is officially the 1947 manual but the earliest date I've found in one was 3-48. I can't tell any difference in the 12AX7 page between them. Wouldn't it have had the same data sheet as the older 6AV6 x 2? I don't find any differences there, either.


 
Thanks. I have seen RC15. What is funny about that one is the copyright date in 1947 but printed date of 10-48. It may have been updated defore shipping. I will look for the RC14 or a Sylvania manual to see that dates and data for 1946-47.

Like the 6AV6, the 6SL7 and 6C4 (for the 12AU7) all had specific heater voltages and no center tap. I am just wondering if the first 12AU7 and 12AX7 were the same or whether they had the center tap from the get go.

I have also noticed on a couple of older testers that a transconductance of about 8% less is noted for the 12AX7 as compared to other or later testers. I am trying to figure why?.


----------



## RiverRatt

The RC14 is dated 1940. Like I said, that RC15 I found has a March 1948 date on it instead of the usual October date. I think that's about as close to it as we'll get.

I ran across some Sylvania books - I'll look them up at home when I've got more time.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> One possibility is that because of your central location in the U.S. your package went to the Ontario border to be processed instead of straight west. In this case, it could have been processed much quicker at the much larger eastern Canada customs facility, while Joe's location made his stuff go to the much smaller, slower and more over burdened BC border facility. Joe's stuff could even have been sent south to a central processing/collection plant like L.A. because it's international mail, thereby slowing things.
> 
> Well we'll see what happens this week, there's no good reason it would take longer than that.
> 
> I'll give you all my impressions as I try out these tubes.... Thanks again!
> 
> Also rest assured that someone at Canada Post is going to hear some bitching from me tomorrow about those tubes being left on my front step!



Went to my UPS store to check on the tubes. They said since it went mail there is no way to track it. There is a 30 day period to wait with US mail and then I can take my receipt to the Post Office and get some action on it. So that would be what the 17th of December...

Next time I will send it UPS if I'm going to Canada so at least I can track it. More money but man at least I can see where it is. The lady there did say Customs can take this long as she has had some that did. Let's hope there isn't an issue. If there is we will deal with it and if they lose those tubes I'll make it right. Finger's F'n !


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> The RC14 is dated 1940. Like I said, that RC15 I found has a March 1948 date on it instead of the usual October date. I think that's about as close to it as we'll get.
> 
> I ran across some Sylvania books - I'll look them up at home when I've got more time.


 

So RC-14 is too early. Thank you for the information.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have a copy of it, but it's listed everywhere as the 1940 book. I've never gone looking for any of the ones earlier than RC15. 

So what you're trying to find out is if pin 9 was always a center tap for the heaters on a 12AX7, correct?


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Went to my UPS store to check on the tubes. They said since it went mail there is no way to track it. There is a 30 day period to wait with US mail and then I can take my receipt to the Post Office and get it some action on it. So that would be what the 17th of December...
> 
> Next time I will send it UPS if I'm going to Canada so at least I can track it. More money but man at least I can see where it is. The lady there did say Customs can take this long as she has had some that did. Let's hope there isn't an issue. If there is we will deal with it and if they lose those tubes I'll make it right. Finger's F'n !



Joe, Thanks very much for your extra effort and concern! 

My wife gets home from work long before me and I'm still at work but I called her at home to see if there was any mail and she said the package from Washington was in our mailbox! WOOT! Crisis averted. 

As I said, I haven't been home to verify that the tubes made it here in one piece but we now know the package has arrived anyway and was not stolen as I feared due to mail carrier impropriety.

Canada Post got a nasty complaint today about their employee leaving my merchandise unsecured on the step and I'm awaiting to hear back from them with assurances that will never happen again. (It is against their policy to leave packages unsecured.)
Good thing your/Alan's package fit in our locking mailbox! (my wife said it just barely was able to fit)

I'll post again once I get home and open the package.

Thanks again, Alan via Joe and again Joe for helping!


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, more or less. I have never found anything to prove that original 12AU7 and 12AX7 miniatures were ever any different.


----------



## MM54

US postal service (and UPS and FedEx, etc) always leave stuff unsecured on my front step... never considered stuff could VERY easily be stolen and never accounted for :eek2:


----------



## brp

I guess it depends where you live/how secure and secluded your front step is but if you saw where they left my package and how easily someone could walk away with the package that was in full view (no porch, no screen door to put package behind etc.) and a corner unit of a townhouse complex with door at street level, sidewalks 10 feet away on both sides of unit in a very busy and not exactly upscale neighborhood, lots of little punks and assorted lowlifes around, you'd be shocked they thought it would be safe there until I got home. SERIOUSLY fucking annoyed by that here. 

Oh well, I'll need them to promise that will not happen again before I can use regular mail as a shipper ever again.


Also, Joe, UPS is a terrible option to Canada for the receiver unfortunately,
UPS automatically brokers customs clearance for package and then charges the receiver huge brokerage fees without telling them. You get your package but then a couple weeks later receive a brokerage bill from UPS with taxes, duties and added Customs brokerage fees.

USPS DOES have other options to Canada though, First class international mail w/ tracking #. I've never once had to pay brokerage or tax/duties when first class USPS International mail w/ tracking was used to ship, even on merch with a declared value or $200 where taxes and duties should be due. Canada Customs does not regularly make receivers pay these amounts on items unless it's a car or other high value item but with UPS paying it automatically on your behalf via their Customs brokerage when they are the shipper, there's no way around it. Good for you guys who ship to Canada to know to tell your customers/item receivers etc. who want to use UPS or Fedex as the shipper (Fedex fees aren't as high as UPS but it's the same deal; auto brokerage and auto taxes/duties paid on your behalf and billed to you later.)


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I guess it depends where you live, but if you seen where they left my package and how easily someone could walk away with the packages that was in full view (no porch, no screen door to put package behind etc.) and a corner unit of a townhouse complex with door at street level, sidewalks 10 feet away on both sides of unit in a very busy and not exactly upscale neighborhood, lots of little punks and assorted lowlifes around, you'd be shocked they thought it would be safe there until I got home. SERIOUSLY fucking annoyed by that here.
> 
> Oh well, I'll need them to promise that will not happen again before I can use regular mail as a shipper ever again.
> 
> 
> Also, Joe, UPS is a terrible option to Canada for the receiver unfortunately,
> UPS automatically brokers customs for the packages and then charges the receiver huge brokerage fees without telling them. You get your package but then a couple weeks later receive a brokerage bill from UPS with taxes, duties and added Customs brokerage fees.
> 
> USPS DOES have other options to Canada though, First class international mail w/ tracking #. I've never had to pay brokerage or tax/duties when firstclass USPS International w/ tracking was used to ship.



Well now that we know how long it can take, UPS won't be necessary. I didn't know the receiver got hit with fees. Damn!

Good to hear it made it...hopefully in one piece! Let me know and again !


----------



## johnfv

For me, my doorstep has been safe (so far at least). When a signature is required we end up having to drive to the other side of town to pick something up so I prefer them to leave at my door. As for the customs brokerage fees, I have dealt with that on my Ceriatone amps (UPS and Fedex). A very unpleasant surprise to get that bill long after the fact...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I ship my tubes to Canada by First Class mail and the contents are marked as "gift" on the declarations form. The flip side is there is no tracking available and the items are uninsured, but this is the cheapest way for the receiver.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I ship my tubes to Canada by First Class mail and the contents are marked as "gift" on the declarations form. The flip side is there is no tracking available and the items are uninsured, but this is the cheapest way for the receiver.



I'll have to remember to mark them as gift.


----------



## brp

I just got home and opened the package and I have what appears to be 2 fully intact and apparently undamaged Sittard Holland tubes from what I can tell at a glance.

Thanks Alan via the transitive power of Joe! 


I'll let you guys know how (and dare I say if) they work in my NT.

I wish I could sit here and roll tubes tonight as I now have TEN NOS tubes to try but I gotta go to my work's xmas party.
I'm gonna try to bail out early enough to be able to try out some tubes before it's too late for the neighbors.... tomorrow night and the weekend for sure though and I'll post all my impressions.
THANKS AGAIN ALAN, MARTY AND JOE! Marshall Forum tube hounds RAWK.


----------



## 30stringsandblackdog

It's been a long while since I posted here and I hope the usual gang here has been well. I've basically stopped playing (my fingers don't work like they used to...this Florida weather sucks), and I've been selling off my gear to buy an older Porsche, something I've wanted since I was 12.
Anyway, I started packing up Diana, a Paul Ruby Trainwreck clone made for John Speck, and noticed that the V3 tube had cracked. It was an older (70s, 80s?) Ei 12AX7.
I was wondering if anyone here has one to sell, if not an Ei, then something equivalent in quality (Sylvania? RCA?).
Please let me know what you have and price shipped to Florida 33073. As always, thanks in advance. 
Serge
P.S.
Here is what all that gear got me...a 1987 Carrera coupe with 52,500 original miles; Her name is Ruby.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> I just got home and opened the package and I have what appears to be 2 fully intact and apparently undamaged Sittard Holland tubes from what I can tell at a glance.
> 
> Thanks Alan via the transitive power of Joe!
> 
> 
> I'll let you guys know how (and dare I say if) they work in my NT.
> 
> I wish I could sit here and roll tubes tonight as I now have TEN NOS tubes to try but I gotta go to my work's xmas party.
> I'm gonna try to bail out early enough to be able to try out some tubes before it's too late for the neighbors.... tomorrow night and the weekend for sure though and I'll post all my impressions.
> THANKS AGAIN ALAN, MARTY AND JOE! Marshall Forum tube hounds RAWK.



If they fire up(I'm sure they will)you gonna like it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

30strings-What does V3 do in that amp? I have Ei's and also RCA and Sylvania's. If it isn't a gain slot, I would say you could get by with a Sylvania or RCA.


----------



## gameshound

Hey All

Have had a bit of a windfall..in the last few weeks I have managed to scrounge up about a 100 or so bugleboy 12ax7's...they don't have the bugle boy label...but they do have the the proper codes and construction to prove they were made in the Phillips Heerlen plant in Holland
Also scared up some holland made 7025's as well!!!(just a few though

So if any of the members are interested please P.M. me and we can talk!!!

Looking forward to hearing from you peoples!!

Gameshound



Oh and I agree 1000% "Darkfart" is a complete tool!!!!


----------



## gameshound

If your looking for an EI tube to replace it...I think I may have something for a reasonable price...Let me know

Gameshound


----------



## carrots

gameshound said:


> Hey All
> 
> Have had a bit of a windfall..in the last few weeks I have managed to scrounge up about a 100 or so bugleboy 12ax7's...they don't have the bugle boy label...but they do have the the proper codes and construction to prove they were made in the Phillips Heerlen plant in Holland
> Also scared up some holland made 7025's as well!!!(just a few though
> 
> So if any of the members are interested please P.M. me and we can talk!!!
> 
> Looking forward to hearing from you peoples!!
> 
> Gameshound
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and I agree 1000% "Darkfart" is a complete tool!!!!



Hah, You know DarkFart? He stinks...... and he likes Tubin & Bobin.
He thinks they're all the same. Maybe in Greenwich Village they are.
 < The Village People


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't gotten a tube in the mail in ages. I still haven't listed all those power tubes yet, either. It's hard to part with them. I've got around 10 pairs of 6L6GC's, EL34's and 5881's that I need to move before Christmas. 

I hate having 10 or 15 eBay listings going at once. It's nerve-wracking. I'm always paranoid that I'm going to send the wrong tubes to somebody.


----------



## carrots

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't gotten a tube in the mail in ages. I still haven't listed all those power tubes yet, either. It's hard to part with them. I've got around 10 pairs of 6L6GC's, EL34's and 5881's that I need to move before Christmas.
> 
> I hate having 10 or 15 eBay listings going at once. It's nerve-wracking. I'm always paranoid that I'm going to send the wrong tubes to somebody.




Hey, put me on the wrong list. My address will be PMed to you..


----------



## carrots

Are some amps not going to respond to pre amp tube upgrades.
For instance a Peavey Classic 30.. with a G12H.
I installed a couple that I had in my cousins amp. Its still sucked. Is there no hope for him and his Peavey? There are also new EL84 JJ's power tubes.
I recommended he spend a few buck and buy a real amp. Am I wrong?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've had amps that sounded just as good with cheap Chinese preamp tubes. IIRC the Jet City JCA20H was one of them. It wasn't a bad sound, either. There seems to be some sort of correlation between the amount of gain and the need for NOS. For AC/DC, Zep, and most classic rock, you don't need much gain and I think NOS helps bring some punch and clarity to your tone. For a high-gain amp, I think Chinese tubes are the best bet. I just don't like the tone of any of the Eastern European preamp tubes with the possible exception of the Tung-Sol. I do think the JJ EL84's are decent power tubes. I used a pair in a Blackheart head and they sounded fine in that amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought that the Classic 30 and 50 were pretty nice amps. I've read on the forum that they are good amps. I haven't played Peavey since 1984.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The JJ EL84 is probably the standard OE tube right now for small amps.


----------



## carrots

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought that the Classic 30 and 50 were pretty nice amps. I've read on the forum that they are good amps. I haven't played Peavey since 1984.




The amp isn't total shit.. He just wants it better.. I thought better pre-amp tubes would be the ticket. We popped them in and it made no difference. I'm wondering if some amp circuitry just doesn't respond to the good stuff.
Marty, let me know aht you think. I'll pass the information on to him. He's playing a Music Man with HSH pickups. Most likely Dimarzio's.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Classic 30 is a decent amp. It could be a bad speaker that's keeping it from sounding right.


----------



## carrots

RiverRatt said:


> I've had amps that sounded just as good with cheap Chinese preamp tubes. IIRC the Jet City JCA20H was one of them. It wasn't a bad sound, either. There seems to be some sort of correlation between the amount of gain and the need for NOS. For AC/DC, Zep, and most classic rock, you don't need much gain and I think NOS helps bring some punch and clarity to your tone. For a high-gain amp, I think Chinese tubes are the best bet. I just don't like the tone of any of the Eastern European preamp tubes with the possible exception of the Tung-Sol. I do think the JJ EL84's are decent power tubes. I used a pair in a Blackheart head and they sounded fine in that amp.




River, see my post above ^ this one.


----------



## carrots

RiverRatt said:


> The Classic 30 is a decent amp. It could be a bad speaker that's keeping it from sounding right.



Its possible.. G12H in there now.


----------



## carrots

MartyStrat54 said:


> The JJ EL84 is probably the standard OE tube right now for small amps.



Marty, I put a JJ in V4 in the DSL tonight and gave it a go.. It was better than the Russian Sovtek.


----------



## carrots

RiverRatt said:


> I've had amps that sounded just as good with cheap Chinese preamp tubes. IIRC the Jet City JCA20H was one of them. It wasn't a bad sound, either. There seems to be some sort of correlation between the amount of gain and the need for NOS. For AC/DC, Zep, and most classic rock, you don't need much gain and I think NOS helps bring some punch and clarity to your tone. For a high-gain amp, I think Chinese tubes are the best bet. I just don't like the tone of any of the Eastern European preamp tubes with the possible exception of the Tung-Sol. I do think the JJ EL84's are decent power tubes. I used a pair in a Blackheart head and they sounded fine in that amp.




River, I personally don't use alot of gain thru my amp.. I've gotten away from it for the most part this year in fact. I like what you like clarity, pop, strong bass notes and sustain. Gilmourish.


----------



## RiverRatt

carrots said:


> River, see my post above ^ this one.



Yeah, that's what I was replying to. Maybe I wasn't clear. There are amps (like the JCA20H) that sound about the same no matter what you put in them. Every amp is a little different. Marshalls seem to respond to preamp tube changes better than any other amp I've owned, but there are differences between the models. My DSL didn't like bright tubes, but I'm finding that those tubes that didn't sound so good in it are great in my Vintage Modern. 

If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you're just going to have to throw every kind of tube at the Peavey that you can and hope you find magic. That's what tube rolling is about, and just because a tube sounds great in your Marshall doesn't mean that it will sound the same in other amps as well. I love my Fender Hot Rod DeVille, but it needs nice USA tubes to sound its best. I'm running all Sylvania in it, with an old 1958 Sylvania 5751 in V1 and it's a tone monster. My Egnater Tweaker likes Mullards and similar tubes.


----------



## carrots

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, that's what I was replying to. Maybe I wasn't clear. There are amps (like the JCA20H) that sound about the same no matter what you put in them. Every amp is a little different. Marshalls seem to respond to preamp tube changes better than any other amp I've owned, but there are differences between the models. My DSL didn't like bright tubes, but I'm finding that those tubes that didn't sound so good in it are great in my Vintage Modern.
> 
> If I had to venture a guess, I'd say you're just going to have to throw every kind of tube at the Peavey that you can and hope you find magic. That's what tube rolling is about, and just because a tube sounds great in your Marshall doesn't mean that it will sound the same in other amps as well. I love my Fender Hot Rod DeVille, but it needs nice USA tubes to sound its best. I'm running all Sylvania in it, with an old 1958 Sylvania 5751 in V1 and it's a tone monster. My Egnater Tweaker likes Mullards and similar tubes.



The amp belongs to my cousin Eric.. He's a Dr. and has little time or lots of time once a month. I'm not sure he'd go as far as we do to find great sound. 
I had a VM a few years ago.. Not knowing shit about anything I sold it. That was a mistake.. Tubes and the right speakers would have made that a great amp. The C's in the 425 cabs suck. Really suck!
I've learned more in here in a week than I did in and out of the ass-wipe TGP in two or three years.


----------



## RiverRatt

carrots said:


> The amp belongs to my cousin Eric.. He's a Dr. and has little time or lots of time once a month. I'm not sure he'd go as far as we do to find great sound.
> I had a VM a few years ago.. Not knowing shit about anything I sold it. That was a mistake.. Tubes and the right speakers would have made that a great amp. The C's in the 425 cabs suck. Really suck!
> I've learned more in here in a week than I did in and out of the ass-wipe TGP in two or three years.



I love my 425 cab. It's got the stock Celestion greenback clones in it. I like the bite that a 1960 with G12T-75's has, too. I'd love to have a 1960B to put under my 425A. I had a couple of cabs with well broken-in T-75's and they sounded good. Cody (BluesRocker) has both of them now.


----------



## RiverRatt

I recorded the rhythm part of this on my Vintage Modern/425A with an Ibanez RG550. The lead riff is my Strat with the Egnater Tweaker and a 2x12 with Eminence Legends. I really like the speakers in the 425. They are a lot more thick low-mids than the other Marshall cabs I've had. I used the VM through a 1960B for awhile. The 425 is the better cab IMO, but I'd love to have a 1960B to complete the stack.

This is just a little thing I was messing with that I liked and recorded it so I'd be able to remember it. Short-term memory, you know...

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/326112_zgmzh/Piss%20Off%20The%20Neighbors%202.mp3


----------



## carrots

Cool... I haven't done any recording yet. I want to. Soon I guess.


----------



## brp

Speaking of which, I need a speaker recommendation if anyone would like to chime in.

I converted a Combo amp (Fender Princeton 65 DSP) to a 1 x 12" cab, (removed the amp chassis, closed up the space left in the front, closed up half the back)

It's the size of your average 1x12 combo amp, partial open back. I want to replace the Fender speaker with something that would be a contrast to my other partial open back 1 x12" which has a G12H-30.
Anything spring to mind? Anything that sounds great but that's known for what the G12H30 is NOT known for, so I would have 2 very different 1 X12 cabs for a wider range of tone options when recording...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Try a Black Powder or Swamp Thang. The Black Powder is available in 8 ohm only.

There's a lot of neat speakers out there that does not sound like a G12H30.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and on Eminence's updated website, their EQ graphs only go down to 100Hz now which sucks, but most 12-inch guitar speakers start dying at 100Hz.


----------



## brp

Cool thanks.
I'm not sure where I can get Eminence around here but I'm sure there's somewhere. I'll look into it.

Oh I forgot to mention I want 16 ohm so I've the option to run the 2 together.


I can't even say for sure what the G12H30 sounds like as I've only heard it with those Sovteks in the NT.
Time to roll some tubes....

What else won't be like a G12h30, other Celestions etc.


----------



## MartyStrat54

G12-65. Probably the best sounding Celestion. It's a Heritage model.


----------



## BluesRocker

I love the Greenback... Just a great speaker


----------



## mickeydg5

brp said:


> Cool thanks.
> I'm not sure where I can get Eminence around here but I'm sure there's somewhere. I'll look into it.
> 
> What else won't be like a G12h30, other Celestions etc.


 
Which G12H speaker do you have? There are three.


----------



## brp

mickeydg5 said:


> Which G12H speaker do you have? There are three.



Oh right, I meant to mention that actually.

It's the 70th Anniversary S.E.


And yes I've been considering a greenback, loved those back in the day. It's been awhile since I played through one of those. I've heard there's some cheap versions to avoid though...


----------



## mickeydg5

If you want a Celestion to complement the G12H 70th, I would choose the Heritage G12H 55Hz. It has a little more top end and bass capability.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's interesting that nobody has mentioned a Vintage 30. 

I had a couple of cabs with G12K-100's and they sounded killer paired up with a mid-heavy speaker. Great cleans and massive bottom.


----------



## brp

Ok so I just tried out my first NOS 12ax7's from my recent Martimus shipment.

(CP JJ EL84's in the power section currently. Guitar: '07 Les Paul Studio, stock 490/498t pickups)

I put the RFT in the first preamp slot and the Baldwin marked Sylvania in the PI and was super excited to hear what was in store for me.

Plugged in and immediately noticed the "sterile and stiff" sound, as Joe aptly described it, was gone with the preamp cranked on the NT. Also immediately noticed that, just like when I tried the RFT EL84, I had to replace the high end I had rolled off with the Sovteks (and to a lesser degree with the JJ's) to get it to sound like it wasn't "blanketed", although that rolloff was very necessary with the Sovtek EL84 in the power slots. I was surprised how much high end I replaced and could in fact boost without that real bright sound I had come to know the Vox for. Also noticed I should roll back the mids a bit from the steep boost I had going to get the Sovteks sounding warmer.

Seemed like quite a bit less gain than the Sovtek but quite nice sounding. So I click on my Hot Tubes modded SD-1.

The sound was terrible! Super bassy and muddy and squeally, I was horrified at how it sounded and had the thought "Is this what a bad preamp tube sounds like? It sounds just like... like.... a dead battery in my SD-1!" lol Hadn't played through the amp since ordering the 12ax7's and I have a rechargeable 9v in there.

So, hooked an adapter up to the SD-1 and gave it another go. SD-1 level 9, gain 0, tone 5.
Wow! Now we're talking. The amp sounds great compared to with the Sovtek which I didn't think I really minded but didn't know how bad they sounded compared to other tubes.
Again had to add back some highs. Sounds fantastic. Now I know why you guys are tube crazy.
It's so warm and middy, no fizz, clear and super responsive to pick attack.
It was also quite responsive to pick attack w/ Sovteks but fizzy, brittle, stiff and harsh sounding and no amount of EQ tweaks seemed to completely cure that, only somewhat mitigate and mask it. Now though, it's like butter! On thick mode the amp was crazy!

I'm going to spend a couple of days getting used to this combination in the preamp and then try out the Sittard EL84's and compare them with the Raytheon BP EL84's Marty gave me and hear if either is more pleasing. Then I'll try out some of the other 12AX7's.

I'm so stoked by this tone. I was literally giggling as I played new things at what I was hearing coming from the cab and as the amp warmed up, it got better and better. Can't wait to put some NOS in the power stage but I will take a couple days like I said to get familiar with the RFT/Sylvania combo.


----------



## solarburn

I'd try the new Lynchback from Celestion. Heard some good clips of it heavy as well as crunchy which caught my attention. Any speaker that gives me a nice rich crunch(not crisp)that is juicy and holds itself together when hit hard is a weiner to me.LOL

Marty has lots of xperience with some Eminence models. Real world stuff. I like the GB128 Eminences higher wattage greenback like speaker. I don't see many know about it but those that use it give it xcellent reviews.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Ok so I just tried out my first NOS 12ax7's from my recent Martimus shipment.
> 
> (CP JJ EL84's in the power section currently. Guitar: '07 Les Paul Studio, stock 490/498t pickups)
> 
> I put the RFT in the first preamp slot and the Baldwin marked Sylvania in the PI and was super excited to hear what was in store for me.
> 
> Plugged in and immediately noticed the "sterile and stiff" sound, as Joe aptly described it, was gone with the preamp cranked on the NT. Also immediately noticed that, just like when I tried the RFT EL84, I had to replace the high end I had rolled off with the Sovteks (and to a lesser degree with the JJ's) to get it to sound like it wasn't "blanketed", although that rolloff was very necessary with the Sovtek EL84 in the power slots. I was surprised how much high end I replaced and could in fact boost without that real bright sound I had come to know the Vox for. Also noticed I should roll back the mids a bit from the steep boost I had going to get the Sovteks sounding warmer.
> 
> Seemed like quite a bit less gain than the Sovtek but quite nice sounding. So I click on my Hot Tubes modded SD-1.
> 
> The sound was terrible! Super bassy and muddy and squeally, I was horrified at how it sounded and had the thought "Is this what a bad preamp tube sounds like? It sounds just like... like.... a dead battery in my SD-1!" lol Hadn't played through the amp since ordering the 12ax7's and I have a rechargeable 9v in there.
> 
> So, hooked an adapter up to the SD-1 and gave it another go. SD-1 level 9, gain 0, tone 5.
> Wow! Now we're talking. The amp sounds great compared to with the Sovtek which I didn't think I really minded but didn't know how bad they sounded compared to other tubes.
> Again had to add back some highs. Sounds fantastic. Now I know why you guys are tube crazy.
> It's so warm and middy, no fizz, clear and super responsive to pick attack.
> It was also quite responsive to pick attack w/ Sovteks but fizzy, brittle, stiff and harsh sounding and no amount of EQ tweaks seemed to completely cure that, only somewhat mitigate and mask it. Now though, it's like butter! On thick mode the amp was crazy!
> 
> I'm going to spend a couple of days getting used to this combination in the preamp and then try out the Sittard EL84's and compare them with the Raytheon BP EL84's Marty gave me and hear if either is more pleasing. Then I'll try out some of the other 12AX7's.
> 
> I'm so stoked by this tone. I was literally giggling as I played new things at what I was hearing coming from the cab and as the amp warmed up, it got better and better. Can't wait to put some NOS in the power stage but I will take a couple days like I said to get familiar with the RFT/Sylvania combo.



I loved how pick dynamics changed when getting rid of those "cardboard" tubes out of the circuit. Roll off, pick dynamics, overtones popping out...

It be a better amp just because dem tubes were added. Don't ya think...?


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Wow! Now we're talking. The amp sounds great compared to with the Sovtek which I didn't think I really minded but didn't know how bad they sounded compared to other tubes.



That's the reason we're so into tube rolling. It's by far the easiest, cheapest, and most fun way to make your amp really come to life. 

Most people don't know how bad current production tubes sound compared to the old stuff. As you've just discovered, the NOS tubes don't change the sound of your amp, they just emphasize the good points and eliminate the bad. You should get your membership card for the Cork Sniffers club in the mail soon.


----------



## solarburn

Hahahaha! Yeah hawwwwwwww!


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> It be a better amp just because dem tubes were added. Don't ya think...?




Oh indoobitibly!
It seems like a whole new deal to me right now! I'm quite impressed.

Like Alan said, it doesn't really change the sound, just emphasize the good and eliminate the negatives.
I'm now very curious how other 12ax7's will sound in there. I can see how it would be tough to rest without having heard them all.


Thanks for the speaker advice everyone. Really want something that would be the starkest contrast to the G12H30 70th, not something that would be in the same ballpark as that would be redundant for my use.

Alan, can you name some examples of what you would call a "mid-heavy" speaker.
I don't know different guitar speakers very well. I do know this Fender 12 sounds like ass compared to the G12H30.


----------



## solarburn

The G12-65 is mid heavy. V30 will be upper mid heavy.


----------



## brp

I do not like upper mid. 
2 to 3k is hell.


----------



## mickeydg5

I like the Vintage 30 and the G12K seem very interesting.

I do not think there is a Celestion with any cut at 2-3KHz.


----------



## solarburn

I was surprised how good the NT sounded through my V30 loaded Avatar Contemporary 212. I thought it would be awful bright but it wasn't. Course this was after the tube changes. Right now I use WGS Veteran 30 in a 112 open back. It doesn't have the upper mid spike. Its good but I use it as my room crusher speaker as I open up my low watters. Fricken loud man. I don't like the H-30's. They are too bright to my ears and don't have the mids I like. I had a 412 of them matched with my DSL50 and I got rid of then for some GB's. There was this stiffness that seemed a bit harsh. They weren't horrible just a bit harsh. Big bottom on them.


----------



## solarburn

mickeydg5 said:


> I like the Vintage 30 and the G12K seem very interesting.
> 
> I do not think there is a Celestion with any cut at 2-3KHz.



I have 2 of the K100's and since I'm doing classic rock mostly I find them a bit thin in the middle. They do high gain great especially when pounded with wattage hehe.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I love the Greenback... Just a great speaker



Killer sig pic!


----------



## brp

I'm going to look into the Eminence and see what I come up with around here....

How do you characterize the Swamp Thang, Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of 12-inch guitar speakers have a spike beginning at around 2KHz. Some are hotter than 10dB which is a tremendous amount perceived as "spikey high end."

I feel the better sounding speakers have "spikes" of less than 5dB.

MICKEY-Have you ever used or heard the Eminence Delta Pro? It is basically a PA speaker, but a lot of guys use it in their guitar amps. It has a smoking bottom end, especially in a tuned cabinet. Very smooth and warm as it is good up to about 4.5K and has a PA "flat" frequency response. I made a custom cab for a guy in Independence, KS and it was basically like an EV 12L or JBL E120 (weighs 18 pounds). I used two in my Marshall 602 and they sounded pretty good, but they were so heavy. Makes a great modeling speaker.

Eminence Delta Pro-12A 12" Cast Frame Driver 290-510

Heavy speakers are sort of old school, but the votes not all in on the neodymium speakers. Anyhow, this is a great substitute for the higher priced EV and JBL speakers.

My favorite speaker, which I have a pair in my custom TSL 602, are the JBL D123. Probably the best blues and classic rock speaker I've heard, but it is ALNICO and has a revised power handling of 50 watts. It was originally rated at 30 watts. I also had six of the old version Altec 416 ALNICO speakers. This is the speaker that Carlos Santana made famous. I decided it was time to sell them and I did up a half stack with four of them. Again, very heavy as the 416 used a huge ALNICO magnet, but man did the customer like how it sounded. I put them in an oversized 412 cab allowing for 2 cubic foot of volume per speaker. Lots of bottom end. In a vented cab, you can get a solid 45Hz out of them.

The problem with the great old speakers of the 60's is if you damage one, most are no longer repairable. All the factory kits have been sold and most of these speakers used high precision voice coils and gap spacing. Almost all of the JBL were flat wound wire on the voice coil. I think the old USA speakers are the best, but again you take a risk owning some of them nowadays.

I spent several thousand dollars on Eminence speakers. I tried a whole bunch and got a real good idea what sounded the best. I stay in touch with Anthony Lucas of Eminence and I try to stay up on all of Eminence's new products.


----------



## mickeydg5

I should have said there are no full range speakers out there that don not spike in the 2-3KHz range. Some speakers are just mellow compared to others, but they all spike upwards at 2kHz or so.

Check this out. There is other stuff on the internet too.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWK0sa7tlfI&feature=related]15 Speakers compared Celestion vs E.V. vs Eminence vs JBL vs Jensen vs Tone Tubby - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> I'm going to look into the Eminence and see what I come up with around here....
> 
> How do you characterize the Swamp Thang, Marty?



When I was making a lot of custom cabs, the Swamp Thang was my most popular speaker. It reminds me of a Man 'O War. Very thick and chunky. Lots of fat bottom end and articulate. Will make a small amp sound huge and loud. If you do not want loud, then this is not a good choice. This speaker is rated at 102dB with one watt. Works best in a 1.8 cubic foot sealed cab.

It will sound completely different than your G12H-30.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I know of the Delta series. I was going to say, now you are in the Electrovoice and JBL territory. Different weight and stiffer mechanics. That is where the Q's come in (very low). Definitely a different feel and definitely appreciates more power.

The 4.5kHz is a little low though. But for the price and if you pair it up with something for the highs, good deal.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> When I was making a lot of custom cabs, the Swamp Thang was my most popular speaker. It reminds me of a Man 'O War. Very thick and chunky. Lots of fat bottom end and articulate. Will make a small amp sound huge and loud. If you do not want loud, then this is not a good choice. This speaker is rated at 102dB with one watt. Works best in a 1.8 cubic foot sealed cab.
> 
> It will sound completely different than your G12H-30.



Sounds like just the ticket EXCEPT for the loud part. Loud is not what I need.
I need optimal performance at lower to moderate volume for home recording & "bedroom jamming".
I like the thick & chunky and making a small amp sound big though, that's just what I need. Something like that but without the excessive loudness would be perfect.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I like the Vintage 30 and the G12K seem very interesting.



It's the speaker Orange used in the Thunderverb cabs. I've heard that that cab makes a decent bass cabinet, too. I think of Greenbacks and Vintage 30's to be pretty mid-heavy. The G12T-75's are more scooped sounding but for some reason they sounded great with my DSL doing some AC/DC or early Def Leppard. 

AC/DC is really a good reference point. IMO the 1960 cab with T-75's sounds more like an Angus JCM800 kinda tone and the 425 Greenback cab sounds darker and more like Malcolm's tone. Think of "Shot Down in Flames". Malcolm does the intro, but you can really hear Angus' tone cut through when he comes in - much stronger upper mids. It's a lot brighter tone than Malcolm's.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> AC/DC is really a good reference point. IMO the 1960 cab with T-75's sounds more like an Angus JCM800 kinda tone and the 425 Greenback cab sounds darker and more like Malcolm's tone. Think of "Shot Down in Flames". Malcolm does the intro, but you can really hear Angus' tone cut through when he comes in - much stronger upper mids. It's a lot brighter tone than Malcolm's.



Tangible reference points like that is what I need.


----------



## RiverRatt

It should be mentioned that I haven't used the 425 with anything other than the Vintage Modern. I don't know how much of the tone difference to attribute to that. The KT66's do lend their own unique tone to the Vintage Modern. IMO they are smoother than the infamously mellow 6L6GC, at least in that amp.


----------



## brp

What's the G12M-70 like?
I get the impression this is a middle of the road Celestion. One for sale here on CL...
http://vancouver.en.craigslist.ca/nvn/msg/2682977827.html

I think that might be what was in my old Marshall 5010 Master Lead Combo but not sure.


----------



## mickeydg5

I can't say exactly what is going on in Shot Down in Flames as far as speakers go. I hear panning and differences in volume within the recording between the two guitars. Supposedly, but who knows for sure, they were both using Marshall 100 watt stacks.

As for the G12T75. They have a noticeable scoop starting at 800 through 1500 Hz and then smooth out at 3500 to 5000 and then drop. They have a nice low end drop too. I like them when paired up with other stuff like the Vintage 30 even though there is a 3db average difference.

*A note for all speaker buyers:* when pairing speakers, look at the decibels on the graphs, not just the average decibel rating on the specifications.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> What's the G12M-70 like?
> I get the impression this is a middle of the road Celestion. One for sale here on CL...
> Celestion G12M-70 speaker
> 
> I think that might be what was in my old Marshall 5010 Master Lead Combo but not sure.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I was looking at vids of this amp yesterday. The G12M-70 is indeed what I read it has in it. Pretty good sounding SS Marshall too.


----------



## brp

Yes it sounded great for crunchy stuff, not much clean headroom. Great tone for SS though. Just loud enough for jamming with a loud drummer as long as you wanted the preamp pretty much cranked.


----------



## solarburn

Let's take the MG outside and see if it breathes like tubes do...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP5qWh9Cqk0&feature=channel_video_title]Riffguy...powered by Ford - YouTube[/ame]

See how the tone changes just with mic position around the car...there is a warmer zone where it sounds real good. Right in front its a bit shrill.

Thought it be fun for you regulators to see hehe.


----------



## BluesRocker

This is tasty.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85KfMu8AFcE&feature=related]BLACK COUNTRY COMMUNION - No Quarter ( Wolverhampton Civic Hall 29 Dec 2010) 2 camera edit - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Let's take the MG outside and see if it breathes like tubes do...
> 
> Riffguy...powered by Ford - YouTube
> 
> See how the tone changes just with mic position around the car...there is a warmer zone where it sounds real good. Right in front its a bit shrill.
> 
> Thought it be fun for you regulators to see hehe.



LOL! Where did you find that? It reminds me of a Nashville Craigslist deal last summer on the Day of the Locusts. Cody can vouch for that - he was there, too. Dude I was dealing with was a prick. He hooked a 15w tube amp up to his power inverter and complained because it was noisy. The dude in that video had to be using a generator or an extension cord. A power inverter isn't grounded and is noisy as hell with a guitar amp. The guy pissed me off but I let him go. I went to GC and they allowed me $125 for the amp which is what I was asking for it anyway. I came out of there with a TS-9 and a Boss GE-7. I was happy enough. I've used the Tube Screamer way more than I ever did the little tube amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since you guys know more about this stuff than me, I have a guy who wants to sell me a Carver power amp and a couple of JBL bookcase type speakers for $85. This is really something I've been looking for in my music room. I heard the amp and speakers and they will crank. The JBL cabs feel like they weigh 15 lbs or so. Does this sound like a good deal? Can I even slave the power amp to the output of a Macintosh computer? All it has is a headphone out jack.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bill, how's it going with the EL84's? Had a chance to try them out yet?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> LOL! Where did you find that? It reminds me of a Nashville Craigslist deal last summer on the Day of the Locusts. Cody can vouch for that - he was there, too. Dude I was dealing with was a prick. He hooked a 15w tube amp up to his power inverter and complained because it was noisy. The dude in that video had to be using a generator or an extension cord. A power inverter isn't grounded and is noisy as hell with a guitar amp. The guy pissed me off but I let him go. I went to GC and they allowed me $125 for the amp which is what I was asking for it anyway. I came out of there with a TS-9 and a Boss GE-7. I was happy enough. I've used the Tube Screamer way more than I ever did the little tube amp.



I stumbled across his youtube page. guy has a bunch of vids and killer Marshall amps/man cave. Plays like a MOFO too! He's a fellow "Canack" so Bill can claim him for another Canadian that can rip it up!LOL


----------



## solarburn

Yeah what's the verdict on those Sittards?


----------



## BluesRocker

Looks like I am going to pick me up a new wah pedal. Which is why I have my Cantrell up for sale in my 800 classified thread.

Soon I will preorder it.
Joe Bonamassa Signature Dunlop Cry Baby Pedal Pre-Sale: Joe Bonamassa Store


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, I would have given you a Dunlop CryBaby next time I saw you. I'll admit I'm not well-schooled in wah pedals. I've owned a Vox 847 and a CryBaby (still have it) and they all sound about the same to me. I don't mean this as a personal attack at all, I'm just talking wah pedals in general. Do all the signature pedals really bring anything new to the table, or are they just pretty much the same as what I grew up with with maybe a slightly different voicing?


----------



## BluesRocker

Well the Cantrell wah is really dark. It is pretty sweet. It has a knob on the side which actually adjusts the Treble response at the toe end. You can have it bassy or trebley. 

The Joe B is modeled after a '67. McCoy wah basically. It has the Halo inductor which is by far the best out there, and it has a true by pass switch to where you can go back to non TB


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Man, I would have given you a Dunlop CryBaby next time I saw you. I'll admit I'm not well-schooled in wah pedals. I've owned a Vox 847 and a CryBaby (still have it) and they all sound about the same to me. I don't mean this as a personal attack at all, I'm just talking wah pedals in general. Do all the signature pedals really bring anything new to the table, or are they just pretty much the same as what I grew up with with maybe a slightly different voicing?



Well I had 3 cause I loves me some Wah. Now I have 2. All three had different voicings and that came through. Had a Budda Wah and have a Zakk Wylde and Mark Tremonti wahs. The MT works best with high gain applications. The ZW makes held notes scream and sing with that half cocked wah sound. A good hard rock wah and good on cleans. Too bad its not True bypass.


----------



## BluesRocker

I never liked the ZW. It just seemed to sound whoopy at the heel. Just real flubby. I didnt like that.. Thats the main reason I sold my MXR CAE wah.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> I never liked the ZW. It just seemed to sound whoopy at the heel. Just real flubby. I didnt like that.. Thats the main reason I sold my MXR CAE wah.



I was using it like he does to get that cool tone on bent held notes and it works awesome for that. That's about it though. I wasn't really into the rest of its range. Both of them sit for now and I love wahs. I should sell my Tremonti cause it is excellent with high gain settings which many wahs aren't.

Think my next one will be a Keeley modded Cry Baby. Since I'm more into mid gain tones.


----------



## BluesRocker

Im not saying this cause I have one for sale.. But get a Cantrell they work great with high gain, at least I think so


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> Since you guys know more about this stuff than me, I have a guy who wants to sell me a Carver power amp and a couple of JBL bookcase type speakers for $85. This is really something I've been looking for in my music room. I heard the amp and speakers and they will crank. The JBL cabs feel like they weigh 15 lbs or so. Does this sound like a good deal? Can I even slave the power amp to the output of a Macintosh computer? All it has is a headphone out jack.


Sounds like a great deal to me. Those Carver amps were supposed to be the shit back in the day and some small JBLs should be nice. If it is all in good condition I'd jump on it. The headphone out of a computer should be able to drive the amp OK, worst case get a small preamp of some kind....


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Im not saying this cause I have one for sale.. But get a Cantrell they work great with high gain, at least I think so



I'm not a high gain player anymore. It would be a waste on me. I hear good things about it though.


----------



## BluesRocker

Well, I dont play high gain either. But I ditched that super modded CAE wah for it. lol If that says anything


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Well, I dont play high gain either. But I ditched that super modded CAE wah for it. lol If that says anything



I hear its real throaty...me no have money...musn't listen to Cody...LOL!


----------



## BluesRocker

Lol, I dont have any money either. Broke college student. It sucks being poor


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Bill, how's it going with the EL84's? Had a chance to try them out yet?



I'm going to be putting them in tomorrow. Probably compare them with the EL84's that Marty gave me too.
Maybe I'll get a clip together at some point of the NT retubed and you guys can let me know what you think.



That Carver/JBL deal sounds pretty damn good, provided all the speakers are in decent shape. Are these JBL shielded near field monitors? It sound like they could be...


Re: Wahs. I also have a Vox V847 but w/ some mods, red fasel inductor & true bypass. Also have a Crybaby. Each has their own strengths and weakness, which I prefer depends on what I'm looking for.
I must say I'd like one with a more throaty, mid-strong character but that doesn't cost alot.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> That Carver/JBL deal sounds pretty damn good, provided all the speakers are in decent shape. Are these JBL shielded near field monitors? It sound like they could be...


 
Yeah, I'm thinking I'll probably do it if I can scrape up some cash. I have no idea about shielding, but I can put them far enough away from any magnetic fields that they should be fine either way. These are going on either side of the room, not either side of the monitor! 

There's something wrong with the setup in the guy's shop - there's one channel that doesn't come through well unless you mess with the wiring for awhile. I think it's the connection between the preamp and power amp. The amp has two VU meters and when it's acting up the left meter isn't showing any signal at all. If he'll let me bring it back if it doesn't work I'll probably pick it up. Those little JBL speakers sound huge. Every time I go in the little indoor antique mall (junk store) to check it out, the guy always plays Rockin' Me by Steve Miller. He's an older black guy named Clarence who everybody calls Moose. He's a good dude. I just gave him a trunkload of old Pioneer stereo equipment that I couldn't get going. Good stuff, like a Spec1 preamp and the matching amp, eq and expander that came with it, that cool Pioneer rack mount gear with the brushed aluminum front. I'm hoping that may sweeten the price.


----------



## brp

Actually I forgot about the Morley wah I have because the treadle action has been broken for a long time. I preferred it to both the V847 and the Crybaby. Unfortunately it's plagued with that terrible "fishing line" treadle design. I should get around to fixing it but in the meantime I still use it occasionally just as a filter.


----------



## rjtm

The reason I like crybaby's better than Morley wah's is because I think the Morley's are really uncomfortable to use compared to the Crybaby's which are smoother and easier under your foot


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I just gave him a trunkload of old Pioneer stereo equipment that I couldn't get going. Good stuff, like a Spec1 preamp and the matching amp, eq and expander that came with it, that cool Pioneer rack mount gear with the brushed aluminum front. I'm hoping that may sweeten the price.



:eek2: If you get any more vintage Pioneer equipment, let me know, high odds are my dad WILL buy it.

Fucking hell the SPEC- series is good equipment.


----------



## carrots

*



The New and Improved RiverRat*






* AVATAR MF MOD*


----------



## 61rocker

I wanted to chime in on the Cry Baby Wahs...I have owned a Thomas Organ Crybaby that I let get away from me it was great, I still have one later Pre Dunlap wah that needs to be gone over but works well, but about 6 months ago, I picked up a Stock basic Crybaby at GC in Little Rock for $40 and that thing sounds fantastic....it has a sweet spot in the middle of it and takes me back to that old Thomas Crybaby....Sometimes I hear recordings of players (and I mean big time players) that overuse the pedal....it works much better to me to catch a phrase and use the foot more subtle....working a Crybaby on every beat can really lose your solo and feel in my opinion...Morleys are also great to me...I knew a guy that had a Powerwah in the 70s that lived up to the name..I never tried a Vox...would like to....


----------



## RiverRatt

carrots said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> The New and Improved RiverRat*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * AVATAR MF MOD*



That's actually the one I used until last month. I just went back to it


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> :eek2: If you get any more vintage Pioneer equipment, let me know, high odds are my dad WILL buy it.
> 
> Fucking hell the SPEC- series is good equipment.



I went through it and not a single piece would power up. I had the Expander, tuner, preamp, power amp, and EQ. The aluminum fronts were probably worth more than the actual components. 

I can't decide if I want to go with the Carver/JBL setup or not. It would be great for recording. Sometimes I can't hear the computer speakers while I'm playing. When he powers up the Carver amp, it usually takes 5 minutes of fiddling to get it working right. I think it's the preamp that he's got the Carver slaved to. I watched the VU meters on the Carver while he was messing with it and the left channel needle didn't move when there wasn't anything coming through the speakers. It could be as simple as a new RCA cable. Damn those JBL's sound good!!! If it wasn't so close to Christmas I'd snap that stuff up in a heartbeat.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I went through it and not a single piece would power up. I had the Expander, tuner, preamp, power amp, and EQ. The aluminum fronts were probably worth more than the actual components.



Like I said, he'd probably be interested


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well I had 3 cause I loves me some Wah. Now I have 2. All three had different voicings and that came through. Had a Budda Wah and have a Zakk Wylde and Mark Tremonti wahs. The MT works best with high gain applications. The ZW makes held notes scream and sing with that half cocked wah sound. A good hard rock wah and good on cleans. Too bad its not True bypass.



I have played several, and this is one top for me






After using a Morley with switchless operation (step on it and it's on, step off it's off), optical movement (no pot to wear out or get dirty) and the wider more stable base compared to a Dunlop (not to mention the foot switchable variable contour option and built in line driver) I cant go back. It's really well suited to multiple tunings. You can use the standard setting for regular tunings and then use the contour switch (set to what you want with the external trim pot) for lower tunings. 

The only other wah I still have is my Korg "Mr Multi". These things are really cool if you can find em. It has a standard wah with an internal sweep trim pot, auto wah (you can set the rate with the foot pedal), and phase (again, setting the rate with the foot pedal) all in one. And it's true hardwired bypass.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I have played several, and this is one top for me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After using a Morley with switchless operation (step on it and it's on, step off it's off), optical movement (no pot to wear out or get dirty) and the wider more stable base compared to a Dunlop (not to mention the foot switchable variable contour option and built in line driver) I cant go back. It's really well suited to multiple tunings. You can use the standard setting for regular tunings and then use the contour switch (set to what you want with the external trim pot) for lower tunings.
> 
> The only other wah I still have is my Korg "Mr Multi". These things are really cool if you can find em. It has a standard wah with an internal sweep trim pot, auto wah (you can set the rate with the foot pedal), and phase (again, setting the rate with the foot pedal) all in one. And it's true hardwired bypass.



The Tremonti I have is the same way. It only has a gain pot on it though.


----------



## sccloser

I have one of those old Morley Power Fuzz Wah's...i bought it used in a pawn shop in San Diego around 1987. I think it was made about 1981. It is a big chrome one. Always sounded pretty good, though I hate the fuzz on it. It does have a long sweep to it, so you really have to rock your foot.


----------



## brp

I just put the Sittards through their paces for about an hour.
Amp sounds really great with them in there. Can't really say there's a huge difference from the CP JJ's without being able to instantaneously A/B them but it seems a little less bright to me than with the JJ's in the power section.
I'm actually able to tolerate boosting the highs a bit, something I would never do with the Sovteks.

One thing I know for sure is that my NT sounds a whole lot better than with the Sovteks. All the fizziness is gone and the amp seems to respond to eq tweaks better, especially in the mid to low end. Before it was sometimes like my GE-10 eq, the NT's tone stack and the tone knob on the SD-1 didn't do anything. Also seems to be a whole different amp when it comes to rolling back the guitar volume and tone pots.

That RFT/Sylvania combo in the preamp sounds great!

I think I'll now give those Raytheon BP EL84's a try, then maybe roll around some 12ax7's to see what the differences are from the RFT and Sylvania.

Thanks again for all your help and advice guys. I'm a NOS believer already!


----------



## brp

Holy crap this thing sounds good!

I didn't roll any more tubes, still the Sittards w/ RFT/Sylvania. Played for another hour and messed around with EQ, tried less gain more MV. Fantastic!

Dialing in an early Rush sound and circa Powerage AC/DC tones... LOVING IT!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good to hear it. Give those BP's a shot. I would like to hear your comments on those.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just listed my first wave of tubes in the classifieds. Check 'em out. They will be going on eBay by the middle of the week. I'm also planning to list a few more pairs of power tubes and some 12AX7's and 5751's later on in the week.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RATT-Never apologize to NUKE. You were right and he is an instigator. As ADWEX said, he knew that he was posting a hot topic.


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys, I got like 4 people saying they are gonna buy the 2204.. I hope someone pops up some money soon.


----------



## solarburn

brp said:


> Holy crap this thing sounds good!
> 
> I didn't roll any more tubes, still the Sittards w/ RFT/Sylvania. Played for another hour and messed around with EQ, tried less gain more MV. Fantastic!
> 
> Dialing in an early Rush sound and circa Powerage AC/DC tones... LOVING IT!



Glad its com'n to life Bill!

Where is your volume at? Should sound even better/richer when you get around 2pm. I like running it at 7.5 watts and the volume there, gain at about 3pm on the bright voicing. Also I will come close to maxing the volume and having the gain around 1pm for some cool midgain stuff. Hitting with a boost here sounds cool too. A cleaner saturation. Just another flavor is all. We got to mess around with it you know!LOL

Now that the fizz is gone and it warmer you get to dial it in all over again.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> RATT-Never apologize to NUKE. You were right and he is an instigator. As ADWEX said, he knew that he was posting a hot topic.



I really wasn't apologizing to that asshole. I was just saying I lost my cool. I meant everything I said. I just let myself get sucked into it. That's what was out of line. I thought Blackie was the scourge of the backstage for awhile, but I friended Blackie. I like his style. Nuke and his type are the main thing wrong with this forum right now and I don't think people are going to stand for it much longer.

I don't want to get on Adwex's bad side, either. I wouldn't want his job, having to play referee with that bunch. I don't want to have contributed to that.


----------



## brp

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Glad its com'n to life Bill!
> 
> Where is your volume at? Should sound even better/richer when you get around 2pm. I like running it at 7.5 watts and the volume there, gain at about 3pm on the bright voicing. Also I will come close to maxing the volume and having the gain around 1pm for some cool midgain stuff. Hitting with a boost here sounds cool too. A cleaner saturation. Just another flavor is all. We got to mess around with it you know!LOL
> 
> Now that the fizz is gone and it warmer you get to dial it in all over again.









Yep. Lots more fun to tweak now.

I usually stick to the triode 7.5watt mode and have the volume around 12 o'clock and gain around 2-3pm. I'll go to 2pm on the volume only at the right time of day or when the I know the neighbours are away.
That would be my normal when not really looking for tons of crunch. It's a great classic rock sound and I'm loving these tubes man.

Also using my OFA SD-1 as a clean boost and it sounds great.
I'm using a 10 band EQ as well and that really seems to help, varying boost at 500hz, slight cut at 250hz, 2k and 4 k.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Guys, I got like 4 people saying they are gonna buy the 2204.. I hope someone pops up some money soon.



Cody, you know if I had the money I'd jump on it. I've got about 3 months of hard times coming my way, though. Advertising sales suck hard in the winter. About the middle of March it'll start to pick up. I'm trying to sell stuff right now, not buy anything.

I do have some positive news... our county newspaper, which we started 3 years ago, is one of three finalists for Small Business of the Year! I put a lot of hours and a lot of worry into that business, and I'm finally optimistic about our chances. That would be one helluva boost to our credibility. The only other newspaper in the county, which has been in business for over 100 years, sucks major ass, and it looks like we are in the perfect position to put them under.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Yep. Lots more fun to tweak now.
> 
> I usually stick to the triode 7.5watt mode and have the volume around 12 o'clock and gain around 2-3pm. I'll go to 2pm on the volume only at the right time of day or when the I know the neighbours are away.
> That would be my normal when not really looking for tons of crunch. It's a great classic rock sound and I'm loving these tubes man.
> 
> Also using my OFA SD-1 as a clean boost and it sounds great.
> I'm using a 10 band EQ as well and that really seems to help, varying boost at 500hz, slight cut at 250hz, 2k and 4 k.



Dude, that sounds a lot like me when I get my amp dialed in. When the tubes are really cookin' and it's sounding right, I'll get lost in it and play for hours. I have to make myself quit, and still I want to play (like now) even more. It's not something that bowls you over, it's more like when you realize that the sound that's always been in your head is now coming out of your speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Get NUKE to contribute articles for them. Then they would really go under fast.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> it's more like when you realize that the sound that's always been in your head is now coming out of your speakers.




That's exactly what today was like for me. I played until my arm was cramping up and the sound was essentially perfect. I would have kept going if I could. I wanted to start doing some recording of it but had to leave unfortunately.

I've had a few guitar parts waiting to be recorded, waiting until I got these tubes, because last time I did any tracking, I was getting that stiff and bright sound. I'm going to be loving it now I think.

Still gotta try out the BP Raytheons, going to do that through the weeknights.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've got a few high performance preamp tubes for sale. These will really boost the front end of you amp. No need for any OD pedals.


----------



## MM54

Looks like a space heater


----------



## MartyStrat54

It probably isn't real. Maybe a promo for something.


----------



## MM54

Definitely not a real tube. Still looks cool


----------



## RiverRatt

It would look cool with a Tesla coil built into it and more realistic looking guts.


----------



## brp

I take it you guys didn't see this that diesect20022000 posted:


Mullard EL34 MONSTER vintage brown base amplifier vacuum valve tube - YouTube


SO COOL! I want one of these.


----------



## solarburn

That's cool! Keep you warm on a cold night or work as a bug light...


----------



## brp

Same guy made this one first and then did the Mullard EL84

MESA BOOGIE Dual Rectifier 6L6 GC MONSTER Amplifier Vacuum Valve Tube - YouTube


----------



## BluesRocker

hey guys


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've got a few high performance preamp tubes for sale. These will really boost the front end of you amp. No need for any OD pedals.


 That should go well in my V2 to follow that tube I posted a while back...now for a PI......


----------



## mickeydg5

What would be great looking is two of them big suckers hooked in stereo with lights pulsating to the music, like the old speakers from the seventies. Cannot think of who made the speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was stationed in Taiwan when "color organs" were popular. Do you remember them? They were in like 16-inch tall wooden boxes with a prism glass cover and inside were different colored lights that were triggered by the bass, mids and treble. You just parallel wired them to your speakers.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I got an email from Joey today. Got this...


----------



## brp

Yes, my older brother used to build color organs and we had them in our room as I was growing up.

He even made some more elaborate custom ones (aka not from a kit) that had manual relays and all kinds of unique one-off electronics.
When we hit the teen years, everyone used to hang around our house to listen to music cuz we had the light show.
All of that inspired me to get into music, live production, DJ'ing etc.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty, I got an email from Joey today. Got this...



Wow dude. I thought you got that amp months ago.


----------



## BluesRocker

Nope, still waiting on it. He is having trouble with keeping the power scaling stable


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I emailed Joey and got his address. I cleared out some drawers of amp building stuff that I want to send him. 

You know my feeling about that amp scaling. You could have done without it and got a power brake and you would have that puppy by now.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I know. But I have waited this far, so I cant really tell him to stop and send it back. He's got all the scaling stuff in there. He said he had another heat sink on order, cause it was a bit too hot than what he wanted it to be.


----------



## MM54

I'm envious of you guys with your drawers of amp building stuff 

I have little to scavenge from most of the time, and it prevents such possibilities of frankenstein amps


----------



## BluesRocker

Thats not mine Matt, that is Joey Voltage's


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I'm envious of you guys with your drawers of amp building stuff
> 
> I have little to scavenge from most of the time, and it prevents such possibilities of frankenstein amps



I just found out this weekend that the Stancor OT I posted on here ages ago was used in Trainwreck amps and they go for $100-$150 on eBay. COOL. I'm trying to raise some cash for the holidays so I'm selling everything that's in the way (except the kids).






I still want to know what the 250 and 500 ohm taps were for?


----------



## MM54

Nice! I really need to stumble into more old tube equipment to gut for parts... being at school though that's very limited for the time being. In the summer I always plan on hitting all the yard sales etc, but never seem to have time to


----------



## RiverRatt

The antique/junk store where I found that Bogen record player still has some old Philco stuff and maybe a few pieces of Army Signal Corps gear. He has a box of those old panel mount meters, mostly mV and mA but there are some different ones. It looks like the kind of stuff you'd see on the instrument cluster of a B-17. His shop has antiques in the front. The back is a quonset hut stacked full of old electronics gear and junk. I've been through it at least 3 or 4 times and I still find cool new stuff every time I go.

Edited for continuity: The Bogen record player came from this shop. That's where the Stancor OT came from, along with a nice pair of 5881's and some 6SL7's.


----------



## MM54

Nice. I remember you talking about that place before, I really need to find somewhere like that around here


----------



## RiverRatt

Dude has an O-scope but I don't know enough about them to even sound intelligent. IIRC it says something on the unit about it being some sort of picture tube tester?

I like pulling something out of a junk box and finding out it's worth some coin. The Bogen had a Stancor PT in it as well as a choke. The PT looked to be fried. It looked like it squirted a lot of beeswax into the bottom of the chassis. The choke might still be good. I've got more crap around here than I know what to do with.


----------



## MM54

What a fortunate problem


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 250 and 500 ohm taps are used in conjunction with 25 and 70 volt audio distribution systems.

I also did a search and found this. If you have your basic illegal low wattage AM station you need to use the following with your modulator.



> Notice that in this case, it is necessary to match the amplifier's output winding of 16 ohms to the 500 Ohm input of the modulator. This was done by using a spare output transformer that had taps for 0-4-8-16-125-250-500 Ohms. Normally a 500 Ohm line from the speech amplifier to the modulator is balanced about ground. The common (0) output of the amp is grounded, causing one side of the 500 Ohm line to the modulator to also be grounded, but this has not caused any issues while testing the modulator.



Apparently you use the 250 and 500 ohm taps for (AM) modulators. Here is the page I got this from.

Testing AM / High-Level Plate Modulators Independent of the Transmitter


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, the musical light shows. Those would mesmerize people, for a little while anyway.

Ok, what is the Joey power scaling all about?


----------



## MartyStrat54

He modified Cody's 1959 with a power scale, but he is having trouble with it being stable.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh, power scaling, that is what he is calling it.
Sounds like Wilder's volume attenuation stuff, same as Marshall's electronic power attenuator (EPA).
Ye olde voltage variation and volume control it is. He,he.


----------



## RiverRatt

RiverRatt said:


> I just found out this weekend that the Stancor OT I posted on here ages ago was used in Trainwreck amps and they go for $100-$150 on eBay. COOL. I'm trying to raise some cash for the holidays so I'm selling everything that's in the way (except the kids).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I still want to know what the 250 and 500 ohm taps were for?



I think this is the first time I've ever quoted myself. When I checked my email this morning, I had a notice that someone whose name rhymes with Fen Kischer had objected to my use of another name for a railway accident in the description of the transformer. About all I said was that you could build your clone of one of these "locomotive disasters" and they pulled my listing with one day left and like a dozen people watching. No offense to anyone affiliated with the person behind the name I alluded to, but this is the first time the dead have taken offense at one of my eBay auctions.

Trouble ahead, trouble behind, and you know that notion just crossed my mind.


----------



## solarburn

You know what's funny is Ken Fischer could really careless. He told me so.

I'm off to bed...


----------



## mickeydg5

Maybe Stancor had it pulled. Companies are funny about copyrights and associations.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dear jam_66_tn,

You recently listed the following listing:

260909490216 - Stancor A3801 Output Transformer 6600 ohm 35W Trainwreck tested working

The listing was removed because it violated eBay policy. 

The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, Kenneth Fischer - Trainwreck, notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law. 

Your item was removed because of a request we received from Kenneth Fischer - Trainwreck, a member of our Verified Rights Owner Program (VeRO), asking us to remove the item for:

- Listing(s) contains unlawful comparison to trademark owner's brand name.

If you have additional questions or concerns on why your item was removed, please contact Kenneth Fischer - Trainwreck directly at:

sesilbert@xxxxxxxx.xxx

Please allow 7 days for Kenneth Fischer - Trainwreck to reply to you. If after 7 days you haven't received a response, please contact us by simply replying to this email. 

All listing fees associated with the removed item(s) have been credited back to your account.

Your listing was reported for using a brand name without the right's owner's permission.

It's against the law to use someone else's trademark -- the unique sign, name, word, phrase, logo, or symbol used to identify a product or service -- without their okay. It can also confuse buyers about the source of your item or your relationship with the trademark owner.

You can use a company's brand name or logo in your listing description only if the item you're selling was made or authorized by that company.


----------



## 61rocker

Wow....what about all those parts I see that cite Gibson, Fender, Marshall, Vox...etc....sounds like Trainwreck has a little something up the butt....


----------



## mickeydg5

I see. They may not want you to use their trademark in your ad. Also it states "Trainwreck tested working", oops!

They may not associate with Stancor any longer as well.

At least you got the refund.

Maybe you can leave the name out of the title line and use associations in the description (like replacement for or Trainwreck Express type transformer, blah, blahh). They may gripe about that too now that they have your name though.

Happy Ebaying!


----------



## RiverRatt

I wasn't aware that Trainwrecks are still being produced. Apparently there's one guy in the world who was a friend of Ken Fischer and knows the secret mojo involved in making a Trainwreck amp. They are currently filling backorders from Ken's waiting list. 

Yeah, the wording in the auction title may have been a little off. That's one of the many things I don't like about eBay. You're forced to speak like Tonto to get your auction title in the space provided and sometimes it doesn't come across like you meant it to. 

BTW, that auction title was taken almost verbatim from a completed auction that went for $150. There were some other words there too that I had to pull because even though this OT is used by the hi-fi crowd, you can't call it that because the hi-fi Stancor transformers had a different part number. Do we have an emoticon of somebody pulling their hair out in frustration?


----------



## mickeydg5

Trainwreck is licensed to Komet and Kenderick, who may not produce them, does service them.

Trainwreck also is still in business selling the same amps built by a ghost builder, protege.


----------



## demonufo

HEY MARTY.....

You selling them blue-type low sensibility tubes yet?

I want to sound 'vintage great'!




I wish I knew exactly what it is that I just wrote.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hope to get some soon. When I do, I'll send you a notice. These tubes are like LACE Sensor pickups. They come in all colors. I think red is the hottest, but maybe it's burgundy. It's not really the tube that makes the difference, it's the label. Some of them may be too loud for the preamp.

Also, I had to comment on another thread about 15-inch bass speakers for guitar use. One guy commented that the size of the speaker required more power, that you would have to use a cranked 50 watt amp to get it to sound good. If you find the thread, feel free to comment on my post.

Found the link.

http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/36205-opinion-15-speakers.html


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I wasn't aware that Trainwrecks are still being produced. Apparently there's one guy in the world who was a friend of Ken Fischer and knows the secret mojo involved in making a Trainwreck amp. They are currently filling backorders from Ken's waiting list.
> 
> Yeah, the wording in the auction title may have been a little off. That's one of the many things I don't like about eBay. You're forced to speak like Tonto to get your auction title in the space provided and sometimes it doesn't come across like you meant it to.
> 
> BTW, that auction title was taken almost verbatim from a completed auction that went for $150. There were some other words there too that I had to pull because even though this OT is used by the hi-fi crowd, you can't call it that because the hi-fi Stancor transformers had a different part number. Do we have an emoticon of somebody pulling their hair out in frustration?



Dr Z and KF collaborated on an amp before Fischer passed on and now Dr Z has the Z Wreck in production...

Starting in 2006 Brad Paisley contacted Dr Z about building another amp. After talking about the design and the desired outcome Z asked his friend Ken Fisher to lend a hand. Dr Z built up the prototype amp and sent it off to Ken. Ken did his thing to it and sent it back…including naming the amp the Z Wreck. After a few more tweaks the amp was sent off to Brad and it has become a mainstay in his rig since 2006. When Ken passed away at the end of ‘06 Dr Z put the amp on a shelf and walked away.

Over the past few years the Z Wreck was mentioned by Brad in various interviews and appeared on a few TV shows and of course quite a few album tracks. Dr Z got numerous requests to put the amp into production, but always declined. Fast forward to May 5th 2010 and the Nashville flood. Brad’s original Z Wreck was not harmed in the flood, but all of his road amps were destroyed. Dr Z quickly built 2 replacement Z Wrecks for Brad as the show must go on. This got him thinking…why should such a fine sounding amp be left only for one person to play? With encouragement from Brad to release the amp Dr Z went over the notes he and Ken had exchanged via fax. Dr Z took into account all of the layout and design tweaks he could incorporate and laid the amp out on a clean sheet of paper with an all new aluminum chassis and birch head cabinet. Click here to view the fax.

Every component on the Z Wreck was placed with the utmost attention to short wire lengths and increased separation between the front end and the output section. The heart of the amp is the output transformer designed by Ken for Dr Z in the early 2000s. Also on board is a newly designed power transformer which incorporates a multi tapped secondary that allows for 2 different plate voltage settings: Comfort and Speed. Speed yields a strong attack with increased clarity and dynamic headroom. Every note rings clear in the clean settings and they absolutely scream when the amp is pushed to its natural overdriven voice. The comfort setting drops the plate voltage down for more of a vintage feel. The softer response and overall sweetness of the comfort setting really make it difficult to put the guitar down.

The touch response of the Z Wreck is unequalled. Settings below 12:00 on the volume yield a rich clean sound with no signs of harshness. A 12 string Ric will be right at home for mid 60s Liverpool bliss. Once past 12:00 on the volume you can dial in excellent crunch all the way up to full blooming sustained drive sounds. Does the Z Wreck ROCK? YES!!! Does the Z Wreck TWANG? YES!!! The Z Wreck will deliver exactly what your hands and guitar give it. With the amp volume past noon you can roll your guitar volume back for articulate full bodied clean sounds and turn it up full for excellent drive. The Z Wreck truly is a plug and play amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Great read.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I am thinking about snatching up an explorer. But I must know are they neck heavy?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not Marty, but I'll give you an unqualified NO. Why do you think Clapton cut the ass end off of his? That slab of wood is heavy. It's like playing a small table.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - I think Explorers are one of Gibson's best designs. You're just going to have to play one and see if it suits you. IMO it's not as bad as trying to get used to playing a Flying V, but it's like you have to figure out where your right arm needs to be.


----------



## BluesRocker

I hated sitting down and playing my flying V. Ive never owned an explorer but I have played many. I just found on on ebay for 700 with case and the 500T pickup has been changed out with a Dimarzio SD


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I may have over-exaggerated a bit. They probably balance better than any of Gibson's other odd body shapes except maybe the reverse Firebird. That big upper bout does feel awkward to me, though.


----------



## BluesRocker

Im torn between one of the new 50s tribute lps with humbuckers, an SG with p90s, a white usa strat or an explorer


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I like how my Explorer feels, but it ain't no Strat. It has pretty good balance, but it is a bit bottom heavy. The main thing I didn't like about my Explorer was the pickups. I just did not like the 500 in the bridge. I switched over to a proven pair of DiMarzio consisting of the Air Norton and Air Zone. The SD is probably a nice choice as well. It works well in mahogany bodies.

Last I heard, you were jonesing for an SG with vintage tremolo.

$700 ain't bad if it is cherry. If you get it, put an Air Norton in the neck. It works very well in that guitar.


----------



## BluesRocker

I am jonesing for that Sg but I dont have that type of money. 

The explorer is white. Here it is.

09 Gibson Explorer Electric Guitar White w/ Original Hard Shell Case Les Paul SG | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Im torn between one of the new 50s tribute lps with humbuckers, an SG with p90s, a white usa strat or an explorer



I haven't really paid much attention to those LP's. It took me awhile to figure out that the body "binding" was really the unfinished maple cap. Pretty cool.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't really paid much attention to those LP's. It took me awhile to figure out that the body "binding" was really the unfinished maple cap. Pretty cool.



Yeah. That was the first thing that grabbed my attention.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow. Free shipping. That's a pretty nice one. I don't know about the 1968 reissue part.

I feel you could get $700 out of it if you didn't like it.

I bought mine I think in the winter of 2009, but I think it was an unsold 2008 model.


----------



## BluesRocker

I think he meant 76 reissue. But I believe that all the standard explorers are. 

Think I should snag it?


----------



## brp

I really like the Satin Honeyburst Dark 50's tribute LPS.
Great choice for someone who wants a Gibson with the look of a higher end LP.
I really want one, but my next guitar really should be a Tele.

I'd actually rather get a Vintage than the 50's Tribute though, can't seem to find one around here.


----------



## BluesRocker

Tele's are nice. Alan got mine through a trade. I have forgotten what the trade involved. I think it was a 1960B cab. 

Anyways, teles are nice. I liked mine but it just wasnt my cup of tea


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that is up to you. As I said, I think you could get $700 for it if it don't work out for you. If I was looking for an Explorer, this would be a tempting deal, especially the no shipping charges.

Here's mine. I have the zebra Air Norton and Air Zone in it now. It was a heavy metal guitar with the 500, now it is a hot blues, classic rock guitar.


----------



## BluesRocker

Ok, with that super d in the bridge, what would be a good neck pickup?? I like my neck position to be a bit on the brighter side to give me a glassy tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

See post #12731. I suggested an Air Norton.

Air Norton

Now this is brighter, but will work great with the SD.

PAF Pro® | DiMarzio

This will make for a hotter guitar. Is that what you want? With the SD in the bridge, it sort of makes it a hot guitar anyway. If you want a brighter neck, go with the PAF PRO.


----------



## BluesRocker

OK. I will check them out. I tried to buy it but for some reason ebay wouldnt let me do it. So I have to transfer the funds from my bank to my paypal account. Dang wieners.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Tele's are nice. Alan got mine through a trade. I have forgotten what the trade involved. I think it was a 1960B cab.
> 
> Anyways, teles are nice. I liked mine but it just wasnt my cup of tea



Okay, I can remember this one. I traded you a Tweaker, 1960B and a 1966B for a Telecaster and a 425A cab. I think when the dust cleared we both did OK. I know I'm digging that 425A cab. Greenbacks are the schiznit. 

Sad to say the Tele is on the chopping block. I needed cash worse than I needed the Tele. I played it along with my Strat for several weeks and the Strat won out. That is strange for me because I've always liked Tele's, but that Strat is a special guitar. You ever pick one up and know it's a keeper? That crazy looking strat is my favorite Fender ever. The Texas Specials and the superbly finished neck with a rosewood board just speak to me. I can get about any tone I need by working the pickup selector and the tone knobs. The most important factor: I can sit down and start playing that guitar and get lost for hours. That's what I'm talking about.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, that was the trade.. lol It was something bunched up like that.. Hey how do EL34s sound in the tweaker.. I havent tried it yet


----------



## mickeydg5

The Z-Wreck is very interesting. I saw a bit of the write up but did not look for samples.

That is a nice looking Explorer.


----------



## brp

Oh just a follow-up.
I got a call from the Post Office today, who promised to never again let their idiots leave stuff on my step. The Manager said he had spoken w/ their Contractors about my issue.

And yes that's a mand nice looking Explorer.


Alan, Are you talking about the MIM 2010 Tele in your sig? Is it maple board?


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah its maple brp.


----------



## brp

I'm curious how the newer MIM Tele compares with the Classic Vibes.
I'm on the fence on which way to go, leaning CV unless the MIM is much better.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I'm not Marty, but I'll give you an unqualified NO. Why do you think Clapton cut the ass end off of his? That slab of wood is heavy. It's like playing a small table.
> 
> I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that - I think Explorers are one of Gibson's best designs. You're just going to have to play one and see if it suits you. IMO it's not as bad as trying to get used to playing a Flying V, but it's like you have to figure out where your right arm needs to be.



I had an explorer and a V. I agree about the right arm with the explorer. I got used to the V really quickly. I liked the V because it was light and resonant. But when I got a good SG, I let the V go.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> I'm curious how the newer MIM Tele compares with the Classic Vibes.
> I'm on the fence on which way to go, leaning CV unless the MIM is much better.



IMHO, and also from the advice of a friend who worked for a Fender dealer, buy one of the Classic Vibe pine Telecasters while you can. The Tele me & Cody are talking about is a 2010 MIM Standard in white and a maple freboard. It is an great sounding and great playing instrument, but yes, I think the Classic Vibe series appeals to me more. I've never been a fan of the Squier series in general, but this one can make a believer out of you.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I had an explorer and a V. I agree about the right arm with the explorer. I got used to the V really quickly. I liked the V because it was light and resonant. But when I got a good SG, I let the V go.



Yeah Vic, I saw a great post you made earlier about Explorers. I started to quote and post it but I was hoping you'd stop by. Remember the thread?


----------



## brp

I've played the maple board CV and was quite impressed.
Wasn't really noticing alot of difference from the MIM but it's pretty hard to get a good evaluation in at the music store.

I think the butterscotch has a different pickup than the "vintage blonde".
I'm very likely grabbing one at the post xmas sale.
Although I'm not really crazy about either color but looks are not that important, I just want something with single coils and maple board in my collection.


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

Was it this one...



> Re: What is a Gibson Explorer like to play?
> I've played them. They play well and balance pretty well when standing. I would not really compare it with a V, though. One thing that sticks in my mind is that I though the way the the body of the guitar sometimes rubbed on the elbow of my right arm was kinda awkward/strange to me.
> They sound great. I have been thinking of trying one again.


----------



## sccloser

Man. I ate way too much Mexican food tonight...which reminds me, where is our buddy Dark Fart....


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Alan,
> 
> Was it this one...



Yup. Apparently the right arm thing bothers several people.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> IMHO, and also from the advice of a friend who worked for a Fender dealer, buy one of the Classic Vibe pine Telecasters while you can. The Tele me & Cody are talking about is a 2010 MIM Standard in white and a maple freboard. It is an great sounding and great playing instrument, but yes, I think the Classic Vibe series appeals to me more. I've never been a fan of the Squier series in general, but this one can make a believer out of you.



My Strat is a Classic Vibe 60's. I like it and I don't feel bad when I knick it or smudge it or knock it over...I did.

Got mine for $300 when they first hit the stores. I'm going to put a Carvin neck on it with SS frets. I shave frets when I bend...even when they're polished.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that is up to you. As I said, I think you could get $700 for it if it don't work out for you. If I was looking for an Explorer, this would be a tempting deal, especially the no shipping charges.
> 
> Here's mine. I have the zebra Air Norton and Air Zone in it now. It was a heavy metal guitar with the 500, now it is a hot blues, classic rock guitar.



I don't like quilt tops usually but that's a hot xplorer!

It should be a blues/rocker!


----------



## rjtm

Marty, how do you like the Air Norton/Air Zones? I'm thinking of upgrading my LP with new p'ups and I'm looking for pickups for 80's hard rock/metal (nothing too metal, metallica is the heaviest, ZZ top is the lightest)


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are a great proven pair. The Air Norton was designed as a bridge pickup, but they soon discovered it was a really cool neck pickup. It can provide a great many tones and it has nice harmonics.

The Air Zone is rated as a medium output pickup, yet it has a DCR of 17.49 and 323mV of output. It will push the front end of any high gain amp. Very articulate. Has great sensitivity to pick attack and sweet sustain. Since it is an "Air" design, there is less string pull. I will say that the Air Zone has got a thick midrange and strong bass. In my Strat, it turned it into a much thicker sounding tone. In the Explorer, it is warmer due to the mahogany body. This would be a similar tone in the Les Paul. The Air Norton and Air Zone sound very sweet in the Explorer, so I expect the same in the Les Paul. The Explorer came with the 500T in the bridge and was a hot pickup, but it was raspy sounding. After much research and trying out about six DiMarzio pickups, I decided to take a chance with the Air Zone. It was a home run. It turned my guitar into a hot blues and classic rock guitar. This will handle the ZZ Top and probably the Metallica. A lot depends on what amp you are using and the quality of your V1 tube. Of course, you can always use a pedal if you need a little more grunt.

In closing, I went away from the really hot passive pickups. I found that you can get a lot better tone with the medium output pickups. Paul Gilbert in the past ten years has used lower gain pickups and look at his sound. He switched, because lower gain pickups are more articulate and pick sensitive. I get a really clean tone with the Air Norton and plenty of pop with the Air Zone. These may not be what you are looking for, but I am really happy with them.


----------



## rjtm

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are a great proven pair. The Air Norton was designed as a bridge pickup, but they soon discovered it was a really cool neck pickup. It can provide a great many tones and it has nice harmonics.
> 
> The Air Zone is rated as a medium output pickup, yet it has a DCR of 17.49 and 323mV of output. It will push the front end of any high gain amp. Very articulate. Has great sensitivity to pick attack and sweet sustain. Since it is an "Air" design, there is less string pull. I will say that the Air Zone has got a thick midrange and strong bass. In my Strat, it turned it into a much thicker sounding tone. In the Explorer, it is warmer due to the mahogany body. This would be a similar tone in the Les Paul. The Air Norton and Air Zone sound very sweet in the Explorer, so I expect the same in the Les Paul. The Explorer came with the 500T in the bridge and was a hot pickup, but it was raspy sounding. After much research and trying out about six DiMarzio pickups, I decided to take a chance with the Air Zone. It was a home run. It turned my guitar into a hot blues and classic rock guitar. This will handle the ZZ Top and probably the Metallica. A lot depends on what amp you are using and the quality of your V1 tube. Of course, you can always use a pedal if you need a little more grunt.
> 
> In closing, I went away from the really hot passive pickups. I found that you can get a lot better tone with the medium output pickups. Paul Gilbert in the past ten years has used lower gain pickups and look at his sound. He switched, because lower gain pickups are more articulate and pick sensitive. I get a really clean tone with the Air Norton and plenty of pop with the Air Zone. These may not be what you are looking for, but I am really happy with them.



. Ok thanks Marty. For me its the Air Zone/Norton vs. the Duncan 59n/Custom 5 b mix, the Duncan jb, an MHD pickup, or a boutique pickup (which I havent started looking into, but I am considering them).


----------



## rjtm

By the way I'm using a Jubilee with a tung-sol 12ax7 in V1


----------



## MartyStrat54

You might also look at this.

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/36227-best-80s-rock-pick-up-gibson-les-paul-classic.html


----------



## rjtm

Yeah, I've been looking at this thread, and I think I might be considering Gibson pickups. Thanks though. I'm going to check out some of them and get back to you.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Yup. Apparently the right arm thing bothers several people.


 
The other guitar player in my band has an Explorer...he loves it, but doesn't play it as much these days, it's an 86 model and is a little different, the volume and tone knobs are layed out different and it's Alpine White....it's got the original Dirty Fingers Pups in it and it Rawks...About the Right arm thing, I have a Firebird and it took a little getting used to cause it's neck heavy...but I can use my right elbow to help hold it in place, and finding the right adjustment on my guitar strap helps alot too....


----------



## RiverRatt

Ok, my Walmart 19" display is freaking out. It does great for about 30 seconds and then it goes black. The power light is still on. I've had to reset it three times already to type this. I'll see you guys when I can get this straightened out.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan,

What did you think of EL34s in the Tweaker?


----------



## RiverRatt

They do pretty well. It's been awhile since I used them, though. IIRC they sounded better with single-coils than humbuckers. They didn't have as much of an impact on the overall tone of the amp than you might think. The KT66's sound really good in the Tweaker, too. They change the character of the amp. I wouldn't want to use them all the time but it is a unique tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Did you move any tubes on the forum? It's been real slow for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Did you move any tubes on the forum? It's been real slow for me.



I sold the Svetlana EL34's. The Tesla pair is spoken for. Nobody wanted any 6L6GC's... imagine that on a Marshal forum. I have to go cover a basketball game tonight and if I get home in time I'm going to put them on eBay. It was 9 p.m. when I got home last night. I did get a new monitor so that I can tell what I'm doing now. 24" - it's like using a TV. I'm off to give Skyrim a go - this monitor is bigger than my Mac I use for desktop publishing. You could have an entire newspaper page on this thing at 1:1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have my laptop next to my PC. I wouldn't have room for a 24-inch monitor.

My monitor is one of the last old ones. It is a 17 X 17. A square. It is a flat screen.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have my laptop next to my PC. I wouldn't have room for a 24-inch monitor.
> 
> My monitor is one of the last old ones. It is a 17 X 17. A square. It is a flat screen.



Sometimes it comes in handy to have people who owe you money. It's really cool when they own a pawn shop.


----------



## brp

Big monitors are great for DAW use, especially editing a waveform or a "piano roll".
I use this 32" LCD for that and you can really get into detail without having the waveform or sequence part so zoomed in that you have to scroll every .5 seconds of audio. I now consider it essential and couldn't imagine going back to a 17 or 19 inch for editing/sequencing.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice setup!


----------



## BluesRocker

Hows it going Alan?


----------



## MartyStrat54

BRP-Wow! Nice shit! You got a lot of stuff. I was like that back in the 90's. Spent all my dough on analog tape drives like a Tascam 80-8. The stuff isn't good for a boat anchor nowadays. I still have my Teac 3340. It just sits and collects dust.


----------



## BluesRocker

Did you notice that the MF was on TV?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is the Teac version. It is on EBAY and is only up to $107.






One guy had one listed on a stereo website with an outboard DBX system for $700, but no one was interested.

I owned the Tascam and it came with the desk that allowed you to run the deck in a laid down manner.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is the Teac version. It is on EBAY and is only up to $107.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One guy had one listed on a stereo website with an outboard DBX system for $700, but no one was interested.
> 
> I owned the Tascam and it came with the desk that allowed you to run the deck in a laid down manner.



I had one of these in high school! Wow, that brings back memories.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hows it going Alan?



Fine, thanks man. I've been walking around with a broken toe for about 3 weeks. Apparently there's not much you can do except live with it. It's better than it was at least. I have the strangest luck.


----------



## BluesRocker

yeah broken toes, fingers. There is not much to do with either of them but just carry on and tough it out.


----------



## brp

Ya I had some reel to reel stuff back in the day, a nve Teac 4 track. So much maintenence, so archaic nowadays. So much gear that cost a fortune now pretty much can't be given away.


Speaking of broken toes, I once had the strap button pop out on a borrowed 70's Hagstrom LP and it went crashing to the floor, I stuck my foot under it just before it hit the floor. Caught all of my big toe. Saved the guitar. Toe was crushed. That was one of the most painful things I've ever felt and I've had bad burns, broken collar bone, severe roadrash.
Went to the hospital, they said yep, it's smashed alright. But we can't do a damn thing about it, here's some Tylenol.


Oh and thanks guys.

Here'a couple of the whole studio side of the room:


----------



## solarburn

Awesome room! You're definitely filling it up with cool stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Speaking of broken toes, I once had the strap button pop out on a borrowed 70's Hagstrom LP and it went crashing to the floor, I stuck my foot under it just before it hit the floor. Caught all of my big toe. Saved the guitar. Toe was crushed. That was one of the most painful things I've ever felt and I've had bad burns, broken collar bone, severe roadrash.
> Went to the hospital, they said yep, it's smashed alright. But we can't do a damn thing about it, here's some Tylenol.



Bill that is one incredible setup! 

I broke my little toe walking through the house like I've done for over 20 years and caught a table leg as I was walking past it. I don't know what I said but the kids thought I was having some sort of fit. I thought it would be better by now but I still can't stand putting on a shoe. Hell, I've had broken bones, amputations, all kinds of fun stuff. It doesn't rank up there with those, but there's no relief from it except sleep.


----------



## 61rocker

Nice Clean and Organized Set Up.....I wouldn't know where to begin with that....


----------



## ckr1231

What is the technical and tonal differences between the 12ax7 Mullard short plate and Mullard long plate ?


----------



## RiverRatt

ckr1231 said:


> What is the technical and tonal differences between the 12ax7 Mullard short plate and Mullard long plate ?



It's hard to put tonal differences into words. Physically the plates are 17mm instead of 14mm, there are two getter posts, and I don't think I've ever seen one dated past 1958. The one I've got had a letter M in a circle. It looked nothing like the shield logo. 

Tone-wise they seem smoother than the short plates with better mids and nice highs IMO. Pushed hard, they thicken up with some nice punchy low-mid emphasis.


----------



## ckr1231

Awesome, thanx for the info !!!


----------



## RiverRatt

If you don't have issues with microphonics, and if you're using a head instead of a combo that helps a lot, the long plate tubes are the schiznit. I've found that all the brands I like who produced long plate and short plate tubes, the long plates win out every time. It's really no contest.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ditto.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Ditto.



Me three!


----------



## ckr1231

Well, I am using a combo--but the speakers are disconnected and it's run into a 4x12 cab. Basically using it as a head !!!
---Got me a 1996 Gibson LP Custom black with creme binding and gold hardware the other day ---
She has aged beautifully !!!


----------



## 61rocker

Bump....


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry - I haven't had anything to add. I've been busy selling tubes and shipping stuff. I need a drink or three but that's not an option right now.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry - I haven't had anything to add. I've been busy selling tubes and shipping stuff. I need a drink or three but that's not an option right now.


I just had to get the Preamp thread off of Page 2.....lol...I got a couple of bids on some 12ax7s...There are some interesting pres and el34s up right now....I tried to search your username but I couldn't find it...


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have anything listed right now. I was bidding on a Sonotone West Germany 12AX7 tube. The picture was bad, but it looked to be either a S&H or a ribbed Tele. I just put a low bid in on it to see if it would stand and it didn't. I stayed with it up to $15 and it went for $21 or so. That's just too much for an unknown tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was busy this time last year. I remembered wondering if I was going to run out of high gain Black Plates. I'm dead as hell right now. Sort of like this thread.

If it wasn't for sccloser, 61rocker and brp, this place would be a ghost town.

What's sad is when someone feels that they need to start a thread in regard to tube questions. They would be better off posting on one of the tube threads. 

I'm tired of hearing, "It's so big."


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm tired of hearing, "It's so big."


----------



## brp

I haven't had any time for tube rolling lately.
Still have to check out the rest of my 12AX7's and the BP EL84's. Should have some time to play this weekend though.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was busy this time last year. I remembered wondering if I was going to run out of high gain Black Plates. I'm dead as hell right now. Sort of like this thread.
> 
> If it wasn't for sccloser, 61rocker and brp, this place would be a ghost town.
> 
> What's sad is when someone feels that they need to start a thread in regard to tube questions. They would be better off posting on one of the tube threads.
> 
> I'm tired of hearing, "It's so big."



Been busy too. Having a hard time getting time to join all you guys here.

Don't forget about me!LOL

Hopefully Thur/Fri my days off I can visit and stir some shit up hahaha!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was busy this time last year. I remembered wondering if I was going to run out of high gain Black Plates. I'm dead as hell right now. Sort of like this thread.
> 
> If it wasn't for sccloser, 61rocker and brp, this place would be a ghost town.
> 
> What's sad is when someone feels that they need to start a thread in regard to tube questions. They would be better off posting on one of the tube threads.
> 
> I'm tired of hearing, "It's so big."



You need to sig that Marty!


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey guys


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey BR. Sorry, I was taking a dump and got to reading an article with my pants down. 

How's it going?


----------



## Drewser141

Hey Marty, I need your expertise. If you had these tubes and a TSL122, where would you put them (to start with). VLVE 00051 WK0401 (white Marshall logo), VLVE 00041 WK42 (White Marshall), VLVE 00008R WK1 (Black Marshall), VLVE 20400 Wk21 no logo. I have more 12ax7s on the way but it's always nice to know what ya got. Thanks.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey BR. Sorry, I was taking a dump and got to reading an article with my pants down.
> 
> How's it going?



Lol.. Its ok.. Just bought me a strat last night. Got a classic players 60's model. Its a really light colored blue. Almost white.. Got an SKB hard case too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Drewser141 said:


> Hey Marty, I need your expertise. If you had these tubes and a TSL122, where would you put them (to start with). VLVE 00051 WK0401 (white Marshall logo), VLVE 00041 WK42 (White Marshall), VLVE 00008R WK1 (Black Marshall), VLVE 20400 Wk21 no logo. I have more 12ax7s on the way but it's always nice to know what ya got. Thanks.




VLVE-00007 12AT7/ECC81 No selection White Logo
VLVE-00009 12AU7/ECC82 No selection White Logo
VLVE-00010 EL34 Svetlana
VLVE-00033 SV6550C Svetlana White Logo
VLVE-00038 6V6GT Shuguang White Logo
VLVE-00039 KT66 Shuguang White Logo
VLVE-00042 EL34B Shuguang Gold Logo
VLVE-00047 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang Low Microphony Gold Logo
VLVE-00049 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang High Microphony Gold Logo
VLVE-00055 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang No Selection White logo
VLVE-00063 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang A Low Microphony White Logo
VLVE-00064 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang B Low Microphony White Logo
VLVE-00065 12AX7B/ECC83 Shuguang Gain Selected >=4V White Logo
VLVE-00066 ECC83S JJ Low Microphony Red Logo
VLVE-00066S ECC83S Microphonic Selection A
VLVE-00067 ECC83S JJ Low Microphony Red Logo
VLVE-00067S ECC83S Microphonic Selection A
VLVE-00068 EL84 JJ Graded Low Anode Current Red Logo
VLVE-00069 EL84 JJ Graded High Anode Current Red Logo
VLVE-00070 EL34 JJ Graded Anode Current Red Logo
VLVE-00071 EZ81 JJ No selection Red Logo
VLVE-00077 KT66 Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo
VLVE-00080 KT88 Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo
VLVE-00083 5881/6L6WGC Shuguang Graded Anode Current Gold Logo replaces VLVE-00006
VLVE-00087 EL34B Shuguang Graded Anode Current White Logo
VLVE-00088 GZ34/5AR4 JJ No selection Red Logo Replaces VLVE-10043 

None of your tubes show up on the Marshall Tube chart. Even if it did, there might not be a way to tell what you had, except for a low noise rating for V1.

Sorry I can't be of any help.


----------



## 61rocker

The tube threads are the most imformative and also the coolest threads for me....Rawk on Rawkers....


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, I got those Dimarzio pups in and put them in my old beater strat. Well, that SDS-1 kicks some major booty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's cool. Does it have that Soapbar sound? Is it pretty quiet for a regular single coil? How do you like that Heavy Blues 2? I think you picked a great lineup.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, the SDS-1 has a soap bar sound, but a bit more ballsy.

The HB2 is really nice. I put it in the neck for now. It seems to work quite well there. It has the classic strat tone but it you pick at the strings hard it really comes alive. 

I havent had a chance to check the middle pup yet (Virtual Solo) but I will soon.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm still liking my plain ol' Texas Specials. With the mid boost on the VM, it's a pretty wicked combination. 

Cody, that's a MIM model, right? My Mexican strat is a real player too. I've never really bonded with a strat before this one.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah, its a MIM. But it is Custom Shop Designed.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's sweet, man. I think Fender is doing great things with the MIM and Classic Vibe guitars.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah me too.

I got some really nicely aged knobs and pickguard to go on that too. They came off my old strat that was around a heavily smoke filled house and is nice and yellowish. It is pretty sweet


----------



## sccloser

BR, that's a nice looking strat!


----------



## BluesRocker

Thanks. I got a lot of goodies to go with it. The case that comes with it is real nice.

I got 3 nice Dimarzios to go in it. SDS-1, Virtual Vintage Heavy Blues 2, and Virtual Solo. And a push/pull pot for the Bridge (normally middle) tone pot so I can add the Neck pickup on at all times.

I also got a HUGE steel trem block to go on it. And some hardened steel saddles.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Evening Gentlemen. 

Hows things over here with my fellow glass hounds?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Scott! 

I am doing pretty well my friend. How about yourself?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Scott. Good to hear from ya.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cody-That's going to be a really versatile Strat when you get it all together. My 2001 does a lot of things very well and your Strat is in the same company. I think the Strat is one of the most versatile guitars in use today.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Evening Gentlemen.
> 
> Hows things over here with my fellow glass hounds?



I've been selling tubes. I hate doing that.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty, I agree 100%. With that SDS-1 in the bridge, it really opens up the tonal standards all the way.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think my goal this coming year is to get one of these.


----------



## BluesRocker

Why not just get a used newer Charvel Alan?

You could grab a HSS pickguard too.. They come with Hardcases.


----------



## sccloser

Hey Scott, did you ever find those other odd tubes you were looking for? I have a friend that recently scored a bunch of odd stuff.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been looking. All the ones I like are out of my price range. I've been looking at Kramers, too. There's this one at a shop about 50 miles away. It's on consignment so no trades.


----------



## BluesRocker

What price range are you looking at? I can keep my eye open up here for ya.


----------



## MM54

Speaking of uncommon tubes...

Hi Alan


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, Matt. I talked to the HAM guy just the other day and I was supposed to stop by this past weekend and never made it to his house. How big of a box are you willing to pay for? I'm going to need to get rid of a bunch of these things.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, Matt. I talked to the HAM guy just the other day and I was supposed to stop by this past weekend and never made it to his house. How big of a box are you willing to pay for? I'm going to need to get rid of a bunch of these things.



I shall PM you (yet again... how many conversations have we had about this ?)


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> What price range are you looking at? I can keep my eye open up here for ya.



I don't really want to go over $400. The Strat is $450 new from MF. I could probably swing that but it'll take me a while to raise up cash.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I shall PM you (yet again... how many conversations have we had about this ?)



Sorry. My intentions are good but my ass is lazy.


----------



## MM54

No worries


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I've been looking. All the ones I like are out of my price range. I've been looking at Kramers, too. There's this one at a shop about 50 miles away. It's on consignment so no trades.



I had a couple two or three Kramers back in the 80's and even ran across one in the late 90s. I have always liked the necks with the maple fb's. I always thought that they had a good feel to them.

Looks like you'd have to do at least one Twisted Sister cover tune with that one...haha.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> I don't really want to go over $400. The Strat is $450 new from MF. I could probably swing that but it'll take me a while to raise up cash.



Ok, I will keep a look out.. You want a floyd rose right?


PM me actually what all you would like to have on it and I will see what I can do.

There is an old charvel at my local music store that has a floyd on it and is pretty sweet. I think they got 400 on it but I could get less for it. 
It is black and is HSS, no pickguard. It also doesnt have a single pickup switch. It has 3 3-way switches. From what I can tell it is on-off-on and basically it is in phase-off- out phase. It plays real nice. Maple neck and fret board too. I would guess it is 80's maybe. I dunno. But they got it in through a trade, so they can sell it cheap. If ya want me to look more into it let me know.

Im off to bed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is just me, but that Kramer doesn't do anything for me. Even if it had a different finish, it only has a bridge pickup, so it would be a one tone pony.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is just me, but that Kramer doesn't do anything for me. Even if it had a different finish, it only has a bridge pickup, so it would be a one tone pony.




I am the same way, sorta. I hardly ever use any other pickup in my LP than the bridge. 

Own a Vintage Modern, it will do that to ya.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Ok, I will keep a look out.. You want a floyd rose right?
> 
> 
> PM me actually what all you would like to have on it and I will see what I can do.
> 
> There is an old charvel at my local music store that has a floyd on it and is pretty sweet. I think they got 400 on it but I could get less for it.
> It is black and is HSS, no pickguard. It also doesnt have a single pickup switch. It has 3 3-way switches. From what I can tell it is on-off-on and basically it is in phase-off- out phase. It plays real nice. Maple neck and fret board too. I would guess it is 80's maybe. I dunno. But they got it in through a trade, so they can sell it cheap. If ya want me to look more into it let me know.
> 
> Im off to bed.



I was thinking about trading that MIM Tele for something. I had a Charvel back in the 1980s that was black/HSS/Floyd. It was one of the ones with the guitar shaped logo on the headstock, I think a Model 3? That was a long time ago. What logo does that one have? Everything that's turned up around here has been the spaghetti logo ones. I've heard that those 1980s Charvel MIJ necks were made by ESP.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, the model 3's are nice. I was at a guy's house looking at something he had for sale once and he showed me a model 6 he got in a pawn shop for $150! Shark inlays! like an upgraded model 3...it was sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> I am the same way, sorta. I hardly ever use any other pickup in my LP than the bridge.
> 
> Own a Vintage Modern, it will do that to ya.



Yeah, but you prefer lower output humbuckers. Something tells me that the Kramer would have heavy treble.

For a lot of songs, I am in the neck for the verse and then I switch over to the bridge for the chorus or turnaround. Then you are in place for a lead.


----------



## Marshall Mann

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Scott!
> 
> I am doing pretty well my friend. How about yourself?



Hey Cody,

Beautiful axe my friend! 

Been working long days lately, it's busy season for me. And I have had a lot of projects come in. 

I'm looking forward to getting through the holiday so I can breathe again.


----------



## Marshall Mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Scott. Good to hear from ya.



Back at ya Marty!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I've been selling tubes. I hate doing that.



Thinning the heard Alan? 

I just checked your sale post. Any 6l6 family quads you want to get rid of???


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> Hey Scott, did you ever find those other odd tubes you were looking for? I have a friend that recently scored a bunch of odd stuff.



Hey Vic, 

I did, thanks! I may need to call on you for some more soon. 

I had most of them in my spares. These were for a Heath Kit AA100 rebuild that I am working on. We ran out of time over Thanksgiving and will pick up again after the first of the year. 

I have been working on some old radio projects with Ron (owner of the AA100) as well. Gave one a way as a birthday present. Pretty fun stuff!


----------



## Marshall Mann

sccloser said:


> I had a couple two or three Kramers back in the 80's and even ran across one in the late 90s. I have always liked the necks with the maple fb's. I always thought that they had a good feel to them.
> 
> Looks like you'd have to do at least one Twisted Sister cover tune with that one...haha.



I had a Striker back in the 80's, it was a pretty decent guitar. I think I sold it to buy my Charvelle.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Damn, I'm just post whoring it up!


----------



## sccloser

Getting close to 6000 posts I see.


----------



## brp

I had a Striker in the 80's and still do, just refurbed it a couple months ago. Aftermarket neck now though. Plays great. Could sound better but it's so nostalgic to play, brings on the whole 80's vibe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's funny. My first real electric was a Japanese copy of an ES335. That and a Kalamazoo amp. This was 1966 I believe. I then picked up a 64 SG. In 1974, I was 19 and got a real good job with the railroad. I bought a new 1974 Les Paul Custom. In 1977, I bought a 1969 Les Paul Gold Top. I had these guitars all through the late 70's and up till the early 90's. 

Not once did I ever think about getting a Kramer, Jackson or Charvel.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Many of you know that the 69 Gold Top was stolen in 1991. I sold the SG for $3500. The 74 Custom was traded at the music store for a hand built Alvarez Yari 12 string. (A trade I regret to this day.)


----------



## sccloser

I bought a Kramer in 1988 with my income tax return money. It was a little cheaper than the US strat I was looking at, and EVH endorsed it. Should have bought the gunmetal blue strat, but hey, that kramer was a good guitar. Sold it after buying a Les Paul.


----------



## sccloser

I had a Fender Strat I bought in Korea for $57 US. I called it my 57 strat. I figure it was an extra run by one of the factories that was licensed to make these guitars for Fender, or maybe it was for the asian market. In any event, I got it from a legit music store. I was stolen in San Diego in 1988. Funny how someone would steal my crappiest guitar...


----------



## brp

The only guitar I've had stolen was my first, an Xmas gift and it was one of those POS Sears catalog Harmony strat copies (*knocks heavily on wood*) which only forced me to buy a new better guitar, a Series A flying V copy which I soon sold to get a Kramer that I sold to get a better Kramer, the one I still have.
Never wanted a Charvel or Jackson. My 2 guitar teacher mentors both played Kramers at the time so that was a big influence.

A couple years later I got a great deal from the boss at the music store I worked at on a brand new Ibanez 540r which was very state of the art at the time and I played that for about 17 years before finally getting around to what I always dreamed of playing; Gibson LP's. Still only Studios though, haven't felt the need to graduate to Standards, Classics, Customs or the reissues.

Lately I've had the bug for a Tele though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tele's are another guitar that comes in many flavors and neck sizes. Price range is good too and the pine wood Squier's are supposed to be pretty good for $325.


----------



## brp

Yes I've been "pining" for a Classic Vibe Tele specifically 
Will probably treat myself to one after getting through the xmas spending.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan I believe that charvel has the spaghetti style logo


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Thinning the heard Alan?
> 
> I just checked your sale post. Any 6l6 family quads you want to get rid of???



Those big Zenith branded Sylvanias were close enough to matching that they would have worked together. All I've got now in the 6L6 family is a couple of pairs for my Fender. I think me and the wife are going to go to Nashville for a weekend after Christmas. There's a guy I buy from pretty regularly. I'll see if he has a quad. His prices are usually stupid low.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Alan I believe that charvel has the spaghetti style logo



Shoot a cell phone pic next time you're in there. If the Tele doesn't sell until after Christmas, I might could swing it.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not once did I ever think about getting a Kramer, Jackson or Charvel.



There's a slinky, chunky feel and tone that's fairly unique to a good guitar with a Floyd Rose.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Shoot a cell phone pic next time you're in there. If the Tele doesn't sell until after Christmas, I might could swing it.



Pm me your number. I lost it..

I went up there today and looked at it. It actually has the guitar logo. They guy said he would trade the tele straight up for it if you wanted to. If not he said he would sell it for 300 out the door. There are a few spots on it that worry me a bit. I have pics of them. And it doesnt have the Trem bar.


----------



## brp

I was just playing my NT, doing some preproduction for some recording I want to do this weekend.
Fucking. Loving. NOS tubes.

That is all.


----------



## MM54

Snagged a pair of what I consider the 'big-plate' GE's for the production test model of the CA10 for $20 today. Red label? Not sure what that signifies.

For cheaper than CP I can't pass them up, even in amps being built to sell... Besides, this first production model is tonally important, since it'll be on display for people to demo at the local music shop


----------



## MM54

So, err, what does the red label on GE 12AX7's mean? Can't say I've ever seen them before.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a couple, and I think I still have one. I think they were dated in the mid-1950s and AFAIK there's nothing special about them. IMO they sound good. An old GE is one of my favorite V1 tubes.


----------



## MM54

Cool. I like the red, it looks nice... and matches the amp I'll be putting it in


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's half the tone right there.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's half the tone right there.


 I haven't tried any GE 12ax7s yet...they are affordable....what's everyone's opinion?....much appreciated....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I ran GE's in my TSL122 for a long time. Sounded pretty damn good. V1 was a 7025 and the rest were 12AX7's. The old GE's are your best bet. Anything before 1965. The GE Black Plates are very good, but are hard to find.


----------



## 61rocker

Thx Marty.....I have been thinking of trying a couple out...I have a speaker question on the speaker thread if you have time to look at it....Peace Rawker....


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll go over and take a look.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I saw your thread on the G12-65 and responded. I didn't see any post from you over on the Speaker Thread.


----------



## sccloser

I have a few GE tubes and they have found them to sound pretty good in my amps. I like them better than RCA's and tend to sound a tad better than the Sylvanias that I have tried in v1, though some Sylvanias sound pretty good.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty, guys. I got my strat in today. Wow is all I can say. The neck on this is just spectacular!


----------



## sccloser

Cool.. I did not know that you did not have it yet.

Looks kewl.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad it arrived in one piece.


----------



## MM54

My birthday was a couple weeks ago, but today I came home for semester break and it's the first I've seen my family since - I got a belated present from my dad.

It's a caddy full of tubes  Pretty much all NIB, less-than-popular tubes, but there are a few I glanced over that are useful (I think there's a 12AX7 in there somewhere, and I know I saw at least one 6BQ5). Mostly RCAs, GEs, and Tung-Sol.

Pictures will come up whenever I get time, right now I'm still unpacking


----------



## sccloser

Unpacking your luggage or the tubes? I'd be digging through the tubes first if it were me....hehehe!


----------



## RiverRatt

Really... Clothes and stuff can wait. You know you'll open every box anyway.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Never trust what is on the label.


----------



## MM54

sccloser said:


> Unpacking your luggage or the tubes? I'd be digging through the tubes first if it were me....hehehe!



My luggage. I'm running on 4 hours sleep, two hours driving on top of that makes for a very tired Matt. Tubes get first priority tomorrow (although I have commitments in he morning so they'll come in the evening).



RiverRatt said:


> Really... Clothes and stuff can wait. You know you'll open every box anyway.



See above  I plan on going through and testing everything in there 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Never trust what is on the label.



I never trust labels on the boxes, but at least 90% of these tubes are new in box, never opened, so I have a hunch these will all be as-marked. Hoping for some cool stuff  Even if none of the tubes are great, it's an AWESOME caddy marked GE Tubes (ironically filled with mostly RCA tubes).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well GE founded RCA in the Fall of 1919.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well GE founded RCA in the Fall of 1919.



We talked about that in my one class this past semester while discussing the history of radio  It was on the test as a True/False 

It's still amusing that the orange and grey GE caddy is full of not-GE tubes. I took a teaser picture and will post it here shortly. I plan on cleaning it up, but no restoration or anything will be done. I like vintage stuff like that to be all original, even if it means a little worn on the edges


----------



## MM54




----------



## MM54




----------



## MartyStrat54

Got any Compactrons in there?


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty!


You need to check out a Classic Players 60's Strat. I am setting here jammin on mine and cannot get over how amazing the neck is.. Just wow..


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Got any Compactrons in there?



Not that I've found - these are older than that. There's a few goodies, but I like having lots of tubes regardless  Lots of testing and inventory to do when I get time...

There was also, on the bottom of the container, a list of commercial prices for RCA tubes in 1959. 12AX7 was $2.50 

And some TV picture tube brighteners


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was a copy of an ad for a big electronics wholesaler that I have posted several times here on the thread. I believe it was from 70 or 72. The ad stated, "Any tube on this page 99 cents." The 12AX7A was one of the tubes listed.


----------



## MM54

I remember that ad 

Where'd my time machine go...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> There was a copy of an ad for a big electronics wholesaler that I have posted several times here on the thread. I believe it was from 70 or 72. The ad stated, "Any tube on this page 99 cents." The 12AX7A was one of the tubes listed.



Yeah and if that was now I'd buy a shit load of those 12AX7A's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Marty!
> 
> 
> You need to check out a Classic Players 60's Strat. I am setting here jammin on mine and cannot get over how amazing the neck is.. Just wow..



Sweet? That's great. I'll try to give one a go.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


>



That's great, Matt. If you find any 6LQ6 or similar I can move them for you in a heartbeat - probably any sweep tubes.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> That's great, Matt. If you find any 6LQ6 or similar I can move them for you in a heartbeat - probably any sweep tubes.



Awesome, I'll definitely let you know what I've got once I find out what I've got


----------



## Marshall Mann

MM54 said:


>



Drool!!!! 

Any 6L6's in there Matt


----------



## MM54

Marshall Mann said:


> Drool!!!!
> 
> Any 6L6's in there Matt



Unless they're mislabeled or I glanced over them somehow, no


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like there are a few good numbers in there from what I can see. Don't you hate those 6AC7's??? I've found five real EL34/6CA7's in all my plundering but every time I see 6AC7 on a box my mind transposes the two middle letters. Wishful thinking, I guess.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Looks like there are a few good numbers in there from what I can see. Don't you hate those 6AC7's??? I've found five real EL34/6CA7's in all my plundering but every time I see 6AC7 on a box my mind transposes the two middle letters. Wishful thinking, I guess.



6AC7's are pure evil, I do the same thing


----------



## carrots

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah and if that was now I'd buy a shit load of those 12AX7A's.


 
I have two 12AX7A's RCA's from the 60's both awesome. I'll be trying them in my 1987x soon.. I also have an old Siemens 12AX7.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a guy call me and tell me he was cleaning out his dad's old barn where he kept his TV/Radio repair stuff. I thought he was talking about 1,000's of tubes, but when I got there it was all TV and radio remains. He said they threw away almost all the tubes a year or two before. I got 20 or 30 tubes out of it but nothing great. I found some 6BQ6's plus a 12BY7A for my HAM radio guy. The best find was a genuine 12AZ7. It's not just a re-labeled 12AT7, either. It's got really small plates. It's probably not good for anything except maybe a Fender V1 tube or reverb driver but they are pretty rare.

As we were leaving, he said "Oh yeah, here's something you might be interested in." He had a big dark colored box with a carrying handle on it. I'm thinking it's a tube caddy, but it turned out to be a Hickok 534 tester. It's got some rust on the faceplate and the ass-end is rotted off the box but the roll chart works well. I'm going to power it up and see what happens, but I'm thinking it might be good for parts for someone. The 534 is a weird model that has some volt/ohm capability, too. Another boat anchor for the collection.


----------



## demonufo

RiverRatt said:


> He said they threw away almost all the tubes a year or two before.



Noooooooooooooooooo.....................


----------



## RiverRatt

I hear that all the time. A guy from nearby threw away his dad's old Gibson amp because it wouldn't power on and they didn't think it was repairable. Why do I always hear about this stuff after the fact?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've been spending a lot of time over here.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/36686-has-marshall-build-quality-gone-down-toilet.html

Take a peek and comment.


----------



## MM54

My 707's getting quite a workout testing these, did about 45 today, which is about 3/4 of the big-box tubes... I've got quite a ways to go 

And as expected, these are almost all NIB, and of the 45, only 2 were bad; not dead, but shorted somewhere.

Also also, I found more paperwork from the 50's from the purchase of tubes, wholesale. Probably the tubes I'm testing now. There was a field 'dud allowance' which accounted for a certain percent of tubes being DOA


----------



## MartyStrat54

What? NOS tubes going bad? Say it ain't so!


----------



## MM54

Interesting proof that even in the prime of tubes (mid and late 50's) there were some dead/shorted right out of the box  I'll try to get a picture of some of the stuff tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys ever had any dealings with a Hickok 534A tester? I'm going to tear into that one I got yesterday sometime this week and see if it's usable. I'm not holding my breath but I'd like to know what to do if I get in there and everything is working.


----------



## MM54

Got the pair of red-label GE 12AX7's in the mail today. I'm going to take some pictures in a moment and post them up


----------



## MM54




----------



## mickeydg5

MM54 said:


> Got the pair of red-label GE 12AX7's in the mail today. I'm going to take some pictures in a moment and post them up


 
Those big rib plate GEs are pretty.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Any of you guys ever had any dealings with a Hickok 534A tester? I'm going to tear into that one I got yesterday sometime this week and see if it's usable. I'm not holding my breath but I'd like to know what to do if I get in there and everything is working.


 
534A is a nice (old) Gm tester. It has all that multi-tester stuff. Hope it is in working shape. I guess you know about the BAMA site, lots of info there if you need it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, BAMA was the first place I went. They only have the owner's manual. I skimmed through it at work but I didn't have time to go through it. I just sat down to do that. Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll fire right up and work like new. But, knowing how my luck runs, it'll probably explode.

We just got a nice holiday greeting from our auto insurance provider. Seems that they are canceling our policy because my daughter wiped out my Maxima last fall. We have been customers of this bunch of assholes since around 1991. Funny thing is, the police report didn't find anyone at fault. Merry fuckin' Christmas. Guess I'll be visiting either Flo or the lizard.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, BAMA was the first place I went. They only have the owner's manual. I skimmed through it at work but I didn't have time to go through it. I just sat down to do that. Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll fire right up and work like new. But, knowing how my luck runs, it'll probably explode.
> 
> We just got a nice holiday greeting from our auto insurance provider. Seems that they are canceling our policy because my daughter wiped out my Maxima last fall. We have been customers of this bunch of assholes since around 1991. Funny thing is, the police report didn't find anyone at fault. Merry fuckin' Christmas. Guess I'll be visiting either Flo or the lizard.


 
Look at the 533A and data catagories. The 533 calibration is very similar and there is extra tube data for you.

For insurance try Snoopy. You can usually get a better deal if all of your insurance is through one company (home, auto, life).


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, the front panel on the Hickok says it's just a 534, but it has a noval socket and the 12A_7 family are all listed on the roll chart so I'm not sure what I have here. It was my understanding that the 534 was made in the mid-1940s and didn't have a noval socket. I took the chassis out of the box and the inside is pretty clean. The faceplate has a lot of rust and isn't going to clean up well, but it seems to be mechanically sound. The B&K 707 was in a similar condition except I think the thick coating of dust on the faceplate cut down on the oxidation. Someone cut the plug off the AC cable, so that's going to have to be replaced. No need for a polarized plug, right?

I wish I had a Variac so I could bring these old testers up to full power slowly. Not a lot of caps in this one, but it does have an 83 rectifier and a 5Y3 as well. It also has a couple of short RCA 6H6 metal tubes. I pulled them and there's no corrosion on the pins. All the contacts look clean. Are there any components that don't need deoxit?

I just checked the manual - there is no mention of the noval socket at all for the 534. What the hell is this thing?


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry - I was posting and didn't see that. I'll go check out the 533.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> We just got a nice holiday greeting from our auto insurance provider. Seems that they are canceling our policy because my daughter wiped out my Maxima last fall.



I've been waiting to hear this. Sorry it had to happen.

Listen to this one. I was at ends with my second wife and didn't know how much longer it would last. She was late to work almost every day. One morning, she gets around late and takes off in her 1994 full size Ford Bronco (with lift kit). 

I am getting ready to take the kids to school and head to work when my wife calls all pissed off. She had been in a wreck and it was some old lady's fault. I drop the kids off at school and call my work to let them know what had happened. I drive up to the location of the accident. My wife had made a late left hand turn and a Chevy Lumina seeing the green light went through the intersection. The Bronco sheered the entire front end of the Lumina off up to the firewall. The Lumina had four old women in it, the youngest being 72. To top it off, someone in a Toyota pickup tried to make a left turn after my wife had. When the Bronco got hit, it took the rear end off of the Toyota.

I was standing by my wife when the cop came up and handed her the ticket. She came unglued (which was normal for her to do).

Three weeks later, I filed for divorce. Six weeks later, I get a notice from Liberty Mutual that I was probably going to be sued, because they couldn't get all of the old ladies to settle. Thankfully, Liberty Mutual proved that the ladies were lying about the extent of their injuries and they finally settled. 

I had a premium policy that paid a lot more out than a minimum policy and had been a customer for around 7 years.

Two weeks after I got notice that the ladies had settled, Liberty Mutual raised my premiums so high I had no other option but to cancel with them. I was being punished for my (ex) wife's bad driving. 

I went with another company and my rates were lower than before the accident.

It's all just a big racket, like banking.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Well, the front panel on the Hickok says it's just a 534, but it has a noval socket and the 12A_7 family are all listed on the roll chart so I'm not sure what I have here. It was my understanding that the 534 was made in the mid-1940s and didn't have a noval socket.
> I just checked the manual - there is no mention of the noval socket at all for the 534. What the hell is this thing?


 
Those testers were made for a several years. The manual is an older one. The noval was probably added around 1947. Look at date codes and see if you can determine a year of manufacture on that 534.

It is a 534, do not panic!


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's some Hickok pics. They are pretty dirty - not for the faint of heart.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Those testers were made for a several years. The manual is an older one. The noval was probably added around 1947. Look at date codes and see if you can determine a year of manufacture on that 534.
> 
> It is a 534, do not panic!



No panic, it's just one of those weird things you run into pretty frequently messing with tubes and tube-related merchandise.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I'm a pool player. What the hell is "English?"


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh, that thing is in need of a good scrubbing. Deoxitization time. Just remove the chart and hose it! Well, get it as clean as needed for working. You can always detail and buff if it is a keeper.


----------



## mickeydg5

English is the same as Merit, just good to bad. The English for amplifier and power tubes on this tester is still based on mutual conductance operation.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Still in the dark. I never heard of "Merit" use either. What does it do?


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


>



Matt, those look like the ones I have. I like them, they sound pretty good in a Marshall. Are there any date codes?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, those look like the ones I have. I like them, they sound pretty good in a Marshall. Are there any date codes?



One is '62, the other one I can't make out any.


----------



## mickeydg5

MERIT - value, praiseworthy quality, credit held to be earned by performance
ENGLISH - anglicize, to translate into English (the good, the kind of ugly & the bad)

They are simply grading scales.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> One is '62, the other one I can't make out any.



Here's my red print GE. It's a 1960. Check out the 12AZ7A next to it that I found yesterday. I may give it a try in the Fender. The plates remind me of a 5751. That's only the second 12AZ7 I've had, and the first one was just a re-labeled 12AT7.


----------



## MM54

Nice! I want to say there's a box marked 12AZ7 in that caddy, I'll have to see if the tube is a remarked tube or if it's like yours.


----------



## Lowlife

I think i have a GE tube just like that one, I like it


----------



## MM54

It would seem that the 2V heater setting on my 707 isn't making it to socket 41. I don't know about any other sockets, haven't got any other 2V tubes. Bah. (And I still need to get around to replacing socket 8)

Edit: Turns out I do have another 2V tube, and it's not getting 2V heater at socket 1 either, so something's up...


----------



## MM54

Oh and Alan, I do indeed have a 12AZ7A just like yours


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> It would seem that the 2V heater setting on my 707 isn't making it to socket 41. I don't know about any other sockets, haven't got any other 2V tubes. Bah. (And I still need to get around to replacing socket 8)
> 
> Edit: Turns out I do have another 2V tube, and it's not getting 2V heater at socket 1 either, so something's up...



Time to start tracing all that spaghetti. Bet you've got a bad/broken connection somewhere. All that stuff is daisy-chained. IIRC the #1 socket is at the end of the chain but I may be wrong. I'm too busy to stop and think today.



MM54 said:


> Oh and Alan, I do indeed have a 12AZ7A just like yours



Let me know if you find a good use for it. It's about the same performance as a 12AT7 but IDK if its construction will give it a better tone or not. I haven't had much time for rollin'.


----------



## MM54

I suspect the 2V heater is not connected at the switch. When I got it, the heater switch was stuck and it took a hell of a workout to get it free, I may have messed up either the solder joint there or the contact itself. I'll flip the panel to take a look some other time - I only had two 2V tubes to test so I did them on 3V with the 'life test' on and estimated a general 'good' or 'bad' on them and noted it on my spreadsheet


----------



## mickeydg5

You can throw a 12AZ7 in a cathode follower whereas a 12AT7 cannot tread. It does use a little more heater current though.

Hey uh *MM54*, 3V with the life switch on is still 20% above tolerance.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, have you tried checking the 2V tap on the emissions sockets? Set Controls 1 & 2 for whatever pins you want and hook your meter up to them. When you hit the emissions test switch, you should get a heater reading. If you want to do it right, just set up the controls for your 7-pin tube and test it with the tube in the socket. You can then easily check the heater voltage under load with one of the other sockets in the emissions bank.


----------



## mickeydg5

*Matt*

There should be 2.25VAC at every socket when set up to test a 2V filament tube. Check a bunch of sockets to see if the voltage is present. If there some is then there may be only a wiring problem to the one socket (or sockets connected by the same line).

If no 2.25VAC present at any sockets, then the problem is at the switch or transformer. Do you have 2.25VAC at the transformer tap?


----------



## 61rocker

With all this GE talk, I am going to have to bid on a couple of listings I've found....


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, have you tried checking the 2V tap on the emissions sockets? Set Controls 1 & 2 for whatever pins you want and hook your meter up to them. When you hit the emissions test switch, you should get a heater reading. If you want to do it right, just set up the controls for your 7-pin tube and test it with the tube in the socket. You can then easily check the heater voltage under load with one of the other sockets in the emissions bank.





mickeydg5 said:


> *Matt*
> 
> There should be 2.25VAC at every socket when set up to test a 2V filament tube. Check a bunch of sockets to see if the voltage is present. If there some is then there may be only a wiring problem to the one socket (or sockets connected by the same line).
> 
> If no 2.25VAC present at any sockets, then the problem is at the switch or transformer. Do you have 2.25VAC at the transformer tap?




I haven't looked too deeply into it (it isn't a huge concern for me) but I wasn't getting the 2v on the emissions or regular sockets. In a few days if I get the time I'll take a look into it, but I don't have any more 2V tubes to test, so I'm not too concerned


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not think I have ever seen a 2V type tube much less touched one.


----------



## Lowlife

Oi Tube gurus, I am considering tossing a Phillips Miniwatt in V1, a Raytheon Blackplate in V2, and a Telefunken EL84 into my C5, any better suggestions?


----------



## RiverRatt

I hate eBay. Dude bought 3 pairs of used USA 6L6GC's for $25 ea. and wants to return them because the printing isn't the same on both tubes, even though I never claimed that they did match and posted photos showing that each pair was of identical construction and no more than 3% apart electronically. I'm going to take them back because I think they will sell for more than that.


----------



## MM54

mickeydg5 said:


> I do not think I have ever seen a 2V type tube much less touched one.



The 1-4 volt tubes are nice because they don't get very hot and you can easily pull them out of the tester. It's risky business trying that with a 50V tube... they get hot. Fast. 

B7G, Novals and loctals are the worst for burning you when least expected.


----------



## MM54

I seem to also be missing my 7V filament setting, now I can't test my 7AU7 (That's right, a 7V 12AU7 )


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I seem to also be missing my 7V filament setting, now I can't test my 7AU7 (That's right, a 7V 12AU7 )



Hey, those 7 volt tubes could come in handy if you wanted to restore an old MIJ black & white TV.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, those 7 volt tubes could come in handy if you wanted to restore an old MIJ black & white TV.



I'd be more apt to gut it and keep all the parts


----------



## MM54

I stumbled on this a little while ago, it's interesting:
Battery (vacuum tube) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Oi Tube gurus, I am considering tossing a Phillips Miniwatt in V1, a Raytheon Blackplate in V2, and a Telefunken EL84 into my C5, any better suggestions?



That sounds like a "wiener" to me, Lowlife.


----------



## Lowlife

I tried it with a NOS russian EL84 (wont get the telefunken until soon'ish) and it sounds pretty good...pretty damned good


----------



## 61rocker

First of all Merry Christmas to all the Tubers out there...hope you all have a great day with family and friends....
I won 2 auctions for some GE 12ax7s, one is a pair and the other a single....it'll probably be a couple of weeks before I get to roll them....one had a pic on a tester showing 97, I'll believe it when I see it...the pair, I rolled the dice on but got them both for $13....they have original boxes and looked very clean for their appearance.....Peace out Rawkers.....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. I wish I could have sent out some free goodies, but this has been a very slow 3 months for me. I'm down about $800 the last three months in sales ($2400). Instead of Ho-Ho-Ho, it's more like Slow-Slow-Slow.

I went to an elaborate dinner last night. Had some After Shock cinnamon schnapps. Amaretto and cranberry ginger ale. Wine, scotch and some craft beer. Oh the food was fantastic as well. Doing it again on Saturday night.


----------



## 61rocker

Man, that Marshall Build Quality Thread has got everyone at it....sometimes I'm glad my apptitude isn't electronics.....My Marshalls sound great and I have never had a major issue with any of them.....I've owned 6 in my time....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that Alva Goldbook is probably a kid who thinks he knows more than he really does thanks to info that he has obtained on the Internet. When that thread first started, I thought he was a troll.


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that Alva Goldbook is probably a kid who thinks he knows more than he really does thanks to info that he has obtained on the Internet. When that thread first started, I thought he was a troll.



He's either not very smart or he is an agitator. Toss up which one. But he seems to choose the inflammatory words carefully and he keeps it up so I do not think he is that dumb, so he probably is an agitator.


----------



## sccloser

Just thought of something...maybe he is both...


----------



## 61rocker

Why I like this thread and people....if someone is corrected, it's with respect....the peeps here have some class and respect for others, especially the ones like me who are trying to learn, have an avid interest, and maybe don't get the facts 100% correct....It never bothers me to get corrected, because I know that I am learning something in the process.....


----------



## solarburn

Just woke up. Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year too!

Sounds like that other thread is get'n whipped up good. I'll have to check it out and see what flavor of saturation it has since its in overdrive...hehe. 

TOOBS!


----------



## 61rocker

Go straighten 'em out Joe....


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> Why I like this thread and people....if someone is corrected, it's with respect....the peeps here have some class and respect for others, especially the ones like me who are trying to learn, have an avid interest, and maybe don't get the facts 100% correct....It never bothers me to get corrected, because I know that I am learning something in the process.....



Yeah the temperament hear is good. Not internet thuggish. Great thread to learn on or hang out and have some laughs.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I like to be a smartass some of the time 

I've been doing more power tube rolling than preamp tubes. Still having fun with the Tweaker. Mainly I've confirmed that the 6P3S tubes are really the best option, 5881's sound great, a good pair of 6L6G's have a nice crunchy compressed tone, and the tube the amp was designed around (the 6V6GT) sounds the worst of any of them. I have a beautiful pair of matched Tung-Sol 6V6GTA's except that one of them redplates in every amp I've tried it in. I have no idea why. I've got over 20 or so 6V6GT's and I don't think I have two of the same tube.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Well, I like to be a smartass some of the time
> 
> I've been doing more power tube rolling than preamp tubes. Still having fun with the Tweaker. Mainly I've confirmed that the 6P3S tubes are really the best option, 5881's sound great, a good pair of 6L6G's have a nice crunchy compressed tone, and the tube the amp was designed around (the 6V6GT) sounds the worst of any of them. I have a beautiful pair of matched Tung-Sol 6V6GTA's except that one of them redplates in every amp I've tried it in. I have no idea why. I've got over 20 or so 6V6GT's and I don't think I have two of the same tube.


 Better to be a smart ass than a dumbass....I saw a Laney 30w amp at the GC in Little Rock yesterday, but it had 4 6v6s in it. Every post I read about 6v6s seem to be not liking them...I played thru a Gibson Falcon that had 6v6s in it and I kind of liked that....I am gassing for something,but I haven't found it yet...I'll know it when I see it....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah and AlvaGoldbook is a dumbass.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Marty,

Heres a clip of the SDS-1 through a Peavey Vypyr.

Not too bad for a single coil. lol

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/329221_dm6lj/unchained.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey they sound really good. Lot of good, thick mids. Nice choice.


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I am pretty pleased with it. Only setback is that it is not noise free. Oh well. The other 2 sing very nicely with the SDS.


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> Better to be a smart ass than a dumbass....I saw a Laney 30w amp at the GC in Little Rock yesterday, but it had 4 6v6s in it. Every post I read about 6v6s seem to be not liking them...I played thru a Gibson Falcon that had 6v6s in it and I kind of liked that....I am gassing for something,but I haven't found it yet...I'll know it when I see it....



Usually I don't like 6V6's but in the Bogner Goldfinger(has 4)they sound very nice and Marshley with some chime cleaned up. I think most of that is building a hell of a circuit with them hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Better to be a smart ass than a dumbass....I saw a Laney 30w amp at the GC in Little Rock yesterday, but it had 4 6v6s in it. Every post I read about 6v6s seem to be not liking them...I played thru a Gibson Falcon that had 6v6s in it and I kind of liked that....I am gassing for something,but I haven't found it yet...I'll know it when I see it....



6V6's are a fine sounding tube at lower volume, but IMO then the harder you push them, the more compressed and muddy they sound. In a lower-gain Fender circuit it's not so bad, and the Tweaker with 6V6's sounds really good up to a point, but there's other glass that sounds a lot better.

My favorite octal power tube is the 5881. It's at home in just about any application and can sound very much like an EL34 in a classic Marshall circuit or give you the big bottom and sweet highs of a 6L6GC in a Fender or similar amp.

Have you checked out a Tweaker 15 yet? They are on sale at GC right now for $350 and I believe there is a 20% off coupon available. Under $300 is a steal on a really cool little amp. If you've got a cab for it already so much the better.

I recorded this loop with the Tweaker 15 double-tracked. This was with a pair of 1978 Russian military 6P3S power tubes in the Tweaker going through a Seismic Audio 2x12 cab with Eminence Legends, a mic, and a Mac with Garage Band. I think it was my Les Paul but it might have been an Ibanez RG.

http://www.upload-mp3.com/files/320986_o0prp/Tweaker2.mp3


----------



## sccloser

I'm gassing for a Tweeker. How long is the GC sale?


----------



## sccloser

I can't hear the clips...getting error messages for Alan's clips and BR's.


----------



## sccloser

Marty,

I think you may also be right that Alva is a kid...maybe 20 at best would be my guess.


----------



## BluesRocker

sccloser said:


> I can't hear the clips...getting error messages for Alan's clips and BR's.




Hmm That is weird.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, upload-mp3.com has been having problems for the last couple of days. It worked when I posted it but not anymore.

I went and checked GC's website. The promotion is actually $50 off $299 or more, so you'd get the Tweaker for $299. Not bad but it ends tomorrow. I wouldn't worry, though. They'll have an after-Christmas sale listed by midnight on Dec. 25th.


----------



## sccloser

So, the Tweeker will accept different power tubes? Just plug and play? They self bias?


----------



## MartyStrat54

What is the plate voltage of a Tweaker 15? This is a cathode biased amp, so do they run the plate voltage below optimum?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> So, the Tweeker will accept different power tubes? Just plug and play? They self bias?



Yes, it'll take just about any octal power tube with no modification at all.



MartyStrat54 said:


> What is the plate voltage of a Tweaker 15? This is a cathode biased amp, so do they run the plate voltage below optimum?



I don't know Marty, I've never checked it. I'd imagine it's pretty low as the amp was designed around 6V6 power tubes. I've never had the chassis out so I could check it. It works, and it sounds good doing it. That may be why the 6P3S works so well in it. It's closer to a 6V6 than any of the other tubes I mentioned earlier.


----------



## sccloser

I was gassing for the tweeker. Been trying to pick up one used, but they want as much as I can buy a new one at GC right now. But then I saw that Tele/Strat in the Guitar thread and I'm gassing hard!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was a cool looking guitar.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, it was. Strat comfort and tele rip! But I think I may get over that...if I just breath deeply.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well since it's Custom Shop, I'm sure it is $$$.


----------



## sccloser

Mine would be Allparts...hehe!


----------



## sccloser

My buddy can spray Nitro so I could build a sweet one if I were so inclined.


----------



## brp

Hello and Happy Holidays, tube bros!

I've decided I'm totally getting a Tweaker 15h when I go to Seattle in mid January. I'll get my holiday pay and so I must buy myself a late xmas gift, since I won't be getting much from anyone else.
I've also been looking for a used one but only one has came up around here and was gone fast.

STILL haven't had any time to roll tubes or play for that matter. Haven't even tried out the BP Raytheon EL84's Marty gave me or any of the other 12ax7's for that matter. I work in the toy biz so you can imagine that this time of year is beyond crazy for me.

I am going to steal a couple hours xmas day for it though.


----------



## 61rocker

The Tweaker is on my short list.....someone in Cleveland Tn has a RI Marshall 2203 for $1200, if it's available in Feb....it's a 2004 Model so I think it's before the 2203X which I have read is not as strudy of a build...ooops here we go......


----------



## RiverRatt

There's a 2204S head on eBay right now for $1,200. I would love to have one of those with a 1965A and a 1966B cab.

Bill my man, go get that Tweaker. You won't be sorry you did. I'll hook you up with some 6P3S tubes for it at a very discounted price. I need to get rid of the remains of the last batch for cheap, now that I know which years to focus on.


----------



## brp

Sounds like a deal, Alan. Thanks!


----------



## sccloser

Alan,

I've been thinking of getting the Tweeker 15h, but may have a chance at a Tweeker 40h for about $350. I was wanting the 15 to run at small gigs. 40 may be too much. Any tone differences? I seem to remember you saying the Tweeker 15 is not that good pushed hard.


----------



## johnfv

I've not tried the new higher power Tweaker heads so can't compare. But, I LOVE my Tweaker 15 for the Fender cleanish tones. I have the 6P3S tubes that Alan has mentioned (they RULE in this amp). I crank the master WIDE OPEN. Fat mids and natural tube compression, it's a wonderful thing...


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Alan,
> 
> I've been thinking of getting the Tweeker 15h, but may have a chance at a Tweeker 40h for about $350. I was wanting the 15 to run at small gigs. 40 may be too much. Any tone differences? I seem to remember you saying the Tweeker 15 is not that good pushed hard.



Yeah, like John said, they sound fine cranked. My complaint would be with the stock 6V6 power tubes. I thought that just about any other octal power tube sounded better. The Russian 6P3S tubes are stupid-cheap for such a good sounding tube, too. Look for the ones from the 1970's. I think I prefer them to the others I've tried.

As far as the Tweaker 40, Moose Lewis has one and loves it. He said you have to re-bias when changing power tubes. There's a running Tweaker thread in the Other Amps forum - go over there and ask Moose what he thinks about his. He has the 15 and 40 so I'm sure he can give you a good breakdown on both. 

One thing I've noticed since I got my new Tweaker 15 head is that they sound really different when you go from a closed back to an open back cab. When I was running through a closed back Marshall 1966 2x12 with G12T-75's it seemed more aggressive. I like the open back cab better - IMO it's more versatile. I'm sure it'll sound good with just about any decent cab though.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, I finally got around to firing up the Hickok 534 tester. I'm getting zero meter deflection with any setting on the tube tester. The meter does move when I select the different multi-tester functions, but for some reason the tube tester functions aren't getting to the meter. The line adjust is working - the pilot lamp gets noticeably brighter as you turn up the voltage. A 12AX7 in the noval socket lights up normally. I figured it would be too good to be true.


----------



## 61rocker

Well, I went to the GC in Little Rock, and they had sold out of the Tweaker 15. I may check the one here in Memphis....or I may just keep saving for tax refund time...I also get a payout on holiday pay...plus a small quarterly bonus all in Feb. ...now if I can just be patient....saw a 50 watt DSL here in Memphis Craigslist for $495....any problems I should look out for or be aware of if I decide to check it out?


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Well, I went to the GC in Little Rock, and they had sold out of the Tweaker 15. I may check the one here in Memphis....or I may just keep saving for tax refund time...I also get a payout on holiday pay...plus a small quarterly bonus all in Feb. ...now if I can just be patient....saw a 50 watt DSL here in Memphis Craigslist for $495....any problems I should look out for or be aware of if I decide to check it out?



Just make sure the channel switching and the Clean/Crunch and OD1/OD2 switches are working. Check the reverb and FX loop and make sure you aren't hearing anything bad tone-wise. If you can, get the MV up to at least 4 for the tone test.

GC Memphis sucks hard, or at least they did the last time I was in there. I only saw one Egnater in the place and it was a Rebel 30 head on the clearance display. Most of the amp display was empty. They had a Haze 40 and some MG stuff from Marshall, a couple of the Vox custom classics, 2 or 3 Oranges and Line 6 stuff and that was about it. I usually only go in there to check out the used stuff. It was mostly all shite. They had a homemade strat that was maybe the worst guitar I've ever seen. When I say homemade, I mean like it was made by a 13-year-old with a wood chisel and not much patience.


----------



## khan

I had this brilliant idea to print out this thread so I could do a little night (before I go to bed) reading but, it's saying it would be over 400 pages. I think I would buy that book. What a bank full of information here. I'm going to be pulling some old tubes from a 1950's Zenith radio and like vintage Philco TV to try with my amp in the next couple of weekends. I'll report back with results. Thanks for the TON (literally) of advice and knowledge in this thread. Wow!


----------



## solarburn




----------



## MartyStrat54

khan said:


> I'm going to be pulling some old tubes from a 1950's Zenith radio and like vintage Philco TV to try with my amp in the next couple of weekends. I'll report back with results. Thanks for the TON (literally) of advice and knowledge in this thread. Wow!



Well all you can really use is the 12AX7's. I would not advise anything else.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Just make sure the channel switching and the Clean/Crunch and OD1/OD2 switches are working. Check the reverb and FX loop and make sure you aren't hearing anything bad tone-wise. If you can, get the MV up to at least 4 for the tone test.
> 
> GC Memphis sucks hard, or at least they did the last time I was in there. I only saw one Egnater in the place and it was a Rebel 30 head on the clearance display. Most of the amp display was empty. They had a Haze 40 and some MG stuff from Marshall, a couple of the Vox custom classics, 2 or 3 Oranges and Line 6 stuff and that was about it. I usually only go in there to check out the used stuff. It was mostly all shite. They had a homemade strat that was maybe the worst guitar I've ever seen. When I say homemade, I mean like it was made by a 13-year-old with a wood chisel and not much patience.[/QUOTE
> 
> I went to the GC in Memphis today...it was kind of bare from Christmas, there were a few goodies....nice TopHat amp....a Z in the Vault....They have a JCM800 100watter there for reasonable, but it had 6L6s...(I know...I may get criticized), but I like the el34s...but they had the cab for only $349, that's not a bad price for a good 1960A....was in good shape....In the Vault is where all the Egnaters are, no 15s tho, Gibson has come out with an SG special with P90s that has a faded finsish, and they even had a white one...they run $799, but that's really not what I'm looking for....very few used effects....Has anyone here tried a FullTone Fat Boost?...I nearly bought one, they run $134 (new)....also had a Radial London Bones distortion...it's a Hot British but no tube....


----------



## sccloser

Great practice tonight. Worked on some new material for upcoming show on the 21st. Whiskey Man is going to be a blast to play live! Running the C5 combo tonight, bass on 0, mids and treb dimed, vol 1/2 way. With the sG it was working well. Running a Boss GE7 for boost. I have EI in v1, Tungsgram in V2 and a Mullard el84 in it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was living in Oklahoma when the Southern Rock craze was in full swing. That stuff was fun to play. We used to do a lot of 38 Special.


----------



## solarburn

Its SR nite!!!!!!

I saw these guys way back. Def Leppard opened up for them.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMclpOK7a2w&feature=related[/ame]

Changed it to live version hehe.


----------



## sccloser

Well, around SC, Southern Rock is always in style. Molly Hatchet was the absolute loudest band I ever saw live. A friend of mine ran sound for them at a local event years ago, and he said they did not mic the guitars or the bass. They just run everything wide open! 

Any suggestions of an fx processor? I have not used one since the 80's...I had a dsp 128. But was thinking I could use delay on a lead or two, and some chorus on a song or two, and maybe tremolo on a song we are working on right now. Could probably get by without it, but still might be nice.


----------



## solarburn

Love me some Hatchet. Never got to see them but I had a solid collection of their tunes. That's awesome they ran shit full out. Must of liked that "pants blowing" speaker air from their cabs...RAWK!


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Well, around SC, Southern Rock is always in style. Molly Hatchet was the absolute loudest band I ever saw live. A friend of mine ran sound for them at a local event years ago, and he said they did not mic the guitars or the bass. They just run everything wide open!
> 
> Any suggestions of an fx processor? I have not used one since the 80's...I had a dsp 128. But was thinking I could use delay on a lead or two, and some chorus on a song or two, and maybe tremolo on a song we are working on right now. Could probably get by without it, but still might be nice.



I've read really good things about this model...for time based effects.

GSP1101 | DigiTech Guitar Effects


----------



## solarburn

Be cheaper to get a pedal or 2...


----------



## solarburn

This is cheaper...

RP500 | DigiTech Guitar Effects

or

http://www.google.com/products/cata...eviews&ei=Y2j9TvW4MJCMjQSTrsXECA&ved=0CBMQsBI

or

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...=0&zmam=89202644&zmas=1&zmac=1&zmap=TonelabST


----------



## 61rocker

SC, I like my old DigiTech RP-12...I know where an RP-1000 (I think that 's it) is and on the Nashvile Craigslist, there's an RP-12 for $80 with a soft case and the manual and power supply...if I could get up there, I'd pick it up....
I saw Blackfoot back up Quiet Riot in Little Rock...I've seen Molly Hatchet on their first tour...38 Special....and Black Oak several times....here was a good lineup one night in the Barn in Little Rock.....Molly Hatchet, Black Oak Arkansas , and The Outlaws......


----------



## sccloser

I met the guys in 38 Special once. I always liked that band and Don Barnes, DVZ adn LJ were are great guys. I've seen a few SR bands...Nantucket, Foghat, Skynard, Molly Hatchet, Derek Trucks when he was a teen, Georgia Satellites, 38 Special, Marshall Tucker, and probably a few others.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have an old Digitech GSP 5 lying around somewhere. I haven't seen it since last spring but I could probably find it.


----------



## BluesRocker

I cant stand processors, I like having multiple pedals to jump around on.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I have an old Digitech GSP 5 lying around somewhere. I haven't seen it since last spring but I could probably find it.



I remember demo'ing those at GC in San Diego about 1988 when they first came out! They were about $350 I think... used LP's were around $500 so that was NOT cheap. Which is why I got the older, dsp 128 model....

I never had a midi switch for mine. Did you have one for your GSP-5? What you gonna do with it if you find it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I bought my RP-12 back in 1999 when I bought my first DSL 401. I still have the RP-12 and it works great.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I remember demo'ing those at GC in San Diego about 1988 when they first came out! They were about $350 I think... used LP's were around $500 so that was NOT cheap. Which is why I got the older, dsp 128 model....
> 
> I never had a midi switch for mine. Did you have one for your GSP-5? What you gonna do with it if you find it?



I dunno. I don't use it anymore. You interested?


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I dunno. I don't use it anymore. You interested?



Perhaps.


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> I bought my RP-12 back in 1999 when I bought my first DSL 401. I still have the RP-12 and it works great.


 
I use mine to preamp My '71 Superlead and my Class 5.....it took me a while to tweak a tone....but it sounds great....I don't use it with my JCM800 2210....I'd have to retweak it....I have it set to hot for a Master Volume amp.....I like stomp boxes too....I kind of go back and forth on the SL and C5.....
I saw The Georgia Sattlelites in Nashville and Cantrell's before it shut down....they were on an independent label and about a year away from makin' it...
Correction....It was Quiet Riot backing up Blackfoot.....Hellava Show....LOUD


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was living in Oklahoma when the Southern Rock craze was in full swing. That stuff was fun to play. We used to do a lot of 38 Special.



I thought I detected an accent!

Molly Hatchett!!!! we covered a lot of .38, too. I was in a Band called Trix. Where were you guys at back in the okies day, OKC?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to Tulsa more than OKC. Our band was called Pure Grain.

I had my 21st birthday at Cain's Ballroom.

There used to be a show on OKC TV called "The Scene" that came on before American Bandstand. I believe it was KOMA TV (been a long time). We got to play on that show. That was a lot of fun. I think it was 1974. I was nineteen.

It was hosted by long time OKC WKY DJ Ronnie Kaye.

Ronnie used to book us all over Oklahoma for sock hops and Frat parties.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got a buddy that is a solid player that lives in Tulsa. His name is David DuVal. He is the lead guitarist for the Tyler King Band.

Also plays with Soulshine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TV dance party to live again in event saluting ‘The Scene’ | NewsOK.com


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> I got a buddy that is a solid player that lives in Tulsa. His name is David DuVal. He is the lead guitarist for the Tyler King Band.
> 
> Also plays with Soulshine.



Dude!! no way! I grew up with David and his brother whos name escapes me at the moment, kenny? as well. LOL, who is even better than David. I think he is in new york last I heard. 

I'll look him up I didn't know he was in Tulsa! Been a long time since I've talk with him. how cool man.. Thanks for mentioning him! LOL.. how freaking cool is that?!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I was in a short lived band with David in 1983. That was when we were all living in the Blackwell, Tonkawa and Ponca City area. David lived in Ponca. Did you know him back then?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can't remember David's bother's name. I remember that he and David used to play together. His brother started out on bass and was an awesome bass player.

(His sister was a knock-out...too.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hacksaw, I thought your name was familiar. I had to look it up. You're Rik. We both used to own a Twister. Ha ha.

Good to see ya back over here.


----------



## solarburn

Did he like his?


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I was in a short lived band with David in 1983. That was when we were all living in the Blackwell, Tonkawa and Ponca City area. David lived in Ponca. Did you know him back then?



Heck ya.. My old stomping grounds.. Larry popplin, Jeff probst from ark city, me of course, and at the time joel from ark city who had a construction accident and died.. weirndess on that,, and 5 other drummers made trix. We traveled the mid USA a lot. 1979-1984 then jeff probst left for tv. 

ya kenny is his brother, killer bassist and is living the dream in new york from what I hear. man I really wonder if we ever ran across each other! we've played a lot of outdoor events around the area. LOL wow this is trippy man.


----------



## solarburn

Would be cool if you guys actually had a face to face conversation years ago...

Too cool.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hacksaw, I thought your name was familiar. I had to look it up. You're Rik. We both used to own a Twister. Ha ha.
> 
> Good to see ya back over here.





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Did he like his?



Thanks Marty! nice to hang here.. still lightly reading..  

Oh Solarburn, LOL.. the first one was Ok.. the second one was pure hell. and i apologized to marty big time.  


It would be amazing if we did meet face to face back then! Can't see how we could of missed each other LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did you ever play the Sand Bar in Ark City (located by the river)?

Did you know Waddy Pass from Ponca?


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Thanks Marty! nice to hang here.. still lightly reading..
> 
> Oh Solarburn, LOL.. the first one was Ok.. the second one was pure hell. and i apologized to marty big time.



I remember now.LOL

Shit happens man. I know!


----------



## solarburn

I'm willing to bet you guys could have actually met.LOL

Gonna be great if something sparks and you both recall it...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if we never met in person, we probably were within 50 feet of each other at some point in time.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> Did you ever play the Sand Bar in Ark City (located by the river)?
> 
> Did you know Waddy Pass from Ponca?



I wonder if he was the same waddy that played in a country band i was in ( for two weeks, 100 bucks a night and 10 of us splitting it) LOL Played with riply didnt he? you know Dickie sims? he just passed away a few weeks ago. 

Just found David's info. I wouldn't have known him if I walked passed him. He was a Zepplin freak last I knew. he seems to be in the country scene having fun (from the pictures) which is too cool. 

Don't remember playing the sand bar, Uh, was there was a green lantern.. winfield? or was that north Ark city? we played in north Ponca off hiway 77, just to the east, again the name evades me, 600 a night and all the drink free,, explains my memory problem eh? HAH, Oh and cassiopias when it came to be. do you remember the Paul Harvey story on Cassiopias? ( would of been early 80's) LMAO!!


----------



## hacksaw

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I remember now.LOL
> 
> Shit happens man. I know!



HAHAH.. yeap.. that was some messed up shit..  Funny now though. 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well if we never met in person, we probably were within 50 feet of each other at some point in time.



No doubt! quite amazing! Nice to meet you Marty! I'd like to chat with ya on the phone for about 30 minutes one of these days. All the way back to the WKY shows! There are ties. 

You ever know a guy named Gary Minner? monster bass player.

This guy look familiar? LOL Ignore that POS amp in the upper right. LMAO


----------



## solarburn

Oooh...got a couple Elmwoods dere! Nice.

Oh not to mention the man cave! Is all that in there yours?

Good to meet ya Hacksaw!


----------



## hacksaw

Good to meet you solarburn! this has been fun! ol marty probably running away now after seeing my mug LOL! Yes,, that is my man cave! All is mine. I have more marshalls.. that's where my heart is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember the Green Door in Ark City, but I don't think they ever had live music. I've been to Winfield many, many times. (I still go to the big Winfield Walnut River Music Festival in September.)

Yes, I can't remember the name of the place in North Ponca, but it used to be quite popular. Pretty good sized place if I recall. $600 a night sounds about right for that place. I seem to recall that the owner was from old Kaw City. Didn't the road out in the front of the club take you to new Kaw City?

And you must be referring to "Herpeopias." To be honest, I only went over there maybe a dozen times when it was hopping. I was dating a really pretty girl at the time, so I really didn't need to go over there to "hook up" and catch the clap.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I remember the Green Door in Ark City, but I don't think they ever had live music. I've been to Winfield many, many times. (I still go to the big Winfield Walnut River Music Festival in September.)
> 
> Yes, I can't remember the name of the place in North Ponca, but it used to be quite popular. Pretty good sized place if I recall. $600 a night sounds about right for that place. I seem to recall that the owner was from old Kaw City. Didn't the road out in the front of the club take you to new Kaw City?
> 
> And you must be referring to "Herpeopias." To be honest, I only went over there maybe a dozen times when it was hopping. I was dating a really pretty girl at the time, so I really didn't need to go over there to "hook up" and catch the clap.


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Good to meet you solarburn! this has been fun! ol marty probably running away now after seeing my mug LOL! Yes,, that is my man cave! All is mine. I have more marshalls.. that's where my heart is.



Holy crappalotta cool gear batman!

Looks like fun to me man. Gat damn!


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is me, second from the left with the long, black hair in 1991. I don't have many pictures anymore. My first wife split on me and took a bunch of my photos (which ended up getting thrashed). My second wife threw out any picture of me with another chick.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh, I've been single since August 1999.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> I remember the Green Door in Ark City, but I don't think they ever had live music. I've been to Winfield many, many times. (I still go to the big Winfield Walnut River Music Festival in September.)
> 
> Yes, I can't remember the name of the place in North Ponca, but it used to be quite popular. Pretty good sized place if I recall. $600 a night sounds about right for that place. I seem to recall that the owner was from old Kaw City. Didn't the road out in the front of the club take you to new Kaw City?
> 
> And you must be referring to "Herpeopias." To be honest, I only went over there maybe a dozen times when it was hopping. I was dating a really pretty girl at the time, so I really didn't need to go over there to "hook up" and catch the clap.



Ok then is there a lantern bar in windfield? I remember it being north of town . Oh well. Then you know of ol roger sparks of sparks music LOL. 

Yes, the road did go to kaw city. I was thinking Hubbard road but not sure.. Hiway 11? 

That's it! Someone give Marty a cigar! 

Solarburn you're gonna love this, Paul harvey show, announced (Cassiopias) herpiopias as the capitial of the united states for deseases LOL!! it was known from there on out as herpitopias. I never heard the show, only the after effects. LOL The place died really quickly after that. 

Great chatting with you on this old stuff, Marty. Thanks.


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> This is me, second from the left with the long, black hair in 1991. I don't have many pictures anymore. My first wife split on me and took a bunch of my photos (which ended up getting thrashed). My second wife threw out any picture of me with another chick.



Seem familiar... Nice to meet ya! same here.. first wife, hell she even tried to hide my les paul, that was grounds enough for divorce. , and then a house fire in 1985 and all my pics were burned up. Sucks doesn't it. All that history just freaking gone.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh, I've been single since August 1999.



Still on wife #2 since 1986. Soo far.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I went to Northern Oklahoma College in 1982-84 and was the guitarist for the Roustabouts. I don't know if you are familiar with the Roustabouts, but they were sponsored by the college and have played all over the world. 

Waddy Pass is a former Roustabout guitarist. I got to see him three years ago when they had a huge Roustabout reunion. I had to make that one. I got to see a lot of people I hadn't seen in a long time.


----------



## solarburn

hacksaw said:


> Ok then is there a lantern bar in windfield? I remember it being north of town . Oh well. Then you know of ol roger sparks of sparks music LOL.
> 
> Yes, the road did go to kaw city. I was thinking Hubbard road but not sure.. Hiway 11?
> 
> That's it! Someone give Marty a cigar!
> 
> Solarburn you're gonna love this, Paul harvey show, announced (Cassiopias) herpiopias as the capitial of the united states for deseases LOL!! it was known from there on out as herpitopias. I never heard the show, only the after effects. LOL The place died really quickly after that.
> 
> Great chatting with you on this old stuff, Marty. Thanks.



That just "taint" right!:eek2:


----------



## hacksaw

MartyStrat54 said:


> I went to Northern Oklahoma College in 1982-84 and was the guitarist for the Roustabouts. I don't know if you are familiar with the Roustabouts, but they were sponsored by the college and have played all over the world.
> 
> Waddy Pass is a former Roustabout guitarist. I got to see him three years ago when they had a huge Roustabout reunion. I had to make that one. I got to see a lot of people I hadn't seen in a long time.



I went to NOC, LOL Man, this is crazy! 

Well kick butt! They put on a great show. I remember seeing the show in, oh crap,. here I go again, 1975 maybe? The show was quite amazing! it inspired me. The entire stage production was fantastic. That must be some great memories!


----------



## hacksaw

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That just "taint" right!:eek2:



aint, tis it!!

 we was all like  


Then 

What a trip it was....


----------



## solarburn

Charlie don't like bad tuna. That's too bad. When its good...its real good.

Well at least most guys heard it was bad. Hate to have gone in and found out the hard way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I graduated from Blackwell High School in 1972. I was 17. My best friend was a real good bass player named Bob Hood. 

I moved to Brownsville, Texas in 1973, but only stayed a year. When I came back, Bob was the bass player for the Roustabouts and Mike Minton was the guitar player. These two guys started a group (with horns which was popular in 1974) and did a lot of playing in Stillwater.

One day, when I was 18, Bob had me pick up these two drop dead beauties. One was Lisa Cannady and the other was Bonnie Heilman. Lisa's dad was the basketball coach and Bonnie's dad ran the NOC music department. His name was Bill. He started the Roustabouts. His son now holds that position with the college. I almost married Bonnie, but instead, realized I was getting way too high and joined the Air Force instead.

Anyway, I pretty much knew all of the staff over at the college. When I decided to go back to school in 1982, Bill gave me a full music scholarship. The only problem is that I did not want to be a music major. So to swing all of this and qualify for my scholarship, I was taking like 20-22 hours per semester. Anyway, like everyone before me, I started a band with the drummer and bass player. It was during this time that David DuVal came into the picture. This project lasted until I left Blackwell in 1984 for Phoenix. I played in the Phoenix scene for many years. My longest project was nine years with a band called the Condors. I really have slacked down a lot in the past year and a half. I just don't have the time to play like I used to. I'm 57 right now and I had a little gig with three other guys up here near Kansas City, but that dissolved and I actually live in a town called Atchison and there is zero action here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RIK-The name of that club north of Ponca just popped into my mind.

It was called Norm's Place.


----------



## hacksaw

That's it! Norms. Good memory you have. Mine, not so much. I gotta crash.. will chat with you guys later! Been super fun and a pleasure. Thank you. Nite!


----------



## solarburn

Nite HS!


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...did a lot of playing in Stillwater...


I played there a couple times around '81 or so. Can't remember the name but some massive club in an old theater. The gig was several days and they gave you a band "apartment" upstairs around back, you wanted a full body condom just to lie on the beds. Good times...


----------



## solarburn

Happy New Years guys!

In case I don't get back on tonite. No drinky drivey! 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUQT4hykPd0&feature=related]ACDC Have A Drink on Me - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm in between action right now. I've been to a dinner and had a few drinks. I am leaving in a few hours to meet some friends at a bar. I have a big Chiefs/Broncos football party tomorrow.

Johnfv-The biggest, most well known bar in Stillwater is Eskimo Joe's. I used to party at it when it was under a different name. That was so long ago, I can't remember what it was. I always remember seeing a band called Zuider Zee. The lead guitarist was thrashed on something, but he played flawlessly. We used to go up there on Friday nights for 10 cent beer night. Later, it was sold and became Eskimo Joe's. Does that name ring a bell? They have always had live music there.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...The biggest, most well known bar in Stillwater is Eskimo Joe's. I used to party at it when it was under a different name...


I have a feeling that is it, same place but previous name. Massive place with a big stage...


----------



## johnfv

*Stupid deal today*

Restock Haze 40 for $499. I have too many amps already but seems like a decent deal... 
Stupid Deal of the Day


----------



## sccloser

Happy New Year everyone! Hope we all have a great year tube hunting!


----------



## dragoneti

Hello everybody and happy new year!!

I would like the opinion of the NOS experts about a preamp tube that i have at my disposal for some time that has labeling as a telefunken (without a diamond mark at its base) but construction wise is more like a tesla ecc83 as far as i can see from web photos to compare with (or worst case scenario a JJ ecc83s although i came from a respectable tube shop to be a fake, but...).

i have taken 3 photos with my camera, i think they should be clear enough...

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Is it real nos or fake?

Thank you in advance!!

Stelios


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Happy New Year everyone! Hope we all have a great year tube hunting!



Thanks! I'm not looking as much as I used to. I've got enough to last me awhile and I'm pissed off at eBay and a buyer who picked up $75 worth of 6L6GC's from me and returned them for what I thought was a BS reason. You can't even leave bad feedback as a seller.

The wife and I took a weekender to Nashville and of course I hit the guitar stores. I've got a bunch of new goodies to play around with. Guitar Center had a great clearance sale on pedals and stuff. Naturally I had to walk out with something. I got a new BBE AM64 distortion pedal for $14.99 - I figure the carling switch and the box and jacks were worth that easily even if the pedal sucks. Got an Ibanez FL9 reissue MIJ flanger for $50, a Hercules wall hanger for $11, a Monster Cable for $12. I bought a Sennheiser E609 mic, too, but it was full price. I'd been wanting one since my SM57 died. I'm going to go unpack some of this stuff and see how it sounds.


----------



## MartyStrat54

dragoneti said:


> Is it real nos or fake?
> 
> Thank you in advance!!
> 
> Stelios



I hate to tell you this, but those are fake Telefunkens. Can you rub on the lettering? Is it painted on or chalky? It looks like it is painted on. The internal tube construction does look like a JJ. The very rare Telefunken 803 had short plates, but this is listed as an 83. Date code is not right. No <> on bottom of tube. Fake.
Sorry.


----------



## dragoneti

Thanks for your answer Marty!

I think its painted... i was afraid it would be a JJ faked...but i wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt...

I have one other... long plate, not at all like this one construction wise, with chalky lettering that rubs very easily, i think its a type 2 build by RFT (no diamond on the underside) to my unexperienced eyes but i want a second opinion so if you can can you take a look to the following pics?

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Thanks again Marty!

Stelios


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I have several of these. They could be Ei's "or" they could be a Telefunken smooth plate copy by RFT. RFT made tubes for Telefunken when Telefunken started slowing down its tube production. Both the Ei (which was made on Telefunken equipment) and the RFT are very similar in construction, because they were basically a copy of a Tele smooth plate.


----------



## dragoneti

Thanks again Marty for you answer!

Yeah i seen these vintage Ei (i had made a search about them some years ago when i had found a pair of brand new nos 6ca7 in a basement) but i think as i have read on the net, the difference between them the tele/rft and ei is on the top of the bottle where ei is more round where the rtf is a bit flatter (like mine)? 

Of course i could be wrong...at least its not a fake JJ... 

I think either of them is considered to sound pretty good, isn't it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, the RFT or the Ei is a good sounding tube. Maybe not as good as a real Tele smooth plate, but pretty close.


----------



## hacksaw

johnfv said:


> I played there a couple times around '81 or so. Can't remember the name but some massive club in an old theater. The gig was several days and they gave you a band "apartment" upstairs around back, you wanted a full body condom just to lie on the beds. Good times...



I remember the theater, I used to go there when they actually showed movies, LOL. Had a cup holder on one side and a ashtray on the other side of each seat. We never went there after it became a bar. I don't know why. 





MartyStrat54 said:


> Johnfv-The biggest, most well known bar in Stillwater is Eskimo Joe's. I used to party at it when it was under a different name. That was so long ago, I can't remember what it was. I always remember seeing a band called Zuider Zee. The lead guitarist was thrashed on something, but he played flawlessly. We used to go up there on Friday nights for 10 cent beer night. Later, it was sold and became Eskimo Joe's. Does that name ring a bell? They have always had live music there.



Been there too on those cheap nights. grab a pitcher and chug, haha! Had a pinball machine upstairs and that was about it. We would head over to wiskers ( I think was the name) and watch a band called crossroads. Man they were great. Ended up with the drummer from that band about 10 years ago for about 2 years, he was a great time clock.

We would start at the Mason Jar and work the strip up one side and down the other then head back to the house at 12th and hudson. Stillwater was great fun!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wouldn't recognize Stillwater. It has grown so much. The last time I was there, I visited with a friend. We went to a bar, but it wasn't downtown. That was in 2000. If I went there now, I would walk around with my mouth open. I guess the strip is high dollar now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just looked up Eskimo Joe's. Apparently they do not have live music there anymore.

It's also more of a place to eat than a place to rock out. It says; "Good for families." That means it ain't my kind of place.

Only got a 3 out of 5 star rating.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was messing with the Sennheiser mic and I'm starting to get a feel for it. It likes it LOUD. I had the master up on around 4 on the Vintage Modern and it sounded OK but I'd really like to get the amp cranking. 

This is the LDR on the amp running a long-plate Mullard in V1. I'm still trying to get a little more bass in the tone without it being boomy. I was playing the Epiphone Special II with the new BBE AM64 and Ibanez flanger. 

This is just a short tone check.
DirtyFlange 1.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sort of sounds like Mick Ralphs (BADCO).


----------



## hacksaw

Sounds good! Through my headphones it sounds like it has good bass in it. 



Marty, 
Would you mind recommending me some tubes for my 72/73 metal panel spec metro 1959. It's ok but not open sounding enough. I usually just run off the shelf in the amps that get a lot of time. I'm thinking of changing it to more of the 68/69 spec.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I was messing with the Sennheiser mic and I'm starting to get a feel for it. It likes it LOUD. I had the master up on around 4 on the Vintage Modern and it sounded OK but I'd really like to get the amp cranking.
> 
> This is the LDR on the amp running a long-plate Mullard in V1. I'm still trying to get a little more bass in the tone without it being boomy. I was playing the Epiphone Special II with the new BBE AM64 and Ibanez flanger.
> 
> This is just a short tone check.
> DirtyFlange 1.mp3



Sounds good Alan. I've always wanted to play around with a 609.

Happy New year!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I was messing with the Sennheiser mic and I'm starting to get a feel for it. It likes it LOUD. I had the master up on around 4 on the Vintage Modern and it sounded OK but I'd really like to get the amp cranking.
> 
> This is the LDR on the amp running a long-plate Mullard in V1. I'm still trying to get a little more bass in the tone without it being boomy. I was playing the Epiphone Special II with the new BBE AM64 and Ibanez flanger.
> 
> This is just a short tone check.
> DirtyFlange 1.mp3



Sounds cool Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, guys. I'm not really happy with it yet. It's still a little boxy sounding to me. I need to record some dry stuff with it and get that dialed in before I add flangers and shit.

Hi Josh!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks, guys. I'm not really happy with it yet. It's still a little boxy sounding to me. I need to record some dry stuff with it and get that dialed in before I add flangers and shit.
> 
> Hi Josh!



Hey Bro!


----------



## RiverRatt

What gets me is how good that $144 Epiphone Special II sounds. I still can't believe they are selling an all-mahogany guitar for that cheap. When I get some cash I'm going to get a pair of MHD pickups for it. The ceramics sound good but I know some good alnicos will make a big difference in the tone. That thing is the best "budget" guitar I've ever played. The only drawback is the bolt-on neck, but the fit is so tight you'll never notice it.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey Bro!



How are things in Middle Tennessee? It's been awhile - we need to get caught up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> What gets me is how good that $144 Epiphone Special II sounds. I still can't believe they are selling an all-mahogany guitar for that cheap. When I get some cash I'm going to get a pair of MHD pickups for it. The ceramics sound good but I know some good alnicos will make a big difference in the tone. That thing is the best "budget" guitar I've ever played. The only drawback is the bolt-on neck, but the fit is so tight you'll never notice it.



The best playing and sounding guitar I ever had prior to finally getting my PRS was an Epiphone... Fer a cheapo it sure sounded goooooood. 



RiverRatt said:


> How are things in Middle Tennessee? It's been awhile - we need to get caught up.



It has indeed been a while, hasn't it? Shucks. I'm plugging along ok. Sounds like you are doin' ok too (judging from your posts).


----------



## RiverRatt

Heh, yeah, it's been a pretty good Christmas. I'll be paying for it for awhile, though. I go through a gear shakedown every year or so. I sell off all my impulse-buys and start over again. I try to hang on to the good stuff.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> What gets me is how good that $144 Epiphone Special II sounds. I still can't believe they are selling an all-mahogany guitar for that cheap...


I'll even bet that the neck/fingerboard joint is flush and smooth


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers...I had to work yesterday so a late HAPPY NEW YEAR>>>>if anyone wants to, I posted an older song of mine recorded in '93 with a real band on the ..oh hell, what's that catorgory called....it's more of a rocker than the other songs....Thx....


----------



## sccloser

61rocker said:


> SC, I like my old DigiTech RP-12...I know where an RP-1000 (I think that 's it) is and on the Nashvile Craigslist, there's an RP-12 for $80 with a soft case and the manual and power supply...if I could get up there, I'd pick it up....
> I saw Blackfoot back up Quiet Riot in Little Rock...I've seen Molly Hatchet on their first tour...38 Special....and Black Oak several times....here was a good lineup one night in the Barn in Little Rock.....Molly Hatchet, Black Oak Arkansas , and The Outlaws......



Do you experience any interruption in the sound when you switch patches during a song with the RP 12?


----------



## 61rocker

It's not really a problem...I gigged with it for years with my superlead...but every so often I take it apart and clean the contact where the footpedals are....once this very hot chic accidently spilled a beer on it....what can I say she was so hot and very embaressed...I couldn't get mad...I wiped it off and made it thru the gig, then later on took it apart and cleaned everything I could with contact cleaner...it still works great....


----------



## sccloser

I see these for sale on CL but I have heard they hesitate when you switch them. May not be a problem but makes me nervous.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have one that I bought new 12 years ago and it does not have any lag when you switch. I used to have it programed so I could go through a set list with it. Maybe I got a good one.


----------



## sccloser

Cool. I like the idea of one floor unit...less to carry.


----------



## 61rocker

sccloser said:


> I see these for sale on CL but I have heard they hesitate when you switch them. May not be a problem but makes me nervous.


I'm going to hook it up maybe tomorrow and check that out...the only real problem I've noticed is that over time it had trouble making contact, so that's why I clean those up every 3 months or so....I use the 1/2 stack setting....and it is a little on the high end sound, but that may be me on setting up the EQ... I compensate that by backing off the treble on my amp.....it has an excellent delay that has tap delay....and a great liquid flange on it....very versatile on it's settings...I had one bank set up for all the effects used on "Semi Charmed Life"....


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Sounds good Alan. I've always wanted to play around with a 609.
> 
> Happy New year!



I messed with it some more last night and got some better results. I was just planning to hang the mic over the cab and let it hang in front of the speaker, but the mic is really lightweight and doesn't sit up tight against the cab. Also, because it's so light, the cable twists it so that it's not pointing straight at the cab. That wouldn't be so bad either if you could control it. One recommended setting is putting it just off-axis and tilted about 30˚ toward the outside of the cone. I believe that it's going to be a really nice sounding mic when I get the kinks worked out.


----------



## sccloser

{crickets}


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm doing my part... it's not much fun talking about the tube auctions I didn't win though. It seems like every 12AX7 tube on eBay is selling for ridiculous amounts until I try to sell some. I thought I had a good chance on a lowball bid for a Realistic Lifetime tube that was a smooth plate. It may have been Ei, Telefunken, who knows? It wasn't a very good listing or picture and I was hoping it would fly under the radar. IIRC it sold for over $20. I'm just not willing to gamble that much money on one tube, especially an unknown.


----------



## sccloser

I had been following some a few months back but like you say it seems the prices get bid up pretty high.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a nice collection with enough of the big names to last me. If I run across a deal I'm going to jump on it, but really there are just a small handful of 12AX7's that I haven't tried that I'd consider paying very much for.


----------



## maltone

Yeah, no kidding, crickets! I guess maybe it was considered a dumb question. But I'll still assume, that Marty's previous post, shielded is V1, everything to the right of V1, is 2,3,4 etc. —*And I did put the Mullards in V1, V2, JJ's for the other 2.

Segue... JCM, my neighbor came over today. He recently acquired a Les Paul Traditional, faded/satin kind of finish. He plugged into the DSL, and it absolutely blew my mind. Since I've had this amp, I've never quite gotten used to the Gretsch's TV Jones Classic Plus bridge pickup through this amp. It's bright, articulated, has some GRRRR, but not like this Burstbucker. OMG!

It was a new experience for me, because normally with the Gretsch, — on the DSL crunch channel, I have to put the volume at half or a bit higher, gain at 4 to get some bite out of it. Through the burstbucker, same setting, we had to turn the gain down to 1.5-2, it was vicious. Forget using the RED channel completely, it was just high gain noise.

The guitar was driving the amp, not the other way around. And for the first time, rolling down the volume on his guitar made sense - and it was also necessary. All of a sudden, I wish I had an SG with that burstbucker, or something with the same bite, but a bit warmer, not SO intense. I could almost get that feedback after playing the intro A riff on "Shoot To Thrill" - almost bang on. I wish TV Jones had a more burstbucker-esque flavoured bridge pickup with that kind of output and honk. Amazing.


----------



## MM54

If you've got American (A)NOS un-exciting stuff you're looking to sell, let me know, we may be able to work something out come spring.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry, I don't have any experience really with JJ or Mullard RI's. It wasn't a dumb question at all. If you use the




tags you can include your pictures in your post - just use the little photo icon in the editor window and paste your URL into it. Like this:






You got them right, BTW.


----------



## sccloser

I have been up doing some promo work for our upcoming show on the 21st. Seems I do everything...lol!


----------



## MartyStrat54

maltone-You should try a DiMarzio Air Zone. They call this their ultra PAF. It is hot at 17.49 DCR, but its output is 323mV, so it is rated as a "moderate" output pickup. This pickup will drive the front end of an amp and still has unbelievable string articulation. You can go from real soft to hard strumming and it tracks it very well. 

A great AC/DC pickup.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> If you've got American (A)NOS un-exciting stuff you're looking to sell, let me know, we may be able to work something out come spring.



Yeah, I probably will. I have several that I never use, early Tung-Sol long black plates, several different era RCA's, GE's, and a few oddballs that I have no idea about. I'm still trying to get the B&K dialed in. I can do big power tubes pretty well but for some reason my 12AX7 readings are all over the place. I hate selling tubes I'm not sure about.


----------



## sccloser

I might be interested in a few of the GE's.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Me again.

Winged C 12AX7, silver plates, box anode, cheapish recent production.

Are they any good tone wise ?


----------



## maltone

Thanks RiverRatt, I've never quite understood what the URL thing meant. I though you needed to use something like imagebin.

Marty, thanks for the info. I know nothing about these types of pickups. It's much easier in the Gretsch world because there are really only 2 vendors: Gretsch and TV Jones. I'd never route out my pickup cavity to accommodate a Gibson style pickup; to Gretsch players this would be sacrilege, and defeats the entire purpose of having a Gretsch in the first place.

I should probably just get another guitar with that type of pickup. I still love the Gretsch, but there's something missing in the signal, not enough mid-range bite, bottom end, meanness etc. TV Jones aren't designed this way. I was playing "Shake a Leg" off the B&B album, and it was the closest I've ever heard it sound through the DSL.

But, I'm so overwhelmed, there's multiples of Gibson style pickups, 57's, 57 Plus, Burstbuckers - 1, 2 & 3. — My friend's burstbucker sounded more like the chords in "Cold Gin" by KISS off the KISS ALIVE album - but even more output. It was actually over the top for me.

I also realized, that a hotter pickup drives the amp's pre-amp section differently than say my TV Jones Classic Plus. Even when I've had the crunch channel on, volume at 5-6, GAIN at 4-5, it sounds NOTHING like this Burstbucker with the volume at 4, gain at 1-2. (This was AC/DC territory) and it had all that familiar mid range GOWNK - that sound. 

I'll definitely check out those pickups for sure. I guess I'm just looking for that hotter feel of the Burstbuckers.. but a bit more "vintage" or warmer. I like the bite, but less noisy, firm yet detailed. I found the Burstbucker's punch amazing, but it was very intense - I still can't get over having to lower the gain knob to 1-2 for a "classic" sound. — Thanks.




MartyStrat54 said:


> maltone-You should try a DiMarzio Air Zone. They call this their ultra PAF. It is hot at 17.49 DCR, but its output is 323mV, so it is rated as a "moderate" output pickup. This pickup will drive the front end of an amp and still has unbelievable string articulation. You can go from real soft to hard strumming and it tracks it very well.
> 
> A great AC/DC pickup.


----------



## RiverRatt

maltone said:


> Thanks RiverRatt, I've never quite understood what the URL thing meant. I though you needed to use something like imagebin.



You still have to use ImageBin or some other hosting site. I don't know about ImageBin, but hosting services like Photobucket provide you with the link with the IMG tags already in place. All you have to do is paste that into your message. I have no idea if any of this is making any sense. I just woke up and I'm not much of a morning person.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Me again.
> 
> Winged C 12AX7, silver plates, box anode, cheapish recent production.
> 
> Are they any good tone wise ?



I don't recall seeing that particular tube before. I do know that the St. Petersburg Svetlana factory never made a 12AX7 unless things have changed over the last couple of years.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I've never seen one with innards like that either, but then I'm not a pro tube spotter either. The construction looks quite distinctive, I'm sure someone will recognise them.

I may grab one & have a play as they are reasonably cheap.


----------



## maltone

RiverRatt - I got it, I've used imagebin and it works well enough.

Pre-amp tube question... If I've put the Mullards in V1 & v2, the JJ's in V3 & V4, is there any better combination? I probably would've bought all Mullards, but they only had 2. I already had a JJ, so I just picked 2 more. It sounds fine to me! 

I still can't get over the growl of that Burstbucker, my god it has balls.


----------



## RiverRatt

Feel free to swap them around - it won't hurt anything. Everybody's ears are different. You can rotate each tube through V1 and see how it sounds. Some may be higher gain than others. You might find that you like a lower gain tube in V1 and a high gain in V2. V4 is also a good spot for a high-gainer. Put your worst sounding tube in V3.


----------



## maltone

RiverRatt, another issue. Let's say my friend's Gibson Traditional with the Burstbuckers are WAY over the top - even on the crunch channel with these settings:

Crunch Engaged
Volume 5
Gain 3-4

If I had a guitar with a pickup on the hotter side (_hotter than my current TV Jones Classic Plus, which is 7.79k DCR, 3.71 H Inductance_) is there any pre-amp tube change that would make the GAIN control more smooth, less over the top to tame the intensity of the Burstbucker?

I suppose you could always go with a slightly lower output pickup (what I don't know)? But, is that something that's commonly done to give a bit more clean headroom, instead of immediate gain? I mean, this Burstbucker was INTENSE. Even on the crunch channel with "moderate" volume 4-5, the gain came on VERY quickly, and anything above 3 was just messy.

Not sure what kind of music you're into. I don't love this band or anything, but I love their _sound_. Listen to the first A chords and riffs of this: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hitWLsvleB0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hitWLsvleB0[/ame] That's basically the tone we got out of the Traditional with the above settings, but not quite as balanced and tight, and a bit noisier sounding.



RiverRatt said:


> Feel free to swap them around - it won't hurt anything. Everybody's ears are different. You can rotate each tube through V1 and see how it sounds. Some may be higher gain than others. You might find that you like a lower gain tube in V1 and a high gain in V2. V4 is also a good spot for a high-gainer. Put your worst sounding tube in V3.


----------



## solarburn

Nice sound. Reminds me of another band...just can't pinpoint it yet...LOL!


----------



## maltone

Solarburn, LOL - there wasn't any sarcasm in that was there? ;-)


----------



## RiverRatt

maltone said:


> RiverRatt, another issue. Let's say my friend's Gibson Traditional with the Burstbuckers are WAY over the top - even on the crunch channel with these settings:
> 
> Crunch Engaged
> Volume 5
> Gain 3-4
> 
> If I had a guitar with a pickup on the hotter side (_hotter than my current TV Jones Classic Plus, which is 7.79k DCR, 3.71 H Inductance_) is there any pre-amp tube change that would make the GAIN control more smooth, less over the top to tame the intensity of the Burstbucker?
> 
> I suppose you could always go with a slightly lower output pickup (what I don't know)? But, is that something that's commonly done to give a bit more clean headroom, instead of immediate gain? I mean, this Burstbucker was INTENSE. Even on the crunch channel with "moderate" volume 4-5, the gain came on VERY quickly, and anything above 3 was just messy.
> 
> Not sure what kind of music you're into. I don't love this band or anything, but I love their _sound_. Listen to the first A chords and riffs of this: Airbourne - Heartbreaker - YouTube That's basically the tone we got out of the Traditional with the above settings, but not quite as balanced and tight, and a bit noisier sounding.



If you want to tame the burstbuckers, try backing them away from the strings a little. NOS preamp tubes will give you a smoother tone but you need to get your guitar dialed in first. That tightness you describe is probably more a function of the power tubes than the pre's.


----------



## solarburn

maltone said:


> Solarburn, LOL - there wasn't any sarcasm in that was there? ;-)


----------



## Lowlife

Blacque Jacque said:


> I've never seen one with innards like that either, but then I'm not a pro tube spotter either. The construction looks quite distinctive, I'm sure someone will recognise them.
> 
> I may grab one & have a play as they are reasonably cheap.



That looks pretty interesting, be sure to report your findings


----------



## RiverRatt

Apparently those pre's are made in St. Petersburg. They must be a fairly new product.

SED: 12AX7


----------



## sccloser

They have the micas that look like they were cut out by child slave labor which is typical of the Russian and chinese cp tubes. But, hey, if they are made in St. P by the REAL Svetlana (SED) then they are probably better than the New Sensor/Sovtek stuff. But I have never seen or heard of them before.


----------



## sccloser

I take that back...those micas look a little bit more consistent than the others, at least in that pic. That is just always something I have noticed. JJ's and NOS tubes usually have nice micas with little points on them and they fit neatly inside the glass tube. MOST Russian and Chinese CP are kinda like rounded squares and do not fit as neatly. They seem to be rugged enough, just do not look as nice.


----------



## mickeydg5

SED =C= have always made 12AX7 tubes. You just do not see them or cannot get them in the US. No one stocks them. I have literature from the mid 90's.

The cosmetics have changed since the SED - Svetlana thing. I believe that someone is putting the squeeze on SED products and that is reason for scarce stock and and high prices.

SED (Svetlana) use to make other tubes not seen any longer like the SV300B, SV83, EF86, 6N1P and a few more. I guess demand is down or SED is being pushed down, head first if you get my drift.

I would like to get my hands on some SV12AX7 tubes one day.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a Svetlana that was OEM in my DSL50. I was told that they were re-branded Sovteks. The construction was pretty much standard Sovtek from that time period. I have a photo of it somewhere on the computer. I'll post it if I can find it.


----------



## solarburn

I have one of these and it is way better than the cardboard Sovtecs excluding the LPS.

Svetlana 12AX7


----------



## RiverRatt

Here it is. You're right, it does look different. The plates and the getter are different from the Sovtek's.






My DSL was made in 2000. It had two of these in it and two Marshall-branded Ei's.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I have one of these and it is way better than the cardboard Sovtecs excluding the LPS.
> 
> Svetlana 12AX7



That one has to be a Tung-Sol RI. It looks exactly like one.


----------



## solarburn

I thought it sounded great in V1. I could roll it against a Tung Sol and see...


----------



## solarburn

Can't get a good pic of the Tung Sol RI from the TS. They have it positioned so you see in between the plates...

Looks like one though. Maybe a Tung Sol that has less gain or a lower gain factor...?


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a sort-of picture from this very thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, that's not the right tube. The micas and plates are wrong. Damn, I'm out there tonight...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> No, that's not the right tube. The micas and plates are wrong. Damn, I'm out there tonight...



Well that ones a 803S.

Here is the description on the SVET:


For several years the original Svetlana 12AX7 tube from St. Petersburg (Winged "C"/SED) tried to develop a good 12AX7 and mostly failed. The current production Svetlana is a New Sensor product and is a member of 12AX7-EH and Tung-Sol 12AX7 family. All three of these tubes is virtually identical. The biggest difference seems to be in plate coating, gain and sound quality. I find the tube to sound a bit smoother than the EH and it has less gain than the Tung Sol. If you are not inspired by the Electro Harmonix and also find the Tungsol too grainy then this is the tube you want to give a chance. It has everything you want in a good pre-amp. Low noise, no Microphonics issues and very clear and open without being too bright. The construction is on par with the more expensive Tungsol. The price point on this 12AX7 tube is great because it will hold its own with more expensive options. Samples seem very reliable. If you like the JJ ECC83S but want something with a litter more glimmer this is where you should put your money.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Here's a sort-of picture from this very thread.



Now that tube has nice micas....that can't be Russian?


----------



## mickeydg5

Those "S" logo tubes are not SED (=C=) tubes.
I do not know if the older Svetlana-SED 12AX7 were good. I never ran across one. I have read different stories and opinions. Maybe there was a reason for no show on the shelves, but I do not believe a company that makes so many quality tubes would make a crappy 12AX7. The current SV12AX7 looks different from most any other I have seen. They seem to be going for $20 - $23 from the little I have found.


----------



## maltone

Wow, those Svetlana's aren't very expensive either.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Those "S" logo tubes are not SED (=C=) tubes.
> I do not know if the older Svetlana-SED 12AX7 were good. I never ran across one. I have read different stories and opinions. Maybe there was a reason for no show on the shelves, but I do not believe a company that makes so many quality tubes would make a crappy 12AX7. The current SV12AX7 looks different from most any other I have seen. They seem to be going for $20 - $23 from the little I have found.



Mine is from before the New Sensor BS. It's a proper Svetlana.

_So which Svetlana is the tube that is true? If you are talking about "new old stock" (NOS)—tubes made before 2000—the words "Svetlana Electron Devices" and the stylized S are what to look for. For recent issues, look for the "winged C." The name Svetlana is still on Saratov-made devices._

http://www.stereophile.com/news/022304svetlana/


----------



## solarburn

maltone said:


> Wow, those Svetlana's aren't very expensive either.



Yeah and just like the Tung Sol RI it sounds good for a CP 12AX7 and is a good V1. I liked it.


----------



## mickeydg5

From what I have always noticed NOS Svetlana (real SED from St. P) tubes came in boxes marked with the winged "C" logo. The "S" logo on them always seemed to be golden, redish or red/black. I do not know if that holds true for every nos Svetlana tube. Another twist is that I did not see codes on the tubes I had, which does not help when trying to identify nos.

The "S" logo and "Svetlana Electron Devices" show up on New Sensor Svetlana tubes. Most of what I have seen are silver or greyish tint markings.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> From what I have always noticed NOS Svetlana (real SED from St. P) tubes came in boxes marked with the winged "C" logo. The "S" logo on them always seemed to be golden, redish or red/black. I do not know if that holds true for every nos Svetlana tube. Another twist is that I did not see codes on the tubes I had, which does not help when trying to identify nos.
> 
> The "S" logo and "Svetlana Electron Devices" show up on New Sensor Svetlana tubes. Most of what I have seen are silver or greyish tint markings.



I don't know... I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. My DSL was made before the New Sensor buyout. It came with two Svetlana-labeled EL34's and two Svetlana-labeled 12AX7's. V1 and V2 were Marshall Ei tubes. The 12AX7's might not be dated, but the EL34's do and they pre-date the New Sensor Svets and were exactly the same as the SED EL34's construction-wise. They also had the exact same logo as the 12AX7's. 

I don't know for sure if Svetlana made those older 12AX7's or had them re-labeled. Either way, they really aren't worth arguing about.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am not arguing. I am just putting my experinces out there.

My original Svetlana EL34 tubes had no date or manufacture codes.

What you seem to be describing are nos Svetlana tubes. I take it that the logo was the "S". What color were the logo and writing markings? Do you have or remember the date codes?

The older nos 12AX7 pictures I have seen look like regular Russian tubes and nothing like in the current production pictures. I guess St. P could have wheeled and dealed with other manufactures, but I have never noticed if that were the case.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just for reference, here's my EL34 alongside a SED =C= and a New Sensor Svetlana in that order. I'm trying to find that Svetlana 12AX7. IIRC it had a date code on it. I know I've still got it, I just can't put my hand on it.


----------



## mickeydg5

Hey, thanks for the pictures. I see that ink color practically means nothing for manufacturer determination then. It does have the classic characteristics of a St.P tube.

I would love to see that SV12AX7 if you can find it. The only picture of one that I have is an old bl/wh printout and is very grainy.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's posted up above (http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/3824-preamp-tubes-who-what-when-where-why-how-438.html#post544234). I went through my tube caddy and loose tubes and I found lots of Russian stuff but I can't find that Svetlana. Either I stuck it in an amp I sold or it's in a box somewhere with the remains of some project I was working on. I usually keep any Russian and Chinese tubes I get to experiment with and to fill up preamp sockets when I sell an amp. I know it wasn't in the DSL but it might have gone out the door with my Ampeg or Harmony that I got rid of this year. 

I remember it was a big bottle, about like the Tung-Sol RI. It couldn't have been any newer than 2007. I can't remember why I think it was an older New Sensor tube but I do remember researching it shortly after I got the DSL. Seems like it looked a lot like one of the old 12AX7WA or WXT tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's another pic of the EL34's:






Jaguarguy here on the forum bought those from me last month. I probably sold them too cheap. New SED's are selling for $150+ a quad. I'd rather pony up another $50 and get RFT's.


----------



## mickeydg5

I see what you mean about the old stock Svetlana markings on the EL34 and 12AX7.

The picture I spoke of earlier showing an Svetlana old stock 12AX7 has short plates, but not squatty, and with 3 holes on each side of the plates along with what looks like 3 horz ribs similar in looks to a GE. The getter is hidden behind the flashing and the glass looks like Russian with that bulgy tip.


----------



## RiverRatt

I learn something about every day or so in this thread when it's moving along like this. This is the kind of discussion that got us going in the first place.


----------



## brp

Pardon my ignorance guys but I need some advice.
As you know, I don't know a great deal about tube amps.

A fuse blew in my Vox Night Train while recording today. I didn't have it cranked or anything, master on around 1pm in triode mode, preamp at about 2pm.

I was tuning, and heard a little "klunk" sound, signal faded, then nothing, nothing out of the speaker at all, no hiss, dead quiet.
What would this fuse be and why did it blow?

Is this something I should be worried about or just something that can happen. In my experience, a fuse blowing indicates a larger problem.
What could have caused this?

No, I haven't put in another fuse as I don't have one. I'll get one tomorrow.

It's says "T160mAL 25OVP". Should I expect to just be up and running with a new fuse or is it likely there's a problem that the fuse is only an indicator of?
Any advice appreciated....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Which power tubes are you running in the NT? I hope it isn't the high dollar one's from Alan. I would take a hard look at the power tubes. Remove them from the amp, change the fuse and power the amp up. If the fuse is okay, turn off the amp and replace the power tubes. If the fuse pops, you have a bad power tube.


----------



## brp

Ya, the Sittard Hollands are in there.
I'll do that as soon as I get a fuse tomorrow, thanks man.

They weren't actually that high dollar, Alan gave me a great deal. Hopefully they're ok. They were still lit up if that is an indication...


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, I hope it's not those Holland tubes either. Check in the fuse holder on the power cable socket - sometimes there's a spare fuse stored in there.


----------



## brp

Never thought to look there lol

The one in there says T125AL 250V.

Neither of the fuses in the amp are that rating


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why when I buy a used amp, I always check the fuses. When I got my Twister, the fuse holder was actually cracked and could have shorted out. You never know. I then found out that the amp had been dropped from about five feet.

Funny thing is, I was able to trace all the prior owners down (on The GEAR PAGE), including the guy who dropped the amp. Several of the guys were real assholes towards me, but they both later apologized to me.

Just a little story. Keep us posted.


----------



## hacksaw

^ seems to happen a lot with twister affiliated folks  Sorry.. <!!!! HAH 



Couldn't resist that one


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Never thought to look there lol
> 
> The one in there says T125AL 250V.
> 
> Neither of the fuses in the amp are that rating



It's probably a T1.25A 250V fuse. 125A fuses are pretty heavy-duty. My Marshall uses a 4A mains fuse. 1.25A would be more in line with what an amplifier would use. The T means it's a slo-blo fuse. It's important that the replacement fuse matches the fuse spec'd for your amp. I'm not familiar with the NT and its fuses. Maybe Joe can enlighten us.


----------



## solarburn

I'd suspect a power tube but do the test Marty said and see. I play mine at volume all the time and not a peep so far. A tube can go bad any time though. Just say'n my NT has been solid excluding a bad power tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bill, let me know if you have a bad tube. I have one more from that set that matches the two you got. I'll send it to you if you need it. I've got it in my little AC4TV mini right now. It's not exactly the best amp for tone checks. I've got a half-dozen or so oddball EL84's right now and nothing to do with them. I need a Class 5 or something. I saw a used one in Nashville at GC for $299. I had my credit card with me, too. I also had my wife with me. She thinks I have enough amps and guitars.


----------



## brp

Heheh,

Ya, I meant 1.25, that's what it says on the back right by the fuse holder in the power cord compartment too.

So why'd they give me that in there if it doesn't match what the amp has in it. The other fuse (I mean the other fuse spot in the amp, not the one that blew) uses a T6.3AL and the one that blew is a T160mAL, so the extra doesn't match either one?


Also, there was no smell or anything when it stopped working so that's a good sign, and all 4 tubes were still glowing.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sometimes a power surge or spike can pop a fuse. It may turn out to be a non-issue. If there is only one fuse in the power cable socket, it's probably in the circuit and not a spare. Some have a storage space for a second fuse.

If the power tubes are lit up, it's most likely the HT fuse. When it blows, it would have the same effect as putting the amp on standby. If you know how to safely poke around in an amp, take each fuse out and check it for continuity. I've had fuses that looked perfectly normal that were burned out.


----------



## RiverRatt

.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey all. I got my free Tung-Sol KT66's today. I put them in the VM and biased them up HOT. The lowest I could get them was around 39mV. The plate voltage was right at 444V. I started dialing them in for tone and I hit the sweet spot at around 48mV. I know that's high but they never broke a sweat. I've heard it said that the Tung-Sol KT66's are really KT88's relabeled. I don't know about that, but when I got these things dialed in they are the best I've tried so far. I compared them to a pair of Russian Gold Lion RI's and the stock Marshall Shuguang tubes. Not bad at all. They have that great percussive Marshall attack.

Since I had the power section speaking to me, I started messing with the preamp tubes. I left the chassis out of the box while I was working with the KT66's, so I moved some preamp tubes around. With a long plate Mullard in V1, a BEL in V2, a Raytheon black plate in V3 and a strong 1960's Amperex short plate for a PI. I'm now rethinking my Raytheon/V2 rule, at least for the Vintage Modern. If I hadn't remembered the BCS championship game, I'd still be back there playing. This amp is sounding GOOD.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Alan, by any chance with that Tweaker deal, did I get an RCA 5751 from you? I found one today and cant remember where I got it.


----------



## brp

So I picked up some fuses today (yes exact same spec as the blown one).

Came home and popped in the 2 BP Raytheon 84's that Marty gave me, replaced the fuse and the amp seems to be working fine.

I just went to put the Holland tubes back in after letting the BP's cool and when I picked up the first one I noticed right away that it has gone all milky white around the top and there's significantly less of the coating at the top that was there, now only about half of what is in the other one.  I know this happens when vacuum is lost.

I assume there's no point putting them in to see if it works and that I've found the reason for my blown fuse.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Hey Alan, by any chance with that Tweaker deal, did I get an RCA 5751 from you? I found one today and cant remember where I got it.



No, all the ones I have are GE or Sylvania. Does it have black plates and triple micas? The only primo tube I remember putting in the Tweaker was a Matsushita long plate in V1. V2 and V3 aren't gain stages so I used whatever was cheap and handy there. There's a chance that one of the GE or Sylvania 5751's ended up in there but it's not likely. I watch those things pretty closely. I don't have a lot left.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> So I picked up some fuses today (yes exact same spec as the blown one).
> 
> Came home and popped in the 2 BP Raytheon 84's that Marty gave me, replaced the fuse and the amp seems to be working fine.
> 
> I just went to put the Holland tubes back in after letting the BP's cool and when I picked up the first one I noticed right away that it has gone all milky white around the top and there's significantly less of the coating at the top that was there, now only about half of what is in the other one.  I know this happens when vacuum is lost.
> 
> I assume there's no point putting them in to see if it works and that I've found the reason for my blown fuse.



I sent you a PM.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> No, all the ones I have are GE or Sylvania. Does it have black plates and triple micas? The only primo tube I remember putting in the Tweaker was a Matsushita long plate in V1. V2 and V3 aren't gain stages so I used whatever was cheap and handy there. There's a chance that one of the GE or Sylvania 5751's ended up in there but it's not likely. I watch those things pretty closely. I don't have a lot left.




No this wasnt in the Tweaker. It was in a box. I never bought one from Marty, the only Tubes I have bought from him were Philips, Mullard, Sylviania, Telefunken and Raytheon.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know... I remember bringing you a few goodies but if I brought a 5751 it would have been a Sylvania or GE. I know for sure there was an Electrohome 12AX7. I've never even owned an RCA 5751.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hmm.. Interesting.. On the side it has 5751 Made in USAA (yes with 2 A's) 
On the other side it has red lettering that looks like it said RCA


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I sent you a PM.





Back atcha.
Thanks for your help with this everyone. Man, I've had some bad beginner's luck with these NOS power tubes, but hey, 40-50 year old tubes, I'm impressed any of them work TBH.

Alan's hooking me up with a replacement, although not expected by me for the record. He's going above and beyond for me, thanks for that Alan.
If I buy the Tweaker this weekend as planned (95% sure I am) I'll buy some of those power tubes you recommend for it too. 

By the way, Marty, the BP 84's sound great in the Night Train . Thanks again! 
Bit of a smell coming off them but I assume this might be normal from a tube not fired up in who knows how long, if ever. Could be degraded labels burning?


----------



## solarburn

Damn Bill! You are having some bad luck with these power tubes burning out. Just to let you know you're not alone I have bought and sent back quite a few amps because something was wrong with them. It happened to me so much I just considered it a normal process with mail order. 

My neighbor use to laugh at how many times this would happen. He could get stuff and everything would be fine. With me it was a freak'n miracle I got one that worked right the first time. My family would just shake their heads and know Dad's gonna order another one after he gets his money back from the bad one. I was determined to pay the least amount(no taxes online)that I could even if it meant waiting through the refund or exchange processes.LOL

I've had pretty good luck with tubes. Its the amps for me that give trouble.


----------



## solarburn

Oh...Alan's good people. I see he's taking care of you already.LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Aww shucks... 

Bill, what happened to the bad tube? Did it crack around the pins? I've had a couple of 9-pin tubes do that this past year.


----------



## brp

Yes it appears that it did. Never really looked hard until you mentioned it but yes sir there it is.
I wasn't messing with it or nothing, it's been in there untouched since I got it and working fine since however long that was.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a little Crate Vintage Club combo that broke two RFT 12AX7's. The springs in the tube shields were unbelievably strong. I took them out and cut about half of the coils off and didn't have any more problems. I think it was the pressure of the spring combined with the heat that caused them to crack.


----------



## RiverRatt

How absolutely ironic. UPS just delivered my EL34's this morning. Check 'em out. Do you think they'll still work in my amp?


----------



## MM54




----------



## sccloser

Wow! That SUCKS Alan!


----------



## brp

Ouch!


----------



## solarburn

Good grief. 

Killed a very nice EL34.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, I think I'm gonna cry. You guys must have been cursed by the tube demon.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, it's mainly Groove Tubes' fault. Those used to come in a nice box with two tubes in it. It had cutouts in the bottom for the guide pins and larger cutouts in the top to hold the tubes firmly with about .5" between them. They still ship them in a 2-tube box, but it no longer has the cutouts in the top section to hold the tubes apart. You see the results.


----------



## brp

That's a damn shame. So the 2 are just banging together in the box?
I assume they're replacing it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They were doing the two tube boogie...boogie all night long.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> That's a damn shame. So the 2 are just banging together in the box?
> I assume they're replacing it.



I had to wait until I got home this evening to email the shipper. I probably won't know anything until tomorrow afternoon. There's really no way of knowing who broke them. The UPS box was undamaged but if they were drop-kicked into the plane at the UPS terminal that would have done it. Believe it or not, this is the first time I've had to deal with tubes that were broken in shipping either to or from me. Most all of mine go USPS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me tell you that Alan was real good at cramming a lot of tubes in a box.


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> How absolutely ironic. UPS just delivered my EL34's this morning. Check 'em out. Do you think they'll still work in my amp?



Being no tube guru, it appears the vacuum is lost in one of your tubes


----------



## sccloser

***UPDATE***

Ok, so I finally got another speaker in the DSL 401. I put an old Celestion G12-65 in it. First thing I noticed was that it had WAY more bass response and no ice pickiness like the celestion gold series speaker that was in there. Second thing I noticed was that it was difficult to clean up the clean channel...always a little break-up. So I decided I needed to swap the tubes around.

Because I was trying to get more bass with the gold speaker, I had switched the power tubes to el844's. This also noticeably decreases the volume and also gives earlier saturation and power tube break up. So I took them out and put the Ei el 84's that came in it (and checked good) back into it. HUGE improvement. Cleans again could be clean. Volume was noticeably louder. (I should have checked decibel levels but I always forget I have that decibel meter I got on sale at Radio Shack for $14). Was sounding better, but now, with the good speaker in it, you can better distinguish tone from the preamp tubes. Before, I could tell differences, but they were small enough that I just stuck the JJ's back in. But now those JJ's sounded a little sterile and I wanted to get the G chord growl and they weren't cutting it. I stuck a Sylvania in for the PI, left a JJ in v3 which I think is for reverb, and started swapping in different tubes. I eventually settled on some strong Sylvanias in v1 and v2. They give it some edge and lots of midrange, with the growl that I like. I experimented a little with a Sylv in v2 and a Mullard in v1...fuller sound, especially the cleans, but growl was less prominent. So I said "hot dog" I'll save that mullard for a better amp...LOL!
Anyway, the Sylvanias are sounding pretty good in it right now. I may roll a few more before Saturday. Then I will give it a true test and try it a band practice.

This I do know...to my ears, it is hard to get a dsl 401 to sound good. I am using my class 5 at practice right now, treb/mids dimed, bass to 0, with a Boss GE7 in front for lead boost, and it is hard to beat tone wise. I have an Ei in v1, Tungsgram v2 and a Mullard el 84 in it. I'd like to get this dsl401 up and running good enough to use for some shows where stage space is limited...it could be versatile. But if it can't get close to the c5's tone, I will leave it at home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I left a comment over on the Power Tube thread. 

I will add here that I think a DSL401 is very sensitive to the tubes that are in it. The bias is another thing to consider. My first 401 was a 1999 model. This amp was biased very hot. The one I have now is the later, modified model. However, I took this amp to my tech when I swapped out all of the tubes. I went with Canadian RCA 6BQ5's and then an Amperex Bugle Boy in V1, Raytheon Black Plate V2, Electrohome V3 and a 59 GE in the PI. My tech had the amp on the scope and to remove the crossover distortion, the amp was biased at 800mV's. (This is actually 80mV's as the bias reading comes off of a one percent, 10 ohm resistor.) So, my point is, if you don't have the bias set just right on these amps, they are going to sound really bad. It might be worth the money to have a tech set your amp up on an O-scope and check out what it is really doing.

I remember really liking the 1999 401. The Gold Celestion didn't sound bad in that hot biased amp. Maybe it could be that the Gold did sound good in the hot biased amps, but not so good in the cooler biased amps. I do know this, good tubes and a good speaker will really turn the 401 into a nice combo gigging amp.


----------



## sccloser

Yeah, I do not have an el84 probe to check the bias in the dsl 401. I was under the impression that power tube bias was not as critical in these amps, though I am sure it will effect the tone.

My gold speaker sounded OK and lower, in home volumes levels, but sounded like crap cranked.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know that a lot of people just pop power tubes in and out of these amps. As I said, using an O-scope to find the ideal bias setting (with the power tubes you are using) is very important as a way to dial in good tone.


----------



## sccloser

I know where an O scope is and it is Cheap! I have not used one since 1986. Not sure if I can even remember how...lol!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a short video about crossover distortion. As I said earlier, it occurs in cold biased amps and will make the tone of your amp suck badly.

Video: How to Correct Crossover Distortion on a Tube Amp | eHow.com


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a couple of 1965 Matsushita 12AX7's and one Tungsram today. I think the Matsushitas are as good as the I63 Mullards but a little different tone-wise. The Tungsram is one of those tubes that doesn't distort, it just gets punchy and thick as hell. Combine that with some cookin' KT66's and that Vintage Modern is sounding good. 

I'm impressed by the Tung-Sol KT66's. I got a pair of them from Musicians Friend (thanks dread and Lauren!). They dialed in hot, around 48mV, but they aren't even breaking a sweat. I've read a couple of posts that accuse them of being KT-88's. They definitely sound better than the Gold Lion or stock Marshall Chinese tubes. They have a metal base so you have to get rid of the tube retainers.


----------



## BluesRocker

I have a set of those Tung Sols but they were supposed to be matched but when I was biasing them in they were 10 mA off. So I never got the chance to really work with them in the VM


----------



## RiverRatt

Mine are dead even. I mean identical. The amp seems so much more alive now, and you know how good it was sounding when you had it. It has that old Marshall almost percussive attack now. The closest thing to what I'm talking about is the "Ain't Talkin' 'bout Love" intro. The Dimarzio bridge pickup in my Heartfield is cranking out some tone, too. I was thinking how big and full the tone was, then realized I had my volume knob about halfway rolled off. 

Do you remember what the bias readings were that you were getting? I've got the Tung-Sol's running at around 48mV. The plate voltage was around 444V and the screen was at 441V.


----------



## BluesRocker

No I don't remember what it was. But I'm thinking somewhere between 65 and 70 percent.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Mine are dead even. I mean identical. The amp seems so much more alive now, and you know how good it was sounding when you had it. It has that old Marshall almost percussive attack now. The closest thing to what I'm talking about is the "Ain't Talkin' 'bout Love" intro. The Dimarzio bridge pickup in my Heartfield is cranking out some tone, too. I was thinking how big and full the tone was, then realized I had my volume knob about halfway rolled off.
> 
> Do you remember what the bias readings were that you were getting? I've got the Tung-Sol's running at around 48mV. The plate voltage was around 444V and the screen was at 441V.


 
With those numbers, it seems you are using the old absolute maximum rating system. Does New Sensor/Reflektor publish any rating numbers?


----------



## sccloser

***UPDATE***

Used the DSL 401 at band practice today. For the most part it sounded pretty good. It does not cut through on the OD1 or OD2 like the C5, but the Green channel is great and sounds really good boosted with the Boss GE7. It is pretty mid rangey with the Sylvania tubes I have in it right now. I may experiment with those a bit more. But it does not sound like it is playing through an aluminum foil speaker anymore, which is a plus. I think that it would be usable for small gigs where stage space is limited, which was my goal in this to start with.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> With those numbers, it seems you are using the old absolute maximum rating system. Does New Sensor/Reflektor publish any rating numbers?



Ok, I should say that I don't have anything but time invested in these tubes. One of the reviews I read of the Tung-Sol KT66 said that they sometimes need to be biased WAY above 70% to sound good. Maybe their dissipation is better, I don't know. They do seem to be bigger than the other KT66's I have. I also read a review that said that they bias like a 6L6GC but sound like a KT66. 48 is right about 70% for a 6L6GC at my plate voltage. I know internet reviews aren't the best way to bias your amp, but I didn't have anything to lose as long as I watched them closely for awhile. I played for an hour or so with the chassis out so I could see what they were doing. I tried the Shuguangs and the Russian Gold Lions again and the Tung-Sol was the clear winner. I popped in a pair of nice 6L6GC's just to see if they were close and they were within 2mV of the Tung-Sols.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well, that is cool, just keep that eye on them. What amp, is it modded?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, it's a stock Vintage Modern 2266 head. It doesn't need any mods.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Nah, it's a stock Vintage Modern 2266 head. It doesn't need any mods.


 
Hey, that amp is suppossed to bias up at 48mV.

Check out MertoAmps schematics under VM if you don't have them.


----------



## RiverRatt

No I don't have any VM documents. Thanks!


----------



## mickeydg5

I should have placed this in my last post.
MetroAmp.com Forum &bull; View topic - VM schematics


----------



## RiverRatt

I found them easily, but thanks again. Why do you think their recommended bias is so hot? The math says it should be more like 39mV. It's strange that I just ended up at 48mV and that is the Marshall-approved bias setting, but that's where the tubes really came to life.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, I passed 5,000 and didn't even notice it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Congratulations Alan. You have posted a lot of good stuff.*


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I found them easily, but thanks again. Why do you think their recommended bias is so hot? The math says it should be more like 39mV. It's strange that I just ended up at 48mV and that is the Marshall-approved bias setting, but that's where the tubes really came to life.


 
The calculations you made used your numbers.

You need to use Marshall and GEC's design numbers.

This is how I perceive and calculate Marshall's bias:
The 2266 schematic indicates 330VAC at PT secondary. That translates to approximately 422VDC at your plates. GEC KT66 rates 25 plate watts and 3.5 screen watts. Round it up to 29 watts.
(29/422)*70%= approx. 48mA

Remember that there are usually +/- tolerances of 20%.
ie.: GEC's 25 watt plate at +20% = 30 watt (notice - absolute maximum)

This to me is biasing high.

Your plate voltage is about 5% higher, but well within range. If your were to bais with Marshall's design numbers at your plate voltage it might end up between 49-50mV.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Mickey. That does make more sense.

Back to preamp tubes, I've been watching a trio of Matsushita long plates on eBay. They are already at $42 with 8 hours left in the auction. I was thinking about trying to win them, but they are about at my maximum already. Back when we were just getting fired up here, I bought 3 of those very same tubes for $15 shipped.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks Mickey. That does make more sense.
> 
> Back to preamp tubes, I've been watching a trio of Matsushita long plates on eBay. They are already at $42 with 8 hours left in the auction. I was thinking about trying to win them, but they are about at my maximum already. Back when we were just getting fired up here, I bought 3 of those very same tubes for $15 shipped.



I think this thread drove the price up...LOL!


----------



## mickeydg5

Those Mats look clean.
How does that long plate compare?


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Those Mats look clean.
> How does that long plate compare?



Night and day. The long plate ones are a lot like a Mullard long plate. They are a little darker and more hairy than the more recent Matsushitas and Mullard I63 tubes. All the older ones with long plates have D getters. Sometime around 1960 they switched over to the 45° getter and short plates. The short plate tubes sound OK but they don't have as much character as most other Philips tubes from the 1960's. 

I've passed a few of them around between some of the regulars here and everybody liked them, except Marty. I know Joe, Josh and Cody all have had one and they really liked them. I think the long plates are the ones that started all that "Japanese Mullard" crap that 99% of eBay auctions mention in some form or another. They are really similar.


----------



## mickeydg5

That was in the back of my head. I wondered if they were like the claimed Japanese Mullard. I have read things like that. Well, I thought remembering that the Mitsushita plant was set up by Mullard or with Mullard equipment.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matsushita was making tubes well before Philips came along. IIRC Philips only owned a 50% share in Matsushita. They are as much a Mullard as an Amperex is a Mullard. I don't know exactly when they started making the Philips-style 12AX7. The oldest ones I've come across have been from 1958. They use an abbreviated Philips date code that is the last number of the year and the month of manufacture is represented by the letters A to L. This code is usually repeated once, like 9H 9H and it is printed on the tube. This scheme was used in the 1950's and 1960's. I've never seen a Matsushita with etching on it. They have a Philips factory code but AFAIK it never appeared on their tubes. 

I think I have a few of the older ones hanging around. Do you want to try one?


----------



## mickeydg5

That was Panasonic, who ended up doing business with Philips after the war.
I have never tried their tubes. To tell the truth, I have not touched any amps lately.

I read sometimes that tubes are sent out. What do you guys do, mail them back and forth?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, it only costs around $5 to send a small Priority Mail package with tracking. I've never lost a tube.

I knew about the Panasonic connection. They are still one and the same. In 2008 they dropped the Matsushita name company-wide and everything is Panasonic now.

I went and recorded a clip just to show the difference I'm talking about. It's not really good, but you can tell a difference. The first part is a long plate Matsushita, the middle part is a long plate Mullard, and the 3rd part is a 1965 short plate Matsushita. Both long plates have a similar basic tone but you can hear a shift in the mids with the short plate tube. It's more upper-mids than the other two. At least that's what I hear. YMMV.

tubetester.mp3


----------



## mickeydg5

I tell you what, I would like to do that when I get back into picking up a guitar again. I am not a player, but plan on trying more when I get back around to guitars, tubes and amps. I have other tubes I want to try out and compare. Everything is sitting right now. Maybe after brushing the rust off and actually playing I will get something to record with too. At this time I have nothing that will record with any sort of quality. I want to have the ability to record decently when I compare things.

Raincheck though, I will take you up on that later.

The recordings were good enough. I hear the differences. The Mat longs sounded as if they had more presence, the Mullard was a little more open and smoother and the Mat short fell in between with the mid shift towards low. As far as higher gain, it was respective, the Mat long then the Mullard and last the Mat short. How do they score on your tester?


----------



## RiverRatt

I have no idea how they test. I had them in boxes with their test scores written on the box. They've been in and out of so many amps that I don't even remember what's what.

That mic was a new Sennheiser E609. I'm starting to find the sweet spots with it. I had been putting it on the bottom left speaker but I moved it up to the top one and it's picking up more of what I'm hearing live. I'm using an old Mac G4 with Garage Band and a cheap M-Audio USB interface. Computer, mics, interface and all you're looking at a few hundred dollars. It doesn't have the horsepower to do a full master on. More than 4 or 5 instrument tracks and it starts to act weird. I'm hoping we'll have a good excuse to upgrade the iMacs at the office and I can appropriate one of them.


----------



## mickeydg5

That sounds like a plan, for computer upgrade. That is the guitar cab mic. So does the "guitar" part make a difference?

I was thinking a Roland or Zoom handheld for recording live 3D. I'll wait and see what is out when ready, that is several bills.


----------



## RiverRatt

The E609 is a good guitar amp mic. It's supposed to handle high SPL's without distorting. I had the Vintage Modern set up with the master volume and body & detail all at 12 o'clock. I just hung the mic over the cabinet and put it on the top left speaker. Any distortion is from me digging in too hard and clipping the signal. I'm still learning the mic. It ain't an SM57.


----------



## brp

Just thought I'd bump this off of page 3 w/ a little blog.

I've been sick as a dog AND looking after my sick kid all week and haven't had much of a good chance to enjoy my new Tweaker unfortunately.
I have some new tubes on the way from Alan for it though so I'm looking forward to trying it out with those.
I'm glad I didn't wait for info on the mini Marshalls because there's no way I'm paying those prices for a 1 watter.
It sounds like they'll be great sounding amps and I could afford one but c'mon, I can get an actual DSL or JCM800 for the price of the mini versions. By all accounts, I can get decent Marshall tones out of the Tweaker and even the Night Train w/ NOS tubes, boost and EQ.
I don't see those selling that well but I could be wrong. Look how many people here at Marshall fan central who were excited to get one that say they won't be now at the prices being quoted.

Going to do a trem block upgrade on my Kramer and a new pickup as well, not sure what to go with yet, looking at the trembuckers and the airzone. Definitely something I can coil-split. I want to get it sounding as good as is possible.


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers....been away for a while....Hope everyone had a Great New Year!!! Peace


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys. I've been lurking around too, but I don't have anything much to add to the world's knowledge of preamp tubes at the moment. I got handed a couple of Matsushitas and a Tungsram last weekend and I've really been liking the Tungsram in V1 of the Vintage Modern. I have a couple of those now and they are a great V1 tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's so slow, it's boring.


----------



## RiverRatt

Everything is slow right now. Business is slow, too. For us, it's a mixed blessing. Up until Christmas we do great, then there's two months of nothing while everyone recovers from their insane holiday spending. I'm as guilty as anyone. I spend too much money and then have to pay for it for the next year.


----------



## RiverRatt

I put a listing in the classifieds for some preamp tubes I'm weeding out. These are all great tubes but don't see much use. I have no real reason to hang onto them and I need to fund some guitar purchases and repairs. Fair prices, no eBay to fool with. Check 'em out. If there's something you want that you don't see, just ask. I also have a bunch of used 6L6GC matched pairs that are available for $25 a pair.


----------



## brp

I think I'm going to have a good amount of tubes for me to last a little while.
Also I just spent >$600 last weekend at GC plus another $150 in gas for the weekend.
Got some guitar upgrades of my own coming up and I want to do a hardtail Strat build project.
Good luck with the tubes sales, probably have no trouble selling them.


----------



## MM54

I saw your tube listing, Alan. Come spring when I building orders of CA10's I'll be on the hunt for American 12AX7's, I'll keep you in mind


----------



## sccloser

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's so slow, it's boring.



I was out Rocking & Rolling! First gig of the year!

A fan snapped this shot of me on the edge of the dance floor. I move around a lot. 




[/IMG]


----------



## solarburn

SG for the win!!!!!

Fun!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, can you send that photo to me in hi-rez? I want to print a poster-size copy and hang it behind my one little Marshall half-stack just so my wife will get the message!



Do it on wallpaper in mural size... That'd be sweeeeeet.


----------



## RiverRatt

It might look too Guitar Centery.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> It might look too Guitar Centery.



Well... I can't really argue with ya on that count... But its still likely the closest I'll ever get to a wall of Marshalls!


----------



## sccloser

bump...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow...let me sweep the floor it's getting dusty in here.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey Tube Hounds! 

Great clip Alan! The Matsushita's have a nice top end bite! I still need to get a couple for the collection.


----------



## MM54

I have a clock sitting here (it's the awesome kind that flip down a new number every minute) that, on the back, is marked "Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., Japan"

It's a nice clock.


----------



## brp

Hey Marty, I know you told me this before but I can't find the info.

What's a good choice for a tube in place of a 12AX7 for a mic preamp that has a tube processing stage? It's got a stock Sovtek 12AX7WA in it.

I think you might have said a 12AT7, maybe it was a 12AU7 that's advisable for mic preamps? Not sure what you said, meant to make note of it but lost it.

Just trying to get the best choice in this budget tube mic pre that I have here....


----------



## RiverRatt

Bill, the old 5751's have a great tone that's every bit as good as a 12AX7 but are a little cleaner. I'd be interested in hearing how one would perform in a mic. If I send you any more tubes, I'll put one in there for you to check out.


----------



## brp

Cool, Alan thanks. I may actually grab some more of you in the near future and you're giving me more reasons to all the time 


The problem I'm having with this preamp's circuit though, is that it's TOO clean and the tube process seems to do nothing at all. There's no breakup or saturation tone even when applying the maximum "tube process" effect. It's ike the tube doesn't get enough signal to break up at all, even when pushing the input gain pretty high, up close to 0db.

I could try adding more gain at input but I'm in danger of clipping and still no discernable "tube saturation".
It seems It would need a tube that breaks up easier than the stock Sovtek. I have a couple to try in it and I will, just looking for advice on what I might get to try that I don't have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The tube I was talking about is a 12AD7. Others include the 12DF7, 12DM7 and 12DT7.

These are all exceptionally quiet 100mU tubes.

All these tubes were made in limited quantities towards the end of tube production.


----------



## brp

Thanks!
And these would swap in for a 12AX7?
Given the "limited quantities", Are they rare/pricey?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's funny. Some tube websites state that these tubes were USA made only. Not true. All of my 12AD7's are made by NEC Japan. You can find them on EBAY. Depending on how they test, they can be about $30 on up.

I think I have about six or seven of them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Is there physically room for a 12BZ7?


----------



## brp

Well, room is very tight, barely able to get the shielding sleeve off the 12AX7, I have to finesse it around the other components that the sleeve runs into when trying to remove it from the tube.

There's only room if the 12BZ7 is the exact same size as the 12AX7. Is it? By you asking, I'm assuming it's bigger.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, they are somewhere between a 12AX7 and an EL84 in size. Maybe around 1/2" taller than a 12AX7.


----------



## brp

If that's the case, I'd never get the shield on it.
There is VERY little room to spare in the design of this mic preamp.

I'm not even sure a 1/2" taller tube would go in, even without a shield.
In this design, the tube slot sits on a daughterboard running along the side of the unit chassis with the mainboard on the bottom of the chassis (think of an "L" shape with the horizontal part of the L being the daughterboard and the vertical part of the L being the main PCB), so when installed the tube sits parallel with the main PCB, and there is some caps on the PCB that prohibit inserting a taller tube. It MAY fit but I can confidentally say that there would be no room to get a shield on.


----------



## gameshound

Hey all

so I either got a great buy or I am a huge sucker
bought a pair of "12ax7a" 10m tubes...Mullard

only thing is that the lettering is small and white..unlike any 10m pictures I have seen before... they als have lettering that says
"bva".."made in usa"..
They do look to my eye to have the right plate structure for the phillips/mullard family so we will see

guy has low but 100% positive feedback

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/150746927553?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Fell free to chime in and let me know what you think

what ya think Marty???


----------



## brp

gameshound said:


> guy has low but 100% positive feedback



Unfortunately all of it as a buyer not a seller from what I can tell. It would seem he's never sold anything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I spent some time researching the Mullard USA tubes and didn't find any positive information.

I never heard of Mullard USA tubes. The logo on the tubes is different than anything I have seen. 

Never heard of them.


----------



## gameshound

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I spent some time researching the Mullard USA tubes and didn't find any positive information.
> 
> I never heard of Mullard USA tubes. The logo on the tubes is different than anything I have seen.
> 
> Never heard of them.


 
Hmm...maybe it's on of those "relabelling " things

I blew the picture way up and I belive I can see a "seam" on top

Will make sure to update once I get them

Gameshound


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the logo is painted on, then it isn't a vintage tube.


----------



## sccloser

I had some 10m 12at7's once. They were made in Great Britain. The labeling on the tube was fancy...I think it may have been gold colored but do not remember. So, they labeling on that does not look like the one's I had. And the one's I had did not say Mullard on them, either.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think they are Mullards. I've seen all kinds of tubes end up with a USA stamp on them. The exhaust tip looks like a Mullard, the seams on the top mean it was a Philips tube of some kind. They look like late 1960's I63 production. How did the seller decide they were from the 1970's?

As for the 10M part, this is from audiotubes.com:

*Watch for the Mullard "10M" series of ECC83 tubes in the distinctive royal purple and gold boxes. These sweet tubes were factory screened for a 10,000 hour heater life, matching internal triodes, and low noise, rather like the Telefunken ECC803S tubes. The 10M Master Series has gold plated pins, and the 10M Concert Series has standard pins. Demand and scarcity has driven the price of these babies to record heights lately.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a typical Mullard. The BVA logo is encircled with an oval and the word Mullard is part of the shield. The "V" is larger than the "B" or "A." This is not the case with the EBAY tubes as the letters are all the same size. Also, the BVA logo was dropped on later production tubes.






Also, the EBAY Mullards are a slant getter style.


----------



## RiverRatt

One is slanted, the other looks like a halo. I can see similarities between these and the 12AT7WA/CV4024 that Joe likes so well. It's not exactly the same, but it looks like the same era as the tubes on eBay. IIRC these were made up into the 1980's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this picture out. Kudos to whoever put this together.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a later production tube than what I posted as it has the word "Mullard" below the shield.

Ah what the hell...they're made on Mars.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've seen that before. Look at the plates on the 56.


----------



## mickeydg5

gameshound said:


> Hey all
> 
> so I either got a great buy or I am a huge sucker
> bought a pair of "12ax7a" 10m tubes...Mullard


 
I have never seen 10Ms marked like that. Look close at the construction, I believe that they were made in India.


----------



## RiverRatt

I see what you mean. The label reminds me more of the Mullard CV4004 but the getter looks right for a BEL.


----------



## mickeydg5

The BEL plant could have marked it any way desired. I have a yellow labeled Sylvania that looks identical.

The getter, glass, plates, micas and pin connections; all exactly like BEL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I can see India doing something like that in the early 70's.

At least BEL's sound good.

...but they ain't no 10M.


----------



## wakjob

Ok Marty, Still bored?

I have an older Engl Blackmore that is not getting much love these days since I bought and tweaked the circuit in an Artist head.

Currently there is all JJ ECC83S in the preamp.

I find that I no longer care for the 'razor amp' style gain this thing offers. I know little about what to try in the preamp to get a more classic 80's Marshall sound....if its even possible? Any suggestions?

I would hate like hell to get hooked on NOS tubes, so I'd like to stick to new production types.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well first I got to know if the 5881's are Sovtek's?

Secondly, I don't like the all JJ preamp lineup.

If you are wanting to cut gain, the JJ 803 is lower gain. However, it is a long plate and has gotten some bad press about tending to be microphonic. You might want to try a 5751 and see if that is okay, or if it takes too much away.

I recommend the Tung-Sol for V1 and it is a brighter sounding tube.

All the current production 12AX7's have a target of 100mU of gain. The 5751 is 70mU. Changing 12AX7's will change the tone, but the gain will be about the same. (Note: Some CP tubes have a hotter gain like the Chinese Shuguang's. You would probably want to avoid these.)

The ENGL has four 12AX7's and is set up a lot like a DSL preamp. You are limited with what you can do with CP tubes. If it was mine, I would go with a medium gain 12AX7 in V1 and V4.


----------



## sccloser

wakjob said:


> I would hate like hell to get hooked on NOS tubes, so I'd like to stick to new production types.



Why? You can buy many US made NOS tubes for $5 to $15 each. Some of the CP stuff costs more than that. With many CP tubes costing $17 plus shipping, why not pop $25 to $35 for a real nice NOS? 

RiverRatt is selling lots of nice preamp tubes right now in the classified section for less than CP stuff.

I bought some NOS Sylvania's from a guy last year for $8 each. Nothing really spectacular about them, but when I replaced the JJ's in my dsl401 (and those JJ's were new and just recently installed) they sounded a heck of a lot better and cost less $.

Just something to think about.


----------



## brp

Indeed. You should pick up some fo RiverRatt's deals in the Member' Classified section.
You won't regret it!


----------



## wakjob

Yeah, they are all Sovtek 5881's.

I don't mind loosing some gain. This thing has boat loads to spare. I find myself playing with less and less gain these days. 

My dream tone would be like a really good medium gain crunch that feels as fluid under the fingers as if the gain was full on. I'm guessing that compression is the key here? But would prolly sacrifice dynamics?

I have a Tung-sol RI, and tried it in V1 the other day...too bright. Engl's are already kinda on the bright side.


----------



## wakjob

sccloser said:


> Why? You can buy many US made NOS tubes for $5 to $15 each. Some of the CP stuff costs more than that. With many CP tubes costing $17 plus shipping, why not pop $25 to $35 for a real nice NOS?
> 
> RiverRatt is selling lots of nice preamp tubes right now in the classified section for less than CP stuff.
> 
> I bought some NOS Sylvania's from a guy last year for $8 each. Nothing really spectacular about them, but when I replaced the JJ's in my dsl401 (and those JJ's were new and just recently installed) they sounded a heck of a lot better and cost less $.
> 
> Just something to think about.



Ok, I'm game. Any particular brand NOS 5751 to look for?


----------



## sccloser

wakjob said:


> Ok, I'm game. Any particular brand NOS 5751 to look for?



Good decision!


----------



## wakjob

Ok, I was puttsin around some Engl forum talk and people say a 5751 in V2 is just the ticket for wiping out the fizz in the gain structure. I want that. 

Marty, what kinda numbers should I be looking for in a medium gain 12ax7? Also, what brands are good?

I did read a lot of people's remarks about the reliability of current production preamp tubes. Lots of comments like " sounded great for a few hours, then went microphonic ". Been hearing that quite a bit actually. So maybe NOS is the way to go.


----------



## c588

my RI tung sols sound pretty kick ass


----------



## sccloser

Yes, the Tung Sols are probably some of the better sounding CP 12ax7's available. I bought 2 of them. After a couple of months, one still works. I have not used it lately.


----------



## sccloser

I opened my mailbox this afternoon and there was a Mullard in it! Tests real strong, too!

Thanks, Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

wakjob said:


> Ok, I'm game. Any particular brand NOS 5751 to look for?



I've got some GE's listed in the Classifieds. They are good but I believe the Sylvanias are better. It may be splitting hairs but they just seem to have a little more mojo or whatever you call it. Anything from the 1950's with triple micas a and black plates is going to be a good sounding tube. Stevie Ray Vaughan supposedly used Sylvanias. I have a couple of Sylvanias from the 1960's that have green print and only two micas. I haven't tried them in an amp and I just got rid of my Fender so I really don't have a good test subject.

I'm not that familiar with the Engl amps. Is V2 a gain stage or is it doing something else?


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> I opened my mailbox this afternoon and there was a Mullard in it! Tests real strong, too!
> 
> Thanks, Alan!



No problem, Vic. I opened my tube caddy last night and it was like a family moved out. Gonna have to start building back up again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wakjob-I would hook up with River Ratt and get one of his 5751's. 

Now as far as medium gain 12AX7's, you have to have a tester. I have some nice one's that I could pass on for $25 to $30.

I will also add this. It is important that the 5751 be tested as many 5751's tend to test very high in gain. I have seen 5751's test almost as hot as 12AX7's.


----------



## sccloser

Ok....DSL 401 UPDATE.....

I just got back from band rehearsal just a little while ago. I moved the NOS Sylvania I had in v1 to v3, and I put the mullard I got from Alan into v1. So I am running:
v1 Mullard
v2 NOS Sylvania
v3 NOS Sylvania
p.i. NOS Sylvania

Power tubes are Ei el84's.

This was a big improvement. The mullard is fuller sounding, across the frequency range. Compared to the NOS Sylvania, it is not as mid range heavy. Also, the Mullard is smoother sounding. Even the clean channel sounds sweeter. And it cleans up better when you roll off the volume. 

Right now, with this tube combo and the vintage g12-65 speaker, this is the best that the dsl401 has sounded. I mostly run it on the green channel and hit it with a ts-9 clone for od and then add in a Boss GE7 for solo boost. Cuts through better than using od1 and od2 on the amp.

But I did notice od1 and od2 sounding better that before with the tube change.

Now, Marty or anyone else, I am pretty sure that the v3 in the dsl 401 controls the reverb, but does it also have another function? Before I moved the Sylvania from v1 to v3, I had a JJ in v3. I was just wondering if this was also affecting my tone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DSL 401

V1A/B-Primary Gain
V2A/B-Additional Gain
V3A-Reverb Driver
V3B-Tone Stack Cathode Follower
V4A/B-Phase Inverter

Depending on what channel and mode you are in dictates which gain stages are being used. OD2 uses four gain stages to my understanding.

Keep in mind that no matter what channel or mode you are using, you are using at least one side of the Mullard (V1). Everything starts with the Mullard. The tone of the Mullard will be prevalent as it goes through the other stages. While the Sylvania's do add a little to the tone, the overall tone will be the Mullard.

*Thanks Mickey, I was thinking of a DSL50.*


----------



## mickeydg5

sccloser said:


> Ok....DSL 401 UPDATE.....
> 
> Now, Marty or anyone else, I am pretty sure that the v3 in the dsl 401 controls the reverb, but does it also have another function? Before I moved the Sylvania from v1 to v3, I had a JJ in v3. I was just wondering if this was also affecting my tone.


 

V3 recovers for both the reverb and the effects return as well as feeds the tone stack. I would keep a strong tube there and only a 12AX7 type, no 5751, because of the cathode follower situation.


----------



## RiverRatt

Vic, you need to grab a Raytheon 12AX7 for V2. It is the perfect compliment to a Mullard or similar tube in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> V3 recovers for both the reverb and the effects return as well as feeds the tone stack. I would keep a strong tube there and only a 12AX7 type, no 5751, because of the cathode follower situation.



Thank you. I edited my post. I was thinking of the DSL50. It's hard keeping up with all of the amps out there.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ah, Marty, what you had was fine.
I just wanted to mention the reverb circuit placement (between V2b and V3a) and to note not to use a 5751 at V3. There had been mention of 5751's latley, just be careful where they are placed.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I will also add this. It is important that the 5751 be tested as many 5751's tend to test very high in gain. I have seen 5751's test almost as hot as 12AX7's.


 
I have to ask about or interject on this comment.

Are you saying that a 5751 that test 85 has as much gain as a 12AX7 that also test 85 on a (B&K) tester?

Gain is the product of the resistance multiplied by the mutual conductance. A 5751 would have to read nearly 38% higher to meet the gain of a 12AX7.

If a 12AX7 = 85, then a 5751 would have to read 117 to match gain.

I hope that makes sense to everyone reading.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Vic, you need to grab a Raytheon 12AX7 for V2. It is the perfect compliment to a Mullard or similar tube in V1.



I only have one Raytheon BP and it is in my mkiii. I have a Raytheon GP but I am sure it is not the same.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I have a B and K 707 and if you have a similar B and K, you know that to set up a 5751 for testing you put the heater to 12V and the sensitivity to 85. If the tube reads at least 22, it is a good tube. A 12AX7 is set up the same way and tests the same way.

You tell me.

I have a pair of USA Tung-Sol 5751's that tested 39-47 and 52-55. My experience with the 707 tells me that 12AX7's that test at 30 to 35 are high gain tubes. What would 55 be like? Well I sent the tubes to a guy who was experimenting with 12BZ7's and he sent the tubes back because they distorted his amp in the gain slots.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Also, I have found that the Sylvania grey plates tend to be really high testing tubes (12AX7). I usually put these in the PI slots and they work really well.

When I sell my tubes I will use tubes that read between 30 and 35 for the V1 slot and also if necessary, the V2 slot (DSL/TSL).


----------



## RiverRatt

I agree about the 5751's. They may not match on paper but when you match them up with the right amp they have plenty of gain. I sent Joe a couple for his Monza and he really liked them. They don't really sound bad in V1 of a Marshall, they just don't have enough gain to hit the second stage hard enough. It might be interesting to put one in V1 of a Marshall and use a boost on it.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey-I have a B and K 707 and if you have a similar B and K, you know that to set up a 5751 for testing you put the heater to 12V and the sensitivity to 85. If the tube reads at least 22, it is a good tube. A 12AX7 is set up the same way and tests the same way.
> 
> You tell me.
> 
> I have a pair of USA Tung-Sol 5751's that tested 39-47 and 52-55. My experience with the 707 tells me that 12AX7's that test at 30 to 35 are high gain tubes. What would 55 be like? Well I sent the tubes to a guy who was experimenting with 12BZ7's and he sent the tubes back because they distorted his amp in the gain slots.


 
I should not have used 85 since it is the sensitivey number for a 707. 22 is the minimum on that tester for a 12AX7 or 5751. Based on the design of the B&K, 34 would be the "as new" reading. So a 5751 would have to read 47 to equal the gain of the "as new" 12AX7. So yes, those 5751's were testing very high, as long as the voltages stayed fairly consistent with that of normal 5751 and 12AX7 tubes.

On another note, I do not like the way people lump 12AX7 and 5751 types together. I know that the 12AX7 was used as prototype for the 5751. Their characteristics only coinside at the low voltage end of the spectrum, coinsidently where tube tester manufacturers aim for transconductance readings. As each tube walks away from that test point spec, they act different. 

I guess another way to put it is that a 5751 is as much a 12AX7 as a 6550 is an EL34.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ratt
nice stash of 5751's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks. I picked those up for next to nothing from this old amateur radio guy. I think I ended up with over 20. I don't have that many left anymore.


----------



## gameshound

RiverRatt said:


> I see what you mean. The label reminds me more of the Mullard CV4004 but the getter looks right for a BEL.


 well hey hey hey

you guys hit the nail on the head...the plates have the "semi circle"...cut out on both sides!!! You can see right through there!!!
guess I am a sucker!!
when something looks to good to be true..it probably is!!!
bugger dinged me extra for shipping as well!!
gotta talk a bit more with him though..find out if he's a scammer or just someone who really didn't know the difference
I have 2 other bels in my collection..looks like I have a quad now!!
Gameshound


----------



## brp

Just about to retube my Tweaker but not sure what 12AX7 I should put in the preamp and specifically V1. What do you guys think? I'd like to maximize the Marshallness.
Here's what I have available:

- Matsushita (thanks again Alan!)
- Black Plate RCA (Baldwin marked)
- Grey Plate RCA (Thanks Marty!)
- G.E. 7025 (Electrohome marked)

I also have a NOS Sylvania, it's in the PI of my Night Train but I could swap that around with something from above, or a CP JJ or Sovtek. Also have a RFT in the V1 of my Night Train, kinda want to leave it there though.

I was planning to leave the V2 and V3 stock for now in the Tweaker to see how the Power and V1 rolling sounds, but any of the above could be used for V2/3 as well. The stock 12AX7's in the Tweaker are Electro Harmonix.

Any input appreciated....


----------



## RiverRatt

Put the Matsushita in V1 which is the socket closest to the front of the amp. V2 and V3 aren't gain stages and any decent 12AX7 will work there. I like a Matsushita in V1 of the Tweaker. They are good tone tubes and don't cost a fortune. 

This is from the Tweaker 40 but the layout is the same as the 15.


----------



## RiverRatt

By the way, you may want to leave the back and top panels off the Tweaker for awhile. Once you get started swapping power tubes, it can be addictive!


----------



## brp

Cool, yes I was looking around for the slot info, hey guess what? I found it in the manual still in the box!  Good on Eganter for including that in the manual.

Ok, thanks, I'll give the Matsushita a go, that's why you gave it to me afterall. Just thought I'd throw out there what I have available.

And I'm going to take your advice on the panels as well  I actually haven't ever put the lid back on my Night Train since first rolling tubes in it either lol

You told me your Tweaker came with Sovtek 12AX7'S. Mine has EH Egnater marked ones. Did you say Sovtek in error or are mine just different?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll check and see. I can't remember where I put them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey guys, I will be spending less and less time over here. I have moved over to the new Marshall Heads Forum. Here is my Tube Thread. I will be over here to check messages and maybe make an occasional post. You are welcomed to join me over there. Marty

Marshall Heads Forum &bull; View topic - Tubes, Tubes, Tubes!!!


----------



## solarburn

I'll head over there soon as I get time. Been too busy lately to even post...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, how ya doin? Hope everything is going as well as can be.


----------



## mickeydg5

I hope I did not come across as a pompous prick in those 5751 post. Sometimes I read my stuff and wonder. I just like dicussing the technical side of things.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, how ya doin? Hope everything is going as well as can be.



Yeah its go'n as good as it can. Just been too busy to hang here long enuff to post up.

Good news is I'm getting another Marshall. A classic from the late 70's hehe. Will arrive this week. I'll let you know all about it...after I give it a good humping...I mean thumping!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, Marty's already spilled the beans on your new amp. Congrats! I'll never own a 70's Marshall unless someone gives it to me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got out and made a photo of my tube collection. These are the "outdoor" tubes. I have a couple of caddys indoors with the good stuff in 'em. Matt, now you'll see why I'm so slow to ship any of these out. One box takes a half hour to sort throught. The bags can take a couple of hours. The problem is, a lot of the boxes have a number printed on them, a new number written on top of that one, and the tube in the box sometimes doesn't match either one! 7 Hefty bags... jeez. I didn't realize how many tubes there are.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, Marty's already spilled the beans on your new amp. Congrats! I'll never own a 70's Marshall unless someone gives it to me.



Hahaha! I was wondering if he said anything...

You no likey the JMP's?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got out and made a photo of my tube collection. These are the "outdoor" tubes. I have a couple of caddys indoors with the good stuff in 'em. Matt, now you'll see why I'm so slow to ship any of these out. One box takes a half hour to sort throught. The bags can take a couple of hours. The problem is, a lot of the boxes have a number printed on them, a new number written on top of that one, and the tube in the box sometimes doesn't match either one! 7 Hefty bags... jeez. I didn't realize how many tubes there are.


----------



## BluesRocker

Wow Alan.. You could light up Vegas with those tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahaha! I was wondering if he said anything...
> 
> You no likey the JMP's?



I love JMP's. I'd have a house full of them if I could afford to. I might could sell everything I own except the plywood Squier strat and afford one.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I love JMP's. I'd have a house full of them if I could afford to. I might could sell everything I own except the plywood Squier strat and afford one.



Hahaha!

This one has a loop on it too which I prefer although I was willing to make my delay work in front. Never comes off the way I want that way but its do-able especially when using it sparingly like I do.

Now I just need a LP to go with it! Still plan on putting some SD's in my EC1000 though. That guitar was going to be my LP...


----------



## 61rocker

Hey Rawkers.....Just a couple of things.....I haven't been here much cuz I've been playing in two bands trying to get one off the ground still here in Memphis, and tweaking the other one in Little Rock to be ready to play soon. I've seen a lot of people are on this FB page (which I liked....) saying how they hate the forum....I'm not one of them....as long as I see the people here on this thread, I'm sticking around....just hadn't had much to contribute lately....
I picked up this cabinet last week at my tech's shop....it's a '94 1960AV with the Vintage 30s...this thing sounds nothing short of super freakin' awesome....speakers are broken in nicely....it's really so much better sounding that the 75 watt speakers, and the ones in my other cab are broken in nice and sound good....Paid $460 + tax so $500 total....not too bad...as I've said before..I don't mind supporting Brian and his shop....


----------



## solarburn

61rocker said:


> Hey Rawkers.....Just a couple of things.....I haven't been here much cuz I've been playing in two bands trying to get one off the ground still here in Memphis, and tweaking the other one in Little Rock to be ready to play soon. I've seen a lot of people are on this FB page (which I liked....) saying how they hate the forum....I'm not one of them....as long as I see the people here on this thread, I'm sticking around....just hadn't had much to contribute lately....
> I picked up this cabinet last week at my tech's shop....it's a '94 1960AV with the Vintage 30s...this thing sounds nothing short of super freakin' awesome....speakers are broken in nicely....it's really so much better sounding that the 75 watt speakers, and the ones in my other cab are broken in nice and sound good....Paid $460 + tax so $500 total....not too bad...as I've said before..I don't mind supporting Brian and his shop....



Great score on the cab. I like V30's with certain amps and of course having it be a Marshall cab rawks!


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> I got out and made a photo of my tube collection. These are the "outdoor" tubes. I have a couple of caddys indoors with the good stuff in 'em. Matt, now you'll see why I'm so slow to ship any of these out. One box takes a half hour to sort throught. The bags can take a couple of hours. The problem is, a lot of the boxes have a number printed on them, a new number written on top of that one, and the tube in the box sometimes doesn't match either one! 7 Hefty bags... jeez. I didn't realize how many tubes there are.



My missus would kill me if I used that kinda space at home for tubes...not that I wouldn't like to if I could


----------



## Lowlife

Hiya tube gurus, i recently came across a Telefunken E80CF tube, is that in any way applicable to the tube amps we use?


----------



## mickeydg5

Lowlife said:


> Hiya tube gurus, i recently came across a Telefunken E80CF tube, is that in any way applicable to the tube amps we use?


 
That is a triode-pentode. I do not know of any musical amplifiers which used that.


----------



## E Fo

Hi Guys (And Gals of course...)

I just, by accident, came across a Marshall VS 8280. A 1996 tubed pre-amp 2x12 combo for only $ 60, so.....

I bought some new pots (all of them actually) and replaced them for about $ 40.

Sold my old Samick cheap@&# 30 Watts soundabuser for $ 40.

Now i'm confused about the tube. I found so many on the net and the prices vary from $8 to $80. 

Could someone please tell me what the differences are and if they're worth the extra bucks?


----------



## mickeydg5

E Fo said:


> Hi Guys (And Gals of course...)
> Now i'm confused about the tube. I found so many on the net and the prices vary from $8 to $80.
> Could someone please tell me what the differences are and if they're worth the extra bucks?


 
Check out the TUBE facts and info thread on the WORKBENCH section and search this thread for tubes to place in the V1 slot. That can guide you on which tube(s) to search out and use.

Some might suggest Tung-Sol or JJ's when talking current production tubes. The prices you will see cover current production (new) and old stock. The old stock may range from cheap to very expensive. A quality NOS tube, a premium old tube that is unused or test as new, will command a high price. Lots of users prefer old stock over new for there quality and longevity.


----------



## E Fo

mickeydg5 said:


> Check out the TUBE facts and info thread on the WORKBENCH section and search this thread for tubes to place in the V1 slot. That can guide you on which tube(s) to search out and use.
> 
> Some might suggest Tung-Sol or JJ's when talking current production tubes. The prices you will see cover current production (new) and old stock. The old stock may range from cheap to very expensive. A quality NOS tube, a premium old tube that is unused or test as new, will command a high price. Lots of users prefer old stock over new for there quality and longevity.


 

Thanks Mickeydg5,

I'll go and check it out. 
Like i said, the amp came very cheap. Even with all the pots replaced (17 pcs). so you can understand i'm not planning on spending too much on the tube. 
The Amp is about 15 yeares old and still carries the original marshall ecc83 tube. I know the pre-amp tubes don't wear off as quickly as the full tube amps, so i'm not even sure if i really need to replace it in the first place. 
Can it indeed make that much of a difference? (The tube seems to 'glow' just fine with no anomalies, as far as my noob eyes can see)

Excuse my english btw, I'm Dutch....


----------



## mickeydg5

I say keep the existing tube for sure. I am sure it has plenty of life. But if you can get your hands on a good ECC83/12AX7 cheap, grab it, even just for reference or comparison.

I do not know how much difference swapping the tube will make in that amplifier. It is worth trying. And you can start collecting a stash of tubes for when you get the full blown valve amplifier.


----------



## RiverRatt

I never throw away tubes, even weak ones. Some will drop to about 80% and stay there forever. These can be really sweet sounding tubes. 

If you want to spend a little more money and get something good, there are plenty of people here (like Marty) who can sell you a tube for a decent price. If you decide you don't like it, you can usually sell it on eBay for most if not all of what you paid for it.

If you're not sure which tube to buy, just ask for opinions. I'm sure you'll get some answers or at least as close as we can come to an answer. 

If you want something really nice, try to find an older long-plate Mullard. It's OK to buy used as long as the tube is tested on a decent tube tester and guaranteed.


----------



## RiverRatt

It would probably be a good idea to post your question in the Workbench about your specific amplifier as well. You'll get some different opinions.


----------



## tresmarshallz

Hi, I friend of mine just gave me a box of pwr and pre amp tubes, there was a 12ax7 in it labeled REAL. That is the only word I saw on the tube.

Has anyone seen one of these and can tell me who made it or if it is of good quality? I suspect it is from the early 90's.

thanks

Drew


----------



## mickeydg5

drdowell said:


> Hi, I friend of mine just gave me a box of pwr and pre amp tubes, there was a 12ax7 in it labeled REAL. That is the only word I saw on the tube.
> 
> Has anyone seen one of these and can tell me who made it or if it is of good quality? I suspect it is from the early 90's.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Drew


 
Give some pictures, this would help to figure a brand or logo.


----------



## RiverRatt

It could be part of the word "Realistic", the Radio Shack house brand. They relabeled tubes from just about everybody. I've seen the largest numbers of them as either relabeled RFT or Matsushita tubes, but they could be anything. Like Mickey said, we need a pic to give you a real answer.

Does it match either of these? The top ones are Realistic/Matsushita and the bottom one is an RFT.


----------



## sccloser

I have a realistic 12ax7 made in Korea.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have some tubes made in Taiwan.


----------



## gsf1200r

what country of origin are the best?


----------



## tresmarshallz

finally got a pic of it, hope it helps...it is definitely just the word REAL, not realistic and it says 12ax7a on it...

I am not sure how to post a pic to a thread, so I put a pic of it my marshall profile album at this location
Marshall Amp Forum - drdowell's Album: Real 12ax7 - Picture 

thanks in advance if anyone can offer a clue as to what it is...

to my untrained eye it just looks like a generic china type 12ax7, I'm sure it's nothing special, probably just a run of the mill tube


----------



## johnfv

I think it must be from the old Tube Works Real Tube stuff. Logo looks the same, here are some examples:

Tube Works B.K. Butler Real Tube BT-902 12AX7A Guitar Overdrive Rack Mount Unit | eBay

eBay - Tube Works Real Tube RT 902 Overdrive Preamp, Similar items search


----------



## gameshound

johnfv said:


> I think it must be from the old Tube Works Real Tube stuff. Logo looks the same, here are some examples:
> 
> Tube Works B.K. Butler Real Tube BT-902 12AX7A Guitar Overdrive Rack Mount Unit | eBay
> 
> eBay - Tube Works Real Tube RT 902 Overdrive Preamp, Similar items search


 
Hmmmm
looks to me like it could be an EI..yugoslavian....got those long unribbed plates!!!

what you other guys think?

Gameshound


----------



## tresmarshallz

> Hmmmm
> looks to me like it could be an EI..yugoslavian....got those long unribbed plates!!!



if so, then which slot do you think would be recommended for it in my old single channel marshalls with three 12ax7 slots?

thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

gsf1200r said:


> what country of origin are the best?



Any Philips made tube in Europe and Britain. Amperex, BEL, Dario, Mullard and Valvo to name a few.

Telefunkens as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

drdowell said:


> if so, then which slot do you think would be recommended for it in my old single channel marshalls with three 12ax7 slots?
> 
> thanks



I always try new tubes in V1 first. That's going to make the most tonal difference. If you don't like it there, try it as a phase inverter.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Any Philips made tube in Europe and Britain. Amperex, BEL, Dario, Mullard and Valvo to name a few.
> 
> Telefunkens as well.



Tube break for a second.

I just plugged my EC1000 into the JMP and wow its gets a great hardrock tone no problem. Those actives hitting the front end put it into another gear. I haven't tried boosting it yet with the strat. You know I'm thinking of getting different pups for the strat or a whole other fiddle. There are some real flat spots in the volume control. It will go from clean with bite but a bit brittle to dull and flat in the middle and then full out a bit much in the low mids.

Guess I'm not liking the eq curve on those pups anymore. Man when I plugged in the EC1000 it had a whole other eq curve with emphasis on mids and less low end but still meaty. I don't think the ESP will have problems cutting.

I fired up the DSL for a time. Poor thing. Don't know what's ailing it. Lethargic and dull. Its a shame.

Are there any nice Epiphone LP's available...that sound great for classic rock to hard rock?

Ok back to toobs...


----------



## tresmarshallz

@solarburn, I enjoy reading your tube amp reviews and such, I didn't know you had picked up a JMP, that is awesome! I have a 78 JMP 50 watt that Joey Voltage modded, I see yours was Wilderized. 
Maybe one day we can get some sound clips and see how they differ or compare...


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> @solarburn, I enjoy reading your tube amp reviews and such, I didn't know you had picked up a JMP, that is awesome! I have a 78 JMP 50 watt that Joey Voltage modded, I see yours was Wilderized.
> Maybe one day we can get some sound clips and see how they differ or compare...



Why thanx drdowell. I'd love to hear JV's voicing on yours. Soon as I get settled in with mine a bit more I'll put up a clip. What cab/speakers are you using on yours? I'm using a 412 loaded with GB's right now but amp considering getting a 412 loaded with G12M-65's. What guitar you like using with your JMP? Play classic or heavier rock or both on yours? It will do metal with a boost.


----------



## tresmarshallz

> Why thanx drdowell. I'd love to hear JV's voicing on yours. Soon as I get settled in with mine a bit more I'll put up a clip. What cab/speakers are you using on yours? I'm using a 412 loaded with GB's right now but amp considering getting a 412 loaded with G12M-65's. What guitar you like using with your JMP? Play classic or heavier rock or both on yours? It will do metal with a boost



Joey did a good heavy rock boarderline metal sound with my high input and left the low input stock for a good cleaner sound, all my 412 cabs are complete bastards, of WG greenback clones, v30's, 75's. I use my PRS and Strat and play heavier stuff on them and use a keeley modded sd1 and TS9 to push them into overdrive for leads and heavier chords. I love the JMP, even more than my 800, it is just such a clear and pure tone to it that I've never heard in any other amp, and with Joey's mod it give's it the gain it needs to compete with more modern music. I just put some GE 12ax7's in it that RiverRatt sold me that really helped.

I just bought a tascam DR-40 digital open-air room recorder so hope to get some clips of the JMP up soon. Did you buy your JMP off of Marty, just curious cause I thought he had a wilderized jmp.


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> Joey did a good heavy rock boarderline metal sound with my high input and left the low input stock for a good cleaner sound, all my 412 cabs are complete bastards, of WG greenback clones, v30's, 75's. I use my PRS and Strat and play heavier stuff on them and use a keeley modded sd1 and TS9 to push them into overdrive for leads and heavier chords. I love the JMP, even more than my 800, it is just such a clear and pure tone to it that I've never heard in any other amp, and with Joey's mod it give's it the gain it needs to compete with more modern music. I just put some GE 12ax7's in it that RiverRatt sold me that really helped.
> 
> I just bought a tascam DR-40 digital open-air room recorder so hope to get some clips of the JMP up soon. Did you buy your JMP off of Marty, just curious cause I thought he had a wilderized jmp.



Yeah its Marty's JMP. I just took it for another spin using the EC1000 with 81/60's in it and I have never had that guitar give me dynamics until now. It made notes chewy with mids. The strat using Carvin drop in pups HSS sounded ok with no boost but this is the first time the ESP has sounded better with an amp playing rock. I planned on changing the EMG's to some Dimarz SD's or maybe try some PAF styled pups when I bought it. I love the looks of the EC1000 and I can fly on the neck when I want. Really easy to solo on. I'll get the passives later now.

So Marty put in V1 a Dario, V2 a Raytheon BP and to finish it off a really strong Mullard in the PI. The power tubes are the EH 6CA7's. I have a Route 808(TS derivative)and my fav a TOD by Dano to push the front end with. I haven't used either and I don't see using them with the EMG's. I'll try them out later with my other passive fiddles. I was surprised to hear the amount of gain the amp has alone. I know Wilder's tweaks can add some without adding another preamp tube. I need a delay pedal. Thinking of getting a Carbon Copy delay...

Wilder added a loop to mine that you can bypass out of the circuit with a toggle switch on the back as well as a +4/-10db toggle switch and a pot to adjust the levels. So he did a bit of a revoicing and added the loop.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That JMP would turn on with an Air Zone, so if you got a SD it will be even better. Is your Tele working? I thought it had a PAF and SD in it? Maybe I got that wrong.

The longer you use it, the more you will appreciate what it can do.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> That JMP would turn on with an Air Zone, so if you got a SD it will be even better. Is your Tele working? I thought it had a PAF and SD in it? Maybe I got that wrong.
> 
> The longer you use it, the more you will appreciate what it can do.



Frets need a crown job. It has SD's in it. Would be perfect I think for the JMP. I'm actually get'n some cool stuff off the ESP with the 81/60's.


----------



## tresmarshallz

> Yeah its Marty's JMP. I just took it for another spin using the EC1000 with 81/60's in it and I have never had that guitar give me dynamics until now. It made notes chewy with mids. The strat using Carvin drop in pups HSS sounded ok with no boost but this is the first time the ESP has sounded better with an amp playing rock. I planned on changing the EMG's to some Dimarz SD's or maybe try some PAF styled pups when I bought it. I love the looks of the EC1000 and I can fly on the neck when I want. Really easy to solo on. I'll get the passives later now.
> 
> So Marty put in V1 a Dario, V2 a Raytheon BP and to finish it off a really strong Mullard in the PI. The power tubes are the EH 6CA7's. I have a Route 808(TS derivative)and my fav a TOD by Dano to push the front end with. I haven't used either and I don't see using them with the EMG's. I'll try them out later with my other passive fiddles. I was surprised to hear the amount of gain the amp has alone. I know Wilder's tweaks can add some without adding another preamp tube. I need a delay pedal. Thinking of getting a Carbon Copy delay...
> 
> Wilder added a loop to mine that you can bypass out of the circuit with a toggle switch on the back as well as a +4/-10db toggle switch and a pot to adjust the levels. So he did a bit of a revoicing and added the loop



congrats on that aquisition! You are going to love it, and decked with quality preamp tubes like that I bet it is dynamic as all hell.
Yeah we are going to need to hear clips of that bad boy soon


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> congrats on that aquisition! You are going to love it, and decked with quality preamp tubes like that I bet it is dynamic as all hell.
> Yeah we are going to need to hear clips of that bad boy soon



Hahaha! WE get to enjoy a great amps! I've got quite a few tubes in stock too so I can play around with it. I don't see any need to right now though. I'm gonna get my axes in order and go from there.

Its good to have another Marshall again.


----------



## Lowlife

Any hints on what would be the best lineout of preamp tubes in a JVM 410H. I play a crunchy melodic rock, and NOS tubes will be included.


----------



## RiverRatt

If anyone is interested, I have a B&K 707 tube tester for sale. Check it out over in the Classifieds.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the reason, a B&K 747. I got this baby from Goodwill's online auction site for a really nice price! The readings I'm getting are right where they need to be but the needle is a little erratic. I doubt that the electrolytics have ever been replaced. IIRC there's one in series with the meter that causes the needle to jump around when it gets weak.


----------



## gameshound

RiverRatt said:


> If anyone is interested, I have a B&K 707 tube tester for sale. Check it out over in the Classifieds.


 hey

are you open to trades on this?
P.m and let me know

Gameshound


----------



## Lowlife

Could be interested, but the postage to Europe would kill me


----------



## solarburn

Wanted to drop by and say hello!

Oh...and I keep wetting myself when I play my new old JMP!

If Marty was here I'd kiss em'! In a non-gay way mind you. No offense to you lesbians.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...as long as our balls do not touch, it's not gay.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I told you it would be worth the wait. That JMP is special.


----------



## solarburn

It is really special. I walk around at work with this crazy ass smile on my face and my coworkers are looking at me like WTF Joe...

I can't wait to play it each day and sometimes I just turn it on for a few seconds playing a few notes or a couple of chords just to infuse that stupid smile back on my face then go on my way.

You really made my year Marty! The last year has been a tight one and this to start out a new year puts some long lost excitement back in my day. Its good to have a thrill again. Something of my own.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I tried for quite a while to find a matched quad of Fat Boy 6CA7's for that amp. I always wonder how it would sound with Sylvania's in there. However, I think the EH's are close as far as all the testing I did.

The good part is that the preamp tubes should last you for a good long time.

I never punched active pickups through the front end. I'm not a big fan of actives. I would have liked to had a DiMarzio Super Distortion hitting that amp. I have a feeling that would be a great tone.

I'm glad that it has put a lasting smile on your face. We all need to smile more.


----------



## RiverRatt

gameshound said:


> hey
> 
> are you open to trades on this?
> P.m and let me know
> 
> Gameshound





Lowlife said:


> Could be interested, but the postage to Europe would kill me



Take it over to the Classifieds thread. We'll talk deals over there.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well, I tried for quite a while to find a matched quad of Fat Boy 6CA7's for that amp. I always wonder how it would sound with Sylvania's in there. However, I think the EH's are close as far as all the testing I did.
> 
> The good part is that the preamp tubes should last you for a good long time.
> 
> I never punched active pickups through the front end. I'm not a big fan of actives. I would have liked to had a DiMarzio Super Distortion hitting that amp. I have a feeling that would be a great tone.
> 
> I'm glad that it has put a lasting smile on your face. We all need to smile more.



I like the EH 6CA7's and I think a good call with this amp. I've never experienced the Sylvanias. I don't even feel like rolling tubes it sounds just fine the way it is.

Well I'm not a fan of EMG's either. I bought that guitar with the plan of putting in the SD's. The EMG's thru my other amps were what I expected. A bit dull and the EQ curve not to my liking.

Going thru the JMP surprised the shit out of me. They sound good and are even giving some dynamics. Its got to be the mids of the pups mixing with the mids and low end of the amp. It jives. 

I'm still gonna get SD's cause I like the dynamic response of passives better but I'm having fun with this until I get them.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a body somewhere with a H-S-S EMG set in it. It was a basswood strat body. Every time I fired it up I wanted to play "Long Time" by BLS.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## RiverRatt

If anybody's out there, I got to go behind the counter at the local mom & pop store and visit the workbench. Seriously, there were parts there that hadn't been moved in 45 years. I found an RCA 7025 and a GE 12AX7 in a tray with a bunch of old connectors and various parts. I had to move a pile of wires before I saw them. $5 each. I found a little magnet in a parts bin that looked like a slug magnet out of a humbucker but had "demagnetizer" printed on it. I can't remember if it was a Duncan or Dimarzio part. I could spend all day in a store like that going through bins of parts. What sucks is that I worked in one of those shops off and on for about 15 years and it was full of shit - an RCA tube caddy full of octal power tubes and preamp tubes, a junk drawer with tubes and Fender pilot lamp jewels in it, there was a drawer with nothing but ABR-1 parts and a lot of those 1960's nylon saddles. There was a Fender Field Guide from the early 1970's that had every schematic and diagram Fender had accumulated, a cabinet full of Fender amp covers, a box of dead Tube Screamers that Ibanez didn't want back. I could go on and on. I don't deserve to live with walking out on all that stuff. If I were a little dishonest I could have made some serious coin. I even told the old bastard I worked for when I took in a 1968 Gibson ES-335DOT tobaccoburst on trade for a $175 Peavey bass. He was pissed off because I didn't get any cash! If I had any sense, I could have put that Peavey bass on my store account and he'd have never known. Dammit.


----------



## solarburn

Someone die?

Oh...the thread.


----------



## solarburn

Wish I had a mom and pops close by to go to. Course my schedule is ass backwards but it would be nice to have one close.

I've been busy play'n the shit out of my new amp. I just ordered a Carbon Copy Delay for the loop and should get that tomorrow. I'm hav'n alot of fun. Can't say the same for the neighbors. Haven't seen any pitchforks or torches outside the window yet...


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Someone die?
> 
> Oh...the thread.



Yeah, a little sarcasm.. sorry. When you're the only one posting it gets lonely.

Your neighbors should bow down outside your door and shower you with gifts for having a JMP in their midst.

Typical scene from Joe's neighborhood:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLJCOjOT8lk]CHEECH AND CHONG- CHONG CRANKS GUITAR *HQ* - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dead! Dead! Dead!

Ain't it a shame?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not ready to give up just yet. I can't follow the facebook stuff. It's more work than a real job to keep up with all that shit. I'm trying to get the other forum moving but I can't seem to get in a thread that's going anywhere.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, a little sarcasm.. sorry. When you're the only one posting it gets lonely.
> 
> Your neighbors should bow down outside your door and shower you with gifts for having a JMP in their midst.
> 
> Typical scene from Joe's neighborhood:
> 
> CHEECH AND CHONG- CHONG CRANKS GUITAR *HQ* - YouTube




Hahahaha!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> If anybody's out there, I got to go behind the counter at the local mom & pop store and visit the workbench.


 
Good story. Wish I could find a place to rummage. It is nice that they let you look around.


----------



## Lowlife

I gather these mom and pops stores are some sort of Mekka for bits and pieces collectors. I'd go nuts in one of those, and then my missus would kill me...but I'd enjoy it while it lasted.

Luckily, perhaps, they dont have those in Denmark, there are sellers of old junk, but the ones I have visited never really had anything for me.


----------



## Lowlife

Oi Marty this is for you, how to make your own tubes (PS. turn off the sound it gets annoying):

Fabrication d'une lampe triode - Vidéo Dailymotion


----------



## solarburn

Marty...here is "our" amp with the EC1000 plugged in sport'n the EMG's. Mess'n about with guitar volume. Enjoy the wall. Found out the cam was too high afterwards. Oh well. Picture a chick pole dancing on it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKmfnvD1MeQ]VID00179.mp4 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lots of "panty dropping" tone there for sure. 

One bad ass JMP.

A player's JMP.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Lots of "panty dropping" tone there for sure.
> 
> One bad ass JMP.
> 
> A player's JMP.



Its just an honor to play a Marshall of this caliber.


----------



## tresmarshallz

I know what you mean Joe about the perma grin, a good old modded Marshall will do that to ya. I get one of those a lot too, it is cool that one of my toughest choices of the day is deciding which amp I want to go into, the 800 or JMP, life is good.


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> I know what you mean Joe about the perma grin, a good old modded Marshall will do that to ya. I get one of those a lot too, it is cool that one of my toughest choices of the day is deciding which amp I want to go into, the 800 or JMP, life is good.



That is a tough choice Drew.LOL

If I can get one more Marshall it would be the 59' SL. Course I wouldn't kick an 800 out of bed either. I almost bought the new YJM 100. $2500 though when I could get my JMP for way less and have money left over for my girls. They appreciated it and I know I'm happy as can be with the JMP.

Maybe I'll get lucky again and find a nice SL down the road for a great price. Until then I will peel paint and drop panties(I wish!)with the JMP!


----------



## sccloser

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty...here is "our" amp with the EC1000 plugged in sport'n the EMG's. Mess'n about with guitar volume. Enjoy the wall. Found out the cam was too high afterwards. Oh well. Picture a chick pole dancing on it.
> 
> VID00179.mp4 - YouTube



Wow! I need to borrow that for some gigs! AWESOME Tone! 

You got a good one...you have my approval!


----------



## solarburn

sccloser said:


> Wow! I need to borrow that for some gigs! AWESOME Tone!
> 
> You got a good one...you have my approval!



Thanks sccloser! It just wants to get it on.

Awesome amp!

Drew and I are lov'n our modded JMP's!


----------



## tresmarshallz

> That is a tough choice Drew.LOL
> 
> If I can get one more Marshall it would be the 59' SL. Course I wouldn't kick an 800 out of bed either. I almost bought the new YJM 100. $2500 though when I could get my JMP for way less and have money left over for my girls. They appreciated it and I know I'm happy as can be with the JMP.
> 
> Maybe I'll get lucky again and find a nice SL down the road for a great price. Until then I will peel paint and drop panties(I wish!)with the JMP!



I have two young girls too so I have to curtail my amp expenditures, and stop buying them now becuase I have four and can't justify any more. I am glad you got the JMP and got to experience that kind of vintage tone, that should tide you over until one fine day when you get the oportunity to get a SuperLead, I actually thought that your version of four-holer JMP was a superlead?..


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> I have two young girls too so I have to curtail my amp expenditures, and stop buying them now becuase I have four and can't justify any more. I am glad you got the JMP and got to experience that kind of vintage tone, that should tide you over until one fine day when you get the oportunity to get a SuperLead, I actually thought that your version of four-holer JMP was a superlead?..



Yeah having the effects loop in front making it a 4 holer is deceiving. It will throw alot of peeps including me.


----------



## tresmarshallz

ahh, my bad, with that beautiful older style headbox and four holes I though it was a non master volume JMP.

Sneaky, it has an fx loop in front?


----------



## solarburn

drdowell said:


> ahh, my bad, with that beautiful older style headbox and four holes I though it was a non master volume JMP.
> 
> Sneaky, it has an fx loop in front?



Yep. Its a Steve Miller loop. Bottom 2 horizontal inputs. Send and return. Just got done using it for the first time too. I got my Carbon Copy delay an hour ago. I have to say the CC is a bit on the dark side color wise. Not sure I like that but its early yet. 

I can bypass the loop too via a toggle switch on the back of the amp. Also there is a + 4/-10 toggle switch and a level pot for the loop. I got to tell you the straight tone is what I prefer right now. No effects.


----------



## RiverRatt

I ran across a box of tubes at the flea market today. I got a couple of 6V6GT's and a Mullard EL84 for my Class 5. There were a few oddball tubes I picked up because they looked like B9A tubes with the center tap on pin 9. Turns out I ended up with basically a 12AU7 (5963) and a tube with slightly more gain than a 12AU7 (6211). There were a few more that looked promising but the guy wanted to sell me the box of 131 tubes (counting the projector lamps) for $2 each or $200 if I bought the whole box. I got about $10 worth and left him with the rest. 

He had a lot of military test equipment he wanted to sell me (even offered to sell it on credit!), but it was a bunch of weird milliamp meters and power supplies. I bought a Fluke rackmount DMM for $20. I don't even know if it works or not, but it's damned cool looking. There was some output meters that were also kinda cool. IIRC it would measure watts and decibels. There was an old O-scope. I think he thought he had $1,000 worth of stuff but it was mostly a bunch of junk. He had the control panel from a M1A1 Abrams tank. Goofy stuff but fun to dig through.

The payoff:


----------



## johnfv

Can't wait to hear a report on how that Mullard sounds in the Class 5!


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, it's hard to say. I didn't notice that much of a difference - I was already using a 6BQ5 that was labeled Motorola USA but it didn't look like any US tubes I've seen and it didn't have seams like a Mullard or other Philips tube. The tone is great, but I don't know that the Mullard made that much difference. I've always said that those little Class A EL84 amps sound about the same no matter what power tube you're running. There's maybe a little more compression at volume and a nice smooth breakup but it's kinda muddy on the low power setting.


----------



## RiverRatt

That Class 5 is a Strat player's amp. I'm surprised you haven't snagged one yet Joe.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That Class 5 is a Strat player's amp. I'm surprised you haven't snagged one yet Joe.



Well I played the shit out of one at the music shop one day not too long ago. It got too farty for me above 12pm although I did find some nice low gain tones on it with the volume at noon and under. They let me unleash it there. Surprised me cause it got pretty loud. Was a small store.

I was using a EPI LP though so I bet a Strat with SC's would be great with it.

I'd rather have the JTM 1 watter but I can't spend the coin on it. It does have the tone I love though. Really sounds good. Price is too much for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

The thing I like about the Class 5 is how well it blends with other amps. I can use it with the VM or the Tweaker/2x12 and it sounds huge. Some tight Boss distortion, a light touch of stereo chorus and you're in Rush territory. I can see how it might not be for everybody, but it works really well for me. I had mine cranked up to about 3/4 volume today and with the Strat it sounded awesome. It's pretty much the strat tone I've been looking for ever since I picked one up. Sometimes I use the TS9 and Boss GE-7. It's a more bluesy, smoky tone than the Boss distortion. The dynamics with a strat are pretty nice, too.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The thing I like about the Class 5 is how well it blends with other amps. I can use it with the VM or the Tweaker/2x12 and it sounds huge. Some tight Boss distortion, a light touch of stereo chorus and you're in Rush territory. I can see how it might not be for everybody, but it works really well for me. I had mine cranked up to about 3/4 volume today and with the Strat it sounded awesome. It's pretty much the strat tone I've been looking for ever since I picked one up. Sometimes I use the TS9 and Boss GE-7. It's a more bluesy, smoky tone than the Boss distortion. The dynamics with a strat are pretty nice, too.



From what I've read boosting tightens that loose end up nicely. Next time I'm at that store I'll plug in a strat. Like I said I got some tones I liked out of it.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Alan, I finally got a minute to mess around with the preamp tubes you sent me. I threw the Telefunken in V1 of my Class 5. NIce! I just messed around with it for a while, but I like it alot. I went ahead and threw the Matsushita in V1 of my other C5, but I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Tomorrow.
Anyway, thanks again for the cool tubes! I'm gonna have fun trying them out in these C5s!


----------



## johnfv

solarburnDSL50 said:


> ...It got too farty for me above 12pm...


Agreed, it can get flatulent pretty easy. Alan is right about it being a great Strat amp, I like it best with relatively low output single coils.


----------



## solarburn

Shit doods...! I had to dig this thread up and resurrect it!

Guess what happened? My beloved JMP started to lose its balls and became limp. It even cut off/on a couple of times. I'm like noooooooooooo! Not this amp! Not this Marshall! I may have actually cried a moment or 2...but don't tell anybody! I mean its been a blissful 2 weeks with it. WTF! My heart sank...remember my DSL50 took a shit on me and short of a new board no tech was able to rectify. It sits. I power it up here and there.

Well I usually start with tubes and the preamp is where I go first. I had already watched the power tubes(in the dark)to make sure no red plating was happening. It has 3 preamp tubes.

V1-Changed it first. Put in my favorite Lorenz 12AX7. Tone changed a bit but nothing changed overall as far as its balls coming back. Still lethargic.

V2-Pulled the Raytheon BP(one of my favs)and put in an RFT 12AX7. Again the tone changed. Swear it got more Marshally with a bit more higher mids. Still lethargic though. Starting to get anxious as I only have one more slot before more involved trouble shooting begins.

PI/V3-Pulled the ball busting(tested strong)Mullard out. Fingered a few NOS 12AX7's(in a box tee hee)before plucking up a BEL 12AX7. Ripped her panties(box) off and popped it in. I had to push a bit cause this slot is tight. Anyways...fired up my beloved and played Fairies Where boots/Jack The Stripper(Fucking love me some Sabbs)and bango! The warm round thump of goodness was back. No more thin quack of unmusical crap it had turned into. Whew!

The culprit at this time...turned out to be the Mullard in the PI slot. A moment of silence please for a vintage Marshall loving ANOS 12AX7 ending its long life.

So right now my new preamp tube line up is:

V1-Lorenz 12AX7
V2-RFT 12AX7
PI-BEL 12AX7

Its back in Black!(with gold piping)


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Whew! Glad to hear all is well. That would have been heart breaking indeed!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> Whew! Glad to hear all is well. That would have been heart breaking indeed!



I was beginning to think I'm jinxed with my Marshall track record. Course that 900 I had a few years back was my fault. Lack of maintenance.

The DSL sounded good for a short time. Don't know what's up with it other than its limp too yet all seems to check out. 3 different techs couldn't sort it out.

That's why this caused me to feel real bad right off although you always have to expect to deal with stuff owning a tube amp. I had to plod along hoping for the best and fearing another Marshall that won't play right for me.:Ohno:

Right now its 

Every time I fire it up though its !


----------



## joshuaaewallen

It's all worth it though when ya crank it up and that glorious tube driven Marshall sound hits ya smack in the face!


----------



## solarburn

joshuaaewallen said:


> It's all worth it though when ya crank it up and that glorious tube driven Marshall sound hits ya smack in the face!



Yes...it is.


----------



## tresmarshallz

Man, I'm glad you got that sorted, that would be tough to take having the JMP go down. That is cool you have an rft in V2. I have an RFT in V1 and V2 of my jcm800 and they sound wicked.

Sorry to hear you've had problems with the marshalls and dependability. I've had all of my older ones go south at least once, but once they have been gone through and maintaned then they last forever!

I wonder if putting a less costly but durable tube in the PI slot would be better? Those are higher voltages there right? I usually put my prized tubes in V1 and 2 then a durable but cheap one in V3. Butt than again I know jack squat about preamp tubes, so maybe I am shooting myself in the foot and not getting as good a tone with a non-NOS tube in V3? Does a V3 tube contribute to tone at all on a JMP?


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I can put in a different one now that I know what's up. Usually I use an LPS there cause it does so well. Only Sovtec 12AX7 I like that works well but just in the PI slot. You can get some tone/feel change in the PI but I usually consider it a utility slot and not a tone slot. I'll throw in a solid 12AX7 there and save my good toobs for the other slots.


----------



## RiverRatt

Glad you got it figured out dude. I know the feeling well. I've had just the opposite experience with tube amps. I've hit a few rough spots, but with a few questions to the tech gods here (or there) I've been able to repair all the problems I've run into myself. 

I'm having a hard time with indicator lamps on Marshalls but I can live with that. Gotta get that Class 5 fixed... I thought I turned everything off last night, but I walked past the guitar this morning while I was getting ready for work and ran a finger across the strings like I do every time I walk past a guitar, except this time, it was amplified! That's pretty amazing to go off and leave a Strat on the stand plugged into a Marshall all night and not be awakened at some point by nuclear feedback.

How come it is that every time I need a part from Marshall, I get the "it's on backorder" line. One of the regional guys answered my email and said that he can't advise a customer to repair their own amp, it must be taken to a service center, blah blah blah. He sent me three shops I might try. I pointed out to him that the nearest store was a 3 hour drive from here. He emailed me back and said he was shipping the part to me. Great! Then 3 days later I get the old backordered email from the distribution center. I'm wondering if I can just use the old style square Marshall 6 volt lamp and be done with it.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey tube hounds!

looks like this beloved thread is suffering a bit (much like the 6100 thread) do to people leaving town.

I'm still here! 

Lost a dear friend last night! I powered up the new Blackstar HT-5 and no dice! spun her around to find my trusty Amprex looking a bit under the weather.






Funny thing is, it was working fine last time I used it, and it has not left my house. I know this was a physical fracture, but I cant figure out how it happened?


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it's stress on the tube while the glass is heating or cooling, like a bent pin or the tube isn't seated. I also think that ceramic sockets are at least 10x more likely to do that to a tube. Hell, we've got a ceramic light socket in our garage that eats a light bulb a month. I like the micalex sockets.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey tube hounds!
> 
> looks like this beloved thread is suffering a bit (much like the 6100 thread) do to people leaving town.
> 
> I'm still here!
> 
> Lost a dear friend last night! I powered up the new Blackstar HT-5 and no dice! spun her around to find my trusty Amprex looking a bit under the weather.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny thing is, it was working fine last time I used it, and it has not left my house. I know this was a physical fracture, but I cant figure out how it happened?



Sure gave up the ghost didn't it...


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Sure gave up the ghost didn't it...



Yeah, I cant figure out what happened? The last time I played it everything was fine. Power it down, wait a week and BAM it cracks in half? I dont get it? 

Hey Joe, can I borrow that JMP???  You got me lusting after that tone!


----------



## RiverRatt

It looks a little like a Tesla/RFT ECC83. If it's an RFT, they are the most notoriously fragile tube in the world.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> Yeah, I cant figure out what happened? The last time I played it everything was fine. Power it down, wait a week and BAM it cracks in half? I dont get it?
> 
> Hey Joe, can I borrow that JMP???  You got me lusting after that tone!



Come get some JMP Scott hahaha!

I've never had a tube go quite like that. Must have been some heavy play'n man...big ole' power chord sheered it in two.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> It looks a little like a Tesla/RFT ECC83. If it's an RFT, they are the most notoriously fragile tube in the world.



Hey Alan,

Good to see you! 

I thought it was an Amprex (you actually gave me the info way back when ). It's a Hammond organ pull (made in Holland) with a 67 42 code.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Come get some JMP Scott hahaha!
> 
> I've never had a tube go quite like that. Must have been some heavy play'n man...big ole' power chord sheered it in two.



I was driving the hell out of it! But there is no way that Metallica cover I was playing blew the tube apart!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> Hey Alan,
> 
> Good to see you!
> 
> I thought it was an Amprex (you actually gave me the info way back when ). It's a Hammond organ pull (made in Holland) with a 67 42 code.



Hey, I've been full of shit before. Ain't nothin' new. The plates look awfully short in the photo. Maybe I'm just not seeing it well, but it looks like they are the right size for an RFT.


----------



## solarburn

Marshall Mann said:


> I was driving the hell out of it! But there is no way that Metallica cover I was playing blew the tube apart!



I dunno...apparently you're gonna need some thicker glass Bro!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I've been full of shit before. Ain't nothin' new. The plates look awfully short in the photo. Maybe I'm just not seeing it well, but it looks like they are the right size for an RFT.



What?!

RFT's rule man! Xcept when they crack at the base.

I'm still on the good side of them...so far I'm the only crack in my collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

By 1967 everybody and anybody were trading tubes around so much that nobody knew what was what. Most of the time the "Made In" stamp is more of an indicator as to which company sold the tube, not which company actually made it.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What?!
> 
> RFT's rule man! Xcept when they crack at the base.
> 
> I'm still on the good side of them...so far I'm the only crack in my collection.



I could be mean and go take a picture of the two RFT's on my computer desk in the music room that turned dead white...


----------



## solarburn

No shit. I depend on you & Marty to tell me whats what. And Tubemonger. Otherwise I haven't a clue...


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I could be mean and go take a picture of the two RFT's on my computer desk in the music room that turned dead white...



No need. I remember you tell'n me about them. Hamfist!


----------



## RiverRatt

They were probably just pissed off that they were having to run in a Crate Vintage Club.


----------



## solarburn

Well no wonder. How could you? 

They make love to the Marshall's. Slide right in.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Crate VC amps weren't bad. They sort of morphed into the Palomino series a few years later. I used mine out a couple of times and it can hold its own. I like my Class 5 better though!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I've been full of shit before. Ain't nothin' new. The plates look awfully short in the photo. Maybe I'm just not seeing it well, but it looks like they are the right size for an RFT.



You have never been full of shit in my experience Alan!

Note that the glass is completely separated and is sitting about 1/16" above the base making the plates look short. Also, the pates are not offset like an RFT.


----------



## Marshall Mann

solarburnDSL50 said:


> No need. I remember you tell'n me about them. Hamfist!



Hamfist! ROLF!


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Mann said:


> You have never been full of shit in my experience Alan!
> 
> Note that the glass is completely separated and is sitting about 1/16" above the base making the plates look short. Also, the pates are not offset like an RFT.



Then you haven't been paying attention!

Yeah, I was going by the short-looking plates. I couldn't really get a good look at the innards.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> No need. I remember you tell'n me about them. Hamfist!



Hey, I'm going to tell daddy that you called me a name.


----------



## Marshall Mann

Here it the pic that originally posted for you to examine,






What do you think???


----------



## RiverRatt

It definitely looks more like an Amperex from that angle. It's a shame that it broke no matter what it is.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> It definitely looks more like an Amperex from that angle. It's a shame that it broke no matter what it is.



Thanks Alan,

Yea, I was pretty miffed. Once they're gone, they're gone for ever.


----------



## RiverRatt

You'll find another prize tube and it'll all be beer and skittles again. I just did a tube check on my Vintage Modern and it had a Tungsram in V1, a Matsushita long plate in V2, a Raytheon black plate in V3 and an Amperex (?!?!) in V4. I put the Raytheon in V2, a Sylvania in V3, and a Chinese tube in V4. I'm still waiting for a chance to go fire it up.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> You'll find another prize tube and it'll all be beer and skittles again. I just did a tube check on my Vintage Modern and it had a Tungsram in V1, a Matsushita long plate in V2, a Raytheon black plate in V3 and an Amperex (?!?!) in V4. I put the Raytheon in V2, a Sylvania in V3, and a Chinese tube in V4. I'm still waiting for a chance to go fire it up.



I'm curious how that lineup will sound. Seems like a number of nice tubes to line up with a Chinese tube at the end of the chain... Ya do that much mate?


----------



## RiverRatt

The Chinese tubes are usually pretty high gain and I like that in a PI. I've ran them in V4 before I got the Vintage Modern. I know about what they'll add to the tone. I could run a Telefunken or Mullard (or Amperex) in V4 and IMO it's the gain that matters in that spot, not the vintage.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Cool. I guess that just never occurred to me to try a Chinese tube there. I fully agree about the gain though. So far my fav in V4 is a good stout high gain RCA.

...  Any recommendations on a good one to try in that slot? (for a guy who doesn't have a tester)


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, I'm going to tell daddy that you called me a name.



Hahaha!

I just got here for today. Late again. 

I changed my line up in the JMP back to the Dario in V1 and the BP in V2. Like it much better. Seems to have more authority or a fuller saturation. Still need to change the PI to something else. Don't want to use my BEL up in that slot.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> The Chinese tubes are usually pretty high gain and I like that in a PI. I've ran them in V4 before I got the Vintage Modern. I know about what they'll add to the tone. I could run a Telefunken or Mullard (or Amperex) in V4 and IMO it's the gain that matters in that spot, not the vintage.



I'm curious too Alan. 

I have not found a Chinese tube I like in the PI spot (although admittedly I am not a fan of many Chinese tubes in general), mostly due to the lack of bottom end they exhibit. I have a couple of high gain lopsided Tele's that I'm really happy with for PI's in the 6100 and the Mesa right now. 

Lets hear some clips!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll try to A/B the Chinese tube with several NOS and see what happens. I've never done that with a PI tube. I'll have to see how the evening works out. I'm tired. I had a mix-up with some mislabeled meds around 2 weeks ago and I had some heart problems. I thought I was taking a strong blood pressure medicine that also slows and regulates your heart rate when I was actually taking an antacid. The blood pressure medicine is one of those that if you abruptly stop taking it, it can cause all kinds of problems. I still don't feel 100%. I've got an appt. tomorrow to see what's going on.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sheesh Alan! Ya gotta take care of yerself. We like ya around here mate!


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> I'll try to A/B the Chinese tube with several NOS and see what happens. I've never done that with a PI tube. I'll have to see how the evening works out. I'm tired. I had a mix-up with some mislabeled meds around 2 weeks ago and I had some heart problems. I thought I was taking a strong blood pressure medicine that also slows and regulates your heart rate when I was actually taking an antacid. The blood pressure medicine is one of those that if you abruptly stop taking it, it can cause all kinds of problems. I still don't feel 100%. I've got an appt. tomorrow to see what's going on.



Shit! Sorry Alan!

I know that if I forget my blood pressure meds I get all messed up and feel like shit. It can take lmost a week before I feel "normal" again.

Please take care man! Like Joshuah said, we need you around! 

Hope you are feeling better soon!


----------



## RiverRatt

It seems like I've had a lot of incidents like that the last few years. Maybe my body is trying to tell me something? Like quit drinking and smoking and get in shape. No, wait. That's my wife telling me that.


----------



## Marshall Mann

RiverRatt said:


> It seems like I've had a lot of incidents like that the last few years. Maybe my body is trying to tell me something? Like quit drinking and smoking and get in shape. No, wait. That's my wife telling me that.



I can sympathize! 

And if your wife is anything like mine, she has that look that kills while she is telling you!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> It seems like I've had a lot of incidents like that the last few years. Maybe my body is trying to tell me something? Like quit drinking and smoking and get in shape. No, wait. That's my wife telling me that.



  

Ha!


----------



## Marshall Mann

Man, I have an old beet to shit 900 in for a tune up. It has SED 6L6's in it. I just got through testing them and almost every one of them pegged the meter! 120% right out of the gate! I had to use one of my test tubes to make sure the 700 wasnt going haywire.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Never had a 6L6 powered Marshall. Pretty sweet ride?


----------



## RiverRatt

I tried 6L6GC's in my Vintage Modern. The biased right up. I didn't like them as much as the KT66's. Not bad, but it seemed to lose a little of its edge.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Of course my TSL is an EL34 amp... Currently housing EL34L's.


----------



## thrawn86

Hey, what up Josh?

And now a word from our sponsor:

NOS Tubes.....the best an Amp can get.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

thrawn86 said:


> Hey, what up Josh?
> 
> And now a word from our sponsor:
> 
> NOS Tubes.....the best an Amp can get.



Woah! And the man himself chimes in!


... Does anybody else think it would be totally kickin' if the Marshall Forum had a Google Android app?


----------



## Marshall Mann

joshuaaewallen said:


> Never had a 6L6 powered Marshall. Pretty sweet ride?



Well, the 900 is a customers, not mine. And frankly, I have never heard a thinner sounding amp in my life!  But I may be a bit biased (I have never cared for the 900's). I have a feeling that is sorely in need of new caps. It still has the stock LCR blue cans in it and they are bulging and flanging pretty bad.











My 6100 is a 5881 / 6L6 head. I am with Alan on this one, I have Gold Lion KT-66's in it and I love it. I love me a goot EL-34 / 6CA7 head as well though.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Maybe my body is trying to tell me something? Like quit drinking and smoking and get in shape. No, wait. That's my wife telling me that.



Pffft, mine says the same thing. What do THEY know?
Sure I may live longer, feel a lot better doing it and save a ton of money but other than that, where's the benefit?

I hope you're doing better soon man.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

brp said:


> Pffft, mine says the same thing. What do THEY know?
> Sure I may live longer, feel a lot better doing it and save a ton of money but other than that, where's the benefit?
> 
> I hope you're doing better soon man.



Amen!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I think I'm past it now. The doc wasn't very concerned since I'm doing better. She said I possibly had a mini stroke and a condition called a Transient Ischaemic Attack. I feel better today. It was scary stuff for awhile though. It would be a fairly expensive test to see if I actually had a stroke and there wouldn't be anything she could do for it if I did.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Transient Ischaemic Attack.



There's a great song title for you there.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I think I'm past it now. The doc wasn't very concerned since I'm doing better. She said I possibly had a mini stroke and a condition called a Transient Ischaemic Attack. I feel better today. It was scary stuff for awhile though. It would be a fairly expensive test to see if I actually had a stroke and there wouldn't be anything she could do for it if I did.



Holy Hell Batman! Shit was serious! Take care Bruther we need you around here. Damn.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope you get to feeling better, Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks all, I am feeling lots better. I'm still a little down in the evenings. The worst part of it is the cognitive part. My daughter was making fun of me when all this was happening. She was calling me "mister-can't-remember-his-name". I think they thought I was self medicating. It was like trying to think through a fog. I would start a sentence and forget what I was talking about in the middle of it. I couldn't remember shit. I was talking to a guy about tubes and couldn't remember the number of the American version of the EL84. Now _that's_ scary.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

I bought 20 of these NOS Mullard pre's about 10 years ago. I was told these
were from the 60's. Can any of you tube pros tell me if this is true. All I know is that these tubes sound soooooo freakin good. The guy told me that these were the most robust tubes he ever had, that they measured very high on the meter. Anyone know anything about these tubes?


----------



## mickeydg5

*JUBI*
You would have to give us the codes off the lower end of the glass to figure a factory and date.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, what he said. I had a Mullard CV4004 from the 1970's that looked like that. I'll bet yours are 1970's I63s.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

I63
b8j3
I was looking up some info and it looks like the I63's were also made in the 60's
I dont know for sure though, thats why I ask you pros.


----------



## mickeydg5

I63 = 12AX7 type, batch 3
b8j3 = Mullard Blackburn, 1968, October, week 3 (or is that 1978, is the M shield a 70's thing?)

Man, nice tubes.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

great, then the guy was honest about the sale. really appreciate the info.
thank you very much


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

would you consider these tubes to be good for the PI slot?
I have these loaded in all the pre and PI slots and it sounds fantastic
so I'm guessing ok.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt had the 70's thing right on those tubes. So they are 1978's.
I pulled out a Mullard data book from 1968 and it still hadthe old style big Mullard shield on the cover.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

Well then I was lied too, imagine that 
well regardless, they still sound fantastic.
I thought Mullard went out of business in the mid 70's ?


----------



## mickeydg5

Well those are great tubes. Got to smile about it.
I do not know exactly when the Blackburn factory shut down. Mullard and it's feeder factories were still making tubes into the 1980's.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

thanks, they do sound wonderfull and I think I have enough to last me the rest of my life, that is if I dont buy anymore amps  these are some very robust tubes and last a very long time.


mickeydg5 said:


> Well those are great tubes. Got to smile about it.
> I do not know exactly when the Blackburn factory shut down. Mullard and it's feeder factories were still making tubes into the 1980's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just to add-IEC bought the rights to distribute Mullards in the late 60's and 70's. I find it odd that these tubes (if 1978) do not have the IEC brand on them. Makes me wonder, but Mullard has done a lot of things that make me wonder (such as Ei tubes marked as Mullard).

Also, I love Mullards in the PI slot. I sold Joe my JMP 2203 and it had an I63 in the PI.

Usually, people tend to save their valuable tubes for the gain stages, but if you got plenty, then yes, use all the good tubes as possible in your amp.


----------



## MM54

I had a 1962 I61 Mullard, it was tasty. Then it exploded in my amp and became the specimen for dissection...

Only have a couple I63's these days


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a 1958 Mullard with an mC code instead of I6. Long plates rule!


----------



## mickeydg5

meanie


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, but I don't have any I63's left at all. I've got a Telefunken or two, the Mullard, an Amperex, a few Ei, a Tungsram, and a few Matsushita short and long plates. There are a few others but these are my tone tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

So what do you do with the Mullard long plate? More important, what does it do for you?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's not so much what I like about the tone as that there's nothing _not_ to like about the tone. It's a darker tube than the I63 Mullards, which I like. It's a very warm and thick sounding tube. I can't stand a tube that's all lows and highs. I usually pick tubes that have a very strong midrange and smooth highs. The Telefunkens have really nice highs but their mids aren't nearly as strong as the Mullard's.

I will say that this only applies to Marshalls and Marshall-style preamps. For a Fender amp, it's pretty much a polar opposite.


----------



## mickeydg5

Hey thanks, good to know. Them long plates get up in the price.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

since my Jubilee is already a dark voiced amp these I63's are a perfect match.
like you say they really bring out the mids very nice. in a creamy way.
they are a very powerful sounding tube with great presence.



RiverRatt said:


> It's not so much what I like about the tone as that there's nothing _not_ to like about the tone. It's a darker tube than the I63 Mullards, which I like. It's a very warm and thick sounding tube. I can't stand a tube that's all lows and highs. I usually pick tubes that have a very strong midrange and smooth highs. The Telefunkens have really nice highs but their mids aren't nearly as strong as the Mullard's.
> 
> I will say that this only applies to Marshalls and Marshall-style preamps. For a Fender amp, it's pretty much a polar opposite.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a 1958 Mullard with an mC code instead of I6. Long plates rule!



Just bought an mC1 long plate for peanuts on ebay, popped it in my jcm900 2101, it roars!


----------



## mickeydg5

Another meanie! 
They are more plentiful over there. We are not so lucky.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

mickeydg5 said:


> Hey thanks, good to know. Them long plates get up in the price.





SpiritOfTheAge said:


> Just bought an mC1 long plate for peanuts on ebay, popped it in my jcm900 2101, it roars!



The long plates sound sweet, but don't seem to hold up as well when placed in a combo amp. In a head, no problem, but, in my limited experience, they seem to die faster in combos.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not going to put mine in my Class 5 combo to find out. I'll take your word for it.


----------



## iron broadsword

> The long plates sound sweet, but don't seem to hold up as well when placed in a combo amp. In a head, no problem, but, in my limited experience, they seem to die faster in combos.



So they can't take the heat or what? I'm assuming this has something to do with heat dissipation and tube placement in the combos


----------



## solarburn

Speaker vibration in combos. 

I've had long plate 12AX7's go microphonic on me in V1 of my DSL50. Apparently they don't do well in V1 of high gain circuits either.


----------



## solarburn

Sex Thousand maniac Marshall dudes!



BELCH!


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, I'm actually gaining on you now. I think you were well over 1,000 ahead of me. Congrats!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Way to go Joe.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I'm not going to put mine in my Class 5 combo to find out. I'll take your word for it.





iron broadsword said:


> So they can't take the heat or what? I'm assuming this has something to do with heat dissipation and tube placement in the combos





solarburnDSL50 said:


> Speaker vibration in combos.
> 
> I've had long plate 12AX7's go microphonic on me in V1 of my DSL50.p Apparently they don't do well in V1 of high gain circuits either.



The most likely culprit does seem to be the heavy vibration they are subjected to in combo amps, but... As for the heat, it certainly does seem to wreak havoc on the circuit boards in the amps as it cooks right through them.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think it is not a good idea to hang your tubes and transformers under your chassis and circuits, especially with no forced ventilation. Heads and cabinets is the way to go and separate the heads form the cabinets if possible.

My thoughts anyways.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

mickeydg5 said:


> I think it is dump to hang your tubes and transformers under your chassis and circuits, especially with no forced ventilation. Heads and cabinets is the way to go and separate the heads form the cabinets if possible.
> 
> My thoughts anyways.



Couldn't agree with ya more. Between the heat to circuit board and the long plates I was sending to the graveyard, that's why I yanked the chassis outta my TSL122 combo and elected to invert it and convert it... I now run it in a head w/ 2x12 cab configuration (been like that for over a year and a half now and it is MUCH better)!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the Class 5 is OK for a combo. The O-ring tube retainer seems to keep the tubes quiet. I haven't noticed any microphonics yet and with only one EL84 it doesn't generate a great amount of heat.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'd love to get me a Class 5. I was at Sam Ash in Nashville a couple weeks ago and was really digging the Class 5 I was jamin' on there. Of course I probably drove the employees there nuts 'cause I just couldn't stop with the AC/DC riffs! It was just too right!


----------



## RiverRatt

There was a kid playing Scar Tissue by the RHCP on the floor model when I got mine in Memphis. It's a nice little amp, and a lot louder than you might think. It takes tubes and pedals well, too.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> There was a kid playing Scar Tissue by the RHCP on the floor model when I got mine in Memphis. It's a nice little amp, and a lot louder than you might think. It takes tubes and pedals well, too.



Yeah... I was diggin' it. Very responsive to pick attack, guitar volume, etc.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. Since the indicator burned out on mine, it's been left on with a strat plugged in at least 3 times. I discover it the next night when I pick up the guitar and it's live. Marshall is supposed to be sending me a replacement but I got a backorder notice on it. It's a really quiet amp, though. You can't tell that it's powered up. If I left the strat and Vintage Modern plugged in it would be howling in a few seconds.


----------



## johnfv

I'm playing my C5 head a bunch lately and I fall asleep at night with "...the echoes of the amplifiers ringing in my head...". This little pup is not exactly quiet


----------



## 61rocker

Missing a lot here......spring is coming and work has been hectic....hope you guys are doing well.....I recently got another RCA Blackplate dated I think for '58....Here's a shot of how my rig is looking.....Now I just need a place where I can play it all.....Now I am working on my basics...weaned myself off the RP-12 for live anyway, picked up an ISP Decimator, Crybaby, and a Boss Ultimate Chorus....making a pedalboard myself and I am going to get a DC Brick...more pedals to come...I may go boutique from here out....pricey tho...


----------



## RiverRatt

It would be nice to be able to plot the EQ curve of different tubes using a signal generator so every tube gets the same exact test just to see if what we hear or think we are hearing is backed up by the chart.


----------



## 61rocker

I see your still topping out the pages RR.....is that you with the Celestions on ebay?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, all I've got on eBay is an old Fender 1980 gray bottom flat pole piece pickup. I only paid $5 for the thing, and it's got 12 people watching it. 

I'm jam_66_tn on eBay.


----------



## solarburn

$8000 NOS tube...sold.

Western Electric 252A - Serial 6872


----------



## Lowlife

....but why...what does that tube do? and why is it so expensive


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, for starters it's probably close to 100 years old.


----------



## solarburn

I don't know anything about it other than what's printed on the page its on. Someone bought it... collectible I'm sure. Said someone has moola to burn IMO.LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anything Western Electric is high. It's almost a cult thing. This tube is an old power tube capable of about 8 watts. It is very rare. Probably made around 1925 or so.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a copy of a 1933 Western Electric tube manual. 5 pin tubes were already in use. 4 pins were older.

http://www.the-planet.org/pdf/we.pdf


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Everyone survive the storms throughout the south yesterday and last night?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nothing here in NE Kansas.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Good to hear. I escaped as well, with little more than wind, rain, and a power outtage, but... Some nearby areas got pounded. Heard from Alan? That old coot doin' alright?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I hope the doctors take care of Alan.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hmm... I was hoping to hear something a wee bit better than that... I've got practice tonight, but hopefully he'll check in here. How about everyone else on the forum in Kentucky, Indiana, Tennessee, etc..? All you tube hounds doin' ok?


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

I live in Nebraska and I'm afraid what is happening down south is gonna hit us
in another month. It always seems like it works it's way north as the year goes on.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

JUBILEELOVINFOOL said:


> I live in Nebraska and I'm afraid what is happening down south is gonna hit us
> in another month. It always seems like it works it's way north as the year goes on.



Understand completly. I've been in Minnesota most of my life (some Wisconsin too). I've only been in Tennessee since last June. They do get some crazy storms down here.


----------



## JUBILEELOVINFOOL

I never hear of Minnesota ever getting tornado's.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

JUBILEELOVINFOOL said:


> I never hear of Minnesota ever getting tornado's.



We get 'em. Not usually the real big ones, but often enough to make having a basement to shelter in something of value!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Josh, I dodged the weather just fine. I had some severe chest pains Thursday night and Friday morning. It turned out to be a pulmonary embolism. They found a "moderate" clot so I get to take a weekend vacation. I just saw my doctor a few minutes ago and pending a few tests Monday morning I will probably get to go home Monday evening. She wants to make sure there isn't a tumor or some reason like that for the clot. She also said I could have my guitar in the room, but it's pretty cramped in here. I might get someone to bring me a Strat and a pocket pod or something. If I could find a cable, I could just plug in to the MIC input on this laptop and use Amplitube.


----------



## RiverRatt

.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

joshuaaewallen said:


> Good to hear. I escaped as well, with little more than wind, rain, and a power outtage, but... Some nearby areas got pounded. Heard from Alan? That old coot doin' alright?



A video that a buddy of mine shot of the storm system that passed through yesterday (ya may wanna skip ahead at least 6 minutes... maybe even to around 15:30...):
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6MwyKt0abc&feature=youtube_gdata_player]March 2-3 2012 Storms "Livingston Tennessee" Overton County, Tornado's - YouTube[/ame] 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FugV2Ovyn8[/ame] 



RiverRatt said:


> Hey Josh, I dodged the weather just fine. I had some severe chest pains Thursday night and Friday morning. It turned out to be a pulmonary embolism. They found a "moderate" clot so I get to take a weekend vacation. I just saw my doctor a few minutes ago and pending a few tests Monday morning I will probably get to go home Monday evening. She wants to make sure there isn't a tumor or some reason like that for the clot. She also said I could have my guitar in the room, but it's pretty cramped in here. I might get someone to bring me a Strat and a pocket pod or something. If I could find a cable, I could just plug in to the MIC input on this laptop and use Amplitube.



Hey Alan! Great to hear you are still plugging along ok. Sorry to hear you are stuck in hospital, but it definitely beats being underground! Between the storms and yer non-stop health issues we worry about ya mate! Anyhoo... Hospital or not, keep pluckin' them strings and let music be a healer. Get better soon bro, and don't be a stranger.


----------



## thrawn86

Thinkin' of you, Alan. Take it easy.


----------



## RiverRatt

No other way to do it, bro. How in the hell do people sit around and watch TV all day?


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> ... How in the hell do people sit around and watch TV all day?



No doubt! Boring, Boring, BORING!

So did ya get anyone to bring ya an axe?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, but I got a new laptop with a Radeon HD video card. It'll run some good games. I'm going to put ProTools on it when I get home. Everything's looking good. I should be home tomorrow evening unless something weird happens.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Sheesh Alan... You've gotta be going nuts with boredom mate!


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, I know more than I used to about sasquatch, alien invaders, mining gold, Indian crocodiles, and the top 101 gadgets that changed the world. Plus, they bring me interesting drugs. I'm about loopy tonight.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Well... I guess there is that...


----------



## joshuaaewallen

I'd be going stir crazy bad...


----------



## RiverRatt

Home again! Now, back to Marshalls, guitars and tubes!


----------



## sccloser

Glad that you are OK Alan.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Woo hoo! Rock on mate! Rock on.


----------



## RiverRatt

I feel great. I got home and after getting caught up with everything and everybody, I got my plywood strat finished tonight. Alex (66 Galaxie) did an incredible re-fret on it and now it's got a correct pickguard on it and 3 hot single-coils. It sounds pretty damned good!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Great to hear mate! Whatcha got 'er plugged into?


----------



## solarburn

Great see ya got back home Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

joshuaaewallen said:


> Great to hear mate! Whatcha got 'er plugged into?



Marshalls of course. Vintage Modern and Class 5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad you are back at home. A good loud Marshall will keep your blood flowing.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know about Marshalls right now. I've had a headache all day. I took some Aleve and I think it's beginning to get better. I'm about to go take the Squier apart again before I go make loud noise. I want to put a bridge with some funky old Fender bent steel saddles on it. I'm kicking around the idea of putting a set of more modern tuners on it. Those cheap ones that came on the guitar suck ass. So far I'm happy with those Ironstone pickups - I don't think they are as good as the Texas Specials in my hot rod strat but they aren't bad at all. They aren't as hot as the TS set. They sound killer through the Vintage Modern.


----------



## gameshound

Hey All
Just got in a beautiful cache of I61 Mullards..beauties
Private message me if interested!!
Hope all Is well!!!!

Maybe this thread need "darkfart" to return to get a little life back in it!!!

Gameshound


----------



## RiverRatt

I spotted a Mullard I61 in the wild today. It had a Motorola label and a Blackburn 1963 date code. The guy wouldn't sell it without the hideous console stereo it was in, and he wanted $40 for that. I would have done $20 if the tube was good. I may go down there again and offer him $10 and a shiny new 12AX7 if he'll let me have the Mullard. 

I did find a cool 7025. I don't think I've seen one like this before. It appears to be a G.E. by the stenciled 7025 with the dots underneath, but it's a long-plate tube with one staple on each side of the plates. The plates are more narrow than other G.E. tubes I've had. It also has gold pins and a big horseshoe getter with a foil strip across the open end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've had GE 7025's that looked like that. I may even have a few in inventory.

Do you think GE could have relabeled a Philips tube with their dot matrix?

Foil getters were mostly a Philips design.


----------



## mickeydg5

That looks like a GE made 7025 to me. I have a 12AX7 that looks almost identical. My horseshoe getter has a bar across it. There are no seams at top glass. The 7025's that I notice have the circular hole at front both sides of each plate like that one. I have seen many different plate styles on GE tubes though.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it's a G.E. too. It may be from the 1950's - I think by the 1960's all the G.E. stuff was short plates. Since the 7025 is supposed to be low noise/low microphonics I thought it was strange that it was a long plate tube. It sounds great in V1 of the Vintage Modern! I've always said that I don't like USA tubes in a Marshall, but a good G.E. in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 is a killer combination.

Marty, the first thing I did was check the bottom of the tube... no diamond or anything, no seams on top, but it looks like it has a capital "L" in the circle. It's also got a crack around one of the pins, but it just goes a short distance into the glass. There's still a lot of solid tube between the cracked part and vacuum. The gold pins are a new thing - I don't recall ever having a gold pin G.E. before. It makes me think that this was maybe a 5-star tube originally or at least geared more toward the hi-fi market.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Foil getters were mostly a Philips design.



I wondered about that, too. Also, the stenciled "7025" is a lot smaller than the standard G.E. stencil.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You never can tell when it comes to technology versus unit cost. I think all of the major players shared (stole) technology. After being appraised, this technology was either continued or if not necessary, it was discontinued. If a foil getter only provides a small improvement over a regular getter, it probably was going to be phased out or made in small quantities (for say Hi Fi users).

When the first 12AX7's were produced, they were all long plates. I believe the 7025 came out in 1952 and it was a long plate. However, just like real 2 by 4's were made smaller in dimension, the tube industry made the move to shorter plates. Once this was done, there were no need for 7025's. 

I found this comment online.



> Any tube labeled 12AX7 after the mid 1950's is probably a 7025 anyway, with the improved construction. This includes the many tubes labeled 12AX7/7025, done in hopes of striking a familiar 'name' with old-timers out tube shopping.


----------



## RiverRatt

When did spiral filaments first appear? You can see in the top picture that it's a spiral.


----------



## mickeydg5

I looked at another GE 12AX7 I use for calibration. It has the crimp tungs towards the inside. It also has a D getter with a foil across the end that has two holes in it.

Most GE tubes have codes wiped off and I do not really know how to decifer GE codes anyway. If you guys do, please pass on information.

I have no newer GE 12AX7 tubes, so I looked at a few somewhat newer 12AT7/6201, 12AU7/5814 and 12AY7/6072 tubes. These newer looking tubes have the smaller GE stenciling and usually have a letter at center bottom of tube. The older tubes usually have numbers. Not all, but most, that is what I have noticed.


----------



## RiverRatt

The only thing I know for sure about G.E. is that 188 is the EIA code and there's usually another number with the year and week indicated. Like you said, a lot of the older tubes only have the etched tube number left for identification purposes. I've never read anything that had a definite clue as to what the dots mean.

From what I've gathered from other GE tubes, the long plate tubes didn't make it past the mid-1950's production.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I may only have a few GE tubes that actually still have the inked date codes on them. I stayed up one night to try and decifer the dot matrix but after hours and hours of building theories I came up inconclusive and gave up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Spiral filaments appeared in the RCA 7025 (1952 I believe).


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I found another tube just like the 7025 above. It's a CBS tube with a 1956 date on it. It has the same plates, the same getter, and it had 12AX7 printed on it in fairly tall and thin gray letters. It also had the CBS logo, Made in the USA, and 12AX7 printed on it in red ink. The '56 date code was red also. The only glaring difference is the absence of the cutout that the 7025 has in the plate on either side of the filament. Otherwise they are the same tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Hi guys... How ya'll doin tonight? 

... Here's one for ya, which, although its not a preamp tube, I'm sure someone here will be able to identify...

... A big thanks to whoever can I.D. this EL84:

P1040265 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


----------



## RiverRatt

That a Reflektor 6P14P made in the 12th week of 1990. It's the Russian military equivalent of the EL84. IIRC they are rated at 10,000 hours. It really depends on the amp whether or not you like the tone. They don't break up as early as a regular EL84 and they have much more clean headroom.


----------



## joshuaaewallen




----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> That a Reflektor 6P14P made in the 12th week of 1990. It's the Russian military equivalent of the EL84. IIRC they are rated at 10,000 hours. It really depends on the amp whether or not you like the tone. They don't break up as early as a regular EL84 and they have much more clean headroom.





joshuaaewallen said:


> Thanks Alan! I know the person inquiring about it will be quite happy to have that info! And I appreciate it too!
> 
> So how ya doin' these days bro?



The bloke who's got that tube is apparently running it in an old Vox, I'm not sure which model, but he reportedly is quite pleased with the tone.

Thanks Alan! You rock!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah Josh, the tube owner (Matt) sent me a PM and I sent him the info on this tube.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah Josh, the tube owner (Matt) sent me a PM and I sent him the info on this tube.



Rock on mate!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Hey guys a heads up about someone with lots of 5xNOS Ei labelled up for VHT for the sum of £20 with free postage. Thats £4 per valve delivered, whats not to like? (uk only sorry)

5 off 12 AX7 Valve marked VHT brand new premium quality. PRICE DROP, post freee | eBay

If this link does not work then look for the seller skimegaptera, hope this helps someone.


----------



## iron broadsword

Alright, I need to make a decision. I need 3 new preamp tubes for my JCM900 DR. It'll be my first time trying new 12ax7's in it, and so I don't really know what I want out of it.. I know preamp tubes don't make a big difference in this amp, but I've tried a few different ones I had laying around and I could definitely notice a difference. I'd prefer to to only purchase 3 of these, cause I've spent too much lately already 

So.. I play in church so I need something that gives nice bluesy breakup and also a big beefy rock tone for some punchy power chords. I've always loved the tone of tung-sol's in my AVT150, and of my old tubes I certainly preferred the tung-sol in the JCM900 over the mesa and sovtek... but I'm considering other options. Any ideas? I'm not into NOS stuff cause it's just too darned expensive.


----------



## iron broadsword

Hmm... I say I'm too cheap for NOS tubes and then I find a Raytheon black plate for $12 shipped to me... which is cheaper and quicker than ordering current production locally. So... ok, let's talk NOS as well.

This guy is on ebay and has a good track record. He says it tests
Tested on Hickok 539C. 
Minimum - 4800/4800
Test = 7800/8200

I've no idea if that's any good or not, but I've heard great things about these tubes. What do you guys think?


----------



## RiverRatt

If you can get a Raytheon black plate 12AX7 for $12 from a reputable seller who says it's good, that's a no-brainer. I'd even take a chance with a "no returns" tube for that money. How much is shipping?


----------



## MartyStrat54

As a matter of fact, the Raytheon Black Plate is the number one V1 tube I recommend in the 900DR. I say get the tube. That's a bargain.


----------



## iron broadsword

Shipping was $2, it's on the way!

I'll probably grab a couple tung-sols for the other two slots now.


----------



## iron broadsword

I'd been considering using the tubes in my class 5 since they are brand new just to see if I like those in the JCM900, but I'm still in the honeymoon period with the C5 and I'm afraid to touch it. Sounds too awesome


----------



## Lowlife

I tossed a Telefunken ECC81 in V1 and a Philips miniwatt in V2, the EL84 is a Telefunken as well...my C5 is awesome sounding now.


----------



## iron broadsword

When the tubes in my C5 start going I'll definitely try some other stuff in them, but I just love the tone out of the box. I've been consistently impressed by this little box of rock.


----------



## iron broadsword

Anybody ever see/use these? 2 x 6N2P = 12AX7 = ECC83 USSR tubes. NOS NEW 1980s | eBay

Looks a little sketchy, it's got a different pinout but can be compensated for easily enough I guess. Wonder what they'd sound like.


----------



## iron broadsword

Dang.. did I just buy the wrong type of tube? I said I bought the Raytheon black plate, but noticed it didn't actually say 12ax7 in the listing.. but it looks like every other 12ax7 I've seen.

The description on the listing is this: RAYTHEON brand # 5687 Black Plate tube"

Did a search for 5687 and it seems like it's a dual triode, but I can't find anything saying it is or works as a 12ax7. I'm confused...


----------



## mickeydg5

iron broadsword said:


> Dang.. did I just buy the wrong type of tube? I said I bought the Raytheon black plate, but noticed it didn't actually say 12ax7 in the listing.. but it looks like every other 12ax7 I've seen.
> 
> The description on the listing is this: RAYTHEON brand # 5687 Black Plate tube"
> 
> Did a search for 5687 and it seems like it's a dual triode, but I can't find anything saying it is or works as a 12ax7. I'm confused...


 
That is the wrong tube. It has different pin outs and low amplification factors.


----------



## iron broadsword

Sighage, that's what I thought. I sent a message to the seller to try and fix this before he mails it about 2 hrs ago. Tung-sol's it is.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> That is the wrong tube. It has different pin outs and low amplification factors.



Yeah, I was just looking at that. Similar gain to the 12AU7 but the plate resistance is a lot less.


----------



## MartyStrat54

iron broadsword said:


> Anybody ever see/use these? 2 x 6N2P = 12AX7 = ECC83 USSR tubes. NOS NEW 1980s | eBay
> 
> Looks a little sketchy, it's got a different pinout but can be compensated for easily enough I guess. Wonder what they'd sound like.



Yes. We have discussed these tubes on many occasions. You have to do a little rewiring to get them to work. Once you do this, you can only use this tube. You are stuck with whatever tone the tube has. 

These are the tubes that many will resort to when they can no longer get vintage or NOS tubes.


----------



## iron broadsword

Slapped a couple of new Tung-sol's in V1 and V3 this morning and WOW! I forgot how much I love these. V2 is my old tung-sol which sounds great but I'll pick up another new one anyways to put there, or keep as a spare if I don't hear a change. 

Also, I've determined that I just hate EHx tubes. Every time I use one there's always something nasty in the very middle of the frequency band that I can't dial out with the EQ. Turn up the mids to an appropriate level and it hurts your ears. It was the same problem with my AVT150, so I must just not like that tube. The tung sol's give it a sweet and rich character that I have really fallen in love with since the very first time I used one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I use EH tubes for the PI on occasion. I do not use them in gain stages.


----------



## RiverRatt

iron broadsword said:


> Sighage, that's what I thought. I sent a message to the seller to try and fix this before he mails it about 2 hrs ago. Tung-sol's it is.



Dude, you're not the only one on here who's clicked the Buy It Now button only to realize later that you weren't bidding on what you thought you were. PM me next time with the URL or item number and I'll be glad to check it out for you. Most of the other regulars will help you out, too. I have gotten into a bidding war with some of the guys here but it was just because we didn't know we were both going after the same tube. I can't speak for every member here, but we don't step on other people's deals.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got to tell all of you about my latest tube experience. Those of you who know me are aware that my big tube-buying expeditions are usually full of the weird and supernatural. I run a weekly county newspaper with the help of my business partner and our single full-time employee. (Just to brag, we were chosen as the 2011 Small Business of the Year in our county!). It's a lot of work and we do all of it. I'm the computer geek/publisher, my partner is the reporter/editor. I know it's like being the head chicken plucker, but you have to have titles in this business.

Anyway, Thursday is our day to go out and call on customers, deliver papers to businesses, load coin-op racks, etc., the shit it takes out competitor 15 people to accomplish and we're still kicking their asses. There's this building I've driven past for 3+ years every Thursday. It's practically out in the middle of nowhere, and it has an old Zenith neon sign in the window (unlit). 

Today for some reason, I decided to stop there and see what was going on with the building. I drove up to the house back in behind of the shop and introduced myself the lady who answered the door and told her that we were looking for tubes and related equipment. She said I'd have to talk to her husband and see what he said. I gave him a call and after awhile he said for us to just go through the building and see what we wanted. I didn't find hardly any old tubes, but she said he'd be home at 5 p.m. and I called dude and he said to meet there at 6 pm and he'd show me where the good stuff was.

So, I get there at 5:55 and he hasn't made it home yet. I called him and he said to go down and start picking out stuff and he'd be along in 45 minutes or so. I took my 19 year old son with me and we started going through everything we could find. I found at least 5 tube caddies which were EMPTY. I did find a few cardboard flats of tubes but nothing out of the ordinary. 

When dude showed up, he said we were looking at the wrong place. The wall on the west side of the building had collapsed and the shelf that all the tubes were on were now reverting back to soil. It was more like archaeology than tube scavenging! We moved the shelf out of the way and dug through the remains of a particleboard floor, dirt, and brown recluse spiders and I think we dug out most of the tubes. I just finished going over the first batch and found 3 Amperex Bugle Boy EL84's (rX2), another 6BQ5 or two, maybe 4 Tung-Sol 12BZ7's, and maybe one 12AX7. That's when he told me that his veterinarian had already come in and took the tube tester, O-scope, and a few tubes that he could use repairing radios. Right. Same old song.

Anyway, he was a really nice dude and told us to come get whatever we wanted out of there before he burns the place down in the immediate future. There are electrolytics, resistors, signal caps, circuit boards loaded with all kinds of good components, but there doesn't appear to be much more tube-realated stuff except for a handful of empty caddies.

When we had worked up a good sweat, he told us that his veterinarian was a radio repairman who had picked through the tubes before the wall and tube shelves collapsed. I have an open offer to come back this weekend and sort through some more. 

I got out with a hickok piece of equipment (maybe a signal generator), several of those tube socket adapters that let you take readings off the pins while the tube is operating, a GE 6BQ5, a handful of power tubes of the type that HAM radio people go crazy over, I think 4 or 5 12BZ7's, a LOT of 12AZ7's, a 12AU7's and one possible 12AX7. Not bad for $20 but I don't know if it was worth the work. He said to come back any time this weekend and go through it some more, and he also says he has a couple of outbuildings with more of his father's old tubes in them. I think I've found a way to spend my Saturday.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh, I forgot to mention that 3 of the EL84's that I found are rX2 Amperex Bugle Boy Tubes! I'm going to see if they can out-do my old Mullard EL84 I'm running in the Class 5.


----------



## brp

Jeebus Allan, how do you find these places?! That would be so fun!
You did already mention the Amperex el84's but it's ok to say it again cuz we can tell you're excited.


----------



## RiverRatt

Excited, full of wine, it's all good.


----------



## iron broadsword

RiverRatt said:


> Dude, you're not the only one on here who's clicked the Buy It Now button only to realize later that you weren't bidding on what you thought you were. PM me next time with the URL or item number and I'll be glad to check it out for you. Most of the other regulars will help you out, too. I have gotten into a bidding war with some of the guys here but it was just because we didn't know we were both going after the same tube. I can't speak for every member here, but we don't step on other people's deals.



Thanks, I appreciate that. 

He turned out to be a great guy though and refunded the money without question.


----------



## johnfv

Off topic but I figure this is a place that most people pay attention to. Nice deal on D'Addario EXL110 string 10 pack today @ AMS:
American Musical Supply - Musical Instruments, Guitars, Amplifiers, Drums

I ordered 20 sets


----------



## MM54

If you pick up the resistors/caps/etc let me know 

And as always, I'm jealous of your bizarre discovery


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, I swear to you I have a box of tubes sitting at my office waiting to ship. Some are going to have to be individually wrapped. I owe johnfv a couple of power tubes as well and they are there waiting along with yours. It seems like every time I think of them I don't even have enough money for a pack of smokes. I haven't forgotten about you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I got the magnifying glass and flashlight out and checked out these EL84's I got yesterday. The type code is rX2 and the factory date code is D7J on all three tubes. You can see various remnants of the Bugle Boy logo along with Amperex and MADE IN HOLLAND. I don't know how these happened to be labeled Amperex, but they were made in Hamburg, Germany in October of 1957. The logos and EL84 are almost completely gone but the type and date codes are very legible. 

From what I've read, Hamburg produced the first EL84 tubes EVER. They are supposed to be some of the best sounding EL84's ever made. Time to pay the Class 5 a visit!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Amperex and Miniwatt were both made at the Valvo factory.



> "VALVO was an old and renowned german company. their tubes are of excellent quality, and at least as good as for example Telefunken, Philips, Mullard or Siemens tubes (of course - i'm referring to the originals, only).
> 
> according to my experience VALVOs are often even better than Teles ! in fact, Telefunken had gotten tubes from VALVO since the early 30s, put the diamond-logo on and sold them as "Telefunkens". at those times nobody really cared inspecting a tube very closely to possibly discover its real origin (knowledge of where to look for what wasn't widely spread, either).
> 
> since you're asking,- here's a bit of history: before 1914 the company "C.H.F. Mueller GmbH Hamburg" produced only X-ray tubes (therefore, they were known as "Roentgen-Mueller"). after 1916, probably triggered by the requirements of WW-I, "ordinary" tubes (mainly Xmitting ones) were added to the program.
> 
> in april 1924 Mueller created a daughter-firm called "Radio-Roehren- Fabrik GmbH" or just "RRF GmbH" (meaning radio-tube factory); they took over the tube-production from Mueller.
> 
> in 1926 RRF was renamed to "VALVO". that name was inspired by the latin word "valvae" (something like door wing, to symbolize the flow-control of electrons), plus the english "valve". since then VALVO used their typical logo, a sort of jagged ring with a stylized "VALVO" written inside, which was kept (almost) unchanged for more than 5 decades.
> 
> in 1927 Philips bought C.H.F. Mueller (Mueller had financial problems), and later in 1932 also VALVO (Mullard became a Philips-daughter, too).
> 
> BTW, Philips was founded in 1891 as "Philips & Co" for producing and selling light-bulbs. after significant expansion also internationally they changed to "Philips AG" in 1912. AFAIK their headquarter has been in Eindhoven (holland) ever since, till today.
> 
> VALVO didn't just produce tubes (incl. camera/pencil/Geiger/PM types, & up to 1 MW klystrons), but a whole lot of other stuff like ceramic caps, piezo-elements, ferrites, smaller motors, transformers, deflection-yokes and (b/w + color) picture-tubes, diodes, transistors, loudspeakers, etc.
> 
> it's amusing to see how eagerly people are sometimes pointing out major differences (prices follow accordingly) between tubes e.g. made by VALVO, Mullard, Telefunken, Siemens or Philips. one should be aware of the fact that tubes were frequently exchanged & re-labelled among those and other firms.
> 
> as an aside,- Telefunken started off with the prototype of their very 1st EL 34 (metal-base) in october 1954, which was an exact copy of the VALVO EL 34 (Philips had developed the EL 34 years before). at that time, only some slight changes were done by the Telefunken engineers (e.g. the lower pair of cooling-wings was dropped); later other mods followed."


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I ended up with the three Valvo EL84's, a Sylvania 6BQ5, a GE 6BQ5, and this one which I'm not sure of. RCA maybe? It looks like the Philips plate structure but it's a black plate. It's labeled Philco. Check it out and let me know what you experts think:






I have already filled up the box my Egnater Tweaker came in with tubes, and I have two more caddies and a couple of flats full of stuff that hasn't been gone through yet. I got a few other power tubes and today I found a Sylvania 12AX7 and a Raytheon black plate 12AX7 and both are strong tubes.

I also have probably a few hundred trasistors, IC's and various controls still in the Zenith parts bags. I filled up a large box with capacitors and another with resistors. Unfortunately a lot of the caps are electrolytics - very few bumblebees, damn it. I picked up a few transformers - I got a nice Stancor PC8408 power transformer. The secondaries are 340-0-340, 6.3v and 5v. It looks like it would be a great PT to build a Fender 2x6L6GC amp around. I didn't find much in the way of output transformers.

I'm off to sort through some more of this stuff. I love doing this!


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh, I forgot. In an interesting piece of irony, I found the fourth tube in that set of Valvo EL84's. I uncovered it and it had been stepped on. You could tell from the plates and the getter that it was the same tube. I would have loved to have a quad of those things!


----------



## 61rocker

_Hey Rockers....I have been so busy at work it's sick....with Spring early and the new store in it's second year....it crazy busy....I come home and crash usually...anyway...I picked up this 2007 American Standard Strat today at GC in Memphis...a nod to Buddy for great customer service...._


----------



## solarburn

Hngd!


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> _Hey Rockers....I have been so busy at work it's sick....with Spring early and the new store in it's second year....it crazy busy....I come home and crash usually...anyway...I picked up this 2007 American Standard Strat today at GC in Memphis...a nod to Buddy for great customer service...._



That's a couple of nice looking guitars! How do you like the double-cut? I've always wanted to try one.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> That's a couple of nice looking guitars! How do you like the double-cut? I've always wanted to try one.


 Hey Alan....I love that Double cut....it's got Burstbucker Pros...the fastest neck I've ever owned....nails Page thru the Super Lead.....


----------



## MM54

Alan, you know I'm not in a rush 

Ever find out anything with that Fluke?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's buried under two tons of gear. There's a guy set up over at that same flea market today who has a lot of HAM gear and tubes. I'm about to go check out what he's got.


----------



## MM54

Nice, good luck!


----------



## RiverRatt

Bah, nothing but over-priced HAM gear. The problem with those guys is, if you ask them one intelligent question about tubes (especially sweep tubes), linear amps, antennae, power supplies, etc., they will launch into a 30-minute monologue on everything they know about tubes, receivers, amps, etc... Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it sucks. 

Matt, you asked me about resistors, caps etc. a page or so back... I have no idea how much of anything I have but I did get probably around 20 boxes of Sprague Orange Drops in different values. Most of the resistors are the big wirewound ones. If you want, shoot me some values in both electrolytics and Orange Drops. I have a few silver micas and ceramic disc caps. mmF is the same as pF, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

I tried a handful of 12AX7's I've picked up recently. You win some, you lose some. I had an RCA and a Sylvania that weren't even home when I tried them. The Sylvania was DOA and the RCA was like turning the gain down to about 1. I think I'm going to start breaking the tip off those tubes when they come along. I have a habit of never throwing anything away and I end up finding the same bad tubes a year later and wondering why they don't work.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Alan, and anybody else 
This guy gave me a couple of tubes to try.
He said they are russian made. I dont know skittles from m&ms.

Check them out...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are the Russian military version of an EL84. As long as they are matched, they should sound pretty sweet in the DSL201.


----------



## 66 galaxie

I'm not sure if they are matched. Would it be a bad idea to put them in and try it without going full bore?


----------



## RiverRatt

They really look like they have been ran hot for a long time. Those tubes were spec'd at 10,000 hours though, so they should still have some life left in them. I couldn't make a call on whether or not they will work in the DSL201 though. For them to work optimally and safely, the DSL would need to be re-biased. You might get away with trying them without biasing the amp or you might fry the tubes, your amp, or both. Your friend who works with amps should be able to bias them for you. 

You could learn to bias it yourself. It's not that hard as long as you respect the voltages you'll be working with.

BTW, those Reflektor 6P14P tubes usually have a simple date code. They are right underneath the tube number and the format is WW YY so your tubes were made in 1982 and 1984.


----------



## RiverRatt

To continue the EL84 goodness, I raided that same TV shop from last week and found an Amperex xF3 EL84 with an X7E factory date code in an old TV that I meant to look through last time and forgot about. X is the code for the Philips plant in Sittard, Holland, and it was made in May of 1957. There are a couple of guys on here who can attest to the goodness that is a Sittard EL84. It's really weird how I won't see a particular tube type for months, then all of a sudden they are everywhere.

I took all the big sweep tubes by and let my friend who's into HAM radio dig through them Thursday evening. He pulled out some good stuff and said he's going to come up with some EL84's and 12AX7's to trade me for them. He also has a line on some old EL34's that some of his HAM friends use until their output power starts to drop a little and they throw them out and put in another set. He says they still test at 80% or better. I'm looking forward to checking some of those out.

I'm going to have a blowout sale on single EL84/6BQ5 tubes for all the Class 5 owners. I've got 10 or more that are unmatched but are excellent tubes. I've already got a good stash put away for my own personal use.

Anyway, that's my tube story for the week - one EL84. Now I'm going to go build a couple of effects pedals out of all the goodies I found.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I'm going to have a blowout sale on single EL84/6BQ5 tubes for all the Class 5 owners...


PM sent! 

JV


----------



## Dimitar

I don't like EH tubes in preamp. For preamp I like Tungsols. EH power tubes are okay.


----------



## iron broadsword

Had a chance tonight at church to really play with the amp since putting all new tung-sol's in the preamp and MAN does it sing! Got some tung-sol 6l6GC-STR's in the power section, and put it all together and it's just beautiful in my JCM900!


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> I've got to tell all of you about my latest tube experience. Those of you who know me are aware that my big tube-buying expeditions are usually full of the weird and supernatural. I run a weekly county newspaper with the help of my business partner and our single full-time employee. (Just to brag, we were chosen as the 2011 Small Business of the Year in our county!). It's a lot of work and we do all of it. I'm the computer geek/publisher, my partner is the reporter/editor. I know it's like being the head chicken plucker, but you have to have titles in this business.
> 
> Anyway, Thursday is our day to go out and call on customers, deliver papers to businesses, load coin-op racks, etc., the shit it takes out competitor 15 people to accomplish and we're still kicking their asses. There's this building I've driven past for 3+ years every Thursday. It's practically out in the middle of nowhere, and it has an old Zenith neon sign in the window (unlit).
> 
> Today for some reason, I decided to stop there and see what was going on with the building. I drove up to the house back in behind of the shop and introduced myself the lady who answered the door and told her that we were looking for tubes and related equipment. She said I'd have to talk to her husband and see what he said. I gave him a call and after awhile he said for us to just go through the building and see what we wanted. I didn't find hardly any old tubes, but she said he'd be home at 5 p.m. and I called dude and he said to meet there at 6 pm and he'd show me where the good stuff was.
> 
> So, I get there at 5:55 and he hasn't made it home yet. I called him and he said to go down and start picking out stuff and he'd be along in 45 minutes or so. I took my 19 year old son with me and we started going through everything we could find. I found at least 5 tube caddies which were EMPTY. I did find a few cardboard flats of tubes but nothing out of the ordinary.
> 
> When dude showed up, he said we were looking at the wrong place. The wall on the west side of the building had collapsed and the shelf that all the tubes were on were now reverting back to soil. It was more like archaeology than tube scavenging! We moved the shelf out of the way and dug through the remains of a particleboard floor, dirt, and brown recluse spiders and I think we dug out most of the tubes. I just finished going over the first batch and found 3 Amperex Bugle Boy EL84's (rX2), another 6BQ5 or two, maybe 4 Tung-Sol 12BZ7's, and maybe one 12AX7. That's when he told me that his veterinarian had already come in and took the tube tester, O-scope, and a few tubes that he could use repairing radios. Right. Same old song.
> 
> Anyway, he was a really nice dude and told us to come get whatever we wanted out of there before he burns the place down in the immediate future. There are electrolytics, resistors, signal caps, circuit boards loaded with all kinds of good components, but there doesn't appear to be much more tube-realated stuff except for a handful of empty caddies.
> 
> When we had worked up a good sweat, he told us that his veterinarian was a radio repairman who had picked through the tubes before the wall and tube shelves collapsed. I have an open offer to come back this weekend and sort through some more.
> 
> I got out with a hickok piece of equipment (maybe a signal generator), several of those tube socket adapters that let you take readings off the pins while the tube is operating, a GE 6BQ5, a handful of power tubes of the type that HAM radio people go crazy over, I think 4 or 5 12BZ7's, a LOT of 12AZ7's, a 12AU7's and one possible 12AX7. Not bad for $20 but I don't know if it was worth the work. He said to come back any time this weekend and go through it some more, and he also says he has a couple of outbuildings with more of his father's old tubes in them. I think I've found a way to spend my Saturday.





RiverRatt said:


> To continue the EL84 goodness, I raided that same TV shop from last week and found an Amperex xF3 EL84 with an X7E factory date code in an old TV that I meant to look through last time and forgot about. X is the code for the Philips plant in Sittard, Holland, and it was made in May of 1957. There are a couple of guys on here who can attest to the goodness that is a Sittard EL84. It's really weird how I won't see a particular tube type for months, then all of a sudden they are everywhere.
> 
> I took all the big sweep tubes by and let my friend who's into HAM radio dig through them Thursday evening. He pulled out some good stuff and said he's going to come up with some EL84's and 12AX7's to trade me for them. He also has a line on some old EL34's that some of his HAM friends use until their output power starts to drop a little and they throw them out and put in another set. He says they still test at 80% or better. I'm looking forward to checking some of those out.
> 
> I'm going to have a blowout sale on single EL84/6BQ5 tubes for all the Class 5 owners. I've got 10 or more that are unmatched but are excellent tubes. I've already got a good stash put away for my own personal use.
> 
> Anyway, that's my tube story for the week - one EL84. Now I'm going to go build a couple of effects pedals out of all the goodies I found.



Dang Alan... You always find the most interesting stuff...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Josh! Yeah, you just gotta keep looking. You'll never find anything much if you don't ask. Tell enough people and you'll eventually find someone whose granddad worked on TV's and Radios and all his stuff is in the barn, that kind of thing. 

Like I've always said, find and make friends with the HAM radio guys. They know their tubes and usually don't have much use for small receiving tubes like 12AX7's and EL84's. I bought over 3 dozen 12AX7's from a guy for $1 each. He was just cleaning out his shed and getting rid of stuff.

Raiding TV's and radios is okay, but you'll find maybe one gold nugget for every 99 turds you go through.


----------



## iron broadsword

The more I play on my dual reverb, the more I wonder about all the hate. I have to assume it boils down to 'eww, clipping diodes' + 'eww, it's not an 800' + 'I never thought to jumper the looop', cause with the fresh tung-sols in the preamp it sounds mind-blowing with the master on 2 even, on the 50watt mode. It breathes so well, it's sonic bliss!


----------



## RiverRatt

Don't listen to all the critics. If you like it, that's what matters. There's a lot of tone snobbery that goes on here but it all boils down to what's coming out of your speakers. If the guy in the front row can't tell you're using an amp with clipping diodes, then what's the problem?


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to have a blowout sale on single EL84/6BQ5 tubes for all the Class 5 owners. I've got 10 or more that are unmatched but are excellent tubes. I've already got a good stash put away for my own personal use.



And Vox NT owners!
I might have to hit that up too. I have a couple great sets as you know, but the phrase "blowout" is very inviting!


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, you've already got some Sittards. They are the best thing to come out of Holland since Purple Haze.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Josh! Yeah, you just gotta keep looking. You'll never find anything much if you don't ask. Tell enough people and you'll eventually find someone whose granddad worked on TV's and Radios and all his stuff is in the barn, that kind of thing.
> 
> Like I've always said, find and make friends with the HAM radio guys. They know their tubes and usually don't have much use for small receiving tubes like 12AX7's and EL84's. I bought over 3 dozen 12AX7's from a guy for $1 each. He was just cleaning out his shed and getting rid of stuff.
> 
> Raiding TV's and radios is okay, but you'll find maybe one gold nugget for every 99 turds you go through.



Too true... I probably also just plain need to get out more. I get lazy and don't stop at places that catch my eye...

... Shame on me...


----------



## RiverRatt

Do it. You'll be amazed at what's out there. You have to get out there and follow through with every lead though. There's a fine line between being interested and being a complete pain in the ass that you have to learn not to cross. 

The biggest SNAFU I ever talked myself into was one Saturday at the guy's house I got all the 5751's from. I had been awakened way too early that morning with at least 100 Harley's going past the house (I live in a place that's a popular weekend retreat - kinda like the Lake Tahoe of the Tennessee Valley). I was bitching about the house rattling and not being able to sleep, and then and only then did I notice the Harley parked in this old geezer's carport. I've been afraid to call him and ask him if he has anything else for sale.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Hey, you've already got some Sittards. They are the best thing to come out of Holland since Purple Haze.



 Indeed


----------



## joshuaaewallen

RiverRatt said:


> Do it. You'll be amazed at what's out there. You have to get out there and follow through with every lead though. There's a fine line between being interested and being a complete pain in the ass that you have to learn not to cross.
> 
> The biggest SNAFU I ever talked myself into was one Saturday at the guy's house I got all the 5751's from. I had been awakened way too early that morning with at least 100 Harley's going past the house (I live in a place that's a popular weekend retreat - kinda like the Lake Tahoe of the Tennessee Valley). I was bitching about the house rattling and not being able to sleep, and then and only then did I notice the Harley parked in this old geezer's carport. I've been afraid to call him and ask him if he has anything else for sale.




Yeah... I know yer right. I always seem to be in a hurry to get home, or am too tired or lazy. My few forays into old tube electronics have yield very few useful tubes, but I have, I admit, slacked off in the follow-through department...

Good story about putting your foot in your mouth with that guy... Sounds like me. I honestly have nothing at all against Harley's or those that ride them, but one time I recall telling a joke (Q: What's the difference between a Harley-Davidson and a Hoover Vacuum? A: The Hoover vacuum only holds one dirt-bag, while the Harley-Davidson holds two!) And then realizing I had just told it to a devoted Harley guy with his pride and joy sitting just 10ft away in his garage! Of course I didn't mean anything by it, and after that I'd liked to have crawled under a rock!


----------



## RiverRatt

I know... one of my closest cousins has a motorcycle repair shop. He sells some gear too, but mainly he changes tires, trim, and does very good engine and tranny work. He had one of the first bikes I ever saw with ghost flames. It looked like a black tank until the sun hit it, and then there was a blaze of orange fire under the black. I designed his store logo even. I like motorcycles as much as the next guy but not at 7 a.m. on one of the two days of the week I have a decent shot at sleeping late on.

This is what the sign designer did with the logo I made. I thought my bike looked better. If any of you guys find yourselves traveling down US Highway 45 in Tennessee headed to the gulf, stop in and say "hi". The shop is just a few miles north of the Mississippi state line.






http://www.facebook.com/pages/Whitaker-Motors-Cycle-Sales/179989503173


----------



## Captshiznit

Question for you preamp tube guys in the know.

Should I upgrade the preamp tubes on my marshall TSL 100?

Currently have JJ EL34 power tubes in it and the preamp tubes are the original Marshall ones. I think that came with the head which is 6-8 years old at a guess.

Should I bother replacing them? what kind of tonal improvements can I expect with some better tubes. Also what kind of preamp tubes should I be looking at? there is a huge list on eurotubes gold plated ones blah blah. I play mostly rock.

Cheers


----------



## RiverRatt

Check the serial number. The group of four digits is the year it was made. If it's an earlier one, it might have Marshall/Ei preamp tubes. They can sound really nice.


----------



## Captshiznit

RiverRatt said:


> Check the serial number. The group of four digits is the year it was made. If it's an earlier one, it might have Marshall/Ei preamp tubes. They can sound really nice.


 

Each says something slightly different 

One says VLVE-00040 below it WK27
Another one: VLVE-00008R
Other one: VLVE-00041 and WK43
And last one: VLVE-00051 and WK41

Whatever any of that means.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Alan, you know I'm not in a rush
> 
> Ever find out anything with that Fluke?



Matt, I keep forgetting about that when I'm on here. Yes, I checked it and it powers up and all the switches work. I don't have any leads that will fit it though. It's probably a great meter. I'd like to check it against my handheld Fluke just to see what it reads. It has high and low-impedance inputs. I really need to use it to calibrate my B&K 707 before I get rid of it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Captshiznit said:


> Each says something slightly different
> 
> One says VLVE-00040 below it WK27
> Another one: VLVE-00008R
> Other one: VLVE-00041 and WK43
> And last one: VLVE-00051 and WK41
> 
> Whatever any of that means.



According to the info in the Workbench Valve Codes thread, your 00040 and 00008R are both Sovtek tubes made in Russia. There are a couple of pictures of 00041 and 00051 and they are Ei tubes. Look for a long plate tube with seams on the top of the tube like in the picture and smooth plates. I don't know if Marshall ever put the same number on different brands of tubes. If you could get us a picture of them it would help a lot. If they turn out to be Ei tubes they are good tone tubes. I used to run one in V1 and one in V4 of my DSL50.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Captshiznit said:


> Question for you preamp tube guys in the know.
> 
> Should I upgrade the preamp tubes on my marshall TSL 100?
> 
> ... Should I bother replacing them? what kind of tonal improvements can I expect with some better tubes. Also what kind of preamp tubes should I be looking at? there is a huge list on eurotubes gold plated ones blah blah. I play mostly rock.
> 
> Cheers



Hey mate, and welcome to the thread. Being a TSL user I personally am of the firm opinion that good tubes make this, already great sounding, rock amp, even better. With the right tubes you can really sculpt your tone into just want you desire with differences ranging from subtle to dramatic. I have a variety of sound samples of my rig, demoing a variety of different pre-amp tubes, to, hopefully, show just a few of the many tonal changes that can be achieved simply by changing one of the four pre-amp tubes in the TSL. At first it seems a bit daunting to sort through, but you will likely soon find that there are many more colors on the rainbow to tap into, just by virtue of those llittle glass bottles in your amp. That said... Have a look at the link below. I hope this proves somewhat helpful.

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/20825-preamp-tubes-auditioning-tubes.html


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, I keep forgetting about that when I'm on here. Yes, I checked it and it powers up and all the switches work. I don't have any leads that will fit it though. It's probably a great meter. I'd like to check it against my handheld Fluke just to see what it reads. It has high and low-impedance inputs. I really need to use it to calibrate my B&K 707 before I get rid of it.



Your regular meter leads don't fit?

 Whenever you're done, if you can part with it, let me know and we'll see if the timing's right and can strike up a deal


----------



## RiverRatt

No, the connectors leads on this thing aren't anything like the ones on my handheld meter. I was expecting banana plugs but these are a lot better quality. They look like they would have a solid outer ring and a banana plug or smaller in the middle. There's also what looks like an old serial-type connector. 

If you could find or build a pair of test leads for it, I'll bet it would still work. It might need calibrating but it's built like a tank and it seems to be in good condition. It has this cool NASA Apollo era look to it, like a huge red LCD readout and more plugs on the front than a telephone switchboard. It has handles on the front corners like older rack gear.


----------



## MM54

That does sound good, leads couldn't be that hard to come by for it. What's the model number again (so I can look it up)? The sort of industrial-used-to-be-high-tech look is quite my thing as well 

I have a hand-held meter that the probes have a solid outer ring with the banana plug in the middle, you can't use the leads on jacks that don't have the space for them, but I've used regular banana plug leads on it before and it seemed to work just fine.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't get to it right now. I've got to get ready for work and it's buried under a stack of debris. I'll check it when I get home this evening.


----------



## sccloser

Just dropping by to say that I am still alive.


----------



## Captshiznit

joshuaaewallen said:


> Hey mate, and welcome to the thread. Being a TSL user I personally am of the firm opinion that good tubes make this, already great sounding, rock amp, even better. With the right tubes you can really sculpt your tone into just want you desire with differences ranging from subtle to dramatic. I have a variety of sound samples of my rig, demoing a variety of different pre-amp tubes, to, hopefully, show just a few of the many tonal changes that can be achieved simply by changing one of the four pre-amp tubes in the TSL. At first it seems a bit daunting to sort through, but you will likely soon find that there are many more colors on the rainbow to tap into, just by virtue of those llittle glass bottles in your amp. That said... Have a look at the link below. I hope this proves somewhat helpful.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/20825-preamp-tubes-auditioning-tubes.html


 
Hi thanks dude,

I've done some reading got some preamp tubes on the way. Really good link will check it out.

Preamp tubes I got if you are curios 2 Tung sol's for V1 and V2 a JJ EC803s for v3 and a Sovtek LPS for V4

Will also probably mix them about but that's the idea so far.

Will also take some pics of my old marshall tubes for guys to ID I really wanna know what they are so I can also maybe throw them into my tube mix.


----------



## RiverRatt

sccloser said:


> Just dropping by to say that I am still alive.



Always good to know Vic! 

I was just thinking I haven't seen Cody or Joe hangin' out much either. Glad that Josh is getting a post or two in.


----------



## Drake

Wow, what a great thread. They should make this one a sticky!
Anyway, other than my vintage marshalls, I am working on a new project, and could use some advice. 
I am up grading a vintage Ampeg B25 Bass amp. It currently has new JJ tubes in it and the tone is very "mid-Range". I need something to pull the bass back out of it. Also, it has a hum to it. All the caps have been replaced, good cables etc...so. I read on here that some preamp tubes could cut hum. Which ones would be best? It uses 12ax7's and a 6cg7.
Thans for any advice!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you saying that you had a hum before changing tubes? If it was there already, I suspect a ground or lead dress problem.

Try swapping your 12AX7 tubes around and see if the hum changes. If so, it is a tube problem. Just because you got new tubes doesn't rule them out.

You probably would be better off with a Tung-Sol in your V1 slot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The hum could be coming from your power tubes as well.

Does your V1 tube have a metal shield on it? If not, is the tube socket the kind that you can put a shield on? This may help a little as well.


----------



## Drake

Yeah, the amp was serviced when I bought it, then my tech re-serviced it and said the hum was there before he worked on it. It does have shields on it already. Im getting ready to dump the JJ's for a set of Shuguang KT88's. Ill try the tung sol 12ax7 in v1
ps...what is a lead dress?
thanks


----------



## Drake

I figure the lead dress is the covering for the power (lead) cable, duh. Yeah, we replaced the whole thing and put a modern three prong ground power lead in.


----------



## mickeydg5

Drake said:


> Yeah, the amp was serviced when I bought it, then my tech re-serviced it and said the hum was there before he worked on it. It does have shields on it already. Im getting ready to dump the JJ's for a set of Shuguang KT88's. Ill try the tung sol 12ax7 in v1
> ps...what is a lead dress?
> thanks


 
The subject is an Ampeg B25; What type of JJ power tubes are in there right now?


----------



## Drake

I had my tech rework it for KT88's. I know that is not stock. We also took out the rectifier tube and went solid state...better for bass than a sag tone (good for guitar)
makes a bass muddy. The pre amp is 12ax7 and one 6cg7. Its had a cap job too. Basically, not much left of the original design LOL Even put in a cooling fan....hot rod!


----------



## mickeydg5

Drake said:


> I had my tech rework it for KT88's. I know that is not stock. We also took out the rectifier tube and went solid state...better for bass than a sag tone (good for guitar)
> makes a bass muddy. The pre amp is 12ax7 and one 6cg7. Its had a cap job too. Basically, not much left of the original design LOL Even put in a cooling fan....hot rod!


 
Plot thickens.
Did the tech say whether or not the hum was there prior to rebuilding for KT88 tubes?
Was the power transformer swapped out? If so, what brand & model?

I do not want to ask too many more questions because we are in a preamp tube thread.


----------



## RiverRatt

I revisited a guy I've bought from in the past today. He brings out boxes of tubes and insists that they are the ones I've already looked at, but then I find surprises like these. I don't think I would have overlooked these.





L-R: Tungsram, Amperex Heerlen, Amperex Heerlen with Bugle Boy logo intact (YAY!) and an unknown 12AX7, possibly Hitachi. It has a seam that runs all the way from bottom to top on two sides, like the bottle was two pieces of glass joined vertically.

The icing on the cake:




Like I said, I'm on a EL84/6BQ5 roll lately. L-R: Sylvania, Unknown W. Germany (looks like Russian 6P14P), Sylvania, G.E., G.E., and a Mullard EZ81. If the rectifier tests good, I'm not going to have much of an excuse not to put together an 18 watt clone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice find on the tubes, especially the Bugle Boy. Is the date code still visible on it?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, Delta2K2. I can barely make out the bottom of the type code. It looks like I65. The other Amperex without a label is a couple of years newer than that. You can read the date code fine but that's the only thing left on the tube. I just gave it a 30 minute test drive in the VM and it sounded good.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> I revisited a guy I've bought from in the past today. He brings out boxes of tubes and insists that they are the ones I've already looked at, but then I find surprises like these. I don't think I would have overlooked these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> L-R: Tungsram, Amperex Heerlen, Amperex Heerlen with Bugle Boy logo intact (YAY!) and an unknown 12AX7, possibly Hitachi. It has a seam that runs all the way from bottom to top on two sides, like the bottle was two pieces of glass joined vertically.
> 
> The icing on the cake:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I'm on a EL84/6BQ5 roll lately. L-R: Sylvania, Unknown W. Germany (looks like Russian 6P14P), Sylvania, G.E., G.E., and a Mullard EZ81. If the rectifier tests good, I'm not going to have much of an excuse not to put together an 18 watt clone.



Good score!


----------



## 66 galaxie

Wow, nice score Alan!


----------



## Drake

No, the PT was not replaced.


----------



## mickeydg5

Drake said:


> No, the PT was not replaced.


 
There is a probable cause. The 7027 tubes use 0.9 amps each at the filament (heater) where the KT88 uses 1.6 amps each. I do not have specifications on the PT but the filament windings are being taxed heavily maybe causing hum.

There is (should be) a hum adjust control in the filament (heater) circuit. Make sure it is adjusted for least hum.


----------



## Drake

Thanks a lot. I'll check in to it ASAP.
Cool thread!


----------



## mickeydg5

Drake said:


> Thanks a lot. I'll check in to it ASAP.
> Cool thread!


 
Welcome.


----------



## RiverRatt

Are your tubes happy to see you when you get home?






You can thank my kids for this one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I had a nose like that, I'd have a lot of girlfriends.


----------



## RiverRatt

A guy gave me a box of pretty much useless military tubes and that was one of them. I got a couple of 6U5 eye tubes that are pretty cool. There's a 2050 and a 6Y6G that are semi-useful. I have no idea what to do with the rest. I sent Matt a 6080 that has to be the biggest twin triode tube I've ever seen. It's supposed to make a decent audio amplifier. I figured he could use it more than I could.


----------



## RiverRatt

Just got back from checking out a batch of tubes, two caddies worth to be exact. I found one RCA 12AX7 with the short plates and flat-sided micas. I also picked up three more 6BQ5's (they're everywhere!). I picked up a couple of 6LQ6's for my friend with the HAM radio addiction. I got a 300B just for the hell of it. It's a massive tube.

On top of those, I also bought a Hickok 800 tester that appears to be working fine and he threw in a big box of loose tubes. There may be a few gems in it. I have to dust them off good before I'll know.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt seems to think this one might be worth a buck or two, so I thought I'd post it. Here it is. Now I'm going to go dig through that box of loose tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

Dude if that tube is good you're looking at over 1G for sure.
That tube tester is mighty nice too.


----------



## MM54




----------



## RiverRatt

Wow. This is kinda like the feeling when the slot machine starts ticking off $$$ and you wonder when it's gonna stop! 

Mickey, a quick question about the Hickok. On the roll chart, it shows the MU of a 12AX7 at 1250. Is that minimum good or new? I didn't get any paperwork with it. I think I've gotten everything figured out except that. I've got a 12AX7 that tested at 80% per side on the B&K 707 and it reads about 1100 on the Hickok. How do I find out what's minimum good?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> a quick question about the Hickok. On the roll chart, it shows the MU of a 12AX7 at 1250. Is that minimum good or new? I didn't get any paperwork with it.


 
The roll chart on a Hickok 800(A) gives the average or nominal Gm for amplifier/power tube value which is their "as new" relative to tube manuals.

info for 800A (has nuvistor and compactron), similar to 800:
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/hickok/800a/
You can always get more info on the 800 itself. You may want to find some sort of calibration information as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

It seems to be dead-on with my 12AX7's. I just tested a Tungsram that was tested at 90-92 on a friend's calibrated B&K 747. I read 1100 and 1150 on the Hickok. I mainly want to know what is nominal good. I could probably find out by checking tube listings on eBay and see what others are saying. I got the BAMA stuff as soon as I got home with it 

I noticed in the 800A manual that there is a way to switch the tester to the 100% scale (green = good). I can't figure out how to do that with mine.


----------



## mickeydg5

The 800 models use the dot system.
Tube 12AX7 is loaded into socket
LEAKAGE selector set to TUBE TEST
Selectors and bias are set according to chart
LINE ADJUST should be set at meter LINE TEST while pressing P7
When testing a 12AX7 for merit (bad-good) the SHUNT should be set to 58 (I believe) and press P4
When testing a 12AX7 for Gm the shunt should be set at 73 (dot) for 3000 scale and press P4
Same procedure for other tubes.

Not positvely sure but I believe that on a 800 model a 12AX7 with 1250 Gm would read about 2000 on merit.
So a 12AX7 that reads 1100 Gm should read about 1760 merit. Minimum merit will read to the left of the question mark which should be about 800 Gm for JAN minimum. (If calibrated correctly.)


----------



## markslespaul

*Telefunken tubes and placement*

I have a ? about preamp tubes.I have aquired some nice Telefunken preamp tubes.First a 12ax7 with ribbed plates and a 12ax7 with smooth plates also a 12at7.Where should I put the ribbed and smooth plate versions in a Marshall jcm800 2210 made in 1987? also would the 12at7 be good in the P.I. socket.Any help would be greatly appreciated.Also is v1 the tube for the boost channel as when I pull the v2 tube the boost channel still works and when I switch to the regular channel there is no sound till I plug in a tube.Any suggestions?


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats on the Tele's - they are definitely one of my favorites. I think the ribbed plates are a little more aggressive and the smooth plates are a little cleaner or more hi-fi. Both sound fine in a Marshall. 

I'm not familiar with your amp. You definitely won't hurt anything by trying the 12AX7's in any of the sockets. Keep the 12AT7 for when you have a Fender amp that needs a reverb driver. A 12AT7 PI tube will make your amp sound a little more like a cranked amp at lower volume, but IMO you sacrifice a lot of tone and dynamics.


----------



## Inkalen

Hallooooo - anybody home ????


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I'm still lurking around. Some of the other guys need to get on here and post again. I've tried to get things rolling time and again again and it just ain't happening. I've been thinking about building another amp or starting some other project. The forums have gotten boring.


----------



## Inkalen

Well since I was here last time there are about 150 new pages, so it is not always this quiet!
Unfortunately, I have to force myself to take breaks since I have a tendency to get a bit carried away at all the great offers at ebay - that site can be dangerously addictive if one is not careful


----------



## Inkalen

Try taking a look at this and tell me what you see:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/221016569202?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Alan, I got that amp from my buddy.
It's part of the way done. It's got some pretty trick features...
Preamp is a 6sl7
Power tube can be either a 6V6 or a 6L6 
Rectifier is a 5Y3
There is a switch on the back that adds some gain.
There is another switch so I can run 8 ur 16 ohm output.
I think I'm going to have my other buddy build me another speaker cab, and put a 10" speaker in there. That way I will have a 10" and a 12".
It will be like a mini tweed stack 

I've been trying a bunch of tubes and speakers in it. They all sound good.

Pics...


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen said:


> Try taking a look at this and tell me what you see:
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/221016569202?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


 

A gold pin ECC803 Tesla tube is supposed to be grouped in with creme of the crop. That is if it is a real one. I am leary of some tubes and have a problem with dropping that much money on tubes for a guitar amplifier, even if it is certain.

Look at this stuff. I read through some of it from time to time. Jac seems to have plenty of experience with equipment and tubes. There are lots of links and stuff to read.
http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html

Some sights claim that even if these are rebranded they may sound good with the intended low noise. But the price paid is at the buyers descretion.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> A gold pin ECC803 Tesla tube is supposed to be grouped in with creme of the crop. That is if it is a real one. I am leary of some tubes and have a problem with dropping that much money on tubes for a guitar amplifier, even if it is certain.
> 
> Look at this stuff. I read through some of it from time to time. Jac seems to have plenty of experience with equipment and tubes. There are lots of links and stuff to read.
> http://www.jacmusic.com/nos/ECC83-part-numbering1.html
> 
> Some sights claim that even if these are rebranded they may sound good with the intended low noise. But the price paid is at the buyers descretion.



See the whole trick is that these ones are in fact “fake” – sure they are tubes alright, and will probably glow in the dark, but they are early JJ tubes with the Tesla brand.
Tesla did make an ECC803s but that resembles the ribbed plate TFK in construction, whereas the Tesla equivalent of TFK ECC803s is called E83CC. Why Tesla switched the naming scheme vs. TFK beats me. The Tesla E83CC is a great tube in my opinion and can be found to around 40-60$ in the gold pin version.
I think this seller is incredibly dishonest by calling these tubes NOS and not writing JJ. I wrote to him one day before the auction ended and asked whether they were not in fact JJ, which he confirmed!
So he knows that he is not telling the whole truth about these tubes and some pour guy got a horrible deal


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, I'm still lurking around. Some of the other guys need to get on here and post again. I've tried to get things rolling time and again again and it just ain't happening. I've been thinking about building another amp or starting some other project. The forums have gotten boring.



I've been ral busy with getting ready to move. After being in Kansas for 6 years, I have a lot of stuff to get rid of. I am moving to Muskogee, OK. Plenty of good hunting and fishing done there. I'm by four major lakes and three big rivers. Once I get squared away, I'm going to get a boat.

Yes Alan, it seems as if "all" of the forums and the Facebook page have gotten pretty stale. It's just not like 2010. It's too bad, as I really enjoyed participating here. Now I just want to go fishing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

66 galaxie said:


> Hey Alan, I got that amp from my buddy.
> It's part of the way done. It's got some pretty trick features...
> 
> Preamp is a 6sl7.



I have two new Russian 6H9C's (6SL7's) that I will give you if you just pay for postage. I would mail them in a Priority box for $6.50.

It looks like that is what you are already running.

Send me an email if you want them, because I don't get here very much anymore.

Marty meospeak@aol.com


----------



## RiverRatt

66 galaxie said:


> Hey Alan, I got that amp from my buddy.
> It's part of the way done. It's got some pretty trick features...
> Preamp is a 6sl7
> Power tube can be either a 6V6 or a 6L6
> Rectifier is a 5Y3
> There is a switch on the back that adds some gain.
> There is another switch so I can run 8 ur 16 ohm output.
> I think I'm going to have my other buddy build me another speaker cab, and put a 10" speaker in there. That way I will have a 10" and a 12".
> It will be like a mini tweed stack



Dude, that's NOT a 5Y3 rectifier. That's a Mullard GZ34/5AR4. That's easily a $100 tube if it's good.

I think I might have some old CBS 6SL7's that I could hook you up with. They came out of an old Bogen turntable. I have a really strange 6SN7 that I wish I had a use for. I've never seen anything like it. It has a coin base and is about as tall as a 6V6GT. The elements are way up in the top of the tube and the posts that connect them to the pins are an inch long.

The amp looks nice. I've never overdriven a 6SN7 but I've always heard good things about them.


----------



## 66 galaxie

MartyStrat54 said:


> I have two new Russian 6H9C's (6SL7's) that I will give you if you just pay for postage. I would mail them in a Priority box for $6.50.
> 
> It looks like that is what you are already running.
> 
> Send me an email if you want them, because I don't get here very much anymore.
> 
> Marty meospeak@aol.com



Cool Marty! 
Email sent...


----------



## 66 galaxie

RiverRatt said:


> Dude, that's NOT a 5Y3 rectifier. That's a Mullard GZ34/5AR4. That's easily a $100 tube if it's good.
> 
> I think I might have some old CBS 6SL7's that I could hook you up with. They came out of an old Bogen turntable. I have a really strange 6SN7 that I wish I had a use for. I've never seen anything like it. It has a coin base and is about as tall as a 6V6GT. The elements are way up in the top of the tube and the posts that connect them to the pins are an inch long.
> 
> The amp looks nice. I've never overdriven a 6SN7 but I've always heard good things about them.



Hey Alan, sorry about the confusion. My buddy just threw that tube in there the other night. It originally had the 5Y3 in it. This thing sounds so bad ass cranked up  It really has a great clean sound, you get it up about 2/3rds and it starts getting nasty 

Let me know on the tubes. I'm really getting into this type of amp lately.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've been ral busy with getting ready to move. After being in Kansas for 6 years, I have a lot of stuff to get rid of. I am moving to Muskogee, OK. Plenty of good hunting and fishing done there. I'm by four major lakes and three big rivers. Once I get squared away, I'm going to get a boat.
> 
> Yes Alan, it seems as if "all" of the forums and the Facebook page have gotten pretty stale. It's just not like 2010. It's too bad, as I really enjoyed participating here. Now I just want to go fishing.



Sounds like you are head'n for some R&R. Rest and relaxation. Man that sounds good although I'd be happier mountain biking. I don't like the smell of fish. Smells like bad snatch.:eek2:

I just haven't found time to hang out other than a quick lurk here and there. We had some damn good times here!


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know most of the people any more. There's nobody to talk trash with... everybody just thinks you're an old dickhead, you know? 

Marty, that does sound nice. I used to like to fish. I didn't choose my name here at random. From the time I was 14 or 15, we spent all summer at the Tennessee river or on Pickwick Lake above the dam. When the kids were small I'd take them down below the dam with some crickets and worms and my job was to bait the hooks and take the bluegill off when they caught one. We used to fill up 5 gallon buckets with them. Catfish, smallmouth, largemouth, crappie, sauger (like a small walleye), and striped bass. IIRC someone caught a 75lb striper below the dam. I'm within a few miles of all this fishing paradise and I go maybe once or twice a year now. I'm a has-been river rat. I don't even own a boat. Too much upkeep for too little use.

Alex, I'll see if I can dig those tubes up. I know I have a few somewhere.


----------



## RiverRatt

I should take a picture of my gear. I don't have much left - some asshole broke into my storage room and stole almost every piece of fishing equipment I owned. I'm slowly building it back up. Still got my heavy-duty rig. This will tell you a little bit about the fish we went after. I use a Penn 4/0 Senator reel on a saltwater rod. I have a few Daiwa and Garcia baitcasters for bass and a couple of spinning rigs for bass and crappie, but this is for stripers and BIG catfish. A reel that has a picture of a blue marlin on the side is made for big fish. If you've ever tried to land a 20lb striper in the tailraces below a dam, you'll know what I'm talking about. That current is moving along.


----------



## 66 galaxie

I used to do a lot of fishing too.
The is a big dam here and we go Walleye fishing there. You are right, reeling them back in against the current is a workout 

Alan, keep me posted on those tubes. PM me your paypal and I'll get you some money.


----------



## RiverRatt

66 galaxie said:


> I used to do a lot of fishing too.
> The is a big dam here and we go Walleye fishing there. You are right, reeling them back in against the current is a workout
> 
> Alan, keep me posted on those tubes. PM me your paypal and I'll get you some money.



Let me find them first man... don't go sending money yet. My memory has a few holes in it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I've got two good CBS 6SL7's. On my Hickok, these test the same as a 12AX7. These numbers are Triode 1 and Triode 2, with new being 1250mmho. The first one tests at 1100/1125 and the second tests at 1800/1275. I also have a NOS/NIB Tung-Sol 5Y3GT which tests good. PM me what you're interested in and we'll talk money.


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats man, I think you'll like them. You know what the coolest thing about those 6SL7's is? The two triodes look like a 12AX7 suspended in a big bottle.


----------



## Inkalen

Hey Alan,
I just bought a TFK tube - long smooth plate, almost intact but very fragile Telefunken logo, diamond in the bottom AND 4 seams at the top !
So it appears your mystery tube has siblings...


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Hi folks, been a while since I posted in here. I just picked up an unknown tube off Ebay for little money & wondered if I could get a positive ID from you guys please ?

My best guess is a Tungsram based on the dual flat getter supports & large hole in the anodes, but it's just a guess.

This is the only pic I have at the moment, once it arrives I'll get some better shots:


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Blacque Jacque said:


> Hi folks, been a while since I posted in here. I just picked up an unknown tube off Ebay for little money & wondered if I could get a positive ID from you guys please ?
> 
> My best guess is a Tungsram based on the dual flat getter supports & large hole in the anodes, but it's just a guess.
> 
> This is the only pic I have at the moment, once it arrives I'll get some better shots:



Sure looks like a tungsram to me, I've picked upa few of these for not a lot of scratch due to them not being labelled as tungsrams, which had they been would likely have fetched a lot more.


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Hey Alan,
> I just bought a TFK tube - long smooth plate, almost intact but very fragile Telefunken logo, diamond in the bottom AND 4 seams at the top !
> So it appears your mystery tube has siblings...



I'm not sure who really made those. I don't have those two anymore. I suspected Ei but then Micky said they were real Telefunkens so I'm still in the dark. They sounded good, but not as sweet as an older Tele smooth plate.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Hi folks, been a while since I posted in here. I just picked up an unknown tube off Ebay for little money & wondered if I could get a positive ID from you guys please ?
> 
> My best guess is a Tungsram based on the dual flat getter supports & large hole in the anodes, but it's just a guess.
> 
> This is the only pic I have at the moment, once it arrives I'll get some better shots:



If the other side of the tube has the little metal tag with a 2-digit number embossed and stuck to the getter post then it's definitely a Tungsram. I have a Tungsram or two but I can't put my hands on one without doing some digging and I have to go to work, but the construction looks right..


----------



## Inkalen

Agree - look Tungsram like - does it have a little metallic plate with a number on the other side ?

Edit: Sorry for the double post - did not see RRs response


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I can't tell yet, still waiting for the postman, that's just the Ebay picture.

Is the white print significant in dating it ? All the ones I've managed to find have yellow print ?


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> I'm not sure who really made those. I don't have those two anymore. I suspected Ei but then Micky said they were real Telefunkens so I'm still in the dark. They sounded good, but not as sweet as an older Tele smooth plate.


Well I bought it from a tube-guy who called it a TFK, so certainly hope it is real.
It does look very old, so is it not possible that the early TFKs had seems?


----------



## Inkalen

Blacque Jacque said:


> I can't tell yet, still waiting for the postman, that's just the Ebay picture.
> 
> Is the white print significant in dating it ? All the ones I've managed to find have yellow print ?


 hmm, don't think so, if it is a relabeled tube it could have whatever color, and this looks very generic. My 2 Tungsrams do have yellow prints IIRC


----------



## Inkalen

Alan, I have a question for you – you scared the s… out of me by a statement some 100 pages ago regarding Raytheon BPs. You were saying that “regular” BPs are great sounding whereas JRPs rather ordinary. 
What does JRP mean? Is it some military thing? AND how do one tell the difference? 
I just bought a bunch Baldwin labeled ones and sure hope they are not the ordinary kind!!!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Well I bought it from a tube-guy who called it a TFK, so certainly hope it is real.
> It does look very old, so is it not possible that the early TFKs had seems?



I have 2 Telefunkens that have seams on the top, I will try to dig out the pictures. They are Tele's for sure, correct markings/plates/diamond on the bottom etc but have those phillips like seams on the top of the bottle.


----------



## Inkalen

Hey Spirit - that is beautiful pictures 


Looked at all 4 of my TFKs, and the two smooth plates both have seams whereas the 2 ribbed plates do not. Also the plates are crimped together in a "rough" fashion on the ribbed plates with big pieces off metal on the back side, whereas the smooth ones have more "refined" crimping holes like yours
IIRC they made the smooth plates early on and went to ribbed plates later, is that correct?


Are you suffering from TAS these days ?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> Hey Spirit - that is beautiful pictures
> 
> 
> Looked at all 4 of my TFKs, and the two smooth plates both have seams whereas the 2 ribbed plates do not. Also the plates are crimped together in a "rough" fashion on the ribbed plates with big pieces off metal on the back side, whereas the smooth ones have more "refined" crimping holes like yours
> IIRC they made the smooth plates early on and went to ribbed plates later, is that correct?
> 
> 
> Are you suffering from TAS these days ?



I'm not really up on the production history of the Telefunkens (or any valve for that matter, I just like them  ).

As to TAS well, i keep my eye open but make sure I only get myself proper bargains, so I miss out on a lot due to them going over my self imposed limits.

Been buying EL34s (RFT and Winged C) for my 2 EL34 equipped amps, and the occasional ECC83, got a couple of tunsgrams, a telefunken a really nice old long plate mullard, just odds and sods like that to help bolster the stash.


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> I'm not really up on the production history of the Telefunkens (or any valve for that matter, I just like them  ).
> 
> As to TAS well, i keep my eye open but make sure I only get myself proper bargains, so I miss out on a lot due to them going over my self imposed limits.
> 
> Been buying EL34s (RFT and Winged C) for my 2 EL34 equipped amps, and the occasional ECC83, got a couple of tunsgrams, a telefunken a really nice old long plate mullard, just odds and sods like that to help bolster the stash.



I don't know much about the histories either but sure I read it from one of the regulars in this thread, but it would take ages to find...

Well you are obviously in better control of your TAS than I am - I have to go through cold Turkeys once in a while - I then pack my homebrew tester and all tubes out of sight and most importantly stay away from ebay 

The JVM205 also use EL34 but I only have new produciton =C=. Tried to grap some NOS many times but always got outbid badly and have given up. Can you hear a big difference between your EL34's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Alan, I have a question for you – you scared the s… out of me by a statement some 100 pages ago regarding Raytheon BPs. You were saying that “regular” BPs are great sounding whereas JRPs rather ordinary.
> What does JRP mean? Is it some military thing? AND how do one tell the difference?
> I just bought a bunch Baldwin labeled ones and sure hope they are not the ordinary kind!!!



The JRP's are pretty much just really hot military versions of the standard Raytheon black plate. Some are just too hot to use in a guitar amp, at least if you want any sort of cleans. JRP (Joint Army Navy Raytheon Production (not sure about Production) - If there is any print left on the tube at all, the JRP will be red and the regular black plate will be yellow. 

I'm not kidding about hot. They are consistently very high-gain tubes. IMO the best place for them is as a phase inverter. V2 in a modern Marshall isn't so bad either. I don't think they are particularly musical in V1.


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> The JRP's are pretty much just really hot military versions of the standard Raytheon black plate. Some are just too hot to use in a guitar amp, at least if you want any sort of cleans. JRP (Joint Army Navy Raytheon Production (not sure about Production) - If there is any print left on the tube at all, the JRP will be red and the regular black plate will be yellow.
> 
> I'm not kidding about hot. They are consistently very high-gain tubes. IMO the best place for them is as a phase inverter. V2 in a modern Marshall isn't so bad either. I don't think they are particularly musical in V1.



So you basically want to avoid the JRPs, but there is no way to spot them visually if the silk screen is gone !?

I think almost all my BP Raytheon's are Baldwin labeled in yellow silk screen but hard to know if the color scheme was kept for these OEM's.
Suppose, though, that Baldwin used black plate Raytheons because they sounded good for audio purposes and were reliable.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't really think you need to avoid them, just be aware that they probably won't sound exactly like the Raytheon black plates we all know and love. They are well thought of in the audiophile community and as I'm sure you know the same tube doesn't perform or sound the same in all circuits. If you run across a JRP at a good price it's definitely worth having in your collection. A lot of the heavy-duty milspec tubes are a little stiff sounding for a V1 tube but they can be great in the other preamp slots.


----------



## Inkalen

Have you had problems with microphonic BP Rays? I know for a fact that one of mine squeals like crazy in the V2 position of a JVM205C, and I think one more is border line 



Would a Baldwin organ not be almost the same vibration wise as combo guitar amps? There were many tubes in one organ, how on earth did they avoid constant squealing - apart from the intended one


----------



## RiverRatt

I've always heard that long plate tubes are more prone to microphonics but I've never had a microphonic Raytheon. Organs are good sources for these tubes, but they are used pretty hard. A guy had an old Wurlitzer that I was going to fix up for him and about half the tubes in it tested below minimum (not to mention that most of the oscillators didn't work). He gave up on it and let me pick some of the tubes. I got some IEC Mullard I63's and those Telefunken tubes like yours. All the RCA and GE tubes were bad. No Raytheon tubes in that one.

Check this out. I'm putting some of my 300B money back into my hobby. I'm going to pick this up tomorrow. It's a military TV-7B/U tester, and it's one of the testers that was made by Hickok, not just their design. There were several companies that made TV-7 testers. This one looks like it just rolled off the assembly line.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan! 

Whats going on buddy?

Got a quick question, what is the best all around EL34 type tube. I got EH 6CA7's in my SLP, but I may want to try out some EL34s in it. Any ideas?


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Cody, I haven't heard from you in forever!

Yeah, plenty of ideas... what's your budget? Are you looking for NOS or current production? I might have a quad of Ruby EL34's - I haven't checked them against each other to see if they are close. I really like the Groove Tubes EL34M's. When I had my DSL50 I switched back and forth between a pair of RFT's and a pair of the EL34M's. There wasn't much of a difference at all. I left the GT tubes in the head when I sold it and the dude who bought it loved the tone. If you're wanting to get some old glass, Tesla or RFT is going to be your best bet.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Check this out. I'm putting some of my 300B money back into my hobby. I'm going to pick this up tomorrow. It's a military TV-7B/U tester, and it's one of the testers that was made by Hickok, not just their design. There were several companies that made TV-7 testers. This one looks like it just rolled off the assembly line.


 
Another nice tester. You can gets lots of manuals for that thing including maintenance and calibration.

From what I understand all TV-7 testers were made under Hickok license by other manufacturers. Hickok never produced a single one. Lots of people use and like them.

One day I would like to get a TV-2 model.


----------



## BluesRocker

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Cody, I haven't heard from you in forever!
> 
> Yeah, plenty of ideas... what's your budget? Are you looking for NOS or current production? I might have a quad of Ruby EL34's - I haven't checked them against each other to see if they are close. I really like the Groove Tubes EL34M's. When I had my DSL50 I switched back and forth between a pair of RFT's and a pair of the EL34M's. There wasn't much of a difference at all. I left the GT tubes in the head when I sold it and the dude who bought it loved the tone. If you're wanting to get some old glass, Tesla or RFT is going to be your best bet.




I am looking for something fairly cheap. lol Im a broke college student.


----------



## RiverRatt

Go with the Groove Tubes EL34M's then. I've tried the "soft" and "medium" tubes and couldn't tell much difference. Don't get the EL34-R.

Groove Tubes Gold Series GT-EL34-M Matched Power Tubes | Musician's Friend


----------



## BluesRocker

cool. I will keep those in mind. I probably wont buy any soon but its good to know what will be worth the time and money to actually buy.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Another nice tester. You can gets lots of manuals for that thing including maintenance and calibration.
> 
> From what I understand all TV-7 testers were made under Hickok license by other manufacturers. Hickok never produced a single one. Lots of people use and like them.
> 
> One day I would like to get a TV-2 model.



I was going by the info on this site. I know it's random internet info, but the guy sounds like he's done some research. The one I'm getting is the TV-7B/U tester, which is supposed to be the Hickok model. I should be able to compare it to my Hickok 800 and get an idea how accurate it is.

Military Hickok Tube Testers 

I've already hit the BAMA mirror site for everything they have. I also talked to the seller's dad - it's really his tester and his son is selling it for him. He said he was using it up until a month ago. I'm not too worried about it. I know for what I'm paying for it, I can get my money back if it's a dud.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> cool. I will keep those in mind. I probably wont buy any soon but its good to know what will be worth the time and money to actually buy.



The 34M's should be excellent in the plexi. I loved them too. Try to get the 1 to 3 rating. Earliest break up. Think ACDC in a bottle. Very much like the original Mullard XF2's I'm told by guys who have both.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I sent you mine to try out back when your DSL was still going. Did you ever get rid of that amp?


----------



## solarburn

Nah its still with me. It has 34M's in it too. When I get my JMP back from Joey I'll probably pick up a quad of them...when I have the money. Ain't no more buying just 2 now!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I was going by the info on this site. I know it's random internet info, but the guy sounds like he's done some research. The one I'm getting is the TV-7B/U tester, which is supposed to be the Hickok model. I should be able to compare it to my Hickok 800 and get an idea how accurate it is.
> 
> Military Hickok Tube Testers
> 
> I've already hit the BAMA mirror site for everything they have. I also talked to the seller's dad - it's really his tester and his son is selling it for him. He said he was using it up until a month ago. I'm not too worried about it. I know for what I'm paying for it, I can get my money back if it's a dud.


 
Padgett site, I am familiar. Most information can only be found on the internet, but kucky we have it. At least it provides something more. I have noticed stuff on Tone-Lizard site too.

The 7C seems to be indigenous to Canada and its military.
The 7, 7A, 7B and 7D are US but again were made by a multitude of companies. Those seem to be released versions chronological order.

That unit is a better grade tester than the 800 model I believe. They all need some care and calibration though.

If/when you get the TV-7, tell if you find a manufacturer's name or licensed under indicator. It would be interesting to see what is found (or not found).


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> I've always heard that long plate tubes are more prone to microphonics but I've never had a microphonic Raytheon. Organs are good sources for these tubes, but they are used pretty hard. A guy had an old Wurlitzer that I was going to fix up for him and about half the tubes in it tested below minimum (not to mention that most of the oscillators didn't work). He gave up on it and let me pick some of the tubes. I got some IEC Mullard I63's and those Telefunken tubes like yours. All the RCA and GE tubes were bad. No Raytheon tubes in that one.
> 
> Check this out. I'm putting some of my 300B money back into my hobby. I'm going to pick this up tomorrow. It's a military TV-7B/U tester, and it's one of the testers that was made by Hickok, not just their design. There were several companies that made TV-7 testers. This one looks like it just rolled off the assembly line.



Good grief Alan how many testers do you need ?
If you keep collecting old tube testers with this speed you can open a tube-tester museum in a couple of years 
You could even make it an interactive experience for the public, they get to test an unlabeled tube and then have a chance of winning a price if they can guess the tube type…
Hey you could even have small teaching classes where people bring in their old testers and you fix them together as team work


----------



## GIBSON67

Simple question I have since I have been collection preamp tubes...

I have 2 Mullards I61, and I63 both with copper grid posts, Marked Bxxx and both test good, but there is no flash upon initial warmup. Does this mean the tube is wearing out?
Normal to find some that don't flash? Or possible fakes?


----------



## Inkalen

GIBSON67 said:


> Simple question I have since I have been collection preamp tubes...
> 
> I have 2 Mullards I61, and I63 both with copper grid posts, Marked Bxxx and both test good, but there is no flash upon initial warmup. Does this mean the tube is wearing out?
> Normal to find some that don't flash? Or possible fakes?


Don't think so, some flash some don't...
Actually, tubes only flash from cold starts, so maybe you just keep your house too warm 
AFAIK tubes rarely fail from burned out heaters, so I would not worry and just enjoy the great sound !


----------



## GIBSON67

My other Mullards, EIs and Amperexs do flash, and it was these 2 that didn't, so not my house...

The watermark codes are there and the construction looks the same...I just wonder if they are Japanese Mullards that were faked? But my Mitshu's don't have copper posts which is the reason I asked...


----------



## Inkalen

GIBSON67 said:


> My other Mullards, EIs and Amperexs do flash, and it was these 2 that didn't, so not my house...
> 
> The watermark codes are there and the construction looks the same...I just wonder if they are Japanese Mullards that were faked? But my Mitshu's don't have copper posts which is the reason I asked...


 I have a few Philips tubes and some flash strong some do not. Don't think you can make a call as to whether they are fake based on flashing behavior. Of course you could always post pictures for us to look at.


----------



## GIBSON67

Thanks Inkalen, I feel better already...


----------



## johnfv

GIBSON67 said:


> ...I feel better already...


Speaking of feeling better, you have the best avatars for sure


----------



## MM54

Counting tubes aren't really relevant to guitar amps, but this is still a fantastic article about tubes and Philips.

The making of the E1T


----------



## sccloser

The pop in....hello! Just in the neighborhood and decided to drop by!


Been busy with the band. Booked every weekend for the next 8 weeks. Out of town gigs as well. Starts Saturday! I'm excited. We took 3 weeks off, I got a flashy Tele and a new (to me) LP standard faded to take on the road with my '04 SG and the little 99 US tele. haven't run across many tubes lately, but I'm now sold on mullards in v1 after I lost an amperex (it just got weak).




[/IMG]



[/IMG]


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Good grief Alan how many testers do you need ?
> If you keep collecting old tube testers with this speed you can open a tube-tester museum in a couple of years
> You could even make it an interactive experience for the public, they get to test an unlabeled tube and then have a chance of winning a price if they can guess the tube type…
> Hey you could even have small teaching classes where people bring in their old testers and you fix them together as team work



How many testers do I need? Just one more... always one more.

I actually sold 3 testers last month. Now I've got the Hickok 800, the TV-7, and a B&K 707 and a 747. The 707 tests low, and the 747 had a cap that went nuclear last time I used it. They both need some attention. I just want two good reliable testers so that I can check one against the other, and a nice backup. I can't decide which one to keep. I think the 707 is a better tester than the 747, but the 747's usually bring more money.

Mickey, the TV-7 turned out to be a Forway. I was hoping there would be a Hickok badge on it, but Forway made some of the best TV-7's from what I've read. I had to stop at the office and catch up on some work so I haven't tested it yet.


----------



## solarburn

Way to go on the gigs SC and rip on that Tele for me while you're out there play'n!

Bad ass!


----------



## mickeydg5

Alan, so the TV-7 is a Forway. Well that is the keeper so far. I suggest learn it. Figure out how to maintain and calibrate it, a good learning experience on both testers and tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, it works. I'm going to have to get used to the ranges. The book just gives minimum values. I tested a few 6BQ5's and came up with some interesting results. I tested a new JJ EL84 that came in my Class 5. It tested at 7250 (7500 = new) on the Hickok 800. It tests at 80 on the TV-7. 

I checked a couple of 6BQ5's that lit up the shorts lamp at every position except 4. I was about to throw them away, but they tested good with no shorts on the Hickok. On closer inspection, they both had pin 1 tied to pin 2 internally. One was a Sylvania that was marked 6BQ5 and the other was an RCA that was marked 6BQ5/EL84. I thought that the 7189's were the only ones with the pin 1 to pin 2 connection. What gives? Were they making 7189's and labeling them as 6BQ5's too? 

I'm too tired to ponder it tonight, but I'd like some input from you guys. Are they safe to use? I guess I need to open up the Class 5 and make sure there's no connection on pin 1. That could be a costly mistake if pin 1 is grounded on the socket.

Oh yeah, I also have a couple of Russian Saratov 6P14P military tubes from the 1960's. They were tested at 105 on the B&K 747. On the TV-7 they were around 90. 80-90 must be right at the "new" range.


----------



## mickeydg5

For a 6BQ5, 80 seems about right as the nominal value with a TV-7. Upper 80's sounds good on the 6P14 tubes too, those seem slightly different than actual 6BQ5/EL84 types.

7189A tubes have 1-2 and 6-9 pins connected. Check the 6-9 pins. Are those later tubes. I bet they were producing that design and just labeled them as 6BQ5/EL84.
I would definitely advise all to check internal pin connections and tube socket connections.


----------



## RiverRatt

The RCA is only connected at pin 1 & 2. A Zenith (looks like Sylvania) 6BQ5 is the same way. I'm thinking these are 7189's and not 7189A's.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not have any 6BQ5 tubes. But I found a 8BQ5, same as the 6 but with 8V heater. It has an atom looking symbol on the glass (pretty much gone though). What brand is that? I know that I have seen it before. Anyway the same thing, pins 1 & 2 are connected.

I don't know what to think. None of the manuals show this.


----------



## Inkalen

Mickey,
You seem to be someone who really understand the circuits of amps. 
I just bought 3 tubes that test very low on mutual conductance ~1250 and also have low maximal emissions. In all fairness they were advertized as testing low, so I was not cheated.
As I understand it, in a preamp stage these tubes are sitting in a self equilibrating circuit, and assuming a tube is not totally dead I suppose that irrespective of whether it test high or low, the current flowing through the tube will be almost the same – is that correct? 
Do you know what a typical current through say V1 is with no load? 
As far as I can see from the diagram of a typical guitar amp there is no feedback in the gain stages so if one puts in a tube with lower Gm, then the amplification will be lower. But how much tolerance are there typically in these designs, or to put it differently how low can a tube be and still sound good?
Wow that was nerdy


----------



## mickeydg5

Hi Inkalen

First I do not adhere to advertised readings except in that the sellers readings are consistent in some sort. 1250 umho on what tester? Anyway I take a lot of things into account.

A 12AX7 which has low readings can still have a good bit of life and still be a great tube if all other test are passed satisfactorily. If the tube is worn, has been worked long and hard, then the life will be shortened. As with anything, fatigue of tube parts will lead to breaks, shorts and then it goes pift or pop. As the tube wears the efficiency drops, the characteristics change and as a result, the output drops. So, current and amplification drop with respect.

I do not see it as a tube having typical current, unless you are refering to tube manual and the set conditions as tested and publicated. Current flow depends on the applied circuit.

Military standards set forth defective/bad as being below 65% of nominal good for the tubes we use. A tube can actually be lower than that and still operate and sound fine.
An old 12AX7 with low readings and good life results will still have more amplification than a 12AU7 or 12AY7. Using it is a personal choice. You can run a tube into the ground until death if you want but when you begin to dislike its job performance, it is trash.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> Hi Inkalen
> 
> First I do not adhere to advertised readings except in that the sellers readings are consistent in some sort. 1250 umho on what tester? Anyway I take a lot of things into account.
> 
> A 12AX7 which has low readings can still have a good bit of life and still be a great tube if all other test are passed satisfactorily. If the tube is worn, has been worked long and hard, then the life will be shortened. As with anything, fatigue of tube parts will lead to breaks, shorts and then it goes pift or pop. As the tube wears the efficiency drops, the characteristics change and as a result, the output drops. So, current and amplification drop with respect.
> 
> I do not see it as a tube having typical current, unless you are refering to tube manual and the set conditions as tested and publicated. Current flow depends on the applied circuit.
> 
> Military standards set forth defective/bad as being below 65% of nominal good for the tubes we use. A tube can actually be lower than that and still operate and sound fine.
> An old 12AX7 with low readings and good life results will still have more amplification than a 12AU7 or 12AY7. Using it is a personal choice. You can run a tube into the ground until death if you want but when you begin to dislike its job performance, it is trash.












My homebrew tube tester -a bit more digitally inspired than the typical testers RR dig up under chicken roosts in local barns 

Very slow in action, though, but I can basically measure any parameter I want, although at the moment I have only made a noval socket board. Usually measure Gm at 250V and plate resistance in the range of 100-150V. 

The tubes were 2 pcs Tesla ECC803s and 1 TFK ECC83, so they are as such attractive tubes. The guy claimed they had lots of life left, but they did turn out to be some of the worst performing tubes I have ever tested. Actually he gave me a 5751 for free in the same order and that tested quite a bit stronger!
At least the good news, as I understand it from you, is that these are way above 65% so there should still be life left in them!!!


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice tubes.

Ah, was it you that mentioned the homebrew tester before?
What am I looking at there? Power supplies, signal supply, multimeters for readings?

How exactly are you determining ~1250 umhos?


----------



## RiverRatt

I wondered that, too. Seems like I remember from an earlier post that it involved plotting curves and stuff I forgot how to do 25 years ago.

Chicken roosts? Barns? Really? I do live in Tennessee but we have indoor toilets, wear shoes, have all our teeth, and I've never seen my sister naked nor do I wish to.


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## mickeydg5

I do not look in barns either. That is a place for livestock, hay, tractors and old trucks. But pickers cannot be choosers.  Never know what you might find unless you look.
My testers came from utility, industrial equipment and aeronuatic companies. At least I was not told the the stuff was sitting in the barn out back. 

I actually do not care for most (mass) produced tube testers. Most of them were designed to be the catch-all for the field technician. A better tester can be built at a price. I think that would resemble more of a laboratory tester though. The right equipment and a few equations can give you numbers.

ADD: I did not mean that I do not like them, it is is just that there are a lot of compromises to put a catch-all tester together that a working man could afford.


----------



## MM54

I designed a really awesome tube tester I was going to build, it would tell you all the parameters of the tube running, and I wrote some software for my computer that I could plug the measurements into and it would tell me everything else there was to calculate.

It would have ended up being very expensive, complicated, and more than I needed. Shortly thereafter I bought a B&K 707, lost the designs, and the computer with software on it died. I'm happy with my late 50's emissions tester and early 707 for most anything I run into these days.

Although it would still be nice to plot curves for every 12AX7, EL34, etc in my stash...


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> Nice tubes.
> 
> Ah, was it you that mentioned the homebrew tester before?
> What am I looking at there? Power supplies, signal supply, multimeters for readings?
> 
> How exactly are you determining ~1250 umhos?


 Absolutely right, Power supplies and 2 multimeters and a lot of banana plugs - that's all you need 

 In total 3 power supplies that each delivers one part of the necessary voltages: one for the heater (12,6V-lower blue one-1), one for grid voltage (0V to -2V lower blue one-2) and one for the high voltage anode (100V to 250V top black one). With this setup I can directly measure the transconductance S, the plate resistance Rp and also the gain Mu. Of course there is no need for extra separate measurements of Mu, since that can be calculated from the tube equation (Mu = S x Rp).

Measuring S:
For measuring one triode, I let the tube heat up with around -1.6V at the grid, 250V at the anode and 0V at the cathode. When the tube has stabilized, I take note of the actual grid voltage (left meter) and anode current (right meter), change the grid voltage to about -1.3V, record the values again and repeat this once more with a grid voltage of about -1.1V. This leaves me with 3 datasets of grid voltage and anode currents – if in a lazy mood two sets would actually suffice. Since the tube is being operating in its most linear range, these values are supposed to be on a straight line. I therefore calculate the parameters of this line (linear regression), and the slope is actually the transconductance S of the triode. 
 As an example, the TFK displayed gave these datasets (-1.66V, 1.26mA), (-1.38V, 1.78mA) and (-1.15V, 2.25mA). Calculating the slope of the line this resulted in: S = 1.94mA/V

Measuring Rp:
I lower the anode voltage to 150V, set the grid voltage to 0V and record the anode current. Then lower the anode voltage to 100V and record the anode current again. This leaves me with 2 datasets of anode voltage (150V, 100V) and anode currents. The TFK in the example above gave 2.70mA and 1.56mA. I then calculate the plate resistance:

Rp = (150V - 100V) / (2.70mA – 1.56mA) = 50V / 1.14mA = 50V / 0.00114A = 44kOhms

Calculating Mu:
Using the Tube equation that gives: Mu = S x Rp = 1.94mA/V x 44kOhms = 85

It takes a bit of time to test one tube but at least it gives a good idea of how good the tube is. Btw that is a very nice tube S readings in the high end.
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]


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## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> Chicken roosts? Barns? Really? I do live in Tennessee but we have indoor toilets, wear shoes, have all our teeth, and I've never seen my sister naked nor do I wish to.





mickeydg5 said:


> I do not look in barns either. That is a place for livestock, hay, tractors and old trucks. But pickers cannot be choosers.  Never know what you might find unless you look.
> My testers came from utility, industrial equipment and aeronuatic companies. At least I was not told the the stuff was sitting in the barn out back.


Ooouuppsss - sorry guys - no pun intended 
The last tester you found looked great RR, but some of the previous ones looked to have cloth-insulated wires and enough surface gunk to sink a small fishing boat. But you are right I should not judge just by the looks and hey a real Tube-Aholic cannot be deterred from important matters by a bit of chicken pooh...

Psstt the part about your sister can't be right - is she good looking


----------



## RiverRatt

Inkalen said:


> Ooouuppsss - sorry guys - no pun intended
> The last tester you found looked great RR, but some of the previous ones looked to have cloth-insulated wires and enough surface gunk to sink a small fishing boat. But you are right I should not judge just by the looks and hey a real Tube-Aholic cannot be deterred from important matters by a bit of chicken pooh...
> 
> Psstt the part about your sister can't be right - is she good looking



She was a cheerleader in high school. I think this was made in 1988 or 1989 when she was still in high school.


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen, a couple of things about the home brew tube tester.

What is the brand and model of your multimeters?

Your methods are correct but your process is not.
All readings must come from a specific test set. I mean that the calculations must come from a given test state being all voltages remain constant. It is just like what you see in the specifications of a tube data sheet or manual. You can not sum or average things up while using different voltages. The results are then compared to the industry standards which are publicated in the data sheets and manuals.

At different voltages things change. The transconductance, current and plate resistance will be different for a given set of voltages.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> Inkalen, a couple of things about the home brew tube tester.
> 
> What is the brand and model of your multimeters?
> 
> Your methods are correct but your process is not.
> All readings must come from a specific test set. I mean that the calculations must come from a given test state being all voltages remain constant. It is just like what you see in the specifications of a tube data sheet or manual. You can not sum or average things up while using different voltages. The results are then compared to the industry standards which are publicated in the data sheets and manuals.
> 
> At different voltages things change. The transconductance, current and plate resistance will be different for a given set of voltages.


 Mickey you are absolutely right, I am making approximations with this – well spotted 
When looking at a typical 12AX7 characteristics chart, it is clear that the plate resistance and transconductance is highly dependent on the plate current. A higher current lowers the plate resistance and raises the transconductance whereas the product of the two, i.e. the amplification factor, remains constant. So to get highly precise values I really should do measurements at a constant plate current, however, that is a bit in-convenient in practice. I have therefore chosen a testing regime where the plate current is typically between 1-3 mA. That is not perfect but not too bad either.

Trust me the multimeters (Metex 4650) have specs that far exceed this purpose, so potential errors are from the testing regime. If you have suggestions for at better regime I will be happy to test a couple of tubes and compare the data.
I am also interested in knowing more about how exactly a typical tube tester actually test transconductance – do you really think they will be more precise?


----------



## Inkalen

RiverRatt said:


> She was a cheerleader in high school. I think this was made in 1988 or 1989 when she was still in high school.


Cheerleader... afaik that means good looking and further a good dancer


----------



## mickeydg5

The damn meter manual is in German. You expect me to read that!? That is a decent meter. Well I can make out the tolerances. From what the manual states your readings can be up to 8% off. Still, with an average taken into consideration, that is pretty good.

No, no, no. I do not think I was fully understood about the procedure being incorrect.

I you are going to be able to compare your readings against someone elses readings or data specification then you have to use standard setup voltages as published in the tube data specifications.

plate 250V, grid -2V, filament 12.6V
and
plate 100V, grid -1V, filament 12.6V
and
You would have to shift +/- 10% at those grid voltages and get an average for S (Gm).

This is required to compare the S (Gm) or Rp or Mu.

Also, you do not use a signal. So the test demonstrated are static using the grid shift method. Dynamic transconductance test are more suitable and better approximate operating conditions.

Hope I come across ok and this helps.


----------



## 61rocker

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Cody, I haven't heard from you in forever!
> 
> Yeah, plenty of ideas... what's your budget? Are you looking for NOS or current production? I might have a quad of Ruby EL34's - I haven't checked them against each other to see if they are close. I really like the Groove Tubes EL34M's. When I had my DSL50 I switched back and forth between a pair of RFT's and a pair of the EL34M's. There wasn't much of a difference at all. I left the GT tubes in the head when I sold it and the dude who bought it loved the tone. If you're wanting to get some old glass, Tesla or RFT is going to be your best bet.


 
Ah yezzz.....good ol' Teslas and RFTs......


----------



## 61rocker

_Awright Rawkerzz....Hope everyone is doing well.....I posted this on a thread when I got it, but I picked up this '03 DSL 100watter recently at GC in Little Rock....now I know what all the buzz is on these killer amps...I threw my vintage Teslas in the power section and settled on these for the preamp tubes.....V1 The Mazda Gold Pin (this tube for me is the best V1 in all my Marshalls, wish I could afford a couple of more)....a '58 RCA Black Plate in V2, V3 a strong vintage Mullard, and an Amperex in the PI......I learned to back off the Prescense on this amp, and found the sweet spot....oh mama.....and the Lead Channel for boost rips it....I stopped using a boost pedal, tho I am told these amps take to pedals very nicely.....SC, happy to see you are booked up, it's been a while since I played out, but I've been buying gear, including a nicely broken in mid 90s 1960AV.....great tone....warm...Peace rawkstas..._


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## mickeydg5

*61R*
nice amp, definitely nice tubes.


----------



## 61rocker

_I owe my tube selections to the great folks here......I lucked out on the Teslas, they came in the 2210 I own, but if I never came here, I may not have ever kept them.....BTW...I threw the Siemans I have in the JCM800...._


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> The damn meter manual is in German. You expect me to read that!? That is a decent meter. Well I can make out the tolerances. From what the manual states your readings can be up to 8% off. Still, with an average taken into consideration, that is pretty good.
> 
> No, no, no. I do not think I was fully understood about the procedure being incorrect.
> 
> I you are going to be able to compare your readings against someone elses readings or data specification then you have to use standard setup voltages as published in the tube data specifications.
> 
> plate 250V, grid -2V, filament 12.6V
> and
> plate 100V, grid -1V, filament 12.6V
> and
> You would have to shift +/- 10% at those grid voltages and get an average for S (Gm).
> 
> This is required to compare the S (Gm) or Rp or Mu.
> 
> Also, you do not use a signal. So the test demonstrated are static using the grid shift method. Dynamic transconductance test are more suitable and better approximate operating conditions.
> 
> Hope I come across ok and this helps.







Mickey - thanks a lot for your comments - that sure is very helpful 

The above typical 12AX7 relationship is the one to which I did not pay sufficient attention when I started testing with my homebrew tester some time ago 


Originally, I was primarily focused at measuring transconductance at the right voltage (250V), and since the average transfer characteristics are quite un-linear at low plate currents, I wanted to measure in a nice linear range. Hence I chose to measure at grid voltages in the range of 1-1.6V with an average plate current of ~2mA for most tubes. 
The measurements I have made are of course as such fully correct, but as you said they cannot be directly compared to the typical specified value of 1600mS. Looking at the graph above it appears a new 12AX7 should have in the vicinity of 2100mS under the conditions I have used, which incidentally is what I have seen regularly


But jeeezzz I now see that it is really not that simple comparing transconductance between tubes since even small deviations in plate currents will dramatically affect the recorded values. 


Since I have control over all parameters, perhaps a better way would be to adjust plate voltage for each tube such that Vg of -2V always give 1.2mA current, and then take readings within +/- 10% grid voltage. That way transconductance measurements are at least obtained at similar plate currents and then maybe more comparable!?


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen, I see you are referencing to the GE 12AX7A data sheet. That graph of course is for 100V and 12.6V respectively.

Yes, a little change makes a dramatic difference in readings. That is why manufactures use laboratory testers for calibration and standards. You are ball parking it hoping to get between 5 & 10% accuracy.

I see what you are doing. It has to be done consistently. You can set your own target for comparing your tubes and creating a calibration or bogey tube. But at the end of the day, your bogey tube must equal 1600 Gm, ~62.5k Rp, ~100 Mu and ~1.2mA Ip at the published 250V Eb, -2V (average) Eg and 12.6V Ef as well as your own target goals.


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen said:


> Since I have control over all parameters, perhaps a better way would be to adjust plate voltage for each tube such that Vg of -2V always give 1.2mA current, and then take readings within +/- 10% grid voltage. That way transconductance measurements are at least obtained at similar plate currents and then maybe more comparable!?


 
No, I would not keep the current constant. The plate, grid and filament have to remain constant except for the +/- 10% variation in grid shift.

Calculate all (and by all I mean everything that has been mentioned) at the -2v grid condition, then at the -10% grid and then the +10% grid. Use all those numbers to determine average.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> Inkalen, I see you are referencing to the GE 12AX7A data sheet. That graph of course is for 100V and 12.6V respectively.
> 
> Yes, a little change makes a dramatic difference in readings. That is why manufactures use laboratory testers for calibration and standards. You are ball parking it hoping to get between 5 & 10% accuracy.
> 
> I see what you are doing. It has to be done consistently. You can set your own target for comparing your tubes and creating a calibration or bogey tube. But at the end of the day, your bogey tube must equal 1600 Gm, ~62.5k Rp, ~100 Mu and ~1.2mA Ip at the published 250V Eb, -2V (average) Eg and 12.6V Ef as well as your own target goals.







He he - good guess that it was from the GE datasheet

I meant to show the 250V one, here it is. The interesting thing is, though, that above a certain plate voltage threshold the transconductance values 
appear not to be terribly dependent on this voltage, but still highly dependent on plate current. These two graphs at least look very similar to me !

That is why I am thinking that perhaps I should focus on keeping currents in the same range instead of plate voltage - that could potentially give more comparable values...


----------



## mickeydg5

Changing plate voltages will change the tubes characteristics, even if slightly.
The plate current is what is supposed to be measured. That is the whole idea.

I understand that it is mostly relative, but the more you deviate from the norm, the greater the chance of increasing the percentage of inaccuracy.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> No, I would not keep the current constant. The plate, grid and filament have to remain constant except for the +/- 10% variation in grid shift.
> 
> Calculate all (and by all I mean everything that has been mentioned) at the -2v grid condition, then at the -10% grid and then the +10% grid. Use all those numbers to determine average.


Sorry was working on my post when you wrote this !

Actually, the 3 measurements I take only give one Gm value, as I use all three for liniear regression.


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen said:


> Sorry was working on my post when you wrote this !
> 
> Actually, the 3 measurements I take only give one Gm value, as I use all three for liniear regression.


 
Nope, I saw three. All within a about a 10% margin.

ADD: Well at least this is about a preamp tube. 
I hope people are interested in this subject.


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> The damn meter manual is in German. You expect me to read that!? That is a decent meter. Well I can make out the tolerances. From what the manual states your readings can be up to 8% off. Still, with an average taken into consideration, that is pretty good.


Btw you gave me a veritable chock with this at first 
My multimeters were quite expensive when I bought them, which in all fairness is some time ago. Looked for the datasheet you mentioned as I can read a bit German, but only found one in Polish - and that it a bit difficult to read 
The specs were quite clear though, and I think you mean 0.8% instead - which is actually only for some of the worst cases. The low voltage and currents I am measuring have +/- 0.05% and 0.3% precisions!

You sure had me worried for a while


----------



## Inkalen

mickeydg5 said:


> Nope, I saw three. All within a about a 10% margin.
> 
> ADD: Well at least this is about a preamp tube.
> I hope people are interested in this subject.


Perhaps a bit on the nerdy side with details but preamp tubes it is...

This thread has been far about - of course guitars but also cars, guns, local pubs and not the least boobs - so nerdy stuff must be ok also 

EDIT: Thanks a lot for your inputs Mickey - you have really given me some food for thought !!!


----------



## mickeydg5

Inkalen said:


> Btw you gave me a veritable chock with this at first
> My multimeters were quite expensive when I bought them, which in all fairness is some time ago. Looked for the datasheet you mentioned as I can read a bit German, but only found one in Polish - and that it a bit difficult to read
> The specs were quite clear though, and I think you mean 0.8% instead - which is actually only for some of the worst cases. The low voltage and currents I am measuring have +/- 0.05% and 0.3% precisions!
> 
> You sure had me worried for a while


 
Your meter is pretty good for a handheld. I do not know German from Polish so forgive me. I am sorry though. I had figured you were using AC signal but you are doing the grid shift thing. The DC accuracies are much better. I was determining worst case as you said. I would estimate your readings and calculations to be more under the 3-4% (worst case) range with all DC measurements provided all is good. Just as good or better than any technician tube tester.


----------



## brp

Hi everybody.
Thought I better drop in and bump this thread for my 2000th post.

I hope everyone's doing good. I haven't been playing much due to no time but making some time for it this weekend.
Might even roll a tube or two, although pretty happy with the tones I'm getting from my NOS acquisitions from you guys.


----------



## Inkalen

2000 ! That sure is a lot of posts - I'm still working at reaching 100


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> 2000 ! That sure is a lot of posts - I'm still working at reaching 100



HEy Inkalen, I just got 3 Mazda valves ( Ecc83s ) one is an RFT, the other 2 look like brimar construction but have no indication that they are on the bottle, i.e. no date codes in the usual Brimar way.

Do you know about Mazdas? They both are BVA marked made in England, in fact i'll grab some pics and post then up, I've not tried them yet.


----------



## Inkalen

SpiritOfTheAge said:


> HEy Inkalen, I just got 3 Mazda valves ( Ecc83s ) one is an RFT, the other 2 look like brimar construction but have no indication that they are on the bottle, i.e. no date codes in the usual Brimar way.
> 
> Do you know about Mazdas? They both are BVA marked made in England, in fact i'll grab some pics and post then up, I've not tried them yet.


 Hey Spirit,
Well they obviously look very Philips like although I am not sure I see any seams ! I have a couple of Brimars, but they are of the box plate type, so don't know for sure whether Brimar made some that look so much Philips style.


Another British option would be Thorn AEI (Ediswan), they made Philips style tubes for relabeling. I have an Adzam tube, which incidentally reads Mazda backwards, made by Thorn AEI. If you can find an etched code starting with “I” then you are sure.
Otherwise, we need RR to join, he can usually spot a tube by its nipple


----------



## RiverRatt

I have studied nipples for all of my adult life and most of my adolescent years as well. They've always been a passionate subject for me. I really like the ones that are kinda cone-shaped and pointy.

Those two on the right do look like Brimars to me as well. 

I just got in from doing some tube hunting. I had a pretty good outing. I picked up two NOS NIB RCA labeled 12DW7's, a NOS NIB RCA 7247 (same tube as 12DW7), three used RCA labeled GE 7247's, a 1962 Mullard Blackburn EL84 (looks used - in a GE box), a NOS NIB 1968 Mullard Blackburn CV378/GZ37, a pair of Sylvania tall bottle 6L6GC's, a new Tung-Sol 6V6GT, A GE 5Y3GT, and a few oddball tubes thrown in. The guy who I got the GZ37, 6L6GC's 6V6GT's and the 5Y3 from also had a 1968 Dynaco ST120A power amp. I got all that stuff for $60. The rest of them I bought in a little antique store for $5. Not $5 each, just $5 total. This guy says he has a couple of big boxes of tubes and he's going to put them aside for me when he digs them out and give me a call.


----------



## MM54

Nice score RR


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> Nice score RR



Damn Skippy!


----------



## RiverRatt

You know the coolest thing? While we were hitting the thrift stores, I found a t-shirt that says "River Rat" on it and has a picture of a rat wearing a lifejacket standing on a dock drinking something. I had to buy it.

Got some literature, too. I got a copy of the Fender Amp Book, The History of Marshall: The Illustrated Story of 'The Sound of Rock'" and the Dan Torres book, Inside Tube Amps. I can't tell if the Dan Torres book is signed or if someone was just messin' around.


----------



## MM54

Very cool. I wore a shirt today that has the silhouette of an old tube radio viewed from the back and has text really big underneath it "Tubes." It's a neat shirt.

On a side note, any decision on how much you want for that fluke  ?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll send it to you and let you decide. I really don't have much in it and it's an old piece. I have it weeded out of the pile and it's waiting to ship. I had a rough week - I worked from 8 a.m. to 3 a.m. Tuesday, and I got home at like 11:30 p.m. on Wednesday night. I'm just now getting over that. I jumped the wife on Thursday night and bought some tubes today, and I don't have to work again until Tuesday. If the holiday weekend continues in that fashion, I'll probably be in a Fluke-shipping mood next week.


----------



## MM54

Sounds good  Let me know what the shipping costs and I'll get it to you [most likely] later that day.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Damn Alan, sounds like you had a successful hunt! I'm drooling for a few of those...Tung-Sol 6V6GT, A GE 5Y3GT...

I just got done applying the tweed to my amp project... came out OK for a first timer. This thing is going to be very cool when I get done (hopefully all parts will be in tweed tomorrow, then I can Clear coat it)

Here is part of it mocked up...


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, that looks good! If I can make one suggestion, paint the interior black before you put on the tweed. It'll look factory.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Thanks Alan, maybe I can still sneak it in there...


----------



## Inkalen

66 galaxie said:


> Damn Alan, sounds like you had a successful hunt! I'm drooling for a few of those...Tung-Sol 6V6GT, A GE 5Y3GT...
> 
> I just got done applying the tweed to my amp project... came out OK for a first timer. This thing is going to be very cool when I get done (hopefully all parts will be in tweed tomorrow, then I can Clear coat it)
> 
> Here is part of it mocked up...


That looks really nice - absolutely well done 
One question - Any specific reason for having the amp upside down, or have you made it so it also looks equally good flipped ?


----------



## 66 galaxie

Inkalen said:


> That looks really nice - absolutely well done
> One question - Any specific reason for having the amp upside down, or have you made it so it also looks equally good flipped ?



Thanks 
I have no idea why its upside down... I think the guy that built it had a whoops moment, and I just rolled with it. 
I suppose I could flip it over and it would look cool, except now the tweed will run the wrong way


----------



## RiverRatt

What tubes are you running in it?


----------



## Inkalen

RR was looking at these - what do you think - EI?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/200763861098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like Ei to me.


----------



## Inkalen

Thought so !!!

Bought 4 tubes from a Spanish seller the other day, will post some pics when I get them since they have an interesting design. To save a bit on shipping cost/tube I also started bidding a bit on a pair of Dario tubes. However, these turned out to end at a price way higher than I ever dreamed of - what is so special about these to warrant such a price?
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/261022415976?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

Inkalen said:


> RR was looking at these - what do you think - EI?
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/200763861098?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649



I managed to snag a sleeve of 5 EI NIB sometime last year for £5 and just recently there was a seller selling lots of 5 NOS EI (VHT branded) for £20, so not such a good of a deal as the £5 deal but still pretty good at £4 a valve.

I've got a few older EI with dual getter supports which I've not seen before, I've read a lot about them being unreliable, especially later production ones but so far I have not found this to be true.

Just out of interest I'm currently running a humble RFT in my main amp as its just such a great sounding valve, A/B it against a really nice old Mullard, a Tele and a bunch of others and it just stood out as the best sounding valve of the lot, go figure!


----------



## 66 galaxie

RiverRatt said:


> What tubes are you running in it?



Alan, I'm running a Sovtec 6SL7 pre, a Tung Sol 6V6 GTA power, and a CBS 5U4GB rectifier.
The guy that built it gave me some crazy thing to try that replaces the rectifier tube. I guess it will give it more voltage or something? I think it's going to add some hair to it.






I threw a 75W Celestion in it last night for kicks, it sounded good


----------



## mickeydg5

Referencing the Dario 12AX7 auction-
All I can say is someone wanted those tubes badly.
But some sites put them up for sale at even more.


----------



## RiverRatt

66 galaxie said:


> Alan, I'm running a Sovtec 6SL7 pre, a Tung Sol 6V6 GTA power, and a CBS 5U4GB rectifier.
> The guy that built it gave me some crazy thing to try that replaces the rectifier tube. I guess it will give it more voltage or something? I think it's going to add some hair to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I threw a 75W Celestion in it last night for kicks, it sounded good



It's just a bridge rectifier built into an octal base. Four 1N4007 diodes and a little solder. It might make the amp a little tighter but you probably won't hear much difference. 

I've never used a G12T-75 in a combo. I didn't have any problems with them in the two cabs I had that used them. If they are well broken-in, they have a nice classic rock tone IMO.


----------



## mickeydg5

66 galaxie said:


> Alan, I'm running a Sovtec 6SL7 pre, a Tung Sol 6V6 GTA power, and a CBS 5U4GB rectifier.
> The guy that built it gave me some crazy thing to try that replaces the rectifier tube. I guess it will give it more voltage or something? I think it's going to add some hair to it.


 
The soild state rectifier, T-SSR01, will deliver more voltage to the amplifier.

If you want softer response, more sag and bluesier sound then use the 5U4. It should give about 40 - 50 volts less to the amplifier, depending on the power supply.

Try both, see what you think in that amp.


----------



## 66 galaxie

^^ Cool. Thanks for the info guys! I appreciate it. 

This little bugger sounds pretty good right now.. it's a blast to roll tubes in


----------



## brp

I know I might have asked this before but anyone here have any 12AY7's?
I remember Allan saying he didn't... maybe Marty but I know he's in transit or at least preparing to be... anyone else?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

brp said:


> I know I might have asked this before but anyone here have any 12AY7's?
> I remember Allan saying he didn't... maybe Marty but I know he's in transit or at least preparing to be... anyone else?



I have one, are you looking to buy one?


----------



## brp

I kinda am yes, thanks for asking.
Jeez you're in the UK though I see. I kinda just want it for an experiment. May or may not be worth shipping from over there 
I'll keep it in mind and see how my pursuit and interest develops. For the right price, I'm looking to grab one without spending too much just to satisfy a tone curiosity.


----------



## RiverRatt

A 6072 is a really close sub for a 12AY7. I'll dig through my little tubes and see if I have any.


----------



## brp

Cool, thanks man.
No incompatibility issues to be worried about with the 6072 then? I'm looking to use it as a power tube in place of a 12ax7 in a single 12ax7 power section (Blackheart BH1h).


----------



## RiverRatt

The 6072 is really close to a 12AY7. I don't think you'd have any problems. I'm half asleep and not really inclined to dig out data sheets, but if you're replacing a 12AX7 you might start with a 5751. It's the closest family member to a 12AX7 and is a great tone tube. Blackstar uses a 12BH7A for an output tube. It's a close swap for a 12AT7. I've got a bunch of 12AV7's that are just under a 12AY7 gain-wise. I'd be glad to let you try some 12BH7A's or 12AV7's. Check the data sheets and do your homework first though.


----------



## brp

Cool info man, thanks!
Ya "just under a 12AY7 gain-wise" might be just the ticket too. Trying to get a little more headroom before break up out of this thing. With a 12AX7 it starts to break up pretty much immediately upon turning up the single knob. So a 12AY7 was recommended in this amp to address this.


----------



## Snakeface

I found some NOS Mullard 12ax7's, not reissues...the seller is asking 40$ for 2 tubes...I never tried NOS tubes in my Jubilee or JVM...what can I expect from them compared to a JJ ? is the price too high or a good deal ?


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a great deal if they are strong tubes, almost low enough to take a gamble on either way. Does the seller offer a return policy or have test scores? Also, there are several revisions of the Mullard ECC83/12AX7. Mullard is one of the most reliable companies for listing the type code and the date code on the tube. My favorite is the mC1 version (mC is the type, 1 is the revision #) with long plates. They were made from the late 1950's to 1960, have long plates, and are some of the smoothest tubes ever to grace a Marshall. Next in the line is the I61 which was made in the very early 1960's. It had short plates and isn't a bad sounding tube, but they are almost as rare as the long plates. The next version is the I63 which is the least favorite of the line for me. They are still hell and above the JJ ECC83.

To generalize, going from JJ's to real Mullards you'll notice more definition, smoother highs, GREAT low mids (which is where I live), and you'll be more popular with chicks and other guitar players will despise you because your tone will be so much better than theirs.

That's pretty much it. I made up the part about chicks and other guitar players.


----------



## Landshark

Hi all! I recetly came back from the dead and came back to the forum.  I now am the proud owner of a Jet City JCA20H amp head and I have a few NOS preamp tubes here from my TSL tube rolling days... hoping I can get some info on what to put where in this. Jet City amp. I currently have 3 preamp tubes in the head itself, all tube signal path. Tubes I'm working with are an RCA Mullard (30-31), Phillips E. H. (30-30), Amperex (28-29), and JAN Sylvania (28-28). I was thinking maybe the Amperex or the JAN in V1, Phillips in V2, and Mullard in V3. I also have a few high gain JJ's and whatever the stock tubes are (Chinese I think). Any info or tips would be awesome!


----------



## Landshark

I also understand this isn't a Marshall amp but hope you guys can make an exception.


----------



## mickeydg5

Landshark said:


> I also understand this isn't a Marshall amp but hope you guys can make an exception.


 
Kind of slow lately.

I am thinking that most would say Mullard or Amperex in V1, Philips in V2 and Sylvania in V3. Rollem and see what you like best. Maybe just try out or keep the JJ and Chinese stuff in V3.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, definitely the Amperex or the Mullard in V1. If the amp is too bright, try the Mullard. The Amperex is a brighter-sounding tube and might help if the tone is a little dark.

I had a JCA20H for a few weeks. I loved the tone but ultimately I decided to take it back and get the Tweaker 15. The JCA20H is a great sounding head and it'll do heavy Marshall tones really well, but I was looking for something with a little more versatility. 

One thing I always meant to try was running a pair of those Saratov 6P14P tubes in it. They are basically a ruggedized EL84 and have a little more headroom before break-up. They can handle more voltage on the plates than an EL84 too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I thought I would have been moved by now. I had a house under contract and I thought I was getting a real good deal. I had asked about a creek that ran through the neighbor hood and my realtor gave me a lot of short answers. I called the city engineer up and found out that the house was in a serious flood plain. I was really upset with my realtor. He has sold houses for 30 years in Muskogee and he knew the house was in a flood plain.

Anyway, I had to make a few more trips to Oklahoma, but I finally found a place with a new roof, new heat and air, all appliances stay including a huge double door refrigerator that is less than 2 years old and a matching pair of nearly new washer and dryer. Hot water heater is new as well. The houses in the neighborhood go for up to $150,000. I got this place for $80,500. It was a steal. The old lady who owned it is in a nursing home and she was about out of money. She had lowered the price several times. She accepted my offer which was an additional $5000 lower than what she was currently asking. The house is a little outdated inside, but that can be rectified. There was no young kids living in the house, so the walls and stuff are free of crayon and other shit. My monthly payment is going to be lower than what I am currently paying in rent. Real good neighborhood as well. That's a big plus. I looked at some places that once you stepped out in the back yard about six or seven dogs started barking, or there were some kids screaming and yelling in an adjoining backyard. Another big plus is the taxes on the house are only $366 a year. It's a win-win. I'm supposed to close on July 18.


----------



## 66 galaxie

^^ Congrats on the new pad Marty. Hope things go more smoothly for you from here on out...


----------



## Lowlife

Sounds excellent Marty, of course with a 1½ year old toddler I'd prefer the noisy kids, so he wouldn't get bored


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Wow ...are houses ever cheap in the USA , an average 1200 - 1500 sq.ft house here is like 300,000 or more ( No Bull Shit !) and that's not for a new home !


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I thought I would have been moved by now. I had a house under contract and I thought I was getting a real good deal. I had asked about a creek that ran through the neighbor hood and my realtor gave me a lot of short answers. I called the city engineer up and found out that the house was in a serious flood plain. I was really upset with my realtor. He has sold houses for 30 years in Muskogee and he knew the house was in a flood plain.
> 
> Anyway, I had to make a few more trips to Oklahoma, but I finally found a place with a new roof, new heat and air, all appliances stay including a huge double door refrigerator that is less than 2 years old and a matching pair of nearly new washer and dryer. Hot water heater is new as well. The houses in the neighborhood go for up to $150,000. I got this place for $80,500. It was a steal. The old lady who owned it is in a nursing home and she was about out of money. She had lowered the price several times. She accepted my offer which was an additional $5000 lower than what she was currently asking. The house is a little outdated inside, but that can be rectified. There was no young kids living in the house, so the walls and stuff are free of crayon and other shit. My monthly payment is going to be lower than what I am currently paying in rent. Real good neighborhood as well. That's a big plus. I looked at some places that once you stepped out in the back yard about six or seven dogs started barking, or there were some kids screaming and yelling in an adjoining backyard. Another big plus is the taxes on the house are only $366 a year. It's a win-win. I'm supposed to close on July 18.



Sounds like a great find. Hope it goes through for you. Good thing you found out the other was in a flood plain.


----------



## mickeydg5

Damn realtors. They mainly worry about the quick buck and get paid way too much. You know when they do not sell within a reasonable time, you should be able to back charge them and their company; legalized con-artist some of them and very bad for the housing market inflation.

Marty, glad it seems that you found a better place. And buying is more of an investment.


----------



## brp

HOT TUBES 70 said:


> Wow ...are houses ever cheap in the USA , an average 1200 - 1500 sq.ft house here is like 300,000 or more ( No Bull Shit !) and that's not for a new home !



Ya, but... being in Vancouver I don't want to hear no one is Sask. complaining about their housing prices! 

You're lucky to get a 1 bdrm condo for 300k here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Homes in Canada are higher, because they use more insulation.

If I had 300K as a budget on a place, I could get a huge place on 5 acres. Of course, I am getting older and I don't want to mow 5 acres or pay to heat and cool a huge house. This house actually has two living rooms and is plenty big for me. Buying the cheapest house in the neighborhood is a quick way to make money down the road. As I said, this place originally listed at 98K and the price was dropped over time. I just had a professional home inspection done and they were only able to find a few minor problems. I am going to have the carpet cleaned. 

I am moving in that area as I have always loved eastern Oklahoma. If you look at a map, you will see that the eastern part is called, "Green Country." Starting with Grand Lake up in the northeast, there are many lakes that continue down towards the south. I want to do more hunting and fishing and this is a real nice area for that. Lots of government land for hunting and within 25 miles of Muskogee are hundreds of places to fish. Muskogee is just south of three major Oklahoma rivers. One of the nicest lakes in the area is Tenkiller. It is probably the clearest lake in Oklahoma. Down by the dam the water is around 165 foot deep. Then just south of Muskogee is Eufala. This is a huge lake that stretches south over several counties. Then there is Lake Hudson, Robert Kerr and Webber Falls. I can smell the crappie, perch and catfish on the skillet right now.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Homes in Canada are higher, because they use more insulation.
> 
> If I had 300K as a budget on a place, I could get a huge place on 5 acres. Of course, I am getting older and I don't want to mow 5 acres or pay to heat and cool a huge house. This house actually has two living rooms and is plenty big for me. Buying the cheapest house in the neighborhood is a quick way to make money down the road. As I said, this place originally listed at 98K and the price was dropped over time. I just had a professional home inspection done and they were only able to find a few minor problems. I am going to have the carpet cleaned.
> 
> I am moving in that area as I have always loved eastern Oklahoma. If you look at a map, you will see that the eastern part is called, "Green Country." Starting with Grand Lake up in the northeast, there are many lakes that continue down towards the south. I want to do more hunting and fishing and this is a real nice area for that. Lots of government land for hunting and within 25 miles of Muskogee are hundreds of places to fish. Muskogee is just south of three major Oklahoma rivers. One of the nicest lakes in the area is Tenkiller. It is probably the clearest lake in Oklahoma. Down by the dam the water is around 165 foot deep. Then just south of Muskogee is Eufala. This is a huge lake that stretches south over several counties. Then there is Lake Hudson, Robert Kerr and Webber
> Falls. I can smell the crappie, perch and catfish on the skillet right now.



All this makes me want to go camping for some reason. Been to long! You have a lot of great spots to check out and enjoy. I love the out doors and being out in it. Mountain biking is my thing. I see a lot of beautiful country doing it. Excellent find for you Marty.


----------



## RiverRatt

What do you guys think about this deal? I'm not getting much response anywhere else. 

I have an Ampeg VL1002 half stack on hold at a friend's shop. It's waiting for an impedance selector switch, otherwise it's good to go. I can pick it up for $500. I didn't get into the back of the amp, but I do know it comes with a quad of RFT EL34's. I don't know what the pre's are - judging from the time period it'll probably be either Chinese or Ei. I'm pretty sure the cab comes with V30's.

So what do you think? No-brainer?


----------



## brp

Sure seems like a great deal. With the 4 V30's and 4 RFT EL34's (provided they're all good), the rest is almost like gravy, Am I right?


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> Sure seems like a great deal. With the 4 V30's and 4 RFT EL34's (provided they're all good), the rest is almost like gravy, Am I right?



Yeah, you're right. It is a great sounding amp; probably my favorite Lee Jackson design. I can't wait to give it a good workout. I hope all those tubes are good... that would be a kick in the ass if the EL34's are shot. I wonder if I can take my tube tester up there and go through them? If I sold the RFT's they would probably pay for half the cost of the amp, then I could put in a cheap quad of GTEL34M's. That's a tough decision though. I'm afraid it wouldn't be long before I'd be wanting another set of RFT's. I'm really anxious to see what's in the preamp. Since the amp was made in 1991 they will probably be Chinese Rubys or Ei. I don't know what SLM's tube of choice was back then. 

My dad bought me an old radio for $25 that's just loaded with Valvo tubes, just not anything I can use. It's really cool though. It's a Metz 304 Export model made in Germany in 1952. Anything that uses an eye tube for a pilot lamp is automatically cool.


----------



## AC_inacornfield

Can anyone recomend some tubes that would go well with the JMP-1 preamp? I'm looking for something that has lots of gain if I need it. And it also has to be nice and tight too nothing loose or muddy. Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

You won't get much of a difference in gain replacing preamp tubes. The standard Shuguang 12AX7 is about as hot as they come and you might could get an online tube retailer to hand-pick some really hot ones for you. NOS Ei tubes are still pretty reasonable and they can be a little on the hot side. The absolute highest-testing 12AX7s I have personally had are Raytheon military JRP-12AX7's, followed closely by Tungsrams. Of course identical tubes from any manufacturer can vary quite a bit but those two are pretty consistently hot. The Chinese tubes would be the cheapest option. Groove tubes puts together a high-gain preamp tube kit but I couldn't tell you much about it. They are just hand-picked current production tubes.

Now, about that Confederate cashbox of gold coins...


----------



## Marshall Mann

Hey guys,

Been a while since I posted in here, I jope you are all doing well!

Saw this and had to post it. Currently at $1009.00 ($504.50 each)!

Telefunken ECC803S OldStock 12AX7 ECC 803S | eBay

Item 170867397493


----------



## brp

Jeebus!


----------



## RiverRatt

Dudes and dude-ettes, I got the Ampeg VL1002 today! The first thing I did was take the back off the head and see what I was dealing with. I found seven Sovtek 12AX7WA preamp tubes, probably the worst preamp tube ever made. These tall bottles more than made up for it though. I'm going to stick some Telefunkens and Mullards in the preamp and leave the RFT EL34's right where they are! I have to fix the impedance selector before I can fire it up, but it promises to be a religious experience!


----------



## johnfv

Looks awesome Allan! The last big Ampeg I ever played was my old V4, I'd love to hear your Ampeg rig.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Looks awesome Allan! The last big Ampeg I ever played was my old V4, I'd love to hear your Ampeg rig.



So would I! 

I'm not powering it up until the impedance selector is fixed. I'm thinking I'll probably just bridge the 16 ohm output since the cab is 16 ohms. I just have to figure out which is the 16 ohm tap. 

This isn't like the old Ampeg amps. St. Louis Music bought the Ampeg brand back around 1992 and Lee Jackson designed their guitar amps.

This thing is badass. Built-in attenuation, self-biasing with either EL34's or 6550's, and the usual Lee Jackson hot-rodded Marshall tweaks. It should sound like a JCM800 on steroids. The cab is supposed to be loaded with Vintage 30's. I haven't had it apart yet but that's next on my list. I need to make sure that is indeed still a 16 ohm cabinet before I plug into it.

John, you need to send me your mailing address. I promised you a GTEL34M tube for your Pico and I never did get it sent. It's still sitting at the office. Shoot me a PM and I'll get it to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Them East Germans made a lot of blank tubes. Remember that website I posted here about all the brands that used RFT EL34's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah. I remember that. These are the real deal, too. I think it's pretty cool that I bought a half-stack for $500 and the tubes are worth almost half that alone! The only regrets are that I didn't hang onto that quad of Mullard XF2's before I got this 100 watter. I'm going to go open the cabinet and make sure it has Vintage 30's in it. I'm ready to see what this bad boy can do.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Them East Germans made a lot of blank tubes. Remember that website I posted here about all the brands that used RFT EL34's?


 
Was it the www.jogis-roehrenbude.de site? I know of this one.


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't remember what the website was, but I'm remembering why I've been looking for one of these amps since I sold that one back in the 1990's. This amp sounds damned good at 1 a.m. volumes and it just gets better the louder you crank it. Channel one is pretty much a standard JCM800 tone with its own master volume and reverb control, and it sounds like a badass Marshall with the RFT's behind it. I've got to find a set of 6550's to try in it as well. Anyway, channel two picks up where one leaves off. There's a preamp volume, a gain control, and a master volume and reverb level on this channel too. The attenuator switch works on both channels, and basically adds a PPIMV and a presence control for either channel. Channel two also has a 5-position mid shift switch that goes from scooped to in-your-face. I know it's a more complicated amp than a lot of people like, but there are so many tone-shaping options on this amp, it's just badass any way you look at it. I loaded everything up through V3 with some old GE's and a Sylvania. V1 is a Tele smooth plate and V2 is a Mullard I61. I really need to record some clips. I loved this amp back in the 1990's and around 20 years later it still kicks ass.


----------



## solarburn

Nice score Alan. Can't wait to hear it delivers. Fuck'n Sovtec P-AMPERS! Awesome on the RFT's. Now find that 16ohm tap and lets see if it's a ripper...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe! Haven't seen you here in forever. I'm learning to tame the beast. Channel one is basically a Marhsall 2203. I've been keeping the preamp volume low and cranking those RFT's and it's righteous. Flame my ass if you want but it sounds more like the Marshall sound I've been looking for than either the DSL or the Vintage Modern.

I was wrong about the cab. I wasn't misled, I just didn't know that they made one without Celestions. I'm going to be looking at a set of WGS speakers probably. Anything to replace the SLM Electronics Acoustic Lab speakers with the 1 oz. magnet and all would be super. If anyone has cleaned out a 4x12 let me know. I'd rather have T75's than these things - they look like Chinese Eminence speakers. That would make sense as St. Louis Music was in bed with Eminence back then.


----------



## brp

This is the head, right?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe! Haven't seen you here in forever. I'm learning to tame the beast. Channel one is basically a Marhsall 2203. I've been keeping the preamp volume low and cranking those RFT's and it's righteous. Flame my ass if you want but it sounds more like the Marshall sound I've been looking for than either the DSL or the Vintage Modern.
> 
> I was wrong about the cab. I wasn't misled, I just didn't know that they made one without Celestions. I'm going to be looking at a set of WGS speakers probably. Anything to replace the SLM Electronics Acoustic Lab speakers with the 1 oz. magnet and all would be super. If anyone has cleaned out a 4x12 let me know. I'd rather have T75's than these things - they look like Chinese Eminence speakers. That would make sense as St. Louis Music was in bed with Eminence back then.



I bet that sounds awesome. Glad it fires up and delivers the goods. Great score Alan! WGS has a good selection and I like the Veteran 30's I have. They have the Et65's and higher powered GB like speakers too. A few others I like as well. Anywayz by your description I'd love that amp too. Way to go.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> This is the head, right?



Yep, that's it. Mine doesn't have the red knobs on the far right. That's the attenuator and the presence control. Mine is in unbelievable condition. There's one rip in the tolex on the 4x12 and it's on the very bottom. It looks like the amp has been in storage for 20 years. I need to get some good pics.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I'm going to be looking at a set of WGS speakers probably...


Alan, I bet that if you put just 2 Vet30s in there it would sound much better. We'll be needing some clips once you get it sorted! 

Joe, nice to see you again!


----------



## solarburn

Right back at ya John.


----------



## Lowlife

Looks like a neat amp, that means business, it'll be interesting with some clips.

PS. on topic, just won some Dario Miniwatt ECC83's of fleabay, anyone knows these?


----------



## mickeydg5

Lowlife said:


> Looks like a neat amp, that means business, it'll be interesting with some clips.
> 
> PS. on topic, just won some Dario Miniwatt ECC83's of fleabay, anyone knows these?


 
Great tubes if they tested well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Dario's are one of my favorites in the V1 of earlier Marshall amps.

What color is the printing, yellow or green?


----------



## 61rocker

_Hey guys....Hope everyone is doing well....great score RiverRatt...you have me gassing (from a post a few months ago) for some kind of Ampeg....I thinking one of those old combos Aerosmith or the Stones are reputed to use in the studio....Ampegs have a very unique tone to them....hope you enjoy it dude....RFTs are a nice bonus too, I remember seeing ads in Circus Magazines for Hot Rods back in the day.....If anyone cares, I've had some vertigo issues that are really bad...but today I found out my MRI came back negative...whew....seems they didn't find a brain up there either.....Here's my new purchase...found an '82 2203 at GC in Memphis last week.....nice condition....I consider this a very fortunate being in the right place find...thx again to Buddy at GC for great customer service...._


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool amp man! Sorry to hear about the vertigo. It can be scary trying to diagnose things that involve the brain. I've been on blood thinners since March and probably will be for the rest of my life. I had some memory and personality problems as well as a pulmonary embolism. It's a big wonder that I'm still here. 

I had a bad experience at Guitar Center Nashville a couple of weekends ago. We're trying to work out a compromise. Basically I had a deal worked out and one of the mid-level managers came around to OK it and was a total dick. Did you know that the Vintage Modern is not a popular Marshall amp? It's not at GC Nashville apparently. For such an unpopular amp, I think they sold it in just a couple of days. It was only on the website for a very brief time. The 4x12 is on there too for about $100 more than he said he could sell it for. Asshole.

I need to get me some of those Dario MiniWatt tubes. I've heard Marty talking about them for a long time but I've got too many irons in the fire right now.

That Ampeg is based on a JCM800 2203 with the usual Lee Jackson treatment. Channel 1 is pure Marshall no matter what it says on the front. Channel 2 can be pretty much anything you want except tame - with humbuckers it is a total beast. I found a chart of what all seven 12AX7's do. It's at home though. I'll post it later. It's pretty unintuitive, kinda like a 6100.


----------



## 61rocker

You know....I've told you a while back I didn't like the Memphis store, but I've had some good experiences there lately with Buddy and Nathan. I was going to buy a VM in Little Rock for $799, but when I went back it was gone...they have one in Memphis, but it's $999....Believe it or not I was going to buy an MA100watter for only $349, like what the heck...I played thru it for about an hour....then I got up and back off for a minute(which is what I always do) and went into the vault room and bam, there was that JCM....
Yeah, I hope to hear some clips of you playing thru that Ampeg....it seems to me you can play with the eq and really come up with some knarley tones....Peace Bro...


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, it'll have to wait a bit. I'm having all that carpal and cubital tunnel surgery Thursday. I've been having a hard time playing for awhile, like I would have to play for over half an hour before my hands kinda loosened up, and it still felt awkward. My pinky has all but become dead weight. I haven't tried to record anything because about all I can do is 2 and 3 finger chords and they are sloppy. At least I know what the problem is and it should be a 100% recovery on the carpal and the cubital (ulnar) nerve, which controls my ring and little finger, should eventually get most of the way back to normal - maybe not 100% but close to it, at least a hell of a lot better than it is now. I can live with that. I was afraid it was something permanent but I saw the best hand surgeon in this part of the world back in June and he's very positive. I'm trying to be, too.


----------



## 61rocker

Send you some prayers dude....I have Carpel Tunnel also.....it's not that bad tho....it does affect me till I warm up sometimes tho....Gettin' old is a bitch man


----------



## brp

Great find on the 2203 Rocker and good to see you. Vertigo bad huh? That's shitty, hopefully they can figure it out some for you. I'm sure the Doc would not be happy to hear you just got a monster 80's Marshall 

A speedy recovery to you, Alan. I'm sure it will all work out great and you'll be rattling that Ampeg in no time.
I'm going to be keeping my eye out for a deal on one of those, as they're just the kind of thing I'd likely see on CL here that many would not give a second look to, and neither would I if not for you posting about it.
There's always lots of things on CL here and many that are decent deals that still get relisted, and I could see one of these popping up over and over with no takers.
I don't need that much amp but with the built in Atten. and for the right price, hell ya.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Dario's are one of my favorites in the V1 of earlier Marshall amps.
> 
> What color is the printing, yellow or green?



Thanks for the heads up, they test very well, one is a NIB i believe. They have yellow print, both of them. Is that a good or slightly less good thing?

Good to see you back Marty.


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> Well, it'll have to wait a bit. I'm having all that carpal and cubital tunnel surgery Thursday. I've been having a hard time playing for awhile, like I would have to play for over half an hour before my hands kinda loosened up, and it still felt awkward. My pinky has all but become dead weight. I haven't tried to record anything because about all I can do is 2 and 3 finger chords and they are sloppy. At least I know what the problem is and it should be a 100% recovery on the carpal and the cubital (ulnar) nerve, which controls my ring and little finger, should eventually get most of the way back to normal - maybe not 100% but close to it, at least a hell of a lot better than it is now. I can live with that. I was afraid it was something permanent but I saw the best hand surgeon in this part of the world back in June and he's very positive. I'm trying to be, too.



Eek...keeping my fingers crossed for you mate, hope your hands return to their former glory


----------



## RiverRatt

61rocker said:


> Send you some prayers dude....I have Carpel Tunnel also.....it's not that bad tho....it does affect me till I warm up sometimes tho....Gettin' old is a bitch man



Thanks. The surgery isn't that big of a deal but it scares the crap out of me getting my hands worked on. It's pretty much necessary at this point. I've had drinks slip out of my hands and other stuff. It's getting bad enough that it has to be addressed before it gets any worse. My two main activities are playing guitar and typing. Actually it felt like playing guitar was helping. Once I got through that warm-up period I could lose myself for an hour or so. Now, I get frustrated well before I get to that point. That's been my way of unwinding when I get home from work for ages.


----------



## mickeydg5

Keyboards and mouses, mices and their pads; man that stuff can wreak havoc on your arms and wrist. Leaning on your elbow is very bad too, I mean when you are at the computer desk or work station. I find exercising the wrist and forearms helps a good bit.

Hope everything turns out good for you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

My ulnar nerve was detached at birth. I lived with it for 52 years. It would actually roll back and forth over my elbow. Problem was, due to my job, I had damaged the back part of my elbow. There was a sharp bone growth (spur) on my elbow and it was starting to saw the ulnar nerve in half. I couldn't hold a guitar pick in my right hand. 

One of the best surgeons did the job on me and I am so glad I had it done. I would have hated to have it done in my 60's.

Not exactly the same situation as yours, but similar effects. It will heal quicker than you think. I went to lunch after having surgery in the morning.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Marty, it's success stories like yours that I like to hear. There is a possibility that he may have to relocate the nerve and I'm hoping that's not necessary. Sometimes it does like yours did and won't stay put. Glad t see you posting here again.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I'm having all that carpal and cubital tunnel surgery Thursday...


Didn't see this until now, best of luck to you Alan! Keep us posted...

I've some pain issues (from too much computer use), clearly not as severe as yours. By religiously using gel pads and switching to a trackball I've been able to keep it under control. It doesn't take long of keyboard and mouse use on a hard surface to mess me up.


----------



## RiverRatt

The carpal tunnel isn't that bad, but not being able to control my pinky on my left hand is driving me crazy. My span has never been great so I rely a lot on that finger a lot, especially low on the neck. It's not so bad further up but I use it a lot if it's more than a two-fret span.

Thanks for all the concern guys. I'm had enough of doctors and hospitals. I'll be around. If you don't hear from me by tomorrow just assume that I'm either dead or off in Percocet land.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found out that it's only my left hand getting operated on! I thought he meant both hands, but he meant both nerves. That's very good news!


----------



## Lowlife

Great news. How long is your expected downtime guitar playing wise after an operation like that?


----------



## RiverRatt

Probably 10 days to 2 weeks and I can start working with it. It was a routine operation. When he said both at the same time, I thought he meant both hands. He meant both nerves, one at the wrist and one at the elbow. The local anesthetic will be good for another few hours. I'm going to wait and see how bad the pain is before I get into the meds. I'm having to hold that arm over my head - it's swelling really bad, especially my fingers. I can type pretty well with one hand. So far it's much better than I expected. 

As soon as I feel up to it, I'm going to get into my amps and see what tubes I'm running and where. I had a Telefunken in V1 of my Tweaker head, and a Raytheon JRP as an FX loop driver. I'm going to use what Chinese tubes I have in the non-tone spots and free up those good tubes. I also found my ribbed plate Tele as well. I stuck the JRP in V1 of my AC15 and I think I'll keep it there. It's a dark sounding tube that compliments the Vox tone well. I put the ribbed Tele in the Class 5. I think I prefer them to the smooth variety in a guitar amp.


----------



## DirtySteve

Glad to hear it went better than you expected, I didn't figure to see you post anymore today. That's awesome it was only one hand! ...means you can still  with the other.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know about that. I've got an Alesis Micron synth that I may play around with.


----------



## DirtySteve

I meant that literally, just what the smileys doing. Joke FAIL!  It's been a long day and I'm tossin' back a few.

I just wanted you to know I was waiting to hear..


----------



## RiverRatt

I could do both but one arm would be wrapped in some kind of green medical shit. I may toss back a cold Moosehead or two tonight myself. Not on top of narcs, though. Not me, no sir. I promise!


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm starting to get some feeling back - the anesthesia is starting to wear off but it's not hurting much yet. I went and put a good line-up in the preamp and picked up my Kramer with the PAF Pro. I plugged into the Lee Jackson Ampeg and played some pedal tone chords over the A string for 15 or 20 minutes. I played a guitar 8 hours after surgery on my hand and elbow. I'm an idiot, but it felt damned good. Not so good now.

I have got to record some clips of that thing as soon as I can. It's like a room full of JCM800's, from stock to brutal.


----------



## brp

Dude! Give it a couple days, geez! 
Seriously you could mess something up.

Great to hear it's going well though 

Is the carpal surgery a separate deal that they'll do later or was that done today too?


----------



## RiverRatt

They did both the carpal and the cubital. The swelling has gone down a bunch. I can already type some with my left hand and it's not uncomfortable. I don't want to baby it and let it stiffen up. The doc said to do what I felt like doing.


----------



## brp

Well that's great!
Sounds like you're going to miss nary a beat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good to hear that you sailed through it.


----------



## f-r90

Hey guys Which combination of preamp tubes would you suggest for a 2555SL jubilee? I'm going to the US next week and plan to get some tubes for my amp since it's impossible to get tubes here in Peru
I was thinking maybe a Tung-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and V3, or maybe a Tung-Sol also in V2? what do you think about the mullards?


----------



## MM54

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwutHPYGgfU]Electronics at Work - 1943 (Complete) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

f-r90 said:


> Hey guys Which combination of preamp tubes would you suggest for a 2555SL jubilee? I'm going to the US next week and plan to get some tubes for my amp since it's impossible to get tubes here in Peru
> I was thinking maybe a Tung-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and V3, or maybe a Tung-Sol also in V2? what do you think about the mullards?



Since you are looking at buying current production tubes and the fact that they are hard to come by in Peru, I would stock up on at least a double set.

Buy a couple of Tung-Sol's and Mullard's for your gain slots, then a few JJ's and EH's. You could also try a few Shuguang tubes as well. 

Make your trip to the US worthwhile.


----------



## RiverRatt

f-r90 said:


> Hey guys Which combination of preamp tubes would you suggest for a 2555SL jubilee? I'm going to the US next week and plan to get some tubes for my amp since it's impossible to get tubes here in Peru
> I was thinking maybe a Tung-Sol in V1 and JJs in V2 and V3, or maybe a Tung-Sol also in V2? what do you think about the mullards?



Where will you be in the U.S.? It would be great if you could get one or two NOS tubes as well. If you are going to be here for a few days, we could probably figure out how to hook you up before you leave.


----------



## RiverRatt

I said that I would post the preamp tube line-up from the Ampeg VL 1002. 

V1 - Both Input Channels
V2 - Channel One (PREAMP Control)
V3 - Channel Two (PREAMP Control)
V4 - Channel Two Gain (GAIN Control)
V5 - Reverb
V6 - Mixer
V7 - Phase Inverter


----------



## Lowlife

Ouch, retubing that beast must be a nightmare.


----------



## Lowlife

Tube Gurus, i could use your input in regards to which tubes in the JVM has an impact tonally on the sound.

The Layout is like this:

V1 and V2 gain stages, V1A, V2B are used in all modes, V1B and V2A is switched in/out depending on the mode.
V3 is Cathode follower with the following functions:
V3A: tone control buffer.
V3B: channel mixer/ parallel loop send
V4A: Loop recovery
V4B: Reverb Mix
V5: Phase splitter.

I'm guessing, that V1 and V2 has a rather large impact on sound, and had it verified with a large tube rolling test. But V3 and V4, how much are they influencing the sound? V5, we have discussed many times.

My tube usage is this
V1: Mullard
V2: Raytheon black plate
V3 & V4: stock shuguang 
V5: Raytheon 12BZ7

Used to run a CBS 12BZ7 in V1 before I got the Mullard, that was pretty good actually. 

Is it worth it to put old glass in V3 & V4, and do you have any other suggestions for tubes to try?


----------



## f-r90

RiverRatt said:


> Where will you be in the U.S.? It would be great if you could get one or two NOS tubes as well. If you are going to be here for a few days, we could probably figure out how to hook you up before you leave.



I will be staying in miami for a couple of days, then I'm going to canada and then back to Miami.
As of now I'm planning to get a couple Tung-Sols and Mullards to try at V1, and a couple JJs for V2 and V3 since the amp has currently got EH tubes all the way, so I could use those to roll in V2 and V3 (I'm changing the power tubes to Winged Cs)
I've heard great things about the Tung-Sol 12AX7, but what about the Mullard? Will it be a good match for the jube?


----------



## RiverRatt

That's cool. You do need to get a Chinese tube or two. IMO the Russian tubes are pretty much all the same. They come from the same factory, they are made with the same materials, and to me they all sound a little boxy and dull. I think the Chinese tubes are closer to a NOS high-gain tube than any of the others. 

I've heard good things about the tone of the JJ's, and I've also heard the horror stories about the reliability. You'll have to form your own opinion on those. SolarBurn on here liked the JJ tube's tone, but I think he only got about 5 hours of playing time on it before it died.


----------



## Lowlife

I have used the JJ's succesfully as a workhorse for most of my amps (that is in the spots where it doesn't really colour the tone much). Never had one die or go microfonic on me.

edit: the reissue Mullards are NOTHING like the originals, but not a bad tube.


----------



## f-r90

RiverRatt said:


> That's cool. You do need to get a Chinese tube or two. IMO the Russian tubes are pretty much all the same. They come from the same factory, they are made with the same materials, and to me they all sound a little boxy and dull. I think the Chinese tubes are closer to a NOS high-gain tube than any of the others.
> 
> I've heard good things about the tone of the JJ's, and I've also heard the horror stories about the reliability. You'll have to form your own opinion on those. SolarBurn on here liked the JJ tube's tone, but I think he only got about 5 hours of playing time on it before it died.



by chinese tube you mean the Shuguangs? 
Ok I'll get one of those to try it also on the jub


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> Tube Gurus, I could use your input in regards to which tubes in the JVM has an impact tonally on the sound.
> 
> Is it worth it to put old glass in V3 & V4, and do you have any other suggestions for tubes to try?



The Mullard and the Black Plate are a perfect V1/V2 combo and set the tone for the amp. You would get a small improvement with a good tube in V3. This would be V3A only. I like running an Electrohome in a slot like this. This is the Canadian Amperex.

Running NOS in V4 would not be doing anything.

Does the BZ7 hold up as a phase inverter? What do you hear between it and say a NOS 12AX7? 

I've done a lot of research and reading on the PI slot. Most veteran amp techs agree that a lopsided tube is best in the PI, with some players even using a 12DW7. The BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7, so I would like to know how it sounds in the PI slot.


----------



## mickeydg5

I want to know about the 12BZ7 in the PI too. I remember doing this a while back but I did not keep notes.
It has the same ratings but uses twice the heater current and has twice the transconductance (lower plate resistance).
I remember more signal, like as if you turn the volume up, but I do not recall a change in tone or distortion when I did it.


----------



## Lowlife

Thanks for the reply guys.

Ill try replacing V3 with something else, to see if i can tell the difference.

In the PI slot I tested various tubes, and left the 12BZ7 in, because it sounded really good. Ill try swapping it for a 12AX7, to check what the tonal differences are. Ill report back on the issue.


----------



## mickeydg5

Some cool information on this thread if you have not seen the links or site before.
It may be subjective but nice information nontheless.
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/45506-fyi-bias-setting-table-push-pull-class-ab-amp.html


----------



## RiverRatt

f-r90 said:


> by chinese tube you mean the Shuguangs?
> Ok I'll get one of those to try it also on the jub



Yes, the Shuguang 12AX7. They are sold under various names but if it looks like this, it's a Shuguang.






The photo is from the Han Trade (Beijing) Company, who are apparently some sort of wholesale dealers in Shuguang tubes. This quote is from their website... very Zen. I'm sure it lost something in the translation.

"We are the sole agents of Peking that the first light of days electronics takes care of the factory. 
If need the electronics tube of high accuracy and high credibility, please contact us."


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Where do the Tung Sols rate in the NP tubes these days ....
I have a few in my 6100 , and they sound good , but i don't know how they will last ?


----------



## RiverRatt

The Tung-Sols had some problems early with being used in the more demanding positions. I know the cathode follower/tone stack (V3) in a DSL was too much for them. It's been several years since that problem was fixed and they should be fine now, at least to the extent of any other current production tubes. I've used maybe a half-dozen of them and no failures or problems, but I don't have any of those amps now so they may have gone nuclear as soon as I sold them for all I know. I always load up an amp with CP tubes before I sell it unless it's to someone I know who will appreciate some good old glass.

BTW, I think things are settling down and I'm ready to unleash the power of the Boss Metal Zone. Shoot me your mailing address again and I'll try to get it on the way to you this week.


----------



## f-r90

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, the Shuguang 12AX7. They are sold under various names but if it looks like this, it's a Shuguang.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The photo is from the Han Trade (Beijing) Company, who are apparently some sort of wholesale dealers in Shuguang tubes. This quote is from their website... very Zen. I'm sure it lost something in the translation.
> 
> "We are the sole agents of Peking that the first light of days electronics takes care of the factory.
> If need the electronics tube of high accuracy and high credibility, please contact us."


Ok great the, is that a 12ax7B?
Also, where do you guys get your tubes from?
ANyone ever bought from The Tube Store?


----------



## solarburn

f-r90 said:


> Ok great the, is that a 12ax7B?
> Also, where do you guys get your tubes from?
> ANyone ever bought from The Tube Store?



Doug's Tubes or the Tube Store are the first 2 I go to for CP(current production)tubes. Both have excellent CS and I've had tubes replaced by both when shit went south ie-micro phonics or a tube just quitting after a few minutes in the amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

f-r90 said:


> Ok great the, is that a 12ax7B?
> Also, where do you guys get your tubes from?
> ANyone ever bought from The Tube Store?



From what I can find about the "B" designation, it means that the tube is a 9th generation Shuguang and that some people consider it to be the best Chinese 12AX7. They are supposed to be more gainy but they might be too bright in some amps. 

Chinese tubes are really inexpensive, and you should be able to get good ones for a decent price from any of those places solar mentioned. I use the TubeDepot people for stuff like that and they've always done me right. Their Chinese 12AX7 is $8.95 and they will screen them for various things like matching triodes, low noise, microphonics, high-gain, etc. for a $2 upcharge.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Mullard and the Black Plate are a perfect V1/V2 combo and set the tone for the amp. You would get a small improvement with a good tube in V3. This would be V3A only. I like running an Electrohome in a slot like this. This is the Canadian Amperex.
> 
> Running NOS in V4 would not be doing anything.
> 
> Does the BZ7 hold up as a phase inverter? What do you hear between it and say a NOS 12AX7?
> 
> I've done a lot of research and reading on the PI slot. Most veteran amp techs agree that a lopsided tube is best in the PI, with some players even using a 12DW7. The BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7, so I would like to know how it sounds in the PI slot.



Okay, I did some tube rolling in V5 last night. 
On trial I had the Raytheon 12BZ7, A Dario Miniwatt 12AX7, a JJ ECC83 and a CBS 12BZ7.

The miniwatt sounded dull and flat, not at all good. The JJ was actually pretty good, and close to the Raytheon, and the CBS got too trebly.

I stuck with the Raytheon, which is a very unbalanced tube, maybe thats why it does its job so well. It just really REALLY get a great dynamic feel going. Good gritty sound.

I was amazed at the impact this had on my tone. I knew there was something tonewise to be had in that slot, but not that it was such a massive difference.

PS. afterwards i tried substituting the Mullard in V1 for the Dario Miniwatt, and it was good, sooo good.

PPS. I recommend people to try various tubes in the PI slot, it really is an interesting position.


----------



## nedcronin

Ok, I am totally blown away! I put a NOS Raytheon black plate 12AX7 in V1 in my Orange, and it blew my mind!!! I cannot believe the difference this tube made. Louder, clearer, deeper. More sparkle, but not in any way harsh. More sensitive, toneful. The gain is less fizzy, comes on later and is big & fat. A gigantic improvement in every way. I had no idea that NOS tubes would or could make such a difference. I am simply knocked out. I have been missing out never buying NOS glass!!! Well I am never going to skimp on tubes again, and I'm sure glad I didn't give up on this TT. I can't wait till I get my Marshall fixed and try some in there too. I happened by pure chance to bump into a tube junkie who has a record shop where I take my daily walk for a break at work. He has LOADS of NOS tubes cheap! These Raytheons look absolutely brand new and were only 15 bucks each. The guy also has an RFT he will sell me for 25 bucks. What do you guys know about this tube? I think he said it was a Telefunken?


----------



## sccloser

Telefunkens are nice tubes. The smooth plate 12ax7's are sought out by the audio guys, but the ribbed plate ones sound great in guitar amps as well. The ones I have tried are very smooth in the v1....makes the overdrive sound like liquid velvet.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

nedcronin said:


> Ok, I am totally blown away! I put a NOS Raytheon black plate 12AX7 in V1 in my Orange, and it blew my mind!!! I cannot believe the difference this tube made. Louder, clearer, deeper. More sparkle, but not in any way harsh. More sensitive, toneful. The gain is less fizzy, comes on later and is big & fat. A gigantic improvement in every way. I had no idea that NOS tubes would or could make such a difference. I am simply knocked out. I have been missing out never buying NOS glass!!! Well I am never going to skimp on tubes again, and I'm sure glad I didn't give up on this TT. I can't wait till I get my Marshall fixed and try some in there too. I happened by pure chance to bump into a tube junkie who has a record shop where I take my daily walk for a break at work. He has LOADS of NOS tubes cheap! These Raytheons look absolutely brand new and were only 15 bucks each. The guy also has an RFT he will sell me for 25 bucks. What do you guys know about this tube? I think he said it was a Telefunken?



RFT and Telefunkens are different valves, different construction he may well have both in which case you are a lucky fella.


----------



## brp

nedcronin said:


> The guy also has an RFT he will sell me for 25 bucks. What do you guys know about this tube? I think he said it was a Telefunken?



I have an RFT 12AX7 in V1 of my Vox Night Train that I got from Marty and it sounds great in there, a big improvement on the stock tube.
That's a good price if it's in NOS shape. Does he have a tester or guarantee?


----------



## MartyStrat54

A ribbed Telefunken is going to have more upper mid ring to it. I have used both the smooth and ribbed plate Telefunkens in guitar amps, especially with the metal crowd.

The RFT is a smoother and darker sounding tube. More darker than a JJ. It works well in bright amps. I like using them in VOX combo's as the RFT has a very short plate and resists producing tube noise.


----------



## RiverRatt

nedcronin said:


> Ok, I am totally blown away! I put a NOS Raytheon black plate 12AX7 in V1 in my Orange, and it blew my mind!!! I cannot believe the difference this tube made. Louder, clearer, deeper. More sparkle, but not in any way harsh. More sensitive, toneful. The gain is less fizzy, comes on later and is big & fat. A gigantic improvement in every way. I had no idea that NOS tubes would or could make such a difference. I am simply knocked out. I have been missing out never buying NOS glass!!! Well I am never going to skimp on tubes again, and I'm sure glad I didn't give up on this TT. I can't wait till I get my Marshall fixed and try some in there too. I happened by pure chance to bump into a tube junkie who has a record shop where I take my daily walk for a break at work. He has LOADS of NOS tubes cheap! These Raytheons look absolutely brand new and were only 15 bucks each. The guy also has an RFT he will sell me for 25 bucks. What do you guys know about this tube? I think he said it was a Telefunken?



Can you post any pictures of the Raytheons? I might be interested in picking up a few at that price if the guy will do internet sales. I just want a quick peek at them to make sure they are Raytheons. There were a few other tubes with long, black plates from back then. 

Also if you don't mind, can you find out anything about his brands/prices on the EL84's? I don't mind buying a handful of unmatched ones for the right price. I can use the pairs that match close enough in my AC15 and the ones that don't can work fine in my Class 5. 

I have several EL84's and they are one of my favorite tubes to collect. Every tube has its own personality and the Class 5 makes a great platform for auditioning them. I'm using an RFT EL84 in the C5 right now but it might be finding a new home soon. It sounds more like a mini-EL34 than any EL84 I've had.


----------



## nedcronin

Well I stopped in yesterday and he was buying some records from a guy, so I didn't want to bug him while he was making a deal. But I talked to him for just a minute and he said he has less preamp tubes than he thought he had. So I told him I would stop in next week and he said he will get what he has together. He doesn't do any Internet sales, but if he has el 84's I can find out what and how much. I would like to buy some but I have no way to test them and or match them up.


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## RiverRatt

I'll help you out with the testing. I'm honest - I send you back exactly what you send me, and with the TV-7 and Hickok 800 testers, I can match up EL84's close enough for a guitar amp. I can also audition just about any tube you run across in an amp. Once I get the test numbers for a batch of tubes, I like to test them in an amp to make sure they aren't noisy or microphonic, and also to check for tone. Tubes can vary quite a bit in sound quality, and just because it's a Mullard, Amperex or RCA, etc. doesn't mean that it will sound good in a guitar amp. If you want to pay the shipping and maybe a tube or two for payment, I'll be glad to check them out for you. Same with your friend - he could sell his tubes a lot quicker and for a lot more money if they are tested and guaranteed. If you think he might want to get his tubes tested, send me a PM and I'll give you my contact info to pass along to him. I don't rip people off - there are several regulars on here who I've dealt with before and can vouch for me. If you or your friend don't want to pay in tubes, you can PayPal me a few bucks and cover the shipping and I'm good with that.


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## MartyStrat54

Just hitting the tube threads to let everyone know that I am almost settled in at my new place in Muskogee, OK. I got my Internet up today, so that was a major hurdle taken care of. My air conditioner has been running hard since I got here. I picked a great year to move with all the record heat in Oklahoma. 106, 108 and even hotter. I thought I was living back in Phoenix again.

I will get over here when I can. I hope to be totally unpacked in the next week. 

Martimus Maximus Audio Tubes is now open for business.


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## brp

Hey, good to see you back and hear you're getting settled in, Marty.
That's some crazy heat! At least you have A/C.


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## mickeydg5

Good to hear that Maximus; not the heat stuff but the settling in part.


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## RiverRatt

Welcome back, Marty! Hope you enjoy your new digs.

I found an odd tube today. The number sounded familiar, it's a 6201. It turned out to be an early GE 5-star tube, triple mica construction, pretty cool. It's listed as a top-grade 12AT7. It looks a lot like a 5751 with the smaller 12AT7 plates. I got it in a $10 shoebox of old tubes a friend found for me at an auction. See the power tube thread for the others


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## brp

Any of you guys seen one of these?


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## mickeydg5

Have not seen one of those in the last two decades. Or did you mean that particular one?


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## brp

Well just one of these U-test machines in general, I don't remember ever seeing one. Thought this one was neat.
It's in a lot sale with 2000+ tubes close to me.


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## RiverRatt

There's a guy who owns a drug store that I use. We were talking about tubes once. He said they had a machine like that but when tubes started to fall out of favor somebody picked it up. Apparently it was just a point-of-sale thing and didn't belong to the store owners. There's probably an old Philco warehouse somewhere that's loaded to the teeth with those testers.


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## Lowlife

Thats really cool, looks like an old arcade machine but for tube nerds....just as fun too


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## MartyStrat54

In my hometown in the early to mid 60's, these sort of tube testers were in the grocery and drug stores. They were just emission testers. Not the most accurate.


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## Blcws6

Got a question for you tube guru's.

Have a new amp on the way (Splawn Street Rod!) and Im selling my DSL. I have an extra crap chinese pre amp tube sitting around which means when I sell the DSL I can pull on of the NOS tubes I have in the amp at the moment and replace it with the shit chinese tube. My question is which tube should I grab

The: Phillips JAN 12AX7 or the RCA Blackplate 12AX7?? Thanks in advance!!


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## RiverRatt

How much time do you have? I have a pretty good supply of Chinese and Russian 12AX7's. I'll send you one if you take care of the postage, $6 for priority mail.


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## Blcws6

No my question, was which of the two tubes I listed should I keep to put in the new splawn coming on Monday.

I want to pull one of them out of my DSL and put it in the splawn when it arrives. I will take the spare crap tube I have laying around and place it in the spot where I pulled the NOS tube in the DSL.

Which would you keep the JAN Phillips or the RCA Blackplate?


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## GIBSON67

I'd keep both of those and replace them with your chinese tubes if you have 2...

Where was the JAN Phillips made, USA, Holland, Britain, Germany, Canada??


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## Blcws6

couldnt tell ya unless there is a way to look at the tube and know. The JAN Phillips were actually in the amp when I bought it. So I have no idea of there origin.

Is there a way to tell?


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## GIBSON67

Pull it out carefully, trying not to rub off any lettering...it should say where is was made.

If not, then post a couple of pics here, and you'll definitely get your answer.


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## mickeydg5

Blcws6 said:


> couldnt tell ya unless there is a way to look at the tube and know. The JAN Phillips were actually in the amp when I bought it. So I have no idea of there origin.
> 
> Is there a way to tell?


 
The tube may have codes on it as well. Some codes contain symbols.
Pictures?


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## Blcws6

Ok so my two Phillips JANs were made in the USA

The RCA blackplate says Baldwin on it.

Im thiking I may just to go GC and buy a few JJ 12ax7s to replace and just keep all 3 NOS tubes. Thats a pretty solid plan right??


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## GIBSON67

Definitely keep the RCA Blackplate, and I'd try out all your tubes in the Splawn before buying any more. Is it coming supplied with tubes?


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## Blcws6

Yea its coming with whatever comes stock from the factory pre amp wise. As far as power tubes the previous owner put some winged C's in there for me but is also sending the stock el34B's as well.


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## Blcws6

I could always buy 3 JJ 12ax7s and throw em in the DSL and just keep the two JAN's and the blackplate. I dont think 3 JJ's would be very expensive from what I remember from tube shopping. 

Then I could roll those tubes in the splawn if I wanted to. But im gonna go ahead and assume I will be happy with the tone stock. As I played one last week at GC and it was amazing.


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## RiverRatt

If it's a USA-made JAN-Philips, it's a fairly recent tube. Philips didn't sell any Philips-branded tubes in the USA until they bought the Philco trademark in 1981.


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## Blcws6

what is your definition of recent? Old enough to classify them as NOS?


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## RiverRatt

They still qualify as NOS, but by that time people had been building tubes on that tooling for 15 or 20 years or even more. I think they compensated for that by making the components of the tube extra-heavy. You end up with tubes that test hot and match up nicely within the parameters of that particular tube, but they can be stiff sounding and not as musical as a tube that was made on that same tooling in the 1950's or 1960's. Some Sylvanias with can be that way. The old green print IMO are the most musical and the later yellow print tubes were good utility tubes, like phase inverters or tone stack/cathode follower tubes but maybe not the most musical. The early ones are very musical and sound good in a smooth Fender-type circuit, but the more recent ones seem to be better suited for that sterile, hi-fi world. IMO you are better off chasing the earlier Philips brands: Mullard, Amprerex, Valvo, Siemens und Halske, Ei, BEL, Matsushita, and any of the other late 50's and early 60's tubes. There were some Australian-made Philips tubes that I'd like to give a try.


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## MartyStrat54

Let's not forget that Philips sold off all their European holdings and then bought the tube manufacturing sector of Sylvania. At the time of this transaction, Sylvania had thousands of tubes in inventory. Most of the tubes were relabeled as Philips ECG. This included the JAN tubes.

Alan was spot on about JAN tubes. The best ones are actually the old "WA," "WB," and "WC" military tubes. The later JAN tubes were "ruggedized" and while they performed admirably in an aircraft, they were not very well suited as a HiFi or guitar amp tube. They will usually work well in non-gain slots.


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## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, you seem to know your Bogen amps. I found a Challenger CHB-100 today. I've read that these make good guitar and harp amps. It isn't in the best of shape, though. There's an old guy who has an antique store with this huge shed behind it. There's no telling how long it's been sitting out there exposed to humidity, extreme cold and heat, insects, etc. There's pretty heavy rust on the chassis itself which is a shame, because Bogen always printed a wealth of info on the chassis. There are still wiring diagrams visible on the back, and there's a vented cover on the back that swings up and out of the way so you can reach an input selector switch (MAG/MIC) and the preamp tubes.

I'd like some ideas about getting it into usable condition. I would probably just sand as much of the rust off the chassis as I can and leave it at that. I don't want to do a complete restore. It looks like something fried around what I assume is a bias pot. Tube layout is a Mullard 6EU7, a Sylvania 12AX7 (not original), a 6C4, and a quad of 7868 power tubes. Two of the 7868's are original RCA's and the other two are GE replacements. All the original tubes have "BOGEN" written on them. The 6EU7 is a Mullard! Why they didn't use a 12AX7 there I'll never know. The performance is practically identical between the two.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah this amp is a little more practical than the other 100 watt Bogen you were looking at with the 8417's. This amp runs the 7868's with a hot B+. Keep in mind that the 30-35 watt Bogen amps used two 7868's. (The 50 watt amp use two 6L6GC's.) 

My fear is that if you replace key components, you still might have a problem with the rusty transformers causing some sort of background noise or hum.

As far as using them for a guitar/harp amp? Yes, the are really good for this. I've even seen these 100 watt amps converted over to (4) 6L6GC's. Of course the tone of the 7868's are what makes these amps unique.

You might want to get a second opinion from Meg (Classic Gain) over on the Heads forum concerning the rusty transformers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I'll give that a try. The 7868 is supposed to be the 9-pin equivalent of a 7591A, so if I converted it to anything, that would be the likely choice. The problem is, both the 7868 and the 7591A are fairly rare tubes and can be expensive. The two RCA 7868's in the Bogen are older than the GE's. I know you can't tell a lot about a tube by looking at it, but the RCA's have a side getter and the flash barely has any silver left to it at all. It's got that RCA faded coffee-colored flash to it. Sometimes those tubes aren't the strongest.

I've always heard that rust doesn't hurt a transformer unless you remove it, but I don't know if they were talking about THAT much rust. I could tell there was a Mullard or some Philips tube in V1 and I bought it hoping that there was a Mullard ECC83 in there. There probably was one in V2 at some time. Bogen used quality stuff. It's impossible to tell, but I'd guess the transformers are Stancor. I have a few trannys lying around that might sub. I have a huge 330-0-330 Stancor PT that's brand-new. 

There were 2 thing that surprised me with the Bogen amp: the lack of a rectifier tube and the lack of a choke. This must have been one of the last of their tube amps.

Bottom line: I only paid $10 for it, so if the Sylvania 12AX7 is good I've made my money back. Anything else I get out of it is gravy.


----------



## RiverRatt

One other thing: Why is that filter cap on its side? By the burn marks inside the chassis in that area, I'd bet that isn't original. It doesn't look stock - it looks improvised.


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## 61rocker

_OK, guys...I didn't take a pic or write the code down, but I did look at the post about Marshall tube codes and didn't see an answer....My friend bought a JCM2000, a 2004 yr model...anyway I took my tester over there to check tubes....power tubes are ((C))'s, good tests....the preamp tubes puzzled me a little....the PI tube really resembled a Mullard but was original to the amp...and I think said Russia on it...I thought it to be a Svetlana...it flashed when I put it on the tester....the V3 had chrome smooth plates, a crimp near the bottem, I think to be a Yugoslav tube EI?....flashed very bright on the tester....the V2 had plates I have never seen...chrome, short with horizontal lines or ribs up each plate...not many 4 or 5...no flash....V1 was a Sovtek that on the tester went to about 60 then gradually went back to no good, we tossed it and I gave him a super strong RCA 7025 grey plate...anyway, without pics....does anyone have a clue to what the 2 chrome plates could be?.....Thanks..._


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## RiverRatt

Yeah, they are some version of Sovtek but I can't remember which. I have a handful of them somewhere. I think they are WA's or WXT's. I'll post a pic if I find one.

Did the PI have the four seams on the top like a Mullard? It could be a different Ei. They made both silver plates and gray plates. Smooth plates are the key, and that's what that one tube you mentioned is. I think the silver plates are some of the last ones that Ei turned out before they went away. I have two of them. One tests great, the other one is barely breathing.


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## RiverRatt

Do they look like this, just more silver on the plates?






This is the 12AX7WA.


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## 61rocker

Yep, that's the one we threw out....every Sovtek or Electro Harmonix I have ever had tests weird....even new ones....the needle will go up to about 60%, then gradually falls back to below 50, bad on my tester.....next time I go to Little Rock, Ill try to take a pic of the off ball chrome plater with the horizontal ridges...interesting looking tube....thx Alan....You're the man...man.....


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## RiverRatt

Okay, it's time to play "Guess how many old tubes Alan found today"! 100? 1,000? 10,000? I have no idea, I just know that I filled the trunk and back seat with cartons of loose tubes today. No kidding, they take up every bit of room in the car except for the front seats. Unbelievable. I'm going to be busy for awhile sorting these out. One whole carton was unopened JAN Raytheon boxes. I have no idea what's in any of them, but I've already found an RFT 12AX7, a Western Electric 6140 (cute, but no cigar). I'll take a picture tomorrow when I get the car unpacked. It's unreal. I thought that last haul was monstrous. These go all the way back to the globe-style tubes. I also found an amp head - A Silvertone 1483 or something like that. The faceplate is in horrible shape, but the electronics look promising. We'll see. Stay tuned for further news and information.


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## brp

I sense another order being sent to Canada very soon 

And yes, DO post pics! They will be a very helpful visual aid when explaining to my wife that I don't already have "a lot of tubes" and really could use more.



Man, your luck is ridiculous!


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## RiverRatt

No, I just know how to hunt these things down. I also annoy the hell out of some people until they cave in. It's an obsession. I probably need to join a support group.

It's not as lucrative as it sounds. I went through an entire box of noval tubes and I have an RFT, a Sylvania, and an Amperex 12AX7, an unknown 12AZ7 which I believe is actually a 12AT7, and a MIJ 6BQ5. If 6GH8's were worth anything, I could retire. I swear there were at least 200 of them in that one box. This is just scratching the surface. I have boxes and boxes and boxes to go through. If I run out, there are at least 2 more big boxes that I couldn't get to because of TV carcasses in the way. There are also several old phonographs in there that might yield a 12AX7 or two.

The Silvertone head was a really cool find. It's a 1483 head, and it runs off a pair of 6L6 power tubes and a 5Y3GT rectifier. There are two 12AX7's in it, and it uses a 6CG7 as a phase inverter. The iron looks pretty good. I haven't looked in the chassis yet. The faceplate will need some serious restoring. I think it'll be a great sounding amp if I can restore it. I have bunches and bunches of fairly new electrolytics to go through. I think they will be fine. 

Total bill for todays diggings: $40.

One other cool find: I have 3 or 4 boxes of loose signal caps. There are a LOT of bumblebees in them. It'll be awhile before I know what all I have. If anyone wants to put in a request for any oddball tubes, do it now. I'm not going through them twice if I can help it. I have several of the small compactrons like the ones Fender used in that bizarre version of the Twin. I'll probably take all the sweep tubes to my friend with all the HAM radio gear.


----------



## solarburn

Damn man! Hope you find some more goodn's in there. If I remember right doesn't forum member riffraf(?)have a couple of the Silvertones up and running? Don't know if they were the same model but he had clips and I thought they sounded really good. Well keep us up on this booty!LOL Hope you get something just stellar man.


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## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, how are you doing? I haven't seen you here in awhile. 

Yeah, I've heard those Silvertone clips. I may to a blackface job on the faceplate. It is fugly beyone belief. I'm optimistic about the rest of the amp. Like I said, the trannys look good, they all appear to be Stancor. If I can find a good schematic, I may get one of our gurus to go through it and see if any component values need to be changed. I'll probably restore it to factory specs first, though.

I had a blast digging through all those tubes. It was surreal - almost like a dream. They were in a barn that was used for storage. The walls were lined with old TV's. Vandals had been in there and it looked like they had pulled tubes from some of the TV's but they left boxes and boxes of them sitting around everywhere. They were mainly after the copper coils on the TV picture tube. No finesse about it - they just broke the yoke, tube and all of the picture tubes.


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## 50WPLEXI

RiverRatt said:


> How much time do you have? I have a pretty good supply of Chinese and Russian 12AX7's. I'll send you one if you take care of the postage, $6 for priority mail.



I have a few Chinese 12ax7's gathering dust. They have a yellow label with a star that reads Precision Tube by P.A.T. On the back it reads MADE IN PRC with a code of 8941 on the side. Are they good for anything?


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## RiverRatt

Chinese tubes are my favorite current production tube, especially in a high gain amp. I like them in V1 or as a phase inverter.


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## RiverRatt

Okay, I've been gone all day. I started moving boxes around and at least checking to see which ones I wanted to go through first. The tube caddy is one that I filled from a box that was coming to pieces. It was sitting up about 5 feet off the ground and the bottom was gone out of it. I was just scooping the tubes out and letting them fall in the caddy. Like I said, there are at least two more LARGE boxes of tubes waiting there, maybe more. Enjoy!

BTW, the last picture was a "to hell with it" moment. I didn't feel like unstacking that pile and going through it yet. Maybe tomorrow. The big box has a lot of octal tubes in it. 


































































Anybody want to come help me sort through them? Also, if anyone wants that box of Ford piston rings in photo #5, you're welcome to them.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Holy crap Alan! That is insane!


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## RiverRatt

I was hoping I'd find a few dozen Mullard EL34's. My son totaled my POS Camry on Thursday night. I only paid $2,500 for it - it was just to get to work and I'd run a route on Thursday's passing out newspapers and checking in on everybody. I thought that on a car that cheap, I'd just get liability and uninsured motorist and save a few bucks. Now I have to find a car. I've found a Honda that's in my price range, but I'm going to have to sell some stuff to get there. So far I have a decent pile of maybe 20 6BQ5/EL84 tubes but only a couple of good 12AX7's.


----------



## brp

oh lawd!

That's crazy. Hope you get some good ones to make it worth going through all that. Maybe you can ebay enough to get that new car.


Hey Allan I tried out that 12BZ7 today in the PI of the Tweaker. Sounds great, seems to be a little less low end-ish and very "crisp" for lack of a better word. Also seems there is a bit more noise than with the stock tube in there but that's hard to say, maybe not. Sounds great though.
Also put one of those AT7 in the effects loop and all seemed well there, although not really noticing any difference from the stock cp.


----------



## solarburn

Good Gawd man! I mean just look at all that ass...I mean GLASS! I hope you score big somewhere in that heap. Got to be something...

I need a cig man.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Wow!


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## RiverRatt

Thanks guys, I still have a lot of stuff to go through but I'm not finding any really big cash tubes. I've found a LOT of rectifiers, mostly 5U4's and a few 5Y3's. I've only been picking out the full-wave rectifiers so far. I'm going to go back through them later and try to group the common ones together, like all the 6GH8's in their own box, etc. 

I found a really strange MIJ 12AX7 last night. It's a triple mica and has two big posts running up each side between the plates. I'll try to get a picture of it. I found a real Telefunken EL84, diamond bottom and all. I've never even seen one of those!


----------



## minerman

Wow RR, that's a lot of tubes man!!! Just curious, what kind of "good/bad" ratio do you have when you find something like that??? Just curious, like out of say, 10 tubes, how many are usually good????

I definitely know where to find some tubes when the need comes!!!!

That's just a staggering amount of tubes man, unreal!!!!

I'm still waiting patiently (well, not patiently) on buying the Tweaker head, maybe this weekend, dunno. I get my "big" paycheck this coming week (monthly production bonus, attendance bonus), but I'll have to wait & see what bills have to be paid out of it....And, the company I work for is having their annual picnic October 6th, every empoyee gets $$$ just for showing up, & they give away prizes/money in drawings all day long. Last year, I came home with $600 in cash, & won a 60" flat screen tv....Sorry to go off topic there......

I'll definitely hit you up when I get the Tweaker head.......

BTW, do you think a tube swap in the HT-5 would help brighten it up any Alan???? It has an ECC83 & a 12BH7.....


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think you'll go wrong with the Tweaker. It's a great little amp and sounds good no matter what you're running in it.

You'd really need someone with some tube rolling experience with a Blackstar HT5 to get a decent opinion... I've never even played through one at the store. I do have plenty of 12BH7's that I would sell pretty cheaply but I don't know if they would be an improvement or not. Likewise with the 12AX7. I know that in my amp, Amperex tubes seem to be a bright-sounding tube, as well as a smooth plate Telefunken or maybe an Ei. You aren't going to notice a huge difference; the main benefit of NOS tubes is that their frequency response is a lot smoother than CP stuff, especially with the highs and upper mids. The older tubes will usually have a strong frequency or two but they compliment the tone rather than overpowering it.


----------



## minerman

Thanks for the info/reply Alan, I suppose I'll just wait until I buy the 15 watter in the next week or two, & take it from there....

I have read both ways about a tube swap in the HT-5, some say it made a difference, some say it didn't. 

Maybe in another week or two, I'll hit you up for some of those tubes, I plan on keeping my Blackstar now anyway, so it could be a modifiy/upgrade project thing like the little Marshall cabs I bought......

I'll definitely keep you in mind about those tubes though....

Thanks again!!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a lot of 6K6 tubes. I found several in that batch of tubes I've been going through. I have loads of 6V6 and 6L6 tubes, too. All those are good in the Tweaker. I've been running the 6K6's in mine and I really like those tubes a lot! They are a little more edgy than the other octal tubes. I can get really close to the tone of my Class 5 with the Tweaker and the 6K6 tubes.

I found a beautiful Telefunken ECC83 ribbed plate. The label is collector quality. It tests at 38-41 on my TV-7 with 32-32 being the minimum. Perfect for a V1 tube. I'm going to have to take some pictures of the good tubes I've found. There's one tube that says Japan on it and I've never run across anything like it. It has long gray ribbed plates, and there's a post on either side of the tube right between the plates that goes up to a 3rd mica spacer. That spacer has a square getter on it. There's barely room in the top of the tube for it. I still haven't given them a play test.


----------



## Billie68

I'm Interested in that Telefunken you just found River, message me & lets work something out. Bill


----------



## RiverRatt

PM sent.

I went through maybe a thousand tubes tonight. I'm not exaggerating. It was a large cardboard carton that a Shop Vac came in, and it was about 2/3 full. There were a lot of junk tubes in it but I did pretty well. I found several 12AT7's and 12AU7's, but I found six 12AX7's. That's the best haul so far.

You Amperex guys need to help me out here. I have two ANCIENT Amperex 12AX7's. They are labeled Emerson and say Made in Holland. There are no factory codes on the side, but on the bottom there is an ink-stamped Delta-7 and below that mC8 or mCB. They are long plate tubes and are clearly Amperex construction, but I've never found a mC Amperex before. They have four distinct seams on the top, a small black getter flash on one side of the top, and the exhaust tip looks more like a GE or RCA tube than an Amperex. There are two codes printed on the side of the tubes. One reads 4-04 and 274 under that, and on the other only the 274 is visible. These are NOT RCA tubes, and if the top number is the date code, they would have had to have been made in 1954, but I would think that the Delta-7 would mean 1957 production. I haven't tested them yet, but I'm excited about these! I've NEVER seen a long-plate Philips tube that goes back that far. 

They are caked in filth, but I'm afraid to try to clean any of the crud off because the print will probably come off with it. What would you guys do? Leave the dirt and keep the print or clean the tube and lose the print? They will still have the Delta code on the bottom.

I also found a short-plate Amperex with a 1962 code, a Mullard from the 1960's, and an RCA and Tung-Sol USA tube.


----------



## MM54

I've had my fair share of filthy tubes. Usually if it's something potentially valuable, I'll only wipe parts that have no print. Once I test (briefly) and confirm the tube is good, I'll clean it as best I can without interfering with the print. The dirt isn't going to hurt if you're testing it for a minute, and if it turns out to be a valuable tube, it's worth the value of the tube to take your time and clean it up a bit.


----------



## RiverRatt

A friend of mine once told me to use distilled water and a Q-tip to clean the gunk off and leave the labels, but I don't think an Amperex label would survive even that much.

On an aside, my wife brought me some boxes yesterday that were left in her classroom after she got some new stuff. One of them is double-walled and appears to be about a foot wider and longer than that Fluke meter. You still want it?


----------



## MM54

I'm at school now and won't be home until November (and at that only for a week then) but I'm still interested in it for long-term use, yes


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll have to get it boxed up and get a shipping estimate. Is that OK? If you can paypal the shipping cost, I can pay for it with my PayPal debit card. I've spent some money on all these tubes and it's going to be awhile before I start seeing a return on them. 

I have a shoebox full of 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes. They should bring a few bucks each. Stuff like that I'll probably sell in lots of a dozen or so. Anyone have any suggestions for shipping a bunch of tubes safely? I'll spend more in bubble wrap than I make if I have to go that route.

I'm still waiting for someone with Amperex knowledge to tell me about those mC tubes. I'm going to test them tonight.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I'll have to get it boxed up and get a shipping estimate. Is that OK? If you can paypal the shipping cost, I can pay for it with my PayPal debit card. I've spent some money on all these tubes and it's going to be awhile before I start seeing a return on them.



That sounds fine


----------



## RiverRatt

No cash-cow Amperex tubes. They test so low I had to read the gauge with a magnifying glass to make sure it was moving. There's no way I'm throwing them away - they are still rare enough that I'll keep them just to prove that they exist. One triode hit around 25 on my TV-7, with 32 being minimum good. Actually, I was pretty much expecting low scores, as the getter looked more like a coffee stain than a bright silver or black like you would expect. 

I found a Raytheon 5751 tonight, along with a few other 12AX7's, some that I haven't seen before and others that are very mundane. I got a couple of 12AY7's which is a first for me. They don't turn up very often. On one of them, it's hard to tell if it's a 12AY7 or a 12AV7. Those older tubes had tiny print. I've got my reading glasses and a flashlight and it's still hard to see.

I'm through testing. The Amperex scores bummed me out. I think I'm going to start on the Silvertone amp. I need to get my head out of these tubes for awhile. I'm doing OK with them, but I was hoping for more goodies than what's turning up. I hate TV tubes. Who in the hell needs a 7 volt 12AU7 or a 12 volt 6V6?


----------



## MM54

With the right lineup of weird heater'ed tubes you could make an amp that doesn't need a heater tap on the PT and just put the heaters in series. I have a Zenith tube radio from the early 60's that is set up that way.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> With the right lineup of weird heater'ed tubes you could make an amp that doesn't need a heater tap on the PT and just put the heaters in series. I have a Zenith tube radio from the early 60's that is set up that way.



All that is a little above me dude. I know you can build a radio without a PT and just run it on wall voltage too. I wouldn't set out to try it, though.


----------



## fast98dodge

I'm pretty excited about what just came in the mail... Sylvania JHS 12AX7 17mm Black Plate circa 1961...


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a lot of Sylvania JHS-12AX7's at one time. I gave them away and sold a few here and there. They are good tubes. They are good in a Marshall, but in a Fender amp they are magic.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone who's asked me about tubes a few days ago, please check back in. I accidentally deleted my current PM's and only have my PM's from the last 3 days ago. I have the ones from 3 weeks ago, just no current ones.


----------



## allstar100595

I'll get pics up in a second, but...

Just wanted some input on what kinda of tube you think I have. It's in a '77 JMP 2203, my V1 tube. The labeling appears to have been smudged off, but small traces of red ink are still on the tube. It was made in the US and it's a 12ax7a. Like I said, I'll post pics in a bit, but anyone have any clue as to what tube this is and if it's any good?


----------



## RiverRatt

Could be General Electric, Raytheon military, CBS, and maybe others. That's what comes to mind immediately.


----------



## mickeydg5

allstar100595 said:


> I'll get pics up in a second, but...?


 
Definitely need pictures. I think there quite a few labels out there with red ink.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got started swapping my new tubes around tonight. I had the Class 5 with all Telefunken ECC83's and a Tele EL84, the Tweaker with 6K6GT'S, and the Ampeg is loaded with Mullards and a Bel and an RFT. The last two are hot Sylvanias. I've been hitting them with my SG with a new set of WCR pickups. It's a GOOD sound.


----------



## mickeydg5

Sounds like a few nice lineups of tubes.
So, you heating up them Ice Buckers and throwing some Earth around!


----------



## RiverRatt

I really don't know why I haven't kept an SG until now. It's different enough from my Les Paul to justify owning both, but they are close enough to both feel like home. I think I could pare my rig down to the Les Paul, SG and blue Strat and be perfectly happy with it.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, several versatile guitars and maybe a backup. That is all you need.
(unless you have a vette or something, then maybe 6 or 7 dozen would be sufficient, )


----------



## allstar100595

Here's the pics of the tube I was talking about.


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## RiverRatt

It's an RCA from the mid 1960's. You were messing with my head with that first pic being flipped horizontally. I kept thinking it spelled TEXAS! or something.


----------



## allstar100595

Lol I see that too. Is it a decent tube? I was planning on getting a Miniwatt in V1 and Raytheon BP in V2. Should I rethink that?


----------



## RiverRatt

Those RCA 12AX7A tubes can sound okay in a Marshall if you have a strong one. The ones I usually run across with the flat-sided micas consistently test low. It should be safe to try it in your amp and see, but the Miniwatt and Raytheon will be better tone tubes even if the RCA is strong. I don't make it a point to look for RCA preamp tubes. The power tubes are a whole nuther story.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan...anything in a long plate Philips is old and rare. And you are right, if it is a Delta7, it is a 1957 tube. Now this being said, do these tubes have a slant D getter? They were made from 1957 to maybe 1960.

Too bad they don't move the needle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Yeah, several versatile guitars and maybe a backup. That is all you need.
> (unless you have a vette or something, then maybe 6 or 7 dozen would be sufficient, )



You must be talking about Matt3310.


----------



## RiverRatt

It has a bent getter like the older USA tubes. squared off corners and bent in the middle. I figured with the small brown getter flash that they were probably spent. 

After testing, I ended up with right at 2 dozen 12AX7's, around 3 dozen 6BQ5/EL84's, a shoebox full of 6CG7/6FQ7 tubes, probably 40 or 50 6V6GT's, more rectifiers than I can count, and most every one is either a 5Y3GT or a 5U4GB. I think I got one EZ81 and a lot more 6AX5 than I'll ever need. I have another box full of 6SN7's. I only found 3 6SL7's which Alex was wanting. I got around 2 dozen 6K6GT's which are like a 6V6GT with half the output. They sound great in an Egnater Tweaker. I found one 6L6GC. Somebody had removed the 6L6GC's from the Silvertone head that I found - the sockets were too clean. The idiots stole two 6L6GC's and left two 12AX7's in place, and one of them was an RFT. Judging by the tubes I DIDN'T find, I'd say most every one of these had been gone over already. There should have been more 12AX7's and larger octal power tubes. 

To add insult to injury or something like that, I found a NIB 5881 while I was going through the workbench. I moved something and there it was. I'd already found one 5881 a couple of weeks earlier, and they matched up right at 45 on the TV-7. That's a pretty strong 5881. While I was showing them off, the box on the new one came apart and I put them on the kitchen counter to do something. I didn't get back to them until the next day, and the new tube was missing. I sorted the tubes in the kitchen because there was enough room to have six or eight boxes for different tubes spread around. I know that 5881 ended up in one of the discard boxes. That's the only thing that could have happened provided my kids are being honest. I'm going to have to go through a few thousand tubes now to find that one 5881.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It took me over six months to find my Mazda Silver Plate. 

Good luck. I wouldn't be willing to put that much effort into it.


----------



## velboh

I recently picked up a 6100 (el34's). It is getting new power tubes, Winged C's. Any recommendations on preamp tubes? Also I have read posts regarding being careful regarding the PI tube. Can anyone explain what exactly the PI tube is / does different from the rest of the tubes? The only tube amps I have had previously have been much smaller / simpler! Thanks for the help!


----------



## mickeydg5

velboh said:


> I recently picked up a 6100 (el34's). It is getting new power tubes, Winged C's. Any recommendations on preamp tubes? Also I have read posts regarding being careful regarding the PI tube. Can anyone explain what exactly the PI tube is / does different from the rest of the tubes? The only tube amps I have had previously have been much smaller / simpler! Thanks for the help!


 
I am sure some of these guys can steer you with a 6100.
Check out this thread too (if you have not already been there ).
http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/11422-all-new-owners-6100s-welcome-dark-side.html


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty posted this ages ago. I went back and found it, but credit him for the info.


----------



## GIBSON67

Here's a tube that's listed on EBAY, right now. ROBERTVEGAS is the seller, avoid his listings for tubes!


----------



## fast98dodge

GIBSON67 said:


> Here's a tube that's listed on EBAY, right now. ROBERTVEGAS is the seller, avoid his listings for tubes!
> 
> 
> View attachment 10289


 
I'm trying to figure out who that guy is... He's listed in Olympia, WA and that's where I lived for 28 years until last June...


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! Some idiot will buy it, too. That needs to be reported. The guy has good feedback though. Maybe that's a mistake. He also has a legitimate-looking Mullard listed.


----------



## solarburn

Not too far from where I am.Lol


----------



## RiverRatt

Go kick his ass, Joe!


----------



## solarburn

I'm knock'n on his door right now...hahaha. He's about a 40 minutes away from me.


----------



## GIBSON67

He has another ad for a long plate Mullard, and it's a short plate...maybe he's just an idiot!


----------



## MM54

When I buy tubes on ebay (which I've not done for a long time due to time and $ restrictions) I usually don't read the description for anything beyond if it's tested. I get out a magnifying glass and enlarge the picture to decide what it is. I trust nobody


----------



## RiverRatt

Guys, I got some pretty nice stuff out of that last batch of tubes. I'm going to list a lot of it on eBay Sunday afternoon, but if anyone needs any 6V6's, 6K6's, EL84's, 12BH7's, 12BZ7's, 6CG7/6FQ7, or any of the 12A_7 tubes, send me a PM. I'd rather somebody here get them at a good price than to pay eBay and PayPal fees to sell them. I have to move some stuff. My 20-year-old who still lives at home totaled my car a couple of weeks ago and I have to come up with the $$$ to buy another one myself. I'll move this over to the Classifieds if I need to, but I figured you guys who hang out here would be the crowd who would be interested in some old glass. I don't do well when I post tubes in the Classifieds.

I also have some 6 volt power tubes that are close to EL84 specs but different pinouts, etc. If there's an oddball you need, check with me... I probably have it. I even have at least one 6C10 compactron for the Super Twin/Champ owners.


----------



## Lowlife

Interesting, could you link to one of the auctions, or tell me your sellername, so I can check them out?


----------



## RiverRatt

Sure, I'm going to try to get them listed this evening.


----------



## janarn

Found an old Telefunken ECC802S/E82CC that tests like new.
How good is the tube, and where is the best place to use it?
V1 in a Vox AC50? A V1 in a BF Fender amp? A Marshall?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a cool tube, but it's not going to do you much good in a guitar amp. It's the same tube as a 12AU7. A 12AX7/ECC83 has an amplification factor of 100, and a 12AU7/ECC82 is around 17. They can fetch pretty big bucks on eBay, especially if the print is good and you have the original box. I'd check into that. You could probably end up with a few 12AX7's for what those Telefunkens sell for. 

I hit the Telefunken jackpot - I found a ribbed plate ECC83 and a matching EL84, both tested strong and the print is excellent. They sound phenomenal in my Class 5. The Tele EL84 is the best I've heard in that amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, I got around in early July to sell a very strong matched quad of real Tele EL84's on EBAY. I didn't make that much on them. I also sold the 1954 Amperex EL84's and they fetched just a few more bucks than the Tele's.

It's like there is a glut of tubes out there right now. 

I couldn't make anything selling 6V6's on EBAY.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have not been keeping up with EBAY stash but when I do look I see lots of new names and plenty more accounts selling electronics and tubes.

It seems the best way to get more or better sales is to build your rep by providing a good bit of solid information, tester information, test with amplifier information. All that does take time too though.

Buy low, sell high!


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> I hit the Telefunken jackpot - I found a ribbed plate ECC83 and a matching EL84, both tested strong and the print is excellent. They sound phenomenal in my Class 5. The Tele EL84 is the best I've heard in that amp.



I'm running a tele EL84 as well, also think it's pretty good.


----------



## RiverRatt

I won't be moving the Tele's. They sound too good together. I have another ribbed plate ECC83 somewhere around here. I might try all Telefunken tubes in the Class 5.

I ended up with a NOS/NIB General Electric 5-star 6201 tube with triple mica construction. It looks exactly like an old 5751 but it listed as a 12AT7 equivalent. I tried it in V1 of my Class 5 and it's got a lot more gain than a 12AT7. Minimum good for a 6201 on my TV-7 is 50/50 and this tube was up in the 100's. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but so far it sounds great.


----------



## Lowlife

I run a Tele ECC81 in V1 of the C5, and i believe it's a Philips miniwatt in V2...sounds pretty good.


----------



## RiverRatt

The problem I have with using a 12AT7 in V1 is that it tips the amp more in the Fender direction. You can get some great cleans but you need a clean boost at the minimum to get a decent crunch, at least with the Marshalls I've tried that in. Joe could get a good tone with his Night Train and 12AT7's. That 6201 that I mentioned is the first 12AT7 equivalent that I've found that I would call a tone tube. 

I also have a nice 12AY7 that I'm waiting to try out. This is the first one I've owned - they have never been a priority and the only reason I have this one is because I found it in that insane lot of tubes I bought. I'm seriously considering going through them a second time just to make sure I have all the goodies.


----------



## brp

I really wanna try an AY7 in the Blackheart Killer Ant, if you happen across any more. 
They're recommended in it by a dude who does mods on them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Let me check it out in my amps first and make sure I don't want to keep it. If I don't need it, I'll let you know.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think a 12AY7 in the Killer Ant overall will just make it cleaner, lower volume.
Has anyone tried a AU or AT. That is probably similar just with lesser or greater signal to the output.

Oh, make sure to check the heater to cathode voltage difference at V2a of the BH1H. The AT, AY and stuff like that (5751) have lower max voltage ratings.:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I won't be moving the Tele's. They sound too good together. I have another ribbed plate ECC83 somewhere around here. I might try all Telefunken tubes in the Class 5.
> 
> I ended up with a NOS/NIB General Electric 5-star 6201 tube with triple mica construction. It looks exactly like an old 5751 but it listed as a 12AT7 equivalent. I tried it in V1 of my Class 5 and it's got a lot more gain than a 12AT7. Minimum good for a 6201 on my TV-7 is 50/50 and this tube was up in the 100's. I haven't had a chance to really crank it yet but so far it sounds great.



I have a couple of real Tung-Sol 5751's that have more gain than a hot 12AX7. I think I sent one to Joe to try out eons ago and Joe sent it back as it was too hot for his tastes. I sometimes wonder if these were actually rejects as they are so far off the specs to be considered a 5751.


----------



## mickeydg5

Freak out on this one!
Genalex Collection Gold Lion - KT88 (6550), KT77, KT66, B759 (12AX7), U709, U77 | eBay


----------



## Lowlife

Ouch thats a bit steep...16.5K


----------



## RiverRatt

The B759's look like Mullards. This is another auction to watch. I wish I could play in that league. I couldn't afford them if he moved the decimal a digit or two to the left.


----------



## 12barjunkie

I've searched the posts for suggestions on tube replacements for my Laney Lionheart to no avail. It has a TAD in V1 and a couple of generic ones in the other two slots. I'm just wondering if putting high quality tubes in V2 and V3 would actually make a difference?


----------



## RiverRatt

I looked at the user manual from the Laney site. They have a schematic but it wanted a username and password to let me download it. I may be wrong, but from the block diagram it appears that V1A is the first gain stage (clean volume) and the Drive control cascades V1A into V1B. The other two 12AX7s appear to be the tone stack driver and reverb driver and recovery. You might notice a slight difference changing out V2 but not enough to justify a premium tube. Get a good V1 tube and you should be set. Changing out EL84's is hit-or-miss. You might improve the tone, or you might add noise or it might just sound over-compressed and nasty. The Russian 6P14P is a good swap for an EL84 if you want a little more clean headroom and chime.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm pissed. I bought a Bogen hi-fi amp for $35 that had a Mullard mC1 ECC83 with a perfect shield logo, BVA and Great Britain stamp. Beautiful tube! Gassy as hell, too. I cooked it for awhile and finally got a reading of 15/24 on the TV-7 tester with 32/32 being minimum good. It had a B6B code on it - a Blackburn Mullard long plate from 1956. That's the oldest one I've ever seen. That could have been an awesome score. I can put it with my two 1950's Amperex long-plates. I suppose I could build an amp with a 20v filament transformer and get a little use out of 'em before they melt down.


----------



## 12barjunkie

RiverRatt said:


> I looked at the user manual from the Laney site. They have a schematic but it wanted a username and password to let me download it. I may be wrong, but from the block diagram it appears that V1A is the first gain stage (clean volume) and the Drive control cascades V1A into V1B. The other two 12AX7s appear to be the tone stack driver and reverb driver and recovery. You might notice a slight difference changing out V2 but not enough to justify a premium tube. Get a good V1 tube and you should be set. Changing out EL84's is hit-or-miss. You might improve the tone, or you might add noise or it might just sound over-compressed and nasty. The Russian 6P14P is a good swap for an EL84 if you want a little more clean headroom and chime.



Thanks man, I appreciate the help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ratt, sorry the mC1 was a dud.


----------



## RiverRatt

You and me both, brother. I bought a Motorola console stereo yesterday at a yard sale and it was all Mullard, but weird tube choices. It had a single I61 12AX7, a pair of ECL82 power tubes. There were three output transformers on it; a common 8" or 10" woofer and left and right tweeters. It uses an EZ80 rectifier.

What was the reasoning behind going with the ECL82? The triode section is in the 12AU7 range, and the power pentode has only about half the output of an EL84. Just guessing, I'd say the 12AX7 was there to boost the turntable output +20db and the ECL82's were the left and right preamp gain stages as well as the output tubes. I've read that you can substitute an ECL86 for the ECL82 for more gain but I haven't had time to dig into it. 

The power transformer and rectifier have their own little chassis in the bottom of the cabinet. That's pretty sweet; plug-n-play amplifier modules with quick connects from 1962.


----------



## RiverRatt

Do any of you have an 83 rectifier you might be interested in trading for something? My TV-7 tester quit working this weekend and the problem was that the 83 rectifier had gone bad. I don't know what happened to it but it would make a good maraca now. I'd like to trade a nice preamp tube for one. All I had was a marginal 5Z3 which is a sub but I want to get a strong 83 before I recalibrate. It's now testing around 4 points higher than it did.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can get a solid state, plug in rectifier on EBAY. This is what I put in my 707 over three years ago. It's much more stable and generates zero heat inside the cabinet.

With that being said, I think I have a spare 83 tube somewhere. I will take a look in the "obscure" area tomorrow and I will send you a PM if I have one.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Do any of you have an 83 rectifier you might be interested in trading for something? My TV-7 tester quit working this weekend and the problem was that the 83 rectifier had gone bad. I don't know what happened to it but it would make a good maraca now. I'd like to trade a nice preamp tube for one. All I had was a marginal 5Z3 which is a sub but I want to get a strong 83 before I recalibrate. It's now testing around 4 points higher than it did.


 
You should get and keep some spares of whatever tubes your tester uses, particularly the 83 and 5Y3GTA. Those are in at least a couple of your testers. Buy up a few and keep the best as spare, selling of the rest.

I do not have one to sell but you can pick them up at decent prices.
They use to sell from $25 to $35 but you can find deals with lower prices.

Do not substitute a 5Z3 for an 83 in a tester. The tester was designed around and specially utilizes the 83 mercury vapor tube. Tester manuals do not go into detail about this tube but it is imperative.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I've always read that the solid-state rectifier won't work correctly in a Hickok style tester. You'd have to modify the circuit to emulate the voltage drop you get from the 83 tube. If you can dig around and find an 83, that would be great!

Mickey, I thought I had a couple of spare 83's but when I tested them they were bad. One was DOA and the other was reading so low on the GOOD/BAD scale that it might as well have been dead. I went through my box o' rectifiers last night and couldn't find anything other than the 5Z3. I may have more but it's going to take some searching. The 83 that I pulled out of the B&K 707 was good but I have no idea where it is. I put the 5Z3 in just to verify that the old 83 was the problem, which it was. I'm not planning on using it until I have a new 83 installed and the tester is calibrated to it. I have several 5Y3's that test good so I've got that covered.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is cool. I figured that is what you were doing. I just wanted to throw the information about the 83 mercury vapor in the conversation. I know about the characteristics of the 83 and read somewhere about their specific use in testers, especially Hickok designs, but I did not keep a copy or a link.

Roger at AllTubeTesters supplies solid state rectifiers specifically made for Hickok designs. They are a little costly and honestly I would rather use 83's as long as they are available.

Are you testing those rectifier tubes on multiple testers to double check readings? If the shunt pot of one of them is out of calibration it will throw the reading off. That bit of information is not in most manuals or calibration procedures; (you are welcome ). Best to check before you trash tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

All I had was the Hickok 800 which isn't nearly as good with rectifiers as the TV-7. I may have a shot at a cheap Hickok 533 to keep as a backup. They are pretty decent testers.


----------



## mickeydg5

Um, there were quite a few companies that manufactured the TV-7 tube testers. But that is a Hickok! It is a military type, designed and built by Hickok along with a host of other subs.
Why do you think I had brought this up?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, I know Hickok designed them. We had a big discussion about that in here when I bought mine. My tester is a B/U made by Forway. When I was researching it before I picked it up, I read on one website that all the B/U testers were made by Hickok, but I don't think anything is cut and dried with TV-7's. I know they are tough. I dropped mine coming into the house with it awhile back and it bounced down the brick doorsteps. Brought it in, powered it up, put in a recently-tested tube and got exactly the same readings. Hell, it's even waterproof but I'm not going to test that feature.

The rectifier tests pretty much use the same settings on both my testers, but the TV-7 seems to read them more accurately. I just meant that I don't have any other testers in the house other than the 800 and the TV-7, and it's hard to test an 83 rectifier tube in the TV-7 when it's the TV-7's rectifier tube that you're testing.


----------



## mickeydg5

I got your point. I was thinking for some reason you had other testers.

Yeah, some of those military testers are tight and tough. I have never opened one of those but from what I have seen must be a bitch to work on with the way all that stuff is crammed into the small box.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did have an 83. PM sent.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I got your point. I was thinking for some reason you had other testers.
> 
> Yeah, some of those military testers are tight and tough. I have never opened one of those but from what I have seen must be a bitch to work on with the way all that stuff is crammed into the small box.



I sold my B&K testers. I kinda wish I'd kept the 747 though. You're right about the TV-7. The first time I took it apart, I thought I'd never get it back together. You can't lift the chassis straight out of the box... you have to see-saw it back and forth and try not to damage anything. The transformer is mounted to the bottom of the case and it's really easy to pinch a wire on it when you put it back together. There's no way to see it either unless it's visible through one of the screw holes.

Just to show my ignorance, there's a part that looks like a C clamp but it's less than an inch long. It has metal discs in it with flat wiring connectors in between the discs. That thing is a nightmare. The first time I took it apart and put it back together it wouldn't work and that piece was the problem. You can just touch it and the meter will go dead.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this out. I'm about finished sorting that mass of tubes that I got this fall. This was one of the surprises that I got out with. It's a Silvertone 1483 bass head that was in terrible shape. I can't do anything with the faceplate and the head box was falling apart. This is the chassis. It's ugly as hell but she's up and running. I also scored a ribbed plate Telefunken ECC83 with the best label I've ever seen on one with this head. Somebody had pulled the two 6L6GC's and the rectifier. It now has a Stancor OT and a couple of RCA black plate 6L6GC's and it's a really good-sounding amp. AlvisX swears by these and the man definitely knows tone. I've got to get some sort of enclosure for it. The column it's sitting on is a 1974 Peavey 4x10 PA speaker with four CTS square-magnet drivers. I had to repair tears in the cone on 3 of them but she sounds nice. I'm still getting a little bit of a ghost tone underneath everything that I have to sort out but it's a nice rig to work on and to play around with.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Hey Alan, I threw that super high gain Sylvania 12AX7 I got from you into one of my C5s today. 

Sounded really good.


----------



## DirtySteve

So I picked up a new DSL40C, http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/49376-nad-dsl40c.html Saturday. Today I rolled some tubes in V1 & 2. I ended up with a GE in V1 and a Raytheon BP in V2 and wow!...what a difference, but I'm clueless about V3 and V4. V3 (at least one side of it) is the cathode follower and I understand certain tubes shouldn't be use in a CF??? V4 is the PI and the only other amp I've owned with a PI was a PV Classic 50 and the most popular PI on the PV forum was a Sovtek LPS, but I don't know if that would translate to Marshall or not.

Any suggestions for V3 & 4?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Steve, if you are happy with your V1 and V2, then the hard part is over. I don't know what sort of extra tubes you have lying around, but if you got a couple more USA 12AX7's, then you are good to go. If you have to use current production, you can go with an EH in V3 and V4.

Is your GE (V1) a short plate? I usually sell short plates for a combo amp. The Raytheon is "Mr. V2" that's for sure. I usually go with a solid Philips tube like an Electrohome in V3 and then I use a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks Marty. The Raytheon I got from you for my Class 5 a while back and it's still going strong. I have a Philips MiniWatt, Philips E.H. and an RCA Mullard I got from you, too. I tried the Miniwatt in V1 but didn't like it.

The GE I got from Matt in my CA10 along with a Sylvania and he got them from RiverRatt. I don't know if it's short plate or not I'll have to pull it to see. In fact, there's actually a possibility I might have gotten them mixed up and I might actually have the Sylvania in there right now. One of them has a green Baldwin logo.

I also have another Raytheon and a few others I got from Alan. I marked them when I got them, but after swapping them around a few times the marker wore off and I've lost track of what some of them are. One of them has 5963 with whats left of an orange label on it and I have a 12bz7.

edit: the Philips E.H. is indeed an Electrohome, I can read enough of it to be sure now that you spelled it out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Steve that 5963 and 12BZ7 were just some oddball stuff to play around with. A 5963 is a close sub for a 12AU7 and the 12BZ7 is a 12AX7 with half the plate resistance. It's a HOT tube.


----------



## Lowlife

I have great success with a 12BZ7 as my phase inverter...it sounds spectacular, and after an extensive tube shootout I can honestly say, I have nothing matching it in tone.

In fact I should probably pick up some spares, anyone with a/some strong, maybe unbalanced, black plate Raytheon 12BZ7 lying around?


----------



## DirtySteve

MartyStrat54 said:


> Steve, if you are happy with your V1 and V2, then the hard part is over. I don't know what sort of extra tubes you have lying around, but if you got a couple more USA 12AX7's, then you are good to go. If you have to use current production, you can go with an EH in V3 and V4.
> 
> Is your GE (V1) a short plate? I usually sell short plates for a combo amp. The Raytheon is "Mr. V2" that's for sure. *I usually go with a solid Philips tube like an Electrohome in V3* and then I use a high gain, lopsided Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI.



Is that the same as the one I got from you that's marked Philips E.H. 30-28 on the box? I was never sure what the E.H. stands for.

edit: the Philips E.H. is indeed an Electrohome, I can read enough of it to be sure now that you spelled it out. 



RiverRatt said:


> Steve that 5963 and 12BZ7 were just some oddball stuff to play around with. A 5963 is a close sub for a 12AU7 and the 12BZ7 is a 12AX7 with half the plate resistance. It's a HOT tube.



Thanks Alan! I wrote it down on the 5963 box this time, lol. I'll get it figured out eventually. I've got to stop doing things when I'm drinking, I lost track.


----------



## DirtySteve

Lowlife said:


> I have great success with a 12BZ7 as my phase inverter...it sounds spectacular, and after an extensive tube shootout I can honestly say, I have nothing matching it in tone.
> 
> In fact I should probably pick up some spares, anyone with a/some strong, maybe unbalanced, black plate Raytheon 12BZ7 lying around?



Cool, I'll have to give that one a try today.


----------



## MM54

DirtySteve said:


> The GE I got from Matt in my CA10 along with a Sylvania and he got them from RiverRatt. I don't know if it's short plate or not I'll have to pull it to see. In fact, there's actually a possibility I might have gotten them mixed up and I might actually have the Sylvania in there right now. One of them has a green Baldwin logo.



The baldwin label is the Sylvania. GE is a red-label, regular (long) plates. I think those are the ones I sent. I know the GE I sent you I didn't get from Alan, not sure about the Sylvania.


----------



## DirtySteve

MM54 said:


> The baldwin label is the Sylvania. GE is a red-label, regular (long) plates. I think those are the ones I sent. I know the GE I sent you I didn't get from Alan, not sure about the Sylvania.



Oh ok, thanks Matt, haha I miss understood somewhere along the way then. 

Well in that case I don't know what I have in V1 (no label), but it sounds good. I was right about the Sylvania, but I haven't tried it yet. Right now I have a "mystery" tube in V1, Raytheon Black plate (high gain) in V2, Philips Electrohome in V3 and I'm trying the 12BZ7 in V4. I just put them in and haven't turned it on yet.

I'll have pics in the morning and maybe you guys can help me sort out what the the mystery ones are???? ...there are 2 I'm not sure of.


----------



## DirtySteve

Wow, she just got really articulate on me, but lost some of the "feel" I was diggin' so much... ..and got a little noisy. I think I'm going to start over on V3 & 4 and go one at a time.


----------



## DirtySteve

I'm pretty sure now that the one on the left is the Sylvania, the next one I believe is the GE, the 3rd one I have no idea, and the one on the right is a Raytheon.


----------



## GIBSON67

Third from the left is a GE longplate. See the silver wring in large letters, that is typical of a GE tube.

Is that a dual supported getter on the second one and a little foil square attached? if so then I think that would be a Tungsram.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeap, the second from left is Tungsram.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks guys. Ok then I've had them mixed up from the get go. I thought I fried the Tungsram when I turned on my CA10 with only one preamp tube. That's what I had it marked as, so I don't know what what it was now. That means I had the Tungsram in V1 all along. I can't understand how I got these so mixed up, but it won't happen again...thanks all!


----------



## DirtySteve

I just got done reading the 1st few pages of this thread...Wow, what an education! I have a much better understanding of how to approach this. I learned a lot about the 12BZ7, I didn't get I until now. I read the power tube thread all the way through, but I never did this one. The 1st page especially should be required reading for anyone with a Marshall! Marty is the man!


----------



## MM54

Tube 1 and 3 are the ones that came in the CA10  Sylvania and GE, respectively. #2's a tungsram (as has been pointed out). The tag with a number stamped into it gives it away.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks Matt!  It's just that I got a bunch of tubes all within a short period of time and went nuts rolling them between 2 amps and I lost track. I've got it figured out now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Steve-Let me tell you a couple of things. First off, when this thread started, I was still promoting using balanced PI tubes. I "do not" recommend this anymore. Over the past few years, it is the major consensus that lopsided PI tubes work best in guitar amps. Guitar amps have a pretty wide construction tolerance. Also, some people even use 12DW7's for their PI's. This is a massively lopsided tube. It is actually a 12AU7 and 12AX7 in one tube.

I also did a lot of research on 12BZ7's. Personally, I do not think they work well in certain guitar amps. Some amps will eat a 12BZ7. When you said your amp lost some feel, it could be the 12BZ7. It is hard to say how long a 12BZ7 will last in the PI slot.

I also used to like the original RCA 7025's for the V1 slot. However, I now prefer a good Philips made tube for the gain stages.

Just wanted to point this out, because if you read the early pages of this thread, I have different thoughts about certain tubes.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks Marty. I put 2 & 2 together and didn't go any further with the 12BZ7. I just put V3 & 4 back to stock for now and I'm rolling V1 with the Raytheon in V2. Once I'm sure about V1 I'll move on to V3 and see what I come up with and in the meantime I'll start looking for a good PI. Do you have anything I might want to try in any of the positions that might be better than the tubes I have? ...or maybe I'd be better off just sticking with CP in 3 & 4 and getting a couple of more good V1 tubes..?..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well after all the smoke clears, it became evident that the PI slot is pretty damn important. For those who have the money, a solid Mullard, Amperex, MiniWatt, etc. will do nicely in the PI slot. I like a high gain, lopsided tube. Really helps bring out the rich harmonics.

If you run a wimpy, low gain beater in the PI, your amp and tone will suffer.

For the people counting their pennies, a high gain pre-64 Sylvania Gray Plate is hard to beat in the PI.


----------



## brp

Y'all now have me wondering what I should put in the PI of my Tweaker.

I have motorola/Tungsol, GE/Electrohome, RCA12ax7a, Blackplate Raytheon(Baldwin), a 12DW7, a GE7025 and an RCA greyplate.
What would you use out of these, Marty (and anyone else who has an opinion)?


----------



## RiverRatt

Do you know how they test? If you already have the V1 spot well filled, I'd probably go with the Raytheon black plate as long as it tests hot. I'm not much of an RCA 12AX7 fan except for the older black plates.


----------



## brp

I think they all test real good. They're all from either you or Marty. Some of them have the scores written on them or the box so I can relay that if it helps or FYI....

The BP RAY says 30/30 on the box and it's from Marty.....


----------



## RiverRatt

That Raytheon is nice and strong if it tested 30/30 on Marty's B&K. I always look for a really strong tube for the PI.

If you got those RCA's from Marty, were they possibly the RCA/Mullards that he was selling awhile back? If I sent them, then they are USA tubes. I can't remember what 12AX7's I sent you, though. It sucks getting old.


----------



## DirtySteve

Hey Alan, you don't happen to remember what the Raytheon you sent me tested at do you? I'm going to roll some tubes in the PI today. I'm going to try a Philips MiniWatt (high gain 29-29), an RCA Mullard (31-33 and is very bright) both from Marty, and the Raytheon I got from you.


----------



## RiverRatt

Was it a military JRP or just a regular Raytheon black plate? I'm pretty sure that the regular Ray BP tested at above 50/50 on my TV-7 tester, where 32/32 is minimum good. I usually consider any 12AX7 that's around 50+ on each triode as a new tube. If it was the JRP, it was above 60 on each triode. Do you remember me mentioning orange print on the tube or anything like that? I don't think I have that PM anymore where we were discussing pre's.


----------



## DirtySteve

I don't remember, and I probably do still have the PM, but it is marked JRP in sharpie. There were no other markings on it. You think it would make a good PI or would I be better off saving it for a backup V2 tube?


----------



## RiverRatt

Ohhh that is one of the good ones. Whether or not you'll like it in V1 or V2 is a matter of taste. In V1, it's a really aggressive tube with a Billy Gibbons sounding tone and effortless pinch harmonics. I've used a JRP in V2 before and it's a good sound but it's different from what you're used to. It's really hard to put into words. It colors the tone differently from just about anything else. Like I said, I prefer a hot tube for the PI and that JRP is a good one. That's what I was doing with it before I sold it to you. It was the PI in my Egnater Tweaker and you've heard sound clips of that amp.

If there's any rule about tube-rolling, it's that you have to try each tube in each spot. I'd recommend doing that instead of trying to read this thread from the start. I was full of shit back then. We kinda learned about tubes as we went along. My favorite thing that I took from all that experimenting was that everybody involved was hearing the different tubes in exactly the same way and our descriptions of the tones we were getting matched each other. Once we got a general idea of the tube's sonic characteristics, we started trying them in the different positions in the amp to find the best mix. The Raytheon bp in V2 was one that everybody agreed on unanimously. I ended up liking high-gain tubes in V1 and the PI. Also remember that high gain tubes don't necessarily mean more overdrive or distortion. They can add punch and clarity and breathe some new life into your amp.


----------



## DirtySteve

Oh goody, lol. Thanks Alan, I'm going to try some things in about an hour or so and let you know what I think. This is going to be fun!!


----------



## DirtySteve

Ok, I really like the JRP in V1....better than the Tungsram which up until now won out for V1 out of all the tubes I have. I did not like it in V4 and so far I haven't tried any that I have sound as good (to me) in the PI as the stock tube. All the while I've had the high gain Raytheon (from Marty) in V2 and the Philips E.H. in V3. Damn, there are so many combinations and I've only rolled V1 & 4 today and I've been at it all afternoon. I've got a little buzz on now so I'm done for today, I think I'll work on V3 & 4 tomorrow.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's not something you want to do for hours. After awhile your ears get fatigued and it's hard to hear the difference in the tubes.


----------



## DirtySteve

I was keeping the eq at noon for all my tests and I'm going for feel right now. I figure when I find the right combination that "feels" right I can work on the eq after. Is that the right approach?


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> That Raytheon is nice and strong if it tested 30/30 on Marty's B&K. I always look for a really strong tube for the PI.
> 
> If you got those RCA's from Marty, were they possibly the RCA/Mullards that he was selling awhile back? If I sent them, then they are USA tubes. I can't remember what 12AX7's I sent you, though. It sucks getting old.



One of the RCA's says USA on it and the other says Gt. Britain, both labelled right on the tube.
Could the British one be the Mullards you mention that Marty had? Pretty sure that's where it came from about a year ago. It has RCA in red print on it and the same score writing (32/34) on the box as the 30/30 BP RAY. The USA one I got from from you.

Forgot to mention I also have a Matsushita, I think it's in V1 of the Tweaker currently. Should I be trying to move them around, have it somewhere else?

I think I have a 12AT7 from you in the Loop spot....




***edit: looking back through my PM's from Marty, he said it was an "EI marked RCA"
Seems to be a J and something else beside it that has rubbed off under the red RCA....


----------



## RiverRatt

Look near the bottom of the tube and see if you can find the date code. If it's a Mullard, it'll start with B, if it's an Ei, it'll start with a fermata. That's about as close as I can describe it... sort of like an upside-down U with a dot in the middle. Not all Ei tubes had a date stamp but Mullards without the B factory code are rare. Still a good V1 tube but more like a Telefunken than a Mullard. Ei bought all the old Telefunken equipment and made smooth plate ECC83's up until around 2003. The older ones are of course the best. If you see them labeled as 1970's or earlier, or if they are dated "Pre-War", those are supposed to be the good ones.


----------



## brp

Doesn't seem to be a date code. I looked with a magnifier under good light too.
There is small remnants of things that have rubbed off though but not near the bottom.

Guess I'll just roll some and see what's best.


----------



## RiverRatt

Are they smooth or ribbed plates? Smooth = Ei. I'm assuming that they do have the seams on the top of the tubes?


----------



## Jimidle

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some advice on preamp tubes for my JMP 50w combo 2104. The amp sounds great but I really would like to attempt to tame the brightness a bit (looking for AC/DC type tone), so does anybody suggest a particular type of preamp tube to use. Maybe JJs? Or NOS? I'm a bit of a novice when it comes to tubes, but I'm told it may help my tone if I do. I spoke to Watford valves recently and they recommended their retro (preferably cryo) range (russian, I think). Would these be the way to go?

I looked at what is currently in the amp, and this is what I found. Any ideas on what these are? There is no clear branding on the tube.






Thanks in advance.


----------



## Jimidle

hmm...here is the link to the image, hope this works :/

IMG_3526-2000.jpg picture by jimidle - Photobucket


----------



## healaras

Hey guys anyone have tested groove tubes in their marshalls?
I'm into getting some gt 12ax7 R3.I heard its similar to the old mullard if im right. I know a lot of famus guitar player use them like slash zakk etc
What do you think about groove tubes in general?


----------



## RiverRatt

According to what I've read, the GT12AX7R3 is exactly the same tube as the Russian 12AX7EH. I've never noticed anything special about them. I'd be willing to bet you a Telefunken that those guys aren't using them in their amps either. If I had to pick a current production 12AX7, I'd go with the Chinese 12AX7B. Second choice would be a Tung-Sol reissue. You can sometimes get a better tone by mixing different tubes, like using the 12AX7B in V1 for tighter cleans and the Tung-Sol in V2 to darken the tone a little. The main rule is, there are no rules in choosing tubes. You'll need to try as many as you can and see what works for you. Marty's the resident TSL expert, I'm sure he'll have some good recommendations.

Terry Kilgore (TubeTramp, Sgt. Valve, whatever he goes by now) posted on Facebook back in the summer that he got Lita Ford's amps in his shop to get them ready for her upcoming tour. She used all Tungsram 12AX7's. That's a lady who knows her glass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And that is why I recommend the EH as a good utility tube. Many here like them in the gain stages as well. For a modern amp, the DSL and TSL really like vintage tubes, especially in the gain slots.

Right now, there are current production tubes like the Northern Electric that cost more than an NOS or used vintage tube. So it boils down to what you want to pay. I know that RiverRatt knows that the Chinese can make good stuff or crap. It's all about what the buyer wants to spend per unit. The Preferred Series 7025 is a pretty nice tube and it is available through the Tube Store, Canada. 

For CP tubes in a TSL, I have the following recommendations.
V1. Tung-Sol (High Gain)
V2. Mullard CP
V3. EH
V4. EH (High Gain)

For the best tone, The DSL/TSL really shines with a Philips made tube in V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. V3 is usually another Philips tube and then the workhorse tube for the PI is a Sylvania Gray Plate (High Gain). If you have the money, then I go with a real Mullard or Amperex in V4. Another good PI tube is a pre-war Ei. This is somewhat comparable to a Telefunken.

Another tube that drew a lot of attention here is the Matsushita (Japanese) tubes. There are basically three styles. The "D" and "Slant" getter versions are best. These are available through some of the smaller tube vendors and can also be found on EBAY.

I have a TSL602 with real Mullard xf2 power tubes and all NOS glass. There is a noticeable difference in the amps tone versus current production tubes. TSL's tend to be harsh in the Clean mode with a CP tube in V1 and the overdrive is not as rich and thick. Some modern amps sound fine with CP glass, but the DSL and TSL do not fall into this category. I strongly recommend going with vintage glass in at least the V1 and V2 slots.

Finally, CYRO tubes are a waste of your money. I have said this before. If CYRO was such a good deal, they would have used it back in the 50's. Most CYRO tubes fail at the same rate as non-CYRO tubes. This means you are paying for something that doesn't add any value to the tube. If it really worked, everyone would be doing it and it would become "the norm" for tube manufacturers. This is sort of from the same vein as gold pins, gold AC sockets and oversized oxygen free copper power cords.


----------



## RiverRatt

The gold pins don't have any benefit audio-wise, other than the fact that they never corrode. That can be a big plus when you're dealing with old tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well this basically holds true with gold pins "and" gold sockets. You can still get oxidation with the steel sockets.

http://www.cable.alcan.com/NR/rdonl...CorrosionofMetalsinElectricalApplications.pdf


----------



## healaras

thanks guys great info!


----------



## DirtySteve

I finally hit on a good combination in my DSL. The line up is...

V1 = Philips MiniWatt (high gain)
V2 = Raytheon Blackplate (high gain)
V3 = Raytheon Blackplate JRP 
V4 = RCA Mullard

I know there are tubes that have been talked about that will probably work better for some of the positions, but out of the ones I have, this is the best I've gotten so far. It sounds good on both channels and it's the first time I really liked the Lead 2 mode. I think I'm good..._for now_.


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats Steve! That does sound like a really good line-up for a DSL. The JRP is a good strong tube for V3. I do notice a slightly different response and sound when V3 is a hot tube. Not a lot, but I think you get a little extra push in the high mids.


----------



## DirtySteve

I've been giving hell for about an hour and I love the red channel, the green channel is ok but it's been better. I'm happy though, I'm more about the metal tones right now anyway and it's doing very well with that. I don't think the RCA mullard is probably the best choice in the PI, but it's not bad. It's a bright tube and to me it always sounded kind of thin. I'm going to look for a high gain Sylvania gray plate, but I'm happy for now.


----------



## RiverRatt

You don't really get much tone with the PI. I like a tube that's really strong. Not like a high gain 12BZ7 but more of a strong 12AX7. If you want to see what the PI tube contributes to your tone, put a 12AT7 in and then try that JRP I sent you right after it. The 12AT7 will sound like you threw a blanket over the amp, and the 12AX7 will make the amp more live; it's a more powerful tone and makes the amp a lot more dynamic and responsive to your playing. I have no problem with running a premium tube in the PI spot. One of my favorites is a Telefunken.


----------



## MartyStrat54

DirtySteve said:


> I finally hit on a good combination in my DSL. The line up is...
> 
> V1 = Philips MiniWatt (high gain)
> V2 = Raytheon Blackplate (high gain)
> V3 = Raytheon Blackplate JRP
> V4 = RCA Mullard
> 
> I know there are tubes that have been talked about that will probably work better for some of the positions, but out of the ones I have, this is the best I've gotten so far. It sounds good on both channels and it's the first time I really liked the Lead 2 mode. I think I'm good..._for now_.



That's a pretty solid lineup. The MiniWatt in V1 is a sweet tube. However, since you state you are a metal player, you might want to try a Telefunken in V1. My metal customers love them.

Also, the effect of the PI tube is more of fatness and dynamics. If your RCA is really a Mullard, this is a good choice. However, RCA sold tubes marked as, "Made in Gt. Britain," but they were actually Ei's. You can tell by how the internal parts look.

The PI tube is really important. I would experiment with lopsided, high gain tubes.


----------



## DirtySteve

Marty, I got the RCA from you about a year ago or maybe more I really can't remember. The box is labeled RCA Mullard. I do think it says made in GB on it though. I never got along with it before so this is really the first time I found a spot for it.

edit: the numbers on the RCA box are 31-33. Is that what you mean by "lopsided"? I don't know if I said or not, but I got the MW and the V2 Black plate from you as well. You don't happen to have a Telefunken for sale do you?


----------



## jumpingjack

This first preamp tube in your amp makes the most impact on your tone from the preamp perspective, try several different brands, new and NOS and you will hear the difference, trust your ears not specs or marketing hype.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No Steve, lopsided would be like 28-44. This may sound way out of line, but as I stated several times, some people use a 12DW7 for the PI and this is 17-100. 

You were saying getting a Sylvania Gray Plate for V3. Did you mean V4? I think the JRP is plenty good for the V3 slot.


----------



## DirtySteve

Thanks, yes I did mean V4. I'm changing my focus...I think a speaker upgrade might be my next move and I'd love to hear your opinion. http://www.marshallforum.com/cabinets-speakers/49908-dsl40c-speaker-swap.html


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I finally got around to trying out my $10 RFT-looking ECC83 last night. I had posted something about it in another thread about how it was listed as a Realistic (Radio Shack) tube on eBay. The starting bid was $9.95 and that's what it sold for. It looks just like an RFT and sounds really, really nice in V1 of a Marshall. The tube has two different ECC83 stamps on it, and it says "POLAND" in two different places. I still think it's an RFT, but I was wondering if anyone has ever seen a POLAM 12AX7? I don't even know if there is such a tube. The only thing I've seen labeled as POLAM was an EL84.


----------



## solarburn

Hey guys. Recently I bought an Orange OR15 thanks to my Mom getting some Indian money from a tribal settlement. She gave us 4 siblings a share so I was able to get the amp. Thanx Madre!

It came with a JJ ECC83S in V1 and then some no named(unmarked)12AX7's in V2 and the PI.It has an At7 for the loop. The power tubes are unmarked too...maybe Sovtecs although I am not good at telling what a tube is by its internals. I just haven't spent time learning that cause I have a Marty and a Alan to tell me.LOL

So I tried some ANOS in V1 and V2 but it didn't change anything for the better that my ears noticed. Put the OEM's back. I thought I'd do some rolling a few weeks later which is where I'm at now. First I put that Matsushita D getter in V1 and thought it increased the upper mids a bit. The Orange circuit has plenty of low mids in it. At that point I just took all the OEM's out of the preamp. I put a BEL in V2 and a JRP in the PI. I wanted to keep some warmth in there and that's why I used the BEL AND JRP cause they are darker or smoother sounding 12AX7's. turned out like I thought it would. I thought I'd try another tube in V2 to open the amp up to a bit more mid bite and bark. So in goes the Dario Mini Watt. Good grief that took it up a bit in gain and angry saturation at that.LOL 

So I have more upper mid bite. Actually could adjust the amp EQ a bit and back off some treble, mid and even bass. Just a bit though not any big turns of the knobs. The Orange has plenty of gain and does not need any tubes increasing that. What I did get was more bark out of the notes when I apply certain pick attack and overall more hair on it. That Dario seems to be a real strong 12AX7. I didn't expect much of a change from that slot.

Alan hooked me up with the Matushita D getter and Marty the Dario MW. Both Alan and I really liked what the Matsushita did in V1 of our DSL's. Made those Marshall mids a bit more aggressive yet still musical not harsh. It's working in the OR15 too. Those tubes did not work out in my Night Train though. So these dont pan out in other circuits like one might hope. The Orange to me is a Marshally version and I can see why I got good results. This OR15 kills at Vintage rock tones to hard rock. If it was a 100 watter like my JMP it would rip out the GB's in my 412 like the Marshall wants too. Raw and sexual tone.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have noticed tubes with Poland on them and no brand label. Some looked like RFT and some like Tungsram. I think I saw both white and yellow print. Relabel or resale maybe ???


----------



## RiverRatt

Congrats on the OR15 Joe! 

I could have gotten an Orange combo when I traded in that strat with a Hwy 1 body and the 1980's neck I got from matt3310. I ALMOST pulled the trigger on that one. I don't remember which model it was, but it sold for $900 at GC. It had some killer AC/DC crunch happening.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Congrats on the OR15 Joe!
> 
> I could have gotten an Orange combo when I traded in that strat with a Hwy 1 body and the 1980's neck I got from matt3310. I ALMOST pulled the trigger on that one. I don't remember which model it was, but it sold for $900 at GC. It had some killer AC/DC crunch happening.



The OR has been more fun than I anticipated and its Vintage voiced with a shit ton of gain sounding a bit Marshally. Different than the OR50 too. Plus it has a loop! Yeah Orange. Bout F'N time on that one. It will do blues/rock/hard rock galore. I don't hear modern stuff in this amp at all which is fine with me. In fact the reason I got it is it was more like my JMP...in that vein. 

It does a great hot rodded 800 sound but with the Orange mixed in. It's just fucking fun to rock out on. It won't touch the diversity of your Tweaker but it kills at crunch and hard rock that it becomes addictive. I've got callouses on my callouses.LOL I can't leave it alone for very long.

It was made for my GB loaded 412 too. I didn't like it much through my 112's when I finally decided to try it through them. Plus I get to use that magical Matsushita again!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe. Glad you like the OR15. Some amps just don't take to vintage tubes, which may or may not be a good thing. Did I send you a Dario, or did you take it out of V1 of the JMP? The one in the JMP was high gain, like 35-35 on my tester.

Hope you get your line up figured out.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe. Glad you like the OR15. Some amps just don't take to vintage tubes, which may or may not be a good thing. Did I send you a Dario, or did you take it out of V1 of the JMP? The one in the JMP was high gain, like 35-35 on my tester.
> 
> Hope you get your line up figured out.



Yeah that Dario came out of the JMP and it did the same thing to it. It gives this really raw character to the amps saturation. Kind of beastly especially compared to like say the JJ 83S which is JJ's high gain offering and what came OEM in the OR. Course we know the JJ runs a bit flat and the Dario is much more open. The Matushita D getter packs a bit of a wallup too but both definitely added some bark to the lower notes and make power chords sound beastly when the gain is set high enough. You hear all the strings. nothings blurred. 2pm is as high as I will go on the amp and I shit you not about it breathing fire like a hot rodded Marshall. It ain't replacing the Marshall but what an addition to it.

I have 2 Mini Watts. One is the Dario and the other is whatever. Both sound good to me but the the Dario packs more of a punch.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Are they smooth or ribbed plates? Smooth = Ei. I'm assuming that they do have the seams on the top of the tubes?



Just getting back to these now, sorry and thanks for the help.

The plates have 3 ribs in that center, raised part of the plate. But I don't see any seams at the top of either of them. They say made in USA.

re: this post: http://www.marshallforum.com/734343-post14009.html


----------



## RiverRatt

If I ever dig myself out of this hole I'm in, I'm going to have to try one of those Dario Miniwatts. I'm liking what I'm hearing from you guys.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A Dario is good for any collection.


----------



## brp

I don't have any of these, What are they like guys?

12AX7 Philips/Amperex Bugle boys

Worth a 20 each?


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Get some brp, I have 2 branded Electrohomes and they are awesome. Really punchy.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> I don't have any of these, What are they like guys?
> 
> 12AX7 Philips/Amperex Bugle boys
> 
> Worth a 20 each?



Those aren't Amperex. They look to be exactly what it says on the labels; Electrohomes made in Canada. They are very much like an Amperex but not quite as sought-after. They are a Philips brand, same as Amperex, Mullard, etc.

I'm tired of these tube auctions that are so misleading. I don't have the time to police them, but it needs to stop. There's nothing about these tubes that would identify either as an Amperex Bugle Boy. The main reason is, IT DOESN'T HAVE THE BUGLE BOY LOGO ON THE TUBE! You could ask the guy what the date code says on the tube. If it's a Bugle Boy, it will start with a delta symbol _∆_ (the Philips factory code for the Heerlen, Holland plant) followed by 2 or 3 digits. IIRC, the Canadian tubes have a date code that starts with an "r". I haven't handled a lot of Electrohome tubes but Marty will probably know for sure. 

They still might be worth $20 each, I just wanted to make sure you know what you're getting.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> Those aren't Amperex. ...
> 
> I'm tired of these tube auctions that are so misleading....
> 
> 
> They still might be worth $20 each, I just wanted to make sure you know what you're getting.




That's why I check with you guys before even thinking about meeting up with these CL deal guys. Thanks man!

There's so many guys on CL here claiming this or that with tubes, trying to capitalize on the mystique and legend of different tubes. I don't trust any of 'em.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Philips designed tubes were made at many, many plants. In many instances, the design was the same, but each plant had it's own way of interpreting the design with the available materials and construction. 

That being said, Bugle Boys (Amperex) were made in the 50's and very early 60's. Electrohome's while they may be of similar design, are not Bugle Boys and should not be advertised as such. 

I like Electrohomes. I think they are a really great value and they make a great V1 in combo amps.

Now I do want to say this. Both Mullard and Amperex were relabeled as Electrohomes. I bought quite a few tubes off of Gameshound that were Mullard and Amperex Electrohomes. You need to really examine these tubes first hand to see what you have.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Sorry, i should have looked closer at the pic...
Something like this brp. Can't find my pics on photobucket for some reason, and to go through this thread to find it would take forever, so i just took one now.
Left pre shows fairly clearly in gold I65 and below it Delta 5k something. Etched Holland near the top and with 4 creases.
Mine were pulls from an organ off ebay, paid $12.50 each i think. Best part was the valves i received wasn't even the ones pictured when i bid. Confusion in packaging??? The pic in the link you sent looks very familiar, i wonder if it is the same guy i bought from... If it is, you could get lucky mate. Im sure any Phillips valve made anywhere in the world has its merits for that price on a pair.

Cheers


----------



## RiverRatt

For those of us who take tube collecting too seriously, it's good to find a little humor in the hobby now and again. First impressions?


----------



## 66 galaxie

riverratt said:


>



boing!


----------



## MM54

:eek2:


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> For those of us who take tube collecting too seriously, it's good to find a little humor in the hobby now and again. First impressions?



Now please tell me what that does


----------



## RiverRatt

All I know is that it's a low powered triode that requires forced air cooling to operate. It's a CV55. This is where I found it.

CV55


----------



## solarburn

That nipple is hot!

Tongue that when its lit up!

Coffee cup warmer...?


----------



## RiverRatt

I can't decide what it looks like, but it looks happy. I like how it's even got a pair of legs. 

It kinda looks like it could brew a cup of coffee, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Back on track, this came in the mail today. $10 on eBay. It's the oldest Ei that I've seen. The factory date code stamp is tiny, but you can see the �� factory symbol followed by what looks like a 4 and another character that's impossible to make out. When did Ei first start making smooth plate 12AX7's? It appears that this one is a 1964. 






Okay, copy & paste didn't work. The factory symbol looks like a fermata in music notation. Like this:


----------



## mickeydg5

No real clue. Does EI even know? Their plant was based on Tele technology in the 50s and ECC83 was popular so maybe.


----------



## RiverRatt

One more eBay moment. I think this is a Siemens und Halske. That was my first impression in any case. There were four views on the auction listing and I don't see any codes. Still worth a gamble for $12.99.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am not fimilar with that one. It has mid holes that go through the side plates as well as half moons on each plate fin with straight sides. What variety is it advertised as far as type?


----------



## RiverRatt

Just as a Euro or Japan 12ax7. I know for sure it's a Philips tube and it's not a Matsushita. I used to have a S&H but this polite little asshole who was just looking through my tubes relieved me of it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it may be a S&H. I found a picture on eBay that looks a lot like the one I had. Mine didn't have the upper mica disc but otherwise it looks right. I remember the shiny tabs, too.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I can see the same micas, plates and the tabs looked angled like the S&H. Any other pictures?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, there were three more but they all look about like the one I posted. I'll put them on here when I get a spare minute or two.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## gameshound

HELLO ALL

Tube blow out!!!
private message me with your needs..you will be very happy!!!

I don't sell crap!!!

Hope to hear from you all!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

I know gameshound from somewhere... have I bought stuff from you before? I looked through my eBay feedback and couldn't find anything, but I know your username from somewhere.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I know gameshound from somewhere... have I bought stuff from you before? I looked through my eBay feedback and couldn't find anything, but I know your username from somewhere.



You're joking...right?

His username is from right here on this forum "and" EBAY. Solid tube guy from Canada.


----------



## brp

gameshound said:


> HELLO ALL
> 
> Tube blow out!!!
> private message me with your needs..you will be very happy!!!
> 
> I don't sell crap!!!
> 
> Hope to hear from you all!!!



Hmmm, you messaged me in the summer about some AY7 I was looking for.
Sorry I never got back to you, kinda put the idea on the back burner at the time.

I don't know that I NEED any tubes right now but a "blowout" always sounds interesting.
You're in Canada eh? Colour me Intrigued...


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You're joking...right?
> 
> His username is from right here on this forum "and" EBAY. Solid tube guy from Canada.



No I'm not joking but my memory is terrible. He's not posted much here, and I was just trying to say that I remember doing business before but not on the forum.


----------



## brp

3000th post woot!
As per tradition, my 1k, 2k & 3k in this thread.

ok carry on..


----------



## solarburn

BELCH!

3K man! Tis a tradition on this thread. Congrats! Your stature is ever increasing...

That's what she said!


----------



## gameshound

MartyStrat54 said:


> You're joking...right?
> 
> His username is from right here on this forum "and" EBAY. Solid tube guy from Canada.


 
Hey Marty
sent you a message today and thanks for the "solid"
it's greatly appreciated!!

Gameshound


----------



## gameshound

brp said:


> Hmmm, you messaged me in the summer about some AY7 I was looking for.
> Sorry I never got back to you, kinda put the idea on the back burner at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know that I NEED any tubes right now but a "blowout" always sounds interesting.
> You're in Canada eh? Colour me Intrigued...


 
Let me know if there is something you need..I should be able to help you out

Gameshound


----------



## solarburn

First of all WTF are we doing on the second page?!

I've been trying to decide which tube I like better in the PI of my OR. Been roll'n a Funken against a BP JRP Sylvania. There is a difference in tone and feel keeping the amp EQ the same. I like both. I have 2 of the JRP's and one is a bit hotter than the other. Neck pick up is a bit bassier and it won't clean up as well with roll off. I got the JRP's from Alan and until now they were sit'n in my tube bin.

Well I think I'm going with the JRP over the TF. it's kind of chewy like a good BP can be plus it gives a warm crunch that can be articulate on runs with notes that are rounder. The TF has a bit less punch and articulation but I like how it saturates. A bit thinner and not as strong yet still a good tone. Cleans up well and adds some bite to the neck pup. Interesting contrast between the 2 and was hard to choose.

So I have a hairy Mullard(Matty D getter)in V1, Dario MW in V2 and now the JRP in the PI..for now hehe.


----------



## RiverRatt

Not a JRP - that's Raytheon. I think the Sylvanias are JPS and you probably have one I sent to you - I had several of those I got from an old HAM radio guy a year or two ago. If you're still into 12AT7's, I have a GE five-star 6201 that you would love. It is to a 12AT7 what a 5751 is to a 12AX7. Less gain, better tone. We might need to get together and work out a trade. I'll be glad to send it on its way if you want to give it a try. I've used it in place of a few 12AT7's and it definitely is an improvement over them.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Not a JRP - that's Raytheon. I think the Sylvanias are JPS and you probably have one I sent to you - I had several of those I got from an old HAM radio guy a year or two ago. If you're still into 12AT7's, I have a GE five-star 6201 that you would love. It is to a 12AT7 what a 5751 is to a 12AX7. Less gain, better tone. We might need to get together and work out a trade. I'll be glad to send it on its way if you want to give it a try. I've used it in place of a few 12AT7's and it definitely is an improvement over them.



Well the overly hot one is a JRP(Raytheon-my bad)and the other one I couldn't tell but they look a lot alike. The JRP was even marked as that on the outside of the box. I don't know what the other is then. I'll look harder at it later and see if I can make out any lettering. Most of it was gone. Maybe I'll do a quick shot of them so you can see.

As far as the AT7's go I have enough of them. I even have a Brimar Black Plate I forget what year. The others are Mullards and 1 JAN. let me think about that cause I do like them coupled with a boost hehe. I'm so weird.

Oh and still have to try the 5751 BP you sent men in the Orange. It kicked ass in V1 of the Monza.


----------



## solarburn

Well Alan I was wrong about the JRP. I read the box on the one and it is a Sylvania JHS. Don't know why I was seeing or thinking JRP...

So I like them in the PI. Don't know how I got 2 of them but I seem to want to connect them with you. Oh well.


----------



## RiverRatt

The JRP Raytheon looks identical to a standard Ray BP but it will have orange/red print. I don't suppose you'd be interested in parting with that 5751? I had just 3 or 4 left and this asshole who was looking at my tubes pocketed those and a few more. I may be picking up a Fender Pro Jr tomorrow. Fenders like 5751's 

What amps do you have now other than the OR15?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm thinking about off-loading the JTM610. If it's just a bad tube then maybe not but I have had some problems with it. One night I was using it and it started to sputter and pop so I shut it down. I turned it back on after a couple of minutes and it gave me a loud burst of static and a loud pop and then was dead quiet. I let it cool down and tried it again and was getting a pretty good tone out it for the last couple of weeks and last night it started making a high-pitched squeal and if there was any signal getting through it was drowned out. I think it'll be an easy fix but it has been a lot of trouble. I don't think it's design related, it's just an old amp.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> The JRP Raytheon looks identical to a standard Ray BP but it will have orange/red print. I don't suppose you'd be interested in parting with that 5751? I had just 3 or 4 left and this asshole who was looking at my tubes pocketed those and a few more. I may be picking up a Fender Pro Jr tomorrow. Fenders like 5751's
> 
> What amps do you have now other than the OR15?



Are you kidding!? You want me to give back the best 5751 evar! Let me mull that one over and see how much Xmass spirit I can muster...I'm feel'n Grinchy right now.

I'm waiting for Joey Voltage to get done with my JMP. Still have the NT & Monza plus the OR. Those are my tubers...oh I still have the DSL but its handicapped.

What a thief that dude was. I think those 5751 BP's are worth some money cause they are sought after. That was dirty pool!


----------



## solarburn

I'm gonna pop that fucker in now and see what I get.


----------



## solarburn

Holy shit mon! I shouldn't have put it in. My Orange just had an orgasm...I had an eargasm! I need a cig...

It's sticky. What the hell is in these BP 5751's? Voodoo? Damn...my panties just fell off.

I need another cig.


----------



## solarburn

I'm trying the GE version 5751BP now.


----------



## solarburn

Ok. The GE is cleaner sounding when saturated but it doesn't have that stickiness of the Raytheon. Plus the Raytheon sings like a mofo when holding onto notes especially when you bend into them. Also it kinda makes the OR SuperLead like as there is less gain but there is sag and bloom to notes when boosted by my Dano. The only down side is when I roll off the Orange becomes a bit darker to where it kinda makes the cleans duller. The cleans are no Fender clean so we won't care about that.

K I put the hairy Mullard back in for now. I must think about going without the sticky sumbitch...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I see we've come full circle. USA 7025's>>>Philips Made NOS>>>USA 5751's.

I tell you that the hifi crowd just love the Raytheon Black Plate, especially in tube powered headphones.

Too bad that the black plates weren't made that long. The military got the best of the best. JRP's are getting pretty silly in price. I still like the early WA's for a decent price.

I prefer a 1962 Raytheon Black Plate over a 1959 RCA Black Plate. The Raytheon is a precision anodized finish whereas the RCA looks like the coating was brushed on.

Some rare tubes that I still have in stock are short, black plate Sylvania's. Try finding some of those on the open market. The date on mine are 1957 I believe.

Another nice USA tube are the red tip CBS 12AX7's. I can't keep these in stock. They slay as a V1 in a Fender product.


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe, keep yer 5751. I'm just messing with you. All except the part about the asshole walking off with 3 or 4 of them.

Did I send you a GE and a Sylvania 5751 or just the GE? You lost me with the Raytheon part. The Sylvania is the diva of the bunch. Stevie Ray knew that (if you believe the stories). I really want a Fender '64 Vibroverb; the one they released with the tube/SS rectifier and the Diaz mods. Don't bother with Dumble. Those amps are rocket fuel for Strats. It's so ridiculously easy to get that singing SRV tone with one that it should be illegal. I was saving two of those Sylvania 5751's in the hopes that I'd find a Vibroverb to use one in (and have one for a spare!).


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Joe, keep yer 5751. I'm just messing with you. All except the part about the asshole walking off with 3 or 4 of them.
> 
> Did I send you a GE and a Sylvania 5751 or just the GE? You lost me with the Raytheon part. The Sylvania is the diva of the bunch. Stevie Ray knew that (if you believe the stories). I really want a Fender '64 Vibroverb; the one they released with the tube/SS rectifier and the Diaz mods. Don't bother with Dumble. Those amps are rocket fuel for Strats. It's so ridiculously easy to get that singing SRV tone with one that it should be illegal. I was saving two of those Sylvania 5751's in the hopes that I'd find a Vibroverb to use one in (and have one for a spare!).



I keep mixing in the Raytheon when its a Sylvania. I think the box the Sylvania 5751 is in said Raytheon. Anyways you sent both a GE & Sylvania. Let me think about it. It's not like I have an amp built for its zone. With the boost the Sylvania was chewy though but straight up I think it'd be better suited in another circuit. Best 5751 I have ever heard/ felt in a V1 slot. It did stellar in the Monza too but both the Orange and it are aggressive circuits. I can't believe that guy took like that. What an asshole. They're very sought after for those that know.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, keep them. I keep thinking that old dude still has a few boxes of tubes I haven't seen yet. I've called him a couple of times since then and ask him if he's found any more tubes, and he always has another box or two. 

My dad told me this past weekend that a cousin of mine has boxes of tubes that he bought way back when because he thought they would be impossible to get after awhile. I asked him and he does have them, but they are buried somewhere in a garage. I'm going to call him and see if he'll let me help dig them out. If I wait for him to find them, he will forget and I'll never see them. I had a chance to buy his old orange 1960's Gretsch Tennessean and farted around until he sold it to some wise-ass collector for $600. I actually got to keep the guitar for awhile when I was in high school and I thought it was a piece of shit because the binding was falling off the neck and it had this big goofy leather patch that snapped on to the back.


----------



## RiverRatt

I hadn't really thought about that guitar in a long time, and now I remember that he also gave me an old Gibson Maestro Fuzz pedal with the guitar and I kept it. Now what in the hell happened to it??? I might need to go tear into my old closet. I doubt it's still around but you never know. It might have gone up in the fire when I blew up my old Sound City 18" Bass cab. It was a piece of shit - the covering had mostly peeled off. I took the speaker out of it, filled it with trash and gasoline, and touched it off. It blew it completely apart, broke all the finger joints, etc. It was a spectacular explosion. The shit I did when I was young and stupid.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

California Jam inspiration on the cab River???


----------



## solarburn

Hahaha! Piromaniacs! Way to to go man. Well I'll keep em' for now but if you get that Fender we can revisit this. Maybe you'll get lucky and find some. Hope so. At least some more good ones stashed away waiting to be found...


----------



## RiverRatt

vintagevoltage351 said:


> California Jam inspiration on the cab River???



No, I just like fires. Didn't even know about the Cal Jam thing at the time. This was back around 1985.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hahaha! Piromaniacs! Way to to go man. Well I'll keep em' for now but if you get that Fender we can revisit this. Maybe you'll get lucky and find some. Hope so. At least some more good ones stashed away waiting to be found...



I do have a Tung-Sol 5751 but it's not a triple-mica like the GE and Sylvania.


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked up a couple of new audio amplifiers today. One was a Bell Sound Systems Pacemaker, with a 5Y3 rectifier, a 6L6GB power tube, a 6AV6 and a 12AX7. It has mic and phono inputs. The 12AX7 is a Telefunken ribbed plate and the 6L6 is a Sylvania 6L6GB. The other amp is an RCA with no model number. It has a 2x6L6 (not GA, GB or GC) power section with a 5U4 rectifier, a 6SL7, two 6J7's and a 6SF5. There are also two big 9-pin sockets labeled X1 and X2. It has 2 mic inputs, a phono input with separate volume controls, and a tone control and an on/off knob. The RCA also has big iron - a PT/OT/choke setup. The only thing visible inside the Bell is the power transformer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

On the vintage RCA, most of the one's that have the 9 pin sockets are used for impedance matching the input signal. I have several vintage RCA amps and one has accommodations for four transformers to take the input signal from high to low (150-600 ohms). The RCA sounds like a model from the late forties to early 50's. The 12AX7 came out in 1947. RCA like most big companies did not push the 12AX7 until they had sold their inventories of older technology. I have an RCA transitional amp. It uses two 6L6GC's, one 6SL7 and one 12AX7 as well as two other driver tubes. It was made in 1958.


----------



## RiverRatt

That makes sense... X1 and X2 stands for transformer 1 and Transformer 2 maybe?

The Bell amp looks promising. It's a model PM10. It has two speaker outs on the back that use some sort of strange 5-pin connectors. They are the same size and the pins are labeled 4, 8 and 16 ohms. One of the others is labeled COM (ground) and the last is blank. If it's like my old Bogen amp that I got back in October, the 12AX7 is there to boost the phonograph input and usually makes for a great guitar input. It looks good too. I may try to hook it up to my variac and let it power up slowly and see if it works. 

The RCA is going to have to have a new mains cable before I can do anything with it. It looks extremely cool. The chassis is black with a cage over it that's either tarnished silver or gold looking, and it has brown chickenhead knobs. I know the 6SL7 is a preamp tube or maybe a PI but I'm not sure about the 6J7's and the 6SF5. The 6J7's have a grid cap.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have noticed that pinned sockets were used for quite a few connections back then.


----------



## solarburn

Damn guys I'm having a hard time picking my PI tube on my OR. 

The Sylvania BP sounds a bit rounder and articulate and is more present when soloing or up front.

The Miniwatt in the same slot gives it more of a Marshall flavor in the mids but when soloing the notes are thinner, less up front and less chew although it doesn't sound bad...just not quite as sweet while soloing.

So for rhythm playing I think I prefer the MW and for soloing the Sylvania BP. Each tube's character does come through on this amp rolling that PI slot.

Oh and then there are those times when my ears fatigue and the whole amp starts to go flat.:eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

Maybe you need a darker tube like a BEL, Mullard, 'Shita or an RFT. A Tungsram might be nice too. I have a Mullard 6681 which is supposed to be a rugged 12AX7 but I dropped it and it bounced off my guitar and guitar stand before it hit the carpet. I guess it wasn't rugged enough because it still tests new but sounds like ass. It still makes a good PI tube, though.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Maybe you need a darker tube like a BEL, Mullard, 'Shita or an RFT. A Tungsram might be nice too. I have a Mullard 6681 which is supposed to be a rugged 12AX7 but I dropped it and it bounced off my guitar and guitar stand before it hit the carpet. I guess it wasn't rugged enough because it still tests new but sounds like ass. It still makes a good PI tube, though.



I tried a BEL, Mullard and I know the RFT will be too dark. The Sylvania BP is as dark as I want to go as it fills that thinness with lower mids but still has bite.

What I like about the MW is it works on the upper mid a bit more which sounds good with the OR cause it has plenty of bottom. I have the Hairy Mullard(Shita D getter) in V1 and the Dario MW in V2. Pretty happy with them so I'm just gonna tune off this last slot or the PI. Anyways both sound great to me I just like one for certain playing and the other for what it does but I can't get both at the same time. I'm going to leave the MW in for awhile and see how long it lasts hehe.


----------



## solarburn

I still love playing the OR man. Makes me feel like a Rock star!

Hey if I want to send you anything should I use the Office addy or your home? I used the office last when I sent the OCD...


----------



## RiverRatt

Office I guess. I may not be there much over the holidays though. Did I tell you guys that the surgeon is going to have to work on my elbow again? My left hand was doing great, the strength and feeling were almost back to normal. About a month ago I woke up and thought I'd broken my arm in my sleep. The only way I could move it was if I picked it up with my right hand. It finally quit hurting so bad but it was sore for a couple of days and I couldn't bend it. My hand started going numb again though and I thought I knew what had happened and the surgeon confirmed it. That nerve had slipped off my elbow and is now on the inside part of it. It is a unique experience. Half my arm is numb and the other half is on fire. 

He's going to go back in on Thursday next week, find the nerve, and embed it in the muscle of my forearm. It should make for a fun way to spend the holidays. I'll be riding the percocets for a couple of weeks so if I'm on here making less sense than usual, let me know. I tend to get a little too happy on those things and I don't realize when I am speaking in tongues.

I have to get out this weekend and teach my wife how to drive a 5-speed car. I guess I'll get to use her little Nissan Versa until I can hold the wheel with my left hand again.


----------



## brp

Damn that sux Allan. I hope he gets it all straightened out for you. Good luck with that.

It reminds me of that freak Dave Mustaine arm injury when sleeping thing a few years ago.


----------



## solarburn

Well now you know for sure that it did that. Wish ya a speedy recovery and dem Percs are too damn fun hehe. Can't wait to see what happens when you are full of the spirit...or sumpt'n else. Should be entertaining.

Have a safe surgery and heal up well!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmmm??? I wonder why the surgeon didn't secure the nerve the first time he was in there. I had this same exact surgery and the doctor made sure it didn't move from where he put it.

I also was in at 7 AM and out by 11 AM, with no percocet. He gave me OxyContin. He-he.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well he discussed that with me. He said it's a lot less traumatic if they don't relocate the nerve. He's also re-thinking this policy now. About 90% of the people who have that surgery never have any problems. I'm used to being in that 10%. I've spent most of my life being in that 10%. 

BTW, percocet and oxycontin are the same stuff. I think they make a time-release oxycontin but otherwise they are both oxycodone. Kinda like hydrocodone that knows somebody.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I knew they were all in the same drug class, but dammit, the oxycontin was a bigger pill, ha-ha.

I also know about being in "the 10%." My first hernia surgery failed and this well known surgeon in Phoenix did the second repair "his way." He had perfected a technique that did not use mesh. I told him how hard I worked and how I put a demand on that part of my body. He told me, "Don't worry. It will hold. I only use mesh on fat people." Well his repair lasted 14 months and then OSHA demanded that he do a mesh surgery. Well I have suffered for years from this surgery. I am right now seeking disability from the VA.


----------



## RiverRatt

This guy is supposed to be the best around. No shit, they've flown people in to our hospital from all over the southeast just so he could put them back together. If someone mutilates their hand, he's the guy who fixes it. I ran into a girl I used to work with back earlier this fall and she showed me a picture from a Poison concert in Memphis. I said "Cool, you got to meet Bret Michaels." She told me to look a little closer. It was actually this doctor in full Bret Michaels mode. He's a trip.


----------



## MartyStrat54

At least he didn't dress up like a woman.


----------



## brp

Sidebar: I met Bret Michaels once, about 6-7 years ago. Just strolling around the zoo w/ his kids, as was I.
We shot the shit for a few minutes about their (his) glory days while our kids (his daughters/my son) played on the monkey bars.


----------



## RiverRatt

I saw Ricky Rockett in Nashville at the NAMM show once. There were all these people crowded around one booth so I edged in and saw who was causing the traffic jam. I yelled back to my friend that it was some dude named Ricky Rockett and he just shrugged and we left. I had no idea who he was.


----------



## brp

Haha. I recognized Michaels pretty quick even though he was pretty dressed down in everyday gear.
It was weird though cuz I wasn't at a rock thing or in LA or something.
I was like "wtf? Am I at the zoo in Abbotsford BC (population: 133,000) looking over beside the Hippos pen and seeing Bret Michaels from Poison just being an everyday dude?

He told me he has a house up here with his wife and kids. About a year later that Rock Of Love show came on so I dunno if that was all totally fake about him looking for a mate or the wife split, whatever.
Anyway he was nice, didn't give me the rock star vibe even though I kinda started chattin him about rock while he was with his kids, but hey the kids were playing and he was just waiting for them so what the hell, I said "how's things man?" and he started telling me about their reunion tour etc.

After he left I was like "doh, I should have gave him a card and offered any tech/engineer services he may need while in the area", could have been a networking opp.


----------



## mickeydg5

You did not recognize Rikki Rockett.
I do not know if that is a good thing for me or not. On one hand it makes me feel younger and on the other some might say "You know what Poison looks like!???"

Ha, ha ,ha. Yeah I saw them live once when they toured with DLR.


----------



## Mat_P

Hey guys,
more of a common interest question here.
So I have this old Dynacord Eminent EMT amp, the first series produced so it was made at some time during 1961-1965.

The preamp tubes are labeled Ultron SQ ECC83 12AX7 with a number 70310 on the side. There's also two Ultron labeled EL34, Ultron GZ34 and an Ultron magic eye EM84. I didn't find a lot about this brand in the www, just a suggestion in a German language board that these might be relabeled indian BEL (Bangalor blabla...) tubes from the 80th but that's extremely unlikely.
I got it from my cousin who sais he bought it used in 1974 as a keyboard amp from another guy that is known to me in person, too. He played it for about a year and it was stored in the cellar for the past 37 years.
My cousin said he never swapped tubes and it's unlikely that the pre-owner swapped them so the tubes are most likely the original tubes from the early/mid sixtieth.
Since I don't have a camera at hand I googled up a photo that shows what looks like the ECC83 I'm talking about:





There are other photos on the web with the same label but in white as opposed to the gold label above and it's obviously an entirely different tube.





So what can you tell me about those gold labeled Ultron tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

If they look like the ones in the first picture, I can tell you that they were made by Philips. My first thought when I saw those was that they were made by Mullard, but could be Amperex or any number of others. Look in the general area between the bottom mica spacer and the tube base and see if you find any small print. Philips used both alphanumerics and symbols for factory codes, so if it's something weird don't be surprised. If you find anything, post it here and we'll be able to tell for sure what it is. Otherwise, post a large, clear picture of one of your tubes. It looks like there's an extra spacer on the top part of the plates that is round instead of starred. That makes me think Siemens und Halske.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> You did not recognize Rikki Rockett.
> I do not know if that is a good thing for me or not. On one hand it makes me feel younger and on the other some might say "You know what Poison looks like!???"
> 
> Ha, ha ,ha. Yeah I saw them live once when they toured with DLR.



Thanks for the correct spelling  

I never got into the hair metal/glam scene back then. I remember seeing the video for Unskinny Bop and that was about enough Poison for me. C.C. DeVille was a bit over the top. I knew who Bret Michaels was. That was about it. 

There's a funny story that Slash told in some magazine interview about trying out for Poison. He played for the audition and all they asked him was if he had any other shoes (he was wearing moccasins). When he left, he met C.C. DeVille coming in for his audition and C.C. had the hair and stiletto heels happening and he knew right then that he wasn't getting the gig.

No, I'd never seen Rikki Rockett before that other than in that one video and I had no idea what his name was. They don't usually mention drummers in the guitar mags. I don't mean it as an insult to him, I just didn't know him and I don't make a habit of going up to celebrities and star-fucking them. Usually a handshake and a "How ya doin?" is good enough.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was just messing in a friendly manner.
No one can recognize everyone. I love Boston but could not pick the late Brad Delp if he were in a line up. I know Scholz, that is about it.


----------



## Mat_P

RiverRatt said:


> If they look like the ones in the first picture, I can tell you that they were made by Philips.............



Thanks RR. Yep, they look identical to the ones in the first picture. Will try to get my hands on a camera and make some closeups in the next days.
BTW, not the slidest sign of any labeling on the internal parts.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ultron was a West German company who distributed other manufactures' tubes. They didn't make tubes themselves. They stuck their name on just about any tubes they could by in volume. Think S and H, Amperex, Philips, MiniWatt and maybe even RFT's.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, the surgery went really well. It was sore as hell yesterday but I went to bed at like 6:30 p.m. and just got up an hour and a half ago. This past week I worked from 10 a.m. on Monday morning to 6:30 p.m. Tuesday evening, got about 5 hours of sleep Tuesday night, then went in and worked from 8:30 a.m. until 2 a.m. Thursday morning. I think that's right... it ended up being 49.5 hours without much of a break until Thursday morning. I got home around 2:15 a.m. and talked to my wife a few minutes, checked email and forum stuff, etc. and drank a couple of beers. I got up to go to bed at 2:45 and fell out in the kitchen... I mean hard, too. All I remember was noticing that I had an insect-level view of the kitchen floor. My wife woke up and came and helped me up. Thursday morning, I had a big purple knot on the back of my head. Apparently I landed mostly on my right shoulder and hip, and I think I hit my head on the kitchen table as I was going down. Friday morning I woke up and my right shoulder hurt worse than my left arm that I had surgery on. I had to go get a set of x-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I didn't hear back from them, so I'm assuming that it was OK. It doesn't hurt as bad but I'm sore all over.

The one good thing: I can use my left arm and hand fairly well. I can play guitar with very little discomfort so that's a big plus. I'm still pretty sore on my right shoulder, ribs and hip but I have some good meds and I'm not feeling much pain right now. 

I'm going to try playing some this afternoon and see if I can manage OK. I have this funky little squeeze bulb attached to a drain in my left elbow that's always in the way. It looks like a miniature colostomy bag. I'm going to wrap it up so that it's not dangling in the way. I should have that out on the 27th. I'm really looking forward to that! I have a few new tubes to check out and I need to work on a couple of amps. Maybe I'll be able to lift them. If not, my boys are 6'+ and can help me out if they can get away from their TV and video games long enough. 

All in all, it's much better than back in the summer. He did carpal tunnel surgery at the same time. This time it was just my elbow so I pretty much have full usage of my left hand. The little finger and ring finger are still a little numb but that should improve quickly.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Dang Alan. Dont over do it man!
Glad to hear your doing ok


----------



## solarburn

Holy shizzel man! Glad you landed on the other side but wow too! You got banged up. Take it easy and heal up man. Sounds like you are getting positive results from the surgery...as long as you don't crash some how.:eek2:


----------



## RiverRatt

I hadn't eaten anything since noon, and that combined with hardly any sleep in 3 days was probably why I crashed and burned. I'm used to having balance problems thanks to my prosthetic leg, but this was different. I don't really remember falling, just my perspective suddenly changing. I think I was up on one elbow looking around when my wife found me. 

Doc said to do what I felt like doing re: the surgery. The percocets are like icing on the cake, but the toradol is what's getting rid of the pain. It's an NSAID like ibuprofen, naproxen, etc. but it's way, way stronger. I'm only supposed to take it for 2 or 3 days because it can mess up your liver in a hurry. All things considered, I'm feeling pretty damned good. The 18 hours of sleep really helped a lot. I don't remember ever sleeping that soundly for that long. I remember having an epic dream that went on forever but it just a jumbled up mess now. Somehow it involved driving to the top of Mt. Fuji, a band performance, and I visited several music stores. I think I got pulled over by the cops at one point, and I kept getting lost in this one town. There was also a massive natural disaster of some type in a nearby city. You can do a lot of traveling in 18 hours.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Get well soon and watch the pills. I stopped taking my Oxycontin after two days. I had a ten day fill. They were just too good and I could see myself wanting more of it just in the first two days.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Take care of yourself Alan.
I hope the fall isn't something more serious...


----------



## RiverRatt

Everything is going very well. I drove up to Jackson Tenn and bought a made-over Squier strat for the parts. Right now it has a mint pickguard and a single lipstick tube pickup with a single volume control and that's it. I'm going to do a more traditional setup and try to flip it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Went to my follow-up appointment with the surgeon today. Everything is looking great and they took the drain out along with maybe 20 staples. It's leaking a little but my left hand is already feeling almost normal. The only problem is that I'm having these apocalyptic hand-cramps in my left hand when I hold it in a position for too long. He said the nerve had a lot of scar tissue, but he expects it to be back at 100% soon. 

I still have a big dark bruise on the back of my head around the area of my right ear. My regular doctor said she could tell there was blood behind my eardrum on that side. I'm hoping that little issue resolves itself soon. I'm taking blood thinners and I don't particularly like the idea of blood pooling inside my cranium. That might explain today's purchases. I took 4 pedals that I didn't like and came away with enough parts to build an ESP guitar, and I also got a Garage Tone Axle Grease delay and a Danelectro Fish-n-Chips EQ which sounds better than any Tube Screamer for a boost pedal. Everybody should try a Fish-n-Chips pedal - when you dial them in for a mid-hump and set the gain a decent amount above unity gain they sound better than just about any OD pedal I have. Don't try to use one with batteries; they will suck the life out of them in a matter of minutes. It's not so bad on my pedalboard, though. It's a great little tone machine!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Went to my follow-up appointment with the surgeon today. Everything is looking great and they took the drain out along with maybe 20 staples. It's leaking a little but my left hand is already feeling almost normal. The only problem is that I'm having these apocalyptic hand-cramps in my left hand when I hold it in a position for too long. He said the nerve had a lot of scar tissue, but he expects it to be back at 100% soon.
> 
> I still have a big dark bruise on the back of my head around the area of my right ear. My regular doctor said she could tell there was blood behind my eardrum on that side. I'm hoping that little issue resolves itself soon. I'm taking blood thinners and I don't particularly like the idea of blood pooling inside my cranium. That might explain today's purchases. I took 4 pedals that I didn't like and came away with enough parts to build an ESP guitar, and I also got a Garage Tone Axle Grease delay and a Danelectro Fish-n-Chips EQ which sounds better than any Tube Screamer for a boost pedal. Everybody should try a Fish-n-Chips pedal - when you dial them in for a mid-hump and set the gain a decent amount above unity gain they sound better than just about any OD pedal I have. Don't try to use one with batteries; they will suck the life out of them in a matter of minutes. It's not so bad on my pedalboard, though. It's a great little tone machine!



Well good news on the nerve but man you took a head whack. Hope that gets better soon. Keep on it so you can get in if need be. I'm sure your Doc went over symptoms to watch for.

Alan I used 2 of those EQ's when I played live. One for tone shaping/boosting gain in front of the amp and the other set for a boost in the loop when I soloed. Those things are inexpensive, look cheap on the inside but mine performed flawlessly for along time both gigging and home abuse. I still have them they are just tucked away cause I'm not playing out any more. One of those sleeper pedals but there are a lot of players that use them cause they work. The "Fish-n-Chips" club.LOL

Oh and +1 on powering them up instead of using battery.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Homer Simpson..."Hmmm, fish 'n chips."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Homer Simpson..."Hmmm, fish 'n chips."



They really are great boost pedals. You get 7 bands of EQ and a decent amount of gain, and it works very well. I don't go overboard with the tone shaping, I just set the eq in an upside-down V and dial in the right amount of gain. You can find them all day for $20 or $30 so it's not going to break the bank if you get one and don't like it, but I don't think I've ever met anyone who didn't fall in love with it.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> They really are great boost pedals...


You sure can't argue with the price. Is it a metal enclosure?


----------



## RiverRatt

No, it's just a little cheap plastic housing. I've never heard of one breaking, though. It's so small, it usually sits lower in my pedal board where it would be hard to step on unless you meant to.


----------



## solarburn

I stomped the shit out of it using it as a boost in the loop. Didn't break but man it looks cheap. I got a lot of use from mine. It eats batteries like Alan said.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah any type of FX with an EQ will suck power. A BOSS 7 band will eat a 9 volt battery. 

Alan, maybe you should offer an upgrade into a metal chassis.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## MartyStrat54

Guy has a couple of these on EBAY and claims they are rare. I guess he hasn't seen the Ei's that were sold by RCA that say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them.

And RCA got busted for it.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Chicken Salad pedal from that food series of mini-stompboxes is another good one. It's one of the best univibe clones out there at any price. That one is definitely worth putting in a metal enclosure. IDK about the EQ. That would be a little harder to do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For sale on EBAY. States "Made in Japan."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Guy has a couple of these on EBAY and claims they are rare. I guess he hasn't seen the Ei's that were sold by RCA that say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them.
> 
> And RCA got busted for it.



How much does dude charge for those rare Ei tubes?

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot more of the MIJ Mullards on eBay. Where did the idea that a Matsushita is a Japanese Mullard come from?


----------



## RiverRatt

I got one of those RFT Westinghouse 12AX7's on eBay for $10. Excellent tube! I got that S&H tube from China a couple of weeks ago. The base had a crack running from pin 1 to pin 4. The guy is sending me a black plate GE JG-5751 as a replacement for an extra $5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sold as a "Japanese Mullard." Oh well, it's still one of Alan's favorite tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> How much does dude charge for those rare Ei tubes?
> 
> I've noticed that there seems to be a lot more of the MIJ Mullards on eBay. Where did the idea that a Matsushita is a Japanese Mullard come from?



He was asking $35 plus shipping for those Ei's.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sold as a "Japanese Mullard." Oh well, it's still one of Alan's favorite tubes.



Those angled getter 'Shitas are hit or miss. As a general rule they are good tone tubes but I have had some that were blah. The long plate Matsushitas from the 1950s with the D getter can rival a Mullard mC1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I knew you liked the older long plates the best.

I've had good luck with the slant tops for cathode follower and PI slots.

The regular halo is on the bottom on my list. Remember, I sold a bunch of those to a dealer in Kansas City. I think I got $10 each and he was going to try to get $20 out of them.


----------



## solarburn

I've got the D getter Shita in V1 of my OR15. I call it a hairy Mullard cause it was more aggressive than my Mullards. Had more hair on it...LOL


----------



## MartyStrat54

A guy from Hong Kong is wanting to buy my set of four matched NEC 12AD7's (premium 12AX7). Here's someone who has a boatload of NIB 12DF7's. Wow. He wants $65 each and $10 to ship.


----------



## mickeydg5

12AD7s and 12DF7s would be nice for any collection.
A 12DM7 and 7494 would be equally nice.


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## MartyStrat54

I don't know if you remember me posting about all the premium 12AX7's that were made in Japan starting around 1965. Japanese engineers had already learned all there was about tube manufacturing so they decided to take it a step farther. The 12AD7's I have use a plate structure similar in size to an RFT. Smooth plate with a D slant getter. They go on EBAY for $55 to $75 each. There were four or five different tubes made. Another was a 12DT7. I think another was a 12DM7. If I remember right, they were all short plate, as by then the tube industry had settled on short plates as being the less problematic design. These tubes are super in V1 on hifi gear. They also make a silky smooth, ring a bell V1 in a Fender. Most have a gain of 80 to 90 even if new. If you ever get a chance to get one that isn't worn out, you should try it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and these special tubes can be found in most tube microphones.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, I lost track of all my tube microphones over the years. Kidding, never owned a microphone.

The 12AD7 is like a 12AX7 characteristic wise.
What interest me about the 12DF7 and 7494 are the lower plate resistances. They are similar to the 5751 but still have the 100 amplification factor. It would be cool to hear them (if I could get them cheap ).


----------



## MartyStrat54

That would make them a little cousin of the 12BZ7. The BZ7 has half the plate resistance of a 12AX7 and a 100 amplification factor.


----------



## mickeydg5

Na, not that low. At about 250V &-2V, the 12BZ7 is in the 30k+ range. The 12DF7 and 7494 are supposed to be in the 50k+ range being a little less than the 12AX7 which is in the 60k+ range.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I said the little cousin, not the twin sibling.


----------



## thrawn86

Last post of the year for the Preamp Tube thread: NoS tubes Rock! That is all.


----------



## RiverRatt

That all depends upon what part of the globe your ass is sitting on, right? 

We didn't even get wild last night and I just now noticed that for some reason there is a hair brush sitting on my computer desk.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like you had a spanking party. Otherwise, the dog is happy today.


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, my 20-year-old live-in college dropout got a job at Burger King and was getting ready for work this morning. Only if you have one of those living with you would you understand how a hairbrush came to be on my computer desk. We used to find lego blocks and stuff in the fridge years ago. If he'd been here today, I'm sure he wouldn't have had any idea how the brush got here. The question is, did he brush his hair in front of the bathroom mirror and carry the brush in here or did he brush his hair at the computer? There's no way he saw his reflection in this backlit HD monitor.

I found an RCA 12AX7A today in my travels. It's one of the flat-sided mica ones that usually test weak. I have hope for this one... it looks brand-new. I also found a couple of RCA consoles but I left my phone at home and couldn't look them up or at least record the model number. I can't remember those things to save my life. One was a huge console model that had a 2x6V6 amp with a 5Y3 rectifier and a single 6C4. There was what I assume was a preamp for the turntable on another board but it was all 7-pin mini's. The other console was on four spindly legs and looked like it came off the set of the Dick Van Dyke show. I couldn't find a tube chart anywhere on it or a price either. This was one of those indoor flea markets with booth numbers and the dude who was working there thought the price was $200. I was thinking more like $20 or $30. I may go back and check it out. It was ultra-cool. It had two speakers in the front of the cabinet that were finished in the same wood as the exterior. One of them detached as an extension speaker. Judging by the construction, I'm pretty sure it was one of the nicer stereo rigs and early enough that it was probably full of 12AX7's and 6BQ5's. You can't tell with RCA stuff though. I think they tried to design an entirely new preamp and power amp with every console stereo model they made.


----------



## GIBSON67

MartyStrat54 said:


> Guy has a couple of these on EBAY and claims they are rare. I guess he hasn't seen the Ei's that were sold by RCA that say, "Made in Gt. Britain" on them.
> 
> And RCA got busted for it.



I got a pair of these for cheap - RCA that say Gt. Britain. There are no Mullard codes on them, but they are not smooth plate EI's, either? What the hell are they, ribbed plate EI's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Can you post some clear pictures of it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just got my 12 JAN GE 12AX7WA's in and they are new without the original box. They all test above 32-32. A killer batch of tubes form the mid 50's. You know, the real WA's. Back then a WA was a highly tested and screened 12AX7 for military use. These is why almost all of them have a balanced A and B section. I like a GE over an RCA.

Just got 25 high gain Raytheon Black Plates in from my New Jersey wholesaler.

Also bought some tubes off of Gameshound and they all were excellent. Amperex, Mullard and Gray Plate Sylvania's that tested on average 40-40. Great PI tubes.


----------



## MM54

Sweet deals, Marty. I can't wait until I have the spare cash to get back into hunting down great deals... it's a good hobby


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I need to get with you when I get some cash built up in my PayPal account. I can't find a single Raytheon black plate anywhere. When I sold that big Ampeg monster, I put a ribbed plate Tele in V1 and a Raytheon in V2. It sounded so much better that way - I couldn't cheat the guy out of that tone. Plus, he paid for a nice weekender in Chattanooga. It's a strange but entertaining place.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well what happens with me is I buy a lot of Black Plates and I only sell the high gain one's for use in V2. I have around 45 Black Plates that are in the 24-24 to 26-26 range. If you don't need a high gain one, I can make you a deal.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, sounds good. Shoot me a PM with some prices.


----------



## MM54

Since we're on the topic of preamp tubes (oddly enough for this thread), I have a short story - earlier today I was picking out a couple 12AX7's to take with me to school as spare, and I came across a late 70's-style RCA box I didn't remember. It had been re-marked (by me) to say 12AX7 - upon opening it up, a 50's black-plate RCA presented itself; after some thinking, I realized it was my first NOS tube, tucked away on my shelf (I put it back)


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, sounds good. Shoot me a PM with some prices.



PM sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Matt, I never really got a taste for the RCA Black Plates. To me, the Raytheon was hands down the best. To bad they only made them from late 59 to summer of 64. I would love to find a junk organ from 1962 loaded with Baldwin labeled Black Plates.

Now some tubes I have that are interesting are the Sylvania short BP's. Everyone that I have come across tests just above good. I don't know why that is? Something tells me a new one wouldn't test much higher. I like to swap them out for 12AY7's in a V1 slot. They create that Fender "bell chime" tone very well. I think I still have four of them.


----------



## MM54

Since it seems to have slipped my mind and we're here, what's the deal with a 12AZ7? I seem to have one sitting here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and there had to be a reason why the big organ manufacturer's all used the Raytheon BP's. Some hifi users like them over a Telelfunken.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's 12AZ7 is another sub for the 12AX7. Has a 9A pinout. Used in some of the later tube stereos.

I just went over to EBAY and they go for $7.50 on up to $40.00 per tube.

Saw one that had "12AZ7" on the top side of the tube. It was an RFT. Gee, that RFT was called a lot of different things. LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

A 12AZ7 is a good sub for a 12AT7, but it has a little more gain and sound better in a guitar amp. They do make a good cathode follower tube as per mickeydg's advice.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yep a 12AZ7 almost just like a 12AT7 with amplification factor of 60, but has a heater-cathode of about 200 volts and uses a little more heater current at .45A


----------



## Dogs of Doom

If you guys have an inventory/database w/ @ least some general pricing, I'd be interested...

Mostly interested in 12AX7 & EL34. I could use a couple 12AT7's for the PI in my EL34 50/50.


----------



## MM54

Well 12AX7's range from costing as much as a bag of potato chips to more than I paid for my car, and EL34 quads range from ~$80 to slightly more than infinitely expensive.

What're you looking for?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dogs of Doom said:


> If you guys have an inventory/database w/ @ least some general pricing, I'd be interested...
> 
> Mostly interested in 12AX7 & EL34. I could use a couple 12AT7's for the PI in my EL34 50/50.



PM sent.


----------



## ckr1231

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Matt, I never really got a taste for the RCA Black Plates. To me, the Raytheon was hands down the best. To bad they only made them from late 59 to summer of 64. I would love to find a junk organ from 1962 loaded with Baldwin labeled Black Plates.
> 
> Now some tubes I have that are interesting are the Sylvania short BP's. Everyone that I have come across tests just above good. I don't know why that is? Something tells me a new one wouldn't test much higher. I like to swap them out for 12AY7's in a V1 slot. They create that Fender "bell chime" tone very well. I think I still have four of them.


I recently scored a Sylvania 12ax7 long black plate and a Sylvania short black plate. I haven't run em in my amps yet.
Marty--the Raytheon Bp and the Mullard lp you sold me awhile back are still going strong.


----------



## johnfv

*More "vintage" Groove Tubes?*

These are the preamp tubes in my Showman (tubes bought in early '80s). They are labeled 7025 (I attached closeups, that's more of them in the background). They sound great in the Showman, I'm hoping the experts here will tell me if they really are a US made 7025? Thanks!


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

*Re: More "vintage" Groove Tubes?*



johnfv said:


> These are the preamp tubes in my Showman (tubes bought in early '80s). They are labeled 7025 (I attached closeups, that's more of them in the background). They sound great in the Showman, I'm hoping the experts here will tell me if they really are a US made 7025? Thanks!



Tungsgram's, so not US made 7025, but nice none the less.


----------



## RiverRatt

+1. I thought Tungsram before I even read the text. I'll trade a brand-new Eurotubes-approved set of JJ pre's for them.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> +1. I thought Tungsram before I even read the text. I'll trade a brand-new Eurotubes-approved set of JJ pre's for them.


Thanks for the info guys. Alan, I may be in the minority in that I actually like JJ preamp tubes, still I'll pass on your trade offer.  I've known for a long time the tubes in this Showman are the shit simply because they sounded great. While I was working on it I was curious to learn what exactly they were so posted the pics. Back in the early '80s when I bought these, I'm not sure what I could have bought that would have been much better for a Fender. The fact that they all (including the 6L6GCs) are still going strong says a lot IMO. Kinda wish I still had the 6CA7s (even though I know I reamed them, red plated at least a couple in my 1959T). I replaced the 6CA7s with Tesla EL34s in the late '80s, the Teslas are still doing well in the 1959T.


----------



## johnfv

*OK, one more GT "vintage" from the Showman*

Here is the GT 12AT7 from my Showman. An actual US 6201? Maybe I need to put some CP tubes in V2 and V3 in the Showman and try rolling those Tungsram in some other amps?


----------



## mickeydg5

*Re: OK, one more GT "vintage" from the Showman*



johnfv said:


> Here is the GT 12AT7 from my Showman. An actual US 6201? Maybe I need to put some CP tubes in V2 and V3 in the Showman and try rolling those Tungsram in some other amps?


That GT-12AT7 looks to be a GE from the 80's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've got a 1950's GE five-star 6201 with black plates. It looks just like a 5751. It's definitely got a guitar-friendly tone. I don't really like a 12AT7 in an audio circuit. I went through a phase where I thought a 12AT7 was the shiznit in V4 of my DSL50. Then after a couple of weeks I put a high-gain 12AX7 back in it and that was the end of the 12AT7 PI tube for me.

Joe always liked 12AT7's in V1 of his amps, but he plays so loud that he's probably lost most of his hearing and doesn't know the difference. I heard the seismic geologists over in Yellowstone are afraid he's going to trigger the mega-eruption.


----------



## johnfv

It's a Fender, the 12AT7 is the PI. I also have some GT tubes labeled ECC83 from the same era (from my plexi), I'll have to post and get expert opinions on those...


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your toes. I was talking about Marshalls and basically using a 12AT7 where a 12AX7 is called for. They are fine in a circuit that's designed for a 12AT7 PI. I would consider using the black plate 6201 as a tone tube as well. It really does have the sound of a 5751 with a little less gain.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I would consider using the black plate 6201 as a tone tube as well. It really does have the sound of a 5751 with a little less gain.


Hmm... so I should try that one in V1 also? Thanks for the suggestion! My toes are intact


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, that one is a decade or two younger than the 5-Star. YMMV.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've got a 1950's GE five-star 6201 with black plates. It looks just like a 5751. It's definitely got a guitar-friendly tone. I don't really like a 12AT7 in an audio circuit. I went through a phase where I thought a 12AT7 was the shiznit in V4 of my DSL50. Then after a couple of weeks I put a high-gain 12AX7 back in it and that was the end of the 12AT7 PI tube for me.
> 
> Joe always liked 12AT7's in V1 of his amps, but he plays so loud that he's probably lost most of his hearing and doesn't know the difference. I heard the seismic geologists over in Yellowstone are afraid he's going to trigger the mega-eruption.



Yeah but with a boost hitting it. It was the combination of that made for an interesting result. By itself it was too limp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How does a 12AU7 in V1 sound with an overdrive going to it? Never did that. Never wanted a 12AT7 in V1 either.

I remember when this place was booming that some old tech came on and posted a problem with a Marshall. I joked with him about putting a 12AU7 in V1. (He complained the amp had too much gain.) He posted back that I was a genius. The 12AU7 did the trick.

Oh well, good for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Yeah but with a boost hitting it. It was the combination of that made for an interesting result. By itself it was too limp.



Just messin' with you, bud. I'd never question your tone choices - I know you know your stuff. You might really like that 6201 black plate. I threw it in that Peavey I've been dicking around with and the only word that comes to mind that describes the tone is "lush". Huge, warm cleans with plenty of bottom and enough grit on channel 2 for some smoky blues tones.

I am in desperate need of two Alnico V strat pickups for the middle and neck position, something like Fender's Texas Specials or a nice boutique wind or one of the big USA builders, anything in that same ballpark - basically I guess I'm looking for a hotter vintage wind - nothing harsh, just a smooth, warm and fat Texas tone. I know the GFS pickups are pretty cheap but they won't trade for tubes and amps. In my experience, their pups can be either hit-or-miss, too. I also need a humbucker that's better than the stock Fender MIM humbucker, like a Pearly Gates or a bright PAF-style pickup. I'd like a white 'bucker but those are rare, so I know I may have to do some voodoo to it and make it white. 

I have any number of things to trade - cash is way short right now and that's the reason for trading. If any of you have anything in your junk drawer that's close to the pickups I'm describing, let me know. I'm willing to bring out the big guns for the right deal: Mullard 12AX7 mC1 long plate, pre-war Ei ECC83, Amperex, etc., RCA 6L6GB or GC black plates; that kind of stuff.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Just messin' with you, bud. I'd never question your tone choices - I know you know your stuff. You might really like that 6201 black plate. I threw it in that Peavey I've been dicking around with and the only word that comes to mind that describes the tone is "lush". Huge, warm cleans with plenty of bottom and enough grit on channel 2 for some smoky blues tones.
> 
> I am in desperate need of two Alnico V strat pickups for the middle and neck position, something like Fender's Texas Specials or a nice boutique wind or one of the big USA builders, anything in that same ballpark - basically I guess I'm looking for a hotter vintage wind - nothing harsh, just a smooth, warm and fat Texas tone. I know the GFS pickups are pretty cheap but they won't trade for tubes and amps. In my experience, their pups can be either hit-or-miss, too. I also need a humbucker that's better than the stock Fender MIM humbucker, like a Pearly Gates or a bright PAF-style pickup. I'd like a white 'bucker but those are rare, so I know I may have to do some voodoo to it and make it white.
> 
> I have any number of things to trade - cash is way short right now and that's the reason for trading. If any of you have anything in your junk drawer that's close to the pickups I'm describing, let me know. I'm willing to bring out the big guns for the right deal: Mullard 12AX7 mC1 long plate, pre-war Ei ECC83, Amperex, etc., RCA 6L6GB or GC black plates; that kind of stuff.



I know you're just bust'n my balls but I want the other guys to realize when they try an AT7 in V1 and find it not so good that I had added another variable into the equation or chain.

The only extra pups I have sit'n around are EMG's 81/85's. Not PAF like although the new 57B is a lot closer and suppose to be their PAF offering. I actually really like it. I prefer a good passive but the 57 I'm gonna keep and not change the EC1000 over to passives for awhile now. It was my last active pup I wanted to try and also a new item by EMG. They did good on this one IMO.

Anyways I bet someone here has something you are looking at getting. I'm trying to keep myself from PMing Marty for one of those GE 12AX7WA's!


----------



## solarburn

Alan. I have a 5V4 rectumfriar and its a Raytheon BP. I tried it in the Monza at one time to see what lowering the B+ voltage would sound like. I didn't like it. So I have no use for it and its sitting here wasting away. Can you put it to use?


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn't I send that rectifier to you long ago just for that experiment? I know we talked about it. Won't a 5V4 sub for a GZ34 in a pinch? If so, yeah I might have a use for it. Let me do a little research. I can't remember rectifier specs because I hardly ever have to deal with them. 

I've been kicking around the idea of converting that demon-possessed Pro Jr. over to a turret board layout and mounting all the controls, connectors and sockets on the chassis. The project I've been looking at adds a GZ34. I sold all my Mullard GZ34's though just about as fast as I'd get them. I've got bunches of 5U4GB's, 5Y3GT's, and a few EZ80 and EZ81's. I have enough spare trannys to pull it off no matter what, but it seems to me like it would be more suited to an EZ81 rectifier. I'll get back to you if I need it. Hell, I may even have one already.

Some of the Dimarzio Area pickups might work for single coils. I've had a set of Texas Specials before and loved the tone. I guess the humbucker would almost have to be a low-output PAF design. I've tried EMG's more than once; I just can't learn to love 'em.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you go with an Area in the neck/middle slots, the bridge can't be too hot or else it will jump in volume when you move the selector switch.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm probably going to try those flat-pole American Standard pickups from that 1991 harness I have. I can't get anybody interested in buying it, so I'd might as well get some use out of it. IIRC all three of those pickups are right at 6K. I have them in a white partscaster right now and they aren't bad. A little tight-sounding, but they work.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Didn't I send that rectifier to you long ago just for that experiment? I know we talked about it. Won't a 5V4 sub for a GZ34 in a pinch? If so, yeah I might have a use for it. Let me do a little research. I can't remember rectifier specs because I hardly ever have to deal with them.
> 
> I've been kicking around the idea of converting that demon-possessed Pro Jr. over to a turret board layout and mounting all the controls, connectors and sockets on the chassis. The project I've been looking at adds a GZ34. I sold all my Mullard GZ34's though just about as fast as I'd get them. I've got bunches of 5U4GB's, 5Y3GT's, and a few EZ80 and EZ81's. I have enough spare trannys to pull it off no matter what, but it seems to me like it would be more suited to an EZ81 rectifier. I'll get back to you if I need it. Hell, I may even have one already.
> 
> Some of the Dimarzio Area pickups might work for single coils. I've had a set of Texas Specials before and loved the tone. I guess the humbucker would almost have to be a low-output PAF design. I've tried EMG's more than once; I just can't learn to love 'em.



I got it from a seller down in Cali. It will sub for a GZ34 but it lowers B+ voltage. Browns it up. Let me know. No charge Bruther. I figured if you get a project you could put it to use.

I learned to like EMG's...to a point...for hard rock and up. I feel the 57 covers lower gain stuff better than the other EMG's but if you don't like em' ya don't like em'. Like I said I prefer the dynamics of good passives. For hard rock though I start losing the preference for passives over the 57's.


----------



## RiverRatt

If you're giving it away, I'd be stupid not to take it  I'll send you some $$ for shipping. The office address is fine. Or if you want, I'll send you a couple of pre's to play around with. That black plate GE 6201 is a motherfucker of a tube. Get this: I had a Peavey Valve King VK-112 practically fall into my lap recently. I've just been having fun with it, trying odd tubes, like a pair of KT66's, 5751's, etc... I put the GE black plate 6201 in V1, a Mullard in V2 and a NOS Sylvania 5751 black plate in V3. THIS AMP ROCKS! The clean channel is = Fender now and the gain channel so much more articulate and dynamic. I was just bitching about odd tubes in place of 12AX7s, but in this case it pays off big time, probably because it's based off a Fender circuit to begin with. I just hope I didn't fuck it up. I took the KT66's out when I started noticing a little bit of a hiccup now and then. I put a pair of Sylvania 6L6GC's in it and the tone is still great - maybe even a little better with the 6L6's. I still get a little weirdness now and again, though. I also got my JTM610 going again. 

I've been having so much amp trouble for the last few months, I need to trace everything back to the breaker box and see if I'm having some sort of problem with my house wiring. Either that or there's something else on that circuit that's causing an occasional spike or a ground fault. 

I'm tired of amps for awhile. I've been troubleshooting a couple of them since back before Christmas. I just want them to go away for a few weeks and let me just play my guitars. Maybe I can tackle them later with a fresh view and a little more enthusiasm.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> If you're giving it away, I'd be stupid not to take it  I'll send you some $$ for shipping. The office address is fine. Or if you want, I'll send you a couple of pre's to play around with. That black plate GE 6201 is a motherfucker of a tube. Get this: I had a Peavey Valve King VK-112 practically fall into my lap recently. I've just been having fun with it, trying odd tubes, like a pair of KT66's, 5751's, etc... I put the GE black plate 6201 in V1, a Mullard in V2 and a NOS Sylvania 5751 black plate in V3. THIS AMP ROCKS! The clean channel is = Fender now and the gain channel so much more articulate and dynamic. I was just bitching about odd tubes in place of 12AX7s, but in this case it pays off big time, probably because it's based off a Fender circuit to begin with. I just hope I didn't fuck it up. I took the KT66's out when I started noticing a little bit of a hiccup now and then. I put a pair of Sylvania 6L6GC's in it and the tone is still great - maybe even a little better with the 6L6's. I still get a little weirdness now and again, though. I also got my JTM610 going again.
> 
> I've been having so much amp trouble for the last few months, I need to trace everything back to the breaker box and see if I'm having some sort of problem with my house wiring. Either that or there's something else on that circuit that's causing an occasional spike or a ground fault.
> 
> I'm tired of amps for awhile. I've been troubleshooting a couple of them since back before Christmas. I just want them to go away for a few weeks and let me just play my guitars. Maybe I can tackle them later with a fresh view and a little more enthusiasm.



Shipping will be nominal. Noth'n to consider. It wasn't expensive. No need to send anything. Got a great lineup in my OR and having a blast. Besides I hate to see a good NOS tube go to waste. Just ain't right!

That's cool you got that Peavey. Those tubes really made a difference course we know they can. Never played a valve king. Glad you got the JTM going again. Those amps sound very good. I often wonder about our power here too. I need to check it with my MM at the outlet and see what it's generating.


----------



## RiverRatt

I checked mine last fall and it was always perfectly within specs. The JTM was only a bad power cable. I haven't had any time to troubleshoot it because I thought it would be a major undertaking. I really need to throw every cable in here away and start over.


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## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I checked mine last fall and it was always perfectly within specs. The JTM was only a bad power cable. I haven't had any time to troubleshoot it because I thought it would be a major undertaking. I really need to throw every cable in here away and start over.



I replaced all my instrument/patch cables recently. One of mine was ebbing and flowing. My speaker cables are fine. Replaced them last year.


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## RiverRatt

When I throw away an instrument cable, I take the plugs off and make a speaker cable with them. There are lots of household cables, speaker wire, etc. that make good speaker cables.


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## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> When I throw away an instrument cable, I take the plugs off and make a speaker cable with them. There are lots of household cables, speaker wire, etc. that make good speaker cables.



Funny you mention that. I recently upgraded to 3 prong power cable on my old Showman. I have the old 2 wire cable (it's not the original, it was a heavy duty one I installed when I was 16). I seem to have a sentimental attachment to that old cable and it's still good wire - planning to make a speaker cable out of it


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I am attempting to convert a white humbucker with a ceramic magnet to a 4-conductor alnico. The magnet is from a screwed up Ibanez Super 70 and AFAIK is an A8. The pickup measures 8.4k stock. Also, the A8 magnet is roughly half as thick as the ceramic. Are there any problems I'm likely to run into' I think I know enough about it to make a decent go of it. I'm putting a thin coat of silicone gel where the magnet touches the bobbin to help keep it from slipping. I didn't have any wire that was fine enough so I cannabilized a cat5 Ethernet cable. Anything else I need to be concerned with?


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## MartyStrat54

You ought to PM MHD about what you are attempting.


----------



## RiverRatt

Too late 

All the leads are reading as they should. I just need to wire it up and see how it sounds. I even got the tape back on it so that you can't tell it was ever apart. I think I may wait until tomorrow to wire it up. This is my first pickup alteration. If it sounds good, so much the better. I don't even have a clue where the white humbucker came from in the first place. It just turned up. I probably picked it up out of somebody's junk box. I still have enough friends in the business that they will let me come into their shop and pick through their guitar parts. A few weeks ago I bought a complete ESP LTD guitar for $30. It was in pieces, but I still thought it was a good buy. The body is shit but the neck a d hardware is decent enough.


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## MartyStrat54

Well A8 isn't as hot as A5, but it will be a lot warmer sounding than the ceramic. Should be a pretty nice pickup if it originally read 8.4K. Maybe similar to a Hot Gold.


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## solarburn

That coke bottle's on the way Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That coke bottle's on the way Alan.



Thanks Joe! I'll put something together for you to try out and send it along. I have a bunch of tubes listed in the classifieds, but I don't intend to sell every one of them. If I start getting too low, I'll pull the listing. I was thinking about a few exotic 12AT7 variants.


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## solarburn

Cool man. Hope you can find a use for the rectifier toob...she's a Black Plate too. Most BP's I've used...12AX7's, 5751's and AT7's have given positive tone experiences. I know a rectifier tube is not a " tone" tube but hopefully it will be healthy and durable. Plus you always have side projects going that I dig reading about. Great to see you experimenting.


----------



## GIBSON67

MartyStrat54 said:


> Can you post some clear pictures of it?



Here's the best I could do for pics...thanks in advance.

The RCA's are in the middle and Mullards on either side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Any RCA tube with Gt. Britain on it was a buy out made after 1974. Those RCA's have a seamed top and look to be the same construction as the Mullards. As the demand for tubes lessened, tube manufacturer's were willing to do just about anything to move inventory. I've seen plenty of Mullards without any codes. I also have sold post 1974 RCA/Mullards before. Some have "Gt. Britain" on the tube and some say, "Made in Gt. Britain." The RCA/Ei tubes only say, "Gt. Britain" on the tube. Of course, these will be smooth plates only.

And something else to consider. While the big transistor takeover was in the mid-60's here in the USA, it took another decade for 3rd World countries to get that sort of technology. The demand for tubes in Europe was still strong in 1978.


----------



## mickeydg5

Some Philips branded EI tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, the shipping is a deal-breaker. I like the sound of the older Ei, and those have that smoky look that the older ones had.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes the sellers shipping from Svitzalund is a little steep.
Some good pictures though.


----------



## Oatie

I been collecting the old tubes for a long time,
A bunch of tubes.;
Some Mullard 1965 era,











I got these great old Phillips 5751 tube lot, amazing tone.


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## mickeydg5

That is a lot of nice glass.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## RiverRatt

Oatie, that is an incredible collection! Can you adopt me?


----------



## Lowlife

...or sell a few


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well A8 isn't as hot as A5, but it will be a lot warmer sounding than the ceramic. Should be a pretty nice pickup if it originally read 8.4K. Maybe similar to a Hot Gold.



Well, I screwed up the humbucker. One of the coil wires came unsoldered somehow and while I was trying to fix that, another wire broke. Anyway, one of them pulled free while I was working on the other so I pretty much bricked it. So, I went with the only other white humbucker I knew of; the one that was in the Strat to begin with. I didn't even unsolder it, I just took the back off and put the A8 magnet in it. I was a little surprised to find an AlNiCo magnet already in the pickup! I thought Fender used cheap ceramics, but this pickup had the Fender spaghetti logo embossed on the plate, so maybe it's the USA model? I don't know Fender humbuckers for shit.

I had a couple of dead AlNiCo Tele pickups - a bridge and a neck. I popped the pole pieces out and got a couple of Fender ceramic single-coils, took the bar magnets off the back, and they were exactly the same bobbin that Fender uses on the USA pickups, down to the number embossed in the plastic. I put the A5 pole pieces in those pickups and ended up with one that read 7K and the other was 7.2K. Believe it or not, they work pretty well in the guitar. It took awhile to dial them in, but they are really close to what I wanted: some hot Texas Special clones.

The humbucker sounds way more crunchy now. Before, it was a little harsh and thin, but now it has a distinct Gibson vibe to it. I know this isn't the place to be discussing pickups and I'll shut up about them after this post. I'm really happy with the way this little experiment worked out. I knew there was some reason to save all those oddball pickups, even the Ibanez Super 70 without a baseplate. The A8 magnet totally transformed that Fender humbucker.

Just to make this post legit; I had an old 1956 Mullard mC1 that turned up in that last batch of tubes I got last fall. With a minimum good score on the TV-7 being 32/32, this tube tested 22/32. I decided to try it out tonight before it hit the trash bin and surprise! It sounds great! I'm using it as the V1 tube in my Tweaker 15 head and it sounds like a good, strong Mullard. I guess there are some things a tube tester can't tell you.


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## MartyStrat54

Oatie, where do you live?

You must have had a good contact through GE and RCA.

Great collection of glass. I'm gonna call you Mr. 12AX7.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Oatie said:


> I been collecting the old tubes for a long time,
> A bunch of tubes.;
> Some Mullard 1965 era,
> 
> 
> I got these great old Phillips 5751 tube lot, amazing tone.


----------



## guitargoalie

Hey guys, I'm looking for a few new tubes to try in v1 and v2 of my dsl50. I've rolled JJ's, eh, and chinese and found eh muddy and dull, jj dark and dull, and chinese on the brighter side. I found v2 made a bigger impact on the lead channel, while v1 affected clean more, I'd prefer something bright for the cleans, and full with some high roll off for lead. 

Considering tung sol 12ax7, preferred series 7025, or mullard reissue 12ax7. Any of these fit the bill?


----------



## RiverRatt

You need a Telefunken or maybe an Ei for V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. That combination is perfect for what you're describing.


----------



## solarburn

Second that combo and add its not a gamble but a tried and true tone tweak on a DSL50 & 100. You have a good set of power tubes and it gets even better.


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## MartyStrat54

That will do it.


----------



## guitargoalie

Thanks guys, I'm looking on ebay, and there's quite a few various labels and types that I'm not aware of when I search "raytheon black plate 12ax7" or telefunken or Ei 12ax7, could someone point me in the right direction and what a good price for these is. Marty, do you have an ebay store?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No, I don't have an EBAY store, just my website and my Facebook page.

Right now there seems to be quite a few 12AX7's for sale on EBAY and the prices have actually dropped. I saw a nice pair of smooth plate Tele's go for under $60. That's a good price. The Black Plates are getting harder to find. They were only made for five or six years and 1964 was the last year of manufacture. (I think they started production in the summer of 1959.) One of my buddies had about 10 of them for sale on EBAY. They were what I would call a slightly lopsided, medium gain tubes. I got 25 in, but I sent them back as they did not meet my criteria. I already have a bunch of slightly lopsided, medium gain BP's. I didn't need 25 more.

My advice is to keep watching EBAY. If you find something you like, post a link here and we will give you our opinion. I don't think any of us regular guys would try to outbid you.


----------



## mickeydg5

I watch ebay sometimes and pay attention to descriptions. There are more tubes now because there are more sellers. I notice a price drop on average because any seller can just sell or buy a tester and give some numbers claiming tested. People still look for reputable sellers and bid accordingly for the most part. If a tube is untested it usually sells for less unless it is of a more rare variety in which some are willing to take chances.

Example of stuff to notice:
A seller auctioning 12AX7s with consistent scores of 2500 -3000 umhos. There really aren't any testers that are designed to read them in that range. Most read these tubes in the 1000 - 1700 range as good with most minimums well below 1000.

That means the tester is not within its calibration standards.

But a reputable seller with a good tester(s) usually demands higher prices.

See what I am saying.


----------



## guitargoalie

Here's a couple I've found, I have no idea what separates a $45 pair from a $110 one, or how well these are tested

EI 12AX7 ECC83 Silver Plate Tube Yugoslavia Telefunken | eBay

EI 12AX7 ECC83 Copper Posts Tube Yugoslavia Telefunken | eBay

EI 12AX7 Tube | eBay

1 12AX7A Raytheon Baldwin Tube Black Plate 10 Avail | eBay

2 Raytheon 12AX7A Black Plate Vacuum Tubes | eBay

1959 Raytheon 12AX7A Blackplate Tube ECC83 Baldwin Organ Tested Hickok 539C | eBay

Baldwin Raytheon 12AX7A ECC83 Black Plate Tested | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't really care for any of the Ei listings. The guy with the first two listings is confusing. The line that starts with a fermata (upside down U with a dot in the middle) is the factory date code. The old code was FYM; for example, a Mullard made in the Blackburn factory in March of 1958 would have the code B8C (B=Blackburn; 8=1958; C=March). In 1960, they changed to a four-digit date code that was the same as the old code except they added the week number to the end. AFAIK Ei followed that code up into the 1970's and continued to use a code system but I'm not sure exactly what format they followed. I do know they made those silver plate tubes in the late 90's through about 2003 when the company folded. The newer Ei tubes can sound good, but you really should be searching for the older ones.


----------



## mickeydg5

What do you guys think?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Four-Ei-Pinched-Base-Pre-War-12AX7-ECC83-Vacuum-Tubes-NOS-Yugoslavia-RARE-/310560651533?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item484edb790d


----------



## RiverRatt

I picked this one up on eBay back in December for $13 shipped. It tests as-new, looks new, and sounds incredible. These kind of deals aren't as common as they were a few years ago, but you can still find them occasionally if you know what to look for.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> What do you guys think?
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Four-Ei-Pinched-Base-Pre-War-12AX7-ECC83-Vacuum-Tubes-NOS-Yugoslavia-RARE-/310560651533?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item484edb790d



I think that they are the old ones and are still at a good price. $10 to $15 each would be a pretty good deal, especially with free shipping. Those are the ones I was talking about.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Double post.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, did you see the guy selling the pair of 1961 BP's? He said both tested at over 100% on a B and K 600. See anything wrong with that? On a B and K, anything over 22 represents a minimum good value for a 12AX7. What is 100%? 30? 35? I extrapolated the scoring system on a B and K and I figure 100% to be around 31/32. This is based on 22 representing a 70% good tube. When a seller doesn't state what the tester actually reads, that is a red flag waving.

The 1959 BP tested on a 539C is more accurate and represents about an 82% tube. 

On the last BP listing (Baldwin), we go back to the mystery game. 

"It tests very strong on a B and K 650 transconductance tester."

What is "very strong?" 35/35? Put the damn numbers down. 

I think some of these B and K owners are afraid of trying to explain how the B and K tests 12AX7's and they try to "dumb" it down. It's no different than someone saying, "Tests very strong on my military TV/7." (Here a minimum good is 32/32.)

The guy who has 10 BP's wants $7 to mail a tube. WTF? There again, a reputable dealer would take the time to list the actual test scores for all ten tubes. I mean if I was buying one, I would want the highest reading. Makes sense, huh?

Guitargaolie-I would try to find a Mullard, Telefunken or Amperex before looking at the Ei's. Some runs of Ei's were noisy and the silver plate isn't anything spectacular. You want a premium European tube in V1 and a BP in V2. This is what I sell all the time. It is a formula that works extremely well.

:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

MICKEY-Ei's are okay tubes if you get a good one. Ei was around for a long time. When I bought my original DSL 401 in 1999, it came with all Ei tubes. In 1999, that was probably Marshall's best choice. You have to take into consideration how old the equipment was. I'm not sure what was saved, but let's face it, "the old Telefunken" equipment was pretty old when Ei got a hold of it. This is something I have addressed before. Most USA tube lines were at full production in 1935. The 12AX7 came out in 1947. In 1967, the machinery was 20 years old. Did it make a difference? Some say, "Yes." When I put a Bugle Boy (1959) in V1, a Raytheon BP in V2 and two GE's in V3 and V4 of the 401 and put RCA 6BQ5's in the power section, that amp sounded so much better than the all Ei lineup. Just my 2 cents.


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## mickeydg5

The four EI tube aution is interesting because of the low price so far.

Torrmark has a nice tester. Is a Raytheon black plate at 80%ish worth $30 to you though?

I do not like it either when they give a tester and just say "test strong". You can always contact them and ask questions but still cannot compare them to other tubes they test and sell.

A B&K 600 is only an emmision tester so you would be taking chances there at $25 a piece.


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## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> MICKEY-Ei's are okay tubes if
> 
> When I put a Bugle Boy (1959) in V1, a Raytheon BP in V2 and two GE's in V3 and V4 of the 401 and put RCA 6BQ5's in the power section, that amp sounded so much better than the all Ei lineup. Just my 2 cents.


 
I hear you. I did not mean I was interested. That was intended for guitargoalie's interest.

I think I may have one or two EI smooth plates in a box but do not remember if I had any dates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it took me four tries to get the tester I have now and I sent it in and had it all checked out and calibrated. All the caps are new as well. How accurate do you think an uncalibrated B and K 600 is? Most of the testers are one's that have been bought and if they work...they must be accurate.


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## MartyStrat54

Well you know how JJ is still trying to have their product associated with Tesla? Ei's are usually sold with the following. "Made on Telefunken equipment. These smooth plates have the same basic tone as the original Telefunken." Well it got so bad that Ei sold thousands of tubes with the Telefunken logo printed on them. Who knows who got them to stop. There are also some Russian military tubes that were labeled as Telefunken, but these were easy to spot as fakes. Not so with the Ei's. Ei/Telefunken's did not have the <> on the bottom of the tube. Ei's got to be like RFT's. Anyone could get whatever they wanted printed on the tubes. Re: See RCA after 1974.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it took me four tries to get the tester I have now and I sent it in and had it all checked out and calibrated. All the caps are new as well. How accurate do you think an uncalibrated B and K 600 is? Most of the testers are one's that have been bought and if they work...they must be accurate.


 
That is what I mean. They got one and if it lights up it must be working.

How many actually go throught the trouble that you did with a tester? I bet it is a rather small percentage.

I have looked at your numbers Marty. I trust them. 
Who did you send it to for check and calibration if you do not mind me asking?


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## MartyStrat54

B K 707 700 Dyna Jet Tube Tester Professional Calibration Service | eBay

He is in Washington state. Very good service. Mine went out after three months and I sent it back to him and he fixed it for free and paid the return shipping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a 707 for sale. This is one of the one's you have to look out for. Seller is from Arkysaw. No returns accepted. He had his HAM Radio buddy calibrate it, but the HAM operator "didn't have any tubes to check." WTF? "ALL" HAM operators have tubes, unless they are young and using SS radios. The old guys like the "boat anchor" stuff loaded with tubes. On top of that, it sounds like you have to Jerry rig it to make it work. "It also shows the resistors that are needed to jumper across pins to attain proper adjustments and readings." WTF is that all about? The external lead for top mounted B+ (nipple tip tubes), he refers to as a "grounding cap lead." He really knows his stuff. In the end, he basically is saying you are taking a risk at buying this. Who wants to spend $300 for a book shelf item? Here is the description.

_Antique tester from an era long gone in the iPod age. I sent it out to a local General Class Ham Radio Operator to check out and calibrate. He gave me a print out of the procedure done, for future owners to recalibrate as needed. It also shows the resistors that are needed to jumper across pins to attain proper adjustments and readings. It appears to be a simple set of procedures, needing only a few dollars in resistors and a simple AC volt meter to accomplish. It went through the calibration procedure just fine with proper indications and should be just fine, but he did not have any tubes to test on it. Tube radios are no longer made and getting scarce and are antiques<p>This unit was in a working electronics shop many years ago, was kept proper care of, but not kept in new pristine condition. Normal age discoloration and light staining of the fabric on the case, and the face plate clear coat has a tinge of yellowing a bit. All in all seems to be in fairly good general condition. If you are into collecting antique tube radios or TVs this may be a valuable tool. Or at least an addition to your collection from back in the day. 3 tube cross reference books included as well as the grounding cap lead. _

(I wonder what those old caps are like and you want to solder those #45 bulbs to the socket as they are part of the test circuit and if they are just a push fit, they can read erroneously.) Boy oh boy. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/B-K-Model-7...pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item27cec8dc4a


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## mickeydg5

I do not recall his name (ID), maybe I have seen it on ebay items though.
He seems to be all about 700 and 707 testers and does have a cool description.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah, 3 months after I had it serviced it started reading real high. I sent it back to him and he replaced the sensitivity pot at no charge. His last name is Mabry. I think the "MW" stands for Michael William.


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## MartyStrat54

Time to call it a night. Most time I spent on the forum in months.


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## mickeydg5

Some of the solid state ham equipment took up a lot of real estate too. But you would think he may have some tube equipment and tubes around. Ah, some people tossed tube stuff aside as if it were all obsolete and turned to solid state.

I think the resistors and instructions were for calibration procedure when using modern test equipment/meters. Most old equipment required specific testing equipment of that bygone era to be used for setup as described in maintenance and calibration procedures and manuals.


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## Dogs of Doom

I bought a couple EI tubes NOS a few months back.











It says made in Yugoslavia, but also has a UK name:

PM Components Ltd.

I guess they are a distributor:

http://pmcomponents.co.uk/


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## mickeydg5

EI is the manufacturer. They are in Yugoslavia.
PM Components Ltd, headquartered in the UK, is the major distributor for the tubes you have.

How do those Elites compare to other tubes you have? List the tubes please. 

Thank you.


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## Dogs of Doom

They are ok, I tried them, but didn't get what I was looking for. I dig my Telefunken I got from Alan. I have some (12AX7) SED =C=, a couple Telefunken (ribbed), a whole bunch of Philips I robbed from my SVT 12AX7s & 6550s I'm running in my Ampeg VL-501. I'm running the Telefunken in V1 & am going to install a better one I just got in my JMP-1.

I have RCA 12AX7A, RFT (Poland) ECC83, Mullard I61 & a pair of RFT EL34's

other than that CP Genalex, Mullards, Svet's, 'quangs, Ruby, JJ & Tung Sols

here's a snap of the bottom of one of those EIs:


----------



## brp

Do I remember right that one of you posted in here that any NOS 12AX7 that says Westinghouse on it is a very desirable tube to have?
I think I remember that but could be wrong about it being Westinghouse that was mentioned in that quote I vaguely recall.

I have a chance to get 1:
" ENGLAND
87-05
WESTINGHOUSE
937 ELECTRONIC TUBE "

and a:
" 12AX7A/ECC83/7025
ALP JM
PHILIPS ECG
MADE IN U.S.A. "






for $30 plus $9 shipping so around $20 each, claimed to be tested good.
Thoughts?


----------



## mickeydg5

The ECG looks like a typical Philips/Sylvania and the Westinghouse appears to be a late EI smooth plate.
I think those are average prices with shipping included, sometimes you can get them cheaper.
Tonewise I cannot give an opinion.


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## MartyStrat54

Okay, we are looking at some post 1974 tubes here. After Philips sold all of its European holdings, they bought Sylvania's tube division and turned it into Philips Electronic Communications Group, or ECG. When Philips bought Sylvania, there was an immense inventory of tubes. Most were sold with the Sylvania labels intact and then Philips started relabeling the tubes. Philips acquired the US military contract for tubes. A lot of the older Sylvania and ECG tubes were made stouter than a regular 12AX7. These tubes worked great in an aircraft, but tend to be a little stiff sonically. That ECG 12AX7 is probably one of those tubes. Some sellers who don't know shit will actually try to make these tubes out to being something superior. They aren't. The best military tubes are the old ones made in the early 50's and 60's called the "WA," "WB" and the rare "WC." These are great sounding, highly reliable tubes with matched triodes.

The Westinghouse "England" tube is another example of a late 70's buy out tube. All the USA manufacturer's had shut down their lines, but there was still an ample demand for tubes, so the American's bought out tubes by the thousands from the European and British makers. (As I said earlier, tubes were still popular over in Europe in 1974. It took over a decade before the European consumers turned over to solid state gear and a lot of consumers were poor and hung on to their old tube equipment.) 

Now, because of the Cold War, it would be bad for business to sell tubes to Americans from certain Communist countries. So what all of the US makers did was have British wholesalers relabel RFT and Ei tubes with "England" or "Gt. Britain" on the tubes. RCA did this a lot and finally got busted for it. (Of course this prompted American companies to put in very small print on the box, "Country of origin printed on tube." The print on the tube required a magnifying glass in most cases. Most consumers rarely saw this if a TV repairman installed the tube. Some consumers were shocked to find out their favorite radio had East Germany tubes in it.)

Out of those two tubes, I would use the Westinghouse in V1 and the ECG in the PI.


----------



## brp

Thank you very much for the detailed run down.


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## MM54

Marty needs to write a book


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## MartyStrat54

Well it gets really complex about how the tube companies ran things after they quit making tubes.

Also, did the EPA make Philips quit using the toxic chemicals in their tube production?

I got screwed on some Philips ECG power tubes that were falsely advertized on EBAY. When I got them, they were relabeled Russian military tubes. I sent them back and got my refund. The asshole had them back up for sale using the same ad in about three days after getting them back. This is the sort of stuff that was going on in the late 70's. Philips ran out of their inventory of Sylvania tubes and started getting them from Russia and Soviet countries. Peavey bought a huge stash of tubes from Sylvania and was able to crawl into the early 80's with their amps still sporting Sylvania glass.


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## mickeydg5

I just bought me a TV-2B/U.

It looks to be in great condition in the pictures. I bet it is going to work great too. 

Very, .


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## MartyStrat54

Cool Mickey!


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## wakjob

mickeydg5 said:


> I just bought me a TV-2B/U.
> 
> It looks to be in great condition in the pictures. I bet it is going to work great too.
> 
> Very, .



What's a fair price for one of those?


----------



## mickeydg5

The Hickok TV-2 series is one of the more complicated dynamic mutual conductance military testers. Lately they have been fetching anywhere from $500 to $1000 with $800 being a median but I saw one sell for about $1100 a while back. The seller was letting it go as for parts or repair because they could not properly test it. But this thing looks to be in great shape. I had been waiting for one like this at a good price so I snaged the thing because it was cheap.


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## MartyStrat54

Well I'm confident you can fix it if needed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Buddy of mine sent these pics. Anyone know where a "Made in Holland" tube with a 2 rib plate was made? I can't find any 2 rib tubes. This was also posted over at the Metro Amp Forum.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I'm confident you can fix it if needed.





I Can Fix It - YouTube


----------



## mickeydg5

I CAN FIX IT!


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## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Buddy of mine sent these pics. Anyone know where a "Made in Holland" tube with a 2 rib plate was made? I can't find any 2 rib tubes. This was also posted over at the Metro Amp Forum.



Um... try looking at some Toshiba pics.


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## MartyStrat54

Alan did you get my PM to you?


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## MartyStrat54

Alan, you nailed it. It is a 70's Toshiba. The two rib plate is the signature feature.


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## RiverRatt

I knew it was a Toshiba the instant I saw the last photo. Toshiba 12AX7's always have those two large holes in the bottom mica between the plates.

I did get your PM but I haven't had time to elaborate on it. I'm taking care of that now.


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## MartyStrat54

I can always count on you for IDing a tube.


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## MartyStrat54

Alan, I sent you another PM. Thanks.


----------



## thrawn86

Hey boys, how's things? Just poppin' in to say hey near the end of beer #2. Keep on rockin' in the so called Free World.


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## MartyStrat54

Beer #4 is the best. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!


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## MartyStrat54

Alan-These are old Motorola 12AX7's. I've never seen a slant top getter Motorola 12AX7. Have you? Didn't Motorola buy out all of their tubes?






Look at this picture. On the backside you can see the tube number in what looks like an RCA octagonal box.






I'm thinking these are some late 50's RCA Black Plates.


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## RiverRatt

I'd say it's either an RCA or Tung-Sol. Sometimes the only way to tell is if there's a | above the center of the octagon. The bottle shape looks more RCA than Tung-Sol. How does it test? Almost every time, the old RCA black plates will test considerably lower than Tung-Sol.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

So , what's the deal with a 7025 pre tube v/s. a standard 12Ax7A ?


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## mickeydg5

They are practically if not in some cases the same tube. Both are designed for the same task while having low noise and hum qualities.


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## MartyStrat54

When the 12AX7A came out, it replaced the 7025. Many manufacture's put 12AX7A/7025 on the tubes for a while and then after a few years they dropped the 7025 off the label.

7025's were the first 12AX7 to have spiral heating filaments which reduced tube noise. All 12AX7A's have spiral filaments.


----------



## HOT TUBES 70

Cool !!


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## MartyStrat54

Premium tube report.

I recently got an order in from Hamburg, Germany for 12 Valvo Slant Getter 12AX7's. I paid $487 for them, plus shipping. Once they arrived and I tested them, they were all gone in three days at $85 each. I had a chance to try out these tubes in my 401. What a heavy hitter! These are fantastic V1's. Right up there with a Mazda Silver Plate, but a little more mid heavy...perfect for an electric guitars frequency range. Beautiful distortion and wonderful cleans. I would love to have tried this in a Fender amp to see what the cleans sounded like.

I highly recommend this as a premium V1 tube for your amp.

Valvo Slant Getters demand way more than a Telefunken. So if you try your luck on EBAY, keep in mind that you will probably be bidding at over $65 for a tested tube.

Here is a picture courtesy of EBAY.


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## RiverRatt

I can't compete with the Valvo score, but I went out tube hunting today. I went to this town nearby that's really so far out there that it's like going back in time. There's a little jewelry store/TV and radio repair shop/music store and the guy is great with tubes. He didn't have much today, but I came out with a pair of Chinese KT66's that I have never seen before and I can't even find them on a Google image search. They are a lot shorter, the classic KT66 bulge is there but the tubes are only about half as wide as a standard KT66. They have the brand name "VAC" and that's all that's on the bottle other than "KT66" and "China". He also had a MIJ 6L6GC black plate. I've got several of these and they are superb 6L6's. I got another 6L6GC from him; a Sylvania in a really short bottle with two side getters facing toward each other. I haven't seen that before, either.

I went by an antique store where the guy was supposed to be holding some tubes for me. He had a couple of testers, one was a Hickok 535 or 539 - I can't remember which. The other was one of the point-of-sale testers. He wasn't in the shop because he'd had back surgery but I found the tubes and was going through them when he came walking back to where I was. He was out of the house only the second time since his surgery and he was heavily medicated. He had decided that he didn't want to sell any of his tube stuff as he had inherited most of it from his dad who was a repairman. He didn't want to sell any of the test equipment and he wouldn't sell the power tubes, but I brought in an old German METZ short wave radio that had separate bands for most of the major countries. All the controls were in German. He thought it might have been made by Telefunken and it did have some Telefunken tubes in it but most were pristine Valvo tubes. None of them were guitar tubes, and he really liked the radio. I ended up trading him the radio plus $10 for 13 12AX7's, one 12DW7 and three RCA 6BQ5's. Half the tubes are various GE's, but I lucked out and got a very nice Amperex Bugle Boy with most of the label intact. The rest were Sylvania, and one was a green print JHS-12AX7WA that was brand-new. Not a bad day of tube hunting at all. 

I ended up bringing all those tubes home, plus a Boss Super Overdrive SD-1 that I got from the music store for $85 cash. I could make most of that back by selling the Bugle Boy!

One thing that I regret: the music store guy had a MIJ Ibanez TS-9 that I could have probably picked up for $50-ish but I was getting near my spending limit and didn't buy it. I know it would have been worth it, and I may end up calling him by Monday and having him hold it for me. He was also trying to sell me a late 1960's Bassman head. It's the 2-channel TMB version - no master volume, blue threads in the silver grille cloth. he's wanting to get $400 for the head. Is it worth that? I'm not very familiar with the silver-face Bassman amps.

Marty, you'll appreciate this: It had a 12AX7 in V1 that was labeled RCA and had the "Made in Gt. Britain" stamp on it, but no Blackburn codes or any codes at all for that matter. It wasn't an Ei - I really have no idea what it was. It had a Philips seamed top and the silver side of the tabs was showing but not like a S&H tube. It will remain a mystery I guess unless I come up with $400.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was the "fake" RCA a smooth or ribbed plate? RFT made smooth plate copies of Telefunkens with the Telefunken label on the tubes, as did Ei.

You should star on TV as "The Tube Hound."

I get faint thinking about what is still available over in Europe. You know they hardly throw anything away. I bet there are all sorts of tubes still in the original equipment just sitting in a basement or an attic.


----------



## RiverRatt

The RCA looked about as much like a Mullard as anything else. It was the lack of factory codes that made me wonder what it really was. Yes it had ribbed plates, and construction-wise there was nothing that suggested anything other than Mullard. I've just never seen a legit Mullard without codes. Same with Amperex. I'm thinking it was either a Mullard or Amperex, but it was one of the late production ones. I know there's a RFT in the Bassman as well. What do you think about the price? I might be able to get it for closer to $300.


----------



## mickeydg5

Silverface Bassmans usually end up between $300 and $600 depending on year and condition. The earlier ones with design before AA568 were as blackface designs and usually have higher asking prices. The AA568 and after designs marked the CBS Silverface.
It seems a good bit sell in the low $400s.


----------



## RiverRatt

The story the guy told me, and I am no Fender expert, was that if the Fender logo was underlined, it was one of the first silverface amps, like 1967-1968. It had blue threads in the cloth and he said that was also a good indicator that it was an earlier one. Can those early silverface amps can be converted to blackface specs with a few component changes? I have a good 2x12 cabinet and I've always wanted a Bassman. I may have to do some bartering.


----------



## mickeydg5

I would not trust the logo thing, I have noticed underlined Fender logos on amplifiers in the 70s and logos can be replaced. Threre are usually The Fender model tags on the inside of the amplifier box. That will tell the design issue and date. Most earlier Silverfaces had Bassman with Amp written underneath to the right with blue sparkle grill.
A Silverface can be changed to the later of the Blackface specs AB165 fairly easily if desired. The big thing was that the Silverface design added cathode resistors to the power tubes and change the bias network some.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> A Silverface can be changed to the later of the Blackface specs AB165 fairly easily if desired. The big thing was that the Silverface design added cathode resistors to the power tubes and change the bias network some.



"Yes" and "True."


----------



## MartyStrat54

1970s Fender Bassman! Blackfacing a Silverface Amp

Fender Blackfacing

Blackface that Fender Silerface amp

Unmasking Fender Silverface Amps - The Free Information Society


----------



## RiverRatt

That just confuses the issue more.. incorrect tube charts, 5 different circuits, jeez. I should have played through the amp while I was there. The guy at the shop has modded it to have more gain. Apparently one 12AX7 triode isn't used in the circuit, and he wired that in as a cascading gain stage and put a master volume pot on the back of the amp. No new holes, and he said it's easily reversible. He also recommended trying it like that before reversing the mod.

I don't know - the way you guys are talking, $400 might be a bit too much for a modded amp. I'm not opposed to having a master volume on the head but I don't know exactly how it works. The way dude described it, it almost sounds like it's just a gain knob, controlling the signal level of the extra triode that he wired in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I played through two pre CBS Blackface Bassman's for nine years. I sold both of them to the same guy for $1000 in 1992. I think the BF Bassman's have gone up a little in 20 years. 

And I have to agree about the change in rectifiers. Mine used the GZ34's. It was stated that the newer Silver Faced versions with the 5U4's were "cleaner" sounding.

The bottom line is that the newer version(s) was made cheaper and they had to Jerry rig the original circuit to get things to work. I don't like the bias feature of the newer models. My Fender's biased like a Marshall, not a cathode bias like they went to.


----------



## mickeydg5

He probably just took the unused 7025 half placing it and a gain/volume pot before the PI. It makes sense, but it is a modification.

Those Silverface Bassman amplifiers have solid state rectification.


----------



## RiverRatt

I wonder if the PT is the same one from the blackface amps? If it has already been modded and it has a 5v secondary then I could install a GZ34 or a 5V4, and that would drop the voltage somewhat, right? I think somebody on here said that you could use 5881 output tubes if the plate voltage was on the low side of 400v and you were using a tube rectifier. Maybe it wasn't on here. It know it was on the internet though, so it has to be true.


----------



## mickeydg5

No, none of these have 5V filament as far as I know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That was me talking about tube rectifiers versus solid state.

Mickey, I was referring to the different versions of the Bassman. They did indeed go from GZ34's to 5U4's, but these were still earlier versions. The truth is, for a while, they were still using up the circuit boards for the older versions and putting them in the newer models. It is very important to know your shit when dealing with "transitional" Fenders.

Alan. If you have a tube rec and use a GZ34, it will lower your plate voltage. I don't know if Fender used the same transformer with the solid state rec, but that would boost the plate voltage and in one of those links I provided, it stated that the plate voltage went up with the SS rec models.


----------



## mickeydg5

Interesting Marty and something to keep in mind.

I was going off of what I have noticed and seen on schematics. Fenders schematics show Bassman amplifiers phasing from 5U4 to 83 to GZ34 and finally to silicon diodes in the early 60s.

Anything is possible.
Alan, if you get a chance to look at it again, tell us what is in there. If it does not have provision for one, a 5V filament transformer could always be added for a tube rectifier but then you are sinking more money into it.


----------



## wakjob

RiverRatt said:


> The story the guy told me, and I am no Fender expert, was that if the Fender logo was underlined, it was one of the first silverface amps, like 1967-1968. It had blue threads in the cloth and he said that was also a good indicator that it was an earlier one. Can those early silverface amps can be converted to blackface specs with a few component changes? I have a good 2x12 cabinet and I've always wanted a Bassman. I may have to do some bartering.



The silver 68' is a transition year. It'll have a solid silver piping around the face of the amp. Great sounding amps.

We have one at the store right now that has a mod that sounds very much like the one you are describing. I'm going to remove the chassis and take some detailed pics on Tues. I'll post them back here.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool, thanks! I don't know when I'll be up that way again. Possibly on Friday but if not it'll be a few weeks. I was thinking that I'd call him and see if he knows or can check and see which circuit it is. Will it be listed on the tube chart?


----------



## johnfv

mickeydg5 said:


> I would not trust the logo thing, I have noticed underlined Fender logos on amplifiers in the 70s and logos can be replaced. Threre are usually The Fender model tags on the inside of the chassis. That will tell the design issue and date. Most earlier Silverfaces had Bassman with Amp written underneath to the right with blue sparkle grill.
> A Silverface can be changed to the later of the Blackface specs AB165 fairly easily if desired. The big thing was that the Silverface design added cathode resistors to the power tubes and change the bias network some.


My blackface Showman is a funny one. When I bought it back in the '70s it already had been swapped to a later Bandmaster head cab. It has the Bandmaster tube chart, later logo and metal edge around the grill. Not sure what happened along the way, the amp itself is in good shape. I agree, logos and even the entire cab may not prove anything...


----------



## sccloser

Hello...it's me...

I have an 83 Fender Concert Amp that I am having modded. These are the Rivera era, last hand wired point to point production Fender amps. My tech says he can easily rework the clean channel to sound like a blackface, and that he can mod the od channel to sound like a tweed bassman or early Marshall. 

Could it be that I could have one amp with a Fender clean channel and Marshall od channel? This could be fantastic!

I've been running into silverface bassmans all over the place lately.

I had to get me a Fender amp so I can use some of these RCA black plate 12ax7's I have laying around...lol.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Vic, long time no see. Is that the same amp as the Concert and Super amps that came out around '93? IIRC the Concert was available in a 2x12 combo and the Super (same circuit) was a 4x10 combo. I may be completely off-base, but I thought that the '93 amps were PCB versions of the earlier ones like yours. They were still made in the USA then. Anyway, I had the Super 4x10 and all it needed to get lush Fender cleans was to replace the linear volume pots with audio taper pots, and all the signal caps were changed over from the little ceramic discs to either Orange Drops or Mallorys. I used Orange Drops in the tone circuit and Mallorys on the power board. There was a resistor across the Reverb pot that needed to be clipped out of the circuit. Pretty easy stuff but delicate work. The board is way too flimsy and the traces will lift with the slightest tug. You shouldn't have any problems with a PTP. This mod also made the gain channel very usable, which was the main complaint with that series. Louder'n hell, too.


----------



## sccloser

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Vic, long time no see. Is that the same amp as the Concert and Super amps that came out around '93? IIRC the Concert was available in a 2x12 combo and the Super (same circuit) was a 4x10 combo. I may be completely off-base, but I thought that the '93 amps were PCB versions of the earlier ones like yours. They were still made in the USA then. Anyway, I had the Super 4x10 and all it needed to get lush Fender cleans was to replace the linear volume pots with audio taper pots, and all the signal caps were changed over from the little ceramic discs to either Orange Drops or Mallorys. I used Orange Drops in the tone circuit and Mallorys on the power board. There was a resistor across the Reverb pot that needed to be clipped out of the circuit. Pretty easy stuff but delicate work. The board is way too flimsy and the traces will lift with the slightest tug. You shouldn't have any problems with a PTP. This mod also made the gain channel very usable, which was the main complaint with that series. Louder'n hell, too.



This one was made in 1983. I think these were made from 81 to 84. They are officially I think called Concert II, but does not say II on it. Mine is a 1x12 combo. I have already put a Vintage 30 in it. The ones made in the 90's are completely different from what I am told. This was the last gasp when Fender was trying to regain some market share in amp sales. About 85 they entered the "red knob' era and started with the pcb boards.

I've been told and read that improving the clean is not too complicated. The OD channel gets more complicated, especially if you want to be able to switch from clean to od in a live situation, as the volumes are hard to match with mods such as those offered by Torres. Michael Clark of Clark Amplification is working on mine.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Cool, thanks! I don't know when I'll be up that way again. Possibly on Friday but if not it'll be a few weeks. I was thinking that I'd call him and see if he knows or can check and see which circuit it is. Will it be listed on the tube chart?


Yes, the paper Fender model tag on the inside of the amplifier box has the tube chart on it. It will also indicate the design/schematic used as well as the date of manufacture (code).


----------



## johnfv

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes, the paper Fender model tag on the inside of the amplifier box has the tube chart on it. It will also indicate the design/schematic used as well as the date of manufacture (code).


Yes, mine says Bandmaster and shows 2x6L6GC


----------



## RiverRatt

Anybody want to ID these little eBay treasures? They test at 50/54 and 56/56 on a TV-7, with minimum good being 32/32. 50/50 is a STRONG 12AX7. Anything over that and you're into serious gain. One is labeled RCA and the other is a Westinghouse and both are "Made in Japan". This guy is so far off, I'm almost afraid that his test scores will be off too when I get the tubes. $33 shipped for the pair.


----------



## RiverRatt

Also, if anyone is interested in one of the best-sounding USA tubes ever made, check this one out:

Vintage Sonotone 12AX7A ECC83 Clear Top 1959 Tube Test Good 2 of A Match | eBay

This is a Sonotone, AFAIK the only 12AX7 made with a side-getter. They are sometimes noisy in combo amps, but they have some serious mojo. They are a "sleeper" tube that can sometimes be had for a good price. I used to chase these down and own them. I have a few now so I'm not as quick to pull the trigger, plus I've already spent my tube money for this month.


----------



## Thiez

I bought a carlsbro TOP100 amp for a few bucks months ago. Aside the partridge transformers they had some cool philips tubes. 4xEL34 and 2x12AX7.

Everywhere on the internet the philips 12AX7 are 'the holy grail' of preamp tubes. I tought let's have a try. I go testing the tubes. 

First of in my blackstar HT5. Sovtek out there and philips 12AX7 in there. Hm not really impressed. A bit less gain and more acurate sounding, but i didn't think it was any better then the sovtek. It was different but not better.

Tung-sol was in there allready, sounded always good to me. Offcourse courious as i was, the philips in there. Hmm.... is this the holy grail? In comperising with the tung sol it had less warmth, less balls, less gain, less warmth, nothing special. The only good thing was a little more definition and more seperate notes in a chord, but this could have been for less balls and less warmth so you get more seperate notes.

So for me the philips aren't that much of an holy grail. dont understand why people pay up to 60 dollars for a NOS philips. I Rather go for 6 tung sol tubes.

Btw: the tubes are made in the blackburn factory UK.


----------



## RiverRatt

First question, did you test them before you put them in your amp? Every tube is different; even if they test good that's no guarantee that they will also sound good. Plus, some tubes don't work well in some amps. Tube rolling isn't about just plugging in a Mullard and hearing angels sing. You have to try different tubes and see what works best in your rig. If that turns out to be a Tung Sol reissue, congratulations. Your work is done and you get to use $10 tubes in your amp. I've used Tung-Sol reissues and they can work really well in some amps.

What's the date code on your 12AX7's? Are the EL34's Blackburn Mullards as well? If they are Mullards and all test good you have some valuable glass there, probably at least $400 USD. Post the date codes and we'll be able to give you a better estimate.


----------



## Thiez

It's true. I have tested the tubes. Will have a look when i'm home. At the moment i'm at work. The tubes 12AX7 tubes didn't work out for me. I'll keep them and try them out in my marshall homebrew project when it is finished. The EL34's probably will end up in the project aswell.

I'll have a look at the date codes and post them here.


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## Thiez

Allright here we go:

Philips ECC83 (I63, 81B1 or B181)
Emis: 95% / 100%
GM: 100% / 100%
Gas: 0 / 0

Philips ECC83 (I 63, B901)
Emis: 100% / 115%
GM: 100% / 97%
Gas: 0 / 0

Philips EL34 (Xf3, B3J4)
Emis: 83%
GM 97%
2.1mA Gas

Philips EL34 (Xf4, B9D3)
Emis: 85%
GM 100%
2.7mA Gas

Philips EL34 (Xf3, B3J4)
Emis: 82%
GM: 99%
3.4mA Gas

Phlips EL34 (Xf3, B3J4)
Emis: 81%
GM: 99%
2.5mA Gas

Not sure what the testresults mean... Anybody who can explain?


----------



## MM54

I63 Mullards aren't the best, but they're still good tubes. Those EL34's are also Mullards, odds are they aren't matched (especially since one's an XF4 and the others are XF3's, making them much older).

What sort of tester are you using/is it calibrated?


----------



## sccloser

I like the I63 Mullards myself.


----------



## RiverRatt

Get an mC1 and you'll be using your I63 Mullards for target practice. Well, maybe not that, but the mC1 and I61 Mullards are the shiznit. Unfortunately I'm Mullard-poor right now. I sold my I61 and I think I'm down to just the one mC1. The mC1's are long-plate 12AX7's and are a whole 'nuther animal entirely. It was microphonic in my Pro Jr., but so was every other tube I tried.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a hint re: my mystery tubes shown above.


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## mickeydg5

The big ole holes on each side of the plates gave them away.

But why are they labeled with Japan?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know. I've seen more weird Westinghouse tubes in the last month or two than ever before. Before the Tungsram, I bought an RFT with a Westinghouse label and "Poland" printed on it. Did Polam even make a 12AX7?

By the way, I talked to the guy with the Bassman. He said the circuit is listed as AB165


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I remember that RFT.

The AB165 is the last of the Blackface era design before CBS. So, no modding for that, hopefully.


----------



## Thiez

MM54 said:


> I63 Mullards aren't the best, but they're still good tubes. Those EL34's are also Mullards, odds are they aren't matched (especially since one's an XF4 and the others are XF3's, making them much older).
> 
> What sort of tester are you using/is it calibrated?


 
I didn't test them myself since i don't have a tubetester. I brought them over to some jukebox repair company to test them. This were the results they gave me and they said the tubes were not perfect but also not bad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> The big ole holes on each side of the plates gave them away.
> 
> But why are they labeled with Japan?



Because "all' tube companies did weird shit. They thought transistors were going to completely erase the tubes out. When that didn't happen, they thought, "Shit, we're out of tubes and people want to buy them still."

An American tube company could have had a contract with a Japanese tube company that fell a little short on the order. Like I said before, tube usage in the European market lasted much longer than the USA. Hence, the Japanese order the units from Tungsram and put, "Made in Japan" on them. 

End of story.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I got the Bassman. I played it through a little 12" car speaker box. That's all the guy had, but the amp still sounded really, really good! I know it's got a Mullard in V1 and that's the only tube I checked. I got a REAL TS-9 from the guy for another $25! It's one of the original MIJ ones from the 1980's. It has a silver label, not black, but it's the real deal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish the fuck I had never sold my Blackface Bassman's. The only mods on them was different values in the tone stack. They kicked ass.

Congratulations on acquiring a Bassman.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks. I've been trying it out, changing tubes around, etc. It had those Russian Groove tubes 6L6B's. I put in some of the big bottle Sylvanias just to see how they sounded and didn't notice a huge improvement. This is the Bassman that has a bias-balance pot if I read correctly so I didn't even try to bias them. Also, are the two channels out-of-phase with each other? I tried jumping them and when the volume controls are set roughly the same it has this hollow, scooped tone with no mids. It's not a bad tone, but it's different. 

What does the B+ voltage usually run on these? I know I'll have to check it to be sure, but I have a pair of RCA black plate 6L6GB's and some Tung-Sol 5881's that I'd like to try in it. If it's right at or under 400v, they might work.

I got lucky on the tubes, too. It had an I63 Mullard and a smooth-plate Tele with a good logo. I put a JHS 12AT7WA in the phase inverter spot which was actually a re-labeled GE 6201. It has a really nice tone! The EP Booster and the new Tube Screamer are perfect for it. I think I like single-coils better than humbuckers. I tried my sienna Strat and my SG in it and the strat was huge sounding. I think the SG will come around when I can get the volume up on it. Dude's extra gain stage/PPIMV mod is cool - I think I'm going to leave it as-is. He put a toggle switch on that extra 12AX7 triode and when you switch it on, it suddenly thinks it's a Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

Forgot to tell you guys that I solved two mysteries last night. I was about to send my Class 5 off for warranty service. I though the speaker had crapped out and the pilot lamp was burned out. I took it apart last night just to see what I could do. While I had the speaker out of it, I had the brilliant idea to check for foreign objects around the diaphragm. Sure enough, there was my little hex wrench that I use on Strat saddles. I'd been wondering why I couldn't find it. How it got there, I'll never know. Hand me my dunce cap and I'll go sit in the corner.

I decided to tackle the bad pilot lamp while I had it apart. I have the replacement that Marshall sent me, but I decided to see if I could fix the original. I got it apart and instead of finding a burned-out LED, I found a burned out neon lamp. Why in the hell did they use that??? I had a collection of LEDs and I couldn't find a white one so I used a pink and the appropriate resistor. Now the pilot lamp works and probably will outlast the neon lamp by a few thousand hours.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, if I remember right, my Bassman's ran a B+ of around 420VDC.

Keep in mind that the newer one's ran hotter and the one's with SS rectification, hotter still.

I ran 1967 Russian 6L6GC's in my amps, because that is what Eric Clapton was running in his amps back in the mid 80's.

Does that gain mod (extra 12AX7) only use one triode of the tube? My 2204 has an extra gain stage and it is only one triode. The other side is just there. Wilder should have used a 6AV6, cuz a 12AX7 is basically two, 6AV6's in one bottle.


----------



## solarburn

I like Bassmans. They love pedals too and sound great. I wouldn't mind having one. Congrats Alan.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Also, are the two channels out-of-phase with each other? I tried jumping them and when the volume controls are set roughly the same it has this hollow, scooped tone with no mids. It's not a bad tone, but it's different.
> 
> What does the B+ voltage usually run on these? I know I'll have to check it to be sure, but I have a pair of RCA black plate 6L6GB's and some Tung-Sol 5881's that I'd like to try in it. If it's right at or under 400v, they might work.


The two channels in the original layout are in phase but how and where is the added gain stage placed. That could make the difference.

The power tube plates on the AB165 desing are supposed to see about 425VDC. It may be higher depending on the power supply tolerances and your wall voltage. You would have to measure.


----------



## johnfv

Let's see some pics of that Bassman Alan. What year?


----------



## Blcws6

While we are on the topic of fenders. My lead guitarist just purchased a Deluxe Reverb reissue and has only had it a day or two. He is noticing weird, cracking popping on the tremelo channel but not the normal channel. I think its a preamp tube. So I took a look real quick at pracitce and noticed the amp has 6 preamp tubes and from right to left it goes as follows: 12ax7 12ax7 12at7..........12ax7 12ax7 12at7.

Ive never used a 12at7 so I dont know what they look like when the amp is running but i noticed they almost had no glow at all to them like the 12ax7s did. Is this normal? Is this indicative of a bad tube? Basically the trem/reverb channel sounds really funny especially when he turns up the reverb. the reverb just sounds awful which leads me to believe its one of the tubes supplying the verb. Anywho, any help is welcome...thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

I think it's a '67. How can you tell for sure? It looks blackface-era from the back.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Hi guys, picked up a few valves yesterday from a deceased estate...
I think there are a few good ones here, all at $10 each! (least i hope they are good!).

I don't know anyone with a tester, so what risk do i have if i try them out in my JMP? I would hate to blow something because of a bad pre-amp... 

Anyway, here is what i got...

Aust Miniwatt





cv4024/ at7





RCA at7





Something made in Hungary with a numbered metal tag on getter post.





Marshall branded ??? Has 4 creases in the top.





3 Teerad ax7's and a at7






I also got a Russian EH and matched pair of Penta kt66's...

Cheers


----------



## RiverRatt

The Miniwatt should be a great score. I know Philips made some tubes in Oz, but never had the chance to try one.

The first 12AT7 is a Philips tube as well. I'm not familiar with the design of it though. Likewise with the RCA 12AT7.

The Hungary tube is a Tungsram and one of the best tubes ever for V1 in a Marshall.

The Marshall-branded tubes are later production Ei. Not bad at all. 

I suspect that the last 3 12AX7's are Matsushitas. The only Philips tubes AFAIK that used the 45° getter were Matsushita and Valvo. They don't look like Valvo.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Thanks for the info RR.
Whats the worst that could happen if i plug one in and is bad? Blow a fuse, or worse?
I have no way to test them unless i send them away...


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> I think it's a '67...


Looks badass to me. Thanks for posting pics


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those are Matsushita's in the bottom picture. If they were Valvo slant getters, you would have hit the mother load as they go for about $80 each.

That's a pretty nice score. 

I bought a new DSL401 in 1999 and it came with all Ei tubes.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

There are a few more there that i didn't get, mainly el84's and 6L6's. 
There was a Telefunkin el84, maybe i should have grabbed that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tried some of these yesterday in my 401. Very good V1 tube @ $39.99 each. I ordered them from the Tube Store.

TAD 7025-S


----------



## Lowlife

vintagevoltage351 said:


> There are a few more there that i didn't get, mainly el84's and 6L6's.
> There was a Telefunkin el84, maybe i should have grabbed that.



I have a Telefunken EL84 in my C5, got it from my granddads stash, but those normally goes for somewhere in between 100-150$ NIB. I'd grab that if I could.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Ok, i tried them all out in v1 with my Les Paul and found the RCA 12at7 has no sound syndrome.(bugger) 
All the others work great.
The Miniwatt flashed up big time which worried me at first, but it sounds excellent all round, like my Amperex.
The Tungsram DOES sound great too, i love it! The EI ones sound similar, nice mids and highs.
The 12at7's (Teerad and 4024) have some nice gain to them, i thought they would be clean as a whistle, but they aren't. I found it hard to compare with the ax7's at first until i rolled the volume down, really sparkly.

Now the other 3 Teerad Matsushita's really surprised me! I think i might swap the Mullard for one of them for a while. The highs are just sooo sweet and shimmery, awesome!

I'm very happy now, thanks guys!


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> Looks badass to me. Thanks for posting pics



Thanks, John! I'm starting to get a feel for dialing it in. That PPIMV mod is a great addition. No way am I getting rid of it. So far, my favorite tone is with everything dimed and both channels jumpered. I even like that smell that 1960's Fenders put out when the tubes are really cooking. It's been so long since I owned a real one that I'd pretty much forgotten about it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lowlife said:


> I have a Telefunken EL84 in my C5, got it from my granddads stash, but those normally goes for somewhere in between 100-150$ NIB. I'd grab that if I could.



That price might be hard to get for a single tube.

I sold a quad of matched Telefunken EL84's on EBAY and they went for only $135.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blcws6 said:


> Ive never used a 12at7 so I dont know what they look like when the amp is running but i noticed they almost had no glow at all to them like the 12ax7s did. Is this normal? Is this indicative of a bad tube? Basically the trem/reverb channel sounds really funny especially when he turns up the reverb. the reverb just sounds awful which leads me to believe its one of the tubes supplying the verb. Anywho, any help is welcome...thanks!



You can't necessarily tell anything by the glow. Sometimes the filament is barely exposed. It could be a bad 12AT7 - make sure a 12AX7 didn't sneak in there too.

VV, unless the tube has a short, you should be fine trying them out. Just make certain that the tube is a 12AX7. If there's no number printed on the tube, don't try it until it can be tested.


----------



## Lowlife

MartyStrat54 said:


> That price might be hard to get for a single tube.
> 
> I sold a quad of matched Telefunken EL84's on EBAY and they went for only $135.



This was an unopened (plastic intact) box with the tube...

A bit like these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Telefunken-...ision_Valves_Vacuum_Tubes&hash=item43b87ba6f2


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I think it's a '67. How can you tell for sure? It looks blackface-era from the back.


At the top of the paper chart/tag and on the chassis somewhere there should be a double letter code. There are other codes stamped on later chassis too as well as component dates.
The first letter indicates the year, second is the month.
A first letter of Q = 1967, R = 1968 and so on.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

RiverRatt said:


> VV, unless the tube has a short, you should be fine trying them out. Just make certain that the tube is a 12AX7. If there's no number printed on the tube, don't try it until it can be tested.



Yeah, i'm just extra cautious with my amp. 
I might have another dig at the box full of valves from where i got them from again. My friend is holding them for his mate, and he will be back from work next month. I also fixed his friends little Squire practice amp that suffered a broken volume pot, so maybe a little deal could be done with the other valves. The deceased was mainly into Fenders by the types in the box(el84's), but owned a JTM45 also, hence the new spare KT66's (for $20 )
I always wanted to build a JTM45 kit...
Always wanted an 18 watter too.......

One day!

Now that i have a dead RCA at7, perfect chance to break it open and have a better look at it. My girlfriend got me one of those geeky headlight/3xmagnifier headband things, so i better use it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just remember that there are toxic components inside a tube. I recommend a filter mask and latex gloves.


----------



## RiverRatt

vintagevoltage351 said:


> Yeah, i'm just extra cautious with my amp.
> I might have another dig at the box full of valves from where i got them from again. My friend is holding them for his mate, and he will be back from work next month. I also fixed his friends little Squire practice amp that suffered a broken volume pot, so maybe a little deal could be done with the other valves. The deceased was mainly into Fenders by the types in the box(el84's), but owned a JTM45 also, hence the new spare KT66's (for $20 )
> I always wanted to build a JTM45 kit...
> Always wanted an 18 watter too.......
> 
> One day!
> 
> Now that i have a dead RCA at7, perfect chance to break it open and have a better look at it. My girlfriend got me one of those geeky headlight/3xmagnifier headband things, so i better use it.



Good luck, man. Maybe you'll get some nice stuff in the second trip. I'd like to have a few more 6L6GC's - I have a decent collection of them but nothing really matches up with anything else. We might could work out a trade if you come up with anything.

I have a relative who has a couple of boxes of tubes stashed away, and they will be audio tubes. I can't get him off his ass to dig them out though. They are buried somewhere in his mother's garage. I may give him a call.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

No worries Alan, if i manage to get the rest of the box cheap enough, i'll send them to you to check out. Chances are i probably wont use them all. Not all are NIB though. There are some newish ones you probably wouldn't want, can't remember them all now, but i got all the old looking ax7's.
Will see how i go next month mate.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just remember that there are toxic components inside a tube. I recommend a filter mask and latex gloves.



I may or may not have done that Mullard comparison bare-handed with no mask, and I may have been eating ice cream while doing the second half of it...

I turned out okay... I think... mercury poisoning is fun for both of me.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

I wonder how many Mullards i trampled on as a kid, for fun!


----------



## RiverRatt

There's a layer of tiny glass shards all over the floor of my garage. Tubes make a very unique sound when you step on them. I really, really need to go through them again. It's not something I am looking forward to.

How about those that look like the business end of a mortar round and have the radiation warning printed on the solid lead shell? They are safe to take apart, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

vintagevoltage351 said:


> No worries Alan, if i manage to get the rest of the box cheap enough, i'll send them to you to check out. Chances are i probably wont use them all. Not all are NIB though. There are some newish ones you probably wouldn't want, can't remember them all now, but i got all the old looking ax7's.
> Will see how i go next month mate.





Hell, get all you can, even the new looking ones. Sort through them when you get them home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gather all of your "eggs" into one basket and take them home immediately.


----------



## MM54

Where's that one old picture? It's some old G-bottle tube, either RCA or GE, and it lists the chemicals in tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I posted a page out of RCA's #19 manual here before. It listed an entire page of chemicals used in the manufacturing of tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll get a photo of one of my dangerous ones. It's kind of scary when you read the fine print. I don't even remember the number on the tube or which box they are in, but they are pretty easy to spot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of old TV sets had multiple warning labels about toxicity and X-Ray radiation. I'm sure that 3/4 inch wood cabinet was a good shield. LOL


----------



## MM54

I have one of the tubes with the heavy lead shielding on it, I quite like it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Drop it in your city water supply.


----------



## MM54

The township water tower is about 80 yards from my house


----------



## RiverRatt

You two better watch out. With talk like that you're going to wake up to men in black helicopters circling your house.

I got my two Tungsrams earlier this week. The strongest one tested at 56/56 on the guy's TV-7, it tests at 55/55 on mine. Either both our testers are off by the same amount or they are both spot-on. That's as near perfect as you can get with two testers. My TV-7 has matched up like that with every tube I've bought that was tested on a TV-7. Just for reference, a score of +/- 48 is as-new. 

File this under "never throw away a tube that tests marginally below minimum good." I have two ancient long-plate Amperex Heerlen 12AX7's. one is dead but the other is 30/31 (minimum good is 32/32). I gave it a try and it sounds superb, like a dark, throaty growl. I think it's as good if not better than my one long-plate Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, use em till they die.

Like the Fender guys who like worn out 12AX7's in their V1 slots. Oh it's a beautiful thing.


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, use em till they die.
> 
> Like the Fender guys who like worn out 12AX7's in their V1 slots. Oh it's a beautiful thing.



I still have the original Fender-branded 7025 in V1 of my '77 SFPR.
It does sound SOOOOOO sweet...


----------



## Lowlife

MAn I love this thread, its ALWAYS good for an interesting read, nice tube porn or a chuckle when i visit it


----------



## mickeydg5

I may have said this before. A weak, worn out considered bad 12AX7 still has more amplification than a lower u (amplfication factor) tube like a 12AY7. As long as the tube still has a desired tonal quality, life test is good and all electrodes are intact there is no reason to trash it, just mark it as weak. It is like swapping out for a lower u tube .


----------



## RiverRatt

It seems to me that the gain suffers a little, too. Sometimes that works to your advantage, other times not so much. I got a couple of new toys to play with today. I did OK on selling gear. I made some money and still came home with a Strat Plus and a JMP1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I may have said this before. A weak, worn out considered bad 12AX7 still has more amplification than a lower u (amplfication factor) tube like a 12AY7. As long as the tube still has a desired tonal quality, life test is good and all electrodes are intact there is no reason to trash it, just mark it as weak. It is like swapping out for a lower u tube .



Exactly, just like a 12AY7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What year, what color and what pickups are in the Strat Plus?

How much did it actually cost you?

PICS!


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a 1995, black with white cosmetics and gold hardware (except the roller nut). It was a trade from a very well-known local Strat collector so I don't really have any cash invested. The Lace Golds have been replaced with Jon Baxter custom "Texas" winds which is what I was looking for. It'll be awhile before I can post any pics but it sounds BAD ASS with my little JMP1. This may be the best home amp I've ever had! I set out with my LP, a partscaster and a Class 5 and came home with a Strat Plus, a JMP1 and over $1k in cash. I'm happy! 

Oh yeah, I also found three 22oz bottles of Rogue oatmeal stout. Life is good


----------



## BluesRocker

Howdy Guys...

Long time no see!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> It's a 1995, black with white cosmetics and gold hardware (except the roller nut). It was a trade from a very well-known local Strat collector so I don't really have any cash invested. The Lace Golds have been replaced with Jon Baxter custom "Texas" winds which is what I was looking for. It'll be awhile before I can post any pics but it sounds BAD ASS with my little JMP1. This may be the best home amp I've ever had! I set out with my LP, a partscaster and a Class 5 and came home with a Strat Plus, a JMP1 and over $1k in cash. I'm happy!
> 
> Oh yeah, I also found three 22oz bottles of Rogue oatmeal stout. Life is good



I got to hear this stuff! Congrats Alan! Fucker! I'm jelly.


----------



## solarburn

Hi Cody.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hows it going Joe?


----------



## solarburn

Good man! Just got done jam'n on the OR15. My fingies are sore...youch! Now I'm watching Paranormal4 and hav'n my way with some pizza.

How's it on your end?


----------



## BluesRocker

Not too bad. I just turned on the JV1959 and hit a few licks with my GT Epi LP and sit her back down, then started working on papers for school.. I need to go to bed but I am not tired and I dont feel like doing homework.


----------



## solarburn

Hard to force sleep and homework is...well homework. Necessary but lacking the right stimulus.LOL

I hope to get my JV JMP back soon now that Joey has the boards done. Looks like he's get'n a hell of a winter storm right now!


----------



## BluesRocker

Yeah I saw that on the news. Up to 3 feet! Yikes!


----------



## RiverRatt

This winter is fucked up. We've had an ice storm, a couple of light dustings of snow, tornadoes, straight-line winds that blew away a small town about 15 miles from my house. In between all this we've had 70 degree spring-like weather with a few days in the low 20's. the buttercups are blooming, the trees are budding and the little frogs we call "peepers" are already singing at night. It's like we have 9 months of summer and maybe three months of who the fuck knows what. When I was a kid, we'd get at least two or three big snows every winter. Now it's like Florida in the winter and south Louisiana in the summer, without any beaches or good Cajun food. Canada is starting to look good.


----------



## solarburn

That's some crazy ass weather!


----------



## BluesRocker

Yea Alan, I hear ya. Kentucky weather is just as bad. It was 68 yesterday, and today was in the 30s


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a family member who is getting her doctorate in some kind of environmental study. She says that we're just beginning to enter an era of climate change. Various plant, animal and insect species are moving further northward every year. A friend of mine who does freelance photography for us is really into meteorology, especially from a photography standpoint. He says the results of the climate change will be a huge increase in the number and severity of thunderstorms, hurricanes and tornadoes. He's talking super-tornadoes that will cover tens of miles. There's really no upper limit on the size of severe storms - they will feed on the added heat and humidity and strong, warm winds from the Gulf. Add the jet stream winds to this mix and we could be seeing storms the size of states. It's some scary shit if you believe it. We've seen like a 500% increase in tornadoes in this part of the country in the last 15 years. We've been lucky. Nothing has hit us directly yet, but we've had some very close calls.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And the great north and south ice caps are melting.

Of course I'll be dead before the shit hits the fan, unless we have a economic uprising first.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan, what kind of SG do you have?


----------



## RiverRatt

It's a 2003 SG Special in ebony with humbuckers. It's basically a stripped down Standard; no binding, gold Gibson logo, no crown inlay, dot neck, etc. I have a set of zebra WCR pickups in it. It's a real player and a tone machine. You should hear it thru the JMP1 combo. I said I'd never own one of the 1-watt amps but I'm glad I gave it a try at GC on Friday. It's a better home amp than the Class 5.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When is a Mullard not a Mullard?

If a tube is made in Herleen by Amperex and labeled Mullard, wouldn't it really be an Amperex?

Here's a 1954 mC1 with "garden hoe" getter.

Mullard 1954 ECC83 12AX7 MCN MC1 Long Garden Hoe Getter Test Free World SHIP | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

I wondered what a garden hoe getter was... I still don't know but dude says it's a D-flat. I hate Db.

I'd like to hear it if it tests as good as the guy says. That one old Amperex I mentioned a few posts back tested right at minimum good and it sounds great. I'm going to have to go find my tube and see if it has a hoe.


----------



## BluesRocker

Better watch out Alan, hoes will get you in trouble


----------



## MartyStrat54

I never heard anyone ever use the term "garden hoe."


----------



## mickeydg5

I always kind of just thought of them as a "D" getter with a flat bar instead of a round bar.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought that was a foil getter?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I also have some 12AX7's that have the disc getters.


----------



## keennay

I'd like to swap out the preamp tubes in my '76 JMP 2203. Which should I go for if I'm looking for higher gain?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I answered this over in your post in Power Tubes. Go there for info.


----------



## RiverRatt

keennay said:


> I'd like to swap out the preamp tubes in my '76 JMP 2203. Which should I go for if I'm looking for higher gain?



Tungsram.


----------



## MartyStrat54

keennay didn't specify if he wanted CP or NOS, so I steered him towards a hand select, high gain Shuguang.

A cheap NOS alternative would be a Sylvania. Even my used one's are high gain and the new one's I get are in the 40's on my 707


----------



## spikei

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tried some of these yesterday in my 401. Very good V1 tube @ $39.99 each. I ordered them from the Tube Store.
> 
> TAD 7025-S



Hi Marty, I am looking for a good CP tube to replace my Mullard in V1 in my JVM 215c, i love the tone from the Mullard but these NOS tubes ain't cheap. Do you think the TAD would come close to it for tone & feel.
If not what CP tube would you try.
Cheers Mike
PS
I have tried JJ, EH, Tungsol, Shug CP tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the better current production tubes are fetching as much as a used NOS tube. The TAD's are very nice, but they are $34 each. You can get a used Mullard on EBAY for that, or at least some other good used NOS tube.

The TAD's and the Northern Electric tubes are the next big thing in current production tubes. They are costly, but they perform very well considering they do not use the same coating chemicals of the vintage tubes.

I posted here recently that I bought two of the TAD's and I was pleased with both of them in a V1 test in my DSL401.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> keennay didn't specify if he wanted CP or NOS, so I steered him towards a hand select, high gain Shuguang.
> 
> A cheap NOS alternative would be a Sylvania. Even my used one's are high gain and the new one's I get are in the 40's on my 707



I get readings like that from the old Yellow label Sylvanias. Tungsram is the only other tube I can think of that consistently tests that high and sounds good in a Marshall. JRP Raytheons consistently test as a stupid-high gain tube but are actually a little too hot for a gain stage. You can have too much of a good thing.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since we're talking gain, I have a mystery tube that I can't ID. I know it's an Amperex as it has the Delta +3 digit factory date code but the type code is gone. It tests around 90/90 on my TV-7, no gas, no shorts, just ridiculously high. Even those ultra-hot Sylvanias only get into the low 60's on my tester. 

You'd think that this tube would be too hot to use, but it's actually the opposite: it sounds more like a 5751 or even a 12AT7 than a 12AX7. I don't think I have a picture of it handy but it looks like an I65 Amperex, silver tabs, etc.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...Tungsram is the only other tube I can think of that consistently tests that high and sounds good in a Marshall...


Damn, I need to get those Tungsrams out of my Showman and start rolling them in my Marshalls!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Since we're talking gain, I have a mystery tube that I can't ID. I know it's an Amperex as it has the Delta +3 digit factory date code but the type code is gone. It tests around 90/90 on my TV-7, no gas, no shorts, just ridiculously high. Even those ultra-hot Sylvanias only get into the low 60's on my tester.
> 
> You'd think that this tube would be too hot to use, but it's actually the opposite: it sounds more like a 5751 or even a 12AT7 than a 12AX7. I don't think I have a picture of it handy but it looks like an I65 Amperex, silver tabs, etc.


 
Pictures 
Is it an ECC81 or hell maybe even an ECC82? I know there are a bunch of styles when it comes to construction of these. It may even be Japanese.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You mean Amperex put their label on a Japanese tube???

LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

I packed up some tubes that a guy was supposed to come by and check out and I think it's with them. I didn't see it around my caddy or amps. It's definitely an Amperex made in Heerlen - I mentioned the Delta factory code above. I tested it as an ECC82 and ECC81 and it was about equally as off with those tests. It might be an ECC81 or something close, but it doesn't have that sterile 12AT7 tone. It has too much gain to be anything with a lower mU than a 12AT7 or 5751. It could be a hot 12AY7 or 12AV7 I guess, but it's strange. It really doesn't test as anything I'm familiar with. \

I need to try it in the Bassman. I'm running a couple of old black plate triple-mica 5751's in it right now: a Sylvania in V1 and a GE in V4. It is supposed to have a 12AT7 in V4 (phase inverter). I really like what the 5751 does in that spot. I guess I could try the mystery tube in V4 and see what it does. I'm kind of weirded out about describing tube tone. I ran across a 5F4 review in a back issue of Vintage Guitar. The guy actually said that it would have tone chasers "convulsing in spasms of aural delight". I felt like taking a shower after I read that. Ewww.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, I did not really think his are Japanese because of the I65 and delta but I saw this earlier. Or at least I think it may have been these.

Edited
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Matched-quad-4-Amperex-Japan-12AT7-ECC81-vacuum-tube-tubes-test-NOS-/321069602601?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4ac13d5729


----------



## MartyStrat54

Clicked on the link and it took me to my EBAY home page.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not know what happened. It worked yesterday.
Try the edited link.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They're new, so they all test at a perfect 100 percent on emissions.

Actually, the price is pretty good, but they are just the regular halo getter tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's the mystery tube. I was using my camera at work and I think one of my kids screwed up the autofocus settings. It keeps wanting to focus on the pins. I strained my old & feeble eyes and I THINK the code on the tube is DELTA 8E3 or 0E3. There's not a trace of a type code.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, I have a tube I'm going to list on eBay soon and I thought I'd give you a heads-up. It's another Amperex - and it's a long-plate. It has a mC1 type code and the factory/date code of D9B (D=delta). I have only ever seen two other mC1 Amperex; one was dead and the other was marginal but sounded OK. Needless to say this isn't a common tube. On my TV-7 tester it reads 50/48, with 32/32 being minimum good. New is generally considered anything 48 and above. It's also been Marshall tested and compared to my Mullard mC1 it has a little more gain and maybe a bit more highs than the Mullard. The Bugle Boy logo is around 50% there and most of the writing is legible. Shoot me a PM - it goes on eBay tomorrow.

I will also be testing around 20 Sylvania, GE and various other 12AX7's so if anybody needs some good tubes at a good price, I'm willing to deal.

Oops, I forgot to mention that there will also be a smooth plate Telefunken that tests at 48/50.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Amperex isn't an mC1 - it's an mC6. Apparently that's a good thing


----------



## MM54

Bottom of the second page? Where've you guys been?

Just a heads up that in a couple weeks I'm planning on selling part of my tube collection, a few guitar tubes and a lot of other various NIB tubes. I'd like to at least keep the 12AX7's/EL34's/6L6's internal to the family here, the other ones I'm probably going to put on ebay as a bulk lot and see what it goes for. I'm pretty strapped for cash and, as cool as my cabinet of 1k+ tubes is, the money I can get for a couple hundred of them is cooler right now.

(I'm also selling a guitar but would rather not ship it.)

Anyways I'll be posting the tubes on here before they go to ebay, this is just a heads up to let you know in advance  Not sure exactly which ones I'll be selling yet, when I get home for spring break in a couple weeks I have to look at the shelves and make a decision then.


----------



## MartyStrat54

1000+ tubes? Are they all audio tubes, or is this a collection of TV and radio tubes as well?

I just did some repeat business with Mark (gameshound) that was for 30 tubes. The last batch of Mullards and Amperex I got from him were all 30 to 35 on my 707.

Tubes? I'm always looking for "good" tubes.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1000+ tubes? Are they all audio tubes, or is this a collection of TV and radio tubes as well?
> 
> I just did some repeat business with Mark (gameshound) that was for 30 tubes. The last batch of Mullards and Amperex I got from him were all 30 to 35 on my 707.
> 
> Tubes? I'm always looking for "good" tubes.



I wish they were all audio tubes! It's a good mix of audio, TV, and radio tubes. I don't have a lot of high-dollar glass but I do have a good few spare 12AX7's and I think a pair of RFT EL34's and a couple 6L6GCs to go.

I'll be keeping the 'focus' of my actual 'collection', which is pretty much centered on how awesome so much of the packaging was - ie a tube or two NIB (of whatever type) in a mint condition box, some never opened, I also have a couple sleeves (Telefunken sleeves are AWESOME). Also keeping my 30's and earlier tubes because they're awesome too (albeit without a box).

I honestly think I could pull 150 misc tubes, in boxes, tested good, from the cabinet and put them up as a bulk lot on ebay and not even realize they were gone the next time I looked in the cabinet.


----------



## RiverRatt

Matt, if you get rid of those smoky 6L6G's I sent, give me a shot at them. I had an asshole tube buyer walk off with my last pair while I wasn't looking. I keep thinking I'll run across some but it hasn't happened yet. I can put my hands on a nice pair of metal ones but those are kinda creepy. I like to see what's going on in there.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd forgotten about my mystery tube post... nobody want to take a guess? The best I can come up with is that it's something like a 7AX7. Those do exist, as well as 7AU7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some things are better left unknown. LOL


----------



## mickeydg5

I know there are 7AU7s but never have come across a 7AX7.
Besides a 7AU7 would test high compared to a 12AX7 at the proper filament voltage. If you test a 7AU7 as a 12AX7 it will test even higher and the filament will not last long or at least be damaged if left in test mode.

Be careful with your testing. 
Sticking unknown tubes in can cause damage.


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> Matt, if you get rid of those smoky 6L6G's I sent, give me a shot at them. I had an asshole tube buyer walk off with my last pair while I wasn't looking. I keep thinking I'll run across some but it hasn't happened yet. I can put my hands on a nice pair of metal ones but those are kinda creepy. I like to see what's going on in there.



I was planning on holding on to those, they sound pretty good in the CA10


----------



## RiverRatt

The 7AX7 shows up in some "obsolete" lists. You won't find a datasheet for it. I actually have a handful of 7AU7's somewhere.

I always do a shorts test before anything else, so I'm covered that way. It could be a 6-volt tube I guess, but the filament doesn't light up like a mismatched one will.


----------



## RiverRatt

MM54 said:


> I was planning on holding on to those, they sound pretty good in the CA10





I'll ship you a Fluke bench meter for them. 

I know I've been threatening to do that for a long time, but I actually have a little cash right now. Whatcha say?


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I'll ship you a Fluke bench meter for them.
> 
> I know I've been threatening to do that for a long time, but I actually have a little cash right now. Whatcha say?





They're at home so I can't send them out until after break, so I'll have to let you know


----------



## RiverRatt

I have that Fluke at the office still waiting to ship. I just never do think of it. I'll run across some 6L6G's sooner or later. They were a pretty common tube. Hell, I might give the metal/ceramic ones a try. The Tweaker should be able to handle them just fine.


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> This winter is fucked up. We've had an ice storm, a couple of light dustings of snow, tornadoes, straight-line winds that blew away a small town about 15 miles from my house. In between all this we've had 70 degree spring-like weather with a few days in the low 20's. the buttercups are blooming, the trees are budding and the little frogs we call "peepers" are already singing at night. It's like we have 9 months of summer and maybe three months of who the fuck knows what. When I was a kid, we'd get at least two or three big snows every winter. Now it's like Florida in the winter and south Louisiana in the summer, without any beaches or good Cajun food. Canada is starting to look good.



I'll trade ya. We get 6 weeks of summer, 6-1/2 months of who the fuck knows what and 4 months of winter. 
On second thought you have sauna like humidity and bugs the size of kittens. I'll keep what I have. 






You know it's bad when the plow guy slides into the woods trying to plow your driveway.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bugs are bad. Last year we battled those little sugar ants from March until October. The little ant traps for them won't work. Fire ants have worked their way up into Tennessee. So have armadillos. Between the fire ants building mounds and the armadillos digging holes in the lawn it looks like we've taken a few mortar rounds. I'm going to get a .22 with a night scope and wait for the armadillos to show up. Kinda like Bill Murray in Caddyshack.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember when I spent the night at Turner Falls south of Oklahoma City. I never seen more armadillos in my life. They were everywhere. The park officials were trying to trap them. LOL. They had dug holes in all the hiking paths. Never did hear what they did to rectify the matter.

When I worked on the big deer ranch in Oklahoma in 2005-2006, we all carried 22's in our Polaris 4X4's. You see an armadillo, you shoot it dead. My (ex) brother-in-law didn't want a $60,000 deer stepping in a 'dillo hole.

And speaking of the armadillo's moving father north? When I was living north of KC, we started seeing dead armadillos on the side of the road. My sister has lived in that area since 1968 and that was a first for her.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I remember when I spent the night at Turner Falls south of Oklahoma City. I never seen more armadillos in my life. They were everywhere. The park officials were trying to trap them. LOL. They had dug holes in all the hiking paths. Never did hear what they did to rectify the matter.
> 
> When I worked on the big deer ranch in Oklahoma in 2005-2006, we all carried 22's in our Polaris 4X4's. You see an armadillo, you shoot it dead. My (ex) brother-in-law didn't want a $60,000 deer stepping in a 'dillo hole.
> 
> And speaking of the armadillo's moving father north? When I was living north of KC, we started seeing dead armadillos on the side of the road. My sister has lived in that area since 1968 and that was a first for her.



They can be some fast little fuckers when they want to be. I've jumped a couple in tall grass and they are like ungainly rabbits. Deer are getting to be the #1 pest here. When I was a kid, I can remember my dad pulling to the side of the road to watch a deer in a field. They were almost hunted out. Now, thanks to the TWRA and their conservation policies, I have hit two deer with my car in the last year. I've killed more deer with my car than with a gun. There are so many of them now that there's like a three deer per day bag limit. We're starting to have confirmed big cat sightings around here, too. I imagine they like the huge deer herds as much as the hunters do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah deer are getting like them damn Canadian geese. Up in KC, they actually had to close a city park and let bow hunters come in and thin out about 130 deer. Deer bring in the predators that's for sure. They had some security camera footage of some big cougars on the prowl in northeastern Kansas.

Of course where I live now, there is a county south of me that has black bear. They took 42 of them this past season.


----------



## flashtilley

Riffraff said:


> I'll trade ya. We get 6 weeks of summer, 6-1/2 months of who the fuck knows what and 4 months of winter.
> On second thought you have sauna like humidity and bugs the size of kittens. I'll keep what I have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You know it's bad when the plow guy slides into the woods trying to plow your driveway.




You call that snow?? Lol.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah deer are getting like them damn Canadian geese. Up in KC, they actually had to close a city park and let bow hunters come in and thin out about 130 deer. Deer bring in the predators that's for sure. They had some security camera footage of some big cougars on the prowl in northeastern Kansas.
> 
> Of course where I live now, there is a county south of me that has black bear. They took 42 of them this past season.



I'm pretty close to Shiloh National Military Park; the site of the big Civil War battle that killed more Americans than all the other wars combined. The Park is over 8 square miles of virgin forest, large meadows, river bluffs, creek bottoms, and it has turned into a refuge for deer, wild turkeys, coyotes, raccoons, foxes, bald eagles, and apparently cougars now as well. State Hwy 22 goes through the park, and it's not uncommon to see literally a hundred deer or more in just a 2-mile stretch of road. They never leave the park, they have no hunting pressure, and they are pretty much acclimated to cars and people. They usually don't even look up when a car drives past. 

At least all the black bears are on the eastern end of the state in the mountains.


----------



## Riffraff

flashtilley said:


> You call that snow?? Lol.



Nah, that was nothing. I just didn't have any snow pics on my PC. We got 3ft where I work a couple of weeks ago. I'm further west so I only got 18 inches where I live. It made for a fun commute though. One area I pass through on my 80 mile commute got 4ft. Other than that it has been a pretty mild winter this year as far as snowfall goes.

Speaking of cougars, we have them out here too. A few years ago my buddy was sitting on his porch sipping on a cold one after doing some yard work. He was messing with his cell phone then looked up and saw a big one standing in his front yard about 30ft away from him staring right at him and his sleeping yellow lab. Thankfully the dog never saw it. He said it looked kind of like a gray house cat only it was a lot bigger than his dog. Bobcats are pretty common but we generally don't see cougars up close and personal. They tend to stay in the woods. We had a big bear that wandered through the neighborhood daily in the summer months for a few years. It went right through my neighbors yard one day while my daughter was playing there on a playscape. We also had this cute little red fox that used to hang out with a neighborhood dog. They are everywhere but are usually very timid, not this one. It thought it was a dog. I saw it following the dog down the road one day just baying in the air and having a grand old time. The deer are out of control and a pain in the ass. They decimate your flowers and bushes every year. I've got some young pear trees I've had to put netting around to stop them from gnawing every leaf they could reach off of them. My mother-in-law has been hand feeding a few of them for years. It even lets her pet it on the nose as long as she does it over the railing of her porch. The animals are definitely coming back.

Back on topic....

I've got a few more vintage preamp tubes coming from a radio guy to try. I just got a few to fill in gaps in the collection.

12AZ7A SYLVANIA
6072 GE USA
12AX7A N/A USA GRAY/ROUND GETTER
12AX7A TUNG-SOL GRAY


----------



## RiverRatt

Foxes stink. I mean that literally, they smell like a skunk. Some people who live up near where my grandmother lived do some sort of animal rescue and they ended up with a litter of red fox kits. Beautiful animals but I couldn't stand to be around them. There's a large culvert underneath the highway at the NW corner of our property and all kinds of animals use it instead of crossing the road. At least they did until the guy on the other side filled in the drainage ditch on his side of the road and put in a vertical concrete drain with an iron grate. I sometimes work until midnight or after when we are really busy and I used to see foxes near the house almost every time I came home late. 

Back in the SW corner of the yard there's a spot that is too rough to mow. I used to fight it every summer and finally let the blackberry and honeysuckles take it over. Now it's full of rabbits. Sometimes I'll sit out back in the evening and watch them play. Our Jack Russel knows they are in there but the brambles and stuff are so thick that he usually gives up after maybe getting a foot or two inside the tangle. If you know terriers, giving up is something they almost never do.

I got started talking about animals and forgot the tubes. The 6072 is a good find and makes a great V1 tube in a Fender-ish circuit. If any of your amps use a 12AT7 phase inverter tube, try it there for a little more headroom. It might sound good in the Silvertone as well. If the Sylvania is a true 12AZ7 and not just a relabeled 12AT7, I liked using those as the cathode follower in my Vintage Modern. Mickey clued me in to that. I've used them as power tubes in my 1 watt JMP. If you want a really nice 12AT7 substitute, look for a 6201. I have an old GE triple-mica 5-star 6201 that's one of the sweetest-sounding preamp tubes I have. Not any dirt to it, but it's smooth as butter.


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> Our Jack Russel knows they are in there but the brambles and stuff are so thick that he usually gives up after maybe getting a foot or two inside the tangle. If you know terriers, giving up is something they almost never do.



I've had one and know exactly what you mean. Our latest is a Black Mouth Cur that my wife rescued from a kill shelter in Florida. Pretty common dog down your way but there aren't many of them up north. He is so different from our labs. Boone has so much personality. We really enjoy him. I've never had a dog like him. He can be a handful and definitely gives our labs more than they can handle at times. It must be the wild boar hunting gene in him.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't have a particularly good photo, but here's our other dog. We found him at my mother-in-law's house in Shiloh, so my daughter named him Shiloh. He was just a pup when we found him and he was feral. He bit me when I tried to get him out from under their truck. I didn't think we'd be able to keep him; he would growl when you got close to him and he snapped at the kids a couple of times. Now he's just one of the family.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I don't have a particularly good photo, but here's our other dog. We found him at my mother-in-law's house in Shiloh, so my daughter named him Shiloh. He was just a pup when we found him and he was feral. He bit me when I tried to get him out from under their truck. I didn't think we'd be able to keep him; he would growl when you got close to him and he snapped at the kids a couple of times. Now he's just one of the family.



When I was a kid we named our liver colored Springer Spaniel Shiloh. In fact she was our first dog and smart as a whip. You could be a few miles away from home playing in our woodlands as we did all the time and tell her to go home and she would. Also took her on the paper route that was about 8 miles covering many different roads, twists and turns and go home if we needed her to. Would stay and wait while riding ahead and wait for us to come back on the circular neighborhood roads. not cross a street when told to stay because of traffic. She was amazing. 

Haven't thought about her in years. Her only fault was rolling in cow patties in the fields we'd cross. Fresh ones too. Bad choice of perfume she had...


----------



## solarburn

Ok I decided to roll V1 in the OR15 to shave some bite off the tone or warm it up a tad. I had the D getter Shita in it and decided to put my one and only RFT in. It did exactly what I wanted but...that bite the amp had with the Shita sounded really good on the neck pup. Plus it was more clear with delay on. 

Noticeably the tone cuts better with the Shita. My fucking ears hurt from popping those 2 tubes in and out to choose between them. Bet the neighbors hate when I'm chasing tone cause I play certain chords and lead lines to test with. Over and over.

Its a trade off between them. Both sound great. I like having the bite of the Shita for certain things and the RFT sings but doesn't sound AS good with delay or the neck pup. Good enough but I'm anal. No Alan and Marty I didn't say I like Anal!


----------



## solarburn

Also with the OR15 the TAD 84's the amp came with have proven to sound and feel better than the JJ's, Preferred Series and my beloved RFT 84's. I get this cool articulation with the TADS that the other power tubes take away. I believe that comes from the other tubes being smoother. Takes away that bite and articulation the TADS are producing. Of course while rolling power tubes I did not touch any of the preamp tubes. Power tubes can matter too. Have to roll them at some volume to know though.

I hated TADS in my NT and Monza. Fucking fizz is what I got with those 2 amps. Which made me anti TAD EL84ish.. The Orange loves em'...or my ears prefer them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As I said, within a few years we will all be using Chinese tubes. TAD makes some really nice stuff. Their 12AX7 is a very decent tube. I will use it as a CP V1 anytime. I'm sure TAD will increase their lineup as it is sort of limited right now.

I actually think the CP market is affecting the amount of NOS and ANOS tubes being sold. More people are turning to the premium CP tubes over a NOS tube.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> As I said, within a few years we will all be using Chinese tubes. TAD makes some really nice stuff. Their 12AX7 is a very decent tube. I will use it as a CP V1 anytime. I'm sure TAD will increase their lineup as it is sort of limited right now.
> 
> I actually think the CP market is affecting the amount of NOS and ANOS tubes being sold. More people are turning to the premium CP tubes over a NOS tube.



I haven't tried any TAD preamp tubes that I can recall. There are some CP tubes I like though and will use whether by choice or all there is.

I'll miss the NOS though. Some have really helped plus the fun I had discovering which ones I like in my amps. Mini-watts crunch up so nicely. That was a good turn on Marty. I got mine from you and have 2 of them in the Orange. Raytheon BP's, RFT's, Telefunkens, RCA, GE, D getter Matashitas, BEL, 5751 BP's...I have a good selection and what's cool is any one them can excel in a tone slot as I use CP for utility slots until my special ones are all used up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey ALAN-Check out this German tube testing equipment. Wow!


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty, are you testing or poking?
The left and middle are AVO tube tester equipment, English.
The blue tube tester on the right is Neuberger, German.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's all above my head, guys. I've just put in about 3 really bizarre hours with my TV-7. I had a tube pin snap off on my last good Sonotone side-getter 12AX7, I dropped a screwdriver and it decapitated a 1950's Sylvania 5751, I reached and picked up a container of loose 12AT7's and had some sort of muscle spasm and flung them from hell to breakfast. One of those days.

On a positive note, I traded a guy 25 CP 12AX7's and a Peavey two-button footswitch for a Silvertone 1484 head. It was loaded with Sylvania red-print tubes. I got a pair of short bottle 6L6GC's that test at 50 and 53 (25 is min. good), and I got three nice 12AX7's that are also red print. They test near-new. They all sound great in the Bassman, too.


----------



## mickeydg5

Take a break.
Nice trade. When you say short bottle 6L6GC, black plates or some nice grays?


----------



## thrawn86

What should I be looking for in a 12AX7 for my Vox 30 watt hybrid amp? Any suggestions?


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Marty, are you testing or poking?
> The left and middle are AVO tube tester equipment, English.
> The blue tube tester on the right is Neuberger, German.



Well I was hoping that Alan would notice that two of the testers had English labels. 

These are BTW owned by a German tube seller on EBAY.


----------



## MartyStrat54

thrawn86 said:


> What should I be looking for in a 12AX7 for my Vox 30 watt hybrid amp? Any suggestions?



Not familiar with this amp. Is it tube pre and SS power? How many pre tubes?


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I was hoping that Alan would notice that two of the testers had English labels.
> 
> These are BTW owned by a German tube seller on EBAY.


His prices are kind of on the high side.
Check out the prices on the metal base EL34s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes he is. I'm helping some guy buy a quad of EL84's. Some are reasonably priced and some are over the top. $350 for an unmatched quad of Mullard EL84's? No thank you. I think the guy is going to get a NIB set of Siemens E84L's for $250.

If you remember, I sold a matched quad of 1954 Amperex and didn't even get close to $200 for them. Same with a quad of matched Telefunkens. Of course, these were used tubes. A lot of the German sellers have NIB Valvo, RFT's and Siemens.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Want to see a huge, massive (2) EL84 mono amp. He is selling a pair of them. Look at the iron on these amps!!!

Custom EL84 6BQ5 Mono Amplifiers Dynaco A 410 and Freed Transformers | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Take a break.
> Nice trade. When you say short bottle 6L6GC, black plates or some nice grays?



Well, it was a great trade, but it almost killed me. He let me take it home Thursday night and check it out. He'd already told me it wasn't working. I should mention that it's not in its original head box. Somebody took some treated pine deck boards and a miter box and tried to cut a top and bottom and two side pieces. It almost works actually except the joints are what you would expect with a hand-saw and hand-cut 45° angles. They fastened it together with deck screws, two per joint, and the fit isn't quite right. 

I took it apart and when I got into the chassis, the HT secondaries had been clipped in two at the power supply caps. I soldered them back, fired it up, and it seemed to be working. I should have been suspicious of the clipped wires. It had a 2-conductor cable but the polarity seemed to be matched, Anyway, I got somewhere in the neighborhood of 450VDC on the guitar cable as soon as I touched the jack to the amp's input. If it hadn't been an insulated cable, I would probably be dead. It smoked the power transformer; It's history. The delay pedal that the cable was hooked into was one that I had just picked up in a pawn shop for $10 the same day. It was a Digitech DigiDelay. It had a 4-second loop, and I'd been jamming with it for maybe 20 minutes when I tried the Silvertone. Sadly, it gave its life to protect the rest of the pedals. 

I've never seen anything quite like it. Usually if an old amp is out-of-phase, I get a little spark when I try to plug it in. This looked like an arc welder. 

Anyway, here's the 6L6GC. My camera battery is dead so I snagged one off the TubeMongerLib site. Maybe they won't mind me borrowing the image. It is exactly like the tube on the left except in the photo the red looks more like magenta.


----------



## mickeydg5

Wow, those amplifiers are solid. All that for 2 EL84s each at about 15 watts out.

I do not know much about EL84s but see all sorts of prices on them, of course depending.
I see Euroklang has a decent collection of NOS too.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Well, it was a great trade, but it almost killed me.
> I took it apart and when I got into the chassis, the HT secondaries had been clipped in two at the power supply caps. I soldered them back, fired it up, and it seemed to be working. I should have been suspicious of the clipped wires. It had a 2-conductor cable but the polarity seemed to be matched, Anyway, I got somewhere in the neighborhood of 450VDC on the guitar cable as soon as I touched the jack to the amp's input. If it hadn't been an insulated cable, I would probably be dead. It smoked the power transformer; It's history. The delay pedal that the cable was hooked into was one that I had just picked up in a pawn shop for $10 the same day. It was a Digitech DigiDelay. It had a 4-second loop, and I'd been jamming with it for maybe 20 minutes when I tried the Silvertone. Sadly, it gave its life to protect the rest of the pedals.
> 
> I've never seen anything quite like it. Usually if an old amp is out-of-phase, I get a little spark when I try to plug it in. This looked like an arc welder.


You better be much more careful than that. That is DC at that point and from what I understood from the description you made the chassis a 480VDC reference, according to a schematic. I am supprised more stuff did not explode and go up in flames, like capacitors and speakers too. A lot of amplifiers have their input jacks normally grounded, the 1484 does not. You completed the circuit at the input when plugging the cable into the jack.
wow  wow  wow


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I have bought Valvo tubes off of Euroklang.

Aren't those mono amps just crazy? Wow! Why would you need that large of iron on a 15 watt amp? Most of the generic Motorola "stereo console" amps would run two OPT's and they were so small I could hold two of them in one hand.

I also built an EL84 amp with custom Russian transformers. Real high dollar and custom built to my specs. The power tranny gave me about 310VDC with a 5U4G rectifier. It put out 17 watts @ .1 THD with E84L's in it. I sold it two years ago for $600. 

The company is Trafomatic. The specialize in toroidal transformers. I actually hooked up with one of their company rep's on EBAY. He isn't there anymore. I traded several emails with him and got all the spec's lined up and placed the order. I bought two each of everything, including a set of trannies for a 6L6GC project. Real quality stuff.

Trafomatic Audio - Trafomatic


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn ALAN..."be careful." You took a lot for granted. When I see clipped wires that is almost a 100 percent chance that some other tech put it out to pasture.


----------



## solarburn

Jeebus Alan! You are taking some trauma lately. That one could have ended it. I hate to see someone's tone search cost them their life! That's fucked up.

Becareful man.


----------



## thrawn86

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not familiar with this amp. Is it tube pre and SS power? How many pre tubes?



Sorry, should have specified............AD30VT.

The VOX Showroom - Vox AD30VT

It's only got one preamp tube. I really dig it though. I've been wanting to pipe the speaker cable from the amp to the 8" speaker into a jack so I can use it with my 4X12, as a potential backup. It's got some killer tones in the modeler.


----------



## RiverRatt

It was just one of those stupid things. I thought I had a cable that was untethered. It wasn't until the light show started that I realized what I had done. I was surprised that more shit didn't flame out too. I have a 1483 head and it's grounded at the inputs. Jesus, how did people keep from dying while using this gear?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. That is an unusual amp. The 12AX7 is part of a 1 watt power amp that is coupled to the SS amp. So the tube is a power tube, but in effect it is acting as a preamp tube. Interesting. I would still say that a premium tube would make a noticeable difference.

Also, the VOX website shows that the tube is difficult to remove. They suggest a small piece of foam at the top to prevent the tube from smacking into the circuit board. Also, they say to remove the wires from the speaker when changing out the tube. FYI.

I would try a Raytheon Black Plate.


----------



## iron broadsword

Alright, I just swapped V1 out for a fresh one in my JCM900 4100 and the difference was insane.. thing is I use Tung-Sol's in the preamp and that tube had only been in there about 5 months.. 100hrs or so on it, no more. V1 in the 4100 is a cathode follower, and tung-sol's apparently used to have issues there. Could it be that they still do have issues, or was it a fluke do you guys think? The tube was toast!

If I should look elsewhere for a V1 tube, what do you think I should get for current production that would sound similarish in tone? Also don't give me crap about the SS front end making tube swaps useless, cause that is just wrong.. V1 responds very well to different flavours of tubes.


----------



## solarburn

iron broadsword said:


> Alright, I just swapped V1 out for a fresh one in my JCM900 4100 and the difference was insane.. thing is I use Tung-Sol's in the preamp and that tube had only been in there about 5 months.. 100hrs or so on it, no more. V1 in the 4100 is a cathode follower, and tung-sol's apparently used to have issues there. Could it be that they still do have issues, or was it a fluke do you guys think? The tube was toast!
> 
> If I should look elsewhere for a V1 tube, what do you think I should get for current production that would sound similarish in tone? Also don't give me crap about the SS front end making tube swaps useless, cause that is just wrong.. V1 responds very well to different flavours of tubes.



I'll probably get shit for this but I have tried this tube and really dig it in V1 or tone slot in my amps.


www.thetubestore.com - Svetlana 12AX7 Audio Tubes


----------



## iron broadsword

Hmm, judging by the description that could possibly do the trick. I only run the DR's gain at just over half so less gain wouldn't really be an issue. I love the highs of the tung-sol but a darker tube might be nice cause the treble is run at 0 while the presence is at about half.. sounds great but it's a good thing I like a bright amp, haha.


----------



## solarburn

iron broadsword said:


> Hmm, judging by the description that could possibly do the trick. I only run the DR's gain at just over half so less gain wouldn't really be an issue. I love the highs of the tung-sol but a darker tube might be nice cause the treble is run at 0 while the presence is at about half.. sounds great but it's a good thing I like a bright amp, haha.



It's not as smooth or dark as a JJECC83S so it will react to EQing better. I didn't find it dark. Bet you will have plenty of gain. My OR15 came with these in V2 & V3 with a JJ 83S in V1. I got rid of the JJ cause I preferred a more dynamic ANOS tube I had in V1. I liked the mids in the Svetlanas. Sounded good in my Marshall too. They are not expensive to find out.


----------



## MM54

iron broadsword said:


> Alright, I just swapped V1 out for a fresh one in my JCM900 4100 and the difference was insane.. thing is I use Tung-Sol's in the preamp and that tube had only been in there about 5 months.. 100hrs or so on it, no more. V1 in the 4100 is a cathode follower, and tung-sol's apparently used to have issues there. Could it be that they still do have issues, or was it a fluke do you guys think? The tube was toast!
> 
> If I should look elsewhere for a V1 tube, what do you think I should get for current production that would sound similarish in tone? Also don't give me crap about the SS front end making tube swaps useless, cause that is just wrong.. V1 responds very well to different flavours of tubes.



I had one of those tung-sols go microphonic in V1 of my 4500 in about 2 weeks. Not sure why. Switched it out for an RCA blackplate and never looked back


----------



## MartyStrat54

The number one tube that I use in a DR is a very high gain Raytheon Black Plate. Over 20 satisfied customers. Most sent me detailed emails about how happy they are.

As I posted recently, a TAD 12AX7 is now my favorite CP tube.






www.thetubestore.com - TAD 7025-S / 12AX7 Audio Tubes


----------



## wakjob

4100 DR? 

I put an Amperex or Raytheon Black Plate in v1, Black Plate in v2, and believe it or not, a Tubestore Preferred Stock 7025 in v3... flippin' amazing! That 7025 was the game changer for that amp. 

No BS, but it could be the ONE P.S. 7025 I owned. No matter where I used that one particular tube, it always sounded great. It went down the road in an amp I modded for a friend. I just got another one in, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. I hope it's as good as the other one.

P.S. what is the fair market price for Amperex/Bugle Boy 12ax7 these days. I love the gain and harmonics of this tube.


----------



## wakjob

I also got these recently.


----------



## solarburn

Ok you guys are going beyond what he was looking at. I could have easily recommended NOS too.

The TAD qualifies though but I have no experience with it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wakjob-I feel that the 2nd most important tube in an amp is the PI tube. I like using high gain Sylvania Gray Plates that are lopsided. The PI is dumping the preamp signal to the power tubes, it has to be good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like "going beyond."


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like using high gain Sylvania Gray Plates that are lopsided.



Is that what I am looking at here? I wasn't sure it it was an optical illusion or if these things were kinda goofy. They look like they are melting or something. What purpose does the lopsided envelope serve? Is it intentional or just a happy accident? I think I may have one like this. I know I have one where all the pins seemed slanted. I noticed it when I was plugging it into my Vibro Champ and thought someone just bent them getting it into or out of an amp.  It's not as dramatic as tubes 1 & 4 below.....more like 2.



wakjob said:


>


----------



## MM54

I've had later red-label RCAs with the entire envelopse crooked on the glass of the base, so when the pins went straight down into the socket, the body of the tube was leaning over to the side several degrees. The QC by that point was pretty much gone and a lot of the late RCAs show it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Guys. guys. By lopsided I mean the triodes, not the glass or pins. For a long time, some tube guru's were stating to use a balanced tube in the PI. Now the consensus is to use a lopsided tube as this promotes a richer tone.

An example on my B and K 700 would be 30-42. Keep in mind that some people use a 12DW7 in the PI. this is 17-100 based on the amplification factor mU.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

I have had a 12dw7 for a while now. Must put an 12ax7 back in for my comparison. The difference seemed slight to me, then again, maybe my ears are getting old...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Funny you should say that. A guy did a blind test with about 10 musician's and they could not tell which amp had a 12AX7 or a 12DW7 in the PI. Really proves that a lopsided tube can be "real" lopsided and most people would not be able to tell the difference.


----------



## spikei

TAD 7025-S
Thanks Marty for your advise on the TAD, nice Valve in V1. For CP valve its very good. better than any other CP valve ive tried.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Funny you should say that. A guy did a blind test with about 10 musician's and they could not tell which amp had a 12AX7 or a 12DW7 in the PI. Really proves that a lopsided tube can be "real" lopsided and most people would not be able to tell the difference.


Do we have that on this forum?
Sounds like a good thread if someone is (or was) willing. More than one amplifier would be cool too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

spikei said:


> TAD 7025-S
> Thanks Marty for your advise on the TAD, nice Valve in V1. For CP valve its very good. better than any other CP valve ive tried.



You're welcome.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> Guys. guys. By lopsided I mean the triodes, not the glass or pins.





I've heard of unbalanced triodes. I thought you were letting some little known trade secret out because that picture.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Do we have that on this forum?
> Sounds like a good thread if someone is (or was) willing. More than one amplifier would be cool too.



MICKEY-Here are some of the links I was thinking about. I couldn't find all of them.

Blues Harp Amps: Testing the 12DW7 Phase Inverter Tube

Go to bottom third of this article for 12DW7 in phase inverter.

12DW7 preamp tube

I can't find the one on the blind sound test. I did post that link several times in various threads here in late 2009/2010. While doing a search, it gave me a link to the Marshall Forum that I participated in, but I did not post the link in this particular thread.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Would it be silly to say that unmatched power valves would be similar to using the 12dw7?


----------



## RiverRatt

Not silly, just incorrect 

We all know how a push-pull amplifier works; the audio signal is split by the phase inverter into two identical waveforms except that one wave is rising as the other is falling, sort of like a mirror image effect. The two waveforms overlap and with a balanced phase inverter the amplitude of the two waves is pretty much the same so you get a symmetrical wave. Something like this:






I added the top and bottom lines to represent the point at which clipping will occur. The resultant wave will start to resemble more of a series of cursive "r"s than a perfect sine wave.

Say we go to the extreme and put a 12DW7/7247 in our amp to serve as the phase inverter. This results in waveforms of different amplitudes being sent to our power amp, something like this:






Now the resultant combined waveform is very asymmetrical. The harmonic qualities of the wave have changed, but for the better? IMO you will definitely hear a distinct difference in tone. It's something like using two amps at once with one set very clean and the other set hot enough to cause clipping. Most of what people perceive as output tube distortion is actually the phase inverter clipping anyway, so right away you've given up half of your nice, smooth PI distortion.

I've tried these tubes in my amps and decided it doesn't work for me. I do still have a decent stash of 12DW7's - if anybody wants to try it for themselves, send me a PM.

Also, please excuse my lack of technical skills. If I screwed up the physics behind this, I apologize in advance so that hopefully no one will be compelled to flame my ass off.


----------



## mickeydg5

No flaming.

Actually there is a lot more to it than that, especially when throwing different PI designs and unbalanced power tubes into the mix to be compared.

Where is Wilder when you need him? He is kind of good at graphing this stuff out.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Thanks for the pics Alan, i get what you mean.
I had a chance to crank the old girl up last Saturday as we have a gig this Saturday night.
Your description sounds pretty good about like having 2 amps. The bottom end sounded very Hendrix like to me, kinda clean with a dirty growl to it. Maybe it was the Miniwatt 12ax7 in v1 that i changed to halfway through the jam that done the trick. Definitely a keeper.
Was trying to get my fingers going more than tone testing though, last proper gig we done was 2 yrs ago now... and i will be competing with our rhythm players new RR1959! Thinkin about getting an extra cab for a full stack to intimidate him a bit...

Also, feedback _seemed _a little less with the 12dw7, as mentioned in the links by Marty... we jammed in a small room but I could be wrong.

Thanks guys!
Hope John is just taking a break for a bit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I know there's a lot more going on and that pretty sine wave is only one part of the equation. Did I get it right on a very basic level though? I don't really want a Wilder physics lecture  I'm supposed to be working right now.


----------



## mickeydg5

Lets just say that each side of a 12DW7 has its own load line, operating points and clipping levels.

Also PI circuits are very unbalanced by nature but are desinged to produce a more balanced output. The inputs signal to each side of the PI tube is very different. So a 12DW7 can do more unbalancing than expected depending on how the PI circuit is setup which in some cases is not a good thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here is where it gets confusing. A typical guitar amp has 10% or greater component tolerance. Then the OPT is probably not going to be balanced. Even though the power tubes are matched, they are not perfect. If you put a "balanced" PI tube in the amp, it probably is redundant, due to the imbalance of other components. You could put in a lopsided tube that may actually balance the PI circuit, or a lopsided tube could make the circuit even more out of balance. Only a bench test with the proper equipment would show what is going on. However, as I stated, a perfectly balance PI may lend itself to a more sterile sound. Nowadays the consensus is to use a lopsided PI tube.

What is interesting is the guy who ran a 12DW7 in his Fender Twin and it did not improve the feedback issue. The 12AX7 and 12DW7 both had feedback at the same spot. Some claim that a 12DW7 will add more crunch while taking away from the clean.

Some tube guru's state that the PI tube is the most important tube in the amp. (See Myles Rose.) I am a firm believer in this and it is the reason I do not believe running any different "sub" tube in the PI slot if it came from the factory with a 12AX7. Yeah, you always hear from some guy that a 12AT7 "made all of the difference in his amp." What I always say about this is, "You bought the wrong amp." Why buy a high gain amp only to neuter it with a 12AT7 or 12AY7? Of course, if someone likes what a 12AT7 does for them in the PI, well I can't argue with it. I just laugh at all the threads where someone has a DSL/TSL amp and they put a 12AY7 in V1 and a 12AT7 in the PI and they say that it is the best the amp ever sounded. A DSL/TSL was designed as a high gain amp that gets its distortion with the preamp tubes. Neutering turns it into something else. Again, you bought the wrong amp. It is obvious that you do not need a high gain amp.

There will always be a controversy regarding the PI tube. I used to believe in a balanced PI tube, because that was the consensus 5-6 years ago. That has changed. You are only wasting money buying a balanced PI tube for your amp.

MICKEY-My favorite Marshall Forum tube story is where this old tech got on the tube thread and complained about a Marshall amp that he took in. He said the problem was that it had "too much gain." I jokingly replied, "Put a 12AU7 in V1." He got back with me a few days later and said I was a genius. The 12AU7 did the trick. LOL!


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes that is funny. That is a guy who does not like and should stay away from high gain amplifiers as you said.

Ricky was messing with an amplifier a while back. He was swapping out the PI tube. But his amplifier PI circuit design had the HIGH and LOW side of the PI circuit reversed from the way most are setup. To make things worse is that the PI circuit was specifically (or mistakenly) already designed to have an unbalanced output with a normal dual triode. When he put a 12DW7 in there it freaked out his amplifier and that can cause a blowout. He was totally puzzled not understanding what was going on there. He then tried a reverse 12DW7 which actually had decent or maybe even a more balanced output than the regular dual triode.

That is why I say take heed with the 12DW7 PI swap out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes you can get a 20/100 or a 100/20. 

I never heard of an amp with the circuit designed to make the PI unbalanced, unless it was some sort of mod to make the crunch tone more prominent.


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I never heard of an amp with the circuit designed to make the PI unbalanced, unless it was some sort of mod to make the crunch tone more prominent.



Check the schem of most (of not all) Marshalls - the tails off the PI are not the same value (something like 82k and maybe 68k? Or something like that, it's been a long time since I looked into it). This sends an unbalanced signal, as the two halves are not biased up the same.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Interesting. It must help make that classic Marshall tone.

Someone call Eurotubes and tell them that they need to quit pushing balanced PI tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I would call, but Bob kinda creeps me out in those videos. The goggles need to go. 

I have a guy who's started coming around the office talking tubes. You can tell he's bought into all that snake oil. He's the guy I got the Silvertone time bomb from. His main goal is to own a CP Tung-Sol reissue. I gave him a couple of Electro Harmonix 12AX7's - from what I can tell, they are the same tube. He didn't even want to mix different BRANDS of tubes in his amps. He also sold me the Silvertone with those beautiful old Sylvania 6L6GC's and 12AX7's in it and then wanted to know if I had any 6L6GC's for sale. I told him I could probably do a pair of RCA black plates and he said he couldn't use RCA's because he plays high gain stuff and they make his amp sound like a Fender. I have my work cut out for me on this one.


----------



## mickeydg5

You should tell him "Well RCA blackplate 6L6GCs average about $100+. I can sell you some better current production Tung-Sols for maybe $150."

When talking about PI circuits, Marshall sticks basically to one type of design. There are lots of other designs and modifications thereof. Ricky's amplfier I mentioned was not a Marshall and it did not have a commonly seen type of PI circuit.

But keep in mind that most if not all PI circuits are designed for and with the use of *balanced* dual triodes, if so used.


----------



## Lowlife

I've mentioned this before, but I run an unbalanced 12BZ7 Raytheon black plate as PI...I did a test involving all kinds of tubes balanced, unbalanced, CP and vintage...and it just-sounds-better....ironically the only thing that came as close in tone was a cheap JJ's.


----------



## mickeydg5

Like Marty says, he likes a strong unbalanced tube in the PI slot. You are not going to get much stronger than a 12BZ7 in that position. 
And the black plate Raytheons seem to be a plus there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Something about balanced tubes. On any given tester, if there is only a little bit of difference, I doubt if you could hear a sonic difference. On my B and K, I have tested 12AX7's and one side would be 30 and the other side would be 35, yet in an actual amp circuit, you can't tell that it is unbalanced.

Like I said, in that blind test involving a 12DW7. The panel couldn't tell the difference.

Maybe it is more critical in a HiFi amp where it is built within 1 to 5% on the components. I know that my HiFi customers are more demanding on how close the triodes match for the preamps.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is why I wanted to hear a 12AX7 and 12DW7 comparison with all the amplifier settings untouched and recorded exactly the same.

Then I might hear a difference when listening. If the knobs are touched it alters the output at the speakers as well as the feedback.

Someone do a test. I think I can tell the difference.

You will not hear a difference with 30 versus 35 tester rated lopsided tube because it is only a 14% difference on the push-pull signall. A 12DW7 will have more like a difference of about 60 -65% on the push-pull signal. That also means you are wearing one side of the power tubes out much quicker than the other.


----------



## johnfv

I bought a couple of "matched" tubes for the PI position a few years back and couldn't tell any difference good or bad. Don't know that I've ever tried a seriously unbalanced one. Call me crazy but I've had good results with 12AT7 as a PI in Marshalls.


----------



## RiverRatt

I remember trying a 12AT7 in my DSL head way, way back in this thread somewhere. I think I thought I liked it for about a week, then I tried a 12AX7 again and that was the end of the 12AT7 PI. IMO the 12AT7 can give you more of a cranked sound at lower volume, but you lose a lot of the dynamic response of the amp, kind of similar to using too much compression on the front end. 

My Bassman head uses a 12AT7 PI tube and it really doesn't like anything with more gain than that. A 5751 isn't bad, but it's still not as musical as the 12AT7. It's OK if you don't want especially clean tones. 

Any of you who like a 12AT7 PI tube, see if you can get your hands on a GE 6201 black plate triple-mica. They look almost identical to those old triple-mica 5751's and they sound excellent.


----------



## Riffraff

I had a package waiting for me when I got home today. 

Love delivery day.....even on small stuff like this.

GE 6072











Sylvania 12AZ7A






Unknown 12AX7A RCA?






Tung-Sol 12AX7A


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anything made in 1948 has to be good.

Great score.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those JG military equivalents are always nice and I'm sure the 6072 is no exception. That is to a 12AY7 as the 6201 I mentioned is to a 12AT7. Be aware that the 6072/12AY7's draw a lot of filament current; around 350mA. If your transformer is already maxed out, it could cause problems.

If you need any more 12AV7's, let me know. I have several. I tried them in the JMP1C and they aren't bad as a power tube. It calls for either one or two 12AT7's and according to SteveG from Marshall, they can use just about any of the B9A twin triodes. I ended up using a pair of 12BH7's which IIRC is a horizontal deflector tube used in TV circuits but they are pretty much a drop-in replacement for 12AT7's in an audio circuit.

Sometime, we should all put our heads together and list all these equivalent tubes. There are so many that I can't keep up with them. I have around 10 or 15 tube reference books in PDF format on my iPhone. It comes in handy when I'm out picking tubes.


----------



## solarburn

The majority of members here are a bit unbalanced too I'm betting...

That's why I fit in.LOL


----------



## thrawn86

Yes, yes you do Joe.

So I've been running the balanced tube in the PI slot, should I pick up something else for it?


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Help me pick a good PI tube for Sat night guys, i can't decide as they all sound great... Spending more time chasing tone than playing songs!

Say just one from what i got below, if you can..._ Maybe_ two in order of preference.
We should be playing LOUD unless it bloody rains!
I have settled with the Phillips Miniwatt in V1, and Raytheon Black Plate in V2,
The tubes i have for V3 are...
Mullard I61
Amperex 7025A
Tungsram
EI
Matsushita


Rock on!


----------



## solarburn

vintagevoltage351 said:


> Help me pick a good PI tube for Sat night guys, i can't decide as they all sound great... Spending more time chasing tone than playing songs!
> 
> Say just one from what i got below, if you can..._ Maybe_ two in order of preference.
> We should be playing LOUD unless it bloody rains!
> I have settled with the Phillips Miniwatt in V1, and Raytheon Black Plate in V2,
> The tubes i have for V3 are...
> Mullard I61
> Amperex 7025A
> Tungsram
> EI
> Matsushita
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rock on!



EI in the PI.

I really like your V1 & V2 picks.


----------



## solarburn

thrawn86 said:


> Yes, yes you do Joe.
> 
> So I've been running the balanced tube in the PI slot, should I pick up something else for it?



It may be good to try a lopsided one just to see what happens. Bottom line though is if you like how it is then fine. Play it! Preamp tubes will give you whatever character they have whether balanced or not. You know even 2 of the same tube can sound a bit different. Crafty bastards they are...

I think you should join the "Lop-sider" club of which many of us are members...as I eluded to above...


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> Sometime, we should all put our heads together and list all these equivalent tubes.



 SHHHHHHH 

I've been slowly collecting tubes trying to cover the full gain spectrum from 12AU7 through high gain 12AX7. Why? Don't know really but what good is a ratchet if you don't have all the sockets, right? 

I've read that 6072's are the bomb in V1 of a Tweed. The closest thing I have to a Tweed are my 1482's but they may not be a safe testing ground. I'll have to look into that. I'm probably safer trying it in my SFVC or T15 which should be able to handle the higher filament current. The 12AZ7A might be better for the 1482 but I've heard they tend to be microphonic. I guess I should pick up some of those silicone tube dampers for that.


----------



## Riffraff

Just checked the spec sheets and see the 12AZ7A is the one with a much higher filament current (0.45 vs 0.3 on a 12AX7). The 6072 is actually very close in current draw, 0.35A.

So.... a Silvertone 1482 has the following on the heater circuit:

6V6GT .45 X 2 = .9
12AX7 .3 X 2 = .6
6X4 .6 X 1 = .6
6AU6 .3 X 1 = .3
#47 lamp X 1 = .15
_____
2.55A

The 6072 in place of a 12AX7 will add 0.05A
The 12AZ7A in place of a 12AX7 will add .15A

I would hope Dano left at least that much breathing room.

The PT doesn't seem to be marked with a part number and there is no info on the schematic. I'm having trouble finding the specs on aftermarket versions as well. It would be helpful to know the ampere rating on the PT's 6.3V winding. Does anyone know it? I suppose I could pull the lamp out of the indicator, that would bring me right back to spec for a test drive. I can probably find a lamp based LED to replace the #47. I sell a boat load of similar types to customers. 
There's the answer.

******** UPDATE ***********

Tried them all in V1 of my 1482. MY 1482 is slightly modified. I've replaced the speaker baffle with birch ply and the stock Fisher with the same series of CTS alnico's that are popular in mid '70s Super Reverb's only it's the 12" version. I started with a new JJ803S gold pin for comparison sake. First I tried the 6072 and it ate the JJ for lunch. I was a little surprised because I figured the 6072 being a 12AY7 would be lower output but it actually seemed to boost gain over the JJ. It was 1000X livelier. Great touch sensitivity. I could hold a note and it would swell into musical feedback with the guitar's volume rolled up and if I rolled it back a touch it retained it's tonal qualities. All & all it's open, punchy, full & clear sounding. It made my little Silvertone seem very Fenderish. Very nice indeed. Next came the 12AZ7A. Also very nice, not quite as open as the 6072 but light years ahead of the JJ. Then I tried the mystery 12AX7A that looks almost like an RCA. Noticeable drop in volume & clarity, a bit darker, similar to the JJ. Last came the Tung-Sol 12AX7A.....HOLY SHIT GOOD is really all I can say! Really, really nice. I had to pull it and put the 6072 back in for a side by side. I wasn't sure which I wanted to leave in there. It was a lot like the 6072 only with more balls. Probably my favorite tube in my collection right now. I considered pulling V2 and using both but couldn't decide which to leave in V1. In the end I put this NOS Sylvania long plate in the PI figuring a nice strong tube would be good there and would help enhance what the 6072 already has going for it in the touch & feel department. 






That leaves the Tung-Sol available for the V1 slot of my Tweaker. Time to try that out......


----------



## mickeydg5

Riffraff
The heater secondary on that PT can handle a good bit over the 2.55A being used. An extra .15A will not make much difference.

It will be interesting to see what differences you hear with the Silvertone 1482.


----------



## wakjob

We know that many of the good tube factories from days of yore produced tubes and relabeled them for whomever.

I'd like to see a separate thread with a definitive list and pictures of what else a Mullard, Telefunken, Raytheon, GE, ect... can look like.

I have been looking, and have access to old amps everywhere, and see tubes with all kinds of weird ink/writing on them. Hell, they could be golden treasures and I wouldn't know just buy looking at them. 

I wish I had Marty or Alan's eyes and knowledge of tubes.


----------



## Riffraff

Thanks Mickey - I put the lamp back in the pilot assembly and now it doesn't light.......go figure.  

The Tung-Sol is back in the 1482. It was just too damn good in there. I also pulled the 6V6GT's and put 6K6GT's in. 

So the keepers are...

V1 - Tung-Sol 12AX7A
V2 - Baldwin labeled Sylvania 12AX7 long plate
Power - 6K6GT (1 Sylvania lightning bolt green label & 1 Wizard branded Sylvania)

6X4 & 6AU6 - Stock Silvertone labeled Sylvania

It sounds EXCELLENT!! 

There you go wakjob, lots of relabeled tubes just like your sayin'. Here's another relabel in my collection that surprised me. 






I was told it is a '66 Mullard from the Blackburn factory but it's labeled Amperex Bugle boy. Two big names in a single tube.  I wasn't aware that the big guys were trading tubes with each other too. I know it happened towards the end with the US manufacturers. I guess there was a similar situation in Europe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sweet-I read the review over on the POWER TUBES thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wakjob-Yes tube manufacturer's did trade tubes "in an orderly manner" in the early days up until around 1965. After that it gets a little weird. By the mid 70's it was down right pathetic. 

It would be difficult to start a thread with the info you are wanting. The best thing to do is post pictures of unknown tubes here, or a link on unknown tubes that you need identified. I would be happy to evaluate them for you. Alan too.


----------



## Riffraff

Hey Marty was Mullard & Amperex the same company at some point (acquisition)? I see a lot of "Mullard/Amperex" references on the internet. I'm a little green on all the name changes through the years.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You've heard us talk about Philips? Philips owned a bevy of tube companies including Amperex and Mullard. They traded tubes a lot depending on demand. Amperex relabeled a lot of the early EL34's from Mullard.

Also the design were similar. Philips provided each division with generic designs and each location developed their own tubes off of these designs utilizing their own chemicals and assembly techniques.


----------



## RiverRatt

Riffraff said:


> Just checked the spec sheets and see the 12AZ7A is the one with a much higher filament current (0.45 vs 0.3 on a 12AX7). The 6702 is actually very close in current draw, 0.35A.



I'm sorry - I was reading about all those tubes fairly recently while looking for good power tube candidates for my 1-watter, and I focked it all up. Write me up for Posting Under the Influence. 

The AV7 and AZ7 are indeed the ones with the higher filament draw. I was mainly trying to find out some info about the 12BH7's and their use in my JMP1C. They draw twice the current of a 12AX7.


----------



## Riffraff

I do recall hearing about the Philips/Amperex relation but I didn't know they owned Mullard too.



RiverRatt said:


> I'm sorry - I was reading about all those tubes fairly recently while looking for good power tube candidates for my 1-watter, and I focked it all up. Write me up for Posting Under the Influence.



No harm done bro, they are all close enough that it didn't matter in the end. But in my dumbass paranoia I managed to kill my indicator lamp.  It came out as easy as can be but I could not get it to go back into the socket to save my life. It sits so deep in the socket that you can't turn it to get the pins on the bayonet base to grab. Aggravating little shit. I bet it's not even bad, it's probably just not seating right. I'll check it with a DMM. I need to make some kind of tool to get it back in. I see motor control companies sell them for relamping their illuminated push buttons & pilot lamps, now I know why. Most use #5 slide bases so you don't have to fight with them but I suppose they wouldn't be a good choice for vibration applications like in a little screaming combo.


----------



## RiverRatt

Next time I send you a tube I'll throw in a handful of #47 lamps. I have several that I've collected from TV shops. I have some #55's too. Marty, if you ever need NOS for your tube tester, let me know.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> wakjob-Yes tube manufacturer's did trade tubes "in an orderly manner" in the early days up until around 1965. After that it gets a little weird. By the mid 70's it was down right pathetic.
> 
> It would be difficult to start a thread with the info you are wanting. The best thing to do is post pictures of unknown tubes here, or a link on unknown tubes that you need identified. I would be happy to evaluate them for you. Alan too.



Cool. Thanks Marty. I'm going to harvest a few pre's tomorrow. 12ax7 & 12at7's.

I know one is an Amperex like the one pictured above with tube dude blowing the trumpet or whatever. 2 Telefunkens, 1 maybe 2 Raytheons, bunch of RCA and GE's, and a Mullard.

Depending how much time I have and how things go, I'll try my best to do physical comparisons with all the other mystery tubes to the known/labeled ones.


----------



## wakjob

How are GE 'made in Great Britain' grey plates? Anything worth keeping? Or just meh?

Upon closer inspection, I have three. Two are the same, but one is completely different. It has silver between the plates, and is configured/built different than the others.


----------



## big dooley

johnfv said:


> I bought a couple of "matched" tubes for the PI position a few years back and couldn't tell any difference good or bad. Don't know that I've ever tried a seriously unbalanced one.



actually i do...

my JVM has a JJ 12DW7, while my AFD has a reversed triode JJ 12DW7
the reason for that, is that i use both heads in a stereo setup, with each poweramp driving their own pair of speakers, and they are 180 degrees out of phase of eachother... 
to cope with phase cancellation (and losing to much low end) i went for these lopsided tubes in the PI... one amp at the upper peak, won't be too much cancelled out by the amp that does the same peak, but out of phase... that's why i had to use a regular and a reversed 12DW7

as for doing it in a single amp setup, i wouldn't recommend it, except when the poweramp is really cranked and you want some more second order harmonics...
on high gain preamp applications, where the DC-coupled cathode follower has this job, putting an 12DW7 in the PI, could actually "neutralise" its effect imo, and neuter the overall warmth of the tone

the out of phase thing started of as something that i didn't took into account when combining these two heads together, but i somehow liked the widespread sound... then i came up with the idea to use different speakers for each amplifier (V30's for the JVM and G12H30's for the AFD) and run lopsided PI's


----------



## RiverRatt

All the GE/Great Britain tubes I've seen have been Mullard I63's. Not my favorite Mullard, but not meh either.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

solarburnDSL50 said:


> EI in the PI.
> 
> I really like your V1 & V2 picks.




Ei Ei for the PI!

Thanks solar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like your setup Dooley and it makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> All the GE/Great Britain tubes I've seen have been Mullard I63's. Not my favorite Mullard, but not meh either.



It's hard to get a Mullard that isn't an I63 or I65. Yeah, they were made on the tail end of things, but they are still Mullards and better than most.

I haven't had any long plates for over two years now.


----------



## MartyStrat54

wakjob said:


> How are GE 'made in Great Britain' grey plates? Anything worth keeping? Or just meh?
> 
> Upon closer inspection, I have three. Two are the same, but one is completely different. It has silver between the plates, and is configured/built different than the others.



Post a picture of the one with silver between the plates.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> Post a picture of the one with silver between the plates.



I just tried. I'm gonna have to wait until I can do it in some sunlight. My camera sucks.


----------



## big dooley

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like your setup Dooley and it makes perfect sense to me.



i recorded a comparison clip once but i lost it... need to look into it again or redo that session

mainly speaking it was the AFD preamp into both poweramps (that way i could flip the phase of both poweramps by engaging the AFD's FX-loop) 
both amps were hard panned to left and right
1st clip was both heads in phase with JJ 12AX7's in the PI 
2nd clip both heads out of phase with JJ 12AX7's in the PI
3rd clip both heads out of phase with JJ 12DW7's in the PI
for the recording i used palmer PDI09's so the only difference that can be heard are the amps themselves and not the speakers (which helps a lot too) i wanted to make sure that the perceived difference came from the 12DW7's as well and not only the speakers... it sure made a difference allright 

i know that getting true stereo can be achieved by using a choruspedal for example, but i don't like the phase shifting character that comes with that...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I tried several different techniques when I ran the two Bassman's in the 90's. I think my favorite was a four channel mini-mixer. I ran certain FX in the loop on the mixer and had my OD and distortion in front of the mixer. It took me an afternoon messing with it to get the levels right, but that worked pretty good. I put a 212 FANE cab on one side of the stage by the other guitarist and one behind me on the opposite side of the stage. Using a phaser, flanger or chorus put out a huge sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have an old DOD FX65 Stereo Chorus and you can set it for very little modulation and still get stereo separation. Sometimes I like running a little delay on one amp. I replaced the Digitech DigiDelay on my pedalboard that burned out during a little mishap with a f'ed up old Silvertone amp. It will do modulated delay that isn't as drastic as the chorus pedal but still gives you a nice stereo sound. That pedal with my stereo chorus on the board gives me three outputs, so I can have one dry, one chorus, and one delay. It can get pretty heavy! 

Sometimes I like to run a univibe clone against a dry amp for stereo sounds. It seems like this approach works better with a strat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Sometimes I like to run a univibe clone against a dry amp for stereo sounds. It seems like this approach works better with a *STRAT!*.



See Robin Trower.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have seen Mr. Trower a time or two.


----------



## MM54

I have Bridge of Sighs on vinyl, damn good album


----------



## RiverRatt

That concert that the crappy cell phone photo came from is the loudest I think I've ever heard. We were crowding the stage in a room that maybe held a few hundred people. I had earplugs and my ears were still ringing when it was over.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah a 412 cab can kill your ears. It looks like because of the size of the venue they were only micing the vocals and maybe the drums some?

Looks like one head is a 4 holer and the other might be a JCM MV.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, one was a JCM800. I think the other was a 1959 but I couldn't see it well enough to be sure. It was loud as hell! There was what looked like a Marshall Power Brake on top of the JCM800 but it must not have been doing anything. Trower's pants legs were flapping in the breeze. It was hitting us like a punch in the face.


----------



## wakjob

Here's about the best shot I can get of the GE.









Got one of these too.


----------



## wakjob

And, can someone ID this ECC82?


----------



## wakjob

Got a beautiful Sylvania blackplate 12at7
Another Telefunken shortplate 12ax7
Raytheon MIJ 12ax7
RCA's out the wazoo 
Mullard IEC 7025
Amperex 12ax7 with the tube dude on it.

There's a handful of odd named tubes that I can get too. Need to get more educated first.


----------



## RiverRatt

The last tube looks like an RFT. The GE/Mullard doesn't look right. Does it have factory codes on it near the bottom? If it's a Mullard, it should have one that is like I63 or I65 and underneath that a code that starts with a letter "B" and has four digits.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I agree with Alan. That last tube has the classic heavy RFT getter flash and what is left of the logo seems to ring a bell with me that it's an RFT.

Where was the silver on the GE? The plates look to be standard GE design and the top of the tube is smooth.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where was the silver on the GE? The plates look to be standard GE design and the top of the tube is smooth.



I can't get a solid pic of the plates on the GE because of the labeling. But in between the plates OR the inside of the plates looks 'chromed'. I can see it on the side of the plates that have an edge, the non-folded side if you will. Right above the 't' in Electronic, where those tabs are is chrome/silver looking too.

For the ECC82, all that's left is that faint yellow V, part of the 12**7 and the ECC82... no other markings left.

How about those IEC Mullards? Decent sounding?


----------



## mickeydg5

It looks like a regular small box GE 12AX7 to me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The old Mullard long plates had the most magic. However, it became the consensus of the tube manufacturer's that the short plates were less prone to microphonics and everyone switched over to this design, both USA and European companies.

That being said, the I61, I63 and I65 Mullards are for the most part good sounding tubes and better than a current production tube. I sell a lot of I65's and these were made at the tail end of Mullard's production.


----------



## wakjob

mickeydg5 said:


> It looks like a regular small box GE 12AX7 to me.



Yeah, prolly is. It's just built different than the other two in the amp. They are satin gray both inside and out from what I can see.

I kept this one, but can go back and get the others when ever I want.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think I've got it. You are seeing the inside part of the plates which is silvery. They aren't coated like the outside parts. Each plate has two identical halves so that when you put them back to back, they enclose the tube filament in a little box. Each plate has little tabs on the top and bottom that fit through the mica spacers. Some companies leave them as-is, others twist them slightly to lock them in place, others bend down the outside tab so that you see the shiny side of the opposing tab. I believe this tube is a Matsushita or it may have been some other Philips 12AX7. You can see that the tabs on the plates aren't lined up well and you can see the silver side showing on almost all of them. You'll also see it on the ones that have a hole cut in one side of the plate structure but not the other.


----------



## RiverRatt

And by all means, go get every one of those 12AX7's! Make an offer on everything and when they are yours we'll help you sort out what you have.


----------



## wakjob

^
Bingo Alan! That's what I'm seeing here.


----------



## wakjob

^
Bingo Alan! That's what I'm seeing here.

I'll get as many as I can. I need to replace the ones I take with something else so...


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll send you dozens of 12AU7's, 6CG7's, 12BY7's, 6GH8A's, etc. to exchange - just slide me a few choice AX7's!


----------



## MartyStrat54

If Alan's house caught on fire it would sound like a popcorn popper.


----------



## RiverRatt

Actually the vast majority are sitting out in the garage. These are the weird compactrons, sweep tubes, loctal, x-ray, etc.

I do have a few on my computer desk, and sitting near my amps in cardboard boxes, a couple or three caddies, some plastic containers sorted according to type, and they also tend to turn up in strange places. 

One of my computer desk tubes I just noticed is a 6HV5A that I'm taking to my HAM radio guy. It requires a minimum of 900V on the plates to operate. That sounds right up his alley.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love those old "boat anchors" as they are affectionately called. Some serious power supplies in them babies. Most have a separate heater transformer.

I used to hang for a while on the Boat Anchor Forum. A lot of nice guys over there.


----------



## RiverRatt

He had me sell a set of four NOS NIB Amperex 4CX-250B broadcast tubes for him on eBay. That's enough juice to power a 2,000 to 3,000 watt radio station.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> If Alan's house caught on fire it would sound like a popcorn popper.





Boy Alan, you are spitting out some types I need to look up now.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> I used to hang for a while on the Boat Anchor Forum. A lot of nice guys over there.



I discovered that a few months ago while looking for a schematic for my Masco. I've since bought and sold some stuff there.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> I have seen Mr. Trower a time or two...


'76 in San Antonio. Point Blank opened.


----------



## RiverRatt

That was 2008 in Memphis. I didn't get to see him back in the day. I was probably around 16 when I went to my first real concert. As soon as my mother thought I could handle the 100-mile drive to Memphis. I made up for lost time. Cheap Trick, .38 Special, Rush, Styx, Seger, John Cooter Mellonhead (with a guest appearance by John Prine), The Fabulous Thunderbirds, Kiss, AC/DC, Van Halen, and several more that I'm sure I went to but don't remember. I went to sleep during Bob Seger's show.


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> '76 in San Antonio. Point Blank opened.



Holy shit! I have that Point Blank album around here somewhere. The one with all the plugs and cords coming off one socket.

American Exce$$ (MCA) 1981 - includes "Nicole" and "Let Me Stay with You Tonight." Nicole was their only song to get much airplay.

1976 was an excellent time to see Trower. I saw him in Oklahoma City in 1975 on the Earth Below Tour. He did songs off of Twice Removed From Yesterday and Bridge of Sighs. That concert made a big impact on me. I had been really digging him ever since 1974. The last time I saw him live was 1979, Victim of the Fury Tour. I was in the Air Force and stationed in Midwest City (part of OKC). He played at the Myriad Convention Center. For concerts it is at least 20,000. He was still big in 79.

Although being an old fuck, I first saw Trower with Procol Harum in 1969.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, you are old! I turned three that year. I do remember the Appolo 11 launch and landing from 1969. My parents made me watch it. I had one of those G.I. Joe Mercury capsules. I remember practicing splashdown landings by dropping it off the top of my bunk beds.


----------



## brp

Hey guys, Long time no pop into the Tubes thread. I hope all are well.

I know Marty has answered this for me before but I forgot what he said 

Is there a tube particularly suited for MIC tube preamps, other than the 12AX7?
Or a NOS brand well reknowned for such use? 
Or is it just a matter of how much saturation you after? (which I suppose you could just control with the preamp gain, making the 12ax7 most versatile. Maybe I'm answering my own questions here lol)

I just picked up a dual channel MIC preamp I've been eyeing for awhile.


----------



## Riffraff

brp said:


> Is there a tube particularly suited for MIC tube preamps, other than the 12AX7?



The 6072 (low noise 12AY7) is popular in MIC preamp applications.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...I first saw Trower with Procol Harum in 1969.


Wow, killer. I'm with Alan, I do remember staying up for the moon landing 

Point Blank was touring their first album at this show. It was much more a ZZ clone at that point. Trower was great of course...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I knew that. American Exce$$ was a 1981 release. Point Blank formed in like 1972 or 74.

They never quite got out of the chute.


----------



## MartyStrat54

brp said:


> Is there a tube particularly suited for MIC tube preamps, other than the 12AX7?
> 
> I just picked up a dual channel MIC preamp I've been eyeing for awhile.



Well, there are several low noise 12AX7 deviants that came out after the 12AX7. They are a better choice for the microphone due to their low noise floor.

12AD7 (October 10, 1955 - 225mA heater - low noise/low hum)
12DF7 (A_v = 100, low microphonics) usually Westinghouse brand
12DT7 (A_v = 100) Raytheon
12DM7 (low noise) Raytheon
7729: CBS made industrial vacuum tube with gold pins for special applications requiring reliability and low noise/low microphonics.

A NOS 12AY7 is a good choice, but it has a much lower gain factor.
12AY7 (December 7, 1948 - A_v = 44, for audio preamp use)

Although many of the above tubes were sold under USA brands, the truth is most of these tubes were developed over in Japan.

I have four premium NEC 12AD7's in stock. I will PM you the price.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought mics typically used a low-mU tube like a 12AU7?

I'm discovering that a good 6201 can be the next best thing to a 5751. If you want that tone with a little less gain, they deliver. They are a 12AT7 sub but are more rugged and more musical too, IMO.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That 7729 is the Holy Grail for a tube mic, because it has a very flat frequency response. In a HiFi application, some will say it is too sterile, but when used in a mic for recording is where it shines. Finding one new in box will demand some $$$.



> 7729 - This is another industrial tube like the 12DF7 above, manufactured for critical industrial, avaition, or medical uses. This tube is nearly always seen as CBS manufacture, and has thickly plated gold pins. Sometimes the equipment manufacturer put their part numbers or ID label right over the CBS label. Rarely found today but sometimes boxes of them turn up in the back hangars of avaition equipment suppliers and small aircraft maintenance shops. Superior in every way for audio use!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is a great page I stumbled on. Nicely written by a knowledgeable guy.

The Amp Garage :: View topic - Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

Joe and Marty - I started a tube contest over in The Tone Zone. Go over there and check it out. Since we three judged the last one, I thought we'd might as well stick to what works. Only if you want to of course. 

Everybody else, check it out. Enter to increase your chance of winning.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is a great page I stumbled on. Nicely written by a knowledgeable guy.
> 
> The Amp Garage :: View topic - Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes





Now that's what I'm talking about.


----------



## JohnDanese

Total Newb on this forum. This thread is so amazing. 

Marty, I have a JCM2000 DSL 100 Watt head. On this thread forum I have 1) FOUND A great video on how to Bias my power tubes 2) learned about the V1-4 preamp tubes and learned things I had NO IDEA about just a day ago! LOL.

I have NEVER replaced any tubes on this amp (had it like 8 years) and obviously it is overdue for Power Tubes. The Slo-Blo 1 amp fuse keeps blowing so I think the time is now to change 'em out. I read quite a few things about how The Power tubes are apt to go on you due to the heat and all and hear the pre-amp tubes are not Vital to replaced and this thread kinda changed my mind so. I am going with JJ KT77's to replace the Marshall EL34's and I called Doug to pick his brain about preamp. He suggested the Tonekit below on his site to replace the Marshall ECC83's: 

So My 3 Question for the Forum: 

Preamp Kit:
Two options when ordering are 

1)-High Gain (love Bluesey Warm tone but can also rock out: (I am thinking No High )Gain.

2)-Matched and Balanced Phase Inverter ( I am thinking Yes?)

(For the Power Tubes I am Going Average Gain.)

3) The Bias on the Power tubes are relitively easy to set but here is the DUMB question: Preamp Tubes DONT get Biased separately right, My amp has a three prong port for bias settings. I see that people change out the preamp tubes often to try out tones. Does the Bias need testing each time you do that? ( I know Dumb question but want to be sure).

Preamp Cocktail:
*V1 - Tung 12AX7*
*V2 - Penta Labs 12AX7*
*V3 - Penta Labs 12AX7*
*V4 - Sovtek 12AX7 LPS*


----------



## MM54

Preamp tubes do not need biased when you change them.

What's your playing style and what are you looking for with the new tubes? That will help in making suggestions as to what to get.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JohnD-I don't step on other tube dealers recommendations. The Tung-Sol is basically the "standard" V1 tube because of the tone you get for the money. The Penta Lab tubes I believe are Shuguangs (Chinese) and they tend to be high gain. I see a lot of guys using the Sovtek LPS in the PI. 

If you have read some of this thread, I want you to know that it is very old and I have changed my opinion on some things. Right now, it is the major consensus of tube dealers that you "do not" need a balanced tube for the PI. Your amp is built with 10 percent components. The output transformer is not balanced and your power tubes, while matched are still slightly different. Using a non balanced tube will generally result in thicker harmonics.

I feel that V1 is the most important tube and the PI tube is right behind it. 

Just realize this. The DSL/TSL amps were designed to get their distortion from the preamp. These amps "love" good V1 and V2 tubes.

Right now, my favorite V1 is the TAD 7025S/12AX7. I think it is $35, but it is a very nice current production V1.

I have sold tube sets for a lot of DSL amps and as I said, you can't go wrong if you put in a solid V1 and V2 and a CP in V3 and a good PI tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Joe and Marty - I started a tube contest over in The Tone Zone. Go over there and check it out. Since we three judged the last one, I thought we'd might as well stick to what works. Only if you want to of course.
> 
> Everybody else, check it out. Enter to increase your chance of winning.



Not a problem ALAN. Will do. I just hope it goes better than when we gave away $250 worth of tubes and we got a handful of entries.

I'm sure I have something at my end to sweeten the pot. I'll look through my inventory. If the contest takes off, I'll PM you with what I got and let you make the announcement.


----------



## JohnDanese

Thanks! Guess what? Didn't order the tubes yet. As I said, the fuse started blowing and that got me started on thinking time for tubes. 

Well after I posted the above post , I picked up my amp head and heard a rattling inside the chassis as if something fell in there. I opened it up, removed the chassis and CRAZY, a ceramic resister was out of the board and broken open!! 

Each power tube has a big white ceramic 5 watt resister and one just looked like it melted the solder right off! It was shattered and off the board! I cannot imagine how this can happen!?! 

Anyway , called Marshall today and they are sending me a resister. Hopefully I can just solder it on and replace the tubes and all will be well! Is it possible that the power tube became too hot and melted that resister ?? 

Thanks for the advice. I will go with your suggestions Marty as it seems you know these Marshall's , tubes and been on here long enough to get a consensus.

Ill let you all know what happens !


----------



## JohnDanese

This is where resistor WAS.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damn, that looks like it got way hot way quick! If it had been baking for long, the board around it should have been more discolored.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just so you know. With my electronic experience, when a resistor of that type blows like that, I would check with what is ahead of it in the circuit to see if anything else is bad.

Just replacing the bad resistor may only cure the problem for a short time.


----------



## JohnDanese

MartyStrat54 said:


> Just so you know. With my electronic experience, when a resistor of that type blows like that, I would check with what is ahead of it in the circuit to see if anything else is bad.
> 
> Just replacing the bad resistor may only cure the problem for a short time.


 

I am afraid you are right. I just hate to send my amp to a repair shop. It always seems that it takes months to get em back. I guess I was hoping it was the tube quitting out? You are right though.


----------



## JohnDanese

RiverRatt said:


> Damn, that looks like it got way hot way quick! If it had been baking for long, the board around it should have been more discolored.


 

Yeah, I was playing and Snap, Crackle, Pop, The thing went "crispy" and the 1 amp fuse went out. ( I though it was just a fuse). 
No idea why the Ceramic Broke as well! It must of shot off like gun powder!


----------



## JohnDanese

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would check with what is ahead of it in the circuit to see if anything else is bad.


 

This is the resistor all the way down at the last Power Tube furthest from the PreAmps! I think almost EVERYTHING is ahead of it?


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Well after I posted the above post , I picked up my amp head and heard a rattling inside the chassis as if something fell in there. I opened it up, removed the chassis and CRAZY, a ceramic resister was out of the board and broken open!!
> 
> Each power tube has a big white ceramic 5 watt resister and one just looked like it melted the solder right off! It was shattered and off the board! I cannot imagine how this can happen!?!


That apperars to be the screen resistor (R76) for V8. 
I have read something like this a while back and believe it had the resistor split open like that one. Some types just crack and some crack in half. It may have even been a JCM2000, not sure. In that series some of amplifiers seem to have board problems.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's why I like old school amps. The screen resistors are on the bottom of the socket where they belong. I remember the first time I looked inside a TSL. Man what is all that SS shit doing to the signal?


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> That apperars to be the screen resistor (R76) for V8.
> I have read something like this a while back and believe it had the resistor split open like that one. Some types just crack and some crack in half. It may have even been a JCM2000, not sure. In that series some of amplifiers seem to have board problems.


 
Is that what these big ceramic guys are called, Screen Resistors? Yeah it is a 5Watt resistor for Valve # 8 for sure.

Yeah this baby must have just said CRACK outta nowhere. I gig but maybe once a month. 

Maybe after a while the ceramic just cracks over the years and that is what happened. The amp has worked perectly fine before this.

I am thinking of just soldering a new one one, replacing the tubes, BIAS the tubes and hope it dont happen again. 

If there is a part in that area one would suggest I put my multi meter on to test, please advise. I found schematics here:

Amp Archives/Marshall/Schematics & Layouts/Marshall Amp Schematics/JCM 2000 Series/DSL50 & DSL100

Not sure if they are helpful. (not an electric tech). If there is a setting I should put my MultiMeter on and touch two points can someone tell me what ones and what the reading should be (obviously with this system unplugged and off).

Thanks Gurus!


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Is that what these big ceramic guys are called, Screen Resistors? Yeah it is a 5Watt resistor for Valve # 8 for sure.
> 
> Yeah this baby must have just said CRACK outta nowhere. I gig but maybe once a month.
> 
> Maybe after a while the ceramic just cracks over the years and that is what happened. The amp has worked perectly fine before this.
> 
> I am thinking of just soldering a new one one, replacing the tubes, BIAS the tubes and hope it dont happen again.
> 
> If there is a part in that area one would suggest I put my multi meter on to test, please advise. I found schematics here:
> 
> Amp Archives/Marshall/Schematics & Layouts/Marshall Amp Schematics/JCM 2000 Series/DSL50 & DSL100
> 
> Not sure if they are helpful. (not an electric tech). If there is a setting I should put my MultiMeter on and touch two points can someone tell me what ones and what the reading should be (obviously with this system unplugged and off).
> 
> Thanks Gurus!


I used schematics to verify your board and the parts around tube V8 which show up in your picture. Those are referred to as screen resistors because they are connected to the screen electrode of the power tube. They are not always gigantic ceramic wirewound resistors but ceramics are larger than most. Any type can burn or blow. Those can go bad probably brought down by a bad power tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> They are not always gigantic ceramic wirewound resistors but ceramics are larger than most. Any type can burn or blow. Those can go bad probably brought down by a bad power tube.



This was going across my mind also since he stated his power tubes were old and one (or more) was bad.


----------



## JohnDanese

Yeah, I had this amp for about seven or eight years. Tubes are originals. I am
Hoping it was just a bad tube. The tubes look perfectly fine. Glass is clear, no black spots but I guess that doesn't matter. Maybe a bad tube can still LOOK good. I am hoping when the resistor comes I can just change the tubes, solder it in and hope it doesn't happen again.


----------



## JohnDanese

.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Yeah, I had this amp for about seven or eight years. Tubes are originals. I am
> Hoping it was just a bad tube. The tubes look perfectly fine. Glass is clear, no black spots but I guess that doesn't matter. Maybe a bad tube can still LOOK good. I am hoping when the resistor comes I can just change the tubes, solder it in and hope it doesn't happen again.


It could be a bad tube but not always. The DSL100 has a problem with C46 and can destroy R76. Some replace the bad parts and use a higher volt rating for C46 while I think others remove it.

Anyway check C46, 22pF 500V.

If you can test your tubes somehow, like a technician/serviceman with a tube tester, then do it. I do not know how many hours you have on the tubes in 8 years but it may be time for a new set.

Here are just a few threads on the same exact subject.
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/45860-dsl-screen-grid-resistor-fell-out.html#post683212
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/45751-help-please.html#post681538
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/40418-tube-bias-tool.html#post596321
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/39774-does-my-dsl-100-have-problem.html#post590976
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/28486-tsl100-hum-output.html#post386277


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> It could be a bad tube but not always. The DSL100 has a problem with C46 and can destroy R76. Some replace the bad parts and use a higher volt rating for C46 while I think others remove it.
> 
> Anyway check C46, 22pF 500V.
> 
> If you can test your tubes somehow, like a technician/serviceman with a tube tester, then do it. I do not know how many hours you have on the tubes in 8 years but it may be time for a new set.


 
mickey, Yeah, that c46 cap seems pretty consistant to cause the R76 problem. When I get he Screen Res, I will check that and test that. I am definitely putting new tubes in this before plugging it in! Thanks so much for your help!!


----------



## JohnDanese

That C46 Cap looks pretty clean, not burnt or brown.I guess I should still pull it anyway?? If it destroyed the Screen Resistor would it had browned out as well? hmmm.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hi all,
Well, I have been doing my best to read through this novel, but still only around page 100.
I am from Canada, and have only been playing since 06, but love rocken with my customized 401 and the LP. First I'd like to put a shout out to Marty, Ratt, Solar, and Josh, and the many many others that have made this thread what it is today. Thanx guys!
Like I said, im hardly into this novel, and I've already learnt soo much about the history and make up of the almight TUBE, and how it likes to work in our amps.

I have made some good upgrades to my 06-Marsh401. Ihave removed the BR1 and installed a new one keeping the rectifier high off the PCB and mounted a nice heat sink. I have also moved the Biasing pot and measuring pins to surface mount on the rear of the amp. Now i can bias or check bias anytime within moments. I still have an original Marshal amp head vent coming that im going to install to allow a bit of air movement in the cramped combo. (My current bias setting with stock Marshal tubes = .700)

I have been jawin with Marty already and he's helped me score some new PT from Germany, that should be here any day now. (NIB NOS Siemens E84L) Probably next week I'll be bugging Marty for a set of MM tubes to really make this amp sing. Anyway, just wanted to say Hiya to the gang and say thanks for the great thread that is overflowin with info.

Queston for ya all:
What 12" speaker would you recommend for this amp? I have to swap out that damn default Goldback speaker soon, as its really thin and sounds like crap compared to others I've heard. I'm looking for something that has at least 65watts or higher, 16ohm, has some good bottom end punch to make up for the open back design, and can deliver good cleans and great Marshal tone for all my 60-80 rock-n-roll playin.
I'm looking at items such as:
Celestion v30
WGS Veteran 30
Celestian Creamback
Eminance Wizard

(OK, back to readin)
Thanks again,
Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

The new 65 watt Creamback sounds similar to the Greenback, but it has more bottom end. If you don't like the Greenback, then I would not go with the Creamback.

I wouldn't recommend the Eminence Wizard as it will probably make your amp sound bright.

There are a lot of better Eminence choices that give good bottom end out of an open back combo. Here are a few that I would recommend.

Swamp Thang

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

Man 'O War

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

Red Fang (Alnico) This is what I have in my 401. They are expensive. The Red Fang is an 103dB speaker. It turns the 401 into basically an 80 watt amp. In a practice scenario, with drums and bass, I have my 401 on "4". It is loud for a 112 combo. This is a very nice British flavored speaker.

Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker

The Swamp Thang will give you a lot of bottom. The Man 'O War has an awesome crunch tone. The Red Fang has good bottom and more of the woody mids and highs.

I sold my other 401 and I had an Eminence Black Powder in it. Very good speaker. Lots of bottom and very punchy. Cuts through the mix. It is discontinued, but Parts Express still has them in stock. FYI-Just looked on their website and they do not list the Black Powder. Their current catalog lists them. You could call them to see if they still have any. This is an 8 ohm speaker. 800-338-0531.

Parts Express sells all the Celestion speakers as well. Very low prices and free shipping, although they may charge some shipping for Canada.

Can't wait until you get those premo E84L's in. I have my 401 biased at 800 and I am running RCA 6BQ5's in it from the early 60's.


----------



## mickeydg5

So that is who the German EL84s were for.

Hello Guts.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> That C46 Cap looks pretty clean, not burnt or brown.I guess I should still pull it anyway?? If it destroyed the Screen Resistor would it had browned out as well? hmmm.


The capacitor could have problems like a partial short and not be burnt. Do yourself a favor and upgrade it to 1000V or just remove it.

Maybe this should have been in its own thread.
Can anyone explain Marshall's intent or purpose, rational purpose that is, for this one lone component?

Remember what I mentioned about voltage rating. If the voltage rating on that resistor is low it makes it that much easier to heat up or damage. So a small problem can compound into a bigger problem.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickey-Don't worry about Off Topics. We've discussed a variety of subjects here. Being helpful is the number one priority. 

We are lucky to have you here.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Marty, Boy that Red Fang sure does look and sound nice, but its only 50watts....will running something with lower wattage not create a chance for buring it out? I mean that POS that in there now is a 100w speaker. From what I've read so far, the rule of thumb is to try have your speaker rating 1.5 - 2 times the amps listed output.
I'm just trying to build some safety into the amp as well, last thing i'd want is to burn out a $200 speaker.

Hiya mickeydg5. 

Not to highjack the thread, I am totally stoked on getting this sucka re-tubes with MM glass...should kick arss. 

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well speaker wattage has been a much discussed topic here. I have played my 401 on 8 and it never blew or acted like it was going to. At that point, it was really loud. I actually took it to a rehearsal room and jammed with three other guys. I was afraid the 401 would not be loud enough. As I said, I had to turn it up to 8 to compete with a Traynor and 412 cab, bass and drum set. You really don't get much louder past 8, just more distortion.

The thing is, while playing, the power is swinging high and low. Now an organ or a synth can create some long sustaining notes and this draws more power. A guitar is not doing this except in those instances where you let feedback sustain a note and this is generally a higher frequency that demands "less" power. Remember that our ears have a sweet spot and in this sweet spot, very little power is required for us to perceive loudness. Low end requires more power. That is why bass players have huge wattage amps and even so, their signal is still rising and falling. 

I can only speak from my experience with the Red Fang. I know two other guys here on the forum that switched over to Red Fangs in their 401's and they haven't had a problem.


----------



## mickeydg5

No one ever really gets into this because it is a Marshall forum where crank it to 11 or beyond is considered normal behavior. That practice is actually not rational or ideal.
Some of Marshall's old tube amplifier specifications give power ratings such as typical power at clipping. This is usually at their claimed 3 or 4 percent. Then Marshall went on to inform that at 10% distortion the amplifier puts out 1.5 times the power or greater.

What they do not note and what most consumers do not consider or understand is that "POWER AT CLIPPING" is a bad thing. Clipping at that level can cause damage to both amplifer power stage and speakers. So be careful.

In pro or hi-fi audio it is considered a good thing to have an amplfier sources of twice or more the rated power of the speaker system. It is done with the understanding that the job is to achieve the most power with the most headroom, never ever getting close to the "POWER AT CLIPPING" rating. Pushing an amplifier into clipping can damage just about any speaker. Therefore a 25 watt amplifier overdriven and clipping can blow a 200+ watt rated speaker. It is never a good idea.

Soooo
A 40 watt distorted amplifier with volume at 8 (3 o'clock) will have power output averaging between 16 to 28 watts. The 50 watt Red Fang has no problem with that.
Next
The same amplifier maxed out and overdriven, gain/volume(s) on 10, can output about 40 to 70 watts. That is exceeding the the Red Fang's ratings.
You may not hear a difference in volume between the two conditions pushing that amplifier with distortion.
Now
A Red Fang can handle 50 watt RMS which equates to 100 watts Musical or Program Power. 70 is below that, BUT rock music is by nature clipping/distortion which must be considered. So stick with RMS ratings for safety.

I hope this stuff makes more sense than confusion.

Add: Just wanted to note that JBL states to use an amplifier with 1/2 the IEC rating of the speakers for Rock Music. So that would be 80 watts for speakers on a 40 watt amplifier.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> The capacitor could have problems like a partial short and not be burnt. Do yourself a favor and upgrade it to 1000V or just remove it.
> 
> Maybe this should have been in its own thread.
> Can anyone explain Marshall's intent or purpose, rational purpose that is, for this one lone component?
> 
> Remember what I mentioned about voltage rating. If the voltage rating on that resistor is low it makes it that much easier to heat up or damage. So a small problem can compound into a bigger problem.


 
Yeah Ill get a 1000v capacitor. I guess cutting it off would be just fine but I think some of the previous people who posted about this issue mentioned a little noise without it. I guess I am just a wimp because it looks hard to get to as it is in a closed spot and has very tight solder points. hehe. It does make sense to do it now as the unit will be apart. I guess any 1000 capacitor from radio shack or wherever would work.

It does fit into this thread though as I tied that Screen Cap Blowout to a probable tube malfinction but on these Marshall JCM2000 DSL/TSL series heads it is an issue. Thank goodness you guys have seen this before and can steer someone like me in the right direction. I am sure I won't be the last one. This thread can indeed be a novel and it is a plethora of knowledge. Can't wait to get the :Tubes, Screen RES, 1000vCap. Hopefully have everything by Monday, Installed on Tuesday, Back here by Wednesday with results! You guys are awesome!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, if you are going to crank the amp max out (which I don't think a lot of people do with a 40 watt amp), you could run into problems with the Red Fang. I'm just saying that 3 of us are using the Red Fang in our 401's without any problems.

Also, when the amp is distorting, it is creating square waves. Square waves represents DC, both positive and negative. DC is what generates a lot of heat in a speaker coil. As Mickey stated, you can tear up a 200 watt speaker with a highly distorting 25 watt amp. I used to build pro automotive sound systems and I saw this a lot. (See following paragraphs for more details.) 

Now in a PA system, most amps are rated above the speakers. That is because trained people will turn the volume up to the loudest point that will still provide headroom for the system. An example of this would be a 1600 watt amp on an 800 watt (RMS) subwoofer. The amp can be providing a potential for 600 watts and have the extra power available for signal bursts. Keep in mind that the 1600 watt amp in theory just has a 3dB headroom if the speaker was to see the max 800 watts.

The other thing is, PA amps put out massive "clean" power. Guitar amps that are cranked put out over 10 percent distortion. Now a cranked tube amp is easier on the speakers since the output transformer "does not" pass DC. You are more prone to see speaker damage with a cranked solid state amp as it will pass DC to the voice coil(s).

There is a lot that needs to be understood about safe speaker operations. There still isn't a standard test among speaker manufacturer's for power. Everyone has their own test. Also, some manufacturer's will state program power for their power rating, while others will state the RMS rating. However, some of these ratings are done with either a 1KHz test tone, or a narrow pink noise test. What would be more suitable is a wide pink noise test of 80Hz to 5KHz "at max power."

And GUTS, remember that the 401 gets its distortion from the preamp circuit, so you can get a good crunchy tone at lower volume settings. If this is how you play, then the Red Fang should be fine. However, that is why I listed some high wattage models that can handle anything that the 401 can dish out.


----------



## johnfv

mickeydg5 said:


> ...Just wanted to note that JBL states...


A little anecdote on this topic: as a teen I played my blackface Showman (rated at 85 watts) into a single JBL K120 and of course I had to crank it loud (and boost the front end) to get it to crunch. One night at a gig I smoked the K120. I double checked just now, the K120 was rated for 200 watts "continuous program". I finished the gig with a borrowed Ampeg V4 cab and got the K120 reconed ASAP. That was 1979, still using it with that 2nd cone.
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/k_series.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

Guts, check out the Warehouse Guitar Speakers site. They make some really nice speakers that are at least as good as Celestions and cost a lot less than even the Eminence speakers. They have sound clips. I have heard their Green Beret (greenback), ET65 (G12-65), and Veteran 30 (Vintage 30) and they are all fantastic speakers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You must have really played loud and had that Showman distorting. Those K120 are pretty tough. 100 watts RMS and 200 watts program power. I loved the K series. Like the D, they had the alnico V magnets, but had better voice coils and cone/surround/spider assembly.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> You must have really played loud and had that Showman distorting. Those K120 are pretty tough. 100 watts RMS and 200 watts program power. I loved the K series. Like the D, they had the alnico V magnets, but had better voice coils and cone/surround/spider assembly.


Yes, it was a large room, drummer was loud, bass player had a full SVT cranked, other guitarist had a 1959 half stack - I was just trying keep up. I ran a boost in front and I think I had it pretty much wide open. Still I was amazed that the JBL died. The recones were good back then, this is still a great speaker. I'm with you, love the D and K series.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since all you guys are here, what do you think of the Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue? I have a guy who's wanting to trade me a practically brand-new one for my Strat Plus. It looks like clean examples of the amps are going for around $800 to $900 on Ebay, which is about the same as the Strat Plus' that I've seen. I think it's a fair trade but I don't know the amp really well. I like the idea of having a tube-rectified amp again, and it's also perfect for a grab-n-go combo. 

One hitch is, I'm running out of room and I'll probably have to sell an amp if I get this one. I don't like the idea of selling anything, but I guess I'm least-attached to the AB165 Bassman. I can't get rid of my Tweaker 15 or JMP1. I'll probably use the proceeds to pick up another MIM Strat. I've got a couple of partscasters but they just aren't doing anything for me.


----------



## BluesRocker

alan, i have been wanting a fender amp.. preferably a twin or deluxe lol 


hows it going guys? 

what do you guys know about mesa stiletto or electradynes ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You don't like to let anything go? Really? You Alan?

Hell you're riding a different horse each week. Way back when it was just you, a guitar and the DSL. Now it's a circle jerk of equipment and guitars. You just got the Strat Plus and now it is possibly on the chopping block.

You're funny.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Wholly...
Thanks all for the imput everyone. 
Sounds like a Red Fang would work for me just fine. I rarely get the amp above 5 or 6 anyway. BUT, for right now..i have someone local selling a used WGS Veteran 30 for a reasonable (low) price...think i might just snag that and toss it in for now, while I continue to spend all my money on tubes for right now. Then once we have the bucks...I'm thinking the RF is getting a pretty good push from you all ,and you all seem to know what the F*ck your talking bout...so thats good enough for me.

Heading out in a little while to pick up the Veteran30.

Anyone interested in buying a "Goldback" Celestion speaker....really really really nice highs.... with imaginary lows. (actually it plays clean fairly nice, in its own defense)

Thanks, again....

Guts


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> alan, i have been wanting a fender amp.. preferably a twin or deluxe lol
> 
> 
> hows it going guys?
> 
> what do you guys know about mesa stiletto or electradynes ?



I don't know any of those. I looked at a Lonestar but it was just out of my price range. There's a local guy trying to sell a single Rectifier V.2 50w head for $800. I do know that whether you like the tone or not, they make solid amps. 

The DRRI has one hell of a reputation but I'm afraid it would just be covering ground that the Tweaker already does pretty well. It's tempting, though.


----------



## BluesRocker

well i want to start running a two amp setup and i want something similar but different to my slp..i could us the tweaker but im afraid in soee situations it will be too small to keep up..plus i use it as the practice amp


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> You don't like to let anything go? Really? You Alan?
> 
> Hell you're riding a different horse each week. Way back when it was just you, a guitar and the DSL. Now it's a circle jerk of equipment and guitars. You just got the Strat Plus and now it is possibly on the chopping block.
> 
> You're funny.



Well, this last time was to raise some cash. I moved some expensive stuff because we needed the money more than I needed pedigreed guitars. I also kinda realized that a lot of the stuff I was collecting was more status symbol than useful gear. Now I'm just trying to put together a good, solid rig that I can enjoy playing and not feel guilty owning. The PRS SE One is a good step in that direction, but I need the Strat cleans because the SE One is a balls-out rock and roll guitar. It's not very versatile but it works if you're a player who knows how to work the volume control. P-90's aren't very clean pickups - they always have an edge to them. 

The Strat Plus is a nice guitar but there are things I don't like about it. I don't care for the roller nut, and I think the tone of a vintage 6-screw bridge with a brass block is closer to what I want out of a Strat. I don't care if it's a USA or MIM model - there's not much difference between the two except for the quality of pickups.


----------



## RiverRatt

Gutsanglory said:


> Wholly...
> Thanks all for the imput everyone.
> Sounds like a Red Fang would work for me just fine. I rarely get the amp above 5 or 6 anyway. BUT, for right now..i have someone local selling a used WGS Veteran 30 for a reasonable (low) price...think i might just snag that and toss it in for now, while I continue to spend all my money on tubes for right now. Then once we have the bucks...I'm thinking the RF is getting a pretty good push from you all ,and you all seem to know what the F*ck your talking bout...so thats good enough for me.
> 
> Heading out in a little while to pick up the Veteran30.
> 
> Anyone interested in buying a "Goldback" Celestion speaker....really really really nice highs.... with imaginary lows. (actually it plays clean fairly nice, in its own defense)
> 
> Thanks, again....
> 
> Guts



You'll like the Veteran 30. I'm using one with my Egnater Tweaker and it's a great speaker. I like it better than the Celestion Vintage 30. If the one you're picking up is used and broken-in, so much the better.

I want to try one of the WGS G12T-75 clones. The Celestion G12T-75 is one of my favorite speakers and the WGS is supposed to be even better.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> well i want to start running a two amp setup and i want something similar but different to my slp..i could us the tweaker but im afraid in soee situations it will be too small to keep up..plus i use it as the practice amp



Want to trade a Les Paul for a Deluxe RI?


----------



## BluesRocker

lol i dont think i can do that one alan


----------



## Gutsanglory

RiverRatt said:


> You'll like the Veteran 30. I'm using one with my Egnater Tweaker and it's a great speaker. I like it better than the Celestion Vintage 30. If the one you're picking up is used and broken-in, so much the better.



Thanks Rat, yeah he tells me its under 50 hours of use and purchased within the last year. He had 4 of them to sell as he is rebuilding a 4x12.

Hopefully its a good deal and will keep me grinnin while I work on the glass upgrades.

Guts


----------



## Gutsanglory

So im guessing the Tracking function of Ebay sucks crap. I have a couple orders comming in and both have a tracking number listed, but when you check the tracking updates...they have nothing. I have checked with the sellers, and they show me that the items have shipped and have actually both just as of today hit Canadian customs. 

Strange, but at least I know my Tubes are almost here!!! 

Guts


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...The Celestion G12T-75 is one of my favorite speakers and the WGS is supposed to be even better.


I have 2 from the '80s in a box, only played by an old lady on Sunday


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I have 2 from the '80s in a box, only played by an old lady on Sunday



Would I be that old lady? 

I still have to find some way to get that cab away from you. What would tempt you now that I'm out of SG's?


----------



## BluesRocker

was that supposed to be aimed at me alan?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes! LOL! Sorry... I was busy watching Barack Obama doing "I'm Sexy and I Know It" on Youtube. I need to quit listening to my kids and play attention I guess.


----------



## BluesRocker

oh my


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan what do you have that i might take interest in?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gutsanglory said:


> Thanks Rat, yeah he tells me its under 50 hours of use and purchased within the last year. He had 4 of them to sell as he is rebuilding a 4x12.
> 
> Hopefully its a good deal and will keep me grinnin while I work on the glass upgrades.
> 
> Guts



That Vet 30 will sound better than the Gold.


----------



## solarburn

Joe Bonamassa's playing an acoustic concert at the Vienna Opera House on TV right now. My mom called just now and gave me the heads up cause she saw it the other day and really thought how cool it was.

Channel 12 KBTC here in Washington.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know man. I can't deny that Joe B is a player but I've just not gotten into it.


----------



## BluesRocker

Dang. i want to see him again really bad. He puts on an awesome show. his acoustic segments are nothing short of spectacular..


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Dang. i want to see him again really bad. He puts on an awesome show. his acoustic segments are nothing short of spectacular..



My mom was marveling at all the acoustic guitars he had circled around him to play with. He's a very cool dude and plays real good.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know man. I can't deny that Joe B is a player but I've just not gotten into it.



Well I don't listen to him regularly but I do like footage of him playing...and I love the blues.


----------



## BluesRocker

Alan, you just have to witness it live is all i can say.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Whooot!
Just got back with the new speaker. So like I said, its a used WGS Veteran 30, and it looks like its in absolutly prestine condition. It ohmed out at 12.6 which is good, and nice and quiet on the speaker movement. But the best part....
This dude runs his own recording studio, and has a tone of hardware, that I guess he cycles through the studio quite often. We started yackin about Eminence speakers and he mentioned that he's starting to see a rise in use with that brand. He said we could stay in touch and if he has any further deals on equiptment he'd let me know. He really had good things to say about the Red Fang speaker as well. Currently none in use at the studio though. (too bad)

Awesome! 

Now...where are my tuuuubes....Come on delivery dude.

So anyway, I'll get this new Vet30 installed tomorrow morning.

Guts


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> It could be a bad tube but not always. The DSL100 has a problem with C46 and can destroy R76. Some replace the bad parts and use a higher volt rating for C46 while I think others remove it.
> 
> Anyway check C46, 22pF 500V.


 
Hey will this Capacitor work? It is a .022uf 1000 v. In the descrition is says capacity pf or uf.

90322 - CAP-CER DISC .022UF 1KV Ceramic Capacitor : Ceramic Capacitors | RadioShack.com


Being as I know nothing about this stuff, don't want to put in the wrong thing and make the problem worse.

Thanks!


----------



## solarburn

Gutsanglory said:


> Whooot!
> Just got back with the new speaker. So like I said, its a used WGS Veteran 30, and it looks like its in absolutly prestine condition. It ohmed out at 12.6 which is good, and nice and quiet on the speaker movement. But the best part....
> This dude runs his own recording studio, and has a tone of hardware, that I guess he cycles through the studio quite often. We started yackin about Eminence speakers and he mentioned that he's starting to see a rise in use with that brand. He said we could stay in touch and if he has any further deals on equiptment he'd let me know. He really had good things to say about the Red Fang speaker as well. Currently none in use at the studio though. (too bad)
> 
> Awesome!
> 
> So anyway, I'll get this new Vet30 installed tomorrow morning.
> 
> 
> 
> Guts



I have a couple Veteran30's. good speakers. Smoother than a V30 is the quickest way I'd describe them. Congrats!


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Yeah Ill get a 1000v capacitor. I guess cutting it off would be just fine but I think some of the previous people who posted about this issue mentioned a little noise without it. I guess I am just a wimp because it looks hard to get to as it is in a closed spot and has very tight solder points. hehe. It does make sense to do it now as the unit will be apart. I guess any 1000 capacitor from radio shack or wherever would work.


Yes basically any 1000V+ capacitor will work.
It is best to have it. I am thinking Marshall installed it for a reason, maybe for controll of noise and parasitic oscillation.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Hey will this Capacitor work? It is a .022uf 1000 v. In the descrition is says capacity pf or uf.
> 
> 90322 - CAP-CER DISC .022UF 1KV Ceramic Capacitor : Ceramic Capacitors | RadioShack.com
> 
> 
> Being as I know nothing about this stuff, don't want to put in the wrong thing and make the problem worse.
> 
> Thanks!


A value of .022uF is way too large.
It has to be pF like 22pF, but is the same as .022nF or .000022uF.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> A value of .022uF is way too large.
> It has to be pF like 22pF, but is the same as .022nF or .000022uF.


Glad I asked! In that Radio Shack Link above, under the descriptio, the capacity says pf or uf. I was thinking 1000v and the cap looks the same size and says uf or pf. Radio Shack doesn't have the one I need then. Good thing I asked!!

So now I found this one, is it right Mickey5?

561R10TCCQ22 - VISHAY SPRAGUE - CAPACITOR CERAMIC 22PF 1000V, | Newark

Here are the Specs: CAPACITOR CERAMIC 22PF 1000V, C0G, 5%, RAD; Capacitance:22pF; Capacitance Tolerance:± 5%; Dielectric Characteristic:C0G / NP0; Voltage Rating:1000V; Capacitor Case Styleisc; Capacitor Terminals:Radial Leaded; Lead Spacing:6.4mm ;RoHS Compliant: Yes 

Thanks so much!!


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Glad I asked! In that Radio Shack Link above, under the descriptio, the capacity says pf or uf. I was thinking 1000v and the cap looks the same size and says uf or pf. Radio Shack doesn't have the one I need then. Good thing I asked!!
> 
> So now I found this one, is it right Mickey5?
> 
> 561R10TCCQ22 - VISHAY SPRAGUE - CAPACITOR CERAMIC 22PF 1000V, | Newark
> 
> Here are the Specs: CAPACITOR CERAMIC 22PF 1000V, C0G, 5%, RAD; Capacitance:22pF; Capacitance Tolerance:± 5%; Dielectric Characteristic:C0G / NP0; Voltage Rating:1000V; Capacitor Case Styleisc; Capacitor Terminals:Radial Leaded; Lead Spacing:6.4mm ;RoHS Compliant: Yes
> 
> Thanks so much!!


That is a nice capacitor.
Radioshack also had this.
NTE 90022 - Cap-Ceramic Disc 22PF 1KV Ceramic Capacitor : Ceramic Capacitors | RadioShack.com
I do not know what they might keep stock in the store for something that size but anything from 15pF to 33pF may be just as fine.


----------



## BluesRocker

hey alan, there is a guy in the classifieds section that has a JVM210 and 1960 wanting to trade for a fender deluxe reissue.. be a good chance to make some money


----------



## mickeydg5

Gutsanglory said:


> So im guessing the Tracking function of Ebay sucks crap. I have a couple orders comming in and both have a tracking number listed, but when you check the tracking updates...they have nothing. I have checked with the sellers, and they show me that the items have shipped and have actually both just as of today hit Canadian customs.
> 
> Strange, but at least I know my Tubes are almost here!!!
> 
> Guts


If it was sent through USPS that is a problem. They hardly ever bother with updating or even entering tracking information, yet the service cost.


----------



## JohnDanese

[QUOTE
Radioshack also had this.
[/QUOTE]

I ordered the Radio Shack one. Thanks so much Mick, Marty, Rat and everyone. This forum is so great.


----------



## RiverRatt

BluesRocker said:


> Alan what do you have that i might take interest in?



Probably not much right now, but I'm sure that will change soon.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> [QUOTE
> Radioshack also had this.


 
I ordered the Radio Shack one. Thanks so much Mick, Marty, Rat and everyone. This forum is so great.[/QUOTE]
Had what?

NTE is good stuff.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Oh ya,

So I swapped in the veteran 30 and set that goldback in the wings. OMFG!! what a difference. Both the OD1-2 have come alive!  This speaker has a great British crunch that I was missing alltogether with that crappy Celestion. And some pretty serious Heavy metal tones can be had on the OD2 if wanted. The OD1 channel is where i seem to spend my time, a very wide assortment of tones are now available with that channel, and I like them all. I think I did loose a small amount of the clean tone/channel, but with some adjustments, I can still dial in a nice clean tone, that easily moves to a cool crunch if guitar volume or gain is added.

All I can say is that if anyone has a 401 out there, Def change out that crappy speaker ASAP, whole new box with even just this speaker upgrade. I can only imagine what a Red Fang sound like in there. 

Ok...so Cab mods done, bias mods done, upgraded speaker, now....where are those tubes damnit!! I'm headed back down to play more, just had to come up and report the findings of this upgrade.

Guts


----------



## johnfv

Gutsanglory said:


> ...I swapped in the veteran 30...


Glad you like the Vet 30. I wouldn't go so far as to call a Celestion crappy but you will find many WGS fans here. Great products at a reasonable price...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that GOLD is lame. I don't know too many 401 guys that run them. I would say that at least 85 percent of the 401's I've seen had a different speaker in place.

I ended up selling two GOLD's on EBAY and I didn't get very much for them. Of course, I couldn't stand the Celestion Vintage and the Heritage that were in my TSL122. The two Man 'O Wars were definitely the tone I wanted. And the MOW's are Eminence's copy of a G12-75. I can't stand a G12-75. I use them because they really are so superior in tone to the G12-75's that I wouldn't call it a clone. I sold the Vintage and Heritage on EBAY and they went for a few dollars. That Heritage has a really flimsy cone. I didn't like that in a 100 watt amp.

Well guts, it takes a while to get an out of country shipment. I can't wait to hear those new in box Siemens E84L's. For those that don't know, the 84L's are a lot beefier than a regular EL84. Good thing guts has the later 401 with the bigger tube holes in the chassis, because while researching these tubes for him I found out they were 2mm bigger in width "after" he had already ordered them. Whew! That could have been a disaster since he paid big bucks for these NIB tubes.

I got my first 401 in 1999. I went to Guitar Center because I was good friends with the day manager. I actually went down thinking I was going to get a Fender, because I had so much luck with the twin Bassman rig that I had run for nine years. However, after playing several combos the 401 was what appealed to me. When you get one and tweak it with NOS tubes and a good speaker, they are hard to beat for a grab and go rig.


----------



## MM54

I'd still like to get ahold of a Man 'O War for my little cab, but the postal service still hasn't gotten back to me on the damage claim for the one they thrashed and I can in no way afford to buy ANOTHER one. This late 60's Rola organ speaker works, but it's not great.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Man 'O War kicks ass.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Got home a bit early today....and what do I find?????

My Power Tubes are here Siemens quad E84L !

IN THEY GO!!!


----------



## Gutsanglory

Little Tube porn and some misc pics.
You can see the bias pot and test port relocation now on the rear panel in this first pic. 
























My other amp and guitar:





Set the Bias to .700 for now...everything is warmin up.......:Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Plenty of room for those 84L's. I like how you did the new bias test points. That's going to be one fine 401. After you play it a while, try biasing to 800 and see if it sounds better.

When I got to where I could afford any amp I wanted, I was a Peavey user. I did business with Driver Music in Oklahoma City. They were a huge Peavey dealer. My first amp was an original MACE combo with two massive Black Widow speakers. That was one heavy, loud SOB. Six months later, the Renown came out along with a new line of solid state amps and I bought a Renown. It was the best sounding SS amp I had ever used. It had a really good crunch tone, not fizzy like a lot of SS amps. I switched to Marshall's in 1984.

I'm not familiar with your Peavey amp. Before I moved from the KC area, I sold a MACE head and a Deuce combo. I got a pretty good price for both of them. I just looked on EBAY and some nut has a Deuce listed for $475, Buy It Now. Ridiculous. Another guy has one for $220 and that is a good price. I sold mine for $200. It was an old Deuce with the Eminence speakers, it didn't have the Scorpions.


----------



## mickeydg5

Guts

Wow, nice looking guitar (LP).

The bias probe terminals and adjust look cool.
Did you separate the sides for .7A on each side/pair of tubes?


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hiya,
You dont have to separate the tubes..for biasing...this model uses a single bias for all 4 power tubes.

Marty,,,Yeah..we were all worried about tube diameters..these are acutally thinner than the JJ relabled Marshalls that came stock.

I've been playing for about half hour now...how do i discribe it....

NIIIICE!!
No more buzz when volume is turned up...used to get a hum/buzz when idle, and off standby, nice and quiet now. The notes just seem to jump a whole lot now...and I can ...FEEL...the guitar notes better...if that makes sense. That , and the overall sound is way cleaner and sounds richer.

Overall...they kick the JJ's in a big way.

NOW....Preamp....Marty..I should have $$ by Friday..and we can fix that link in the chain next.

Guts


----------



## mickeydg5

Gutsanglory said:


> Hiya,
> You dont have to separate the tubes..for biasing...this model uses a single bias for all 4 power tubes.
> Guts


 
Ah I remembered Marshall's instruction for 1.4 and 1.375 for the DSL401. So I thought, hmm, .7 is half of 1.4.

But I see by looking around everyone is dropping bias on the 401 to around .8 or so for the four tubes.  Big difference though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah remember that the 401 uses a precision 10 ohm resistor in the bias circuit. This is why the bias reads ten times higher than it really is. 800mV is actually 80mV.

My 1999 model was a flame thrower and used the high bias, but it came with all Ei tubes and they could take it. That was a really good sounding amp BTW.

Even the revised 401's after 2003 sound better biased hotter than what Marshall states. As I said, I run mine at 800.


----------



## Gutsanglory

yeah...the earlier models had the high bias numbers, but were burnin up due to heat. So somewere along the lines they dropped that to something pretty low .550 or something...but with GOOD TUBES, I'm being told we can raise that up to 7-900. Marty had the same year as mine and ran 800 without issues.

Ok..Takin a break, my fingers are getting sore. The tubes seem to be nice, and I cant wait till I get the MM glass setup. I'm puttin my faith in Marty, and I'm sure he'll set me up with some nice tubes.

I am thinking a BP for V2 for sure. I think were looking at Tele for V1, and some nice solid Sylvania's for 3 and 4. From what I've read so far that mix should offer me great tones. I have to admit, I tried to read the thread, but only made it to about page 125 so far....its a bloody novel. 

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

I made the recommendation for the Telefunken because you wanted good cleans. The funny thing is, the Telefunken is at home in a Fender for chicken pickin" and also in high gain amps for metal.


----------



## MM54

Telefunkens are niiiice


----------



## solarburn

Sounds like a real good line up. One I've used.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Do you remember that tube review I posted a long time ago where the author compared different 12AX7's to different women...blondes, brunettes and redheads?

I tried to find it on my search engines, but all that came up was PORN. Go figure.


----------



## solarburn

Lol!


----------



## JohnDanese

So, I got all the New Tubes today but before I can put 'em in I gotta perform the Surgery (replacing the 5 Watt Screen Resistor $ The 500V Cap suspected of blowing the Resistor). Well Marshall sent me the Resistor and I am still waiting for the Cap. I prepared the patient for surgery and man, I may not have known what I was in for! Hopefully I won't do anything too stupid like fry my board. Knwoing the soldering needs to be on the back of the board I labled all those wire connections and opened het up all the way. For you guys this is probably nothing, for me.....AHHHGGGGHH! Anyway here are some pictures.


----------



## JohnDanese

....and....


----------



## JohnDanese

One More....Wish me luck!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hang in there. What wattage is your soldering iron? I would be using no more than a 30 watt.


----------



## JohnDanese

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hang in there. What wattage is your soldering iron? I would be using no more than a 30 watt.



Ill check it. If its more ill get a new one! Thanks!! Any advice is greatly appreciated!!


----------



## JohnDanese

Hey, you guys think I should have labeled all those cables to the proper com ports before pulling that board? Haha! Just kiddin' ! I did!


----------



## JohnDanese

Soldering Iron is 25 Watts.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Hey, you guys think I should have labeled all those cables to the proper com ports before pulling that board? Haha! Just kiddin' ! I did!


I do not have that problem. I have pornographic memory.


----------



## JohnDanese

Haha!


----------



## Gutsanglory

Marty, you have mail.
Man I thought i had good tough fingertips, but after about 3 hours straight yesterday, my fingers are sore....hahah. It's nice having an amp you WANT to go play.
Now I'm totally stoked...I know when I get my TonePack from Marty, this amp is going to come alive! 
"It's Alive!!!" - YouTube

I have one more Mod that I was going to do. Its a top mounted amp vent, but with the other mods I've already done, heat really has not been much of a problem anymore. I mean the 401 still gets pretty warm on the top, but not hot. I think I may hold off on the vent for a bit.
I've read that tubes actually like to work in a fairly warm environment. Can someone elaborate on the effects of ambient tempatures and how they effect the tubes? 

Rock on!

Guts


----------



## JohnDanese

Opinions? So the previous articles concerning the capacitor says either PULL the cap or replace it with a 1kv cap. I ordered it Sunday ( the cap) .It still didn't ship and will probably be five days from the time it ships.

I am anxious to solder the resistor , maybe just pull the cap, put in a new fuse ( original symptom) install my new tube set/ bias and test. 

It seems the cap is possible useless but then again WHY did Marshall put it there? 

If it were you- just so it or wait like a week? 

I also have a fear I MAY have fried the board. I felt a slight shock when my thumb was over components on the left side. Wouldn't know how to test so I don't wanna wait a week. 

I have pulled so many computer boards in the past and never did something that amateur! 

Ok:
Do It Tonight: Pull Cap?

Wait a week: Replace Cap?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gutsanglory said:


> Marty, you have mail.
> 
> Guts



Yeah I got around quick for you today. I have already sent your tubes and I sent you a detailed email regarding your questions.

You are getting an exceptional set of tubes.


----------



## Gutsanglory

AWESOME!!!

Thanks Marty.


----------



## JohnDanese

JohnDanese said:


> Opinions? So the previous articles concerning the capacitor says either PULL the cap or replace it with a 1kv cap. I ordered it Sunday ( the cap) .It still didn't ship and will probably be five days from the time it ships.
> 
> I am anxious to solder the resistor , maybe just pull the cap, put in a new fuse ( original symptom) install my new tube set/ bias and test.
> 
> It seems the cap is possible useless but then again WHY did Marshall put it there?
> 
> If it were you- just so it or wait like a week?
> 
> I also have a fear I MAY have fried the board. I felt a slight shock when my thumb was over components on the left side. Wouldn't know how to test so I don't wanna wait a week.
> 
> I have pulled so many computer boards in the past and never did something that amateur!
> 
> Ok:
> Do It Tonight: Pull Cap?
> 
> Wait a week: Replace Cap?


 
Roller Coaster. The part just shipped. I live in PA. Coming from Jersey FedEx Ground. It'll be here tomorrow most likely so, Ill do it all tomorrow night and report the POSITIVE result when finished!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Clint (Guts) just found out my real name is Marion. I think most of you old timers already knew this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now the wait for that premo glass to arrive. 

The anticipation of vintage glass in a Marshall amp.

Hope they will be there by next Tuesday.


----------



## solarburn

Mmmm...vintage ass...I mean glass! I'd rather have V-glass cause current production ass looks primo too me.

I remember roll'n that first Martimus pack. It was good...very good. My DSL said ahhhhhh...now I know you really love me Joe. We became much more intimate at that point.

You guys too?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stop it JOE. You're making me steamy. All that talk about "rolling." Behave!

Yeah Clint got a real special set. The preamp section of that 401 won't know what hit it.

Maybe he will submit some photos of the new line up.


----------



## Gutsanglory

Oh my god,,,,your guys are killing me.

Its gonna be a very long 8-9 days


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hey, not sure if ya all missed it, but I asked a question about temps and tubes.
Is it ok for temps to climb a bit in the tube amp, as long as it dont start burning things up. Or is that harsh on the tubes?

I Know for a fact that my amp dont sound as good cold as it does after about 10 min of playing.

What about the other end...has anyone had to play a tube amp in the cold, whats that like for the tubes? I'm guessing its shitty for the actual speakers too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tick...tick...tick...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well tubes do have a + and - temp range as do most electrical products. I'd say you would be alright between 40F and 110F. I played many outdoor summer gigs in Phoenix when the temp was 110 to 112F.

And yes, tubes do warm up more than when first turned on. That is why I recommend that an amp be left on for 30 minutes before biasing.

Your 401 shouldn't get as hot as the old version. I think I remember seeing your post about putting a vent on the top. That wouldn't be a bad idea. I wish my TSL122 had a top vent.


----------



## MM54

Tubes by their nature work best when hot. Unless you're having overheating issues (which in a properly designed circuit and housing are an indicator that something is wrong) there is no reason to put additional vents on an amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yup. Before you start adding vents, get a computer power supply fan and mount it so that it blows across the tubes. That's a lot easier than cutting new vents and it will work better too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Picky, picky, picky.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You guys too?



Umm, no. When I'm rolling tubes or dialing in my guitar amp, I try to leave my organ out of it.


----------



## JohnDanese

Bagging the Cap. Can't clean the old solder out and don't wanna mess up the board. It's all back together now. Putting in the tubes. Wish me luck!


----------



## JohnDanese

Not a good sign. Went to install my new tubes and the Tung-Sol 12AX7 was not in the box!! Oh man, Marty I will only order from you in the future. I didn't realize you were a dealer in fine glass until I ordered already. Quite an oversight on the dealers part I would say. So I will test this tonight with my old v1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Doug sent you an empty box???


----------



## MartyStrat54

John-I only deal in NOS/Vintage tubes. I do get some current production from time to time, but that's not my thing.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Bagging the Cap. Can't clean the old solder out and don't wanna mess up the board. It's all back together now. Putting in the tubes. Wish me luck!


Why clean off the old solder?
Just remove the old cap. Make sure your soldering iron is nice and wet (having a little solder on the tip), heat up the existing solder and slide the capacitor leg in the hole. Then do the other side. With an ohm measurement test from the capacitor leg to a point down the trace at another component. If you read at about 0 ohms, voila your done.


----------



## solarburn

JohnDanese said:


> Not a good sign. Went to install my new tubes and the Tung-Sol 12AX7 was not in the box!! Oh man, Marty I will only order from you in the future. I didn't realize you were a dealer in fine glass until I ordered already. Quite an oversight on the dealers part I would say. So I will test this tonight with my old v1.



Did I read that right? The tube wasn't sent to you or you misplaced it?

If not included & this is from Doug's tubes tell him.


----------



## JohnDanese

Yeah, You guys can look. Box looks empty to me! I don't see it. Man! I am sure it was just one of those things and he'll simply send me one tomorrow when he gets the email. 

That is the least of my problems for sure.!

So I soldered on the Screen Resistor. Put it all together. Went down and hooked her up. Tube # 8 does not heat up. Whatever the original problem, it still remains. I wonder if the blow out took the socket with it or the socket took the Screen Res with it? I tried pulling the new KT77 from #8 and putting in one of the Marshall EL34's. Wont heat up. Man am I bummed. I guess I gotta have the amp sent to someone. It ALWAYS seems that when an amp goes in to a shop around here, it is for MONTHS! I was sure it was going to work. 

Thanks for the guidance though. I am sure someone can fix it. Apparently it won't be me.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> So I soldered on the Screen Resistor. Put it all together. Went down and hooked her up. Tube # 8 does not heat up. Whatever the original problem, it still remains. I wonder if the blow out took the socket with it or the socket took the Screen Res with it? I tried pulling the new KT77 from #8 and putting in one of the Marshall EL34's. Wont heat up. Man am I bummed. I guess I gotta have the amp sent to someone. It ALWAYS seems that when an amp goes in to a shop around here, it is for MONTHS! I was sure it was going to work.
> 
> Thanks for the guidance though. I am sure someone can fix it. Apparently it won't be me.


 
Dude slow down. 
Did you check the filament fuses with an ohm measurement (6.3 amp), especially F4?
Make sure connectors are all in the right places too and that R9 1 ohm is good.
Not heating up seems to be a filament/fuse problem though.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> Dude slow down.
> Did you check the filament fuses with an ohm measurement (6.3 amp), especially F4?
> Make sure connectors are all in the right places too and that R9 1 ohm is good.
> Not heating up seems to be a filament/fuse problem though.


 

LOL! Mickey, I didn't and would never have thought to! LOL! I am sure a qualified tech ( or somebody who KINDA knew what they are doing) would take this baby and have her up and running in a jiffy. In reality, just the fact that I even took it apart and soldered something on the board and put it back together again, was way above my knowledge grade. hehe! 

I will be best taking it to someone who knows what they are doing. I just hate to be without it. If I knew a little about electrical circuits and how to use the meter I bought for this project then I would probably roll on and troubleshoot. 

The point where I noticed the #8 was not "lighting up", I was attempting to set up the Bias. I put my meter on Volts, ( I am clueless) Put the black lead on the middle prong of the bias pins (with insulated Alligator clip) and tried to read the "millivolt" values by using the red lead to the pins on each side. 

The meter has two "modes" I guess for volts one being ~ and the other - ? Anyway the numbers just kept changing and never seemed to settle on one spot. The amp was on Standby and plugged into the cab @ 16 ohms ( as usual) for 5 minutes before the attempt. I tried adjusting the Pots knowing they work against each other and my goal was to get a reading of 85mv a side. Well I had no idea what I was reading. The numbers were all over the place. Then after a bit I noticed number 8 was still cold and not lighting.

In reading your post though, It seems that I could at least try those readings. There are filliment fuses througout that board that didn't look blown in any way. You suggest using the meter, set it to ohms, Probe on each side and the reading disply should be 6.3? See how clueless I am? But I will look at that, if I can figure out what I should be looking at.

Lets see, I am just outside Philly, how long a ride to your house? LOL.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well find fuse F4. You cannot always tell a bad fuse by looking at it.
Pull it out if possible. Read the resistance across the fuse (ohms). It should be 1 ohm or less hopefully, closer to zero is better. Higher resistance or open (OL) is bad.

The "~" on the meter is AC operations and the "---" or single "-" is DC operations.
If using the bias pins you will be reading DC. Use DCV for high voltges like plate volts. Use DCmV for reading lower millivolts like bias at the pins.

If this stuff is overwhelming and you feel it best left to a techician, then do so.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> Well find fuse F4. You cannot always tell a bad fuse by looking at it.
> Pull it out if possible. Read the resistance across the fuse (ohms). It should be 1 ohm or less hopefully, closer to zero is better. Higher resistance or open (OL) is bad.
> 
> The "~" on the meter is AC operations and the "---" or single "-" is DC operations.
> If using the bias pins you will be reading DC. Use DCV for high voltges like plate volts. Use DCmV for reading lower millivolts like bias at the pins.
> 
> If this stuff is overwhelming and you feel it best left to a techician, then do so.


 
If it comes down to a fuse then I'd definitely rather do it myself after soldering on the Resistor. 

So, I should take that f4 Fuse out, set meter to ohms and put a probe on each side of the fuse. If the fuse is good it should be less than 1 ohm. If it is higher than 1 ohm it is a bad fuse right? I have a few of those 1 amp fuses. a few slo-blow and a few regular regular ones. I guess those are not the slo-blow type like the Fuse on the back but regular ones?

I guess a bad fuse in this case would be "good" as that would be why I have no power to my plate on # 8 right?

Dude, seriously, thanks for the advice. I will re-tear her open tomorrow and see what is what. hmmm I did label every connector and definitely checked each and every one. YET...Hmmm I wonder if I connected the Bias Pin board back to the connector when I put the plate cover back on? For some reason I dont remember doing that. I probably did but that would be possible.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> If it comes down to a fuse then I'd definitely rather do it myself after soldering on the Resistor.
> 
> So, I should take that f4 Fuse out, set meter to ohms and put a probe on each side of the fuse. If the fuse is good it should be less than 1 ohm. If it is higher than 1 ohm it is a bad fuse right? I have a few of those 1 amp fuses. a few slo-blow and a few regular regular ones. I guess those are not the slo-blow type like the Fuse on the back but regular ones?
> 
> I guess a bad fuse in this case would be "good" as that would be why I have no power to my plate on # 8 right?


The F4 fuse is a slow blow (Timed) fuse at *6.3 amps* rating. Under 1 ohm resistance is fine, 1 to several ohms is suspect and open is definitely bad.

Be careful with power tube pin numbers. Pin #8 is the cathode which goes towards ground at or near zero DC volts. Pin #3 is the plate, high DC voltage.


----------



## Lowlife

JohnDanese said:


> The meter has two "modes" I guess for volts one being ~ and the other - ? Anyway the numbers just kept changing and never seemed to settle on one spot. The amp was on Standby and plugged into the cab @ 16 ohms ( as usual) for 5 minutes before the attempt. I tried adjusting the Pots knowing they work against each other and my goal was to get a reading of 85mv a side. Well I had no idea what I was reading. The numbers were all over the place. Then after a bit I noticed number 8 was still cold and not lighting.



Just a thought, you are aware that for biasing purposes the amp should not be in standby mode, right?


----------



## JohnDanese

Lowlife said:


> Just a thought, you are aware that for biasing purposes the amp should not be in standby mode, right?



No, I didn't know that. I guess standby just to heat it up then take it off Standby? Thanks !


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah Lowlife got you on that one. I forgot to question it.

Add: 
But you said V8 did not heat up. So that told me you were powered up and out of STANDBY mode and other tubes were heating.
All tubes should be in and operating when checking and adjusting bias on the power tubes.

(out of STANBY, in STANDBY, makes no difference for heating. Sorry, I must have been tired.)

In STANDBY mode only the heaters (filaments) have power which heats the tube.
When out of STANDBY mode all power is connected to the amplfiier. This is the condition required for biasing. So the amplifier is powered up with gain and volume knobs set to zero, then check and adust biasing.


----------



## JohnDanese

Yet, the #8 valve would still heat up in SB mode though. It was as cold as when it was put in.


----------



## RiverRatt

Swap the power tubes around and see if the problem follows the tube or stays in that socket.


----------



## JohnDanese

Hey RR, I did try pulling the new tube and replaced it with one of my EL34's that used to be in socket 6. Filiment never heated. Hopefully it is an internal fuse problem. Would make sense as the Resistor practically exploded that maybe a fuse blew?? Wishful thinking but sometimes things DO work out??


----------



## JohnDanese

Doug's (Tubes) cool and he already sent the "missing" tube as soon as he got my email. He pulls and tests them before ship and hey, thses things are tiny little bottles of NO air so the box has all the weight. I can see that happining from time to time. Of course that would be MY luck hehe! anyway will try to tackle the problem tonight and the cap came today so maybe ill add that onto the bord too while apart.


----------



## solarburn

JohnDanese said:


> Doug's (Tubes) cool and he already sent the "missing" tube as soon as he got my email. He pulls and tests them before ship and hey, thses things are tiny little bottles of NO air so the box has all the weight. I can see that happining from time to time. Of course that would be MY luck hehe! anyway will try to tackle the problem tonight and the cap came today so maybe ill add that onto the bord too while apart.



I buy from Doug's too. I knew he'd take care of it. He's handled a cheesey JJ that died on me real quick and replaced it without issue. Keeps me coming back for them CP tubes.


----------



## JohnDanese

OK: I AM an idiot but I am not sure if this would in any way stop my # 8 from heating up. As I said in an earlier post...I dont recall plugging in the bias board connector.....Obviously first thing I looked at today and DUH! Not connected. ( couldn't possibly be that easy can it?) I doubt it "completes" the circuit for the #8 Tube but a fool can only dream and hope....AND I AM A FOOL!!


----------



## JohnDanese

Ohwww Man...Yeah! Mickey, You may save hit the fuse on the head.....O.F> reading and every other fuse is good! Heading to the shack now. Cya's in an hour with good news I am sure!


----------



## JohnDanese

And the Marshall forum guys said " let there be light in that tube" and so it was!! Thanks guys for walking me through this journey. I have her bias set at 81.7. Seems perfect. A little too high gain sound but ill see what happens when there is time to "play" . Gotta run to my day job!  thanks again. Mickey your a genius! And so is everyone else here!!


----------



## mickeydg5

You are welcome.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Mickey. You are chock full of technical information. The other threads are envious of us.


----------



## mickeydg5

What other threads feel that way?
I try to spread myself around.

Hell, in a recent thread, I was told how amazingly frustrating I can be. But at least he was laughing. Or was he???

Thank you for the kind words too Marty.


----------



## JohnDanese

Ya know what? I came here not even knowing I had a problem! I read a post saying that preamp tubes really hardly ever need changing because they don't get very hot and dont burn out. I kept blowing my 1 amp fuse and someone said "ya probably need tubes". Looking around, after seein the post about preamp tubes, I found this thread and was facinated by the information. 

Then I learned that the preamp tubes rule my DSL100! Picking up the amp, i heard a "loose part" and you guys took someone who never even changed his tubes before to: Opening up, taking apart the amp down to the one board, finding the "screen Res", Soldering the screen res on and the proper wattage and techniques to use for soldering, finding the culprit capacitor that seems the likely problem that started it all, testing and replacing the bad fuse, learning how to BIAS my amp, getting some idea of what the hell all those settings on a multimeter are used for....putting it all together again....Guys this was in a matter of days. JUST DAYS!!

I mean I didn't even know what the hell the tubes REALLY did except made me sound WAY better, haha!! Learned about the importance of the V1 (which I still need to get because the box was empty! LOL).

Now the next thing I will do is probably solder that cap on. I think the amp is buzzing a slight bit without it and the tinning of the iron tip will work I am sure. I may have to get some warmer preamp tubes because it does seem a bit too high gain but maybe not. After I put the new V1 on and have time to actually experiment with he settings I may want to bysome more tubes to rotate and see what comes up.

Seriously, you guys really led me every step of the way. This thread is more than tubes. It is where guys who KNOW the ins and out of these Marshalls come to chat. I am very lucky to have stumbled upon this thread! What a friggin' Journey!

Thanks Really!!


----------



## JohnDanese

Now if I can only learn about the tubes in my Hughes and Kettner Switchblade! THAT amp is crazzzzey! LOL!


----------



## Gutsanglory

Checked mail,
Damn...not here yet....8 more days or so to go. 
Marty you need to check into overnight service to Canada for my next order, this waiting is gonna be hard on my liver. (Eg: Aged wiskeys and beer)

Hey John, yeah these guys around here really know their shit. Most have many years knowlege and experience to pull from.

Hmm, I think I will stay away from the fan thing in the 401, as its the same as puters, the damn fans draw in dust and shit and use power, as well as create noize. I'm thinking just the vent itself will allow excess heat to rise out of the amp and disapate. The amp has ample air vents on the rear being an open back design.

"*(TUBE)addiction* is used to describe a recurring compulsion by an individual to engage in some specific activity, despite harmful consequences, as deemed by the user themselves to their individual health, mental state, or social life. There may be biological and psychological factors contributing to these addictions."

YUP...I'm a Tube addict. 

GUTS


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, I live in Oklahoma (formerly northern Kansas) and I could mail tubes to Washington state or New York and they would get there in 3 to 4 days. However, when you mail to Canada, which can be the same or less mileage, the delivery time is over a week. WTF? Do they purposely hold any package that comes across the border? I mean you have to fill out a declarations form, so they know what is supposed to be in the box. Maybe they think there is an Afghan terrorist inside a 6" x 6" x 7" box.


----------



## mickeydg5

You know I have gotten packages from Canada in less than 5-7 days.
What is the deal?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's something I will throw out. Did you know that all the post offices on USA border towns by Canada have massive amounts of postal boxes? All the Canadians come down across the border and get a postal box. Then they can have almost anything shipped to the box, drive across the border and slip though customs. Some of the border towns only have a 400 population, yet the post office has 2,000 boxes. 

I sent some speakers to a guy and they got damaged. What complicated things was he was using a "feed store" in the US as his delivery address, but he actually lived across the border in Canada. Man that was a mess to rectify. He became a major jerk. I finally got the post office to pay on the insurance after he finally returned the speakers to me.


----------



## Gutsanglory

OK oK...lets now stop talking shipping horror stories....dont help my liver any.

I'm sure everthing will be fine, I've received shiped items from the states many times. I actually had a motorcycle jack shipped up once, and it was damn heavy, but it was the best, and could easily lift my HD and keep it stable. Its true though...the customs people delay the shipping excessively.

Lets change the subject....someone post some tube porn! 

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

RFT's-For taming a bright amp.






Some sweet "not so common" beauties.






Telefunken...Hmm...PORN!






The RCA is actually a mislabeled Ei Smooth Plate made to look like a Telefunken. Tube says. "Made in Gt. Britain." Sorry, not true.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty
The silver plate to the left of the middle picture, is that a Mazda?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'll answer that. Yes. That must be the infamous Mazda that hid from Marty for a year. I've never seen any other preamp tube with the center cutout over the filament.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a guy from Canada trying to buy my DSL head. He wanted it shipped to him as a gift, with me declaring the value as ZERO. Now if I'd done that and something had gone wrong, what recourse would I have had? The only record would be a big, heavy package that had no value. I just couldn't do it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just shipped that four tube set to Clint as a gift. I set the value at $25.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mr. ALAN-I did some research for you and found out that the Orga Sonic may have came out in 1958. It seems it was very popular by 1962. "However" there were several variations. Here is an earlier model with (36) 6SN7's and a 6L6 power amp. Note just one speaker. I saw some other pictures where the model had the rotating speaker.






Website. Third article down the page.

Deviant Synth - If it's abnormal, it's here. » 2007 » September

Scroll down a little and the rest is about the Orga Sonic.

http://archive.ampage.org/threads/1/open/004610/Baldwin_organ_now_guitar_amp-1.html


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I'll answer that. Yes. That must be the infamous Mazda that hid from Marty for a year. I've never seen any other preamp tube with the center cutout over the filament.


I thought so. It looks like one I picked off Ebay a while back for under $40.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh yeah, I've seen that page. I've been searching and searching some more for examples. There are many Orga-Sonic models that Baldwin made. There's really no way to know what you're getting until you see it. I've even noticed that there's no consistency even between the same models. I've seen them with the exact same cabinet, keys, stops, etc. and one will have a 6L6GC amp and another will have a 6BQ5 amp. 

Another interesting fact is that Goodsell amps in Nashville got started by Richard Goodsell who was taking stock Hammond amp pulls from organs and tweaking them for guitar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I'm done surfing. Lots of different models. One had a rotating 12 with a full range 15. One had a rotating 10 with a 12. Different amps and probably a change from the 6SN7's to what? 12AU7's?

Remember all those 6SN7's I got from one of the Catholic churches in Kansas? That was an Orga Sonic. If I remember, it was a 1959 model.

Caution-One of the sites stated they weigh 500 pounds.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I thought so. It looks like one I picked off Ebay a while back for under $40.



You suck. I saw one affordable Mazda that was in Hong Kong. The guy selling it didn't even mention Mazda in the listing, but when I messaged him about it, he replied "Yes is French Maz-I-Da." Come to think of it, Marty may have snagged that one. I remember we watched it and talked about it for quite awhile on here.

That S&H tube that I bought from China showed up with a big crack running along the base. I got to watch that beautiful tube slowly go from a big, silver getter flash to a big white patch. It's still sitting on my computer desk as a reality check next time I see a deal that's too good to be true. To his credit, the seller said it was his fault and sent me a GE triple-mica 5751 for my trouble.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So far, I have had good luck with foreign dealers, especially from Spain and Germany.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I thought so. It looks like one I picked off Ebay a while back for under $40.



Sorry, I wasn't ignoring you. I was doing some organ researching for Alan.

Yeah that is the Mazda Silver Plate with a Raytheon label that says "Made in USA." LOL.

I got it cheap, because the seller didn't list it as a Mazda. It's not perfectly balanced, but close enough for guitar and it tests real good.

I've used it in several of my amps and it is my favorite V1 tube.

EDIT-While going to look at the Mazda, I found two Brazil Dario's that I had forgot about. Even though I moved and sold off 300 tubes, I still can't get everything in order.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It was real crazy when I was getting shipments in from Russia. I finally got rid of all those tubes. It was tough, because they are a dime a dozen on EBAY.

Got some killer Russian EL84's in that deal though. 1967 mudders.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not get shipments.  You guys are real dealers. I just pick.

The Mazda I got was from here in the US. I try to stick to intercontinental. It tested at about 86%/85%. I got lucky because it did not have the familiar markings. But people who know them know what to look for. I notice the silver plates have two or three styles of plates, some shinny, some flat and each slightly different.

One with supposedly 76% or a little lower scores sold for about $44 a few months ago.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd like to try one some day.


----------



## JohnDanese

Ok, now I have an amp again back to tubes!! Not thrilled with the current tones. Too high gain. Now I still don't have the Tung-Sol for v1 and I am using the old Marshall valve there. I am hoping it will tame or be warmer with the new valve. I never disliked the tone prior though so maybe I should roll some of those old babies back in there. Wish I had a tester though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Tung-Sol is the standard V1 for its price range, but it is a bright tube.

When people say warmer, I take that to mean a smoother or rolled off high end. 

The Tung-Sol won't do that for you.

The other way to skin the cat is different speakers that roll off at 4.5KHz.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Ok, now I have an amp again back to tubes!! Not thrilled with the current tones. Too high gain. Now I still don't have the Tung-Sol for v1 and I am using the old Marshall valve there. I am hoping it will tame or be warmer with the new valve. I never disliked the tone prior though so maybe I should roll some of those old babies back in there. Wish I had a tester though.


Well you have extra tubes now.
Roll some tubes through V1 and see which you like best. That wll suffice until you collect more tubes and find one you like better. 

Something else I was pondering; don't those amplifiers have gain knobs?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Posted this on my revived Speaker Thread.

Tried to get a Black Powder and Tonespotter for my TSL602, as I want to take the JBL's out. They are valuable and I don't want to blow them. (Worth about $250 for the pair.)

Parts Express listed the speakers in their 2013 catalog. I called and it was no dice...discontinued.

DAMN! I was looking forward to having "that tone" again.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I did some more research and the most likely candidate for that Baldwin organ is the Orga-Sonic 54A. There's an amp just like this one on eBay that uses a #55 amp. It's a 3-channel setup, powering two 12" alnico drivers and a built-in Leslie! Best thing is, it will be MINE by this time tomorrow! Cha-ching.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan do these old organs have a separate heater filament transformer? With all those tubes the power transformer would have to be a doozy. On that picture, I see a PT, OPT and a choke.

In my research last night, I came across the 54 model. I think the one I saw had one 12 and one rotating 10.

Did you get the logistics figured out? Transportation? Assistance? You ain't gonna try to move that by yourself are you?

Most of you know I have had triple hernia repair on the left side and once on the right. When I moved from Kansas, I sold my massive 65 inch projection TV. Sure enough, the guy who bought it showed up with another guy and two chicks. I had to get on the end that had to be lifted over the tailgate. After it was all over and they had left, I realized I really screwed my back up. When I got back down here, there was a chiropractor in Pryor, OK that I had used back in 2005. He is real good and after three trips I am back to feeling good.

I don't want that to happen to you Alan.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...and a built-in Leslie! Best thing is, it will be MINE by this time tomorrow! Cha-ching...


WTF? You mean an actual mechanical rotating device of some kind? Badass. 

When I was a kid my dad was a church organist. They had a massive Allen organ with rotating speakers that rotated on a flat plane. I loved to sit in front of the cabs and listen.

Allen Organ Gyrophonic Projector Leslie Speaker Cabinet | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

That old shit is cool.


----------



## JohnDanese

Alan, that looks Badass! Yeah I am sure that baby is beyond heavy!

Mickey, yeah the gain knobs , it also Has tone shift and deep. The Marshall never sounded bad. Truth is in my band I actually run stereo through my Hughes and Kettner Switchblade and my Dean Markley combo. Together those amps give me it all. I let my other guitarist use the Marshall. Over the years I had this DSL , it hasn't an enourmous amount of hours in it. It only gets used a few hours a week. I do like to play through it when alone though and not in need of any effects. It always had a deep musical tone on the clean channel and the lead channel had a shake the house crunch with some killer overtones and sustain was always just right there. With the new tubes its a little sterile. 

The clean channel also seems to have very low volume and the crunch option kinda helps but it lost a little something. It also seems to have more "ground" noise at higher gain than before. Maybe if I put that Cap on it will alleviate that a bit because I think it's purpose is to help with noise?? 

Anyway, I still have all the old tubes and I can always roll in and out some of those to see if there is a better cocktail of sound there. I am actually looking forward to it. The problem is I haven't actually practiced much and have some gigs coming up! LOL! Oh yeah we are supposed to Play all this cool equipment! Haha!


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a couple more photos from the guy. I'm a little worried that there may not be any all-tube tone generators. There's a large "mystery box" that takes up most of the left half of the back. That strange preamplifier is attached vertically to it and the main amp is in the bottom behind those two alnico Jensen-looking speakers. It looks like the tone board is mounted in the top of the organ. That's never a good sign. Still worth the money, though. The amp and preamp should go for over $100. The 12" speakers will bring a decent price. If that box on the left is a fully functional Leslie cab, I have no idea what to expect. 

Marty, I'm not even going to have to touch it. My uncle has a doctor's appointment and he's only going to be an hour away so he's going to pick it up. Dude says he can back up to his rear door and he can just roll it into my uncle's truck. Of course I'll have the job of unloading it. Thankfully I have two boys over 6' tall to help. Kids like that are worth their weight in gold if they're smart enough to follow instructions. 

Look for carnage reports over the weekend sometime. Even if it uses solid-state tone generators I'm still going to have fun. I've demolished more perfectly fine vintage mono and stereo phonographs, consoles, reel-to-reel machines than I care to admit. I bought a Magnavox console that was only about 18" tall and 4 or 5 feet long. I bought it at an antique mall, took it out the back door (to put it in my car of course), grabbed the Mullard IC1 12AX7 out and drove off with the console sitting there looking pretty much just like it did. I hope the old guy brought it back in and sold it again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my favorite organ story is this. When I worked for the pro audio company in Phoenix, the business next door was Arizona Organ (you may have remembered me talking about it before). They did business all over Arizona and parts of Nevada. One day, Darrell, the guy who modded the tone stacks in my BF Bassman's came over from the organ shop and asked if I could help him remove an organ. I told him I could. We drove to a rich area called Fountain Hills. We got to the place and it was a large, split level home. Turns out the organ was brought into the room before it was finished and they built the room around this big organ. I asked Darrel, "How we gonna move this up that narrow stairway?" (Mind you, this organ was well over 400 pounds.) Darrel goes out to the van and comes back with a blue tarp, safety glasses, respirator and a sawsall with one of those large construction blades that cuts through wood and metal. We made a tent over the organ and Darrell cut it up in five pieces. We hauled the pieces out to the van, Darrell took the owner's vacuum cleaner and vacuumed the floor and then we left. BTW-This was a solid state, three keyboard organ.


----------



## MM54

Sounds like the Baldwin 40C that was given to me a few years back, weighing in at over 400 pounds, we broke three steps while sliding it down the stairs into my basement. When it came time to move, I took it apart. The pieces are still sitting in my garage back home. Luckily it quit working a month before we moved, so I wasn't killing another perfectly good organ.

Which leads to when I killed a perfectly good organ, it was a Wurlitzer tube organ, I bought it for the purpose of selling the useful tubes out of. Well I made back my money I spent on it in the first two tubes, sold/traded about 5 more of them, and still have three. I also have 28 not-so-useful tubes from it, but that another story.

When I got it, it was working fine and I actually spent a day sitting in the garage playing it, sounded pretty good (needed a couple tubes replaced in a couple of the tone banks, but that's about it). Next day I took it all apart, to the level of I-have-boxes-of-capacitors-and-resistors-from-it. Still need to inventory them, they're good caps.

When the giant Baldwin shit the bed, I didn't really care, but after a couple months I started to really miss having an organ available to mess around on and now I simply wish I had pulled the 12AX7's and 6L6's from the Wurlitzer and replaced them with CP (I'd still have turned a good profit) and kept that organ working.

Oh well


----------



## JohnDanese

Troubles: ok you guys gotta be sick of me. I am sick of myself at this point. Well I soldered in the capacitor today. I gotta say I didn't do a great job
But it got in there. Got the Tung- sol too for V1 Put it all together. Rebiased. Plugged guitar into clean. Sounded good. Pushed the crunch button. Turned up gain. Major noise. Gain channel ok pushed tone shift - noise. Same with deep. As amp gets louder just an internal feedback and noise. Changed out the Tung-Sol with the old tube. Same problem. Did I fry something you think? Man I expected this to be successful. Any thoughts?


----------



## JohnDanese

Maybe ill cut out the cap again to start.


----------



## JohnDanese

Nasty cap job. Culprit??


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that is ugly. You needed to solder on the back side instead of trying to solder through the board. That big glob looks like a cold solder joint "and" it looks like you had your iron on it for a while and it could have heat damaged the cap.


----------



## JohnDanese

Think Ill just cut it off and bag it. I hope I didnt destory anything. It is not nessasary and the recommendation was remove it or replace it with a 1kv. remove it is probably a better option.


----------



## BluesRocker

Marty do you have any good tested Sonnatone (I think that is how it is spelled) 12AX7s? I have 1 and I would like to have a couple more.


----------



## JohnDanese

Cut it. Hope all is well now. Long process pulling apart.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MATT-I had a matched pair of Sonotone side getters, but I sold them 6 weeks ago to a hifi guy in Ohio.

I may have one or two in my non inventory box. I can't remember. I'll try browsing through it over the weekend.


----------



## BluesRocker

Its Cody btw lol and cool if you dont want them I will gladly take them off your hands. I think I got mine from Alan when I traded him some stuff and got the Tweaker from him


----------



## MartyStrat54

Matt, Cody, Joe, Alan...I get them all screwed up now and then.


----------



## BluesRocker

Its all good. I have been called worse.


----------



## solarburn

Me too!LOL


----------



## JohnDanese

All is well. Amp sounds great. Getting used to the new tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnDanese said:


> Cut it. Hope all is well now. Long process pulling apart.


I thougth you had the board out and was going to hit the solder from the other side.

Glad it sounds great.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> I thougth you had the board out and was going to hit the solder from the other side.
> 
> Glad it sounds great.


 
The past few days have been a comedy (dark comedy that is) of errors. On top of verything else my PC Crashed! Man: It just went. So today, I did the "bad solder job" while simitaniously setting up the new PC and trying to retrieve the stuff from the old hard drive ( no luck). Back to the Marshall, Plugged in as I previously said and Noise \ffgjgsgggqfs$$$@#@#@$mvtfff. ( I think I spelled the sound properly). 

Now as you know every time I have to take it down to that one board all the tubes gotta be pulled, chasis removed, every cable labled with a piece of tape, pulled and the plate cover has to be removed. Thats like a 1/2 hour to 45 Mins cause I really didnt wanna screw us mislableing a cable/wire connection! No idea what I'd do then. Schematics? Yeah Right! LOL. 

So the choice was, A) try to solder that cap again (I did buy 9 LOL, Wasted like three the first try) with my Terrible soldering skills or B) pull the Cap and hope I still have a Marshall in my aresnal. 

HEHE B!< I pulled the cap. Cleaned everything with electronic cleaner including the sockets, let it dry like an hour ( as I worked on the PC more). Finally I put it all togeter, BIAS the tubes again and now she is sounding sweet. 

Someday, I just might say to a freind who is good at soldering, Yo, Wanna solder a capacitor? Until then, I am good! LOL.

Now the friggin computer. Gonna definitely do a cloud with this one. Screw trying to retrieve Data!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A computer repair shop should be able to pull your hard drive and access it. I back up my computer(s) every week to a flash drive. That way, my documents and pictures are safe.


----------



## mickeydg5

JohnD

I do not know what happened to your computer. Is it a hardware crash or a viral crash?

As for that capacitor, if you get any noise or oscillation you can always solder a known good 1000V capacitor at pins #3 (plate) to #4 (screen) of V8 at the back of the board right there. It is the same connection points electronically and much easier for you to access I believe.


----------



## JohnDanese

mickeydg5 said:


> JohnD
> 
> I do not know what happened to your computer. Is it a hardware crash or a viral crash?
> 
> As for that capacitor, if you get any noise or oscillation you can always solder a known good 1000V capacitor at pins #3 (plate) to #4 (screen) of V8 at the back of the board right there. It is the same connection points electronically and much easier for you to access I believe.


 
It was a disk failure. The problem may have initially been a virus but I think the computer on reboot may have done a check and replaced the master file with an old Vista record. ( originally had Vista and upgraded twice to XP & 7. Of course the "recovery" drive was Vista. and it just messed it up.

In the new computer I added the old drive and was hoping to browse it and save files. The drive is corrupt and has no readable data. I am usually good at that kinda stuff. 

Hey yeah that may be the easy way to put a cap on there Mickey. I may do that if I feel motivated to do a full tear down again. Thanks as always!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah when I upgraded my computer, I took out the recovery partition, because if needed, I didn't want it to default to an earlier operating system.

Of course, I am way behind the times. Both my laptop and PC use XP Service Pack 3. The PC was bought in 2004 and has had a memory upgrade and new hard drive installed. The laptop is made in 2005 and it too has had a memory upgrade. I don't use a computer to download tunes and videos. So my system is plenty fast for what I do. I am thinking about getting an HP with the big monitor that has everything built into the monitor. Have you seen those? Pretty nifty and takes up very little space. Then I would be running Windows 8.


----------



## mickeydg5

We have computers ranging from XP, Vista and 7. My wife has an all-in-one Toshiba with the 23" touch screen. Love the big screen and it is quick.

I was just wondering about the crash. You can get those rootkill viruses or something like that which take over your hardrive and computer. They can hault your internet, stop protection uploads and make your hard drive look as if it is practically empty. If it gets that far then you have to boot from a disk or flash with a program that will get rid of the rootkill virus program.

Just putting that information out there for anyone who has stuff taking over their computer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's sad all the shit out there on the Internet that can raise havoc with your computer.

I guess that's one reason people use Apple. 

I didn't like Vista. Too bloated. My sister has a Vista laptop. She paid big bucks for it and my laptop is faster. Windows 7 and 8 are much better.

That 23-ich Toshiba sounds nice. I would love the touch screen.


----------



## JohnDanese

What about an IMac Mini? They are like less than $600.00 and apparently you can put a program on it that runs everything windows.


----------



## JohnDanese

Yeah, I think it was a rootkill virus. I WILL probably find a way to retrieve but honestly, since I have Music match for my iTunes I did not lose any music! WAY worth the price plus it keeps my iPhone less cluttered.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey knew I was looking for a Tonespotter and Black Powder. They've both been discontinued. I just about gave up, but then Mickey sent me a tease post saying he saw them available online. Not knowing the company, I tried Musician's Friend. Sure enough, they had both of them in stock. Now my TSL602 is going to get that magic pairing installed. You know how the TSL122 came with a Heritage and a Vintage. Well this is even better. Much better. It will feel good having that familiar tone back. Free shipping too!

I'm pulling out the JBL D123's. I don't want to blow them, so I haven't been playing it. Just saw on EBAY a guy listed a mint pair like mine for $395. I paid $225 for these. If I can get $275, that will pay for the new speakers and put some money in my pocket.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looking for "okbassplayerguy" to join our group over here.

Alan, he has the same JTM you have. His friend got it really cheap and all it needed was a V1 tube. Cha-Ching!

He has a question about the bias pot. I told him if I remembered right, that pot is on one end of the amp and it is a little bit of a bitch to get to. 

Anyways, I told him to get a hold of you for any info you can muster.

He is looking for NOS tubes as well. What are you running?


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Hey Marty. Just to be sure I am right on the bad tube being V1, the bad tube was the one beside the power tubes. Is that the V1? If you can confirm the tubes ID by location, that would be great. As I may have mentioned, this is my first Marshall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. The one by the power tubes is the phase inverter tube (aka PI). That will definitely kill the output to the power tubes.

Most Marshall have a silver cover on V1 and it is closest to the power transformer.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

OK, then the phase inverter was bad. None of the preamp tubes have a cover. The tube layout is: power tube | power tube | PI | ?? | ?? | ??. What are the other 3 tubes ID?

Is there any preference for the PI tube?

Maybe Alan can give me tube compliment he has in his. Thanks again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just went over to the Dr. Tube website and took a look at the schematic. I am not an expert, but it looks like the typical Marshall setup. FYI each preamp tube has two circuits, normally called triode A and triode B. Generally V1A will be your first gain stage for your clean channel and V1B will be the first gain stage to your crunch/overdrive channel. V2A/B is additional gain stages. V3A is final gain stage and V3B is the cathode follower. V4A/B is the PI. This may not be exactly right, but this gives you a basic idea of how the preamp tubes work. 

We have a guy over here named Mickey who might have a chance to look at the schematic and verify exactly what the preamp tubes do. The schematic at Dr. Tube was not a very good copy.

I also want to tell you a little about this amp. You will probably have to pull the chassis at some point. Unfortunately, these amps suffer from poor construction and design. There is a T6.3 fuse for the heater elements. Most people change this to a T10 fuse. The jacks on this amp are pretty low quality and at some point may give you problems. I know you don't want to hear this, but if it were mine, I would change all the jacks out with a quality brand. This amp has a tendency to blow the output transformer. It also has a PCB board mounted over the power tubes and this can cause heat related component failure. I'm not trying to rag on this amp, I just want you to know there are issues with this amp (as well as with almost any tube amp). Most guys keep a small fan on behind the amp to aid in air circulation.

Anyhow Alan and Mickey may be able to give you some additional information. Just keep hanging around. Alan was very busy this weekend, but I'm sure he will be here tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

For the PI tube, I like to use a lopsided, high gain tube like a Sylvania Gray Plate. By lopsided I mean triode A is one value and triode B is a different value. On my tester it would read as an example 34-46.


----------



## mickeydg5

okbassplayerguy said:


> OK, then the phase inverter was bad. None of the preamp tubes have a cover. The tube layout is: power tube | power tube | PI | ?? | ?? | ??. What are the other 3 tubes ID?
> 
> Is there any preference for the PI tube?
> 
> Maybe Alan can give me tube compliment he has in his. Thanks again.


 
You have a JTM610. It is the ones with the cage and horizontal mounted tubes. Yes the big tubes are the power tubes V105 and V106, next to that is the PI V104 and the three that are separated are the preamp tubes V101 V102 V103. They are all in order or should be.


----------



## RiverRatt

I actually got rid of the JTM. It wasn't getting used and I can't afford the luxury of having a different amp for each day of the week right now. The standard Marshall lineup applies to the JTM series. Philips in V1, Raytheon in V2, etc.

I got six nice green print 12AX7 Sylvies from that Baldwin. One Raytheon gray plate that says USA and it even looks like the real thing but I thought all the gray Rays were MIJ? The Jensen drivers are C12R's from 1965. Since they aren't AlNiCo, I may keep them for my personal use. I still haven't decided if I want to part it out or just take the choice cuts and resell it. The Leslie isn't a rotating speaker; there's a CTS driver pointed down into a rotating baffle. The effect is quite nice and true to the original but I don't think it will bring the same cash as the real thing.

I'll post some pics on Sunday, but I need to turn in for the night. I feel like I've been run over by a truck. I have to be all ready for the next week. It's less than 36 hours away.

Marty, one quick question... Could one of those Jensens handle the output of a Deluxe Reverb RI? I know that the R in the model # means they are 25w. If not, I may put them in my 2x12 and try them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well those C12R's are considered low watt speakers. They have a 50 watt musical program rating. The Deluxe Reverb RI uses a Jensen C12K, 100 watt speaker. 

Do you have an RI of the 1965 DR? That is a nice amp my friend. It's a combo? If so, isn't the big Jensen in it?

Yeah, if that's what you got, no, I wouldn't use it. Go with the 212 setup for 100 watts musical power.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought that in the C12R, the R meant a 25 watt rating. I read in on the internet so you aren't going to piss me off for anything if it's wrong. 

Yes, mine is the '65 Deluxe Reverb RI. I'm not going to start a thread about how it kicks ass, but kick ass it does. It's been modded with a MID control on the back plate in the external speaker output. I've wanted a VibroVerb RI but they are hard to come by. They are Dumble destroyers.


----------



## mickeydg5

Do not confuse current production Jensen wattage ratings with vintage. The vintage R was about 15 watts whereas a current R is 25 watts.

Add: Just to note, I am only refering to the normal continuous RMS power rating, not musical power rating.

Current speakers are built with newer technology and materials which can withstand greater power and heat. The older/vintage speakers are more delicate.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

What you would recommend in these three positions, V101, V102, and V103? Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Do not confuse current production Jensen wattage ratings with vintage. The vintage R was about 15 watts whereas a current R is 25 watts.



Yeah fellars, you may have misunderstood me. The "new" speaker is rated at 25 watts continuous and 50 watts program (musical) power.



> RiverRatt-Yes, mine is the '65 Deluxe Reverb RI. I'm not going to start a thread about how it kicks ass, but kick ass it does. It's been modded with a MID control on the back plate in the external speaker output. I've wanted a VibroVerb RI but they are hard to come by. They are Dumble destroyers.
> Today 12:39 AM



Wow...it just seems last week how you were raving about the JTM and the tones it produced. You are really trying out a lot of gear, aren't you? LOL.

What did you do with the JTM? Partial trade, outright sale?

Wonder what you will be playing next week?


----------



## MartyStrat54

okbassplayerguy said:


> What you would recommend in these three positions, V101, V102, and V103? Thanks



Vintage/NOS

V1-Mullard
V2-Raytheon Black Plate
V3-Sylvania Gray Plate

Current Production

V1-Tung-Sol (cheapest), Preferred Series 7025, TAD 7025S
V2-Shuguang (sold as a Ruby, Groove Tube and others)
V3-Electro-Harmonix


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Thanks, I will check out some sites and get some ordered.


----------



## johnfv

Too much going on this weekend. Haven't even had a chance to audition my latest glass from Marty yet. Soon... Thanks Marty!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah fellars, you may have misunderstood me. The "new" speaker is rated at 25 watts continuous and 50 watts program (musical) power.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow...it just seems last week how you were raving about the JTM and the tones it produced. You are really trying out a lot of gear, aren't you? LOL.
> 
> What did you do with the JTM? Partial trade, outright sale?
> 
> Wonder what you will be playing next week?



Marty, you should know by now that I'm a gear whore. I get tired of stuff and want something new. I always try to go with quality though. I'm running a pair of 6K6GT's in the DRRI and it's a great amp. I go through phases where I re-discover what I already knew. My first serious gigging amp was a Princeton Reverb. It wasn't really loud, but it didn't have to be for what we were doing. I think the DRRI does all things Fender and does them very well. It takes me back to the Princeton days except it's much louder. I still have my Tweaker 15 and JMP1C combo. I won't be changing amps anytime soon.

The JTM610 was a great sounding amp. It ended up going toward that Bassman head. I would have kept the Bassman and been happy with it, but the DRRI came along and it blew me away. It is a superb sounding amp with humbuckers, single coils, P-90's, whatever I throw at it.

I bought a set of Texas Specials for my sienna strat and finally I am where I want to be with it. Those Texas Specials are the ideal single-coil for me. I'm still dialing them in, but they are damned close already.

All in all, I'm pretty happy where I'm at. I just need to stay off Craigslist and stay out of music stores.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh yeah man dats some nice stuff!


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> ...I just need to stay off Craigslist and stay out of music stores.


...and Marshall Forum and Musicians Friend and...


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv-That's a nice mess of tubes you are fixing for dinner. Enjoy!


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Don't take me seriously when I am poking fun at you and your gear. I knew well over two years ago that you were turning into a gear whore. You were committed to your DSL, but then you started cheating and the rest is history.

I love Bassman's, but that DR is a real nice amp with more flavor going on. Did you ever tell me what speaker was in it? 

Anyway, I don't let anyone tell me what I can have and I don't tell anyone what they can have. It's like a woman. Whatever makes you happy.


----------



## RickyLee

*SUB THREAD: Getter Flash* 

I have an ECC83/12AX7 in my collection that is labeled with the "EICO" brand. There's no other markings. But this flashes when I first turn it on, like a Mullard ECC83/12AX7. So, does anyone know what other makes have this trait?

It has very minimal X seams on top, plate structure looks identical to an I61 Mullard. But the bottle is a bit shorter than my Mullards with no shelf along the bottom either. No markings or letters on the bottom underbelly either. I can almost make out either a 1022 or 1025 code on the side though.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's most likely a Mullard. That 1022 code is the identifier for IEC. You should be able to find an etched code near the bottom of the tube that has four digits and starts with a letter "B". IEC was the distributor for Mullard starting sometime in the mid-1960's.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> It's most likely a Mullard. That 1022 code is the identifier for IEC. You should be able to find an etched code near the bottom of the tube that has four digits and starts with a letter "B". IEC was the distributor for Mullard starting sometime in the mid-1960's.



I looked real good with my magnifying glass. There's no B code or I61 I63 type code either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Eico used the crap out of Mullards. Glass is not like working with metal and in the case of tubes, they have a + and - for dimensions. Since it is an Eico relabel, it probably is an I61. 

When's the last time you seen an Eico amp?

Now I will say that towards the end of the demise of tubes, I have seen I65's that did not have any markings on the glass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All that matters Ricky is if it sounds good.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-Don't take me seriously when I am poking fun at you and your gear. I knew well over two years ago that you were turning into a gear whore. You were committed to your DSL, but then you started cheating and the rest is history.
> 
> I love Bassman's, but that DR is a real nice amp with more flavor going on. Did you ever tell me what speaker was in it?
> 
> Anyway, I don't let anyone tell me what I can have and I don't tell anyone what they can have. It's like a woman. Whatever makes you happy.



I know Marty, but this time is different. I had to stop and take a hard look at what gear I had, and realized that I liked it more for what it said on the headstock than how it played or sounded. It was an obsession. The Marshall half-stacks were something I've always wanted since I was a kid, and when I got half a chance, I pounced on one; that being the DSL50. Then Cody had a 2266 head for sale in PURPLE! I had already decided that a VM was what I needed, and of course after I got that the old 1960B wasn't good enough so I got the 425A. I will say that IMO the Vintage Modern was what the DSL should have been. Only two channels to dial in, and they both sounded good and easily covered the classic Marshall tones I liked about the DSL, and it could be as mellow or as rude as I wanted. But, like the DSL, it just wasn't being used. The JTM610 was a good amp, but I wasn't comfortable with relying on it as a single gigging amp. It ended up being traded for that AB165 Bassman head.

To make a very long story short, I now have less gear and less-expensive gear, but the tone is all there and then some. Yes, I got rid of a Les Paul, SG, and some choice amps, but I'm perfectly happy with what I have. I do want a 1980's Ibanez Roadstar or Blade series sometime, but it's not a really high priority.

I'm almost sure that I mentioned the speaker earlier, but it is a Jensen 16 ohm 12" driver made in Italy. It sounds good, but I can't help but wonder if another speaker would sound better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's supposed to have a Jensen C12K.


----------



## RickyLee

I am going through my stash and found two Holland 7062 valves. Is the info that these are close to a 12AT7 correct?


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> I am going through my stash and found two Holland 7062 valves. Is the info that these are close to a 12AT7 correct?


The 7062 is a replacement for the 12AV7 and has a amplification factor of about 46 with heaters at 6.3V and .4A.


----------



## RickyLee

Thanks Mickey.


----------



## Nudge68

I received my order of 8 preamp valves the other day. I've been wanting to tone test v1 with each of these - 

Electro Harmonix - DR250 Hi Gain, 6072A, 6973 & ECC83 (regular). 
TAD - RT080, DR250 Hi Gain, 7025
And the Tung-Sol ECC83 "reissue"

I was thinking of using my normal reamping dry DI files and set up, which would free me up to knob turn. I'm going to record it as well so I can listen back and reflect.

So that I have a basis for comparison, I was simply going to have all the tone knobs unchanged at 12 o'clock, then roll the preamp volume or master volume through each position. Each unit has a different valve set as well ... two have a complete row of Mullards IIRC.

Of course there's more to the tone stack than V1, so I see this process as a starting point vs end-game. Hopefully I'll learn something, challenge my critical listening skills and get something I really like vs existing set-up.

To that end, how do you tone test while rolling valves and what are you listening for? I'm sure this thread has this information buried somewhere, just that reading all these posts will make me months!

Cheers,

Matt.


----------



## Gutsanglory

johnfv said:


> Too much going on this weekend. Haven't even had a chance to audition my latest glass from Marty yet. Soon... Thanks Marty!



Nice stuff, very jealous , I'm still waiting for my care package....come on postman!!

Guts


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well it's supposed to have a Jensen C12K.



Yes, that's the speaker. I don't have any issues with it but I'd like to hear how a couple of others sound. I'm not familiar with Italian Jensens. I have a WGS ET65 that should sound great in it, and I've got that red basket 85w Utah with the Radio Shack label on it. The Utah is weird. Some amps it sounds great in, but in others it sounds like wet cardboard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ricky-We do have some good tubes guys here> Thanks to Mickey for his reply.

The 7062 (E180CC) is more identical to a 5965. Very similar electrical properties. As Mickey said, it has lower gain than a 12AT7. 

These tubes are sought after for V1 use in hifi equipment with the Holland D getters from the 50's being the most desirable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, if you ever can find a used, broken in Eminence Red, White and Blues, they sound really good in a Fender amp. Eminence designed them basically for a Jensen replacement. They are 8 ohm. I run a pair at 4 ohm in my mint Randall RG90. They are really good at making a solid state amp sound better.


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee said:


> Thanks Mickey.


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> Ricky-We do have some good tubes guys here> Thanks to Mickey for his reply.
> 
> The 7062 (E180CC) is more identical to a 5965. Very similar electrical properties. As Mickey said, it has lower gain than a 12AT7.
> 
> These tubes are sought after for V1 use in hifi equipment with the Holland D getters from the 50's being the most desirable.


Do not thanks me too quickly. I should have given more information.

The 7062 is a replacement for the 12AV7 but not always vice versa. The plate wattage and heater-cathode ratings are different. The plates are all 2W and up. The 7062 has a heater-cathode rating of 200V with the 5965 being 180V. But the 12AV7 is only 90V. So be careful in that regard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well we still have a bunch of people on this forum who think you can just stick a 6L6GC in an EL34 amp. 

"The pins look the same and it fits my socket...it must be alright to use."


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hiya all,

Well, I'm truly enjoying the new power tubes I got, and am looking forward to the M-Tubepack thats on its way. In the mean time, I've been humming and hawing about adding a little more cooling to the combo. I have noticed that now that I've turned up the juice on the power tubes, the amp does store a ton of heat in the enclosed amp section due to being inverted and having the tubes point down. I deciced to go ahead with the vent, but wont do any fans as I find them just dust traps and noisy. Should be no reason for that kind of cooling anyway. (open back on this combo)
So here it is, I think I did a pretty good job...what say you?


























Seems to exhaust a tone of heat. 

Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

That looks factory BTW. Nice job! If I was looking at it, I wouldn't even know that it was an add on.

If you think that combo puts off heat, you ought to see the TSL122. I ended up taking the top and middle back panels off, so that it has better air circulation.

I'm sure the tubes will be there in the next few days.

Can't wait for your review.


----------



## MM54

That looks really sharp, G&G. Nice work.


----------



## RiverRatt

Excellent!


----------



## solarburn

It does look factory. Nice job.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man Joe, you are making a big pickup change. I never used active pickups. Just never liked them. I mean I can see where someone would want the active pickups to slam the front end of their amp without having to use a pedal, but it seems that most still do use a pedal.

I think if you have a high gain amp, a high output passive will kick the shit out of the amp.

With that in mind, quite a while back I went to medium output pickups in both the bridge and the neck. Using a high gain amp, I got the tones I was looking for.

Like I already said I used a Super D (Dual Sound model) with the original DiMarzio PAF in the Les Paul and this went into the two BF Bassman's. As stated, I used this rig for nine years, but I had the Les Paul since 1977. It was stolen in 1990.

Anyway I will say that there might be a volume jump between that 36 Anny and the Super D. However, I don't think it will be too bad and you will get some useable tones out of the neck position. If it doesn't work out, DiMarzio allows you to return it for a different pickup.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Man Joe, you are making a big pickup change. I never used active pickups. Just never liked them. I mean I can see where someone would want the active pickups to slam the front end of their amp without having to use a pedal, but it seems that most still do use a pedal.
> 
> I think if you have a high gain amp, a high output passive will kick the shit out of the amp.
> 
> With that in mind, quite a while back I went to medium output pickups in both the bridge and the neck. Using a high gain amp, I got the tones I was looking for.
> 
> Like I already said I used a Super D (Dual Sound model) with the original DiMarzio PAF in the Les Paul and this went into the two BF Bassman's. As stated, I used this rig for nine years, but I had the Les Paul since 1977. It was stolen in 1990.
> 
> Anyway I will say that there might be a volume jump between that 36 Anny and the Super D. However, I don't think it will be too bad and you will get some useable tones out of the neck position. If it doesn't work out, DiMarzio allows you to return it for a different pickup.



Well when I bought the guitar I went in knowing I was going to get an SD and something else passive in the neck. This was going to be my version of an LP that I couldn't afford. Also I'm going more vintage tone and gain level so high gain isn't my target although I love a raunchy hard rock tone...just not modern heavy gain.

I've played around with the Actives for a long time so now I know what music or tones they excel in and what I can't get out of them. I even went as far as getting EMG's active version of a Paf. I like it best out of the 81/85's for bridge position. It's great for rock and hard rock but its not going to the kind of dynamics for me. I think it sounds pretty good but I prefer something else.

I still may do the Paf Joe cause I like that round hollow warm tone from the neck but I may try both. You know choose between them. Really the only way I know is by trying it out. I'm not going to do a bunch of pup changes. I know I love the SD cause I have one in my Tele. They back off nicely for a hot pup and retain that meat sound while doing it. So I'm gonna just narrow it down for now to the Paf 36th and Paf Joe. If I find the SD to be too dark in this guitar Ill switch to something with less bass in it. That frequency is pretty stout in the SD.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When Paul Gilbert was in Racer X, he used an SD in the neck and bridge. The guy always gets wicked tone out of anything he plays. What amazes me is that he went originally to the DiMarzio Area pickups in his Fireman guitar. Now he is using his SIG Injectors with an Area in the middle position. The Injectors are a little hotter and more modern sounding than the Area's. However, you would never tell he was using low output pickups. He still gets pick harmonics and luscious overtones with the Fireman.

Like I said, DiMarzio lets you return a pickup and try another. You could buy both, pick the one you like and send the other one back. Done!


----------



## JohnDanese

Gutsanglory said:


> Hiya all,
> 
> Well, I'm truly enjoying the new power tubes I got, and am looking forward to the M-Tubepack thats on its way. In the mean time, I've been humming and hawing about adding a little more cooling to the combo. I have noticed that now that I've turned up the juice on the power tubes, the amp does store a ton of heat in the enclosed amp section due to being inverted and having the tubes point down. I deciced to go ahead with the vent, but wont do any fans as I find them just dust traps and noisy. Should be no reason for that kind of cooling anyway. (open back on this combo)
> So here it is, I think I did a pretty good job...what say you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to exhaust a tone of heat.
> 
> Guts



Yo Guts! This is great! Looks factory to me. Nice!!


----------



## Gutsanglory

Thanks guys, was just trying to make it look clean and professional. The silly vent was held up at customs for 5 days, coming from California to Canada. I hope dem tubes show up soon....cant wait to hear the difference they make.
Will share my findings here with you all.
I am also looking into a new speaker cabinet, still just in the planning phase though.

Guts


----------



## flyingskull

Hello everyone, great thread! 
Can anyone identify these preamp tubes I have? They were in an old amp I picked up off of the local classifieds.
Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are both 60's RCA's. It looks like they say, "7025/12AX7."

Looks like they need to be stuck in a pin index. Those pins look a little off.


----------



## flyingskull

MartyStrat54 said:


> They are both 60's RCA's. It looks like they say, "7025/12AX7."
> 
> Looks like they need to be stuck in a pin index. Those pins look a little off.


 
Cool thanks for the info! I was looking at them a bit closer and you are right they do have the 7025 12 ax7 on the side. Have you used something like this before? Are they tonally desirable in your opinion? 
I haven't had a chance to roll them in my Marshall. I have a 1974 JMP with Amperex BugleBoy and Tungsram in it. 

Where is the best place to find an indexer for the tube pins? Thanks for your help!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I meant to say, "12AX7A/7025."

Well the Amperex and the Tungsram IMO are better than the RCA's. I would run the Amperex in V1, the Tungsram in V2 and one of the RCA's in V3. Of course you could swap this around and see which one you like best. That is what rolling tubes is all about.

The 7025 is real desirable in a lot of Fender amps. Any 12AX7A is a sub for a 7025.


----------



## flyingskull

MartyStrat54 said:


> I meant to say, "12AX7A/7025."
> 
> Well the Amperex and the Tungsram IMO are better than the RCA's. I would run the Amperex in V1, the Tungsram in V2 and one of the RCA's in V3. Of course you could swap this around and see which one you like best. That is what rolling tubes is all about.
> 
> The 7025 is real desirable in a lot of Fender amps. Any 12AX7A is a sub for a 7025.


 
You are right on the mark with that! I do have the Amperex in V1 and the Tungsram in V2. Sounds great that way. I have a modern issue tube in V3 but I will try the RCA and let you know how it works! Thanks again!

I do have a Fender Superchamp xd, but it only has one 12AX7 tube. I'll give the other RCA a shot in there and see how it goes!


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Hey Marty,

Here is a picture of one of the preamp tubes out of that 1954 VOM 160 amp I mentioned having in an earlier post. Can you tell anything about it, as far as when it may have been made, etc?

Take care.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's an RCA like what flyingskull has. Exactly what do you want to know about it?


----------



## okbassplayerguy

I was just thinking about sticking in my JTM60, and was wondering which location would make the most sense, V1,V2,V3 or V4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All you can do is try it. I have know idea what the condition of that tube is. It could be worn out and if it is, it won't sound very good in V1 or V2.


----------



## flyingskull

MartyStrat54 said:


> I meant to say, "12AX7A/7025."
> 
> Well the Amperex and the Tungsram IMO are better than the RCA's. I would run the Amperex in V1, the Tungsram in V2 and one of the RCA's in V3. Of course you could swap this around and see which one you like best. That is what rolling tubes is all about.
> 
> The 7025 is real desirable in a lot of Fender amps. Any 12AX7A is a sub for a 7025.


 
Thanks again Marty for all your help and info in the thread.

Question for you... do you find as you hone in on your tone with preamp tube swapping, does your amp become more friendly to different types of guitars/pickup combos or does it narrow down(essentially less versitile) what works well and doesn't?

I see you are a Strat player, as I am. I am always seeking that balance with the Strat. With the Marshall I find I usually have to dial back treble and mids as it can be very bright. 

Also, Have you found that alnico or ceramic pickups work better for you with these NOS tubes? I have found ceramics are quite bright for me with the vintage Marshall tones and am leaning towards trying more alnico based pickups. I may be veering off the path of this thread and getting into too widely varied territory. Don't be afraid to put me back on track


----------



## MartyStrat54

Once you get a good set of tubes in your amp, it will be the best it can be regardless of the guitar/pickups used. The things you get from good vintage tubes is better dynamics, harmonics and the vintage tubes are quieter. 

Different pickups and guitars will have a different tone through a certain amp. That is why we all swap pickups and tubes and chase tone. And you are right, ceramic pickups tend to be hotter and brighter and alnico is a much warmer tone. I prefer alnico pickups myself. The reality is, changing pickups will make a bigger impact on your tone than tubes. Generally, after you are happy with a certain guitar, pickups and amp, then you can appreciate what a set of good tubes will do for your amp.

Most of the guys here have dialed in the target tone they are after. They have tried different speakers, different pickups and different guitars through their amps. These all have a big impact on the tone you hear. Once you get there, it is fun to roll different tubes and listen to the changes.

Rolling tubes is like the icing on the cake, but you got to bake the cake first.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Are you really, really going to keep your Deluxe Reverb, or do you see yourself selling it in the next 6 months?

I ask, because you will praise an amp and then sell it.

I had something in mind and it pivots on whether you are keeping the Fender.


----------



## MartyStrat54

flyingskull said:


> Where is the best place to find an indexer for the tube pins? Thanks for your help!



Antique Electronic Supply, Tempe, AZ


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-Are you really, really going to keep your Deluxe Reverb, or do you see yourself selling it in the next 6 months?
> 
> I ask, because you will praise an amp and then sell it.
> 
> I had something in mind and it pivots on whether you are keeping the Fender.



Well, nothing is carved in stone; but I've never had an amp that wasn't for sale if the right offer comes along. I'm not planning to sell the DRRI, it's an amp that I could keep forever and be happy with, but sometimes I just like to change directions. I get in a rut and get tired of the same old riffs with the same old tone. I find that going to a new amp or a new guitar can have an impact on my playing. This is especially true when I feel like I've hit a plateau. That's not the case right now, so I'll probably be hanging onto the Fender for the foreseeable future. 

The WGS ET65 was a big step-up in tone. It's an awesome speaker and really suits this amp well. You should hear the Strat with its new compliment of Texas Specials. That's exactly what this guitar needed.

Now will you tell me what you have in mind? :Ohno:


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Well, nothing is carved in stone; but I've never had an amp that wasn't for sale if the right offer comes along.
> 
> Now will you tell me what you have in mind? :Ohno:



Okay. That's what I thought. 

I was going to send you a new Mullard GZ34 and a NIB GE 5Y3, but I was only going to do it if you planned on keeping the amp.

It is your right to sell your amp when you want to. Thanks for being honest.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, did I just screw myself out of a tube? I'm too long winded. I won't be selling the Fender amp. If the worst happens and I'm forced to sell it, I'll send your tube back with interest for the time used.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that sounds okay. If you sell, you return.

I just thought that you would like a brand new Mullard GZ34 to have for your amp. I was also going to send you a 5Y3, but as you said, it's not rated for the wattage your amp puts out.

I think quite a while back I sent JOE a nice rectifier tube, but I can't remember for sure. He will know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is the newspaper address still good?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is the newspaper address still good?



Yes, that's fine. Thanks!


----------



## MartyStrat54

A member is wanting to ID these tubes. They are ribbed, with the pinched top (X), but they have a heavy getter flash.

ECC83 multi | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

By the print of the "ECC83" and the heavy getter flash it looks like a Mullard I65 to me.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think maybe Siemens ECC83.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked at some Siemens tubes and they have a slightly longer plate slot for the staple. The ear of the staple is more prevalent. The Siemens plate has a narrower ladder in the plate (more like a GE). None of them had that style of "ECC83" printed on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Post Office said Monday for you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Still no tubes, Clint?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Has anyone ever tried a GE 12AX7WA?






Picture courtesy of Tube Monger.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> A member is wanting to ID these tubes. They are ribbed, with the pinched top (X), but they have a heavy getter flash.
> 
> ECC83 multi | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> 
> By the print of the "ECC83" and the heavy getter flash it looks like a Mullard I65 to me.



I'm thinking Amperex or Mullard. The tabs aren't pointy like a Siemens or S&H. They are bent and slightly twisted. I think it's either an Amperex I65 or maybe an I61 Mullard.

I had a horrible accident. I was carrying a box of loose tubes and stepped wrong and I had to either drop the tubes or fall all over everything so I dropped the tubes. When I took inventory, I found that BEL that Joe sent me ages ago with the top half broken out of it. That was one of my favorite tubes, too.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have some GE tubes with plates like that. Looks like a late production 12AX7A.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think Joe got that BEL off of me.

As far as the mystery tube, I've never seen any Amperex that didn't have the Delta code. On the other hand, I have seen Mullard I65's that did not have codes on them. These supposedly were some of the last I65's that they made.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Have you owned a WA? They are the highly screened military tube I know you know that). I've had Fender cats swear by them for a V1 tube.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that sounds okay. If you sell, you return.
> 
> I just thought that you would like a brand new Mullard GZ34 to have for your amp. I was also going to send you a 5Y3, but as you said, it's not rated for the wattage your amp puts out.
> 
> I think quite a while back I sent JOE a nice rectifier tube, but I can't remember for sure. He will know.



Oh yeah. Mullard GZ34.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm thinking Amperex or Mullard. The tabs aren't pointy like a Siemens or S&H. They are bent and slightly twisted. I think it's either an Amperex I65 or maybe an I61 Mullard.
> 
> I had a horrible accident. I was carrying a box of loose tubes and stepped wrong and I had to either drop the tubes or fall all over everything so I dropped the tubes. When I took inventory, I found that BEL that Joe sent me ages ago with the top half broken out of it. That was one of my favorite tubes, too.



Oh shit man that was the best sounding BEL I ever heard.

I bought another from Marty cause I like them.

Sorry to hear of your tube misfortune.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Same here Alan. I'm glad you are alright. Them damn tubes are like eggs. The don't take a drop very good.

Yeah those BEL's are pretty sweet. So is a Lorenz and a Dario.


----------



## Gutsanglory

MartyStrat54 said:


> Still no tubes, Clint?






Nudda,,,,but like I said...the last thing i got from States was held up at customs for 5 days...I mean really....check it and move along people...why a 5 day wait....is it really that busy?

I'm hopeing for this next week...I'll letcha know..
thx
Guts


----------



## johnfv

I broke a Shuguang the other day pulling it out of the socket in my amp. It was hard to get out and when it came loose I smacked the top of the cab and cracked the tip. Thankfully just a cheap CP tube...


----------



## RiverRatt

I need to order a couple-hundred white boxes and get my tubes in order. A few weeks ago it was a 1950's Sylvania 5751.


----------



## Reckless_Life

Gutsanglory said:


> Nudda,,,,but like I said...the last thing i got from States was held up at customs for 5 days...I mean really....check it and move along people...why a 5 day wait....is it really that busy?
> 
> I'm hopeing for this next week...I'll letcha know..
> thx
> Guts



5 days?

Last time I had something coming from the US, it was nearly 4 WEEKS at customs. (I could check with a tracking ID)


----------



## MM54

RiverRatt said:


> I need to order a couple-hundred white boxes and get my tubes in order. A few weeks ago it was a 1950's Sylvania 5751.



I'd like to do the same, but my problem is I need a hundred of all sizes, not just noval, to get all my unboxed tubes boxed up, and that costs more than I can spare. For now they live in trays in my tube cabinet back home.


----------



## RiverRatt

I should recycle some boxes. I have a few lying around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I spent the weekend with a buddy that I hadn't seen in 29 years. We were in a band in 1982 to 84. I went to the biker bar he was playing at. The band did a real good job. The bass player builds amps and he built David (my buddy) a custom voiced 30 watt amp based off a Fender design. V1A/B and V3B are the gain stages. I took five tubes up with me so David could roll them. I was shocked that he never had done this before. He is 50 years old and never rolled any tubes. I included a ribbed Tele, Mullard I61, Amperex and 1959 GE. The fifth tube was a lopsided, high gain Sylvania strictly for the PI. I think that some good preamps and a set of TAD 6L6GC STR's will make that amp a lot better.

FYI-By the time the fourth set started, four people at my table left. They were co-workers of David's. I was sitting at this table by myself. Yes, there were some drunk biker girls in there and some were pretty hot and drunk. Anyway, I am watching the band and all of a sudden, I feel someone moving my leather jacket that was behind me on the bar chair. I turn around and it is a 350 pound Indian broad. She's drunk as hell and says, "You're lucky. I want to dance with you." Oh shit, this couldn't be happening. Then she says, "Put on your jacket and show your colors...look (she turns around and she has a big patch that says something about KIOWA INDIANS KICK ASS). I though it said, "KIOWA INDIANS WITH A FAT ASS." Anyway, she wouldn't leave and she kept pressing that mammoth weight against me. Finally I told her, "Look, I'm gay and the guitar player is my boyfriend...please leave me alone." She looked at me funny, but at least she left. 

Out of all the chicks in the bar, this is what hit on me. Oh my, I think my better days are behind me. LOL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alright. New page.

Alan, let me know when you get the package.

Notice I said "the package."

:eek2:


----------



## minerman

Cool story Marty, when I played in bands, never had a woman to hit on me, unless I took my wife along (we weren't married at that time, but still), then, it never failed. And, usually, they were "healthy" to say the least.......:eek2:

Dunno if you've read anything I've posted the last couple of days, but the Mullard rocks man, with the other tubes I had (stock EH/Egnater & a couple Riff Raff's 5751's), I was always wanting to use my SD-1, but not anymore, the Mullard make the Tweaker sound & feel like a totally different amp, thanks for the tube Marty!!!!

Alan is sending me a few tubes that should be here mid-week, so my tube-rolling adventures have finally begun. Needless to say, I think I'm hooked, so thanks again!!!!!!


----------



## MM54




----------



## Gutsanglory

OMG Marty...too funny.

Glad you got to hang with your old bud. Still no tubes yet, but I'm thinking most likely this week. 

Guts


----------



## JohnDanese

Marty, Great story!! LOL! Guts, I can't believe how long it takes, That is a bummer. I am sure it will be worth the weight though! 

Anyway, the preamp tubes I bought for the DSL 100:

*V1 - Tung 12AX7
V2 - Penta Labs 12AX7*
*V3 - Penta Labs 12AX7*
*V4 - Sovtek 12AX7 LPS* 

I decided to put back the original Marshall tubes in V2 and V3. The Penta Labs to me were too high gain. Great for Metal but I love the warmth with the old babies in there. I rolled these around and this was the best mix. I never tried the Sovtek out of V4 though, maybe I should roll that one somewhere to see what happens? 

Marty, I just may have to hit you up for something special. This tube swapping is definitely interesting!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I spent the weekend with a buddy that I hadn't seen in 29 years. We were in a band in 1982 to 84. I went to the biker bar he was playing at. The band did a real good job. The bass player builds amps and he built David (my buddy) a custom voiced 30 watt amp based off a Fender design. V1A/B and V3B are the gain stages. I took five tubes up with me so David could roll them. I was shocked that he never had done this before. He is 50 years old and never rolled any tubes. I included a ribbed Tele, Mullard I61, Amperex and 1959 GE. The fifth tube was a lopsided, high gain Sylvania strictly for the PI. I think that some good preamps and a set of TAD 6L6GC STR's will make that amp a lot better.
> 
> FYI-By the time the fourth set started, four people at my table left. They were co-workers of David's. I was sitting at this table by myself. Yes, there were some drunk biker girls in there and some were pretty hot and drunk. Anyway, I am watching the band and all of a sudden, I feel someone moving my leather jacket that was behind me on the bar chair. I turn around and it is a 350 pound Indian broad. She's drunk as hell and says, "You're lucky. I want to dance with you." Oh shit, this couldn't be happening. Then she says, "Put on your jacket and show your colors...look (she turns around and she has a big patch that says something about KIOWA INDIANS KICK ASS). I though it said, "KIOWA INDIANS WITH A FAT ASS." Anyway, she wouldn't leave and she kept pressing that mammoth weight against me. Finally I told her, "Look, I'm gay and the guitar player is my boyfriend...please leave me alone." She looked at me funny, but at least she left.
> 
> Out of all the chicks in the bar, this is what hit on me. Oh my, I think my better days are behind me. LOL.



A few more drinks in and you would have been pushing back!

Next time you fat those lips!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I could have gotten plastered if I wanted to, cuz I wasn't driving. However, Rule 22, Marty's Book of Life. Never get drunk in a biker bar.

You may wake up in bed with a whale.


----------



## Gutsanglory

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I could have gotten plastered if I wanted to, cuz I wasn't driving. However, Rule 22, Marty's Book of Life. Never get drunk in a biker bar.
> 
> You may wake up in bed with a whale.




LOL...Good rule to live by.

oh....guess what....Guts get a package in the mail......he go's for the knife....


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's about time. Damn!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Take a look at this page. I posted this info a long time ago here, because of the prices.

Clint, if you had bought your E84L's from them, it would have been $450 for the quad.

Just ridiculous prices. NOS GE 6V6GT's for $100. Crazy.

Power output vacuum audio tubes


----------



## Gutsanglory

yeah..thats some crazy numbers for them tubes...

SOOO im so damn happy...new cab yesterday...new preamp tubes today....kinda makes me wonder whats gonna happen tomorrow?
Without further ado:

The MM Pack!!

V1




V2




V3




V4





And the little group of heaven together:













Ok, mang......In they GOOOO!!!



Guts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Beautiful pictorial.

Now get them TooBs loaded in that amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I got my package today. WOW! What can I say? You are a prince among men.

miner, yours should hit your mailbox on Wednesday. I went a little crazy!


----------



## Gutsanglory

OK...there in...and warming up...I see glowing from all 4 

Give it 5 min....then test time!!






Guts


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I could have gotten plastered if I wanted to, cuz I wasn't driving. However, Rule 22, Marty's Book of Life. Never get drunk in a biker bar.
> 
> You may wake up in bed with a whale.



Good rule!


----------



## solarburn

Gutsanglory said:


> yeah..thats some crazy numbers for them tubes...
> 
> SOOO im so damn happy...new cab yesterday...new preamp tubes today....kinda makes me wonder whats gonna happen tomorrow?
> Without further ado:
> 
> The MM Pack!!
> 
> V1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V2
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V4
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the little group of heaven together:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, mang......In they GOOOO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Guts



Very nice.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, can you test that Black Plate on your Hickok and tell me what it reads on the "30" side? I think it should be like 2000 on your tester if it is the one I am thinking of.

I hope you can put that WA to good use. If anything, it is a great utility tube. A lot of my clients love them as V1 in their Fender amps.


----------



## Gutsanglory

OK...were to start?

Marty ...you rule dude....thankyou thankyou thankyou.

I'm seriously thinking I must have had a f*cked up tube in my old mix.

I mean its now really really clean and no buzz what so ever on the clean channel. The OD1 has a TONN of gain...had to dial it back to about 4 to find what I like. But dont get me wrong its a super smooth OD1 and sounds fantastic. The OD2 is just more of the same on a higher volume, and a little more heavy. (my kids gonna love it for Heavy Metal Crankin)
Soo all these things are great, and the amp is sooo much better sounding. Also the adjustments for gain, TMB, when adjusted seem to make nice even changes that you can hear straight away.
One of the HUGE things that I noticed right away was that my old tubes kind of "held back" the amp and it never really seamed as loud as I thought it was in the begining.....and yesterday when I got the 4x12 hooked up to it, it was much bigger sounding,,but not really super loud.
NOW....there is a HUGE difference in the actual volume...its about the same on 2, but from 2 to 3 is a humungus jump....i think 4 would be max while there is a girl in the house. Yesterday I had the amp to 5 and it was not as loud as 3.5 with these tubes. This thing with the 4x12 will absolutely wake the neighbors!! AND...it still sounds awesome on higher volumes.

I'm not a tube guru, but thats a huge difference in volume...maybe the old PI tube was fubared????

Anyway...I'm going to spend the night playing....my ears love it.....

Thanks again Marty...your MM tube selection in my book was Right ON!!


5 rockstars for you!!

Guts


----------



## RiverRatt

Gutsanglory said:


> I'm not a tube guru, but thats a huge difference in volume...maybe the old PI tube was fubared????



That's what I was thinking while I read your post. You beat me to it though! 

Marty, I'll go fire up the tester and check that tube. I can do Hickok and TV-7 both. Hang around awhile - I'll be right back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm still here.

Boy I'm having trouble finding Raytheon Black Plates. I have some, but they aren't as high of gain as I like. My wholesaler is flat out of them. I need 20-25 of the "good" ones. I wish they had made them for more than six years.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, the Raytheon tests at 48/54 on my TV-7, with 32 being minimum good. That's right in-line with what I'd consider a new tube. Anything that hits 48 or above is a strong tube. 

The Hickok shows it as 1075/1225 with 1250 being new. The Hickok results are usually a little more conservative than the TV-7. I usually go with the TV-7 scores except on the various 6BQ5 types that it can't test. I've calibrated both testers and tubes that I'm buying on eBay are testing dead-on what the seller's tester shows. 

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but Lori's test results on her eBay auctions are WAY off. She uses a Hickok 6000A, which is basically the same as the 600, 600A, 800 and 800A. The only real difference is the socket configurations. She lists 1250 as MINIMUM good on her auctions and gets readings in the upper-teens to mid-2000's. That's just plain wrong. I've mentioned it to her as I believe another member here has as well, and she sticks to her numbers. I don't know if she's reading the wrong scale, confusing the mU scale with the English scale, or her tester is just screwed up. A 12AX7 triode that tested at 1800 would be insanely high. A score of 1400 on the Hickok's mU test would be a HOT tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I just thought that some of the Hickok meters were different scales depending on the model. I remember that on most 1250 is nominal "new." 

Well your TV is right on with my 707. Good to know.


----------



## minerman

RiverRatt said:


> miner, yours should hit your mailbox on Wednesday. I went a little crazy!


 
Thanks Alan, can't wait to see what kind of goodies are in the package!!!!! 

Marty: Love the Mullard dude, can't believe what a difference just one tube can make in an amp, thanks again!!!!


----------



## JohnDanese

SO MUCH HAPPINESS HERE TONIGHT! Springtime Tube rollin!


----------



## JohnDanese

Hey if anyone gets a chance go by the sticky that has the Marshall codes. I posted two pre-amp tubes that came in my DSL100. See if you can identify them if ya get a chance. 

Thanks!


----------



## JohnDanese

Can any of you good gurus of Tubedom ID these tubes that I took out of my JCM2000 DSL100? (some pictures attached)

On the Marshall Tube code sticky they do not exist.
1) Marshall VLVE-00008R. Very faintly it is marked Made in Russia.

2) V1 preamp tube marked: VLVE20040 ( no dash after VLVE and does not have Marshall Logo).


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know if you've noticed or not, but Lori's test results on her eBay auctions are WAY off. She uses a Hickok 6000A, which is basically the same as the 600, 600A, 800 and 800A. The only real difference is the socket configurations. She lists 1250 as MINIMUM good on her auctions and gets readings in the upper-teens to mid-2000's. That's just plain wrong. I've mentioned it to her as I believe another member here has as well, and she sticks to her numbers. I don't know if she's reading the wrong scale, confusing the mU scale with the English scale, or her tester is just screwed up. A 12AX7 triode that tested at 1800 would be insanely high. A score of 1400 on the Hickok's mU test would be a HOT tube.


I pointed this out before. It appears she may just be thinking or reading wrong sometimes. The 1250 on the 6000A is for a good/new tube. I have noticed correct numbers on some auctions. I noticed she has other testers and does the same sometimes. I saw a 12ax7 tested on a TV-7 with 32 minimum she auctioned and stated test scores in the 80's up to 89.
You just have to figure on what she is doing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is another one of "those" tube auctions. One Amperex and the other an RCA. Seller states there is a difference in construction between the two.

Pair 12AX7 ECC83 Preamp Tubes Amperex RCA | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I pointed this out before. It appears she may just be thinking or reading wrong sometimes. The 1250 on the 6000A is for a good/new tube. I have noticed correct numbers on some auctions. I notced she has other testers and does the same. I saw a 12ax7 tested on a TV-7 with 32 minimum she auctioned and stated test scores in the 80's up to 89.
> You just have to figure on what she is doing.



I've tested some Sylvanias that approach those numbers on the TV-7. That's still a little too high to be believable, but it's not as out-of-the-question as her Hickok numbers.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Here is another one of "those" tube auctions. One Amperex and the other an RCA. Seller states there is a difference in construction between the two.
> 
> Pair 12AX7 ECC83 Preamp Tubes Amperex RCA | eBay



I can't decide if these sellers are as dumb as they seem, or if they actually know exactly what they have and are using ignorance as a marketing tool. Hell, I wanted to bid on them when I checked out the listing. They probably won't go for much more than that, either. Sometimes I'll find tubes flying under the radar like that and put up the minimum bid and just see what happens. I've gotten some incredible deals that way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Lost out on four slant getter Valvos from Germany. I got beat by $9.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the two "RFT's" went for over $45. I looked at his other items for sale and he had four NIB RCA's that said, "Made In Gt. Britain." Hmm! There were little metal tags above the top mica spacer. Yeah, you know what there are. I won them for $82.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy all hell broke loose when the tube industry collapsed. Amperex RFT's, RCA Ei's, RCA Tungsrams, etc.

"Know thy guts and save some bucks."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the two "RFT's" went for over $45. I looked at his other items for sale and he had four NIB RCA's that said, "Made In Gt. Britain." Hmm! There were little metal tags above the top mica spacer. Yeah, you know what there are. I won them for $82.



I have three of those myself. EXCELLENT V1 tubes for a Marshall. I wish I still had those original four that buried the needle on your tester. Those were pulls from a Laney AOR. It had four of those and a quad of EL34G's. That's like putting Walmart tires on a Ferrari.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice srams.


The "G" was my least favorite power tube I have ever tried. It was a realy mediocre tube. (Sovtek EL34G)


----------



## MartyStrat54

How many of you have used an RFT in V1 and what is your opinion of them?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I have three of those myself. EXCELLENT V1 tubes for a Marshall. I wish I still had those original four that buried the needle on your tester. Those were pulls from a Laney AOR. It had four of those and a quad of EL34G's. That's like putting Walmart tires on a Ferrari.



I remember those. How long do you think they would have lasted? My lord they were hot, crazy hot. I would have liked to hear them in an amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

I still have three EL34G's around here somewhere. They really do sound flat and lifeless. It's incredible how they could so closely copy an RFT and get everything right except the tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I remember those. How long do you think they would have lasted? My lord they were hot, crazy hot. I would have liked to hear them in an amp.



I think they were all microphonic to some degree. Not too bad in a head but definitely not good for a combo. I had a feedbacker yesterday when I was trying some different tubes in the DRRI. I put a generic MIJ 7025 in V1 and was using the second channel which doesn't even have V1 in the circuit. It sounded just like a microphone in front of a speaker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

To bad that 7025 didn't break instead of the BEL.

Did you see my post #14887?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got a wholesaler sending me 10 Black Plates to test. Man I hope they are decent. I really need at least 25, but these tubes are getting hard to find so I'll take what I can get.


----------



## JohnDanese

Anyone ever see or use one of these Vintage Testers? Accurate Instrument Company Inc??


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are a low cost emissions tester. If you can get it cheap, it is okay for just checking to see if a tube is still alive. These sort of testers tend to give out higher than normal test scores.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> To bad that 7025 didn't break instead of the BEL.
> 
> Did you see my post #14887?



Yeah I did, but I forgot about it. I've had several RFT 12AX7's and they sound pretty good. They are a smooth-sounding tube and I like the highs and lows OK. Now, the bad part: I have broken every single RFT that I kept and used. I've started selling them as soon as I can test them. I never even know what happened - I just look at it one day and it's turned white. 

I've had them crack in ceramic sockets more than once, which is another reason I don't like ceramic sockets. I believe that almost every 12AX7 tube I've had fail in an amp was cracked along the base in a ceramic socket.


----------



## JohnDanese

On Craigslist for 150. Looks like they go for about a buck on eBay. Your opinion, not knowing what is or isn't a strong tube would something like this be good to simply make sure a tube is "safe" to attempt to roll in my amp? In other words, if a cheapo unit like this reads ""good" then is it at least GOOD?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it will tell you if a tube is good and it will give you a meter reading. All I'm saying is that that tester will read higher than what Alan and I use and I don't mean what our meters say. On mine, 30 is real good tube, what I consider high gain. On Alan's, his will read either 48 (TV-7) or 1250 (Hickok). I believe yours reads up to 120 on the meter. On our testers, they give a more reliable test than just emissions. 

If you want a tester, I would say to get yourself a B and K. The 600 series are moderately priced and you can get a nice 707 for around $300. I can't remember what Alan paid/sold his 747 for.

I think even $100 is a little high for that tester. Maybe some of the other guys will give their input.


----------



## RiverRatt

I bought the B&K 747 on the shopgoodwill.com website for around $167 and IIRC it sold for a little over $350. I did a full calibration on it though, and it was working very well when I sold it. The 707 was an older tester that had been over-used, abused and neglected. I never really got it testing accurately enough that I was comfortable using it. It sold for around $125 and it needed work. 

I know it's hard to find tube testers locally, but they do turn up on Craigslist and in antique stores, etc. The two testers I'm currently using I bought locally from guys who had used them and knew they were good. Both were a steal: I got the Hickok 800 for $40; it just had a few cosmetic issues on the outside of the case. The panel was really clean - it looks a lot like a Marshall Plexi faceplate. 

I bought my TV-7 from a retired Army Signal Corps tech near Memphis who had it on Craigslist. It was listed for $120. I had to drive about 80 miles to get it but it was worth it. Not only was it in top shape, it had even been expertly re-painted and the rubber gasket was still intact. It's the best tester I've ever owned. It's military equipment so it was made to take a beating. I dropped it while bringing it into the house one night. It bounced down three brick steps and landed on a concrete pad. There was one brick-colored scuff mark on the case and that was all. It fired right up and worked as good as ever. The guy I bought it from said it could survive being submerged, shot, run over, etc. He had 2 or 3 supplemental manuals for it, all the paperwork, etc. There was even a bulletin that the army issued on how to destroy it to keep it from falling into enemy hands!


----------



## RiverRatt

John, if you just want a good emissions tester that gives you a good/bad reading, I'd recommend a Sencore Mighty Mite TC-154. They are simple and reliable and usually aren't terribly expensive. I had one a couple or three years ago. I think I paid $30 for it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-The reason I asked about the RFT in V1 is that I have been selling more for that slot and the high gain that a lot of them have can make a Marshall sound really crunchy. They for the most part are very quiet and the short plate design makes it a good choice in combos. Plus they take some of the brightness out in a good way. I'm working with a German guy to get 15 NIB RFT's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah a lot of people use the Sencore. It's pretty much one of the standards in an emission tester.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-The reason I asked about the RFT in V1 is that I have been selling more for that slot and the high gain that a lot of them have can make a Marshall sound really crunchy. They for the most part are very quiet and the short plate design makes it a good choice in combos. Plus they take some of the brightness out in a good way. I'm working with a German guy to get 15 NIB RFT's.



I always have RFT's on hand. Alan's ham fisted!LOL

I've never broke one and I've popped a few in and out of my amps. There is a warning at Tubemonger though to be careful because they may crack. They find their way into my amps sooner or later. I like their mids. Meaty.

Here is what I like about them. The more volume you put to it in V1 the better it sounds. I find it opens up compared to lower volume where it sounds darker or smoother. So when I get the amp going its more crunchy and not as smooth as it was at lower volume. Not dark or flat like a JJ83S is to my ears. Very good in Marshall and good in my OR15 too.


----------



## solarburn

Marty. If you get any decent BP's let me know. I have someone in mind that may want to try a Tele/BP V1 & V2 in his DSL. He's thinking over tube choices now. I'm pointing him your direction. You still have Tele's?


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I always have RFT's on hand. Alan's ham fisted!LOL



Guilty as charged! I never learned to be cautious. I have a steel plate in my arm, a prosthetic leg, numerous fractured and broken bones including both eye sockets (don't ask). I always heal. Unfortunately this means that sometimes people and objects in close proximity sometimes take a direct hit as well. I've come to terms with pain. It doesn't hold any power over me. If you're coming after me, you'd better shoot me. Sometimes I forget that those little glass bottles are delicate. I have had an inordinate amount of RFT's break vs other tubes. They do sound nice though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty. If you get any decent BP's let me know. I have someone in mind that may want to try a Tele/BP V1 & V2 in his DSL. He's thinking over tube choices now. I'm pointing him your direction. You still have Tele's?



Thank you. He sent me a PM. I need to find out a little more from him. He wants his DSL to sound more like a 5150iii. I don't know if tubes are gonna do that. I do have some ideas, but I need to know more about what his music style is and what his main guitar and pickups are. He is going to need a higher output pickup to get the highest amount of gain that the DSL can make. And he never said anything about whether he needed good clean tones. Once I get a little more info, maybe I can get a good V1/V2 for him.

Yes, I have Tele's. Lots of smooth plates. Getting low on the ribbed. I'm real low on Black Plates and I am getting some in maybe by Saturday to test to see if they will meet my standards. I really need at least 25 high gain BP's. Them suckers are getting harder to find. They were only made between 1959 and 1964. 

I've been running a high gain Philips (or Tele) in V1 with a high gain RFT in V2 and getting good results with this. 

Those Tungsrams I won should be nice high gainers and they are NIB. Did you see how clean the getter flash was on them? Sweet.

I bought some more Amperex and I have a bunch of them. Still have some Dario's, Lorenz, BEL and S and H. Also, Ei's. You know, a bunch of tubes. Hee-hee.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I've come to terms with pain. It doesn't hold any power over me.



This is the attitude I encourage & strive for in myself. It develops from coming to terms with chronic pain. Meaning nothing takes it away but a resolve to live and do things anyways. I'm sold on it.

Right now I'm having a bout of vertigo. Can barely walk and I sure as hell can't drive which means no work tonight. I woke up with it. Wanted to vomit and the immediate body sweat from those crystals being out of place. Thank goodness for anti noz meds. Happens to me occasionally. Got to do my special body positioning maneuvers to get right. Meds don't do shit for correcting it.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

Marty,

I have been given some old tubes from a friend and was wondering if you could tell me if this one would work good in the PI position in my JTM60 combo? He said the tubes all tested good. The tube is an RCA "Command" 5751. Here is a photo of the tube. Thanks again for your help.






Ed


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thank you. He sent me a PM. I need to find out a little more from him. He wants his DSL to sound more like a 5150iii. I don't know if tubes are gonna do that. I do have some ideas, but I need to know more about what his music style is and what his main guitar and pickups are. He is going to need a higher output pickup to get the highest amount of gain that the DSL can make. And he never said anything about whether he needed good clean tones. Once I get a little more info, maybe I can get a good V1/V2 for him.
> 
> Yes, I have Tele's. Lots of smooth plates. Getting low on the ribbed. I'm real low on Black Plates and I am getting some in maybe by Saturday to test to see if they will meet my standards. I really need at least 25 high gain BP's. Them suckers are getting harder to find. They were only made between 1959 and 1964.
> 
> I've been running a high gain Philips (or Tele) in V1 with a high gain RFT in V2 and getting good results with this.
> 
> Those Tungsrams I won should be nice high gainers and they are NIB. Did you see how clean the getter flash was on them? Sweet.
> 
> I bought some more Amperex and I have a bunch of them. Still have some Dario's, Lorenz, BEL and S and H. Also, Ei's. You know, a bunch of tubes. Hee-hee.



Well what I found with the Tele/BP in mine is a tighter, articulate character. Add the JJ34L's or the EH6CA7's and it builds on that tighter focused sound plus gives great articulation which is always a plus for high gain stuff. That was my thinking behind this although I set nothing in stone with him.

Oh come to think of it those Dario Miniwatts are pretty tasty gain wise. You got some great choices listed above. I could make use of a few of those to my delight.


----------



## MartyStrat54

okbassplayerguy said:


> Marty,
> 
> I have been given some old tubes from a friend and was wondering if you could tell me if this one would work good in the PI position in my JTM60 combo? He said the tubes all tested good. The tube is an RCA "Command" 5751. Here is a photo of the tube. Thanks again for your help.
> 
> Ed



I wouldn't recommend the 5751 in the PI slot. You can try it without harming anything. Some guys like the 5751 in V1, but I prefer 12AX7's. A 5751 has a gain factor of 70 and a 12AX7 has a gain factor of 100. So if you put it in V1, it will seem cleaner, but you won't have the same gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well after three hernia surgeries and the torn sternum, I have a lot of experience with pain. They sewed that mesh through blood vessels and nerves and it is not a good feeling. I am currently trying to get VA disability for this as the first hernia surgery was a quickie job performed by an Air Force surgeon that failed and once this happens, the odds of a good repair lessens.


----------



## okbassplayerguy

OK, thanks. The reason I was asking about using it in the PI position is because I thought I remembered you mentioning a JAN-GE 5751 as a good choice for that position, and I thought this one might work until I got the other one in. Maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*SOLAR*-I got a response from the guy wanting his DSL to sound like a 5150III. He is now thinking of buying the Peavey. I told him this was probably the best solution. The 5150III has a shitload of preamp tubes and has a lot more gain then a DSL. Two tubes is not going to transform the DSL into a 5150III amp.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *SOLAR*-I got a response from the guy wanting his DSL to sound like a 5150III. He is now thinking of buying the Peavey. I told him this was probably the best solution. The 5150III has a shitload of preamp tubes and has a lot more gain then a DSL. Two tubes is not going to transform the DSL into a 5150III amp.



Yeah probably best. I will say I don't like the smoother voice of the 5153. I prefer the bite and more open upfront Marshall tone. That's not saying the Fender EVH-5153 sounds bad...but it ain't my cup a Crown.LOL


----------



## BluesRocker

Guys I got my PRS in the mail today and since my main Gibson is gone I have some major setting up to do on the JV1959. I may have to switch out some tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> This is the attitude I encourage & strive for in myself. It develops from coming to terms with chronic pain. Meaning nothing takes it away but a resolve to live and do things anyways. I'm sold on it.
> 
> Right now I'm having a bout of vertigo. Can barely walk and I sure as hell can't drive which means no work tonight. I woke up with it. Wanted to vomit and the immediate body sweat from those crystals being out of place. Thank goodness for anti noz meds. Happens to me occasionally. Got to do my special body positioning maneuvers to get right. Meds don't do shit for correcting it.



Yes, you get it. I'm not trying to sound all bad-ass, it's just a fact. People can't hurt me any worse than I've been hurt before, and I lived through it.


----------



## solarburn

And quit hurting RFT's Hamfist!


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> Guys I got my PRS in the mail today and since my main Gibson is gone I have some major setting up to do on the JV1959. I may have to switch out some tubes.



Cody gets a new guitar and leaves us hanging on how it sounds/feels...?

Better be a thread in the guitar forum.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cody gets a new guitar and leaves us hanging on how it sounds/feels...?
> 
> Better be a thread in the guitar forum.



Haha. Sorry Joe. There will be a thread. I meant to take pics last night but was too busy molesting her. She feels fantastic. Thought I would never say this but it feels a million times better than my lp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What model/color is it? What color hardware? 

Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I live in pain every day. Some days worse than others. I could be on continuous pain meds, but where would that get me? The first time I tried Oxycontin, I said, "Man this is good...too good." I took it for two days and quit. I had read too many stories about people getting hooked on the stuff. 

I still have some bottles of Oxy, Tylenol3, Percocet and others. I don't know if they are any good as they are past the expiration dates.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...I still have some bottles of Oxy, Tylenol3, Percocet and others...


Might be able to sell those easier than the usual vintage glass "bottles" 

I've got a bad back and when it's bad it is totally debilitating. Pain pills might help you not give a shit about it but don't really fix anything. Still, it reminds me of what a friend said about coke (I don't mean Coke), "I hate that shit... do you know where I can get some?"


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> Might be able to sell those easier than the usual vintage glass "bottles"



True and I could also fall prey for an undercover operation.

When I was living by north KC, a small town cop was busted inside a Walmart selling Oxycontin to some chick. He got seven years and I never heard anything about the chick. She probably was an undercover cop.

I can't believe the street price for OXY is a minimum of $30 a pill.

Damn, I'd be rich!


----------



## RiverRatt

I have discovered that I have an unusual sensitivity to oxycodone. I have to take a pretty large dose for it to have any effect. That's from being on morphine for 3 weeks when I lost my leg. My pharmacist asked me once how I kept from being addicted, and I told him that I didn't. Every day there's a part of me that screams for that "comfortably numb" feeling. I've just had to learn to live with that, and now it's just a little background annoyance. When I had the carpal and cubital tunnel surgeries, my doctor gave me oxycodone at 20mg. FYI, oxycodone (percocet) is the same as oxycontin, except that oxycontin starts at like 30mg and doesn't have acetominophen and caffeine. When I take the oxycodone, I zone out. This last time I took it one night and sat down at the computer for 15 or 20 minutes. When I stood up to go to bed, I passed out cold on the kitchen floor. I screwed up my shoulder and had a concussion from hitting my head on something. I'll only take it now if I'm going directly to bed. I don't use anything like that recreationally. 

Narcs are dangerous to play around with. I met a girl I went to school with. I didn't know her until she came up and introduced herself. She was on her way to rehab and I was on my way to work. She was taking 20 hydrocodone a day. How in the hell do you take 20 hydrocodone in one day???


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's called building a tolerance.

I knew a meth addict that would snort two, 12-inch long rails of meth just to get a buzz.

Crack addicts need a whole lot of crack everyday as their system gets used to it.

Huge dosages go hand in hand with being an addict.

That's why there is a lot of crime.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is what I got on here to post. Some days the tube gods smile on you


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Narcs are dangerous to play around with. I met a girl I went to school with. I didn't know her until she came up and introduced herself. She was on her way to rehab and I was on my way to work. She was taking 20 hydrocodone a day. How in the hell do you take 20 hydrocodone in one day???



Ended my marriage last year. Addiction to it is easy. All it takes is a legitimate condition to be treated with it and it happens. To one degree or another. Unfortunately for me my best friend and love of my life gave her will and each day to it for a few years and still feeding it. At least she can't bring me down financially any more. I keep the kids educated on it so they don't get in a car with her. Course she would tell you I'm over reacting and dead wrong about everything. Denial. As ugly as the disease and every part of it.

And to be clear. Been there...done it myself many years ago. I know exactly how it is. I had to get help. Couldn't just quit with my soundest reasoning or best thinking. Women love them pills too. I see it all the time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I guess I just don't understand it. I've been there, done the pills and other intoxicants, and alcohol is my main poison now. Three beers are about my limit, although I do get a little carried away with red wine (like tonight! ). I don't make a habit of keeping whiskey in the house, but I do need my 2 or 3 beers a night to sleep well. Sometimes herbal medicines help, too. I've seen too many friends dragged down by addiction to cocaine, pills, alcohol, etc. There's even one guy who has to have all three. College graduate, professional license, and he sweeps the sidewalks. 

Addiction is one of those things that's hard for me to define. I can see how it happens, but I can't see how someone lets it happen, if that makes sense.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Another big haul from Jethro's log cabin.

Nice AX7 BVA.


----------



## BluesRocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> What model/color is it? What color hardware?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know.



Vintage sunburst, custom 24 with birds, hardware is kind of brushed nickel. Open coil pickups. Look in the low feet thread in the guitar section and look at the PRS 66 galaxie posted. That's it.


----------



## MM54

Damnit Alan, where do you find this stuff?


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's the part of the country he lives in. They are still using tube equipment and driving Model T's. They make their own whiskey as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Another big haul from Jethro's log cabin.
> 
> Nice AX7 BVA.



Jethro's log cabin?? LOL! Yeah, I whomped the hen house. 

That nice little BVA specimen is a 1956 Mullard that tests at 52-51 on my TV-7. Can you say "mC1's kick ass!"?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well they are going for around a buck fifty each. Good find. I saw a guy with a Mullard 6100 series which is pre mC1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay Alan. Tube time. This is a Sylvania that says, "Made in Germany." At first I thought it was a mismarked Mazda Silver Plate, but upon further review, it isn't. Is it an Ei nickle plate?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Nope, not an Ei.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm really curious what the hell that is?


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It's the part of the country he lives in. They are still using tube equipment and driving Model T's. They make their own whiskey as well.



Hey, I resent that. I've never seen my sister naked and I only have two extended family members who make their own whiskey. Seriously. 

I know people, and I know people who know people. Some of the best deals I've gotten have been made just by checking in with people I've bought from before. I get a few leads from the newspaper ad, and the rest is word-of-mouth. If you treat people right, word gets around. At least that's the way it works here in the sticks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

No markings on the tube, but he claims it is a BEL. Not only that, but possibly a cyro treated BEL. Sold as a Mullard (BEL).

Bel ECC83 12AX7 Ribbed Dual Triode Audio Tube Mullard Replica Cryo Treated | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nope, not an Ei.



Yeah, it is an Ei. I have one that looks identical to it. The year code is a 1. I have no idea which decade that indicates. Could be anything, but I'd say at least 1971, if not a decade or two more recent.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> No markings on the tube, but he claims it is a BEL. Not only that, but possibly a cyro treated BEL. Sold as a Mullard (BEL).
> 
> Bel ECC83 12AX7 Ribbed Dual Triode Audio Tube Mullard Replica Cryo Treated | eBay



According to the Philips code book, the BEL factory symbol should be a "V", not an "E".


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmm? The Ei has semi-circular cut outs on the plates and the tube in question has rectangular cut outs.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't need any Ei's and if I did, I wouldn't buy them one tube at a time. It's sad that the tube dealers who do have them all state they can be microphonic and not recommended for high gain amps or combos.

Too bad it wasn't a Mazda.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay Alan. Tube time. This is a Sylvania that says, "Made in Germany." At first I thought it was a mismarked Mazda Silver Plate, but upon further review, it isn't. Is it an Ei nickle plate?


 





Check out the pre-war NOS EI tubes, like these
Matched Pair Pre War EI 12AX7 ECC83 Silver Plate Tubes Yugoslavia Telefunken | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

This is my tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I "did" assume they were Ei's and then I had my doubts. Funny I looked at that EBAY listing yesterday and I laughed just as I clicked off of the page.

Thanks for the ID.

I still want the cyro BEL...I mean Mullard.


----------



## solarburn

You guys are all back country cut ups!LOL

I love this thread. We fuck'n post whatever whenever but its one of the most informative tube threads around.

Now I need to catch up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We fuck'n post whatever whenever but its one of the most informative tube threads around.



Speaking of that, my daughter ran off with a Nigerian midget who makes art out of old motorcycles. What should I do? I was hoping she would get hooked up with the Mexican drug dealer in the apartment below me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> We fuck'n post whatever whenever but its one of the most informative tube threads around.



Speaking of that, my daughter ran off with a Nigerian midget who makes art out of old motorcycles. What should I do? I was hoping she would get hooked up with the Mexican drug dealer in the apartment below me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here is another nimrod. He is selling an ADZAM as an Amperex Bugle Boy.

Tests Strong Amperex Bugle Boy Sub 12AX7 ECC83 12AX7 Pre Amp Audio Tube 404 | eBay

Name: Adzam (tubes made by MBLE, Belgium) (B) 
Abbreviation: ADZAM 
Products: tubes 
Summary: M.B.L.E. stands for "Manufacture Belge de Lampes Electriques". This biggest manufacturer in Belgium for incandescent electric lighting bulbs was formed in 1911 and sold such lamps under the brand of MAZDA. The company started about 1924 to also produce vacuum tubes and turned the brand name for these products the other way round: ADZAM.

He states that the tube has 1960s Herleen, Holland I65 Δ8C2 codes, but that doesn't match on my Philips Code website.

In 1957 Philips was involved with MBLE but we don't know exactly in which way and when this really started.


----------



## minerman

Thanks for the tubes, Alan & Marty, so far, they've made a big difference in my T15, & I've still got a few to try out......


----------



## MartyStrat54

Going to bed. I'm really tired tonight.


----------



## solarburn

Hey Marty! Look what my guitar guy got up and run'n for me...

[ame=http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1kkg0Hsb7DU]Tele & OR15 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh boy...rub it in. For those of you who don't know the story, I went into a music store in 2004 and Fender had a special run of Gold Top models. I really loved the Tele with the DiMarzio's in it. The price was really reasonable, a little over $400. However, I did not buy it and instead I got a Schecter from Musician's Friend. Now don't get me wrong. The Schecter is a beautiful guitar, but it didn't have the pickups the Tele had. I ended up putting DiMarzio's in it (at an added expense). 

Later, when I joined the forum, I met Joe and I quickly found out that he had one of these limited edition Gold Top Tele's.

I've always regretted not getting one.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh boy...rub it in. For those of you who don't know the story, I went into a music store in 2004 and Fender had a special run of Gold Top models. I really loved the Tele with the DiMarzio's in it. The price was really reasonable, a little over $400. However, I did not buy it and instead I got a Schecter from Musician's Friend. Now don't get me wrong. The Schecter is a beautiful guitar, but it didn't have the pickups the Tele had. I ended up putting DiMarzio's in it (at an added expense).
> 
> Later, when I joined the forum, I met Joe and I quickly found out that he had one of these limited edition Gold Top Tele's.
> 
> I've always regretted not getting one.



It's one beefy sounding Tele. I forgot how good it looks too. It's been sitting for quite awhile. I was thinking it needed more fix than I could afford at any time. The frets weren't as bad as I thought. $30 and its thump'n again. I have to say my guitar guy is not only capable but very affordable. Plus 10 minutes away.

Marty...next time you find one of these get it. It's not your Les Paul GT but it would have been a nice replacement for the fuck who stole that LP. This guitar can raunch and its a gat damn Tele. No twang here folks although it does coil split. I don't know how to "Twang" anyways.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, with dual humbuckers it doesn't sound like a Tele, but that is a good thing. It is a rockers guitar.

Joe, I have been looking for one of those for the last two years. The closest I came was a mint 2004 Fender Strat with the unmarked 24 frets. It had the DiMarzio's as well. 

If I want twang, I can get that from my 2008 USA Tele. However, I don't play it as much. Not meaty enough for me, or as you say, "beefy."


----------



## solarburn

Guys...check these crazy amps out made with old Hammond Organ Transformers/phase inverter circuits using Fender Deluxe tone stacks. Sound pretty good I think.

ANALOG OUTFITTERS | Humbucker Music

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XDlKoHiGFZA[/ame]

Here's a real Tele in action hehe:

[ame]http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vj-MaRyeAdM[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, with dual humbuckers it doesn't sound like a Tele, but that is a good thing. It is a rockers guitar.
> 
> Joe, I have been looking for one of those for the last two years. The closest I came was a mint 2004 Fender Strat with the unmarked 24 frets. It had the DiMarzio's as well.
> 
> If I want twang, I can get that from my 2008 USA Tele. However, I don't play it as much. Not meaty enough for me, or as you say, "beefy."



Meaty is a better word. I'll keep my eyes open for one too. I have not run into any since I got mine and that came my way from a distant family member visiting from Oregon. I traded my SG for it. It was only a Gothic SG. The Tele sounds and plays better or more like I wanted. Kid wanted an SG.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Took a look and listen to the SARGE. It sort of sounds like the custom 30 watt amp my buddy in Tulsa plays and that amp is based on a Tweed with some mods. Of course, his is a 6L6GC amp. EL84 amps tend to loose headroom pretty quickly. A DSL401 has some pretty good headroom since it is a 40 watt amp, but take the gain up and it gets crunch fast.

I think it's cool what they are doing using the old components and such. That SARGE has a massive power tranny. Good thing it has a tube rectifier or it might be a little stiff sounding.


----------



## solarburn

I was surprised to hear it sound so good. Can't judge a book by its cover rings true here.
I like the Ladies room sign on it. Very Unique look.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And it's built in a suitcase (test equipment case). Talk about "grab 'n go."


----------



## Gutsanglory

Hiya all,

Sorry..been busy lately,,,and any extra time i've had has been downstairs enjoying my upgraded amp and its killer new tube sounds (thanks Marty)

I'm not a good player, but I try and practice hard every day. 
Just following along, thinking of new speakers, but I'm pretty happy right now with the amp sounds im getting.

You all were talking about pain killers earlier, and I have to agree, I'm not that bad, but busted up my back pretty bad in 2000 and was laid out for about a year, and could barely walk. Was on pain killers heavy for the first year. I have in the last few years learnt to wean myself off of the killers and just live with the pain. Some days I still need them to control it, but most I can force myself to fight through it.

Nuff of that...ok...back to the basement I goooo...

Guts


----------



## solarburn

Gutsanglory said:


> Hiya all,
> 
> Sorry..been busy lately,,,and any extra time i've had has been downstairs enjoying my upgraded amp and its killer new tube sounds (thanks Marty)
> 
> I'm not a good player, but I try and practice hard every day.
> Just following along, thinking of new speakers, but I'm pretty happy right now with the amp sounds im getting.
> 
> You all were talking about pain killers earlier, and I have to agree, I'm not that bad, but busted up my back pretty bad in 2000 and was laid out for about a year, and could barely walk. Was on pain killers heavy for the first year. I have in the last few years learnt to wean myself off of the killers and just live with the pain. Some days I still need them to control it, but most I can force myself to fight through it.
> 
> Nuff of that...ok...back to the basement I goooo...
> 
> Guts



I know others who use them and not become unmanageable because of it. There are times when they can really alleviate a lot of pain. It's when a person convinces themselves they keep needing it when they don't.

I had to use them recently for a couple surgeries I had. I had a trusted family member keeping track of my doses. Kept me from giving in and losing my way which happens when I dose myself...sooner or later. Someone else can always dose you and keep you on script. For those who don't need assistance my hats off to you. I'm 100% abuser if I use. No ifs ands or buts.

Guts I'm glad you're enjoying the tones you're getting. Rock that every chance you get. I just love playing and with me you get what you get. I don't try to be anything other than what I can do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I forgot how many millions of US population is addicted to pain killers. One of the reasons is that prior to their accident and including the accident, the person may have emotional situations they were dealing with. Marital problems, financial, family matters and of course the accident itself. Pain killers help ease the emotional issues and is another reason people get addicted to them. If you go online, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands of clinics in business to help break your pain medicine addiction. It is very serious in this country, yet millions of these pills are prescribed every year.

When I was young and stupid, I lived in Port Isabel, Texas. (Right down the road from where Razor Dave lives.) This is by Brownsville and South Padre Island. Well I got to know all of the Mexican drug dealers. One of them specialized in smuggling brown heroin into the States. He eventually got around to asking me if I wanted to try some. I was a little scared, but of course I had to be macho, so I agreed. That was probably the best high I have ever had. I felt so good and I just molded into a couch in a dark room. The next day, I was late for work (which was not a good thing). I got my boss to believe my story and as the day went on I told myself that I wasn't going to do any drug that caused me to jeopardize my job. That was the first and the last time I ever did heroin. I can see why people get addicted after just one use. I then thought about the dealer. He didn't really care about me. He just wanted to turn me into another source of income.

I am lucky. Some scientist say that some people have an "addictive gene." I don't have it. I've been able to stop any vice I've tried. The hardest was pot. I smoked from age 14 to age 45. Of course I tapered off drastically after I turned 40, stopped getting drunk at this time as well. The pot out there is so strong that if I smoked any, I might have a heart attack. At one time, I was smoking pot all day long and lots of it. I think my lungs are thanking me for quitting.

I don't wish addiction on anyone.


----------



## BluesRocker

I was going through my Tube Cube and found my old RFT 12AX7... Gonna roll her in the JV1959 and take out the Mullard and see how she screams with the PRS..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah let me know. I think I am going to push more RFT's.

I've found that a high gain RFT works really well in V2 behind a Philips tube.


----------



## solarburn

I bet the weed today would shit all over my brain compared to what I smoked in HS and a few times shortly after.

The effect of a drug can be really attractive. Not every drug I did I liked. I stayed away from a few just because of the high. Cocaine and Crown Royal were my absolute favorite when I was at it. Fucking got me the euphoria I loved plus it made hooking up with ger so much more intense and satisfying. That combo played right into both my vices. Sex and drug euphoria.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah let me know. I think I am going to push more RFT's.
> 
> I've found that a high gain RFT works really well in V2 behind a Philips tube.



I'm using an RFT in V2 after my Shita which can be a little too cutting if in V1 but gives some nice bite otherwise. Like a hairy Mullard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a reverse metabolism (like a cat). If I did Seconal, barbs, pot, etc. I started speeding. Speed would mellow me out and therefore I bummed out a lot of my friends who liked speed. 

I met a girl in Weatherford, OK that just love Mexican F-40 Reds (Seconal). Wow, Joe, she was my dream date. She would get all mellow (and willing for "anything") and I would be on a speed buzz. The song, "Rockin' Into The Night" comes to mind. This chick was hot and I was her girl because I was the only guy with a line on junk reds.

Isn't it funny how some of our relationships were based on vices?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the weatherman said there was a slight chance for thunderstorms in my area. He sure did blow that prediction. It's been thunderstorming for over an hour, rain just pouring down, some hail thrown in for good measure and I've turned my TV's off. I have my online weather radar and it shows that Muskogee is in a long line of thunderstorms. The wind is just right and it is moving the storm right over us in a continuous fashion.

Good deal. This area needs all the rain it can get. Damn drought. Also, by Wednesday, they say we could have another hard freeze. I thought it was Spring?


----------



## BluesRocker

https://soundcloud.com/cody-baker-18/rft-tube-test

Thats the RFT into the JV1959 with the PRS. (Boosted with modded TS-9)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the weatherman said there was a slight chance for thunderstorms in my area. He sure did blow that prediction. It's been thunderstorming for over an hour, rain just pouring down, some hail thrown in for good measure and I've turned my TV's off. I have my online weather radar and it shows that Muskogee is in a long line of thunderstorms. The wind is just right and it is moving the storm right over us in a continuous fashion.
> 
> Good deal. This area needs all the rain it can get. Damn drought. Also, by Wednesday, they say we could have another hard freeze. I thought it was Spring?



We're getting the opposite man. Sunny and warm now. Course this after a weeks dumping of rain. Sounds like that rain there will be a needed cleansing. Course too much is too much. Don't be kite flying when that shit hits.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> https://soundcloud.com/cody-baker-18/rft-tube-test
> 
> Thats the RFT into the JV1959 with the PRS. (Boosted with modded TS-9)



Do you have a phaser on or weird time effect going? I here a strange upper mid phasing noise. Otherwise it sounds good.

Put back in your other tube and see if I don't hear it any more. Do the same rhythm. If you want of course.LOL


----------



## BluesRocker

It may be because I was standing right next to the computer and right in front of the amp at the same time.


----------



## solarburn

BluesRocker said:


> It may be because I was standing right next to the computer and right in front of the amp at the same time.



I've never heard that from your amp. Just a weird thing. You may be right about that Cody.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Blame it on your dick. Your dick was in the way.


----------



## BluesRocker

Like I was literally a foot from each


----------



## Gutsanglory

500 pages.....now thats a thread!!!! Congrats to all the members that pushed this thread into the greatness in helpfull knowledge and fun.

Guts


----------



## solarburn

Hahahahah!


----------



## solarburn

Whoa! Three 8:36's in a row.


----------



## solarburn

Cody I let sound cloud run and listened to your blues jam again. I like that one. Very cool.


----------



## Gutsanglory

I'm taking a break...my fingers are sore....guess there's a point in my practice when you hit burnout...and you should rest.
I think my LP needs a restring....think I've played enough to deaden then out...besides...my FB is gunked up and needs a good cleaning.

Beer time....my only vice left....besides TOOBS and BOOBS...hey..that would make a good thread...no?

Guts


----------



## solarburn

Noobs not boobs is pretty epic in the after hrs section.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Cody I let sound cloud run and listened to your blues jam again. I like that one. Very cool.




I will have to stumble across another jam for ya then.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, do you realize you got the first post on page 500 of this thread? 

Marty, they call that "training" when thunderstorms line up like boxcars along a storm front. The climate is changing. We're supposed to be entering a mega-drought from the mid-south to the midwest, but it's rained all winter and is still raining. We had a sunny day yesterday, the first in awhile. 

I am now sick from digging through all those old electronics and crap, with mold, mildew and who knows what else growing in it. So much for pain management. I've felt like I had an ice pick sticking through my left eye all day. It was worth it, though. I wish you guys could see the stuff that's still in there. There are at least 3 full-size filing cabinets and a wall of shelves that are loaded down with Sam's Photofact manuals. I just can't stay in there long enough to get a lot done. That little Heathkit emissions tester I got works pretty well. The meter may be dead on the B&K 700 though. It fires up but I can't get the needle to budge. Maybe it's just a bad component or tube. I haven't been into it yet. It's a shame because the faceplate is in really good condition.


----------



## MartyStrat54

500 PAGES!!!


















Thanks to all the regulars and lurkers who have contributed to the success of this thread.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I got sick salvaging parts out of a 1947 TV. You're right, they are loaded down with mold, mildew, rat feces and other toxic crap. After that experience, I use a quality dust mask when going through old shit.


----------



## RiverRatt

I type too slowly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Solar gets his name at the top of the 500th page.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

I learned to type in the 9th grade. I didn't type for years. Got my first computer in 1999. I've gotten pretty good at "strokin' the keyboard."


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> ALAN-I got sick salvaging parts out of a 1947 TV. You're right, they are loaded down with mold, mildew, rat feces and other toxic crap. After that experience, I use a quality dust mask when going through old shit.



This place is worse than most. Some of this shit has been sitting for over half a century. That mC1 Mullard I posted a picture of was inside a RF generator. Every now and then a piece of test equipment can give up a real haul, too. You gotta look in everything.


----------



## BluesRocker

New set up for the JV1959 now.. Well, getting ready to try it out. V1- RFT, V2- Telefunken, V3 Ray. BP


----------



## MartyStrat54

Especially "German" test equipment and electronic devices. Imagine finding a Telefunken 803...or a pair of them in great condition?


----------



## Gutsanglory

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Noobs not boobs is pretty epic in the after hrs section.



Hahah....Marty and you guys really like Boobs....I like you more already! 

100 pages of boobs....that'll keep me busy for a little while!

Guts


----------



## solarburn

I guess I own this page. Consider it wee'd on.

Watch out for koodies Alan. That sounds like its serious mold and stuff. Put your pick'n gloves on and get a mask. Hope you get some more goodies.


----------



## BluesRocker

Hey Joe,

Here ya go

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX14smq21HE]Warren Haynes ­with Joe Bonamassa -- Guitar Center's King of the Blues 2011 - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## solarburn

Gutsanglory said:


> Hahah....Marty and you guys really like Boobs....I like you more already!
> 
> 100 pages of boobs....that'll keep me busy for a little while!
> 
> Guts



A lot of perversion went into making that page what it is. Enjoy!


----------



## solarburn

Fucking win Cody.


----------



## BluesRocker

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Fucking win Cody.



Fast forward to about 6 minutes. Then it is a Win


----------



## solarburn

I got to say Warren's tone is too thin especially coming from a big blues man.

Joe's is good.


----------



## solarburn

That was way cool when they both got their guns off at the same time.

There's some wet panties out there in the audience and I hate to mention it but some guys prolly lost there loads too.


----------



## BluesRocker

I lost mine Joe


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! It took forever to finish page 499 and now 500 is over with. I looked and it didn't seem like a fully loaded page.

JOE-Did you fuck with it. I mean "your page?"


----------



## MartyStrat54

My bed is calling me. I think I will go now.


----------



## solarburn

We just got back from the coffee stand and got our drinks for free. They had to count their Till and gave us the drinks. Awesomeness!


----------



## solarburn

Man we cruised right through my page. WTF!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmm??? Both page 499 and 500 have 29 posts each. It took us forever to get through 499 and we blew through 500 in one night.

Must have been a good night.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Marty, I found a good use for that steel-reinforced GE tube. I've had 2 tubes start producing feedback in V1 in the DRRI. The GE stopped it cold! 

It's weird that V1 is making noise while I'm using the vibrato channel, since it's not even part of that channel's circuit. I popped one of my GamesHound Tungsrams in V2 of the DRRI and holeeeee sheeyut. That tube smokes! I'll probably get flamed, but I'm liking this amp more and more. Every time I play it, it just sounds RIGHT. I've got four amps now that cover about any tone I'm looking for. That little Vox AC4TV sounds like a real Vox now that I managed to fit that old 1960's Jensen P12R in it. The Marshall JMP1C is a great little tone machine, and the Tweaker is the Tweaker. It always sounds good.

The Tweaker is running into the 2x12 with my Jensen C12R organ pulls in it. I have a nice pair of WGS speakers just sitting here doing nothing. I need to get another empty 2x12. Cody, if you're lurking around, we need to work out something on that 1966 cab. I could sure use it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I also found some useful info on the net if it's correct... The TV-7 score listed in the tube data (minimum good) is 60% of the "new" score. That means that I should be getting a score of 53 or 54 for a new 12AX7 tube. That's pretty close, but I usually consider anything that tests 48 or above as new. I may have to re-evaluate. If the Hickok tests a tube with a score of 54 on the TV-7 as 1250 or close, then I'll know for sure. I don't normally use one tester to back up the other, but I probably should.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well anything between 30 and 32 I consider as good as NOS on the 707.

The TV-7 minimum good is 32. Does this mean 60%?

The 707 minimum good is 22. I always thought that to be 70%.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad that WA worked for you in that combo setting.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I also found some useful info on the net if it's correct... The TV-7 score listed in the tube data (minimum good) is 60% of the "new" score. That means that I should be getting a score of 53 or 54 for a new 12AX7 tube. That's pretty close, but I usually consider anything that tests 48 or above as new. I may have to re-evaluate. If the Hickok tests a tube with a score of 54 on the TV-7 as 1250 or close, then I'll know for sure. I don't normally use one tester to back up the other, but I probably should.


 
Where did you find or read the 60% number?

Tell me, a while back you tested something on your 800, I guess a 6L6 type, that read about 6000 where your stated 5000 was new. What did that tube read on the TV-7. I want to run and check a few numbers.


----------



## johnfv

*Fun with Fenders*

I'll post some pics soon but I have a new amp, the Prinzetone from Nik at Ceriatone. A sweet little hand wired Princeton clone that allows you to switch between tweed and blackface style tone. The rectifier and output tubes are CP stuff I had lying around but I rolled a few in V1. The Telefunken that I recently bought from Marty is perfect!

A question: I have some GT labeled Tungsrams in my BF Showman. I want to pull the one in the vibrato circuit so I can use it elsewhere. I'm guessing that would be V3, anyone know for sure? I'll put a CP Shuguang in there.

EDIT: nevermind, found the layout here. V3 it is: http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/fender/Showman_ab763-Layout.html


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Where did you find or read the 60% number?
> 
> Tell me, a while back you tested something on your 800, I guess a 6L6 type, that read about 6000 where your stated 5000 was new. What did that tube read on the TV-7. I want to run and check a few numbers.



From here: The TV-7 tube tester on testing unreferenced tubes.

This is the most informative page I've found on the TV-7. They guy sure seems to know what he's talking about.

How far back was that 800 test? Just recently I tested a Raytheon black plate 12AX7 from Marty on the TV-7 and the 800 just to get some comparison numbers. I don't recall testing a 6L6.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> From here: The TV-7 tube tester on testing unreferenced tubes.
> 
> This is the most informative page I've found on the TV-7. They guy sure seems to know what he's talking about.
> 
> How far back was that 800 test? Just recently I tested a Raytheon black plate 12AX7 from Marty on the TV-7 and the 800 just to get some comparison numbers. I don't recall testing a 6L6.


It was around here, post #2817.
http://www.marshallforum.com/marsha...es-who-what-when-where-how-94.html#post837023
I am not sure what was tested. I figured it might be a 6L6.
I just wanted to see if you had compared 6L6 or EL34 tubes with the two testers and look at some numbers.
I will check out the TV-7 site link. Any information is good for reference, usually.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh, I remember that. That was a NOS Tung-Sol 6550 that I bought from CKCinMASS. He had (and still has) several pairs listed in the Classified section. I couldn't get an accurate test on my TV-7. The needle would hit a fairly high score and then start to fall rapidly. I assumed that the TV-7's filament current wasn't enough to sustain it long enough to test.

I was about to go and check out some 6L6GC's for a friend. I need to find a close pair. I'll run them through both testers and get back with the results.


----------



## RiverRatt

My daughter says I have to cook burgers & brats first. I'd be happy with a couple of beers for supper but you know kids. I do like a bratwurst with my beer occasionally though. I bought whole wheat sub rolls from the deli and have the sauerkraut and brown mustard ready.


----------



## MartyStrat54

My sister in Pryor is a damn good cook and I drove up to her place for a homemade Mexican spread. Yummy.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to have to do a line voltage calibration on the Hickok. It did great for maybe a half-dozen tubes, then it started testing consistently low. Even going back to the tubes I'd just tested, they would fall way short of the first score. I'm hoping the needle is just acting goofy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When my 707 did that after I had it calibrated, I sent it back to the guy and it was the sensitivity pot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said, my sister called for me to come over and I did...without placing some bids on a big batch of strong Baldwin/Raytheon Black Plates. 15 pairs of tubes on the auction block. They ended up going for $12 to $15 each. I should have put $40 down on each pair and they very well may have all been mine.

Fuck, That was a good price. Below wholesale. Greengirl has BP pairs for $70.

It may be a few days before I am over this one. These organ pulls are getting rarer everyday.


----------



## RiverRatt

I figured it out. When I tested the first batch, I was playing guitar and letting the tubes warm up for several minutes. When I put the guitar down, the test scores went down too.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I figured it out. When I tested the first batch, I was playing guitar and letting the tubes warm up for several minutes. When I put the guitar down, the test scores went down too.


Whaaat?? I do not get that statement.

I know that you know some of this
before testing let the tester warm for 15-20 minutes first
when testing a tube leave the tube under test in test mode for at least 20 to 30 seconds for stabilization, after a minute or two warmup
wall voltage will affect reading some no matter how the line voltage gets compensated; you know just a little off, not way off


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the batch of Black Plates came today and got tested. Not a one of them were any good for me. Everyone was around 18-19 on the 707. My wholesaler said he sold the last batch I tested (which were the same results) to several overseas customers. 

Who the hell want a 55% tube?

The Tungsrams came today as well. Three were in the low 30's and one was crazy high at 39-47.

Still looking at some other sources for Black Plates. I'm really hurting for them. Not taking advantage of those that were on EBAY was a big mistake. Of course, there were no test scores. The seller just stated "really strong." You never know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I figured it out. When I tested the first batch, I was playing guitar and letting the tubes warm up for several minutes. When I put the guitar down, the test scores went down too.



So guitar playing affects your tube tester?


----------



## RiverRatt

Allow me to clarify... I would put the tube in the tester, play for 5 to 10 minutes, then test the tube. Wash, rinse, repeat. After testing a half-dozen, I realized that I wasn't going to get done last night, so I put the guitar down and started just testing tubes. Apparently the extra warm-up time was making the tubes test higher. 

That's why I said that I need to do a 117v calibration. If the voltage supplied with the needle zero-ed isn't consistently 117v, something's off somewhere. Maybe just the needle. Also, static electricity on the plastic cover of the meter can play merry hell with test results. All I know for sure is that the test readings were getting a little squirrelly so I shut it down for the night. I need to check out that iso-transformer box I picked up last Friday and put it between the wall voltage and my tester.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I managed to keep my massive variac and I could actually run the tester off of it. The other thing I was thinking about is the 707 tests the 12xx7 tubes with 12 volts. Another .6 would make for a higher test score.

What voltage does your testers use for 12xx7 tubes?

I warm my 707 up, but the tubes are ready to test in about 20 seconds. I get no needle rise after 20 seconds.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I'm not going to trust the Hickok until I can get it opened up and checked out. The way it's acting, I'd bet money that the rectifier tube is weak. I did a few quick voltage checks and everything is low. On the 6L6 test, I'm getting around 6.9VAC on the heaters with no load. With the 6L6 in place, I get right at 6.3v. When I hit the test button, it drops to 5.8v.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is it normal for a rectifier tube to just go bad quickly or do they age in time like a power tube?

If it is the 83 I sold you, I'm sorry. This is one of the reason I went with a solid state rectifier and got the unit calibrated with it installed. I know you don't like SS rectification in your testers, but to each his own.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I'm not going to trust the Hickok until I can get it opened up and checked out. The way it's acting, I'd bet money that the rectifier tube is weak. I did a few quick voltage checks and everything is low. On the 6L6 test, I'm getting around 6.9VAC on the heaters with no load. With the 6L6 in place, I get right at 6.3v. When I hit the test button, it drops to 5.8v.


That actually sounds about right for a Hickok 600 6.3 filament circuit and loading a 6L6.


----------



## RiverRatt

It seems like it's sagging a little too much. The needle is going to a higher number and almost immediately falls back a couple of ticks. I don't remember it ever doing that before. It did happen right in the middle of testing a lot of 6L6GC's. New is 5,000, which should be around 43 on the TV-7. I had a tube last night that tested at 48 on the TV-7 and tested near 5,400 on the Hickok, then 30 minutes later it barely pushed 5,000. Nothing changed that I can think of.

Marty, that 83 I got from you is still going strong in the TV-7. I have another one or two but they are at a friend's house.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good, because I was sure it was a solid 83, or I wouldn't have offered it to you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy, after missing out on those $12 Raytheon's and the batch of tubes from my wholesaler that tested at 55 percent, I started watching these. Funny thing, these are the same Baldwin labeled BP's as was in the prior auctions, but this guy states, "matched quad."

Three day left. Where will they go?

Test Level Same Date Match Set of 4 1960 Raytheon BLKPLT 12AX7 ECC83 Tubes | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL! I was just looking at the TubeDepot for some reason and thinking that they dearly love their JAN JRP-12AX7 Raytheons. Right after that I got an email from TubeDepot announcing their 6-hour NOS Fire Sale, with BIG savings on the JRP... now instead of $199.95 each, you can buy them for $149.95! I was thinking about ordering a couple-dozen or so. 

Obviously these places stay in business so they must be selling some product, but who's buying??? Even at $150 a pop that's still at least $100 too much.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a crazy, crazy market, ain't it.


----------



## solarburn

I got that same email.

DELETE!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would like to rob Tube Depot.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's only fair... they rob everybody else.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I actually favor the Tube Store in Canada. That's the place that sent me $200 worth of CP tubes to evaluate.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> It seems like it's sagging a little too much. The needle is going to a higher number and almost immediately falls back a couple of ticks. I don't remember it ever doing that before. It did happen right in the middle of testing a lot of 6L6GC's. New is 5,000, which should be around 43 on the TV-7. I had a tube last night that tested at 48 on the TV-7 and tested near 5,400 on the Hickok, then 30 minutes later it barely pushed 5,000. Nothing changed that I can think of.
> 
> Marty, that 83 I got from you is still going strong in the TV-7. I have another one or two but they are at a friend's house.


First thing I would check is rotary switches. The old switches can do things like that. Wiggle them to notice if there is any flucuation in the meter reading.
Also, I hope you did not mean that you left the power tube in the test socket for 30 minutes. Anyway if you leave some tubes sit for a while, especially ones with kinks or problems, the reading may go up or down from previous depending on the tube or issue. Some tubes may read high at first and then settle after a minute or more during test. And there are others that may need a long warmup and test just to get the maximum out of the test results. Honestly I think a good part of this is all due to the fact that tubes act up more when filament voltage is low which is inherent in some of the old tube tester designs. A lot of them dropped to below 5.9 VAC, some 5.6 VAC. But they were designed to operated as such. That is why people pay for the 539s, better power supplies and no sag.


----------



## Micky

Sounds like it might be something temperature related.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's testing pretty consistently, the scores are just a little lower than before. Warm-up time doesn't seem to matter much. Still though it could be temperature related, like maybe a resistor that is drifting when it's hot. Maybe a weak cap? I'm going to have to open it up - speculating ain't gonna fix it.


----------



## plexilespaul

hey riverratt/marty/solarburndsl50 ...or anyone out there who are more experienced than me.
my jcm 800 came up today ,after biasing , on the bright side after installing electro harmonics for power and preamp tubes...before it had jj for pre and power and was not bright at all. what tubes you guys recomend to tame those harsh highs??


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the JJ preamp tubes are probably the darkest sounding of all the current production tubes. You got used to them and now you have brighter tubes. You may have to go back to a JJ in V1. That should make the amp darker.

An RFT ECC83 will also darken the tone and is a great V1 in the 800.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't like EH 12AX7's at all. Have you tried just putting the JJ 12AX7's back in? Also, if you have some wiggle room, try changing the bias on the EL34's a little hotter and a little colder and see if you notice an improvement either way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I just recommend the EH 12AX7's for the utility slots. The EH is brighter than a Tung-Sol.


----------



## solarburn

Avivoni:

I don't like Eh 12AX7's because they are too bright and a bit harsh in my DSL. Also don't count power tubes out for warming an amp up too. JJEL34L's would help. You only need to get some of the power section introduced to the preamp to have an effect and of course the more added the more the tone changes one way or the other.

Other thing is when you put all of one preamp tube in all slots it can be a bust. Figure out what your tone slots are for that amp. If its V1 and V2 or what ever. Then use a tube with certain characteristics in those slots. You can tone shape just focusing on one or 2 slots. Did you try a JJ in V1 and a EH in V2 to see what you get?


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Just for fun, I went to the early pages of the BooB thread. Man were we having a good time then and right on the verge of mod edits.

Ah the good ole days back in 2009.


----------



## solarburn

I did like 3 days ago reliv'n them days and hotties!

That's funny. We had some fun. I haven't learned how to post pics with this IPAD yet or I'd freshen it up a bit. Water it here and there...LOL


----------



## JohnDanese

Hey guys, so last Thursday night my house caught fire! We lost just about everything but my family got out alive and that is EVERYTHING! 5:00am sound asleep. A BOOM from the garage (where the fire started) woke me up luckily. We got the kids, cat and dog out and the house just got swallowed by flames.

My gear was in the basement studio and it got pretty wet, sooty and didn't look to promising. The company that did the initial boarding up took the gear to store for me. I said lemme just take the Dean Markley combo (killer little amp) and bring it to my office to try and clean it up. Cleaned all the soot off and opened her up. Sprayed it down with electronic cleaner sat overnight....Working better than ever. Next project- The Marshall Head. I am glad I had the chance to pull her apart a few times a couple weeks back. Now I know what to expect. Ill letcha's know in a week or two how I fared.

Pictured is a shot of the fire from the local news and The Dean Markley "Before" the clean up.

Good to be alive and have the family!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Man, you qualify for the "Heller of the Year!" I admire you for cleaning up your amp, but I would just be making a claim list for my insurance company.

What blew? Gas water heater?


----------



## solarburn

Very happy to see you and the family are alright. Sorry to see this happen! Hopefully you can salvage stuff and have insurance to help...if you have it.

That pic is crazy!


----------



## solarburn

Got to get ready for work so Ill catch up to you guys later.


----------



## JohnDanese

Think it was an electrical (old Fridge) with the lawnmower and or snowblower close by. Whatever blew up and made the POP saved us all though!

All my stuff is well insured. The Dean Markley is fairly rare (150 watt combo) and it sounds incredible. Has an old 12AX7 (Sylvania or GE: Geez, I cant remember) on board that sounds so killer! I love using that as my dry amp. I REALLY wanted to bring it to life. The other amps will probably be filed as a claim though. I finally got the Marshall sounding great though so we've become attached even more. LOL

My 79 Les Paul Custom was submerged under the Murky water for almost two days: SUBMERGED! I brought it to Ron E Kayfield a local guy who does some great work. It was splitting at the seams ion the head. He looked at it and said, "John, You are Lucky, The neck didn't twist and I can fix her!".

He fixed quite a few that were submerged in Katrina. I am thrilled about that!


----------



## JohnDanese

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Very happy to see you and the family are alright. Sorry to see this happen! Hopefully you can salvage stuff and have insurance to help...if you have it.
> 
> That pic is crazy!


 
Thanks man


----------



## JohnDanese

Nite all. Need some zzzzzzzz's


----------



## plexilespaul

riverratt/marty/solarburndsl50 thanks for your replies guys...i think i will try to put a jj in v1 and see what happens


----------



## RiverRatt

Jeez, John. That's awful! At least your family made it out OK. Stuff can be replaced. Don't let the insurance company screw you around, either. You should get back what the gear is worth to you, not the lowest eBay auction price.


----------



## plexilespaul

avivoni said:


> riverratt/marty/solarburndsl50 thanks for your replies guys...i think i will try to put a jj in v1 and see what happens


 
well the jj did the trick...i think the EH power are also bright compared to the jj or the winged c power tubes cause there still a little fizziness overall at low volumes.
i know the bias was spot on to that amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wished that you would have asked about the EH's before buying them. Someone could have helped you out on what to get.


----------



## plexilespaul

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wished that you would have asked about the EH's before buying them. Someone could have helped you out on what to get.


 
yeah i should have bought the jj's (they are even priced the same)
i could live with the EH but i have to keep my presence and treble at 0 just to get were i was at with the jj's (presence 4 and treble 3)


----------



## Gutsanglory

Holy Crap John....glad everyone got out ok. Guess its time to rebuild it again. Hope you do well with the insurance, It'll make things much easier when they come through for people in times like this.

Guts


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Sorry to hear John...


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, I was drawing a logo for a Facebook page I started today as an outlet for some of my collection of junk and maybe a nice piece or two here and there. This is the logo I came up with. Opinions? I'm not going to mention the unanimous answer I got from my family, but if one more person says it, I'm going to shoot them (not really, but you know).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that a 12AX7 or a 5751?

Does the guitar have high output pickups?

What brand of pick does the tube dude use?

Just fucking with you.

I like it. That is one mean looking tube. Joe just wishes he had tubes like that in his Orange.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Maybe I should have you do a Martimus Maximus tube logo?


----------



## RiverRatt

Everybody here thought it was a condom.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was thinking they thought it was a baby bottle.

If it was a condom, that would be one big reservoir tip.


----------



## RiverRatt

The thing is, I got the outline of the tube from a pre-war Ei that I happened to have a photo of handy. The same tube is in my Marshall JMP1 as we speak. I was going for a 1950's retro look with the black and white theme. It has a noval base! Who the hell has seen a condom with a noval base? Talk about a grid stopper...


----------



## mickeydg5

So its an electric self-warming baby bottle playing a guitar with a burnt dorito.

No seriously, it looks damn good. The tube and guitar are quite detailed.

A Roman gladiator tube for Martimus Maximus.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Mickey. It's what I do. I can't stand those guitar and music pics that are on the clip-art sites we subscribe to. I don't like to do something half-assed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> A Roman gladiator tube for Martimus Maximus.



Hey I like that. A Roman gladiator tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sometimes I draw stuff at work to take a break from thinking. Adobe makes some nice software. This one looks much better at full print size.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Back in 1999-2001, I was really proficient with Adobe Photshop. I stopped doing that and I doubt if I remember much.

When I was off for 18 months on Workers' Comp, I retouched a lot of my family's cherished pictures that had cracks or stains in them. I spent up to a week on just one picture. It can be very demanding "matching pixels."


----------



## mickeydg5

Make sure to incorporate the "Maximus" style helmet.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Back in 1999-2001, I was really proficient with Adobe Photshop. I stopped doing that and I doubt if I remember much.
> 
> When I was off for 18 months on Workers' Comp, I retouched a lot of my family's cherished pictures that had cracks or stains in them. I spent up to a week on just one picture. It can be very demanding "matching pixels."



Yeah, you get it. Now imagine having to do 30 of those pictures, but you have 5 minutes to make it as good as it can be. That's the pace I've been working like for over 10 years. I sometimes have to leave a photo and come back later. It's even slower when I can't decide which picture to use, so I combine two into one. That's easy with sports photos.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I used to thrive on fast paced, high pressure jobs. Now that I am semi-retired, I could never go back to that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think it's funny when someone is selling high priced tubes and then they feel the need to charge $18 for the shipping of 4 tubes.

Four Amperex Bugle Boy ECC83 12AX7 with Copper Grid Rods and Foiled D Getter | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

These are NIB PRO COMM tubes made in 1-92. Using the magnifying function, they look like Ei smooth plates.

Yes or no?

Pro Comm Industrial Grade 12AX7A 12AX7 Pair of Pre Amp Tubes Original Boxes | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like to post pictures of different tubes to keep you guys sharp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those tubes look older than 1992. They look like pre-war Ei production. I don't know how or why, but the older ones look darker... darker glass, darker components, etc. This is my oldest Ei, but the date code seems to have been mostly rubbed out since the photo. IIRC it's a 1967. I've been running it in V1 of my JMP1C. It's a great sounding tube!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Isn't it amazing what companies did to maintain their tube sales.

You never know what's inside the box until you open it.

Raytheon was like RCA. They bailed pretty quick at making tubes. Then they had their "Registered" line which was all Japanese. Except on the box it said, "Made in USA." And that was true, the box was made in the USA.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a Raytheon anomaly. It is built EXACTLY like the USA black plates, except that it has gray plates. It says "Made in USA" on the tube. I really don't think that it's a MIJ tube, but I don't recall ever seeing a USA gray plate before.

Okay, since you're throwing curve balls tonight, have a shot at this. It's a 12" speaker I bought today for $2. All I know is that it's AlNiCo and from the one page of relevant info I found on the internet, I'd guess it was made in 1941. That's only because I found one reference to a speaker with all these same numbers, except the last series of numbers ended in "40" instead of "41". Here you go... tell me what I've got.


----------



## mickeydg5

Those Pro Comm tubes look like EI to me.

Sometimes I think sellers hike up packaging and shipping cost in a effort to gain profit on the sale.
When I look at buying something the shipping and handling is figured into the total cost for what I am willing to pay.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I have a Raytheon anomaly. It is built EXACTLY like the USA black plates, except that it has gray plates. It says "Made in USA" on the tube. I really don't think that it's a MIJ tube, but I don't recall ever seeing a USA gray plate before.
> 
> Okay, since you're throwing curve balls tonight, have a shot at this. It's a 12" speaker I bought today for $2. All I know is that it's AlNiCo and from the one page of relevant info I found on the internet, I'd guess it was made in 1941. That's only because I found one reference to a speaker with all these same numbers, except the last series of numbers ended in "40" instead of "41". Here you go... tell me what I've got.


That is a 12" AlNiCo Magnavox, 41st week of 1949. Well I think it is 1949, maybe 1959.

Here are some more Magnavox:
2 Vintage Magnavox 12" Speaker Guitar Organ Alnico Jensen Pair | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

It looks like it could handle some power. The cone has 2 or 3 tears in it. I was thinking I'd try the Duco cement / tissue paper trick; I would like to hear it in action before I throw money at it.


----------



## mickeydg5

They make for some nice speakers.
I would keep power below 30 watts because of age and condition.
How about a cone picture.


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, about that... I did mention it had a couple or three tears in it. Let me see what I can do for them first. 

They all look like punctures and all are near the outside edge so they might behave if I can get them back together smoothly. I've used a small bead of super glue on the edge of the tear to help anchor everything. If you do it right and don't get the cone misaligned, it can sound pretty good.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have sometimes lightly used flexible cement and durable cloth tape to patch things.


----------



## RiverRatt

This one may be too far gone. I dunno if I can justify a re-cone. I am getting a lot of speakers that need work. I have a couple of 1960's CTS square magnet 12" speakers that died in a cab.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-Somehow, my master speaker reference manual did not make it out to Oklahoma. I don't know if it accidentally got place in the "junk" pile or what. I went to look for it and it is nowhere to be found. That manual went back into the late 30's on speakers and was good for up to year 2000. What a loss. It had all the speakers indexed by size and part number. This is why moving can be a bitch.

Good call on the Magnavox, Mickey.

It is difficult to repair a fresh speaker, but an old dried out cone is a bitch. I had a Waldom speaker parts account and would still have it, but they finally folded and went out of business. I used them for years. They had some good stuff. Great selection of cones, voice coils and spiders. Maybe that's why I threw the manual away, because I couldn't order parts from them anymore. Oh well.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is too bad. Stuff like old speaker manuals can make for great reference material.

Magnavox is not as sought after as Jensen but usually still high dollar. I would place them almost the same or right under Jensen. It is worth keeping for later use and having a proper recone if you want that vintage sound and feel. Well that is if the original cone is dried up or bad.

Add
*Peter Jensen was Magnavox until he became JENSEN.*


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was selling a lot of stuff and downsizing and getting stuff packed for my move. Things got a little crazy. I had two packing tape dispensers and then I only had one. I looked all over for it and never could find it. Then after moving, I found it in one of the boxes. I had put it in there and then I taped the box up. 

Yeah, I was a little frazzled.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm spent. I spent most of yesterday and and much of today behind the computer watching auctions on EBAY. I'm pretty much done. I have one open auction that ends tomorrow and it's not a biggie if I don't win it. I snagged several large lots of organ pulls. 27 Sylvania Grey Plates and 20 Raytheon Black Plates. Also some ribbed plate Tele's and several lots of 1950's Amperex (my inventory of Amperex is huge).

I still could use some more ribbed Tele's, but most of the auctions exceeded what I was willing to pay. I have a good selection of smooth plate Tele's, so I haven't been going after any of them.

I've almost exhausted my "tube buying" account. This latest haul was pretty damn good at a per unit price. I spent almost a grand. I was really getting worried about the Black Plates. The guy I bought them from offers a 14 day return, which is good. They were tested as "strong" on his Weston 978 Gov't model. Hopefully the needle on my 707 will confirm this.

After I met my long lost buddy in Tulsa, I took five tubes with me for his custom built 30 watt amp. It is based on a Fender circuit with a 5U4 rectifier. It has four 12AX7 tubes, but one is the reverb driver. Anyway, he finally got around to rolling tubes and he liked the one's I brought him. His bass player is the guy who built the amp and now he is wanting some tubes and also several of his buddies. Hello. Cha-ching!

I also have a couple of amps that might be bought, both of them are VTX Peavey combo's with Scorpion speakers. 

And I may have told you guys that for some reason, I did a search for my old Oklahoma City music store (which burned to the ground). When I did, one of my hits was from a new music store in OKC. I clicked on it and to my surprise, it was owned by an old buddy of mine that used to be the Peavey rep for Texas, OK, Kansas and Arkansas. He and I go back to 1974. He is just a little older than me, so we were both young back in 1974. He is the guy who sold me that original Peavey MACE. Later, I bought the Gold Top from him (at Driver Music). Well I sent him an email and he responded. I am going to try and go down there to see him. Looks like he has quite the nice store. 

Oh yeah, he has a lot of Peavey.


----------



## mickeydg5

You have been busy!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yep. I just found out that the ribbed plate Tele's were all smooth plates, so I cancelled the transactions. Damn! Maybe it was for the best if the seller didn't know the difference. He had them listed as "ribbed smooth plates." Funny I know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I tallied up the actual purchase money and it was closer to $1100. 

Lot of tubes coming in. I had to buy some more tube boxes.

For fun, I was watching a pair of Philips/ECG 12AX7's. They are NIB. I looked a little while ago and they were up to $82. Gee, what a joke. They work alright as a PI, but they are really stiff sounding as the ECG tubes were ruggedized for aircraft use.

I'm gonna hafta sell some tubes before I can buy anymore ribbed plate Tele's. My tube stash money went bye-bye.

*Also, I changed my webpage address. It is now martimusmaximus.webspawner.com*

I already changed my SIG hyperlink and it is working.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I'll be glad to stockpile some of those tubes for you if you're running out of space 

I picked up an old copy of Dan Torres' book "Inside Tube Amps" that I've been keeping near my favorite reading chair. I read an interesting argument for a balanced phase inverter and output section. 

First, let me say that Dan Torres knows his stuff - I'm not taking any credit away from his vast knowledge of tube amp circuits. However, I think his idea of good tone is quite different from mine. I have played Torres-modded amps and even tried installing a couple myself. He seems to take a very hi-fi approach to his circuit mods, which usually involve taking some of the best-sounding Fender amps ever made and making them bright, thin and sterile-sounding. I mean, nobody buys a Fender Champ looking for more clean headroom.

Anyway, his argument for a balanced driver/output section is that a push-pull amp is essentially like a humbucker pickup. The two signals that are out-of-phase with each other remove the hum and noise from an amp. He uses words like "imperative" when describing a balanced circuit, and there are several pages of his book that describe ways to "balance" your driver tube and power tubes. I mean, I'll roll tubes and maybe clip a cap out of the circuit to see if I like the change, but adding 1K resistors in series until you have a perfectly balanced PI just doesn't do anything for me.

I'm not able to see the practicality of his statements. They look good on paper but like I said, his mods seem to make an amp much less musical, at least in my opinion. My last run-in with a Torres mod was about 7 years ago. I ordered his little kit and managed to turn a SF Champ into a nasty sounding mess. All traces of that warm tube tone that people buy Champs for were gone. On the plus side, his mods are just as easy to reverse as they are to install.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yep, you nailed it. Some of his stuff seems to be more "by the book" and towards hi-fi in some ways. Yet he tells you about derating an OT to get more magic saturation. His views are an interesting read and the book is good reference.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, Marshall tried the "HiFi" approach in amp design with the Major and its ultra linear circuit. It was a very difficult amp to use and was really only good for clean sound. You couldn't put any sort of boost in front of it or it would crap out.

With that in mind, anyone who tries to "HiFi" a guitar amp is a douchebag. I'll stick to my beliefs that most guitar amps are built with 10 percent component tolerances. The output transformer isn't perfectly balanced and the power tubes, even though they are matched, are not identical. There have been attempts where a guitar amp was tweaked until the signal was "almost" balanced on the O scope. The tone of the amp sounded like cardboard. It's been proven that a unbalanced PI provides a fatter tone with more even order harmonics. 

Believe me, I've read various articles pertaining to this and I am going with the majority consensus that you don't need a balanced PI tube. I mean think about it. You have no way of telling which way the signal is out of balance. Is it the positive signal or the negative signal? 

The final argument I present is that when someone buys a guitar amp, they are more than happy with how it sounds. No need to spend money trying to monkey fuck the phase inverter circuit to get it balanced. No one does that.

The only people that use a balanced PI tube are those who go to places like Eurotubes that insist that you need a balanced PI tube. I've noticed that many of the independent tube sellers are no longer promoting balanced PI tubes, but they still offer them at an additional charge.

I don't have the rep that Torres has, but in America, I still have the right to my own opinion.


----------



## mickeydg5

You do not have to preach to me. 
Keep on truckin.

For instance, there is a thread discussing an EL84-20/20. Both OT's measure at about 206 and 188 ohms respectively on the two sides of the primary push-pull. That is 8% out in resistance. Was this done on purpose or is it luck of the draw. Anyway it is an unbalance.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah Marty, I agree with you completely. I just think that it's interesting with someone with Dan Torres' reputation really just doesn't seem to "get it". I've ran just about every variety and flavor of 12AX7 as a phase inverter tube. I even have a handful of NOS RCA 12DW7's and a few GE 7247's that I've tried. Usually the tubes that significantly altered the tone didn't change it for the better. The only preference I came away with was for a _*hot*_ 12AX7 phase inverter. A really strong Raytheon black plate (even a JRP) is probably my favorite. I've been known to run a strong Mullard or Amperex or even a Telefunken there as well. It's no secret that a lot of that sweet tube distortion you hear is coming from the PI tube. I don't think it's a waste to invest a good tube in that spot.

The 12DW7 was very interesting as a PI tube. It sounded like two completely different amps side-by-side. The 12AU7 side is very clean and not nearly as loud as the 12AX7 side, which has a good bit of crunch to it. In a blindfold test, it would sound more like two amps instead of one. 

Honestly though, I can't hear even a miniscule difference between a balanced or an unbalanced 12AX7. I still think you have to try different ones in _each individual amp_ until you find what works for it. What about a mismatched driver tube in a mismatched circuit that are opposite of each other? For example; on a 100% scale, triode 1 of your 12AX7 driver tests at 80% and the other triode tests at 100%. Now, you use that tube as your phase inverter but your amp is providing a 100% signal to triode 1 and only 80% of that signal to triode 2. Is the net result that your circuit is now balanced? Or maybe the circuit is balanced but your pair of EL34's is mismatched opposite of the driver tube mismatch. I guess what I'm trying to understand is that since there are several ways from the driver tube to the power tubes to have a mismatch, is a mismatch at one point going to sound different than a mismatch at another point in the signal path, and could you actually be making your amp sound cleaner if by accident you end up with an opposite mismatch like I so un-eloquently described?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as you stated, the areas that can be unbalanced are the amp circuit itself, the phase inverter tube, the power tubes and the output transformer. As I said, people have tweaked these parameters to make a "balanced" amp and the net result wasn't desirable.

Also, I have sold a lot of unbalanced PI tubes. I sometimes wonder if some of these tubes actually balanced out the amp. It's possible.

I do not think it matters where the imbalance is in the amp system. In other words, an unbalanced OPT is not going to make the amp sound different than the effect of an unbalanced PI tube. I also think that there is a pretty wide margin for the imbalance before someone's ears can actually hear a difference.

I know that you have experienced the following. I have put an unbalanced tube in V1 and it really isn't noticeable sound wise. Usually in an older Marshall, V1A and B are both gain stages. An imbalanced tube works just fine. In an amp like a DSL/TSL, V1A is the first gain stage for the clean channel and V1B is the first gain stage for the crunch/lead channel. Again, an imbalanced tube will work fine.

In testing all the tubes I have, most of my inventory is within 1 or 2 points of both triodes. A lot of them are balanced. This doesn't mean the balanced one is better.

And I think we are all in agreement that if a balanced amp was better, "every amp manufacturer" would be making balanced amps. It's just not the case.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Pretty quiet around here. I did an inventory and realized I had more ribbed Tele's than I thought. Of course, this was "after" I bought six of them.

I got all 27 Sylvania's in. Man, they look new. Some were stupid high gain. I don't even want to publish the test scores. 

Hopefully the rest of the tubes I bought will push the 707 needle to the right.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am going to guess about 48.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not even close. Try 70!


----------



## mickeydg5

Wow, very high!
The highest I can recall was about 2.5 times the minimum. Those are hitting 3.1 plus.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Not even close. Try 70!



Am I missing something, or are you saying that these tubes tested that high in a 707??? I've had some Sylvies that pushed 70+ on the TV-7, but that's stupid-high for a B&K score.


----------



## MM54

70? On the 707? :eek2:


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## MartyStrat54

Well I wouldn't try to shit you fellars. I had some in the 50's, 60's and one tested 71/35.

Now most of them were above 35 and up to the mid 40's.

Sylvania's IME have always been high gain and some are crazy high gain.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I will agree that they are usually high-gain, at least the long-plate ones with green print, and most of the yellow print ones I've had have been gainy as well. High-gain Sylvanias are one of my all-time favorite PI tubes in a Marshall. They make a great tube for a gain stage in a Fender, too. I got some short plate Sylvanias out of a Silvertone amp. They all consistently tested at around 80-90% and reminded me of an RCA tone-wise.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> anyone who tries to "HiFi" a guitar amp is a douchebag.



Now that's a quote.  Fukn' love it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a Tektronix 502 dual beam O-scope at the local Goodwill tonight. I haven't ran anything thru the tester yet, but I think I have scavenged the best stuff out of the scope. I got two Holland GZ34's, four Telefunken ECC81/12AT7, four ECC88/6922 (2 Tele and 2 Amperex) and a Mullard 12AU7 that I'll probably put back in the scope. I paid $30 for it, and I can probably sell it to a guy I know who will give me at least $30 for it, minus the tubes I took out. Free glass!  

There are several 6AU6, 6AN8, and 12B4A and a few more oddballs but nothing worth much.

I'm looking forward to trying the Telefunken ECC81's in my Marshall JMP1C.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's the beauty of finding old test equipment. You never know what you will find. Most high grade test equipment used the best tubes on the market. (Most have a painted tip denoting extra testing.)

When I was in the Air Force, almost all of my equipment was tube. All this equipment had power supplies. Most used the GZ34 or 5U4G. Our equipment used 12AU7's, 12AT7's, 12AX7's, 6L6GC's, 6550's and so on. Over in Japan, they had a separate room for tube inventory. There was approximately 2,000 tube type devices in that intelligence building.

I never seem to have much luck finding old tube equipped devices, but I know that quite a bit of German technology made its way over to America in the 50's. Lots of Telefunken, Valvo and S & H tubes were used.

But nothing beats an old organ. These are getting far and few nowadays. A buddy of mine has 21 Black Plate RCA's (1959) on EBAY and the bid is at $400+. He told me that he isn't finding many organs anymore. I had asked him about Raytheon Black Plates and he just said, "Scarce."

I've said this before. Things are going to have to change at some point. We are dealing with a nonsustaining product. When they are gone, they are gone. 

Do you guys remember when this thread first started I posted up about the guy that won an auction at the GM test facility in Arizona? He won 4,000+ RCA NIB 12AX7's that were specially tested for lab equipment. I think he paid like $600 for the tubes. Do you remember I did a follow up with him? He sold all the tubes on EBAY for around $120,000 and he told me he bought an Italian sports car. Now that was a find. One of the greatest moments of any tube hound.

Yes, test equipment can be a source for tubes, but so can the building the equipment was in. I still feel there are some warehouses and vacant business buildings that have new tubes just sitting there.

I wish I just knew where they were.


----------



## RiverRatt

Would the scope itself be worth more than the tubes, provided it was working? I doubt if it's anywhere near calibrated if it does work. It has a lot of multi-cap cans, and they are 50 years old.


----------



## MM54

I intend to fully rebuild my Sencor 'scope this summer, it's 40 (or maybe 50) years old and needs some internal cleaning and a metric ton of caps replaced. It should be a good challenge and an enjoyable project.

Calibration, you say? I happen to have access to a ton of very very nice lab equipment at school I can calibrate it on when I'm done :cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't think I would invest time and money in outdated test equipment. There's no market for it and the equipment is usually very limited in what it can do. 

There are thousands of five year old O-scopes for sale just on EBAY for a reasonable amount and they can do much more and are a lot accurate and reliable.

So no, gut the tubes and dump the thing to someone who wants it and will probably never fix it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well all the Black Plates arrived today. They all test great with a low of 29 and a high of 35. Nice tubes.

My buddy with the 21 Black Plate RCA's is up to $425 with a day and a half to go. That is still a pretty good price at $20.24 per tube. I guess if I had a favorite RCA it would be this one with the square getter. If I had money in my tube buying fund, I'd be on them, but I'm out of investment cash.


----------



## RiverRatt

I never really liked the RCA 12AX7 tube after they went to the short, gray plates with the flat-sided micas. Almost every one of those short-plate RCA's that I find is weak or marginal at best. The black plates are pretty good, but not one of my favorites. It's really incredible that RCA made some of the best power tubes on the planet, but the preamp tubes don't seem to follow suit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I've said over and over that a Raytheon Black Plate is way better than an RCA BP.

Funny thing about RCA, they developed the 12AX7 and then they were never that great at making them. Of course there are people out there that think RCA is the best.

It is funny how everyone switched from long plates to shorter plates for more reliability and less squeal. I'm mean it was like overnight and the long plates were done.

Good power tubes though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay Alan, I got a job for you to do. I used to be a pretty good cartoonist, but that was like 43 years ago. Here is my rough draft for my Tee Shirt design. I already have the lettering done. All I need is to get this image polished up. 

I used Mickey's helmet and I would like the guitar body to be more like a BC Rich Warlock with a pointed headstock. The hand would be gripping the whammy bar and strings. The other hand needs to show him raising up the thunderbolt (in defiance).

Instead of tee shirt sleeves, maybe a short sleeve warrior design (shoulder guards)?

What about a neck line so the tube dude's top garment can be green and yellow like the front (of shirt) letters?

M/M logo on chest.

"12AX7" centered on bottom of tube.

Wider belt.

I can go with multiple colors, but I'd like to go four colors plus black.

Design layout here: URL sent to you. I decided to keep this private so no one could tamper with it. I'll PM it to you.

Rough draft of Martimus Maximus tube dude. Image going on back of Tee shirt.





Okay, the link works to the Tee Shirt designer, so you can click on the "Back Image" and see where the tube dude will go.


----------



## solarburn

Awesome.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Awesome.


----------



## MartyStrat54

My buddy did alright.

21 RCA 12AX7 Long Black Plate Tubes w Square Getters | eBay


----------



## gameshound

Just paid 75+ reasonable shipping for a nice lot of European Glass!!
Pristine tubes...wicked labels,,,awesome test results...good ones for the collection...Nice to know there are still decent deals out there once and awhile...good sellers with a quality product...lot of gambling in this tube business
Also had an australian guy send me a wrong tube..by mistake..a 12au7 longplate insted of 12ax7..just got a message saying he will replace it with a pair of brimars...some seriously above and beyond customer service in that one....I just bid on a couple more of his auctions!!!
Has been great dealing with with you guys on here as well//lotsa straight up people looking to help each other out!!!

REALLY HAPPY TO BE A MEMEBER OF THIS FORUM!!!


----------



## mickeydg5

You lucky bastard!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I had just spent $75.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

Anyone around?

We need the dancing tubes dudes. "Live from Las Vegas!"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Had some trouble with my TSL602. It didn't sound right, so I checked the bias. Way high and causing a slight red plate on the expensive Mullard xF2's. Reset the bias and all is good, but I haven't a clue as to why this occurred.


----------



## JohnDanese

So in my Temporary apartment until I have the house rebuilt. (as most of ya know: house fire). Now going from a single home with the basement studio full of MONSTER equipment to an apartment really is different. I just haven't even picked up my axe too much as there are always 8million things that have to be done to get the new house build up and runnin.

Well my Dean Markley Combo still had fire smell so I tore her down real good and scrubbed her up. Looks new. Odor gone! While apart I did snap a shot or two of the tube on board. This is a pretty old amp Late 80's??? So the tube has some years but man does it sound great!

Thoughts on this glass? 

Have a great night all!


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## mickeydg5

If I remember right DSLs have problems with boards.
What about the TSLs?


----------



## MM54

I'm here, Marty.

Weird how the bias drifts, huh? I went about 2 years without playing my 4500, a couple months back I went to fire it up and checked the bias - it had gone from around 65% to nearly 85% - would have been bad if I hadn't checked it (it already runs the EH 6CA7s fairly hard*).

John - I remember reading in another thread about the fire; that's terrible. I take it insurance is coming through if you've began the rebuild?

*The 4500 is not as hard on them however as the custom 100W head I build a while ago, the 900 puts about 460V on them, while the 100W'er will wobble between 495 and 505VDC at the plates depending on the wall voltage of the day. It's over spec for the tube (and the screen) but I've kept a close watch and never had trouble with them, I really do like the EH 6CA7s.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got home from work. My head hurts and it's too damned hot in here. The air is so full of pollen that my eyes feel like they have been sandpapered. It's hard to get excited about tubes under these conditions. I might feel like some conversation after I get another IPA or two down.


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## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I only turned the TSL on a couple of times since I have been here to charge the caps. I never played it. I'm thinking the bouncing moving truck from KC to OK might be to blame. 

I'm just glad that when I went to play that I knew it sounded like ass. Sure enough, a slight red plate. Reset the bias and it is fine now.

I will keep an eye on it though.


----------



## mickeydg5

John
I read about the fire situation. I hope everything gets handled quickly and life can get back to normal soon.

I really did not know what to say. Something like that might make me go crazy. Well maybe not, but you know what I mean.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I felt like shit when I found out that the JTM600 I traded the guy for the Bassman head had a bad output transformer. I stopped in his shop and he showed me the big black burn mark where some wire and paper got really hot. I offered to get him a transformer and he wouldn't do it. He said it was his amp; he heard it, played through it and took it in. I need to go buy something from him to even up the score. He has one of those old 1970's Electra guitars that's made sort of like a Telecaster. It's black with a tinted maple neck, weighs almost as much as a Les Paul, and the hardware is all brass, including the nut. It's a badass little guitar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember when those Electra's were all over the pages of Guitar Magazine. I borrowed one from a friend and it was a Les Paul copy. IIRC, it was a pretty nice player. Peter Frampton and Leslie West did wonders for the brand and most models had the MPC modules. I think you could put up to three modules in the guitar.






The Electra Page

Too bad about the OPT, but since it was the JTM I'm not surprised. When you got it, I was wondering if something would crap out on you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thought I would post so that this thread doesn't end up in the sewer. 

I'm glad they arrested that 19 year-old terrorist. He came close to getting dead like his older brother.

Pretty amazing how fast they were able to pick them two out using various surveillance cameras. (Big Brother truly is watching you.) 

I'll be pissed if they don't put the death penalty on him. Timothy McVeigh got it and I think all terrorists that kill should get it.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was about to post and ask if you had another 83 rectifier tube. The B&K 700 I picked up a few weeks ago didn't have a rectifier tube in it, and all I had was a burned-out 83 so I couldn't figure out how to test it. So, I got on the web and figured out how to make an 83 solid-state replacement, wired it up in an old 83 tube base and it works fine. I thought the meter was dead, but it works. It tested a 6V6GT almost exactly to the same percentage as my TV-7. I can't get the heaters to work on the 12AX7 socket though. It has a socket-saver on it so I really need to check all that out before I panic. I hope it's a bad socket and not a bad 12.6v tap.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeah, its sad.
I saw The Day The Earth Stood Still, the remake, again today. I can understand its adaptation and version. I have always been taught not to judge or wish ill will but to me it is natural. Honestly anything that impairs with no plausible reason should be eradicated.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I was about to post and ask if you had another 83 rectifier tube. The B&K 700 I picked up a few weeks ago didn't have a rectifier tube in it, and all I had was a burned-out 83 so I couldn't figure out how to test it. So, I got on the web and figured out how to make an 83 solid-state replacement, wired it up in an old 83 tube base and it works fine. I thought the meter was dead, but it works. It tested a 6V6GT almost exactly to the same percentage as my TV-7. I can't get the heaters to work on the 12AX7 socket though. It has a socket-saver on it so I really need to check all that out before I panic. I hope it's a bad socket and not a bad 12.6v tap.


Chances are that its a bad contact or connection. It maybe in the socket saver but most likley a switch.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm glad that I don't feel the need to buy several tube testers. One is enough for me.

I know guys that will test a tube on one tester and if it tests low or bad, they take it over to another tester as if it will miraculously test good. Oh well.

That's why I went through three 707's. The first was an original series with a annealed copper face plate. It also had a scribed 83 tube in it that was old. I sold it to a guy in Hong Kong for $65. The sockets on this tester were worn out. I had to spread the pins on a 12AX7 to get it to test and it wouldn't do it all of the time. 

The second tester was in better condition, but the 12AX7 socket was loose on it. I finally got a chance to buy an early 70's version of the 707. All the sockets were good and I had this one refurbished and calibrated. Its been a great, reliable unit.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have several testers but I am a tinkerer. I will collect some objects; usually for reference, comparison and judgement sake.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Its just if you have one good tester, it will tell you if your tubes are good or bad.

Of course, you can own an emissions tester and every tube will read 120 on an 0 to 120 scale.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know Marty.
I have been seeing other preamp threads pop up. I don't know why some cannot just post here. I did notice you had gotten an Attaboy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah one guy started a thread and he would have been better off just asking his question here. I like the excuse that the Preamp Thread "Is Too Big." (Hence my SIG I had for a long time that said the same thing).

Fact is, you don't need to read the whole blooming thread to try and find an answer. You just need to ask and it will get answered in a timely manner.


----------



## solarburn

Good to have it show up in other places from time to time.
Gets the word out if u know what I'm saying. Peeps need to know what's good and where to get from a trusted source.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah one guy started a thread and he would have been better off just asking his question here. I like the excuse that the Preamp Thread "Is Too Big." (Hence my SIG I had for a long time that said the same thing).
> 
> Fact is, you don't need to read the whole blooming thread to try and find an answer. You just need to ask and it will get answered in a timely manner.


Just to mention, any user can use the "Search this Thread" function for any topic within. The searches can be helpful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some of these people don't know what the User control panel is, let alone the search function.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, a question for you guys. There's a guy here locally who has an incredible Gibson Les Paul Studio Gem series guitar. He's asking $800 for it, which is a hell of a deal as these usually go for $1,200+ on eBay. To come up with the money, I'd have to sell my Deluxe Reverb RI or my Marshall 50th Anniversary JMP-1C.

I know this is way off topic but I trust you guys here more than the idiot responses I'd get in the Guitar forum. I'd really like to have a Les Paul again, but I don't know if it's worth losing either one of my amps for. They only made the Gem series from 1996 to 1998. Dude says this one has Gibson 57 classics, which makes me think it may not be original. I don't recall ever seeing one with factory humbuckers. I'm going to go check out the LP and also an SG he has. I'll know more by tomorrow night.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't think I've introduced you guys to my 1954 Strat yet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have already discussed this with you. If you sell your amps, what are you going to use? I don't own a Les Paul and I am not freaking out about it. I don't want one. If I wanted a Les Paul it would look like this.











Sounds like a Les Paul in a Telecaster body.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I posted that guitar over in the LP vs Tele thread. I think it freaked some people out. This came out in 2007. Try finding one now. Maple top on mahogany body. Set mahogany neck with an Ibanez like radius (fast). Seymore Duncan pickups. 

This will do everything except a Tele sound.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I would take the Duncan's out and put in a wicked set of humbuckers.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blame it on GAS. This particular Les Paul has some collector's value already. The guy is selling it about $400 below market. If the humbucker job is factory, it's even more rare.


----------



## mickeydg5

The spalted Fender Tele looks nice.

The Studio Gems came stock with P90s from what I understand. I noticed an average of $700-$800 on them. A mint or new condition one might sell for a few hundred more.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've always wanted a spalted maple guitar. The guy who does some of the Marshall demo clips uses a spalted LAG Imperator. Beautiful guitar.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'd love to find that Tele used. If any of you guys run across one, let me know.

I almost bought a reissue Tele with dual humbuckers, but it wasn't the guitar that the spalted is. Better neck and a Pearly Gate in the bridge.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Discontinued.



> A Tele with a set neck and Seymour Duncans!
> 
> This Custom Telecaster features a set neck and a carved Spalted Maple top on a slim, bound, mahogany body. Seymour Duncan pickups with push/pull coil splitting lets you choose between fat humbucker tone and sparkling single coil.
> 
> Fender has really come through for fans of natural finish guitars with stunning wood grain. This gorgeous axe has plenty of power and sound options to back up its sexy looks.
> Features
> 
> Body: Mahogany/ bound top
> Neck: 1-Piece Mahogany, slim"C" Shape, bound, set (Polyurethane Finish)
> Fingerboard: Rosewood, 15.75" Radius
> Frets: 22-Jumbo
> Scale Length: 25.5"
> Nut: 1.625" (42 mm)
> Hardware: Chrome
> Machine Heads: Standard Style Tuning Machines
> Bridge: Hardtail
> Pickguard: None
> Pickups: 1 Seymour Duncan® SHPGP-1B Pearly Gates Plus Pickup (Bridge), 1 Seymour Duncan® SH-1N RP '59 Reverse Polarity Pickup (Neck )
> Pickup Switching: 3-Position Toggle, Position 1. Bridge Pickup, Position 2. Bridge and Neck Pickup, Position 3. Neck Pickup
> Controls: Master Volume, Master Tone/ coil splitting
> Strings: Fender Super 250L, Nickel Plated Steel, (.009 to .042), p/n 073-0250-003



Looks like you should be able to coax some single coil Tele sounds out of this guitar afterall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I did some extensive searching and I found one. Should be able to pick it up for $475 plus shipping. They retailed at the big music stores for around $800. List was like $1375.

JOE-Guess what, just like the 2004 Gold Top Tele, this one is made in Korea as well. Looks like all the cool Fender guitars are made in Korea.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well The deal took a dump. Flaky seller. Now he says he only wants to deal locally for cash. Didn't want to go to the trouble to ship it. He lives in Iowa...good luck.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Where in Iowa?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ames.

Fender Custom Spalted Maple HH Telecaster

Go for it. I bet you could get it for $450.


----------



## 66 galaxie

I cant afford to pay attention right now 
I live right on the Iowa border, figured if it was close enough I could pick it up for you and ship it. 
Ames is about 4 or 5 hours though.


----------



## johnfv

66 galaxie said:


> I cant afford to pay attention right now  ...


good one


----------



## MartyStrat54

66 galaxie said:


> I live right on the Iowa border, figured if it was close enough I could pick it up for you and ship it.
> Ames is about 4 or 5 hours though.



Thanks for the thought. That would have been cool. 

I will contact the seller again and see if he actually lives in Ames. He might just be using the Ames Craig List.


----------



## 66 galaxie

Let me know...


----------



## MartyStrat54

He must not want to sell it too bad. He did not respond to my email. He's a flake.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 days to get a response from some people. That's just part of the experience. In a similar vein, if you finally do manage to sell something on Craigslist after a week or two, at least one or two people will inquire about it before you have time to take it down.


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> I don't think I've introduced you guys to my 1954 Strat yet.



Damn thats beautiful...oh and the one you posted Marty also looks amazing


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, I'm rather attached to it myself. I picked up a Les Paul Studio today in Flip Flop Teal and got the guy to throw in a Class 5 head! Now, somebody buy that damned 50th Anniversary JMP in the Classifieds before my wife shoots me!!!

Seriously, I need to move some stuff. If any of you are looking for tube bargains, now is the time to hit me up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So you got the Les Paul. 

I hope it is like Rolaids and relieves that GAS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked for your ad but didn't see it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wait? What?

:Ohno::Ohno::Ohno::Ohno:


----------



## solarburn

HOLY CHEESEY SHREDDING BATMAN!

18K's gonna call for everybody to salute with a shot of whickey! Or whatever you favor.

Marty you do have Crown for me don't you...?LOL

Belly up Boyz!

BELCH!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I always have a bottle of Crown in the house for emergency use. I never know who may pop in. If you were here, we would go for a drink and maybe get to look at some hotties.

We might even find some hot 40 year old Heather Locklear lookalikes to pick up.

Only 1,999 more post before I hit 20K.


----------



## RiverRatt

All I got is red wine and IPA. I started on the wine, so I'd better ride that horse. Congrats Marty!

I got on here to post about an eBay deal gone sour. I auctioned off a pristine Mullard mC1, tested as-new, 100% print intact, shield logo, the REAL DEAL. This Hong Kong asshole who bought it just filed a buyer's complaint with eBay against me because it's been two weeks since I mailed the tube and he still hasn't gotten it. Yep, my PayPal account is frozen, I have no access to my money, and I have to put the money back in the bank that I just spent on that Les Paul! I'm so fucking mad I can't think straight. I'm going to go abuse a guitar and an amp or two.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> I always have a bottle of Crown in the house for emergency use...


Reminds me of one of my favorite WC Fields quotes:
"I always keep a supply of stimulant handy in case I see a snake--which I also keep handy" 

Cheers gentlemen!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you recall, I did a lot of EBAY tube buying on 4-7-2013. Everyone shipped promptly except this one guy that I bought two Bugle Boys from. His auction stated that he had up till the 24th to deliver the tubes. I thought this was really odd. Yesterday, I started to contact him and I selected the "Item Not Received" option. It said if the item did not arrive by 4-26, I should contact him. Well the tubes did not arrive today, so I filed a complaint against him. I had the option to ask for a full refund, which I did. (I have so many Amperex anyway.) I should have known this guy was going to be trouble.

Alan-I don't know why they froze your PayPal account without contacting you first and hearing what you had to say. This is why I do not sell to overseas buyers. Even when I say, "Lower 48 states only," I still get some duff from Hong Kong wanting me to tell them how much the shipping would be.

I hope it gets resolved quickly.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> All I got is red wine and IPA. I started on the wine, so I'd better ride that horse. Congrats Marty!
> 
> I got on here to post about an eBay deal gone sour. I auctioned off a pristine Mullard mC1, tested as-new, 100% print intact, shield logo, the REAL DEAL. This Hong Kong asshole who bought it just filed a buyer's complaint with eBay against me because it's been two weeks since I mailed the tube and he still hasn't gotten it. Yep, my PayPal account is frozen, I have no access to my money, and I have to put the money back in the bank that I just spent on that Les Paul! I'm so fucking mad I can't think straight. I'm going to go abuse a guitar and an amp or two.



That sux! What a frack'n hassle for you.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know you guys sell and buy tubes from time to time. This guy thinks it should have arrived in 7 to 10 days. I don't think I've ever had a package from China that arrived in much less than 3 weeks. I feel like this guy is being unreasonable. As soon as he paid for the auction, he sent me at least one message a day until I shipped it. I knew he was going to be trouble. Now I'm out a nice Mullard and it looks like around $150, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't follow you. If the buyer gets the tube, why would you be out $150?


----------



## Lowlife

Maybe he is claiming it will never get there...get the tube AND the money back


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ah so...I screwy a Merican.

If I can't track it, I don't sell there.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was wondering about that. Can't you get tracking to a foriegn country?

Was there any tracking on that mC1? :eek2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tracking isn't available for many overseas destinations. Many packages need a declarations form filled out that has the "To" and "From" info. It also has options for the sender if the package is undeliverable.


----------



## mickeydg5

Eek, troublesome.
I like what you said, no tracky no sendy.


----------



## RiverRatt

Actually, you can track using the customs receipt number. It shows the package leaving Miami on April 15, and that's the last entry. Of course this house of cards falls apart the first time some lazy foreign asshole doesn't update the info.


----------



## mickeydg5

Lazy foreign?
Hell, that happens in the US with USPS.
I was sad to say that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why would it be leaving from Florida, instead of the West Coast?


----------



## RiverRatt

Who knows? Maybe that's why it's not been delivered yet. Slow boat to China.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How did you package it? What kind of box? Priority Box?

You didn't use a small box did you? I wouldn't have gone any smaller than the 6 x 6 x 7 box that the USPS has.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, it was a small box. I didn't know that mattered.


----------



## mickeydg5

Small boxes can get lost more easily.
I ordered a special adjustable centertap high wattage resistor a while back. The company packaged it in a small box. Needless to say it got lost. I reported it to the distributor and they sent another one since they could not locate it right away either. The contact I had spoken to was quite nice and she followed up with progress. It was found under a postal conveyor belt system, must have fallen through. Guess what it showed up in the mail less than 2 weeks later. I got two for the price of one in my case. I lucked out, but still I had to wait for the other to reship. If I remember correctly it was around $18 for the part plus shipping.


----------



## solarburn

Hey Marty musician's friend has the GT Tele's. I got a mag from them in the mail and saw they had them.

Did you already see they did?

Fender FSR Custom Telecaster HH Electric Guitar with DiMarzio Pickups | Musician's Friend


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a pretty sweet looking Tele. I thought Marty was looking for the spalted maple one?

Quick question: Any of you guys have a couple of humbuckers lying around in your parts bin? I have a project in the works and I don't know if it's going to work out or not. Apparently I've used all my decent AlNiCo pickups and now everything I have is testing at 15k or higher. I'd love to find a couple of AlNiCo in the 7.5k to 9k range. 4-conductor wiring would be good, too. I'm not looking for expensive pickups either. Some old Ibanez pulls or something similar would be perfect as long as there's enough lead left to solder a wire to. I'd like to do a trade for some tubes. My funds are low right now.


----------



## mott555

I think I have a stock humbucker for an Epi SG somewhere, I think it's a cheaper-model Burstbucker, forget whether it was neck or bridge. If you're interested I can dig it out.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> That's a pretty sweet looking Tele. I thought Marty was looking for the spalted maple one?
> 
> Quick question: Any of you guys have a couple of humbuckers lying around in your parts bin? I have a project in the works and I don't know if it's going to work out or not. Apparently I've used all my decent AlNiCo pickups and now everything I have is testing at 15k or higher. I'd love to find a couple of AlNiCo in the 7.5k to 9k range. 4-conductor wiring would be good, too. I'm not looking for expensive pickups either. Some old Ibanez pulls or something similar would be perfect as long as there's enough lead left to solder a wire to. I'd like to do a trade for some tubes. My funds are low right now.



Well I didn't think Fender was doing the Gold Tops with Super D's any more and I know Marty likes them. Since they are then a used one can pop up. I love mine. Give a Les Paul a run for there money.


----------



## RiverRatt

It may give a Les Paul a run for its money, but I know who's going to be the first horse to the trough. 

I need to get some pics of my new one. It may not be as pretty as a 'burst, but it is unique and has a neck that feels like the 1970's Les Pauls that I grew up with. The tone ain't bad, either.


----------



## RiverRatt

mott555 said:


> I think I have a stock humbucker for an Epi SG somewhere, I think it's a cheaper-model Burstbucker, forget whether it was neck or bridge. If you're interested I can dig it out.



If it's an AlNiCo, then yes I'm definitely interested.


----------



## mott555

RiverRatt said:


> If it's an AlNiCo, then yes I'm definitely interested.



I have no idea what it is lol. But I'll dig it out and take a look.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Thanks for the info. That's very tempting. Is this a Korean guitar? If so, it is now $300 more than the 2004 run. Bummer.

Last summer I almost bought a 62 reissue with HB's, but they weren't Super D's.

I'll do some more checking into the GT.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-Thanks for the info. That's very tempting. Is this a Korean guitar? If so, it is now $300 more than the 2004 run. Bummer.
> 
> Last summer I almost bought a 62 reissue with HB's, but they weren't Super D's.
> 
> I'll do some more checking into the GT.



Man I'm not sure where they are made yet. Ill try find out. Hopefully some used ones will hit the market over the next couple years and the price will be right. I like that they stuck with the Super D's. I like em'.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've never used a Super D in the neck. Does it get real warm in that slot?


----------



## MM54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never used a Super D in the neck. Does it get real warm in that slot?



Please read this completely out of context.

You're welcome.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never used a Super D in the neck. Does it get real warm in that slot?



Yes. Pretty clear too considering the bass in them. There are neck pups I like a bit better but IMO it sounds good so far with any blues/rock stuff. I don't feel I needed to pop it out for something else any time soon. 

Now on my EC-1000 I have the Super D and Paf Joe for the neck. This coming payday ill have them installed. We'll see if I get that hollower, rounder character with a bit of bite. I think the Super D in the neck misses some bite. I thought it would be muddy but so far I don't find that an issue. I will say I don't like both pups mixed. Seems to negate what I like out of each separate.LOL I don't think I ever use middle setting on any of my Humbucking guitars. Jus don't like that tone much.


----------



## solarburn

> I've never used a Super D in the neck. Does it get real warm in that slot?
> Like






MM54 said:


> Please read this completely out of context.
> 
> You're welcome.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well at least we are keeping this thread from going to the bottom of the pile. LOL.

And isn't this what they do "all the time" over at the 6100 thread?

JOE-I probably would change out the Super D in the neck for something like an Air Norton. That is a very versatile neck pickup and offers a different flavor in that slot. There are so many HB's out there to choose from, it's damn hard to make a decision. No wonder so many guys ask about pickups here on the forum. 

Keith (LuredMaul) is probably the top DiMarzio man here on this forum and he really helped me a lot in picking my pickups for the Strat Deluxe and the Explorer. In doing research, I found out that the Air Norton/Air Zone is a popular pairing and I have to agree. My Explorer is very similar to a Les Paul (maple top/mahogany body with mahogany set neck). That is why I recommend this setup for Les Paul players who do hot blues and classic rock.

I used a Super D from 1975 until 1990 and then my Les Paul was stolen. What I currently play does not really warrant a Super D. 

Decisions, decisions.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh and I sold my American Tele. It was a beautiful guitar (Blizzard Pearl), but I really wasn't into the sound it made. I had that guitar shipped from Musician's Friend and I never played before I paid.

I am looking to see what is available used. If I can find a Tele HB that I like for cheap, I can afford to put in different pickups.

Then I have to ask, "Do I really need another guitar?"


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well at least we are keeping this thread from going to the bottom of the pile. LOL.
> 
> And isn't this what they do "all the time" over at the 6100 thread?
> 
> JOE-I probably would change out the Super D in the neck for something like an Air Norton. That is a very versatile neck pickup and offers a different flavor in that slot. There are so many HB's out there to choose from, it's damn hard to make a decision. No wonder so many guys ask about pickups here on the forum.
> 
> Keith (LuredMaul) is probably the top DiMarzio man here on this forum and he really helped me a lot in picking my pickups for the Strat Deluxe and the Explorer. In doing research, I found out that the Air Norton/Air Zone is a popular pairing and I have to agree. My Explorer is very similar to a Les Paul (maple top/mahogany body with mahogany set neck). That is why I recommend this setup for Les Paul players who do hot blues and classic rock.
> 
> I used a Super D from 1975 until 1990 and then my Les Paul was stolen. What I currently play does not really warrant a Super D.
> 
> Decisions, decisions.



I think pups are the only thing I haven't rolled yet.LOL

I jus may have to try one of those Air Nortons on the Tele. I'm not gonna go crazy on pick up changes but I have some things in mind. I've got some A8 magnets I was thinking of using with certain lower output bridge offerings...when I find time and funds.


----------



## mott555

MartyStrat54 said:


> Then I have to ask, "Do I really need another guitar?"



Isn't the answer to that question always "Yes"?

I've been GAS'ing for a couple years now. I really want to get some Warmoth parts and put together a 24-fret Flying V with a floating Floyd Rose and a Super Distortion. Then either paint it black with lightning bolts (think of the album cover of "Ride the Lightning") or woodland camo.

Do I need it? Nn..er..nnn...nnn..yes! But I don't know why or what for. But yes!


----------



## JohnDanese

House Fire Update: Hey guys, thanks for all the well wishes! Old house is torn down, cleaned up. Meet with engineer today to certify the integrity of the foundation. Meet with Architect tonight to see plans he came up with. Hope to get building soon!

" I'm getting closer to my home"!


----------



## MartyStrat54

So what did your insurance company approve as the the cost of the loss?

You had a pretty big house and a lot of personal content.


----------



## JohnDanese

Foundation is good!! The cost to rebuild is 358,000 Marty. Of course there are other monies available in case. It's been pretty smooth so far. It helps that I am the insurance agent but I gotta say, Safeco has been real great!


----------



## MM54

Glad to hear you're getting things sorted out, John


----------



## JohnDanese

The contents are still being listed by me! Haha. The 358,000 is the house only. They already totaled out all my scheduled music equipment. The total reserve set aside is about 750k.


----------



## JohnDanese

Thanks Matt. I bought a new Hughes and Kettner switchblade combo to replace the head. It kicks ass! Of course being in an apartment, I bought a little Vox VT30. Nice little practice amp for very low volume. Great to be playing again!! Had out first band practice since The Fire on Monday night and it felt great. Usually rehearsal was at my house but the keyboard player stepped up.


----------



## RiverRatt

John, I see this happen every week. I'm in the newspaper business; just a local weekly rural county paper, and sometimes it seems that every week there's a horrible house fire. I know it's hard to see the silver lining in this cloud right now, but keep on with your music. I've had my gear completely wiped out by a lot less than a house fire and it's hard at first, but you always get back in the groove. Family and band mates are great for keeping you grounded. It sounds like you came out of it with the important stuff; and judging by your insurance claim you'll be picking up some very cool gear soon. Keep on rockin' dude. Sometimes it's the only thing that keeps us sane.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, what do you gurus know about a metal-base RCA JAN CRC 6080 tube?


----------



## MartyStrat54

They sub for a 6AS7. The 6080 is a ruggedized military grade 6AS7G. 

NOS tubes are dirt cheap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JohnDanese said:


> It helps that I am the insurance agent but I gotta say, Safeco has been real great!



Is that what you do? You're an insurance agent? Wow! What a stroke of luck. 

Make that fire list a long one.

PS-Where were you when my Les Paul got stolen?


----------



## JohnDanese

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is that what you do? You're an insurance agent? Wow! What a stroke of luck.
> 
> Make that fire list a long one.
> 
> PS-Where were you when my Les Paul got stolen?


 

Yeah, I own an agency. My own claim is gonna KILL my loss ratio this year! You don't know how much crap you had until you have to list it all!

Please follow my advice that I always give to my clients (and didn't do my self like a fool).

1) Buy a REAL good firebox for important papers.

2) Take a video of EVERYTHING you own by simply scanning your home, rooms, walls, clothes ect..... Then take the media OUT of the home ( a family member or friends house)!

Have a great day all! Jam on!


----------



## JohnDanese

OH! One more thing, SCHEDULE your equipment onto your insurance policy!! In a fire its covered but if its stolen (like Marty's Les Paul((BUMMER)), the policy may be limited! Scheduling the items will INSURE that you have Insurance!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, when I reported it to my insurance company, the first gal said they would cut a check for $2500. Then I get another gal calling and said a mistake had been made and that I would only get 10 percent ($250). Bummer.

It was because the guitar had been stolen from a bar and I was using it for "work."


----------



## RiverRatt

Weird tube time Marty. I've been checking in with my inner circle and it's netted me a handful of 12AX7's and a few odd power tubes and rectifiers. Last night, I got an RCA JAN CRC-6080 that looks like a KT88. Then today I was at another guy's house and he gave me a Tung-Sol JAN 5998 (ST bottle) and I found out that they are the same tube. If it said Western Electric 421A, it would have been nicer, but the Tung-Sol is still worth a little coin. 

It's an interesting design - you could have a single-tube push-pull amp with a decent amount of power. It's also used as a voltage regulator.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did an EBAY search for fun last night for the 6080 and NIB was pretty cheap.

They weren't that popular in common audio amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

Try the 5998 Tung Sol. Don't look at the smooth-sided envelopes, look for the BIG ST style tubes. Mine just has "JAN-5998 TUNG-SOL" printed on the base in green and a date code underneath that but I can't remember what it said. I wish I had a matched pair; it looks like they are worth some coin.

I was doing an inventory of tubes last night, and I ran across my box of Telefunken ECC88's. I only had four but they are all good, strong tubes. Then I looked in another box and thought "wow - I had 5 of these and didn't know it!" So I picked up the supposed 5th tube and it was a JJ ECC83. I didn't know that JJ so blatantly used the ECC88 design on their 12AX7/ECC83. The ECC88 is a high-frequency RF tube which makes even less sense to use it as a blueprint for a 12AX7 design. Has anybody noticed the similarity in these two tubes before? I borrowed a couple of pics from the internet.


----------



## mott555

My DSL is loaded up with those JJ ECC83S tubes. I haven't done any tube-swapping so I can't really comment, other than they work and it sounds like a Marshall.


----------



## mickeydg5

All I can say is that looks and operation are two different things.

A 12AX7 example would be comparing the constuction between the big ole plates of a Sylvania versus the minisclue plates of a RFT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was going to add that the Telefunken 88 looks a lot like an RFT.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> All I can say is that looks and operation are two different things.
> 
> A 12AX7 example would be comparing the constuction between the big ole plates of a Sylvania versus the minisclue plates of a RFT.



Yeah I know but still it's an odd shape and configuration to work with. I have a couple of JJ preamp tubes and they are nothing special so I've never paid much attention to them. It has to cost more to build a tube using that Telefunken frame grid design and I don't see any benefit to it unless it's the implied similarity to the Telefunken ECC803 and E88CC tubes. Maybe they are marketed to the hi-fi crowd. JJ has always been about 10% product and 90% snake oil.

I'm not sure I'm 100% with you on the plate construction though. I do believe that form influences tone to some degree, and I definitely hear a difference between an RFT and a Sylvie. Every Philips long plate 12AX7 that I've had has sounded significantly better than the short plate version.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I was going to add that the Telefunken 88 looks a lot like an RFT.



Not the 88... that's what I posted in that photo above. Most ECC81/12AT7 tubes look nearly identical to an RFT. I always look for the 3 holes on the filament side of the plate when I'm going through a bunch of tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Am I looking at something wrong? The 88 has short plates like the RFT.


----------



## mickeydg5

This RFT


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. The plates are different on the 88, but they are still short like the RFT.

I know they are not both the same type of tube, but the construction is similar.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's just the photo. I can't find a good photo on the Internet. It actually looks more like a Shuguang than an RFT. The plates are in 3 rounded segments each and there's a fairly large support in between the two triode sections on each side. It has that 2-tiered getter like the e88CC or ECC803S. Get out one of your gold pin Tele ECC803S and you'll see what I mean. I haven't ever noticed the similarity before. I haven't seen many JJ's or any Tele 803S tubes


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry, if I had any gold pin Tele 803's EBAY would have already seen them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Tell me about it. I wish I'd kept that mC1 Mullard. That was a collector-grade tube though. It seems like every time I get some really nice looking tubes I end up having to sell them. I keep the ones with no print left on them. They still sound just as good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the hifi geeks want pristine logos so when their friends come over they can "ooh and ahh" the tubes in the $20,000 amp.

There are plenty of tubes I wish I hadn't sold. My triple getter Sylvania 6CA7's went to a forum member in England. Have you ever seen a triple getter 6CA7? They are rare. I have a sweet pair of matched GE 6CA7's in my personal stash drawer. I have Sylvania dual getters in my 2204. Really sweet tubes. 

I had quite a few pre-1960 tubes that seem to have all been sold except for some RCA's and GE's. I do have some 1958-59 Bugle Boys.

About the most expensive 12AX7's I get are the Tele's, S and H, Valvo and Dario. I can't sell the expensive one's to my customers. No one wants a $100 V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I remember the triple-getter 6CA7s. I've only found one true 6CA7 and it was a GE. I hated selling that matched quad of Mullard xF2's that I found but I didn't even have an EL34 amp at the time. 

I can't complain - I have four really nice amps and they are all loaded with good NOS tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, I almost fucked up my xF2's. I was lucky that I knew my 602 sounded like ass when I tried it after I moved. (All my amps were in the bumpy U-Haul truck.) Sure enough, the bias was high. There was a slight red plate, but I think they survived it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Since we're talking short plates, check this one out. I'm not going to comment on the tone, I'm just not sure what these are. I've run across more than a few of these in newer equipment, and I think they were sold as Sylvania tubes here. The plates are so small that 1 staple per side is all they have.

Vintage ITT 12AX7 ECC83 Japan Stereo Tube 5487 025 18 | eBay

Here's another similar MIJ 12AX7, but I think this one was made by Matsushita. I put these in amps I sell to people I don't like.


----------



## johnfv

riverratt said:


> ...i put these in amps i sell to people i don't like...


lol


----------



## Lowlife

Haha, should I ever buy an amp from you, I'll make sure to check which tubes you tossed in it


----------



## RiverRatt

I wouldn't do that to you guys. I use decent tubes in the important positions. The little MIJ tubes are good construction, but they sound like ass as a tone tube.


----------



## MM54

CA10's sold to people I know (including forumites) are rumored to ship with NOS pre's 

Now amps to random people, those get CP.


----------



## chee16

Before I post my statement I want to make sure people don't get the wrong idea, I am not saying, nor do I have enough experience or know how or whatever to be able to say something is bad. The following are my opinions based off the use of my ears.

I really dislike the Tung Sol 12ax7 I have. I have read tons of good reviews and people really like them or they are solid tubes,etc. I have tried it in every position and it just doesn't do it for me. I have a preferred 7025 in v1 of my tsl602 and really like it, so v2 was the testing spot. The tungsol in v2 made everything punchy and harsh. So I put the Mesa spax7 (jj-ecc83s tested for high gain and low microphonics) back in v2 and bam, transparency with the right amount of warmth but still articulate (<--descriptive words are probably terrible, hopefully I am getting it across).

I am thinking the tungsol just doesn't go well with my amp, but what is everyone else experience with them?


----------



## RiverRatt

Give it a fair shake and try it in V1. Often it's the way V1 and V2 play off each other that makes the magic happen. Personally I don't care for the Tung-Sol RI's that much. I've used them in small class A combos with decent results but I never liked them in a Marshall preamp.

What's your amp? That makes a lot of difference as to how much the preamp tubes affect the tone. Hang around here long enough and you'll end up with a Telefunken in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. I could sit here and name off a dozen or so V1 choices that will make your amp sing, but if you're looking for current production tubes, try to find some old stock Chinese (Shuguang, Ruby, TAD, etc.) 12AX7's. The JJ's can sound decent if you get a good one. 

I haven't tried the Preferred Series 7025, but it looks like more of the same Chinese Mullard BS. I'm not saying that it's a bad tube, but I have yet to find ANY preamp tube that's a "Mullard copy" and actually sounds like a Mullard. I wonder if the Preferred series is the same Mullard copy that GT tried to get going awhile back. The failure rate was so high they abandoned them.


----------



## solarburn

At first I liked them in V1 but I don't use them any more. I could get by with one. I'd prolly go with a Svetlana 12ax7 instead.


----------



## chee16

My amp is a tsl602 (winged C el34 PTs, eminence tonespotter and black powder for speakers, guitar is an early 90s G&L Legacy with Texas special pickups), my first post was about it and Marty helped me out with his recommendation on current production tubes and some offers if I wanted to get into NOS.

From everything I could find, the preferred series 7025 is actually a Chinese made tube for the Tube Store and TAD to their specific specs. It is the same tube as the TAD 7025 apparently.

I tried that Tung Sol in v1 with EH's, JJ's, with that 7025 and the spax7, was no deal, haha. I know it is all subjective, and I didn't think I was doing anything wrong, I just wondered if my opinion was the minority on this one.

I think I am going to get a Shuguang 12ax7-a and b from the tube store and try them out. I think I will also spring for the testing. I emailed them about testing for high gain and low microphonics and was told they test all their tubes for low microphonics, and when testing for balanced triodes they test for high gain anyways. To me, $5 is worth not having to buy three and pick the best one haha.

Next question, I am also thinking of trying and unbalanced tube in the PI. Are there any recommendations on current production tubes for the PI of my amp if I get it tested for being unbalanced? The guy at the tube store also said that if I write in the comments of my order that I want the tube tested for unbalance instead it was no biggie.


----------



## RiverRatt

I wouldn't spend much time on balanced vs unbalanced. The circuit isn't perfectly balanced. You could buy an unbalanced tube that is exactly the opposite of your amp's balance, and there you are all balanced anyway. 

I've tried tubes that were balanced, unbalanced and even two different tubes in. One bottle. I always end up back to where I started; with a high-gain 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wonder what the average "unbalanced" spread is on a Marshall amp? 

I think it would be high odds to get an unbalanced PI tube to balance out an amp.


----------



## chee16

Alright, I have to ask, what exactly is unbalanced about an amp? This might be a big question but with the last 2 posts it was sticking in my mind.


----------



## RiverRatt

I know; I was just being silly, but I really don't think balanced or unbalanced tubes are anything to be sought-after. Since I scored a few 12DW7s awhile back, I tried one just to see what it sounded like. It's the only tube I've really heard a big difference in. It sounded a little like playing through a clean amp an a distorted amp at the same time. 

I think I still have a few NOS 12DW7/7247 tubes if anybody wants to try one. To be fair, I wasn't able to crank the amp up really loud when I tried the tube. I want to keep one or two for my collection.


----------



## RiverRatt

When an amp is built with components with a 10% to 20% tolerance, it would be a complete accident if it was perfectly balanced. Dan Torres talks a lot about "blueprinting" an amp; where you measure every component and use only the ones that test exactly as specified. The problem with that approach is that new components will drift, so really you're chasing something that can't be caught. He also goes on to say that if you take a new amp such as my Fender Deluxe RI and change out the components with slightly lower-rated ones to simulate parts that have dropped a bit in their performance over 30 years, supposedly this will make the amp sound just like an old one. Dan knows his math inside and out, but I think he's inhaled too many lead fumes from soldering or something. He takes a very strange approach to tone.


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## MartyStrat54

And as I said before, a group of techs did create a balanced amp and it sounded like ass.


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## mickeydg5

unbalanced, it's good


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMuoFEi42oE]jim carrey - Its good - YouTube[/ame]


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## chee16

Ahhhh, I was thinking it was about the resistor and capacitor, etc tolerances, I just was wasn't clear on how that translated over to the balance of the tube, still not totally clear, haha, but I don't think it matters really. 

I think what I will do is just give one of the JJ's I have a good shake until it consistently rolls to one side when I put it on the table....that would definitely be unbalanced right?


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## MartyStrat54

It "is" about component tolerances, output transformer deviation, power tube deviation and phase inverter tube.

If you took almost any guitar amp and put it on a scope, the sine wave wouldn't be perfect. Either the top or bottom of the wave would be bigger than the other. This is what the term imbalanced means. The sine wave is not perfect.


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## mickeydg5

Just stick a wad of gum on one side of the PI tube, now totally unbalanced.

When someone speaks of a musical amplifier being unbalanced it is in regard to the two sides of the push-pull amplifier which involves components from the PI (phase inverter) on through the power tube circuits and ending at the primaries of the OT (output transformer). All of the components have nominal values and tolerances. Most components are very close to their specifications. The two components that are most likely to be unbalanced are as you might expect the PI tube and the power tube(s). With a musical amplifier there is no effort to match the components of the two sides of the push-pull system. If the components are within tolerances then they are good to go, installed and used. The idea of balancing is an effort to level or balance the signal on both sides of the push-pull, being the top half and the bottom half like Marty mentioned. Balancing would have a precedence in stereo or hi-fi equipment. Balancing will produce the most accuracy and power. Slight unbalance will add some coloration and distortion which is what most like in a musical amplifier. Keep in mind that unbalance is maybe a couple to several percent on average. Too much unbalance leads to problems.

Nothing is perfect or works perfectly and sometimes that is a good thing.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> It "is" about component tolerances, output transformer deviation, power tube deviation and phase inverter tube.
> 
> If you took almost any guitar amp and put it on a scope, the sine wave wouldn't be perfect. Either the top or bottom of the wave would be bigger than the other. This is what the term imbalanced means. The sine wave is not perfect.



Good answer! 

You'd think being in the newspaper business, I would be better at expressing myself. My brain has been on vacation for the last month or two.


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## MartyStrat54

Alan-In case my email fails, here is the picture again.


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## mickeydg5

I am looking at the illustration with the bolt and guitar inline.

For aesthetics, would it look better if the guitar and lightning bolt were more vertical and holding the guitar at the neck?

Just throwing some options out there.

Check out the pose for example.








I think that is Zakk with a bolt of lightning and an air guitar.


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## MartyStrat54

You must not have seen this rough design when I first posted it as I thought you would comment on it (I think it is on page 504).

I already told Alan to have the lightning bolt raised "as in defiance." 

Holding the guitar by the neck is a good idea, but I think Alan is already working on what I had suggested. 

I did use your helmet idea though.


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## mickeydg5

I probably did see it.
That is cool. Cannot wait to see Alan's rendition of it.


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## RiverRatt

Just a rough draft... I get started doing this stuff and hours roll by. I know it needs some tweaking but I thought I'd see if I'm anywhere close or if I need to erase it and start over. After working with advertisers for 15 years, I've developed a pretty thick skin. Feel free to critique at will.


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## solarburn

I'm liking that Alan.


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## MartyStrat54

I like the uniform, helmet and face, but I was hoping for a guitar and lightning bolt. It that too difficult to do?


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## mickeydg5

Looks good so far.
Was the model a boxer?


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## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Looks good so far.
> Was the model a boxer?



No, I got the idea for the arms from a gladiator image I found. The rest is just freehand stuff. I don't intend for this to be the final, I just wanted to get an idea of how it's progressing. Marty, that is NOT not the final, I emailed the Adobe Illustrator file to home and I'll finesse it some more. Like I said, this is a rough draft. I'm just afraid that it's not going to look like a tube anymore when I'm done.


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## RiverRatt

Anyone heard from gameshound? He's been AWOL for like a month now. We were working on a trade before he dropped off the radar.


----------



## Lowlife

RiverRatt said:


> Just a rough draft... I get started doing this stuff and hours roll by. I know it needs some tweaking but I thought I'd see if I'm anywhere close or if I need to erase it and start over. After working with advertisers for 15 years, I've developed a pretty thick skin. Feel free to critique at will.



It's very cool, but the internals of the tube that is kinda visible made me think you'd made an error. only nerdy tube guys (like us), get those things, the rest WILL think there is something weird going on. Maybe leave it out in the face, but keep it in the bottom


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## MartyStrat54

Guy on EBAY selling (10) NIB RCA 7025's for $700. 3 minutes left and zero bids. Imagine that?


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## RiverRatt

Those RCA's with the flat-sided mica spacers are pretty close to the top of my shit list. I'll bet those NOS ones don't even test close to new.


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## MartyStrat54

And because of the packaging, this denotes later production tubes. They are not built like the original 7025's. These are basically 12AX7A's that are labeled as 7025's. This was done because of older gear that called for 7025's and RCA wanted the consumer to think that was what they were buying.

As I've said before, I really don't buy any RCA tubes older than a 1966 vintage. Actually, I think 1959-60 was the last years of good RCA's and their competition made as good or better tubes than RCA.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this out. My favorite dream and worst nightmare come true. Two CARTONS of brand-new trays of Sylvania tubes. 






I ended up with a tray (5 tubes) of 6BQ5's, 12BZ7's, 12AV7's, 12AZ7's, 8BQ5's, a couple of 6CA4's and 12BH7A's. I picked up a bunch of loose and/or used tubes too, but nothing that just blew me away. I guess the best ones were an RCA black plate 6L6GB and an RCA black plate 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Anybody out there need any TV tubes? See Alan.

I'm afraid to ask what you paid for these?


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## RiverRatt

I didn't buy them, I just got to pick through them. Of course, the nightmare part was that there wasn't anything really good in either carton. The bottom of one was full of large tube boxes that turned out to have the same Compactron in every damn one. I'm pretty happy with the 6BQ5's. Classic red print Sylvanias. I had hoped that the EZ81's would be Mullards but they turned out to be GE.


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## mickeydg5

Sounds like a decent tube picking day.


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## RiverRatt

Yeah, it was. 99% of the time I don't do nearly this good. Actually, I ended up with 46 tubes, a WGS Green Beret, a Boss Super Overdrive, and I just traded in stuff that was in the way. I like hitting those kind of places on the weekend. I'll have to go to antique malls now with my wife the next time we go out. It takes a patient woman to go on a tube-hunting trip with me. We'll hit 25 years this July.


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## minerman

Hey guys,
I've been tube rolling with the DSL-1 H, using the nice 12ax7's I got in the "Big Fat A Chord" contest.....I can't really say I have a favorite really, they all sound pretty good (to me anyway) in the little amp....

If I had to pick one, the Sylvania Alan sent me seems to smooth the top end a little, & seems to have a little more gain (again, this is to my ears) than the rest (Mullard I got from Marty, GE from Alan, 5751's from RiffRaff, you get the idea... they all sound good, but _to me_, the Sylvania just has something a little different/extra/better....)....

BUT, when I use this tube in V1 of the 1w, it's started having a crackling/static sound, without anything plugged into the amp (just the amp/cab)....is this a sign the tube is on it's way out??? All the other tubes are pretty quiet, & none of the other tubes I have make this noise, so I stopped using it in the new amp...whaddya guys think???

And, while I'm at it, what NOS tubes would you recommend for the power section of the DSL-1??? The stock Marshall branded ECC82 tubes are fine to me, I'm asking just in case one of 'em goes bad, & I'd have a backup set really, but maybe a NOS set would give the amp a little extra "mojo"???


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## MartyStrat54

Well if the Sylvania is making noises and the other tubes aren't, that's a pretty good sign that the tube is on its way out. I do find it odd that it is okay in the Tweaker. Maybe the 1 watter runs a different plate voltage on the 12AX7's.

NOS 12AU7's (ECC82's) are a dime a dozen on the open market. You can get a good USA brand cheap. I would buy several different brands and see which one is best.


----------



## minerman

Thanks Marty,
I tried the tube in the T15 this morning, & sure enough, it has the noise/crackling with both amps....

Thanks for the heads up on the 12AU7's too, I suppose I'm just gonna have to buy a few & see which I like the best....

Thanks again!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Sometimes the noise will go away after the tube gets good and hot. What you are hearing is grid leakage. It should still be OK for awhile if you can stand the noise. If not, use it as a cathode follower or some other non-gain stage application.


----------



## MM54

Mmmm, just finished cleaning out my Technics SU-V909 and it sounds really good. Sounded good before but now it's amazing.

Only issue now is that one of my JBL L112s is cutting out. When I smack the side of the cabinet it comes back. It's always done this but I've never gotten much use out of these speakers until now so it didn't much matter. Probably something loose in the crossover, which will not be fun to try to work out.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm off to test the weekend's treasures. Marty, don't let the other thing spill over to here. I really didn't intend for that to go the way it did.


----------



## minerman

RiverRatt said:


> Sometimes the noise will go away after the tube gets good and hot. What you are hearing is grid leakage. It should still be OK for awhile if you can stand the noise. If not, use it as a cathode follower or some other non-gain stage application.


 
Thanks Alan,
The tube is fine until it heats up, that's when the noise/crackling starts...It's a shame the tube is on it's way out though, good sounding tube for V1 in either of the amps I have....

Thanks again for the info/tips Alan!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that doesn't sound good. It took me forever to figure out what that noise is. One of my better friends among my group of tube fanatics told me that those pops and ffffffft noises were a symptom of internal leakage between elements of the tube. It's not necessarily the screens, there can be leakage between just about any of the components. In the bigger octal power tubes, you can sometimes see a flash in the blue glow that corresponds with the pops. If it gets worse as the tube gets hotter, it can cause a "runaway" where the tube redplates and dies a nasty death. Usually the preamp tubes aren't that dramatic.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## MM54

I know my opinion on it is irrelevant, but I'll throw it in there - that looks pretty awesome. One thing I'd do though, is put the internals back in at the base - it's good without them behind his face, but the base of the tubeman looks a bit empty, and the pin connections would be a nice bit of detail.


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## MartyStrat54

That looks like a winner. It really doesn't bother me about the base area, because I don't know how well that would show up on a T-shirt.


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## MartyStrat54

Alan, one thing that would be nice. Can you outline it and take the white background out like you did on your new avatar? That would look a lot nicer on the T-shirt.


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## RiverRatt

Oh yeah, I can tweak it any way you want. It's an Adobe Illustrator vector image so it is infinitely editable. The things that bother me are the fingers on the lightning-bolt hand, the pauldrons on the shoulders, and the guitar looks a little too freehand. Make any suggestions... that's why I put it up here.


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## RiverRatt

BTW, the font is called "Squealer". I thought it was appropriate.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, one thing that would be nice. Can you outline it and take the white background out like you did on your new avatar? That would look a lot nicer on the T-shirt.



Actually, I don't think I'll have to do that. The white background is added when you export the file from Illustrator to a JPEG or whatever. In the actual drawing, only the parts inside the outline are white. If you're going to print T-Shirts, find out what kind of file they like to print from and make sure those colors are going to work. I used grays on the guitar hardware and that may not fly. I may have to do the hardware in white. I don't do T-shirts very often. I used to draw a lot but over the last 10 years or so I've gotten out of the habit. I'll do a billboard once in awhile but most of what I do is just newspaper ads. This was a welcome change.


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## solarburn

That's pretty bad ass man. Great work Alan.

It's gonna look great when its all finished. Looks awesome right now.


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## MartyStrat54

I'll try and call Blue Cotton tomorrow about the image. I already took the logo and put it on the T-Shirt (mock up) and it had the square white border and I don't want that. As I said, I have the lettering done and I want it to say "Martimus Maximus" on top, the logo under it and then "Audio Tubes." The upper words are arched to the top and the bottom words are arched towards the bottom. They were yellow, green and black, but I changed the colors to match the logo. I think it is six color right now, but I don't think I picked gray. Also the T-shirts are Ice Gray in color. (Note: I picked five colors to match the logo, but they must be counting the color of the T-shirt, because they have it listed as 6 colors.) I'll find out more tomorrow when I call them. Six colors look cool but they are $$$!

Maybe make the guitar hardware and pickups the same color as the arm bands and pauldrons and the traces around the parts black? Black pole pieces.

If you can clean up the shape of the guitar, fine. Otherwise I think it is good enough. We aren't painting the Mona Lisa.


----------



## johnfv

Adding my unsolicited opinion - I think those little guitar playing condoms are really cute 

Seriously though - Alan I like the MM design and your avatar also. I do think adding some detail at the base might make the MM logo look more obviously like a tube but I understand that might not translate on a T shirt. You might actually get more attention if people DO think it is a guitar playing condom...


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## RiverRatt

You funny.


----------



## Lowlife

Very neat...I agree with you, the hands looks a bit odd...If you want i can use my limited skills and sketch you up some...

Oh and as stated before, I didn't have any problem with the internals at the base, I rather liked them...it only added some confusion in the face area.


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## MartyStrat54

I told Alan to change the lightning bolts back to yellow. More money to print, but I like how it contrasts. (I think this is going to be a 6 color Tee.)

*How many of you guys are going to buy one?
*


----------



## solarburn

I'd like to have one. How much per shirt?


----------



## RiverRatt

Completely off-topic: Marty, take a look at this JBL. It looks to be an incredible deal. What am I missing?

vintage jbl 2130 12 inch speaker


----------



## MartyStrat54

That particular speaker is a mid-70's vintage JBL. It is similar to a D120, but it has extended range to 8KHz where a D120 is a little over 5KHz. It doesn't take as much power as the D120, but is rated at 100 watts continuous power. I doubt seriously if it was OE in the Fender Twin. The speaker upgrade on a Fender Twin would be an orange colored JBL D120. Probably someone blew a D120 and put this in as a replacement. (Nothing wrong with that.) It has a 4-inch voice coil like the D120 and is very sensitive and one speaker can get real loud with 20 watts going through it. It is the 12-inch version of the 2135, which is a 15-inch model. The 15's were popular with the pedal steel crowd. These were also used in two-way PA cabs and believe it or not, as ceiling speakers on a 70 volt system. (Imagine using that premium of a speaker for a low fi application?)

If it is in the shape the seller claims, it's a good deal. This speaker will stay undistorted at high volume. No cone breakup. When using a distortion pedal, the sound will be firm and controlled.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I'd like to have one. How much per shirt?



Well Joe, that depends on how many shirts I get and how many colors are going to be used. Right now, I am thinking of getting 10 large, 10 XL and 10 XXL. I may get some mediums too, for the big girls you like. 

Alan is going to make a slight color mod on the lightning bolts and I'm pretty happy with the final logo.

The shirts will be premium quality, Ice Gray in color. There will probably be 6 colors on the front with black only on the back.

With shipping, I'm going to try and keep it at around $22 each and that is me selling them at cost.


----------



## MartyStrat54

BTW-What are you, an XXL?


----------



## JohnDanese

Looks really great!! Can the pins be gold now cause of the dark background. Ill but a shirt!! Marty, off topic but I came here to see if you were ok. I know you live on OK, and was hoping you were not hit in the storms.


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## MartyStrat54

Thanks John. Yesterday was the worst day for me. We had 50 MPH winds and some tree branches came down and a few things went blowing down the road. Had a heavy rain with lots of lightning strikes. One was so close that it made that tremendously loud cracking sound. Some of the thunder was like a low A and made the whole house rattle.

We actually started getting storms Sunday afternoon and they just cleared out about two hours ago. Lots of local flooding all over eastern OK.

We have about 36 hours off and then there is another chance for storms to develop. 

Thanks for your interest in the T-shirts. I think they are going to look really cool.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That particular speaker is a mid-70's vintage JBL. It is similar to a D120, but it has extended range to 8KHz where a D120 is a little over 5KHz. It doesn't take as much power as the D120, but is rated at 100 watts continuous power. I doubt seriously if it was OE in the Fender Twin. The speaker upgrade on a Fender Twin would be an orange colored JBL D120. Probably someone blew a D120 and put this in as a replacement. (Nothing wrong with that.) It has a 4-inch voice coil like the D120 and is very sensitive and one speaker can get real loud with 20 watts going through it. It is the 12-inch version of the 2135, which is a 15-inch model. The 15's were popular with the pedal steel crowd. These were also used in two-way PA cabs and believe it or not, as ceiling speakers on a 70 volt system. (Imagine using that premium of a speaker for a low fi application?)
> 
> If it is in the shape the seller claims, it's a good deal. This speaker will stay undistorted at high volume. No cone breakup. When using a distortion pedal, the sound will be firm and controlled.



So it's just about the polar opposite of the Green Beret I have in my DRRI now. I will probably just stay with that in the Fender. The Green Beret is a big, warm sounding speaker with just a bit of very nice break-up. The added MID control on the amp pushes it close to Marshall territory. I'm actually finding out that I like channel 1 better than channel 2. It's a little more raw and with the mids cranked it sounds like an old Tweed amp. 

You guys remember my experiment with the Vox AC4TV mini and an 8BQ5? Well, since I picked up a few nice ones on Saturday, I tried one in the Class 5 and it sounds great in it, too. I had a question about it, though. Is the 8v filament drawing more power and trying to run at 8v, or is it running a little cold at 6.3v?


----------



## JohnDanese

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thanks John. Yesterday was the worst day for me. We had 50 MPH winds and some tree branches came down and a few things went blowing down the road. Had a heavy rain with lots of lightning strikes. One was so close that it made that tremendously loud cracking sound. Some of the thunder was like a low A and made the whole house rattle.
> 
> We actually started getting storms Sunday afternoon and they just cleared out about two hours ago. Lots of local flooding all over eastern OK.
> 
> We have about 36 hours off and then there is another chance for storms to develop.
> 
> Thanks for your interest in the T-shirts. I think they are going to look really cool.



Ill take an XL. They are gonna be cool!!

Hopefully your area has seen the worst of it already! So sad man. Makes me wanna hop in the car and help.

Anyway, I'll order one of those very cool shirts. It's been great watching it evolve!! Ha! Lemme know where to send a check or Paypal or whatever works best.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I had a question about it, though. Is the 8v filament drawing more power and trying to run at 8v, or is it running a little cold at 6.3v?


 
It is running about 21% cold in the neighborhood of 6.3V and not good for the tube.


----------



## solarburn

Marty I'll take 2 XL's when they are ready.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> BTW-What are you, an XXL?



That's what she said!

Think XL will do it. Gonna lose the belly now I'm going into mountain bike season. Maybe ...


----------



## RiverRatt

Muy muy grande for me. I don't have a mountain bike.


----------



## solarburn

I'm thinking I might need 1 XXL and then an XL. Jus in case...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee Joe, I thought you were an XXL like me. In fact, I thought you were bigger than me. I'm 6'3", 265. The last time I wore an XL was in 2007.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well tonight I am off to see Razor Dave and Black Tora in Tulsa at a big biker bar. I guess there will be 3 or 4 bands. Should be fun. I wish I had a digital video camera, I would take some video. I will take my camera and take some pictures.

My long lost buddy, David DuVal is going with me. Maybe another 300 pound Indian will hit on me again. (God I hope not.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Those JBL's are not rock speakers. The D120 and 2130 were used in small PA and wedge stage monitors. That's because they are clean and work very well in that sort of application. The D120's were popular in Twins, because they were used by guys who wanted the extra clean tone. These were basically country players. These speakers were not designed to have cone breakup. They were designed to provide clear, articulate sound at high volume levels. Again, perfect for PA use.

The 2130 is in the same category as an EV12L and Altec 416 (like what Randy Rhoads used). These speakers were all developed for PA use, but they eventually ended up in guitar cabinets, probably because they were loud and had better power handling than most regular guitar speakers. 

You got to realize that in 1975, you still had to have a very loud rig as the PA systems were still not that great. (By this time, certain sound and stage companies had JBL systems, but the average bar band were still using inferior systems.) Guys naturally gravitated towards speakers that would be real loud. If I remember right, the D120 is a 103dB speaker and the 2130 is very close to that. (The most efficient speaker that I know of is the JBL D130 that is 105dB. This is what SRV used with a Vibrolux.)


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Gee Joe, I thought you were an XXL like me. In fact, I thought you were bigger than me. I'm 6'3", 265. The last time I wore an XL was in 2007.



No I'm 6" and 220. Sometimes I can get away with an XL and then other times I need bigger. Depends on the shirt. If it runs small or a true size.

Have fun and tell Dave we said " Roooooooooock"!


----------



## RiverRatt

minerman said:


> Thanks Alan,
> The tube is fine until it heats up, that's when the noise/crackling starts...It's a shame the tube is on it's way out though, good sounding tube for V1 in either of the amps I have....
> 
> Thanks again for the info/tips Alan!!!



Can you post a pic of that tube that went bad? I probably have another one I can send you.


----------



## minerman

Alan.....man, you don't have to do that, you sent me more than enough tubes for the "A Chord" contest anyway. I was supposed to get what, 2 tubes??? I ended up with a Mullard, GE, Sylvania, 6V6GT power tubes, 6K6 power tubes, plus those Russian 6P3S' that you only had one set of....

Wow dude, you are a great guy, here's a pic if you must.....:




But remember Alan, I have quite a few pre's I can swap/roll, so it's not like I can't play through either of my amps dude, between you, Marty & RiffRaff (5751's), I have enough pre-amp tubes to last a little while....

I'll tell you what I do want/need though, you got any 12AU7/ECC82's in your stash??? The only tubes I have like that are what came in my DSL-1, & if one (or both) go bad, I'd be stuck without the 1watter until I got some more shipped.....lemme know, either here, or pm me, maybe we can work out a deal where I wouldn't feel so guilty over all these tubes....


----------



## RiverRatt

Like Marty said, 12AU7's are cheap. I can send you some nice ones... i have more than I could ever need. If I should run out, I have a box full of 6CG7/6FQ7's that are pretty much 12AU7's in a taller bottle and with a different pinout.

Do you know if it matters how the tubes match up? In the JMP1, it used 12AT7's in a Class A power amp, and you could throw just about anything in it. It's the only one in the Anniversary series that does that, though. IIRC all the rest are push/pull designs.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh BTW, that's a GE 12AX7. If you see that gray, blocky stencil print on a tube, it's a GE no matter what else is printed on it. That may have been an organ pull. Most of the tubes I got from that deal were pretty much used up. I kept the stronger ones, but that one must have been on the way out. I have a handful of NOS GE tubes that a friend gave me, and there's not a single one that tests even close to minimum good.


----------



## minerman

Sorry for the mis-info on the tube Alan, maybe I mis-read the little labels you had, or just got mixed up, either way, I think you can tell I'm a tube-newbie...

On the question about the 12UA7's, I don't know if it matters or not how the tubes match up, I can't really find any info about the tube layout for my DSL-1, I did read in a post by Santiago that the "alone" ECC82/12AU7 is the power tube, & the other is part of the preamp (it's the last gain stage & cathode follower) http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/52774-marshall-1w-tube-layout.html Post #10 is where Santiago tells this, but it's about all I can find about what each tube does...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm totally burned out today. Went to see Black Tora last night and Razor Dave showed me how awesome a DSL 100 can sound. Wow...that guy can play! Very professional show. Black Tora came on at 11 PM, so we got to the bar a little before that. I only drank two light beers, but my buddy slugged a bunch of double Jackie D's and Coke down. My buddy let the band crash over at his place. We didn't leave the bar until 2:30 AM and we ate and then got to bed around 3:30 AM. I'm getting too old for this. LOL!


----------



## solarburn

Too cool Marty! No big women to tend to your wanton desires...? Wee Haaaawww! 2 light beer's are not going to get you there I know that. You're gonna have to slug down way more alckyhol for some big legged ass crush'n action...

Wish I could of heard the DSL in action. Dave's a great player for sure!


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> It is running about 21% cold in the neighborhood of 6.3V and not good for the tube.



I really don't care about the tube. As long as it isn't hurting the amp, I'll feed it all the 8BQ5's it wants. I don't know why, but it sounds a lot smoother with the 8v tube. It lacks a bit of the boxy, compressed tone that I usually associate with EL84 amps. Dude had some 10BQ5's but I didn't get them. Is cathode-stripping the problem?


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I haven't forgotten your design. I'll try to finish it up at work tomorrow. We're trying to get our middle child graduated from high school tomorrow night and it's been hectic.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Not a problem, Alan.

As far as your tube issue. Yeah, you might get some cathode stripping due to running cool heaters, but the tube will still probably last for a while and it shouldn't hurt the amp.


----------



## MM54

Marty, I know you know your shit about JBLs, so this is as good of a place for this question as any.

Anything I should be looking for in particular on the crossover of my L112 that is causing the whole thing to cut out (except for, maybe, the tweeter) until I smack the cabinet OR put a very loud signal to it, then it starts working again for a bit?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in my experience with consumer JBL, you might want to look at the crossover pots. They tend to go bad and this will cause cut out. When the speaker cuts out, take a screwdriver and turn the midrange pot to see if it fires back up.

Otherwise, I would look for signs of overheated caps that may be shorting out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Final version?


----------



## RiverRatt

Oops. There's a little white around the hand that I forgot to clean up. Marty, I'll send you another copy soon. I have to go and watch my girl graduate from high school.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Final version?



Alan-The quality of this picture is better than the file you sent me. I sent you a PM about how to submit the file or the picture to Blue Cotton.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-The quality of this picture is better than the file you sent me. I sent you a PM about how to submit the file or the picture to Blue Cotton.



It's the same file. I scaled the one here down a bit to fit on the screen. The original image is letter-sized at 300 DPI. On your screen the original file is going to be at more than a 4:1 ratio. You could print it on the side of your car without any serious degradation in quality. If it doesn't look good, zoom in. The jaggies will disappear when you view it at 100%.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got it loaded. I screwed up and didn't do it right before. Duh! 

Blue Cotton has sent me several email offers for 10 percent off of my order. I wasn't ready to order so I missed out. I emailed them to see if they will give me the 10 percent off. Otherwise, I will have to wait until they send me another email offer. With a $600 order, that's $60. I'm going to go ahead and get 5 mediums, just in case some girl wants one, or a younger dude.

BTW Alan-What size shirt do you wear? You of course are going to get a free one. Also, I can't remember if you have a PayPal account. I want to send you some cash for your time. PM me with the info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh for everyone's information, the final logo will look a little different as the guitar and shirt on the tube gladiator will be regular red to match the red in the letters. The letters look cool. They have a yellow and black border around the red.

That's why I went with the yellow lightning bolts, because I had yellow in the letters and the lightning bolts look cooler in yellow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh yeah, another thing. To all my homies, I have a new cell phone number.

*918-841-4648*

FYI


----------



## chee16

Alright, I'm looking for some 5751 recommendations please. From what I can gather the current production don't really get good reviews, but I know nothing about NOS tubes. Any help would be awsome, thank you!
Wes


----------



## RiverRatt

1950's black plate triple-mica Sylvanias are the best, hands down. GE made one in the 1950's as well, which looks so much like the Sylvania that they could be the same tube, but everyone likes the Sylvania better.


----------



## chee16

Awsome, but what kind of prices do they go for, and how hard are they to find. I am not looking to pay $10, but $40 is a bit high too for something that I have no experience with. 

I am guessing that current production gets the typical thumbs down? JJ, sovtek being the only ones making one? I wasn't really looking to buy those, would rather have a NOS one.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd be willing to bet that all the current production 5751's are actually 12AX7's. I have have some Shuguang 5751's and they are stronger than most of my 12AX7's. I did a quick eBay search and it looks like you should be able to find a Sylvania for $20 to $30. If you'd have been here a month earlier... I gave a good friend of mine my last two 5751's for his Vibroverb and Super.

What amp are you putting these in? You may find that the lower gain doesn't work so well in a Marshall. They really come to life in a cranked Fender amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

1950s GE Black Plate 3 Mica 5751 Vacuum Tube | eBay

RCA 5751 12AX7 Perfect Balance Black Plate Sqr Getr Triple Mica s Rod Test | eBay

Pair GE Five Star 5751 Tubes ECC83 12AX7 Calibrated TV 7D U Tested Good | eBay

1 GE 5751 Preamp Tube Never Used | eBay


----------



## chee16

I've been checking ebay, I know what is out there, but I was just looking for direction on what old stock was worth trying. I know that the 5751 doesn't get much love with Marshall's on here, but I am not necessarily looking for a typical Marshall sound either. My thought was using it in v2, though I would try it in v1. If those don't work then try it in the PI.

BTW, I HAVE been searching the forum, ebay and googling, I just thought some first hand knowledge from trusted opinions would be good.


----------



## chee16

BTW, I just reread my last comment, totally sounded snarky, sorry I didn't mean it like that, I just didn't want you guys to think I hadn't done any searching around. I guess I shouldn't post at this time of night. I am running a tsl602, not sure if the 5751 will work in it but I think it is worth a try.

PS, Just saw the Trews (Canadian band) at retro fest here in Chatham Ontario, I wasn't really into them based on their radio releases, but they sounded really good. Their sound was perfect for a larger show (9000 people). Guitarist was playing through a Silver Jubilee, but had a smaller silver tolex head sitting beside it that was pointed so I couldn't get a good look at it.


----------



## RiverRatt

Check out the Sylvania tubes that I mentioned in that first reply. That's the Stevie Ray Vaughan tube. If you can find one labeled JHS 5751, those were screened for military use. 

With all that said, don't pass up a black plate GE if you run across one for a good price. They are really close to the Sylvanias tone-wise.

Also, a big "hell yeah" for trying them in all the preamp spots. A strong Raytheon black plate is THE V2 tube in a DSL/TSL as agreed by everyone who's tried one, but that doesn't mean the 5751 is inferior. I personally like a high-gain V2 that's at least as strong as my V1 tube. YMMV.

Here's my last 5751 haul. I wish I still had them, but they went to good homes. The last three on the right in the front row are Sylvania, the rest are GE.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The tubes I picked for Chee to look at were based on his price range, test scores (or NIB) and USA sellers. There were some Sylvania 5751's that were in Canada and the shipping was high and the total would be over $40.


----------



## chee16

MartyStrat54 said:


> The tubes I picked for Chee to look at were based on his price range, test scores (or NIB) and USA sellers. There were some Sylvania 5751's that were in Canada and the shipping was high and the total would be over $40.


 
Thanks for those, unfortunately 2 of them say that the seller won't ship to Canada, sucks. I do appreciate it though, as you obviously know what/ who to look for.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh shit, I didn't realize you lived in Canada. There were several Canadian sellers that had some nice tubes. I believe one was selling a Sylvania Black Plate.


----------



## chee16

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh shit, I didn't realize you lived in Canada. There were several Canadian sellers that had some nice tubes. I believe one was selling a Sylvania Black Plate.



No biggie, I will do some searching. The main thing is to get someone that lists it as tested? Has a good ebay rating too?


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## MartyStrat54

You can always post the EBAY link and I (or someone else) will evaluate the auction.


----------



## chee16

Awsome! I will take you guys up on that, found a couple in Canada.
Sylvania 5751 High Quality Double TOP Mica Ladder Plates Test NEW | eBay
General Electric GE 5751 TOP O Getter Vintage Tubes OP 2 | eBay
Not sure about the difference between black plate and grey plate, black plate seems to be pricey  The seller on the second listing has a bunch of them, all slightly different test readings.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blue Cotton said I could email copies of my design, but as you will see, they showed up blank. Sorry.

This is not the final version. The logo will be in the middle with "Martimus Maximus" at the top and "Audio Tubes" below the logo. I am having them space it out so that the logo can be as big as feasible. The guitar and tube gladiators shirt will be the same red as the letters. Other than that, it is ready to go.

The shirt color is "ICE GRAY."

Let me hear your comments.


----------



## chee16

Those look awsome, my only thing I am more partial to red lettering without the yellow, but its really just nit picking


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## MartyStrat54

*ATTN JOE-Is your email still solarburnDSL50@gmail.com?*


----------



## MartyStrat54

chee16 said:


> Awsome! I will take you guys up on that, found a couple in Canada.
> Sylvania 5751 High Quality Double TOP Mica Ladder Plates Test NEW | eBay
> General Electric GE 5751 TOP O Getter Vintage Tubes OP 2 | eBay
> Not sure about the difference between black plate and grey plate, black plate seems to be pricey  The seller on the second listing has a bunch of them, all slightly different test readings.



I would go with the GE Pair, as the shipping is cheaper. The guy selling the Sylvania is raping you with high shipping. 

No need to get too fanatical about a 5751. Any good used vintage tube will sound better than a CP and as Alan said, CP5751's are probably just relabeled 12AX7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chee16 said:


> Those look awsome, my only thing I am more partial to red lettering without the yellow, but its really just nit picking



I like the tri-color letters as the yellow helps set off the lightning bolts.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I've been looking for something to convert to a small, lightweight speaker cabinet. I got out and scavenged through all my old console stereos that I haven't put out at the curb yet, and found what appears to be a very nice Motorola 10" speaker. It came from a console that used the Golden Voice system of three speakers; two 8" drivers and one 10" woofer. Each speaker was driven by its own output transformer. The 10" is the one I'm interested in. It's AlNiCo, has a pretty heavy cone, and a lot of strange numbers. The EIA code is 748, which is Russell Speaker Co, of which I know nothing about. The EIA number is followed by 6137 which is pretty obviously a 1961 date code. The number above the EIA code is jibberish, but the number underneath is 100SL22 or it might end in 2-2, or it could just be a smudge. Do you see any clues there that might contain any real info about the speaker?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did a Dogpile search and came up with nothing informative. There was one hit about a Russel Line Array speaker. 

My feeling is that if the stereo was bi-amped (8's with a 10), the frequency response of the 10-inch speaker might not go too high and sound muddy. Especially if it has a heavy cone.

You should hook it up "free air" style and see what the highs sound like.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had eight pairs of the "duo system" from certain Baldwin organs. The woofer was a heavy cone with ribs and the mid/high speaker was a light curvilinear design. I would put two pairs in a 412 cab and it sounded great, but was low wattage.

For a single 12 cab, I would just use the curvilinear speaker. If I still had one, I would send it to you, but I got rid of all my speakers when I moved.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had an enclosure that I robbed out of one of the consoles as well. It's 14" wide and around 13" deep and the baffle is cut for a 10". I'm just going to put it in there and see if it works. If not, I'll probably go ahead and cut it for a 12" speaker. I screwed up and got ahead of myself and stapled the grille cloth in place already. It'll be a bitch to pull all those staples if I have to cut it for a 12" speaker.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Joe, can I be in your Orange circle? I traded some junk for a Micro Terror head. I'm pretty damned impressed with that little box. I stuck a Tungsram in it and it's not a bad sounding amp at all. I figured it would be all about balls-out distortion, but it can do cleans and OD tones really well, too. I'm thinking about showing up with it for rehearsal next week and blowing everybody away!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Joe, can I be in your Orange circle? I traded some junk for a Micro Terror head. I'm pretty damned impressed with that little box. I stuck a Tungsram in it and it's not a bad sounding amp at all. I figured it would be all about balls-out distortion, but it can do cleans and OD tones really well, too. I'm thinking about showing up with it for rehearsal next week and blowing everybody away!



Well hell yes man! An Orange is an Orange. Join the circle!


----------



## chee16

So just bought a Jan Philips 12ax7wa on ebay, $19 seemed pretty good. I know I was looking for 5751 tubes, but there were no crazy deals and Marty's original recommendation to me has stuck in the back of my head "Your amp loves NOS tubes"
ONE JAN Philips ECG 12AX7WA ECC83 7025 Grey Plates O Getter Vintage Tube OP 9 | eBay
I'm pretty sure these are not the most sought after NOS tubes, but from the reviews I read they can sound great. My motto has recently changed to "more tubes is always better"


----------



## solarburn

The shirt looks good. Even just the logo on the front and the Martimus Maximus Audio Tubes on the back would look great too. I do understand the info you want in there. Could always do more than one rendering for future options. 

You need to Tatoo that fecker on your chest or back and post a pic!


----------



## chee16

Just won this
GE 12AX7A ECC83 Ribbed Grey Tall Plate Tube Halo Getter Single Side Holes | eBay
Again, prolly not the most sought after, but tested high and good price. Gets me into the old stuff on a budget. Any comments on them are welcome, good or bad


----------



## minerman

The GE shown in the link is like the one Alan sent me a while back (the one that's on it's way out...)....it's my favorite V1 tube in my DSL-1 H, so if it's anything like the one I have, it's a firebreather!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> You need to Tattoo that fecker on your chest or back and post a pic!



I put it on my left ass check.


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> The shirt looks good. Even just the logo on the front and the Martimus Maximus Audio Tubes on the back would look great too. I do understand the info you want in there. Could always do more than one rendering for future options.



Well Joe, here's the deal on that. If I put the logo on the back, the cost of the shirt dramatically rises as there would be multi-colors used on the front and back. It is 6 color on the front and using black (along with the gray of the shirt) on the back is a lot cheaper.

I'll see how well these sell. My order will be over $600. I'm trying to keep the cost down around $20 per shirt. And as I said, I selected a premium shirt that will last a long time. As they say, this will be a limited collection series. If all goes well, I may venture into doing multi-colors on the front and back.

In the future I could possibly do a large logo on the front and a smaller one on the back (at the top) and still have room for my contact info.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chee16 said:


> So just bought a Jan Philips 12ax7wa on ebay, $19 seemed pretty good.



Philips ECG acquired the Sylvania plant. This is a later production tube. At the time of manufacture the consumer tube market was very poor. However, tubes were still used in military equipment, especially in aircraft and naval vessels. Since the "tone" requirments were no longer necessary, this tube was designed to be what is known as "ruggedized." It has stiffer supporting structure and slightly thicker plates.

What this equates to is a great tube for military application, but not a very good V1 tube. However, they do make a good cathode follower tube or a PI.


----------



## chee16

Awsome, thanks for the info Marty! Now when you say not good for v1 and v2 are you only comparing to old tubes? Or CP too? Just wondering. I will try it all over for shits and giggles, just wondered it if was still better then CP in your opinion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You can put it in any slot, but I don't like them for gain stages.

They can be a little stiff sounding.

It's hard to say if a CP tube will sound better, but I'm not ruling that out.

The best military preamp tubes were the much older WA's, WB's and the rare WC's. These were production tubes that underwent extensive testing. They are usually well balanced (especially if NIB) and high gain, usually over 100mU. They also sound really good, especially in Fenders.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Joe, here's the deal on that. If I put the logo on the back, the cost of the shirt dramatically rises as there would be multi-colors used on the front and back. It is 6 color on the front and using black (along with the gray of the shirt) on the back is a lot cheaper.
> 
> I'll see how well these sell. My order will be over $600. I'm trying to keep the cost down around $20 per shirt. And as I said, I selected a premium shirt that will last a long time. As they say, this will be a limited collection series. If all goes well, I may venture into doing multi-colors on the front and back.
> 
> In the future I could possibly do a large logo on the front and a smaller one on the back (at the top) and still have room for my contact info.



I like the tube character on the front. It looks great how you have it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well since I am paying for six colors on the front, I wanted to put as much stuff on the front as possible.


----------



## chee16

Does this seem a bit sketchy?
Amperex Bugle BOY 12AX7A EC883 12AX7 Tube Vintage Tested | eBay
No test numbers, just says it "Tested strong"


----------



## MartyStrat54

It was tested on a B and K. They read tubes differently than other tube testers and it can be confusing to list the test scores. (TV-7 testers are similar.) On a B and K, anything above 22 is considered good.


----------



## chee16

I love living in Canada, but somethings just suck. We simply can't get a ton of products, brokerage fees for parcels coming over the border, AND somehow the shipping cost for one tube from BC to Ontario is $14, yet from Taiwan it is $6.50.......at least the seller said he would combine shipping up to 10 tubes, that should make me feel better right? right? /rant


----------



## RiverRatt

Just a heads-up; if anyone is looking for tubes, let me know ASAP. I'm about to sell off a lot of octal power tubes and a few pre's. I'm not planning on selling any 12AX7's, but anything else is fair game. I'm listing them on eBay but I'll end the auction early if anyone here is interested and there are no bids.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Tee Shirt order has been placed. I should have them in around two weeks. Once I get them, I will leave a message here and on the "Members Classified." I also will list them on my Martimus Maximus FaceBook page.*

*Thanks again Alan for the final logo design.*


----------



## gameshound

hey there ..message me I might be intertested in the tubes your selling!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Glad to see you back around. Don't be a stranger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I'm all sold out of large Tee's. Looks like I will have to add some more to my order. I still have some M, XL and XXL.

These Tee's are moving briskly.


----------



## RiverRatt

Good deal! Are they already printed or are these advance orders?


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, that Russell 10" speaker is sounding NICE. I think I mentioned finding the plywood box in a console stereo with a 10 speaker in it. I put a black grille cloth on it and borrowed four plastic feet and a handle from a POS Peavey Backstage. It'll handle the full 20 watts I'm putting into it, and it's really articulate and not muddy at all. I used a strat football jack plate so that I can get it close to the wall.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Good deal! Are they already printed or are these advance orders?



All advanced orders. I posted up the info on my web page, FaceBook, MMG and this forum.:cool2:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I remember that Russell speaker. Glad it is working out. You can get an awesome sound when you are near a speakers wattage limits.

Football jack on a cab...interesting.


----------



## brp

Those shirts are pretty damn cool Marty!
Love the Gladiator tube


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I remember that Russell speaker. Glad it is working out. You can get an awesome sound when you are near a speakers wattage limits.
> 
> Football jack on a cab...interesting.



I'm pretty good at coming up with creative ways to pull off a project. I had a speaker jack plate cup thing that I could have used, but the football jack was handy, and I do like the cable not being butted up against the wall. I just did a quick trace and started out with a 7/8" hole saw and finished up with a jig saw. Took about 5 minutes, soldering and all.

Yeah, that little speaker is really putting out some tone. I picked up one of those Micro Terror amps just for the hell of it last weekend and I've been playing that thing through my homemade cabinet ever since. I even got a shipment of 6P3S tubes for the Tweaker yesterday and they are still sitting in the garage feeling neglected. That is a pretty wicked little amp. I picked it up as an alternative to headphone amps/iRig stuff. I'm tempted to get the little 8" Orange cab to go with it, but I doubt if it sounds as good as what I'm using.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How did you orientate the jack? Did you position it so that the hole was facing upward towards the head. That would be nifty and allow the cab to damn near go up against the wall.

What all is in those Micro Terror amps? What is the power rating? I know they are real low watt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay...I looked it up. It is like a small Valvestate. One 12AX7 and SS 20 watt power amp.

I'll bet it is easy to lift. LOL


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes on the jack facing upward. Yes on the amp as well. It's definitely a lightweight but it packs a hell of a punch. It seems like its response is quicker and tighter than my all-tube amps, which is a good thing when it's mixed in with a tube amp or two. It's like a slight oscillation when they are at the same volume level.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, I had to call the Tee Shirt company up this morning and I ordered 10 more large as I sold out of them. I also added 5 more mediums. This brings the total up to 50 shirts. Wow!

That gladiator is a big hit!

I haven't even announced the shirts are for sell here on the forum. I am waiting for Blue Cotton's art department to send me the final proof and then I will post the pictures in a members classified thread.

Thanks to all of my friends that have pre-ordered shirts from me.


----------



## seattleman1969

joshuaaewallen said:


> Are there any good resources to help gain some insight into the tone characteristics of different tubes _prior_ to actually buying a bunch of different tubes and juts blindly experimenting?



Comparison chart between current production 12AX7 tube types with a description of their testing methodology. 

12AX7 Comparison of Current Made Tubes | Amplified Parts


----------



## MartyStrat54

Welcome SeattleMan. That is a good chart. It was posted here before, but stuff like that gets buried in the back pages, so it is good that it gets reposted so anyone coming to this thread can view it.

Are you heavy into tubes? What are you using?


----------



## chee16

seattleman1969 said:


> Comparison chart between current production 12AX7 tube types with a description of their testing methodology.
> 
> 12AX7 Comparison of Current Made Tubes | Amplified Parts



Man I'm terrible, when I first looked at the chart I thought it was rating them on quality of sound.......I got all defensive cuz the ones I liked weren't high, lol

Good chart though for sure. Is it stickied?


----------



## mickeydg5

I notice the chart describes JJ 12AX7/ECC83s as having more gain, tight mids, top end, chime and harmonics.

I cannot even say how many times I have read here that JJ's are dark, period.

What gives?


----------



## RiverRatt

Have you ever seen a tube retailer who DIDN'T sing the praises of every brand they sell? Bottom line is, they are a retailer. They find creative ways to imply all sorts of things without ever saying anything concrete. Yeah, it's bright and chimey to the listener. What they don't mention are the criteria to achieve this tone. He probably rolled off the bass and dimed the mids and highs, then asked the listener; "Does this sound bright and chimey?" "Yes." That's about as much validation as they legally need. The strength test is more interesting, but I trust the guys here for good info as to how any given tube will sound.

I think that's what sustained this thread in the beginning. We heard and described a tube's tone the same way.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you want to get picky, take a look at the noise rating. Every tube is a perfect 1, 2, 3 or 4. No 3.2 or 1.7 etc. How did that happen?


----------



## RiverRatt

Alright, eBay is going insane. I was watching some of my auctions and did a search for a Marshall Class 5. Have any of you seen the BIN items that have the price marked out? You have to click on the auction and then follow another link where all will be revealed. The seller had crossed through $349.90 on the listing, and when you get to the bottom dollar, he shaved a whopping $.90 off that baby. $349 and it's yours. I'll bet the tight ass adds the $.90 back in on the handling fee.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I would rather read users and yous guys comments while knowing what amplifier, guitar and settings are being used. The chart reference is ok for comparison to other charts or tube description information from other store sites.

I am guessing with noise they lump categorized like low noise, a little noise, noisier, and most noisy while all being in an acceptable range.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay guys. Here is the final design I approved this morning.


----------



## RiverRatt

When are they going to be ready?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I hope in about two weeks. I am going to advertise them now in the classifieds. I can't believe how many large shirts got pre-ordered. I'll probably run out of them again.


----------



## solarburn

Marty do I need to put in an order somewhere or did you already order me 2 XXL's? I'm not sure what the preorder entailed...


----------



## minerman

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes, I would rather read users and yous guys comments while knowing what amplifier, guitar and settings are being used. The chart reference is ok for comparison to other charts or tube description information from other store sites.


 
Exactly what I do here dude, I'm still pretty new to the tube thing, & value these guys' opinions highly....especially Marty & Alan, to me it seems these 2 are the "tube guru's" of the forum!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Marty do I need to put in an order somewhere or did you already order me 2 XXL's? I'm not sure what the preorder entailed...



Joe, I thought you told me you wanted either a Large or XL? If you need XXL that's no problem. I had you down for two shirts. 

Just verify what size you want and I will reserve them for you.


----------



## MM54

I'd consider one, Marty, but as it is I'm pretty much flat broke (I'm desperately hunting for another job since research alone barely buys me food and gas, I've got other bills too, like rent... and electricity) - maybe next batch


----------



## ReiGnMaN

ey Marty... here's todays find which will probably amuse you.... 

Took my " Borderline replace" according to my jackson 115 T-funk smooth plate and threw it into v-1/2 on my t-50 yamaha... Sounded amazing with beautiful definition on chords in v-2. In v-1, didn't dig it at all. Now, I threw a "Replace" EH 12ax7 in v-1 for giggles and they hugged it out...... Yup, done and done. Tube testers eh? Wish I had a handful of the tubes people probably threw out that would sound like gold in a particular slot.

P.S., Digging the shirt design man! Will need to pickup one soon


----------



## MartyStrat54

REIGN-I sent you an email regarding the tube ID.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got notified today that my shirts have already shipped. That was fast! I am accepting payment at this time. Please email me at: meospeak@aol.com or MMTubes@aol.com and state your shipping address. I will get your shirt out as soon as I get them (either Saturday or Monday). Check, money order or PayPal. PayPal account is: meospeak@aol.com

*JOE-Do you need XXL's?*


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> REIGN-I sent you an email regarding the tube ID.



Thank you bro, you're the best


----------



## MartyStrat54

ALAN-I know that you may have gotten rid of your odd ball tubes. Do you have any popular HAM tubes? I got in with a guy who is a HAM operator and of course he has a lot of HAM friends.

What are some of the more common, sought after HAM tubes?

And what do they use for transmitter tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Man, there are more than I could begin to count. My friend who's into HAM radio will build a linear amp around just about any sweep tube, and he's got stock equipment that runs off lower frequency (audio) tubes like guitar amps use; EL34's, KT66's, you name it. A lot of his stuff is running between 800v and 1200v and putting out some wattage that makes the Marshall Major seem tame by comparison.

I'll see what NOS sweep tubes I have, but the best thing to do is probably to get me a handful of numbers and I'll see what I have. I have some pulls that are probably not usable, but you never know until you test them. I don't have a reliable way to test the 12-pin compactron types so I may have to send you what I find and you can check them and pass them along.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my B and K will test Compactrons, but only in emission mode.

The guy will have to contact me first before I know what he is looking for.

I'm sure a lot of these guys have trade circles and then there is always EBAY.


----------



## RiverRatt

Make friends with the HAM guys. They find more tubes than I do, and they don't have much use for noval twin triodes. 

Got a tube question for you guys. I was going thru a lot of Army Signal Corps stock from the early 1950's. All the tubes are sub-mini except for just a couple I've found. They come in a sealed brown paper wrapper with a foil lining. I opened up one that felt more substantial than the others and it is some 7-pin device called a Discriminator Transformer. It's about the size of a 6AQ5 - maybe a little larger diameter. What the hell does this thing do? Is it something frequency-related, maybe used alongside a crystal?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Based on the title, I would say you are in the ballpark, but since it is a transformer, it would need to be used in conjunction with an RC circuit. It may be part of a circuit on some radio device that rejected certain side bandwidths on either side of a center frequency.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, they were used inside those monstrous Korean (and WWII) Walky-Talky's.






An PRC 8 9 10 Military Radio TF 132 U Discriminator Plug in Transformer | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

Different PN






An PRC 8A 9A 10A Military Radio TF 204 U Discriminator Plug in Transformer | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool, thanks! That's exactly the same number as the one I found. I didn't bother checking eBay but I might sell a couple sealed at $15 a pop.

I still don't know what it does.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You guys remember Andrew (Blackone)? He had a mint TV-7 for sale and I gave him an estimate of value. He sent me a PM wanting me to check his listing. I went to take a look and the unit had sold for his "Buy It Now" price.

Vintage Military TV 7 D U Trans Conductance Tube Tester | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

He got a nice sum. I see some even went for more. Crazy, some of the prices are crazy high. Good for him though.


----------



## RiverRatt

Great googly moogly. That's the cleanest TV-7 I've ever seen and it's a D besides. Mine is a B and was made by Forway. I doubt if it would bring much over $300. It was a lucky find - some guy listed on Memphis Craigslist and I was the first one to see it. I got it for $120 with all the official US Army manuals, updates, changes, etc. plus the instructions on how to destroy it to keep it from falling into the hands of the enemy. Just think what would have happened if the North Koreans had been able to test a 12AX7 that accurately!

Seriously, I had no idea they were going that high. I wouldn't sell mine for anything. I sold a historic series Les Paul and never once considered selling my TV-7 instead. Mine was acting goofy on some 12AU7's I was testing. The socket saver had worked loose a little. I just took it off completely and it's fine. I have a new noval socket saver somewhere that I'll put in it when I find it.

Good deal, Andrew! Glad you got your price.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> He got a nice sum. I see some even went for more. Crazy, some of the prices are crazy high. Good for him though.



Yeah and the one's you saw probably weren't as nice as this one. 

It sold in 20 minutes. Maybe he should have made the starting price $850.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I am going to hate going to the post office tomorrow...and I feel bad for anyone behind me in line. I have 22 parcels to mail out and two of them are overseas destinations. (I am waiting on payments for 7 other orders.)

I'm hoping I was close at estimating the postage on these. I figured a single shirt would be around $2.50 or so and the bubble wrap mailer cost $1.95. Then of course there is EBAY's fees. So I have almost $6 just getting the shirts mailed out. 

But it is worth it all. I didn't do this to make money. It was great watching this go from an idea to a finished product. I am very pleased with Blue Cotton. They delivered on their promise.

And again, thanks to Alan for all of his time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-I see you have been over on the 6100 thread. I went through the last four pages and CR and Adwex were responding to a lot of comments. I guess it got out of control as Richard was banned.

I can't wait to see the new rules. It's funny they haven't posted them yet. I mean people are getting banned for breaking rules that aren't even available yet.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am out of the loop on this rules thing.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah it's pretty mixed up. Can make you feel ones walking eggs unless being appropriate all the time is someone's thing. It ain't mine. I don't worry about it for myself. If I get banned Ill start up somewhere else. I will also have access to my friends here too so its fine.

I sure as hell won't let an Internet site dictate my behavior. I can manage that well enough with the moral compass I have. If I find I don't fit in then either I get sent away or I walk. I don't do short leashes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm sure you remember Bobbo the Clown. I got a reprimand because of him. Sort of what is going on right now. He was allowed to spam threads and Flick O Flash was his buddy and let him do it. (Bobbo came here because he got banned from MLP.) He then attacked this thread and I was seriously thinking of moving on, but it was Alan and you that talked me into staying.

I can't remember if Bobbo finally got banned, but I heard rumors that he got arrested.

If the new rules make this a better forum...great. If they are NAZI in nature, then I will be concerned about that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I looked on the member's list and Bobbo is not banned and the last time he was here was 05-14-2012.


----------



## solarburn

I remember that shit. Makes you wonder what Grunches connection is...not that it matters...jus curious. I can't believe he settles for being on a short leash being the rogue member he is. Watching him try to tame himself is pure entertainment. Thanks mods.LOL

I think he likes it here.

Anyways I've had a blast here. Ill continue to have a good time too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I hate to see any "good" guy leave, especially under the circumstances like Matt. However, we both know that this isn't the first time this has happened.

I see on another thread where Cross Roads was really jumping on the Grunch. Basically stated he had one lifeline and if he screwed up, he would be gone permanently.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I hate to see any "good" guy leave, especially under the circumstances like Matt. However, we both know that this isn't the first time this has happened.
> 
> I see on another thread where Cross Roads was really jumping on the Grunch. Basically stated he had one lifeline and if he screwed up, he would be gone permanently.



Yeah that's the short leash I was referring to.

I remember the last exodus. People have a choice and they exercise that as they see fit. Right or wrong this site is a choice to be on...until banning that is hehe.:Ohno:

Like I said I really like this forum. Over others I've been on. Hope it doesn't get too weird with Alex wanting to make money off it and us rebels trying to adhere to more rules.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you paid for a MM shirt, they went out early AM this morning. Shipping was double what I thought, $4.

I'm not even gonna tell you how much it cost to ship two shirts to JOE. 

ALAN-Your shirt should be there sometime around Wednesday. 

You guys let me know what you think about the shirts.


----------



## solarburn

Man I'm looking forward to showing mine off!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well JOE, you'll like this story. As I said, I thought the Post Office opened up at 8 AM. I got there at 10 minutes after. I was pissed. I stood by the door so I could be first in line. I was pleasantly surprised when a very pretty girl (young like 19) came in thinking the Post Office was opened too. She had a tight top on with cleavage showing and cut-off jeans so short the pockets were showing (you know what I mean). Tan all over and long dark brown hair. Hello. I was chatting that up for 20 minutes, drooling the whole time. I was wearing a MM shirt and she really liked it. "So" it may be a poontang getter. That nipple tip on the tube soldier is sort of kinky.

I was so enthralled by this little beauty that I let her be first in line so I could get one more good look at her ass.

Yeah...I'm a PERV.


----------



## solarburn

A tactical perv at that!


----------



## solarburn

Well I'm off to bed. Ill catch up with you all later.

Lator!


----------



## mickeydg5

Buwr chikka bowrw bowrw.
Aint nothing perv about that. Nature at work.

And it goes both ways. Her outfit saw to that. Did she say "Thank you."?


----------



## jason_999

hey guys,
i apologize if this question from the OP has already been answered, but with the length of this thread i dont have time to read all the way through.
question, other than trying to get another tone, should the tubes be replaced? is there any advantage to swapping out tubes that work, or can you just wait until they die (if they ever do). basically just wondering if the sound quality deteriorates over time because of the age or use.

jason


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in general, vintage or NOS preamp tubes will last a very, very long time. (The same can be said about vintage/NOS power tubes.) 

CP preamp tubes do not last as long, but certain brands go much longer than others.

Weak CP tubes lowers the gain capability of the preamp circuit. A weak phase inverter tube is bad as well. 

As far as tone goes, I have customers who like weak 12AX7's in their Fender's and the tone is still there.

CP power tubes are more of a concern than CP preamp tubes, because when they die, they can harm the amp. When a preamp tube dies, it just dies.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well most of the time Fisher tubes are Amperex, Mullard or Telefunken. Am I right in saying that these are Sylvania Gray Plates? Looks like a Sylvania plate structure and the Sylvania part number with USA below it. He wants way too much for them.


----------



## mickeydg5

That looks like Sylvania to me.


----------



## RiverRatt

jason_999 said:


> hey guys,
> i apologize if this question from the OP has already been answered, but with the length of this thread i dont have time to read all the way through.
> question, other than trying to get another tone, should the tubes be replaced? is there any advantage to swapping out tubes that work, or can you just wait until they die (if they ever do). basically just wondering if the sound quality deteriorates over time because of the age or use.
> 
> jason



Jason,

It's a good idea to keep spares for your amp, especially if you're out gigging a lot. 12AX7's can be changed out without having to bias the amp or make any adjustments. Having a few on-hand is good insurance, and if your amp isn't sounding or acting right, you can replace the preamp tubes one at a time until you find the bad one. Also, you may notice that Brand A will sound different from Brand B. A lot of us are tube rollers; we try many different tubes in each preamp socket and different combinations of tubes looking for the best possible tone. Some people call it cork-sniffing, but I've yet to see anyone who tried a set of NOS preamp tubes in their amp and wasn't convinced that they are way better than current production tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, those look like Sylvanias to me, too. It's weird how distorted the glass is when you photograph it, but you can't see it when you're looking at the actual tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Something tells me that these were made just before the Philips buyout of Sylvania. Everyone still making tubes were making blank tubes for relabeling, some didn't even have the factory codes or PN/Logo's on them.

EDIT: These are definitely Sylvania's. The last tube on the right you can see the Sylvania codes peeking a little. So these do have factory codes on them. I'd like to see the codes to determine the date of MFG.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-I sent you a PM.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-I sent you a PM.



PM'd back bud!


----------



## RiverRatt

Did you guys hear about the real Svetlana plant (=C=) closing down?

Also, I'm looking for a 12" speaker for my Laney combo amp. I'd like to find something along the lines of a G12T-75 or similar. Gots tubes, pedals, parts, etc. for trade.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well keep in mind that an Eminence Man 'O War is a better sounding clone of a 75. When they are on EBAY a used one can be had for around $40. I just looked and only found new ones for sale.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Did you guys hear about the real Svetlana plant (=C=) closing down?



I've been counting the days. You've heard me say this before. I believe there will be a shake up of New Sensor brands due to the Chinese taking a bigger slice of the tube market. 

They are making some good stuff. TAD comes to mind. Excellent 6L6GC's.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well keep in mind that an Eminence Man 'O War is a better sounding clone of a 75. When they are on EBAY a used one can be had for around $40. I just looked and only found new ones for sale.



I've only had experience with Eminence Legends for the most part, other than their ubiquitous re-branded speakers that every US amp maker uses. There's a guy wanting to sell me an Eminence/Fender speaker for $60. I'm not familiar with it, but the reviews I've read online describe it as farty and flubby.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've been counting the days. You've heard me say this before. I believe there will be a shake up of New Sensor brands due to the Chinese taking a bigger slice of the tube market.
> 
> They are making some good stuff. TAD comes to mind. Excellent 6L6GC's.



It's a shame that New Sensor feels the need to offer so many different variations of every common audio tube. If they had put that much effort into producing one quality tube, it seems like it would be win/win for everyone.

I was just looking at tubes on a big Memphis boutique shop's website. They are selling PM tubes, but have other brands. I was browsing thru some of their choices and they had a Tung-Sol EL34B. It looks amazingly like the craptacular EL34G that Sovtek assaulted our ears with for years.

The Russians take the fast-food approach to tube building. The name on a fast food chain means absolutely nothing anymore. You can get the same food at just about any of them, and most of it sucks.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW if anybody runs across a speaker that's just taking up room, I need an 8 ohm.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Post a Want To Buy in the Member's Classified.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wouldn't pay $60 for that. You can get a much better speaker for less $$$.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I thought so. I was thinking I'd trade him a Tiawan TS-9 for it as I'm not using it at all. The MXR GT-OD is a better version of the TS-9 so unless I want to run them at the same time I have no reason to keep it. I have a WGS Green Beret in my DRRI right now and I was thinking I might put the Eminence in it and use the WGS speaker in my Laney, but if it's really putting out 30 watts then I might not need to do that. I think the speaker can handle 50 watts peak but I'm not sure. The Laney can crank out close to 30 watts at bedroom volume if you play with the four volume controls enough. With the pull-boosts on the tone stack engaged, it is massive sounding and the Green Beret may not be able to handle that much bass without taking a big shit.


----------



## gameshound

I know this thread is about tubes..but thought some of you guys might wanna hear what i do!!!

this is a blues tune off my new cd!!

If anybody is interested in a cd please let me know!!

https://soundcloud.com/#gameshound


----------



## RiverRatt

Not able to get there dude. I'm not a member and it goes straight to the login/sign-up screen.


----------



## solarburn

Same for me GH...wanted to hear it too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

gameshound said:


> I know this thread is about tubes..but thought some of you guys might wanna hear what i do!!!
> 
> this is a blues tune off my new cd!!
> 
> If anybody is interested in a cd please let me know!!
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/#gameshound



Mark-You can now embed Sound Cloud direct into a post. Look for the Sound Cloud icon to the right of the tool bar.

You can post your tune right into your post. This is a new feature that has just been added.

Marty


----------



## RiverRatt

Got me an odd amplifier today. Actually, it was pretty much given to me. It's an old Ampeg GU-12. The tube compliment is really weird. It uses a 12AX7, a 6U10 (Compactron - I have a few dozen), a 12DW7 PI, and a pair of 7591 output tubes. I've never owned a 7591 amp before, but I know the tubes are expensive.

The speaker has no foam left around it. It's a Quam (???) speaker that has a lovely black and pink decal on the back that says "Quam: The Sound Decision". IDK any specifics about it yet. It doesn't have a massive magnet - it's more along the lines of a Jensen C12R or C12Q. I was thinking about firing it up for a test but I think I'll put a proper 3-prong mains cable on it first. That Gemini I used to have shocked the piss out of me a couple of times. People would bump the ground switch and change the polarity and I would find out about it the hard way. At least this one doesn't have a polarity switch.


----------



## RiverRatt

Forgot to ask. Is there a close sub for the 7591 that I could use with a little re-wiring and biasing? Someone suggested a 6V6, and another site mentioned a 6GM5. Just glancing at a bunch of datasheets, it looks like a 6L6GB might be a good choice. Anybody have any info?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow that is an oddball. A Compactron and a 12DW7 PI. Why would they have used a foam surround speaker???

Yeah QUAM was a pretty popular brand in certain parts of the country. When I had my rocking 8 track in my 56 Bel Air, I made a custom speaker system using QUAM's. They sounded really good.

The 7591 and "A" are pretty scarce. A lot of people have converted their amps over to a 7868. If you have any old Bogen amps laying around with 7868's you have everything you need to do a conversion. This is the best substitute.

Also, I found this.

Substituting for the 7591


----------



## MartyStrat54

If that is what you want to do (convert to 7868's), I have some NOS one's and I will give you a pair.


----------



## chee16

So I bought this tube off ebay
Sylvania 12AX7 | eBay

When I put it in either v1 or v2 I get a ridiculous amount of crackling when I take the amp off standby. I'm guessing this means it's microphonic? Can't hear the guitar much either when I tried to play, just a ton of crackling. The description doesn't say that the tube is NOT microphonic, but it does say it was tested. I might contact the seller.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well ask them if they did a sound test in an amp? A tube can read okay on a tester and have problems in the amp.

I don't know what you paid for it, but you are stuck with the return shipping and the hassle of getting a refund.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds like it might be a grid leak. Does it sound like a ffffft found with a few pops here and there? To me it sounds like wind noise - like when you're playing outside and your mic doesn't have a windscreen.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> If that is what you want to do (convert to 7868's), I have some NOS one's and I will give you a pair.



Thanks for the offer! The first thing I did was check all the tubes (except the Compactron) and the two 7591's test new. Hopefully I won't need reacements anytime soon. Sovtek makes a 7591 but by all accounts it's just their 5881WXT with the base rewired.


----------



## chee16

I paid $13 shipped, so I'm not out much, and there is no mention of an audio test.

I looked up youtube vids of microphonic 12ax7s in amps and it doesn't sound like that at all. The crackle is pretty constant with a pop here and there. Could the tube test fine but have a grid leak?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well chee, you see there are a lot of people on EBAY that say their tube has been tested, but they don't even own a tester. They just found an old tube and they are looking to make some crack money.

Any good tester will test the grid. And yes, if it has a grid leak it will still fire up, but will be totally useless.


----------



## RiverRatt

It can be something other than the grid. This stuff is packed in there tight and you can have a "leak" with any two components that are of a different charge. It doesn't necessisarily mean the tube is unusable, but you need to try it as the cathode follower or the phase inverter to make sure it will work OK. If it's a strong tube otherwise, using it in a cathode follower position would be best. Sylvanias are usually solid tubes there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if a tube is microphonic, I say try it in the CF or PI. If it has some weird ass noise, I'll throw it away as I feel it could quit working at any time.

Also, I can't ever recall having a bad Sylvania 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just did some major tube buying on EBAY. Large lot of like new I61 Mullard's. The print is perfect on the tubes.

Also a large lot of like new Sylvania 12AX7's.

Also picked up some NIB 12AU7's as I am getting customers with the 1 watt Marshall's.

And just for grins, I bought some NIB 12AT7's to replenish my stock.

Gameshound sold me 10 Mullard's as well.

I'm still bidding on several other lots.

So far so good. I got two large lots just above the starting bid. 

I was snipe bidding as usual.


----------



## RiverRatt

Did you win any 7591's? 

I really don't need to worry about power tubes just yet. This amp is sounding pretty damned good. I can't get the tremolo to work. It may be the 6U10.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chances are that's where the problem may be. That's cool that the amp fired up and is playing. I'm always afraid of just plugging in old amps. I've got a damn good industrial variac to bring old amps to life.

Can you test Compactron's? I can on the 707, but it is only an emissions test. At least it will give you a yeah or a nay.

Post a pic of that amp showing the chassis if you can. I'd like to see what an odd duck it is.

Does it have a selectable OPT? What speaker are you using it with?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Remember when I posted this somewhere many pages ago?

Compactron Tubes: A Junkbox Guide

6U10-Twin Medium-Mu Triodes + Hi-Mu Triode


----------



## RiverRatt

It's 8 ohms with only the internal speaker connected. There's not a speaker out or anything. 

Remember that old Utah 85w speaker I picked up that had the red frame and big-ass black bell housing? It's that one. It's got some good breakup when you open the amp up a bit. This is the second Ampeg I've had from this particular era, and both have had an incredible "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" tone. I'm gonna try to hang on to this one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Isn't that the speaker that we all were researching and Mickey found an old Realistic ad showing it, or one like it?

I remember seeing that picture before.

Well, I've been on here long enough. Time for some horizontal.


----------



## johnfv

Ever come home from a gig and even though you are dead tired you still need some time to wind down before you can sleep? I may be the only forum "regular" in North America still awake right now. Sweet dreams MFers!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, the "gig high". I think that happens to everyone. My wife does community theatre and she's the same way.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Isn't that the speaker that we all were researching and Mickey found an old Realistic ad showing it, or one like it?
> 
> I remember seeing that picture before.
> 
> Well, I've been on here long enough. Time for some horizontal.



Yes, that's the same speaker. It haven't liked it with other amps and cabs but it does well in the Ampeg.


----------



## gameshound

hello

I will try this again!!
hope irt works!!

https://soundcloud.com/gameshound/jonny-move-the-mountain[SC][/SC]

Let me know what ya think

Gameshound


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very nice. Smooth tone and arrangement.

Canadian blues...now you don't hear that everyday.


----------



## RiverRatt

Great song for a boring and hot Sunday afternoon in June. I really like the relaxed, laid back groove. That's the kind of tune I could jam on for 20 minutes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well yes it was hot here yesterday, but I noticed it was getting dark at around 3 PM. I started entertaining thoughts of mowing the yard and taking advantage of the cloud cover. Well at 5 PM I put on my work clothes and went outside. Then it started to rain. At first I thought it was going to peter out quick, but then it started to thunder and the rain just poured down. We ended up getting almost an inch and a half in 45 minutes. This was not what the weather guy had predicted. He said a possibility for light showers and that if you had outdoor plans they wouldn't be ruined. Yeah right.

Well now they are saying a real good chance for rain tonight and a better chance tomorrow and a possibility of rain on Monday and Tuesday.

My backyard looks like a pasture. There were cottontails in the backyard this morning eating the tall grass. (I just mowed 5 days ago.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

*Red guitars rock!!!*


----------



## solarburn

gameshound said:


> hello
> 
> I will try this again!!
> hope irt works!!
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/gameshound/jonny-move-the-mountain[SC][/SC]
> 
> Let me know what ya think
> 
> Gameshound


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> *Red guitars rock!!!*



Got my shirts bud!

Sizing is perfect!

Looks tits!!!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's great. I was wondering how much slower Parcel Post would be versus First Class. Everyone has received their shirts, except for the one's I sent to the UK and Australia.

Sorry your shipping was so high. These new postage rates are stupid. I just mailed Mark (gameshound) 3 shirts and the shipping for 1 pound 10 ounces was $15. I sent a package to Australia for $15.75. 

I used the same mailers with the same shirt size with the same weight and although the locations were different, they were similar in distance and one would be $3.09 and the other would be $3.94.

I don't try to figure it out. All I know is the Post Office is going broke.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hell yeah they do. I've been rocking this one. I got it on Friday. I traded a guy a recent TS-9 and an old POS acoustic for it. I love running across people who think that the MIJ Kramers were crap. I didn't get a bad guitar; I basically ended up with a real deal ESP. I've got the Floyd cranked down on the deck with enough spring tension to hold it there unless you really, really want to do a dive bomb. 






I'm going to have to dig into that Ampeg amp and see what's up with the tremolo. I was messing around with it this morning and it's definitely not the tubes. There's not much on the board so maybe it'll be an easy fix. It's like the Intensity pot is shunting the signal to ground. Gotta find whatever burned out. It's in a strange place in the circuit. It uses 1/2 of the 12AX7, then the 6U10 does reverb duties. All the schematics I've found so far are fairly low-res GIF files. I would do better to read the one on the chassis cover.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well yes it was hot here yesterday, but I noticed it was getting dark at around 3 PM. I started entertaining thoughts of mowing the yard and taking advantage of the cloud cover. Well at 5 PM I put on my work clothes and went outside. Then it started to rain. At first I thought it was going to peter out quick, but then it started to thunder and the rain just poured down. We ended up getting almost an inch and a half in 45 minutes. This was not what the weather guy had predicted. He said a possibility for light showers and that if you had outdoor plans they wouldn't be ruined. Yeah right.
> 
> Well now they are saying a real good chance for rain tonight and a better chance tomorrow and a possibility of rain on Monday and Tuesday.
> 
> My backyard looks like a pasture. There were cottontails in the backyard this morning eating the tall grass. (I just mowed 5 days ago.)



I went out and fired the grill up with the sun shining. By the time it got ready for the steaks, I had to drag it into the garage because a thunderstorm had popped up. It felt nice and cool with the wind blowing. Then the storm blew over and it was 90 degrees and 99% humidity again. You almost need gills to survive a summer here.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well we had a lot stronger storm go over. Even had hail. It rained quite a bit and another storm may hit in about an hour or so. Plus there is a 70% chance of rain tomorrow.

As long as there isn't a tornado, I don't mind the rain. It was so dry when I moved here last summer I am glad to see as much rain as possible. I even had to spend $700 to get a big tree in my backyard pruned due to it being in shock from the drought. It's a big maple tree and it looks a lot better since we had a wet Spring.

I would like to see some more rain this month and then if it becomes dry in July and August, we will have had enough rain to see us through until the fall.

The only red guitar I have is my Schecter. I bought it in 2004. JOE remembers this story.

I almost bought a 2004 Gold Top Tele with DiMarzio Super Distortion humbuckers that was MIK. The price on it was around $440 with case. I ended up getting the Schecter. It has abalone binding and neck inlays and nice wood. I didn't have to swap out the tuners or any other hardware. 

Anyways, it is MIK as well and I paid about the same for it as the GT Tele. Well if I was to sell the Schecter, as nice looking as it is, it is about a $275-$300 guitar. Fender just came out with the Gold Top Tele again and now it is $700. 

I could kick myself in the ass, because I just don't play the Schecter and I sold my 2009 USA Tele, because I didn't gel with it tone wise. That's why I was gassing for the MIK Spalted Maple Tele with the SD Humbuckers. 

It doesn't matter where a Fender is made. A used one will sell for more than a Schecter.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Pretty quiet over here.

I tested a large batch of Mullards and Sylvanias and there were two bad ones, both were shorted and the Mullard failed the grid test.

The seller sold these as "untested and no returns." However I am covered with the EBAY Buyer Protection. I sent the seller an email and if I don't hear from him by tomorrow, I'll file a claim. On a per unit price, these two bad tubes cost me $52.

The seller didn't even know they were Mullards. His auction title said, "White Letter Fishers." By doing this, his auction went under the radar. I had to outbid five guys and the tubes looked pristine so I paid the max I wanted to. They are all I63's.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice grab.
It will be interesting to hear how the buyer protection works in this case. Let us know whether simple or more complicated.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I believe I'll get my money.

When? That's the real question.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Mickey, I already got my full refund. I sent the seller a message and even though he stated no returns, he submitted my refund this morning.

Done!


----------



## mickeydg5

That is cool.
I was wondering what or how the buyer protection would cover, but it sounds like the seller refunded the value of the bad tubes right quick.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some auctions are covered by PayPal and some go through the EBAY buyer protection. Either way, you have to initiate a complaint to the resolution center against the seller. 

I believe if it is resolved through EBAY, they make up the refund. If it goes through PayPal, they deduct the amount from the seller's PayPal account.


----------



## RiverRatt

When Hong Kong Phooey filed a lost package claim against me on that Mullard mC1, it was filed exactly 13 days after the ship date. It was filed with eBay but my entire Paypal balance was frozen until it was resolved. As I needed the Paypal money immediately, I had no choice other than refunding the little bitch's money. I am trying to do my selling on other sites like reverb.com. eBay is stacked against the seller. They take 10% of your sale price, they take a percentage of your Paypal payments received, then they allow a dishonest buyer to freeze your account to extort a refund from you. I'm through with them. I filed a case against the buyer, then I find out that they just file the info until they see a pattern, then they may or may not ban the seller. You never even get the satisfaction of finding out if something was done to the buyer. 

I've been selling stuff on eBay since the 1990's, I have 100% positive feedback without ever having a claim filed against me, and apparently that means nothing.

Rant over.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said when the Hong Kong incident was first brought up here, I limit my sales to usually the lower 48 states. I don't even want to ship to Alaska or Hawaii.

This has worked well for me and I haven't had any recent issues.

I will say that I started using EBAY in 2004, because I was getting into buying/selling tubes and I was also refurbishing old tube amps. (At one time I had over a dozen Bogen amps.) There is definitely a learning curve in regard to who you buy from. And yes, the rules have changed dramatically since 2004. The buyer has 80 percent of the "rights" and the seller has 20 percent.

I have to use EBAY. I just have a knack for involving myself in a good transaction.

And I like to snipe bid!


----------



## mickeydg5

Man, sorry to hear all of that. I remember it. And where is the mC1 today?
I hope everything works out and you find positives avenues to do business.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ching Fu Looey has it and he got it for free.


----------



## solarburn

Evilbay. Abusing the system gets u free stuff. Thieves find a way don't they ...


----------



## RiverRatt

It was a sweet tube, too. I found it inside some old piece of test equipment. Shield logo and print were 99% intact. Other than a slight yellowing of the print, it looked like it was new. I didn't even want to sell it, but I knew it would go high. I just made the stupid mistake of selling it overseas. 

I'm sure I'll have to use eBay again; it's just too damned convenient despite the pitfalls and expenses, but I still don't like it. I'm only going to use it for small items like tubes, parts, etc. and no more shipping ANYWHERE that doesn't provide a reliable tracking service.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well, speaking of Evil Bay, I just scored 20 Raytheon Black Plates "cheap." The seller has a B&K 707 and the tubes tested with a low of 27 and a high of 36. All good strong clean tubes. They are all Raytheon labeled tubes. Usually I get them with an organ brand.

Most of them were balanced within a + or - of 2 points.

Remember Green Girl, Alan? I used to buy from her back in 2006-2007, but then she got to pricing her tubes high. Well it's even worse now. She has Ray BP's for $86 a pair in 4 or 5 auctions.

I'm trying to buy up as many BP's as I can. They are really popular as I use them almost exclusively behind a Philips brand V1.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, I've quit watching her auctions. Too much uncertainty with her test scores to pay that kind of money. She's got a Hickok that's essentially like mine, but she doesn't know how to read it or something.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I recall you saying that. And it's a small world as her brother-in-law is one of my wholesale dealers. He and Greengirl used to do business with each other but they had a riff and he doesn't have anything to do with her anymore.

And he too is selling tubes with a busted tester. I've sent back several batches because of low test scores. He told me the other day he found someone to fix it. He has a Hickok.


----------



## Georgiatec

Alan & Marty....While Marty's cartoon 12ax7 avatar looks like, as intended, a Roman soldier, Alan's looks like some dude wearing a huge condom.


----------



## RiverRatt

Okay, **** it. I'm going back to being a deadhead. Freud would have had a field day with you people. I'm more Jungian. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


----------



## mickeydg5

So, who be GreenGirl's brother-in-law?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, **** it. I'm going back to being a deadhead. Freud would have had a field day with you people. I'm more Jungian. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.



Damn...I liked the fact that there were two tube guy avatars.

Georgiatech is from the UK Alan, what does he know? Only kidding, Tony.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> So, who be GreenGirl's brother-in-law?



PM sent.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damn...I liked the fact that there were two tube guy avatars.
> 
> Georgiatech is from the UK Alan, what does he know? Only kidding, Tony.



I guess I just don't think about condoms. I don't use condoms. I don't like condoms. Who wants to get a massage wearing a raincoat (mac for you UK dwellers)? Thanks to that philosophy we have a third child, but it was worth it. Women should know better than to let the man be responsible for the birth control. They don't trust us with anything else. After that one she got me fixed, but I've been riding bareback ever since.


----------



## chee16

RiverRatt said:


> I guess I just don't think about condoms. I don't use condoms. I don't like condoms. Who wants to get a massage wearing a raincoat (mac for you UK dwellers)? Thanks to that philosophy we have a third child, but it was worth it. Women should know better than to let the man be responsible for the birth control. They don't trust us with anything else. After that one she got me fixed, but I've been riding bareback ever since.



You got it! But we are stopping at 2, not 3  For the record I thought the avatar was cool, never thought of a condom


----------



## sccloser

OK fellas.....

I have veered over into the darkside...lol...and picked up a little Mesa Boogie Subway Rocket Reverb combo. It is a little 20w combo with an EV 10 speaker, two channel amp. Has 4 12ax7's and 2 el84's. I got it as a grab and go for blues jams. I have been using my Marshall class 5, but I can't really get it to clean up much and I was kinda looking for something that had a little more of a Fenderish tone. Found the Boogie for a good deal so decided to try it out.

The clean channel and reverb are fine. There is a contour mode for the od and it sounds ok just kind of metal. But the OD on this sucks. Sounds too midrangey and nasaly. Can't really adjust it out. Not as prominent at higher volumes, but this little thing gets loud so it is difficult to play it even with a band at that volume.

I have read on the boogie forums that changing the v1 could help this issue. I have some NOS RCA's, gray and black plates, GE's, a bunch Sylvanias, etc. What would you guys recommend for a Boogie? I want to tame this thing.

Not sure if I want to "waste" a mullard, amperex or telefunken on it...lol!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I'm not familiar with that amp, so it sounds like you will just have to do some good old fashion tube rolling.

Give your stash a go in V1 and then use what's left to roll in V2.

One of those 12AX7's is probably a reverb driver, like V3?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Sovtek EL34G hands-down, followed closely by any 12AX7 made east of Germany, Yugoslavia and Hungary since the 1970's.



Alan-Are you saying you don't like Tungsrams? I thought in the past you had good reviews on them.


----------



## RiverRatt

The Tungsrams were made in Hungary. I have three right now and they see use in every amp I have.

Vic, try GE's, RCA's and Raytheons. An old NOS 5751 GE or Sylvania might kick it a little more into Fender territory, too.


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> I guess I just don't think about condoms. I don't use condoms. I don't like condoms. Who wants to get a massage wearing a raincoat (mac for you UK dwellers)? Thanks to that philosophy we have a third child, but it was worth it. Women should know better than to let the man be responsible for the birth control. They don't trust us with anything else. After that one she got me fixed, but I've been riding bareback ever since.



Been there done that......after kid #4. The novocane the doc gave me didn't take and I felt *EVERYTHING*. The fishing around for the tube to snip felt like having an eggbeater in my applebag. Still, I stopped at the bar on my way home for a drink to celebrate putting an end to that shit. I said it then and still stand behind the statement now that I would do it again in a heartbeat vs having another kid. 

BTW, WTF does this have to do with tubes?


----------



## RiverRatt

Well, it kinda is related to tubes, the kind you snip, tie off and cauterize; not the ones you put in an amp. That's what I like about this thread. We take a weird side trip from time to time. We'll get back to the glass ones pretty soon I'm sure.

How ya been, bro? I haven't seen you on here in awhile. I was thinking the other day that I needed to get with you about a Silvertone amp. I have a Silvertone 1484 chassis that is going to need at minimum a new power transformer. Would you happen to know the specs?


----------



## Riffraff

Been stupid busy at work. I haven't been on much recently because my internet at home has been down for a few days and I've been too busy to get around to sitting on hold with the ISP. On a positive note, my Skip Simmons rebuilt Masco is due to arrive tomorrow and I'm really looking forward to checking that out. 

I just looked at the 1484 schem and PT looks like a real oddball. 

http://www.webphix.com/schematic heaven/www.schematicheaven.com/bargainbin/silvertone1484.pdf

You could try Mojotone. They have reproduction transformers they are using in their 1484 & 1485 kits. You can probably buy one of those to use. 

Mercury Magnetics lists one for $160 (SIL-1484-P). I know, pretty steep for project amp to tinker with. You may be able to buy a parts donor chassis with a blown OT for less than that.

While searching I also found this suggestion: 

"_Looks like dual 100V windings and a 25V bias winding plus 6.3V at 3.5A. You WON'T find one unless you find the lost Silvertone graveyard... but you can use Hammond 273CZ if it fits... if not maybe somenthing else does... Hammond Mfg. - "Classic" Power Transformer - (263-282 Series)
You'd use a two-diode full-wave rectifier, series the 6 and 5V windings and use a dubler for bias. Add a cathode resistor if the bias isn't enough. Lower the 6L6 grid resistors to 100K (max value on teh 6L6 data sheet)

I would start with finding something that fits, then see about making it work. Easier than finding one with exactly the right voltages and trying to make it fit..."_


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan I have a dealer account with Mojo Tone. I looked and all they had was an OPT for the 1484.


----------



## Stymie13

Picked up a few choice NOS pre-amp tubes from Marty today. Best prices and service for quality tested old glass anywhere. Can't wait to roll these babies in my Orange. Thanks Marty!


----------



## solarburn

I've got his sleazy toobs in my Orange too!

I feel like such a whore when I play it...but it's so satisfying don't care if I am.


----------



## Stymie13

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've got his sleazy toobs in my Orange too!
> 
> I feel like such a whore when I play it...but it's so satisfying don't care if I am.



Ha-ha! If I wasn't so broke I'd go for a fresh round in the DSL100 again too. Man, these Sylvania gray plates are bad ass. Although I bought it for a PI I like it way better up front where it has a much more profound effect. The Amperex seemed a little anemic in V1 by comparison but balances V2 nicely by smoothing out some top end harshness, sweetening the upper mids and tightening the massive low on the crunch channel.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think anybody who's been here for any length of time is running a few Martimus tubes. He fed my addiction to Raytheon black plates and RFT EL34's. I should have kept that DSL50 I had back then.


----------



## RiverRatt

Stymie13 said:


> Ha-ha! If I wasn't so broke I'd go for a fresh round in the DSL100 again too. Man, these Sylvania gray plates are bad ass. Although I bought it for a PI I like it way better up front where it has a much more profound effect. The Amperex seemed a little anemic in V1 by comparison but balances V2 nicely by smoothing out some top end harshness, sweetening the upper mids and tightening the massive low on the crunch channel.



Stymie, check out a Tungsram in V1 if you get a chance. Anemic isn't in its vocabulary. They are becoming my go-to tube.


----------



## Stymie13

The combo of Tele smooth plate in V1 and Raytheon BP in V2 of a DSL is a thing of beauty.


----------



## solarburn

Stymie13 said:


> The combo of Tele smooth plate in V1 and Raytheon BP in V2 of a DSL is a thing of beauty.



Absolutely.


----------



## Stymie13

RiverRatt said:


> Stymie, check out a Tungsram in V1 if you get a chance. Anemic isn't in its vocabulary. They are becoming my go-to tube.



I have one Carvin labeled Tungsram from the early 90s and it's a microphonic stinker. I posted photos of it here years ago to identify it but its bunk. I'd love to try a good one!


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a batch 5 years ago or so that were all microphonic to a degree. I guess I've been lucky; none of the recent ones have been the least bit microphonic. I don't know if any of you guys know Terry Kilgore, but he said that Lita Ford brought in her Marshalls for a pre-tour checkup and general going-over and all her 12AX7's were Tungsram.

I've even been running a Tungsram in the first gain stage for the vibrato channel on my DRRI and I really like it a lot. It sounds BIG. I also read somewhere that Raytheon black plates made good tubes in Fenders for the first gain stage and that seems to be true. I still like the Tungsram better. I wish I had another Sylvania 5751 lying around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Stymie13 said:


> Man, these Sylvania gray plates are bad ass. Although I bought it for a PI I like it way better up front where it has a much more profound effect.



The Sylvania Grey Plate is a very underrated tube. Works well in all slots. A lot of the high gain guys love them because they are...well high gain tubes.

And they don't sound bad at all. Lots of people use them in V1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Stymie, check out a Tungsram in V1 if you get a chance. Anemic isn't in its vocabulary. They are becoming my go-to tube.



A used Tungsram has more gain than any new CP tube. Even the Shuguang's.

(Or I should say that at least 90 percent of them do.)

Very high test scores.


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know if any of you guys know Terry Kilgore, but he said that Lita Ford brought in her Marshalls for a pre-tour checkup and general going-over and all her 12AX7's were Tungsram.
> 
> I've even been running a Tungsram in the first gain stage for the vibrato channel on my DRRI and I really like it a lot. It sounds BIG. I also read somewhere that Raytheon black plates made good tubes in Fenders for the first gain stage and that seems to be true. I still like the Tungsram better. I wish I had another Sylvania 5751 lying around.



Interesting guy that I don't see around much on forums anymore. I used to enjoy reading his DLR horror stories.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah I remember the DLR days, but isn't Dave a walking horror story? Terry is a trip. Good guy but very erratic. He was tubetramp on The Gear Page but I don't think he's there anymore. Last I heard he was Sgt. Valve or something like that. Marty and I tried to get into this huge "bucketfull" of Sonotone 12AX7's with side-getters. They look like an RCA clear top 12AU7 but the glass is more smoky looking. Great tubes! Anyway, he never came through on the deal. It was still a blast talking to him. He'd write a 2-page dissertation on the properties of one tube without a coherent sentence in the lot. He doesn't believe in punctuation either.


----------



## Riffraff

RiverRatt said:


> He'd write a 2-page dissertation on the properties of one tube without a coherent sentence in the lot. He doesn't believe in punctuation either.



 Yeah, that's what I remember too.


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan I have a dealer account with Mojo Tone. I looked and all they had was an OPT for the 1484.



That's what they have listed in the Silvertone tranny section but they sell 1484 repro kits and are using something in those. I appears you have to call because they never bothered to list it separately in the transformer section.


----------



## chee16

Opinions please oh tube gurus! (and others that have more experience then me)

I just won a couple more preamps on ebay, I'm just looking for any info people know about them, I will obviously roll them through my amp, but more info is better. Thank you!

12AX7A GE Grey Plate Tube Strong 1964 | eBay

12AX7 GE Vacuum Radio Tube | eBay

I got them for under $6 each, but the shipping brings that up a bit.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Please don't tell me you are paying $13 to have one tube shipped to you? (The bottom link for the 12AX7 GE.) If you are, you got raped. Granted, you live in Canada and trust me, I know how stupid the postage is between the USA and Canada, but $13??? Crazy!

The GE is a great, all purpose tube. I'll take one of them over a CP tube any day. They are on the bright side, but no big deal. You can try them as a gain stage tube, but they work great in the cathode follower and phase inverter slots.


----------



## chee16

Not crazy shipping, but still not amazing. The one tube was great, the guy posted $4 anywhere in North America including Canada and he was true to it. The other was just under $10. $10 is the norm for shipping tubes no matter what. There is one seller whose shipping rate calculates to $1, but is the description he says that it isn't $1 and to email for quotes. So I did. $15 for one tube! He said $14 to ship plus $1 for packaging fee. WTF? He is in BC, so not border issues.

Thanks for the info Marty, I was pretty sure that GE tubes were good all purpose tubes like you said. 

Is is just me or are the Sylvanias going up in price a little on ebay?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sylvania's are probably the most available 12AX7 on EBAY. They vary in price. The real clean one's will demand at least $15 each.


----------



## chee16

I've just been looking lately and there are lots, but haven't really seen anything under $15, most were around $20. I have a long grey plate sylvania that is nice, figured a couple more couldn't hurt. I am slowly becoming the one guy of my friends that actually pays attention to the tubes in my amp


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good for you. Nothing wrong with getting into tubes.


----------



## chee16

I just found a great combination today for my preamps, I had read somewhere that someone liked long plates in their v1 (for the cleans) and short plates in the v2 (for the OD) so I tried this setup:
v1-raytheon long black plate
v2-rca short grey plate
v3-ge 12ax7a
v4-jan philips 12ax7wa

Not sure about the v4 yet, but I really like the tones I am getting now. To me it has that vintage sound, smooth with a little crunch when chording.


----------



## MartyStrat54

V4 is a great slot for the JAN.


----------



## RiverRatt

How's this for a PI tube? I was testing some of those used JAN-12AX7WA green print Sylvanias and had one that tested at 68/82 with 32 being minimum good (60%). That's hell and gone above 100%. We've got to come up with a new acronym for these high-gain freaks of nature. NOS-HG? HNOS? TNOS (thermo-nuclear old stock)? I had another one that was just under it at like 62/72. I don't know why these Sylvanias are so hot, but they consistently test higher than any other tubes I commonly encounter. I mean, if I get a decent tube that tests in the 40s on my TV-7, it's a nice, strong tube. If it's a Sylvania that tests that low, I think it must be worn out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Remember that scorcher I posted the test scores on? You and Mickey couldn't believe it.

Yes, Sylvania's can be crazy hot.

Try it in V1 and report back here.


----------



## mickeydg5

HONOS (ho'nos) or NOSHO (nos'ho), whichever you prefer.
high output new old stock


----------



## chee16

I just started drooling......


----------



## RiverRatt

That super-hot Sylvania would be at 113% and 136.6% and that's for a used tube! The spec calls for 1,600 umhO's for a 12AX7; that would translate to 1,700 and 2,050. The plate resistance is another part of the equation that makes a tube high-gain or not. 

If anybody wants a good read about 12AX7's and gain, go check this gearpage.net page. Myles111 is Myles Rose, formerly of Groove Tubes. He knows his tubes, and this is an excellent read if you want to understand what those 12AX7's are adding to your tone in their various positions in the amp.

Highest true gain production 12AX7 tube [Archive] - The Gear Page

I wish we could get Myles to start hanging out here. I don't know if he's even active on any of the forums anymore.


----------



## mickeydg5

Plate resistance is relative to other characteristics.
A specific tube with higher than average internal resistances will have lower than average mutual conductance and vice versa.
Gm = Mu / rp
transconductance = amplification factor divided by plate resistance

Also as a tube wears out internal resistances go up dropping efficiency.


----------



## RiverRatt

More good info! Can you measure the plate resistance correctly with a cold tube, or does it need to be in the circuit and powered up?


----------



## mickeydg5

Last I checked I could not measure gas resistance with my ohmmeter. Ha, ha, ha. That is me trying to be funny.

The tube has to be operational for testing. As far as a meter is concerned, with no electron flow there is infinite resistance between electrodes. When they say "plate resistance" that is resistance in the flow of electrons from the cathode to the plate. It is unseen, imaginary or witchcraft if you will. But it is there and is real when called upon.

Makes you feel like a sorcerer, doesn't it?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that was a stupid question. I know how the cathode/screen/anode thing works, but my brain is another matter.

I guess my question should have been "how can you measure plate resistance?". Is it even possible with a DMM?


----------



## mickeydg5

No, I think a meter is useless for measuring anything but voltage and current.
A vacuum tube's characteristics such as plate resistance are dynamic being tested under working conditions. Therefore we have tube testers.

I am sure you can attempt to measure and calculate plate resistance but it would be under dynamic conditions. Plate resistance is equal to a change in AC parameters being a change in plate voltage divided by the corresponding change in plate current.

Das abowt'it mon.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Based on what Myles said, most CP 12AX7's are just a little stouter than a NOS 5751. Maybe that's why some guys don't hear much of a difference between a CP 12AX7 in V1 versus a 5751 in V1.

Mickey-Do you know anything about the Amplitrex 1000 and the Maxi-Matcher? I wonder which one is best? I would like to know if they both work basically the same, or if one is the better design.

I would also like to know more about that damn Orange tester. Supposedly you can match tubes via the LED indicator. I'd like to know how they do this since the unit does not have a high voltage power supply.

Got any info?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's one for $165. It's a Mercury tester. Probably just an emissions model.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I read up on the Orange tester. I also checked out the PDF owner's manual.

It has 19V going in and supposedly it can generate 380V (with very little current).

The feature I'm most interested in is the matching. 

I would like to use it to compare the results of my B and K 707. In other words, if the 707 says two 6L6GC's are close, I would like to see what the Orange says.

VT1000 - Orange AmplificationOrange Amplification


----------



## chee16

Since when did ebay have import charges listed? WTF? Does this mean this is a business that MUST charge import fees? I have seen it on a couple items lately and it seems like crap to me. Plus it adds another $4 to a tube, that already has $14 shipping? Good luck with that.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know of the Amplitrex and Maximatchers.
Amplitrex is a modern tube tester.
Maximatchers perform most standard test I believe but limited to specific common or current production tubes. Its convenience is testing 4 at a time.
Orange VT-1000 is the little guy, one tube at a time, specific tubes and 19V power. I have seen nowhere where it states testing voltages.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They state this about the flashover test.



> At what voltage does the VT1000 test for flashover?
> 
> Flashover test voltage for all valve types 380V DC although the current is limited to prevent large “firework” displays.



They do not state any voltage figures regarding the other test functions.


----------



## RiverRatt

Isn't one of the high tech matchers built around a digitized Hickok 539C?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Maximatcher Power tube tester | Tubes | El Paso, Texas 79925 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh, the VT-1000 has 380V for flashover test. It must have a small step-up transformer.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...I would like to use it to compare the results of my B and K 707. In other words, if the 707 says two 6L6GC's are close, I would like to see what the Orange says...


send 'em to me and I'll let you know


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that wouldn't be to convenient.

I'm trying to justify the $500 price tag.


----------



## johnfv

*More fun with the VT1000*



MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that wouldn't be to convenient.
> 
> I'm trying to justify the $500 price tag.


I was kidding around... but I will definitely test those TAD EL34s when I get them and provide the numbers. Had some time to play more with my VT1000 today and tested the tubes in my Showman. I last re-tubed it back in the mid 80s  but to my ear it still sounds great. This amp has had a quiet life in recent years but saw a lot of gigs (and rehearsal) as the clean amp in my 2 amp rig back when I was in Lance Keltner's band. The fact that it still sounds great says a lot for the quality of the glass - GT labeled, you guys identified the 12AX7s as Tungsram and the 6L6s as RCA. The VT1000 confirms what my ear tells me - still plenty of gain and life in them! The RCA 6L6s are still very closely matched (3 rate 10, the other 9). 

Marty, some 12AX7 numbers that might be of interest:
Tele you labeled as 28-29 the VT1000 shows as 7 (balanced)
Amperex you labeled as 33-33 VT1000 shows as 9 (balanced)

Perhaps my most interesting test today: JAN Phillips 12AT7WC, the VT1000 shows it as 8-12 (I ran twice to confirm). Need to try that for an UNbalanced PI 

Have a Happy Independence Day fellow MFers!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well keep in mind the following. I don't believe in a balanced PI, because of many variables in an amps circuit. I've even stated that people have used 12DW7's in the PI. Most people couldn't tell the difference between the 12DW7 and a 12AX7. With this in mind, a slightly unbalanced PI tube is not an issue in any guitar amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

chee16 said:


> Since when did ebay have import charges listed? WTF? Does this mean this is a business that MUST charge import fees? I have seen it on a couple items lately and it seems like crap to me. Plus it adds another $4 to a tube, that already has $14 shipping? Good luck with that.



That's why I ship my tubes to Canada as a gift and under value them so no duty is imposed. I do this with all my out of country customers.


----------



## chee16

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's why I ship my tubes to Canada as a gift and under value them so no duty is imposed. I do this with all my out of country customers.



Thank you! We already have to pay high shipping fees! Haha. I just wondered if it was something ebay imposed on business accounts, wasn't sure if anyone sold stuff on there as a business.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well keep in mind the following. I don't believe in a balanced PI, because of many variables in an amps circuit. I've even stated that people have used 12DW7's in the PI. Most people couldn't tell the difference between the 12DW7 and a 12AX7. With this in mind, a slightly unbalanced PI tube is not an issue in any guitar amp.


Didn't someone do demos with a PI swap out for 12AX7 and 12DW7? I do not remember listening to one. I sure would like to hear that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

A lot of EBAY sellers state they will not devalue their item on declaration forms.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Didn't someone do demos with a PI swap out for 12AX7 and 12DW7? I do not remember listening to one. I sure would like to hear that.



I've done it and Alan did it. Neither one of us were impressed with the 12DW7.

I had found a sound clip of it, but now I can't find it to repost.

This was sort of like when we all got on a 12BZ7 kick for V1. We all got over it pretty damn quick. The clean channel goes to shit on a DSL/TSL and even worse in a single channel amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think when it comes to a 12DW7 in the PI slot it may sound a little different in some amplifiers but the amplifier will feel the difference more than you will hear it.

A 12BZ7 will make for a monstrous signal when placed up front, probably just too much especially for some amplifier's front end.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. One thing I remember is that the human ear can't differentiate between super low distortion and higher distortion, especially on hifi systems. I mean can you tell the difference between .01THD and 1.0THD? I can't.

And you are right, electronically, the 12DW7 makes a difference in the signal, but to a human ear...how much can we tell?

Yeah, some other guy on another forum was telling how great a 12BZ7 was in V1. Well we gave it a go and it wasn't anything good.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...the human ear can't differentiate...


I tried a couple of balanced PI tubes a few years back - I couldn't hear it. I was totally serious about wanting to try that seriously UNbalanced 12AT7WC, if nothing else to see what difference it makes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have compared 12DW7's and the equivalent 7247 in place of a 12AX7 and I could hear the difference caused by the low mU side of the tube. I know I've mentioned it on here before but I didn't do any sound clips. To me, the effect was something like running a stereo rig with one amp set to clean and the other one a little dirty. It's not a sound I would want to use.

That Ampeg GU-12 combo that I was working on used a 12DW7 phase inverter. It was an early 70's amp. The Ampeg Gemini GV-22 I used to have used a 7199 PI. I lived in constant fear of having to replace that thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If I recall correctly, Big Dooley used a 12DW7 in one of his stereo amp setups to see if it would fatten up the sound.

Mickey, it was the thread where we all were talking about phase relationship in a signal. 

I think the OP's original question was he had a thin sounding 2 amp, 2 cab rig and everyone was chiming in on what could be causing it.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

I tried the 12DW7 for a while and couldn't really hear a difference as much as i really wanted to... 
Do i remember correctly, that the Marshall circuit is already "lopsided" in the PI?


----------



## RiverRatt

No effort is made to perfectly balance the two triodes in a Marshall's phase inverter. It could be balanced by some freak mismatched components coming together in just the right way, but I'd say the odds of that happening are somewhere between getting struck by lightning or winning the lottery.


----------



## RiverRatt

Any of you guys familiar enough with 12AY7's to tell me if this is one? I think I've owned a grand total of one 12AY7 and it was a GE that was clearly labeled. I can't tell if this is a "V" or a "Y". Maybe the TV-7 will shed some light on it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a 12AV7. Very similar to the gain of a 12AY7, but the 12AY7 is the better preamp tube.

Check this out.

Billm Analyzes 12A*7 Family Tubes in a Blues Junior


----------



## mickeydg5

A standard long tail phase inverter is designed to be matched or closely matched at its outputs but not perfect of course.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> That's a 12AV7. Very similar to the gain of a 12AY7, but the 12AY7 is the better preamp tube.
> 
> Check this out.
> 
> Billm Analyzes 12A*7 Family Tubes in a Blues Junior



Yeah, the test scores proved that it's a 12AV7, and a very weak one at that. Glad I only paid $1 for it! 

That's OK. In the same deal, I got an RCA 6L6GC black plate, a Sylvania 6L6GC, a 6BQ5, and a ribbed plate Telefunken 12AX7. I could have bought the whole tube caddy and all tubes for $50, but all that was interesting was a handful of 12AT7's and a copy of the RCA RC-14 Receiving Tube Manual. I think it was $5 well-spent. I about shit when the guy said $1 per tube! I was expecting more like $10 or $20 per. He wanted $10 for the book. I don't care about any of those pre-12AX7 editions. I have a PDF file of most of them anyway.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I have an RC-19, which is about the best issue. I have seven more of these manuals stored on my hard drive.

Of course, it is a lot easier to take the manual and quickly look up a tube, versus having to do it on the computer.

Oh and for whatever reason, most of the 12AV7's and 12AY7's I have come across were worn out. Probably because they were being used in a TV set as a mixer or oscillator.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have several 12AV7's that are NOS-NIB. Let me know if you need any. I don't have a use for them.


----------



## johnfv

Hey guys, I'm hearing a bit of hum in my old Showman now and posted a question about replacing the electrolytics on the main board here. Expert advice appreciated!
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/51883-fender-showman.html#post914477


----------



## ReiGnMaN

Okay Marty I have something I figured I'd ask in here out of fun/enlightenment. 

My Randall Pro Tube 1000 - My Randall RGT100 ES - My Marshall JCM 800 

ALL are acting microphonic and have issues. 

Now, here's the steps taken:
Amps were discharged, visually inspected, terminal sockets cleaned then pushed over slightly on EVERY preamp tube. 

Now: Every tube I list here tested WELL over the good range on my Jackson tester. These tubes were all tried and tapped. SO much so they were feeding back and acting microphonic in my jcm800 that just touching my fingertip to the power/standby switch was like someone was tapping a glass cup.

5: Long Plate Telefunkens
3: RCA 7025 long plates
1: Tungsgram long plate
1: Silvertone Long Plate (suspected mullard)
3: JJ Gold Pin Long Plates
1: National Longplate
2: Siemens 89 Long Plates...

NOW, even some shuguang's were thrown into the mix, including a 12au7 which calmed it down but it still was present. WHAT gives man? Did I get hit by some electricity or did 30 preamp tubes magically go microphonic lol.... We've been having a hellacious spur of thunderstorms and lightning here and I ALWAYS unplug my amps from the wall but perhaps the voltages were messed up after the storm and I pissed off all three amps? They're not acting crazy, losing tone etc they just ALL seem to be overly microphonic out of nowhere. 

When it rains, it truly poors.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm baffled Rob. Three amps, you've tried multiple tubes and all have the same symptoms.

It's very difficult to troubleshoot this particular problem.

I would start by checking your wall AC voltage. That would be common to all three amps.


----------



## RussBert

Any experience with the Haltron CV8156?


It's a Tungsram 12AX7 spec'd by the British military for high gain/low noise


----------



## RiverRatt

ReiGnMaN, There has to be some common source for the microphonics. Other components than tubes can be microphonic or cause microphonics and it can be a real bitch to find. I had a Fender Pro Jr. that was the same way and I never found the culprit. Just recently I thought I had a bad problem with parasitic oscillation in my DRRI, and it turned out to be a bad ground in my Les Paul's wiring. 

Check EVERYTHING you have connected to the amps; even stupid stuff like the mains cable. Make sure your wall voltage is around 120VAC on the hot side and near zero on the neutral side. If you're doing these tests with the same guitar and cable(s), try it with nothing plugged in. Change the power strip if you're using one. If the wall voltage is good, try plugging only one amp at a time directly into the outlet.

Do the amps still sound microphonic with nothing plugged in to the input? If you're comfortable poking around inside the amp while it's on, take the chassis out but leave it hooked up to the speaker and use a chopstick to tap on everything in the amp; capacitors, resistors, wiring, everything.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was on early this morning (4:45 AM) and gave a brief answer, but Alan makes a good point about checking your guitar "and" anything you use commonly with all three amps.

I truly believe that the problem is going to be external.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

RiverRatt said:


> ReiGnMaN, There has to be some common source for the microphonics. Other components than tubes can be microphonic or cause microphonics and it can be a real bitch to find. I had a Fender Pro Jr. that was the same way and I never found the culprit. Just recently I thought I had a bad problem with parasitic oscillation in my DRRI, and it turned out to be a bad ground in my Les Paul's wiring.
> 
> Check EVERYTHING you have connected to the amps; even stupid stuff like the mains cable. Make sure your wall voltage is around 120VAC on the hot side and near zero on the neutral side. If you're doing these tests with the same guitar and cable(s), try it with nothing plugged in. Change the power strip if you're using one. If the wall voltage is good, try plugging only one amp at a time directly into the outlet.
> 
> Do the amps still sound microphonic with nothing plugged in to the input? If you're comfortable poking around inside the amp while it's on, take the chassis out but leave it hooked up to the speaker and use a chopstick to tap on everything in the amp; capacitors, resistors, wiring, everything.



Guitar plugged in, then just chord, then no chord, all the same response. 
I honestly have troubleshooted and diagnosed enough electrical issues with cars, engine issues etc to say it CAN't be 30 bad tubes lol....... 

VERY strange. I'll check my outlets today, They don't lack character, tone or volume, just microphonics out of nowhere some of them. 

**UPDATE** 120.2V a/c at the outlets.


----------



## RiverRatt

ReiGnMaN said:


> Guitar plugged in, then just chord, then no chord, all the same response.
> I honestly have troubleshooted and diagnosed enough electrical issues with cars, engine issues etc to say it CAN't be 30 bad tubes lol.......
> 
> VERY strange. I'll check my outlets today, They don't lack character, tone or volume, just microphonics out of nowhere some of them.
> 
> **UPDATE** 120.2V a/c at the outlets.



Yeah, you're right about the tubes. No way could all have gone microphonic at the same time, and I agree with Marty. It is probably something outside the amps. If you've had a lot of lightning, It's possible that everything on that circuit could have gotten hit. We had lightning strike a tree a hundred feet from the house once and it blew up every light bulb on one circuit but didn't hurt anything else. 

I did notice that you haven't mentioned changing out any power tubes. They can be microphonic just the same as preamp tubes.

Check your outlet under full load just to make sure it stays around 120VAC, and do a resistance check from the chassis ground to the wall outlet ground with each amp. If there's a solid ground connection, check it for any stray AC or DC voltage. After that, do the chopstick thing. Tap every component, wire and solder joint in each amp. Capacitors all the way from the big filter caps to the tiny ceramic discs can be microphonic. Be on the lookout for any burn marks, soot, anything that could indicate a burned out component. 

Maybe Mickey will be by here. He's good at this stuff.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, you're right about the tubes. No way could all have gone microphonic at the same time, and I agree with Marty. It is probably something outside the amps. If you've had a lot of lightning, It's possible that everything on that circuit could have gotten hit. We had lightning strike a tree a hundred feet from the house once and it blew up every light bulb on one circuit but didn't hurt anything else.
> 
> I did notice that you haven't mentioned changing out any power tubes. They can be microphonic just the same as preamp tubes.
> 
> Check your outlet under full load just to make sure it stays around 120VAC, and do a resistance check from the chassis ground to the wall outlet ground with each amp. If there's a solid ground connection, check it for any stray AC or DC voltage. After that, do the chopstick thing. Tap every component, wire and solder joint in each amp. Capacitors all the way from the big filter caps to the tiny ceramic discs can be microphonic. Be on the lookout for any burn marks, soot, anything that could indicate a burned out component.
> 
> Maybe Mickey will be by here. He's good at this stuff.



I've never "chopsticked" the amp, are you saying light it up and start tapping the live circuit?


Power tubes I don't have and spending the money isn't an option right now.... 

All of my amps get disconnected before any storm or lightning comes by so yea.... I'm straight baffled.  As a matter of fact, the Marshall was upstairs in a case.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, you'll be working with a "live" chassis so be careful. That's just incredibly weird that they all started doing this at once. Problems like this are hard to diagnose because there's really nothing logical involved. It may seem so in retrospect, but there's no easy path to a logical answer. You just have to try everything you can think of. 

Speakers haven't entered into the equation yet; what are you using? Do you have a different cab for each head, or are you running everything thru the same cabinet?


----------



## RiverRatt

RussBert said:


> Any experience with the Haltron CV8156?
> 
> 
> It's a Tungsram 12AX7 spec'd by the British military for high gain/low noise



Russ, I didn't mean for your question to get buried in the discussion. I've never had a Haltron CV8156, but Tungsrams are generally known for low noise and high gain. They are one of my all-time favorite V1 tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I did have a question for you, but I can't seem to get anything going in the Speaker forum. What's with all the hate I'm reading for the G12M-70? From all that I can tell, it's basically a Vintage 30 with the mids being a little lower and the highs nice and smooth. People are describing them as the worst Celestion they've ever used, but mine sound as good as any Celestion I've used. Actually, they sound quite a bit better than most. I know cabinet design can play a part, but these are good speakers. I've used them for a week and they handle anything from AC/DC to metal.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

RiverRatt said:


> Yeah, you'll be working with a "live" chassis so be careful. That's just incredibly weird that they all started doing this at once. Problems like this are hard to diagnose because there's really nothing logical involved. It may seem so in retrospect, but there's no easy path to a logical answer. You just have to try everything you can think of.
> 
> Speakers haven't entered into the equation yet; what are you using? Do you have a different cab for each head, or are you running everything thru the same cabinet?



Both are using known, good celestion. With both a Peavey Rockmaster and a Soldano t-50 yamaha head they sound marvelous. I just filmed a 5 minute i phone video running both rigs to show the sounds and the fact that it hasn't affected tone what so ever. 



RiverRatt said:


> Russ, I didn't mean for your question to get buried in the discussion. I've never had a Haltron CV8156, but Tungsrams are generally known for low noise and high gain. They are one of my all-time favorite V1 tubes.



I have one of the yellow Tungsrams you're speaking of Haltron, in my experience they tend to be somewhere between the RCA's and the chinese shuguang cheapies Marshall guys seem to love. They aren't as sizzly or crunchy as the chinese tubes, but in my experience lately seem to have a little more punch than the 7025 RCA's. I will say the RCA's seem quieter to me at this point but again, used tubes, not nos etc.



RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I did have a question for you, but I can't seem to get anything going in the Speaker forum. What's with all the hate I'm reading for the G12M-70? From all that I can tell, it's basically a Vintage 30 with the mids being a little lower and the highs nice and smooth. People are describing them as the worst Celestion they've ever used, but mine sound as good as any Celestion I've used. Actually, they sound quite a bit better than most. I know cabinet design can play a part, but these are good speakers. I've used them for a week and they handle anything from AC/DC to metal.



I have seen/heard that as well. I could get my hands on 2 at $20.00 a piece locally and didn't bite. Truthfully speaking, everytime I've heard them in the mix I was not impressed. They came in flatter sounding than any celestion I've heard with exception to the Rocket 50's and the marshall badged ones. 

What era/timeframe were yours made River?


----------



## MartyStrat54

A G12M-70 is to Celestion what a 900DR is to Marshall. Just not a lot of love there. You don't see them around much. In fact, it has been years since I've heard them. Just like the 900DR there are those that love the M-70's. I feel it is another case of someone not even trying them and then saying they suck. It happens all the time on an Internet forum.

IIRC, Marshall did use them for a brief period in the 1960 cabs, prior to the T-75's.

Again, if you like it, you're good to go.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RussBert said:


> Any experience with the Haltron CV8156?
> 
> 
> It's a Tungsram 12AX7 spec'd by the British military for high gain/low noise



I haven't ever had one of those. I do sell Tungsrams though. It should be an above average tone tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

I traded for an early 1980's Gallien Krueger 2x12 that had them in it. They are a little flat compared to a greenback but I'd place them somewhere between a Vintage 30 and a G12T-75. I've had two cabinets with 75's that were great - maybe that's why I like these so much. I guess my rock playing style is heavily rooted in the early 1980's stuff from Def Leppard, AC/DC and similar bands, along with all the even more stereotypical ones. It's what I grew up on. I can get off on playing Beatles, Stones, blues, but I really feel the most comfortable blasting out power chords loud enough to scare the neighbors. I think these G12M-70's hold their definition way better than the more popular choices. If anything, they could use a bit more presence. They are a little on the dark side.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

River, Marty, Here's a video of the amp's acting up. A rebellious amplifier and it's owner. - YouTube

Blows my mind. On video, the rca is installed in the Marshall so tapping the front plate didn't make it act up with the guitar unplugged but without the RCA 7025 in there, it's seriously prominent. Shaking my head at this point, no clue. 
I ran them both at the same time for the sake of time.


They sound VERY gainy but bear in mind, its over driving the mic a bit... I KNOW I've run the preamp up to 11 on the jcm800 prior without issue. It wasn't even as noisy as the amp is now with the pre amp on 3 and the master was WAY up for trial and error tone stuff.


P.S.,
Before someone asks, the tremolo is grounded and I've tried multiple guitar (including les pauls) with the same issue...


----------



## mickeydg5

ReiGnMaN
I hear your problem.
To test things you need to unplug everything from the wall. Do not use the pedal board.
Plug only one amplifier to the wall socket. Plug your guitar to an instrument/guitar cable straight to amplifier input. Now play. What happens? You can do that with each amplifier. Video please; those are cool. If you cluck a little or make other chicken noises it would be really funny. 

You know I am kidding man!


----------



## ReiGnMaN

mickeydg5 said:


> ReiGnMaN
> I hear your problem.
> To test things you need to unplug everything from the wall. Do not use the pedal board.
> Plug only one amplifier to the wall socket. Plug your guitar to an instrument/guitar cable straight to amplifier input. Now play. What happens? You can do that with each amplifier. Video please; those are cool. If you cluck a little or make other chicken noises it would be really funny.
> 
> You know I am kidding man!



LOL I will do that next video for ya brotha!
This video was done to show both doing it in a timely manner, I discovered the problem separately and have done each amp just outlet, head cable guitar and same issues are present. Both amps act identical with the exception of the noted ground hum when both were on. 


I can and will film them individually like that if you would like, I'm all ears as well..... I'm baffled.


----------



## mickeydg5

ReiGnMaN said:


> I can and will film them individually like that if you would like, I'm all ears as well..... I'm baffled.


 
And just to be sure I am on the same page and understand what has been presented, you have tried different guitar cables and guitars all of which give the same results with either amplifier. ???


----------



## ReiGnMaN

mickeydg5 said:


> And just to be sure I am on the same page and understand what has been presented, you have tried different guitar cables and guitars all of which give the same results with either amplifier. ???



Yes sir, much more prominently is the Marshall. That amps been a member of the family for some time now. The Randall (while not new) is the newer addition and could have had an issue prior however, it is strange to me the similarities in the issue. 

I can guarantee the marshall has NEVER had an issue. As a matter of fact squeal, hissing moaning wise, it was the quietest amp I've played through until recently considering it's modifications and several other players have said the same thing unprovoked.

I have NOT touched power tubes as well..... Don't have any 

I have tried: 
35+: Preamp tubes
5: Guitars
4-5: cables
3: outlets

I've checked the outlets, they're at 120.2 volts and steady, changed speaker cabs etc.


----------



## RussBert

MartyStrat54 said:


> I haven't ever had one of those. I do sell Tungsrams though. It should be an above average tone tube.





I have heard of the British Haltron name, they were basically a re-labeler of existing tubes. They were tested and screened before they got the Haltron logo...or so the story goes.


I just ordered 2 from a tube retailer in Turkey! I'll check back once I get them...

http://www.nostubestore.com/search/label/ECC83/12AX7/5751 - EUROPEAN BRANDS


oh, and I thought this thread was about pre-amp tubes ???


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is it Haltron or Ultron?

BTW-We are a full service thread. Providing answers to many different questions.


----------



## RussBert

Haltron...check out the Tungsram he offers. There are also some other Haltron-labeled tubes that are RFT's


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, I've heard of both, but when I opened the link it said Ultron. I didn't go down the page far enough. Those are some nice NOS tubes. I've never tried a Tungsram ECC803 variant.


----------



## mickeydg5

I believe Haltron was a distributer of European tubes much like Ultron.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Edicron is another and I believe they are still in business.

Edicron UK - Electronic and Audio Valves


----------



## RiverRatt

I just stopped at a random yard sale and bought an old MIJ stereo tube amplifier kit for $2. It had two 35C5 power tubes, a 35W4 rectifier, and a 12AX7. It has the tube chassis with the sockets, OPT's and filter caps mounted. The rest of the wiring is point-to-point; no circuit boards here. It's missing the main chassis but the faceplace was intact. All the tubes were NOS Matsushita. The 12AX7 is one of the early 45° getters with a 1962 date code.


----------



## RussBert




----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a real good looking tube Alan. Too bad it isn't the D getter. However the slant is better than the halo version.


----------



## MartyStrat54

1981. I always wonder what the quality was like that late in the game? I'm thinking it was probably better everywhere except the USA.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1981. I always wonder what the quality was like that late in the game? I'm thinking it was probably better everywhere except the USA.



I've had plenty of the later Tungsrams and the quality is on-par with anything from the 1960s. They consistently test high, are low noise, and have a great midrange bark. Definitely worth having in your collection.

Marty, the earlier short plate Matsushitas are like their contemporary, the Mullard I61. Anything up to 1963 seems to be almost as good as the long-plates of the 1950's. I think all the companies knew that switching over to shorter plates created a more rugged tube with lower microphonics but at the cost of tone. Some, like Tungsram, maintained their signature tone, but a lot of companies settled for the lower noise but IMO less-musical design.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very true. All the early 12AX7's were long plates. The manufacturers made a compromise on tonal performance when they went to the less microphonic short plate models.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

These followed me home today







The longer tubes are actually 12bh7's and the magnavox box is an old rca 12at7
Marty, check your email brotha.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Greengirl listing...and one doesn't even test that good.

2 Vintage Genalex Gold Lion England 12AX7 ECC83 Stereo Tubes B759 | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

Good grief! I want to meet the idiot who buys two Mullard I61 tubes for $1500!


----------



## mickeydg5

Who's buying?

The Genalex label is rare.

There was one that sold for $660 with 1700/1800 (minimum 875).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan hit the nail with a big hammer. It's an I61 Mullard "relabeled" by Genalex. The only difference was (as with every relabeled tube) it was screened and tested for low microphonics. It's 100 percent Mullard.

Read the August 21. 2012 comment about Genalex ECC81/B739/12AT7.

Genalex B739 Gold Lion – Great Britain | Tube Maze Reviews


----------



## RiverRatt

She always sells tubes by the label, not by what it actually is. You have to be careful. That auction is criminally misleading.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I was looking at tubes on EBAY earlier today. Another one that I came across was a guy selling German S and H tubes for a ridiculous amount. They were RFT's.


----------



## christianpaulanderson

1959 Kinsman-branded GE 12AX7's. My personal favorite 12AX7 for a Marshall.


----------



## christianpaulanderson

And I only used NOS Winged C EL34's in my Marshalls. They've never failed me once.


----------



## MartyStrat54

1959 was a great year for USA tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeap. I caught that about the Genalex ECC83 and know it is merely a tested and high grade Mullard.

Being rare, it gives some people a feel of accomplishment giving collector's bragging rights while belonging to a small elite club. You know what I mean.

I would rather look for a good long plate Mullard at as cheap a price as possible.

But it is almost like a rare mule coin. The face value may be hardy anything yet there are people who would pay hundreds or even thousands times more to own it.


----------



## christianpaulanderson

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1959 was a great year for USA tubes.


Kinsman-branded GE 12AX7's. I'm tellin' you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> I would rather look for a good long plate Mullard at as cheap a price as possible.



Or a Mazda Silver Plate for $100 to $150.

And slant getter Valvo's are real nice too.


----------



## RiverRatt

I like GE long plates too. They aren't my favorite V1 Marshall tube but I have had some that sounded really good. My personal favorites are Tungsram 12AX7's. The GE is a pretty smooth tube overall. The Tungsram is a darker tube with lower mids that bark. The tube you choose for V2 can have a lot to do with how good your V1 tube sounds. A Raytheon black plate in V2 is just about as good as it gets.

Don't worry about who the tube was labeled for. That's kinda what we were talking about with the eBay auction that Marty posted. Even though the tubes are marked as Genalex Gold Lions, the type code, which is clearly visible in several shots, indicates that it's an I61 revision of the Mullard 12AX7, which were made sometime in the early 1960's. A Kinsman GE tube is exactly like their standard production model. Sometimes a company that re-labeled tubes might ask that the tubes be screened for low noise or high gain or something, but the tubes were pulled straight off the production line.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly Alan and that is why I like the old JAN WA's. They were just the best of the best production tubes with great tonal characteristics. Not at all like the later JAN tubes made for the military.

And another good example was any tube relabeled for an organ manufacturer. These tubes were also the cream of the crop.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> 1959 was a great year for USA tubes.



You cork sniffer!!!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Exactly Alan and that is why I like the old JAN WA's. They were just the best of the best production tubes with great tonal characteristics. Not at all like the later JAN tubes made for the military



Are you talking about the green print Sylvania long plate WA's? I got 3 or 4 of those in that trade the other day. They aren't as stupid-high gain as the later ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those are nice and I like the GE's as well. I don't know when the manufacturer's changed their designs to the "ruggedized" versions, but it seems that if they are 1964 and earlier, those are the best ones.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Saw a lot of eight RCA Red Label 12AX7's on EBAY and I thought the start price was $50. Upon closer examination, the seller was wanting $50 per tube.

Okay...


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been sorting through my loose tubes, putting them in boxes, throwing away the bad ones, etc. and I realized that although I have a good number of 6L6GC's, 5881's, 6BQ5/EL84's, 6V6GT's, I don't have many that match up cosmetically although some of the test scores are similar. I was thinking that it might be cool if we could post our loose tubes and see if anyone needs any of them to complete a pair/quad or post an example of what we're looking for. I know the odds are that the tube won't match exactly, but from what I've learned here, a pair of tubes that are less than 8mA apart are close enough to call matched.

I traded some tubes with vintagevoltage awhile back and ended up with a really nice Sylvania 6L6GC dual getter that I'd love to find a match for. It tests right at 100% on my TV-7. I might post a few pics of what all I have and see if anybody wants to do some trading.

The Sylvania:


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I could help you with a mate for the 6L6GC, but I don't have a thing. I have some GE and Sylvania 6CA7's and that's about it.

Up until early 2010, I had a pretty good stash of power tubes. If you recall, I had several sets of double OO getter and triple OOO getter 6CA7's and about a dozen single and double OO getter 6L6GC's.

Selling vintage power tubes just became such a PITA. The sellers were a PITA as well. Everyone had strong, matched sets. Yeah, right.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Shame there was only one 6L6GC in the stash i found Alan, i'm sure another will show up sooner or later for you.
Can't wait to try the USA 12ax7's that are on the way here from you!
Cheers


----------



## RussBert

MartyStrat54 said:


> Exactly Alan and that is why I like the old JAN WA's. They were just the best of the best production tubes with great tonal characteristics. Not at all like the later JAN tubes made for the military.




Older or newer, weren't all JAN tubes were made for the military ???

JAN = Joint Army/Navy


----------



## RiverRatt

That's why most of my big tubes are singles. I hardly ever run into pairs or quads except for this one guy who saves amp pulls. There's no reason why you can't mix and match brands and designs within the 6L6GC family though as long as they match up fairly closely.

Marty, I agree about power tubes. I had one guy who wanted to return a pair of Sylvania 6L6GC's that were identical except one had red print and the other was green. I NEVER use the word "matched" in an auction. I just list test scores and let people decide for themselves. If you call a pair or a quad "matched", some asshole with a Maxi Matcher will buy them and send them back because they are 1mA apart.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RussBert said:


> Older or newer, weren't all JAN tubes were made for the military ???
> 
> JAN = Joint Army/Navy



Yes they were. My wording was a little vague. My point was the early JAN tubes were just highly tested production tubes and have a great tone.

The later JAN tubes had tougher requirements and to meet them the manufacturers changed their designs. These tubes are pretty sterile sounding. They do however make good PI tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Like the ones that used two support rods between the plates. That GE you sent me that had the support rods actually made a great V1 tube in my Deluxe Reverb. Fender's amps don't rely much on preamp tube clipping though. It wasn't as good as a Sylvania 5751 in it, but it wasn't bad.

I got a couple of amps to work on that I may have to hit you guys up for some advice on. One is a Rivera-model Fender Super 112 and the other is a Laney LC30-II. Most of the info on the internet says it's a Class A amp but if it is I wonder why it has a PI tube and a center-tapped OPT?


----------



## MartyStrat54

How many amps are advertised as being Class A, when they are really a "high" Class AB? I really don't know how manufacturer's get away with it. 

The only real Class A tubes amps I've seen are boutique models or kits.

Swart makes a really nice Class A 6V6 amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

You see a lot of them in old hi-fi equipment, at least the stuff that didn't run straight off 115v wall current. I've got some class A EL84 and 6V6 output transformers that I'd love to build a small amp around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let me clarify. I meant current production guitar amps.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

Well, I believe the "power tube" pin side of my tube tester shit the bed.... 

I was going to test some tubes to see if any were a loose match for you guys but yea... no readings, 9 pin pre-amp side still working fine..?

I NEED to get my hands on some 6L6's, going to try and see if someone local needs a pedal I have or something :/


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey did you ever figure out what was wrong with your amps?


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey did you ever figure out what was wrong with your amps?



I'm going to have a tech friend look over them. I opened them up, looked for issues and found no obvious signs of burning, capacitors failing, grounds or connections.


----------



## RiverRatt

ReiGnMaN said:


> Well, I believe the "power tube" pin side of my tube tester shit the bed....
> 
> I was going to test some tubes to see if any were a loose match for you guys but yea... no readings, 9 pin pre-amp side still working fine..?
> 
> I NEED to get my hands on some 6L6's, going to try and see if someone local needs a pedal I have or something :/



How many 6L6GC's do you need and what are you trading? Send me a PM.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just got back after some surgery. Looks like it's really been slow here.


----------



## Lowlife

Surgery, are you okay?


----------



## RiverRatt

Lowlife said:


> Surgery, are you okay?



That ulnar nerve entrapment release and transposition that I did to my left arm last year. All-in-all it fixed the problems but I'm thru with this surgeon. Weird-ass thinks he's Brett Michaels.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! I'm so glad that I only had to undergo this same surgery one time. I had to have my ulnar nerve relocated and a bone spur removed off of my elbow. I'm so glad I had it done. I actually had it done at the VA hospital in Leavenworth, KS, but the surgeon was a highly regarded doctor from Kansas City.

I hope this last surgery took care of your problems, Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, and the doc is alright. I'm just pissed about four surgeries and procedures. If it comes off as good as last year's left hand fix-ups I should be up to 90% by Christmas.


----------



## Lowlife

Sounds good, pretty nasty having to go back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bought two Baldwin organ pull 12AX7's. 20 Black Plates and 18 Sylvania's. The Black Plates were not as strong as I like, but I got them for a good price and they are getting tough to find. The Sylvania's as always are stout.

Telefunkens have gotten really high. I haven't been able to get any for a while. Tried to win a lot of 12, but my Internet service went down for 2 days. I got back on today and found out they sold for $660 ($55 each). Way too much for me.


----------



## chee16

Yikes, $55 piece seems a bit steep. The only black plate I have tried so far is the Raytheon I got, and it is in my V1 so that tells you how much I liked it! Haha.

The last 2 GEs I won have actually sounded really good in V2 with that Raytheon, they were both really strong tubes though so I shouldn't be surprised.

I have some really nice tubes on the way that I can't wait to try:
Ei smoothplate
Amperex NOS Hytron labelled
Mullard I63 Blackburn

also have a Sylvania 7025a coming with those!

I can't wait! Will post some thoughts on them in here. I welcome suggestions for my tsl602 slots!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The only tube I would be concerned about is the Ei. They can be microphonic.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have had good luck with Ei. I've only had one that was bad. Just finished a cig in the Walgreen's parking lot. Freedom tastes good!


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I have had good luck with Ei. I've only had one that was bad. Just finished a cig in the Walgreen's parking lot. Freedom tastes good!



I thought you were married...who's this Freedom girl you're referring to?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good one Joe.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been in the hospital since July 11th. I just got out today, and for good I hope. That was f'!d up!


----------



## minerman

RiverRatt said:


> I've been in the hospital since July 11th. I just got out today, and for good I hope. That was f'!d up!


 
Been wonderin' where you've been Alan, hope everything's ok, & stays that way for ya dude.....


----------



## solarburn

Heal up good bud!


----------



## mickeydg5

Ditto that last post.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know guys. This one's kicking my ass. We're talking a round of a year of surgeries and rehab.


----------



## solarburn

That's a serious investment in care. You hang tough and stay positive. Hope you get the improvements you need.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It can be a mental drag. I rehabbed from my sternum injury and that whole ordeal lasted 17 months. A real dark point in my life, because after I was cleared to work, no one wanted to hire a 47 year old guy who just got over a long term injury.


----------



## solarburn

That mental drag is very real indeed. Especially with chronic conditions. Hell I had to go to counseling for mine cause there was no easy fix and no complete return to health. I learned some coping skills that deal specifically with being down in health ...for the long term. Man I was a big strong healthy active person too. Really can be debilitating and more so if left without an approach in dealing with it. Thank God I had insurance too. Help and rehab aren't cheap.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah that sternum injury left me with an arthritic mass in the center of my chest. It also altered my breathing. I finally got out of the line of work that was tearing me up, but it was probably a little too late. Sadly, it has been bothering me lately and I just went in for an x-ray earlier today.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was going through some of my inventory and I found four short plate Baldwin labeled 12AX7's. These have the light blue print. I'm pretty sure that these are some of the later made in Japan tubes that Baldwin used in their organs. Does that sound right? I seem to remember that the blue print was MIJ tubes.

I also found five, strong GE 12AX7WA's and four Sylvania JHS 12AX7's. Every time I go combing through my loose inventory, I find something cool. A lot of these tubes were EBAY purchases I made 4 or 5 years ago when I was buying a lot of small lots of USA tubes.

I also keep finding more slant getter Matshushita's. I think they are breeding somewhere in a cardboard box.

Oh and I found a real cool pre-60's long, black plate JHS Sylvania 12AX7 that had 31-30 written on the box. This is a square getter. I've never tried this tube ever.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think that old JHS black plate was one that I got along with all those JAN GE and JHS Sylvania 5751's. I got a lot of military tubes in that deal. Was it in a ProComm box?

The blue print Baldwin tubes should be Toshiba. Look for the huge circular cutouts between the plates on the top & bottom micas. IMO these are good utility tubes but not much tone-wise.

How many 'shitas are we talking? I might have some stuff to trade that you'd like much better. PM me and let me know what you have.

Here are a couple of Toshibas. the photo makes them look elongated but you can see the cutouts.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> That mental drag is very real indeed. Especially with chronic conditions. Hell I had to go to counseling for mine cause there was no easy fix and no complete return to health. I learned some coping skills that deal specifically with being down in health ...for the long term. Man I was a big strong healthy active person too. Really can be debilitating and more so if left without an approach in dealing with it. Thank God I had insurance too. Help and rehab aren't cheap.


 
Thanks Joe. I have good insurance. With my left hand, I used guitar for PT. That probably won't fly this time but the Dr is more positive each time I see him. I think I'm going to get most if not all function back, I just hate to wait.

Marty, I didn't know the details about your sternum injury. It sounds like life has been busy kicking all our asses.


----------



## DirtySteve

It's good to see you again Alan.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Steve. It's hard doing everything left-handed. On the other hand, I have no taste for beer & cigarettes any more. I feel like I dropped around 25 lbs too. I'm feeling better so I'll probably be around more. I still get tired quicker but that's coming around, too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I decided to post some pics of the Baldwins. There are no cutouts on the mica's. There is a very thin metal plate on top of the top mica. (See PIC #1.)













The plates have the one staple design.


----------



## brp

Glad you're feeling better Allan and it's good to see you around here. Hopefully the recovery goes a little quicker than expected.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry Marty, those look like Hitachi. Still the ugly sister either way.

Hey Bill!


----------



## RiverRatt

minerman said:


> Been wonderin' where you've been Alan, hope everything's ok, & stays that way for ya dude.....



Getting better. Thanks to everybody for the concern.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Sorry Marty, those look like Hitachi.



Well that's funny, I was thinking the same thing myself. I knew they weren't Toshiba's and they definitely weren't Matsushita's, so that basically left the only other company...Hitachi.

The main clue was the "one staple" design.

Gee...I wonder what I paid for these?


----------



## solarburn

Marty. I'm interested in a slant shita. I put an RFT. in v1 and the shita in v2. The meaty lower miss of the RFT mix with the upper mids of the Shita. Great 1 2 punch in the OR15. PM me price if you have good ones.


----------



## RiverRatt

Where did everybody go?


----------



## MartyStrat54

We were waiting on you to show up. You are the "anchor." 

How ya feeling sailor?


----------



## gameshound

hey Man

Hope your feeling a lot better!!
you guys don't know..but I know about medical issue's
was in a car accident in 1988 and have been using a wheelchair ever since!!!
just gotta power through it!!

TOOBS medicine is almost as good as BOOB Medicine!!!


----------



## Micky

RiverRatt said:


> Where did everybody go?



Still here, waiting for you...


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't feel like an anchor. I try to get on here every day but I'm having surgery three days a week. That takes a lot out of you.

Mark, I keep looking for a box of tubes to show up...


----------



## Micky

I am glad you are feeling somewhat better!
Maybe posting here daily could be part of your therapy?

We all sure miss you around here...


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> I don't feel like an anchor. I try to get on here every day but I'm having surgery three days a week. That takes a lot out of you.
> 
> Mark, I keep looking for a box of tubes to show up...


 
So may I call you Johnson instead of RiverRatt?

I hope someone gets that joke. 

Well relax, recoup and post between meds. Seriously, get your rest.


----------



## RiverRatt

I remember a skit from some comedy show with that guy who used to do the "You can call me Ray,and you can call me Jay, etc... But you doesn't have to call me Johnson" skit. That's the only thing I can think of, unless you're going some place I don't want to go. In that case, I would prefer "The Big Unit".


----------



## mickeydg5

No it was nothing bad. Where my people come from they use to refer to Johnson outboard motors as anchors. I thought you might know that one being a river rat and all.
I never really followed sports that much but I think when people hear "The Big Unit" only one thing comes to mind. Hah, haa.
RiverRatt it is.


----------



## RiverRatt

We didn't make fun of Johnson outboards when I was all about hangin' out at the river or lake. If you owned a 20hp Johnson outboard and a jon boat, you were miles ahead of us. One time we "borrowed" 3 or 4 styrofoam blocks from a boat dock and paddled them around a cove until they'd broken into pieces that were too small to sit on. That's river rat style. We were probably stoned. They'd bust yer ass for a handful of beers but vegetable matter was pretty much a freebie. 

I do have one funny Johnson outboard story from when I was a kid. There was an old dog trader called "Jigs" Elliot. I have no idea what his name was. He made lead jig heads for fishing. He turned up one day at our house with a Johnson outboard he'd traded for and wanted to borrow my dad's jon boat and 2-acre pond to try it out. I watched him wind that rope and pull on that motor forever. He finally got it running and made a lap around the pond (along with a big blue smoke ring), after which the motor completely gave up and slid off the back of the boat and into the pond.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mercury FTW!


----------



## RiverRatt

Piss on Mercury. A 200hp motor that leaves you abandoned with 2+ miles of water in any direction isn't my idea of a good motor. If I need that kind of HP, I'd rather have an inboard small-block Chevy.


----------



## RiverRatt

Let me clarify that: I'm only talking about super high output motors and with high output comes high maintenance. Do yourself a favor and at least carry a spare starter. I could live with a Mercury 20.


----------



## johnfv

Inboard FTW


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay Alan...you just started a new trend. As of today, the Bass Masters are allowing inboard V8's in bass boats. 

Now we will be arguing over Ford, Chevy and Chrysler. LOL!


----------



## mickeydg5

Hey I could not even afford a boat or motor so I did not even have a Johnson.
Yes Mercury was known for power and speed as well as breaking down. Lots of people bought Evinrude. That was a long time ago too. Then came Yamaha, who was the new kid in town. Others followed but I have not kept up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you are not an endorsed member of the Bass Masters using a particular brand of motor, the most widely used motor is Mercury. I don't think they break down like they used to.

And I too never had the money to afford a boat, motor, trailer, insurance and storage for something I might use on a limited basis in a 120 day out of the year period.


----------



## chee16

What floors me is the amount of fuel those guys go through. I worked at a large shop that sold/serviced boats/atv's/motorcycles/snowmobiles and the boats surprised me the most. One dude that was sponsored by Nitro had 3 bass boats all of which has 225 Merc's on them. But he just HAD to have 250's, which cost more then the boat at the time. It was crazy. We would fill the tank up for him and I swear I got $500 in one boat which he said he can go through in half a day sometimes, hopefully he was exaggerating.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

chee16 said:


> What floors me is the amount of fuel those guys go through. I worked at a large shop that sold/serviced boats/atv's/motorcycles/snowmobiles and the boats surprised me the most. One dude that was sponsored by Nitro had 3 bass boats all of which has 225 Merc's on them. But he just HAD to have 250's, which cost more then the boat at the time. It was crazy. We would fill the tank up for him and I swear I got $500 in one boat which he said he can go through in half a day sometimes, hopefully he was exaggerating.



mother of god.....




Hope everyones doing well.... I'm about to go solid state.. (no shit)

Big show coming up on the 22nd in Bristol Tennessee and my jcm800, and two randalls are both randalls are acting like little $%^%&@!

I must have put 35 different tubes and yet all act microphonic again....

Last step is ordering all new tubes and just being a straight jj 12ax7 guy...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you live on top of an Indian burial ground?

It has got to be something common to all three amps.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ReiGnMaN said:


> I'm about to go solid state.. (no shit)



Please don't buy a CRATE. Get a Peavey or a Randall.

Then we can talk about upgrading the transistors.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...Then we can talk about upgrading the transistors.


Damn. That is funny. Vintage MOSFETs!


----------



## Micky

johnfv said:


> Damn. That is funny. Vintage MOSFETs!


You laugh, but it is true!
I have come across a couple SS devices that required modification because there was no MOSFET replacement available. Only Vintage stuff from a scrap partially working unit was available...


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you live on top of an Indian burial ground?
> 
> It has got to be something common to all three amps.



LOL you might be on to something!

In all seriousness, I'll send you _every_ 12ax7 I've used to check out... they're all STUPID noisy in these amps, I just don't get it. If I tap them, some are insane loud.

Telefunkens
RCA 7025's
Siemens
Sylvania's
Sovteks
Shuguangs
EH

you name it.... HAS to be something weird going on here but today for example, I turned it on off standby and it almost made me deaf immediately, awful shrill feedback. 

P.s., I'm down for some voodoo transistor mods


----------



## minerman

ReiGnMaN said:


> Big show coming up on the 22nd in Bristol Tennessee


 
Where in Bristol is your big show??? I live about an hour & half from there....


----------



## mickeydg5

ReiGnMaN said:


> mother of god.....
> Hope everyones doing well.... I'm about to go solid state.. (no shit)


Have you had luck using solid state amplifiers at the same place?


----------



## RiverRatt

Micky said:


> You laugh, but it is true!
> I have come across a couple SS devices that required modification because there was no MOSFET replacement available. Only Vintage stuff from a scrap partially working unit was available...



Check with me first. I have just about any vintage FET you could imagine. Finding it could be iffy. I sold an Alesis Mikro on eBay and luckily tested it before i shipped it and the right channel was just a loud hum. I ran the circuit and found an electrolytic cap and a jFET that were giving me screwy readings. New transistor, new cap, and back in business. The eBay buyer was glad to get it a few days later but working.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay Alan...you just started a new trend. As of today, the Bass Masters are allowing inboard V8's in bass boats.
> 
> Now we will be arguing over Ford, Chevy and Chrysler. LOL!



I know a few fishermen who have inboards, but they aren't tournament fishermen. Once you get where you're going it's all trolling motor anyway.

I remember Evinrude being a popular motor back in the day.


----------



## RiverRatt

ReiGnMaN said:


> Hope everyones doing well.... I'm about to go solid state.. (no shit)
> 
> Big show coming up on the 22nd in Bristol Tennessee and my jcm800, and two randalls are both randalls are acting like little $%^%&@!
> 
> I must have put 35 different tubes and yet all act microphonic again....
> 
> Last step is ordering all new tubes and just being a straight jj 12ax7 guy...



I have had a couple of amps like that, and found that capacitors can be microphonic too. It's like the tap test you do with tubes except you have the chassis upen (standard voltage warnings apply). Some chassis can seem microphonic but it's likely a cap causing it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

...yes but the main mystery is that all three amps started having the same problem at the same time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'd be interested in checking the power at the place where all this is happening. is the ground clean? Ditto for the neutral. Is the mains circuit dedicated and able to handle the demand or is it just an extension cord from an outlet that's already loaded. Dirty electricity can cause problems too.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...yes but the main mystery is that all three amps started having the same problem at the same time.



THANKS OBAMA.....

:deadhorse:


----------



## ReiGnMaN

RiverRatt said:


> I'd be interested in checking the power at the place where all this is happening. is the ground clean? Ditto for the neutral. Is the mains circuit dedicated and able to handle the demand or is it just an extension cord from an outlet that's already loaded. Dirty electricity can cause problems too.



The place is my home, built in 1996, all I can test with is my dvom and the voltage is consistant at the outlets all throughout the home.  Tomorrow if I get some time I'm going to run an extension chord from the living room downstairs upstairs and see if there's any difference. Would suck, the room looks great with all that gear in it  I'd much rather solve the issue though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gremlins...


----------



## mickeydg5

ReiGnMaN said:


> The place is my home, built in 1996, all I can test with is my dvom and the voltage is consistant at the outlets all throughout the home.  Tomorrow if I get some time I'm going to run an extension chord from the living room downstairs upstairs and see if there's any difference. Would suck, the room looks great with all that gear in it  I'd much rather solve the issue though.


You mentioned a Yamaha T-50 previously. Have you used this amplifier at the same house? Have you tried any of those same tubes in the T-50?

Have you plugged in any solid state amplifiers there as well?

This one is puzzling and I think of it every now and then. I find it hard to believe all those tubes have problems especially with three different amplifiers. There is something in common and whatever is causing or has caused the problem.

Have you taken either of the three amplifiers elsewhere to try them (with a group of those tubes of course)? Results?

Have you tested every tube in the same tube tester?

I hope I have not hit my limit for questions .


----------



## MartyStrat54

SED Winged C is history.

www.thetubestore.com - SED Winged "C" Audio Tubes

See my comments in the SED thread in the Workshop section.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

What a shame, i really like them....


----------



## chee16

Guess that solves my dilemma on which tubes to try next......GT el34m's it is!


----------



## RiverRatt

ReiGnMaN said:


> The place is my home, built in 1996, all I can test with is my dvom and the voltage is consistant at the outlets all throughout the home.  Tomorrow if I get some time I'm going to run an extension chord from the living room downstairs upstairs and see if there's any difference. Would suck, the room looks great with all that gear in it  I'd much rather solve the issue though.



Your DMM is fine for checking wall voltage. What readings did you get at ground, neutral and hot?


----------



## ReiGnMaN

RiverRatt said:


> Your DMM is fine for checking wall voltage. What readings did you get at ground, neutral and hot?





120.2 consistantly on the hot. How do I test the neutral and ground? I am an electrical automotive tech IE DC 12v systems


----------



## MartyStrat54

Get one of these at the hardware store.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Electrical-Receptacle-Outlet-Ground-Tester/dp/B0012DHVQ0]Electrical Receptacle Wall Plug AC Outlet Ground Tester - Amazon.com[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

I check the amp chassis to the outlet ground and also chassis to the plug end of the mains cable. It's probably a useless test but I like trivial info. Check neutral to ground on the outlet. Look for no more than a couple of volts on the neutral side.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Somebody is upset with me. Hint-They are from Canada and they sell SED.


----------



## brp

Does their name rhyme with pube spore?


----------



## solarburn

What did they say about their declarations on the SEDs?


----------



## johnfv

Since they are already mad at you, you may as well spill it  All you did was link to their site, what can they be pissed about?


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Does their name rhyme with pube spore?



Why yes, yes it does.



> What did they say about their declarations on the SEDs?



They are trying to make me into a villain. They are upset because I said, "It looks like they are on my shit list." They also accused me of being a tube dealer that uses my position as a moderator to "smear" other tube sellers. Have you guys ever seen me smearing other tube vendors here (except for the erroneous info from Euro Tubes)?

I had to point out to them that I have posted many times where I gave them a positive review for their pricing and customer support. My main issue with them is that their website info seems to be erroneous and premature, as two major US retailers know nothing about SED closing. Also they claim that SED factory seconds were made available to them, but they declined. No other retailer has heard of these factory seconds.

I contacted another European distributor a little while ago and I hope they can put this to rest. I also contacted SED, but I doubt if they will reply back to me. Will see.

So far there have been several exchanges of email, but I am sticking to what I said about their comments being erroneous and premature.


----------



## mickeydg5

I had posted this on the "SED factory closure ?" thread.



mickeydg5 said:


> In regards to SED, Svetlana OAO
> PM Components of UK is supposed to be a major distributor and for the US. There website says nothing (yet) anyways. They did indicate Rackcrew as a contact/distributor in the US but is no longer found.
> TubeDepot is another contact/distributor and has no news posted.
> There are others and no word mentioned.


 


mickeydg5 said:


> I contacted a few places along with the ones that I had mentioned.
> 
> So far TubeDepot wrote back saying they carry the full line of SED tubes and indicated nothing about limited supply.


----------



## johnfv

FWIW, I've bought from both TubeStore and MartimusMaximus and I've been very satisfied in all cases. I perceive nothing negative that you've said about them, if anything Marty you've been complimentary of them (which in my experience they deserve). Plus, you've hardly been a mod that long, how much power could you have? I may be out of the loop on the latest SED details. Are they backing away from their web page saying the factory was closing?


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Maybe Marshall might know, my friend's RR1959 has them from new. They still use them don't they? 
Santiago might know the right person to find out from...


----------



## vintagevoltage351

Double post...


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I had posted this on the "SED factory closure ?" thread (PM Components).



I sent PM Components an email. I hope they will reply. They are the sole European/Japan distributor. You would think they would know what is going on.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> They also accused me of being a tube dealer that uses my position as a moderator to "smear" other tube sellers. Have you guys ever seen me smearing other tube vendors here (except for the erroneous info from Euro Tubes)?



No. In fact quite the opposite.
That's crazy.

When I had to return a bad NOS tube to that vendor in Texas (can't remember their name right now) and they came on the forum to clear up a couple things, you were quick to praise them for their good service and the fact that they refunded me before I had even sent the tube back.

I think that's in this thread somewhere.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thank you brp. I really resented the fact that I got accused of smearing. That is such a joke and one has to wonder why this was even said?

You can search this forum and I have referred members to many of the popular tube vendors. I have been very kind to these vendors. 

I see nothing wrong with someone being interested in finding out what the truth really is. Some of the info that has been stated can actually damage the other SED retailers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> Are they backing away from their web page saying the factory was closing?



Not at this time. As I said, I am being painted as a villain. You would think that the Tube Store would want to state where they got their information from.

I told TS that I pride myself in informing members here about any news regarding tube manufacturers.

I see nothing wrong with investigating their website statements.


----------



## RiverRatt

brp said:


> I think that's in this thread somewhere.



Hell, the Gettysburg Address is probably in this thread somewhere.

I never buy tubes from the Stores and Depots and other big-name resellers. I enjoy buying, selling & trading both on my own as well as with Marty, gameshound and all you others (you know who you are ). I enjoy hitting an antique mall or junk store and walking out with a Mullard or Telefunken 12AX7 or a nice pair of 6L6GC's. Buying from the big stores is like paying to shoot a trophy deer. You probably paid too much and didn't earn the trophy.

They are jealous because Marty kicks all their asses. They just want you to buy a tube, snake oil and all. Marty wants you to buy the tube, like the tube, be happy with the tone and the price, and make sure you are getting exactly what you need and want whether or not you know what that is.

BTW, I got a lead on a tubed Dynaco Stereo 70 right now. Can you say "Quad o' Mullard EL34's"?


----------



## RiverRatt

Y'all will have to allow me to ramble a bit. I had some pretty bad pain today and narcs make me chatty (my wife's word).


----------



## MartyStrat54

I was wondering when you were going to mention the pain meds. I'm sure they gave you some of the good stuff. Just watch out and don't over do it. There are so many horror stories about people getting hooked on their pain meds.

When I had my ulnar surgery, the doctor gave me 20 oxy's and I only used four of them. This was 2008 or so. I still have a bunch of them left. I don't even know if they are still good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Hell, the Gettysburg Address is probably in this thread somewhere.
> 
> BTW, I got a lead on a tubed Dynaco Stereo 70 right now. Can you say "Quad o' Mullard EL34's"?



I think I remember seeing the Gettysburg Address on page 83. LOL!

Man a Dynaco 70 is one of the most desirable EL34 amps around. They kick total ass. Huge iron. Put a SS sub amp and speaker to handle 100Hz and below and then let the Dynaco handle everything else. That would be one hell of a hifi system.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I was wondering when you were going to mention the pain meds. I'm sure they gave you some of the good stuff. Just watch out and don't over do it. There are so many horror stories about people getting hooked on their pain meds.
> 
> When I had my ulnar surgery, the doctor gave me 20 oxy's and I only used four of them. This was 2008 or so. I still have a bunch of them left. I don't even know if they are still good.



They are still good. I have a decent stash but I'm letting my wife dispense them. I found out yesterday that this may be as good as it's gonna get. It'll be over a year until I know for sure.


----------



## johnfv

My dad built a Dynaco ST70 (and matching preamp and tuner) in the '60s. I inherited it when he upgraded in the '70s. This was my stereo rig in high school, I even used the preamp to drive a CS400 amp for band practice PA. It got lost in a move when I was in college


----------



## RiverRatt

The missus picked me up some Dogfish Head last Saturday. I've only had one and the meds are wearing off so I think I may sample another.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> The missus picked me up some Dogfish Head last Saturday. I've only had one and the meds are wearing off so I think I may sample another.


I like those hoppy IPAs. Try the Sierra Nevada Torpedo...


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm working on getting that Dynaco pretty hard. This guy is a hard fish to hook. We've traded before.


----------



## johnfv

I'm doing a little work up in Markham area, I know we've got a number of MFers in Canada - I suppose I should say "Hello Ontario!". Temp sure is nicer here than it is in Texas right now...


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I like those hoppy IPAs. Try the Sierra Nevada Torpedo...



I LOVE Sierra Nevada Tumbler! The Torpedo has a citrus finish that I'm not fond of but its good. I have the 90-Minute Dogfish IPA ans some Saufley Oatmeal Stout.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> 90-Minute Dogfish IPA...


That one was a little heavy for me but the Dogfish stuff is good... Pop one of your pain meds with it and you'll really get chatty!


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I'd probably go to sleep.


----------



## RiverRatt

Adwex says the 120-minute is the schiznit but I haven't been able to find it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Got the TAD EL84's and 7025S ready to mail out tomorrow. I didn't test the EL84's, but I did test the 7025's. All tested as high gain except for one. It was reading as a minimum good. Very strange. Good thing I checked them as I sent out the two best ones with each set of EL84's.

The 7025's have a really small plate structure, so it looks like they are built to withstand the abuse of a combo amp. The plates are silver like a NOS Mazda. They also flash upon start up. They have a very small halo getter that looks to be coated.

The 7025's do not come with any tube measurements listed on the box. Everything else that I have gotten from them has the specifications listed on the box. 

The EL84's look to be constructed very well. The TAD EL84's are becoming the OE tube of choice for the upper end amps. It will be interesting to see how they do with eight testers running them through a variety of amps.

I hope all the EL84's are good. I sent out a bad TAD EL34 and that pretty much trashed any reviews from the Canadian team.


----------



## solarburn

Is it wrong we want a ccurate info here or have a discussion regarding it. I haven't seen anyone jeopardize the Tube Stores business here. Besides any business needs to be ready to answer for what they say and do when its openly advertised. Especially when a product is re-catagorized with an increase in price. Its all good if they're right. Relax Tube Store and let the truth set you free.LOL

Marty brush off their villainizations...hopefully they wont shoot themselves in the foot as they "draw" their conclusions. Good grief.


----------



## MartyStrat54

TS is acting like this is the first time anyone had anything negative to say about them.

And Joe, I used that very same phrase in my last email to them. "Good grief."


----------



## ReiGnMaN

MartyStrat54 said:


> Why yes, yes it does.
> 
> 
> 
> They are trying to make me into a villain. They are upset because I said, "It looks like they are on my shit list." They also accused me of being a tube dealer that uses my position as a moderator to "smear" other tube sellers. Have you guys ever seen me smearing other tube vendors here (except for the erroneous info from Euro Tubes)?
> 
> I had to point out to them that I have posted many times where I gave them a positive review for their pricing and customer support. My main issue with them is that their website info seems to be erroneous and premature, as two major US retailers know nothing about SED closing. Also they claim that SED factory seconds were made available to them, but they declined. No other retailer has heard of these factory seconds.
> 
> I contacted another European distributor a little while ago and I hope they can put this to rest. I also contacted SED, but I doubt if they will reply back to me. Will see.
> 
> So far there have been several exchanges of email, but I am sticking to what I said about their comments being erroneous and premature.



In a nutshell,
Bigger business' always fear the little guy who is straight forward, honest and has little overhead. In all fairness, even the best business men KNOW they cannot compete with a certain demographic, the handshake deal market and those types (like myself) prefer a little interaction and some honesty where as a TS usually prefers blind ordering by a 12 year old Asian kid in his bedroom using his parent's paypal account.

I'll jump onto their Shit list, wheres the sign in sheet.


----------



## mickeydg5

Another weird thing is that Shuguang Treasures can be had for about half the price at other places.


----------



## RiverRatt

Have you tried any of the Shuguang Treasures? I really wanted to try a set of KT66's in that Vintage Modern before I traded it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When MoJo sent me the TAD tubes today, I also got my free pair of Celestion G12-60's. For more info on them, go the the speaker thread.

I will say they look very, very nice and free is good!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Have you tried any of the Shuguang Treasures? I really wanted to try a set of KT66's in that Vintage Modern before I traded it.


Maybe when I win the lottery or get a little more richer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Have you tried any of the Shuguang Treasures? I really wanted to try a set of KT66's in that Vintage Modern before I traded it.



If it was me and I wanted to spend that sort of money, I would try and score some real Genalex KT66's. I don't have any actual experience with the Treasures, but I do know that none of the current KT66's sound like an original Genalex. (And some current production KT66's are just a 6L6GC in a KT glass.)

I too wanted to know how the Treasure 6CA7's would sound in a Marshall, but at that price the difference over an EH 6CA7 would have to be phenomenal.

And I'm sure that most of you guys have noticed that quite a few CP 12AX7's are now $25 or higher, with $58 for the Northern Electric being the highest. And yet at those prices we still have what happened today with the TAD 7025's. Three of them tested great and one was just at minimum good. What if you ordered a TAD 7025 and you got one of these? You wouldn't know it was not high gain except maybe to say you didn't think the tube was all that great or worth $25.

No matter how much you pay, or how good the tube looks, with CP there is always a chance for a bad/marginal tube. It is something I just accept.


----------



## mickeydg5

Which takes you back to things that are supposed to have prior testing.

Did the TADs come with any testing information?

Maybe its just me but a premium select tube should not test low and test scorings should provided with the tubes especially for $35 or whatever.


----------



## RiverRatt

With preamp tubes being fairly safe, I'll try them without testing them just so I don't have any preconceived notions. I'm afraid that a lot of the people who have bad tube experiences do so because they get weak or bad tubes and have no way to check them, and don't have the ear to know the difference. Sometimes it's nobody's fault - tubes can go bad during shipping.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Maybe when I win the lottery or get a little more richer.



There were many eBay options in the $100 range.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Which takes you back to things that are supposed to have prior testing.
> 
> Did the TADs come with any testing information?
> 
> Maybe its just me but a premium select tube should not test low and test scorings should provided with the tubes especially for $35 or whatever.



Well Mickey I have said this before. CP tube manufacturers do not spend a lot of time burning in tubes, especially power tubes. This is why Ruby charges more. They do more testing above and beyond what the manufacturer did.

I also stated that tube failure nowadays is accepted. Being known for having a quality product is no longer high on the list. Failure is rectified with providing a replacement. Although getting a replacement within 30 days is pretty easy to do, who wants to get a dud? This is what happened to the TAD EL34 test. One set had a bad EL34. When I say bad, I mean shorted. How Michael RT got his amp to sound good with that bad tube is a wonder.

And as I said, the TAD EL34's and 84's have the PC and TC results listed on the box, but the 7025's did not.

I am going to contact MoJo and let them know about the low reading 84. They already owe me a 34, but they are waiting on a new batch from China and are currently out of stock. MoJo is the US TAD distributor.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I get that about failure rates. A tube can test good one day and be blown the next because of an internal part failure.

If you keep that low reading 7025S watch or track it to see if it is going out.

Still those should be tested too, labeled as such and priced accordingly.
Mark that one specifically and ask the guys testing to compare and note the differences in gain, clarity, presence, freq/sound and such against the stronger tube.
That will be interesting.

You should get your bang for your buck when purchasing any tube so if it test low, performs low then it should be priced low.

Now if it is faulty and goes out that is another story.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've already updated this elsewhere, but MoJo made a mistake and sent me 7025WA's instead of the 7025S's. I was really hoping to test TAD's most expensive offering.

MoJo made me an offer to correct this and I told them to keep the offer on the table and maybe I can set up a tube shoot out using the 7025S, 7025WA and some other premium 12AX7's such as the Northern Electric and Preferred Series 7025. That could be interesting.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Ask the guys testing [the TAD 7025WA's]to compare and note the differences in gain, clarity, presence, freq/sound and such against the stronger tube.



Yeah I guess I could have done that, but I already have the sets boxed and ready to ship.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am sure a lot of people would like a preamp tube shoot out, especially with specifics.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was thinking about using this double tetrode as a preamp tube. What do y'all think?
Notice the 12AX7 in the first photo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


>



If you follow me on Face book then you will know that I posted about a recent UFO sighting here in Muskogee, OK.

I think we have just identified the UFO.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Hey Marty (et al), here's that alleged BEL bottle, plus the Bentley Acoustic.

Clickable thumbs will take you to a higher res version.

First up, the BEL, plates are 14mm ladder type, 2 separate mica's at each end, only one of each has points to locate it in the envelope. Other markings 71 E05, nothing on the bottom of the envelope, 4 seams in the top.



 

 

 

 



Next up the Bentley Acoustic.
Plates are 10mm, asymmetric, there is only a "wing" on one side of each plate, smooth plates, single micas. Getter is on a rectangular post which has a wrapped / folded sleeve between the micas which also acts as an anchor & mica spacer. Other markings are RK printed on the side & 12 moulded into the bottom of the envelope, no top seams on the glass.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, when you said 12mm plates in our prior conversation, I hadn't heard of a BEL being made like that. Anyway, that is a BEL. Some BEL's were constructed better than others. It had a lot to do with the expertise of the employees who put the tubes together.

The Bentley is an RFT.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

My apologies Marty, the 12mm figure was just a guesstimate as I didn't have any form of measuring tool to hand when I looked at the tube. 

Thank for the ID though, that BEL is very lopsided mechanically & sounded terrible.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> ...the difference over an EH 6CA7 would have to be phenomenal...


I do like the EH 6CA7 but at this point I'm thinking the TAD EL34 is a better 6CA7. More testing required...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I'll take a TAD EL34B over the EH 6CA7. I was just comparing apples to apples.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> Thank for the ID though, that BEL is very lopsided mechanically & sounded terrible.



Well I've had tubes where the top mica was crushed up against the tube and had about a 20 degree slant to it and they sounded fine. One was an RCA 7025 and those were considered premium tubes. 

I still think employees put reject tubes in their pockets and sold them on the street.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I still think employees put reject tubes in their pockets and sold them on the street.



[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml6Yqu-spnM]Sesame Street - Would You Like To Buy an O (stereo) - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## JH25

I'm new to the forum. I have read a lot of the post and read a lot about preamp tubes on the net. The main thank I'm curious about is how is gain tested on a 12ax7 some of the on line retailers will test for high gain. This is from a email I sent to one of the online retailers - is a high gain 12ax7 just a tube that tests better than new
> is a low gain one that test under new
> as I high gain tube is used does it slowly become a low gain tube.
the answer to my email was
No, low or high gain is not a measure of quality, it's a measure of.......gain.
Im trying to learn more about preamp tubes but I haven't found much information on how gain is tested.
also if this forum can recommend some good online recourses for tube info like reading codes


----------



## chee16

For 12ax7 tubes there is a spec that the gain can be within and have it be a good tube. Depends on the tester for the actual numbers, but I always thought it was probably somewhere in the area of 85-100% of full potential of the tube design. BUT, I have read elsewhere that some rebranders (nothing wrong with these companies in my opinion) will rate the tubes based on gain, which would be the gain that tube actually achieved on the tester, not the gain it was designed for. 

When you get into gain design is when you get in the variants like 12at7, 12au7, 5751, etc. Which are dual triode tubes that are designed to have less gain.
Tubes

I found the P1 theory in this link really good for explaining how a preamp tube works.
AX84.com - The Cooperative Tube Guitar Amp Project


----------



## MartyStrat54

Read through this old thread from 2006.

http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/190-what-gain-some-asked-me-so-here-we-go.html


----------



## JH25

Thanks for the help, so on a tester like a B&K 707 22/22 represents good and 29/29 equals new. So a low gain would be under 29/29 and a high gain would be over 29/29 like a 35/35. Now the online retailer probably used something designed specially to test for gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

All the good tube testers have different meter scales so they produce different readings.

On most B and K's 22 represents nominal new which is between 65 and 70 percent.

30 is more like 90 percent and 35 would be at or over 100 percent.

The only thing I don't like about the B and K (and some other models that use low scale readings) is that the tube is hit with a very high input voltage. There is a mod for the 707 that I have considered that allows testing in a different socket and uses a lower input voltage and you get a full scale reading. Of course some minor rewiring is necessary, but nothing drastic.

With that in mind, I think the Hickoks and the Triplett 3444 or 3444A are the best vintage testers for preamp tubes. However, you can test a lot of different preamp tubes faster on a B and K.

Also, if you start out with a high gain tube, it will indeed last longer than a tube with a lower reading.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of the Triplett 3444. They are very hard to come by. I just found this and I'm sad. If it was a couple of months ago I would be bidding. Look at the price and it isn't even guaranteed to work.

Vintage Triplett Tube Tester Model 3444 for Radio TV Vacuum Analyzer | eBay











I always considered Triplett as a low cost, emissions tester. I just recently was made aware of the 3444 and 3444A. This probably represents the ultimate vintage tester. It has more tweaks and features than anything I am aware of. With the 3444A, you can match power tubes.

How many of you knew about this tester and all of its features?

Knowing RiverRatt, he'll probably find one in mint condition.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The other thing is if I spent over $1500 on the Triplett, I would probably have another $500 in it for refurbishing and calibrating. At that price, I would just get an Amplitrex 1000.

Amplitrex Audio Products

Some features that I like is:

Easier to set up and use compared to vintage testers.

Better reliability. 

Built in headphone amp to check for microphonics.

Can generate up to 500V on the plates.

No calibration is required.


----------



## JH25

That is very nice but you could buy a lot of tubes for that money. What would your recommend for the tube head on a budget.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the best bang for a few bucks would be a GE or Sylvania. 

I probably sell more Sylvania's than anything else. They are real popular for hard rock and metal as most of them are high gain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From Doug's Tubes in regard to the Ruby 12AX7AC HG+.



> Warm tones, sweet overdrive. Same as TAD 7025-S and Preferred Series 7025. The HG+ are graded for the V1 spot. The new 12AX7AC7 is the latest tube developed at the Shuguang factory for Ruby Tubes. It is the quietest of all Ruby 12AX7 type tubes, both in terms of microphonics and mechanical noise.



I learn something new everyday.


----------



## mickeydg5

Triplett equipment is nice.

Another Triplett 3444A went for $2077 +shipping. The 3444 is practically the same as the 3444A which is fully solid state.

Westmore 501 testers are the same as Triplett 3444(A) and recently sold for $949 +shipping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So the "A" model is solid state with the same features? I had a guy say that the difference was that you could match power tubes with the "A." I assume he meant that it was accurate enough (with high B+) to match power tubes one at a time.

I remember him telling me about the Westmore's.

I love the old stuff, and if I could get a 3444 or 501 for a grand, I would consider it. Otherwise, I would like to find a used Amplitrex 1000, but that would be a really rare opportunity.


----------



## mickeydg5

The Triplett 3444 models operate like the higher end tester of that era. I think what he meant about matching tubes was as in sections because it can test multiple sections, like a 12AX7, on some tubes without rotating switches once set. I believe that is similar to your B&K.

The 3444 and 3444A are not identical. The 3444A is upgraded, has a little different layout and can test more tubes due to extra sockets and a control.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of the Triplett 3444. They are very hard to come by. I just found this and I'm sad. If it was a couple of months ago I would be bidding. Look at the price and it isn't even guaranteed to work.
> 
> Vintage Triplett Tube Tester Model 3444 for Radio TV Vacuum Analyzer | eBay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always considered Triplett as a low cost, emissions tester. I just recently was made aware of the 3444 and 3444A. This probably represents the ultimate vintage tester. It has more tweaks and features than anything I am aware of. With the 3444A, you can match power tubes.
> 
> How many of you knew about this tester and all of its features?
> 
> Knowing RiverRatt, he'll probably find one in mint condition.



I've never heard of it before but now I'm on the case. I should have one by November.

My hand is coming back to life! I've been telling anyone who will listen. Nothing in the fingers yet but it's a start. I know the pain medicine is just good-natured ribbing but I'm taking this very seriously and soberly. I'll kid around about it but I'm not playing space cadet this time.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Hey guys, what do you think about the prospects here? The guy wants $100.






Looks like a couple 12AX7s, a couple 12AU7s a handful of 6qb5s, not sure what else.

This is what I found on it:

http://www.captain-foldback.com/Hammond_sub/schematics/PR40_QR40_1.gif


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> My hand is coming back to life! I've been telling anyone who will listen. Nothing in the fingers yet but it's a start. I know the pain medicine is just good-natured ribbing but I'm taking this very seriously and soberly. I'll kid around about it but I'm not playing space cadet this time.


Sorry, I haven't been around much lately, what happened to your hand & how's it doing?


----------



## JH25

What time period were they making the best quality tubes ?
when did they stop making Bugle Boy , Mini Watt, Valvo ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good tubes were being made in the 1930's, but the preamp tubes we use in guitars came a little later. The 12AX7 was available in 1947. The best USA 12AX7's were made in the early 50's until around 1966. Sylvania is an exception. They made preamp tubes in the 70's and then they were made even longer under the Philips ECG brand.

Later production tubes IMO did not have the same quality control as the earlier made tubes. Also, the later 12AX7's which end in "WA" were basically made for military application and some feel they are a little sterile sounding in the gain slots.

European tubes like you mentioned were in production longer than the USA brands. However, Bugle Boy labeled tubes went out in the early 60's. Of course, the Bugle Boys were made by Amperex and the early Amperex sounds like a Bugle Boy. MiniWatt were also made at the Amperex Herleen factory. MiniWatts were on the market longer than Bugle Boys. I'm not sure when the brand was dropped. Valvo's can be made in Germany, but not exclusively. Valvo's were around into the early 70's I believe.

All the earliest versions of the 12AX7/ECC83 tubes were long plates. These are recognized as having the best tone. They can become microphonic in a guitar amplifier, but due to their quality most of them will work without any problems. These tubes demand a premium price. However, at some point, the tube manufacturers decided that the long plates were not the "safest" design and then they started producing medium and short plate 12AX7's. This is what you see with most 60's production tubes, although they were in production in the late 50's.

When it comes to 12AX7's, I personally like to buy tubes made before 1966. However, certain brands of tubes made after this can still be better than current production tubes.


----------



## JH25

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dogs of Doom said:


> Hey guys, what do you think about the prospects here? The guy wants $100.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a couple 12AX7s, a couple 12AU7s a handful of 6qb5s, not sure what else.
> 
> This is what I found on it:
> 
> http://www.captain-foldback.com/Hammond_sub/schematics/PR40_QR40_1.gif



Try to get it for $50 if you're looking to make any profit. If you just want it for all the cool parts, I would go $100. It has three power amps that share a common power transformer and rectifier. It should have a fairly clean and simple hi-fi preamp. Hammond stuff is benchmark quality. I wouldn't mind having that to play around with.

I had ulnar nerve surgery on my right elbow on 7/11/13. A blood clot quickly formed and wouldn't let the wound drain. Some nerve, tendon and muscle tissue died before they caught it. Right now I have limited feeling in my right hand and the fingers are pretty much useless. I have some hope for recovery, but it may not be much. It'll be over a year before any reconstructive surgery is possible. I spent over 3 weeks in the hospital and had 15 surgeries. I still get tired easily and I've been really down and depressed. Hanging out here feels normal and with the great bunch of friends I have it helps pick me up.

I lost the trade on the Dynaco ST 70. I knew dude would back out.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Thanks Alan,

I'm still on the fence about it. I was thinking of just playing w/ it, but also robbing the tubes...

That's some serious stuff! Sorry to hear. I'll definitely be praying for your healing/recovery. Can you try electro-therapy to help stimulate the muscles/nerves?

something like this?

http://www.lgmedsupply.com/tenz500.html?gclid=CK_m9-uKg7kCFcd_QgodmEAAsA


----------



## brp

Jeesus Alan I didn't know it was that bad and about all that many the surgeries.
I'm very glad to hear it's "coming back to life" so to speak. Best wishes for you on recovery.


----------



## vintagevoltage351

15 surgeries in 21 days Alan...!
You must feel like a zombie after all those anesthetics, get well soon mate.
PS: Those 12ax7's you sent sound superb!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know I always find new stuff online. Tonight I was looking for some info on some old octal preamp tubes and I found this. It is a mega site of tube data sheets all in PDF format.

It's friggin' superb.

I'll share.

electron Tube Data sheets - 1


----------



## mickeydg5

Frank's Electron Tube Pages
I would have thought you had already known about that site.


----------



## JH25

I am new to the forum, I have started reading this thread from page one and I'm on page 30 it has been very educational. I read the entire Touch of Class thread for the Marshall class 5 and I recognize some of the members from that thread. I never posted but it is a very friendly thread. I've been rolling ANOS 12ax7 in the Marshall class 5 to hear the differences in the tubes. Its such a simple amp 1 el84 Hammond Δ from Holland and 2 preamp tubes. I use guitars with humbuckers and play blues rock and metal. 
With help from Marty this is my current line up. It sound killer

Soldano Hot Rod 50+

V1 - Mullerd 12ax7 32-35 High gain
*V2 - *Sylvania Grey Plate Baldwin 12ax7 35/36 High Gain 
*V3 - GE 12AX7WA 
V4 - GE 12AX7WA
V5 - *PI Sylvania Grey Plate Baldwin 12ax7 35/48 Lopsided

v1= 1st stage for both channels, 2nd for Normal 
v2= two more gain stages 
v3= last gain stage for both channels, EFX loop driver
v4= tone controls
v5= PI

But I just got a Telefunken another Mullerd and 2 Amperex all 12ax7's 
I haven't tried the Amperex (they are on the way) I also have 6 Sylvania Grey Plate 12ax7 I have some other amps to retube but the Soldano is my main amp. Any suggestions on a line up change. I'm still collecting so if there is a tube that you thank I should try in the amp let me know. The GE's I got of ebay they test between good and nos. I keep the treble and the presents under 5 on the dial except when I play metal I crank both up to maybe 7 on the dial.

also preamp tube suggestions for my DSL100 from what's leftover after my Soldano would be great.
DSL 100 
V1-First Gain Stage
V2-2nd Gain Stage
V3-Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4-Phase Inverter.

Thanks.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Frank's Electron Tube Pages
> I would have thought you had already known about that site.



Mickey, I quit trying to save everything and after a while it is new to me again.

I can't remember if I have stumbled on to this before. Hell I may have already posted the link here in 2010.

But I do have to ask why you call it Frank's? I don't see that name on the website and when it came up on my search engine, it didn't say anything about Frank.

Are you sure it isn't Eddie's Electron Tube Pages?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Because when you go to the home page, it says so...

Frank's Electron tube Pages


----------



## MartyStrat54

JH25-Looks like you got the Soldano all hooked up with a nice line up.

Try some Amperex's in the V1 slot and pick the best sounding one. You can then try another Amperex or Sylvania in V2. V3 and V4 can be some more Sylvania's.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey, I quit trying to save everything and after a while it is new to me again.
> 
> I can't remember if I have stumbled on to this before. Hell I may have already posted the link here in 2010.
> 
> But I do have to ask why you call it Frank's? I don't see that name on the website and when it came up on my search engine, it didn't say anything about Frank.
> 
> Are you sure it isn't Eddie's Electron Tube Pages?


 
Ha, ha, haa.
Yes, I know how easy it is to forget everything. That is why I create and collect favorites links under specific favorites folders.

Click on any of the three buttons on the top left of the page and you will see.
Also notice the button with "F electron tube P", the electron tube part being a symbol.
The SEARCH on the site is very helpful.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dogs of Doom said:


> Because when you go to the home page, it says so...
> 
> Frank's Electron tube Pages



 I looked for a "home page" but didn't see it. Now I see that it is the middle (small) icon in the upper left hand corner of the search page.

And yes Mickey, I have posted this link here before. Maybe more than once.

(There for about fifteen minutes I was feeling good and thinking I had found something new. It sucks when you have seen all the tube links on the Internet and forget about which one's you've seen.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Click on any of the three buttons on the top left of the page and you will see.
> 
> Also notice the button with "F electron tube P", the electron tube part being a symbol.
> 
> The SEARCH on the site is very helpful.



Yeah I already found that out on my own. I barely noticed the icons. I like great big icons and the website name at the top of every page.

And yes, I save my favorite links, but I have so many it is pretty hilarious when I have to look for a specific one.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well it helps to mention it again for all others that may be interested.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

The 1 benefit of dementia/alzheimer's/senility - you get the advantage of 1st time experiences all over again...


----------



## MartyStrat54

*With my ex-wive's???*

Oh lord I hope not.


----------



## bonanza2252003

I'm trying to reduce the gain a bit in my DSL. (100 Watt). What I'm after is a richer less compressed (more Plexi ish sound with a nicer clean and a little more organic less compressed high gain but that still sings like an old full tilt plexi but with slightly more gain ? Any suggestions on what preamp tubes to use and where ?

Also want to add that I love lots of mids and a bright sounding amp . Would just like more plexi oomph and note separation/clarity and that organic plexi feedback that is so easy to control .but maintain a descent amount of gain on the high gain channel . I however do not need or use the massive amounts of gain I get with the Tungsol 12ax7's that are in it now .Hoping to tame the uncontrollable feedback too when it is cranked up a bit on the high gain channel.

any help would be appreciated .


----------



## mickeydg5

It sounds like Bonanza needs a weaker full bodied tube up front. Maybe even a 5751. It will be interesting to read the recommendations.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I would agree to use a NOS 5751, not a current production tube. 

This will knock your gain down some and a good 5751 is definitely a detailed sounding tube.

I also know guys that use two 5751's in their DSL's in V1 and V2. You may have to go this route as well if the 5751 in V1 doesn't drop the gain like you want.


----------



## RiverRatt

Throwing gain out the window, a smooth plate Telefunken can go a long ways toward accomplishing all your goals. That would be my first choice.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Yesterday the postman delivered a little cardboard cube, a present ? for me ? Well kinda, a Telefunken ribbed plate & a black plate Raytheon - Thanks Marty !!! 

I won't have chance to try them until tomorrow evening at the earliest, but I can't wait.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You got your package pretty quick. Some of my UK customers have had to wait over two weeks. I'm glad they arrived safely.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

MartyStrat54 said:


> You got your package pretty quick. Some of my UK customers have had to wait over two weeks. I'm glad they arrived safely.



Indeed, HMRC kept their grubby mits off it too, which helps, so no extra charges. This is the first time EVER for stuff I've bought from the US & not been charged any kind of fees.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have ways of sending the tubes that prevents you paying duty fees. 

The trick is to keep the declared value under $50 and send as "used" and a "gift."


----------



## bonanza2252003

Ok . I'm game . Now where do I get a NOS 5751 ?

and Thanks 



MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I would agree to use a NOS 5751, not a current production tube.
> 
> This will knock your gain down some and a good 5751 is definitely a detailed sounding tube.
> 
> I also know guys that use two 5751's in their DSL's in V1 and V2. You may have to go this route as well if the 5751 in V1 doesn't drop the gain like you want.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> *With my ex-wive's???*
> 
> Oh lord I hope not.


you may never know...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have NOS GE 5751 Black Plates, but they all test real strong and I'm afraid that they may almost be as stout as a 12AX7. If you want to try one, I can send it to you. You would be responsible for shipping (Need a PayPal account). If you don't like it, you just ship it back to me.


----------



## solarburn

bonanza2252003 said:


> I'm trying to reduce the gain a bit in my DSL. (100 Watt). What I'm after is a richer less compressed (more Plexi ish sound with a nicer clean and a little more organic less compressed high gain but that still sings like an old full tilt plexi but with slightly more gain ? Any suggestions on what preamp tubes to use and where ?
> 
> Also want to add that I love lots of mids and a bright sounding amp . Would just like more plexi oomph and note separation/clarity and that organic plexi feedback that is so easy to control .but maintain a descent amount of gain on the high gain channel . I however do not need or use the massive amounts of gain I get with the Tungsol 12ax7's that are in it now .Hoping to tame the uncontrollable feedback too when it is cranked up a bit on the high gain channel.
> 
> any help would be appreciated .



V1 Telefunken and V2 Raytheon BP. All your vintages tones should come out of your. Green channel crunch voicing. Learn to boost it it just a bit and its as close to vintage as one can get a EL34'd DSL. The right speaker/cab and pick ups matter even more.


The new 2012 Plexitone Single or Wampler Pinnacle will get you there. No lower gain tube will reach it. Better Ways do it and what I've outlined is solid vintage goodness. It will be damned close.

I've got my OR15 doing Plexi with the Plexitone and clips to prove it. Good ole NOS pres and CP TAD EL84's. EC1000 with a DiMarzio SD in the bridge and a 412.loaded with G12M's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Read Post #37 (Page 2) of this thread and report back over here.

http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/30967-best-paf-pickups.html


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Read Post #37 (Page 2) of this thread and report back over here.
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/tone-zone/30967-best-paf-pickups.html


Why?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaker direction is controlled by tone controls.


----------



## Stymie13

solarburnDSL50 said:


> V1 Telefunken and V2 Raytheon BP. All your vintages tones should come out of your. Green channel crunch voicing. Learn to boost it it just a bit and its as close to vintage as one can get a EL34'd DSL. The right speaker/cab and pick ups matter even more.
> 
> I've got my OR15 doing Plexi with the Plexitone and clips to prove it. Good ole NOS pres and CP TAD EL84's. EC1000 with a DiMarzio SD in the bridge and a 412.loaded with G12M's.



Joe knows. V1 Tele V2 Raytheon BP is fireworks. Coupled with DiMarzios into a 412 GB loaded cab is GANDALF the Wizard fireworks.


----------



## solarburn

stymie13 said:


> joe knows. V1 tele v2 raytheon bp is fireworks. Coupled with dimarzios into a 412 gb loaded cab is gandalf the wizard fireworks.



lmao!


----------



## johnfv

Stymie13 said:


> ...GANDALF the Wizard fireworks.


Just got home from a gig. Totally LOL over this one!

JV


----------



## johnfv

This is why I should not come here after gigs at 3 AM. No one left to come out and play. See y'all tomorrow MFers...


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaker direction is controlled by tone controls.



All I had to do was read this and I knew it was going to be a Dreyn post.
What in the serious f**k? How does he come up with this shit?


----------



## johnfv

brp said:


> ...I knew it was going to be a Dreyn post...


I must admit that I pretty much ignore that stuff. BRP, you are west coast? Still awake, eh?


----------



## Georgiatec

mickeydg5 said:


> It sounds like Bonanza needs a weaker full bodied tube up front. Maybe even a 5751. It will be interesting to read the recommendations.



I tried a Mullard ECC82 in V1 which seems to have the same effect...maybe drops the gain too much. Sure gets rid of the feedback though, loads of headroom on the green channel and can always hit it with a good o/d up front for more dirt


----------



## RiverRatt

Yech. An ECC82 is a 12AU7, and I've yet to hear one sound good in a Marshall. Shoot me a PM and I'll send you a good, crunchy 12AX7 tube to try. All I ask is reimbursement for the shipping cost. You're still going to get plenty of clean headroom - you just have to dial in the preamp. 

Dammit, you guys are making me want a DSL again!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Will you send me a free tube?


----------



## mickeydg5

I meant why as in "why oh why" and "why bother".
Hopefully people can figure things out.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I knew what you meant. I'm pretty sure if I post a link for you, you will go to it. 

I did do some additional commenting over there in case some newbie came along and believed Dreyn about the tone controls controlling speaker movement.

His thoughts he made on the current PAF thread is a good read as well.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Will you send me a free tube?



Yes. PM me your address just to make sure I have the latest one.


----------



## mickeydg5

Georgiatec said:


> I tried a Mullard ECC82 in V1 which seems to have the same effect...maybe drops the gain too much. Sure gets rid of the feedback though, loads of headroom on the green channel and can always hit it with a good o/d up front for more dirt


 
Changing from an ECC83/12AX7 to an ECC82/12AU7 is a big difference.
That is dropping from a 100 amplification factor to one of about 17-20. Even changing to a 12AY7 type is a drastic change which is an amplification factor of about 40-44.

So there will still be a difference between a 12AX7 and 5751 as well with amplification factors 100 versus 70. The signal strength from the 5751 will be about 2-3dB less than a 12AX7 type.

Also there will be characteristic and dynamic differences between tube types which dictates that each will react a specific way given the same set of variables.

Pedals do the same sort of thing to the signal. The boost part is adding gain while the distortion part is contouring the signal. So when placing a pedal that boosts in front or in the loop you are actually adding more gain stage(s) in the signal chain.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Oh I knew what you meant. I'm pretty sure if I post a link for you, you will go to it.
> 
> I did do some additional commenting over there in case some newbie came along and believed Dreyn about the tone controls controlling speaker movement.
> 
> His thoughts he made on the current PAF thread is a good read as well.


Hee, hee.
I have read the thread.
So I take it a bass player only works with a negative DC type signal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Yes. PM me your address just to make sure I have the latest one.



I want a Mazda Silver Plate or a Telefunken 803.


----------



## mickeydg5

I bet he is fresh out of those!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I want a Mazda Silver Plate or a Telefunken 803.



You know, I think I'm out of those. Let it be a surprise. I have some nice 6AN8's and lots of stuff. How about some octal pre's?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you have any triple triode Compactrons? 6AC10, 6MN8 or 6C10?

I also find the Compactron power tubes fascinating as well. 12 up to 40 watt versions. I've always wondered what a guitar amp would sound like with one of these? I'm thinking it would be like a pair of 7868's.


----------



## brp

johnfv said:


> BRP, you are west coast? Still awake, eh?



Yep, was out late at my Boss's "BBQ" eating lobster and shmoozing with the Masonic brother's mistresses


----------



## MartyStrat54

I love free lobster. I usually make a pig out of myself.


----------



## brp

Ya this chick flew in yesterday from Halifax and brought a case of fresh lobster on the plane for us. And yes I kinda stuffed myself. It was sooo good.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gotta have some melted butter. Yummy.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Do you have any triple triode Compactrons? 6AC10, 6MN8 or 6C10?
> 
> I also find the Compactron power tubes fascinating as well. 12 up to 40 watt versions. I've always wondered what a guitar amp would sound like with one of these? I'm thinking it would be like a pair of 7868's.



I have one 6C10 which I believe to be NOS NIB. I have no way to test them. I have tons of 6U10 tubes. From what I understand the 6C10 is 3 12AX7 triodes where the 6U10 is two 12AU7 and one 12AX7 triode.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my 707 will test some Compactrons, but it can't test three triodes.


----------



## EndGame00

Here you go... Any idea who made this?

This one has VLVE-90067


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is this tube out of a new Vietnamese made DSL40?

One of the forum members has a 90067 tube in this amp.

Currently for preamp tubes, Marshall is using Shuguang's and JJ's.

That picture isn't the greatest, but it looks like a JJ ECC83 to me. Also the logo is in the way and I can't see the top of the tube guts very well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Does it look like this?


----------



## EndGame00

I have the made in Vietnam DSL.

It's slightly less brighter than the JJ ECC83S I replaced it with.


----------



## bonanza2252003

Thanks Marty . I have paypal .just let me know how and when to proceed 

cheers 




MartyStrat54 said:


> I have NOS GE 5751 Black Plates, but they all test real strong and I'm afraid that they may almost be as stout as a 12AX7. If you want to try one, I can send it to you. You would be responsible for shipping (Need a PayPal account). If you don't like it, you just ship it back to me.


----------



## bonanza2252003

I have three overdrives on my pedal board . one is a rangemaster clone, a reissue TS808 and a fulltone secret freq. and I usually use my g12h30 (75hz) loaded 4x12 for gigs but also have a G12M 4x12 which I use occasionally and another 2x12 g12h30 (55hz) for smaller venues. Also a coulple of historics ,Korina V and a Gretsch Duo jet that I primarily use for gigging . All have low output PAF style humbuckers. (except the gretsh which has TV Jones filtertrons but they are low output too.)

I'm getting very close and do roll down the gain and get close without using pedals . 

I primarily use the clean channel with gain maxed and a boost (for rhythm) and I do get very close . but I am wanting to run the preamp on the clean channel hotter but without the distortion .so when I shut off the boost the clean channel stays a little more lively/glassy

My lead channel (gain ) is backed off to 3 or 4 (out of ten ) and the same occurs .would like to run the gain/pre hotter but without all the added gain . 

I'm finding when I back the gain off to where I like it the amp gets a little to sterile , The boost puts it back to where it livens up again but would like it to be a little livelier before boosting by running the pre hotter .

Really lovin the amp but I was thinking the lower gain tube just might do the trick for me by being able to run the pre hotter thus making my cleans a little more shimmery and on the lead channel I would be able to add a little more gain without the squeal and have it be less compressed.

hope this all makes sense . basically just trying to get a little bit closer to a maxed 1959 SL . I am already very close but would like to see if I can get a even closer.







solarburnDSL50 said:


> V1 Telefunken and V2 Raytheon BP. All your vintages tones should come out of your. Green channel crunch voicing. Learn to boost it it just a bit and its as close to vintage as one can get a EL34'd DSL. The right speaker/cab and pick ups matter even more.
> 
> 
> The new 2012 Plexitone Single or Wampler Pinnacle will get you there. No lower gain tube will reach it. Better Ways do it and what I've outlined is solid vintage goodness. It will be damned close.
> 
> I've got my OR15 doing Plexi with the Plexitone and clips to prove it. Good ole NOS pres and CP TAD EL84's. EC1000 with a DiMarzio SD in the bridge and a 412.loaded with G12M's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

PM sent.


----------



## ReiGnMaN

So here's the latest.....

My Randall is cooked. Yup, as in I smelled burning components and went to shut her off before the led shut off......

Regardless what the outlet shows me, there HAS to be a problem. 

When I first acquired my jcm800, I could dime the preamp and NEVER hear feedback (believe it or not) now, at 3, if the volume is up past 6:30-7:00 it's uncontrollable. Something electrically must be wrong and now I'm paying the price.... After playing here for several years and never having an issue. Weird thing is, everything else in my house works perfectly. 

No amps are going to be played here worth a damn from now on until I can afford to have an electrician come out and check over things...


F.M.L.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's a drag. Hope it gets rectified.

RIP Randall.


----------



## solarburn

To bonanza,

The DSL is only going to get so close. I know I've tried. The green crunch channel is as open and un-congested as that amp can get. Short of getting a vintage circuit(another amp)less preamp and more power amp is needed. Problem is its hard to get the right balance and have it be warm organic and feel pliable...not stiff or sterile.

You've covered a lot of ground already with pick ups and speakers although H30's to my ears contributed to myDSL sounding a bit brittle when backing off guitar volume.. I had a 412 loaded with them. I preferred V30'sand of for sure the G12m's.


----------



## solarburn

bonanza2252003 said:


> I have three overdrives on my pedal board . one is a rangemaster clone, a reissue TS808 and a fulltone secret freq. and I usually use my g12h30 (75hz) loaded 4x12 for gigs but also have a G12M 4x12 which I use occasionally and another 2x12 g12h30 (55hz) for smaller venues. Also a coulple of historics ,Korina V and a Gretsch Duo jet that I primarily use for gigging . All have low output PAF style humbuckers. (except the gretsh which has TV Jones filtertrons but they are low output too.)
> 
> I'm getting very close and do roll down the gain and get close without using pedals .
> 
> I primarily use the clean channel with gain maxed and a boost (for rhythm) and I do get very close . but I am wanting to run the preamp on the clean channel hotter but without the distortion .so when I shut off the boost the clean channel stays a little more lively/glassy
> 
> : My lead channel (gain ) is backed off to 3 or 4 (out of ten ) and the same occurs .would like to run the gain/pre hotter but without all the added gain .
> 
> I'm finding when I back the gain off to where I like it the amp gets a little to sterile , The boost puts it back to where it livens up again but would like it to be a little livelier before boosting by running the pre hotter .
> 
> Really lovin the amp but I was thinking the lower gain tube just might do the trick for me by being able to run the pre hotter thus making my cleans a little more shimmery and on the lead channel I would be able to add a little more gain without the squeal and have it be less compressed.
> 
> hope this all makes sense . basically just trying to get a little bit closer to a maxed 1959 SL . I am already very close but would like to see if I can get a even closer.



I'm jus thinking out loud...when I roll back guitar volume on both my Super Distortion equipped guitars the tone warms up. I know pafs in the bridge slot can be cutting depending & can ride the upper mid to high frequencies. Getting these amps and guitars that cut through so well and then findinng that sweet spot while playing out in different venues where acoustics keep changing is a tall order to fill indeed.

Some preamp tubes can help warm it up if its getting stiff but so can power tubes unless you're not able to turn up loud enough to get out of preamp gain. So many variables and you have addressed many of them with the DSL. I always found it a challenge to be more plexi like without becoming brittle, stiff or sterile. The right tubes will have some effect I've found with mine. Sounds like you just might be close enuff but I do understand wanting closer.LOL


----------



## solarburn

Bonanza I also see you say you use the clean channel with gain maxed. Have you experimented with the crunch channel(button)too. I found some really great vintage tones there especially with certain pedals. Plus I could roll off to cleans I thought were just fine. The crunch voicing cleans up very well even with pedals. I always liked dynamics there too.

To be accurate I really didn't have my DSL down until about a year of playing and tweaking. After tube changes...speaker...pups and exploring every eq setting I dialed in...it took about a year to sort out what the amp could cover and what it only came close too. Then I found I stayed mostly on the Crunch channel cause I'm mostly a rocker...not much heavy or modern comes out of me. So for me I'd just make the amp with a crunch channel and 1 lead channel. Plus loop.LOL


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Fleabay win, five RCA 12AX7A dated 67-48 NOS boxed:

RCA 12AX7A valves in original boxes - quantity FIVE | eBay

Did I get a deal, or did I blow my beer money ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is that about $80USD? 

Those were made seven years before 1974. That is when RCA stopped tube production. I think these were still well made tubes and I think you did fine on the price. 

I have bought and sold quite a few of these RCA's made between 1964 and 1970 and they sound very smooth in the gain stages.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Yep, about $80 inc shipping.

Once I've tried the Tele & Raytheon in the DSL I will give these a go too, just to see how they sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

Bonanza, I still think you'd really like that smooth plate Telefunken in V1 and put a black plate Raytheon in V2. I'm sure Marty can hook you up with something to try. My rock tone is AC~DC (Bon Scott era) and Def Leppard's Pyromania album. My DSL came damned close to that with those tubes. I ran it almost exclusively on the green crunch channel with the gain at around 1:00. Maybe the most important setting is the master volume. The amp really starts to come alive with the master above 4.

I'm an overdrive junkie too, and the settings above are very responsive when you goose it with some good OD pedal.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Bonanza, I still think you'd really like that smooth plate Telefunken in V1 and put a black plate Raytheon in V2.



Oh for sure, but it never hurts to have a choice does it  

I saw these pop up in my RSS feed & figured they were worth a punt, at that price they represent quite a bargain on Ebay UK

Apart from the DSL50, I have a DSL401, JMP1 (rackmount), SL-X & a 20/20 power amp. Still in bits is a 2204 clone & at some point I really want a 1987 too ( I deeply regret ever selling my Lead & Bass 50).

I'm sure they will find a home.


----------



## blackie13

how much would a philips ecc83 worth?
The name is writen on the tube and the box is yellow...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there's a good chance that the tube may be a different brand with the Philips name on it, or it could be a Philips. Are there any microscopic codes near the bottom of the tube?

Is it being sold as new in box or new old stock?


----------



## blackie13

it is a nos tube


----------



## RiverRatt

Gonna need pictures for this one... both the tube and the box.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Whats a good affordable current production 5751 to try with my DSL to lower the gain?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Like I told you, I only know of two, the JJ and the Sovtek. There is not much of a call for a CP 5751's. A 5751 can always be subbed for a 12AX7 and vice versa, that's why there isn't many CP 5751's available.

The JJ is the cheaper of the two.

You might be able to find a used one on EBAY in the $20 range.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Yeah I know, I thought I'd ask here too. So if I order a JJ 5751 are there any options I would want or just go standard?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Call them up and tell them you are looking for lower gain and hopefully they will send you a "weak" 5751. 

Although I don't know if JJ's have the tube specs printed on the box? Most preamp tubes don't have this info.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Thanks for the advice appreciate it.


----------



## RiverRatt

If you want the real thing, check out eBay like Marty said. A five-star GE black plate triple mica 5751 cost me $35 shipped. I'm afraid that any CP 5751's you buy will just be a weak 12AX7. I have a couple of CP 5751's that test higher than most of my 12AX7's. Spend a little more and get the real thing, you'll be glad you did. If it doesn't work out, you can always sell it and get your money back out of it.

These are the ones I'm talking about. The three on the bottom right are Sylvania. Some people believe they sound a little better than GE 5751's, but if you compare prices on eBay, there's not enough difference in tone to justify the cost.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a question for you gurus (guri?): Did new tubes come from the factory with bent pins, or is that a sign that your tube has been used?


----------



## mickeydg5

I thought you were a tube guru.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, I wouldn't give myself that title. Every time I start thinking I know something, a tube comes along that blows that notion all to hell. I don't think anyone can know everything about tubes, but there are plenty of people who know a lot more than I do. 

I try to make it a habit of using a pin-straightener on every tube before I test it. Even if they are already straight it cleans some of the oxidation off. I've noticed that a lot of tubes that I think are NOS will have bent pins out of the box.


----------



## mickeydg5

I would hope a NOS tube to have straight clean pins. I believe anything can happen though form mishandling before leaving the factory to technicians throwing stuff into an old box or bin. My point is some people just do not care that much even if they are supposed to be "professional"; as long as it is not broke and appears to work who cares attitude.

Straighten, clean, TEST and repeat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Straighten, clean, TEST and repeat.



This is what I do. Before shipping I straighten the pins (again), clean the pins (again) and test the tube (again). 

Alan-I personally have never received a CP tube with bent pins. 

And as far as NOS/NIB tubes, the pins can always be oxidized.

At this point, I think a lot of the NIB tubes being sold right now are basically used. The tube could have been used by a repairman for troubleshooting and then he put the tube back in the box and then it sat for 30 years. No way to tell if a tube has been used or sold and then used again and resold in the OE box.

I have a lot of vintage OE boxes that I could stick a clean used tube in and then list it on EBAY as NIB. It's sort of like making a fake picture. If it's a good fake, some dumb ass will buy it.

Now I saw a guy selling Telefunkens ECC83's that had the factory plastic wrap on them. Those were genuine NIB tubes and the bids he got were reflecting this.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

My NOS RCA's arrived yesterday, but today was the first chance I got to run them. I rolled them all through V1 of my DSL50, not so much for tone, more just to test they were functional.

They certainly look genuine. Old packaging with correct logos, pins are all dead straight & oxidised as I'd expect from unused 45yr old valves.

They are all strong, 2 in particular are as good as my blue Mazda (RFT) & sound very sweet. They don't give quite the same roar as the Mazda, but they drive real nice even on green clean channel. With everything flat out on Ultra 2 they still remain controlled. On top of all that they are remarkably quiet, there is very little hiss or hum even on Ultra 2.

I'll shoot some pics & add them shortly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah you got the last era of good RCA tubes before they started making junk.

One thing for sure, there are a lot of loyal RCA users out there.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Right, first up some pics of the RCA's, all the pics are clickable thumbs & should take you to a hi-res image. 

They have ribbed / ladder type plates approx 13mm (probably 1/2" ) & a small halo getter offset to the back of the envelope, assuming the gap in the pins is the "front".

The micas are chopped off each side parallel with the plates, silk screening is excellent on all if a little soft & fragile.

There is a small triangle or V moulded into the glass on the bottom of each valve. They each have a number in the space for the 10th pin; 5, 8, two with 12 and one with 15.





















I also picked up another NOS Mazda / RFT. Gain is huge, probably even better than the other Mazda so I can try the DSL with 2 of them YAY !!!.

Typical RFT construction with star shaped micas, asymmetric plates & slanted halo getter, pale blue silk screen, soft & fragile like the RCA's. It has the number 10 moulded in the the bottom of the glass too. Not sure of it's age, but the box dates from after Mazda were purchased by the Thorn group.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Very nicely done with the pictures.

Anytime you have a Mazda box or a Mazda ECC83 with "Foreign" on it, it will "not" be a Mazda and generally is an RFT. The blue print is a giveaway as well. Just like a Raytheon with "Certified" or "Registered" in yellow print. Those are Matsushita's.

Nothing wrong with the RFT. I wish I had more of them.

You have been buying a lot of tubes lately. Good for you.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

MartyStrat54 said:


> Very nicely done with the pictures.



Thanks Marty, the camera & setup is nothing special at all, an old 4MP Canon Powershot 430 in macro mode. Lighting is one of those little 4" magnifying desk lamp with the fluorescent tube & a sheet of copier paper for a background.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Anytime you have a Mazda box or a Mazda ECC83 with "Foreign" on it, it will "not" be a Mazda and generally is an RFT.
> 
> Nothing wrong with the RFT. I wish I had more of them.



From my recent tube rolling I've concluded I absolutely love the sound of a good RFT. I still need to try other combinations with the Tele & Raytheon too, but I like the RFT's so much it's a real close race at this point.



MartyStrat54 said:


> You have been buying a lot of tubes lately. good for you.



I have, the RCA's were a lucky find & I very nearly didn't get them. I use an RSS ticker in Firefox to read new items from my Ebay searches, so I tend to see them before the casual buyers find them. They usually pop up within 15 minutes of being listed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah a lot of guys love the RFT's. They are like Sylvania's in respect to being high gain. All the RFT's I have test very high gain. I bought 20 NOS RFT's from a seller in Germany. I would like to get some more, but they have gone up in price. I am on the lookout for a large lot of them.

The RFT's is the best NOS option for smoothing the high end of an amp. I've sold an RFT for V1 and a Sylvania for V2 for metal applications. Very high gain tubes for high gain amps.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think the RCA tubes have a warm, smooth tone as well, but I didn't like them in my old DSL50. Like you said about the "roar" BJ, they aren't strong in mids which is kind of the opposite of what Marshalls are about.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I guess RCA would have been one of the standard suppliers to Fender ?

I certainly felt they gave the green channel a slightly more "Fender" flavour. I don't have a plexi style circuit to test them in, but I bet they would be nice in such an amp.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yep, I think that's one of the first things me & Joe agreed on way back in the first few pages of the thread. We both had RCA 12AX7's and we both agreed that they sounded "Fender-y" in our DSL's.

I prefer Sylvania tubes in a Fender amp actually. The older the better. I used to have a bunch of Sylvania black plate JHS-12AX7's and they were damned good tubes in a Fender and not too bad in a Marshall.


----------



## RiverRatt

I think you'll find that tubes made by Philips-owned companies tend to sound better in a Marshall. The first Marshall amps were designed around the Mullard valves available at the time, so to me it seems natural that anything similar is going to sound good. There were a LOT of Philips companies making similar tubes in the 1960's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> I guess RCA would have been one of the standard suppliers to Fender?



They were and Leo Fender was known to "pirate" RCA amp designs, similar to Jim Marshall copying the Fender Bassman. See...everybody took a little from each other back then.

Most vintage Fenders used "real" RCA 7025's in the gain stages.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

All this F talk is tempting me to try them in the DSL401 

Noooooo, that way leads to the dark side 

I must resist the urge to roll another amp before I've settled on the valve arrangement for the DSL50.


----------



## chee16

RiverRatt said:


> I think you'll find that tubes made by Philips-owned companies tend to sound better in a Marshall. The first Marshall amps were designed around the Mullard valves available at the time, so to me it seems natural that anything similar is going to sound good. There were a LOT of Philips companies making similar tubes in the 1960's.



I know that the Mullard I63 I put in V1 of my TSL602 is amazing and has made me start searching for backups. It hasn't come out since, it just sounds exactly the way I want my clean to sound. V2 is still a toss up, I have : EI smoothplate, Amperex Hytron label, Sylvania 7025a, RCA shortplate, Raytheon Long blackplate, Sylvania 12ax7a and some GE 12ax7a.

So far my impresssions are that the EI and Amperex sound similar but the EI is pretty loose and noisy. I like the Raytheon. The one that surprised me was the 7025a. Totally different sound then the others, but with some EQ tweaks I think it gives my crunch a more vintage feel and tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> All this F talk is tempting me to try them in the DSL401
> 
> Noooooo, that way leads to the dark side
> 
> I must resist the urge to roll another amp before I've settled on the valve arrangement for the DSL50.



I've never owned a DSL combo amp but I've gravitated toward combo amps over the last couple of years, all of them 50 watts or below. My go-to amp is a Fender Super 112. I know the Fender Rivera-designed amps have a bad reputation, but they are really nice amps as long as you don't expect them to be like a tweed or blackface. The OD channel has a mid and a presence control and it covers a lot of tones. I use Tungsrams in the gain stages. They are really meaty sounding tubes that seem to sound great in just about anything.


----------



## RiverRatt

I forgot to post what I got on here to post in the first place. You don't see these at the local flea market. I borrowed the photo from an eBay auction. This is a Soviet military tube tester, model L3-3.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Since we are showing pictures, I am dealing with an overseas customer that has one of these extremely rare Gibson amps. About 300 were made between 1959-1961. This one is from the J. Geils collection and was listed at $3000. True stereo output into (4) 8-inch Jensen's and (1) 12-inch Jensen. (I could not import any of the pictures.)

Tubes: 13 total (4x12AX7, 12AU7, 3x6CG7, 4x6BQ5, GZ34)

Gibson GA-83S Stereo-Vib (tweed) c.1959-61


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a cool amp. I don't know why they used those 6CG7 tubes. They are so close to a 12AU7 that I'd just re-wire the sockets for them. I have several hundred 6CG7/6FQ7's if you want a few.

I have a 1952-53 Gibsonette in pieces. It doesn't have a model number. The tubes are a 6SJ7, two 6V6's and a 5Y3 rectifier. It has a nice Jensen field coil 10" speaker. The chassis isn't bad but the cabinet is pretty much FUBAR.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I'm on a roll it seems....just picked up a pair of NOS Amperex 7025's

Pair of Amperex 12AX7 7025 variant | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

Those are Sylvania tubes. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but there were a couple of other flags. Philco won a ridiculous lawsuit against Philips back in the early days by claiming that the Philips name could be confused with Philco. The Ford Motor Co. owned Philco from 1961 to the mid-1970s, when GTE/Sylvania bought the company. GTE sold the company to Philips in 1981. 

It's hard to be sure with all the re-branding that went on while the tube industry collapsed, but I'll bet that your tubes are just ordinary Sylvania 12AX7s that were re-branded in Canada between 1974 and 1981.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, another clue is the "A North American Philips Company" on the box. That's a red flag that the tube isn't from Holland.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-I left you some pictures over at your "carnivore" thread yesterday. I did a little cooking of my own.

http://www.marshallforum.com/backstage/60209-over-doing-lunch-warning-carnivores-only.html


----------



## Blacque Jacque

RiverRatt said:


> Those are Sylvania tubes......



Hmmmm, oh well, not a horrendous price for Sylvanias I suppose, but not bargain Amperex ones 

We'll see how they sound when they arrive.

I'll put some pics up & ask you guys to give me a positive id on them.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I will say right now they are Sylvania's and probably late 70's production. Keep in mind that Philips ended up dissolving their European holdings and ended up buying Sylvania.

Also, Amperex was a New York based company that Philip's acquired and then used the Amperex name to sell their Holland made tubes.



> Located at 79 Washington Street in Brooklyn, New York, Amperex was a long established manufacturer of transmitting tubes when they were acquired by the giant Dutch firm, Phillips in 1955 or so. Phillips continued to improve and enlarge the transmitting plant in New York, but also used the Amperex name to distribute their fine new line of Dutch made minis, (12AX7, 12AU7, 12AT7) to feed the booming U.S. Hi-Fi market. These sweet & airy, but still full and solid sounding tubes have been the favorite of music lovers for 45 years!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of Amperex. Do you guys see anything odd about this Amperex tube? (As being sold on EBAY.)


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, another clue is the "A North American Philips Company" on the box. That's a red flag that the tube isn't from Holland.





I did some researching on this and I found out that Philips sold Holland made "Bugle Boys" in these same exact boxes. This would have been around 1955 when Philips acquired Amperex.

I knew that the main reason that Philips acquired Amperex was as a means to sell their Holland made tubes under the guise of an American company. This all happened when the tube hifi market was booming in the USA.

So my statement is incorrect. Amperex used this same box for a long time and Holland made tubes were sold in them as a means to fool American's about the "country of origin." At some point the FTC demanded that the "country of origin" be printed on the box. Of course the tube manufacturers complied by using the smallest print possible.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Speaking of Amperex. Do you guys see anything odd about this Amperex tube? (As being sold on EBAY.)



Yeah. It's a Shuguang.


----------



## mickeydg5

Very West German. I did not know Germany's reach extended that far.

Did Philips/Amperex even have a factory in West Germany?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You mean it's not an Amperex???

I wonder how many people get suckered into buying these?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah German Amperex's were made in a little farm community south of Munich. 

Part of the huge Felipe company.


----------



## mickeydg5

So its a Spanish-German-Dutch-American tube made in China.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Bingo! You nailed it.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Has anyone flagged it as a fake to the Ebay minions ?


----------



## blackie13

As I promised to marty I will post here next time for questions!!!
I have a modded 2204
I have a bunch of tubes nos+CP such as Tungsram,RFT,EI,JJ,sylvania,TAD and mesa/sovtek,tungsol RI

I have tried a lot of combinations and i think I will settle to the tungsram for the V1,Tad chinese in V2 and long plate EI in the V3...
I have tried lots of tubes in V2 and I cannot find anything that amazes me there...I like the chinese 12ax7-c...

Any ideas what could be my nos alternative to the TAD?
Another tungsram maybe?

Thanks


----------



## mickeydg5

Blacque Jacque said:


> Has anyone flagged it as a fake to the Ebay minions ?


Actually it is a lot being sold and they all look like old glass except that one which of course is being used as the main picture. Its estate sale stuff. It is only being claimed as a 12AX7, which it is, and sold untested.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> Has anyone flagged it as a fake to the Ebay minions ?



This tube is part of a large lot that is being sold. Like many instances, the seller does not know anything about tubes and doesn't know he has a fake.

If he was just selling these tubes in quantity, I would flag it. I think any savvy tube buyer would know that the tube in question is not an Amperex.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Actually it is a lot being sold and they all look like old glass except that one which of course is being used as the main picture. Its estate sale stuff. It is only being claimed as a 12AX7, which it is, and sold untested.



Instead of using any of the other tubes for his main picture, the seller was clever enough to use the fake Amperex. Maybe he isn't as ignorant as I thought.


----------



## MartyStrat54

blackie13 said:


> As I promised to marty I will post here next time for questions!!!
> 
> Any ideas what could be my nos alternative to the TAD?
> Another tungsram maybe?
> 
> Thanks



Well it sounds like you rolled quite a few tubes in the V2 slot and nothing "wowed" you. Alan and I like the Tungsram for V1. If you can get a hold of a Sylvania or Raytheon Black Plate, you would probably like one of those.

Both of these tubes (used) are usually high gain and therefore they add a jolt to the V2 slot.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, a Tungsram kicks ass in V1 of a Marshall. 

Speaking of, I have a preamp tube set listed in the classifieds. I'll ship anywhere as long as you pay for it.


----------



## blackie13

edit
got it...
can you ship specific tubes?
such as tungsram,raytheon and sylvania?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well my tube craving got to me again. There was a UK EBAY auction for two NOS Mazda Silver Plates. The auction was to end at 3:30 AM Oklahoma time, so I just made a bid for $125USD. (The actual bidding was in pounds.) Imagine my surprise when I got up this morning and found out I had won them...barely (by 2 pounds). Shipping was a little steep, but it is for express air from the UK. I have a total of $146 for these two NOS Silver Plates.

I'm still sort of shocked that I won them. Most places sell them for $125 to $175 each.

The print on them is perfect on one and good on the other. 








> For sale is a matched pair of Mazda silver plate 12AX7A ECC83 valves.
> 
> Rare, premium grade 'A' version of these great quality, low noise valves.
> 
> Fully tested in my digital valve tester and measured as new:
> 
> 1.3 mA / 1.2 mA
> 
> 1.3 mA / 1.3 mA
> 
> A new ECC83 is expected to test between 1.1 mA - 1.2 mA in my valve tester.



I don't know if they are "true" NOS (the pins look a little bent), but they test as new and they look well above average.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I watched the price climb steadily on those, way to rich for my pocket.

Those "_Amperex_" Sylvanias turned up today, they are indeed NOS & in perfect condition. Gain is strong & the noise floor is pretty low too, but whether they really are 7025 spec or not I have no way of knowing.

Sound-wise, they're not bad, not as good as the best of my others, but not bad. A good solid bottle, but probably a candidate for a PI in my amps.

I picked up two more blue print Mazda's (RFT's) too. They are just like the others, immense gain & really colourful overdrive, my current favourite V1 in both my DSL50 & SL-X.

I'm on the lookout for a good vintage Mullard as it's one of the obvious gaps in my array of bottles at the moment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> I watched the price climb steadily on those, way to rich for my pocket.



Yes they are expensive, but the last time I posted an ad up here in the thread, the company was selling them for $175 each, but these were new in box.

The last one I bought from Hong Kong was $65 and it had free shipping. These cost me about the same, but the shipping was a little steep.

I'm not in a hurry to sell these right away, but when I do, I'm sure I can get $100 to $125 each for them as they are a matched pair and this is what the hifi guys are looking for.


----------



## RiverRatt

Blacque Jacque said:


> Those "_Amperex_" Sylvanias turned up today, they are indeed NOS & in perfect condition. Gain is strong & the noise floor is pretty low too, but whether they really are 7025 spec or not I have no way of knowing.
> 
> Sound-wise, they're not bad, not as good as the best of my others, but not bad. A good solid bottle, but probably a candidate for a PI in my amps.



I'd like to know how hot they test. I've come to like a really high gain Sylvania as a PI tube. I had one Sylvania that tested just under 150% of new! It seems to me that I get some smooth PI clipping at lower volume with those high-gainers. It's just more better.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, if you want to send those Mazda silver plates around for a tone test, I'll pick with my teeth if I have to do that to try one out.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

If I knew anyone with a valve tester I'd gladly get them checked & pass on the results. 

The RFT's are quoted as 2.3mA/V for one & 2.1mA/V for the other on an AVO tester & the seller says the "typical new" spec is 1.6mA/V so they are indeed up near your 150% figure. 

Using a completely uncalibrated Mk1 ear, the Sylvanias don't sound as hot as the RFT's, I'd take a wild guess at 110 - 120%. They are strong for sure, but the RFT's are noticeably stronger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Marty, if you want to send those Mazda silver plates around for a tone test, I'll pick with my teeth if I have to do that to try one out.



Funny you should say that. I was just thinking about sending out a "dream" pack of NOS tubes. 

...but what if someone says they like a JJ better than a Telefunken?

I had recently said I was going to put together a test pack of premium CP 12AX7's. Then I found out that three of them were the same tube.

Now I'm thinking it would be better to do an Amperex, Mullard, Telefunken, S and H, Mazda SP and then the Raytheon BP and Sylvania High Gain. Maybe something else to make it an even 8 tubes.

Of course to do this, each guy would have to pay for insurance as that would be an expensive set of tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> Those "_Amperex_" Sylvanias turned up today, they are indeed NOS & in perfect condition. Gain is strong & the noise floor is pretty low too, but whether they really are 7025 spec or not I have no way of knowing.



Can't tell on your picture, but are these listed as ECC83/12AX7A's? Or just 12AX7's?

When the 12AX7A came out, it incorporated some of the design features of the 7025, but it was not exactly a 7025. The original 7025's were long plates and at some point, most manufacturers went with the short plate. I think this was when the 12AX7A's started showing up.

When there was a transition from the 7025 to the 12AX7A, most manufacturer's including Sylvania would put 7025/ECC83/12AX7A on the tube.

The only reason this was done was that there was older tube equipment still in use that stated "7025" on the chassis and that is what the customer wanted to buy. This was basically a way to dupe a customer. This was done for a short period and then all the tubes were marked as 12AX7A's.

And another point I want to mention is this. I've only come across a few NOS long plate 7025's that were in the high gain range on my tester. Most true 7025's tested below or at medium gain.

Maybe Alan has some comments about this?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Both the boxes and tubes are explicitly marked 7025 only, there is no mention of 12AX7 or any other designation.

Plates are 17mm long.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I had to go back and look at the picture again. (I've looked at too many today.)

Those are probably 7025's because that is what they are labeled as.

Also, I can't see where they were made? Does it say USA on it?


----------



## Blacque Jacque

A couple of quick pics, clickable thumbs as before:


----------



## Blacque Jacque

The bottom of the box says "Country of origin as marked on tube".


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> The bottom of the box says "Country of origin as marked on tube".



That's not always true. 

Prime example. RCA ran out of tubes so they sold rebranded Mullards as RCA tubes with "Made In Gt. Britain" on the tubes. However, the box did not reflect this. Then RCA ran out of Mullards to sell, so they ended up selling Yugo Ei's, but it still said, "Gt. Britain" on the tubes and the box said, "country of origin as marked on box" and this was in fact untrue. 

RCA caught hell from the FTC over this. I think RCA did this because why would an American in 1977 want to buy a tube from a Soviet Block country?

Also a lot of European tube manufactures relabeled the crap out of East German RFT's, both power and preamp tubes.

The only thing I am concerned about is that your 7025's have the Amperex Globe logo and they are Sylvania's. This means the tubes were made in a later time period and it is possible that real 7025's were made before this time period. Amperex used the Globe logo starting in the mid 60's I believe. I can only guess that your 7025's were made in the mid to late 70's since they aren't even real Amperex's. Philips acquired Sylvania in the early 80's and by that time, they had sold the rights to the Amperex brand. The Globe logo was the last logo used by Amperex.

Amperex also contracted Matsushita to produce tubes for them (so did Raytheon).

Here's some mass confusion.

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-314916.html


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I thought the 7025 pretty much ceased to exist when the 12AX7A came out. I'm thinking a true 7025 would be something between a 5751 and a 12AX7. I still have my RiffRaff National brand Shuguang 5751's and they test at around 100% for a 12AX7. I think that most of the 12AX7 family merged in the 1960's and if you bought a 5751 or 7025 you were getting the same 12AX7A. Have you ever tested any of those green-print Philips 5751's? They sure do test a lot like a hot 12AX7A.

I just don't think that by the 1960's it would have been profitable to tool up and do a run of tubes that were within 10% of the mU of a 12AX7. Case in point: One of my best-sounding tubes is an old long-plate Amperex ECC83 that tests between 50 - 60% of new. My TV-7 says I should toss that tube, but it's mellowed like good whiskey in an oak barrel. I have it stored away right now. That tube could be sold as a 5751 or a 7025 and no one would know the difference, but I doubt if many people would appreciate or even hear the difference between it and the same tube at 100%.

God I sound like a cork-sniffer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-After I realized that the 7025's had the Globe logo, I knew they were made way past the era of a real 7025. Although the Amperex/Sylvania's say "7025," to me they look like regular Sylvania's. And I agree, real 7025's were not high gain tubes. They were more like a slightly hotter 5751. 

I sort of lost it and "had faith" that in the 70's Amperex was being honest with what was labeled on the tube. Ha-ha. I do find it odd that Amperex would even label a tube made in the 70's as a 7025. Was this some sort of marketing ploy? I don't think anyone cared about 7025's in 1976.

Like I said in my prior post, when the manufacturer's went to short plates, that IMO was the end of real 7025's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know. I've had Ampeg and Fender amps from around 1970 that still show V1 and sometimes V2 as a 7025.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I think the inevitable conclusion is that they are just plain old 12AX's.

It's possible that with proper testing on a calibrated machine they may meet the spec of a 7025, but in all honesty, for me it doesn't matter. They were a purchase to build my collection of variants, not for resale or anything else in particular.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I don't know. I've had Ampeg and Fender amps from around 1970 that still show V1 and sometimes V2 as a 7025.



Well maybe they were too lazy to change the silk screening.

I wish I could pinpoint the transitional period where the tubes were labeled as 7025/ECC83/12AX7A. Of course this really doesn't matter, because these tubes were not real 7025's, they were 12AX7A's.

And I've said this before, current production 7025's are just the manufacturer's way of making money off of the reputation of the real 7025's. CP 7025's are nothing special. They are just a 12AX7 that is labeled as a 7025.

I've had a lot of feedback where people have told me that some of the CP 7025's were some of the noisiest tubes they ever used.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Blacque Jacque said:


> I think the inevitable conclusion is that they are just plain old 12AX's.



Well that is a given. They are Sylvania 12AX7A's.

However, I love situations like this as this is what this thread is all about. I especially like other members such as Alan giving his opinion and feedback regarding tube lore.

I wish more of this would occur here. I love trying to figure out tube information.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

So what defines them as 12AX7*A*'s ?

Is it purely that all other types had ceased production by the time these were made ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

12AX7's can only be used in parallel filament circuits. They are usually long plates.

12AX7A's can be used in series or parallel filament circuits and usually have shorter plates.

The industry change to short plates was due to the fact that short plates tubes are less prone to microphonics and therefore have a quieter operation.


----------



## mickeydg5

Speaking of Tube Lore, their description of the 7025 and 12AX7A are the same; low hum and microphonics.
Did not the 7025 come out in 1958 and the 12AX7A about a year afterwards?


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well that is a given. They are Sylvania 12AX7A's.
> 
> However, I love situations like this as this is what this thread is all about. I especially like other members such as Alan giving his opinion and feedback regarding tube lore.
> 
> I wish more of this would occur here. I love trying to figure out tube information.



Here is a nice mystery valve. If you click on them then hit the magnifying glass you will get some nice large pictures. Notice the silver corner supports, and the copper grid posts. Love that it's a GE valve and that the box has made in USA over printed with made in Italy.


----------



## RiverRatt

It looks like there's a 188-4 printed on the right side of the tube. 188 is the EIA code for GE and IIRC the 4 means it was made in Owensboro, KY. I've never seen a tube with silver tabs on the plates like that.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is what I saw too, silver plate tabs. ???


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

well I think it maybe one of these, but if ti is it really muddies the waters as it's a German made valve from Lorenz. Mine has the same kind of flux on the pins inside the envelope, as to why it has GE markings and claims to be made in Italy 

Lorenz ECC83 1960s Tall Plate Silver Supports 1 - Stuttgart Germany


----------



## RiverRatt

Does it have the tube number etched into the glass near the top, with a few dots etched below that? The font should be like a military stencil.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Speaking of Tube Lore, their description of the 7025 and 12AX7A are the same; low hum and microphonics.
> Did not the 7025 come out in 1958 and the 12AX7A about a year afterwards?



I think you are correct about 1958 being the year of introduction for the 7025.

Here is an April 1959 RCA datasheet for the 7025.

http://www.drtube.com/datasheets/7025-rca1959.pdf

Funny thing is they list the amplification factor as 100. I have only had a small amount of long plate 7025's test as high gain. I had a lot of NIB 7025's test as medium gain.

The 12AX7 was available in 1947. There were other variants made in the mid 50's that were supposedly better than a 12AX7 and made before the 7025 was introduced. Right off the top of my head is the 12AD7, 12DF7 and 12DT7.

The 12AX7A was first mentioned in the 1961 RCA Manual (RC-21).


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like these are made by Fivre of Italy.











Vintage Amps Bulletin Board &bull; View topic - 12ax7 RCA made in italy. Italy you say?

Notice that the PN logo is the same on both the GE and the RCA.

I think it is entirely plausible to believe that Fivre would print "188-4" on the tubes if they were making them for GE. Notice the "dots" are not on the Italian GE's. 

Again, we have just been discussing what was going on in the last few years of NOS tube production. I don't find this strange at all since the European tube market ran about 8 years longer than the US market. Transistorized electronics spread quicker in the US then in other parts of the world.


----------



## mickeydg5

A 7025 has an amplification factor of 100, just as a 12AX7. The amplification factor is an innate dynamic characteristic of a tube. It is part of its design.

Gain is not measured by a tube tester. Gain is however relative to a tubes amplification factor (u), transconductance (Gm) and plate resistance.

So a tube with less amplification factor will always exhibit less gain on average in the same circuit.

So guys, I hope this is clear, a 5751 and 12AX7 curves coincide at a specific target which most tester manufacturers take advantage of in their designs for test purposes. But a 12AX7 testing at 110% will always be capable of more gain than a 5751 testing at 110% because of the characteristics especially the amplification factor.

There can be overlap. A weaker 12AX7 may operate as or similar to a stronger 5751 under the right conditions.

I hope this is making sense.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know that gain is not measured on a tube tester. However, after testing hundreds of tubes and listening to many of them, tubes that test above 30 on my B and K are high gain and those that test around 25 are medium gain. The test scores can be used to get a good idea of what the gain capability is. I think this goes hand in hand.



> So guys, I hope this is clear, a 5751 and 12AX7 curves coincide at a specific target which most tester manufacturers take advantage of in their designs for test purposes. But a 12AX7 testing at 110% will always be capable of more gain than a 5751 testing at 110% because of the characteristics especially the amplification factor.



Now this is interesting, but it makes sense. My B and K tests the 5751 and the 12AX7 exactly the same, same settings on the tester. I just assumed that if I had a 5751 that tested in the 40's, it would have a higher amplification factor since the tester settings were the same as a 12AX7. 

So what you are saying is the transconductance can be higher on a 5751, even higher than that of a 12AX7, but the gain factor is still lower than a 12AX7.

Is that the point you are stating?

Will a 5751 that tests at 42-42 be of lower gain than a 12AX7 that tests at 32-32?


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I know that gain is not measured on a tube tester. However, after testing hundreds of tubes and listening to many of them, tubes that test above 30 on my B and K are high gain and those that test around 25 are medium gain. The test scores can be used to get a good idea of what the gain capability is. I think this goes hand in hand.
> Yes. A higher mho test score results in higher gain capability, per tube type.
> 
> 
> Now this is interesting, but it makes sense. My B and K tests the 5751 and the 12AX7 exactly the same, same settings on the tester. I just assumed that if I had a 5751 that tested in the 40's, it would have a higher amplification factor since the tester settings were the same as a 12AX7.
> When comparing a true 5751 to a 12AX7>
> No, the amplification factor does not change (or maybe slightly); the Gm and plate resistance fluctuate. The tester just happens to have the same settings for both tubes but the tube's characteristics are quite different, similar but different.
> 
> 
> So what you are saying is the transconductance can be higher on a 5751, even higher than that of a 12AX7, but the gain factor is still lower than a 12AX7.
> Exactly.
> 
> Is that the point you are stating?
> Yes.
> 
> Will a 5751 that tests at 42-42 be of lower gain than a 12AX7 that tests at 32-32?
> A new tube, per data specifications, on that tester should read about 34.
> It is a little more complicated than that because circuit design has to be figured but the just of it would indicate that. A 5751 scoring that much higher than the 12AX7 will exibit similar results.


 
Comments add within your post.


----------



## RiverRatt

I got a GE 5-Star 5751 in the mail today. It came from Hong Kong - I wasn't expecting to see it for another week or two. No pics yet - it's late.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Still messing with Hong Kong...hey?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I got a GE 5-Star 5751 in the mail today. It came from Hong Kong - I wasn't expecting to see it for another week or two. No pics yet - it's late.



Tease.


----------



## RiverRatt

It was an easy and fast transaction. I don't have a problem with buying from those guys but I don't ship there.

Joe, it's pretty much like all the others I posted a page or two back. The print isn't great but you can make out the stars and the remains of the GE logo. What matters is that etched "5751" at the top of the tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was it a better deal than what you could have gotten from a US seller?


----------



## RiverRatt

It was the best deal I could find at the time. It was an impulse buy. I have way too much time on my hands and TV isn't that entertaining to me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know this. Viewing EBAY costs me money.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just so you know, the tube threads got moved to the WORKBENCH.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I know this. Viewing EBAY costs me money.



If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate you destiny, consume you it will, as it did to Obi-Wan's apprentice.


----------



## mickeydg5

Wait, is buying tubes a bad thing?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Only if it involves Alan sending a Mullard MC to Hong Kong.


----------



## RiverRatt

Please don't go there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's the best Mullard I've ever owned. Greedy bastard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Mazda's got here today. Strong and matched.  

The seller does have another pair for sale, but one is rebranded and they are not as close of a match. 

And the current bid is higher than what I paid for mine.


----------



## RiverRatt

I was cleaning up some clutter and found a silver plate Ei. According to the date code, it's a 1962. Has anyone ever puzzled out these oddities? I wonder if by that time they had plundered Telefunken and these might be Tele plates? The plates are darker than the Marshall-era Ei ECC83's and it has the older, more stylized Ei logo. Anyone well-versed on Ei? It's kinda cool if the parts were on their way to being an 803S.


----------



## mickeydg5

What do you mean by silver plates that were darker than?
I have seen silver plate EI's but did not know they were made that far back.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had some Ei silver plates that came stock in my DSL50 head. They were really bright and shiny, like zinc or similar. With this tube, the plate is more like brushed stainless steel in appearance.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I posted this yesterday, but must have not hit the reply.

Ei had some whacky date codes that are very confusing. You might think they are 1962, but in fact they could be made much later.

Silver Plate Ei's were made later in production. I don't think they made them in 1962. I always thought they were made in the early 80's until they ceased production.



> Eis come in two styles: gray and silver plates. The gray plates were produced earlier and are more popular. However, many people also like the silver plates. You want to try and find what are called 'Pre-War' Eis. These were produced at the Nis factory prior to the conflict in Yugoslavia in the 1990's and are considered superior. Ei's from the 1970's can fetch high prices. These are usually rebranded tubes that don't always say Ei on the logo. However, Eis from the 80's-early 90's are fine tubes as well.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

MartyStrat54 said:


> I posted this yesterday, but must have not hit the reply.
> 
> Ei had some whacky date codes that are very confusing. You might think they are 1962, but in fact they could be made much later.
> 
> Silver Plate Ei's were made later in production. I don't think they made them in 1962. I always thought they were made in the early 80's until they ceased production.



I have some Ei's that have dual getter support, do you think these are earlier ones? I'll try and dig out a picture.


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-Take a look at what this guy is selling Matsushita 12AX7's for. Didn't I just sell you a slant getter for $20 that was in perfect shape? I believe it was NOS.

Alan-Look at his price on Hitachi.

12AX7 Tube Types in Stock


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> And the current bid is higher than what I paid for mine.



Tell me about it. I did have a little punt, but it's not to be. Which is just as well, as I'm not sure how I'd pay for them...


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are very, very nice in V1. They have just the sweetest overdriven sound.



> Super rare French Military, made by British Thomson-Houston, that made some of the finest triodes in Europe, and one of the oldest tube companies in the world. Mazda was part of the Thorn AEI group in England who made Brimar and Ediswan.
> 
> Chrome plates are vintage 1959-1963, and were very popular in the recording industry in Europe. Heralded as the best by Mesa Engineering for the Tigris and Baron. More lively on top than the earlier production grey plate. Very neutral and clean, with excellent extension on top. This is not a warm sounding tube, so if that's what you're looking for, check out the Mullards.


----------



## damienbeale

What do you guys know about frame grid ecc's?

I used to be able to spot the sh!t from shinola with these, but I've never had any to compare to, and have forgotton what I'm looking for.

I'm watching these closely, but should I?

Matched Pair of Mazda ECC83 / Tesla E83CC ECC803S Frame Grid / Gold Pin Tubes | eBay


What I'm asking is Tesla? or JJ?


----------



## damienbeale

And I laughed at these...
How much?
SIEMENS E83CC TUBES OLD STOCK RÖHRE VALVES AMPS | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

There are five variations of the Mazda Silver Plate made between 1959-1963.

Here are three of them.






Here are the other two.









The top picture of the tube in the middle has double posts and a wide triple mica arrangement. The picture on the bottom, right side has the same plate design with a single post and double mica. I believe the double post was the military version. I don't have a clue about what years these different variations were made, or if they were all made at the same location.


----------



## MartyStrat54

damienbeale said:


> What do you guys know about frame grid ecc's?
> 
> I used to be able to spot the sh!t from shinola with these, but I've never had any to compare to, and have forgotton what I'm looking for.
> 
> I'm watching these closely, but should I?
> 
> Matched Pair of Mazda ECC83 / Tesla E83CC ECC803S Frame Grid / Gold Pin Tubes | eBay
> 
> 
> *What I'm asking is Tesla? or JJ?*



Those are genuine Tesla's. Keep watching that auction Damien. If the prices stay low it is a good deal. They fetch around $80 USD each for NIB.

(I see that is the same seller I got the Mazda's from.)


----------



## RiverRatt

Here are a couple of crappy iPhone pics, one with flash and one without. The factory and date codes are very small and sloppy, like the stamp had too much ink, and it's a silvery color. Almost all the post-war Ei tubes I've seen have had a large gold factory date code and no type code. Mine has a type code but it matches nothing in the Philips factory code book.


----------



## damienbeale

I even looked at these (with a view to sell them on), and wondered if I could knock the price down to less than £1K.
But then the customs charges would probably make me have to sell the house...
TESLA E83CC Tubes 30 pcs | eBay


----------



## 61rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Those are genuine Tesla's. Keep watching that auction Damien. If the prices stay low it is a good deal. They fetch around $80 USD each for NIB.
> 
> (I see that is the same seller I got the Mazda's from.)
> 
> This is the exact tube I pulled from my '71 Superlead, except it was labeled Mazda Valve (not to be confused with the lettering on the Silver Plates). There is a seller from the states that lists these, I think out of Washington....his are military grade with the crossed swords. About $89.99 a piece. One seller claims these are made by Tesla on Telefunkin equipment and are an exact replica of the Telefunkin ECC803S...which as we all know can go for big bucks....I use this tube in whatever amp I am using at the time in V1....very nice, 3 dimensional, nice ring on open chords....I need to get a couple of more before the price goes higher or they start drying up.....but the same exact tube.....gold pins, triple mica, dual supports, short smooth plates....Very Nice sound reproduction...


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> JOE-Take a look at what this guy is selling Matsushita 12AX7's for. Didn't I just sell you a slant getter for $20 that was in perfect shape? I believe it was NOS.
> 
> Alan-Look at his price on Hitachi.
> 
> 12AX7 Tube Types in Stock



Damn man! This seller's been huffing the inside of some of dem preamp tubes...


----------



## Blacque Jacque

A quick tube id request, surely this is a Shuguang or JJ not a Tele ?






Telefunken ECC803S / 12AX7 pre-amp valve | eBay


----------



## damienbeale

Can't see properly but

Plates are too short and glass envelope is either too short or too thick.
Most definitely NOT telefunken. Box might be worth 99p though...

Edit: Too thick. That is a hugely fat tube, looking at the pins.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

I was going by the spaced top mica, red print & what appears to be those trademark silver clips on the plates.


----------



## MartyStrat54

It's a Shuguang. That seller should be shot.

Of course, if it was a real Tele 803, the starting price wouldn't be 99p.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is the message that I sent to the seller.



> I don't know how long you have been selling tubes, but your ECC803 listing is wrong. Anyone with a little tube knowledge will be able to see that the tube you are selling is a cheap Chinese Shuguang. What this will end up doing is causing you to loose your reputation as a tube seller.
> 
> You should close this auction and relist the tube as a Shuguang.



I wish I had the option to flag the listing.


----------



## solarburn

EBay's den of thieves workn the net.


----------



## MartyStrat54

He replied back. Problem solved! 



> Thank you for the info - I am not a tube seller - as the auction page states I have inherited these valves from a studio clear out - that tube was in that box so I assumed it must be the right tube? The auction was for 99p, so I guess it was obvious that I am not trying to sell an item to mislead anyone. I have ended the auction because of the unintended error on my part.



If you look at this seller's other items, he is selling a lot of tubes. Maybe he just came across these at the same location. Whatever, always remember that EBAY listings can be misleading.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well he pulled the auction. 
That is why it is always good to ask questions to see how the seller responds. I think that the seller most likely has no idea what a TFK ECC803S is or is worth.


----------



## solarburn

I don't do evilbay ...what's 99p translate too?


----------



## MartyStrat54

$1.55


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said, he is selling quite a few tubes. He probably doesn't know anything about the prices for used tubes as most of his listings are starting at 99p.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> $1.55



Yeah I think he didn't Know. Well now he will ponder on tubes a bit...lol


----------



## Night Train

Hello,

I have a question about Telefunken ECC83 preamp tubes. If the test values on the tubes are good, what are the odds that they'll sound good on a Marshall?

There is a quad for sale on ebay: Quad Telefunken ECC83 12 AX 7 Smooth Plate Tested Very Good ECC 83 2 | eBay Would that be a good deal? Are the test results really good on those four?

Thank you mates!


----------



## damienbeale

Those test specs mean nothing without knowing what a new tube measures as, and I'm not convinced the specs are all that high either, considering where good starts, and "new" starts at 110 on that specific tester.

I think those tubes are pretty overpriced anyways. I'm certain Marty above has plenty of strong Tele's at a better price than that. Give him a holler.


----------



## Les Moore

Just won these NOS 12AX7´s on auction. What do you think?


----------



## paul-e-mann

Hey guys, I just went to replace my 2204 preamp tubes and V2 and V3 are too tight to fit the new tubes! It looks like those sockets are different than V1 which took a Tungsol with no problem. Whats in there are the original GE ecc83 tubes that probably came with the amp, which are a bit thinner than anything else I have. So theres different size 12AX7 tubes??? This is really bugging me out.


----------



## damienbeale

Les Moore said:


> Just won these NOS 12AX7´s on auction. What do you think?



I think you've taken some awfully good in focus picture of cocktail sticks and a tube box. The tubes however...
Nope, can't see a thing.


----------



## damienbeale

pedecamp said:


> Hey guys, I just went to replace my 2204 preamp tubes and V2 and V3 are too tight to fit the new tubes! It looks like those sockets are different than V1 which took a Tungsol with no problem. Whats in there are the original GE ecc83 tubes that probably came with the amp, which are a bit thinner than anything else I have. So theres different size 12AX7 tubes??? This is really bugging me out.



Modern Chinese tubes and some of the New Sensor tubes have massively fat glass envelopes. Most vintage tubes should be pretty much a standard size.


----------



## Micky

Les Moore said:


> Just won these NOS 12AX7´s on auction. What do you think?



I think you need a camera with macro mode...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Les Moore said:


> Just won these NOS 12AX7´s on auction. What do you think?



The Mullard is not going to be a real Mullard as it says, "foreign" on the tube. If it has smooth plates, it is probably an Ei.

You need to provide clear pictures for us to determine what you have.


----------



## MartyStrat54

pedecamp said:


> Hey guys, I just went to replace my 2204 preamp tubes and V2 and V3 are too tight to fit the new tubes! It looks like those sockets are different than V1 which took a Tungsol with no problem. Whats in there are the original GE ecc83 tubes that probably came with the amp, which are a bit thinner than anything else I have. So theres different size 12AX7 tubes??? This is really bugging me out.



Are you talking about the tube pins fitting in the socket, or the tubes fitting into the shield base?

CP tubes are all over the place in regards to pin diameter. I've gotten CP preamp tubes where the pins were so thin they didn't make good contact and I've gotten CP preamp tubes where the pins were too fat and very difficult to fit in an amp.

Now if you are talking about glass size, yes, there are some CP tubes that are fat and will not work in a variety of amps.


----------



## paul-e-mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Are you talking about the tube pins fitting in the socket, or the tubes fitting into the shield base?
> 
> CP tubes are all over the place in regards to pin diameter. I've gotten CP preamp tubes where the pins were so thin they didn't make good contact and I've gotten CP preamp tubes where the pins were too fat and very difficult to fit in an amp.
> 
> Now if you are talking about glass size, yes, there are some CP tubes that are fat and will not work in a variety of amps.



CP tubes are too fat to fit in the base.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think it sucks that the CP tube manufacturer's do not adhere to the design specifications of the 12AX7. Some tube sellers will state that a certain tube will not fit in some applications, but most do not.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Yeah its like an EL84 socket. I'm gonna end up having to replace those sockets with bigger ones if I wanna ever role tubes in that amp.


----------



## Les Moore

MartyStrat54 said:


> The Mullard is not going to be a real Mullard as it says, "foreign" on the tube. If it has smooth plates, it is probably an Ei.
> 
> You need to provide clear pictures for us to determine what you have.



I´ll do that as soon as I get them. Thanks Marty.


----------



## armandin

Marty, you said

_*I have all GE 12Ax7's (1964 date codes) in my DSL401 with Canadian made RCA Black Plate EL84's. What a monster! Total difference in tonal qualities versus the stock OE tubes. *_

I have a DSL 401 (crap), jjs (gold pin in V1) and a vintage 30 have made it bearable, but I would love to duplicate your set up, has it cured the harsh, fizzy top end?

UK based, any tips on sourcing?

Armand


----------



## damienbeale

Sourcing them in the UK is not likely to happen I'm afraid. Not at reasonable prices. For the US prices, and shipping costs it is still well worthwhile doing it. 
I bought a few mint 1959 GE ax7's from Terry Kilgore, and he's still got a load left, since he found the motherload.


----------



## MartyStrat54

ARMAND-I kept the EL84's, but I ended up going with a 1959 Amperex Bugle Boy in V1, a Raytheon Black Plate in V2, A GE JAN 12AX7WA in V3 and a Sylvania Gray Plate in V4. My speaker is an Eminence Red Fang alnico.

The main thing is that most current production tubes are not as quiet as a vintage tube. This noise gets amplified and can get nasty if you are using a lot of gain. Switching over to some good USA/European tubes in V1 and V2 will make the biggest impact.

There is nothing special about a gold pin JJ in V1. Basically it is a marketing gimmick.

I don't know anyone personally that sells tubes in the UK. Your best bet is EBAY. You can always post an EBAY link here to get our opinions on any tubes you are interested in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

When I said EBAY, I meant USA EBAY.


----------



## damienbeale

I don't know any individual sellers either, and most of the businesses that do have NOS over here are pretty shady (just my opinion, of course), and the prices are ridiculous.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a guy give me a 12AX7. It's an Ei tube with a blue PM EURO logo. I've seen a few just with the PM logo and were Shuguangs. I can't remember who sold PM tubes. It was one of the big web stores. I think PM themselves went out of business.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

A quick Mullard question; A while back I stumbled across a webpage detailing the different Mullard construction variants & when they were introduced / superseded, I61, I63 etc. but I can't find the damn thing now. 

Do any of you guys know the page by any chance or have a link to similar info ?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Was it this?

Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Yes it was, thanks Marty.

This means the Blackburn made Mullard I received yesterday is an I61 dated B1G1 & the other one I have coming is an I63 dated B5A1.

We'll see what they sound like tonight hopefully.


----------



## Georgiatec

armandin said:


> Marty, you said
> 
> _*I have all GE 12Ax7's (1964 date codes) in my DSL401 with Canadian made RCA Black Plate EL84's. What a monster! Total difference in tonal qualities versus the stock OE tubes. *_
> 
> I have a DSL 401 (crap), jjs (gold pin in V1) and a vintage 30 have made it bearable, but I would love to duplicate your set up, has it cured the harsh, fizzy top end?
> 
> UK based, any tips on sourcing?
> 
> Armand



Best speaker in that amp is a G12 65. For me a V30 seems to bring out the inherent mid nasally tone of the EL84's. A G12 65 smooths the amp out beautifully.....that and a NOS Mullard 12AT7 in the PI.


----------



## damienbeale

Georgiatec said:


> Best speaker in that amp is a G12 65. For me a V30 seems to bring out the inherent mid nasally tone of the EL84's. A G12 65 smooths the amp out beautifully.....that and a NOS Mullard 12AT7 in the PI.


Blackplate Sylvania EL84's can sure help too.


----------



## Georgiatec

damienbeale said:


> Blackplate Sylvania EL84's can sure help too.



NOS Mazda RFT's in mine


----------



## MartyStrat54

damienbeale said:


> Blackplate Sylvania EL84's can sure help too.



Love these...one of the best for the price.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have had some Amperex from Heerlen and Sittard that sounded really sweet.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan I sent you a PM.


----------



## RiverRatt

PM answered.

Bill, didn't I sell you a couple of those Sittard EL84's?


----------



## damienbeale

Georgiatec said:


> NOS Mazda RFT's in mine


Probably better tubes too, but the Syl's are great for shaving off a little harshness.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> PM answered.
> 
> Bill, didn't I sell you a couple of those Sittard EL84's?



Yeah Bill bought those. I sampled them before he took them off your hands. Nice EL84's too.


----------



## solarburn

The RFT 84's I have are good for shaving off fizz and warming the tone up...if you ever get out of preamp gain.LOL

I found there warmth and fatness to smooth my OR15 out and neuter its aggressive nature. Sounded good in my Monza and NT but the Orange revolted at the taming. It gets fat already so it became redundant. Shaving the fuzz off the navel took its grind away.


----------



## Georgiatec

pedecamp said:


> Yeah its like an EL84 socket. I'm gonna end up having to replace those sockets with bigger ones if I wanna ever role tubes in that amp.



Surely a 12AX7 type socket and EL84 socket are the same...they have the same part code on them in my DSL401. I'm sure it will be the tubes Ped. Try just squeezing the pins to centre ever so slightly. The CP Mullards were the same. They were tight but they went in with a little adjustment. 'Course when it comes to shifting them again


----------



## damienbeale

Chinese pre's are real fat nowadays though, Tony. Mind you, Sovtek EL84's can't be far off...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Georgiatec said:


> Surely a 12AX7 type socket and EL84 socket are the same.



Tony I think I answered this already. It isn't a pin problem. The tubes are too fat to fit inside of the base (that holds the metal shield).


----------



## johnfv

Getting started with the next round of TAD tube auditions so rolling V1 in my 2204 HW. I did make a serious mistake. I started by listening to what I had already in the amp: the "Holy Grail" - one of the vintage Mullards that I bought from Martimus Maximus. I think anything CP is gonna sound like a paper cup compared to the Holy Grail


----------



## Landshark

What do you guus think of using 12ay7 tubes to tame the gain of an amp?


----------



## johnfv

Landshark said:


> What do you guus think of using 12ay7 tubes to tame the gain of an amp?


I've tried the EH 12AY7 in a couple amps and was not impressed. It tames the gain a bit but the tone is lacking. Maybe a nice vintage tube would be an entirely different story. Want to buy a barely used EH 12AY7?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> What do you guus think of using 12ay7 tubes to tame the gain of an amp?



What amp? It would probably be more noticeable in a single channel amp.

More to gain than just the tubes, the preamp circuit has to be considered.


----------



## Landshark

johnfv said:


> I've tried the EH 12AY7 in a couple amps and was not impressed. It tames the gain a bit but the tone is lacking. Maybe a nice vintage tube would be an entirely different story. Want to buy a barely used EH 12AY7?


 
Well what I'm looking for is a medium gain tube for my Jet City JCA 20h (it has quite a bit of gain on tap) to try and bring that gain level down so as not to saturate the preamp as quickly. That being said would you recommend the tube you have? I basically want to be able to turn the gain pot up a little higher and get the preamp cooking a little later on that gain pot. Is it possible without losing tone?


----------



## johnfv

I own the JCA20H so know what you are talking about. What guitar(s) are you using? I found that a 12AU7 in the PI slot gave me more headroom. It may simply be that less gain there lets me open up the preamp a bit more as you suggest. There's also a mod available to partially bypass the tone stack. If you are playing bright guitars (Fender) the mod may make things too bright.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had a JCA20H at the same time I had my DSL50, and they sounded very similar. I couldn't get cleans from the JC, and I'm not a fan of using 12AY7's and 12AT7's in place of a 12AX7. A NOS 5751 might help, but you're still trying to make the amp into something it's not. A Telefunken smooth plate 12AX7 is what I'd recommend. It's got gain, but not a lot of dirt.

Now I've noticed that they have a "vintage" JCA20 head now that's supposed to be voiced more like an early Marshall. I really want to try one of those.


----------



## Landshark

I've only got the Les Paul Studio right now, stock with the 490r in the neck and 498 in the bridge. I don't need to halve the gain or anything, just looking to bring it down. I use the gain around 4 and the master on 5-6, and if I could push the gain up a little higher to bring in a little more girth... that's all I'm looking for.


----------



## Landshark

RiverRatt said:


> Now I've noticed that they have a "vintage" JCA20 head now that's supposed to be voiced more like an early Marshall. I really want to try one of those.



I've played one and with the V30 cab, they sound really good. Super Crunchy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Landshark said:


> I don't need to halve the gain or anything, just looking to bring it down.



If you use a 12AY7 you will be reducing the gain by more than half.


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you use a 12AY7 you will be reducing the gain by more than half.



Oh... well maybe not that then... hmm...


----------



## Landshark

johnfv said:


> I own the JCA20H so know what you are talking about. What guitar(s) are you using? I found that a 12AU7 in the PI slot gave me more headroom. It may simply be that less gain there lets me open up the preamp a bit more as you suggest. There's also a mod available to partially bypass the tone stack. If you are playing bright guitars (Fender) the mod may make things too bright.



I know it'll sound like I'm hammering away at this gain knob thing, but how did using a 12au7 in the PI affect your use of the gain knob? Or did it just give you headroom? I suppose if I can't find the answer in the preamp section I could try with the output section or mods...


----------



## johnfv

I definitely want would like to try the JCA20HV. I like the original very much but a little less gain and a little warmer would be great. I tried a few things in V1 on mine but found the tone lost too much if I did anything too drastic. I've had better luck changing V2 and the PI. Mine currently has V1: 5751 V2: 12AY7 V3: 12AU7. I expect someone will chime in here soon to say that a lower gain PI is a bad idea, but that's the one that made the biggest difference for me. I sometimes run a 12AT7 in my 1959T Marshall PI also. YMMV...


----------



## johnfv

Landshark said:


> ...but how did using a 12au7 in the PI affect your use of the gain knob...


What stops you from running the gain higher now? Too much volume or just too much gain? It's mostly about headroom for me but the V2 and PI change does seem to lower the overall gain and volume of the amp so I can run both gain and master higher. A 12AU7 is pretty drastic, I did it because I had a NOS one (early '70s NOS that is) in my junk drawer. I tried it and liked it.

FWIW, the 5751 I have in V1 doesn't seem to lower the gain much, I use it because it has a little darker tone. That's the tricky thing about 5751, some of them seem to have just as much gain as a typical 12AX7.


----------



## Landshark

johnfv said:


> What stops you from running the gain higher now? Too much volume or just too much gain? It's mostly about headroom for me but the V2 and PI change does seem to lower the overall gain and volume of the amp so I can run both gain and master higher. A 12AU7 is pretty drastic, I did it because I had a NOS one (early '70s NOS that is) in my junk drawer. I tried it and liked it.



Needing a cleanish tone for my band. Just on the edge of breakup, if I pick lightly enough it stays clean, if I pick hard it gets a little dirty. I have an SD-1 for leads.


----------



## johnfv

Landshark said:


> Needing a cleanish tone for my band, just on the edge of breakup, if I pick lightly enough it stays clean, if I pick hard it gets a little dirty. I have an SD-1 for leads.


The tube changes I mentioned improved mine. Also, try a treble bleed on the guitar, I also like a little compression to get the cleanish when I need it.


----------



## Landshark

Cool. I did.a little research into the 12at7 and see how that could affect the sound. I may just try some 12ax7wa/7025 if I can find one cheap.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Georgiatec said:


> Surely a 12AX7 type socket and EL84 socket are the same...they have the same part code on them in my DSL401. I'm sure it will be the tubes Ped. Try just squeezing the pins to centre ever so slightly. The CP Mullards were the same. They were tight but they went in with a little adjustment. 'Course when it comes to shifting them again



You would think to be the same but not in my case. You can visually see the actual socket is smaller, I put an EL84 in easily just for reference fit but no CP 12AX7's will go in. As Marty said, the tubes are too tubby.


----------



## RiverRatt

johnfv said:


> I expect someone will chime in here soon to say that a lower gain PI is a bad idea, but that's the one that made the biggest difference for me. I sometimes run a 12AT7 in my 1959T Marshall PI also. YMMV...



Now who would do a thing like that? 

I wasn't saying you shouldn't, just that I tried all that and found it lacking something in each case. I think the 12AT7 as a phase inverter makes a Marshall sound more like a cranked amp at a lower volume, but with my amp it seemed to lose the dynamics. Like most everything, it's a matter of personal preference. If it's working for you, that's fine.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. Whatever floats your boat.

I will say that if an amp comes from the factory with a 12AX7 PI tube and you replace it with a 12AT7, the 12AX7 circuit is not the optimum for the 12AT7. Fender amps with 12AT7 PI's have a PI circuit designed around that tube.


----------



## wakjob

Winged C 12ax7's? Anyone seen these yet?

12AX7SED, SED/Winged-C | www.boiaudioworks.com


----------



## MartyStrat54

If you notice, the ad says, "sold out."

Winged C stopped making these tubes at least two years ago, maybe more.

They weren't that great and if you read the description, it will be noisy in an amp with AC heaters.

Winged C makes good power tubes, but this 12AX7 isn't anything special at all. There is a lot better CP preamp tubes out there.


----------



## Georgiatec

The NOS Mullard 12AT7's I'm running in the PI slots of both my DSL's do work pretty well. There is less gain, but not by much. The tone is flattened slightly but just give the amp a little more treble (401) or presence (DSL100) and it wakes up nicely, and so sssmmooooth. I don't know if the reverb circuit has anything to do with the PI?, but it sounded a lot better with the AT. Mind you the glass in 1-3 is by no means ordinary. The DSL100 has Mazda branded Mullards in 1 - 3 and the 401 Dutch Mules in 1 & 2 and a Sylvania grey plate in 3


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you notice, the ad says, "sold out."
> 
> Winged C stopped making these tubes at least two years ago, maybe more.
> 
> They weren't that great and if you read the description, it will be noisy in an amp with AC heaters.
> 
> Winged C makes good power tubes, but this 12AX7 isn't anything special at all. There is a lot better CP preamp tubes out there.



I had a Svetlana preamp tube in my DSL when I got it. I researched them and the St. Petersburg facility never had the tooling to make a 12AX7. The one I had bore a strong resemblance to the classic Sovtek 12AX7WA tone turd. I'd be really surprised if they made one under the =C= logo either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well if you look at the Winged C EF86 it sure does look like a relabeled military tube.

Now that you mention the part where Svetlana didn't have the tooling for a 12AX7, this jogged my memory and I recall this.

Regardless of who, when or where it was made, it was a failure.


----------



## wakjob

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you notice, the ad says, "sold out."
> 
> Winged C stopped making these tubes at least two years ago, maybe more.
> 
> They weren't that great and if you read the description, it will be noisy in an amp with AC heaters.
> 
> Winged C makes good power tubes, but this 12AX7 isn't anything special at all. There is a lot better CP preamp tubes out there.



Thanks for the heads-up Marty!


----------



## Landshark

So I did some google-ing and found that there are quite a few people that use 12au7 tubes in the PI of the JCA20 to give more headroom. With that in mind I bought a Sylvania off the bay to try out. If its not what I'm looking for, I found a few mods I may try.


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow! Anybody else noticed that GeenGirl has ditched her weird Hickok tester for a TV-7? NOW she's posting scores I can understand!


----------



## MartyStrat54

...but her prices are still ridiculous.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, this guy has been selling these tubes for over two years now. It is without a doubt some of the biggest BS I've ever heard. I can also see why he still has some to sell. The price is ridiculous. I wonder how many suckers have bought from him?

Balanced Tube 12AX7 ECC83 Best I've Heard No Kidding for Preamp Amp Mic Etc | eBay


----------



## RiverRatt

I wouldn't say Lori's prices are ridiculous, but she is always on the high side of retail. You can't make money buying and selling from her.

LOL about the Sovtek 12AX7LPS guy! I remember being a newb here and even then I thought he was selling more snake oil than anything else.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah this is the second time I posted his ad here. Was it longer than 2 years ago?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that goes waaaaay back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Good grief. I was a young man when I started posting on this forum.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Good grief. I was a young man when I started posting on this forum.


I still had hair.

Not really


----------



## MartyStrat54

My girlfriends still had their teeth back then.


----------



## solarburn

I could break wind instead puff dust back then...


----------



## johnfv

It was SO long ago... current production tubes were amazing back then


----------



## MartyStrat54

JOE-You have seven months on me. You truly are a senior member with a senior member. (I hope you get my joke?)


----------



## MartyStrat54

johnfv said:


> It was SO long ago... current production tubes were amazing back then



No, no. It was so long ago that current production tubes were considered as NOS!


----------



## brp

Hey Alan, clear out your PM box, couldn't send you a PM.

I'll ask here:

Do you know the year of those Sittard Holland EL84 I bought off you awhile back?
I'm doing a demo of the TAD EL84 for Marty and wanted to give the details of what I'm A/B-ing them against.
If you're not sure, even a guesstimate of the approximate era would help just to give some detail of what I'm playing the TADs against.
Please let me know if you can.
Thanks.

Not super important obviously but I like to be thorough when I can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Get out a magnifying glass. There should be some codes near the bottom.

According to the info on this link, they were made from 1959 and earlier.

Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes


----------



## brp

Cool link, thanks.

One of them has a code under where the label is, so near the bottom, the other doesn't have anything in that same spot.
The one that has something there says 6 characters, 3 and then 3 below them: "(1st character unreadable) X 3" 2nd line under that says "X9D"

On the other side of the tubes they both have: 
"942
7M"

They are Motorola branded "Golden" "Premium Quality" labelled.
They have the 3 slots along the sides of the plates and D getter.
According to your link it looks like they're between '57 & '59.
Agreed?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes. It looks like they were made in 1959. Those are quite rare.






The last matched quad of Amperex EL84's that I had were labeled Hewlitt Packard and they were made in 1960 at Herleen.


----------



## RiverRatt

I thought all those had date codes. The X9D is the factory date code. The 9 is the year code for 1959. In 1960 the Philips companies added a fourth digit which was the week of production. So, if your tube only has a 3-digit code, it was made before 1960. There are exceptions. I remember those being some nice, smooth sounding tubes.


----------



## brp

I remember I got a bad one and you sent a replacement. Maybe it's the one with no code.
I don't think I'm missing it, had little trouble reading it on the other one but it doesnt seem to be there on the 2nd one, I'll have another closer look while I still have it handy here....

Ya they sound better than anything else I've had in the Night Train. Although without an EQ in front of that amp, I'm not really liking it these days, except for clean stuff. It's good for that and they sound great in there for clean to subtle break up gain levels.
For higher gain, it really needs an EQ in front to bump the 600-800hz area and cut some 3khz or it drives me crazy, ever since I got the Tweaker, which is so much more... tweakable.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What sort of plate voltage does that Tweaker 15 run?

I talked to Terry of GR Amps yesterday and I brought up something that puzzles me. It seems most EL84 amps run a plate voltage above 330. I think that is high, especially for CP tubes, but Terry runs a higher PV in his amps as well. 

John posted the thread where he was having a low volume problem with a Blackstar 20 watt amp and his PV was like around 374? Holy cow!

Maybe I'm missing something as I know the screen voltage is way up there too.

Looking at data sheets, a Sylvania was rated at 300V max. All the various amp configurations were 250 to 300V.

Here is a 1955 Philips EL84 data sheet and they are listing 250V.

EL84 pdf, EL84 description, EL84 datasheets, EL84 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::


----------



## Blacque Jacque

For reference, my EL84 20/20 runs at 375v anode voltage & is biased hot as hell from the factory.

Maybe that's why it went bang ?
I really must get round to shipping it back to the factory & get it fixed.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's up there with a VOX. They run really hot.

It would seem like this would just eat a CP tube up in 6 months.


----------



## paul-e-mann

So to recap my situation. V2 and V3 in my 2204 cant fit any of the current production tubes I have in my possession other than JJ ecc83, I was trying to get away from JJ to try something else. Are there any other CP tubes that are the same size as JJ?


----------



## chee16

I just measure the bottle width of my JJ, Tungsol, Shuguang and Preferred 7025 and they are all exactly the same, 2.1mm. I didn't use my micrometer though, just my machinists ruler, but I can't see 1/2 mm making that much of a difference


----------



## Micky

chee16 said:


> I just measure the bottle width of my JJ, Tungsol, Shuguang and Preferred 7025 and they are all exactly the same, 2.1mm. I didn't use my micrometer though, just my machinists ruler, but I can't see 1/2 mm making that much of a difference



Don't you mean 2.1cm, not mm?

And why wouldn't ANYTHING not fit in a 2204?


----------



## RiverRatt

Micky said:


> Don't you mean 2.1cm, not mm?
> 
> And why wouldn't ANYTHING not fit in a 2204?




I was wondering about that, too. Are the tube sockets mounted on a board inside the chassis? If so, do the holes in the chassis have a black rubber gasket around them? If that's the case, take the rubber out and you should be able to fit anything. If the tube is microphonics afterward, go to an auto parts store and get O rings that fit the tube. It's the same as what people are selling as "tube dampers".

If none of this is applicable, please post a photo of the preamp tube sockets.


----------



## mickeydg5

In reference to the 6BQ5/EL34 250V is not a limiting design center value unless you are talking about using batteries as a supply.

I think what is being seen is a value for typical operating characteristics with given conditons.


----------



## MartyStrat54

In 1955 they were using battery power supplies on consumer electronics? Explain why a battery supply would make for a different voltage rating?

So you are saying 370V+ is an acceptable plate voltage?

I never thought an EL84 was good for that, let alone the screens. At least not where it would last at least a year of normal playing.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> In 1955 they were using battery power supplies on consumer electronics? Explain why a battery supply would make for a different voltage rating?
> 
> So you are saying 370V+ is an acceptable plate voltage?
> 
> I never thought an EL84 was good for that, let alone the screens. At least not where it would last at least a year of normal playing.


I was referring to the Limiting Value for Va which includes note #1 on page 6 of the Philips datasheet.
Well it is 250V from a storage battery by means of a vibrator.

But also these numbers are suggested values based on typical operation. Keep in mind though, who dictates what is typical or normal operation?
Notice that Vao rating is 550V. The "o" represents the 0 current condition at cutoff. The tube's main limits for our concern are dissipation/time. The numbers and charts are go-by and examples. Notice that the actual 300V rating is given for typical plate operation, but. The "but" is that at 300V and 12W dissipation the tube is generally controlled with about -11V at 40mA along with other specific typical conditions. Now think about the amplfiers in question. How are they operating at what voltages and currents. All of this is being taken into consideration. Granted though that the higher the voltages and current get, the closer you are to the danger zone.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Terry told me that running higher PV resulted in a better sounding amp.

I always thought the opposite. My RCA stereo amp runs the EL84's below 300V. If running the tubes at a higher PV was better, than why didn't RCA do this?

Also, some earlier Marshall's came with a different power tranny from the normal OE version. These trannies resulted in a PV of around 425. I have read that these amps are desirable because of their warm, organic tones.

Sometimes it's hard to wade through the water. There is so much conflicting info.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Terry told me that running higher PV resulted in a better sounding amp.
> 
> I always thought the opposite. My RCA stereo amp runs the EL84's below 300V. If running the tubes at a higher PV was better, than why didn't RCA do this?
> 
> Also, some earlier Marshall's came with a different power tranny from the normal OE version. These trannies resulted in a PV of around 425. I have read that these amps are desirable because of their warm, organic tones.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard to wade through the water. There is so much conflicting info.


The information may not be conflicting but may be presented wrong or out of context.

Comparing RCA to a Marshall is like apples to oranges. Not to mention there is a difference in preferences when generating a sound as in guitar with a musical amplifier and reproducing/amplifying a source as with hifi/stereo equipment.

The operating conditions have to be examined. The operating conditions will dictate the voltages including plate voltage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh I understand that we are talking hifi versus guitar amps. It's just that if higher plate voltage makes the tube operate better, than why didn't every company do it?

I mean by 1945, they had pretty much discovered all there was to know about tube theory. It looks like the optimum plate/screen voltages would be specified from that point onwards. I guess all the info regarding operating voltages for different classes of amplification are guesstimates? If they say 300, you can actually go much higher. Were those lower ratings what the military used, or the electronics industry in general?


----------



## mickeydg5

Whoa. You are talking about Terry's statement I presume. You mentioned that he said higher plate voltage makes his amplifier sound better, then mentioned higher plate voltage makes a tube operate better. Those are two different things. Higher plate voltage does not make a tube or amplifier "work better". Higher plate voltages can be used to get more out of a tube or amplifier to an extent.

RCA chose a state of operating parameters to produce a certain (lower) power output at targeted low distortion level. RCA's design did not require more voltage to do the job intended. So why push the envelope?

The instrument/musical amplifiers are not the same animal and they push lots of envelopes. These amplifiers are not typical or normal by those standards.

The information in the datasheets are not guesstimates. They are examples and recommendations based on typical operation and specifications whether military or consumer.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I'll have to reply in a PM to you.


----------



## paul-e-mann

chee16 said:


> I just measure the bottle width of my JJ, Tungsol, Shuguang and Preferred 7025 and they are all exactly the same, 2.1mm. I didn't use my micrometer though, just my machinists ruler, but I can't see 1/2 mm making that much of a difference





Micky said:


> Don't you mean 2.1cm, not mm?
> 
> And why wouldn't ANYTHING not fit in a 2204?





RiverRatt said:


> I was wondering about that, too. Are the tube sockets mounted on a board inside the chassis? If so, do the holes in the chassis have a black rubber gasket around them? If that's the case, take the rubber out and you should be able to fit anything. If the tube is microphonics afterward, go to an auto parts store and get O rings that fit the tube. It's the same as what people are selling as "tube dampers".
> 
> If none of this is applicable, please post a photo of the preamp tube sockets.



Serious man, those two sockets are the size for an EL84 sized tube, nothing is in the way, only the original GE tubes and JJ ecc83 fit in them (so does EL84 for reference). If you have any JJ's hold them side by side with most CP tubes and you'll see they are not quite as stout. So JJ must have gotten that spec from somewhere, its the same as the GE that came with it, theres gotta be some other tubes out there that are sized similarly. The only thing I can think of is somebody at some point replaced V1 with a bigger socket to fit CP tubes. The rivets holding them in all look the same its hard to imagine when this was done if it ever really happened. But V1 is definitely different than V2 and V3. I'm not ready to spend more money on my tech to replace them for bigger sockets, so I'd rather spend the money on tubes for now. I'm just trying to get away from JJ.

Pictures: Notice V1 tube is bigger than V2 and V3. Notice all the rivets look exactly the same. Notice Tungsol is bigger than GE (JJ same size as GE).


----------



## MartyStrat54

No pics. I'm dying to see this.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

From your pic I'd say they are not B9A shrouds, they are quite obviously smaller than the V1 shroud & probably intended for a smaller base of some kind. I think they are B7G's maybe ?

B7G PTFE SKIRTED SOCKETS BASES TUBES VALVES NEW 2 PCS | eBay

There should be plenty of room in a B9A even for CP tubes, so rather than V1 shroud being replaced, I think it's far more likely to have been V2 & V3 shrouds that have been replaced.

As for the rivets being "the same colour", aluminium oxidises fairly quickly & then the oxide layer becomes pretty stable, so they could be almost any age, but it certainly looks like the shrouds are non-original.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

On a different note, can someone tell me what exactly a 6057 is please ? 

I can't find much info on it apart from it being an AF dual triode that is pin compatible with the ECC83 / 12AX7.


----------



## paul-e-mann

So are there any CP preamp tubes the same size as JJ ecc83? That will resolve my problem for the time being.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

Well, if it were mine, I would get some proper B9A shrouds & fit them rather than waste time, effort & money trying to find a CP tube that may or may not fit.

All you should need to do is drill the heads off the pop rivets (after discharging the caps of course !!) with something like a 5mm drill, swap the shroud & fit new rivets. Make sure the ends & any swarf are completely removed from the chassis afterwards of course.

It really is a 5 minute job at most.


----------



## RiverRatt

The tubes you are referring to as GEs are actually RFTs. They are big bottle tubes, and there have been plenty of complaints of the Tung-Sol reissue not fitting some sockets. I'd say those two tubes in that picture are wider than any other 12AX7's on the market, either current production or NOS. The reason the JJ works is that it is closer to standard width. Almost any NOS or CP tube other than the two in the 2nd photo should fit.


----------



## mickeydg5

Blacque Jacque said:


> On a different note, can someone tell me what exactly a 6057 is please ?
> 
> I can't find much info on it apart from it being an AF dual triode that is pin compatible with the ECC83 / 12AX7.


I wonder why you ask this? Internet reference?

6057 is a special 12AX7/ECC83 type similar to the 6681.
F/6057 has flying leads with foreign replacements CV4035 and M8214.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Blacque Jacque said:


> Well, if it were mine, I would get some proper B9A shrouds & fit them rather than waste time, effort & money trying to find a CP tube that may or may not fit.
> 
> All you should need to do is drill the heads off the pop rivets (after discharging the caps of course !!) with something like a 5mm drill, swap the shroud & fit new rivets. Make sure the ends & any swarf are completely removed from the chassis afterwards of course.
> 
> It really is a 5 minute job at most.



Yeah I know its a quick fix but its not in my comfort zone yet to do those kinds of repairs. Its gonna cost $130 to have the sockets replaced by a local tech. Cant afford that right now but I would spend $20 on a new tube.


----------



## paul-e-mann

RiverRatt said:


> The tubes you are referring to as GEs are actually RFTs. They are big bottle tubes, and there have been plenty of complaints of the Tung-Sol reissue not fitting some sockets. I'd say those two tubes in that picture are wider than any other 12AX7's on the market, either current production or NOS. The reason the JJ works is that it is closer to standard width. Almost any NOS or CP tube other than the two in the 2nd photo should fit.



That's good info, RFT, I didn't know that. These are the CP tubes that wont fit: Mullard, EHX, Tungsol, GT, Shuguang, only the JJ and RFT that I have will fit. I know I'm splitting hairs and need to just save up for the repair, I was hoping for a good "skinny" tube that will fit for the mean time.


----------



## RiverRatt

That is really bizarre. I'd think that the Tung Sol RI and RFT would be the ones that didn't fit. I'm with the others. Get some chassis mount tube sockets without that tube retainer thing. Once you've verified that there's no voltage present, just do one at a time; unsolder a wire and solder it to the corresponding pin on the new socket. Secure the new sockets with a pop rivet or a machine screw and you're set.

There are things called "socket savers" that are used quite a bit in tube testers. It's just basically a tube socket with pins to plug in to the old socket. I don't know if they make one that'll fit in your tube retainer, but if they fit it would be like moving your tube socket up and clear of the tube sockets that are giving you trouble.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I'm late to this party. This situation was exactly what I thought when it was first brought up. It wasn't the socket per se. It was the shield base. 

12AX7's were built with + and - tolerances. Any vintage USA tubes should work as they were built to be no wider than 7/8 inch.

Many of the CP tubes do not follow these standards. This is a common problem with early DSL401's. The power tube holes in the chassis barely accepted an Ei or JJ tube. A lot of other EL84's would not fit as they were made fatter. Marshall went to larger holes in 2003.

It would have been nice if the CP manufacturers had stayed with the standard specifications.

When you kept saying sockets, it had us confused, but I knew what you were talking about.


----------



## Blacque Jacque

MartyStrat54 said:


> Okay. I'm late to this party. This situation was exactly what I thought when it was first brought up. It wasn't the socket per se. It was the shield base.
> 
> 12AX7's were built with + and - tolerances. Any vintage USA tubes should work as they were built to be no wider than 7/8 inch..../SNIP



And the spec for a B7G is 19mm max diameter for the glass envelope, or a fraction over 3/4".

7/8" is 22.225mm, so your measurement of 21mm(approx) should be within spec for a 12AX7 envelope (from Marty's figure above). From spec sheets I have seen, there is no minimum diameter specified, only a max of 22.0mm from the Phillips data sheet.

EDIT: The RCA sheet actually says 0.750" to 0.875", so they* did *specify a minimum diameter


----------



## Georgiatec

Sounds like a good excuse to put some NOS glass in Ped. 
I just measured a few for interest. All the modern stuff apart from JJ (21.5 ish) are between 21.90 and 22.13 mm. Some of the vintage tubes I have are under 21 mm. Of the vintage tubes the RFT's are the salad dodgers (21.53) and the RCA's and Mullards are the slimmest at 20.8 - 21.2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you unhappy with the RFT's? A lot of guys like them.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Not unhappy with the RFT's, they're not new old stock they're just old tubes that came with the amp. I was just interested to try other tubes to chase the tone in my head.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Where do you live?


----------



## RiverRatt

pedecamp said:


> Not unhappy with the RFT's, they're not new old stock they're just old tubes that came with the amp. I was just interested to try other tubes to chase the tone in my head.



Most of the stuff people call NOS is just old tubes that test new. Have you tried the RFT in V1 yet? That's the go-to V1 tube for several people on here.


----------



## paul-e-mann

MartyStrat54 said:


> Where do you live?



MD


----------



## paul-e-mann

RiverRatt said:


> Most of the stuff people call NOS is just old tubes that test new. Have you tried the RFT in V1 yet? That's the go-to V1 tube for several people on here.



Yup, my 2204 came with RFT in V1, V2 and V3. Right now I have Tungsol in V1 and RFT in the others. I'm just messing around. I just put the GT-EL34M's in the power section, they sound pretty good, a lot better than in my DSL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Billy Blade's lives in Maryland. You lucky dog you.

So what are you going to do? 

If you want to talk tubes with me, send me a PM.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I've been having a strange problem where I post and it automatically does a double post. I wish it would stop. I'm tired of deleting my own posts.


----------



## RiverRatt

I keep having to log in every time I use Safari on my iPhone since the iOS7 upgrade. If I use Google Chrome it remembers my info.


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I've been having a strange problem where I post and it automatically does a double post.





Me too. Started (again) yesterday


----------



## RiverRatt

Had what I thought was a good tube find today. I was digging through a box of mic cables and defective mics at this little mom & pop store nearby, and I felt glass in the bottom of the box. I pulled out a GE 6L6GC and dug deeper. I found two more 6L6GC's (RCA black plates), four 6P3S, and a GE 12AX7. There were more Russian tubes but I left them. I got home and the two GE tubes were the only ones that were good. None of the others would even move the needle. I have a decent stock of the RCA black plates but I'm always looking to add more. The last time I bought one, it was dead, too. What is the deal? The tubes don't even look used but there's zero mU. The lights are on but nobody's home.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's the magic about tubes. In most cases a bad one looks just like a good one. 

There was probably a reason why those tubes were on the bottom of the box.


----------



## RiverRatt

What goes bad? Grid leakage? The only parts you can see are the heater and maybe the cathode. The filaments are strong so the cathode should be boiling off electrons. Where are they going?

To switch channels abruptly, I saw a Gibson Hawk amp today at a flea market. The guy let me take the back off and check out the tubes. It had two Sylvania 8BQ5's and three RCA short-plate 12AX7's with flat-sided micas. I could have gotten it for $125 but I just don't think it's worth it. The tremolo doesn't work (probably one of those junky RCA's is bad) and there's a knob missing, and it looks like someone used chewing gum on the front panel fuse holder. It looks like it would be a fun amp to play around with. I was thinking about taking the old guy a set of tubes for it tomorrow. He's nice and it would be good for whoever ends up with the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Doesn't your TV-7 test for grid leakage?

There's got to be a reason that the needle didn't move at all. I mean that's about as dead as a tube can get. Odd that they are all like that.

Sounds like some sort of physical defect like a broken/bad internal connection.


----------



## RiverRatt

I tried them on the B&K 700 and they didn't move the needle on any test either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Strange.


----------



## mickeydg5

What about shorts?
An open electrode, well phooey.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, those. You do not want a hot tube with shorts. Well, female in my case anyway.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think I'll go back over to Ricky's "Speaker Wire" thread.

I think he needs to buy some plutonium wire.

Always like to hear Ricky's comments. They make me "ponder." <>


----------



## mickeydg5

And I meant hot tube as in tube top, not tube snake.

Get that out there before anyone blah blah blah.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ricky brings some stuff to the table sometimes which makes you think and have to research.

But plutonium; nah do not waste your money on that stuff for wiring.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm just funning, Mickey. Do you know how expensive that would be? I guess I could have said platinum. 

Good call on the tube top. I thought you meant trouser trout.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know, I know. Plutonium is expensive and very hard to get. Same for platinum. Ha, ha ha. But some low resistance carbon wire would be awesome. I am just funning too. I wonder if Ricky is reading this.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I know Ricky Lee. If he read this, he would say something about it.


----------



## gameshound

anybody looking for tubes???

private message me with your needs!!

Gameshound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MartyStrat54

The gameshound is back in the building. 

PM sent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've seen this tube before, but can't place it. Does anyone know who makes this for Harma?


----------



## mickeydg5

That looks like Sovtek to me. No?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Did some more researching and some say they are made by JJ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The getter looks like a Sovtek, but not the rest of construction.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have never noticed a JJ 12AX7 type to look like that.

That picture of a Harma STR 7025 has the characteristics of Sovtek to me. It looks like a cross between a WC and LPS or dare I say almost if not identical to 12AX7EH.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've seen this tube before, but can't place it. Does anyone know who makes this for Harma?



I didn't think about EH as the guys over on The Gear Page said they were JJ's. It makes sense though as EH tubes are made inside the same plant as Sovtek's and they share parts, like the getter.

That picture I posted threw me off as it looked like the plates were almost black. That and the fact that Harma was calling it a 7025.

So EH calls it a gold pin 12AX7 and Harma calls the same tube a 7025. Nice.


----------



## mickeydg5

I find the lighting when taking a picture may vary the color of the plates.
Gray may look black and black can be made to look more grayish.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Technicalities, always technicalities.

Don't these vendors know how to take pictures?


----------



## Landshark

Just a thought here.. Is there any downside (on the tech side of things, operationally) to running a 12au7 in the tonestack/cathode follower position? I know the gain will be altered, and the tube choice will make a difference in what I hear, but has anyone experimented with lower gain tubes in the tone stack/cathode follower position?

Edit: I ask this because most of the information I obtained a few pages back had to do with initial gain stages and phase inverters.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I did a little online researching. Here is an article regarding a Blues Junior. The final point made is that it is best to use a 12DW7/ECC832. The reverse is the ECC823. (Depends on which triode needs to be the 12AU7.)



> The ECC823 is an ECC832/12DW7 tube with the two triode sides "reversed."
> 
> Pins 1,2 & 3 (Triode 2)= ECC83/12AX7 Amplification factor 100, pins 6, 7 & 8 (Triode 1)= ECC82/12AU7 Amplification factor 20.Try as a Sub. for your 12AX7 for different gain.Pin outs are the same as 12AX7



Micky will have to help me out, I think that Marshall's need the ECC823 tube and the Fender uses the ECC832.

Also, this has been stated quite a bit lately. If you decide to use a 12AU7, an ECC823 or ECC832, the circuit in the Marshall was designed around a 12AX7. There will be a change in tone/performance however. You must decide if that is what you want.

Billm -- Cathode Follower Mod


----------



## mickeydg5

Landshark said:


> Just a thought here.. Is there any downside (on the tech side of things, operationally) to running a 12au7 in the tonestack/cathode follower position? I know the gain will be altered, and the tube choice will make a difference in what I hear, but has anyone experimented with lower gain tubes in the tone stack/cathode follower position?
> 
> Edit: I ask this because most of the information I obtained a few pages back had to do with initial gain stages and phase inverters.


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> I did a little online researching. Here is an article regarding a Blues Junior. The final point made is that it is best to use a 12DW7/ECC832. The reverse is the ECC823. (Depends on which triode needs to be the 12AU7.)
> 
> 
> 
> Micky will have to help me out, I think that Marshall's need the ECC823 tube and the Fender uses the ECC832.
> 
> Also, this has been stated quite a bit lately. If you decide to use a 12AU7, an ECC823 or ECC832, the circuit in the Marshall was designed around a 12AX7. There will be a change in tone/performance however. You must decide if that is what you want.
> 
> Billm -- Cathode Follower Mod


Before bothering going to far with this, what amplifier?


----------



## Landshark

mickeydg5 said:


> Before bothering going to far with this, what amplifier?



Jet City JCA20h


----------



## RiverRatt

Shark, I think there was a GE 7247 in those tubes I sent. That's the same as a 12DW7.


----------



## mickeydg5

The 12AU7 in a 12AX7 direct coupled driver/cathode follower circuit will drop gain and volume a good bit which may be choked if followed by tone stack set too low. Overall though it will do what any lower mu tube might do; drop gain/volume, maybe be a little less articulate and drop some of the higher frequency brightness.

A 12DW7 is equivalent to JJ's ECC832 and the JJ ECC823 is opposite hand.

One of those may be cool in the direct coupled driver/cathode follower configuration. According to the Jet City JCA20H schematic the tube pins match up to the 12DW7 type for 12AX7 followed by a 12AU7 configuration. That would be closer to the actual 12AX7 in that position. The opposite hand ECC823 would be closer to the 12AU7 side of things.


----------



## Landshark

RiverRatt said:


> Shark, I think there was a GE 7247 in those tubes I sent. That's the same as a 12DW7.



Yes I specifically remember seeing that one. I'll try it out.


----------



## Landshark

mickeydg5 said:


> The 12AU7 in a 12AX7 direct coupled driver/cathode follower circuit will drop gain and volume a good bit which may be choked if followed by tone stack set too low. Overall though it will do what any lower mu tube might do; drop gain/volume, maybe be a little less articulate and drop some of the higher frequency brightness.
> 
> A 12DW7 is equivalent to JJ's ECC832 and the JJ ECC823 is opposite hand.
> 
> One of those may be cool in the direct coupled driver/cathode follower configuration. According to the Jet City JCA20H schematic the tube pins match up to the 12DW7 type for 12AX7 followed by a 12AU7 configuration. That would be closer to the actual 12AX7 in that position. The opposite hand ECC823 would be closer to the 12AU7 side of things.



In regards to the first paragraph, I had tried this and it brought the JCA20h to a whole different level of amplification. It was cleaner, but with not much less volume if any. I noticed I could turn the treble up some and it wasn't unpleasant anymore which I liked. I ended up taking the tube out of that slot because I was unaware as to whether it would take out components, but that was by far my favorite slot for that tube. Sticking the AU7 in V1 and v3 cleaned the amp up almost too well, and if I had to choose which I liked better between v1 and v3 it would be v1.

I guess my only concern it if I leave a 12 au7 in there too long, will it start wearing on components more harshly than a 12ax7?


----------



## Landshark

MartyStrat54 said:


> I did a little online researching. Here is an article regarding a Blues Junior. The final point made is that it is best to use a 12DW7/ECC832. The reverse is the ECC823. (Depends on which triode needs to be the 12AU7.)
> 
> 
> 
> Micky will have to help me out, I think that Marshall's need the ECC823 tube and the Fender uses the ECC832.
> 
> Also, this has been stated quite a bit lately. If you decide to use a 12AU7, an ECC823 or ECC832, the circuit in the Marshall was designed around a 12AX7. There will be a change in tone/performance however. You must decide if that is what you want.
> 
> Billm -- Cathode Follower Mod



Ok I read the article, and If I understand right, according to Micky, my particular amp will work best with a 12DW7? Or simply sound more like a 12ax7? Or will it sound like an au7 but operate like an ax7? Gah! I'm a little confused...


----------



## Landshark

I should add that I understand that the DW7 is half ax and half au... I'm just not sure I understand how this will effect the tone (will it sound similar to the au? ) and the components (will it go boom?).

Edit: Plus I want to use the best possible operating parameters.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok first off not every amplifier will have the same level of difference. I believe I had tried that 12AU7 thing in a regular NORMAL/BRIGHT channel front end amplfier. The JCA20H has a cascaded gain stage and is juicing the driver/cathode follower a lot more especially if the gain is turned up some. So you may not hear as much of a volume decrease but it is there. As you mentioned the brightness/treble of your amplifier dropped and that is one clue. The cleaness is another because the signal dropped taking some of the overdrive out of the phase inverter tube.

Trying these mentioned tubes will not hurt your components or amplifier.

After your description of the 12AU7 I would say you may only hear a slight difference, if any, in that amplifier using a 12DW7 type. But try it.


----------



## johnfv

*Oops...*

totally off topic but I figured some of the MFers would find this interesting:


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sure, I'll comment. 

How did all that shit manage to fall out of the back of the truck? 

The only way that happened is if some disgruntled roadie(s) pushed it all out of the truck.


----------



## RiverRatt

That looks like a complete lighting rig. Maybe the stoned roadie forgot to close the back of the truck.


----------



## SpiritOfTheAge

RiverRatt said:


> That looks like a complete lighting rig. Maybe the stoned roadie forgot to close the back of the truck.



That's my bet, forgot to close the doors.


----------



## MartyStrat54

??? So he was backing up at a fast rate of speed and then hit the brakes real hard?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nah, I think from my experience with hauling shit that the above would have happened in 1st gear the instant his foot left the clutch.


----------



## RiverRatt

...and, it's all in flight cases with casters. That would need a load lock AND the back would have to be closed.


----------



## johnfv

Freeman does corporate gigs, but regardless of what type of show it was I can't imagine anyone wanting to purposely make that mess happen. It does appear to be a basement dock, I think the driveway is fairly steep. Anywho... I thought it was an interesting shot.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's one of those nightmare accidents. The band is probably on their way to the next show already. "What do you mean 'our gear is sitting on the loading dock 250 miles away?'"

I have a friend who got called in to do a cruise ship gig. It was a Caribbean cruise out of New Orleans and Brad Paisley and his crew were also on the boat. When they off-loaded, ALL the music gear went into Brad Paisley's tractor-trailer rig. My friend and the band caught up with them in Mississippi and they had to unload Brad's trailer until they got the gear separated. I think they had waayy too much fun in Jamaica.


----------



## RiverRatt

I ran across a Hammond organ in a Goodwill store for $50. I'm about 100% sure everything except the two preamps and the main amp were solid-state. The main amp used two Amperex EL84's and I scored three 12AX7's; two Amperex I65's and a Mullard I63 that look and test new. I got a Mullard 7247/12DW7 to go with the only other one I've ever seen. A Mullard and two GE 12AU7's, a GE 12BH7A and the ubiquitous 5U4GB around off the deal. I'm still looking for that gold mine of an organ that has 50 Raytheon black plates in it, but this was a pretty good find. I just took the tubes. We are going to pick up the rest tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> I'm still looking for that gold mine of an organ that has 50 Raytheon black plates in it.



Look for a 1959 to 1964 Baldwin.


----------



## MartyStrat54

*I will be on vacation until October 21. Going to Phoenix.*


----------



## mickeydg5

Happy trails.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> That looks like a complete lighting rig. Maybe the stoned roadie forgot to close the back of the truck.



This was my thinking someone repositioning the truck after someone else opened the doors and removed the ties, or had not yet tied and closed after loadout.


PS. Have fun Marty!
I assume those TADs haven't made it across customs yet? Should be there when you get back...


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got the TAD's last Friday. I should have let you know that. Sorry


----------



## RiverRatt

Happy Birthday to the one and only Martimus Maximus!


----------



## solarburn

Oh shit! Happy Birthday Maritmus!


----------



## Landshark

Happy Birthday Marty!

For those interested I tried the 12DW7 in V2 of my JCA20h, and overall I think its a pretty good tube. It didn't effect the tone as drastically as the au7 did, but its definitely a cleaner sounding tube, and it rounded down some of the treble but not nearly as much as the au. The gain and volume stayed in tact also. I'm going to keep it there for a while and see how things turn out. Would love to try a few other tube types like this.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes.


Oh, Happy Birthday Marty!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm on vacation right now, but I check my emails and PM's every day. Right before I went on vacation I shipped out a Mullard I61, Raytheon Black Plate and Sylvania Gray Plate to a younger customer.

I received a PM from him today. While I can't share the PM I will pass on some comments that his tech made to him.

First off, the customer has never tried the tube set out. His amp blew a power tube and a fuse and he took it to his tech. Before taking it to his tech he decided to put the tube set into the amp. The tech told him there was a problem as V2 and V3 were 12AX7's and they should be 12AX7A's. 

He also told my customer that the Sylvania had low output. The Sylvania I shipped was a high gain PI tube. His tech also told him that while the Mullard was high gain, it would be noisy and not reliable, that it would be okay for home use but not for gigging. (Again, these comments were made without the tubes ever being used in the amp.)

The tech also stated that since my customer's amp was a reissue he should not be using vintage/NOS tubes.



Sounds to me like the old "I'll sell you some current production tubes and take these nasty vintage tubes off of your hands."


----------



## GIBSON67

^^ Yeah that sounds like some BS for sure! Must be time for a new tech!


----------



## mickeydg5

Advise your customer, if possible, on the ABC's of tube basics and amplifiers for his general knowledge.

Then advise him to find a good technician!


----------



## brp

MartyStrat54 said:


> Sounds to me like the old "I'll sell you some current production tubes and take these nasty vintage tubes off of your hands."



That's what I surmised before even getting to this line quoted.

Make sure he verifies that he gets back the tubes that he took in.

No NOS in a reissue WTF


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Advise your customer, if possible, on the ABC's of tube basics and amplifiers for his general knowledge.
> 
> Then advise him to find a good technician!



I advised the customer about the tubes prior to him purchasing them. I told him that if he posted his tech's comments up on the forum that the general response would be for him to "find a new tech."

I'm concerned about the possibility of the tubes being switched.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> I advised the customer about the tubes prior to him purchasing them. I told him that if he posted his tech's comments up on the forum that the general response would be for him to "find a new tech."



Damned straight it would.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's funny. I won't say I've never benefited from a tube swap but it's all done on the front end of the deal. If I keep the tubes it's always in lieu of payment. 

I went into a pawn shop a couple of weeks ago and got some Grade-A homogenized bullshit from a guy who was trying to sell a guitar I once owned for twice the price I originally paid. I offered to trade him a perfectly good Strat for it and he wouldn't hear of it. I wish I could remember all the ways he denigrated my guitar - it was an award-winning performance. If he sells his red Les Paul Studio for the $1,499 he's asking, I will bow before him and call him Master. I don't know why I keep going in these places.


----------



## brp

RiverRatt said:


> red Les Paul Studio for the $1,499 he's asking



lol

I choked on my spittle a little bit when I read that


----------



## mickeydg5

I read "never tried the tube set" then "blew power tube and fuse" along with tech in the same sentence and immediatley thought to myself, I hope he didn't ---. Then I read tech and tube set together and thought "Oh yes he did! Oh shiiit." That with the tag of young customer spells bad situation.

Hopefully he gets his/the same tubes back.


----------



## Micky

I was thinking, 'how could he get a set from Marty and not try them' ?

I have the same set (I think) in my DSL and I gotta admit, he saved me YEARS of searching and rolling. Being one of the new DSL's, I would put this rig with this set of tubes up against anything. After 40 or so years of playing I have never heard an amp sound so good with so many different types of tone. It is so incredibly easy to dial this amp in to sound just the way I need it to.

And to see an apparently dishonest tech is the icing on the cake. Maybe dishonest is incorrect, but I have yet to see anyone who can repair an amp who cannot recognize good glass after the first glance. I can't believe the guy doesn't have a clue, so dishonesty is all that is left.

Bottom line, get your tubes back. I know how much they cost, and if you wanna throw that kinda money away it is crazy.


----------



## randy rhoads fan

Thank you all for your replies. Apparently I misunderstood some things that my tech said. I just got off the phone with him now.The tubes Marty sold me are fine, and one of them had so much gain, he said it was off the charts on his meter... I guess what he tried to explain to me yesterday, was that current production 12ax7 tubes are more reliable, and less prone to breakage, if the amp will be moved often compared to vintage tubes. Also that vintage tubes can be noisier. I guess I will find out when I get the amp back tomorrow
By the way, I may be new to tube talk, but I am an adult.


----------



## Micky

RiverRatt said:


> I went into a pawn shop a couple of weeks ago and got some Grade-A homogenized bullshit from a guy who was trying to sell a guitar I once owned for twice the price I originally paid. I offered to trade him a perfectly good Strat for it and he wouldn't hear of it. I wish I could remember all the ways he denigrated my guitar - it was an award-winning performance. If he sells his red Les Paul Studio for the $1,499 he's asking, I will bow before him and call him Master. I don't know why I keep going in these places.



I went into a junk shop last week to donate a couple framed doors.
There was a MIM black Strat laying on a table with a ton of other junk.
Kinda beat, broken nut, and the 5-way was rusted solid.
Had a price of $199 on it.
I picked it up, it was legit, but it looked like the tuners were bent so it had obviously been dropped. 
I offered $75 for it noting all the work that needed to be done to make it playable.

The owner of the place called the owner of the guitar (it must have been on commission) and then told me the price was firm as it was a rare Fender.

I walked out.


----------



## Micky

randy rhoads fan said:


> Thank you all for your replies. Apparently I misunderstood some things that my tech said. I just got off the phone with him now.The tubes Marty sold me are fine, and one of them had so much gain, he said it was off the charts on his meter... I guess what he tried to explain to me yesterday, was that current production 12ax7 tubes are more reliable, and less prone to breakage, if the amp will be moved often compared to vintage tubes. Also that vintage tubes can be noisier. I guess I will find out when I get the amp back tomorrow
> By the way, I may be new to tube talk, but I am an adult.



Great that you can get things worked out.

I think your tech may be mistaken when he notes that 'current production 12ax7 tubes are more reliable, and less prone to breakage, if the amp will be moved often compared to vintage tubes. Also that vintage tubes can be noisier' this is certainly not the case.

New Old Stock tubes were made to a higher standard, and in my experience are quieter than CP tubes. Your tech may have had a bad experience with NOS tubes before, but in my experience nothing, and I mean nothing sounds better and is possibly more reliable.

They don't make 'em like they used to...


----------



## EndGame00

I ordered a pair of Mullard 12AX7's , along with a matched pair of Mullard (Russian) el-34.... Can't wait to slap those babies in my amp


----------



## damienbeale

randy rhoads fan said:


> I guess what he tried to explain to me yesterday, was that current production 12ax7 tubes are more reliable, and less prone to breakage, if the amp will be moved often compared to vintage tubes. Also that vintage tubes can be noisier.



Hmmm, I still say get a new tech. This one is obviously a muppet.

Utter twaddle. New tubes are absolute crap in every respect. Old tubes MAY be more prone to microphony if using long plates, simply because that is the nature of long plate tubes. Current production long plates, even more so.

I can't think of a single scenario where I'd want to use CP tubes, unless there was a risk of physically smashing them, or the budget was near zero.


----------



## brp

randy rhoads fan said:


> I guess what he tried to explain to me yesterday, was that current production 12ax7 tubes are more reliable, and less prone to breakage, if the amp will be moved often compared to vintage tubes. Also that vintage tubes can be noisier.



I wonder what this opinion is based on. Pretty black and white statement to be making. 
Kinda mind boggling actually.
Cuz we all know how manufacturing quality and reliability has improved for everything over the last 40 years


----------



## GIBSON67

Tell your tech that you will gladly take all those old tubes off his hands since they are no good. So every time he swaps one out, just to mail that junk to you. I bet he balks on that one...


----------



## Riffraff

I'm shocked by the tech's statements. RRF - I detect a little back peddling by the tech during your second conversation with him. What your tech told you is not accurate. Maybe he is assuming you bought old untested pulls off of Ebay. I can understand his advice in that type of situation but you bought tested tubes from a very reputable seller. Marty is particularly good at recommending what tube to use in what position. His expertise in this area is far superior to your typical tech. You are in great shape on those. Enjoy them, you won't find current production tubes that can compare to those I can assure you.


----------



## mickeydg5

Is your technician reading this thread?


----------



## randy rhoads fan

I got the amp back today and tried it out with the vintage 12ax7 tubes - Mullard, Rayethon, and Sylvania.. The sound seems more textured and the highs/mids seem more pronounced. It definitely has the vintage sound vibe, and it reminds of the Hendrix sounds a bit, even though Im using a different setup of speakers and guitar.


----------



## damienbeale

(and all is well with the world again...)


----------



## randy rhoads fan

mickeydg5 said:


> Is your technician reading this thread?


 
I see a lot people have opinions about these type of stuff, and it can be entertaining, but this is the internet, and just because you hear something on the internet, doesn't mean its true. I like to see people back up their statements with facts and evidence, because everyone has an opinion- and that is subjective.


----------



## damienbeale

I could measure all sorts of parameters, but at the end of the day all it will show is a difference. It won't show what can be heard as an audible improvement. And as for NOS lasting longer, well only the years will show you that. I went through an awful lot of Chinese and Russky tubes over the years, but pretty much all of my old tubes are still going extremely strong (except a couple of I63 Mullards that are now pretty well spent).

One thing you can be sure of, is that current production stuff has a vastly higher failure rate. 

The importance of producing top quality tubes just isn't there anymore. Remember that a lot of the decent old tubes were also made with military applications in mind, and they were built to last. Nowadays that just does not happen, since nobody apart from radio operators, musicians, audio enthusiasts, and vintage electronic enthusiast actually have a use for valves these days. That is certainly factual. The current tube manufacturers don't have access to all the tube research that was learned over 50 years or so of mass production, on such huge scales. Nor are they allowed to use certain chemicals that were a big part of the plate coatings that in part made the older tubes what they were.


----------



## mickeydg5

randy rhoads fan said:


> I see a lot people have opinions about these type of stuff, and it can be entertaining, but this is the internet, and just because you hear something on the internet, doesn't mean its true. I like to see people back up their statements with facts and evidence, because everyone has an opinion- and that is subjective.


I agree and feel the same way.

It is good that you got it all straight and are happy with the amplifier.


----------



## brp

mickeydg5 said:


> I agree and feel the same way.
> 
> It is good that you got it all straight and are happy with the amplifier.



+1 to all the above.


----------



## brp

OT:

Any of you guys know what this is ???







Top right sticker says
"radiation emitting device. Use by authorized personnel only"


----------



## damienbeale

Not a panel for an electric chair is it?


----------



## signine

brp said:


> OT:
> 
> Any of you guys know what this is ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Top right sticker says
> "radiation emitting device. Use by authorized personnel only"



1940s or 50s GE medical X-ray emitter. I wouldn't advise standing too close to it if it's powered.

EDIT: it might be something even scarier. GE made some early targeted radiotherapy devices for tonsillitis and such, but they gave everyone exposed thyroid cancer...still X-ray I think though, just more powerful.

40's 50's Doctors General Electric x Ray Machine | eBay


----------



## MartyStrat54

This one uses tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

That is one badass sticker! I'm going to do a t-shirt design from it.

I'm feeling good tonight. For the first time since all this arm shit started, I feel like I played guitar tonight. I'm still just basically whacking the strings with a thumb pick but I'm getting more control. I had my Strat on the bridge pickup with the tone rolled off a little (got it wired neck & bridge). I was using a Dyna Comp into a MXR Custom Badass Modified OD into a Bogen power amp I've been messing with. I was channeling Steve Jones' "God Save the Queen" tone. I had a blast. It's the first time in months that I've zoned out and just let my hands play. I'm gonna be sick of rhythm guitar when this is over.

Just to keep with the thread, I kept one of the Amperex I65's and a Mullard I63 out of that Hammond organ. The I63 is my least favorite Mullard, but it's still a Mullard. It sounds a little too dark in some amps. I was using a Sylvania 12AX7 that tested at around 120% as the PI tube in the Bogen. It's got a Bass and Treble, but they are weird. The bass on zero is "flat" and the treble dimed is "flat" too. Maybe some kind of negative feedback manipulation? Anyway, I ended up pulling the tube from the phono input and I put the Amperex in the PI socket. It brightened the amp up and gave it some real grind. 

My attitude about phase inverters is changing. I used to think it didn't matter as long as it was a 12AX7, then I decided I needed a high gain PI to "open up" the amp. Now I'm starting to think a good tone tube adds something to the mix. It's usually the tube you hear clipping. I may be wasting the Amperex but I like what I hear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> RiverRatt-My attitude about phase inverters is changing. I used to think it didn't matter as long as it was a 12AX7, then I decided I needed a high gain PI to "open up" the amp.



Exactly. I went to high gain PI tubes at least three years ago. I still prefer the Sylvania, because by nature they are one of the highest gain vintage tubes available. However, I have used and know people that use high end 12AX7's in the PI slot.

It's all about what you think sounds good and what makes you happy.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## MartyStrat54

Nice. I think I will print that and put it in a clear plastic sleeve and put it on my front door. If it doesn't scare an intruder off, it will confuse the fu*k out of them.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Nice. I think I will print that and put it in a clear plastic sleeve and put it on my front door. If it doesn't scare an intruder off, it will confuse the fu*k out of them.



Leave some exposed wires by the doorhandle...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ha-ha. Right on!


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

Around here they'd touch the wires to see if that was what you're talking about.


----------



## chee16

What do you guys think about making a peamp tube directory for identifying old stock tubes? Might take a while, but people can post pics of tubes that
aren't obviously labelled and once the experts come to a consensus on what it is a mod can add it to a sticky thread. You guys are already doing it really, but considering this thread is huge and the search function sucks, could work out nicely.


----------



## Micky

RiverRatt - Clean out your Inbox...

BTW - Nice graphic!


----------



## RiverRatt

chee16 said:


> What do you guys think about making a peamp tube directory for identifying old stock tubes? Might take a while, but people can post pics of tubes that
> aren't obviously labelled and once the experts come to a consensus on what it is a mod can add it to a sticky thread. You guys are already doing it really, but considering this thread is huge and the search function sucks, could work out nicely.



That's a good idea and would work in a perfect world. The main problem is ambiguity. I can usually tell the difference between a black plate Raytheon and RCA, but what about the gray plate tubes? A Tung-Sol with long gray plates looks like any of several other tubes with long gray plates. The common Philips tubes (Mullard, Amperex, Siemens ünd Halske, etc) have factory codes etched into the glass and all have the telltale seams in the top, but many Philips companies simply printed the info on the tube the same way they printed the brand/logo and it rubbed off or fell off decades ago. There were several Philips companies that didn't even bother with factory/date codes and the subtle differences between factories is hard to see even with the tube in-hand. Then there's the fact that most of the Philips companies had at least three revisions of the 12AX7 and they all have differences. What we would end up with would be a database that was constantly changing and being revised, and it would still only be a general consensus that could be discredited by one clearly marked and labeled tube.

I think it's much easier to have someone post a photo of their unknown tube and let everyone chime in. If you want to get heavily into tube identification, visit tubemongerlib.com and browse all their 12AX7's. They have lots of good clear photos and their info is usually spot-on.


----------



## RiverRatt

Tube rolling, Satch-style: I traded for one of those little Peavey JSX Mini Colossal amps this week. As far as low-watt tube combos go, it's a real winner. I've had the best results cranking it with my Strat and controlling it with the guitar's volume pot. It has a good bit of headroom and when it breaks up, it has a Marshall quality to it. I've played with it a couple of days and decided that it was time to see what a primo tube swap would do for it.

The single EL84 and 12AX7 are located near one side of the chassis in a neat little cage to protect them from whatever flying debris ends up threatening their existence. So, I loosen the four screws holding the top back piece on the amp, then take the four Philips screws out of the base of the cage and replace the two tubes; a Valvo EL84 and a Mullard 12AX7. I try to put the cage back on, and none of the holes line up anymore! I figured if I anchored the near end, then surely I could get the other two cage screws in. After 20 minutes I gave up. I couldn't get my fingers and the screw and the holes all in alignment without dropping the screw, which made me have to shake the amp until the screw fell out or got stuck to the speaker magnet.

Time to take out the chassis and put an end to this madness. I took the four large machine screws, cup washers, etc. out of the top of the amp, then found two more wood screws on the back of the chassis that were screwed into the top of the amp. Got those out and I'm ready to take this sucker apart. WRONG. The chassis is too wide to come out the back of the amp! So, I have to take the corners off the top rear corners of the amp, after which the chassis finally surrenders and slides out, allowing me access to the little tube cage. It took the removal of 18 friggin' screws to get to this point. I can't test the tubes because the speaker connector is only long enough to reach the speaker when the amp is all put together, so after tightening up those same 18 screws, I'm rewarded with sound. Is it better than the stock JJ tubes? Maybe. I'm sure as hell not going through that again until I'm in a better frame of mind. I can't wait to change out the speaker for an 8" Weber AlNiCo. I may require tranquilizers for that.

FWIW, it's a pretty badass little amp. It's like a Vibro Champ on steroids, but with an effects loop and a power soak.


----------



## mickeydg5

Sounds like a pita good amplifier.


----------



## EndGame00

Is anyone familiar with those Preferred Series 12ax7's the Tubestore sells?







Reviewers seem to be raving about it.


----------



## chee16

I really like the preferred 7025 as do many others. They are made by shuguang to certain specs. I believe they are the same as the TAD 7025 and one of the Ruby tubes. That tube is the best current production tube I have tried so far, though I haven't tried everything. Worth the price for sure in my opinion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Preferred Series 7025>TAD 7025S>Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+ are all the same. The Ruby can be had for $22. ($17 if you buy direct from Ruby.)

Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+ - 12AX7 / ECC83 / 7025 - Preamp Tubes


----------



## damienbeale

The TAD 7025s (can't find the others in the UK) seems to be going for £32 on these shores. 


Um, I'll pass.


----------



## RiverRatt

You can get excellent used tubes for prices like that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'll bring this up again...$58.

www.thetubestore.com - Northern Electric 12AX7 Audio Tubes


----------



## EndGame00

I bought 4 Mullards from the tubestore and 2 of them died on me in less than a week of use....:frown:

I really, really like those tubes. I must restock my stash.


----------



## johnfv

EndGame00 said:


> I bought 4 Mullards from the tubestore and 2 of them died on me in less than a week of use....:frown: ???


CP Mullard RI? Vintage Mullard? do tell...


----------



## RiverRatt

"Died in less than a week" = CP. My Mullards are 50 years old and still going strong.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> "Died in less than a week" = CP. My Mullards are 50 years old and still going strong.


Yes, I was assuming. Still I have a BUNCH of the CP ones and all good. Would like to hear details...


----------



## EndGame00

These are reissues. 

My mini plex suffered volume drop when I have those in less than a week... I think I have them in that amp for 4 days... the ran fine for three days, and on the fourth day, the volume dropped. 

The two other mullards on the DSL are running perfectly fine...


----------



## dugger

Hey guys 
Can anyone identify this preamp tube?
This one of two came out of an 86 2204
(Has the remnant of black blobby writing near bottom)












Thanks bros


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like an Ei smooth plate to me.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll bring this up again...$58.
> 
> www.thetubestore.com - Northern Electric 12AX7 Audio Tubes




Yeahhhhh, think I'll pass on those too.


----------



## chee16

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'll bring this up again...$58.
> 
> www.thetubestore.com - Northern Electric 12AX7 Audio Tubes



I only want them if they have a gold tip version


----------



## dugger

Hey thanks Martman on the tube ID


----------



## RiverRatt

Quick OT question: I found several Sprague 160P .047mfd black beauties while scavenging some stuff this weekend. Will these make a noticeable difference in the tone controls of my Strat, or should I save them for amp work? I currently have a Sprague .05 ceramic disc cap in the Strat.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They aren't those real big suckers that guys cram into their guitars are they?

I think there is probably as much debate about tone caps as there is NOS tubes. To me an Orange Drop is an upgrade. I don't go beyond that.


----------



## Micky

RiverRatt said:


> Quick OT question: I found several Sprague 160P .047mfd black beauties while scavenging some stuff this weekend. Will these make a noticeable difference in the tone controls of my Strat, or should I save them for amp work? I currently have a Sprague .05 ceramic disc cap in the Strat.



Yes. Anything other than a ceramic cap is better.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have one that's about the size of a 5w carbon comp resistor. The good ones are maybe just short of an inch. Supposedly black beauties are the same as Sprague bumblebee caps. Never hurts to try something different. I've heard all the hype, I'll see how it sounds IRL.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why don't high end guitars use the better types of caps? Surely it wouldn't add to the production costs.


----------



## chee16

So I can upgrade the caps in my Legacy? Now I have to! Please point me in the right direction......


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Why don't high end guitars use the better types of caps? Surely it wouldn't add to the production costs.



Probably because since they're only bleeding treble to ground, the value and quality of the potentiometer has far more effect than the capacitor will on the overall sound in this instance.

I'm not saying that improvements can't be made, but it is very little improvement in comparison to upgrading certain coupling caps in an amp, for example, simply because of the vast difference in the actual application within the circuit.

Hence why most guitar production does not deem it worthy, apart from the vintage reissues.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to try one in the strat just to see if I like it better. Won't cost anything so why not?

If any of you guys are needing any tubes, I need to raise some QUICK cash. PM me what you are interested in and if I have it I will make you a good deal.


----------



## sccloser

Wow. Did not realize (or remember) that the thread was moved. Whew, I was about to panic...lol! 

Anyone have a recommendation for NOS 6L6's for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Either RCA or Sylvania's. Can't go wrong. The Sylvania's are a little cheaper than the RCA's. Now if you want to spend a little more, get the Black Plate RCA's.

If all else fails...buy some GE's.


----------



## mickeydg5

Hey that is a 6L6 question. Move it to the power tube thread.

Kidding. 



I was reading the capacitor question with guitars.
Just like in an amplifier, it is a preference thing.
I think as for manufacturers it may be preference/suffice and cost. Cheaper and smaller modern capacitors are usually less expensive I believe.


----------



## sccloser

I couldn't even find this thread, I think the power tube thread is MIA...lol!


----------



## MartyStrat54

No shit. It's probably on page 12 of the Workbench section.

I wonder how buried my speaker thread is?


----------



## Micky

MartyStrat54 said:


> No shit. It's probably on page 12 of the Workbench section.
> 
> I wonder how buried my speaker thread is?



Not nearly as buried as the 6100 thread...


----------



## RiverRatt

Micky said:


> Not nearly as buried as the 6100 thread...



Cody got married. I think he kept it going and now he has other interests.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Either RCA or Sylvania's. Can't go wrong. The Sylvania's are a little cheaper than the RCA's. Now if you want to spend a little more, get the Black Plate RCA's.
> 
> If all else fails...buy some GE's.



I like those big bottle Sylvania 6L6GC's in a Fender. When I had that Hot Rod DeVille that's what I ran in it. I had a NOS Sylvania 5751 in the first gain stage and black plate Sylvanias in the other gain stages. I finished by loading it with the long gray plate Sylvanias. 

There's a list of HRD and HRDV mods somewhere on here. It's mostly changing a few caps over to Mallory 150's. There's a linear pot or two that needs to be changed to a logarithmic and a resistor to clip. It really takes the amp into blackface territory.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I think back to all the guys that came on this thread that made me believe they were going to be here forever.

Funny.


----------



## gameshound

Hey are any of you guy's the ones buying these

NEW High Gain JJ Tesla ECC83 S 12AX7 Tested PRE AMP Vacuum Tube | eBay

AM I MISSING SOMETHING??????


----------



## Micky

No, I buy the cheap $12 JJ's that come in the same box.


----------



## mickeydg5

I think that audio store in Carolina just made some typo errors when setting up auctions.  Ha, ha, haa.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What a load of shit.


----------



## mickeydg5

gameshound said:


> Hey are any of you guy's the ones buying these
> 
> NEW High Gain JJ Tesla ECC83 S 12AX7 Tested PRE AMP Vacuum Tube | eBay
> 
> AM I MISSING SOMETHING??????


 


MartyStrat54 said:


> What a load of shit.


 


mickeydg5 said:


> I think that audio store in Carolina just made some typo errors when setting up auctions.  Ha, ha, haa.


I am not taking up for the seller
but he has the same tubes and descriptions in other auctions at about $11 per tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I've seen this before and commented on it. Sellers that have multiple similar items listed only as a "Buy It Now." If you look at the $11.70 one and then come back wanting to buy it, the buyer may end up selecting the wrong item with the high priced tube without knowing it and hit the BIN link. On EBAY, once you bid, you bought it. Of course, as a buyer you can dispute the purchase, but this can take days to accomplish.

OTOH-There are idiots that might really think the tube is worth $111.

The seller has BEL NOS/NIB tubes for sale. Did you see that? Of course they are not "real" BEL's.


----------



## RiverRatt

I hope I'm not stepping on any toes, but has anyone else noticed that the tube buyers on eBay who are assholes always seem to own a Maxi Matcher?

I'm thoroughly disgusted with selling tubes on eBay. I'm just going to keep them myself or sell a few here. I've sold tubes using my TV-7 on eBay since I got it and the only two returns I've had have been from Maxi Matcher owners. I wouldn't be selling them at all if we didn't need the money and when someone returns 3 lots of tubes, it hurts.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty
I was talking on one side of the coin. If flipped over you may be right in that the seller could be trying to mess with buyers. After all he could do something to change or correct those auctions.

The Bel ECC81 looks normal. How did you spot it not to be a Bel? The associated pictures/images with the tubes look touched up and setup by himself.

I have not been watching auctions as much lately but have noticed MaxiMatcher show up quite a bit when I did.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Do you think $13.50 is pretty cheap for a NIB BEL ECC81? I do.

He has that one picture that appears to be the front of the ECC81 box that says "NOS/NIB." His other picture shows at least 30 tubes boxes, yet he says, "15 sold, 8 available."

Whatever the case may be, I personally wouldn't do business with this guy.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> I hope I'm not stepping on any toes, but has anyone else noticed that the tube buyers on eBay who are assholes always seem to own a Maxi Matcher?



Yeah that's funny Alan. The other thing you see is, "Tests like NOS. My tester may reflect different test scores than your tester."

If a tube tests like NOS, it doesn't matter what tester you have. You would be used to what a NOS tube will read at on your tester, so the NOS tube should read in that range.

I would say that 60 percent of the tube sellers on EBAY that claim to have a "calibrated tube tester" in fact do not even own a tester.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> I would say that 60 percent of the tube sellers on EBAY that claim to have a "calibrated tube tester" in fact do not even own a tester.



I would suggest that figure might even be higher than that!


----------



## Micky

Maxi-Matcher? What is that? The Close-'n-Play of tube testers?

I thought the Orange tester was the one everyone made fun of...


----------



## mickeydg5

It is funny reading ebay descriptions sometimes.
Bid accordingly or in cases do not even bother bidding. Although it can be fun to watch.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess to keep this thread a float, I could post a daily, "Joke Listing of the Day," in regard to tubes. You know like the guy who had NOS Tungsrams with RCA labeling and sold them as RCA's...yeah I bought those, or should I say I stole them. Or the guy with a dozen I61 Mullards and listed them as Fisher tubes. Yeah, I bought them also...for cheap.

I love guys like this.


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't been able to scan for those deals Marty, but I know the rush when you find those gems flying under the radar. I used to do an eBay search for "12AX7" and go through countless pages of tubes until I spent all my money. I tipped you on that Mazda that the guy in China was selling for around $50. You asked him about it and he said "Yes is French Mazida" or something like that. Now every time I see a Mazda I think "Mazida".


----------



## 66 galaxie

So, the Orange tube testers are junk?

Yes, I'm serious.


----------



## MartyStrat54

If they were $299 I'd buy one.


----------



## johnfv

I have the VT1000, I like it a lot. Not cheap, but you can get discounts on them. Even MF has them now, next time they have one of those 15-20% coupon codes give it a go. Still probably $100 above Marty's target price 

It's great to know what of my old stash is good (most of it), confirm the ones that were bad (a couple). I really like being able to identify the high gain preamp tubes (and which are balanced or not), and of course check matching on output tubes. Now that I have it, I'd have a hard time living without it.

Not that I've owned any other tester to compare to...


----------



## johnfv

*For instance...*

There was a catastrophic failure of one of the EH EL34 tubes in my 1959T. I'm not saying for sure it was the tubes fault, there may have been other circumstances contributing but this tube is toast. So now I have a trio instead of a quad. Well I happen to have a duet of EH EL34 in my TW Express. Pop them all in the VT1000 and they are a perfect match, in fact the duet matches better than one of the tubes in my original quad. I do have a single EH EL34 if anyone needs one. 

Without it, I probably would have had to buy another quad just to make sure they were matched. Like I said, I really like my VT1000.


----------



## RiverRatt

What a dilemma... keep the tubes in the Train Wreck or the 1959? I wish I had decisions like that to make.

Micky, the MaxiMatcher is a digital tube tester that is usually owned by audiophiles or people who test a lot of tubes. I think that the current version is almost $700 and it only does the common octal power tubes and can test other tubes via a set of adapters (sold separately). If you want to do noval preamp tubes, you have to buy a separate tester for $1k.

I have the schematic somewhere for a pretty simple DIY octal tube matcher that's supposed to be pretty accurate. I think it's on my computer at work which I don't see very often.


----------



## Micky

You know, with all the tubes I see at Hamfests as well as all the tubes I have used for RF and audio amplifiers, you would think I would know more about tube testers.

I think I had the rationale that I was smart enough (and poor enough) to let someone else test any tubes I might need...


----------



## RiverRatt

How did that work out for you? 

I'm going to give my TV-7 a good going over, check voltages, etc. That seems a little excessive because one person said it was testing too high but it's going to bug the hell out of me until I know.


----------



## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> What a dilemma... keep the tubes in the Train Wreck or the 1959? I wish I had decisions like that to make...


I've been working 2 or 3 jobs at a time since I was 18 or so. Have always played in bands. I would work the day gig and then go to the studio or a gig all night, then start again. It will run your ass down. Good thing is I have some nice guitars and amps now... and a VT1000. 

I'm so impressed by the TAD EL34s in my 2204 I may need a quad for the 1959T anyway.

Hope u r doing great Alan!


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah man, I'm getting by. I'm in the back room with a Strat, Marshall Guv'nor and the Tweaker 15 thru a 1x15 cab. When you can make a sound like that, life ain't all bad.


----------



## gameshound

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-VACUUM-TUBE-LOT-GE-RCA-12AX7-ETC-/181263330090

Man somebody should jump on this soon!!!
It just might sell sometime in the next 20 years!!!




Man Alive!!
Am I missing something???????????


----------



## mickeydg5

:yoda: Impressive is the mojo from this glass
 Cha ching


----------



## RiverRatt

gameshound said:


> Am I missing something???????????



We're missing a Western Electric 300B.


----------



## brp

As per my tradition
<----- post #5k ITT


----------



## Micky

brp said:


> As per my tradition
> <----- post #5k ITT



Congrats!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hello...mission control? 

Anybody out there?

BUMP!


----------



## mickeydg5

Ain't gonna bump no more, da da da daa daa da


----------



## GIBSON67

I'll do some bumping for you and show one of my recent tube scores, not bad for $15...and if you can't read it, that's a Mullard with code B0K3 along with a longplate RCA.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Mullard I62's were only made for about 1 to 2 months. May and June 1964 are the only ones I've ever seen or heard of.



I have a couple of these. I guess they are rare. A used pair sold on EBAY in July for $170.


----------



## mickeydg5

Cannot complain about two nice old tubes for only $15. 

Marty
How did the I62's score and sound?


----------



## solarburn

Happy 5K Bill!


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are both really stout, around a 32-32 on my 707. The only thing I noticed different was the darker coating on the plates versus an I61. Typical Mullard internal construction.

To me they are a little darker sounding in the mids than a I61, which makes since, because of the different coating formula.


----------



## mickeydg5

32/32 nice. They usually sell high.
Greengirl recently sold two pairs at about $119 each set.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Gee I guess there must be more of them floating around than I thought. How many do you think they could have made in 60 days? In fact, that's a good question. On average, how many tubes could a manufacturer make in a day? That would be interesting to know.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey guys, been away for awhile. Looks like I'm not missing much!

I've been working on a B&K 700 I picked up awhile back. I'm about to calibrate it and see what it'll do. It seems like a good tester, it's just reading way off. I went ahead and made a solid state rectifier for it. Hopefully I'll be able to use it as a backup tester with my TV-7. 

Mullard I62's?? I've never even seen one.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, Alan I had those I62's labeled wrong. I put them in my Amperex inventory for some reason. (I think it was because they had the red Hammond logos like a lot of Amperex do.)

They were made for approximately 60 days before Mullard revised to the I63's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From left to right-I61, I62 and I63.
















I thought the I62 had a darker plate coating, but it doesn't. All three tubes look virtually the same. The main difference is the stiffner cap on top of the top mica. Each tube uses a different material. The I63's look like it is some sort of plastic and the others look like some sort of non-conductive fiber.


----------



## RickyLee

@Marty: I am wondering if I got a weak valve here. I got two I61 Mullard ECC83's and one has a robust flash on start up while the other does not. Is the one without the flash weak or bad?


----------



## damienbeale

It's only a heater filament, Ricky. As long as it's up to working temperature, it ain't gonna affect the tube.

Unless it's shorted to something else of course...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah it's fine Ricky. The flash has nothing to do with how strong the tube is.


----------



## RickyLee

Cool. Just wanted to make sure it was not a sign of a valve with many hours on it already.


----------



## fleeter

Greetings - i am a newbie here to this forum. I have a JCM900 50 watt 2x12 combo (4102) i believe. I had a preamp tube go microphonic on me at a recent gig. Any recommmendations on what tubes I should get for this amp?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the best tube is a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and you can use current production in the other slots. That and a small patch cord in the Send/Return jacks.

If you are looking at CP, I would go with the Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ in V1. Then you can use JJ's or EH's in the other slots as an economical choice.


----------



## Dannyboy10

Hello all, I've been learning a lot reading through this thread. Lots of great folks willing to help! Great stuff.

I took a break to ask a question and get some reccomendations and on pre amp and possibly some power tubes as well.

I play through a dsl 201 w/ WGS 55 hz Reaper. I changed the tubes about a year ago to JJ's EL84's and the ECC83S's. I basically just picked a re tube kit and ran with it, didn't put much thought into it.

The only issue is I find both channels a little too compressed for my liking, a little too nasally. Any suggestions? I don't like a heck of a lot of gain so I was considering maybe a 5751 in V! ? or V2? I'm not sure the difference between V1 and V2 so can't say where it would it would benefit me more?

Anyway thanks for reading.


----------



## mickeydg5

Hello Dannyboy10

I believe most of the guys here state that JJ preamp tubes kind of tone things down.
I think you want some tubes that will help to open up the sound of that amplifier.
Here is a thread which I do not know if you have seen yet but is a little older.
The 401 is basically the same amplifier as the 201.
http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/11005-dsl401-tube-recommendations.html

Marty may have some other tricks up his sleeve for you as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Danny, V1 is the tube that dictates most of the tone and in a DSL V2 is additional gain stages.

What I am currently recommending is the Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ ($21) for V1 and V2.

Then you can put two of your JJ's in V3 and V4. These slots are okay with the JJ's.

Keep in mind that you will notice that your amp will be brighter/livelier than when it had the JJ's in V1 and V2.


----------



## Dannyboy10

mickeydg5 said:


> Hello Dannyboy10
> 
> I believe most of the guys here state that JJ preamp tubes kind of tone things down.
> I think you want some tubes that will help to open up the sound of that amplifier.
> Here is a thread which I do not know if you have seen yet but is a little older.
> The 401 is basically the same amplifier as the 201.
> http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/11005-dsl401-tube-recommendations.html
> 
> Marty may have some other tricks up his sleeve for you as well.



Hey thanks for the link good read.

If by tone things down they mean a very nasally tone, I agree. I could just be me. They definitely cut down on the harshness on the treble but I was looking for something warmer. Its hard for me to describe!

It could also be the speaker I have in there who knows.

But I would like something to open it up a bit but not make it harsh.


----------



## Dannyboy10

MartyStrat54 said:


> Danny, V1 is the tube that dictates most of the tone and in a DSL V2 is additional gain stages.
> 
> What I am currently recommending is the Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ ($21) for V1 and V2.
> 
> Then you can put two of your JJ's in V3 and V4. These slots are okay with the JJ's.
> 
> Keep in mind that you will notice that your amp will be brighter/livelier than when it had the JJ's in V1 and V2.



Thanks for taking the time Marty.
So am I understanding correctly that V1 would dictate the green ch tone and V2 would be for the red ch(it's 201 so I only have 2 channels). Or do they kind of roll into each other? Sorry for the simplistic explanation, I have alot to learn!

I'm all for brighter and livlier as long as it doesnt get harsh. Would the Ruby's do this? I'm a big fan of the neck pickup tone on a strat (less spank more round?)

I was thinking a Jan Phillips 5751 in V1 and something else in V2 (the Rubys maybe). What can I expect from that?

Thanks again.


----------



## paul-e-mann

Dannyboy, you wanna lower compression in a DSL put KT77's in the power section. (sorry, not a preamp post)


----------



## Dannyboy10

pedecamp said:


> Dannyboy, you wanna lower compression in a DSL put KT77's in the power section. (sorry, not a preamp post)




I don't think those fit in a DSl 201?


----------



## paul-e-mann

They are a direct replacement for EL34 so they will fit. Read up on it and you will see. Many members here use them.


----------



## mickeydg5

A DSL201 uses EL84 power tubes.


----------



## paul-e-mann

OK, I never heard of a DSL with EL84's. Sorry.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 201 is an EL84 amp.

The 5751 will drop your gain some. The preamp circuit in your amp is designed as a high gain circuit so a 5751 will still have a lot of balls in V1.

A 12AX7/5751 has two distinct sections, two triodes. So in V1 and V2 the tubes have two gain stages per tube. With this in mind, V1 uses one triode as the first gain stage for the clean channel and the other triode is the first gain stage for the lead channel.

Using a 5751 and the Ruby will give you some change in gain, but probably not a big difference.


----------



## Dannyboy10

What about changes in tone? Say a NOS tube in V1 vs the Rubys?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Depends on what NOS tube you are using. Unlike CP tubes, NOS tubes have a variety of tonal characteristics.

Here are some good descriptions.

The Amp Garage :: View topic - Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes


----------



## Dannyboy10

MartyStrat54 said:


> Depends on what NOS tube you are using. Unlike CP tubes, NOS tubes have a variety of tonal characteristics.
> 
> Here are some good descriptions.
> 
> The Amp Garage :: View topic - Guide to NOS and Vintage Audio Tubes




Thanks for answering all my questions man I really appreciate it.

The link had alot of excellent information. I'm afraid my budget wont allow me to get some of them! But good info either way.

Can you reccomend something other than the Rubys for V1 and V2?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the Ruby's are the same tube as a Preferred Series 7025 and a TAD 7025S. Both of these tubes are priced very high whereas the Ruby is around $20.

If you are inclining that is too expensive, I can only point you to JJ's. They are cheap, but you get what you pay for.


----------



## johnfv

For CP tubes I like the Mullard and Tungsol reissues. I like classic rock crunch and I've pretty much decided the Mullard is my favorite (but don't confuse it with a REAL vintage Mullard), it has a nice balanced tone that lets the mids shine. Shuguang (Chinese) can be a good choice as well, I might prefer for higher gain crunch. The JJs are fine but as others said they tend a bit dull sounding (in some cases that can be good), generally I don't care for them so much in V1. You really just need to try a few and see what you like. If you can spare about $55 you could get the Mullard, Tungsol, Chinese and a TAD and try them all. Amplified Parts (one of the sponsors here) has good prices and free shipping on $50 or more. 5751 can be fine too but don't expect a dramatic gain difference.

If you really want the good stuff, talk to Martimus Maximus about vintage tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah, Alan I had those I62's labeled wrong. I put them in my Amperex inventory for some reason. (I think it was because they had the red Hammond logos like a lot of Amperex do.)
> 
> They were made for approximately 60 days before Mullard revised to the I63's.



Maybe they were a transition tube that was made to use up the I61 parts they had in stock. Those in your photos do look like I61's.


----------



## Dannyboy10

So I ended getting the Mullard RI and the Ruby 12ax7 HG+. Thanks for every ones help. So I figure I can use the JJ's in V3 and V4 and roll the other two to see where I like them best.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like a plan. Roll the Mullard RI and the Ruby in V1 and see which one you like best.


----------



## solarburn

Warms my heart to see more tube questions and rolling in the right slots. Good times!


----------



## solarburn

Hey Joe! It's me Marty! I've got the tubes man open the door! Who? Marty...!

I've already got tone packs in my amps!

These are REALLY good man...

Pop em' in man!

And that's how me and Marty roll...LOL!

Course if I really lived next to Marty you guys wouldn't get the good ones...hehe.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey man...you crazy fook. You're in a good mood. Must be the amp.

I asked you a few days ago about whether you are still running with my preamp tube lineup, or did you tweak it with something else.

I can't even remember what was in V1...Dario Green Label MiniWatt?


----------



## johnfv

Dannyboy10 said:


> So I ended getting the Mullard RI and the Ruby 12ax7 HG+...


With those 2 and the JJ you have a good range of CP tone options to compare in V1. The JJ should be darker, the Mullard RI in the middle and the Ruby a bit brighter (but also full low end). Let us know what you like best and why.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey man...you crazy fook. You're in a good mood. Must be the amp.
> 
> I asked you a few days ago about whether you are still running with my preamp tube lineup, or did you tweak it with something else.
> 
> I can't even remember what was in V1...Dario Green Label MiniWatt?



Yeah I still haven't looked what order they are in but they are the ones you put in it. Firing it up and playing is as far as I get. I'll look soon.

The amp is making me giddy.


----------



## wiorys

Imho old Marshall chinese tubes with square getter are very nice for high-gain sounds-they have nice gain, but are still clear/crunchy/have nice bite. Similar to Sovtek 12ax7WB, but just overall better.
New chinese tubes are warmer/mode mid focused, tighter, imho they lack that aggresive upper-mid bite and some low end of older tubes. Some people say that old chinese tubes sound just like new ones, I don't know, maybe my old tubes are 'worn', they do sound different.


----------



## RiverRatt

I've been playing around with a Micro Terror, rolling different 12AX7's. I was beginning to believe that nothing was going to be an improvement, but a strong Sylvania really did well. I got a lot more clarity and crunch. 

I still have a couple of those Chinese 5751's that I got from a generous forum member. They test like a fairly hot 12AX7 and probably are just that. They are the square getter Shuguangs and the tone is really good.


----------



## Rokstar

Hi everybody,

I need some help regarding some preamp tubes. When looking through eBay offers for instance on Mullard 12ax7 first can you tell me is there tonally any significant difference between I61, I62, I63 and I65, what about short vs long plate? What would you suggest for a 2555SL? Secondly, if a seller writes something like 1,2 mA=100% and the tube makes for instance 1,3mA and 1,2mA, what can I assume here? Also what strikes me, some don´t say what tester they used, but write things like 3,5mA and 3,5mA, so how can I know where good or 100% starts in such an example? What is safe to buy? Or is it normal to pay 100$ for one tube and then get a worn out tube? I am mainly intereted in Mullards, Valvo and Philips as I read that those were mostly produced by Mullard. Any input is welcome!


----------



## RiverRatt

My favorite Mullard is the mC1 long plate. They were made until around 1960 and were superceded by the I61, which is my next favorite. 

I really don't know about those test scores but I'm sure someone here will.


----------



## chee16

Be really careful buying ebay. $100 is way too much for one tube, sure there are some that are that rare and some people covet but don't bother, it isn't realistic to think that it will blow your mind, plus good luck replacing it. I surfed ebay a lot but didn't buy much, I usually set my max bid too low for a reason, haha. I would recommend contacting a reputable seller, first to come to mind is Martystrat on here. He is more then reputable and has the testers to give you a great tube for a reasonable price. The problem with ebay and tubes is that even if they give a pic of the tube in a tester, when was it calibrated, how can you be sure it is the same tube you are getting, and once you get the tube unless you have a tester how can you possibly tell if it is what they say it is? Too many variables to over pay for a tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

There are some premium tubes that are already worth well over $100 and are continuing to rise in price. It's not so much of a gamble if you buy from a good seller who accepts returns and you don't go any higher than market value.


----------



## Georgiatec

Shit  ....rolling tubes in my little JCM1 today, lined up the spring in the can on V1 wrong and snapped the tip off a lovely vintage Mullard ECC83  ....What a muppet


----------



## johnfv

Georgiatec said:


> ...snapped the tip off a lovely vintage Mullard ECC83  ...


Damn that sucks. I've been rolling tubes today in prep for another Lance Keltner Group gig tonight. We're on a very small stage so I'm trying out different amps to reduce my footprint (rolling tubes for the best tone). I'm treating my vintage tubes very gently, hope to avoid any mishaps! Having a hard time getting something to sound as good as my 2204HW...


----------



## DirtySteve

RiverRatt said:


> I've been playing around with a Micro Terror, rolling different 12AX7's. I was beginning to believe that nothing was going to be an improvement, but a strong Sylvania really did well. I got a lot more clarity and crunch.
> 
> I still have a couple of those Chinese 5751's that I got from a generous forum member. They test like a fairly hot 12AX7 and probably are just that. They are the square getter Shuguangs and the tone is really good.



I bought a Micro Terror when I decided to rebuild my amp so I would have something to jam with. I rolled a bunch of tubes in it and one of the black plate Raytheons you sent me sounded best and brought it to life. I'm not sure if it's that really high gain one I got from you a while back or the one Minerman had you send me, now I've lost track of which was which. but it sounds really good in there.


----------



## DirtySteve

edit: wrong thread.


----------



## DirtySteve

oops.


----------



## solarburn

Georgiatec said:


> Shit  ....rolling tubes in my little JCM1 today, lined up the spring in the can on V1 wrong and snapped the tip off a lovely vintage Mullard ECC83  ....What a muppet



Yeah...that's a bummer. Shit happens though. Why couldn't have been a current tube...

We should have a moment of silence for the Mullard since it was a fine vintage sexy sounding preamp tube that created sonic bliss.

:yoda:


----------



## Chas_W

Hello all, I am new to this forum and thread. I have been reading the thread for some time now a few pages a day. In a many months I may be caught up. LOL. Lots of great information. 

I have been rolling tubes a lot. Some observations at least with high gain.... I have not noticed that huge a difference in overall sound. The difference to me seems more with feel. When rolling and playing I can feel the difference more than hear it. When rolling and re-amping it seems to not make much difference at all although the wave forms looks different and won't null. I forgot to try a re-amp with same tubes and see if they null. Lastly not knowing the specs of your tubes kind of makes rolling a total blind ambition with no reference point since all my 12ax7 may only be as good as my 12au7 from gain perspective. I have no clue. 

I have am assortment of tubes talked about on this thread. I do not think have any incognito Mullard or Tele's. So yeah I have NOS, ANOS and CP. 

That is all for now.
Charlie


----------



## RiverRatt

DirtySteve said:


> I bought a Micro Terror when I decided to rebuild my amp so I would have something to jam with. I rolled a bunch of tubes in it and one of the black plate Raytheons you sent me sounded best and brought it to life. I'm not sure if it's that really high gain one I got from you a while back or the one Minerman had you send me, now I've lost track of which was which. but it sounds really good in there.



Did I send you a Raytheon JRP that maybe had a few dots left of orange print? Raytheons don't come any higher-gain than that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sent Steve a lopsided, high gain Raytheon Black Plate to use as the PI in his amp. Apparently it kicks ass.

I don't get too many Black Plates with test scores like that.


----------



## DirtySteve

RiverRatt said:


> Did I send you a Raytheon JRP that maybe had a few dots left of orange print? Raytheons don't come any higher-gain than that.



Yes, that's the one. I had to pull it and look at it. I did have it marked with a sharpie, but moat of it burned off or I wiped it off somehow. Now that you reminded me it's a JRP and could make it out. I have it marked better now.


----------



## DirtySteve

MartyStrat54 said:


> I sent Steve a lopsided, high gain Raytheon Black Plate to use as the PI in his amp. Apparently it kicks ass.
> 
> I don't get too many Black Plates with test scores like that.



It does indeed, it also sounded pretty damn good in V1...brutal! but I put it back in the PI. I think it does better there than the others I tried. I also tried the JJ el84s again for a comparison since I've had the TADs in there for a while now. No question about it, the TADs are more open and clearer with much better bottom end.


----------



## Chas_W

Marty, who did you buy your tube tester from? What is this guy mwmabry ebay item 111242280733 ? Your description back on page 80 something and this seem to be the same. I have a bunch of tubes I need tested to find out wtf I really have so I may as well purchase one and learn how to use it. 

Thanks.
Charlie


----------



## Dannyboy10

johnfv said:


> With those 2 and the JJ you have a good range of CP tone options to compare in V1. The JJ should be darker, the Mullard RI in the middle and the Ruby a bit brighter (but also full low end). Let us know what you like best and why.


 
After playing around with some different combinations, the Ruby in V1 and the Mullard RI in V4 sounded the best for me. A big difference from the JJ's I had in all slots before, just a bit clearer and open. I had a balanced JJ in V4 it sounded a bit blah. I don't know if it was just putting an unbalanced tube in there or maybe the gain was a bit lower with the Mullard RI.

So I ended up with Ruby in V1 JJ in V2 JJ in V3 and Mullard RI in V4.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chas_W said:


> Marty, who did you buy your tube tester from? What is this guy mwmabry ebay item 111242280733 ? Your description back on page 80 something and this seem to be the same. I have a bunch of tubes I need tested to find out wtf I really have so I may as well purchase one and learn how to use it.
> 
> Thanks.
> Charlie



Hi. What I did was I sent my B and K 707 to him and he refurbished it for me. He is very good at restoring old tube testers.

If he has tube testers for sale on EBAY I can vouch for him that you will be getting a damn nice unit.


----------



## Chas_W

Thank you Marty.


----------



## Chas_W

I forgot to mention what I am using. There is still 400 pages I have not read in this thread yet and perhaps someone else has been down this road.... 

My current amplification is Randall RM4 MTS and various modules and from that into my DAW and Torpedo WOS for virtual power amp and cabinets. This serves me well for recording purposes. When I was to just get loud I run the RM4 into a solid state head and I have no clue what speakers are in my 30+ year old 1x12 cabinets. 

So yeah this RM4 could be odd ball regarding tube usage and gain stages. I haven't been able to find schematic and no reply yet in the MTS forum regaring that info and what parts of what tubes are used and if any of that is module dependent.

Just some random tubes I know I have.... JRP Raytheon 12ax7 black and grey plates, Realistic Lifetime 12ax7, some RCA 12ax7 BP, JRC 5751 BP, some RCA 5751, several JAN Philips and ton of CP tubes that I don't use on principal. I have some other tubage too in the 12A7 12AU variety. 

Cheers,
Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like you have a nice stash.


----------



## Chas_W

Its not massive and just sort of build up over the last couple years. The most I ever paid was 25 buck for any given tube. Most were less or pulled from other gear (an replaced with CP tubes before I sold) that I cycled though years over the years. Did you ever get message I sent you a few weeks ago? I can't recall if I send email direct or filled out your web form. If you aren't interested that is cool and if you never got it I will PM you now that I have joined the forum. 

Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've had a lot of emails, but I don't recall yours. Send me a PM.


----------



## johnfv

Dannyboy10 said:


> After playing around with some different combinations...


You are not the first to decide the CP Chinese tube works best for you. This is why you MUST try the different combinations. Welcome to the MF gang!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just noticed that this thread has blasted past 500,000 views. 509,000+.

We are still the #2 all time thread. Maybe we will become #1, but the thread that is #1 was mostly a daily conversation thread consisting mostly of comments not pertaining to the thread topic.


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## EndGame00

I have EH in V1 and CP Mullard on V2 on my DSL... It actually sound good to my ears.... There's a certain balancing act between those two toobs.

I bought CP TungSols and I didn't like the tone. they just sound wierd and harsh to me. They're staying in the box.


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## johnfv

EndGame00 said:


> I have EH in V1 and CP Mullard on V2 on my DSL... It actually sound good to my ears.... There's a certain balancing act between those two toobs.
> 
> I bought CP TungSols and I didn't like the tone. they just sound wierd and harsh to me. They're staying in the box.


It's a very personal thing and of course varies dramatically depending on what amp they are going in. I didn't care for the EH so much but like the Tungsol. My TW Express clone tends a bit bright and gainy, I found a JJ 5751 is the best V1 tube, better than everything else I tried (including some prized vintage tubes). The only way to find out what works best for you is to roll 'em...


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## EndGame00

johnfv said:


> It's a very personal thing and of course varies dramatically depending on what amp they are going in. I didn't care for the EH so much but like the Tungsol. My TW Express clone tends a bit bright and gainy, I found a JJ 5751 is the best V1 tube, better than everything else I tried (including some prized vintage tubes). The only way to find out what works best for you is to roll 'em...




I rolled the Tungsol along with other preamp tubes before, and also tried different power and preamp tube combination using my Fargen Mini as a test subject... Tonal-wise, the Tungsol just didn't sit well for me.... 

As for the moment, the modded DSL15 has two JJ 12ax7, 1 CP mullard, and stock preamp.

Fargen has one EH and one CP Mullard.

Mark IV has EH on all preamp sockets.

Tube rolling is such an expensive addiction...


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## RiverRatt

Damn, I miss my Marshalls! I was going through some riffs I recorded with my Vintage Modern half stack and ran across this. It's posted somewhere back in this thread but the link is bad. Piss Off the Neighbors. There's a story that goes with the title.

SoundClick artist: Alan Murray - page with MP3 music downloads


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## sarmation

Phase inverter Tube Fun

Finally got some tube rolling time on the JVMJS after spending a month on my jCM MK3 to get it where I want. I still want a mid sweep installed on the diodes like similiar to the one on the boss metal zone but that's another story.

As far as 12at7's ,12au7,12ay7 and 12az7 they do provide some interesting tones and feel and would be helpful in the studio for certain tones and dynamics I found none of them are that good across the whole gain spectrum from clean to hi gain.

So the outline is I rolled the other tubes and my favourite to my ears is V1 AND V2 are long black plate RCA's .V3 and v4 are JJ ecc83s. I do find these are good work horse tubes in those slots and I cant afford to wear out 5 Out of production tubes at once.A final note on the JJ's. 
The effects loops control seems to be in series even with no cord bridging the loop and when engaged It does bring in a slight amount of lower mids when turned on into the signal with them in that position and I'm a mid range kinda tone guy so I put one in the tone stack also not sure if it matters or not but I like the setup.

So to be biased I bribed my son with a large Double Double and a couple dougnuts from Tims to do the tube switching without telling me and to take his own notes . For fun to compare since he's been listening to me wank away for 20 years.
as a side reference I figured since everyone has heard a ton of ACDC I'd pick a era of the band that the crunch green reminded me of not the gain of the tone just the frequencies.These are all just what they did in the PI slot and have no bearing on what I think of them in the other slots.I'm gonna keep most of the review to the lower gain stages unless something really worth mentioning as cleaner always lets ya hear more articulations.

First up was another
RCA Long Black Plate
Clean green , sweeping chords were very nice ,tiny bit chimey for my ears but nice all the same but picked notes got poppy on the attack if ya dug in..

Crunch Green Very tight sounding not a lot of harmonic overtones <lots when feeding back though> actually made the strings feel tighter on the guitar.Would work well in a two guitar classic rock band for rhythm to keep it from sounding to congested. Reminded me of the intro Shake your Foundations.

Crunch orange and up to high gain.Got a little to hi-fi to me and the the bass did increase with each gain stage'I can see why the stereo guys like em.
The surprise on high gain settings
Had a very tight bottom end comparable to running a clean boost on hi gain for palm muted work and was one of the best in that area if ya stuck to low en diads.

Genalex Gold Lion<current production>
Clean Green was plain sounding, very true to the fundamental note,probably work well with a lot of effects chorus and delays and still sound clear but was bland by itself.

Crunch Green was Ok sounding, still true to the fundamentals more then the harmonics even on feed back the fundamental note would ring more often then overtones.Compared to the Rca where I'd get more thirds ect.Less PI distortion then the RCA Sounded like Into chords to Back in Black.

Tungsol <current production>
Clean Green Didn't like it much here to much top and really lacked bass rolling off the treble didn't help.

Crunch green Did a fairly decent job here and had very very thick sounding single notes<impressed me in that department>.Did the intro to Shook me all night long very well.

Hi gain was ok, a searing sound that would cut but had a awesome smooth gradual transition from note to harmonics and it seem to like to bring out octave overtones during feedback then other intervals.

Rogers <made in Holland seamed glass rest of print wiped off>
Clean Green I really liked this tube on this channel, top end was rolled off naturally on it and had a very pleasant tone that you could listen to all day with no ear fatigue.

Crunch Green. This is a very classic sounding tube here less Pi distortion then the others and really reminded me of Go down and Did night prowler great with soft chording.
Hi gain was a little messy for my liking and grabbed really high overtones on feedback that wasn't that musical to the ears.

Telefunken 
Clean Green Very nice very similar to the Rogers but a bit more hi-fi slight bit more top end but a awesome tube here.

Crunch Green this was a interesting tube in this spot worked well enough but no ACDC . Every riff I tried sounded like Queensryche trying to play Acdc on their gear.Very Dynamic tube I think it would work well for those wide pallet guys that can pull off stuff like steve vai.

High Gain was still hi-fi sounding but very thin not alot of mids on high gain might be able to change that with eq settings and get a good thick lead sound but not changing settings during the test.

JJ ecc83s
Clean Green very nice focus on low mids very acceptable tube here very similar to the Rogers just a bit heavier on lower mids.No bad things here for this one.Unless ya love pretty bell like tones<Not my bag>

Crunch Green Funny tube on this channel for a fairly high gain tube it barely made it to Shot down in flames Type gain.Nothing to complain about though.Nothing a little tweaking couldn't fix.

Hi gain Probably not everyone's cup of tea ,but on OD red it nails the tone from ZZ TOP I got the six if ya go listen to that tune and dig that tone this tube does it exactly on OD red.I was extremely impressed it really growls there and is a standout there compared to all tubes.

Sylvania 7025a Made in Canada
Clean green.This is the one for them large Bell like clean sounds.Just Beautiful sounding, warm lots of resonance and a awesome decay tons of charector.I strummed alot of open chords with this one listening to all the subtle things going on in the sound.

Crunch Green not alot of gain on this channel,but very good tone and nailed Riff Raff to a tee.Very open yet woody natural sound.

High Gain.Not sure how to describe this but great tone not as thick in the mids as a couple others ,but it has this snap to lead lines as a example a muted ascending pentatonic scale then ya grab the minor third on the g string and bend and vibrato ect just awesome.Think of the sharpness of a slap to the face on a cold day but with great tone thown in.
This is up there for best tube all around in Pi position I will be watchin ebay for a few more of these for sure as they can be alot cheaper then others.

GE long grey plate

Clean Green Another nice Bell sounding tone tube this is right up there for good clean tone little more toppy then the Sylvania but I wouldnt kick it outa bed.

Crunch green Bit lower PI distortion then alot with this tube but still worthy. The tone worked for all the riffs from Flick of the switch really well.Remeber were talking tone of these songs not the gain level.

Hi gain this tube had the lowest extended bottom end of all tubes and kept it tight.Made a note to try this with some drop D tunes and drop c# I think it will be a really nice tube for that frequency area.

So thats all for now.All tests were done on the jvmjs with a 1960 slant with the back wall insulated as well as the inside of the handles.Second cab used was a traynor all birch cab loaded with v 30's.Les paul non weight releived with 57 classics,91 Jackson rhoads professional series std and a 86 Hamer.

I have a bunch more old tubes I'll get to hopefully soon like Rca's with side getters.Japanese tubes Lorenz and some more Ge's. and canadian tubes. I have a bunch of lower gain tubes to try maybe one day I'll get to own a bassman or something thats made for them.

Little summary if Marshall could build single channel amps to match Clean green/crunch green and a red or orange od channel and have a abc box so I could put different tubes in for each channel I think that would be awesome.:>

Happy New year.


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## solarburn

Nice review on the rolling sarmation. Enjoyed the details/findings.


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## gibguy

Gave my DSL a treat today new NOS tubes from Marty! Haven't put my guitar down since I installed them 5 hours ago. Hurts so good. The sound of the amp now is so much more complex. Touch sensitivity is amazing. It's like comparing champagne to Boones Farm. I can't sing Marty's praises enough. I contacted him Christmas night and I believe next day I decided on what I wanted which was a full set of 4 preamp tubes. Tubes were at my door today. In my mind incredible service.


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## MartyStrat54




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## MartyStrat54

Great job sarmation. Thanks for taking the time to post and welcome to the forum.


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## sarmation

Thanks fellas was sorta inspired to write something cause I'd always relied on v1 for tone changes but I'm in the school now that the PI does just as much as all the others..So question though, the Rogers tube green writing made in Holland I really really like it.Anyone happen to know who made them?


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## mickeydg5

Rogers was a Canadian tube manufacturer which was bought out by Philips in the early 1940's. Good stuff. I would say Philips manufactured the tube in Holland and sold it under the Rogers brand.


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## sarmation

mickeydg5 said:


> Rogers was a Canadian tube manufacturer which was bought out by Philips in the early 1940's. Good stuff. I would say Philips manufactured the tube in Holland and sold it under the Rogers brand.



Thanks for the info Mick,hopefully I can find a few more.


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## MartyStrat54

Are there any codes on the Rogers on the side near the bottom? Amperex supplied a lot of organ tubes. I have quite a few with the Rogers brand. (May require a magnifying glass to see them.)

At the very least it is a relabeled Philips tube made at the Herleen plant in Holland.

Either way they are very good tubes. They are a little brighter than a Mullard.


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## RiverRatt

Just look for Amperex tubes - that's the brand-name that Philips Holland tubes were sold under. Does the Rogers have two small lines of print near the bottom? The bottom line is the three or four-digit factory/date code. The first digit is probably a Delta, the 2nd number is the year, next is the month code (A=1, B=2, etc.). You can use that info to look for tubes that were made around the same time as the one you have. The Amperex-labeled tubes will sell for more than the same tube relabeled by someone like Rogers, so you can save a few bucks that way.


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## RiverRatt

Sorry Marty... You type faster than I do!


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## MartyStrat54

Hey River.


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## mickeydg5

Rogers branded tubes from what I remember are not cheap either.


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## MartyStrat54

sarmation said:


> Thanks fellas was sorta inspired to write something cause I'd always relied on v1 for tone changes but I'm in the school now that the PI does just as much as all the others.



There are some tube guru's such as Myles Rose that feels the PI tube is more important than V1.

Personally I feel that V1 is the most important and the PI is second. I've never really found an advantage to using a high dollar tone tube for the PI and that is why I basically sell high gain Sylvania's for the PI. They work great and they are cheaper than a Mullard or Telefunken.

The PI definitely affects the dynamics of the amp.


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## MartyStrat54

Hey Mickey, you can relax over here...no Nathan.


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## mickeydg5

I am relaxed. 
Taking antibiotics for an upper respitory infection and drinking boiled custard.

For your sake I hope he does not get into pulling on organ tubes.


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## MartyStrat54

Ha-ha. If he does maybe I'll buy some off of him.


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## RiverRatt

Do any of you watch American Restorations? They did an old Wurlitzer jukebox tonight. They pulled it completely apart, refinished the wood, re-plated the chrome, re-worked the entire mechanism, and it looked like they just pulled the amp and dusted it off! They didn't show much of it but it was pretty old. I could tell the power tubes were RCA 6L6G's. I'll bet they left all the old electrolytic caps.


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## Micky

RiverRatt said:


> Do any of you watch American Restorations? They did an old Wurlitzer jukebox tonight. They pulled it completely apart, refinished the wood, re-plated the chrome, re-worked the entire mechanism, and it looked like they just pulled the amp and dusted it off! They didn't show much of it but it was pretty old. I could tell the power tubes were RCA 6L6G's. I'll bet they left all the old electrolytic caps.


I wish they had spent more time on the amp, rather than the other crap...
Cool show though.
Hope all is well Alan!


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## RiverRatt

Thanks Micky. I've got a lot happening right now.


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## RiverRatt

I found an old Amperex mC1 long plate the other day that tested a couple of ticks below good. I put it in the Tweaker head and it sounds incredible! It's ancient - it doesn't have a crimped top and the "12AX7" is in an RCA-style octagon. I have been thoroughly impressed by the Amperex and Mullard mC1 long plates. They have a tone that none of the short plates can touch.


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## Remedylane

Curious as to which production pre amp tubes are both gainy and quiet? Any suggestions??


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## mkspriggs

Hey guys ive done my best going throught this 546 pages trying to search for my answers lol. im trying to identify some tubes and what they are best for. Currently im running all JJ on preamp but the guys at maximus told me it would be better to atleast switch up v1 and v2, so looking through my jcm 800 i dont use and a few spares i have found i also have 3 GT12AX7R, and a few that are hard to identify, one is white lettering that only says 12AX7A made in Holland, one that is hard to read green writing JAN 12 rest hard to read and bottoms says phillips i believe then two more with all writing rubbed off but a white s on both of them lol. I know not alot of help but let me know if anyone of them sounds familiar and what there good with


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## sarmation

Put the holland one in the PI they have a really nice rolled of top end if its the one I think it is.JJ in the v2 as they have a nice effect on the tone stack.Then try the other ones in V1


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## sarmation

Remedylane said:


> Curious as to which production pre amp tubes are both gainy and quiet? Any suggestions??




Gold lions come to mind.They are a real smooth gain sound with a low noise floor.


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## RiverRatt

Gainy and quiet don't always go together. I like Chinese Shuguangs or maybe a JJ. If you shop around a little you might find an old Tungsram for not a lot more than CP tubes. They are my favorite high-gainer.


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## Lowlife

Hey Sarmation for PI I've rolled my way to a blackplate Raytheon 12BZ7...give it, or something similar, a shot at some point.


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## sarmation

Lowlife said:


> Hey Sarmation for PI I've rolled my way to a blackplate Raytheon 12BZ7...give it, or something similar, a shot at some point.



I don't have any of those.I will keep my eyes open for one.I just wouldn't wanna run more then 1 at a time with the double draw on the heater.What did it do to your tone feel ect that you like.


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## MartyStrat54

sarmation said:


> Gold lions come to mind.They are a real smooth gain sound with a low noise floor.



Which Gold Lion 12AX7? The gold pin is Russian made and the plain pin is Chinese.

The plain pin is the same as a TAD 7025S and Preferred Series 7025. This tube is quickly becoming a favorite to relabel. 

I would have never thought that New Sensor would start selling a Chinese Shuguang made tube.

Again, if you want to try this tube, the cheapest seller is Ruby. Their part number is the 12AX7AC5 HG+, for around $20.


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## MartyStrat54

Shuguang's competitor. Psvane.

Who is Psvane? | Psvane & Shuguang Treasure Audio Tubes, Caps and Amps


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## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Shuguang's competitor. Psvane.
> 
> Who is Psvane? | Psvane & Shuguang Treasure Audio Tubes, Caps and Amps




Ooooohh, now the prospect of decent 300B's is an exciting one.
Perhaps I might build me a valve preamp in anticipation...


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## Steve Naples

Very cool news.

I have been seeing a lot of 6CA7s lately, is that a direct replacement for EL34s? What is the pro/cons of it?


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## johnfv

Steve Naples said:


> ...I have been seeing a lot of 6CA7s lately, is that a direct replacement for EL34s? What is the pro/cons of it?


This might be a better discussion for the power tube thread but back in the day the 6CA7 was the American version of the British EL34. Of course they're all made in Eastern Europe or China now.  To generalize, they look and sound a little more like a 6L6, tighter in the low end and crisp in the top. The old GE 6CA7 is legendary (I liked them a lot). I've also tried the current EH and like it. The TAD EL34 is my favorite CP EL34 tube, the EH 6CA7 might be my 2nd favorite. Tell us what kind of tones you're going for and we can offer better advice.


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## Steve Naples

Sounds good, I'll look around for some and try it out.

Thanks


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## RiverRatt

John, have you ever tried a pair of old 6L6GB's in your Tweaker head? I had to mix & match. I have a Sylvania and a GE. They have a tighter bottom end like you were talking about with the GC's but they have a little more compression and growl. They are good for getting a tweed Deluxe tone on the Fender setting. They have a better mid presence than the GC's too.


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## Lowlife

sarmation said:


> I don't have any of those.I will keep my eyes open for one.I just wouldn't wanna run more then 1 at a time with the double draw on the heater.What did it do to your tone feel ect that you like.



Good question...its a really unbalanced tube, so it just sounded very very gritty filthy and great to my ears


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## RiverRatt

Sarmation, I had a fairly large collection of 12BZ7's but I'm not sure how many I could put my hands on at the moment. I am kinda well not kinda but actually living with my folks right now. They don't sell worth a damn on eBay either. If I can find them, I'll send you one to try if you can cover the postage.


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## johnfv

RiverRatt said:


> John, have you ever tried a pair of old 6L6GB's in your Tweaker head? I had to mix & match. I have a Sylvania and a GE. They have a tighter bottom end like you were talking about with the GC's but they have a little more compression and growl. They are good for getting a tweed Deluxe tone on the Fender setting. They have a better mid presence than the GC's too.


I've been so happy with the 6P3S in the Tweaker that I've not touched it. I even put the back grill back on


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## Chas_W

I am up to page 380. Just saying.......


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## MartyStrat54

I took a look, October 2011. I was still living up by KC. Seems like ages ago.


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## MartyStrat54

You will notice that we have had some interesting members come and go. I miss some of them guys.


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## Chas_W

Yeah I seen that. I have looked at very few recent posts but going back just a few pages since I joined it looks like just you and rat are still here from the time warp I am in currently.


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah and SolarBurn is still around. Some of the newer guys have actually been here 2 to 3 years already.


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## jon1917

Doing my bit for the planet this morning, quick visit to the recycling centre. Anyway, had a quick scan round the electronics bins, as you do, and spotted an old radiogram stood up in the corner.
Turns out it is Russian made and holds a lot of valves. To the point, and after a quick bit of interwebbing, i have 3 6H2N valves which apparently may or may not be 12ax7 equivelants and 3 6N14N valves which may or may not be EL84 equivelants. Has anyone any idea if this is the case. 
I have a 20W PA head and a 4500 Dual Reverb so can make use of them, but would prefer to find out if they are ok to use here, rather than plug them in and see.


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## MartyStrat54

The 6H2N is a sub for a 6CC41. It is a low noise dual triode. You could do the wiring change below and give them a try. They are considered a sub for a 12AX7.

The 6N2P is another tube equivalent to a 12AX7. Here is the required heater wiring change for either tube to be used as a 12AX7 sub. 






The 6N14N is a drop in sub of an EL84. It is more like a 7189 which is a more rugged version of an EL84.


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## jon1917

Jeez, that's good service. Thankyou Marty. I'll let you know tomorrow how it goes. Apparently i have to put up some shelves first.


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## Steve Naples

Hey Marty, can you get me some preamp tubes for a 1959 Reissue? It is a 2007 model. I would like to get it to sound like the older 1959s and I know you what NOS tubes would work best in it.


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## MartyStrat54

I don't follow you. Elaborate.


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## mickeydg5

Edited post.

Woops, wrong 1959 reissue.


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## Steve Naples

I am looking to get some preamp tubes to make it sound more like an older Plexi than a new one.  Basically some good NOS tubes for the preamp, since it only has two preamp and one PI, I wanted to get the best tone from what I do have.

It's a head Mickey, I just have a MG412 right now, sounds good, also my 4212 is a 2x12 with G12-65s that I sometimes use as a cab.


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## mickeydg5

Steve Naples said:


> I am looking to get some preamp tubes to make it sound more like an older Plexi than a new one.  Basically some good NOS tubes for the preamp, since it only has two preamp and one PI, I wanted to get the best tone from what I do have.
> 
> It's a head Mickey, I just have a MG412 right now, sounds good, also my 4212 is a 2x12 with G12-65s that I sometimes use as a cab.


Sorry I went off on a tangent. I was thinking of another amplifier.

You need a long plate Mullard, a couple Amperex to try , maybe a nice Sylvania in the PI and a set of Mullard XF2's in the power stage or even some MOV KT77's if extra scratch is available.

Ching ching. That will be $400, minimum down, please.


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## MartyStrat54

I don't think preamp tubes are going to make your reissue sound like an original. Good preamp tubes make an amp sound better, but for me to say they would make your amp sound like an original 59 is something I can't do.


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## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Ching ching. That will be $400 please.



If you know where I can buy a matched quad of xF2 Mullard's for $400, please give me the info right now.

A long plate Mullard starts at around $125 for an mC1.


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## Steve Naples

I agree, wrong choice of words. . I just want to make it sound the best I can make it.


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## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> If you know where I can buy a matched quad of xF2 Mullard's for $400, please give me the info right now.
> 
> A long plate Mullard starts at around $125 for an mC1.


I did not specify that. 

I see longs for less sometimes.

I should have noted "minimum". Will do.


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## MartyStrat54

Sure, used long plates are around $85+ if they still test good.


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## mickeydg5

That is true. They have to be verified.

Anyway can Steve get close to a NOS setup with the right current tubes.
Yes, no, maybe? Or is old stock the way to go?


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## MartyStrat54

Well my concern is the PT and the OT of the original versus the reissue and the quality of the resistors and caps of the old versus new.


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## mickeydg5

You are right Marty. The components will not color the sound in the same manner between the two amplifiers. But tubes are still a percentage of the overall. Think of a nice low noise, smooth, warm, balanced yet mean tone type of sound. I think that is what he is trying to achieve.

At least I believe that is what most associate with the 69 plexi 1959.


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## Steve Naples

That is a good point, about the PT and OT, as well as the components. I guess it will be a fun ride to find that sweet tone spot on the new one. 

I would say a good couple of tubes from Marty should get me started to finding out what these new ones are made of.


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## Steve Naples

mickeydg5 said:


> You are right Marty. The components will not color the sound in the same manner between the two amplifiers. But tubes are still a percentage of the overall. Think of a nice low noise, smooth, warm, balanced yet mean tone type of sound. I think that is what he is trying to achieve.
> 
> At least I believe that is what most associate with the 69 plexi 1959.



That's pretty much what I would like to achieve.


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## MartyStrat54

My latest acquisition. 40 Raytheon Black Plates.


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## mickeydg5

Nice haul!


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## MartyStrat54

Yeah all Baldwin labeled. Those were the best one's. 

If these all came out of one organ...that was a big sucker.

Good year too. 1960.

They made the BP's from 1959 to 1964.


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## Steve Naples

Marty, so would one of those be good in the 1959SLP? What do you recommend for V1, 2 and 3?


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## rockgod212

just scored some brimar ecc83's cant wait to try them in my jmp100 clone, might have some amperex/ mullards coming also. cant wait.


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## MartyStrat54

The Brimar's are dandy. Nothing wrong with the Amperex or Mullards either. 

Are these tested tubes? Do you know what quality they are?


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## rockgod212

yep all tested, all NOS...........got some RCA's coming too


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## MartyStrat54

Sounds like you are all set. I cringe when I read that someone has a nice amp and they put JJ's or Sovteks in it and they wonder why it sounds like cardboard.


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## rockgod212

I think that all depends on the amp really, I do like the jj ecc83's that are currently in my #36 amp clone as compared to some of the other 12ax7's ive tried, but I decided to try some NOS pre's as I had a bit of xtra money, but im sure its well worth the investment for the NOS pre's, as the tungsol 6550's wernt cheap either. all this is going with my newly acquired 1981 cab with original g12 80's (bass cones).....oh the GAS pains keep coming.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Sounds like you are all set. I cringe when I read that someone has a nice amp and they put JJ's or Sovteks in it and they wonder why it sounds like cardboard.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well JJ's are too dark sounding for my tastes and if I have a bright amp I will use an RFT instead of a JJ to darken it. JJ's tend to add hiss when the gain is cranked up. They are not a very quiet tube, although they sell them as such.

One thing you will notice right away about vintage preamp tubes is how much quieter they are, especially when the amp is dialed in on a clean tone.


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## Lowlife

I tend to use JJ's only in positions where their impact on the tone is minimal...for that I love them


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## EndGame00

I use JJ on the DSL to slighty darken it.. for my Fargen, a cheap Shuguang to add bite.


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## rockgod212

yeah, I just like the rounded tone the JJ's have, I don't like high gain type 
12ax7's.

I got 2 each of the brimar ecc83's, RCA's, and amperex mullard the "fisher pair" coming. im new to NOS tubes, so I cant wait to try them.


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## gameshound

I was trying to get these too!!!!
DAMNATION....got to beat that competition!!!

Good job marty


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## MartyStrat54

Mark. I've been expecting you to call me for like a month. I sent you at least four emails.


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## RiverRatt

Marty, we need to talk tubes. Shoot me a price on a couple of the Raytheons.

I hit a music store a couple of towns away and picked up a GE long plate 7025, a Sylvania 7025, a Toshiba 12AX7 and a Matsushita 12AU7 that I didn't look at closely enough. When I got home and started checking them out I discovered that I had owned the GE and Toshiba before. They still had my test scores written on them. $5 each wasn't bad though.


----------



## Grogshla

I currently use the JJ E34L power amp tubes in my marshall JCM2000 dsl. Would 3x Ecc83 JJ tubes be a good choice in the preamp section? I don't mind the stock preamp tubes but would just like a better quality tube in there for reliability. If it can help the detail and richness of the tone then awesome!
Thoughts? Should I go for it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

IMO I would avoid putting JJ's in all four slots. You can use the JJ's in V3 and V4. For V1 and V2 I recommend either two Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ tubes ($20) or a AC5 HG+ in V1 and a Mullard RI in V2. This will make you a lot more happier than all JJ's.


----------



## Grogshla

there are 4 preamp tubes?


----------



## Grogshla

cool thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

V1 is under a silver metal cover. You have to twist the cover until the tabs line up with the slots and the cover will come off. The cover is to prevent stray RF signals.


----------



## Hollowbody

This is crazy and way off subject but all these years on the forum and I just now find out Marty is really close to me (geographically).


----------



## Hollowbody

Well, 

"now in Muskogee"

...anyways.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I lived up by Kansas City until 2012 and moved to Muskogee in July 2012. 

I've seen your location before and I didn't know what was going on since you mention North Texas and Tulsa both.


----------



## johnfv

Just realized I was at 2999 posts (now 3000). I know that's nothing compared to many of you but it did make me think back to 2010 when I came here wondering what I could do to get my 1959T looking a little more original. I thought I was experienced at the time but I have learned SO MUCH MORE. Thanks gents, I still think this is one of the best places on the interweb for guys that are serious about good tone. Thanks to the all you MFers!


----------



## Micky

Congrats John!


----------



## SG~GUY

MartyStrat54 said:


> My latest acquisition. 40 Raytheon Black Plates.


----------



## Hollowbody

MartyStrat54 said:


> I lived up by Kansas City until 2012 and moved to Muskogee in July 2012.
> 
> I've seen your location before and I didn't know what was going on since you mention North Texas and Tulsa both.



I was working at a studio north of Dallas for a while. I need to change that on my forum profile. I'm in T town now. 

Maybe this summer you can set me straight on some tube stuff. I'm certain it would be worth my time and money to draw from your expertise.

...I hibernate all winter.


----------



## rockgod212

so I just got these amperex great Britain ecc83's and they are marked 
I63 B4D3 and B4B3, any info on these? 

are these the mullard Blackburn's relabeled amperex?


----------



## SG~GUY

anyone know what tubes are in my 2203KK?

(4)KT88's-there short and stubby like SOVTEKS,..but aint,..(i have a quad)
(3) ecc83's

of course all branded MARSHALL,....one of the stock KT88's had a bad heater right out of the box,,,


----------



## MartyStrat54

rockgod212 said:


> so I just got these amperex great Britain ecc83's and they are marked
> I63 B4D3 and B4B3, any info on these?
> 
> are these the mullard Blackburn's relabeled amperex?



Yes those are I63 Blackburn Mullards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

SG~GUY said:


> anyone know what tubes are in my 2203KK?
> 
> (4)KT88's-there short and stubby like SOVTEKS,..but aint,..(i have a quad)
> (3) ecc83's
> 
> of course all branded MARSHALL,....one of the stock KT88's had a bad heater right out of the box,,,



The KT88's are probably Shuguang's.

Can you post the VLVE number on the tubes?


----------



## rockgod212

cool, any idea what year possibly?


MartyStrat54 said:


> Yes those are I63 Blackburn Mullards.


----------



## RiverRatt

Those Mullards are 1964. The four-digit code is read as (factory)(year)(month)(week). B=Blackburn, 4=1964, D=April and 3=3rd week. There are some exceptions, but most Philips companies followed this format from around 1960 onward. The 3 digit factory codes work the same way, they just didn't use the week code. These were used primarily in the 1950's but again there are exceptions. Google "Philips Factory Codes" and look for a PDF file; download it and read it - it has about all the info you'll need for ID'ing Philips tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-What do you know about the Mullard 1022 code? I've always associated it with later Japanese production tubes, such as IEC Mullards, as these tubes do not have any factory production codes.

However, I have seen the 1022 code on earlier Mullards, such as pre-70's production and they are of course demanding a $$$ price.

When did the Japanese start making the Mullard's (using Mullard equipment)?

Of course many of the Japanese tubes were marked, "Made in Gt. Britain."

I have about a dozen 1022 Mullard's. I'm assuming they are close to an I65 in design.

What do you know about this?


----------



## RiverRatt

I've seen the 1022 code on several Mullards, and IIRC every one of them had a Blackburn date code as well. Those last xf2 EL34's I pulled from the Dynaco ST-70 had the 1022 code and they were definitely the real deal. I did some reading and apparently the 1022 code showed up on tubes from the 1950's onward. Some people have speculated that it was used on tubes sold outside of the UK/Europe but I have no idea if that is correct. 1022 is also the EIA code for Fisher but I don't see how there could be a connection. A real Blackburn Mullard will have the type code and Blackburn date code whether of not it has the 1022 code. Just a guess, but to me the theory that it's a code for a North American distributor makes sense.


----------



## Riffraff

I bought 3 of these from a guy I buy tubes from once in a while. He tests everything he sells and usually doesn't sell tubes that don't test strong as new. He hoards those and then blows them out for a couple bucks each. I got these for the going rate of a CP tube so it was definitely worth a shot. He said they are really nice sounding tubes and thinks they are actually RCA black plates. I'm not sure about his RCA theory, the tops of the plates where they pass through the mica look a little different to me. The RCA's kind of come to a point and these are squared off but I'm not as knowledgeable about that stuff as you guys. They are Ratheon branded but we all know that doesn't mean much. The octagon type marking on the side typically means RCA but I don't put 100% faith in that alone because Tung-Sol sometimes did that too. They show "280" in print which ID's them as Ratheon but does that mean they actually made them? What's the verdict?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those are Raytheon's. RCA black plates are not shiny. The RCA's plates have a powder coat appearance with a D getter.

The "280" code verifies they are Raytheon's.


----------



## Riffraff

That's what I thought. I see you got a big 'ol pile of them. Have you tried any yet?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here's a quick rundown on them. The Raytheon Black Plate is affectionately known as the "American Telefunken." Just like the Telefunken, it is a pretty neutral sounding tube. This is why I use the Raytheon BP as a V2 tube as it provides more gain working in conjunction with the V1 tube without adding any tonal coloration. This allows me to sell a set of tubes such as a Mullard in V1 and a BP in V2. 80 percent of the time when I sell a set of tubes the customer is getting a BP.

As I said, they are a pretty neutral tube which makes them popular for V1 in hifi preamps. By themselves they make an amp smoother sounding. There are a few amps where I use the BP as a V1 tube. The JCM 900DR is one of them.

If you have a Mullard, Amperex, Valvo, or some other premium European tube, put it in V1 and a BP in V2.

Also, I'm not a real big fan of the RCA Black Plate. I almost bought a lot of 25 of them, but the price got too high for what they are. Their test scores were about 80 percent of new. The RCA BP adds more coloration than the Raytheon BP.

I am a very small vendor and I have fine tuned my inventory with the tubes I need to fill certain playing styles for my customers. I really don't sell many USA tubes for V1. I do use the Sylvania GP in V1 for modern metal. With this in mind, I keep a big inventory of the Raytheon BP's.


----------



## Riffraff

Excellent info Marty. Thanks for the V2 tip, I'll give that a try. I've got all US tubes in my amps. At least I've got some good Sylvania glass to try them with. I guess I really need to get my hands on a Mullard.


----------



## Marshall Art




----------



## johnfv

*JVM410H preamp tube positions*

Anyone here done tube rolling in the JVM410? I've decided to keep the Satriani restock I got from MF and was thinking about playing around a bit. It looks like there are some discussions about positions at JVM Forum but thought I would ask the experts here first. I searched a bit but didn't come up with much.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Is the Satriani tube layout the same as the 210? I've only sold a few sets for the JVM amps and that was quite a while ago. 

V1-V4 = EL34 Power Tubes
V5 = Phase Shifter
V6-V9 = ECC0083 Preamp Tubes

GAIN STAGES

CLEAN - Green : V6:A, V7:B

CRUNCH - Orange : V6:A, V7:A Gain Off, V7:B
CRUNCH - Red : V6:A, V7:A Gain On, V7:B

OD - Green : V6:A, V7:A Gain On, V7:B
OD - Orange : V6:A, V6:B, V7:A Gain Off, V7:B
OD - Red : V6:A, V6:B, V7:A Gain On, V7:B

V8:A is the Cathode Follower before the Tone Stacks.
V8:B is the Cathode Follower after the Tone Stacks but before the Parallel Loop (the one with the +4db/-10db switch).
V9:A is the Loop Recovery mixer.
V9:B is the Reverb Mixer.

The Power Amp Series Loop comes after the Reverb Mixer stage.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Art said:


>



Nice tubes! It took me an embarrassingly long time to discover that the logo on those tubes is actually for Voice of Music and not some weird Mullard logo. VoM used Mullard tubes almost exclusively and really turned out some exceent audio gear.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan-Did you notice these have the 1022 code, but say made in Gt. Britain and appear to have Mullard codes. I can't tell if they are Blackburn codes.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, these are early I61's. They have three-digit Blackburn codes from 1959 and 1960. I don't ever remember seeing a 1959 I61 before. The 1022 code on VoM Mullards reinforces the theory that it's an export code as Voice of Music was a USA corporation.


----------



## RiverRatt

FWIW, the "033" code with the 1022 would indicate the 33rd week of 1960 which is a pretty close match with the Blackburn date code.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm starting to think if they say 1022 with "Made in Gt. Britain" they are British made for US export. 

If they say 1022 with an IEC label, they are probably Japanese.


----------



## Marshall Art

RiverRatt said:


> Nice tubes! It took me an embarrassingly long time to discover that the logo on those tubes is actually for Voice of Music and not some weird Mullard logo. VoM used Mullard tubes almost exclusively and really turned out some exceent audio gear.



Def my fav for the V1 in a Marshall. They came out of a VOM reel to reel 2 track recorder. Believe it or not I only paid $20 for it. There were 5 Mullard ecc83's, a Bugle Boy, a blackplate RCA 6V6GT and a few other various USA made tubes. Plus almost enough parts to build two small class A amps. Not too shabby for short money.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan-Did you notice these have the 1022 code, but say made in Gt. Britain and appear to have Mullard codes. I can't tell if they are Blackburn codes.



I was under the impression that the "B" in the BOC, BOM, B9I etc. was the code for the Blackburn facility.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Oh those are real Mullards that you have. I had brought up something with Alan a short while ago about the 1022 code. That code can be found on Japanese Mullards (with the IEC brand). They can also say made in Gt. Britain on them, but are actually Japanese made.

I told Alan I have seen the 1022 code on early Mullards and Alan figured it was used as an export code mainly for the USA.


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Is the Satriani tube layout the same as the 210?...


Thanks Marty. The Satriani is a 410 (so 4 channels) and has gates instead of reverb. I pulled this from JVM Forum, apparently came from Santiago originally. It uses a more "traditional" numbering scheme. I may try a couple of things while I have it out of the head case (had to swap the software chip with an updated version from Marshall - I'll post details on that soon). V1 seems a good candidate and is on in all modes:

V1 (under the metal can), + V2 gain stages, V1A, V2B are used in all modes, the rest is switched in/out depending on the mode.
V3A: tone control buffer.
V3B: channel mixer/ parallel loop send
V4A: FX mix
V4B: Reverb Mix
V5: Phase splitter. (the small tube next to and in line with the big power tubes)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I knew the 410 was a four channel. I didn't know if the preamp layout was the same as a 210. I also know that there are some circuitry differences between the 410H and the JS.

V1 and V2 look like the tone tubes in the JS.

So the 410 doesn't have a cathode follower circuit?


----------



## johnfv

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I knew the 410 was a four channel. I didn't know if the preamp layout was the same as a 210. I also know that there are some circuitry differences between the 410H and the JS.
> 
> So V1 and V2 look like the tone tubes in the JS.
> 
> So the 410 doesn't have a cathode follower circuit?


From what I've seen in other posts, what is labeled as V3 above is the cathode follower. EDIT: labeled that way on the block diagram. The JS must vary a little from this since it has no reverb. Funny that V5 is labeled Phase SHIFTER 
http://jvmforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1681


----------



## MartyStrat54

I figured it would have to be V3. This arrangement is the same as the 210 (V8), which is a cathode follower before and after the tone stacks.


----------



## mickeydg5

There are three cathode followers in both the 205/210 and 410 amplifier types. Both halves of V8 and one half of V9 are cathode followers.

I believe that corresponds to Johnfv's V3 and V4 numbering.


----------



## damienbeale

What's the verdict on these then boys?

Watford are claiming old Chinese, but I have seen late Tesla/crossover early JJ's that look kinda similar. The thing I'm struggling with is the crappy pic.
ECC83/12AX7A-UNITED ELECTRONICS


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> There are three cathode followers in both the 205/210 and 410 amplifier types. Both halves of V8 and one half of V9 are cathode followers.
> 
> I believe that corresponds to Johnfv's V3 and V4 numbering.



I recall hearing that from Big Dooley now that you mention it Mickey.

Why don't they show the third CF on that flow chart?


----------



## MartyStrat54

damienbeale said:


> What's the verdict on these then boys?
> 
> Watford are claiming old Chinese, but I have seen late Tesla/crossover early JJ's that look kinda similar. The thing I'm struggling with is the crappy pic.
> ECC83/12AX7A-UNITED ELECTRONICS



It is hard to tell from that one picture. That tube has a heavy getter flash which you don't see on most Chinese tubes. 

Those aren't Tesla's. Tesla's have a double getter support.

If that is Chinese, they were made before the Chinese went with their common internal construction that is found in the Shuguang produced tubes.

Then you would have to wonder how good an early made Chinese tube is?


----------



## Marshall Art

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm starting to think if they say 1022 with "Made in Gt. Britain" they are British made for US export.
> 
> If they say 1022 with an IEC label, they are probably Japanese.



Do you have one of these Jap made tubes that say made in Great Britain? I've never seen one and would love a pic if it's not too much trouble.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Imagine what the prices were like in 1957!



> In 1963 Allied in Chicago was selling individual Mullard 7025 for $1.35 (yes, you could order by brand!); in comparison RCA 12AX7A was $1.28 as was Dutch Bugle Boy ECC83 (yes, listed as that); In the Mullard Master 10M Series you could order either 12AX7 or 12AX7A or ECC83 at your preference each for $2.20 (now, maybe these were all the same but they're not only listed separately but each has a separate stock number to be noted on the order) or Mullard 10M 7025 @ $2.35. If your preference ran to Genalex B759s, these were available for $3.00 even.
> 
> Just for fun additional comparisons, Mullard Xf2 EL34 was $2.90 and Mullard GZ34 was $2.10. As I've noted before, RCA 12AY7 was $2.38 compared to their 12AX7 at $1.28, AY7s were always high-priced audio-intended tubes. Mullard EL37s were $3.24. Gold Lions: KT66 for $4.50; KT77 for $5.50; KT88 for then-whopping $6.95. Compared to the Gold Lion branding, Mullard-branded KT66s were still $3.68 a couple years later in '66 price list. 1963 T-S 6550 ran $4.30, and T-S 5881 was bracing $3.50, way more than Mullard EL34 or blackplate RCA 6L6GC which latter was only $2.18. For AC30 fans, Bugle Boy EL84s were cheap at $1.30, while 10M Mullard version like 10M 12AX7 was much higher at $2.15. Most of these power tubes were available then as matched pairs for slightly more than double the singles price, and all of the RCAs showed discounting approximately 40% from these prices if you ordered 50 or more of a given type!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Marshall Art said:


> Do you have one of these Jap made tubes that say made in Great Britain? I've never seen one and would love a pic if it's not too much trouble.











IEC was an east coast American company that bought the Mullard branding rights. They put the Mullard name on a lot of tubes that weren't Mullards. This sort of activity was taking place throughout the tube industry. It got really bad in 1974. That is the year RCA stopped manufacturing their tubes. As I said in an earlier post, this was a bad decision on the part of RCA as the demand for tubes would be fairly strong for the next 5 or 6 years.

Many companies that stopped manufacturing were forced to buy foreign tubes from India (BEL), Yugosalvia (Ei), Japan (Matsushita, Toshiba and NEC) and East Germany (RFT) and there were others besides these.


----------



## Marshall Art

That's a pretty cool pic and def not something you see everyday. Do those tubes sound decent? As in last longer and no hiss etc.


----------



## johnfv

mickeydg5 said:


> There are three cathode followers in both the 205/210 and 410 amplifier types. Both halves of V8 and one half of V9 are cathode followers.
> 
> I believe that corresponds to Johnfv's V3 and V4 numbering.


Interesting, and thanks for posting. So perhaps the reverb mixing also is a cathode follower? One of these days I need to read up on circuits so I can better understand the implications of "cathode follower" but I have learned enough here to know it can push the tubes harder and we should not swap certain (non 12AX7) types there. This Satriani head sounds pretty damn good with the stock tubes and Marshall sent me a new chip that fixes the MIDI issues I was having. I'm totally digging it now, hope to find time to roll a few in V1 and V2. Thanks again for the info gents!


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> It is hard to tell from that one picture. That tube has a heavy getter flash which you don't see on most Chinese tubes.
> 
> Those aren't Tesla's. Tesla's have a double getter support.
> 
> If that is Chinese, they were made before the Chinese went with their common internal construction that is found in the Shuguang produced tubes.
> 
> Then you would have to wonder how good an early made Chinese tube is?



It was the flash that caught me. But the crossover Tesla's were very different to the classic Tesla's. I don't have any of these to compare to though. I'm not buying one to find out what it is either, since those prices are excluding VAT.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marshall Art said:


> Def my fav for the V1 in a Marshall. They came out of a VOM reel to reel 2 track recorder. Believe it or not I only paid $20 for it. There were 5 Mullard ecc83's, a Bugle Boy, a blackplate RCA 6V6GT and a few other various USA made tubes. Plus almost enough parts to build two small class A amps. Not too shabby for short money.
> 
> 
> 
> I was under the impression that the "B" in the BOC, BOM, B9I etc. was the code for the Blackburn facility.



The B9I code is the one that surprised me. So far all the B9 codes I've seen have been on mC1 long plate Mullards. It's early enough to make me think there may have been some overlap. 

I love scoring tubes and components from old audio gear. I was at the neighbors and they had an old Motorola console stereo in their den just as furniture. I bit my tongue and kept quiet but I'm going to have to find an excuse to go back. The last Motorola I saw like that had an I61 in it!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just think of all the consoles and other audio gear that were thrown away with good tubes still in the chassis. <sad>


----------



## MartyStrat54

damienbeale said:


> It was the flash that caught me. But the crossover Tesla's were very different to the classic Tesla's. I don't have any of these to compare to though. I'm not buying one to find out what it is either, since those prices are excluding VAT.



Damien-Are you saying that Tesla decided to change their design knowing that they were going out of business? Was this new designed followed through with JJ?

I'll agree that JJ's don't look anything like a vintage Tesla. However, I'll take a Tungsram over a vintage Tesla any day.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I recall hearing that from Big Dooley now that you mention it Mickey.
> 
> Why don't they show the third CF on that flow chart?


Where is the flow chart?

I will have to look it up.


----------



## MartyStrat54

From johnfv:


----------



## mickeydg5

All I see is a *X*.


----------



## Marshall Art

Weird. I can see it.


----------



## mickeydg5

I found it through a link on the previous page.

The other cathode follower would be V4:B on the flow diagram.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks Mickey. I should have stated that the chart was from the previous page.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Damien-Are you saying that Tesla decided to change their design knowing that they were going out of business? Was this new designed followed through with JJ?
> 
> I'll agree that JJ's don't look anything like a vintage Tesla. However, I'll take a Tungsram over a vintage Tesla any day.



Well, I don't know what prompted it, but there are some very weird 90's Tesla's about from the death throes. Of course it is possible that they were JJ's using Tesla silk-screening... 
The earliest JJ's don't look like the mass produced current stuff earlier, but it has been a LONG time since I've had any of these tubes, and I wasn't even remotely tube geeky back then. I was just a mere pup.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have heard all sorts of rumors about the early days of JJ. One was relabeling the tubes as Tesla's. There were also some JJ ECC803 gold pins that were labeled as Telefunkens.


----------



## RiverRatt

The JJ ECC83 is an almost exact copy of the Philips ECC88/6DJ8. I have an Amperex ECC88 that's virtually identical to the JJ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

2 Matched Long Plate Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 MC1 Getter Preamp Valves | eBay

*$750*


----------



## Marshall Art

Holy overpriced valves Bat-Man!


----------



## MartyStrat54

You haven't ever seen the EBAY listings for NIB Telefunken ECC803's have you?

$$$


----------



## Marshall Art

Yeah I've seen 'em. They prob cost $2 when they were made lol. It's amazing how much audiophiles pay for that stuff. I can't believe how much the prices have gone up in the last few years. It's staggering.


----------



## MarshallDog

Martstrat54, whats your opinion on the new re-issue Mullard 12AX7's compared to the real deal vintage ones you posted? Just curious because JJ's and Mullard's are my favorite two tubes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there is nothing similar about a vintage Mullard and the Mullard RI. First, the internal construction is different. The vintage Mullard (short plate version) is more mid focused. The RI has more top end. As far as a CP tube goes, the RI is very popular and most of the guys who try them are happy with them.

Vintage Mullards are popular in Marshall amps because they tame the brightness and add some midrange punch.

I'm not a big fan of JJ 12AX7's, but that's my opinion. JJ's are a dark sounding tube and I think that is why they are popular in bright amps. If I was going to use a JJ it would be in V2, the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower or the PI.


----------



## MarshallDog

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well there is nothing similar about a vintage Mullard and the Mullard RI. First, the internal construction is different. The vintage Mullard (short plate version) is more mid focused. The RI has more top end. As far as a CP tube goes, the RI is very popular and most of the guys who try them are happy with them.
> 
> Vintage Mullards are popular in Marshall amps because they tame the brightness and add some midrange punch.
> 
> I'm not a big fan of JJ 12AX7's, but that's my opinion. JJ's are a dark sounding tube and I think that is why they are popular in bright amps. If I was going to use a JJ it would be in V2, the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower or the PI.



Thanks for the info. Any idea what a set of 4 vintage Mullard 12AX7's would cost if one one could find them???


----------



## MartyStrat54

It depends on which version of Mullard. The more common I61's and I63's are still pricey.

Are you wanting four for an amp? If so, you really only need one or two. Most of the time when I sell someone a set and they want the Mullard sound, I will sell them a Mullard for V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate for V2. If it is a DSL/TSL I use a JAN12AX7WA in V3 and a Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI. However, I have sold sets that used a Mullard in V1 and V2.


----------



## Marshall Art

^^^^ That's what I do with my Marshalls. One Mullard in V1 and the rest I use NOS GE, Zenith or whatever I've got that has good noise floor/headroom etc. This setup has plenty of the thick syrupy Mullard tone we have come to love.


----------



## MarshallDog

MartyStrat54 said:


> It depends on which version of Mullard. The more common I61's and I63's are still pricey.
> 
> Are you wanting four for an amp? If so, you really only need one or two. Most of the time when I sell someone a set and they want the Mullard sound, I will sell them a Mullard for V1 and a Raytheon Black Plate for V2. If it is a DSL/TSL I use a JAN12AX7WA in V3 and a Sylvania Gray Plate for the PI. However, I have sold sets that used a Mullard in V1 and V2.



Whats the difference between the I61's and I63's? Which one do you like better and whats a fair price for one? I do have a few of the JAN12AX7WA's sitting around.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I like the I61's for 60's and 70's classic rock. I use the I63's for hard rock. The I63's are more compressed sounding which works well with hard rock.

In a DSL/TSL you can put an I61 in V1 and an I63 in V2. That is a pretty good set up.

Good strong Mullard I61/I63's go between $40 and $60 each.


----------



## MarshallDog

MartyStrat54 said:


> I like the I61's for 60's and 70's classic rock. I use the I63's for hard rock. The I63's are more compressed sounding which works well with hard rock.
> 
> In a DSL/TSL you can put an I61 in V1 and an I63 in V2. That is a pretty good set up.
> 
> Good strong Mullard I61/I63's go between $40 and $60 each.



Thanks Bud, I'll put some thought into this...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well here's an oddity. 7 and 9 pin vacuum tube pullers.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have heard of them but never seen any. Cool.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah, they use a vacuum to pull out vacuum tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

I noticed the button and the center cup on the inside.


----------



## Chas_W

Marty, I just bought a BK707 from that mawbry in WA. I may need to hit you up on how to use it.  It should be here Friday but I probably won't be able to try it until a my day off on Monday. 

I will finally be able to test my tubes and see how ripped off I been over the years. I will also know what the heck I am rolling when I roll. 

So yeah I have a crap load of tubes to test and likely sell afterwards or perhaps not.

Not to derail this thread but being like 504 pages into it and not wanting to read 200+ of the power amp thread I was wondering what is good NOS EL84 tubes to try and if you have any matched sets of EL84 for sale. I can PM you on that later.

I know this is the marshall forum but I now have a Randall MTS RM20 head with EL84. It has JJs in it now and sound pretty good. I do have Marshall based modules so I guess this fits in.  

That's it for now.

-Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chas. I remember talking to you about this. Did you have the full scale deflection mod done on this tester? (Yes, even tube tester can be modded.)

If not, the 707 tests 12A*7 tubes in the number 8 socket which is the far right socket in the top row. A reading of 22 represents a 65 percent tube. Readings in the high 20's are good tubes and a reading above 30 is getting in NOS territory.

The 707 is a piece of cake to operate for testing any guitar tube. Your tester will probably come with a tube chart. The first thing you do is set the heater voltage. On a 12AX7, you use the 12 volt setting. Then you set the sensitivity control to 85. On the right are a vertical row of test button. The bottom one is for shorts, then the next if for grid emissions. Then you have two other test buttons. On a dual triode tube like a 12AX7 you use both test buttons. On other tubes like an EL34, you just use the first test button.

There is one more button. It is used to switch the tester from the top section to the bottom section. The top section is a transconductance tester and the lower section is an emissions tester. I have only had to use the bottom section a handful of times for non-guitar tubes.

I think you will find it to be an easy tester to use and you bought it from the right guy. It will work right and be accurate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have a really nice pair of Sylvania Black Plate EL84/6BQ5's. If interested, shoot me a PM.


----------



## Chas_W

Marty, thanks for info on the tester. Yeah I told him to do the 12a* mod he mentioned and I also have the SS rectifier in it. I will test with useless China tubes until I figure it out.

Yeah I dig black plates.... I will PM you next. 

Thanks.
-Charlie


----------



## JohnDanese

Hey Guys! Been a while. Last I had a chance to get on here, I had a house fire. Now I am back at the new home. Hope all you guys are well!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I remember that. Good to hear from you again.


----------



## solarburn

JohnDanese said:


> Hey Guys! Been a while. Last I had a chance to get on here, I had a house fire. Now I am back at the new home. Hope all you guys are well!



Hey John good news then. Everything settled in?

Welcome back!


----------



## lordquilton

Just curious,

2 Matched 12AX7 ECC83 Tubes Best I&apos;ve Heard No Kidding for Preamp Amp Low Noise | eBay

Anyone had experience with this seller/these tubes?


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not know the seller but those tubes can be had for $12 average or so.


----------



## MartyStrat54

lordquilton said:


> Just curious,
> 
> 2 Matched 12AX7 ECC83 Tubes Best I&apos;ve Heard No Kidding for Preamp Amp Low Noise | eBay
> 
> Anyone had experience with this seller/these tubes?



Thank you for posting. It is a good thing you did. This is nothing but a rip off. Those are the best tubes he's ever heard, but that doesn't mean they are the best that anyone else has heard.

We have discussed this EBAY ad several times here on this thread as a public notice that this was a scam.


----------



## mickeydg5

That does ring a bell. I had forgotten the discussion.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey that guy has been selling those tubes with that same ad for over 3 years.


----------



## mickeydg5

Well I tend to pass over auctions with crazy prices like that. I don not bother reading. :cool2:


----------



## Chas_W

So the BK707 shows up like 3 days early. It works great and it is easy to use. I only have 2 sub par tubes and I think I got those for free. I guess I have been buying from good sellers on ebay.

I no doubt read this hundreds of pages back but while the 12ax7 and 5751 seem to have the same test settings and parameters the 5751s all test at like 38-46 while the 12ax7 are mostly 28-38. I would have thought the 5751 would test lower than 12ax7. This seems to indicate that while the 5751 is supposed to be lower noise and gain they are higher in gain than my 12ax7.

Time for a refresher now I suppose since I have tester and put all this info to use. 

-Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

Congratulations on being a member of the 707 Club. 

I've always wondered about that too. 12AU7's, 12AT7's etc. all have different sensitivity settings, yet the 5751 has the same setting as the 12AX7. Why? I don't know.

Chas-I am going to do the full deflection mod on my 707 myself. It is pretty simple to do.

When you test a tube in socket #8 that reads 30, what does that tube read in socket #24?


----------



## JohnDanese

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Hey John good news then. Everything settled in?
> 
> Welcome back!


 
Yeah! Back in the Saddle Again! Thanks.


----------



## Chas_W

MartyStrat54 said:


> Congratulations on being a member of the 707 Club.
> 
> I've always wondered about that too. 12AU7's, 12AT7's etc. all have different sensitivity settings, yet the 5751 has the same setting as the 12AX7. Why? I don't know.
> 
> Chas-I am going to do the full deflection mod on my 707 myself. It is pretty simple to do.
> 
> When you test a tube in socket #8 that reads 30, what does that tube read in socket #24?



Yeah those other tubes had different settings and results compared to 12ax7.

I will let you know later tonight on the full scale. Was just heading out to Castles and Coaster for putt putt and pinball...


----------



## mickeydg5

Chas_W said:


> So the BK707 shows up like 3 days early. It works great and it is easy to use. I only have 2 sub par tubes and I think I got those for free. I guess I have been buying from good sellers on ebay.
> 
> I no doubt read this hundreds of pages back but while the 12ax7 and 5751 seem to have the same test settings and parameters the 5751s all test at like 38-46 while the 12ax7 are mostly 28-38. I would have thought the 5751 would test lower than 12ax7. This seems to indicate that while the 5751 is supposed to be lower noise and gain they are higher in gain than my 12ax7.
> 
> Time for a refresher now I suppose since I have tester and put all this info to use.
> 
> -Charlie


That is normal for that tester.
12AX7 and 5751 have very similar characteristics and if set properly will exhibit very similar test scores. That is why tester manufacturers gave them the same settings. The problem lies in the fact that those tester voltages are not exact; you do not have a full fledged laboratory tester. The 5751 has a steeper curve for plate current with relation to control grid voltage. The control grid voltage is very critical. Most often 5751 tubes will test higher relative to 12AX7 type tubes due to this. You can see that in your test scores. It does not mean that your 5751 are very strong compared to 12AX7; it is the tester.

So in a way I guess I am saying that if 5751 tubes generally test 28% higher on your tester then that minimum of 22 should actually be more like 27 or 28.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the B and K manual still states that anything above 22 (65 percent) is a good tube for 5751's, same as a 12AX7.

Mickey, testers such as the 707 and the TV-7's use a stronger control grid voltage, therefore the tester cannot do a full scale deflection.

There is a mod on the 707 where you use the #24 socket and a low control grid bias is supplied from socket #6. Socket #8 is for the 12A*7 tubes and a pair of jumper wires goes from this socket to socket #24. This allows for full scale deflection. Here in a few days I am going to do the mod.

(Now I wish I hadn't given Lane Sparber and Joey all of my electronics repair material. I still have a couple of good soldering irons and a controlled soldering station. I'm going to have to scrape up some small gauge wire to do this mod.)


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen the B&K707 manual and understand what it is dictating.
The problem is if your tester is not at a specific voltage set then the readings will be off accordingly. The voltage set and transconductance of the 12AX7 and 5751 match at a small window. Once you deviate from those voltages the two tubes no longer match close enough to use the same "dial settings" or control voltages on the tester.

I do not know or have read about this full scale deflection modification for that tester. Where is the information so that I may look at it to figure what is being done.

My point is that when using or testing 5751 the bais needs to be bumped more negative, like .3 volts or so, with reference to plate voltage to get an accurate reading. Maybe the modification is doing the same thing.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I don't know if there ever was an authorized B and K bulletin approving this mod. Someone a long time ago realized that socket #24 was a rarely used socket. It was for a nine pin TV rectifier. All that was hooked up to the socket was the heater wires.

Here is the mod.

Socket #24, put pins 3 and 8 to ground. Connect pins 1 and 6 on socket #24 to pins 1 and 6 on socket #8. Connect pins 2 and 7 on socket #24 to pin 1 on socket #6. (This provides the low bias signal.)

Socket #8 is the normal 12A*7 socket that has a max input signal being applied.

Socket #6 is for 6AV6's.

Socket #24 is for 1X2(A)'s.


----------



## Chas_W

A 12ax7 measuring 30/30 at standard setting 85 sensitivity in socket 8 reads 85/85 full scale in socket 24 at sensitivity of 87 as per instructions. With 85 sensitivity in socket 24 I get 80/80. I hope this info helps. 

I tested my JJ/Tesla EL84 and got 83/83. The manual doesn't seem to note what that means. I will guess that it means that the tubes are matched and at 83% gain or life or whatever.

-Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks. In my experience, most of the tubes I get are in the 27 to 32 range. This would put them in the 80 to 85+ range.


----------



## mickeydg5

No there is nothing or ever will be something approving this modification to a B&K dynamic mutual conductance tester.

The reasoning is due to the design of the tester.

I see what the modification is doing. I think I can give you something better to work with that requires no modifications, maybe, if you give me a little time and then bear with me on some tube measurements with the tester.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sounds like a plan, Mickey. Thanks for looking into this.


----------



## lordquilton

MartyStrat54 said:


> Thank you for posting. It is a good thing you did. This is nothing but a rip off. Those are the best tubes he's ever heard, but that doesn't mean they are the best that anyone else has heard.
> 
> We have discussed this EBAY ad several times here on this thread as a public notice that this was a scam.



Yeah, after I saw him re-list them a couple of times the sun started to come up, ya know? And now having spent a few evenings trying to absorb stuff from this thread, I pretty much know- if they were really "all that", they would be long gone by now!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Exactly. It's a shame that some unsuspecting people will buy into his advertising bullshit.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty and Chas

Both of you guys can do this to see how your machines compare.

I am asking for both AC and DC voltages at every pin location on the socket to make it easy and get all information. DO NO LOAD ANY TUBES. We just want to see voltages at the sockets.

Jet-Check section:
Setup for a 12AX7. At *socket #8*, place the black (common) probe of the meter at pin #8 location. Measure all pin locations at socket #8 with the appropriate TEST-1 or TEST-2 engaged for proper voltages. TEST-1 is for pins #1 and #2. TEST-2 is for pins #6 and #7. Remember get AC measurements at all pins and then DC at all pins, except of courst pin #8 and pin #9 is not necessary (no connection).

Switch Socket section:
Now engage switch TEST CIRCUIT TRANSFER. Set control switches A=2, B=1, C=12 and D=5.
As before, at socket #8, place the black (common) probe of the meter at pin #8 location. Measure all pin locations at *socket #39* with the appropriate TEST-1 engaged for proper voltages. Remember get AC measurements at all pins and then DC at all pins.
Change control switch D=8.
As before, at socket #8, place the black (common) probe of the meter at pin #8 location. Measure all pin locations at *socket #39* with the appropriate TEST-1 engaged for proper voltages. Remember get AC measurements at all pins and then DC at all pins.

Some of these readings are redundant but I did not want to break it down because the directions would take a whole page.

Get all those voltages for each task and post.

I hope that is not too much to ask. I am looking at a couple of schematics, 700 and 707, and I believe there is actually more in the tester box than what is shown on paper. I am trying to see how things are working between the two sections and if there is another way to test 12AX7 and 5751 types.

Do you guys understand what that modification mentioned is doing? Any questions with it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know on the 12AX7 test the signal is really stout (5V?) and the #24 socket mod uses the low voltage signal (1V?) off of socket #6 (6AU6).

Socket #8 is fine for 12AT7 and 12AU7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-Why is the black (common) on pin #8 (cathode triode #1)?

Before I go too much further (because I am getting unstable readings) here is what socket #8 reads using pin #8 referenced as ground.

Pin #1: 229.4V (Test button #2 engaged)
Pin #2: -86.3V With test button #2 engaged it is -2.58V
Pin #3: -.1 to -.5V
Pin #4: Unstable reading
Pin #5: Unstable reading
Pin #6: 228.8V (Test button #1 engaged)
Pin #7: -86.3V With test button #1 engaged it is -2.58V

Heater question. This tester tests 12AX7 @ 12V for the heaters. Wouldn't this mean that pins #4 and #5 are tied to pin #9? Regardless, any idea why I'm not getting any heater reading?

Does the above info look like what you are after? If so I will conduct the socket #39 reading. I don't understand why I would use pin #8 on socket #8 for ground when testing socket #39?


----------



## SG~GUY

KT88's LVE-00035-15

ECC83's WK 40

thanx for any info












MartyStrat54 said:


> The KT88's are probably Shuguang's.
> 
> Can you post the VLVE number on the tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

If the ECC83 is labeled as a Marshall, it should have a VLVE number on the tube. That's the number I need to ID it. That or some clear, big shots of the tube.

I'm not familiar with the VLVE-00035-15 number for the KT88's.

Does it look like one this one?

Shuguang


----------



## Chas_W

I am clueless and newb.... I should be able to check that stuff tomorrow or Monday. Knowing me it be later today.


----------



## Chas_W

Quick adventure and detour in power tubes. I got the EL84 from Marty. Those black plate Sylvania tubes just look so much cooler and stout than the current production JJ/Testla. 

So the manual says socket 23, heater 6, Sensitivity 68. I get an 80/81 reading and the boxes seem to indicate a 93/94 reading. I wondering why we have discrepancy of 13. The JJ get an 83/83. At any rate I am not too concerned with the readings as we are consistent in the difference regardless of scale.

Here is where things get really different. I suspect that it could be that the RM20 was built and designed around the finest Chinese CP tubage. The bias on RM20 is 15-20 and they were at 17 with the JJ. I have 2 test points however the bias setting is for both tubes as a pair and not individual. Across the 2 test points is also 17.

I put in the Sylvania. The bias is 20/38. I expected them to go up or down a little and be close but this is not the case. Across the 2 test points is like 12.

So at any rate long story short I settled at bias at 11/23. One a little cold the other little hot. 

So this is all about sound in the end. What I notice regardless of bias settings is the Sylvania seem to have a little less bottom end flub and a bit a difference in the mids like perhaps a bit more or just different. In the end not worth fooling with in the first place, but I like screwing with this stuff.

I have no clue what all this means. Just messing with stuff during my day off.

As a point of reference here is the space I am in regarding tones and whatnot. Careful the other songs are louder and full band songs.

Okay well soundcloud became a pita to use.

First song called clambake, just something I came up with today. It was really hard to remember what played like 10 minutes prior.

Okay... giving up for now......


----------



## Chas_W

Trying to fix the linkage... standby. Not so fixed..... 

So yeah no clue what is going on with https://soundcloud.com/wardick/

Here is link to my dropbox. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/52429336/Clambake_1.mp3


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chas. I have no idea why there is such a discrepancy between our 707's. I tested eight of those Sylvania's and they were all in the low 90's except for one that was in the mid 80's.

I was thinking about sending you a USA 12AX7 and have you see what sort of reading you got on your tester and how it compared to mine. I should have done that.

I'm going to recheck them again. I still have four left.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I just checked the tubes again and the test scores were really close. I did notice that just going from 68 to 70 on the sensitivity made about a 5 point difference on the test score, but at 68 I got 84 for a tube I had rated at 85. The other three tested in the low 90's like they should. 

I'm puzzled over this. I have a couple of test tubes that I use to check my tester before I test a batch of tubes. Both of them were right on. 

I just tested 28 12AX7's yesterday and my tester worked as it should.

I'm a little puzzled.


----------



## Chas_W

yeah I wasn't too worried about the discrepancy of 13 as I view it all as a point of reference regardless of scale however you would think that us both have testers from the same guy we would be in a point or two.

I will test again tomorrow in case I was doing some newbie stupidness although I don't think that will be the case.

-Charlie


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the sensitivity control is really touchy. Make sure you are on 68.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey-Why is the black (common) on pin #8 (cathode triode #1)?
> 
> Before I go too much further (because I am getting unstable readings) here is what socket #8 reads using pin #8 referenced as ground.
> 
> Pin #1: 229.4V (Test button #2 engaged)
> Pin #2: -86.3V With test button #2 engaged it is -2.58V
> Pin #3: -.1 to -.5V
> Pin #4: Unstable reading
> Pin #5: Unstable reading
> Pin #6: 228.8V (Test button #1 engaged)
> Pin #7: -86.3V With test button #1 engaged it is -2.58V
> 
> Heater question. This tester tests 12AX7 @ 12V for the heaters. Wouldn't this mean that pins #4 and #5 are tied to pin #9? Regardless, any idea why I'm not getting any heater reading?
> 
> Does the above info look like what you are after? If so I will conduct the socket #39 reading. I don't understand why I would use pin #8 on socket #8 for ground when testing socket #39?


Pin #8 of socket #8 is common ground.
I knew you would get some weird readings but I thought it be best to read both AC and DC on all pins. Pins #4 and #5 are for 12VAC filament. Pin #9 is not used and has no connection. Pin #3 is another common ground.

So far you have what I wanted. Get the rest of the readings and move on to socket #39. 


What about you Chas? I will be able to tell and you will see the differences between the two testers.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey, I will try and do the socket #39 in about a couple of hours or so. 

I wanted to verify that I still use pin #8 of socket #8? Wouldn't pin #8 of socket #39 be common ground as well?

With a test probe on socket #8 and a test probe on socket #39, it is going to be difficult to press the Test 1 and Test 2 buttons. Just saying.

Maybe I can rig up a straightened out paper clip on the end of the black test probe.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey, I will try and do the socket #39 in about a couple of hours or so.
> 
> I wanted to verify that I still use pin #8 of socket #8? Wouldn't pin #8 of socket #39 be common ground as well?
> 
> With a test probe on socket #8 and a test probe on socket #39, it is going to be difficult to press the Test 1 and Test 2 buttons. Just saying.
> 
> Maybe I can rig up a straightened out paper clip on the end of the black test probe.


No!
Use pin #8 of socket #8. It is my common ground reference point. Pin #8 on socket #39 has totaly different connections.

I know everyone has different tools. I have adapters for my probes. In this case I use a needle point, stick it in the socket pin hole and leave it.
Do you have something or can find something similar? A small solid rod or wire that fits in the pin hole snug will work. You can then clamp on to that. There are always work arounds. 

Do not forget the other measurements at socket #8.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have several 7 and 9-pin test sockets. You just plug them in and you can read voltages either with or without a tube in place. Sounds like you guys could use them right now 

A relative let me dig through a few boxes of tubes this week. I ended up with some 6V6's and three 12AX7's. I got a mid-1950's Sylvania short black plate that was too weak to use, a sweet Telefunken ribbed plate that tested above new, and a Raytheon gray plate that tested strong and was labeled "Gibson". Marty, what was the consensus on the Raytheon grays? I know we talked about some that were MIJ but this one is definitely a USA tube. It's identical in every way to the black plates except of course the gray coating.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I don't know what you meant about forgetting the other measurements at socket #8? I thought I had conducted that portion of the testing properly. Yes/No? If it is in reference to AC and DC readings, the meter is on AUTO and will read accordingly. 

Anyway here are the results of socket #39 using pin #8/socket #8 as ground. "D" selector set at 5. Not much to see.

Pin #1: 0
Pin #2: -.4mV
Pin #3: 0
Pin #4: 0
Pin #5: 319V Test #1 and 283V Test #2
Pin #6: 0
Pin #7: 0
Pin #8: 0
Pin #9: 0

Socket #39 with "D" on 8.

Pin #1: 0
Pin #2: -.3mV
Pin #3: 0
Pin #4: 0
Pin #5: 0
Pin #6: 0
Pin #7: 0
Pin #8: 311V Test #1 and 283 Test #2
Pin #9: 0

All pin positions were tested three ways. No test button engaged and with Test 1 and Test 2 engaged. I put down 0 for readings that fluctuated between 0 and very small negative mV readings.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, what was the consensus on the Raytheon grays? I know we talked about some that were MIJ but this one is definitely a USA tube. It's identical in every way to the black plates except of course the gray coating.



Well Raytheon made Gray Plates prior to early 1959. They then made the Black Plates from 1959 to 1964.

I'm not sure what they produced after turning production over to Japan.

Any Raytheon tube that says "Registered" or "Certified" on it is MIJ.

Any Baldwin Gray Plate Raytheons are MIJ. (Light blue labeling.)


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty
I will be looking at your numbers.

What meter did you use, brand and model?

And can you tell me how many schematic sheets are given with the manuals? I only find two on the internet.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Raytheon made Gray Plates prior to early 1959. They then made the Black Plates from 1959 to 1964.
> 
> I'm not sure what they produced after turning production over to Japan.
> 
> Any Raytheon tube that says "Registered" or "Certified" on it is MIJ.
> 
> Any Baldwin Gray Plate Raytheons are MIJ. (Light blue labeling.)



Okay, that makes sense. I assumed the black plates came first but this is an older tube and definitely USA. Other than the Gibson logo, I can just make out the words "Made in the USA by ....... for". Of course the manufacturer's name is obliterated but I'm thinking it said Philco. All kinds of misdirection going on there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Gibson was definitely making tube amps in the 50's. I think I have some pre 59 Raytheon Gray Plates, but I'm not for sure. If I do they are in one of my stash boxes. They are not something I would offer to a customer. Don't get me wrong, they are fine tubes, but I pretty much have refined my tube inventory to reflect my customers needs.

I also meant to say that Matsushita was contracted by Raytheon. I sent one of you guys a real nice slant getter Raytheon "Registered" tube. We both know these are pretty nice sounding V1 tubes.

One of my rarer tubes that I have are short black plate Sylvania's that were made for a short period in the early to mid 50's. They have the shiny black plates like a Raytheon. The one's I have are around 70 percent so I've never even used them in an amp to see how they sound.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a short gray plate Sylvania that tests good. Those were just after the black plates and from what I read they are not as good. That short black plate Sylvania I found was too weak to use. I don't know why but I have bad luck finding either Sylvania or RCA 12AX7'S from that far back that test good, even if they are NOS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan I have a shoebox full of tubes that test 20 to 60 percent. They are not any good for my customers, but they don't take up much space so I don't feel like throwing them away.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-I hope this data is more accurate now that we got my meter straightened out.

Socket #8 with Pin #8 as ground reference.

1. 60.8AC Test Button #1 engaged
2. -86.5DC
3. .1mV AC
4. 0
5. 12.8AC
6. 62.8AC Test Button #2 engaged
7. -86.5DC 
8. Ground
9. Not used

Socket #39 D = 5 (Socket #8/Pin #8 ground reference)

1. 0 
2. 12.8VAC
3. 0
4. 0
5. 115.5VAC/64.3VAC with Test Button #1 engaged
6. 0
7. 0
8. 0
9. 0

Socket #39 D = 8 (Socket #8/Pin #8 ground reference)

1. 0
2. 12.8VAC
3. 0
4. 0
5. 0
6. 0
7. 0
8. 115.5VAC/64.3VAC Test Button #1 engaged


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan I have a shoebox full of tubes that test 20 to 60 percent. They are not any good for my customers, but they don't take up much space so I don't feel like throwing them away.



One of my best-sounding tubes is an old 1950's Amperex long plate that tests at around 50%.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty

The voltages look to be within tolerances.
I was going over the schematic and was trying to figure out how the Jet-Check board worked with relation to the Switch Section Board. The schematic is not clear so I asked for voltages to see what was showing up on each board. When I saw your numbers I picked up on the differences which puzzled me. See, I was under the assumption that the entire machine tested amplifier tubes by mutual conductance method. But that is not the case. I started reading the manual and found that the Jet-Check section is mutual conductance while the Switch Section is Dyna-Jet emission test. So that is why I kind of said do not bother with the socket #39 measurements. This is also why my previous idea is fruitless since using socket #39 has no mutual conductance test.

I was trying to compare 12AX7 to 6EU7(different pinout) since they both have the same triode sections. Well guess what, the 6EU7 does not get a mutual conductance test and just does not make sense. But at least a 6EU7 is not common nor do we tend to use them.

I was only given DC readings an pins #2 and #7 of socket #8. You have AC signal riding DC there so you have to make sure to change meter to AC volts and measure for the signal rms.

As to the full deflection modification, socket #6 test a 6AV6 and 12AV6 which has a triode section same as the 12AX7 too. But they are tested at -2V bias level with full scale reading. Notice that these are tested with a sensitvity of 91 however. I think 91 sensitivity, not 85 or 87, is your number when using full scale.

Now with the 5751. They test it the same as a 12AX7. As I mentioned before there is a small window where these types react the same. The B&K 700 series does not meet that criteria with its voltages. The 5751 type will always measure a much higher transconductance due to its characteristics. I believe their minimum based on this should be like mentioned before, 27 or 28 perhaps. B&K knew this but did not offer different settings, I believe due to industry standard and not wanting to deviate. So Marty, your 5751 tubes are not abnormally strong and the above explains why.

So here in lies the problem. Since B&K knew this with the 5751 and 6SL7 types they decided to bump up the negative bias voltage, adjust the sensitvity and use a partial scale deflection. I hope everyone sees why. If you try to test good or strong 5751 and 6SL7 types on their tester with full scale these tube will be reading off scale or pinging the right side of the scale constantly.

Therefore the modification only gives the 12AX7 a full scale deflection reading in a decent manner. Honestly I would test using the intended circuit as is, no modification, and adjust my numbers for the 5751. Use 27 as a minimum and 42 as an average good. But the modification does not impair anything so it can be used for 12AX7/7025 types although socket #24 can no longer be used to test its designated tubes.

Now as for the differences between you guys readings with the same tester. There can be +/- tolerances which will give a percenatge of error and that includes wall voltage. I do not care what B&K's manual states about about line voltage compenstation and sensative bridge monitors. I have seen more elaborate designs and wall/line flucuation affects them all.
Marty, your higher scores are due to tolerances, state of calibration and your normally high wall supply voltage. It would be interesting to see Chas's voltage readings along with his wall voltage.

I hope this sheds some light on those B&K testers.


----------



## Marshall Art

This thread smells like good tone.


----------



## solarburn

I fart Marshall tone only after it been cooked until vintage!

Maybe I should get a Klip of that^^^^^^^^


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-Thanks for taking to time to research the 707. You made some informative comments. TBH, I am so used to the partial meter readings for the 12AX7 that I can live without the full scale mod. The guy that refurbished and calibrated my tester is the same guy that sold Chas his 707. Chas has the full scale mod on his. Mr. Mabry told me to set the sensitivity at 87 for testing with the full scale.

Now does this same principle of operation apply to the TV-7 tester? The minimum good for a 12AX7 on it is 32.

I thought you were aware that the 707 was a two section tester. Yes, the bottom section is emission testing only. It would be cool if there was a setting to test 12AX7's for emissions in socket #39.

Again, thanks for your comments. I appreciate your efforts.


----------



## mickeydg5

The TV-7 is Hickok design and follows their setup which uses lower voltages to produce the result. Those voltages are not ideal either for the 5751 but they are better suited than B&K's design. While B&K's 5751 readings might be about 30% to 40% over the Hickok comes in at above 10% or closer to 20% I find. So unless you have a true laboratory tester with exact control over voltages then there will always be margin of error especially with the 5751 type.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I always wanted a Tripplet 3444 or 3444A. Even a junky one goes for serious money on EBAY. That is about as close to a laboratory tester you can get.


----------



## MrDowntown

This thread is just awesome  
Started yesterday, and have read up to page 22....wonder if I'll ever catch the ending!

 = me and toobs. Trying to glean as much as possible from you guys. 

Mdt


----------



## mickeydg5

I would not mind having a Triplett 3444A myself. Those are nice testers.

But just because it says laboratory on the deck does not mean it is actually a laboratory quality tester. Actaully I believe Triplett was slapped on the hand for badging 3444 testers with "Laboratory". You will not see that on all deck panels. I do not think I have ever seen a 3444A with "Laboratory" on it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

They are pretty good, laboratory model or not. 

I saw a mint 3444A fetch over three grand on EBAY. Most 3444's go for over $1500.

(You still have to be concerned with the age of the capacitors. What were the resistors, carbon comp?)


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes some of those Triplett 3444 types sell pretty high.
The same goes for Hickok 539C and 580, WE 15750 and RD-1575 types, military TV-2 types. Some of these hover at about $1500.
I have kind of always had an eye on AVO as well, some more expensive vintage stuff.


----------



## MartyStrat54

What do you know about a Hickok 752? What is the difference between a 752 and a 752A?






Are they comparable to the 539C? If not, what makes the 539C better?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I don't know about the price on this. Seems high to me. More than a Tripplet 3444A.

Late Model Hickok Model 539C Tube Tester Working Very Well | eBay


----------



## rockgod212

just scored a nos rayethon long black plate 12ax7. cant wait to try it out....


----------



## mickeydg5

rockgod212 said:


> just scored a nos rayethon long black plate 12ax7. cant wait to try it out....


Let us know what it does for you, soundwise.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> I don't know about the price on this. Seems high to me. More than a Tripplet 3444A.
> 
> Late Model Hickok Model 539C Tube Tester Working Very Well | eBay


I saw that. It is way too high even if it was just perfectly calibrated.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> What do you know about a Hickok 752? What is the difference between a 752 and a 752A?
> 
> Are they comparable to the 539C? If not, what makes the 539C better?


The 752 types are nice and can test both sides of a dual on the same switch settings. I am pretty sure the "A" is just a newer version with a few added sockets. There is a wide range of pricing on these lately.

I think the 539C is considered tops by lots of people here in the Americas for service type testers. It has dual power supply, line gauge, bias gauge and better consistency/accuracy.

I have read that the 752 models were suppose to replace the 539 series but no way. The 539 are just better.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. I saw an 752 on EBAY for a decent price. I'm sure that 539's are more expensive since they are considered better.


----------



## mickeydg5

double post somehow


----------



## mickeydg5

Notice the lower end prices on the testers
Sometimes you can get a 752A for $400, a TV-2 for $500 and a 539B/C for maybe $600 plus. Unless you luck out on a really great deal at a lower price. It is a judgement call though on whether it is in good condition, powers up and working properly.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just bought a couple of cabs. No money now for another tester.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was wondering about that. I figured you hit a good lottery ticket .


----------



## MartyStrat54

No Mickey. All I've got is my smile and good looks.


----------



## mickeydg5

So you are working the local corner for extra cash or do you use those assets for free drinks?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm hoping to snare a rich widow that owns a liquor store and a bass boat with an attractive 20 year old daughter who still lives at home.


----------



## mickeydg5

You have better chances playing lottery.


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## Chas_W

I am still here.... Dealing with work/life balance and it is skewed not in my favor. F the man....


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hang in there Chas. I busted my ass for the man in Phoenix for 20 years. 15 of those were working outside in the heat.


----------



## lordquilton

This is an abridged version of a PM I sent to Marty about getting some preamp tubes for my DSL 40C. I'm posting it here to get more viewpoints/ advice from the regulars here hopefully. I have dipped into this thread here and there,
and I apologize if this discussion means going over old ground- such a huge thread!

I'm playing an Ibanez S 970CW guitar- it's mahogany with a walnut top, with the floating trem. It's got a 250k pot for the volume. I replaced the stock pickups with Seymour Duncans- a Duncan Custom HB in the bridge,
an alnic pro II for the middle SC, and a Stag Mag for the neck. I got the Custom to get some balls back from the floating bridge, and it's not too hot. I like what it does for the mid range too. Kinda like a Vintage 30 in a pickup, 
though I shy away from the really high output pickups.
The other two I got because I really like a smooth, lush clean sound from the between positions on the 5-way. You know, gobs of reverb a'la Chris Isaac's "Wicked Game"?
Never thought a Marshall could get close to that, which brings us to...

The DSL 40C. I love the green channel on crunch; the big shouldered bass on that channel really does it for me. Like others, I've found that sufficient treble/presence on that channel is too much on the red channel. 
I followed Micky's lead on the DSL 40C thread and used Red 2 with the gain about three to get some beef, Red 1 is too thin.I also had the C19 mod done (put in 100pf), and I recently installed the Creamback 65 watt speaker. Overall, these 
changes have been an improvement (I looked down the second day I had the Creamback, there was all this green dust on the guitar in front of the bridge pickup- I don't recall wearing down a pick that quickly before!).
I still back the tone on the guitar back to about 5 for rhythm on Red 2, it's just too harsh, but for single notes it's fine. I'm just playing at home for now, maybe I would appreciate the red channel more if I had to compete with
other instruments. On that note, I haven't really had the master on either channel past 2, and I play pretty much on axis and nearly at ear level, so my expectations as far as harshness go may be a little unrealistic. 


The solution for now is to use a Monte Allum's modded Blues Driver to push green/crunch with more gain. 

Monte Allums Mods - Individual Pedal Mods

It's the H20 Plus mod with dual op-amps, so you would think it was fairly transparent. I like what this pedal does. I set the level at about 3 o'clock and the gain down quite low, about 8 o'clock. It sounds like the green channel on 
steroids of course, but I still find things a little harsh for chords. Not ice pick hurts your ears harsh, just a coloration on the highs that's just not "organic", if that makes sense.
So I thought perhaps what I need is preamp tubes that break up differently?
I don't know, maybe all the recorded tones I like just have that stuff dialed out! I'm pretty sure some "vintage magic" would help a lot though.

So to sum up, I'm resigned to the DSL really being a "one channel amp with four great modes", but if tubes can address the disparity between green and red somewhat, that would be great.
I want as deep a bass as a 1x12 semi-open back combo can produce! Could I also have the moon on a stick with that?

I think what I really want is a fair bit of gain that somehow stays sweet and warm in top end.Is soft the right word? I think the rig is pretty set for presence and clarity, and the amp is quite responsive to pick attack as is.

Hope that's not too much information for y'all, but I wasn't quite sure how to approach this highly subjective process.


----------



## solarburn

Just one thing I noticed LQ besides having the cab at head level is you keep the master volume low on this amp. If you goose it up it starts to warm up and fill out. Just wanted to point that out as you are tuning the amp for volume on 2. The Crunch voicing really changes to me the more volume is added.

You and me have so much in common in our pursuit to make this amp better it makes me laugh. 

You're in good hands over here and I'm going to sit back and watch it unfold...and jump on anything I've missed myself hehe. Member I'm one of the early tube rollers in this thread...been there done that and I really notice a nugget of something I missed when I watch this thread. Besides I have good buddies right here.


----------



## lordquilton

A long time ago. I used to run a Boogie Mark II C into a Marshall SE 100 for the attenuator. The way that used to make the strings feel was pure ****ing VOODOO! It really did feel like I was a better player when that thing was cooking. Getting emotional right now just thinking about it.
Was still take-your-head-off beaming on axis though!

I will probably go down the attenuator route again, the last thing I need is to be self-conscious when I get my daily "fix".
The amp hasn't been biased yet, so my thinking was-
Speaker (done)
Preamp tubes
Power tubes/bias
(speakers now broken in!)
Attenuator


----------



## lordquilton

Oh, and this is a warm and fuzzy thread for sure!
Thanks everybody who has contributed.


----------



## solarburn

lordquilton said:


> A long time ago. I used to run a Boogie Mark II C into a Marshall SE 100 for the attenuator. The way that used to make the strings feel was pure ****ing VOODOO! It really did feel like I was a better player when that thing was cooking. Getting emotional right now just thinking about it.
> Was still take-your-head-off beaming on axis though!
> 
> I will probably go down the attenuator route again, the last thing I need is to be self-conscious when I get my daily "fix".
> The amp hasn't been biased yet, so my thinking was-
> Speaker (done)
> Preamp tubes
> Power tubes/bias
> (speakers now broken in!)
> Attenuator



Well for me if I know the amp fills out with more volume than I know it will address some of the weak spots at lower volume. I don't play mine set over 2 either at home but I have tested how it fills out and sounds at volume so I know. in fact I tune it there as well but usually if I've got it pretty good at volume 2 it just gets better with more volume.LOL

I hate the speaker cab at head level. I have to be off axis and have it down and that goes for any speaker cab. My ears pick up those harsh frequencies that are impossible to bury. So move my position and boom its way better. Then I tell myself those harsh frequencies don't exist. Hopefully a sound guy knows this while micing and won't punish the audience.

Your experience with that Mesa sound eargasmic. Oh if they all could be that good dammit!


----------



## solarburn

Should check the bias although when I checked mine it was just right. I didn't need to change it really but I feel its a must to know where it's at. The stock power tubes were matched close and stable as hell. I was impressed and it explained why it sounded pretty good out of the box. A shit bias can disturb that tone.


----------



## lordquilton

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Well for me if I know the amp fills out with more volume than I know it will address some of the weak spots at lower volume. I don't play mine set over 2 either at home but I have tested how it fills out and sounds at volume so I know. in fact I tune it there as well but usually if I've got it pretty good at volume 2 it just gets better with more volume.LOL
> 
> I hate the speaker cab at head level. I have to be off axis and have it down and that goes for any speaker cab. My ears pick up those harsh frequencies that are impossible to bury. So move my position and boom its way better. Then I tell myself those harsh frequencies don't exist. Hopefully a sound guy knows this while micing and won't punish the audience.
> 
> Your experience with that Mesa sound eargasmic. Oh if they all could be that good dammit!



You almost answered my next question! I saw someone say around here that you need to run at 6(!!) on a DSL to really see what the amps about. What's "at volume" for you? I set mine up in the corner, and I'm pretty happy with the low end on green/crunch. Can't sleep tonight, and it came to me before- the frequency I don't like when I push the crunch with the pedal is about the same as the frequency I don't like from a new set of D'Addarios for the first week. Harsh, metallic "mid highs". Gah! Have you checked out "Mitchell Donuts"? Speaker Directivity - The Gear Page You only need to read the first couple of pages. Seems like a good cheap solution for the aural health of the folks in the front row, with more even dispersion for the player.


----------



## MartyStrat54

LORD-I sent you a PM. I apologize that I overlooked your PM. They tend to pile up in my inbox.


----------



## solarburn

lordquilton said:


> You almost answered my next question! I saw someone say around here that you need to run at 6(!!) on a DSL to really see what the amps about. What's "at volume" for you? I set mine up in the corner, and I'm pretty happy with the low end on green/crunch. Can't sleep tonight, and it came to me before- the frequency I don't like when I push the crunch with the pedal is about the same as the frequency I don't like from a new set of D'Addarios for the first week. Harsh, metallic "mid highs". Gah! Have you checked out "Mitchell Donuts"? Speaker Directivity - The Gear Page You only need to read the first couple of pages. Seems like a good cheap solution for the aural health of the folks in the front row, with more even dispersion for the player.




I've done this and indeed does work. Got the info from the same thread. Still have the foam cut outs.

I'm telling ya we're walking the same path. Our ears are related!LOL


----------



## solarburn

lordquilton said:


> You almost answered my next question! I saw someone say around here that you need to run at 6(!!) on a DSL to really see what the amps about. What's "at volume" for you? I set mine up in the corner, and I'm pretty happy with the low end on green/crunch.



I didn't run volume over 5 on my DSL50. I didn't think I felt or heard any tone/feel improvement over that. It was the sweet spot for me.

With this combo I've had it up to 4 and thought it pretty good as it being full and in its power section. Not sure where the speaker is going to lose itself...sounded on the verge here.

Putting it in the corner keeps it full sounding. I do the same although my 412 already occupies that spot so I have it in front of it. Great way to add bottom though!


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> LORD-I sent you a PM. I apologize that I overlooked your PM. They tend to pile up in my inbox.




Hook LQ up good Marty. He's been tuning his DSL40 and doing it smart. Made some great improvements and posted them for others. Just needs the icing on the cake.

Frost that cake!


----------



## MartyStrat54

I didn't know he was an Aussie, but I can still accommodate him.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I just found out too haha. It's creating some obstacles for certain materials he wants. We'll see if we can hook up with tubes and foam.LOL


----------



## mickeydg5

lordquilton said:


> Harsh, metallic "mid highs". Gah! Have you checked out "Mitchell Donuts"? Speaker Directivity - The Gear Page You only need to read the first couple of pages. Seems like a good cheap solution for the aural health of the folks in the front row, with more even dispersion for the player.


 


solarburnDSL50 said:


> I've done this and indeed does work. Got the info from the same thread. Still have the foam cut outs.
> 
> I'm telling ya we're walking the same path. Our ears are related!LOL


I would like to know how much sound is actually being killed by this method.


----------



## solarburn

mickeydg5 said:


> I would like to know how much sound is actually being killed by this method.



What I compare it to is being off axis from your cab...smoother warmer tone. No data from other than that though Mickey. The guy that presented the method talked about using the right material for sound reflection cause it can block too much if the foam is too thick or doesn't flow/filter the sound with the goal in mind.


----------



## lordquilton

As Jay says (many times!) on the thread, it's simple, cheap and you don't even have to glue it in to see if it works for you. The proof of the pudding etc, Hey, while I'm here not sleeping...(I think it's a bad case of the tube jones) V1 on my 40C only has that black rubber ring damper on it. Wouldn't a metal shield be better? And if so, can someone post a link directly to one thats known to fit without question?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wasn't aware that V1 didn't come with a tube shield on the 40C. The first thing that needs to be determined is whether or not the chassis is notched for a standard Marshall shield.


----------



## lordquilton

Okay, what am I looking for?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wasn't aware that V1 didn't come with a tube shield on the 40C. The first thing that needs to be determined is whether or not the chassis is notched for a standard Marshall shield.



It comes with a ring dampener...more like a grommet to check speaker vibrations.

You think it needs a shield man?


----------



## solarburn

Look at Mickeys picture here. Scroll down. They're notched.

http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/53780-official-marshall-dsl40c-information-thread.html


----------



## lordquilton

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wasn't aware that V1 didn't come with a tube shield on the 40C. The first thing that needs to be determined is whether or not the chassis is notched for a standard Marshall shield.



Well, on each side (left and right) of the &quot;tube hole&quot; are small semi circular extensions to the basic circular shape. Are these the notches? (edit)Dang beat me to it!


----------



## mickeydg5

Some inginuity would have to be used to fit a shield or sheilds to the metal pan for preamp tubes.


----------



## solarburn

.


----------



## solarburn




----------



## MartyStrat54

You know, I sold both of my DSL401's. If I was younger I would think about a 40C as there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm about this amp.

Of course I have an old single channel 40 watter being built that I'll probably be happy with.


----------



## Cooltouch

Howdy folks, 

I'm new to these forums and still sort of feeling my way around, but I have some specific questions regarding 12AX7's, and I'm thinking this is probably a good thread to ask them.

I own a Valvestate VS102R which takes a single 12AX7 for its preamp section. I suspect this tube is tired because of the way the amp is behaving. It sounds exhausted when cranked. Reminds me of the sound of Jack Bruce's bass on some of the Cream live recordings. Rhythmic farting. 

The tube is a Phillips ECG JAN12AX7 and is, from what I've been able to ascertain, likely OEM. I did a google search, looking for comments on this specific tube, and found this one over at thegearpage.net's forums, which seemed to be accepted wisdom:

_"The JAN Philips ECG 12AX7WA was made in the former Sylvania plant, after the dying US tube companies merged to form that company. Those aren't bad, per se, but nothing like the glory of the first Philips 12AX7 from Holland."_

So I guess I'd like to find one that is a bit more exciting than the Phillips that's in there now. I surfed on over to Guitar Center's site and was surprised to find that they carry such a large selection. In fact, they show two pages of different preamp tubes:

Preamp Tubes | Guitar Center

So, I'm gonna start reading through the reviews, hoping this might give me some idea, but I thought I should check in here and see what the Marshall crew has to say. Cuz I'm figuring that what may sound good in one Marshall might not sound as good in mine, eh?

So for an amp like the VS102R, with its single 12AX7, what would you recommend?


----------



## damienbeale

Well, in all honesty, you're not going to notice the benefits of different tubes in the same way that you will with a proper valve signal path.

You'd be better off fitting something that is relatively neutral sounding, like a Mullard reissue, than one of the chinese grinders, or a JJ treble damper. Tung-sol may give thicker mids, but like I said, in all honesty, in a Valvestate the differences are not going to be all that pronounced.

Your symptoms may be related to the preamp tube, but it's not the most likely scenario in all honesty.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cooltouch-I think I already made some recommendations for you on your "Introduce Yourself" thread.


----------



## Cooltouch

damienbeale said:


> Well, in all honesty, you're not going to notice the benefits of different tubes in the same way that you will with a proper valve signal path.
> 
> You'd be better off fitting something that is relatively neutral sounding, like a Mullard reissue, than one of the chinese grinders, or a JJ treble damper. Tung-sol may give thicker mids, but like I said, in all honesty, in a Valvestate the differences are not going to be all that pronounced.
> 
> Your symptoms may be related to the preamp tube, but it's not the most likely scenario in all honesty.



Yeah, after reading quite a few threads discussing V1 through V4 and the effects the various tubes had on each location, I began to realize that, with just one tube, I was likely to be dealing with a more middle of the road proposition out of necessity. But still, as you point out, some are likely to work better than others. I mentioned above that I was gonna read through all the reviews at GC, but I got sidetracked. I've only read about 30% of them or so, and so far no Valvestate user has commented.

Hey don't leave me hanging about likely scenarios. What do you think is a more likely one? I haven't really described the amp's "problem" in detail. At higher volumes it just distorts a lot -- reminds me of the old Ampegs. Once its reached a certain distortion level, cranking the gain/volume controls results in very little volume increase. The amp is relatively loud when the gain/volume are cranked, but not so loud in a band setting, especially if you have a loud drummer. I'm figuring it's probably putting out more like 30 or 40 watts. I had to remove the chassis to find out what tube it had, and the chassis is still out. Is there a test I can do on the output transistors or other components to narrow things down further?

As I mentioned in my intro thread, it had been suggested to me once that the speakers were shot. I dunno if I believe that's the case. The amp has a nice looking pair of Marshall/Celestion Gold Backs in it. If it's the speakers, I can get them reconed locally by a fellow who's been in the sound reinforcement business since the early 60s -- well, actually, it was his Dad and he inherited the buisness. Something of a local lengend, plus his prices are reasonable.



MartyStrat54 said:


> Cooltouch-I think I already made some recommendations for you on your "Introduce Yourself" thread.



Yeah, but it was just lightly touched upon and I thought that somewhere other than an intro thread would a better place for a discussion.
I hope your guess is correct, Mart.,


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I wouldn't get too overly concerned about picking a 12AX7 for your amp. Any decent current production tube will do the job. You are not going to see dramatic changes from one tube to the next in the Valvestate.


----------



## mickeydg5

Cooltouch
Why not just try a 12BZ7 to see how that helps or what it does for the circuit?


----------



## EndGame00

Is it really that worth doing that much work on a valvestate? As everyone mentioned, you're probably not gonna hear any difference even if you swap the preamp tube. I'd recommend getting a tube amp and have fun rolling and experimenting with different types and combination of preamp tubes. Tube-rolling is very addicting.


----------



## Cooltouch

I just googled the 12BZ7 and, based on what I found, I think I'd rather stick with a 12AX7. The BZ is cited as providing 1 or 2 additional dB of gain, but is also very susceptible to microphonics.

Endgame, it's not much work, really. I'm learning stuff, and I appreciate you guys taking the time to explain stuff to me. As for a preamp tube not making that much difference, I think it could, especially if the extant one is getting tired.

I've finished reading through the descriptions and reviews of the various tubes at GC's website, and based on these I've decided that my first choice is the Tung-Sol 12AX7. Both the description and the reviews were impressive. There were a few other preamp tubes they had that were also highly thought of, and I think that I may pick up one of each of these also, just to have a variety. 

I realize that my Valvestate may not show much difference between the various tubes, but apparently that isn't always the case. Regarding the Tung-Sol, one of the reviews was from an owner of a 65-watt Valvestate -- he didn't mention the model, but it is most likely a VS65R, which is in the same model class as my VS102R. He wrote, _"What a big difference in tone ! It's got more gain, clarity and better sustain. It's quiet also and the sound of my amp, either clean or distorted is more pronounce and sounds just more musical now."

_So if he saw that level of improvement with his installation I think I can at least be hopeful that I can expect a similar amount of improvement, _especially _if my amp's Philips ECG 12AX7 is tired. Which I think it most likely is. I wouldn't be surprised if that Phillips came with the amp.

So anyway, I'll go ahead and pick one up. It can't hurt, can it?


----------



## EndGame00

Try different brands. I personally like the Preferred Series 7025 + cp Mullard 12ax7 combo in my Marshall clone. Instead of going through GC to buy tubes online, try thetubestore.com or dougstubes.com

good luck with your search.


----------



## Cooltouch

Thanks for the tips on the other tube stores. I went to Amazon and found the Tung-Sol for eleven bucks and change.


----------



## damienbeale

Cooltouch said:


> Hey don't leave me hanging about likely scenarios. What do you think is a more likely one? I haven't really described the amp's "problem" in detail. At higher volumes it just distorts a lot -- reminds me of the old Ampegs. Once its reached a certain distortion level, cranking the gain/volume controls results in very little volume increase. The amp is relatively loud when the gain/volume are cranked, but not so loud in a band setting, especially if you have a loud drummer. I'm figuring it's probably putting out more like 30 or 40 watts. I had to remove the chassis to find out what tube it had, and the chassis is still out. Is there a test I can do on the output transistors or other components to narrow things down further?




What you are describing sounds like more of a power amp/supply issue, and/or speaker issue.
I wouldn't bother reconing Celestion Golds unless you mean the Alnico Gold. It'll never be quite the same speaker it was before and they weren't that great to start with. Better off with a suitable replacement if required.


----------



## mickeydg5

It would be nice to see the manual to read the operation of this amplifier.

Marshall's new site jacked everyone of having access to older manuals. All old links seem to be broken and they have not made new ones.

Do all channels share the same characteristic, too much distortion?

It would be interesting to see what series resistors would do for the clipping diodes D8 and D9.

Anyway a 12AU7 is the opposite direction. May that bring signal down enough to give more use of GAIN and VOLUME controls?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Cooltouch said:


> Thanks for the tips on the other tube stores. I went to Amazon and found the Tung-Sol for eleven bucks and change.



The only problem with buying tubes on Amazon is that if the tube is defective you can't return it for a new one. Most reputable tube stores have a 90 day warranty period.

The EBAY and Amazon sellers don't offer this sort of warranty.


----------



## RiverRatt

Has anyone seen the Telefunken Black Diamond tubes? I couldn't find any mention of them on here. I checked out their website and it confirmed what I thought - they are relabeled JJ's. They are cryogenically treated though. 

TELEFUNKEN-ELEKTROAKUSTIK.COM | TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik™ -


----------



## mickeydg5

Handpicked JJ's; why not, everyone else is at it with other tube manufacturers.

And they are freeze dried!


----------



## MartyStrat54

Basturdizing another reputable brand. I heard that we can expect new Amperex tubes to be available soon. Some Chinese firm owns the trademark.


----------



## Marshall Art




----------



## mickeydg5

It is a shame what distributors and their marketing will do.


----------



## MartyStrat54

> Richardson owns the trademarks "Amperex" and "Bugle Boy". They can label anything they want with those, and they aren't "fakes". But they sure aren't "NOS".



FYI-I couldn't remember who bought the trademark, but it is Richardson. They have already been selling these tubes for quite some time.


----------



## RiverRatt

If you look on the Telefunken web site, they actually have some NOS tubes listed. You can get a pair of Telefunken EL34's for $400.


----------



## Cooltouch

damienbeale said:


> What you are describing sounds like more of a power amp/supply issue, and/or speaker issue.
> I wouldn't bother reconing Celestion Golds unless you mean the Alnico Gold. It'll never be quite the same speaker it was before and they weren't that great to start with. Better off with a suitable replacement if required.



Well, as of this evening, I don't think there's anything wrong with the speakers at all. I am blaming it entirely on two factors: 1) I haven't really used the amp in ages because it's just a little too big and a little too heavy for my aching back, and 2) blame it on misleading language.

There's this little push button on the front of my VS102R, you see, that's labeled "Power Dimension," which to me is suggestful of all sorts of Marshall Awesomeness when it is activated, that is, pushed in. So I didn't think much of it when I saw that it was pushed in, secure in the knowledge that I was experiencing Marshall Awesomeness and, truth be told, the amp did sound pretty good really. I had my SG plugged into the amp and the clean channel was the active one with the volume set to straight up. But I got curious about what the difference in sonld quality would be like so I pushed the button to the out position and HOLY CRAP! This SUMBICH is LOUD! So with the volume set to 5 on the clean channel, when I strike a single note with a moderate amount of forcefulness, it causes my house's concrete slab floor to vibrate. I crank it up to 8 and now I can feel the sound waves pound me in the gut and my inner ear is feeling kind of funny. The concrete slab is trembling and the walls are rattling now. _'S what I'm _talking_ 'bout!_

I've changed my mind. I think the old Phillips tube that's in there now is just fine. But I don't mind ordering the new Tung-Sol. Providing it arrives in good shape, it should be a hoot to see how it compares.



mickeydg5 said:


> It would be nice to see the manual to read the operation of this amplifier.
> 
> Marshall's new site jacked everyone of having access to older manuals. All old links seem to be broken and they have not made new ones.
> 
> Do all channels share the same characteristic, too much distortion?
> 
> It would be interesting to see what series resistors would do for the clipping diodes D8 and D9.
> 
> Anyway a 12AU7 is the opposite direction. May that bring signal down enough to give more use of GAIN and VOLUME controls?



Well, read above. I think it's a moot point now. As for Marshall's new site, can't say I care for it really. In fact, I liked the old site. Why in hell did they have to go change it. I remember for a fact recently downloading the "manual" for this amp from the Marshall site -- probably wasn't more than three or four months ago. If you can call it a manual. It's more like a brochure. In fact, once I opened the pdf, it looked familiar. My amp came with what I had always thought was a sales brochure tucked into the back. Turns out what I thought was the brochure was the manual. Go figure. 

But you know what I did, I left the Marshall folks an email, telling them I didn't like their new site at all, that I felt they were catering to a fad, e.g., social media and that Marshall Amplifiers are NOT a fad. And then I asked them why they had removed all of the Valvestates from their manual listings.

Will it do some good? Maybe if the folks here and a bazillion others complain also.


----------



## mickeydg5

Cooltouch

That is exactly what I was getting at with the lost links to old manuals. I had looked at the schematic but did not run through everything to decipher all situations. But did notice buttons and switches and was wondering what the manual descriptions might explain. And that lead to my first question about channels.

I know they still produce the Power Brake and it does not even show up on the site. The older site was not totally user friendly either but it did have more information. (Added: I may take that back because maybe they do not anymore.)

I am glad it was as easy as messing with controls for you.
Rock on.


----------



## Cooltouch

You and me both, Mickey. And I've learned my lesson. My Marshalls had gotten shoved over into a corner and stuff had been stacked on them because they weren't being used. See, for a while now I've been running my guitars through an audio interface for my computers. But just yesterday I rearranged my music room, so now my Marshall's are out in the open and easy to get to.


As for Marshall's website, I'm hopeful that they just haven't gotten everything up yet.


----------



## damienbeale

Just received an email newletter from w@tf$rd valves...

The TJ Full Music 12AX7 Gold pin is the Remake of the classic Mullard ECC83-CV4004 Box anode which is one of the best sounding and most sought after audio ECC83 Types ever made. 
This is the most requested Audio ECC83 that is made today as in all HI Fi reviews that I have read this is the best sounding valve of its type made today. 

This valve under goes a factory 30 hour burn in process and each valves is completely hand assembled. 
The Valve has also received rave reviews across the world and Neville Roberts the Hi Fi journalist of Hi fi world fame rates the TJ full music as his number 1 choice. 

Sadly we only have a small stock of this valve as supply is very limited so all orders will be allocated to your order on a first come first served bias. 

These are available at only £40 each ex Vat until midnight on Wednesday 5th March 2014  


So that would be £48, + postage for a current production tube...


Uh, I think I would rather gouge out my eyeballs with a rusty spoon, fry them, and eat them, crap them out, and eat them again.

I guess some people will buy anything.


I don't care how good it is, I don't see how anybody can justify that sort of price for a current production tube. It is not one of the hand made bespoke tubes, just a short run Chinese production tube. I appreciate tooling costs etc. but there is just no way that price point is even remotely fair. And I'm almost certain I can get way better older tubes for that price. In fact, I don't think I've ever paid anything like that for any of my old tubes, although I doubt I'll ever see any decent true NOS Mullards for that sort of price ever again.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Just more aggressive advertising. Watford is probably getting them for £5 and marking the crap out of them.

This is like when the Northern Electric 12AX7 came out. It is currently priced at 58USD. I did a test on them and out of the four I received, one tested at around 65 percent, another one was microphonic and the the other two sounded "okay." They damn sure didn't make me go "Wow!"

As far as Chinese CP, there are several tubes out there in the $20-$25 price range that I feel sound better than the Northern Electric.

As close as a CV4004 can be made in today's world, it still will not have the same exact cathode and anode construction and the coatings will be different. 

It ain't gonna sound like an original.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I just picked up 25 1959 (first year) Baldwin labeled Raytheon Black Plates. Emissions test was 108. I hope that means at least 85 percent on my tester.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Guy is claiming these are Mullards. Well if you look at the tube on the left you can clearly see a "delta" symbol. I'm thinking three of them are Philips 12AX7's made at Herleen and I'm wondering if that slant getter isn't a Valvo. (Probably a slant getter Matsushita.) 

One thing is for sure, Mullard never made a slant getter 12AX7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Delta I65 "Mullard"


----------



## MartyStrat54

Slant getter Mullard. He has five of these for sale. I'm thinking Japanese.

Clear glass, no codes.


----------



## mickeydg5

So, it seems those are some Heerlen 1960 and 1962 12AX7 new construction types.

Is that a slant or is it just bent upward on an angle? It has to be a slant because the ring is so low on the one side.


----------



## RiverRatt

It's almost surely a slant-getter Matsushita from the 1960's. They always have that dark getter flash and they are so much more common than a Valvo.


----------



## solarburn

I like those slant and D getter Shita's. Make my OR15 more Marshally. Which it already leans too as is.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> So, it seems those are some Heerlen 1960 and 1962 12AX7 new construction types.
> 
> Is that a slant or is it just bent upward on an angle? It has to be a slant because the ring is so low on the one side.



Mickey the tube second from the left has a sort of slant and that was common as it was just an assembly issue. The tube second from the right is most definitely a slant getter.

I contacted both of the sellers with the "delta" Mullards and neither one has a clue about tubes. I gave both of them a brief history lesson on Mullard tubes and one guy responded, "I've seen Philips tubes without seams." Sure you have, they were relabeled tubes that weren't made by Philips.

In that bottom picture it is an IEC tube. IEC had bought the rights to the Mullard name. They put Mullard on many Japanese (and other foreign made) tubes. It doesn't have seams.


----------



## mickeydg5

Good information.
I noticed the last one did not appear to have seems. I though the Japanese had Mullard/Philips tooling and made glass with seams. I guess there were other Japanese factories though.


----------



## Cooltouch

Cooltouch said:


> There's this little push button on the front of my VS102R, you see, that's labeled "Power Dimension," which to me is suggestful of all sorts of Marshall Awesomeness when it is activated, that is, pushed in. So I didn't think much of it when I saw that it was pushed in, secure in the knowledge that I was experiencing Marshall Awesomeness and, truth be told, the amp did sound pretty good really. I had my SG plugged into the amp and the clean channel was the active one with the volume set to straight up. But I got curious about what the difference in sonld quality would be like so I pushed the button to the out position and HOLY CRAP! This SUMBICH is LOUD! So with the volume set to 5 on the clean channel, when I strike a single note with a moderate amount of forcefulness, it causes my house's concrete slab floor to vibrate. I crank it up to 8 and now I can feel the sound waves pound me in the gut and my inner ear is feeling kind of funny. The concrete slab is trembling and the walls are rattling now. _'S what I'm _talking_ 'bout!_
> 
> I've changed my mind. I think the old Phillips tube that's in there now is just fine. But I don't mind ordering the new Tung-Sol. Providing it arrives in good shape, it should be a hoot to see how it compares.



I thought I'd revisit my sub-thread because my Tung-Sol arrived today and I've had a chance to try it out. But first a photo, showing the Phillips that came out of the amp alongside the new Tung-Sol:






I couldn't capture all the writing on the Phillips, so here it is:

Underneath the Phillips ECG it reads 34167 USA and to the right it reads 8726 AGY.

Also I guess you would call the new Tung-Sol as being a "short plate" tube, whereas the Phillips is a "long plate" one.

Now as for my early impressions:

I fired up the amp first with the Phillips tube in place. I started with the Clean channel active, volume at 5, EQ was bass 8, mid 4, treble 8 (this is usually the way I set up my Marshall EQ -- I don't care for much mids). The "Power Dimension" switch was pushed in initially, which gives me reduced volume, so I pushed it "out". Great volume. The Clean channel is breaking up just a bit -- good for playing chords with a light grind to them. I crank it up to 8 and, as before, I'm rattling the walls and my ears are telling me that it's way too loud. More grind now, good for soloing with a moderate grind. Sounds good and punchy. I like it.

Next I switch over to the OD1 channel. Volume set to 5, OD EQ set to bass 7, mid 4, treble 8. Volume is the same as the Clean channel. Good grind at volume 5. So I crank it up to 8. Same as with the Clean channel, it's just too damn loud. But it sure does sound good!

Okay, so I shut down the amp and swap tubes. Fire it back up, same initial settings as above. I start out with the Clean channel active. It definitely seems louder now -- and fatter: more "body" with somewhat fewer highs. There's a noticeable amount of increased grind, as well, but not excessive. Chords are a bit punchier. I switch to the OD1 channel. Settings are the same as was above. Oh yeah, wow, there is a noticeable difference now. That "fatter" sound is carried over to the OD setting. My SG's neck position pickup sounds like a huge wall of sound now, but not muddy at all. Great punch. Set to the bridge position pickup and it just wails. Wow again. I mean, this amp sounds really good with the Phillips, but with this Tung-Sol, everything just seems to have been -- um -- expanded . . . hotter . . . hard to describe. So I crank it up to 8 and OMG this thing is trying to punch holes in my ears! GAW_DAMN!_

On the earlier tryouts, I hadn't used the OD2 channel at all. But this time I do it with the Tung-Sol in place. The OD2 channel has 3 controls: Gain, "Contour" and Volume. Near as I can tell, the Contour control works a lot like the traditional Marshall "Presence" control does. I leave the Gain set to 5 and with the Volume at 5 I play around with the Contour settings. All the way off and it sounds somewhat like a mid cut, set to 5 a bit like a boost of all three tone controls, and cranked further it seems to be a boost in treble. I leave it at 5, straight up. The OD2 channel seems to be a hotter channel than OD1, a bit louder, a bit more drive. So I crank it up to 8 and FuJEEZ CHEERIST! It's out of _control!_ I was wondering earlier what "microphonics" were, but now I know. I'm getting a bit of squeal if I let go of the strings and a deeper howl depending on how I orient the guitar to the amp, but it's controllable. At this very high volume, I don't know if this is an excessive amount of microphonics by common standards or not. But given that it's still controllable even at very high volumes, I'd say it's not excessive. At lower volume levels I found no trace of microphonics. I haven't tried the Phillips tube at these same settings so I don't know how it performs.

So in conclusion I would have to say that, even in my VS102R Valvestate, this new Tung-Sol tube provides a noticeable, quantifiable, difference in sound. And personally, I like it. A lot.

BTW, there's quite a bit of empty space inside the chassis of this amp. Just so I don't lose track of the Phillips tube, in case I want to swap them out for the difference in tone, I'm just gonna store the tube in the Tung-Sol box and stash it over by the transformer. A lot of empty space over there.

Oh I just remembered something else. I bought the tube from Amazon, but it was shipped by BnB Tubes Store. One of y'all commented that you usually buy from tube stores because they'll let you return them if they're damaged in shipment or if they arrive microphonic. BnB sells most of their tubes on eBay and Amazon, but at least they packaged my tube very well -- the shipping box was filled with styro peanuts and the tube box was well wrapped in bubble wrap. If I have the occasion to need tubes in the future, I'll likely buy from them again. Here is a BnB auction at eBay for the same tube I bought. 100% satisfaction guaranteed with a 30 day return policy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-TUNG-SO...mplifier_Parts_Components&hash=item485ef91ef3


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Good information.
> I noticed the last one did not appear to have seems. I though the Japanese had Mullard/Philips tooling and made glass with seams. I guess there were other Japanese factories though.



Yes Mickey the "official" Japanese Mullards were made just like the originals and had the seam top. 

As I said, IEC relabeled a bunch of odd ball stuff including Russian military tubes. Also, some of you might not remember me talking about Taiwanese made 12AX7's.

I usually don't buy any IEC tubes unless it has the Mullard codes on the glass. These are some of the very last ones made. I do have some rare Mullard tubes that have no Mullard codes. These were definitely some of the last ones made.


----------



## RiverRatt

The slant getter Matsushita 12AX7's were the last good tubes to come out of Japan. Matsushita made a short gray plate 12AX7 with a tall halo getter that aren't very musical. The MIJ 12AX7's from the 1970's were made by Toshiba, Hitachi and NEC. Most of the NEC tubes I've seen were labeled Curtis Mathes. They have a vertical seam that goes all the way around the tube and sometimes can look like the Philips seemed top.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I definitely need to remember about all the rebranding that went on.

I do not know if I have ever seen a vertical seam all around a tube before. That is a strange one.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, it is strange. It's there though. It looks like the envelope was injection molded.

Hey Mickey, I picked up a Crate Blue Voodoo BV120H half stack yesterday and I've been rolling some tubes in it. It really responds well to some quality glass. Can you take a look at the schematic and verify the gain stages? It looks like V1A is common to both channels and V1B is the second gain stage for the clean channel V2 and V3 appear to finish off the gain stages for channel 2. I have four NOS TungSol 5881's in the power amp. I was pleasantly surprised by the tone. The amp is much better than it's reputation would lead you to believe.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/77904849/105XXH1.pdf


----------



## MarshallDog

Has anyone ever tried Svetlana Power (EL34) and Per-Amp (12AX7) tubes? If so, what do/did you think of their tone? Are they bright with a lot of high end or are they more rich and thick sounding lets say as compared to reissue Mullards and JJs. I have read many reviews but wanted to see what Marshall Forum members have to say.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Svetlana EL34 has about the least bottom end of any EL34 tube. It is very punchy in the mids. Translation. In a band mix, it should sound okay, but for private use it may sound thin.

Their 12AX7 is marginal. It is very close in tone to an EH, except the EH has on average more gain than the Svetlana.

Are you looking for a new set of tubes for an amp?


----------



## MarshallDog

Thanks for the info Marty, doesn't sound like these would be what I am looking for. I do have several EH per and power tubes so I know how they sound. I'm not really looking for new tubes and have a good collection of new reissue tubes and some NOS RFT's, JAN 5751's and Jan 12AX7WA's. I really like the JJ's in my amps but like most gear heads, always looking for something different to try.

Did you see The Tube Store has the NOS Brimar ECC83 available for 110.00 each, never tried these but that is a lot a coin to gamble on and then if you fall in love with them you'll want more. Whats you thoughts on these in JCM, JMP amps?


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Yes, it is strange. It's there though. It looks like the envelope was injection molded.
> 
> Hey Mickey, I picked up a Crate Blue Voodoo BV120H half stack yesterday and I've been rolling some tubes in it. It really responds well to some quality glass. Can you take a look at the schematic and verify the gain stages? It looks like V1A is common to both channels and V1B is the second gain stage for the clean channel V2 and V3 appear to finish off the gain stages for channel 2. I have four NOS TungSol 5881's in the power amp. I was pleasantly surprised by the tone. The amp is much better than it's reputation would lead you to believe.
> 
> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/77904849/105XXH1.pdf


You read it correctly.  
It looks like it would have some nice grind and those NOS 5881s will certainly help.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MarshallDog said:


> Did you see The Tube Store has the NOS Brimar ECC83 available for 110.00 each, never tried these but that is a lot a coin to gamble on and then if you fall in love with them you'll want more. Whats you thoughts on these in JCM, JMP amps?



Well I will say that back in the day, Marshall could have went with Mullard or Brimar for preamp tubes and they went with Mullard. I don't know if this had to do with the fact that Brimar didn't make any EL34's.

I have very little experience with Brimars. They don't seem to have the same midrange bloom and punch of a Mullard. To me they lean more towards an Amperex in tone.

Still a great tube, but that's a pretty whacky price considering what they go for on EBAY.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey, remember when we were talking about Mullard GZ34's on EBAY? You said there were a couple that were still low in price. One was used and it went for $53 which was a fair price. I forgot to follow some of the others.

I did however follow a pair of NOS GZ34's where the bid was in the mid $50's for several days. The auction ended about an hour ago. Final price, $282.

As I said, some of these listings look like a great deal and in the final 30 seconds the price goes through the ceiling.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, I notice that. If I am interested in an auction like that I will place my maximum bid and walk away, then check back later to see how high it went or if I lucked out. I saw a metal base fo for several hundred too.


----------



## damienbeale

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes, I notice that. If I am interested in an auction like that I will place my maximum bid and walk away, then check back later to see how high it went or if I lucked out. I saw a metal base fo for several hundred too.



Stuff that, that just pushes the price up early. I use auction sniper, and then don't go back to look. If I do win, bonus.


----------



## mickeydg5

Sneaky bastard, so that is you. 

I should add I may do some of my own sniping from time to time.


----------



## keennay

damienbeale said:


> Stuff that, that just pushes the price up early. I use auction sniper, and then don't go back to look. If I do win, bonus.



Yeah, not to rag on ya Mickey but that doesn't really help anyone except the seller by driving the price high early. I usually bid my maximum bid within the last 12 seconds and see what happens.


----------



## mickeydg5

keennay said:


> Yeah, not to rag on ya Mickey but that doesn't really help anyone except the seller by driving the price high early. I usually bid my maximum bid within the last 12 seconds and see what happens.


No, now wait. When I do this my maximum bid is still quite low compared to the average current bids on that type of object. When I said lucky I meant really lucky at the low bid I would submit. The items usually sell for much more than I bid. If I am serious about the item then I do my own sniping.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, okay fellas. You are talking to Mr. Ebay. I snipe my bid with 4 seconds on the clock. The current price starts rapidly changing and is updated real time. If at 6 seconds or so the bid exceeds my snipe bid, well it's too late to put in a different amount and it really doesn't matter as my bid would have been all I wanted to spend.

There is one little drawback to snipe bidding. "Forgetting about the auction all together."

I'm like Mickey some of the time. I see something that has been listed for over four days with 0 to 1 bids and I will bid my max amount. If I win, cool. However, I have forgotten about auctions I was watching and disappointed when I see that a particular item sold below what my max bid would have been.

I sometimes follow around 30 auctions at one time. I sometimes lose out, because I was planning on snipe bidding and wasn't watching the time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was a young kid on MLP with an Orange Micro Terror that was wanting to reduce his gain. He had tried a CP 5751 (which from my experience is really just a lower gain 12AX7). I told him if he paid for shipping I would send him a 12AV7 (which is very close to a 12AY7) and a really weak NEC 12AD7. The AD7 tested below 50 percent. The AV7 tested at 78 percent.

He went to try them and both tubes were really pushing the amp. He ended up going with the Philco 12AV7.

It just goes to show how much oomph a weak tube has.

BTW-I only kept 9 out of the 25 Black Plates I bought. I'm very sad. I probably at some point will regret not keeping them, but most of the ones I returned tested below 65 percent.

I had a wholesaler from New Jersey that I was buying Black Plates from and he sold me 28 organ pulls and the lowest tube tested at 31 which is near 90 percent on my B and K. So out of 65 Black Plates I returned 42 of them. That really sucks, but I don't sell weak tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> There was a young kid on MLP with an Orange Micro Terror that was wanting to reduce his gain. He had tried a CP 5751 (which from my experience is really just a lower gain 12AX7). I told him if he paid for shipping I would send him a 12AV7 (which is very close to a 12AY7) and a really weak NEC 12AD7. The AD7 tested below 50 percent. The AV7 tested at 78 percent.


He does understand what the GAIN knob does, right?

Throwing a lower amplification tube into a circuit while diming the controls may not make a lot of difference in that amplifier.

Of course he could try actual 12AY7 and 12AU7 tubes including the 12AV7, maybe in both slots or some combination of the two. But still, lowering GAIN would help a lot.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as I said to him, maxing out your amp with a 12AV7 is not going to make a hell of a lot of difference over a 12AX7. He found that out, but he said he got more clean headroom before distortion with the 12AV7 which is what he wanted.

I was thoroughly surprised by the performance of that weak 12AD7.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I finally secured some I61 and I63 Mullard's. Damn they are getting hard to find, unless you want to pay full retail for them. There is an epidemic of fake Mullard listings on EBAY. Some of them must have been reported or the seller was notified by a concerned buyer (like me), as the listings have been revised or taken down.


----------



## mickeydg5

A weak 12AD7 is still a 100u (amplification factor) tube. It just takes a little more signal at the grid to hit the same output levels. It will be just as loud but have more compression/overdrive due to the lower Gm and higher input signal.

But it also needs to known what he was doing with the GAIN control for each tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well this is why I sort of regret sending back the low testing Black Plates. They probably would have worked just fine in a guitar amp, but I have had customers that have tried a 26-26 tube versus a 32-32 tube and they buy the 32-32 every time. I have a couple of respected guys here on the forum that I have sent batches of tubes to (like I used to do in the old days) so they could test them out. The bottom line is the overall performance of the stronger tubes was noticeable with all settings being the same.

I would just get a bad feeling for selling someone a weak testing tube.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I see what you are saying and should have added that into my previous post.

The weaker tube having less headroom and changed characteristics will sound less brilliant. That goes for power tubes as well. Age and breakdown will dull the frequency range.

I would go for the high scorers too because I like brilliance. Those that are looking for a decent soundstage, more compression and less highs may however want the weaker tubes.

As long as the buyer understands what they are wanting and buying then all is good. A good old stock weak tube is better than crappier new of the shelf weak tube of which there are a lot out there.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Now you are making me feel even worse. I just don't like buying tubes that test low. 

I might have to rethink this if I want to keep selling tubes. With the Black Plates I dropped my test requirements to 75 percent and I still only got a fraction of the lot.


----------



## mickeydg5

I do not understand why you feel bad. Do not. You need to collect and sell in the manner that satisfies you.

Just keep in mind there are options. You can sonically test to back up numbers and track various reactions. Make it fun. Sell them accordingly. The life test will give you indication of longevity and risk. I would not sell something that is going to crap out sooner than later if you get me.


----------



## RiverRatt

I always like to test my weak tubes in an amp. Some sound awful, some are dull and lifeless, and some sound great. There's really no other way to tell. You guys ever heard of microwaving a weak and/or gassy tube just long enough to get a good spark? The theory is that you burn up any gases in the tube with the first flash. I've tried it with my throw-away tubes. The filament burns out about 90% of the time. The ones that don't usually test about the same. I had one Sylvania 12AX7 go from a 50% tube to as-new. Not very good odds, but at least you have nothing to lose in trying.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is the ticket RiverRatt. That is why I mentioned testing sonically. If it sounds awful then toss it.

Oh boy we are going to have a microwaving trend now. 
I just wonder how much damage that is actually doing.


----------



## lordquilton

Hey fella's, are these worth paying attention to?

5X JAN 5751 Tubes Philips | eBay

Being untested I know it's a gamble, but do any of you have some expererience or info you would like to share on these tubes?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Those as you know are lower gain tubes than a 12AX7.

Those are late production JAN's. They are ruggedized for military application. The plate structure is thicker. This is good for demanding non audio applications, but as far as using them in a guitar amp they are pretty stiff and sterile sounding.


----------



## lordquilton

Okay, thanks Marty


----------



## MartyStrat54

So you think sixty bucks is a lot of money for a V1?






Mullard Master 10M 7025 12AX7 ECC83 Qty 4 Gold Pins from Great Britain Super | eBay

I got a hold of ten strong Mullard I61 7025's that looked and tested as NOS. These were very similar to the 10M. They lasted two days and they were all gone. The feedback I received on them were excellent.

You don't see a lot of Mullard 7025's.

EDIT-They went for $1100.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> Oh boy we are going to have a microwaving trend now.
> I just wonder how much damage that is actually doing.



Well like I said, the filaments dont often survive. I read about it on some forum a while back and I don't remember their success rate but you're much more likely to completely destroy the tube than improve it. That's why I only tried it with tubes I was going to toss anyway. It does make for a pretty light show though.


----------



## RiverRatt

BTW, I got my Martimus Maximus tube set today. I'm using my ribbed plate Tele in V1, and Marty's RFT in V2 and the two Raytheon black plates he sent in V3 and V4. As expected, all the fizz and harshness is gone and the amp sounds f'ing great! It never ceases to amaze me how most amps that get a bad reputation sound 100X better with some quality tubes. Yeah, I'm pretty happy with my $250 Blue Doodoo. It smokes the Lead 1 & 2 settings on my old DSL50.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've run an RFT behind a ribbed Tele and it ain't bad at all.

I didn't know you were going to use the RFT in V2. When you told me you were looking for something dark and punchy, I thought you were trying to tame a bright amp.


----------



## Marshall Art

MartyStrat54 said:


> So you think sixty bucks is a lot of money for a V1?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mullard Master 10M 7025 12AX7 ECC83 Qty 4 Gold Pins from Great Britain Super | eBay
> 
> I got a hold of ten strong Mullard I61 7025's that looked and tested as NOS. These were very similar to the 10M. They lasted two days and they were all gone. The feedback I received on them were excellent.
> 
> You don't see a lot of Mullard 7025's.
> 
> EDIT-They went for $1100.



Holy grail Mullards.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've never seen any red tip Sylvania's and they damn sure ain't worth what he is asking.

(I think someone used momma's nail polish thinking he could pull a fast one.)






OTOH, I have seen red tipped CBS 12AX7's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I meant to post this a week or so ago. This little item came up on EBAY and I thought that it would be nice to have in my shipping room. It was made by General Cement (odd name for a tube related accessory). Very high quality steel 7 and 9 pin straightener.


----------



## Marshall Art

That would be handy.


----------



## solarburn

Yeah I like the tube pin straighteners.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have one of these.


----------



## mickeydg5

I know around the golden age or so there were graded tubes with marked tips like red, yellow and blue. Some organ companies would grab premium tubes.

What year(s) do you suspect for production of that Baldwin set?
I am not trusting them though.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've run an RFT behind a ribbed Tele and it ain't bad at all.
> 
> I didn't know you were going to use the RFT in V2. When you told me you were looking for something dark and punchy, I thought you were trying to tame a bright amp.



I was looking for a particular sound and the RFT was a great suggestion. In that amp, V1A is the first gain stage for both channels and V1B finishes off Channel 1. V2 and V3 arel gain stages 2-5 for Channel 2. V4 is the PI. 

The main complaint with the Blue Voodoo is fizzy distortion, and the forums are full of people using everything from 5751's down to 12AU7's in V1 and V4 trying to "tame" the distortion. I played around with that and it made the clean channel sound great but the distortion channel sounded flat and sterile.

I knew I wanted all 12AX7's in the amp, and I knew that the Tele, RFT and Raytheons were very clear-sounding tubes. I rolled them in all four spots and ended up liking the Tele in V1 and the RFT in V2 the best. It sounded great with them in any order but they complimented each other the most with that line-up. Before, the Presence control made the amp sound brittle and harsh. Now, I can use it with the Mid control for a classic rock tone or roll it off and scoop the mids for more of a metal sound. 

I have a Tungsram and a pre-war Ei on the way. I'm really looking forward to seeing what the Tungsram adds to the mix. They are one of my all-time favorite Marshall tubes and I think it will be good in this amp too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I sort of screwed up on some Tungsrams. It was a lot of six and they didn't test all that great. Well when I went to snipe I got a different screen than usual. (I guess EBAY updated it.) Anyway, while I was looking at it, the auction ended and all six went for $68. That's not bad for 70-75 percent Tungsram. If you follow them on EBAY they are high. I did find two that test at 85 percent and I paid $46 for them. I didn't snipe these, I just put a max bid on them and won. The pickings are slim on EBAY for Tungsrams.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I know around the golden age or so there were graded tubes with marked tips like red, yellow and blue. Some organ companies would grab premium tubes.
> 
> What year(s) do you suspect for production of that Baldwin set?
> I am not trusting them though.



That looks more like a pink red. It could have been someone's personal code for their tubes. I've seen that before. The organ companies got the premium tubes. There was no need for tube companies to mark the tubes. If this was the case, they would be all over the place. I have never seen any color tipped Sylvania's.

The color coding could be found on some European brands.

It's hard to pinpoint an exact year, but I would say pre-1964. A lot of organ companies switched over to 12AU7's for the tone generators around 1961-62, but some models still used 12AX7's. By 1965 all the USA organs were solid state.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> I have one of these.



Really? Same brand?

All I had were the plastic 7 and 9 pin straighteners on my tube tester. This unit does a better job.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Really? Same brand?
> 
> All I had were the plastic 7 and 9 pin straighteners on my tube tester. This unit does a better job.


Yes General Cement, Rockford ILL. U.S.A.

I have some of the flatter plastic ones too. I have also seen solid billet ones too which show up sometimes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found these in an old repair shop.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's a heavy duty Rudy, RiverRatt.

I like mine, because it can be mounted.

You know how much it would cost to make something like these pin straighteners nowadays here in the USA?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yes, things that can be mounted are always good to have around 

I have some individual ones like yours Marty, plus a couple with what appears to be some sort of sleeve to be worn over your finger? I'll see if I can find them and post photos. Those CBS-Hytron straighteners were my favorites. I had several at one time but since I moved I have no idea which box they ended up in. There are a couple of good ones mounted in the lid of my TV-7.


----------



## RiverRatt

One more thing about the steel billet models: you have to be careful to not let the tube base impact the metal. It's easy to chip or crack the base.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah I sort of screwed up on some Tungsrams. It was a lot of six and they didn't test all that great. Well when I went to snipe I got a different screen than usual. (I guess EBAY updated it.) Anyway, while I was looking at it, the auction ended and all six went for $68. That's not bad for 70-75 percent Tungsram. If you follow them on EBAY they are high. I did find two that test at 85 percent and I paid $46 for them. I didn't snipe these, I just put a max bid on them and won. The pickings are slim on EBAY for Tungsrams.



I got a single that appears to be a strong NOS for $28. I think $30 is a pretty good price for a tube of that quality. Since I'm not reselling them, it's easier for me to shop singles.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well NOS Tungsrams are going for the same price as Telefunkens and Valvos.


----------



## lordquilton

Hey Marty,
That Mullard you sent me is freakin' awesome! Just love the dynamics on that thing, can't wait to hear it sing again tomorrow.

All the tubes you sent me made a real difference, still experimenting with V2 though. When I've settled some more I was thinking of putting something in the DSL 40c thread.

Now I know you try to buy tubes in larger amounts, but I was wondering if you could have a look at these and tell me what you might bid for them.

Assorted Premium 12AX7 ECC83 Audio Twin Triodes Valve Audio AMP | eBay

Worth a throw of the dice?


----------



## mickeydg5

That is a nice set of tubes for rolling and spares especially if truely at 95%. I would expect the price to go up but who knows.

A red tip slant getter Miniwatt.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Philips labeled tube second from the left is a smooth plate and Philips didn't make a smooth plate. My guess on that is it a late 70's relabel of an Ei.

The MiniWatt could be a slant getter Valvo, because MiniWatt never made a slant getter that I am aware of.


----------



## mickeydg5

I figured the slant getter may just be relabeled to Miniwatt, still should be an excellent tube.

I saw the smooth plate figuring Ei, still good for rolling.

I wonder how high the bidding on this group will go???


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's an AU listing. It may go as high as $150AU, if not higher.

As you said, it would make a great set of V1 rolling tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5




----------



## MartyStrat54

I took a quick look at the AU EBAY listing for 12AX7's. Holy shit, $68AU for a Sylvania. Based on the prices I am seeing (and there isn't very much to choose from) I would say that set of four tubes might end up going for a scary amount.

No wonder I have a lot of AU customers. My prices are a bargain.


----------



## MartyStrat54

lordquilton said:


> Hey Marty,
> That Mullard you sent me is freakin' awesome! Just love the dynamics on that thing, can't wait to hear it sing again tomorrow.



Did you get one of those Mullard 7025's that I had? I think you got one.


----------



## RiverRatt

I missed a Valvo that went to a sniper for around $16. No other bids on it until about 5 seconds to go I was focusing on an i61 Mullard and lost both.


----------



## mickeydg5

I looked at Australian ebay and saw some really decent to nice type tubes from $20 to $40 a pop average.

Australia is .91 on our dollar.


----------



## lordquilton

"Did you get one of those Mullard 7025's that I had? I think you got one."

Yes that's right 32/33. It's wild. About the only thing I didn't like was the low mid "tightness"- hard to explain! 
This is all stock- https://soundcloud.com/lordquilton/stock-red-2 
This is Maximus- https://soundcloud.com/lordquilton/mullard-red-2 
Heh, "maximus" indeed! Thing that bothers me is that very last note, with the stock tube in V1 you get a definition on the bottom strings and that sort of moan on the last note. I tried putting the stock back in V1; and put the Mullard right back in again! The clips are handy when you go back over the day's experiments, but in person the amp is just so much more "larger than life" with the Mullard in V1. Stuck my overdrive in front of green/crunch, the Mullard just gets better, not harsh like the stock tube. Goddamn it sounds good! 

So at this point I have a stock in V2, seem to have got some of my "moan" back, at the expense of adding back in some of the brittleness. Gonna stick the Raytheon BP in V3 later to see what happens.
Got an EH 12AX7 High Gain coming from Tube Depot in about a week, just to try out. If you have anything you want to suggest from your stock Marty, please don't hesitate.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I wish I had 20 of those Mullard 7025's so I could allow other guys to experience how great they sound in V1. They went so fast, I was sad to see them go.


----------



## lordquilton

mickeydg5 said:


> I looked at Australian ebay and saw some really decent to nice type tubes from $20 to $40 a pop average.
> 
> Australia is .91 on our dollar.



Hey now, settle down you blokes!
Got a feeling there will be enough snipers at this party without you guy's taking shots from across the pond!


----------



## Marshall Art

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish I had 20 of those Mullard 7025's so I could allow other guys to experience how great they sound in V1. They went so fast, I was sad to see them go.



How much were they a piece?


----------



## lordquilton

$60


----------



## MartyStrat54

They all tested above 95 percent.


----------



## lordquilton

Just out of curiosity, what year do you think they were Marty?


----------



## MartyStrat54

There is a date code near the bottom. It starts with a "B" for Blackburn. They are early 60's production.

Post the code and I can tell you what year it was made.


----------



## RiverRatt

Oh lord yes. The Tungsram is here and it has taken over V1. Presence, crunch, grind, growl.... I need a cigarette.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got mine today and they both test over 33. One is a 33-36 and the other is 34-33. They look like new.

Damn I wish I hadn't of spaced out on that lot of six. That was my fault.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thinking about getting some new shirts made in rocker black with a new image on the back and no email and phone number. Because of all the colors used they will be sold at my cost of around $25 per shirt, plus shipping. (Final cost to be determined when I'm ready to place the order.) Due to the cost, this will be an extremely limited run. Note: The front logo will have a white outline so that the logo doesn't blend in with the black shirt.


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool shirt! 

My Tungsram is around 85%. They are usually really high gain but this one is used. Does anyone know if Tungsram was ever an OEM supplier for Marshall? The tube has ECC83 in red print and what looks like the capital M from the Marshall logo still on it. I've never seen that before.


----------



## Marshall Art

lordquilton said:


> $60





MartyStrat54 said:


> They all tested above 95 percent.



Oh man I missed out big time!


----------



## Riffraff

MartyStrat54 said:


> I wish I had 20 of those Mullard 7025's so I could allow other guys to experience how great they sound in V1. They went so fast, I was sad to see them go.



I got one too and all I have to say is 
I had a really strong Hammond labeled I63 Mullard in V1 that I thought sounded really good but there was a night and day difference when I plugged in the 7025. Definitely my holy grail tube.


----------



## lordquilton

mickeydg5 said:


>



 Might need to change my forum name to Maxwell Smart.

*Hi lordquilton -*

*You bid AU $147.50. The auction just ended at AU $148.87.*



Oh, and thanks for your thoughts guys, I appreciate it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

So your max bid wasn't high enough? I've had that happen to me many times. That is actually a pretty good price for four solid tubes. I probably would have gone $40 per tube based on the fact that the seller stated they tested stout.


----------



## lordquilton

Heh, yeah I'm over it now. But at the time to see I had I had been "out-sniped" by such a small margin was sort of exasperating. That's Ebay huh?

Like if the winner had bid the $160 that would have been okay see?
On reflection, I feel may have been a tad greedy! Considering the "select" kind of CP tubes average $35-40 by the time they get over here. 
Ah well, we live and learn...


----------



## mickeydg5

You have to expect a group like that would be sniped from several angles.


----------



## Riffraff

Good old Ebay. My favorite is when you bid on something that most buyers could care less about and the item has been sitting dormant forever then you get outbid minutes later because the seller is trying to drive up the sell price. I immediately walk away when that happens. 

I sometimes snipe even when there are no bids just to avoid that BS.


----------



## MartyStrat54

lordquilton said:


> Heh, yeah I'm over it now. But at the time to see I had I had been "out-sniped" by such a small margin was sort of exasperating. That's Ebay huh?
> 
> Like if the winner had bid the $160 that would have been okay see?
> On reflection, I feel may have been a tad greedy! Considering the "select" kind of CP tubes average $35-40 by the time they get over here.
> Ah well, we live and learn...



The winner probably did bid over $160, but because of EBAY auto bid, he only had to come up with enough to beat your high bid.

When I'm bidding on tubes and it is getting down to the wire, I know that the current price I am seeing is at least $20 lower than what that particular person has entered as a max bid.

For example, there are four tubes up for sale. There is a minute left to bid. The current price is $160. Well I figure that whoever made that bid has at least a max bid of $180, so I will bid $200 and hope that I win it for $182.

As I said before, sometimes I'm ready to snipe with 4 seconds left and before I hit the bid button, someone exceeds my max bid. You just never know.


----------



## Marshall Art

I never bid on eBay. I don't have the time. I only search buy it now listings.


----------



## Georgiatec

MartyStrat54 said:


> The winner probably did bid over $160, but because of EBAY auto bid, he only had to come up with enough to beat your high bid.
> 
> When I'm bidding on tubes and it is getting down to the wire, I know that the current price I am seeing is at least $20 lower than what that particular person has entered as a max bid.
> 
> For example, there are four tubes up for sale. There is a minute left to bid. The current price is $160. Well I figure that whoever made that bid has at least a max bid of $180, so I will bid $200 and hope that I win it for $182.
> 
> As I said before, sometimes I'm ready to snipe with 4 seconds left and before I hit the bid button, someone exceeds my max bid. You just never know.



I do the same Marty. 5 seconds to go hit the confirm button. That way you either win or not....if someone has deeper pockets and goes higher so be it. I don't use a snipe programme though....where's the fun in that? I was really surprised the other day I picked up two good testing Mullard XF2 EL34's for £32.00.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is great price for XF2 tubes. Let us know how they do.


----------



## lordquilton

I generally just "buy it now" on Ebay too. I think it's a great way to get the little stuff, like Dunlop Tortex at 63 cents each. But this one was too good to pass up. On the whole bidding for things stresses me out too much, but if I _had_ won- hey I'd be feeling like King Shit of Turd Mountain right now!

I clicked the Bid button in the last 15 seconds, the the current bid was like $45.00 or something. I think you're bang on Marty, I was out-sniped with a more realistic max bid.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sometimes I am watching up to 30 auctions at the same time. It can be really time consuming and then it is a big let down if I loose out on an item. I hate it when several items both expire within seconds of each other so I can only snipe bid on one and max bid on the other. Max bidding usually doesn't cut it on tube listings. There is a lot of snipe bidding going on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Georgiatec said:


> I was really surprised the other day I picked up two good testing Mullard XF2 EL34's for £32.00.



Well I assume they are the single getter xF2's? There have been numerous pairs of single getters listed on the USA EBAY for around $110 Buy It Now auctions and no one buys them. Very strange.


----------



## mickeydg5

Most like the challenge of the game.
Start the auction at $69.99 and it will probably hit $110 or higher anyway. But there is always the chance you may pick them up for $90. That is what they look for when searching items.


----------



## Georgiatec

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I assume they are the single getter xF2's? There have been numerous pairs of single getters listed on the USA EBAY for around $110 Buy It Now auctions and no one buys them. Very strange.



I haven't received them yet Marty. The picture on the auction has reflection right over the getters so can't tell from that either. The guy has marked them as dispatched, so hoping they arrive today. I'll post some pics when (if) they arrive. 

Another EBay tactic I employ is looking for amps and cabs by postcode. We go on holiday to a remote part of Wales. If people are selling amps for collection only in this area they always go for low prices....a couple of years ago a 425a cab went for £75.00, unfortunately not when we were going there. I always have a quick browse now before we go away.


----------



## Georgiatec

OOps....senior moment.  It seems I didn't win the auction for 2 xf2's, the one I did win was for 2 xf3's. I was in the game for 4 or 5 listings and I kinda confused myself which one I actually won  
Anyways here they are. Very similar date codes B3K2 & B3K4...is that 1963 or '73?. Both test good on my Orange VT-1000. One scored a 10 the other a 9, which is as good as anything I have EL34 wise. KT66's seem to hit 13 & 14's, but 10 is the best score I've had from any EL34.
Pin 6 is missing from both valves...nothing connected to where it would be inside the valves....is this by design and correct or is something amiss?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That would be a 1973 production tube. xF3's weren't made in 1963.

Those tubes look to be in the low 80's based on what I know about VT-1000's. Still a lot of good life left in them.

Pin 6 is omitted. It is not used.


----------



## RiverRatt

Here's a nice $15 eBay tube. It's a NOS Ei relabeled by National. I had the only bid on it. It tests at 58-59 on my TV-7. Marty, that would be around 39 on the B&K.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, what is your assessment of the Ei's? I have quite a few and I'm afraid to sell them due to the possibility of them going microphonic.

What is your description of their tone?


----------



## RiverRatt

Good tone, a little brighter than I like but a good tube to have when you're dialing in an amp. This one is too hot for the Voodoo but should be fine in the Tweaker. I've only used them in heads but I've not noticed them to be any more prone to go microphone than any other tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah I think the Ei's are brighter than a Herleen made tube. Even brighter than a smooth plate Telefunken.

The later production tubes have quite a history of becoming microphonic due to poor quality control.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Speaking of Ei's, there is an EBAY seller that has an auction for 5 "Made in Gt. Britain" 12AX7's. There are 25 bidders so far and the current bid is $150. The tubes are actually smooth plate Ei's. There is only 5 hours left in the auction. Some ignorant buyer is thinking he is getting Mullards. That's too bad.

I sent the seller a message letting him know that the tubes are not made in Gt. Britain.

RCA 12AX7 ECC83 Lot of 5 Vintage Tubes Mullard Made in Great Britain Tested | eBay






The one on the far left may be a late production Mullard. I think it has ribbed plates. It definitely has a different plate structure than the one's in the middle.


----------



## MartyStrat54

MartyStrat54 said:


> I've never seen any red tip Sylvania's and they damn sure ain't worth what he is asking.
> 
> (I think someone used momma's nail polish thinking he could pull a fast one.)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OTOH, I have seen red tipped CBS 12AX7's.



Well here is an update. I am wrong. From the looks of it, Baldwin Sylvania's can have red tips. It is common knowledge that the organ companies received the cream of the crop (and is why I perfer organ branded tubes). I guess in the early 60's these specially picked tubes were marked by Sylvania.

Here are some 1962 Red Tip Sylvania EL84 Black Plates.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

can one of the guru's id this one?






probably the dead give away is the metal that goes up into the getter...

The tube is a 12AX7 that was in a SWR bass head. Production date 1999-2002.


----------



## RiverRatt

That's a JJ.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Why can't everybody take a nice tube picture like that. Dogs must have a nice digital camera.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Alan, tell JEB how you feel about a Tungsram in V1.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> That's a JJ.


I had thought so, but I checked it to one I had & it didn't seem to match. I didn't check too close, because I checked it against a ECC81...

I checked it again against a ECC83s & sure enough...

Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

You can always tell a JJ because they are made just like an ECC88/6DJ8. I don't know why they followed that design but it drives me crazy because I have several 6DJ8's that don't have writing on them and I'm never sure which tube is which.

Marty, I thought I had already done the Tungsram thing. They are incredible V1tubes in a Marshall style preamp. They really deliver the goods. The highs and mids are never harsh and the lows are full and punchy but not muddy at all.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well here is an update. I am wrong. From the looks of it, Baldwin Sylvania's can have red tips. It is common knowledge that the organ companies received the cream of the crop (and is why I perfer organ branded tubes). I guess in the early 60's these specially picked tubes were marked by Sylvania.
> 
> Here are some 1962 Red Tip Sylvania EL84 Black Plates.



Actually, the Baldwin branded also came as green tips and yellow tips too. I'll dig through my tubes to see if I still have a green tip.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well personally I've never seen a painted tip on a Sylvania and I have sold/seen hundreds of them.

I wonder what the different colors represented?


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, I thought I had already done the Tungsram thing. They are incredible V1tubes in a Marshall style preamp. They really deliver the goods. The highs and mids are never harsh and the lows are full and punchy but not muddy at all.



You did. I just wanted JEB to see it, but he decided on trying a Mullard.


----------



## bman

Hi, what preamp tubes would you recommend to tame a little fuzz in my dsl combo?


----------



## solarburn

bman said:


> Hi, what preamp tubes would you recommend to tame a little fuzz in my dsl combo?



Try this in V1.

Ruby tube AC7HG+. Same as a TAD or Preferred Series.

Let the speaker break in and bias amp between 34mv to 38mv with a PV range from 450-470V.

Marty can add on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I talked to Bman a little while ago, Solar. You nailed my V1 recommendation, but it is an AC5. Ruby doesn't make an AC7. I think in the past I might have called it an AC7. If so, that was my error.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I got my tee shirts order for those that wanted one and I found out that the tee shirt company had a software problem and it gave me the wrong pricing. Instead of $25 each they are actually $15 each. Big difference.

I also found out that I can get a great price on these if I order under 20 shirts. I may try to make another small order in the future once I get some feedback from the guys who bought them.

I went with Fruit Of The Loom Heavy Cotton tees this time, but I found out they are actually a little thinner than the Gildan 2000 shirts I used on the originals. I was assured that the FOTL shirts are high quality. The Heavy Cotton has a more tapered fit compared to the Gildan 2000.

I can't wait to see what they look like. Blue Cotton told me that the printing looks better on the Heavy Cotton shirts.


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I talked to Bman a little while ago, Solar. You nailed my V1 recommendation, but it is an AC5. Ruby doesn't make an AC7. I think in the past I might have called it an AC7. If so, that was my error.




They are discontinued but available...for a time. Warm and crunchy.

Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Now I remember that there was an AC7HG+, so I didn't make a mistake after all. 

I wonder why they discontinued them? On Ruby's website they don't even mention them and they have the AC5HG+ listed as their best and quietest tube.

I doubt if I could tell the difference between the two.


----------



## solarburn

I actually have both versions and you're prolly right about them sounding the same. I haven't used the AC5 in V1 but the AC7 is tits.

The description for both read the same.


----------



## Guitar-Rocker

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well personally I've never seen a painted tip on a Sylvania and I have sold/seen hundreds of them.
> 
> I wonder what the different colors represented?




Marty, I think that I lied earlier, in that I've only seen the red tips on Baldwin branded 12ax7's, but seen all 3 colors on the Baldwin branded 6BQ5's. Below is a quad of "green tipped" Baldwin branded 6BQ5's. I think they are actually the Raytheon Matsushiti's?


----------



## damienbeale

Dogs of Doom said:


> can one of the guru's id this one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> probably the dead give away is the metal that goes up into the getter...
> 
> The tube is a 12AX7 that was in a SWR bass head. Production date 1999-2002.



I don't think that's a JJ at all.

I think that's a frame grid Tesla E83CC.



Actually 2nd thoughts, from the shape of the glass envelope at the top it probably is a very early JJ, but it's still a frame grid tube. It MAY be freaking awesome. But then, it may have the typical JJ quality to it. It's certainly frame grid structure, so in theory ought to kick arse over just about anything in production now.

I've still yet to pick any of these up. And I'm itching to try some (even the JJ "fakes"). Those and a Mazda silverplate...

Wait... I take it all back. Focusing on the wrong part and missing the obvious. That isn't a frame grid tube at all, but a bog standard JJ. 

Edit: Just to add...
The E83CC is probably the sole reason why JJ use that structure. It was probably Tesla's most famous tube, and JJ probably developed as many ideas as they could from that tube into their later ECC83's, but without the expense of a more complex frame grid construction.


----------



## Steve Naples

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I actually have both versions and you're prolly right about them sounding the same. I haven't used the AC5 in V1 but the AC7 is tits.
> 
> The description for both read the same.



I'm running one of the AC5s in V1 on my DSL100H, to me it sounded like a NOS Mullard that I have, I63. They sound damn good.


----------



## damienbeale

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hey Alan, tell JEB how you feel about a Tungsram in V1.



I think Tungsrams absolutely kick arse in my 2204. I only have the one, and it was genuinely true NOS never installed. It sounded really crap for the first couple of hours and then the beast was slowly unleashed and it thickened right up. I must dig it out again and remind myself how it sounded. It was one of those that I had earmarked as too good for everyday use.

Wish I'd have bought more. The guy had quite a few at £20 apiece. This was about 6 years ago now though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tungsram have gone way up and they are hard to find.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found an old Silvertone reel-to-reel recorder today for $3 in an antique mall. It had a 1955 RCA black plate in it, but the cool thing is that it is basically a Silvertone 1481 guitar amp. I'm going to start from scratch but I intend to use what parts I can salvage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Really? What tubes does it use?


----------



## Marshall Art

damienbeale said:


> I think Tungsrams absolutely kick arse in my 2204. I only have the one, and it was genuinely true NOS never installed. It sounded really crap for the first couple of hours and then the beast was slowly unleashed and it thickened right up. I must dig it out again and remind myself how it sounded. It was one of those that I had earmarked as too good for everyday use.
> 
> Wish I'd have bought more. The guy had quite a few at £20 apiece. This was about 6 years ago now though.



Perhaps that is what the old school guys were talking about when they burned in equipment for 24hrs.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yeap. You have to get initial break in time to see where things are going to settle or if they will even hold up in some cases.


----------



## Marshall Art

And drift etc.


----------



## mickeydg5

Settle comes after drift. 

Messing with you but I know you get it.


----------



## Marshall Art

Anybody ever roll tubes in a Marshall Valvestate? I'm considering it in all of mine and was wondering which ones to try. My 8200 and Mode Four both have Marshall branded Shuguang tubes.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Try Telefunken...


----------



## Marshall Art

Thanks I'll keep that in mind. 

I found this on Mesa's site.


----------



## damienbeale

mickeydg5 said:


> Yeap. You have to get initial break in time to see where things are going to settle or if they will even hold up in some cases.



Especially with capacitors.


----------



## Marshall Art

Just noticed this thread is on page 420.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Really? I'm showing it to be on page 560.


----------



## Micky

It all depends on what your default page length is set to in the Control Panel.


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, the reel-to-reel uses a 12AU7, a 12AX7, a single 6V6 and a 6X5 rectifier. The 12AU7 is on a shock mounted plate and wouldn't be used in the guitar amp, so I was going to use a second 12AX7 as extra gain stages.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Micky said:


> It all depends on what your default page length is set to in the Control Panel.



It's set on the page length where I can still read what the fvck I see.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Marty, the reel-to-reel uses a 12AU7, a 12AX7, a single 6V6 and a 6X5 rectifier. The 12AU7 is on a shock mounted plate and wouldn't be used in the guitar amp, so I was going to use a second 12AX7 as extra gain stages.



I wondered if it had a 6X5. It's really strange that back in the good old days they felt the need for 5 and 6.3 filament voltages. The 6CA4/EZ81 and the 6X5 were really popular towards the end of the tube era. The 6CA4 could handle a lot of current and voltage for its size. Bogen used them on their 30/35 watt 7868 PA amps.

Speaking of the 7868. That's a great sounding guitar amp power tube. It's like an EL84 with a lot more headroom. 

If they weren't so damn scarce I would like to see Terry build an amp using them with say a JCM800 MV preamp. There are CP 7868's available, but they don't sound as good and the pins are thicker and will ruin a socket once you force them into place.


----------



## RiverRatt

I have a handful of NOS 6CA4's. I have always wanted to build a little Vox-style EL84 amp using that rectifier. Hell, I think I have at least one of every rectifier tube made. I have dozens of 5U4GB and 5Y3GT rectifiers.


----------



## alexisgt

Finally, i got some NOS ecc83 tubes for my JCM Slash 2555SL (Jubilee).

1. Tungsram
2. Raytheon (Black Long Plate) 
3. Sylvania 

I'm currently have Electro Harmonix.

So, i want some suggestions about the positioning.

I'm thinking for :

V1 - Tungsram
V2 - Raytheon (Black Long Plate) 
V3 - Sylvania 

What you would suggest?


----------



## MartyStrat54

That's the order, you nailed it. You must have been reading up on this thread.


----------



## alexisgt

Thanks for the reply!

I asked just to make sure.

Yeap! I have read a lot before i buy them. 
_(Especially your posts.. )_


----------



## lordquilton

solarburnDSL50 said:


> I actually have both versions and you're prolly right about them sounding the same. I haven't used the AC5 in V1 but the AC7 is tits.
> 
> The description for both read the same.




_"To eliminate the mechanical rattles, a new tighter tolerance mica supports were designed along with a new redesigned plate structure. New assembly controls were added to make the RUBY 12AX7AC7 free of mechanical rattles caused by the vibrations inherent in a high gain combo amp. The famous sweet tone on the Chinese 12AX7 tubes was preserved. In the process, a significant reduction in the microphonics were realized with this tube. The new tube has the same high gain as the very popular 12AX7AC5 tube, just quieter." _


----------



## solarburn

lordquilton said:


> _"To eliminate the mechanical rattles, a new tighter tolerance mica supports were designed along with a new redesigned plate structure. New assembly controls were added to make the RUBY 12AX7AC7 free of mechanical rattles caused by the vibrations inherent in a high gain combo amp. The famous sweet tone on the Chinese 12AX7 tubes was preserved. In the process, a significant reduction in the microphonics were realized with this tube. The new tube has the same high gain as the very popular 12AX7AC5 tube, just quieter." _



Thanks Bryan I hadn't seen that.


----------



## MartyStrat54

One question? If it is better than an AC5, why did they discontinue it?


----------



## solarburn

Good question.


----------



## lordquilton

Here's my guess based on nothing at all-
To try and recoup the R&D money spent on a less microphonic structure, they released the AC7 as something "special". The new improvements are now incorporated into the AC5.

Note that the ad copy I pasted above was from an Ebay listing for a _cryo_ AC7. In fact the seller seems to be Cryoset themselves in California. You see where I'm going with this?

Anyways, doesn't matter. Without the gold pins soaked in the blood of virgins sacrificed under the full moon, it ain't nothin'!


----------



## solarburn




----------



## MartyStrat54

I screwed up yesterday. I was watching a listing for three rare RFT 7025 gold pin tubes. The good thing is that it was a US seller. Well I was going to snipe it and forgot all about it. They went for $41 and $5.85 shipping.

Regular RFT's are over $28 from Bulgaria with $15 shipping.

6 months ago I was buying them direct from a guy in Russia. I should have bought more as he ran out. I was getting them at a really good price and they were all NOS RFT branded tubes. <sigh>


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> I screwed up yesterday. I was watching a listing for three rare RFT 7025 gold pin tubes. The good thing is that it was a US seller. Well I was going to snipe it and forgot all about it. They went for $41 and $5.85 shipping.
> 
> Regular RFT's are over $28 from Bulgaria with $15 shipping.
> 
> 6 months ago I was buying them direct from a guy in Russia. I should have bought more as he ran out. I was getting them at a really good price and they were all NOS RFT branded tubes. <sigh>



Most online sellers/stores are selling RFT's for $50 or more. I can get them at $40 if I don't mind that they are in fake boxes and the labels are mostly wore off. As long as the tube functions strongly I could give a shit about the cosmetics. Easy to make out an RFT.

Don't think I've seen gold pin RFT's being sold any where I go but I only go NOS tube shopping at 2 places. MM and Tubemonger.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe I am still kicking myself in the ass over what I did. Gold pin 7025 RFT's are available and I get distracted. Man it's been happening a lot lately. I think I need to get laid.

Maybe I should go over to the northeast side of Tulsa to one of those Chinese massage parlors that are always getting busted for giving more than a massage.


----------



## mickeydg5

Don't you just hate it when your teeth float?


----------



## damienbeale

Pretty sure Terry Kilgore was knocking RFT's out for way under $40, but it's been a while since I contacted him...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I was too when I was buying them cheap from the Ukraine. Instead of buying 50, I should have bought 100, but then that is a lot of money and I don't move a lot of RFT's.

It's funny that in six months the sellers have all gotten the mentality that an RFT should cost as much as a Mullard.


----------



## mickeydg5

Do not buy them at those prices unless it is actually relative to current market value.


----------



## solarburn

Marty I just found a real good combination for the DSL40C using the AC7HG+ in V1 and the AC5HG+ in V2. I'm still running V3 & PI stock. These ousted my RFT.

Bottom end thump increased across the modes and the strings are sounding more even and up front. Another cool positive result is the guitars tone knob changes more. I got all the warmth I like from the RFT back and even better texture wise and more tones when backing off volume along with the tone knob.

Just some neat changes happened. This DSL isn't responding to the NOS like my 50 watter did so what worked well in it is not panning out with this one. Course we're talking a combo with 70/80 speaker and smaller iron compared to a 412 of GB's and bigger iron.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I've been saying this for a while. The Chinese have invested in R and D and the Russian's haven't. Chinese tubes just keep getting better every year. It will eventually crash the vintage tube market, because why would you spend $60 on a used tube when you can get a new one for $22 that sounds as good?

Time for me to punch my time card and retire.


----------



## lordquilton

Well I'm new to this, but it seems to me that the new tubes aren't necessarily better, but that the newer circuits are built around CP tubes.
That's been my experience with the DSL 40C anyway.

If I had an older amp I'm not sure if the CP would do it for me.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I had a hard on for a Twister amp. They were supposed to be the cat's meow. There is a lot more to this story that I am not going to rehash, but I put NOS tubes in it and it sucked. The guy who built them had me send the amp back to him. I took all the NOS tubes out when I shipped it. He sends it back loaded with all Chinese tubes. He said he designed the amp around Shuguang's. I thought to myself, "Wow...I had this amp fitted with Sylvania 6CA7's a MiniWatt in V1, Black Plate in V2 and a Ribbed Plate Telefunken for the PI. Let's hear what she sounds like now?"

Plugged my guitar in and it sounded worse than ever.

I will say that some amps sound pretty much the same no matter what tubes you use. I think it is these sort of amps that make certain guys think that rolling tubes is a waste of time. 

I'm not a amp designer so I don't know what all is entailed when someone claims to build an amp around a certain brand of tubes. I know that most Chinese tubes are bright, so does it mean that the designer made the amp darker so that it will sound good with bright preamp tubes? I don't know. I have a hard time buying into it.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> He sends it back loaded with all Chinese tubes. He said he designed the amp around Shuguang's. Let's hear what she sounds like now?" Plugged my guitar in and it sounded worse than ever.
> 
> I'm not a amp designer so I don't know what all is entailed when someone claims to build an amp around a certain brand of tubes. I know that most Chinese tubes are bright, so does it mean that the designer made the amp darker so that it will sound good with bright preamp tubes? I don't know. I have a hard time buying into it.


That is about all it means.


----------



## Marshall Art




----------



## Dogs of Doom

Alan,

Here's a snap of one of those tubes you sent me, that I was asking about. The label is ½ gone, but it seems familiar...






The other one is still in the amp in the PI, but has no label at all...


----------



## Dogs of Doom

the whole tube:


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't remember it at all but it looks like a 1950's short plate Sylvania. Refresh my memory if you can. Since I got clean, my memory of the last 30 years isn't so good.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

It was in that grab bag of ECC82 tubes I got from you. I wasn't sure if the partial logo would give a hint...

The print on the back says:

12
AU7A
USA


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Anyone care to guess? Don't mean to put all the pressure on Alan, just I had asked him about a couple tubes I got off him (last year sometime) & figured I'd post it here, for info, incase anyone else had the same question...


----------



## mickeydg5

That last picture gives it away. See those brail looking dot patterns and the text style along with text separation amongst the lines; GE.
I thought it looked GE before but the last picture makes it definite.


----------



## RiverRatt

That stenciled tube number is exclusive to GE. I remember the tubes now. I was thinking it was a 12AX7. I still have a ton of 12AU7's, 12AV7's and 12AT7's, and 2 or 3 12DW7's. They are for the most part worthless. I wish I hadn't sold my little JMP-1 combo. It could use just about anything as an output tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah Mickey I kept thinking the mica didn't look Sylvania. If I had been thinking 12AU7 I might have gotten it the first time.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

cool, thanks guys...

I didn't know if the way they did the tube type would help or not. Do you think it was rebranded w/ an organ co's name?

I looked through literally thousands of 12AU7 images & the closest thing to the logo was the organ mfgrs...

I'll have to look at the other tube more closely & compare it to the others. I have quite a few GE, RCA, etc., from that bunch.

That Raytheon black plate sounds lively in the power position. The one I threw in the PI is just about the same in tone.


----------



## damienbeale

Marshall Art said:


>



Ha, that's me!!!!!


Or at least, it was, til' Marty broke my habit.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dogs of Doom said:


> cool, thanks guys...
> 
> I didn't know if the way they did the tube type would help or not. Do you think it was rebranded w/ an organ co's name?
> 
> I looked through literally thousands of 12AU7 images & the closest thing to the logo was the organ mfgrs...
> 
> I'll have to look at the other tube more closely & compare it to the others. I have quite a few GE, RCA, etc., from that bunch.
> 
> That Raytheon black plate sounds lively in the power position. The one I threw in the PI is just about the same in tone.



Okay, I think I have the logo. I knew it was something familiar and it just came to me; it looks like the remains of the Sencore logo. I borrowed this image from an eBay auction. What do you think?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, I bought some more NOS Tungsrams, but boy were they expensive. I'm going to have to sell them at a high price.

I bought three lots of four tubes.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, I think I have the logo. I knew it was something familiar and it just came to me; it looks like the remains of the Sencore logo. I borrowed this image from an eBay auction. What do you think?


That looks to be it!

Thanks, I looked all throughout google images w/ lots of search parameters w/o any luck...


----------



## RiverRatt

Marty, I might be interested if they test high. The one I have is strong but nowhere near NOS. PM me a price for just one.

Those two Sencore 12AU7's probably came from some obsolete piece of test equipment. I raided a couple of TV shops and I got several tubes from obsolete gear that wasn't worth bringing home. I'm really good at trivial things that I can't make money at, such as identifying quirky tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Alan, let me rephrase that. They are NOS tubes, but that doesn't mean they are going to test as NOS. If they all test above 30-30 on my 707 I'll be happy.

If you recall I bought some Tungsrams about two weeks ago and they tested very stout. I still have a couple of those left.

I'll send you a price.


----------



## Steve Naples

Hi Marty, do you still have any of those Mullard I61 and I63 tubes left? I would like to get one of each from you.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Argh!!!

I am really getting pissed over the alarming amount of tubes I am receiving that are being sold as "NOS," "Very Stout" and "Strong," only to recieve them and find out they are just plain, worn out tubes.

This seems to be the new trend as sellers are willing to gamble that the buyer does not own a tester. 

I bought some Mullards and everyone was below 60 percent. Those Tungsrams I bought that were touted as NOS? Well three of them were shot. They tested at 40 percent on one triode and 100+ on the other triode. I have to take my time, my packing materials and my money to get these shitty tubes returned. As I said, it really pisses me off.


----------



## Micky

Let them know you are gonna test them, and I will bet 60% pull the auction.


----------



## damienbeale

Micky said:


> Let them know you are gonna test them, and I will bet 60% pull the auction.



Yep. Pop a bid on, and send them a pic of your tester to let them know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I have been doing that when I buy large lots and I have had sellers cancel the transaction because they admit the tubes were never tested even though they listed test scores. Talk about ballsy SOB's. They even relist the tubes after cancelling their transaction with me.

I guess I will have to start letting every seller know that I will be testing their tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I sent this in regard to the shitty Mullards I got.



> I got your tubes today. I buy and sell tubes for guitar amps. I have a refurbished and calibrated B&K 707 transconductance tester. I tested your tubes after checking my testers with a known good tube. Both of your tubes tested horribly. Both tubes and both triodes were below 60 percent.
> 
> If these tubes tested "strong" on your B&K 167 "Emissions" tester, then I wouldn't trust it for nothing.
> 
> I buy up to 100 tubes each month. I test every tube I receive. I am seeing an alarming increase in the number of sellers listing worn out tubes as being good and posting "strong" test results. I have even told sellers after winning their auction that all the tubes would be tested. Several of them cancelled the transactions because they told me the tubes had never been tested, even though they posted "strong" test scores.
> 
> Now I have to take my time and spend my money to return your tubes. Not a very good transaction, wouldn't you agree?



Here is the response I got from the guy.



> Hello Marty Overbey,
> 
> James Benedict (jamesbenedict01@XXXXmail.com) has issued a full refund for your
> payment.
> 
> Message from merchant: Toss the tubes sorry



He then sent me this.



> I will refund. My tester never given false readings before and tubes did not drop emissions at reduced filament voltage either.



If he truly believes this, than he would have requested that I send the tubes back rather than telling me to toss them. Bottom line is he knew they were junk. That B&K 167 is not a very good tester. Lately I have been avoiding buying tubes tested on an emissions tester unless they have crazy high scores. A lot of emissions tester have scales that go up to 130 or 140. On these units a tube that tests at 100 will read at less than 75 percent on my 707. 

I bought two lots of Raytheon Black Plates from a guy in California that used an emissions tester. The first lot was for 40 and he listed them at 108 "for all 40." I ended up keeping 19 of them and they were in the high 70's and low 80's. I won a second lot from him for 25 tubes and I had emailed him before bidding and was told that these were stronger tubes. Well I won the auction and I ended up keeping 9 of them. They were truly dismal. 

One thing I see is that seller's "who claim" they have an emissions tester always sell their tubes as closely matched with identical test scores. The odds of four 12AX7's being perfectly balanced with the same test scores is astronomical.

The above is just a testament to the shit I have to go through to make a small profit on the tubes I sell. I think if you look at what Mullards, Tele's, Black Plates sell for and then see what I get for them, you will see that I have a very modest mark up. For this you end up with a truly good tube.


----------



## mickeydg5

> I will refund. My tester never given false readings before and tubes did not drop emissions at reduced filament voltage either.
> My tester never given false readings before and tubes did not drop emissions at reduced filament voltage either.


 
This is a false or misleading statement.
Any merit or quality type test performed will have lower readings if test are done at reduced filament voltages.


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well Alan, I bought some more NOS Tungsrams, but boy were they expensive. I'm going to have to sell them at a high price.
> 
> I bought three lots of four tubes.



I have a Tungsram in V1 on my RI '59 Bassman I really like it


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Argh!!!
> 
> I am really getting pissed over the alarming amount of tubes I am receiving that are being sold as "NOS," "Very Stout" and "Strong," only to recieve them and find out they are just plain, worn out tubes.
> 
> This seems to be the new trend as sellers are willing to gamble that the buyer does not own a tester.
> 
> I bought some Mullards and everyone was below 60 percent. Those Tungsrams I bought that were touted as NOS? Well three of them were shot. They tested at 40 percent on one triode and 100+ on the other triode. I have to take my time, my packing materials and my money to get these shitty tubes returned. As I said, it really pisses me off.



Yeah I recently sent a pair I61's back that were advertised as over 100% of NOS and they wouldn't even get out of the red on my tester  The seller gave me a full refund when I said they tested bad.


----------



## MartyStrat54

And they knew they were bad and they were taking a gamble that you didn't have a tester.

On top of that you had to pay for return shipping. I hope they refunded your entire original amount, including shipping.

I'm getting sick of these SOB's.


----------



## RickyLee

A few years back, I picked up an amp that had an odd solid state rectifier looking thingumybob in place of one of the 12AX7's in the preamp. It is a solid state replacement for a 12AX7 I am figuring. Anyone here ever seen one or experienced one as well? Are they still manufactured today?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

There's a couple companies working on those:

News :: Solid-state equivalent of 6L6 and 12AX7 tubes from AMT Electronics - AMT Electronics worldwide internet shop. Buy directly from AMT Electronics

Roberts Audio Technology - Designs: RetroValves®

The Roberts brand seem to be the only in production brand, while the other AMT, says they only have prototypes...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah. We have commented on these several times. Fetron, AMT Electronics and RetroValve all make SS 12AX7 replacements.

Personally I think it is the dumbest thing I ever heard of.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Fetron

http://www.philipstorr.id.au/radio/technical/The_Fetron.pdf

AMT

AMT Electronics USA, LLC - 12AX7-WS Warm Stone Solid State 12AX7 Tube

RetroValve

Roberts Audio Technology - Designs: RetroValves®


----------



## RickyLee

I will have to dig this thing I have out. It it old from quite a few years ago. It is small plastic and looks like a small solid state rectifier adapter. 

I had actually googled it a few years back but now I can't find it online.


----------



## RickyLee

This is a bit closer to what I have:

Solid State Vacuum Tube Replacement - Industrial News Buzz


----------



## RickyLee

Man my memory is going. This might be it here. Not plastic though LOL

https://www.google.com/search?q=mes...r.id.au%2Fradio%2Feleven%2Ffetron.htm;636;466


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah those are the Fetrons. They've been around for years. Everyone is thinking that RetroValve is something new. The technology is old.


----------



## damienbeale

Okay, I can't see bugger all in this picture...
ECC83/12AX7A-UNITED ELECTRONICS

Anybody got any ideas as to what it is?

Gotta be crap if flipping Watford are selling them for under £80 apiece...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damien. Didn't you ask about these before? I distinctly remember you asking about some tube Watford was selling and it was a very small, obscure picture. 

Anyhow, they are indicating that these are Chinese made tubes.


----------



## damienbeale

Wasn't these particular ones, I don't think. To me they don't look particularly reminiscent of Chinese tubes, but I'm not up on those early Chinese pre-amp tubes. The power tubes I can spot from miles away.

I do like their get-out clause - "appears to be well made". Too scared to test them? Or admit to it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay I went back to the Watford page and reread what they said. They stated "Far East" production.

I was also able to blow the picture up (with my fancy new computer).

Those might be Toshiba or NEC. They used the ribbed plates. The getter flash is too heavy for a Matsushita. However, and I think Alan will agree with me, Matsushita was by far the best Japanese manufacturer. Their early D getter and slant getter tubes are a great value.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's an NEC. The mica's look very similar. However, this is a late 50's long plate.






Here's a Toshiba Long Plate.






If that is a Japanese tube, because it is a medium plate version I would say 70's production.


----------



## damienbeale

See, this is what I was wondering about. Jap tubes, I don't have any, nor do I know anything about. But I am very interested in obtaining some.

If I was sure this UE tube wasn't Chinese, I'd probably grab a handful since the price just dropped to £12 a piece (including VAT). Even if I don't like them myself, I can easily pass these on to customers and at comparable prices to CP tubes over here. (Tung Sol £10, Sovtek LPS £12, TAD £15)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well that's what I was thinking that it would be a low risk gamble.

The Japanese made tubes well into the 80's. Matsushita supplied Radio Shack with their Lifetime tubes.

Hard to believe that the Japanese were already making good stuff by 1955. The Matsushita's were later made on Mullard equipment.


----------



## RiverRatt

Damien, as Marty said the Matsushitas are by far the best-sounding MIJ tubes. The long plate 12AX7's from the 1950's are rare but worth finding. The slant getters were made in the 1960's and are nice but IMO not as good as other Philips tubes from that time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay I took a moment to dig through my odd stuff, Damo. Here is a rare one.

Made in Taiwan for Raytheon. It has the shorter plates like the Watford tube.

(Quicky cell phone pics.)











Notice the single stapled plates.


----------



## damienbeale

The Taiwanese were making tubes too? Whoa. I knew about BEL in India, but this is news to me. Okay, I'm going to stop looking for bargains then, and stick to what I can research easily. 


I think these crooks are probably smart enough to know exactly what they have, and price accordingly.


----------



## mickeydg5

What chu talking bout? I am suprised we do not have tubes out of Mexico. I guess mass production lines came too late in Mexico for that.


----------



## damienbeale

I just didn't know. I was happy under my rock.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tube wrenches? Okay Mickey, what the hell were these used for?






Vintage Pair GE Tubes Wrenches Sizes 1 2 11 32 3 8 7 16 1 4 9 32 5 16 7 32 | eBay

I'm assuming they have nothing to do with tubes, but rather an advertising venue for GE for those who worked on electronics.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is easy. Those are for changing spares on little clown cars or those British things like a MG.



OH add
It meant tubular in style or type of wrench, not for vacuum tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

How about for adjusting a "vintage" pair of roller skates?


----------



## mickeydg5

Why sure, you can use them for all sorts of tiny fixit projects.
You got to have the mini crescent wrench and pliers to complete the set.


----------



## MartyStrat54

There you go. 

Where were these when I was a youth with an erector set?


----------



## mickeydg5

Your local appliance repairman may have hade them.
Think vintage GE washing machine repairman or other appliances.


----------



## vinceB

I am re-tubing an amp for a bandmate and pulled these out. Can someone give me some insight on what I'm looking at here? One is clearly an RCA but that's all I can tell from it.


----------



## mickeydg5

The picture does not show.


----------



## vinceB

I can't figure it out!


----------



## vinceB




----------



## vinceB




----------



## vinceB




----------



## MartyStrat54

PIC #1-Early 60's RCA Gray Long Plate
PIC #2-Chinese Shuguang
PIC #3-Appears to be a Tungsram. Is there a little square metal plate near the top of the tube that is attached to one of the getter supports? That would be an early 70's tube like the one's below.






Without the plate it would be a mid 60's version.


----------



## vinceB

Cool. The Tunsgram has the little plate with "61" stamped on it. Thanks. I'm gathering up all my tubes to see what else I've got. People give me stuff to fix and a lot of times the stuff is so far gone/expensive or beyond the scope of my ability. I have a 78 Fender Studio bass amp that came to me like that. It's just been sitting in my garage for over 5 years. I'm going to open it up and see what goodies it may have.


----------



## vinceB

I dug through that old Fender and found a bunch GTs but I did find a USA made Fender branded 7025. I have been trying different combinations. Right now I have 

The Tungsram in V1 (massive gain but smooth)

Fender 7025 in V2 

RCA Gray LP in V3

It sounds pretty bitchin' right now. These old tubes are putting brand new TungSol CPs to shame. I thought they sounded good till now. Learning is fun


----------



## MartyStrat54

Most Tungsrams are really stout, even if they have been used. I agree with your lineup. The Tungsram is definitely your best tube.


----------



## EndGame00

Thetubestore is selling these 'new production' Mullard cv4004... Has anyone tried it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I have not tried one. It would be nice if it has some different tonal qualities. It sort of irks me when these CP brands utilize the part numbers of some of the best tubes made back in the early 60's.

New one.






Real one.






Not exactly the same. This is just like the Mullard RI. It is nothing like an original Mullard. This new CV4004 has short plates (similar to a TAD WA). So it is a different design and it is not going to sound like a real CV4004.

However, that doesn't mean it is a bad sounding tube.


----------



## mickeydg5

Its ong like donkey kong. Russian vs Chinese.


----------



## mickeydg5

New Sensor is making good use of that marketing strategy.

I suspect the B339 is next.  But I guess that is Marconi.  Are they acquiring that brand too?


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry but that new CV4004 looks like the same old Russian crap in a new dress. It's not going to make the tube sound different just because you print a different label on it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay. Here is a guy selling some MiniWatts. He stated that they all test at 80. Here is what I sent him.



> Hello. I'm interested in your tubes, but I need some more info. It is very rare for four used tubes to test exactly the same. I've seen scores like this made by emission testers.
> 
> Is that what these were tested on? If so, what was the max reading on the scale? 120, 130 or 140?
> 
> What is minimum good on the tester?



Here is his response.



> Hi, thanks for your interest. I honestly can not answer your question as I do not have a tube tester. I purchased these to have as spares and no longer have a need for them. I am selling off any tubes and tube equipment I own. They were purchased on ebay as a set of 4 as you see them a few years back.



They all test at 80, but he doesn't own a tester and he doesn't seem to concerned about his item description. I guess he picked 80 as it sounded like a good used figure. He probably doesn't know a thing about tube testers.


----------



## mickeydg5

It is possible that the previous seller told him 80 on all tubes which still does not mean much.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Funny you should say that. I sent him a reply and asked him that. However, you are right, it does not mean much.

Case in point. The guy with the RCA labeled Sylvania 6CA7's that I bought. He stated that all three tested as NOS. When they didn't and I contacted him about it, his response was, "Well I guess the guy I bought them from fvcked me." I told him, "Yep, that's a good assumption."


----------



## mickeydg5

I would never believe second hand information when it comes to buying unseen.

 Unless there are write ups, descriptions and maybe pictures or if the previous seller is known and reputable perhaps.

 I have never been in that situation.


----------



## Alabama Thunderpussy

I test every tube that I use. Even new out of the box tubes. Taking someone else's word for it and then passing that info on is just asking your foot to take a trip to your mouth.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I normally don't buy single tubes, but this one started out at $12.99 with $2.50 for shipping. I didn't think anyone else was going to bid on it, but a last minute sniper bumped the price up to $15.50. Still $18 isn't a bad price for a NOS RFT.


----------



## MartyStrat54

More smooth top 12AX7 Mullards for sale on EBAY.


----------



## EndGame00

I went ahead and ordered one, just curious how those 'cv4004' sounds like...my gripe with the cp mullard is its lifespan..I bought two tubes and put one of them in v2, both went crap with less than 50 hours of playing time.


----------



## mickeydg5

EndGame00 said:


> I went ahead and ordered one, just curious how those 'cv4004' sounds like...my gripe with the cp mullard is its lifespan..I bought two tubes and put one of them in v2, both went crap with less than 50 hours of playing time.


V2 in which amplifier?


----------



## EndGame00

mickeydg5 said:


> V2 in which amplifier?



My clone and the dsl15... Both cp mullard went bad, it went quicker on the DSL.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was just wondering because I thought remembering these tubes (maybe older versions of these tubes) having problems in cathode follower situations a while back.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey, I think you may be thinking about the early Tung-Sol's. I do not recall any issues with the Mullard RI in the cathode follower.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I think you are right, pesky New Sensor tubeys.

Hopefully it is not the same story again. It may have just been coincidence or batch related.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tubes...you just never know.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tone Slinger-FYI I posted those "Mullards" because they really aren't Mullards. Mullard didn't make any smooth top ECC83's.


----------



## mickeydg5

Are the seemless Mullard marked tubes India?


----------



## MartyStrat54

No, they are Japanese. BEL was the only manufacturer of tubes in India and they were owned by Philips and had the seams on top.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ok. I thought Japanese had Mullard/Philips tooling and machines. I do not know or keep track of how many factories were setup in Japan so different varieties could have came out from there.  It is good to know though.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes, Matsushita bought the Mullard tooling and machines and the tubes they made had seams on top like a real Mullard. In fact they look just like a Mullard.

I'm thinking these are Toshiba's. Here is an odd duck. A Toshiba made Valvo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Toshiba's had two round holes on the bottom mica. I can't see this in the pictures I posted. I'm just making a guess at them being Toshiba's based on the smooth top and the two staple rib plate design.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes I see what you are saying. You cannot see everything in those pictures but they sure do appear to be Toshiba.


----------



## RiverRatt

Where does the Matsushita "Mullard tooling" thing come from? Is there any real evidence other than eBay auctions? Matsushita was a Philips company and were making long plate 12AX7's in the mid to late 1950's at roughly the same time that Mullard and Amperex tubes started showing up. Why wouldn't Philips have set up Matsushita with their own tooling like they did all their other companies? If it were truly Mullard tooling then the Matsushita tubes should be nearly identical to Mullards, which they clearly are not. I'm not pointing fingers or making accusations. If anyone knows of any solid info on the subject I would love to read it.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I first heard about it on Tubemonger. I have to consider them to be a fairly reliable source. I just did a quick search using "Matsushita, the Japanese Mullard" and got some hits, several were EBAY listings.

Here is a page from Tubemonger.

Brand New in Box, Matsushita Japan 6922 E88CC tubes. Mullard Tooling. Tubes were relabeled and boxed by National. - BEST BUY

I'm in the dark about when Matsushita actually started making tubes and if Philips was involved initially, or if Philips came along and acquired them. The latter makes more sense to me. I'm also at a loss in regard to the Mullard equipment. Did Philips supply it to Matsushita in new condition, or was it old equipment? 

I always thought that the Matsushita D getter long plates were made in the late 50's and then the Slant getter came out in the early 60's. The Matsushita that looks most like a Mullard is the regular halo version. I will say I have always wondered if the Slant Getter was an authorized copy of an I60 Valvo. It certainly is a nice sounding tube.

The Japanese made tubes much longer than the US companies as denoted by the fact that Matsushita supplied Radio Shack with their "Lifetime" tubes. They became Radio Shacks main supplier in the mid/late 70's up until RS quit selling tubes. I always wondered where all that equipment went and if it is stored somewhere over in Japan? It would be great if someone would start up manufacturing with it again. I've never seen a D or Slant Getter sold by RS, only the halo getter version.

I've gotten lucky lately with buying some Matsushita tubes. I scored a perfect set of EL34's for $24. These go for $100 a pair used and $200 a pair NIB. This is in the same pricing as NOS RFT's and used Mullard xF's. My feedback on them is that they are preferred over the RFT's. Also, if you need a solid GZ34, the Matsushita is about half the price of a Mullard.

As we have discussed before Alan, as viable as the tube industry was, there is not a lot of recorded history pertaining to the Who, What, When, Where and How.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ratt

I will not bring this up again because I have no hard evidence. I could not find information on Matsushita factory. I know that I had read stuff some time back somewhere though. You cannot always trust what is read anyway. I think it had something to do with after the war. Japan's economy was down and Matsushita was building up again. They were big into TV industry among other appliances and made partnerships with American and European companies. I had read (again somewhere) that Matsushita had gotten machines and tools from Philips that may or may not have come from one of the Mullard sites. Mullard was partnered with Philips too. It did not say that Philips built them a factory; only that they had supplied help and some machinery. As I said I cannot verify this to be fact.

You can find excerpts like this if searching.

_In December 1952, Matsushita Electronics Corporation became the first collaborative operation to be established through a merger between our company and Philips. Founder Konosuke Matsushita, who embraced the belief that technological collaboration with the advanced companies of Europe and the United States would be critical for our future development, decided on the merger with Philips after personally travelling to the USA and Europe in order to visit leading companies and consider prospective partners. The company was established with capital of 660 million yen, an amount that at the time exceeded our company′s capital of 500 million yen. _


----------



## RiverRatt

That kind of all goes along with what I was thinking. I will say that Matsushita was in bed with Radio Shack even before the Realistic Lifetime tubes. Way back in the first part of this thread I scored three Realistic 12AX7'S that turned out to be Matsushita long plates. They had the typical Philips seams on top and sounded a little dark but really lit up my DSL50. I ended up sending one to Joe and he loved it, and later I sent one to Josh. I can't remember what happened to the third one but I don't have it any more. They are definitely worth picking up if you get a chance. The short plate halo tubes aren't worth wasting your money on.

Date codes were sporadically used but like other Philips companies they used the last digit of the year and a letter for the week, which was printed (not etched) on the side of the tube near the logo and was repeated, i.e. 6H 6H. I've never seen a Philips factory code on any Matsushita.

FWIW I have seen both slant and halo Matsushita 12AX7's with the Realistic Lifetime label, along with just about every other brand you can imagine. They were like Westinghouse. They would slap their label on anything.

At one time I had read just about everything Google turned up re: Matsushita. The tube manufacturing got very little attention, but I do remember that they continued under the Panasonic name.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## solarburn

True story. I still have that one Alan and a couple more of the slant Halos. The D getter really sounded good in V1 of our DSL50's. I liked it over the vintage Mullards I have.

I'm using one of the slant halo Shitas in V1 of my OR15 and it has brought more upper mid kerrang. Made it lean even more toward a vintage Marshall/Orange hybrid. I recommend the D getter or slant Halo Shitas especially if Mullards are desirable in your amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well according to Mickey's info, my hunch was right. Matsushita started on their own and then they were acquired by Philips. I would like to know more about how they obtained the Mullard equipment.

So Alan, you've seen some Realistic slant getter Matties? I never have. 

Joe, you and I got pretty involved with the various Matsushita tubes. The D getters are hard to come by. I still see the slant getters listed on EBAY. I just don't move them enough to bother with them. I think I told you guys I unloaded most of my Matties before I moved from the KC area. I still have 5 or 6 slant getters.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen a Realistic Matsushita slant getters as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well there you go. 

Maybe one day I will be lucky enough to see one myself.


----------



## mickeydg5

I can show you a picture.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Pictures only work if they are about good looking women and then it can still be frustrating.


----------



## mickeydg5

Tell me about it.

Just kidding.

But the real thing in person can be frustrating sometimes too. The words so close yet so far away comes to mind.


----------



## solarburn

I think I have a Realistic slant getter and I believe it may be gold pinned too. I'll dig around tomorrow and find it.

Anyways the slant Shitas have nice upper mid tendencies. The D getter has more hair and gain than my slants but not fizzy in a bad way. 

Sizzle not fizzle.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes with gold pins.


----------



## ricksteruk

Does anyone have experience of these tubes? Any good? RSD ECC83


----------



## damienbeale

Need a clear shot of the plate structure. Logo is irrelevant. Looks like an EI at a glance though.


----------



## ricksteruk

damienbeale said:


> Need a clear shot of the plate structure. Logo is irrelevant. Looks like an EI at a glance though.



Ok thanks, I'll take some proper photos!


----------



## ricksteruk

Are these pics better? I have 3 of these in my 4210. Assuming V1 is the one closest to the input jack in this amp, then they are in V3, V4 and v5. I will post pics of V1 and V2.. they are different.











I have to say I am amazed by the amount of knowledge on this forum! You guys rock


----------



## damienbeale

Yep, that's an EI. Variable quality dependant on whether or not they are microphonic. Better than most current tubes, and pretty good in the right amp, but not a classic. Still a good useful tube though.


----------



## ricksteruk

damienbeale said:


> Yep, that's an EI. Variable quality dependant on whether or not they are microphonic. Better than most current tubes, and pretty good in the right amp, but not a classic. Still a good useful tube though.



Thanks Damien, that's good to know! I read somewhere you can tap a tube to test if it's microphonic.. is that true?

Here's my V1 thats in the 4210 combo, can you identify this one? Is it a short plate? (I'm getting the lingo.. it looks smaller than the EI)











How do I test what % they are? Do I find a friendly Tech with a tester or can I buy such a device?


----------



## damienbeale

That is an RFT which have very different plate structures altogether. A good tube, and usually pretty gainy, but lacking that last tiny bit of top end which can be very useful in some amps. They sound great regardless. It's a good choice for V1.

As for testing, decent tube testers cost small fortunes here in the UK. Upwards of £400. Most testers are very old, poorly maintained, or not particularly good for testing at real world operating voltages.

The tap test can be misleading if you don't know what you are doing. V1 will always be loudest, as it is amplified by everything else. So when looking for microphonic tubes it is best to use v1 position for all of them. They will all make a loud "thunk" so what you're listening for is pinging and ringing on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Damn Damien, I think I'll retire now.

Of course those were a couple of easy one's.

Rick-Be very careful tapping on tubes. If they aren't creating any issues, there's really no reason to test them for microphonics.

Short plate RFT's are practically immune to being microphonic in V1.


----------



## ricksteruk

Thanks for the advice Damien and Marty. You guys are awesome! I'd have never known that tubes were such fun! I feel like going through all the old second hand junk and looking for tube now.. hehe

So that V1 is a RFT. good news! It seems to be working well - there certainly is plenty of gain available. I'll have to check through the schematic for the amp to see which valves relate to the clean and distortion channels. So I can get a sense of where I should be listening when I start experimenting.

Here's one more valve for you.. my V2...














.

That's the last in my Marshall, but I have 3 x 83s and an 81 in my Laney AOR30.. I suspect V1 in there is duff... the LO input on the Laney which bypasses V1 sounds perfect, but the Hi input often breaks up in a nasty way.. sounds like the whole valve is disintegrating!!! Maybe I'll pull the tubes from it for ID purposes in case there's any beauties in there.. but probably not eh!

I will definitely be buying some more tubes in the near future.. probably good to have some spares and to be able to experiment.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Boy these are popping up all over the place. That's an early 70's Tungsram made in Hungary.

That's the tube that I would be running in V1 of my favorite amp.


----------



## ricksteruk

Good news! Looks like I pulled a winner. I'm just looking at the schematic for the 4210/2205 trying to figure out how the 5 preamp tubes work...

It looks like V1a does the Clean channel, and V1b does the Boost channel.. but maybe it goes straight to V2.. it's confusing.. V3 and V4 are involved with the Reverb drive and Mix - V5 is the inverter.

I think I might like to reduce the gain in V1 a fraction... is the Tungsram higher or lower gain than the RFT?


----------



## mickeydg5

Hi Rick

Swap V1 and V2 back and forth to see which tube sounds best in V1.
There are different versions of Split Channel Reverb preamps and it can make a difference.


----------



## ricksteruk

mickeydg5 said:


> Hi Rick
> 
> Swap V1 and V2 back and forth to see which tube sounds best in V1.
> There are different versions of Split Channel Reverb preamps and it can make a difference.



Good idea! Mine is a 1984 model if that helps.


----------



## mickeydg5

ricksteruk said:


> Good idea! Mine is a 1984 model if that helps.


V1 always feed both the NORMAL and BOOST channels in these amplifiers.
V2 is in the BOOST channel in the earliest versions, with BC184 transistor switching.
V2 is in the CLEAN channel in the later two versions which have the CA3046 chip switching.
1984 was around the transition time so see if you have the chip or not.


----------



## ricksteruk

Is this the CA3046 chip.. seems to be!






There is a sticker with B on it on the board.... revision B perhaps?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yeah you have the later version. Which is good as it addressed the channel bleed issue that the earlier version had.

Your tube layout should be:

Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B

Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A (Note-V3A is the final gain stage for Boost Channel)

Reverb: V3B and V4B

Effects Return: V4A

Phase Inverter: V5


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Boy these are popping up all over the place. That's an early 70's Tungsram made in Hungary.
> 
> That's the tube that I would be running in V1 of my favorite amp.



I have one in V1 on my 'RI 65 Super Reverb


----------



## ricksteruk

MartyStrat54 said:


> Yeah you have the later version. Which is good as it addressed the channel bleed issue that the earlier version had.
> 
> Your tube layout should be:
> 
> Normal Channel: V1A and V2A and V2B
> 
> Boost Channel: V1A and V1B and V3A (Note-V3A is the final gain stage for Boost Channel)
> 
> Reverb: V3B and V4B
> 
> Effects Return: V4A
> 
> Phase Inverter: V5



Thanks Marty, you sure know your stuff! So I think as you suggested earlier I'll try the Tungsram in V1. I find that the Clean Channel gets crunchy very quickly on the gain pot.. like between 1 and 2 on the pot... would putting a lower gain tube in V2 help this? Or is it the V1 that makes the biggest difference?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well as you can see, both the Clean and the Boost channels use V1A as the first gain stage. If you use a tube with less gain it will affect both channels.

It's always nice to have a stash of tubes and you should have at least one vintage/NOS 5751. This tube has less gain than a 12AX7. A 12AX7 has an amplification factor of 100 and a 5751 is 70. Next would be a 12AT7 which is 60. The next commonly used tube is a 12AY7 which is about 45. The 12AU7 is 20.

When you use a lower gain tube you do obtain more clean headroom.


----------



## ricksteruk

Yes it looks like I need to keep a high gain in V1 because the boost channel would suffer otherwise... but a 5751 in V2 which is solely used for the clean channel might help me get a bit more range on my clean vol pot before it gets crunchy?

Is the JAN SYLVANIA NOS 5751 tube any good? They seem to be going for around £25 on eBay .. from LANGREX... or should I be looking elsewhere to purchase from? Do you ship to UK ever and is it worth the brother for just the 1 tube.


----------



## damienbeale

Just about all of the genuine businesses in the UK selling nos tubes are way overpriced. And that tube is definitely no exception.


----------



## ricksteruk

Hmm yeah it looks that way... I looked their shop and they had like 1000pcs of one particular tube for around £40k! 

Would I be better off getting a CP lower gain tube? I think I probably ought to concentrate on my Filter Caps first though anyway. Maybe I'll pull my Laney tubes for the fun of it.. who knows whats in there - 1989 or so was when they were put in.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Okay, first off I don't think any CP manufacturer makes a real 5751. The consensus is that they take 12AX7's that have lower than normal test scores and label them as 5751's.

The sad news is that everybody wants 5751's now and they have tripled in price. The really good 5751's were made prior to 1964. I have 1959 GE Black Plates and they now go for $150.

The JAN 5751 is the cheapest NOS tube available. The only problem is it was designed for military use. Therefore it has a stiffer plate structure which translates into a somewhat sterile tone.

The other thing is that using a 5751 after a 12AX7 doesn't really affect the gain that much. In fact, putting a 5751 in V1 might not even make a noticeable difference. It depends on the tube that is being used. You might want to consider using a 12AT7 in V2. Those are a lot cheaper and you will get a noticeable change in gain using one in V2.


----------



## ricksteruk

I think I do want to be able to change the gain of my Clean channel quite a lot - at the moment the sound I'm liking is coming at between 1.75 and 2 on the Gain pot. I'm not sure if the pot is worn but it seems to just go from no gain at all / almost silence at "1" to starting to break up a bit at "2". After about 3 on the pot there is too much crunch on there for me.

The 12AT7 is the ECC81 right? I think I have one of those (not sure which brand) in the PI of my Laney amp.. I could try it in the V2 of this to see how it affects the Clean gain. If I like it then maybe consider getting a nice NOS one.. There's Mullard ECC81s going for £25 on the Hot Rox store.. is that a reasonable price?


----------



## MartyStrat54

You'd have to ask Damien about UK prices. I sell GE 5 Star 12AT7's for $15USD.


----------



## damienbeale

Still a bit crazy steep. But they know they will eventually sell them as old tube supply is scarce over here now, so they price for profit. I tend to look overseas for all NOS stuff, and have been known to even for CP stuff occasionally, although the variety is better here now.


----------



## RiverRatt

Personally I don't think the 12AT7/ECC81 is a viable option for the first gain stage in most amps. IMO a good strong 12AX7 almost always sounds better. The 12AT7 wasn't designed for audio applications and most of the time they come across a little dull and lifeless. 

Some people do like what a 12AT7 does in their amp, so you might love it. I wouldn't spend a lot of money on one though until you know how it's going to sound. I'll send you one to try if you can cover the postage. Just send me a PM and we'll work out the details.


----------



## Georgiatec

Hey guys  just a couple of questions about 6N2P-EV tubes. What wiring mods need to be made to the sockets in order to use these tubes and are you then stuck with using them or will normal ECC83 / 12ax7's still work after the re-wiring?. I'm thinking of trying these (very cheap) tubes in my cheaper amps, starting with a Peavey VK 5 watter.


----------



## Georgiatec

ricksteruk said:


> I think I do want to be able to change the gain of my Clean channel quite a lot - at the moment the sound I'm liking is coming at between 1.75 and 2 on the Gain pot. I'm not sure if the pot is worn but it seems to just go from no gain at all / almost silence at "1" to starting to break up a bit at "2". After about 3 on the pot there is too much crunch on there for me.
> 
> The 12AT7 is the ECC81 right? I think I have one of those (not sure which brand) in the PI of my Laney amp.. I could try it in the V2 of this to see how it affects the Clean gain. If I like it then maybe consider getting a nice NOS one.. There's Mullard ECC81s going for £25 on the Hot Rox store.. is that a reasonable price?



Try an ECC82 in V2....about 20% of the gain of an ECC83. If you are only using 20% of the pot's travel you may find it makes it much more linear, with the break up coming right at the end. They don't sound as sterile as an ECC81 either.


----------



## MartyStrat54

RiverRatt said:


> Personally I don't think the 12AT7/ECC81 is a viable option for the first gain stage in most amps.



Neither do I and I will never recommend one for V1. Putting a 12AT7 in V2 after a 12AX7 tends to keep some of the first gain stage tone intact. 12AT7 are pretty lifeless.

Tony K-I agree that a 12AU7 has a better tone than a 12AT7. If the OP was wanting to go with something lower for V2 I would recommend the 12AY7.


----------



## ricksteruk

Thanks for all the advice folks 

I will wait to see what difference the new filter caps make to the clean channel's gain structure (if any) before I go spending money on lower gain tubes.


----------



## Georgiatec

ricksteruk said:


> Thanks for all the advice folks
> 
> I will wait to see what difference the new filter caps make to the clean channel's gain structure (if any) before I go spending money on lower gain tubes.



PM me your address. I'm quite happy to send you a vintage RCA ECC82 for nowt. All the 1 watt anniversary amps use 'em so I have have a drawer full


----------



## MartyStrat54




----------



## ricksteruk

Georgiatec said:


> PM me your address. I'm quite happy to send you a vintage RCA ECC82 for nowt. All the 1 watt anniversary amps use 'em so I have have a drawer full



That's most generous of you! Thanks! PM sent


----------



## RiverRatt

I made a last pass through my old house to dig around and see if I'd missed anything. I found a Tung-Sol 6V6 and a very rugged GE 12AX7WA. It has two metal supports between the plates but otherwise looks like a standard GE short plate. The print is green so I wonder if it was a JG military tube. You guys ever seen one of these?


----------



## mickeydg5

I have seen those. Most have JAN on them.
GreenGirl has one with a big ole disk getter. I think that is one like you are mentioning.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I use the GE JAN WA's (with green print) for V3 on DSL/TSL amps. They can handle excessive plate voltage.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey-Do you recall when we were talking about amp builders who claim they built their amps around a particular brand of tubes?

I was thinking about this and I wonder if Marshall did this when they used Mullards exclusively. Or do you think there wasn't any thought about this at all?


----------



## GIBSON67

In a SLX, can you tell me what is the function of each of the four preamp tubes? I can't find it...and the schematic just confuses me. Anyone know?

I would assume that V4 is the PI.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Mickey-Do you recall when we were talking about amp builders who claim they built their amps around a particular brand of tubes?
> 
> I was thinking about this and I wonder if Marshall did this when they used Mullards exclusively. Or do you think there wasn't any thought about this at all?


I will put it like this. They were not designed for any one particular tube brand or manufacture. But they most likely used the most reputable and available tube of the time and tuned or tweaked according to that.

I believe most tubes today tend to have a brighter, bit harsher and less smooth sound. I know there are exceptions or worse cases. So you place those in the same designs and you end up with what is heard a lot from people today; my amplifier is harsh or is too bright, how can I tone it down or raise the low frequencies?

I am sure it was similar back then too but at a different level given all of the various old stock manufacturers.

If you had the same tubes of today in the 1960's then you may have ended up with a .005 or .01uF coupling capacitor with maybe a 330pF/680k peak filter on the BRIGHT channel of a Marshall. Who knows?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Mullards are darker compared to modern 12AX7's, that's a fact.


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes darker is one way to put it. But they aren't JJ's.
Smoother is a good description; maybe even warm and not hot. A tube like old Mullards may also cover the frequency range a bit better giving an even or fuller sound, in most cases. I think those are a characteristics which attract many to the old stock Mullards.

But amplifiers as well as users can be finicky so it is still a good idea to try different tubes just to see what will give the best results. Strengths and tolerances of parts are two things a tone chaser will also have to deal with and take into consideration.


----------



## RiverRatt

Georgiatec said:


> Hey guys  just a couple of questions about 6N2P-EV tubes. What wiring mods need to be made to the sockets in order to use these tubes and are you then stuck with using them or will normal ECC83 / 12ax7's still work after the re-wiring?. I'm thinking of trying these (very cheap) tubes in my cheaper amps, starting with a Peavey VK 5 watter.



I think the only changes would be removing the filament lead from pin 9, remove the other filament lead from pins 4 & 5, then solder one lead to pin 4 and the other to pin 5. Pin 9 appears to be an internal shield so that would probably need to go to ground. You'd have to reverse the procedure to use any of the 12AX7 family again.

Check all this out before you fire one up. Is it really worth it though to re-wire an amp to use that one tube exclusively? If it were a good idea I would think we'd see more amps set up to use them. IIRC the Russian Red Bear amps were the only ones to use 6N2P preamp tubes and that never went anywhere. Most got re-wired to use 12AX7's.

If you want to re-wire for a different preamp tube, the 6EU6 would be a better option. They are supposed to be less prone to noise than a 12AX7, they are relatively cheap, and most big manufacturers made them so you can find Mullards and such instead of some cheap Reflektor crap.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is a big day for me! For the first time since I parted ways with bitchzilla, I have a broadband wifi internet connection again! It's been hell trying to read and post with my cell phone for the last 5 months. I think I permanently damaged my eyes. Now I have a choice between my Galaxy SIII, a PC with a big-ass monitor, or a Mac with an even bigger big-ass monitor.


----------



## Micky

Awesome!


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> Yes darker is one way to put it. But they aren't JJ's.
> Smoother is a good description; maybe even warm and not hot. A tube like old Mullards may also cover the frequency range a bit better giving an even or fuller sound, in most cases. I think those are a characteristics which attract many to the old stock Mullards.



Well by darker I was talking about the "smoother and warmer" top end on the Mullard which a user might perceive as being darker.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hope to see you here more often Alan. I've been having to ID tubes all by myself.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tony Kinder-Did you just recently ask about this? I posted this up a couple of months ago. Someone else asked me about this. You just rewire the heaters. Everything else is the same.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey, I got it right!


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hope to see you here more often Alan. I've been having to ID tubes all by myself.



I should be. I'm starting to be able to play more so I'm getting more into the amps and tubes again. I have a few ideas for a build that I want to get into when I get a bit more financially secure. I have everything I need except for a turret board or two but everything is scattered from hell to breakfast from the move. I still have a few distractions that are keeping me busy. I'm going to go spend the night with one of them here in a few minutes.


----------



## Georgiatec

MartyStrat54 said:


> Tony Kinder-Did you just recently ask about this? I posted this up a couple of months ago. Someone else asked me about this. You just rewire the heaters. Everything else is the same.



Cheers for that Marty.....once done does it mean I can no longer use regular 12ax7's without putting the wiring back?.


----------



## bman

So i followed your advice for my dsl40 as much as i could spend anyway...Here is what i have. 1 ruby 12ax7 hg5+ two tung sol 12ax7 reissue's 2 JJ 12ax7's and the four stock Marshall pre-amp tubes. In what locations to you suggest what?


----------



## mickeydg5

bman said:


> So i followed your advice for my dsl40 as much as i could spend anyway...Here is what i have. 1 ruby 12ax7 hg5+ two tung sol 12ax7 reissue's 2 JJ 12ax7's and the four stock Marshall pre-amp tubes. In what locations to you suggest what?


I am thinking the guys will say first try Ruby in V1, TungSol V2, JJ in V3 and V4. Maybe a TungSol in V4.
But that depends on your other four tubes.
Give some good pictures so they can be identified.


----------



## EndGame00

For me, the Preferred Series 7025 preamp tube sounds best in PI.... It actually added more beef on the bottom end on my 20-watt Marshall clone.

I have Tungsol RI in V1, Sovtek WA in V2 and the 7025 in PI.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Tony once you make the conversion you can't use 12AX7's.


----------



## ricksteruk

Georgiatec said:


> Try an ECC82 in V2....about 20% of the gain of an ECC83. If you are only using 20% of the pot's travel you may find it makes it much more linear, with the break up coming right at the end. They don't sound as sterile as an ECC81 either.



I got the ECC82 thanks Tony and have had a try with it in my V2 today.

It really has helped! I've got a lot more range on my gain pot now. When I get to around 8 or 9 on the pot some distortion becomes apparent, and at 10 i get a very mild crunch. This is pretty much just what I wanted from my clean channel, so I'm really happy! 

I've moved the Tungsram from V2 into V1 as well. It seems to be warmer than the RFT I had in there... would that be the case? I'm liking the change anyway.

Might the RFT be better in V5 (the Phase inverter) than the EI i have in there at the moment? Doesn't hurt to try I guess.

The whole amp might feel different when I change the Electrolytic caps later this week (when they arrive)


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow! Crazy UK price for a B&K 606 emissions tester. (Shipping too.)

B K 606 Valve Tube Tester GWO Portable Tests All Modern Audio 12AX7 EL84 6L6 | eBay


----------



## mickeydg5

That is way too much for that tester, emissions only.


----------



## RickyLee

I am a bit baffled as to why the standard JJ ECC83S is at the bottom of this scale showing output or gain levels. The most baffling is that the JJ 5751 is in the middle. How can a 5751 have more gain than the standard 12AX7/ECC83S?

http://www.tubesandmore.com/sites/d...files/ecc83mg_comparison_winter_namm_2014.pdf


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well Ricky it's a JJ chart. If you notice, the difference between the 803 Gold Pin and the 803 Standard is quite a bit. The tubes are identical except for the gold pins. So gold pins make this much difference. I think not.

The 12AX7 Gold, 5751 and 12AX7 Standard all use the exact same internals, yet JJ claims them as three distinct models. Okay <scratching my head>

JJ is not providing an actual transconductance reading. Of course it has been my understanding that CP tubes labeled as a 5751 are just lower testing 12AX7's and this belief is strengthened by the fact that the 5751 shares identical constuction as a 12AX7.


----------



## ToneWarrior

anyone tried these? Are they worth it?

Preferred Series 7025 / 12AX7


----------



## ToneWarrior

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow! Crazy UK price for a B&K 606 emissions tester. (Shipping too.)
> 
> B K 606 Valve Tube Tester GWO Portable Tests All Modern Audio 12AX7 EL84 6L6 | eBay



I have the 600 I paid $40 for it and it came with the manual. Anyone know who calibrates these?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The TAD 7025S, Gold Lion Plain Pin 12AC7 and Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+ are the same exact tube as the Preferred Series 7025. The only difference is price. The Ruby is by far the best price at about $22 each. The Ruby has been discontinued and you have to look around to find them.

I used to recommend the Preferred Series 7025 for V1 until the cheaper Ruby came out. They are all made in China by Shuguang. They are low noise for a CP tube with high gain.

The B and K 600 is an emission tester. They are actually easy to calibrate. The main thing about old tube testers is the same as old tube amplifiers. That is, the electrolytic caps need to be changed out for safety and accuracy reasons. Emission testers tend to read a good tube with a generous test score that is not the same as if the tube was tested on a transconductance tester. However the 600 will be able to tell a good tube from a bad tube.

This guy is a whiz on refurbishing and calibrating B and K testers.

Michael Mabry
145 Bryant Hill RD
Woodland WA 98674

He can be contacted on EBAY at mwmabry.


----------



## mickeydg5

RickyLee is having a problem with two Mullards.
In one amplifier they work fine. In another they drop less than half the voltage as measured at the plate. It is puzzling. It is figured that it is a pin or contact problem in the one amplifier socket; but it is only with the two I61 Mullards. Has anyone ever had this happen or can think of a reason?


----------



## MartyStrat54

I haven't read that thread. That's real puzzling from a troubleshooting standpoint.


----------



## mickeydg5

Here is the thread if interested.
http://www.marshallforum.com/workbench/69687-weak-12ax7-voltages-cathode-follower-position.html

He tried adjusting tension in socket, filing and cleaning pins. The problem still persist.


----------



## solarburn

ToneWarrior said:


> anyone tried these? Are they worth it?
> 
> Preferred Series 7025 / 12AX7



Need only one of them and I strongly recommend in V1. I have it in my DSL40C.

Like Marty said this tube has a few names.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Joe, just curious. Would you agree that the AC7 HG+ isn't as bright as a typical Shuguang 12AX7?


----------



## solarburn

MartyStrat54 said:


> Joe, just curious. Would you agree that the AC7 HG+ isn't as bright as a typical Shuguang 12AX7?



Yeah it's warmer and delivers a nice crunch when in V1 of my DSL40C. It and the AC5HG+ in V2 gave the amp a nice low end wamp compared to the stock. Punchier in the bottom. Mids and highs great. I did not like the AC5HG+ in V1. Made it boomy in the lows.


----------



## hopkinwfg

well... didnt really wanna start another thread but was wondering how critical is having a set of matched Preamps ie 12ax7 + 12au7... comparing to few non matched preamp set? 

how much would it reflect on the preamp circuit and components ? different brands with different working current and voltages...


----------



## Micky

Preamp tubes don't need to be matched at all.


----------



## hopkinwfg

Micky said:


> Preamp tubes don't need to be matched at all.



ohh....well just to ask i dug up those used tubes and found few power tubes as well as few of my new power tubes to have loose parts inside them.. i found out when i gently shake them.. would it be sign of inferior or would it cause any bad when used?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Your power tubes shouldn't have any loose parts. Do not use them. As I told you in your thread you need to buy new, matched power tubes.


----------



## mickeydg5

Ooh, if you shake some tubes rattling may be heard. Sometimes it may even be loose mica or glass within the tube. I have seen that.
It does not necessarily mean anything is bad. Some tubes also have pre determined axis/rotation when mounting horizontal due to hanging internal parts.

Now if you see loose parts hanging or on the bottom of the glass then that is a problem.


----------



## hopkinwfg

MartyStrat54 said:


> Your power tubes shouldn't have any loose parts. Do not use them. As I told you in your thread you need to buy new, matched power tubes.



Mmmm i will bug you when i be getting them ... need few EL34 that could handle high voltage like 500VDC++


----------



## hopkinwfg

mickeydg5 said:


> Ooh, if you shake some tubes rattling may be heard. Sometimes it may even be loose mica or glass within the tube. I have seen that.
> I does not necessarily mean anything is bad. Some tubes also have pre determined axis/rotation when mounting horizontal due to hanging internal parts.



best remedy at hand is to getta tube tester in this case? i seen the orange tube tester and wonder if its anything serious with that product?


----------



## mickeydg5

Now if you see loose parts hanging or on the bottom of the glass then that is a problem. 

The little Orange tester is cool and handy but you may find inaccuracies with some tubes do to the fact that this tester is very low power. It has been noticed and mentioned before.


----------



## hopkinwfg

mickeydg5 said:


> Now if you see loose parts hanging or on the bottom of the glass then that is a problem.
> 
> The little Orange tester is cool and handy but you may find inaccuracies with some tubes do to the fact that this tester is very low power. It has been noticed and mentioned before.



Thanks for the kind advice !! appreciate your every input...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I assumed he meant loose parts floating around in the tube as if the tube had taken a hard blow. The worst EL34's with rattle were the late production Tesla's.


----------



## hopkinwfg

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I assumed he meant loose parts floating around in the tube as if the tube had taken a hard blow. The worst EL34's with rattle were the late production Tesla's.



no problem ! i know your advice is at good will as i wouldnt wanna fry my HT fuse nor amp


----------



## ToneWarrior

MartyStrat54 said:


> The TAD 7025S, Gold Lion Plain Pin 12AC7 and Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+ are the same exact tube as the Preferred Series 7025. The only difference is price. The Ruby is by far the best price at about $22 each. The Ruby has been discontinued and you have to look around to find them.
> 
> I used to recommend the Preferred Series 7025 for V1 until the cheaper Ruby came out. They are all made in China by Shuguang. They are low noise for a CP tube with high gain.
> 
> The B and K 600 is an emission tester. They are actually easy to calibrate. The main thing about old tube testers is the same as old tube amplifiers. That is, the electrolytic caps need to be changed out for safety and accuracy reasons. Emission testers tend to read a good tube with a generous test score that is not the same as if the tube was tested on a transconductance tester. However the 600 will be able to tell a good tube from a bad tube.
> 
> This guy is a whiz on refurbishing and calibrating B and K testers.
> 
> Michael Mabry
> 145 Bryant Hill RD
> Woodland WA 98674
> 
> He can be contacted on EBAY at mwmabry.



Thanks I'll look him up.


----------



## RiverRatt

I just scored an old Traynor Guitar Mate Reverb that I'm trying to exercise the demons from. I scored a couple of I63 Mullards with the amp, a 1961 and a 1962, the latter of which tests above 100℅. I couldn't believe they weren't I61's with those early date codes. I guess there was more overlapping of the type codes than I ever suspected.

If what I read about Traynor serial numbers is correct, the amp was made in the 11th week of 1972. It has a beautiful hand-wired eyelet board with a funky bias mod that may be most of my problem. The guy I got it from didn't know a tube amp from a bicycle. It looks like it's been in someone's garage for 30 years.


----------



## RiverRatt

Update on the Traynor: I think the bias pot is toast. The amp is running around 430v on the plates and 420v on the screens. With the bias pot, I am reading between -25v to -35v. If I turn the pot just a hair more open when it's at -25v, it goes to -10v and the tubes immediately redplate. I guess I should mention it's a 2xEL84 fixed bias p/p power section.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Update on the Traynor: I think the bias pot is toast. The amp is running around 430v on the plates and 420v on the screens. With the bias pot, I am reading between -25v to -35v. If I turn the pot just a hair more open when it's at -25v, it goes to -10v and the tubes immediately redplate. I guess I should mention it's a 2xEL84 fixed bias p/p power section.


I believe what you are looking at is the TREMOLO circuit which involves bias modulation.

What type of modification or what did they modify for bias control?


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't know if I'm intelligent enough to describe it to you. I need to find the proper schematic - every one I've found seems to be for the mid-1970's model. Mine is the YGM-3 Guitar Mate Reverb. I haven't had much time to dig for info this weekend and it looks like it's going to be more of the same until Wednesday.


----------



## {JAKE}

I have a Marshall C5 Head on the way and I have been giving some thought to trying NOS tubes instead of just CP tubes like I normally run. I hear some folks say they are running some "really nice stuff" in their amps. My question is: what would be considered "really nice stuff" in regards to NOS tubes, especially preamp tubes? Specifically what would work the best for the classic Marshall crunch tone? Mullard, RCA, Telefunken, GE? If I was going to make an investment in NOS glass, what might work best for my Class 5?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well "really nice stuff" is usually reserved for European glass in V1 and then a USA tube like a Raytheon Black Plate in V2. 

Amperex (Holland)-Enhanced upper range compared to a Mullard.
Mullard (UK)-All about strong, 3D mids. A great choice for classic/hard rock.
Raytheon Black Plate (USA)-The ultimate V2 tube. Very neutral.
RFT (East Germany)-Smooth and dark sounding tube. Perfect for a bright amp.
Sylvania (USA)-High gain metal tone.
Telefunken (West Germany)-Very well balanced from top to bottom. A more neutral tone.
Tungsram (Hungary)-A V1 favorite. A few steps above a Mullard for classic rock tone.

As far as GE and RCA, the best choice for these are the GE 12AX7WA (pre72) and the RCA Long Black Plate (1955-59).

The C5 is a Class A amp so the EL84 is real important. I would upgrade to a Sylvania Black Plate, Valvo, Telefunken or Amperex.


----------



## {JAKE}

Thanks, Marty real good info there. Yes, I have noticed the long plate Tungsrams testing in good condition command higher prices on EBay. So I kind of assumed that between those and the vintage Mullards, that these two are the top choice preamp tubes. Which, I may try and go for one of these for a V1 tube come next payday. And maybe a Raytheon for V2 as you've suggested. Lucky for me the seller of the C5 head is including a Sylvania (Zenith branded) EL 84 and an Ei 12ax7. I do have a Mullard EL84 on hand that I rescued from an old console stereo at the dump. That tube really sounds like ear sex in my C5 combo amp, so I'll definitely be trying that one out too and keeping my eye out for more. It's nice that the C5 only has one power amp tube so I really don't need to worry about matched pairs so much, just a tube that still tests strong.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As good as Mullard was making ECC83 (12AX7) and EL34 tubes, their EL84 is just okay. I would much rather have a Sylvania Black Plate EL84 over the Mullard. (I understand that the Black Plate and other USA tubes are difficult to find in the UK.)

Ei 12AX7 tubes aren't that bad if they are not microphonic. Ei was the last NOS tube factory. Marshall used Ei preamp tubes and EL84's for a long time. You could use this in V2 and get the best V1 tube that you can afford.


----------



## {JAKE}

MartyStrat54 said:


> As good as Mullard was making ECC83 (12AX7) and EL34 tubes, their EL84 is just okay.



Well, I should've said, compared to the Sovtek El84 that was in there originally, the Mullard sounds stellar, lol.


----------



## {JAKE}

Huh, I think I've just put two and two together and figured out I've just bought this amp from RiverRatt. Wierd, small world.


----------



## bman

Tung-sol re-issues are just as good as a mullard and slightly less dark sounding imo at 14.95 a pop


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well a Tung-Sol RI is going to be bright compared to a NOS Mullard.


----------



## RiverRatt

Hey Jake!

Yeah, that's my Class 5 you're getting. Too cool. I was running a Tungsram in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. The Sylvania 6BQ5 I sent you is the tube I was running in the amp. There's a Marshall-branded Shuguang in V1 and a Marshall Sovtek in V2 currently. If the Ei and the Shuguang are too bright, try the JJ in V1. If I had to pick, my top 3 tubes to get would be a Tungsram, a Telefunken ribbed-plate and a Raytheon black plate. Close up would be Millard, RFT and Amperex. 

Some time I'll tell you the story of trying to ship your amp while having to take a dog 2.5 hours away for emergency perianal hernia surgery. I've had a fun week.


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> I believe what you are looking at is the TREMOLO circuit which involves bias modulation.
> 
> What type of modification or what did they modify for bias control?



Okay, it works now so I'm inclined to be happy with it and not overanalyze. The main problems were a bad pot and a bad ground connection. I replaced the mains cable with a 3-prong and removed the ground toggle switch and put a high-quality 50k pot in it's place. The only bug left is that there's some signal coming through when the amp is on standby. I need to get a soldering gun to do anything else to it. My 30w iron won't touch that factory solder.

The amp sounds fantastic but needs a speaker upgrade. I'm thinking about a WGS ET65. On the cool side, the tremolo is mind-bendingly deep but a little too fast. Would a different capacitor value fix that? It's really great to watch the blue glow in the 6BQ5's pulse with the tremolo.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Okay, it works now so I'm inclined to be happy with it and not overanalyze. The main problems were a bad pot and a bad ground connection. I replaced the mains cable with a 3-prong and removed the ground toggle switch and put a high-quality 50k pot in it's place. The only bug left is that there's some signal coming through when the amp is on standby. I need to get a soldering gun to do anything else to it. My 30w iron won't touch that factory solder.
> 
> The amp sounds fantastic but needs a speaker upgrade. I'm thinking about a WGS ET65. On the cool side, the tremolo is mind-bendingly deep but a little too fast. Would a different capacitor value fix that? It's really great to watch the blue glow in the 6BQ5's pulse with the tremolo.


You place a 50k potentiometer where the death cap switch was located or in place of the INTENSITY control potentiometer? ???

I am trying to figure which amplifier you have, maybe the YGM-2?


----------



## {JAKE}

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Jake!
> 
> Yeah, that's my Class 5 you're getting. Too cool. I was running a Tungsram in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. The Sylvania 6BQ5 I sent you is the tube I was running in the amp. There's a Marshall-branded Shuguang in V1 and a Marshall Sovtek in V2 currently. If the Ei and the Shuguang are too bright, try the JJ in V1. If I had to pick, my top 3 tubes to get would be a Tungsram, a Telefunken ribbed-plate and a Raytheon black plate. Close up would be Millard, RFT and Amperex.
> 
> Some time I'll tell you the story of trying to ship your amp while having to take a dog 2.5 hours away for emergency perianal hernia surgery. I've had a fun week.



Sorry to hear about all that, I hope all ended well. And thanks again for the tubes


----------



## RiverRatt

mickeydg5 said:


> You place a 50k potentiometer where the death cap switch was located or in place of the INTENSITY control potentiometer? ???
> 
> I am trying to figure which amplifier you have, maybe the YGM-2?



No, it's definitely a YGM-3. Like I said, I haven't found a schematic that matches it exactly. I took the switch and cap out and used the hole to mount the bias pot. I didn't do anything to the tremolo.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm so used to seeing twisted heater wires.


----------



## RiverRatt

{JAKE} said:


> Sorry to hear about all that, I hope all ended well. And thanks again for the tubes



Yeah, he's a tough little mutt. If somebody reattached my rectum and cut off my balls I don't think I would have much spring in my step but he's already back to normal.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Alan, will this help? It's from 2008. It's an RI.

http://traynoramps.com/downloads/servman/smygm3.pdf


----------



## jack daniels

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well a Tung-Sol RI is going to be bright compared to a NOS Mullard.



I can't speak as to the NOS Mullards but it's different with the Tung-Sol RI vs. Mullard RI. I had a NOS GT12AX7M in V2 of my 63' Vibroverb Reissue amp, and I thought it sounded great until I popped in a Tung Sol 12AX7. The Tung Sol had more gain at 4 and was "fatter/beefier" than the GT 12AX7M at that same volume level (which seems to be the starting point for these amps).


----------



## jack daniels

RiverRatt said:


> No, it's definitely a YGM-3. Like I said, I haven't found a schematic that matches it exactly. I took the switch and cap out and used the hole to mount the bias pot. I didn't do anything to the tremolo.



Get in touch with Traynor for your schematic.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Alan, will this help? It's from 2008. It's an RI.
> 
> http://traynoramps.com/downloads/servman/smygm3.pdf



I've downloaded it and it's close but not quite the same. I probably will have to contact Traynor but now that it's working it's not a high priority. If anyone can come up with a proper Traynor logo for it I would be deeply indebted.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Wow you got the first version that was discontinued in 1974.


----------



## jack daniels

RiverRatt said:


> I've downloaded it and it's close but not quite the same. I probably will have to contact Traynor but now that it's working it's not a high priority. If anyone can come up with a proper Traynor logo for it I would be deeply indebted.



My buddy has an old Traynor guitar mate that has groove tubes and a fender emminence 12" speaker. That amp is to die for when it comes to the ultimate Fender type clean sounds, I love it.

If you can't find a logo anywhere including "flea bay". I'd suggest you still get in touch with Traynor and get the schematic (for posterity's sake) and logo. These guys are pretty helpful and nice to work with. I got in touch with Traynor to (update/refurbish) my YBA200 head.

http://traynoramps.com/legacy/discontinued/product/yba200/


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks man, I'll get with them on the logo. I can't find one anywhere, including eBay. You're right, the tone is incredible. With the volume at noon it starts to break up nicely and with it dimed it reminds me of a Marshall 1974. It's like the best of both worlds. If I do anything else to it, I might move the bias pot back inside and put a PPIMV on the back panel.


----------



## jack daniels

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks man, I'll get with them on the logo. I can't find one anywhere, including eBay. You're right, the tone is incredible. With the volume at noon it starts to break up nicely and with it dimed it reminds me of a Marshall 1974. It's like the best of both worlds. If I do anything else to it, I might move the bias pot back inside and put a PPIMV on the back panel.



No problem. FWIW don't use a PPIMV, use those with powerful amps like the the JMP f.e. and just get a good OD/Boost pedal. Lately I've been enamored with my Digitech iStomp pedal with the downloaded DOD 250 patch. The DOD 250 is the perfect clean boost, and the OD is sweet also. The DOD 250 doesn't seem to add artifacts or color your sound therefore you get MORE of your guitar w/o the clutter. Just like the real analog DOD 250 pedal, the OD cleans up by backing off on your guitar's volume pot.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Wow you got the first version that was discontinued in 1974.



Yes I did. Basically I got the amp for a $150 bass & amp rig. The two Philips-branded Mullard I63's were icing on the cake. It's definitely one of the best scores I've made in quite awhile.


----------



## RiverRatt

jack daniels said:


> No problem. FWIW don't use a PPIMV, use those with powerful amps like the the JMP f.e. and just get a good OD/Boost pedal. Lately I've been enamored with my Digitech iStomp pedal with the downloaded DOD 250 patch. The DOD 250 is the perfect clean boost, and the OD is sweet also. The DOD 250 doesn't seem to add artifacts or color your sound therefore you get MORE of your guitar w/o the clutter. Just like the real analog DOD 250 pedal, the OD cleans up by backing off on your guitar's volume pot.



I'm there dude. I picked up a 1980's DOD FX50 Overdrive Plus for $20 just a month or so ago. It's called the "poor man's 250”. The circuit is supposed to be virtually identical to the 250. I've been using nothing but it, a Dyna Comp, and my old Strat with Texas Specials. I think the FX50 has a little more drive than the 250 but it sure does sound nice.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> put a high-quality 50k pot in it's place.
> 
> The only bug left is that there's some signal coming through when the amp is on standby.
> 
> the tremolo is mind-bendingly deep but a little too fast. Would a different capacitor value fix that?


The bias potentiometer is a modification. You need to get your Tremolo voltages set correctly and the bias is based on that. Notice the -28V and -15.5V at the bias networks 15k between the capacitors.

You can have signal and operation in STANBY if the switch is faulty. It has to be fully open, disconnected when switched. Check that.

The Tremolo has a SPEED control. Make sure the potentiometer is good as well as the connections/solder along with the resistor from wiper to ground.

Here are some more schematics. Take a good look at the last one. It is an earlier YGM-3, maybe more similar to yours.
http://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/traynor/traynor_guitarmate_ygm3.pdf


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks, the last schematic in the file is the closest. I had a copy in GIF format that someone had marked up with a few mods. This one is much cleaner. I knew the bias pot was a mod. I wish I'd taken a pic before I cleaned it up. 

All I've checked was the bias voltage at the EL84's. The tremolo works fine when the power tubes are dialed in. I'll check the voltages when I open it up to check the Standby switch.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> I just scored an old Traynor Guitar Mate Reverb that I'm trying to exercise the demons from. I scored a couple of I63 Mullards with the amp, a 1961 and a 1962, the latter of which tests above 100℅. I couldn't believe they weren't I61's with those early date codes. I guess there was more overlapping of the type codes than I ever suspected.
> 
> If what I read about Traynor serial numbers is correct, the amp was made in the 11th week of 1972. It has a beautiful hand-wired eyelet board with a funky bias mod that may be most of my problem. The guy I got it from didn't know a tube amp from a bicycle. It looks like it's been in someone's garage for 30 years.



Congrats on the Traynor score Alan! And welcome to the Traynor Club as well!

I have always wanted one of those for sure. They have been on my Traynor want list for some time now LOL. Is it heavy for a combo amp?

I came into this thread just wanting to ask a general question about the Shuquang 12AX7B's. I needed some 12AX7's for loading up amps I am working on and was just looking for cheap as possible but new or almost new 12AX7's for also loading into a couple Marshall amps I might sell.

I found a good deal for new 12AX7B's for $4 each. Just wondering the tonal differences between these and the older 80's/90's square getter Chinese and the later C9's?


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks Ricky, I'm really pleased with the amp. It's one of those that makes you want to play every time you look at it. It's not that heavy - maybe a little more than a Deluxe Reverb but more bulky. It's still a good grab-n-go size.

I've used the 12AX7B in several amps and they sound decent. If you are wanting to load up amps to sell, $4 each is a great price. I had a lot of them at one time but I think I loaded them all in amps I was selling...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Chinese tubes are not like NOS tubes. The older Chinese tubes are not as good as the newest ones. The early Shuguangs were almost guaranteed to be hissy in the gain stages.

In my circles, the AX7B does not get a lot of love. The difference between the B and a new Shuguang AC7HG+ is dramatic.

I hate to say this, but I would rather use a standard JJ AX7 than a AX7B.

I wouldn't even use them if I was unloading the amp.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Here's a review on the AX7B.



> These look like they should be pretty kick a**. They are a gainy little 12AX7. They remind me of the Sylvania STR 12AX7, only the Sylvania is graveyard quiet. These were hissy little tubes. I got a whole boatload cheap. I thought maybe I got bad ones, but others are about the same. The noise is not guitar amp objectionable, until you are in the studio. Rating like with like, and not with NOS these are an oaky value. I have had noisy RCAs too, but not consistently. These just have some hiss. Nothing major like hum, or dirty pot scritchy scratchy noises. They have the usual kinda shortened life we come to expect for the price paid. GAINY LITTLE SUCKAS! These test hot too!


----------



## RiverRatt

The review sounds kinda like my experience. I didn't notice anything that bad about 'em when I put them in an amp. All Chinese tubes sound a little thin and fizzy to me but I think any of them sound better than CP Russian tubes. I haven't tried any of those AC7HG+ tubes. I always thought the old square-getter Shuguangs sounded decent.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well $4 a pop is pretty cheap if that's what a guy wants.

As far as Shuguang all I can say is that they have come a long way since making those old square getter 12AX7's.

That AC7HG+ is the Ruby number and all that is left of them is whatever some dealers might have in stock. Doug's Tubes is pretty much out of the Ruby's and what is left is the bottom of the barrel. I ordered 4 of them from Doug and only one tested as a good high gain tube. I sent all 4 tubes back so he could see if he could find 3 other tubes to match up with the good one. He ended up going through about 100 of the Gold Lion Plain Pin 12AX7's (same tube as the AC7HG+) to find three more tubes for me. For being touted as the best Chinese 12AX7 I find it a little alarming that the tubes I got were badly lopsided with one triode testing around 25 on my B and K and the other at 35. The good one tested 32-32.

Apparently Shuguang made a shitload of these tubes and they were widely relabeled. One relabeler renigged on an order and New Sensor bought 30,000 of them and had them all relabeled as Gold Lions. As I said six months ago, we now have New Sensor (Russian tubes) selling Shuguang (Chinese) tubes. Crazy times.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I guess I shouldn't have said I was alarmed about the quality of the Ruby's. It's pretty much a given.

I you recall Alan, The Tube Store sent me some Northern Electric 12AX7's and Preferred Series 7025's. The Preferred Series are the exact same tube as the AC7HG+, I sent them to several of you guys to try out. One of the $58 Northern Electrics was microphonic and none of them were balanced very well. The Preferred Series fared a little better. The bottom line is that no matter how expensive a CP tube is, they still can have issues.


----------



## MarshallDog

Anyone try the new Mullard CV4004/12AX7 tube yet? I am curious based on the fact that it is similar but warmer than the 12AX7/ECC83 based on the review at the tube store.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The Mullard 4004RI is considered to sound very close to the Tung-Sol.

Mullard CV4004RI






NOS Mullard CV4004






Tung-Sol 12AX7RI






TAD 7025WA






4004 Review



> This tube sounds terrific in my DSL 50 combo. I put it in V1 with a tung sol in V2. While I love the Tung Sol RI's, these tubes sounded nearly identical, except they had a tiny bit less midrange. The tube did seem quieter breakup wise than the Tung Sol with more headroom too. The cv4004 really shined on the red channel of the DSL 50. It attenuated some of the higher frequency grain these amps have, especially higher up on the fret board, and on the high e and b strings. Excellent tube, I will purchase more. Great for the classic and ultra gain channel, cranked of course. Hard rock and metal players should check these out, but classic rock, blues, and country players shouldn't shy away. The tone is there. (Posted on 5/26/14)



There seems to be some very good CP short plates available right now. They lend themselves well to demanding environments such as a 100 watt combos. While a long plate tends to be fatter and warmer sounding, these short plates are more focused and brighter. They are more suited for lead guitar where the notes can cut through the mix.


----------



## bman

in my personal experience the Tung-Sol reissue sounds the best. I have tried Ruby, JJ, Groove tube, Electro, and stock. The Tung-Sol is very balanced, meaning highs, mids, and lows seem to be equal. Also very, very low noise. I just wish they were a pinch hotter. If you could make a tung-sol re-issue a little more high gain it would be the ULTIMATE Marshall pre-amp tube!


----------



## EndGame00

I bought a single new prod cv4004 by Mullard, popped them in v1. Warm and smoother top end. The TungSol ri tend to have that slight fizz on the top end when slotted in v1... The cv4004 are definitely good for classic rock. It has sightly more gain and headroom than the other cp Mullard preamp tube.... more robust... I had two cp Mullards that failed prematurely


----------



## MartyStrat54

Thanks for the input, EndGame.

I do want to say that just like the Mullard RI 12AX7, the Mullard CV4004 bears no resemblance to the NOS 4004. Only the name is being used. A NOS 4004 is a completely different sounding tube.


----------



## MarshallDog

Guys, thanks a bunch for the feedback and info on the new Mullard CV4004RI. I may have to pick a few up and give them a try?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Some guys only buy tubes when they need to.

I buy tubes when I want to.

It's always nice to have different tubes to try and for backup.

You will also find out that a tube that doesn't float your boat in one amp might sound killer in another amp.


----------



## {JAKE}

RiverRatt said:


> Hey Jake!
> 
> Yeah, that's my Class 5 you're getting. Too cool. I was running a Tungsram in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2. The Sylvania 6BQ5 I sent you is the tube I was running in the amp. There's a Marshall-branded Shuguang in V1 and a Marshall Sovtek in V2 currently. If the Ei and the Shuguang are too bright, try the JJ in V1. If I had to pick, my top 3 tubes to get would be a Tungsram, a Telefunken ribbed-plate and a Raytheon black plate. Close up would be Millard, RFT and Amperex.
> 
> Some time I'll tell you the story of trying to ship your amp while having to take a dog 2.5 hours away for emergency perianal hernia surgery. I've had a fun week.



Alan,

The amp arrived in the mail yesterday  I snagged a Tungsram and two Baldwin branded Raytheon black plate 12AX7's off the Bay to go with it. I'm hoping to get a chance to make some noise with it today or tomorrow.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Let us know what you think about those tubes. The Tungsram is all about rock music.


----------



## RiverRatt

{JAKE} said:


> Alan,
> 
> The amp arrived in the mail yesterday  I snagged a Tungsram and two Baldwin branded Raytheon black plate 12AX7's off the Bay to go with it. I'm hoping to get a chance to make some noise with it today or tomorrow.



Good deal! I hope it survived the trip in good condition. You can never find the perfect odd-sized box for stuff like that. Give us a tone report when you can.


----------



## EndGame00

Has anyone tried those Tungsol gold pin?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Are you talking about the ECC-803? Not the quietest tube. They might be an issue in a high gain preamp circuit. If you get a good one they have good gain compared to other CP tubes. Pretty good midrange with this tube.


----------



## RickyLee

I pulled the Sovtek 12AX7WA's out of my Marshall 6100 this evening. In their place I put:

CH1 V1A V1B Raytheon 12AX7 Black Plate

CH2 V2A V2B 7025A Holland V6A V6B Mullard ECC83 I63

CH3 V2A 7025A Holland V3 Mullard ECC83 I63 V4 RFT ECC83 V5 Mullard ECC83 I63

V7 phase inverter RCA 12AX7A Long Plate 1959

I was going to put a Mullard ECC83 I61 in for at least V2 and possibly V3, but forgot to get it out and try it.

The Clean CH1 sounds good of course. CH2 got a bit louder and possibly warmer as well. But I did not like the change in CH3. Lead CH3 I had dialed in with those Sovtek WA's. After the valve swap I changed my EQ and settings quite a bit to try and find the sweet spot all over again. Almost had to use the Contour mode with Boost to get my sound somewhat back. I went back to Contour off anyway.

Marty had informed me that the I63 Mullards had more compression than the I61 Mullards. So does that mean that the I63's have more gain?

How about the EQ characteristics between the two?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Both the I61 and I63 can have the same gain. 

The construction of the two are very similar. Mullard's are not known for lots of bottom end. They are all about midrange with a warmer top end. This relates well to the range of a guitar. In an amp like the 6100 they should help cut down on harshness at higher gain settings.

The I61 is more woody and you can say more dry sounding. It is also a tad more detail. The I63 has more midrange punch and is slightly more dominant in the low mids.

The famous 3-D effect of the Mullards you'd find more with the I61's than with the I63's IMO. 

Of course the Mullard tone was established with their long plate design. These are superior to the I61 and I63, but the long plates do not like being in a high volume guitar amp.


----------



## EndGame00

Can anyone recommend a tube that has a good amount of upper mids to it?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Amperex, Philips or MiniWatt. These were all made at the same factory in Holland and have the same basic construction. More upper mids and top end than a Mullard.


----------



## EndGame00

MartyStrat54 said:


> Amperex, Philips or MiniWatt. These were all made at the same factory in Holland and have the same basic construction. More upper mids and top end than a Mullard.



Do you recommend Phillips slotted on V2? I read somewhere the tube can get microphonic on V1.


----------



## Stone_G

Hello,

A new member here. Just to say hi and share some findings. Currently have jcm800 2203 year 2002. Bought secondhand and it still have original tubes ie winged c power tubes and marshall brand preamp tubes ecc83. One red font and 2 yellow font.

Sound wise was very thin and highs are ear piercing. Decided to swaps some tube. So this what I have tested:

1. V1 eh12ax7 gold pin, v2 sovtek 12ax7wb NOS I think, diff box than current sovtek, v3 sovtek 12ax7slp = vol loudness is useable now, less gain, but can play now at vol 1.5, pre vol at 1.5 bedroom level. Tone is huge and all ear piercing highs gone. Drawback is loose some gain. Dunno why.

2. V1 telefunken 12ax7 nos as claimed by seller, and v2 and v3 as above. = tone as above just a bit more gain and clarity. But I prefer more gain. But amp is usable. 

3. V1 Raytheon 12ax7 nos long plate and v2 v3 as above. Tone wise same as no 2 above but I'm getting more gain.

Well, why do you guys think that all the above setup makes my amp loose the gain, comparing to original stock tubes?

I still have nos tubes like toshiba 12ax7 long plate, GE 5751 and CP tungsol 12ax7 which i still have not try it yet. 

Thanks


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the short answer is that I think your stock tubes are Chinese and they tend to be high gain. The old stock tubes you are using could be worn out or just have less gain. Just because a 12AX7 is new doesn't mean it is high gain.


----------



## Stone_G

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well the short answer is that I think your stock tubes are Chinese and they tend to be high gain. The old stock tubes you are using could be worn out or just have less gain. Just because a 12AX7 is new doesn't mean it is high gain.



Thanks Marty

Yes maybe you are right, I just bought those tubes without even knowing their stats or tested or what. I'm new to this swapping tubes. But I have been using tube amp for quite some times. I have 2 other amps vox ac30cc1 and fender deluxe reverb ri.

Do you think my jcm800 will be getting more gain if I swap also tubes in v2 and v3?

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

Check this out. A friend of mine picked it up while I was out of town. I'm going to go check it out this evening.





All I know is that it's a Hammond. Dude says the tubes are Sylvania and GE.


----------



## EndGame00

I got my JAN Philips 12AX7 in the mail today and popped it in the V2 on my Fargen.... The upper mids has just got even sweeter.... The amp itself has a chunky bottom end, but man, the upper mids on that the Philips tube is pronounced, but not too top-endy... It is great for singing single note solos... now I wanna hear this with a greenback 

I love it.


----------



## MarshallDog

Have a set of the new JJ 12AX7 MG's (Mid Gain). They have a little less gain than the 12AX7's but more than a Jan GE 5751 so they say. I love the 5751 in V1 on my DSL 40C and I am curious as to how the amp will sound loaded up with these? Anyone have any feedback/experience with these?


----------



## Stone_G

Hello,

You have the tubes in your hand right? Just swap and see whether you like it? Only thru hearing you will know whether good or bad. Don't be afraid to swaps. I personally have swapping tubes everyday to hear the differences. Just be careful with the voltage and switch off and pull out plug from wall outlet.


----------



## MarshallDog

Stone_G said:


> Hello,
> 
> You have the tubes in your hand right? Just swap and see whether you like it? Only thru hearing you will know whether good or bad. Don't be afraid to swaps. I personally have swapping tubes everyday to hear the differences. Just be careful with the voltage and switch off and pull out plug from wall outlet.



I guess I should have mentioned that they are only the way, don't have them yet...


----------



## MarshallDog

Stone_G said:


> Hello,
> 
> You have the tubes in your hand right? Just swap and see whether you like it? Only thru hearing you will know whether good or bad. Don't be afraid to swaps. I personally have swapping tubes everyday to hear the differences. Just be careful with the voltage and switch off and pull out plug from wall outlet.



I have been swapping tubes on a regular basis and cant wait until I get her where I want her and I am done with it...


----------



## Stone_G

Oppss my bad, sorry ya


----------



## Luis Goi

Hello Guys,

I have a DSL40c and after a few months tweaking I could achieve the clean tone I was looking for (something near the JTM45 sound). The crunch, distorted and “distorted to hell” tones I’ve already had found since my first day with the amp J

I’m going to US for vacation so that I have the opportunity to buy new tubes (preamp and power) for a good price (I live in Brazil). That’s why I’m asking for some advices of you more experienced guys.

For preamp, I´d like to tame the brightness of the lead channel, specially the Lead1. And, if it is possible, use the same equalization for both channels. I’ve read something about to put a 5751 in V2 for that purpose. Is that correct? Are there other options?

Is ECC83 for V1 and V3 the most indicated? I love the way the amp sound in crunch mode, so this channel characteristics is my priority.

And what about V4 (phase inverter, if I’m not wrong)? What is the most indicated type of tube for that position?

On the power side, I´d like something with a little more headroom. I play with a GT-100 in the loop very often. For this purpose, a tube that breaks up too early can mess the tone. I´m not sure if I can handle with that only shifting the bias. Do I?

I saw that Groove Tubes offers what they call high rating tubes. It supposed to give me more headroom. But I don’t know if they make the amp loose its characteristics. Does anyone have experience with this type of tube?

This is a liable brand? I’ll not have the opportunity to change malfunction tubes :-/

What brands would you guys recommend me? I don’t want to spend a big money in NOS tubes but can spend more than for entry level tubes.

Any help will be welcome. That is my first tube amp 

Cheers,


----------



## MartyStrat54

Sorry for the week delay in responding. By coming to the USA I assume you are looking at buying new, current production tubes.

You say you are happy with your clean tone, but the lead channel is too bright? Keep in mind that V1 consists of two sections, A and B. One section is the first gain stage for the clean channel and the other section is the first gain stage for the lead channel. To tame the brightness in the lead channel with a different tube will alter your clean tone as well.

For the PI I would recommend the Sovtek LPS or a JJ ECC83.

For V1 I would put in a Mullard RI in V1. This tube is not as bright as the Tung-Sol or Chinese 12AX7's.

You may want to run another Mullard RI in V2. If you need it darker then put a JJ in V2.

Here is some info.

Tung-Sol, EH and Shuguang tubes are bright. Shuguang is widely relabeled by various vendors.

Mullard, Gold Lion Gold Pin and some Sovtek tubes are not as bright.

JJ is the darkest current production tube.

I don't know what your budget is, but if you can get a couple of Mullard RI's, a couple of JJ's, a couple of Shuguang and a couple of Tung-Sol's. You will then be able to experiment with the tubes in V1 and V2.

For V3 I recommend a JJ.

For power I would recommend the Shuguang or TAD EL34's. IIRC the Shuguang is the factory provided tube for the 40C. With this in mind please note that with the DSL the preamp tubes will make the biggest impact on your tone.

A step up would be a pair of vintage RFT EL34's. This run about $125 a pair.

Avoid Winged C tubes being sold as they are probably B stock.


----------



## Luis Goi

Hello Marty.

Thanks a lot for your reply. I’ve been reading your posts about tubes recently and they are very useful. Thanks, once again ;-)

Indeed, I was looking for current production tubes. But, since you said the biggest impact will come from the preamp tubes, one of your recommendations for power tube was the same tube that comes in the amp from factory and the power tubes tend to last more than a year, I can spend a little more in a NOS preamp tube for V1, and buy the power tubes latter. What brand/model would you recommend me? I like the original tones, but if I could choose, I’d rather a little mellower distortions, especially in the ultra-gain channel (lead1/lead2).

However, my mainly aim with this tube change is to tame the brightness in the ultra-gain channel and try to equalize both channels in terms of treble, mid and bass response. I kept the original speaker and intend to clip the C19. Do you know if V2 and V3 are exclusively for ultra-gain in DLS amps or they supply vintage channel too (clean/crunch)? If they are exclusively for ultra-gain, I can put a darker tube on positions V2 and V3. Am I right?

Have you ever heard about putting a 5751 in V2 in order to tame the brightness in the ultra-gain channel? Anyway, I’ll follow your advice and buy a Mullard and a JJ to make some tests in V2.

Lastly, do you know a reliable store that sells NOS and current production tubes by internet? If is not allowed to recommend stores in the forum, please, send me a pm.

Thanks again for the reply,


----------



## MartyStrat54

A 5751 will lower the gain. It may not necessarily tame the brightness,

You have four gain stages: V1A/V1B and V2A/V2B.
V3 is the Tone Stack/Cathode Follower
V4 is the Phase Inverter

V1 and V4 are your most important tubes.

Tube stores that sell CP and NOS tubes tend to be high priced on their NOS tubes.

You would probably like an RFT in V1. These are still available as used or NOS. The RFT is a darker sounding tube with good gain.

I don't think you understood my prior post about how your preamp circuit is laid out. V1 is the first gain stage for both of your channels. V1 makes the biggest impact on the amps tone and it affects "both" the clean and lead channels. To darken or alter the lead channel you will have to change V1 and this will affect the clean channel. The tube you use in V2 will alter V1's tone a little bit, but it will affect the clean channel too as the clean channel uses part of V1 and part of V2.

To obtain what you are wanting to do will require some circuit modification. I don't think tubes will accomplish what you are wanting.


----------



## mickeydg5

Luis
I agree, tubewise replacing either V1 or V2 will affect all channels.
Check out the DSL40C thread too. There are lots of recommendations but most concern swapping the speaker and C19 modification.


----------



## spikei

Anybody got an opinion on these tubes.
Golden dragon ecc83 T
JJ ecc83 MG
These are both new tubes to me and i have just installed them in my JVM -GDT in V3 and JJMG in V4.
The GDT is i think a shuguang/china tube, to me it is more musical & less aggressive than the std ecc83 they produce
The JJMG is a less compressed and more open sounding tube than the std JJ ecc83
Both of these tubes are very good and have different characteristics to the predecessors, I have never been a fan of the JJ ecc83 because it sounded so compressed but this JJMG is much less compressed and more open, the GDT is a lot more musical and less aggressive, both these tubes are good news to me as it shows CP tubes are being developed and improved.


----------



## Luis Goi

Hello Guys,

Thanks, once more, for the reply.

Marty,
Now, I can understand the role each tube position performs in the preamp. Thanks for your help and advices. Sorry for insisting on this, but could you direct me to a store that sell NOS tubes on internet? I could find KCA, NOS Tubes Store, Doug’s Tubes, Tejas and The Tube Store. Are they reliable?



Mickey,
Actually, I am a regular reader of that forum. It helped me a lot in finding the tones I was looking for and how to deal with the differences in equalization between the two channels. Thanks for have created and mediate it.
I’ll probably try the C19 mod soon.

Cheers,


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I know that the Tube Store, KCA and Doug's are okay to deal with.


----------



## dslman

Great thread guy's , really enjoying it, I'm way back on page 21 , but learning a lot .


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well let me point out something to you about this thread. It was started a long time ago and various members recommendations have changed. My current recommendations are a lot different from 2009.

I had a great time tube rolling with Solar and RiverRatt.


----------



## dslman

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well let me point out something to you about this thread. It was started a long time ago and various members recommendations have changed. My current recommendations are a lot different from 2009.
> 
> I had a great time tube rolling with Solar and RiverRatt.


That's good stuff, it's kinda like reading a good book and it doesn't get boring to me . I ordered the 7025 based on your recommendation for V1 ,although I had to get the 7025 Preferred Series from the tube store. It had the same description as the TAD as far as build quality, maybe not testing wise though. If I like it ,I'll get a TAD when I can.


----------



## MartyStrat54

The following tubes are identical. All are made by Shuguang.

1.Ruby 12AX7AC7HG+ (no longer available. It sold for $24.)
2.TAD 7025S
3.Preferred Series 7025
4.Gold Lion Plain Pin 12AX7


----------



## dslman

MartyStrat54 said:


> The following tubes are identical. All are made by Shuguang.
> 
> 1.Ruby 12AX7AC7HG+ (no longer available. It sold for $24.)
> 2.TAD 7025S
> 3.Preferred Series 7025
> 4.Gold Lion Plain Pin 12AX7


Ok thanks, that's good to know. The world of tubes is very intriguing and hearing their different characteristics is lots of fun when your amp is working correctly. Can't wait for the 7025 to come in , looks like it arrives tomorrow, wow that's fast shipping . What do you think about the old VLVE 00041 Philips white label, Marshall branded ? You listed it in your revision to the Marshall branded pre tubes , I think it is Yugoslavian.


----------



## RiverRatt

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well let me point out something to you about this thread. It was started a long time ago and various members recommendations have changed. My current recommendations are a lot different from 2009.
> 
> I had a great time tube rolling with Solar and RiverRatt.



For real. What I liked was when we all heard the same qualities in a particular tube. For me, that was the confirmation that we were really on to something. The Raytheon/V2 tone in a Marshall is the one that really stands out, but there were many other examples.

Where is old Joe? I don't get on here much any more but it seems like most of the old crew has disappeared.


----------



## RiverRatt

dslman said:


> What do you think about the old VLVE 00041 Philips white label, Marshall branded ? You listed it in your revision to the Marshall branded pre tubes , I think it is Yugoslavian.



Those were made by Ei and were Marshall's stock tubes in the JCM2000 amps until Ei went tits up. I like them in V1 - they tend to be bright and gainy, but they can be noisy too. I think they make a good PI tube.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hey Alan. Yeah, I would have to agree about us discovering how well a Raytheon Black Plate worked in V2.

Remember when we all got so worked up over Black Plates that I put four of them in a TSL100? I didn't like it. I realized that a Black Plate likes to see a "guitar" tube in front of it.

I also liked discussing the more obscure 12AX7's such as the Sonotone Side Getter.

Solar comes over here about as often as you. If I need to get a hold of him I have his PH# and we are friends on Facebook.


----------



## dslman

RiverRatt said:


> Those were made by Ei and were Marshall's stock tubes in the JCM2000 amps until Ei went tits up. I like them in V1 - they tend to be bright and gainy, but they can be noisy too. I think they make a good PI tube.


Thanks RR It's the most exotic " if you will" that I have. I have it in V1 right now and that's exactly what I hear . What's your take on balanced PI tubes, I've got mine mixed up with the others now and don't know which one it is. It's looks like my couple other JJecc83s.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Yes it is an Ei. I would test it in V1 to see how it performs. If there are no ringing or excessive noise then I would use it in V2 at first with the TAD in V1.

Keep in mind that the TAD is like what Alan said about the Ei. It is a bright/high gain tube.

Ei bought Telefunken's tube equipment and the Ei ECC83 is a reproduction of a Tele Smooth Plate, but it is not as neutral as the Tele. They look the same, but they don't sound the same. The early prewar Ei's were very good tubes. Post war tubes gain have quality control issues. If they work, they work well.


----------



## dslman

Very interesting, yes it performs well in V1 and no noise at all , that is one of my pet peeves . It's bright and aggressive in a real good way. You actually answered what was on my mind, which was the V2 suggestion.


----------



## dslman

Marty, you made a comment back around pg. 28-30 that the JJ pre seemed to have a "filter on the highs" , at first one's inclined to hear it as just warmth and gain, but for me since I've been using them for a few months , I tend to agree with your quote. There is also a consensus in the early posts that the JJ's are not popular in V1/V2 , I agree and wonder if something else would also be better in V3 other than a JJ.
There must really be some special qualities to the NOS and ANOS tubes . I get lost in all the technical stuff and names/codes you guys use , but I hang on and learn what I can from it all. Heck , I even enjoy the pics. ,kinda like going back in time. 
My neighbor is a scrapper who goes around and picks up stuff people throw away, wonder if I should ask him to lookout for anything special that may have some old tubes in it.


----------



## Oatie

I enjoy reading all the tube tips n tricks and the time Marty, Alan and others put into the research. I been playing and collecting for a long time and I have about 5 or 6 tube caddys full now.I'm going to look at all my caddy boxes this weekend and see what I find. I am trying to organize everything. 
I found 2 sleeves of Raytheon 5881 tubes yesterday that I misplaced. These fat-boy (Sylvania made?) 5881 Raytheon dual-side-getter tubes sound very close to the old GEC KT66 in the early Marshalls. The tubes have a beautiful blue glow to them and are quality. The plate construction almost looks like the early Tung Sol design. It's the fattest base I have ever seen. I also used em in a quad Tweed Twin and the bases almost touch each other in the sockets. I had to remove the wing-spring tube retainers to use the tubes. They make the old 6L6GC tubes look like toys.
I posted this 5881 pic before and asked about the tube, but most people have never seen one before.

My old Hickok 539C is from 1968 and near mint. It came from a college university sale and I had to pay 1400.00 for it in a bid war, original books, manuals, a complete set of attachments. I don'[t think I will ever see another so clean. The tube chart rolls perfect and fast, no wear at all. 
Without a good tube tester you are lost when it comes to picking tubes.
You can see some of my tube boxes have the tube readings for both triodes. A 12AX7 that reads 2400 vs. one that reads 1650 is like night and day in the PI of your amp. Like Marty says, V1 and V4 are key, but if you have the resources V1, V2, V3 and V4 are all important.

In my old Fender's with the 12AT7 PI, I use the 1982-84 era JAN Mullards CV4024 in both 12AT7 slots in my Twin Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reverb and my old 1961 Fender Reverb Units.


----------



## dslman

That is an amazing collection Oatie, thanks for posting those pics for all to see. I'm sure the guru's here on this thread will have some fun discussing things with you, I on the other hand have to rely on my ears and advise you guys give. Here is what I have now in a 2203x , as I got the 7025 today. 
V1-- PS 7025
V2-- Ei ecc83
V3--JJECC83S


----------



## RiverRatt

Nice tubes Oatie. I have had an other 6L6 variant with act an base and very similar construction to your CK5881 but it was so long ago that I can't remember the number. I'd love to try those in an amp. The Tung-Sol 5881 is one of my all-time favorite output tubes.


----------



## Oatie

I'm pulling the cases out now to take some pics.


----------



## Oatie

I am making this my Fender Deluxe/Twin Reverb Amp Caddy Case, I started loading the 20 old Mullard GZ34 tubes, a bunch of old 6L6GC and 6V6GTA tubes and some misc preamp tubes. I found a quad of the Siemens matched EL34 I'm gonna use on my 1970 Super Lead. I love these tubes.
And the tubes in the Raytheon Boxes are the 5Y3GT/ 6087 Dual-Getter Rectifier black plate critters, they are the ultimate 5Y3GT tube. I have some GE 5-Star 6087 tubes as well. They are perfect in a Deluxe Tweed or any other 5Y3GT amp, makes a Tweed Champ a Tweed Champion. You can hear a change when you use a regular 5Y3GT and a 6V6GT single getter tube and then swap them for the 6087 and 6V6GTA dual getter power tube. I leave the same preamp tube in, a strong long plate Sylvania, this way you can listen to the changes with the rectifier and the power tube. For new stock, the JJ 6V6S is a great tube, they got that tube right.


















And my 1966 Twin Reverb w/JBL D131F speakers,
















And the Deluxe with the 6087 5-Star Rectifier and the 6V6GTY Dual Getter power tubes brown bases, these old tubes really make the amps sound the best they cab be. Anyone who believes old NOS tubes are no big deal have never owned the good ones.




​


----------



## RiverRatt

Fock. 

I've sold off almost all my good tubes. Desperate times and all...


----------



## Jaymz E

I need to get me a stash of old tubes, I can't afford a CP stash let along all NOS tubes. I would like to have an old GZ34 for my Orange AD30.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Do you guys know much about Westinghouse? rebrand? if so, who? any good?






Also, I found some that say they are French mfgr. Cifte brand. Anyone know anything about those?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Westinghouse made some of their own tubes and rebranded tubes as well, especially be the mid-60's.

I don't know anything about that CIFTE tube. I will say with a triple mica construction and the short plates it should be microphonic free in a 100 watt combo.

EDIT-A quick search reveals that they are made by Mazda for the French military.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I just found the image of the WH tube & updated my post. It's a JAN, so it's military spec'. I can get them for pretty cheap.

Also, I see other tubes floating around for real cheap, like ECC89 & 5755 tubes. The 5755 says its a low power stage 1 only tube.

Is there a place that has all the tube code/# & what they are in relation to each other? I see the antique radio site, but it doesn't give much info on some, unless you join, but, then there's no guarantee that there's any more info...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well the information is scattered all over the place. I wish there was one source on the Internet for tube info.

What sort of info are you interested in? What codes are you talking about? Date/production codes?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

like I said, I've been scouring through NOS tubes online & a couple I ran across were:

ECC89 & 5755 

I know about the 5751, but 5755? Likewise, the ECC81, 2 & 3, but what about the 9 or 7?

Are they amp friendly/compatible? What would the difference between an ECC83 & an ECC89 be? same w/ the 5751 & 5755?

But, looking through NOS tubes, I'm finding a lot more codes that say they are a replacement for say the 12AX7, but have yet, another code. Being a replacement doesn't necessarily mean same spec's, right?. Like the gain factor on a 7025 vs a 5751, vs a ECC83, etc. Power tubes as well...


----------



## MartyStrat54

None of my data (so far) has any info on an ECC89.

The 5755 is a dual triode tube like a 12AX7, but it has a different pinout and all nine pins are connected internally. It is not a sub for a common guitar preamp tube.

http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/138/5/5755.pdf

Take a look at the info. They burn these tubes for 150 hours! Wow!

I don't know if you are aware that USA tubes that use four numbers as a part number are classified as industrial tubes. Many of the popular consumer tubes had an industrial tube that could be substituted. 7025, 5751, 6201 are some of the more common industrial tubes that can be used in guitar amp.


----------



## mickeydg5

ECC89 is not a match.

ECC89 = 6FC7

TDSL Tube data [ECC89]


----------



## Dogs of Doom

funny, the NOS 5755 that I ran across is:






I guess they have quite a bunch. They are selling them for around $8/ea...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks like an ECC89 is similar to a 6FC7. These tubes are designed for extremely high frequencies.

These tubes have a B9A pin out which is the same as a 12A*7 tube.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

mickeydg5 said:


> ECC89 is not a match.
> 
> ECC89 = 6FC7
> 
> TDSL Tube data [ECC89]


Yeah, that was about all I could find as well, but it doesn't tell me much. I'm not versed in a lot of other tubes.


----------



## MartyStrat54

http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/127/6/6FC7.pdf


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> Looks like an ECC89 is similar to a 6FC7. These tubes are designed for extremely high frequencies.
> 
> These tubes have a B9A pin out which is the same as a 12A*7 tube.


so, regardless if they "worked", they are not ideal for guitar in any way...


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Here's one I pulled from my SVT. Not sure what it is...






AGH ECG 722?


----------



## Jaymz E

dslman said:


> Marty, you made a comment back around pg. 28-30 that the JJ pre seemed to have a "filter on the highs" , at first one's inclined to hear it as just warmth and gain, but for me since I've been using them for a few months , I tend to agree with your quote. There is also a consensus in the early posts that the JJ's are not popular in V1/V2 , I agree and wonder if something else would also be better in V3 other than a JJ.
> There must really be some special qualities to the NOS and ANOS tubes . I get lost in all the technical stuff and names/codes you guys use , but I hang on and learn what I can from it all. Heck , I even enjoy the pics. ,kinda like going back in time.
> My neighbor is a scrapper who goes around and picks up stuff people throw away, wonder if I should ask him to lookout for anything special that may have some old tubes in it.



I would get up with your neighbor, He might be picking up old TVs and audio equipment thats loaded with good old tube treasures. A lot of times one tube will go bad and the others will still be good.


----------



## RiverRatt

Looks like the tube number is near the top left of your tube as it is positioned in the photo. Just a guess, it looks like it may be a 6CG7/6FQ7.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Well, I'll be darned... I didn't even see that,. I have another pic of the front. Here's a close-up:






so, it looks like 12BH7A. I had always wondered about those too. I see a lot of 12B tubes, but never knew if they are a replacement for 12AX7, or , like here, does this specific stage require a different value?

Remember, layman's terms are best for everyone. I don't claim to understand the tech spec's. Looking at grid/plate spec's don't mean anything, unless somewhat explained.

This tube is the oddball of everything I robbed from one of my SVT heads. If you remember all the Philips tubes I posted before...


----------



## Dogs of Doom

So, now, I've done quite a bit of reading on the 12BH7A. Some say it's a drop-in replacement for the 12AU7. Some say it's not quite that easy. It draws more current & can toast a tranny, if the tranny is not robust enough. I am wondering if it will drop in, in either the PI, or power section of my JVM1. I'd imagine the tranny is robust enough for a 1 watt amp. If I swapped the power tube, would that change the bias in a bad way? The 1 watt amps are considered not enough power to worry about bias (to a point, I guess), but what do you guys think?

I didn't pay attention to where the tube came from, but I guess it's the PI in the SVT. 

Do you guys think it's worth trying? Or should I try & get hold of Santiago? 

I remember reading one of the guys (from Marshall) said something about rolling tubes & that trying a 12AX7 in the power section shouldn't hurt anything, but when I tried that, it was bad. It was like on every wave, the tube clipped & cut out.

Here's a link that I found about replacement tubes:

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/Tubes/


----------



## mickeydg5

A 5755 has a different pin out than a 5751 so you cannot use it as a substitute.

The 12BH7 is similar to a 12AU7 but can handle more power, has lower plate resistances and uses twice the filament current (.6A versus .3A). It can be used as a replacement but might as well just use a 12AU7.

Why ask Santiago? There are guys here who know more about tubes than most anyone else.


----------



## MartyStrat54

You know I saw a guy yesterday that had posted some tubes he had and I noticed that the pins on some of the tubes were really bent. Then I saw this tube and I have to say that bent pins like this being forced into a socket can spread them creating the potential for poor contact when inserting another tube with straight pins. 






I think every guy with an amp should have a 9 pin straightener.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

mickeydg5 said:


> Why ask Santiago? There are guys here who know more about tubes than most anyone else.


because he knows the design/spec of the JVM1 better than anyone else...

The doubling of the heater current, has led many on other forums to say that it could take a tranny out. Using it in as a power tube, where Santiago has said, that the 12AU7 will be burning harder than normal (in a pre-amp) situation & will wear out considerably faster. I'm wondering how it would affect the draw on the tranny & if it affects bias?

Or... maybe it would perform better?


----------



## Micky

So try it. 

My DSL5c uses a 12bh7 as the final...


----------



## mickeydg5

Dogs of Doom said:


> because he knows the design/spec of the JVM1 better than anyone else...
> 
> The doubling of the heater current, has led many on other forums to say that it could take a tranny out. Using it in as a power tube, where Santiago has said, that the 12AU7 will be burning harder than normal (in a pre-amp) situation & will wear out considerably faster. I'm wondering how it would affect the draw on the tranny & if it affects bias?
> 
> Or... maybe it would perform better?


Oh I understand asking Santiago.
I did not catch that it was in reference to a JVM-1.


----------



## MartyStrat54

This is what I was selling for an upgrade tube for a JVM1.






The 5814 kicks ass as a power tube.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Looking into that, here's something I found:

Observation:The 5814A / 12AU7 variant [Archive] - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums



> All 12AU7 tubes are rated Vhk=200V
> All 5814A tubes are rated Vhk=100V.
> 
> Careful when substituting.



I've been using a Raytheon Black Plate 12AU7.

I just plopped in a Philips 12BH7a & it sounds more robust.


----------



## MartyStrat54

That 200Vkh rating is a peak rating. There are several ways to rate the cathode heater voltage. Take a look at this 12AU7 data sheet in regard to the 100/200Vhk ratings.

http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/093/1/12AU7A.pdf

The 5814 can handle more plate voltage and dissipates 3 watts compared to 2.75 for the 12AU7.


----------



## mickeydg5

I believe the 12BH7 will put out more power quicker.
You have a JVM-2.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I'm waiting for Mercury Magnetics to come out with upgrade transformers.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> That 200Vkh rating is a peak rating. There are several ways to rate the cathode heater voltage. Take a look at this 12AU7 data sheet in regard to the 100/200Vhk ratings.
> 
> http://tubedata.milbert.com/sheets/093/1/12AU7A.pdf
> 
> The 5814 can handle more plate voltage and dissipates 3 watts compared to 2.75 for the 12AU7.


I'll look into it.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> I'm waiting for Mercury Magnetics to come out with upgrade transformers.


For what? The JVM2? ...


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Here's a quick clip. Just noodling:

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/pariht/12bh7-jvm11[/SC]



> Trying out a Philips 12BH7A tube in the power section of my JVM1. It calls for a 12AU7.
> Tele straight into it. 1912 cab's are loaded w/:
> V30
> H30
> mic'd w/ Sennheiser MK4 in an ISO box.
> mixed w/ simulated out going through Alesis MQuadroverb II


----------



## MartyStrat54

I heard a little George Lynch at the end of that clip.

Sounds like there is no shortage of harmonics.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Dogs you probably know that Philips bought Sylvania and the new company name was Electronic Communications Group, ECG.

Sylvania was the last American tube manufacturer and therefore had a monopoly on government/military contracts. Because of this, Sylvania redesigned their tubes to make them exceed Mil-Spec requirements. The ECG tubes are these new, more rugged Sylvania designs.

If you look up a 5814A, there are many data sheets available. However, these reflect older versions of the tubes. The ECG/Sylvania's have stouter ratings than a run of the mill 5814A.

Late production Sylvania/ECG tubes such as a JAN 12AX7WA tend to sound a little sterile due to the fact that the plates are thicker. However they make great tubes for the cathode follower slots and as a PI tube.

I know that Michael RT uses a JAN 12AX7WA in V1, but I believe it is an earlier version WA which is just an extremely tested 12AX7 hand picked for low noise and balanced triodes. The early version WA, WB and WC's are very nice.

Here is another example of what I am saying in regard to the later, military designed tubes by ECG. The JAN 6L6WGB has superior performance over a regular 6L6WGB or 5881. 



> The JAN-Philips 6L6WGB tube has the identical internal construction as the Philips 7581A tube (the industrial version of the 6L6GC tube). The difference between these two tubes is only the size of the glass bottle. Although you may not get a 7581A's 35 watts out of the 6L6WGB, you can certainly get 30 watts without any problems. These are super durable tubes made for the US military in the mid '80's. Their specs are not the same as earlier 5881 and 6L6WGB specs from the 1960's. So to get to the point, the JAN-Philips 6L6WGB tube will work perfectly in any amp requiring a 6L6GC tube. Do not worry about plate voltages over 400V with this puppy.


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dogs you probably know that Philips bought Sylvania and the new company name was Electronic Communications Group, ECG.
> 
> Sylvania was the last American tube manufacturer and therefore had a monopoly on government/military contracts. Because of this, Sylvania redesigned their tubes to make them exceed Mil-Spec requirements. The ECG tubes are these new, more rugged Sylvania designs.
> 
> If you look up a 5814A, there are many data sheets available. However, these reflect older versions of the tubes. The ECG/Sylvania's have stouter ratings than a run of the mill 5814A.
> 
> Late production Sylvania/ECG tubes such as a JAN 12AX7WA tend to sound a little sterile due to the fact that the plates are thicker. However they make great tubes for the cathode follower slots and as a PI tube.
> 
> I know that Michael RT uses a JAN 12AX7WA in V1, but I believe it is an earlier version WA which is just an extremely tested 12AX7 hand picked for low noise and balanced triodes. The early version WA, WB and WC's are very nice.
> 
> Here is another example of what I am saying in regard to the later, military designed tubes by ECG. The JAN 6L6WGB has superior performance over a regular 6L6WGB or 5881.



I have a matched pair of those JAN 6L6WGB's in my RI '59 Tweed Bassman they sound totally awesome. I also have a 5U4GB in there for more Sag Those things were designed to survive inside of an ICBM so getting pounded by 4 Cranked Jensen Alnico Speakers doesn't bother them at all


----------



## MartyStrat54

There was a guy from Canada on EBAY selling JAN WGB's dirt cheap. I bought a couple of matched quads and tried them out. They were very closely matched (2mA) and sounded very tight in the bass.

I sent a quad to my nephew for his Mesa Lonestar and he loves them. He told me they were a big improvement over the JJ's he was using.


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> There was a guy from Canada on EBAY selling JAN WGB's dirt cheap. I bought a couple of matched quads and tried them out. They were very closely matched (2mA) and sounded very tight in the bass.
> 
> I sent a quad to my nephew for his Mesa Lonestar and he loves them. He told me they were a big improvement over the JJ's he was using.



I had a pair of GE 7581A in there before I put in the WGBs of course I had to run them a bit cold and they rattled like a Race Hemi running 87 Regular Unleaded, the WGBs don't rattle at all


----------



## MartyStrat54

Hmm? The JAN WGB has the exact same internals as the 7581A. The WGB is rated at 30 watts and the 7581 is rated at 35 watts.

I never heard one that rattled. Interesting.


----------



## mickeydg5

Where is a 6L6WGB rated at 30W?
I have always seen 26W on the data sheet.

Add
I do not doubt that they can withstand more but I would suppose higher rated tubes can as well.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Posted this already just a day ago. I found this when I was trying to find out if a JANWGB would be a sub for a 6L6GC.

From the Tube Store website.



> the JAN-Philips 6L6WGB tube has the identical internal construction as the Philips 7581A tube (the industrial version of the 6L6GC tube). The difference between these two tubes is only the size of the glass bottle. Although you may not get a 7581A's 35 watts out of the 6L6WGB, you can certainly get 30 watts without any problems. These are super durable tubes made for the US military in the mid '80's. Their specs are not the same as earlier 5881 and 6L6WGB specs from the 1960's. So to get to the point, the JAN-Philips 6L6WGB tube will work perfectly in any amp requiring a 6L6GC tube. Do not worry about plate voltages over 400V with this puppy.



Not that I believe everything on the Internet.

I haven't been able to find any data sheets for these ECG JAN tubes.

If you find any let me know.


----------



## mickeydg5

I have never seen or noticed an ECG characteristics book or data sheet, that I can recall.

I understand that some 6L6WGB, 6L6GC and 7581 variants look the same. That does not mean they are. Maybe Sylvania and Philips did substitute GC's in place of WGB's.

If the TubeStore merely stated their opinion. For safety I would treat a WGB as a WGB and not as a GC. Although I do agree that they are much tougher than their specifications state. 6L6WGB and 5881 have been used and seen in amplifiers with voltages above 450 and reaching towards 500.
Also to mention is that a data sheet expresses the minimum requirement for averages to be met. I would suppose they may be exceeded.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> Dogs you probably know...


Thanks for the info. I'll check into it, looks like the quick place to get it is tubestore @ $20 +/-...

(edit) How do these compare?

http://www.dougstubes.com/nos-12az7.html

I remember Alan telling me about these. I think he had one or 2, but I never bought it...


----------



## RiverRatt

Basically a 12AT7. I don't remember the exact difference but it ain't much. I suspected that the ones I had were just relabeled 12AT7's. I believe I found a dozen or so of them in some piece of TV test equipment.


----------



## RiverRatt

Also, I don't know about the JVM-1 but I did find out that the JMP-1 can handle just about anything as an output tube (or tubes) from a 12AU7 to a 12AT7, including the BH7.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> Also, I don't know about the JVM-1 but I did find out that the JMP-1 can handle just about anything as an output tube (or tubes) from a 12AU7 to a 12AT7, including the BH7.


Makes me wonder...

The 1st 3 amps, have a more raw output section, as stated by Santiago. The DSL/JVM have an attenuator/regulator:



> let's start with the 1W amps.
> 
> The first three, JTM1 / JPM1 / JCM1, have an internal load and a series resistor with the speaker to attenuate the power. That means that when you plug them into a line input you will see a rather high voltage as the external load impedance it is quite high. Theoretically you will put approx 6V peak into whatever you connect them if you use the 16ohm output, approx 4Vpeak if you use the 8ohm output. That's more than enough to overdrive 9V powered stompboxes and some FX return in amplifiers even in the +4dB setting.
> 
> The DSL1 and JVM1 use an L-attenuator that serves both as load and output voltage attenuator so those will deliver an output voltage that is much more independent of the input impedance of whatever you connect them to, being the voltage more or less constant an approx 1.8V peak. This is the reason why the DSL1 and JVM1 use a combined single output speaker and don't need to be switched into 0.1W to operate safely without load.


I wonder how "equal" the trannies are (in all the 1 watters), or, if the differences are all in filtering. & how much the filtering affects what goes into/through the tube?

I have stated before, that a 12AX7 will not work in the power section of the JVM1. It sounds like when the wav form clips, it cuts out so you get a cycle of clip/cut constantly while playing & sounds like shit.


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Hmm? The JAN WGB has the exact same internals as the 7581A. The WGB is rated at 30 watts and the 7581 is rated at 35 watts.
> 
> I never heard one that rattled. Interesting.



The power tubes and rectifier in a tweed bassman hang upside down right in back of one of the speakers so they are subjected to lots of vibration !!!


----------



## yladrd61

MartyStrat54 said:


> Posted this already just a day ago. I found this when I was trying to find out if a JANWGB would be a sub for a 6L6GC.
> 
> From the Tube Store website.
> 
> 
> 
> Not that I believe everything on the Internet.
> 
> I haven't been able to find any data sheets for these ECG JAN tubes.
> 
> If you find any let me know.



This should probably be in the power tube thread  I read that paragraph also when I was researching the 6L6WGB, I couldn't find anything official so I treated them as a 26 Watt tube. The only Data Sheet I could find was an old Tung Sol 6L6GB.... I did choose the 6L6WGB over the RI Tung Sol 5881 as the B+ in the RI Bassman is right around 440V with a 5U4GB .... I highly recommend the JAN 6L6WGB for anyone with the RI Bassman !!!!


----------



## Dogs of Doom

yladrd61 said:


> This should probably be in the power tube thread


both threads have gone on some sideroads. Even, I'm talking about using pre-amp tubes as power tubes... 

'..


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well it's no big deal. There have been many instances of the comments going off topic in this thread. When you talk about preamp tubes sometimes you have to bring up power tubes.

Let's not forget about that now defunct rectifier tube thread. (Not a very deep subject.)


----------



## dreyn77

Does anyone know with preamp valves which Pins linkup? 
there is the nunbers 123456789. 
The preamp tubes are Ecc83. 

I'd like to know where Pin 2 goes to and where Pin 7 goes to. 

On the 1959RR amp Input 2 goes to pin 2 and input 1 goes to pin 7.
Cheers!


----------



## mickeydg5




----------



## dreyn77

Thanks Mickeydg5 that diagram is very helpful.


----------



## gameshound

Hey guys!!
Hope all is well!!!

What's with all this second page stuff??
No way in hell you guys can be tired of talking about tubes!!

NOT GONNA HAPPEN!!!

I am looking to wheel and deal... Got a lot of stuff for sale right now... Pm with any tubes you might be looking for and let's see if there's a deal to be made

I have Phillips 12ax7/7025... Canadian and European
Raytheon
G.E
Sylvania
Marconi
Matsushita

And lots and lots of other tubes as will

I would even be willing to part with some of my long plate stuff

TESTED AND GUARANTEED!

I will posting some classifieds as well so check them out!!

FOR THE REST OF OCTOBER I WILL DO HALF PRICE ON SHIPPING!

Looking forward to hearing from you

Gameshound


----------



## Dogs of Doom

New score....






I'm really digging the 12BH7a tube in the PI of my JVM1h. I picked these up off the bay. I'm going to throw one in a little later & then swap them, just to make sure they both work ok...


----------



## MartyStrat54

Mickey, what are your thoughts of a 12BH7 being used as a PI tube? Any advantages or disadvantages?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

The JVM is spec'd w/ ECC82 in the PI/power slot. Ampeg uses the 12BH7 in the PI of the SVT (that's where I got my tube that was posted on the other page (Philips/ECG). I just wanted more, so that I could try out a few different & make sure I have something for when I get my SVT amps going again...

IMO, the sound is a lot fatter. Makes the amp sound less like a 1 watter & more like a 50 watter. In the power section, I dropped it in & it really made it sound moreso like a big amp, but it lost it's JVM voice. Sounded more like a '80s hotrodded JCM 800...


----------



## mickeydg5

The 12BH7 as compared to the 12AU7 can pass more current and handle more wattage. They suck twice the heater current though.
The PI with a 12BH7 should be bit cleaner but will overdrive, in a robust way, the power tube more.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

It does seem to have a little bit more headroom, but it still drives well...


----------



## Jubilee25Fifty

Hopefully an easy question - how special are the original preamp tubes from the Silver Jubilee? Anything particularly valuable or awesome sounding? Thanks.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Well, they are later, of what would be considered old stock, just before the downfall of tube mfgr'ing...

Are they Marshall branded? They should have a # code on them. Let us know what they have...


----------



## Jubilee25Fifty

Dogs of Doom said:


> Well, they are later, of what would be considered old stock, just before the downfall of tube mfgr'ing...
> 
> Are they Marshall branded? They should have a # code on them. Let us know what they have...



Thanks for the reply! The first tube is exactly the same as the one pictured at http://www.marshallforum.com/marshall-amps/4022-ecc83y-can-anyone-identify-tube.html. The other two have a slightly smaller font in red and with no "Y" as that pictured. No other visible marks from what I recall (or can get to right now).


----------



## mickeydg5

Those are "smooth" plate ECC83 from Ei, Yugoslavia.

Some people really like them and even use them in V1. Some consider them ok or good. It may depend on the tube itself, its character and strength, not unlike other brands. If I remember correctly as long as you have a nice one it will last and sound well but a not so nice one will have problems like noise and microphonia. 

I believe they usually average between $15 to $25 each. Stores are higher priced.




Yes, I made up that word microphonia.


----------



## Jubilee25Fifty

mickeydg5 said:


> Those are "smooth" plate ECC83 from Ei, Yugoslavia.
> 
> Some people really like them and even use them in V1. Some consider them ok or good. It may depend on the tube itself, its character and strength, not unlike other brands. If I remember correctly as long as you have a nice one it will last and sound well but a not so nice one will have problems like noise and microphonia.
> 
> I believe they usually average between $15 to $25 each. Stores are higher priced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I made up that word microphonia.



Hi, 

Thanks so much for the reply. Attached is a picture of the tubes if further helpful. Your help renders most of this moot, but still would appreciate thoughts on the red-lettered tube (which I guess was in V1). 

Frankly, thought the amp sounded much more vibrant and also gainier with new tubes (Mesa, which I understand are just run-of-the-mill Chinese 12ax7). I'm selling an old Mesa and the buyer doesn't care about what tubes are in it at all - I just want to make sure I'm not making a mistake by including the pictured tubes rather than the new Mesas. Thanks again!


----------



## mickeydg5

Well the tubes are not special so do not fret. It seems from your description that they are worn or unbalanced with some strength on the low side. You would not know exactly unless they were tested.
Keep the ones you like best.

The red print is or was kind of standard marking on tubes used by Marshall and does appear to be Chinese.


----------



## Jubilee25Fifty

mickeydg5 said:


> Well the tubes are not special so do not fret. It seems from your description that they are worn or unbalanced with some strength on the low side. You would not know exactly unless they were tested.
> Keep the ones you like best.
> 
> The red print is or was kind of standard marking on tubes used by Marshall and does appear to be Chinese.



Awesome, really appreciate the help!


----------



## Jaymz E

Has anybody here tried those Jet City analog 12AX7 tube subs? Will they work in other amps? Do they sound like 12AX7s or are they SS snake oil?


----------



## RiverRatt

I haven't tried them but I'd vote for snake oil. There have been several unsuccessful attempts at making a solid-state tube replacement. I think they ultimately failed because of the absurdity of paying money to turn a $2,000 tube amp into a $300 solid-state amp. If Jet City knew how to design a circuit that sounds and overdrives like a 12AX7, why do they only make tube amps?


----------



## Jaymz E

RiverRatt said:


> I haven't tried them but I'd vote for snake oil. There have been several unsuccessful attempts at making a solid-state tube replacement. I think they ultimately failed because of the absurdity of paying money to turn a $2,000 tube amp into a $300 solid-state amp. If Jet City knew how to design a circuit that sounds and overdrives like a 12AX7, why do they only make tube amps?




Good point RR. I kinda figured they are Snake oil. I'll just stick with CP 12ax7s until I get the extra cash to purchase some NOS treasures. In your opinion what is the most reliable and longest lasting modern 12ax7?


----------



## RiverRatt

I like the Chinese stuff better than any of the Russian tubes but some people think they are fizzy. I picked up a Bogner Alchemist a few weeks ago and it came with all EH 12AX7A's and they really sounded dull and lifeless IMO. I got one of the Shuguang/Ruby 12AX7AC5 HG+ tubes with it though and it's a keeper. For some reason they were using it as the FX loop driver?!?! 

I think reliability and long-life is hit-or-miss with just about any CP tubes. Just cross your fingers and keep a few spares on-hand.


----------



## MartyStrat54

As RR said why would you want to introduce SS circuitry in an all tube amp? Tubes are what the magic is all about. It is why tube amps are still being made 50 years after SS was introduced. Tube overdrive is sweet and fat and SS overdrive will not match that.


----------



## freeknout

Wondering if I can employ the experts to determine if I have some genuine Mullard I61 tubes or not. I have some I63's and other I61's but these pair that I bought have different pin construction from what I can tell. The date codes look to be legit but wondering if there is a reference for the actual pins and the connections to the bottom plate/mica that would help validate my purchase.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

pictures?


----------



## freeknout

Sorry about that. These are what I have so far. I will post more later tonight.


----------



## GIBSON67

Looks like copper rods and the date codes look good...those look like my I61's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Looks good to me.

You can scroll down to about the middle of the page for Mullard code information.

Tube Classics - Philips Audio Tubes


----------



## freeknout

Thanks for the confirmation guys!


----------



## gameshound

Hey guys 

Just got my hands on a large batch of mullard I61's

When they are tested and ready for sale I will post to let you know!!

Thanks

Gameshound


----------



## chiliphil1

Hey guys, I was pointed to this thread by another member because I posted some questions about retubing my dsl100.. 

I am looking for a tighter more punishing sound, not death metal but somehwere in the megadethtalica arena.. Anyway I saw someone reccomend to replace the tubes as follows. 

v1 tung-sol 12ax7
v2 tung-sol 12ax7
v3 sino 12ax7
v4 Electro harmonix 12ax7
v5-v8 jj e34l 

I was going to order those but I saw that jet city is making an analog tube replacement and they offer a high gain version of it and I was wondering if anyone had used them or if you guys think they would be worth bothering with.. I am on sort of a budget so I can't do something like NOS or even winged c's would be a bit much, the total of all the tubes mentioned above is about $120 and I will install them myself.. 

I like the telefunkin but they are a bit pricey too going with a full set of them.. So, in summary what about the jet city things? Is the combo listed above good? Would you recommend something different?

Edit: nevermind, just read above about the jet city things, so disregard that part


----------



## MartyStrat54

Don't go with that list of tubes. You can do much better.

V1-TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) 7025WA (About $18.)
V2-Mullard RI (About $19.)
V3-JJ ECC83 (About $10.)
V4-TAD 7025 Highgrade (About $20.)

Power tubes-TAD EL34B-STR (About $100 for a matched quad.)

I recommend these tubes based on performance and value.

All of these tubes can be bought at Mojotone.


----------



## chiliphil1

MartyStrat54 said:


> Don't go with that list of tubes. You can do much better.
> 
> V1-TAD (Tube Amp Doctor) 7025WA (About $18.)
> V2-Mullard RI (About $19.)
> V3-JJ ECC83 (About $10.)
> V4-TAD 7025 Highgrade (About $20.)
> 
> Power tubes-TAD EL34B-STR (About $100 for a matched quad.)
> 
> I recommend these tubes based on performance and value.
> 
> All of these tubes can be bought at Mojotone.



Awesome. I will look into those. Thank you.


----------



## klaatutooyou

.


----------



## Metroman

These tubes have a 3 Character Mullard BOI code.

Are these Blackburn 1960 Sept ? These are ribbed short plate.

Is these an I61 ???


----------



## RiverRatt

The date code is right. The type code (I61, I63, etc.) should be printed just above the date code.


----------



## Jaymz E

I got some new CP 12AX7s for Christmas 4 Sovtek 12AX7LPS, 2 nos Winged =C= EF86s and 4 Shuguang 12AX7Bs. I got the 4 12AX7Bs for $6.00 each and they seem to work good in my amp and test good on my B&K tester. I like the the Sovtek LPS for the PI slot in my DR Z. I'm going to get a few TAD 12AX7s to try next.


----------



## Mr New Heart

Hi All. I've been reading the back pages and figured I jump ahead and post. I'm way back at page 270. lol. I have gathered a dozen or so tubes and info along the way. Oh yeah I know now that once you start rollin tubes you can't stop.

TSL100 - running 2 power tubes GT-EL34-M -1(grit)
(like them more than the Svetlanas that came with it used)
1936 cab with GreenBacks
I play clean and blues and 1/2 way raw. But can still get metal if I need it. 

Here is my starter pack so far and still have more rolling to do:

RCA 7025 Gray Plate Top O Getter 40/42
RCA/Motorola Long Black Plates Slant D Getter 42/44
RCA/Motorola Long Black Plates Slant D Getter 42/42
1957 GE JG-5751 3 Mica Black Plate D Getter 128/128
GE Long Gray Plate O Getter 108/110
GE Long Gray Plate O Getter 102/99
1960 Raytheon USA Long Black Plate Slant O Getter 52/48
1962 Raytheon JRP Long Grey Plate O Getter 46/46
1961 Telefunken
1959 Telefunken <> Ribbed Plates O Getter 98/99
IE/Telefunken Smoothe
IE/Telefunken Smoothe
Sylvania Long Grey Plate O Getter 108/99
Sylvania Long Gray Plate O Getter 122/128
1964 Sylvania Long Grey Plates O Getter 3800/4000
Genalex Gold Lion ECC83 standard china 110/110 (CP)
Mullard CV4004/12AX7 110/110 (CP)

But I have settle on these for now:
V1 - 1959 Telefunken <> Ribbed Plates O Getter 98/99
V2 - RCA/Motorola Long Black Plates Slant D Getter 42/44
V3 - 1962 Raytheon JRP Long Grey Plate O Getter 46/46
V4 - Sylvania Long Grey Plate O Getter 108/99

The 1959 Tele in V1 is very musical, harmonical, great highs lows mids, love it and this dictated my priority in rolling the rest of my tubes.
The other teles where close and very likable.
The GE's & the Mullard would not sound good anywhere. (i was surprised)
Tried the Raytheon BP in V2-V3-V4 seemed overkill for how I play and also worked against the musical qualities of my V1 Tele, and others did as well. The Gold lion seemed sterile/harsh. The RCA in V2 seemed like a good middle of the road tube and did not bother my V1 Tele. V3 and V4 effected my tone very very very slightly almost nil. But the 62 Raytheon JRP Grey in V3 and the Sylvania in V4 keeps my 59 Tele in the sweet spot.

Thanx to all that posted info in this thread.
My Marshall sounds Great!


----------



## Jaymz E

I need to get me a couple of Old Mullard Ecc83s. Most of my Tube stash is current production.


----------



## RiverRatt

Mr New Heart said:


> The 1959 Tele in V1 is very musical, harmonical, great highs lows mids, love it and this dictated my priority in rolling the rest of my tubes.
> The other teles where close and very likable.
> The GE's & the Mullard would not sound good anywhere. (i was surprised)
> Tried the Raytheon BP in V2-V3-V4 seemed overkill for how I play and also worked against the musical qualities of my V1 Tele, and others did as well. The Gold lion seemed sterile/harsh. The RCA in V2 seemed like a good middle of the road tube and did not bother my V1 Tele. V3 and V4 effected my tone very very very slightly almost nil. But the 62 Raytheon JRP Grey in V3 and the Sylvania in V4 keeps my 59 Tele in the sweet spot.
> 
> Thanx to all that posted info in this thread.
> My Marshall sounds Great!
> 
> View attachment 21067



Sounds like a great collection! 

The V1 Tele is a brighter tube and that may be why you aren't liking anything bright in V2. The RCA is kind of flat and dark sounding so that may be a good match-up. Sounds like you are well on your way to finding what works for you. 

I'm kind of surprised that the Mullard didn't sound good anywhere. Normally a Mullard in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 is a killer combination. Of course you can find a dud from just about anybody. I had a Mullard that was like that.

Have you tried a really strong tube in V4? Everybody's ears are different, but I always thought a hot phase inverter tube really opened up the amp and just made everything sound better.

Keep us posted on your findings and welcome to our addiction.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a great tube on eBay... notice anything missing? This jewel can be yours for $32 plus $8 shipping.

*1-Vintage -1954-RAYTHEON-12AX7 --{}-getter-Very Rare tube - Strong !!!!*


----------



## Mr New Heart

Thanks RiverRatt..

Before the Tele.. I was running the
V1 - RCA 7025
Various combinations V2-V3-V4
RCA/Motorola
Raytheon BP
Mullard

So actually the Mullard did sound good at one point with other
combinations. Lots of options to try for sure.

Maybe an option to try is have V2-3-4 as neutral as possible
and then shoot for that magic V1. Once you find 'your V1' then, work V2-3-4 to your liking.

I'll keep you all posted in my tubular findings.


----------



## Mr New Heart

RiverRatt said:


> I found a great tube on eBay... notice anything missing? This jewel can be yours for $32 plus $8 shipping.
> 
> *1-Vintage -1954-RAYTHEON-12AX7 --{}-getter-Very Rare tube - Strong !!!!*



No Flashing? No Supports? Almost looks like a 1/2 fake tube.


----------



## Jaymz E

I've never seen a 12AX7 with a clear top and a getter made like that. I bet it is a killer tube. I have a used Raytheon 12AX7 and it is way better than my CP tubes and it has Black Plates. How do the grey plates compare to the black plates? I haven't tried a Raytheon Grey plate yet.


----------



## RiverRatt

No, it looks like a JRP-12AX7 should, except for the crack running through the tip. I'd like to message the seller and find out what tester he used to get the "strong" reading. I have a rare white-top Tungsram that I'd like to have him test for me.


----------



## RiverRatt

jayms, JRP Raytheons are hot tubes with a lot of sizzle (not the clear top ones!!!) and can sound really nice if you're going for a Billy Gibbons kind of tone. I ran one in V1 and V2 of my DSL50 and had a blast with the whole pinch harmonic thing, but IMO they don't clean up well. Most likely any other production Raytheon gray plate will be a MIJ tube or even Taiwanese and nothing like a USA black plate. The JRP-12AX7 will always have orange print BTW.


----------



## mickeydg5

So where is its white powder?
Did the owner vacuum it out?

I found this.


----------



## Jaymz E

RiverRatt said:


> No, it looks like a JRP-12AX7 should, except for the crack running through the tip. I'd like to message the seller and find out what tester he used to get the "strong" reading. I have a rare white-top Tungsram that I'd like to have him test for me.



Good Eye RR I didn't even notice the crack. The old Ray that I have isn't clear. I have two super rare modern Sovtek 12AX7s that have the white tops and were made buy Putin himself, but they are collectors items and not to be used in guitar amps. lol


----------



## spinal

Hello guies,

I have a 1970 Marshall Super Bass.

I'm not happy with the distorted tone I get: low end is muddy and it is lacking definition overall.

My current tubes configuration is:
- V1 and V2: Tung-Sol 12AX7 Reissue V1 ( Tung-Sol 12AX7 / ECC83 Reissue V1 - Tube-Town GmbH )
- V3: Tung-Sol 12AX7 Reissue BALANCED ( http://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Tubes/Tung-Sol/Tung-Sol-12AX7-ECC83-Reissue-BALANCED::1696.html )
- a matched quad of EL34 SED WINGED C

Is it the expected amp sound or I can improve it by changing some tubes?

Thanks


----------



## RiverRatt

IMO the =C='s should be all about crunchy mids. They are usually a tight-sounding tube. Have the electrolytic caps ever been changed out?

I've not been a fan of Tung-Sol reissues in a Marshall. You might find that a Shuguang brightens up the tone.


----------



## spinal

RiverRatt said:


> IMO the =C='s should be all about crunchy mids. They are usually a tight-sounding tube. Have the electrolytic caps ever been changed out?
> 
> I've not been a fan of Tung-Sol reissues in a Marshall. You might find that a Shuguang brightens up the tone.



Thanks for the answer!

Yes, Electrolytic caps have been changed for new ones.
In fact I like the sound when gain doesn't go over 60% then it starts to lack definitions and I don't like it.

Do you have a list of let's say 3 v1 tubes, I can buy to start swapping and listening?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not a big fan of CP tubes and Marty just answered this a few pages back. I like Shuguang tubes but it's all opinion and personal taste. I have a 12AX7AC5 HG+ that I like and the older ones with the square getter sound good. There are a few newer tubes that have come out recently that I haven't tried or really even heard anything about. That's why I suggested going back a few pages.

If you want to go NOS, I like Tungsrams, Telefunkens with ribbed plates, and Mullard mC1 or I61s.


----------



## Riffraff

I recently replaced the dieing, noisy power tubes in my Delta Blues 115 and decided to do some preamp tube swapping. I was pretty amazed how much of an impact tube changes made in this amp. It to really responds to pramp tube changes. I've had me share of amps where you can hardly tell the difference but this one made tube swapping a lot of fun. My main goal was to loose the fizz in the dirt channel from the CP tubes. I wanted a crisp, glassy clean tone and wanted the dirty channel to maintain the same tone but just be a cranked version of the same nice touch sensitivity and musical feed back. My test guitars were is a stock single pole loaded MIM Tele and and a Burst Bucker Pro loaded LP Standard. I ran straight to the amp in keep it simple fashion. I didn't want to go through them all because that would be tough on the sockets and a PITA so I stopped when I found "the tube" in the various positions.

The tubes I had to work with:

*V1*

*VINTAGE*
RCA12AX7 long black plate D getter (tried, outstanding in V1) A++
RCA 12AX7A long gray plate
RCA 12AX7 short gray plate (tried, very good in V1)
RCA Baldwin labeled 12AX7 short black plate
Ratheon 12AX7 long black plate
GE 5751 (tried, good in V1)
GE 6072/12AY7
*
MODERN*
JJ ECC803S gold pin (tried, didn't like it in this position)
JJ ECC83 (tried, okay in this position)
Shuguan National labeled 5751 (tried, too bright in V1)
EHX 12AX7
Sovtek 12AX7LPS


*V2*
*
VINTAGE*
Mullard I63 Philips labeled 7025 (tried, awesome in V2)
Mullard I63 IEC lalbel 12AX7/ECC83
Mullard I63 Hammond labeled 12AX7 (tried, good in V2)
Sylvania various 12AX7, 12AX7A & 7025 tubes (tried many, green label, yellow label, short plate, long plate...all good in V2)
GE 5 star 12AX7
GE 5751 (tried, very good in V2 but midrangy, needed EQ adjustments that interfered with channel 1)
RCA12AX7 long black plate
RCA 12AX7A long gray plate
RCA 12AX7 short gray plate (tried, outstanding in V2) A++
RCA Baldwin labeled 12AX7 short black plate
Tung-Sol 12AX7
Ratheon 12AX7 long black plate
*
MODERN*
TAD high grade 12AX7/7025
Sovtek 12AX7WA
Sovtek 12AX7WB
EHX 12AX7
Shuguan National labeled 5751 (tried, too bright in V2)

*V3*

*VINTAGE*
Sylvania Baldwin labeled 12AX7 long gray plate (tried very good in V3)
GE 12AX7 long plate, D getter (tried, outstanding in V3) A++
Mullard Amperex Bugle Boy labeled 12AT7 (tried, very good in V3)

*MODERN*
JJ ECC83 (tried and good in V3)
TAD high grade 12AX7/7025
JJ ECC803S gold pin
Shuguan National labeled 5751 (tried, meh in V3)

THE WINNERS





The RCA in V1 has a D getter as does the GE in V3. My DB115 has never sounded better. The JJ's I had in the DB115 before sounded pretty good but like total crap compared to these. 

GETTERS


----------



## RiverRatt

Sounds cool... I've always wanted to try a Delta Blues but never got around to doing it. That's a fender-y tube lineup you ended up with too. Do you still have any of those National 5751's? PM me and we might work out a swap.

What's the Masco turntable in your signature? I had an old Bogen that looked a lot like it that had a pair of 5881's and octal pre's.


----------



## Riffraff

It is a bit that way and was more or less what I was going for. 

The Masco is a '47 MA25P.
25 watts, loctal preamp tubes (2) 7B4, 7F7 & 7N7. It's a dual 6L6 amp. I've got a pair of RCA 6L6GC black plates in it. 5U4G rectified.

Really nice glassy clean tone with a single pole loaded guitar and all Tweed attitude when you get the volume up around 11 o'clock.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2V_yZaAYSU[/ame]

PM on the way regarding the 5751's.


----------



## Riffraff

It's funny how I sometimes read something that alerts me to stuff that I have in my stash that I discounted as crap decades ago and never even tried. I was reading a write up on the Amp Garage about preamp tubes and the author had included a write up on the 8_*0‘s/90‘s Beijing Chinese Military Square Getter Triple-Mica 12AX7 *_. He went into some detail about them and said "_these older production tubes sound nothing like the newer mass-produced Chinese Shuguang 12AX7s, which can have a very harsh and unmusical tone_". These are the famed early '90s tubes Marshall and Mesa used that a lot of guys like. Anyway, I got a new piece of gear back in the early '90s that had this tube in it which I promptly ripped out and replaced. It's been sitting in my tube bin since.

Don't ask about the printing. It' actually normal on the tube. 
Photobucket is just being a bitch today and kept flipping the pictures when I uploaded them 
so I loaded them upside down so they would flip right side up and this was the result.








Now I had also acquired 40 NIB National branded 5751 tubes a year and a half or so ago from a customer of mine. I think I actually posted about them in this thread somewhere. They were part of a 50 pc buy they did in '93. I had a few of them tested on a high end computerized tester and the guy I sent them to told me that the test results indicated that there were 12AX7's and that they were likely just labeled as 5751's. I sold off most of that lot to Doug's Tubes and traded some with dudes on forums. Hell, I even sent a few to some of you guys. (RiverRatt, I've still got the one I promised you the other day if you want it) I had tried those in a few of my amps and didn't really like them in the amps I tested them in so I didn't really care to hold onto many but kept a few for utility use. Anyway, I was just comparing one of those with this Beijing tube and I'll be damned if it isn't identical in every way. 









Anywho...I'm gonna roll some NOS Beijing in my 6505+ today to see if they are better in high gain amps.


********* UPDATE **********

Pulled this mule out of V1





I had recently swapped this one in V2...





...with a GE 5751





I stuck in the Chinese glass and at first I thought, not much difference....why waste the mules, I'll leave these in. Then I cranked it. 

   

HOLY SMOKES!!! Now I know why guys love these in high gain amps.


----------



## mickeydg5

If those China 5751 are truly that then they should average lower gain/volume as compared to 12AX7.
It will be interesting to read your findings.


----------



## Riffraff

The 12AX7A version has slightly more gain than the 5751, not a lot...just a bit. The voice is the same and the volume is the same too. I've got the 5751 in V1 and the 12AX7A in V2. Here is a side by side shot:









They sound great in my 6505+. I tried a brand new TAD high grade 7025 to compare a better grade Shuguan against the 5751 and the TAD sounded anemic by comparison. And to think I had 40 of these and let almost all of them go. Oh well. I didn't have an amp they got along with at the time. I may have to go back and get a few more after all.


----------



## RiverRatt

The ones you sent me tested above 100% on my TV-7 and they sounded and behaved like a high gain 12AX7. I've heard for quite awhile that the old square-getter Chinese tubes were good and I liked those you sent, but like all my 12AX7's they kinda dribbled away over time. 

I have one of the 12AX7AC5 HG+ tubes and it seems to have a little more bark at lower gain settings. I think the ones I got from you got sold with gainy amps because they really sounded good in them. They don't go fizzy like a lot of the Russian tubes.


----------



## Riffraff

Well this amp is all about gain so they work well in it. Pretty much everything else I have is medium to low gain and I prefer vintage glass in those.


----------



## Riffraff

Clippage - Les Paul > 6505+ with Digitech DL8 delay set to looper & Hall of Fame in the EFX loop > Carvin Legacy 212

This was done at low volume and recorded with a cell phone about 8 inches from the cab. It's a beast when cranked. I'll put up a clip of that when I get a chance to mic it up right and shake the house off of it's foundation. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa837y2n7VI[/ame]


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Just want to confirm/reject...

This is a Black Plate Raytheon, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

Nope. The Raytheon will have shiny plates. I'm pretty sure what you have is a Tung-Sol 12AU7.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is a Raytheon. Note the straight sides on the plates.


----------



## Dannyz

Did anyone tried the CP Svetlana 12ax7? Ive heard really good things, that it sounds like the CP Tungsol without too much "grain" with a perfect balance in tone, with a bit more gain that CP Mullard 12ax7 cv4004.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Ok, one thing I noticed, when I got it in better light, it was grey plate. This is one of those ones I got from you in the grab bag of ECC82s...


----------



## RiverRatt

Hahaha! You don't know how close I've come to trashing my entire collection of ambiguous 12AU7s. They ALWAYS show up in some weird place and I ALWAYS get that little rush from thinking I've found a 12AX7 I'd misplaced.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

well, they'll always be worth something to someone...

I'm seeing a lot of tubes w/ the octagonal tube type label. Isn't that RCA?


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, they are worth keeping, I just wish they didn't look so much like 12AX7s. It would have been nice if they'd have etched the tube numbers instead of using paint that sometimes flaked off in the box before the tube was even used.

I know that RCA and Tung-Sol used the octagon on their preamp tubes, and I've seen a few others as well. Sometimes with Tung-Sol there's a short vertical line at the top of the octagon.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

It's time for a re-tube for me (pre amp tubes). I'm thinking of just buying the same tubes I have in there now, which are a Raytheon Black Plate in V1 and two Tung Sol CP's in V2 and V3.

I'll be putting these in a 2500 MKIII and I play punk rock (Ramones, Pistols, Lagwagon, Bad Religion...etc). Anyone have any different opinions? Suggestions? I'm all ears...

Thanks.


----------



## GIBSON67

Have they gone bad, or are you hearing noises, crakling etc??? Most Preamp Valves last a long, long time!


----------



## LPMarshall hack

GIBSON67 said:


> Have they gone bad, or are you hearing noises, crakling etc??? Most Preamp Valves last a long, long time!



I think V1 might be starting to go. I started a thread about it, but sometimes when I power up (about 20% of the time) I have no gain at all...just a clean sound. I tapped the tubes with a pencil and V1 may be a little microphonic...the "ping" comes thru the speakers. The other tubes don't make this noise. I've had these in about 5 years and I gig a bit.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

What about putting CP Mullard 12AX7's in all three spots? Anyone have any opinions, good or bad, on the CP Mullard pre amp tubes? Seem to be about the same price as the Tung Sols...


----------



## gameshound

Hey guys

Check out my add in the classifieds
Very partial list of what I have for sale

Much more coming

http://www.marshallforum.com/member...x7-beautiful-tone-tubes-sale.html#post1291559


----------



## LPMarshall hack

gameshound said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Check out my add in the classifieds
> Very partial list of what I have for sale
> 
> Much more coming
> 
> http://www.marshallforum.com/member...x7-beautiful-tone-tubes-sale.html#post1291559



Thanks for that!


----------



## LPMarshall hack

I just ordered a TAD 7025WA and two Tung Sols for my amp. I'll let ya'll know how they sound when I put em in.


----------



## RiverRatt

LPMarshall hack said:


> I think V1 might be starting to go. I started a thread about it, but sometimes when I power up (about 20% of the time) I have no gain at all...just a clean sound. I tapped the tubes with a pencil and V1 may be a little microphonic...the "ping" comes thru the speakers. The other tubes don't make this noise. I've had these in about 5 years and I gig a bit.



Try cleaning the pins and sockets before you give up on your current set. An intermittent problem like that is most likely not a bad tube. Also, most tubes are a little microphonic. If it's not ringing when you tap it, it's probably OK. Substitute another tube for it and see if you notice a big difference in tone. If all else fails, send them to me and I'll dispose of them for you.


----------



## RickyLee

I stuck an old GE 12AX7 that had "GREAT BRITAIN" and two seams on the top of the glass into my 6100LM last night. 

I thought it was just a Mullard as the plates looked the same as my I61 ECC83. BUT, this one has two ribs on the plates where the I61 has three ribs.

Anyone familiar with this two ribbed plates?

EDIT: Here is a link to a pic on what I meant by "ribs". I was calling the raised part rib where this one has three of the thin raised areas - yet they call it two ribs. So I guess I need to say that the I61 has two ribs and my old GE Britain tube in question has one rib. Confusing.



http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/ebay/Single Rib Japanese plates.jpg


----------



## LPMarshall hack

RiverRatt said:


> Try cleaning the pins and sockets before you give up on your current set. An intermittent problem like that is most likely not a bad tube. Also, most tubes are a little microphonic. If it's not ringing when you tap it, it's probably OK. Substitute another tube for it and see if you notice a big difference in tone. If all else fails, send them to me and I'll dispose of them for you.



Thanks River. I figured, if anything, that having extra tubes would be a good thing. I don't want to give up on my tubes yet! The V1 is a tiny bit microphonic when I tap it. It doesn't ring for long or anything, but it does a tiny tiny bit (you can hear it thru the speakers if you listen close).

As for cleaning the sockets...is it a matter of just spraying some sort of contact cleaner into the holes? Or onto the tube pins? Do I have to worry about soaking other components?


----------



## GIBSON67

I never use any spray on the tubes or sockets...just wiggle them in and out a bunch of times. Or possibly scotchbrite pads to the pins if they look corroded. 

RickyLee - show us some pics and I am sure someone can ID them for you.


----------



## ken361

I spray the pins and then work them in a few times


----------



## LPMarshall hack

GIBSON67 said:


> I never use any spray on the tubes or sockets...just wiggle them in and out a bunch of times. Or possibly scotchbrite pads to the pins if they look corroded.





ken361 said:


> I spray the pins and then work them in a few times



So spraying the pins should be ok, just don't dump a bunch of spray into the sockets. A little contact cleaner shouldn't harm components, correct? Isn't that what it's made for?


----------



## ken361

Deoxit D5 it what I use, it helped a static noise on a new twin


----------



## GIBSON67

Yeah, don't spray the sockets!


----------



## RiverRatt

Actually I used to use Scotch Brite pads too but was told that it isn't good to use abrasives of any kind as it creates pits and scratches in the metal and lessens the area of contact. That may be BS or it may be true, but being overly paranoid I stopped doing it just to be safe.

If you're using a non-conductive, non-lubricating cleaner it should be OK to spray both the socket and the pins.


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I stuck an old GE 12AX7 that had "GREAT BRITAIN" and two seams on the top of the glass into my 6100LM last night.
> 
> I thought it was just a Mullard as the plates looked the same as my I61 ECC83. BUT, this one has two ribs on the plates where the I61 has three ribs.
> 
> Anyone familiar with this two ribbed plates?
> 
> EDIT: Here is a link to a pic on what I meant by "ribs". I was calling the raised part rib where this one has three of the thin raised areas - yet they call it two ribs. So I guess I need to say that the I61 has two ribs and my old GE Britain tube in question has one rib. Confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tubemongerlib.com/gallery2/ebay/Single Rib Japanese plates.jpg



I always thought that ribs were the ladder-like embossed parts of the plates too. Can you post a pic of the GE tube? I've seen Japanese tubes marked Great Britain and labeled RCA. If it doesn't have a type code or a Blackburn date code, that may be what's going on.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I've used and continue to use the mildest Scotch Brite to buff the pins. I just buff the pins lightly. I have never bought tubes with bad corrosion.


----------



## LPMarshall hack

River,

I PM'd you...just not sure if it went thru. Lemme know...


----------



## gameshound

Hey guys

Did anybody else see those two big mullard long plate auctions on eBay recently??
They were for the guys reject tubes.. With no guarantee at all.. And of course that makes sense.. But geez... I have a giant reject box maybe it's time to sell!!


Large LOT OF English Mullard Eico 12AX7 Vacuum Tubes | eBay


Sold for pretty big money... 

I have gambled on a lot of tube lots .. But those were a little to risky!!

What do you guys think


----------



## RickyLee

I will see if I can get some pics. Have to dig out the camera as well as set up the host site. If I can make some time for it.


----------



## JCarno

gameshound said:


> What do you guys think



Don't be surprised if some of these show up for sale here.


----------



## mickeydg5

They sold at basically $25 per tube with no guarantee they even work. 

One question, who would?


----------



## JCarno

I don't know. But I made sure I have that pic for future reference.


----------



## jeid

Hello, I have a 2007 Marshall JVM. I'm looking to replace some of the preamp tubes. I have NOS RFT's in V1 & V2 but just the stock tubes in V3-V5. I play mainly heavy rock/metal but I like a bit of versatility. I'm not sure what's good at the moment or if the RFT's are the best for the positions I have them in.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm a bit out of touch with CP tubes.

Cheers!


----------



## gameshound

gameshound said:


> Hey guys
> 
> Did anybody else see those two big mullard long plate auctions on eBay recently??
> They were for the guys reject tubes.. With no guarantee at all.. And of course that makes sense.. But geez... I have a giant reject box maybe it's time to sell!!
> 
> 
> Large LOT OF English Mullard Eico 12AX7 Vacuum Tubes | eBay
> 
> 
> Sold for pretty big money...
> 
> I have gambled on a lot of tube lots .. But those were a little to risky!!
> 
> What do you guys think




Here's another humdinger!!!
Might have to sell you car to get these puppie

2 Vintage Dynaco Mullard 12AX7 ECC83 Stereo Tubes Amplitrex Tested | eBay


----------



## RickyLee

I dug out an old West German ribbed plate ECC83. Would that be a Telefunken made? Are these decent along the caliber of a Mullard I61 or I63?


----------



## mickeydg5

Pictures?


----------



## RiverRatt

RickyLee said:


> I dug out an old West German ribbed plate ECC83. Would that be a Telefunken made? Are these decent along the caliber of a Mullard I61 or I63?



Diamond in the bottom and it's a Tele. Seams on top and it's probably a Siemens & Halske. Should be a great tube either way.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Diamond in the bottom and it's a Tele. Seams on top and it's probably a Siemens & Halske. Should be a great tube either way.



Has a diamond on bottom with "23". Took some pics on my phone but have not figured out how to get them from my phone to here just yet.

LOL


----------



## RickyLee

Here is the short plate Great Britain GE with the two ribs. The delicate lettering is rubbed off already


----------



## RickyLee

Here is the Telefunken. Has 3 ribs.


----------



## Jethro Rocker

jeid said:


> Hello, I have a 2007 Marshall JVM. I'm looking to replace some of the preamp tubes. I have NOS RFT's in V1 & V2 but just the stock tubes in V3-V5. I play mainly heavy rock/metal but I like a bit of versatility. I'm not sure what's good at the moment or if the RFT's are the best for the positions I have them in.
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated as I'm a bit out of touch with CP tubes.
> 
> Cheers!



You'll have to try some I'm afraid. It's pretty subtle. Try the RFT in other spots and stock in V1&2 and see if you can hear the difference. The CP Tungsols have a fair amount of gain, the JJs are fairly dark, some older GE or Amperex can be quite bright. Depends what you're after!


----------



## RickyLee

More props to the Chinese 12AX7's.

I swapped out some Chinese for old NOS GE and a Telefunken ribbed plate on my AFD35/SIR 36 Clone and these basic GT and Ruby Chinese 12AX7's sound as good in this circuit. So keeping the Chinese valves in there and saving the old glass for something else.


----------



## RickyLee

http://www.marshallforum.com/attach...n-where-why-how-great-britain-short-plate.jpg


http://www.marshallforum.com/attach...es-who-what-when-where-why-how-telefunken.jpg

Any takers on that short plate British ECC83 with only two ribs?


EDIT: OOOPS. See thread or permalink 17189 & 17190 for pics.


----------



## Dogs of Doom




----------



## RickyLee

Thanks DOD. You know anything about that GE labeled Great Britain 12AX7/ECC83?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I looked around & couldn't find anything...


----------



## mickeydg5

What makes you think that was made in Great Britain?
It does not look Great Brittany.

It appears generally electrified.


----------



## RickyLee

LOL. It had the GE logo and Great Britain on it but sadly it wiped off from putting it back in the box. I was trying to be careful with it as well.

It was a NOS ECC83 I picked up as just GE but had the GB as well and it also has the seams on the top of the glass. I have not seen the plates like that before though.


----------



## mickeydg5

Actually I think I am seeing a Japanese manufacture for GE maybe was marked Made in Great Britain.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ricky, are there four seams in an X on the top or just two? I think Mikey is right. It looks like a Japanese NEC.


----------



## RickyLee

There was just two seems on top.

Yeah, I had not seen one with plates like that.


----------



## RiverRatt

I gotta tell somebody about this, and it has a preamp tube so here goes. I was trading amp parts and stuff with a guy. I had a bunch of old signal caps, germanium transistors and random parts, and he was giving me a gutted Valve Jr head & chassis with the good transformers and an empty Watts turret board. 

He liked the stuff so much that he gave me a Garnet Herzog. If you guys know your weird amp history, it's a single-ended 6V6 amp with a dummy load and an output jack basically making it an overdrive pedal. Randy Bachman used one for the American Woman tone. 

It's an original 1960's model with the stock tubes. I haven't opened it up, but the 12AX7 has seams! Last Canadian amp I opened up was loaded with I63s.


----------



## RickyLee

You are referring to the American Woman lead part tone, correct? I have always wondered how he got that sound. Figured it was a fuzz pedal of some kind.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that lead tone. I always just rolled off the tone control. I'm curious to see what this device can do though. I won't be home until tomorrow night and then all I have is my LP. The strat is at my parents' house. Divorces are fun. I've got **** spread out over two counties.


----------



## RickyLee

Yeah, sorry to hear about the D.

My buddy had to sell off quite a bit of equipment including some nice cars and his Harley.

I filled up two rooms collecting gear and amps. I think some of that was subconscious to keep people from moving back in on us. But it did not work out all too well in that sense as we still have family that moved back in.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem. Sometimes staying together is worse than a divorce. I have had to sell off a lot of gear too but that's mostly due to medical circumstances. It happens. I don't get really sentimental over guitars and amps, and I've had to sell off stuff before. It always comes back.


----------



## RiverRatt

Anyone want to take a stab at this? It's definitely Philips with very distinct seams but no markings whatsoever. I'm thinking Amperex or Electrohome maybe?


----------



## gameshound

RiverRatt said:


> Anyone want to take a stab at this? It's definitely Philips with very distinct seams but no markings whatsoever. I'm thinking Amperex or Electrohome maybe?



I am thinking BEL OR MATSU****A

BOTH PLATES HAVE THE MIDDLE CRESENT HOLES PUNCHED OUT
EVERY ELECTROHOME I HAVE( and that a lot)... The crescent holes are only in the front plate

I have seen both BEL and MATSU****A that look like this tube


----------



## gameshound

On another note!!!
The MULLARDS are here ... The mullards are here

I61 short plate... Blackburn made.. The real deal!!!

I have a bunch for sale.. P.M for details!!

Gameshound


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, good call. Judging by the age of the amp, I don't think it's a Matsu****a though. They would have been Using the slant getter design thru the 1960's.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ha ha. How pathetic. A Japanese tube manufacturer's company name is now being censored because it contains four letters in succession that spells s*h*i*t.

I guess from now on you guys can spell it as Matsusheeta.

Let's not upset any of the 12 year old Girl Scouts that are members. LOL!


----------



## mickeydg5

There is a thread about this.
On it I rattled off the word s-h-I-t in a bunch of languages.
Only English is censored. That is really something. It is kind of funny, but sad at the same time.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well in that case I had better brush up on my French. 

I don't want to offend anyone by using a word as common as s*h*i*t.


----------



## Riffraff

Matsush!ta

That works.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Ha ha! Good one! !!!


----------



## mickeydg5

Matsushata. Past tense for vintage old stock.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Matsushita...


----------



## mickeydg5

How does he do that?


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgpoOF-tviI[/ame]


matsu****a...


----------



## MarshallDog

Anyone have success using a 12au7 or 12at7 in the v1 or PI position of Marshalls to help tame the gain? Anything I should be aware of?


----------



## johnfv

I have used 12AT7 for PI in my 1959T with good results. Don't expect it to be a dramatic change but I found it gave a bit more headroom. Generally 12AT/U tubes don't sound very good in V1, in some amps I have had good results with 12AT7 in V2 position.


----------



## MarshallDog

johnfv said:


> I have used 12AT7 for PI in my 1959T with good results. Don't expect it to be a dramatic change but I found it gave a bit more headroom. Generally 12AT/U tubes don't sound very good in V1, in some amps I have had good results with 12AT7 in V2 position.



I have a 12au7 on its way and plan on trying it in the PI and V2 position in my DSL 40C. Also going to try a set of jj KT77 tubes.


----------



## RiverRatt

I tried just about everything in my DSL50 at one time or another. Neither tube sounded good to me in either V1 or as a PI. I thought the amp sounded muffled and unresponsive with either tube but most noticeably as a phase inverter. If you want loud and clean, crank the master volume all the way and use the gain control as a master volume. There's only so much changing tube types can do in a Marshall. Fenders seem to be able to handle them and keep their tone and dynamics.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

maybe try it in the tonestack/cathode follower. That's what Marshall did w/ the DSL1/JVM1...

I prefer the 12BH7a to the ECC82 - more headroom. A lot of people like the 5751 in V1/PI to try & tame an amp, w/o changing the characteristics of the amp...


----------



## MarshallDog

Well, so far I like the JJ 12AU7 in V2 in my DSL 40C. Very Plexi sounding. It makes The Ultra 1 Channel have more headroom soI can set the other channel to clean allowing me two have a clean and classic crunch channel. The JJ 12AU7 seems a bit brighter than the others I have tried which gets away from that muffled tone. All of the other pres are JJ 12AX7's ECC803S's. I have rehearsal tomorrow night so that will be the real test.


----------



## MarshallDog

Dogs of Doom said:


> maybe try it in the tonestack/cathode follower. That's what Marshall did w/ the DSL1/JVM1...
> 
> I prefer the 12BH7a to the ECC82 - more headroom. A lot of people like the 5751 in V1/PI to try & tame an amp, w/o changing the characteristics of the amp...



Stupid question but which tube would be the tonestack in a ad 40C with a total of 4 preamp tubes?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I don't own a DSL, maybe ask Micky in the DSL40 thread...

I would guess V3, but, I'd ask to make sure...


----------



## mickeydg5

In the DSL40C V3 is the amplifier/cathode follower stage right before the tone stack.


----------



## MarshallDog

mickeydg5 said:


> In the DSL40C V3 is the amplifier/cathode follower stage right before the tone stack.



Thanks Mickey, when they say "tone stack" does that mean it has the most affect on tone and changing that tube would yield the biggest change in tone and gain? If yes, why, just curious on how it all works.


----------



## solarburn

MarshallDog said:


> Thanks Mickey, when they say "tone stack" does that mean it has the most affect on tone and changing that tube would yield the biggest change in tone and gain? If yes, why, just curious on how it all works.



V1 & V2 in this amp are the 2 slots you will notice most. The other 2 to a lesser degree. V3 needs to be sturdy being cathode follower. Not so much a tone slot. v4(PI)I have rolled a bit and it can have a bit effect on tone or feel.


----------



## mickeydg5

MarshallDog said:


> Thanks Mickey, when they say "tone stack" does that mean it has the most affect on tone and changing that tube would yield the biggest change in tone and gain? If yes, why, just curious on how it all works.


V3 drives the tone stack. Reducing its gain by going to a 12AU7 will affect tone some but will affect gain (volume) drastically. You can turn up the GAIN and VOLUME control to see how much tone is affected with a 12AU7 and if you like that setup.


----------



## solarburn

I've got this threads 3 Amigos in this here Plexi clone.(1960-Infinium)

V1=Ruby 12AX7AC7 HG+(Joe)my new fav V1 current production. Got it in 3 amps.
V2=BEL(Marty)
PI=Sylvania JHS BP(Alan)

2 EH 6CA7's & 2 OEM EL34's. LTD EC1000 with Dimarz SD bridge/Paf Joe neck + just a nipple of my secret sauce in the front end. Plucking luv my recipes of tone.

Oh and a damn Yipper. Thread officially bumped.

[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=cADAYci9kWM[/ame]


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, I had to think long and hard to even remember those tubes. I got those off an 80-year-old biker and ex-ham radio fanatic. Glad you are still putting it to good use. I think I still have one of the 5751's I got from him. The rest were sold to fund something that I'm sure I had to have at the time.

I can't get the video to play on my phone.


----------



## solarburn

There is only audio on it. Give it a few seconds u should hear it...


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, that works now. Before I couldn't get it to play at all. Sounds damned good!

I've heard of an amp having a lot of bark but never understood it until now.


----------



## lordquilton

The thread that wouldn't die!

Got someone selling these Down Under for about $27 (usd)
Apparently unused NIB.








Does anyone recognize these?
Looks like a halo getter and straight plates.
Saw something on one site that said these were common in the 80's, maybe an EI from Yugoslavia?
Are they worth a try?


----------



## mickeydg5

Appears to be EI.


----------



## lordquilton

Thanks Mickey.
Hrmm, reputation's a bit hit and miss.


----------



## iron broadsword

Gonna roll a few preamp tubes while I have my 900 (el34, modified preamp) on the bench. I have a JJ in V1 now.. and routing around my stash I currently have 2 tungsols, an EHx, and a Shuguang on hand. All CP of course. Of these, what do you guys like in yours?


----------



## jimmyjames

I like EHxs in V2 and V3 of my DSL15H


----------



## OldGuySGFusionPlayer

Dannyz said:


> Did anyone tried the CP Svetlana 12ax7? Ive heard really good things, that it sounds like the CP Tungsol without too much "grain" with a perfect balance in tone, with a bit more gain that CP Mullard 12ax7 cv4004.




Yea I currently have V3 and V4 using Svetlana 12AX7 But, 
I need a PI that gives me just a tiny bit of darkness not mud. I found that using 2 Sovtek WB in V1 and V2 gave me the gain I need. Hell man this is like chasing a ghost trying to find some kind of magic 4 Preamp tubes. It is completely true how they all work together to shape your tone. So now I am trying at least one Tungsol 12AX7 for the PI. I hope that keeps enough high end but you know works the magic. 

The Svetlana tube doesnt have the gain we need. Its clean and bright and Organic. Organic is really the best word to describe it. It doesnt color your tone at all but there just isnt any gain to it.

I am hoping keeping it in V3 will give me that clarity it has and trying a High Gain Tungsol maybe in V1 and or a regular Tungsol maybe as the PI V4.

This is expensive.


----------



## Dannyz

OldGuySGFusionPlayer said:


> Yea I currently have V3 and V4 using Svetlana 12AX7 But,
> I need a PI that gives me just a tiny bit of darkness not mud. I found that using 2 Sovtek WB in V1 and V2 gave me the gain I need. Hell man this is like chasing a ghost trying to find some kind of magic 4 Preamp tubes. It is completely true how they all work together to shape your tone. So now I am trying at least one Tungsol 12AX7 for the PI. I hope that keeps enough high end but you know works the magic.
> 
> The Svetlana tube doesnt have the gain we need. Its clean and bright and Organic. Organic is really the best word to describe it. It doesnt color your tone at all but there just isnt any gain to it.
> 
> I am hoping keeping it in V3 will give me that clarity it has and trying a High Gain Tungsol maybe in V1 and or a regular Tungsol maybe as the PI V4.
> 
> This is expensive.



Because nobody said anything about the Svet 12ax7 i´ve pulled the triger over one. This was the only hint that made me buy it (Guitar Amp Board - View topic - Svetlana 12AX7.)
Im using it in my amp (SL5), it has a JCM 800 preamp circuit, V3 position, which is my tonestack (v3a) and "phase inverter" (V3b). Previously at that spot i had a Marshall relabeled shuguang aka "silver dragon", looks the same as TAD 7025/12ax7wa. That one was really agressive, bright, cutting and middy in a clanky/metallic way. The Svet sounds a lot more balanced, with less highs but still super clear. Its a bit warmer too, with good mids. If the silver dragon had (from 1 to 10) 10 in gain department, the Svet has 7.8. Just the right amount.

By the way @OldGuySGFusionPlayer, what function does V3 in your amp?


----------



## OldGuySGFusionPlayer

Dannyz said:


> Because nobody said anything about the Svet 12ax7 i´ve pulled the triger over one. This was the only hint that made me buy it (Guitar Amp Board - View topic - Svetlana 12AX7.)
> Im using it in my amp (SL5), it has a JCM 800 preamp circuit, V3 position, which is my tonestack (v3a) and "phase inverter" (V3b). Previously at that spot i had a Marshall relabeled shuguang aka "silver dragon", looks the same as TAD 7025/12ax7wa. That one was really agressive, bright, cutting and middy in a clanky/metallic way. The Svet sounds a lot more balanced, with less highs but still super clear. Its a bit warmer too, with good mids. If the silver dragon had (from 1 to 10) 10 in gain department, the Svet has 7.8. Just the right amount.
> 
> By the way @OldGuySGFusionPlayer, what function does V3 in your amp?




I have the JCM 2000 TSL 100 (probably revision 1)
I can definitely tell you in my amp V3 is the critical position for Tone. Thats why I want to keep a Sveltana in that position. I would say I am pretty happy with the sound of my amp with my current set up V1 V2 = Sovtek WB and V3 and V4 = Svetlana. 

I also now have Svetlana EL34 Power tubes in it which do sound awesome. 
I am really just using the VPR mode in my amp , 25 watt power mode, at very low volume so I know that if I turned up like a normal player it would sound great the way it is. 

Most everyone especially in this thread stress that the Phase Inverter, V4, should be a different tube than the others. I haven't read that people are using the same tubes in V3 and V4 so I figured I should try something else that is supposedly good in V4. 

I know for my amp the Mullard 12AX7 C4004 in V1 or V2 had the gain to boost that Svetlana in V3 but it Darkened my tone too much. It cut the high frequencies drastically so when playing clean i didnt have any chime to it. 

I really like the Svetlana preamp tubes. With The Amp just turned up to a decent volume I know will yield a different result than what I am hearing. 
The Tung-Sol 12AX7 tubes seem to be mentioned frequently so I am just trying something new out.


----------



## iron broadsword

I ordered a NOS Jan Phillips 12AU7 for cheap for a pedal project I am doing (matsumin valvecaster) and for fun I tried it in my class 5 in the V1 slot. Un-believeable tone! It has less preamp gain now and when you crank it up it just becomes absolutely GLORIOUS now instead of getting fuzzy and muddy! Just pure power tube crunch... so clear and righteous. I can obtain this on my 100w jcm900 by keeping preamp low and diming the master, but I didn't think it was possible to get this with this little amp. 

I have a CP JJ 12au7 I'm gonna try as well just to see exactly how much of the difference is manufacturing quality vs lower mu, but yeah it's unreal. This is a must try for anybody who wants more acdc out of their class 5.


----------



## RickyLee

I would like to buy about four Chinese made 12AX7's. But I am wondering if there is more than just one 12AX7 being produced out of China? Or is it all the same tube but with different brand names? 

And then the bigger question: Do the new production Chinese 12AX7's still have the enhanced mids like the older ones from the late 80's/early 90's?

Gain factor is not as important as the clarity and enhanced mids. I was looking in my stock DSL100 tonight to see why it sounds so amazing. I have it loaded with Chinese 12AX7's and I had put in a new quad of Svetlana EL34's last time I had it out. Plate voltage was 488V and I had the Svets idling at 75mA per pair/side. 

I am not sure what is going on with my 6100's all of a sudden, but this DSL100 had a much better tone when I was at the studio comparing the amps. I plugged in the 6100LM at the house tonight and was not thrilled at all. I was also hearing a slight bit of background static on the 6100 CH3 during the notes decaying/fading out. Odd as I loaded up some NOS glass all through the preamp of that 6100 last time I was playing it, as well as put in a new quad of Tung Sol EL34B's. So maybe tomorrow, I am going to check out the 6100.


----------



## MarshallDog

For what its worth, I am really liking a Jan 5751 in the V2 slot of my high gain amps (2558 Jubilee & DSL 40C). It keeps channel one very similar to its original flavor BUT for channels two it knocks down some of that gain which I do not need and it gives it a slight warmer tone. I would do this in my JMPS only because they dont have the gain that the others do. Anyone else use a 5751 in V2?


----------



## Bownse

Coming Up For Breath.

WHEW! Talk about a lot of great info to absorb. I'm only to page 15 so far (post #560) with a lot more to go.

Already I'm starting to itch to try NOS options.

What I have: DSL40C with cap 19 clipped, a 75w16ohm Creamback swap and OEM tubes. I'm playing the LP in my sig block.

What tubes I have that I'm about ready to start rolling.

A matched pair of JJ E34L that are tested/labeled as 32/5.5 (on each box).
A matched pair of T-EL34B-TAD-MP (cp)
A pair of T-12AX7-MUL Mullard Russians
A pair of T-12AX7-TUNG Tungsol Reissue Russians

What I had planned to do was try the TADs as power swaps since I've heard the JJs don't bring much difference to the table from OEM.

Then a MUL in V1 and PI and the TUNGs in V2 and V3.

BUT... I'm "now" (as in 2009 of the date stamps of the posts I've gotten into) reading that the TUNGs are more prone to fail in V3 because np are lacking in voltage tollerance.

I like blues (Clapton, Elmore James, etc.) and classic (blues influenced) rock (Joplin, etc.). But I also am digging on the dirt I can get out of the amp when playing harder stuff like Lita Ford, AC/DC, and The Clash.

Given the combos above in the DSL40c I'm casting for recommendations on a starting point for the above available tubes.

I think my head's basplodin' from all this great info. I played a Fender bass back in the 70s with a Fender Bassmaster 100 head and 4x12 cabinet. Back then all I cared about was if it worked when I turned it on. Lugged that gear everywhere and never had to even think about tube failures. I was more interested in strings (flat wound, round wound, or semi-round wound - hint: I liked the SRW).

--Update--

Marty (The MAN) PMd me with a tube set recommendation. Thankfully I currently have about half of them (including the 2 power tubes) on hand. Thanks Marty.


----------



## Bownse

Update

Based on some PMs I first set things up as:

Matched pair of T-EL34B-TAD-MP
V1 to V4
TungSol T-12AX7-TUNG
Mullard (Russian) T-12AX7-MUL
TungSol T-12AX7-TUNG
OEM Marshall (JJ?) 12AX7
Also put damper rings on all tubes. End result is that it sounded "more melodic".


Ran those about a month. 

Just swapped V1 for a TAD 7025WA HG. With the first chord I could tell it was warmer. Nothing detrimental to the previous improvements.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found a bunch of 12AU7's, 12AV7's, 12AT7's and variants (even one NOS 12DW7). If anyone want any to play around with I'll be glad to send them out for $5 plus first-class postage. I'll try post some pics if anyone is interested. The DW7 might be a little more.


----------



## Beejer

Just purchased a 2005 Marshall 1974x. It came with Sovtek 12AX7WA preamp valves. You can guess where those went.... Along with the crappy Power/Recti tubes.

Installed NOS Mullard ECC83 (V1), NOS Mullard CV4004 (V2), and NOS RFT ECC83 (V3).
Also installed NOS Tungsram EL84 in power section with NOS Mullard EZ81 Rectifier.

Pricey, to be sure. Articulate chording, sweet leads, and tight bass.
So far I am blown away by this amp.

Anyone have suggestions on increasing overdrive/sustain for solo work?
A Tube Screamer? EQ? Clean Boost?
I am trying to not re-invent the wheel, so anything would be helpful.

Thanks from a grateful new member of the 1974X family.


___________________________

Gear List

Marshall 1974X (2005)
Marshall JCM 800 4212 (1988)
Suhr Badger 18 Combo
Fender Deluxe Reverb Siverface (1973)
The Valve 105 "Bimbo" 5 watt plexi


----------



## dslman

This has to be a record for the longest thread, it's a good one,
Loving my 1963 Werlitzer branded GE long plates in v1 and v2. "warm and 3-D vintage"
v3 JJ ecc83s
v4 1987 last run military grade Philips 12ax7wa
All in my DSL50


----------



## RiverRatt

Beejer said:


> Just purchased a 2005 Marshall 1974x. It came with Sovtek 12AX7WA preamp valves. You can guess where those went.... Along with the crappy Power/Recti tubes.
> 
> Installed NOS Mullard ECC83 (V1), NOS Mullard CV4004 (V2), and NOS RFT ECC83 (V3).
> Also installed NOS Tungsram EL84 in power section with NOS Mullard EZ81 Rectifier.
> 
> Pricey, to be sure. Articulate chording, sweet leads, and tight bass.
> So far I am blown away by this amp.
> 
> Anyone have suggestions on increasing overdrive/sustain for solo work?
> A Tube Screamer? EQ? Clean Boost?
> I am trying to not re-invent the wheel, so anything would be helpful.
> 
> Thanks from a grateful new member of the 1974X family.
> 
> 
> ___________________________
> 
> Gear List
> 
> Marshall 1974X (2005)
> Marshall JCM 800 4212 (1988)
> Suhr Badger 18 Combo
> Fender Deluxe Reverb Siverface (1973)
> The Valve 105 "Bimbo" 5 watt plexi



Congrats on the amp and the sweet tube selection! I'd love to have a 1974, and those Tungsram EL84'S are the schiznit. Try a Tungsram ECC83 in V1 if you get a chance. They are magic in a Marshall. 

For my tastes, a clean boost or a TS9 are perfect for that amp. If you havent tried an EP Booster, now would be a good time. I've always wanted to try a Rangemaster clone in that kind of rig too - the clips I've heard are really good.


----------



## Beejer

For my tastes said:


> Thanks for the info. I have a TS808 and an RC Booster on another pedalboard. I guess I will have to do some switching out.
> I will also start looking for a Tungsram ECC83. Happy Rockin.


----------



## RiverRatt

I went 12AX7 hunting last week and did better than I thought I would. I snagged a Raytheon black plate and a Matsu****a slant getter on eBay. I got the Ray for $12.95 and the '****a for $9.95.

I found an amp from a Recordio reel-to-reel elsewhere on the net and bought it for $28. The seller said it had a Mullard 12AX7 and ECL82. I got it today. The 12AX7 turned out to be a 1960 I61 that tests new! The ECL82/6BM8 should bring $20 on eBay so that worked out really well. I've gotten some great tubes out of portable reel-to-reel machines. They don't seem to work them very hard so they are usually good and strong.

There are still some decent deals but you have to go out of your way to find them.


----------



## mickeydg5

Cool grabs and yes you have to wait and pounce on the good deals.


----------



## RiverRatt




----------



## Dogs of Doom

Anyone know what this is?


----------



## Dogs of Doom

ok, I found this...

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_rv12p2001.html


----------



## RiverRatt

Where did you find that? From what I'm seeing, it's a WWII era Wehrmacht tube. There were a few different ones in that family, and they all appear to be RF pentodes. I think yours is probably an RV12P2000 which is described as "universal" and was used in army radios, airborne communications and V2 missiles. 

Check this site out. It has a ton of info.

http://www.nonstopsystems.com/radio/hellschreiber-tubes.htm


----------



## Dogs of Doom

My brother's a militaria dealer. It's definitely Telefunken & was mfgr'd for the Luftwaffe. It has the nazi eagle painted on the side. Has an S in the base though. The site you posted says Siemans....


----------



## Dogs of Doom

Ok, here's some more shots...

I did the initial shots for my brother's auction, but, you can't have anything w/ a swazi, or even the eagle, that carries it...

In this 1st image, you see the straight up of the eagle. Off to the left, is the remnant of the Telefunken logo...






I'm not sure what it says here, probably some military stuff...










This is the mark, that says Siemens





This is the very bottom, not sure what this is...





This is a looser shot of the last 2 for context...


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool stuff, thanks for posting it. I'd think it's Telefunken. I don't know why they'd relabel a Siemens but I missed that on the website.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I guess the base is Siemens. The bakelite. I reread the site & that's what I got out of it...

When you look around the halo, it looks fogged. That means it's probably no good for use, right?


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm not sure. It looks like there's a small getter flash on the side. If you know anyone with a TV-7 tube tester, it'll test acorn tubes.


----------



## jep1210

RiverRatt said:


> I found a bunch of 12AU7's, 12AV7's, 12AT7's and variants (even one NOS 12DW7). If anyone want any to play around with I'll be glad to send them out for $5 plus first-class postage. I'll try post some pics if anyone is interested. The DW7 might be a little more.



Any chance you still have those?


----------



## RiverRatt

Pretty much all that except the 12DW7. I do have a used GE 7247 though that's the same tube as the DW7.


----------



## jep1210

I posted this in the Official DSL40C thread but thought I'd put it here too.

I rolled a 12AT7 into V1 and a JJ5751 into V4 from Doug's into my DSL40C based on one of the posts back on page 6 or 7. Both were matched tubes. The AT7 was marked 95/95 in sharpie on the tube and the 5751 was 100/100, still not sure what those numbers mean. I know they're a measurement of gain but how it relates to the tube's rating is still fuzzy for me.

Anyway, I really liked it. On the Classic Channel "Green 1" I was able to turn the gain up to about 8 and volume up to 3 or 4 and got no break up...which in my book is a good thing, I use external distortion/OD pedals. I have been playing it swapped with the volume at around 8 gain at 3-4 with the stock tubes. With the gain higher than volume I got a nice warm sound appose to the brighter sound I was getting when the volume was set higher than gain.

All of this is said with some trepidation as it's all been done at Bedroom levels. The acid test will be how it sounds at the next band get together...is that an acid test? Oh IDK it sounds good anyway.

One last thing, I noticed the 12AT7 was glowing more than any of the other tubes....not sure if that means anything....time will tell if it burns out quickly. But that got me thinking (I know, I know, alert the Guinness world record people ) Do you guys bring along extra, known good tube, when you play out?


----------



## MartyStrat54

The 12AT7 can be used safely in V1, but it sort of defeats the purpose of owning a high gain amp. Also running a 5751 in the PI will affect the signal to the power tubes. This amp's circuit was designed for 12AX7's. However, if it works for you that is all the counts.

The heater filaments in tubes are all made differently and they all glow differently.

There are two separate triode sections in a 12AX7. The 95/95 rating means it is a balanced tube. The 95 rating is appropriate for a new tube.


----------



## jep1210

MartyStrat54 said:


> The 12AT7 can be used safely in V1, but it sort of defeats the purpose of owning a high gain amp. Also running a 5751 in the PI will affect the signal to the power tubes. This amp's circuit was designed for 12AX7's. However, if it works for you that is all the counts.
> 
> The heater filaments in tubes are all made differently and they all glow differently.
> 
> There are two separate triode sections in a 12AX7. The 95/95 rating means it is a balanced tube. The 95 rating is appropriate for a new tube.



Thanks Marty, I here ya about AT7 in a high gain amp but I have external Distortion to get the gain I need. The DSL is extremely bright and fizzy IMO and I'm trying to tame that a bit. 

Good to know the "bright glow" is nothing to be concerned with.

*EDIT* The Red 2 channel still has quite an acceptable amount of gain even with the low output tubes.


----------



## ken361

At7's neuter's the amp IMO never liked them except in a clean fender! proper tubes and bias and guitar setup helps greatly in tone. My DSL smooth as hell I run it at bedroom level's and at 4 on red 1 or green channel loud at 7! couple NOS will smooth it out!


----------



## jep1210

ken361 said:


> At7's neuter's the amp IMO never liked them except in a clean fender! proper tubes and bias and guitar setup helps greatly in tone. My DSL smooth as hell I run it at bedroom level's and at 4 on red 1 or green channel loud at 7! couple NOS will smooth it out!



Ah, "proper tubes", that's the key. That's what I'm trying to find, the proper tubes.


----------



## ken361

I run a Tungsol in the v1,v2 Amperex,v2 Penta/GT mullard RI,v4 Slyvania/Baldwin
The Baldwin's is a pretty smooth tube that can sound good almost anywhere in the amp, works great as a PI tube. Is amp have the stock bias and speaker? Red channel needs some volume to smooth out but thats too loud for church I notice my amp sounds fuller at my girl friends condo with a carpeted floor and drop ceiling. My house is way older and unfinished.


----------



## RiverRatt

ken361 said:


> At7's neuter's the amp IMO never liked them except in a clean fender! proper tubes and bias and guitar setup helps greatly in tone. My DSL smooth as hell I run it at bedroom level's and at 4 on red 1 or green channel loud at 7! couple NOS will smooth it out!



Like 

I've never liked a 12AT7 anywhere in a Marshall. I recently bought a SL5 combo and when I tried it out in the shop it sounded like ass. I figured that the problem was either the tubes or the speaker, and sure enough when I got it home, someone had put a JJ 12AT7 in it. 

The 12AT7 just isn't a good tone tube. Even in Fenders they were only used as a reverb driver. A Mullard, Amperex, RFT, Telefunken or similar would be an excellent V1 tube. A Raytheon black plate in V2 is a great choice too. V3 needs to be a good strong tube - it doesn't really matter what. Your V4 choice is going to affect the feel and response of the amp. A fairly high gain 12AX7 will open the amp up and let it breathe. 

I know this thread is a beast, but if you've read any of the older posts, we all traded tubes around and tried everything we could get our hands on and that was the tube line-up that everyone agreed sounded best in a DSL. The green channel with the gain rolled back and the master up to at least 4 is a great crunch tone and takes pedals really well.


----------



## ken361

RiverRatt said:


> Like
> 
> I've never liked a 12AT7 anywhere in a Marshall. I recently bought a SL5 combo and when I tried it out in the shop it sounded like ass. I figured that the problem was either the tubes or the speaker, and sure enough when I got it home, someone had put a JJ 12AT7 in it.
> 
> The 12AT7 just isn't a good tone tube. Even in Fenders they were only used as a reverb driver. A Mullard, Amperex, RFT, Telefunken or similar would be an excellent V1 tube. A Raytheon black plate in V2 is a great choice too. V3 needs to be a good strong tube - it doesn't really matter what. Your V4 choice is going to affect the feel and response of the amp. A fairly high gain 12AX7 will open the amp up and let it breathe.
> 
> I know this thread is a beast, but if you've read any of the older posts, we all traded tubes around and tried everything we could get our hands on and that was the tube line-up that everyone agreed sounded best in a DSL. The green channel with the gain rolled back and the master up to at least 4 is a great crunch tone and takes pedals really well.



Hey Alan long time! remember I bought the Amperex of you on Ebay 2009 I think! I have not used it that much since I sold the JVM but now I have the DSL 40 it work great as a V2


----------



## MartyStrat54

I got my RCA PA amp back from Don Sloan recently. When I delivered the amp to him I had installed a Mullard in V1, Raytheon BP in V2 and a high gain Sylvania long plate in the PI. I included a JAN Sylvania 5V4 rectifier and the power tubes were the new Black Label JJ/Telefunkens. The Tele EL34's were surprisingly good sounding tubes (as verified by the forum members that participated in testing them). After getting the amp back I was going to roll some tubes in it and the only thing I changed was the power tubes. I put the Sylvania triple getter 6CA7's in it. I decided that the amp sounds really good with that I61 Mullard. No need to try anything else.


----------



## RiverRatt

Ken, I've sold more tubes than I can even remember. Was it one of the Hammond tubes? That's the last ones I remember having. 

Marty, that is too cool. Did he modify the existing circuit or build a new amp? I have a Hammond AO-43 organ amp I need to do something with. I think I may do a Matchless Lightning clone with it. I have a little Bogen Challenger that would make a nice Deluxe or similar too.


----------



## MartyStrat54

Only the chassis, cage and RCA choke were used. Everything else is brand new. It is a variant of a SIR #36. It puts out 45 watts and is cathode biased so power tube swapping is a breeze. I wish I had this amp about 10 years ago. It's so easy to roll tubes, but on the other hand if I had been rolling tubes in it for that long I would be replacing the sockets.


----------



## jep1210

ken361 said:


> I run a Tungsol in the v1,v2 Amperex,v2 Penta/GT mullard RI,v4 Slyvania/Baldwin
> The Baldwin's is a pretty smooth tube that can sound good almost anywhere in the amp, works great as a PI tube. Is amp have the stock bias and speaker? Red channel needs some volume to smooth out but thats too loud for church I notice my amp sounds fuller at my girl friends condo with a carpeted floor and drop ceiling. My house is way older and unfinished.





RiverRatt said:


> Like
> 
> I've never liked a 12AT7 anywhere in a Marshall. I recently bought a SL5 combo and when I tried it out in the shop it sounded like ass. I figured that the problem was either the tubes or the speaker, and sure enough when I got it home, someone had put a JJ 12AT7 in it.
> 
> The 12AT7 just isn't a good tone tube. Even in Fenders they were only used as a reverb driver. A Mullard, Amperex, RFT, Telefunken or similar would be an excellent V1 tube. A Raytheon black plate in V2 is a great choice too. V3 needs to be a good strong tube - it doesn't really matter what. Your V4 choice is going to affect the feel and response of the amp. A fairly high gain 12AX7 will open the amp up and let it breathe.
> 
> I know this thread is a beast, but if you've read any of the older posts, we all traded tubes around and tried everything we could get our hands on and that was the tube line-up that everyone agreed sounded best in a DSL. The green channel with the gain rolled back and the master up to at least 4 is a great crunch tone and takes pedals really well.



Thanks a lot guys. I really appreciate the advice, gives me a lot to go on, and a lot of information to add to my ever growing document I've created from this and the DSL thread. I'm going to try to lay my hands on some of the tubes you guys have mentioned and try them out too.


----------



## mickeydg5

MartyStrat54 said:


> Only the chassis, cage and RCA choke were used. Everything else is brand new. It is a variant of a SIR #36. It puts out 45 watts and is cathode biased so power tube swapping is a breeze. I wish I had this amp about 10 years ago. It's so easy to roll tubes, but on the other hand if I had been rolling tubes in it for that long I would be replacing the sockets.


That is a bitchin big amplifier chassis.

Clips if you can.


----------



## jep1210

ken361 said:


> I run a Tungsol in the v1,v2 Amperex,v2 Penta/GT mullard RI,v4 Slyvania/Baldwin
> The Baldwin's is a pretty smooth tube that can sound good almost anywhere in the amp, works great as a PI tube. Is amp have the stock bias and speaker? Red channel needs some volume to smooth out but thats too loud for church I notice my amp sounds fuller at my girl friends condo with a carpeted floor and drop ceiling. My house is way older and unfinished.



Sorry Ken, I completely missed your question. The Bias and speaker are stock. I play with pedals so I usually live in the Green channel, green1 to be exact since I need to have a clean option in the band. I may just try the Red channel at a practice to hear what it sounds like.


----------



## MartyStrat54

mickeydg5 said:


> That is a bitchin big amplifier chassis.
> 
> Clips if you can.



The amp is in Tulsa right now. I'm going to try and record it being used at an RPM show. May take awhile, but I will get some clips.

I will put this amp up against a Billy Blades amp any day.


----------



## MartyStrat54

I recently acquired this pair of 1957 Sylvania Black Plates with the square getters. Can't wait to roll these in an amp.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

what ever happened to those tubes you sent off to China?


----------



## MartyStrat54

Well I documented everything and I have a copy of the customs label from the post office and copies of the two letters I sent them (including pictures of the letters with the overseas stamp). Of course it is also documented here on the forum.

So far I haven't heard a thing from them, but you never know.

Maybe a fat check for me in 2018? LOL!


----------



## wakjob

I could use a few recommendations...

6v6gt.
12au7.
12ay7.

CP or NOS, I'm all ears.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

MartyStrat54 said:


> Well I documented everything and I have a copy of the customs label from the post office and copies of the two letters I sent them (including pictures of the letters with the overseas stamp). Of course it is also documented here on the forum.
> 
> So far I haven't heard a thing from them, but you never know.
> 
> Maybe a fat check for me in 2018? LOL!


they're probably waiting for a big fat check from you to start R&D... ...


----------



## MartyStrat54

wakjob said:


> I could use a few recommendations...
> 
> 6v6gt.
> 12au7.
> 12ay7.
> 
> CP or NOS, I'm all ears.



6V6's are one of the lower priced tubes on EBAY. You can get a strong used pair for around $45.

The USA 12AU7's and 12AY7's are plentiful on EBAY. The 12AY7's vary wildly in price, but most sellers are around $50 for a pair or $25+ for a single.

Here is an exceptional deal on a pair of Raytheon Black Plate 12AU7's for $15 and free shipping. Snag this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1959-Raythe...186185?hash=item25b1c3c149:g:7dIAAOSwpDdU8XGw


----------



## wakjob

Any particular manufacturer or era/years for the 6v6?

Bought the 12au7's you linked. Thanks!


----------



## RiverRatt

wakjob said:


> Any particular manufacturer or era/years for the 6v6?
> 
> Bought the 12au7's you linked. Thanks!



I have a handful of 12AV7's that are a pretty sweet sub for a 12AY7. They have a slightly lower amplification factor but they also have a really low plate resistance so that makes up for it. I've tried them in my 5F2A and they have a nice tone. PM me if you'd like to try one. I also have a lot of 6V6's that don't match each other. If you only need one tube let me know. 

I've been digging in my massive collection of worthless tubes and found a couple of 6SJ7 octal pentodes for my next project. Riffraff's Stromberg Carlson PA amp got me wanting to try an octal preamp. I found a cool single-ended amp with a 6SJ7 and KT88, but it would be easy to adapt it to just about any octal output tube. 

Metal bases are pretty cool.


----------



## wakjob

Thanks Alan!

Hey, if you have 2 decent 6v6's that match even if they're from different manufacturers I'd be interested.

I just wanna try something other that the JJ 6v6S tube that I've always used ( and like ) in my 5e3. Got around 350-360 on the plates right now.

--John


----------



## wakjob

Also, if Alan or Marty could answer this...

Is it safe to use something like Tarn-X on the pins of old tubes?
You guys have a better solution other than potentiometer cleaner and a green 3M pad?


----------



## ken361

wakjob said:


> Also, if Alan or Marty could answer this...
> 
> Is it safe to use something like Tarn-X on the pins of old tubes?
> You guys have a better solution other than potentiometer cleaner and a green 3M pad?



Use Deoxit 5 and spray the pins


----------



## wakjob

ken361 said:


> Use Deoxit 5 and spray the pins



That's what I have been doing along with gently scrubbing them with the 3M pad.

They still don't get all nice and shiny like a new tube.


----------



## RiverRatt

The only problem with Tarn-X or Brasso is that it tends to get all over everything, including all that delicate print on the tube. I've used Brasso and a pin straightener and it works pretty well. 

I'll dig through my 6V6's and see what I have. I can only match them by transconductance but they should be close enough.


----------



## solarburn

wakjob said:


> Thanks Alan!
> 
> Hey, if you have 2 decent 6v6's that match even if they're from different manufacturers I'd be interested.
> 
> I just wanna try something other that the JJ 6v6S tube that I've always used ( and like ) in my 5e3. Got around 350-360 on the plates right now.
> 
> --John



Wak I just got a quad of those JJ 6V6's and put them in the 1960-I. Wanted to lower overall volume...little experiment since these Buger's self bias. Plus I read the JJ 6V6's are pretty tough.

So far so good. They sound/feel pretty good...the amp is still damn loud but I can really get into the power section without killing my 412 GB'd cab now.

First time using 6V6's for me.


----------



## wakjob

solarburnDSL50 said:


> Wak I just got a quad of those JJ 6V6's and put them in the 1960-I. Wanted to lower overall volume...little experiment since these Buger's self bias. Plus I read the JJ 6V6's are pretty tough.
> 
> So far so good. They sound/feel pretty good...the amp is still damn loud but I can really get into the power section without killing my 412 GB'd cab now.
> 
> First time using 6V6's for me.



The JJ 6v6-S is a slightly different animal. Described as being kind of 6L6-ish.
I think JJ attempted to make a normal 6v6 at one time, but I don't see them anymore.

I like it a lot.
I just never experienced the joy of a real 6v6 construction, let alone some old glass.


----------



## RiverRatt

I found this today. I don't usually buy 12AT7's but this one was pretty cool.


----------



## mickeydg5

Those look like RFT ECC81 to me.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yeah, pretty sure it is RFT. It has the flat top and wide envelope. I've never seen one before so I grabbed it for the collection. It was in a military JAN box dated 5/87 but I don't know if it's original or not. I don't much think so, but you never know when you're dealing with JAN tubes. I've gotten boxes with labels 2 or 3 deep. 

How about those supports? I've never seen that before either.


----------



## mickeydg5

That looks like normal National markings.
Just go to Ebay and search RFT ECC81. That will give lots of pictures. You will see that "sheet piling" support a lot.


----------



## RiverRatt

I love these listings. There's so much wrong info here and that's just in the title.


----------



## RickyLee

Would I hear a difference rolling a 12AT7 RFT from an old GE 12AT7 in the phase inverter of my Deluxe Reverb?

Also,

Any of you guys have experience with these fetron TR1009's?

http://el34world.com/Forum/index.php?topic=12710.0


----------



## RiverRatt

Not very likely on the AT7. 

Those solid-state tube replacements pop up from time to time and they all just fade away without making much of a splash. There's just no logic in buying a device to turn your $2K Marshall head into a $200 solid-state amp. Jfets don't sound like tubes in circuits that were designed around them. I don't see how dropping one in a tube circuit along with a huge dropping resistor could be nearly as good as the worst 12AX7 made.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Not very likely on the AT7.
> 
> Those solid-state tube replacements pop up from time to time and they all just fade away without making much of a splash. There's just no logic in buying a device to turn your $2K Marshall head into a $200 solid-state amp. Jfets don't sound like tubes in circuits that were designed around them. I don't see how dropping one in a tube circuit along with a huge dropping resistor could be nearly as good as the worst 12AX7 made.



If you run in to any listings on them fetrons, let me know as I would like to pick up a few more if they are cheap enough.


----------



## RiverRatt

Really? Well, fact is always better than opinion. What's your take on them?


----------



## mickeydg5

JFET devices simulating vacuum tube triodes they were.

Most go solid state then will you?


----------



## iron broadsword

What do you guys make of the JAN CWL 12ax7? 

It's got a short grey plate and a square getter. I've got 3 of them and I've been using 2 in my class 5.. but I have the amp home this week so I'm probably gonna roll a few tubes just to see if my ears still like them as much as I think they do.


----------



## mickeydg5

Joint Army Navy
CWL is manufacturer code for Westinghouse.

I would think those to be nice tubes. Roll them all the same. The only real good tube is one that performs as well as sounds good.


----------



## iron broadsword

Yeah, I am new to the nos thing so I keep calling them jan's.. but it does have an enormous westinghouse label on it as well of course. I tried to stay away from nos because I had enough stuff to chase with my money, but I picked a lot up on the cheap and now it's hard to look at cp the same.


----------



## RiverRatt

My god, I struck gold today. I got a grab bag of tubes from Goodwill and check it out. Nine 12AX7's, including two Full Music high-end Chinese tubes, a pair of Amperex I61's, and a few GE and Tung-Sols. There were seven 6BQ5's, including a pair of Sylvanias and an Amperex, a GE, and the rest were 6P14P's. Four 6L6G's, two metal can 6L6's, an RCA black plate 6L6GC, a Genalex KT88, a pair of Tung-Sol 6550's, a couple of 5V4G rectifiers, and a load of 12AU7's and ECL82's. This is the best score I've had in years.


----------



## mickeydg5

Nice haul.


----------



## mtm105

***************** GREATEST NECRO THREAD EVER!!!!*******************************

I have Blackheart Little Giant and Killer Ant. I've tried replacing "inferior" Chinese 12ZX7 with quality JJs.

I prefer the Chinese tubes. Little Giant comes with JJs. I found a Chinese tube I installed and prefer it.

Are JJs susceptible to criticism?? It says its for Blues & Jazz. I'm more into a higher gain sound.


----------



## iron broadsword

JJ's are a little darker than others but are high gain. IMHO you get way more out of changing speaker cabs first though, so if you are trying to get a modern high gain tone out of a speaker/cab that sucks at it.. then there's your real problem. 

In my jcm900, mesa DR, and class5's preamp tube swapping is worthwhile but only after getting the right speaker for the job.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> Really? Well, fact is always better than opinion. What's your take on them?



Dude, I am sorry about missing your post. Hopefully you see this sometime soon.

I was messing with an amp circuit that I was trying to get close to the Mesa MKI. That early Mesa used those fetrons with a few component changes. So basically, just wanted to hear the difference.

But I do have one fetron stashed away. It came in one of my old Mitchell amps. I know that the amp lost quite a bit of gain when I swapped a 12AX7 in its place.


----------



## RiverRatt

No problem man, I saw mention of a fetron somewhere recently and remembered your post.

I'm playing around with octal pentode preamp tubes and gain. I've done some experimenting with 6SJ7's in a clone of the Stromberg-Carlson AU-29 PA amp that RiffRaff is making sound so good, but that thick, creamy overdrive is elusive.

I'm wanting to get a 20 watt SE output transformer and build a simple Princeton 5C1 style amp with a 6550 or KT88, and using it as a pedal platform. I built one with a metal can 6L6 for the guitarist in my son-in-law's band and he loves it. He has a nice Boss multi-effects unit and mic's the amp. He's even used it at a couple of gigs - he says he likes it better than his Peavey Classic 50.

I recorded a clip of him trying out the AU-29 clone with my Ralston tele build. It's clean tone is really close to the 5C1.


----------



## RickyLee

RiverRatt said:


> No problem man, I saw mention of a fetron somewhere recently and remembered your post.
> 
> I'm playing around with octal pentode preamp tubes and gain. I've done some experimenting with 6SJ7's in a clone of the Stromberg-Carlson AU-29 PA amp that RiffRaff is making sound so good, but that thick, creamy overdrive is elusive.
> 
> I'm wanting to get a 20 watt SE output transformer and build a simple Princeton 5C1 style amp with a 6550 or KT88, and using it as a pedal platform. I built one with a metal can 6L6 for the guitarist in my son-in-law's band and he loves it. He has a nice Boss multi-effects unit and mic's the amp. He's even used it at a couple of gigs - he says he likes it better than his Peavey Classic 50.
> 
> I recorded a clip of him trying out the AU-29 clone with my Ralston tele build. It's clean tone is really close to the 5C1.




Dam that River that sounds sweet. You need to build me one of those as well LOL.


----------



## joshuaaewallen

Anyone in the market for some preamp tubes? Check it out:

Preamp Tubes New, Used, AND Vintage

Have a look, lemme know if you want one, several, or all, or just have a question, shoot me a message or gimme a call. Thanks ya'll, and Rock On.


----------



## Anthony King

What you could do is get a power soak of some sort (I have a THD Power Soak) and use that to get the sound you want at a higher volume and just lower the volume on the THD. I don't know if I would mess with the tubes with the fear of losing that great clean tone.


----------



## RiverRatt

Actually I picked up a Panama 1X12 cab used at Guitar Center a couple of months ago that has a built-in attenuator. It's only good for around 60 watts IIRC but I don't see myself building anything remotely close to that. It sounds really sweet, even turned down to apartment volume. 

I took it to band practice Friday night with a little Champ head I built with a 6CM6 output tube and a couple of mods to boost the gain and OMFG! It sounded amazing.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sorry to resurrect this beast of a thread, but I just got a DSL40CR and have been trying what’s left of my preamp tube selection in it. 

So far, the old formula of a Mullard in V1 and a Raytheon black plate in V2 seems like a killer combination. I’ve never been a big fan of the frame grid JJ ECC83 that Marshall is using. The gain on the Ultra 2 channel is especially smooth. 

So, I’d anybody still rolling preamp tubes on here? I don’t know if any of the old crowd is still here, but I’d like to get back into doing some tube rolling and maybe even some trading. Anybody?


----------



## mickeydg5

Its good to read from you again. People are rolling but posting their own threads. With a kingpin here, as yourself, people will get involved in this thread more once again.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks man, good to hear from you as well. Kingpin? My kids said I looked like him LOL!


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> Thanks man, good to hear from you as well. Kingpin? My kids said I looked like him LOL!


Dude, I did not mean the fictional character but an actual kingpin. You are a Kingpin of Tubes. Own it.


----------



## johnfv

Holy Crap! Alan is here??? We're not worthy!!!


----------



## Dogs of Doom

In the not too far future, I'm going to be working on a local connection.

https://www.tubeboutique.com

the guy is selling out of his house & lives a few miles from me. I travel within blocks of his house 1-2 x's week, when I go visit my Dad...

I stumbled on the UK site a couple years back. They also had a store, w/ NOS tubes as well, but, they closed that part of the site down.

They sell (some) SED, & NOS:





http://www.pmcomponents.co.uk

If you click on the link here:




it shows their tubes. They are claiming to make a Brimar copy:

ECC83T "Trustworthy":











Also, speaking of Brimar, they are back in business. Currently rebranding tubes mfgr'd to their spec's, but working on making great British tubes again.

https://brimaruk.com

the project:

https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/great-british-valve-project-2/

so, they are something to keep an eye on & support in the meanwhile, if you think their endeavors are worthwhile...


----------



## RiverRatt

Didn’t Marty have some PM tubes he was passing around back when he was still posting here? The name is very familiar.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

I'm not sure. I know they've been discussed some. I remember Marty doing a JJ/Telefunken test & was talking about those Northern Electric (Canada) tubes, but, the NE ended up being Chinese, IIRC.


----------



## mickeydg5

Marty is missed as well. Another kingpin.


----------



## solarburn

I like the AC7HG+ in V1.

Also the JJ 83MG is very Mullard like and CP.

I used a 12AY7 in V1 and actually enjoyed new textures and dynamics. Others may pass and that's fine. Fun to mix the pre's. 

What PT's are in it Alan?


----------



## RiverRatt

I read that they are JJ’s but I didn’t pull one and look at it. The side facing out is blank. Next time I’m in there I’m gonna check and see. 

I got my caddy out and started testing tubes and checking out what I had. I found an old 1959 Matsushita long plate. If they used Mullard type codes it would be an mC1. I’ve used those before in V1 and they are really good. Found a couple of Sylvanias that test ridiculously good too. I’ll try those in V3 and V4.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I read that they are JJ’s but I didn’t pull one and look at it. The side facing out is blank. Next time I’m in there I’m gonna check and see.
> 
> I got my caddy out and started testing tubes and checking out what I had. I found an old 1959 Matsushita long plate. If they used Mullard type codes it would be an mC1. I’ve used those before in V1 and they are really good. Found a couple of Sylvanias that test ridiculously good too. I’ll try those in V3 and V4.



We've found some great combos. In the new DSL' s more and more I'm finding CP to do well. Course it depends on how the amp circuit reacts. The newer versions I find ANOS less friendly. Newer versions. Which money wise is cost effective. Never turn my nose at a great tube tuning though.


----------



## solarburn

I almost find the 83MG RFT like. Meaty!


----------



## RiverRatt

So far it seems to be responding like my old DSL50, but this is my first roll. I’m looking forward to playing around with it.


----------



## RiverRatt

83MG?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> 83MG?



JJ ECC83MG. Really the only one out of their ECC83 tubes I've found good in my ear. Only in V1. Meaty in the mids. And I love meaty Marshall mids.


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> So far it seems to be responding like my old DSL50, but this is my first roll. I’m looking forward to playing around with it.



I agree. V1&V2 set the template.


----------



## RiverRatt

Thanks man, I’ll have to try one of those.


----------



## Jethro Rocker

I have an RFT in V2 in some of my amps, no DSL. I should try the Raytheon I have a couple of those in PI slots.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don’t know what it is about a Raytheon black plate, but they are magic in V2, at least in the DSL. Marty used them in a lot of other Marshall amps with good results too.


----------



## SkyMonkey

This thread is piggin' massive!

I am sure the answer I want is in here somewhere, but there is no way I can trawl the whole thing for it!

So, can someone please point out to a numpty where each preamp tube is in a DSL40CR. 

i.e. Looking from the back of the amp, with the back off, from left to right, which is V1, V2, V3 & V4?

Appreciated in advance!


----------



## RiverRatt

V1 is farthest to the right with a shield over it. The rest follow in order to the left.


----------



## SkyMonkey

Cheers RiverRatt.


----------



## RiverRatt

solarburnDSL50 said:


> What PT's are in it Alan?



They are indeed JJ EL34's, nothing special, but I'm happy with the tone.


----------



## solarburn

Tone is such a woose.


----------



## RiverRatt

I went through my caddy and tested all my 12AX7's. I found a few gems that I wasn't expecting. I put that old 1959 Matsushita long plate in V1, left the Raytheon in V2, used a nice Sylvania in V3, and put the hottest tube I found in V4. It was another Sylvania that tested ridiculously high. I like a hot PI tube.


----------



## mickeydg5

Is a hot PI better than a lopsided PI? I think so but maybe not everyone.


----------



## RiverRatt

I hear a bigger difference with a hot PI tube. I'd describe the sound as more warm and punchy. YMMV.


----------



## mickeydg5

And it will provide more harmonic distortion when cranked.


----------



## RiverRatt

I don't really have anything new, just trying to keep the thread alive. I'm still happy with the combination I'm running now. I was thinking today that I'd like to have a nice Tungsram to try in V1. Just how thick can you get the mids? That tube might be the answer.


----------



## mickeydg5

Tung s ram. It sounds like something a women would like. Midrange moan. That could be a good instrumental title.


----------



## RiverRatt

LOL yeah, women do. I read that Lita Ford uses them in her Marshalls. I think Terry Kilgore dropped that nugget on TGP years ago.


----------



## RiverRatt

You may have just stumbled onto the secret of "woman tone".


----------



## mickeydg5

Dude I have them and so much more in my stash but have never gotten around to trying/testing them.
I have so much to do before I set up my laboratory.


----------



## RiverRatt

I had one in my stash and it cracked while it was in an amp. They're not doing you any good if you don't use 'em though. Pissed me off cuz I had ordered it from eBay at retail price, which I don't normally do. It's like trophy hunting in a wildlife preserve.


----------



## mickeydg5

I moved recently and a lot of things are packed. Like I mentioned, I have to setup my laboratory. I will happen in due time.


----------



## RiverRatt

I'm going to have to leave the back off my amp if I'm going to really experiment, and then there's the question of what that would do to the tone. I might remove the screen from the oval in the back and see if I can manage that way. The combo has the preamp tubes all the way towards the front. Tube rolling was so much easier with the head.


----------



## Bownse

I installed dzus fasteners. Once there, search on dzus.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#


----------



## RiverRatt

Cool! How did you install the nuts?


----------



## solarburn

RiverRatt said:


> I'm going to have to leave the back off my amp if I'm going to really experiment, and then there's the question of what that would do to the tone. I might remove the screen from the oval in the back and see if I can manage that way. The combo has the preamp tubes all the way towards the front. Tube rolling was so much easier with the head.



I use one screw to close the back. Works fine no fussing. Great for rolling.


----------



## Bownse

RiverRatt said:


> Cool! How did you install the nuts?



I created a stress relief because of the crap particle board construction. Pretty much fender washers epoxied to the inside, then the back of the fastener epoxied to it.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

New Sensor?




(after I posted, I noticed that the tube is from 1960s, must be Old Sensor) ...

I didn't know that 6N2P were 12AX7/ECC83 tubes.

I've run across that site before:

http://rutubes.com/

& have seen those cheap tubes. That's one of their premium tubes at under $5...

They have quite a list of Russian mfgr's in the pull down menu.




Now days, I'm seeing $20/tube for CP at a lot of places. You can almost buy 16 tubes for that here...


----------



## RiverRatt

Order a handful and post the results. I’m curious too.


----------



## RiverRatt

Dogs of Doom said:


> I didn't know that 6N2P were 12AX7/ECC83 tubes.



Be aware too that these are 6.3v series filament tubes - no center tap on pin 9. You’d either have to rewire the tube sockets or buy an adapter to use them. 

I have a couple of homemade amps that would be easy to fit for these tubes. I think I even had a few of them once upon a time. I got them in with a bunch of other tubes and forgot about them.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got a couple of Tungsram and a Raytheon black plate coming in. I got them for a steal so I’m hoping they test strong.


----------



## Jethro Rocker

I have a few Raytheon BPs. I usually run them in the PI spot.


----------



## RiverRatt

That’s exactly what I had in mind. Tungsram in V1, Raytheon black plate in V2 and V4, Sylvania in V3. The DSL is gonna be rockin!


----------



## RiverRatt

Wow, I just bought an old Sherwood S-4000 amp today. Opened it up and found a long plate Mullard, a long plate Amperex Bugle Boy, and a Telefunken ribbed plate, all in pristine condition. Icing on the cake was an RCA 7199. 

The amp also had a pair of Bugle Boy EL84’s and an EZ81. Best $30 I’ve spent in a while.


----------



## RiverRatt

This is two firsts for me, a long-plate Bugle Boy and a Mullard type code I've never seen. The Mullard is a f9, which is listed as a low-microphony ECC83. FWIW, the Bugle Boy is a mC, same as the Mullard long plate ECC83's I've had.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is definitely a nice little haul.


----------



## RiverRatt

Yep. I also bought a Knight stereo amp for $10 that had 3 12AX7’s, a pair of 5881’s and a 5U4. Nothing great in it though. I got an I63 Mullard. The 5881’s look cooked but you never know until you test them.


----------



## mickeydg5

The I63 is worth the $10 alone, providing it test good. Test them out.


----------



## RiverRatt

Got another first... a 12AD7.


----------



## mickeydg5

That is a great find. A 12AD7 is a nice preamp audio tube with low microphonics and hum. It operates just like 12AX7/6681/7025.
I hope it test and operates good.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

When I run a 12BH7A vs an ECC82, I seem to get more headroom, sort of like running 6550 vs EL34.

Would running a 12AD7, work similarly?

Interestingly, these tubes draw more current. Would that mean that they are being starved? (fed less current than required)

I would think that starving a tube would result in less headroom.

Or, does the stage, in circuit, supply ample current & you just hear the difference between running a higher current tube?

Would this make this tube ideal for a PI?

One of my things, I have, w/ high gain amp's, is the slamming of the PI, where everything bottlenecks & you get an unnatural compression distortion at that stage. I'd rather have a bit more headroom on the PI & a hotter signal pushing the power glass.


----------



## mickeydg5

12AD7 has amplification factor of 100 and is like a 12AX7 type. The plate resistances are much higher therefore current is much lower.
12BH7 and ECC82 have amplification factors of about 17 being more like the 12AU7. The plate resistances are much lower therefore current is much higher.
The 12BH7 has a lower average plate resistance than the 12AU7/ECC82 and it has a higher average transconductance. It is a similar case comparing the 6550 versus 6CA7/EL34.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

So, it's on the plate. These data sheets (Sylvania) show identical plate spec's. So, that's what you'd look at?

12AX7:



12AD7:



https://drtube.com/datasheets/12ax7-sylvania1955.pdf
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/137/1/12AD7.pdf

I'm guessing capacitance plays into the signal throughput?

& the heaters take the draw. 

I'm trying to figure this out...


----------



## mickeydg5

Those charts do show typical operation and is also used for testing data. Notice the operation and values are basically the same at the given voltages.

There is a little capacitance in all components. I would not worry about that with your tube choices. They are basically the same values.

The filament/heaters in these tubes provide indirect heating for bringing the cathode to temperature for operation.


----------



## RiverRatt

When I had my JMP-1C it used a 12AU7/ECC82 stock as the output tube. It could use any of the 12A*7 family as an output tube, or a 12BH7A. If I remember correctly, the output power almost doubled when using the BH7.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

yeah, I was using it (BH7A) in my JVM-1, & tried it both in the power section & the cathode follower. Both gave it more headroom & sounded bigger. I think I tried both too, but I don't think it sounded so good. I also swapped the cathode follower for an AX7 & it sounded straight up metal, but, the amp lost it's character. The JVM has a super charged harmonic structure. When I added the AX7, it became more like a DSL. I tried the AX7 in the power section, but it didn't work, the sound kept cutting out, like on/off/on/off a couple x's a second.

I think Mickey was ½ joking that, when I put the BH7A in the power, it was now a JVM-2...

In the my SVTs, they use BH7 in the dual PI (cathodyne) section. Gives a unique growl to the 6550s...


----------



## mickeydg5

Yes, the 12BH7 provides more current and transconductnce at a given voltage set than does the 12AU7.
So you were basically almost doubling the power.


----------



## Bownse

So...

[don't point and laugh - i'm wrapping my head around this]

More current = more power = more headroom or quicker distortion (clipping)?


----------



## mickeydg5

Bownse said:


> So...
> 
> [don't point and laugh - i'm wrapping my head around this]
> 
> More current = more power = more headroom or quicker distortion (clipping)?


Understand, it is more headroom at a specific power.
Remember or understand that power is the product of current and voltage.
Distortion sets in when limits are reached for the components in a circuit/system.


----------



## Bownse

Thanks. That's what I was thinking. Glad I remembered my lessons properly.


----------



## StingRay85

Such a big thread. No action lately. Time to dig this one up. I just opened up an old Dynacord Bass King 1, and this amp was packing Telefunken ECC83(2x), ECC81, and ECC808, besides 2x Pope Xf2 B9XX tubes. I saw one example of a 2204 with a ECC808, super nicely done. Is it worth the upgrade for V1 of a 2204 style preamp?


----------



## RiverRatt

I’ve tried to get it going a few times but nobody is doing much tube swapping and comparisons. The ECC808 you have isn’t compatible with your amp. It has a different pinout than a 12AX7/ECC83. Now those Mullard xf2 EL34’s and Telefunken ECC83’s are a great find. If they test good they should sound great in your 2204. How about a pic?


----------



## StingRay85

I have to rewire V1, but that's not a big deal. Its a 2204 preamp that I built into a Sound City amp. I need to open it up anyway to add spring holders for the 6xEL34. I also use it for bass but at moderate volume I hear rattling glass. If it's the microphonics that is sometimes describes, I need to swap tubes until it's gone.

I went through some of my amps and stash. I have more than 20 Mullard Xf2,Xf3,Xf4 blackburn valves. Around 10 RFT EL34. Preamp a few Philips, Tronal, Brimar, RCA 7025, Mazda (including a '62 silver plate), Telefunken, 1 Mullard.


----------



## StingRay85

1 ECC81 (for PI), 4x ECC83 smooth plates diamond bottom and then the ECC808s.


----------



## RiverRatt

That’s a hell of a collection. I don’t think I’ve had more than a quad of xf anythings at the same time.


----------



## RiverRatt

Right now I’m trying to bring a Gibson GA-77RVT back to top condition. It uses all 6EU7’s in the preamp and I didn’t have any. It came loaded with RCA short plates; the ones with the flat sided micas. Two tested good, the other two were weak but usable. 

I bought a couple of Sylvania long plate Sylvanias and just like their 12AX7s it blew thee needle off the scale. Turns out that the amp doesn’t like the Sylvanias. The RCA’s were way more warm and round sounding. 

I’m waiting on a part to fix the tremolo on the amp and it should be sounding right. It has a 15” JBL speaker in it. Way different than anything I’m used to. It reminds me of a Fender Twin.


----------



## mickeydg5

Oh them 15" JBL are nice in their own way.


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## StingRay85

I got two E130-8s sitting in a big Acoustic cabinet. 

I'm gassing on a maximatcher maxipreamp ii, but damn those are expensive. I guess it's the only way to really find out if the preamp valves are any good or not.


----------



## RiverRatt

I’ve used several different testers. My favorite was a TV-7. I did fine with it and auditioning the tubes in my amp. I’m using a Hickok 800 now since the TV-7 took a shit on me. It was my backup tester.


----------



## StingRay85

Have you ever considered ECC82 in the phase inverter? As a way to replace an attenuator without the tone suck


----------



## RiverRatt

I think we’ve experimented with just about every tube in every position. What amp are you using? I remember trying a 12AU7 as a phase inverter in my old DSL50 and it doesn’t so much attenuate as neuter. I’d try a volume control in the FX loop instead.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> I think we’ve experimented with just about every tube in every position. What amp are you using? I remember trying a 12AU7 as a phase inverter in my old DSL50 and it doesn’t so much attenuate as neuter. I’d try a volume control in the FX loop instead.


what can you do inbetween the PI & power tubes to make it so the power tubes are cooking either before, or along w/ the PI, rather than the PI getting all distorted & compressing before the power tubes are heated up?


----------



## RiverRatt

What amp are you using? A post-PI master volume might get you what you’re looking for.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

RiverRatt said:


> What amp are you using? A post-PI master volume might get you what you’re looking for.


I'm not looking for it, for any amp inparticular. I just notice that a lot of amp's like the DSL, etc., bottleneck everything into the PI & the breakup on that drowns out the power tubes.

A buddy of mine has a fire breathing JMP modified. The guy who modded it, supposedly put something inbetween there to boost the power tubes. So, while his amp has more distortion than almost any other Marshall, it still has dynamics, w/o everything sounding bottlenecked/choked at the PI...

He's very finnicky about anyone touching his amp, so, it's almost impossible to get a look at what is done...


----------



## Dogs of Doom

wouldn't a post PI, MV attenuate the signal after the PI?


----------



## RiverRatt

Dogs of Doom said:


> wouldn't a post PI, MV attenuate the signal after the PI?



Yeah, it would. I wasn't thinking right . On a DSL, you're gonna be very limited in what you can do. I'm not up on mods but a JMP would offer up a lot of opportunities for tweaking the circuit. I don't really see the PI as a bottleneck, but it is part of the overall sound of the amp. I've always gone the opposite way and picked the hottest Sylvania I have for the PI. Some of the long plate Sylvanias test as much as 125% above new. I'm doing the same in my old Gibson amp. Give it a try sometime, I think it really opens the amp up.


----------



## StingRay85

What about a Telefunken ECC801s for PI? Will it help pushing the power tubes a bit harder?


----------



## RiverRatt

Quite a bit more than a 12AU7 but still well under an ECC83. Honestly, the best advice I can give you is just try it and see if you are happy with the results. It won’t hurt anything as long as you stay in the 12A_7 family. The circuit was designed for a 12AX7 and IMHO it’s the best to use if you want to really drive the output tubes.

If you’ve read any of this thread, you should know that experimentation was the unspoken rule. As long as you do it safely for both you and your amp, it can be a lot of fun. If you aren’t sure if a tube is compatible, ask here first.


----------



## Sg-ocaster

Goodness!!! 870 pages??? That's more pages than preamp tubes of all types of all brands ever.........btw mc1 mullard ecc83 deserves 2 pages.....but still...lmao


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## StingRay85

Many people will probably find it addicting to collect and try all different kinds of preamp tubes. I even made a full inventory of what I have laying around for future projects.


----------



## Bownse

I'm having my Leak power and pre-amps refurbed. 1950's tube stereo stuff. Very nice sounding. The shop says the amp was refurbed already (like the seller claimed) but my tube issues (dead channel, swap tube, dead again within about an hour) are in the pre-amp. They're doing a complete refurb of that as we speak.

All of that to say, tube inventory... you betcha.

A lot of the things I learned to support my Marshall (and the Fender Bassmaster 100) have gone a long way in supporting the analog stereo too.

Preamp (mine's like in the first image)

http://44bx.com/leak/VarislopeStereo.html

Amp

https://zstereo.co.uk/2017/01/30/leak-stereo-60/


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## StingRay85

Picked up a Geloso PA amp for next to nothing. Surprisingly it had a Philips ECC83 mCN DeltaD tube in V2. Is that the holy grail ECC83?


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## RiverRatt

It could be. If it tests good and isn’t microphonic it should bring a few bucks. I’m using an Amperex mC1 in V1 of my Marshall.


----------



## Dogs of Doom

StingRay85 said:


> Picked up a Geloso PA amp for next to nothing. Surprisingly it had a Philips ECC83 mCN DeltaD tube in V2. Is that the holy grail ECC83?


Philips are generally nice, well made tubes. Got a picture?


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## StingRay85

Dogs of Doom said:


> Philips are generally nice, well made tubes. Got a picture?






By coincidence I had bought a mC2 Mullard last week (without testing), and just by shaking it I hear it rattle against the glass. That's probably worthless :-(

But this mCN looks pristine.


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## RiverRatt

Beautiful. You don’t see many that old with the print in such good condition. The real question: how does she sound?


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## StingRay85

When I tested the amp with a bass it had beautiful mids. PI and V1 were also Philips, and then 3 blackburn Xf3/Xf4 and a Tesla. Separate bias for each tube, that's pretty cool 

This kind of valves are just too collectable and valuable for me to mess around with. Maybe it'll go into an amp that's only made and used to record. Long plates seem to be good as cathode followers, but it's a demanding spot for an expensive tube like that


----------



## IOSEPHVS

I really like the new Mullard CV4004s in place of 12AX7s. I bought a matched and balanced set of four from The Tube Store.


----------



## RiverRatt

StingRay85 said:


> When I tested the amp with a bass it had beautiful mids. PI and V1 were also Philips, and then 3 blackburn Xf3/Xf4 and a Tesla. Separate bias for each tube, that's pretty cool
> 
> This kind of valves are just too collectable and valuable for me to mess around with. Maybe it'll go into an amp that's only made and used to record. Long plates seem to be good as cathode followers, but it's a demanding spot for an expensive tube like that



I’ve always been just the opposite. If a tube tests really strong I don’t hesitate in using it. 

We pretty much came to a consensus here that although the old long plate Sylvanias usually test better than new, they aren’t a particularly toneful tube. However, they last a long time as a cathode follower. 

Nice line-up by the way. What amp are they in? You probably mentioned it earlier but my memory isn’t what it used to be.


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## StingRay85

RiverRatt said:


> I’ve always been just the opposite. If a tube tests really strong I don’t hesitate in using it.
> 
> We pretty much came to a consensus here that although the old long plate Sylvanias usually test better than new, they aren’t a particularly toneful tube. However, they last a long time as a cathode follower.
> 
> Nice line-up by the way. What amp are they in? You probably mentioned it earlier but my memory isn’t what it used to be.



A modified Geloso. But I got into building amps lately and for some reason I like the Sound City 120 mark iv as power amp platform. I build a 2204 pre already, now a 1992 is up next, maybe going for 47nF caps instead of 22. I should probably talk less and work more.

Anyways a good tip for everyone, late 50s Philips reel to reel recorders if you're looking for long plates ;-)

Early 60s for I63 I65 short plates and boards packed with 400V mustard caps


----------



## johnny q

IOSEPHVS said:


> I really like the new Mullard CV4004s in place of 12AX7s. I bought a matched and balanced set of four from The Tube Store.


Just the guy I need to talk to!  Would you be so kind as to describe the differences you perceived between the current production Mullard 12AX7s and the CV4004s? I have the 12AX7s in V1 of two of my amps and like them a lot. One of them was ordered as a high gain and it is 115/115!


----------



## IOSEPHVS

johnny q said:


> Just the guy I need to talk to!  Would you be so kind as to describe the differences you perceived between the current production Mullard 12AX7s and the CV4004s? I have the 12AX7s in V1 of two of my amps and like them a lot. One of them was ordered as a high gain and it is 115/115!



I do have a CP Mullard 12AX7 that I bought for another amp, and can test and swap out in V1. I'm not home right now, so I'll have to get back to you later this evening.


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## johnny q

IOSEPHVS said:


> I do have a CP Mullard 12AX7 that I bought for another amp, and can test and swap out in V1. I'm not home right now, so I'll have to get back to you later this evening.


Thanks! No rush though. Let us know what you think


----------



## RiverRatt

StingRay85 said:


> A modified Geloso. But I got into building amps lately and for some reason I like the Sound City 120 mark iv as power amp platform. I build a 2204 pre already, now a 1992 is up next, maybe going for 47nF caps instead of 22. I should probably talk less and work more.
> 
> Anyways a good tip for everyone, late 50s Philips reel to reel recorders if you're looking for long plates ;-)
> 
> Early 60s for I63 I65 short plates and boards packed with 400V mustard caps



Another thing to look for is film projectors. I got a nice PP 6973 amp out of a Bell & Howell. I also scored a 1959 Jenen P12R from a B&H extension cabinet. Old test equipment is worth looking into as well. I found the best Mullard mC1 I've ever seen from just a random piece of equipment. I swear I've developed some sort of tube radar that goes off when I'm close. I found an Ampeg B18N fliptop chassis just a couple of days ago. It was in the attic of the local mom & pop music store. Don't know why i asked to go up and look again. I've already hauled two Silvertone 1483's and a Bogen PA amp out of there. I just felt like something was still there.


----------



## IOSEPHVS

johnny q said:


> Thanks! No rush though. Let us know what you think






So, I got to play around with this for awhile. The JCM600 uses four preamp tubes (V1-V4) and two power tubes. V4 is the phase inverter so technically part of the power section. But anyway, like I mentioned earlier, I bought a quad set of CV4004s for the Marshall, and a 12AX7 for my little Crate practice amp. I bought the four matched and balanced, so for the most part (not accounting for microphonics, etc.) it wouldn't matter which tube went where.

Now, back to the "experiment." Amp settings:

Clean channel: Volume 5/10, Bass 5/10 (0 dB), Mid 5/10, Treble 5/10
Overdrive channel: Gain 1/20, Volume 3/10, Bass 5/10, Mid 5/10, Treble 5/10
Master Volume: 7.5/10
Presence: 5/10

Dynamic Mutual Conductance (DMC) test:

On a Mercury Model 1000 tester, the four CV-4004s tested right around 1,200 micromhos for both electrode sets on all tubes. The specification is 1,000 micromhos. I have the exact numbers written down here, and they are close enough to be sold as a matched and balanced set. The 12AX7 tested 1,050 on electrode set 1 and 1,010 on set 2. I consider this tube to be balanced even though I ordered a regular 12AX7 so maybe paying the extra money for that might be a gamble. Again, the specification is 1,000. Both tube types have an amplification factor of 100. The original Mullard CV4004 was the direct equivalent of the M8137, and a special quality version of the ECC83, the direct equivalent of the 12AX7. You can research that information and decide for yourself what weight it carries in regard to CP "reissue" Mullard tubes.

With the CV4004s already installed, I plugged the Parker straight into the amp. With the above amp settings, the Clean channel is loud, clear, tight, and punchy. The Overdrive channel sounds really good, just like a JCM should. I don't know how else to explain it. I should probably mention again that the Gain is only set to 1/20 and that what I'm after here is power tube distortion. I played for awhile to try to get a sense of what I was trying to objectively achieve. I swapped out the CV4004 for the 12AX7 in V1. At first, I thought that it pretty much sounded the same. I went back to the CV, and then I noticed it sounded what I will call "better." I put the 12 back in and that's when I had it figured out. Then, I played around with the 12AX7 in V2 and V3, and yep the CV4004 is what I prefer.

Conclusion:

The CV4004s read about 20% stronger on the DMC test. Both tubes are close in tone and timbre. It seems (I know) that the CV makes the amp a little louder and fuller sounding, just enough to where it is noticeable. It's not a bad tube, but it's like the 12 wants to be what the CV is but it just quite isn't, if that makes sense. I hope that helps. Now, I have to go put my amp back together.


----------



## Bownse

I let Mom's old RCA Victrola (AM/78RPM Record player) get away before thinking to look at the tubes inside it.


----------



## johnny q

IOSEPHVS said:


> View attachment 75614
> 
> 
> So, I got to play around with this for awhile. The JCM600 uses four preamp tubes (V1-V4) and two power tubes. V4 is the phase inverter so technically part of the power section. But anyway, like I mentioned earlier, I bought a quad set of CV4004s for the Marshall, and a 12AX7 for my little Crate practice amp. I bought the four matched and balanced, so for the most part (not accounting for microphonics, etc.) it wouldn't matter which tube went where.
> 
> Now, back to the "experiment." Amp settings:
> 
> Clean channel: Volume 5/10, Bass 5/10 (0 dB), Mid 5/10, Treble 5/10
> Overdrive channel: Gain 1/20, Volume 3/10, Bass 5/10, Mid 5/10, Treble 5/10
> Master Volume: 7.5/10
> Presence: 5/10
> 
> Dynamic Mutual Conductance (DMC) test:
> 
> On a Mercury Model 1000 tester, the four CV-4004s tested right around 1,200 micromhos for both electrode sets on all tubes. The specification is 1,000 micromhos. I have the exact numbers written down here, and they are close enough to be sold as a matched and balanced set. The 12AX7 tested 1,050 on electrode set 1 and 1,010 on set 2. I consider this tube to be balanced even though I ordered a regular 12AX7 so maybe paying the extra money for that might be a gamble. Again, the specification is 1,000. Both tube types have an amplification factor of 100. The original Mullard CV4004 was the direct equivalent of the M8137, and a special quality version of the ECC83, the direct equivalent of the 12AX7. You can research that information and decide for yourself what weight it carries in regard to CP "reissue" Mullard tubes.
> 
> With the CV4004s already installed, I plugged the Parker straight into the amp. With the above amp settings, the Clean channel is loud, clear, tight, and punchy. The Overdrive channel sounds really good, just like a JCM should. I don't know how else to explain it. I should probably mention again that the Gain is only set to 1/20 and that what I'm after here is power tube distortion. I played for awhile to try to get a sense of what I was trying to objectively achieve. I swapped out the CV4004 for the 12AX7 in V1. At first, I thought that it pretty much sounded the same. I went back to the CV, and then I noticed it sounded what I will call "better." I put the 12 back in and that's when I had it figured out. Then, I played around with the 12AX7 in V2 and V3, and yep the CV4004 is what I prefer.
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> The CV4004s read about 20% stronger on the DMC test. Both tubes are close in tone and timbre. It seems (I know) that the CV makes the amp a little louder and fuller sounding, just enough to where it is noticeable. It's not a bad tube, but it's like the 12 wants to be what the CV is but it just quite isn't, if that makes sense. I hope that helps. Now, I have to go put my amp back together.


Wow! Great summary, thanks for doing this! I need to order me some CV4004s.


----------



## Sg-ocaster

Thoughts on Ei ecc83s.......got a pre war one other day and........
Meh......was ok but so so.


----------



## IOSEPHVS

johnny q said:


> Wow! Great summary, thanks for doing this! I need to order me some CV4004s.



I don't think you will be disappointed. I didn't mention how quiet the CV4004s are with no signal. I ordered mine from The Tube Store, my go to place. They have excellent customer service, and one of only a few places I have found that advertises matched and balanced preamp tubes if that interests you.


----------



## Sg-ocaster

Are the cv4004s durable enough for cathode followers and PI spots?? I know the ri tungsol 12ax7 had issues in those spots....atleast at one point they did maybe they have fixed this by now....but this is like a sister tube from mother Russia.


----------



## RiverRatt

Sg-ocaster said:


> Thoughts on Ei ecc83s.......got a pre war one other day and........
> Meh......was ok but so so.



That pretty much covers my experience with them. Occasionally I’ll run across one that sounds good in V1. There’s not a lot of consistency from one tube to the next. I’ve actually found some from the early ‘60s that were labeled Telefunken. They didn’t quite live up to my expectations.


----------



## mickeydg5

RiverRatt said:


> That pretty much covers my experience with them. Occasionally I’ll run across one that sounds good in V1. There’s not a lot of consistency from one tube to the next. I’ve actually found some from the early ‘60s that were labeled Telefunken. They didn’t quite live up to my expectations.


Same experience on into the later years. Ok if good but nothing special. Just watch the do not shatter (crack) and go ghostly white. I had that happen before.


----------



## avspecialist

I recently did a preamp swap for my Marshall JVM410H. I have had the amp for about 11 years now, it’s a 2007 and bought it used in 2009, but it was serviced by a Guitar Center tech I know very well. It came with 4 JJ el34 and a mix of white labeled Marshall tubes and some red label JJ tubes. Being my first Marshall, initially thought is was great, especially with the 12 preamp modes. I mostly play at home and once in a while I’ll play out for a night. Anyway I decided to roll the preamp tubes and read through the JVM forum preamp tube recommendations. I then bought a variety of tubes from The Tube Store, Mojotone and Parts Express. I also have a fair amount of NOS RCA, Telefunken, Sylvania, GE, and some USA Tungsol to name a few. I also bought the Preferred Series from The Tube Store as well as RFT, Mullard 12ax7, Mullard CV4004, Gold Lions, Tungsol, Electro Harmonix and shungwang. Really a lot. Over a period of a year or 2, I kept swapping and came up with a decent mix with the Mullard CV4004 in V1, the Millard 12ax7 in v2, the RFT in v3, Tungsol in V4 and a Preferred Series for the PI. Overall the sound was smooth and reasonably balanced. Fast Forward a year and one day I turned on the amp and it seemed to have lost a lot of the mid bass and lower bass. So I started preamp tube rolling again. Pretty much everything was just slightly different but not really any better. So I had a quad set of Preferred series El 34’s to see if it was the power tubes. But first I checked the bias on the JJ’s using my meter and my Techtronics scope. The bias looked good, a balanced 70mv per side and the waveform looked good on the scope no real crossover notch and a nice sine wave. I upped the bias, listened to the amp and still no real improvement. So I decided to put in the Preferred Series EL 34’s. I started at 70mv which seemed ok, but I ended up at 82 mv at 457 plate voltage. I believe this puts the tubes pretty close to 80%. 

Wow what a difference. The amp had much better extremities from deep base to very smooth treble. I redid the preamp tube roll and after trial and error, I was able to slightly shape the sound to my liking. I ended up with a preferred series in v1, the Mullard 12ax7 for v2, the preferred series n v3, the Tungsol in v4 and balanced Preferred Series for the PI. The amp now sounds the best it has ever been. By the way the cabinet i’m using is an early 80’s plywood 1960a, with 4 Celestion Creamback 65’s. My point is you can tube roll the preamp tubs all you like, but if the power tubes are not up to snuff, you will never realize what you have in the preamp section.


----------



## RiverRatt

Were you using JJ EL34’s or E34L’s? I’ve used both and the E34L was much as you described. The EL34’s were better but still not my cup of tea.


----------



## avspecialist

Hi River Rat, it was the regular JJEL 34, when they were new they seemed fine for the Marshall. I actually think they are still good, they probably have 75 or hours on them. I would say from memory, even when the JJ’s were new they definitely do not match the level of resp9nse of The Preferred Series EL34’s. 

What are you using in your amp?


----------



## RiverRatt

Right now I’m running Groove Tubes EL34M’s in my DSL. I like them. IMO they are closer to a real Mullard xf2 than any other current production tubes. 

Preamp tubes are a long plate Amperex in V1, a Raytheon black plate in V2, a long plate Sylvania in V3 and a Telefunken in V4.

Honestly the DSL40CR doesn’t seem as sensitive to tube rolling as my old DSL50 was. Still, that’s a good sounding mix.


----------



## Sg-ocaster

In my jcm 800 2210 I like shuaguang el34b very nice tubes. Had groove tubes mullard ri el34m be for in other amps liked them too.


----------



## mickeydg5

I am still going to say when it comes to any tube that a good mutual conductance tester will tell you exactly what you have bought.

You can trust any seller you want but at the end of the day a tube that test better on you accustomed tester will prove better in any amplifier.

I would have a go to list of suppliers but in the end I would only trust my testers, myself.


----------



## avspecialist

What is still find fascinating is how much the difference the power tubes made in overall frequency response and how the preamp tubes modified the character. Before the power tube replacement the preamp tube rolling only made slight character changes. Do you think the Power Tubes define the final character of the sound as to the preamp tubes. In the JVM410H case to my surprise it did.


----------



## mickeydg5

In my opinion all of the tubes matter but then again all of everything else matters as well.


----------



## StingRay85

https://medialux.blog/2019/07/16/amperex-bugle-boy-12ax7-long-plates/

This was a nice read on the long plate Mullard mC1, and the long plate Amperex (Philips) bugle boy.

The bugle boy seems to be almost gone. But surprisingly I have no issue finding them in equipment that I can buy for 10-15 euro a piece.


----------



## RiverRatt

StingRay85 said:


> https://medialux.blog/2019/07/16/amperex-bugle-boy-12ax7-long-plates/
> 
> This was a nice read on the long plate Mullard mC1, and the long plate Amperex (Philips) bugle boy.
> 
> The bugle boy seems to be almost gone. But surprisingly I have no issue finding them in equipment that I can buy for 10-15 euro a piece.



That’s the beauty of preamp tubes. Unless they have a LOT of hours on them, just about any pulls will be usable tubes. Sometimes I get a dud, but more often than not they test and sound fine. The only real issue is that the pins are usually oxidized and need a good cleaning, otherwise they can introduce white noise and popping into your sound. 

Occasionally I’ll find one that’s too microphonic to use. I have a beautiful Mullard mC1 that is so microphonic I think it could pick up breathing.


----------



## StingRay85

My Maxi Preamp seems to be finally on its way. Tough times for everyone i'm not complaining. 

Just today when picking up some old resistors from an nice man who used to do 30s-40s radios, this guy was still holding on to some mustard caps, and 3 ECC83. 1 was a Siemens short plate that looked NOS, and two ADZAM long plate 12AX7 mCN delta N And delta M. The flash looked more than ok but the bottom looked a bit dark, as if they got cooked. I really need the tester unit... my fascination for tubes is getting out of control lol.


----------



## StingRay85

By the way the old Philips reel to reel of 1954-1955 had a foam/cloth inside a few mm thick cilinder surrounding the tube. Maybe this helped with microphonics. Towards 57 and on they tightly wrapped the tubes in grounded metal sheets


----------



## RiverRatt

StingRay85 said:


> 1 was a Siemens short plate that looked NOS, and two ADZAM long plate 12AX7 mCN delta N And delta M. The flash looked more than ok but the bottom looked a bit dark, as if they got cooked. I really need the tester unit... my fascination for tubes is getting out of control lol.




I’ve seen Mullard mC1’s with that dark, smoky look. I don’t think it has anything to do with how the tube was used. It’s most likely something to do with how the getter was fired. I’ve seen getter flashes on several old Mullards that were black instead of silver. 

I know exactly what you mean about the fascination with tubes. I have thousands that I’ve gone through several times and I know they are worthless but I just can’t bring myself to get rid of them.


----------



## StingRay85

I saw the same black shine on the bottom of all my telefunken ECC808. So indeed maybe they're good. If that's the case than I'll probably sell em and give a share to the guy where I bought them from


----------



## StingRay85

Anyone can help me identify these tubes? They seem so similar that I assume they.come from the same manufacturer. One is labeled MAZDA other is Tumgsram. I took the Tumgsram from a machine dating between 57 en 59, so my educated guess is that the 8 could stand for 1958. Its a longplate but not the mC code. Rimg getter with one support


----------



## StingRay85

^^ still looking for the answer.

In the meantime another great score.



Ribbed plate Telefunken, mC1 D6 long plate, mC6 delta8, 2x I61 B1 mullards, two I65 Heerlen, old black plate ECC81 Brimar, and two other ECC81


----------



## RiverRatt

My phone is giving me fits trying to zoom in on those two tubes in the post before last, but they are both Ei. I can see the factory code on the one with yellow print.


----------



## StingRay85

RiverRatt said:


> My phone is giving me fits trying to zoom in on those two tubes in the post before last, but they are both Ei. I can see the factory code on the one with yellow print.



Thank you RiverRatt. It means after breaking open at least 20 reel to reel recorders I found the first one that was retubed at some point


----------



## RiverRatt

Not necessarily. They have been around a long time. I just picked up an old one. I can’t wait to try it out.


----------



## mickeydg5

I was thinking the same, smooth plate (but not Telefunken) so EI.


----------



## StingRay85

Thanks. The tungsram labeled one is now V3 in my just finished Hiwatt build. The other ones are blackburn short plates.

My dead count can be more or less estimated from the EF86 I have in a box


----------



## RiverRatt

Don’t let that M word get in your way. That Tungsram, if good and not microphonic, can be one of the best sounding tubes in a Marshall. Only problem is that the newer ones aren’t nearly as good as the old ones. I traded some gear last week and ended up getting rid of my DSL40, now I have an Origin 20 and an amazing strat. I’m running a Tungsram in V1 on it and it sounds really good. The guy I got the Origin from also put a pair of well matched Mullard Xf3 EL34’s in it for me, plus a third Xf3 for a spare. And, that’s where I got the old Ei ECC83 too. I C thought I had a Mullard mC1 when I first saw it.


----------



## StingRay85

Finally FINALLY on Monday the Maxi Preamp II arrives. Hopefully it turns out the long plate Philips tubes I scavenged are still in reasonably good condition.



I think it really jumps out in the test of Mr. Segeborn


----------



## StingRay85

Got my tester at last. Couldn't wait to test the long plate stash I collected. A few disappointments like the ADZAMs from 1954 (paid only 10€ so no big deal) and the mC1 mullard but overall I think they measure quite good.

Any explanation why triode A always measures higher than B?


----------



## StingRay85

*removed these tables*


----------



## mickeydg5

It is weird how your B is usually lower than A, especially transconductance. That seems like an issue with calibrations.


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## StingRay85

mickeydg5 said:


> It is weird how your B is usually lower than A, especially transconductance. That seems like an issue with calibrations.



Yeah I think so too. The only thing I can think of at this moment is that we have a 230V power supply and the equipment is made for 240V. Would we strange that I would have to use a variac to go from 230V to 240V just to do a good measurement. Transconductance for A seems reasonable. I sent a message to the manufacturer. I have a lot invested into this tester it should work perfectly


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## RiverRatt

Is there no line level adjustment?


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## mickeydg5

StingRay85 said:


> Yeah I think so too. The only thing I can think of at this moment is that we have a 230V power supply and the equipment is made for 240V. Would we strange that I would have to use a variac to go from 230V to 240V just to do a good measurement. Transconductance for A seems reasonable. I sent a message to the manufacturer. I have a lot invested into this tester it should work perfectly


Wall voltage is not going to make two test sockets measure different. It is an internal circuit issue which brings one back to calibration of the tester and its circuits.


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## StingRay85

Yeah I had the same idea but you never know... I had another idea. As I have collected a big data set of transconductance measurements, I think it's a fair assumption to say that the sum of all transconductances of A should equal the sum of B. In the end there is no reason why A should statistically be any different from B. This gives me underestimation of 25.75% for the long plates and 23.8% for the short plates. Or a total of 24.6%. Assuming A is correct, I can calculate B by multiplying with 1.246. It makes a lot of assumptions (like A is calibrated correctly) but it's better than nothing at this point.


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## Sg-ocaster

Can you borrow some sort of other transconductance tester even if it's not calibrated....just to see if the B triode is consistently lower than A even on that.......not very likely but there's All ways that chance that they all test lower on triode B.....yea it's a long shot but still


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## StingRay85

I tested another 50 or so valves, including Telefunken, Brimar, RFT, Sylvania and new JJs and all have the same deviation.


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## StingRay85

The tester is back in the US to try to find out what causes the deviation. They have been very supportive and even paid for shipping. I have to admit getting a tube tester only made the GAS for 50s-60s ECC83 worse. Better stack up before the well runs dry I guess.


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## mickeydg5

A's and B's on my tester follow the strength of the circuit. Sometimes A is higher and sometimes B is higher. That can be compared to other tester readings.
I have six mutual conductance testers.


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## StingRay85

Yeah thats the point. On average B measured around 25% lower. On a large amount of samples, the total sum of A should equal the sum of B, which was not the case. Then we checked for wrong values of 1% resistors on the pcb board, but that all looked to be ok. No other option than to send them back.


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## StingRay85

I have 20+ long plate mC Philips tubes and if I want to sell a couple to hifi fanatiscs at the very least I need reliable measurements.


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## Bownse

Once tested, will you be posting a list of available tubes?


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## StingRay85

They won't be cheap you know... 

Looking at Amperex Bugle Boy long plates you won't find any below 100$, good ones probably not below 300$. I can't believe a preamp tube can be worth that money but I wouldn't mind people paying me those numbers lol. I was contemplating sending out samples to MFers to try to find out if they're really as good as people claim they are.


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## Amadeus91

StingRay85 said:


> I have 20+ long plate mC Philips tubes and if I want to sell a couple to hifi fanatiscs at the very least I need reliable measurements.


Here is a pair from my collection, 1956 Hamburg manufacture.
Mullard 1600 from 1954, this type pre dates the Mc1.


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## StingRay85

Also three made in Hamburgs, can be recognized from the nicely fired getter flash(7, 18, 19)


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## J Saw

You guys are finding some nice ax7's. The prices are getting pretty crazy.


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## StingRay85

none of those are NOS though, but most are only slightly used


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## CROWEMAG

I am looking for good modern 12AX7 set up for my 86 2204. I want more dynamics and “crunch”, less stiff if you know what I mean. 

what does everyone recommend for each of the three preamp positions? I am trying to make my way through this entire thread and feel a bit overwhelmed. Hahahaha. Thanks!


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## SkyMonkey

CROWEMAG said:


> I am trying to make my way through this entire thread and feel a bit overwhelmed. Hahahaha. Thanks!


I think this is the longest thread in the whole Marshall Amp Forum!
That can make the relevant information buried in here nigh on impossible to single out.
A new fresh new thread dedicated to preamp tube selection might be the thing, but there are probably hundreds of similar MF threads that have fizzled out after 10 or so posts.
Using the word 'Official' in the title sometimes works to aid thread longevity.
But for now this record breaking monster lumbers on.


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## CROWEMAG

SkyMonkey said:


> I think this is the longest thread in the whole Marshall Amp Forum!
> That can make the relevant information buried in here nigh on impossible to single out.
> A new fresh new thread dedicated to preamp tube selection might be the thing, but there are probably hundreds of similar MF threads that have fizzled out after 10 or so posts.
> Using the word 'Official' in the title sometimes works to aid thread longevity.
> But for now this record breaking monster lumbers on.


Right on! I have tried to search here and have not found what I’m looking for, really. I’ll make my way through this one hoping it’s not all about NOS because as much as I’d like to I’m not paying NOS prices. Hahaha. I want practical, everyday availability. Nice dynamics and crunch. I’ve heard that Chinese tubes are surprisingly good for that but have my doubts.


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## StingRay85

Watch some vids on youtube


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## CROWEMAG

StingRay85 said:


> Watch some vids on youtube


I’ve tied that too and there is maybe one video I’ve seen that sounds good and I can actually tell a difference but that one is all NOS tubes. Hahahaha. Got any good links?


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## StingRay85

CROWEMAG said:


> I’ve tied that too and there is maybe one video I’ve seen that sounds good and I can actually tell a difference but that one is all NOS tubes. Hahahaha. Got any good links?



This one features a couple of the modern options. JJ, TAD (Chinese?), EHX, Ruby, tung sol. You can see how they compare to the old ones


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## Sg-ocaster

CROWEMAG said:


> Right on! I have tried to search here and have not found what I’m looking for, really. I’ll make my way through this one hoping it’s not all about NOS because as much as I’d like to I’m not paying NOS prices. Hahaha. I want practical, everyday availability. Nice dynamics and crunch. I’ve heard that Chinese tubes are surprisingly good for that but have my doubts.


Hit up eBay....buy a few used 12ax7s of vintage stature. Buy from ebayers that test for mutual conductance and look at the chrome flashing for a haloing look aroubd the edge( worn out)stay away....also look for tubes that have a dark ring around the base( worn out) stay away........if you find a tube you want to try that has clear glass....no haloed flashing and tests decent.....and is around new production price snag it.....chances are it should be ok......yea you can run into a microphonic one( especially long plates 17mm)but it's worth a little risk......GE and rca shortplates can be had pretty cheap used and are generally pretty good about microphonic.


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## CROWEMAG

Sg-ocaster said:


> Hit up eBay....buy a few used 12ax7s of vintage stature. Buy from ebayers that test for mutual conductance and look at the chrome flashing for a haloing look aroubd the edge( worn out)stay away....also look for tubes that have a dark ring around the base( worn out) stay away........if you find a tube you want to try that has clear glass....no haloed flashing and tests decent.....and is around new production price snag it.....chances are it should be ok......yea you can run into a microphonic one( especially long plates 17mm)but it's worth a little risk......GE and rca shortplates can be had pretty cheap used and are generally pretty good about microphonic.


Thanks for the advice! I’m going to start looking around on eBay and try my luck.


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## StingRay85

Where do you live @CROWEMAG ?


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## CROWEMAG

StingRay85 said:


> Where do you live @CROWEMAG ?


I live in VA. USA


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## StingRay85

In that case RCA and GE are probably your best options if you don't want to break the bank. RFT tubes are probably the ones you want to try if you want to spend a little more

There seems to be a new pair for 60€ in France on reverb. Would seem like a good deal if they're really new. I would ask for some more pictures of the flash and pins, and ask for measurement values


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## CROWEMAG

StingRay85 said:


> In that case RCA and GE are probably your best options if you don't want to break the bank. RFT tubes are probably the ones you want to try if you want to spend a little more
> 
> There seems to be a new pair for 60€ in France on reverb. Would seem like a good deal if they're really new. I would ask for some more pictures of the flash and pins, and ask for measurement values


Thanks for the tip! I’m on my way! Hahahaha


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## Dogs of Doom

CROWEMAG said:


> Right on! I have tried to search here and have not found what I’m looking for, really. I’ll make my way through this one hoping it’s not all about NOS because as much as I’d like to I’m not paying NOS prices. Hahaha. I want practical, everyday availability. Nice dynamics and crunch. I’ve heard that Chinese tubes are surprisingly good for that but have my doubts.


I have bought plenty of old tubes (used)...

I can't really tell you, if I've bought, but a few actually NOS, but, most of what I bought was used.

The main thing is buying from an honest broker. They are not easy to come by, just looking around on ebay. You have to know who they are.

Generally, an honest broker will tell you, if they are broken in & an estimated usage, say, if they might have 60% life left, or 80%, etc.

TBH, a OS tube w/ 60% life left can outperform a modern CP tube... sometimes...

The main thing is that the broker is selling accordingly. You wouldn't expect to pay NOS (new) prices for a tube that has been used & has a significantly shortened life span. Still though, if a tube is rated for 10,000 hours of use, 60% is still 6,000 hrs of use left. Many new CP tubes can't guarantee that & some people have gotten 30-50K out of old tubes...

New tubes have gone up considerably, in the last few years. Used to be, you could get a 12AX7 for a little more than $10/ea, now, you're looking at $20/ea +/-...

Last time I actually bought an NOS tube, I paid around $12/ea, for Ei branded tubes...




so, don't be afraid to buy NOS, or even UOS (used), as long as the dealer is honest & the prices are according to what the tube actually is...

If someone has a bunch of ratty looking tubes & claim all as NOS, they probably aren't. On the other hand, be careful of people who silkscreen fake labels on tubes to pretend they are NOS.

That's why I say, finding an honest broker is paramount.


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## Sg-ocaster

Also when I find a tube dealer on eBay.....i look over a number of thier tubes be for I buy....
.i make sure thier used tubes have a range of test results.....if EVERY tube they sell test strong....i suspect something......when I see they have a few darker ones with lower results and some clear with high results.....it looks more like they REALLY tested them....ya know.


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## Bownse

Those are why I tend to look a Tube Amp Doctor and such instead of random people on ebay.


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## StingRay85

What would be the point of selling tubes on ebay/reverb if they don't test good?


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## Bownse

StingRay85 said:


> What would be the point of selling tubes on ebay/reverb if they don't test good?



Dollah dolla, yo!


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## yladrd61

If you buy tubes on ebay, make sure they post high quality pictures and test results, also read the feedback from previous transactions, that will tell you a lot about the seller.


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## Dogs of Doom

StingRay85 said:


> What would be the point of selling tubes on ebay/reverb if they don't test good?


people can be swindlers...


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## mickeydg5

If you are going to buy unseen/unheard then you should do your homework.
Know what any tester results mean and do not buy blindly.

If something does not test good or right then do not buy.

Know what your are doing, it any situation.


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## Sg-ocaster

yladrd61 said:


> If you buy tubes on ebay, make sure they post high quality pictures and test results, also read the feedback from previous transactions, that will tell you a lot about the seller.


Yes!! High res pics of the flash and base are a must....and good advice on checking the feedback


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## StingRay85

It sure must be difficult to buy tubes on sites like ebay of reverb, especially if you don't have your own tester to verify the results. The test results depend on resistors that need to be within spec. You could potentially boost the test results of worn tubes by swapping resistors in the tester. Apparently this was also the issue of my Maxi Preamp II. A 1% 10 ohm resistor that only measured a good 7 ohm (I still wonder why they didn't found out this issue during QC and running test samples), which lowered the numbers of triode B with about 25%.

Also, a crackling or microphonic tube will not reveal itself during these tests.

There seems to be an era between late 50s and early 60s where ECC81 and ECC83 were used a lot in audio equipment (sort of a golden era for tube making in Europe), but soon after replaced by transistors. In many cases this equipment was not used a lot, and soon after put aside never to be used again due to being outdated technology. Just like we won't use our Nokia 3210 anymore in the decades to come, even though we still use cellphones. This is how I source ECC83, the vast majority measure very strong.


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## yladrd61

It also helps if you have some type of tube tester to at least verify the tubes test strong, if not then you also have grounds to return them or give bad feedback to warn others.


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## CROWEMAG

I went Chinese. After being told several times they would be great for a tight traditional metal sound. I scored some 9th gen 12AX7B ( high gain) and some 12AX7A tubes from before the Beijing factory was closed. I’m quite pleased straight out of the box! I was always trained that Chinese is not what ya want. I’m ok with Chinese for my purposes it seems. Lol. 
More crunch and dynamics than the Tung Sol reissues I was using. Happy!


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## StingRay85

Another reel to reel bites the dust

mC6 from '58


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## What?

I haven't really been into this rabbit hole yet. What sorts of things should I notice by dropping in an old Mullard into V1 in a plexi clone?


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## StingRay85

Why only as V1?



They're also good for PI and CF.


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## StingRay85

finally Finally FINALLY *FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY *got my Maxi Preamp II back after being stuck in customs for 4 weeks.


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## StingRay85

Quite amazing that based on some simple statistics (and assuming 1 of the channels had a correct read out) it was possible to calculate the error of the second one. So basically this is what I'm reading out right now for my long plates. Basically everything above 1600 is equal or better than the data sheets of Philips claim for transconductance. So double green and balanced gain means A+ tube if they are not microphonic. So surely not everything I find is still good.


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